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Wings Over Scotland

Guess who’s coming to dinner?

Posted on May 22, 2018 by

Last week we revealed that English voters would happily see Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK if it was the price of securing Brexit. But one of the odder things was that those figures included a sizeable number of Remain voters, who don’t want Brexit to happen at all.

We were a little perplexed, so we did a follow-up question asking those people if they’d elaborate a bit and got some interesting replies. One person, for example, answered “The Scottish people are very arrogant and although they want to be separate from the rest of the UK they are happy to take money from England”. Charming.

But there was also another stream of opinion on the subject, and it was revealed in the responses to another question in the original poll.

Because one of the Remain voters happy to let Scotland go also said this:

“To allow a choice – seriously thinking of moving to Scotland.”

And it turned out they were far from alone.

Because no fewer than 12% of English voters said they’d definitely consider moving to an independent Scotland that was a member of the EU, with another 11% not sure. And those might not sound like huge numbers, until you do the arithmetic.

Population of England: 53 million

12% of population of England: 6.36 million

Population of Scotland: 5.4 million

In other words, if 12% of England did choose to up sticks and head north to their new EU neighbour, it would more than double the population of Scotland overnight. Native-born Scots would become a minority in their own land. And if the other 11% who haven’t ruled the idea out joined the 12%, Scotland would rocket from a nation of 5m people to one of nearly 18 million.

(The infrastructural pressure of such an influx, of course, might be partially eased by some of Scotland’s stauncher No/Leave/UKIP/Tory/BNP/Loyalist citizens deciding to head in the other direction, much to everyone’s profound sadness.)

Now, of course, it’s highly unlikely that even the whole of the 12% group would actually emigrate. But if even as few as a quarter of them did, that would be about 1.6 million new citizens. For perspective, the Scottish population has only grown by 1 million in the last 118 years.

And when you start thinking about the colossal scale of that change, it makes treating Scotland’s current economy as any reliable indicator of an independent Scotland’s look even more ridiculous than it already is.

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  1. 23 05 18 19:05

    The English Invasion | A Wilderness of Peace

249 to “Guess who’s coming to dinner?”

  1. Kevin Cargill says:

    I’d better look out the emergency chairs now!!

  2. I’m sure there will be an equivalent number of BritNats ProudScotBut that will up sticks and move away too.


  3. Stravaiger says:

    After Brexit & Indy they will find it more difficult, having lost their EU citizenship!

  4. bobajock says:

    I’m converting my downstairs bathroom into a London’esque apartment for two now.

    Roll on the riches to come from indy.

  5. jimnarlene says:

    I’m gonna need a bigger kettle.

  6. Alison Rollo says:

    Very happy to swap all the English No voters living here for lots of lovely pro Scotland/Europe English YESers!! Brilliant idea.

  7. Fergus Green says:

    Time for Air b’n’b to do some additional promotional work in Scotland.

  8. Bob Mack says:

    It’s rather funny that the English have the courage that many Scots lack. They are willing to take the chance they can cope with the financial aftermath of Brexit, whilst many Scots cower at that very thought following Independence.

    Perhaps that’s an indicator of self belief and the infamous Scottish cringe in action. Master and servant ,

    Anyway. New Scots always welcome here.

  9. Archbishop of Dork says:

    There are 44 treacherous Scots Tory MSPs & MPs I’d be delighted to see head south for good. In return a healthy influx of progressive and pro-European English people to become citizens of the new independent Scotland. Result.

  10. I doubt I’m the only English Brit currently living in the EU and wondering if a more inclusive Scotland would be an option in the future.
    Lots of us have UK/EU citizenship, which means we can come to Scotland if we have a job.
    Maybe I should start applying to employers in Scotland sooner rather than later…

    @Bob Mack: Is it courage? Or bravado based on Westminster’s inflated view of how strong the UK can be after Brexit?

  11. Street Andrew says:

    Corrado Mella says:

    “I’m sure there will be an equivalent number of BritNats P

    I rather doubt that many Scots would move south. Some perhaps into the Borders, but….

  12. Martin says:

    And like anyone fleeing a horrible country they’d be extremely welcome in my book.

  13. Martin says:

    (For clarity I don;t think England IS a horrible country, but has the potential to become one with current political course).

  14. Monica Worley says:

    I hope we get our indy vote in time to also capture some of the companies that want to move. Jobs for all!

  15. Chick McGregor says:

    There may well also be a significant returning ex pat population.

    Those who live here at the time of independence and those who were born here and their children are entitled to automatic Scottish citizenship and Scottish passports.

    Of course a more than doubling of the population would have to be managed over several decades for reasons of infrastructure build-rate restraints.

    Scotland should ideally not have more than 8-10 million or we would be beginning to head into the resource to population imbalance area which so be-dogs England.

  16. Doug says:

    So we could end up with loads of folks from England moving up here? This could be a disaster for ….

    The BBC – post indy that’s another load of TV licenses not paid.
    The Tories in Scotland – I suspect those folks aren’t Tory voters.
    Labour / Lib Dems in England – For the same reason as above.

    Meanwhile I do think we’d need to introduce some new rules for those who wish to move here from England.

    1) Mandatory Irn Bru Testing, no avoiding it you have to drink it at least once a year.
    2) They have to support Scotland in sporting events, if the locals have had to suffer for years so can our new Scots.
    3) Under no circumstances are they to perform Morris Dancing. They can join in with all the proper forms of celebrating things such as Beltane etc.

    I should point out I’m kidding on those rules – if you want to live in Scotland and you want to help your fellow neighbours and local community when you get here that’s all that matters.

  17. Liz g says:

    Andy in Germany & Bob Mack @ 10.56
    It the English exceptionalism.
    It’s the English Achilles Heel,just like the Cringe,is ours.
    Its been drummed into them for so long,but, just every bit as fake.
    But the difference is that our movement is trying to get a dose of reality to form in Scotland.
    Where as England (and the MSM are as damaging to them,as they are to us in this respect) are being led to the American version of my country right or wrong, flegs, adoring the military,(well until they are ex military) and worst of all ridiculing other countries.
    Sad to see two countries who,could be Great are so busy tellin themselves they are Great they’ve forgotten to be Great.

    Anyhoo….. Come on over Andy,the kettle’s on,mind and tell yer pals they would be very welcome too.
    We’ve a country to build…

  18. ScottieDog says:

    @Andy in Germany
    Put it this way Andy if we don’t get independence I’ll be looking around to see what other countries are on offer.

  19. Kangaroo says:

    Great just what we need 1.6m new fruitpickers.

  20. Proud Cybernat says:

    The more of our Indy-supporting English cousins, the better as far as I’m concerned. Indeed, why not move up NOW and help us vote for the kind of progressive country we all want to have.

    Get yersels up here. What you waiting for?

  21. Chick McGregor says:

    I suppose this might be an opportune moment to tout a long held notion of mine but which I don’t think I’ve aired for a couple of years at least.

    Scotland should build a ring of substantially sized, new towns from Perth to Inverness, down the Great Glen and so on to Oban and Glasgow.

    A major, long term and expensive project but one which would redress the depopulation of the Highlands. The new towns would quickly become mini-hubs for those wishing to re inhabit the surrounding glens. Possible re-cultivation to supply local produce could happen as well leading to a significant reduction in methane from currently uncultivated, undrained moor land.

    A route with a good sized town every 10 or 20 miles or so could not demand the ‘distance surcharge’ currently ‘enjoyed’ by the highland populace.

    As I have pointed out a couple of times, in Germany the half of the country which is Lowland and the half which is Highland have almost the same population densities there.

    And it would be more decent sized teams for the Scottish league 🙂

  22. Rod MacKay says:

    We’re going to need a bigger kettle.

  23. Luigi says:

    Well it kind of dispels the fears of some on here that all those English people moving north are natural NO voters.

    They are more likely to swell the YES vote, IMHO. 🙂

    Want to increase the YES vote and neutralise the BritNats among us? Then welcome progressive people, from anywhere to our wonderful country. 🙂

  24. Ottomanboi says:

    It is one of those queer ironies that Scotland has insufficient population replacement issues yet we have in the SNP a party militantly pro-abortion and the rest of the ‘gender’ tick list. . Scotland would seem not to like children.
    Totally irrational.

  25. Archbishop of Dork says:

    We shouldn’t be entirely unconcerned about migration from England though…………there’s always a chance, however slight, that Mone of Mayfair might come back.

  26. starlaw says:

    Well … that will sort out the bedroom tax problem, every room in the country full.

  27. Maolbeatha says:

    Sorry if I am in the wrong place with this, please correct me if I am wrong.
    I recently had a look at some of the posts on what Scotland thinks and there seem to be a lot of very vocal pro union posters on there, particularly one Greaeme Macdonald who seems to be making many many claims about the stats of Scotlands performance. Particularly the NHS performance and the finanaces of Scotland.
    I thought the NHS performance would be an easy one to check out and so I went looking. The measurements seem to be different, Waiting times, A&E times, operations, midwife cuts, etc
    I looked on here first as Wings may have covered this before but couldn’t find it. Searching the web wasn’t much help if trying to find non partisan sources.
    Mr Macdonald seems to have built himself a group of like minded followers on the Independence thread who faithfully agree with his every word/ post.
    If using him as a typical example of a no voter how best to counter his claims?
    Again apologies if I am out of order asking this in this thread.

  28. HandandShrimp says:

    I see Jim Murphy of “we won’t lose a single seat” thinks a hard Brexit will kill independence stone dead.

    I would say the prospects for independence are looking good 🙂

    Just need John Ternan to declare there won’t be a second independence referendum and the runes are set for an early vote.

    As for Baron Darling, I can remember a time when he was considered worth listening to. How easily a man’s head is turned by trinkets and baubles.

  29. Suzanne says:

    I’ve seen plenty of comments, from Scots living overseas, that say they’d come back to Scotland in a flash when we win our independence. Not to mention the descendants of those forced off the land in generations past, wanting to get back to their Scottish homeland but not while there’s a repressive government in Westminster.

    Better get some groceries in. 😀

  30. Ken500 says:

    Nursery care, baby boxes. One of the best education system in the world. No uni fees. Loans for all. Students of household under £21,000 get student grants. Pro rata Scotland has the most universities per population. A wider choice than the rest of the UK. One of highest uni education population in the world.

    Westminster are chucking people out of Scotland. Brexit will cost Scotland £Billions.

  31. Doug says:

    Ottomanboi : Thanks for trolling with nonsense statements now move along with your personal bugaboos and leave the rest of us to get along with living in the 21st Century.

  32. Vestas says:

    Unfortunately I suspect Scotland would/will be mainly gaining geriatric immigrants who, having probably spent their entire lives voting right-wing parties into power are now terrified about the state of NHS England. Oh and free personal care of course.

    Indeed why wouldn’t they be terrified?

    Where I live in Leics ALL of the hospitals spent the majority of the winter on Opel4 (black alert- no beds) status.

    47.5 days of no beds available, 67 cancer patients didn’t get their ops – some delayed by 3 months on top of the 6 or 7 months they’d already been waiting since first seeing a GP.

    IMHO some consideration has to be given to the fact many of these potential geriatric immigrants are responsible for the state of NHS England, I don’t see why they should be able to avoid what they created for free!

