Trigger happy
Tonight’s poll data from Survation is really quite remarkable.
We can’t wait to hear what “Pension Pete” Wishart makes of it.
Because what it suggests is that just about ALL of the SNP’s voters want this May’s election to be a straightforward plebiscite of the type called for by this site last October.
We don’t have the full data tables as yet, but it seems a very safe bet that most of the 55% who answered yes to a very wordy but still fairly clear question are the same people as the 51% in the same poll who said they’d vote Yes in a new referendum, and the 48% who said they’d be voting SNP in the election.
The UK Government has stated that it will seek to prevent a Scottish independence referendum taking place for several decades, regardless of whether Scottish voters elect a Scottish Government committed to holding a referendum.
In view of this stance, do you think pro-independence parties, such as the SNP and the Scottish Greens, should or should not include an outright independence pledge in their manifestos for this year’s scheduled Scottish Parliament election, to give people the opportunity to vote for or against independence?
Should: 45%
Should not: 36%
Excluding don’t-know responses:
Should: 55%
Should not: 45%
So despite Wishart’s insistence that only a tiny handful of “demagogue bloggers” want to go straight to Plan B now, it seems he’s wildly out of step with almost all of his own voters, who can clearly see as well as everyone else with an IQ even slightly bigger than their shoe size can that Plan A is absolutely dead in the water.
The current SNP administration, blind drunk on hubris from 14 years of power and the stratospheric poll ratings brought about by their total monopoly of the Yes vote and the stupendous uselessness of the opposition, has lost touch with its own members and supporters in all sorts of ways in recent years, from wildly unpopular policies like GRA reform and the hate crime bill to an incredibly entitled and dismissive attitude towards any sort of scrutiny or transparency, and its abysmal treatment of its former leader.
It’s now about to go into a crucial election advocating a policy that none of its voters believe in, which the party membership hasn’t been allowed to debate at conference, and will kick the independence can down the road for at least another five years.
It’s not a healthy state of affairs, readers. Something’s got to give.
That’s interesting; some quick polling work going on there.
I never thought I’d give credit to Monica Lennon, but well done her for telling Douglas Ross to get tae.
“Something’s got to give” – it really has to doesn’t it?
Looks as though the voters know what they want, how long will it take for the politicians to take heed?
Well, SNP won’t get my vote, that is for sure, only a sharp shock will deliver the message and I think the loss of hundreds of thousands of votes will be the wake up call the SNP will need.
We could do great things if we had the balls
Sadly resigned my SNP membership last year. An awful decision – been a member since the 60s. But until the party realise we want real action on Independence – strong action!! I won’t give them my second vote! We need another party to ‘hold their feet to the fire’ as Alex would say!
Currently the ISP are the only indy party making this a core message for the election in May.
Must be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth in the yoonstream and @ SNP HQ.
Good! 🙂
Would a positive result in the Martin Keatings case leave the SNP with no option but to hold a plebiscite or give a fixed date for a referendum do you think?
Some details from the website of he-who-commissioned-the-poll:
I emailed Keith Brown stating I would find it difficult to vote SNP in May unless it was a plebiscite vote for independence
Here’s his answer
Yup, no answer at all
I have also emailed my MSP, Jeane Freeman saying the same, do you want to see her response ?
Yup, same as Keith’s
As Jeane isn’t standing in May, e have a new candidate who will shortly be getting an email. I’ll let you all know
They’ll get my vote, only if the vote is a plebiscite. I’m not falling for any more manifesto promises.
Oo-er 🙂
Well done the general public on most of you having excellent taste in voting options. It doesn’t really take that much consideration to realise that a plebiscite election is a far better alternative to the referendum, it’s just about being informed that it is an option mostly, I reckon.
Yes yes, there is still the teensy problem of the SNP having no intention of: carrying it out, listening to popular opinion, caring if they are leaking members and funds like an emptying bath, or making the effort. Slightly awkward.
But a poll clearly showing this is a favourite – any party would be mad to ignore it – the SNP wouldn’t even have to find the woven missing ring fenced funds for an extra campaign, they’d just have normal election expenditure – and I bet a ton of people would rejoin if there was this kind of positive move. Are the politicians still in the real world enough to realise this and stop propping up the soon-to-be failed leadership? Hm, maybe not. It’s going to have to be done the hard way I guess.
I think at this point we have to give them the benefit of the doubt till after the election.
If you want independence there’s no chance of any movement at all without an indy majority in May. That’s the only show in town right now.
So with that in mind I can’t fuckin wait to go out and vote the shit out of the SNP. And I’m incredibly sympathetic to every criticism leveled at them in this article.
What happens after that is for after, right now everyone should be uniting behind that.
The ‘something that’s got to give’ has to be the SNP leadership. We have a small window of opportunity in an election that’s only 107 days away. They are about to waste our best possible chance to see an independent Scotland by going cap in hand to Boris and asking the same question again and again. One that even Theresa May stuck the middle finger up to. It’s not just stupid, it’s embarrassing.
We’re going in the wrong direction, time to change the pilot to one that knows where they’re going.
I have massive feet (to the level it’s hard to buy shoes) and also now live in Spain which makes a. It even harder to buy shoes and b. My shoe size a significantly higher number.
And yet even by these metrics an IQ 1 higher than my shoe size grasps the truth about this.
SNP are 2 parties. The holyrood lot consumed by (LG) t(b) qiarzpfhspa issues and the Westminster lot who are altogether too comfortable and too pension dependent.
I’m very much of the opinion Sean Connery knew what he was saying re independence now
Curious as to the folks who state that they are not going to vote SNP – who are they going to vote for (out of the many awesome options available), or is this some kind of ‘none of the above’ silent protest that they are engaging in?
Honestly curious.
Excellent post Stuart .
Immovable (we’ll see ) object v irresistible force ( definitely )
@Garrion,
Without leadership changes and change of tack on plebiscite I will cance! my constituency vote. I will vote ISP on the list
Is it a possibility that Sturgeon will opt to go for a plebiscite in an attempt to save her skin/reputation/legacy if or when the fallout from the inquiries hits home?
If she did that and it resulted in our independence, would all be forgiven… at least on the surface?
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
Updates from the Written Evidence page ,
The Convener replied to Alex Salmond’s letter of 15 January 2021 on 19 January 2021 ,
link to parliament.scot
Following Peter Murrell’s written submission of 13 January 2021, the Convener wrote to invite him to give further evidence to the Committee:
link to parliament.scot
Update from the Correspondence page and this letter has only been published today ,
Sandy Brindley from Rape Crisis Scotland wrote to the Convener on 16 November 2020 ,
link to parliament.scot
A rep from ISP made a good point that it normally takes about 2 years to get a big change idea imbedded into the public’s mind…
That being the case a plebiscite Indy election now, even if lost, might possibly save Scotland some brexit damage, but will certainly play well come the next ge….while the bulk of the brexit reckage is fresh in their minds. there’s a reason they make referendums so incredibly hard to get, not so easy to do that with normal elections.
Derek says:
19 January, 2021 at 10:22 pm.
I never thought I’d give credit to Monica Lennon, but well done her for telling Douglas Ross to get tae.
Considering labour are in cahoots with the Tories in 9 Scottish councils I’d say this is just PR talk.
Boris has emphatically knocked back 2 section 30 requests.
SNP it is your move.
Do something to achieve your stated goal !
Me @ 11.12 pm ,
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
Just a reminder of the previous written evidence from Peter Murrell ,
Written submission received from Peter Murrell following evidence session on 8th December ,
link to parliament.scot
Further written evidence from Peter Murrell following evidence session on 8th December ,
link to parliament.scot
not sure James Kelly’s “outright independence pledge” is as clear cut as the Rev’s:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
and therefore that it’s open to misinterpretation.
Without leadership change, the fine words, and optimistic polling are meaningless.
There is a window of opportunity, a small one. If it’s not taken, it’ll be 2026 before you know it.
Parliamentarians who don’t want The Party to go down with The Murrells’s need to step up now. Not next month, not after the inquiry. Not when Blinky decides what she wants to do.
Now.
Mr C M Howie says:
19 January, 2021 at 10:56 pm
I think at this point we have to give them the benefit of the doubt till after the election.
You’re not going to vote ISP on the list vote?
“I think at this point we have to give them the benefit of the doubt till after the election.”
Oh for fuck’s SAKE. After the election it’s too late. After the election all the options are gone. Wake up and switch your brain on.
