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Coming through the field

Posted on December 18, 2018 by

To anyone observing Scottish politics with even half a keen eye, it was obvious from very early on that former athlete Brian Whittle was one of the stupider and nastier elements of the 2016 crop of new Tory MSPs, having been thrashed by more than 12,400 votes in the election but foisted on taxpayers anyway via the list system.

(Trivia fact: Whittle is Holyrood’s most comprehensively rejected MSP. Nobody else in the 2016 election was beaten by such a big margin but still ended up in Parliament. He makes Murdo Fraser – who lost Perthshire North by 10,353 in his seventh defeat on the trot but still got a seat – look like a beacon of popularity by comparison.)

Indeed, an interview in today’s Holyrood Magazine reveals that Whittle is SUCH a dim bulb, he didn’t even realise that if you got elected as an MSP you had to actually go and do the job.

But astoundingly, that’s not even nearly the dumbest thing he says in it.

And we’re not even sure what is. This is a contender, for example:

“It was [a] seeming refusal to dodge difficult questions that led him to request an interview with Holyrood, in order to respond to a news story which seemed to call into question a remark he had made in the chamber.

The debate had been on poverty and Whittle had answered a question on whether Universal Credit was causing rising foodbank demand by pointing to his local centre, in East Ayrshire, which he claimed had seen a 30 per cent drop in use in the last year.

However, when Holyrood got in touch with the foodbank, it said its most recent figures show demand was actually up by 12 per cent, and that the 30 per cent figure quoted by Whittle dated from 2016/17, a year before the local rollout of Universal Credit.

The figures show use was declining, until Universal Credit came in, then it rose.

But, sitting in his parliamentary office, Whittle bristles at the idea the statement was misleading. “I go into the foodbank and they are brilliant,” he says. “They tell me what the trends are, what the issues are, some of the things that if you said out loud I would get smashed for.

But I am totally aware that Universal Credit has had an impact. My point is this: why has it had such a differing impact across constituencies? In 2016/17, East Ayrshire managed to reduce it [demand] by 30 per cent, and I’ve been waiting about a year to actually say that.”

But, despite Whittle’s protests, the point is that the reduction came before Universal Credit was introduced. When it came in, foodbank demand then rose.

“Uh-huh,” he says. “But I’ve been waiting about a year to say that, do you know why? Because what they’re doing in there is obviously having a positive impact.”

He adds: “Now, I will freely admit, that in the context of that particular debate, I’ve maybe tried to force that in there, but only because it needed to be said.”

We apologise for the length of that quote, but you need to see the full exchange to grasp just how thick it is. Having had his error patiently and clearly explained to him, not a single word penetrates and Whittle just blusters on repeating the exact same thing he’d been criticised for in the first place, insisting that the cretinously wrong and epically point-missing brainhonk “needed to be said”.

But he’s not finished. Then comes this:

” – What about the two-child cap, then, also known as ‘the rape clause’? The policy, based on restricting the child element of child tax credit and Universal Credit awards to two children, has come under fire from organisations ranging from the Child Poverty Action Group to Scottish Women’s Aid. In fact, apart from the Conservative Party, it’s hard to find a single group that backs it.

“Well, number one, again, this is where politics is appalling, there is no such thing as a rape clause. That’s an invention. There’s an exemption clause.”

 – It is effectively a rape clause.

“No, it’s not.”

 – It’s an exemption for someone who has been raped.

“Why don’t we call it a children in care clause? Because it’s part of the same thing. I’ll tell you what I think about that, there’s a legitimate debate to be had around the child cap that will never happen because, politically, you wouldn’t be allowed to say what you’ve got to say.

The term ‘rape clause’ is an invention to beat the Tories with. It’s the invention of another political party.””

But of course, obviously, it IS a rape clause. It’s literally a clause in the law, that deals exclusively with rape. You can tell by the way the word “rape” appears in it and how it’s all about rape (or “non-consensual intercourse” in the prissy language of government, like being murdered is a “non-consensual life-ending incident”).

But he’s still not done. For our money, the top spot on the podium goes to Whittle’s next remarks, about how withdrawing child benefit for additional children after the first two won’t cause them any harm:

” – But even if you assume that it’s acceptable to say to someone who has suddenly fallen on hard times that they shouldn’t have had more than two children ten years ago, even if you accept that’s OK, how would you explain that to the third child? What did they do to deserve that?

“I’ve got three children.”

 – But you have a good job.

“There is no way on earth you are going to devalue my third child. No way you can do that.”

 – So why don’t they deserve support?

“It’s the parents that will have the support.”

 – But removing the support from the parents will mean the child will suffer.

“The child will not.”

 – How would removing financial support not have an effect?

“There’s a whole load of other things that are there to support you when you fall into those circumstances.”

He doesn’t, however, quite manage to get round to mentioning what any of them are. The absolutely most charitable interpretation we can put on the comments is that he means foodbanks, and that a child won’t be harmed if it has to rely on foodbanks to eat. (And foodbanks don’t provide for anyone seven days a week – they’re temporary sticking plasters typically giving people a three-day parcel on a one-off basis.)

But the final clincher is when he asserts that none of this is happening anyway:

“- [The UN Special Rapporteur’s] study projected an additional 600,000 children would be living in absolute poverty [by 2022 as a result of UK government policy]. Those are households which will struggle to find enough cash for food, rent or heating.

“Do you know what? If someone comes to me with that issue then I am all over that. I would pull out whatever I need to do.”

 – It’s happening now.

I’ve never seen it. No one has ever come into any of my surgeries and said that.

We don’t know about you, readers, but if we were desperately poor and struggling to feed our children, pretty much the last person on the face of the Earth that we’d go to hoping for help, or even an atom of basic human empathy, was Brian Whittle. The interview – which we urge you to read in full – provides ample evidence of why.

But at the end of the day it’s not even the astonishing wilful ignorance detailed above that makes Whittle our new Thickest Politician In Scotland. It’s the fact that he actually actively sought out a journalist to say this stuff to.

He wasn’t trapped or caught with his guard down. He urgently wanted people to know that he thought this, and is presumably satisfied with how it went. And that, folks, is a truly Olympian level of stupid.

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    247 to “Coming through the field”

    1. John Moss says:

      Yup, stupid as ****

    2. Totally unbelievable. This list system has to be addressed.

    3. Macart says:

      Literally an empathy void.

      He’s in the right party then.

    4. Proud Cybernat says:

      Whittle the lickspittle. Other words just fail me and would surely be banned by WoS in any case.

    5. galamcennalath says:

      Tories are devoid of all common decency.

      That’s bad enough, but with it comes the total and complete lack self awareness, empathy, sympathy, …. humanity!

      They quite literally, IMO, represent everything reprehensible and repulsive. It would appear to say a lot for the section of society who vote for them!

      However, my personal experience doesn’t quite tell me this. Scotland has lots of older small-c-conservative people who think of the Tories in a 1960s One Nation way. These folks seem decent enough people, they just haven’t updated their views on what the Tories now stand for,

      When did the Tories, anywhere, last vote for anything involving decency?

    6. Muscleguy says:

      As a sometime 400m runner I wish to absolutely dissociate us one lappers from any implied linkage with Mr Whittle or his views.

      It may be that in his training he did anaerobic training too often and too hard and ended up with brain damage caused by oxygen lack.

      I survived and got a Science PhD so it didn’t do me any harm but then I never represented a country at the Commonwealth games. I went and stress fractured my tibia instead which kinda kyboshed my athletic career. I also went and got married and had kids which does the same thing (they get colds and give them to you in essence).

      Maybe I had a lucky escape. Absent my cracked bone and over active loins and I too could be dribbling idiot and espousing Tory policies.

      I did that once, in public too. Auckland Open Impromptu Debating competition 1983. In the semi final I found myself having to spout a whole lot of right wing dribble so I went all demagogue and gung-ho with it and the grey heads in the audience were lapping it up.

      We lost but they named me best speaker, for authentically spouting right wing dribble.

      My conscience won’t let me do it for real and my recent background in RIC would probably count against me if I were to drop Ruthie a line. So I’ll just have to stay a Left of Centre Yes advocate instead. Could be worse 😉

    7. In my view calling him thick, gives him an out, I think he is in total denial about the devastating impact his party and Government’s polices are having on the lives of ordinary people.

      He simply just doesn’t want to know the truth and will use any excuse to convince himself, that what he is saying is true.

    8. Mike says:

      Its not stupidity its a mental health issue. The cunt is a sociopath plain and simple he doesn’t understand the concept of empathy or sympathy or sacrifice or anything that involves not being self indulgent because he cant. That’s why he is the very epitome of Tory ideology. Fascist fodder and the saddest part of it all is he is totally self unaware of who and what he truly is. He thinks he is a pillar of the community as they all do. They believe themselves to be respectable and honourable because they wash every day groom themselves and wear smart clothes. This is how they measure themselves and other people. If you cant groom yourself and look “Respectable” you’re worth less than a fine pedigree pup.
      And Im not kidding.

    9. Marie Clark says:

      Wow, kinda takes your breath away that level of stupidity.

      I think the Tories must have a workshop somewhere that produces all of these androids. I mean they can’t be human can they?

      What a truly horrible, reprehensible creature he is.

    10. Dr Jim says:

      He really should have stuck with *On your marks !bang!* I’m told he was qualified for that, and easy to remember

    11. geeo says:

      He was a complete failure as an athlete as well.

      Rubbish at that as well as whatever the heck he does these days.

    12. Greannach says:

      The list system needs to be addressed. It is a good measure to allow new faces into Parliament, but there should be a limit on the number of times a candidate can be rejected by the public then get in on the list.

      The fact that so many list MSPs are pretty low-grade is a problem for the parties who select these deadbeats. It may be that they simply cannot find more suitable/intelligent candidates or it may be that they deliberately choose halfwits in order to undermine Parliament and send us the message that we are unfit to run our own affairs. That’s maybe a bit Macchiavelian for the people running the branch parties, though.

    13. yerkitbreeks says:

      Such a shame interviewees such as Mr Whittle can’t have editorial control – think how the Tory flunkies could have sanitised his responses.

    14. call me dave says:

      Aye there’s a lot them Tories about right enough. 🙁

      Hmm! ‘The quickest sock in history’
      Lost a running shoe in a race I saw a long time back.

      In a team made up of 4 countries pretending to be one. 🙁

      PS:
      Over the sea to Skye Blackford, you…you…SNP Nationalist you!

      Another HoC farce. 🙂

    15. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Yup, a perfect illustration of why AMS and the list element in particular isn’t fit for purpose. (Rather like Brian Whittle MSP, in fact.)

      An unsatisfactory compromise foisted on us, like much else, by an antediluvian power-greedy Labour Party (Northern Branch).

    16. johnj says:

      I’ve just read the article.

      What a Twat.

    17. yesindyref2 says:

      Perhaps Richard Lennard will send him a Christmas Card to show him the true meaning of Christmas and, errr, universal (but not for you) credit and foodbanks.

    18. call me dave says:

      Oh Aye!

      Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson told MPs that 3,500 military personnel were ready to be deployed if needed by any government departments in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

      https://archive.is/ijQ7S

    19. Albert Herring says:

      @call me dave

      Those damned laces are so hard to tie.

    20. Davy says:

      FOR SALE : Two short planks.

      no longer required – contact tory party.

    21. Luigi says:

      call me dave says:

      18 December, 2018 at 2:43 pm

      Oh Aye!

      Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson told MPs that 3,500 military personnel were ready to be deployed if needed by any government departments in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

      Well, I guess that would be enough to protect Downing Street from the yellow vests (for a few days). 🙂

    22. Juteman says:

      He could simply have said, ‘get orf moi land’ and we would have understood.

    23. Macart says:

      @Luigi

      “Well, I guess that would be enough to protect Downing Street from the yellow vests (for a few days).”

      After which they’ll join the yellow vests willingly.

    24. lumilumi says:

      Astounding. Especially that

      “… he actually actively sought out a journalist to say this stuff to.

      He wasn’t trapped or caught with his guard down. He urgently wanted people to know that he thought this, and is presumably satisfied with how it went.”

      Is he really thick, in denial, or so arrogant with his toryism that he sees nothing wrong with this?

      I think it’s indicative of the shallowness of the tory talent pool in Scotland that people like this get put up as list candidates and then accidentally become MSPs without knowing what it entails.

      Now, before anybody jumps on the Holyrood system of (partial) propotional representation as being “undemocratic” or whatever, for producing list MSPs like Whittle, remember that Nicola Sturgeon started her Holyrood career as a list MSP, as did a lot, if not most SNP MSPs from the 2007 election that brought in the first SNP administration.

      The difference being that the SNP’s list MSPs were and are of a much higher calibre as regards understanding the facts, the issues, the workings of an administration and how various policies affect the whole, not to mention having a positive vision, integrity and principles. This points to the SNP having a much larger and deeper talent pool to draw from than any of the unionist parties. The SNP aren’t perfect but they sure as hell are the best Scotland’s got right now.

    25. Luigi says:

      The BBC are reporting rumours of a gigantic 50-foot squirrel roaming the streets. The government is advising people to stay indoors until further notice.

    26. Dan Huil says:

      Whittle is a complete tractor. An uncaring eejit. A total disgrace to Scotland. The britnat media loves him.