  33. Dr Jim says:

    But But won’t all the movers be worried to death about becoming *foreigners* that’s what Alistair Darling and all the rest of the Zoomer togetherers said, and the poverty, the poverty, ASDA and Tesco’ll put up the price of Cornish pasties and Jam, we’ll have to eat Trumps golf course grass to survive, the Labour party in Scotland will protest about…well, something to do with Nationalising Air or Mountains, Raith Davidson will Vow to fight on to save us from ourselves then move to London a fortnight later…eh..because of a red coat wae a white fur collar getting made…if she’s lucky..they might no want her

    They’ve got no argument left but they’ll still argue black’s white

  34. HandandShrimp says:


    Not somewhere I ever read the comments section (in fact I hadn’t noticed there was one) but only a short distance down I saw he was quoting Jill Stephenson as an authority on geopolitics. I would say he is there as part of the Green Ink brigade’s determination to counter Yes’ domination of the interwebs and his allotted area is that site. Looks like the usual SiU crib sheet pish that you see repeated verbatim on the BBC and wherever else will entertain them.

    In essence it is just a clumsy re-articulation of Scotland being too wee, too poor and too stupid to do what Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Belgium and pretty much any other smaller developed European country is perfectly capable of doing. The nub of their argument is that the Union has screwed the Scottish economy to such an extent that like Aboriginal reservations in Australia or the Americas the natives can only survive by dint of state handouts and are incapable of successfully managing their own affairs. The distillation of their position is not an endorsement of the Union but rather a ringing condemnation of it.

  35. Greannach says:

    Although it will be heartbreaking to see Jakey Rowling and Baron Splendid of Darling leaving after independence, they will be offset by people who live Scotland, like Eddie Izzard and Trinny and Susanna.

    We’re just too lucky!

  36. Derick fae Yell says:

    Chick McGregor

    And Scotland’s Atlantic Highway, built in stages

    1 Cowal
    Suspension/Hybrid Bridge from Ayrshire to Toward, stepping over on the Skelmorlie Bank then along the shallow to Toward. Dunoon ferries discontinued (saving), alternative route west avoiding the congested West Loch Lomondside and the perennially disastrous Rest and Be Thankful

    2 Loch Striven
    Short section of A class road along the bottom of Cowal, then up Loch Striven to a suitable crossing point for a bridge.
    Upgraded A class road along to Colintraive

    3 Bute
    Causeway or bridge stepping across the shallows of the East Kyle. Bute now commutable to Glasgow. Colintraive and Wemyss Bay to Rothesay ferries discontinued (saving)

    4 Colintraive to Otter Ferry
    Either A road up to Clachan of Glendaruel, and a combination bored rock tunnel and road to Otter Ferry
    Or upgrade the road round by Tighnabruich and Kames to A road.

    5 Loch Fyne
    Bridge stepping across the narrows at Otter Ferry to connect to the A83. Portavadie to Tarbert ferry discontinued. All traffic to Kintyre, Oban, Mull and the isles now goes west on the Atlantic Highway. Loch Lomondside now the North Highway. The Rest and be Thankful a quiet tourist route. Kintyre re-connected to the world. Ardrossan-Campbeltown ferry discontinued.

    6 Road improvements to upgrade the road between Ardrishig and Tarbert. South of Tarbert the A83 is already excellent.

    7 Bypass behind Gourock to finish the job.

    It would take 30 years, but each step gradually reconnects the West. Live in Bute and commute to Glasgow? No bother.

    Forget the fantasy bridge to Northern Ireland. Reconnect our country first.

  37. Donald MacKenzie says:

    Could we put those wishing to come here in touch with those who say they’ll leave. They could do a house swap.

  38. Sharny Dubs says:

    Someone made an oblique mention of Scottish ex-pats who would be glad to “come home” so to speak. I have long nursed the notion that instead of counting my days in country to avoid paying tax to a totally corrupt in all ways WM, I would be more than happy to register myself to pay into the coffers of our own tax system. I wonder how many there are like me?

  39. louis.b.argyll says:

    Derek fae Yell,
    Good stuff.
    Bridges cause savings over a hundred years. Building bridges creates jobs, uses steel and steel trades.

    Corran Ferry, subsidy approx 2.5 million P/a. Cost of bridge 25 million. Saves 25 million after 20 years.
    We need those economic levers asap.

  40. Maolbeatha says:


    Thank you for your reply.

    I am hoping to find sources to challenge his and “Proud scots (another very vocal pro Union poster on there) claims on the site to see how they respond (and to reassure myself and anyone else reading the posts) In an effort to see how they respond.

    I have seen wings and those who read Wings being cited on there as being slightly unhinged and I assume therefore should be dismissed.

    The thought of using Wings to show their arguments to be false is appealing!

    Anyway thanks again I will keep looking.

  41. Thepnr says:

    I genuinely believe Scotland would be booming for many years after Independence. There would be masses of extra investment by government on improving infrastructure, housing and the NHS.

    Lot’s of new foreign investment from companies wanting to maintain trade with Europe and to be based in a well educated English speaking company.

    All this creates jobs which would need to be filled with tens of thousands of skilled workers, plenty would want to move here, absolutely no doubt a great many from England.

    In fact the result would be the complete opposite of what the Unionists try to sell us as the future of an Independent Scotland, that’s how I see it at least.

  42. Macart says:

    Seems like a fair swap. (cough)

  43. A very interesting scenario, which is another example of what the British nationalists don’t like to mention.

    They have always attempted to claim there would be an exodus of people and businesses from an independent Scotland.

    It will also be interesting to see how many people and businesses leave the UK after Bretix

  44. gus1940 says:

    Derrick fae Yell

    For bridges substitute tidal barrages with roads on top with, where navigation is required, biffurcated sections with locks.

    The big one would be at the mouth of Loch Fyne which would generate enormous ampunts of electricito.

    Apply the same all the way up the eWst Coast at mouths of sea lochs and beteen Islands.

  45. louis.b.argyll says:

    Under a Scottish ‘honours system’,
    tax evaders and their financial advisers will be struck off / exposed for what they are instead.

    We don’t care how much you invest, if there’s no boon to our economy we won’t be advising the Queen to honour you. Bye.

  46. K1 says:


    Here are a couple of links that may cover some of the points that the unionist’s always harp on about and expose the fallacies of their overall logic. The first link takes you to a selection of Wings articles regarding NHS Scotland, the second relates to the subsidy junkie myth wrt Scotland falsely perceived as receiving handouts from England etc.

    If you click on ‘Reference’ at the top of any Wings page, there are a whole raft of subject headings to delve into. Hopefully this will be of some use.

  47. Weechid says:

    Doug says:

    22 May, 2018 at 11:18 am

    “Meanwhile I do think we’d need to introduce some new rules for those who wish to move here from England.”

    The main one being you don’t get to moan about immigrants and refuges:-)

  48. Weechid says:

    Refugees even:-)

  49. Chick McGregor says:

    “there’s always a chance, however slight, that Mone of Mayfair might come back”

    Ah but Wullie Rennie will by then an indy stalwart. He’ll soon tell her, ‘Mone get aff.’ 🙂

  50. Derick fae Yell says:


    Loch Fyne, Loch Striven and the first bit from Ayrshire to the Skelmorlie Bank are probably too deep to do tidal barrages, plus shipping would be an issue.

    Loch Fyne is 500 feet deep at the mouth. You could do a tidal barrage at Otter Ferry though, but it would need a lock for shipping. There probably are other sea lochs that have shallow mouths that would be suitable.

    Loch Striven is about 200 feet deep at the mouth

    Ayrshire to the Skelmorlie bank is about 240 feet deep (plus that’s the submarine and shipping channel for the whole inner clyde). Which would probably best suit suspension bridges. None of the distances are excessive. The inner Clyde is also very deep between Gourock and Dunoon – hence the more southerly route suggested.

    You can see the depths here, if you open the online chart viewer and zoom in. They are given in feet by default.

  51. Graeme mcCormick says:

    Watch out, Donald Trump types might suggest we build a Wall.

  52. Old Pete says:

    Can’t wait for the swap, to think we will be rid of the Orange Lodge and all the other unionist fanatics.
    How delightful and Scotland’s population rising to a size it should be over 10 million, things are looking up.

  53. Sunniva says:

    Many of them would be small businesses.

    Well done in asking questions nobody else will ask.

  54. Chick McGregor says:

    Weechid, Doug,

    Any ‘new’ rules would have to be of the form of making special allowance for English people to move here. (Assuming indy Scotland is still in the EU and England is out).

    On top of that there would be an automatic Scottish (therefore EU) citizenship right for ex pats and their families.

    Where the current free movement of people will emerge from the Bonkers Brexit Bog is anyone’s guess.

    Anywhere between Scotland being obliged to take English immigrants to no way Jose depending on whether the Brexitmaxiteers have their way.

  55. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Darling, Davidson, Murphy and Gove. That’s a very flat back four the new Better Together are fielding. Very flat indeed. Just wait till our pacey Wingers get among them!
    Not to mention our star striker Mhairi Black.

    Elsewhere it has been revealed that the average age of BBC Reporting McLincolnshire is 61. Knock me over with a football as Douglas Ross would say.

    Chick@1:49 Nice one!

  56. Archbishop of Dork says:

    My post @2:20 2nd paragraph.

    Average age of the viewers I meant to say.

  57. Cherry says:

    Just my thoughts, we do need to remember that for us to grow our nation we actually need to have YOUNG folks producing babies…not oap’s looking for free medical care. There has to be a point system put in place. If not we might as well forget our independence because we would be England’s retirement home, and all our plans would drown in a sea of wrinklies. We can still be welcoming but we also have to be aware of the realities of sharing our little country with folk who have skills which are much needed, than folk who would just suck the life from our fledgling nation. Sorry to be a party pooper!

  58. Doug_Bryce says:

    Carney drops a clanger ?

    “Mark Carney says currency union ‘economically possible'”

    Where did that come from ?
    Is he disillusioned with Brexit ?
    Or trying to fool Scottish government to stick with CU as plan A ?

    FWIW : it is our £ just as much as theirs…

  59. I have often the exaggerated prospect of a mass post No Deal Brexit exodus of predominantly Northern English ‘refugees’ heading North to Free Scotland within the EU.
    The foreign industrial giants, take car manufacturers as an example, will not hang around in No Deal Brexit Engwaland, the 51st State, conjoined with the Imperial United States of Trumpland by marriage of one of the Windsors and a Yankee soap star (their version of ‘Royalty’.)
    Free Scotland within Europe will be the blatantly obvious country for Jaguar, Citroen, Toyota, Hyundai, to relocate.
    They will offer their English staff generous ‘relocation packages’ to head North to God’s Little Acre.
    It will mean that the Robber Barons, the Lairds with their vast estates ‘granted’ to them by English kings and queens over the past 300 years as payment for slaughtering the peasants will have to give up their grouse moors, country estates, and salmon rivers, by compulsory purchase order.

    New Free Scotland needs the land in public ownership once more, to build New Towns, industrial complexes, and houses for all.
    If I lived in Surbiton and needed £500,000 to buy a First Time buyer one bedroomed flat, and suddenly realised as the Yoon Press Embargo was lifted come Independence, that I could get a flat in Glasgow for 1/5th of that, tops, then I’d be looking out my kilt and sporran and joining the tsunami of ‘economic migrants’ heading out of Englandsylvania, the 51st State, home of the chlorinated chicken, and steroid fattened Texas T Bone.
    It’s all about to get very messy indeed.

  60. Artyhetty says:

    Very interesting, and it’s already happening, lots of young people coming to live in Scotland from England as we speak. I just drop things into conversations with them, (in a group we all go to about arty stuff) about Scotland’s water not being privatised, and Scotland being charged to connect to the ‘national’, ie England controlled grid. Scotland’s NHS not in crisis and bursaries for nurses have not been scrapped like they have in England!

