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The Stupidity Of Vanity

Posted on July 31, 2023 by

The reality-TV let’s say “personality” Kelly Given – who Wings readers previously met on a trip to New York for Tartan Week with a raft of SNP let’s say “celebrities” a couple of months ago – has been off on another nice holiday.

Last night she told both the viewers of BBC Scotland’s “Seven Days” that she’d just spent three weeks on an island in Greece, where apparently she was quite shocked to discover that the Mediterranean nation was hot in July.

Greece is a country which has a summer heatwave with temperatures around the 40s almost every year, but Given conveyed near-astonishment as she explained that she’d spent one of the three weeks shut in her hotel room with the air conditioning on full, which is roughly as helpful to the environment as if she’d passed the whole time sitting in a double-decker bus with the engine running, spraying aerosols out of the window non-stop onto to a big pile of burning tyres filled with toxic waste.

She then proceeded, with no detectable irony, to take a rare break from jetting across the globe burning out aircon units to bemoan climate change.

But some echo-brained twit who’s torched more hydrocarbons in the last three months than Wings has in the last 30 years wittering on about having more green policies is just comic relief. The wider point is that the UK, and in particular Scotland, is in the grip of a mania for “Net Zero” which is the cause of more harm than even all the aviation fuel being expended on Ms Given’s behalf.

As noted by Iain Macwhirter in an excellent and measured Sunday Times column yesterday, Net Zero is – from a British or Scottish perspective – nothing more than pointless, pious virtue-signalling vanity. These tiny islands contribute less than 1% of greenhouse gases, a veritable drop of spilled oil in the ocean, and any reductions that could conceivably be made – even if the mythical Zero were achieved – are instantly dwarfed by the increases from the big-four polluters: China, India, the US and Russia.

Even if you graph the UK’s output against just one of them, the result is farcical. And of course, if you’re talking about Scotland alone you can divide that already-meaningless figure by 10, putting it to all intents and purposes on the graph’s X axis, ie already as close to zero as makes no odds.

The debate about whether man-made climate change is happening at all (and as far as we can tell the evidence that it is is pretty well beyond argument) is a red herring, because to anyone in this country it simply doesn’t matter. It’s not our business. Climate change will, or won’t, happen regardless of anything our piddly little country does, so we may as well burn everything we can get our hands on.

Scotland and the UK are complete and utter insignificances in the matter, making fools of themselves trying to look important in front of the big boys and girls on the world stage just like Ms Given did on the BBC Scotland sofa.

So we can safely chuckle at our old tapes of Frankie Boyle, the one time enfant terrible turned rich-woke-kapo, who used to have a funny routine about the pathetic futility of recycling your jam jars while China builds eight new coal-fired power stations a second but is now to be found urging the government to ban development of new oil fields in the North Sea and bitterly bemoaning the greed of oil companies from on top of a nice big comfortable pile of money.

(Frankie doesn’t have to to worry about the runaway price of food, paying LEZ fines in Glasgow just to get to his work because he can’t afford a cleaner new van, or being hit with a £15,000 bill to replace his gas boiler with an inefficient, ineffectual heat pump.)

But it’s less funny to watch our government being so desperate for more selfies with an unimpressed-looking Greta Thunberg that it’s laying waste to the Scottish economy and the cost of living for hard-pressed normal people, with a series of cretinous and costly policy disasters led by the idiot Greens and gormlessly waved through by the hapless collection of simpering, pliant brainfarts assembled by Nicola Sturgeon and Humza Yousaf as a cabinet of ministers.

The Scottish Government’s crippling ineptitude has already cost the country’s future billions of pounds via the criminal fire sale that was the Scotwind auction, and tens of millions already in the abysmally botched Deposit Return Scheme, with the prospect of hundreds of millions more as angry producers sue the government over wasted costs.

For Scotland to thrive as an independent nation (not that there appears to be any credible prospect of that any time soon), it would need to make the maximum use of all the resources available to it, including those under the ocean, and if that means telling the Greens and Just Stop Oil to get back to their lentils and button their yaps, then the sooner it’s done the better.

Wings could not be more in favour of renewable energy. It’s a good thing in its own right, and the more renewable energy projects there are in Scotland the more we like it. (We’re apparently a minority opinion on this, but we find windfarms a heartwarming sight, the bigger the better.) As a nation we’re enormously blessed in wave and wind and tide potential, just as we were with oil in the 80s, and this time we should try to make the most of it.

But Scotland attempting to solve climate change with renewables and harebrained policy initiatives is like a toddler trying to put out a house fire by crying on it – it won’t work, it’s embarrassing to watch and you’ll likely end up with a charred kid as well as a burnt-down house.

Readers can decide whether the independence movement or the Scottish people as a whole are the charred kid in this anology, but either way it’s long past time to hoof the vacuous “influencer” dimwits out of the room and call in some grown-ups.

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0 to “The Stupidity Of Vanity”

  1. Northcode

    The hot-headed man in the temple is like a tree grown indoors; only for a moment does it put forth roots. It reaches its end in the carpentry shop, it is floated away far from its place, or fire is its funeral pyre.

    The truly temperate man sets himself apart, he is like a tree grown in a sunlit field, but it flourishes, it doubles its yield, it stands before its owner; its fruit is something sweet, its shade is pleasant, and it reaches its end as a statue.

    For a storm come forth like fire in hay is the hot-headed man in his appointed time.

    May you be restrained before him; leave him to himself, and God will know how to answer him.

  2. Republicofscotland

    England’s London Labour takes control of its branch office in another country (Scotland) as it funds its Scottish branch office in order to win more seats.

    What other country (besides Scotland) would allow a foreign political party (England’s Labour party) to fund its branch office in another country to the tune of a million quid to try and influence foreign voters to vote for its branch office in another country.

    Why are the people of Scotland allowing fifth column parties to stand in Holyrood when its patently obvious that their HQs are in a foreign country, it must be stopped

    “SCOTTISH Labour have been given £1 million by the central UK leadership in order to target 25 seats north of the Border at the next General Election, according to reports.

    The money was sent to Anas Sarwar’s Scottish group after Keir Starmer “sacked Richard Leonard” as leader, according to Patrick Maguire in the Times.

    It was also reported that the “backroom communications and campaigns staff” of Scottish and UK Labour have been “integrated” – suggesting the London team has taken control despite protestations to the contrary from the Scottish group.”

  3. James Jones

    Michael Laing at 6:24 pm:

    “Keep going, chief! Few things do more to boost the cause of Scottish independence than insulting, fact-free comments like yours.

    Every word of your imbecilic comment is absolute nonsense. If you think English is somehow superior to Scots, it’s because you hold the insultingly arrogant belief that England is superior to Scotland. Well, you’re not going to convince many Scots of the benefits of the UK with that attitude, are you?”

    I don’t thing English is superior to “Scots”, I think “Scot’s” doesn’t exist despite all the silly phonetic spelling of English words which try to make it different. Spoken dialects are fair enough, but it’s not a “Scots language” anymore than Gerald’s rural Oxfordshire accent on Clarkson’s Farm.

  4. sam

    “Over the next few centuries, Scots, which was the language of the southern Scottish people, began to creep north while Scottish Gaelic, the language of the north, retreated. By about 1500, Scots was the lingua franca of Scotland. The king spoke Scots. Records were kept in Scots. Some other languages remained, but Scots was by far the most important.”


  5. James Jones

    Replying to Republicofscotland at 7:06 pm.

    You mean Great Britain’s Labour Party, which once relied heavily on Scottish votes to put it in the UK government. So they’re pitching for votes, you say? Well I never! What to do? Don’t vote Labour, perhaps? No one is forcing you.


    There is, judging by place names, a rich mix of languages Gaelic, Norse, Cumbric, Anglic in Scotland often to be found side by side or creating hybrid formations, why are «some» people so negatively exercised by that?
    Scotland is not relatively homogenized England, although that «some» does appear to wish it were.
    The ancient cancel culture of the tired Scotch Cringe or simply the provincial mindset on a day out?

  7. James Che


    William John Watson book, ( The Celtic place names of Scotland) may be of some help.

    If it is surmised that Burntisland is a copied but miss spelt error then the name may mean a place where there is a hill or ridge, a piece of land compared with the rest,

    I have never been to that particular bit of Scotland, if any one knows of the area, perhaps you would be kind enough to give a discription,

    The same book by the way suggests where Merlin was actually buried at the bottom of a thorn tree, a little below the church yard at powsail,

    When Tweed and Pausayl meet at Merlins grave,
    Scotland and England shall one Monarch have,

    It was believed to be fulfilled by a strange and den rising of the waters on the day that James VI ascended the English throne.

  8. Johnlm

    Yaffayat? Whityatyaffa?
    Yes, the Britannia. Mi pikininni belong missis kwin

  9. James Jones

    sam says at 7:22 pm:
    “Over the next few centuries, Scots, which was the language of the southern Scottish people, began to creep north while Scottish Gaelic, the language of the north, retreated. By about 1500, Scots was the lingua franca of Scotland. The king spoke Scots. Records were kept in Scots. Some other languages remained, but Scots was by far the most important.”

    And it was Pidgin. Unlike the Welsh, the Scots haven’t resurrected their own true language, Gaelic. Maybe it’s just too difficult, eh? Better to pretend that Pidgin English is it, and with pride, while simultaneously whining about “colonisation”. Irony overload.


    As the majority of official «sources» on Scottish history and culture are rehashes of tendentious North British or Oxbridge genre pro Union histories the only reasonably reliable sources are the originals.
    Given that Scotland, thanks to historic predation, has relatively few extant ancient documents that can prove tricky, like reconstructing broken artefacts.
    If you want to mentally screw a people distort and damage their history. Works time after time after time….if you let it.

  11. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Scotsmen were at the forefront of building the British Empire and in exploiting slaves. They made very successful slave owners and slave masters for several reasons. They were intelligent, well educated, hard-working, and didn’t have much in the way of opportunities in their original home country.

    Some here may be unaware that the last British owned slave to die in Britain died and is buried in Scotland. More surprising than that is just how recently she died. Little more than a hundred years ago.

    She was born into slavery in Surinam. Her new owner was a Scotsman by the name of Kirke who owned two huge plantations and a number of slaves numbering between three and four hundred during his period of ownership. He helped develop a Dutch colony, not a British one, but he is an exemplar of the Scottish slave-owning entrepreneur.

    She was in domestic service and was, by all accounts, a much loved nanny to the children and a brilliant housekeeper and seamstress.

    Kirke retired a hugely wealthy man, in modern day money the equivalent of a billionaire. He returned to Scotland where he bought a very large chunk of land to the North East of Burntisland (which still hadn’t been burnt) and built a monstrous Victorian pile.

    He wanted to bring his esteemed domestic slave to Scotland with him, but Dutch law forbad any slave in Surinam from leaving the country. Kirke went through an elaborate and lengthy and expensive legal process to have her slave status annulled and to have her documented as a free woman. The only time it had ever been done.

    She lived in a separate house from Kirke’s palatial superhome, but quite close by. Her house is now the garage of a still existing detached house less than a city block from the site of the now demolished superhome.

    The surprising thing, to me, is that she died in 1917. She is the last person to have been a British owned slave and to have died in Britain.

    Less surprising is that Kirke was hounded by the Revenue for taxes earned in Surinam. He was a stubborn bugger and the litigation lasted almost all of the rest of his long life. The combination of his voracious lawyers and those of the Revenue plus the taxes which the Revenue eventually extracted from him wiped out almost the entirety of his huge fortune.

    Just a small little snippet of mostly forgotten history, but an illustration of Scottish involvement in the slavery business in the not so distant past.

  12. James Che


    There is no such thing as the crown or it authority to intervene in Scotland or it laws on independence,
    Because of the Scots “Claim of right” rekindled and wrote into the articles of the political treaty of union 1707,

    Itis either a political union as agreed or it is not.

    The Sovereignty of Scots does not permit Crown sovereignty in Scotland.

    The Westminster parliament nor the supreme court cannot use the Crown in or under law in Scotland.

    Everything that is pushed on us from down south has no basis without breaching and breaking the political treaty of union,
    Including the Reform Scotland Acts, the Scotland Act, and the devolved government to Scotland.
    They all breach the treaty,

  13. sam

    What Scots really is is a fascinating centuries-old Germanic language that happens to be one of the most widely spoken minority native languages, by national percentage of speakers, in the world. You may not have heard of it, but the story of Scots is a story of linguistic imperialism done most effectively, a method of stamping out a country’s independence, and also, unexpectedly, an optimistic story of survival. Scots has faced every pressure a language can face, and yet it’s not only still here—it’s growing.

  14. Johnlm

    There are few more impressive sights in the world than a Britscot on the make.
    J M Barrie (with apologies)

  15. James Jones

    James Che at 8:04 pm said,
    “They all breach the treaty,”

    If that’s true then it’s clear cut, yet no one wanting independence is using it. Ask yourself why.

  16. James Che

    The bank of England was not wrote into the political agreement of the treaty of union articles as the corporation Bank of Scotland, and it remained the bank of England and Wales. A private corporation,

    Later after the uion agreement although “supposedly” was nationalised for England and Wales, it could not be so for Scotland due to no Article given it mention,
    It was never the bank of great Britain and has never been known as the bank of Great Britain, it remained a corporation bank in England and Wales.

    England does not hold any authority on Scotlands Country which could prevent it from printing its own currency,

    The monarch is not sovereign or head of Scotland and the parliament of Westminster is not Sovereign of or in Scotland.

    “Show us yet money” man can just wait until we have designed and printed our own currency after we decide what to base it on, it certainly wouldn’t be based on the corrupt plummeting pound of the Private corporation Bank of England branch office of the global Bank.

  17. James Jones

    Oh, the Bank of Che nonsense again. Anyway, I think you meant,

    Th’ bank o sassenach land wisnae wrote intae th’ political agreement o’ th’ treaty o’ union articles as th’ corporation bank o’ scootlund, ‘n’ it remained th’ bank o sassenach land ‘n’ wales. A private corporation,

    This could be fun.

  18. John Main

    I think we could mostly all agree (in as much as any assembly of Scots can ever agree on anything) that Craig Murray is deserving of our respect and admiration.

    How gratifying therefore, it is to see observe those occasions when he posts something on here.

    How unedifying to notice that on a thread of more than 500 posts, he has only found one post deserving of a response (2:53 pm).

    We really must try harder on here. That’s a relevance quotient of less than 0.2%

  19. robbo

    Chas says:
    4 August, 2023 at 6:52 pm
    It is always amusing seeing the members of the BPHB trying and failing in their pathetic attempts to show how much more ‘Scottishy’ they are compared to everybody else..


    I bet ur a rite fecking hoot doon the boozer.

  20. Shug

    I think alba should stay out of it. If the SNP lose alba would vet the blame. If alba don’t stand the SNP carry the entire blame and hopefully Humza will fall

  21. John Main


    “Scots has faced every pressure a language can face”

    Naw. It has not.

    You really do need to educate yourself about what real cultural oppression looks like.

    Alert readers compare you greetin into your dram over having to post here in English with the plight of, for example, the Uighurs in China and shake their heads in disbelief and sorrow.

  22. John Main

    @James Che 8:27

    I have a feeling in my water that I could be your “Show us yet money” man.

    If so, thanks for the mention.

    In return, I want to propose you as chancellor of the IScotland’s exchequer.

    Any seconders?

  23. Alf Baird

    Republicofscotland @ 6:16 pm

    “Freeports in Scotland exposed for the lie that they are”

    Aye RoS, anither unwantit Englis Tory ideology imposed on Scots agin oor will, wi the intent tae plunner Scotlan e’en mair.

  24. John Main

    @Shug 9:18

    If Alba don’t have the guts now to set out their pitch, when will they ever?

    Jeezo, if they don’t believe they have anything to offer us Scots now, just how bad will it have to get?

  25. John Main

    @Alf Baird

    Any evidence that Freeport’s are being imposed “agin oor will”?

    I get it that you are opposed, RoS too, although having RoS onside can’t be much comfort for you.

    But nobody has asked me, or the rest of us 5.5 million Sovereign Scots what we think. Maybes 6 million.

    Is it the case that oor wee pretendy parliament is opposed? Who cares about that shower of numptys and crims, with their fraud of a FM posturing at their head.

    As a Sovereign Scot, I am generally open to the idea that Freeports will reduce the cost to me of imported goods. Whilst not in the export business myself, I can well imagine that Sovereign Scots exporters will be keen to avail themselves of low cost, low complexity export opportunities.

    So why would any Sovereign Scot be agin that?

  26. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    In relation to the comment at 6.41 pm that: “At no time was Gaelic the dominant language in Southern Fife or the Lothians. The Gaelic speakers, even at the height of their culture’s history, were far far away. Theirs is a culture which has no place in this part of the country and never has had. It’s an alien language being imposed by a tiny minority on a huge majority. It’s absurd.”
    The following selection of placename entries are indebted to Iain Taylor’s book ‘Placenames of Scotland’ – 

    Markinch (Fife) > Marc Innis (Horse meadow)

    Incharvie (Fife). > Innis na h-Airbhe (Meadow at the boundary wall)

    Inchcolm (Fife) > Innis Choluim (St Columba’s island)

    Inchgall (Fife) > Innis Ghall (Island of non-Gaels)

    Abercrombie (Fife) > Obar Chrombaidh (Bent river mouth)

    Aberdour (Fife) > Obar Dobhair (The mouth of the water)

    Airbow (Fife) > Àird Bò (High point of cattle)

    Auchtermuchty (Fife) > Uachdar Mucadaidh (The upland of the pig place)

    Balbaird (Fife) > Baile a’ Bhàird (The poet’s farm”, or perhaps ‘meadow farm)

    Balcruvie (Fife) > Baile Craobhaigh (Wooded farm)

    Balgaverie (Fife) > Baile Geamhraidh (Winter farm)

    Ballo (Fife) > Bealach (Pass)

    Balmullo (Fife) > Baile a’ Mhullaich or Baile Mullach (Baile Mhullach in modern Gaelic) (The farm at the summit or summits)

    Balrymonth (Fife) > Baile Rìmhinn > Baile Rìghmhonadh (The farm on the royal moor’. See St Andrews above)

    Bassaguard (Fife) > Baile an t-Sagairt (The priest’s farm)

    Cairngate (Fife) > Càrn nan Cat, Càrn na gCat (Cairn of the cats)

    Cairns (Fife) > Ceàrnais (Corner place)

    Callyons (Fife) > Coillean (Small wood)

    Craiglumphard (Fife) > Creag / Longphort (The rock at the encampment)

    Crail, earlier Caraile (Fife) > Cair Ail (Fort at the rock) (shows Pictish borrowing into Gaelic of ‘Cair’)

    St Andrew’s (Fife) > Cill Rìmhinn > Cinn Rìmhinn (End of royal moor)

    Etc. Etc.

    Auchencorth (Mid L.) > Achadh na Coirthe (Field with the standing stone)

    Balbardie (West L.) > Baile a’ Bhàird (The poet’s farm”, or perhaps ‘The meadow farm’)

    Balgone (East L.) > Baile nan Con, earlier spelling Baile na gCon (Farm of the dogs)

    Balgorney (West L) > Baile Gronnaigh (Miry farm)

    Ballencrieff (East L, West L) > Baile na Craoibhe (Farm by the tree)

    Barbauchlaw (East L) > Baile Bachlach (Farm of the crozier)

    Broxburn, earlier Easter Strathbroc (West L) > Srath Broc (Badger srath)

    Cockenzie (East L) > Cùil Choinnich (Kenneth’s secluded spot)

    Colzium (Mid L) > Cuingleum (Narrow leap)

    Craigengall (West L) > Creag nan Gall (Rock of the nan-Gaels)

    Craigentinny (Mid L) > Creag an t-Sionnaich (Rock of the fox)

    Drumbowie (West L) > An Druim Buidhe (The yellow ridge)

    Ecclesmachan (West L) > Eaglais Mhachain (St Machan’s Church)

    Echline (West L) > Eachlann (Horse paddock)

    Edinburgh (Mid L) > Dùn Èideann, cognate with Brythonic Din Eidyn (Eidyn’s fort)(Pre-English language name)

    Inch (Mid L) > Innis (Meadow/ island)

    Kinneil (West L) > Ceann an Fhàil (End of the dyke, ie Antonine’s Wall)

    Torphin (MidL) > An Tòrr Fionn (The white hill)

    Etc Etc.

  27. Brian Doonthetoon

    The whole “freeport” con appears to be a furtheration
    (is that a word?) of the SE of England’s attempt to control the idea of “Capital Expoitation”.

    We, the Scots. should control our assets, not capitalists at Canary Wharf.

  28. Ian Brotherhood

    It’s great to see Wings hosting such a vibrant debate about the cultural case for independence.

    Certainly appears to be generating more interest and discussion than anything to do with ‘the environment’.

  29. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 10:03 pm

    “Any evidence that Freeport’s are being imposed “agin oor will”?”

    Freeports are an English Tory policy so I guess if you are a Tory voter then you are ok with it, although 80% of people in Scotland did not vote for it. A bit like brexit then, or any Tory ideology which is imposed on Scots against their will.

    Changed your view on Scotland’s colonial reality yet? I note Kenny MacAskill has:

  30. Derek

    Tag team’s working, I see.

  31. James Barr Gardner

    The Dalrymple Family, Viscounts an’ awe were part of the Parcel O’Rogues in a Nation. They were an avaricious family and today still possess gains from over 400 years ago.

    Bought and paid for in English gelt, Yoonist Scot Butts fer sure !

    Guess who owns the Bass Rock ?

    Guess when the got it ?

    Guess who gave it to them ?

    Guess how much they paid for it ?

  32. Alf Baird

    Ian Brotherhood @ 11:13 pm

    “the cultural case for independence”

    Nae prablem Ian, here it is:

    And as Frantz Fanon said: “the struggle ‘to re-establish the sovereignty of any nation constitutes the most complete and obvious cultural manifestation that exists’.”

  33. SteepBrae

    Ian Brotherhood 11.13pm
    “It’s great to see Wings hosting such a vibrant debate about the cultural case for independence”.

    It is, Ian. The cultural case is vital, as is education. Just found this link while looking through the website about MacDiarmid’s cottage:

    Lesson plans for secondary school pupils;

  34. Cameron Robson

    I took a course in NC Celtic Studies at Newbattle Abbey, 2018-19, and the Gaelic Lecturer there listed and explained the Gaelic derived place names that existed in Edinburgh and Lothian. My own research revealed that even the South East of Scotland, Dumfries and Galloway, and North East Northumbria were Gaelic speaking at one time.


    Scottish Nationalism is Cultural or it is Nothing.
    That is why the SNP has served up to the hungry the cauld kale of zilch.
    The founders of national independence movements understood the dynamic of «culture» in their struggles. Economics etc just does not cut to the core of the matter.
    Scotland does not need a «case» for restoring what is a basic right, popular sovereignty for the citizens of its historic lands.


    Place names are indicators of occupation that is why «incomers» need to change them.
    Culture is politics, politics is culture.

  37. Captain Yossarian

    TURBADIN – “popular sovereignty for the citizens of its historic lands” – I have no problem with Nationalists and those that contribute on here especially. I respect your position. However, you need to do a hell of a lot better than this, because this argument will get you nowhere. Sure, it can be tagged on to the back of the main argument and no Scotsman or woman will ignore it, but you need to offer up a risk free better future for all of us. Otherwise, no-one’s interested. Take a look at Holyrood – has it been a success and do you want to be governed by Holyrood? That has more relevance to more Scots than “historic lands” has.


    «but you need to offer up a risk free better future for all of us. Otherwise, no-one’s interested»
    There is I believe an old saw which goes something like nothing worth while in life is ever risk free.
    The belt and braces, 100% insurance cover which is the characteristic of the current SNP has ended in stasis. There has to be a break with the old dispensation. Whether that is easy or «dramatic» very much depends on the mood of the times. Judging by the current mood the UK establishment seems prepared for drama; a bare knuckle fight according to one insider voice.
    Be ready to write the script or leave the stage to others with the requisite «flair».

  39. SteepBrae

    TURABDIN is right – it shouldn’t need a ‘case’. A greater awareness of our culture and what’s being lost are necessary though and there are umpteen ways to raise that awareness.

    Waste of time hoping for ‘risk free’ mind ye. Life’s not like that. Anywhere.

  40. Johnlm

    Still no response to my request for the Uncle Tommys to give us their ‘vision’ of Scotland’s future remaining with the UK.

  41. Robert Hughes

    ” …. but you need to offer up a risk free better future for all of us. ”

    Risk free ! How they hell can anyone , ever , credibly offer that ?
    That´s akin to some TV Evangelist offering a place amongst the * saved * for those gullible/desperate enough to believe it .

    Life= Risk . Without it nothing would be done and – as we´ve seen , repeatedly – the equating of risk with threat is the tried and tested strategy of those for whom the status quo is the desired condition .

  42. Republicofscotland

    “You mean Great Britain’s Labour Party,”

    Nope, I mean the English Labour party which as the Electoral Commission has pointed out, uses a (OIM) Optional Identity Mark in Scotland.

  43. Republicofscotland

    Horsebox Mike Russell comments.

    “Let’s start with splits. It has been clear for a while that there is a strain of nationalism that is passionately anti-Green.”

    Yes there is Mike, but there’s also a strain of SNP “Nationalism” that is vehemently anti-independence and anti-Alba.

    The current SNP appears in most part to have both.

  44. Jacqueline

    Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh
    Thank you Fearghas.
    Would you post more please.
    My grandparents were from South Ayrshire and spoke a mix of Gaelic and Scots. Sadly I’ve mostly forgotten the Gael. Scant few use our language anymore. Even pronunciation has changed. All english and American. Our culture,where language is vital, is being wiped out at a frightening rate of knots.
    Don’t know if Stu will pass this post. He seems to be taking a holiday allowing effing morons to post adinfinitum

  45. John Main

    @Alf Baird 11:13

    That’s poor “logic” from you – soz.

    Sure, freeports are a Tory idea. But it does not logically follow that because few Scots vote Tory, most Scots are axiomatically opposed to all Tory policies.

    I asked you for evidence that freeports are being imposed “agin oor will”. Your best reply is that freeports are being set up without our explicit support.

    Not the same thing at all, and you know that.

    Any idea what Starmer’s take on freeports is? He will be calling the shots soon. I wonder if freeports will be another idea that “nobody wants” that will persist indefinitely through future government after future government.

  46. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    Cameron Robson writes (8.24am): “[…] My own research revealed that even the South East of Scotland, Dumfries and Galloway, and North East Northumbria were Gaelic speaking at one time.”
    I would in that connection draw attention to the highly important new book:

    GALLOWAY:THE LOST PROVINCE OF GAELIC SCOTLAND (Edited by Michael Ansell, Ronald Black & Edward J Cowan, John Dewar Publishers Ltd, 2022).

    Professor Donald Meek endorses it thus:

    “This ground-breaking book addresses the challenges of salvaging the wider Gaelic dimension of Galloway, and sheds brilliant beams of light on the ‘lost’ Gaelic cultural heritage of the region…It ‘catches the moment’ by assembling a splendid team of present-day scholars of the highest calibre…I would regard it as one of the most important Gaelic ‘recovery projects’ of my lifetime.”

  47. akenaton

    I struggle to think of any proper “culture” in my native land, cave dwellers turned warring bands controlled by robber barons.
    Religion and the colonial era brought some sort of faux respect and resulted in better living conditions, but in later times we seem to rely on our warlike nature and our love of death and glory against “Johnny foreigner”
    As western society continues to decline we have fallen back on that old stand bye sectarianism and our Flodden’s and Culloden’s are now conducted on the sports field by woke warriors representing themselves and multi national interests.

    The Captain is spot on, we need to drop the pretence of National greatness at any time in our history, and give the unarmed population something they can really believe in, or even understand will bring them some semblance of prosperity.

  48. John Main

    Innarestin that anybody should equate us Sovereign Scots with risk takers.

    Didn’t we recently vote to stay in our EU comfort zone?

    Isn’t our current wee pretendy government settled on the policy that if we ever do get our Independence back, after 300+ years, top of the agenda will be giving it up again for Brussels rule?

    Naw, we are stereotypically NOT risk takers. We are stereotypically small ‘c’ conservatives, who value thrift. We’re grippy – anything we have, we are reluctant to give it up. We are descended from all those Scots who were not risk takers – being careful is in our genes.

    Those Scots who were risk takers upped and left in the great Scottish colonising diaspora. Of course, as the preferred world view on here is to deny that ever happened, it follows that most will have the wrong idea about our national attitude to risk.

    We’re descended from the stay-at-homes. To win us over, we need to be shown the post-Indy money.

    TBQH, I would have expected this message, that revenge for Culloden, and the chance to have all road signs replaced with place names in Scots, is not resonating with enough Sovereign Scots to be worthwhile pursuing.

    But naw. It’s a mystery. All these posters dedicated to our culture and nation, who don’t understand what it is that makes us Sovereign Scots tick!

  49. Captain Yossarian

    TURABDIN – Look at Brexit. It has turned into a right mess hasn’t it? It has made us look small and insular in the world. That experience has left a mark on the psyche of all Scots meaning that when a referendum is put before them again, they will want to be very, very sure that they are voting for something that promises a better life. When things are getting worse, year on year, that is when we look to history and what that may tend to tell us is that Holyrood has been a failure.

  50. John Main

    Alf Baird

    Thanks for the link to Kenny MacAskill on GrouseBeater. Here’s a wee quote:

    “as Scotland came into the union for economic reasons, it’s economic reasons that now dictate why we should leave”.

    My my, michty me, who’d a thunk it.

    Fit’s that ye’re speirin Kenny, show us the money?

  51. Beauvais

    akenaton @10:09 am

    “I struggle to think of any proper “culture” in my native land… ”

    The bardic schools of Gaelic poetry produced work of sophistication. I would say that was proper culture.

  52. johnlm

    akenaton @10.09

    Cheer up, dear.

  53. Republicofscotland

    “Didn’t we recently vote to stay in our EU comfort zone?”


    What do you mean by we?

    I get the distinct impression by your comments over time that you are as Scottish and for independence as much as Chas and ASA are, and we know they are neither of them.

  54. fruitella the hun

    “But Scotland attempting to solve climate change with renewables and harebrained policy initiatives is like a toddler trying to put out a house fire by crying on it – it won’t work, it’s embarrassing to watch and you’ll likely end up with a charred kid as well as a burnt-down house.”

    But it ain’t nuclear either…

    We don’t control the supply of fuel, which often comes from the more politically unstable parts of the world

    Because it’s a dangerous process it requires very expensive technology, and technologists
    It is hugely expensive to decommission after its lifespan, which is approximately 30 to 40 years.

    The waste it produces in normal operation has to be isolated from the biosphere for at least hundreds and, for some waste elements, many thousands of years. There is no cheap and cheerful way of doing this.

    During war it becomes a hostage to your enemies missiles and artillery. The power it produces needs to be shut down just in case, putting massive pressure on all those people and other defence infrastructure dependent on it.

    If there is an accident on the consequences are biologically huge and financially ruinous
    But the biggest reason, its biggest flaw, is that it gives control of the energy supply for the dependent population to a small group of people who either own the plant or own the the politicians (if it’s nationalised).

    Good-hearted authoritarians naively imagine their control systems will be administered by plaster saints with neither corrupt impulses or greedy appetites of any kind. Your bog-standard authoritarian isn’t so dumb. It is the dictators’ golden goose.

    Everyday people who can breenge through all these concerns when confronted and still want to get their electricty from nuclear power well deserve the term “stupid”.

    The only justification that stands up is the reactor’s ability to produce fissile material for bombs.

  55. Alf Baird

    Captain Yossarian @ 8:45 am

    “I have no problem with Nationalists”

    What about ‘imperial nationalists’, i.e. those who impose their nationalism on other peoples/cultures?

    A colonized people only become nationalists in order to reclaim their sovereignty from the imperial nationalists who have stolen it from them. That is why self-determination nationalism is regarded as ‘defensive nationalism’.

    On the other hand ‘imperial nationalism’ is by its nature aggressive and violent nationalism. That is why imperialism is described as ‘geographic violence’ and colonialism as ‘force’.

    Which brings us back to the root of colonialism, which is fascism; and the fascist is always looking to inflict punishment on those he has procured, especially whenever ‘colonialism is imperiled’.

  56. Sven

    Captain Yossarian @ 10.51.