    27. Luigi says:

      lumilumi says:

      18 December, 2018 at 2:58 pm

      I think it’s indicative of the shallowness of the tory talent pool in Scotland that people like this get put up as list candidates and then accidentally become MSPs without knowing what it entails.

      Indeed – the tories used to be cunning and nasty. Now they are just thick and nasty.

    28. Kenno says:

      England will become one of the most politically isolated countries on earth after Brexit.

      Hell mend the arrogant bastards.

      They deserve all the bad luck that is coming down the line to hit them like a runaway train.

    29. geeo says:

      Watching an utterly disgusting level of supposed ‘debate’ at WM, which is no more than thick braying tory bastards trying to ridicule the SNP every time they speak.

      Our chaps are not having it, by bringing up several points of order accusing tories of CLEARLY LYING and misrepresenting things they just said the opposite of in the chamber.

      Speaker just sat there and said the tories are fine to mislead misrepresent and lie at will.

      An SNP walkout 5 minutes ago on that basis from their own debate, would have been a devastating move.

      “Why did you walk out”?

      “Because the speaker said it was ok for tories to misrepresent parliament about what we had JUST SAID in the debate” !!

      Not big on such moves, but there is definitely a place for it to make a stand.

      Brexit secretary 3 says: “Because Scots voted No in 2014, we (Scots) voted to leave the EU”

      Turning off this drivel now.

    30. Dr Jim says:

      I do hope lots of Scottish folk are listening to the House of Commons right now to give themselves an education in what the Tories think of Scotland and Scottish people

      It’s the very reason I could never be a SNP politician my temperament wouldn’t allow it and that’s why I have the utmost respect and admiration for their patience and tolerance not to chib the lot of the Tory Bastirts

      And you know what at my age incarceration is a lot less of a threat, I’m right on the edge with these insulting Bastirts using parliamentary privilege to lie and abuse Scotland

      That was me using privilege af age to be unpleasant about them, I don’t care I’m old

    31. Clootie says:

      Ruthie must be so proud!

      I am trying to think of any other profession, with that level of salary, that does not require ANY level of competence.to undertake the task required. In addition any person performing at his level of competence would have been sacked…which takes us back to all of the Tory list MSPs. A group of employees paid to run down and denigrate their employer – Scotland.

      Pay attention Scotland – are you happy with Tory incompetence? Remember this performance next time you vote. Unfortunately you may get them anyway…look at Murdo’s record.

    32. Gordon G says:

      A truly awesome mind – makes Annie Wells look quite brilliant…

    33. Kenno says:

      Dr Jim

      I am watching that debate in Westmidden and it’s “let’s all laugh at Scotland”.

    34. Clootie says:

      @Dr. Jim 3:11

      ….but to your credit you are not angry out of self interest ( you said it…old)
      You are like most of us angry because of the future denied to the generations to come.

    35. Les Wilson says:

      I really do not know how our MP’s put up with all this crap, at Westminster,even if it is on our behalf.
      The Tory attitude to Scotland really knows no lows,and they are soo smug about it.It makes me very angry, bye, cannot come soon enough.

    36. Macart says:

      @geeo

      Were those BS3’s exact words?

    37. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      lumilumi @ 14:58,

      Please don’t confuse PR in general (which is mostly a Good Thing) with list-based AMS, a poor compromise intended to cement the Labour Party’s hold over Scotland. And which in the end didn’t even manage to achieve that!

    38. msean says:

      Some of the thickest seem to have been ‘elected’ at the 2016 intake.Just think,the list system has brought the thick listers who will be there as long as 20 years or more. Something has to be done. Term limits for the list MSPs please,at the very least. Would also like the lucky loser thing where you can stand for a constituency and also be on the list done away with.

    39. Luigi says:

      Ultimate power grab approaching:

      Martial Law. 🙁

    40. Essexexile says:

      This is where the SNP miss Angus Robertson unfortunately. He was too sharp to let the Tories bully him and had great presence.
      I’ve warmed to Ian Blackford, and I think he feels more comfortable in the job now but he’s still a bit anonymous in the HoC.
      Not sure about another walk out. The first one didn’t achieve much tbh and the Tory rags presented it as petulism.
      Just need to show some real passion against the braying tosspots.

    41. call me dave says:

      Aye! They strut, swagger, bluster and gloat on the outside but deep down they ken they have made a complete a*r*e of their time as a government. But darn Sarf there is no opposition to their staus and entitlement.

      Jeremy?… well… The challenge is too much, the brain cells too wee and the yellow stripe shines brightly better no eh!.

      PS:WOS twitter:

      I heard that a ‘cockwomble’ was chicken herder but I am not too sure about that myself. 🙂

    42. blackhack says:

      Some people are too stupid to realise that they’re stupid

    43. Scott says:

      Who was the Tory who told Ian Blackford to go home to Skye ignorant twat who ever.

    44. Craig P says:

      Every time someone wants to scrap additional member, they are obviously forgetting the experience the SNP gained since 1999 in list seats.

      The quality of the representatives is the party’s problem, not proportional representation’s.

    45. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi
      Scott at 3:47 pm.

      You asked,
      “Who was the Tory who told Ian Blackford to go home to Skye ignorant twat who ever.”

      On Twitter, it was said to have been Nicholas Soames.

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1075040633277030400

    46. Essexexile after the last walkout the membership of the SNP went up by thousands so it worked when people seen they were doing something

    47. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Whittle and his ilk are actually beyond the bounds of simple contempt. They occupy, an as yet, uncategorised sphere of mental abnormality. All that can be said with any certainty about such people is that, collectively, (often in the guise of a political party) they are capable of exerting a most insidious and debilitating effect on civilised peoples and societies.

    48. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Craig P @ 15:47,

      At the risk of repetition, please don’t conflate AMS with PR. It only brings the latter into disrepute. There are far better ways of achieving fair representation for all.

      And like many folk, as a voter I prefer to be able to choose my representatives, not have them foisted on me by a party hierarchy, whatever my political views.

    49. galamcennalath says:

      OT manipulative msm?

      Last night the big stories were May walking out of WM almost greeting, Corbyn saying he would table vote of no confidence in her, and SNP and others saying they would place an amendment for full no confidence in government.

      These are massive stories.

      18 hours later, nothing on this. Main headlines are all ‘no deal’ preparations and troops on standby.

      What is going on!?

    50. raineach says:

      3500 troops on standby. That’s less than 6 per constituency. That should keep the plebs in order

    51. Scottish Steve says:

      Wow. Whittle is the perfect representation of the talent within the Conservative Party, i.e. none at all. I wonder if these Tories are just wilfully capricious when they ignore the disastrous effects of their policies on the poor and vulnerable or if they are clinical psychopaths physically unable to feel empathy because that part of their brain doesn’t work.

      You have to have a selfish streak to vote Tory. If you seriously believe Conservative policies help people, you’re either delusional or just plain stupid.

    52. Liz g says:

      Craig P @ 3.47
      I think the general consensus is for stopping the “unlimited “ terms an individual can be in Parliament on the list .
      I do agree that the list system can allow parties to bring talented people into our Parliament.
      But Two terms should be more than enough to show what they can offer Scotland and convince the electorate to then vote them into a seat.
      This also has the benefit of obliging parties to find new talent as well as preventing the continuing of rejects having a seat by the grace and favour of their parties. We are supposed to be choosing who gets to sit there!

    53. Colin Alexander says:

      If we had independence we would be extremely unlikely to have Tory Govts. We’d be extremely unlikely to have Universal Credit and the two child benefit cap and the Rape Clause.

      Oliver Mundell MSP, son of David( please don’t mention Stu’s joke ), has given his support for an anti-suicide campaign. A worthy cause.

      I once had the “pleasure” of speaking to him and hearing his views on benefit cuts for the sick and disabled.

      According to him, they never happened and the UK Govt is doing a wonderful job in getting people back into work.

      How many people across the UK have been driven to attempting suicide due to the fear and hopelessness caused by Tory policies such as disabled benefit cuts, Universal Credit and benefit sanctions? The few stories that get reported are only the tip of the iceberg.

    54. Clapper57 says:

      Nicholas Soames…Wikipedia page updated by some clever person now showing as :

      Sir Arthur Nicholas (Go Back To Skye) Winston Soames.

      Honest….wahahahaha

    55. Liz g says:

      raineach @ 4.17
      That’s no even enough tae steward an Indy march!
      It’s no like the Tories to “under “ deploy the military?
      I do wonder though…. is there an upsurge in orders for numberless Police Uniforms!

    56. Legerwood says:

      Liz g:
      18 December, 2018 at 4:27 pm

      I think that 3,500 may be just about all they have. I read an article the other day which said the MOD had spent millions on a recruitment drive which had failed. They outsourced it!

      Article said current strength was under 80,000 and was the lowest for some time.

    57. Essexexile says:

      Blair Paterson @ 15.59
      That’s a fair point. 5000 odd actually claimed increase in membership. Although, it has to be said it was also on the promise of an SNP guerilla war on Brexit which hasn’t really materialised.
      A question though.
      If all the SNP MPs resign and trigger by elections and the SNP then stand on a crystal clear ticket of ‘indyref2 post Brexit’ would that be an effective course of action?

    58. Sarah says:

      I’ve thought for a long time that MPs/MSPs/Councillors should have to be tested for IQ and psychiatrically for empathy ratings.

      The reason for the IQ level being important is obvious – that MPs etc need to be capable of absorbing and analysing data quickly.

      And the psychiatric tests should establish if someone has the ability to feel for people in different circumstances from themselves. Sociopaths should not be in a position to make decisions relating to people’s welfare.

    59. Sarah says:

      Re Nicholas Soames, I think he was the one who used to [may be still does] gesture in a Les Dawson way [as in when Les was in drag as a bosomy gossipy neighbour]whenever a female MP spoke in the House.

      What gets me is how he is still selected by his local party – why isn’t his local press plastering such behaviour over their front pages?

    60. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I remember hearing of a theory of the rise of businesses:

      The first generation starts and establishes a business

      The second generation expands it

      The third generation loses it all.

      Nicolas “Go back to Skye” Soames, is the third generation of Winston Churchill’s family to sit in the HoC.

      His grandfather could surely have come up with some cutting put down of Ian Blackford, but, his would have been funny and wounding – Soames’ effort was very poor in the extreme, and merely showed him up for the bufoon he is.

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T – Sorry to go O/T so soon but Tommy Sheppard has just said in the Westminster debating chamber that Parliament should make no mistake, that if Scotland’s demands for a trade deal like N.I. which keeps Scotland within the EU open market the Scottish Government will use their internationally recognised human right to claim self determination.

      Is this Game On? It can only mean Nicola has agreed with the Westminster contingent that a claim of independence is on the cards.

    62. Kenno says:

      Englishman Luke Graham Tory MP for south Perthshire speaking now at Westminster is a fuckin arse and a vote winner for Scottish Independence.

    63. Gary45% says:

      What’s the difference between Forest Gump and Brian Whittle?
      One has integrity, honesty, decency and liked to run, the other is a Tory. (I suppose ANY TORY would do)
      Stupid is as stupid does.
      Whittle and Fud “QE” Fraser= Dumb and Dumber.

    64. Gary45% says:

      Kenno@4.50
      He is also a Tory hide and seek specialist.

    65. Mogabee says:

      Bri.am an idiot Whittle was originally shocked he had won and what it all entailed.

      Sounds as if no-one ever told him to take off his dunces cap and come out of the corner!

      Ruth Davidson has taught all these nuggets well.

    66. Fairliered says:

      Essexexile: if the SNP MPs force by elections, the unionists may put only one candidate up against them, in the hope of some of them losing their seats. Whereas at a GE, they have to all stand candidates because they will be looking at – to them – bigger picture of Westminster power.

    67. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      3500 “troops”

      or 1.8% of UK Armed Forces then.

      “As of 1 April 2018 this is a total strength of 194,140 “UK Service Personnel” (149,710 UK Regulars and Gurkhas, 36,480 Volunteer Reserves and 7,960 “Other Personnel”).”

      Will ‘Colonel’ Yadaftie be recalled to the colours to aid the distribution of food and medicine to the Scottish electorate?

      I suspect she will go to the MO for a biff chit on account of her alleged bad back.

    68. Thepnr says:

      The full story that the Rev links to has another belter of Whittle’s ignorance that is not in this article.

      He adds: “If you walk across the threshold for the first time, to a foodbank, now I can’t imagine what that’s like, to get to a point where you go, ‘I can’t do it, I can’t look after my family here’, right? I can’t imagine what that’s like. I have walked across the threshold, reasonably recently, to sign on, and that was horrendous. That was about ten years ago, I don’t think it’s as bad as that now. But I can’t imagine how I would feel if I had to do that to feed my family, so let’s get that out the way.”

      He thought that things were “horrendous” 10 years ago for those that had to claim social security but believes it isn’t “as bad as that now”.

      What a fucking idiot, it is much worse now with the truly “horrendous” assessments that disabled people must go through to prove they are ill. Those actually seeking jobs, presumably like him 10 years ago have to fill in a ‘Claimant Commitment” and have their own “work coach” who supervises their commitment to seek work.

      Failure to do this to the coach’s satisfaction means you will face sanctions you could find yourself “crossing the threshold” of a foodbank.

      It’s just a pity that he never had to go through such trauma 10 years ago, it’s just a pity that none of them have ever had to as that just might wake them up to the reality of life in a foodbank queue.

