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Wings Over Scotland


Independence for England

Posted on December 16, 2018 by

The great frustration of the current Brexit shambles is that we’re being told there are no viable options. But that isn’t true. This site has already put forward one perfectly workable proposal, and here’s another.

Before the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence, Scotland was told that if they left the UK, they would automatically leave the EU, leaving the rUK as the successor European state.

Scotland, it was said, would be cast out of Europe, immediately and automatically and without negotiation. Brussels agreed with Westminster on this interpretation.

This outcome of independence was said by Westminster sources to be a legal certainty, with no possibility of avoiding the consequences of being bounced out of the EU. The EU could not rescue Scotland and no treaties would exist to do so.

And that leads to a logical conclusion: if England (and perhaps Wales) decided to leave the UK instead of Scotland, leaving Scotland as the successor state in the EU, the same would be true.

Independence for England (and Wales) solves many Brexiter problems at a stroke. What Scotland was threatened with in 2014 – immediate exclusion from the EU – could be achieved with no effort on their part, and without dragging any other UK nations along against their will.

The new unit could leave without any encumbrance, no obligations, no divorce payments and, importantly, no worries about any backstop or lengthy ties to European courts and regulations. We already know that most Leavers, and indeed most English people in general, would be happy with this arrangement.

Northern Ireland would have to choose its own destiny: stay in the “UK” with Scotland, join the New Britain of England and probably Wales (if they wanted it, which isn’t a given), or reuniting with the rest of Ireland. That’d be a pretty interesting referendum, but until such times as one was held NI would still technically be remaining in the UK, which would put the DUP in an intriguing and confusing spot.

We know from polling that Scottish voters could live with a border with New Britain better than Northern Ireland can with Ireland – although of course the UK is currently still insisting that unspecified technical solutions could solve this problem anyway.

(One of the great unspoken truths of the constitutional debate, incidentally, is that the Borders counties would love a new frontier. Oh, they might protest outwardly about the inconvenience, but would swiftly revert with delight to all the ancient practices of smuggling and border mischief that underlie the heritage of the Reiver lands.)

What’s attractive about this option is that no further EU referendum is required. It fulfils the referendum mandate for the UK to make the best leaving of the EU as can be managed while the remainder EU state of Scotland/NI tidies things up.

(There’d be some renegotiating of the new UK’s relationship with the EU to be done, of course, including remodelling of its financial contributions and representation to account for its much smaller size, but with both sides fundamentally wanting the same thing they shouldn’t be too unpleasant.)

For Leave-voting England and Wales, it solves all their problems, giving them freedom to immediately negotiate trade deals with whoever they want while losing the northern “awkward squads” at the same time.

Others will be sad but recognise that the parting of the ways was already implicit in the outcome of the EU referendum and an inevitable outcome of devolution of powers to the UK nations. The referendum seriously split the UK Remainer north from the Leaver south and nothing is likely to unite the two halves any time soon.

Reverse independence provides an elegant and quick solution for the parts of the UK that want to leave the EU to do so without hindrance, while the Remainer nations get their wish to stay and the Irish Question simply goes away.

(Unless NI wanted to go with England and Wales, but there would be no rational reason for it to do so – both of the other options avoid a hard border and avoid leaving the EU, and one of them would still constitute staying in the UK under the Queen, so would theoretically be sellable to Loyalists, or at least difficult to coherently oppose.)

The specific mechanism to achieve this result would be to withdraw the Article 50 notice that started the leaving negotiations. That removes the unwelcome current deal completely and returns the UK to normal membership of the EU. Westminster would then pass a law on behalf of England and Wales withdrawing from the 1707 Act Of Union, citing the Brexit vote in both nations as justification, and expressly noting that “the UK” now comprised Scotland and NI (subject to the latter’s decision).

Many would mourn the breakup of the UK as a state. However, all the nations would remain in the Union of the Crowns that began in 1603 and the emotional connection of a united kingdom, the united monarchy, would remain as before. After all, the current UK doesn’t hate Canadians or Australians.

The Queen would continue to enjoy her holiday home in the Highlands in the same way as many New Brits would keep theirs in Spain and France. Huge numbers of citizens would also acquire dual citizenship to retain family ties and easy passage between the nations, that principle having been established and agreed by both sides during the 2014 indyref.

The “meaningful vote” in Parliament could resolve the current impasse on Brexit and set this reverse independence in motion. SNP MPs would vote for it in a heartbeat, most Tories would probably go along with it, and a lot of Labour MPs in heavily Leave-voting constituencies would be given a way out of their current dilemma.

Scotland would remain in the Union of the Crowns and the Commonwealth with the other nations, Scottish soldiers will still play pipes and drums at Buckingham Palace. Lifelong friendship and family ties between the nations would continue to blossom in a new understanding.

New Britain would set about trading freely with the world and Scotland would enjoy becoming a normal small, inclusive, outward-looking nation in the EU. Northern Ireland would make its choice as to where it wanted to be in due time. (Both could welcome Remainer immigrants from England and Wales to a new life in a familiar land, boosting their economies.)

Everybody wins. Job done!

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    521 to “Independence for England”

    1. montfleury says:

      Obvious, pragmatic, therefore impossible.

    2. Croompenstein says:

      Perfect idea Paul, but… my precioussssss

    3. bobajock says:

      I feel I have seen this elsewhere, indeed many English people I know say the same (I’m half English). It would make sense, and result in a friendly separation, rather than something fought over.

      Of course, as a net contributor to London, we will never be let go willingly.

    4. A Bruce says:

      Interesting but doesn’t address the fact that England wants, indeed needs, Scotland’s resources or it goes bust.

      I’m no lawyer but the Act of 1707 was between Scotland and England. Westminster is the UK’s Parliament. Can the UK Parliament (in the absence of an English Parliament) withdraw from the Treaty?

    5. Lucia Daines says:

      Perhaps the SNP would care to state this in the House – be interesting to see what the reaction would be.

    6. Dan Huil says:

      Sounds good to me.

    7. Merkin Scot says:

      Pure dead brilliant, Rev.

    8. Ian Foulds says:

      Have been in favour of this for years

    9. msean says:

      Sensible proposal,but,too sensible for brexiteers.Also,Shrodingers Oil,what with the bad and good prices at the same time lol.

    10. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      A Bruce @ 14:27,

      Well, something of the kind (but then still outwith the EU) was done by the former Czechoslovakia, which fissured amicably by mutual agreement.

      And what is generally forgotten is that very situation was the precedent which most worried Fluffy in that infamous interview when the interviewer diverted him by asking him about “extinguished”. (To which, after some hesitation, he simply mumbled “yes”.)

      That dim acquiescence is what’s exclusively remembered and frequently reiterated, but it’s actually not what most concerned him. It was the precedent of a peaceful separation by agreement and its possible effect on the question of succession rights. The topic of the legal opinion then at the heart of the matter, and now the topic of the current article.

      With a very nifty reversal this time. I like!

    11. Buteman says:

      A Bruce are you forgetting EVEL?

    12. dakk says:

      Interesting out of the box thinking Stuart.

      It’s a non starter however for 2 reasons.

      The parasitic English state will never willingly give up control of Scotland’s vast resources.

      English exceptionalism would not countenance their shitty wee colony of Scotland being the UK successor state.

    13. Liam Coyle says:

      New Gaelic/Gallic ward courtesy of Irish accordion player Mairtin O’Connor, an amalgamation of the word Sasanach for Englishman and amach for out, so in GElic. Brixiteer is a Sasamach!

    14. Bobp says:

      Simply wont happen. Westminster need our resources.

    15. Ken500 says:

      A GE election soon. The SNP hold the balance of power? Westminster wants to hold on to 5.2million people but wants migration down to 10,000. Inconsistent.

      Independence for England and Wales. Brilliant.

    16. handclapping says:

      A Bruce @ 14:27

      Just to prove that point Hameron introduced EVEL after 2014 so yes the English and Welsh can sit as an E+W parliament and vote to withdraw from the 1706 Treaty.
      The Scots would get their voice as part of the UK Parliament Act for dismembering the Union unless they got a Section 30 to approve it.

      However it might not be a good idea for the Scots as they would become the ‘contiuing state’ and liable for Trident, the Security Council seat and the debt!

    17. handclapping says:

      continuing

    18. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Very sensible suggestion, which will, of course, never be acted on for two reasons:

      1. England needs Scotland’s resources, in particular our oil – they will never let us go because they need us.

      2. To even start negotiations, England would need to recognise Scotland as an equal partner in the Act of Union and in the negotiations. They will never do this, since they think they own us.

    19. Republicofscotland says:

      Great idea, alas Westminster will never go for it. Simply put they need Scotland for all sorts of reasons, oil, gas, Trident, illegal wars cannon fodder etc.

    20. I’ve been asking English folks why they’re so terrified of independence, for years.

      Minor point about your solution…

      Shouldn’t the independent English/Welsh state be known as ‘Former United Kingdom, Elizabeth Regina’, or ‘FUKERs’ for short?

    21. wull2 says:

      As long as they allow postal votes, I have many friends down South that will allow me to use them as a postal address.

    22. Muscleguy says:

      @A Bruce
      EVEL surely takes care of that one. It could be slightly relaxed to let Welsh MPs vote and I’m sure the SNP would happily sit that one out though the Yoon MPs would grump and cry about it but the Tories wanted EVEL so there.

      The question becomes then is there a majority of English and Welsh MPs who would vote to void the Act of Union? I very much doubt it, both Labour and the Tories claim to be UNIONIST parties. The FibDems would simply be noises off bleating about Federalism Tomorrow.

      The Bain Principle would hold strong on this and any such proposal would fail, sadly. But creating an English (and Welsh) parliament is not that hard with EVEL on the statute books.

      I’m quite sure the current makeup of Holyrood would vote in agreement quite happily too.

    23. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Now then, peeps.

      Credit the actual author!

      Nice one, Paul Millar! The English people would probably go for it; the establishment would fight it tooth and nail, because of our resources.

    24. The flaw might be that The Establishment and the English Parliament wouldn’t want to lose Scotland’s resources and wealth.

    25. Macart says:

      Y’see, that’s yer problem right there. It’s a pragmatic and practical solution. 🙂

      Neatly done Paul Millar.

    26. Ken says:

      Hi, A Bruce.

      The answer to that is: EVEL.

      The UK Parliament sometimes sits as an English Parliament.

      So no problem at all.

      A Bruce says:
      16 December, 2018 at 2:27 pm
      I’m no lawyer but the Act of 1707 was between Scotland and England. Westminster is the UK’s Parliament. Can the UK Parliament (in the absence of an English Parliament) withdraw from the Treaty?

    27. Thepnr says:

      A fun idea but one that would never be entertained in England. Scotland (maybe with NI) as the continuing state would not only keep UK membership of the EU but the responsibility for every other International treaty also and England/Wales turfed out.

      So Scotland would be in Nato, England and Wales out, Scotland would take over the UK’s permanent seat at the UN Security Council etc.

      To be honest I wouldn’t fear a clean break, it could cause some short term pain such as being out of the EU temporarily but no matter what, an Independent Scotland will have to at some point, negotiate terms in International Treaties that are suitable for Scotland.

      That’s all of them, might as well get these things done beginning negotiations right at the start of Independence and using a clean sheet of paper as the starting point.

    28. Andy Anderson says:

      Even if this was a goer we would have division in Scotland because only 50% want independence meaning 50% of us would be pissed off.

    29. remo says:

      Brilliant.

    30. One of the hundred says:

      Ridiculous proposal.
      So England/Wales would leave the UK?
      Leaving Scotland and NI as the successor state with £2Trillion of debt, the nukes, Royal Navy, massive military, UN security council membership, the Falklands, Gibraltar, dependent territories, all UK treaties, consulates, bbc etc?
      No chance. How do you think 7 million of us in rUK will deal with that?
      Completely ridiculous.
      We leave the UK.
      We leave them.

    31. Colin Alexander says:

      The UK isn’t going to give up it’s northern colony.

      India had Ghandi who led resistance to British rule in colonial India.

      We have SNP administrators of British rule in colonial Scotland.

    32. Geordie says:

      It’s a genuinely magnificent proposal, one I’d grab in a heartbeat. BUT…we all know it’ll never happen unless it’s launched via a sustained co-ordinated public campaign. Stu, you’re in a position of significant influence, why don’t you kickstart this? I’d willingly donate to a crowdfunder that pushes media adverts, spokespeople and a ruddy great petition calling for English Independence. The English voters would lap it up.

    33. Clapper57 says:

      @Bobp @ 3.08pm

      Exactly Bobp.

      However remember how some said that in last Scottish Indy referendum in 2014 that England should also have gotten a vote in that referendum as affected them too.

      That would have never happened .

      Unionist MP’s would then have been in the awkward position of having to present an economic argument to the English people for Scotland remaining part of UK…..irony overload…..when one thinks of how for years they, the Unionists, have presented Scotland as freeloaders in ‘their’ union.

      Also sentimental reasons would not have been enough for the English people to have wanted Scotland to remain in the UK…..the Unionists , who have diminished Scotland’s economic contribution within UKOK , would have reaped what they had sown.

      As to present day everybody would indeed win if the English people decide now is the time for them to go it alone…after all have they not been told for years by the Unionists that they, the English, hold all of the power and the wealth within UKOK .

      They are the many and we are the few so why can they not be strong and stable and just decide to have their ‘real independence’.

    34. Ian McGeechan says:

      There’s just the problem of the successor state carrying the bulk (all) of the UK debt.
      That would need to be negotiated and agreed upon before anything else could be considered.

    35. James Kerins says:

      I had an idea many years ago (30 or so) to form an English Independence Party. Coming from Glasgow it would have been a bit of a stretch but I was in London at the time and I think I could have got it to work.
      Selling independence to the English was always going to be easier than to the Scots.
      The next morning after my hangover cleared I put it down to the ale and thought no more about it.
      What a pity.

    36. Proud Cybernat says:

      Yes Trident, UN Sec Council, NATO, FCOs, National Debt, Bank of England etc would ‘normally’ (there’s that word again) revert to the continuing UK i.e. Scotland & possibly N.I.

      But surely after a vote by England (& possibly Wales) to ‘withdraw’ from the Treaty of Union, all these matter are up for negotiation with the successor UK state? Surely it would not be beyond the wit of man that we could come to an amicable settlement on the division/ownership of all of these?

    37. The English claiming a UDI from UK,

      good for us good for them,

      the britnats in Scotland would commit harakiri.

    38. Futaie says:

      Surely the EU would fund a bridge from Scotland to NI if NI go along with this?

    39. Dr Jim says:

      Put it on the front page of the Daily Mail and England would vote for it, however it will and would never see the light of day on pain of death to any British politician who dared to voice such a proposition because they can count contrary to what they tell the poor English folks about subsidising us moany faced Scots they know England wold be in such serious financial stress it would bring their house down

      As I said though Mr and Mrs average English Joe and Joan would likely go for this big time because they once again haven’t been told the financial consequences of what they think they vote for, and by the way English folks who might be reading this, it’s not that up here in Scotland we think you’re all daft we just know you’re all being lied to by the one political party you think are two political parties

      Up here in Scotland we discovered Tory and Labour are the same party, oh, nearly forgot the Fib Dems there, well you already know about them

      Have you never noticed England that no matter which party you vote for it always ends up the same result and never what you thought you voted for on what they told you

      That’s the reason for an SNP Scottish government we do it deliberately because they are in fact a Scottish party and not a British one, so you folks in England should get yourselves an English party for your country, everybody happy!

    40. Pedro says:

      Great solution Paul – and wouldn’t it be funny to see the establishment and it’s media trying to rationalize holding on to Scotland whilst pushing the subsidy junkie myth.

      O/T but re the Cactus criticism on the previous thread, I posted for the first time a couple of days ago and who was the first to welcome me aboard? Yes, you’ve guessed – Cactus. Many thanks to him and also to Liz G who answered my question.

    41. Craig P says:

      So we keep Gibraltar, Falklands, the nukes and the UN veto?

    42. Thepnr says:

      O/T Full interview by Sky’s Sophy Ridge with Nicola Sturgeon available from 13:35 minutes in.

      https://news.sky.com/video/sophy-ridge-on-sunday-jo-johnson-and-nicola-sturgeon-talk-brexit-11583092

    43. Tatu3 says:

      In the uk, but mainly England 52% voted leave, 48% voted remain. Mrs May fights for the majority.
      In Scotland 62% voted remain, 38% voted leave. Why is Ms Sturgeon not fighting for our majority? Some say she has to think of the 38% too. Why?
      If she has a plan, I’m not suggesting she even so much as hints to the “enemy” what it is, but her troops are very much in need of a boost, a pep talk, a sign that she IS fighting for the majority.
      Because at the moment it doesn’t seem as if we, the majority, are being considered at all.

    44. Bobp says:

      Careful tatu3, you’ll be accused by some on here of being a troll.

    45. Douglas says:

      I have wondered about this. In conversations with British Nationalists in England, some seemed to like the idea. Strangely, they warmed to the ‘you didn’t dump me, I dumped you’ narrative.

      Unfortunately, it would be very difficult because of the resources (oil has actually been a curse -if we as much of a basket case as they make out we would have been out long ago) and the colonies.

      The rUK led by Scotland would be encumbered with an ethical outlook that it has not previously troubled it.

      The crown dependencies are an important tax dodges for the powerful people who would decide. They wouldn’t tolerate any risk to their scams.

      The nuclear weapons are another problem, decommissioning would be very positive but hard to sort.

      I do like the possibility of final decolonisation… but some colonies are fiercely British despite how much trouble and cost it causes.

      The national debt would need division, I’m not sure England would feel inclined to take it’s share.

    46. Clapper57 says:

      My last comment at 3.49 meant to be at end of last sentence.

      ” real independence DAY”

      Independence day being the mantra of Brexiteers such as Farage and co. on day after , and subsequently, EU referendum.

    47. galamcennalath says:

      From a Scottish perspective it does indeed make prefect sense.

      However, from London, huge numbers of people from politicians down to ordinary voters would have real difficulty getting their head round it!

      GB=UK=England=Britain is an engrained worldview which will be very hard to break!

      There would have to be a lot of head scratching!

      I think it might work particularly well if there were generous relocation grants available. Those with strong allegiance with England could relocate there from Scotland and NI. Similarly, folks who valued their European identity or recent immigrants who worried about a future in an ethnicity obsessed England, would be welcome to move to Scotland or possible Ireland.

      The more you explore the idea, the better it sounds!

    48. Dr Jim says:

      @Thepnr

      After watching the FM in that clip it’s no wonder many people in England would like to have a straight talking politician like what we’ve got up here in lil old Jockland

    49. wullie says:

      So how to get this message across to the people of England and turn the tables on unionists

    50. velofello says:

      A neat solution in principle but Westminster’s inherit possessive nature would be an obstacle to leaving EU membership to Scotland even although Westminster wants to leave the EU.May’s my “precious UK” you can read as Scotland’s precious resources.

      For me another objection would be continuing with the royals. That the Queen signed off the law that scuppered the Scottish parliament’s Continuity Bill was a disgrace. The Queen is no friend of Scotland in my view, and yet she. and her family, are a cost to Scotland.

    51. Bobp says:

      Good point dr jim 4.01pm.Its what i always say to people down ‘sarf’here. Get yourselves a proper democratic English party to vote for. Not tory, not labour, not lib dems, not ukip.

    52. Glamaig says:

      The most entertaining thing about this idea is that to argue against its impeccable logic is to expose the fact that the ‘Union’ is a lie and always has been.

      The Union is effectively the English establishment controlling the rest of these islands (with the honourable exception of RoI, and it seems they still havent quite come to terms with that).

    53. Dr Jim says:

      Ian Duncan Smith says “If the EU want a deal they better damn well step up to the plate”
      As long as England has politicians like this they’re doomed

      The loss to the EU of the UK Brexit I think is around 8% or so of damage to the EU
      The loss to the UK is beyond imagining it’s a virtual armageddon

    54. Garrioch David says:

      Ye’r definitely thinking out of the box !

    55. Terence callachan says:

      Blah de blah de blah blah blah
      Get a grip , you go on about this is unfair that is unfair unfair unfair unfair blah blah blah but when the most unfair subject crops up ,
      English people
      your colonisers
      The people that cram unfairness into every nook and cranny of your life
      you say
      oh but we must be fair to the English
      talk about dumb and dumber

      English folk being given a vote on Scottish independence allows them to keep you subjugated
      You will always be subjugated because they have sixty million people and can increase the number of them living in Scotland whenever they want to

      You are in with a chance of persuading the “proud Scots but” to change their mind but you will never ever ever ever ever change English people because they already think you are part of England they are fighting to retain what they think they already own, they think you are trying to take a bit of their Britain , Englands Britain.

      England is a great country it is powerful make no mistake about that, they have a history second to none.
      English people are ….well….just people ….same as people anywhere else in the world ,good bad indifferent.
      English people living in Scotland should only get a vote on Scottish independence if they were born here or if one of their parents was born here or if they can PROVE that they have lived in Scotland continuously for at least five years.
      Allowing English people who were not born here who’s parents were not born here, who have only lived here a day or a week or a month or a year etc , to vote on Scottish independence is the most unfair thing of all it diminishes the importance of Scotland as a country it diminishes the status of Scottish people it’s a travesty of justice and fairness.
      England as a country makes all the laws for uk and excluded EU citizens from voting on Brexit
      Any person applying for a passport to live in England had to either show that they were born in England or one of their parents was born in England or they have to have lived continuously in England for five years, one more thing they have to do is take nationality and sit a test to show they know stuff like when the queen was born and how many Lords their are in the House of Lords etc the life in the uk test ludicrous and they talk about fairness ?
      And you lot support their arrogance.

    56. Cubby says:

      It’s long overdue that England stands on its own two feet and stops looting other countries wealth. Is over 300 years of plundering the worlds resources not enough for England?

      It’s funny how Westminster tells the English they subsidise Scotland to the tune of £13 to 15 billion per annum but there is no English independence movement to get rid of the burden of carrying Scotland/Wales/NIreland. Funny that since they really really object to subsidising the EU. Perhaps deep down they know that the subsidy is all a lie but won’t admit it.

      Westminster trying to bully Russia and the EU at the same time. What a bunch of clowns.

    57. Donald Bruce says:

      I wonder if England was to have an independence vote the Scots MP would say they can not have one. Also would the English belive us when we told them they are too wee and too small to be an independent nation without Scotland. Does seem odd when you apply same arguments toEngland which is used at Scotland.

    58. geeo says:

      @tatu3: You came out with this !
      …….

      1. “Why is Ms Sturgeon not fighting for our majority”?
      ……..

      2. “Some say she has to think of the 38% too. Why”?
      ……….

      3. “If she has a plan, I’m not suggesting she even so much as hints to the “enemy” what it is”
      ………”

      4. “but her troops are very much in need of a boost, a pep talk, a sign that she IS fighting for the majority”.
      ………..

      5. “Because at the moment it doesn’t seem as if we, the majority, are being considered at all”.
      ………..
      ………..

      1. Emm…she IS fighting for the majority, she won a legal mandate to hold an indyref in 2016 to protect Scots and Scotland from Brexit. Timing is the only remaining issue.
      ………

      2. Nicola Sturgeon is FM of SCOTLAND not the FM of the SNP, she represents ALL Scots.
      ………

      3. Hold on, you dont think she has a plan (see 1. above) but if she does, you do not want her to “even so much as hint..as to what it is” !!

      So…how do you square that comment with point 1,4 and 5 ?
      ……….

      4. (See points 1,3, and 5)!!!
      ……….

      5. How do you expect to know if the majority are being considered if you do not want the FM to “even so much as hint..as to what it is” !!
      ……….

      You really need to have a wee think before posting such contradictory nonsense.

      Yiu might as well have witten, “FM…TUESDAY….APPLES”

      That at least makes sense in some context, like if Nicola goes shopping on Tuesday and needs apples.

    59. Terence callachan says:

      So now instead of telling the English people who live in Scotland that they do not get a say in Scottish independence
      We should to try and persuade England to have their own independence referendum

      Yes yes yes ask permission from England or ask them to do what we are too frightened to do ourselves
      If England had a referendum on English independence would they let EU citizens vote ? OF COURSE NOT

      If England had a referendum on English independence would they let Scottish people vote ? OF
      COURSE NOT

    60. Cubby says:

      Scot Finlayson @3.56pm

      Sorry Scot but England can no more do a UDI than can Scotland.

      For Wales and N. Ireland, on the other hand, UDI is the appropriate term.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      Wait a minute!

      Do we keep the UN security seat?

      Do we get the 11ish overseas territories? Perhaps they should vote on who they want to go with.

    62. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@3.45pm

      Colinshit

      You are starting to rival Rockshit for the title of the most boring repeat Britnat posts on Wings.

      Give it a rest you diddy.

    63. Cubby says:

      Andy Anderson@3.43pm

      In case you haven’t noticed you describe the current situation.

    64. Ian Foulds says:

      wullie says:
      16 December, 2018 at 4:39 pm
      So how to get this message across to the people of England and turn the tables on unionists.

      There is an English Independence site, I believe.
      https://twitter.com/EnglishIndParty

      Maybe we could point this article to them?

    65. Sinky says:

      Somethings never change. Channel Four evening news includes Nicola Sturgeon calling on Labour to put down vote of no confidence on Uk Gov.
      BBC no mention of Scotland’s First Minister

    66. John McInnes says:

      And the Euro waives the 39 billion?

    67. ROBBO says:

      All appears plausible but hold on what about the £2trn debt that the present Uk Has accepted responsibility for?

    68. Clootie says:

      You forgot property law. Scotland belongs to England and has to do what it is told … Willie Rennie will obey. So will the other Unionist sheep. Even Labour will not abstain or wait when it comes to support for their masters.This gives new meaning to “follow, follow”.

      Please get off your knees Scotland!

    69. Cubby says:

      Marr interviewing Fox – two Britnat Scots discussing the will of the people re Brexit. Not one word from either of the two Britnats about the will of the Scottish people. Fox by omission denying the Scots sovereignty.

      Are Fox/Marr Scottish – no chance – a couple of chancers. People like them turn my stomach. A pair of English arse lickers.

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      Eddie Lizard would be like “England, please don’t go”.

    71. Corrado Mella says:

      That’s a neat idea, on paper, to resolve the constitutional question.

      However the England & Wales socioeconomic basket case cannot afford to let Scottish resources go.

      Besides many other disadvantages, Independent England & Wales would have to pay £££Bn to light and heat their homes, as they’re completely dependent on Scottish power, oil, coal and gas.

      This would disproportionately hit the poor in those countries: we Scots are not the type of people that threaten others while in need.

      Ww should continue to generously support and subsidise independent England and Wales, on condition they get shot of the BritNazi Establishment and all the tax dodging, xenophobic, sociopathic, warmongering scum that’s infesting all of our countries.

      Close the House of Lords, tabula rasa at Westminster, Salford, Whitehall and all ganglia of cancerous power infecting our society.

      Kick out of any country anyone that stashed money in a tax haven rather than investing or spending it to make something better.

      Move with us towards a society where everyone understands that you don’t live on isolation, but everything that you do and everything you fail to do, affects everyone else, every time.

      The Butterfly Effect is not just a movie. It’s how everything works.

    72. vlad (not that one) says:

      @Scot Finlayson 15:56
      The English claiming a UDI from UK, good for us good for them,the britnats in Scotland would commit harakiri.
      I doubt it. History suggests they would immmediately become the most fervent Scottish independistas.

    73. Colin Alexander says:

      Geeo said: “1. Emm…she IS fighting for the majority, she won a legal mandate to hold an indyref in 2016 to protect Scots and Scotland from Brexit. Timing is the only remaining issue.”

      The evidence that timing is the ONLY issue? Which begs another question:

      Is it a “legal” mandate?

      Or is it a political mandate, which is a convention like Sewel?

      I ask, because the Supreme Court has ruled established conventions like Sewel are legally worthless when it comes to Scotland, so don’t expect the convention of political mandate to be respected by our British rulers either.

    74. Street Andrew says:

      Spot on. I’ve been saying this for months, but nobody listens to me, either.