    I think we all know who has the reputation of being ultra arrogant around the world, and it definitely isn’t the Scottish people! The total myth of subsidy junkie, well, it’s fed to the people of England to make them feel better and superior, if only they knew the truth. Oh dear.

  61. Vestas says:

    @ Archbishop of Dork 2:02 pm :

    “Darling, Davidson, Murphy and Gove”

    I just have this feeling about how this will go in cartoons.

    Zombie, BuffaloGal, EggMan and The Brain ride forth…. 🙂

  62. Liz g says:

    Chick McGregor @ 1.59
    We are also all assuming that Westminster, will not prevent any migration to Scotland and the rEU?
    As it will need a skilled workforce even if it doesn’t want to reward them properly.
    Also the effects on house prices if a lot of people are selling up to leave!
    Or mair tae the point, prevent them bringing their savings with them.
    I think although I don’t know for sure that America has an arrangement along those lines,anybody know if that’s true and what it actually is?

  63. Sunniva says:

    I think some serious thought should be given to policy on migration from rUK in the event of Scottish independence because we could end up with a deluge and the wrong sort of immigrants who could contribute to the Scottish economy.

  64. Ian Anderson says:

    I recently visited the GP and was seen by a student GP who had emigrated from China.

    It was a short visit and we had time for a little chat. I raised the big issue of recruiting GP’s especially in rural practices. So I asked if she was staying in the area and continuing as a GP and she was enthusiastically affirmative to both.

    She went on to say she thought the recruitment issue would ease soon in Scotland, at least, as so many junior staff were moving to Scotland from England. When I asked her why. She laughed and said it was a no brainer, the treatment of staff, working conditions and terms were so much better North of the Border.

    It was a delightful conversation and she will be a great asset for the Scottish NHS for many years to come.

  65. Muscleguy says:

    The tidal turbines currently in the Pentland Firth are producing power without a tidal barrage or being in the way of shipping.

    Aside from the mouths of sea lochs there are LOTS of tidal races between islands and the mainland or other islands. We did a sea kayaking course out of Oban couple of summers ago and were shown sailing charts and advised how to plan a route as a lot of those races are too fast to paddle against. Even for Olympic standard paddlers.

    It seems like a no-brainer to me to put tidal turbines in there. We can leave the monster at the top of Jura alone but everywhere else should be fair game. The flow between Skye and the Mainland is a prime site for eg, it really moves through there.

    With the bridges we could put the turbines between the piers where the shipping channel isn’t taking advantage of the increased flow there. Win-win. For eg most of the Tay Bridges’ piers are not either side of the channel and prime for a turbine each, on each bridge. If no rock can be found they could be tethered to the piers. River flow AND the tidal stream. Ditto on all the bridges over the Forth.

  66. Liz g says:

    Cherry @ 2.10
    I think that the system is already there Cherry!
    The EU freedom of movement arrangement is that you can stay if you have a job…
    It’s not a free for all.. it really isn’t.
    In fact, it’s the opposite that’s true, the freedom for the elderly to come up from down south is because of the UK Union.
    When that Treaty of Union is no longer in force, the rules for relocation to Scotland will be the same as relocating to any EU country,EG Spain.

  67. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Doug_Bryce at 2.12

    Sir Mervyn King, the previous governor of the Bank Of England (Sir Mervyn King)already said so. He conceded to refuse such would have been hugely damaging to the rUK economy. Sterling is of course as much Scottish as it is English

  68. Scottish Steve says:

    While I’d be heartbroken beyond words if the 700,000 moved south to be under the benevolent rule of Westminster, the idea of a massive English influx unsettles me. I do not like the thought of being a minority in my own country. Hell, we Scots are a minority in the UK already. What’s the point in becoming independent just to repeat the process by allowing a bunch of English busybodies to move up here and outnumber us?

    They’d certainly bring with them their love for Conservative governments. And we all know where that would lead.

  69. Thepnr says:

    @Derick fae Yell

    Building bridges in water depth over 200ft would likely be massively expensive. Tunnels would be the way to go, the same as Norway does to cross the deep fjords with water depths up to 1000ft.

    The first underwater tunnel in Norway was only built in 1982 and since then another 31 have opened and 3 more are in construction.

    The Solbakk tunnel, due to be opened this year will be the longest road tunnel in the world at 14.3km. In fact it is two tunnels side by side, both dual carriageway.

    The estimated cost of this tunnel when it went out to tender in 2013 was just $420 million (how so cheap) compare that with the cost of the new Queensferry crossing at £1.35 billion. Very good article on the Solbakk tunnel below.

  70. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The fact is that if we refuse to come to a constructive agreement on the use of sterling (initially at least)they will be begging for one.

    And the point I made in the Stu’s last post stands. If we establish that clever and informed people are going for independence we win. The “currency issue”, like all the other scaremongering will not be put to bed by getting involved in mind numbing arguments. Like all similar issues it will be put to bed by clever and informed people publicly showing complete satisfaction in our position on them.

  71. Liz g says:

    Sunniva @ 2.23
    As with my answer to Cherry @ 2.33
    I don’t see that we would have much problems Sunniva, if we are in the EU,EEA or EFTA, the rules are already there.

    If England is not then we would also only be applying whatever arrangement they have made with the EU.
    Either way Scotland will only really be protected from becoming England’s retirement home by Independence!

    All that we really need to guard against is Holyrood doing what Westminster has done, IE, not applying the rules properly….. thus creating a problem, manufacturing a reaction and then offering a solution……
    In other words playing politics with immigrants, if the current EU freedom of movement rules are to create a problem for Scotland….
    Then we fix it at EU level…..The level where we currently cannot go…. and we get it done without wrecking Scottish relations internationally….. Simples….

  72. ScottieDog says:

    I see lord and employee of the city of London Darling is back in the saddle, but where is El Cid? Aka Gordon brown.

  73. jfngw says:

    My preference is now for a Scottish currency, they had their chance in 2014 and used the currency as a method to undermine us. I don’t trust them not to try and use it to damage Scotland in the future.

    If it results in undermining the pound after the abolition of the Treaty of Union then so be it, not a problem of Scotland’s creation.

  74. Derick fae Yell says:


    Interesting link from Norway – I didn’t realise sub-sea tunnels could go so deep. Suppose it’s a function of having a long enough approach to get the gradients right.

    I’d assumed suspension bridges because they don’t sit in the deeper water so the water depth under the main span is not an issue. The water depth on the Skelmorlie Bank is just 65feet, which would require a main span of just over 2,000metres. Bridges tend to be cheaper than tunnels but that would be a big bridge.

    You’d need to do a full STAG for each section. Bridge, tunnel, submerged tube etc? The original Queensferry bridge STAG started with 48 different options.

    Apologies for the slightly off topic discussion. it is sort of connected because we’d need somewhere for all those extra people to live and ways for them to get about!

  75. Sinky says:

    On basis that more Scots support Indy than the Monarchy will BBC National TV / STV / MSM give prominence to Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, remarks that it would be economically possible for an independent Scotland could enter into a currency union with the rest of the United Kingdom.

    Another NO campaign lie exposed.

  76. Andy-B says:

    Sounds to me as though a fair few English folk realise that nothing is going to change at Westminster and they’re mulling over whether moving to Scotland would be a good idea or not.

    They’re correct though, if that’s their trail of thought, Westminster won’t change, instead of reforming the HoL as promised, Corbyn and May are expanding it.

  77. Brian Powell says:

    That sixth from Scotland would be the Tories, because imagine being a Labour supporter and hating your fellow countrymen so much, especially as they are leftish too. That couldn’t be so, surely?

  78. Wullie says:

    Jack collatin says:
    Jack love yer posts. but. Compulsory purchase to me is a form of RESET. Why buy back stolen property. Just because a thief holds onto stolen property for a period of time does not make them the owner.
    I dislike the buyouts of land for anybody it merely rewards the theft. Take the land back the same way it was taken from the people. simple.
    The Scottish legal system will happily write out new title deeds to the new and rightful owners in the same manner they wrote out deeds in the past. hey ho why not.

  79. scottieDog says:

    Funny I hear folk say ‘Dont talk about Currency’. I come back and everyone is talking about it!

    Seriously folks, the currency question isn’t just another policy, it is implicit with the independence question. Once you understand that there is a huge difference between being currency issuer (real sovereignty) and currency user (devolved power) you will realise there is only one currency choice.

  80. Liz g says:

    jfngw @ 3.48
    Me too,I have always been more in favour of a Scottish currency.
    Even in 2014…. In fact almost everyone I spoke to then were a bit “meh” on a currency union.
    Although it wouldn’t have stopped me going along with it as the arguments that it was smother were strong.
    I had thought that it wouldn’t be very long before the demand grew for Holyrood to get out of the currency Union too.

    The attitude seemed to be “well ok if it gets us out” and the expectation was that we would need eyes in the back of our head,to be in a currency Union with a country who has an interest in hobbling competition for London.
    Also that Westminster and England would expect once again, as usual, to be the dominant partner and they had had a gut full of that.

    I still don’t actually know anyone who wants a currency Union,even from day one of Indy.

    Only disagreement I’ve heard is the name,I just stick with —Stirling-,to make it easy on the pensioners,( who back in the day took a while to get on board with Decimilisation, although this is a different set of pensioners right enough) and if Westminster want to change their “Sterling”
    fine by me!
    In fact we will just have helped them “take back control” to do just that!

  81. At their London conference on unionism Jim Murphy believes Brexit will kill indyref2, because the harder the brexit the harder independence would be to achieve and it will leave Scottish nationalism with nowhere to go.

    This from the clown who claimed he wouldn’t lose one single MP in the 2015 general election.

    Then there’s Alistair Darling who doesn’t believe there will be another referendum in the foreseeable future, possibly not in his lifetime.

  82. Aikenheed says:

    Sinky at 4.08
    Also in BBC news speculation that the Plan for Growth will have espouse having our own currency. Reality beginning to bite? This may be the cause of Yoon panic?

  83. It’s been interesting reading the comments. I hadn’t realised that having a German passport could mean I can move to Scotland under EU rules (as long, as has been pointed out, as I have an income) whereas rUK citizens would be ‘non-EU’ immigrants.
    By the way, if that is the case then under usual EU rules, they can’t vote in elections, so there’s no need to worry about a voting shift right.

    By the way I’m a state accredited cabinet maker and currently finalising my Occupational Therapist qualification, and Scotland will need Occupational Therapists to pick up the slack caused by lack of provision for people with mental disabilities and Psychological problems under Westminster’s watch in the UK.

    I’d come now, but there would be almost no work, and WM’s anti-furriner policies mean my Japanese wife wouldn’t get a visa.

    Just one other thing, when thinking about these infrastructure projects, please think beyond roads. Germany does have active towns in the hills, but many of them are rail served, and as a result more compact and easier to travel to.

    If you want an inclusive society you have to make a society where you don’t need a car to travel.

  84. Thepnr says:

    I don’t think anyone need worry about a potential influx of huge numbers of English people immigrating to Scotland.

    It could only possibly happen AFTER Independence and it would mean that Scotland is booming, we’d all benefit from such an economic expansion.

    More jobs, better pay due to scarcity of labour, better housing, rising income for the government of Scotalnd through getting more into the kitty without raising taxes. They could then spend that money on better housing, an even better NHS, better state pensions.

    Scotland will undoubtedly start grow faster than it evr has done as an Independent country as part of that we will need more people and I really don’t care where these people come from if it helps improve the lifestyle for all our citizens.

    By the way, it’s also very unlikely that we’d be swamped with too many to handle, these things tend to care of themselves. I don’t know that many Scots planning to emigrate to Norway, well truth is I don’t know any.

