Why the SNP surrendered
These are strange and grim times for the Scottish independence movement, but we never thought it’d ever get so strange that we’d be quoting Effie Deans.
Since pretty much day one, Wings has said that the only honest and honourable way to campaign against independence would be for Unionists to say Scotland isn’t a country, but a mere region of the UK. But they lack the courage to admit what their true beliefs are, and so they fall back on fear and lies disguised as concern, all cloaked in “proud Scot” protestations.
While that might be a miserable way to conduct yourself, it’s understandable, because the moment that you acknowledge Scotland as being a country, all the debating lines against independence crumble to ashes. They’re powerless in the face of the principle that countries should choose their own governments, for good or ill, because that’s what democracy is, and few people are willing to stand openly against democracy.
And what Effie Deans’ concession of this site’s cornerstone argument reveals is that Unionists finally feel safe against any threat of independence in the foreseeable future, and with good reason.
Ouch. But there’s an uncomfortable amount of truth in the above.
As it happens we disagree that 2014 was the best chance there’ll ever be. The period from 2016 to 2021 was a gift-wrapped gold-plated open goal.
There was an element of bad fortune that the SNP won their Holyrood majority in the circumstances they did. Had the Tories won outright in 2010 rather than having to form a coalition with the Lib Dems, and held the Brexit referendum in 2011, rather than 2015 and 2016 respectively, Scotland would very likely be independent and in the EU now.
In that event the SNP’s 2011 landslide would have been significantly bigger and the argument against allowing Scotland to choose its own path indefensible. A post-Brexit indyref 6-12 months after the UK voted Leave would, we think it’s reasonable to say, have resulted in a solid Yes win, because indy Leavers would have prioritised the “indy” part over the “Leave” part – especially if the SNP had pledged a Scottish EU vote in the event of a Yes, confident of victory.
But even in the circumstances we had, the SNP had ample opportunities to play what was a strong hand. We won’t revisit all the missed chances here, because we’ve spent the last seven years documenting them. But they failed because of cowardice, partly from the SNP but also in part from the people.
Jim Sillars was the first to identify the concept of a “90-minute nationalist”. Unionists and Yes voters alike will cheer on the Scottish rugby team this Sunday as they face the daunting challenge of defending champions South Africa in the Rugby World Cup, and if the former feel any awkwardness at singing the “rise now and be a nation again” line of our anthem, they’ll gloss over it.
But Deans correctly observes that as long as they aren’t too sorely provoked, these 90-(or in this case 80-)minute nationalists will leave it behind in the stands of the Stade Velodrome in Marseilles on Sunday evening.
Wings Over Scotland argued repeatedly during the indyref that a No vote should have led to the dissolution of all national Scottish sports teams, because that might have made people think a little more about what declaring yourself a non-nation in the eyes of the world really meant.
But as things stood, all the perceived risks were piled up against the Yes side.
And as Deans notes, doing so hands the initiative to the doubters to play on the fears of voters. All change is inherently at least a little bit frightening, and no matter how much of a mess the UK might be in at any given moment, it’ll always be impossible to PROVE that an independent Scotland would provide a better standard of living for the simple reason nobody can authoritatively predict the future.
Thus, uncertainty favours the status quo – “Always keep a hold of nurse, for fear of finding something worse” – and stacks the deck against the change side unless it argues on its core principle, not the opposition’s infinite army of imaginary phantoms.
The Leave side in the Brexit vote built their case around that simple core principle – “take back control” – and won against all the odds. Leave led in just 10 polls out of 70 in 2015, by a maximum of 4 points, whereas Remain recorded several leads of 20 points or more, but ultimately the simple message won through.
(We could spend all day listing the failings of the godawful Remain campaign, but we had an equally feeble opponent in Blair McDougall’s wretched “Better Together” and still lost because we let them set the terms of the debate. Wings has said many times that if we’d been in charge of the Yes campaign we’d have pinned it on a catchy three-word slogan of our own: “Let’s be normal.” That puts the No side on the back foot, where no campaigner wants to be, forcing them to defend what Effie Deans correctly identifies as the uniquely bizarre arrangement of the UK.)
But what has any of this to do with the charlatans of the modern SNP? After the 2014 defeat the party was recast in the mould of the ultra-cautious and risk-averse Nicola Sturgeon rather the the natural gambler Alex Salmond. At every setback – such as the wholly predictable 2017 UK election – Sturgeon backed down and ran away.
But Sturgeon actually created the setback for herself by backing down BEFORE the election, which set the tone and sent the message to nervous voters that it was okay for them to do the same.
Her 2017 manifesto had positioned the SNP unmistakeably as a Westminster party with plans to be in Westminster for years to come, rather than one treating escape from the UK before Brexit happened as an emergency priority.
Even two years later the SNP were still campaigning on “STOP BREXIT”, a whole-UK policy, rather than on saving Scotland from it by winning independence, implicitly telling their voters to abandon independence as a solution.
And four more years down the line, nothing has changed.
Leaving aside the comically fanciful notion that the SNP has been focused on independence in recent years, that someone with ambitions to lead it doesn’t want it to focus on its defining goal ought to be triggering red flags and alarm bells across the party. Stemming the SNP’s seat losses at Westminster elections is not what the party is supposed to be for. It’s supposed to lose ALL of them, by making Scotland none of Westminster’s business.
But the truth is that its Parliamentarians and core voters alike have been captured by the seductions of victory for victory’s sake. They enjoy success too much – whether it’s the plush London life of an MP and their hangers-on, or the simple pleasure of gloating over Labour and Tory activists – to bother themselves with the much more difficult task of securing independence.
So for the last six years they’ve been sending out coded signals to their base – and voters as a whole – that independence is now many years away at best. They’ve stalled and delayed at every turn, repeatedly kicking everything down the road to the next convention or the next conference or “once the terms of Brexit are known” or “once COVID is over”; they’ve floated the idea of requiring a sustained 60% in the polls (a near impossibility); they’ve talked openly about “devo max”; they’ve said there are “no easy answers” and “no shortcuts”, when in fact there are.
But WHY have they done that? Certainly a PART of it is sheer, naked, cynical self-interest. Most of the unskilled, unquestioning numpties Sturgeon stuffed the party with know all too well that they’ll never get a better job in their lives than being an MP or a Holyrood minister, so they want to milk it until the bitter end.
(And lord, if you think THEY’RE bad, wait until you see the absolute airwits the party is grooming as its next generation.)
But if we wanted to be generous to them just for the sheer mental exercise of it, we might posit that they’re simply reflecting the people they represent – a country which hasn’t really changed that much since the devolution referendum of 1979.
In truth, though, the SNP has cultivated that cowardice at least as much as it’s been a victim of it. Time and time again since the resignation of Alex Salmond, his successors have warned Scots not to dare to dream, and after years of dogged resilience from the Yes grassroots the party finally appears to have worn them down, as evidenced by the dismal turnout at last weekend’s Edinburgh march and rally.
That event weighed the movement down not just with a humiliating demonstration of public apathy, but also with a bundle of preconditions – EU membership, “progressive” policies hated by most voters and more – attached to independence.
But even Unionists know that there is only one real argument: is Scotland a country or not? That the supposed party of independence refuses to make that argument, let alone act on it, should tell you everything you need to know about them.
A pretty accurate summation Rev… sadly.
It could be worse: you could be English!
I had heard of “effie deans” but never read – christ what a pile of shallow, fucking shit
of course Scotland is a country
but hey, the UK is not that bad
going indy is a risk
– this is what “she” wrote with an increase in the signal to noise ratio of 100
she also wrote
corruption is not that bad
FKNELL – coz it went legit 100s of years ago – its called the city of london and is a virtual pirate haven hidden within the UK, writing its own laws
“there is only one real argument: is Scotland a country or not?”
National liberation (i.e. independence), decolonization and ‘self-recovery’ of ‘a people’ is arguably a great deal more than this. Independence is certainly about much more than ‘a people’ simply being ‘better off’. As all former colonised peoples and countries know, independence is ‘priceless’.
I’m not sure who Effie Deans is but any understanding of postcolonial theory here appears to be rather limited, a bit like our political and msm chattering classes. But then again, the pampered bourgeoisie within any colonial society do tend to be the last people to figure it out – and Murrayfield is aye full o thaim.
Great article … one wee correction , the South Africa game is on Sunday , not Friday
AUOB Edinburgh Sat. October 7th, 12:30 from Holyrood Park.
Ketmanism?
‘To say something is white when one thinks it black, to smile inwardly when one is outwardly solemn, to hate when one manifests love, to know when one pretends not to know, and thus to play one’s adversary for a fool (even as he is playing you for one) – these actions lead one to prize one’s own cunning above all else. Success in the game becomes a source of satisfaction.‘
Doctor!
Bang on the button, Rev. I have been saying much the same since circa 2013 when the Crawford and Boyle Report surfaced, commissioned by David Cameron to ensure rUK became the ‘continuator state’ if Scotland voted YES, and remained in the EU with the UK (and the UK might never have voted Leave either).
Its premise was that Scotland had been subsumed and was actually a part of a Greater England (as the UK). Although it was never used – because we lost the referendum – the threat was very real and could have scuppered us forever had the premise been accepted in the courts. Two eminent Scottish professors of Public Law put the opposite case: Profs. Walker and Campbell argued cogently and persuasively in the Journal of the Law Society of Scotland that we were a signatory to the Union and a partner according to the Articles of Union, the workings around the Treaty and Queen Anne’s intentions (contained in her speeches to the newly-formed British parliament).
Just think: had the C & B Report been used, and the case won, Scotland would have been a region of England within the UK, and, being so, it would have lost all of its national and international territorial and maritime rights as a nation and former state. The seas would have belonged to England, as would the terrestrial land rights. There is nothing to stop Westminster and Whitehall from resurrecting this abomination – except us, and we would have the mother of all fights on our hands.
I still worry that this is the route that Westminster and Whitehall will choose in future. Devolution will not save us because it is also being eroded as we speak here. I do not believe that the Scottish government has the slightest intention of working out how we go from here. Legal advice is routinely ignored, if even offered; patently obvious restrictions on what can be done within devolution are routinely ignored in favour of pointless, money-sucking court cases that get us nowhere; and idiotic policies that will utterly destroy our country from within are actually being fostered and encouraged.
There is a chap who claims that people everywhere are getting more stupid – can’t recall his name – but I think he must have meant Scotland as the starting point. Never before, in the realm of human endeavour, have so few caused so much havoc in such a short period of time – and they are so proud of themselves, they actually want to export it. Only in Scotland.
Rev, of course you are correct – Scotland is a country, everyone knows it is a country BUT our politicians won’t assert this fact.
So what can WE the people DO about this?
Pending an election, there is nothing that we can do to make our politicians change their approach. They have been sent the Edinburgh Proclamation. They have been told umpteen times that our Constitution was preserved by the Acts and Treaty of Union so they are empowered to withdraw from the Treaty of Union.
But they still whimper – or worse, assert and insist – that they can do nothing. What a bunch of irresponsible representatives, condemning our country and its people to poverty and powerlessness.
From what I can see, all we people can do is sign up to any project that is getting Scotland’s status as a country, and our People’s Sovereignty, recognised formally. It is urgent that we do this. Which means sign up on, and then RECRUIT others to, http://www.liberation.scot.
“Let’s be normal”
It obviously needs a little more but it would be a good way to sow the seeds of the idea in the minds of the unconvinced.
An idea for some Wings merchandise?
Much of this may be true but the main reason that the SNP have failed to capitalise on the 2014 referendum is their complete inability to improve the Scottish economy. We have witnessed 10 years of woke nanny state polices and nothing to build our countries finances. We almost have the highest taxes in Europe, where would you choose to set up a business? Ireland or Scotland? Salmond knows it, he spoke for years of our need to compete with Ireland. The SNP have turned us into a quango nation compared to Ireland where they are a nation of Entrepreneurs. We also have a Scottish parliament full of numpties with not a brain cell between. The longer the SNP are in power the further away independence becomes.
I still believe that with the right people, (courageous and bold) in government at Holyrood we can break free. They can inspire and instill courage in the public.
First of all a sign of intent is needed and that’s the removal of Scottish MPs from Westminster, for them to remain their whilst the right people in office in Scotland break us out of this jail is plain wrong.
It does seem that if we want independence, we need the English to give us a hand.
Effie has hit on a genius strategy – let’s campaign to abolish the English football and rugby teams. Just one big happy UK team for everything.
If that came to pass, we’d be independent in a fortnight!
Brilliant article Stu. PS get £20 Scottish pounds on the boys at 4/1 this Sunday. I just know!!
As it happens we disagree that 2014 was the best chance there’ll ever be. The period from 2016 to 2021 was a gift-wrapped gold-plated open goal.
Pretty much. I still hope something might change in the next five or so years when people see the SNP collapse, Labour fail & a Tory Party full of people even worse than what we have try to get back into power. I doubt it though. Realistically Scottish independence is over for a generation at least.
The other fact is that the UK has never truly dealt with recovering from 2008’s crash. Austerity in its Tory form (austerity actually started in a milder form under Gordon Brown) has been with us since 2010, so much of an entire generation under 30 only know poverty in their adult lives. 2014 was fought in better times compared to today & things aren’t getting better so until the independence movement injects some actual politics, policy and hope into it we’re going nowhere if we’re just waving flags, muttering about ‘Yoons’ and chasing unicorns.
We missed a prime chance after lockdown to push independence as the recovery. We could have had the balls to say to people we could reshape things that’d work for an independent small country as opposed to one breaking under the weight of itself & continued neoliberalism.
The SNP didn’t. The status quo was far too appealing. But hey, we’ll be able to vote for an indy Scotland next month…
Sadly, in my experience, reason(s) many Scots don’t want Indy is because being British allows them to hold and express, what to others, are unpalatable beliefs.
Being British legitimises (in no particular order) xenophobia, elitism, nostalgic imperialism, entitlement, superiority complexes, racism and “othering”.
The current British Government openly trumpets (no pun intended) these views with policies.
Try shaming the average British in Scotland by pointing out that they have hold unpleasant views – they’ll just point to Westminster as their guide.
Who is Ellie Gomersall, b y the way, does anyone know? How did he/she become the go-to person on every tv channel and newspaper? Do the Scottish media trawl the Scottish universities for English (and Scottish) students and elevate them like MI5 and MI6 used to do at Oxbridge? Just wondered.
And still nobody – including the good Reverend Stu himself, who is clearly a very gifted journalist and writer – acknowledges that until some serious policies are put forward, that persuade Scots people, Indy ain’t going to happen.
Central bank, currency, trade deals, taxation, health, social welfare, NATO, EU, and so on. It’s just a complete mystery as to what the first government of a new iScotland would do, and so no sensible people are going to vote for a total leap into the dark.
I thought that Alba might have something to say, but no. A childish website, with remarkably little to say about Scotland’s future.
If nobody makes a detailed argument and case for Indy, then it ain’t going to happen. The Scots aren’t stupid.
“after years of dogged resilience from the Yes grassroots the party finally appears to have worn them down, as evidenced by the dismal turnout at last weekend’s Edinburgh march and rally.”
Alternatively, the lack of turnout could be demonstrating that the Yes grassroots have recognised that today’s SNP is not serious about seeking independence. That event on Saturday was a piece of theatre and the Yes grassroots have given it the thumbs down.
For the real event -AUOB Edinburgh Sat. October 7th, 12:30 from Holyrood Park.
Arguably the most depressing article you have written yet Stu.
I don’t blame people for being worried about the prospect of independence. One of the reasons Yes failed in 2014 was on the issue of currency which was, and remains pathetic, but I also know people who supported the idea of independence til it came to the week before where some carried on to vote Yes and some didn’t.
We seem to fail is the idea of independence seems so alien to people as a concept that the fear has kicked in before any ideas or policy beyond that basic concept has been discussed. Although base support for independence is good it’ll never get over the line unless we start making the idea of an independent Scotland as just as normal as any other country.
Scottydog says:
5 September, 2023 at 2:35 pm
Much of this may be true but the main reason that the SNP have failed to capitalise on the 2014 referendum is their complete inability to improve the Scottish economy.
Neither the SNP or any of the other main parties has any interest in a wealthier Scotland. Economic growth is impossible with Net Zero, Net Zero requires living standards for the vast majority to go back to pre-1970’s levels, when cars and aeroplane travel were only for the wealthy.
If you’re not paying attention to the new Energy Bill, they are about to make it possible for any future UK Energy Secretary to invent new criminal offences via statutory instrument. They’re not doing this because they love the environment or want to make you prosperous, they’re doing it so they can jail people for refusing to get useless heat pumps.
You’ll own nothing, and you won’t be allowed to complain too much either.
Thinking of All those poor souls who gave their lives dreaming and campaigning and in times gone by, fighting for freedom!
being betrayed by your own is the most bitter of feelings.
MI5 infiltrated SNP has done a number on Scotland.
Sturgeon was compromised, bribed and ordered by the brit establishment to destabilize the SNP.
She was in their pockets since the early 1990s. Noone could rise through the ranks of the SNP/Ysn without her say so. New talent was subdued. You were either in the gang or ignored. loyalty to her was rewarded. eg. (shirley ann somerville!)
at the closest time to independence, the cashed in their cash cow!
we are witnessing the result! a sterile independence movement thanks to the SNP.
How sad!
Couldn’t yet read beyond the repeated stating we’re playing rugby in Marseille Friday rather than actually on Sunday against the World Champions South Africa .
Friday is the national Football team in Larnaca Cyprus. Trivial perhaps, but as a resident of England the sort of thing so common wether through ignorance or purposely.
all the hysteria about Independence is incidental. It really involves constructing a decent and viable social and economic system in which to live and raise families.
Those who want Independence “now” should cast their minds back a year or two and imagine what “Independence” under a Sturgeon regime would have meant.
Back to the drawing board, new leader new politics, tell the people the truth. Have we still got the will or the ability or are we as a nation completely demoralised? Because I believe we no longer care about anything but taking from society, rather than building or contributing
John C , there really isn’t a problem with currency – it’s called the pound and Canada ,New Zealand and Ireland used it prior to issuing their own.
The pound floats on the international markets and can be used by anyone.Just because an overrated pillock called Osborne said we couldn’t use the pound didn’t make it true.
@ASA
Your constant first choice of problem area is ‘central bank’. Why is that? Why do you think a central bank is such an issue that you constantly put it first?
To me, it sounds like you’re cannibalizing someone else’s lines but haven’t the first clue why a central bank is an issue at all, though that is how you present it time after time.
For the other issues, tacit knowledge is probably how most Scots understand these other issues. That tacit knowledge is that taxation, health, social welfare etc. will sit within the spectrum along which European countries approach these issues. It would explain why there might not be so much discussion, though somehow, somehow all this work goes on locally as the stuff of everyday politics.
Trade and currency are different but no-one seriously doubts that these can be managed. Only those contributing in bad faith, see giants where there are merely windmills.
As for Effie Deans, you would think someone with Serbian heritage would understand the persistence over time of national identity and the emotions attached to it.
lothianlad says:
5 September, 2023 at 3:17 pm
Thinking of All those poor souls who gave their lives dreaming and campaigning and in times gone by, fighting for freedom!
being betrayed by your own is the most bitter of feelings.
MI5 infiltrated SNP has done a number on Scotland.
Sturgeon was compromised, bribed and ordered by the brit establishment to destabilize the SNP.
Is this really true or just wishful thinking? :o)
Brilliant
First ever battlefield distruction of a Challenger II yesterday.
Another illusion shattered.
It’s not some kind of stuff up, it’s a deliberate tactic.
Put on a crap event with as much deterrence of genuine supporters as you possibly can without actually explicitly telling them to F-Off, then tell everyone there is no support for the cause (or that supporters are lazy and apathetic).
