The SNP Manifesto 2021
The most tedious question we ever get asked when we criticise the SNP – because we’ve explained it a hundred times already and none of the people asking have ever bothered to look – is “But what would YOU do to secure independence, clever-clogs?”
We’ve outlined that plan in detail repeatedly – you can read it again here if you want. But maybe we need something a bit simpler for the hard of thinking, so let’s have a go.
If we were in charge of the SNP, and nothing had materially changed by the time of next year’s election – which is to say that support for Yes was still in the majority and the UK government was still refusing to grant a second referendum – the text in bold just below this paragraph would be our entire manifesto.
It’s nice and short (barely over 200 words – in fact, amusingly we’ve just noticed that it’s exactly 1314 characters) and you could fit it on a postcard. Indeed, the core of it is all contained in the first paragraph alone, which is one tweet’s worth with 71 characters spare for a couple of hashtags and a link. The rest is just extra detail. So here it is:
———————————————————————————
We believe that the Scottish people are sovereign, and we hereby announce our intention to declare Scotland independent and submit that intention to the will of the people in this election for their approval.
Accordingly, if the Scottish National Party should secure more than 50% of the constituency votes in this election, we will consider that a clear mandate to withdraw from the Treaty Of Union, declare Scotland to once more be an independent state, and seek recognition from the international community on the basis of Chapter 1, Article 1 of the UN Charter, the right of all peoples to self-determination, that self-determination having been expressed by this vote.
Should the UK Government wish, we are willing to confirm that mandate via a referendum, to be held no later than three months from the date of the election, on the same question as that used in 2014. If no such referendum is requested or conducted, the declaration of independence based on the election result will automatically be considered to stand.
Upon the secure establishment of independence, a new general election will be called immediately.
With regard to other policies, our current positions on all issues remain unchanged, and all future legislation will be brought before the Parliament, debated and voted on in the normal manner.
———————————————————————————
(The bit in italics is optional.)
And that’s it. You’re done. An absolutely clear, impeccably democratic mandate that the international community would have no reason to object to. Everyone knows clearly what they’re voting for, and you’re even offering the UK government a second bite at the democratic cherry as a courtesy. It requires no permission – parties can stand on whatever manifesto they want in a democracy and put their proposals to the people.
Basing it on the constituency vote alone makes it simpler (one person, one vote), and it also prevents the election being used as a Trojan horse to smuggle in unpopular policies that people don’t want to vote for. You can vote SNP for independence on the constituency vote, but then vote for whatever party you want on the list vote, because the list vote is the actual intended mechanism for ensuring proportional representation.
It’s also very easy to understand and explain – effectively the constituency vote is the referendum and the list vote the election.
(Getting >50% of the constituency vote would not guarantee the SNP a majority on its own, although of course it would make it more likely, but you’re holding a new election as soon as you’re independent so it doesn’t really matter.)
If the SNP/Yes failed to get over 50% of the constituency vote on those terms, we’d have a Parliament where they’d still almost certainly be the biggest party and form the government (because they’re 30+ points ahead in the polls as it stands), so they have nothing to lose. On current polling they’re going to get zero or very close to zero MSPs from the list anyway, so no harm done there.
(And if you’re one of the weirdo 5-10% of SNP voters who don’t want independence, vote for someone else on the constituency and SNP on the list – under the D’Hondt system you should still theoretically end up with the same number of SNP seats so you lose nothing either.)
Pro-indy Labour (and Lib Dem and Tory) voters would also have nothing to lose – they could safely vote SNP on the constituency vote for independence and Labour on the list, and be confident of getting the number of MSPs they’re entitled to via the list system, exactly as they did in 2016.
Women and others uncomfortable with certain current SNP policies could do the same but voting for new list parties, giving them the best possible chance of blocking those policies without sacrificing independence.
And of course, diehard Unionists would simply vote as they’re going to anyway – the Unionist party of their preference on the constituency ballot, and Unionist on the list too. Indeed, it’s better for them as they don’t have to worry about “tactical” voting – any Unionist constituency vote effectively counts as a No.
All of the detail about the prospectus for independence, what currency we’d use and whether we’d still get Doctor Who, would be a matter for the campaign. If people were happy with the answers given they’d vote Yes (ie SNP on the constituency), and if they weren’t happy with the answers given they could vote No.
(If that process was good enough for the Brexit vote then it’s good enough for us. You can never have definitive answers everyone will agree on in advance – that approach was tried with the White Paper and it failed – so there’s no point worrying about it. People will either trust their fellow Scots to make it work like every other nation on Earth does and deal with problems as they arise, or they won’t. That’s the vote.)
Of course, there’s no guarantee that the UK government would accept the result of such an election just because they had no legitimate democratic grounds not to. They might try various diplomatic methods to pressure other countries into not recognising the new Scotland, but frankly the UK’s international stock and bargaining power is pretty tiny at the moment and we wouldn’t fret too much about that.
Or they might send in the tanks, though it’d be interesting to see what happened if, say, everyone went out and parked their cars on all the roads to Faslane. But since the alternative is to let them keep Scotland prisoner forever anyway, we don’t really have anything to lose there either.
It’s hard to understand why this isn’t already the SNP’s official public position. There’s no reason it should be a secret. It’d certainly have put a lot of people’s minds at rest and saved the party an awful lot of discontent and disharmony in the last year or two. There’s no reason to waste five more years begging for a Section 30 and then, maybe, propose something like this for 2026, by which time God knows what might have happened and there might not even be a Holyrood to have elections to any more.
If it continues not to be, people will be entitled to ask why.
Aye, sounds like a brilliant plan, one condition to add would be that the Brirish state has no input whatsoever in the referendum following.
Hate to be a nit picker but the electoral commission requires 6 months notice of referendums.
So it would have to be 6 months not 3.
@ Stu
Perfectly clear, democratically sound. What the heck is holding us back ? (rhetorical, of course)
Thanks as ever.
The electoral commission will need to up their game
I want international monitors and only people in Scotland can contribute
BBC need to be managed!!
Can this be put to conference
I couldn’t agree more, however as you point out Sturgeon and Murrell are having none of it.
Nice to have something constructive. I’d say the timing of any referendum would be AFTER two things- 1) a constitutional assembly has hammered out everything about how the new Scotland would look like, and 2) negotiations for the split. 1) would obviously sensible to bring onboard people that like to look at concrete proposals and 2) well we don’t know how long it will take, considering the uselessness, laziness and incompetence of the UK government to negotiate or do anything.
So in the end, use the election as a green light for both of those these processes. Adding arbitrary time limits is not a good idea, as we have seen with the Brexit debacle
It could also be widened out to include other Yes parties. The Greens may choose not to lose their deposits agains the SNP constituency jugernaut and the ISP certainly won’t be standing so if we take it on the constituency vote alone then job’s a good ‘en. I might even hold my nose and vote SNP 1 under that manifesto (note Nicola).
If we’re doing it on the List then a Yes Alliance of Yes delcared parties would be needed. Agreed in advance and in public that should satisfy our EU friends used to mulit party democracy. Doing it vaguely or claiming it afterwards wouldn’t work, it would have to be up front with the unionist parties forming a No alliance. That would flush out the Yes supporting unionist party people. Don’t like the SNP or Greens, fine vote ISP we’re Centre Left so there will be some policies to please Yes Tories as well as Labour folk especially since it’s really just Nu Labour folk now anyway.
I’m on the Defence, Environment and Education policy sub committees. The later could be the most radical but then Education needs a shakeup. Curriculum for excelence? my foot. Mediocrity across the board. If English kids can do GCSE and A-Level science then so can Scottish kids. Not 5 Biology is very milquetoast and rather uninspiring.
Denise, They can give notice of the referendum 3 months prior to the election.
“We believe that the Scottish people are sovereign”
Beliefs count for nothing in a game like this. It has to be proven that the Scottish people are sovereign, not just believed to be.
“Hate to be a nit picker but the electoral commission requires 6 months notice of referendums.
So it would have to be 6 months not 3.”
Then they can change the rules. 6 months is November, which is too late in the year, and 12 months is too long.
“It has to be proven that the Scottish people are sovereign, not just believed to be.”
The vote will be the proof. But the Claim Of Right was endorsed by vote in the UK Parliament barely a year ago.
Of course if she is faced with a vote of no confidence and there has to be a Scottish election now before brexit that would be ok
“The Greens may choose not to lose their deposits agains the SNP constituency jugernaut”
The Greens only stand two or three constituency candidates anyway. And none of them have a hope of winning. If they stand anyway and cost us the vote they can deal with the consequences.
I’d prefer to omit the preferences of the UK government altogether and undertake to hold a confirmatory referendum by Sept 2024 if the Scottish Parliament votes to hold one, but whole thing is excellent, short and simple.
“I’d say the timing of any referendum would be AFTER two things- 1) a constitutional assembly has hammered out everything about how the new Scotland would look like, and 2) negotiations for the split. “
No. You can’t do that, because you’re just giving the UK government a huge incentive to be obstructive and delay it forever.
Geoff Bush, September 2024? Did you mistype? Surely that is far too late.
So do you think attacking the SNP in your last whoophteen thoosand articles will help to get over 50%?
I’d only add something about creating a broad working group to prepare a written constitution for approval by the sovereign people.
But yeah, big thumbs up. It was good enough before devo and the way things are going there won’t be any devo so it’ll be good enough again.
Don’t say it is Sturgeon and not the SNP you have been attacking.
Your average man in the street doesn’t see any separation.
I fear this once great blog might cost us our independence by taking a 1% or 2% away from the vote.
Glad to see Wings focusing on main objective. Scottish Independence. Plenty of time to criticise and attack individual politicians and political parties once we achieve independence.
“Glad to see Wings focusing on main objective. Scottish Independence.”
Never been focused on anything else. Don’t make me ban you as well while I’m in a grumpy mood.
It’s hard to understand why this isn’t already the SNP’s official public position.
I couldn’t agree more. here’s hoping the SNP take notice, of course the careerists won’t like it but if there’s any justice they’ll be gone before the election, we can’t allow a small group of people hold us back any longer.
This has fair cheered me up though.
Clear, concise and eminently do-able.
I’d dispense with the confirmatory referendum offer. As far as I’m concerned a clear victory in response to a clearly stated plebiscitary platform is game over for the union.
Pete Wishart’s whiny arsed rejection in….three….two….one…..
Exactly! Nice and simple.
Let’s insist that Scotland just gets on with it. I’m sure Nicola Sturgeon actually can multitask.
“So do you think attacking the SNP in your last whoophteen thoosand articles will help to get over 50%?”
These questions are so monumentally fucking stupid that they’re just an instaban now. As I’ve repeatedly and very patiently explained, of course I fucking think attacking the current leadership of the SNP in order to replace it with one that will ACTUALLY PURSUE INDEPENDENCE will help achieve independence, or I wouldn’t be fucking doing it, you fucking idiot. Now fuck off.