      The flaw in this solution is that the Brexit prospectus is built on lies and fantasy so rational proposals don’t apply.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      “Twaddle”

      Tha’s what I thought you said.

    76. jfngw says:

      I think now we are pretty near a crunch point regarding the welfare of Scotland. There has to be some plan for Scotland outside Brexit. Theresa May has been given enough time to produce some solution, and we need to know how this will pan out for Scotland.

      A provisional date for a referendum needs to be announced sooner rather than later. If there is no plan to keep Scotland in the CU & SM by this date then a referendum should proceed. Unless they have some other as yet unreported strategy that can stop Scotland’s EU exit.

      I sound impatient but there are a lot of people becoming very concerned for themselves and their children’s future. We can’t keep them dangling on a string forever.

      Just to add, I’m not interested in the outcome for the SFF, they appear to be a Tory group, run by someone from Ulster, that bends with the Conservative party. There are other fishing groups that are anti-Brexit (although this seem to be unknown by the BBC, who seem to run an almost daily ‘what’s the SFF opinion’ story, in fact I’m more likely to the SFF on Rep Scot that a SNP MP on QT).

    77. jfngw says:

      Would we need to send, Neil Oliver and that fire risk woman to ask them to ‘lead us not leave us’. Jim Murphy could do his egg routine in London. The scope for amusement is endless.

    78. Iain mhor says:

      Logical, well thought out and simply explained.
      Taking Occam’s Razor to a Gordian Knot.
      Therefore, it will never be contemplated far less comprehended.
      That is a dangerous, dangerous concept to float before the electorate of England…
      Good God man – They might demand it!

    79. wullie says:

      I did read somewhere many years ago that there is a Scottish nationality law.
      You have to be born in Scotland of Scottish born grandparents.
      true or false I have no idea

    80. Breeks says:


      Republicofscotland says:
      16 December, 2018 at 3:18 pm
      Great idea, alas Westminster will never go for it.

      If Scotland was to get its Constitutional Sovereignty sorted out, divide UK Sovereignty and unilaterally revoke Scotland’s Article 50, Westminster wouldn’t be able to stop us, and furthermore, the onus for terminating the UK Union would fall on Westminster’s positive action to leave, not Scotland’s passive refusal to leave with them.

      If Scotland takes charge of sovereignty, Scotland takes charge of Brexit.

      Revoke Scotland’s Article 50. Our Sovereignty provides us with an immediate failsafe and Scottish Backstop.

      You’re right, why would Westminster go for it? Good question. Quid pro quo. What on Earth made Westminster think Scotland was going to go for Brexit?

    81. Iain says:

      Great idea, solves loads of problems.
      Let the brexters know and it will happen.
      Spread the word folks!

    82. Iain says:

      As far as to the viability of the Trident missile system, it is already obsolete as Chinese spy satellitescan already track Trident submarines.
      So there’s no point in keeping an obsolete system.

    83. Al Ba says:

      Well, Cubby, he’s a Glasgow lad, check this > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Marr

    84. Glamaig says:

      wullie at 6:35 pm

      if I was born to my granny that would mean there was something seriously distasteful going on my family

    85. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Wullie

      I think you are referring to eligibility to represent national sporting teams.

      People:
      1. botn in Scotland
      2. whose parents were born in Scotland
      or 3. who had at least one grand-parent born in Scotland
      are eligible to be selected for Scotland’s national teams.

    86. K1 says:

      ‘Fun’ idea no doubt. Complete non starter as most have pointed out.

      And on that note, no matter how many conundrum solvers anyone of us can come up with…we are not dealing with reasonable and rational people in UK gov context.

      If they were even remotely interested in any solution to their xenophobic issues they would have come up with the atl solver before even having an EU ref.

      They will never let Scotland go. We have to take Scotland out of the UK ourselves.

    87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Corrado Mella @ 18:12:

      Ww should continue to generously support and subsidise independent England and Wales, on condition they get shot of the BritNazi Establishment …

      Oh, for goodness’ sake, not another mad Bella type who thinks Scotland should somehow lead the UK to a new Nirvana, despite all evidence to the contrary. It’s never going to happen in a month of Sundays. The English political establishment doesn’t give a toss about what we think and it’s as plain as daylight in the Sahara at high noon.

      For the sake of our sanity and our financial wellbeing, we need to abandon this ship of fools, and the sooner the better. The shock of our leaving is probably the only thing that will bring about a serious reform of the English political system. By leaving we will serve them best too.

    88. galamcennalath says:

      BBC article …. “What can New Zealand teach us about Brexit?”

      No sense of irony or self awareness! What it should teach everyone in Scotland is small independent nations can exist successfully without their bigger neighbour making all the big decisions on their behalf!

      It’s like that shit where fool Cameron talked about Norway!

    89. Dr Jim says:

      England has to commit to its own doom before Nicola Sturgeon can offer the alternative choice to Scotland, that’s the mandate she has

      Independence with Scotland or Doom with England

      Bit of a no brainer really

    90. Clapper57 says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland @ 6.57pm

      Well said Robert…as per usual.

    91. Dr Jim says:

      @Corrado Mella

      And do we keep them in line using Gort the interplanetary robot policeman or do we just say please gonnae not be dupicitous Bastirts anymore and be nice and kind

      Aye yer right that’ll work

    92. Legerwood says:

      Sinky says:
      16 December, 2018 at 5:42 pm
      “”Somethings never change. Channel Four evening news includes Nicola Sturgeon calling on Labour to put down vote of no confidence on Uk Gov.
      BBC no mention of Scotland’s First Minister””

      I saw a clip of the FM’s Sky interview on the BBC News tonight. Cannot remember if it was the main news at 5.35pm or Reporting Scotland immediately after.

    93. Bill Hume says:

      I’ve just realised that I don’t give a F**k if England wants to leave the EU.
      It’s not my fight.

    94. geeo says:

      No Coco, it is legal.

      It was a mandate given by the legally Sovereign Scots People.

      You just stick to slavering and wiping.

    95. Luigi says:

      Leave?
      What’s all this about “leave”?

      We don’t leave anything. If Scotland (or England) votes for independence, the union is dissolved. Finito. No UK to leave, my fiends. 🙂

      I still think that English nationalism is going to play a big part in the eventual breakup of the UK. Don’t know how, don’t know when, but I can feel it in me bones.

    96. ronnie anderson says:

      In ending the Treaty of the Union & becoming Independent , those people advocating that we should take all the detritus from england , in letters writ large YOU,S KIN AW FUCK OFF

    97. Glamaig says:

      somebody on another thread mentioned BBC having an unfair share of Scotlands media.

      Heres someone taking legal action on that very thing

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17301085.independent-tv-producer-in-effort-to-stop-new-bbc-scotland-news-service/

    98. Luigi says:

      Not sure about “successor states, but if either Scotland or England broke the union, a completely new UK would have to be formed (and recognised by the UN). If folk were inclined, that is. 🙂

    99. X_Sticks says:

      Great idea Paul. Just too damn smart by half.

    100. Dr Jim says:

      Mike Russell exposes Adam Tomkins as a liar and a propagandist in the Holyrood chamber by quoting his own blog at him

      It’s in the National, lovely

    101. ronnie anderson says:

      Dear Santa a’ve never wrote ah letter tae U in ma puff an ah hiv two front teeth so ah hud nae need tae git anither two fur christmas , onnyhows aw ah want fur christmas is Total Independence nae need tae wrap it in in fancy paper n tinsel n fairy lights ah’ll take it the noo, am no intae aw that falderal a la la la .

      Thanks Santa .

    102. Colin Alexander says:

      geeo

      Are we back to name calling? I thought Cubby had taken over the Wings playground bully role and you were now debating without childish insults.

      The highest court in the UK, the Supreme Court, has just ruled UK Parliament is sovereign and the Scottish Parliament is not. That the sovereign Scots vote in that Scottish Parliament means NOTHING to the Supreme Court.

      The UK Parliament is supreme in the UK constitution and for as long as Scotland remains under that constitution it is the law of the UK that UK Parliament can ALWAYS overrule the Scottish Parliament, just because it can.

      It didn’t rule on whether the people of Scotland are ultimately sovereign.

      It did rule that the Scottish Parliament can be overruled by the supreme UK Parliament.

      So, if the Scottish Parliament legislates for indyref, UK Parliament, such as the unelected Lords, could legislate to say any indyref is unlawful.

      That is not an attack on the sovereignty of Scotland’s people from me.

      I am simply saying the law would not recognise Scottish sovereignty expressed via the not-sovereign, subservient Scottish Parliament if it’s in conflict with the sovereign UK Parliament.

      Just because Winnie Ewing called it the “Scots Parliament reconvened” didn’t make it true. The current Scottish Parliament is a WM branch office. The Supreme Court confirmed that.

      So, I doubt there is any legal right to indyref in UK law.

      Of, course I would love the courts to decide I am wrong and establish there is a legal right to indyref2. That is a question the Scottish Govt and UK Govt dodged in 2014, so all we have is the Supreme Court ruling on the CB and our opinions about indyref2.

    103. ronnie anderson says:

      Dear Santa
      A’ve never wrote ah letter tae U in ma puff an ah hiv two front teeth so ah hud nae need tae git anither two fur christmas , onnyhows aw ah want fur christmas is Total Independence nae need tae wrap it in in fancy paper n tinsel n fairy lights ah’ll take it the noo, am no intae aw that falderal a la la la .

      Thanks Santa .

    104. Philip Maughan says:

      After Liam Fox (on BBC Andrew Marr Show) gave as his first reason for being against a ‘People’s Vote’ was that it would open the door to Nicola Sturgeon insisting on another Indyref, I think many English people (both Brexiters and PV adherents) would be more than happy to be rid of Scotland.

    105. Pete Barton says:

      Anyone seen Angus Robertson’s Twitter via the Rev?
      https://mobile.twitter.com/heuteshow

    106. Pete Barton says:

      Oops…not very good at this copy lark..
      Someone help me out here please?

    107. cynicalHighlander says:

      Terence callachan

      Simple because England is largely racist brought about by their empire ruling arrogance, Scotland never has although some Scots agree with England.

    108. Pete Barton says:

      @Cearc

      Thankyou so much!

      50 shades of May…

      Where did I get the idea from that German people have little sense of humour??

    109. Dr Jim says:

      Liquid Brexit….good one!

    110. sassenach says:

      The world and his wife must be convulsed with laughter at the ‘Britnat’ way of approaching serious negotiations.

      Get me out of this shambles – PLEASE!

    111. Dr Jim says:

      Apparently Jeremy Corbyns hand is going to be forced
      I would suggest they leave his hand alone, we can all see it’s working fine

    112. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dr Jim –

      Corbyn’s hand is going to be forced where exactly?

      😉

    113. Rock says:

      England is guaranteed to become independent of Scotland – in 2640 AD.

      311 years as a colony gone, only 622 more to go.

      Cheer up folks.

    114. Colin Alexander says:

      The final conclusion of today’s blog from Craig Murray:

      “Sturgeon should be working for nothing else but Scottish Independence, which is the way to honour Scotland’s clear vote to Remain”.

      I agree.

    115. Cubby says:

      Colinshit@8.03pm

      “The UK parliament is supreme in the UK constitution ” want to point out where this is?

      ” Of course I would love the courts …….. @ aye right – phoney independence supporter.
      .

    116. Cubby says:

      Rockshit = Colinshit = phoney independence supporters posting boring Britnat crap.

    117. Rock says:

      cynicalHighlander says:
      16 December, 2018 at 8:34 pm

      “Simple because England is largely racist brought about by their empire ruling arrogance, Scotland never has although some Scots agree with England.”

      Scots enthusiastically “punched beyond their weight” during the “empire ruling arrogance”.

      Not “some Scots” but a majority voted to remain with England in 2014.

      In this context, I consider the 500,000 or more English settlers and English second home owners who had the right to vote as “Scots”.

    118. Rock says:

      Rock says:
      16 December, 2018 at 9:45 pm

      cynicalHighlander says:
      16 December, 2018 at 8:34 pm

      “Simple because England is largely racist brought about by their empire ruling arrogance, Scotland never has although some Scots agree with England.”

      For the record, I do not consider the 500,000 or more English settlers and English second home owners who had the right to vote in Scotland’s independence from England to be racist.

      Having lived in Scotland, I believe they have become as non-racist as the Scots.

    119. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 9.31

      Yep. That is exactly what she is doing – though you obviously don’t understand the nuances.

    120. Rock says:

      Cubby says:
      16 December, 2018 at 9:44 pm

      “Rockshit = Colinshit = phoney independence supporters posting boring Britnat crap.”

      When did you start posting here Cubby, dear?

      Rock (22nd May 2014 – “Book smart, street stupid”):

      “Stuart,

      I really like the way you expose these liars and hypocrites, without mincing your words, no matter whether they are Professors or lesser idiots.

      It would be excellent for the independence cause if your articles were being published in paper form with a wide distribution to the general public.

      I wonder if someone could interest the Weirs in such a project, given what they have been subjected to in the media.”

      Typical “Britnat crap” right?

    121. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      16 December, 2018 at 9:50 pm

      “Colin Alexander at 9.31

      Yep. That is exactly what she is doing – though you obviously don’t understand the nuances.”

      May I ask where you buy your rose-tinted specs, Dave?

      Or have you had a laser operation so you can see everything rosy?

    122. Sinky says:

      Sunday Times encouraging readers to write in about SNP tax grab from hard pressed middle income earners.

      ScottishLetters [at] sunday-times [dot] co [dot] uk

    123. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      16 December, 2018 at 9:31 pm

      “The final conclusion of today’s blog from Craig Murray:

      “Sturgeon should be working for nothing else but Scottish Independence, which is the way to honour Scotland’s clear vote to Remain”.”

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    124. In 2014, the Scottish people exercised their right to self-determination by opting to remain in the UK. In 2016, they exercised their right to self-determination by opting to remain the EU. If the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland choose to leave the EU, that is their right. Legally, in my understanding, the later vote supercedes the former. Hence, there is no need for another indy referendum if the Scottish Government asks the EU to respect the decision the Scottish people made in 2016. They chose to remain – if others choose to leave, so be it.

    125. PacMan says:

      O/T

      I had bumped into an old friend whom I had not seen for years and had a few pints last week. Besides old times, we had got talking about politics and Brexit in particular.

      Had never talking about politics before but the jist of it is that is a Labour name to the core. I don’t need to spell out what he thinks of the SNP and Scottish Indy as it has been said millions of times. One thing that did stand out with the conversation was his assertion that Labour are unelectable because we vote for SNP here.

      Looking back at the conversation, I can’t put across his tone but it definitely sounds like the Scottish cringe that I’ve heard a lot about it. Knowing what the cringe means and experiencing it first hand is two different things. The other thing that struck me was how he was blaming us Scots for the bigotry of certain parts of the English population who would not support Labour due to them potentially going into a pact with the SNP.

      It got me thinking. Imagine if the demographics and it’s spread in England was so different that it allowed for instance the black population to form a political party and got MP’s elected. If the media or people had the same attitude towards that hypothetical party as they do towards the SNP, they would be deemed racist.

      As Labour is supposed to be the party to fight inequality and bigotry in all it’s forms then why are they not confronting this anti-Scottish sentiment where-ever it rears it’s ugly head?

      We are told we are part of a union, country, nation. Why is my political views not being represented because of the political party that best serves my interests is shunned by the British establishment? It isn’t my fault where I was born so why am I in effect being treated as a second-class citizen in a country that says were are all one regardless of our geographical location?

      I know this cringe will never go away and people will do extreme forms of mental gymnastics in order to justify this discrimination because they are not strong enough to confront the conflicting positions that they think of themselves as Scottish but they can’t identify with it. However, they should also be the party that fights injustice but they are not fighting that injustice that directly affects them.

      This realisation does makes me feel a bit uncomfortable myself as during the referendum I genuinely did have sleepless night worrying about whether I was doing the right thing about supporting independence and in doing so I was could be abetting narrow minded nationalism which I am opposed to.

      Back then I wasn’t strong enough to overcome that worry and yes guilt. Back then I was new to politics and had only a basic knowledge of it which was shaped by the mainstream media.

      I know know that the MSM is biased and I know better of their lies and deceit and those who support independence are not ‘gargoyles and social misfits’ to quote one of their then ardent cheerleaders. Do I put any stock in their opinion of independence which as a supporter, is in extent their opinion of me?

      Considering how low they have went with their lies and deceit, I have no respect for them or their opinions. Anybody who takes stock of their opinion and I mean this in the nicest possible way, needs to take a good look at themselves and wise up.

    126. velofello says:

      How, and when, and by what means, did the UK “Supreme Court” come into being? By the specific individual the agreement of each the four nations of the UK? By a referendum? I really don’t know.

      What I do view is that a court that will accept a process that allowed Westminster, in response to a Scottish parliament Continuity Bill, to effectively buy time to block the Bill by litigation and then introduce law – by the unelected House of lords – to declare the Continuity Bill invalid, is no Court of Justice.

    127. PacMan says:

      O/T

      I had bumped into an old friend whom I had not seen for years and had a few pints last week. Besides old times, we had got talking about politics and Brexit in particular.

      Had never talking about politics before but the jist of it is that he is a Labour man to the core. I don’t need to spell out what he thinks of the SNP and Scottish Indy as it has been said countless times before. One thing that did stand out with the conversation was his assertion that Labour are unelectable because we vote for SNP here.

      Looking back at the conversation, I can’t put across his tone but it definitely sounds like the Scottish cringe that I’ve heard a lot about it but never witnessed it personally from somebody I know. Knowing what the cringe means and experiencing it first hand is two different things. The other thing that struck me was how he was blaming us Scots for the bigotry of certain parts of the English population who would not support Labour due to them potentially going into a pact with the SNP.

      It got me thinking. Imagine if the demographics and it’s spread in England was so different that it allowed for instance the black population to form a political party and got MP’s elected. If the media or people had the same attitude towards that hypothetical party as they do towards the SNP, they would be deemed racist.

      As Labour is supposed to be the party to fight inequality and bigotry in all it’s forms then why are they not confronting this anti-Scottish sentiment where-ever it rears it’s ugly head?

      We are told we are part of a union, country, nation. Why is my political views not being represented because of the political party that best serves my interests is shunned by the British establishment? It isn’t my fault where I was born so why am I in effect being treated as a second-class citizen in a country that says were are all one regardless of our geographical location?

      I know this cringe will never go away and people will do extreme forms of mental gymnastics in order to justify this discrimination because they are not strong enough to confront the conflicting positions that they think of themselves as Scottish but they can’t identify with it. However, Labour supporting individuals in particular should not be this way because as mentioned, they are supposed to be the party that fights injustice but they are not fighting that injustice that directly affects them.

      This realisation does makes me feel a bit uncomfortable myself as during the referendum I genuinely did have sleepless nights worrying about whether I was doing the right thing about supporting independence and in doing that I could potentially be abetting narrow minded nationalism that I am opposed to.

      Back then I wasn’t strong enough to overcome that worry and yes guilt. Back then I was new to politics and had only a basic knowledge of it which was shaped by the mainstream media.

      I know know that the MSM is biased and I know better of their lies and deceit and those who support independence are not ‘gargoyles and social misfits’ to quote one of their then ardent cheerleaders. Do I put any stock in their opinion of independence which as a supporter, is in extent their opinion of me?

      Considering how low they have went with their lies and deceit, I have no respect for them or their opinions. Anybody who takes stock of their opinion and I mean this in the nicest possible way, needs to take a good look at themselves and wise up.

    128. Pete Barton says:

      Hmm..it’s getting very cheery tonight.

      If I didn’t know better, I’d think there was an agenda being pushed here.

      Rock et al.. why don’t you take your Xmas leave early.

      30 shillings buys you a lot of Smarties?

    129. Sarah says:

      @ PacMan – thanks for sharing your personal story. It’s good to know folk really did think hard about the principles – and then voted Yes! It won’t take so much thinking about next time, for us at least.

    130. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Pete Barton –

      FFS man, don’t get yon roaster back on the Smarties again…

    131. geeo says:

      Oh dear coco, you clearly have no clue as ever.

      Holyrood can never be sovereign, it is the PEOPLE who are Sovereign in Scotland.

      This is a stone cold fact, only just recently AFFIRMED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, unchallenged i may add.

      Nobody has sovereignty over Scots People, not Holyrood, not WM, not the Supreme Court.

      If you need explained as to what Sovereign Power is, go buy ‘Sovereignty for dummies’ available in crayon, just for you.

      Keep watching events as they unfold, you are about to find out you are dribbling.

      Oh aye, could you post a link to your Uk constitution please ?

      Shouldn’t be a problem for you huh, since you quote it all the time.

      Prove it exists, i would love to read it.

      Will coco rise to the challenge, or divert away from the request ?

      Its a tough one huh ?

    132. Simon Curran says:

      Key thing about the Rev’s idea is if it was proposed it would draw out the real reasons why England wanted to hang onto her northern colony.

    133. mike cassidy says:

      No doubt England will have 2640 reasons for saying no to this.

    134. Pete Barton says:

      @IB:

      You can get thousands of Smarties for forty pounds a week eh?

      Love the Big Yin.

      Pmsl @ Angus Robertson’s vid on German TV.

      Yes Minister style British Elite mismanagement being shown up for the folie that it is.

      It’s the first time I’m happy to feel mocked and pitied simultaneously if I don my former British hat.

      Weird.

    135. North chiel says:

      Latvian ambassador to the U.K. apparently unhappy about Russian broadcasters beaming in pro Russian propaganda into her country. Perhaps she should move up to Edinburgh from London to see what Scotland has to put up with?

    136. Geoff says:

      This proposal would be an economic disaster for Scotland.
      Scotland would inherit the benefits of successor (rUK) status, such as membership of the EU (and UN?), but it would also inherit all the liabilities of the current UK.

      In 2014 we were assured, by no less than HM Treasury, that as the successor state rUK (England etc.) would be responsible for all the liabilities of the UK, including that part of Scots’ pensions due from NI contribution paid to UK prior to independence, and the UK national debt, now rapidly approaching £2tn.

      If Scotland leaves then rUK (England etc.) would be 85-92% of the current UK state (depending on what Wales & NI did) and may possibly have been able to manage carrying those financial burdens. If England (+Wales?) then rUK (Scotland + poss NI) at 8-10% of the current UK state would struggle, even with the benefit of our natural resources such as oil, renewables, etc..
      An independent Scotland would be a pretty rich nation, but probably not rich enough to bail out the rest of the UK. Nor I suggest would it wish to do so.

    137. Daisy Walker says:

      There are a great many nice English people – I mean it, they really are nice – and when it comes to Scotland, or indeed any of their colonies – they have very little interest, and a great depth of ignorance. This ignorance is carefully nurtured and insulated by the English state – why let the populance know of bad things being done, in their name, for their benefit….

      Much much better if they don’t know.

      But one does not need to have facts, or to see injustice, to FEEL a benefit.

      Wouldn’t it be nice, if when it comes to losing jobs, in other countries the job cuts come first.

      Wouldn’t it be nice, that if you ever sell your house, and retire to that beautiful spot you’ve seen in postcards – your house will always be overpriced and enable you to fund the dream.

      Wouldn’t it be an absolute no brainer, that if you move to that country, the best jobs, in the Universities, in the Government, in the Military will always be occupied by someone with an accent like yours… and how confident that must make you feel – without ever having to think about it.

      Scotland is a possession of England, and even the nicest of children hates it when someone takes away one its possessions when they’re not ready to throw it away.

      On an instinctive and emotional level, even the thickest – and nicest – English person instinctively knows that Scotland is of value to England – as a possession. They can feel it all the way down to their bones. And unfortunately for us, (unlike NI) they’re not ready to throw us away. And this feeling is just as powerful as patriotic feelings.

      Here’s a thought – I wonder if the army going into NI late 60’s early 70’s (to keep the ‘peace’) had anything to do with them wondering if there was oil and gas in NI territories and them needing to hold on until they could find out. The timing is about right I’d say.

      I’d love the above article/suggestion to be do-able.

    138. Cubby says:

      Rockshit

      “. ………..Cubby, dear.

      Rockshit = sexist patronising boring Britnat.

      Rockshit has posted a veritable mountain of stinking crap from his sexist mouth. Try keeping your mouth shut and stop sharing your crap. No awards available for the largest pile of Britnat crap posted on Wings.

    139. Cubby says:

      Velofello@10.11pm

      Tony Blair was paying so many visits to USA and thought they have a Supreme Court we should have one. So as Blair is a godlike creature one appeared. The difference between USA and U.K. Is the USA only has one legal system. The UK has two legal systems. It’s a lot trickier in the UK to have a Supreme court as a result. It clashes with the Treaty of Union. Thus the reason there has not been a UK Supreme Court previously.

      The UK Supreme Court reflects the UK that created it. Corrupt and unjust.

    140. Cubby says:

      Pacman @ 10.07/10.12pm

      Excellent post. Worth posting twice. Posts like yours make it worthwhile having to go past all the Britnat crap from phoney independence supporters.

      The cringe is there in all in Scotland just to different degrees. The less cringe you personally have the more you start to see it in others. Once you start to see the media lies/propaganda you see it is an ever present to make Scots feel inferior and subservient.

      Independence is normal. Subjugating a country is not normal and is downright evil.

    141. Golfnut says:

      You need to read Wikipedia’s take on Parliamentary Sovereignty, the manipulation and presumption is quite staggering. Just type in England’s Sovereignty law.

      The principal of Sovereignty is a presumption nothing more. There are only two unqualified Sovereign bodies in the United Kingdom. The English Crown and the People of Scotland. That’s it. Westminster has spent the last 300 years in what can only be described as the biggest on going scam in history. Aided and abetted by our own parcel of rogues, the media and politicians. To be honest, for a long time it worked, but that’s beginning to unravel at quite an alarming rate for Westminster.

      The Supreme Court is I have little doubt being looked at with contempt by their equivalents abroad, their action would not have been out of place in any fascist regime. They have of course an excuse, protecting the establishment state, apparently trumps democracy.

      This is the end game.

    142. Cubby says:

      Rockshit@9.59pm

      Rockshit = Colinshit

      Having conversations with yourself now Rockshit. Not a good sign.

      “It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit…….”. running out of time for this prediction Rockshit oh dear oh dear. Nostradamus you ain’t.

      Got any predictions correct yet Nostrabamus. You are nowt but a stupid Britnat who posts a lot of Britnat Rockshit.

    143. Breeks says:


      Geoff says:
      16 December, 2018 at 11:23 pm
      This proposal would be an economic disaster for Scotland.
      Scotland would inherit the benefits of successor (rUK) status, such as membership of the EU (and UN?), but it would also inherit all the liabilities of the current UK.

      I don’t believe you’re correct there Geoff.

      Westminster has gone out of its way to imply an Independent Scotland would be the Seceding State, and to a degree, there is a logic to seeing that way, however the Treaty of Union is quite explicitly a Union of equals. When the Union was created, there was no greater partner nor lesser partner, but two Constitutional equals.

      If Scotland did remain in the EU, and England left, the dissolution of the Union would not create a Continuer State and Seceding State, but the same two Constitutionally equal entities which would each bear obligations, but obligations proportionate to their former part.

      When the EU has considered Scotland’s Independence in 2014, the Lisbon Treaty takes a narrow view of Membership whereby Scotland would be considered the seceding state and would have to reapply, or be the Continuer State, but such comments did not anticipate Brexit and the English decision to leave Europe, although that doesn’t actually matter. Neither Artlices 48 or 49 of The Lisbon Treaty are correctly applicable to the situation of the dissolution of the UK which would create two equally sovereign entities both of which are already technically member states of the EU. The Lisbon Treaty simply isn’t equal to reconciling the resulting situation. A new precedent would have to be set.

      In some respects, that might be a very simple computation, like apportioning the bill in a restaurant, whereas some areas might be awkward and protracted to resolve.

      But go back all the way to the immediate aftermath of Brexit in 2016, and the EU was very quickly coming to terms with a holding pen status for Scotland as it extricated itself from the UK before emerging as a sovereign EU member state.

      Breaking it down to its simplest form, – if there’s a will, there’s a way.

      The only economic disaster galloping towards Scotland is being dragged out of Europe by the great Brexit Misadventure.