The Assange “campaign” has been very successfully doing this for a few years now. His genuine supporters aren’t lazy or apathetic, but there is a deliberate machine effort making the “campaign” a uselessly pointless embarrassment of a joke, and therefore the real supporters can’t engage.
The common trait to all such campaigns is that the people in charge don’t actually want the purported outcome. And in both cases (independence and Assange) they have a small army of “true believers” who will keep it on that trajectory unless the others decide to make themselves heard one way or another.
Lorna Campbell @2:30pm
The Crawford and Boyle Report might be held in reserve but it’s the nuclear option because then it becomes an existential struggle and makes a messy divorce the only way out.
IMO SNP high heidyins are stupid, cosy, but most of all LAZY.
The last time I knowingly agreed with “Effie Deans” was when she said there should not be such a thing as aggravated crimes. I got pelters for it, but I think with hindsight she had a point.
Unionists diehards like Effie Deans must be feeling very secure right now to pen those thoughts.
How far we have drifted from our intended destination.
Is potpourri to blame at all?
I was in the south side of Glasgow the other day, and a lot of guys were angry about potpourri for some reason.
Rev, you linked to a piece you did a couple of months ago about Kelly ‘Covid Lazarus’ Given there. You shouldn’t be so hard on her. Remember, according to her, at that point she was basically dead, but then rose from her deathbed to go to Greece. Nothing wrong with her whatsoever. She must forget she posts photays of her on social media betraying her rude good health. Why somebody would write an article pretending to be severely debilitated, unless it’s for the ‘disability Olympics’ points some young ones prize these days, is beyond me. Does show what a sleekit wee liar she is, though, absolutely not to be trusted.
Rev, you linked to a piece you did a couple of months ago about Kelly ‘Covid Lazarus’ Given there. You shouldn’t be so hard on her. Remember, according to her, at that point she was basically dead, but then rose from her ‘long covid’ deathbed to go to Greece. Nothing wrong with her whatsoever. She must forget she posts photays of her on social media betraying her rude good health. Why somebody would write an article pretending to be severely debilitated, unless it’s for the ‘disability Olympics’ points some young ones prize these days, is beyond me. Does show what a sleekit wee liar she is, though, absolutely not to be trusted.
Excellent article Stu. Spot on as usual. For us, 24 hour, 365 day Independence supporters the match on Friday is between France vs All Black’s. What an opening game. Scotland are playing on Sunday at 16:45. Oops the bookies are giving an 11 point start to Scotland. Ah well they have been wrong in the past. Our countrymen will do well with the emphasis on our country.
One of the major gripes about Brexit was that it dragged Scotland out of the EU. If the whole idea is that Scotland wants to be an independent country, why make the key plan to join an entity with one of it’s key policies is to become a single country? ‘Ever closer union’. The plan is to eventually strip from member countries those things that allow them to be independent. There will be wealth redistribution. A shared social tax and spend. The EU is very clever. If big treaties can’t achieve its goals, it changes things one small rule at a time. No one change is big enough to rebel against and if you balk, they offer you something you want or threaten to remove something else. Sometimes they just offer key leaders cushy roles in the EU. The EU we left was very different from the Common Market we joined.
The desire to rejoin the EU is because the idea of being truly independent is too scary, so you seek to swap one master for another. Are you absolutely sure that the EU would be better?
A HouseJockAbroad;
“….ock aye the nue, I’m Scotch yea ken? We’re shite….” etc etc
There is no doubt, we are by our nature loss averse. 2016 should have been the big push, but the SNP leadership had been bought out by then and it was all over.
Even pushing the envelope of devolution in areas such as children’s rights, land reform, public energy institutions etc, only for them to be over-ruled by WM, might have provided the catalyst for people to call for an end to London rule, but the Scottish govt are far too comfortable and either lack the willingness or moral fibre to even try. The strong Labour affiliation within the 2015 cohort might explain why we are where we are.
Looking forward to how young James Kelly is going to take this post. My bet would be Stu is sleeping with Effie Deans or has anyone seen Effie and Stu in a room at the same time. Whatever the happy polster comes up with you can bet on it being very long and utter tripe.
George and Dan,
The nuisance matter of artesian layers. I strolled passed a great big Police Station on Sunday, walked inside and reported it to them. Coincidentally, it was in the press on Sunday. The print copy only, page 12, not on-line and so I cannot direct you to it. I’ve always had a lot of time for the Police and so far so good with them. The engineering institutions by the way were crap.
Craven cowards or a collection of cheap British made plastic dolls mouthing «naw naw, naw naw» meaning this is not the time and the time could be never?
Mac Pherson’s contribution is a disgrace, George Smiley would certainly have marked his file «mole».
What is being said is that Scotland in the Union is no match for the great outside world, so better stick with the Union and something might just turn up.
The SNP has institutionalized the dread begging bowl mentality of docile wee usefuls.
Alas, I do not hear the sound of the rumbling tumbrils and the honing of the apparatus to be rid of the clique.
For those who consider the economy is the key, what happened to Scotland’s Oil, even the prospect of that did not bring the masses into the fold?
Nationalism is multifaceted, as in the kaleidoscope, the facets have to engage in a seductive pattern but unlike that device the pattern is never left to mere chance.
«The Psychology of Seduction: How to truly succeed as a political force»
Unlikely to be a current SNP imprint.
Might we contrive to stop using the expression «the case for independence». Independence that «thing» even threatened coral atolls in the Pacific ocean take for normal
Why pray is there no «case for non independence»?
Elie Gomersall is a young English man who dresses as a woman and writes pish I The National.i believe he is in the Green Pervo Party.
He was/is something in student politics, I think through one of our Micky Mouse pretendy ‘universities’.
Apparently he is tipped for future greatness once he gets his self-declared ahm really a wummen certificate, but will hold on to his dick.
Well, someone has to!
The “independence” of which the Scotnaz prattle is a pretendy independence, a counterfeit independence, a fearty independence. They propose to submit the country to domination by the EU (i.e. by Germany and France) and by NATO (i.e. by the USA).
Who worth tuppence could possibly vote for such an entirely unmanly independence? An independence in name only.
I don’t entirely agree that Scotland is not a country we certainly used to be a country and still can be, but I do agree that a precondition of a No vote in 2014 would mean the removal of any international representation in sporting events football, rugby etc if for no other reason than to show the 90 minute Scots what a country is.
But that said isn’t it the case that the majority of native born Scots did in fact vote to be a proper country so isn’t that really the problem here, we did vote to be a proper country but our friends from the south amongst other non Scots decided otherwise.
Not everyone is a born nationalist. Not everyone cares about their country. They have to be inspired to care. The real problem is that at no point have the SNP attempted to theoretically grapple with what unites Scotland as a polity, culturally, intellectually or historically, nor to develop that in any way which would point to an independent future.
Instead they borrow ideas from globalist technocrats abroad, slam them into the Holyrood legislative agenda and then say, “anyone who doesn’t support this isn’t wanted in the Yes movement.”
Hi rev,
Like many indy supporters and campaigners we already had Edinburgh auob in October in our diaries. So we will be going to that instead. The auob Glasgow march in May on a dreich day without the leadership and nod of the snp had 20,000 there. Jo cherry, Alex Salmond, mcalpine etc all speakers.
Last Saturday was an unofficial contest between the business and the movement. I personally reckon Saturday is showing the movement has the upper hand now.( Next auob march in Edinburgh will either confirm or reject that notion). So from that perspective the snp have mucked up. They’d to get a big turnout and they didn’t.
However There will be more there in October. Activists know when it’s grassroots instead of AstroTurf. In saying that I’m glad last Saturday wasn’t a total wipeout.
The real telling points instead of the marches will be rutherglen and then the last chance saloon conference for the snp in October. Watch out for chain of freedom too which is grassroots. However that’ll be tough to complete on due to cost of living crisis and still some cognitive dissonance Going on and if the ambitious target isn’t achieved then the unionists will guffaw. But the folk behind it are genuine. Like auob are and common weal are. To them the movement is the motivation and not the business.
Just an apt observation I came across by chance. – Obviously, you dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that your objective is never going to work by just replacing one failed charlatan with another, unless of course the apparatchiks are seriously delusional and the general public wholly gulllible.
‘One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.’
Carl Sagan (Book: The Demon-Haunted World)
The question is, do the people actually have any power, given the apparatus of the state? Or historically, has that ship well and truly sailed?
The Feart Lion cartoon reminds me of one my parents saw in an Arabic language newspaper.
A man in a kilt is standing on a platform, a guy in the crowd below says, It’s true, there are none.
Not a pretty sight to be perceived as a nation of scaredy cat eunuchs.
Ha Ha Got to laugh at the THICKOS on the last thread insinuating that I support the team that was CREATED in 2012 called Rangers International Football Club that operates out of Ibrox that was bought by Charles Green along with some other assets – he had to call his new team by a different name because it is against Bankruptcy Laws to call a new company by the exact same name to give the impression that they old one is still exists to stop people just liquidating companies to avoid debt and then starting up again as if nothing happened.
Also got to laugh at this as I have been exposing how the Kings/Queens are MAFIA puppets of the Pope/Vatican and how the Crown is actually the Vatican’s City of London Private Corporation that is NOT part of the UK just as Washington DC Private Corporation is NOT part of the US and owned and controlled by them as well just as the Vatican Private Corporation is NOT part of Italy as well – all totally TRUE as people such as confused above are aware of.
I also exposed how the Orange Order is totally FAKE based on the FAKE House of Orange and FAKE Price William of Orange as the REAL House of Orange was a region in Catholic France whose male line had died out and a female in Holland from the female line hundreds of years after that just plonked that title on her son because it was dead title even though he wasn’t entitled to it and she never had the right to give it to him in the first place. Again the Dutch video “Pateo TV Presents Openness On Orange” on the PateoMediaInter Youtube channel exposes all of this.
I also exposed how this FAKE Prince William was sent over by the Pope/Vatican to retake Britain on their behalf after King Henry VIII was fed up having to ask for permission to do anything by the Pope – who owned and controlled England, Scotland and European countries and their colonies and he kicked the Vatican/Catholic Church out but he did not kick out their City of London Private Corporation and secret societies that bided their time until the FAKE Prince William took over on their behalf and the first thing he did on behalf of the Vatican was to set up the Bank Of England Private Corporation in their City of London Private Corporation where their Legal – NOT Law- system and secret societies are also run from as well. 650 MPs sit in Westminster and the Vatican’s City of London Private Corporation has on Remembrencer sitting beside the speaker to make sure that this Private Corporation “Parliament” does not make any decisions that interfere with any of the CORRUPTION that is being enacted by the City, Bank of England etc.
Yea that’s right a “Rangers” fan exposing the MAFIA Royals who work for the Pope/Vatican and exposing the FACT that it is the Vatican that owns and controls the UK, Westminster and Scottish Parliaments and Governments, Councils, Courts, Police etc and how they are all Private Corporations as I have exposed on my video The Democracy Illusion with all of their Dun & Bradstreet numbers that are used to trade them all on the New York Stock Exchange. Of course these comments will be from the other side of the same bigoted arse of the Rangers/Celtic fans who only support their team related to what school they went to or what church they do not go near and too stupid to realise that Scottish football is so crap and supported by only 150,000 people in this country because these people do not support their own teams – when these MAFIAS bring in their 15/20 minute cities football is going to crash big style along with most other small to medium businesses – all that travelling to matches against the Global Warming agenda SCAM.
All that information Santos Bonacci gives in that video re the Vatican in my last comment is excellent and explains EXACTLY the SCAM system we are all born into but the laugh is those people commenting re the Sovereign Citizen people such as Santos are even DUMBER than the people they slag off such as him – at least these Sovereign Citizens are on the right track re the Birth Certificate all caps name – CAPITIS DIMINUTIO – Bonded SLAVERY Scam even though they have not figured out the REAL scam is all of the Breach of Contract and Trust Laws being carried out by our corrupt puppet governments and political parties on behalf of the Vatican/Rothschild’s etc MAFIAS with no full DISCLOSURE.
Most people do not want to know about politics or what is really going on – they would rather be told soothing lies than the truth hence why they are so easy to sucker and herd into the agendas of these MAFIAS and their puppet governments/political parties. That was the reason the Romans came out with the term Bread and Circuses to keep the masses occupied while they carried on with their agendas and leeched off the back of those masses. Most of the masses are incapable of using CRITICAL THINKING to suss out the TRUTH for themselves including the people who are politically active such as quite a few on here. Many on her have shown they know exactly what is going on.
These MAFIAS and governments know that most of the masses are cowardly sheep hence why the Tories have a Private Company called Behavioural Insights LTD working with the Cabinet Office to put out FEAR propaganda to scare the people into carrying out any agenda the government wants to bring in – the SCAMDEMIC being a perfect example of this how they used the COMMON COLD Coronavirus and totally FAKE Covid to scare the masses into going out and getting the bio-weapon vaccines that contain the 98% TOXIC Graphene Oxide that is causing the REAL Strokes, Heart Attacks and Turbo-Cancers that are killing thousands of people every day all over the world. The government also spent £1.6 billion in the dying mainstream media to pay them to get the scare stories etc out re this SCAMDEMIC which was also to help prop them up. The people are cowardly lions and not just with voting for independence – that is what the cowardly lion is representing in the Wizard of Oz as well where L Frank Baum is exposing the SCAM banking system especially the gold backed FIAT Currency scam hence the Yellow Brick Road and exposing how the masses are total cowards especially when the man behind the curtain running it all are just weedy cowards themselves relying on their puppets to do everything for them.
The only politician I ever had time for was Jim Sillars because he spoke out about this scam banking/money system and unless you create your own Central Bank and print your own debt and interest and inflation free money you will never be free or independent. James Gibb Stuart a businessman and ex-SNP here in Renfrewshire has also exposed all of this in his book from 1983 – The Money Bomb (Government Debt). People have forgotten that the Icelandic people jailed the bankers and politicians involved in this banking scam and nationalised their Central Bank and abolished all debt and print their own debt and interest free money. That IS the way to get REAL independence and convince the mass of fearties in an upbeat way that they will be better off with their cost of living etc by doing all of this with NO need for scam taxes either – the people would rather have this than the “normal” way if they were actually told about this especially as that is what their biggest fear is if we went independent and no unionist party etc could defend this SCAM system that has been DELIBERATELY making everyone worst off. Wait until they bring in their digital currency with no cash and social credit/vaccine passport system that will be worst than China’s that all of our governments including the EU that many of you want to NOT be independent in just so you can go on holiday etc easier.
At least if Scotland returns to self-governing status we would have oor oan tax offices! FFS, that’s another hour and a half on hold to the UK’s HMRC trying to get a simple tax return form. Call got cut off at 4.55pm as they were shutting for the day. Sigh. 🙁
“Your call is important to us…“. Well if it was that important then you might have answered it a bit bloody quicker. I have been trying to get the form sent out for over a month now, but for some inexplicable reason the HMRC self-assessment office had been shut for over a month.
The twats only played one inane brain melting supermarket / elevator music for entire duration of call, they might at least have mixed it up at little or is the UK so bust they can’t afford the royalties to play proper songs.
The SEPA call earlier wasn’t any better. Did speak to a human at least, but all they could do was apologise about 5 times rather than actually manage to put me through to anyone capable of completing the simple task of checking something.
Many of their staff still working from home because of covid and office building repairs apparently, and still not over their cyber attack…
It’s not just a Scotland thing, the world is rapidly changing and we are trying to get on it before the gate is closed and locked. No longer can we rely on established institutions to look after us.
The introduction to a recent piece by Jonathan Cook (below), unrelated to Independence yet explains this very well. The Yes movement has been split, and confirmed in Edinburgh on Saturday that there is an established institution we should cling to and everything will be just fine. Aye right!
“The reality is that most of us are not ready for the truth. We want reassurance. We cling to our comfort blankets because the idea that we live in a world in which our and our families’ interests are not paramount is too disturbing.
The idea that our fates are entirely dependent on a giant Ponzi scheme that might come crashing down at any moment from any one of multiple design flaws – an ecological crisis, a nuclear catastrophe, a pandemic or a hubristic mis-step with Artificial Intelligence – is simply too terrifying.
So, even as we mock a figurehead like Donald Trump, Joe Biden or Boris Johnson, we remain deeply invested in the system that keeps producing them. We need to believe – and just as desperately as a child refusing, a little longer, to give in to suspicions that Father Christmas might not exist. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, our societies, we insist, are on a continuous upwards trajectory named progress.
Few are willing to consider that we might actually be in a death spiral. So instead of doing something to change the world, we bury our heads. We ignore every sign, however blatant, of the system’s inherent dysfunction and corruption.”
The UK is a disgusting cesspit of curruption. It is run, not by political puppets but by an ultra right wing mentally sick cabal. A cabal with the vilest of underpinning ‘ideologies’.
Blair was Tory Plan B. Main task to emaciate the unions and workforce, Clause 28 and all that, because the Blue Tories would not have gotten away with it themselves.
Ditto, Starmer is Tory Plan C. Another Blue Tory Red Tory Tagteam tactic. This time, the main task is to sell off the NHS.
Very good insight Rev. In all honesty, I have all but given up on Independence – hanging onto that dream is just depressing and I would rather just move on with my life.
Should there ever be another opportunity then count me in – i’ll canvass and leaflet and arrange public meetings like I did before. I’ll be a foot soldier if you will but, I’m done arguing the case and viewing everything via the lense of Scotland vs rUK, as there is nothing to argue for because of Sturgeon and co.
I’ll just live out my days as a UK citizen, as that is all I have.
We have a Scottish Criminal Justice system just about to be emasculated by the SNP Scottish Government. We have Scots common law. We have separate sporting Institutions. Commonwealth games being an example. Some of our other Institutions are independent of the UK, ie Scottish Water. Of course we are a country. Gordon Broon muddied the waters by saying we were a Nation. No, we are a Country. A simple differentiation but gets to the nub of the argument. Effie Deans has opened Pandoras box. An unanswerable weakness in the Unionist case. We get rid of the SNP and all their baggage first. I have said before the refusal of the UK to grant a vote is 100% unsustainable in the long term. However the SNP have ripped the arse out of the real Independence movement. Coupled with their policy and delivery incompetence. The baby box Government after umpteen years in power. I am optimistic about Scotland post SNP.
Stereotypes abound, towel heads, camel jockeys, jocks, haggis bashers, paddies, taffies, frogs etc. note no English equivalent. ´
It is easy to live up to stereotype, act the way «they» would expect you to act i.e slighly, deviously, obsequiously.
The secret is to act just like «them» and appear even to think like «them» then in good time prime your «bomb».
Never give the colonialist what is anticipated. Delight in surprise.
Revenge is not always so effective when served over chilled.
No not “let’s be normal”
much better would be “Be More Normal”.
How much more will BILLY CARLIN reveal to we «thickos».
Assuming the revelations merit the time of reading.
If you have little original to say be prolix about it.
Good evening to all.
There are no rules stating a country has to be independent to be a country.
Not sure where Effie Deans gets the notion from.
Ah “historical reasons”. Pray tell, how does any rock on earth a country be but historical reasons?
If we cared what the English or the rest of the world thought about us, we certainly wouldn’t be a country. The fact we all do think we are, despite the huge attempts to push it otherwise proves the strength of feeling.
The unionists who built the Wallace Monument knew we were a country.
We don’t even need an example anywhere on earth to prove it. It needs no evidence as it’s a term belonging to the individual people collectively. There is no rule. However, in Spain they are now likely to amend the constitution to state their state is Pluri-national. The UK is simply another version of this. If the former amendment fails and the UK is interesting and unique to have a union of countries, so what?
It’s not even just us that understand the UK is a collection of countries, many people abroad know it too. To dismiss us as Yorkshire is obviously just simply wrong. Not annoying, just wrong.