    For me, what Holyrood (for which I did not vote … when did another level of politicians ever solve a problem) was working pretty well 2007-2014.
    In fact, this pensioner felt that Scotland was managing to achieve a good, competent level of governance under Mr Salmond’s tenure as First Minister.
    That this changed entirely when the sociopathic Ms Sturgeon took over I freely grant. However, the failure of the administrators is always potentially present with any system of government.
    I doubt that History will look back upon recent administrations at Westminster any more kindly than at Holyrood circa 2014-2023.

  57. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 11:01 am

    “show us the money”

    Yes, colonialism is primarily about economic plunder and on this aspect you may think you are on the right track. However, plunder within a colonial system is always dependent on colonial racism, where the native culture is debased, and the system (and its institutions) is built upon the cultural gap created between the colonized and the colonizer. This invented cultural gap is what Memmi termed the ‘colonial hoax’. Ignoring the critical cultural aspects of colonial oppression is where your argument falls down.

    On Tory Freeports, Scots might expect London Labour to rubber stamp any and all Tory policies as far as Scotland’s ongoing economic plunder is concerned, as both parties do on most matters to do with their core purpose: to protect the ‘integrity’ of the British state, including decisions on war or peace, and of course in pro-actively preventing Scottish independence.

  58. Captain Yossarian

    Alf – I am a non-combatant. I have worked in a few locations around the world and that gives you a slightly different view. The same characteristics are seen in people from all Nationalities. I worked in Libya for a few years and that was a country that was cut-off from the rest of the world for decades and yet the same characteristics were present.

    Frankly, when you talk about colonialism, I fail to understand what you are talking about. In Libya for example, there were the Gadaffi loyalists versus those that hated Gadaffi and we all know how disastrously that turned-out in the end. Some people say that it was always going to happen, but I lived there at the time and it was a shock to me and it didn’t need to happen.

    So, what I am saying is that just now, there is no animosity towards England and England has no animosity towards us and that is the way it should remain.

    Finally, I do believe that all of these folk that represent us at Holyrood should think about that and start just doing their jobs. Perhaps then, we would all respect them a lot more than we appear to do just now. The country will be led for the next 3-years by Humza Yousaf and Patrick Harvie – does that fill anyone with optimism? That’s the real problem, isn’t it.

  59. John Main

    @RoS 11:25

    I get the distinct impression by your comments over time that you know as near to SFA as makes no difference.

  60. Johnlm

    Show us the money if we stay in the UK?

  61. John Main

    @fruitella the hun 11:28

    Your arguments against naively allowing a narrow group total control of our power generation facilities are sound.

    Alas, and it’s bad news for greens, the same arguments apply to public transport. All exhortations for us to ditch our cars and travel by train, for example, founder when alert readers see the rail system endlessly paralysed by strikes.

    Incidentally, your statement that a nuclear accident has huge biological consequences is flawed due to its anthropocentric slant. The environs of Chernobyl are now recognised as the most diverse and biologically rich in Europe.

    Turns out that all nature needs to thrive is complete absence of humans. An irradiated landscape without people is still better for wildlife than a pristine landscape with humans in it. The issues that bother us civilised humans about radiation, birth defects and cancers, are by and large irrelevant in nature. Animals always produce excess offspring in the expectation some won’t reach maturity. Radiation induced cancers cull animals past the age at which they will already have reproduced.

    I’m not saying the best hope for the environment is nuclear war, but plenty of extreme greens are already saying it, so I don’t have to!

  62. Tinto Chiel

    @Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh 10.08: yes, that book on Galloway and its Gaelic history is fascinating.

    I couldn’t locate Michael Ansell’s recent, excellent illustrated talk on the subject but this isn’t bad:

    Of course, one of the main reasons that many parts of Scotland lack old records of original names (as mentioned in the lecture) is the destruction of documents by various foreign invaders, Edward I being perhaps the most fanatical in trying to erase us as a nation and culture.

  63. Oneliner

    The ‘money’ was more than adequately described in the McCrone report.

  64. John Main

    @Alf Baird 12:01

    I don’t think it’s only my argument that is falling down then.

    I pointed out that Kenny MacAskill is now stating that the case for Indy is primarily an economic one. That was a direct quote from Kenny at 11:01.

    Me and Kenny want us Scots to be better off post-Indy.

    You perhaps are relaxed about that aspiration, in that you can take it or leave it, but you defo want us to be speaking and writing in Scots.

    I think Kenny has more of a finger on the pulse of what makes us Sovereign Scots tick. As a politician, he perhaps has a more grounded view on what will inspire us to get out and vote.

    Last, but a long way from being least, Scotland is hoaching with New Scots voters who are likely to be responsive to the prospects of financial inducements, and likely to be unmoved by arguments about culture.

    They already have their own cultures, and they won’t be interested in giving these up.

  65. ABruce

    Is Chris awy on his holidays?

  66. Beauvais

    Captain Yossarian @12:02 pm

    The colonizer has hit the jackpot when most of the colonized deny there is a colonial situation.

    Scots and Welsh are full British citizens whilst remaining colonized. The British citizenship and occasional concessions beguile many Scots and Welsh into assuming that they are not colonised subjects. Yet we are. If we were not colonized then Scotland would have open ended agreement from Westminster to hold a binding indyref whenever, and as often as, we wish.

    There have been times during the colonial era – or the union, to give it its illusory name – when a strong majority of Scots denied Scotland’s subjection. However, the 2014 referendum, with its 45% indy vote, terrified the colonial government. They had assumed they could batter it down over a 2 year campaign to around 20%.

    Far from Scotland “staying and leading the union”, as was ridiculously promised by the colonizer during that campaign, we have been subjected further to humiliation with the connivance of Sturgeon’s native and corrupt colonial administration. The SNP’s faux outrage at Scotland’s forced removal from the EU was mere tawdry theatre. That forced removal being ultimate proof that Scotland is a subject, and therefore colonized, nation.

  67. Northcode

    I’ve been looking at examples of how humour can be used in the presentation of rhetorical arguments.

    The use of humour in rhetoric can be very effective, but it’s sometimes a dangerous tactic to use when trying to persuade an audience to support an argument.

    If humour is used incorrectly, even unintentionally or inadvertently, an argument can be utterly destroyed in favour of an opponent’s argument and, additionally, leave one open to accusations of bigotry, prejudice and racism.

    For instance, I came across an interesting online article that said this about a certain kind of ‘humour’:

    Disparagement humor is any attempt to amuse through the denigration of a social group or its representatives. You know it as sexist or racist jokes – basically anything that makes a punchline out of a marginalized group.

    Disparagement humor is paradoxical: It simultaneously communicates two conflicting messages.

    One is an explicit hostile or prejudiced message. But delivered alongside is a second implicit message that “it doesn’t count as hostility or prejudice because I didn’t mean it — it’s just a joke.”

    By disguising expressions of prejudice in a cloak of fun and frivolity, disparagement humor appears harmless and trivial. However, a large and growing body of psychology research suggests just the opposite – that disparagement humor can foster discrimination against targeted groups.

    For prejudiced people, the belief that “a disparaging joke is just a joke” trivializes the mistreatment of historically oppressed social groups…

    from an online article – ‘Psychology behind the unfunny consequences of jokes that denigrate’

    So, humour – be careful when using it to present an argument, opinion or view; because sometimes…humour is no joke.

  68. fruitella the hun

    John Main: “ is flawed due to its anthropocentric slant”

    The ecological outlook I proffer is anthropocentric. It’s a communist line of attacK that “greens” don’t care about people. It may be true for some on the fringes – same for all parties and movements. In fact there is some evidence that the tories are mainly that but with a fringe that does care. In power, communists seem to be much the same – all about the struggle then defending the revolution. Bad times for non-party members.

    Mind you, there are plenty people I don’t care for.

    I’m doubtful about rail. It is too vulnerable to sabotage of one kind or another for one reason or another. I have a car (two, in fact, till I get one welded and sold)

    Destroying nature because human “needs” are thought paramount is THE stupidest thing humans do. Our freedom and sense of joy is best protected by non-destructive engagement with nature (as far as possible), in my experience.

  69. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Captain Yossarian,

    I too worked in Libya in the 1980s.

    One of the things that surprised me was that the country was a hell of a lot more democratic than anything we in the UK have.

    Their equivalent if MPs, called Delegates, set up a green baise table and a few chairs on a street corner in their constituency and discussed political and economic matters with their constituents in the open. That would never happen in an independent Scotland. That’s for sure.

    Yes, political parties were banned, but in North Africa’s heavily tribal society there was a good reason for that. Every Delegate and prospective Delegate had to account for themselves personally and publically.

    There was none of this tribal crap of the Scots versus the English or SNP versus Alba. Or the Gaels against the lowland Scots.

    They had the highest literacy rate in the whole of Africa and the best NHS on that continent too. Until the economic warfare against the country by you know who, things got better every year, year on year.

    The American Empire never forgave the Libyans for turfing the Empire out of Wheelus AFB which as the biggest military base in the whole of Africa, when Britain’s puppet King Idris was overthrown in a popular revolution. To this day, America’s Africa Command is based in Germany, not in Africa at all. That surely stings in the Pentagon and the State Department.

    The poodle and heavily politicised Scottish legal system conspired with their American masters to punish and convict (in that order) the Libyan people for the PA103 atrocity which was quite certainly committed by Iran and the PFLP-GC and not Libya at all.

    Other than that MSP woman with the scatty hairdo whose name I can’t quite remember right now, no part of the Holyrood mob has done anything at all to contradict the perverse verdict of the Zeist showtrial.

    That is certainly not the case in Scotland under the grim aegis of the SNP.

    It’s sad that a political party which professes to wish to deviate from London’s line on major things has done absolutely nothing whatsoever to right the wrong that has been done against Libya.

    The lickspittle Lord Advocates and Scottish “Justice” Ministers continue to support the lie that it woz Libya wot dunnit.

    A bloody disgrace!

  70. Anton Decadent

    @Alf Baird

    I read up on every single person you namedrop on here. Those whom you reference the most are all dead and are a mix of black/brown nationalists and/or Marxists and Jewish academics and one of those who are alive and active you recently referenced belongs to the latter category. On looking him up I found that he travels around Western academia lecturing on the dangers of national identity in central and eastern European countries. He co authors a periodical on this theme with another Jewish academic who also travels around the Western academic circuit lecturing on the dangers of nationalism and ethno politics. Their periodical is partnered with another based in Columbia University in New York State, a base of The Frankfurt School, and awards an annual Joseph Rothschild Prize.

    One of the people whom you regularly quote, Frantz Fanon, drew an intersectionality of victimhood between blacks and jews. I have spent a great deal of time amongst people who feel the same way and it is a toxic environment of open anti white racism. I know for a fact that not all jews feel this way, one I knew had been involved in setting up the place I am referencing here and was extremely disappointed at what it had turned into whereas others I know keep their heads down because it would damage their livelihood to speak up. This place is a publicly funded registered charity. Re the coalition of angry jews and blacks/browns in the place I mention Roma are also deified as blameless victims there.

    Re Frantz Fanon, he advocated violence to free any colonised culture in which violence had been used by the colonisers. The area of Glasgow which I am from and live in meets that description and I have had acts of unprovoked violence carried out against me by the colonisers. The response of the police was negligible, does this mark them as a colonial police force and if I was to use violence against the colonisers and their support structure in the police, politics, the media, publishing, law, academia, social services, social housing and health would you support this?

    As I type this I have a drum and whistle band directly outside my house marching with children under the trans flag.

  71. John Main

    @Beauvais 12:57

    I was quite unaware of “Scotland’s forced removal from the EU”.

    I did notice that the UK left the EU, after a UK-wide vote which asked every UK citizen if the UK should stay in, or should the UK leave.

    I am guessing that you suffer from the common delusion on here: you want Scotland to be Independent, and thus you view everything through a prism shaped from your belief that Scotland is already Independent.

    But we’re not Independent, we are still very much part of the UK.

    Your delusion not only causes a continually warped view of reality, as exampled by the “dragged out of the EU against our will” trope. It leads to a lack of focus and effort on what it will take to get Indy.

    That lack of focus and effort started when AS stepped down. It’s not going to restart until Indy supporters begin to accept the reality of Scotland’s political and economic position and plan/build from there.

  72. James Che

    It is a interesting scenario, that when analysing what is wrong with union and how the overall political treaty turned very quickly Colonisation of Scotland by the presumption of Englands old government,

    It is as much attitude, maybe more so than anything else it was attitude that corrupted the union, to make it untenable, because the governing bodies down south did not view it as a political union between Countries at all,
    It was view down south as a take over instantly,
    I believe there is a quote about holding and grasping Scotland tightly,

    What is obvious from comments here is that unionist even today have that same backward mentality, and are unable to see it as it was supposed to be, a equal union,
    And throttle the life out of Scotland wishing to stay in that union, because the grasp is so tight it is destructive and killing Scots and Scotland.

    It is sac but true that modern day unionist still think in a old empire squeeze and control fashion.
    It is also sad that they think because Scotland has “cause” to hate the union that Scots hate all English people and unionist alway bring it Down to to if you hate the English government you hate English people,

    The two do not automatically go hand in hand, many a man in england is being squeezed and throttled to death by the nature of their controlling Westminster government as well as Welsh people.

    There is always a odd person on both sides of the border that acts etremist in their hatred of the other nation,
    And government loves to grow this animosity and develope it to play one nation against the other for control and usage of the people,

    No man metaphiorically speaking either side of the border would enjoy the land being stolen from under their or their financial resources taken from them,

    When I think of unionist with their shit stirring hatred for Scots, Welsh, Irish, or even the rest of England on this site for Scottish, Welsh, or Irish independence I do not automatically think of the ordinary man or Women in these Countries
    I relate that controlling hatred as coming from those unionist, more to do with a assortment of governing bodies of the the establishments whom have a financial dog with a investments bone in Scotland and the other Countries that would crumble if Scotland or any of the other Countries went independent,

    So to define it better from my personal point of view, when I speak of England it is of those with a vested interest in keeping Scotland and Scots under tight control for their own personal reasons,

    And it is that selection of unionist that fight the hardest with hatred and animosity on here so as not to loose their personal financial grasp and gains of Scotlands resources that turn it into a chant you hate the English as a weapon to retain their old financial empire.

    Because if you have nothing to loose, no ego or money ,
    you have no skin in the game,
    And the Colonial grasp desperately and financially holding on to all these Countries and nations would be a open palm of release,

    It is all about the money and the ego,

  73. Captain Yossarian

    Ebenezer Scroggie – Libya was a wonderful country and it had everything going for it. It was consumed within a few months by a rabble of delinquents and there is a lesson in that for everyone.

    I was building one of 16No new universities which were all under construction at the same time. Mine was in a fabulous place called Sabratha, which is about 40 miles from Tripoli. It was to be for the new generation of Libyan engineers.

    It was the best experience of my working life and as you say, in some ways the country was more democratic than Scotland is. The situation there just now is needless and so desperately sad because the population was motivated and all that they needed was honest leadership.

  74. Johnlm

    Scroggie confuses me. One post he likes Empire building, the next he’s agin it.
    His racist view that Scots are incapable of democracy.
    Holyrood is to blame but is controlled by Washington.

    Another yoonatic.

  75. Johnlm

    “The first time Yossarian saw the chaplain Scroggie he fell madly in love with him”
    -Joseph Heller (with apologies)

  76. Republicofscotland

    The Keystone Cops, aka Police Scotland, and the COPFS not doing their job properly as usual.

    “AN MP has written to Police Scotland to ask whether there are plans to conduct an independent review into an incident which saw a 54-year-old woman assaulted during a gender critical protest in Aberdeen.

    Now, Alba MP Neale Hanvey has written to Police Scotland Deputy Chief Constable Jane Connors to ask why the matter was not referred to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) for prosecution.

    “There has been an understandable level of concern from the public that such an assault took place at all,” wrote Hanvey.

    “However, what is most alarming is the apparent dismissal of the matter by Police Scotland and the failure to prepare charges and refer the matter to the COPFS for consideration.

    “To anyone who holds concerns about violence being perpetrated against women and girls this decision is inexplicable, alarming and wholly inadequate and is comprehensively in conflict with the espoused strategic position of Police Scotland as established in March 2023.””

  77. Northcode

    James Che @4th Aug 5:34pm

    I suspect my Spouses language of the north east may be as old as the hills and plains, that north east Scots first roamed, And is not corrupted slang English

    The Scots have been led to believe that their own language is a corruption of ‘standard English’, but that’s a lie. A lie promulgated for reasons we all are now well aware of.

    Like any national language anywhere in the world there will be regional variations within a country; regional dialects peculiar to specific areas of that country.

    I’m not a linguist and the academic complexities of language structure and development are beyond ma ken. But from what I’ve been reading about the Scots language it’s clear that its origins are ancient and diverse.

    I’m reading another book titled ‘Scandinavian Influence on Southern Lowland Scotch (not a fan of this term for Scots but that’s the title), a contribution to the Study of the Linguistic Relations of English and Scandinavian by George Tobias Flom, B.L., A.M. sometime fellow in German, Columbia university.

    The Scots have not been taught their own language for many generations and as Alf Baird says, Scots is a rustit language.

    I think what Alf means by ‘rustit’ is whereas the languages of healthy, non-colonised nations are dynamic; that they are alive and constantly growing and changing, Scots, although it is still alive, hasn’t developed as it normally would have if it hadn’t been deliberately suppressed.

    What I’m beginning to realise is that the language of the Scots and its history and development is a complex area of study.

    I have little Gaelic – my mother and grandparents were fluent, tho sadly never passed it to me – but my understanding is that Scandinavian Influence on Scots Gaelic was not insignificant either. Others more knowledgeable of Gaelic might be better placed to advise on this.

    However, there seems to be quite a few resources available to those modern Scots linguists actively working to bring Scots back into the mainstream of Scottish life.

    The Scottish National Dictionary, the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue, and Jamieson’s Dictionary of Scots to name a few.

    Jamieson says:

    Many of our nation, not only in the higher, but even in the middle, ranks of life, now affect to despise all the terms or phrases peculiar to their country, as gross vulgarisms.

    This childish fastidiousness is unknown not only to intelligent foreigners, but to the learned in South Britain.

    Well assured that the peasantry are the living depositaries of the ancient language of every country, they regard their phraseology nearly in the same light in which they would view that of a foreign people.

    Reverend Dr John Jamieson

    And this from a more contemporary source:

    There was a Scots orthography before ‘standard English’ was given a name;

    Given the centrality to the Scottish literary tradition of literature in Scots, and the continuing popular interest in using Scots in and beyond literature, it is legitimate to question how literacy in Scots might be promoted.

    In principle, there seems no reason why a modified basal speller system should not support enhanced literacy in Scots. With digital technology, a corpus of Modern Scots texts would need to be selected as a corpus on which a broad literacy in Scots – or, alternatively, a particular local variety of Scots – would be based.

    The urge to communicate more widely constrains the impulse to retain individual and community identity.

    This dilemma will not disappear in the twenty-first century; rather, new technologies and novel means of both writing Scots and analysing orthographic systems will add further layers to an already complex narrative.

    Extracts from Spelling Scots – The Orthography of Literary Scots, 1700–2000 by Jennifer Bann and John Corbett. Edinburgh University Press.

    More info on the Scots language here: Scots Language Centre

  78. sam

    @ John Main

    “I wonder if freeports will be another idea that “nobody wants” that will persist indefinitely through future government after future government.”

    You mean like PFI, the Poll Tax, raising employment tribunal fees to £1200 (ended when deemed to be illegal), the Stamp Act in the colony of America?

  79. Beauvais

    John Main @2:24 pm

    “I was quite unaware of “Scotland’s forced removal from the EU”” .

    What beautiful euphemism would you give it then John?

  80. Sven

    RepublicofScotland @ 15.03

    I have the terrible, sinking feeling that, in this deplorable instance, the national state Police have, in fact, performed their duties correctly.
    The Police Scotland Act states, I believe, that the Police are the servants of Procurators Fiscal, and must therefore act within the guidelines laid down by the Crown Office or, in some cases, individual Fiscals.
    I strongly suspect that Mr Hanvey will discover that guidelines issued by the Lord Advocate have been complied with by Police Scotland, whose hands would be tied by any such guidelines.

  81. Republicofscotland

    Labour a distinctly English party is telling it (OIM) Optional Identity Mark in Scotland (Scottish Labour which does not exist its an OIM of London Labour) its MSPs in a foreign country Scotland to say they will reject privatisation in Margaret Ferrier’s ex-constituency, whilst London is saying something different.

    This foreign Labour party is trying to fool Scots into voting for it by lying to them.

    “SCOTTISH Labour’s by-election candidate in Rutherglen and Hamilton West has been challenged to “reject NHS privatisation” after being pictured alongside shadow health secretary Wes Streeting.

    Streeting has repeatedly made clear that, if Labour win the next UK General Election, they would use private companies to tackle NHS waiting lists. “

  82. Northcode


    Just in case you were wondering, I haven’t forgotten your request for my take on the rhetorical figure of Adianoeta.

    I’ll get around to it soon.

  83. Republicofscotland


    That may well be the case but I’ll add this from the story.

    “Hanvey then queries whether there are plans for independent review into the incident and asks that his letter be treated as a Freedom of Information request for the “full disclosure” of the guidelines which led to the perpetrator receiving a warning instead of being referred for prosecution.

    Women Won’t Wheesht passed video of the incident onto the police and last month said the footage would be released to the public “in due course” – although this has yet to occur.

    The group told The National that the footage had not yet been released because they are requesting that the police reconsider the decision to hand over a Recorded Police Warning.”

    We do know that the COPFS played its part, in the prosecution of Craig Murray, the attempted prosecutions of Mark Hirst and David Lewellyn, and then of course their was attempted prosecution of Alex Salmond, not to mention an Mi5 agent within the office (Just the one who knows?)

    There is much more I could say about our corrupt judiciary, police and crown office, not to mention our politicians, but I’ll leave that up to this guy, and this guys pretty good as well.

  84. Beauvais


    No rush Northcode. Good things are worth waiting for.

  85. Alf Baird

    John Main says:
    5 August, 2023 at 12:43 pm

    “Scotland is hoaching with New Scots voters…They already have their own cultures, and they won’t be interested in giving these up.”

    Indeed, that is what we see as the oppressors plan evolves and the colonial corset tightens. Which reflects the far higher significance of culture in this matter over a few dollars more/less, as I and others have pointed out to you.

    And as Albert Memmi said, independence “is a matter only for the colonized”. Oor daeless ‘Civic Nationalism’ politicians have clearly still to figure this out; they still think liberation is also about the settler population, the latter holding to other cultures, identities, and values.

    Hence Fanon’s reference to the ‘rudimentary understanding’ of national party elites who have ‘never undertaken a reasoned study of colonial society’.

  86. Ebenezer Scroggie


    I’m neither “for” nor “against” the history of the British Empire.

    I simply recognise the significant role which so many Scotsmen (a disproportionate number, actually) played in it.

    As ever, I don’t take sides. I observe and consider.

    Actually, I actively dislike that tribalistic crap.

  87. twathater

    @ John 2.43pm , like you i am confused with scroggies inconsistencies , but there again I am not because I find that most Scots Buts can actually see the glaring hypocrisy they post here and elsewhere but their cowering cringe won’t allow them to acknowledge it , so therefore everything in Scotland is bad and incompetent but engerland is the ultimate imperial master and excels at everything

    Him and ArSA are now trying to build a unionist clique within Scotland’s most read and informed independence blog , 1st recruit is yossa the former???? labour voter who is unsure whether he supports independence or not but who thinks the uk govt are less of a threat to Scotland

  88. Sven
    says: @ 15.43

    Thanks for that additional backstory, RoS, appreciated.
    It has always seemed to me a supreme irony that both Mr Salmond and Mr MacKaskill were the authors behind the creation of the national state Police, ever keen to centralise control. Little anticipating how the politicisation of what had been an admirable justice system in Scotland for centuries would be weaponised against Mr Salmond himself (the prosecution itself was real enough) as well as others, some of whom you mention.

  89. Ebenezer Scroggie

    It wasn’t the people of Dumfriesshire or of Banff & Buchan or Rutland or Cornwall or Shetland, or of any other cluster of shires and counties, who left the EU in a democratic manner.

    It was the people of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (+Gibraltar) who were members of the EU; and who democratically voted to leave it.

    Those who have sense of humour, of any tribe, might like a Youtube video called 17 million fuc*k offs.

  90. Captain Yossarian

    Twatheter – I don’t vote for anyone nowadays.

    I agree with a lot of what Scroggie has said but I also agree with a lot of what Dan has said. Both are opposites politically but they are good contributors and I tend to look out for their posts.

    It is people like me that you could convert, but you don’t do that by attacking us.

    WoS is a forum for debate, not everyone will agree, and it’s best not to get too personal about it, because that just spoils the fun.

  91. Northcode

    Looks like we indigenous Scots are originally from ancient Egypt. Every one of us descendants of the great Pharaohs no less.

    According to the ancient Scots Chronicles the origin of the Scottish people, at least in part, derives from the Pharaonic lineage of an Egyptian princess named Scota, who may have lived around 1400 B. C.

    There were two Egyptian kings, called by the Greeks Nectanabis (Nexrwaftis) , and as Scota, the fabulous mother of all Scots, appears as daughter of Pharaoh Nectonibus, and the Scots are made to start originally from Egypt.

    The old Irish Annals support this same tradition saying that Scota came to Ireland, via Spain, from Egypt.

    from Our Ancestors: Scots, Picts and Cymry (1891)
    by Robert Craig MacLagan M.D

    So, now you know. We Scots are sovereign because we are, each of us, literally sovereigns; every one of us is either a Prince or Princess descended from the great Pharaohs of ancient Egypt.

    I quite like the idea of being a Prince of Egypt (now resident in Scotland, of course)

    Ancient Egyptian Proverb: “Inquire about everything that you may understand it. Be good tempered and magnanimous, that your disposition may be attractive.”

    My tongue is firmly in my cheek with this post – but who knows?

    Pharaoh Northcode.

  92. Alf Baird

    twathater @ 3:58 pm

    “most Scots Buts can actually see the glaring hypocrisy they post here and elsewhere but their cowering cringe won’t allow them to acknowledge it , so therefore everything in Scotland is bad and incompetent but engerland is the ultimate imperial master and excels at everything”

    Indeed twathater, colonialism depends on debasing the colonized and his endless inadequacies, whilst meanwhile always reminding us of the virtues of the colonizer. This is a fundamental part of what makes colonialism racism, as our colonialist friends here never fail to remind us.

  93. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    NORTHCODE (3.07) writes: “[…] What I’m beginning to realise is that the language of the Scots and its history and development is a complex area of study. I have little Gaelic – my mother and grandparents were fluent, tho sadly never passed it to me […]”
    Though focusing naturally enough on its own remit (ie Beurla Ghallda), the following extract from the DSL (Dictionaries of the Scots Language) website is a helpfully succinct survey of Scottish linguistic history —


    The first speakers of the Old English ancestor of Scots arrived in what is now southern Scotland in the sixth century CE. These people were descendants of Germanic invaders who had arrived in the south-east of what is now England from the early fifth century. Their variety of Old English is known as Old Northumbrian, a northern sub-dialect of Old Anglian, the Old English dialect spoken over a wide territory stretching from the English Midlands to the Scottish Lowlands. The area that these first Old English speakers occupied, in what was later to become Scotland, is characterised by place-names with early Old English elements. This area consists of a wide swathe of what is now south-eastern and southern Scotland, with less extensive settlements along the Solway and, perhaps rather later, in Kyle in mid-Ayrshire.

    Before the twelfth century the English-speaking part of Scotland was limited to these south-eastern and southern areas (except perhaps for the royal court of King Malcolm III and his queen, Margaret, a princess of the ancient royal house of Wessex, whom he married about 1070). By contrast, there is good chronicle and place-name evidence that by the tenth and eleventh centuries the Gaelic language was socially dominant throughout much of Scotland, including the English-speaking south-east. In origin Gaelic was the native language of the Scots of Alba, the kingdom centred north of the Forth and Clyde, whose kings in the tenth and eleventh centuries also gained dominion of the more southerly parts of what was to become an expanded Scottish kingdom. Until the late eleventh century the increasing linguistic dominance of Scotland by Gaelic continued, but this trend was reversed with the accession of the Normanized kings of Scotland, particularly King David I (1124–53) and his immediate successors. Thereafter place-names and other indications show a spread of the English-speaking area beyond the south-east, first to other parts of southern Scotland, then in the late twelfth and thirteenth centuries to eastern Scotland north of the Forth.

    This expansion of English in Scotland was brought about by several important groups of immigrants who came to Scotland at the invitation of the king: English-speaking servants and retainers of the new Anglo-Norman and Flemish landowners, and of the monks from England and France; and English-speaking ‘pioneer burgesses’, chiefly from south-east Scotland and from northern England, who settled in the new royal and baronial burghs of Scotland that the king and his supporters had founded.

    Though the language of the royal court and the baronage of Scotland was now Norman French, later to become Anglo-Norman, the native tongue of many of these immigrants of lesser rank was a variety of Northern English heavily influenced in pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar by the Old Norse language brought to northern and midland England by Viking-era invaders and settlers. This Norse-influenced Northern English was the principal, though probably not the only, language of the early Scottish burghs, and its contribution to the formation of the language later known as Scots is probably even greater than that of the original Old Northumbrian spoken in south-eastern and southern Scotland.

    Gradually the variety of Northern English spoken in Scotland began to diverge from the Northern English spoken in England, and the Scots language (although it wasn’t yet called Scots) emerged from the thirteenth century onwards: Older Scots, subdivided into Early Scots (up to around 1450) and Middle Scots (from around 1450 to around 1700), and Modern Scots (from around 1700 to the present day). This categorisation may be compared with the usual periods distinguished for English: Old English or Anglo-Saxon (up to around 1100), Middle English (from around 1100 to around 1500), Early Modern English (from around 1500 to around 1700) and Late Modern English (from around 1700 to the present day).

  94. Johnlm

    So, you have no views or opinions on anything?
    Don’t make racist comments then.
    Why are you even here?
    You have a low opinion of the SNP? So do we all.
    You do understand that this is not an SNP site, don’t you?
    Take your pseudo intellectual reminiscences to an SNP site.

    I agree, they want to appear neutral to help steer the conversation.
    If we asked them more questions their answers would give them away or disrupt their script.
    Scroggie has declared that he has no side.
    I will now call him out every time he displays bias from now on.

  95. Beauvais

    Ebeneezer Scroggie @4:17 am

    What motivated the Leave campaign if not tribalism?

    So a majority in England can vote to spurn Europe and can override Scotland and according to you that’s not tribalism. But Scotland calling for its majority vote of 62% to be respected is, according to you, tribalism.

    Making a cogent case for anything requires far greater consistency of thought and far less hypocrisy than that.

  96. willie

    The origins of the Scots are indeed oft cited by academics as being in Egypt. Indeed the Lia Fail is believed to have been and held to have been the stone going back to Old Testament times.

    It is of course established history that the Celts emigrated in waves over the millennia. The differences but root similarities of Brythronic Gaelic as opposed to Goedelic Gaelic such as Welsh versus Scots / Irish being example of that.

    However, coming more up to date, and of course recognising the Scots Gaelic speaking community in Canada, here is a maybe more unrecognised example of latter day emigration.

    The Welsh people first arrived in Patagonia in 1865. They had migrated to protect their native Welsh culture and language, which they considered to be threatened in their native Wales. Over the years the use of the language started to decrease and there was relatively little contact between Wales and the Chubut Valley. The situation began to change when many Welsh people visited the region in 1965 to celebrate the colony’s centenary; since then the number of Welsh visitors increased.

    In 1945 and 1946 the BBC World Service broadcast radio shows in Patagonian Welsh.

    During the 1982 repatriation of Argentine troops from the Falklands war, some Welsh Guardsmen encountered Welsh-speaking Argentine soldiers.[1][2] The detained troops were disembarked at Puerto Madryn.

    In 2004 the Welsh speakers in Argentina asked the Welsh government to provide them with Welsh TV programmes to encourage the survival and growth of Welsh in Patagonia.

    Interesting albeit largely not know about there are apparently around 70,000 Welsh descendent Patagonian Argentinians of whom around 5,000 speak Patagonian Welsh.

  97. Anton Decadent

    With regard to a return to Scots dialect time, birth rates and demographic change may not be in favour of that happening.

  98. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Nobody who has read anything I have written could ever reasonable say that I have no views on anything.

    No reasonable person could reasonably claim that I am a racist or a tribalist or a nationalist.

    Tribalism, nationalism and racism are all exactly the same thing, albeit on a different scale and viewed through different focal length lenses. That’s why I despise all three of those diseases of humankind.

