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To Another World

Posted on September 03, 2023 by

So, we guess this is the “mainstream independence movement” now.

It’s smaller than we imagined.

How small exactly? The organisers and Humza Yousaf both made embarrassing claims of “25,000” attendees for yesterday’s march and rally in Edinburgh, which to anyone with more braincells than toes are palpable intelligence-insulting fantasy.

Remarkably yet another indy march has passed without anyone managing to get their hands on a drone (which you can now pick up for £99 in Argos), for a proper overhead view, so we have to estimate the actual numbers quite crudely. But various pics:

…allow us to fairly accurately triangulate the area occupied by the crowd watching speeches from the First Minister and others outside Holyrood, and feed it into a neutral source. You can see that people are quite close together but by no mean rammed up against each other cheek-by-jowl, so we chose the default “Crowded” option meaning two people per square metre.

We have to say, 4221 sounds in the right sort of ballpark to us based on what we saw. (If you were really inclined to be generous you might just about be credibly able to stretch it up to 5-6000, but comically obviously nowhere near 25K.)

How reliable is the MapChecker app? Well, in 2012 we analysed the crowd at the first major indy rally, at the Ross Bandstand in Princes Street Gardens. We estimated that crowd at “somewhere between 6000 and 7000”, and when we asked MapChecker to calculate it today, it reached the exact same conclusion with a figure of 6712. So it seems pretty solid.

We can also check by comparing with the crowd at the Edinburgh Tattoo, which has a known capacity of 8800.

Anyone who thinks that there were three times that many people outside the Scottish Parliament yesterday really needs to make an urgent appointment with Specsavers.

(MapChecker also gets the Tattoo crowd bang on.)

Or perhaps SNP loyalists really believe yesterday’s crowd was twice as big as this:

(And that pic is only showing you maybe 9-10K of the 12K at the Hydro.)

Finally here’s 15,000 at P&J Live – supposedly 10,000 fewer than the rally attendance.

There were just under 150,000 Yes voters in the Edinburgh electoral area in 2014.

So a turnout of under 5000 – including hundreds from the SNP payroll alone – drawn from the whole country compares badly by any measure to the 100,000+ that indy marches held by All Under One Banner could command just a few years back. To borrow a phrase, it looks like the Yes movement is tired of marching.

We can’t blame people. Despite a week-long stream of articles in The National about the march, it seemed much of the time like the “wrong sort” of indy campaigners were being told to stay away.

The basic premise of the march excluded the 33% or so of Yes voters opposed to the EU, Pete Wishart was telling anyone not blindly supportive of the SNP to sod off with all his usual charm, and hosts Alistair Heather and Kelly Given (making a miraculous recovery from Long COVID to march the length of the Royal Mile and present the limp speeches) had strongly hinted that anyone over 40 wasn’t needed or wanted either.

(Given and Heather had also asserted that “at least 15,000” marchers would show, so maybe a few more older folks would have come in handy. Still, the kids had a ball regardless, as seen in a tweet that Heather swiftly deleted when people pointed out it wasn’t very responsible for a clean-cut young movement leader to be seen so blatantly flouting ScotRail’s strict no-booze policy and generally acting like a bunch of pissed-up louts everyone else in the carriage was giving a wide berth.)

But even so, the turnout on a warm, sunny late summer’s day was wretched, far below even the modest 10,000 for which the organisers had sought a licence, for the first indy march officially backed by the SNP since Calton Hill in 2013.

(For comparison, Kilmarnock vs Ross County attracted 5258 and St Johnstone vs Dundee got 5935 through the turnstiles, despite costing around £25 a skull.)

Despite what Lesley Riddoch claimed in a stupid hostage-to-fortune article on Thursday, that does not “reflect on the whole Yes movement and our enthusiasm for independence”. It proves nothing about the desire for independence, which remains firmly where it’s been for the last nine years at roughly half the population.

What it proves is that people don’t think it’s anywhere on the horizon, and that despite Given and Heather’s assertion that “the independence fever is spreading again like it did in 2013/14”, the general public don’t see much point in bothering their backsides to go out and wave flags yet again when there’s no actual event to get excited about. They’re not “knackered”, they’re just not wasting their time, like they don’t put the Christmas decorations up in February.

What it does reflect on is people’s enthusiasm for the SNP, which – according to research commissioned by the party itself – is continuing to tumble, particularly among the younger voters the party is obsessed with above all others.

So far the Yes movement is heroically managing to keep its head above water despite the concrete block of the SNP chained to its ankle. But if the link isn’t broken soon, it’s a matter of debate and concern how long it’ll be able to keep kicking for.

The party’s endorsement of yesterday’s march seems to have been more of a kiss of death than the kiss of life for a movement that’s been starved of meaningful activity for so long by the SNP that it’s finding it hard to get its blood pumping any more.

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  1. 03 09 23 13:15

    F the SNP |

  2. 04 09 23 19:32

    Meanwhile, the punters… |

0 to “To Another World”

  1. Ted

    If you look at the other passengers’ faces in the tweet Heather deleted, you see a metaphor for the continued support for Independence: spoiler alert, not much.

  2. Stoker

    That top pic, just enough to play hide-n-seek. LOL!

    That’s your legacy, Sturgeon.

  3. Astonished

    You just can’t argue with anything you’ve said.

    A terrible reflection of the last 10 years of Sturgeon’s and her transcult’s leadership.

    They must read the runes and know that they’re finished. And deservedly so.

    I wonder what they’ll try to steal next ?

    I honestly hope none of them ever get back into politics.

  4. Geoff Anderson

    “When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don’t adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.” — Confucius

    In summary dump the SNP if you want Independence,

  5. Ruby

    ‘tired of marching’ That is the impression I got of this march. There were some pipers at the beginning of the march but after that everyone marched very slowly in total silence. They didn’t seem very enthusiastic.

  6. Livionian

    Peroni “socialists”

  7. Ruby

    ‘What it does reflect on is people’s enthusiasm for the SNP’

    It’s depressing that there are that many misogynists in Scotland.

    SNP = Misogynee.

  8. Cynicus

    Quality can trump quantity.

    The drowning SNP, revealingly, clutched at that straw with its publicity.

    Who is front and centre in the poster above?

    Not hapless Humza who is supporting actor to a real one: Brian Cox in authoritative Logan Roy pose. Alas, he withdrew due to illness, diplomatic or otherwise.

    So, the payroll boosted astroturf march had to contend with both a poor turnout in ideal weather to see and hear the same old, same old.

  9. 100%Yes

    Has Humza or the SG received a call from the PM south of the border? Answer no and their not likely to ever.

    While the SNP play for devolution but pretend they want Independence the rest of us including the EU are really waiting for something to happen, which in the real world with the SNP and Humza as leader, nothing will. This was a pantomime all about stop the dwindling membership, loss of revenues and public support.

    Will Scotland vote for Independence, yes I believe they will and this is probably the reason why both government north and south of the border will not allow us to express that view, here lies the Cul-de-sac everyone talks about for me Salmond hasn’t learnt any lessons in the last 9yrs and he’s made Alba a small version of the SNP.

    The problems with Scotland isn’t the UKG, its the SNP, they are the real problem and if we allowed them to continue using us like pawns to their own ends, Scotland will still be hearing the same old that we heard yesterday its time to take Scotland future away from the political classes who really are happy with the status quo and get behind Salvo. Its funny how the march yesterday is in all the papers and on TV, but yet AUOB marches aren’t. We all know the SNP isn’t for Independence and wouldn’t it be dreadful if the SNP was to collapse as a party, well it would for the Unionist.

    Today Humza will do nothing and tomorrow Sunak will say nothing and on Tuesday the SNP and all the people making money out of Independence will carry on as if they have won a victory, well a victory never wins you the war.

  10. Beauvais

    The SNP is now just a charade. You’ll be welcomed into the SNP if you’re ambitious. Just as long as that ambition is solely for yourself and not for your country.

    The SNP is the enemy in allied clothing.

  11. Ian Brotherhood

    When was the last time either of the Murrells was seen in public?

    We’re going nowhere until they’re dealt with.

  12. 100%Yes

    I reckon it you count The Rag’s subscription you’ll have your attendance number.


    Even 25k would be just a few by European political demonstration standards.
    There is a point when the smile looks vacuous, inane and rather stupid.
    Monkeys «smile» when disturbed and threatened.
    The «young lad» practising his ancestral climbing skills?

  14. Iain McGlade

    Have they said how much they made from their bucket collection? All those folded notes should add up to a fabulous new fighting fund, ring fenced for an office refurb or some such necessity.

  15. Ian Brotherhood

    Lesley Riddoch here, flushing what remained of her ‘journalistic’ credentials doon the lavvy by claiming that Police Scotland ‘apparently’ confirmed 25k attendance despite it being common knowledge amongst event organisers generally that the cops don’t do estimates.

    Kamikaze tweeting.

  16. Mia

    It seemed obvious to me the organisation of yesterday’s march had nothing to do with independence and an awful lot to do with estimating how much support from the pro-indy grassroots the SNP still commands.

    Judging by the figures, that support is now rather little.

    It was claimed in April the party had 74,889 members. Well, 4,221 attendees represents less than a 6% of the party’s claimed membership figure.

    Considering that 4,221 figure included many SNP and Green MPs, MSPs, their staffers, their families, friends, the associates milking the indy movement for their own economic gain, and reporters, I actually question how accurate that membership figure is today.

    This was the very first pro-independence march officially endorsed by the FM, the SNP and Greens. After 9 years of drought, I would expect all SNP and Green members being more than eager to participate.

    When the “leader” of the “independence party”, who controls 80% of Scotland’s seats in Westminster and leads a pro-indy majority at Holyrood, can only bring together less than 5,000, it is clear as day it is time for Humza and his devolutionist gravy train riders to close shop and move back to labour, which is where devolutionists belong.

    I think the number of people who is now seeing through the SNP deception has reached critical mass.

    For the last 9 years, the SNP has had in its power to force a referendum by collapsing the Holyrood parliament to force an election, and by withdrawing the anti-union MPs from Westminster temporarily suspending the Treaty of Union. But, conveniently for the British establishment, it has systematically refused to do by constantly handing the referendum veto to Westminster.

    Sturgeon and now Yousaf are hiding behind the UK government and the mythical S30 like cowards because they do not have the balls to admit their voters they do not want to deliver independence and have no intention whatsoever of ever doing so.

  17. panda paws

    It will be much more interesting to compare the estimated attendance yesterday on a bright sunny day with the AUOB attendance in Edinburgh in October.

    I think the SNP “leadership” may slowly be coming to the realisation that support for independence is no longer the same as support for the SNP. If the SNP and Greens do heehaw to deliver independence then they are of no use to me and I suspect many others.

  18. Robert Hughes

    ” To Another ( Green ) World ” . Sorry , Eno ; pretty sure the ” world ” you envisaged bears no resemblance to the one we’ve ended-up with . Ah well , Here Come The Lukewarm Wets .

    More dissembling from the getting-more-desperate-by-the-minute SNPpers . Would YOU buy a second-hand , rusted n busted Indy vehicle from this lot ?

    Despite having everything in it’s favour – the imprimatur of * Official * SNP , heavy promotion by Party fanzine the Notional and it’s paid-for pundits AND pleasant weather – they couldn’t muster a crowd anywhere near approaching the 100+ attendees of – some – AUOB marches . This despite a looming , highly significant , perhaps Nu SNP fate-determining G.E . The only surprise is that Polis Scotland hasn’t said the crowd was between 900,000- 1,000,000 strong – in contradiction of it’s usual underestimating of attendance numbers .

    Their spin saw-doctors will be frantically attempting to conjure-up an alternative reality where yesterday’s event was a roaring success and Independence is just around the corner .

    That corner must be the most extensive on the planet .

  19. Geoff Bush

    Some friends did a rough count at the start of the march as it passed. Between 3000 & 4000 absolute max. Strong SNP and Green representation, but also a smattering of ALBA and Salvo folks.

  20. Republicofscotland

    No comment from Police Scotland yet on the numbers attending?. When its a AUOB march the numbers given by Police Scotland are always lower than the actual number, no doubt because this fake indy march is run by the SNP the numbers will be wildly exaggerated.

    We really need to get the SNP out, I thought they couldn’t do much more damaged to the indy cause or Scotland for that matter, but it looks like Scotland has a long way still to fall under this bunch of lying deceitful grifters and careerists.

    SNP out at every election, Vote Alba Join Alba.

  21. Ian Brotherhood

    Wishart is also going with the 25k lie, and this is just an hour ago.

  22. Ian

    If Humza thinks that Sturgeon is the “most impressive politician in Europe”, while Sturgeon claims that she “would have loved to have taken Scotland to independence, that’s one of the regrets I have that I as leader didn’t manage to do that”, why didn’t Sturgeon make an appearance?

    Actions always speak louder than words.

  23. willie

    So Humza Yousaf is a liar or a fool or both.

    This miniscule, and it is miniscule when you consider previous independence marches, show how utterly discredited Humza Yousaf and his SNP have become. This frankly was a validation of what the electorate think of him and his party.

    The graph Rev Stu shows of the extent to which the SNP has fallen across the various age groups is further evidence that the SNP is now dead men walking.

    This stunt by Yousaf to try and con the electorate has just, by this piss poor attendance, blown up in his face.

  24. Dave Llewellyn

    The crowd looked comparable to the one we had at Hands off our Parliament in2018. I put up a diagram that we had measured out for that day and it estimated the crowd at between 4250 and 5500. The whole green space where the action was held has a capacity of 5000 for the purposes of a Health and Safety risk assessment which we carried out. There is also an expectation from Edinburgh council that there will be 1 steward for every ten marchers and as they were confidently expecting to have 15000 attendees I would have expected to see around one in five wearing a hi Viz top. From the photos I have I have seen that preparation has not been carried out . Not has there been a risk assessment as to the safe numbers if the organisers have put out a figure of 25000. Where is the 20000 overspill? Half way up the royal mile? Over the brow of Arthur’s seat ? Or hidden in the warped imaginations of Humza Youssaf and Gordon MacIntyre Kemp. I wouldn’t like to be the auditors for either of them with their inability to do simple arithmetic .

  25. David Ross

    But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.”

  26. John Main

    There’s still a Real World out there.

    The news from it continues to be innarestin.

    North Sea oil production continues to slump. Down from 25 million tons for Jan-Jun in 2003, via 20 mill tons for same period last year, to 17.4 mill tons for this year.

    Department of Energy figures, reported in the hated MSM DM, so in accordance with Wings BTL received wisdom, all lies, of course. Still, makes you think.

    I’ve got an idea. Plot these figures on a graph. Add in North Sea gas production. Extrapolate forwards in time until the graphs hit zero. That will give you the date at which serious Indy preparations will be permitted to start.

    5 minutes in Excel is all that will take to work out. Armed with that date, we can all do something useful in the intervening years (decades?) until then.

  27. Breeks

    That’s a bit lower than the low estimate I said yesterday…

    Do I believe it’s as high as 25k? No, afraid not. Do I believe it’s a low as 8k? No. So, somewhere in between. Half one and double the other, and you’re looking at 12.5k to 16k…. -ish. Probably as good a guess as anybody’s.

    OK, Rev’s gone lower still, but that’s the crowd outside Holyrood, but don’t forget a lot of folks are fair puggled at the end of a march, and don’t linger for the speeches. Too hot, sare feet, weary pins, dogs out of water, mobility scooters out of juice…etc. A LOT of people don’t hang around.

    I agree 100% these people are being badly led by chancers and charlatans on the make. Presumeably through misguided loyalty, they suffer a dismal, dysfuntional leadership which has the UK Establishment to thank for it’s dismal dysfuntion. But we mustn’t see these people as our enemy, or all is lost.

    If we could find it in us to forgive and embrace the NO to YES brigade in 2014-15, the non-thinkers who sank our cause but then, too late, regretted what they’d done, then we need some kind of reconciliatory attitudes to make their presence felt NOW, and help these non-thinkers to get with the programme BEFORE the decisive battle on the horizon commences.

    One way or another, Scotland United must happen.