    69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 16:22,

      The “list system” doesn’t bring new faces into Parliament. It actually enables fixers and old lags who have an “in” with their party.

      Just take Mike Rumbles as an example. Ousted a decent and hard-working existing LibDem MSP, Alison McInnes, from the top of their list, and hence consigned her to political oblivion. Replaced her with a total diddy, and not a thing the voters could do about it. Not much of a help, that, to put it mildly.

      It’s not about time-limiting or any other typical British bodge on top of a bodge. It’s time we did it properly from the ground up, and copied the likes of Ireland.

    70. Craig P says:

      Robert J Sutherland, AMS is a subset of PR, but fair point about party lists. I would quite like to at least be able to rank the party lists.

    71. Effijy says:

      Makes sense to me!
      Whittle’s talent was running in a circle behind
      People who knew where they were going and
      Who were Doing it better.

      He was and is a Harrier-
      Person who engages in persistent attacks on others or
      Incursions on their land.

      Sums up him and the Tories perfectly.

    72. geeo says:

      @macart.

      Paraphrased.

      The usual speil, that by voting No, Scots voted to be part of the uk and as such, were bound by the brexit vote leave and will be leaving as the uk.

      Meant to go back and record the exchange, but thats what he clearly meant.

    73. Rock says:

      “having been thrashed by more than 12,400 votes in the election but foisted on taxpayers anyway via the list system.”

      Are you against the list system in Scotland?

      Would you prefer a Westminster type “First Past The Post” system?

      I am sure that the stupidity and nastiness of the likes of Brian Whittle can be exposed without discrediting what I believe to be a democratic system.

      The first SNP government only came about because of the list system.

    74. jfngw says:

      I see Herald ran Labour ‘cowardice’ quote on its pages regarding the Health Secretary. Today Labour quote the Herald to try and reinforce the point. Turns out both of them are actually too stupid to understand what the guidance says. Stand up Hutcheon and Lennon our band of idiots, Stupider Together.

    75. Torqil Fflufington Smythe says:

      Whittles father had a sense of humour—-his Jaguar car had a licence plate number.—- 50BER

    76. Dr Jim says:

      The list system:

      I have nothing against the list system except for one thing, when it’s used to shoe horn into seats people who don’t have the ability to contribute to the enhancement of debate and law making in Scotland’s, our parliament

      And that is exactly what both Labour and the Tories do, both of these parties are so bereft of candidates of any quality wishing to join their benighted parties they push through people like Whittle, Jamie Greene, Annie Wells for goodness sake who when she got notification she had been chosen as a MSP wasn’t even sure which party she was in because she thought you got allocated to a party by the parliament, that’s the level of genius we’re saddled with, these people can’t learn along the way like apprentice door hangers, they’re just unsuitable and incompetent and I wouldnae let them hang my door either

      I won’t even begin to name the Labour lot I’d be here all day, so in conclusion I still think the idea of the list is fundamentally sound but the practice as employed by the opposition parties is to our parliament’s detriment which reflects on all of us

      One might posit the argument the opposition parties prefer to embarrass our country rather than help to improve it

    77. schrodingers cat says:

      reforms for holyrood

      not something we can actually do until we are elected in the next he with a mandate to do so

      1. one unique vote to elect your constituency msp.

      2.your vote is then counted a 2nd time and added to a scotland wide total.

      3.list msps then selected as per their parties share of vote. randomly
      eg, 60 potential list msp seats, the tories stand 60 candidates and win 20, the 20 winners are drawn from a hat containing the 60 tory candidates names

    78. jfngw says:

      I see Nicholas Soames has been at it again, last time I believe they had to hose him down as he was contemplating some form of dog behaviour at a SNP MP.

      I also believe when Roy Hattersley failed to turn up at HIGNFY he was replaced by a tub of lard. If the tub of lard was not available the next option was Nocholas Soames.

    79. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 5.06
      I didn’t say that it would “ require “ parties to bring through new talent, only that it could, and would also add that it’s the only real defense of the list system existing..

      I also don’t necessarily disagree that there are more desirable voting systems.
      And I certainly agree that we will take a look and decide on our own if we want a change to a system we designed.
      But that will take time and over it we should be taking our time!!
      But Indy first …and to limit the terms that a list candidate can serve on the list is something that can be done immediately

    80. Johnj says:

      Could we not just rename this plonker ‘The Accidental MSP’.?

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m guessing Brian Whittle would think “Jet Pop” was a good name for an airline.

    82. Les Wilson says:

      At Westminster, Tommy Shepherd@s speech was excellent, the all spoke well,so far I am sure it will end the same way.
      Listened to Stephen Kerr from Stirling Tories, what a piece of S… that guy is.
      He is a blotch on Scotland and needs to be removed at the first opportunity, do not watch it if you have high blood pressure.

    83. galamcennalath says:

      raineach says:

      3500 troops on standby. That’s less than 6 per constituency.

      Och, they’ll just be deployed to protect Tory ministers! They’ll need protecting when things start to fall apart!

    84. geeo says:

      Here is a sobering thought for those who ask “do you want to use FPTP” like WM.

      Based on actual FPTP Holyrood results, from a total of 129 seats, SNP would have won 104(.5) seats in 2016.

      104/129.

      Now ask yourself, given the ACTUAL result at Holyrood, why does WM not advocate D’Hont for WM ?

      Its a puzzle huh ?

    85. schrodingers cat says:

      it isnt the holyrood electoral system which needs reform, it iss the council election

      eg, i am in a 3 member ward which covers 6 towns(old royal burghs) so each town is represented by 3 coincillors. thing is, this system distances the councillors from the electorate, eg, in my town, people dont care what party a candidate is in, they want to elect someone who represents their interests, (usually, big issues are things like planning permission) and to be able to deselect them if they dont. which is very difficult with the present system.

      eg, (1965) the town council, using common ground on the edge of the town, built 200 council houses for the towns people. not everyone wanted them but the provost who was elected just prior to the decision, was the candidate who promised to do this.

      whereas now, the location of new builds, agreed by EVERYONE in the town to be unsuitable(flood planes being the latest wheeze) and indeed whether the towns people want them or not (generally they do) is decided by councillors from dunfermline or kirkaldy (the majority) even if all 3 of our elected councillors do not.

    86. Robin says:

      @Gary 45%, 4.58pm

      Concur Re my MP.
      I have visited his office to ask a question, umpteen weeks ago, left addresses, phone numbers email contacts and no reply.
      Emailed again three weeks ago, copied to No.10, promised responses from both but nothing so far. Too late now!

    87. Thepnr says:

      “The Scottish government is making “detailed preparations” for the UK leaving the EU without a deal”.

      I suppose that this must be done but doubt it will help very much if we do in fact end up in a no deal situation. The problems will very much be real, worth taking notice of I’d suggest.

      http://archive.fo/XFJK2

    88. Kenno says:

      The contempt the English at Westminster have for Scotland is infuriating.

      No wonder the English are seen in such a bad light in Scotland and throughout Europe

    89. @Legerwood

      Army is 85,000 regulars,

      Navy and Airforce take it up to 150,000 regulars,

      Capita was the firm outsourced to manage Army recruitment,

      `Army Careers is run by Capita under a £1.3 billion deal. However they are not fit for purpose. They fail to meet targets yet still make large profits. Their staff who have no actual experience in the Army lack the ability to inspire potential recruits to join.`

      Capita share price is down from 1330 in 2015 to 104 today,

      it will be another Carillion.

    90. twathater says:

      I’ll be honest i’m losing faith in some of these food banks ,

      I know they do a GREAT service to communities suffering the impact of tory and liebour austerity , but to permit these lying arseholes who ARE RESPONSIBLE for people’s misery , to use these degrading but needed facilities to be photographed smiling and handing over their morsels as a photo opportunity is wrong on so many levels

      For this Whittle the dumb to spout the exact reverse of figures supplied by the food bank , and for this craven stupidity not to be widely and publicly ridiculed by ALL parts of the MSM shows the level of complicity there is in ignoring anything bad from the britnat parties .
      Also I saw on twatter that Paul Sweeney that shipbuilding freedom fighter of the RED TORIES had at some committee agreed with his BLUE TORY comrades to sell out the fishermen . ALL IS NORMAL IN BRITNAT YOON WORLD but don’t tell anybody

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      From that link:

      Responding to Mr Russell, Tory MSP Adam Tomkins said the best way to avoid exiting without a deal was to accept the deal which will be put to a vote of MPs in January.“.

      No, the best way to avoid exiting without a deal is not to exit at all.

    92. lumilumi says:

      Greannach @ 2:25pm, Robert J. Sutherland @ 2:36pm and 3:32pm; and others

      Indeed. Without getting too tinfoily, the Scottish Parliament election system being a strange fudge between FPTP and PR, and the mess of enmeshed devolved/reserved powers/budgets seems deliberate.

      Making Scottish politics quite difficult to understand unless you educate yourself a bit and pay some attention – which the unionist parties are counting on, the electorate not doing it, to continue their hegemony in Scotland.

      The unionist parties are in a big huff and desperate now that it’s not working so well for them anymore.

      I’ve been thinking about this all quite a lot, in terms of differing political cultures. I come from a profoundly different political culture. My country got a full suffrage (women included) proportional representation Parliament in 1906. That was 11 years before our independece… hmm… Were we the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world? We even had our own currency since 1860!

      Since 1809, our autonomous diet (pre-democratic parliament, like the UK’s until 1928) set our policies, taxes, basically all but foreign policy.

      Then our full suffrage democratic Parliament in 1906. It couldn’t set foreign policy but basically everything else, including trade agreements. (Hmm… maybe why the UK gov are so dead against more devolution for Scotland, they know it ends in independence, citing our example)

      Especially since indepence in 1917, full suffrage (women included) proportional representation Parliament and the resulting coalition governments seeking political consensus to take the country forward have become the norm. This informs our political culture. The way we think of what politicians should do. Not fight and be petty for the sake of fighting “the opponent”. UK politics is anathema for us.

      For us, seeking consensus and different parties working together is a good thing. We don’t see it as “shady back room horse trading” but as a normal political process that ensures that no one party is able to dictate the road our nation takes.

      British politics, the old two-party system encouraged by the FPTP electoral system is broken, but it is proving very, very difficult to change it. Even Scots, with a sort of a PR system don’t embrace changing FPTP because they’re so seeped in the old British political system. And I’m using the word “British” advisedly. The UK Parliament and the resulting political culture that came about since 1707 is your problem and burden.

      Even in Scotland, when many of you denounce list MSPs, and expect the SNP have a simple majority in a basically PR parliament. PR doesn’t work like that. The problem for Scottish devolved Parliament democracy is an expectation of FPTP-type majority rule – dictature – in a PR parliament that should work on a consensus, coalition principle. But imposing this new political system on the electorate without educating them results is a muddle.

      Plus no unionist parties willing to enter into a coalition with the SNP, and fellow independence supporters (Greens) too concerned with their own petty politics. It’s very understandable that PR politics doesn’t work well in a traditional FPTP political culture, and the constitutional question has further excerbated this.

      It’s almost as if the powers that be are trying their best to hamper proper PR democracy and then say “See, we told you, it wouldn’t work.”

    93. Macart says:

      @geeo

      Ta much. 🙂

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      “Join the Army to have a mug of tea and a hug” probably didn’t cut it for a lot of people.

    95. galamcennalath says:

      What would ‘no deal’ Brexit actually mean?

      Like everything else in this sorry affair, the EU will call the shots.

      Reading around, I think the main priority of the EU will be to prevent a (global) financial crisis. Accordingly, something will be thrashed out to protect the EU27, and by necessity the world and UK financial system.

      Then a few humanitarian things. Planes will fly so passengers aren’t left stranded all over the place. Another fix will be worked out. Then, I reckon drugs will be allowed to move with minimum interruption. And across EU27+UK, people won’t be summarily deported.

      Other than that, IMO, it stands a good chance of being utter chaos! The EU cannot sacrifice the integrity of the single market by allowing goods from a third country to enter freely. Customs will grind to a halt. I wouldn’t plan to take a vehicle across the channel after Brexitday!

    96. jfngw says:

      In Holyrood I would scrap the list voting form and use the percentages from the constituency votes to allocate the list seat MSP’s. Also the order of the MSP’s from a party would then be in voter preference order from the constituency vote, ordered by party according to the number of actual votes received.

      This allows the voters to have some say in the election of list MSP’s rather than just the parties. Also it is one person one vote, none of this splitting your vote nonsense. Also stop parties not standing candidates in certain constituencies but relying on list votes.

    97. yesindyref2 says:

      13 Tory MPs from Scotland holding the balance of power even including the DUP, does mean they could have forced the Type 31 frigate build contract to come to Scotland. A very obvious and probably expected used of their power.

      They rolled over and sold out Scotland instead.

    98. geeo says:

      Kenno says:

      18 December, 2018 at 5:49 pm

      The contempt the English at Westminster have for Scotland is infuriating.

      No wonder the English are seen in such a bad light in Scotland and throughout Europe
      ……..

      Actually, it is WM rule which people in Scotland are pissed off with, NOT English people.

      English people are not responsible for the behaviour of their politicians towards Scotland.

      Pretty confident not a single English MP was ever elected by proclaiming Scotland is shite, or subsidised by English voters, otherwise, English voters would refuse to vote for them, unless they promised to get rid of Scotland from the Union.