I wonder if Labour looked at the Fib Dooms and saw a Political Party getting a case of Superclap and not recovering from it ever. The Moral being sleep with any Tory and catch a dose of dick rotting Clap that cant be cured.
Could this be the end of hold, hold, hold and the unleashing of an unstoppable force.
Would be good timing with events over the coming days, next week will hopefully be interesting.
Always the optimist.
Yes, but we need to give the independence taskforce 5 years to fail to report any meaningful findings other than that a committee/council/taskforce needs to be set up just before the 2026 election.
MaggieC
Thanks for the links – Linda Fabiani’s letter to Alex Salmnod is a bit more polite this time at least. Murrell is a waste of space I reckon – we can’t believe anything he says. Noted that the Scottish government is playing the victim card, yet again, to try and suppress the investigation (by proxy in the r— crisis letter).
The whole thing needs a judge-led inquiry, whatever happens – hopefully that will form part of the conclusion by the committee, after they call for all perpetrators to be suspended of fired. If Nicola Sturgeon is too dim-witted to know it’s time to go, we might need to wait for the James Hamilton inquiry results to get rid of her though.
@Liz says:
19 January, 2021 at 11:18 pm
Considering labour are in cahoots with the Tories in 9 Scottish councils I’d say this is just PR talk.
Maybe I was just being unrealistically optimistic, then!
…gros soupir….
Loved a lot JC’s letter to the Irish Times, in response to London syndicated Fintan of the short and selective memories.
I don’t agree.
A plebiscite election is nonsense, and frankly Stuart you are a lot smarter than that.
Its wishful thinking borne of frustration.
We have to win another majority, unfortunately apply for another s30 to have it rejected again, because ultimately what we have to do is build an unassailable case to present to the EU to say this is the will of the people and it is being thwarted.
A consultative referendum is a billion times better an idea, but still not guaranteed to work.
Will the SNP get a hardon though?
Sturgeon won’t allow such a poll. She has gifted Westminster our sovereignty.
This election is a political opportunity the party of independence should be exploiting.
Maybe the Yes movement needs to remind her of Kenyon Wright’s words:
“What if that other voice we all know so well responds by saying, ‘We say no, and we are the state’? Well we say yes, and we are the people.”
Mr C M Howie says:
19 January, 2021 at 10:56 pm
“I think at this point we have to give them the benefit of the doubt till after the election.”
It’s too late after the election. Now or 2026. That’s the choice.
Mr C M Howie
I think you’re talking the piss. That’s being nice. Have you no read this website for past few years. How many fucking ‘mandates’ do you want is the cry.
Now sod aff back to yoonsville.
That’s not true, that’s just what Angus MacNeil says on Twitter.
We could easily win a majority in May, apply for s30, have it rejected, then hold a consultative referendum in September.
There are some problems with that such as unionist councils not playing ball and unionists boycotting it.
But its infinitely preferable to a plebiscite election which nobody will recognise.
And if we could get 2.2m votes for independence in a consultative referendum that would represent more than half the electorate and more than the No camp got in 2014.
Then you really could say this is the will of the people.
None of this is true with a plebiscite election which is absolute nonsense. I don’t even have the vocabulary to state how ridiculous it is.
MacNeil is selling people false hope and its going to create a lot of anger when the SNP can’t deliver on what is clearly a pipe dream.
I mean do you really think the British government is going to just go ‘ach alright then take the couple of trillion worth of oil and tell the subs to head south’ cause we pretend that an election is a referendum?
They would close our parliament immediately. Its nonsense.
Tactically adopting a plebiscite or even the real threat of it gives us some leverage.
The Unionists may panic and commit to a S30 before May to kick the can down the road. It will cause them a real problem.
Right now they have no problem denying the S30 and we have no leverage.
@ C M Howie
What the fuck does the EU have to do with it?
Nobody will recognise?? Do you know how many nations achieved independence using elections?
I think you are talking utter pish.
@Iain More says:
19 January, 2021 at 11:37 pm
“Will the SNP get a hardon though?”
Only if self-identifying…
First you say a plebiscite election will be ignored then you say a consultative ref wont be!?
“There are some problems with that such as unionist councils not playing ball and unionists boycotting it.”
Yeah, just a couple of minor issues like we wouldn’t actually physically be able to do it and nobody would vote in it. Nothing serious.
Stop trolling. My patience is wearing thin.
Mr Howie – 77th brigade ?
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You are at least polite. Folk are utterly sick of begging westmonster. SNP MSPs are fast getting the message that the folk who do the door-knocking and leaflet-delivering are no longer willing to put up with endless unused mandates. I predict a sharp drop in SNP constituency votes if May is not a plebiscite.
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There will a huge drop in second votes no matter what happens. The ISP will benefit.
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The genderwoowoo are leaving the party. Good Riddance. All we need is humza yusuf to drop his idiotic stasi bill and we might be back on some kind of track.
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Peter Murrell should immediately be suspended by the NEC. He is toxic and hopefully toast. Evans and McKinnon should be reported to police Scotland ( evans, mcKinnon and the police are under pressure for their enormous bias in the Salmond stitch-up).
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I think the FM is holed below the water-line. And she will never stand up to liar johnston. The sooner she goes the better.
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Is there time for a new leader, a clean out and a plebiscite ? What’s the alternative ? And that is why there is enough time.
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I expect MSPs to start speaking out before Friday.
I’m sorry but you’re wrong. That’s just the way it is.
We would be able to do it and there would be no problem with people voting in it. We’re talking about September.
This is all a waste of time anyway. A plebiscite election won’t happen as its delusional pish.
So we’ll have to get our majority then see what transpires after that.
I mean you don’t the fact not a single country on earth would recognise a plebiscite election is a slight problem?
How would you propose getting round that?
What does Alex think….or Joanna?
For me, first things first and that is to sweep the Sisters-Grotesque, Sturgeon and Evans and that crooked bastard Wolffe from Holyrood and Victoria Quay.
Once that’s done and a credible and balanced leadership is moving the party in a direction that the majority go along with, the rest becomes much easier.
CM Howie, please tell me how many countries in history have gained Independence after a referendum granted by the *controlling government ?
In case you dont know, its zero, nada, fuck all.
*controlling government, its late Im tired and cant think of what else to call the cretins
“Mr C M Howie says:
19 January, 2021 at 11:53 pm
I mean do you really think the British government is going to just go ‘ach alright then take the couple of trillion worth of oil and tell the subs to head south’ cause we pretend that an election is a referendum?
They would close our parliament immediately. Its nonsense.”
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.
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That is your problem. You actually CARE what westmonster does. Plebiscite and then immediate recognition from the USA and the EU . Job done.
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Do not try to fool me with the USA and the EU wont recognize an independent Scotland. Most sane people loathe liar johnstone and his cabal of shape-shifting morons.
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Biden, Harris, Merkel, Macron et al have good reason to loathe liar Johnston more than that. And economic reasons to welcome an independent Scotland.
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If we don’t try we will never succeed.
How many countries have successfully won independence from a permanent UNSC member with a plebiscite election? None ever.
No UN membership.
The EU have been very clear all along they have no problem with Scottish independence as long as its legal and constitutional. A plebiscite election is not.
So no EU membership.
WM would not recognise.
So where does that leave you?
-CM Howie-
On the generous assumption you are in good faith-
You say no other countries will recognise a plebiscite election, although I can’t see why that would be. Surely there is more chance of their recognising a plebiscite election than there is of their recognising NOTHING which is the other option.
Perhaps you think “Oor Nicola” has some kind of cunning plan up her sleeve? Maybe you could tell us what you think that might be?
Its not me, the world cares what WN does and what the UN does and what the EU does.
America doesn’t give the slightest fuck about us. We are a tiny insignificant country to them.
All they care about is the nuclear deterrent. So when push comes to shove they will not come down on our side.
Like it or not the UK is the USA’s number one strategic ally. That’s just the way it is.
So no EU membership, no UN membership, no recognition from London and no recognition from the USA.
Its a complete non-starter.
Mr C Howies advice? Wait,wait, then wait some more.
After that wait again. Are you a waiter perchance?
Sometimes a nice neat agreed approach to independence arises but only when the imperial power wants to save some cash & headache. I think this path is now unlikely in Scotland’s case.
Mostly independence occurs because the local populace decides its had enough, its time has come & grabs a chance. The exact process is only known as it unfolds, and then everyone in retrospect adds yet another precedent to the big book of ‘How Things Are Done’.
Is that where we are ? I don’t know, but one thing is for sure, you don’t become independent by running around asking for recognition. You press on, get it done & face down the opposition. Thats exercising sovereign will.