    Scotland United must be everybody’s mission.

    Maybe Scotland United has to shun ALL the bickering from our squabbling politicians, ans style itself as the true Grassroots Independence Movement of the people.

    I respectfully suggest however, we can do this without the bickering charlatans, but we must keep faith with SALVO, and persuade the International Community that Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution is the legitimate and superior antecedent to the bogus and illegitimate concept of UK sovereignty, which currently enjoys popular but misguided recognition.

    This is the battle we cannot afford to lose.

  28. George Ferguson

    After the 2014 referendum the SNP came up with the strap line “Stronger for Scotland” and it worked a treat in the 2015 GE. And now in the face of falling support another rebranding to “Believe in Scotland”. Given their performance as the Scottish Government nobody believes anything. A doomed rebrand. Keep digging Humza.

  29. Johnlm

    4000 on the grass.
    21000 ‘woven into’ the parliament building.


  30. Graeme George

    I used to have so much respect for Lesley Riddoch but that evaporated when she referred to Sturgeon as ”A Bonnie Fecter” after stabbing Alex Salmond in the back, she’s a fraud

  31. Red

    Ian says:
    3 September, 2023 at 10:47 am
    If Humza thinks that Sturgeon is the “most impressive politician in Europe”, while Sturgeon claims that she “would have loved to have taken Scotland to independence, that’s one of the regrets I have that I as leader didn’t manage to do that”, why didn’t Sturgeon make an appearance?

    Mibbe she and Peter went tae Largs in the motorhome?

    I’m surprised it took this long for people to sus out a wee fly wumman who already freely told you her political hero is Hillary Clinton (D – $$$$$), but better late than never eh?

  32. Peter

    I see Wishart is claiming the 25k figure too. Now given his history of outdoor gigs with Runrig you would think he is perfectly able to judge roughly the size of a crowd while looking out on it .
    So either senility has set in or he’s lying.
    I know which my money is on.

  33. Ian Brotherhood

    Pete Wishart
    Really encouraging that some Alba voices are at last turning their back on Wings, and it’s great news he’s thinking of leaving Yes. I just pray he takes his toxic, divisive poison to the No side and works his ‘magic’ on them….

  34. Ian Brotherhood

    Pete Wishart
    There’s barely been a more divisive figure in any political movement. His obsessions & hatred of whole communities. His denigration of young people, particularly young women. The grotesque stuff about Liverpool fans. His General vile hate. Good riddance. The Nos can have him.

  35. robertkknight

    More “Green Mile” than “Royal Mile”…

    “Dead party walking! We gotta dead party walking here! Dead party walking!”

  36. Robert McAllan

    There is a distinct possibility a drone might have been ‘taken out’ by an alert security agent had it strayed anywhere near Gullible and his fellow travellers.

    No mony SNP rags fleein therr. Huv they run oot o’ funds or whit?

  37. James Barr Gardner

    They only managed 6k max, perhaps the the other 19k were WOVEN through the trees and bushes ?

  38. Republicofscotland

    What people need to remember is that Humza Yousaf now FM, said during the SNP leadership contest (if you can call Murrell allowing GCHQ the mortal enemy of Scottish independence to aid with the “contest”) that Nicola Sturgeon is the smartest person he knows and if she couldn’t deliver Scottish independence, NO ONE CAN.

    Oh the likes of Wishart, and Yousaf have now mentioned Plan B the 50+1% route, however Yousaf was firm and adamant that there’s no way out of this union without Westminster’s consent which he sees as does Kate Forbes (why do you think it was arranged for Ash Regan to finish last in the leadership contest) that this requires an S30 from Westminster.

    Oh the SNP and its affiliates can shout and march all they want, they can promise like they’ve done for the last decade to achieve, (or at the very least show that they are trying to achieve independence which they haven’t) dissolving this union, but that’s all it is talk the last decade shows us this.

    From the previous Lord Advocate and the SNP opposing Martin Keatings from finding out if we really needed an S30 (which in itself told me we don’t) to the plethora of wasted mandates, the missing 600k ringfenced indy money, the fitting up and imprisoning of Craig Murray, the attempted fit ups of Alex Salmond (which isn’t over by a long shot) Mark Hirst, David Llewellyn, the closing down, or the attempted closing down of another indyref by the SNP via the new Lord Advocate.

    This is just the tip of a very large iceberg that firmly points to the current SNP doing everything in its powers to thwart Scotland from leaving this union, so to suddenly say that yesterday’s march is a march for Scottish independence is utter nonsense.

    The SNP now NOT a party for Scottish independence by its march on Saturday in Edinburgh is trying to win back voters and weaken the the real indy movement of Alba, AUOB and some very good indy bloggers respectively.

    The SNP wants to keep or gain more seats at Westminster, it knows half the population wants independence so what better a way to keep or gain more MPs/councillors/MSPs than to appeal to those people, even if as in the last decade you’ve no intentions of delivering what you promised which is dissolving the union.

    Lets also add in that the SNP couldn’t do this alone, they have a multitude of affiliates who also ride this political gravy train, some where in attendance yesterday.

    You want Scottish independence? then vote the SNP/Greens out and replace them with Alba MPs/MSPs/Councillors.

  39. James

    AUOB Saturday 7th October, 12:30 from Holyrood Park.

    Bring a camera, let’s show them what 25,000+ *really* looks like?

  40. Mac

    Mon tae fuck you lot. There are clearly at least 100,000 people there. It is just that 95,000 were ring-fenced by Peter Murrell so they are invisible.

  41. Astonished

    ” Ian Brotherhood says:
    3 September, 2023 at 9:54 am

    When was the last time either of the Murrells was seen in public?

    We’re going nowhere until they’re dealt with. ”

    Spot on.

    And that is the problem. We need rid of the Murrells, the continuity candidate, cosyfeet, the transcult and the grifters. By my reckoning about 200 people.

    Once they are gone – Things will happen.

    I strongly suspect Rutherglen will be the straw that breaks the camels back. Ironic, Eh ?

  42. Antoine Roquentin

    As predicted at 18:30 last evening by Madame Roquentin: at 19:00 BBC Scotland opened its fifteen-minute Scottish news slot with the SNP march. ” Whit did a tell ye!” uttered she, triumphantly, amongst other observations.

  43. Lorna Campbell

    Johnim: I had to laugh at that one. Brilliant!

    More than I would have expected, but nowhere near 25,000. The problem for any organization anywhere, at any time, is that it must reflect nous and experience, and these come with age. It is no reflection on young people to say they have to get that nous and that experience or they will sink the ship under a sea of youthful exuberance with nothing to back it up: it’s just how life is; the same as men cannot be women and vice versa. Human beings always try to tame and change Mother Nature, but she’s a bitch and clings to reality come what may; and she has a habit of exacting a price for the feeble human attempts to undermine her.

    Many independence supporters have had enough of the trail of carrots and just will not bite any longer, until something real and concrete is done to remedy matters.

  44. Robert Hughes

    Not O/T given yesterday’s * thing * was themed around an iScotland joining the E.U . ( Despite zero recognition of that only ever being possible with Scotland having it’s own currency , something they’ve fannied about on and tried to bury under a mass of conflicting statements ) .

    The new E.U DSA – Digital Services Act – has now come into effect .

    Sold on the basis of ” preventing child pornography , * hate speech * and – the clinchers – ” preventing mis/disinformation ”

    Alors ! Aren’t we SO fortunate to have these impeccably democratic , freedom-loving , unbiased , incorruptible Euro-Bureaucrats working tirelessly to protect us from all manner of nasty thoughts , ideas & opinions ?

    In effect , they can compel any online platform to take-down anything THEY ( the E.U ) deem to be misinformation , hate speech etc ; with the threat of closing down any such platform that fails to comply . BTW Great Liberator Musky Elon has agreed and signed-up to this . Worra guy .

    This latest instance of the war on freedom of expression makes the idea – so zealously promoted by SNP – of joining the E.U even more of a disaster-in-waiting , guaranteed to lose even more support for the SNP & by extension Independence .

    Make no mistake , compadres , the struggle we face is much more complex , insidious and fraught with dire consequences than rid of the current SNP ( Indy ) Management .

  45. duncanio

    Breeks says:
    3 September, 2023 at 11:03 am

    “Maybe Scotland United has to shun ALL the bickering from our squabbling politicians, ans style itself as the true Grassroots Independence Movement of the people.”

    Not sure about the name suggested: G.I.M.P.?

  46. Geoff Anderson

    We still have the discredited SNP tugging their forelocks when London speaks.They could have refused to attend Westminster but the Short Money, Salary, Pensions and Perks were far too enticing.
    They accepted their place as good little HouseJocks.


    …..a further attempt was made at the Irish Convention to resolve the impasse over Home Rule, but without success. Finally, the British proposal to extend conscription for the war to Ireland provoked widespread resistance, (see Conscription Crisis of 1918) and discredited the Irish Parliamentary Party who had supported the British war effort.

    All of these factors led to a swing towards support for Sinn Féin – the party which was led by veterans of the Easter Rising and which stood for an independent Irish Republic. In the 1918 Irish general election, Sinn Féin won the vast majority of seats, many of which were uncontested. Sinn Féin’s elected candidates refused to attend the UK Parliament at Westminster and instead assembled in Dublin as a new revolutionary parliament called “Dáil Éireann”. They declared the existence of a new state called the “Irish Republic” and established a system of government to rival the institutions of the United Kingdom.

  47. Red

    “WHITE PEOPLE could be here” he thought, “I’ve never been in this neighbourhood before. There could be WHITE PEOPLE anywhere.”

    The cool wind felt good against his greasy forehead. Shitty bhangra music reverberated his entire motorhome, making it pulsate even as the £9 Costa Mocha Frappe pulsed through his powerful thick veins and washed away his fear of white people getting jobs in Scotland.

    “With a motorhome, you can go anywhere you want” he said to himself, out loud.

  48. Willie

    Fair grimaced at thd various quips about there being nothing like the numbers attending the march as claimed by Humza and the clique.

    20,000 woven through the bushes, woven through the building or just earmarked really does reflect this busted SNP. Money, trust, reputation, members and now voters all gone.

    And it will be the voters woven through the constituency of Rutherglen and Hamilton that ate going to bring into sharp relief just how politically bankrupt brand Humza and SNP actually are.

    Aye Humza, like the missing money your voters are similarly woven through the electorate.Yesterday showed us that.

  49. Northcode

    Robert Hughes @ 12:19pm

    I’ve always thought the European Union and the Eurozone was a good thing. But since reading ‘The Implosion of Capitalism’ by Samir Amin I’m not so sure.

    Amin has an interesting perspective on the European Union as the entity it has become since 1992. He thinks the EU has had its day and is nearing the end of its lifespan:

    At least since the Maastricht Treaty and, in my opinion, since much earlier, the construction of the European Union and of the Eurozone have been conceived and designed as components for the construction of so-called liberal globalization, construction of a system to assure the exclusive domination of generalized-monopoly capitalism.

    The “European” project as defined by the Maastricht Treaty and the Eurozone project were sold to public opinion by a propaganda campaign that can only be described as imbecilic and disingenuous…

    Thus the worst is still to come: in one way or another, abruptly or gradually, the European project is to be split apart, starting with the Eurozone.

    Then it’s back to the starting line: the 1930s.

    We would have a mark zone limited to Germany and the countries it dominates on its eastern and southern borders, the Dutch and Scandinavians autonomous but willing to conform, a Great Britain distanced even more from the vicissitudes of continental politics by its Atlanticism, an isolated France (as with de Gaulle? or Vichy?), and a Spain and an Italy unsure and volatile…

    We are in a crucial period in history. The only legitimacy of capitalism is to have created the conditions for passing on to socialism, understood
    as a higher stage of civilization.

    Capitalism is now an obsolete system, its continuation leading only to barbarism…

    extracts from The Implosion of Capitalism (2014)
    by Samir Amin

    Samir Amin thinks the whole European Union project has had a liberal globalisation objective for quite a while now – the domination of what he calls generalized-monopoly capitalism.


    The Herding of the Toothless Sheep.
    Scotland’s «leaders» can’t help handing the adversary such bespoke propaganda ops.
    Red in tooth and claw, I wonder what THAT would look like.
    Despite all that gender stuff, the «young» are deserting the SNP, according to the Sunday Times, in droves.
    Being in that category I must confess to finding ALL politics and politicians a bore; complacent, smug, out of touch, pedestrian, bloated and flatulent and flagrantly «mendacious».
    Something dramatic, shocking, edgy, revolutionary….something that actually SCARES the adversary? An other world indeed.
    In the meantime it seems dentures for the flock will have to suffice.

  51. Dek

    Cancel culture rules in the SNP. It’s fear.They lack the intellectual capacity to debate with independence supporting voices who dissent from the party line. Instead like Wishart they pour vitriol. Wishart does not have the guts to face down his critics and he more than anyone will be responsible for the Tories taking
    his seat at the next GE.The rally yesterday was based on a lie,that Scotland is poised for independence. A lie exposed by the total failure to learn the lessons of 2014 and clean house after the hubristic disaster called Sturgeon .

  52. Mia

    “Nicola Sturgeon is the smartest person he knows and if she couldn’t deliver Scottish independence, NO ONE CAN”

    The thing is Nicola Sturgeon could have delivered Scotland’s independence any day in the last 8 years should she had wanted. She had control of anti-union majorities both in Westminster and Holyrood.

    But she chose not to because delivering independence was never in her priority list. She chose to deceive voters for almost 9 years.

    By the look of it, Yousaf is following, albeit less successfully, the same strategy.

    Sturgeon chose to destroy the SNP as a vehicle for independence, transforming it into an undemocratic, devolutionist, saturated with grifters and useless copycat of labour.

    It doesn’t look like Yousaf is doing much to correct that either.

    Sturgeon chose to act as another tool in the crown’s extensive utility box to protect its beloved union at the expense of the needs, wants and democratic will of the Scottish people.

    And when she was about to run out of piste in her signature deception road, she got the crown to cover her backside by displaying a charade in an English court, with English judges, and using English law convention to usurp control of Scotland’s effing legislative body.

    That is not what a pro-independence leader, never mind a democrat, does. That is what a dishonest, unprincipled, unethical individual with the uttermost contempt for democracy and for Scotland’s right to self-determination does.

    Nicola Sturgeon simply handed the English crown the opportunity to claim Scotland is its property. But it is for us to accept or not such outrageous farce. I do not.

    In a democracy the crown has no business usurping the legislative power so it can micromanage the legislative body to its own interest and to the detriment of the real sovereign who owns that legislative body. In Scotland that sovereign is the Scottish people.

    A FM who places an unelected representative of the crown in the cabinet, so the power to control the legislative body is taken away from the people of Scotland by the back door and handed to the crown, is no democrat. They are not even a FM. They are just a viceroy.

    Yousaf appears to have set himself in the same category of crown tool who uses deception to continue to fool yes voters. He has chosen to retain the unelected representative of the crown in the middle of executive power. In addition, the very first thing he did on becoming FM was to humiliate Scotland by handing over to the English king Scotland’s stone of destiny.

    He did this without the consent of the Scottish people. Democrat and republican by foot.

  53. Robert Hughes

    @ Northcode .

    Thanks for that quote ; I find it very convincing .

    Like you , I was always ( broadly , though not 100% ) pro-E.U and thought it would be in an iScotland’s best interest to become a member .

    Not now . It’s now become another anti-Democratic tool for social control , an almost perfect example of Orwellian/Kafkaesque faceless , unaccountable , malign bureaucracy .

    * Coincidentally * , it’s sinister deterioration into something barely recognisable from it’s founding principals mirrors the exact same corrupting departure as the SNP .

    Both formerly admirable ideas/institutions captured and corrupted from the inside ; and now no longer acting for the good of the people they are supposed to represent ; and protect.

    Sturgeon and Von Der Leyen have much more in common with each other and the Globalist agenda than they do with their own people . Ditto Yousaf .

