The Buckaroo Principle
It’s probably fair to say that the voters of Scotland have been feeling a little put-upon lately. In the last decade they’ve been sent to polling stations on no fewer than 12 occasions (Holyrood elections in 2011 and 2016, UK elections in 2010, 2015 and 2017, council elections in 2012 and 2017, European elections in 2009 and 2014, and finally referendums on AV, independence and the EU).
And they’ve been subjected to endless weeks, months or even years of campaigning and haranguing each time. One woman – who only had to endure nine of those 12 – had famously had enough of it.
Yet Scots face possibly three more in the next 12 months or so, if various factions get their way, taking the total to 15 major votes in a decade. And if we want to secure the desired outcome in any of them, we’re going to have to ease the load on folk a bit.
Because it’s hard enough making your mind up on one big issue without complicating it with lots of others at the same time. And the publication of the Growth Commission report has sent Scottish politics geeks into another frenzy of not just debating whether independence should happen, but what it could/should/would look like when it did.
It’s only a few days since we last brought this subject up, and indeed it’s one we’ve been banging on about for almost seven years now, but we just thought of a really good analogy for it so we’re going to damn well do it again.
It was triggered by several things, but the lightbulb went on at this tweet:
And given how much of the last couple of weeks we’ve spent analysing poll data, we couldn’t help running some numbers through our head. Because contained in that single attractive-sounding tweet is an almost-certain second defeat for independence.
TORY VOTERS: 25-30% of the Scottish population
TRIDENT SUPPORTERS: 45-50% of the Scottish population
LEAVE VOTERS: 35-40% of the Scottish population
And since the Venn diagram of those three groups of people is NOT a set of concentric circles – lots of Trident backers voted Remain, lots of Labour and SNP voters voted Leave, etc etc – that means it adds up to more than 50%.
In other words, that solitary tweet manages to tell a clear majority of Scottish voters that independence means something big happening that they don’t want.
And that means that right there and then, before anything else happens, we’ve lost.
Because every extra weight you load onto the simple principle that Scotland should get the governments it votes for is one more water bottle or pan or shovel on the back of the Buckaroo mule. Sooner or later you hit a trigger point where you’ve pushed too many people away with one thing or another.
Have a few more examples:
MONARCHISTS: 55-60% of the Scottish population (and 76% of No voters)
OPPOSED TO BIG TAX INCREASES: 50% of the Scottish population
OPPOSED TO MORE IMMIGRATION: 45-50% of the Scottish population
Add those three to the previous three (never mind all the other lesser things that might still be the last straw for some people) and it becomes impossible to even theoretically IMAGINE a plausible alliance for Yes, because you can’t just force everyone to think like you about everything – you have to convince the electorate that actually exists.
If you tell voters that “independence means no Trident, no Queen, more tax, more immigration and staying in the EU, all from one single vote”, you haven’t a snowball’s chance of ever getting more than half of Scots to go along with it. The arithmetic just doesn’t work. No one of them is too heavy by itself, but you cannot get all those weights onto the mule at once without losing the game.
If, however, you tell people the truth – that independence simply means getting to decide on all of those things separately for ourselves at the appropriate time, and that they might still be able to live in an independent Scotland they actually like the look of – you might just convince them.
It doesn’t mean conceding any of those points. It ISN’T saying “we won’t change anything, so there’s no point even being independent”. It’s saying that an independent Scotland will be like every other country on Earth and decide its politics as it goes along, not all on one day. You’ll get the chance to argue for everything you believe in. All you’re voting for in a referendum is the ability to make those choices.
(The absolute stupidest constitutional argument of all is “Wah wah wah independence in the EU isn’t independence so it’s not worth bothering because you’re just swapping London rule for Brussels rule”. The EU doesn’t set the UK’s income tax rate. It doesn’t impose Trident on us. It doesn’t decide whether we have a queen or not. It doesn’t force Tory governments on us because Germany voted for them. And unlike the UK, if Scotland decides in the future that EU membership isn’t working out we can leave the EU any time we want. The EU doesn’t tell you that you can’t even have a referendum because “now is not the time”. If you want out, the EU’s exit door is always open.)
The electorate is already close to the end of its tether so far as being asked to vote on stuff goes. If we lose another indyref we really will have exhausted their patience for a generation. The steadily-growing rage of MB Games’ long-burdened beast over the years tell its own story.
So we really, really can’t afford to mess around this time. We’ve had our practice run. We’re only arguing for one simple, logical, sensible, reasonable thing – that Scotland is a country and countries should choose their own governments. In the months to come, let’s make sure people know exactly what it is that we’re selling them.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
The YES movement have been led to believe that Autumn 2018 is when the announcement on Indyref will be made.
My ideal is an election manifesto that seeks a mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Govt shall be the representatives of the sovereign people of Scotland. When they are mandated as the representatives of the sovereign people, we can then take it from there.
The 1707 Union would be dead. Would that mean independence? Depends what you call independence. What many call independence, I call sovereignty. Many believe you can be independent whilst in a union. I think that’s a contradiction in terms. My view is that we can retain ultimate sovereignty and have a union or unions if the sovereign people choose them but, any union involves a surrender or sharing of “some” sovereignty. Those pros and cons would need to be weighed up at the time.
However, in this 1707 Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland we are subjugated, disrespected and disenfranchised of democracy. We are told UK Parliament is sovereign in this Union. We don’t share sovereignty, we have no effective means of exercising ANY political sovereignty. The UK EU-ref and use of UK-exit from the EU to completely betray the devolution agreement has confirmed that.
The people of Scotland are sovereign. It’s time for the people of Scotland to show that and take back control from UK Parliament.
When we can exercise our political sovereignty, that’s when we can decide about all the other issues, such as who do we want running our government and what policies do we want that government to follow.
That is quite possibly best article this website has ever published
Applause
Absolutely agree with this.
I do of course think Scotland could do many things differently *if we win the right to choose* but I do not see independence as a chance to impose things upon people tyrannously.
You also run the risk when you attach these things on of people arguing about ‘what it said on the ballot paper’.
It’s a virtue to be able to say ‘the only thing you are being asked to decide is whether you agree with the concept of Scotland making its own decisions. None of the decisions have been made yet and won’t be without the general public’s consent’.
As Nicola said yesterday at the conference:
“Friends,
Confidence in the independence case is growing.
So as we wait for the fog of Brexit to clear, our opportunity – indeed, our responsibility – is this.
Not just to focus on the “when” of independence.
But to use our energy and passion to persuade those who still ask “why?”
Right now, that is the more important task.
And, if we do that, let me tell you this –
I am more certain than ever before that persuading a majority of our fellow citizens that Scotland should be an independent country is well within our grasp.”
As you rightly say Stuart, we need to focus on the one message. Scotland deserves the right to its own democracy and to make its own decisions. That’s it.
I know I have more chance of realising ideals within an Independent Scotland; within the UK, not so much if any.
You can never have the Scotland you want unless you have a Scotland that can give that to you so, Independence first and forget the everyone for themselves and the Devil take the hindmost attitude.
And as an addendum, ‘then we the general public/residents of Scotland have chosen a course with regard to a particular issue (after independence), they will find for the first time that there is no Westminster government (backed by voters in the rUK) to say ‘well, you can’t’.
simply, keeping it simple
all scotgov spokespeople should stick to this line
in the coming campaign
no fudging
but they’re up against it
I totally agree. Problem is that is almost certainly Better Together 2’s strategy against indyref2, or am I crediting them with to much intelligence.
Looks like you’ve let the cat out the bag Stu (said with tongue firmly lodged in cheek).
We lost the 2014 vote because many people saw it as a vote for the SNP and SNP policies. The biggest mistake the SNP made was not to disavow people of this notion and the White paper might as well have been a SNP manifesto
Whilst the SNP and Greens got the mandate in the Scottsh parliament for Indyref2 it must be run by a non-partisan group with a popular but non partisan leader and the SNP and Sturgeon must take a back seat otherwise we will never win
“We’re only arguing for one simple, logical, sensible, reasonable thing – that Scotland is a country and countries should choose their own governments.”
Not rocket science is it? That’s why, however, those parties opposed to Independence will continue to muddy the waters with endless talk about currencies and costs, because that is how you sow the seeds of confusion and doubt. If the majority of voters understood the simple principle of self-determination, we would already be an Independent country.
Ask yourself, deep in your heart, would you still want Independence if Scotland elected a Tory government?
I would feel sick to my stomach – and I don’t believe it would happen – but I would still vote for Independence because the people of Scotland would get what they alone voted for.
Finally coming round to what I said in 2013, I see.
Demanding we define beforehand what an Independent Scotland will do, in all its minutiae, is the game the BritNazi Establishment has played since the start.
“There are too many unanswered questions”, remember?
This is how people have been pushed, forever and a day, to choose the wrong side.
The Growth Commission report is a document for discussion for an Independent Scotland sovereign Parliament.
End of.
They always bang on about why would Scotland swap the UK for another, the EU.
The thing is; within the EU we would have a seat at the table yet within the UK we have none, 533 v 59, not exactly an equal footing.
Dickie @ 11:23:
I think it was certainly right to fire peoples’ imaginations and, remember, Yes support rocketed during the campaign and so I think they did more right than the No campaign.
This said, I would stick to trying to show how Scotland could build the institutions of a state quickly in the event of indy (showing that it’s not some sort of ‘chaos’ to follow). This is more ‘neutral’ in tone and would show that Scotland could function just like any other state.
I think there are concrete signs that some of this is happening already (ideas for national bank, energy companies, Jeane Freeman’s work in getting the Social Security body ready etc). So the groundwork is being put in place IMHO.
The monarchy for many people is just there so they accept it, Trident is there somewhere but doesn’t impact on their daily lives, the SG keeps the spectre of the Tories at, at least, some distance by mitigating and openly opposing their policies.
The sad out outcome of voting not to have independence would be the voters who might be put off by highlighting monarchy, Trident and Tories, will lose many things that really, really do impact their daily lives and their future.
Totally agree.
Independence first.
Then we start creating a country that we ALL as a nation want it to be.
A country in what we can be proud of and call home.
I agree with this 100%. I have heard some crazy arguments over the years, such as “but they (SNP) want to keep the Queen” as if that somehow made staying in the UK a more progressive option. It’s about democracy. Once we’re independent, we can choose whatever policies we want.
To anyone saying “what is the point of independence if we’re going to [insert personal gripe here]”, the appropriate response is to replace the word “independence” with “democracy” because that is what we are literally talking about.
Well said, lets keep it very simple.
Independence we have control. Allow England to run our affairs we dont have control.
ALL other maters decided by us after independence.
Reduces targets for the regimes Media and Red and Blue Tories.
Personally I think the answer to the monarchy is to insist Scotland gets the monarchy it’s meant to have had since 1320
No ditching a sovereign overlord or the Parliament which claims to have usurped the Divine Right of Kings. Simply an assertion that in Scotland we are Sovereign.
If there’s no movement towards celebrating the Declaration of Arbroath in 2020 given it’s significance as a statement of the sovereignty of the people then that’s probably because we’ll still be in the UK.
It’d be interesting to see how it gets portrayed if it’s not completely ignored. Probably some kind of variation of the Westminster sovereignty grab although much earlier and more primitive due to not being English.
Regardless of which loyalty to a monarch in Scotland is to our Head of State and not personal. There’s an ambivalence about the Orange Order and NI “Loyalism” in that context.
Long story short, keep the monarch but as intended in our declaration of independence. According to our laws is what Liz said when being crowned.
The other options are an overpowered President blundering about or a May like would be tyrant.
Keep the Unicorn in it’s chain but hang on to the other end and don’t forget who’s the boss.
In short: “Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.”
That’s all folks!
@Jim 11:30am
Exactly, and also a veto! Just have to look at the power Ireland currently has in the Brexit negotiations.
I’m glad to see an article like this.
I’ve always been firmly in the yes camp but I would consider myself centre-right and support an exit from the EU and while I agree that Scotland needs to attract immigrants I do support a points based immigration system like Canada / Australia.
While nothing would sway my opinion on independence I do understand why people who are between yes and no could be pushed to No by the staunch pro EU / pro immigration / forever left government message from the Yes side.
We need to keep the message simple on independence.
Definitely they have, the voters of both Scotland.
Can I have a “I have no idea what you mean”. Please? Can I?
Message received, and (long) understood.
Totally, simply logical Captain.
Eyes on the prize, no point wondering how you will spend your lottery winnings if you haven’t bought a ticket.
There has been too much agenda pushing by various factions and it is indeed causing division in the wider movement, believe it.
So, let’s get to our destination first then we can argue about the seating arrangements later. Smiley face
Should we make our own decisions?
Could we?
Hmmm… difficult.
SNP logo on the merchandise at the conference is “We can”.
“Scotland is a country and countries should choose their own governments.”
You know what else I don’t understand? Those yessers who want Brexit but want Brexit to happen before the next indyref. Eh? What’s that all about? “I don’t want voters in the rest of the UK making decisions for Scotland, except the decision on leaving the EU, that’s OK, they get to decide that, Scotland’s democratic wishes can be ignored on that one.”
This is a good post but does not go far enough. In essence, the independence argument needs to be de-politicised completely. Independence is a principle, not a political argument. And principles are above politics.