Juteman, who I’ve met, is revealing his inner self. Who knew?
This is brilliant. I wish you were FM. That’s it!
Another SNP zealot appears complaining about something of other. Excellent way forward Stu. Simple and doable.
Now the rub. I would bet my car that the SNP will never do it.
The NOMENKLATURA will have none of this.
Great stuff, Rev. Two points: the naysayers would almost certainly attempt to get 100% of their electors out, so we would require to do the same, even if we have to carry punters on their sofa, complete with TV, to the polls; and I think we should have a case ‘oven ready’ to take to the UN General Assembly and based on the Treaty and Westminster’s consistent breaching, with a request for the Assembly to place it before the International Court of Justice (and/or its tribunals) in case the UK demurs. This latter, along with the offer of a ratifying referendum, would be held in reserve.
Stu Campbell
Your best article – ever, in my opinion.
Other than the word ‘belief’ which I raised in a previous post above, I can see nothing wrong with what the Rev has said.
So, we have a workable plan.
How do we implement it?
Fine words on a website is one thing but putting them into action is quite another.
Anyone got Mrs. Murrells phone number?
In a fucking nutshell.
Can this be put to conference to force it through
This works for me.
Could vote very enthusiastically for that.
As you say, it’s not acceptable to pretend we don’t know WM will try and say no and to have conveniently forgotten to have addressed provisos for that eventuality in the manifesto next year so you can go “oops it’ll need to be 2026 now”. Don’t insult my intelligence!
Perfectly possible, sensible and streightforward, which is probably one of the reasons Nicola sturgeon wont consider it. The other reason is that it would in all probability achieve independence.
Juteman says:
14 October, 2020 at 5:46 pm
So do you think attacking the SNP in your last whoophteen thoosand articles will help to get over 50%?
——————————————————————-
You’re posts are getting seriously f*cking irritating, he is not attacking the SNP he’s attacking what they’ve become under the leadership of a devious lying, conniving man hater, and if you can’t see that you’re a f*cking idiot
bloody brilliant;
let’s start the postcard crowdfunder
I have just read the SNP manifesto For the 2016 elections.
I loved the section on referendums. The polls now indicate the support they demanded and it is sustained. Even though we are almost out of Europe as well ,which was another criteria they had for demanding a referendum ,nothing happens.
If this manifesto is fudged by the need to meet some other fresh criteria then you know FOR CERTAIN they are utterly insincere and have no desire to make it happen.
It may of course be too late by then.
This lays out more political strategy than the SNP have issued since 2014.
We should all be sending this to candidates and MSPs as a clear statement of the intent and desire of the people.
The mealy mouthed civility has to go.
Good to be straight forward like this but I’m desperate
To remind voters that all unionist parties lied about delivering
Every aspect of their fake Vow that swung Indy ref 1 at the last minute.
If No voters can see that if every single Brexit vote cast was for Remain,
Scotland still gets dragged out of its EU citizenship because it suits England.
De-Grump,Rev,De-Grump! Watch that blood pressure. You’ve got the naysayers stuck in how to argue against it.
Excuse my ignorance here, but would the UK govt be able to do anything to stop the election, no holyrood no vote??
That if such a referendum is requested the UK have no say in its content, process or conduction.
Otherwise a good compromise plan.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The SNP Manifesto 2021 The most tedious question we ever get asked when we criticise the SNP – because […]
A win at round 1, would allow the EU to actively participate and woo our voters for the Referendum (round 2).
With Covid still so recent / and likely still a thing at that time, really, really not a good look for English second home owners to come up and try to game the vote.
Voter registering re Second home / postal voting needs to be secured.
Anyone spouting ‘Scotland will not be taken out of the EU against its will’ needs to be backing this, if they are serious.
Anyone currently saying, ‘Scotland isn’t ready for another constitutional vote’ given the current poling levels, and a no deal Brexit imminent, now has their arse hanging out the window.
There are certain SNP big wigs going to be chewing wasps at this, and not just because their bunions are playing up. Yeah.
Great article, I like the sound of that. Wonder if Sturgeon & Co would consider making this one of the “plans” up for discussion? She should *if* she’s serious about true democracy & *if* she’s serious about everyone pulling together etc etc.
Time for her to take steps to heal the wounds & rifts she and certain party members created. It is for them to hold out the olive branch to the likes of WOS, not the other way around. Can’t think of a better starting point.
Imagine the resulting figures for pro-indy given todays latest 58% now in favour. Very easily smash through the 60% marker. It’s not going to happen but we can still dream, right?
__________
Btw, the only part of the article I don’t agree with is this: “and you’re even offering the UK government a second bite at the democratic cherry as a courtesy.”
Nah! We’ve wasted enough time & money. Let’s just get on with things. Delay no more! London must be made to feel our newfound power immediately with one eye on the upcoming negotiations.
But as I said, nice to dream.
“ of course I fucking think attacking the current leadership of the SNP in order to replace it with one that will ACTUALLY PURSUE INDEPENDENCE will help achieve independence, or I wouldn’t be fucking doing it, you fucking idiot. Now fuck off.”
Nobody told me our Rev was a great poet, able to paint the most beautiful pictures with mere words.
Anyway, I actually think attacking the current leadership has already helped. They seem more focused on Indy now, with even people like Wishart talking about it occasionally.
But Joanna Cherry is right, we need to sort out the problems first.
If a new Salmond-led party emerges, this manifesto you’ve come up with would guarantee them huge support and success.
Over to you, blinky.
@Richard,
As in the article,tanks etc. Not a good look.
Just for clarity: In my post above at 6:59pm I wrote:
“It’s not going to happen but we can still dream, right?”
By that I mean the snp taking up this plan of Stuart’s as one of their own approaches. I wasn’t referring to the 60% because that will happen sooner or later.
Wingers who are still members of the snp should try and put this article/suggestion to Sturgeon & Co and see what comes of it. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Plus we’ve nothing to lose as things already stand.
It’ll do.
I feel obliged to huff and puff about “we believe”. I’d be more emphatic. The people ARE sovereign, so we can assert the people are sovereign and defy people to disprove it.
The other grump I have, is that Scotland’s decision to end the Union unilaterally, even though perfectly democratic, might, repeat might open a can of worms with regards to onus, costs and liabilities associated with ending the Union.
‘IF’ Scotland had weaponised Brexit and Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation, then we could have properly asserted that it was Westminster’s unlawful and arbitrary misconduct which broke the Union Treaty, and thus Scotland might not only secure Sovereign Independence, but also be entitled to compensation for the disruption.
Perhaps “compensation” is the wrong word, but when the carving up of UK assets got underway, if Westminster bore the responsibility for breaching the Union, Scotland could rightfully expect a settlement like a divorce, where the wife is entitled to keep living in the style she has become accustomed to.
What that means, or might mean, could be very important. Take the military for example. If Westminster was responsible for breaching the Union, Scotland would be perfectly entitled to expect a complete and functional National Defence over land, sea and air to be maintained as Scotland’s rightful settlement, or, be adequately compensated for any shortfall. But if Scotland chose to end the Union unilaterally, then those boundaries are blurred and suddenly you’re looking for amicable compromises… which we’ll have a devil of a job to get.
I’m telling you folks, democracy is lovely and all that, but if only we assumed the democracy box was ticked back in 2016, but unlawfully subjugated via Brexit in 2020, we could have declared that subjugation to be a breach of the Union Treaty forced upon Scotland, then we could have taken Westminster to the cleaners with the International Community backing Scotland to the hilt.
I don’t doubt this is the ultimate plan B if needed.
It’s a matter of when it’s played, not whether it exists.
Bob Mack says:
14 October, 2020 at 7:02 pm
@Richard,
As in the article,tanks etc. Not a good look”
_ thanks Bob. But I was thinking they could dissolve holyrood before any elections.
Richard says:
14 October, 2020 at 6:55 pm
Excuse my ignorance here, but would the UK govt be able to do anything to stop the election, no holyrood no vote??
The Civil Contingencies Act could be utilised to ‘postpone’ it, and a No Deal Brexit – food shortages, etc would meet the criteria for it to be utilised. In that event WM installs their own ‘regional leaders’ including in Scotland.
The Covid emergency laws – possibly could, and they keep drafting new ones, so, who knows, or they could refer back to Civil Contingencies (which include major disease outbreaks) but already (including America) this has been discussed in the media and seen as ‘a step too far’. With the emphasis being put on electronic and postal voting to facilitate it – something we want to avoid.
I’d suggest this would be a last ditch attempt. Before it got to that, they want the polls to keep high in support of NS, the AS hearing to be put on hold/disrupted to keep a lid on bad publicity for her and keep her power until after 31/12/20 – when Brexit comes into play.
Remember – a No Deal Brexit is their number 1 priority, and they’ve risked losing Scotland to achieve it.
PS more, much more should be made of the Claim of Right. This should be trumputed to high heaven and well known. Same as the Smith line about there being no block on another vote.
They have been too quiet on those points and they should be rammed home.
BUT this plan B requires international recognition. I feel, somehow, going through the motions first one more time would be more beneficial. However, I may be wrong.
Since Bojo believes himself Churchillian we could request a S30 with a time limit of end February and ‘if no such undertaking has been agreed for a S30’ it will be decided by the May election.
Brilliant.
As the tories are fond of saying ‘this is not the time for a divisive referendum’ let them know it is not the time either for an insane Brexit and possible no deal but because of this indy must be delivered.
@Richard,
Me too. To coin a FM motto.
… and lastly too, if we’d had the guts to end the Union, every girning Unionist bleating about the death of the UK could simply have been told to take their grievance to Westminster and Boris Johnson’s reckless Government as the party responsible for crashing the UK.
THIS IS A PLAN . I’M ALL FOR IT.
I have a choice whom to vote for as my SNP candidate. I will vote for the candidate endorsing this.
P.S. I would add :Anyone registering to vote who lives furth of Scotland should face jail. Lying during the election period – jail. MI5, MI6 ,newspaper ,BBC lying or interfering illegally – long time in jail.
Electoral commission appointed in Scotland, by Scots. UN observers. English electoral commission can do what they like but no access to the ballot boxes.
Well put it this way folks.If Boris dissolves Holyrood first then we know he was never ever going to sanction a section 30 in any event, and the SNP strategy was utter boll#£s in the first place.
Manifesto should be out now to maximise pressure on Johnson to be seen to deny the Scottish people of their right as being sovereign.
Utilise every trick in the book.
Either way minds will be focused.
PSS This is basically what Catalonia did with some caveats. Together for Yes (catalonia) to win the election, then they would hold a vote.
The mistake they made was to see a majority of seats as enough, not votes. Wings clever not to fall into that trap.
Regardless, the EU didn’t support Catalonia’s right to decide and even worse looked the other way at violence. I worry about legitimacy and think this card needs played carefully.
A wee thought – any qualified lawyer can register the illegality of the UK Internal Market Bill with regards the Withdrawl Agreement with the EU.