  54. Paul Wilson

    I was always doubtful that a blogger living in Bath would seriously be in favour of Scottish Independence and by this rubbish my doubts were correct. Good riddance to your blog since you put numbers up against the rally figures funny how you don’t analyse your on blog readership it is nowhere near the numbers you claim.
    What’s your great plan to achieve indie then? Oh that’s right you live in some alternative universe where White is Black and Black is White.
    Goodbye TRAITOR!

  55. Red

    Robert Hughes says:
    3 September, 2023 at 1:42 pm
    @ Northcode .

    Thanks for that quote ; I find it very convincing .

    Like you , I was always ( broadly , though not 100% ) pro-E.U and thought it would be in an iScotland’s best interest to become a member .

    Not now . It’s now become another anti-Democratic tool for social control , an almost perfect example of Orwellian/Kafkaesque faceless , unaccountable , malign bureaucracy

    The political divide isn’t between left and right, or even Yoon vs Nationalist.

    The political divide is between Power and the People.

    All the main political parties work for Power, against the interests of their enemies (us, the People).

  56. Shug

    Certainly starting to look like Humza is toast by the end of the year.

    There can be no reviving the SNP unless they become radical.

    By that I mean disrupt Westminster, crash the Scottish parliament, unite all indy parties, clear out the roasters involved in the Vietnam group and move forward.

    Sadly I think his tendency to follow “sound guidance” from those around him some of whom are plants will lead to him losing and the party being wiped at the next election.

    I suppose that will be a good thing in the long run

  57. PhilM

    The trouble with quoting Paris-educated intellectuals like Samir Amin is that they tend to exaggerate their claims or make extrapolations from evidence that are tainted with confirmation bias. Another problem with intellectuals like Amin is that it’s not always easy to tell if they’re constructing their object of study as they go about analysing it so that it appears inevitably outwardly convincing. I don’t find your quote says much about anything. There’s no analysis there, just assertions.
    As for certain intellectual Marxists, the revolution or socialism is always just round the corner. Same with your quote about inevitable collapse: the EU, like any conglomeration of nations, is a constantly shifting, constantly unstable mess of an organisation but I’m pretty sure it will last at least as long as the old Soviet Union. That takes us up to 2060 or so and God only knows what the state of the world will be like then
    As for Samir’s particular tradition, reading Marx himself (which I would recommend to anyone, especially the first volume of Capital), is like going on a wonderful intellectual voyage, where vista after vista shows itself, but then Marx was at the tail-end of classical political economy and benefited from that legacy. Sadly, those writing on political economy after Marx do not have his gifts or his range.
    Lastly, the purveyors of the paranoid style BTL are quite entertaining but you should never underestimate the forces that have an interest in a stable order. I really thought things might change post-2008 but no, if anything things are worse in many ways…but that’s for another day.

  58. Red Wall

    There’s a simple path, and it’s independence, but not yet. Independence once we have grownup government and don’t have to dissemble when GERS comes out.

  59. Red Wall

    Actually, flying a drone over that crowd and taking pictures would be illegal.

  60. Red Wall

    Rutherglen, where Alba won’t stand because it would split the independence vote, so the people get to decide between gender self-id nutjobs – even the sodding SSP FFS!

  61. christine

    I did wonder if this wee crowd of apparatchiks had to sign the official Code of Conduct beforehand. Those with a glimmer of independent thought were not welcome. Women whose views and opinions on self ID, which are “ not valid “, were not welcome. Those who object to the deviant toxic ideology being taught in our schools were not welcome.

    T.I.E., time for inclusive education, is being pushed by the Greens into all aspects of the school curriculum. Patrick Harvie shared a platform with P.I.E., the paedophile information exchange. When you dig into the underlying ideology of Queer Theory, 50% of it is defending paedophilia. QT proponents always seem to want to involve children in their activities.

    When you object to their world view you are condemned. Your views don’t matter, you are smeared, you are not valued, you do not exist. You may even be arrested. This is straight out of the playbook of totalitarian states. The business of law is not the discovery of truth but the imposition of the power of the state upon its citizens.

    The SNP and deviant Greens conduct is reprehensible. Their inevitable downfall can’t come soon enough. We must retain the ability to resist their mindless gibberish. Heartfelt thanks and gratitude to Stuart for his fierce intellectual and unflinching determination to uncover the real truths beneath the corruption, secrets and lies at the dark heart of the SNP and Greens.

  62. President Xiden

    Ms Riddoch appears to have down graded the attendance to 10 000, despite telling us yesterday that it was 25 000 as ‘confirmed’ by police Scotland. Journalists gotta journo I suppose.

  63. Corrado Mella

    I’ve waited until after the numbers for yesterday’s march were banded about toake judgement.

    Now I finally can officially say that the Saint Nicola’s Party is dead.

    This was the party that could pull the Yes movement to 100K marches and terrify the BritNazi Establishment enough for them to field every cheat in the book to sway the Indyref result back to No.
    Anyone with more than one neuron knows that no other country on the planet that ran an Independence referendum voted No.
    If you believe that result was genuine I’m not wasting my time and brain cells on you.
    The disgraceful fact that the electoral fraud involving 800,000 postal votes blatantly tampered with was not challenged is an indelible stain on our country.

    We need to either regroup behind a true Leader or completely abandon ship and let Scotland to sink with all the rats infesting it.

    There’s far more interesting countries populated with stronger people that would welcome hard working Scots.

  64. Robert Hughes

    ” Lastly, the purveyors of the paranoid style BTL are quite entertaining ” .

    I don’t know who you have in mind with that statement – Phil , but if you think anyone referring to what’s happening/happened to just about all our institutions , police , NHS , judiciary and political parties and MSM is ” paranoid ” , I suggest you go easy on the * soma * and take a look around you .

    I couldn’t give a fuck what Samir Amin’s background is , or – what – you imagine – is his intellectual shortcomings , that quote rings true for me .

    The point is not whether or not or how long the E.U survives – in it’s present form ; the point is what it’s doing now , what it’s become and they manner in which it’s damaging the people under it’s influence .

  65. Cynicus

    President Xiden says:
    3 September, 2023 at 2:59 pm

    “Ms Riddoch appears to have down graded the attendance to 10 000, despite telling us yesterday that it was 25 000”
    That is a 60% cut in under 24 hours.

    Give her another day and a 60% cut in her revised figure will bring her pretty close to Rev’ s estimate.


    Truly, the SNP leadership has consistently underestimated the POWER of ESTABLISHMENT. For the political wing of a supposedly «liberation movement» a major miscalculation.
    Is there an Independence for Dummies?
    Failing that, the leadership might take a look at how other nations managed it, many with less assets than Scotland possesses.
    Re the EU, the idea was to establish a third independent force between raw capitalism and communism. The worst thing that ever happened to that idea was the admission of the buccaneering capitalist virus of the British. De Gaulle never trusted the British, how prescient he was.
    Vive l’Écosse véritablement libre.

  67. Billy Carlin

    Northcode 1:04pm

    The EU was set up for a purpose – just like the UN was set up as the soon to be, if the MAFIAS get away with their agenda, World Government :

    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the Superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually AND IRREVERSIBLY LEAD TO FEDERATION – Jean Monnet – father of the EU and Rothschild puppet” and that federation will be known as the United States of Europe and still ruled over by the UNELECTED Commissioners that run it on behalf of the MAFIAS who own and control most of this planet just now. There is a massive upswing against the EU in many of the countries in that organisation because their economies are being destroyed just like ours is and also because of the massive flooding of their countries with immigrants as well. Looks as if that might be collapsing at some point and hopefully soon to put a spanner in the agenda of these MAFIAS.

    Robert Hughes 12:19pm

    It is not just the EU that is coming out with a Digital Services Act to supposedly counter “online harms” to kids and misinformation etc to “protect the kids” – the Scottish Government and Westminster Government and just about every government on the planet is all following the orders of the WEF, UN etc on behalf of their MAFIA masters. The FACT that there is already laws in place to protect the kids makes no difference to these crooks especially how the governments are covering up – and involved – in so much child abuse and trafficking which is a massive worldwide problem but the REAL reason for these new “laws” as you know is to shut down everyone reporting their corruption and the TRUTH about what is really going on and what these corrupt crooks are up to.

  68. Agent x

    There is nothing in the photos of the lads on the train to indicate they are going to the march and rally. No flags or anything. They may well be on their way to a football game.

  69. Alf Baird

    Red Wall @ 2:43 pm

    “Rutherglen, where Alba won’t stand because it would split the independence vote”

    ISP’s Colette Walker is standing on a pro-independence and abstentionist ticket, i.e. she would refuse to take a seat or oath in Westminster if elected. So there is one genuine pro-independence candidate to vote for.

    ISP statement:

    “If we win a Westminster seat, we will not sit. We feel that any MPs talents are better spent in the constituency helping people and building the cause of independence, rather than sitting purposeless in a system that we cannot influence. The answers to Scotland’s problems are not to be found in Westminster, but here in Scotland and it is from here we will push the cause of independence, with or without Westminster’s permission. Neither will we take the oath to King Charles.”–hamilton-west-by-election

  70. Alastair

    I find it extraordinary that the SNP who are so obviously cash strapped, with all their MP’s and staff, MSP’s and staff, Councillors , SPAD’d, HQ staff and supposed army of volunteer members walk behind the banner of, bucket collection and on-line appeal payments to Believe in Scotland.
    A one Director Private Limited Company.
    Will they be outsourcing all of their Independence Campaign.

  71. DavidT

    I don’t think Brian Cox’s name was mentioned once, even to wish him a speedy recovery. He was supposed to be the star of the rally, too.

  72. Michael Laing

    @ Agent x at 4.19pm:

    You appear to be missing a not-insignificant detail: the photos of the drinkers on the train were posted on Alistair Heather’s Twitter, and were presumably taken by him. Even if the idiots in the photos weren’t his buddies, I think this demonstrates a rather lax attitude to law-breaking and general idiocy.

  73. Michael Laing

    @ Alf Baird at 4.31pm:

    Red Wall is a Tory who thinks Scotland should keep nuclear weapons. I doubt if you’ll have much luck in convincing him of the benefits of voting ISP or supporting independence.

  74. Michael Laing

    @ Corrado Mella at 3.00pm:

    I still have screenshots of many of the on-line polls from the lead-up to the referendum, every one of which – including those on unionist web-sites and belonging to anti-independence newspapers – showed support for independence at anything from 75% to 95%. I never saw a single poll that put ‘No’ in the lead. I have always asked how it could be that ‘No’-voters were uniquely incapable of voting in on-line polls, and have never received a satisfactory answer. Then there were the multiple reports of blank-backed ballot papers which were never investigated, and at least two people who reported finding piles of Yes votes discarded in waste bins following the count. One of those was a lady who was charged with handling stolen property, as I recall. And then there’s the patently obvious fact that the ‘No’ campaign was nothing but an astroturf campaign, while ‘Yes’ meetings and marches were attracting thousands of people all over Scotland.

    I was convinced that ‘Yes’ would win the referendum. If you doubt the supposed result, you are certainly not alone.


    Alistair Heather has a thing about toxic males and their loutish, laddish behaviour. He’s written stuff about detoxifying youth.
    As with everything SNP at the moment more than meets the innocent eye?
    Go figure!

  76. John Main

    That’s a simple statement of fact. The purveyors of the paranoid style BTL are quite entertaining.

    Another entertaining feature of BTL is that simple, incontrovertible facts are either farcically challenged, or ignored.

    Anyhoo, here’s another wee fact. Rev Stu published his article “The Day The SNP Died” on 23rd August, so two weeks past on Wednesday. Seems to me this wake has been dragged out long enough. Time to cremate the corpse and move on.

    Or are some regulars intending to spin this SNP hating out until May 2026? Some of us will be deid by then.

  77. sog

    Did Pete attend any of the previous marches?

  78. George Ferguson

    @John Main 6:22pm
    I wouldn’t use the term hating the SNP. I was a member and have family and friends that members today. Earlier on I pointed out the efficacy of their marketing strategy for the GE next year. The SNP don’t like criticism but nevertheless they are the Scottish Government. Bereft of talent and struggling for a vision. A period in opposition will teach them a lesson. Power is a privilege which they have abused.

  79. Johnlm

    Close elections and referenda with less than 5% between winners and losers seem much more common nowadays across the World. ( UK GEs excepted – due to FPTP?)
    Elections often combined with opinion polls which are hopelessly wrong.
    It makes me suspicious.
    I wonder if nip and tuck votes gives room to fix the result without arousing too much suspicion.

  80. David Hannah

    It’s encouraging that people actually went out to march… To listen to the false prophet on stage.

    These people would vote for a monkey if you put an SNP rosette on their tops. It’s blind party loyalty.

    And that’s why they are not part of the Independence industry and why we’ll be waiting, well past 2026 to deliver Independence.

    They won’t come up with a strategy at the October conference. They simply won’t do it.

  81. Johnlm

    “There’s a welter of contradictory claims, statistics and facts online. I don’t have the time to wade through them.”
    John Main @10.54am 17 August 2023
    (SNP hating BTL poster 24/7)

    Motes and beams

  82. David Hannah

    The Independence industry. She’s part of the industry now.

    That guy Allister Heather, him and his friends look like over priveledged louts on the train to Dundee or Inverness. I wonder if he went to a private school, his pal Tom Cruise is wearing a gold rolex.

    None of them are young. Very late 20s early 30s.

  83. Republicofscotland

    “I was convinced that ‘Yes’ would win the referendum. If you doubt the supposed result, you are certainly not alone.”

    We are up against one of the most nefarious countries (England) in the world when it comes to vote rigging. Multiple English governments have interfered in elections in the likes of Kenya and other nations to keep their “men” in office or power.

    I’d imagine it would’ve been pretty easy for Westminster to rig the 2014 indyref, with many willing helpers in Scotland, and at the time our inexperience on such matters would’ve shown quite clearly.

    It shouldn’t unnoticed that Peter Murrell the disgraced Chief Executive f the SNP called in GCHQ to help him with the SNP leadership contest.

    The English government, no matter if its a Labour or Tory one, cannot afford to see Scotland become independent, so every force that they can bring down to bear on suppressing independence such as lying, propagandising and spying on the people of Scotland to keep them in the union will be used.

    “During ‘the troubles’ in the north of Ireland, the British State had infiltrated the IRA to such an extent that one its agents was a man called Freddie Scapiticci, codenamed ‘Steaknife’. Scapiticci was the IRA’s Head of Internal Security, and he was an MI5 agent.

    In the 1970s, when British governments feared powerful trade unions, particularly the National Union of Mineworkers, a Special Branch agent was a man called Joe Gormley: he was the National President of the Mineworkers Union. You can’t get higher than National President, and he was a Special Branch asset.

    In the bitter, year-long Miners’ Strike of 1984-85, papers prepared for then Tory Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher showed MI5 were receiving reports from one of their agents called Roger Windsor. Windsor was the Chief Executive of the NUM.”

    Now just imagine how deeply the SNP have be infiltrated, the likes of MI5 used to be used to counter espionage, now its is mainly used in domestic sureveillance of politicians, prominent and outspoken people, and those who wish to break up the union.

    Every vote on dissolving the union will be tampered with, that’s why UDI is the way forward.

    The International Court of Justice, in a 2010 advisory opinion, declared that unilateral declarations of independence were not illegal under international law.

  84. George Ferguson

    @David Hannah 7:12pm
    You nailed it. But would you send them to the butchers for a pound of mince when they would come back from the bakers with a half a loaf of bread? Tik Tok, Instagram etc. The SNP have invested heavily in social media intervention. They don’t need members or branches. A functioning NEC or networks with businesses. Tin eared. I will never ask anybody for money on support of Independence. Books. Paywalls, appearance money. I usually donate it. The SNP/Green coalition have rubbished their aged forefathers in favour of Peroni drinking young people. Somebody buy a Sunday Times (4 pound) and hand it to Humza. Their is a place for young people in the Independence movement. Just not leading it.

  85. crazycat

    @ Michael Laing at 5.42

    Then there were the multiple reports of blank-backed ballot papers which were never investigated

    Each counting area/local authority is responsible for printing its own ballot papers; sometimes they may co-operate for economy of scale, especially when there is no variation in the question on the front.