You won’t find anyone more in favour of independence than me but I recognise some people genuinely believe we are better off as part of the UK. It doesn’t stop them believing Scotland is a nation. And there’s nothing morally wrong about that, in my view.
It would be bizarre if at the moment Scotland is genuinely close to majority independence (give or take) we suddenly start questioning whether we’re a nation or not. What the hell were we in the 50s when probably 1 in 10 would have voted for it? Ask anyone then if Scotland is a nation and you’d have gotten a clear answer too.
Independence will probably soon happen by default as the UK falters further as a state. We are likely, like the USSR republics, to simply find ourselves one morning unready but adrift. This is scary.
An interesting article but a couple of points worth pointing out.
52% of Scots voted Yes. The union is only intact today due to the colonial vote and the EU residents who ironically voted no to save their place in the EU against the warnings of people like me who said that a no vote was a vote for brexit.
To be fair, that 48% of Scots who voted no is disapointing but it is ultimately a minority and one that probably was boosted by the vow. If anything it shows that there is probably 18% of that Scots vote that could be won over fairly easily if we presume there are about 30% of Scots who are hardcore unionists much like there are about 30% of Scots who are hardcore Scottish nationalists.
So whilst I understand the 90 minute patriot argument, the evidence tells us that the 90 minute patriots are a minority of Scots boosted by non Scots.
Despite all of this, it is my personal beleif that Scottish independence will not be delivered by the SNP, they have acheived the final stage of animal farm, they are no longer distinguishable from the unionists.
I do believe Alba can deliver it though but it will take time. There are still too many people, too many nationalists that believe in the SNP.
I see Alba as being where the SNP were before the SNP made it into Westminster. Once they make that breakthrough and make it into the Scottish Parliament, they can kick on from there, but it will not be easy.
The fullness of time will open peoples eyes though. I remember when I was younger and I wondered if the SNP would ever win an election. I have now lived long enough to see them win numerous.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Alba can not replicate that success especially considering they are led by the man who created that success for the SNP.
So it is a long road, but I fell positive and I am proud of my 8000 patriot colleagues in Alba and with time hope to see many more.
No country has won independence without struggle and it has never been easy for any country.
I watched daily politics today with David linden representing the Scottish Nonce Party and Ben something representing the tories and some liebour female who could hardly string a sentence together a DAME no less, TBQH Linden is a moron with belief in himself but those other clowns were not any better
THIS is the dire state the uk is in , every political party is infested with these morons, Scotland is bad with the snp cabbages but the rest of the uk is NO BETTER and if stammer gets in it will be hell,I cannot understand people suffering the imposition of English voters stupidity in forcing these corrupt incompetent scum on us continually how they could not think independence could be a way out of this ongoing lunacy
@ Dan: “phoning HMRC for a tax return”.
I photocopied my return one year so my husband could complete one. I just deleted my reference and he wrote in his own. Do you know anyone who hasn’t completed theirs yet so you could get a copy?
Many moons ago I worked for the Revenue. In those days every town had a tax office and the public could come in without an appointment. Their file would be extracted from the shelves so the taxpayer could discuss their problem and the staff could sort it out. Simple and bliss for all concerned. The current system is sh…. for all concerned.
Good question! I’ve been wondering since last Saturday who Kelly Given is.
I think they are possibly both ‘celebs’/’reality stars’ The Scottish version of Katie Price or the Kardashians. You know these celebs who are famous for being famous.
Maybe you don’t know who they are because like me you don’t watch ‘Love Island’ or read Hello.
It’s so weird that these ‘celebs’ have latched onto politics here in Scotland rather than trying to achieve fame by appearing on ‘Love Island’ ‘Big Brother’ or one of these reality shows.
Any clue who Alice is?
Great song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VpF5kSDQjQ
Just to add, following more reading of this “Effie Deans”
I feel sorry for her if she seriously seems to believe the only reason Scotland considers itself a country is because we have football teams. Whatever makes her feel better about her arguments I suppose.
What the hell did Walter Scott think Scotland was? Or Robert Burns? Or Thomas Muir and the Chartists?
Indeed, my gran couldn’t stand either football or rugby. She must have been clueless about her nationality.
The guy with the Jacobite claymore with “Properous Scotland and No Union” must have been on his way to Murrayfield right enough.
What a weapon this Deans is haha
Effie Deans is an anathema to me and it is true that people are frightened of change. It should be remembered that well over 40% of the people who voted were not cowed or misled by the lies. It is also my understanding that if only indigenous Scottish votes had been counted then ‘Yes’ would have won the referendum.
Even so over 40% knew which path was best for Scotland.
That was the first opportunity and I’m with Robert Bruce on this one. There’s more than one chance and the people of Scotland have had the liars laid bare over the past years.
The first step is simple. Take as many Westminster votes as we are able. and only turn up to do mischief.
By taking the votes we are allowing Westminster to go on believing that Scotland is a region of the UK.
By using the members to disrupt proceedings when and where we wish is wielding the little power we have.
BUT that power, if used acutely, will begin as an itch and turn into full blown eczema and it will become impossible for central Government to resist acknowledgement that things must change and/or cease.
Some work at persuading the English that they should fight for a referendum to become a separate nation would gain momentum quite quickly, I suspect.
‘Mexico way’ will need little encouragement to believe that they will be much better off without Scotland.
The Irish know how to do it and that shameless man Nigel Farage is the real master at the game.
We send the wrong people to WM these days – fortunately many of them are leaving with a golden handshake next time round. There is time to get everything back on track quite quickly. England has little backbone. The UK is currently an unboxed jigsaw with lots of pieces missing and absolutely no idea what the big picture looks like. Pieces are being lifted and lain; scattered and blown; lost and left and WM has little credibility.
The time is as ripe as ever
Lots can happen on the Independence strategy front from now until the October conference.
The massive scale fraud squad investigation team, could be chapping on Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell’s Uddingston love nest again! This time, with Handcuffs not found in Peter Murrell’s separate bedroom drawers…
Defacto Nicola Sturgeon is now showbiz Sturgeon. She’s off to write her memoirs, at least the ones she can recall.
The SNP are expected to be getting absolutely humped in Rutherglen to Labour…
The pressure will mount.
Useless has pissed off our English Monarch. He’s not invited to Balmoral. He’s not welcome at the party. The Establishment will be talking about him…
And of course at the Independence Rally, for the Independence Industry… Humza failed to give the loyal Independence SNP activists a strategy to Independence… They will have went home dissapointed. But spirits lifted by the day out in Edinburgh. The patriotic flame will never die. And I respect that massively.
When the October conference comes, and there’s no strategy to deliver Independence. The end game is nigh.
For our cheating, lying, election rigging corrupt false minister using MI5 Voice voting systems as we know.
And then of course there’s Murray Foote, taking over from Sue Ruddick the architect of the Vow. To oversee the destruction of the SNP from the top down. I imagine he’ll be leaking a lot of information to his friends in the Daily Record. A rat at the head of the organisation… He must be wondering who he got into bed with, I suspect he’ll be bitten by the dogs fleas once again jumping off of Peter Murrell…
After which, the orchestration of the coupe of the SNP begins.
Humza Yousaf he’s on a shoogly peg. With the allegations about Cash for access…
Whats going on Humza, cash for access? What’s going on here?
Lots can happen from now until October.
The natives are restless. What do we want?
Independence.
What do the SNP want?
Some flowers for Nicola Sturgeon and Diva Max. Devolution…
If only they could have gotten away with it.
We’re it not for us meddling NATS…
Unmask the SNP …
Sarah @ 6:15pm, at one time, the main SA100 form issued to a taxpayer had a barcode. I am not sure photocopying would be a good idea these days.
Another day in the funny farm of Holyrood. It looks like our corrupt lying cheating, gifting politicians have been forced into the Holyrood chamber for a tax payer expenses paid afternoon at the school debating club.
I’m not going to waste my time listening to it.
The events I’m waiting for, are still to come.
Tik Tok Humza. Tik Tok.
I once lived in a democracy.
Everyone hungry to discuss politics.
It was wonderful.
It lasted 4 days. 14-17 Sept. 2014
Everything else pales.
Back in the day, when flying was more complicated than it is today, I wanted a flight from Switzerland to Southampton and back from Edinburgh to Switzerland. I was told it would be very expensive. And why I asked? Because you are flying back from a different country. So there.
Two weeks tomorrow since Rev Stu posted his “The Day The SNP Died”.
But the wake shows no signs whatsoever of coming to an end, so that the corpse can be cremated.
Just how much money was put behind the bar? £600,000?
I guess that most BTL commentators are so much in their comfort zone, endlessly picking at the scabs of Scottish events since 2014, that there is no chance of moving on.
Which is a crying shame, what with Rutherglen, WM probably next year, and HR in 2026 all to play for.
@Dan says:5 September, 2023 at 5:18 pm
You may have good reasons for not going down this route, but I find the online self-assessment process reasonably easy to navigate and understand.
Easy enough to find via the Google if you are innarested.
‘Let’s be normal’ invites the rejoinder ‘No,let’s be special’
Since pretty much day one, Wings has said that the only honest and honourable way to campaign against independence would be for Unionists to say Scotland isn’t a country.
If they said that then they would have to say there is no Union. Unionists would have to re-brand and call themselves something else. Any suggestions?
‘Reject the legal advice. Say it was a mistake. Say the government is not convinced it’s correct and it was insulting to say Scotland ceased to exist. Why? Because to say so is to deny the very thing they’re fighting for – the Union. I talk about what I call principled Unionism which works only if you accept your country is in voluntary partnership with England.’
Derek Bateman March 26, 2014 ‘An Auld Sang Gang Wrang’
@John Main 6:51pm
As any teacher or lecturer will tell you. Tell them what you are going to say, then tell them what you have said. Then repeat ad infinitum. And some of them will still fail their exam. People on the SNP payroll or on the ladder of me next, don’t realise the party is over. So 2 weeks in terms of 10 years of nothingness is new. Labour are 1 to 8 to win the bye election in Rutherglen. Why do I want to see a Unionist party sweep the SNP out of power? Because the SNP are also a Unionist party. Kevin McKenna summed up it. Ross is state educated, Humza and Sarwar were privately educated. Arse over tit in Holyrood when the Tories are capturing working class people.
@ASA 2:57 pm
If nobody makes a detailed argument and case for Indy, then it ain’t going to happen. The Scots aren’t stupid
normql kuntriz ar indqpendqnt. if the *skots douwnt undqrstand dhat, dhen thae *ar* styuwpid.
Hav it hwitsh wae yi layk,yir tawkin mints.
‘Surrender’ suggests they had something of value to offer.
My memory of 2014 was that many of the official yes feared a positive result.
They realised they might be both turfed out of the clover, and have to work
All the energy and good feeling was from unofficial sources.
Reminds me of the confused, lukewarm and confused, response to the brexit referendum by its leading lights.
It was a classic case of the dog catching the car.
Many of them, the majority of whom rely on life support from the political husk that is the current party, were very glad that they were not that dog.
As a unsure yes voter back in 2014 I don’t actually think its contradictory to say Scotland is a nation not a country. strictly speaking a nation is simply a large group of people connected by common descent, history, culture etc I think Scotland easily qualifies.
Back in 2014 it really felt that enough of that group of people were willing to get their hands dirty and muck in to create a country that would be nicer to live in than the UK. I include people I know that voted no as well in that group.
However it just seems that as a group of people we are just too fractured at the moment. Perhaps it the sheer amount of fault lines drawn across society at the moment.
Yes, all still reliably bonkers BTL. A bit disappointing that James Che hasn’t in the last 6 hours weighed in with some completely misunderstood history about 1707 and the Scots parliament, expressed over 5 long and ignorable comments, as if that was even vaguely relevant to modern life, but there we go.
I don’t want to parrot John Main’s “show me the money” refrain, but has anyone got any actual practical policies for a Scotland post Indy? Because without those, it ain’t ever going to be voted for.
Scotland will not vote for independence until the economics look plausible. At the moment Scotland spends the Barnett funding and still needs to put up taxes higher than anywhere else in the UK. It doesn’t have to be so, but if you are agnostic, but could vote for indy, you wouldn’t if you thought it would kill your financial plans. Scotland could start now to live within its independent means but no party will do it because they would never get elected again. If independence won but the economy hadn’t already been fixed, you would have a “People’s Vote” on steroids and the whole shambles would be reversed. The SNP know this and they don’t fancy it. It’s as simple as that.
Second attempt to post, and I don’t know why the first one didn’t get through.
Graeme George at 4:40 pm
“I don’t entirely agree that Scotland is not a country we certainly used to be a country and still can be,”
It’s a country that decided to be in a United Kingdom, as did England and Wales. It’s not a part of a “Greater England” as Lorna suggests, but it is a region of the UK. That’s not difficult to accept unless you’ve no argument except semantics.
Graeme George said,
“-isn’t it the case that the majority of native born Scots did in fact vote to be a proper country so isn’t that really the problem here, we did vote to be a proper country but our friends from the south amongst other non Scots decided otherwise.”
Is there any evidence for that?
ross
The Wallace monument was mostly paid for by public suscription.
This is such an important piece of writing on Scottish independence, and the abject failure of the current SNP. I mean, why should the likes of Jamie Hepburn ACTUALLY fight for independence, when he and his wife can earn a (literal, if you think about it) Kings ransom from merely PRETENDING to fight for Scottish independence. Ditto Wishart.
As for Stephen Flynn, wholly and completely captured by the games, nonsense and chicanery of Westminster. Beating the Tories AND Labour, and scroring ‘points’ in the chamber, more important to him than actual independence.
Rev Stu is right, in that the Sturgeon years WERE the best chance, possibly in the history of this sham of a ‘union’ with England, for Scotland to free itself from under London’s boot. But, alas, history shows us, that Sturgeon was a fraud. No fight. No burning desire to free Scotland, too busy ‘scoring points’, ‘winning’ and ‘winning’ again, without ever achieving ANYTHING of meaning for Scotland.
Til the day I die, I will always be extremely angry, that despite Scots voting to stay in the EU, Sturgeon and her clique within the SNP, stood by and did SFA while ENGLAND forcibly removed Scotland from the EU. She and her cabal should forever hang their heads in utter shame. They COULD and SHOULD have said NO.
So, here we are in 2023, with yet another fraud as ‘first minister’ of England’s Scottish colony. Humza has no fight, he has no burning need for independence. Career comes first for Humza and his SNP chums. Just talk about wanting independence, no need to bother actually doing it.
The SNP has really lost its way. No wonder London behaves with the utter disrespect they do. London knows that the current SNP are a sack of careerist shites, feart to speak, in case it offends their London masters. Happy to toe the line in the Palace of Westminster, playing by the rules of perfidious albion, whilst London f***** Scotland and its people sideways.
The whole lot of them, Humza, Wishart, Flynn, Hepburn, and their London-worshipping supporters should bugger off to London, get on their knees, doff their caps and take the money and favours they seemingly crave.
They could do all of Scotland a favour and never come back.
It cannot be said often enough, that Robert Burns had it right all those years ago in 1791,
‘..bought and sold, for England’s gold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation’
Source: https://www.robertburns.org/works/344.shtml
Cirsium at 258pm,
Exactly. I will be at the AUOB Edinburgh INDEPENDENCE march on 7th October. Will Humza? or Wishart? or Hepburn? or Flynn? I thinketh not. Charlatans, the whole lot of them.
AUOB INDEPENDENCE march, Edinburgh Sat. October 7th, 12:30 from Holyrood Park.
@paul says:5 September, 2023 at 8:01 pm
Good post, what you write makes a lot of sense to me.
That’s why I don’t buy into this MI5, blackmail, bribery, NATO subversion, conspiracy bollox.
Nobody in the upper echelons of the SNP have much of a clue about running an aspirational, first-world nation, or country. That’s why they have been dragging their feet these past few years – they are totally out of their depth.
As for the lower echelons, they don’t know what an echelon is.
Salmond could have made a try at it, but he could never have run the entire government by himself. Sure, many of the 129 can be dead weight, look at Oor Kirsty, but there has to be a cadre of around 20 capable, competent, talented, experienced, savvy individuals to make the grown up decisions and direct the voting fodder. That cadre was always lacking.
And still is.
There’s plenty of reasons why a mass SNP defection to Alba will be a bad idea, but the primary one is that Alba will gain no competent or capable personnel if that happens. And thus, Alba will be as ineffectual in office as was the SNP. New blood is needed.
But if it is easier to convince readers by stating that a mass defection to Alba will be bad because it will just transmit the infection of subversion from the SNP to Alba, that can be made to work as a reason too.
@Robert Louis says:5 September, 2023 at 8:32 pm
Sturgeon and her clique within the SNP, stood by and did SFA while ENGLAND forcibly removed Scotland from the EU
It was a UK-wide vote, Bob. The time to wargame what would happen if the different nations voted differently was before the vote, not after, and certainly not now.
But don’t tell us, before the vote, you were confident Project Fear had done its job. TS, eh?
Anyhoo, I’ll mark you down as yet another one who has been supporting Independence for God knows how long, but has never troubled to find out what the word Independence means.
Hint: It doesn’t mean rule from Brussels.
@ A Scot Abroad 8:18pm
We are used to denigration. And you provide a constant reminder. Scotland has an abundance of brains, unfortunately none of which is in power. I will take Holyrood has failed but not the Scottish people. You want differential policies?. Scottish Water retained in the Public Service in Scotland against the shambles of the Water Industry in England. Spewing out all sorts of contaminants to the benefit of super dividends of foreign owners. They are to all intent and purposes bankrupt. Practical policies? How about public energy utilities back into public ownership. So our old people don’t freeze. The Conservatives are promising reforming the spot pricing energy market by splitting the Gas and Electricity as a source of energy. The Labour Party are promising a public energy company, well sounds like a Nicola job. How about the gradual integration of public utilities using golden share principles and planning and licensing. What say you? Eventually it comes under public ownership given the assigned life of these projects. Or are least the money making bit of it. Leaving fair returns for investors though.
Morgatron at 239pm,
Aye a win on Sunday would be a real upset to all the BBC ‘pundits’ as well. We can but hope (Scotland is after all, ranked 5th).
A win would even get the 80 minute ‘patriots’ cheering.
As a lifelong supporter of the SNP and independence I know now the only route to Indy is to wipe out the SNP at the next Holyrood and GE . We need to start from the ground up once again .
The SNP have set our movement back 20 years . I’m hoping many more who used to vote SNP for independence will wake up and realise the games up the poley …….For now ..
A Scot Abroad @ 8:18 pm
“I don’t want to parrot John Main’s “show me the money” refrain, but has anyone got any actual practical policies for a Scotland post Indy?”
Maybe Scots could invoice the English Government for the soon £40+ billion per annum worth of renewable energy, rather than allow them to steal it from us? And then there is the £25+ billion a year oil & gas. And the est £20+ billion worth of whisky. And the £billions of food exports. And maybe Scotland could also re-organise its £100+ billion spend on imports so that we reduce our dependence on England’s major retailers, as Ireland has done.
Independence means control over Scotland’s vast resources rests with Scots, and we can charge a fair price rather than be plundered like a colony.
Robert Louis 8.32pm
It cannot be said often enough, that Robert Burns had it right all those years ago in 1791,
‘..bought and sold, for England’s gold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation’
So true – and what’s even worse is that there is no longer a gold standard. These Scottish ‘politicians’ and their pals are floundering in their self-induced slough of despond, desperately scrambling for obsolete copper coins thrown at them by a morally and financially bankrupt ‘British’ Establishment
“But they failed because of cowardice, partly from the SNP but also in part from the people.”
The bigger problem is the people, not the SNP.