That gets adjudicated on under European Court of Justice rules and regs, and has 4 years to decide from the registering of the complaints.
I’m not at all sure that the EU is in any way obliged to inform Westminster that a complaint has been lodged, or at least details of who has lodged it and exact details of terms of complaint.
Like I say, just a wee thought.
On an allied note, I was listening to P.M. on Radio 4 having got home from work tonight and there was a “whither the Union?” conversation – regarding Wales trying to prevent cross-border travel, as well as a new poll showing support for independence at 58%. About 5.45/5.50pm, I think; not sure if it’ll be on the iplayer.
Agree with you @Ian McCubbin says at 6:56 pm adding the line:
“That if such a referendum is requested the UK have no say in its content, process or conduction.”
I also would suggest the addition of the following:
“and that an official observer mission from OSCE, ODIHR monitor this confirmatory referendum.”
Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).
Office of Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR).
The official body for monitoring democratic procedures within the OSCE is its Office of Democratic Institutions and Human Rights.
Monitoring includes MEDIA BALANCE and BALLOT CONDUCT (including the conduct of the postal ballot).
ODIHR normally send an advance team weeks or months ahead to monitor media balance!
The opener on Channel 4 news;
‘Is corona virus breaking the UK asunder’ BBC radio 4’s PM programme at the end had former Tory MP Matthew Parris saying he thought the break up of the UK was inevitable BUT that Boris will just keep saying no to a section 30.
The momentum is with another independence vote.
What’s depressing is that apart from the usual suspects there are no elected SNP people speaking up, speaking out against the current Sturrell strangehold on the party.
Works for me, a big thumbs up.
All accept that bit about being courteous, why the f#*k should be? Unless we decide that we would like to have a confirmatory ref just for the fun of it, but then again we could use same for something useful like “what we going to do about the NHS, or Faslane, or big Liz!
Reply to Derek at 724pm
Here’s the link to that PM Matthew Parris, Bronwen Maddox discussion starts at around 50 minutes in.
link to bbc.co.uk
I hope someone in the SNP gets Nicola Sturgeon to read this article.
It is clear, concise and straightforward.
The Rev. is a man with clinical logic and clear vision. Scotland has no future as a nation, if we do not defend our constitutional identity from populist and xenophobic English Torydum. Westminster’s law no longer holds MORAL force over Scotland, so it’s about time we stopped allowing Westminster, and our legal Establishment’s narrow British nationalism, to harm Scotland’s culture and democracy any further.
European Journal of Bioethics, Vol. 2 No. 2 (2011)
European bioethics institutionalisation in theory and practice
link to jahr-bioethics-journal.com
Denise says:
14 October, 2020 at 5:14 pm
Hate to be a nit picker but the electoral commission requires 6 months notice of referendums.
So it would have to be 6 months not 3.
Maybe a SCOTTISH Electoral Commission might have ideas of their own.
My wife says I’m a miserable bastard, she’s probably right.
I’ve always looked for the flaws and pitfalls and do so now.
We are dealing with Perfidious Albion, a state not to be trusted under any circumstances.
So we have a practical, democratic and feasible plan, however it revolves around an election for a devolved parliament. As we all know, devolution is power retained. We only got our parliament and the loan of a bit of power because of the Council of Europe and pressure brought by them to address the appalling lack of democratic representation in the UK.
So, when Johnson and his poison dwarf realise that there is a serious chance of them losing face and these uppity Jocks actually cutting the chains and drifting back to Europe they will have a cunning plan. It’s not hard to see from where I sit, they will have their lackey parliament declare a state of emergency, that will allow them to take direct rule and firstly they will suspend Holyrood.
A suspended parliament will not need elections so the democratic will of the Scottish people will not be heard. Job done! Then they will start to wreak their revenge, after all they are the entitled ones, groomed from birth to rule those they see as inferior.
Where will all this go, well I don’t know, but it’s not going to be pleasant for anyone.
Anybody want to tell me I’m wrong, they can’t act in this way for such and such a reason. I would like to be wrong, help me here.
Abalha says:
14 October, 2020 at 7:31 pm
Reply to Derek at 724pm
Here’s the link to that PM Matthew Parris, Bronwen Maddox discussion starts at around 50 minutes in.
link to bbc.co.uk
Unfortunately, you need to sign-in the BBC to listen. Something I have no intention of doing.
,
Wow,
Stuart Campbell, you have hit the back of the goal-net with those 1314 characters. Well done.
In my mind, I can hear Alex Salmond or Joanna Cherry saying those words, but Nicola Sturgeon would choke on her porridge before supporting independence.
There MUST surely be a mexhanism where IF one SNP branch passed that prime directive for the 2021 Manifesto and it went VIRAL around ALL the SNP branch constituency network with the majority supporting it, then Miss Sturgeon McWoker would HAVE to include it in the SNP manifesto.
Seriously Stuart, you must know you are onto something here?
C’mon chief, use that brilliant lateral thought brain you have and we will join in with our old noggins.
This article has the genesis of something REALLY seismic for Scottish constitutional settlement. At last.
Moonlight
I suppose it all depends on how overtly totalitarian and hostile towards democracy Westminster chooses to play the game, but I’m damn certain the global community would not tolerate such a direct challenge to the foundations of open society and the international rule-of-law. 😉
European Journal of Bioethics, Vol. 2 No. 2 (2011)
Tracing the roots of European bioethics back to the Ancient Greek philosophersphysicians
link to jahr-bioethics-journal.com
With a bit of tarting up, such a manifesto declaration will ring down the ages, similar to the 1314 document.
It certainly would be a resounding credit to anyone in the SNP with sufficient balls to approve it and cement their place in history.
Noticed the BBC invited the public health person for Blackpool to comment on Nicola’s comments amount avoiding bus trips to Blackpool. He made the point their infection rate is lower in Blackpool.
Nicola was quite clear about saying there was no evidence they caught covid in Blackpool but the were on a bus. They might have taken it to Blackpool, they might have caught it in Blackpool.
This point was discreetly avoided by the BBC. The virus can go either way.
Misreporting Scotland doing everything to undermine the stay at home message.
Can you add a condition that Westminster has to keep Pete Wishart?
@Rev Stu
you’re just giving the UK government a huge incentive to be obstructive and delay it forever.
Of course, you are right, a time should be put, before saying that we go UDI, and take all UK assets in Scotland, walk away from all UK debt. That would create the incentive for Westminster/rUK to listen.
Yes, something wrong with Nicola, the latest poll only 58%.
Fine putting this into the manifesto. However, the SNP better have their answers to all the awkward questions – legitimate and illegitimate – prepared well in advance.
One hesitation, and it will be cranked wide open.
Of course the SNP supporters of Nicola will probably say
“Now is not the time” Familiar?
@Colin Cadden says:
14 October, 2020 at 8:13 pm
“Can you add a condition that Westminster has to keep Pete Wishart?”
Plus Mhairi Black and Ian Blackford.
Buy one, get two free 🙂
In reply to Kenny J at 728pm.
I was merely posting a link I thought was being requested.
If you hate the BBC and you don’t listen to or watch any of its output fine.
I worked for them.
In all honesty what I have witnessed close up and personal to the SNP is of a level worthy of serious scrutiny, a scrutiny that many ignored in 2014.
Fine you can blame the BBC for loss of the 2014 vote.
As someone on the Yes Scotland media desk I squarely lay the blame at the door of Peter Murrrell, Nicola Sturgeon, SNP lawyer Scott Martin and those in their court.
‘It’s hard to understand why this isn’t already the SNP’s official public position.’
It really isn’t. Murrell, Sturgeon and their stooges appear to be completely uninterested in independence for Scotland.
This is a great plan, which only requires a National Party whose aim is unquestionably independence. Hopefully the new leadership of the SNP will quickly refocus on the number 1 priority.
Let’s get independence done!
Andrew Orr
I doubt the FM is responsible for the level of support, though she has grandstanded managing the covid-19 crises a bit, so I suppose that might play into things.
I’m certain her narrow and authoritarian parochialism poses a serious threat to all our futures though. Her legal position and practice simply presents a barrier to Scots ever enjoying the benefits of democracy. And threatens to hand Scotland over to the tender care of English Torydum and the radical right. ;(
#ragging
European Journal of Bioethics, Vol. 2 No. 2 (2011)
Kant’s categorical imperative and Jahr’s bioethical imperative
link to jahr-bioethics-journal.com
How long should we wait for an SNP response?
Sounds like a plan. The security services will need to engage in some mischief, not that they haven’t been busy, some overtime for the spooks.
I have to say well put together Rev, but it’s not really your job, this sort of thing should be produced by the SNP.
The question has to be asked why are the so called Nationalist pro Independence Party not driving this stuff?
I honestly would like to hear an explanation from them.
I don’t trust the poll. It’s too convenient for her at this time. They’re capable of anything.
We need to stick rigidly to Plan A: Regime Change. If we do, it guarantees independence.
We don’t need a Plan B.
@Ron MacLean,
By 2030 I would imagine.
Cameron Brodie
If not Nicola, who or what? Certainly not this site.
@Andrew Orr
Don’t be ridiculous. This site is offering a route to indy. Sturgeon’s SNP just isn’t, because it accepts the myth of the Gold Standard S30 sanctioned referendum, which BoJo has once again ruled out.
Nicola and her coterie of wet nats won’t deliver a vote, still less actual independence any time this decade. Either we do something different – exactly as Stu just outlined – and gain indy in the next year or we content ourselves with #indyref2039.
Pick one.
Pick
Excellent work Stuart. My only proviso would be to include mention of the almost three score Scottish MPs at Westminster. My suggestion would be that after withdrawing from the Treaty of Union, they should return to Scotland and form an upper chamber. Parliament would continue to pass legislation and the upper chamber would scrutinise, verify and authorise the legislation. It would act as a second check and prevent the concentration of power in a single person.
Hesitation is the name of the game for the SNP.
They might like the idea of Indelendence,but have no practical plan to bring the idea to fruition. Their followers avidly believe they have, and are patiently waiting in the living room whilst the rest of the house burns down around them.
AO
Someone who wants independence for Scotland.
Our problem is…
People who comment here on Wings, plus those who comment on other ‘pro-indy’ blogs, amount to a minority of the general ‘adult’ population.
Commenters on pro-indy blogs tend to be more up-to-date with the political shenanigans that are going on, hence the, sometimes, ‘strong’ debate that takes place, on the blogs. (And on Facebook and Twitter?)
The majority of the general population get their news from the BBC and STV, and from their daily read at coffee breaks and so on, from their choice of the Record, Star, Sun, Express, Mail, Courier, P&J and so on.
If the general population only see snippets of Nicola at daily briefings, or edited summations of briefings, or no mention of the scandal that has been going on in the SNP since 2016/17, the impression is created that Scotland/Nicola is doing RIGHT, whilst England/UK is doing WRONG.
Hence the increase in polling for independence.