      I have absolutely nothing against English people, i wish them well actually, and my greatest wish for them, is for them to wake up politically and see what we in Scotland see, about how the WM establishment is a sham democracy.

      You on the other hand, are beneath my contempt.

      Your location is again, irrelevent.

      Now, take your anti English bigotry, and your wee chums, and go infect the Daily Mail pages, yur types natural home.

      Nobody is listening here to your pish and slavers.

    99. Rock says:

      geeo says:
      18 December, 2018 at 5:35 pm

      “Here is a sobering thought for those who ask “do you want to use FPTP” like WM.

      Based on actual FPTP Holyrood results, from a total of 129 seats, SNP would have won 104(.5) seats in 2016.

      104/129.”

      Do you want a relatively democratic system or an undemocratic one with Thatcher and Blair like “landslides” with barely 40% of the vote?

      56 out of 59 SNP MPs with 50% of the vote was highly undemocratic.

      And even then, they achieved ZERO for Scotland at Westminster.

      Nicholas Soames is right – if the SNP MPs had a sense of self respect, they would have come back when the Scotland Act miserably failed to deliver “The Vow” and the 56 SNP MPs were completely ignored and humiliated.

    100. Legerwood says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 5.53pm
      18 December, 2018

      Thank you for the details. I knew from the article that it had all turned into an expensive fiasco and sounded, as you say, like another Carillon in the making.

    101. Kenno says:

      Geeo

      You are perfectly entitled to your point of view,,,,,as I am perfectly entitled to my point of view.

      If you don’t like what I post you can just scroll on by, ,,it really is as easy as that ,,simples !!!

    102. Clapper57 says:

      STV six o’clock Scottish news just edited out Mr Soames ” Go back to Skye” comments AND response to him by Ian Blackford.

      Film showed Ian stand up look over at Soames and then film jumped to Ian saying something else.

      Omission eh…..why one MUST ALWAYS go to social media for the news you are deliberately NOT getting via MSM.

      Oh but they had time to show Colin Clark make some SNPBAD comments…..will BBC Rep Scotland follow suit !!!!

    103. Rock says:

      Kenno says:
      18 December, 2018 at 5:49 pm

      “The contempt the English at Westminster have for Scotland is infuriating.”

      geeo says:
      18 December, 2018 at 6:08 pm

      “Actually, it is WM rule which people in Scotland are pissed off with, NOT English people.”

      I am sure by “the English at Westminster”, Kenno doesn’t mean English “plebs” but what you call “WM rule”.

    104. Tinto Chiel says:

      Re Nicholas Soames: I think it was one of his former female sexual partners who likened his attempt at sexual congress to having a wardrobe on top of you with a small key protruding from the lock.

      His behaviour towards female MPs is quite shocking but of course such immature public school behaviour is permitted by The Speaker.

      Whittle maintains the low standards of “Scottish” Tories, who are devoid of empathy, self-awareness and integrity.

    105. Kenno says:

      Anyway,,,before I was rudely interrupted, can I highlight how the 13 Tory tractors have at every opportunity ran Scotland into the ground.

      These Tory MPs are slaves to their English masters.

      They live as tractors’ and will die as tractors

    106. jfngw says:

      It would seem Labour policy at Westminster is to support the repatriation of devolved powers but to vote to keep them at Holyrood. As the SC judgement has ruled that Westminster can take whatever powers it wants then Labour’s real position can only be the Westminster position. The Holyrood one is obviously not serious, it is a fake to give the impression of supporting Scotland. They are no better than the Tories, worse in fact as at least the Tories are not pretending they don’t detest the idea of devolution.

    107. Thepnr says:

      I’m forever the optimist, that’s just my nature but just like everybody else I do have the down days as we all do at times.

      I’ve said before that I cannot see “no deal” being alloed to happen, there’s no such thing as an “accidental” no deal and it must be planned.

      I’m not so naive though to believe it cannot happen and in fact it is as far as I’m concerned a certainty unless there is a 2nd EU referendum. Whether there is or not is no doubt importnat too for the prospects of a 2nd Independence referendum, with no deal I honestly believe support for Independence and the SNP will rocket.

      There is no escaping the disruption the will be caused and the blame will be laid equally at the door of both Tory and Labour parties. Which is quite right, they both will be equally culpable for allowing such a situation that could have been avoided. In the case the SNP will have to move really quickly with plans for a 2nd Indy ref, we cannot allow things to settle down again in some kind of stability. This scenario must surely result in Independence else Scotland will never be Independent.

      The next few weeks will be very interesting as I expect disruption no matter what and especially if May’s deal fails to win support if held week beginning 14th Jan, no deal will become all too real even though it can still be avoided.

      Watch support grow for Independence as it surely will in the coming weeks, I just hope we are ready to take advantage of that somehow and can hang on to that new support even if eventually there is a vote to remain.

      After the New Year people are going to be talking of nothing else other than “no deal” Brexit, just like it was in the last few weeks before the 1st referendum. I know what I’ll be doing in any of these conversations and that’s slagging Labour and the Tories as incompetent and talking up the prospect of Independence. We have an opportunity here, an absolute gift in fact. I hope we can take full advantage.

    108. Robert Peffers says:

      @geeo says: 18 December, 2018 at 3:08 pm:

      ” … Turning off this drivel now.”

      You should have continued to watch, geeo. Later in the chamber there were several different SNP MPs who categorically stated that the SNP would certainly use their internationally recognised Human Rights to self determination for Scotland.

      Now get this thing right. The EU is signed up to the Human right of self determination for any identifiable group of people.

      Now you do not get more identifiable than being one of Europe’s oldest recognised countries, one of the Worlds oldest recognised kingdoms and one of the Worlds longest established civilisation that led Europe itself into the European Enlightenment.

      Now also remember that the same human right to self determination is a basic tenet of the United Nations and that the Westminster Parliament, either in or out of the EU, are signatories to both the EU Human Rights and United Nations Human Rights treaties.

      The SNP parliamentary group has this afternoon just stated that if Scotland is pulled out of the EU against the will of the legally sovereign people of Scotland that they will claim their human right of independence to govern themselves.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      I would scrap the list voting form and use the percentages from the constituency votes to allocate the list seat MSP’s. Also the order of the MSP’s from a party would then be in voter preference order from the constituency vote, ordered by party according to the number of actual votes received.

      Totally agree. That simple change would improve the quality of list MSPs because they would still have to prove themselves to the electorate and win votes.

      One catch. It would squeeze small parties. Tough. Nothing is perfect. If you are a serious party, you need to put up candidates in every constituency.

    110. wull says:

      Well said, lumilumi. You are absolutely correct. There is just a chance that the Brexit shambles will bring the totally outdated, and no longer fit for purpose (it never was anyway) politics of the UK to an end. Even in England. But all of us – not just the English but we Scots as well – have to grow up and move out of the totally destructive political culture we have all become so accustomed to.

      I think Scotland can learn more quickly and catch up faster than England, but it is not to be taken for granted. Independence – especially if we become a member state of the EU – should wake us up to what is required, and usher in (or at least facilitate) the birth of the new politics that is required.

      In 1999, when Holyrood was set up, we were promised that this would be a very different kind of politics, much removed from the unnecessarily confrontational style that has always prevailed at Westminster. The semi-circular design of the chamber (and the fact that it had proper seating capacity for all members, moreover with a desk format) was supposed to facilitate this more attentive and respectful approach. And it did, for a while.

      But then – according to my memory, which may need correction – the Tories were the first to start braying and table-thumping and generally misbehaving … and it wasn’t long before Labour followed suit. On the whole, I think – again, correct me if I am wrong – the SNP and even the Greens have generally been more restrained, though some of them also sometimes react in less than ideal ways.

      And the Lib Dems – sorry, I don’t know what to say about them, since I have no clue about how well or badly they behave. I never seem to notice them. Who are they, anyway?

    111. geeo says:

      Actually, Kenno, you have had posts removed for anti english bigotry and hate fuelled rants, so no, i will not scroll on by and allow that to go unchallenged.

    112. Republicofscotland says:

      The system needs overhauling, when the likes of Fraser and Whittle and other odious dimwits can have a say on how Scotland’s run.

      The likes of Carlaw and Wells and Cole-Hamilton contribute absolutely nothing to the benefit of Scotland. Nor does Rennie, Leonard or Kelly.

      Indeed the above actively hold Scotland back whilst being paid handsomely.

    113. geeo says:

      @robert peffers 6.29pm

      Cheers for that, bloody typical though !!

      I just couldn’t take any more shit coming from the tories, despite almost always watching these things all the way through, via gritted teeth.

      The SNP MP’s had not been taking any prisoners prior to me stopping watching, so delighted to hear they continued along that road.

      I said a wee while ago that there has been a more steely resolve to the SNP Contingent recently at WM, you do not do that unless you have a sound tactical plan in place.

      Cheers Robert .

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Yes, I think most people are switched off for Christmas and the New Year, but once in the New Year it’s “what’s on for this year”.

      I agree about trashing both UK parties, and would suggest a move to push the imaginary (so far) Larry the Cat party, with of course Larry already enthroned in Downing Street and wondering what on earth the Brexit catastrophe is all about, and why the basket cases are using his basket and stockpiling his Whiskas.

      Ridicule and humour often works where confrontation doesn’t. Get a smile and you’re halfway to a sale.

      Kerching. YES!

    115. Colin Alexander says:

      At least some people in Scotland voted for Brian Whittle.

      Indy means no Universal Credit and no House of Lords.

      Indy means democracy for Scotland, so we can shape our country the way we want it to be, not have it shaped by UK Parliament politicians who
      NOBODY in Scotland voted for.

    116. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers @ 6.29 pm

      Now THAT is interesting =)

      As for Whittlebrain, he is not just stupid and unfit to act as an MSP, but wicked in his ignorance and lack of humanity.

    117. jfngw says:

      Currently WM are trying to use scare tactics to make MP’s support May’s deal. But I’m pretty convinced that rather than lose face she will push through a no deal if she loses the vote, I really believe she is that deranged.

      Rees-Mogg is now very content with May as PM, I think this informs us of her direction, of course she lies a lot so maybe he is being duped.

    118. H Scott says:

      Part of the problem with the list system is that it uses a ‘closed list’ where the parties choose the order in which their candidates get elected. With an ‘open list’ the voter chooses the specific party candidate they want elected.
      Another part od the problem is simply the quality of the candidates.

    119. Dan Huil says:

      @Ghillie [& Robert Peffers 6:29pm]

      Very interesting.

    120. Cubby says:

      Essexexile @3.39pm

      At it again with your sneaky Britnat comments.

      “Not sure about another walkout. The first one didn’t achieve much tbh and the Tory rags treated it as petulism”.

      You seem to be very familiar with what the Tory rags are saying and always seem to be promoting what they advise.

      If my posts annoy you, then, as I have said before, try being a unique Britnat on Wings and don’t post Britnat crap. Simple really.

    121. jfngw says:

      @galamcennalath

      It would only hurt the Green party, butto be honest I have been disappointed with their showboating. If they have a good enough candidate they can win a constituency vote, or stand enough candidates to register their true support. Currently they are slurping most from SNP voters using tactical voting, the same happens with the unionist parties and having a single vote should stop this.

    122. Meg merrilees says:

      Nicholas Soames, grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, was the Tory MP who ‘barked’ during Tasmina’s speech. She called him out for his behaviour and requested an apology in Parliament. When asked to apologise he said that her voice had sounded like a dog when she was speaking and he made a barking sound as a friendly gesture of welcome.

      I wrote a letter to him at the time, complaining about his behaviour to another MP, especially a female who is a role model in her Community and who had endured Harassment and bullying through her work as an MP.

      Unsurprisingly, he did not reply – an action which sums up his character perfectly.

      Thankfully he is NOT my MP.

      And I’ll say this much – at least Stephen Kerr replies to his letters.

    123. Thepnr says:

      May can’t push through anything never mind a no deal. She cannot push through her own deal as she doesn’t have the support of the DUP for that. She cannot push through no deal as she most definitely does not have support of her own party to get that through.

      The number of her her own MP’s that are pro Remain and spoke against her in yesterday’s debate was very telling, it is a huge number so she is in trouble, she is a lame duck leader going nowhere.

      It will all come down to Corbyn and if he will ever get off his arse and support another EU referendum, he too is a lame duck and might have no choice other than to support one as he also is under threat of being thrown out on his arse.

      The incompetence on both sides is astonishing, never seen anything like it. Even plastic surgery couldn’t make either of them “look good”.

    124. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      Green party … they are slurping most from SNP voters using tactical voting

      I have always thought, and I’m not the only one to say it, there is a percentage of voters who don’t understand the voting system and think it’s first and second choices.

      Having just one vote would stop this effect.

    125. Kenno says:

      Geeo

      You seem to want to post your opinions unchallenged,,,but want my opinions deleted.

      Is this your idea of democracy???

      And the last time I checked this site belonged to Rev Stu.

      So, as has been said before, if you don’t like my posts then stroll on by Snow Flake

    126. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are only in Holyrood to try and wreck it. They have such few members they are dragged in off the streets to stand. Complete useless, ignorant incompetents. A total waste of taxpayers money. Most of them are lying chancers. They are just out for what they can get. They have absolutely no shame. Posing at foodbanks.

      The SNP have more members than the Tories.