CM Howie
If things continue as they stand, you may think your voting for independence in May but what you are actually voting for is to legitimise criminality, extremist legislation, and a crackdown on dissent.
If you’re lucky, you might see an “Independence Czar” in 2025 in return for your misplaced faith
So that confirms it then, the SNP leadership do not speak for, nor represent, the people who elected them.
Indeed Stuart, something’s got to give – let’s just hope it’s wrong that gives way for right, corruption than gives way for justice, and the Murrells who give way for an independent Scotland.
@Mr C M Howie,
Vietnam is a member of the UNSC, now recognised by America.
Chile is now a member of the Un . They deposed Pinochet in a plebiscite.
Stephen P @ 11.53
Exactly Stephen, that’s the most unexplainable part of this “section 30 only ” nonsense.
How and why would any politician not only not see the benifit of such a bluff, but also not be prepared to use any attempt to call that bluff to their own advantage?
Any position that Westminster took has advantages to the Scottish efforts to end this accursed Union.
We in the Yes movement have examined and found the flaws in all of them.
E.G.
To try to place term and conditions on the vote especially that much anticipated third question!
To attempt super majorities!
To frighten our pensioners again ..
For this and much much more we’ve all been preparing for for years, they’ll not surprise us this time.
No one involved in the Yes campaign is ever going to wait around on the MSM giving us a fair hearing ever again .
No one is going to hold out for a purdah period to curb the false claims anymore.
Why the SNP leaders don’t know this is baffling.
They clearly don’t trust us or believe us when we say we’ve got this.
Yet we shocked them all in 2014 with how we mobilised and I’d say they ain’t seen nothing yet!
We’re good to go and have been for quite some time now.
If politics is the art of the possible……then they need to wake up and go with this entirely possible independence for our country, this year, this vote….just like those polls are telling them we want..
Very indicative that pistol Pete is ignoring this like the plague !!.
Bob
The UK is a permanent UNSC member. Meaning it gets a veto on any membership application.
How do you think it would work out asking the UK to recognise our UN membership application after a plebiscite election? Can you see that working out?
The Soviet Union. Now there a perfect example even without a plebiscite. The constituent parts just dissolved it by themselves. I think Russia has a permanent seat at the UKSC. No ?
@Mr Howie,
You just don’t get it …do you. Give sturgeon another five years and she will empowered and tell us all to fuck off. This is why it must be a plebicite in May…We don’t trust her.
Answer my question and I’ll answer yours. The UK would have a veto on our UN membership application? What do you think would happen?
@ paron my butterfingers UNSC not UKSC.
Yeah that’s right the woman who has been fighting for independence for forty years would just ‘tell us all to fuck off’.
You don’t think maybe because she’s the one who actually has to make these decisions she can’t just dream independence up on a wish and a prayer and pretend its an easy thing that can be achieved four months from now cause you want it to be?
Spain has said they would veto our EU application if we attempted to secede unconstitutionally. A plebiscite election is unconstitutional. So what do you think would happen there?
Its okay I am making typos all over the place. Don’t think my eyesight is what it used to be.
@Mr CM Howie,
Veto ? So what? Name me one former member of the Soviet Union who is not a member of the UN.
Politcs politics. You give up before you even try.
“We would be able to do it and there would be no problem with people voting in it. We’re talking about September.”
Don’t be stupid. The SNP don’t control a single council. Not one polling station would be open. Goodbye.
@{Mr Howie,
Yeah that’s right the woman who has been fighting for independence for forty years would just ‘tell us all to fuck off’.
You don’t think maybe because she’s the one who actually has to make these decisions she can’t just dream independence up on a wish and a prayer and pretend its an easy thing that can be achieved four months from now cause you want it to be?
I beg to differ.All the evidence indicates sturgeon is anti independent. She has done nothing to support it, in fact she has opposed it at every opportunity.
Howie
The UK won’t exist – technically it hasn’t since the Irish Free State was created.
Scotland didn’t join the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707… it together with England created it!
You want a model for the split? Czechoslovakia.
The Republic of Slovakia didn’t leave Czechoslovakia. How could it? Nor did the Czech Republic leave Czechoslovakia.
When the Kingdom of Scotland takes to the international stage you’ll have it together with the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland.
The UK will be consigned to the history books.
If identified as the successor state for the simple fact of having nuclear warheads able to be attached to American missiles means the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland keep a seat at the Security Council, who gives a toss.
If the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland want to make life difficult for the Kingdom of Scotland, let them…
They can take their boomers and park them all in King’s Bay TFN. Fish, oil, hydro and wind, we’ll make good use of to our own benefit.
Don’t imagine many Kosovans are awake tonight because their country isn’t universally recognised.
As for your wheesht for Indy approach to May’s election – where have you been recently?
You want to endorse criminal behaviour and a Woke agenda then go ahead and place your X where you see fit. You’ll be no closer to Independence with the current shower of troughers and carpetbaggers either way.
As for my vote? They can go whistle!
Mr C M Howie,
How could the UK veto our UN membership? The UK wouldn’t exist after Scottish independence.
Excellent news, Rev. Thank you for sharing James Kelly’s poll results.
Howie
Are you seriously suggesting Westminster give us an excuse to close that border and put out the lights…
They are not that stupid Howie and above a certain level there are no borders any way.
It’s all about keeping the voters Tribal….do you not know that ?
They’ll trade and we’ll trade too….and as for all those international organisations you mentioned,
… They and We will cooperate …. Westminster might hate not speaking for the whole island anymore but they will want us to do that as a speaking as one voice thing.
All those other friendly countries won’t want Westminster pushing us towards making allies with the wrong sort … and Westminster knows fine well if the top of this island did that then it cancels out the strength of the bottom half of this islands position.
You watch Howie….. Westminster will play ball internationally they have no real choice and neither do we… it’s a whole other conversation from who runs Scotland..
Mr C M Howie says:
20 January, 2021 at 12:26 am
“Its not me, the world cares what WN does and what the UN does and what the EU does.
America doesn’t give the slightest fuck about us. We are a tiny insignificant country to them.
All they care about is the nuclear deterrent. So when push comes to shove they will not come down on our side.
Like it or not the UK is the USA’s number one strategic ally. That’s just the way it is.
So no EU membership, no UN membership, no recognition from London and no recognition from the USA.
Its a complete non-starter.”
===========================================================
You are operating under the illusion that Biden likes the feckin English/ Brits Mr Yoon. He doesn’t. They are shitting themselves that Biden won.
I have also written to Keith Brown demanding a Plebiscite Election. It’s time for all SNP members/voters to flood his e mail inbox with similar demands.
Right so none of the important other countries will, according to CM Howie, recognise an independent Scotland.
Now, I certainly don’t think there’s any use putting all our faith in a benevolent “international community”, although that’s not quite the same thing. So let’s just assume for the sake of argument that CM Howie is right.
Well, in that case, game’s a bogey, innit? If Scottish independence is never going to be accepted by other countries, then it’s never happening. So in that situation it’s a bit bloody pointless to vote for Nicola Sturgeon to get us independence! And when we look at her woeful, frightening record and plans for the future, there’s not much cause for anyone to vote for her.
They’re always like this. Their arguments always go in circles and always rely on hazy wishful thinking.
A Bruce @ 2.57
Well done , a much better use of our time than buying what Howie’s selling 🙂
Ye see Howie .. we got THAT one too..
I would add for the benefit of Mr Howie that Scotland is a Nation which has just suffered one act of gross colonial subjugation and injustice, and now has a UK Government wilful in its intention to prevent Scotland holding a democratic referendum which is itself, yet another gross act of colonial subjugation and injustice. Their ignoble and dishonourable intentions could not be any clearer or unambiguous.
The International Community will have to recognise Scotland if they aren’t given any choice in the matter. If a Scottish Election is run as a plebiscite, a majority which rejects the Union demolishes Westminster’s phoney Convention of Parliamentary Sovereignty, because that Convention turns to dust once the Union becomes demonstrably non-consensual arrangement.
Once the Treaty of Union is formally resiled, which doesn’t even need a democratic majority if the numerous breaches and acts of colonial subjugation are deemed to represent a formal and irremediable breach of the said Treaty, and the UK will have ceased to exist and the breached Treaty cannot thereafter be resurrected.
The greatest threat to Scotland adopting this strategy isn’t fear of International recognition nor any question of illegality. Westminster has shown it’s hand and it’s anti democratic colonial intentions. The greatest risk for Scotland lies in having an indecisive, mealy mouthed Scottish Government which doesn’t have any backbone or firm resolve, and is all too ready and willing to capitulate to Westminster and forfeit Scotland’s Constitutional rights. Sadly, that is precisely the sad poor excuse for a government we do have.
