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Independence for England

Posted on December 16, 2018 by

The great frustration of the current Brexit shambles is that we’re being told there are no viable options. But that isn’t true. This site has already put forward one perfectly workable proposal, and here’s another.

Before the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence, Scotland was told that if they left the UK, they would automatically leave the EU, leaving the rUK as the successor European state.

Scotland, it was said, would be cast out of Europe, immediately and automatically and without negotiation. Brussels agreed with Westminster on this interpretation.

This outcome of independence was said by Westminster sources to be a legal certainty, with no possibility of avoiding the consequences of being bounced out of the EU. The EU could not rescue Scotland and no treaties would exist to do so.

And that leads to a logical conclusion: if England (and perhaps Wales) decided to leave the UK instead of Scotland, leaving Scotland as the successor state in the EU, the same would be true.

Independence for England (and Wales) solves many Brexiter problems at a stroke. What Scotland was threatened with in 2014 – immediate exclusion from the EU – could be achieved with no effort on their part, and without dragging any other UK nations along against their will.

The new unit could leave without any encumbrance, no obligations, no divorce payments and, importantly, no worries about any backstop or lengthy ties to European courts and regulations. We already know that most Leavers, and indeed most English people in general, would be happy with this arrangement.

Northern Ireland would have to choose its own destiny: stay in the “UK” with Scotland, join the New Britain of England and probably Wales (if they wanted it, which isn’t a given), or reuniting with the rest of Ireland. That’d be a pretty interesting referendum, but until such times as one was held NI would still technically be remaining in the UK, which would put the DUP in an intriguing and confusing spot.

We know from polling that Scottish voters could live with a border with New Britain better than Northern Ireland can with Ireland – although of course the UK is currently still insisting that unspecified technical solutions could solve this problem anyway.

(One of the great unspoken truths of the constitutional debate, incidentally, is that the Borders counties would love a new frontier. Oh, they might protest outwardly about the inconvenience, but would swiftly revert with delight to all the ancient practices of smuggling and border mischief that underlie the heritage of the Reiver lands.)

What’s attractive about this option is that no further EU referendum is required. It fulfils the referendum mandate for the UK to make the best leaving of the EU as can be managed while the remainder EU state of Scotland/NI tidies things up.

(There’d be some renegotiating of the new UK’s relationship with the EU to be done, of course, including remodelling of its financial contributions and representation to account for its much smaller size, but with both sides fundamentally wanting the same thing they shouldn’t be too unpleasant.)

For Leave-voting England and Wales, it solves all their problems, giving them freedom to immediately negotiate trade deals with whoever they want while losing the northern “awkward squads” at the same time.

Others will be sad but recognise that the parting of the ways was already implicit in the outcome of the EU referendum and an inevitable outcome of devolution of powers to the UK nations. The referendum seriously split the UK Remainer north from the Leaver south and nothing is likely to unite the two halves any time soon.

Reverse independence provides an elegant and quick solution for the parts of the UK that want to leave the EU to do so without hindrance, while the Remainer nations get their wish to stay and the Irish Question simply goes away.

(Unless NI wanted to go with England and Wales, but there would be no rational reason for it to do so – both of the other options avoid a hard border and avoid leaving the EU, and one of them would still constitute staying in the UK under the Queen, so would theoretically be sellable to Loyalists, or at least difficult to coherently oppose.)

The specific mechanism to achieve this result would be to withdraw the Article 50 notice that started the leaving negotiations. That removes the unwelcome current deal completely and returns the UK to normal membership of the EU. Westminster would then pass a law on behalf of England and Wales withdrawing from the 1707 Act Of Union, citing the Brexit vote in both nations as justification, and expressly noting that “the UK” now comprised Scotland and NI (subject to the latter’s decision).

Many would mourn the breakup of the UK as a state. However, all the nations would remain in the Union of the Crowns that began in 1603 and the emotional connection of a united kingdom, the united monarchy, would remain as before. After all, the current UK doesn’t hate Canadians or Australians.

The Queen would continue to enjoy her holiday home in the Highlands in the same way as many New Brits would keep theirs in Spain and France. Huge numbers of citizens would also acquire dual citizenship to retain family ties and easy passage between the nations, that principle having been established and agreed by both sides during the 2014 indyref.

The “meaningful vote” in Parliament could resolve the current impasse on Brexit and set this reverse independence in motion. SNP MPs would vote for it in a heartbeat, most Tories would probably go along with it, and a lot of Labour MPs in heavily Leave-voting constituencies would be given a way out of their current dilemma.

Scotland would remain in the Union of the Crowns and the Commonwealth with the other nations, Scottish soldiers will still play pipes and drums at Buckingham Palace. Lifelong friendship and family ties between the nations would continue to blossom in a new understanding.

New Britain would set about trading freely with the world and Scotland would enjoy becoming a normal small, inclusive, outward-looking nation in the EU. Northern Ireland would make its choice as to where it wanted to be in due time. (Both could welcome Remainer immigrants from England and Wales to a new life in a familiar land, boosting their economies.)

Everybody wins. Job done!

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montfleury

Obvious, pragmatic, therefore impossible.

Croompenstein

Perfect idea Paul, but… my precioussssss

bobajock

I feel I have seen this elsewhere, indeed many English people I know say the same (I’m half English). It would make sense, and result in a friendly separation, rather than something fought over.

Of course, as a net contributor to London, we will never be let go willingly.

A Bruce

Interesting but doesn’t address the fact that England wants, indeed needs, Scotland’s resources or it goes bust.

I’m no lawyer but the Act of 1707 was between Scotland and England. Westminster is the UK’s Parliament. Can the UK Parliament (in the absence of an English Parliament) withdraw from the Treaty?

Lucia Daines

Perhaps the SNP would care to state this in the House – be interesting to see what the reaction would be.

Dan Huil

Sounds good to me.

Merkin Scot

Pure dead brilliant, Rev.

Ian Foulds

Have been in favour of this for years

msean

Sensible proposal,but,too sensible for brexiteers.Also,Shrodingers Oil,what with the bad and good prices at the same time lol.

Robert J. Sutherland

A Bruce @ 14:27,

Well, something of the kind (but then still outwith the EU) was done by the former Czechoslovakia, which fissured amicably by mutual agreement.

And what is generally forgotten is that very situation was the precedent which most worried Fluffy in that infamous interview when the interviewer diverted him by asking him about “extinguished”. (To which, after some hesitation, he simply mumbled “yes”.)

That dim acquiescence is what’s exclusively remembered and frequently reiterated, but it’s actually not what most concerned him. It was the precedent of a peaceful separation by agreement and its possible effect on the question of succession rights. The topic of the legal opinion then at the heart of the matter, and now the topic of the current article.

With a very nifty reversal this time. I like!

Buteman

A Bruce are you forgetting EVEL?

dakk

Interesting out of the box thinking Stuart.

It’s a non starter however for 2 reasons.

The parasitic English state will never willingly give up control of Scotland’s vast resources.

English exceptionalism would not countenance their shitty wee colony of Scotland being the UK successor state.

Liam Coyle

New Gaelic/Gallic ward courtesy of Irish accordion player Mairtin O’Connor, an amalgamation of the word Sasanach for Englishman and amach for out, so in GElic. Brixiteer is a Sasamach!

Bobp

Simply wont happen. Westminster need our resources.

Ken500

A GE election soon. The SNP hold the balance of power? Westminster wants to hold on to 5.2million people but wants migration down to 10,000. Inconsistent.

Independence for England and Wales. Brilliant.

handclapping

A Bruce @ 14:27

Just to prove that point Hameron introduced EVEL after 2014 so yes the English and Welsh can sit as an E+W parliament and vote to withdraw from the 1706 Treaty.
The Scots would get their voice as part of the UK Parliament Act for dismembering the Union unless they got a Section 30 to approve it.

However it might not be a good idea for the Scots as they would become the ‘contiuing state’ and liable for Trident, the Security Council seat and the debt!

handclapping

continuing

Socrates MacSporran

Very sensible suggestion, which will, of course, never be acted on for two reasons:

1. England needs Scotland’s resources, in particular our oil – they will never let us go because they need us.

2. To even start negotiations, England would need to recognise Scotland as an equal partner in the Act of Union and in the negotiations. They will never do this, since they think they own us.

Republicofscotland

Great idea, alas Westminster will never go for it. Simply put they need Scotland for all sorts of reasons, oil, gas, Trident, illegal wars cannon fodder etc.

Donald Urquhart

I’ve been asking English folks why they’re so terrified of independence, for years.

Minor point about your solution…

Shouldn’t the independent English/Welsh state be known as ‘Former United Kingdom, Elizabeth Regina’, or ‘FUKERs’ for short?

wull2

As long as they allow postal votes, I have many friends down South that will allow me to use them as a postal address.

Muscleguy

@A Bruce
EVEL surely takes care of that one. It could be slightly relaxed to let Welsh MPs vote and I’m sure the SNP would happily sit that one out though the Yoon MPs would grump and cry about it but the Tories wanted EVEL so there.

The question becomes then is there a majority of English and Welsh MPs who would vote to void the Act of Union? I very much doubt it, both Labour and the Tories claim to be UNIONIST parties. The FibDems would simply be noises off bleating about Federalism Tomorrow.

The Bain Principle would hold strong on this and any such proposal would fail, sadly. But creating an English (and Welsh) parliament is not that hard with EVEL on the statute books.

I’m quite sure the current makeup of Holyrood would vote in agreement quite happily too.

Brian Doonthetoon

Now then, peeps.

Credit the actual author!

Nice one, Paul Millar! The English people would probably go for it; the establishment would fight it tooth and nail, because of our resources.

James Caithness

The flaw might be that The Establishment and the English Parliament wouldn’t want to lose Scotland’s resources and wealth.

Macart

Y’see, that’s yer problem right there. It’s a pragmatic and practical solution. 🙂

Neatly done Paul Millar.

Ken

Hi, A Bruce.

The answer to that is: EVEL.

The UK Parliament sometimes sits as an English Parliament.

So no problem at all.

A Bruce says:
16 December, 2018 at 2:27 pm
I’m no lawyer but the Act of 1707 was between Scotland and England. Westminster is the UK’s Parliament. Can the UK Parliament (in the absence of an English Parliament) withdraw from the Treaty?

Thepnr

A fun idea but one that would never be entertained in England. Scotland (maybe with NI) as the continuing state would not only keep UK membership of the EU but the responsibility for every other International treaty also and England/Wales turfed out.

So Scotland would be in Nato, England and Wales out, Scotland would take over the UK’s permanent seat at the UN Security Council etc.

To be honest I wouldn’t fear a clean break, it could cause some short term pain such as being out of the EU temporarily but no matter what, an Independent Scotland will have to at some point, negotiate terms in International Treaties that are suitable for Scotland.

That’s all of them, might as well get these things done beginning negotiations right at the start of Independence and using a clean sheet of paper as the starting point.

Andy Anderson

Even if this was a goer we would have division in Scotland because only 50% want independence meaning 50% of us would be pissed off.

remo

Brilliant.

One of the hundred

Ridiculous proposal.
So England/Wales would leave the UK?
Leaving Scotland and NI as the successor state with £2Trillion of debt, the nukes, Royal Navy, massive military, UN security council membership, the Falklands, Gibraltar, dependent territories, all UK treaties, consulates, bbc etc?
No chance. How do you think 7 million of us in rUK will deal with that?
Completely ridiculous.
We leave the UK.
We leave them.

Colin Alexander

The UK isn’t going to give up it’s northern colony.

India had Ghandi who led resistance to British rule in colonial India.

We have SNP administrators of British rule in colonial Scotland.

Geordie

It’s a genuinely magnificent proposal, one I’d grab in a heartbeat. BUT…we all know it’ll never happen unless it’s launched via a sustained co-ordinated public campaign. Stu, you’re in a position of significant influence, why don’t you kickstart this? I’d willingly donate to a crowdfunder that pushes media adverts, spokespeople and a ruddy great petition calling for English Independence. The English voters would lap it up.

Clapper57

@Bobp @ 3.08pm

Exactly Bobp.

However remember how some said that in last Scottish Indy referendum in 2014 that England should also have gotten a vote in that referendum as affected them too.

That would have never happened .