    I’ve seen at first hand what those diseases do to corrode humanity, in Scotland and in the Middle East and in Africa. I dislike that stuff because I have seen at first hand, in all three of those areas and elsewhere, how easily it can have ghastly consequences, both minor and major.

  99. Republicofscotland

    “It was the people of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (+Gibraltar) who were members of the EU; and who democratically voted to leave it.”

    In which the sovereignty of the people of Scotland was cut clean across as described by ex-Welsh FM Carwyn Jones who was more than a bit surprised that the then FM Sturgeon the Judas, didn’t act on it, she promised we (Scots) wouldn’t be dragged out of the EU but when it came to the crunch she folded like a deck chair.

    Looking back at the union and Scots Claim of Right, Scotland is a political and economic union, but not a territorial one, one wonders just how many times England has broken the Treaty of Union, the theft of assets and territorial waters and Brexit are the tip of a very large iceberg of broken treaty acts.

    This is why the English monarchy cannot publicly swear to uphold the all the aspects of the Claim of Right, for if they did they couldn’t allow their fellow countrymen and women to plunder Scottish assets, this why we have two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England along with two sets of crown jewels, yes we had the pretendy coronation in Scotland to try and fool Scots into believing that King Charles III is sovereign over Scots and we also have two crown offices, and two sets of distinctive laws and that’s just some of the major differences between the two kingdoms.

    In England the crown (monarchy) is sovereign, in Scotland its the people that are sovereign the two are utterly incompatible.

  100. James Che

    Back to the nuts and bolts of the political treaty of union , the establishments and the dog with a bone financial investors that have become established in and running Scotland for their own gains,
    From the big financial corporations to the personally gain of owning more than one property in Scotland,
    The reference made is to England as the power drive establishment and established preventing Scottish independence not the ordinary personal Englishman or woman, unless they also have a financial and ego interest in keeping Scots under the cloak of Colonialism.

    Building and sorting the truths out about the foundations of the political treaty of union and what was evolved after the union is important to Scots, understanding “their” actual position of what comes under the treaty and what comes under Colonialism has to be better defined,
    For the two are very different in legalities and yet both are governing Scotland,

    1: The devolved government, = Colonialism,

    2: The Bank of England = Colonialism.

    3: The Monarch of Great Britain = Colonialism.

    4: Reform bill ( Scotland) act/s= Colonialism.

    5: The Crown in Scots laws and judicial system = Colonialism.

    6: The bias in control of the political treaty of union = Colonialism.

    7: Removing and extinguishing the parliament of Scotland from the treaty = Colonialism.

    8: The continuation of the old English parliament into the new parliament of Great Britain without elections under the old English parliaments triennial Act,

    9: The new parliament (but old parliament of England) Great Britain selecting and contributing to the decision of selecting people from Scotland as Scots represenatives after the Scottish parliament was extinguish from the political treaty.

    All these laws, statues, bills and Act were passed of the presumptious, but false claim that Westminster parliament holding parliamentary Sovereignty,

    But the articles of the political treaty of union include the Scots ” Claim of Right” of whereby Sovereignty lies with the people,
    To ignore the Scots “Claim of Right” to alter, re-invent its original form or to interperate into their political wishes it by Westminster would openly breach the treaty of union,

  101. Ebenezer Scroggie


    It was the majority vote of electorate of the member state of the EU: The United Kingdom of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (+ Gibraltar) who voted to leave to EU which we had never voted to replace the EEC anyway.

    It doesn’t matter a toss whether the guid fowk o’ Auchtermuchtie or Fruchie or Unst or Embra’s New Town or South Kensington voted one way or the other.

    The democratic vote of the people of the member State of the EU prevailed.

    The same can be said of the result of THE IndyRef.

    Like it or lump it. Your choice.

    Democracy can be a bitch.

  102. Northcode

    Willie @5th Aug 5:09pm

    Interesting albeit largely not know about there are apparently around 70,000 Welsh descendent Patagonian Argentinians of whom around 5,000 speak Patagonian Welsh.

    Interesting indeed, Willie. I didn’t know about the history of the Welsh in relation to Patagonia. I’ve learned something new today.


    «Tribalism, nationalism and racism are all exactly the same thing»
    There is the opinion of someone who despite his travels has actually learned little. The three are quite distinct and not comparable.
    A very dated colonialist assessment of the world through the eyes of a Westerner.
    The cultural nationalism of the anglo saxon US and UK, Nato etc is one supposes «OK».
    I know «the type» very well as do billions of others.

  104. Johnlm

    Scroggie is channeling Enoch Powell now.
    The ‘rivers of blood’ speech didn’t work in 1968 and it won’t work now.
    You are a racist!
    You claim Scots are incapable of achieving a democracy unlike other countries.
    At least you admit that you are not a Nationalist.
    Hopefully we can help you work through your issues in understanding how the world works.

  105. James Che

    Due to the ” two” positions of where sovereignty lies in Britain through the “Claim of right” as part of the political treaty of union, the kingdom is and cannot a United kingdom,

    There are two Sovereign Realms in Britain
    The Sovereign Scots one with all same original territories since before and since 1707,
    The separate ( but) still the kingdom of England with its territory as was before and since 1707,

    For the political treaty articles did not mention or refer to Scotlands “Claim of right ” becoming invalid after 1707 any more than it referred to the English bill of rights becoming invalid after 1707.

    I hold two positions at present on the political treaty of union, either one may be true or one cancels the other out.

    If the Scottish parliament was extinguished from the treaty of union in 1707 along with the Sovereign claim of right then there is no united kingdom.

    If the political treaty of union does exist and is not a hoax, then the Scottish Sovereignty over the Crown in the Claim of Right in the articles of the treaty of political union does not bestow on Westminster Sovereignty of parliament in Britain as one United Kingdom at all,

    Either way there is no ( one ) united kingdom,

    changing the laws of Scotland in the reform bill ( Scotland ) Acts while not being united in Sovereignty of Crown in Westminster parliament implies no legal authority in Changing the laws and Court systems of Scotland to include Englands Crown in Scotlands justice system since 1707

    In the political treaty of union with Scotlands old parliament and Westminster parliament it is not a legal position for Westminster parliament self imposing it laws of the old English parliaments sovereignty on Scotland unless it is still Claiming to be the parliament and kingdom of England holding that sovereignty,
    and within that scope had Colonised Scots, Scotlands territory, its sea, and laws.

  106. Xaracen

    John Main said;
    “I did notice that the UK left the EU, after a UK-wide vote which asked every UK citizen if the UK should stay in, or should the UK leave.”

    The UK did not vote to Leave the EU. The UK’s population is NOT a homogenous population, because a critical distinction exists between the two peoples making it up; the people of one own the sovereignty of their kingdom, but the people of the other own no sovereignty at all.

    England’s electorate voted Leave, while Scotland’s electorate voted Remain. Those two electorates embody the two partners in the Union, and as equally sovereign kingdoms, neither partner has any formal authority over the other.

    It was therefore an act of constitutional fraud by Westminster to claim that England’s larger Leave vote had outvoted Scotland’s smaller Remain vote and thus declare that the ‘UK had chosen to Leave’; fraudulently because the ‘UK’ clearly did no such thing, its two partner kingdoms’ populations having made directly contradictory decisions on the matter.

    And even on the simple democratic grounds of the two populations of the partners, an English majority to Leave can only ever be an English decision, not a UK one. It required a matching Scottish decision to become an actual Union decision. It didn’t get that matching decision, so the result was;

    English partner; Leave,
    Scottish partner; Remain,
    Majority; none,
    Outcome; no mandate to change the status quo.

    This is precisely the same fraud that Westminster employs with its MPs in the HoC, pretending they are all equal and the same, with no meaningful distinction between them. But distinction there is, and it’s a critical one, because the two sets of MPs represent the two sovereign partner kingdoms of the UK, and as neither partner kingdom has any formal authority over the other, neither can their MP teams have any formal authority over the other MP team. And an MP majority is a form of authority, because it implies the right to force the majority decision on the minority.

    So English MP majorities shouldn’t matter to the Scots MPs, as they can only produce an English Yes or No, and the Scots MPs a Scottish Yes or No. But the voting system in the Commons is still the old one used by the former English parliament, so it has no mechanism to differentiate between sovereignties, so by using it, the English partner’s vastly more numerous MPs get an enormous and totally unwarranted power advantage over the Scots MPs.

    Our worthless MPs have let Westminster get away with this highly abusive fraud for centuries, and in the Brexit referendum they let Westminster carry out the same fraud over Scotland’s people, too!

  107. John Main

    @Beauvais 4:51

    The truth is that a majority of UK voters voted to leave the EU.

    As the sages say, truth is beauty, and beauty, truth. So there’s the beautiful formulation you asked for.

    I could repeat the EU referendum question that we were all asked for you, but what’s the point. You are convinced the question had something about Scotland in it, so who am I to disturb your dreams.

    Incidentally, alert readers of a logical turn of mind have noticed that some of the regulars on here repetitively claim that the Indy referendum vote for Yes was destroyed by non-Sovereign Scots voting No.

    How is it then, that the idea that Scotland’s EU referendum vote for Remain has never been treated as suspect on the suspicion that it was non-Sovereign Scots voting for Remain that overturned a Sovereign Scot majority for Leave?

    Has this never occurred to you, or do you simply choose to discount it as awkward to your predetermined narrative?

    Stands to reason to me that no pro-Indy Scot could ever have been opposed to Indy for the larger UK, simply because the same justifications apply to both situations.

  108. John Main

    @Xaracen 6:15

    I have just responded to Beauvais to ask why the questionable claim that Scotland voted to remain in the EU is allowed to go unchallenged.

    The franchise question, the consideration of who are entitled Sovereign Scots, etc etc apply equally to the Indy and the EU referenda.

    The fact that the questions are only ever raised about one of the referenda and not the other, is deeply suspect.

    My own view is that no Indy-minded Sovereign Scot would touch the EU with a barge pole.

  109. James Che


    Thanks for your learne’d reply and the names of good reference material to read in the near future,
    Indeed colonisation is not restricted to territory alone, but to the suppression culture and languages,

    Did you know that one of the reasons or excuses that Westminster gave for changing some Scots laws after the treaty was as follows,
    That many people in the parliament of Westminster could not understand what the Scots laws were saying, because they did not understand SCOTS, so Westminster considered they could be and should be construed as obsolete Laws.

    I read this a year or two ago while searching through records of Westminster, I took Notes, so if I can fond them over the next week or two I will post them here on Wings,

    But the laws of Scotland predjudcially thrown out because Westminster members could not the understand the language of Scots,.

    Another source of old Scots words can often be found in Annuls of a County or district,
    I learnt the word ” Dinged” from recorded court cases as meaning a variety of insults physically, but could also be used in a slightly different context depending on the conversation and the understand of the Clerk recording,

    This is a quoted from one of those court passage proceedings,

    “He creeped up on him, and under the cover and clood o darkness he did ding him on the heed”

  110. Ian Brotherhood

    This video is mind-blowing.

    Economist Richard Werner (who devised the concept of ‘quantitative easing’) explains why the banking system is a con and why the CBDC is so dangerous.

    In any healthy society this material would’ve been a hot topic of public debate years ago.

    If you think that Rev Stu and Farage were just targeted because of their high-profiles and non-woke stances, don’t be fooled into believing that they won’t ‘debank’ you too. They don’t need a reason and there’s no-one to stop them.

  111. James Che


    The Crown office in Scotland is illegal if the treaty of union is to adhered to and not breached,
    As the Crown is only Sovereign south of the border,

  112. James Jones

    At Xaracen.

    So you think the deal was that a Scots minority willingly entering into a united, democratic Parliament would have the power to overturn majority decisions, and that everyone (MPs and the electorate) understood that but didn’t mention it until Scotland got a whiff of oil? Oh, grow up!

    Sae ye think th’ deal wis that a scots minority willingly entering intae a aw the gether, democratic parliament wid hae th’ power tae overturn maist folk hings tae decide, ‘n’ that a’ body (mps ‘n’ th’ electorate) understaun that bit didn’t mention it ’til scootlund git a whiff o’ oil? oh, graw up!

    (Hee hee!)

  113. John Main

    @johnlm 6:00

    Did you think you were deploying the tactical nuke there? The accusation of “wacist” that leaves nowt but a towering mushroom cloud, not one stone standing upon another, and a dead, silent wasteland?

    Whoops! All I saw was a pantomime effect where a little flag came out with “Bang” written on it.

    Not impressed, soz.

    I advise you to up your game.

  114. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 12:43 pm

    “Scotland is hoaching with New Scots voters…. They already have their own cultures, and they won’t be interested in giving these up.”

    Thank you for acknowledging that independence “is a fight for a national culture” (Fanon). You have also confirmed why the SNP’s ‘Civic Nationalism’ ideology is questionable due to ‘the cultural gap’ between colonized and colonizer (Memmi), which is the racist element that colonialism is built on.

    As Albert Memmi further reminds us, independence “is a matter only for the colonized”; which should seem obvious given the group seeking liberation.

  115. Johnlm

    John Main.
    Are you still here.?
    How do you see Scotland in 20 years if we are still in the union?
    Show me the money.

  116. George Ferguson

    The Studipity of Vanity. A well constructed article. How about following Scottish Football rather than Scottish Politics. Same difference. Day 1 of the SPL and Celtic have won the league. We might as well wrap it now. Hand them the flag. And the Scottish Championships my team Dundee United have already won just 11 to 10 in the bookies now. Serious? No but is Scottish Politics?

  117. Alf Baird

    Northcode @ 4:38 pm

    “Looks like we indigenous Scots are originally from ancient Egypt”

    Archaeological evidence in Ireland does indicate some connection with Queen Scotia, daughter of a pharaoh, and son Hibernia, whose movements out of Egypt were first to what is now Spain and the Balearics. Ireland was formerly known as Scotia. Such as it was, the story would be brought to Scotland via the movement of Gaels from Antrim into Argyll, the latter referred to as the Dalriada Scots.

    However, the Picts, who inhabited most of Scotland, predate the movement of Gaels from Ireland/Scotia into the western fringes of what we know today as Scotland. Later we have the ‘merger’ between ‘indigenous’ Picts and the Gaels to form the Kingdom of Scotland during the 800s.

  118. John Main

    Alf Baird

    Later still we have the Scots boasting genocidally in the Declaration of Arbroath that they had “thrown out the Britons and completely destroyed the Picts”.

    Colonising genocidal bastards, but oor colonising genocidal bastards.

    So that’s alright then.

  119. Johnlm

    Has Ernie Walker produced his report on Scottish football yet?

  120. John Main

    @johnlm says


    Ooo, good one.

    But still, my advice hasn’t changed – up your game.

  121. James Che


    The money is funnelled in the front door under a Country we are in a proxy war with and oot the back, into the global banks,
    Nae track and trace and no receipts gathered.

    Show us the money returned or show us the receipts for the loan. Show us the money Britain, wgere is our money,
    This is much worse than the Snp skiddadling corrupt with money and Billions of pounds more, and no receipts, no paperwork,
    And the police are not investigating one penny.

  122. George Ferguson

    @Alf Baird 7:40pm
    Surely genetic evidence is a better guide. DNA testing and profiling has no emotional attachment. Apparently I am 6% Neanderthal an absolute outlier. But then again Neanderthal men were family people. Perhaps then I am not that far out. Politically if people are working in Scotland and paying tax then they are entitled to a vote on Scottish Independence. It’s our problem to persuade them. The Westminster Government stance of no 2nd Indy referendum is 100% unsustainable. If only we have astute Political capability to deliver the way forward.

  123. Ebenezer Scroggie


    «Tribalism, nationalism and racism are all exactly the same thing»

    Yes, they are all the same thing on different scales, only a slope from bad to worse.

    I, personally, subscribe to none of those evils.

    The tribalism of Scotland is self-evident, including here on this forum. I’ve seen worse, having lived amongst Arabs for years and in Nigeria too, but you only have to live in central Scotland to experience the fitbaa’ tribes to experience that same latent tribalism.

    The nationalism of Scotland is self-evident, sometimes in vile personally abusive form of ad hominem attacks, eg on this forum. It’s exactly the same shit.

    The racism of Scotland is self-evident, including here on this forum where some (a minority, I hope) believe that if a child is born in a country which is inhabited by people of low reflectivity, then their Scottishness is somehow attenuated or invalidated.

    I do not agree with Tribalism or with Nationalism or with Racism, for I recognise that they are all shades of a very dark grey part of humanity.

  124. Johnlm

    T Rawls
    W ikipedia
    E excavating
    R esponse
    P oints

  125. Johnlm

    Scroggie claims that he isn’t a racist.
    Yet here he is, dripping his poison, trying to stir the pot.

  126. Viscount Ennui

    Always interested in what Alf Baird has to say but I want to challenge him re colonialisation via language/dialect suppression.
    a) I doubt that it is part of any designated ‘plan’ as such.
    b) The language of the colonial master is itself under threat from external influence and specifically the USA.
    My gut feeling is that this is a bit of a red herring.
    Languages evolve over time according to the dominant forces acting upon them.
    Doric and Gaelic are under threat not because of any grand plan but because of the way that the population accesses information and in these days it is through the internet.
    I fear that Scotland has made itself vulnerable to its own self-inflicted inferiority complex through bad governance rather than any great plan from the oppressors.
    What perplexes me most of all is that the SNP have not, over the period of time that they have held sawy, articulated any grand vision for the type of nation that we might become with independence. Everything is centered on grievance and the joyful nationalism of 2014 has been replaced by a deeply unpleasant hatred of the English.
    Gaelic uptake is woeful and that is due primarily to poor leadership at both local and national level but also a belief amongst thos growing-up in our education system that, on the basis of performance, Scotland is pretty crap at governing itself and the best way to move on and up in the world is to emigrate or assimilate with our larger neighbour.
    Apologies if I have offended anyone.

  127. John Main

    Ebenezer Scroggie

    You wish to live in a world where one’s origin, culture and world view is irrelevant. That’s defo admirable in my book.

    We don’t live in that world. All of history tells us that. To deny that reality is not admirable at all.


    It’s Innarestin that you write of people of low reflectivity. If I was to travel to one of the countries where these people live and try to tell them what to do and how to live their lives, I would be given a very short shrift.

    And entirely rightly too.

    The idea that I, or my son, could aspire to become their “leader” is risible. And again, that’s entirely right.

    Soz again.

    If you take a proud, free, independent country like Pakistan, for example. The humblest, most poorly educated Pakistani knows that no white Christian could ever be allowed to lead her country. No matter how many generations had been spent in the country. And that’s exactly how it should be.

    Soz. You either accept that as a given, or you have to make the ludicrous claim that an entire country, nation and culture are irredeemably racist. And the latter is not a good look at all.

  128. James Che

    Was it not Bede, that reference the picts as coming from sythia,?,

  129. Johnlm

    John main
    To quote Scroggie tribalism, nationalism and racism are all the same thing.
    I think he just accused everyone here as being racist.
    Go on. Tell him to “up his game”

    I’m an ex surveyor too, and have worked abroad. But I wouldn’t pretend to
    lecture on how the world works just because I once had a crap behind a sand dune.
    Surveyors understand trigonometry. They are not geniuses.

  130. Xaracen

    James Jones said;
    “At Xaracen.

    So you think the deal was that a Scots minority willingly entering into a united, democratic Parliament would have the power to overturn majority decisions, and that everyone (MPs and the electorate) understood that but didn’t mention it until Scotland got a whiff of oil? Oh, grow up!”

    So you think that just because one nation is larger than another nation, the smaller nation is legally and democratically obliged to be subservient to it?

    Piss off! No other nation in the world would accept that, and neither should Scotland.

    All nations regard their sovereignty as inviolable, because that is what sovereignty means, that their authority in their own borders is absolute, and nobody else gets a say in that. Scotland and England are no different in that regard.

    As I’ve had to point out on more than one occasion, the Union formally consists of two equally sovereign kingdoms which agreed to joint governance from a shared parliament, with each kingdom represented in that parliament by a team of their own MPs. The ‘United Kingdom’ is just a convenient title for other countries of the world to refer to that composite entity.

    Neither kingdom has any formal authority over the other, and the numbers of their MPs only reflect population sizes. Scotland’s MPs represent a whole kingdom, as England’s MPs represent their whole kingdom.

    Scotland is not subservient to England, and nothing in the Treaty requires it to be.

    Westminster’s internal voting system completely ignores the fact that its MPs represent two separate sovereign kingdoms, rather than the single one it was originally designed for. As a result it isn’t remotely fit for purpose as a democratic means of agreeing joint decisions between the two sovereign kingdoms their MPs act as agents for. England and its MPs have no formal authority over Scotland and its MPs, and the numeric superiority of England’s MPs doesn’t provide any extra authority. That Westminster’s English establishment thinks and behaves as if it does is nothing more or less than an abusive lie that should have seen the end of the Union in its first week!

    So, James, you’ve got it dead wrong; Scotland doesn’t need the power to overturn majority decisions, it’s fully entitled to ignore certain of England’s majority decisions under the simple rules set out below, and to make its own majority decisions, and to make them stick.

    Summary; Only two equal partner kingdoms, so only two votes; one vote per MP team by simple majority vote, then a comparison of the two outcomes. If both outcomes are Yes, the matter passes, else it fails. There is only one exception; if one team votes to end the Union, the other must accept it.


  131. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Viscount Ennui,

    What a brilliant and insightful post!

  132. John Main

    Viscount Ennui

    You have offended me with your apology at the end.

    “Tell the truth and shame the devil” is what I was taught as a loon.

    You have written nothing but truth. No apology needed.

  133. JGedd

    Is there any genetic evidence for the Egyptian connection? The narrative is that Neolithic farmers came from the eastern Mediterranean through Anatolia and eventually into Europe via two routes mainly through southern Europe into Central Europe and also through the Iberian peninsula, eventually arriving in the British Isles. They were the megalith builders with many sites throughout Britain and Ireland notably the religious centres like Ness of Brodgar and Stonehenge. They mainly erected communal tombs like Howth and Dowth, Maes Howe etc.

    There had long been a version of history which maintained that changes and culture and religious practice had been due to new people arriving but mid-29th century the narrative changed and archaeololgists came to believe that the native population had remained the same and it was simply the cultural ideas and artefacts had been adopted from elsewhere.

    However, recent large-scale genetic surveys undertaken by international teams of geneticists using the latest techniques of testing revealed that the Neolithic peoples had been Mediterranean in origin and were dark-skinned and brown eyed but they were largely replaced by a people whose ancestors came from the Pontic steppe – and that put the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons. This upset some archaeologists who were firmly of the belief that the population of these islands had basically remained the same and had simply adopted new ideas from the near continent.

    This new population had lighter skins and were likely to have lighter eyes too, as well as lighter hair – brown or fair. They also tended to be taller than the Neolithic farmers. They brought with them the new technology of metal working and were horsemen. ( It’s speculated that horses were first domesticated in the eastern steppe where related peoples who shared their ancestry lived.) They brought with them ideas of warrior hierarchies and barrow tombs for notable individuals. The genetic Y-chromosome marker of these people is the haplogroup R1b-M629 which most males in Scotland and Ireland have to this day. ( They also introduced two mitrochondrial haplogroups which had never existed in these islands before which shows that they brought their womenfolk with them.)

    It always intrigued me that the Declaration of Arbroath had claimed that some of the ancestry of the Scots was from Scythia. Back then I thought that this was the usual historical origin myth which many peoples had but still found it strange that they should have chosen somewhere so distant from Scotland and with no discernible connection to Scotland. However, it makes me wonder a little that they should have picked on a people who, though later than the coming of the steppe-related people to the British Isles, shared some of their steppe ancestry. It was only the advances in genetic science in modern times which actually revealed the actual connection.

    It is still puzzling why, though the Y-chromosome R1b is the most prevalent in Europe, that in the British Isles there seems to have been replacement of the former population. Some archaeologists find it hard to accept the Neolithic people who built the great stone circles and tombs should have disappeared. In other parts of Europe there appears to have been an intermingling and the Neolithic farmer genes continued, to return in a later iteration to England – but that’s a whole other story.

  134. George Ferguson

    @Viscount Ennui 8:34pm
    I am not offended by what you say. We have to be able to debate without fear of our bank accounts been nullified. Unfortunately one of my three niece nurses is emigrating to New Zealand. Assisted passage status. A huge loss to Scotland. And so it goes on.

  135. Alf Baird

    Viscount Ennui @ 8:34 pm

    “Scotland is pretty crap at governing itself”

    We shuirly winna ken that until Scotland does govern itself. Hence the UN terms ‘non self-governing territory’ and ‘administrative Power’.

  136. Northcode

    Alf Baird @7:40pm

    That first line of my comment was just a bit of hyperbole so that I could get in my line about being a Prince of Egypt.

    But you were right to clarify my slightly facetious comment in case any folk out there thought I was being serious about contemporary Scots being directly descended from the Pharaohs of ancient Egypt. Although, as you say, it seems there is some connection however tenuous that connection might be.

    I have no defence – sometimes my poor attempts at humour run away with me.

    Apologies to those disappointed to discover that it’s unlikely they are a Prince or Princess of Egypt.

  137. James Jones

    Xaracen at 8:52 pm.

    “So you think that just because one nation is larger than another nation, the smaller nation is legally and democratically obliged to be subservient to it?”

    I didn’t say that. Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom (that’ll rile people again) and proportionately represented in the UK Parliament. Devolution gave it some independence which others regions don’t enjoy but it’s still part of a central, cooperative UK Parliament and the arrangement means it has democratic obligations. You might regret that history led us here, or think that somehow Scotland was going to sit in Parliament but then do its own thing, but what would be the point of that?

  138. JGedd

    Well evidently nobody read it to notice the mistake but I’m correcting it anyway. It should read ‘mid-20th century’ and not ’29th’.

  139. Ebenezer Scroggie

    John Main,

    “you have to make the ludicrous claim that an entire country, nation and culture are irredeemably racist.”

    No, thankyou.

    You only have to visit, or even view, how two cultures of the same “race” can come to agree not to come to blows after the event and can co-operate in a ceremonial fashion.

    I’ve been to the Attari Wagah ceremony, from both sides on quite separate occasions, and I’ve seen the fervour of the thing.

    It really isn’t a “race” thing. Their’s is not a race thing. It’s a tribalistic and religious thing as much as national.

    Rangers v Celtic, with empty guns and good discipline in the crowds.

    Quite nice, actually. On both sides.

    Much nicer than the very nasty ad hominem attacks that I’ve suffered hereabouts.

    You can find umpteen videos on YouTube about that daily ceremony.

    es is a belief thing.

  140. Viscount Ennui

    Alf Baird says:
    5 August, 2023 at 9:20 pm

    Viscount Ennui @ 8:34 pm

    “Scotland is pretty crap at governing itself”

    We shuirly winna ken that until Scotland does govern itself. Hence the UN terms ‘non self-governing territory’ and ‘administrative Power’.

    OK but we could govern health, education, housing, transport etc because these are devolved.
    We also have limited tax-raising powers.
    We could demonstrate that there is a true separation of powers rather than allowing a corrupt executive to dominate and de-democratise proceedings.
    We COULD do all of this.
    We could demonstrate to the world that we are capable of running an independent state but have chosen not to.
    By ‘we’ I mean the SNP.
    Alf – and this is a personal question, would you have given more power to NS or currently to YH?
    And please articulate a vision for what an independent Scotland would look like because those in power appear incapable of doing so.
    I have my own ideas but they are built on good governance and not tokenistic policies or the avoidance of legitimate scrutiny.
    Would you give more power to the current Scottish Government?
    A binary question.

  141. Johnlm

    Regarding the Picts/scythians/goths you maybe interested in a series of films by Ashalogos on big huge
    Part 1 –
    Who knows the truth with scientific credibility in the dumps currently.

  142. Northcode

    JGedd @ 9:41pm

    I read your post and found it very interesting.

    I did notice your reference to the 29th century, but I realised it was just a typo and that you were referring to the 20th century so didn’t feel the need to point it out.

  143. George Ferguson

    @Ebenezer Scroggie 9:52pm
    Come on I am somebody that grew up on the East Side of Scotland. “Rangers vs Celtic with empty guns and good discipline in the crowds”. Thank fcuk they don’t have guns. The truth, the rest of Scotland wants Glasgow to settle their difference. Until then Scotland will be a lesser people. I never got Glasgow. But then they never got Ferries or Highland Community nurses leaving for the far side of the World. Or anything in fact than prevented a vote for SNP or Green without consequence.

  144. Ian Brotherhood

    @JGedd (9.41) –

    I did notice the typo but only a pedantic fud would point it out.

    Not sure if you’ve seen Lenny Hartley’s posts on this subject but I suspect you would have a fruitful exchange.

    Right now I’m enjoying reading anything here by anyone who isn’t an obvious shill/77er. At times, recently, it’s seemed that the spooks have been in the majority. Not good, but indicative of how seriously the state still views the whole ‘Scottish problem’. So that’s a positive. Some of them may even feel a wee bit guilty about doing it but hey, we’ve all got mortgages etc. Can’t be easy.

    It’ll get a lot harder yet, to work out who’s for real or not, what with the AI stuff!

    ‘Can you write a 200-word comment in response to this, in the style of John Main?’

    7 seconds later…

    (insert typical JM spiel here)

    ‘I hope this is helpful!’

    I suppose we’ll all have to just resist the temptation to have AI write our responses.

    Ach well, so it goes…

  145. Xaracen

    James Jones said;
    “Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom (that’ll rile people again) and proportionately represented in the UK Parliament.”

    Bullshit; Scotland is not a region, you ignorant arrogant tit, it is one of the two sovereign kingdoms that created the Union and its Parliament. Scotland’s MP numbers represent the relative size of its population compared with England’s, but their authority as agents of a sovereign founder of the Union is fully equal with the authority of England’s agents, who act for the other sovereign founder.

    Both those sovereignties are entitled to demand and to get full recognition of their rights and authorities, but Westminster’s refusal to respect Scotland’s rights and authorities is a clear abuse of its obligations to a full Principal of the Treaty, which that Principal agreed with the only other Principal of the Treaty, the kingdom of England.

    The Union is a formal legal partnership of the two kingdoms, it is NOT a formal legal partnership of their 650 constituencies, which is how Westminster actually treats it. That Westminster’s internal voting system has never been amended to recognise and respect that fundamental constitutional truth is unlawful, and an utterly undemocratic and abusive disgrace.

    That you appear to be smugly content with that shoddy shameful arrangement is all the rest of us need to know about you, and others who hold a similar view.

  146. Alf Baird

    Viscount Ennui @ 10:09 pm

    “We could demonstrate to the world that we are capable of running an independent state but have chosen not to.”

    We don’t currently have that choice, or rather the SNP has not exercised its authority. Colonial society involves two psychical and cultural realms, one dominant and the other subordinate. The dominant culture is the oppressors who runs the show, with his language and his values. In colonialism the native is a bystander, his culture and language perishing.

  147. Gareth

    Pitiful bollocks from a ludicrous self-catering chancer.

    “Sure, freeports are a Tory idea. But it does not logically follow that because few Scots vote Tory, most Scots are axiomatically opposed to all Tory policies.” John Main

    PS: Use of ‘axiomatically’ added to give pretence of intellectual thought.

  148. Geoff Anderson

    The Secrecy driven Government of the SNP……not FOR the People, but to protect Ministers.

  149. Geoff Anderson

    Why let a trial get in the way of a lynching?

  150. Captain Yossarian

    Viscount Ennui – What a great insightful post. What has Holyrood done for us and who is interested in listening to any more of it? It exists for the gratification and self-importance of those that sit there. My experience has been that it is the most putrid seat of government (albeit devolved government) anywhere in the world and the Labour Part will be equally as putrid when they take over. Either close it down or go and find a better life overseas and don’t come back or, if you want to come back, do so when you are retired.

  151. Johnlm

    Yossarian recommends fleeing Scotland only to return for the benefits on retirement.
    But there will be no benefits because everyone has left.

    It’s a catch-22 situation

  152. John Main


    That radioactive cloud that was “coming your way”.

    You weren’t supposed to inhale the blasted thing!

    BTW, if you really are counting the words in my comments, then for your own good, I advise you to get a better life.

  153. John Main


    How did you miss Yousaf’s plan? It was announced only last week, FFS.

    Import a million or so New Scots. Arrange their perks, benefits and residence terms so that they will be voting SNP in perpetuity (til they are savvy enough to form their own political representation, actually).

    They will be doing the work to ensure us Sovereign Scots get our benefits.

    You might think this idea is simply a government implemented Ponzi Scheme but don’t knock it. It has been running successfully in England since Blair.

  154. Dorothy Devine

    Northcode – deeply disappointed that i am not a Pharoah’s daughter.