    144. Neil Mackenzie says:

      England can’t do anything. England doesn’t have a government.

      I looked on the BBC website – There’s a politics section each for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales but England doesn’t have a politics section. England’s news consists only of ‘Local News’ and ‘Regions’. There’s no ‘England Politics’ section so, obviously, there can’t be any English government. How can a country with no government of its own be independent?

    145. Cubby says:

      Golfnut @12.02am

      Spot on. Not much I can add.

      Although I always think of Billy banana boots calling the Scottish parliament a wee pretendy thing. I tend to think of Westminsters Parliament as a wee pretendy sovereignty thing over Scotlands people.

    146. Ghillie says:

      One thing I would be interested in smuggling over the border is a powerful hoover 🙂

    147. Cubby says:

      Breeks@12.16am

      If you enter into a partnership of two equal partners when the partnership is dissolved it would be normal for both partners to expect an equal share of the assets and liabilities unless it is agreed otherwise. There is no leaving the UK. The UK is terminated – and no Arnie Swarznegger required.

    148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi velofello at 10:11 pm.

      You typed,

      “How, and when, and by what means, did the UK “Supreme Court” come into being? By the specific individual the agreement of each the four nations of the UK? By a referendum? I really don’t know.

      What I do view is that a court that will accept a process that allowed Westminster, in response to a Scottish parliament Continuity Bill, to effectively buy time to block the Bill by litigation and then introduce law – by the unelected House of lords – to declare the Continuity Bill invalid, is no Court of Justice.”

      When I was studying Scots Law on my day release course at Dundee Commercial College back in 1969 (I was a bank apprentice), the situation was that the final court of appeal in civil cases was the Scottish law lords in the House of Lords.

      As far as I understand it, the UK supreme court is now the final court of appeal for appeals under Scots Law, with Scottish law lords sitting in judgement, rather than the HoL, as before.

      Different name, same game, I think.

    149. Iain mhor says:

      Ahh @Rock still unsure whether its 620 or 622 years I see.
      It’s up to a three year difference now. (2637 AD in 2017)
      Swithery swithery, dithery dithery.
      Make your mind up – How are we meant to get a coupon on?

      Oh! Wait a minute, I finally just got it haha!
      D’oh, always twice as long as the time since 1707 – So next year it will be 624 years and 2643 AD .
      It was never a definitive prediction – I claim my fiver!

    150. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      You know, on thinking about what I typed at 12:48 am, it would appear that Westmonster has carried out a rather fine bit of propaganda, by referring to the final court of appeal of Scottish civil cases as the “UK Supreme Court”.

      As far as I can see, nothing has changed from the previous regime of Scottish law lords sitting in judgement on Scottish civil cases.

      Instead of the final appeal court being referred to as ‘the Scottish law lords in the HoL’, it is now ‘the UK Supreme Court’, suggesting that the UK is superior to Scots Law.

      What think thee, my peers?

    151. Dr Jim says:

      They say that offering another democratic vote is a betrayal of democracy
      The only people who fear voting in a democracy are those who fear they’ll lose
      We had a vote an it’s final they say yet every five years we vote again in case we changed our minds from the last government we elected
      Mrs May said there will be no general election and then went ahead and had one, they called it a snap election, was that different to a non snap election
      The people of Scotland had a vote in 2014 to remain in the UK, now they say it was forever until the end of time and that means Scotland agrees with all decisions taken by any government in Westminster until told differently no changing of minds will ever be possible until we’re told we can change our minds by the same people who say we’re not allowed to

      Scotland isn’t in a Union folks, no country on the planet would accept this from a *partner* No country in the EU partnership would accept this (Wallonia) nor would they be asked to

      This is a nasty vile dictatorship of nutjobs and greed mongering thieves who treat the other Nations as irritants if they dare speak up yet funnily enough treat the very people they used to call terrorists with respect in case some of them start blowing stuff and people up again

      What’s the message

    152. Ghillie says:

      Hallo Pedro =) and all new Wingers and Winged Lurkers =)

      Welcome 🙂

    153. marsfries says:

      Theresa May is apparently going to say tomorrow that a second EU referendum would do “irreparable damage to politics”. This woman is just…. words fail me.

      I still think a second EU referendum isn’t going to happen. They can’t even agree on the framing of the question. And even if they did, too many of the possible outcomes still spell trouble.

      1) England still votes Leave but Scotland and NI and even Wales vote to Remain. England’s Leave vote is strong enough to overrule everyone else. That is not sustainable in the long run, especially if Westminster continues to not give a shit about how its neighbours voted and tells the other constituent nations to shut up and put up with what England has decided (basically what they have been doing for the last two and a half years).

      2) England votes Leave, Scotland, NI and Wales to Remain. However, England’s Leave vote is such a wafer-thin majority that the combination of English Remain votes, and the Remain votes of the other three nations produces an overall Remain result across the UK. Then what? Expect a shitstorm south of the border with English Brexiteers and the arseholes in the English media to whip up a frenzy against Scotland, NI and Wales. In such a scenario, calls for a referendum on English Independence may prove to be irresistable, and as my earlier link points out, may not be such a bad thing at all.

      3) Everyone votes Remain unanimously. Problem solved as far as the European question goes, but Scotland is still entitled to a second Indy ref since Westminster has blantantly run roughshod over Scots law with booting the Holyrood Continuity Bill to the Supreme Court and passing its own Withdrawal Bill. This is unprecedented and opened up another constitutional crisis. It also remains the case that the No campaign in 2014 did not fulfil its promise that Scotland would get full devolution. And the fact that it’d have taken TWO EU referendums to ensure that Scotland’s place in the EU remains safe by staying in the Union is not a demonstration of the safety and stability of the Union.

      4) Most unlikely, but what if the vote comes down to 50/50? Not seen this happening anywhere else before either, but then there’d have to be a recount OR yet another vote. Cue even more eyerolling in Europe.

      Reality is, too many people wanting opposite things can only be resolved through the dissolution of the UK and everyone going their separate ways. Federalism isn’t going to work anymore. Westminster has abused the other nations’ trust too many times already. That’s what blatant greed for your neighbours’ resources and disrespect for their wishes does.

      And at some point, the EU27 are going to put their foot down too.

      Lastly, I really really wish the SNP/ScotGov would consider the legal route to independence rather than stating outright it has to be through a referendum.

    154. geeo says:

      Notice how quickly coco disappeared when asked for a link to his ‘uk constitution’ ?

    155. Al-Stuart says:

      Brilliant.

      This needs Rev Stu., to don his cape and strat a crowdfund to go over the heads of the naysayers directly to the public in the millions.

      I would happily donate £100 for starters. More if needed.

      Are there any other Wingers who would help crowdfund this to get a campaign writing to EVERY MP + MSP + MLAs + AMs in all four nations and also sign a parliamentary petition?

      Surely The National would get behind this too?

      Then the leaders in each of the disparate Brexit omlette mess.

      This must be worth a BIG PUSH as it is such an elegant way to achieve what Scotland needs. Independence.

      But in a way that does NOT pi55 off all the other parts of the jigsaw.

      Paul Millar you are a genius.

      A pure dead brilliant solid gold genius.

    156. Liz g says:

      Al – Stuart 3.14
      Oh Al … This is what “should/could happen if all the player’s got on board…
      And if there was the time to get it organized..
      But its no going to happen…

      It’s like when ye prepare to confront someone.
      ye work out what ye want to say and all the answers in yer head…
      Then the other party doesn’t stick to the script..

      The point of this proposition,and the Rev’s previous one,was and is,I think,to highlight and explore the barriers to the most ” obvious ” solution to achieving what “the people” are actually saying they ( for what ever reason) they really want…

      And those – actual – barriers are no the interests or wishes of the people themselves…. Which would result in the sort of compromise the Article suggested…
      But rather … The interests of the ruling elite…
      If you’ve ever said ” I don’t know why they JUST don’t ” !!!
      Then ye step in tae …. The Land of …. The Politicians need to be curbed… All of them…
      Which,logic would dictate that we are back to the …
      Simple and Elegant position..
      Bring yer Government Within Slapping Distance.. Then ye wull get Democracy!!

    157. Undeadshuan says:

      @One of the hundred

      A state with a soverign fiat currency, which we would have as the sucessor state has no issues with debt.

      Look at MMT and specifically what japan did with its debt.
      (clue it owes itself the money)

      It would be England who need a new currency and a way to finance their annual debts when they cant use BOE any more.

      We would rename it to the bank of scots (to avoid confusion with bank of scotland) and move it to Edinburgh.

    158. Breeks says:

      Apart from unilaterally revoking Article 50 insofar as it relates to Scotland, does anybody have a credible alternative to defending Scotland’s place in Europe and simultaneously resurrecting the ascendancy of Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty which can be brought to fruition in less than the 102 days left at our disposal?

      There already isn’t time for a referendum without and extension of time on Article 50 which the EU will not grant, or revocation of the UK’s Article 50 which May says Westminster will not do.

      If our government in Holyrood believes itself answerable to Westminster and Westminster’s Supreme Court rather than answerable to the Constitutionally Sovereign people of Scotland, doesn’t that bring us to the point where, “…we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours”,…..

      102 days.

      Or is the ECJ ruling just the lastest Sovereign benchmark to be thrown under a bus and squandered by the timid tigers of Holyrood?

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @Andy Anderson says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:43 pm:

      ” … Even if this was a goer we would have division in Scotland because only 50% want independence meaning 50% of us would be pissed off.”

      Yeah! Well!

      50% of us have been pissed off all our lives with the current set-up. The only difference would be it would be the other 50% becoming the pissed off half.

    160. Sunshine says:

      Breeks @ 7.47
      I agree with you and my only other answer is to have a second independence vote, not the S N P campaigning for a second Brexit vote!
      What the hell is happening. Why didn’t Nicola Sturgeon call a press conference after the S Court result?

    161. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      17 December, 2018 at 8:03 am
      @Andy Anderson says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:43 pm:

      ” … Even if this was a goer we would have division in Scotland because only 50% want independence meaning 50% of us would be pissed off.”

      Yeah…

      Yeah, and just as democracy doesn’t change the absolute nature of sovereignty, neither does being pissed off have any influence on it’s legitimacy either.

      We are sovereign whether we like it or not, vote for it or not, or are pissed off about it or not. Sovereign we remain.

    162. Camz says:

      Poor old Wales.

    163. Macart says:

      Heh. Provoked quite the response for a what if(?) piece. 🙂

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @One of the hundred says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:45 pm
      ” … Ridiculous proposal.
      So England/Wales would leave the UK?
      Leaving Scotland and NI as the successor state with £2Trillion of debt, the nukes, Royal Navy, massive military, UN security council membership, the Falklands, Gibraltar, dependent territories, all UK treaties, consulates, bbc etc?
      No chance. How do you think 7 million of us in rUK will deal with that?
      Completely ridiculous.”

      Rubbish!

      The armed forces and all everything else in The Kingdom of England, (of which N.I. is also a part of that kingdom), belong to Her Majesty.

      It is the Soldiers of the Queen, The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. The Civil Service is Her Majesty’s Civil Service as are the Royal Mint, Treasury and the Security Services.

      Was not the Royal Navy and Monarch’s soldiers instructed by the royal personage NOT to aid the Monarch’s Scottish people on the expedition during the Darien Expeditions?

      That is still the legal situation today, in The Kingdom of England the Queen of England is legally sovereign but in Scotland the Queen is Queen of Scots only and the Scots are legally sovereign.

      I’d venture the guess that if Her Majesty attempted to negotiate for Scots to take on even a share of a former United Kingdom’s debits she would only succeed in triggering the second part of the Declaration of Arbroath that states the people can, “drive out”, the monarch they chose and replace that monarch with another who protects the people of Scotland legally sovereign rights.
      s
      We leave the UK.
      We leave them.

    165. Colin Alexander says:

      geeo

      I’ll put it simple for you:

      You said there is a LEGAL right for indyref. Legal means in law. You show me the law that says the Scottish Parliament in law is entitled to hold an indyref.

      The constitutional experts say it is currently a legally grey area. The SP can hold referendums, but cannot legislate on constitutional matters, so is an indyref a referendum or a constitutional matter?

      I’m saying the recent ruling from the Supreme Court shows that even IF the SP did have the power to legislate for indyref, if the SP tried to legislate for indyref, UK Parliament has the power to legislate so it’s no longer a grey area: UK Parliament could legislate to say referendums are reserved to UK Parliament.

      I should highlight that the Supreme Court also said, how much power the Scottish Parliament should have is a POLITICAL decision, not a legal one.

      As for the HOC vote about Scotland’s people being sovereign. The UK does agree Scotland’s people are sovereign, as that legitimises the Stewarts being kicked off the throne. But they will also tell you that the sovereign people of Scotland chose to be ruled by UK Parliament in 1707 and in 2014 so the sovereignty of the people of Scotland is invested in UK Parliament rule, not the subservient Scottish Parliament.

      Basically, the indyref policy is crap. It always has been. But Cameron’s govt played along as they had bigger plans ahead and played Scotland, rigging the campaign to guarantee a NO win and with EVEL, and Brexit following on, placing Scotland even worse off afterwards.

      Wingers and the FM see indyref as a glorious achievement. It has been a disaster for Scotland.

      UK Govt has played us as fools and yet the FM and others think indyrefs are the gold standard.

      Some people never learn.

    166. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clapper57 says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:49 pm:

      ” … However remember how some said that in last Scottish Indy referendum in 2014 that England should also have gotten a vote in that referendum as affected them too.”

      Aye! Mibbies so, but, “they”, were legally wrong. It was a matter for the legally sovereign people of Scotland only and not for the legally sovereign Queen of England and the people of the Kingdom of England are legally the Queen of England’s subjects. They get to elect who represents the Queen of England in The United Kingdom Parliament – but those English elected representatives represent Her Majesty of England not her subjects.

    167. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian McGeechan says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:52 pm:

      ” … There’s just the problem of the successor state carrying the bulk (all) of the UK debt.”

      Not a problem, Ian, as the United Kingdom Government is legally titled, “Her Majesty’s Government.”, and the Treasury, Armed Forces. Etc. are all Her Majesty’s. However, in 1688 the Parliament of the Kingdom of England passed legislation that forced the monarchy to legally delegate their sovereign, Divine Right of Kings, to The Parliament of the Kingdom of England but that parliamentary act was passed before the union.

    168. Ken500 says:

      Call another Indyref in the middle of the mess,with reported 50% support. Instead of waiting for a GE. Then the SNP holds the balance of power. If people vote for it. Gets another Indyref which will be won. A win win. Instead of a double rammy. Labour could have taken May down in Sept 2017. The EVEL vote. Corbyn and the LibDems do not turn up to vote.

      Demographically support will increase. 50,000 people keel over. The young ones come on board. Indy support increases.

      The Tories are tanking the economy. Labour are useless. They want rid of people but cling on to Scotland, 5.2Million could go. That should suit them. They want only 10,000 migrants. A migrant Tory wants only 10,000 migrants. The cheek of it. They should leave. The hypocrites. It is just unbelievable.

      The unionists at Westminster want to keep tax evading. The Hedge Funds are making a fortune out of Brexit. The unionists are sanctioning and starving people. They are a disgrace.

      The waste of public money on HS2 and Hinkley Point with absolutely no business case. £Billions wasted. The Tory slush fund. Cameron et al at the trough.

      The Greens going on about Council Tax changes. No one give a damn. People pay on average £20 a week for local services. People who can’t afford to do not pay. It is topped up by national tax revenues raised. Scotland pays it’s own (UK) pensions and benefits from tax revenues raised in Scotland. There is no ‘pension’ fund. It is paid from current revenues.

      The unionists councils waste money like there is no tomorrow. On empty offices, shops and under occupied hotels. Gang up illegally to keep the SNP out. The SNP get the highest number of candidates elected, The unionists changed the electoral system illegally, with no mandate. To get the 3rd rate unionists in. An abuse of democracy.

      Sky accusing other news channels of bias. They just make it up. Sky fake news. Murdoch the murdering liar. Along with the non Dom tax evading ‘Press’.

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 16 December, 2018 at 3:56 pm:

      ” … The English claiming a UDI from UK,
      good for us good for them,
      the britnats in Scotland would commit harakiri.”

      Indeed, Scot, and in the Kingdom of England it would be a UDI but in Scotland where the people are legally sovereign it would not.

    170. Hamish100 says:

      There are many types of fools mr Alexander. You dont fool us.

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tatu3 says: 16 December, 2018 at 4:16 pm:

      ” … Because at the moment it doesn’t seem as if we, the majority, are being considered at all.”

      Absolute claptrap. Nicola has been an SNP member since she was a teenager and has given up being an active practicing lawyer in order to devote her life to Scottish Independence.

      She could have been a great deal financially better off with a lot less stress just working as a lawyer.

    172. Robert Peffers says:

      @wullie says: 16 December, 2018 at 4:39 pm:

      ” … So how to get this message across to the people of England and turn the tables on unionists.

      Not a problem, wullie. Many of them think like that already. The Westminster Propaganda Wing has been preaching to them for centuries that Scotland is subsidised by the English Taxpayer.

      They just naturally believe they keep us as pets and that all that gas & oil and electric power.Etc. belong to the United Kingdom/England.

    173. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 16 December, 2018 at 5:21 pm:

      ” … Sorry Scot but England can no more do a UDI than can Scotland.”

      Rubbish! Under the Laws of England Her Majesty the Queen of England, not the United Kingdom Parliament and there is no Parliament of England, is sovereign.

      Thus, (unless the Queen of England herself declares Her English Kingdom independent), a Westminster, UNITED KINGDOM, parliament would be making a parliamentary vote of UDI.

    174. Macart says:

      Oh, hahahahahahaha!

      ‘May to urge MPs not to break faith with the British people’. Epic. Just epic.

      How many fails in a single line? So Brexit omnishambles could be rebel MPs fault and it’s almost definitely the publics fault, but it’s not Ms May’s fault. Then of course there’s the whole ‘British’ bit. British being a bit of a movable feast in terms of Westminster definitions. It’s whatever they want it to mean on any given day.

      Just so we’re ALL clear though. The collapse of UK politics, the breaking of trusts between societal demographics. The erosion of trust between people and institutions/services. The damage to economies. Apparently that is nothing to do with how Westminster parties have practised politics in the past several decades and it has nothing to do with Treeza. It’s all the fault of the plebs and rebel MPs.

      Hahahahahahahaha! 😀 LOLMAGEDDON

      Oh Jeez. That’s truly amazing. Makes you wonder though, eh? This is the office (PM) and system of government that claims it is the sovereign power. Ohhhh really? Well, to quote some pop culture: ‘With great power comes great responsibility’.

      You don’t get the power without carrying the can for the screw-ups. The UK is a political and societal screw up? There is only one place where the buck stops.

    175. Seems like a great idea…it gives the Scots a good solution. For the rest of the UK however, lots of problems would remain. Even though N.Ireland voted to remain in the EU, many Unionists in N.Ireland will never accept Irish reunification. As for England & Wales, the idea ignores the wishes of the 46.6% (& rising) of the English who voted to remain in the EU, & all the Welsh who did likewise. There is no getting around the fact that Brexit, the Brexiters & the tory party & government have divided the people & split the 4 countries apart in a way that can’t be fixed. If we Scots go independent, & I hope we do, it could be said that of all the 4 countries, we’ll have the easiest time of it. I think we should take our independence regardless of whatever the outcome of Brexit turns out to be. N.Ireland would have a difficult period of disagreement between those wanting to unify Ireland, & those Unionists who will say never under any circumstances. Wales is split & under the thumb of the English. As for the English…well, they are also irrevocably split. If all the disastrous social & economic predictions came true, then things could only get worse in a diminished & divided England. At the end of the day, the only good solution to Brexit for all 4 countries is to cancel it altogether. But Scotland should still go independent…

    176. Breeks says:

      Revoke Scotland’s Article 50 notification, and you create a Scottish Backstop. The UK can secure no Brexit Deal which embodies colonial subjugation.

      Westminster / England has another divisive conundrum it must resolve:- Brexit with No Scotland, or Scotland with No Brexit.

    177. Kenno says:

      Hamish 100

      The only “fool” that I can see is you ya fuckin halfwit,,,if you didn’t constantly keep posting and answering to Trolls then maybe they would go elsewhere..

      And if they annoy you that much why the fuck do you spend so much time and energy reading their fuckin posts???

      The only Troll I see on here is you,,,how about trying to post something that is relevant to Scottish Impendence???

    178. Breeks says:

      Brexit is England’s UDI… Unilateral Demonstration of Idiocy.

    179. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tackety Beets, I do like Ozzies , they say it like they see it and I bet their parliament doesn’t pussy foot around thinking up euphemisms for ‘bloody liar’.

      The one thing I thought wrong about it was that oft repeated ‘Europe needs the UK more than the UK needs Europe’- I have never been able to work out why Europe would need a whingeing , complaining, arrogant pain in the proverbials .

      I think they will do just fine without us constantly upsetting the applecart and blaming anyone but ourselves.

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      @wullie says: 16 December, 2018 at 6:35 pm:

      ” … I did read somewhere many years ago that there is a Scottish nationality law.
      You have to be born in Scotland of Scottish born grandparents.
      true or false I have no idea.”

      That belief is absolute pish, wullie.

      The only organisations that have ever had such rules were the sporting organisations and that was only due to the only international meetings were within Britain.

      Way back the Hibs football team used to organise exhibition matches throughout Europe and the World off-season.

      The Hibs were the first British team in, “The Fair Cities”, cup. This eventually grew into the European Cup:-

      https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibee-history-barca-beaten-in-fairs-cup-quarter-final-1-4490592
      There has never been a law that states Scots must be born in Scotland or to have parents/grandparents.

      The Scottish Law that applies was set down in the Declaration of Arbroath that, “The People of Scotland”, not the, “Scottish Born People”, are sovereign.

    181. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 8.30

      “Some people never learn.”

      Indeed. You being one of them.
      Most people on this site react “FFS. Here he is again. With his convoluted,mock legalistic, regularly incomprehensible, illogical nonsense pretending to support independence”
      I usually skip by but I saw “Some people never learn” and I thought “precious”.

      In this tortuous and confused piece you decide that the Scottish people are indeed sovereign – but they can’t decide how they are ruled. What utter contradictory nonsense.

      If you are “sovereign ” you can decide how you are ruled,you can decide what laws require to be augmented,cancelled, changed, adopted,ignored, provided to facilitate your ambition.
      That is all.

      That is what the United Nations Charter says.That is “jus cogens”. That is what Claim of Right, confirmed in Westminster 4th July this year says. That is the EU position on any decision reached on by legally agreed process.

      That the UK government may huff and puff and bluff and even try to illegally prevent Scotland choosing its own future is without a doubt.
      It may decide to stand in front of the world and expose itself as the failed and anti democratic state that it now is.

      In the meantime the Scottish Goverment will follow all due process and go around Europe and the wider world explaining its position and making friends.
      And prepare itself for the next move.

      I make this committment to long suffering subscribers to this marvelous site.This is the last time I will react to any of your posts. I suggest everybody else makes the same decision

    182. DerekM says:

      Its a great idea Paul however it has one major problem and that is unfortunately a large majority of English people are political idiots,i do not say this on a whim because after nearly 3 years infiltrating their think groups i think i am qualified to issue such a statement.

      After all the lies and rubbish thrown at them(both sides) i still see English people talking like they have the ability to decide the outcome of brexit by voting blue or red tory,one bunch want us out the other bunch want us in and the reality is they will get what their parliamentary sovereignty decides and if they think the red tories will help them then they are mugs the red tories will help the blue tories secure that parliamentary sovereignty for westminster.

      Why do you think westminster does not like referendum it is because they are terrified that the English population might figure out the real English problem which is parliamentary sovereignty and do something about it.

      But alas they are political idiots and will probably figure out in 20 years time like they always do what a complete shower of crooked bastards they have running the UK today and who use parliamentary sovereignty for their own criminal activities and to cover up said criminal activities essentially making them above the law.

      Scotland cant wait 20 years so we will just need to throw England in the deep end and hope the people wise up and write a modern constitution for themselves the sovereign people of England before the crooks write one for them.

      Hope they can swim 😉

    183. Capella says:

      Or the FM could just use the prerogative to repeal the Treaty of Union. Seems simpler. Apologies I forget who first posted this link, maybe Proud Cybernat?:

      Note that under paragraph 2(1)(a) the Prerogative is expressly declared not to be reserved. Therefore there seems nothing in law to prevent the Scottish Government exercising their Prerogative powers to revoke the Articles of Union and hence the Act of Union!

      But see the extensive comments below.

      https://aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/article-50-the-articles-of-union-and-using-the-royal-prerogative-to-end-the-union-between-scotland-and-england/

      Surely it can’t be long now before the majority of Scots turn their back on this farce.

    184. Bobp says:

      Brian doonthetoon 12.48am. Completely agree, the SC is not fit for purpose and the Scottish law lords should refuse to recognise it.

    185. Colin Alexander says:

      Hamish100 said:
      17 December, 2018 at 8:50 am

      “You dont fool us”.

      EVEL was announced the minute the NO vote win was announced. Clearly, it was PRE-PLANNED. EVEL made Scottish MPs second-class MPs at WM.

      Devolution reduced the number of MPs at WM and robbed Scotland of hundreds of square miles of sea bed. For what? The Supreme Court has answered that: a subservient, WM branch office at Holyrood. The right to administer WM cuts to Scottish public services and take the blame for it.

      The EU-ref treated the UK as a unitary state, not a Union of equal kingdoms, so again England decided.

      Scottish politicians of all parties have glorified Holyrood. The SNP pretended it’s a Scottish Govt. The truth is it isn’t.

      Holyrood is WESTMINSTER GOVT’S subservient branch office. The only sovereignty it represents is the sovereignty of UK Parliament over Scotland.

      In the eyes of the law Holyrood is no more representative of Scotland’s people’s sovereignty than a local community council.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander “You show me the law that says the Scottish Parliament in law is entitled to hold an indyref.

      It can seek the views of the people of Scotland, as per Section 102 paragraph 2 of the Scotland Act:

      (2)Such a provision is to be read as narrowly as is required for it to be within competence, if such a reading is possible, and is to have effect accordingly.

      A referendum Bill would not be interepreted in terms of section 29(2)(b) of the Scotland Act, nor in terms of s.29(3) – as long as it was so worded that it could be narrowly interpreted by the Courts.

      And, of course, the recent UKSC ruling has fully supported that view – when the EU Continuity Bill was passed it was totally legal, bar the Section 17.

    187. Ghillie says:

      Tripe

    188. Ghillie says:

      Not you Yesindyref2 =)

    189. Iain mhor says:

      There does appear to be some ambiguity from Holyrood at the moment as mentioned ad-nauseum during all this Brexiting fiasco.
      Campaigning and pushing for everything and anything ahead of Independence and Indyref2 appears very odd – At least that is the perception. The argument that the FM must govern for all of Scotland doesn’t hold much water. The point of being the party of government, is that you have the position to push your own agenda as priority over others. Or if it isn’t, I have seriously misread politics worldwide all my days.

      There is another view that in order to push through one’s own agenda requires the subtle art of statecraft. Which isn’t really all that subtle. It’s really just child psychology;
      Do not dictate your agenda for this invites refusal to comply.
      Do not ask for their preferences for that reverses the balance of power and you lose control of the outcome.
      Submit options of your choosing instead, thereby giving the illusion of free choice, autonomy and control,

      Campaigning or pushing a purely Independence stance invites a refusal to comply. A Referendum is shifting the balance of power and loss of control. Presenting options you prefer retains control of the outcome and gives an impression of free choice.
      So far, those options currently (via Holyrood) are “Remain in the EU in some form, or Independence” – Not “Remain or Leave the EU” and not “Leave the EU or Indy” Not an Indyref “What do you want?” – You get the idea.
      The only way to push your preferred options is to be have them in the first place. Hence the campaigning on the “Remain in the EU in some form” agenda to place it on equal footing to Indy (which is a given agenda already) The only choices presented for consideration then excludes remaining in the UK.