Unionist MP’s would then have been in the awkward position of having to present an economic argument to the English people for Scotland remaining part of UK…..irony overload…..when one thinks of how for years they, the Unionists, have presented Scotland as freeloaders in ‘their’ union.

Also sentimental reasons would not have been enough for the English people to have wanted Scotland to remain in the UK…..the Unionists , who have diminished Scotland’s economic contribution within UKOK , would have reaped what they had sown.

As to present day everybody would indeed win if the English people decide now is the time for them to go it alone…after all have they not been told for years by the Unionists that they, the English, hold all of the power and the wealth within UKOK .

They are the many and we are the few so why can they not be strong and stable and just decide to have their ‘real independence’.

Ian McGeechan

There’s just the problem of the successor state carrying the bulk (all) of the UK debt.
That would need to be negotiated and agreed upon before anything else could be considered.

James Kerins

I had an idea many years ago (30 or so) to form an English Independence Party. Coming from Glasgow it would have been a bit of a stretch but I was in London at the time and I think I could have got it to work.
Selling independence to the English was always going to be easier than to the Scots.
The next morning after my hangover cleared I put it down to the ale and thought no more about it.
What a pity.

Proud Cybernat

Yes Trident, UN Sec Council, NATO, FCOs, National Debt, Bank of England etc would ‘normally’ (there’s that word again) revert to the continuing UK i.e. Scotland & possibly N.I.

But surely after a vote by England (& possibly Wales) to ‘withdraw’ from the Treaty of Union, all these matter are up for negotiation with the successor UK state? Surely it would not be beyond the wit of man that we could come to an amicable settlement on the division/ownership of all of these?

Scot Finlayson

The English claiming a UDI from UK,

good for us good for them,

the britnats in Scotland would commit harakiri.

Futaie

Surely the EU would fund a bridge from Scotland to NI if NI go along with this?

Dr Jim

Put it on the front page of the Daily Mail and England would vote for it, however it will and would never see the light of day on pain of death to any British politician who dared to voice such a proposition because they can count contrary to what they tell the poor English folks about subsidising us moany faced Scots they know England wold be in such serious financial stress it would bring their house down

As I said though Mr and Mrs average English Joe and Joan would likely go for this big time because they once again haven’t been told the financial consequences of what they think they vote for, and by the way English folks who might be reading this, it’s not that up here in Scotland we think you’re all daft we just know you’re all being lied to by the one political party you think are two political parties

Up here in Scotland we discovered Tory and Labour are the same party, oh, nearly forgot the Fib Dems there, well you already know about them

Have you never noticed England that no matter which party you vote for it always ends up the same result and never what you thought you voted for on what they told you

That’s the reason for an SNP Scottish government we do it deliberately because they are in fact a Scottish party and not a British one, so you folks in England should get yourselves an English party for your country, everybody happy!

Pedro

Great solution Paul – and wouldn’t it be funny to see the establishment and it’s media trying to rationalize holding on to Scotland whilst pushing the subsidy junkie myth.

O/T but re the Cactus criticism on the previous thread, I posted for the first time a couple of days ago and who was the first to welcome me aboard? Yes, you’ve guessed – Cactus. Many thanks to him and also to Liz G who answered my question.

Craig P

So we keep Gibraltar, Falklands, the nukes and the UN veto?

Thepnr

O/T Full interview by Sky’s Sophy Ridge with Nicola Sturgeon available from 13:35 minutes in.

link to news.sky.com

Tatu3

In the uk, but mainly England 52% voted leave, 48% voted remain. Mrs May fights for the majority.
In Scotland 62% voted remain, 38% voted leave. Why is Ms Sturgeon not fighting for our majority? Some say she has to think of the 38% too. Why?
If she has a plan, I’m not suggesting she even so much as hints to the “enemy” what it is, but her troops are very much in need of a boost, a pep talk, a sign that she IS fighting for the majority.
Because at the moment it doesn’t seem as if we, the majority, are being considered at all.

Bobp

Careful tatu3, you’ll be accused by some on here of being a troll.

Douglas

I have wondered about this. In conversations with British Nationalists in England, some seemed to like the idea. Strangely, they warmed to the ‘you didn’t dump me, I dumped you’ narrative.

Unfortunately, it would be very difficult because of the resources (oil has actually been a curse -if we as much of a basket case as they make out we would have been out long ago) and the colonies.

The rUK led by Scotland would be encumbered with an ethical outlook that it has not previously troubled it.

The crown dependencies are an important tax dodges for the powerful people who would decide. They wouldn’t tolerate any risk to their scams.

The nuclear weapons are another problem, decommissioning would be very positive but hard to sort.

I do like the possibility of final decolonisation… but some colonies are fiercely British despite how much trouble and cost it causes.

The national debt would need division, I’m not sure England would feel inclined to take it’s share.

Clapper57

My last comment at 3.49 meant to be at end of last sentence.

” real independence DAY”

Independence day being the mantra of Brexiteers such as Farage and co. on day after , and subsequently, EU referendum.

galamcennalath

From a Scottish perspective it does indeed make prefect sense.

However, from London, huge numbers of people from politicians down to ordinary voters would have real difficulty getting their head round it!

GB=UK=England=Britain is an engrained worldview which will be very hard to break!

There would have to be a lot of head scratching!

I think it might work particularly well if there were generous relocation grants available. Those with strong allegiance with England could relocate there from Scotland and NI. Similarly, folks who valued their European identity or recent immigrants who worried about a future in an ethnicity obsessed England, would be welcome to move to Scotland or possible Ireland.

The more you explore the idea, the better it sounds!

Dr Jim

@Thepnr

After watching the FM in that clip it’s no wonder many people in England would like to have a straight talking politician like what we’ve got up here in lil old Jockland

wullie

So how to get this message across to the people of England and turn the tables on unionists

velofello

A neat solution in principle but Westminster’s inherit possessive nature would be an obstacle to leaving EU membership to Scotland even although Westminster wants to leave the EU.May’s my “precious UK” you can read as Scotland’s precious resources.

For me another objection would be continuing with the royals. That the Queen signed off the law that scuppered the Scottish parliament’s Continuity Bill was a disgrace. The Queen is no friend of Scotland in my view, and yet she. and her family, are a cost to Scotland.

Bobp

Good point dr jim 4.01pm.Its what i always say to people down ‘sarf’here. Get yourselves a proper democratic English party to vote for. Not tory, not labour, not lib dems, not ukip.

Glamaig

The most entertaining thing about this idea is that to argue against its impeccable logic is to expose the fact that the ‘Union’ is a lie and always has been.

The Union is effectively the English establishment controlling the rest of these islands (with the honourable exception of RoI, and it seems they still havent quite come to terms with that).

Dr Jim

Ian Duncan Smith says “If the EU want a deal they better damn well step up to the plate”
As long as England has politicians like this they’re doomed

The loss to the EU of the UK Brexit I think is around 8% or so of damage to the EU
The loss to the UK is beyond imagining it’s a virtual armageddon

Garrioch David

Ye’r definitely thinking out of the box !

Terence callachan

Blah de blah de blah blah blah
Get a grip , you go on about this is unfair that is unfair unfair unfair unfair blah blah blah but when the most unfair subject crops up ,
English people
your colonisers
The people that cram unfairness into every nook and cranny of your life
you say
oh but we must be fair to the English
talk about dumb and dumber

English folk being given a vote on Scottish independence allows them to keep you subjugated
You will always be subjugated because they have sixty million people and can increase the number of them living in Scotland whenever they want to

You are in with a chance of persuading the “proud Scots but” to change their mind but you will never ever ever ever ever change English people because they already think you are part of England they are fighting to retain what they think they already own, they think you are trying to take a bit of their Britain , Englands Britain.

England is a great country it is powerful make no mistake about that, they have a history second to none.
English people are ….well….just people ….same as people anywhere else in the world ,good bad indifferent.
English people living in Scotland should only get a vote on Scottish independence if they were born here or if one of their parents was born here or if they can PROVE that they have lived in Scotland continuously for at least five years.
Allowing English people who were not born here who’s parents were not born here, who have only lived here a day or a week or a month or a year etc , to vote on Scottish independence is the most unfair thing of all it diminishes the importance of Scotland as a country it diminishes the status of Scottish people it’s a travesty of justice and fairness.
England as a country makes all the laws for uk and excluded EU citizens from voting on Brexit
Any person applying for a passport to live in England had to either show that they were born in England or one of their parents was born in England or they have to have lived continuously in England for five years, one more thing they have to do is take nationality and sit a test to show they know stuff like when the queen was born and how many Lords their are in the House of Lords etc the life in the uk test ludicrous and they talk about fairness ?
And you lot support their arrogance.

Cubby

It’s long overdue that England stands on its own two feet and stops looting other countries wealth. Is over 300 years of plundering the worlds resources not enough for England?

It’s funny how Westminster tells the English they subsidise Scotland to the tune of £13 to 15 billion per annum but there is no English independence movement to get rid of the burden of carrying Scotland/Wales/NIreland. Funny that since they really really object to subsidising the EU. Perhaps deep down they know that the subsidy is all a lie but won’t admit it.

Westminster trying to bully Russia and the EU at the same time. What a bunch of clowns.

Donald Bruce

I wonder if England was to have an independence vote the Scots MP would say they can not have one. Also would the English belive us when we told them they are too wee and too small to be an independent nation without Scotland. Does seem odd when you apply same arguments toEngland which is used at Scotland.

geeo

@tatu3: You came out with this !
…….

1. “Why is Ms Sturgeon not fighting for our majority”?
……..

2. “Some say she has to think of the 38% too. Why”?
……….

3. “If she has a plan, I’m not suggesting she even so much as hints to the “enemy” what it is”
………”

4. “but her troops are very much in need of a boost, a pep talk, a sign that she IS fighting for the majority”.
………..

5. “Because at the moment it doesn’t seem as if we, the majority, are being considered at all”.
………..
………..

1. Emm…she IS fighting for the majority, she won a legal mandate to hold an indyref in 2016 to protect Scots and Scotland from Brexit. Timing is the only remaining issue.
………

2. Nicola Sturgeon is FM of SCOTLAND not the FM of the SNP, she represents ALL Scots.
………

3. Hold on, you dont think she has a plan (see 1. above) but if she does, you do not want her to “even so much as hint..as to what it is” !!

So…how do you square that comment with point 1,4 and 5 ?
……….

4. (See points 1,3, and 5)!!!
……….

5. How do you expect to know if the majority are being considered if you do not want the FM to “even so much as hint..as to what it is” !!
……….

You really need to have a wee think before posting such contradictory nonsense.

Yiu might as well have witten, “FM…TUESDAY….APPLES”

That at least makes sense in some context, like if Nicola goes shopping on Tuesday and needs apples.

Terence callachan

So now instead of telling the English people who live in Scotland that they do not get a say in Scottish independence
We should to try and persuade England to have their own independence referendum

Yes yes yes ask permission from England or ask them to do what we are too frightened to do ourselves
If England had a referendum on English independence would they let EU citizens vote ? OF COURSE NOT

If England had a referendum on English independence would they let Scottish people vote ? OF
COURSE NOT

Cubby

Scot Finlayson @3.56pm

Sorry Scot but England can no more do a UDI than can Scotland.

For Wales and N. Ireland, on the other hand, UDI is the appropriate term.

galamcennalath

Wait a minute!

Do we keep the UN security seat?

Do we get the 11ish overseas territories? Perhaps they should vote on who they want to go with.

Cubby

Colin Alexander@3.45pm

Colinshit

You are starting to rival Rockshit for the title of the most boring repeat Britnat posts on Wings.

Give it a rest you diddy.

Cubby

Andy Anderson@3.43pm

In case you haven’t noticed you describe the current situation.

Ian Foulds

wullie says:
16 December, 2018 at 4:39 pm
So how to get this message across to the people of England and turn the tables on unionists.

There is an English Independence site, I believe.
link to twitter.com

Maybe we could point this article to them?

Sinky

Somethings never change. Channel Four evening news includes Nicola Sturgeon calling on Labour to put down vote of no confidence on Uk Gov.
BBC no mention of Scotland’s First Minister

John McInnes

And the Euro waives the 39 billion?

ROBBO

All appears plausible but hold on what about the £2trn debt that the present Uk Has accepted responsibility for?

Clootie

You forgot property law. Scotland belongs to England and has to do what it is told … Willie Rennie will obey. So will the other Unionist sheep. Even Labour will not abstain or wait when it comes to support for their masters.This gives new meaning to “follow, follow”.