Why is independence a principle? Because politics is defined by a left to right spectrum of views and anything that cannot be positioned on that spectrum meaningfully is apolitical, by definition. In other words, if there’s no plausible and clear reason to associate a viewpoint to the left, right, or centre of politics, then it is not politics.
Is democracy a political argument? Is opposition to racism political? Of course, I could go on citing such examples. And like all such examples, independence hinges on principle, not politics. Thus, there is no reason for someone on the left to be any more pro-independence than someone on the right.
The problem, of course, is that independence in Scotland has become associated with — not just the left — the radical left. Follow it through; there’s a reason that parties on the radical left in Scotland and elsewhere are dead. The majority of people simply don’t want those people and those ideas impacting on their lives.
If there is one simple response to people like Loki, Cat, and the so-called radical left, that should immediately result in them shutting their faces, it is the argument above — radical left politics and the parties who espouse them are essentially non-existent in Scottish politics.
Keep the monarchy,
great for the royalists and tourism,
have a Coronation `Elizabeth I Queen of Scots`,
the royalists and tourists love a Coronation and would be a great TV showcase for the whole world to see and visit the new Independend Scotland,
St Giles,Castle,Royal Mile,Pipe bands,Holyrood,sunshine, the renewed Scottish regiments in the full highland dress,Stone of Destiny/Jacob, The Ancient Honours of Scotland,
ka-fricken-ching,
maybe have the sainted Nicola put the crown on Lizzy`s head :).
Sterling and the Bank of England probably play on Westminster’s mind.
When Nicola reminds people that Sterling is as much Scotland’s as it’s the UK’s she could be pointing out our stake in the currency issuer backing Sterling.
Westminster might not want to share, just as the don’t want to join the Euro. The question is what would they give to buy Scotland out? If the don’t do we get a seat on the board? More direct influence on interest rates than now.
First and foremost we must give belief that Scotland can manage on its own. That is the priority. Big decisions will have to be made after indy, but that is normal in any country.
I think you have got this exactly right Rev. Too much, too soon from too many interest groups, detracts from or complicates the prime message of independence. The message that we can stand on our own two feet must be prime.
Sunday politics today.
Angela Haggerty – best thing she has ever said.
” I really don’t think I’m needed here”
Some self awareness from the Self appointed Captain.
Agreed, ain’t got nothing against alternative voters and supporters of previous polls, it was their choice to do as they understood things and more and more of the People of Scotland are now learning from past events (and finding out the hard way.)
Again, nothing against our People… it’s only ever the British Nationalist POLITICIANS and the MSM that should receive the necessary grilling.
Everybuddies got to learn sooner or later.
One twoo, buckle my shoe.
Help them to vote Yes.
If we, and we on here at least most certainly do, want independence then that is what we must focus. All the Britnat shite about currency, Trident, Queenie, EU etc are all topics that can be resolved AFTER we are an independent country once again.
First and foremost we must become that independent country we want. During the transition period from subjugated country to independent country would be the time to start discussing all the other stuff like currency, Trident, Queenie etc. in my view.
If there was one thing that we do need to start discussing during the transition period first it would be currency. The new report says 10 years is quite sufficient time period for transfer from the pound to a Scottish currency. Like many I totally disagree. I believe we need shot of the pound in fairly short order. If Estonia, Lithuania, Czech republic, Slovakia and others can ditch their old currencies for their new currencies after independence within 9 – 20 months of gaining independence then surely an independent Scotland can achieve something similar. When this decision is made I sincerely hope our new currency is not called the pound or Scottish pound anything but that. To do this would, retain too much of the English/British pound connotations about it. For me a completely different name must be chosen … something like the Ryal would be my personal choice.
Dick ie Rubbish 11.23
Why lump it together.
It makes sense individually.
If you want to get rid of the monarchy. More likely if Independent.
If you want rid of Trident. More likely if Independent.
If you want a better life. Definitely Independence.
Not everyone wants all of them. It is not a package. It is either – or. One doesn’t depend on another.
The tweet is one person’s preference. No one get’s a complete package. It is a compromise. To get better control. Ultimately Independence.
The carry on about currency? The Irish Free State kept the £ from 1923 till 1928. Then introduced their own currency the Punt, pegged to the £. Joined the Euro 1999. They had the most growth ever. Celtic tiger. IR has better pensions and benefits. A successful economy. NI is a subsidised basketcase. Years out of date.
Jim @ 11.16
“You can never have the Scotland you want unless you have a Scotland that can give that to you”
How true.
No disrespect to anyone of differing opinions on this or indeed the tweet quoted which ‘I’ originally fully endorsed with but out as clear a this …
Hear fecking Hear Rev Stu !!!
If our YES discussions result in this kind of clarity, lets keep at it hammer & tongs but THIS IS THE WAY !!!
I totally agree. People are complex and the Venn diagram is an apt model to use. It is also why the SiU types get so frustrated with the Scottish electorate returning the SNP. They also fail to appreciate that a bundle of things are happening when that tick gets placed. They have tried to oust the SNP by making Scottish politics a single issue topic and focusing on one messiah for that negative No Surrender message. That is ultimately political nihilism and will come back to bite them.
I have warmed to the “big enough, rich enough and smart enough” message. It should be the core of our next campaign. This doesn’t cross over anyone’s Venn circles and allows an independent Scotland to deal with those issues as any mature democracy should through competing policies and the ballot box.
Automatic fail on clarity ??? Beamer !
strike ‘out’ & replace with ‘put’ ! aarrgghh
Apologies all, getting old !
An case in point.
Mary Queen of Scots. Forced to abdicate. Was she still Queen afterwards? Was that a choice the English made given the alternative was acknowledging the deposing of a monarch as legal in Scotland?
Same goes for Charles 1. Deposed in Scotland and sent to England.
Never mind Cromwell invading due to Scotland electing its next king.
Ireland does not have the resources and advantages of Scotland. Tory policies are not supported in Scotland.
Prefuckingcisely, Arbroath1320; all these things and more can be debated and voted on within an Indepepndent Scotland.
As part of the UK:
You want rid of trident or you want it to stay, no choice in the matter!
You want rid of the Monarchy or you want it to stay, no choice in the matter!
You want to rejoin the EU or stay out, no choice in the matter!
There are loads of other examples to and you also have an exponentially greater chance of having the Government you want.
Independence then means choice and Independence and our varying ideals are not mutually exclusive
By comparison Tory voters have things easy. They get all the individual policies they want served up on a plate without ever having to worry about securing the support of a majority of voters. In fact they can even get the government they want without winning a single Westminster seat. Easy to see then why Tory voters like things just the way they are.
Independence needs a Central bank. That will take two years to establish?
Independence means that Scots alone decide matters, they are responsible for their own destiny and their own ‘mistakes’.
Given the dependency mindset that grips many of our citizens that is just enough to scare them into voting a big no.
Dependency is the problem, plus that peculiar Scots distrust of one another.
Unionism has done a good job. In our case what passes for ‘democracy’ may be a destructive addiction to sticking with ‘nurse’.
Unless of course the SNP really gets stuck in and takes a chainsaw to the whole rotten underpinnings of the status quo and its reactionary, anglocentric mythology.
Great article, this is why I’ve always been reluctant to be enthusiastic about the Yes movements prevailing sentiment of typically left leaning idealism. The whole thing of “independence means we’re free of the tories forever” is just wishful thinking from die hard socialists who want their vision of independence to be the *only* vision of independence. And remarkably, in my experience, they can’t comprehend that that vision is not likely to be shared by everyone.
The all under one banner marches recently have been a resounding success, and before them the various gatherings at George Square in Glasgow etc, but the fact of the matter is that at these events there tends to be an overwhelming tendancy for them to be overtly espousing various policies over and above simply independence. You just need to look around at various banners on these marches to see things like “Tory scum out” or even the famous “bairns not bombs”. It’s then not about independence, its about a raft of things that those people want, not just Indy.
I personally view these kind of things with the same distrust and apprehension I felt when various lefties and right on types formed RISE in the aftermath of the first Indy ref. It just cemented to me the view in the general populations mind that indy is the purview of radical left types instead of a principle which overrides left/right politics. Has anyone asked themselves how a group of Tories wanting to go on one of these marches would be received? I doubt they’d feel welcomed. But they should be. If we genuinely want Indy we’ll need support of those we may not agree with politically.
Indeed only yesterday I saw an Indy supporter on Twitter tell a recently converted unionist who had mentioned they found being a unionist easier that they should “go back to being a Yoon”. That kind of thinking just boggles my mind. Never mind the fact that if they stopped and thought about it they’d realise they were making a valid point, being a unionist is in many ways easier, more comfortable, but they’d just thrown her new found support for their cause back in their face. Bizarre behaviour. Thankfully Stu and others chastised them swiftly and they offered apologies, but that kind of reaction is too typical of some Indy supporters.
I mean personally I’d be open to a Conservative government in an independent Scotland, if they curbed some of the more swivel eyed tendencies of the UK party that is. Hell, if they had a good enough manifesto I’d maybe even vote for them. But even saying that on here, after everything I’ve just said I’m fully expecting to be called some sort of undercover yoon. I’m not but we’ll see how it goes!
This post is just what I have always thought. Keep it to basic principles. That’s why I will not be reading the growth paper.
The UK Union has been and is bad for Scotland. Scotland has been treated like a colony and not the equal partner as per the Treaty of Union.
Scotland is a country and we should be taking our own decisions like any normal country. Advocating your country is controlled by another country is abnormal and an abdication of responsibility. The majority of richest countries per head of population are small countries.
The EU leave campaign had no growth papers or any plans.
I thought the first tweet was rather good. Your article has made me re-evaluate.
Many thanks.
Thanks also for the clear paragraph to the repost – of how can you be indy if you’re still in the EU.
Very to the point. Will be borrowing that paragraph.
Peace and love people.
Nicely done, squire. Not sure how we avoid getting sucked into the yoon mire, mind you. In a media context, that is.
It always baffles me how different interests argue endlessly tooth and nail on issues, become entrenched and slogans like “no surrender” or “to the death” become the millstones around necks that they are.
I believe “we”, the Scottish people, are fundamentally different from the majority of our cousins in the south, in that we may differ in our opinions, but we are certain of one thing, we all want what’s best for Scotland. And in that we are united. (possibly nearly the only thing :-))
Let’s get independent, then we can look forward to those discussions, but independence must come first!!
Right on, Rev.
– isn’t it depressing to keep having to STATE THE OBVIOUS every 5 minutes or so?
The biggest vote losers are with the electoral poison of the identity politics brigade – if you let them establish themselves as a “revolutionary vanguard” / “leaders” of the independence movement – and start spouting pish on major TV, encouraged by the broadcasters – that new Scotland will automatically be some kind of “every progressive policy ever cooked up” – from day 1 – then the whole project is dead in the water.
Which is exactly the plan, exactly how the “old” left got destroyed and exactly why they will get free reign from the media. They are the “leftwing” of neoliberalism and of the establishment, nothing more – most of them simply useful idiots.
Elementary statistics. The conjunction of any two probabilities is always less than the probability of either alone. If there is a 50% chance that you support independence and a 50% chance that you want a republic, both together is .5 x .5 =25% chance of you supporting Yes.
So let’s stick to the simple question: who should govern Scotland – we Scots for our own aims, whatever they might be, or somebody else for theirs, whatever they might be?
This simply emphasises the need to wait for the potentially catastrophic outcome of the Tory Brexit
Voting for me is no more onerous than doing my weekly shop. In fact Tesco is right opposite my polling station!
Spot on! Needed to be said.
I’ve been getting annoyed at folks who support Indy with conditions and caveats. “I’ll only vote YES if iScotland does/has this/that/other”. Or even less aggressively, setting out detailed personal visions of iScotland knowing some of their aspirations are not mainstream.
Anyway, what is mainstream, when multiple issues are considered together? Very little!
FFS. Most of my life my country has been ruled by another country’s government which we did not choose, we did not vote for. I want that to end. I want to live in a democracy.
I want a democratically elected government in this country with all the powers of a normal European state. Through referendums or elected representation I want the people of Scotland to make the decisions on austerity, EU, WMDs, war and peace, the currency we use, the tax we pay, the services we receive, etc etc..
I may not like all the decisions, and may disagree with some policies, but I will accept them because they will represent the majority views of my fellow country men and women. They will not have been forced upon us by others against our wishes.
That is what Indy is all about! No conditions, no caveats!
The Rev is absolutely right – full unshackled self determination and nothing else is what we need to be promoting.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The Buckaroo Principle It’s probably fair to say that the voters of Scotland have been feeling a little […]
ClanDonald says:
“You know what else I don’t understand? Those yessers who want Brexit but want Brexit to happen before the next indyref.”
I agree it seems a bit odd, but it’s not entirely stupid. If Scotland is dragged out by Brexit an independent Scotland gets to decide which bits we want in future by signing up to them rather than fighting the sort of entirely destructive rearguard withdrawal that is Brexit.
There is not one only one recipe for EU membership. It’s a buffet.
Or a McSmorgasbord even.
When was the last time Sturgeon used strong anti-monarchy or anti-trident rhetoric in her speeches?
I genuinely find it hard sometimes to determine what is Left and Right in our current Party system. We are often told Independence is not radical or bold enough and the SNP are too timid, indeed I have made that claim over some of their policies.
All the abstaining and trying to outfox the SNP by the Labour Party, North and South, means that Socialism is way down their agenda. The idea that Corbyn will rescue Scotland from its left of centre path for a few years is ridiculous. As Labour accuses the SNP of stealing their policies all the time, why would Scotland need to be rescued?