    Geoff Anderson , I’m thinking the choice of candidate for the Western isles might not be a success.

    Do some folk stay up all night just to score points?Or have they nothing better to do?

  155. robbo

    UK doing great John Main.

    As usual show us the money. Over £5k per second .

    It’s kinda magic ain’t it!

  156. Captain Yossarian

    johnlm – “But there will be no benefits because everyone has left”. They won’t all have left. Holyrood parliamentarians will still be there, blethering meaningless skitter to each other every Thursday. Outside the confines of Holyrood and St Andrews House, everything will be dust, silence and tumbleweed. That is the present trajectory. Fergus Ewing, by the way, is saying what I am saying just now and he’s right, isn’t he?

  157. Johnlm

    John Main.
    When I know you have been reading my posts it feels unclean somehow..
    Once BRICS is up and running there will be no need for people to flee their homelands.
    Oh … wait … you hate BRICS don’t you?

  158. Johnlm

    Next time let me pick a name for your troll account.
    Catch-22 is a hostage to fortune.
    It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.

  159. Stephen O'Brien

    Scots Law, the perfect gift. Been waiting centuries to be unwrapped.

    The People are ready to utilise the above against the devolved Scottish Parliament, to seek adequate procedural representation, from elected agents.

    Are you ready to participate in such momentous occasion?

  160. Captain Yossarian

    Johnlm – I suspect you are calling me a troll just because I disagree with you. Play the ball, not the man.

    In the spirit of good natured camaraderie which still exists on these pages, I will explain to you what “shooting fish in a barrel” means:

    I always found Catch-22 to be a great analogy for life itself. You obviously know the book well?

    The analogy I draw from Catch-22 to the current political stasis that has existed in Scotland for the past 10-years (and is only going to get worse) is when Milo Minderbinder agreed a deal with the Germans to bomb his own squadron.

    You may remember, many men were killed, planes, hangers, ammunition and fuel dumps were destroyed. Milo Minderbinder was paid the cost of the operation plus 6% profit (which was paid to him personally). He thought that it was a great deal for him personally and if it was a great deal for him, and he was American, then it was a great deal for America.

    Sure, there was a lot of very angry people around for a while, but Milo Minderbinder just toughed it out and it soon all settled down and a few months later it was all forgotten and Milo Minderbinder just held-on to the money.

    Is that not what is going on just now in Scotland?

  161. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 8:11 am

    “How did you miss Yousaf’s plan? Import a million or so New Scots.”

    The ‘population policy’ for Scotland is not Yousaf’s plan, it is Gove’s plan. Oor colonial administrators are merely helping deliver it. Its a simple formula: ‘New Scots’ = No voters (mostly).

    On your argument that the union was established for economic reasons, we should not forget the threats and bribery, or the usual imperial subterfuge, much of which lingers still.

  162. Dan

    Captain Yossarian says: at 7:11 am

    What has Holyrood done for us and who is interested in listening to any more of it?

    Similarly, what has Westminster done for Scotland and who is interested in listening to any more of it?

    Your preferred London Rule hasn’t exactly been an exemplar of competent governance over 300 odd years, adequately managing the assets, resources and industries that we had, whilst looking out for majority of folk that inhabit this political State.

    Obviously I am no fan of what the current Scottish Administration of Devolved Powers, along with other players in the legal and police game have been up to. Only an idiot would think all that is transpiring in Scotland doesn’t have outside influences assisting in creating the skipfire we are enduring so it is wrong to say it is all borne in Scotland.
    But it is worth remembering that Holyrood in the past has done some things that are beneficial to many Scots.

    Obviously not all of that list of achievements will be supported by all people, but that is what governing for all rather than just your own personal views is about.
    You come on here with a pretty negative outlook criticising Scotland, but the tell is you rarely if ever complain or critique bad shiz emanating from Westminster, which arguably has caused proportionally far more damage to Scotland over the course of the 300 year Union. Population growth disparities, demographics, and infrastructure development clearly show this.

  163. Captain Yossarian

    Dan – I agree with most of what you say above and you are perceptive and your posts are sensible, reasonable and they explain your point of view and I don’t think that I am too far away from you most of the time.

    All that I am saying is that the alternative to a Westminster government, a Holyrood government, might be a lot worse. Think of Brexit. There is no evidence to say that it will be any better and I think that, to repeat the Catch-22 analogy again, in teaming-up with the Greens, you have made a mistake analogous to Milo Minderbinder teaming-up with the Germans to bomb his own airfield.

    For all the good things that Holyrood has done, everything is still worse now than it was before Holyrood and I am talking about the important things that take decades to get right – law, policing, health, education, justice. We used to excel at all of that and now we are pretty crap at it, aren’t we.

    Milo Minderbinder just kept the money. Where has the £80m lost on the DRS actually ended-up? Are we just all supposed to forget about that now? Blame Alister Jack?

  164. Johnlm

    I draw your attention to the parable of the rubber balls and the crab apples.
    What slightly irked me yesterday was that instead of genuine back and forth Scroggie decided to drip his poisonous bigotry into this post.
    When he was pulled up on it John Main tried to ride to the rescue.
    Then viscount ennui dipped a toe in and yourself, Main and Scroggie all came in to support.
    Who knows if you all know each other but you obviously want to steer the conversation to race issues.
    Clearly, you all have no wish to see an Independent Scotland.
    Having grown up in West of Scotland politics in the 1970s I understand well that when a faction is intellectually bankrupt, such as your ‘group’ is, you have to change the narrative.
    In the 70s the Labour manifesto was basically, “Don’t vote SNP or Scotland will become another Ulster”
    Add John Main’s channelling of Willie Ross’s refrain ‘we are incapable of running our own affairs’
    It all has a very retro feel.
    As they say in ‘Wag the Dog’ – “Change the story, change the lead.”
    Rubber balls and crab apples.

  165. Johnlm

    This is a site discussing Independence issues.
    It is not an SNP site.
    You dislike independence.
    Ergo you are a troll

  166. Robert Hughes

    @ Capt Aardvark

    ” My experience has been that it is the most putrid seat of government (albeit devolved government) anywhere in the world ”


    It´s bad alright , total shite in fact but have you cast your selectively jaundiced eye Stateside recently ?

    The Biden Kleptocratic Admin – when not pouring gold down the throat of the titular Leader ; allowing untold 1000s of ” illegals ” to saunter unchecked through it´s southern border ; singing the praises of the * gender * child-mutilation industry and overseeing the destruction of it´s economy – is encouraging and facilitating the literal destruction of it´s geopolitical catamite way over yonder in ” Eastasia ” .

    The latter itself being synonymous with governmental corruption – until , of course , it was expediently cleansed of all it´s sins by Joe The Baptist n the blessed Crusaders of Democracy .

    Aye , the present ScotGov is almost comically useless , but , in comparison to those two – and others elsewhere eg W.E.F testing ground Canada – it´s Bhutan for Cultural Groucho Marxists.

    That said , it ( current ScotGov ) is catching-up , fast , and is showing great potential to join the ranks of truly abysmal people-hating ( other than the new Queer Elect , obvs ) Misanthrocracies of * our * Hades-bound Westworld

  167. Captain Yossarian

    Johnlm – I give-up for today! Because several of us don’t agree with you, that doesn’t mean that we all know each other and that we are all conspiring against you. Democracy means that you can state your point of view, whatever it is. My point of view is that we just leave things alone until we prove that we can run things better by ourselves. That’s not that radical, is it? You missed-out Viscount Ennui, by the way, his contribution was worthwhile, wasn’t it? Also, this has nothing whatsoever to do with bigotry. I have lived and worked all over the place, I have seen the damage caused by it and I have no interest in that subject.

  168. Johnlm

    Sorry that this is no longer a safe space for you.
    Learn a bit more about what is going on overseas and you’ll see that Scotland’s collapse is mirrored throughout ‘The West’.
    Ask yourself why.
    Hating your own country isn’t healthy for you.
    There is a lot of good too.


    «My point of view is that we just leave things alone until we prove that we can run things better by ourselves»
    Effectively that signifies never as the criteria for the proving, like the fabled goalposts, will just keep moving. Indeed, anything but «radical» at a time when Scotland badly needs radical, can-do thinking. The political water-treaders are killing the creature.

  170. Northcode

    James Che @5th Aug 6:52pm

    You’re welcome, James. Although I’m hardly learned in the academic sense. I just read a lot of books written by smarter and more knowledgeable folk than me.

    No, I didn’t know about Westminster’s excuses for changing some of Scots law, but I’m not really all that surprised.

    You found this quote:

    This is a quoted from one of those court passage proceedings, “He creeped up on him, and under the cover and clood o darkness he did ding him on the heed”

    Ah wis dinged on ma heed ance an it wisnae ony fun. 🙂

  171. Northcode

    Dorothy Devine

    deeply disappointed that i am not a Pharoah’s daughter.

    Please forgive me, Dorothy.

    It was very wrong of me to raise, falsely, the hopes and dreams of folk on here only to trample those dreams to dust under the heartless boot of reality.

    It’s Alf Baird’s fault – he just had to go and tell folk the truth and then I had no choice but to fess-up. I might have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for him.

    Anyway, if it’s any consolation, I suspect you’re a Princess nonetheless.

  172. Ebenezer Scroggie

    One of the prime problems for the Separatistas, quite apart from their incomprehension of the concept of Democracy after a once in a lifetime referendum, is the actual record of blithering incompetence and malfeasance by the SNumPties in government.

    It’s hard to see how they can ever get over that problem for them.

  173. Dorothy Devine

    Northcode , this rather elderly princess thanks you for a most gracious reply – birthday was on Friday and it contains LARGE numbers.

  174. Confused

    the arseholes have stopped the big cycling race up the crow road; what is it with these fuckers? Is riding bikes not as green as it gets?

    if I was trying to get a sick relative to hospital and they stopped me, I would run them over, seriously – then I would reverse over them for good measure. Then I would put one of them in the boot for later on for some historical re enactments, getting medieval.

    this is where game theory helps us – the crazy man gambit; someone needs to murder one of these wastes of protoplasm, then when it goes to a jury trial – they are bang to rights, but the jury decides not to convict – jury nullification. Then all this shite just stops as they can be killed at will.

    fucking middle class cunts – the middle class ruin everything; we need a jihad against them – back to the fields for you lot

    better still they should try their protests at ibrox or at an orange walk or outside a mosque

    – see what happens, I dare you

    “lets attack ordinary people for the crimes of a system they had no part in devising” – sounds about fair to me. Don’t go after the rockefellers or people like that, just the little people.


    You appear to have not taken note of the legions of incompetents who operate in the political domain worldwide. By your criteria no country on the planet might aspire to «independence». Scotland with no more than the usual quota of political incompetents might at the very least be allowed to have a free, «unsupervised» democratic choice in the matter. Having preset and purely notional boxes to tick and hurdles to leap, stage managed referenda to win is anything but true to the spirit of democracy.
    As a living entity attached to a withered imperium which still clings to its past and notions of exceptionalism Scots have very little to lose by cutting that union umbilical.

  176. fruitella the hun

    FAO John Main

    Two non-scientists debating genetic ideas will amuse or annoy any properly qualified people reading this but anyway, that’s what we politicos do. You said:

    “ An irradiated landscape without people is still better for wildlife than a pristine landscape with humans in it. The issues that bother us civilised humans about radiation, birth defects and cancers, are by and large irrelevant in nature. Animals always produce excess offspring in the expectation some won’t reach maturity. Radiation induced cancers cull animals past the age at which they will already have reproduced.”

    I’ve read the abstract of the Chernobyl Stirling Uni paper on this and some of the main paper. It doesn’t say there are no significant effects, they acknowledge work stating that effects are discernible.

    Their point is that the effects might be lower than results from other biological pressures. That is, biosphere protection needs to deal with those first, a valid conservation point.

    Nuclear radiation increases the throw rate of the genetic dice. This increases the chance of viable mutations developing. A mutation may or may not significantly affect the local species asemblage but if it does, the ecosystem can shift, over time, which could be catastrophic for some species and may well not favour human needs. Why increase the risk of that when we can find better, lower risk tactics for living?

  177. Alf Baird

    Northcode 11:09 am

    “tell folk the truth”

    Apologies. Though for sure peoples have come here, often ‘invaders’, and each brought their myths with them. This included the Gaels, and before them the Romans, then the Vikings, and the English – or ‘customary foe’. Each group also brought, and sought to impose, their languages, and propensity to re-name places in their image, and erect monuments to their glory. Amidst all this comings and goings the poor old indigenous Picts just carried on as best they could. Sae hits guid that the fowk here developed oor ain langage – whit we noo ken as ‘Scots’, tho hits aye makkit inhabile by oor doun-hauders.

  178. Confused

    what a lovely sunday – I see scroggie is still here shilling for


    as my old grandad used to say – brilliantly insightful man –

    all english are poofs
    all tories are paedos

    and what they offer is


    aye, when the tory mps go on a “fact finding” mission (2 tubes of lube!) at a children’s home, all the good looking lads are sprinting out the back door (as it were)

  179. Sven

    Ebenezer Scroggie @ 11.41

    I’d suggest that the underlying error in conflating “Separistas” with an SNP/Green devolved administration lies in falling for the initially successful ploy of Mr Salmond, carried on by his rascally successor Ms Sturgeon, that the SNP political party and Independence supporters are one and the same … they are manifestly are not.
    And, I believe, the wheels are coming off that wagon. More and more voters are realising, as other alternatives are presented, that it is possible to support Independence without subscribing to a fairly disinterested alleged “ independence” SNP. Particularly an extreme woke SNP being led by two unelected List Green Ministers whose incompetence is a national joke.

  180. James Che

    The Snp and blithering government are under the employment of England parliament in legislation.
    They swear an oath to the Crown of England when the enter that parliament,
    Holyrood are the Colonial branch office for Westminster,

    It is meant to become a blithering inept governance when the population begin to want independence,it is meant to ruin Scotland and bring it to its knees,

    That Colonial controlled branch office is doing Westminsters bidding beautifully, just as Westminster office is doing America’s

  181. Ebenezer Scroggie


    We had a free democratic choice in the once in a lifetime referendum.

    We voted No.

    What we’ve got is a spectacularly incompetent ‘government’ which is as bad as some of the worst banana republics. We haven’t even got any bananas.

    We dodged a bullet when we voted against the self-harm of amputating ourselves from the United Kingdom which was created by Scots for the benefit of Scots.

  182. Johnlm

    Dammit. I thought we had got the yoons quiet.
    Then y’all decide to ask for their opinions again.
    What the hell is wrong with you?

  183. Confused

    aye its a good job for the brexit or otherwise that ursula vander leyden would have been handing out north sea drilling licenses the other week and shaking down the english for the cost of a new european supernuke, to be berthed up the thames. At least the english don’t have to listen to being told how the english are living off the productive industry of germany, being no more than paper pushers themselves; having it constantly explained, the parasitic nature of “financial capitalism” as opposed to productive, industrial, the making of things.

    The worst of the EU, doing its worst, on its worst day, would still be better than the best of the union on its best.

    EU, UK – no comparison, which makes the chutzpah of brexiteers complaining about the relative good deal the UK got from the EU, while dismissing rather more valid claims by Scot Nats about exploitation and disrespect

    – a bit hard to take.

    the union is the worst form of government and westminster the benchmark for corruption – it is as bad as it is possible to be and holyrood, by comparison, is still in training pants and this is all because the english, the anglos are the worst people on earth, the worst people ever to exist and who are behind, at root, every evil enterprise of the past 1000 years.

    the union – its like a flatshare with the manson family

  184. robbo

    I see some keep coming on here harping about how we are so shit. Tell you who else is shit- the gers. I bet there’s a few BEALIN at Ibrox the day!

    Beale must go will be the cry soon!

  185. Northcode

    Dorothy Devine

    Happy Birthday, Dorothy. I hope you had a nice day on Friday.

    Remember this, though, your age is just a number, and a Princess is a Princess regardless.

    You wouldn’t believe how old I am.

    How do you think I know so much about the ancient Egyptians? 🙂


    The British State and its competent care of the cash.
    London establishment, the great maw that yells, more! more!
    Anti Unionism…gifted on a golden salver.

  187. James Che

    The doubts as to a wether a msp in Scotland is genuine or not?
    Any Scottish mp willing to work in the devolved Colonial branch office from Westminster who swear an oath to the monarch of England and except that the Crown of England in our justice system belies our truth of why they are their,

    As soon as they enter the Scottish devolved parliament they are employees of of the other half of Britain.
    For the people are Sovereign in Scotland not the Crown of England, if the articles of treaty of union is genuine and have any relevance,
    Then those in the devolved government in Scotland swear an oath to England not Scotland.

    Independence for Scotland is not acheivable through a this Colonial method set up to Stymie Scotland from becoming independent.

    It is not just the Snp that are wrong, it is the Colonial branch office that has come to us under the legislation and authority of the Crown of England that gave royal assent,

    This situation is not improved when we witness the devolved government branch office employees running down south to the Crown in the Supreme Court (not mentioned in the political treaty of union Articles by the way) whilst pretending Scotland and its people is not Sovereign.

    Our biggest problem in Scotland is the devolved government branch office,

    When the Scotland Act came into being along with all its restrictions imposed on us,
    we must remember that this devolved Westminster government is not Sovereign in Scotland lest we forget, and neither are the Crown laws that sneak in through the back door on its back,
    It is not Sovereign .

    The gender laws
    , the Climate change laws
    , the Hate crime bill for Scotland,
    the Scotland act legislation
    , the supreme Court,
    The Crown in the justice and Court systems in Scotland at present,
    The Bank of Englands control over the Treasury and national debt.

    all come under the Crown of England authority resting in Westminster parliament which is where they claim their Sovereign authority derives,

    BUT is not Sovereign in Scotland

    These are Colonial laws in Scotland of the Crown of England,
    So do the sovereign Scots have to abide by them?

  188. robbo

    Just ma wee Sunday windup. Our Scottish media journalists are shite.

    I wonder what the true wee shite Hugh Keevins saying the day after that crap he wrote at 3pm yesterday. You’d have thought a proper journalist would have a clue! The mans an embarrassment . Well he does write for the daily Ranger.

    I wouldn’t expect the Rev Stu to make such a huge howler if he were writing for a tabloid.. Would you now Rev?

  189. John Main

    “it is as bad as it is possible to be”

    Naw, plenty of places where things are a lot worse.

    Innarestin to compare national stereotypes.

    English: stoic, stiff upper lip, understatement.

    Scot (Wings BTL): hysterical, ranting, exaggerating beyond recognition.

    I find this kind of inability to see things in any kind of perspective insulting and demeaning to my idea of Scotland as a rational nation. This deranged hyperbole paints us Scots in a very bad light. Newcomers on here read this kind of moonhowling and recoil in amusement.

    The claim that WM is as bad as it is possible to be can be disproved with one word:


    Soz, Confused.

  190. Ian Brotherhood

    @Dorothy –

    Belated happy birthday, hope it was a good ‘un.


  191. James Che

    The hopeless inept devolved government in Scotland is the English government by Legislation under the English Crown because Westminster derives it Sovereignty from that Crown of England resting in Westminster.

    The Scots are Sovereign in Scotland over the Crown, the Crown of England is not Sovereign in Scotland.

    Thus we find the devolved government legislated by English Crown law, not Sovereign in Scotland,
    the English Crown office prosecuter and Courts working under English law legislation, in Scotland
    not Sovereign in Scotland,

    We need to define what is and what is not the laws and legislation of the Sovereign Scots,
    For we are “not” a united kingdom under one Crown Sovereignty.

  192. James Che

    Dorothy Devine,

    Happy belated birthday, hope you had a lovely day 🙂


    EBENEZER SCROGGIE believes Scots ought to stick with nurse, whatever turns you on EB.
    Btw. the ref was not once in a lifetime except, according to my research, in the scribblings of unionist journalists. The ref itself had a number of elements, the weight of UK government misinformation fear mongering and «threats», the counting process, the postal vote inconsistencies, foreign observers disquiet etc the SNP to have picked up on.
    Anyway…..there will never be another of the time wasting things, if reason and common sense prevail.

  194. Captain Yossarian

    Confused – “and Westminster the benchmark for corruption”. The Fabiani Inquiry is now the benchmark for political corruption. You had the chance to clean out the stables then; you didn’t take it and now look at the mess we are all in. Westminster cleaned out the stables when they had the chance and now Johnson is gone, along with Dorries, Reese Mogg and all the rest of that bunch.

  195. Ebenezer Scroggie


    There are so many examples of SNumPty incompetence that they are too many to list here, but I’ll give a couple of samples.

    They are all examples of what happens when a pissant coutry declares UDI.

    I’m old enough to remember when Rhodesia was a prosperous place with a vibrant and thriving economy. Then they declared UDI and now Zimbabwe is, economically, a shit hole as a result of blithering incompetence in government.

    One spectacular example of SNumPty incompetence has been shown in the case of what should have been a very simple task of acquiring two ferries on a fixed price contract with a fixed deadline for delivery.

    What should have been the winning bid came from a Turkish shipyard which has the capacity for building two ships simultaneously in the same yard. Their price, which had an accompanying fully funded Performance Bond, was for £75M.

    Wee Jimmy awarded the contract, for £95M not £75M, to a shipyard which had very great difficulty in building only one ship at a time as their yard was only built for one ship at a time. There was no accompanying Performance Bond and the paperwork and other files surrounding that matter have been made to disappear, much in the same way that many of the SNP’s accounts for last year vanished and so could not be properly audited.

    Despite, or perhaps because of, the fact that both Contractor and Client are owned by the same parent Company, ie the Scottish gumment, the poxy things are more than five years late and the price tag has ballooned from £75M through £95M to more than £300M. One of them has already had to go into drydock for its five-yearly arse scrape and repaint.

    Another example is the appalling and very grubby deal she did with Cameron and Greensill and Gupta in exchange for a promise that Gupta would create 2,000 jobs in an aluminium alloy castings factory. Of course the jobs never materialised, but Gupta got an aluminium smelter and two hydroelectic plants and half the surface area of Ben Nevis for next to fuckall. Meanwhile the Scottish government is saddled with potential debt liabilities of hundreds of millions of Pounds if Gupta reneges on his debts (as I, personally, believe is quite probable).

    Take a look at The Economist channel on YouTube and watch their two very well informed documentaries on the Gupta/Greensill/Cameron/Sturgeon relationship.

    These are just a couple of examples of how awful the Scottish ‘government’ is.

    An amputated and isolated Jockistan would be right down there with the lowest of the low in the third world. A banana republic without an ability to grow bananas or pineapples; and with an international credit rating of C- in the money markets for the MacPoond or Groat or whatever they would call their unbacked fiat currency.

  196. Northcode

    Alf Baird

    Nae need tae apologeese, Alf. Nae need ata.

    Sometimes my humour gets me into all sorts of trouble. Maybe I should heed my own advice in a previous post on this thread about the dangers of attempting to use humour in rhetoric.

    You said:

    ”Sae hits guid that the fowk here developed oor ain langage – whit we noo ken as ‘Scots’, tho hits aye makkit inhabile by oor doun-hauders. “

    I’m not an academic by any definition, but it’s clear, even to a layman like myself, that the language of a people and its culture cannot be separated without destroying that people’s culture and heritage.

    With that in mind it makes perfect sense that the language of a people targeted for colonisation is almost the first, if not the first, cultural feature to be debased by the coloniser.

  197. Southernbystander

    John Main, 5 Aug, 8:46pm:

    ‘If you take a proud, free, independent country like Pakistan, for example. The humblest, most poorly educated Pakistani knows that no white Christian could ever be allowed to lead her country. No matter how many generations had been spent in the country. And that’s exactly how it should be.’

    Why? The sign of a healthy open democracy is that any citizen can aspire to leading the nation. Is the fact a Muslim is FM and PM an African-born Hindu a problem then, and not how it should be? And where do the restrictions end? Could an English person never lead an independent Scotland? A person of Chinese origin as FM pr PM? Are black MPs with strong Caribbean roots a problem?

    I think the whole concept of having ethnic and religious requirements to lead a country (and by logic, any position of authority that has real power and visibility) as a slippery slope to ethno-religious nationalism, i.e. the kind of thing you get in the violently murderous sectarian society that is Pakistan.

  198. James Che

    The laws passed by the English Crown given royal assent in the devolved westminiter legislated government to Scotland legally are not laws in Scotland,

    The devolved Westminster government legislation called the “Scotland Act” given royal assent under the Crown of England is not feasable in its Sovereignty in Scotland either,

    We all witnessed that the king of England was not Crowned king of the Country of Scotland or of Scots in 2023,
    Because our Realm and kingdom of Scotland does not come under a united crown or the one kingdom of Great Britain.

    It is impossible to do so without breaching the 1707 political treaty of union,

    The laws coming through the devolved Government legislated from Westminster to Scotland are in breach of the treaty. Because of the Claim of Right of Sovereignty in Scotland and in the treaty, many times reaffirmed,

    So do Scots have to obey the English legislated laws under the Crown of England
    on Gender?
    On Climate Change or Ulez 15 or 20 minute cities,?
    The Hate crime bill.?
    The Crown office telling us not to talk about the alphabet women?
    Re-wilding Scotland?
    Closing down our Businesses,
    On Virus lockdowns,
    Or ending our farming and fishing,
    Free ports,
    The Rape clause bill,
    To name a few,

    Because all these have came through a devolved but under the English Crown of Westminster legislated government claiming Sovereignty of Crown in England and “over” Scotland.?

    Which we all know is a false Claim in its relation to sovereign Scots in Scotland which includes the territory of Scotland,

    It is truely amazing that we have not thought earlier of the validity of the Crown of England resting in Westminster legislation imposing itself over The Sovereignty of Scots, of dissolving, obsoleting Scots laws, and making a new set of laws for Sovereign Scots from The Crown legislation of England in the devolved government to Scotland,

    When it comes to deciding if Scotland wants to leave the treaty of union it is not up to Crown Courts of Englands Crown at all to make that decision without breaching the treaty of union which incorporated the Scots Claim of right of Sovereignty.

    We need to define for Scotland what is Scots law and what is Englands Crown law imposed through Colonialism on Scotland,

    For one is illegal not just in Scotland, but internationally.

  199. Ebenezer Scroggie

    The laws passed by the democratic parliament of the United Kingdom apply to whole of the United Kingdom and beyond, even to the nutjobs who fondly imagine that The United Kingdom doesn’t exist.

    Even the profoundly undemocratic Orders in Council apply to all of us.

  200. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    Alf Baird writes (12.38): “Though for sure peoples have come here, often ‘invaders’, and each brought their myths with them. This included the Gaels, and before them the Romans, then the Vikings, and the English – or ‘customary foe’. Each group also brought, and sought to impose, their languages, and propensity to re-name places in their image, and erect monuments to their glory. Amidst all this comings and goings the poor old indigenous Picts just carried on as best they could. Sae hits guid that the fowk here developed oor ain langage – whit we noo ken as ‘Scots’, tho hits aye makkit inhabile by oor doun-hauders.”
    Alf, with all the respect I can muster, your perpetually reiterated, obdurately fact-resistant, dogma that the Germanic, Northumbrian-engendered, “Scots” language you promote is somehow the indigenous linguistic heir of P-Celtic Picts, while the (historically closely related to Pictish) language of the Q-Celtic Gaels (ie the actual eponymous “Scots”!) is disparaged by you as the language of foreign invaders, is becoming unforgivable.

  201. North Chiel

    “James Che @0310” . Also where is the devolved (exact equivalent ) English Parliament James ? With the exact equivalent PR voting system , & with the exact same devolved powers . If there is a 1707 union treaty then how can Westminster “ devolve “ powers to a Scottish legislature when we are apparently one of the 2 Kingdoms within the “ so called “union, without having an equivalent English legislature?
    Where is the devolved English Parliament and the equivalent English Act ? Of course the obvious answer is that Westminster is the English Parliament .

  202. Alf Baird

    Ebenezer Scroggie @ 2:29 pm

    “An amputated and isolated Jockistan”

    In response to your anti-Scottish frenzy, worth noting that our colonial administration’s ferries policy (Transport Scotland), ferry procurement (CMAL), and ferry building (Fergusons) is not led by Scots. In addition, it seems all too easy to put a shipyard out of business whenever it is tasked to build poorly specified and unproven prototype designs that are subject to constant and costly changes during construction; and there is something of a long track record here in that regard.

    As proposed several times now over the past two decades or so, it would be far more sensible to build proven ferry designs and appoint those with the right education and experience (even if they happen to be Scottish!); however I expect we may need to be independent first before we cease our ‘dependence’ on a mediocre meritocracy sent from the mother country to make our decisions for us.

  203. Ebenezer Scroggie

    What the hell is this fetish with language all about?

    English is the lingua franca (oops!) of the United Kingdom.

    Live with it. Don’t struggle against it. It just is.

    Less than 1% pf us in Scotland speak Gaelic. Rather less than those of us who speak Urdu and Punjabi and Cantonese as their mother tongue.

    None of that contradicts the fact that we’re aa’ Jock Tamson’s bairns.

    Let’s get along.

  204. Ebenezer Scroggie

    “The poor old indigenous Picts just carried on as best they could”

    What language did they speak?

    Did they talk like Rab C Nesbit?

  205. Effijy

    I see comments from Stephen Kinnock, the Labour MP son of socialist Labour multi millionaire Neil Kinnock, as shadow immigration minister that he would use the Tory Immigrant barges and he like the Tories says Labour will process the refugee application forms more quickly and that he will send failed applicants abroad.

    The only tiny different between red and blue English parties is the 6 month time frame but where do the workers come from to process so many so quickly?
    How long to recruit and train and proceed before any impact could be made?

    Is Kinnock also talking about using Rwanda at £169,000 per person or will he point a gun at them on the border of the war torn country they came from such as Syria?

    The few ideas and pledges Labour had have all virtually been dropped in favour of carrying on the Tory policies.

    Why would Scots want to vote for an English based party that ignored Scotland for 50 years and refuses us true democracy while maintaining the disastrous Tory Brexit plans that haven’t a clue.

  206. Dorothy Devine

    Northcode , James Che and Ian B , thank you – I had an excellent time eating for Scotland over four days – a diet is required now!

  207. James Che

    The Crown of England residing in Westminster Parliament authorising Westminster Sovereignty makes Westminster parliament a Parliament of England.

    The concept of Sovereignty lying with the Monarch and therefor in Westminster is purely a English construction,
    It has no parallel in Scotland, the people are Sovereign, ( see) Lord Cooper,.

    Thus we have the Westminster parliament of England as it was, pre-union, running Britain as it was lord of the Isles. Instead of lord of England,

    And Scotland, Ireland and Wales all suffering Englands crown rule by default of a lie and hood winking the other nations of Britain,
    The legislation passed under this false Crown and parliament sovereignty of great Britain cannot be laws passed into Scotland,
    That includes the Crown of England residing in a English parliament at Westminster passing the Crown in the court systems of Scotland,

    Scotland wears a different Sovereignty from England, the two kingdoms Sovereignty are not united,
    And this is agreed to by the political treaty of union,

    The national debt of one kingdom and one Sovereign parliament of Great Britain is highly debatable under these circumstances.

  208. Captain Yossarian

    Alf – Re ferries – My understanding is that it was the lack of an “insurance backed performance bond” that was and is the issue here. For an award to be placed without such a performance bond, it needs to be approved by a minster. Personally speaking, I wouldn’t have approved it, but someone did and he wasn’t English.

  209. robertkknight


    How can I put this succinctly…

    Fuck off, twat.

    There you go. Sorted!

  210. James Che

    North Chiel.

    You have hit the nail on the head,

    Nothing fits regards the political treaty of union when the analysis begins,
    If fact the articles themselves contradict each other on a Uniting of two king-doms

    And Westminster parliament of England has continued as it “was” pre union by simply rebranding its name.

  211. James Che

    Ebineezer Sroogie ,

    No they Don’t,

    Because there is no united kingdom, doh

    You have been conned by a salesman’s patter, because you want to be conned, it must be good for your finances or your ego before you willingly believe the speil.

  212. James Che

    ” The national debt” of Englands Crown Sovereignty parliament of Westminster in England could be highly debatable as it would claiming it was one United kingdom,
    But they sit as two contradictory different Sovereign entities and two separate kingdoms and realms.

    because the treasury rests in the parliament of England under their Crown and the Bank of England is connected to that parliament in England, it has no equal or parallel Sovereignty in Scotland.