    I think we’d got just enough as was needed that could improve our economy significantly.

  85. Thomas Valentine says:

    The kinds of people you likely get moving to Scotland would make it a better place. You should all get the spare room ready.

  86. Robert Louis says:

    The indyref2 campaign hasn’t even started yet, and it has the unionists running around uttering the same gibberish they did in 2014. No new arguments from them. The same old deadbeats, Murphy, Darling and co. Red Tories and blue Tories jumping in to bed together with such ease all over again.

    Once the call comes, we need to go at this hard, because the lying unionists (rich landowners and toffs based in England)will throw every dirty trick they can at it. Including blatantly lying about their funding – how about another ‘bung’ from the DUP eh?

    And, IF Westminster stupidly calls an election, then the SNP manifesto needs to be clear and to the point. Independence. If they do that then the entire yes movement should get behind them in every possible way.

    It is quite honestly, very, very telling just how panicked the unionists have become in recent days. THEY ARE FEART.

    I don’t know about anybody else but this time I will work harder than ever to get us the winning result.

  87. jfngw says:

    @Liz g

    Not sure if a currency could be in place from day one, that’s a pretty tall order. There seems many things to sort out before the currency is launched. All the preparation would need to start well before independence day, and nobody is going to do most of the work required until a positive vote is secured (it would be a massive waste of money if the vote was no, the nightmare scenario).

  88. thingy says:

    Let’s be honest, we won’t be getting their assholes because they wouldn’t come here. They may be thick, racist degenerates but they are not entirely stupid. They, however, will be getting our assholes. It’s like the most delicious karma you could ever imagine. It is karma-flavoured ice-cream with chocolate sauce and hundreds and thousands; it is American cream soda and salt and vinegar chipsticks karma; it is a fucking munchie box karma with a free can of 7 Up. It will be karmatastic. 🙂

  89. Dr Jim says:

    There won’t be an influx of anybody but there might be a lot of applications to come and as Scotland will have its own immigration policy many will be knocked back in the same way every other country does

    As for all these knuckle dragging existing Scots shouting about leaving, where do they think they’re going to live in jolly old England and will they get permission from England to just arrive as they please, I doubt it

    As for pensions they’re all paid by the UK and will continue to be paid by the UK for an agreed period of time because the UK treasury is where everybodies National Insurance is paid in to so a settlement deal on time and amount paid will be sorted

    Population increase will be a fairly slow affair though quicker than it was in the past because infrastructure has to be built to support it, Scotland has plenty of room to put people but at the moment not the services to accept any kind of exodus from England, it’ll all take time but the Scottish building industry can look forward to good times

    Mark Carney’s currency union: Aye right! Coz we’re aw daft!

    *Without oil Englands econonmy drops to around $0.80c and has nothing to sell whereas Scotland will be the place to invest because it will be a member of the EU* says Jim Rogers multi millionaire American investor on Bloomberg TV

  90. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Sewiously thinking abaout moving to Scotland. Yah.

    -Oh? Whereabouts?

    Um…Scotland in genewal, you know. In fact, you don’t happen to know a nice scenic awea where there aren’t a lot of scots, do you?

  91. Welsh Sion says:

    … is booking his accommodation early, so this Welshie isn’t thwarted to a sun lounger on the beach at Stranraer by some sunburnt, pot-bellied English oik.

  92. frogesque says:

    @Dr Jim: 5.08

    We will just have to be good unionists:

    Make love, not war, lots of bonnie wee Scots bairns!

  93. Karmanaut says:

    I wonder if we got a campaign going, if it would attract decent numbers? It’s a big deal selling up and moving house.
    Definitely worth a shot though.

  94. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, in my little dabble below the line in the express, there were a few posters who said the same thing – they were considering moving to Scotland, not just to stay in the EU though, but to escape the increasing xenophobia down there.

    Well they’re welcome, bring the family, bring the business, bring the family heirlooms and inheritance! Independent Scotland will be booming for business, and our happiness index is way higher than the rUK.

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s actaully evidence it’s already happening, considering the housing market, and seems to me they’re likely to be YES voters.

  96. Thepnr says:

    I doubt that the UK would continue paying Scottish pensioners after Independence. I think from day 1 of Independence the Scottish government would take responsibility for that. Of course a deal would have to be worked out with the rUK based on what NI everyone in Scotland has already paid and not just current pensioners all future ones too for a certain time.

    Who knows what that agreement might be, a reduction in our share of the UK debt or guaranteed payments direct to the SG every year for whatever period of time it took.

    Pension liabilities are huge and that’s a debt owed by Westminster to all of Scotland’s workers that have paid in. The SG will decide what the appropriate pension is in this country, no one else. I’d expect that eventually to be a more generous payment than we currently have and hopefully all fully paid for in the brand new Scottish currency.

    I get myself carried away with the possibilities, I believe all are realistic scenarios though and not just pie in the sky.

  97. ronnie anderson says:

    BDTT do you think our Scottish passport printer can cope with a Big Big order and we’ll need mair Calligraphers for Dumfries march 2nd June , they’ll be coming over the border to get the passports fae the Wings stall .

  98. Colin Alexander says:

    Scotland voted Remain. The Scot Govt and FM said that must be respected. That was the right thing to say. Until such time as the people decide to leave the EU, that position should remain. The Scot Govt were wrong to accept Brexit.

    The Remain vote should be respected. No ifs, but, or.

    Also, the right to self-determination via indyrefs or decisions on independence should not be tied to anything, except obtaining the electoral mandate.

  99. Wullie @4.21pm
    I take your point on RESET rather than Compulsory Purchase.
    I was thinking about paying £1 an acre.
    We must revolutionise Scotland.
    Lord Lieutenants? Whatafukizat?

  100. Perhaps BAE could build SS Windrush II at Govan/Rosyth to ferry the 700,000 Leavers to Hull or Grimsby?

  101. ronnie anderson says:

    Reluctant Nationalist Aye Gruinard’s the place fur you Enjoy the piece and tranquility

  102. Bill McLean says:

    Maolbeatha at 1205pm. This site is terrific for information but another one I read every day is “Talking up Scotland” by John Robertson – he supplies information and links to statistics to prove his point.

  103. Robert Peffers says:

    @gus1940 says: 22 May, 2018 at 1:24 pm:

    “For bridges substitute tidal barrages with roads on top with, where navigation is required, biffurcated sections with locks.
    The big one would be at the mouth of Loch Fyne which would generate enormous ampunts of electricito.”

    Are you forgetting that Scotland has a 24/7/365 warm water sea current flowing along the north coast and a good way down the west coast and there is the cold water current flowing in the opposite direction. They are already installing sea current generators and they have proven to outperform the original expectations. Scotland is already almost elf sufficient in green energy but has massive more potential.

    Another forgotten fact is that there is lots of almost unused land in the Southern uplands – only used today to raise sheep.

  104. Juan says:

    Surely the next IndyRef must be a totally Scottish affair? In the Tory regimes EU referendum, the EU didn’t front, fund nor campaign for Remain in EU. This is a precedent and the English love a precedent. The UK government should not be involved in any way in Scotland’s next IndyRef. Even with a Section 30, the benchmark has been set. Not that this should bother Better Together 2.0, as Ruth is supremely popular in Scotland, according to her and the colonialist media. All she needs is for “the 55%” to show their love of this “Union” and stump up the cash for her Bitter campaign and have her average age 72 year old Tory members out delivering leaflets and manning the street stalls.

  105. ronnie anderson says:

    Andy in Germany The possibilities are endless in a Independent Scotland we can pick & choose the best from the rest of the world & Transport infrastructure Trains ( mono rail / trams / elec buses ect ect , the West Coast & points further north can be opened up & repopulated .

  106. louis.b.argyll says:

    From the Canary/Twitter..

    ‘While Labour is putting resources into Scotland, it’s unlikely that SNP swing voters will come back en masse without a real commitment to ditch Blairism.’

    Shouldn’t that be Unionism? The Scottish electorate has already ditched Blairism and failed to bounce to Corbyn.

  107. thingy says:

    Juan @6:43

    Nope. We need to win on our own terms, sure, but everyone in Scotland must have their say.
    I will have no truck with anything that excludes our fellow Scots (no matter where they hail from)from a democratic plebiscite.

  108. Liz g says:

    Andy in Germany @ 4.33 pm
    Whatever the current EU Freedom of movement rules are, and they are currently checkable, that’s what Scotland will have.
    We are going to be in the EU,EFTA or the EEA after Indy, so if you are serious about coming then check those rules out.
    And also places like Historic Environment Scotland look for craftsmen so you might have work before we have rebooted the health service, you should take a look!
    Great point about “joined up public transport “… I think Common Weel have written something on it.
    But it’s a great place to start to get us up and running for a successful Scotland…

    jfngw @ 4.58
    I don’t think we could have a currency up and running from day one either, but never say never.
    The Scottish Government have had a few years to plan.
    But yes,a transition period is the most likely, I agree.

    I m just repeating remarks that I’m getting from friends and family and they did and still do want as little input as possible from Westminster, and it’s getting worse.
    Ye want tae hear them when I try and suggest some of Indyref2s thoughts on how it might make sense to share military stuff with Westminster…
    They (Westminster ) have been burning a lot of bridges since 2014.
    Thepnr @ 6.06
    Isn’t it great to discuss what is possible for Scotland….. fair makes ye more determined than ever to make it happen…. and it all starts with Indy!

  109. thingy says:

    And of course there’s fuck all democratic about exclusion.

  110. louis.b.argyll says:

    Robert Louis, 4.56pm.

    I agree, this is an obvious (Royally convenient) onslaught of British Nationalism, by the BBC and all the other British Nationalist Parties and Agencies.

    I’m also with you, in that resolve has strengthened.

  111. Iain says:

    No voters are afraid of change, of the unknown.

    For that reason, when Scotland achieves independence, there will be no mass exodus of No voters to England. Indeed, they’ll soon get used to the new Scotland.

    Do you remember Michael Forsyth’s threat many years ago?

  112. ronnie anderson says:

    Ah winae wish those clowns fae Ferguslie Park oan the the English people ( no surrender the Queen brings in £ 2 million in visitors to the country ) , naw keep them here gie them joabs litter picking oan the motorways .

  113. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cherry says: 22 May, 2018 at 2:10 pm:

    “Just my thoughts, we do need to remember that for us to grow our nation we actually need to have YOUNG folks producing babies…not oap’s looking for free medical care.”

    Why not first put your brain in gear before launching an ageist and insulting attack upon your elders?

    In the first place it is likely that an independent Kingdom of Scotland would be in the EU, EFTA or at very least in the Schengen area.

    It is also likely that the three country Kingdom of England would be outside the free trade/movement area. So the English Welsh and Northern Irish would not get automatic right to just sell up and move to Scotland.

    Furthermore the favourable conditions prevailing just now where the housing shortages and high property values in England would disappeared overnight if there was a flood of older people selling up their expensive southern property and buying cheaper and often larger/better property in Scotland.

    Simply because with the influx of people to Scotland from the Kingdom of England the house prices in the south would bottom out and those in Scotland would go up like a rocket.

    I know from experience and from former Londoners who moved to Scotland that the prime motivation was NOT free hand outs but property prices. They sold up and not only got a bigger and better house but made enough profit of the sale to set-up an account that provided a reasonable extra pension.

    I know of a London couple, (ex-Civil Servants) who sold a pokey wee one bedroom flat, (with a two car garage underneath) in a choice area of London and were able to buy a big ex-farmhouse in rural Scotland with outbuildings, a field and a paddock for their two horses.