End of thoughts…
@Bob Mack 8:41pm
I’m assuming the WoS – SNP Manifesto 2021 proposition has been submitted to the SNP leadership, perhaps via an MP or MSP, for consideration. Propriety would demand an acknowledgement and a response within a reasonable time. I don’t think the manifesto was produced on a whim and I’m sure there will be follow up at an appropriate time.
Abalha says:
14 October, 2020 at 8:22 pm
In reply to Kenny J at 728pm.
I was merely posting a link I thought was being requested.
If you hate the BBC and you don’t listen to or watch any of its output fine.
I worked for them.
In all honesty what I have witnessed close up and personal to the SNP is of a level worthy of serious scrutiny, a scrutiny that many ignored in 2014.
Fine you can blame the BBC for loss of the 2014 vote.
As someone on the Yes Scotland media desk I squarely lay the blame at the door of Peter Murrrell, Nicola Sturgeon, SNP lawyer Scott Martin and those in their court.
Thank you for explaining.
My opinion is that its equivalence is that of a link to the Daily Mail or equal.
BTW, you say you worked on the YES media side.
Appro nothing, I was in the Glasgow Yes office, the semi-subterranean place on Hope St. ? one day getting some items, when in swept H Yousaf, surrounded by minions, must have been about 4-5 of them. Swept past me and the guy on the desk. Through the inner door to the offices, I presume, and this is the bit that stuck in my mind.
The door was locked behind them, I though, possibly just me, bloody strange action that.
Concise reasoning there- a crystal clear manifesto to get us where we need to be next year. Thank you, Stu. This should have the Weesht crowd scratching their heids for a rebuttal.
What the gradualists don’t seem to get is that Sturgeon is going to get utterly pumped by the unionists in the run up to May. You’re dong the movement a great service shining a light on her complicity in the AS affair (along with Murray & Dangerfield et al) so that she’s removed soon rather than limping on as the easy target she’s become.
Mair power tae ye.
“Kenny J says:
14 October, 2020 at 9:31 pm
Abalha says:
14 October, 2020 at 8:22 pm
In reply to Kenny J at 728pm.”
Thanks for the link. I wasn’t asking for one to be posted, more wondering if there would actually be one as some of the news and current affairs stuff isn’t available on listen-again.
Apologies for any misunderstanding.
“Accordingly, if the Scottish National Party should secure more than 50% of the constituency votes in this election, we will consider that a clear mandate to withdraw from the Treaty Of Union, declare Scotland to once more be an independent state, and seek recognition from the international community on the basis of Chapter 1, Article 1 of the UN Charter, the right of all peoples to self-determination, that self-determination having been expressed by this vote.”
That strikes me as very decisive and uncompromising.
The incumbent Scottish Govt does not strike me as very decisive, indeed the opposite the shilly-shally about, and all their great polices get bogged down.
Based on that track record.
I can’t see this happening.
Completely off topic but a win in Slovakia next month and we’re in League A. England are safe from relegation and Wales have their noses in front in their group, so it is possible that all three countries on the island of Britain will be playing in the top flight of the next Nations League.
I think ths is an excellent plan — specific, clear and workable.
I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon could offer it plausibly, even if she wanted to. The manifesto can, for practical purposes, only be offered by the leader of the SNP.
So a pre-requisite for the plan is that the next leader of the SNP should be trustable by pretty well everyone who is prepared to vote for independence.
Make your own shortlist for the next leader (if you’re a membr of the SNP, which I am not) — but for heaven’s sake, don’t think of including anyone who would not be trusted by a substantial fraction of the ‘Yes’ voters.
Well done Scotland another win tonight and the Auld Enemy got beaten .
Andrew Orr
I have never been a member of a political party, or claim to have my finger on the pulse of Scotland’s body politic. However, I do know that a political leader who is unable to support bioethics, is also unable to support human rights or open democracy. Both kind of essential legal skills for a ‘leader’, if Scotland’s culture is to defend itself from expansionist and authoritarian English Torydum.
European Journal of Bioethics, Vol. 2 No. 2 (2011)
The importance of Charles Darwin‘s theory for Fritz Jahr‘s conception of bioethics
link to jahr-bioethics-journal.com
I see wet-nat in chief Wishart has pronounced on the WoS Manifesto:
“I think that vile #SNPbad divisor will ruin any prospect of independence with this nonsensical Catalonian style UDI. As if the Scottish people who have fought for independence peacefully for decades would even consider anything like that madness.”
Why are we unsurprised that he’s too blinkered (or just too intellectually dishonest) to actually engage with the substance of the argument but writes it off as Catalan style UDI. With no marks like this supposedly leading us, we’ll be waiting until 2039 for their precious Gold Standard referendum.
Andy Ellis
My comment was about the 58% poll, not about the means of achieving independence. You must have confused my comment with another.
Surely if we became independent all the Unionist parties, Labour, Lib Dems And The Tories should be barred from Holyrood immediately?
Why in the world would we want an independent parliament featuring 3 parties who represent the interests of a foreign country?
How could we call a new General Election within 3 months of the declaration of independence that still featured English parties who represent English interests?
“ Hence the increase in polling for independence.”
The one thing that Sturgeon has managed really well, credit where it’s due, is that she has resolutely avoided being Boris Johnson.
I think we could replace her, though, with someone like Cherry who might also manage to avoid being Boris.
Sounds fine to me.
Just for the record, after stressing over ‘how much would you be willing to sacrifice to keep independence’ a while back (Craig says you should be willing to stand your ground after independence is declared), and being a total pacifist to the core, I decided that I would not fight, but am willing to be cannon fodder – I will be standing in front of those tanks as they roll across the border. If someone wouldn’t mind filming the sacrifice, I would be very grateful.
First thing the rainbow fascist said after the 58% was announced was that Covid is her only priority at the moment, no rallying the cause, sticking the knife in. I’m telling you she has been instructed to get Brexit done and will never strive for Independence. What her cult can’t conflate is Brexit and the Bojo effect on the polls; they think it’s all Nicola and her TV show!!!
As the polls grow stronger, her position will be validated but by 1st January it’s game over. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; she will be gone after Brexit. Job done, she will leave a hero.
@Papko 9:46pm
‘I can’t see this happening.’
It won’t happen if we don’t make it happen. With a new leader, determined back-up from this site and the Yes movement and a revived, energetic campaign there’s every reason to believe it will happen.
Excellent. 11/10 , with a few tweaks.
This type of proposal has been discussed on these threads several times.
Really pleased to see you have put it forward in this way.
It would be an answer to folk like me & my siblings on how we vote next year, currently we are disillusioned & “mandated” out.
Hopefully this will gather enough interest & I suppose it puts the ball straight back into the SNP Court.
They’ve (the SNP) nae excuse not to do this the polls are as they asked and the EU membership gone despite Scotland voting to keep it.Two very explicit conditions from their last manifesto.
We have done everything they asked too, we kept them in power, we campaigned to change minds and we built groups that are all good to go.
It’s more than time to have our vote.
Will Westminster shut Holyrood or send in the Tanks…..who can say?
But if they did then they were always going to anyway and we have nae control over their response we never have had….all we can do is act for ourselves!
Parked cars are the least of the interesting things we do have control over and can choose to do.
The systems are all fragile and dependent on public cooperation ( remember Nicola musing that the government weren’t sure we would go along with a full lockdown which is another way of saying they could never have enforced one ).
Simple but perfectly legal things can melt systems where it matters…
Things like using only cash could have the Tesco and Asda bosses paying Boris Johnston a visit as could changing yer mind about a trolley load of shopping after it’s passed through the checkout but before paying ( of course never ever using a self checkout ) and doing it at every checkout at the same time as other Yessers Scotland wide would get their attention.
Withdrawing electronic and telephone communications from HMG and insisting on a letter is another simple but effective measure.
We are only limited by our imagination and don’t even get me started on the not so legal stuff .
This isn’t the 70s and making Scotland un governable is not all that difficult and if that was the route they chose id rather not leave it fur the grandweans to deal with…..
The Union is dead and we should get on and bury it because it’s stinking up the place 🙂
Three questions Wings:
Has this been posted on Twitter?
Are you happy with the wording as it is or would you like to change anything?
Are you going to write an article for the national?
Been an advocate of same for some time, with a slight variation…
>50% of votes PLUS >50% of seats at HR = INDY
No need for confirmatory referendum, which the Brits would only seek to rig – again.
This should be the single paragraph of any SNP manifesto, with the final sentence stating “No Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act will be required or requested”.
Hatuey
LOL.
It’s like people comparing Scotland’s ‘Covid performance’ with England’s (I.e. Boris) – not exactly the highest bar to be aspiring to,,,
It’s like the SNP Soundbite that’s irritated me since it was brought in,,, by NS? ‘Fairer and more equal society’
,,, why not aspire to a ‘fair and equal society’? My brain just keeps adding ‘than what?!’ at the end of it: fairer and more equal than what? Than Saudi Arabia? Well, jobs a good un then isn’t it?? Done already, well done.
I really wanted the transparency part that was promised – that seemed fairly clear – it wasn’t ‘more transparent’ or anything, just transparent,,, or not, *sigh*
I think I have mentioned this on here before but I still don’t know: is anyone working on a leadership contest? It has to be done before the Conference so time is running out.
I haven’t heard a whisper.
@Andrew Orr
It was in response to your puerile
“If not Nicola, who or what? Certainly not this site.”
comment. Hardly rocket science.
Clear on transparency, clear on the causes of transparency.
I think everything is going to come together nicely though. The polls suggest support for independence rising and that’s not the same as support for her, as much as some will say otherwise.
One way or another, no matter what happens, she is finished and we end up with a resurgent and revitalised independence movement. A real one. That’s brilliant in itself.
Sounds like simple plain English that even the English Government should be able to understand, with no malice aforethought towards them or any other.
Incidentally, from a marketing standpoint, it would be pretty useful if Cherry came out with something on coronavirus that set her apart from Sturgeon and put people and public health at the heart of a new strategy for stamping it out.
It’s a total vote-winner waiting to happen. Sturgeon has been in lockstep with WM and they have completely and utterly screwed up. The only reason nobody sees that is because we are inside the UK propaganda bubble. Everybody else outside of that bubble sees the blundering for what it is.
They’ve been totally making it up as they go along.
Cherry could make a huge positive impression here. And if done properly with emphasis on borders and controls on those bringing the disease into Scotland, it should bolster the case for independence; it should bolster it as much as brexit, when you think about it.
Bravo! At last, thank you Stuart.
Let’s make this happen, we must. If we don’t act I truly fear there will not be an election in May. Anything at all I can do, I will.
Contrary
A ‘fair and equal society’ is really possible or ethically attractive, as ‘equality’ denies biological individuality and requires enforcement. So if you’re hoping to support justice, you need to start thinking in terms of “equitable political economy”. Which just isn’t ever going to exist in Brexitania.