  213. James Che

    Dorothy Divine,

    As a princess of Egypt living in Scotland slowly catching up with us oldies, I would forget about Dieting.
    You have enough problems contending with Scottish weather, and yoons trying take you’re natural ancient inheritance.of Scotland
    Live a little, and forget peer pressure,
    I swear I am getting closer to the ground but meeting everyone sideways first 😉

  214. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Academic answer to a lingustic question:

    Ebenezer Scroggie says:
    6 August, 2023 at 3:50 pm
    “The poor old indigenous Picts just carried on as best they could”

    What language did they speak?

    Did they talk like Rab C Nesbit?

    robertkknight says:
    6 August, 2023 at 4:43 pm

    How can I put this succinctly…

    Fuck off, twat.

    There you go. Sorted!

    So eloquently expressed in Pictish and perhaps Neanderthal language.

    Such people are allowed to vote. Even their children as young as 16 are allowed to vote.

    God help us all!

  215. Viscount Ennui

    I am still struggling to come to terms with what is understood to be the ‘Scottish identity’ and with respect to those who argue that we are distinct from the rest of the UK, sought-out some answers.
    I am not in favour of building a case for independence on genetics but this is a very interesting paper and worthy of a read:
    Nor am in favour of using language as a national identifier but hope that some gains can be made in preserving our linguistic heritage.
    The strongest card we could play in the drive towards independence is in the here and now and in demonstrating that Scotland has a political idology and a cultural identity that distinguishes us from those south of the border. Sadly, the positivity of 2014 has been lost as has our reputation for political and judicial competence and it will takes years to re-build our international profile if Brachform yields what we hope and expect it to.
    Someone out there will have the answers but unless we can unite around a common understanding of what it means to be ‘Scottish’ rather than ‘British’, and I do mean aside from a hatred of the Tories, then we will struggle to gain momentum. For all her political skills, NS was absolutely cr*p at articulating a persuasive vision for an independent nation.

  216. twathater

    It’s amazing that so many unionists and ex labour voters memories fail miserably when it comes to listing GROSS incompetence and WIDESPREAD corruption within the engerlish wm establishment, but their memory recall is working to perfection when it comes to listing the inadequacies and corruption within the colonial hr establishment, they also seem to forget that hr has a quota of unionist wankers who sit idly by on their well padded and well remunerated arses encouraging the unionist Sturgeon Nonce Party to add to their ongoing clusterfuck in governance

    The unionists are too stupid to realise that ATL and BTL comments wholeheartedly EXPOSE the corruption and incompetence of the Sturgeon Nonce Party so rather than berate their governance they should celebrate their incompetence and get us REAL independence supporters annoyed , and also point out the FABLED benefits of being in the union

  217. John Main

    Southern Bystander

    You beat about the bush a little but then admit what everybody knows to be true:

    Hell will freeze over before Pakistani patriots will accept a white Christian as leader of their country.

    The question is not whether this is morally right or wrong.

    The question is, is this factually accurate, and it is.

    The follow on question then, is why any Scottish patriot will accept the reverse side of the coin.

    This would not be an issue if we were talking about a National Treasure, somebody revered and honoured, someone of whom no Scot had a bad word to say.

    But we are not. A failure, a nonentity, a grifter, in place due to a fraudulent and illegal process, somebody who can only be explained by invoking a box ticking exercise where virtue signalling completely trumped any notion of seriousness or competence.

    A pretendy SNP leader, nodded into his place as FM in the wee, pretendy Parliament.

    We Sovereign Scots are going to remember this kick in the balls for many, many years to come.

  218. Chas

    Rev Stu

    It is clear that the comments on this thread have served their purpose and are now past their sell by date.

    Can you please pen a new article. After 20 or so comments, on the subject matter, Che, Baird and the rest of the nutters can come along and post their same shite over and over again.

    I often wonder if the aforementioned get their ‘medicines’ prescribed by a doctor or if they are purchased elsewhere?

    Rather than promote the possibilities of Independence their inane ramblings will actually put the sane and casual reader off the subject for years.

    Many thanks in anticipation of your assistance.

  219. John Main

    James Che

    Why this interest in descent from Egyptian royalty?

    This is Scotland. It’s 2023.

    Starting tomorrow, any one of us can self-Id as an Egyptian princess and nobody can say anything. In fact, I suspect it will be borderline illegal for any individual, business, educational establishment, employer or government department to question our choice of identity.

    I don’t fancy it myself, but anybody who does should actually start tomorrow, while the weather is warm. Egyptian women, even princesses, went bare breasted.

  220. Republicofscotland

    I’m not liking the Single Majority BiS plan, where we need to win twice. The double majority should lead straight to a declaration of independence.

    “The organisation proposes that pro-independence parties will seek a mandate from the Scottish people to begin the process of dissolving the Union, resulting in the country becoming an independent nation.

    “Once that mandate has been delivered and the process of independence initiated, Westminster may not pass laws that materially affect any aspect of Scotland or Scottish life without the full approval of the Scottish Parliament,” it adds.

    The four-page proposal takes into account two potential victory scenarios for Yes – a double-majority or single-majority mandate – at the General Election.

    Under the first scenario, winning a majority of both seats and votes for pro-independence parties will “establish that independence is the settled will of the Scottish people”.

    The single-majority mandate based on winning a majority of Scottish seats at Westminster would also be a vote to begin the process of independence, the BiS proposal states.

    Under this plan, it would provide a mandate for the Scotland Act to be amended so the Scottish Government has the power to hold a referendum on the constitution, at a date of its choosing.”

  221. Tinto Chiel

    @Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh 3.27: yes, can’t see how anyone could imagine Scots has any linguistic relationship with Pictish, and I have read and enjoyed Alf Baird’s Doun-Hauden and its colonialist argument.

    As for Gaelic being foreign, another Scots academic produced this cogent and well-argued paper a while ago which further questions the accepted Irish origins of the language:

  222. McDuff

    Right on! Scrap Gaelic. Few Scots speak that ancient stupid language and while we are at it bin kilts, few men wear them . And those daft country dances and awful ceilidhs, they are all so embarrassing. Also tartan and shortbread and oatcakes and tablet and those bloody bagpipes too.
    And when we have done all that what will be left ? ENGLAND.
    That suit you ok?

  223. Dan

    Captain Yossarian says: at 4:32 pm

    Alf – Re ferries – My understanding is that it was the lack of an “insurance backed performance bond” that was and is the issue here. For an award to be placed without such a performance bond, it needs to be approved by a minster. Personally speaking, I wouldn’t have approved it, but someone did and he wasn’t English.

    This is getting pretty tedious in constantly attempting to undermine or predetermine a whole country’s potential future success off the back of a small number of individuals’ past exploits who may or may not be Scottish, but also may or may not be unionists.
    The ferries situation is no doubt a muckle bag o shite, but let’s not forget the building of the Scottish Parliament building which was proposed to cost 40 mill and ended up 10 times higher at over 400 million. Who’s exploits was that monumental fuck up that won’t stand the test of time. Arty farty architectural design not unlike that wee primary school build you were involved in…

    Can’t you see we are in a political quagmire caused by the ongoing unresolved constitutional situation Scotland finds itself in. A sort of halfway house that is neither one thing or the other.
    This allows reams of lightweight, parasitic, and often dumb as fuck political careerists to surf the gravy train and seemingly get away with pretty much anything. If we try to hold supposedly nationalist politicians to account by kicking them out of office then unionists claim there is no desire for Scotland returning to self-governance.
    And it’s not like unionist politicians are some stellar performing force either, because if they were then folk would have voted for them. But they were also shit and guilty of exactly the same lacklustre performance as that of the NuSNP and Greens.

    All these political monkeys are holding us all back.
    I’ve stated this to you previously, I’m not a hardcore nationalist, more of a pro-competent thought through policy and an anti-corruption supporter, but the only way I think we can get proper reins on the politicians is by having more direct control over them to hold them to account, and that is something we can’t do in the current UK political setup because all these political chameleons can masquerade and get elected as being for something, then once in resort to not being that something they claimed to be.
    And this groundhog day cycle will just go on, and on, and on, until this bug in system is eliminated.

  224. Republicofscotland

    The tables are turning.

    “Kate Forbes, Alex Neil, Joan McAlpine, Joanna Cherry, Fergus Ewing and Michelle Thomson have all agreed to take part in The Ayes Have It! which has a ten day run and kicked off on Friday.

    An SNP source said: “Neither Humza Yousaf or Nicola Sturgeon will be happy to see all of these leading figures sharing a platform with Salmond.

    “It is further evidence that he is being accepted back into the fold and that it is now Sturgeon who finds herself frozen out.””

  225. Captain Yossarian

    Dan – I made the point that it was actually a Scotsman than waived the need for an insurance backed performance bond, simply because Alf stated earlier that it must have been an Englishman.

    One additional point for you though – Boris Johnson was removed by the Partygate Inquiry. Why wasn’t Nicola Sturgeon removed by the Fabiani Inquiry? That’s the difference, isn’t it?

  226. Bill Mclean

    off topic a bit
    Good evening Rev. Stuart, I am reasonably new to putting in a comment, hope you don’t mind, but on reading in the Herald about Police and SNP money, surely they will look into monies which I am sure would have been given to the Alphabetties to keep quiet about Alex Salmond. So far they are able to sleep at nights, but for how much longer???
    Mrs Bill Mclean

  227. John Main

    @Viscount Ennui 5:54

    That’s another good post.

    As always in politics, “It’s the economy stupid”.

    The recognition, finally, by Kenny MacAskill that the justification for Indy should be built on the economic case as foundational is an indicator of how things can go.

    I think it will take 10 years for the Scottish political elite to rediscover and demonstrate their economic and fiscal competence. Obviously, most of the current HR incumbents will have to be swept into the dustbin of history.

    That should allow an IndyRef 2 in 2034 with a good chance of getting a Yes response. So not the next HR parliament, nor the one after. But probably the one after that.

  228. Alf Baird

    Captain Yossarian @ 4:32 pm

    “My understanding is that it was the lack of an “insurance backed performance bond” that was and is the issue here.”

    This became an issue (due to lack of a UK shipbuilding loan guarantee scheme at the time, now rectified), but long after a very poor and risky ship specification prototype design was decided on by officials. Initial cost of £50m (since risen to £150m+) per boat was already mover than three times as much as a comparable size 100-car capacity ferry obtained by Pentland Ferries for £15m, the latter built and delivered (from Asia) within 2 years; and to prove the point the latter boat mv ‘Alfred’ is currently chartered to CalMac and running on the £150m+ mv ‘Glen Sannox’ intended route, Arran!!!

  229. James Che

    Viscount Ennui,

    In a way you answered yourself, in trying to distinguish Scots from British, you note there should be more of a identity distinction, not just language and gentics,
    Although they play a big part and parcel of identifying Scots along with a differing culture and mindset in General on many issues,

    I think one of the most important is recognising the ” Claim of Right”, for Scots, because, that as a nation, Scots hold monarchy in a alternate universe from the top down tier system of of the rest of the world and down South,
    They have held that belief for hundreds of years as a constant,

    That in of itself causes a distinction in Scots for not being easily Subdued by the governments, parliaments and Globalist ideology and extremists telling Scots to get back in their box.

    This is a rough translation of a sentence quote, “For rebellious Scots to Crush ” tells of the character and personality of Scots,

    It is a quality of the Scots spirit as much as it is of a language or culture,
    The romans also found this characteristics the further north they came,

    And although the “Declaration of Arbroath” makes claims for a specific purpose of Bruce, it also and gains consent from the pope in its day,
    It displays a distinction of personality and Character. A tenacity, a determination that no Scot should be subdued by the elite even by force, to the last hundred men left standing.

    Being Scottish seems to be more than just the Brave-heart, but a believe and moral code in what is right and wrong of ruling for a nation of people,
    And governments and monarchy are not at the top of the list in Scotland,
    Maintaining the freedom and independence of the nation is.
    It cannot be defined asone or two concepts in particular

    A few invading and landgrabbing and elite New Scots of their era that were rewarded with Scots land by a opposing Country were willing to take the crossing the palm with gold and silver,

    But the majority define themselves as a nation, a Country and always a Scot holding his own Sovereignty besides the overall view that all Scots are sovereign Scots.

    I suppose the feeling of being a Englishman in England in amonst all the immigrants is similar, except Sovereignty has been stolen from them and pinched by government which slowly deleted and buried the Common law of every person that used to be upheld in the Magna Carta,

    Englands “bill of rights” does not return sovereignty of common law to the man on the street down south,
    That is when Westminster parliament actually took it,

  230. James Che

    John Main.

    Obviously the original humour went over your head regards Egypt comments.

  231. Cameron Robson

    Anyone researching place names would be advised to check any notes made by the original Ordnance Survey map makers. The local place names could be replaced by English interpretations.

    I know of one local example in the Borders that once preserved not only the Gaelic place name, but amongst 19th century (approx) shepherds the prior ‘Welsh’or Cumbric place name.

  232. James Che


    Englands Crown in the parliament of England had no authority to pass laws into Scotland as of the political treaty of union 1707,
    Because the Scots are sovereign above the Crown in their own territory and kingdom of Scotland,
    It is not aUnited kingdom,

    If you believe in the Scots “Claim of Right”, that was rekindled and wrote as part of the agreement in the treaty.

    Come to think of it, Englands Crown had no authority pre- political union either.

  233. James Che

    Or as Sovereign Scots of the Claim of right notary wrote into the treaty of union, we could just leave,
    We do not need a Crown of England in the branch office of a Westminster legislated devolved government to Scotland permission as the other half of the treaty.

    You forget Englands crown in Westminster is not Sovereign of Great Britain or of the treaty of union,

  234. Dan

    @ Captain Yossarian

    She wasn’t removed because it suited those that hold serious power within the UK State.
    It’s just a fucking circus charade playing out with actors playing their bit parts in the different scenes and locations.
    You regularly state Alex Salmond is tarnished because of the stitch up. Are you happy about this? It’s just that you state that he is damaged goods but also seem to know he has been wrongly tarnished. Maybe instead of you accepting his predicament you could be actively trying to change that situation by railing hard against those in all positions that carried out the wrongful tarnishing. But you don’t seem to mention the likes of the Crown Agent or Lesley Evans, and their cohorts too much on here.

    You can’t be so naive as to think Sturgeon did it alone. There had to have been discussions with some very powerful folk in different institutions prior to them taking the path they did. Aspects of this have been covered in many articles over the years as Rev relentlessly sought to shine a light on as much as he could whilst keeping within the constraints we plebs are allowed to operate in.
    I could reel off the names of the Alphabetties on here but that would have severe implications for Stu, the site, and myself, so I can’t.
    Do you really think Miss H just fired off a message to the group that stated along the lines of “I think I know a way how we can do this and remain anonymous”, without such a process having first been devised by some extremely high up people in positions of power, influence, and ultimate control within the UK State who could guarantee such a process and protections. Coz if you do then I have a ferry to sell you.

  235. Alf Baird

    Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh @ 3:27 pm

    “Scots” language you promote”

    What is wrong with defending yer ain mither tongue? Scots language speakers clearly cannot depend on support for our language from English or Gaelic state-funded lobbyists.

    The Picts lived within most areas of Scotland at the time of formation of a Scottish Kingdom during the 800’s. It is not certain what group Pictish belonged to, although ‘it is believed to have been related to Brythonic and P-Celtic’. So there remains some uncertainty on that.

    The fact remains that over the past thousand years and more the Scots language developed throughout most of Scotland, and in particular in the areas inhabited by the Picts. Scots subsequently became the language of most Scots and arguably still is today despite it not being taught in schools. We all know why the language is still not taught even if some of us are not quite up to speed on postcolonial theory and the treatment of native language within colonial societies.

  236. Captain Yossarian

    Dan – I have the utmost respect for Salmond and so it’s not me you need to convince. The fact is he is now as unpopular as Prince Andrew with the general public. He was humiliated in a very public way and that has sunk into the public psyche and will not be erased.

    Was it an all-Scottish stitch-up? Yes, I believe it was. I remember Leslie Evans saying “Fair HR is in my DNA”. Perhaps you are forgetting, but I have experience of dealing with the Scottish civil service and lying to everyone and anyone, is in their DNA. Sturgeon said: “we are lucky to have them”, and that was the end of it.

    I reckon Operation Branchform though is a UK investigation. The Scottish Banks are involved because they have to report suspicious transactions and that has alerted the UK wide agencies. That’s just my guess.

  237. Breeks

    Can’t believe how enraged I am, but just learned there are Dentists in my locality who routinely skin their customers £17 .50 a month just for the merest “privilege” of staying on their books as customers.

    What a fkg racket.

    I hope not one of these thieving fkers ever got a brass farthing from the State to facilitate their career in extortion, and any who did should be publicly shamed and forced to fix teeth as Community Service.

  238. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Viscount Ennui at 5:54 pm.

    You typed,
    “The strongest card we could play in the drive towards independence is in the here and now and in demonstrating that Scotland has a political idology and a cultural identity that distinguishes us from those south of the border. Sadly, the positivity of 2014 has been lost as has our reputation for political and judicial competence and it will takes years to re-build our international profile if Brachform yields what we hope and expect it to.
    Someone out there will have the answers but unless we can unite around a common understanding of what it means to be ‘Scottish’ rather than ‘British’, and I do mean aside from a hatred of the Tories, then we will struggle to gain momentum. For all her political skills, NS was absolutely cr*p at articulating a persuasive vision for an independent nation.”

    I can’t fault anything you typed there. Something we should all think about.

  239. John Main

    @James Che 7:31

    That’s a stirring post.

    Trouble is, I read it and I can’t reconcile the almost mythic Scotland you describe with the actual Scotland in which HY is FM and keeper of the Great Seal.

    It’s a leap of cognitive dissonance too far for me. Maybes you should let us all into the secret of how you do it.

    Let’s reprise the facts. The SNP leadership election campaign did not follow due process and was marred by constitutionally illegal canvassing for HY. The membership count, and hence the number of votes eligible was fudged, leading to high profile resignations. The police got involved. One of the candidates went public with a demand the campaign be re-run openly and honestly, but she was subsequently silenced.

    The HR parliament connived at ignoring this flawed and fraudulent process and went on to rubber stamp Yousaf as FM.

    We rebellious Scots, whose belief in a moral code and right and wrong has atrophied to irrelevance, have supinely joined in the pretence that none of this matters.

    Hence, even on here, it is rarely mentioned.

  240. John Main


    “Scots subsequently became the language of most Scots and arguably still is today”

    I won’t argue with you about that, just deploy evidence.

    Hundreds of posts on this thread, with barely a handful in Scots.

    As is always the case.

    That is conclusive evidence Scots is certainly not the language of most. Unless the bulk of posters on here aren’t Scots at all.

  241. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 10:03 pm

    “Hundreds of posts on this thread, with barely a handful in Scots”

    It is not difficult to figure out why this is the case in a colonial society. As Albert Memmi explains:

    “The colonized is saved from illiteracy only to fall into linguistic dualism. This happens only if he is lucky, since most of the colonized will never have the good fortune to suffer the tortures of colonial bilingualism. They will never have anything but their native tongue; that is, a tongue which is neither written or read, permitting only uncertain and poor oral development.”

    This defines and explains the ‘rusted’ condition of the Scots language.

  242. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    Alf Baird writes (8.33 pm): “What is wrong with defending yer ain mither tongue? […] The fact remains that over the past thousand years and more the Scots language developed throughout most of Scotland, and in particular in the areas inhabited by the Picts.[…]”

    Alf, there is of course nothing whatsoever “wrong with defending yer ain mither tongue?” That is not at all what my increasingly exasperated complaint is. My gripe rather is over the kind of thing you have yet again written in the latter part of my quote from you above. As we see again, you rarely mention the “Scots” language without mentioning the Picts. You are thus embedding this unsustainable link in many susceptible minds, especially given that your prestige in other matters is justifiably so high. Nonetheless your origin myth for “Scots” remains complete mystification. A beguiling mantra. As noted, you yet again infer above (without citing evidence) some kind of linguistic continuity between “Scots” and Pictish. There is none. I have to assume you are actually perfectly aware of that. This compounds the mystery. Nor do you ever explicitly concede what I have tried to winkle out of you before, ie an admission that what you are really hinting at in your coyly veiled way is not actually “linguistic” but “DNA” continuity. Blood and soil, to be unhappily blunt. By all means please do disabuse me of that notion. But be that fraught matter as it may, you do also unmistakably imply linguistic continuity between a posited “indigenous” (from scratch?) Pictish and an “indigenous” (from scratch?) “Scots” — the connection apparently being to do with shared “terrain” (though granted you have in the past alluded without elaboration to “archeological finds”). I regret that you appear unhelpfully obtuse on this subject. Defend “yer ain mither tongue” by all means, but please leave the Picts out your apologia unless you are going to be very much more forthcoming and reference-supported regarding connections for which you are claiming validity.

    I would direct anyone seeking some academic bedrock to the DSL (Dictionaries of the Scots Language) webpage entitled “Scots: An Outline History”, here:

    And also to the fine Electric Scotland article linked to by Tinto Chiel (6 Aug, 6.39 pm).

  243. Brian Doonthetoon

    Ken whut?
    Maist o’ kin speak in Scots, but wi dinnae really ken wir daein’ it.
    It’s how wi speak ti wir peers, in the pub, or whatever.
    See what eh’ve jist typed?
    It’s a combination of Scots and English, that maist o’ us use everyday.
    Wur bilingual!

  244. Captain Yossarian

    Brian Doonthetoon- All agreed re the Viscount. He is a great contributor to these pages. He makes his point in a non-combative way. I try and do the same but it never works-out somehow.

  245. Ebenezer Scroggie

    The few wastrels who speak in phragman Irish Lallamas grunts now expect us to follow through with an imaginary unwritten language?

    What’s gone wrong here?

    Why are we spending so many billions on these imagineers?

  246. twathater

    @ ROS 6.35pm that article you linked to in the Sturgeon arselick rag is a whole load of excrement written on the toilet paper, Peter Bell has a couple of posts exposing the inconsistencies and stupidity of Bfs proposals, as Bell says Kemp another Sturgeon apologist and sycophant keeps referring to WM input when there should be none

  247. stuart mctavish

    Ian Brotherhood 5 August@10:30pm

    Better yet get might be to get it to write a constitution for the clans, by the clans, in the style of the founding fathers (or an ultimatum to the chiefs demanding a better share of the one set up years ago) – and a cunning plan to get back up and running in the style of Tesla, Earhart, Carnegie & Van Der Poel.

    That way doubters and policy bots can be encouraged to simply trust the plan and stick to the program.. and if we manage to get lost regardless, getting led astray by the imaginings of a truly adventurous woman is still a win in most men’s books (flag it, nag it, bag it, shag it, gag it jag it men in the style of Lineker, Adhern & Trudy notwithstanding).

    Bit late in saying so but found this to be a worthy substitute for the cartoon this week :

  248. Alf Baird

    Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh @ 10:56 pm

    “some kind of linguistic continuity between “Scots” and Pictish. There is none.”

    I tend to disagree, Fearghas. The archaeological record tells us that the Picts were the descendants of the Neolithic peoples who inhabited Scotland. There are at least 350 ancient monuments in Scotland of which 150 are prehistoric. These existed long before the Romans, Gaels, or the Vikings etc arrived in what we know as Scotland today.

    The Picts did not simply disappear after the Romans, Gaels or Vikings appeared. To a large extent they have been written out of ‘recent’ history, for some reason, post the formation of a Scottish Kingdom in the 800’s. But the historical record does not tell us that they were obliterated.

    A reasonable contention, therefore, is that the Picts became ‘Scots’ (as they did from their merger with Gaels to form a ‘Scottish’ Kingdom); Pictish culture since altered over time, and through mixing with others, as all cultures are so influenced.

    And then we have the formation and development of a unique Scots language within Scotland over the last thousand years and more. This linguistic development occurred throughout all the areas of Scotland inhabited by Pictish communities since and before formation of ‘Scotland’ and, one assumes, as the Picts were not obliterated, was/is spoken by the descendants of the Picts, since termed ‘Scots’. Gaelic language as you know has its own specific geographic areas of influence (also reflecting movement from Ireland into west coast areas), though I appreciate you dispute this and claim Gaelic to be at one time ‘indigenous’ across all of Scotland, though most observers consider this doubtful.

    Given that we know the term ‘Scots’ came from Ireland (which was itself known as ‘Scotia’), as did Gaelic culture and influence, there is at least some possibility that what we know of as ‘Scotland’ today could have instead been named ‘Pictland’, reflecting the indigenous Pictish communities as descendants of the Neolithic period, according to the archaeological record. Why this was not the case remains a question to be answered. (And had Scotland been named Pictland the Scots language might be known as ‘Pictish’?). As Ernest Renan noted: “Forgetting, I would say even historical error, is an essential factor in the creation of a nation”.

    One final point I note from postcolonial theory and many language research sources is that ‘a peoples’ mother language is believed to be rooted in their soul. This is perhaps why many Scots have a very close and natural affinity and connection to the Scots language. And equally I expect is why Gaels have a close connection to Gaelic, English to English and so on. Hence problems arise whenever an alien language is enforced on ‘a people’ (e.g. linguistic imperialism), which gives rise to inequalities in society, and worse. This also helps explain why peoples in self-determination conflict are linguistically divided.


    JOHN MAIN reiterates the glib American phrase «it’s the economy stupid». Prosaic and in a nationalist liberation context meaningless, pointless and so off target.
    The economy, getting it «right», has never been the driver of independence movements, ever. If it had been pitched at such a level most now sovereign states in Europe would still be held in the imperial grip of Austria-Hungary, Russia, Turkey, Great Britain, whose hold over Ireland was broken without any utterance of the economics shibboleth and as for Africa, India etc….
    From my reading it was William Wolfe who highlighted economics and made it the basis for «the case» for restoring Scottish sovereignty resulting in the «Scotland’s Oil» catch phrase. Effectively the driver of much of nationalist politicking ever since.
    A return to the basic, visceral, existential premiss of nationalism seems, to me, a more advantageous move. You can easily diss people’e economic notions till the cows come home, you cannot argue with a peoples sense of who or what they are whether English, French, American, Japanese or Scots and the «right» to have sovereignty over that «sense».

  250. John Main

    @Alf Baird

    We can counter your “reasonable contention” that the Picts became the Scots with the historical information stated in the Declaration of Arbroath, which boldly claims that the Scots “completely destroyed the Picts”.

    That leaves you with a bit of a conundrum, Alf: abandon your theory, or pour cold water over the claims of the D of A.

    The latter option is not going to go down well on here, so ca canny!

    Of course, you could get with the admirably rational policy suggested by Kenny MacAskill just the other day and work on building the foundational economic case for Indy.

    Probably more likely of success than appeals to our “souls”, given that most Scots are aligned with western beliefs in general, so don’t believe souls exist.

    Other than the Trans eejits, who claim to possess intangible bits of themselves trapped in the wrong body. But that’s a story for another day.

  251. John Main


    Sure, let’s continue with the failed approach of the next 9 years for what? Another 9 years?

    Why not another 90?

    Meantime, every year another few thousand Scots experiencing visceral nationalism will drop off their perches and be replaced, maybes 10 times over, with people who have come to “North Britain” only because rents are lower.

    And every one of these New Scots will be in the country purely and simply for what they can get.

    But no, you’re right TURABDIN, and me and Kenny MacAskill are wrong. Let’s harness the New Scot’s existential premise for nationalism to get Indy.

    But maybes throw us a bone? Put a time limit on it this time around. How many more years of appealing to our nationalist, Scots souls, our sense of outrage over Culloden and our instinctive kinship with the writers of the ancient guff before we get real and start seriously considering the bread and butter issues that concern Sovereign Scots and New Scots alike?

  252. Republicofscotland

    Yes Twathater, I had my doubts over BfS plan, as you rightly point out MacIntyre-Kemp is an acolyte of Sturgeon the betrayer, and he’s done well out of the status quo.

    Meanwhile the English Tory government might be set to revive a plan shelved in favour of sending asylum seekers to Rwanda.

    “However, the proposals were dropped after a feasibility study carried out by the Foreign Office declared Ascension Island unviable for various reasons, including inadequate power, water supplies and a lack of hospital on the island.”

    The once discussed location to house the asylum seekers is back on the cards. Ascension island is at least 4,000 miles away from England.

  253. John Main

    “inadequate power, water supplies, and a lack of hospital on the island”

    Don’t tell me, I know this one!

    It’s Tiree isn’t it? Naw? Barra then.

    Fit? Nane o them? Has to be Jura, defo.

  254. robbo


    Missed 1st

  255. Alf Baird

    John Main @ 9:33 am

    “Declaration of Arbroath, which boldly claims that the Scots “completely destroyed the Picts”.

    Of course such ‘bold’ claims may still be countered, not least because of the lack of evidence. The Romans and the Vikings also claimed to have devastated the Picts, and a great many other peoples too, only to suffer later at the hands of those they boldly claimed were no more. A ‘bold’ statement on a parchment is precisely that.

    Critical in the ‘manufacture’ of any nation, as Renan said, remains the matter of: “Forgetting, I would say even historical error, is an essential factor in the creation of a nation”. There are a great many examples.

    We can see how this phenomenon played out recently in these ‘United Kingdoms’, as in 1953, which magically transformed before our eyes into one ‘United Kingdom’, and with a single imperial state crowning ceremony confirming that historical error, and a people forgetting who or what they are in at least one of the twa ‘kingdoms’. Here, subordinate Scots (and Picts) are provided with a re-write of their history, oor native ‘elites’ buy the narrative and bend the knee, confirming the myth, as is aye the case here and elsewhere when oppressors rule the roost.

    History tells us that invaders arrive and hey presto, the locals are no more, their identity magically altered to become something else, their history re-written for them by the conqueror in his language. Britons become Romans, Picts become Scots (some become Norse for a while), Scots become Brits and so on. But ‘a people’ and an enduring culture do not necessarily disappear, do they…..

  256. Ebenezer Scroggie

    “And then we have the formation and development of a unique Scots language within Scotland over the last thousand years and more.”

    Which is spoken so eloquently by Rab C Nesbitt and his ilk.

  257. Johnlm

    Pissing off the Nigerians is not a good move.
    Who are the English going to get to invade Niger.

  258. Lenny Hartley

    Alf Baird 0741 re Picts, i have been doing a bit of research into Y DNA which as the name implies is taken from Male samples.
    The Pictish/Irish/creation myths are near identical in thst we came from from what is now Turkey and surrounding area via the Tyrollean Sea, Iberia ( for several hundred years) and thence to what is now The British Isles which geographically Ireland is part off.
    These people were Neolithic Farmers and were small in Stature, ave Hight 5.3” , dark skinned and many had blue eyes.
    These were the peoples which built the Megaliths on the Atlantic Seaboard from What is now France yp to Orkney , the latest Archaeology research suggests that these people were the first Celts and the Celtic Culture , Religion and Language Originated with them and spread eastwards from the Atlantic Seaboard and did not originate in Switzerland and Australia as is the generally believed.
    These people arrived around 6000 years and displaced or interbred the few hunter gatherers already staying in British Isle , around 1500 years later the Beaker people ftom the Stepps arrived.
    The beaker people were the first to use horses and were lactose tolerant into adulthood which possibly was the reason their ave hight was 5’ 7”.
    They interbred with Neolithic Farmers and in mainland Europe in many places was about a 50/50 split in dna, in the British Isles it is markedly different where males are 90% from Beaker People and Females 90% from Neolithic Farmers, so looks like the Beaker People who came to these Islands didnt bring their own Women.
    The Rev mentioned recently on Men taking part in Womens sport that the Average hight of a “British” women was 5’ 3” !
    Some wee bits
    The contemporary account of the Picts by the Honourable Bede said that the Picts were dark skinned and small in stature!
    90% of males in Scotland are from Beaker People, 10% of males in Scotland have Pictish DNA, however what i have found so far i cant tell if that Pictish DNA is Neolithic DNA.
    The Beaker people bypassed Sardinia, 97% of Sardinians have Neolithic DNA and are dark skinned and small in Stature.
    In my opinion the Declaration of Arbroath states that the Scots “Utterly Destroyed” the Picts as the “Scots” were wanting to distance them self in a plea to a Catholic Pope from the Celtic Church which was still prevalent in Scotland at the time and the Roman Church saw the Celtic Church as Heretics, therefore put the “Blame” on the Picts for the Heretical Celtic Church!
    3 skeleton’s from 4 thousand years ago on Rathlin Island at the turn off this Century had near identical dna to living fisherman in the bay of biscay.
    So beyond doubt that indigenous inhabitants of British Isles (and rest of Europe) were Neolithic Farmers later admixed with Beaker People to a greater or lessor extent.
    The Celtic Culture/religion/language came from Neolithic Farmers from the Atlantic Seaboard.
    Basically no difference from Irish, Scot, Pict. Or anybody else in Europe for that matter at a DNA level, only differences are cultural and Language.