We have between now and May to forge a worthy Scottish Government fit for purpose, or else find a way to circumvent their gutless and unconstitutional complicity with Westminster’s unlawful colonial subjugation and exploitation. It is time the people of Scotland asserted their sovereign prerogative, and Holyrood will obey the will of it’s sovereign people or be driven out as our enemy and a subverter of their rights and ours.
People ask who will you vote for if not the SNP. If the May Election is a plebiscite, it isn’t a matter of who you are voting for, but what you are voting for.
First time in ages I have actually read through most of the posts here, as for Mr Howie, why is anyone even answering such a load of utter bunkum, sorry Mr Howie I don’t usually get personal but if your legit then your like the dear old ostrich, head in the sand and hope for the best.
I on the other hand deal with actions not promises that something will happen tomorrow, well all the tomorrows have come and gone, in fact the last tomorrow left some time ago, I waved it goodbye as did many others
50 years voting SNP, 50 years waiting and it all went down the pan when Alex dcided to step down.
Will I give the SNP my vote if the Dilly Dolly and her Dippy Dalliers are still on the stage.
Well lets put it this way, there is more chance of me and the queen of england eloping to gretna green and getting stoned under the anvil and Boris Johnstone being our best man
Come to think of it, that sounds like not a bad we do.
Now, where did I put lizzie’s number, give her a wee ring, see if she fancies coming up the road for a birl and a swally
And yet as we see here the Sturgeon apologists and sycophants will NOT listen to reason or good ideas , niclas got this she has a cunning plan but it’s secret and can’t be divulged in case the yoonies block it , yada, yada,yada , nae wonder Sturgeon feels unassailable when a large percentage of Scots cannot think for themselves and think the sainted one wants independence
I am sick of people using the term seceding we are NOT a part of england we are a COUNTRY in an equal partnership within a union formed by a treaty , we are NOT leaving a parent state, we are dissolving a partnership that hasn’t worked for Scotland for hundreds of years , we would have done it sooner but we were governed by unionist politicians whose interests were only in themselves and currying favour with their english bosses
@ Molly’s mum and A Bruce I also emailed Keith Brown AND Nicola Sturgeon intimating that my vote was conditional on a plebicite election still no answer
Dear Mr Brown
I am writing to you today not as a constituent but in your capacity of Deputy Leader of the SNP SG , I am not a member of the SNP but my Family and I have voted for SNP candidates for the past 20 years in all local and national elections , it is my understanding that you are in charge of bringing the manifesto together to present to the leadership for consideration . Like others I am appalled at the forced removal of Scotland from the European Union despite numerous promises uttered loudly and regularly by the leader of WM SNP MP contingent and numerous declarations by Nicola Sturgeon
Like others I am extremely concerned that Nicola Sturgeon’s insistence on the Sect 30 agreement route which has been denied on at least 3 occasions is allowing the WM govt to dictate that Scotland will be held in subservience for the foreseeable future permitting WM to plunder and pillage our resources
It is with this in mind that alongside others unless the 2021 Holyrood election is declared a plebicite election my family and I will regretfully be unable in good conscience to vote for a SNP candidate
I would encourage you to gauge independence supporters feelings on this matter and the responses to aligning our future dependent on a corrupt WM govt sect 30 agreement , I enclose a link to the Barrhead boy website
@ twathater: well said.
I wrote to Keith Brown urging him to act to deal with the various improper events relating to the Fabiani inquiry, the postponement of any action on independence until after the covid economic effects had been dealt with etc etc. I had no reply. I fear he is one of those loyal ex-military people who do what they are told. Pity.
Nevertheless I shall be urging a plebiscite at the National Assembly.
Oh dear, poor ‘Mr C M Howie’, he was doing so well spreading his disinformation and lies about a plebiscite election not being recognised internationally…
…until 12:23am when he forgets his cover identity and writes “So where does that leave you.”
Not ‘us’, but ‘you’.
Lol, you’re busted, ‘Mr Howie’, bye!
.
Well said Breeks.
Please may I add my voice, agreement and vote to your first rate posting that Scotland is a nation quite capable of resiling from a Union that has run its course. We do NOT need to grovel to the mini-Trump wannabe in 10 Downing Street for a Section 30 permission. “Yes sirrreee massserr. Dis is yaw house-jock here.”
On the eve of Joe Biden’s inauguration as the 46th president, America seems to be having a good evening.
That corrupt orange-leather skinned vulture of a president has been lifted off of that country’s shoulders. They appear to be regaining a modicum of collegiate self-respect, it would be nice if we Scots could have some HOPE of that ilk too.
I hope to live long enough to see…
A). Breek’s thesis that Scotland has legal competence to trigger her own plebiscite on whether WE decide to end the Union.
B). The election of a First Minister who believes in Independence.
C). A new First Minister who holds high legal qualification and such iconic experience of, for example, hauling Boris Johnson to Court for lying to the Queen. A First Minister who previously successfully obtained a legal document requiring the U.K. Parliament to be recalled.
D). Someone of that calibre for First Minister would, of course be Johanna Cherry QC.
E). The creation of a healthy, vibrant and successful SECOND Independence List Party in Holyrood.
F). Alex Salmond to lead that second Independence List Party and ensure Stuart Campbell’s earlier dissertation, that there will be a proper pro-indy party coalition in Holyrood.
G). There will be a MAJORITY if/when we have a healthier two pro-Indy party system.
That would do for starters.
P.S. Stu, why do some posters names appear in blue ink and some in black ink at the top left corner of each post? Thanks 😉
The problem that Howie, Wishart, the SNP leadership, and every other S.30 champion fails to take on board is this:
Once our S.30 request has been refused, and we go off cap in hand to the EU and the UN and whoever else, Westminster is not going to be standing aside meek and mute, dutifully awaiting the judgement of the great and the good.
They are going to be standing right beside us, braying at the tops of their voices to any who will listen:
“This is all nonsense. Of course they need a S.30 – and that’s all there is to it. And they know perfectly well that they need a S.30 – why else would they have asked for one in the first place?”
And the argument will be unassailable. Because going begging Westminster’s permission for a S.30 sends two explicit messages: (1) that we need Westminster’s permission, and (2) that Westminster has the right to grant or withhold that permission.
That is why in constitutional terms, asking for a S.30 is the stupidest of all possible approaches. It offers a massive hostage to fortune.
X
Time to start emailing our MSPs and giving them an ultimatum. Plebiscite election promise, or no vote.
I just emailed mine.
Scotspine says:
20 January, 2021 at 4:57 am
Time to start emailing our MSPs and giving them an ultimatum. Plebiscite election promise, or no vote.
I just emailed mine.
Scotspine, how did you word it? Thanks.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
If the snp had rev stu’s imagination the circus and the clown would have went elsewhere!
But she does’nt like parade’s just passing by her.
Get the job signed off SNP! thats why we elect u!
Given that both English unionist parties (Labour and Tory) have clearly and unequivocally stated they will NOT’allow’ a referendum regardless of how Scotland votes, and given this new polling data, WHY is the SNP so damn resistant to even exploring the idea??
Seriously, we have a supposedly pro-indy government, the polling shows a majority for indy, people are virtually screaming for change, and yet Nicola Sturgeon and pension Pete, simply refuse to even discuss anything else. WHY?????
England’s First Minister, Boris De Pfeffle Johnson will continue to refuse a section 30. I mean, any clown can see that. So WHY,WHY,WHY, are the SNP so determined NOT to pursue independence??
People could quite reasonably conclude that the current leadership of the SNP doesn’t actually want independence.
Scotspine at 0457am,
Excellent idea. I think every indy supporter should now do likewise. Either May is a vote on indy, or they do not get a vote. I mean, if elected otherwise, we now know that the SNP will rejoice at their win, then do nothing on indy for another few years. So, we might as well.
Contact your MSP, and Keith Brown (who is writing the manifesto) and make it clear to them. Indy or no votes.
Twathater at 0341am,
This point by twathater, cannot be stated enough. Still their are too many who simply do not understand that Scotland is in a union with England by a bilateral treaty. We are not a part of England, no matter how much unionists try to assert that we are.