      The only flaw people seem to perceive with the current postion, is getting behind the Brexit ‘Peoples Vote’. That appears to have diluted and sidetracked the agenda, hijacked it. Well, no-one said statecraft and such ploys are exclusive to one side, Westminster can play the same game and are.
      Note the presented options from them are “My deal and out of the EU or No Deal and out of the EU” a false choice but retaining control of the outcome. Unfortunately for them in this case, the options are far too similar. The “Peoples vote” is not to be considered by them due to the whole ‘losing control of the agenda and shifting the power balance. However, that particular narrative has one saving grace for Westmimster- it apparently undermines the Holyrood narrative of “EU or Indy” and puts it back to “Remain – Leave” where both choices are remaining within the UK.

      On the horns of this dilemma dances the FM. How to regain the narrative and manipulate the choice back to EU or Indy?
      The only way is to be a player. We make great store of “having a seat at the table” but the same goes for the game of politics, you have to be a player. So in order to shift the narrative back, the FM must be seen to engage the “Peoples Vote” but somehow shift the dialogue of choice to “In the EU or Indy”
      This is not as difficult as it may appear, because that ‘Peoples vote’ has already ocurred in Scotland and Scotland is aware of the value of that vote – It has none. We didn’t get a lollipop and Westminster took away the possibility that we ever get to choose in a way which will ever get us a lolly.
      So when the FM stands with the ‘Peoples Vote” the narrative is : “There is this option, which didn’t go well for you previously or you can consider Indy…” Too subtle really, but standing behind a “Peoples Vote” is pushing the Indy agenda. Pushing Trade deals and Efta’s and alternatives is ultimately controlling the choice. That choice will be “In the EU in some form or Indy” until Indy is the only choice to get what you want one way or another.

      The observant will see the final flaw in the “Controlling the Choice” – A final Indy referendum. After all the work an Indy referendum would be relinquishing the control, the narrative and the power balance and asking the child what it wants.
      The only way that can work, is if you are certain you have managed to manipulate the thinking, to ensure the outcome you want. That takes a lot of time and effort and is no guarantee, so it is no wonder there is an element which baulks at the thought of relinquishing ultimate control of the agenda. If there are other avenues, they should be pursued – a Referendum on Independence should be the last viable option – When the child is screaming for what you wanted all along.

      That is one view.

    190. geeo says:

      Check the cheek of coco, demanding people “show me the law”…(claim of right is pretty clear coco, Scots are legally sovereign, so you tell me, how do YOUR LOT at WM, stop Sovereign Scots holding the thing which is the purest for of expression of said sovereignty, a plebiscite ?

      Now, apart from that, where is your link to your claimed uk constitution you like to quote ?

      Big on demanding answers, not so big on answering questions huh, coco ?

      No more questions allowed from you until you start answering them.

      Well ?

    191. Bob Mack says:

      Is anyone really surprised the Tories don’t want another referendum on brexit ? It is a golden opportunity for hardline Tory policy to be brought into force, including abolishing the NHS, low paid work , abolition of Health and safety regulations, etc, and all demanded by the British public, . The Tories could rightfully say the public knew what they voted for and the Tories were only delivering on that.

      Never has a government or governments been handed a bigger stick to perform social restructuring to suit their own ends, and all backed by idiots with a vote for self harm.

      Riots ? You demanded these things. Let us out please.

    192. Capella says:

      BBC Scotland top item on the website is train delays. They mention that it is a signaling fault that has caused the delay but forget to mention that signals are a Network Rail responsibility. Reserved.
      See Network Rail on what they do about signaling faults:
      https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-after-the-railway/delays-explained/signals-points-failure/

      You’d think the BBC could have looked that up themselves with all their highly paid executives running the operation.

    193. Capella says:

      @ Kenno – polite request – please, do not post racist comments on WoS. That could damage the reputation of the site and reflect badly on everyone else posting here.

    194. Colin Alexander says:

      yesindyref2

      “when the EU Continuity Bill was passed it was totally legal, bar the Section 17”.

      Aye. But what happened? The UK Parliament blocked it, because it can.

      Would an indyref bill have the same outcome? We’ll need to wait and see.

    195. Cubby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @1.05am

      Yes just a typical bit of Tony Blair spin to get round the two legal system/Treaty of Union problem.

    196. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      Hear hear!

      The level of FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) is increasing on Wings, as is the attempts to stir up racial hate, anti-Englishness, anything that can decrease the support for Indy.

      Good, it shows the Unionists know what’s coming and are getting desperate. Mundell is sending in all his reserves. Who are as competent as he is 😎

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      Would an indyref bill have the same outcome? We’ll need to wait and see.

      You might hope so, and YOU might need to wait and see.

    198. ronnie anderson says:

      Kenno re Cappella’s comment I share same sentiments . Substitute english for Westminster , many of us Scots have Family english born , leave that visceral hatred of other Nationalities to the likes of BNP .

    199. geeo says:

      The openly bigoted post above, by bigoted scumbag Kenno, has been reported, and i would urge people to do the same to ALL these clearly co-ordinated attempts to create anti english sentiments and try make wings look like it is anti english to casually site visitors.

      It is up to us, the decent readers, to report these insidious attacks on this site’s reputation (which is the real motive here) to the only man who can suitably deal with them and stop their posts.

    200. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@9.14am

      Sorry Mr Peffers you just proved what I said – England can not do a UDI either. I never said the UK parliament would declare England doing a UDI. Englands sovereign queen and its MPs can declare the treaty terminated. That is not UDI.

    201. geeo says:

      Come on coco, still waiting on your link to this fabled Uk constitution ?

      Or you could just say that you are talking mince ?

      No link = Coco talking mince.

    202. I hope the Rev and readers will forgive me for leaving this here, but I seem to be under some form of social media ghosting at the moment.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/

      Besides it was inspired by a jog to my memory in a comment from Indyref2 here at the weekend.

    203. Cubby says:

      Colinshit/coco

      You have posted a lot more of your crap since I asked you a question and I noticed geeo asked the same question.

      So for the second time. First time – cubby @9.39pm

      Where can I find where it says as you claim “the UK parliament is Supreme in the UK constitution” or is it just more Britnat assertion/ propaganda.

    204. Kangaroo says:

      Tackety breeks @ 7:51am

      Credlin was ex Oz PM Tony Abbott’s press secretary. Abbott is a Londoner, Leaver, right wing nut, pal of bojo the clown. So you will notice the pro england stance from her commentary.

      Deluded as they all seem to be. Dont give it any credibility at all. None.

    205. Colin Alexander says:

      The people of Scotland are legally sovereign. That sovereignty is represented by MPs at UK Parliament.

      Prior to the Union that Scots sovereignty was exercised by Scots MPs at the old Scottish Parliament but the exercise of that sovereignty was transferred to UK Parliament.

      So UK Parliament does not deny Scotland’s people have sovereignty; the UK state says: we have Scotland’s sovereignty at UK Parliament and exercise it on Scotland’s behalf.

      So UK Govt now says: Scotland was given the option to take back exercising of sovereignty in Scotland and decided in 2014 that UK Parliament could keep it.

      So, in my opinion the SNP were right for decades: if an absolute majority of Scotland’s MP’s were elected on a mandate to dissolve the Union they could.

      The only bars to doing that is the current SNP’s indyref policy, and persuading enough people to vote for MPs to dissolve the Union, when the UK state propaganda machine churns out pro-Union lies with impunity and we rely on the likes of Wings or The National, which most voters don’t read.

      But, we are where we are.

      So, if indyref can be held and won and Scotland can win her freedom that way, Good. I want to see it happen but, I remain unconvinced by SNP strategy and explanations that it’s all SNP reverse psychology to achieve indy.

      Time will tell.

    206. Cubby says:

      Is it just a coincidence that two of the very small number of countries that do not have a written constitution are two kingdoms.

      UK

      Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

      I am sure that there are people in Saudi Arabia thinking they do not want to be in such poor company.

      Both countries promote it as a positive there is no written constitution. Wonder why?

    207. Graf Midgehunter says:

      I posted this on the last thread when most people were already on this one so probably went mostly unnoticed. It does however belong here with regard to England leaving as an alternative.

      Apologies for a double take.
      ________________
      It doesn’t look as if some in the EU really want the UK/England to stay in.

      You got your opt-ins, opt-outs, special this and special that.
      A gold plated membership card for trade with the EU, FTAs with a lot of the world and more in the pipeline..

      The WM, Brit.Nat. clique are a pain in the a**e to most Europeans nowadays.
      They’re not at all that keen on the UK revoking A50.

      My German friends would take Scotland in with open arms.

      A comment in a like way from Germany:
      http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/opinion-there-should-be-no-exit-from-brexit-a-1243405.html

    208. schrodingers cat says:

      impass

      the dup hate treezas deal, it leaves ni in the sm/cu, which for unionists is a nightmare. killing treezas deal is their aim.

      they could cross the floor and support corbyn’s VONC, and run a ge. however, that would hand treezas deal a lifeline not kill it, indeed, the deal is quite popular in ni, the dup could get punished in a ge in ni. treeza would then camoaign in the ge for her deal.

      no, their best bet is to wait until treeza brings the deal to a vote in the hoc, where it will be defeated once and for all.

      i doubt treeza will bring forward her deal in the certain knowledge it will be defeated, she will delay and threaten no deal.

      which is the dup’s prefered brexit outcome. they supported leave remember.

      lab/snp can moan all they like but without the dup and/or some tories to support a VONC, they are powerless to change this state of affairs

      so enter treezas latest wheeze, a deal or no deal euref, this wont fly, but if brought forward i would imagine someone will put forward an ammendment for the option to remain. I am unsure of the hoc procedure to do this, or whether the ammendment would get enough support either. even if it did, it is uncertain the final bill for a 3 option euref would pass

      cluster bourach is about right.

    209. cath says:

      A very sensible idea; makes perfect sense. Would also be interesting to see how people in England would vote if it was specifcally put to them in a referendum

    210. Essexexile says:

      Team leave would never stand for a 3 way vote which effectively splits leave and remain wins by default.
      We are stuck I’m afraid and every day that brings us closer to what everyone has said is unthinkable – a no deal Brexit.
      I’m beginning to have genuine fears of this actually happening to be honest. Where the UK starts to look like post Soviet Russia where everybody is worse off except a few ultra wealthy, unscrupulous chancers. Imagine a UK where your life is owned by Mike Ashley and you’re somewhere close. Post Brexit UK is a land of opportunity for these types and the ground under your feet will be sold off to the highest bidder.
      Scotland needs out of it, and that will be night on impossible after March without surrendering a huge chunk of natural resources as a payment to leave.
      I’ve always been of the opinion to trust in NS. I still am but I’d like some reassurance that things are happening behind the scenes to secure Scotland’s future.
      Time for NS to start flexing her muscles I think.

    211. schrodingers cat says:

      supporting a peoples vote or stopping brexit has the widest support among scottish voters (69%), but it does undermine our push for independence. ONLY if this tact succeeds. this is the $1000 question

      i cant see brexit being stopped, not when corbyn and treeza support brexit, it is a risky strategy by nicola, but a calculated one

      at present, it is favourable to no voting remainers, but the polls are now showing that in the event of a no deal brexit, many no voting remainers will switch to yes (59%)

      if a no deal brexit happens, then nicola will be vindicated

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      1. The continental shelf of a coastal State comprises the seabed and subsoil of the submarine areas that extend beyond its territorial sea throughout the natural prolongation of its land territory to the outer edge of the continental margin, or to a distance of 200 nautical miles from the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea is measured where the outer edge of the continental margin does not extend up to that distance.

      UNCLOS PART VI CONTINENTAL SHELF Article76 “Definition of the continental shelf”

      http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part6.htm

      There is no question that Scotland would have full access to and rights over our Continental Shelf, our 200 nm EEZ, and the UK is a ratified signator to UNCLOS – the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The only question is the media line from the land border into the sea, and the intermediate 12nm one which follows different rules on perpendicularity.

    213. yesindyref2 says:

      median, not media.

    214. galamcennalath says:

      “TOP STORIES
      Brexit: No 10 says it will escalate planning for no deal – Politics live “

      Why? Has no one explained ECJ ruling to them? A no deal crash and burn Brexit SHOULD NOT now be allowed to happen when they have a guaranteed straightforward alternative.

      To maintain the democratic aspects of a unilateral cancellation they don’t need a ‘people’s vote’, they only need a free vote in parliament when the choice has been reduced to disaster versus common sense.

    215. Proud Cybernat says:

      Good article from Craig Murray:

      The Scottish Parliament Does Have the Right to Withdraw from the Act of Union

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/

    216. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      Pretty much. Scotland’s population could have a referendum any time they felt like it and as often as they felt like it.

      Keeping it simple for folks though: The people of Scotland are sovereign. What they say goes. If a party is elected to power and seeks a specific mandate, and if that mandate is granted by the people, then that party and government can act.

      A specific mandate was sought four years ago and denied. The government was instructed by a slim majority to act within the constraints of devolution. This they have duly done. In subsequent manifestos they have made it clear that only a significant movement or injury to the constitutional settlement or status quo by one party or events would allow them to revisit that result and seek a further mandate from ALL of the population. Once again they will act on the instruction they are given.

      Right now they have a triple lock on the mandate to ask that question as and when they deem conditions have been met. As yet, we are still EU members.

      They didn’t cause Brexit and they’re not responsible for being a devolved government. That’s on those folk who decided against independence last time out (whatever their reasoning).

      If people are scared? Good! I’m scared too and they have every reason to be. How and ever, until pre conditions have actually been met and a mandate sought and given…

      You get the picture.

    217. Shug says:

      See student loan debt is to be added to the national defect
      Isupposescotland will get a share of that to go with hs2
      Folk up here are so stupid it beggers belief

    218. Jack Murphy says:

      Thankyou Legerwood for your two Fisheries links this morning at approximately 11:15am.

      Labour and Tory MPs join forces.

      Worrying,very worrying.

    219. Gfaetheblock says:

      Schroddingers cat @ 12.45

      I think that there is a danger that you are misreading the poll, if it was the panelbase one from earlier in the month. The question asked was

      ‘Do you believe Scottish independence or a no deal Brexit would be better for Scotland?’

      There was nothing in that poll asking about voting intention, you could believe both are good or both bad, it just asks for a comparison between the two.

      Apologies if it is another poll you are referring to

      http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-believe-scottish-independence-or-a-no-deal-brexit-would-be-better-for-sc#table

    220. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      That’s the problem as well as the solution. So far the conditions of the mandate re the EU haven’t been met, though it’s quite arguable that in your words “a significant movement or injury to the constitutional settlement or status quo” has been done by Westminster, or at least, the UK Government.

      Events are happening fast and furious, and perhaps soon that won’t be the only movie being located in Glasgow! (and other cities and towns and villages around Scotland).

    221. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      RE: scottish maritime boundary.

      See this pdf:”Prospective Anglo-Scottish maritime boundary revisited”, particularly pages 98 and 99. Available for download here:-

      http://www.ejil.org/article.php?article=505&issue=34

    222. schrodingers cat says:

      @Gfaetheblock

      possibly, i didnt see the data sets

      thing is, polls which ask questions in the form, if this then what?? are notoriously unreliable, indeed, many folk cant even recall who they voted for 10 months ago….

      point i’m making is a no deal brexit will cause a swing from no to yes, the only real question is “by how much”

      the polls have shown consistently between 4-12%, the exact figures are less important but the polls are beginning to show a trend

      as we approch a no deal 29th march, there will be panic buying, shelves will be stripped, medicines run out etc, with many predicting the uk’s inability to stock the shelves back up……….???

      you would be amazed how a bout of near starvation will focus peoples minds

    223. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      And that’s the why of the can kicking. UK gov know that as soon as events settle or are firmed up there has to be a consequence. So long as they keep the ball in the air, process and procedure cannot be followed. They’re hoping to force or fake a fait accompli upon the populace of the UK in general and Scotland in particular.

      I’d wish them luck with that, but… I’m not entirely sure people are buying their bullshit this time round. 😉

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT
      Yup, I’ve read it. It seems very likely that the median line past the territoriral waters would form the basis, as in Line 2 or 3 of Map 1 on page 98 as you say. The idea of a “Common Area” would hopefully be avoided, as Westminster has shown itself to be totally intransigent in affairs of negotiation.

      Goole maps shows clearly the situation with the coastline variations, looking from Peterhead to Berwick.

    225. schrodingers cat says:

      @macart

      true, but the date 29th march will be difficult to kick down the road

      any attempt by treeza to delay or revoke this date, rees mogg and co will cross the floor and support a VONC.

      it wont be him or bojo that gets their jotters from the tory party members in the constituencies, it will be treeza and anna soubry

    226. mike cassidy says:

      Iain mhor 10.30

      The one thing Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP must do –

      if they are getting behind ‘the people’s vote’ –

      is not call it that.

      Everytime any of them mention it, it should be referred to as a second referendum.

      Not only would they be taking the high ground regarding the stupidity of calling it a people’s vote.

      It also scares shitless the politicians you want to scare shitless.

      Like Liam Fox.

      http://archive.is/JaNAl

    227. DerekM says:

      Ah the act of union people are forgetting that technically no the UK parliament has not broken it… yet!

      You see to actually break the treaty they have to go through with the legislation and leave the EU,the two years they have spent has been all about Scotland and how to keep their greedy criminal hands on our resources and do not kid yourself on that this is not the case they could have left the EU any time after the 2016 vote.

      They have tried everything they could but now find themselves in the position save the UK by not brexiting and piss off their core vote in England and expose themselves to the new EU tax laws or brexit and hope Scotland does not call for the UK union to end.

      Which choice do you think the tories will take,i know i know its a tough one,no wonder May is all over the place lol

      Patience Scotland steady in the front lines the enemy are in the bog crapping themselves,have a great Christmas because 2019 is our year oh round about March 29th 🙂

      Hehe though i see our FM is still trying to get them to jump early i hope she succeeds the sooner the better we can get on with things instead of being stuck on this merry go round of never ending bullshit.

    228. Macart says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Nope, they can’t dodge that one and they now know that polls in Scotland are beginning to flow against their idiocy regardless of the meeja running interference for them.

    229. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      The UK Gov seem to be singularly adept at alienating everyone, while at the same time keeping their vote up in the polls. Hard to believe, except that clearly the people of the UK think that Corbyn is a total dunderheided ditherer and even worse than May.

    230. Proud Cybernat says:

      FM playing hardball with Labour. She knows she can’t call IR2 while a GE is still in the offing as that could scupper IR2-Ref. Hence why she is calling upon Labour to place NC vote on May’s Gov. If they win, then GE. If they lose then that possibility is gone. And only when possibility of GE is gone can the FM be (fairly) sure a GE can’t scupper IR2-Ref. But she can only get to that point by calling upon Labour to call NC vote.

      Labour claiming they’ll call NC vote only when they know they can win it. Well, they’ll never know that unless they actually call the vote because they should know by now that it doesn’t matter what a Tory tells you – even in private – you can never trust a Tory.

      If they never call the NC vote then there won’t be a GE before Brexit. But FM can;t be caught out that Labour will call it at the last moment and scupper IR2.

    231. Early Ball says:

      The No campaign in an English referendum would be placed between a rock or a hard place. They would have to say how much Scotland contributes to the UK economy. That will not be easy given that for years they have said we were subsidy junkies. If they do they will be admitting that Scotland would do fine if we went on our own.

    232. manandboy says:

      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/27/this-is-what-no-deal-brexit-actually-looks-like

      Written in July this year, this piece by Ian Dunt remains important, not least as a sharp reminder, among the hundreds of propaganda-puff pieces, of what a No-Deal will mean.

      It also serves to remind us all that The Tory Party is acting like the drunk driver of a petrol tanker who decides to head out on black ice through a built-up area, telling himself, ‘I must deliver’.

    233. schrodingers cat says:

      if we go past 29th march, with no deal, the ability to stop or delay brexit will be gone.

      the peoples vote will change from remain/leave to rejoin/stay out

      labours ability to renegotiate a new deal will be gone

      nicola will launch indyref2 on the 30th

      lets face it, in the sh1t storm that will follow a no deal brexit, it is unlikely this government will survive

      in any ge after 29th march, the choices for us will be limited

      libdems euref2 and rejoin
      tories, stay out and starve
      snp, vote yes in indyref2
      labour “*)GNN%^& see if I dont! etc

    234. galamcennalath says:

      Yet again, for the umpteen time, the Irish media produces a concise and accurate overview of where we are with Brexit.

      Sobering reading!

      https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/need-to-ask-where-brexit-is-heading-you-haven-t-been-paying-attention-1.3733034

      Rhetorical question – why is the UK media apparently incapable of critical analysis and accurate reporting?

    235. Luigi says:

      It’s pretty obvious that Labour do not want to call a NC vote right now, for two reasons:

      1. They would have to come off the fence and either support or oppose a people’s vote. What – Labour off the fence? Can’t have that, can we!. 🙂

      2. They do not want to appear in any way responsible when Brexit denoates. They would much rather see the country implode, watch people suffer and take over the mess afterward.

      So, their little plot is to try and stand off, with the pathetic little excuse that they can only hold a NC vote when they are sure they can win it (does this fool anyone)?

      However, two big problems with this “clever” strategy:

      1. When Brexit detonates, Labour WILL be held partly responsible. All WM will be tainted for this catastrophy. By absolving from their duty as a real, effective opposition, they are enabling the tories to destroy the country. Labour will also be hated.

      2. Everyone knows the “hold it to win it” excuse is BS. The opposition can hold another NC vote anytime if first it does not succeed. To hide behind this excuse is only making the Labour leadership look like cowards. Are they. 🙂

    236. schrodingers cat says:

      Proud Cybernat

      after the 29th march, i dont think a ge can derail indyref2

      before perhaps, but not after. once we leave, the proposition of cu/sm membership negotiation will be gone for the uk and scotland

      only an indyscotland can join efta (eu)

      the only real unknown is what corbyn will support in the next ge

    237. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      They’ve no choice really. They only know a binary system of politics. It’s what they’ve been taught to expect as the norm. The other parties? They’re there for colour or protest. When it comes to governing? They can’t see past their taught expectations and don’t believe they have the power to change it.

      Best trick the devil ever pulled etc.

    238. schrodingers cat says:

      one option open to treeza is to call another ge, this is something within her power.

      it would at least enable her to put her deal to the people, in the off chance it would win.

      putting it before the commons ensures it will fail.

      then again, even if calling a ge enabled them to clear out the hard brexiteers in her party, a resurgent ukip could damage her chances of winning enough seats in the commons

      labour will just continue talking about, frictionless trade, a jobs first brexit and respecting the will of the people.

      remainers in england would have no one to vote for (except hold nose and vote libdem)

      result, an even more divided hoc

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      I don’t think for the point of view of getting Independence, EU v EFTA is important in itself, but it is important for getting the required YES votes, bearing in mind the 62% Remain and continuing support for Remain as well.

      Which means, with as Angus Robertson says, a strong awareness in the EU now of Scotland’s predicament, it’s important to have, or at least to announce the having of, Indy Ref 2 before the UK crashes out of the EU, because after that is too late for us to be in any sort of a holding pen.

      A holding pen I think the EU will bend over backwards to arrange, once Scotland stands up and says: “We have the right to choose”.

      It’s almost certain in my opinion that after a YES vote, the EU would want a further referendum in Scotland to confirm the terms of formal membership as they wouldn’t want to see a Scexit later on!

      If the EU-27 grants a deferment while the UK has a GE / EURef2, then the clock is reset from before 29th March, to that date plus the 3 or 6 months.

      Hence also why Indy Ref 2 still can’t be announced.

    240. manandboy says:

      BREXIT HAS MORPHED – IT’S NOW AN ANGLO-AMERICAN BUSINESS DEAL.

      Donald Trump hates the European Union. Rupert Murdoch also hates the EU. The xenophobic, racist, neo-liberal British Establishment, have never embraced the European Union, except in a business sense. After all, they’re all foreigners; we British prefer to colonise foreign countries.

      So, once the EU referendum result came in, the fix was on – to swap the EU for the USA.

      This way the British Establishment gets to keep all its tax-protected wealth, both the inherited ‘old-money’ from the colonies, as well as the ‘new neo-liberal money’ taken from the public purse since Thatcher. All of it protected off-shore in Britain’s many tax-havens.

      Which just leaves the Scottish Golden Goose to be tied up once and for all.

      You know it makes sense – to the Establishment.

      Vote Scottish Independence.

      You know it makes sense to Scotland.

    241. schrodingers cat says:

      @dads

      see Proud Cybernat’s post, nicola cant call indyref2 before corbyn has at least tried a VONC and precipitated a ge.

      as we approach the 29th march, the dialogue will reach fever pitch, but it is still possible a ge will happen before the 29th.

      it is out of our hands

      as for holding pens, speedy access to eu membership etc, none of these will be on the table until we vote yes. the upshot is, they wont be part of the indyref2 campaign.

      even after the uk has left, many eu countries will not be happy about meddling in what they see as the uk’s business.

      but i do agree, the distinction between eu and efta is less important for many voters in scotland.

      people who are drowning will grab onto any life line

    242. Mr., Callachan sorry to disagree with you but I say no Incomers should have a vote on Scottish independence. No matter how long they have lived there they are not and never will be Scottish and it is not their country the only ones who have a right to vote on the future of Scotland are the true scots who were born and live in Scotland no one else and if all the Incomers are allowed to vote and postal voting is still allowed it will be like fighting with one hand tied behind our backs and we will lose again and again and again and again

    243. schrodingers cat says:

      A holding pen I think the EU will bend over backwards to arrange, once Scotland stands up and says: “We have the right to choose”.

      i’m also certain that andrew marr will find someone in the european parliament willing to go public on his show to say scotland wont be allowed into the eu.

      guess what every newspaper in scotland will report??

    244. Proud Cybernat says:

      To any newbies to WoS – the post by Blair Paterson is typical of his racist rants. He is not a Scottish indy supporter but, more likely, a shill paid to discredit WoS and the indy movement. Please ignore the content within his racist posts. He represents himself only.

    245. Essexexile says:

      Manandboy@2.07
      That is spot on.
      That bit at the end Event Horizon where the ship is sucked through the portal to Hell…..that is March 29th with no deal in place. Scotland must be in the lifeboat with Starck and Cooper not in the doomed stern section with Captain Miller and Dr Weir!

    246. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat I agree with Proud Cybernat, but disagree with you about the holding pen. I think it will be held open once the Ref is announced. That’s similar to the EU-27 having said that they could extend the 2 year A50 notification while waiting for the results of an EU Ref2, or a GE.

    247. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@12.30pm

      “…………….without surrendering a huge chunk of natural resources to leave.” Who says so. Did you get that from the Daily Mail or Conservative central office. Back to your wee sneaky Britnat comments again.

      You are not fooling anyone.

    248. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      Yeah, that’s why I posted the UNCLOS thing. It’s a typical claim of the more extreme of the unionists, DM, Express and Telegraph more wacky journos. Perhaps Essexexile reads the wrong stuff – and believes it!

    249. Luigi says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      17 December, 2018 at 2:19 pm

      To any newbies to WoS – the post by Blair Paterson is typical of his racist rants. He is not a Scottish indy supporter but, more likely, a shill paid to discredit WoS and the indy movement. Please ignore the content within his racist posts. He represents himself only.

      Indeed, the post mentioned was so transparently despicable it could only have one purpose – to sow division and contaminate the independence movement. It seemed to be rather BritNat in tone, if not content. 🙂

      Best ignore.

    250. Republicofscotland says:

      A possible route out of this farcical union. Quite frankly any route will do, the sooner the better.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/#comments

    251. mumsyhugs says:

      Everyone go and read Wee Ginger Dug’s latest posting. I’m in tears – first of all with sadness and now with pure anger and fury.