Please get off your knees Scotland!

Cubby

Marr interviewing Fox – two Britnat Scots discussing the will of the people re Brexit. Not one word from either of the two Britnats about the will of the Scottish people. Fox by omission denying the Scots sovereignty.

Are Fox/Marr Scottish – no chance – a couple of chancers. People like them turn my stomach. A pair of English arse lickers.

yesindyref2

Eddie Lizard would be like “England, please don’t go”.

Corrado Mella

That’s a neat idea, on paper, to resolve the constitutional question.

However the England & Wales socioeconomic basket case cannot afford to let Scottish resources go.

Besides many other disadvantages, Independent England & Wales would have to pay £££Bn to light and heat their homes, as they’re completely dependent on Scottish power, oil, coal and gas.

This would disproportionately hit the poor in those countries: we Scots are not the type of people that threaten others while in need.

Ww should continue to generously support and subsidise independent England and Wales, on condition they get shot of the BritNazi Establishment and all the tax dodging, xenophobic, sociopathic, warmongering scum that’s infesting all of our countries.

Close the House of Lords, tabula rasa at Westminster, Salford, Whitehall and all ganglia of cancerous power infecting our society.

Kick out of any country anyone that stashed money in a tax haven rather than investing or spending it to make something better.

Move with us towards a society where everyone understands that you don’t live on isolation, but everything that you do and everything you fail to do, affects everyone else, every time.

The Butterfly Effect is not just a movie. It’s how everything works.

vlad (not that one)

@Scot Finlayson 15:56
The English claiming a UDI from UK, good for us good for them,the britnats in Scotland would commit harakiri.
I doubt it. History suggests they would immmediately become the most fervent Scottish independistas.

Colin Alexander

Geeo said: “1. Emm…she IS fighting for the majority, she won a legal mandate to hold an indyref in 2016 to protect Scots and Scotland from Brexit. Timing is the only remaining issue.”

The evidence that timing is the ONLY issue? Which begs another question:

Is it a “legal” mandate?

Or is it a political mandate, which is a convention like Sewel?

I ask, because the Supreme Court has ruled established conventions like Sewel are legally worthless when it comes to Scotland, so don’t expect the convention of political mandate to be respected by our British rulers either.

Street Andrew

Spot on. I’ve been saying this for months, but nobody listens to me, either.

The flaw in this solution is that the Brexit prospectus is built on lies and fantasy so rational proposals don’t apply.

yesindyref2

“Twaddle”

Tha’s what I thought you said.

jfngw

I think now we are pretty near a crunch point regarding the welfare of Scotland. There has to be some plan for Scotland outside Brexit. Theresa May has been given enough time to produce some solution, and we need to know how this will pan out for Scotland.

A provisional date for a referendum needs to be announced sooner rather than later. If there is no plan to keep Scotland in the CU & SM by this date then a referendum should proceed. Unless they have some other as yet unreported strategy that can stop Scotland’s EU exit.

I sound impatient but there are a lot of people becoming very concerned for themselves and their children’s future. We can’t keep them dangling on a string forever.

Just to add, I’m not interested in the outcome for the SFF, they appear to be a Tory group, run by someone from Ulster, that bends with the Conservative party. There are other fishing groups that are anti-Brexit (although this seem to be unknown by the BBC, who seem to run an almost daily ‘what’s the SFF opinion’ story, in fact I’m more likely to the SFF on Rep Scot that a SNP MP on QT).

jfngw

Would we need to send, Neil Oliver and that fire risk woman to ask them to ‘lead us not leave us’. Jim Murphy could do his egg routine in London. The scope for amusement is endless.

Iain mhor

Logical, well thought out and simply explained.
Taking Occam’s Razor to a Gordian Knot.
Therefore, it will never be contemplated far less comprehended.
That is a dangerous, dangerous concept to float before the electorate of England…
Good God man – They might demand it!

wullie

I did read somewhere many years ago that there is a Scottish nationality law.
You have to be born in Scotland of Scottish born grandparents.
true or false I have no idea

Breeks


Republicofscotland says:
16 December, 2018 at 3:18 pm
Great idea, alas Westminster will never go for it.

If Scotland was to get its Constitutional Sovereignty sorted out, divide UK Sovereignty and unilaterally revoke Scotland’s Article 50, Westminster wouldn’t be able to stop us, and furthermore, the onus for terminating the UK Union would fall on Westminster’s positive action to leave, not Scotland’s passive refusal to leave with them.

If Scotland takes charge of sovereignty, Scotland takes charge of Brexit.

Revoke Scotland’s Article 50. Our Sovereignty provides us with an immediate failsafe and Scottish Backstop.

You’re right, why would Westminster go for it? Good question. Quid pro quo. What on Earth made Westminster think Scotland was going to go for Brexit?

Iain

Great idea, solves loads of problems.
Let the brexters know and it will happen.
Spread the word folks!

Iain

As far as to the viability of the Trident missile system, it is already obsolete as Chinese spy satellitescan already track Trident submarines.
So there’s no point in keeping an obsolete system.

Al Ba

Well, Cubby, he’s a Glasgow lad, check this > link to en.wikipedia.org

Glamaig

wullie at 6:35 pm

if I was born to my granny that would mean there was something seriously distasteful going on my family

Socrates MacSporran

Wullie

I think you are referring to eligibility to represent national sporting teams.

People:
1. botn in Scotland
2. whose parents were born in Scotland
or 3. who had at least one grand-parent born in Scotland
are eligible to be selected for Scotland’s national teams.

K1

‘Fun’ idea no doubt. Complete non starter as most have pointed out.

And on that note, no matter how many conundrum solvers anyone of us can come up with…we are not dealing with reasonable and rational people in UK gov context.

If they were even remotely interested in any solution to their xenophobic issues they would have come up with the atl solver before even having an EU ref.

They will never let Scotland go. We have to take Scotland out of the UK ourselves.

Robert J. Sutherland

Corrado Mella @ 18:12:

Ww should continue to generously support and subsidise independent England and Wales, on condition they get shot of the BritNazi Establishment …

Oh, for goodness’ sake, not another mad Bella type who thinks Scotland should somehow lead the UK to a new Nirvana, despite all evidence to the contrary. It’s never going to happen in a month of Sundays. The English political establishment doesn’t give a toss about what we think and it’s as plain as daylight in the Sahara at high noon.

For the sake of our sanity and our financial wellbeing, we need to abandon this ship of fools, and the sooner the better. The shock of our leaving is probably the only thing that will bring about a serious reform of the English political system. By leaving we will serve them best too.

galamcennalath

BBC article …. “What can New Zealand teach us about Brexit?”

No sense of irony or self awareness! What it should teach everyone in Scotland is small independent nations can exist successfully without their bigger neighbour making all the big decisions on their behalf!

It’s like that shit where fool Cameron talked about Norway!

Dr Jim

England has to commit to its own doom before Nicola Sturgeon can offer the alternative choice to Scotland, that’s the mandate she has

Independence with Scotland or Doom with England

Bit of a no brainer really

Clapper57

@ Robert J Sutherland @ 6.57pm

Well said Robert…as per usual.

Dr Jim

@Corrado Mella

And do we keep them in line using Gort the interplanetary robot policeman or do we just say please gonnae not be dupicitous Bastirts anymore and be nice and kind

Aye yer right that’ll work

Legerwood

Sinky says:
16 December, 2018 at 5:42 pm
“”Somethings never change. Channel Four evening news includes Nicola Sturgeon calling on Labour to put down vote of no confidence on Uk Gov.
BBC no mention of Scotland’s First Minister””

I saw a clip of the FM’s Sky interview on the BBC News tonight. Cannot remember if it was the main news at 5.35pm or Reporting Scotland immediately after.

Bill Hume

I’ve just realised that I don’t give a F**k if England wants to leave the EU.
It’s not my fight.

geeo

No Coco, it is legal.

It was a mandate given by the legally Sovereign Scots People.

You just stick to slavering and wiping.

Luigi

Leave?
What’s all this about “leave”?

We don’t leave anything. If Scotland (or England) votes for independence, the union is dissolved. Finito. No UK to leave, my fiends. 🙂

I still think that English nationalism is going to play a big part in the eventual breakup of the UK. Don’t know how, don’t know when, but I can feel it in me bones.

ronnie anderson

In ending the Treaty of the Union & becoming Independent , those people advocating that we should take all the detritus from england , in letters writ large YOU,S KIN AW FUCK OFF

Glamaig

somebody on another thread mentioned BBC having an unfair share of Scotlands media.

Heres someone taking legal action on that very thing

link to thenational.scot

Luigi

Not sure about “successor states, but if either Scotland or England broke the union, a completely new UK would have to be formed (and recognised by the UN). If folk were inclined, that is. 🙂

X_Sticks

Great idea Paul. Just too damn smart by half.

Dr Jim

Mike Russell exposes Adam Tomkins as a liar and a propagandist in the Holyrood chamber by quoting his own blog at him

It’s in the National, lovely

ronnie anderson

Dear Santa a’ve never wrote ah letter tae U in ma puff an ah hiv two front teeth so ah hud nae need tae git anither two fur christmas , onnyhows aw ah want fur christmas is Total Independence nae need tae wrap it in in fancy paper n tinsel n fairy lights ah’ll take it the noo, am no intae aw that falderal a la la la .

Thanks Santa .

Colin Alexander

geeo

Are we back to name calling? I thought Cubby had taken over the Wings playground bully role and you were now debating without childish insults.

The highest court in the UK, the Supreme Court, has just ruled UK Parliament is sovereign and the Scottish Parliament is not. That the sovereign Scots vote in that Scottish Parliament means NOTHING to the Supreme Court.

The UK Parliament is supreme in the UK constitution and for as long as Scotland remains under that constitution it is the law of the UK that UK Parliament can ALWAYS overrule the Scottish Parliament, just because it can.

It didn’t rule on whether the people of Scotland are ultimately sovereign.

It did rule that the Scottish Parliament can be overruled by the supreme UK Parliament.

So, if the Scottish Parliament legislates for indyref, UK Parliament, such as the unelected Lords, could legislate to say any indyref is unlawful.

That is not an attack on the sovereignty of Scotland’s people from me.

I am simply saying the law would not recognise Scottish sovereignty expressed via the not-sovereign, subservient Scottish Parliament if it’s in conflict with the sovereign UK Parliament.

Just because Winnie Ewing called it the “Scots Parliament reconvened” didn’t make it true. The current Scottish Parliament is a WM branch office. The Supreme Court confirmed that.

So, I doubt there is any legal right to indyref in UK law.

Of, course I would love the courts to decide I am wrong and establish there is a legal right to indyref2. That is a question the Scottish Govt and UK Govt dodged in 2014, so all we have is the Supreme Court ruling on the CB and our opinions about indyref2.

ronnie anderson

Dear Santa
A’ve never wrote ah letter tae U in ma puff an ah hiv two front teeth so ah hud nae need tae git anither two fur christmas , onnyhows aw ah want fur christmas is Total Independence nae need tae wrap it in in fancy paper n tinsel n fairy lights ah’ll take it the noo, am no intae aw that falderal a la la la .

Thanks Santa .

Philip Maughan

After Liam Fox (on BBC Andrew Marr Show) gave as his first reason for being against a ‘People’s Vote’ was that it would open the door to Nicola Sturgeon insisting on another Indyref, I think many English people (both Brexiters and PV adherents) would be more than happy to be rid of Scotland.

Pete Barton

Anyone seen Angus Robertson’s Twitter via the Rev?
link to mobile.twitter.com

Pete Barton

Oops…not very good at this copy lark..
Someone help me out here please?

cynicalHighlander

Terence callachan

Simple because England is largely racist brought about by their empire ruling arrogance, Scotland never has although some Scots agree with England.

cearc

There you go, it’s hilarious

link to twitter.com

Pete Barton

@Cearc

Thankyou so much!

50 shades of May…

Where did I get the idea from that German people have little sense of humour??

Dr Jim

Liquid Brexit….good one!

sassenach

The world and his wife must be convulsed with laughter at the ‘Britnat’ way of approaching serious negotiations.

Get me out of this shambles – PLEASE!