Full text.
link to oxfordhandbooks.com
OK let’s address the Catalonia / UDI comments:
1. From @Ross says at 7:20 pm:
“Regardless, the EU didn’t support Catalonia’s right to decide and even worse looked the other way at violence. I worry about legitimacy and think this card needs played carefully.”
Ross, Scotland is an ancient Kingdom whose parliament passed an Act to enter into a Treaty to form a Unitary State with the Kingdom of England (as such the Sovereign People of Scotland can instruct our politicians to withdraw from said Treaty via Article 60 of the Vienna Convention if we vote for this).
However, Catalonia is a region of Spain and Spain’s constitution is based on “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation” ergo it prohibits the break up of the country.
2. Agree that Wishart is a “no marks” @Andy Ellis says at 9:56 pm
“I see wet-nat in chief Wishart has pronounced on the WoS Manifesto: “I think that vile #SNPbad divisor will ruin any prospect of independence with this nonsensical Catalonian style UDI…..”
If Wishy Washy actually believes that Catalonia and Scotland are constitutionally comparable he is a fucking ignorant disgrace.
To be so unaware despite trousering MPs wages and benefits as a representative of the Party of Scotland’s Independence for years is unacceptable.
In reply to Kenny J at 931pm
You are right, that door from the reception area to the wider office area was on a locked door, that wasn’t just for them.
Always thought it odd that we were basically sealed off from anyone dropping into 136 Hope Street.
Excellent article, although I firmly believe that no referendum is needed. It is a treaty, and it has been broken and is currently being ignored by England. It is null and void.
Anyway, that aside, meanwhile the leader of the supposedly pro independence SNP has yet again re-affirmed that despite polling results she intends to do sweet f all about independence, brexit or the complete destruction of dveolution.
The SNP, the do-nothing party.
I am slowly starting to think that the anger across Scotland is now so great and the utter intransigence of Nicola Sturgeon so pathetic, that the time is coming when Scots will need to take independence for themselves.
The SNP have now shown themselves to be a waste of space. Any other political party in any other country wanting independence would be running with it NOW, but not the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon is utterly utterly pathetic, in every single way. She should step aside, and let us get on with freeing Scotland from England’s abuse.
May 2021 is too late.
sorry…A ‘fair and equal society’ ISN’T really possible or ethically attractive….
Yir 2021 Manifesto gets my vote Stu!
@ Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 October, 2020 at 9:24 pm
Our problem is…
People who comment here on Wings, plus those who comment on other ‘pro-indy’ blogs, amount to a minority of the general ‘adult’ population.
Commenters on pro-indy blogs tend to be more up-to-date with the political shenanigans that are going on, hence the, sometimes, ‘strong’ debate that takes place, on the blogs. (And on Facebook and Twitter?)
The majority of the general population get their news from the BBC and STV, and from their daily read at coffee breaks and so on, from their choice of the Record, Star, Sun, Express, Mail, Courier, P&J and so on.
If the general population only see snippets of Nicola at daily briefings, or edited summations of briefings, or no mention of the scandal that has been going on in the SNP since 2016/17, the impression is created that Scotland/Nicola is doing RIGHT, whilst England/UK is doing WRONG.
Hence the increase in polling for independence.
End of thoughts’
You make a good point Brian, my suspicion though is this, the New Labour tactic takes time to make them completely unelectable. And I’m thinking in terms of 5 – 10 years.
They haven’t had that.
For those who have come over from No to Yes, it has been much, much more about the 2 x BAB (Bloody Awful Boris + Blood Awful Brexit).
Even if Shifty/Blink Blink gets thrown under the Bus by the Brit Nats once they have their no deal Brexit, and totally goes all out to make the SNP unelectable (with regards the course of their conduct).
I don’t know if it will be enough to change former NO voter’s minds back again. By this time they might just want to sort things out themselves.
@ Lizg
re parked cars in the face of tanks.
I was watching Graeme’s excellent video about the Catalan elections.
And as the riot Police marched in, I thought – what if – the voters had thrown down hundreds of wee stubby pencils onto the ground in front of them – kind of like ‘the pen is mightier than the sword’ moment.
Terribly difficult to keep marching formation with wee stubby pencils un’er foot.
And totally in keeping with peaceful protesting ethics.
PS Graeme, I passed on my e-mail to the Rev to pass to you. If you haven’t received it let me know, or if you have, and have sent a message, I haven’t received it, so also let me know.
The problem we have is,when a party becomes dominant in national politics for an extended period – say 10 years – people with ancillary objectives attach themselves that that party in the hope of effecting their own agendas.
I was talking to a friend tonight, who was friendly enough with Angus Robertson to share the occassional pint. He met with Angis’ brother around a year ago, and said, considering Brexit, it was now or never for Scottish Independence.
The guy looked embarassed, and muttered something about taking it slowly. And then cold-shouldered my friend for the rest of the evening and ever since.
So it’s painful to live in a time when support for independence is at an all time high, but many of the figureheads of the independence movement whom would love to trust are anything but.
The hope must be the will of the people will override the non-Indepence agendas and self-satisfied sinecures of our current SNP representatives.
As soon as the SNP became the party of government, and was entered by the usual careerists, many of them refugees from the “Scottish” Labour Party, who brought their quaint little ways with them, the game was over.
These were joined by the ragbag alphabet-soup loonies of’ Woke’ dystopia, who spotted the perfect vehicle for their perverted agenda. They proceeded to work through the entryists playbook whereby a dedicated group of malcontents, with nothing else to take up their time (distractions like family, kids and normal jobs), can with relatively small numbers, insinuate their way into positions of influence an take control.
2014 was the watershed. A leader wholly dedicated to independence stood down, to be replaced by someone whose agenda was more about social engineering than national self-determination. The cabal around her wanted to make sure the independence boat was burned, and conspired to do just that, and they were joined by those for whom an eternal ‘striving’ for the (unobtainable) goal of ‘Independence’ would suit them and their pension pot and fat salaries just fine.
Rev Campbell’s manifesto is just what the traditional policy of the SNP (that I have been a member of for nearly 40 years) was until the Devo-Opportunists took over the party. It is beautifully and very simply stated, and should be embraced by all who ACTUALLY WANT INDEPENDENCE.
For that reason, sorry to say, it doesn’t stand a chance.
Perpetual striving for the perpetual perfect mandate, will provide perpetual sinecures for perpetual chancers.
Saffron Robe says:
14 October, 2020 at 8:57 pm
Excellent work Stuart. My only proviso would be to include mention of the almost three score Scottish MPs at Westminster. My suggestion would be that after withdrawing from the Treaty of Union, they should return to Scotland and form an upper chamber. Parliament would continue to pass legislation and the upper chamber would scrutinise, verify and authorise the legislation. It would act as a second check and prevent the concentration of power in a single person.’
As long as Pete Wishart doesn’t get to be speaker, or even speak in it.
I am of the same mind as Contrary at 10:01 pm. Mahatma Gandhi said, “There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for”, and I would willingly sacrifice my life for Scotland’s freedom.
If the Murrells hang on, I wonder what weasel worded formulation the SNP manifesto will use to pretend they are going to do something about a referendum.
OK, so we’re in Dodge and the sheriff appears to be a bit of a wrong un. As are a good proportion of our legal Establishment, apparently. That doesn’t mean the law is institutionally against us though. Not that I think the legal route to indy is the desirable or most practical solution to our problems.
All I’m suggesting is that an ethical approach to legal practice and politics would at least help the prospects of Scots ever enjoying “equality in law” and substantive human rights. So we’re pretty much on to plumbs unless the NEC is made fit for purpose, as we’ll not change the BritNat DNA of our legal Establishment.
It’s only those who control Scotland’s legal identity who are stopping nature taking it’s course, and undermining the potentially for Scots to enjoy the benefits of democracy.
Full text.
link to link.springer.com
:Ron MAclean
@It won’t happen if we don’t make it happen. With a new leader, determined back-up from this site and the Yes movement and a revived, energetic campaign there’s every reason to believe it will happen.@
So you are going to get a new leader for the party and replace her with someone more decisive and uncompromising, like Swinney, Cunningham ? or Cherry. And then in the remaining time till MAY, get the engine going full blast ( as the 2021 Elections will be a indyref)
And the SNP will have to stand on the single issue, of doing this, from the very start of the campaign, no conflating issues.
It just sounds so uncharacteristic, bit like the 50 year old chemistry teacher who started cooking crystal meth.
o/t
LBC Radio right now full on propaganda mode , Curtis the Tory polling expert grudgingly gives the usual we can’t take these latest results as meaning to much , The presenter selectively quoting the usual once in a generation pish , A bit of advice LBC we have seen and heard all this pish before in won’t wash again the more you push it the worse it gets for the Scabby Usless Union, it’s amazing how many English people are living in Scotland , to many .
@ Craig Murray,
‘If the Murrells hang on, I wonder what weasel worded formulation the SNP manifesto will use to pretend they are going to do something about a referendum.’
If they hang on, post 31/12/20 – the BritNat gov will unleash the media hounds and the SNP will not get a majority, they will still be riddled with unelectables, and they will be the New SNP – issuing statements promising to ‘listen to the electorate’, lessons to learn, blah, blah Job done.
“A ‘fair and equal society’ ISN’T really possible or ethically attractive….”
Hmmmmm…
Hollow words and slogans are difficult.
Maybe on a more practicable level we could settle for feeding people, providing opportunities for them to take part, and sharing some of that land that’s devoted to fuck all outside of sheep and grouse.
If Nicola faces a vote of confidence in the Scottish Parliament does she have a enough friends to survive
This Manifesto Policy needs a Name.
The Claim of Right Manifesto? (The word ‘right’ might put off some voters/ provide the media a stick to hit us with).
The Sovereign Scot Manifesto?
Scottish Sovereignty Manifesto?
The Lothian Answer Manifesto?
It definitely needs a name. Any suggestions.
Hilarious
Colin Cadden says:
14 October, 2020 at 8:13 pm
Can you add a condition that Westminster has to keep Pete Wishart?
Hatuey
I’m all for social justice and substantive human rights, in case you’ve not noticed. It’s just that striving for social equality is a busted flush. Not only is it unachievable, it’s morally undesirable as it denies humans are different to each other. So a totalitarian legal environment would be required to force a social order that denies nature (see GRA amendments). ;(
Finance & Development, June 2020, Vol. 57, Number 2
The Political Economy of Economic Policy
We should pay closer attention to the interactions between politics, economics, and other realms
link to imf.org
Daisy Walker @ 11.20
LOL I like yer thinking Daisy..
See what I mean about imagination, I’d also have said it’s hard to march or drive on a surface full of cooking oil….that’s what I’d have flung in front of them
Great manifesto!
CameronB Brodie, I can say all that just by the way I stand.
Hatuey
So can I. Perhaps we should get together and ‘vogue’ for indy? 🙂
Anyway, I’m a bit worried tonight because I’m detecting a lot of happiness on here.
Happiness is bad. Happy people tend to stick with the status quo. Angry unhappy bastards tend to change things, so I need you all angry and pissed off.