    There is a requirement for an “identifying mark” on each paper (eg if there is impersonation, the paper put in the box by the fraud has to be retrievable, and replaceable by a special paper – different colour, maybe – issued to the person who arrives to find that he/she “has already voted”). Having to show ID, unfair though it is, avoids that problem now.

    That mark does not have to be a bar-code on the back; it can be a number on the front. The marked register links the number, whatever form it takes, with the voter’s number on the roll (so it’s not actually a secret ballot and I’ve known people who refused to vote for that reason).

    Did everyone know that and scrupulously check the paper for a mark? Or, when questions were raised, did they say “that’s right, there wasn’t a bar code on the back of mine, I’d have seen it”?

  86. James Che


    Why do we need a referendum?

    We ( Scotland and its parliament ) have officially not been in the treaty of union since we were Extinguished in 1707, by the terms and agreement as soon as it was ratified.

    Why the disbelieve in what Westminster parliament site has put in writing for the world to read,

  87. John Main

    johnlm 7:11

    I have you categorised as harmless so your stalking is far more amusing than concerning.

    Interested in a signed portrait? Ask Rev Stu to pass on your details -I’ll be in touch.

  88. Republicofscotland

    “Why do we need a referendum?”

    James Che.

    I totally agree, its not illegal in any sense to declare UDI, we are being forcefully held in this prison of a union, via a foreign country’s (England’s) House Jocks.

  89. Ian McCubbin

    Looks from photos and subsequent data analysis that SNP take more hits for lying their socks off.
    Yesterday’s Independence party for sure.

  90. John Main

    @RoS 7:22

    New ideas are obviously needed, and UDI seems a good one.

    So who’s going to issue the UDI? Is that on the Alba manifesto? How many MPs/MSPs will they need to show they have both democratic backing and a majority of Scots in favour? Of course, perhaps you don’t agree a majority of Scots is needed!

    Most important of all, if you truly believe the MI5 trope, how will Alba avoid the same fate and in fact, are you certain Alba has not already been infiltrated?

    Awkward questions, I agree, but they won’t go away just because you dodge them.

  91. George Ferguson

    @John Main 8:32pm
    MI5 are too busy laughing at the state of Scottish politics to expend any resources. We are doing a grand job ourselves. Anybody want to challenge the SNP marketing strategy for the next GE. Absolutely unbelievable,
    when your stock on believable competence is so low. Don’t go saying, “Believe in Scotland”. My bet on 30 plus Labour MPs
    is looking good. Democratic solutions please.

  92. David Hannah

    Don’t attack the people that marched. They deserve every bit of respect. It’s the message they are listening to from the leaders on stage.

    Believe in Scotland is the “independence industry” thanks to Kelly Given for giving us that line.

    I think that come October when the SNP don’t deliver a coherent strategy for Independence. The Wings strategy. Then it’s over for Humza.

    He’s not being invited to that English reptiles party at Balmoral with 2 snacks. Which is a good sign that the establishment dislike him every bit as much as I do.

  93. David Hannah

    Believe in Scotland doesn’t fill in its tax forms. There’s something dodgy going on with that company I’m sure I read somewhere.

  94. Northcode


    I don’t find your quote says much about anything. There’s no analysis there, just assertions.

    Quotes seldom have space for analysis – they’re easy to isolate from their original context and to use in an attempt to influence opinion contrary to the original author’s intended meaning; a rhetorical trick called Fallacy of Dictione – actually, one of the six sub-divisions of the Dictione group of fallacies called ‘Fallacy of Accent’.

    You may well be right about Amin and his world view, I don’t know much about the man apart from what he’s written. But what you say about him could be said of any human – we are, all of us, vulnerable to bias and error.

    Amin’s book, The Implosion of Capitalism, speaks of the EU within the context of a broader argument he makes on the nature of global capitalism; an argument I find quite convincing, and by extension, his views on the possible future of the European Union.

    I found Amin’s view relevant to, and supportive of, Robert Hughes assertion that the EU has evolved, and is still evolving, into something nasty, and becoming nastier; something other than what was originally intended to benefit the peoples of Europe.

    It’s possible the EU might collapse sooner than you imagine, or at least be considerably diminished in power.

    I’m inclined, for the moment, to take Amin’s view, and Robert’s, too, on the direction the EU is currently taking.

  95. DaveL

    I reckon there’s more wee Stu Campbell’s in jk popping’s heid than there have been at all the snpees rallies marches and meetings throughout this long ‘Summer of Independence’…what’s that? There’s only been one march and it happened the other day, three or four hours in autumn? Yes.

    WOW! Well done snpee. Great effort, you’re all real winners! Take a bow.

    Imagine being the number one activist like Humza eh, how great would that be, you can ponce about glowing whilst folk throw themselves at your feet and declare your brilliance. Excellent stuff, what an ego boost and…and think of the cash, ‘kin marvellous.

    They maybe could’ve attracted more folk if they’d thrown down a union rag at the start and let people walk over it building up spirit and cleansing the sole. Bin or burn after use, apparently that’s not illegal if it’s your flag and disposed of safely. They should’ve deployed queen nic carrying a carrot on a string on a stick too. Did anyone spot the ‘clap now’ signs during the speeches? Real winners one and all.

    I’m off, I’ve said enough, but yeah…the rev Stu’s in Kelly’s head are giving him a good kicking. When the rev leads the Indy negotiations poor James’ll be bouncing around in a padded box.

    Ah, nearly forgot, (how could I?) just to keep the Main sane, Everything written above is wrong, detrimental to Scotland’s independence and probably obscures further any hopes about seeing money plus whatever else you find obnoxious is wrong too…it might even encourage colonisers who knows? There, I’ve said it for you.

  96. Ian Maclaren

    I am waiting, with bated breath, for Murray Foote’s numbers on those marching on the 2nd.

  97. John Main

    George Ferguson 8:54

    The UDI option works for me as long as it is the manifesto commitment of a party that subsequently goes on to win a democratic majority. HR or WM or both.

    Thus, any Indy party can choose to commit to it, Alba, Greens, heck, even the SNP could go down that route.

    Of course, having made that commitment, and got us Scots to vote them into power, they would then have to go ahead and deliver – and that’s the hard bit.

    WM would play hardball, and our leaders would have to have all their plans made and ready for implementation.

    It’s not impossible, but it is certainly difficult, which is maybes why none of our current incompetent elite have yet decided they can make it work. But we need a new elite in Scotland anyway, so maybes our next lot will be a bit smarter.

  98. KT Lorimer

    Ending the union is easy – why then does the SNP not do so?
    Simple – no more gravy bus.

  99. ben madigan

    @Alf Baird who said about the Rutherglen election:

    “ISP’s Colette Walker is standing on a pro-independence and abstentionist ticket, i.e. she would refuse to take a seat or oath in Westminster if elected. So there is one genuine pro-independence candidate to vote for”.

    The £2,000 extended target has now been reached

    Well done Wingers and everyone else who contributed to the crowdfunder.–hamilton-west-by-election

    Next job of work to be done: Get out canvassing, door knocking,leafletting, texting everybody in the constituency, registering voters, organising transport on the day etc, Remember everyone has a part to play, no matter how small!
    What’s yours?

    Throw a stone into the stagnant waters of Scottish politics. Do your utmost to get abstentionist Colette Walker ISP elected

  100. A Scot Abroad

    What excellent news.

    A paltry turnout, and a divided Indy movement arguing between themselves. And, of course, the politically unengaged aren’t following many of the Indy shenanigans, and the SNP vote won’t drop below 50% of what it was. Which means that no Indy party is going to do well, not alone or severally.

    It’s been a good year to date for unionists. Wouldn’t have thought that it would kick off with no less than three SNP figures including the FM being arrested (arrested!) on dodgy finance charges, which are delightfully dragging on and on, but perhaps God’s making his wishes known by making the screw turn slowly.

  101. Robert Louis

    March organisers exaggerate numbers attending, shock, horror. As old as time itself. Numbers are important, but well, it kind of is to be expected anyway.

    The real point is that the group (SNP is the puppet master here) organising the march on Saturday clearly wanted to define who should and who should not be present. THAT is no way to heal divisions. THAT is no way to build a ‘grassroots’ movement.

    Anybody who wanted independence, was welcome in 2012-2014, it was a real mix, but with one goal, independence. NOW, under the nuSNP, folk must be ‘woke’, ‘trans friendly’ and definitely, definitely NOT old, or from the ALBA party if they want independence. It is nonsense.

    So we need to ask, just what is the SNP and the likes of comfy slippers Wishart trying to achieve?? To any rational eyes, it looks like they WANT division, they WANT to keep the indy movement split. Isn’t that what their handlers in London hope they will do??

    THIS, Humza, is why no right thinking indy supporter trusts you or your party. A bigger and better person would right now be talking to ALBA, SIP, and, yes, AUOB. ALL people would be welcome, with none of this blatant ageist shit

    I like others who want independence FOR ALL will be attending the next AUOB march. And voting ALBA.

  102. Ian Brotherhood

    Received this yesterday from a friend. Have removed name on request.

    “I decided not to respond to your post on Wings at 10.18 because I don’t want to cause trouble, but ra polis do debrief the officer(s) responsible and produce a figure for each march.

    Last time you and I met, at Glasgow Green in May, we discussed what would be a non-disappointing number; I’ve had an attack of Sturgeonitis since and can’t remember what we concluded. I’d bought a digital clicker. I knew I couldn’t march, wanted to hear the speeches, and thought I could train myself to make a rough estimate of crowds, which I know I’m not good at. It won’t have been precise, but I counted approx. 3200 people walking past me into Glasgow Green. Some people will have peeled off to the pub, but I don’t believe 15k+ did; I could see them in the Saltmarket and there was very little wastage at that point.

    Later when I got home I discovered that an “official” estimate of 20k, or even more, was being circulated, and I just couldn’t accept that. I found the speeded-up video from Charing Cross, which had also been produced in previous years, and counted them too. It’s not difficult; despite the speed, there are plenty of reference points in the form of big banners right across the street, and the man with the flagpole that supports about 10 flags. I counted approx. 3k, which was consistent with my on-the-ground estimate. A few minutes later, someone re-tweeted the very same video, with a mocking comment “definitely only 3 thousand people!” followed by a line of laughing emojis. This told me that a) she hadn’t counted them, and b) someone else, who had, proposed the figure of 3k, otherwise why would she choose that?

    I understand that organizers want to play up the numbers, opponents to play them down, and the police to quote something similar to the expected figure on which they based their staffing, to avoid being accused of risking public safety/being heavy-handed (it’s easier to send a few officers home than to magic them out of thin air, of course).

    I then discovered Murdo Fraser referring to a “police estimate of 5k” without saying where he got it (he was presumably glued to jug ears’ coronation), Manky Jaikit claiming 3726 (or some other impossibly precise figure), someone foolishly accusing MF of lying, and, finally, a tweet from AUOB with the 20k figure in it. This was explicitly described as a police estimate, so I submitted my first ever FoI request. They took their time, but the answer was that the debriefing included a figure of 3-6k. Quite a wide range, but consistent with everyone except AUOB.

    Not being able to go to Stirling, I did the same thing there; people on Wings and elsewhere said 6k, police said 1500 (no range; easier to count fewer, perhaps). From that I conclude that unless the number is so small (Kyleakin, maybe Ayr, neither of which I got to) that individuals can just about be counted, organizers’ estimates should be divided by at least 4. This depresses me, since it’s so easy to uncover the official estimate, which is only an estimate, but from people with experience, and getting it so wrong undermines our credibility.

    The real point of all that waffle is to say that BiS/SNP/etc are no better at estimates than AUOB, so if we divide their figure by 4 or 5, perhaps, we get a much more realistic 5-6k. ie, same as Glasgow, in much better weather and with no competing “attractions”. I did try to watch the livestream but it chopped about so much I couldn’t form an estimate. I’d also re-assured PScot that I wouldn’t be asking about every AUOB march, in case they got fed up and told me it cost too much, but you could…
    Freedom of Information – Police Scotland

    The bit I watched certainly had lots of saltires rather than rainbows, and numerous SNP branch banners, which shows where it had appealed.”

  103. James Che


    Apologies for late reply,

    It is not the them that is forcible holding us,

    It is us, with colonised minds that refuse to leave our prison even when the gates are wide open,
    We stand there, like rats that have been lab trained.

    We ( Scotland) do not accept the reality of our own ears and sight that there is no invisable force field,
    , We are not, or ever have been past the ratification barrier to the next stage of a parliamentary union treaty with Englands Westminster Parliament, because it extinguished us from ( IT) at that point since 1707,

    It is just too unbelieveble for some people, we have been Colonised through lack of knowledge and understanding of what a treaty is,

    A treaty–contract needs to have at least two active participants or more,
    The in-complete treaty of union has only one active participant after 1707 since the treaty ratification extinguished Scotlands half from joining immediately before/ prior to the creation of Great British parliament at Westminster,

    The 1707 treaty of union terms was a promise of a contractual agreement but As soon as it was ratified it canceled the promise,
    that did not reach its legal status or potential as two parliamentary union even politically.

    The result of that is Scotland never entered into a parliamentary union with England nor a union promise of one kingdom under one Crown monarch in one parliament.
    Everything towards the future promise, the terms, the agreement, was extinguished with the Scottish parliament in 1707, by ratifying it.

    They have admitted it world wide,

  104. Alf Baird

    ben madigan @ 12:54 am

    “Throw a stone into the stagnant waters of Scottish politics. Do your utmost to get abstentionist Colette Walker ISP elected”

    Yes ben, people wanting independence only have the one choice in Rutherglen/Hamilton. The SNP vote is collapsing, but staying at home and not voting at all will only be a shoe-in for British Labour and strengthen the anti-independence camp. Better to send our adversaries the message that the colonial game is coming to an end through voting ISP/Colette.


    The Catalans managed hundreds of thousands in demonstrations.
    Now what?
    Stuck in the same leadership deficit as the SNP.
    Two headless chickens?

  106. James Che

    I Stopped worrying about the Snp, the Wee pretendy parliament sent to complete Colonisation of Scotland,
    I stopped worrying about who was throwing carrots out for us to pick up.
    I stopped worrying about referendums and possible elections that do not favour Scotland.
    I stopped worry about politicians fake speeches.

    When I found historical records, that covered Treaties.

    What I worry about is.
    How long? will it take Scotland to cotton on to recorded records that Scotlands 1707 parliament is not in the treaty of parliamentary union with Englands parliament since the ratifications in 1707 under domestic law of both parliaments.

    Who needs to beg for referendums.
    Or 50% over majority vote
    Who gets to vote.
    Who needs udi,
    Who would automatically be able give clear evidence we ( Scotland ) had been Colonised without a being in a parliamentary union.
    Who needs to worry about unionist parties masqurading as independence parties.
    Who would need to worry about imported ideologies and new laws when we could make our own again.
    Who would worry about the Snp, ULez,
    The big financial crashes that the bank of England controls.
    Who would worry about free speech restrictions through the hate crime bill. Or gender dysphoria,
    These thing would automatically be reset.

    Because when you do realise that the , your free,

  107. James Che

    Alf Baird.

    People wanting independence in Rutherglen/Hamilton,

    Now there is a Colonised mind trained well in thought patterns, not at all like your usual self Alf. No offence meant,

  108. Steve Kendrick

    I was there to spectate and at the time I reckoned about 3000. What was also noteworthy was a distinct lack of people uner forty on the march.

  109. John Main

    The hated DM has a so-called “expert” attributing the latest Loch Ness suspect sighting to Sturgeon. No word on Peter though.

    I reckon if they are in there, they’ll come out when the cold weather starts.

    In other news from the hated DM, Yousaf supposedly about to unveil his 4-day working week strategy. I can’t see anybody at either WM or HR going for it. 4 days is far too much of an increase on their current workloads.

    TBQH, I’m with them on that – 3 days a week is more than enough. Honestly, Yousaf eh? Fits he like? Swanning aboot like he’s the authentic, legal, all-above-board FM of Scotland!