As Rock commented on 2 January, 2015 (The Ne’erday Game):
“Unfortunately, we have among us the most stupid people on the planet. Given the chance of 300 years, those who should have known better voted No.”
John Main,
I’m not sure you understand the concept of sovereignty.
By your logic, any decision can be made for Scotland by the UK including “Should Scotland be an independent country?”
Now I understand there are people that believe that the rest of the UK should have had a vote in Scotland’s 2014 referendum on self determination yet at the same time believing that Johnny Foreigner in the rest of the EU shouldn’t have a say in the Brexit referendum.
I find the hypocrisy staggering but perhaps they suffer from acute exceptionalism or a recent lobotomy.
It’s quite simple really, the people of Scotland, which is a country, should be making decisions for the future of their country, this is completely normal.
Whinging about not being able to scrounge off the good people of England anymore isn’t really a good excuse to excuse yourself of responsibility for your own future.
If you haven’t the bravery or the wit to accept responsibility and accountability for decision making then stand aside for those that do.
Mo Salah, the Saudi’s have offered £250 million to make him a prince. Jota left Celtic to £25 million Saudi Arabia.
The SPL should have the finances to match the Saudi Arabian league. With our oil money. In another lifetime, in another planet and another universe.
A Scot Abroad says: at 8:18 pm
“I don’t want to parrot John Main’s “show me the money” refrain, but has anyone got any actual practical policies for a Scotland post Indy? Because without those, it ain’t ever going to be voted for.”
Yawn…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/spoiler-alert/comment-page-1/#comment-2771335
The Kingdom of Scotland has a much better resources to population figure than the Kingdom of England.
(Old stats so may not be 100% accurate but it gives the gist.)
KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND WITH ONLY 9% OF THE UK POPULATION HAS:
32% of the land area.
61% of the sea area.
90% of the fresh water.
65% of the natural gas production
96.5% of the crude oil production.
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% if the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
90% of the whisky industry
70% of gin production
KINGDOM OF ENGLAND WITH 91% OF THE UK POPULATION ONLY HAS:
68% of the land area.
39% of the sea area.
10% of the fresh water.
35% of the natural gas production
3.5% of the crude oil production.
53% of the open cast coal production
19% of the untapped coal reserves
38% of the timber production
54% of the total forest area
8% of the hydro electric production
60% of the wind wave and solar energy production
40% of the fish landings
70% of the beef herd
80% of the sheep herd
91% of the dairy herd
90% of the pig herd
85% if the cereal holdings
80% of the potato holdings
10% of the whisky industry
30% of gin production
The revenue streams generated by the current UK government policies means the two Kingdoms’ combined resources help to serve the UK population of 67 million.
So if Scotland returned to self-governance we could emulate current UK policies, which as a Conservative are presumably policies you are supportive of. So therefore with The Kingdom of Scotland’s much improved resources to population figures it would mean the larger proportional revenue stream generated by those Scottish resources would only have to serve 5.4 million.
Please feel free to reciprocate your suggestions on how an independent Kingdom of England will pay for itself.
The Scotland National Football team are fired up under Steve Clarke. Before a ball is even kicked. He is a man that commands respect. He’s our voice. He’s our leader.
With Kieran Tierney. Andy Robertson. Scott McTominay and super John McGinn.
Cyprus delight. What will be will be. We’re expected to bring home the 3 points and the glory. Fingers crossed!
Craig Murray recently commented on his blog that “The SNP is penetrated by MI5 from the top down and through and through.” I have no doubt this is the case. Nor do I doubt that equivalent saturation levels of infiltration are embedded within every institutional and societal structure of any influence in Scotland. Not least of course within the Truman Show propaganda bubble of broadcasting. As for online transactions, the term “Scotland” has practically been erased as a postal destination. Invasive conditioning has almost reached the level of farce — union jacks wrap and festoon even our bread and sugar and milk and eggs. Our very breath is surely being monitored. Time to shed any vestiges of naivety. We can take for granted that every conceivable game-plan for Scottish independence has been exhaustively projected and terminally check-mated. England will never let Scotland go. England cannot possibly let Scotland go. That has always been the case. America will support England. Already is. There is no democratic “good faith” at work here. Nor, depressing as it is to appreciate, has there ever been. For England this is an existential crisis at least as threatening as any in its history. This is endgame. That reality must sink deeply into our bones. Let us stop beating ourselves up. They just watch laughing from a window. Let us bear in mind that those arrayed against us are among the most sophisticated imperialist opponents on the planet. Yet we can still do this. Tomorrow is not yet writ.
The independence movement isn’t divided. Because frauds like Yousaf, McPherson, Flynn, Oswald and Roddick et al are not nationalists, and fail to be so by a very long way. They therefore cannot be deemed to be in the movement for independence.
The movement, the real thing, is for nationalists only.
@Alf Baird says:5 September, 2023 at 9:10 pm
Maybe Scots could invoice the English Government for the soon £40+ billion per annum worth of renewable energy, rather than allow them to steal it from us?
Soz, Alf, but how is raising an invoice a policy?
I really don’t think “it’s Scotland’s wind” will fly as an idea. The wind blows where it will. It “belongs” to whomever is prepared to make the capital investments needed to harness it and distribute its energy. That’s not just us Scots. As all the renewable infrastructure costs are being levied on every household in the UK, Scotland’s share of the bounty is less than one tenth of the whole.
Tell you what though. At Indy, as part of the divorce settlement, we could re-imburse every household in England for the amounts they have sunk into renewable infrastructure on Scottish soil and in Scottish waters. Is that fair? That’s certainly a policy.
Independence means control over Scotland’s vast resources rests with Scots, and we can charge a fair price rather than be plundered like a colony
Not in the EU we can’t. So who’s gonna tell Yousaf, me or you?
Me, I guess.
Soz again, Alf, but I think you are fundamentally wrong. Post-Indy, Scotland won’t own stuff that is currently owned by other countries, companies and individuals until Scotland works out a plan and raises the finance to buy these assets. Scotland won’t control anything Scotland doesn’t own, or anything Scotland doesn’t have the ability to defend.
And that means everything more than a mile off our coast.
There’s gonna have to be the mother of all divorce negotiations and they’re gonna have to be amicable cos otherwise, with control of the Army, Navy and Air Force and ten times the population, rUK will keep the lot.
@Breastplate says:5 September, 2023 at 9:17 pm
By your logic
As you haven’t specified what that logic is, it’s hard to tell if it is sound or flawed.
If you haven’t the bravery or the wit to accept responsibility and accountability for decision making then stand aside for those that do
Eh? Who are these paragons whose bravery and wit I am obstructing? Name names.
I’m not sure those oft-quoted (by Dan) figures tell us much.
So, Scotland: Oil, gas, fish, alcohol.
Rest of the UK: Wind, solar, beef, sheep, dairy, cereals, potato.
It’s a bit of a silly comparison.
@Dan says:5 September, 2023 at 9:28 pm
The revenue streams generated by the current UK government policies means the two Kingdoms’ combined resources help to serve the UK population of 67 million.
So therefore with The Kingdom of Scotland’s much improved resources to population figures it would mean the larger proportional revenue stream generated by those Scottish resources would only have to serve 5.4 million.
Please feel free to reciprocate your suggestions on how an independent Kingdom of England will pay for itself.
Three crucial figures missing from your analysis, Dan:
Percentage of the Army.
Percentage of the Navy.
Percentage of the Air Force.
Fill these in and you will have a light bulb moment, allowing you to clearly see how rUK will continue to pay for itself.
The idea that 61.6 million English are going to supinely sit there and be beggared as Scotland waltzes off with a substantial chunk of what currently keeps England afloat is very far-fetched.
David Hannah,
I’ll drink to the victory when it comes. In fact I’ll raise a glass to all the comments you and our fellow believers in the Scottish Nation make on the comments sections here. Good article.
Isn’t it strange that the things the SG manage to achieve are where they sell us out? Scotwind, freeports, shelving land reform, house building to the detriment of the punters, etc etc etc. They have proven competent at disposing of the stuff we voted for and implementing the things that seemed to meet British Government approval.
I don’t know how it happened or when but under Nicola Sturgeon the SNP became managers for the British state in Scotland. It would not be fascinating to find out how it all worked. Vital maybe to centre us again on Independence and move us away from the anti civil rights path we are on just now. I hope to christ the Polis are able and willing to do their jobs.
Dorothy Devine says:
5 September, 2023 at 3:27 pm
John C , there really isn’t a problem with currency – it’s called the pound and Canada ,New Zealand and Ireland used it prior to issuing their own.
——————————————-
Canada never really used the British pound – “In Canada, because as early as the 1850s the Canadian colonies were doing far more trade with the United States than they were with Great Britain. It made more sense to use a currency fixed to the U.S. dollar than the British Pound.”
Two things:
1) Common Weal’s “Sorted” answers the questions about how an independent Scotland could work. There are doubtless alternative answers, but they assembled a team of specialists and did a vast amount of work. Unfortunately for the nay-sayers, to read their book you have to buy it, or persuade your local library to do so.
2) Is there evidence that a majority of “native Scots” voted for independence, only to be thwarted by incomers? I don’t believe there is. There was no birthplace question on the ballot paper to definitively determine that; there was an academic study published after the event.
That study is the source of the 52.7% figure; the question was about where respondents were born, not about whether they considered themselves Scottish, British etc. The results may not have been weighted to make them representative.
Birthplace is an easily-established but clumsy method of identifying “native” Scots. Consider, for instance, a woman I used to know who died recently two days before what would have been her 96th birthday. She spent 95.5 of those 96 years living in the west of Scotland. The missing 6 months were of course the first 6, when her father was an economic migrant to England in the late 1920s. Are you really going to insist that her two younger brothers, who were born in Scotland, who had the same parents, ancestry and upbringing as she did, were “native Scots” but she wasn’t?
If not, and you are going to allow ancestry to come into it, a survey about birthplace isn’t going to tell you all you need to know.
Also, 52.7% is within margin of error of 50%, and might well not have been enough. Asserting that the majority of English-born voters voted No is on much firmer ground, but at the time there were not enough of them to definitively have changed the outcome.
It seems far more productive to me to address the 48.3% of “native Scots” who voted No, plus those who didn’t vote at all than to blame the “other”. I am of course aware that the demographic balance is constantly changing and that a time could come when there are enough incomers to sway the result; I don’t believe that was the case in 2014.
“Percentage of the Army.
Percentage of the Navy.
Percentage of the Air Force.”
Aye, but they’re not going to bomb the crap out of us just for being democratic. If nothing else, they’d have the UN on their case too, for what that’s worth.
Going by the recruitment shop here, they’re heavily targeting women at the moment. Could be for equality reasons, in which case I refer you to Bill Hicks.
@ James Jones
Please explain the reasons you think the respective percentage figures of resources in the two Kingdoms that make up the UK don’t tell us much and is a silly comparison.
NB. Scotland’s population makes up approximately 9% of UK.
GB Grid is currently burning gas in CCGT power stations in England to produce over 52% of current GB Grid demand. Around 50% of gas produced in the UK’s geographic area comes from Scotland’s geographic area, so Scotland with only 9% of the UK population would have a surplus. England also imports the gas it needs from the likes of Norway.
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Live gas data. (The recently “upgraded” page now has the option to click to see graphs for better visual interpretation of volumes arriving at each terminal, though you have t oscroll to see them all so loses the very obvious comparative flows the old page had)
https://data.nationalgas.com/gas-flows/latest
Yet Scotland is currently powering ourselves through renewables and still managing to export around the same amount as we are using down to England.
https://extranet.nationalgrid.com/RealTime
Another one to add to the ‘who is list’
Who is Rosa Zambonini?
What’s her claim to fame?
Love Island, Big Brother or the SNP?
crazycat @ 10:35 pm
“demographic balance”
Place of birth is one aspect of demographic and cultural change, ‘extraction’ is another, which raises the British-identifying number considerably. People tend to be heavily influenced by the culture, language, values and identities of parents and relatives.
As author James Kelman said: ‘if you want to know your identity look at where your family comes from’.
John Main @ 9:46 pm
“with control of the Army, Navy and Air Force and ten times the population, rUK will keep the lot.”
Good of you to remind Scots that ‘colonialism is force’ and economic plunder.
‘The Useless Idiot’ is going to be tackling ‘toxic masculinity’
He said:
“As men, we must listen, we must learn but we also must demonstrate what a positive male identity looks like to our young boys and to other men,”
This should be fun to watch.
To be fair to men sometimes they just can’t help showing their ‘masculinity’. I can’t imagine the First Minister would have wanted to stand up in front of a ‘crowd of 25K’ with his masculinity on full display.
Robert Louis @ 8.35pm.
It would be grand Robert. When our sports men and women do well , we do well . It has the knock on to the overall national wellbeing, that we can stand on our own, that we are a country and not a region of the UK. I will be semi pished and proud of our Jock Boks when we beat the world champions on Sunday and shut up those down South. I’m with you Robert. I just know.
I can see the popularity of this “effie deans”- she puts over the poison in little “wee wifey”-isms, like –
“a few countries are better off”
– aye like every small country peer of ours, that surround us physically – all are fantastically richer than the UK, and have economies 3 times the size of ours. Ireland (no oil), Norway (oil), Denmark (mixed).
Maybe UK govt should attack these biased figures from the IMF about GDP and GDP/capita – what does it all even mean anyway – they should produce a GERS(Ireland) and GERS(Norway) to prove that these countries are actually poor after all.
The people at the IMF, a lot of them are foreigners, possibly catholics. Billy Carlin has proved that the vatican is behind it all.
@Alf Baird says:5 September, 2023 at 11:19 pm
“with control of the Army, Navy and Air Force and ten times the population, rUK will keep the lot.”
Good of you to remind Scots that ‘colonialism is force’ and economic plunder.
My pleasure, Alf.
Of course, one man’s colonialist plunder is another man’s factual realpolitik.
As I have pointed out before, every Scottish asset is already bought and owned, the owners being foreign governments, multinationals and wealthy individuals. Not one of these titles is or can be legally challenged in any national or international jurisdiction, cos they are watertight.
It follows on, therefore, that the pre-Indy policies you were talking about earlier, but failed to provide, must be based on a mutually acceptable Indy divorce agreement that divvies up UK assets between their rightful owners.
It’s certainly not a difficult or complex idea to grasp, given that we have all just been through the same for Brexit. Endless, rancorous, divisive discussions and an eye-watering bill at the end of it that will take until the 2050’s to pay off.
And again as I have pointed out, rUK will retain the bulk of the present UK armed forces. They won’t be bombing us, as one poster suggested. They will be using these forces to control and protect what they and the international community will see as assets they have shared ownership of, if iScotland decides to go the “Hard Indy” route.
And the important issue to grasp when the valuable assets are miles out into the sea: the owners and operators of these multi-billion pound assets will be welcoming rUK protection and safeguarding with open arms.
So yup, policies to deal with all of the above issues are needed pre-Indy, coupled with an honest dialogue with the Scots people about the difficulties and timescales, and the realistic prospects for post-Indy prosperity.
The SNP specifically, and the Indy movement in general, hasn’t even started to get real yet.
TBQH, it’s consideration of these issues that make me realise why the idea of just handing the whole shebang over to Brussels for them to deal with is so popular with the numpties in the SNP.
But, of course, the EU will inevitably extract a high price from Scotland for “helping us out”.
‘Who is Kelly Given?’
According to a D. Express article entitled
“SNP supporter Kelly Given schooled by former MSP after call to decriminalise drugs”
She’s a reality TV star turned SNP campaigner.
Ms Given shot to fame on a Channel Four reality show and has since been a regular voice for the SNP and their indyref2 campaign.
John Main
“As I have pointed out before, every Scottish asset is already bought and owned, the owners being foreign governments, multinationals and wealthy individuals. Not one of these titles is or can be legally challenged in any national or international jurisdiction, cos they are watertight.”
I’ve told you before this is bollocks. Can you provide us with some “bill of sales” on these rights? On day of independence this is a different ball game laddie.
All assets in Scottish territory will be Scotland’s. The equipment these company’s are using is their only asset. To extract or move anything they need licensees (currently UK licenses) On Independence they become our assets to grant licensees. They do not own anything, the minerals or water sources(the owners of them/that/this is the country they are located.
As for the UK armed forces. That will be a lot more complicated than you think. Your idea that rest of UK will take everything lock, stock, and barrel is folly .The UK armed forces are an amalgamation of Scotland and England’s standing armies of the time. They’ll be no 8% bollocks and no mention of 8% in the “Acts of Union 1707.”
Enforce martial law under the command of Charlie boy and see where it gets you- Lmao. That never goes down well in Scotland – whatever century it is!
Oliver Cromwell is lang deid!
A man of many words is a man of few thoughts.
ASA @ 8:18 pm
Assuming dollar/pound parity, US national debt sits at about £250,000 per taxpayer (in fact it’ll be around 4 to 100 times that in reality since the debt clock most likely includes everyone on government payroll as being a tax payer rather than a tax receiver)
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
Accordingly easy way to do it might be to create a resources backed central bank with £5 trillion in assets.
That way every Scot with all Scottish great grandparents gets £1 million each to clear any debts, buy stuff back from new Scots and have some great holidays (irrespective of exchange rate)
Better yet if they get it done and dusted by this Friday.
How the English used banking to control the US.
https://larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2012/121204_jackson_release.html
@ robbo
Ach that’s just John Main’s standard go to response you’re responding to.
I’ve reminded him several times now that what I suggested didn’t involve changing the ownership status of our resources as pointed out in the following excerpt of a past post.
“But back to resources, and you again try to focus and divert onto the question of asset and resource ownership, ignoring that my proffered example makes no suggestion of altering the ownership status of these assets and resources, instead the change of Scotland returning to self-governance would mean that the revenue streams generated by licensing and taxation of these assets and resources in Scottish jurisdictional areas would be diverted to a Scottish Treasury, to be used and distributed across Scottish society made up of 5.4 million folk, rather than them flowing into the UK Treasury which serves 67 million folk.
We all well know how much energy companies profited recently while we consumers were paying the highest ever prices for our energy. Having a government that was empowered to better regulate and or slap windfall taxes on these big corporate entities would be handy.”
And looky here, this shows that a government can apply changes in taxation. I’m not aware of any lawsuits being lodged or foreign invaders coming over here to beat us up as they’re pissed off with this new windfall tax being implemented.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-oil-and-gas-tax-changes-set-to-protect-energy-security-and-british-jobs
John Main @ 7:22 am
“every Scottish asset is already bought and owned, the owners being foreign governments, multinationals and wealthy individuals.”
This was/is the situation in every colonial territory, until they become independent. Upon independence the former ‘administrative Power’ no longer has any right to do as it pleases within what has now become a foreign territory and jurisdiction. Any and all arrangements must be considered anew.
Either everything changes or nothing changes. What would be the point of independence if nothing changes and our oppressor was permitted to continue the theft of Scotland’s resources, and the obliteration of our culture, as at present? Lets remember also that colonialism is considered a crime, and ‘a scourge’, according to the UN.
According to most sources Canada used the pound from 1841 to 1858 – giving the country time to put in place its own currency.
Apologies, the link in my last post regarding England’s control over the US banking system should should be
https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2012/eirv39n49-20121214/04-45_3949.pdf
Sorry!
New Zealand and Ireland used the pound for considerably longer than Canada – Canada used it for 7 years prior to using its own currency , but it still used it.
1. Having a license to recover material/resources is not the same as owning material/resources.
2. Renegotiation is an actual thing.
3. A government can visit hardships on a company to make contracts unpalatable.
P.S. I’m off now to start a company so I can by the wind, there’s a fair amount on here.
@Alf Baird says:6 September, 2023 at 9:10 am
Any and all arrangements must be considered anew
I thought that’s what I was doing – outlining a process that requires a thought-through policy to be enacted in the run up to Indy and during Indy’s aftermath.