And let me remind you and assure you that you have much to be pissed off and miserable about…
There’s a fucking plague upon all our houses and we need to get rid of these people before we get excited about nailing demands to the door of Westminster.
And in case nobody noticed, CameronB still thinks pasting links and using big words might get him a bird.
Blah, blah, blah… don’t get even, get angry. Whatever.
lol @ Vogue for indy
Sturgeon is a horrible lying wee bastard.
Dangerfield is on to something;
“David Clegg wrote in the Daily Record:
“Acting on a tip-off, we submitted questions to the Scottish Government on October 31 last year, in a bid to ascertain if any complaints had been made about Alex Salmond during his tenure as first minister.””
“We must find out, and the inquiry must know, how it could be that David Clegg and the Daily Record knew something about these complaints on 31 October 2017 when, so we are told, no-one in the Scottish Government, up to and including Nicola Sturgeon, had any idea about them…”
link to gordondangerfield.com
One of these strands is going to be strand that ensnares them.
When can we expect to see the new materials supplied to the Inquiry?
This should make folk very, very, angry. That’s if they have an ounce of self-respect and a modicum of a self-preservation instinct about them. Having one of those is kind of a handy thing to have, as it informs reasonable individuals of when to priorities their primary moral obligation, which is to maintain our biological integrity. Mkay?
link to pdcnet.org
Great idea Stu, simple and reliable and would achieve its purpose.
@Earl says:
14 October, 2020 at 9:57 pm
“Surely if we became independent all the Unionist parties, Labour, Lib Dems And The Tories should be barred from Holyrood immediately?
Why in the world would we want an independent parliament featuring 3 parties who represent the interests of a foreign country?”
That idea would really go down well in the international community. That’s as bad as the idea of only letting people born in Scotland a vote.
North Korea has more flexibility.
re. democratic participation. Here’s where it helps if your legal horizons are not confined by the legal pseudo-science that passes for British constitutional law and legal practice. Or your head full of anti-foundational ideological contrivance. 😉
link to link.springer.com
And if the Justice Minister is concerned with serving the interests of justice, he could do with developing a rubber ear to the Lord Advocate, and perhaps he could also learn a bit about how the law works before seeking to impose grossly restrictive laws on Scotland. Just a thought. Night, night. 😉
Criminal Law and Philosophy volume 14, pages 417–430 (2020)
Legal Moralism, Overinclusive Offenses, and the Problem of Wrongfulness Conflation
link to link.springer.com
Very well put forward, succinct and straight to the point Stuart
A wee suggestion would it be possible for K MacAskill, Chris McEleny, Angus B McNeil, Joanna Cherry, Philippa Whitford and ANY other independence supporting MP’s and MSP’s to throw their weight around this proposal, and maybe DROWN OUT Pete Wetfarts moans and gripes
I agree with someones post upthread we MUST ALL send this to our MSP’s and MP’s and demand they back it and put it forward as the manifesto ASAP
Robert Louis says:
14 October, 2020 at 10:49 pm
Excellent article, although I firmly believe that no referendum is needed. It is a treaty, and it has been broken and is currently being ignored by England. It is null and void.
Correct. Once the Treaty is gone, even supposing there was subsequent referendum which voted No and delivered a mandate for the Union, the old Treaty of Union could not be resurrected. Instead of restoring the Union, they’d need a new Treaty of Union to be agreed from scratch, – a new Union and agreed by both Scotland and England.
I’d say that would be impossible Impossible in theory, but if the likes of Sturgeon and Wishart are still in the picture, I’m sure they could royally screw it up, and forfeit every Constitutional strength an Independent Scotland possessed in order to secure some obscure and irrelevant concession to keep themselves in office. Bought and sold for English gold all over again.
It would further be impossible to resurrect the Union if even a brief opportunity to be a Sovereign Nation allowed us to drive out the propagandist media in all of it’s duplicitous colours, and fill the vacuum with honest and constructive political discourse generated here in Scotland. No more debates with skewed audiences, rigged questions, and one sided panels featuring Unionist mouthpieces with no mandate coming from Scotland’s electorate. No more false dirge about Scotland’s hopeless predicament as a needy appendage suffered by England’s generosity.
Do it Scotland. Press the button. Our world turns again the moment the Union is dead. For the first time in three centuries, Scotland will draw its first breath of fresh air as a free Nation.
I confess too, I have a curiosity about International Recognition. Yes, it is needed and the ideal to aim for, I agree. But yet, if the Union Treaty can be ended by one of it’s Nation signatories, then the Union Treaty is legally dead. And if even a domestic Unionist mandate in a referendum could not thereafter resurrect the Union, I don’t see the International Community having any mandate or authority to preserve or restore the UK either.
I have a notion they would be obliged to recognise Scotland as an independent Nation because International law would require them to, or else find their own Nations to be complicit in unlawful colonialism and the subjugation of one legally sovereign Nation by another.
@ Daisy
I haven’t received anything yet. I have made a start but having not heard anything I thought you maybe went cold on the idea,hopefully we’ll gat up and running soon
To the deluded who believe a Section 30 is on the horizon and to the mendaciously misleading who encourage them to buy into that delusion.
In today’s Times
”The UK government will use its new “hub” at New Waverley in Edinburgh as a base to work from in Scotland. Officials from Downing Street, the Cabinet Office and the Department of International Trade will be based in the seven-storey office. Cabinet will be held there once Covid-19 restrictions ease.
In Whitehall, the union policy implementation committee, which is chaired by Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, and includes Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, has been meeting every two weeks to discuss policy ideas”
link to archive.is
Excellent. Set out very clearly and not overloaded with unnecessary detail, which was one of the reasons the White Paper, while well intentioned, failed to win over enough people.
I’m with the “stuff the confirmatory referendum” folk. There is no reason to have one, and as others have pointed out, the Britnat establishment would do every single thing in their power to gerrymander it. And given the extent of their power, they would probably succeed.
I’m also very much in the “Fuck the Electoral Commission” camp. Why should I give a rat shite about the Electoral Commission and its “rules”? I don’t remember ever voting for any Electoral Commission.
@ Graeme and Daisy Walker
One of the things I’m going to do next time I get a chance to post at the top of a thread is beg Rev Stu to let you post the timeline as an ATL article.
It’s very difficult to read as a comment, and you can never be sure you have found the latest version.
As an ATL article everyone would always know where it was, and comments could be used to suggest additions, improvements and amendments.
I think it would also be good to have it reformatted into some kind of a proper spreadsheet, maybe with layers, to make it much easier to read.
.
Maybe you guys could back up my request.
@twathater
I agree it’d be interesting to see how many sitting and/or prospective MSPs would be willing to sign up to this? In reality such is the gradualists hold on the party I suspect the answer will be pretty close to none! Five will get you ten most flatly refuse (particularly given it comes from WoS!) and the rest will issue some mealy mouthed platitudes about it not being the time / Gold Standard / Boris will have to bow to the will of the Scots people etc. etc.
The same thing happened in GE2019 if you asked about views on GRA: most pirouetted madly on the head of an ideological pin to avoid giving a straight answer.
Barring political earthquakes I think we have to accept that nothing meaningful is going to happen until after HR2021 elections now. We just have to hope ordinary members can re-establish sanity in the party before Sturgeon and the woke Stasi do more damage. If that proves not to be the case, there is work to be done building a “real” independence movement.
Good. Especially the first para.
Let’s get on with it! Oh, wait…
…we have to deal with the Murrells first…
It’s worth a browse through the comments in Iain Lawson’s blog from yesterday, link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
Looks like the membership is starting to realise what’s going on but a solution is hampered by a lack of communication. A simple list of the branches and the people to contact would be a huge step forward.
The choice is now destruction of the leadership or destruction of the party. Pick one.
Albaha -:”The UK government will use its new “hub” at New Waverley in Edinburgh as a base to work from in Scotland. Officials from Downing Street, the Cabinet Office and the Department of International Trade will be based in the seven-storey office. Cabinet will be held there once Covid-19 restrictions ease.
Sturgeon’s response “Now is not the time”.
She needs to go. She is not respecting the will of the electorate. Do the SNP not realise that we have already on the people. Why do they think we wouldn’t in if we proceeded to take our independence.
There has in effect been a gradual soft coup in the UK from March this year.
The UK Parliament has been side-lined, it’s job, even when it’s sitting to simply to rubber stamp diktats from the State.
The UK State is now the Cabinet Office, it governs policy and it issues instructions like the “Central Committee”, Johnson essentially it’s spokesman.
We are not dealing with the same creature we were dealing with in March this year never mind 2014.
We can request of this new rogue state S.30s till we’re blue in the face, it won’t happen.
The policy outlined by Stu requires the backing of big hitters in the SNP as I’m sure he knows. Judging by several recent articles on here contact is well under way, however time is short.
It also requires change at the top of the SNP – a clearing out, not just of the leadership but also of their allies and helpers at all levels – it should be ruthless and rapid.
A piece from Iain Lawson’s blog today commenting on the absolute uproar that is now enveloping SNP branches up and down the country.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
If the leadership think they have rigged well they have another thing coming.
Good manifesto, I would be very happy to fight for the SNP with this as the way to win Independence back for Scotland.
link to twitter.com
No. Getting rid of Nicola Sturgeon as the most gutless, conniving, and useless FM in Scottish history matters more to those people who actually want Scottish Independence delivered.
I am just interested to know what Sturgeon’s game is.
We are at 58% in the polls, Brexit is 2 months away. The power grab is happening , and she wants to concentrate on Covid.
Does she want us all to suffer before she pulls the trigger, does she not want independence, does she think we can wait until May 2021, is she planning on resigning in December. Is she just stringing us along , and hasn’t a clue. Does she still think Boris will send her a nice we Section 30 agreement.
Which one is it?
As an aside regarding international recognition after the 14 ref I was working abroad and everyone I met was asking me what went wrong.
The overwhelming expectation was that we would be independent so I believe the popular vote would be with us going forward.
Breeks says
I have a notion they would be obliged to recognise Scotland as an independent Nation because International law would require them to, or else find their own Nations to be complicit in unlawful colonialism and the subjugation of one legally sovereign Nation by another.
This is well supported in legal a d diplomatic writings such as Justice, Legitimacy and Self Determination by Allen Buchanan.
I also subscribe to this view and have stated such on twitter and Facebook repeatedly over the last year.
With the internal markets Bill, both recognition as nation and the right to dissolve the union are now even more mandated legally in my opinion.
In all the hullabaloo it was extremely telling when the absolute scheister that Boris is referred to the Scottish Nationalist Party in the HOC yesterday.Fuckwit of the highest order and no mistake.They are worried though.
and nothing had materially changed by the time of next year’s election –
I couldn’t stop thinking about this yesterday and I honestly believe many things will change before the election, Boris Johnson no longer being PM for one thing, we know how important holding onto Scotland is to Westminster and I fear they will make any changes deemed necessary to ensure they do hold onto us, I don’t think I’ll breathe easy until Independence is actually declared.