    Not only did they both have good civil service pensions but, like many other civil servants were both BUPA Members. They really didn’t need the freebies and their motive for moving was entirely profits from the house selling and their fulfilled retirement dreams.

  114. louis.b.argyll says:

    -If England builds walls against currency fairness, they maintain their risks at our cost, they will lose bigger medium term.
    -While Scotland can borrow from day one, with healthy exports and potential revenues oiling our systems in our favour.

    Do you think that’s simple enough for the Tories to understand?

  115. jfngw says:

    @Liz g

    I entirely agree with the sentiments, but the currency needs to be done correctly, we don’t want any ‘we told you so’ if it is rushed and there are lots of issues. As always introducing new systems can take longer than anticipated and this will frustrate some, but the end goal is worth the wait. Hopefully those who you talk to will understand the importance if this being done correctly.

    I imagine the SNP has been putting some effort into this as a party, they currently can’t use SG staff. So hopefully they have policy ready on this to put into action the day after a Yes vote.

  116. ahundredthidiot says:

    reminds me of a chance conversation with a south london fella on holiday….he stated that we scots are subsidised by their council tax

    yip. thats what he said. i think my reply was, and you need to stop reading the daily express…..he was stumped

  117. Schrodingers cat says:

    Wouldn’t it be better on the morning of a yes vote to immediately declare Scotland to be a sovereign and independent country? Why wait 18 months of negotiations before making that declaration?

    If the UK can’t negotiate it’s way out of the EU as an independent entity. Why can’t we?

  118. Juan says:

    thingy @6:55, where was I excluding “fellow Scots”? I was excluding the UK government, finance and campaigning from OUTWITH Scotland.
    Why are we always supposed to fight on an un level playingfeld? Why should the “Unionists” be allowed an unfair advantage? They’ll still have almost all the media on their side again. Why should they also have every UK government department campaigning on their behalf as well, as they did the last time?
    The EU didn’t front, fund or campaign in any way for Remain in EU. Why should the UK government be allowed to front, fund and campaign for Remain in UK, in Scotland’s next IndyRef?
    Are we to learn nothing from IndyRef 2014?

  119. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sunniva says: 22 May, 2018 at 2:23 pm:

    “I think some serious thought should be given to policy on migration from rUK in the event of Scottish independence because we could end up with a deluge and the wrong sort of immigrants … “
    It just isn’t going to happen, Sunniva.

    In fact it is a myth that most Englander immigrants to Scotland do so for the free perks, (which are not free, incidentally free, they are only free at the point of use but are paid for from taxation. The main force that drives these Englanders is without doubt mainly property values.

    An Englander couple, perhaps either self employed or professionals with decent pensions and perhaps private health care plans, can sell up a small flat in London and have enough cash from the sale to buy a decent sized rural house in Scotland with a reasonable bit of land included and still have money left over from the property deals.

    However, if there was an exodus from the Kingdom of England the bottom would fall out of the English property market and if the exodus was to Scotland the Scots house market would skyrocket. In any case if Scotland was in the free Schengen area and England, Wales and N.I were not there would be automatic problems for them getting visas and such like.

  120. Schrodingers cat says:

    In 2010. 45% of Scots voted labour. I despaired that even after the crash and such a rubbish pm as gordo we still voted labour
    We had been fighting this losing battle for years hopi g to break into the central belt . On the morning of the result I seriously doubted we ever would.
    But in the following month of the condemned coalition. Something changed. I could feel it in the air
    It was as if after all ofor these years the electorate suddenly said
    ENOUGH is Enough

    And they switchedo. The SNP got 45% just 11 months later.
    We need another such turning g point to get us over the line

    Something that makes another 10% say
    Enough is enough

  121. Highland Wifie says:

    I would expect that the people seriously considering moving here would be the outward looking, pro European folks who want to live in a socially just country. So hopefully unlikely that many DM reading elderly Tory voters will make that move. They’re so utterly convinced by all the drivel they read that we are a poor backwater that can’t manage without good ol’ England.

    It’s a real tonic reading all the positive comments about what Scotland could be as a new independent country. How much more determined we’ll all be when we’re working to make life better for everyone here, because we can.

  122. Ken500 says:

    Taxes raised in Scotland already pay (UK Gov) pensions in Scotland. Scottish taxes pay UK Gov pensions/benefits, in Scotland. £16Billion a year. There is no UK pension fund it is paid from current taxes.

    Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes (without Oil revenues). The Block Grant back is £30Billion (on average). £16Billion (UK) pensions/benefits, £4Billion Defence. (£1Billion Trident). £4Billion (plus Oil revenues) left. Administration in London which should be in Scotland for more jobs. Making loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Hinkley Point & HS2. Scotland can’t borrow to invest.

    Scotland has lost £Billions in illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion (approx £3Billion a year).

  123. Tam the Bam. says:


    So its begun….and already Yoon Central are dissing and smearing as we always knew they would.Dont know about you guys,but I for one,am so glad to hear Eck is back (did he really go away?)…we are going to need ALL our big hitters Salmond/Robertson/Hosie etc., (apologies to those who consider themselves big-hitters that I omitted….nothing personal).

  124. Robert Peffers says:

    @Muscleguy says: 22 May, 2018 at 2:30 pm:

    ” … The tidal turbines currently in the Pentland Firth are producing power without a tidal barrage or being in the way of shipping.”

    That’ll be because those, “Tidal Turbines”, are actually not tidal turbines they are driven by sea currents. There is the warm Gulf Stream flowing towards Scotland across the Atlantic and that is fed by colder polar waters flowing in the other direction to get warmed in the Gulf.

    Believe it or not we had debates about that at the Dockyard College when I was serving my apprenticeship way back in the early 1950s.

    The feasibility of tidal, sea currents and, (both pumped and natural storage), hydro were all well known even back then. In fact many Scottish river estuaries are fed by fast flowing rivers fed from out mountains. Even the River Forth has a fresh water current flowing to the sea. The river with the fastest, and most copious, flow in Britain is the Spey.

  125. Schrodingers cat says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about what happens after a yes vote

    The 1st thing that will become apparent is that Scotland is a far wealthier country that Westminster says.

    There are no shostages of examples quoted regularly on here which highlight exactly how Westminster cooks the books

    When the chancellor’s has to announce 30 to 40% cuts to every department across the board the sound of the taxi drivers and little England erstwhile screeching will drown out any other discussion

  126. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, does playing with a Unionist make someone a bad person?

  127. Rock says:

    “Because no fewer than 12% of English voters said they’d definitely consider moving to an independent Scotland that was a member of the EU, with another 11% not sure.”

    And 99% of those who did move would vote No in any independence referendum.

    It is the ultimate in stupidity to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England, in my humble opinion.

  128. frogesque says:

    @yesindyref2: 8.28

    We are an open society and what happens between consenting adults behind closed doors is no one else’s business.

  129. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 7.29pm

    As someone who worked for nine hugely-enjoyable years in Paisley, during which I got to meet many of the very nice folk frae Feegie, can I just say:

    “Haw Pal, gonnae no dae that – Fine Ah ken Feegie hud its share o’ hooks, crooks and comic singers, but, dinnae judge awebudy frae Fred the Shred and Oor Andra Neil. OK – pal.”

  130. TheItalianJob says:

    Good thread with lots of good comments but let’s be cautious.

    I remember during Indy1 many comments about “we have them worried”, “they’re bricking it”, our “internal polling shows yes ahead” etc etc.

    I honestly thought the end result would be closer than a 10% differential and it wasn’t at it transpired.

    We have to be very switched on to what we are up against i.e. the Westminster Establishment including all unionist political parties, the biased MSM and the pro unionists Scots.

    We need a much stronger and harder pro Yes led movement led by a strong individual working with the SNP top team to work against and counter the deluge of unsupported facts and promises the opposition will throw at us.

    A lot of wingers here on this site worked really hard last time and will do so again in canvassing etc.

    One area that definitely needs to be tightened up on is the postal vote and I’m hoping this will be done during the next Indy ref.

    We need to be vigilant and coherent in our approach and ensure we are not divided on any aspect of the campaign in order to prevail this time.

    We don’t want to end up like Quebec after their second Independence vote which was lost by circa 0.4%.

  131. Dr Jim says:

    First you say English folk would move to an Independent Scotland in the EU then you say but they would vote against The Independence we would already have which is the reason they would move here

    Tablets not working?

  132. Dr Jim says:

    The Mark Carney story getting loads of plays on the news channels
    They know we’re leaving this time but pleading with us to let them control our money

    Last time it was all no no we don’t want your stinking money, now it’s all gonnae geez it gonny gaez it….. Purleeeze

  133. yesindyref2 says:

    But what if one does it in public?

  134. thingy says:

    Juan @ 7:44

    Apologies, Juan. I took your post to mean Scots-born only.

    We won’t get a level playing field, that’s not how they operate. We can’t outspend them and we have little media support. We can’t really play them at their own game, and like it or not, they still have the ball, so we have to co-operate to a certain extent. Shitty, but that’s the way it is.

    We got from 23% to 45% in two years with grassroots groups and the WBB – that’s our game. That’s what we learn from 2014.

  135. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 8.54
    When in Public one must remember One is not the Messiah, just a very naughty boy… tsk…

  136. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Where’s Heed when you need him? He likes to play with Unionists!

  137. Gary says:

    Yeh, they’d ‘consider’ it. But I seem to remember lots of well known figures in the US saying they’d ‘move to Canada’ etc if Trump got in. Notably they all stayed put.

    The other point about ‘price worth paying; IS more interesting though. It shows that a large number WOULD be willing to lose us and, looking at the problems being caused in NI, the fact that most took no heed of any thoughts that a LEAVE vote would adversely affect anyone else. An ‘I’m alright, Jack’ type of vote.

    Still, what have we actually learned? More to the point, what have we actually learned that we can make use of?? Not much, except that your average voter, on any issue, is mostly unthinking and dim-witted. But we knew this anyway, didn’t we?

  138. Juan says:

    thingy @7:44. Thanks for the apology.
    I accept and expect them to play dirty. It’s the only way they know. What I don’t accept is that we play Cricket, their game, their rules, while they play murderball with oor baw!
    The EU referendum shows us how to level the field at least a bit. The EU weren’t interested in running the Remain campaign and aren’t allowed to. It was a UK REFERENDUM. The IndyRef is a SCOTTISH REFERENDUM, with all who live here and having the right to vote allowed to participate. This is our game, our baw and played on oor pitch. That way we can match their funding. We can more than compete with activists, but they’ll still have their media on their side. So be it, but we are deserving of democracy and the international law states that the colonialist country should have no part in an independence referendum. These are the rules and we MUST apply them.
    The UK’s EU referendum provides the template. Let’s use that, without the lies on buses and dog whistle xenophobia, obviously.

  139. Juan says:

    Sorry Rev, inputting from phone. Thought I’d put breaks in there.

    Bring on the hammers!

  140. geeo says:

    Not a quiet 2018 in Scottish politics then ?

  141. ScotsRenewables says:

    Rock says:
    22 May, 2018 at 8:34 pm
    “Because no fewer than 12% of English voters said they’d definitely consider moving to an independent Scotland that was a member of the EU, with another 11% not sure.”

    And 99% of those who did move would vote No in any independence referendum.

    Thinking even less clearly than normal tonight Rock. We won’t be having an independence referendum in an independent Scotland.

  142. Highland Wifie says:

    Yeah where is Heed? Definitely missing him.
    Please come back Heedtracker..

  143. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 9.14
    Yeah but he played with them in the house!
    I hope you know not to shit where ye eat….lol

  144. louis.b.argyll says:

    Aye, Rock’s chucked it wi that one.