Soz an a that, but the “With one bound, Scotland was free” idea just won’t wash with anybody counting their brain cells in double figures or above.
Feel free to ignore the tortuous, exceedingly complex and eye-wateringly expensive negotiations that surrounded Brexit. Feel free to ignore the reparations and costs for pre-Brexit joint venture agreements that we will all be paying until the 2050’s.
Feel free to believe that Scotland won’t inherit a pro-rata share of the outstanding Brexit bill if we get Indy.
Soz again, but the grown ups in charge can’t ignore these things. They could, of course, pursue the “Hard Indy” route, the literal “With one bound, Scotland was free”. That will result in Scotland being an international pariah state for a generation, just like all other states that default on their debts.
Show us the money in that.
Anyhoo, you choose to interpret my real-world identification of real-world problems that need solving as some kind of ideological shortcoming.
Fine, let’s all spend another decade with politicians who think likewise, and then in 2033, get together to bemoan that we are still no nearer to having a viable, realpolitik Indy plan.
Of course JOHN MAIN is correct England will determine to not allow Scotland to get away «scot free» were the political union to break up.
England is neither generous nor foolish. This is something Scotland’s leaders must be determined enough to brazen out in a full on clash of interests.
What is within Scotland’s boundaries is Scottish, tout court. The rest is tough negotiation concerning joint British «assets» versus each nation’s considered «assets».
The usual «ploy» is nationalization of the infrastructural elements and let the international audience whinge as it will, although many may applaud.
That is why I believe the end of «it» will be rocky for both entities requiring a Scottish leadership of a steely calibre so far not evident, to match the «revanchiste» posture of London. The woke infested current squad manifestly lacks political will.
A British functionary described the break up of the UK as a «bare knuckle fight», a far clearer insight than displayed by any Scottish functionary.
We all live in hope. O Lord.
@TURABDIN says:6 September, 2023 at 9:55 am
Of course JOHN MAIN is correct England will determine to not allow Scotland to get away «scot free» were the political union to break up.
England is neither generous nor foolish. This is something Scotland’s leaders must be determined enough to brazen out in a full on clash of interests.
I may not agree with what TURABDIN says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it.
Haha, but in this case, TURABDIN has it spot on.
I’m sorry to hear that we are to lose John Main.
Zelensky has ordered the return of all agents abroad to return home.
Probably to join one of the anti-retreat battalions outside Klishchiivka.
Ruby – I thought it was interesting to read Humza Youseless blaming the abuse of women and girls on somebody called “Andrew Tate”, while preening about how virtuous Humza Youseless is.
Of course he didn’t mention Operation Cerrar.
Mar 1, 2021
George Galloway sent Twitter into a bit of a frenzy over the weekend after he announced his intention to vote Conservative as part of his drive to keep the United Kingdom together.
“England will determine to not allow Scotland to get away «scot free» were the political union to break up. England is neither generous nor foolish”.
LOL…the usual story when trying to divorce an abusive spouse.
Who said a “Union of equals” in 2014? Cameron? Darling? Brown? McDougall? I can’t recall… too many Yoon gobshites to choose from!
England is a busted flush with no real hard power or legal leg to stand on against an indy Scotland; both countries will be in NATO – will they send the tanks in? All they have is propaganda and dirty tricks, which they are good at, give them credit.
All contracts become void on day one of indy; the UK no longer exists, and if you claim it does, it doesn’t own now what it owned before.
– at the very least the contracts will be renegotiated, and not on the “handouts to my pals” basis the UK does with the oil companies.
Everyone in the world accepts this – which is why when they are “putting the fix in” it has to happen before; for example, the ANC sold out to the mining corporations at a secret meeting in Zimbabwe with the Boers. (And this is why SA has remained/regressed to the rich but crime ridden shithole it is, corrugated iron and open sewers a feature.)
What is ours is ours – the thieves get nothing. And once a true accounting has been setup, there will be a reparations claim; the anglos will never pay it, but it will be a useful negotiating point.
England’s destiny is destruction, but they have done this themselves, setting the fault lines long ago; the south will become wakanda/new liberia, the midlands a caliphate; southerners will be driven to the sea, and the remnant “northern celtic viking tribes” can be our pals. The city becomes a fortress and the pirate haven it always wanted to be.
– it’s an anchor floating to the bottom and we need a key for the legchain
floating -> falling
fuck autosuggest/correct that thing that changes the words on the fly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1nHVU1Qe4I
The SNP are going to steal more of your income to ‘fight poverty’ (especially the many SNP ministers living in motorhome poverty) and also ‘grow the economy’, because taking more money out of people’s pockets makes them richer.
Shona Robinson, a woman who has been outsmarted by velcro shoes, and Humza Yousaf, a man who has never had a job in his life, are on the case:
Mr Yousaf raised fears he is planning more income tax hikes for Scotland’s middle classes, ordering Shona Robison, the deputy first minister and finance secretary, to “further progress delivery of the most progressive tax system in the UK”.
Setting out a series of “outcomes” they had agreed, the First Minister said Ms Robison should “use our tax powers in the setting of the 2024/25 budget to further progress delivery of the most progressive tax system in the UK – by making tax policy choices that are informed by public and stakeholder views.”
If foolish words had monetary value, the Scottish Parliament would be encrusted with diamonds and gold instead of looking like a shanty town inhabited by the mentally unfit.
Despite the cost of living crisis, rocketing mortgage rates, and below-inflation private sector pay increases, they also want to tax you more for the nonexistent council services you don’t use:
The programme also promised to continue to draw up proposals to hike council tax for households in the top four bands, and to take “initial steps” on allowing local authorities to double the levy for second homes
That’s in addition to forcing you to spend several thousands of pounds on a useless heat pump that will kill pensioners in a Scottish winter.
Anyone in Scotland earning more than £27,850 pays more income tax than if they lived south of the border. Those earning a £50,000 salary pay almost £1,500 per year extra.
Get your salary sacrifice sorted out now before First Minister Fr. Dougal McGuire helps himself to more of your wages.
Yep, still completely bonkers BTL.
As for the idea that Scotland doesn’t need any policies pre-Indy, because it’s got natural resources, that’s just absolutely mad. Scotland does have great natural resources, but that means absolutely nothing without any trade agreement. The renewables are not valuable either, as every other nation within 500 miles has the same renewable resources, and because of energy self-sufficiency drivers, ain’t going to be buying from Scotland. Even a “Professor” from a fourth rate “university” should be able to work that out.
Then there’s the matter of a currency, central bank, replacing the 15% of Scottish GDP that’s going to go to England or Ireland post Indy, the 60% of trade with England subject to trade restrictions…
Yep. All still bonkers BTL on WoS.
Go Compare!
https://archive.ph/K2Elx
Any great projects for Scotland’s communications infrastructure?
When’s the next train to St Andrews?
I ‘bumped’ into ‘Effie Deans’ on Twitter and began to follow her(briefly). Her tweets were provocative(designed to pull in indy sympathisers and followers. The blog prose is rather ambiguous and frequently misleading. I came to the conclusion that Effie Deans is not what she/it.purports to be. I was also intrigued by writing style variations.
I don’t think it’s a real person but a team. I concluded it was a covert propaganda anti-indy outfit. I made a few probing enquiries in relation to her posts and was promptly blocked. There is something not right here.
As ever, John Main (10:10) speaks for England.
It’s almost as if he reads from that country’s playback.if as suggested, he has been recalled to the motherland, a great source of mirth will be lost to us.
But God speed!
Aparently Barrack Obama likes gay male prostitutes and smoking a crack pipe during gay sex.
Tucker Carlson interviews a man who makes these claims, the former president likes a bit of out of town strange.
And it it definitely wasn’t his first or last time…
I suspect Michelle Obama will be in the running for president
shouldn’t FM be changed to RM…? Regional Manager..
Kind of sums up the intelligence and bias of your readership Stuart that so many commenters haven’t heard of Effie Deans or choose to slag her off, despite your respectful acknowledgement of her arguments. You’ve referred to her plenty of times previously, but your readers prefer to stay in their wee echo chamber, reciting insults at anyone outside the echo chamber.
I’d find this rather disheartening if I were you.
Re Lorna Campbell sept 6th at
Comment on the effect of a court judgment that accepted the Boyle Crawford opinion’s conclusion meaning that Scotland would forever be a permanent subsumed part of the UK are not accurate. Domestic law and therefore domestic legal decisions do not override international law. In any case legal decisions generally (even an ICJ decision) are only one factor since statehood is established by a combination of political and legal circumstances. The B-C opinion is important as are all relevant high quality legal opinions obtained on the issues but is not some tool that the UK can simply chose to deploy when it wants and simply end the prospect of independence.
James Jones said;
“It’s a country that decided to be in a United Kingdom, as did England and Wales. It’s not a part of a “Greater England” as Lorna suggests, but it is a region of the UK. That’s not difficult to accept unless you’ve no argument except semantics.”
How’s this for semantics?
If the entire Kingdom of Scotland is a region, then so is the entire Kingdom of England. Also, since no region has any formal authority over any other region, no region is obliged to submit to the decisions of any other region.
But Scotland is not just a region of the UK, it is an entire sovereign half of the UK, with its own Crown, its own constitution, its own legal and justice systems, its own distinct population who, unlike any other population in the UK, literally own their nation’s sovereignty, a sovereignty which is fully equal to the sovereignty of the English half of the UK. There is also a clearly established legal border where all those different distinctions between the two ‘regions’ meet. It is a Kingdom, a country, a nation, and a people.
All of the above is equally true of the English region of the UK except that its sovereignty is owned by its MPs, and not its people.
Claiming that Scotland within the Union is constitutionally equivalent to, say, Yorkshire is a flat out lie, or a demonstration of deep ignorance.
Another flat out lie is the one that says that Scotland and her MPs are obliged to submit to English MP majorities in Westminster, allegedly because of a set of numbers and something called democracy. No, they are not. Yorkshire is so obliged, but not Scotland.
I’m perfectly happy with democracy, as long as it’s done correctly, but Westminster deliberately uses the wrong numbers to give an enormous and unwarranted advantage to England’s establishment in what is supposed to be the joint governance of the UK’s two
regionskingdoms.John Main said;
“It was a UK-wide vote, Bob. The time to wargame what would happen if the different nations voted differently was before the vote, not after, and certainly not now.”
That would be the ‘wargame’ Westminster used to design its UK-wide Brexit con. It was a UK-wide vote certainly, but its implementation and its outcome were fraudulently misrepresented by Westminster.
Westminster’s English establishment deliberately ignored what the UK is in order to get the English majority it wanted. In fact it’s been doing that since day one of the Union.
In constitutional terms the UK is a formal partnership of two sovereign kingdoms; it is not the partnership of 650 undistinguished constituencies that Westminster and its English establishment treats it as within the Union’s Parliament. There are thus two very distinct electorates in the Union, one of which owns the sovereignty of its Kingdom, the other owning no sovereignty at all. Each of those electorates do not just represent their kingdoms, they are literally the physical embodiments of their kingdoms. If they can’t speak for their own kingdoms, then no-one can. But they cannot speak for any other kingdom, and no kingdom has any legitimate authority over any other kingdom.
As such then, the UK’s population cannot be legitimately described as a single homogenous population, because it simply isn’t one on any level, and this is especially true and relevant for any kind of constitutional plebiscite.
One kingdom’s electorate voted Leave, but the other kingdom’s electorate voted Remain, meaning there was no overall mandate to change the status quo. But Westminster brazenly and unconstitutionally decided that England’s larger majority vote to Leave entitled it to declare that the UK as a whole had voted Leave, despite England not being the UK. It ignored the truth that only England had voted Leave, and pretty weakly at that.
Scotland’s much stronger vote to Remain was set aside as irrelevant, despite it being the settled will of the sovereigns of their kingdom, and one of the two sovereign founder kingdoms of the Union.
The entire exercise of the Brexit referendum and its consequent outcomes was a massive con from start to finish, and at every stage the will and interests of the Scottish partner in the Union of two partners was trenchantly disregarded, to its great and continuing harm.
First I’ve heard of the ‘Effie Deans’.
The core proposition the Deans-bot puts forward in its article is this:
This appears (once all the flummery surrounding the Deans-bot’s proposition is stripped away) to be the cornerstone of the ‘argument’ it presents in its article.
Deans-bot extrapolates (erroneously due to poor programming) from its main proposition that the Scots don’t really want independence and are only chasing handouts from their imperial masters in London (meaning England).
Deans-bot says:
The Deans-bot article is propaganda not argument. It flutters about from one incoherent meaningless ‘point’ to another using mostly football as metaphor for nationhood (it would seem that AI’s can’t tell the difference between nations and football teams).
I don’t believe the Deans-bot is attempting to present a reasoned argument; it’s attempting to influence minds using generalisations, unsubstantiated anecdote, insult, diversion and a dollop of deception.
I suspect the Deans-bot is some kind of AI tasked with generating propaganda – its programmers should be sacked on the spot for their massive failure to convince a single Scot that their AI programme is in any way a real person.
Ian Stewart,
“so many commenters haven’t heard of Effie Deans..” and “You’ve referred to her plenty of times previously,..”
Make your mind up, Ian.
I’m sure “Effie Deans” was pretty active, web-wise, in 2014/15. “She” was certainly being mentioned.
what is the connection between Yousaf and the new girl appointed to the front bench.
It should always be about sovereignty. That Scotland is a nation, a country with its own history and constitution and Scotland should be ruled by its own people for the benefit of its own people.
It should always be about Scots taking back control of Scotland from the Crown and Parliament of England.
But, Alex Salmond was / is a Royalist who was near the front of the queue with Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford to swear fealty to the monarch of England / UK head of state as sovereign.
Xaracen, Scotland is a historic country, but that’s pretty meaningless since 1707. It gets about 9.5% of the vote in a far larger modern country called the United Kingdom.
You can try denying that, or saying it isn’t fair. That’s your choice. But it’s reality. Scotland is in practical matters nothing more than a region of the UK with some quaint old laws that it’s allowed to exercise within the region. In many aspects, Yorkshire is equivalent or ahead or Scotland. That used to be a country too.
77th brigade’s efforts are improving, it would be churlish to deny.
Of course the big problem they face, will always face, is that logic, facts and morality are all on our side. A lot easier for us to win the debate.
But 9/10 for effort.
Question. Do you really put in the apparent time involved or do you have hand over shiftys?
None of this will matter when we’re back in the tender, loving embrace of the European Union.
Remember how brilliant everything used to be when we were in the EU? You couldn’t nip to the shops without tripping over children laughing and playing with gumdrop smiles next to a loch of free whisky. Our politicians were both wise and honest, dogs used to clean up their own shite, and you only saw Good News on the telly.
Has anyone heard from people living in France, Germany and Greece how things are going in the EU? They’re probably in flying cars by now.
The United Kingdom is not a “country”.
It is a unitary state, comprising 3 countries and a province.
Don’t feed the Trolls folks – you’ll just encourage them. Leave them alone and they’ll drift back to getting kicks from dodgy adult sites etc. all in good time.
Ian Stewart @2.28.
I am not sure if you thought I was slagging off ‘Effie Deans’ I hope not, because I was simply expressing an intuition or sense of unease. Have you had a look at the web site?
here’s the link https://www.effiedeans.com/2023/09/wings-over-britain.html
but take a closer look at her wide ranging output. Try some of the older articles.
I can’t find out much about the blog author. Can’t see anything on the website. I’d be grateful fo anyone who can point to some background information, biographical or autobiographical.I I am detecting an unusual odour here which I can’t quite identify. When I tried to challenge some of her tweets, or probe what she was saying I was blocked. It can’t have been because of intemperate language, because I am careful to avoid insult and use language that does not offend.
Wings over Scotland has a well established provenance. Same with Craig Murray and any of the many better known indy commentators regardless of agreement/disagreement.
We have a reasonable idea about the commentators we follow but I have no idea who she or it is. Is she retired?m/f. Is Effie her real name or a nom de plume, is she an ex teacher/civil servant/accountant/medic/journalist?
ASCOTABROAD
Do ever get tired of crawling on your wee Scotch toady belly?
Yorkshire was never a «country» in the modern sense. It was part of Northumbria which wasn’t one either, in that modern sense that Scotland more than adequately satisfies.
Yorkshire btw was never even a single administrative county. It is more of an idea.
A country is a recognizable political and geographical entity, with such distinctive features as languages, laws, customs, history and administration unique to itself and which it may not share with its neighbours.
ASA,
Surely at some point the penny will drop that the UK is a country the same way the EU is a country.
Do you have no sense of embarrassment concerning your puerile attempts at debate.
The UK has already conceded that the question of Scottish sovereignty is for Scotland alone, hence Scotland’s 2014 referendum and before you get your Y-fronts in a twist with the S30, the S30 an agreement to respect the result of SCOTLAND’S referendum.
I’m long past caring whether Westminster respects my country’s decisions or not.
I remember ” Effie Deans’ from 2014 telling us we shouldn’t , we couldn’t and we were feeble.
BDDT , you home safe and sound now?
Region like provinces is London adminspeak for the sticks.
The bits that might be conveniently ignored until the benighted inhabitants are sent out to vote for the usual pile of third (turd?) rank career Westminster politicians.
From my research, at one time the expression «London and the regions», which covered Scotland Wales was common usage. It may be BBC jargon.
That is now obsolete. However, the notion of superiority it expressed lingers.
Only Scotland has admin regions, England does not. The «regions» owe more to estate agents and such than to politics, identity or culture.
«Scotabroad» I fancy is old school in that embrace of regionalism.
Enough!
There is a legal maxim ‘ He who leaves the field of battle first (does not respond to Affidavit) loses by default.’
So the trolls should be engaged.
Try mockery.
“Laughter in politics is good” – Sir Nicolae Ceau?escu GCB
I was thinking about this a few days ago and thought I’d post it incase it passed the board by, I saw it in the Guardian/Observer just over two years ago. It is like we are living in a Viz sketch.
https://archive.ph/uoVKK
Turabdin,
The Kingdom of Jorvik (what’s now known as Yorkshire) existed as a unitary country from 866-901 AD.
Hi Dorothy D.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-82/#comment-2787933
On the pseudonymous «EFFIE DEANS»
From Amazon.
«After studying in Edinburgh, Cambridge, Copenhagen and Nizhny Novgorod, Effie Deans returned home to rural Aberdeenshire with a Russian husband. She is a well-known blogger about Scottish politics, works at the University of Aberdeen and is interested in Dostoevsky, Walter Scott and very old films»
Whoever the person behind the name the dissection of SNP, its smugness, its failures of intent, its wokery etc is a shower of reviving cold reason.
As others see you is a keep feet on the ground wake up.
Use the waking hours profitably.
A great article and touches on some reflection and conclusions I have already come to.
Indeed we should have and should still do put the uncomfortable truths into the light. Why do we get considered a country within the British isles yet are governed as a ‘colony with benefits’? We were told we were an equal partner where the evidence is clear that we are inferior. The brexit outcome is a clear proof of that
We need to show the falseness of the so called proud scots comfort zones.
That STOP BREXIT battle bus is also an open goal as the SNP failed totally and have been demonstrably ‘weaker for Scotland’ since and got a motorhome instead doing bugger all.
One last point, even if we had run a better campaign the Franchise is a big problem – Postal vote fraud is likely and should not be permitted at all due to the risk – like in many other ‘real’ countries. Secondly, the Right to vote of non Scottish born residents but born elsewhere in the UK of which eg. in Argyll is approaching 25% is another factor.
The (VEM) Voter Empowerment Mechanism MUST be called for at the next General election, where if a majority of indy minded MPs are returned then independence is then declared, the will of the people of Scotland by returning a majority of indy minded MPs will have been shown, and it should be made abundantly clear before the election that a vote for a indy MP is a vote for dissolving the union so there can be NO misunderstanding of what voters are voting for.