`“David Clegg wrote in the Daily Record:
“Acting on a tip-off, we submitted questions to the Scottish Government on October 31 last year, in a bid to ascertain if any complaints had been made about Alex Salmond during his tenure as first minister.”
is Clegg due to give evidence,or has he already
the identity of who spoke to him regarding Alex is the most crucial piece of evidence,
if we know this everything falls into place,
is Clegg still in Scotland havn`t heard from him for a while,
Clegg must be made to divulge who spoke to him.
Sorry to say but Nicola atill has too much support.
The ‘concentrating on Covid’ yesterday received over 5k likes.
I despair at the blinkered ones and was quite shocked yesterday to find out the Proclaimer brothers were supporting Angus Robertson. WTAF!
So you are going to get a new leader for the party and replace her with someone more decisive and uncompromising, like Swinney,
I’d trust Swinney as much as I’d trust Murrell.
@Breeks (9.31) –
Thanks for the link to that tweet.
It shows just how out of touch she is right now.
Just read the first fifty or so replies and the consensus is overwhelming (approx 9:1): delegate bug-related stuff to others and get on with pushing for independence right now.
Given the facts that the majority of Scots want to stay in the EU and also want independence restored, ending English rule, why are the Scottish Government doing nothing?
Seriously, what the f is going on with the SNP leadership? Here we have a golden opportunity, and what do they say? Not now Scotland, keep on campaigning, and remember to vote SNP. We’ll think about independence sometime later, maybe.
Does nobody in the SNP hierarchy have any political nous? Why are they not all on TV shouting about independence in the light of TEN successive polls showing an indy majority??
This is why Sturgeon MUST go, or be forced out. She is timid, and feart to do ANYTHING, which might damage her ‘media image’. It is abundantly clear that 100% in a poll could favour indy and still Nicolas would do nothing. All talk.
She is a great administrator, but has no backbone or ability to lead. Oh, sure she knows how to stab her former mentor in the back, but as to getting us independence nah, too difficult, too much effort needed.
Fighting indy supporters, instead of London, that’s our Nicola. An enemy of independence, a roadblock in our way.
She talks independence, but will do NOTHING.
A couple of months to save Scotland, and still she dithers and procrastinates. Toom tabard, Sturgeon. Like many others in Scotland’s history.
Don’t want to upset anybody, but my guess is that the SNP manifesto next year will have the title ‘Stronger for Scotland’. Again. Indy will be obliquely mentioned in a tiny paragraph, but loosely worded, so once re-elected ~the SNP government can continue to do nothing, claiming they need a ‘new mandate’.
Such utter b*llocks. It really is.
Robert -There is only one logical conclusion.
Sturgeon has no intention of doing anything about independence. She spends her days arguing that WM should extend the Furlough scheme. Essentially borrowing money to keep people in jobs. A thing that any country with borrowing powers could do.
Then she doesn’t do anything to create independence. Relying on the UK to help Scotland come out of the economic Covid crisis. Is fundamentally flawed. We will suffer years of decline after Covid, if we don’t get independence.
I just can’t be bothered playing her game anymore.
I’ve been seeing SNP tweets today (from today or from yesterday) in light of the latest poll e.g. from Nicola and Humza. It’s concerning that their message is the same. Concentrate on Covid right now. Build support for indy. A strong SNP vote in May will make it impossible for WM to deny us a referendum.
I very much appreciate this post from Rev giving a digestible (tweetable) snapshot of a way forward and which tackles most of the concerns expressed by either gradualists and by realists (i.e. most of the people who read this website):
a. you have to vote SNP if you want indy;
b. we’re concerned SNP are not focussed on indy so we might not vote for them/vote at all;
c. if you have a referendum without S.30 it could be challenged and so delayed or even stopped;
d. we need to keep soft yessers on board and grow support (so you give them the insurance that they can have a confirmation referendum after May)
So, now perhaps people realise (if they hadn’t before) why it’s imperative something changes with the inner circle in the SNP.
Can’t fault NS for focusing on Covid, its what all leaders need to be seen to be doing.
I do wish there was more movement on Independence though, there are plenty of channels for signals that could be given to the Yessers. Frustrated that these are not forthcoming.
The occasional shot in the arm from JC keeps me going.
I just don’t think the SNP leaders realise how dangerous this Tory government are.
It seems that it’s only us who are concerned with the impending disaster. What do the SNP think they will achieve by delaying independence. There is no tipping point for WM. We won’t get to 65% and they will cave in. They just change the rules of democracy.
We had a vote in 2014 , so you never have the right to another, period! That’s going to be their response until doomsday.
Personally I think 60% is probably peak indy support – pre referendum and pre campaign. We aren’t going to get 70% support outside a campaign.
The danger no is SNP complacency. They think they will stroll the election, they think indy support will only grow and they think the Tories will cave on the section 30.
Look at WM, look at the Tories. Does anyone seriously believe they care about democracy?
I agree with most of the postings this morning if is a cruel thing that the SN P when they set out their stall for Indy, they mean exactly that. To stall.
We continually miss every opportunity to strike whilst our irons are hot. This is not being led by strength. It is rather being led by indecision and uncertainty.
Bob Mack @10:37am. I don’t think the SNP is being “led” at all. You’re right, it’s stall, stall, stall.
She just loves the limelight
link to archive.is
@ Scot Finlayson on 15 October, 2020 at 9:55 am
“Acting on a tip-off”?
Indeed! The plot thickens! My guess is Murrell or Lesley Evans (or some other Civil Servant acting on her behalf/instructions).
I could never understand why the SNP would want to employ one of the creators of ‘The Vow’ who, other than that, has achieved relatively very little in life. Naw! Surely not? Silly sceptical old me eh?
__________
On another issue: Funny how in recent 2 – 3 days there’s been a school-of-thought on social media touting the ‘Sturgeon should be delegating the Covid gig” line. Many of us said similar away back when it all began.
It comes under the Health Ministers position so that’s who should be dealing with it. Instead Sturgeon seen it as a golden gift to promote herself & delay the pursuit of indy so she & Murrell could focus on covering their own arses in the Salmond scandal. Not a good look.
Salmond made a similar desperate gaff when he was in charge. When *Rangers were found out & went bust he couldn’t get to the gates of Ibrox quick enough to grab a self-promo. Spouting reassurances in front of TV cameras that “this club will not be going down” etc etc. Fiona Robertson was the Sports Minister at the time & it should have been her who made appearances &/or comments on the matter. They’ve now set an ugly dodgy precedent, or the sceptical among us might say a convenient precedent.
In reply to Scot Finlayson at 955am you ask
‘is Clegg still in Scotland havn`t heard from him for a while’
He has lived in Broughty Ferry for years and was appointed the Editor of the Courier last year. He was previously their Political Editor but left in 2012 for the Record.
And on the David Clegg tip-off my hunch would be Angus Robertson, he has previous when it comes to leaking about suspended/former colleagues.
Whoever it was it won’t be anyone like Murrell or a member of the CS. They’d never ‘dirty their hands’ as it were just in case it were ever rumbled.
Peter Murrell adept in steering clear of direct involvement that’s why his whatsapp messages surfacing is so interesting.
The longer the SNP holds fire on pushing for Independence, the more time they are giving the Tories to head them off at the pass.
I am confident, if they do have a pro-Independence majority in May 2020, by the end of the summer, the Tories will have closed Holyrood – they will have nothing else left to try.
So, move swiftly, don’t give them time to finalise and implement their plans. The Tories will never let us go, before the last barrel of oil is extracted from Scottish waters. They will bleed us dry rather than surrender control.
Scot Finlayson says:
15 October, 2020 at 9:55 am
`“David Clegg wrote in the Daily Record:
“Acting on a tip-off, we submitted questions to the Scottish Government on October 31 last year, in a bid to ascertain if any complaints had been made about Alex Salmond during his tenure as first minister.”
I’ve always thought that the ‘loose lips’ for the press possibly rested here:
From the Herald 17th Decemeber 2016:
“NICOLA Sturgeon’s top aide became involved in a story about
MP Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh being chased by the taxman,
according to a leaked email.
Liz Lloyd, the Chief of Staff to the First Minister, used
her government account to email the SNP press office at
Westminster within hours of the story breaking in two
tabloid newspapers.”
Cynical Highlander,
Nicola is being purposefully vague, there will be no date set by her but compare that with Alex Salmond who gave us all plenty of notice and intent.
The Edinburgh Agreement was signed on this day 15th of October 2012.
That was a government that was prepared to fight for Scotland, I’ll let you guess why things changed.
@Papko 11:43pm
‘So you are going to get a new leader for the party and replace her with someone more decisive and uncompromising, like Swinney, Cunningham ? or Cherry. And then in the remaining time till MAY, get the engine going full blast ( as the 2021 Elections will be a indyref)’
You have a point.
Those in a position to try and bring about change are sitting too comfortably. Meanwhile we wait. Always we wait. It’s not easy being Scottish. At least we learned at an early age that happiness isn’t part of the deal.
susanXX says:
15 October, 2020 at 10:42 am
Bob Mack @10:37am. I don’t think the SNP is being “led” at all. You’re right, it’s stall, stall, stall.
I see it as much worse than that.
True, it is stall, stall, stall the democracy, but the real and permanent damage to Scotland is already happening beneath the surface through the silent assassination of Scotland’s Constitution strength and sovereign integrity, and worse than that, it’s the SNP’s hands on the garrotte.
Scotland can endure, and then bounce back from the worst electoral reverse or defeat possible via the next available election or referendum, but the current ongoing colonial assault on Scotland’s popular sovereignty and Constitution has the potential to do irreparable long term damage to Scotland’s interests and standing.
That it’s happening on the SNP’s “watch”, (and isn’t that a contradiction in terms?), will be a bitter and enduring indictment upon the SNP.
They held the key to Scotland’s sovereign Independence within their grasp, and sat on their useless arses plotting conspiracies to hurt Alex Salmond, and giving free reign to the science denying Wokerati to exploit Scotland’s desire for Independence and use it as a carrier wave to establish their own disturbing agenda in government.
It’s beyond a disgrace. At least our betrayers in 1707 had to flee for their lives for their crimes against Scotland. This crop of tossers expects and demands your vote of approval.
Who could have leaked to Clegg (and may still be leaking to the media?
This from Craig Murray:
“The Salmond Affair indeed stinks to high heaven and no aspect of it stinks more than the role in steering the affair, throughout, of Liz Lloyd, Nicola Sturgeon’s Chief of Staff. Lloyd is also known to be personally friendly with David Clegg of the Daily Record who published what were claimed to be leaked details of one of the “allegations” against Salmond.”
link to craigmurray.org.uk
link to theguardian.com
However Clegg has views on Independence after covid. I haven’t read the article because I don’t give them money but it does look as if Clegg thinks it more likely – BUT he could be playing alongside the Murrells of course:-)
NS tells us not to be complacent. Aye, right.