But of course, they need Scottish seats to impose a Labour government on England, don’t they? When will England wake up?
I’ve been saying that since before 2014. I can hear myself saying the words.
Its not about currency, but who decides what currency you use.
Its not about Trident, its who decides if you have Trident….
It wasn’t just me saying it, there were others, but nobody was listening back then. They weren’t listening about the BBC either, – but that’s another story.
Having the last word on something requires Sovereignty, and Sovereignty IS Independence. If you are Sovereign, you ALWAYS get to play the last Top Trump card on the pile, because that is what being Sovereign MEANS.
Take Europe for example, the BritNats might whine and whinge about Europe stealing their sovereignty while they slept, but be in NO DOUBT that is complete bollocks. There is NO power held by Europe over the UK which was stolen or coersed from the UK but those powers to which the UK did not voluntarily concede by agreement. NEVER, at any point was there even a modicum of Sovereignty surrendered.
The UK, from the moment it entered the EEC until it voted for Brexit was Sovereign throughout, and if it didn’t agree with Europe, it could have exercised it’s pristine Sovereign right to leave at any time, even without a Brexit Referendum. Sovereignty, the choice to leave which nobody can overturn, is/was the UK’s Top Trump card, and when it was played Europe could not overrule it.
We Scots however, like to assert that we are Sovereign, but the vast majority of us have precious little understanding of what that means. We like to dress up in the clothes of sovereignty, but we don’t defend sovereign principle.
Westminster could have made a sovereign decision to leave Europe without a Referendum, because contrary to popular belief and prevailing wisdom, Democracy is not the Superior of Sovereignty, nor is it the precursor to being Sovereign.
If we, the people of Scotland, are indeed Sovereign, we do not require ANY Democratic mandate to lay claim to that Sovereignty. It is an absolute. It is binary. It is black, or it is white. We are Sovereign, or we are not. There are no degrees of Sovereignty, no grey shades between black or white.
That’s been my own personal “Buckaroo” moment. We are making a grave error in our strategy when we obfuscate the ownership of OUR Sovereignty with a modern democratic decision on how to weild it.
Not only do I now think an IndyREF is unnecessary, but I actually think binding our Sovereign emancipation from the Union to a democratic majority does a grave disservice to our sacred Constitutional Sovereignty. We do not have to buy back, nor win in a raffle or a ballot, that which we already own.
If we are Sovereign, we need do NOTHING except be Sovereign, because the Union with England cannot co-exist beside the ascendent principle of Scottish Sovereignty. If one condition exists, the other by very definition, cannot.
Screw Trident. Screw Currency. Screw the BBC. Screw Propaganda. Screw Europe. Screw Westminster. Screw Holyrood. Put all of this ‘noise’ out of your head. None of it is essential to the Constitutional issue of sovereign power. IF Scotland can make a legitimate claim to be Sovereign, then neither England, Westminster, Europe, Brussells or ANYBODY else can overrule us.
It breaks my heart with saddness, anxiety, and fear, but the most accurate and dangerously definitive question to put on this mythical IndyRef2 ballot is the question “Should Scotland abandon for all time its Constitutional claim to be Sovereign?”
Scary question eh? But like it or not people of Scotland, that’s the status quo we are currently living in. We are playing at sovereignty, just as a child might dress up in a cloak and a paper crown and call themselves a monarch.
IF we are Sovereign, then we need to man up and start acting like it. We don’t ask people to recognise our Sovereignty, we tell them to.
Yes, yes, yes, I know and fully accept we have a bona fide Constitutional dilemma about how we govern ourselves as a democracy of Sovereign citizens, – we need to come up with original and inventive devices and instruments to make our Constitutional Sovereignty functional, but that comes later. Let us not muddle up that Democratic implimentation of our Sovereignty-made-safe, with a “loose cannon” Democratic mandate from an unnecessary IndyREF poll which becomes a free floating particle unattached to any sovereign source empowerment.
Tough love Scotland? We laugh at the BritNats delusional fantasies about Brexit, and equally delusional nostalgia about Empire. But we’re not so different, we think our Democracy will deliver a “Soft” Indy, and we are harking back to the days when Scotland didn’t have an Empire but basked in sovereign recognition.
In the Army regulations, weapons drill for stripping a rifle or machine gun always starts with “take command of the weapon”. Its a dangerous indescriminate thing that can kill people. You need to be firm, confident and assured.
Scotland, we need to “take command” of our Sovereignty.
Well said and put Rev.
First and last it’s about your right to choose.
Once again an excellent piece via WOS.
It is clear to see why so many of usual UKOK hacks attack you and try to undermine your credibility as a serious source of information…..because you actually DO the job that they regularly FAIL to do….end of.
Scott Cameron says:
I agree.
However, I suspect what stresses a lot people out is the decision making process over the weeks before hand. This is probably particularly true of referendums.
If there is a vote next week I will vote SNP, Yes, or Remain. I have done all my decision making. That isn’t true for a lot of folks. It can be a hard decision for them and they know they may have to live with the consequences, especially if they change their mind down the line.
Two things make these more decisions difficult.
Firstly, they are having a habit of being indecisive! EURef had an ill defined option for which there was no planning. IndyRef1 was been destroyed by broken promises. No firm decisions resulted in either.
Secondly, the voters are being badly served by biased media. Legacy media is certainly no longer the goto place for information for most people, one way or another.
If only people had the ability to Digest and retain information like robots then use it to make correct decisions we’d be independent already..but they don’t so we have to rely on human fallible brains filled with emotion, bias, bigotry and all the other faults mankind is loaded with and that makes life complicated
On our national TV screens some of our population watched jaws dropped to idiot folk who were discussing Brexit in terms of the possibility of it being about cutting down trees or cheese or something, or travel to Spain for their holidays becoming more awkward, and I say some of our population because many of our population probably never even noticed because like the folk on that TV show many people wouldn’t know Brexit from a crumbly Hob Nob, and in their minds why should they that’s *the governments* job, and if they get it wrong they’re the ones we blame because some political chancer like Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage will jump on the Telly with the help and support of the media and take advantage of the poor souls unwired brains for their own ends, power for the chancers and disruption from the media, everybody happy
Independence to make your own decisions for many people is something they would rather not have because if they do posses that responsibility then they could be held up to be blamed for it going wrong so they don’t want it…What follows is the disbelief that others who might be like themselves have any more ability than they do so best leave it to others
Confidence: Many people in Scotland have never had any yet are filled by the *who do they think they are* syndrome which was created by the Ruling country England as part of their Empire bulding strategy, remove a peoples confidence culture and language and you remove its drive and ambition then begin rebuilding your own replacement culture within that conquered country by rewarding some sections of the conquered with treats for being good children, a knighthood here some land there and you’r a winner, you’ve created a dependency afraid to jump one way or another either through fear of punishment or fear of no reward
My belief is that Nicola Sturgeons slower methodical path towards Independence, while unpalatable for the more impatient who would wish to make a fighting stand of it right now, will win by replacing the visible crumbling culture of the Empire as it is now with the original confidence that was ripped out of Scotland in the first place
The Unionists think they hate Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, they don’t, they fear what they think is their own England based replacement culture dissapearing and I believe that’s the challenge the First Minister has set herself
Giving them the confidence not to fear
Brilliant, forceful simplicity, right to the point as always: independence first, nation-shaping thereafter, according to what this nation decides it wants, issue by issue. The inevitable corollary, though, is that in the next campaign we have to make that point and keep making it, and at least counter if not override the inevitable torrent of scaremongering and doom that’ll be orchestrated from within as well as from London.
Off-topic but I see the Scum are attacking the baby box again in their sunday edition.
Perhaps the next article on clarifying important issues should be on euthanising the idea that a Holyrood election is a suitable platform for an independence mandate.
Firstly, you can’t make other parties agree on this format just because the SNP might want it. It’s a general election and that means all the issues are up for discussion. If the Blue/Red/Yellow Tories decide they don’t want it to be about independence then it won’t be and the SNP will look like mad people shouting at the traffic.
Secondly, GE’s are tribal. If we really think that many Labour supporters might support independence then a GE is the wrong time to think about testing this proposition. Even a split party will agree a common GE set of policies and the LP will not make independence one of them. They’re also not going to split just because the SNP have decided to force an independence GE.
Thirdly, if you give today’s article any credence then you’re going to confuse voters and give indy-hating journos a gift. The GE would get the one big question of independence mixed up with lots of smaller or even quite big ones like Trident, the monarchy etc. Every opinion poll for independence would get mixed up with those others on the state of the parties. GEs are bad enough these days for treating opinion polls as news…imagine a joint GE/indy election where the public are being asked to do something they’ve never had to do before and also have to try to amalgamate these heretofore separate issues and make a final decision in a way they’ve never had any experience of doing.
Fourthly, let’s imagine the separation talks go on for longer than expected or some unforeseen event occurs or just a plain old recession starts…if this started to approach the time of another GE then what would stop the unionist parties from arguing that this coming GE should be about remaining with the UK? The SNP don’t control the electoral cycle or the dates of GEs, so a first GE/indy election could just as easily be about the opposite four years later.
Anyway, the overall point stands that GEs cannot be made into something they’re not designed to be despite what Thatcher may have said decades ago. We’re stuck with a referendum and people should not waste any time discussing anything else.
There is a corollary to this sensible proposition; a vote for SNP is a means to an end but it is not the end. The SNP requires a detailed political manifesto to become elected during this period of devolution. However after independence there is no necessity to vote for the SNP. After independence you can vote for whichever party you want to run our country based on their Scotland specific party manifestoes be it real Scottish Tories or real Scottish Labour.
Lend your vote to the SNP even if you have to hold your nose to do it because the SNP manifesto does not necessarily show you what Scotland will be like after independence but the SNP is the only party that can get us there.
I have been arguing this point for years -even during the IndyRef.
It is about one thing only. WHO gets to decide on Scotland’s future – London or Edinburgh. Everything else is peripheral to that key point. As the Rev have pointed out, all the minutiae is for after Indy, that’s why the Unionists continue to press the YES campaign for detail, when they don’t even now what a future UL would look like.
One simple message: Independence means SCOTLAND can choose its own future [NOT London]
This. This is the key. If we can all hold to this principle in the face of all the obfuscating shite, there is a real chance.
Proud Cybernat says:
10 June, 2018 at 11:44 am
In short: “Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.”
I like it, PC!
Good article. Statements like the above tweet annoy me because they assume the whole Yes movement thinks like a hive mind. It’s no wonder unionists think we’re a cult when people like that excommunicate Yessers because they happen to be monarchists, or support Trident or are Tories. (Yes, independence-supporting Tories do exist! They may be a minority but they are there.)
I hate the Tories and everything they stand for but the Yes movement needs to seriously tone down the anti-Tory rhetoric. When and if Scotland becomes independent, it will have its own Conservative-voting segment of the population as it does now. These people, while I disagree with their views, deserve fair representation in an independent Scottish Parliament. We cant begin our new journey with independence by telling certain groups of people they are not welcome. That is not conducive to a healthy, democratic society.
Independence is about getting the governments we vote for. Everything else (the monarchy, taxes, immigration etc.) will be decided by the various governments Scots vote into office, regardless of their political hue.
I have often said that I think more Scottish Tories should support independence because it gives them a real chance to reform their party and gain power in an independent Scotland. Many people may not like it but I have no doubt an indy Scotland will have its own Conservative governments sometimes.
We need to be a broadchurch. Independence is the goal. The rest can be decided after the fact. And we’ll decide it together as a nation.
Alba gu bràth!
I now think it should be the Scottish Dollar, if it good enough for Australia, New Zeeland and Canada it is good enough for us to have the Scottish Dollar.
A lot of people think Pound and think England, that is my only reason for not having the Scottish Pound.
Whatever they use tell everyone you know vote YES this time.
The unionist whinge Holyrood has centralised power is ludicrous coming from people demanding its abolition and Westminster reinstated as the only ruling body.
Within the constraints of the UK/Westminster colony domination, I think the SNP/SG is doing the right thing with getting on with building up the State of Scotland.
The infrastrucure, bridges, roads, housing, Scot.NHS, etc.
An Investment Bank that can easily be converted to a Scot. Central Bank.
Investment in education.
Long term investment/holdings in future projects such as Prestwick.
Shipbuilding – see Fregusons – not waiting for non-existent help coming from London.
Energy investment in renewables, wind, tidal.
Opening trade offices world-wide to promote Scottish produce/products or know-how.
All designed for Scotland to already be/act as an independent state.
Be confident in your own sovereignity and act like a SOVEREIGN nation.
Independence is a state of mind and voting for it in a referendum is just the ratification of it.
Not just “We can” – get on with doing it.
From WoS Twitter …
” cliff mccabe
The ability to decide takes precedence over any decision. “
…. 9 words. Sums everything up perfectly. A good mantra for campaigning.
100% agree with the message in this article Stu.
I know we all have different opinions on politics, Greggs rolls, or when to cut the grass, etc. but for independence we need to focus on the prize. Never mind the detail until after we are free.