  145. Ken500 says:

    Canada has a federal system. The federal states have (fiscal?) autonomy. They can raise and lower their own taxes etc. An entirely different system than Scotland in a union that is supposed to be equal where one country can out vote the other 10 to 1. Canada is quite different from the UK.

    Scotland is the only country in the world forced to have nuclear weapons dumped on it without permission against it’s will. £Billions of taxes and resources taken illegally and secretly. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

  146. Gfaetheblock says:

    Did the survey ask how many English people would consider moving to Scotland if we brexited and the the uk remained together?

    Or would consider moving to an independent, out of EU Scotland?

    Because the 12% stat is meaningless without anything to compare it against.

  147. Ken500 says:

    There has been tidal barrages in France since 1960’s. Rance tidal barrage, Dinard. Just as Scotland has hydro systems. Pitlochry etc.

    There were plans to build a tidal barrage in the Humber £9Billion. It was cancelled because of cost? Hickley Point could end up costing £Billions more, The last one built in Finland took twice as long 7 years and cost £Billions more envisaged. Twice as much.

  148. Gfaetheblock says:

    Robert peffers, a couple of questions.

    Where is the link to the data that English immigration is driven by property prices? In Edinburgh, the many English people I speak to have come for education, lifestyle and jobs. House prices are high in Edinburgh, but it has a large number of immigrants.

    Secondly, based on this quote, are you saying that we would need passports to visit family members in Carlisle, I though that was done away with idea?

    In any case if Scotland was in the free Schengen area and England, Wales and N.I were not there would be automatic problems for them getting visas and such like.

  149. Liz g says:

    Gfaetheblock @ 11.03
    Couldn’t tell ye about property price for anyone relocating to Scotland,except to say that given the Embassies ect,that will be opening,not to mention Scottish Oil,needing to be stewarded,there’s a good chance that the property market will expand.

    But I wanted to address your second question..

    No body can know,because of the trouble that Westminster has got England in.
    We in Scotland will almost certainly be in the EU arrangements,which are already set..
    So we know where we will be..
    But Westminster has yet to organize what its going to arrange for it’s citizens..
    So it would be a fair statement to say that Scotland’s relationship with England will be whatever the Westminster Brexit team managed to organize!
    As to what that will actually be…. Well ye really better ask Westminster..good luck getting an actual answer.

  150. ronnie anderson says:

    Socrates MacSporran 8.36 . I was referring to a channel 4 interview where a clown made that statement . I know people in Fergie & i wouldn’t include them as clown,s or in any other derogatory term , the post was solely directed to one interviewee & friends .

  151. TheItalianJob says:

    @Liz g at 11.36

    Good points. Scotland will just be the same for movement and etc in the EU. Regards movement between Scotland and England you are correct in stating this will depend on what is agreed between Westminster and the EU.

    Regards Edinburgh all the consulates will have to be upgraded to full Embassies and that will bring in new jobs and people. HQs for business and government departments located in London and elsewhere will have to be set up in Scotland in various cites including Edinburgh, Glasgow etc. All theses will bring well paid jobs to Scotland and increasing jobs and opportunities for all here in Scotland.

  152. Thepnr says:


    As well as the jobs. investment is the key and Scotland has been starved of investment by Westminster for decades.

    Our taxes instead have been invested outside this country. HS2 and Aircraft carriers with no planes my arse.

  153. TheItalianJob says:

    @Thepnr at 12.03am

    Spot on and you have had some great comments earlier on in this thread on the future of Scotland, it’s people and it’s potential which you and many others here on Wings and in Scotland know it is an enormous potential.

    It was a pleasure to meet you et al at the Arbroath Seafest in 2014 Indyref and will look forward to meeting up with you during Indyref2.

  154. Still Positive says:

    We have had many shared conversations today about what an independent Scotland could do and I remember our Yes Clydebank/Alliance had great conversations about shipbuilding on the Clyde and what it would do for a Scottish Navy and offshore vessels to protect oil wells and fisheries.

  155. Liz g says:

    TheItalianJob @ 11.51
    Well yes,
    as far as I can see, we know where we in Scotland are at..

    What the arrangements will be between us and England will be, is a question for Westminster..
    Mibbi the should ask Margrit nae family furriner Curren to help..(sayin that as a friend)

    Probably the very last time they get to decide anything for us,and,even then it will be only with the approval of the EU!

    It’s at this point I am minded to remember when EU member Ireland asked Nicola, “what can we do to help”…

  156. James Barr Gardner says:

    In the early 70’s I used to canoe on the Spey and Loch Insh. That’s where I met Clive Freshwater who ran the canoe school based at Loch Insh, Kingussie.

    Clive fought a long fight with land owners (Tobacco Barons) over the right to navigate the Spey, they fought against him because of the salmon fishing, they owned both banks of the river.

    However Clive fought the long fight raising monies from folk nights, he was an accompiished folk singer, and local fund raising events, plus donations, in order to fund a QC to fight his case which he eventually won.

    He died in 2015, however his legacy lives on with several local businesses he set up, not bad for the son of a Nottingham Shire railway man.

    No ordinary canoeist: new book tells of Clive Freshwater in his posthumously-published memoir, Making Waves: edited by Tom Drysdale.


  157. Thepnr says:

    O/T Has our Foreign Secretary lost his marbles, did he ever have any? Seems to have and now wants his own plane lol.

    Boris Johnson wants a plane as PM’s is rarely available – and too grey

    “The taxpayers won’t want us to have some luxurious new plane, but I certainly think it’s striking that we don’t seem to have access to such a thing at the moment,” he said.

    “What I will say about the Voyager, I think it’s great, but it seems to be very difficult to get hold of. It never seems to be available. I don’t know who uses it, but it never seems to be available. And also, why does it have to be grey?”

    Johnson’s remarks follow his public support for a new royal yacht and a series of commemorative stamps, to “show the world we’ve got Brexit licked”.

  158. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Sorry, dozed off after my tea, and my exertions at the keyboard, but that’s getting even worse, I think I’ll stop while I’m ahead. Wonder if Heed has eloped with his Slovenian girlfriend? She’s a good kisser apparently.

    I had a look at Average’s twitter, haven’t for a long time, seems Kidd is a council member for Those Channel Islands and Average was there too at that funny meeting of the few dozen remaining Unionists in the (allegedly) British Isles, so few they had to disinter Murphy and Darling! Also noticed that he’s become even more obsessive and is now retweeting himself. Twice I could be bothered seeing. Oh dear.

  159. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @1.10
    Ah thought you had been snibed by a grown up..
    Anyhoo I wiz busy writing a long sacrcastic reply to Thepnr aboot Westminster wantin an “Air Force One” but it didn’t go through.
    But I do caution ye
    Playing wi Yoons and Trolls is wan thing… but the undead… be careful or before ye know it you’ll get more than a Sloverin girlfriend… you’ll be getting a peerage.. and being Scottish there’s no way of not consenting… Wondering how many SNP politicians will get the same offer.
    Mibbi that’s the whole point
    Jist sayin

  160. Stephen says:

    Lots of good European workers including experienced health care workers, engineers, teachers etc welcome as well!!!

  161. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    The undead are a good laugh as long as you’ve got the brass neck for it. Zombies are more of a problem, they just keep on going even when reduced to a shadow of their former selves. You end up feeling a bit sorry for them.

    Yes, the RAF has only 14 Voyagers which when you take off training and service, probably means only maybe 8 available, of which at least a couple would probably be needed for QRA as one scrambles every time a couple of Typhoons scamble, and there’s QRA North and South. Then there’s ops abroad like in Syria and Iraq, and exercises, all needing the limited refuelling capability of the few remaining Voyagers.

    And Boris wants one for his back garden. You couldn’t make it up!

  162. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 2.01
    Tell me or remind me..
    Whats a QRA?

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Sorry. QRA stands for Quick Reaction Alert, there are Typhoon fighters on standby in hardened hangers near the end of the runway (known as Q sheds) at Lossiemouth for QTA North (used to be Leuchars) and Coningsby for QRA South ready to take off within 5 minutes, crew standing (or sitting!) by.

    They fly off to intercept Russian Bear bombers and escort them around the UK, or to intercept a civilian aircraft that has lost communications and perhaps transponder, in case it’s terrorists.

    Scotland would need that capability as well, for Ireland I believe it’s the RAF does it as Ireland has no fast jets.

    One time for instance a few months back Norway escorted a couple of Russian Bears for a time, handed them over to the RAF who flew them down to France where the French took over and escorted them down to the Bay of Biscay. I guess the Typhoons would need refuelling, or at least the Voyager nearby in case of need.

  164. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, the Bears are Russian bombers, the Tupolev Tu-95!

  165. yesindyref2 says:

    QRA not QTA, type 🙁

  166. yesindyref2 says:

    Typo not type. Ho hum! Time for a cuppa …

  167. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, there’s Gove talking a load of emissions. He’s very good at it.

  168. Ghillie says:

    Everything is coming into flower =)

    This is an exciting day!

    Back in 2016 Nicola Sturgeon promised to set up a commission, headed by former SNP MSP Andrew Wilson, to look at the economic prospects for an independent Scotland. I’d kinda forgotten about it but here it is!

    ‘It is not a report about the timing of the referendum-rather, it focuses on the ‘why’ of independence and how we can use the powers it will deliver to build a stronger economy and a fairer society.’

    ‘In so doing, it heralds the start of a debate based on hope and ambition about the future of the country, rather than on the despair of Brexit.’ ( Oor Nicola)

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    You guys jumped the gun and are away ahead of the game!!

    Amazing thoughts and ideas =) Look what you’ve given folk space to do Rev!

    ( Any co-incidence in the timing of your astute polls and the release of this report?) So much is now happening after what felt like a long long winter =)

  169. Brian McHugh says:

    The Unionist bias in this is just laughable…
    Not archiving this, cos they add highlited text links like wings… The first link in the text is a complete joke.

  170. Kangaroo says:

    Looks like the A50 Court case might be going to the next level. Does anyone have any more info as the National has a paywall?

  171. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 6.26pm: “Gruinard’s the place for you”

    Haha! Perfect.

  172. Nana says:

    Absolutely agree 100%

    article from 2014
    Evidence emerges of Indyref vote scam

    Reminding one and all, that as things stand – digital ID numbers for all Scots, are enabling via @scotgov as at Spring 2019

  173. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I think I have an idea what might have spooked the BritNats.

    “Mark Carney says currency union ‘economically possible’”

    So did Mervyn King:

    Currency Union?

    Maybe in 2014 it would have been the right thing to do at the start (as per Eire) but who will ever know, we lost the referendum.

    But now, in 2018 why?

    Why would an Independent Scotland want to tie her shiny new currency to a basket case currency like the GBP?

    Jim Rogers knows the craic:

    Possibly the BritNats arses are twitching ‘cos Indy Scotland might just say “Keep your currency, we’ll start our own.”

    Imagine UK National debt:

    With no Scottish cash cow =

    Remember McCrone said this of an independent Scotland’s petro backed currency in the 1970s:

    “The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner.”

    They know we are leaving and they’ll be left neck deep in the shite with a very angry, impoverished population who believed they subsidised the Scots and who were promised that Brexit was going to bring them a share of glory and riches.

  174. Dorothy Devine says:

    Brian McHugh , just read that nonsense and then moved on to their ‘the BBBC is the most trusted because….’

    A laugh a minute !

    However, if you do have to issue lengthy statements of ‘we are trustworthy ‘ variety it is heartening to think that there have been many complaints and they are fighting a rear guard action.