As soon as a majority of indy minded MPs is reached a declaration is made and negotiations can begin with the Westminster government. On the Westminster government ignoring or playing down such a result which would be the democratic will of the people of Scotland, UDI would then be declared immediately, declaring UDI is NOT illegal under International Law.
If this route isn’t implement at the next GE, then we move on to the next Holyrood elections and the same format as above MUST be implemented. We don’t need Westminster’s permission to go our own way. There’s no other treaty on the planet where one country has to ask the other country for permission to leave the treaty.
(James Che).
I know we’re not in a treaty but many Scots have been duped into thinking that we are, Scots are the most propagandised people on earth, and many Scots believe the BS that the foreign media spews out to keep Scots believing that Westminster is in control when its not, its the people of Scotland.
“The Claim of Right Act 1689, which remains law and a “core UK constitutional statute”, deposed a king and a Parliament on the grounds that the monarch, the executive, had wielded an ‘arbitrary and despotic power’ and so “invaded the fundamental constitution” of this nation.”
How to legitimately create a Convention of the Estates, which in the past held governments to account, one is desperately needed to hold our current Holyrood government to account, and Scottish governments of the future.
The first known answer on creating a Convention of the Estates must be that our Holyrood parliament cannot have any input as it is the Scottish government that we are holding to account.
It must be the people of the 32 regions of Scotland that chose the representatives who sit on the (CotE), one imagines that it must be an independent body that handles the voting system but it is closely monitored by local and international bodies in order for the result to have legitimacy.
Moreover the funds to hold the 32 elections and everything else that it entails would need to come from the public, because there is no way on God’s earth that a Scottish government will release funds, funds that will be used to hold it to account.
Once the Convention of the Estates is created and its given recognition via international observers as have being created legitimately and democratically via the will of the people of Scotland then the next step is to make sure the Scottish government accepts it.
Red @3:36
Cod was 20 euro the kilo (on special offer) couple of hours ago round my way.
High enough at half the price to merit discovery that (even) SG only attributes about 10% of that sales price as ‘value’ in terms of landings in Scottish ports:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-sea-fisheries-statistics-2019/pages/3/
Assuming the sales price is not being manipulated upward by sadists throwing 90% of the good stuff in the bin for whatever reason, and ignoring whatever is caught in Scottish waters and landed in English, & Spanish ports, etc its well worth correcting the total value for all fish landed to £6 billion and noting that it can then be expected to be between 0.03% 0.3% of the country’s total economic output based on official numbers for uk:
(https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02788)
Accordingly, assuming there’s no criminality involved thats beyond our competence, like for like performance would thus see an independent Scotland with a total economic output of between £2 trillion and £20 trillion (pa) – implying that that £1 million each from the central bank could be paid out every 2.5 years at most, and 3 months at best, if the deviants in charge would care to spend a bit more focus on the normal stuff 😉
Turabdin@ 4.03.
There are tomes about tomes about what a nation state is. It simply isn’t worth delving into the intricacies of archaic feudal conventions about dukedoms, kingdoms, principalities but it is of course very significant that Scotland WAS a kingdom and Yorkshire was a ducal entity. My rather feeble understanding is that these titles were about regulating power or expressing hierarchical relations. In hindsight much of these conventions are completely outdated and unimportant,
We can also mention identity- There is probably/definitely a Scottish identity(depending on POV) as well as linguistic variations, some of which are submerged in a wider overwhelming process regarding the migration of power, favour and people. The Scots language had common recognisable elements with English. Mary Queen of Scots(French speaking) was obliged to learn Scots(not English)when she arrived in Scotland, in order to conduct business in Scotland.
But maybe best to move on to the 20th/21st century where there is an established idea of democracy and the principle of universal suffrage. The current situation offers ‘some kind of nominal equality between the regions of the current UK. This principle of equality is bogus of course and creates many areas of contention. Is the value of a vote in Scotland commensurate with a vote in London/south east Pop 20 million or in the Yorkshire/Lancashire population centre with a population of about( guess)15 Million?
The existence of these inequities creates huge tensions in Governance which due to the complexity of the issues around democracy has led,I suspect ,to the electoral stasis in the UK.
The archaic fptp system is not conducive to good governance ,the house of ‘lords’ is a politically speaking, shambolic vacuous anachronism with the pretence of order only established by the ritualised attachment to tradition. The HOC is literally crumbling even without the addition of RAAC, and similarly harbours absurdities such as Rees Mogg-a 19th century balloonfilled with fart gas, and poseurs such as Michael Fabricant -about as much use as a pin-pricked rubber contraceptive.
There seems to be no will to escape the traps these ‘institutions create that discredit the idea of democracy and the value of a human being.
To me it is the overarching hopelessness of the UK democracy that kills any hope of democracy in any of the constituent parts of the UK.I say that guardedly because I expect there will be a shout of ‘Scots Wha Hae’ but I cannot see why Scotland(pop 5-6 m) has legislative powers and parliamentary status while the very populous(20 M) areas around Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds (ie ‘the north’ do not. A Mancunian child deserves the same as any Scottish child.
We can only grasp our potential when there is a more general reform of the hopelessly corrup Tory/Labour buggins -turn politics based on the predictable cycle of decadal decay.
As an Englishman who has lived in England all my life I do see Scotland and Wales and NI (and England of course) as separate countries. It just feels right.
But it makes me wonder of any equivalents elsewhere of separate countries ‘united’ by a political ‘union’. Not much immediately springs to mind except perhaps ‘the Basque country’ though that has little autonomy even compared to Scotland (I think). There’s Quebec but is that referred to as a country? Don’t think so. So it is a peculiar setup: countries within a country. I can see the problem and get Reverend Campbell’s analysis in a logical sense.
But I do think it wrong to say Scotland is not a country just because it is not autonomous because it ignores vital history. It certainly is not simply a region of the UK and so is quite different to Yorkshire say, even though the latter has a very strong sense of itself (but resoundingly rejected the idea of greater local political autonomy a few years ago primarily because people saw it as just a recipe for more bureaucracy and gravy train politicos, and they were probably right).
The obvious reason is that Scotland was an independent country for hundreds years, as was Wales though much further back, and whatever you think about the Union, it is in principle, a political union of different countries. The real falsehood could be that the UK is not a ‘country: it is a union. Whoever Effie Deans is, her understanding seems quite shallow.
ASCOTABROAD
OK, Jorvik, per se, was centred on York with surrounding tributary lordships I presume.
It was allied with the norsemen of Dublin too.
Its boundaries are modern speculations. Given its many vicissitudes as a kingdom it was in no sense a «country» as that idea is a relatively modern concept involving a good measure of stability.
Had it survived into the modern era however.
Might Scandinavia have extended further west and south?
All very diverting.
I was thinking about this a few days ago.
About a man living in a shed on Mull.
About Jorvik.
About an internet character. Effie deans
About uncomfortable truths (obviously AI)
You do know what gaslighting means, don’t you?
stuart mctavish says:
6 September, 2023 at 5:26 pm
Red @3:36
Cod was 20 euro the kilo (on special offer) couple of hours ago round my way.
Aye, but dinnae fash.
Hello Brian. Thinking about you. I’m moderating as per .
Hoping everything is going to be okay.
Good Dundonian ?
It all depends on what you mean by “country.”
Scotland was certainly a country in 1603 and in 1707.
However one might respond to the events in those years you needed to have the status of a country in order to execute them.
A king of Scots became king of England. Who annexed whom?
In those times kingship was not just symbolic.
“The Community of the Realm (Scottish people) was – and remains – the Crown of Scotland which remains intact. As the embodiment of the Scottish Crown, the people themselves, the Community of the Realm, are head of state not the monarch, who only represents the Crown/Community of the Realm. As such, the people are entitled to remove any monarch, or government, that fails them. (The very suggestion of which is treason in English law!) This is demonstrated by the Claim of Right Act of 1689 when the Convention of Estates, describing itself as a ‘full and fair representative of the nation’, sacked the king *and* parliament. The sovereign, the Community of the Realm, established exactly who is head of state in Scotland – and it wisnae the king! (Which is why ‘the right of the Crown’ in Scotland is so different from the feudal right of a supreme overlord which applies in England.)”
The Convention of Estates has been used in Scotland to hold power to account, and boy do we need to do that now, the (CoE) would be made up of representatives of the people of Scotland from our 32 regions, whether they are independent minded or not. Their job is to hold power to account for the will of the Scottish people.
The (CoE) has a precedent in Scottish history its not something conjured out of thin air, so restoring the (CoE) should be the proper thing to do to hold power to account and express the will of the people.
“The fact that Charles III of England will take, not a United Kingdom coronation oath, nor the legally mandated Scottish oath, but only the English coronation oath proves two essentially important things to those who aren’t too blinded by gaslighting to see it. It proves that there was no ‘Union’ but an annexation, a ‘kidnapping’, in plain sight, of a sovereign nation. And it proves that the treaty was a legal fiction, a fraud perpetrated to provide the appearance of legitimacy, (a longstanding British colonial MO) to an act of straightforward colonisation. Scotland has been incorporated into the colonial domains of England, as a possession of that nation, to be governed according to the English Constitution and under English territorial, legal and political sovereignty.
Both kingdoms ceased to exist in 1707 and a new ‘United’ Kingdom was formed. Really? The character of the Crown defines the character of its kingdom. As long as the English-only coronation, the English-only coronation oath and the English-only Crown institution define the ‘new’ Kingdom, there was and is no new, United Kingdom that replaced the kingdoms of England and Scotland. What we have instead, is simply England continuing under a new name. The oath that Charles takes on May 6th incorporates Scotland into his English ‘kingdom’, no matter what name it takes. It establishes English rules of governance and installs the English ‘right of the Crown’ in Scotland. And it is by the English ‘right of the Crown’, (that feudal right of the supreme overlord, in his capacity as head of state), that the theft of Scotland’s territorial assets – coal, oil, gas, renewables, water and more is legitimised.
The Treaty of Union never enabled such a switch or had the competence to authorise it. Westminster sovereignty is another English principle, and even if it passed to the new Parliament in 1707 it could hardly claim the power to retroactively extend the Treaty so that the Crown of Scotland was replaced by that of England. The Treaty was and is a fraud. A legal fiction for masking an illegal act of annexation – that thing the coloniser does.”
If you know what’s going on. – You don’t understand.
One for later on this month.
This is to remind you that the Salvo Freeports Campaign Group is having the first of a series of public meetings on Saturday the 26th of August in the Spectrum Centre, 1B Margaret Street, Inverness, between 1.00 and 3.00pm
The good news for those of us who live a distance away from Inverness is that one of Salvo’s members has very kindly offered to live stream the meeting on his YouTube channel. You can access the meeting by going to YouTube.com, the channel is @blitzmaniax1028
at 1.00pm.
For the sake of clarity, and honesty, I don’t really think Effie Deans is an AI; having said that I don’t know for sure, but she probably isn’t.
I was being facetious (sometimes I just can’t stop myself) in my earlier post because her article read, to me at least, as if written by an AI, and so I thought I’d paint her article in that fashion.
My view is my view and I would urge anyone interested to read Deans article for themselves and come to their own conclusion.
Or AM, Annex Manager.
A Scot Abroad said;
“Xaracen, Scotland is a historic country, but that’s pretty meaningless since 1707. It gets about 9.5% of the vote in a far larger modern country called the United Kingdom.
You can try denying that, or saying it isn’t fair. That’s your choice. But it’s reality. Scotland is in practical matters nothing more than a region of the UK with some quaint old laws that it’s allowed to exercise within the region. In many aspects, Yorkshire is equivalent or ahead or Scotland. That used to be a country too.”
Its unfairness is beyond sane doubt, it is also unconstitutional, and undemocratic, and the abuse it has permitted is also beyond sane doubt. What makes it worse is that it needn’t be unfair at all, a fully fair voting system is actually easy to design and implement in the UK’s context. The only thing that makes it hard is English establishment intransigence.
Just because Westminster refuses be held properly to account does not mean its actions are therefore legal and valid within the context of the UK, as they clearly frequently are anything but.
There is a lot more nuance and potential complexity to democracy than simple majority voting, and not every instance of simple majority voting is a valid example of democracy.
A voting system has to be relevant and appropriate for the context it is used in, and it must provide outcomes that must be seen to be fair to all involved, if the winners of a vote can expect the losers to properly accept an outcome they just voted against.
Scotland’s MPs are outnumbered around ten to one, so almost never win votes against England’s MPs, far, far less often than one in ten. Yet Scotland is a fully equal partner with England in the Union, both being Kingdoms with equal national authority, and as such it is fully entitled to an equal say in the UK’s governance.
The context of those votes is provided by the Treaty, and nothing in it requires Scotland to be the junior partner in this Union, and England’s establishment has no right or authority to treat it as one. The Treaty does not give any authority over Scotland or its representatives to England or its MPs, for the simple reason that Westminster’s authority over Scotland is derived directly from Scotland’s own MPs in the UK parliament, since they alone can speak and treat for Scotland in the Union, as England’s MPs do for England.
Scotland’s MPs carry the authority of their Scottish kingdom as its representatives in the forum of the Union’s parliament, the House of Commons, where they debate and contend with England’s representatives in the evolution and resolution of the many matters that joint governance of both kingdoms requires.
As Scotland’s agents in that joint governance they obviously are not in the least obliged to submit to any majorities of the MPs of an entirely different country, any more than England’s MPs are to Scottish MP majorities, and there is no good reason why they should be.
The Treaty mandates no such obligation, and none is required, as it is perfectly possible to arrange a properly democratic vote which fully recognises the equal authorities of both sets of MPs without either group stepping on the toes of the other. By refusing to implement a fair voting system, Westminster and its English establishment is complicit in maintaining England’s unwarranted, selfish, and frequently abusive dominance.
It is that entirely unwarranted dominance that makes the current voting system in Westminster so unfair, because it enhances that dominance through its far too simplistic simple majority voting system that is blind to the two sovereignties its MPs act on behalf of.
Scotland is still a sovereign kingdom, as is England, but neither kingdom is currently self-governing; both kingdoms gave up their self governance for joint governance. But there is nothing meaningfully joint about it; England’s self-serving establishment has seen to that.
The rest of your comment is your usual smug tripe.
I should have made my last post clearer when I said folk should come to their own conclusion. I meant they should come to their own conclusion about Deans’s argument; not whether she’s an AI or not – because, as I said, she probably isn’t.
Also, I wrote “Deans article” when I should have written “Deans’s article”.
Republicofscotland says:
6 September, 2023 at 6:16 pm
One for later on this month.
This is to remind you that the Salvo Freeports Campaign Group is having the first of a series of public meetings on Saturday the 26th of August in the Spectrum Centre, 1B Margaret Street, Inverness, between 1.00 and 3.00pm
———————————————–
It is the 6th September today.
Incredibly boring posts on here.
Quiseres lead responders into dead ends.
Dumb or what?
Northcode says:
6 September, 2023 at 6:38 pm
For the sake of clarity, and honesty, I don’t really think Effie Deans is an AI; having said that I don’t know for sure, but she probably isn’t.
I was being facetious (sometimes I just can’t stop myself) in my earlier post because her article read, to me at least, as if written by an AI, and so I thought I’d paint her article in that fashion.
My view is my view and I would urge anyone interested to read Deans article for themselves and come to their own conclusion.
That’s mental.
Agent X.
Oops silly me apologies folks.
Xaracen,
as bonkers as ever. The treaty of union effectively extinguished both Scotland, and England, as well as Wales (and later in a separate treaty, Ireland) as sovereign countries. It’s a total nonsense to pretend, as you do, that there’s some form of equal equivalence between them. There just isn’t. The four home nations are only still called “countries” out of some twee historic notion. They ain’t four countries. Less the breakaway of 26 counties of Ireland, we’ve been a unitary country ever since. The “country” appellation applied to Scotland, England and Wales (which technically is a Principality, not a country) is utterly meaningless outside of the sports pitch. Englishmen and women, Scotsmen and Welshmen have been our Prime Ministers, our head of state has the blood of all four countries in his veins.
This is modern life 101. You ain’t going anywhere with ideas that somehow Scotland gets 50% of the vote (and Wales and NI you ignore). That’s batshit stupid.
And I’m a Scotsman. Scotland is where I grew up, I served in a Scottish regiment, and was proud to do so. But I don’t recognise it as a place that has an equal vote to 90.5% of the rest of the British people. That wouldn’t be right.
This is from another article on the Salvo website by Sara Salyers:
The Stone of Scone – it’s a Bummer, Charlie
“A gimcrack coronation Stone seems an exquisitely fitting symbol for this sham of a United Kingdom.” – Sara Salyers
“The Indy flame has been re-ignited. Now let’s turn it into a bonfire”. So says the National.
A bonfire of the vanities in the SNP sounds like a good idea. Then there might be some progress towards independence.
Xaracen at 652pm,
An excellent comment. THIS is the point, not one word of the union treaty allows England dominance over Scotland’s affairs, Yet England in its self-entitled colonial ways, does.
I particularly liked this section;
QUOTE “..Scotland is a fully equal partner with England in the Union, both being Kingdoms with equal national authority, and as such it is fully entitled to an equal say in the UK’s governance.
The context of those votes is provided by the Treaty, and nothing in it requires Scotland to be the junior partner in this Union, and England’s establishment has no right or authority to treat it as one. The Treaty does not give any authority over Scotland or its representatives to England or its MPs, for the simple reason that Westminster’s authority over Scotland is derived directly from Scotland’s own MPs in the UK parliament, since they alone can speak and treat for Scotland in the Union, as England’s MPs do for England.”
THAT is exactly the point. I just wish some in the SNP leadership would spend some time, really getting to grips with all of this, instead of presuming to already ‘know’.
The treaty was NEVER about Scotland agreeing to let England control Scottish affairs, yet England behaves as though it does.
Let’s also never forget that the Scottish parliamentary act agreeing to the terms of the treaty explicitly laid out that Scotland’s constitution and the Scottish claim of right (i.e, sovereignty lies with the people, and NOT in parliament, as it is in England) be upheld for all time coming within the treaty. A hard FACT, which unionists like to ignore.
Get out there and join the link on the 14th of October.
“It will mean, if the plans are successful, 49,000 people will line the canal path between the Firth of Forth and the west coast on October 14.”
The above is a lie from the National as explained by the organiser below. The date 14th of October is correct-the comment is from the National’s comment section on the article.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23771231.chain-freedom-plans-blocked-scottish-canals-say-organisers%2F
IMPORTANT – PLEASE NOTE –
“I have not given an interview to the National Newspaper.
The reporting is inaccurate.
As per our own releases/posts.
WE ARE UNDERTAKING OUR CHAIN ON THE FORTH AND CLYDE CANALS
only the Union Canal has been deemed unfit for this purpose.
I will be getting in touch with the reporter today to rectify this article.
@everyone”
Sturgeon the Judas stands up and speaks in the Holyrood chamber.
The betrayer of Scots even had the chutzpah to say this.
“I want this parliament to be independent”
Tony Blair hasn’t got a look in with this lying lowlife.
If you can stomach reading the rest of this backstabbers offerings here they are.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23772310.nicola-sturgeon-speaks-holyrood-first-time-since-resignation%2F
The puppet FM Humza Yousaf, has said the SNP is solvent even though its about 800k in the red.
The puppet FM added.
“Many people didn’t think we’d meet the auditing deadlines that we have met, I am pleased we met them, and the party’s finances are on a steady footing.
“We rely heavily on our 75,000 or almost 75,000 members that we have within the party, the biggest mass membership political organisation in Scotland that we are.
“We rely on that membership, as opposed to relying on corporate donors.”