“spouters of (divisive) pish”
– naming names – the people who will get wheeled out as “voices for independence” on the major TV shows or given mainstream newspaper space
Angela Haggerty – er, the “Captain” … it’s journalism, Jim, but not as we know it …
Cat Boyd – funny, until you realise she means it – output generally like a child’s homework which has not been corrected
Jordan Daly – the Blanche Dubois of scottish journalism
Jonathon Shafi – our own Emmanuel Goldstein, SWP refugee and Moses to a new Tribe
Mike Small – the bella boy – a new Scotland will be like living in a Belle and Sebastian song, with cover art by Alasdair Gray
Loki – the pet “working class oik” currently beloved of the chattering classes – is it because of his “authenticity” or do they like his beats …
– anyone who writes like they are a TRY-OUT for the Guardian
– anyone who looks like they’d be better off moving to BRIGHTON
– that Wings is by FAR the biggest and best independence blog and yet almost no one ever “beats a path” to the Rev’s door – tells you all you need to know – he “talks sense, ken” – and that will not do.
The Rev was asking for possible alternatives to Buckaroo…humbly submit the “Jenga Principle”…too many players loading on too many unnecessary, contradictory policy ideas gives voters the impression that the ricketty structure (indyref2) has been built by cowboys…collapse is inevitable.
Loved today’s article…however, be warned, such a strong image might get nicked by the other side!
Powerful and wonderfully concise article Rev!
I agree we must avoid alienating any potential Yes voters with flag waving around aboliton of the Monarchy etc.
However, I would also add that there is another aspect to this …. for me a key strategy for winning Indyref II will be to keep some of the NO’s at home on the day.
To do this we must aviod arousing their passions over issues such as nuclear weapons and the future of Monarchy – issues that are extremely dear to the Unionists especially. (And I say that as a pacifist republican!)
Lacking a threat to the Crown or to the security of the realm and if it is raining), those dear old Unionists might just sigh and decide to put the kettle on rather than go to the Polls on the big day!
lol@confused
EVERY country should govern themselves. Scotland is a country and wanting Scotland to govern itself isn’t Nationism, it’s NORMAL. Not wanting Scotland to govern itself is not normal. Wanting Scotland ruled by another country deprives Scots of DEMOCRACY!
The question should frame the debate. The question should be a simple one that reflects reality. “Should Scotland be a normal self governing country or England’s colony?” The choice is democracy or subjugation. The choice is Democracy or Colony?
To deny Scotland our independence is to deny Scots Democracy.
First things first: independence. We can deal with the rest afterwards.
Once we are over the line, everything is up for grabs. This is just one example from dozens –
The Growth report was actually, really good, it did its job – it was dry and minimal – certainly the enemy have not managed to seriously attack it in any way, which is good for us.
Here is something potentially very cool and interesting – just the sort of thing you might want to and indeed, could try to do, in a new independent country
link to zerohedge.com
“swiss to create new banking system”
– BUT – this is something you might want to try, very carefully, maybe 10 years post independence. You would not try it on Day 1 – and certainly you would NOT put it into any kind of document like the Growth report. The Swiss are working from something that already works for them – and they have hundreds of years of experience of – and no doubt whatsoever, if it has problems, they will shut it down.
This may seem kinda-boring, but having a central banking system which is invigorating, facilitating, stable and sound, rather than an adversarial parasite living in your midst – the benefits are almost too great to properly explain.
– citizen of UK, US = debt-slave to bankers, a neo-plantation
and if we fail…. can we put out a tendering advert in the Times?
Wanted – new government for Scotland.
Must be situated outwith Scotland’s landmass,
No democratic votes required.
Knowledge of Scotland’s political wishes, economy, culture, environment, languages – not required in any way, in fact complete ignorance a positive.
A history of sexual offences against children, while not ideal will be no barrier to applications.
Must be willing and able to take and misappropriate all Scotland’s valuable assets.
Except we don’t get to set the agenda for debate the media does and our politicians are forced through media participation to adopt the agenda presented through a line of questioning.
In 2014 our main strength was our ground roots support and activities on the ground campaign yet its inadequate in todays day and age where media is truth through perception repetition lazy research and convincing soundbytes. Especially to the largest bloc voter group in Scotland the pensioners. If we don’t convince the over 55s we aint going to get over the line.
The TV couch potato’s who absorb a daily dose of BBC ITV SKY coupled with the Daily whatever in print all of which will tell them the exact same thing over and over and over.
So without a continuous sustained campaign of mainstream media debunking and discrediting it wont matter what message we try to put across it will simply be smothered under the very type of noise you want to avoid from our side of the argument.
This blog site is actually performing the very best examples of media debunking Ive ever come across anywhere its a pity you are only a single example when its this type of campaigning that’s needed in terms of Mainstream media proportions.
We should campaign by challenging the media on every single issue they print publish broadcast or promote build up the perception of an unreliable discredited reputation before they get the chance once again to hit us with vows promises fake stats figures claims scare stories and bribes.
” Nothing will change after independence except the power to change everything” Tommy Sheppard.
Juan says:
10 June, 2018 at 2:05 pm
EVERY country should govern themselves. Scotland is a country and wanting Scotland to govern itself isn’t Nationism, it’s NORMAL.
That statement is so simple it’s brilliant, perhaps we should always refer to ourselves as Normalists because that’s what we are, we just want to be a normal country
Another example of the power the media has to influence the referendum result is through suppression of representation.
We’re seeing a prime example of it though the BBC news channels and programs like Question time where the agenda of Scottish Independence is simply ignored.
The First Minister of Scotland the day before her big conference is asked to talk about the Loch Ness Monster.
That’s a singular example of media suppression. Keeping MPs from the 3rd largest representative party in Westminster from Televised political debates is another.
It wont matter what our message is if we don’t have the means to deliver it.
Unfortunately, ideas that Sovereignty is really the most important thing won’t cut any ice with a significant portion of the electorate who will vote for Independence if they think they will be better off than in the Union.
Sovereignty is an intellectual thing which won’t persuade people who are materialistic.
This is why you need projections as to an Independent Scotland’s future wealth. Then, of course, you get problems with the Independence my way or not all crowd.
YES Rev, absolutely. I’ve been arguing this since the National Conversations back in 2007, when articles on the forums kept on putting policies with Independence, when there should indeed be NONE apart from Independence itself.
Every single policy has supporters and opposers, the more the policies, the more people oppose on the basis of what’s important for them.
Keep it simple – and non-party political.
galamcennalath says:
10 June, 2018 at 1:49 pm
From WoS Twitter …
” cliff mccabe
The ability to decide takes precedence over any decision. “
…. 9 words. Sums everything up perfectly. A good mantra for campaigning.
I like that a lot too.
Think about it too, because it requires Unionists to defend Scotland’s Sovereignty in principle, Otherwise they not only to sell the concept of Union to people, but sell them a Union they can never voluntarily get out, of because it’s a Union where your democracy is an exercise in impotence, and can be legitimately ignored.
It’s not just your subjugation, but your “forever” subjugation.
george wood says:
10 June, 2018 at 3:00 pm
Unfortunately, ideas that Sovereignty is really the most important thing won’t cut any ice with a significant portion of the electorate who will vote for Independence if they think they will be better off than in the Union.
Yes George, but then, it doesn’t have to.
We do not require a democratic majority for it, or against it. The same Sovereignty “made safe” would empower both decisions, making a NO majority as Sovereign as a YES majority, but enshrining the choice as a Sovereign choice home made in Scotland.
@Daisey Walker 2:22
Brilliant, though I hope that’s the Oslo Tiimes the adverts going into. At least the Norwegians have a more equitable society, are coping better with their “burden of oil” and seem oblivious for the need to bomb others and be a world power.
If we HAVE to be a Colony, we should at least weigh up the options.
Reminds me of an absolutely ludicrous circular conversation I had with my sister in August 2014 which focussed on what colour the postboxes would be painted in an independent Scotland or even whether they’d continue to exisit at all. Her opinion was that they’d have to be blue, my position was that it didn’t fucking matter. In the last campaign everyone was far too busy arguing about the minutiae to look at the bigger picture. Independence first, then we’ll get round to painting postboxes when we get to it.
By the way, this is what forced me to post on the Herald after packing it in after the march and Leask affiar, was it Indy, was it the SNP, was it Sturgeon, was it the SGC report?
link to archive.is
No, it’s some areshole from Brighton telling us not to encourage tourism to Skye, Loch Ness or Edinburgh, Well, I was on Skye just before the Bank Holiday, and it was busy but you could get around fine, I did. And I was in Edinburgh Wednesaday, even up Corstophine Road which was actually easier than last time about 20 years ago (it was a 2 lane M8 was the problem, I dived down to Bathgate and the A89 – big mistake). And Loch Ness is not nose to tail either, you can usually do 40 minimu, usually 50 and more if you know the road.
These ignorant arrogant dicks from other countries would really like to evict the natives from Scotland, and in our place have wolves, bears, lions and tigers and probably polar fucking bears as well. Maybe we could be fed to them as live prey.
I fucking hates these dickheads.
Well said sir.
At the moment the independence movement can be likened to the golf club committee arguing about the price of a cup of tea when the golf course id covered in weeds and tumbleweed.
I agree with others that this is a brilliant post by Rev Stu. I do hope Nicola reads it and takes it on board.
The Channel 4 news interview where Nicola could not remember some figure and was continually challenged to come up with an answer, is a very good demonstration of how we have again fallen into the trap of playing the game the Unionist way.
It most certainly is time to promote the message that once we are independent “it is you the voter who will choose what happens”.
This is such a positive thread and really opens up the conversations. Remember ‘Wheesht for Indy’ where it was claimed we were stifling debate to get Indy first? The last few weeks have blown that apart. Everything is up for debate, all the possibilities of what we could become.
The Growth Commission did a good thing – it refuted the idea that the SNP were afraid to confront the Unionist bogeymen about Scotland becoming independent. Seeing George Kerevan and Roger Mullin debating on Sunday Politics shows there are many opinions about the way the economy could be managed never mind social policy, defence, etc. That is the types of conversations we need to have with the doubters.
I agree we cannot fall into the trap of how much this will cost and that will cost based on the Unionist models and the status quo.
Yep, well said.
In the main people are feart of change, so they need to know that they can choose and have a say in how any change might impact their lives. Being tied to the rUK is holding Scotland back.
The Scottish government are already cushioning the terrible, cruel blows from the UKgov to the most vulnerable people, and with a UKgov who refuse to devolve powers that could further ‘better’ the lives of the most vulnerable, as well as progressing the economy. After decades of colonial rule, Scotland deserves and needs independence.
@Footsoldier
There was an article about that in the Herald yesterday, and strangely enough a Labour supporting decent poster, anti-Indy mostly, defended her on the basis politicians can’t always have these figures at their fingertips. So perhaps the human side equals the “I forgot” side. Politicians are human too. I’ve done the same by the way, some of these attacks on politicians are too partisan and apart from being wrong, don’t win over NO voters to YES, which is supposed to be the point of the whole thig.
Mundell on the other hand is fair game 🙂
Excellent analysis of the independence question. I wish the SNP would take it on board.
INDEPENDENCE IS NORMAL
Great Article Rev
That’s what its all about, thats what its always been about!
The Yes campaign has no business tryin to answer questions on currency ect..
The Yes campaign only has a responsibility to demonstrate the range of options available,to make its proposition work,and, now between the Growth Report and the work of Common Weal the information is right there for anyone who cares to look as to how their proposal could be done.
And the proposition IS that… The Treaty of the Union no longer works for Scotland,and we should vote to end it..
The Yes campaign have done everything asked of it and shown that there is a way forward for Scotland outside the UK Union arrangements,and done so in a great deal of detail!
Now that the People of Scotland have a demonstrably credible choice they will be using the mandate that they, in their wisdom,decided to give Holyrood to make such a choice.
The ,OPT OUT, Scotland gave itself!
Therefore
Now is the time for those who advocate the current UK Union arrangements to step forward and tell the Scottish people,what that offer is!
We need to know…What they believe,and Why?
Are they sayin that “this is as good as it gets”?
That THIS is the best possible deal for Scotland?
That Opt Outs aren’t real?
Can they explain why the Treaty agreement that puts “one of Scotland’s Government’s” in Westminster is still a good idea?
Can they show in what ways since 2014 when the Scottish people approved of the Treaty that they have been proven right to have done so ?
Do they still advocate tinkering around with the way the Treaty is working?
How many times do they believe the Treaty arrangements can be minipulated?
If this Treaty keeps having to be adjusted,can they still maintain that it’s any good?
What Exactly is so good about it that it should cost us the EU treaty arrangements?
As for the EU … Of course if that Union is a good one for Scotland of we would join it…
But that has very little to do with the UK Union being “the best deal possible”for the Governance of Scotland?
Anent the mediocre (at best) Sarah Smith & her daft questions, remember that her family had done extremely well out of this Union, her Maw continues to rake in cash from the House of Lords & she herself owes her position to the bed she was born in! The SNP conference is an affront to a Sarah Smith whose pater’s bones lie beside 48 Scottish kings, 8 Norwegian kings & 4 Irish kings! Hubris or whit?
A lot of the better together campaign was about giving people a reason to make them feel better for their “no” vote. ” I would have voted for indy but… ach that Alex Salmond…etc, so they could go to work the day after the vote and tell themselves that they had “done it for Scotland”. The establishment will be doing the same again, singling out supposed policies of an independent Scotland and inviting people to hang their “no” on whatever one they don’t like.
We absolutely must keep this about principle and not policy (or politics).