  175. Nana says:

    A week ago the corporate papers were screaming blue murder about threats of state control. Yet now the government has given itself a real power over them they are silent

    ‘The DUP don’t speak for the people on Brexit’ – O’Neill

  176. Nana says:

    “English identity”
    Brandon Lewis speaking at the Bettertogether with the DUP event said
    The citizens of our country have created for themselves an inclusive & thoughtful English identity. One based on the values of freedom, fairness & justice. Principals that are not just shared in England under the St George’s Cross, but across our whole Union

    Mueller Asked About Money Flows to Israeli Social-Media Firm, Source Says

  177. Nana says:

    Donald Trump set to head to Scotland for golf during state visit
    UK government offers president golfing partners to keep him entertained

    Boris Johnson Says He Wants A ‘Brexit Jet’ To Help UK Conquer The World

  178. sinky says:

    Great article by Iain MacWhirter in Herald today on why Scotland should be an independent ifs…no buts.

    However the Scotland in Union letter writers getting their retaliation on Growth Commission in first so we need to start engaging with Unionist press to correct their misinformation.

    Hootsman going big on Snp attack on BBC without spelling out the actual submission to Ofcom.

  179. Macart says:

    Mornin’ Nana

    Yep, there’s a couple of firecrackers in there today. Leonard’s betrayal of Corbyn over the NEC VC vote’ll leave a mark. As for Caroline Nokes not having read the GFA? We are talking about the same arrogant cretin who likened the Scottish government and parliament to a parish council . THIS Caroline Nokes:-

    “I do not think there is any greater case to put a Scottish Government official on it than one from the Welsh Assembly or indeed any county council who wanted to come forward pointing out there was a specific shortage in their area.”

    Not the brightest bulb and certainly not encouraging for the people of NI. Tories are full of… who knew(?) moments. (cough)

  180. Highland Wifie says:

    Good morning Nana. Great links. Gardening on hold.

  181. starlaw says:

    That’s two mornings now that radio shortbread have been banging on about a currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK. Something is stirring in the wasp byke.

  182. Nana says:

    The very same Macart, a horrible disrespectful woman. Have to say the Tories really do manage to attract the worst.

    I see Moggy is lecturing Ruth, deary me imagine being in the same party as this bigot. He may go head to head with Ruth in a leadership contest, oh my choices eh?
    Biggest laugh, he reckons she is a ‘formidable’ politician Lol

  183. Nana says:

    Good morning Highland Wifey, nice day for some gardening or better yet watching someone else gardening 🙂

  184. Macart says:


    No. They’re not a very attractive bunch to be sure. They represent and appeal to very much the darker aspects of human nature. WGD has a good piece on their nature here:

    My own take on the affair posted btl. Also?

  185. Macart says:

    That Q.E.D. moment.

  186. gus1940 says:

    We have long been accustomed to the Scottish Tory Party being referred to as Ruth Davidson’s Party.

    However, twice so far this week in The National I have seen The SNP referred to as Nicola Sturgeon’s Party.

    Am I being unreasonably suspicious as to what is behind this departure from the norm?

  187. Nana says:

    Excellent pieces Macart

    I meant to add the latest Ginger Dug’s before the Trump article at 7.44 am, I remembered soon as I clicked submit.

  188. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    That Q.E.D. moment.

    ” EU to reject Theresa May’s call for Northern Ireland ‘backstop’ to be time limited “

    Indeed. Anyone with a few brain cells could see that happening! And yet, why was May et al allowed to fart about for another few weeks contemplating an impossible option?

    NI must stay in customs union AND pretty much in the single market, indefinitely, if no other solutions are found. No solutions will be found. So, NI stays.

    There’s a definite pattern. Waste a month or so no something which is a non starter, then turn to something else impossible. It’s all just a time wasting charade. And the media seem completely complicit.

  189. Legerwood says:

    Sinky 8.02 am

    Mr McWhirter’s article in today’s Herald is indeed a very good one.

    The green ink brigade of Scotland in Union are all over the Letters page of the Herald most days so not surprised that they are going to town on the Growth Commission report before it is even published. Spoiler alerts – by the time it comes out people are bored with it and have moved on so the spoiler tactics become the definitive version for many unless they see immediate rebuttals from pro-indy letter writers.

    The tartan ink brigade. If there is not one then there needs to be one to counter the green inky ones.

  190. Nana says:

    Campaign calls for Scotland to take a stand against

  191. Highland Wifie says:

    Cracking article by Peter Bell underlining the situation we have with the BBC.
    His comment re what what we are having to fight against in the Scottish Parliament is just perfect :-

    “British political parties squatting in the Scottish Parliament like a cuckoo in the nest of our democracy.”
    Says it all.

  192. Sinky says:

    We have to win, or at least neutralise, the economic argument for Indy. Therefore most letter writers / communicators should register at Business for Scotland’s independence ambassadors training programme at £5 a month.

    Report on SNP submission to Ofcom on BBC’s failings here.

  193. ronnie anderson says:

    Nana Today am looking at the world through ah new lens ( cataract removed from left eye ) but your hivin me wear it oot wie aw they links , yer dain that Overtime again slow doon an save the fingers fur the big push . Aw the best to U & Hubby xx .

  194. ScottieDog says:

    No doubt Leask will be drumming up stories of Russian interference in the forth coming referendum.

  195. Macart says:

    What it’s cost so far.

    “Real household incomes are about £900 per household lower than we forecast in May of 2016, which is a lot of money.”

    It’s going to get a LOT worse.

  196. Nana says:

    Aw Ronnie, if only I’d known, I could have had a day off 🙂

    Hope the op went well xx

    PS I’ll be having a wee holiday soon to give the fingers a rest and to give Wingers some peace, lol

  197. HandandShrimp says:

    I see Labour in Wales have awarded a 15 rail contract to a Spanish company. Prepare to be deafened by calls of betrayal from Labour…or maybe not.

    Labour a classic example of “do what I say not what I do”.

  198. hackalumpoff says:

    Robert Peffers @ 8:09 PM
    “That’ll be because those, “Tidal Turbines”, are actually not tidal turbines they are driven by sea currents.”

    The MeyGen project in The Pentland Firth is currently the largest planned TIDAL STREAM project in the world.

  199. Nana says:

    From the FT about that NI backstop

    How Britain’s departure from the EU stretches to mid-2020s

  200. ScottieDog says:

    I posted some rebuttals in a previous wings article. Here’s a sample of the claims you are likely to hear on Friday, and some responses I put together…

    Claim: The currency will devalue.
    Response: Devalue from what? It will have to be issued first and it will likely find a value which will be below other currencies. However, we have a very strong export base. The lower valued currency will increase the competitiveness of our exports. As exports increase so will the value of the currency. It is likely Scotland will run a trade surplus, something which rUK simply cant do.

    Claim: no one will want the currency
    Repose: firstly, we will HAVE to use the currency domestically, creating a demand for it simply because we will be taxed in it.
    So how about investors? Well what would you do if you want to make money on currency foreign exchange. Think of a currency at issuance which is undervalued. Look at the export potential of the country. Ask yourself what is likely to happen to the value of that currency as exports increase?
    (Investors don’t get caught up in ideological crap. They want to make money)

    Claim: No one will want to buy Scottish Bonds (what the mainstream call ‘borrowing’)
    Response: firstly bonds are just interest bearing accounts at the central bank. People buy bonds with EXISTING money. In other words the money HAS TO EXIST before you can buy a bond with it. Bonds are only a form of borrowing IF the government is USING a foreign currency. In other words Scot £ would have to exist or be created in exchange for foreign currency for someone to buy a bond from the Scottish central bank. The term ‘borrowing’ is a throw back to when currencies were convertible into gold.

    So what happens if on the sale of the bonds no one wants to buy them? Well the central bank can buy them if it wants. Note the Bank of England owns one quarter of U.K. government bonds to a value of £445Bn.
    Have a look round the internet to see if you can’t find examples of bond issuance which haven’t been fully subscribed. You won’t find any for countries which issue their own floating currency. Why? Because government bonds are the safest place to store money.

  201. Smallaxe says:

    🙂 It wisnae me!

    Dear R. Soles,
    It’s clear from the past week that Nicola Sturgeon will use anything, including stirring up a political crisis, to kick-start her drive for indyref2. Most of us Scots are fed up with it.
    The First Minister should be concentrating on the day job: fixing our economy and focussing on our NHS, police and teachers, but would rather set her sights on another referendum.
    She said herself earlier in the week that independence would never be off the table until it is realised.
    Nearly two years ago, the SNP launched the Growth Commission to re-evaluate the economic case for Scottish independence, and they are publishing the report this week. For the SNP, this is the next White Paper, reigniting the road to indyref2.
    Nationalists will be using this as an opportunity to organise for indyref2, we must be ready. Can you help?
    If you are a fed-up Scot and want to stop another costly and divisive referendum, please chip in!
    Click the picture to donate towards our campaign against another unwanted and divisive referendum

    Thank you

    Scotland in union

    Scotland in union · Scotland in union 3/9 Waterloo Chambers, 19 Waterloo Street, Glasgow, United Kingdom G2 6AY, United Kingdom

    You’re welcome! 😉

  202. Bill McLean says:

    o/t – can anyone help? I installed adblocker a couple of months ago and subsequently thought i’d uninstalled it. Now when I go to any of Nana’s newspaper links eg National, Herald, Guardian they keep telling me I have an adblocker on. I use Windows 10 and Microsoft Edge search engine!

  203. Macart says:


    Given the link I’ve just posted on the cost of Brexit to date for the average household, it’s clear that SiU’s idea of what’s costly and divisive differs wildly from Mr Carney’s.

    They may wish to re-evaluate their priorities.

  204. gus1940 says:

    I live in E.Edinburgh.

    If you do:-

    Re tidal barrages Have a look at the Tide Tables fill a flask with coffee and go and park at Fisherow at Low Tide.

    Watch the tide come in and at High Tide observe just how much water has come in – it must be billions of tons just at that part of the coast.

    Now imagine a barrage built across the bay with inbuilt turbines.

    Further imagine just how much electricity would be generated 4 times per day with all that water having to be squeezed through said turbines both incoming and outgoing.

    Given that the tides move round the coast, project that scenario all round Scotland and you have unlimited constant flow of power.

  205. Ken500 says:

    SKy Press Review yesterday? totally ignored the headlines ‘£900 worse off because of Brexit (not happened yet). To discuss Gove falling out from Hammond. Cameron ordered a jet. £10Million.
    Greedy phycho bastards.

  206. Ken500 says:

    Tidal barrage being built in Wales? Basin redevelopment.

  207. Smallaxe says:


    They may also wish to re-evaluate who they send their emails to.

  208. Ken500 says:

    Scotland doesn’t borrow. It might have to borrow till it gets the money in. If the Westminster Treasury will not comply. The rest of the UK lives in debt. Not Scotland. The debt is accumulated because of Westminster policies. They have taken £Billions from Scotland and squandered it.

  209. Macart says:


    Oh jings! 😀 LOL

  210. hackalumpoff says:

    @ Bill McLean
    23 May, 2018 at 9:57 am
    Which adblocker are you using?

    I don’t use MS Edge, I use Google Chrome with Adblock Plus on Win 10. It is 1 click to enable or disable the Adblocker on any site.

  211. Nana says:


    Almost pulled something laughing at R Soles 🙂

    Wingers do you want to become a Yes ambassador?
    Check this out

  212. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Smallaxe –


    Extraordinary – given what we already know abut SIU – that they’re still trying to chisel ordinary punters for cash.

    Utterly shameless.