  110. Alf Baird

    TURABDIN @ 8:16 am

    “Stuck in the same leadership deficit as the SNP.
    Two headless chickens?”

    Until national party leaders undertake ‘a reasoned study of colonial society’, the peoples ‘understanding remains rudimentary’ (Fanon).

  111. Viscount Ennui

    Still reeling from the visceral honesty of Stu’s previous contribution which captures well the feelings I have had for some time.
    As a victim of Swinney’s corruption, and knowing the extent to which serious misfeasance now pervades every facet of public life, I cannot consider voting YES until a credible leadership emerges from either the dying embers of the SNP, or a nascent ALBA.
    Those opinion poll readings may be encouraging in that the indy movement is now detached from the vehicle which once gave it expression and drive, but I fear that the figures are much softer than they currently appear and that we are in for a very tough time.
    Good governance for a period of time would provide the foundation required to construct a convincing case for independence but that is not going to happen with the current political dilettantes that occupy the front seats in government.
    I hope that the SNP get a good hiding at Rutherglen and that the message goes out to the troughers that their time is up.
    No tears will be shed by the faithful.

  112. Shug

    oh dear oh dear

    I see today the National is maxing on Humza boosting the economy. Lots of talk about “wellbeing”. There is nobody in the business community listening to a load of pish about wellbeing. There is no such thing it is a made up worthless sound bite.

    In all economies at all times there are people doing well and others less so. There is no way everyone can be doing well. There will always be someone blaming the government so get over it.

    The moment I hear “Wellbeing” economy” I know I am being sold a pup by a numpty

    I also see somone wants flower of Scotland as an anthem. I am sorry but when faced with voting for indy the Scots went home to think again!. A more inappropriate dirge of a song is hard to imagine.


    Totally agree. Politics is essentially about power either yours or theirs. Theirs, when it «colonizes» the mind, the discourse, the culture requires a concentrated «will» to reorientate the politics from what «they» consider normative ie in their interest to what you need.
    That «need» may well crack the political order. That is what many fear, and that fear serves to keep the status quo.
    Ultimately, it is a matter of leadership and that, in historical terms, depends on chance;
    right moment, right leadership and in that the people have a dynamic role for that leadership will inevitably emerge from among them.
    British politics, alas, provides bread and circuses as a staple which too many devour indiscriminately.

  114. James Che

    Billy Carlin.

    It was said on wings not so long ago, That the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth, is about 18 months,

    But the difference between those that mocked the conspiracy theory and those that knew, is the first one goes quite on the subject for the next 18 months until they pretend that was what they were saying all along,

  115. sarah

    @ Viscount Ennui: “..I cannot consider voting Yes until a credible leadership emerges…”

    I beg to differ. Any reason for postponing reclaiming Scotland’s position as an equal nation with the other signatory nation is just another Sturgeon-like put-off.

    I don’t think any of us are in “danger” of the SNP being in charge of the process of restoring Scotland’s rightful status. The leadership/controlling group haven’t the brains, the principles, the guts, or in some cases, the desire.

    What we can do is support those entities which are purely dedicated to reclaiming Scotland’s position. Those people are largely the grassroots activists some of whom have formed new groups e.g. Scottish Sovereignty Research Group, and maintained others e.g. the Rev’s good self. All the people looking at currency, maritime, fiscal, defence policy, and all those plugging away week in, week out e.g. Pensioners for Independence to bring more people on board.

    The people in the preceding paragraph will be the ones contributing with their advice, formally or informally, to the body that has asserted Scotland’s status. To reactivate Scotland’s pre-1707 Constitution i.e. People Power, there will need to be a Congress. This is the Salvo route – so if you haven’t already signed up to then do so now – and then recruit others.

    We have no time to lose. Our society is being gutted before our eyes. The solution is so obvious and is relatively simple but the MSPs and MPs are letting it all happen, and in the SNP and Green cases, contributing to the degradation.

  116. Derek Rogers

    There’s a fundamental change simmering under the Scottish constitutional debate, and it will push us through when we claim UDI.

    The fundamental change is whether elected politicians are representatives or delegates. If they’re representatives, they themselves decide what’s in the electors’ best interests, and they can even change parties (‘cross the floor’). But if they’re delegates, they do as they’re told, and can be recalled if they don’t.
    — under FPTP, they’re representatives
    — the Holyrood list-vote elects delegates (the buggers aren’t even named when you vote for them!)
    — the Declaration of Arbroath, saying that the monarch’s job is to implement the instructions of the people, means they’re delegates.

    For UDI to succeed, the declaration has to be made by a body which unequivocally reflects the will of the people. We can do this by electing to that UDI-declaring body a set of politicians whom:
    —- we name individually (so they’re not just list-party string-alongs), and
    —- we specifically categorise as delegates, not representatives.

    Job done.

  117. Johnlm

    For those on here who, like Stewart MacDonald, want to wait till 2050,
    Here is a diagram of where your passivity is taking you.

  118. Shug

    I see Flynn is reshuffling the deck chairs again and no Cherry.

    when are they going to learn they have to promote in ability not on bidability

    I can’t wait to read what tosser is getting the mic next

  119. sarah

    @ Derek Rogers at 11.10: ” the declaration has to be made by a body…specifically categorised as delegates..”.

    Well said – clear and easily understood. This puts the Sovereignty of the Scottish People back where it belongs.

  120. sarah

    @ Shug re Flynn re-shuffle.

    I can just about understand replacing people who won’t be standing at the next General Election e.g. Philippa Whitford but to see Martin Docherty-Hughes “elevated” and troughers like Alyn Smith left in place is depressing. Where’s the fire and passion for withdrawing from this cursed Union? Not on the Flynn front bench, for sure.

  121. Stoker

    Michael Laing says on 3 September 2023 at 5:42 pm: “And then there’s the patently obvious fact that the ‘No’ campaign was nothing but an astroturf campaign, while ‘Yes’ meetings and marches were attracting thousands of people all over Scotland.”

    Remember too how ‘Rev Stu’ organised a sort of ‘No Watch’. For Wingers to monitor train stations etc where ‘No’ was supposed to be canvassing etc. And the result? Nothing but tumbleweed. Then there was Jim Murphy and his Irn Bru crate tour of Scotland. LOL! THAT was about the extent of ‘No’ on the streets. And a few dodgy photo-ops exposed here on WOS.

  122. Stoker

    James says on 3 September 2023 at 11:41 am: AUOB Saturday 7th October, 12:30 from Holyrood Park. Bring a camera, let’s show them what 25,000+ *really* looks like?”

    It’s a great opportunity to press upon the SNP troughers that *they* are not the indy movement. A chance to throw their attempts to dominate us right back in their control-freakery faces. The true grassroots is the true movement, not a bunch of troughing Sturgeonites.

  123. akenaton

    I think the easiest method of achieving Independence once we get rid of the SNP and their anti biology rhetoric, would be to raise the ceiling or scrap Inheritance tax.
    Committed Nata would still vote Yes and most of the new Scottish residents would jump at it.
    It would of course have to be part of a balanced economic plan which was workable.

  124. What Rot

    Oooft, you’re good. Forensic Stu!

  125. Red

    Derek says The fundamental change is whether elected politicians are representatives or delegates. If they’re representatives, they themselves decide what’s in the electors’ best interests, and they can even change parties (‘cross the floor’). But if they’re delegates, they do as they’re told, and can be recalled if they don’t.

    Derek, that’s our problem. They are neither.

    Politicians don’t represent us or obey us. Their job is to manage us, which is why they spend so much time trying to lower your expectations or get you distracted by culture war squirrels.

    As voters, we aren’t the customers. We’re the product. Their customers are powerful people such as the CBI, the banks, the EU, the US government, and the WEF. That’s why our governments reliably never fail to let the general public down. It’s not (mere) incompetence, they simply do not work for us at all.

    Why did you think virtually every Western country is dragging its population in the same direction, even when it’s very unpopular? This would be impossible if we lived in functioning democracies.

  126. Colin Alexander

    Colette Walker / the Independence for Scotland Party (ISP), have the right idea.

    Our politicians should only swear (or affirm) allegiance to Scotland’s sovereign people.

    Pro-independence WM MPs and Holyrood MSPs swearing feudal servitude to KCIII, head of the UK state (who is not King of Scots), is absolutely unacceptable.

    When Alex Salmond swore fealty to KCIII he should have resigned / been replaced as head of the Alba Party.

  127. Aye Right

    See Iona Fyfe in photays there with Kelly Given. Fyfe is the halfwit who went to Chicago recently for a tour, then said she hadn’t counted on costs for hiring a car or hotel rooms, and was blagging cash off her fans for everyyhing. A real creep. Going on tour with no transport or accommodation booked – it’s a new grift, you have to admit. Figures she and a lobotomy case like Kelly ‘Covid Lazarus’ Given would be hanging out together. The SNP has some really shady shite at its forefront these days.

  128. Northcode

    Alf Baird, on a previous thread, said:

    “It demonstrates the weakness of the dominant but now found to be compromised and perhaps ‘fatally wounded’ national party…”

    Which reminded me of this statement from Hannah Arendt:

    …power can spring up as if from nowhere when people begin to “act in concert,” and can ebb away unexpectedly from apparently powerful regimes.

    from ‘The Human Condition’ by Hannah Arendt.
    The University of Chicago Press (1958)

    The SNP is a zombie, a reanimated corpse that has been turned into a thing capable of movement but not of rational thought. It feeds on the hope of Scots desperate for independence and vomits up lies and empty promises in return.

    It still walks and talks, or rather mumbles incoherently, as it lurches from one idiotic, self-harming crisis to the next in its desperate search for some brains to chew on. Alas for the SNP, there are few brains to be found in the intellectually barren wasteland of its remaining, worshipful adherents.

    Those with any ‘brains’ at all have long since escaped the clutches of the SNP’s cold, dead hands.

    Anyone whose ever seen ‘The Walking Dead’ knows exactly what should be done with the SNP (metaphorically, of course).

    Not only to put the SNP out of its mindless, miserable agony, but also to spare Scotland the embarrassment of watching it stumble about slavering gibberish and spouting hollow hokum.

    When the SNP is finally laid to rest in the grave it dug for itself, then one more barrier to Scottish independence will have been removed at the same time.

  129. sarah

    @ Red at 2.00 on the lack of democracy currently.

    That is the point that Derek Rogers, and others, are making. We know we haven’t got democracy at the moment. We also know that the Sovereignty of the People of Scotland IS fully democratic. That is why WE want our Sovereignty recognised and re-established, and the politicians in Holyrood and Westminster don’t.

    This month’s iScot has an article by Sara Salyers about the forms of democracy – our current system is the least democratic in that it enables an elite group to control parliament and government. Scotland’s pre-1707 constitution, and Switzerland’s very similar current one, are the most democratic systems.

  130. Garavelli Princip

    The SNP’s demise began when it became the governing party. Once that happened three further things occurred:

    1. Within its own ranks the power hungry and the unscrupulous plotted their way up the ranks (many of them Brit sleepers)

    2. Even those originally motivated by independence and with the best of intentions, were corrupted by ‘power’ – however circumscribed by our colonial status – and those of a devolutionist bent were confirmed in their self-serving aim to serve Westminster (many of them Brit sleepers)

    3. The party attracted the worst kind of chancers, freeloaders, crazies and others whose agenda was anything but independence (many of them Brit sleepers -others just the mad and perverts)

    We had one chance with the SNP in power – that was 2014. When that didn’t happen (it nearly did, and would have done with a Scots-only franchise) the party was in the worst possible hands. What has followed was inevitable.

    Scottish independence, in British terms is a revolutionary aim – requiring an insurgent mind-set.

    Bourgeoise parliamentary systems are designed to kill such movements. The Brit parliament and its bastard Scottish offspring at Holyrood are the epitome of bourgeoise parliamentary systems.

    There is now no parliamentary route to Scottish independence, just as there was no Redmondite route to Irish independence, and no parliamentary road to socialism (just look at the pretend Labour Party under Tory Starmer). All radical impulse is subverted and killed.

    If Scotland really wants independence, it will have to get it by other means (and I do not mean violence).

  131. Johnlm

    Deal only with truths.
    Non violent civil resistance.
    We win.

  132. Republicofscotland

    “SOME crimes reported to police in Scotland will not be investigated under a new pilot.”

    So Police Scotland will in this “pilot scheme” pick and choose which crimes to investigate, one can be pretty sure which crimes the Justice secretary and COPFS see as priorities.

  133. Republicofscotland

    The SNPs Westminster leader Stephen Flynn has announced a shake up of his bunch of lying deceitful grifters who are at Westminster to make a good career out of it.

    Its as if Flynn thinks by moving the SNPs MPs from one gravy train job to another, will somehow make the b*stards appear more presentable to us, it doesn’t.

    Let remove these useless grifting careerists at the next GE, they’ve done absolutely f*ck all towards the indy cause.


    Violence in freedom struggles is inevitable. Historically, the British have used it even on passive resistance. This may explain why freedom struggles inevitably turn violent.
    There is just so much «cheek turning» possible without looking a punch ball.

  135. Billy Carlin

    Sarah 3:16 pm

    Democracy as I have said on here before is an illusion and always has been. The Scottish people and people of all other countries have NEVER been sovereign all owned and controlled just like Switzerland by the VATICAN under their Cestui Que Vie Trust Bonded SLAVE System. This is why the Swiss Guard protects the Pope and Vatican and why the SCAM Bank of International Settlements that owns and controls all of the SCAM Central Banks and run by the Rothschild’s on behalf of the Vatican is based in Switzerland and also why the World Economic Forum is based there as well and is DELIBERATELY destroying the worlds economies via the Scamdemic, Global Warming SCAM and Cost of Living SCAM etc to bring in the VATICAN NWO One World Communist Social Credit Government agenda as per their 1452 Doctrine of Discovery etc.

    The Swiss people are unaware of all of this and think that they live in a democracy especially because they can vote in referendums to decide on matters that might affect them but they vote on the “information” fed to them like the voters in all other countries do related to them by puppet political parties and mainstream media.

    Elites have always controlled the people on behalf of these MAFIAS even before parliaments were set up to give the ILLUSION OF DEMOCRACY. The Declaration of Arbroath, Magna Carta were NEVER about the ordinary people who were SERFS to the Barons/King etc back then and who never even had a vote – these were GRIEVANCE documents by the Barons sent to the VATICAN for the Popes blessing as they owned and controlled Scotland and England and were taking over the rest of the world they did not control via their puppet Kings/Queens. Same with the US Declaration of Independence which was written by Freemasons and lawyers of the British Bar Association both owned and controlled by the VATICAN via their City of London Private Corporation – most of the people back then in the US NEVER had the vote either.

    Constitutions, Treaties, Declarations, Rights etc have absolutely NOTHING to do with anyone but the people who actually SIGNED them. Anyone trying to tell anyone else that any of these relates to anyone else or tries to force them on anyone else is running a SLAVE system. Of course they have got the dumb masses into believing that they do and that their corrupt LEGAL and GOVERNMENT and BANKING etc system relates to them as well all based on FRAUD and DECEPTION etc and all breaking CONTRACT and TRUST Law big style and they get away with this because of the laziness of the masses to actually want to think for themselves – partly through the indoctrination of the education system and also because most people out-sheep the sheep and are gutless to stand up for themselves.

    Until the people waken up to all of this they will NEVER be free never mind independent. The government/political parties have NO power or authority to tell any man or woman what to do or what Private Corporation Country/Government etc they should be part of especially since they were all Foreclosed (SHUT DOWN) in 2012 and all FAKE debt was written off back then as well. This FACT plus everything that is going on just now should tell you what the governments/political parties think of the people and how they are NOT working for our benefit.

    As I have said before the way to get real freedom and independence is to tell the people all of this and tell them we are going to set up a REAL government that will create its own debt and interest and inflation free money with NO taxes and NO career politicians with two terms at most and new blood in with Peoples Grand Juries and Peoples Juries to investigate and keep the politicians, judges, police etc etc in check and doing their jobs honestly on behalf of the people and dealing with them if they do not.