Dr Jim

Apparently Jeremy Corbyns hand is going to be forced
I would suggest they leave his hand alone, we can all see it’s working fine

Ian Brotherhood

@Dr Jim –

Corbyn’s hand is going to be forced where exactly?

😉

Rock

England is guaranteed to become independent of Scotland – in 2640 AD.

311 years as a colony gone, only 622 more to go.

Cheer up folks.

Colin Alexander

The final conclusion of today’s blog from Craig Murray:

“Sturgeon should be working for nothing else but Scottish Independence, which is the way to honour Scotland’s clear vote to Remain”.

I agree.

Cubby

Colinshit@8.03pm

“The UK parliament is supreme in the UK constitution ” want to point out where this is?

” Of course I would love the courts …….. @ aye right – phoney independence supporter.
.

Cubby

Rockshit = Colinshit = phoney independence supporters posting boring Britnat crap.

Rock

cynicalHighlander says:
16 December, 2018 at 8:34 pm

“Simple because England is largely racist brought about by their empire ruling arrogance, Scotland never has although some Scots agree with England.”

Scots enthusiastically “punched beyond their weight” during the “empire ruling arrogance”.

Not “some Scots” but a majority voted to remain with England in 2014.

In this context, I consider the 500,000 or more English settlers and English second home owners who had the right to vote as “Scots”.

Rock

Rock says:
16 December, 2018 at 9:45 pm

cynicalHighlander says:
16 December, 2018 at 8:34 pm

“Simple because England is largely racist brought about by their empire ruling arrogance, Scotland never has although some Scots agree with England.”

For the record, I do not consider the 500,000 or more English settlers and English second home owners who had the right to vote in Scotland’s independence from England to be racist.

Having lived in Scotland, I believe they have become as non-racist as the Scots.

Dave McEwan Hill

Colin Alexander at 9.31

Yep. That is exactly what she is doing – though you obviously don’t understand the nuances.

Rock

Cubby says:
16 December, 2018 at 9:44 pm

“Rockshit = Colinshit = phoney independence supporters posting boring Britnat crap.”

When did you start posting here Cubby, dear?

Rock (22nd May 2014 – “Book smart, street stupid”):

“Stuart,

I really like the way you expose these liars and hypocrites, without mincing your words, no matter whether they are Professors or lesser idiots.

It would be excellent for the independence cause if your articles were being published in paper form with a wide distribution to the general public.

I wonder if someone could interest the Weirs in such a project, given what they have been subjected to in the media.”

Typical “Britnat crap” right?

Rock

Dave McEwan Hill says:
16 December, 2018 at 9:50 pm

“Colin Alexander at 9.31

Yep. That is exactly what she is doing – though you obviously don’t understand the nuances.”

May I ask where you buy your rose-tinted specs, Dave?

Or have you had a laser operation so you can see everything rosy?

Sinky

Sunday Times encouraging readers to write in about SNP tax grab from hard pressed middle income earners.

ScottishLetters@sunday-times.co.uk

Rock

Colin Alexander says:
16 December, 2018 at 9:31 pm

“The final conclusion of today’s blog from Craig Murray:

“Sturgeon should be working for nothing else but Scottish Independence, which is the way to honour Scotland’s clear vote to Remain”.”

Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

“Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

Euan Macpherson

In 2014, the Scottish people exercised their right to self-determination by opting to remain in the UK. In 2016, they exercised their right to self-determination by opting to remain the EU. If the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland choose to leave the EU, that is their right. Legally, in my understanding, the later vote supercedes the former. Hence, there is no need for another indy referendum if the Scottish Government asks the EU to respect the decision the Scottish people made in 2016. They chose to remain – if others choose to leave, so be it.

PacMan

O/T

I had bumped into an old friend whom I had not seen for years and had a few pints last week. Besides old times, we had got talking about politics and Brexit in particular.

Had never talking about politics before but the jist of it is that is a Labour name to the core. I don’t need to spell out what he thinks of the SNP and Scottish Indy as it has been said millions of times. One thing that did stand out with the conversation was his assertion that Labour are unelectable because we vote for SNP here.

Looking back at the conversation, I can’t put across his tone but it definitely sounds like the Scottish cringe that I’ve heard a lot about it. Knowing what the cringe means and experiencing it first hand is two different things. The other thing that struck me was how he was blaming us Scots for the bigotry of certain parts of the English population who would not support Labour due to them potentially going into a pact with the SNP.

It got me thinking. Imagine if the demographics and it’s spread in England was so different that it allowed for instance the black population to form a political party and got MP’s elected. If the media or people had the same attitude towards that hypothetical party as they do towards the SNP, they would be deemed racist.

As Labour is supposed to be the party to fight inequality and bigotry in all it’s forms then why are they not confronting this anti-Scottish sentiment where-ever it rears it’s ugly head?

We are told we are part of a union, country, nation. Why is my political views not being represented because of the political party that best serves my interests is shunned by the British establishment? It isn’t my fault where I was born so why am I in effect being treated as a second-class citizen in a country that says were are all one regardless of our geographical location?

I know this cringe will never go away and people will do extreme forms of mental gymnastics in order to justify this discrimination because they are not strong enough to confront the conflicting positions that they think of themselves as Scottish but they can’t identify with it. However, they should also be the party that fights injustice but they are not fighting that injustice that directly affects them.

This realisation does makes me feel a bit uncomfortable myself as during the referendum I genuinely did have sleepless night worrying about whether I was doing the right thing about supporting independence and in doing so I was could be abetting narrow minded nationalism which I am opposed to.

Back then I wasn’t strong enough to overcome that worry and yes guilt. Back then I was new to politics and had only a basic knowledge of it which was shaped by the mainstream media.

I know know that the MSM is biased and I know better of their lies and deceit and those who support independence are not ‘gargoyles and social misfits’ to quote one of their then ardent cheerleaders. Do I put any stock in their opinion of independence which as a supporter, is in extent their opinion of me?

Considering how low they have went with their lies and deceit, I have no respect for them or their opinions. Anybody who takes stock of their opinion and I mean this in the nicest possible way, needs to take a good look at themselves and wise up.

velofello

How, and when, and by what means, did the UK “Supreme Court” come into being? By the specific individual the agreement of each the four nations of the UK? By a referendum? I really don’t know.

What I do view is that a court that will accept a process that allowed Westminster, in response to a Scottish parliament Continuity Bill, to effectively buy time to block the Bill by litigation and then introduce law – by the unelected House of lords – to declare the Continuity Bill invalid, is no Court of Justice.

PacMan

O/T

I had bumped into an old friend whom I had not seen for years and had a few pints last week. Besides old times, we had got talking about politics and Brexit in particular.

Had never talking about politics before but the jist of it is that he is a Labour man to the core. I don’t need to spell out what he thinks of the SNP and Scottish Indy as it has been said countless times before. One thing that did stand out with the conversation was his assertion that Labour are unelectable because we vote for SNP here.

Looking back at the conversation, I can’t put across his tone but it definitely sounds like the Scottish cringe that I’ve heard a lot about it but never witnessed it personally from somebody I know. Knowing what the cringe means and experiencing it first hand is two different things. The other thing that struck me was how he was blaming us Scots for the bigotry of certain parts of the English population who would not support Labour due to them potentially going into a pact with the SNP.

It got me thinking. Imagine if the demographics and it’s spread in England was so different that it allowed for instance the black population to form a political party and got MP’s elected. If the media or people had the same attitude towards that hypothetical party as they do towards the SNP, they would be deemed racist.

As Labour is supposed to be the party to fight inequality and bigotry in all it’s forms then why are they not confronting this anti-Scottish sentiment where-ever it rears it’s ugly head?

We are told we are part of a union, country, nation. Why is my political views not being represented because of the political party that best serves my interests is shunned by the British establishment? It isn’t my fault where I was born so why am I in effect being treated as a second-class citizen in a country that says were are all one regardless of our geographical location?

I know this cringe will never go away and people will do extreme forms of mental gymnastics in order to justify this discrimination because they are not strong enough to confront the conflicting positions that they think of themselves as Scottish but they can’t identify with it. However, Labour supporting individuals in particular should not be this way because as mentioned, they are supposed to be the party that fights injustice but they are not fighting that injustice that directly affects them.

This realisation does makes me feel a bit uncomfortable myself as during the referendum I genuinely did have sleepless nights worrying about whether I was doing the right thing about supporting independence and in doing that I could potentially be abetting narrow minded nationalism that I am opposed to.

Back then I wasn’t strong enough to overcome that worry and yes guilt. Back then I was new to politics and had only a basic knowledge of it which was shaped by the mainstream media.

I know know that the MSM is biased and I know better of their lies and deceit and those who support independence are not ‘gargoyles and social misfits’ to quote one of their then ardent cheerleaders. Do I put any stock in their opinion of independence which as a supporter, is in extent their opinion of me?

Considering how low they have went with their lies and deceit, I have no respect for them or their opinions. Anybody who takes stock of their opinion and I mean this in the nicest possible way, needs to take a good look at themselves and wise up.

Pete Barton

Hmm..it’s getting very cheery tonight.

If I didn’t know better, I’d think there was an agenda being pushed here.

Rock et al.. why don’t you take your Xmas leave early.

30 shillings buys you a lot of Smarties?

Sarah

@ PacMan – thanks for sharing your personal story. It’s good to know folk really did think hard about the principles – and then voted Yes! It won’t take so much thinking about next time, for us at least.

Ian Brotherhood

@Pete Barton –

FFS man, don’t get yon roaster back on the Smarties again…

geeo

Oh dear coco, you clearly have no clue as ever.

Holyrood can never be sovereign, it is the PEOPLE who are Sovereign in Scotland.

This is a stone cold fact, only just recently AFFIRMED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, unchallenged i may add.

Nobody has sovereignty over Scots People, not Holyrood, not WM, not the Supreme Court.

If you need explained as to what Sovereign Power is, go buy ‘Sovereignty for dummies’ available in crayon, just for you.

Keep watching events as they unfold, you are about to find out you are dribbling.

Oh aye, could you post a link to your Uk constitution please ?

Shouldn’t be a problem for you huh, since you quote it all the time.

Prove it exists, i would love to read it.

Will coco rise to the challenge, or divert away from the request ?

Its a tough one huh ?

Simon Curran

Key thing about the Rev’s idea is if it was proposed it would draw out the real reasons why England wanted to hang onto her northern colony.

mike cassidy

No doubt England will have 2640 reasons for saying no to this.

Pete Barton

@IB:

You can get thousands of Smarties for forty pounds a week eh?

Love the Big Yin.

Pmsl @ Angus Robertson’s vid on German TV.

Yes Minister style British Elite mismanagement being shown up for the folie that it is.

It’s the first time I’m happy to feel mocked and pitied simultaneously if I don my former British hat.

Weird.

boris

Analysis proved that every Scot would be £1,400 better off every year by staying part of the UK, and what a benefit. This is what could be done with the bonus.

link to caltonjock.com

North chiel

Latvian ambassador to the U.K. apparently unhappy about Russian broadcasters beaming in pro Russian propaganda into her country. Perhaps she should move up to Edinburgh from London to see what Scotland has to put up with?

Geoff

This proposal would be an economic disaster for Scotland.
Scotland would inherit the benefits of successor (rUK) status, such as membership of the EU (and UN?), but it would also inherit all the liabilities of the current UK.

In 2014 we were assured, by no less than HM Treasury, that as the successor state rUK (England etc.) would be responsible for all the liabilities of the UK, including that part of Scots’ pensions due from NI contribution paid to UK prior to independence, and the UK national debt, now rapidly approaching £2tn.

If Scotland leaves then rUK (England etc.) would be 85-92% of the current UK state (depending on what Wales & NI did) and may possibly have been able to manage carrying those financial burdens. If England (+Wales?) then rUK (Scotland + poss NI) at 8-10% of the current UK state would struggle, even with the benefit of our natural resources such as oil, renewables, etc..
An independent Scotland would be a pretty rich nation, but probably not rich enough to bail out the rest of the UK. Nor I suggest would it wish to do so.

Daisy Walker

There are a great many nice English people – I mean it, they really are nice – and when it comes to Scotland, or indeed any of their colonies – they have very little interest, and a great depth of ignorance. This ignorance is carefully nurtured and insulated by the English state – why let the populance know of bad things being done, in their name, for their benefit….

Much much better if they don’t know.

But one does not need to have facts, or to see injustice, to FEEL a benefit.