  213. Smallaxe says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    You’ve no idea of the kind of people that ask me for money! This is an older one but I’ll keep you updated as I know how we all worry about them.

    Deary me!

    I have some very distressing news for you.
    Britain First HQ has just been informed that our leader, Paul Golding has been attacked inside HMP Elmley by two Muslim men.
    In true British spirit, Paul fought back against his Islamist attackers and luckily managed to escape with only minor injuries.
    The savage Muslim attackers have since been arrested and charged with the attack on Paul.
    Staff at HMP Elmley are considering moving Paul to another prison for his own safety.
    Please continue to show your unwavering support for our persecuted leaders at this most testing time.
    With your help xxxxxx, Britain First can survive during Paul and Jayda’s absence.
    Please ‘Chip-In’ what you can to support the movement – Today?

    Britain First
    Yours sincerely,
    Britain First HQ
    HOTLINE 0203 409 6216

    To un-subscribe click here: Unsubscribe
    Britain First, PO Box 119, Swanley, BR8 9DY
    Unwavering, that’s me.

  214. Baldeagle58 says:

    Nana says:

    23 May, 2018 at 9:38 am

    PS I’ll be having a wee holiday soon to give the fingers a rest and to give Wingers some peace, lol

    Great LINKS as always Nana. Enjoy your well deserved holiday when it comes.
    I take it that Smallaxe will be taking up the slack with the LINKS while you’re away?

  215. Bill McLean says:

    Hackalumpoff – was using Adblock plus, but thought i’d uninstalled it. Now updating as on advice from Herald website!

  216. ronnie anderson says:

    Smallaxe Ah hope when your covering Nana’s holiday break your no gonny post to many Britnat begging letters lol.

    Enjoy your well deserved break Nana xx .

  217. Nana says:

    Hey Baldeagle & Ronnie [get your eyes tested 🙂

    I’m not going anywhere just yet!

  218. HandandShrimp says:

    The sheer amount of noise surrounding another referendum from the Yoonish side suggests to me that it is “game on”

    I am up for this 🙂

  219. ronnie anderson says:

    Nana chist put that doon tae the imbalance in the ein ah’ll be ok when ah git the right eye done lol , but hiv ah nice holiday whenever it is xx

  220. Smallaxe says:

    ronnie anderson,

    Beggers cannae be choosers, Ronnie. Noo a’hm in hiding.

    (o)”(o) keek!


  221. Jack Murphy says:

    sinky began his post at 8:02 am today:

    “Great article by Iain MacWhirter in Herald today on why Scotland should be an independent ifs…no buts……”

    Recommended for all swithering No voters. 🙂

    Here is The Herald article:

  222. manandboy says:


    Lack of water in years to come will be a very major problem for England, especially the South East.

    This may have implications for Scottish Independence but also for English emigration to Scotland.

  223. Smallaxe says:

    manandboy, link fixed.

    Risk of water shortages for England warns Environment Agency;

  224. Chick McGregor says:

    Correction Robert. The Tay is the most copious, has the largest water volume discharge, in the UK.

  225. Derick fae Yell says:

    Too good not to share

  226. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Risk of water shortages for England warns Environment Agency.

    BoJo has the solution:

    The Power Grab UK EU Withdrawal Bill will provide the legislative power to make BoJos vision a reality.

  227. gus1940 says:

    Is there a list available of the water volume discharge for the major UK rivers?

    I am particularly interested in the River Forth.

  228. gus1940 says:

    Given Scotland’s enormous water resources would it not be a good idea to construct a national water grid along the same lines as the electricity grid.

    We have no shortage of pipeline construction capabilities.

    Apart from solving any problems of water shortage here in Scotland the grid would extend to both Gretna and north of Berwick and Independent Scotland could make millions selling water to England as their shortages become more and more critical.

    I reckon that it would be money well spent.

  229. Baldeagle58 says:

    Nana says:

    23 May, 2018 at 11:07 am

    Hey Baldeagle & Ronnie [get your eyes tested

    I’m not going anywhere just yet!

    Hi Nana. I KNOW you’re not going anywhere ‘YET’, but you said you were going on holiday ‘soon’.
    I was just wishing you a good break while I remembered you’re going.

    The way my brain works(?)I’ll possibly forget and wonder why Smallaxe is posting the LINKS and not yourself!

  230. Nana says:


    My own brain is wondering [most of the time] if I’m coming or going 🙂

    It will be a few weeks yet before I take a break and hopefully Smallaxe will be well enough to take over. Fingers crossed!

  231. Breeks says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    23 May, 2018 at 11:08 am
    The sheer amount of noise surrounding another referendum from the Yoonish side suggests to me that it is “game on”

    I am up for this ?

    It’s getting to the stage it would be rude not to have one, just so we can put them out of their misery, the poor wee loves. Hate to see them suffering so.

  232. wee bud says:

    I’ve always thought we could sell water in the future but I don’t think we will get what we are due from Westminster..

  233. HandandShrimp says:

    gus 1940

    Our water would absorb the limescale from inside their pipes and they would discover thousands of leaks they didn’t know they had. I know from my time in living down south that descaling the kettle was a regular chore. We came home and the kettle descaled itself back to shiny metal in a couple of weeks.

  234. TheItalianJob says:

    @Jack Murphy at 11.51am

    Thanks for the McWhirter link in the Herald. Particularly noted this section and the inevitable Labour “flogging a dead horse” Federalism proposals.

    “I am not a member of the SNP, or a nationalist, but there is no doubt in my mind now that Scotland should be an independent country in Europe. Federalism might have been an enlightened alternative to independence, but I’ve been writing about it for more than 20 years and it is less likely now than ever. Labour picks it up every so often, and Richard Leonard claims to be an enthusiast, but there’s no demand for it south of the Border, and you can’t have federalism in one country. Moreover, Brexit Britain is about restoring the unitary British state, which is why the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament is being curbed.”

  235. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi gus1940 at 12:50 pm.

    You asked,
    “”Is there a list available of the water volume discharge for the major UK rivers?

    I am particularly interested in the River Forth.”

    You could try this link:-

    I do know, from various documentaries that the Tay discharges into the North Sea more water than the Severn and Thames combined. When you look at the size of The Tay’s catchment area, that’s not surprising.

    The Spey is the fastest flowing…

  236. gus1940 says:

    wee bud

    If they need the water they will pay whatever we charge them.

    Where else would they get it? France won’t give them it for free and sea water distillation would be v. expensive.

    We and the French would have them over a barrel (of water).

  237. gus1940 says:

    Brian Doon —–


    When I was a boy in the early 50s I used to spend my summer holidays with an aunt in Slough and became familiar with The Thames between Windsor and Maidenhead and the plethora of pleasure boats on the river..

    As most people know the upper reaches of the Thames are only made navigable with a series of weirs and locks.

    For some time I have wondered if the upper reaches of The Forth above Stirling could be made navigable in the same way and create a leisure boating paradise to compliment the Forth & Clyde and Union Canals.

    I am not particularly familiar with the terrain but looking at the OS Maps it might be possible for boats to go as far as Aberfoyle.

    The weirs would of course have built in turbines – I understand that on The Thames one has been installed in the weir at Datchet.

  238. Chick McGregor says:

    OT I notice in the British produced oil reports of late some have been having another go at re-branding ‘Brent Crude’ to ‘London Brent’. Ho hum.

    ‘Brent Crude’ is named after the Brent Goose, most of the early finds were named after birds. It has nothing to do with the London burgh of Brent.

    Latest price $79+

  239. wee bud says:


    I assume we are independent when we are selling from a position of strength in your scenario? If not we will end up paying them to sell it to them just like energy.. The so called Uk single market is just a black hole centered in London.. Get independence then sell it to the highest bidder ?..

  240. Rock says:

    ScotsRenewables says:
    22 May, 2018 at 9:48 pm

    “Thinking even less clearly than normal tonight Rock. We won’t be having an independence referendum in an independent Scotland.”

    louis.b.argyll says:
    22 May, 2018 at 10:27 pm

    “Aye, Rock’s chucked it wi that one.”

    Unlike the usual suspects, I am happy to admit it when I have got something wrong.

    Yes, if they move after independence, that is fine.

    But I stand by my main point:

    It is the ultimate in stupidity to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England, in my humble opinion.

  241. Robert Peffers says:

    @Gfaetheblock says: 22 May, 2018 at 11:03 pm:

    ” …
    Where is the link to the data that English immigration is driven by property prices?”

    Someone on Wings commented within the past couple of days and Quoted figures. I had friends on Skye and the percentage of English and Welsh immigrants there is startlingly high.

    ” … In Edinburgh, the many English people I speak to have come for education, lifestyle and jobs.”

    Education is hardly immigration. Most students finish their courses and go home. Student accommodation is not the problem. I’m only 0.5 of a mile from the Perth & Kinross border and the numbers of former farm steadings now occupied by English retirees and immigrants is high enough for there being many years of complaints from younger Scottish married couples, born and bred in rural areas who have had to move away because they cannot afford to compete for houses in their home villages.

    Not to mention the many rural dwelling not only occupied during English holidays and the subsequent closure of local amenities. In many rural village the post office/café/newsagent/parcel delivery/local post bus was the sole amenity provider. When the village became too much full of holiday homes the village shop/Post office closed.

    Your argument of students n Edinburgh obviously also affects the other University towns and cities but is hardly immigration. Education, in itself, is an industry.

    ” … House prices are high in Edinburgh, but it has a large number of immigrants.”

    Err! That was my point. It is because of the immigration that prices are high. Not just Edinburgh but every other city in Britain – cities do tend to be cosmopolitan.

    Secondly, based on this quote, are you saying that we would need passports to visit family members in Carlisle, I though that was done away with idea?

    No I’m not saying that. The European Union and Westminster are saying that. What the hell made you imagine that when BR UKEXIT is enacted that there will not be hard borders right round the current United Kingdom isolating it from the Schengen Area of Europe.

    If Westminster does split from the EU that is exactly what will happen. The EU has the four freedoms and if Scotland becomes independent and in Europe while The Kingdom of England leave the EU then yes there will be a hard border between England/Wales/N.I and The EU and if Scotland is independent and in either the EU/EFTA or a Schengen Area member there will indeed be hard borders between Scotland & the Kingdom of England.

  242. KayGeeBee says:

    slightly O/T but re browsers I recently moved to duckduckGo which doesn’t store history so less likely to give more info to the search engine providers to target you

  243. gus1940 says:

    Following my comment earlier this week on The National starting to refer to ‘Nicola Sturgeon’s Party’ instead of ‘The SNP’ I see that today’s Herald is referring to ‘Nicola Sturgeon’s Government’ instead of ‘SNP Government’.

  244. Rock says:

    gus1940 says:
    24 May, 2018 at 7:50 am

    “Following my comment earlier this week on The National starting to refer to ‘Nicola Sturgeon’s Party’ instead of ‘The SNP’ I see that today’s Herald is referring to ‘Nicola Sturgeon’s Government’ instead of ‘SNP Government’.”

    Buy the fake “independence supporting” The National to keep its elder sisters The Herald and The Sunday Herald alive.

  245. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    There are two print publications that definitely support the concept of independence for Scotland – iScot and The National. I surmise that the public jury is out on the Sunday Herald.

    Daily repetition of remarks denigrating The National do no favours to the independence cause.

  246. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    What a lovely, lovely positive thread. It was a real pleasure to catch up with.

    (Even our resident rainy cloud with another of his typical sneaky late entries couldn’t spoil it. Sucks to you, Mr. Glum.)

    Even something unambiguously positive for indy from Iain McWhirter. Do I sense tectonic plates finally starting to move…?

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