Quote from twathater “I am sick of people using the term seceding we are NOT a part of england we are a COUNTRY in an equal partnership within a union formed by a treaty , we are NOT leaving a parent state, we are dissolving a partnership that hasn’t worked for Scotland for hundreds of years , we would have done it sooner but we were governed by unionist politicians whose interests were only in themselves and currying favour with their english bosses”
“ Time to start emailing our MSPs and giving them an ultimatum. Plebiscite election promise, or no vote.”
I emailed my WM MP about plan B. Thankfully he is now supporting it.
Will get on to MSP
There seems to be a ‘fear’ that england won’t abide by Scotland’s decision to leave the union via May election. What will we do then people ask? Well at that point, the U.K. is finished – the United Kingdom can no longer be recognised internationally as a union. It becomes something very different.
I would also listen to the words of Mr Biden very carefully in the coming months.
There has NEVER been a better time to walk away.
Scottidog at 0750am,
Exactly. Too many people say, ‘but what if Westminster won’t agree or recognise the result?’, but that completely misses the point. The treaty will be over and Westminster will have no say in things from that point on. If England thereafter chooses to invade or send troops, it will, as you correctly point out, no longer be a union, but something very different (an illegal agressive military annexation), in the eyes of the world.
Of course the troops scenario would never happen, since such a move would only cement further the hatred of Westminster rule, and demand for independence. Plus, once we have a democratic vote for indy, I think many in England would have no problem with it, and certainly most would NOT support military intervetion.
It seems that some within the SNP cannot seem to think strategically at all.
A peaceful democratic decision to end a treaty is straightforward. This baloney about asking Westminster is tosh. No other country in the world has gained independence by meekly seeking ‘permission’.
I think that the SNP need to get there Holyrood leadership sorted out within the next couple of weeks.
Otherwise, if stories continue to leak-out (and they will) the present leadership will become unelectable to very many Scots.
It seems to me that we have a situation which could go from bad to worse quite quickly.
And, this is without any form of a campaign which would explain monetary policy, pensions etc, etc ( hopefully not Andrew Wilson’s ridiculous attachment to the British pound).
Remember when we started the last campaign we were sitting at 27% in the polls and that went up to 45%, That is a campaign increase of 18%. If only we could get rid of Sturgeon and Murrel, what a difference that would make.
@Bob Costello – I see that Murrell has been called again to the Holyrood Inquiry. He does seem like an obvious idiot to me and so probably to the Inquiry team too.
The Inquiry will be keen to regain the initiative as it has been taken away from them these past few weeks.
I think they will fail to do that. The genie is out of the bottle, as they say.
Since when did referendums (referenda) become the new normal? Ah yes, it was Blair with his focus groups that heavily pushed the idea.
From wikipedia:
Referendums in the United Kingdom are occasionally held at a national, regional or local level. National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and are regulated through the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the ancient principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.
So a referendum is just a pretty please and has a snowball’s chance in Hell of having the effect the waiters and prevaricators of this world want.
A plebiscite election is a door once opened that can never be closed again. If not this May, then it’s the election after that and so on. As long as there is a desire for independence it becomes the new gold standard for any party who wants in the game.
twathater @ 3.53am. Hope you’re not holding your breath waiting for a reply to an email sent to anyone in the SNP. The default position is that they don’t answer; the equivalent of Pete Wishart blocking people on twitter(I’d merely commented on his rudeness to Tim Rideout). Mind you I took that as a compliment!
The reality is that Sturgeon and apparently most of the SNP don’t give hoot what its supporters think and will go on with the S30 and take their fat pay checks for another five years.
@Patsy Miller – That’s the default position of all at Holyrood, Patsy. I agree, the SNP are the worst but the others aren’t a lot better.
Holyrood needs a good shake. As it stands at the moment, they couldn’t govern Scotland in a million years. Some folk need to resign and step aside.
They all pretend to represent different parties and have different views; every now and again they argue. But, underneath it all, they are all the best of chums. That goes for all the staff and SPADS too.
A plebiscite election is absolute fuckin nonsense for the fairies.
Rev Stu himself said a plebiscite election would have to be a single issue election with a one page manifesto with only one clause.
That’s because you can’t decipher what voters are voting for other than a party, so to have a mandate it would have to be single issue.
Then he changed his mind and tacked on at the end ‘and everything else will just stay the same for five years’.
Fucking juvenile nonsense. So no mandate to actually govern the country beyond May.
Nobody on earth would recognise it. The EU wouldn’t as its not constitutional, so no EU membership.
The UK would veto any application for UN membership. So no UN membership.
The USA couldn’t possibly care any less. We are a tiny insignificant country to them. The UK is their number one strategic ally. All they care about is the nuclear deterrent.
So the USA wouldn’t recognise us either.
Obviously London wouldn’t recognise us.
So no EU membership, no UN membership, no recognition from the USA, no recoginition from the UK, and no mandate to govern the country.
Its the stupidest idea in history without a snowball’s chance in hell of working. You are being sold a lie by people who want to live in an echo chamber.
“A plebiscite election is absolute fuckin nonsense for the fairies.
Rev Stu himself said a plebiscite election would have to be a single issue election with a one page manifesto with only one clause.
That’s because you can’t decipher what voters are voting for other than a party, so to have a mandate it would have to be single issue.
Then he changed his mind and tacked on at the end ‘and everything else will just stay the same for five years’.
Fucking juvenile nonsense. So no mandate to actually govern the country beyond May.”
My goodness, what a giant load of horseshite from someone who clearly didn’t bother to read the article properly.
Among other things, it noted the convenient fact that Holyrood elections have two votes, and specified that only the constituency vote would be considered as the “referendum”. The SNP are going to crush that either way so it makes no odds to anything.
That means that people can use the list vote as the effective election. Something like 90-95% of Unionist seats are going to come from the list anyway, so they’ll lose nothing. Yes supporters, meanwhile, can vote SNP, Green, ISP or whatever on the list. If the SNP get no list seats it’ll be because they got so many constituency seats, which is also vastly likely to happen anyway, so they lose nothing either. And it gives other pro-indy parties a chance. There are no losers in the plan and the victorious party will have a clear mandate.
“Nobody on earth would recognise it. The EU wouldn’t as its not constitutional, so no EU membership.”
There is nothing remotely unconstitutional about it. It was the SNP’s policy for nearly 70 years. A party can contest an election on any platform it likes, and any explicit vote of a majority for self-determination complies with Article 1 of the UN Charter.
“The UK would veto any application for UN membership. So no UN membership.”
What UK? The UK would have ceased to exist.
“The USA couldn’t possibly care any less. We are a tiny insignificant country to them. The UK is their number one strategic ally. All they care about is the nuclear deterrent.”
Why do they even care about that? They’ve got plenty of their own nukes. But if you’re right and they do, then it’s overwhelmingly in their interests to broker a peaceful settlement between Scotland and the rUK to prevent Trident being caught up in any sort of conflict. Even without any armed forces of its own, it would be laughably easy for Scotland to effectively disable Trident due to its isolated location.
Joe Biden has made some remarkably strongly-worded statements in favour of Irish independence/reunification so I’m far from convinced he’d be hostile to Scotland.
And finally, of course, even if it only had a 1% chance of working, that’d still be 1% more than Plan A has.
So to sum up, everything you’ve just said is SO stupid it can only be trolling, particularly since your email and IP reveal it’s from someone I just banned for the same thing, so piss off, Mr Howie. Again.
Absolutely right Cptn Yosarian.
The SNP need to get rid of Nicola Sturgeon in the next few weeks. Timing is everything and it is clear that aside of the criminality that clearly sits at the heart of this FMs Government, the FM will become increasingly damaged goods once the election campaign gets underway in earnest.
This will be a media election, more than any other. COVID will see to that. And we know who has MSM media control.
With a huge base of SNP members utterly disenchanted with the current leadership and with the option of the MSM being ready and waiting to commence a campaign to go full ahead to expose a severely damaged Sturgeon, her retention in place becomes a huge liability.
But let us wait and see. My belief is that Sturgeon is going to go.
I wonder if the response to this will be “Lets leave the election till after we deal with Covid, oh and the financial outcome of Brexit…so much going on, you know!”
@Willie – That’s my belief too. The press are also aware of more damaging allegations re Swinney and Sturgeon (nothing to do with AS) which haven’t come to light yet.
I think she is already dead in the water and knows it. If you watch Sophie Ridge from yesterday….Sophie Ridge didn’t believe a word of what Sturgeon was saying to her…..and I didn’t either.
This poll shows that Sturgeon (Gold Standard) is rejected by the Scots and continuing with the S30 is only appealing to the Unionist in Scotland, so lets see is this useless leader changes her mind and decides to go with an election as de facto referendum, but I fell for sure Sturgeon not for turning.