    252. Dr Jim says:

      Many thousands of people have taken to the streets in Hungary at the state broadcasters refusal to report the news

      The BBC covered it in their during the night text service so that everyone could be made immediately aware of how to report news without reporting news

    253. Essexexile says:

      No, I don’t know. Of course not. But that’s the point, nobody has any idea only that Scotland is better off in the EU than at the mercy of a no deal Brexit, which as things stand (ie with no change of course) is going to happen.
      No deal puts all our resources at risk of being plundered by every Tom, Dick and Abramovic in the world. Scotland shouldn’t kid itself that measures are in place to prevent it being sold off bit by bit if we all get dragged out together.
      Every bit of legislation put up as a defence so far has been ignored or swatted aside.
      It isn’t a fact but it is a probability.
      And Cubby, could you please stop your weird obsession with acting like some sort of witch finder and making false accusations at anybody you don’t quite like the sound of?
      It makes this forum a pretty hostile place. I’ve no idea how old you are but the constant finger pointing brings to mind the snivelling little runts in the playground who would take to bullying weaker kids in an effort to ingratiate themselves with the more popular kids.
      Grow up FFS.

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      Someone posted a link to Craig Murray’s new blog – good for him, he’s not only run with that 2010 Kosovo case, but the UK Government’s own legal opinion on it 🙂

      I don’t actually agree with him on this though: “There is a worrying lack of activity in this area” (about getting ready for Scotland to be recognised specially in the EU) – what the eye doesn’t see the hand does out of sight. Or something (I just made that up).

    255. David Mills says:

      If Westminster can’t speak on behalf of England in the ending of the 1707 Union,as their is no English parliament. Why are they speaking on behalf of Northern Ireland in the tearing up of the good Friday agreement, as there in no Northern Ireland assembly at moment?

    256. Abulhaq says:

      I take it the author is being ironic or has tongue well in cheek here:

      “Scotland would remain in the Union of the Crowns and the Commonwealth with the other nations, Scottish soldiers will still play pipes and drums at Buckingham Palace. Lifelong friendship and family ties between the nations would continue to blossom in a new understanding”

      If not, rather a sad case of inability to let go and move on to fresh fields which only a clean break with the superannuated old régime can bring.
      Scots Republic has a snappy, modern ring to it.
      .

    257. Dr Jim says:

      Isn’t it funny how the DUP don’t represent the vote of the people of Northern Ireland yet they’re never off the telly but nobody ever broadcasts the opinion of the people who do represent Northern Ireland

      If Scotland didn’t have any MPs in Westminster you’d never know Scotland voted to remain either

      Poor old Wales has fallen into the sea and nobody noticed

      Yes, we clearly are all equal

    258. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      Faisal Islam
      ?
      Breaking:
      On @skynews now: if PM does not announce a date for meaningful vote Today Corbyn will announce no confidence vote IN PM

      CV in PM? Why not Government?

    259. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Ref. the “Holding Pen”

      The EU can’t/won’t interfere in the internal matters of the members/UK at the moment, therefore no mention of Scotlands oncoming plight. What NS has already done on quiet, “background” talks – who knows..? 😉

      However as the 29 March deadline gets ever nearer without real results coming from Treeza’s chaos, then the less inhibited the EU can become with their public opinions.

      If NS/Scotland says, “this is it, we’re going to choose and this is the date”, then IMO the EU would be more open and could certainly offer the “Holding Pen” solution, contingent on Scotland winning.

      By then the EU is probably even more pi**ed off with Treeza’s gang, so being pragmatic and willing to work for a potential “new” member.

      I certainly wouldn’t be ruling it out.

    260. galamcennalath says:

      May says EU leaders said they hoped that the backstop would not be triggered. And they said the EU was ready to start preparations for negotiations on the future as soon as the withdrawal agreement was signed off.

      The Backstop will not be needed IF and only if the future trade agreement is ‘soft enough’.

      A hard Canada style agreement would necessitate special status or NI, or the backstop would kick in.

      I think that’s obvious, is it not?

    261. Cubby says:

      Sunday Politics Scotland

      Brewer got his arse totally booted all over his studio by Derek MacKay SNP during an interview on the Scottish budget. No doubt it will be back to the usual Britnat chatshow for future episodes until Brewer gets his composure back. Well done Derek – perfect example of how to deal with the BBC.

      A lib dem comes on the programme and says Scotland would be better off with less powers for the Scot parliament. Typical Britnat.

      Still think no deal Brexit followed by Scot independence and united ireland is likely.

    262. Dr Jim says:

      I predict lots of EU ministers saying lots of things and visiting Bute house on a regular basis once the UK is not a member state of the EU and watch the Britnat papers and The three member Unionist party go nuts when they do

      They’ll do all the plotty adjectives

    263. Dr Jim says:

      Corbyn says: What can we have a vote on that can’t be enforced let’s do that

    264. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@3.14pm

      I thought we agreed – you stop posting Britnat crap and we avoid each other. Simple really for an independence supporter but for a Britnat who is only on here for negative reasons impossible.

      Never thought you were a witch just something worse a Britnat posing as an independence supporter. All the playground name calling is coming from you. You can rant all you want but keep posting Britnat crap and I will call it out.

    265. galamcennalath says:

      Corbyn threatens vote of no confidence in PM. Odd, I thought it would be a vote of no confidence in the government.

      Maybe, Labour believe a vote on the gov might fail, whereas, a vote on May will probably pass.

      It would be non binding, but how could she stay on under those circumstances?

    266. Proud Cybernat says:

      Faisal Islam
      ?
      PM: I can confirm we will return to the Meaningful Vote debate in week commencing 7 January, and have the vote the following week…

      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1074688060418334722

    267. Luigi says:

      The SG cannot make a Indyref move until the Brexit dust clears. It’s still completely hazy. Does anyone honestly know what the final Brexit outcome will be – really? Soft NO’s are confused enough already. May continues to stall for the sake of her career (selfish). However, the clock is ticking down and the BBC are running out of squirrels. Two points:

      1. The good news is “Not long now – it’s coming”!

      2. However, there is little time – we will have to move bloody fast when it does come.

      So the advice is:

      Hold steady, but be ready to move at ridiculously short notice. 🙂

    268. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May says to Ian Blackford that 56% of Scots voted for pro Brexit parties

      Well I’m not too clear on what she thinks she means by that as no Scottish party supported Brexit, unless she means the opinions of all Scottish Unionist parties is also to be ignored as branch offices

      As far as I’m aware there was only actually one Pro Brexit party officially and that was UKIP and in Scotland you could count those on one hand

    269. Famous15 says:

      The latest duplicitous nonsense from T May is that a majority ofScots voted for “leave” supporting parties.

      Over 62% voted leave but some Scots did indeed vote for London headquartered parties. Did they know their policies on the subject of Brexit. Not in my street they did not!

    270. Famous15 says:

      Sorry,the62% was of course for remain.

    271. Luigi says:

      Looks like Corbyn has bottled it.

      Sigh, another prevaricator. Is that fence just too safe and comfortable, Jeremy? He that risks nothing, gains nothing.

    272. Republicofscotland says:

      And Corbyn pulls back from tabling a motion of no confidence in the PM. Christ we’ve really got to get out of this pantomime as quick as we can.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1074693717288775680

    273. Thepnr says:

      You can tell that things are coming to a head, I do read all the posts on Wings and see from some a little sense of urgency or if I’m honest panic creeping in.

      Perfectly understandable but totally unnecessary, the real panic is both on the Tory and Labour ranks, neither of them have a clue what to do next, that much is obvious.

      Everybody with a brain cell left knows that May’s deal will never get enough support to win and their panic is all about the default of leaving without any deal at all.

      The only party to have consistently shown sense over Brexit has been the SNP and the Scottish Government in their consistency have shown a level of competence way way above that of any of the other politicians or party in the UK.

      We aught to be pleased about that, at least I am. Cool Scottish heads showing the way forward. Nicola Sturgeon is taking a gamble in supporting a 2nd EU referendum but under the circumstances could do nothing other than that, I think it was a good move even though on principle I am against a 2nd EU referendum.

      To argue consistently as the SNP have done that remaining in the EU was your aim and the only acceptable compromise was to remain in the SM/CU was the right move in a country where 62% voted to remain. To have refused to support a 2nd EU referendum would have made her, the SNP and Scottish government look ridiculous.

      Let the rest of them panic while we should remain calm, things definitely will get worse and worse for the Britnat parties and that is a positive for those supporting Independence.

      The biggest downside in my mind is that if a 2nd referendum is called then it might be as far away as September next year and means further delays in calling a 2nd Independence referendum. That’s life though, events must be allowed to play themselves out, all the while though in my opinion the prospect of Scotland voting for Independence increases.

      Support those that are doing their best to bring Independence to our country, that’s what they need and so far as far as I’m concerned are doing a pretty damned good job walking through this minefield.

      Don’t let your impatience give you a sudden urge to run straight through to the end of the minefield just because there’s only a short distance to go else you might get blown up.

      We don’t really want that to happen after treading so carefully for these past 4 years now do we 🙂

    274. Luigi says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      17 December, 2018 at 3:55 pm

      Faisal Islam
      ?
      PM: I can confirm we will return to the Meaningful Vote debate in week commencing 7 January, and have the vote the following week…

      Aye right. 🙂

    275. Dan Huil says:

      May’s desperation about Scotland’s independence was clearly on show today with her pathetic argument about Scots voting for Leave. Britnat arrogance and ignorance from down the rabbit hole.

    276. jfngw says:

      It would seem Jeremy Corbyn has been to the David Mundell politics school. Threaten something with the intention of never doing it.

      I suspect you can get very goods odds on the double bet of Mundell resigning and Corbyn making a no confidence motion, motion being highly appropriate in the Corbyn situation.

      In fact his intention was to call a vote that would not result in an election. Really time for the other parties to force his hand and try and call a VONC in the government, if Labour don’t support it then I think we then know the lie of the land.

    277. Essexexile says:

      Cubby, get tae fuck then ya total bellend. And as you know I only reserve the use of such words for extreme cases. You are a very, very odd individual. Every time you post utter crap about me being a Britnat I see a sad, embittered little loser desperately trying to bolster himself by appointing himself as some sort of forum police.
      I’m by no means the only one on here who thinks you’re a childish little tit. Now, fuck off back to your online gaming (or whatever you use an excuse for a life).
      That is all.
      Words and sentiment (posted under extreme provocation) by K1.

    278. yesindyref2

      It was you who jogged my memory, thanks.

      I accept what you say about work going on with the EU. But the attitude of the developing world is also essential. It’s a UN General Assembly decision to admit to UN membership not a security council decision. There’s not nearly enough understanding of the situation in Africa, for example.

    279. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr at 4:08 pm.

      You typed,
      “The only party to have consistently shown sense over Brexit has been the SNP and the Scottish Government in their consistency have shown a level of competence way way above that of any of the other politicians or party in the UK.”

      Saw this on the WOS Twitter page a wee while ago:-

      Wings Over Scotland Retweeted

      Andrew Adonis
      ?Verified account @Andrew_Adonis
      15 hours ago

      The 5 British institutions which have performed worst over Brexit are, in order:
      – the Conservative party
      – the Cabinet
      – the BBC
      – the Labour party
      – the civil service
      The 3 institutions which have performed best are
      – Parliament
      – the Supreme Court
      the Scottish Government

    280. Ken500 says:

      May will lose the vote in January. If will not get through the Commons. GE soon?

      The majority in Scotland did not vote for Leave Parties. That is another Tory lie.

    281. Thepnr says:

      Watching this performance by May in the HoC and it’s a disaster. She is a total lame duck, many in her own party who support her telling her to get on the “meaningful vote”.

      I’m loving every minute, I can’t stand that woman and despise her government and watching her squirm makes me happy indeed LOL

    282. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The biggest downside in my mind is that if a 2nd referendum is called then it might be as far away as September next year and means further delays in calling a 2nd Independence referendum. That’s life though, events must be allowed to play themselves out, all the while though in my opinion the prospect of Scotland voting for Independence increases.”

      Indeed Thepnr.

      I remember shortly after IndyRef1 I did this absolutely mammoth analysis on the result to try and determine – based purely on population age demographics – when a natural equilibrium would be achieved between YES & NO (with all external factors such as Brexit excluded). If I remember correctly, YES – NO would reach a natural equilibrium in 2020.

      Of course, as I said, my analysis excluded events that could change a lot of people’s minds from their 2014 view/vote. We now have the position where Devo is Dead (or DINO – Devo In Name Only) and are about to be taken out of the EU against our will – 2 additional factors that will hugely increase the YES vote next time. (And I haven’t even touched on the lies/broken promises made by the No Campaign which will also bring many a convert).

      Is it any wonder the British Nationalists simply do not want a 2nd Ref to even happen – they absolutely know they will be utterly trounced next time. And they will be.

    283. Luigi says:

      We are constantly told that with Brexit, the UK facing its biggest crisis for decades. Ok, I understand that, but..

      Why the hell are you MPs disappearing for two weeks? Sorry you greasy turds, but you caused this mess, and the future of the country is more important than your time off or with your families. You should all be locked in the HoC until you come up with a solution. You don’t have time to put your feet up, even if you do feel you have been working so hard (maybe if you had a real job). This sucks.

      Swanning off whilst the country is about to collapse. How selfish. I’m raging. I’m disgusted. But I’m hardly surprised. It seems the “precious” union is not as important as own-time, eh folks?

    284. Proud Cybernat says:

      “May will lose the vote in January. If will not get through the Commons. GE soon?”

      They’ll have the MV filibustered out.

    285. Ken500 says:

      In Scotland 66% of the electorate voted. GE 2017. 37% voted SNP. 31% voted for other Parties.

      21% approx voted for unionists Brexit Parties,

    286. Dr Jim says:

      That’s it confirmed by a question from Jacob Reese Mogg to the PM that denying a second EU referendum is all about making sure they can deny a referendum to Scotland

      Once again it’s all about Scotland’s assets and English greed

    287. yesindyref2 says:

      @Graf Midgehunter
      Worth reading this is you haven’t already.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17300030.angus-robertson-germany-is-seeing-sense-in-scottish-independence/

      The EU Councils can’t say much, nor the Commission, though they might have to ahve a discussion to see if it affected the terms of A50 (“in accordance with its own constitutional requirements” – something the ECJ just “happened” to mention). But the EU Parliament and its members have no such restraint.

      As for Corbyn, I think he’s calling for a vote to see if he should ask for a vote to see if he should think of a vote for a vote of no confidence on something he’ll make his mind up on when he gets around to it if he does.

    288. Thepnr says:

      May attacked by both the left and right in her party. Lame duck.

    289. jfngw says:

      Why would we not hold a second indyref, just because there has not been a second EU ref, no connection unless the option is for Scotland to remain after a second EU vote no matter the overall outcome.

      Scotland’s voters have given both Holyrood MSP’s and Westminster MP’s (from Scotland) the mandate to have a second indyref in Scotland. What WM do regarding a EU ref is of no real interest to me.

    290. jfngw says:

      Oh look Corbyn’s had a Monica Lennon moment, he is claiming that he pulled a no confidence vote after the PM ceded to his demands, despite the fact he knew this outcome prior to the threat.

    291. Colin Alexander says:

      The Scot Parl legislated the Continuity Bill for IF Brexit happens.

      UK Parl legislated to kill CB, IF Brexit happens. In the process UK P. ripped up the 30 year old devolution settlement.

      Time for the Scottish Parl to legislate for indyref2 without setting a date for indyref2, without saying the right to hold one will be used or when it will be used.

      See if it’s challenged by UK and killed by Supreme Court. See if UK Parliament denies the right to self-determination.

      It would force UK’s hand to either allow it or block it. Blocking it would be an anti-democratic outrage.

      Allowing it, it’s ready to be used, or not, at Scot Parl’s choosing.

      Be prepared.

    292. Colin Alexander says:

      I mean legislate for indyref without an S.30. No date set.

      See how UK reacts.

    293. Thepnr says:

      I’ve made my mind up after watching this pantomime in the HoC, there are so many Tories on her own backbenches against any possibility of a No deal that it simply can’t happen.

      Get ready for EU ref 2 because it’s a certainty LOL

    294. geeo says:

      Ah, coco, you were just about to post that wee link to your ‘uk constitution’ you like to speak of ?

      3rd time of asking for it today, maybe it slipped your mind, after all, you appear to be rather stressed by current events not going well for you and your British Nationalist chums.

      Never mind, we are all ears now….will you post the link to prove existance of your ‘uk constitution’ right now ?

      Of as suspected, you are full of something rather unpleasant and odorous ? *(sniff)*

    295. mr thms says:

      Would this affect GERS?

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46591500

      “A change in how student loans are recorded in the public finances will add £12bn to the deficit, following an Office for National Statistics ruling.

      The amount expected not to be repaid, which could be 45% of lending, will be reclassified as public spending.

      Student loans will now significantly push up the UK’s deficit – providing an incentive to reduce tuition fees.”

      CONTINUES

      “The independent economics think-tank, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, says the accounting system has been “absurdly generous” to the government’s finances.

      It says the effort to reflect the real cost of the fees system, in which 70% of students will not fully re-pay, would bring public finances closer to “economic reality”.

      The change applies across the UK, but most of this will be accounted for by lending to students in England.”

      I think GERS would be affected because

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-45421621

      “Is the tuition fees ‘illusion’ about to unravel?

      How can you lend someone almost £120bn and not have a hole in your budget? Or how can you give out £17bn, only receive back £3bn and not be any worse off?

      When you’re the government and it’s the student loans system.”

      When the last GERS figures came out The Guardian headline read

      https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/22/scotland-cuts-its-deficit-but-is-still-outspending-the-uk

      “Scotland cuts its deficit, but is still outspending the UK
      Latest data shows gap between income and spending is four times as much as UK as a whole”

      CONTINUES

      “The latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) data for Scotland shows that for 2017-18 overall state spending hit £73.4bn compared to tax income of just under £60bn, including oil revenues. That left a deficit for the year of £13.4bn, compared with £13.5bn the year before. Scotland’s deficit was equivalent to 7.9% of GDP, while for the UK as a whole it was 1.9%.”

      This has been going since tuition fees were introduced by the Tory/Lib-dem coalition government.

    296. yesindyref2 says:

      You gorra laff, innit!

    297. Thepnr says:

      @jfngw

      “Scotland’s voters have given both Holyrood MSP’s and Westminster MP’s (from Scotland) the mandate to have a second indyref in Scotland.”

      This is what Nicola Sturgeon said after the “mandate” was agreed in the Scottish Parliament:

      “It is now the will of Scotland’s democratically elected national parliament that discussions should begin with the UK Government to enable an independence referendum to be held. People should be given that choice once the details of the UK’s Brexit deal are clear – and the Prime Minister yesterday confirmed to me that she agrees this will be in 18 months to two years from now.”

      I think “once the details of the UK’s Brexit deal are clear” is spelt out plainly enough. So if there is to be a 2nd EU referendum then until the vote takes place the situation regards Brexit is far from clear.

    298. Essexexile says:

      Thepnr
      I honestly hope so but the backbenchers are a pretty fickle bunch. The decline of UKIP may have made them less persuaded by the right wing of the party but if euref2 is mooted, and there is a Daily Express led uprising, the backbenchers will doubtless be against a second vote.

    299. wull2 says:

      Don’t tell me I will have to work over the Break making more popcorn for January.
      Wish I was a WM MP then I would be off to the sun.

    300. Macart says:

      Oh dear gawd! Labour claiming they’ve forced Theresa May to do the thing she was going to do anyway… WTAF? They’ve completely gone off on one. 🙄

      They’ve achieved precisely the square root of hee haw today. This is beyond embarrassing at this point. It’s a complete farce.

    301. Colin Alexander says:

      In case UK does or would block indyref legislation, if there’s a General Election, then that’s the time when MP candidates must seek a mandate that:

      The Scottish Parliament has the right to hold referendums without interference from UK state, as the people of the Kingdom of Scotland are entitled to democratic self-determination.

      If the Scottish Parliament’s right to hold indyref is interfered with, Scotland’s MP’s have the right to hold a National Convention to declare provisional independence.

      Following the provisional declaration of independence an indyref confirmatory vote will be authorised by the Scottish Parliament as representing the sovereign people of Scotland and authorised under Scots Law.

    302. jfngw says:

      Theresa May claims that the EU referendum in Scotland was irrelevant as subsequently they voted for pro-Brexit parties. So she can ignore a referendum result if she wants, that’s three ignored now for Scotland, if you consider the recent power grab as a reversal of a referendum decision.

      I just wait for confirmation from (Scottish) Labour that they were campaigning for Theresa May’s Brexit in 2017.

      It would seem that Westminster is a proportional legislator when it suites them but not otherwise. Using this logic the current Tory government is also not legitimate, plus every other government in my lifetime. I include the coalition as there was no coalition party on the ballot paper.

    303. Cubby says:

      Essexexile @4.22pm

      The Mr Angry Britnat from Essex shows his true colours. Britnats fighting each other all over the UK are losing the plot. Getting a bit upset at your glorious Westminster and its leader making itself a laughing stock across the globe.

      I thought you claim to be a victim of aggressive bad language. I thought you were against such behaviour. Seems like you are happy to dish it out when it suits you. A Mr Angry Britnat hypocrite.

      Keep posting Britnat crap and I will call it out. You can bawl and swear as much as you want.

      Independence is normal and mad Britnats like you will soon be a point for discussion in history classes.

    304. Cubby says:

      jfngw@5.42pm

      The Maybot is all over the place with that ridiculous comment. Did she not check with her pal Ruth who told the people of Scotland that it was all about the Indyref not the EU REF. TORIES HAVE THE BIGGEST BRASS NECKS GOING. One minute the GE17 was about no Indy ref next min it is a Brexit ref.

      The Britnats are a total laughing stock.

    305. Colin Alexander says:

      Just for you Geeo, sorry some long words in it, more than four-letter words. Ask someone to help you with it.

      https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution

      Also: from the Supreme Court case press release re Continuity Bill:

      “The UK Parliament has the power to authorise Ministers to make subordinate
      legislation, but the effect of section 17 would be to make the legal effect of such subordinate legislation conditional upon the consent of the Scottish Ministers. The imposition of this condition would be inconsistent with the recognition in section 28(7) of the Scotland Act that the UK Parliament has unqualified legislative power in Scotland. It would therefore have to be treated as impliedly amending (and thus modifying) section 28(7) of the Scotland Act [52].

      In other words the UK constitutional arrangement is:

      UK Parliament has unlimited power over Scotland.

      UK Parliament is Crown, Lords and Commons.

      So, unelected Lords like Lady Mone and Lord Darling, can make laws for you and me and everyone in Scotland and we cannot stop them. They already have: the legislation blocking the Holyrood Continuity Bill passed by our democratically elected representatives in the Scottish Parliament, was blocked by legislation from the Lords.

      That’s Scotland’s place in the UK constitution. Confirmed by the Supreme Court of the UK.

    306. yesindyref2 says:

      The Scottish Parliament has the right to hold referendums without interference from UK state

      Already does as I kindly explained above. Don’t you read?

    307. Thepnr says:

      Corbyn just tabled the motion of “No confidence in the Prime Minister” speaker puts it on hold.

    308. wull2 says:

      My finger is getting sore scrolling past certain people, I wonder if you can guess who I am talking about, I do not mention his name, that only gives him Oxygen to post again.

      I could not say what he is going on about, as soon as I see his name I just scroll past.

    309. jfngw says:

      Wildly O/T

      I had a quick look at civilian casualties in WWII in the six years of the war, according to wikipedia these were 67,200. If reports to go by are correct the Tory government has easily beaten this in recent years, although I believe their casualties have been more targeted here than the Axis powers ones ever were.

    310. Essexexile says:

      Cubby, it’s clearly the Essex bit that bothers you. If you can get past the nasty, racist little Scotlander thing perhaps we can have a grown up conversation.

    311. yesindyref2 says:

      Get a load of that 5.52 posting, what a heap of steaming roses!

      We’re gonna need a bigger shovel. And a bigger chanty.

    312. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Laura Kuensberg just mentioned: “Judgement Day.”

      Does this mean big Arnie is coming to terminate the Maybot?

    313. Marie Clark says:

      Socrates MacSporran @ 6.04, Dinnae build oor hopes up LOL, before the PC brigade pipe up.

    314. Republicofscotland says:

      Corbyn appears to have changed his mind again and is tabling a motion of no confidence in the PM, but not the government. In other words it’s a meaningless gesture.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    315. geeo says:

      Debate starting on 7th Jan. Vote the following week.

      That could be Friday 18th jan, just 3 days (weekend) earlier than the much slaughtered 21st jan final chance she advocated after cancelling last vote.

      Chancer, delivering politics by the stupid, for the stupid.

      Aided by Pet stooge, Corbyn.

      Calls a PM VONC opposition motion, knowing it is…

      a) NON BINDING.

      b) opportunity for tories to feel safe about voting on his motion against their leader, knowing it means fuck all as knot binding vote

      c) a sham where Corbyn gets to posture, while absolutely NOTHING changes.

      Must think we are all daft.

      Sadly, an awful lot are.

    316. Dan Huil says:

      Now they’re saying Corbyn will indeed table the no-confidence motion. Britnat brexit: total utter britnat bourach!

    317. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@5.57 pm

      Mr Angry has turned into Mr play the racist card then morphed into Mr Reasonable. Just how many different Britnats are posting as Essexexile.

      It is always the last resort of a Britnat to play the racist card. Won’t work with me. It just again confirms that you are a Britnat.

      Stop posting anti independence comments it’s that simple. No grown up or expletive filled conversation required.

    318. Just posted this on the wrong thread!

      Meg merrilees says:
      17 December, 2018 at 5:55 pm
      Corbyn just tabled a motion of no confidence in the PM she has walked out of the chamber

    319. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Blair Paterson at 2.11

      I’d restrict it to those that understand punctuation.

    320. mr thms says:

      Two interesting tweets on Section 17 and the Presiding Officer

      https://twitter.com/AileenMcHarg/status/1073260333337337861

    321. jfngw says:

      Even if the vote was 649 to 1 against Theresa May she will not resign. She never resigns, just look at her record as Home secretary, now PM, she has no self awareness. Must be something in her past I suspect!

    322. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@6.01 pm

      Bloody hell Colinshit/coco is telling us the UK constitution is written down. Its on a press release. Hold the press – major announcement – Britnat finds Britains Written constitution – it’s been written on a press release. Better than back of a fag packet I suppose.

      The link he posts I have read previously – it is the englishmans guide to an English constitution.

    323. geeo says:

      Oh dear me ….coco thinks Magna Carta (1215) is the Uk constitution !!!

      1707 – 1215 = magna cartna signed 492 years BEFORE the Uk existed !

      Then, in a moment of comedy gold, he then thinks that the Supreme court has become the constitution…or was it the judgment which he thinks became ‘the uk constitution’.

      Then of course, he says, in the same breath, that the Uk has an ‘unwritten’ constitution…!!!

      So now it’s NOT the Magna Carta nor the SC NOR the SC judgement, which is this unwritten constitution…(laughing with tears emoji)

      ……….

      Constitution: A constitution is primarily a set of rules and principles specifying how a country should be governed, how power is distributed and controlled, and what rights citizens possess.

      It is usually written down and contained within a single document.
      ………..

      You might want to re read the ACTUAL ruling of the SC.

      If WM had not used ‘sleekit’ moves to illegally subjugate Scots Law (the SC ruled the CB Competent in the whole when passed at Holyrood, except a single paragraph) the CB ABSOLUTELY WOULD have received Royal Assent and been passed into law.

      So in short, and as usual, yer talkin mince, coco.

      Deary me… ?

    324. Marie Clark says:

      Thepnr @ 5.54pm ” Corbyn just tabled a motion of “No confidence in the Prime Minister” speaker puts it on hold”.

      Phillip Sim BBC (spit) on twitter: ” So now there is a motion but there might not be a vote to see if there might be enough votes to have a proper motion”. WHIT!!

      They’re playing silly buggers again.

    325. Bill Hume says:

      Now I hope you will excuse me….I’ve had very nice bottle of wine so my ramblings may not be trustworthy, but….
      I’ve been thinking.
      Much is made of the amount of cash which will no longer be available to the remaining part(s) of the UK in the event that Scotland becomes independent.
      It may be considerable, however, who will it hurt?
      The average Englishman but not the people who are driving Brexit.
      They have their assets tucked away in offshore accounts ( not in £UK….probably American Dollars) so they don’t give a toss what happens to the £Sterling.
      Who would still be pumping the oil out of the North Sea…the same multi nationals who are pumping the oil out of the North Sea as we speak. They will still be making (substantial) profits for their shareholders.
      The Brexiteers only have one worry and that is if the EU flushes their tax ‘avoidance’ schemes down the toilet.
      So, in essence, who would be hurt by Scottish independence? The English working class who have been ‘persuaded’ to vote for these charlatans in the first place…………and they don’t matter to the people driving Brexit.