  259. robertkknight


    Go away…

    There. Sorted!

  260. Johnlm

    i have been doing a bit of research into Y DNA which as the name implies is taken from Kirsty Blackman.

  261. jockmcx

    Wings twitter link seems to be working agaim!

  262. John Main

    Alf Baird

    Thanks for your reply.

    “a people and an enduring culture do not necessarily disappear do they”

    Hmmm. I don’t know the history books you read, but mine list umpteen peoples and cultures long since passed onto oblivion.

    “A bold statement on a parchment is precisely that”.

    Agreed – ancient guff. Shame so many on here continue to try to build Scotland’s future on it, but hey ho, they’ll wise up eventually.

    “Scots become Brits”. Innarestin you cite 1953 as the year that happened. I won’t be the first to have noticed that there is nothing like an existential war to forge a new national identity.

    Nothing would advance Scottish nationalism more than an aggressive, murderous invasion of Scotland by an rUK army. I expect the incumbents in WM are far too clever to ever make that mistake.

    “Oor native elites buy the narrative and bend the knee”.

    Sadly, we Sovereign Scots are now being faced with a choice of native elites to bend our knees to. I’ll leave it there – work calls.

  263. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    Alf writes (7.41 am): “The archaeological record tells us that the Picts were the descendants of the Neolithic peoples who inhabited Scotland. There are at least 350 ancient monuments in Scotland of which 150 are prehistoric. These existed long before the Romans, Gaels, or the Vikings etc arrived in what we know as Scotland today.”
    And also long before the ANGLES arrived! You never seem to mention the Anglian language, Alf, or the Northumbrian takeover of Lothian. You have ignored the DSL “Scots: An Outline History”webpage I linked to (6 Aug, 10.56 pm). So here, for readers is a shorter extract from another DSL (Dictionaries of the Scots Language) page:

    Scots, along with its closest relative English, is a member of the West Germanic family of languages, a group that also includes Afrikaans, Dutch, Flemish, Frisian, and German. It is a distinctive language, divergent from English since at least the fourteenth century. It shares with English a common ancestor: Old English, or Anglo-Saxon, the language that first emerged amongst Germanic incomers in south-east England during the fifth century CE, and which subsequently spread throughout much of the rest of the island of Britain.
    The North Germanic languages – Danish, Faroese, Icelandic, Norwegian, and Swedish – are more distantly related, although Scots has taken on many features of vocabulary and grammar from Old Norse, the ancestor-variety of this Scandinavian group. Scots has also ‘borrowed’ forms from non-Germanic languages, notably French, Gaelic, and Latin.”

    Readers will note there is no mention of Pictish or neolithics in that above passage.

    Alf, your untenable connection between the modern “Scots” language and ancient Pictish is internalised sophistry. Honestly held, of course. You do believe it, I know. But it is completely unsustainable, and your readers need to be alerted to that. Is there a single academic linguist you can quote for corroboration? Your obsessive insistence that the “Scots” language is root-indigenous and can be traced back to indigenous neolithics is chimeric, whatever DNA traces survive. Your legerdemain argumentation requires great wariness from the reader. You slip seamlessly from one elusive pseudo-historical horse to another, while all the while ignoring the massive Anglian Elephant trumpeting and stamping in the Lothian Parlour.

  264. Alf Baird

    Lenny Hartley @ 11:28 am

    “re Picts”

    Thanks for that, very interesting. Especially the religious divide.


    As long as there is «memory» cultures even languages do not die. The fact that some can talk of the «Picts» in the third millenium is a sign of the power of memory to recreate even from scant fragments such as outsider’s commentaries or the solid evidence of sculpture in stone.
    Documents and artefacts are more easy destroyed than is the wiping of memory, however «exoticized» that may become over time. Difference will out. Is knowing a difference coded in the DNA of a people? «Quha kens» as someone in the «auld tong» of the «lallanfowk» might have uttered before the anglo tsunami «streikit strand».

  266. Lenny Hartley

    Alf, i read a book about the Celtic Church in the 90’s which led me to to look further, official narrative is that no real difference to roman church apart from the Tonsures on Monks heads and dating of Easter. I discovered that in the same Area of Western Spain , Easter was dated differently by nearly neighbouring Roman Church Diocese, so thats not a big difference., not enough to make different types of Church. Reading a lot of Irish material I concluded that the Celtic Church was a mixture of the Alexandrian Christian Church and Celtic Paganism, mind you the Roman Church has a few bits from Pagan Religions like the Virgin Birth etc.
    So there is ample evidence to believe that the Roman Church would have thought the Celtic Church as Heretics, The Inquisition against the Ascetic Cathars was ongoing although they had mostly been massacred a century before. Like the Cathars the Celtic Church were Ascetic and although there were few if any Celtic Church’s left in Scotland by the 9th century the Culdee’s still had a foothold in Scotland in the 14th century they also practised a Ascetic lifestyle and many historians claim they were followers of the Celtic Church.
    So better to tell the Pope your good Roman Christians (especially after the entire Nation had been excommunicated!) and you had destroyed the heretical Picts!
    Thats my take anyways, other views are available !

  267. Alf Baird

    Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh @ 12:19 pm

    All languages are influenced by other languages, including the English and Gaelic languages. The main issue here is that the distinct Scots language has been developed by the people here in Scotland. It is oor ain mither tongue. An its still no given authority or taught tae fowk – unlike English and Gaelic. An we aw ken why that is.

    The Picts appear to have been conveniently written out of our history, particularly since the formation of a Scottish kingdom, and clearly more research is needed to get a better understanding of why this was the case.

  268. James Che

    You know whats interesting regards language interpretation.

    Not all, but a lot of the Scots languages are not wrote by native Scots whom grew up naturally speaking their mother tongue from bairns,

    Near us about ten years ago there was a survey being done to collect old Scots words to add to a dictionary that had already been Claim as slang English, the Colonisation of our languages started long, and someone not native speaking stuck the anglosised title to it. Claiming it as lazy English,

    We saw them going from door to door asking in non local accents with a few pages on a wee clip board and collecting words,

    When they got to our door we deliberate did not provide the many words we knew that were not on their list,

    Dang it all, we were not going to allow original words of Scots language to be stolen and reinvented by calling all the words lazy slang English,
    What was interesting and although we had not really thought where “exactly” the questioners in that survey originated themselves,

    Four to five weeks later the words and there interpretation was in one of the daily rags down south,

    Like I said we have our own list that does not parallel slang English, old English, or the English language that was enforced on Scots through the British education system.

    It is also important to realise Why and what affect it has on Scotlands Colonisation,

    Again I return to the comment I made to NorthCode a wee while ago,

    One of the reasons given in “Westminster records” for “Reforming Scots laws” was that down south in Westminster itself, they were unable to understand the Scots language descriding Scots laws.

    So instead of learning old Scots, within the political treaty of two kingdoms, they Colonised the treaty into English speaking only and made Scots laws under the Scots language Obsolete,

    It is important to remember your native tongue and words, to Know how the Scots laws of Scotland became Englands Westminsters new laws for Scotland.

    It is more than a language, it records your nation, you’re history and even you’re nations laws.

  269. Northcode

    Lenny Hartley @1:26pm

    So better to tell the Pope your good Roman Christians (especially after the entire Nation had been excommunicated!) and you had destroyed the heretical Picts

    If I understand you correctly you’re arguing that the writers of the Declaration of Arbroath, an appeal to the Pope of that time for help, threw in a bit of hyperbole – their claim that the Scots destroyed the Picts – in order to gain the Pope’s favour. A false claim, perhaps; or an exaggeration, at least.

    I’m persuaded by your argument, Lenny.

    Those writers of the DoA were educated, the DoA was written in Latin, and would have had a good knowledge of rhetoric; it seems unlikely that they wouldn’t have used a few rhetorical tricks to get what they wanted from the powerful Catholic Church of that time.

    I might be misinterpreting what you are saying, though, so correct me if you think I’ve misunderstood your argument.

  270. Republicofscotland


    Niger like many African nations is now fed up with the West plundering their resources, ECOWAS chair Bola Tinubu, via his western bosses is sabre rattling that ECOWAs nations will invade Niger unless it returns its puppet president to power.

    Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS).

    However a continent wide war might breakout in Africa if the ECOWAS nations invade Niger. Neighboring Burkina Faso, Mali and Guinea, which are also governed by military administrations that recently seized power by force, have all warned that any attack on Niger will be viewed as an attack on them too.

    Bola Tinubu the president of Nigeria, and chair of ECOWAS is well known USA asset. Documents reviewed by The Grayzone reveal Tinubu as a longtime US asset who was named as an accomplice in a massive drug running operation that saw him launder millions on behalf of a heroin-dealing relative.

    If ECOWAS gets its way, member states Benin, Cabo Verde, Côte d’Ivoire, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Sénégal and Togo will be pressured to send their soldiers to invade Niger.

    Will Africa go to war with itself to protect western imperialism, I certainly hope not.

  271. Lenny Hartley

    In my earlier comment about Celtic Church and Picts forgot to credit my auld mate Louis Mair from Aberdeenshire who first thought of a link between Celtic Church being seen as heretical and Declaration of Arbroath stating Picts wiped out. I just followed up on his thinking and did some research which to me proved the Celtic Church would have been seen as heretical to the Roman Church. So the Scots had to find a way of disassociating from the Celtic Church!

  272. John Main

    @RoS says:

    His usual pebble dashing.

    Here’s a wee list of the African nations where Wagner expedites colonialist Russti exploitation whilst keeping the local elites sweet:

    Sudan, CAR, Libya, Mozambique, Mali, Madagascar.

    Will Africa go to war with itself to protect Russti imperialism? I sure hope so. It will give the west an excuse to step in and wipe the orcs off the face of the earth.

  273. John Main


    Questioning the accuracy of parts of the Declaration of Arbroath is like questioning the accuracy of parts of the bible.

    To the faithful, these are heretical acts, calling for the most extreme sanction.

    I hope you know what you are doing!

  274. JGedd

    I’m no linguist so I’m not going to step into that argument. It does, however, create unnecessary divisions in independence circles. There are countries where there is more than one native language recognised so couldn’t an independent Scotland do likewise, instead of arguing about legitimacy?

    I would tentatively take issue with Alf Baird over his comment regarding the Picts being descendants of the Neolithic peoples of these islands. Unfortunately, the latest advances in DNA say otherwise. The results took the researchers by surprise in that they demonstrated that there had been replacement by incomers from Europe whose origins had been the Pontic Steppe. Their DNA replaced the Neolithic farmer genes whose origins had been via the near East.

    These people had formerly been named the Bell Beaker people who seemingly brought with them not only a style of ceramics ( why are people of the past usually named for the pots they made?) but also a suite of other advancements such as metal-working in which they were particularly skilled but also religious practices which centred on individuals and warrior elites.

    The Bell Beaker phenomenon had occurred throughout Europe but only in the British Isles could they conclude that there had been a replacement of population which was and is, in some quarters, controversial, overturning the previous view that it had not been people who travelled but the culture. The DNA confounded that, according to the DNA discoveries, at least as far as the British Isles was concerned. In other parts of Europe, although the new technologies were adopted, resulting in a change from Neolithic to the Bronze Age, the Neolithic farmer genes continued, merging with the steppe-related DNA of newcomers, descended from the pastoralist horsemen of the East.

    An example of this was found early on in this DNA investigation in Ireland with the investigation into the Rathlin Boys. These were three male skeletons from a cist burial in Rathlin Island which you will know is a virtual hop, step and jump away from the Scottish mainland. However, when they examined the DNA of these individuals and compared them with Balynahatty Woman whose remains were found in a passage grave typical of the Neolithic period, they were surprised to find no continuity in DNA.

    She was part of a well-established population who had originally brought farming to Ireland. and her genome showed her to be dark-skinned and brown-eyed and revealed her ancestry to be Middle Eastern. The Rathlin Boys’ ancestry was completely different and identified as being from the Pontic Steppe, with Yamnaya genes mixed with some Caucasian hunter-gatherer genes. In the roughly 1000 years between the burials they had found individuals with completely different genomes who hailed from different ancestral groups.

    A major international investigation into genomes of individual burials found the same story throughout the British Isles. The only explanation so far, is that the DNA of the Neolithic farmers disappeared as a new population took over from the megalith builders which was not the whole story in the rest of Europe where there was a mingling of Neolithic farmer genes with Steppe-related genes.

    Unless new information emerges, then that seems to be the story so far, resulting in the parody of a headline from the Daily Mail which I found quite amusing – ‘No One In Britain Is British.’ Perhaps the sub-editor who composed the headline had tongue-in-cheek at the time, cheekily realising the Daily Mail’s reputation for risible headlines that condense the article to
    the point of ridicule.

  275. James Che

    The “Declaration of Arbroath” outcome, was what is the most important to Scots and Scotland,

    If we are set on lies, and ignore the results,

    Then weapons of mass destruction would have been ignored, and there would have been no Iraq war,
    The Uk has the best history for producing the best story telling Lies, to invade and regime change another Country.

  276. Ebenezer Scroggie

    The Arbroath rag was nothing more than an anti-Protestant rant by the gang of thugs who dominated Scotland at the time in the absence of a good King; and a plea to their Pope to give themselves infinite power over the people of Scotland.

    The Pope said NO!

  277. James Che

    The best lie,

    The Scots are in a treaty of union with Westminster, even although we ( Westminster ) decided not to ask them to join. Westminster parliament statement 2023.

    Another perfect lie,
    We ( Westminster ) parliament made a political treaty of union with the Scottish parliament, then we ( Westminster ) extinguished the Scottish parliament from the Political treaty of union in 1707,


    «The rapid increase of our political and commercial relations with the Turkish Empire and the friendly intercourse established within the last few years between that Country and England, are the motives which induce the Author….»

    The above is taken from the preface to a grammar of Ottoman Turkish dated 1842 authored by a Scot, Major Charles Boyd and dedicated to another the Earl of Aberdeen.
    The are many more examples of the type «in the literature» well into the 20th century.
    Classic imperialism in all its glorious deception.

  279. Johnlm

    Another inexplicably poor African country with gold, oil and uranium.

    Could it be related to the Imperialist division of Africa into 50 odd countries consisting 10000 different states perchance? – and the subsequent opportunities for divide and rule..
    Are Niger’s islamist insurgents French sponsored I wonder?
    China maybe moving to protect the proposed trans-Saharan oil pipeline methinks.

    Main really doesn’t like the Russians does he?

  280. James Che

    Were they random people of Scotland selected for the DNA tests,
    Or did they go out of their way to select people who could trace their ancestory back to pre- union invasions of Scotland.

    If you selected DNA where I live you would not retrieve Scots or Pictish DNA,
    You might find a new horsey or lama kind of small holders DNA.

    But not old Scottish crofter’s or the coastal sea mans DNA.
    As they were shoved off their land and places in Scotland and shipped to Colonies of Britain,
    Dna should go back for Centuries however it must be assured it is the correct people being tested,
    If were were to test a DNA example in England, would you get english mans CNA or would you get the invaders of Englands DNA nowadays.
    So I presume this DNA samples were only taking from people living in Scotland invaders and after the union era,


    There were, as far as is known, no Protestants in the 14th century to be anti, mr EBENEZER SCROGGIE. As for the pontiff John XXII, he was a weather vane subject to mind changes depending on the political winds of his time. There is no record of his view on the Declaration per se, however the excommunication of Robert de Brus was rescinded, again, and he was styled king as a result. That is all rather suggestive of a YES.
    The use of the terms «rant», «rag», «thugs» is suggestive too, of a soul out of its depth.

  282. robbo

    Ebenezer Scroggie says:
    7 August, 2023 at 3:33 pm
    The Arbroath rag was nothing more than an anti-Protestant rant by the gang of thugs who dominated Scotland at the time in the absence of a good King; and a plea to their Pope to give themselves infinite power over the people of Scotland.

    The Pope said NO!


    You really are a stupid man. Please tell us what protestant King was on the throne of Scotland in or around 1320 which you refer to?

    You do realize protestants weren’t around then ANYWHERE! I think we all know you’re game on here.

  283. Confused



    martin luther had a fucking time machine from 1517

    and maybe a sonic screwdriver and an attractive assistant

    stop sniffin glue scroggie

    the drugs dont work

  284. Johnlm

    Thanks for your service – reading Scroggie’s posts so that we don’t have to.
    That was hilarious.

    Scroggie and Yossarian have certainly changed from the mild mannered ‘detached observers’ of Saturday.
    Two days is a long time in politics.

  285. Iain More

    If you are on fire and if you bend the knee to London, Rome, Trump or Putin then you arent worth pissing on.

  286. robbo

    Yes guys. Really is mindboggling that tumshie’s like that come on here peddling dribble.

    I should have used YOUR there btw- my typo .

  287. Lenny Hartley

    James Che The Y DNa samples are taken from a bone in the inner ear so that any contamination from Any contamination from archaeologists DNA in say the Victorian era would not affect the results, for comparison with modern residents of the British Isles they take samples from Volunteers that have documented family trees that go back in the local area (within 20 miles if i remember correctly back to before the era of mass transportation,ie trains.
    Please read attached which gives better explanation of Y DNA testing that i ever will be able too, however although relatively static there are mutations in the Y DNA over long periods of time which allow idendification Down to a Clan/family
    So if a Clan or family with a shared surname is known to have been living in a certain area, and the modern testing with proof of living in that area for generations says you are of that Clan or Surname you can be pretty sure your roots are in that area.
    For example the Armstrong Clan in the Borders has long claimed they are descended from Southern Picts, Y Dna tests have proven that at least some Armstrongs are of the same Y DNA Haplotype as bodies found in known Pitish grave yards.,of%20years%20in%20the%20past.

  288. Ebenezer Scroggie

    It is quite noticeable that many of the countries whose borders were arbitrarily drawn on maps as lines of Latitude or Longitude by Foreign Office wonks, without regard to human or physical geography, have turned out to be fuckups – sometimes including war with eachother.

    Which reminds me: I really must ask Craig Murray a question…

  289. Southernbystander

    JGedd (3:21), JamesChe (4:01)

    I think there is a misunderstanding here if the survey referred to is the one from 2019 published in Nature. this showed that the discrepancy was between Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples. It was the Neolitihc peoples who brought farming and that replaced the Mesoliths, unlike in mainland Europe. DNA was therefore taken from ‘6 Mesolithic and 67?Neolithic individuals found in Britain, dating 8500–2500?BC’. It is interesting to note all our ancestry is from Aegean peoples.

    As for the language issue, it seems clear that Scots and English share the same root (Old English / Anglo-Saxon) and thus explains why they are so similar and given we know when that arrived in these islands, any link to Neolithic times is untenable.

    We know pretty well the evolution of Old English to Modern so it makes me wonder about how Scots has evolved. Old English is incomprehensible so how has Scots changed?

  290. Ebenezer Scroggie


    Only you have referred to a protestant King in 1322. Nobody else. Certainly not I.

    The last successful Scottish King was Alexander III. He died when he and his horse broke their necks on a dark and stormy night when he foolishly rode from Burntisland towards his castle in Kinghorn and fell off a cliff.

    There’s a Victorian era memorial to him near where he fell. I’m told by a local historian the the actual local of the death is a little further along the modern road, almost exactly where there is a small railway signal thingy.

    His death, because he had no male heir and, unknown to him at the time his young bride was pregnant with their the future daughter, led to turbulent times during which the high heidyins turned to the English King Edward to adjudicate who should be the king-replacement in Scotland.

    Then there ensued Balliol and all that crap.

    The Claim of Right and its contemporary the Bill of Rights were both anti-Protestant rants.

    I should have that clearer for the hard of understanding and for pig-ignorant.

  291. Republicofscotland


    Its Main’s job not to like them, and to bolster the flagging Africom.

    The Europeans are that stupid or involved that they don’t see that they are now part of the US empire coming under (EUCOM).

    The Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary was extended to Europe years ago, and most Europeans didn’t even notice it had, its now being further extended via Nato to the South China seas.

  292. Derek Rogers

    TURABDIN says @ 7 August, 2023 at 3:43 pm:
    …a grammar of Ottoman Turkish dated 1842 authored by a Scot…Classic imperialism in all its glorious deception.

    He was writing a grammar of the Turkish language, you dick-head, so that foreigners could learn it! (And a very good grammar it was too, according to my brief examination of the .pdf.) No colonialism or suppression involved at all – the Ottoman Empire was very tolerant of minorities. If you’d known anything about the Ottoman Empire, you’d have known that.

    hwai downt yuw get sum faks bifor yuw bump dq gumz?

    On an unrelated topic, it’s good to see mainstream opinion here moving towards UDI. Those UK buggers will never give it to us (one-third of their landmass, 30pcent of their economy, and their seat on the UN Security Council – wi hav tae taek it fae euwrselz.

  293. Republicofscotland

    And I’ll tell you another thing Johnlm, there’s a minimum of 12,000 US military personnel in the dis-untied ingdom or the unsinkable USA aircraft as its better known abroad.

    Most can be found across many English RAF bases, some hosting Nato personnel in this Dis-united kingdom.

    But what’s real eye opener is that almost 200 US military personnel are floating around the dis-united kingdom and no one is allowed to know where they are, Kenny MacAskill asked but was told he wouldn’t get a proper answer as to their whereabouts.

    This doesn’t even take in the personnel from the US intelligence community that are stationed in the dis-united kingdom.

    The integration with the US as Australians are finding out is frightening, the NSA jointly runs GCHQ’s installation at Bude in Cornwall.

    The independence movement is taking on not just the dis-untied kingdoms security services, but those of the US empire which has a vested interest in keeping the dis-united kingdom together.

  294. robbo

    Ebenezer Scroggie says:
    7 August, 2023 at 5:17 pm

    Only you have referred to a protestant King in 1322. Nobody else. Certainly not I.


    I’ll let someone else reply as I can’t be arsed. I don’t have the patience for people like you.


  295. JGedd

    James Che @ 4.01pm

    If you are referring to the DNA research I mentioned, then it involved the remains of the long dead from the Neolithic and Bronze Age which are seen as distinct time periods in the ancient past. It did not involve modern populations except that research into Y-chromosome distribution already showed that the marker for Steppe-related ancestry is R1b which is predominant among males throughout northern Europe and is heavily represented in Scotland and Ireland.

    What it demonstrates is that there were two major changes in the prehistory of the British Isle, one an influx of peoples originating in the Middle East who brought farming and then the Bell Beaker phenomenon which ushered in the Bronze Age with its advanced metallurgy. The previous thinking had been that the Bell Beaker culture had been adopted by the population that had existed throughout the Neolithic in the British Isles but the DNA research showed that there had been large scale population replacement by the Bell Beaker people who had originated in the Pontic Steppe.

    In fact, that was not the first time there had been population replacement. Cheddar Gorge Man came from a hunter gatherer group who roamed the landscape of their hunting territories. They were very dark-skinned but with blue eyes. This genetic phenotype no longer exists and indeed the hunter gatherers were replaced by Neolithic farmers.

    I don’t understand why people should be disturbed by the research that shows replacement events. These were our ancestors. We can’t choose our ancestors.

    Replacement sometimes happens but under certain circumstances. In the case of the hunter gatherers of Cheddar Gorge these would have been small scattered groups whose viability would be vulnerable to random extinction events. They could have been threatened by the pathogens that the Neolithic farming population brought with them since many common illnesses today are from the introduction of animal husbandry eg measles and chickenpox. These are seen as (usually) not deadly diseases nowadays but in populations that had not acquired immunity they could be. ( As happened to indigenous Amerindians when Europeans arrived on their continent.)

    As well as which, any small groups of survivors who merged with the new people might have their genes disappear into the growing gene pool and their contribution would be so vanishingly small over many generations as to be beyond detection.

  296. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Craig Murray,

    With your experience of maritime borders, can you think of any internationally agreed maritime border which is defined by a point on a coastline and a projected Rhumb line or Great Circle on a cardinal point of the True compass?

    I cannot.

    Normally the maritime border involves the ground truth of hypsography and bathymetry and such complexities as estuarine thalwegs.

    Such borders can become quite heated.

    One example in which I became involved followed a nasty international incident a couple of decades ago when the Royal Navy sent a smally boat full of armed matelots into Iran’s territorial waters adjacent to the Shatt al Arab.

    The Brits were still arrogant long after the British Empire collapsed in the 1940s.

    After the war to end all wars Britain was the colonial power in both Mesopotamia and Persia. In what is now the province of Basrah the Brits did not have the resources to garrison large numbers of ground troops, so they experimented with the newfangled Royal Air Force to control the mass of tribes and small villages on the ground.

    Any village which did not bend their knees to the Empire or failed to pay their taxes to fund the occupation was severely punished. The standard method was to use aircraft to lay a carpet of anti-personnel mines encircling the errant village and then to bomb the village with poison gas to drive the villagers into the minefield.

    Winston Churchill gleefully reported to Parliament that this was having “an excellent moral effect” (his actual words) on the tribesmen. The RAF commander in the area at the time was Wing Commander Arthur Harris. You may have heard of him in the small matter of the much later, and no less ruthless, bombing of Dresden and Hamburg et al.

    Meanwhile, Churchill was promoting the Royal Navy’s conversion from coal to oil. To that effect he helped to establish the Anglo-Persian oil company to exploit the infinite reserve of dirt cheap oil in what we now know as Iran. Anglo-Persian subsequently became Anglo-Iranian and then British Petroleum and then BP and then got swallowed up by the American Oil Company (Amoco), but still trades under the name BP so then when another Amoco fuckup like Deepwater Horizon occurs it can be blamed on the Brits.

    Onyhoo, the fact remains that there is an arrogance within the Foreign Office and in MoD’s Main Building that Britain should determine who owns what in the vicinity of the Shatt al Arab waterway and its outflow into what Britain insists is the Persian (sic) Gulf.

    During GW2 Pusser sent a Frigate or Destroyer as far in to the oufall of the Shatt and then despatched a RIB full of Jolly Jacks (and a Jackeline) armed with SA80s, into Iranian waters to see what might happen.

    The Iranians caught them bang to rights. They confiscated the guns and the hand-held GPS units. During the capture the Iranians had hovered a helicopter over the boat, filming though the side door they showed the boat below and the camera zoomed in on the co-ordinates shown on a small hand-held GPS.

    The captured prisoners were actually treated very well and were soon released. They were given clean new civvy clothes. The female matelot, who had a figure like a sack of spanners, was given a horizontally striped top, which I thought was bit cruel, but otherwise they were all well and respectfully treated.
    It all came down to which border line Pusser chose to believe.

    One was based on the 19th century thalweg of the Shatt’s outflow in the days when Britain ruled the roost in that whole area. The other was the UNCLOS-recognised equidistant line from the MLWS contour of The Admiralty survey.

    I was consulted, by the Brit side. and given access to the raw data of both the Iranian and British GPS units. It was abundantly clear that the Brits were in the wrong and the Iranians were in the right. Oops!

    So, that’s an example of how an international maritime border can become quite heated unless the line is justifiably established.

    I could also write a long ramble about the Sinai/Israeli maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba, in which I was also involved on the ground.

    I wonder if Craig Murray has any knowledge of any internationally maritime border being agreed by an East/West or North/South line being projected from a designated point on a coastline.

    Perhaps his little knowledge could be a dangerous thing.

  297. James Che

    I have three clan names as direct to grandparents and great grand parents that I know of and researched and married into a forth,

    So my children will have four clans Dna,
    But what I want to know is how is it ascertained by the DNA testers that proven beyond doubt they have Pictish DNA,
    Because Clans often adopted from outside their clans, and sometimes burials often contained mixed bodies if slain in battle, or from disease,
    Many clans also had foreign mercenaries in them too, for fighting and protection,

    So just curious of a definate identification process for the DNA of Pictish, Scots and others,

    Watson in “celtic name places” identifies northern picts, and in my endeavers metal detecting around Scotland from west to north it is noted that the north and north east of Scotland seemed to be one of the last noted stands of the picts along with the evidence of their forts,

    There is not much metal work around these forts to detect, however I have found plenty of imported flint, ( not naturally local) but not much pottery,

    Further down the coast I find pottery and beaker burials pots, so presuming by finds that I send to the musium there were peoples further up north, northeast of Scotland, that particular coast line prior to the beaker people in Scotland,
    Would these people be the original picts?

    Nothing would make me more chuffed than connecting archaeology, history, DNA and Scots Clans into a neat knit,.

    But just as in Archaeology no presumption can be made due to the importation of foreign elements.

  298. Ebenezer Scroggie

    “The Europeans are that stupid or involved that they don’t see that they are now part of the US empire coming under (EUCOM).

    The Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary was extended to Europe years ago, and most Europeans didn’t even notice it had, its now being further extended via Nato to the South China seas.”

    Good post, RoS.

    NATO has recently declared that the “North Atlantic” area of interest now extends Eastwards to include the Indian Ocean and the Pacific.

    So much for the “not one inch further than East Germany” promise made when the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union collapsed!

  299. James Che

    Slightly of topic drift,

    I see Climate Change extremist have interrupt The World cycling championships in the Caron Valley held in Scotland, endangering lifes.

    Of all the stupid moves by these extremists this has to take the biscuit in stupidity, DOH,

    There is no bloody engine or pollution in cycling. The Climate change mantra and ideology is to progress cycling and walking as far as I understand,

    They should be charged with loitering and obstructing a public highway, and jailed if it is a repeated offence,

    The dumb f..kers.

  300. Johnlm

    1st baron Ismay, the first Sec Gen of NATO is credited with saying that
    the purpose of NATO was “to keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down,” (c.1952?)
    This seems to me to explain a lot of what we see going on.

    In truth the same patterns can be seen long before that.

    The Canadians had Trotsky and others in custody in 1917 as they were heading back to Russia (with funds collected in the US) to start the revolution…. And they let them go ???

    Simultaneously the Germans were assisting Lenin to return in a sealed train.

    Germany to be kept fighting and then economically wrecked
    Russia destroyed with revolution
    The Western Front battles extended by perhaps another 18 months.
    USA/ England triumphant.

    Main maybe just a contrarian but his dislike of Russia/BRICS makes me think he could be ex army.

  301. Northcode

    This place is great.

    I’m learning so much from many of the brilliant posters on here.

    Scotland’s history and constitution, the languages of Scotland and demotic Scots, colonialism, genetics and DNA, Scots Law, the engineering behind energy production, Scottish politics, shipping and ferries, maritime law, the migrations of various peoples across the planet, even the influence of the Welsh on Patagonians, and much, much more.

    And some of the spats between those whose views and opinions differ are…well…quite interesting sometimes

    Like I said, this place is great.

  302. Republicofscotland

    So the foreign English government has contact my home town’s city council (Glasgow) to tell it that it is scoping out the river Clyde to place a floating prison barge there, sorry an immigration/asylum seeker barge to house them.

    So far council leader Susan Aitken has resisted accepting the English governments proposal, give it time I say.

    Its always interesting to note that prison barges are for brown skinned folk but white Yukies get luxury cruise liners and on site doctors and dentists, the hypocrisy is staggering.

  303. Republicofscotland

    “1st baron Ismay, the first Sec Gen of NATO is credited with saying that
    the purpose of NATO was “to keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down,” (c.1952?)
    This seems to me to explain a lot of what we see going on.”

    That’s right John its a well known remark, I guess it goes back to the Great Game or even further back, between England and Russia, the English feared the Russians moving on India, where London forced the Indian’s to produce Opium that were forced on the Chinese via gunboat diplomacy, and the Russian’s feared English interference in Central Asia, in my opinion the Great Game never ended.

    After the fall of the Soviet Union, Nato had no remit and had to find ways to make itself look purposeful as national countries military’s spending dipped and several US president bemoaned this.

    Western created wars in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and the use of depleted uranium shells in Kosovo, Bosnia and one or two of the afore mentioned countries mostly (US) boosted Nato and the MIC, this latest constructed conflict by the West has seen Nato’s stock soar among the MIC and unaware European citizens.

    Mearsheimer and Mate have a brilliant discussion on it at the Grayzone, they also mention the late but excellent Steve Cohen.

    You’ll find it here but I can’t link to the exact story due to banned words in here.

  304. James Che

    North Code.

    This place is great, I also have learned so much from Stu and his Wee Blue Book and other posters here over many years,
    How about Robert Pheffers opinion that Britain is Bi- partite as a Country,

    and new subjects and topics keep arriving daily

  305. Northcode

    The dumb f..kers.