Wouldn’t it be nice, if when it comes to losing jobs, in other countries the job cuts come first.

Wouldn’t it be nice, that if you ever sell your house, and retire to that beautiful spot you’ve seen in postcards – your house will always be overpriced and enable you to fund the dream.

Wouldn’t it be an absolute no brainer, that if you move to that country, the best jobs, in the Universities, in the Government, in the Military will always be occupied by someone with an accent like yours… and how confident that must make you feel – without ever having to think about it.

Scotland is a possession of England, and even the nicest of children hates it when someone takes away one its possessions when they’re not ready to throw it away.

On an instinctive and emotional level, even the thickest – and nicest – English person instinctively knows that Scotland is of value to England – as a possession. They can feel it all the way down to their bones. And unfortunately for us, (unlike NI) they’re not ready to throw us away. And this feeling is just as powerful as patriotic feelings.

Here’s a thought – I wonder if the army going into NI late 60’s early 70’s (to keep the ‘peace’) had anything to do with them wondering if there was oil and gas in NI territories and them needing to hold on until they could find out. The timing is about right I’d say.

I’d love the above article/suggestion to be do-able.

Cubby

Rockshit

“. ………..Cubby, dear.

Rockshit = sexist patronising boring Britnat.

Rockshit has posted a veritable mountain of stinking crap from his sexist mouth. Try keeping your mouth shut and stop sharing your crap. No awards available for the largest pile of Britnat crap posted on Wings.

Cubby

Velofello@10.11pm

Tony Blair was paying so many visits to USA and thought they have a Supreme Court we should have one. So as Blair is a godlike creature one appeared. The difference between USA and U.K. Is the USA only has one legal system. The UK has two legal systems. It’s a lot trickier in the UK to have a Supreme court as a result. It clashes with the Treaty of Union. Thus the reason there has not been a UK Supreme Court previously.

The UK Supreme Court reflects the UK that created it. Corrupt and unjust.

Cubby

Pacman @ 10.07/10.12pm

Excellent post. Worth posting twice. Posts like yours make it worthwhile having to go past all the Britnat crap from phoney independence supporters.

The cringe is there in all in Scotland just to different degrees. The less cringe you personally have the more you start to see it in others. Once you start to see the media lies/propaganda you see it is an ever present to make Scots feel inferior and subservient.

Independence is normal. Subjugating a country is not normal and is downright evil.

Golfnut

You need to read Wikipedia’s take on Parliamentary Sovereignty, the manipulation and presumption is quite staggering. Just type in England’s Sovereignty law.

The principal of Sovereignty is a presumption nothing more. There are only two unqualified Sovereign bodies in the United Kingdom. The English Crown and the People of Scotland. That’s it. Westminster has spent the last 300 years in what can only be described as the biggest on going scam in history. Aided and abetted by our own parcel of rogues, the media and politicians. To be honest, for a long time it worked, but that’s beginning to unravel at quite an alarming rate for Westminster.

The Supreme Court is I have little doubt being looked at with contempt by their equivalents abroad, their action would not have been out of place in any fascist regime. They have of course an excuse, protecting the establishment state, apparently trumps democracy.

This is the end game.

Cubby

Rockshit@9.59pm

Rockshit = Colinshit

Having conversations with yourself now Rockshit. Not a good sign.

“It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit…….”. running out of time for this prediction Rockshit oh dear oh dear. Nostradamus you ain’t.

Got any predictions correct yet Nostrabamus. You are nowt but a stupid Britnat who posts a lot of Britnat Rockshit.

Breeks


Geoff says:
16 December, 2018 at 11:23 pm
This proposal would be an economic disaster for Scotland.
Scotland would inherit the benefits of successor (rUK) status, such as membership of the EU (and UN?), but it would also inherit all the liabilities of the current UK.

I don’t believe you’re correct there Geoff.

Westminster has gone out of its way to imply an Independent Scotland would be the Seceding State, and to a degree, there is a logic to seeing that way, however the Treaty of Union is quite explicitly a Union of equals. When the Union was created, there was no greater partner nor lesser partner, but two Constitutional equals.

If Scotland did remain in the EU, and England left, the dissolution of the Union would not create a Continuer State and Seceding State, but the same two Constitutionally equal entities which would each bear obligations, but obligations proportionate to their former part.

When the EU has considered Scotland’s Independence in 2014, the Lisbon Treaty takes a narrow view of Membership whereby Scotland would be considered the seceding state and would have to reapply, or be the Continuer State, but such comments did not anticipate Brexit and the English decision to leave Europe, although that doesn’t actually matter. Neither Artlices 48 or 49 of The Lisbon Treaty are correctly applicable to the situation of the dissolution of the UK which would create two equally sovereign entities both of which are already technically member states of the EU. The Lisbon Treaty simply isn’t equal to reconciling the resulting situation. A new precedent would have to be set.

In some respects, that might be a very simple computation, like apportioning the bill in a restaurant, whereas some areas might be awkward and protracted to resolve.

But go back all the way to the immediate aftermath of Brexit in 2016, and the EU was very quickly coming to terms with a holding pen status for Scotland as it extricated itself from the UK before emerging as a sovereign EU member state.

Breaking it down to its simplest form, – if there’s a will, there’s a way.

The only economic disaster galloping towards Scotland is being dragged out of Europe by the great Brexit Misadventure.

Neil Mackenzie

England can’t do anything. England doesn’t have a government.

I looked on the BBC website – There’s a politics section each for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales but England doesn’t have a politics section. England’s news consists only of ‘Local News’ and ‘Regions’. There’s no ‘England Politics’ section so, obviously, there can’t be any English government. How can a country with no government of its own be independent?

Cubby

Golfnut @12.02am

Spot on. Not much I can add.

Although I always think of Billy banana boots calling the Scottish parliament a wee pretendy thing. I tend to think of Westminsters Parliament as a wee pretendy sovereignty thing over Scotlands people.

Ghillie

One thing I would be interested in smuggling over the border is a powerful hoover 🙂

Cubby

Breeks@12.16am

If you enter into a partnership of two equal partners when the partnership is dissolved it would be normal for both partners to expect an equal share of the assets and liabilities unless it is agreed otherwise. There is no leaving the UK. The UK is terminated – and no Arnie Swarznegger required.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi velofello at 10:11 pm.

You typed,

“How, and when, and by what means, did the UK “Supreme Court” come into being? By the specific individual the agreement of each the four nations of the UK? By a referendum? I really don’t know.

What I do view is that a court that will accept a process that allowed Westminster, in response to a Scottish parliament Continuity Bill, to effectively buy time to block the Bill by litigation and then introduce law – by the unelected House of lords – to declare the Continuity Bill invalid, is no Court of Justice.”

When I was studying Scots Law on my day release course at Dundee Commercial College back in 1969 (I was a bank apprentice), the situation was that the final court of appeal in civil cases was the Scottish law lords in the House of Lords.

As far as I understand it, the UK supreme court is now the final court of appeal for appeals under Scots Law, with Scottish law lords sitting in judgement, rather than the HoL, as before.

Different name, same game, I think.

Iain mhor

Ahh @Rock still unsure whether its 620 or 622 years I see.
It’s up to a three year difference now. (2637 AD in 2017)
Swithery swithery, dithery dithery.
Make your mind up – How are we meant to get a coupon on?

Oh! Wait a minute, I finally just got it haha!
D’oh, always twice as long as the time since 1707 – So next year it will be 624 years and 2643 AD .
It was never a definitive prediction – I claim my fiver!

Brian Doonthetoon

You know, on thinking about what I typed at 12:48 am, it would appear that Westmonster has carried out a rather fine bit of propaganda, by referring to the final court of appeal of Scottish civil cases as the “UK Supreme Court”.

As far as I can see, nothing has changed from the previous regime of Scottish law lords sitting in judgement on Scottish civil cases.

Instead of the final appeal court being referred to as ‘the Scottish law lords in the HoL’, it is now ‘the UK Supreme Court’, suggesting that the UK is superior to Scots Law.

What think thee, my peers?

Dr Jim

They say that offering another democratic vote is a betrayal of democracy
The only people who fear voting in a democracy are those who fear they’ll lose
We had a vote an it’s final they say yet every five years we vote again in case we changed our minds from the last government we elected
Mrs May said there will be no general election and then went ahead and had one, they called it a snap election, was that different to a non snap election
The people of Scotland had a vote in 2014 to remain in the UK, now they say it was forever until the end of time and that means Scotland agrees with all decisions taken by any government in Westminster until told differently no changing of minds will ever be possible until we’re told we can change our minds by the same people who say we’re not allowed to

Scotland isn’t in a Union folks, no country on the planet would accept this from a *partner* No country in the EU partnership would accept this (Wallonia) nor would they be asked to

This is a nasty vile dictatorship of nutjobs and greed mongering thieves who treat the other Nations as irritants if they dare speak up yet funnily enough treat the very people they used to call terrorists with respect in case some of them start blowing stuff and people up again

What’s the message

Ghillie

Hallo Pedro =) and all new Wingers and Winged Lurkers =)

Welcome 🙂

marsfries

Theresa May is apparently going to say tomorrow that a second EU referendum would do “irreparable damage to politics”. This woman is just…. words fail me.

I still think a second EU referendum isn’t going to happen. They can’t even agree on the framing of the question. And even if they did, too many of the possible outcomes still spell trouble.

1) England still votes Leave but Scotland and NI and even Wales vote to Remain. England’s Leave vote is strong enough to overrule everyone else. That is not sustainable in the long run, especially if Westminster continues to not give a shit about how its neighbours voted and tells the other constituent nations to shut up and put up with what England has decided (basically what they have been doing for the last two and a half years).

2) England votes Leave, Scotland, NI and Wales to Remain. However, England’s Leave vote is such a wafer-thin majority that the combination of English Remain votes, and the Remain votes of the other three nations produces an overall Remain result across the UK. Then what? Expect a shitstorm south of the border with English Brexiteers and the arseholes in the English media to whip up a frenzy against Scotland, NI and Wales. In such a scenario, calls for a referendum on English Independence may prove to be irresistable, and as my earlier link points out, may not be such a bad thing at all.

3) Everyone votes Remain unanimously. Problem solved as far as the European question goes, but Scotland is still entitled to a second Indy ref since Westminster has blantantly run roughshod over Scots law with booting the Holyrood Continuity Bill to the Supreme Court and passing its own Withdrawal Bill. This is unprecedented and opened up another constitutional crisis. It also remains the case that the No campaign in 2014 did not fulfil its promise that Scotland would get full devolution. And the fact that it’d have taken TWO EU referendums to ensure that Scotland’s place in the EU remains safe by staying in the Union is not a demonstration of the safety and stability of the Union.

4) Most unlikely, but what if the vote comes down to 50/50? Not seen this happening anywhere else before either, but then there’d have to be a recount OR yet another vote. Cue even more eyerolling in Europe.

Reality is, too many people wanting opposite things can only be resolved through the dissolution of the UK and everyone going their separate ways. Federalism isn’t going to work anymore. Westminster has abused the other nations’ trust too many times already. That’s what blatant greed for your neighbours’ resources and disrespect for their wishes does.

And at some point, the EU27 are going to put their foot down too.

Lastly, I really really wish the SNP/ScotGov would consider the legal route to independence rather than stating outright it has to be through a referendum.

geeo

Notice how quickly coco disappeared when asked for a link to his ‘uk constitution’ ?

Al-Stuart

Brilliant.

This needs Rev Stu., to don his cape and strat a crowdfund to go over the heads of the naysayers directly to the public in the millions.

I would happily donate £100 for starters. More if needed.

Are there any other Wingers who would help crowdfund this to get a campaign writing to EVERY MP + MSP + MLAs + AMs in all four nations and also sign a parliamentary petition?

Surely The National would get behind this too?

Then the leaders in each of the disparate Brexit omlette mess.

This must be worth a BIG PUSH as it is such an elegant way to achieve what Scotland needs. Independence.

But in a way that does NOT pi55 off all the other parts of the jigsaw.

Paul Millar you are a genius.

A pure dead brilliant solid gold genius.

Liz g

Al – Stuart 3.14
Oh Al … This is what “should/could happen if all the player’s got on board…
And if there was the time to get it organized..
But its no going to happen…

It’s like when ye prepare to confront someone.
ye work out what ye want to say and all the answers in yer head…
Then the other party doesn’t stick to the script..