    326. Thepnr says:

      @Marie Clark

      I know, pretty pathetic really but no more than we’ve came to expect.

    327. geeo says:

      @cubby.

      The ‘missle’ was reported for his foul mouthed rant at you earlier.

      Probably got a slap with those famous ‘hammers’.

    328. One_Scot says:

      Just saw the News. I thought I was keeping up with what is going on, but it looks like after every five minutes that pass, I am already behind the curve. 🙁

    329. Dan Huil says:

      @Bill Hume 6:34pm

      “So, in essence, who would be hurt by Scottish independence? The English working class who have been ‘persuaded’ to vote for these charlatans in the first place…………and they don’t matter to the people driving Brexit.”

      That’ll be the same English working class who have been “persuaded” , and thus truly believe, that Scotland is an economic burden on England.

    330. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      It’s telling that when asked for a written (and therefore codified) UK Constution, he refers to an article about the Magna Carta (England) which only references the Bill of Rights 1689 (England), while totally ignoring the Declaration of Arbroath (Scotland) and the Claim of Right 1689 (Scotland).

      Tells us all we need to know, frankly.

    331. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      Labour, well maybe nominally, councillors in Aberdeen cheerleading for the Tories

      https://mobile.twitter.com/CatMackenzie7/status/1074632463027187713

    332. Referendum1707 says:

      Thepnr 4.08

      Thanks for that comment, one of the best on here today.

    333. Merkin Scot says:

      The Beeb said that Corbyn was ~”…going to table a symbolic vote….”
      Symbolic vote?
      Jesus Wept.

    334. Marie Clark says:

      Robert Peston on twitter reporting ” Labour chief whip Nick Brown just told the Parliamentary Labour Party that Corbyn will table no confidence motion in the entire government under fixed term parliament act if T May refuses to give time tomorrow for no confidence vote in her, Labour MP tells me”.

      What was wrong with doing that today instead of fannying aboot with no confidence vote in the maybot which meant nothing anyway, and they did not need to give it parliamentary time anyway.

      Is it me. Am I missing something here?

    335. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@6.46pm

      Exactly. As I said about Essexexile he is either a not very bright independence supporter or a Britnat. I say a Britnat. A deliberate disrupter on Wings to spread misinformation.

    336. Kenno says:

      The collapse of England continues.

    337. Colin Alexander says:

      “yesindyref2 says:
      17 December, 2018 at 5:54 pm
      “The Scottish Parliament has the right to hold referendums without interference from UK state”

      Already does as I kindly explained above. Don’t you read?”

      As I pointed out, the UK COULD interfere by amending the Scotland Act again, if it chose to.

      As UK Parliament has unlimited power to legislate.

    338. Legerwood says:

      mr Thomas @ 5.18pm

      Student loans adding to UK debt.

      I think this is the Tories equivalent of Labour’s PFI. Gordon Brown thought that PFI was a jolly wheeze allowing to keep massive debt ‘off the books’.

      The Tories have treated student debt in the same way but, like Brown, they have now to put it ‘on the books’.

      The Student Loan Company produces annual financial statements for each part of the UK. England’s student debt stands at £104 Billion. Students are being charged 6% interest on their loans. Furthermore the UK Government have been ‘selling off’ the debt to private companies who will then collect the money.

      You can check out the figures here

      https://www.slc.co.uk/official-statistics/student-loans-debt-and-repayment/england.aspx

    339. Cubby says:

      geeo@6.38 pm

      Thanks geeo. He isn’t the first and I don’t think he will be the last Britnat to be abusive to me. However, from a guy playing the victim card about getting foul language abuse he certainly displays the usual Britnat brassneck.

    340. Breeks says:

      This bollocks about Corbyn and his elastic no confidence motions, and May with her patronising shite about respecting the will of the people knowing full well Scotland voted Remain, is all a million miles away from ANYTHING that is in Scotland’s best interests. To obstruct a referendum to protect democracy is classic through the looking glass stuff. It is surreal, and beyond parody.

      Can anybody explain to me my Scotland’s First Minister is demanding a bit part in this Farce, agitating for a People’s Vote for the whole UK, rather than taking care of business, standing stoic and firm defending Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty from Westminster’s rabid colonial ambition? I’m getting mighty fkn sick of this nut house creep show.

      102 days left.

      We still can’t plan ANYTHING because we don’t know the details??? Oh do f___ _f.

      Guess what, the EU doesn’t know the final details either, but they’ve still got the UK’s Brexit trussed up like a kipper, fully compartmentalised, with tourniquets at the ready for the chop, Ireland has the whole of Europe in its corner, and if Westminster even squeaks about not paying its debts, it will rogue status for the UK and inward investment will evaporate permanently.

      But Scotland? Constitutional Sovereignty in the pipe, benign encouragement from the EU , a Nationalist Government in Edinburgh, and Nationalist majority at Westminster, a sovereign mandate to stay in Europe, a democratic mandate to hold a referendum, an ECJ judgement flagging sovereignty as the definitive issue on Article 50, taken to Europe under Scots Law, yet somehow, against all the odds, we somehow can’t even get Scotland mentioned on the fkn agenda???

      People’s vote eh? Fk off.

      REVOKE SCOTLANDS ARTICLE 50.

    341. Essexexile says:

      feel @6.38
      Good luck with that. If there’s something I’ve learned about this forum, it’s that foul mouthed rants go unpunished seemingly under the guise of desperately trying to keep some degree of unity among the sensible posters and raging bampots that post here.
      Everything I’ve had thrown at me in the last few months has been wholly unjustified given the mild content I posted. Whereas Cubby has been a persistent pain in the arse who had it coming.
      If this is how he behaves in the real world (on the fairly ambitious assumption that he occasionally leaves his keyboard) I expect he’s been told to f**k off more than once in his life.
      He has a lot in common with wasps. Irritating and pointless.

    342. Colin Alexander says:

      yesindyref2

      What it shows is what the UK believes is its constitution.

      UK = England (and it’s colonies: Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland).

      Wasn’t so long ago we were all talking about Henry VIII powers of UK Parliament.

      So, of course UK is all about England. Didn’t you know Scotland counts for nothing in the UK?

      Or are you saying Scotland and England are equal partners in the UK?

    343. starlaw says:

      I await with baited breath for Jeremy’s vote of no confidence in the Tory Government. … I have no confidence in Jeremy.

    344. Cubby says:

      Socrates Macsporran@6.04pm

      Now I bet there would be a majority in the HofCommons for that. I’d pay a lot of money to watch that movie.

    345. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 17 December, 2018 at 11:12 am:

      ” … Sorry Mr Peffers you just proved what I said –

      No! Your own words shoot your claims down in flames.

      ” … Englands sovereign queen and its MPs can declare the treaty terminated. That is not UDI.”

      There’s the flaw in your argument., “The English Queen AND “IT’, MPs. There are no MPs of a parliament of England because there has been no Parliament of either the kingdom or the country of England since it sat in April 1707 and declared itself in permenent recess.

      Furthermore, the Queen of The Kingdom of England is concurrently Queen of the People of Scotland. If she chooses to sign an Act of the Parliament of HER United Kingdom but it is against the express wishes of the sovereign people of Scotland the legally sovereign people of Scotland can invoke the declaration in the Declaration of Arbroath that states if the monarch of Scots is not protecting their legal sovereignty they will drive him/her out and appoint another in her place and that would also end the union. It is, after all a union of kingdoms – not a union of countries.

      If the monarch of both kingdoms is not acceptable to the legally sovereign people of Scotland and they appoint a monarch in the former joint monarch’s place then it becomes two independent monarchies again. You cannot have a United Kingdom with two different monarchs.

      However, Westminster is not the parliament of England and there is not a singe member of a country of England Member in the house of Commons. Every one of them is equally a member of the United Kingdom parliament but only those from Scotland represent the people that elected them.

      Every non-Scottish member of the House of Commons is elected by their constituents but they legally represent Her sovereign majesty of the Kingdom of England for she is the only sovereign person in the entire Kingdom of England and everyone and everything in that kingdom are legally hers.

      It is even officially titled, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her United Kingdom”, but she is not legally sovereign in Scotland and she does now own Scotland or the people of Scotland. We are not her subjects – factually and legally she is our subject.

      You’ve been listening far too long to Westminster propaganda and contrived lies. Yet the truth is there before your eyes.

    346. schrodingers cat says:

      anyone care to explain what happens if vonc in treeza happens and she walks?

    347. schrodingers cat says:

      Breeks says:

      We still can’t plan ANYTHING because we don’t know the details??? Oh do f___ _f.
      ————-

      we can plan plenty, but as for announcing indyref2 tonight, id prefer to wait and see if treeza survives tomorrows vonc

    348. cearc says:

      Marie,

      Dunno, I’m Still trying to work out whether Philip Sim’s tweet

      https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1074716860216696833

      is for real or a joke, it’s pretty hard to tell these days.

    349. yesindyref2 says:

      As UK Parliament has unlimited power to legislate

      I can’t be bothered with this, do some reading and learning.

    350. schrodingers cat says:

      If the monarch of both kingdoms is not acceptable to the legally sovereign people of Scotland and they appoint a monarch in the former joint monarch’s place
      ————-

      me me me me, king schrodinger’s cat has a nice ring to it 🙂

    351. Graf Midgehunter says:

      yesindyref2 @ 4.45pm says:

      @Graf Midgehunter

      Worth reading this is you haven’t already.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17300030.angus-robertson-germany-is-seeing-sense-in-scottish-independence/
      ——————–
      Thanks for the link. It’s good.

      That seems to confirm what my feeling is, that there is a growing sympathy from the German political side towards an independent Scotland.

      Nicola S. and Angie Merkel are very similar in character and the way they do their jobs. Both are intelligent, can think strategically/plan long term, keep calm and have strong public support.

      From what I’ve seen they also get on well with each other.

      Merkel will still be around for another couple of years but she planned her follow up carefully with Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer (called AKK..!) who I’m pretty certain will continue in the same vein.

      When it comes to the big push for indy 2 I think we’ll have them as allies.

      Prussia, Bismarck built/forged the various small, loosely grouped independent states into the one German State in 1871.
      Bismarck started the fledgling health service, unified the civil service, boosted manufacturing and turned the country into a modern well run society.

      When I was in conversation about Scotland with some German friends at a xmas dinner a couple of weeks ago, someone said they thought Scotland sounded more like the:

      “Prussia of the UK”…!! That’s praise.. 🙂

    352. Colin Alexander says:

      @ yesindyref2

      I read this:

      Parliament’s authority – UK Parliament

      https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
      Parliament’s authority.

      It says:

      “Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law.

      Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.”

    353. Robert Peffers says:

      This from a day ago:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rojiD7iddM

      So now ask yourself why do Scots not see such interviews on BBC Scotland or STV?

      Why do we not get to read about them or hear them on Scottish radio stations and in Scottish newspapers?

      Or is that a silly question?

    354. Hamish100 says:

      Kenno says:
      17 December, 2018 at 9:23 am
      Hamish 100
      The only “fool” that I can see is you ya fuckin halfwit,,,if you didn’t constantly keep posting and answering to Trolls then maybe they would go elsewhere..
      And if they annoy you that much why the fuck do you spend so much time and energy reading their fuckin posts???
      The only Troll I see on here is you,,,how about trying to post something that is relevant to Scottish Impendence???

      Ahh Kenno you’re mask is slipping. So are you a rock or a hard place ? a jaggy wee plant, someone who was threatening me a wee while ago and got removed? What was your positive slant on independence? It seemed to get lost in your post.lol

    355. Capella says:

      mr thms says:
      17 December, 2018 at 6:18 pm
      Two interesting tweets on Section 17 and the Presiding Officer

      https://twitter.com/AileenMcHarg/status/1073260333337337861

      Very interesting. Thx for posting link.

    356. schrodingers cat says:

      corbyn wasnt gonna call a vonc until he thought he could win, it will be interesting to see which tories rebel or the dup

      nicola unhappy, she wanted a vonc in the government, not the leader. Im not sure this will make a big difference, if treeza falls, whoever the tories elect as pm will most likely call a ge

    357. geeo says:

      @shrodingers cat.

      The VONC is of Treeza’s leadership not the Tory gov and is 100% non binding.

      It is a sop by Corbyn, he gets to grandstand, tories get to send a message to treeza, but ultimately, nothing else will happen.

      This drivel is labour helping the tories kill some time to no deal crash out brexit, which is clearly the aim of ALL unionist parties, despite the rhetoric.

      Only one party has set out realistic methods of progressing with their ideas.

      The SNP .

    358. Capella says:

      Craig Murray’s latest post is indeed excellent and deserves wide distribution as someone upthread mentioned. The utter chaos in Westminster certainly points to an early departure. Would a Christmas declaration be too soon, or should we wait for Burns’ Night (repatriating Gordon Brown’s trick of hijacking iconic Sottish dates).

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/#comments

    359. yesindyref2 says:

      There you go Colin, that’s your bible, what the UK thinks of parliamentary authority. I guess you haven’t done any of that Scottish reading, nevermind.

      What you miss is that in the UK at least we have a legislative that is not the judiciary, and vice versa. The effect is that Courts can not make laws, neither can they MODIFY them. To be fair to you, there are several people elsewhere are talking a different language on that about the UKSC ruling, and some of them really should know better.

      The legislative makes laws. The judiciary interprets them. And hey, the executive executes them (though the death penalty was abolished long ago).

    360. Cubby says:

      Robert peffers@7.26 pm

      Mr Peffers

      I will start by referring to your final paragraph. No one is immune from the cringe or the all pervasive Britnat propaganda and how it makes you think about and interpret issues relating to the UK. Some just more than others. I am no different.

      I am happy to admit I should have been more precise in my comment and made it clear that I meant the Queen’s MPs from England/Wales/N.Ireland. I do however stand by my conclusion that the Kingdom of England terminating the Treaty of Union is not UDI if authorised by the Queen with the assistance of her MPs.

      An other comment I would make on the rest of your post is where does EVEL leave your comment below:
      “Every one of them is EQUALLY (my bold) a member of the UK parliament ” – if this is an illegal change then who should be policing such changes?

      In summary the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England can both terminate ( together or separately) the Treaty of Union and this is not UDI. Wales or N. Ireland can in theory do an UDI but not by terminating the Treaty of Union.

    361. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100
      Indeed, same style.

    362. schrodingers cat says:

      @geeo

      thanks for the reply, i am genuinely ignorant about wm procedure here. but if treeza loses, will she stay on?

      Nicola tweets
      Labour tabling a motion just in the PM rather than in the entire government begs the question, which Tory do they want to see as PM?

      personally, i would like to see a no deal tory, like mogg as next pm. he would certainly call a new ge but even if he didnt, indy would be assured either way

    363. msean says:

      All this about Mr Corbyn,as leader of the opposition,not calling no confidence votes in the government.I know you may not win it.People just want some hope that the tories are being challenged.

      Seems they are afraid to be seen losing a vote in Westminster v the Tories,even to the point of sitting on their hands when the poorest in society need them to stand up and at least be counted,even when they will lose.

    364. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      Craig Murray’s post is a very worthwhile one. Doesn’t mean I totally agree with it, it’s a point of view and we all have different ones.

    365. Luigi says:

      Could it be that Corbyn is actually more afraid that he may win a NC vote rather than scared we will loose it?

      Just askin’. 🙂

    366. @mr thms,

      Interesting about the English student debt crisis,

      `English University graduates, for example, are estimated to have an average loan debt of $55,000, compared with an average of $20,000 five years earlier. Total student loan debt in England has reached nearly $100 billion.`

      the UK Gov list this debt as an asset,

      the debt is more toxic than the subprime mortgage crisis,

      the Gov are now selling this bad debt to private companies at knock down prices,

      Sale of Student Loans Act 2008,
      https://tinyurl.com/yak5s2q6

      Further Education is just a very big/bad business.

    367. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, it is interesting that Provision 1 starts: “That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain

      and then Provision 3 “That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain

      So basically speaking remove the unity of the Twa Kingdoms, and the Parliament of Great Britain ceases to exist.

      So if the People of Scotland remove the monarch, that also removes the parliament.

      Bye now, thanks for all the pish. God save King Frankie (Boyle).

    368. Robert Peffers says:

      In answer to Cubby on the question of UDI.

      In the first place there is no such parliament as the Parliament of either the country or kingdom of England. That means there are no such things as Members of the Parliament of England.

      Secondly the people of the Kingdom of England only get to choose who becomes a member for their particular constituency but that member represents the Sovereign Queen of England – not those who voted for that member.

      Thirdly the Parliament of Westminster is officially, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her United Kingdom”, but she is not sovereign under Scots law and, under Scots law, the Declaration of Arbroath states that not only are the people legally sovereign but they have the legal right to, “Drive out”, a sovereign that does not protect their sovereign right.

      So if Her Sovereign Majesty of The Kingdom of England signs into law an ACT of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom Parliament that is against the best interests of the legally Sovereign people of Scotland then Her Majesty is acting against the best interest of the people of Scotland and the sovereign people of Scotland can, as per the Declaration of Arbroath, drive her out and replace her.

      You cannot have a United Kingdom with two different monarchs.

      As to UDI – Westminster is not the parliament of either the country or the kingdom of England and every member elected to it is a United Kingdom Member.

      So if a faction from within that United Kingdom Parliament membership declare independence it most certainly is a UDI.

      Here is a definition of UDI:-

      “The process of a unilateral declaration of independence – “UDI” – is when a new state is established within an existing “country”, declaring itself sovereign and independent – without consent of the “country” from which it is seceding.”

      So the United Kingdom is not a country. Neither is it a union of countries. It is, as its title describes it, A two equally sovereign union of Kingdoms.

      Granted that it could be loosely termed a State but it is a state of two equally sovereign partners. Thus the individual country of England is not a member partner in the United Kingdom – the, (three country), Kingdom of England is the member kingdom.

      Furthermore, there is no parliament of England so there are no members of it. They are all Members of Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her United Kingdom. If one Kingdom of that two kingdom parliament declares independence then it is the sovereign of that kingdom that owns that kingdom.

      The people of the Kingdom of England are not legally sovereign but the people of the Kingdom of Scotland are. So if the English, (sic), MPS declared independence it would be UDI against the Queen of The United Kingdom but if the Scottish MPs declared independence, (with the mandate of the people of Scotland), there is no UDI.

      Put another way the MPs from the Kingdom of England are chosen by the non-sovereign people but they represent the Queen of England and they sit in the United Kingdom Parliament – not the parliament of England.

      The MPs from Scotland sit in the United Kingdom Parliament but they represent the sovereign people of Scotland and the United Kingdom Parliament has only two kingdom partners.

      The key is that the Scots MPs must have the people of Scotland’s mandate.

      There are no England MPs at Westminster they are all Kingdom of England Members.

    369. Dr Jim says:

      HM The Queen has no power to authorise anything, the Queens *power* like Sewel is a convention and like Sewel the UK government can disregard it but *not normally* do

      The Queen is a facade, a show of presentation, a tourist attraction, a circus act if you will, but power, she has none
      indeed she is a burdonsome benefit recipient because she doesn’t spend her money back into the economy like poor people do, she keeps it and circulates it amongst her family of benefit recipients

    370. Bob Mack says:

      @Luigi,

      I think Corbyn is ambivalent about remaining in the EU in any form. What I do think is that he is playing for the next General Election where he will gather the votes of disenchanted Tory voters. He is too cowardly to take on Brexit, given most of Labour constituencies in their heartlands voted to leave . He wants to keep those votes as well.

      The only strategy he can adopt is to moan from the sidelines at anything and everything, but actually do nothing whilst the Tories implode, as we will see post Brexit.

      The guy is a moral vacuum but is playing a strategy of sorts.

    371. Rock says:

      Kenno says:
      17 December, 2018 at 9:23 am

      “Hamish 100

      The only “fool” that I can see is you ya fuckin halfwit,,,if you didn’t constantly keep posting and answering to Trolls then maybe they would go elsewhere..

      And if they annoy you that much why the fuck do you spend so much time and energy reading their fuckin posts???

      The only Troll I see on here is you,,,how about trying to post something that is relevant to Scottish Impendence???”

      Cubby = Hamish 100?

      Just asking politely.

    372. PacMan says:

      @ Sarah & Cubby

      Thank you both for your kind and encouraging words.

      This was at the back of my mind all last week and when thinking about it today with what I had posted, I have to admit, I’m sore because I again I’ve been taken in by Labour. Sure, Labour is deservedly dead in Scotland but I had dared to hope that Corbyn would get old Labour back and sort themselves out south of the border.

      Sure I had got stung before, which I had mentioned in last nights post by yon gas-lighting by the British nationalists but this time I was wise to to it but still got taken in.

      I’m in my forties and only every experienced Labour rule under Blair and Brown. I grow up with and throughout my adult life, until Labour got in, being enthralled by the exploits of Labour through family, friends and work colleagues. After new Labour got in, the euphoria soon ended and like everybody else, apathy crept in and I withdrew from politics.

      Okay, I knew Corbyn was a dead duck but deep down, I had hoped that Old Labour would something come back. These exploits that I grew up with was just that, myth. Revisionist history by Labour apparatchiks and spoon-fed to the masses.

      The simple fact is, Labour, old and new just want to let society destroy itself so they can come to the rescue. They offer no direction other than that and nothing positive. They are like a parasite, feeding on a body, weakening it but not enough that they kill it. This is obvious for all to see with their dithering, inaction and lack of leadership on this Brexit fiasco.

      If ordinary Scots wait for Labour to sort themselves out, they will be waiting until doomsday.

      Nationalism doesn’t sit well with me but Scottish independence doesn’t equate to nationalism. If any of this Labour lot say otherwise, that is their opinion and nothing but that. Why on earth would anyone with an ounce of common sense listen to them, never mind care what they thought about them?

      With the Tories, you don’t expect anything less than what they are but Labour is supposed to stand for the ordinary man and woman. They only use the goodwill and hope of the ordinary folk. That is worse than the Tories. There was an old law called “betrayal under trust” which was even more severe in the eyes of the law than murder. Labour with betraying ordinary folk in order to further their own ends are guilty of the same thing, not legally but morally.

      I know everybody is not happy with the direction NS and the SNP are taking with Brexit but she and the SNP are acting on the wishes of the Scottish people and have consistently proved this time and time again throughout this sordid affair that is Brexit.

      In taking this fully to it’s logical extreme, the fallacy that unionism is will be fully exposed and will be laid bare as the lie that it is nothing but British nationalism, pure and simple.

      It will then be up to the people of Scotland to decide whether what they want.

    373. Dr Jim says:

      Mention and thanks was made in the commons to the 150.000 volunteers throughout England without whom would see the English NHS collapsing in this difficult time

      Isn’t it funny how Corbyn makes no mention of this clear open goal in England in regard to workers rights but here in Scotland the Labour party are actively encouraging work to rule and strike action by as many Union workers as they can hence signals being found faulty almost every day on our train network causing delays and staff refusing to work normal overtime and or are sick at convenient times

      In the publication RAIL the Scottish government are praised for their groundbreaking efforts in Scotland on improvement of rail services and the UK government are comdemned for their lack of action in England, yet the Labour party don’t incite strikes against the Tories in England

      Funny that

    374. schrodingers cat says:

      @geeo

      seems you are right, corbyns vonc in treeza is an empty gesture

      i cant see the dup supporting it either, why would they

    375. schrodingers cat says:

      dup confirm they will not support corbyns vonc

      no surprise here

      maybe corbyns calculator had a malfunction?

    376. Rock says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      17 December, 2018 at 5:54 pm

      ““The Scottish Parliament has the right to hold referendums without interference from UK state”

      Already does as I kindly explained above. Don’t you read?”

      When was the last time it held one without Westminster’s permission?

    377. cynicalHighlander says:

      Blair Paterson Fuck off you bloody racist

    378. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      17 December, 2018 at 8:39 pm

      “The MPs from Scotland sit in the United Kingdom Parliament but they represent the sovereign people of Scotland”

      And they are outnumbered by something like 10 to 1 and have never, ever managed to pass anything which puts Scotland’s interests above Westminster’s.

      The 56 SNP MPs out of 59 achieved ZERO for Scotland, although they did get some nice salaries for themselves.

    379. schrodingers cat says:

      ooer
      Joanna Cherry QC MP
      ?
      Verified account

      @joannaccherry
      5m5 minutes ago
      More Joanna Cherry QC MP Retweeted Laura Kuenssberg
      Breaking news @theSNP together with @LSRPlaid @CarolineLucas & #libdems table amendment to convert @jeremycorbyn motion into a proper motion of #NoConfidence #brexit

    380. Lochside says:

      ‘a member for their particular constituency but that member represents the Sovereign Queen of England – not those who voted for that member’…so what happened to representative democracy then?

      Mps of whichever country represent their constituents. The British Monarchy i.e. Lizzie Saxe Coburg Gotha, who gets to wear both crowns..is a ‘constitutional monarch’..i.e a limited one, who rubber stamps parliament. Which means de jure she is Head of State, but de facto the ability to make and pass legislation resides ONLY with the elected parliament i.e the MPs and Lords.

      Go back and read about why the ‘Glorious Revolution ‘ came about. It was to curb Absolute Monarchy by the Stuarts, our actual monarchs. But the weak kneed Scottish Parliament meekly accepted King Billy and his missus as our monarch…and the rest as they say is history.

    381. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      That’s funny. You’d think the SNP et al laid a trap 🙂

    382. Ian Mackay says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      17 December, 2018 at 9:17 pm

      ooer

      Joanna Cherry QC MP
      Verified account

      @joannaccherry
      5m5 minutes ago
      More Joanna Cherry QC MP Retweeted Laura Kuenssberg
      Breaking news @theSNP together with @LSRPlaid @CarolineLucas & #libdems table amendment to convert @jeremycorbyn motion into a proper motion of #NoConfidence #brexit

      Now that’s ballsy!
      And absolutely shows Jeremy Corbyn up!
      It’s what he should have done in the first place.

      The speaker hinted before that he would only accept a Vote of No Confidence from the Official Opposition (but I thought it was always a good gamble for the SNP to at least try a VONC and make the speaker make a definitive decision either way.)

      I guess if the amendment passes it will make the speaker’s decision a bit easier; and he should then allow the VONC to proceed.

    383. geeo says:

      @cat.

      Nicola told Sophie Ridge on Sunday that if Corbyn did not call for a VONC in the Tory government, then the SNP would, to put Corbyn on the spot, test his resolve if you like.

      A non labour VONC can indeed be ignored, but my god, a labour refusal to back it, would mean labour credibility is utterly destroyed.

      SNP: “Back our motion if you want an election”.

      Corbyn: “No”.

      2021 it is then for labour.

      Then there is the position such an SNP led motion puts the DUP in.

      That becomes, back the SNP Motion or accept Treeza’s deal. DUP could never recover credibility if they save Treeza.

      SNP playing a blinder.

    384. yesindyref2 says:

      LOLers 🙂

    385. schrodingers cat says:

      i’m not sure it is a trap per se, i didnt think the dup would vote for it, why would they? treezas deal will come before the hoc on the 14th and all indications point to it being destroyed. this is exactly what the dup want.

      voting down treeza, risks a candidate defending treezas deal getting elected by tory mps, and perhaps even a ge defending treezas deal. the numbers just arent there.

      but i agree, it doe show up corbyn to be weak and ineffectual, to that end, i think the snp have out smarted him. however, it is just political posturing.

      the future looks like a very complex flow diagram at the moment, so i wouldnt bet against the dup or some tories rebelling in the next 4 weeks, leading to a vonc winning and a ge to follow.

      just not tomorrow

      i still maintain that a new no deal pm and a ge is the most likely outcome

      i would also like to thank rees mogg for pointing out to the general public, the hypocrisy in demanding euref2 but rejecting indyref2.

      wee wullie will have been spitting feathers

    386. Colin Alexander says:

      @yesindyref2

      said: “The effect is that Courts can not make laws, neither can they MODIFY them”.