    James Che! Wash your mouth out with soap this instant. I have to say, this kind of language is not like you, James. Not like you at all. What the devil has gotten into you – the devil himself by the looks of it. 🙂

  306. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Those barges should be moored in South Georgia and West Falkland and St Kilda. Or, much worse, Peterhead.

  307. James Jones

    Northcode at 6:57 pm.

    I thought you’d declared you were leaving?

    Ah thought you’d say ye wur goin awa?


  308. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Honkers was largely, mostly actually, created by Scotsmen for the benefit of Scotsmen and other fellow Brits.

    As was The United Kingdom which some Separatista onanists want to wish out of existence.

    Honkers was a lease for 99 years. The UK, similarly created by Scotsmen for the benefit of Scotsmen, is for life.

  309. Alf Baird

    JGedd @ 3:21 pm

    “Picts being descendants of the Neolithic peoples”

    Its not just my comment, rather more based on others research findings and archaeological investigation. Some examples here:

    The Picts are regarded as descendants of the indigenous native Iron Age tribes of Scotland. The Pictish period is generally taken to run from AD 79 when the Romans first advanced into Caledonia north of the Forth-Clyde isthmus, until AD 842/900 and establishment of the King Kenneth Mac Alpin dynasty which joined the Picts together with the Dalriada Scots to create a single Scots nation (Foster 2001).

    Prior to the Norse invasion, Orkney was regarded as “a flourishing province of the Pictish kingdom” (Ritchie 1985, 183). Here is depicted an area rich in agriculture, livestock and seafood, with a mature spiritual environment embedded in a landscape of magnificent monumental architecture stretching back well into the Neolithic period (Renfrew 1985).

    Reflecting development of Christianity, Fergus the Pict, bishop of the Scots (Fergustus Episcopus Scotiae Pictus), was present at a council of Rome in ca. 721; it is believed this is the same Fergus commemorated in Caithness, at Halkirk and Wick (Grigg 2018, 73). Pictish types of grave structure and symbol stones were found at Ackergill in Caithness.

    Caithness subsequently became a mainland extension of the earldom of Orkney under Norse rule. Norse settlers had moved south from Orkney into Caithness, and Sutherland also came under pressure (Clarkson 2010). Place names in both areas are Norse, until further south and the contact zone with the Picts is reached, where the language became more Pictish, and eventually more Gaelic after the union of the Scottish and Pictish kingdoms under Kenneth mac Alpin (Cummins 1995, 43).

    Here we see some of the impacts of language change due to evolving power structures and movement, though a key feature remains the indigenous Pictish groups who inhabited most of Scotland during the 1st millenium.

  310. Viscount Ennui

    So…….apropos previous posts, what I sense is that in order to gain an international profile and personal gravitas, NS latched-on to any contemporary trend to place herself at the forefront.
    Looked-after kids, immigrants, Ukraine, trans rights etc. I could go on but I am getting bored typing this stuff.
    The point is that she deviated in a very concious way from what I had always believed Scotland to be and appreciate now that much of that was derived from The Elightenment.
    The sad thing is that is was simply posturing because she had no passion for any of this apart from the gender stuf for obvious reasons.
    Bite into Sturgeon’s bannock and it is a thin layer of filo pastry surrounding a large expanse of air.
    The point I have been trying to make for some time is that there has been nothing of substance for a decade or so and that the vacuum she has created has stifled debate about the nation we are, and the nation that we will one day become.
    Her crime hs been to dilute ‘Scottishness’ and replace it with a woke agenda that serves no useful purpose to the indy movement.
    And all the while demonstrating that the Scots are cr*p at running a once-respected legal system, education, health, etc etc.
    Agaian, I am getting bored.
    In summary, NS was foisted into a political space that could have nurtured a nation but chose instead to fertilise her ego and financial health.
    A squalid individual who had not chance favoured her ambitions, would have been propping-up some third-rate law firm in Paisley.

  311. Northcode

    James Che @7:34pm

    Good point about the Wee Blue book, James.

    And of course the Rev. Stu Campbell should be applauded for creating this space for us in the first place.

  312. JGedd

    Southernbystander @ 5.07pm

    No real misunderstanding here. We are talking about two different time periods and two different population replacements.

    You are referring to the advent of farming in the British Isles brought – as I have already said – by a people who had moved over several generations from where the farming revolution had originated in the Middle East, spreading into Europe ( the LinearBKeramik culture ) until eventually spreading and evolving their culture throughout Europe, eventually arriving in the British Isles around 4000BC. Stone circles and henges were part of this spreading religious culture reaching its zenith, perhaps, in the British Isles with monumental communal tombs and megalithic sacred landscapes.

    Yes, these people might well have had Aegean ancestry, with dark skins and dark eyes just like modern populations from that airt. However, they were replaced by a people who brought their skill with metal-working, their lighter skins, eyes and hair colouring. These were called by archaeologists, Bell Beaker people, after their style of ceramics. Look around you. Do the Scots who have lived here for many generations with their freckles and pale skins (mostly) look like dark and interesting Aegean folk to you? I mean, I wish I could take a decent tan but I have to cover myself in Factor 100 sunblock or I burn to a crisp.

    A quote from Wikipedia:

    ‘In the Bell Beaker culture, high proportions (c. 50%) of steppe related ancestry are found in individuals from Germany, the Czech Republic, and Britain. The genetic turnover is most substantial in Britain, where around 90% of the gene pool was replaced within a few hundred years.

    Thus Britain and Ireland entered the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age didn’t just bring new technology to the British Isles but a new people whose ancestry was Steppe-related and originating in the Pontic Steppe, not the Mediterranean. Thus the ancestry of the Scots and Irish was changed with the coming of the Bronze Age. The arrival of the Eurasian Steppe people was c2400 BC

  313. George Ferguson

    I never knew so many WoS contributors were global strategists. Why do we need Government? I remember I went to an SNP selection event. S Hosie chaired the event and said what a wonderful demonstration of democracy the event was. I agreed with that at the time. Subsequently the winning candidate was subject to a Police Investigation. Dodgy financial. Buckets of cash in the fire engine. Nothing proved. Fast forward many years. Nothing has changed. Dodgy financials nothing proved. A fortune spent on Operation Branchform Nothing to see here. Incidentally the current FMs wife was a candidate spoke more about Palestine than Dundee West.

  314. Lenny Hartley

    Jgedd, only males 90% Bell Beakers in British Isles , females in British Isles 90% Neolithic Farmers stock. ( i wonder if that is why the Picts for example were said to have had a Matrilineal society, the females being the Indigenous population, as Bede said the Picts were small and dusky! )
    The British Isles has different balance between Bell Beaker people than most of Europe where it can be closely matched, Germany being an example. To me that suggests the Bell Beaker people who came to the British Isles only had enough room in their boats for Warriors and Horses , might have originally come over to Kernow for the Tin and liked Wee dusky women 🙂
    Other areas of Europe had little or no Bell Beaker people like Sardinia and the Basque Regions.
    Interesting to note that the North American Indians and Bell Beaker folk had common ancestry.

  315. Lenny Hartley

    James Che, re how do we know what we are looking at in the dim and distant past is what we think it is. We dont but the probability is what we think it is, for example some of the Pictish DNA has been sampled from two known Pictish burial grounds, one in East Neuk of Fife and the other Up North in Aberdeenshire/Morayshire , cant remember exactly . By taking DNA samples from those bodies it can be compared to existing DNA using method I mentioned previously.
    There are small differences in y DNA from Each Family group due to mutations , so Ethinicity, tribe, Family can be detected. Plenty of lectures from the experts on Youtube.

  316. Southernbystander

    JGedd, okay right, so you do refer to a later but contiguous period. So we have two significant population changes, the latter probably leading to the make up of the basis of who many of us are today, across the British Isles. I was confused because you spoke about a DNA analysis – do you have a link for that?

    The Picts confuse me but I was under the impression that as a group they have their origins later, in Iron Age.

  317. Republicofscotland

    “Incidentally the current FMs wife was a candidate spoke more about Palestine than Dundee West.”

    Maybe not so much now, I’d say one of the SNP’s string pullers is more aligned with Israel than Palestine.

    “Mmm … I love Angus,” Masot replied, apparently keen to let his companions know that Robertson was someone Israel could work with at a political level.”

    Said Shia Masot.

    And this.

    “An Israeli embassy official who plotted to “take down” MPs regarded as hostile has also set up a number of political organisations in the UK that operated as though entirely independent.

    Shai Masot was filmed covertly as he boasted about establishing several groups, at least one of which was intended to influence Labour party policy, while appearing to obscure their links to Israel.”

    Starmer used two ex-CIA heads (BAP) and Israel to help oust Corbyn and reshape the Labour party but not in a good way.

    Incidentally Starmer and Sturgeon are members of the deep world political Trilateral Commission where you need to be asked to join.

  318. Johnlm

    Thanks for the link. I don’t think I know Steve Cohen.

    Feeling flush once I bought ‘A very heavy agenda’ by Robbie Martin which goes into great detail on the neocons/neolibs. – and is now on YouTube in parts.

    Maybe you’ve heard of the McKinder World Island Theory which pinpoints the region to control world trade, and it just happens to be situated on country 404.
    With the Belt and Road Initiative advancing I think the USA can see the writing on the wall for their empire unless they pull out the stops now.

    ‘Lecture on Inflation and Dying Dollars by Dr Tan Kee Wee’ – on YouTube suggests that the US might need to get into a war with China soon.

    But then again it could all just be show business, run by the banksters.

  319. George Ferguson

    @RepublicofScotland 9:18pm
    I will try again. I don’t know what happened to my last post. I am dealing in facts.
    A selection event for Dundee West and the current FMs wife is a candidate to be a MP in Dundee West. Palestine Palestine Palestine was the narrative. And your expectation is that an Israel candidate will win out over the wife of the FM.

  320. Alf Baird

    JGedd @ 3:21 pm

    “Picts being descendants of the Neolithic peoples”

    Its not just my comment, rather more based on others research findings and archaeological investigation. Some examples here:

    The Picts are regarded as descendants of the indigenous native Iron Age tribes of Scotland. The Pictish period is generally taken to run from AD 79 when the Romans first advanced into Caledonia north of the Forth-Clyde isthmus, until AD 842/900 and establishment of the King Kenneth Mac Alpin dynasty which joined the Picts together with the Dalriada Scots to create a single Scots nation (Foster 2001).

    Prior to the Norse invasion, Orkney was regarded as “a flourishing province of the Pictish kingdom” (Ritchie 1985, 183). Here is depicted an area rich in agriculture, livestock and seafood, with a mature spiritual environment embedded in a landscape of magnificent monumental architecture stretching back well into the Neolithic period (Renfrew 1985).

    Reflecting development of Christianity, Fergus the Pict, bishop of the Scots (Fergustus Episcopus Scotiae Pictus), was present at a council of Rome in ca. 721; it is believed this is the same Fergus commemorated in Caithness, at Halkirk and Wick (Grigg 2018, 73). Pictish types of grave structure and symbol stones were found at Ackergill in Caithness.

    Caithness subsequently became a mainland extension of the earldom of Orkney under Norse rule. Norse se****rs had moved south from Orkney into Caithness, and Sutherland also came under pressure (Clarkson 2010). Place names in both areas are Norse, until further south and the contact zone with the Picts is reached, where the language became more Pictish, and eventually more Gaelic after the union of the Scottish and Pictish kingdoms under Kenneth mac Alpin (Cummins 1995, 43).

    Here we see some of the impacts of language change due to evolving power structures and movement, however a key feature remains the indigenous Pictish groups who continued to inhabit most of Scotland during the entire 1st millenium as descendants of the Neolithic period.

  321. JGedd

    Southernbystander @ 9.14pm

    I had a recent (accidental) clear out of links on various subjects.

    But here is one on the Beaker Phenomenon to go on with:

    Hope it works.

  322. Lenny Hartley

    Southernbystander Two distinct immigration events into Europe first from Anatolia or Asia Minor basically modern day Turkey, the Neolithic farmers characterised by small stature ave hight 5’ 3” and dark skin about 6000 years ago, these people where Megaliths and Celtic Culture/Language come from. 2nd invasion about 1500 years later Bell Beaker People from Eastern U k raine/ stepps area characterised by being taller ave hight 5’ 7” , can drink cows milk into adulthood and metalworkers bringing in Bronze age and horsemen.
    All Europeans originally come from these two immigration events.
    DNA tells us that mixture in Europe not same , Germany for example near 50/50 split
    Sardinia 90% + Neolithic Farmers , British Isles inc Ireland 90% males Bell Beaker, 90% female Neolithic. Every region of Europe different mix
    According to latest Archaeology, Neolithic Farmers on Atlantic seaboard is where Celtic Culture/Language evolved and spread East from there.
    Plenty lectures on you tube from educational establishments in Ireland, UK and USA.

  323. JGedd

    ‘The Picts are regarded as descendants of the indigenous native Iron Age tribes of Scotland.’

    I wouldn’t dispute that Alf, however, the Iron Age tribes would be after the Bronze Age replacement by the Beaker People had already taken place. The Iron Age is usually dated to have begun around 750BC whereas the Bronze Age began roughly c2400 BC.

  324. JGedd

    Sorry Southernbystander, messed up that link. Too late at night.

  325. George Ferguson

    Do the Neolithic aka new Stone Age, Mesolithic or Neanderthal or any such origin. Care about their origin. After all didn’t we all originate from 3 African Women. There has to be a guy in there somewhere. The reality of sexuality try explaining this to your grandchildren. We don’t bother “We are all Jock Tamsons bairns” Genetic science and the purity of race should be confined to the 1930s.

  326. Graf Midgehunter

    It’s a bit like sitting on a beach watching the waves build up, to then crash onto the shore and gently recede back to the sea.

    The Scroggies, Mains, ASA’s, Chas and all the rest of the Yoons, names that come and go with the tide. Each one enthused and infected with Mormonic dedication to educate the lost souls of WOS. A last, stubborn bastion of weird scotch parrots that refuse the enlightment that they bring.

    It’s like flogging a dead horse with some of the stuff they come up with, it’s been regurgitated 1000’s of times yet they still don’t get it.

    Piss off, go fck a lampost if it makes you happy, you ain’t making any headway here ya bunch of britnat tossers.

  327. Ebenezer Scroggie

    Thass nice, Herr Graf von Culloden.

    Did you know that there were more Scots and Germans than English on the losing side of that battle?

  328. Confused

    Confabulation, the new shill skill

    old pill heads will remember the summer of love where everyone danced in fields in the middle of nowhere, hands in the air, worshipping the new God – MDMA – with the mantra

    E’s are good
    E’s are good …
    -these fucken E’s are good

    the shamen wrote a naughty song about a fictional character called Ebeneezer Goode, which was not about drugs, as Lucy in the Sky was never about LSD

    (Jarvis Cocker wrote a better song about the silliness of the whole scene … the drugs don’t work … the spaceship never lands … it was not a new world …)

    Ebeneezer … BAD


    a male that hangs out at truck stops trading blow jobs for single cigarettes or a puff on someone’s vape. Also known to hide in the truck stop shower area. He normally wants people to call him Uncle Scroggie.

    That scroggie have been hanging around the truck stop all day, on the creep.
    by Redwingbrock December 9, 2021


    to all newcomers to the BTL

    – BTL has over a million comments; everything has been talked about, multiple times – the current genetics discussion occurs every 3 months, but people like it, so what

    – in particular, every piece of yoon bullshit, or trolling strategy has been observed

    try and be a bit original, interesting, up your game, funny, sarcastic, a bit mad, just don’t be boring

    also note, you are being watched, and after 5 posts the BTL collective consciousness knows everything about you …

  329. Graf Midgehunter

    Ebenezer Scroggie says: at 12:24 am

    Graf von Culloden.

    “Did you know that there were more Scots and Germans than English on the losing side of that battle?”
    Bonnie Prince Adolph has a bit of a secret here you mean?

  330. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    Une brume de chaleur enveloppait Marseille. Je roulais sur l’autoroute, vitres ouvertes. J’avais mis une cassette de B.B. King. Le son au maximum. Rien que la musique. Je ne voulais pas penser. Pas encore. Seulement faire le vide dans ma tête, repousser les questions qui affluaient. Je revenais d’Aix et tout ce que je craignait se confirmait. Leila avait vraiment disparu.” (Jean-Claude Izzo: Total Khéops, Éditions Gallimard, Paris, 1995)

    Bhí Marseille ag luí faoi theas ceobhránach. Mé ag tiomáint ar an mótarbhealach agus ag éisteacht le B.B. King os ard, na fuinneoga oscailte. Ní raibh uaim ach an ceol mar dhíon idir mé agus na smaointe. Ní rabhas in ann smaoineamh. Bhí m’intinn folamh agus mé ag iarraidh na ceisteanna a ruaigeadh, iad ag teacht chugam go tiubh. Mé tar éis teacht ó Aix mar a raibh cruthúnas fachta agam. Gan dabht ar domhan, bhí Leila ar iarraidh.” (Jean-Claude Izzo: Kíor Thuathail, Leabhar Breac, 2017. Is í Bernadette Nic an tSaoir a d’aistrigh)]

  331. Johnlm

    So let me get this straight.

    Protestant King Malcolm III was killed by a male prostitute in Burntisland because he wouldn’t share his cigarettes.
    The succession passed to Margaret of Norway who was Mormon.
    It was all resolved when the Germans lost the Battle of Culloden.

    References please

  332. Xaracen

    @Johnlm at 7:14 am


  333. John Main


    Don’t you get it yet?

    I’m not posting for your benefit.

    You represent the lost cause of Indy. The ancient guff strain. The both votes SNP neeps. The total waste of 9 years whose end result is the grinning face of Yousaf fraudulently telling us Sovereign Scots what to do.

    Or to put it another way: the ancient line of Scottish self-determination now outsourced due to lack of indigenous savvy, competence and integrity.

    We Sovereign Scots are done with you. By all means pretend to yourself you are carrying the flame for Scotland but you’re not. You and your deluded ilk have dragged Scotland very low indeed. You can’t anymore be trusted to fix the mess you leave behind.

  334. John Main

    @RoS 9:18 pm

    Many Scots families have one so I guess it is just par for the course that the Wings family should have one too.

    An embarrassing, gabbling aunty who turns up at social gatherings badly concealing her unlovely “charms” behind little more than a semmit.

    Whatever happened to the rants about the Great, Little and Assorted Satans RoS? They used to have a certain, Old Testament majesty to them.

  335. Stephen O'Brien

    SNP has so little respect for Scots electorate, it purposely avoided pursuit of natural justice in our own jurisdiction of Scots Law.

    That only leaves ONE OPTION, for the electorate, if natural justice is to be seved..

    The People versus The Scottish Parliament

    It’s not complicated nor difficult, there is no hypothetical, the mandate for a referendum, is self evident.

  336. Dorothy Devine

    Graf Midgehunter, perhaps if folk were to follow the revs own rules they might ignore and refrain from responding.

    I see names that I scroll past while wondering when they sleep , eat and work since they appear to infest this site ad nauseam.

    There are many who read Wings that never comment according to the stats from the man himself.

  337. John Main

    @George Ferguson 11:29

    The only divisions we need to consider in Scotland are between who gets to vote and who doesn’t. As just about everybody with an address and the will to do so gets to vote, the non-voter count is trivial and so can be ignored.

    The class of Scottish enfranchised voters is hugely diverse and getting more so with every passing day. Ergo, we need to find a policy first and foremost that appeals to the widest common denominator.

    That has to be fiscal, the economy, AKA more money in Scot’s pockets. I see this as a no-brainer. It is encouraging that Alba and Kenny MacAskill are finally seeing the light about this too. Scottish Indy will come about when a majority of the Scottish electorate are convinced that they will be better off as a result. The foundation stone for Indy is and will be the economic justification.

    The road to that destination will need, above all, competent, capable, articulate, serious people in charge. We do have some of that calibre in current Scottish politics, but we have a larger number of useless eejits. All of these time wasters will have to be swept away before any real progress can be made.

    Starting from the very poor position we are in now, I think it will take 10 years to get there. 2034 has a good ring about it for IndyRef2. It aught to be possible to stretch a point and claim that “once a generation” comes around every 20 years!

  338. John Main

    “There are many who read Wings who never comment”

    Indeed, the alert readers.

    DD believes they all implicitly align with the “it wisnae us, it wis the Deep State that infiltrated the movement and turned us intae neeps an numpties” narrative.

    I hae ma doots.

    Occam’s Razor an that.

  339. Ian Brotherhood

    @Dorothy Devine (8.58) –

    It’s their job.

    Last night I responded to a comment by you-know-who in which he called for ‘orcs to be wiped off the face of the earth’.

    Stupidly, I used a couple of other pejoratives as examples of what would surely get my comment hoofed and sure enough it went straight into moderation and has since disappeared.

    The ‘word filter’ is all well and good but it can’t be expected to deal with outright calls for genocide. And we can’t expect these ratbags to stop what they’re doing.

    If we value Wings we’re going to have to keep on contributing whatever we can to offset their repulsive baiting. The alternative is to let them have the run of the place.



    «Scottish Indy will come about when a majority of the Scottish electorate are convinced that they will be better off as a result. The foundation stone for Indy is and will be the economic justification»
    Dream on JOHN MAIN, it is such utilitarianism that renders Scottish nationalist the dreariest independence movement in the cosmos, a playground for petty fogging accountants and functionaries.
    Silly season down on Mr Campbell’s farm.
    2034? Many of the commenters on Wings may not see that year of yet more political chicanery dawn.

  341. John Main


    Aw, did I nae mak it clear enuff fer ye?

    Wagner in Africa.

    The storm troopers of aggressive, colonial, imperialist tyranny.

    An unlovely bunch of murdering, raping Orcs who would best be wiped from the face of the earth. Geddit?

    Nowt to do with Indy. Of course. But for reasons unclear to most rational readers, some of the regulars, including yersel, have a soft spot for them and their ilk.

    We need to ensure that warped view does not become associated with Indy specifically, and with Scotland and the Scots.

  342. George Ferguson

    @John Main 8:59am
    I don’t get exercised about the franchise. If you are living here and paying tax then you should get a vote. No taxation without representation and all that. I wouldn’t date a possible Independence vote. Things can change quickly. I would agree we are in a poor position. A defining article on WoS was the poisoning of the well. For me properly run public services and Institutions is the key to Independence rather than a few extra quid in my pocket.

  343. Republicofscotland

    “English Tory MP Lee Anderson has attracted fierce criticism for telling asylum seekers to “f**k off back to France”.

    I wonder what would happen if an indy minded MSP told English folk living in Scotland to f*ck-off back to England, I’m sure many folk in England agree with Mr Anderson’s comment, as would many Scots in Scotland if one of our MSPs made the same remark about the copious amounts of English folk flooding across the border into Scotland.

  344. John Main


    Kenny MacAskill will have a public email address. Forward your post to him.

    Or stand for Alba yourself on the BPHC ticket.


  345. Republicofscotland

    So Nasty English Tory Penny Mordaunt was at the Edinburgh Fringe spouting shite about how the dis-united kingdom is one big family and that we share culture, we share culture alright, Scots are utterly propagandised by English culture from top to bottom.

    Of course Mordaunt ran for PM alongside Sunak, her views or campaign speech back then was a bit of an eye opener.

    “Mordaunt has written her own version of Schwab’s Great Reset for Britain, called “Greater Britain After the Storm” in which she makes the same sort of claims as Schwab about the world, society and the economy. A book that the Telegraph called: “The most important political book nobody has read, yet”.

    The foreword of the book is by one Bill Gates, a personal friend of Mordaunt’s and someone who sits at the top table of the world’s elite.

    Her campaign for the Tory leadership was also peppered with key words and phrases that allude to the WEF’s ‘Great Reset’. Tweeting in the third person Mordaunt wrote:

    “Penny Mordaunt will deliver the new economic vision that Britain needs” and thanked Gerard Lyons for reprinting her press release saying she’ll ‘Reset the economy’.”

  346. Margaret Eleftheriou

    I have been away for a few days. Has anything happened to `Mr Campbell?

  347. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

    Dorothy Devine says (8:58 am): “I see names that I scroll past while wondering when they sleep, eat and work since they appear to infest this site ad nauseam.”
    Worth bearing in mind that a pseudonym could front a tag-team / group enterprise.

  348. Johnlm

    Mercenary armies are not a good idea.
    But sane people can’t be found to join regular armies.
    So the Brits have the ghurkas, the US have Academi and Dyncorp and both like to employ Wahabi terrorists.

  349. Sven

    George Ferguson @ 09.58

    Key point, George, “being shown the money”, is meaningless when we can’t get a GP or Dentist appointment, are told after an hour on hold to NHS 24 to make our own way to a Hospital miles away the following morning when the Minor Injuries Clinic opens or have to endure waiting for 20 hours in the Royal Infirmary waiting area to be seen by a Dr, as recently happened to an 89 year old friend.
    The SNP administration of 2007-2014 (including a period of minority government) demonstrated just how the electorate can respond to competent (not amazing) governance as provided by Mr Salmond and an executive chosen more for ability than slavish obedience.
    Get Scotland running efficiently again and this pensioner on a fixed income won’t be overly concerned about gesture politics and how many Transfolk can dance on a pinhead.

  350. sarah

    @ Margaret Eleftheriou: I think the Rev is merely waiting for something to happen or be said that is worth his analysis. Holyrood and Westminster are on holiday.

  351. Johnlm

    I heard Jim Sillars say once that national service was a good thing.
    At the time I thought it a terrible idea.
    Maybe he had a point.
    It gets the electorate involved.

  352. Dorothy Devine

    Ian B, hear what your saying Ian and yet I reckon ignoring is still the best way. I’d also like to know why these bozos don’t turn up on Yours for Scotland , Barrhead Boy and Grousebeater – why only Wings? Is it an acknowledgement of Wings power?

    I used to read the bleating, insulting posts but gave up many moons ago – now no longer feel the need, the protestations of superiority became too much.

    P.S Am having another birthday eating today!Next time we meet I will be rolling towards you!

  353. James Che

    North Code.

    I wish to apologise for the expletives yesterday, it is true that is not like me to be associated with such murky language.
    No apologies for pointing out the direction they were aimed at though, I will rephrase the sentence for sensative,

    These climate change intellectual challenged well paid bodies seem to have no employment to go to,
    There intellect is so low that they are not able research the changes that take place year upon year,
    For millions of years,
    They never explain the global warming that took place during the ice age and all the other events.
    But they have a little bit of brain that is able to copy cat parrot fashion paid for scientist and globalist shills by the establishments whom profit considerably from the scare stories, and the industries they push forward,

    The Climate change is about control of the populations en masse while the rich and wealthy carrying on Wars on the planet, killing and culling natures animals in a god like sociopath social experiment.
    While they still jet around the planet themselves to extravagent meetings with their minions servents follow in many cars behind them instead of doing skype,

    Then lower intelligent climate activists use glue to glue themselves to the road, never questioning how glue is made, or question the Vehicle transport used to arrive at their destinations or where the shoes came from on their feet.
    And did they communicate through modern industrialised phones.

    These people have a small narrow hyphocritical window view of the world but are quite expert at attacking the weak with no voice, because that is what the leaders of made up Cult told them to do while those same leaders pre arrange light sentences and fines for breaking the laws of the land,
    These low intellects individuals co the dirty work for the bosses of this Mafia like cult.
    I have very little time for even for these intellectual drop outs that can’ t see the damage they inflict on the ordinary people forced into a social experiment,
    Have they no self awareness on how they are being used for propagation of a Cult and employed by the rich,

    Not many things get my back up, except Tools and idiots.

    You can resume your normal position and reform your eyebrows to their normal level North Code,
    Please forgive the No sweary word rant :- )

  354. Ian Brotherhood

    @Dorothy Devine –

    Yes, I think you’re right. These characters are deployed to where they’re needed most so I suppose their baleful presence is a good sign.

    Ignoring them is like anything else – much easier with practise.


  355. Republicofscotland

    Johnlm @1039am.

    The USA honed it techniques on repression and political change in Central and South America.

    “The School of the Americas (SOA) is a U.S. military-training institute for Latin American security personnel located at Fort Benning, Georgia. Renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC) in 2001, the school has trained assassins, death-squad leaders, and human-rights abusers for dirty work in Latin America since its founding in 1946.

    Dubbed the “School of Assassins,” the SOA/WHINSEC has become synonymous with torture and military repression for millions around the world. Graduates have a long history of participating in and orchestrating killings, rapes, targeted violence, and the suppression of popular movements. Research continues to turn up SOA grad involvement in human-rights violations across the Americas.”

  356. David Hannah

    I see that pass marks are down this year for As and Bs. There will be a lot of dissapointed young people out there that haven’t quite made the grade.

    When you’re budgets are being squeezed. You’re living in cramped conditions, you need to work jobs, your teachers are on strike, everything’s been online in previous years, and you’ve got the Scottish Civil service writing your curriculum.

    I feel really sorry for those that haven’t made the grade but they are young.

    Worst of all they have sacked transport minister jenny gilruth as head of their education.

    What a absolute disgrace, Humza gave her the job.

    Yet more utter corruption with the cabal.

    Horrible horrible swines.

    That’s my rant for the day I feel better now.

  357. David Hannah

    Our country is so bad. The SNP are a busted flush.

    Humza Yousaf, love not Hate?

    How about you build some houses you f*cking moron?

  358. John Main


    With respect, the interests of Scottish pensioners and New Scots are poorly aligned.

    It is just not credible to expect New Scots to work hard, yet pay eye-watering levels of tax, and all to maintain services for a cohort of non-productive people with whom they have little in common.

    Please don’t shoot this messenger for pointing this out.

    It is as true for the UK, and for every other high immigration country in the west, as it is for Scotland.

    Demographics is destiny. Indy needs to show us a paradigm that works for New Scots. The old Scots, fired by visions of culture, language, etc need to accept that the lure of that to the voting public is declining.

    Our Scottish colonising ancestors didn’t go to the Americas and such because they were anxious to improve the lot of the indigenous inhabitants. They went for what they could get out of the place.

    The motivation of today’s New Scots is no different.

    Show us all the money from Indy. Indy will follow as night follows day.

  359. David Hannah

    We need this Scotland United.

    Yousaf, what’s he been doing all summer?

    He’s a horrible man. Campaigning to get rid of Margaret Ferrier. Then dancing in the streets the day after the witch hunt.

    Love not Hate on his t shirt? What a hypocrite he is.

    He’s spreading hate not love. He lacks compassion. There’s no loyalty with that arsehole its a symptom of Sturgeon rule.

    These people are psychopaths and we all know it.

  360. John Main


    Is it them that goes around the world poisoning awkwards with nerve agent and disabling the safety catches on high rise building windaes?


    So who does that then? How’s your “researches” going wi that?


  361. JGedd

    Southernbystander 7th August@9.14pm

    I hope this longer link works for you.

    I posted comments on this subject simply because I was interested in comments that had actually been made by others on this subject but it seems you can’t keep politics out of anything. In fact, it interests me precisely because the distant past should resist our modern day political prejudices. How wrong I was.

    Again I thought that this genetic investigation of the past would be immune from the usual speculation or fixed ideas of where we come from and also that most people would already have heard of it. The information has been out there for general reading since 2018 and ongoing, is being refined and re-investigated.

    However, people seem wedded to cherished ideas of the past and one comment even suggests that no good would come of any investigation of this kind so it should just be shut down. According to that way of thinking all academic historical research should be abandoned because it might lead to wrong thinking.

    Writing on history is haunted all the time by political thinking and is filtered through people’s prejudices. Genetic science actually has to follow strict protocols and actually has to re-examine its findings with peer reviews of its methodology and conclusions. I would have thought that that would be more convincing to ordinary people than reading some historian’s opinions.

    Until now, all we have had is opinion based on speculation about artefacts and accepted wisdom. The narrative has even changed according to currently popular opinions on the history of the people living on these islands in the past. First there was invasion theory to explain the observed changes revealed in artefacts from archaeological sites.

    Then that changed mid-20th century to one of cultural adaptations in a population that had remained the same through the palaeolithic, neolthic, bronze age etc., etc. This was simply fuelled by political prejudice since people post war disliked the idea of conquering incomers. It’s probably why, in interpreting their genetic results, the researchers have been careful to frame these results as reflecting change that did not necessarily involve violent overthrow or even mass migration flooding in. It took several hundred years to accomplish.

    For some reason, in the 70s, again probably to do with political prejudice, the Neolithic period was regarded as a relatively peaceful time of farming communities in hippy-like peace with nature. (Think of the sun-worshippers who turn up at Stonehenge every year for the midsummer sunrise not realising that was not the centre of the monument’s rituals.)