The point of this proposition,and the Rev’s previous one,was and is,I think,to highlight and explore the barriers to the most ” obvious ” solution to achieving what “the people” are actually saying they ( for what ever reason) they really want…

And those – actual – barriers are no the interests or wishes of the people themselves…. Which would result in the sort of compromise the Article suggested…
But rather … The interests of the ruling elite…
If you’ve ever said ” I don’t know why they JUST don’t ” !!!
Then ye step in tae …. The Land of …. The Politicians need to be curbed… All of them…
Which,logic would dictate that we are back to the …
Simple and Elegant position..
Bring yer Government Within Slapping Distance.. Then ye wull get Democracy!!

Undeadshuan

@One of the hundred

A state with a soverign fiat currency, which we would have as the sucessor state has no issues with debt.

Look at MMT and specifically what japan did with its debt.
(clue it owes itself the money)

It would be England who need a new currency and a way to finance their annual debts when they cant use BOE any more.

We would rename it to the bank of scots (to avoid confusion with bank of scotland) and move it to Edinburgh.

Breeks

Apart from unilaterally revoking Article 50 insofar as it relates to Scotland, does anybody have a credible alternative to defending Scotland’s place in Europe and simultaneously resurrecting the ascendancy of Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty which can be brought to fruition in less than the 102 days left at our disposal?

There already isn’t time for a referendum without and extension of time on Article 50 which the EU will not grant, or revocation of the UK’s Article 50 which May says Westminster will not do.

If our government in Holyrood believes itself answerable to Westminster and Westminster’s Supreme Court rather than answerable to the Constitutionally Sovereign people of Scotland, doesn’t that bring us to the point where, “…we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours”,…..

102 days.

Or is the ECJ ruling just the lastest Sovereign benchmark to be thrown under a bus and squandered by the timid tigers of Holyrood?

Tackety Beets
Robert Peffers

@Andy Anderson says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:43 pm:

” … Even if this was a goer we would have division in Scotland because only 50% want independence meaning 50% of us would be pissed off.”

Yeah! Well!

50% of us have been pissed off all our lives with the current set-up. The only difference would be it would be the other 50% becoming the pissed off half.

Sunshine

Breeks @ 7.47
I agree with you and my only other answer is to have a second independence vote, not the S N P campaigning for a second Brexit vote!
What the hell is happening. Why didn’t Nicola Sturgeon call a press conference after the S Court result?

Breeks


Robert Peffers says:
17 December, 2018 at 8:03 am
@Andy Anderson says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:43 pm:

” … Even if this was a goer we would have division in Scotland because only 50% want independence meaning 50% of us would be pissed off.”

Yeah…

Yeah, and just as democracy doesn’t change the absolute nature of sovereignty, neither does being pissed off have any influence on it’s legitimacy either.

We are sovereign whether we like it or not, vote for it or not, or are pissed off about it or not. Sovereign we remain.

Camz

Poor old Wales.

Macart

Heh. Provoked quite the response for a what if(?) piece. 🙂

Robert Peffers

@One of the hundred says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:45 pm
” … Ridiculous proposal.
So England/Wales would leave the UK?
Leaving Scotland and NI as the successor state with £2Trillion of debt, the nukes, Royal Navy, massive military, UN security council membership, the Falklands, Gibraltar, dependent territories, all UK treaties, consulates, bbc etc?
No chance. How do you think 7 million of us in rUK will deal with that?
Completely ridiculous.”

Rubbish!

The armed forces and all everything else in The Kingdom of England, (of which N.I. is also a part of that kingdom), belong to Her Majesty.

It is the Soldiers of the Queen, The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. The Civil Service is Her Majesty’s Civil Service as are the Royal Mint, Treasury and the Security Services.

Was not the Royal Navy and Monarch’s soldiers instructed by the royal personage NOT to aid the Monarch’s Scottish people on the expedition during the Darien Expeditions?

That is still the legal situation today, in The Kingdom of England the Queen of England is legally sovereign but in Scotland the Queen is Queen of Scots only and the Scots are legally sovereign.

I’d venture the guess that if Her Majesty attempted to negotiate for Scots to take on even a share of a former United Kingdom’s debits she would only succeed in triggering the second part of the Declaration of Arbroath that states the people can, “drive out”, the monarch they chose and replace that monarch with another who protects the people of Scotland legally sovereign rights.
s
We leave the UK.
We leave them.

Colin Alexander

geeo

I’ll put it simple for you:

You said there is a LEGAL right for indyref. Legal means in law. You show me the law that says the Scottish Parliament in law is entitled to hold an indyref.

The constitutional experts say it is currently a legally grey area. The SP can hold referendums, but cannot legislate on constitutional matters, so is an indyref a referendum or a constitutional matter?

I’m saying the recent ruling from the Supreme Court shows that even IF the SP did have the power to legislate for indyref, if the SP tried to legislate for indyref, UK Parliament has the power to legislate so it’s no longer a grey area: UK Parliament could legislate to say referendums are reserved to UK Parliament.

I should highlight that the Supreme Court also said, how much power the Scottish Parliament should have is a POLITICAL decision, not a legal one.

As for the HOC vote about Scotland’s people being sovereign. The UK does agree Scotland’s people are sovereign, as that legitimises the Stewarts being kicked off the throne. But they will also tell you that the sovereign people of Scotland chose to be ruled by UK Parliament in 1707 and in 2014 so the sovereignty of the people of Scotland is invested in UK Parliament rule, not the subservient Scottish Parliament.

Basically, the indyref policy is crap. It always has been. But Cameron’s govt played along as they had bigger plans ahead and played Scotland, rigging the campaign to guarantee a NO win and with EVEL, and Brexit following on, placing Scotland even worse off afterwards.

Wingers and the FM see indyref as a glorious achievement. It has been a disaster for Scotland.

UK Govt has played us as fools and yet the FM and others think indyrefs are the gold standard.

Some people never learn.

Robert Peffers

@Clapper57 says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:49 pm:

” … However remember how some said that in last Scottish Indy referendum in 2014 that England should also have gotten a vote in that referendum as affected them too.”

Aye! Mibbies so, but, “they”, were legally wrong. It was a matter for the legally sovereign people of Scotland only and not for the legally sovereign Queen of England and the people of the Kingdom of England are legally the Queen of England’s subjects. They get to elect who represents the Queen of England in The United Kingdom Parliament – but those English elected representatives represent Her Majesty of England not her subjects.

Robert Peffers

@Ian McGeechan says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:52 pm:

” … There’s just the problem of the successor state carrying the bulk (all) of the UK debt.”

Not a problem, Ian, as the United Kingdom Government is legally titled, “Her Majesty’s Government.”, and the Treasury, Armed Forces. Etc. are all Her Majesty’s. However, in 1688 the Parliament of the Kingdom of England passed legislation that forced the monarchy to legally delegate their sovereign, Divine Right of Kings, to The Parliament of the Kingdom of England but that parliamentary act was passed before the union.

Ken500

Call another Indyref in the middle of the mess,with reported 50% support. Instead of waiting for a GE. Then the SNP holds the balance of power. If people vote for it. Gets another Indyref which will be won. A win win. Instead of a double rammy. Labour could have taken May down in Sept 2017. The EVEL vote. Corbyn and the LibDems do not turn up to vote.

Demographically support will increase. 50,000 people keel over. The young ones come on board. Indy support increases.

The Tories are tanking the economy. Labour are useless. They want rid of people but cling on to Scotland, 5.2Million could go. That should suit them. They want only 10,000 migrants. A migrant Tory wants only 10,000 migrants. The cheek of it. They should leave. The hypocrites. It is just unbelievable.

The unionists at Westminster want to keep tax evading. The Hedge Funds are making a fortune out of Brexit. The unionists are sanctioning and starving people. They are a disgrace.

The waste of public money on HS2 and Hinkley Point with absolutely no business case. £Billions wasted. The Tory slush fund. Cameron et al at the trough.

The Greens going on about Council Tax changes. No one give a damn. People pay on average £20 a week for local services. People who can’t afford to do not pay. It is topped up by national tax revenues raised. Scotland pays it’s own (UK) pensions and benefits from tax revenues raised in Scotland. There is no ‘pension’ fund. It is paid from current revenues.

The unionists councils waste money like there is no tomorrow. On empty offices, shops and under occupied hotels. Gang up illegally to keep the SNP out. The SNP get the highest number of candidates elected, The unionists changed the electoral system illegally, with no mandate. To get the 3rd rate unionists in. An abuse of democracy.

Sky accusing other news channels of bias. They just make it up. Sky fake news. Murdoch the murdering liar. Along with the non Dom tax evading ‘Press’.

Robert Peffers

@Scot Finlayson says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:56 pm:

” … The English claiming a UDI from UK,
good for us good for them,
the britnats in Scotland would commit harakiri.”

Indeed, Scot, and in the Kingdom of England it would be a UDI but in Scotland where the people are legally sovereign it would not.

Hamish100

There are many types of fools mr Alexander. You dont fool us.

Robert Peffers

@Tatu3 says: 16 December, 2018 at 4:16 pm:

” … Because at the moment it doesn’t seem as if we, the majority, are being considered at all.”

Absolute claptrap. Nicola has been an SNP member since she was a teenager and has given up being an active practicing lawyer in order to devote her life to Scottish Independence.

She could have been a great deal financially better off with a lot less stress just working as a lawyer.

Robert Peffers

@wullie says: 16 December, 2018 at 4:39 pm:

” … So how to get this message across to the people of England and turn the tables on unionists.

Not a problem, wullie. Many of them think like that already. The Westminster Propaganda Wing has been preaching to them for centuries that Scotland is subsidised by the English Taxpayer.

They just naturally believe they keep us as pets and that all that gas & oil and electric power.Etc. belong to the United Kingdom/England.

Robert Peffers

@Cubby says: 16 December, 2018 at 5:21 pm:

” … Sorry Scot but England can no more do a UDI than can Scotland.”

Rubbish! Under the Laws of England Her Majesty the Queen of England, not the United Kingdom Parliament and there is no Parliament of England, is sovereign.

Thus, (unless the Queen of England herself declares Her English Kingdom independent), a Westminster, UNITED KINGDOM, parliament would be making a parliamentary vote of UDI.

Macart

Oh, hahahahahahaha!

‘May to urge MPs not to break faith with the British people’. Epic. Just epic.

How many fails in a single line? So Brexit omnishambles could be rebel MPs fault and it’s almost definitely the publics fault, but it’s not Ms May’s fault. Then of course there’s the whole ‘British’ bit. British being a bit of a movable feast in terms of Westminster definitions. It’s whatever they want it to mean on any given day.

Just so we’re ALL clear though. The collapse of UK politics, the breaking of trusts between societal demographics. The erosion of trust between people and institutions/services. The damage to economies. Apparently that is nothing to do with how Westminster parties have practised politics in the past several decades and it has nothing to do with Treeza. It’s all the fault of the plebs and rebel MPs.

Hahahahahahahaha! 😀 LOLMAGEDDON

Oh Jeez. That’s truly amazing. Makes you wonder though, eh? This is the office (PM) and system of government that claims it is the sovereign power. Ohhhh really? Well, to quote some pop culture: ‘With great power comes great responsibility’.

You don’t get the power without carrying the can for the screw-ups. The UK is a political and societal screw up? There is only one place where the buck stops.

Yorg Johnston

Seems like a great idea…it gives the Scots a good solution. For the rest of the UK however, lots of problems would remain. Even though N.Ireland voted to remain in the EU, many Unionists in N.Ireland will never accept Irish reunification. As for England & Wales, the idea ignores the wishes of the 46.6% (& rising) of the English who voted to remain in the EU, & all the Welsh who did likewise. There is no getting around the fact that Brexit, the Brexiters & the tory party & government have divided the people & split the 4 countries apart in a way that can’t be fixed. If we Scots go independent, & I hope we do, it could be said that of all the 4 countries, we’ll have the easiest time of it. I think we should take our independence regardless of whatever the outcome of Brexit turns out to be. N.Ireland would have a difficult period of disagreement between those wanting to unify Ireland, & those Unionists who will say never under any circumstances. Wales is split & under the thumb of the English. As for the English…well, they are also irrevocably split. If all the disastrous social & economic predictions came true, then things could only get worse in a diminished & divided England. At the end of the day, the only good solution to Brexit for all 4 countries is to cancel it altogether. But Scotland should still go independent…

Breeks

Revoke Scotland’s Article 50 notification, and you create a Scottish Backstop. The UK can secure no Brexit Deal which embodies colonial subjugation.