The big difference from 2014 is ‘President Salmond’. To many Nos the 2014 alternative to a livable with status quo was ThatAlickSalmond, a discredited White Paper and a majority SNP riding rampant over Scotland with no proper plans of how to reach the ‘sunny uplands’.
Now its Nicola with hers and others plans a plenty and the SNP in a minority; anything they want to do to us has to get past the Holyrood Parliament first. No longer are we being asked to buy a pig in a poke but this time, the chance to choose which pig
Big difference & Up the unsmoked streaky rashers!
Beware of the Blue, Red or even Grey squirrels they want us talk about.
After a YES vote we can talk about things.
O/T
O/T
The Rev mentioned on Twitter that there had been a mini-fest in Bath with tickets priced at £160.In August 1970 I went to the Isle of Wight to see:- THE WHO/JETHRO TULL/TASTE (Rory Gallagher)/SLY & THE FAMILY STONE/THE DOORS/JONI MITCHELL/FREE/MILES DAVIS/LEONARD COHEN….oh and JIMI HENDRIX
Re last post….Price:£5.
My vote for Independence is to give future generations the right to shape Scotland.
What they do with that right is of secondary importance.
What I do know is that they will live in a society THEY created and not one thrust upon them.
The policies that impact their daily life will be what the majority living in Scotland voted for and not what the South of England residents voted for.
…so focus on the right to be a nation and stop pushing conditions linked to your vote. If you think the vote is for more radical environmental polices or left wing dogma then you are missing the point.
Vote YES for an unconditional gift to future generations of Scots to decide their future. As with any gift it will thereafter belong to them to use as they choose. The gift to your child of a car on the condition that they can only go where you want to go is not that appealing!!!
Re last post @ 5-56pm
Price of ticket for weekend: £5.
Love the ‘dress rehearsal’ idea.
Brexit retrospectively turned 2014 into that.
And the most important lesson learned from that dress rehearsal.
The ‘yes’ side must not allow themselves to be sucked into the establishment game of detail during the ‘real’ referendum.
What about..?
Irrelevant. The people of an independent Scotland will decide.
It will drive the ‘no’ camp crazy.
Kevin Hague’s head will explode as it overloads with graphs.
And you can drive the Scots in the ‘no’ camp even crazier by pointing out that in an independent Scotland –
they can start their own campaign for re-entry into Ruk!
And make sure you have your serious face on when you say it.
I’ve always thought like this as without Independence there is no option to change any policy. It really is that simple.
If we want to do things differently from what Westminster dictate we should do then we need all the powers not just devolution.
The way I see it is that those powers that are currently devolved and under the control of a Scottish government in Holyrood are used to benefit many more of the population than we would have if nothing was devolved.
Independence means everything is “devolved” every area of our lives will be under the control of the politicians that Scotland’s voters choose to elect and not those elected by another country through sheer force of numbers.
Let’s stick to the message. Independence first.
Euan Whazermy 5:28pm
Good points. The vast majority of the media establishment will never give the indpendence movement a fair hearing, so why play by their rules?
Pro-indy politicians must declare the truth over and over again: the prejudiced britnat media is blatant in its anti-Scottish attitude.
The rest of us must boycott all britnat media. Don’t pay the bbc tax.
Thank heavens somebody has finally nailed this policy nonsense.
It’s really simple, ‘do you want Scotland to make its own decision like ALL other countries?’ That is all.
I too am tired of all the policy baggage dumped on independence, and you know what, it only makes it easier for those who argue against independence.
This article, is right up there with the very best by REV STU. If possible, it should be stapled to the foreheads of the clowns who spend their time arguing about this policy and that policy (talking about you, Bella).
Independence is NOT about policy, it is about Scotland running its own affairs. It is that f*****g simple.
Once we are independent, then we choose the government we want via elections.
(have to say, I think the SNP are their own worst enemies when it comes to this).
@Orri “Personally I think the answer to the monarchy is to insist Scotland gets the monarchy it’s meant to have had since 1320…”
The best thing to do about the monarchy is not give a toss about it. Who cares!? If some people need to cling on to it as some sort of psychological comfort blanket then leave them with it. Basically, who cares.
Once Charlie Boy and his squeeze are monarchs – even England will likely start questioning it. Why waste time on a problem that may well resolve itself?
@yesindyref2 3.37
I forced myself to read the crap in the Herald and now feel the need to gouge out my eyes. The drivel in that paper seems to fall neatly into the Rev’s “some arsehole says” category. I cannot imagine any other tourist destination in the world would ever decide to try to cut the number of tourists to any of their top attractions. Paris? Rome? Venice? Barcelona? The fact that these particular arseholes, who were quoted, seem to be based in Brighton makes my blood boil and smacks of a tame bunch of UK arseholes who denigrate Scotland from another country. I was in Whitby (England) a few days ago. You could not squeeze through the crowds. I was in York (England) a couple of days ago – ditto. Not many public toilets in either place I think. Should I ask them if Yorkshire’s top attractions need to be kept quiet?
“It’s really simple, ‘do you want Scotland to make its own decision like ALL other countries?’ That is all.”
Robert Louis: very concise, although there are so many groovy aphorisms btl on this thread from Stu’s Vile Sep Brains’ Trust.
Fred @5.24:”The SNP conference is an affront to a Sarah Smith whose pater’s bones lie beside 48 Scottish kings, 8 Norwegian kings & 4 Irish kings! Hubris or whit?”
Hubris was never King of Scots, Fred.
I’ll get my codpiece……
Independence first, then we have the opportunities to decide policies for Scotland in Scotland by Scots.
As well as focusing Yessers of all persuasions, it back foots Naesayers.
When they disagree with that simple but strong argument, they must be challenged on their alternative. Instead of changing the subject to currency, pensions, borders, whatever … they must be forced to address the key proposal, that it is morally wrong for others to be imposing policies on Scots when they don’t want them. That’s been going on far too long, and independence addresses this fundamental democratic deficit.
If they admit they believe London knows best and we should just get on with eating our All Bran, that honesty could convert thousands!
OFF-TOPIC
Scotland has just beaten England AT CRICKET.
This year, we have beaten them at Basketball at the Commonwealth Games.
We beat them at rugby in the Calcutta Cup.
Now, at cricket – do you think they might let us go?
It would be less embarrassing than continually losing to a nation which was too wee, too poor and too stupid.
Do I want Scotland to be Independent?
YES !
I have always tried to explain to people that they aren’t voting for the SNP. It’s bigger than any party and more important too. The yoons love the party political debate, because it plays into their narrative. It narrows the independence vote into SNP vs Tory etc.
We win by taking the majority of Scotland with us. Right , left, middle. We lose by following the ultra left wingers or ultra EU believes. I am an ultra EU believer , anti Trident, anti monarchy but also anti Nato and anti Sterling. I know what and why I am voting for , but many people dont get it. They need to be made aware it’s not the SNP or ideology they are voting for.
When it comes to sovereignty I am with every shade or hue of Scot. We are together for Scotland then we can discuss the shape of our nation.
We can finally drop the tribal politics of Scot versus Brit. It’s easy to hate the Tories if you hate the Union flag. It’s harder to hate people who are part of your true nation.
One size definitely does not fit all.
IMO the YES campaign made a serious blunder in 2014 with their leftwing newsletters. Leftie ideas are fine and inspire many. However, it was not a smart move to distribute them in posh SNP areas in NE Scotland. In my keenness to contribute, I delivered quite a few to well off areas in Aberdeen, but I did feel at the time that they may be counter-productive in the wrong areas.
The Yes campaign can make the same mistake and produce leftie newsletters for posh areas. I for one, won’t be distributing them this time.
Re the Herald story about supposed over-tourism in Skye, Edinburgh and Loch Ness The call quoted in the paper “Visit Scotland should cease marketing any destination that’s exhibiting signs of over-tourism with immediate effect” comes from a Brighton-based travel agency which is currently advertising many famous and overcrowded destinations worldwide. It has three pages of adverts for holidays in Scotland – including Skye, Edinburgh and Loch Ness. The paper says that destinations are overcrowded because of being used as film locations. The aforesaid travel agency is also advertising an “Outlander Tour”. Hypocrisy or what? What the hell is going on? What is the Herald playing at? Don’t answer – I can guess.
Apparently Scotland won at doing something called cricket and it means there can be no more crickets ever again because we’ve had the cricket and it’s been decided and Scotland are the champions of it forever
What is cricket?
Watched the one day cricket match at the Grange in Edinburgh against England.What a great game and a brilliant victory for Scotland.
Thought the English commentators were very fair throughout the game and generous in their praise of Scotland at the nail-biting end.
The sun shone and a full house.Plenty beer consumed and great support for the home team. The commentator mentioned what a great crowd, lots of partisan support but respect for opponents.
This would be the normal good relationship between neighbouring countries and also fierce rivals.
Well done to Michael Atherton for his excellent and unbiased commentary.
If only we lived in countries of equal respect.
Luigi
Absolutely correct. The best Yes literature by far was Wings Wee Blue Book.
No left wing polemics, no capitalism, just facts about how Scotland could be Independent.
I think people who attend the Under One Banner marches with banners proclaiming ‘Smash the Tories’ or ‘Republican Scotland’ and similar partisan slogans are simply self indulgent and are likely to drive away potential ‘Yes’ voters.
As others have pointed out, we need every vote. After Inde anything goes.
So in essence, until after independence is achieved, we’re ‘all under one banner’ – the objective simple, winning Scotland’s independence and not achieving our personal or our preferred political party’s vision of an independent Scotland.
All welcome under the banner – even a Tory IF he/she could genuinely support our independence. And after independence? I still won’t vote for anything like a Tory! In other words, afterwards it can be politics as normal in a normal, independent country if a majority is content with that.
Implication? In the spirit of being open to all those that might be persuadable, however unlikely, to support independence, no need for ‘Tory scum’ banners at Bannockburn or elsewhere at Yes movement events?
The trick is to maintain a simple message of independence with enough necessary, effective messages of reassurance on viability and risk of independence.
Soft and Remain Tory MPs are being asked to f’ck over the whole UK, forget their own stance, and put their party and government first.
So in usual gutless unprincipled Tory style, they will do exactly that this week.
Corbyn and Labour will do no better.
Od dear, a lot of tonic for the troops stuff in this discussion, but that won’t win over soft yes’s or soft no’s.
If we go into an Indyref2 without a position on the major things such as the currency and EU membership, then we can kiss goodbye to any chance we have of winning it. We got hit hard on the currency last time, because there was doubt about it in the public’s mind. To go into Indyref2 without saying which currency we are going to have would be much worse.
Remember how Independence was thought of before Indyref1 was called. It was not considered a serious thing by most people. Even calling the referendum didn’t change people’s perceptions in my experience. What made the difference was the White Paper which put meat on the bones and suddenly Independence became a serious thing to consider.
If we hadn’t got the White Paper then I don’t think we would have got anywhere in the referendum and we would not be talking of Indref2 now. Going back to having Independence being a vague concept is a terrible mistake.
This time round we are in a much better position (recent Social Attitudes poll for example) and we should stick to the position we had last time with the exception of change in the currency position from a union to a temporary use of sterling. We have pretty much the Goldilocks mixture of policies already.
I don’t think intellectual concepts of Independence are a vote winner. What use are they when sombody says “My heart says yes, but my wallet says no”. What use are they when somebody like my work colleague says “All I want to know is will I be better off financially with Independence”.
The No campaign will be talking/lying about things that matter to people and the Yes campaign will be talking about airy-fairy concepts. I don’t see how we can win on that basis.
@Benhope
Watched it too and it was a close game with good commentary.
That runout and then the LBW right at the end was a great relief. 🙂
Mike Denness captain of England in the 70’s born in Scotland.
I watched many a game in black and white and tuned into radio 3 in days gone by.
Loved the Aussies Keith Miller and Benuad to name a couple of great players.
Anyhoo! Well done Scotland.
PS:
Aye independence then….watch us get on!
There is nothing specifically Scottish about the overtourism debate.
link to archive.is
There were Scots at the WTM 2017
link to archive.is
And there will always be somewhere which says
“Well, you can always come here”!
link to archive.is
George Wood 8.10
Read the thread again.
The whole point is putting forward the argument that an indyref2 ‘yes’ campaign will NOT be talking about airy fairy concepts.
Just one simple idea.
An entertaining Brexit analysis …
“The choice facing the British is whether now to either shoot themselves in the foot or the head. Or maybe just put the gun down.”
link to irishtimes.com
The Irish media really does deal with Brexit far more realistically and honestly.
Simply put.
but ‘Yes’ then decide – the simplest answer.
cos ‘No’ means you get nothing new, indeed less.
George Wood @ 8.10
But you can answer your Colleague..
Obviously he will be better of.. because if it was looking like he wasn’t going to be he can get himself a Government who will make it so…
Or…. How can he make a Westminster Government improve his situation,when it needs to always take care of London first?
Is it no obvious that all that Scotland collected will be shared between 5 million and no 65 million,Whisky alone is, I think, worth around 5 million.
But if he needs that to be on the side of a bus,then you’d be better talking to someone else!
But if he is genuinely wanting to know,all the answers he needs are in the Growth Report or How to Build a New Country.
The Yes campaign have spent time and treasure to make them available to anyone,so that the concepts of a yes vote cannot be called wishfull thinking anymore..