  136. Garavelli Princip


    I said I was not proposing violence; I did not say I oppose self-defence.

    I am not a pacifist – but I am only too well aware of the disparity of violent means as between a state that has shown itself ruthless and violent over many centuries, and the general population – which as we know, the Bourgeoise state itself regards as the real enemy!

    There is more than one way to skin a rat!


    So it’s the Jews, Jesuits, Masons etc…again.
    The trust you refer to was a phenomenon of Anglo-Norman law with no connexion to Rome. Certainly nothing to do with Scotland or the contemporary Vatican for that matter.
    YouTube is full of such hot headed, paranoid «neo nazi». nonsense.

  138. twathater

    The MOST frustrating thing is that if ANY of our so called politicians including Alex Salmond were dedicated to independence no matter how it is achieved they should be advocating and pushing the SALVO COR route

    By pushing the SALVO COR they could be EXPOSING the deliberate theft and corruption of wm in relation to OUR resources , they could be EXPOSING the riches that those resources could be earning for SCOTS and EXPOSE how those riches have been stolen and used for the betterment of London and the south of engerland

    Instead they focus on driving the same old unionist road where we HAVE to comply with every unionist rule and made up law that they continually change to thwart our determination

    The unionists and fake indy supporters on here continually denegrate and demean the SALVO route even some within the determined indy blogging support , they INSIST that independence can only come about through the POLITICAL route , can anyone tell me how that is going on

    John Moan and his disciples DEMAND to see the money but I have never heard them put the same DEMAND to wm , better still they know wm will tell them where to go, if we are so much better staying with ruk Prove It, PRODUCE the real figures NOT GERS

    WHY has NO political party including A Salmond EXPOSED the lies of GERS, WHERE is the sturgeon PROMISED rebuttal evidence or her promised Scots revenue streams , maybe Moan and his disciples are right IF an indy party showed them the fucking money maybe independence would be a sure thing or a shoe in

    For 300+ years politicians have lied and betrayed Scotland and Scots how is 2023 or 4 or 5 going to be any different, the reality is it won’t, they have done NOTHING to educate people to the riches and resources being stolen daily from Scots whilst our people suffer hunger , homelessness , and cold, THEY don’t suffer with their bloated salaries and expansive expenses so there is NO URGENCY for change

    The ONLY way things will change is through PEOPLE POWER where we TAKE BACK CONTROL and DEMAND they LISTEN, THAT is SALVO and

  139. Chas

    If you think things are bad just now and they are, imagine being Billy Carlin. Shudders at the thought.
    Are you sure it’s not all about colonialism Billy and stuff that happened 300 years ago?

  140. Chas

    Gaun yersel twathate. We are all right behind you. You first.

  141. JockMcT

    I agree with twathater abov. We all know why sturgeon never challenged gers, but where are the true giants who will?
    We need someone to stand up and outline what our own currency and a robust plan to forge our export markets via our own ports would do, including our exports to England. They won’t simply disappear, and they need the trade as much as we do. Are we so colonised that no one will stand up and lay this all out. Maybe needs rid of all of the current politicians to make this happen, all too comfortable. Holyrood is truly an abomination of a pretendy wee toon cooncil. We must demand better.

  142. James Jones

    So can Mapchecker be used to report the attendance at the Glasgow ‘All Under One Banner‘ march in May?

  143. PhilM

    Only saw the Fall once (at the Venue, I think it was) back in 1985 after they released This Nation’s Saving Grace. I reckon though if you take Billy Carlin’s capitalised words from his last certifiable ravings, string them together and pep up your best Mark E. Smith impression, you might have a cracking new Fall toon titled…

    What Billy Carlin Knew…

    (You’re all sacked-uh…)

  144. Michael Laing

    @ Phil M at 6.38pm:

    Mental hospitalzzzah! Oh mental hospitalzzzah! They put electrodes in your brain-ahh! And you’re never the same-ahh!

    The Fall are definitely the band!

  145. John Main

    @Northcode says:4 September, 2023 at 2:40 pm

    slavering gibberish and spouting hollow hokum


    But enough about you.

  146. Robert Hughes

    @ PhilM

    Hahahaha etc . Well spotted . It really does scan like a Fall * song *

    I was never a fan of ol’ Mark E’s discordant Manc Rap/Shout pots n pans clangery n * oblique * lyrics – they always sounded to me like they’d taken one Captain Beefheart track n made a career out of extended versions of it .

    I liked him , though . Yr actual highly intelligent Northern Working Class tell-it-like-it-is ( n fuck-off if you don’t like it ) non-conformist guy , trying to create something worthwhile with the talents n drive he possessed .

  147. John Main

    @twathater says:4 September, 2023 at 6:20 pm

    John Moan and his disciples DEMAND to see the money

    Haha, bet that’s me. Twelve of them now, but I won’t be making the same mistakes as last time around. Pete will never be allowed near poultry, and nobody called Jude is getting a seat at the Top Table.

    maybe Moan and his disciples are right IF an indy party showed them the fucking money maybe independence would be a sure thing or a shoe in

    Got to be worth a try, eh TH? Everything else has been tried, so why not that?

    stolen daily from Scots whilst our people suffer hunger , homelessness , and cold

    See, TH, you’ve answered your own question. Fit ye like, eh?

    Convince the hungry, homeless and cold Scots they will be better off by voting for Indy and not Labour. Simples.

    Oh, and for around the hundredth, fecking time. I’m lucky enough to be neither hungry, homeless nor cold, and I have only one vote anyways. So don’t waste yet more time and effort trying to convince me. Convince the rest of us Scots. There’s millions of them, and they have millions of votes.


  148. John Main

    Those fond of the “Scotland As Colony” trope might benefit from checking out the life story of a man very much in the spotlight today – Rustem Umerov.

    I can’t imagine Mr Umerov having much patience or sympathy with our home-grown colonialism bleaters. But I guess that precisely for that reason, he will be persona non grata on here.

    Go figure.

    Maybes his true history of colonialist oppression and exile will still somehow or other be lacking in the necessary ideological purity that some Wingers deem necessary.

  149. Republicofscotland

    “Democracy as I have said on here before is an illusion and always has been.”

    “If voting could actually change anything, it would be illegal.”

    Noam Chomsky.

  150. Republicofscotland

    Another quote from Chomsky, that we should all see as pertinent to our indy cause.

    “If you go to one demonstration and then go home, that’s something, but the people in power can live with that. What they can’t live with is sustained pressure that keeps building, organisations that keep doing things, people that keep learning lessons from the last time and doing it better the next time.”

  151. Republicofscotland

    A final quote from the great thinker Chomsky, which is useful when you feel all is lost on the indy front.

    “Optimism is a strategy for making a better future. Because unless you believe that the future can be better, it’s unlikely you will step up and take responsibility for making it so. If you assume that there’s no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, there are opportunities to change things, there’s a chance you may contribute to making a better world. The choice is yours.”

    The choice is indeed ours.

  152. Northcode

    I’ve been reading some of the articles on the Salvo website

    This from a Sara Salyers article:

    “The fact that Charles III of England will take, not a United Kingdom coronation oath, nor the legally mandated Scottish oath, but only the English coronation oath proves two essentially important things to those who aren’t too blinded by gaslighting to see it.

    It proves that there was no ‘Union’ but an annexation, a ‘kidnapping’, in plain sight, of a sovereign nation. And it proves that the treaty was a legal fiction, a fraud perpetrated to provide the appearance of legitimacy, (a longstanding British colonial MO) to an act of straightforward colonisation.

    Scotland has been incorporated into the colonial domains of England, as a possession of that nation, to be governed according to the English Constitution and under English territorial, legal and political sovereignty.”

    extract from an article (14th Apr 2023) by Sara Salyers

    Scotlands kidnapping Plunder and Forced Fake Marriage

    “The Treaty was and is a fraud. A legal fiction for masking an illegal act of annexation – that thing the coloniser does.” – Sara Salyers

  153. Stuart MacKay


    I’m interested to see how things pan out in Germany with the rise of the AfD. discusses the threat they pose to the EU and NATO but if you read the article a lot of the policies are ones which any independence movement would adopt by default. For the lazy or hard of thinking, that means they prefer sovereignty to globalisation.

    In any case the lesson for Scotland would appear to be: if they’re not trying to ban you then you’re doing it wrong.

  154. Stuart MacKay

    John Main

    So what’s the lesson from Rustem Umierov? From his wikipedia page he’s just another Russian-hating, Oligarch who was recruited by the CIA via the US State Department. He might have served his country in the initial negotiations for peace but he listened to Boris and now wants a bigger slice of the pie.

  155. Tinto Chiel

    @RoS: unfortunately, Chomsky lost his sainted status for me (despite my regard for him as a language theorist) when he said that “the unvaccinated should just remove themselves from society.”

    ‘How can we get food to them?’ asks Chomsky. ‘Well, that’s actually their problem’.

    Quite astounding how people like he, Esther Rantzen DBE and Edwina Currie could viciously scape-goat those who wished to retain bodily autonomy from an untested “vaccine” and yet were quite happy to place them in a societal ghetto.

    These people were obviously deaf to the lessons of history.

  156. Dan

    @ Republicofscotland at 7:36 pm

    Re. That second quote from Chomsky:
    If you go to one demonstration and then go home, that’s something, but the people in power can live with that. What they can’t live with is sustained pressure that keeps building, organisations that keep doing things, people that keep learning lessons from the last time and doing it better the next time.

    The issue with that quote is that it omits the crucial aspect that those in power have the tools and therefore the ability to diffuse any build up of pressure as and when they want.
    Two or three of those big AUOB marches had turnouts getting pretty close to the 2% of the population figure in attendance. That is a significant figure as there was a study that showed this can be a tipping point for a movement to progress.
    Of course we all know what happened since those big AUOB grassroots marches a good few years ago; Those in positions of power started all sorts of shenanigans to stifle and divide the movement. An objective clearly achieved and displayed by a much reduced turnout on the astroturf march a few days ago.

  157. Tinto Chiel

    @red 2.00: “As voters, we aren’t the customers. We’re the product. Their customers are powerful people such as the CBI, the banks, the EU, the US government, and the WEF. That’s why our governments reliably never fail to let the general public down. It’s not (mere) incompetence, they simply do not work for us at all.”

    Exactly, it’s the death of representative democracy and it’s to be seen across the EU. The MSPs amd MPs here simply do as they are instructed by the party whips and don’t give a flying fruit bat for their constituents, whose concerns are ignored and fobbed off by boiler-plate reponses dictated by party apparatchiks pushing Globalist “agendas”.

    Apologies in advance if this appears twice.

  158. Johnlm

    Chomsky went weird after 911.
    ‘Blowback’ rather than physics.

  159. John Main

    @Stuart MacKay says:4 September, 2023 at 8:03 pm

    I guess you don’t think a family history of being ethnically cleansed from your ancestral homeland by a imperialist, colonialist aggressor gives the victim any true insight about the real meaning of colonialism.

    Or perhaps, and unsurprisingly, as I predicted, he fails one of your ideological purity tests, and thus must be disqualified from consideration. No Platformed, in other words.

    Anyhoo, I find it instructive that Mr Umierov only came into politics in 2019. As I have been pointing out on here for some time, there is no need for Scottish Indy to be chained to the same old tired faces that have been screwing us up and over since 2014. All over Europe, new politicians and new parties are springing up in response to the new challenges and difficulties we are all facing.

    Most of us agree there is no hope for Indy until 95% of the current wasters are binned. So we need new blood. Luckily, we can see plenty of examples of how that is possible.

  160. Alf Baird

    Northcode @ 7:43 pm

    ““The Treaty was and is a fraud. A legal fiction for masking an illegal act of annexation – that thing the coloniser does.” – Sara Salyers”

    Aye Northcode, this is also referred to as the ‘colonial hoax’, upon which many native peoples left holding worthless one-sided violated treaties have been duped.

    Some Scots clearly still believe in their minds that they are in a ‘union’, without realising that as soon as they start to ‘mimic the colonizer’ and elevate his values, whilst rebuking those wha aye speak the native tongue and stay close to native culture and values, they become a part of the hoax, condemning themselves and their ain fowk an naition.

  161. Johnlm

    John Main unquestioningly supports a gangster state like 404, yet at home is a cheese eating surrender monkey.
    Up your game.

  162. Colin Alexander

    Westminster Parliament operates on the basis of (English) Crown in Parliament sovereignty of Parliament.

    The constitution of Scotland is sovereignty of the people.

    That fundamental difference cannot be squared. They are absolutely incompatible.

    Every Scots politician acts against the Scottish constitution of sovereignty of the people when they swear allegiance to the English Crown / UK head of state.

    I don’t care if it’s Alex Salmond, Joanna Cherry, Tommy Sheridan or whoever. It’s a betrayal of Scottish sovereignty so they can have British political careers ££££££.

  163. John Main

    @Johnlm says:4 September, 2023 at 9:18 pm

    See when you start calling people monkeys? Some people can take a lot of offense over things like that.

    An awful lot of offense.

    As I said yesterday, I don’t think you are quite the “full shilling”. But still. You seem to lack the capacities to contribute meaningfully on here, so maybes you need to talk things over with a family member.

    It’s nothing to be ashamed of or embarrassed about. But see if there’s a safer hobby for you to devote yourself to.

  164. Johnlm

    84? words.
    Nothing constructive.
    As usual.

    And obviously not a fan of The Simpsons

  165. Derek

    “Johnlm says:
    4 September, 2023 at 9:18 pm

    John Main… …is a cheese eating surrender monkey.”

    Whatever you want to call him, I’m fairly sure that he isn’t French.


  166. Ron Clark

    Main,,,the site tosser with all his different “names” at his disposal,,,to use whenever his own line dries up.

    Watch out for them getting used to take the spotlight away from him.

    He is a fuckin nob.

  167. Johnlm



    I’m just going out now and I maybe some time.

  168. ben madigan

    Hope you’ll forgive me Rev Stuart as I take advantage of your platform to communicate an urgent message

    Wingers (activists, commentaters, readers, supporters and lurkers) could you all please go online and write to

    to express your disapproval of non-jury courts

    All submissions must be lodged by September 8th 2023
    There’s no time to waste!

    More info, and help with e-mails, at:

    Thanks for your attention and the Rev Stuart’s kind hospitality. I’m confident you will do what you can

  169. Billy Carlin

    TURABDIN 5:36 pm

    Utter DRIVEL! Totally nothing to do with the Anglo-Normans. This Cestui Que Vie Trust Scam Bonded SLAVE System we are all born into was first created by Pope Boniface VIII in 1307 – the first Express Trust in history called Unum Sanctum – A Claim of Right where they claimed that everything and everyone on this planet belonged to the VATICAN. Santos Bonacci does an excellent job of explaining all of this on his video “MUST WATCH Your Soul Is Owned By The Vatican” on the Strawman Burneth Youtube channel – He doesn’t mention the Vatican’s 1452 Doctrine of Discovery agenda to take over this planet from what I remember.

    The video “Roman Cult Slave Scam It’s All Coming From The Vatican” on the Sovereignliving Youtube channel also totally exposes this and his videos also expose the SCAM legal system created and controlled by the Vatican hence why they all wear black robes in the courts. Jordan Maxwell also totally exposes the Religions and Secret Societies and how they are all the EXACT same OCCULT Astrotheology and the ZODIAC, Numerology etc as do many other people as well.

    You and the likes of CHAS are the sheep that I mentioned who NEVER use your own brain or are just incapable of CRITICAL THINKING and just believe everything these MAFIAS tell you because the real TRUTH is too much for your brain cell. The Governments, Councils, Courts etc are all part of the Vatican/Rothschild’s SCAM Banking system and they all operate under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) and as I said on here and provided EVIDENCE for in my video “The Democracy Illusion Everything Is WAS A Corporation” on my william woods Youtube channel ALL Private Corporations were Foreclosed (SHUT DOWN) in 2012 including the Banks, Governments, Councils, Courts etc and all FAKE debt was written off all under that Uniform Commercial Code which caused the Pope to resign back then. Every single Scottish MSP and MP were legally notified of this as was the Prime Minister as well but them all being puppets they have not told the people any of this as they carry on with carrying out the NWO agenda on behalf of the Vatican etc because they know that if the people find out they will be brought to account – why do you think that they have been scaring the dumb masses with the COMMON COLD (Coronavirus) into taking lots of FAKE vaccines 98% full of the Graphene Oxide TOXIN this last few years and they are going to do it all again soon PERMANENTLY forcing everyone to take more and more of these jabs to get their social credit etc to get rid of most of the people on this planet. Some people on here are aware of all of this because they actually use their brains and these MAFIAS are actually telling everyone what they are doing but most people prefer living in their world of bread and circuses.