Westminster / England has another divisive conundrum it must resolve:- Brexit with No Scotland, or Scotland with No Brexit.

Kenno

Hamish 100

The only “fool” that I can see is you ya fuckin halfwit,,,if you didn’t constantly keep posting and answering to Trolls then maybe they would go elsewhere..

And if they annoy you that much why the fuck do you spend so much time and energy reading their fuckin posts???

The only Troll I see on here is you,,,how about trying to post something that is relevant to Scottish Impendence???

Breeks

Brexit is England’s UDI… Unilateral Demonstration of Idiocy.

Dorothy Devine

Tackety Beets, I do like Ozzies , they say it like they see it and I bet their parliament doesn’t pussy foot around thinking up euphemisms for ‘bloody liar’.

The one thing I thought wrong about it was that oft repeated ‘Europe needs the UK more than the UK needs Europe’- I have never been able to work out why Europe would need a whingeing , complaining, arrogant pain in the proverbials .

I think they will do just fine without us constantly upsetting the applecart and blaming anyone but ourselves.

Robert Peffers

@wullie says: 16 December, 2018 at 6:35 pm:

” … I did read somewhere many years ago that there is a Scottish nationality law.
You have to be born in Scotland of Scottish born grandparents.
true or false I have no idea.”

That belief is absolute pish, wullie.

The only organisations that have ever had such rules were the sporting organisations and that was only due to the only international meetings were within Britain.

Way back the Hibs football team used to organise exhibition matches throughout Europe and the World off-season.

The Hibs were the first British team in, “The Fair Cities”, cup. This eventually grew into the European Cup:-

link to edinburghnews.scotsman.com
There has never been a law that states Scots must be born in Scotland or to have parents/grandparents.

The Scottish Law that applies was set down in the Declaration of Arbroath that, “The People of Scotland”, not the, “Scottish Born People”, are sovereign.

Dave McEwan Hill

Colin Alexander at 8.30

“Some people never learn.”

Indeed. You being one of them.
Most people on this site react “FFS. Here he is again. With his convoluted,mock legalistic, regularly incomprehensible, illogical nonsense pretending to support independence”
I usually skip by but I saw “Some people never learn” and I thought “precious”.

In this tortuous and confused piece you decide that the Scottish people are indeed sovereign – but they can’t decide how they are ruled. What utter contradictory nonsense.

If you are “sovereign ” you can decide how you are ruled,you can decide what laws require to be augmented,cancelled, changed, adopted,ignored, provided to facilitate your ambition.
That is all.

That is what the United Nations Charter says.That is “jus cogens”. That is what Claim of Right, confirmed in Westminster 4th July this year says. That is the EU position on any decision reached on by legally agreed process.

That the UK government may huff and puff and bluff and even try to illegally prevent Scotland choosing its own future is without a doubt.
It may decide to stand in front of the world and expose itself as the failed and anti democratic state that it now is.

In the meantime the Scottish Goverment will follow all due process and go around Europe and the wider world explaining its position and making friends.
And prepare itself for the next move.

I make this committment to long suffering subscribers to this marvelous site.This is the last time I will react to any of your posts. I suggest everybody else makes the same decision

DerekM

Its a great idea Paul however it has one major problem and that is unfortunately a large majority of English people are political idiots,i do not say this on a whim because after nearly 3 years infiltrating their think groups i think i am qualified to issue such a statement.

After all the lies and rubbish thrown at them(both sides) i still see English people talking like they have the ability to decide the outcome of brexit by voting blue or red tory,one bunch want us out the other bunch want us in and the reality is they will get what their parliamentary sovereignty decides and if they think the red tories will help them then they are mugs the red tories will help the blue tories secure that parliamentary sovereignty for westminster.

Why do you think westminster does not like referendum it is because they are terrified that the English population might figure out the real English problem which is parliamentary sovereignty and do something about it.

But alas they are political idiots and will probably figure out in 20 years time like they always do what a complete shower of crooked bastards they have running the UK today and who use parliamentary sovereignty for their own criminal activities and to cover up said criminal activities essentially making them above the law.

Scotland cant wait 20 years so we will just need to throw England in the deep end and hope the people wise up and write a modern constitution for themselves the sovereign people of England before the crooks write one for them.

Hope they can swim 😉

Capella

Or the FM could just use the prerogative to repeal the Treaty of Union. Seems simpler. Apologies I forget who first posted this link, maybe Proud Cybernat?:

Note that under paragraph 2(1)(a) the Prerogative is expressly declared not to be reserved. Therefore there seems nothing in law to prevent the Scottish Government exercising their Prerogative powers to revoke the Articles of Union and hence the Act of Union!

But see the extensive comments below.

link to aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com

Surely it can’t be long now before the majority of Scots turn their back on this farce.

Bobp

Brian doonthetoon 12.48am. Completely agree, the SC is not fit for purpose and the Scottish law lords should refuse to recognise it.

Colin Alexander

Hamish100 said:
17 December, 2018 at 8:50 am

“You dont fool us”.

EVEL was announced the minute the NO vote win was announced. Clearly, it was PRE-PLANNED. EVEL made Scottish MPs second-class MPs at WM.

Devolution reduced the number of MPs at WM and robbed Scotland of hundreds of square miles of sea bed. For what? The Supreme Court has answered that: a subservient, WM branch office at Holyrood. The right to administer WM cuts to Scottish public services and take the blame for it.

The EU-ref treated the UK as a unitary state, not a Union of equal kingdoms, so again England decided.

Scottish politicians of all parties have glorified Holyrood. The SNP pretended it’s a Scottish Govt. The truth is it isn’t.

Holyrood is WESTMINSTER GOVT’S subservient branch office. The only sovereignty it represents is the sovereignty of UK Parliament over Scotland.

In the eyes of the law Holyrood is no more representative of Scotland’s people’s sovereignty than a local community council.

yesindyref2

@Colin Alexander “You show me the law that says the Scottish Parliament in law is entitled to hold an indyref.

It can seek the views of the people of Scotland, as per Section 102 paragraph 2 of the Scotland Act:

(2)Such a provision is to be read as narrowly as is required for it to be within competence, if such a reading is possible, and is to have effect accordingly.

A referendum Bill would not be interepreted in terms of section 29(2)(b) of the Scotland Act, nor in terms of s.29(3) – as long as it was so worded that it could be narrowly interpreted by the Courts.

And, of course, the recent UKSC ruling has fully supported that view – when the EU Continuity Bill was passed it was totally legal, bar the Section 17.

Ghillie

Tripe

Ghillie

Not you Yesindyref2 =)

Iain mhor

There does appear to be some ambiguity from Holyrood at the moment as mentioned ad-nauseum during all this Brexiting fiasco.
Campaigning and pushing for everything and anything ahead of Independence and Indyref2 appears very odd – At least that is the perception. The argument that the FM must govern for all of Scotland doesn’t hold much water. The point of being the party of government, is that you have the position to push your own agenda as priority over others. Or if it isn’t, I have seriously misread politics worldwide all my days.

There is another view that in order to push through one’s own agenda requires the subtle art of statecraft. Which isn’t really all that subtle. It’s really just child psychology;
Do not dictate your agenda for this invites refusal to comply.
Do not ask for their preferences for that reverses the balance of power and you lose control of the outcome.
Submit options of your choosing instead, thereby giving the illusion of free choice, autonomy and control,

Campaigning or pushing a purely Independence stance invites a refusal to comply. A Referendum is shifting the balance of power and loss of control. Presenting options you prefer retains control of the outcome and gives an impression of free choice.
So far, those options currently (via Holyrood) are “Remain in the EU in some form, or Independence” – Not “Remain or Leave the EU” and not “Leave the EU or Indy” Not an Indyref “What do you want?” – You get the idea.
The only way to push your preferred options is to be have them in the first place. Hence the campaigning on the “Remain in the EU in some form” agenda to place it on equal footing to Indy (which is a given agenda already) The only choices presented for consideration then excludes remaining in the UK.

The only flaw people seem to perceive with the current postion, is getting behind the Brexit ‘Peoples Vote’. That appears to have diluted and sidetracked the agenda, hijacked it. Well, no-one said statecraft and such ploys are exclusive to one side, Westminster can play the same game and are.
Note the presented options from them are “My deal and out of the EU or No Deal and out of the EU” a false choice but retaining control of the outcome. Unfortunately for them in this case, the options are far too similar. The “Peoples vote” is not to be considered by them due to the whole ‘losing control of the agenda and shifting the power balance. However, that particular narrative has one saving grace for Westmimster- it apparently undermines the Holyrood narrative of “EU or Indy” and puts it back to “Remain – Leave” where both choices are remaining within the UK.

On the horns of this dilemma dances the FM. How to regain the narrative and manipulate the choice back to EU or Indy?
The only way is to be a player. We make great store of “having a seat at the table” but the same goes for the game of politics, you have to be a player. So in order to shift the narrative back, the FM must be seen to engage the “Peoples Vote” but somehow shift the dialogue of choice to “In the EU or Indy”
This is not as difficult as it may appear, because that ‘Peoples vote’ has already ocurred in Scotland and Scotland is aware of the value of that vote – It has none. We didn’t get a lollipop and Westminster took away the possibility that we ever get to choose in a way which will ever get us a lolly.
So when the FM stands with the ‘Peoples Vote” the narrative is : “There is this option, which didn’t go well for you previously or you can consider Indy…” Too subtle really, but standing behind a “Peoples Vote” is pushing the Indy agenda. Pushing Trade deals and Efta’s and alternatives is ultimately controlling the choice. That choice will be “In the EU in some form or Indy” until Indy is the only choice to get what you want one way or another.

The observant will see the final flaw in the “Controlling the Choice” – A final Indy referendum. After all the work an Indy referendum would be relinquishing the control, the narrative and the power balance and asking the child what it wants.
The only way that can work, is if you are certain you have managed to manipulate the thinking, to ensure the outcome you want. That takes a lot of time and effort and is no guarantee, so it is no wonder there is an element which baulks at the thought of relinquishing ultimate control of the agenda. If there are other avenues, they should be pursued – a Referendum on Independence should be the last viable option – When the child is screaming for what you wanted all along.

That is one view.

geeo

Check the cheek of coco, demanding people “show me the law”…(claim of right is pretty clear coco, Scots are legally sovereign, so you tell me, how do YOUR LOT at WM, stop Sovereign Scots holding the thing which is the purest for of expression of said sovereignty, a plebiscite ?

Now, apart from that, where is your link to your claimed uk constitution you like to quote ?

Big on demanding answers, not so big on answering questions huh, coco ?

No more questions allowed from you until you start answering them.

Well ?

Bob Mack

Is anyone really surprised the Tories don’t want another referendum on brexit ? It is a golden opportunity for hardline Tory policy to be brought into force, including abolishing the NHS, low paid work , abolition of Health and safety regulations, etc, and all demanded by the British public, . The Tories could rightfully say the public knew what they voted for and the Tories were only delivering on that.

Never has a government or governments been handed a bigger stick to perform social restructuring to suit their own ends, and all backed by idiots with a vote for self harm.

Riots ? You demanded these things. Let us out please.

Capella

BBC Scotland top item on the website is train delays. They mention that it is a signaling fault that has caused the delay but forget to mention that signals are a Network Rail responsibility. Reserved.
See Network Rail on what they do about signaling faults:
link to networkrail.co.uk

You’d think the BBC could have looked that up themselves with all their highly paid executives running the operation.

Capella

@ Kenno – polite request – please, do not post racist comments on WoS. That could damage the reputation of the site and reflect badly on everyone else posting here.

Colin Alexander

yesindyref2

“when the EU Continuity Bill was passed it was totally legal, bar the Section 17”.

Aye. But what happened? The UK Parliament blocked it, because it can.

Would an indyref bill have the same outcome? We’ll need to wait and see.

Cubby

Brian Doonthetoon @1.05am

Yes just a typical bit of Tony Blair spin to get round the two legal system/Treaty of Union problem.

yesindyref2

@Capella
Hear hear!