We are no talking about airy fairy stuff,but the best deal for Scotland.
Simple really..
Is staying in the current UK Union the best thing or bringing the Government home the best thing?
Pick a Parliament that you can keep within slapping distance and your more likely than not to see some of the countries wealth,or keep Westminster… But if he still says he wants Westminster then ask HIM why!
@mike cassidy (8.30) re George Wood (8.10) –
Exactly.
This post is the closest I’ve seen to a distillation of the 766k comments on this place since it started, and the Buckaroo analogy is inspired.
When you strip out all the obvious troll-stuff, blind-alleys and bickering, this is what ‘WE’ commenters have been saying for the past five years. It helps explain (for those who require explanation) why this site has become so popular.
‘Eyes On The Prize’ still sums it up, for me anyway. Everything else is just fluff. Post-indy, we can bicker to our hearts content about whatever we like (and do so with home-grown Tories if need be) but the priority, always, has to be the complete removal of WM/EtonBoy control over our affairs.
As Westminster transfers Ulster to Ireland the hard conservative vote will wobble as they undermine their own grea Britain model
The farming and fishing community must now see the brexit writing on the wall for them
Let brexit proceed and call indyref2 on a short timetable
I don’t think anyone here thinks (or has said) that over-tourism is a purely Scottish phenomenon. The point is that a supposedly Scottish paper printed an opinion from a Brighton-based travel agent that “Visit Scotland should cease marketing any destination that’s exhibiting signs of over-tourism with immediate effect” while simultaneously advertising holidays in “over-tourism” destinations in Scotland (and other countries e.g. Italy, South America). The Herald’s focus was entirely on Scotland. Brighton-based travel agency bloke focused on Scotland. We should be able to accept constructive criticism of Scotland but not hypocrisy. I sympathise with other countries where over-tourism may be a problem but that is not the point.
After the Growth Commission report was published the MSM headlines were full “Splits within the Indy Camp” ect. Opponents of Independence thrive on such headlines.
To them there is nothing more appealing than to believe and read about Yes supporters squabbling with one another. We needn’t squabble, at least not yet since Independence is yet to be won. Don’t give them the pleasure, we all need to work together no matter your favourite flavour of politics until we first gain Independence.
The answer to any and all questions be it currency, monarchy or trident etc, is that the Scottish public will vote for the party who’s policies most suit their own after we’re Independent. It’s a damn better option that we currently have where a government is imposed on us no matter what we think.
That’s why we’re leaving the EU despite 62% voting Remain. We weren’t given any choice and would be OUT even if 100% of Scots voted to Remain. That is no choice at all but instead is dictatorship. Time we made our own decisions.
Wait! Scotland has beaten England at cricket?!? 😯
Doesn’t that mean that either Humza Yousaf should resign for something he hasn’t done, or that we’re instantly independent?
Never sure about the rules of that game. Was it done with a sand wedge or a driver? Maybe a caman?
@Liz g
A quick google. Whisky
link to archive.is
I don’t like cricket oh no, I love it.
For another sport, if the question is:
“Do you support England?”
the answer is
“Scotland’s been doing that since 1707.”.
@remo
Maybe the Herald editor is a second homer on Skye, and don’t like tourists. Certainly the paper has never done anything FOR tourism that I can recall, only bad stories.
Congrats to my friends north of the (Eng-Scot) border for their stunning win @ cricket over you-know-who.
But did you know *we* actually got there first – 16 years ago?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15348/scorecard/118026/england-vs-wales–natwest-challenge-2002
“Do you support England?”
the answer is
“Scotland’s been doing that since 1707.”.
Smooth, yesindyref2, smooth.
stewartb @ 19:56,
Agreed. Everyone has invested their own personal hopes in what indy might bring, but there’s no need to foist them on others who are likely to disagree. Not all our hopes will likely be realised in the event, but at least we will all have a flying chance. That’s all we have a right to expect.
Personally, I wouldn’t ever likely contemplate voting Tory, but shouting out anti-Tory political slogans or flaunting such banners at marches may be feelgood for some, but it gives entirely the wrong message to the people we need to convert.
AUOB should mean exactly that. All.
george wood @ 10:10,
I know what you mean, George. Some time ago, someone (alas, I forget who) posted a comment that has stuck with me ever since, and it was this: we need to keep our governors within easy kicking distance.
As others have already said, that’s what keeps things right. It’s not a matter of political party at all, since they all tend to get fossilised after a while in charge. (NB: a warning to those who seem to think we can afford to wait forever and a day for IR2. The tolerance factor is already starting to wear.)
Another democratic plus of indy: we junk a shedload of olde-world UK elections and all the media cr*p that goes with them. (To which add whatever new referendums the hoary old WM will produce in the future as it struggles with its own massive democratic deficit, its redundant old crusties, plus an ancient wreck of a building that will cost a king’s ransom to put back in a safe palatial condition again.)
Seriously, why should we stay in a system where we are permanently out-voted on everything, then told to shut up when we begin to question the manifest unfairness of it all?
Never mind just the inherent cost to our pockets, what about the cost to our self-respect?
I’ve said it myself, it really has to be independence first. The only question then to be asked is very simple:
who chooses?
Scary or what…?!
Sorry, in my last posting that should have been george wood @ 20:10, not 10:10.
@Tinto Chiel
True as well, Scotland has been paying off England’s war debts in exchange for a few Barons selling out Scotland to pay off their gambling debts (Darien), and we’ve been propping them up, maybe bar a few years if you don’t include compound interest, ever since.
So, I was surfing, looking for coverage of Scotland’s extraordinary victory in the cricket. On the BBC News website, the Scotland homepage doesn’t cover it. In fact, the only sports story they run is “Scottish Rugby “Toxic””.
The BBC News UK homepage, on the other hand, has the cricket story as the third item.
Why is BBC Scotland so anti-Scottish?
Great article.
I agree.
One thing further.
The independence movement should counter every British nationalist point with a more positive point.
In politics your point does not have to be written in stone.
As we know the VOW won the day for the British nationalists in 2014
This time the YES VOW will win the day
We can determine how the YES VOW is carried forward after independence is achieved
Cheaper electricity and gas
Cheaper petrol and diesel
Lower council tax
Lower taxes
Higher wages
More and improved help with housebuying
A massive house building programme
New bridges
Better ferries
Better roads
More flight destinations
The list is endless
The YES VOW cannot be disproved because a future independent Scottish government has not decided in which order all of these will be implemented but they will without doubt be implemented once Scotland is independent
Call me Dave @ 9.42
Oops…. Well at least I cannae be accused of exaggerating the value of Whisky million/billion
Potatoes/Potatoes….LOL
But thanks for noticing
@yesindyref2: all true. I have to laugh that this was a voluntary union. Most of the only folk eligible to vote in these pre-democratic times were simply bribed; the Act of Union had to be furtively signed in an Embra cellar; there were riots in all the Scottish cities when it got out; meanwhile, the English army menaced the border.
Sounds like a Tory multiplied organism.
I suspect they won’t have revised their play-book much for the next bash, just translated into 21st century terms.
@Tinto Chiel “Sounds like a Tory multiplied organism”
I thought at first you’d written “orgasm”, but that would have been right too.
Regarding AUOB, a group of us spent considerable time and thought before coming up with a banner for the Wings stall to encapsulate the entire campaign. It is shown in prominent position in many pics and videos and was a deliberate reframing of a specific establishment frame which we do not want to trigger.
The banner says: Choose Scotland – Big enough. Smart enough. Rich enough. It is gaining momentum and was in evidence at recent presentations on Reframing at a certain conference. The whole point was, we have enough, we have had enough for a long time, and we have had enough of another country running our affairs. Choose Scotland and let’s get on with it.
Getting involved in detailed discussion of any issue is a distraction. Want to know how to answer the currency “question” or any other establishment planted topic? We are currently recruiting trainers for Reframing workshops which we are rolling out soon across Scotland. Watch out for the Google form to sign up.
Choose Scotland. Big enough. Smart enough. Rich enough.
So the Rev. wants catchy phrases, the side of a bus stuff 🙂
“Aye – believe in Scotland”
“Aye believe in Scotland”
I’ll have to bring the brain out of retirement again…! 😉
Scottish Tory’s a far from united party
link to caltonjock.com
So in my lifetime a Scot has won Wimbledon and Scotland have now beaten the auld enemy at cricket. When I was a youngster these ideas were as crazy and as outlandish as Scotland being independent but they’ve happened.
George Wood at 8.10pm
so… we’re… ‘better off with Indy’
Oh Yes.
Off topic … but sharing a wee bit of info for BBC/MSM watchers.
BBC Wales (in English) reports in BREAKING NEWS (now 23:07) that two men have died in a light aircraft crash in Monmouthshire, Wales.
BBC Cymru (in Welsh) reports the same story 4 hours ago.
________
Draw your own conclusions.
There is a great deal of jumping guns going on today on Wings and more than a few wrong claims being made.
Can we please stick to actual facts?
Yes Scotland is indeed a country but in the context of, “The United KINGDOM”, the important fact is that Scotland is a Kingdom as is the, KINGDOM of England, but while Scotland is composed of just one country the, “KINGDOM of England is composed of three countries, or, to be more precise, two and one half countries. (Ireland is a country that is politically partitioned).
So to stick with legal facts, the United Kingdom was formed in 1706/7 as a United Kingdom and has never legally been a unified country and that is the very crux of the matter. That Treaty of Union has only the signatures of two, equally sovereign, Kingdoms on what is still today a legal International Treaty. The claims that there was an Anglo-Irish Treaty of Union is bogus history.
Ireland become an integral part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland Act. That was before there was a United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1706/7. So Ireland, all of it, was brought into the United Kingdom in 1706/7 as part of the Kingdom of England. Wales was also part of the Kingdom of England after the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284.
The country of Ireland was first partitioned with the formation of The Irish Free State in 1922 but the Irish Free State was a United Kingdom Dominion and certainly was not, “Free”. The Irish Free State was dissolved in Date dissolved on 29 December 1937., when The Irish Free State dissolved itself and declared itself a republic.
Northern Ireland was given the option to go either way – with the Republic or with the United Kingdom. It chose to go with the United Kingdom but as all Ireland had already been part of the Kingdom of England since 1542 the change in 1800/1 agreement was not a treaty of union but the actual title, (this from memory so check it if you like), was along the lines of, “The Anglo-Irish Agreement”, so the only actual thing it did was to change the title of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, to, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland but, as already shown, all Ireland was annexed, (not united with), by the Kingdom of England in 1542.
So, with that explained – let’s get down to brass tacks.
The United Kingdom is a two partner Kingdom formed by the still legally active Treaty of Union 1706/7. It is not being run as such and it never has been – but that is what it legally is.
Now brass tacks states, (Article 19 of the Treaty of Union), that the two Rules of Law of the ONLY two, equally sovereign, kingdoms have, and will always remain to have, their own individual legal systems. The good reason for this is that the two kingdoms systems of law are incompatible. In that in the three country Kingdom of England has a legally sovereign monarchy, who, (in 1688), legally agreed(read as were forced), to legally delegate their Divine Right of Kings/Queens, to the Parliament of England.
While, under Scots law the people of Scotland were/are legally sovereign since 1320. and there is the case that needs to be made known to the people of Scotland.
As should be made known the legal shenanigans that forced the Treaty of Union upon the Kingdom of Scotland. BTW: There really is no need for Scotland to declare itself a Republic for under Scots law the monarchy, (and hence the Parliament of Scotland), is already not sovereign under Scots law and English law does not apply in Scotland. Her majesty, (and hence the Scottish Parliament), are the subjects of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.
As to those shenanigans- The London Scot, William Paterson was working for Sir Robert Harley who was, (among other things), the English Spy master. Paterson instigated the subscription scheme to bail out the English monarchy/parliament that became the Bank of England.
Then Paterson popped up in Edinburgh and instigated the disastrous, (for Scotland) Darien expedition. This was designed to fail from day one. First of al, the English, and the Dutch, pledged to finance 50% of the scheme but, after it was too late to call it off, they withdrew their offer. Next the English crown/parliament ordered the Royal Navy not to help or protect the Scots expeditioners and the Royal Army, (already on the scene – were ordered not to aid the expeditioners.
This led to the wealthy Scottish landowner/parliamentarians going bankrupt but were thus open to the English bribes Those who couldn’t be bribed were either threatened or blackmailed to vote to throw away Scotland’s birth right.
Not to mention that Daniel Defoe, author and English undercover agent, had the ear of the Scots parliamentarians and was reporting back to Robert Harley. His letters are in the English archives today. Then there were the masses English troops at the border and the English fleet lying off the Firth of Forth.
The Treaty of Union was NOT a freely agreed treaty but even if it had been it has never been stuck to by Westminster.
Now all you need to ask yourself is this – How come there has not been an, elected as such, parliament of England since the last day of April 1707 yet now Westminster is the de facto Parliament of England that finances itself as The United Kingdom and lords it over Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as if we were English Dominions?
Legally Westminster hasn’t a leg to stand on and, providing we give the reconvened old Parliament of Scotland our legal sovereignty as, (as a majority), the case can be taken to the international courts or, more likely, just declare the United Kingdom is ended and let the Kingdom of England take Scotland to the international courts – and good luck with that Westminster.
@Robert Peffers at 11.17 p.m.
How I wish that the Scottish Government would read your final paragraph and act accordingly. It sounds unarguable.