      That is completely wrong, Mr Know-it-all-expert-on- everything. Take the shame!!!

      Scots Law is a mixed legal system.

      Our courts can and do make law. They can also change existing laws. It is called common law.

      Law made by parliament is statutory law.

    387. schrodingers cat says:

      That is completely wrong, Mr Know-it-all-expert-on- everything. Take the shame!!!————–

      oh do fukc off, there’s a good chap

    388. schrodingers cat says:

      nyah nyah nyah nyah, colin, you sound like a fuckin kate bush record, btw, the kids are now in their beds, you should be too

    389. schrodingers cat says:

      geeo

      agree with much of that, but since all of the clever folk in scotland are now in the snp, is it a surprise that our mps are dr’s, surgeons, qc’s, etc. while the most impressive are women, the men mps are no slouches either. labour/tories are nothing more than hotbeds of nepotism and jobs for the boys. interesting fact, shite doesnt float, it generally sinks, thats why flushing toilets work. It is cream that rises to the top, as such, it is no surprise that the snp mps can outwit lab/tories

    390. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@8.39pm

      Mr Peffers thanks for an excellent post. I have no disagreement with its contents. It does of course not contradict what I said in my most recent post but does give a far more comprehensive description of the situation.

      Any thoughts on what I said about who should be policing changes to the status of UK MPs i.e. The introduction of EVEL and more broadly changes that amend the treaty of union. Should it be the Queen?

    391. Sarah says:

      Further to my musings as to whether Scot Gov can rule that only Scottish parties may have candidates in Scottish elections, it occurred to me today that the English parties do not stand in N Ireland at general elections even. They could but they don’t.

      So what makes them think it is OK to stand in Scotland for Holyrood and Council elections??

    392. yesindyref2 says:

      Courts don’t make law. Nor do they modify them. From the UKSC ruling, not one single word of the Scotland Act has changed. What you refer to is decisions made by courts interpreting the law, it’s called “precedent”. But that precedent doesn’t make law, nor change one word of any existing law. Only the legislature can do that.

      Really Colin, you should get some educashun before spitting, lest it blow back in your face. The lee side is always hard found by new hands.

    393. boris says:

      Nov 2014: No Country in History has ever rejected independence – Until Scotland in 2014

      The biggest study yet of how Scotland made its historic decision on 18 September 2014 found that the votes of people born outside Scotland were crucial to the result.

      Whilst 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes, a massive 72.1 per cent of voters from England, Wales or Northern Ireland backed the Union.

      There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken and if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study, more than 300,000 of them will have voted No.

      That’s a significant number in a contest that ended with 2,001,926 votes for No and 1,617,989 for Yes. Voters born outside the UK also rejected independence, with 57.1 per cent voting No.

      Political scientist Professor Ailsa Henderson, who wrote the study said it showed the influence of “Britishness” among voters born elsewhere in the UK in deciding the result.

      She said: “Scottish-born people were more likely to vote Yes and those born outside Scotland were more likely to vote No. But the least sympathetic to Yes were the people born in the UK, but outside Scotland.

      We think they are more likely to feel British. They are more likely to feel a continued tie to the UK as a whole – because that’s where they are from.”

      https://caltonjock.com/2018/12/17/in-2014-scotland-committed-national-suicide-when-encumbered-by-a-large-group-of-no-voting-english-residents-it-failed-to-take-responsibility-for-its-own-governance-entrusting-its-future-to-a-sneeri/

    394. Sinky says:

      BBC 10 oclock TV news fails to mention that SNP and others have amended Labour’s timid no confidence vote in T May to a no confidence in Tory government

    395. mike cassidy says:

      The Government is not obliged to give parliamentary time for Corbyn’s VONC in May.

      Check Wings twitter feed.

      Labour are now saying if May does not give time for a VONC in her

      Corbyn will move for a VONC in the government.

      Its a Monty Python sketch, is it not?

    396. yesindyref2 says:

      @Boris
      There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken and if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study, more than 300,000 of them will have voted No.

      Boris, that 420,000 is Britons of all ages. 17% of people were aged under 16, so coldn’t vote, so that leaves 348,600 of voting age.

      So according to your figures, 251,340 voted NO, whereas 97,260 voted YES – and that’s of 100% of them turned out to vote. Even if they did, that would account for 150,080 majority for NO. The actual majority was 400,000.

      At the actual turnout that nett NO vote would be 127,000 – less than a third of the actual NO majority.

    397. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      boris at 10.14

      We know that. They are mostly retired people. About 70% of our own retired people voted NO as well.
      The latest polls were showing 30% of immigrants from down south voting YES. Our job is to offer those not with us yet a hand of friendship and persuade them to vote YES. It is sometimes easier than persuading some of our own.
      I find young working English people resident now in Scotland very open to Scottish independence.
      We have many English members in our SNP here.
      The EU nationals were told they would be thrown out if Scotland went independent as Scotland would be thrown out of the EU. That is reversed now. But the main reason we lost in 2014 was that not enough Scots voted YES.

    398. yesindyref2 says:

      Correction – 154,080 down to 129,437 – still less than one-third. Turnout 84.6%.

    399. Daisy Walker says:

      I keep coming back to this, especially amidst all the WM antics of recent Weeks.

      None of the stated aims of Brexit, from any of the Parties, blue, red, yellow, or NI (not including the SNP). None of them hold water, none of them have been consistent, none represent the interests of their constituents, all have moved position in opposite to common sense, economic sense and decency.

      Nothing about Brexit makes sense, or works… until looked at through the lens of:

      The 1% establishment in the UK (which has always included Labour) cannot afford to have their mountain of wealth (accumulated over 100’s of years, the ill gotten gains from the Spice Trade, the Slave Trade, the Opium Wars, and the asset stripping of entire continents), firstly identified and then taxed in the upcoming Tax Haven legislation from EU.

      That traduces everything. These are people/families who have been running the country for 100’s of years, the banks, the industries, the power behind power. These are the people who call it if/when we go to war. A threat to their interests, is – in their hearts and minds – a threat to the nation. And all the common folk are the cannon fodder to serve.

      It is a mountain of wealth.

      By comparison the wealth taken from Scotland’s oil and gas fields, while frightfully useful, and the upcoming stream for the next 40 years, thoroughly needed to fund Brexit. It is but a building full.

      To pay the faithful servants in the know, there is a spare cash box – that is your sell off of NHS, Water, Fire and Rescue, Police, Social Services, the Whisky, etc.

      There was only one aim and one negotiating lever – stop the new EU laws on tax havens, or we will have Brexit No Deal and damage your economies, we don’t care about ours.

      No doubt this negotiating tactic is still ongoing. But as time goes by, and so do the banks, and the industries, over to mainland Europe, the EU positions gets stronger and stronger, as the jobs and investment re-locate there. A much needed sop for the economic damage about to come. The EU can take the hit. And the real kicker is, if in a few years their own version of the 1% can influence them re tax havens, they can alter them at their leisure, once Britain is gone.

      Jeremy Corbyn is doing exactly what the establishment expects and instructs of him, and if he deviates from it, he will be replaced.

      The DUP are doing exactly what is expected and instructed of them.

      Terrible May’s deal, managed the miraculous, it actually managed to allow some form of trading between UK and EU outwith the jurisdiction of the ECJ (and therefore the tax laws). Its completely bonkers in every other way, but she managed to come up with something ‘slightly’ more positive sounding than no deal, for her MP’s to vote for.

      Heseltine, Major, Blair, Peoples Vote – all far too little, too late, looking for the No Deal, and sing the song now, and setting it up so that their respective parties can be reformed in the wreckage.

      The only spanner in the works has been the ECJ appeal – allowing for A50 to be cancelled. Now the MP’s (the ones who need the wages) at WM have no excuse not to vote for it, which they could have done before, when it wasn’t possible to put it on the ballot.

      There cannot be a Meaningful Vote with this on the ballot. It is not going to happen.

      And Scotland is running out of time.

      In a no deal Brexit, on 29/3/19 Holyrood will be closed. There will be no flights, no food, the pound will crash, the army will be deployed to keep the peace, a state of emergency will be imposed. We will have no means to fight legal battles about Treaties and no parliament to set up any form of Referendum.

      Whatever the SNP are planning on doing, right or wrong, win or lose, we have to do it now.

      Kind regards to all.

    400. Jock McDonnell says:

      One more time, always worth a read: http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspx

    401. Tom Platt says:

      Ian Foulds refers to an English Independence Party on Twitter. There is another one too:- https://twitter.com/english_social! It seems less lurid and more, well, English 🙂

    402. @Cubby,

      bit confused with your tête-à-tête with Peffers,

      you said,

      `Sorry Scot but England can no more do a UDI than can Scotland.`

      is this still your proposition.

    403. Phil says:

      Jock McDonnell says:
      “One more time, always worth a read: http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspx
      17 December, 2018 at 10:49 pm

      Thank you Jock.

    404. boris says:

      yesindref2 10.27and Dave McEwan Hill 10.32

      You both choose to ignore the facts.

      Scotland would now be an independent country had the English and other external votes been vetoed. The report quotes:

      “Whilst 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes, a massive 72.1 per cent of voters from England, Wales or Northern Ireland backed the Union.”

      Whilst 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes, a massive 72.1 per cent of voters from England, Wales or Northern Ireland backed the Union.

    405. TheItalianJob says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill 10.32pm

      Spot on. It was the majority of Scots who didn’t vote Yes that lost us the Indyref in 2014.

      Until a few weeks before the vote my family were 60% No 40% Yes.

      Although that changed in the week of the vote to 50/50 the final vote meant that not enough Scots voted Yes and that was what was crucial in the final outcome of the Ref.

      With you on this one and who we need to concentrate on persuading to vote Yes next time.

    406. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Daisy Walker –

      Cheers indeed for a great comment.

      I wonder how much of what you allude to is the stock-in-trade of characters mentioned in the article below, such as The Remembrancer (currently a dude called Paul Double), who has been mentioned on WOS many times previously.

      https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2012-07-09/streets-paved-with-gold-the-council-that-works-for-banks

    407. Quebec second referendum (Indy2) 1995,

      they lost the chance for Independence and freedom by less than 55,000 votes,

      Votes
      Yes 2,308,360 49.42%
      No 2,362,648 50.58%
      Total votes 4,757,509
      Registered voters/turnout 5,087,009 93.52%,

      some think they will never get another shot at it before 2050.

    408. Luigi says:

      SNP MPs playing a blinder again – running rings round Labour. We have some pretty big guns down there – totally outclassing their duff counterparts in the blue and red tory BritNat parties. Quite a few of our SNP MPs could easily lead one of the big parties doon south, had they been inclined that way. The Irish had a few clever nationalist politicians prior to their independence, and they were up against some pretty effective BritNat politicians at the time. We are up against the most hapless shower of blue and red tory duffers ever assembled. They are backed up by some sneaky civil servants and judges, but they have all been preoccupied by Brexit. The perfect constitutional storm has been brewing for quite some time. Not long now.

      Man, what a time to be alive. 🙂

    409. yesindyref2 says:

      @boris
      You’re missing the point – that the rUK vote only acounts for between 130,000 (average turnout of 84.6%) and 154,000 100% voting) of the 400,000 NO majority, presuming an average age distribution [1].

      At least you’re using the genuine 2011 census figures rather than those that make wild claims of 800,000 or even 1 million “English” votes, but to make a case, you need to address the rest of the figures as well. As in perhaps those from the rUK, those from the EU, and those from the rest of the world.

      But in any case, many of those will have been resident for years, do you want to “veto” them completely (blood and soil nationalism), or set some kind of residency requirement, whether 1 year, 2 years or 5?

      D McE-H’s point is that 70% of the retired people in Scotland voted NO – regardless of where born. Should they be “vetoed” from voting as well?

      [1] Quite possibly less were under 16 and more retired than the average population.

      [2] I personally wouldn’t trust a report from generally NO Edinburgh Uni, same as during the actual Ref, but that’s a personal opinion having read some of their reports about the economics of Independence at the time.

    410. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Tom Platt

      Don’t forget the up coming Yorkshire Party:

      http://www.yorkshireparty.org.uk/

      Soon to be an SNP partner maybe in the future..??

    411. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@11.24pm

      Re Edinburgh University. Until very recently some of its “esteemed” academics were still producing reports that stated the oil would run out in 5 years.

      Britnat propaganda is everywhere.

      One thing never changes. Britnats lie and they lie all the time about almost everything.

    412. cynicalHighlander says:

      For those wishing to exclude certain voters because of ethnicity then I suggest you move to N Korea or China as they seem to be what you desire for Scotland. A one party state with only one choice on the ballot paper.

    413. Luigi says:

      Sigh, I really can’t be bothered with this ethnic Scottish YES vote shite concern trolling.

      Anyone that lives in Scotland, pays taxes and loves and contributes in some way to our country is Scottish as far as I am concerned. And even if they don’t care to call themselves Scottish, they certainly have a right to vote in any Scottish election or referendum. Our concern is with the large number of Scots-born who voted NO last time. Address their concerns, and we win. Simples. 🙂

    414. mike cassidy says:

      The Remembrancer.

      From 2016.

      http://archive.is/X3tQs

      What they are ‘protecting’.

      From 2017

      http://archive.is/tAwjq

      Insight into their lobbying.

      (a short pdf)

      From December 2018

      democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/…/3.%20Parliamentary%20Team%20Update%20PR

    415. Ken500 says:

      47% voted YES 53% voted NO ? The number of voters from elsewhere in the U.K. 2/3%? voted No. Even if they all had voted YES. It would not have been enough. The EU migrants voted No to stay in the EU.

      No one knows how people voted. Just not enough voted YES because of the blatant deceit and lies. Electoral gerrymandering, illegal funding etc. More people are now supporting YES. It just needs a few more to get over the line.

      The Tory/unionist mess is a total shambles. Brexit will tank the UK/world economy. The Tories are beyond belief. Labour are useless. People are suffering and they are carrying on like complete incompetents.

    416. mike cassidy says:

      Scrap that pdf link.

      Just google Paul Double + brexit.

      It should be one of the links listed.

      Among other things it reveals they are not shy about cultivating links with SNP mps.

    417. yesindyref2 says:

      Aye, plus trying to get the “English”, Welsh, NI, Europeans, and all other nationalities to vote YES to live in a country that’s independent from the shenanigans and far right xenophobic extremes of Westminster.

      And some people might like to wonder if their analysis of dodgy reports from a basically Unionist pedigree who would be delighted to cause splits and racism of any sort to destroy Independence, is really the best way to convince them that Scotland welcomes them, values them, and totally includes them – as the normal people in Scotland do.

      Can anyone imagine Scotland without the Italians, Pakistanis, Indians, Chinese, Poles, French, Dutch, Germans, and indeed the English?

      Oh, and Irish of course, like my wife who comes from a country already independent.

      But hey, I’m allowed to vote because I was accidentally born here, instead on some overseas posting, or in some “foreign” country.

      What a load of shite PC roses in your chanty dyke.

    418. Ken500 says:

      Quebec has more fiscal autonomy in a Federal system than Scotland,

      The SNP members are being felt at Westminster. May can’t bribe Nicola to get the Brexit shambles through Westminster. May is getting telt.

    419. Ken500 says:

      200,000 votes were needed to vote the other way for YES.

    420. mr thms says:

      The Scottish referendum was advisory. For all we know the actions taken by the Scottish government, the UK government and the EU countries since then, were based on the premise that had Scotland been an independent country when its referendum was held, some voters would become ineligible. If they have indeed take this scenario into consideration, then Scotland voted yes,and everything that follows would be a consequence threof. The English votes for English laws announcement on the day of the result of the Scottish referendum, the Smith Commission leading to the Scotland Act 2016, the EU referendum with its ‘unexpected’ result, Brexit….and still to be announced

      https://www.yourvotematters.co.uk/can-i-vote/who-can-register-to-vote

      “Citizens of the European Union (who are not Commonwealth citizens or Citizens of the Republic of Ireland) can vote in European and local elections in the UK, elections to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies (if they live in those areas) and some referendums (based on the rules for the particular referendum). They are not able to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections.”

    421. ronnie anderson says:

      Cubby the lies they hivnae telt yit ur the lies that hiv still to be wrote

    422. cynicalHighlander says:

      Luigi says:
      17 December, 2018 at 11:34 pm

      Sigh, I really can’t be bothered with this ethnic Scottish YES vote shite concern trolling.

      Nor can a lot of other people but unless people call out these low life racist bigots for what they are then they win and everybody else loses.

    423. Cubby says:

      Scot Finlayson@11.04pm

      Scot, I will always change my opinion if I am proved wrong. No problem in doing so. Daft not to.

      I say it is still my position that if either of the signatories to the treaty of union – kingdom of England and kingdom of Scotland terminate the treaty it is not UDI. They are not sub states or regions of a protective state but equal partners in an international treaty. Robert Peffers rightly made the point that my description of them as being countries was woolly and who can in Scotland and England terminate the treaty was not very precise either. But my basic point is still there in my opinion.

      Wales and N. Ireland being countries that are part of the Kingdom of England would be UDI if their assemblies for example declared independence.

      Saying Scotland (Kingdom) would also be UDI implies Scotland ( wrongly) has the same status as Wales/N.Ireland (countries) in the UK – namely a subservient country to the Kingdom of England. This is Britnat propaganda.

      Robert Peffers makes the valid point that ownership of sovereignty can affect whether or not a Declaration of Independence is UDI. Very true – if the bowling club of St Andrews made a Declaration of Independence for Scotland the treaty would not be terminated. This would be UDI. Similarly if all English MPs did likewise for England this would not mean the treaty would be terminated. This also would be UDI.

      In summary what I was trying to say initially without making it too long winded and complicated is that the owner of the Kingdom of England’s sovereignty can terminate the treaty and that is not UDI.

      Similarly the owner of the Kingdom of Scotland’s sovereignty can terminate the treaty of Union and that is not UDI.

    424. manandboy says:

      http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspxime

      David M Walker was Regius Professor of Law in the University of Glasgow from 1958-1990. This piece on the Treaty of Union, concludes thus:-

      “Time for thought
      The fundamental cause of the continued misunderstandings since 1707 has been the continuing failure of the Westminster Parliament, and its advisers and draftsmen, to appreciate that the Union was made by a treaty within international law and merely ratified by the parliaments of the two uniting states under their domestic laws, so as to put themselves out of existence and create a new sovereign state in lieu. The Westminster Parliament could possibly repeal parts of the two ratifying Acts, but that would leave the Treaty standing because it is part of international law affecting Britain and the whole world, and not merely part of domestic law.

      It is clear that any political development which requires reconsideration of the Treaty and relative Acts of 1706-07 will require careful and anxious thought to avoid repeating or compounding mistakes of the past. It is not at all a simple matter.”

      More than a few in the Independence movement are in a hurry for Independence, and transfer their hurry by projection onto Nicola. While this impatience is perfectly understandable, by itself it will not hasten Independence, anymore than being impatient over a train running late, will make it go faster.

      It is perhaps worth bearing in mind that Westminster is somewhat distracted with Brexit, and probably will be for quite sometime. To stop everything in order to engage in an Independence Referendum, is simply not going to happen. No loss to the Scots.

      In addition, were Westminster to be making rapid progress in their affairs towards a satisfactory and advantageous conclusion, then Scotland’s independence ambitions might become somewhat anxious. But nothing could be further from the truth. Not only that, but this Tory Government in Westminster is arguably proceeding in a manner likely to lead to civil strife, if not outright civil war between the Brexiters and the Remainers.
      Scotland will do well to continue to watch and wait and let the dynamics of chaotic self-destruction play out to its own conclusion south of the border.
      Only a sleepwalking idiot would wander into England’s simmering national punch-up.

      Never in Scotland’s difficult history in the Union, has patience been so vital and yet so tortuous.

    425. Daisy

      You argue your case all …. but when all is said and done, Nicola will call the Indy ref at the right time. She has all the facts and doesn’t seem to have gone wrong thus far.

      I’ll bide my time with her.

    426. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      boris at 11.06

      Can you not read. I said “We know that”.

    427. Cubby says:

      An observation – Scotland would be independent now if only yes voters were allowed to vote in 2014. As much use as some of the other observations.

      An observation – Scotland would be an independent country if it was not part of the UK. As much use as some of the other observations.

    428. Dr Jim says:

      SNP the only multicultural party it seems:

      Once again for the hard of understanding. the voting franchise is set by the governing party which is the SNP and their policy on voting is simple and everyone knows it

      This policy is not going to change unless party members propose and vote on it and that’s never going to happen so if you want to change the policy on voting you should vote for or join a party that you feel best serves your needs such as the Conservative and racist party I hear they’re very keen on excluding people from voting or even being in the country at all, so this definitely sounds like it might be the party for you

      Which leads to the next question in that by contributing to an Independence website you must already know the policy so why keep repeating the same thing about changing that which will not be changed

      Vote Conservative and racist or their sister party Antisemitic Labour they really don’t like anybody who’s not them, or the Liberal Democrats, they’ll agree to anything if it gets them a vote

    429. Jim McIntosh says:

      What do posters think of gordon ross indycar hypothetical suggestion about indie ref on 28th March,check out his blog?

    430. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      It really shouldn’t have to be said again and again but apparently it does so well said. You see a movement and that’s any political movement will have it’s divisions. It doesn’t really matter wgat those divisions are but you can be absolutely certain that your opponents or your enemy, whatever you care to call them will try to exploit those divisions.

      I don’t mind that at all, I see it coming and fully expect it, what I’m unhappy about is those that will fall for it because you know what? It is not about what divides us it’s what unites us that’s important and nothing else.

      90% at least of the population no nothing of these things only the likes of us anoraks that keep coming back to read Wings everyday as well as all the most important political stories of the day. It is us who are the target and that they seek to divide.

      They laugh when any sign of a split appear and do their very best to force a crowbar in there. Remember Toodle oh the noo and the “SNP Civil War”? I remember, I fought in it LOL.

      No matter what your own personal opinion is on any individula topic it matters little measured against the ultimate goal of Independence. We have to put all the little differences aside and work together to achieve our goal. Don’t let the bastards grind you down or wind you up.

      And especially if you are an Independence supporter, do not allow your thoughts to be manipulated by theirs, some things might best be kept to yourself for the greater good.

      I like to think at least, that we that support Independence are all in this together and I want to keep it that way.

    431. ben madigan says:

      @Jim McIntosh who asked
      “What do posters think of gordon ross indycar hypothetical suggestion about indie ref on 28th March”

      Some other poster proposed 29th march for Indyref2 day.
      So it seems we are narrowing down to a tight time frame –

      Despite the rigours of a winter campaign, communications are easier today in the depths of winter with internet and modern phones etc

      I like the 28th. It was my late father’s birthday and he would have been tickled pink that independence was achieved on his big day!
      It’s 24 hours before brexit so we should ensure our place in the EU
      It’s Springtime so not too cold and wet to venture out to the polling station
      It’s a Thursday (nothing else to do. It’s not a Friday or Saturday night)
      It’s not close to Easter when people might be off for the weekend, so voters will flock to the polls
      It’s Independence 24 hours earlier than the vote on the 29th

      What’s not to like with the 28th March 2019 as Scotland’s independence Day?

    432. Kenno says:

      Know whit a mean man???

    433. geeo says:

      Re: 28th or 29th march for indyref.

      Unless we can get the counting done by 11pm, on the 29th, i would suggest otherwise as we will technically be out the EU before the result is known.

      This may or may not make a difference, but personally i would not chance the 29th.

      28th on the other hand….can you just imagine WM reaction….worth it just for that alone…!!!

      I seem to recall a certain blog owner quoted early 2019 as indyref prime timing, and that was some time ago he said it.

      “He fecking knows things, that other people dont feckin know ..” to quote a comic who rather divides opinion these days. Apt for this however, so there ye go…har.

    434. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, notice the incredible similarity to an article by David Clegg in the Daily Record: http://archive.is/uIxHt

      There’s also this, I had to look it up to remember. Ashcroft immediately after the poll:

      Male 47% YES, 53% NO
      Female 44% YES, 56% NO

      Some difference, but not too much. Which is about where the pre-Ref polls were – it started back in 2012 with a much larger gap. Whereas Edinburgh had this:

      Male 53.2% YES, 46.8% NO (in your dreams)
      Female 43.4% YES, 56.6% NO (about right)

      http://centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Scottish%20Referendum%20Study%2027%20March%202015.pdf

      Check out Demographics 1.

      It doesn’t even make mathematical sense, to get those percentages for males and females and still get YES 44.7%, NO 55.3%, you’d have to have over 6 times as many females voting in Indy Ref 1 as males.

      That report is well screwed. That’s really embarrasing, some top names in the centre for constitutional change.

      Maybe I mis-read the thang, but I don’t think so.

    435. geeo says:

      @thepnr

      I was injured in the SNP ‘civil war’

      Nearly broke several ribs laughing for days on end, reading about it.

      I recovered fairly quick, but still get occassion flashbacks. and burst out laughing in shops or walking the dog.

      I was there man…!

    436. Liz g says:

      geeo @ 1.46
      Fur me it’s Greggs pineapple cakes that trigger ma flashbacks tae the civil war.

    437. yesindyref2 says:

      Yeah, just to anticpate the Edinburgh Uni as reported by Daily Record defence “Oh, we got the figures the wrong way around, it’s a typo”, there would have had to be 50% more women voting than men in the Ref to get the actual result and since they claim an extra large number of people polled (over 8,500) yes, the decimal figures do count.

      Duff polling, duff maths, duff reportage, you choose. Thing is if Edinburgh Uni got something as simple as that so far far far wrong in 2015, what about the rest of their report? Which sadly some Indy supporters are quoting as the gospel according to Edi Uni (onist)?

      Maybe someone should point this out to Rev, seems like a good and timely article to write, with all this crap going on about the voting franchise which is already being looked at from a year old full consultation and there won’t be another for at least 2 years.

    438. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m like a rat with a bone, but you doubt yourself, so I had to do it with figures. Rounding for ease of maths, 3,600,000 voted, 2,000,000 voted NO, 1,600,000 voted YES.

      Taking the Edinburgh University survey of 8,500 people and doing the percentages on the full population of voters using those round figures for easy maths.

      1,800,000 men @ 53.2% YES = 957,600 YES
      1,800,000 women @ 43.4% YES = 781,200 YES
      Total YES 1,738,800. WRONG.

      400,000 men @ 53.2% = 212,800 YES
      3,200,000 women @ 43.4% = 1,388,800
      Total YES 1,601,600. Near enough to 1,600,000 for government work.

      So yeah, totally wrong report figures which nobody has challenged for nearly 4 years and still show the same wrong results.

      Can the rest of the report be trusted? I – don’t – think – so.

    439. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jim McIntosh @ 00:52,

      I like the notion, but not too surprising, since I’m on the record on here for proposing the very same thing some time ago, or possibly the previous Thursday instead. By then everyone should be very well focussed on the realities.

      And no reason why not, because May is here for the duration – it has become a point of principle for her to stick it out now – and Corbyn hasn’t the numbers, the ability or the balls to do anything about it. May is going for broke for the sake of her party and her own reputation, so it will be no deal or her deal, with the pound dropping to encourage a latter-day HoC capitulation in her favour, not least by collaborationist Labour shoulder-shruggers.

      It’s time for the wishful thinking to end. We have to be ready and waiting to exercise the mandate while we still have the ability to make it meaningful.

    440. Joemcg says:

      I’m curious if posters on here actually believe England would let scots incomers vote on their independence referendum down south as per this hypothetical story and do you believe in the tooth fairy?