If Sturgeon’s SNP is so keen on a S30 then request another one right now. They already have the mandate. Get this nonsense out of the way for a third time and show it for the dead end that it is. When yet another No is the reply, then state that the election in May is a vote on independence. Do this before February and if Sturgeon is still the leader, the SNP may just avoid a serious backlash at the May Constituancy vote.
Cuphook says:
19 January, 2021 at 11:40 pm
Sturgeon won’t allow such a poll. She has gifted Westminster our sovereignty.
Cuphook, she can’t gift the people’s sovereignty to Westminster. Or to anyone else, for that matter. It doesn’t belong to her, therefore she can’t give it away.
You can’t give away to a third party something that belongs to someone else. If you attempt to do so, that will be a form of misappropriation. To be more blunt about it, theft. You took something that belongs to someone else, which is stealing, and when the third party receives it he is receiving stolen goods.
In fact, if the person to whom you give that so-called ‘gift’ says ‘thank you very much, it’s mine now’, while knowing that what you had given him does not belong to you, then he too is guilty of misappropriation. It is akin to the crime of ‘re-set’. At least, that’s what it used to be called when reported in the newspapers when I was young (though it’s ages since I saw anyone use it in print).
If Nicola Sturgeon gave away our (the people’s) sovereignty, and it doesn’t belong to her, shouldn’t she be reported to Police Scotland (for theft)?! And if she gave it away to Boris Johnson, shouldn’t he be reported to the Metropolitan Police for receiving stolen goods?!
Unless, maybe, our Police forces no longer follow up ‘real crime’. By which I mean criminal acts: things people actually do. I suppose reports of theft or re-set might not interest them much, if they are too busy examining our thoughts instead.
If thinking thoughts is now more criminal than doing deeds, perhaps we have a new definition of freedom. You used to be free to think your thoughts, and even to articulate them, and speak them out. But you were not free to do whatever you like (for instance, stealing). Maybe this has now all been reversed.
In any case, legally speaking, all this stuff is a terrific re-run of something that happened more than 700 years ago. When Edward I humiliated the defeated John Balliol in 1296, he forced him into giving Scotland to the English crown. Edward then claimed that the ‘land of Scotland’ (no longer a kingdom) was now his. His property, that is. He was the owner.
The Scots at first argued that this ‘gift’ – = transfer of ownership of Scotland from John Balliol to Edward of England – was invalid because it had been obtained by force. In fact, very specifically, ‘by force and fear’ – these were the words used. Promises made, or gifts given under duress simply do not count.
A few years later, the Scots got a better argument. The people were sovereign in Scotland. That sovereignty had never belonged to John Balliol. Therefore John Balliol could not give what did not belong to him to a third party, whether Edward I of England, or the English crown or whoever. Scotland wasn’t his to give.
And 700 years later, it isn’t Nicola Sturgeon’s either.
The Scots even added that John Balliol was not their legitimate ruler, because the sovereign people had never chosen him to be such. If Nicola Sturgeon attempts to usurp the people’s sovereignty, she is not our legitimate leader either. She has shown time and again that she thinks she can override what the people want, which suggests she thinks she has been invested with the power to do so. It is time for the people to remind her that such is not the case.
No one made her our sovereign; sovereignty still remains with the people. She needs to be reminded, not by Westminster but by us, of the limits of her power. Usurpation is theft. She has no right to wrest from us, the people, our sovereignty. And no capacity whatsoever to give to anyone else what does not belong to her. And if she did attempt to give what was not hers to Boris Johnson or to Westminster, neither Johnson nor the London parliament nor the Queen herself have the right or the capacity to receive it from her.
To finish, let me just endorse the last part of Cuphook’s comment:
‘Maybe the Yes movement needs to remind her of Kenyon Wright’s words:
“What if that other voice we all know so well responds by saying, ‘We say no, and we are the state’? Well we say yes, and we are the people.”’
Indeed so. And this applies just as much to “the voice we all know so well” (especially if we watch coronavirus briefings on the telly) of Nicola Sturgeon, as it originally did to the voice Kenyon Wright had in mind. And as for the ‘we’ – well, we, the people of Scotland are still alive and well, and very much around. And we are still sovereign here, in our own country.
Let no robbers or usurpers, or thieves or villains of any kind – whether here or furth of here – ever forget it.
@Robert Louis
No there won’t be troops but the WM establishment will be much more underhand. I’d probably expect the manky jaiket militia to be well funded!
There will probably be a further ‘fire sale’ of Scottish assets – basically anything to destroy our wealth. Our own central bank will be essential and the arse will have fallen out of sterling.
Of course in the period leading up to the election we will have project fear on steroids, but it is a short run-up this time.
All the time, the world will be looking on, and I’m not sure Johnson, and the imperial relic that is Rees mogg will be looked upon favourably.
It is the U.K. that needs to worry about ‘global recognition’, not Scotland.
In all honesty, I think within the SNP and SG there is a rabbit in the headlights glare. I know someone in the civil service who decided to vote NO at the last minute in 2014. He said, as “a government and civil service I just don’t know how we go about doing this, and there is very little evidence that anyone else does”. This was a multilingual and talented individual who could have probably been an ambassador now.
Thing is, nobody really knows or has the expertise to reboot a nation, because we haven’t done it before but there are many many examples we can look to for guidance as well as our own moral compass. The difference between us and the Etonian, is that they are born blaggers. They are no more intelligent just much more confident.
Lots of people said that indyref2 would have a very short lead-in. Well this is even shorter and it benefits us.
Are the people on here who say they will not vote SNP at the next election aware that this could result in a Tory/Labour coalition next parliament.
The two unionist parties will work together and share out the seats/votes to the stronger candidate and run sham campaigns for the weaker.
There is a strong possibility that SNP would lose to a Unionist coalition.
Dross as first minister, Lennon as Finance Minister
Is that what you folk are striving for, no possibility of a legal Indey 2 for another 5 years.
Perusing the copious amount of information provided on this blog, both above and below the line, consistently produces severe bouts of deja vue.
The way in which everyday regular voters and members in the Scottish Independence Movement are regarded and treated by the SNP organisational hierarchy and bureaucracy is exactly the same as that of the ruling Tory Government and what passes for the Westminster opposition.
Whether member or voter it is increasingly difficult to avoid the conclusion that members of whatever political party are merely surplus to requirements and if we have not already reached that position vis a vis the general voting population we cannot be far off.
As someone of my acquaintance recently observed:
“The business plan is – you work hard for nothing and I will be paid to take no notice of you once you have put me in a comfortable chair. I can see how that works for some until there is no one left to puff the cushions of the comfy chair up for them.”
General laws as well as internal rules are blatantly and consistently manipulated and used or not to suit convenience and, as often observed on this site, the faithful sheep can always be relied upon to prevent progress and support inconsistent application of principles and standards out with all rationality. In many cases, not just in Scotland on the Independence issue and the SNP, it’s like trying to talk to the Stepford Wives.
It’s the same perrenial problem met in any work place hierarchy. Even those with the fewest pips on their shoulder would rather be wrong and in control than be right when it means listening and acting on views from below. Because in that mindset it undermines the hierarchical authority.
And, as Orwell detailed in the Animal Farm example, Britain seems to possess a lot more than its fair share of forelock tuggers and cap doffers who ensure that everyone gets treated as a serf and a peasant by what is still a feudal based social hierarchy.
@gullaneno4
Yes, come what may, I think we have to give the SNP our constituency vote, to have, if nothing else, a decent launch pad for a plebiscite in 2024 either from the SNP or a pro-indy challenger party. Even if there is no referendum in the next few years, the mandate will still indicate an ‘intent’ to gain Scottish independence.
Individual requests/demands are largely being ignored by MSP’s and so we who are in the yes groups should make our collective voice heard via these groups. We are the activists who have spent the last 6 years campaigning and our voice must be heard more vigorously. S30 and later indyref (maybe) are dead. It is time for action.
@Gullane 04,
You have. faith. I admire that. Im afraid I am a creature kf evidence. What I see is an SNP defermined to delay indyref till it suits its purpose, even though the stars have aligned right now to make the Scottish people more favourable to the concept of liberty from Westminster. More than at any other time in the last six years or longer.
I am not voting SNP because they have deceived us all. I am voting for the ISP on the list.
I could just as easily claim that the SNP has the chance to influence that vote by taking action now to create new leadership and renounce the GRA and Hate Crime Bill and establish a firm commitment to hold a referendum or plebiscite at the May elections.