      Drunken Soames at it again. The state of it. They should be drink and drug tested.

    127. Thepnr says:

      @Kenno

      “As the Proclaimers once sang,,,
      “England No More”.”

      No they didn’t, you just made that up.

      Lochaber no more
      Sutherland no more
      Lewis no more
      Skye no more

      Bathgate no more
      Linwood no more
      Methil no more
      Irvine no more

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOp3w0jwjRE

    128. geeo says:

      Aarrggh…when i post ed that last one on FB the entire debate comes up, when i do it here, it cuts off near the beginning !!!

      Sincere apologies.

    129. jfngw says:

      @galamcennalath

      There are two things I dislike about the list system. First the fact that the parties pick the parliamentarians. Secondly those in safe seats effectively have a second vote since they can chose their second choice party knowing their vote makes a difference and can then be used to keep other parties out.

      I also have an isuse with the SVT system in council by elections, it appears to me that gives some people multiple votes, a sort of, the person you wanted has been eliminated who else do you want. It is also too complex for most people to understand the result was arrived at (not sure I even do).

    130. call me dave says:

      If by some miracle a EU 2nd vote appears but is restricted to two choices…

      1. My Deal (May)
      2. No Deal

      What would Scots or NI Irish who voted Remain think about that?

      It could happen if Labour and Tories manipulate events .

    131. jfngw says:

      Dyslexia rules! should be issue & STV in previous post.

    132. Essexexile says:

      Thinking through the outcome of all 35 SNP MPs resigning and then campaigning on a plain and simple ‘no Brexit for Scotland with indyref2 promised if it is forced on us’.
      So that’ll be 35 by-elections all contested on the same day (pre 29th March hopefully). It will be a straight question to the electorate; do you want out of this Brexit mess.
      If the Unionist parties combine their campaigning and don’t contest seats against each other then all the better frankly as it would focus the point of the exercise.
      The SNP will be fighting on friendly territory and to return 35 MPs would be a very clear message to WM; If you go through with Brexit we will be holding a ref with or without your consent to respecting the result and we will do whatever it takes to enact independence if we get a majority.
      I don’t see any down sides to this at all, only positives.
      It would put Scotland front and centre on the agenda for the final few weeks before the end of March and it would make absolutely clear once and for all the direction of travel in Scottish politics post Brexit.
      And in all honesty what have the SNP got to lose? 35 MPs with no power who are treated as second class citizens by WM.
      Let us seize the initiative. Stop passively waiting to be shat on by Brexit.
      Can anybody think why this wouldn’t be a decent move?

    133. Dan Huil says:

      @geeo 7:28pm

      Thanks for the Hansard link. Seems complete to me, no need to apologize.

    134. Bobp says:

      Some proudscotbuts gave this excuse for a human being a vote.

    135. Alistair Waddell says:

      I saw Forrest Gump shaking his head while he was reading the interview.

    136. Ken500 says:

      Gordon Graham. The state of it. Another lying Labour bastard.

      ACC unionists wanted the homeless put in jail. Borrowed and spent £1.2Billion. In debt. Spent £Millions on empty shops, offices and underoccupied hotels. Muse monstrosity. They should be charged with embezzlement and put in jail. Kept in place by a two job Tory. A LibDem declared Independent to go in with them. Breaking electoral laws.

      LibDem paying another fine for illegal electoral spending.

    137. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@7.34pm

      “Can anybody think why this wouldn’t be a decent move?

      One answer is because a Britnat is proposing it.

    138. Bobp says:

      Call me dave 2.43pm. We know where those 3.500 troops wont be deployed . NI , they’ll be to frightened of you know who.

    139. Legerwood says:

      Essexexile @ 7.35pm

      Your suggestion that all the SNP MPs resign this triggering by-elections, as you said hopefully before 29th March 2019, would not work.

      Firstly, ‘resigning’ involves a fairly arcane process which is unlikely to allow a mass ‘resignation’.

      Secondly, the power to call the by-elections and thus the timing of the by-elections is wholly within the power of the Commons and the Government. That would allow them to delay the by-elections beyond the 29th March 2019.

      Thus ‘resigning’ would end up as an empty, counterproductive
      gesture.

      The best way to influence events in your favour is to be ‘in the room’ and that is where the SNP MPs are at the moment.

    140. geeo says:

      Thanks Dan@7.35

      Must be my device playing silly buggers, i posted it on here, clicked on link to make sure it works, just got tiny bit of it.

      Glad it works tho, all good !!

    141. Thepnr says:

      This government are deliberately upping the ante in their quest for support of May’s deal by alarming the public instead of reassuring them.

      This is really bad, I can just imagine how the most vulnerable might start to feel about this over Xmas when they could barely afford Xmas in the first place.

      “The public will start receiving alarming warnings through TV adverts and social media after Christmas about issues including stockpiling food and medicine, travel arrangements and security after Christmas.”

      http://archive.fo/yN8uW

      The Tories are despicable and we must get shot of them. Step up your own efforts in persuading our fellow Scots that it needn’t be like this. We have a better way, let’s use it.

    142. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T

      I’m a little confused .If you drop the permitted alcohol level for driving you automatically get more convictions for drink driving if folk keep drinking and driving. That is surely the fully expected result initially.

    143. Essexexile says:

      Legerwood
      Yeah, I figured there would be some WM process to disrupt the whole thing. I agree that as long as the 35 are present in HoC they are at least in a position to influence the debate.
      But post the meaningful vote, if we’re obviously heading for a no deal Brexit surely it’s worth considering?
      I mean seriously, at that point what do the SNP have to lose?
      Since they won 56, then 35 seats at WM they’ve struggled to make much more noise than when they had a handful. A large (ish) resignation would certainly bring ‘the Scottish question’ into focus.

    144. jfngw says:

      @Essexexile

      Because it would be pointless, they would pretty much need to take 100% of the votes to claim a majority of Scots support a mandate. Who would use this tactic when just over half the voters will take part. So basically your suggestion is nonsense.

      And as Ledgerwood says the WM rules pretty much prevent this happening, although if they all passed away I assume that would alter the situation, half expecting you to call for a co-ordinated suicide pact next.

      It would be ignored by Westminster the same way another walk out would by the media. Some tactics only work once.

    145. geeo says:

      @kenno the england hating bigot.

      LYRICS

      When you go will you send back
      A letter from America?
      Take a look up the rail track
      From Miami to Canada

      Broke off from my work the other day
      I spent the evening thinking about
      All the blood that flowed away
      Across the ocean to the second chance

      I wonder how it got on
      When it reached the promised land?

      I’ve looked at the ocean
      Tried hard to imagine
      The way you felt the day you sailed
      From Wester Ross to Nova Scotia

      We should have held you
      We should have told you
      But you know our sense of timing
      We always wait too long

      Lochaber no more
      Sutherland no inure
      Lewis no more
      Skye no more

      I wonder my blood
      Will you ever return?
      To help us kick the life back
      To a dying mutual friend

      Do we not love her?
      Do we not say we love her?
      Do we have to roam the world
      To prove how much it hurts?

      Bathgate no more
      Linwood no more
      Methil no more
      Irvine no more

      Songwriters: Charles Stobo Reid / Craig Morris Reid

      Letter From America lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc

      Make your apology sincere !

    146. Macart says:

      I see a Labour MP attempting to troll the SNP and independence support again. Pfft.

      https://twitter.com/AnneMcLaughlin/status/1075098171808849921

      Shame the facts do NOT support the claims. Seems t’me, they tend to point toward Labour playing silly buggers with both politics and truth. *shrugs* (again)

      THIS sort of idiocy is only going to become a more common occurrence. Just sayin’ folks. DO NOT rise to the bait. Mkay? Labour have their own problems (oboy do they ever) and history won’t look on their recent actions and inactions kindly. They’ve put a LOT of folk in harms way.

      Focus. There’s more important nasties to face and bigger problems to solve. Much like any other trolling. Leave them to it and scroll on by. 🙂

    147. Essexexile says:

      jfngw
      I’m not really suggesting achieving an actual mandate though, more a way of making maximum use of resources. These 35 MPs are a gift the SNP hasn’t really been able to use to much effect yet. Some sort of grand gesture may bring the focus on Scotland and then the SNP would be in more of a position to influence things – or even be listened to at all.
      Look what the DUP have achieved for themselves with 10 MPs. Or UKIP did with just 1.
      All tests I know, but the point is they made the most of what they had.

    148. Essexexile says:

      Twats not tests!

    149. geeo says:

      Typical exchange today, Deputy Speaker is a real piece of crap.
      ……..

      Stewart Malcolm McDonald

      Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I think you know, I have the greatest of respect for you, but it occurs to me from what you have just said that the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) can just come here, as she has done, make stuff up and then nothing happens. There has to be consequence for that. [Interruption.]

      Madam Deputy Speaker

      Order. Nobody can come here and “make stuff up” that is not correct, but this is a debating chamber, and there are opinions on both sides of the House. I would be the first to say that, if this is a matter of fact, I am concerned that a matter of fact should be properly represented in this Chamber—[Interruption.] Order!
      ……….

      Now imagine this exchange if the SNP were simply inventing shi*t up…..

    150. Gfaetheblock says:

      Ledgerwood, essexexile, jfngw, et al:

      Mass resignations can happen, effectively you take the job that disqualifies you from being an MP for five minutes, resign, let the next person do the same, repeat another 33 times. 15 NI MPs did this back in the day.

      But that is irrelevant as it would look terrible (needless cost and distraction of by-elections at time of constitutional crisis) and I can’t see 35 MPs giving up their jobs with no redundancy, esp those in the super marginals (eg NE Fife)

    151. Breeks says:


      jfngw says:
      18 December, 2018 at 6:58 pm

      ….Rees-Mogg is now very content with May as PM, I think this informs us of her direction, of course she lies a lot so maybe he is being duped…

      I reckon Rees-Mogg’s coat is hanging on a shoogly peg after he and his ERG chums failed to unseat Theresa May with the vote of no confidence, and failed to replace her with Boris. Rees-Mogg was left needing a wee cuddle from his nanny.


      Robert Peffers says:
      18 December, 2018 at 6:29 pm

      ….The SNP parliamentary group has this afternoon just stated that if Scotland is pulled out of the EU against the will of the legally sovereign people of Scotland that they will claim their human right of independence to govern themselves.

      That sounds encouraging, although we can be sure it won’t see the light of day on the propaganda channels, but I wish, I really do wish, that I could find the same solace in this as you do. “IF Scotland is pulled out the EU?”… So what, we have no strategy to prevent us being pulled out??? It’s too little. It’s too late.

      Why, oh why, oh why, do they not exercise that same right of self determination BEFORE the catastrophe of Brexit is dropped upon our heads? We HAVE the Constitutional provenance. We HAVE the democratic mandate. We HAVE the provocation. We HAVE the imperilment of our interests. We HAVE the democratic deficit. We HAVE active subjugation already in progress. We suffer interference and manipulation of our organic political discourse on a DAILY basis through the broadcasting monopoly of British propaganda.

      The ECJ has said categorically that revocation of Article 50 is the prerogative of the sovereign party which submitted the notification. So cite the Claim of Right, our Sovereign determination to stay in Europe as grounds to declare May’s Article 50 Notification Ultra Viraes, an action beyond her legitimate capacity, and present Westminster with a gift wrapped present of a Scottish Constitutional Backstop that is so restrictive on Westminster’s options that it will make Northern Ireland’s Backstop look petty.

      It was Scots Law which brought the case to the ECJ, so we are half way towards sovereign recognition and established legal personality already!!! How can we be so close and turn away???

      I’m sorry Robert, truly I am, but far from a wee tap in to close the deal, I don’t even know if the SNP can even see the deal. – where are we going with a people’s vote??? What on earth will that do for Scotland? It’s the same forlorn distraction as a cherry picked soft Brexit for Scotland. It’s not the fight we need to be having.

      Month, after month, after month of exasperating prevarication, and suddenly we’re off at the gallop for another Brexit Referendum that could jeopardise the coast to coast Remain vote which Scotland delivered in 2016? Why? Hands up. I’m lost. I just don’t get what the fk is going on.

    152. cynicalHighlander says:

      Kenno no it is your own inbuilt bigotry telling you that .

    153. cearc says:

      Hahaha, 500K quid for customs. Well i guess it will be enough for a few huts, then they will just need land to put them on, upgraded road systems and trained staff. Yep, I’m sure 500K and a few weeks will be ample.

      In contrast, the Nederlandse Government started a drive to recruit and train 1,000 new custom officers 18mths ago. All the logistical plannning for ports and airports has been done, ready to switch.

    154. jfngw says:

      @Essexexile

      The DUP are in a different position, when you have them by the b**** their hearts and minds will follow. The Tories will punish the DUP some time in the future if they don’t support them, Tories have long memories and hold even bigger grudges.

    155. Gary says:

      This guy’s stupidity is OUTSTANDING!!

      He actually ASKED for this interview and yet HADN’T prepared for it whatever. He thinks he is intelligent but his points seem to boil down to ‘No it’s not’ when asked anything awkward.

      I have personally been to a foodbank after the breakdown of my marriage left me homeless and with £5 in my pocket to last me 10 days for food, electric and gas (I’d JUST gotten a scatter flat) They have me food to last seven days and not luxury items of food either. You wouldn’t CHOOSE any of this stuff if you had a choice but beggars can’t be choosers and THAT is exactly how you feel – like a beggar. Despite the staff being helpful and lovely people, the government put me in a position where I had to go and beg for food.