What a relief it would be to be shot of Westminster and in control of all our decisions, just like normal countries.
Sigh.
luigi
i think you are correct about the early yes newspapers but as the campaign progressed the literature got better
eg
link to flickr.com
and the polling place poster with the babies hand was excellent too as was the final ppb. remember how piss awful the bt ppb and leaflets were?
but i agree with much that is on this thread, peter bell said recently in one of his articles that ” diversity was our strength in indyref1, indeed it is always a strength in grass roots movements, but it was often repeated simplicity of the no campaign which won the day” (paraphrased)
we dont need another 640 page white paper, for detailed info the wbb2 will be more than enough.
detailed leaflets should be attacking the union, eg, we dont need to say how much the pension will be in an indy scotland, i saw a graphic on twitter showing the uk pension compared with other eu countries and it was bottom of the list. although, pensions is something that a detailed promise of an increase would be useful convincing oaps
we will need some basic outline of the direction of travel. we cant just ignore major issues like currency and the eu. if only to get people singing from the same sheet.
but we do need some catch phrases, yes we can, big enough rich enough smart enough, enough is enough etc,
stu should run a competition,
Terence callachan
i think a yes vow is a great idea,
indy ismiles better 🙂
Clootie 6.02 pm
well said. Summed it up perfectly.
gala
lol@backstop means backstop
@mike cassidy says: 10 June, 2018 at 6:23 pm:
“It will drive the ‘no’ camp crazy.”
Ah dinna believe ye cud drive the no camp ony mair crazy than they ir awreadies.
“Kevin Hague’s head will explode as it overloads with graphs.”
Kevin’s heid wull no explode – it micht implode but.
Thir’s naetin in Kevin’s heid an they aye say, “Nature abhors a vacuum”.
I’m no much good wi slogans but… For what its worth.
Since Sovereignty has been punted by the Media, Westminster version of course.
We need to be making a distinction,because if we keep to the Buckaroo Principle its bound to come up..
It can be a dry lengthy subject unless it’s yer personal hobby horse…
So..
I tried to think of a quick way to describe what we in Scotland mean by Sovereignty, that most could grasp, for someone who has about 30 seconds to explain…
Think of it like Defence…
To get the whole thing and make it work we need an Army,a Navy and an Air Force.
We call this the -Military-
Or. (Depending on who is asking)
We understand God to be equally
The Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit…each is a necessary part of the whole
We call this the Trinity
In Scotland we have
Scotland’s People
The Parliament
Scottish Law
In Scotland we call this -Sovereignty-
Each needs to be present and able to exercise its own power for Sovereignty to work as it should…
The problem is obviously the Parliament…
Our rightful Sovereignty is trying to operate in a Parliament that has a different kind of Sovereignty.
Ours has nae need of Crowns,Lords or Remembrencers….
There is indeed a part of our Sovereignty, that, because it is in Holyrood has been working only on the instructions of the Sovereign Scots.
But we have to accept that we are leaving some very important parts of our precious Sovereignty in the Westminster system..
While it is our right to do so… It is also our right to change this at any time..
We should note that…
Scottish Law still works,….always has
Scottish politicians still work,….always have
It is the People part that is being sacrificed and diluted between two Governments…. Bring that home and the Sovereignty that has always been ours can finally be realised,and reach its full power.
I hope that helps somebody to explain!!
Don’t know about Indy ref two slogans as I said but, when it comes to Sovereignty… As some ” Highlander” once said..
….. There can, Be, only one…..
Anyhoo I’m now going to spend the rest of the night hiding from Robert Peffers..LOL
The Treaty of Union began as a con trick.
It remains a bigger con trick today.
Let’s us end it by a democratic vote of no confidence or perhaps a vote of no competence.
A bit OT here (when am I never) but, can anyone possibly link me to a list of how many surgeries have been held by the current crop of MSPs? Thank you in advance for any help. Much appreciated.
An important message Stuart, standing ovation.
To re-iterate some Independence First educational material from 10+ years ago, while the figures are slightly out of date, the underlying message is the same:
Hope the SNP leadership is listening – there is only one all important next stage, the rest is secondary and even their very consideration and inclusion now might be self-defeating.
Independence First.
Independence precludes nothing from future consideration.
A bus slogan… here’s one howsabout..
“Let’s bring Scotland HOME, what’s the alternative?”
Yeah would be good to get some new ‘fun’ slogans for AUOB.
Three four, shut the door (said Barney) 🙂
really like the idea of a yes vow
come to think of it, wbb2 sounds bit old hat, why not call it the yes vow, who better to write it?
thatss gonna stick in murray’s craw lol
Shrodingers Cat @ 1.33
(,I’m no tryin tae pick on you…Really I’m not)
But …A Vow …Really?
I’m all for promoting what is possible,that’s perfectly fine.
A Vow is absolute,it actually means something.. Or it should!!
But
We had a Vow in 2014,granted an impossible one that Westminster is by its very nature forbidden to implement, but even so it was a Vow..
We can’t do that… A Vow must be kept,and the Yes movement have neither the power or the right to make one.
Never mind Honour or Trust…Or how important we know it is to win Scotland’s Government back..
IMHO… We have to be aware that as soon as a Yes Vote is delivered,a Reunification Campaign of some description will begin…. We cannot make promises that cannot be kept.
Otherwise we make a rod for our own back.
We have to get out clean and make sure that the idea of reversing the Yes vote is as ridiculous as America becoming a colony again!!
At a guess we are going to at the very least be bombarded with…The People of Scotland,must have the final say on the separation deal….
Now while I know, and you know,it’s a crock…but that narrative is in the public domain!!
We can’t afford to go throwing Vows around..Don’t ye think?
WBB2… Has a solid reputation for telling it like it is,and if its no broken there’s nae need tae fix it!!
Naebody Naw?? Really need a link to said data. Maybe Nana could point me in the right direction this morning. I’ve tried to find it but, I am only getting partial results.
KISS
Keep it simple stupid
Q. How do you get rid of the SNP at Westminster?
A. Vote for independence
Q. How can I get to choose what sort of country I want to live in?
A. Independence
Q. How can we get rid of the braying and quite frankly nasty politics that we are subjected to at the moment?
A. You can’t as long as politicians exist. It is in the nature of politicians, but with independence, they will be our politicians, that we in Scotland voted for.
The only difficulty is winning people over to the fact that Scotland has a right to decide.
It is very easy to ask what about this or that and thus complicating the process. The British do this well, its called divide and rule. An indy campaign should be kept as simple as possible. It will require details if we want to avoid another Brexit like shambles, with the fine detail being a part of any potential government as part of their manifestos.
Once people understand that the detail is secondary and independence is not a party political issue, but a basic human right, then we will see progress.
Everything else can wait. The transition to independence won’t happen overnight and won’t happen before people decide if they want it or if they are happy to be told what to do by a different country. After it is decided, it becomes a normal political race where a government is elected on their manifesto.
Personally, I thing there should be a written constitution that is decided in the transition period after a transition government is formed. I don’t think that party politics, in its current form will work as the Westminster parties all work for the British first and foremost, so they will become redundant in an iScotland, but that is something to be discussed after the Big Issue is decided.
Cactus says:
11 June, 2018 at 1:17 am
A bus slogan… here’s one howsabout..
“Let’s bring Scotland HOME, what’s the alternative?”
Yeah would be good to get some new ‘fun’ slogans for AUOB.
Three four, shut the door (said Barney) ?
_____________________________________________________
Time for independence said Florence.
Boing said Zebedee
Links
Nicola writes to Bercow ahead of EU commons vote
link to archive.is
link to broadcastingscotland.scot
link to randompublicjournal.com
Equinor Strikes Oil In Wildcat Well In The North Sea
link to archive.is
link to businessforscotland.com
link to peterabell.blog
link to newsnet.scot
link to indyref2.scot
link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com
Rolls-Royce set to announce more than 4,000 job cuts
link to archive.is
link to renegadeinc.com
Brexit: going round in circles
link to eureferendum.com
link to thecanary.co
link to euronews.com
link to evolvepolitics.com
link to thisismoney.co.uk
link to thecanary.co
link to thedailybeast.com
link to politico.eu
link to politico.com
@ William Wallace
Posted some info for you off topic. Hope it’s of some help.
This article is critical to the debate shaping the next referendum.
Carolyn Lechie in today’s National proves that point. We have the usual left attack on the SNP using the deputy leadership vote as “evidence” that the far left Utopia is the answer.
The far left should contribute to shaping Scotland but the tail should not wag the dog. I am getting a bit scunnered with the attacks on the very popular main party of Scotland. At the recent RIC the SSP leaflets and speakers were focused on attacking the SNP instead of Westminster.
Post Independence the Holyrood election result will shape the direction of travel but we will not win the Referendum while we have this constant noise from the far left. They do not win elections so why do they think it is for them to dictate policy?
Diversity can be overdone. It was the migrant vote which lost the 2014 IndyRef. If the vote had been GE + 16 year olds. YES would have won?
Independence needs a Central bank. Takes two years? It is being done,
‘Better off’. Everyone in the U.K. Is worse off with Brexit. With more to come. Some people obviously do not go grocery shopping. Or check prices.. Smug in ‘their own’ comfort zone. People are being sanctioned and starved. It is just disgraceful.
How can an IndyRef be called in the middle of Brexit mess. There is likely to be another GE. Maybe the 1/2million people who are supposed to support Independence will go out and vote. Instead of letting the Tories in. Instead of constantly berating the SNP have a word with them. Often they are the ones who complain the most. They did not even vote. Losers. Independence is not just for one IndyRef it is for every vote. Ie vote SNP/SNP. Not only will be Scotland better run but Independence will be achieved. The Tories could not make a bigger mess.
Nicola is the only one making sense. The SNP was not given coverage by MSM. Patronised by ITV.
How about the slogan –
Scottish should run Scotland – YES or NO?
Can some of our professional Camera and Sound people give some basic tips to our budding broadcasters
Scotland has always be left of centre. Most successful countries are capitalist but slightly left of centre. In the middle for stability. It depends on resources which Scotland has got in abundance. The most cohesive, equal and fair countries are happier and more stable. With government intervention for equality and fairness. Worldwide. Pretty much SNP policy.
Just compare IR and NI for growth. Since 1923, even using a pegged £currency.
As an aside, Angus B Macneil has a wee twittewr poll going as to when the next referendum should be held, I would say 2021 but I would also like to quote someone else, can’t remember who it was but, “whatever Year, the next ref should be held on the 4th of July, that should keep the Yanks quiet”!
So which bits of EU membership do Brexiteers want to maintain?
Looks like most of it!
Have cherry pie and eat it, maybe.
link to politico.eu
In 1522 England declared war on Scotland and France
Round two?
More MSM nonsense. Nursery care has not doubled yet. The councils were giver extra money for extended nursery provision. Two years ago? In some places all the places advocated were not taken up. In Aberdeenshire £2Million of extra provision. Costs are awarded as per pupil. It was supposed to be spent on education, which the unionists are always trying to cut. Using the statutory limit (30 pupils) as the norm. Instead of keeping class sizes down with the money allocated.
ACC 100 teachers short. Yet spending £200Million on building hotels and shops. Already saturated. Paying £7million in interest. Spending £300Million on a Conference Centre. Cutting essential services and education funding. They should be building schools and houses instead. Refused a gift of £80million to predestrianise the City. Unionists kept in power by a two job Tory ruining the City. The wind turbines were supposed to be 11 miles out. Not so close to shore. Eyesore.ACC muck up once again. City £1.2Billion in debt causing traffic chaos. The Muse mess diverting roads.
I find it amusing that Englands Brexit debacle and racism in throwing out Polish people from the UK as some sort of scroungers is leading to Poland benefitting from the economic fallout and looking like ending up financially stronger than England
Mon the Poles!
Nana says
“Predicting the winner depends on deciding whether you think its better to have a dying mainstream media or the burgeoning grassroots activist army in your corner.”
Indeed.
With each day that passes, fewer people believe the BBC’s bullshit and fewer read the fake news of the dead tree scrolls.
Nana says:
11 June, 2018 at 6:59 am
link to peterabell.blog
What Peter says, especially in the btl comments resonates with me.
Sometimes I feel if we get to our shelters in time, we can maybe survive the blast and shockwave of Brexit, and if we ration our food and water, after a couple of years once the fallout has began to dissipate a little, we can cautiously emerge from our bunkers and then discover the SNP has at last geared up and is ready for the fight.
For Independence, I place my trust in the legal legitimacy of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.
For Independence, I place my hopes and aspirations in YES and AUOB.
That is all.
You know the odd thing aboutScotland and its independence is this, there are few countries who have become independent in such good circumstances.
On day one of independence, Scotland ALREADY has its own legal system, its own EU compliant justice system, its own education system, its own transport system, its own healthcare, its own university sector, its own power generating capacity, it is self sufficient in food production… and so on.
Other countries have to set these things up from scratch.
Scottish independence, compared to almost ANY other country, is relatively easy. People in positions of power need to stop over complicating it. And we really need to start ignoring the ‘Colin Fox’s’ of this world.
Divide and conquer is the unionist gameplan (as it was with ALL their colonies), and it seems their are some in Scotland who ‘notionally’ support independence who are happy to help them.
Their is an old adage in marketing (which has become a bit of a cliche); ‘keep it simple, stupid’. But it’s right.