The level of FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) is increasing on Wings, as is the attempts to stir up racial hate, anti-Englishness, anything that can decrease the support for Indy.

Good, it shows the Unionists know what’s coming and are getting desperate. Mundell is sending in all his reserves. Who are as competent as he is 😎

yesindyref2

Would an indyref bill have the same outcome? We’ll need to wait and see.

You might hope so, and YOU might need to wait and see.

ronnie anderson

Kenno re Cappella’s comment I share same sentiments . Substitute english for Westminster , many of us Scots have Family english born , leave that visceral hatred of other Nationalities to the likes of BNP .

geeo

The openly bigoted post above, by bigoted scumbag Kenno, has been reported, and i would urge people to do the same to ALL these clearly co-ordinated attempts to create anti english sentiments and try make wings look like it is anti english to casually site visitors.

It is up to us, the decent readers, to report these insidious attacks on this site’s reputation (which is the real motive here) to the only man who can suitably deal with them and stop their posts.

Cubby

Robert Peffers@9.14am

Sorry Mr Peffers you just proved what I said – England can not do a UDI either. I never said the UK parliament would declare England doing a UDI. Englands sovereign queen and its MPs can declare the treaty terminated. That is not UDI.

geeo

Come on coco, still waiting on your link to this fabled Uk constitution ?

Or you could just say that you are talking mince ?

No link = Coco talking mince.

Legerwood

Labour joins the Tories in selling out Scottish fishermen, and ensuring Holyrood has no say.

link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com

Legerwood

More on the Fisheries story. This time from the Highland Times

link to thehighlandtimes.com

Mr Craig Murray

I hope the Rev and readers will forgive me for leaving this here, but I seem to be under some form of social media ghosting at the moment.
link to craigmurray.org.uk

Besides it was inspired by a jog to my memory in a comment from Indyref2 here at the weekend.

Cubby

Colinshit/coco

You have posted a lot more of your crap since I asked you a question and I noticed geeo asked the same question.

So for the second time. First time – cubby @9.39pm

Where can I find where it says as you claim “the UK parliament is Supreme in the UK constitution” or is it just more Britnat assertion/ propaganda.

Kangaroo

Tackety breeks @ 7:51am

Credlin was ex Oz PM Tony Abbott’s press secretary. Abbott is a Londoner, Leaver, right wing nut, pal of bojo the clown. So you will notice the pro england stance from her commentary.

Deluded as they all seem to be. Dont give it any credibility at all. None.

Colin Alexander

The people of Scotland are legally sovereign. That sovereignty is represented by MPs at UK Parliament.

Prior to the Union that Scots sovereignty was exercised by Scots MPs at the old Scottish Parliament but the exercise of that sovereignty was transferred to UK Parliament.

So UK Parliament does not deny Scotland’s people have sovereignty; the UK state says: we have Scotland’s sovereignty at UK Parliament and exercise it on Scotland’s behalf.

So UK Govt now says: Scotland was given the option to take back exercising of sovereignty in Scotland and decided in 2014 that UK Parliament could keep it.

So, in my opinion the SNP were right for decades: if an absolute majority of Scotland’s MP’s were elected on a mandate to dissolve the Union they could.

The only bars to doing that is the current SNP’s indyref policy, and persuading enough people to vote for MPs to dissolve the Union, when the UK state propaganda machine churns out pro-Union lies with impunity and we rely on the likes of Wings or The National, which most voters don’t read.

But, we are where we are.

So, if indyref can be held and won and Scotland can win her freedom that way, Good. I want to see it happen but, I remain unconvinced by SNP strategy and explanations that it’s all SNP reverse psychology to achieve indy.

Time will tell.

Cubby

Is it just a coincidence that two of the very small number of countries that do not have a written constitution are two kingdoms.

UK

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

I am sure that there are people in Saudi Arabia thinking they do not want to be in such poor company.

Both countries promote it as a positive there is no written constitution. Wonder why?

ronnie anderson
Graf Midgehunter

I posted this on the last thread when most people were already on this one so probably went mostly unnoticed. It does however belong here with regard to England leaving as an alternative.

Apologies for a double take.
________________
It doesn’t look as if some in the EU really want the UK/England to stay in.

You got your opt-ins, opt-outs, special this and special that.
A gold plated membership card for trade with the EU, FTAs with a lot of the world and more in the pipeline..

The WM, Brit.Nat. clique are a pain in the a**e to most Europeans nowadays.
They’re not at all that keen on the UK revoking A50.

My German friends would take Scotland in with open arms.

A comment in a like way from Germany:
link to spiegel.de

schrodingers cat

impass

the dup hate treezas deal, it leaves ni in the sm/cu, which for unionists is a nightmare. killing treezas deal is their aim.

they could cross the floor and support corbyn’s VONC, and run a ge. however, that would hand treezas deal a lifeline not kill it, indeed, the deal is quite popular in ni, the dup could get punished in a ge in ni. treeza would then camoaign in the ge for her deal.

no, their best bet is to wait until treeza brings the deal to a vote in the hoc, where it will be defeated once and for all.

i doubt treeza will bring forward her deal in the certain knowledge it will be defeated, she will delay and threaten no deal.

which is the dup’s prefered brexit outcome. they supported leave remember.

lab/snp can moan all they like but without the dup and/or some tories to support a VONC, they are powerless to change this state of affairs

so enter treezas latest wheeze, a deal or no deal euref, this wont fly, but if brought forward i would imagine someone will put forward an ammendment for the option to remain. I am unsure of the hoc procedure to do this, or whether the ammendment would get enough support either. even if it did, it is uncertain the final bill for a 3 option euref would pass

cluster bourach is about right.

cath

A very sensible idea; makes perfect sense. Would also be interesting to see how people in England would vote if it was specifcally put to them in a referendum

Essexexile

Team leave would never stand for a 3 way vote which effectively splits leave and remain wins by default.
We are stuck I’m afraid and every day that brings us closer to what everyone has said is unthinkable – a no deal Brexit.
I’m beginning to have genuine fears of this actually happening to be honest. Where the UK starts to look like post Soviet Russia where everybody is worse off except a few ultra wealthy, unscrupulous chancers. Imagine a UK where your life is owned by Mike Ashley and you’re somewhere close. Post Brexit UK is a land of opportunity for these types and the ground under your feet will be sold off to the highest bidder.
Scotland needs out of it, and that will be night on impossible after March without surrendering a huge chunk of natural resources as a payment to leave.
I’ve always been of the opinion to trust in NS. I still am but I’d like some reassurance that things are happening behind the scenes to secure Scotland’s future.
Time for NS to start flexing her muscles I think.

schrodingers cat

supporting a peoples vote or stopping brexit has the widest support among scottish voters (69%), but it does undermine our push for independence. ONLY if this tact succeeds. this is the $1000 question

i cant see brexit being stopped, not when corbyn and treeza support brexit, it is a risky strategy by nicola, but a calculated one

at present, it is favourable to no voting remainers, but the polls are now showing that in the event of a no deal brexit, many no voting remainers will switch to yes (59%)

if a no deal brexit happens, then nicola will be vindicated

yesindyref2

1. The continental shelf of a coastal State comprises the seabed and subsoil of the submarine areas that extend beyond its territorial sea throughout the natural prolongation of its land territory to the outer edge of the continental margin, or to a distance of 200 nautical miles from the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured where the outer edge of the continental margin does not extend up to that distance.

UNCLOS PART VI CONTINENTAL SHELF Article76 “Definition of the continental shelf”

link to un.org

There is no question that Scotland would have full access to and rights over our Continental Shelf, our 200 nm EEZ, and the UK is a ratified signator to UNCLOS – the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The only question is the media line from the land border into the sea, and the intermediate 12nm one which follows different rules on perpendicularity.

yesindyref2

median, not media.

galamcennalath

“TOP STORIES
Brexit: No 10 says it will escalate planning for no deal – Politics live “

Why? Has no one explained ECJ ruling to them? A no deal crash and burn Brexit SHOULD NOT now be allowed to happen when they have a guaranteed straightforward alternative.

To maintain the democratic aspects of a unilateral cancellation they don’t need a ‘people’s vote’, they only need a free vote in parliament when the choice has been reduced to disaster versus common sense.

Proud Cybernat

Good article from Craig Murray:

The Scottish Parliament Does Have the Right to Withdraw from the Act of Union

link to craigmurray.org.uk

Macart

@yesindyref2

Pretty much. Scotland’s population could have a referendum any time they felt like it and as often as they felt like it.

Keeping it simple for folks though: The people of Scotland are sovereign. What they say goes. If a party is elected to power and seeks a specific mandate, and if that mandate is granted by the people, then that party and government can act.

A specific mandate was sought four years ago and denied. The government was instructed by a slim majority to act within the constraints of devolution. This they have duly done. In subsequent manifestos they have made it clear that only a significant movement or injury to the constitutional settlement or status quo by one party or events would allow them to revisit that result and seek a further mandate from ALL of the population. Once again they will act on the instruction they are given.

Right now they have a triple lock on the mandate to ask that question as and when they deem conditions have been met. As yet, we are still EU members.

They didn’t cause Brexit and they’re not responsible for being a devolved government. That’s on those folk who decided against independence last time out (whatever their reasoning).

If people are scared? Good! I’m scared too and they have every reason to be. How and ever, until pre conditions have actually been met and a mandate sought and given…

You get the picture.

Shug

See student loan debt is to be added to the national defect
Isupposescotland will get a share of that to go with hs2
Folk up here are so stupid it beggers belief

Jack Murphy

Thankyou Legerwood for your two Fisheries links this morning at approximately 11:15am.

Labour and Tory MPs join forces.

Worrying,very worrying.

Gfaetheblock

Schroddingers cat @ 12.45

I think that there is a danger that you are misreading the poll, if it was the panelbase one from earlier in the month. The question asked was

‘Do you believe Scottish independence or a no deal Brexit would be better for Scotland?’

There was nothing in that poll asking about voting intention, you could believe both are good or both bad, it just asks for a comparison between the two.

Apologies if it is another poll you are referring to

link to whatscotlandthinks.org

yesindyref2

@Macart
That’s the problem as well as the solution. So far the conditions of the mandate re the EU haven’t been met, though it’s quite arguable that in your words “a significant movement or injury to the constitutional settlement or status quo” has been done by Westminster, or at least, the UK Government.

Events are happening fast and furious, and perhaps soon that won’t be the only movie being located in Glasgow! (and other cities and towns and villages around Scotland).

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi yesindyref2.

RE: scottish maritime boundary.

See this pdf:”Prospective Anglo-Scottish maritime boundary revisited”, particularly pages 98 and 99. Available for download here:-

link to ejil.org

schrodingers cat

@Gfaetheblock

possibly, i didnt see the data sets

thing is, polls which ask questions in the form, if this then what?? are notoriously unreliable, indeed, many folk cant even recall who they voted for 10 months ago….

point i’m making is a no deal brexit will cause a swing from no to yes, the only real question is “by how much”

the polls have shown consistently between 4-12%, the exact figures are less important but the polls are beginning to show a trend

as we approch a no deal 29th march, there will be panic buying, shelves will be stripped, medicines run out etc, with many predicting the uk’s inability to stock the shelves back up……….???

you would be amazed how a bout of near starvation will focus peoples minds

Macart

@yesindyref2

And that’s the why of the can kicking. UK gov know that as soon as events settle or are firmed up there has to be a consequence. So long as they keep the ball in the air, process and procedure cannot be followed. They’re hoping to force or fake a fait accompli upon the populace of the UK in general and Scotland in particular.

I’d wish them luck with that, but… I’m not entirely sure people are buying their bullshit this time round. 😉

yesindyref2

@BDTT
Yup, I’ve read it. It seems very likely that the median line past the territoriral waters would form the basis, as in Line 2 or 3 of Map 1 on page 98 as you say. The idea of a “Common Area” would hopefully be avoided, as Westminster has shown itself to be totally intransigent in affairs of negotiation.

Goole maps shows clearly the situation with the coastline variations, looking from Peterhead to Berwick.

schrodingers cat

@macart

true, but the date 29th march will be difficult to kick down the road

any attempt by treeza to delay or revoke this date, rees mogg and co will cross the floor and support a VONC.

it wont be him or bojo that gets their jotters from the tory party members in the constituencies, it will be treeza and anna soubry