      I’ve paid my tax and NI all my life until chronic illness hit me – I’m not a scrounger. But the government thinks I am and treats me as such.

      People like Whittle aren’t just PART of the problem, they ARE the problem…

    156. Robert Peffers says:

      @call me dave says: 18 December, 2018 at 7:32 pm:

      ” … What would Scots or NI Irish who voted Remain think about that?”

      The answer has already been given, in the Westminster debating chamber by Ian Blackford and other SNP MPs. You will find it in the reference geeo so kindly posted upthread for Hansard.

      Ian Blackford stated in parliament that the SNP will certainly claim the right of self determination for Scotland if the Westminster parliament attempts to drag Scotland out of the EU.

      i.e. Scotland will claim the end of the United Kingdom and will govern herself.

      Note that if the Kingdom of Scotland leaves the two kingdom United Kingdom the United Kingdom is ended. There cannot be a united kingdom when what remains is the three country Kingdom of England that signed the Treaty of Union.

      You will need to read it to understand the many nuances in the statement, (which have probably sailed over many MPs heads).

      Contained in Ian’s statement are such things as the Union NOT being a union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and a reference to the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty.

      I’ve been touting this scenario almost all my life but now it is being expressed in the, (cough!), Mother of Parliaments itself.

      Let me put it this way – now Westminster cannot ever again say it hasn’t been warned.

      Furthermore, I cannot believe Ian would make such a speech if it were not SNP accepted policy agreed by the party hierarchy.

      Never forget that the SNP is loaded with lawyers. For example Joanne Cherry is a Queen’s Council:-

      https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/joanna-cherry/4419

    157. Thepnr says:

      @Kenno

      In 2014 the Proclaimers re-released that song and included the words,,,

      “England No More”.

      No they didn’t, you just made that up didn’t you?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_America_(song)

    158. Capella says:

      Kenno at 5.49 – stop that. I asked you politely yesterday. Do not pollute this site with racist comments.

    159. Thepnr says:

      @Gary

      Well said and you hit the nail on the head. Politicians like Whittle ARE the problem.

    160. Essexexile says:

      jfngw
      How to use the 35?
      They are an asset that needs to be made to work (politically) for Scotland in this mess.
      Resolutely turning up en masse for all the relevant debates and being dismissed and ridiculed by porcine featured Tories ain’t really getting much done.
      Surely, they can be used to some high profile effect so the FM doesn’t have to break cover and call indyref2 (which she doesn’t want to do in case there’s a GE).

    161. jfngw says:

      I heard Corbyn say he was going to force a vote before Xmas, when is this pre-Xmas vote taking place? Or was he talking about Strictly, I suspect he’s a fan (military two step his favourite I think).

    162. Dr Jim says:

      It’s a funny kind of democracy that gives politicians the right to lie and abuse and get away with it as long as they do it inside a protected from the law arena

      If you buy a box of 20 chocolates but on opening the box find 2 missing you would have the right of redress in the courts under the trade description act

      A politician costs considerably more than a box of chocolates and takes a solemn vow to serve yet is allowed to sell (not points of view) but outright deceit and dishonesty and even delve into the realms of public order offences and still be found not guilty as long as the dishonesty applies to lies told about what’s considered political

      When Scotland becomes Independent I hope we will see an end to this Uganda style Mugabe untouchable demagoguery approach and do our best to bring about honesty laws in public life

      With consequences for those who transgress

    163. Legerwood says:

      Gfaetheblock @
      18 December, 2018 at 8:20 pm
      essexexile, jfngw, et al:
      This is the procedure for ‘moving the writ’ to bring about a by-election and, importantly, the timing of the by-election which was the second point I made in reply to the suggestion of a mass resignation of SNP MPs. It can take up to 3 months for the writ to be moved then a further 3 weeks or so to the actual by-election.

      Here are the relevant sections from the UK Parliament’s we site
      “”Traditionally the Chief Whip of the political party whose MP held the vacant seat will begin the procedure for a by-election.

      This is known as ‘moving the Writ’ and takes the form of a motion moved in the House of Commons Chamber “that the Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the constituency of …. in the room of ….”.

      The Speaker puts the question to the House for MPs to decide whether or not to agree to the motion.

      “If the motion is agreed it becomes an Order for the Speaker to issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown who then sends the writ to the relevant Returning Officer.

      “What is the timetable for by-elections?
      A new Writ is usually moved within three months of the vacancy occurring. There have been a few instances of seats remaining vacant longer than six months before a by-election was called. Seats have also been left vacant towards the end of a Parliament to be filled at the general election.

      If there are several vacant seats a number of by-elections can take place on the same day.

      The by-election timetable is between 21 and 27 working days from the issuing of the writ. The House of Commons Library have produced a briefing paper giving background information and a model by-election timetable.””

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @Essexexile says: 18 December, 2018 at 7:34 pm:

      ” … Thinking through the outcome of all 35 SNP MPs resigning and then campaigning on a plain and simple ‘no Brexit for Scotland with indyref2 promised if it is forced on us’.”

      Why on earth would the SNP MPs resign? There is no need for them to do so.

      The current sitting SNP members of the Westminster Parliament have just made clear statements in the debating chamber as reported in Hansard for today.

      If the Westminster Parliament tries to drag Scotland out of the EU against the will of the legally sovereign people of Scotland’s the SNP will invoke, “The Scottish Claim of Right”.

      That Claim Of Right has been in existence before there was a United Kingdom and has been ratified several times since.

      As stated in Hansard MP Ian Blackford even mentions that the Westminster Government did not contest the recent Supreme Court case where that Claim of Right was made as part of other legal concepts.

      There are international Human Rights laws and the ECJ and United Nations have the right of easily identifiable peoples to self determination as basic concepts written into their Human Rights Laws.

      As the United Kingdom is signed up to both the EU Treaty and are founder members of the United Nations they are party to those Human Rights laws. In fact they are part of United Kingdom Law too. They will have a hard job defending NOT allowing Scotland self determination if Scotland formally claims it.

      Now these human rights laws have been kicking around for a long time so there is nothing new about the concept and I’ll stick my neck out and opine that the delay in the SNP not outwardly making such claims until now would be because the Scottish Government/SNP/Nicola Sturgeon have been quietly talking to the EU, ECJ, UN and other World leaders about the concept for some time now.

      Thus, now that the EU is not best pleased with Westminster and the POTUS has said he is not too keen on the way Theresa has been conducting things then the time is right to bring the matter to the fore.

      What better reason than BR UKexit to do so?

      To me today’s happenings at Westminster is the fireing of the Independence Starting pistol.

      After all it will be hard for the SNP parliamentary group to back away from what they claimed today in parliament.

    165. Iain mhor says:

      The Proclaimers did what and what now?
      In a song about exile from Scotland..
      Bwahahahhahaaha!

    166. Iain mhor says:

      Oh dear, sorry I wasn’t finished…
      Bwahahhahahhahha!

    167. jfngw says:

      @Breeks

      I actually believe the SNP do not want to see the rest of the UK outside the EU with no deal. In this situation we can walk away, but it will have an negative effect on us, anybody who thinks it won’t is, in my opinion, deluding themselves.

      I was always against supporting the second EU vote for a number of reasons. I can only hope my fears on this are wrong and the SNP have not made a tactical mistake. I’ll just need to wait to see how it pans out, but if our choice to remain in the EU is not respected there is going to be a lot of disgruntled people in Scotland.

    168. Cubby says:

      What would the Britnats love the most at Westminster – to see the back of the SNP MPs – At least for a while at a critical time. Essexexile is A Britnat who knows fine well what he is proposing is a dead end and would damage the cause of independence at a critical time.

      He is a sneaky Britnat who is trying hard to get his Xmas bonus but is getting agitated because he has been rumbled.

      I would recommend watching the EU withdrawal agreement debate in HofCommons today.

      Mr Peffers has already made some excellent points on what occurred. I would add that Blackford also said that the time for arguing from an SNP perspective for a compromise of single market/ customs union out of the EU has now passed. That ship has sailed.

    169. Essexexile says:

      Legerwood and Robert Peffers
      Furry muff. Good points, well made. I’ll certainly accept the argument that it would take too long, although that might beg the question why it wasn’t done when there was time and when Scotland was being blatantly shut out of Brexit negotiations?
      And, again fair enough if the SNP are building up to a legally watertight withdrawal from the UK in the event of Brexit but according to Breeks (who appears to thoroughly know his shit) they have more than enough to do the job already.

    170. Essexexile says:

      Oh, and Cubby. It’s called Persecutory Delusional Disorder. Google it. You’re welcome.

    171. Robert Kerr says:

      Come on people.

      Mr Peffers has made a striking posting re the putative starting gun for our independence end game.

      Yet there are puerile posts regarding words of a song.

    172. Artyhetty says:

      There’s a certain level of ignorance with these troughers for sure, but they are not particularly stupid, they are though, lacking in any empathy, and so self assured that they would do anything, for their masters, no matter how evil.

      They are jobs worths who take a massive wage from the public purse and actually believe they are entitled to it.

      I haven’t read the whole of what this nasty little s**t has written, but the fact he is feeling emboldened enough to say it, and it to appear in print, is extremely concerning.

      The Britnats are emboldened because of Brexit, they are not budging, not blinking, they have some nasty f**kg plotting up their dirty corrupt as hell sleeves. Especially when it comes to Scotland, it’s really worrying.

      Yes they are raging at support for the SNP not wavering no matter how they try to make sure of that, and a bit worried about support for independence on the rise, but still they carry on, blatant, aggressive, arrogant, bullying, the world is watching and they don’t give a s**t!

      They have friends in dodgy places, dark money etc, Scotland is in great peril.

    173. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@9.48pm

      Most Britnats go for verbal abuse ,then mentally disturbed, then racist. You got them in the wrong order. Best read your Britnat manual again.

      Stop posting Britnat crap. It’s simple. Try being unique a Britnat on Wings who does not post sneaky anti independence posts.

      Independence is normal and Scotland will soon be a normal country. Assisting in subjugating another country in order to steal its resources by people like you is despicable.

    174. jfngw says:

      Looks like Neil Findlay is happy to stay on his knees when the SNP complain about shouted abuse at Westminster. He’s sees the SNP as being the problem.

      Bit of useful advice if you want the gown Mr Findlay, to please your masters you need to get a bit lower when genuflecting and a slight tug of the forelock affirms their superiority,

    175. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@8.15pm

      ” Look what the DUP have achieved for themselves with 10 MPs. Or the UKIP did with just 1.”

      The words of a Britnat admiring the work of other Britnats.

    176. Essexexile says:

      Cubby,
      Ask yourself, or indeed let’s ask anyone else on here (if we could trouble them for a moment), if you’re heartfelt conviction that I’m some sort of elaborate Unionist plant whose mission is to bring down Wings over Scotland and the whole independence movement is credible.
      Or, if I’m just a normal bloke with a wife,two kids and a mortgage who hails from Edinburgh but had to move to Chemsford (yes, I’m sorry, in Essex) to further his career, and who, despite an upbringing grounded in solid British ideals has recently found himself questioning the future relationship of his country of birth with rUk and has increasing sympathy for the Scottish nationalist cause.
      Being quite new to the forum, I’m still trying to find my feet and it’s inevitable in an environment where passions are raised that I may tread on a few toes occasionally.
      Everything I read about Wings and the wider movement projects itself as a welcoming, inclusive movement.
      So, let’s reset, shake hands and move forward together eh?

    177. Meg merrilees says:

      Article in the Mirror discussing a ‘Managed No Deal’ – trying to build a consensus for this way forward – big problem, the EU has already dismissed that. In much the same way as Norway has politely said they can’t consider Norway plus because they’ll spoil it for Norway.

    178. dakk says:

      RT reporting SNP table VONC

    179. Sarah says:

      Motion of no confidence in government has been made this evening – by SNP, Plaid, Green and LibDems. Will the Speaker accept it? What will Government do now?

      Fingers crossed.

    180. Shug says:

      Given labour and conservative are likely to stand one joint candidate in key co constituencies with a view to displacing snp candidates the snp members must be ready to stand paper unionist candidatea under banners such as scottish labour or conservative toaddress the unionist plan. Members should think and plan ahead now

    181. Cubby says:

      Breeks@8.25pm

      “Cherry picked soft Brexit” Blackford said today in HofCommons that any compromise has now gone – the soft Brexit ship has sailed as far as SNP is concerned.

      “I’m lost. I just don’t get what the fk is going on”. Yes and neither do the Britnats and it is driving them mad. Why tell your enemy your plan? Keep them guessing.

    182. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Apparently, that fat oaf Nicholas Soames’ disgraceful heckling of Ian Blackford in the HoC today is not news to BBC Shortbread.

      Mustn’t make our imperial masters look petty and boorish,must we.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      Oooft, Mike Russell taking no prisoners when it comes to May & Co. STV News.

    184. North chiel says:

      Wow Mike Russell giving it “ both barrels” tonight on Scotland tonight ( Colin Mackay interview), looks like finally that “ the gloves are coming off” , at tomorrow’s joint ministerial meeting !

    185. Lenny Hartley says:

      Its obviously fake news that SNP and others have put in Motion of no confidence in Uk govt, Misreporting Scotland not mentioned it so cant be true ???