As an aside, I watched the video showing how many times unionists used the word independence, since March (and its high), but what was really interesting is that they have clearly decided to ALWAYS refer to it as ‘second referendum’, or ‘second independence referendum’, with the emphasis always on the word ‘second’. Given that 2014 was a rather long time ago, is it not time the indy movement stopped playing by the unionist choice of words, and just started calling it the independence referendum. It isn’t indyref2, it’s just ‘indyref’ or ‘indepencence referendum’. No number is required.
When you add a number, you emphasise the fact this is another indyref, thereby assisting unionists, when in reality the last one was a long time ago.
Its why I always believed we shouldn’t have gone into a referendum with such a detailed manifesto.
We held ourselves to much as hostages to fortune, the British nationalists never set out any detailed polices when they campaigned for devolution or to leave the EU.
We should reassure people that their pensions, benefits, jobs etc, will continue to be safe, secure and paid after independence.
But leave the big decisions like Europe, monarchy and I hate to say it even Trident for the voters to decide on till we are independent.
Liz g says:
11 June, 2018 at 2:56 am
Shrodingers Cat @ 1.33
(,I’m no tryin tae pick on you…Really I’m not)
But …A Vow …Really?
——————-
yup, snigger
would love to see the unionist faces 🙂
also, it can be as vague as we want it to be, same as theirs was,
secondly, after a yes vote, who cares if it is upheld? the unionist didnt uphold their vow.
3rdly, the unionists will very likely try out another vow, why wouldnt they? it worked the last time. we should get in 1st.
4thly, your point about stopping a unionist majority at the next holyrood election, and the subsequent indyref3 which would result, whether that is before or after indyref2, is well made.
however, this is going to be the case regardless of what we vow or promise during indyref2. WGD has already hinted that we may need tactical voting to ensure an indy majority at the next holyrood election. we need to ensure that a unionist majority is not in control of holyrood for the 1st term of an indy scotland. that way ensures that when a yes vote in indyref2 kills the union, it stays dead.
one thing at a time tho’ a yes vote 1st
Exactly, Stu.
We don’t need no democracy: We prefer the fear of it
You never hear politicians in the Republic of Ireland shouting and campaigning *No to a twelfth referendum* they just had another one and they rather liked it
Breeks says:
The problem I have with this ‘wait for Brexit clarity’ approach is – exactly what should become clear?
If the hard Brexiteers get their way, or the slightly softer ones screw up, then the UK will leave in March and the disaster will be crystal clear! Presumably we will get some warning that this scenario is coming. Fair enough. THEN we all know where we stand.
However, the Tories have become professional time wasters and there is no more clarity now than two years ago. TMay might well fudge her way through the Divorce Treaty and into a Transit of 21months. She will have to keep NI in the single market as a backstop beyond this and could try to achieve the same for the whole UK to keep the DUP support.
Brexit clarity could easily be 3+ years away!
IMO IndyRef2 timing should not be tied to Brexit developments alone. Brexit is merely a symptom of wider disease.
Scotland voted to remain in the EU:
But the Scottish Tories at Westminster are refusing to represent the views and votes of their constituents or their country (Scotland) by upholding their party’s position in England therefore representing constituents in a country they weren’t elected to represent
What kind of democracy is that
Divide and conquer really shouldn’t work in Scotland due to the Clan system and the ready adoption of it by most of Scotland.
Tartan and assigning patterns to new Scots and old helps.
Point is Bonnie Prince Charlie and other great losses are what we’re encouraged to celebrate/commiserate . Alongside Wallace and Mary Queen of Scots.
All romantic defeats but little mention made of there being Scots on both sides. The latter should really only be a footnote in our history. Exiled ex-Queen runs to cousin and plots to overthrow her and possibly conquer Scotland and depose her own son. Maybe not as much of the Scots on both sides.
Thing is when the shit hits the fan the clans gather until the crisis is over. We act as one but become individual again.
Something that makes the rejection of multiculturalism and insistence of a solitary “britishness” truly foreign to us.
Of course, the MSM and other cohorts would hammer a Yes movement that didn’t come up with solutions and policies that addressed the concerns of voters and business.
I’m not sure how wise it would be to say “we will address those issues after we have achieved independence…”
I like the growth commission report because it answers these more immediate questions without pandering to the usual political views and dogma of the left.
I also think we should ditch the romanticism. It’s mostly embarrassing. When I hear people talk about how great Scotland and its people are, I think of the sectarian problems we have and other stuff and think what a pile of crap.
Scotland should aspire to be a normal country, not an exceptional one. We have a long way to go before we can be exceptional. Normal is fine, like Norway, Belgium, and a pile of others that do very well in the world.
Fear no EVEL…we’ll have our own laws thanks!
My granddaughter visited us Saturday knew all about the FM speech bursting with enthusiasm can’t wait to vote and her pals too. She’s on the ball. 🙂
Dr Jim says
Your view, and mine, is that MPs should put the will of their constituents first. Also, we consider “their country” to be Scotland.
I hae ma doots that those Tories see it that way. From what I can make out they are all Greater Englanders, not even Unionists. And I think tomorrow in WM we will see how almost all Tories put their party and government first, all else second.
The issue really is, why did Scots vote them in? Yes, they rallied the BritNat vote, but that isn’t the whole story. They won by pretending to be something other than what they are, and the media was complicit in this.
The reality is, they are up to their oxters in London Tory policies and Greater English Nationalism.
The pretence is, they are somehow they are dissociated from this and ‘Scottish’.
galamcennalath says:
11 June, 2018 at 10:08 am
The problem I have with this ‘wait for Brexit clarity’ approach is – exactly what should become clear?
Yes. And furthermore, why are so many issues apparently pivotal on it becoming clear?
Shrodingers Cat @ 9.46
Well, I’d care about a Vow that was made and not kept!
Why be like them and in the process give those who will try to reverse the vote ammunition?
If we are trying to give Freedom a Country then we should start by giving Truth a Home!
But yes (sigh) their faces would be a site to see…almost worth it…but only almost!
Brexit clarity will consist of Westminster having to commit to a negotiated settlement with the EU which will be a little harder to ignore than the “Vow”.
It’ll also show how far down the river they’re prepared to sell Scotland in particular but the UK in general for their own interests.
Westminster might avoid the clamour for a referendum on any deal given rejecting it doesn’t abort Brexit but simply defaults to a hard Brexit. Surely any unionist politicians from Scotland would back indyref2 if it allowed Scotland to reject a bad deal or no deal and negotiate one more aligned t o it?
It may also show how unwilling Westminster is to negotiate or compromise rather than demand and storm off in a hissy fit when they don’t get their own way.
Orri
re ‘celebrating’ defeats… that’s why they put the Armed Forces celebration in Stirling on the 700th Anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn – we’ll show them in two weeks tho..
They can’t bear to see us celebrate winning, just think back to the winter olympics and the Clare Balding incident about Team GB and why so many ‘down south’ dislike Andy Murray, they must be hating the cricket news this morning and do you remember a few months ago when we beat them at rugby and won the Calcutta Cup – it was the briefest EVER reportage of that event, gone from the newspapers pages within 24 hours.
Aye, they dinnae like it ‘up them’
Dr Jim @ 9.05am
re England declaring war on Scotland and France in 1522 –
…don’t forget folks, you can listen to a dramatisation of ‘our’ next ‘Civil War’ between Scotland and England on BBC R4 every afternoon this week.
Project Fear has just gone up a gear!
Who allowed that programme idea through or was it an order from MI5?
Peter A Bell:
Perhaps worse, however, was the disregard – dare I say, disdain – for the Yes movement. In recent weeks there have been massively significant events which have shown how the yes movement is growing, maturing and becoming more active. The marches in Glasgow and Dumfries, as well as The Gathering in Stirling, are rightly regarded by the wider independence movement as landmark events with great import for the independence cause. People are bound to be perplexed and offended that Nicola Sturgeon chose to ignore them.
It grieves me to say it, but Nicola has made a grave error of judgement. Doubtless, some will say that that she was ill-served by her advisers and speech writer. There is some merit in this argument. I can’t be the only one who cringed at references to “the NHS” rather than ‘NHS Scotland’. But, as Party Leader and First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon is ultimately responsible. The Scottish buck stops with her.
Listening to Nicola Sturgeon’s remarks about the referendum I got a sense of something bordering on complacency. In her failure to give to much as a hat-tip to the Yes movement, for the first time ever I got a disturbingly distinct impression of a political leader detached from the base of that movement.
link to peterabell.blog
Orri says:
11 June, 2018 at 11:31 am
Brexit clarity will consist of Westminster having to commit to a negotiated settlement with the EU which will be a little harder to ignore than the “Vow”.
Compelling Scotland to leave the EU against the unequivocal sovereign mandate to remain is nothing less than Constitutional subjugation. You accept it, or you don’t.
Waiting forever to know the details of Brexit implies there might be a version of Brexit that is somehow acceptable. For my part, I can save you your prevarication, NO manifestation of Brexit will be acceptable to me, because acceptance of Brexit is acceptance of subjugation and an unconstitutional failure to respect Scottish Sovereignty.
Red lines don’t come any clearer.
I see on Facebook that Misreporting Scotland’s viewing figures have dropped to about 200,000. If that is the case and with the high probability that those that read newspapers also watch TV then the pish that is peddled as news by MSM is seen by about 5% to 10% of the population.
This is a remarkable state of affairs. We need to pwn the interwebs for Indyref2 🙂
If every country in the world has it’s share of racist head case nut jobs and the percentage of which is a conservative 10% for every country then England has more of these lunatics (5.5million) voting on stuff than the whole population of Scotland so Independence for Scotland is a much more sensible proposition to more quickly and easily clear up the 500.000 or so idiots we’re stuck with
Outvoted by nutters who don’t even live here doesn’t seem sensible at all, why would anybody want that
@wull2 says: 11 June, 2018 at 8:45 am:
“Can some of our professional Camera and Sound people give some basic tips to our budding broadcasters.”
While I’m not a professional video maker/editor I have been making films & videos ever since I was just out of my early teens.
I would never presume to tell anyone how to do video/film production as new ideas come along frequently but might I suggest you could do well just by telling them what you find wrong with their productions?
Keep in mind they have not got the facilities & equipment available to the likes of the BBC/STV including studios. They are also operating in a rather challenging environment.
Their set piece videos are really good but attempting to cover massive marches spread out over miles,and all that entails, and doing so live, is a rather difficult task at any time.
To a certain extent I agree with Peter Bell’s latest post.
IMO the SNP are very bad at promoting Independence. They are absolutely terrible at TV interviews, they struggle to get the message across.
They are just as bad at rebuttals. How many times have you listened to an SNP MP/MSP stutter and stammer their way through an interview and you end up screaming at the telly saying “why didn’t you say this or that”.
And during IndyRef1 when BBC Scotland was in full anti-independence mode and broadcasting lie after lie, the SNP where nowhere to be seen to fight our corner. It was so frustrating.
My point being that the SNP need to stop being so nice and so honest.
The BritNats win the argument day after day because of their blatant twisting of the facts. The SNP should learn a few tricks from them.
Look at the damp squib the Growth Report was. It was too negative and down beat. Just another example of a missed trick by the SNP.
We need a firebrand mouthpiece coming from within the Scottish Government. And the sad thing is , I don’t know who it will be.
STOP BEING SO NICE NICOLA.
galamcennalath@10:35
You’re right about the Scottish Tory MPs being Greater England nationalists and not unionists. Unionists at least have a belief in Scotland as a country, however much they might ignore or be in denial about the gross inequality of the union.
Mundell the Secretary of State for Grimsby is Exhibit A in the case against the Scots Tories being real Scots.
They wish to finish Scotland politically and culturally, and as a means to that end are willing to ruin Scotland economically also.
Indy2@11.45
I must say when I read this on Peter A Bell,s twitter feed yesterday, I was feeling the same. For the first time since Nicola became FM, I was disappointed in her speech.
Nicola did say, however, that the grassroots need to take control of the Indy movement. I think that they are and that the SNP will take it on board.
The SNP are the only party in Scotland that can get us our Independence but we can and should criticise them when we disagree with them.
I’ve voted for Scottish Independence for 54 years and joined the SNP 42 years ago.
I don’t always agree with them about everything but that’s healthy!
Orri says:
Which settlement, though? There are two.
Firstly the Divorce Treaty, which is pretty much known right now. The UK could easily sign up to that. That guarantees a 21month of Transition. Nothing obvious will change. It will be sold to the public as a ‘necessary deal’ and presented as ‘giving away little’.
That would offer little more clarity.
They could of course storm off in a “storm off in a hissy fit” before March, then we are into different territory. I think they will fudge their way to getting a Divorce Treaty.
Secondly, there is the future relationship with the EU. This is the bit Scotland/SG needs clarity on, if Brexit is to be the litmus test for IndyRef2. It could be single market membership, or it could be a basic trade deal on goods only, or anything in between.
In the short term, TMay will continue to issue woolly words saying they want all sorts of benefits and cooperation, contradicted by red lines. The EU will not be impressed, but will leave debate to the negotiations several years away.
So, no imminent clarity here either.
And, they could always “storm off in a hissy fit” again!
In five years time all will certainly have become clear, hissy fits aside, then it would be sooner.
Truth is, if everything is left to hinge on Brexit, I think the best option for Scotland (and NI) would be a hissy fit and walk away.