    441. Dr Jim says:

      Women will win the Independence vote for Scotland

      As soon as women learn toilet rolls will be one of the shortages the panic will set in

      I’m being flippant but so many people won’t have realised about the tiniest things they take for granted every day will not be there if we fall off Englands Brexit cliff

      Jeremy Corbyn may think he’s playing a crafty game with his pretendy motion against the PM but even the slow to catch on will see through this as Corbyn really just siding with the Tories in the hope of collecting the job of PM by default and sod the four countries of the UK as long as he gets his General election which he’ll more than likely lose anyway, even now he’s still around five points behind the Tories so if he does get his election who’s he going to turn to for support, if he makes public it might be the DUP he’ll definitely lose big because I guess that England’s had quite enough of those people

      But who has been the voice of reason throughout this whole debacle, who is it we see on the English twitter as the person the English now see as the only serious politician to fix things, well the one time most dangerous woman in Britain, oor FM and even though the price for her support will be what Scotland wants England will be happy to pay the bill because the dumb Westminster politicians have pumped it into Englands heads so much that Scotland is subsidised by them they believe it now so will be happy to see us go, of course the Westminster politicians won’t because they know the truth but they can’t admit to England they’ve been lying to them about that for years as well

      However it turns out it looks like a win for Scotland and either a bad loss for England or a disaster, a disaster might suit Scotland in some ways, a guarantee of Independence you might say, but a disaster is still a disaster and that in the long run doesn’t suit anybody because It’ll cause us problems too

      By the end of January we should see it pretty much done and dusted and the destination made clear and it must be good because Iv’e had the email telling me the campaign starts in January so somebody’s been told something in the boss’s office
      Anyway it’s crutches down and off to bed, and me wae a bad leg tae

    442. Stravaiger says:

      @geeo 1:46am

      Just about spat my crunchy nut all over the kitchen! ?

    443. Tam says:

      Excellent post Dr Jim

    444. Luigi says:

      Joemcg says:
      18 December, 2018 at 3:50 am
      I’m curious if posters on here actually believe England would let scots incomers vote on their independence referendum down south as per this hypothetical story and do you believe in the tooth fairy?

      What does that have to do with anything?

      Nice try, but save the old ‘concerns’. You will have to do much better than that. 🙂

    445. Kenno says:

      The disintegration of merry old Engurland continues.

    446. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Dr Jim you made me oink. Bastardo.

    447. Kenno says:

      The English Broadcasting Corporation completely ignoring the prospect of Scotland becoming an Independent Nation caused by Brexit.

      Not a peep.

      The orders given to their branch office in Scotland is to keep the natives up to date with the latest murders, fitba and weather.

    448. Shinty says:

      For anyone who missed this from Rev’s twitter

      https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1074792543676760071

    449. Breeks says:


      Jim McIntosh says:
      18 December, 2018 at 12:52 am
      What do posters think of gordon ross indycar hypothetical suggestion about indie ref on 28th March,check out his blog?

      It’s suicidal.

      It suspends all resistance to Brexit until it’s too late, and makes the dangerous presumption that a Scottish Referendum held under the prevailing UK Establishment corruption, where Scotland is continually deluged with monopolised BritNat propaganda which leaves a huge number of the electorate hopelessly indoctrinated into the BritNat mindset.

      Do you really trust a referendum to deliver Scotland’s emancipation from this colonial subjugation? Do you really believe the UK Regime will respect the votes integrity? For gods sake, they just rewrote the law retrospectively to pull the rug from under Devolved Government.

      Devolution is the the mother of all distractions.

      Many months ago I asked a question whether Holyrood was empowered by Scottish Sovereignty which I described as red Sovereignty because it came from the blood of the people, or English/UK Sovereignty which I described as white Sovereignty since it was divine from God. So what was Holyrood? Red Sovereignty? White Sovereignty? Pink Sovereignty or Raspberry Ripple Sovereignty?

      Given Holyrood’s capitulation and failure to defend Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty over the Remain vote Scotland returned in 2016, given the fealty before a UK Supreme Court and Holyrood’s acquiescence to accept the blatant disgrace of Sewell and the rewriting of the Law to out manoeuvre Scotland, there can be no question that Holyrood is fuelled by pure white Sovereignty charitably lent to us from Queen Liz and Westminster. I hate to shatter your illusions, but events speak for themselves.

      The only act of red Sovereignty we have seen, since before 2014 in fact, (that is red Scottish Sovereignty from the blood of the Scottish people), has been the bold challenge under Scots Law taken to the ECJ as to whether Article 50 could be withdrawn. It was successful. Red Sovereignty proved unstoppable by white Sovereignty.

      Every day we squander playing games under white Sovereignty where Westminster simply rewrites the rules when it loses is another day lost and another step closer to Brexit. We MUST begin to see our Constitutional situation with much more incisive perception, because we need to step outside this rigged game of white Sovereignty, and displace every molecule of white Westminster sovereignty with Scottish red Sovereignty.

      Holyrood MUST start drawing its power from the sovereign will of the Scottish people, or risk being sidestepped, and purged from Scotland altogether if it insists on remaining a mere delivery mechanism for Westminster subjugation.

      There cannot be pink Sovereignty. Devolution creates the illusion of raspberry ripple Sovereignty, but when push comes to shove, and Brexit is push coming to shove us off a cliff, there is only white Sovereignty and red Sovereignty in a battle for ultimate supremacy.

      Holyrood must choose whether it is our instrument, or theirs. I don’t mean a mere vote on it, I mean on an existential plain. Is it a Scottish Legislature impervious to the UK’s Supreme Court, or a UK Legislature which lies prostrate before the will of it.

      If Holyrood doesn’t start fighting for Scotland’s red Sovereignty, then perhaps it should just get the hell out of the way and prepare to be flushed away like all the BritNat propagandists and shills, and other tools of our subjugation.

      We Scots must take the fight back to the ECJ, under Scots Law, and seek to revoke Article 50 because it was never approved by the sovereign will of Scotland. Scotland stays in Europe. Embed ourselves in Europe, and the EU will defend our Sovereign Backstop with the same tenacity it has defended the Irish Backstop, and the UK will tear itself in two through the rash and intemperate act of England’s secession from Europe, which in turn renders the United Kingdom untenable and defunct.

      Get wise, get on board Holyrood, or get out of the way. It isn’t just Brexit that is running out of time.

    450. Sunshine says:

      I would like to see more action on Indy ref 2 and less on Brexit. I have been saying for months that we should have started a campaign and named a date of late February to mid March for the actual vote.
      People need hope, they need something to campaign on and believe in. I’m afraid to say it’s just not happening and SNP voters are losing faith. Naming a referendum date before the end of March doesn’t stop anything else that’s on going. Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit, why are we campaigning for a lesser version of it instead of the full fat version of membership that we have and voted for by 62%?
      Why wait until we have more answers and more clarifications. It doesn’t concern us.
      Waiting too long just gives Westminster time. We need to strike now while the irons hot and our opponents are otherwise engaged.
      For God sake name the referendum date now before we all go mad with frustration about the inaction on independence.
      If we lost a pre Brexit vote then our only hope is that Brexit is such a disaster as predicted, then any no voters in the pre Brexit vote will be demanding another, independence referendum, pronto.to vote for yes!
      It’s a win. Though my gut feeling is we will all come together Dunkirk style against the nasty Europeans, as styled by the media of course.
      I’m also taken by Breeks idea of the Scottish Parliament revoking article 50 as it relates to Scotland.Why aren’t we doing that or stating that it is our intention to do so?
      As a little aside, what ever happened to the promised disruption of parliament that we would see more off. All I see are SNP MPs stopping, turning and nodding to the speaker. Disruption at its best!!

    451. Ken500 says:

      The US has D’Hond’t. The loser won,

      Imagine if the 10% from Scotland were not allowed to vote in the rest of the UK. Even though their votes hardly count. The outrage? Rev Stu not getting to vote. Even though there is no one worth voting for.

      At least Scotland has the SNP mitigating the Westminster unionist policies and standing up for Scotland. Nicola can’t be bribed by May. Another IbdyRef soon. Once the mess has cleared a bit. Another GE. The SNP hold the balance of power at Westminster? An IndyRef if people vote for it.

    452. Capella says:

      Also from Stu’s twitter – absolutely outrageous:

      Glasgow Labour MP Paul Sweeney arguing for and voting for the Westminster power grab in the Fisheries Bill Committee Thursday 13 December 2018.

      https://twitter.com/Innealadair/status/1074766607979868169

    453. wull2 says:

      Every tine TM gets up to tell us how she is getting on with Brexit, all the SNP should walk out, she does not listen anyway.

    454. wull2 says:

      Every tine TM gets up to tell us how she is getting on with Brexit, all the SNP should walk out, she does not listen anyway.

      And it will be covered on TVs all round the world.

    455. Luigi says:

      wull2 says:

      18 December, 2018 at 8:56 am

      Every tine TM gets up to tell us how she is getting on with Brexit, all the SNP should walk out, she does not listen anyway.

      Not every time, Wull2. They do indeed need to be disruptive on occasion but these moments need to be chosen carefully for maximum effect. Making it routine would just start to look silly, but when the normally well-behaved SNP group do take a stand, people notice and pay more attention.

      Same with oor Nicola. She is normally so nice, well-mannered and reasonable, when she does take a stand, the people will notice. And she will be, very shortly, methinks. 🙂

    456. Albert Herring says:

      Solution to the franchise problem.

      1. As suggested by some on this forum: Declare that Westminster has broken the Treaty of Union and that it no longer stands, subject to a confirmatory referendum.

      2. Invite applications for Scottish Citizenship using eligibility rules generally accepted internationally, or just copy the UK rules.

      3. Hold the referendum. All Scottish citizens eligible to vote.

      Sorted.

    457. schrodingers cat says:

      71% of over 65’s voted no and leave

      we wait till 29th march

      the drugs run out

      a large number of these pensioners die

      we stand outside the local chemists with, brexit means brexit and no means no banners

      then we hold indyref2

      sorted

    458. schrodingers cat says:

      it would save a lot of paperwork 🙂

    459. Shug says:

      Bbc not mentioning the snp amendment to corbyn’S motion
      Am i missing something?
      Can someone call kaye and ask why

    460. Ken500 says:

      Aberdeen City Council unionists are a complete and utter disgrace. Kept in place by a two job Tory. A LibDem who immediately became Independent to go in with them. Totally deceiving the voters. They are breaking the Law repeatedly. Electoral Law etc. Most of them should be put in jail Embezzling and wasting public money. £1.2Billion in debt. They have sold the City in the stock market. Wasted public money building empty shops, offices and under occupied hotels. £200Million wasted. They refused a gift of £80Million to regenerate and pedestrianised the City. UTG project would have cost £20Million. A tenth of the concrete jungle. (Helped by the Greens). The majority supported the UTG project, They have spent £30Milion renovating an Art Gallery, £8Million short. £5Million on a Music Hall. Another monstrosity project ruining the skyline beside the black hole. To cap it all £300Million on an Exhibition and Conference centre. The oeeent one is used once a month and had to be bailed out £26Million+ in debt. A new football stadium (£50million) which could have been used for concerts and conferences. An underused Conference Centre 10 mins away,

      There are 100 teachers short, too high class sizes. They wanted people put in prison rather than providing proper total abstinence drink/drug rehab counselling. They are not providing proper essential services. These unionists are a total disgrace, Not fit for public service. The Chief Executive on over £130K is charging bills for hotel stays £8,5K. Rather than relocate from Dundee. one hour away. They refused to put up the Council tax after 10 years but kept business rates too high. That’s the Tories. Then Labour complaining about lack of funding. Just total lies. The P&J liars printing it.

      The SNP Gov has built the AWPR after 40 years. Totally improving the transport system. Absolutely brilliant. The wind turbine in the Bay (an eyesore) but still making money. The Golf development to bring tourists in, if only it was finished. The SNP (Alex Salmond) has done more for the NE than anyone.

      The Aberdeenshire Council is sitting in a £1Billion HQ for 70 Councillors which the unionists refuse to sell and move. To provide funds to build schools and support essential services. Keep class sizes down. Or build essential affordable homes for key workers, The Greens/unionists blocked the AWPR for years. It cost twice as much to build. They did not expand the Airport and blocked Development. Tories not paying Council tax on their castles. Tories getting council contracts then overcharging, despite being warned, repeatedly. Local landowners. Now in the Scottish Parliament trying to do the same. An absolute scandal. Covered up.

      The Tory/Unionists have ruined the Oil sector, the fishing and farming sector for years. Ruined the Oil sector with too high taxes when the price had fallen. It fell 75% being taxed at 62%. Just ridiculous. It is taxed at 40% since Jan 2016. The Tories cut investment in renewables. The fishing industry has been mismanaged by Westminster unionists for years. They have been throwing back dead fish for years ruining stocks. Multimillionaires ruining their own industry and lying. The Tories took £Millions in CAP payments from Scottish farmers. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU.

      Some people in Scotland should waken up. Labour dominated COSLA is lying again. The evidence is all around.

    461. call me dave says:

      But!..The Record headline this morning says

      ‘Corbyn goes in for the kill’. 🙂

    462. manandboy says:

      Everything May does makes perfect sense – in light of what she is trying to achieve. But whatever that is, it does not include the wellbeing of the UK population – except perhaps for those who have the wealth & the power.

      My own view is a new UK-USA Union is being forcefully created.

      The British Establishment and the US Republican Party have joined forces against the European Union. Sounds crazy – but what May is doing looks crazy.

      Time to add all the ‘crazy’ things up, then we’ll get the answer.

    463. Dr Jim says:

      It could be the Tories might want a General Election because if the the polls are to be believed they could be on course to win it bigger than they did the last time, now that would be a disaster, unfettered Mayhem

    464. Luigi says:

      Shug says:

      18 December, 2018 at 9:42 am

      Bbc not mentioning the snp amendment to corbyn’S motion
      Am i missing something?

      The usual BritNat propaganda by omission, Shug.

      If somehow the BritNats manage to weasel out of the trap the SNP has set and avoid a NC vote, then this is when the SNP MPs should walk out, hold a quick conference outside the HoC stating they have had enough of this nonsense while the country is on the verge of collapse.

      With a hostile BBC intent on ignoring the BBC, sometimes you have to kick em in the nads and seize the narrative. With the world watching, the BBC would find it impossible to ignore and cover up as they usually do.

      As I said before, SNP – choose your moment to be disruptive. One of these moments may be fast approaching, IMO. 🙂

    465. Luigi says:

      Did anyone spot my deliberate typo?. 🙂

    466. manandboy says:

      It’s time to think outside the box – where Theresa May is already.

      Nothing May does is ‘inside the box’.

    467. Lochside says:

      In 2011 census, 459,000 Scottish residents were born in England; 54,000 were born in Wales and N.I. giving a total of 513,000, therefore nearly 10% of our electorate is RUK.

      Of our total population, 62% identified as Scottish only. Worryingly, 18% identified as Scottish and British. As expected, the largest cohort ,25% of people aged between 65-74 years, were in this group.

      The highest Scottish ‘identifiers only’ live in N.Lanarkshire; Inverclyde; East Ayrshire; and West Dunbartonshire. Significantly amongst the poorest areas of our country. This figure is 90%.

      The lowest ‘Only Scottish identifiers’ are , not surprisingly, in Edinburgh (49%) and Aberdeen (55%) two of the most prosperous areas. I find these statistics worrying, because unlike some on here, I believe that identity is the key to our survival as a Independent nation, not ethnicity. However, ethnicity i.e. country of birth, not race, is a determinant in the UK context, because of the imperialist brainwashing that has gone on for centuries.

      RUK immigrants have for the past thirty to forty years dominated the senior positions in our public service institutions e.g our Universities. They are the voice of Scotland in many sectors. A short listen to BBC Scotland radio or our tv networks demonstrates the overwhelming ubiquity of non Scots in senior positions. There has been a welcome increase in non UK professionals, but they are only a leavening of the anglocentric dominance of our society.

      Why is this significant? Well, as the identification element of the census demonstrates, as we become more anglicised as a society, we begin to lose our self awareness as a nation. The media and big business have colluded to increase this effect.

      There is a class element in this: predominantly wealthy RUK people selling inflated priced properties and fleeing to the better parts of Scotland: Aberdeen, Edinburgh, the highlands and islands
      ‘Perthshire, Dfs & G, and the Borders. There is also evidence that as they attain the top jobs that they recruit their own. Thus, we have the example of hardly any Scottish University heads or Edinburgh Festival Directors etc.

      We have an open border. As Brexit progresses, there will be more RUK coming here. The Rev’s poll showed up to 4 million English would consider moving here. They will not be coming here to become Scottish. Unless we vote ourselves back into national sovereignty, only then will those migrants have the choice of becoming Scottish by taking on our citizenship.

      Otherwise, we need to enforce residency qualification for voting until we can sustain the numbers to win. Quebec lost out to Anglphone emigration. Similarly, our namesake New Caledonia lost out in its Independence from France because residents with French identity outvoted the native Kanaks. Old Caledonia must protect itself from being outvoted back into existence.

    468. Luigi says:

      The indy movement is becoming restless. They need something to get behind. I understand that an indyref or GE manadate cannot be called just yet, but surely something spectacular, something outrageous can be engineered for the troops to rally behind?

      Another walkout?

      With the despicable behaviour of the BritNat parties, many people north and south of the border would cheer if the SNP disrupted business in a big way. People are sick of WM – they want to see a bit of real action – they want to see the establishment take one in the eye.

      Just sayin. 🙂

    469. Dr Jim says:

      Lots of folk arguing that if we end up remaining the case for Indyref goes down, I don’t get that myself it’ll still prove and make very obvious Scotland is always at the mercy of England’s majority of voters who have proved beyond the shadow of a doubt they couldn’t decide what to order in a chippy without getting it wrong and ending up with a pizza because it’s easier to say

      Do we really want our future to be decided by the cast of Gogglebox, has nobody seen that? it might be funny but look at why it’s funny, these are the people who decide Scotlands future Jeez!

    470. Luigi says:

      Lochside says:

      18 December, 2018 at 10:08 am

      As Brexit progresses, there will be more RUK coming here. The Rev’s poll showed up to 4 million English would consider moving here. They will not be coming here to become Scottish.

      I don’t think you can make that assumption. Judging by a substantial number of tweets I have read, many people heading north will be progressives, Brexit refugees, intent on voting YES if there is another indyref. Their words, not mine. 🙂

    471. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The answer to the Brexit mess is obvious. Enoble the entire Manchester United board and get them all into the Cabinet.

      They would not be long in sacking May.

    472. Lochside says:

      Luigi..’I don’t think you can make that assumption.’…I think I can by basing it upon the REF1 result with 3/4 of resident RUk voting ‘NO’, despite many , if not most, living here for years.

    473. Pedro says:

      Those who are as impatient as I am for independence might benefit from sitting down, taking a couple a deep breaths, and reading the post by manandboy@12:14. I particularly liked the quote:

      ‘…. impatience…by itself it will not hasten independence anymore than being impatient at a train running late will make it go faster.’

      If ever there was a need for calm heads, it is now. I saw an interview recently, French I think, where Nichola, not for the first time, was being compared to Angela Merkel. I’ll settle for that.

      By the way, I was a conscientious objector in the recent SNP civil war on the grounds that tending to my tatties was more important for the future of mankind. I hope history will not judge me too harshly…

    474. Macart says:

      @Pedro

      “By the way, I was a conscientious objector in the recent SNP civil war on the grounds that tending to my tatties was more important for the future of mankind. I hope history will not judge me too harshly…”

      Same.

    475. mike cassidy says:

      Cheer yourself up!

      For Adults Only!

      John Oliver on Brexit

      what the Americans saw

      https://t.co/2EAVZagPLJ

      what the UK saw

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHmp5EX5bE

    476. Daisy Walker says:

      Hello
      ‘Meg merrilees says:
      18 December, 2018 at 12:16 am
      Daisy

      You argue your case all …. but when all is said and done, Nicola will call the Indy ref at the right time. She has all the facts and doesn’t seem to have gone wrong thus far.

      I’ll bide my time with her.’

      For the record I think NS has and is playing a blinder. It doesn’t stop the fact that the clock is counting down. Its getting to the point where there is no ‘optimum’ moment to call it, just that if we don’t call it before 29/3/19 we’re gubbed.

      If A50 could be extended… then maybe there would be a stay of execution for Holyrood…. but, for the aforesaid reasons, I don’t see that as realistically happening. I think WM had a plan all the way along, and it is No Deal, chaos, riots, state of emergency, shut down Holyrood – ScotsIndy by peaceful means shut down for a very long time (and ScotsIndy by unpeaceful means plays right into their hands).

      Like everyone else, I don’t want to fall in behind the pipers for yet another glorious defeat. But we have a right to stand up for ourselves – the future is not writ – right just now it feels like we’re being soothed into a surrender without even a murmur of discontent.

      And I know that the Scot Gov and NS are playing a blinder, that NS is out-gaming them at their own sport, and is 3 steps ahead – as far as I can tell…. but for us political beasts that is there to see, for the general public… nothing.

      As much as Brexshit and Bad is all consuming, all pervading and never-ending… the positive case, the hope, the pride and self confidence… that part of the ground is not being covered or promoted. And the clock ticks.

      Peace and love.

    477. mike cassidy says:

      Cheer yourself up.

      For Adults Only.

      John Oliver on Brexit – what the Americans saw

      t.co/2EAVZagPLJ

      John Oliver on Brexit – what the UK saw

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHmp5EX5bE

    478. HandandShrimp says:

      I confess that I took no part in our civil war. I was walking the dog and no one told me there was one on. By the time I found out all the dead were buried and all buildings rebuilt.

      If you are not fast you are kast…apparently.

    479. Breeks says:

      Got a comment in pre moderation… I maybe used a bad word…

      But OT, that’s off topic, or on a tangent, but that video featuring Theresa May presenting a kid she promised a unicorn with a horse and an ice cream cone also makes me a little sad, because a Unicorn is these days becoming synonymous with the ridiculous.

      In heraldic terms, the Unicorn is the National emblem of Scotland, no more ridiculous or fanciful than the dragon emblem of Wales.

      The significance is that the Unicorn cannot be tamed. If the image is drawn properly, there are chains on the Unicorn, but they are broken. The Unicorn emblem symbolises the spirit of a Nation that cannot be tamed or imprisoned. Quite appropriate for a Nation blessed with the ethereal concept of inalienable popular sovereignty which cannot be overruled or tamed itself.

      I know, it’s just an emblem, and maybe the iconography feels like it belongs in a bygone era… but losing touch with Unicorn bears uncanny parallels with our losing touch with our Constitutional Sovereignty.

      Perhaps we Scots need a little more faith in Unicorns.

    480. Joemcg says:

      Luigi-nice body swerve man! “What does that have to do with anything?” You haven’t read the other hand wringers on this thread have you?

    481. Ghillie says:

      Breeks @ 11.41 am

      Thank you for that =)

      Scotland 🙂 Untameable and free 🙂

    482. T May stalling for time.

      She knows her deal will not get through.

      Using this month ‘off’ over Christmas to carry out contingency planning.

      Calling it – ‘putting in place what to do if we leave with a no deal’ means they can beaver away, preparing for a possible GE , preparing to take over Scotland after March 29th – they have that lovely big new building in Edinburgh waiting to be occupied by Tsar Fluffy and his motley bunch; they can plan any strategy they want and have a month on any opposition for planning purposes.

      I hope Corbyn ( sorry, the rest of the labour party) is planning ahead. I’ve read he is worried he wouldn’t win a GE just now and that if he doesn’t back a second EU ref at least half of the supporting 18-24 year olds will abandon Labour for the Lib Dems ( no choice in England) .

      I know the Scottish government will not be caught out.
      We have to wait, be ready and spring to action when called. Not long now.

      I listened to some of the debate yesterday. T May is behaving like a dictator. She is the one who is turning politics into a toxic shambles; she is totally shutting down debate and her standard answer yesterday was ” If you do not want to leave under ‘no deal’ then back the deal that will be offered.”

      So now, after months of ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ her strong and stable government is now offering ‘a bad deal is better than no deal’

      She totally dismisses revoking Article 50 or a second EU ref as anti- democratic. It seems now that if you believe in democracy, you cannot change your mind despite the circumstances changing.

      She is behaving like Erdowan, Orban and Bolsonera – Diktator May.

    483. Daisy,

      I think Nicola’s biggest problem is calling too early.

      If she were to call it now, T May can revoke article 50, call a second EU ref, extend the cut off point and try to improve her deal or simply ‘no BREXIT’.

      All to play for – that’s why we have to wait. She is deliberately not committing to anything other than her deal to call Nicola’s bluff and that of the EU.

      We’ll soon see whose nerve is steeliest and I don’t think it will be May. and as you say, the clock ticks!

      Peace and love ……to quote Smallaxe – and how is Smallaxe these days?

    484. Daisy Walker says:

      Thanks Meg. I don’t know how Smallaxe is doing, perhaps someone else can advise.

      Irony – I keep reading EUreferendum.com – the guy who writes it voted to leave, had a plan (similar to Norway type deal) actually understands and is qualified regarding the way the EU works, and even though he supports leave, did not shy away from producing well researched Impact Assessments about how bad leaving would be, especially under No Deal.

      He is well worth a read for all of the above reasons. However, I’ve just read his twitter feed today, and boy, how does anyone who knows the consequences of No Deal, still support leaving the EU. He’s absolutely frothing at the mouth about the potential for a PV, and Remainers in general, really, really frothing…

      O/T

      Re NS’s options. I don’t know if legally Scot Gov can revoke A50. I suspect not, since EU membership is controlled through the UK and the EU supports this link.

      The following is a suggestion. What if she offered the people of Scotland another EU Ref. She cannot offer it to England, but it would increase the pressure in Englandshire for that to happen – and give the WM parties something to occupy their time.

      Their national media would report on the argument for Remain and that would reach our voters.

      If WM then withdraws A50, it is a win, no lose situation.

      It is dealing with the biggest crisis for all UK since 1939.

      Our former No voters, will have their Remain vote traduced by WM once again, and have it rubbed in their faces, with the utmost reluctance even they would have to accept, that the only way to succeed is by Indy.

      At least if I put this out there, people can have a think about it, and not see it as letting down the Indy campaign. Just a thought.

    485. cirsium says:

      @daisy walker, 11.27am
      Like everyone else, I don’t want to fall in behind the pipers for yet another glorious defeat. But we have a right to stand up for ourselves – the future is not writ – right just now it feels like we’re being soothed into a surrender without even a murmur of discontent.

      It feels like that to me too.

      the positive case, the hope, the pride and self confidence… that part of the ground is not being covered or promoted. And the clock ticks.

      Agree

    486. Ken500 says:

      It is just unbelievable people are being chucked out of Scotland who have lived here for years, The irresponsible costs. Scotland is half empty. The Tories are tanking the Scottish economy.

    487. Luigi says:

      I think the biggest problem for IndyRef 2 will be dead voters and postal voters.

      I kid you not – the lengths a desperate BritNat establishment will go to, in order to hold on to Scotland cannot be under-estimated. They will try and rig it.

    488. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      YesPensionersABZ
      @Indyref_2018

      Reclassification of the way student debt is recorded as “national debt” means Scotland from next year will be allocated ~£2bn of debt per year for English tuition fees.

      https://twitter.com/Indyref_2018/status/1074948571605155840

    489. orri says:

      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/notes/division/5/4

      This is one of a set of provisions defining the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Section 28 provides for the Parliament to make laws known as Acts of the Scottish Parliament (ASPs). Section 29 defines the legislative competence of the Parliament. Section 30 introduces the list of reserved matters (which are set out in Schedule 5) and provides for the modification of Schedules 4 and 5 by subordinate legislation, subject to the approval of both the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament.

      So to answer the question, the idea that the HoL could actually protect legislation never mind the HoC without the express consent of Holyrood is not what’s meant to happen.

      I think there’s a quirk of Westminster that allows them to pass dodgy legislation and ignore the fact after the fact. In this instance no way should they be allowed to get away with it.

      That the Supreme Court isn’t questioning the legitimacy of the protected legislation is either wilful ignorance or pedantry.

    490. ronnie anderson says:

      Daisy Walker Smallaxe & Sybil are not in the best of health at times but they are both doing ok just now Smallaxe is conserving his energies for the big event .

      Lolliesmum is recovering from her broken leg at her Daughters in Bedford & wont be back before the new year , 5 appointments at the bedford gen , 4 cancelations , 5 th she was asked to take her own dressings ( I kid you not ) her Daughter ended up doing the dressings .



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