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, 9 days is a long time and a lot can happen. Fasten your seatbelts!

      But Christmas is a special time, family and that, and there’s no effing way I’m going door-knocking on Christmas Day, no way Jose.

    187. yesindyref2 says:

      Mike Russell tells Engurlard to take a hike.

      Fuck off, he laid into the UK Government, NOT England you racist tosser.

    188. frogesque says:

      I’m quite prepared to take reasoned criticism and offer a hand of friendship to essexexile.

      We need all the friends we can make and any comments from outwith the Scottish bubble provide insight.

      Likewise, nothing on Wings is ever taken at face value and will be analysed. And so it should be.

      However. Cold repetitive gravel from a certain quarter just becomes a pain in the kidney. Very unpleasant as I have visited it!

    189. Dan Huil says:

      Things heating up.

    190. Hamerdoon says:

      Hi Robert Peffers – I’d like to pick your brains on a discussion I’ve been having – hope that’s ok?

      You stated – “Note that if the Kingdom of Scotland leaves the two kingdom United Kingdom the United Kingdom is ended. There cannot be a united kingdom when what remains is the three country Kingdom of England that signed the Treaty of Union.”

      This above has been my view for many years and I just didn’t get the idea of referring to rUK post independence as being very helpful to our cause. However, in a recent discussion, the issue of the new Acts of Union with Ireland (1800) and subsequently, NI (1949?) arose. My colleague argued that those Acts effectively meant that Scotland would leave ‘the Union’ and not dissolve it.

      Can you shed some light on this for me – do these 1800 acts of parliament etc. mean Scotland would not dissolve the Union, but leave the Union?

      This from Wikipedia
      “The Acts of Union 1800 (sometimes erroneously referred to as a single Act of Union 1801) were parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland (previously in personal union) to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The acts came into force on 1 January 1801, and the merged Parliament of the United Kingdom had its first meeting on 22 January 1801.

      Both acts remain in force, with amendments, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,[2] and have been repealed in the Republic of Ireland.[3]”

      Be grateful for your thoughts on this.

      many thanks

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      Time for Kenno to go the same way as the other agents provocatuers who’ve been flooding Wings – fuck off and join your alter ego Danny.

    192. Kenno says:

      Mike Russell gives the English a swift boot in the chuckies and reminds them of who is the boss.

      Go Mike !!!

    193. Michael Cameron says:

      Whittle’s face when Alan Brown MP beat him in a charity race in Kilmarnock was almost as funny as these comments are daft.

      Not the sharpest knife.

    194. robertknight says:

      Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party – home for the Galactically Stupid.

    195. mike cassidy says:

      You can catch up with Mike two-barrels Russell on stv+1 at 11.30

    196. Phronesis says:

      An interlocutor whose words have only ‘limited validity and authority’. What is said by WM and what is meant are completely disconnected. Usually there is a connection between ‘saying’ and ‘meaning’ when the truth depends on the accuracy of a statement’s reflection of facts in the real world. Where there is an obvious disconnect from the truth of the consequences of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit then untrue statements are generally known as lies.

      ‘The embarrassing European Council last week was a reminder to the Prime Minister that her colleagues recognise and are increasingly irritated by the fact that she is their only possible British interlocutor, but she is an interlocutor whose words have only limited validity and authority…Any delay beyond March 2019 that cast doubt over any Brexit at all would presage the immediate end of the May premiership and the unleashing of Conservative civil war beyond even that witnessed until now…Conservative backbenchers are united on only one topic, which is that of the undesirability of installing Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street…The historical irony would be complete if the final consequence of the Cameronian referendum in 2016 were to destroy by another referendum in 2019 the Conservative Party completely’

      http://fedtrust.co.uk/brexit-a-national-government-or-no-deal/
      There is a coda to the end paragraph- ‘and restore Scotland’s independent nation status’.

    197. dakk says:

      RT has removed the ticker about VONC. Hold.

    198. Bob Mack says:

      The only athlete who took a wrong turn on the second lap of the field.
      Untalented at so many things was Mr Whittle.

    199. Proud Cybernat says:

      Kenno – look. It’s not going to work. You’re wasting your time here because WoS does not welcome racists. We just laugh at these attempts to tarnish WoS. Run along now.

    200. mike cassidy says:

      Euroref2 has already started.

      Nobody told me!

      http://archive.is/zfoQz

    201. Kenno says:

      Just going to watch Mike Russell lay into the EnglisH,,,go easy on them Mike

    202. Morgatron says:

      Whittles got a barnett like a soggy wheatabix. He is a fascist, thick as mince trougher. The list and current PR system requires to be dismantled to rid ourselves and Scotland of such poor quality political representation & shitty sport people,though i suppose where would we get our fun from?

    203. Bill Hume says:

      I think what we need is another independence party to hoover up the list votes.
      It could be called almost anything but I rather favour the Scotland First party (but I’m open to suggestions).
      It only needs one manifesto commitment.
      We promise to support the SNP……always.
      Let’s make the list vote work for us, rather than against us.

    204. mike cassidy says:

      Well.

      The trolls must be disappointed that the two barrels were not directed at the ‘English’.

      Only May’s government.

    205. Cubby says:

      Essexexile@10.26pm

      “Bring down Wings and whole independence movement”. I do not give you that much credit I’m afraid.

      If you are a genuine independence supporter why do you not learn from your posts? Not once have you asked why I think your posts are anti independence. It may well be that you do not see how they can be interpreted as such. But if you just keep on posting stuff that is not acceptable but make no attempt to learn why – What is a reasonable conclusion to be drawn? Especially when your replies have been, let’s say, less than pleasant.

      I too have moved to England in the past to further my career – a son was born in England so your racist comment was not well recd. Too many Scots have to move to England because all the money and jobs are kept down south. A problem for N. England and Wales as well. So where you live is irrelevant to me. It’s what you post. I suggest you read over your posts before submitting and think does this assist the Britnats or independence. If you are for independence then surely you would not want to post comments that assist the Britnats ( not unionists – there is not anything like a Union in practice in the UK).

      I also have lived in auld reekie in the past but I am a Weegie.

      If you post on Wings you have to expect people to correct you if they have a different opinion. It’s never personal with me until someone makes it personal by their reply.

      With regards to your unionist plant comment there have been and are phoney independence supporters on Wings. Some are no doubt paid, others not, some are better than others at deception. Time will tell if you are genuine. For example your post about SNP MPs resigning en masse has been covered in the past on Wings and seen to be a dead end.

      Hopefully Mr Angry has gone for good. I much prefer Mr Reasonable.

    206. robertknight says:

      77th BDE been busy again…

      “Mew batch of ‘Integrity Initiative’ leaks reveal military ties & effort to infiltrate European media”. (A certain Mr Leask gets a mention in relation to Scotland).

      https://www.rt.com/rtmobile/news/latest/446809/html/

    207. Thepnr says:

      People who push an anti English agenda play right into the hands of our opponents who rub their hands with glee that they could expose such a thing.

      They really are that desperate that they will cling to any straw.

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    208. Hamish100 says:

      Kenno says:
      18 December, 2018 at 11:32 pm
      Just going to watch Mike Russell lay into the EnglisH,,,go easy on them Mike

      Mike Russell was born in England

      Kenno the troll – you ain’t very good

    209. Famous15 says:

      Sneaky anti English comments to try to get the site labelled racist.

      The #enemy# is not the English.

    210. jfngw says:

      Just caught the end of Mike Russell on STV, wished I had seen it all. Then on came McTernan, decided to flip to Newsnight and there is McTernan, is he omni-present, a go to commentator. Although from what I’ve read I believe I can safely ignore any of his predictions.

    211. Thepnr says:

      Wrong link, try this. Ian Smart proving he’s anything but.

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1075176707106189319

    212. Kenno says:

      Watch London slide right into the Thames after their glorious failure of Brexit finally kicks in.

      Will we shed a tear???

      Will we fuck !!!

      We will rejoice .

      Party time !!!

    213. geeo says:

      Apparently Sky News didn’t get the memo about the SNP/PC/GREENS VONC challenge to labour.

      No yellow “BREAKING NEWS” ticker on Sky News….how odd !

    214. jfngw says:

      Just noticed a programme on STV tomorrow, an hour long homage to another countries football team. STV the channel that has no Scottish sport content, that readily comes to my mind anyway.

    215. Dr Jim says:

      My Mum was an English Tory all her life moved to Scotland with my Edinburgh Dad after the war had four sons and a daughter then we had children who have had children and now we even have great grandchildren and every one of us is a SNP member except for the tiny ones that is

      But at a rough guess we’re over 50 strong SNP people from 1 dyed in the wool Tory English Mum so on the whole My English Tory Mum did pretty well for Scotland didn’t she

      Who says there aren’t benefits to folk coming to Scotland
      Sometimes a wee bit of thinking before yelling hatred and fear just like Farage would be in order

      You’re allowed not to like people that’s freedom of choice but you’re not allowed to be anti people without reason, that’s racist bigoted and xenophobic

      I don’t like blue cars but I don’t kick their doors in or want them removed from the road, I just wouldn’t buy one

      See how that freedom of choice thing works

    216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @:04:

      Also it is one person one vote, none of this splitting your vote nonsense.

      Absolutely. No-one, absolutely no-one, has any clear idea of the purpose or effect of the “second vote”. Probably by intention. It’s only “usefulness”, if it can be so characterised, is as a further obstacle to the SNP.

      jfngw @ 19:32:

      I also have an issue with the STV system in council by [sic] elections, it appears to me that gives some people multiple votes, a sort of, …

      It doesn’t really (at least unless you really insist on seeing it that way). By design, it prevents a wasted vote, of the kind that we see only too often on FPTP elections, where (except for a very few privileged places) most voters’ choices are rendered ineffective, including those who vote for the winner. It allows people to vote first of all directly according to their preference, knowing that if this choice is relatively unsupported by others, their opinion can still have an effect by transferring to their next best choice. Those whose first choice is backed by many others can’t complain, because their preferences are being counted already. It gives every voter a say right up to the point where everyone is elected, but no-one’s vote ultimately counts more than once. That’s democracy in action, fair-and-square. What’s not to like?

      It is also too complex for most people to understand the result was arrived at (not sure I even do).

      True, but irrelevant. Ordinary folks don’t give a toss about how it’s done, that’s only for electoral nerds like us. The interface for them is dead simple and easy to comprehend: “just rank candidates in order of preference, as many or as few as you like”. If the practical consequences of that are opaque, so what? Elections should not be about trying to “game” a result, they should be about reflecting popular opinion unvarnished.

      If people in Ireland can do this without too much difficulty, how could it possibly be a problem for us here? Only because the Irish have had practice, whereas people here (as lumilumi correctly observes) have been wedded (=indoctrinated) for far too long to an antiquated 18th-century system designed to keep power in the hands of a cosy little cabal of the privileged few.

    217. Dr Jim says:

      Ian Smart wading in with his racist bigoted remarks about the FM hating English people again to distract from his own party, somebody correct me if I’m wrong but like my own background is the FMs granny not from Northumberland or somewhere like that

      The only thing the FM hates is Tory policy on Scotland

    218. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      Nicola Sturgeons granny on her dads side is from Sunderland.

    219. Meg merrilees says:

      Seems it’s not just the Brexitish MSM that are misreporting stories…

      https://www.rt.com/news/446613-france3-macron-yellow-vests/?fbclid=IwAR2wb-T1INlp7dConmJG-g12AEvCmsj0Q7xthHc9lwAnCVV1yxkwTWezjrg

      here is an example of French TV airbrushing a protestors sign which should say ‘Macron resign’ but on the TV broadcast ‘resign’ has been airbrushed out! French TV said it must have been done ‘by mistake’ Aye, right!

    220. Capella says:

      @ Kenno – if you don’t stop peddling racist comments then I will ask Stu to take action. Others may do the same.

    221. geeo

      No mention of the amendment to Corbyn’s motion especially not of who lodged the amendment.

      But funnily enough, on BBCR4 this evening, ‘Today in Parliament’ they did broadcast snippets of Ian Blackford speaking but they didn’t broadcast the arrogant, insulting, offensive Nicholas Soames and his crass remark;
      they didn’t mention the SNP politician saying that if Scotland was dragged out against her will there will be an Indy ref2;
      they posted pointless stuff including the fact that unpaid student loans in England now top several billion pounds and by some years hence ( 2025? can’t remember) could reach £400 billon+

      Do you think they could be playing silly political games?

    222. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, Blackford in the HoC (from Herald) in the EU Withdrawal debate, putting together the quotes:

      We will work constructively across party to try and save the UK from Brexit.

      When we get to the end of that process, if there is an economic threat to jobs and prosperity in Scotland, then it is very clear that the Scottish Parliament has a mandate to call an independence referendum.

      There is a majority in the Scottish Parliament to hold such a referendum. Just a few months ago, this House voted to accept the claim of right for Scotland.

      If the Scottish Parliament comes forward with a request for a Section 30 Authority then this House must allow the people of Scotland to determine their own future.

      Here we have a parliament in London silenced by this government and the devolved administrations silenced and ignored.

      With that and other SNP MPs, and Russell on STV (though they thought ocean plastic was way more important) and Sturgeon at the JMC tomorrow (today), it seems to be all kicking off. Just in time for the turkey (UK) to get stuffed maybe. Pass the Brussels!