It is in their hands whatever happens.
It is their choice .
The majority of the people have spoken and they want May’s election as a plebiscite, so do your bloody job SNP and carry out the will of the people.
In the article Keith Brown refutes the need for a plebiscite in May saying not in May but at a later date as do the Greens.
Gullane No. 4
The SNP don’t own our votes, they must be earned.
Our current elected representatives are ignoring communication & representations made to them. So if anyone is to blame for your potential Grand Unionist Coalition (GUC) then it the The SNP for not giving the public something to vote for.
Your contributions smack of victim blaming.
You’re like a seagull, fly in make lots of noise, sh1t on everyone then fly away again.
You get several replies, but only ever respond to those who agree with you.
Any chance you can engage with what others say, make a reasoned argument, back it up & discuss like an adult?
PS they strategy you suggest for the GUC is effectively what they did at the 2017 WM election & even adding all 3 parties of the GUP they admittedly made some progress but were still combined, a minority.
The 2017 WM election is very similar to the current situation, as the SNP didn’t give us anything to vote for then, as they appear set to repeat for this years Holyrood elections.
Only 1 place to lay the blame.
Should there be a use by date for politicians? Problems seem to arise when they’ve been hanging around for some time and gotten used to the cosy perks of the job.
Maybe we need to clear the shelves more often, stock up with new and fresher brands?
Is Kevin McKenna the only hack that doesn`t realise British Labour in Scotland are an unimportant anachronism,
he`s like the BBC commentators that bring up 1966 every time England get a corner,
let it go Kevin let it go.
We really are caught between a rock and a hard place. Sturgeon needs to go quickly for this to be a remote possibility yet her ratings are still sky high. Her blind followers are so fickle they would vote this down just out of spite at the great one being supplanted as they cannot see the bigger picture.
Anyone who thinks she will ever commit to a plebiscite is living in cloud cuckoo land. She’s going to bring the whole house down with her.
ScottieDog says:
20 January, 2021 at 10:01 am
@gullaneno4
“Yes, come what may, I think we have to give the SNP our constituency vote, to have, if nothing else, a decent launch pad for a plebiscite in 2024 either from the SNP or a pro-indy challenger party. Even if there is no referendum in the next few years, the mandate will still indicate an ‘intent’ to gain Scottish independence.”
By your own words, you aren’t really interested in pursuing independence. independence. Got to vote SNP if if they can’t/won’t deliver a referendum because it will help the SNP campaign for Westminster in 2024.
You are Peter Murrell and I claim my legal aid and new hard drive.
@Daisy Walker
If enough people vote ISP on the List we could get a supermajority at Holyrood. Which will enable us to dissolve the parliament and call a fresh plebiscite election any time we so choose. This is ISP policy. If in that situation we WILL support it.
@Martin
SNP are 2 parties. The holyrood lot consumed by (LG) t(b) qiarzpfhspa issues and the Westminster lot who are altogether too comfortable and too pension dependent.
Then there is the 3rd SNP Party – the members who are consumed by independence
Just a wee idea… what if, around or at the same time as the Holyrood election, all the Westminster MPs stood down, forced bye-elections, and stood again on the main ticket of declaring the union over?
It should be possible to have both votes on the same day. I’m sure there were 2 votes held at the same time a few years ago, but can’t remember what. Maybe the Lib Dems proportional representation thing?
Anyway, two strikes into the heart of Westminster at the same time. What’s not to like?
From Forward As One / the Martin Keating’s case on the right of the Scottish Parliament to hold an advisory indyref.
“Below are the details for dialling into the hearings on the 21st and 22nd of January in the Peoples Action on Section 30 – Please note that the details are different for each day.
Date: Thursday, 21 January 2021
Time: 10am
Dial (United Kingdom toll): +44-20-7660-8149
Access code: 174 748 6619
Date: Friday, 22 January 2021
Time: 10am
Dial (United Kingdom toll): +44-20-7660-8149
Access code: 174 976 8813”
Someone correct me if I am wrong but, if dialling within the UK you can just key in a 0 instead of +44.
I think this counts as a call to a London number, so unless you have free minutes in a call plan, you risk running up a big phone bill.
Some call plans allow for one hour of free minutes. After that you are charged. So watch the clock, if that applies to you.
Gullaneno4
“Is that what you folk are striving for, no possibility of a legal Indey 2 for another 5 years.”
You’ll not get anything different keeping Sturgeon and her cronies in Bute House!
If you think she has any intention of doing anything other than providing Boris with just one more excuse to say “No” or, if he’s being polite, “Now is not the time”, you’re deluded!
What you’ll also get as a bonus for voting for the current SNP, as well as the pretendy ‘one more push for Indy’ twaddle, is a raft of Woke driven garbage legislation, thanks to the gender woo-woo brigade, and you’ll ultimately be silenced in law from expressing any opposition to it…
If, for example, you said that in your opinion a trans woman having male genitalia, and having no intention of undergoing a surgical procedure to remove such, was in reality a transvestite and under no circumstances should it be appropriate or indeed legal to allow transvestite men to access female only safe spaces, you’ll be slapped in irons and put away for your trans-phobic hate-speech, if the lunatics currently running the asylum get their wish.
Furthermore, do you understand the ramifications of perjury, witness tampering, conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, obstruction of justice, misconduct in public office or breaching of the ministerial code? Do you have any idea of the corrosive effect upon a country’s government, legislature and judiciary in the face of such actions? That, and the public’s perception of these institutions and high officers of state?
You want to endorse that with your vote??? Then you’ll be destroying the very thing you want to create before it’s drawn it’s first breath!
If the current leadership are in place come May, the only thing they and their acolytes will get from me are pelters and more demands to know where my referendum campaign donation went.
PS
You should think about changing your Nom De Plume…
Gullibleno1
Has a nice ring to it, don’t you think?
GullaneNo4 @ 9:52, why is that any different to a Sturgeon-led SNP taking office for the next five years? Nicola Sturgeon, and a large chunk of SNP leadership, does not believe in independence. They are devolutionists (auto-correct wanted to change that to revolutionists – ha ha).
Anyone who talks of a “Section 30 order” being a “gold standard” is, to use a good American phrase, talking Buncombe. It was a political negotiation between the SG and WM and it was given a cute label that would ensure passage at WM. The SNP exists to fight for the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty. If it will not do that, why is it deserving of your vote any more than another party?
@Robert Knight,
Can you envisage these fools ever drawing up a hate crime bill that was proportionate.? If drawing up policy to nail just one man was a shambles, and that was with legal advice and civil service input, then we are treading a path which would most definitely end in disaster.
@Bob Mack
My friend, I fear that the disaster of which you speak may already be upon us.
The thing about sink holes is that they take a long time to build, and they do it silently underneath – and nobody notices because outwardly everything is still the same – until it suddenly isn’t. The national press is still characterising the cover up over Salmond as a ‘spat that needs resolved’ – but at some point the sheer scale of all of this will spill over into the public mind – and the laws of gravity will apply.
@muscleguy
I fully support a plebiscite Indy election policy. For your info.
With regards s30/SNP current policy…. it seems staggeringly weak to me, that with 5 mandates in the bank, and a holyrood election imminent, they are not using the threat of a plebiscite election more, as leverage, in order to secure more devolution powers for Scotland.
They have been accused of being a clandestine Devo party, but current circumstances, and lack of action, would indicate they are teethless tigers in that capacity also.
For me, personally, if there is no change in policy/leadership by end of January, then the only thing that might make me vote for them, is to try and secure success for my second vote for ISP, and I’m not really sure how that works to be honest.
One way or another, there will be a clear out within the SNP.
I see no benefit in voting for them, for yet another mandate, for them to attempt to mitigate brexitEnglandFirstTory policy, while at the same time destroying what electoral credibility they have left.
We are no longer in, ‘let’s wait for the best time’ territory … we are now in, if we don’t fight now, we’re fucked and it’s over, time.
The above poll would indicate the electorate are aware of that, even if the SNP are not.
One thing that is of concern, when even the likes of Nigel Farage are casually mentioning that they don’t think a HE is going to go ahead, it’s indicative to me, that plans are afoot… and postponing HE, does not play to WM’s elbow.
If we vote in May, we have very little time to convince the voters the need for plebiscite Indy. Postponing it until September, gives us more time, particularly as the consequences of brexshit bed in.
I suspect something is coming down the pipeline at us, that we are not yet aware of.