I often find it quite bizarre, that the trolls from the 77th brigade on here, like to assert that Scotland is not a country. I often wonder just how popular it would be to post the same thing down in England regarding England.
Perhaps it is just yet another example of arrogant English exceptionalism, whereby England IS a country, but Scotland, somehow, magically, isn’t.
I just can’t for one second see many folk in England agreeing with the notion that ‘England is not a country’. That being so, one can only wonder why the clowns of 77th brigade continually try to assert Scotland doesn’t really exist at all.
A Scot Abroad said;
“Xaracen,
as bonkers as ever. The treaty of union effectively extinguished both Scotland, and England, as well as Wales (and later in a separate treaty, Ireland) as sovereign countries. It’s a total nonsense to pretend, as you do, that there’s some form of equal equivalence between them.”
The ‘equal equivalence’ is neither country having any legal or constitutional authority over the other country, which is the norm for countries all across the world. The view of England’s establishment that it is entitled to force Scotland to submit to English authority via Westminster’s voting system has no genuine legal, constitutional, or democratic justification whatsoever.
And if you think both Scotland and England were extinguished by the Treaty then you haven’t been paying any attention at all. Ask Boris how he feels about Scots law kicking his arse over his illegal proroguing of parliament, and while you’re at it, ask KC-III how he feels about being forced to acknowledge Scotland’s separate constitution that subjects his royal authority to the sovereignty of the Scots, and the fact that he can’t style himself King of Scots until he takes Scotland’s coronation oath as a precondition of Scots law, too.
You should get out of your tank more.
The UN accepted a submission from the UK, that stated that the UK is a unitary state, comprising 2 countries, a principality and a province.
This was subsequently updated to 3 countries and a province when the status of Wales was changed to “country” by the International Standards Organisation.
Commenters here, with rampant cognitive dissonance, find themselves unable to process this “3 country” fact because it goes against everything they perceive to be correct.
Let me paraphrase the Scot abroad troll for accuracy. Shouldn’t feed the troll, but had a few ‘muscat de rivesaltes’ as a genuine bona fide Scot, actually abroad
“And I’m a Scotsman. Scotland is where I grew up, I served in a Scottish regiment, and was proud to do so. But I don’t recognise it as a place that has an equal vote to 90.5% of the rest of the British people. That wouldn’t be right.”
What he is really saying is:
And I’m a proud Scotsman. Scotland is THE REGION where I grew up, I served in an English regional Scottish regiment as part of the English Miltary, and was proud to do so. But I don’t recognise Scotland as a country. It is a place that has an equal vote to 90.5% of the rest of the British isles people as part of the English establishment. That is only as it should be, as a Scottish vassal as I am proud to be.
Get a grip please, a Scotsman is someone who thinks their nationality is Scottish. It is a national attribute not a regional one. This is a truism for the vast majority of people born in Scotland. You detract, fine, but you are in a tiny minority.
You however in reality, just a pathetic anglocentic misfit harking after Britishhood that most English people would despise as lickspittle or look down upon in any case. Ordinary Scottish people will consider you as certainly neither Scottish nor proud at all.
I feel sorry for you.
Nicola’s back is she?
A period of silence would be wise from Nicola… She’s a suspect remember.
Johnim
Quiseres lead responders into dead ends. Dumb or what?
If you’re talking of me and my Effie the AI stuff (you know, saying it was an AI and then saying it wasn’t), I apologise, Johnim. In fact, I apologise to all.
Sometimes I think I’m being smart when I’m really just being a smarterse.
I’ll try and rein my facetiousness in a bit. I can’t make any promises, though – it’s a mental thing.
Show bizz Sturgeon just can’t stay away from the cameras can she?
She didn’t appear to be too happy about having to travel on the train across from Glasgow… Looks like she’s been papped by the papperzzi travelling in the peasant wagon of from lying Scotswoman, from Glasgow to Edinburgh on SNP Rail…
Like a former rock star that’s had a Britney spears meltdown and lost every last dime of their once wealthy 600K figure bank account.
It’ll be a hard adjustment to regular life without her ministerial cars.
But she better get used to it. As many years from now, when she’s finally released from Corton Vale, as a frail old pensioner in an Independent Scotland… Walking past Alex Salmond’s statue..
Nabdy will recognise her when she buys the milk like Thatcher. A nobody.
Thank goodness that is the reality that lies ahead.
The proof and realisation of what I just posted for the ‘not so proud Scot abroad’ is the following-
IF Scotland had passed the referendum and became Independent. He would today be in complete no mans land. Neither English, nor Scottish. Nowhere to hang his Union flag. Shunned wherever he ventures forth considered a chippy Scot to the English and considered an anglocentric bawbag at best to everyone in Scotland.
Suggestion: Maybe he can consider emigration to Australia then he can denigrate the aboriginals to his hearts content?
Dan says yesterday at 10:56 pm
@ James Jones
“Please explain the reasons you think the respective percentage figures of resources in the two Kingdoms that make up the UK don’t tell us much and is a silly comparison.
NB. Scotland’s population makes up approximately 9% of UK.
GB Grid is currently burning gas in CCGT power stations in England to produce over 52% of current GB Grid demand. Around 50% of gas produced in the UK’s geographic area comes from Scotland’s geographic area, so Scotland with only 9% of the UK population would have a surplus. England also imports the gas it needs from the likes of Norway.”
The UK or Scotland can tax oil revenues but realistically it’s Shell’s and BP’s oil and gas. That wouldn’t change if Scotland was independent. Currently North Sea Oil profits are taxed favourably compared to the same company’s earnings elsewhere on the globe. They pay 30% corporation tax on their profits and a supplementary 10% rate on top of that. However, oil and gas firms have been able to reduce the amount of tax they pay by factoring in losses or spending on things like decommissioning North Sea oil platforms. In recent years, such methods have meant that BP and Shell have paid almost no UK tax. It’s appalling but change it and they’ll just leave it in the seabed for later, having other fish to fry.
The privately-funded (and foreign?) wind and solar could be ramped up in the rest of the UK if the Scottish trade wasn’t mutually favourable.
Also your notion that the UK is reliant on Scottish freshwater reservoirs, as if the rest of the UK is a desert devoid of even groundwater, is silly.
But well done the 9% for… um, something.
Dear oh dear… The presiding officer and the Freudian slip. First Minister… “Sorry Nicola”
Show bizz Sturgeon is back!
There’s no business like show business!
Point of order?
“Mon the fish”
Say’s Mhairi Maccallan.
“Bring back lobotomisation”… Says Douglas Ross.
That’s no a point of order I’ll have you know. Butil let you argue like School children in a disruptive classroom full of RACC.
The funny farm is back.
ephemeraldeception,
Well done to us both. We live up to our screen names. I’m a Scot Abroad, and you are both ephemeral and deceptive.
Confused 12:19 am
“The people at the IMF, a lot of them are foreigners, possibly catholics. Billy Carlin has proved that the vatican is behind it all.”
The IMF is a Private Corporation listed on Dun & Bradstreet and being traded on the New York Stock Exchange for PROFIT just like the UN, EU, US, UK, and just about every country, The Westminster and Scottish Governments and Parliaments, Political Parties, Politicians, Councils, Courts, Police, Health Service, Hospitals etc etc etc and are all worth £BILLIONS at least which is a total laugh when our corrupt puppet Governments/Political Parties claim that there is NO money for anything while the Queen now King, Rothschild’s and Vatican split all of the massive PROFITS being made from these Private Corporations.
Every single man, woman and child on this planet with a Birth Certificate is also being traded on the New York Stock Exchange as well and have Cestui Que Vie Trusts worth £MILLIONS at least that everything is PRE-PAID out of, such as Bank Loans, Utility Bills, Insurance, Mortgages, etc and then they con you into paying again – in the case of Mortgages they con you into paying back at least THREE times the value of your house over the term of the Mortgage and the dumb people think that they are making profits when they come to sell their house and the even bigger laugh is you NEVER own the house or anything else you REGISTER as it is owned by that all caps name – CAPITIS DIMINUTIO – Private Corporation that the corrupt puppet governments created when they conned your mother into REGISTERING you. When you die it is that all caps Private Corporation (BILLY CARLIN) name that will be on your head stone and NOT your name (Billy Carlin) and your Cestui Que Vie Trust will not be left to your own family but again be split between the King, Rothschild’s, Vatican etc MAFIAS.
ALL of the OCCULT Religions and Secret Societies are owned and controlled by the Vatican MAFIA – They are all the EXACT same ripped off ASTROTHEOLOGY and The ZODIAC, NUMEROLOGY etc and they are all divide and conquer and the Secret Societies are the Vatican’s USELESS IDIOT clubs where they find the people too stupid to realise who they are working for to do these MAFIAS dirty work and help bring in THEIR agenda. Why do you think that the Religions call their followers their flock because they can tell them any old DRIVEL, such as a man can be born from a virgin, he can walk on water, he can be crucified and come back to life etc and the masses will be sheep and believe them and follow them no matter what too stupid to realise that all of this is SUN God worship and relates to the SUN on the ZODIAC. Why do you think that Judaism is ripped off ancient MYTHS, and Christianity is a mix of Judaism and ripped off ancient MYTHS and Islam is a mix of Christianity and Judaism and ripped off ancient MYTHS. These MAFIAS always create a new “saviour” and Religion for every new Age of the ZODIAC and as “Jesus” who was created to represent the Age of Pisces is telling you at Luke 22:10 where he is telling you to “WATCH OUT FOR A MAN BEARING A PITCHER OF WATER and to follow him into the HOUSE he enters into” the Vatican and all religions are at present creating that new Religion called Chrislam and new “saviour” called LUCIFER for the soon to be Age of Pisces that is about to begin – this is going to be the One World Religion to go with the One World, Communist Chinese Style but worst, Government they are DELIBERATELY destroying our countries and worlds economy to try and bring in. You will find this new One World Religion being set up by the Vatican in Abu Dhabi being reported on the Gospel News Network website. Of course this is another major reason that they want to kill of most of the worlds population as well because most of the people already cultists in these other religions are NOT going to give up their cults hence why round two of the SCAMDEMIC is coming very soon and a probably permanent lock down this time using the Climate Change SCAM to justify it as they will say it is causing the totally FAKE viruses to be multiplying more and most of the sheep will fall for it all again while the so called King/Royals, Rothschild’s, Vatican etc sit in the background pretending they are powerless and it is all nothing to do with them while their USELESS IDIOTS carry out their agenda for them.
Like I said every man, woman and child has Trusts worth £MILLIONS at least while most of this planet is struggling to get by and that is because the people never questioned why they had to REGISTER their kids or EVERYTHING that they are being told and this has allowed those MAFIAS to create this SCAM system and get away with everything that they have been doing as part of their agenda and they will get away with it all if the people do not start to question everything and stand up for their families etc. Voting for any Political Party is NOT going to get you anywhere either as they are all Private Corporations as well and you will not get any politician in any party standing up and speaking the truth re what is really going on etc because they will get deselected like Andrew Bridgen – most of them are USELESS CLOWNS anyway clueless as to what is really going on and the scam system that we live in just like most of the population are as well. At least millions of people every day are waking up all over the world even if these politician’s are not.
I found the following information posted on Twitter by
Roddy Dunlop KC in a series of tweets very helpful.
The bold is mine.
“There has been some confusion about prosecutorial decisions of late. What follows is not aimed at any particular case. I know not why some cases are prosecuted and other are not. But the points below are perhaps not widely known.
1- police are not obliged to report to the procurator fiscal every alleged crime. They have a discretion to issue warnings.
2- however, that does not apply where there is an aggravation. If there is then, in general, the case must be reported to the PF.
3- the PF is not obliged to prosecute every reported crime. Again, there is a discretion.
4- once more, however, the discretion not to prosecute is removed, or at least tightly circumscribed, where there is an aggravation.
5- an aggravation relates to certain (but not all) characteristics. Thus race is covered. As is religion; and sexual orientation; and gender reassignment.
6- misogyny, however, is not an aggravation.
7- likewise, being gender critical may be covered under the Equality Act. But it is not covered by aggravations under the criminal law.
8- accordingly, neither an assault on a woman for being a woman, or for being a gender critical woman, is an aggravated crime. A report of such could be dealt with by police warning, or not prosecuted by the PF, under the discretions mentioned above.
9- on the other hand, a s38 (breach of the peace) which involves no assault but which does involve alleged hate crime (re race, religion, sexual orientation etc – but not misogyny) is aggravated and, in general, must be prosecuted and is not subject to those discretions.
10- what this means is a breach of the peace involving verbal abuse of certain minorities must be prosecuted; but the assault of a woman does not have to be. Whether this is desirable or advisable I leave to others. But it’s where the law stands right now. ENDS”
This led me to look at why misogyny isn’t a hate crime.
There’s this
https://www.gov.scot/publications/reforming-criminal-law-address-misogyny-scottish-government-consultation/pages/3/
And a lot of discussion re misogyny as hate crime went on at Westminster but on Tuesday 25 April 2023
https://archive.ph/1upF9
Government confirms misogyny will not be made a hate crime
If misogyny is made a hate crime then that shouldn’t
misandry also be made a hate crime?
I do hope before they come to their senses and decide to ditch all the bonkers hate crimes that they make misogyny a hate crime here in Scotland as I have a whole list of
‘misogynistic hate crimes’ that I will be reporting to the police. 🙂
@Xaracen says:6 September, 2023 at 3:01 pm
I recall we did this one to death not that long ago, but WTF, I can spare a few minutes to once again go over the salient points.
As you convinced me, Scotland & England are in a union as equal partners (I’ll ignore Wales & Northern Ireland to keep things simple).
Thus, we don’t need to get het up about Brexit, because by definition, our accession to the then Common Market as a single national entity was flawed, fraudulent and unconstitutional.
Both England and Scotland should have had separate accession agreements signed with the Common Market / EU. That would have allowed either or both countries to independently leave at any time.
Because our accession was unconstitutional, our leaving was only righting a historic wrong. But because we joined as the UK, and the Common Market negotiated with us in good faith as the UK, it remains right that we left as the UK, following a UK-wide vote.
We are now in a position where we can ensure that if we ever rejoin, whether as the UK, or as iScotland, it is done correctly. No UK-wide deals, but a deal for Scotland and/or a separate deal for England. I look forwards enormously to seeing which country gets the best deal.
Just as I look forwards enormously to seeing how the EU will cope.
@Northcode says:6 September, 2023 at 6:59 pm
Also, I wrote “Deans article” when I should have written “Deans’s article”
Naw. If a possessive ends in ‘s’, you don’t add a second ‘s’.
You should have written “Deans’ article”.
Why do I think you already knew that, but set out deliberately to see if anybody would notice?
Anyhoo, I believe punctuation is a lot simpler in Scots.
Why would Scotland want to boot out the Westminster government?
We would miss out on the ever growing sleaze and corruption,
The NHS being crippled before being sold off, raw sewage across England’s rivers,
Millions going hungry and having to use Foodbanks while in work,
rampant inflation record high taxation, 14 mortgage rate rises inside 2 years, 13 years of
Austerity and economic crisis, school building collapsing, police corrupt and incompetent,
food inflation at 20%, Councils going bankrupt, Brexit an unmitigated financial disaster, boat people arriving in uncontrollable numbers and over one hundred years of English voters deciding English Labour can have a term in office every 20 years if they mimic their Tory counterparts.
Who would risk loosing this incredible government from the ruthless nation next door.
O/T perhaps.
The country we now know as Germany did not exist before the 19th century. During that century, some 39 independent, self-governing states agreed to a political union.
Over much the same period, the country we now know as Italy was formed from 7 independent, self-governing states.
Certainly in the case of Italy, some of the founding member states were of an age, fame, wealth and glory that makes Scotland’s claims to ancient kingdom status look farcical by comparison.
Just saying, because somebody upthread was claiming that Scotland is in a unique position.
I don’t see it myself.
There are plenty of Germans and plenty of Italians who would like to detach their home states from the bigger countries and go it alone. Usually it is because their home states are above the average prosperity of the bigger mother country, and thus they want to keep that prosperity for themselves.
You could say they want to be shown the money.
abroad |??br??d| chiefly Brit.
adverb
in or to a foreign country or countries: we usually go abroad for a week in May | competition from companies at home and abroad.
noun [ mass noun ]
foreign countries considered collectively: servicemen returning from abroad.
How can anyone claim to be “abroad” if neither of the locations they have moved from or to is a country?
@Effijy says:6 September, 2023 at 10:55 pm
boat people arriving in uncontrollable numbers
Hmmmm.
Your post paints a dismal picture of England, but is it a true one?
How do you explain the boat people arriving in uncontrollable numbers? Don’t they read your posts, or even the papers, or listen to the BBC?
Here’s another puzzler. Why aren’t the boat people arriving in uncontrollable numbers here? Could it be because Scotland is in an even worse state than England? Whose fault would that be then?
There’s boat people crossing the Med from Africa to Italy. There’s even boat people crossing the Atlantic from Africa to the Canaries.
But no boat people coming up the Forth, or the Clyde.
Hmmmm.
While I quite often (and rightfully, it seems to me, although some would disagree, and that’s fine) opine that some BTL comments are bonkers, I think that there’s a new level of bonkersness that being introduced. The Vatican and Astrotheology? WTAF is going on there?
Sturgeon turning up in the Holyrood chamber and trying to play the wise elder stateswoman has to be the most self-delusional performance since Florence Foster Jenkins played Carnegie Hall.
Backshift this week.
DNFTT.
BDTT,
I live in the Norfolk Broads. It’s a pun. And the reason that I live here is because I moved in with the main squeeze, who is American and calls herself a broad. So, A Scot Abroad covers most of those angles. And the Angles were the main tribe in Norfolk way back when.
Enough, now. Most seem to just refer to me, if they do, as ASA.
Brian Doonthetoon says: at 9:23 pm
“The UN accepted a submission from the UK, that stated that the UK is a unitary state, comprising 2 countries, a principality and a province.
This was subsequently updated to 3 countries and a province when the status of Wales was changed to “country” by the International Standards Organisation.”
————————————-
BDTT
I’m certain I had a long time ago, a copy/part of the submission which stated exactly that. Unfortunately I’ve lost it.
Do you or has anyone else, have a copy that they could post here.
I have tried trawling the internet but simply can’t find anywhere, could it be that WM has “hidden” it on purpose?
ASA won’t be happy.. 🙂
A Scot Abroad says:
6 September, 2023 at 11:56 pm
Enough, now. Most seem to just refer to me, if they do, as ASA.
But Ascot Hat fits you so much better, and what’s more, you know it does. Lol. Once a hat, always a hat.
Scotland’s loss is Norfolks gain. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Heartfelt commiserations to the good people of Norfolk.
Northcode
I wasn’t getting at anyone in particular.
This is the top political blog in the country and when casual visitors drop in all they see are quisers setting the agenda.
You were on topic, so can’t argue with that.
Hope I didn’t offend.
“The moving finger having writ ….. etc.”
@Billy Carlin says:6 September, 2023 at 10:30 pm
At least millions of people every day are waking up all over the world
I can certainly vouch for the truth of that.
It just happened to me.
Unionists would be cheered by many of the comments here. A few suggest that you should have a plan for leaving and being a separate country but the majority think that there is no need for a plan. Just up sticks from the UK and take ownership of all those assets Scotland has. No need even for a successful referendum because you were never in the UK anyway. Ok, it’s possible. But which countries, other than Russia would accept you afterwards? All those assets you think are Scotland’s belong to people, including pension funds, companies and governments. The countries that you might want to trade with later have vested interests in those things you plan to reclaim and in how you act politically. You are talking of annexing a part of a recognised country, how’s that working for Putin? Deep down you fear discussing workable plans because you haven’t got any. You even want to circumvent any referendum because you fear you don’t have a majority behind you.