      Someone got a lawnmower from B&Q and cut the long grass.

    223. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Peffers says: 18 December, 2018 at 6:29 pm:

      ” … That sounds encouraging, although we can be sure it won’t see the light of day on the propaganda channels, but I wish, I really do wish, that I could find the same solace in this as you do.”

      Dear! Oh! Dear! There will always be some Jeremiah, (or six), here on Wings if there is the slightest signs of any progress. Which is why I’m commenting a lot less on Wings than previously. There’s more on here running down the Nicola, The SG and the SNP than there is in the Scotsman comments section.

      Of course it won’t feature highly in the SMSM and the Westminster owned or controlled broadcast medium. Which is exactly why it comes via the House of Commons and thus gets recorded word for word in Hansard.

      ” … “IF Scotland is pulled out the EU?”… So what, we have no strategy to prevent us being pulled out??? It’s too little. It’s too late.”

      Awa an bile yer heid. So the SG has probably been talking to the EC, (The EU Civil Service), and the EU office holders not to mention the various 27 Member State hecht heid ains for months. All of whom will have very good reasons to support them. Never forget that if the Westminster takes the United Kingdom out of Europe it hurts the European Union and thus every remaining member state. Not nearly as much as it will hurt the United Kingdom but a hurt none the less.

      ” … Why, oh why, oh why, do they not exercise that same right of self determination BEFORE the catastrophe of Brexit is dropped upon our heads?”

      Well no one needs to be a genius to figure THAT one out. Simply because they need to carry a majority of the electorate along with them. They cannot do it without the legally sovereign people of Scotland because the people, not the SG are legally sovereign.

      On matters such as the constitution the sovereign authority is the people and that particular lesson was learned the hard way when Alex Salmond tried it on his say so but without the mandate of the people of Scotland.

      ” … We HAVE the Constitutional provenance. We HAVE the democratic mandate. We HAVE the provocation. We HAVE the imperilment of our interests. We HAVE the democratic deficit. We HAVE active subjugation already in progress. We suffer interference and manipulation of our organic political discourse on a DAILY basis through the broadcasting monopoly of British propaganda.”

      Well, “we”, have all that – with the exception that, “we”, do not have a democratic mandate from the legally sovereign people to go to the ECJ and/or the United Nations and claim their help/ruling for self determination. What the SG has is a mandate to hold a second referendum to gain the people’s mandate for declaring the Union is over.

      ” … The ECJ has said categorically that revocation of Article 50 is the prerogative of the sovereign party which submitted the notification.”

      Indeed but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the termination of the Treaty of Union which the EU has nothing to do with excepting as acting rather like a referee.

      There are only two member kingdoms in the United Kingdom and the matter of ending the Treaty of Union is their business and no one else’s unless both kingdom partners in the United Kingdom agree to it.

      In the first place, (as I’ve been telling it here on Wings for what seems like forever), is that when it comes down to the nitty gritty the negotiations will not be between the Kingdom of Scotland Parliament and the Kingdom of England Parliament because Westminster IS NOT the Kingdom of England Parliament it is the Union Parliament and there has been no Parliament of England, (country or kingdom), since 30 April 1707.

      ” … So cite the Claim of Right, our Sovereign determination to stay in Europe as grounds to declare May’s Article 50 Notification Ultra Viraes, an action beyond her legitimate capacity, and present Westminster with a gift wrapped present of a Scottish Constitutional Backstop that is so restrictive on Westminster’s options that it will make Northern Ireland’s Backstop look petty.”

      Why would any sane person or government do that? That would be as insane as the Tory Party’s insanity.

      The Scottish Government, with a mandate to do so from the sovereign people of Scotland, (The Kingdom of). simply declare that the Union between the two kingdom ends on a certain date to be negotiated with the Kingdom of England Parliament, (Which has not existed for 311 years), and correctly refuses to recognise Westminster as the Parliament of The Kingdom of England.

      Now here’s the big joke – It is the Queen of England that is legally sovereign under English law but as she is also the legal protector of the 1people of Scotland’s sovereignty she cannot negotiate for both sides as she has vested interests in both kingdoms and would be arguing against herself.

      This is where such as the ECJ and United Nations comes in. The SG requests they rule on the matter and neither can deny that the people of Scotland are an easily recognised nation and thus comply with the basic rules to qualify for their support as a self determining country/kingdom or even culture.

      ” … It was Scots Law which brought the case to the ECJ, so we are half way towards sovereign recognition and established legal personality already!!! How can we be so close and turn away???”

      Because we will not be turning away – it really is as simple as that.

      ” … I’m sorry Robert, truly I am, but far from a wee tap in to close the deal, I don’t even know if the SNP can even see the deal. – where are we going with a people’s vote??? What on earth will that do for Scotland? It’s the same forlorn distraction as a cherry picked soft Brexit for Scotland. It’s not the fight we need to be having.”

      It is exactly the fight we should be having. You are simply accepting as correct the Westminster 311 years of brainwashing that Westminster is the properly elected parliament of the three country Kingdom of England

      Westminster ceased to be the parliament of the Kingdom of England on the 30 April 1707. It says so in the Hansard records of that day.

      Westminster has never been the Kingdom of England Parliament since it sat and legally put itself into permanent recess

      It is the bipartite United Kingdom Parliament and has never treated the Kingdom of Scotland as a partner kingdom but as a subjugated country ruled over by England.

      ” … Month, after month, after month of exasperating prevarication, and suddenly we’re off at the gallop for another Brexit Referendum that could jeopardise the coast to coast Remain vote which Scotland delivered in 2016? Why? Hands up. I’m lost. I just don’t get what the fk is going on.”

      Rubbish! In the first place the very term, “BREXIT”, is a pure and simple lie. Westminster is not the parliament of Britain and it never has been. It only is the parliament of the United Kingdom and there are four other parts of Britain that are independent from Westminster.

      The Republic of Ireland, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not under Westminster rule. The three Crown Protectorates are parts of Her Majesty’s own personal United Kingdom but not parts of her Majesty’s United Kingdom Parliament.

      Even the name the Tories gave their lunacy plan is a total lie and you, apparently, fell for much of their lies.

      The Scottish Government simply declares that the United Kingdom has disunited and it will be up to Westminster to try and say it isn’t. The simple answer to that is that Westminster was the Union Parliament and cannot speak for the English Parliament as no such parliament exists and every MP that was in it was elected as a bipartite United Kingdom member.

      Now think on this Winston Spencer Churchill was, for a time, a United Kingdom Member for a Dundee constituency and Kier Hardie was elected, at different times, to a Welsh and an English Constituency.

      Westminster ceased to be the Parliament of England in 1707.

    224. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      I don’t think Kenno can believe its luck, it’s been doing it non-stop. There’s a few others been doing it for days as well, maybe getting on for a dozen trolls now.

      Either Rev isn’t paying attention, or he’s letting them get on with it to wake people up – there are agents provocateurs about, WAKE UP AND PAY ATTENTION WINGERS

    225. Yes indy ref 2

      It’s all heating up nicely.

      Full marks to those who thought of debating the Claim of Right, as recorded in Hansard, earlier this year – a master-stroke!

      Oh! that man Blackford, why can’t he just sit down and stop wittering, Good Lord man, why don’t you just go home for Christmas like a good boy.

      They haven’t seen the tsunami heading straight towards them…

    226. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “Indeed but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the termination of the Treaty of Union which the EU has nothing to do with excepting as acting rather like a referee.

      Not quite. If the Treaty of Union is terminated then the UK can’t meet the terms of Article 50 where it says “1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.“.

      So in that case, even if disputed, the EU is very much involved.

      Basically speaking, if the Scottish Government refuses to play ball with Brexit the UK Gov is screwed. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    227. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      I don’t think any of it has been coincidental or random.

    228. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 00:52,

      As opposed to RT’s fatherland Russia, Meg, where anyone who dares to stand up to Putin gets airbrushed out. Permanently,

    229. Yesindyref2

      Had to laugh today. Read something recently, decrying the SNP tactics and lamenting the seeming inaction from the Sottish government. Then the author crowned it all by saying that ‘he was no tactician’ – EXACTLY!!!

      We have to stay alert. They’re getting really twitchy now.

    230. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      We do indeed, and do need to stamp on the rapidly multiplying trolls (or at least, names they use).

      The good thing about it there have been so many on our side running interference that the other side can’t see who’s got the ball and are firing off in all directions, while missing the real target. Or fighters with chaff.

      It’s kind of like (OT – defence) advanced warships can create decoys of themselves electronically so there appear to be 5 or 6 real images, to confuse the enemy, and it’s been going on for, ooh, years. Nearly since Indy Ref 1.

      And does it do any harm if they read my comment and wonder?

      Confusion to our enemies 🙂

      I might be double-bluffing this time …

    231. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – Stu’s guidelines are that we email him at the contact address above. He can’t possibly monitor the thread all the time. So I will do that if there is another racist comment. Racism isn’t something I’m prepared to tolerate in a blog comment thread and I’m certain most commenteers feel the same.

    232. yesindyref2 says:

      @MM
      From that non-tactician “the seeming inaction from the Scottish government”.

      Mmm, swans sailing serenely on the surface do a hell of a lot of paddling underneath 😎

    233. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 1.42
      If you’re contacting the Rev you can, if you want, and for what it’s worth, add my name as agreeing with you.
      I don’t want the man inundated with e-mails,he has enough to be doing.
      But this anti English nonsense is getting on my last nerve.
      Cactus drew fire to mitigate it the other night but the subject never changed for very long… So I totally support your stance.

    234. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers you do not need to carry a majority to win a Test Case proving Sovereignty. It is an absolute binary condition. If Scotland is sovereign, by definition, Westminster is not. Thus Westminster cannot drag Scotland out of Europe. Scotland might drag itself out of Europe, but Westminster? Never. It is not in their capacity – ever. You are merely using democracy as a comfort blanket. It is superfluous.

      And why Scotland should create its own Constitutional Backstop is to remove the responsibility for ending the Union onto Westminster, which much choose been Brexit or Scotland. If Westminster chooses Brexit, the Union is torn apart. If Westminster chooses Scotland, it is a sovereign Scotland outside the realm of Westminster’s subjugation.

      Whether it is the initiative of Holyrood or Westminster that terminates the Union doesn’t matter a jot to me, but if it is the foolhardy petulance of a Conservative and Unionist Party Government which destroys the act of Union, then the rug is pulled from under the feet of the BritNats by the very Union they revere. That’s the point where we might test Democratic opinion, not with a referendum, but a ratification plebiscite.

      Scotland secures it’s emancipation from the rotten Union full in control, and makes Westminster do all the heavy lifting and carry all responsibility. Why? For the leverage it gives Scotland in subsequent arbitration over disputes over the apportionment of UK resources. Just as the smiling President of Luxembourg reminds the UK that Brexit is their idea, not his, so too a future Scottish First Minister might shrug his or her shoulders and say “Well, it was the action Westminster which terminated the Union”. Although it was our idea, not theirs.

      Finally, our Scottish Backstop is our failsafe. Every interest of Scotland is made safe, we have the EU in our corner just as they have backed Ireland, and just as Westminster is boxed into its “take it or leave it” exit agreement over Brexit dictated by Europe, so too might Westminster be boxed into a similar “take it or leave it” settlement of the Union where the terms are dictated by Scotland.

      Win a referendum? Perish the thought.

    235. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – will do. 🙂

    236. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      Yes, you can add mine for what it’s worth!

    237. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 1.21
      I must admit that when we got Song Lyrics as evidence,I did kinda relish the desperation…. Just a tad mind ye..
      But honesty compels me.. tae say I want there!!

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      I think some can be played with (where’s Heed when you need him?). But some just need to be squashed like a bug.

      With apologies to bugs 🙂

      Oh dear, I might appear to be a bugophobe or buggist.

    239. Liam says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      19 December, 2018 at 2:05 am

      @Capella
      Yes, you can add mine for what it’s worth!

      Ditto me.

    240. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 2.40
      The redeem yersel …
      May I suggest… Buggins Turn…
      I believe it means something tae British Nationalists and describes yer POV …. Shall we say … More gently..

    241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 01:42,

      If it’s not too late, please also add my name to the list, since I had been intending to e-mail Stu over that very issue (especially after one of the usual suspects reproduced a posting of mine virtually verbatim but altered the first para to completely invert the meaning). This toxic business is beginning to look like an organised campaign, for whatever malign purpose.

      Don’t forget to include, as required, links to some of the relevant disreputable postings as evidence. There are plenty of them now, alas, on an almost daily basis whatever the article topic.

    242. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 @ RJS – will do. As yet, there has been no further racist comment. Let’s see if this continues.

    243. Capella says:

      @ Liam – will do. All quiet on the western front so far. But I will take action if necessary.

    244. Ghillie says:

      Capella, me too.

      It won’t continue for now.

      It has been called out.

      And his shift is over for now. And as with much cowardly and unacceptable behaviour, the perpetrators scurry for cover when light is shone upon them.

      The evidence is there in the thread above and many before.

      Rev Stu is wise and allowing this bigotry to run until we, the Wingers call it out, is a useful exercise in keeping us on our toes and showing ALL readers the heart of Wings AND the heart of Scotland for that matter =).

    245. Legerwood says:

      Capella

      Please add my name to the list. Thank you



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