Good that they’re eventually catching up. Even better if the leadership are shown up as being so far removed from the mass of yes voters, it gives impetus to the claim we are the driving force and not the party being the only obstacle which unionists have to take out. Take out Sturgeon or Salmond and more of us will rise up to take their place, either from within the party as it is currently instituted or by new people joining and carrying the independence torch forward, or from other parties with independence as the aim joining the fray. Either way, our mass voice being heard, it shows we’re not going away and with the younger generation coming up, that voice will only get louder.
‘Are the people on here who say they will not vote SNP at the next election aware that this could result in a Tory/Labour coalition next parliament.’
Yes, I’ve considered that and the prospect – especially at this time just after brexit – is intolerable. It’s why, despite everything we’ve learned, or feared, about the present leadership I will still be voting SNP. The goal is independence and, for me, that choice must still be made whoever is the temporary leader, especially considering afterwards anything might happen to change the party. And I feel things will change after this election whether the present incumbent wants it to or not.
Sturgeon is in a bind.
She can get the party back onside by supporting plan B.
But the minute she supports plan B the Brits will release what they have in her and it’s a lot.
She’ll probably try to tough it out with the party, piss off the Brits and she’s toast.
“It’s not a healthy state of affairs, readers. Something’s got to give.”
I agree that it would be really useful for the pro-independence parties to have something like ‘give us a referendum or we declare independence/sovereignty’ in their manifesto.
And the way to go about would be to Green Party members to put forward a motion like that to the spring conference. And if I remember the Green constitution correctly, then unlike the SNP, if it is supported by enough members, it will get debated debate and voted on. If it passes, then I think the SNP will adopt something similar and I doubt they want to be out-independenced by the Greens.
Polly
The problem is that you won’t “be voting SNP”…
Because, assuming she’s still FM, the SNP will announce to the world that every vote for the SNP was in reality a vote for Nicola Sturgeon, and oh look, isn’t she wonderful, our Dear Leader.
And if you weren’t already aware, everything I’ve seen to date suggests that Independence is not Nicola Sturgeon’s goal.
So good luck with that.
You called it correctly, Rev. The thing is, though, it’s doubtful that it would have made the front page of The National unless sanctioned by SNPG, so no matter what Pete Wishart or Keith Brown say, somewhere in there, I think – could be wrong – is a nod and a wink from herself.
“so no matter what Pete Wishart or Keith Brown say, somewhere in there, I think – could be wrong – is a nod and a wink from herself.”
I… I profoundly disagree with that analysis.
@ Davie Oga
What’s your strategy davie?
Mr C M Howie says
“We could easily win a majority in May, apply for s30, have it rejected, then hold a consultative referendum in September.”
What a genius plan, call a referendum for September then publish the grossly exaggerated GERS figures on 26 August. Project Fear and their media chums will think all their birthdays have come at once.
All of this “the international community will not recognise it” nonsense has come about as a result of Martin Keating’s court case to prove that a s30 agreement is not required. Look at the people who are chiefly driving this meme and you will see that they are SNP careerists who are afraid of losing their place at the trough.
After their success in the 2015 GE, driven by indy-supporters, the SNP witnessed a very large increase in short-money funding from London. That is when the landscape changed, Westminster then became the SNP’s main financial-backers and many at the top of the party rewarded themselves with large pay-rises.
The SNP became, and remain, the biggest barrier to independence. They will resist a referendum or plebicite election for as long as London remains the goose that lays the golden eggs. They have been thoroughly corrupted and are currently unelectable, yet they can simply laugh at us and ask “who else are you going to vote for”. They may be very surprised when many answer that question in May.
@ robertknight
‘And if you weren’t already aware, everything I’ve seen to date suggests that Independence is not Nicola Sturgeon’s goal.’
I agree with you here Robert – but Nicola Sturgeon is unlikely to be leader for long after the election, even if she survives that long – therefore would you want a future leader (possibly a ‘to your hearts content’ full blooded independence fighter) to have their hands tied, and constant gloating chants of ‘Scots don’t want independence’ if they should fail to get at least a minority government?
No I wouldn’t want my vote for SNP to be taken as other than a vote for independence – but what I’d hate more than the Sturgeon fan club gloating is the whole shoddy, despicable, disgusting unionist tribe of tories, Labour, Libdem, newspapers, Galloway, and especially that little runt Massie all gloating that Scotland doesn’t want independence and we are a cancer on the face of our country.
What I’d like even less is if Sturgeon goes and a new leader comes soon but would have not only their hands tied but the legs cut off at the knees because I voted in protest against Sturgeon, when she wasn’t to be there that long. Leaders come and go, independence is the important thing. And given I’m one of the ones now contemplating the unthinkable, that things have been orchestrated to make not only SNP unelectable, but with the unnecessary mistakes, bad decisions, and very public showing up of our police, civil service and judicial services, that they might also have been the target to discredit the whole Scottish public sphere to take away our belief that we have been pretty well governed in Scotland since Holyrood was convened. This would help take away much of our confidence in our institutions as a starting place for becoming independent. Unionists for a few years past have made much noise that Holyrood has been a disaster and should be closed – all of the failures in recent times leading to the start of full brexit and internal market bill, and by passing Holyrood, the crumbling belief in our institutions would be the perfect storm in which they could bring in some act of incorporating union.
I have for a while feared our situation – 20 years of making our own laws, gradually gaining confidence in our ability and becoming more and more estranged from Westminster had many similarities with Ireland in their 20 year period of the Grattan self government just prior to the 1801 union articles. I fear much the same for us. So at this critical moment – even if for one last time – I will still vote SNP, and I would urge all independence supporters to do the same.
Rev Stu says re. Holyrood plebiscite:
‘There is nothing remotely unconstitutional about it. It was the SNP’s policy for nearly 70 years. A party can contest an election on any platform it likes, and any explicit vote of a majority for self-determination complies with Article 1 of the UN Charter.’
Correction: it was the SNP’s policy in WESTMINSTER for nearly 70 years. Holyrood is a DEVOLVED ACCOUNTING UNIT’ it has no Sovereign powers to break the Union. FFS it has been overruled time and time again!It has no foreign policy or economic powers. Why persist with this pish?
Westminster is where our Sovereignty resides and where it must be reclaimed!
.
Keith fae Leith,
Thank you for your quote regarding Guilanegolfertrollnumber4…
Keith says…
Your contributions smack of victim blaming.
You’re like a seagull, fly in make lots of noise, sh1t on everyone then fly away again.
You get several replies, but only ever respond to those who agree with you.
Any chance you can engage with what others say, make a reasoned argument, back it up & discuss like an adult?
—-
Al replies…
Keith you are spot on and you made me (and hopefully others) smile.
Long may your lum reek and your pen have plenty of ink.
The answer is to have an another pro-independence party – whose focus is solely on achieving independence – contest the election for list seats only, and stop the SNP getting a parliamentary majority without their support.
In other words, force the SNP to compete for the independence vote.
comment-2599911 and comment-2599885
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
20 January, 2021 at 12:03 am
“There are some problems with that such as unionist councils not playing ball and unionists boycotting it.”
Yeah, just a couple of minor issues like we wouldn’t actually physically be able to do it and nobody would vote in it. Nothing serious.
Seen this a few times, is there any evidence for this speculation?
Has any council said they will refuse to organise a consultative referendum? At present there are no laws prohibiting the Scottish Government from holding one on any subject, therefore it is legal until such time as it is declared unlawful. If any councillor or council clerk refused a lawful request from the Scottish Government they would be breaking the law, this would be liking refusing to set a legal Council Tax rate. Has there ever been a Scottish Derek Hatton? Apart from the risk of arrest they would lose their cushy jobs. People who attracted to administrative roles in local authorities tend not to be daring revolutionary martyrs.
Absolutely agree with all the new party gang on here. Stu ends the article with something’s got to give – absolutely right…
The SNP monopoly on indy has to be broken, and quickly. It must be clear for all that they will never be the answer to our problems again. Completely out of touch with reality, yet completely unreformable.
The thing that really frustrates me is that folk have been saying this for months if not years. Nobody has done anything about it and it doesn’t look like it will be sorted soon, and forget about it in May.
The independence movement collectively hasn’t been good enough and has let Scotland down. Shame that those of us on here with sense have absolutely no sway
The Sturgeon/Swinney dynasty is dead.
We must not waste time on them.
Now is the point at which a new nation is born and in order for that to take place , it must first be defined.
After all these years, the fact that we do not know who we are or what we want to be is criminal.
We have been betrayed.
Swinney lied to Parliament. Is that not enough??
link to tns2019.org