At this point you’ll say that England won’t let you have a referendum yet. Well no, is it fair to either country to demand a referendum every few years? They’re damaging and expensive to both nations. Do you think that the EU would accept Scotland as a member if it could vote out again, any time it feels the urge? Does Scotland want to be seen as fickle?
Have you never wondered why you lost the last vote? It was because there was no viable plan to leave. So keep up the talk of revolution, it’s a boon to unionists.
Shame on you Mr Main! :0)
Scotland was sufficient of a country that the PanAm 103 in 1988 criminal enquiry was carried out according to Scots Law.
Regions ie Yorkshire, do not have that right.
Enough of the self-indulgent navel gazing.
Hi Graf Midgehunter.
There are plenty of references to Wales’ status change (links to 2 of them below) and I downloaded the pdf of the original ISO newsletter but, like you, cannot find a source for the original UN submission online.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GB
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/international-body-grants-wales-country-1813629
The original pdf (see page 27):
iso_3166-2_newsletter_ii-3_2011-12-13.pdf
Link for the original pdf (see page 27):
iso_3166-2_newsletter_ii-3_2011-12-13.pdf
https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/archive/pdf/en/iso_3166-2_newsletter_ii-3_2011-12-13.pdf
The great conspiracy theory that the world is in thrall to cosmic forces the non illuminated know nought of etc.
Globalism isn’t a conspiracy, we know the names of the players and their particular «intentions». Their «secrets» are anything but.
We also know that some are as off scale in their «Weltanschauung» as the person who posts on the subject of the Catholics, The Vatican and his American fundamentalist Protestant insights into the wickedness of Rome.
The Nazi «theorists» engaged in this kind of speculation. The Catholics are really secret Jews, Jesus was aryan, there is a secret knowledge that the Masons keep locked away, the Jesuits and Jewish international capitalists conspire etc all very Protocols of the Elders of Zion with mystic «end of time» additions from south of the Mason Dixon line.
Illuminati, Gnosticism, suppressed gospels and Frazer’s Golden Bough inhabit this alt.universe, all very, very old hat.
Lets chat instead about Scotland’s fairy folk and their mischief.
The independence referendum is happening on the 19th October as announced last year, the same day that the Mid Bedfordshire by election so its great to see everything coming into place now with all the rallies etc.
In the press.
«Everyday devices like smart speakers, doorbell cameras, TVs and even washing machines are spying on families»
…..well, well, well. There are bugs in them helpful devices.
I reckon a bright ten year old could have worked that one out.
«Will you walk into my parlour?” said a spider to a fly;
” ‘Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy.
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I have many pretty things to shew when you are there.”
“Oh no, no!” said the little fly, “to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can ne’er come down again»
Re ‘Deans’s Article
I was taught (many years ago) that if a noun was a single syllable then the format was apostrophe ‘s”
Therefore ‘Deans’s’ is correct and for example, the poetry of Burns would be Burns’s poetry.
See also Comprehension And Language Exercises by A.W.S. Dubber (P. 185)
@ Turabdin at 08.33: “The PanAm case in Lockerbie was under Scots law”
That is a knock-out point, Turabdin. Well done. There’s no denying that proves Scotland’s status as a different country from England, and therefore equally entitled to a say on the future of the Union.
#ShitterTogether
Further to HMRC self-assesment service being shut for a month, then a 1.5 hour wait on hold only to be cut off as the office closed for the day… Managed another 55 mins on hold this morning listening to one repeating elevator music song and finally managed to got to speak to someone at HMRC. Spoke for 3 mins and got them to send out the relevant tax return form which isn’t available to download from the net. Was told it would take 2 weeks to arrive…
The length of time I had been on hold I could have driven to any city in Scotland and picked up a form.
@ Sarah
Yes, I recall when there was a tax office in every city / large town, and tax matters could be dealt with quickly and in a far simpler fashion than the way things are now.
Whilst on hold to HMRC they have some automated information stating you can watch youtube videos to help with tax matters, and you can use twitter to ask them questions. FFS, what a way to run such an important organisation.
I understand those working in “political service” get fast tracked when dealing with HMRC as they have their own designated call handling service. Not the plebs that actually do the real work though, out time means fuck all and can be pissed away whilst the taxpayer funded political class get preferential treatment as they continue to mess things up.
some people might be interested to read a rival blog about the informant for this post ‘Effie Deans’
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2022/10/28/the-liz-truss-of-political-prose/
BDTT
Many thanks for the info and links, in particular the ISO pdf..
It’s important because it confirms from the UK/WM Government that Scotland was and still is a Country in its own right.
I don’t know if it’s long term thinking from WM, however when Scotland does regain its independence, the present UK would lose 2/5 of its political territory. No “UK” anymore. 🙂
With the “promotion” of Wales to a country status, it could in theory try to hold on to the “United Kingdom(s)” titel of a UK of England and Wales. Two countries under one “UK”.
Trying to con the world that the mighty UK still needs its seats at the world table.
I presume that ALBA/Salvo also have this info at their fingertips when dealing with WM.
Lets chat instead about Scotland’s fairy folk and their mischief.
I would, but I don’t want Patrick Harvie to get me arrested.
Aha! – A Scot Abroad gets more relaxed, and tells us about himself! This can only be good – he sounds like somebody whose company I could enjoy. We all have friends who don’t share our political views.
But I want to suggest that while a person’s upbringing and life-experiences drive them towards one set of beliefs, that’s not necessarily the whole story. Jean-Paul Sartre set out a doctrine called ‘mauvaise foi’ – the pretence that one’s actions are determined, when in fact they are free; in other words, you *always* have a choice. (Sartre was driven nuts by waiters who could only behave like waiters, never people.) So in a shifting political landscape, you have to constantly re-evaluate your position.
In the 2014 campaign, none of the Unionists I spoke to could formulate an argument, they could only spout unremitting abuse. But there was one exception: he pointed to his regimental necktie and more or less said, “Look, I’m never going to agree with you, so let’s just leave it at that.”
I could respect him, and I can respect ASA.
OT….
Re Taymouth Castle/Kenmore – Gated Community project.
I’m thinking of submitting some FOI requests to ascertain how much taxpayers money, in the form of Grants, has been invested in this project. Which is not in and of itself a bad thing.
We are talking about fixing up the Castle, extensively re shaping the landscape for the new Golf Course.
Work on the beach, proposed work on the local Hotel, local shop and local boat yard business. Oh and numerous cottages and flats in the area.
Can anyone here suggest what type grants may have been applied for? I suspect if I don’t ask for exactly the correct name, I’ll be given negative answers.
@ Daisy Walker
Not aware of anything specific at the moment but was actually reading this the other day.
https://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/23480/Statement-on-development-at-Taymouth-Castle-Estate
Plus as Kenmore is designated as a conservation area one ponders how this new development will tie in well with that status.
NB. 49 page PDF but does have some interesting and relevant stuff in it.
https://www.pkc.gov.uk/media/3785/Kenmore-Conservation-Area-Appraisal/pdf/Kenmore_CA_Appraisal_-_whole_doc
So much word play and verbal contortions trying to deal with three simple words: country, nation, state.
Where, a country is a physical thing, if geography allows, with sovereignty and borders. A nation is a group of people with shared language, culture, history, etc. A state is a political entity that has sovereignty and borders. The difference between a state and a country is that empires, i.e. the Roman one, can be states.
The problem is that English is entire the wrong language for such subtleties, it’s way too ambiguous. It’s the gender vs debacle all over again.
Which of the following is not true:
A country can be a state
A nation can be a country
A nation can be a state
Several nations can make up a country
Several nations can make up a state
Several countries can make up a state
A country can be independent
A nation can be independent
A state can be independent
See, it’s not that hard. Of course there are edge cases, e.g. Palestinians or Kurds which are nations living in several countries and without any state.
So Scots (a nation), living in Scotland (a country), can do whatever the f**k they want. You can whine all day long that this or that no longer exists but, because democracy, you can’t deny people the right to choose. Who knows, maybe the Cornish will rise up and throw off the Anglo-Saxon yoke at some point.
Thanks Douglas, that cheered me up.
This is interesting.
“The study from the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) think tank found that even Unionist voters were likely to be put off by the sidelining of devolved governments.
Report author Ailsa Henderson, a professor of political science at the University of Edinburgh, said the findings showed there was an “ambivalent Union” where fewer than half of voters in the four home nations view maintaining the UK in its current form as a priority.”
“In addition, the index shows only Conservative supporters in Scotland and those who back Unionist parties in Northern Ireland lean towards a muscular Unionist approach, placing them at odds with the opinions of most supporters of the Union in England.”
On Brexit.
“For example, in Scotland and Northern Ireland people who emphasise their Britishness exhibit similar levels of Euroscepticism to those in England who emphasise their English, but not their British, identity,” the IPPR said.”
“Professor Henderson said: “Attitudes to the Union are typically understood as polarised between those who want its end and those who believe its benefits should be defended more assertively.
“Nowhere is that polarisation more obvious than in Scotland, but UK-wide there is also considerable ambivalence to the Union, with much support either muted or conditional on perceived benefits.”
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F23773595.minority-across-uk-see-preserving-union-priority-ippr-study-finds%2F
Stuart
Scotland is a country but it is not a state.
However, because of it’s UK membership, it is in a state. 😉
Stuart again
Just to add to the confusion several states can make up country e.g. USA
One of the million plus reasons why we need to tell Westminster to f*ck off.
“An SNP MP has slammed the Tories after a UK Government minister rejected free access to televised Scotland men’s football games for fans.
Gavin Newlands met with media minister John Whittingdale earlier this week to explore making Scotland matches listed events.
This would mean the broadcast rights to these events would be offered to the main free-to-air terrestrial broadcasters.
England games are currently free to watch on Channel 4 and ITV, while Scotland matches are on Norwegian subscription service Viaplay.
Newlands, who represents Paisley and Renfrewshire North, said he was disappointed with the meeting.
He claimed Whittingdale’s attitude and rejection showed the UK government’s “disinterest” in the success of the Scotland team and the experience of fans.”
ASA: “…Ock aye the nue….I’m Scotch yea ken? We’re shite!”
Main: “…Rather!!…”
Akeanon: “…bjtbjbtjbtjbjbjbj…”
Chas: “….is it not changeover time yet?….”
Republicofscotland @ 11:29 am
“The study from the Institute for Public Policy Research”
Yes, Britishness is a ‘cultural illusion’. Scots have to be ‘culturally assimilated’ to believe in it, which requires them to subordinate their own culture and country. The same as Indians, Irish, Kenyans, South Africans and many other subjugated oppressed ‘peoples’ were culturally assimilated. Then these colonies became independent. Now its the turn of the remaining ‘internal’ colonies to be liberated – liberated from ‘colonial procedures’.
Chic McGregor
> Just to add to the confusion several states can make up country e.g. USA
Doh! A great example. Same for Germany. There are also all the Commonwealth dependencies but I think these are more aligned with the crown rather than the UK state, as such. It’s easy to see how you can get tied in knots since the same words are applied to different political situations.
In any case it all boils down to whether you advocate democracy or not. Texas could vote to leave the USA. If Washington backs democracy then it would/should let them go. Alternatively, it could send in the army and we’d know that they’re no better than China.
The UK is essentially the same but on a smaller scale. What if England voted to leave? Should they be allowed to? Who own the UK debt? What currency would they use? Ascot Hat will be pleased that the central bank issue is already dealt with – except all their assets are in GBP not English Pounds. Oh, dear, so many unresolved issues, they’d better not try.
England games are currently free to watch on Channel 4 and ITV, while Scotland matches are on Norwegian subscription service Viaplay.
Has anybody asked the SFA (a private organisation mind) if they want the government to steal their TV rights from them?
Surprised that in her speech at Holyrood yesterday Ms Sturgeon failed to remind us of the Referendum she announced on June 22nd 2022, to be held next month on 19th October.
If her recollection of events doesn’t improve dramatically her memoirs may be a remarkably thin volume.
@ROS
Didn’t Viaplay go bust?
@John Main
“The idea that 61.6 million English are going to supinely sit there and be beggared as Scotland waltzes off with a substantial chunk of what currently keeps England afloat is very far-fetched.”
Uhm, is that an admission that Scotland subsidises England?
Graf Midgehunter,
I’m entirely relaxed about whether Wales is a Principality or a country. They’ve never been up to much in the last 2,000 years, apart from some good rugby teams and some excellent soldiers. Otherwise, it’s all a bit dreary there.
As for the International Standards Organisation, who really cares about them? They don’t do anything for the world apart from to issue out red tape. They certainly have no business in international geo-politics, so can be ignored in that respect.
The UK government cares enough about the ISO to submit input to it.
JohnIm
No problem, JohnIm. Just thought I’d make sure I hadn’t offended you in some way and apologise just on the off-chance I had…I’m happy that I didn’t.
As a resident of Wales, I find it amusing that several Scottish separatist media outlets, podcasts and social media, often manage to slip in a reference to Wales “agitating/rising up” for independence. Nothing could be further from the truth. The last annual 1st March (St David’s Day) poll revealed that only 18% of the Welsh electorate are in favour of independence, the lowest percentage for 3 years. Subsequent to that poll, the nationalist Plaid Cymru party effectively imploded, under a welter of scandals involving bullying, misogyny and factionalism. This resulted in the leader Adam Price resigning, and the two main factions kicking the hell out of each other. On one hand, the slightly to the right, traditional independence seeking faction is at war with the leftist younger wannabe revolutionaries who want to major in on “ishoos” such as trans rights, Palestine etc. The majority of the electorate in Wales is non Welsh speaking (less than 20%) and is never going to vote for a Welsh socialist republic, where to gain employment will require the speaking of Welsh (as now pertains in BBC Wales and certain Mid and North Wales local authorities). Nah, the majority will continue to vote (non separatist) Labour on the basis of “put a red rosette on a donkey” syndrome. The Union is safe for all time in Wales.
@ ROS 11.44am You wrote
“Newlands, who represents Paisley and Renfrewshire North, said he was disappointed with the meeting.”
That’s funny ROS because as a constituent of Newlands I am MORE than a little disappointed in him and his party regarding independence , I actually thought he was the invisible man for all the good he has done supposedly representing Scotland and Paisley North
BUT don’t worry about my vote Mr Newlands, you won’t be getting it again because you have PROVEN just like your party that you are FAKE independence supporters that cannot recognise what a REAL WOMAN is, and the continued FOCUS on our children’s SEX lives is extremely worrying and suspect
It just shows the focus these clowns have, worrying about football games rather than saving our people from the ravages of the incompetence and corruption of the 3 tory parties , independence for Scotland is the furthest thing from their minds better to divert attention by mentioning FITBA FFS
@Bob W says:7 September, 2023 at 1:34 pm
is that an admission that Scotland subsidises England?
Not exactly.
I have no idea if Scotland subsidises England.
There are figures proving we do.
There are figures proving the opposite.
I remain to be convinced either way.
Most people on here choose the figures they want to believe, and then take it from there – the figures they want to believe are, of course, those that show what a rich wee country we are.
What I like to do is point out what follows logically from the “facts” that people choose to believe.
Thus, as a rich wee country, we will be right royally buggered by the EU, which is cash-strapped and stuffed with poor wee countries needing handouts.
Thus, as a major propper upper of England, we will have to be prepared to fight tooth and nail for Indy, and be prepared to deal with some very nasty behaviour up to and including aggressive militarism if we fail to negotiate an amicable, reasonable divorce settlement.
Most of the alert readers can see that whilst neither of these facts are stoppers to Indy and/or EU membership, they do need proper planning and war gaming in the run up to Indy.
Most of the alert readers have finally twigged that none of the necessary ground work has been done in the 10 years since the Indy Ref.
And just maybes, some can even see that if the Indy Ref had been won, with none of the contingency planning in place, and an SNP administration stuffed with eejits, it could have been a disaster.
Just maybes, we dodged a bullet in 2014.
@Neil Singleton says:7 September, 2023 at 4:57 pm
the nationalist SNP effectively imploded, under a welter of scandals involving theft, misogyny and factionalism. This resulted in the leader NS resigning, and the two main factions kicking the hell out of each other. On one hand, the mostly left, traditional independence seeking faction is at war with the loony younger wannabe revolutionaries who want to major in on “ishoos” such as trans rights, Palestine etc. The majority of the electorate in Scotland is non Gaelic/Scots speaking (less than – {citation needed}) and is never going to vote for a Scottish socialist republic, where to gain employment will require the speaking of Scots (as now suggested by notable Indy supporters). Nah, the majority will continue to vote (non separatist) Labour on the basis of “put a red rosette on a donkey” syndrome.
@John Main
“Thus, as a major propper upper of England”
You’ve said it again, how can Scotland not be subsidising England, if we are in fact, as you have stated that twice now, propping them up and at the same time, Scotland being a “subsidy junky” a la UK gov GERS accounts? Schrödinger’s Scotland?
And there is a shortcut. The Canny Scots who drafted the Treaty of Union baked in an escape clause in the shape of the Claim of Right Act 1689. Still there because if WM repealed it they would be repealing the Treaty and the Union.
It’s why on the two occasions Scots have presented the CoR to WM it has been accepted by acclimation. They dare not put it to a vote Because it Might Lose.
The Claim of Right is our constitution. It says we are all sovereign, not Westminster, not Holyrood, not the resident of Buck House, us, each and every one of us. Even exiles like you Stu, when you’re on Scottish soil.
The CoR legislates for a Convention of the Estates to make large decisions or hold power to account. One of them stripped a King of power. It is not constrained by the Scotland Acts. Nothing is Reserved. THAT is our shortcut.
For much of the last 300 years attempting to do that would get you arrested, maybe hung, maybe imprisoned, maybe Transported. Good luck finding a lawyer too.
2014 made some lawyers, many of the very good ones, into Yessers. So now is the time to use that escape clause. But we must be brave and bold. Neither of those epithets seem to attach themselves easily to our current First Minister unfortunately.
The sooner we get rid of this freak show the better. We have all been had by this crowd of deviants. So its back to dirty, filthy Labour. I hate Scotland.
>> “all the debating lines against independence crumble to ashes”
Like the SNP, you’re ignoring the line that doesn’t crumble:
The people of Scotland were asked if they wanted independence, and they said “No”. They’re volunteers in the United Kingdom.
Scotland is clearly a country. A country that is governed in part from Edinburgh and in part from London. Some of its people want to change that into a country that is governed in part from Edinburgh and in part from Brussels. Those in favour of independence don’t want to have the sole say over its affairs because if they did they would have no truck with wanting to be partly governed from Brussels.
An irrational desire to jump out of the frying pan into the fire covers it I think.
“Like the SNP, you’re ignoring the line that doesn’t crumble:
The people of Scotland were asked if they wanted independence, and they said “No”. They’re volunteers in the United Kingdom.”
Sigh. And you’re ignoring the fact that democracy didn’t end in 2014, and rather a lot has changed since then.
Ditching being part of one political union (UK) to join another political union (EU) makes no sense if you truly want independence. The EU is a political Union. It says so in its own documents.
Countries in the EU have less power to set their own laws, run their own finances, not have the trading ability that truly independent nations to do so without being in a political (not trading) union than we do in the UK. So which part of joining the EU do people think gives us the political independence of New Zealand, South Africa, Ecuador, or even Switzerland?
Independence within Europe is the SNPs three-word slogan. But it’s a lie. The truth is, political Independence is the last thing you have in the EU where, as we are finding, the EU still seek to control the UK even though we voted Leave. We wouldn’t have liked that state of affairs in relation to rUK if we had voted Yes.
Maybe the Nationalists should recruit Nigel Farage – he more or less swayed people to vote for the more worrying option to leave.
Nigel and Alex – that would be a very intimidating PR combo.