  170. Billy Carlin

    PhilM 6:38 pm

    “Billy Carlin’s capitalized words from his last certifiable ravings” Oh Dear – Typical comment from the THICK and ignorant just like CHAS and TURABDIN.

    My comment and everything that I say is actually based on EVIDENCE – Legal documents and Vatican/Pope Papal Bulls etc – and just because you and CHAS and TURABDIN etc are THICK and ignorant and too lazy to do your own research makes anything I have said certifiable ravings. You people are perfect examples of how these MAFIAS have been getting away with conning the masses for thousands of years since the days of Babylon where all this originally comes from. Their MAFIA empires collapse and they just build them back up again via their OCCULT religions and secret societies. Of course people like you NEVER have any EVIDENCE to rebut anything that I or anyone else says or the people in the links I provide.

    Of course people like you being clueless about Contract Law and Trust Law are so easy for these MAFIAS to con you into thinking that Treaties, Constitutions, Acts, Statutes etc relate to you when in FACT it is a general principle of law and reason that a written instrument binds NO ONE until he has signed it.

    If you have NOT signed a document and do not want to or agree with any document then NO ONE can force that document on you. This is why they con your mother into registering you and why they con you into registering your house, car and children handing over OWNERSHIP of you and them to the VATICAN and conning you into giving all those taxes etc to them to pay back the massive loans of NOTHING plus interest they NEVER lent a single penny of to our puppet governments when as I said they should be printing their own debt and interest and inflation free money instead but you will never get any of the corrupt puppet political parties telling you any of this but they will defend this scam system instead and they get away with all of this because of dumb people such as yourselves.

  171. A Scot Abroad

    This place remains as enjoyably bonkers as always.

    Indy is always going to be 100 years into the future. Just – just – enough to put it into a human lifespan, but in reality, too far away for any commentator BTL.

  172. John Main

    @Ron Clark says:4 September, 2023 at 11:46 pm

    Watch out for them getting used to take the spotlight away from him

    Ach, Ron, ye should jist post in Doric, or Gaelic, or Lallans, or TellyTubbies, or whateffer yer first language is.

    Cos yer English translation program is fecked. Soz.

    Neffer mind, here’s a wee quote jist fer ye, I’m sure ye ken exactly fit it means:


  173. John Main

    @A Scot Abroad says:5 September, 2023 at 6:10 am

    Indy is always going to be 100 years into the future


    You can’t extrapolate from the fantasies of the tiny, bottom-feeding minority on here to the real world of the majority of decent, rational Scots.

    What will happen though, as new political parties and people come together to fill the political vacuum created by the death of the SNP, is that these new movements will, once again, organise to exclude the nutters, nasties and eejits from their ranks.

    Maybes Rev Stu will continue with his good work, providing the mouth-breathers with a platform on which they can maintain their delusions that they are advancing Scotland’s cause.

  174. John Main

    @Billy Carlin says:5 September, 2023 at 2:05 am

    I believe the laws of this country amount to many, many shelve feet of documents, in fact, I am sure I read somewhere that there is something like 26 feet of documents covering tax law alone.

    So I am just wondering how, in a day-to-day, practical way, you manage to get by, refusing to obey all laws you have not signed up for.

    Not taxing the car, not stealing crisps, not shouting “deviant” in the street. These are all legal requirements I never signed up for, and I bet you didn’t either.

    Do you conform with this “scam system” like a “dumb person”, or do you walk among us, the only truly free Scot in Scotland?

  175. Xaracen

    Colin Alexander said;

    “Every Scots politician acts against the Scottish constitution of sovereignty of the people when they swear allegiance to the English Crown / UK head of state”

    Every Scots politician acts against the Scottish constitution of sovereignty of the people when they accept the majority votes of the English Kingdom’s MPs, for any matter the Scots MPs voted against.

    The UK is a Union; Union decisions are only Union decisions when both of its partners vote for them. Decisions passed on English MP majorities despite Scottish MP majorities against are English decisions, not Union ones, and are undemocratic, and unconstitutional.

  176. Chas

    Does anybody wonder what fitba team the bold Bobby Carlin supports?
    I will give you a clue-they do not play in green and white hoops!


    Some information about the pseudonymous CARLOS BONACCI, the guru of btl poster BILLY CARLIN.
    Certain people do seem to have an ADDICTION to CULTISTS and CULTISM, PSEUDO SCIENCE and GNOSTICISM.
    Like goats to the lion’s lare?
    What is BILLY CARLIN, who may not even live in this hemisphere, doing on this site? A missionary perhaps?
    Or is it his talent to amuse as a totem of human folly?
    For further «enlightenment» check this out.
    A quick scan should do it.
    BILLY, don’t be a GOAT.

  178. akenaton

    I wish all the personal stuff regarding other posters opinions would cease, it rather defeats the purpose employed by Mr Campbell in making this a haven of free speech.
    Personal abuse should have no place here, but two or three posters are regularly picked on for expressing their opinions, sometimes because the abusers fail to recognise the use of irony?

    I used to contribute to an American folk music site populated by mainly very left wing Democrats and Corbyn supporters from England. Unbelievably, they found my address and some of them actually came to the small village where I live and started spreading shit. I challenged them and made them aware that I had four big strong sons two of whom were involved, like myself in the building trade. They soon buggered off but the internet can be pretty dangerous sometimes so please be careful before posting

  179. Mac

    That Effie Deans piece that was tweeted is very interesting.

    My only real disagreement is that I don’t think we can really totally trust the 2014 results. Personally I reckon if you removed all the dodgy votes it was most likely a dead heat in substance.

    If Scots were really such cowards in 2014 (and a lot of them undoubtedly were) then why the need for the unbelievably brutal and crude attempts to destroy Alex Salmond and the SNP itself. All done from within… That all happened post 2014.

    Seems to me something about 2014 really spooked someone… the spooks got spooked.

    Other than that huge difference I think in substance the analysis is correct. The only coherent and consistent argument against Scottish independence is that Scotland is not really a country. Once you accept that it is… independence becomes an inevitable logical conclusion.

    And a lot of Scots are mercenary shitebags. They are just not prepared to risk anything. I’ve said it before all the Scottish DNA with the heart and courage to seize independence left on boats for the new worlds long ago. What is left is distilled cowardice and timidness. Ironically we cling to the braveheart image (the jibe about our ‘cosplay’ has a lot of truth for sure), while being the exact opposite.

    When was the last time Scotland seriously rioted over anything? I don’t think we have got it in us anymore.

    It is a strange country for sure, if it is one…


    And the man who put the CONSPIRACY into THEORY.
    This is what used to be called NEW AGE or is it just a manifestation of old age decline?
    If the world is full of supposed «hidden agendas» why is such theorizing different?
    Another FUNDAMENTALISM in every particular, similar to WOKE.
    Anti Catholicism, a significant element in both, is a very powerful drug.

  181. Johnlm

    Freeman stuff is outside some people’s comfort zone.
    Anyone interested in sovereignty/ freeman philosophy

    Try Dean Clifford
    Dean Clifford Victoria British Columbia Seminar June 2013 (YouTube)

    Justinian deception
    THE-PERFECT-CRIME (justinian deception youtube channel)

    Eventually we’re going to have to work it out for ourselves

  182. Mac

    For those who did not see it…

    The analysis and summary of this site, SC and the other pro-independence writers is exactly the same for me. The only difference being I don’t consider SC my ‘opponent’. Other than that it could have been written for me.

    What really hit me reading that, is that this is a very important website (past and present).

    I always knew it but reading that Effie Deans piece I realised I had not fully appreciated just how important it is.

  183. pipinghot

    Mac, could not agree more. I ‘laugh’ when I hear a pipe band playing Scotland the brave. Country full of fucking cowards. I think we are being set up to fail deliberately. Ferries,bottle return,short let licence on the back of a lockdown which lets be clear fucked everything and saved nobody. Four day week for civil servants? What? No other explanation makes sense. All of this is no accident.

  184. sarah

    @ Mac: “..all the Scottish with heart and courage left a long time ago”

    Not quite all. Skye Bridge toll activists. The Nae Pasaran men. Alex Salmond. Craig Murray. The Rev.

  185. stuart mctavish

    Guess the best take from any march about not being dragged out the EU some three to seven years after the event is that, as far as I’m aware, it still managed to attract more, much more, than anything organised by the side that’s been OPENLY in favour of bending to England’s swill since 2014.

    That said, not sure Humza’s joy at Scots not being able to get to where they are today without all the new Scots born elsewhere is as much to get excited about as it should be – maybe if he’d added* yuge thanks to Gregor Townsend and a special mention for all the South African grandparents courageous enough to marry Scots during apartheid it’d have put a bigger smile on all the right faces..

    *I didn’t listen or watch but if other commenters found the speeches to be excellent then its not impossible that he already did, or used his own words (and not just the one that gets reported for my attention) to better effect

  186. John Main

    @Mac says:5 September, 2023 at 9:30 am

    a lot of Scots are mercenary shitebags

    Of course, and the ever increasing percentage of New Scots are the most mercenary of the lot. Never forget, nobody voluntarily ups sticks to a new country and new life in the expectation they will be worse off.

    They are just not prepared to risk anything

    Of course, and why should they? The route to Indy must be paved with economic and political competence, leaving the final jump from profitable Scottish devolution to even more profitable and advantageous Scottish Indy as a plausible, reliable and self-evident one.

    all the Scottish DNA with the heart and courage to seize independence left on boats for the new worlds long ago. What is left is distilled cowardice and timidness

    Of course. But you won’t get acceptance and acknowledgement of that harsh truth as long as people cling to the comfort blanket that only the bastid English were/are colonisers. We saintly Scots wus helpless victims.

    Boil together all these facts and the result is obvious – the route to Indy lies through making the economic case. That is the only common factor that appeals to us indigenous Scots and our ever-increasing population of New Scots. That realpolitik conclusion was belatedly acknowledged by Alba a few weeks back, but continues to be studiously ignored on here.

    But never mind. I will continue to point this out. In the real world outside of our tightly curtained bedroom windows, it’s all about the money. Always was, and always will be.


    «freedom» is a term which has been employed by many who may well seek the opposite.
    When it is contextualized as «freedom from», it is the «from» that ought to be of concern. The «froms» who ought to be worried, as ought we all.
    The American «freedomers» have a long list of people, ideas they desire to be free of.
    There is a tie in between this puritan fundamentalism and the KKK, American exceptionalism, counter feminism, millenarianism, free masonry and similar purveyors of «esoteric wisdom» allegedly suppressed by dark powers i.e Rome; a modern version of ancient cultic Gnosticism.
    Aleister Crowley couples with Dan Brown?
    This notion of hyper-individualized freedom and liberation has little to offer Scotland or the nationalist cause except more backwater to drown in.

  188. John Main

    @Mac says:5 September, 2023 at 9:58 am

    I just read that Effie Deans piece. Thanks for the link.

    Ouch, the truth can be so very painful when you are slapped across the mooth with it.

    But as the old saw goes, it can set you free.

  189. John Main

    @TURABDIN says:5 September, 2023 at 10:44 am

    You left out freedom from poverty.

    It’s an essential, whereas all the others you list are mere nice-to-have’s.

    You want Indy? Then show us Scots, Sovereign and above all New, the money.

  190. James Che

    North Code. 4 sept 7: 43pm
    Alf Baird, 9: 06pm.

    There was no union of between Scotland and England parliaments, it is Colonial in its evidence as hoax treaty.
    Salvo has come to the same conclusion as my research via a different path, but with the same results,
    Alf, you have came to the same conclusion via excellent study of Colonialism.
    More are more of us are beginning to understand that there never was a treaty between Scotland and England,
    It has been a very long and entrenched hoax fallacy. And you will find unionist minded people on here attempting to hang on to the surreal treaty,

    The fact is, that the Scottish nation has not had easy access to the secret details or the shinanagins that is been carried on since the hoax,
    With information of all sorts being deliberately hidden from Scots,

    From the “MacCrone type” reports to the Parliament of Westminster making treaties with Ireland, America, or treaties of London and many more slips
    We find the parliament of England masquerading under the hoax Great British Parliament cover blanket.

    We are on the verge of information discovery and what that means for Scotland in reality if there is actually No treaty of union. The nonsense of a begging Scot has to end.
    The nonsense of how little Scotland would have left if we left, IF The devolved government from Englands Westminster parliament branch office was to negotiate separation terms,

    The trollops, promotors and trolls of the “hoax treaty of union” must be ignored for the first time in over 300 years, they are eager maintain the Hoax and to shoot the messengers down before he can spread the news,

    It is detrimental that the true independence grassroots movement in Scotland listen, for it can not be emphasised enough the difference between Scotland holding the reset button of there having been “No treaty of union” for negotiations purposes.
    The first scenario gives us the upper hand.

    Compared to Westminster Colonial branch office, the devolved pretendy government sent into Scotland to Colonial negotiate on our behalf,

  191. Johnlm

    Still waiting for John Main to explain what he meant when he said

    “Remember the rules, Brian, rich countries pay in, poor countries hold their national hands out, and we will be a rich country.”
    John Main @10pm 16 August 2023

  192. James Che

    North Code.
    Alf Baird,

    If we let the pretendy Colonial devolved parliament in Scotland under the Snp or any british registered political party in that pretendy holyrood negotiate separation, we will be Asset stripped further, will enter into further first tome union, with no reparations.

    It it important that Scotland having proved there was no parliamentary union of kingdoms in 1707 come out with a reset button and all Scotlands land and see is returned,
    But legally it goes much deeper,
    There would be need to be a financial return of taxations that was stolen from Scots under the guise of the hoax treaty
    From income taxes.
    Vehicle taxes,
    Council taxes
    Drinks and food taxes.
    The list is endless.
    Agriculture and fisheries,

    This is just the tip of the iceburg.

    If the Colonial Westminster legislated pretendy parliament continued play acting it was still under the guise of Scottish parliament,
    it would rip Scotland of in negotiations.

    With this in mind,

    If we recognise for the first time in Scotland, that a union between Scotland and England never took place, The Colonial Parliament of Westminster is set instantly on the wrong side of legal in any negotiations.

  193. robertkknight

    Effie Deans/Lily of whatever (and others) seems to be oblivious (perhaps conveniently) to the fact that in 2014 it wasn’t the Scots who voted to keep Scotland in the Union, but the non-Scots.

    “Truth hurts when slapped etc.”

    The majority of Scots who voted rejected the Union in favour of Independence. The fact that voters originally from outwith Scotland tipped the result in the opposite direction is an inconvenient truth for many in the Unionist camp. Far better just to sweep that under the carpet and celebrate Cameron’s ability to have had Her Maj’ “purring” down the telephone line, eh?

    Personally speaking… my gut instinct is that the outcome of 2014 was never in doubt and that somehow, (For example, Westminster insisting upon a confirmatory referendum to endorse any “divorce settlement”, undoubtedly to Scotland’s detriment, whilst ensuring Spain made plenty of noise about a “Veto” in return for talks about Gibraltar at an undisclosed future point), the road to Indy via a referendum/”Yes” vote would be one which was heavily mined.

    Far better IMHO to have pro-Indy MP’s steer clear of WM and not lend any legitimacy to the current (un)constitutional arrangement.