    More recent findings are that there was inter-personal violence, not warfare as we know it, but localised violence. Quite a lot of violent confrontations, in fact, with the early first farmers into Europe, (called the LinearBandKeramik) probably to do with access to water and grazing rights. There were massacres of whole communities in the Balkan valleys. Fighting over land use was not a problem for hunter gatherers who simply moved on.

    No evidence of massacre or conflict has so far been found with the arrival of the Beaker people. ( However, notice ‘no evidence has yet been found.’ Absence of evidence does not exclude the possibility that evidence might yet turn up.)

    There is also no reason to assume this is about modern concerns about racial superiority (though of course, people with that kind of prejudice will always find excuses for that interpretation.)

    People forget how small the population of Europe and the British Isles was at that time. Even farming communities who could support larger numbers of people than could hunter-gatherers were on the edge of self-sufficiency and just like the hunters they had replaced, they were subject to vagaries of climate, series of poor harvests or disease events which could reduce them to subsistence levels. ( In fact, it’s sometimes wondered why farming became so dominant as a way of life, since hunter gatherers were healthier, taller and had a longer life expectancy than farmers whose average height and life expectancy shrank quite dramatically on taking up farming.)

    In fact, there are signs that the Neolithic population was under stress in the centuries leading up to the coming of the Beaker people. Despite the later stages of Stonehenge when many people were required to help with building, their diet had mostly been from animal protein and there are signs of the reduction in land use for crops and also regrowth of forests. Even with this evidence, researchers are still issuing caveats that further investigation is needed. ( The Ness of Brodgar site is still being excavated but there are questions as to why this religious complex was ritualistically closed down with an enormous feast of cattle. Perhaps later excavations might answer the question as to why this very influential site of 1000 years of worship was deliberately abandoned. Perhaps what was happening on Orkney was a sign of unusual stress events symptomatic of what could have been happening elsewhere in Neolithic societies.)

    Anyway, I’ll go on being fascinated by a subject that is now throwing up challenges to accepted thinking. There is poignancy in the fates visited on people of the past which gets to me. There must have been a time when Neolithic people were aware their numbers were dwindling and perhaps looked over land that their ancestors had once farmed now being occupied by others and guessed that their culture was ebbing away. After all, people in the past didn’t think they were the past; they lived in the present. But there might have been that moment when they realised they were becoming the past. Or perhaps they didn’t and that’s just a modern perspective foisted on to people whose perceptions we can’t know.

    Others can just ignore it as is their wish. I won’t be bothering them again. This is not the site for open-minded discussion anyway. Usually it’s just for airing settled opinions with now and then a nugget of genuine information and illumination. I’ll go back to just reading the articles.

  362. Ebenezer Scroggie

    “Piss off, go fck a lampost …. tossers.”

    That’s one form of debate and discussion.

    There are other ways of discussing important matters.

  363. Alf Baird

    David Hannah @ 11:48 am

    “Yousaf, what’s he been doing all summer?”

    The inaction and intellectual laziness of a pampered native elite and bourgeoisie within colonial societies come in for special criticism from all postcolonial theorists:

    The colonial bourgeoisie has adopted unreservedly and with enthusiasm the ways of thinking characteristic of the mother country. Its consciousness is therefore based upon foundations which are typically foreign. It is not an authentic native bourgeoisie that would develop with the blossoming of the new nation. The colonial government always provides the native bourgeoisie with enough money to stiffen its domination, especially necessary during a period of ‘indirect rule’. By adopting the colonizers culture and values, the native bourgeoisie creates a considerable social and economic distance between themselves and the mass of the native population. This class will reveal itself as incapable of giving birth to the new nation; it will always find a blind alley in which to lead the people; this delays the inevitable confrontation with the oppressor power, which makes matters worse. The national bourgeoisie directs its efforts towards activities of the intermediary type, and continues to fill up its pension pots, reflecting its compromised position; ‘continuity’ and status quo rather than liberation and freeing the people.

  364. Mac

    “Last night I responded to a comment by you-know-who in which he called for ‘orcs to be wiped off the face of the earth’.”

    Well Ian ‘Dehumanization’ is a well recognised Stage of Genocide.

    ‘Polarization’ is another and of course ‘Orcs’ also come with a well scripted ‘evil baddie’ role.

    Non-human evil-baddie monsters against who exactly? Presumably Legolas, with his mane of golden locks, firing arrows of truth and goodness.

    Hundreds of thousands of mostly young men dead, no matter what side they were on, they all had mum’s and dad’s and family and friends who loved them. Human beings just like you and me.

  365. James Che

    Our politcians in governments know what they doing to their people, and if if they do not?
    They should not be in governance,
    Destroying the Countries and diluting culters across the worlds Countries with preplanned events causing a mass shift in populations and migrants,

    Creating the extortionist Climate change fear mongering taxes,
    Collapsing world banks and industries to bring in a human credit system for behavior control.
    Waging war and Colonialism in every Country,

    And legalising Criminal behaviour, and get out of jail free cards for the law breakers.
    Allowing laws to pass that bring in peodophillia and demonising women to legalise people trafficking in the future,
    Changing the laws on juries.
    Withdrawing legal avenues and finances for the populations,

    EnForcing medical intervenions on people leaving them with no private body automony
    Euthinnasia of the old and the veterans, disabled, and the homeless used to be called murder. But that is actually being bought in and legalised.
    Restrict freedom of travel with 20 minute Towns and Cities,
    Creating new laws to protect governments members and buildings with police on roofs aiming at the people on the streets down below,
    Manipulating and reducing freedoms of speech under classifications of genders, blm climate change, viruses, and court cases that used to be open to the public,

    politicians in either part of Bad Britain cannot claim to be unaware on the daily attacks on the society and indigenous population of Britain, because they are the ones suggesting and voting these laws through,

    In my personal opinion I do not want Scotland to follow this deprivation of ordinary men, women and Children into a new paradigm of communist Country.

    We have the right as Sovereign people to choose a new government,
    And because we are not in one United kingdom under the same Crown laws, and due to this, our territory is our own,
    I do not see why Alba or any other up and coming political Scottish party should high five the Snp on entry to a Colonial government sent to Scotland under Crown legislation.

    Is it not time for us to stop the fast spiralling downwards trend towards a communist Scotland, and Choose our own government as free and Sovereign people before it is to late for the people living in Scotland now and for the future people that populate will Scotland.

    We need to govern our own future.

  366. John Main

    Sure Mac.

    Get their leader to order them back to their ain land.


  367. Northcode

    James Che @11:37am

    I wish to apologise for the expletives yesterday

    James, I was joking with my faux rebuke of your ‘foul language’.

    Your comment was hardly a sweary rant considering you masked your solitary, single ‘swear’ word.

    So fear not. As far as I’m concerned your good reputation remains intact.

  368. Ebenezer Scroggie

    It greatly saddens me that Scottish members of the special forces are engaged in the war against Russians in Ukraine.

    When working as a civilian contractor/ specialist instructor to a now well-known but still somewhat secretive unit of the British Army, I noticed that a very high proportion of their otherwise very international (including Commonwealth countries such as Fiji and New Zealand) number were Scottish.

    When I asked a Scottish SNO of the unit about this disproportionate number of our fellow Scotsmen, he replied, gruffly, “Cuzz wurr harrd bassturts, Surr”.

  369. Northcode

    P.S Am having another birthday eating today!

    That’s some appetite you have there, Dorothy. Enjoy 🙂

  370. Southernbystander

    JGedd – many thanks for the links. I am also interested in this subject and like many have a great interest in megaliths sparked some years back by a trip to Orkney, especially Rousay. My friend has his own theory that stone circles were basically aesthetic art projects!

  371. Republicofscotland

    On the nasty Tory Lee Anderson’s comment.

    “Stuart McDonald, the SNP’s justice and immigration spokesperson, said: “The way the Tories have dehumanised desperate people is sickening, and proves they really are the nasty party.”

    Don’t you just love the way the SNP MPs refer to themselves as some sort of official position McDonald is Justice and Immigration spokesperson, when the SNP has no power at Westminster and has no say overall on who can come to Scotland that is reserved to a foreign country.

    McDonald doesn’t quite mention dehumanised about the 40+ people his Yuk-ie pals burned to death in a building in Odessa whilst they laughed and chanted outside as women and children burned to death.

    Of course for his absolute loyalty to the Yuk-ies McDonald received a medal from them of their highest order, McDonald is also utterly loyal to Whitehall, however to keep his cushy job he must occasionally try and placate the indy masses back home and this comment of his is aimed at doing that.

    McDonald isn’t interested in Scottish independence, advancing his career is the order of the day for him.

  372. Lenny Hartley

    JGedd Dont know if you will catch this as other thread opened up.
    Enjoying your posts, i have taken an interest since i had my own dna test and got into family stuff but what the scientists are doing with ancient dna is amazing.
    I have been trawling youtube for lectures, mainly from Ireland and USA and also reading reports in papers and the like. I have watched and read video’s and papers that have mentioned that 90% of British Isles Womens DNA are from Neolithic, yesterday i was looking for a link to share on these pages but i could not find any. Have you seen anything that says 90% of British Isles women (Inc Ireland) are from Neolithic Farmers?
    I have watched hours and hours of lectures dont want to go through them all again lol.
    Incidentally that newspaper article you shared yesterday saying their had been a third invasion from France.
    From what i have read some say that these people brought q Gaelic, presumably the Indigenous Celts were speaking P Gaelic and its often said that the Picts were p gaelic , therefore its likely as i said before they came from Neolithic farmers, i used to think that Bede was being derogatory describing the Picts as small in stature and dark skinned. Perhaps his description was accurate?
    Anyway a fascinating subject, if you search Armstrong Picts you should find an interesting article about the Armstrong Clan and Y DNA.

  373. JGedd

    Lenny Hartley @ 8.59pm

    Just noticed your reply Lenny Hartley. I wasn’t going to post anymore but your reply deserved the courtesy of a response.

    I only mentioned the very recent discovery of a second migration of people in the passing because it only seems to apply to the population of England and Wales. This migration appeared later than that of Steppe-related people usually called the Bell Beaker people. I’ve only read one brief article on it and unfortunately didn’t save it. But it is recent so perhaps there will be more information coming down the pipe.

    These people were already known to archaeologists from their tombs with elaborate burials accompanied by grave goods and sometimes whole chariots. From these distinctive artefacts they could deduce where they originally came from and that was the Seine valley. (There was at least one chariot burial which was that of a woman, by the way.) However, the recent genetic research has suggested that their genes became predominant in England in much the same way Steppe-related genes did in the Bronze Age. I haven’t read any updated information so perhaps there hasn’t been a rush to publish due to the sensationalist reaction to the Steppe ancestry research.

    If you saw the link I sent to Southernbystander you can read the cautious nuanced approach the original researchers take to the genetic information they discovered. I didn’t expect the closed minds reaction of one or two responses still wedded to fond beliefs they had acquired at school. There is a difference of approach by archaeologists and geneticists to this. Archaeologists, like historians in general, tend to have their own favoured point of view which can colour how they interpret information. Geneticists say they just follow the science.

    I can understand the reaction of (some) archaeologists to what was acknowledged to be a bit of a bombshell when the genetic research was revealed but it appears ordinary people too can be resistant to something which challenges their opinions. It shouldn’t be seen through the filter of modern political prejudices because quite simply, it was the past and is over and done with. Nothing we discover about the distant past can change our lives in the present.

    By the way, I don’t think that the genetic research shows such a high representation of Neolithic mitochondrial DNA as you suggest. The migration of those with Steppe ancestry usually refers to the Y-chromosome (of course) because of the predominance of R1b in the population in the Bronze Age and subsequently throughout northern Europe. R1b did not exist in Neolithic populations but the Bell Beaker migration also brought at least 3 lineages of mitochondrial DNA that had not existed in the Neolithic population of the British isles which shows that it wasn’t just men who travelled but they brought their womenfolk too. Had there been such a high representation of Neolithic mitochondrial lineages remaining then that would have altered the idea of population replacement. It would have been just like the populations of Europe, like Spain, who had Neolithic and Steppe-ancestry mixed, revealed by the genetic research.

    It doesn’t mean, of course, that Neolithic genes did not continue just that with each succeeding generation their contribution became less and less unlike, for example Spain. If their contribution became less then it means it was a very small population whose contribution over time became swamped by the more numerous genes carried by a larger population. It took several hundred years to accomplish. It was not an immediate replacement.

    That isn’t to say that there aren’t geographical holes in the data and one of those is the NE of Scotland, the home territory of the Picts. The absence of data from that area could be corrected in the future and more discoveries could throw up some evidence in the future that there was a hold-out community of Neolithic people. Who knows? Absence of data does not, however, mean that the proposition that a neolithic population continued to exist is proved, any more than that the opposite is proved.

    There has been a frustrating lack of detail about the Picts for a long time which is only beginning to be properly investigated. We might learn more about them. Perhaps they will cease to be the mysterious Picts once more is revealed by increased archaeology and genetic investigation. I would be fascinated to learn more about them since my knowledge of their history is meagre.

    Oh, one thing of interest that intrigued me is that the story of Tristan and Isolde is actually Pictish. Tristan is Drustan which is a Pictish name, occurring frequently in king lists, and Isolde, of course, is Yseult, who, in the story, is an Irish princess. Don’t think Wagner knew that, otherwise his opera would be titled Drustan and Yseult!

    Good luck with your ongoing genealogy research, something I’ve never really got into myself and thanks for your reply.

  374. Lenny Hartley

    Thanks for that, yeah there are a few places that the beaker people passed by.
    I have been to a small Celtic Museum in the Belgium Ardennes and they had a complete chariot which was found buried with grave goods. (And if i remember correctly it was a Women who was buried with it.)
    According to some online lectures I have seen one Respected English Archeologist is now saying it was the Atlantic Seaboard where Celtic Culture first established itself in the Neolithic Period, perhaps the incoming people such as the Beaker People just carried on with that Culture because we know it survived , obviously they retained their own Burial Customs.
    Very interesting times, i had the good fortune to see in the flesh a newly uncovered Beaker Buriel about 15 years ago. A friend had bought an old map of his village on Ebay, he noticed an ancient burial ground marked on it which was not in modern maps, so he went to investigate,
    The area up is now a sand quarry but pre WW1 a railway used to carry barites from a nearby mine to a jetty for shipment to the mainland, the Quarry is not operational during spring/summer due to nesting Sand Martins so nobody had been near it for months.
    There was a Cist exposed jutting out precariously from the edge of a 30 foot high Sand Bank , directly underneath where the railway line used to run. The Cist still had its Beaker in situ.
    He contacted authorities , but they said the had no budget to investigate.
    I contact my local MSP and told him he better find a budget otherwise all hell was going to break out. I went past a couple of days later and there was a Catalan Archaelogist recording the scene. It fared better than the previous Cist Discovery on Arran, a guy i know was ploughing a field and the plough hit some rocks, he investigated and discovered the Cist, he advised his Boss , who is of the ruling family, not the brightest he jumped into the cist and as the Beaker was a bit dirty put it in his dishwasher, sadly it was not accredited as Dishwasher proof, its now in the Brodick Museum where someone handy at jigsaws clued it all together again.

  375. Tinto Chiel

    @JGedd and Lenny H: fwiw, I have enjoyed very much your discussions on ancient DNA in Scotland.

    My perspective is through Scottish place-names and their development, which is obviously a lot more recent than your field of interest.

    One salient point made by Dr E. Campbell in the monograph I quoted is that in Argyll there is no underlying language stratum under/before Gaelic, such as you find in Renfrewshire, Ayrshire or Lanarkshire, where Welsh/Old Cumbric preceded it. Thus, Gaelic seems to have been an autochthonous language in Scotland, like the language of the Britons or the Picts, both of whose languages eventually died out here.

    Btw, please keep posting, JGedd: this place would be the worse for your absence, given the nonsensical spam-a-second havers we often have to endure here.

  376. Lenny Hartley

    Tinto Chiel that interesting about Gaelic in Argyll, will need to try and find out if same in Ireland, if so that suggests the claims that Gaelic was a latter arrival is wrong.
    The Interesting thing to me re Celts is that it is now accepted that Celts were the Indigenous peoples of the British Isle (and atlantic seaboard)( if we discount the hunter gatherers who very not many in number ) if we except that they were as latest research indicates that they were the Neolithic Farmers then what variant of the Celtic Language did they speak? Or was it an old Gaelic which Q and P Celtic came from.
    Ive never heard of P Celtic being spoken in Ireland , but its not something ive thought off before.
    The established view is that its the Beaker People that brought the Indo European Language to Europe. Im no language expert but I find it hard to believe that all the European languages evolved in a couple of thousand years! But using Papua New Guinea as an example tribes literally miles from one another speak different languages. So who knows!

  377. Alf Baird

    Lenny Hartley @ 9:30 pm

    “tribes literally miles from one another speak different languages”

    A bit like the Scots and Gaelic languages then. A pity they are not both taught to their respective peoples, or given an Act and a TV channel, a degree and a higher even. One wonders why the British state bias in favour of Gaelic amidst continued discrimination against the Scots language and its speakers? Could this be a feature of colonialism?

  378. Cynicus

    “One wonders why the British state bias in favour of Gaelic amidst continued discrimination against the Scots language and its speakers? (SIC)”

    For over four centuries since Slabberin Jamie inherited the English throne, the British state sought to destroy the Gaelic language. How did Jamie Saxt put it, Alf: “extirpation o the Yrische tung”, was it?

    Forgive me if my grasp of the speech once known as “Inglis” is not up to your high standards.

  379. Tinto Chiel

    @Lenny: yes, fascinating stuff. Some older historians did toy with the notion of Irish Picts but that idea seems to have fallen by the wayside during the 20th century.

    I did read a work whose title I have now forgotten which claimed there was no such people as the Celts at all. It seemed a very Yoon-tinged account with lots of pretzel logic to bolster a political argument, not an archaelogical one.

    @Cynicus: indeed, James VI’s Statutes of Iona were just an early example of the repression of Gaelic and its culture which would get even worse via the Hanoverians after Culloden. I can’t think of a single thing James VI did which benefited the Scottish people rather than himself.

  380. Alf Baird

    Cynicus @ 1:41 am

    “the speech once known as “Inglis” is not up to your high standards.”

    In your view the repression of the Scots language is justified? Unlike the Council of Europe, the UN and others who say that indigenous peoples have a right to their language?

    And on the longstanding colonial practice of ‘making divisions between tribes’, is this not what we see in the continued exclusion, marginalisation and extirpation of the Scots language?

  381. Southernbystander

    Having been to that major exhibition in Edinburgh just pre-pandemic, it does supply strong archeological evidence that a single entity called The Celts, as a homogenous grouping, is quite misleading. The term is not meaningless as it indicates a broad shift in culture over a specific time period but there is so such major variation between different contemporaneous groups that it is very woolly. The evidence was mainly in artefacts – pottery, jewellery etc. It certainly makes constant reference to ‘the Celts’ suspect without further specifics given.

  382. JGedd

    Tinto Chiel: 9 August @ 8.15pm

    Thanks for your interest Tinto! Actually I had read the monograph you posted before many years ago but forgot most of it, so thanks for refreshing my memory. ( It certainly needs refreshed a lot nowadays.)

    What had stuck in my memory was Dr E Campbell’s wry observation that fellow Scottish historians had been completely persuaded by the Irish version of events in Dalriada and how it had been established by Irish incomers.

    The modern Irish have had the benefit of their own thriving, homegrown disciplines as historians, archaeologists and now geneticists, so have not had their academic institutions dominated by a larger neighbour. They have been free to evolve their own perspectives, not bound by the interests and views of their larger neighbour. They have thus become confident in putting forward their own contributions in those fields in the international sphere. Perhaps their confident perspectives simply influenced our academics as a counterweight to the predominant Anglo-centric view. Unfortunately, it might have been that they then simply adopted another robust point of view without question. (Another example of the politics of a modern age influencing the interpretation of the past.)

    Irish archaeologists and geneticists played their part in the recent international genetic research into the Bell Beaker people. In fact, it was Irish research that first alerted me to the then forthcoming revelations regarding the British Isles Beaker experience. Irish archaeologists and geneticists were explaining in a tv programme the investigation into the Rathlin Boys, three male cist burials from the isle of Rathlin and how the unravelling of the complete genome of these remains and that of Ballynahatty Woman who had been found in a Neolithic tomb had led to the startling discovery that there was no continuity at all from the genome of the woman interred over a thousand years before.

    Like our academics, they were raised with the continuity narrative that Neolithic people had arrived in Ireland bringing farming (which probably led to the disappearance in the gene pool of the previous hunter-gatherers) and that the farmers had originated in the Middle East. Thereafter, everybody in Ireland was Irish and the modern population were their descendants.

    They were surprised, to put it mildly, to discover that there was no connection at all between the genomes of the Rathlin remains and that of the Neolithic woman ( and remember that with male remains, they can discover not only the Y-chromosome but also mitochondrial DNA since males can inherit their mother’s mtDNA, though not pass it on to offspring.) There was nothing to connect the males of Rathlin Island to that of the Neolithic woman.

    As they said at the time, it was as if they were looking at two different and unrelated peoples. Ballynahatty Woman’s genetic inheritance was from the Mediterranean and the Rathlin Boys’ genome was – from somewhere else entirely. (When included with the findings of international research teams it was found that, just like the rest of the British Isles, something different had happened regarding British Isles data and that of Europe and that was evidence of genetic replacement which was not the case in Europe which showed a mixed picture of genetic inheritance. The European data showed continuity of Neolithic farmer genes with Yamnaya-related genes.)

    To get back to your monograph, Tinto, because there is a connection in all this if you’ve waited patiently and that is, that in the Irish programme they had to have one of the researchers actually standing on Rathlin Island (well, it is TV and you have to show visual context, you can almost hear the director say.) He was looking across the sea at a dim coastline and said, ‘Well, over the sea is Scotland and that’s the probable route of our Beaker people to here.’

    I thought immediately of your monograph; there have always been connections between those two coastlines with crossings to and fro over many centuries. It’s perfectly possible that they had a shared language for all that time as related people, trading and marrying and celebrating the same rituals and that the language was not imposed by invading people from Ireland.

    We still seem to think in terms of nation states and can’t imagine a time when they didn’t exist and were just communities. The establishment of nation states is a powerful influence on the nature of society and distorts and skews your place in the world and your understanding of it.

  383. Alf Baird

    JGedd @ 11:17 am

    “The establishment of nation states is a powerful influence on the nature of society and distorts and skews your place in the world and your understanding of it.”

    As does colonialism, which is often the same thing, invariably involving cultural assimilation and cultural obliteration, with the domination of one cultural group over another/others. Perhaps we should therefore talk in terms of ‘cultures’ rather than DNA? Pictish, Brittoni, Roman, Gaels, Angles, Norse, even Scottish, whit aw hiv thair ain langages tae.

  384. Cynicus

    Alf Baird says:
    10 August, 2023 at 9:37 am
    ‘Cynicus @ 1:41 am
    “the speech once known as “Inglis” is not up to your high standards.”
    In your view the repression of the Scots language is justified’
    Absolutely not.

    When an old Dundee friend, now deceased, recalled being belted at school in the 1940s for his deviations from the King’s English (*) he echoed imperial school discipline from the VELDT of South Africa to the Gaidhealtachd of Scotland.

    It is interesting you should focus on my light-hearted apology rather than the substance of my refutation of your ludicrous claim. I refer you to the post of Tinto Chiel above. Can you cite the equivalent of the Statutes of Iona vis -a -vis your own linguistic enthusiasm?

    (*) The King in question was, of course, Jamie Saxt – quietly mocked as Slabberin Jamie by Scots freeloaders relocated with him from Holyrood to the court of St James. The joke, presumably, was due to his efforts to convert his native “Inglis speak”to the English speech of his new court.

  385. Tinto Chiel

    @JGedd: between your latest and the other chats you had with Lenny, I think I’m beginning to understand what you are saying regarding these genetic studies of two distinct groups which seem to have had no continuity in the British Isles over that thousand year time-frame, unlike on the continent (hope I got that bit right).

    Yes, IIRC, Campbell does mention the idea of the sea being a better way of getting around in those days rather than travelling through trackless waste or mountainous terrain.

    As you say modern politics can influence historical writing and you have to be on the lookout for it always, particularly when reading about subjects like the Jacobites which still trigger those with a Unionist interpretation of their aims and significance. In such a case, Murray Pittock is a healthy corrective and we are lucky to have him.

    “He was looking across the sea at a dim coastline and said, ‘Well, over the sea is Scotland and that’s the probable route of our Beaker people to here.’

    And your words: “There have always been connections between those two coastlines with crossings to and fro over many centuries. It’s perfectly possible that they had a shared language for all that time as related people, trading and marrying and celebrating the same rituals and that the language was not imposed by invading people from Ireland.”

    Just so and a good “catch” to have noted that Irish TV programme. It tends to supprt EC’s argument, which I find persuasive, particularly as there seem to be no examples of earlier i.e. older Welsh place-names in Argyll and the western seabord, as you would expect if Gaelic had spread later into Scotland from Ireland and formed a stratum above them.

    Sadly, I’m not sure how much Scottishness will be left for my grandchildren to appreciate or inherit when/if they get to my age, given the rapid way our society is changing through increasing Anglicisation.

    And the SNP’s “dumbing down across the curriculum” sure isn’t helping either…..

  386. Alf Baird

    Cynicus @ 12:37 pm

    “Can you cite the equivalent of the Statutes of Iona vis -a -vis your own linguistic enthusiasm?”

    I cannot find much linguistic enthusiasm for either English or Gaelic, baith langages aye remeen furrin tae me.

  387. JGedd

    Tinto Chiel @ 1.29pm

    ‘two distinct groups which seem to have had no continuity in the British Isles’

    Actually not quite, ( probably my explanation isn’t very clear.)
    If you read the link I sent to Southernbystander @ 7th August, 9.14pm you’ll get a better and more thorough explanation from the researchers themselves.

    The two groups were the Neolithic farmers who spread throughout Europe from the Middle East and eventually reached the British Isles. They were, as you know, the megalith builders with impressive sites involving henges and Standing Stone circles as well as large communal tombs. Their most famous sites of worship are at the Ness of Brodgar in Orkney (still being excavated ) and of course, Stonehenge.

    The genetic investigation carried out in 2018 was to examine remains that spanned roughly the period at the end of the Neolithic era and the coming of the Bronze Age.( roughly from 4000BC to c 2500 BC.

    The Neolithic culture is obviously impressive and visible because of its monument building and seems an iconic culture in prehistory, the first major advance in humanity’s history. It was always taught as the first important stage in human history. Then came the Copper Age, the Bronze Age etc and all seen as necessary stages towards inevitable human progress. One stage flowed ineluctably into the other with their own dedicated specialists in their history.

    Earlier archaeology had seen these changes as being wrought by ‘invaders’ coming from the near continent. Farming began in the Middle East, had travelled through Europe and brought by conquerors, had arrived in the British Isles c 6000 years ago.

    That narrative later changed to it being the original indigenous inhabitants who had simply adopted farming from their neighbours in the near continent. This was the New Stone Age, (the Neolithic) and was presented as the hunter-gatherer population had simply joined the new way of life or had joined newcomers from the continent in the farming lifestyle.

    This narrative changed again with the advent of DNA analysis which showed that the farming people had been descended from the original farmers of the Middle East who had travelled through Europe over many generations before reaching the British Isles where the henges, standing stones and monumental structures of their culture reached the peak of ambition. The hunter-gatherer DNA had seemingly disappeared in the gene pool.

    But what caused something of a furore are the results that showed that Neolithic DNA had disappeared to be replaced over time by Yamnaya-related DNA from the Pontic Steppe. Known as the Bell Beaker people they came around 2450 BC.

    The report that showed that the Neolithic DNA had disappeared in the Bronze Age caused upset that strangely enough had not been quite so disturbed by the vanishing of hunter-gatherer DNA.

    Perhaps it was the longevity of such an apparently successful culture whose impressive monuments still were visible in the landscape that caused the disbelief that the DNA of these people could have disappeared. ( It was only true of the British Isles, however, as in the continent there had been Neolithic farming communities who had merged with the Steppe-related people and their DNA was still present.)

    We were all used to the many TV programmes on Stonehenge and other Neolithic sites (usually bestrode by Neil Oliver of the flowing locks) in which the presenters would confidently talk of ‘our ancestors’. It was, I suppose, something that people found difficult to process that the people of those many iconic monuments could simply have vanished, at least in the British Isles and that their ancestors were more likely to be – at least in Scotland and Ireland – metal-working peoples who had originated in the eastern steppes.

    That might be why people are resistant to the idea that their ancestors might instead come from the distant steppe. I can’t really understand why people are so wedded to the idea that they must be descended from the Neolithic people who once inhabited the British Isles. I mean, does it matter, who your ancestors were? To me it’s simply adding to our knowledge of the past. If that throws up some surprises, then what possible effect can that have on your lives now?

    We know that the Yamnaya-related people did not disappear since many people have their DNA today. The Y-chromosome R1b – which is distinctively Steppe-related and didn’t appear in the Neolithic population – is the most prolific throughout Europe and the Y-chromosome marker R1b-M269 is particularly evident in Scotland and Ireland.

    The DNA analysis can also now tell skin colour, eye colour and possible hair colour. The Neolithic farming population was dark-skinned and brown eyed and fairly small in stature whereas the Steppe-related folk were lighter-skinned with lighter eyes and hair colour and generally taller. You only have to look at portraits and photographs of Scots from past ages to recognise that we are a pretty pasty lot with many shades of hair colour and know that we don’t actually look much like the Neolithic folk. I mean, you might want to and every summer Scots endeavour to get tanned like those Mediterranean types but it doesn’t always work and some of us can’t even raise a freckle never mind produce a tan.

    However, Neolithic farmer genes returned to England and Wales with a later migration into England of migrants from a highly successful and sophisticated tribal group from Northern France. This migration was known about from their elaborate tombs sometimes with chariots and sophisticated grave goods but the latest DNA shows how successful these people were in spreading their DNA through the population of England and Wales.

    I have my own ideas as to how the DNA of the Neolithic people of the British Isles disappeared but that’s just out of my ain heid and not backed up by any real academic research. It’s just my own theory so I’ll keep it to myself and no, it’s nothing to do with spaceships or alien abductions.

  388. Ian Main

    Scotttish Government guidance published October 2022

    ‘Off-gas grid buildings. In order to meet our interim climate targets and ensure long-term delivery of our net zero objectives, by 2030 the vast majority of the 170,000 off-gas homes that currently use high emissions oil, LPG, and solid fuels must convert to zero emissions heating. LHEES should identify low regrets off-gas heat decarbonisation pathways and opportunities at a strategic level and at a delivery level.
    On-gas grid heat decarbonisation. To meet Scotland’s statutory targets for emissions reduction, we must reduce significantly – and eventually phase out entirely – our use of natural gas. By 2030 at least 1 million homes will need to switch to zero emissions heat, away from high carbon heating such as gas. LHEES should identify potential on-gas heat decarbonisation pathways and opportunities at a strategic and delivery level.’

  389. Tinto Chiel

    @JGedd: thanks for taking the trouble to clarify all this for me (still a bit of a slow learner in these uncharted waters). Think I’m slowly getting there.

    It certainly doesn’t matter that we seem to be linked genetically to people from the Steppe (just as it’s not a contest between our two surviving Scottish languages, Gaelic and Scots, both of which will probably struggle to survive this century at this rate anyway).

    I have even heard some folklorists explain the term “Brownie” as referring to the original small, dark-skinned Neolithic people who were eventually pushed to the margins by the increasing numbers of the incoming metal-working Steppe people. Well, you never know, since there is usually a distant nugget of truth in much of folk belief.

    “I have my own ideas as to how the DNA of the Neolithic people of the British Isles disappeared but that’s just out of my ain heid and not backed up by any real academic research. It’s just my own theory so I’ll keep it to myself and no, it’s nothing to do with spaceships or alien abductions.”

    Was it Lenny H. who mentioned a theory about some kind of Neolithic lactose intolerance? Time for your Amazon blockbuster, it seems to me. But please keep Neil “Silvikrin Boy” Oliver out of it.

    He is everywhere on those red tourist buses in Glasgow and it’s most annoying, given his political views. Or could you perhaps arrange an alien abduction for him 🙂 ?

    Thanks again for your informed thoughts. Every day is a school day on Wings.

  390. Southernbystander

    I have to admit to feeling a little bit disappointed that it is not my ancestors who built all those amazing megaliths that light up our landscape. But still, they were of these islands and their efforts now contribute to what is part of our culture, showing that it is culture / society that really sustains, not ‘blood’.

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