    What Effie and others confuse, deliberately I suspect, is to treat legitimate dissatisfaction with the SNP amongst Yessers as an abandonment of their ultimate goal. In saying that, one should never interrupt ones enemy whilst they’re making a mistake, so do carry on Euphemia, and others…


    «Justinian Deception» etc…the brain numbing allure of that arcane wisdom the deceived masses afflicted by collective ignorance are not party to.
    Latin, such a good language for deception…amo, amas, amat…qui, quae, quod….such perfidy!
    Secrecy, the misty, mystic world of the self styled «adept».

    Scotland is, nevertheless, still the land of reason and «common sense», for that mercy
    Deo gratias!

  195. robbo

    Well mibbe this Effie Deans character could explain what the difference of Scotland and England union and the union of Norway and Sweden before its dissolution back in 1905?

    Do the English(WESTMINISTER- lets not forget) ignore the tiny minority Scottish MP’s conveniently placed to give it credibility think we’re just going to go away and shut up? FORGET IT.

    There’s a lot of similarities between these two unions- a few things are different. Scottish unionists should get aff their fucking knee’s and show some back bone instead of accepting the status quo. Every day Westminster builds up debt on Scottish assets and tell us what’s best for us -appeasing these parasites in London extracting all the wealth of both countries to foreign debtors, at same time running up huge UK national debt daily.

    Nearing £3 trillion ffs .Get a fecking grip.,an%20independent%20constitutional%20monarchy%20on%2026%20October%201905.

  196. Johnlm

    You seem to be attaching a lot of baggage to the word freedom.
    All BTL here seem to loath politicians.
    Many here seem to despise their fellow ‘citizens’
    Being controlled by those we detest is not a great philosophy.

    Freedom is basically the right to negotiate your own contracts.

    Conspiracy is just people getting together, in secret, to do things.
    Conspiracies happen every day, in Scotland and across the World.



    Ironically, you did not grasp my post, however «freedom from poverty» is yet another load of political pie in the sky a shibboleth of the posing righteous.

  198. John Main

    @robertkknight says:5 September, 2023 at 11:45 am

    The majority of Scots who voted rejected the Union in favour of Independence. The fact that voters originally from outwith Scotland tipped the result in the opposite direction is an inconvenient truth for many in the Unionist camp

    Beats me why you want to believe that is inconvenient only for Yoons. Fecking inconvenient for every fecker in Scotland that voted Yes, methinks. Jeezo.

    As I will never tire of pointing out, focusing on the money solves the Sovereign and New Scots divide issue re Indy support. As I will never tire of pointing out, New Scots are even more grasping and greedy than we are. If it helps, think of them as rapacious colonists.


    As I will never tire of pointing out, the eternal scab picking and raking over the cold ashes of the ancient guff, appeals to hardly anybody in the real world.

    Whereas, focusing on the money does.

    The New Scots aren’t going away. They’re not going to abstain or be disqualified in future votes. Their numbers are ever increasing, partially due to ScotGov policies. Policies arising from the real-world behaviours and expectations of us Sovereign Scots.

    We either harness the support of the New Scots for Indy, or we give up. The demographics are unarguable.

    Ouch, the truth can be so very painful when you are slapped across the mooth with it twice in one day.


    I have, as a result of my heritage, no illusions/delusions re freedom. That certainly cannot be said for those living in the west where the word may mean just what the user wishes it to mean.
    In the long run, it is not an absolute in a civilized context. In the wilds of farbeyond it might be.
    Freedom comes with responsibilities which may be frustratingly burdensome.

  200. Red

    robertkknight says:
    5 September, 2023 at 11:45 am
    Effie Deans/Lily of whatever (and others) seems to be oblivious (perhaps conveniently) to the fact that in 2014 it wasn’t the Scots who voted to keep Scotland in the Union, but the non-Scots.

    There’s a lot more foreigners in Scotland now than there were in 2014, and fewer Scots because Scottish people can’t be arsed procreating.

    At this rate, urban Scotland will come to resemble London/Birmingham/Manchester/Hong Kong etc. and rural Scotland will be full of English people escaping diversity. At that point, game’s a bogey for the idea of a Scottish nation-state. Our country will just be a housing scheme for anybody who fancies living here, with no particular culture or identity of its own.

    Personally speaking… my gut instinct is that the outcome of 2014 was never in doubt and that somehow

    It was as fair and honest a referendum as we were going to get, despite everything. The establishment put its thumb on the scales and very narrowly “won”, the same trick didn’t work for Brexit. They won’t give us another Indy referendum because they’re still angry at the plebs being allowed to vote the ‘wrong’ way on Brexit.

    But if we’d gotten a narrow Yes in 2014, they’d still have put us through years of desperately trying to block, reverse or obviate the democratic result. They’d probably still be demanding a final, ‘confirmatory’ second referendum while loudly claiming everything that goes wrong is the fault of (UK) Leavers.

    Billy Carlin says:
    4 September, 2023 at 5:25 pm
    Sarah 3:16 pm

    Democracy as I have said on here before is an illusion and always has been. The Scottish people and people of all other countries have NEVER been sovereign all owned and controlled just like Switzerland by the VATICAN

    Never you mind, Billy.

    You’re still in the Europa League.

  201. Mac

    Very interesting article from former UK diplomat / intelligence operative. Alastair Crooke

    Making sense (if you can call it that) of a lot of what we are seeing with all the woke madness / poison. Things really are as bad as they seem.

  202. Northcode

    Alf Baird @4th Sept 9:06pm

    “Some Scots clearly still believe in their minds that they are in a ‘union’”

    When first introduced to your papers and book, just a few months ago, your writings on Post Colonial Theory and how it applied to Scotland in the form of internal-colonisation immediately rang true for me.

    Perhaps my own life experiences made me more receptive to the idea that Scotland is effectively, or actually, a colony.

    This is from an article on the Salvo website written by yersel:

    Colonialism is not that difficult to understand.

    Colonialism is first and foremost economic plunder.

    Everything is taken from the country cheaply – oil and gas, energy, aggregates, food, whisky – with goods sold back to the natives at higher cost.

    extract from Scotland’s Colonial Status
    by Professor Alf Baird

    “The role of a colony is primarily to serve the needs of the mother country, in this case England.” – Alf Baird

    The theft of Scotland’s rich natural resources becomes apparent when the “‘kidnapping’, in plain sight”, as Sara Salyers puts it, is first seen for what it really is – though I suspect that for many Scots that first sighting is perhaps the most difficult psychological barrier to break through; having been ‘persuaded’ by their oppressor to look the other way while it goes about its ‘business’.

  203. Northcode

    Correction on my last post:

    ‘Post Colonial Theory’ should read ‘postcolonial theory’

  204. James Che

    The mounting evidence through historical records and archives is pointing to there have been no treaty of union, and under the fallacious hoax of Englands Westminster parliament it simply rebranded itself as the parliament of Great Britain after the 1707 Scottish parliament was extinguished by the terms and ratification in 1707.
    Thus the Westminster parliament of England became the parliament of Great Britain in name only,

    As soon as the ratifications took place extinguishing the Scottish parliament from the treaty, the Westminster parliament of England under the new disguise of one kingdom of Great Britain set about altering the laws of Scotland, (Scots law) over laying them with the laws of England by imposing Crown laws, at the same time under English legislation incorporating the Crown into Westminster parliament to own Crown Sovereignty,
    Under the English Crown law of England not ( Scots law) Westminster made a decision to reform Scots laws,
    Making obsolete many laws of Scotland from pre-hoax treaty of union period.
    In this move they attempted to steal the independent Sovereignty of Scots,

    We find the parliament of great Britain at Westminster still acting but ( not openly advertising) that it is still operating as parliament of England under a number of its treaties.
    We also find the Westminster parliament speeches on Colonial Stock Scotland acts,

    Under the guise of being the Great British parliament system we discover that the Bank of England never changed or altered to become the bank of Great Britain, but remained connected to the treasury and exchequer as the bank of England.
    The privy Council remained the privy Council of England,

    If we search the “oil” records we find Westminster parliament acting as a English and separate entity from Scotland and the title of the Great Britain parliament when it withholds the MacCrone report from Scotland.
    We find The Westminster parliament of England acting as the sole arbitour of ” the treaty of union” in refusing Scotland to make its own decisions towards refusing Scotland to partake in trade deals, Brexit votes, referendums, or even holding a franchise for its voting system,
    We also discover Scotland is one of the few places around the world that is not allowed its own media sources that are not under Colonial owned media.

  205. John Main

    Everything is taken from the country cheaply – oil and gas, energy, aggregates, food, whisky – with goods sold back to the natives at higher cost

    Got to say, I perked up at whisky!

    So, post-Indy, we can all look forwards to cheaper drams?

    Haha, I crack me up.

    Anybody who wants to plausibly explain how, post-Indy, whisky will be sold in Scotland at below international market prices, without attracting punitive, Edinburgh-imposed taxation, can strike a blow for Indy that will garner tens of thousands of Yes votes in a single afternoon.

    Don’t all rush at once. The Wings site might crash.

  206. Stuart MacKay

    Mac @12:31pm

    Thanks for the Alastair Crooke article. A very interesting read. I’ve seen this assessment in a few places now which lends some credence to the idea that it is happening / will really happen. Crooke takes a much longer view which gives some insight as to how this all came about.

    As to what is means for independence. Well, it would seem likely that an appeal on the grounds that Scots are an indigenous, colonised people(s) and so deserve a place of their own is not going to wash – we’re simply too white. As a result I think are chances are greater once the forecast “revolutionaries clash” begins, but that ultimately depends on who wins – assuming there is anything left to claim victory over.

    As for the current incumbents in Holyrood. Well, they’re on the side of the 1968 revolutionaries, yet we expect them to be 1776 revolutionaries. It’s simply never going to happen. So who will do it? Hard to say. Salvo, at least in principle, are close but obviously lack the muscle and possibly the determination. The ISP are 1916 revolutionaries, which more or less get us there but again, lack the muscle. The others are a lot more 1968 than 1776 so there is a gap for someone to fill. Alternatively, we could just wait to see how this plays out in the Ever Closer Union and adjust our position or expectations accordingly.

  207. Alf Baird

    John Main says:
    5 September, 2023 at 1:03 pm

    “below international market prices”

    You miss the key point, that the UK-FCO chaps aye running the SWA tell us Scotland’s whisky exports are only approx 20% of their actual value…hence much like oil, gas, renewables etc. Even the STUC know this.

    And as Northcode refers above:

    “Colonialism is not that difficult to understand. Colonialism is first and foremost economic plunder. Everything is taken from the country cheaply – oil and gas, energy, aggregates, food, whisky – with goods sold back to the natives at higher cost.”

  208. A Scot Abroad

    It was the union in 1707 that (apart from 1745, and an idiot Prince) gave Scots the peace and freedom to pursue trade or emigrate for opportunity, initially in the northern hemisphere, then globally. Scots are, proportionately, the greatest colonisers in world history. My forebears took full part in that, my great grandfather and his younger brother making an absolute mint out of trade in Burma, before retiring to buy and build up an estate in Perthshire, providing employment and housing for around 40 people. Another great great great uncle did much the same, in South Carolina, dying there, but his son returned to Scotland and opened up a business in Glasgow building ships at Scotstoun. And there are a million other stories of similar Scottish success, from Canada to South Africa to New Zealand.

    People who whine on about Scotland being doun hauden don’t understand the full picture

  209. lothianlad

    Again, 100% Stu!!
    Thank you


    ASCOTABROAD 02:19pm

    «People who whine on about Scotland being doun hauden don’t understand the full picture»

    I reckon they do, colonialism is colonialism whoever engages in it and whatever form it takes. There is NO good version.
    The leave your native country and be successful story is not born out by real experience. The majority had a hard time
    Some individuals may have prospered but the country they quit may well have not.
    Keep pulling your hat over your eyes but beware of those factual chasms.
    The «lad o pairts» is comforting folk tale.
    Curiously, there is no English equivalent.

  211. Ian Smith

    The idea that Scotland is colonised to serve England is daft.

    The English regions are not helped in any way, they are worse off than Scotland in having even less control over their local legislation and revenues.

    As government is consuming more and more of the economy, and as it interferes more and more in every aspect of people’s lives, everything that falls under their control is diverted to serve the kleptocrats with control, and they generally want everything close for their own benefit and hands on control.

    For the UK it’s London, for Scotland it’s Edinburgh, for Highlands it’s Inverness, for Caithness it’s Wick. Similarly you see the same with Brussels, Washington, Moscow, Vienna, Libreville. The few exceptions prove the rule.

    Resources are squandered near the centre of power, no matter how much more costly it is compared to the rest of the country, or how imbalanced societies become. Because the leaders can. It’s easier for them, beneficial to their wealth, comfort and ego, and other people are forced to foot the bill.

    Crumbs are thrown at the regions but more in order to protect the status quo than as an equitable and rational allocation.

  212. Alf Baird

    Ian Smith @ 3:42 pm

    “The idea that Scotland is colonised to serve England is daft.”

    Professor Michael Hechter’s thesis on the ‘UK Internal Colonialism Model’ may be of interest, as well as other aspects relating to colonial societies, assuming the subject is of interest:

  213. A Scot Abroad

    Alf Baird,

    you keep peddling these ridiculous theories of Scotland being colonised by the English, citing third rate academics that few regard as sound or influential, and you seem to have suckered in a few BTL here on WoS who repeat your nonsense, as you peddle your book.

    But it’s all still nonsense, and you know that. Scotland, and Scots, are the greatest colonisers in human history. There exists a possibility that parts of Scotland feel as though they were colonised, but that’s not actually true, and most of the colonising action was going outwards. Even to London and to U.K. government. Don’t forget, there’s 750,000 Scots by north that live in England (2021 census). Most of whom earn more than the U.K. national wage (HMRC).

  214. Aye Right

    A Scot Abroad:

    ‘Scotland, and Scots, are the greatest colonisers in human history. There exists a possibility that parts of Scotland feel as though they were colonised, but that’s not actually true, and most of the colonising action was going outwards. Even to London and to U.K. government.’

    What part of your colon did you pull that deranged rubbish from? Seriously. ‘There exists a possibility that parts of Scotland feel as though they were colonised…’ Really, aye? Fancy that! Whatever would give folk that idea, eh? Clearly just idle speculative absolutionist fantasy!

    What’s with the past tense with ‘feel as though they were colonised’? Clearly parts of Scotland feel/see/acknowledge that to this day, because we ARE colonised! We are run by another country, England! Co-lo-ni-sa-ti-on! We do not run England’s affairs for them, in case you have not noticed.

    As for this ‘Scotland, and Scots, are the greatest colonisers in human history’ crap, you are clearly genuinely quite mad if you believe this, or an English apologist, or trying to make Scottish people feel guilty. In any case, there is clearly no further use in engaging with you, when you have such a twisted, deranged, Scotland-hating (I don’t believe for one second you’re Scottish) extremist mindset.


  215. A Scot Abroad

    Aye Right,

    you are clearly someone who can’t handle the truth.

    Look up the data. Approximately 15 million Scots from 1707 to 1939 went abroad to the colonies and Dominions. About 99% of them voluntarily, not part of the clearances. It was a far higher proportion of the U.K. population than England or Wales sent, and slightly ahead of Ireland (most of who went to the USA, which wasn’t a colony after 1776). Scots went everywhere in the British Empire.

    It’s true. Scotland provided a vast number of colonists. And with 750,000 of Scots birth in England, it’s more true to state that Scotland is colonising England, as there’s less than 100,000 English living in Scotland.

  216. Big Jock

    If one country has to seek permission from a larger country to have a vote on its own future. And the larger country can veto it. What would you call that type of relationship? A colony.

    As for Scots being colonisers. Most Scots had no choice but to go and live in England’s colonies. They were either tossed out of their own land or impoverished by the British Union.

    They could either pick up a gun and die on the front line, or die in the slums of the cities. Not much of a choice.

    Sure you can site the 1% of wealthy Scots who were indeed colonisers for England. But history will tell you the majority were just people looking for a better life, not to take over.

    England since it’s first manifestation was obsessed with ruling other nations. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, India, Hong Kong, Africa…the list is endless.

    We are in a union with an elephant. So whatever is England’s war becomes defacto Scotland’s.

    That’s the best reason to end the Union.

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