What about the complacency that has seen Scotland dragged out of the EU against her will (contrary to repeated Blackford promises and her own grotesque coach tour)?
What about the complacency that does nothing in the face of imminent criminalisation of anything (like an independent Scotland) deemed to be a threat to the UK economy?
Looks like NewSNP and the Murrells have no issues with that? Looks like they agree that we should all just “get used to it”?
link to twitter.com
Reading through some tweets this morning Mr Wings, I think you should push for a ‘Vote Scotland out of UK’ referendum in rUK
@ Hatuey says:
15 October, 2020 at 12:35 am
Dangerfield is on to something;
“David Clegg wrote in the Daily Record:
“Acting on a tip-off, we submitted questions to the Scottish Government on October 31 last year, in a bid to ascertain if any complaints had been made about Alex Salmond during his tenure as first minister.””
“We must find out, and the inquiry must know, how it could be that David Clegg and the Daily Record knew something about these complaints on 31 October 2017 when, so we are told, no-one in the Scottish Government, up to and including Nicola Sturgeon, had any idea about them…”
link to gordondangerfield.com
One of these strands is going to be strand that ensnares them.
When can we expect to see the new materials supplied to the Inquiry?
—–
Working on the bases that people of Mr Dangerfield don’t ask questions unless they know (and can generally substantiate) the answer…
My guess would be, if perhaps the leak came from one of the complainers, and/or one of the ‘investigators’. Oh dear.
And was it not Liz Lloyd who was involved in some form of disclosure to the media with regards the SNP MP who now works on AS’s TV program – (sorry can’t remember her name). The complaint was to do with her old law firm and found to be groundless.
Socrates MacSporran,
I think it would be a tactical mistake by Westminster to close Holyrood, neuter it yes, but not shut it down.
Closing it would mean reverting back to what Margaret Thatcher deemed would be enough to gain Scottish independence, simply voting a majority of Scottish MPs who want independence.
In normal circumstances, in a FPTP this would be a breeze but these aren’t normal circumstances.
@Craig Murray says:
14 October, 2020 at 11:38 pm
“If the Murrells hang on, I wonder what weasel worded formulation the SNP manifesto will use to pretend they are going to do something about a referendum.”
Perhaps something on the lines of “once COVID has been destroyed and the economy is recovered we will definitely have a referendum.” ie once Hell freezes over…
@ Socrates MacSporran says:
15 October, 2020 at 11:03 am
The longer the SNP holds fire on pushing for Independence, the more time they are giving the Tories to head them off at the pass.
I am confident, if they do have a pro-Independence majority in May 2020, by the end of the summer, the Tories will have closed Holyrood – they will have nothing else left to try.
——–
I think the real danger date is 31/12/20 – from that point on, with what looks like being a no deal brexit – there will be no outside EU government to stay the hand of WM.
Already they are planning to take control of Scotland’s food resources. Being realistic about it, that will involve the army.
Information about same will be closed down via D notices.
And all of the above, is without the need for Civil Contingency Act implementation.
@Albaha, 6.42
Thanks for the posting that link to the Times article entitled
“No 10 steps up the charm offensive to save the Union”
It certainly is an offensive. The UK Government in Scotland steps forward to complete the deconstruction of the Scottish nation and facilitate the looting of our natural resources.
Re shifty, blink blink’s tweet, To my fellow @theSNP members – this level of support is hard earned but mustn’t be taken for granted. Stay focussed & independence will follow – I’ve never been more certain.
But our, my, immediate responsibility is to lead Scotland through COVID – right now, nothing matters more’
I think I would rather ‘deal’ with Covid with a Scottish National Health Service that has not been bundled up and sold to America in order moline the pockets of the Tory’s pals.
I think I would rather ‘deal’ with Covid with a sure food and medical supply, membership of 27 other EU countries, EU Human Rights and ECJ to appeal to, and a somewhat more ‘international’ approach to dealing with problems (including the economic fall out) of this magnitude.
I think we can do so much better than Boris.
@Daisy Walker
Please can you add the information about the enquiry from the Daily Record on 31 October 2017 connected with Alex Salmond to your timeline.
@Daisy Walker, 11.35
Put this tweet beside the Times article link to archive.is
What it makes me think of is the Captain of the Titanic continuing to go full speed ahead despite being told several times that there was an iceberg field in his path.
@ David F says:
15 October, 2020 at 8:10 am
@ Graeme and Daisy Walker
One of the things I’m going to do next time I get a chance to post at the top of a thread is beg Rev Stu to let you post the timeline as an ATL article.
It’s very difficult to read as a comment, and you can never be sure you have found the latest version.
As an ATL article everyone would always know where it was, and comments could be used to suggest additions, improvements and amendments.
I think it would also be good to have it reformatted into some kind of a proper spreadsheet, maybe with layers, to make it much easier to read.
.
Maybe you guys could back up my request.’
I have submitted it to the Rev, and not heard anything back (in fairness I think he’s busy). I also suspect it is not up to his very high standards.
I share your view about there being better formats, but if you are aware how computer ‘dum’ I am you would have to be kind – I know my limits.
If the Rev is reading this, and would rather utilise what I’ve provided and make it into his own. I’m totally fine with that. He’s had a lot more practise;)
Breastplate @ 11.17am
They will never go for a majority of pro-Independence Scottish MPs being a mandate for Independence. They will try the old: “No Government can be tied to a decision of a previous Government” line.
They will pauchle, subvert, cheat, waive the rules, go back on agreements, anything they can, to avoid Scotland becoming Independent.
They need us, the trouble is, now we know how much they need us, which makes it harder for them to keep lying. Not that that will stop them.
A Question re the Timeline.
When was it Marhie Black took the Adult/sex worker to the Primary School, and were there any local elections ongoing in that area at the time.
GOOD IDEA
Daisy Walker says:
15 October, 2020 at 11:45 am
@ David F says:
15 October, 2020 at 8:10 am
@ Graeme and Daisy Walker
One of the things I’m going to do next time I get a chance to post at the top of a thread is beg Rev Stu to let you post the timeline as an ATL article.
‘Breastplate @ 11.17am
They will never go for a majority of pro-Independence Scottish MPs being a mandate for Independence. They will try the old: “No Government can be tied to a decision of a previous Government” line.’
That is a very good point and one which highlights the need for a lawyer to register the illegality of the UK Internal Market Bill, under the rules of the Withdrawl Agreement, at the ECJ.
It blows the core function of the Treaty of Union into pieces.
Reference should then be made to the Claim of Rights, and to the multitude of electoral mandates we already have.
The “No Government can be tied to a decision of a previous Government” line’ holds no water, if by their Governments actions they have broken the treaty of union apart.
The Government at Holyrood then becomes the Parliament of the Sovereign People of Scotland.
Re Mhairi Black = she took ‘Flowjob’ to Glencoats Primary School on Thursday 20th February 2020.
Were there any local election campaigns going on in that area at the time?
Socrates MacSporran,
I agree that they will try anything and everything to keep hold of us but I still maintain it would be a tactical mistake on their part to shut down more difficult routes to independence leaving easier ones available. In theory at least.
Whether they claim as you say that a majority of Independence MPs is no longer enough (and I believe you are correct) that is another story.
@cirsium & others
The new viceroy’s office building and the parallel Scottish government being established represents not just a clear and present danger to Holyrood and the future of the current devolutionary settlement, but an existential threat to the independence movement.
The British nationalist project is unlikely to do anything as obvious or risky as seeking to close Holyrood down, or pick a fight by moving quickly to reduce its powers and/or water down its pretensions to represent a sovereign people.
Rather, it will depend on the well proven ability of fractious Scots to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by temporising. All the failing unionist project has to do after the Mat 2021 Holyrood election is keep saying “now is not the time” ad infinitum.
It won’t matter what percentage of vote the SNP or pro-independence parties get, how sweeping their victory or how crushing their majority. Until we as a people (and our otherwise thrawn representatives) have the courage to demand recognition of our much vaunted Claim of Right and popular sovereignty detailed in Stu Campbell’s “Bath Manifesto”, we will remain shackled to the rotting corpse of the union.
Sadly I’m pretty convinced we’ve already lost the opportunity to use the upcoming Holyrood election as a plebiscite: the gradualist wet-nat stanglehold on the movement is just too strong. I see next to no prospect of the SNP changing course (or being reformed) in that timescale, nor is there much sign of a viable alternative party.
That means those of us who oppose the current SNP line, those who want to see real progress towards independence, have some thinking to do and some work ahead.
We need an alternative.
if Daisy does publish her timeline as a separate article on Wings I suggest colour coding the events to help separate out the entangled strands and link separate pieces of evidence into a more coherent narrative that is more easily understood.
For example a black asterisk/bullet point for evidence of lack of progress in advancing Independence; a red one for “Woke” interventions, a yellow one for evidence of framing Alec Salmond and a purple one for lies.
Obviously Daisy can use any colours she likes.
Events could be marked by one or more coloured asterisks and some surprising associations could well emerge
From the conspiracy theory factory on the World Economic Forum…..or is it?
“Sooner than most anticipate, the work of professions as different as lawyers, financial analysts, doctors, journalists, accountants, insurance underwriters or librarians may be partly or completely automated…”
“The technology is progressing so fast that Kristian Hammond, cofounder of Narrative Science, a company specializing in automated narrative generation, forecasts that by the mid-2020s, 90% of news could be generated by an algorithm, most of it without any kind of human intervention (apart from the design of the algorithm, of course)”.
from Klaus Schwab..[The Fourth Industrial Revolution.]
The World Economic Forum has many agents and influencers including the heir to England’s throne and Devi Lalita Sridhar who has advised ScotGov on how to handle Covid-19.
The WEF doesn’t like ‘nationalism’. A spanner in the wheels of Globalism.
link to theunshackled.net
More of the same Brave New World stuff here.
link to off-guardian.org
Re Timeline – thanks for suggestions. I’ve added them in.
I’ve also added Tasmina and Michelle Thomson to it.
And with the benefit of hindsight. Is it not a funny thing that you had 2 very capable women, both working closely with AS, who were removed from the scene by a party supposedly keen to ensure women got equal ops.
In view of events, would it not have substantially weakened their argument that AS is a Sex pest, if those 2 had been working with him on a regular basis and could be witnesses to exemplar conduct.
Remove alies at an early stage to weaken your enemy, isolate them and deprive them of support.
Course it ‘could’ just be happenstance.
To all those people saying “next time I’m posting near the top of a thread…”:
Use the “Contact” button at the top of the page – then you don’t have to wait!
Also, @ Daisy Walker at 11.15 – see holymacmoses at 11.05 re Tasmina Akhmed Sheikh.
What would be handy – if updates to the timeline were emboldened, to save having to read the whole thing again to try to work out what the updates are.
At the next update, remove the bold from the previous updates.
@ Ben re colour coding the Timeline.
I tried, although it gets too complicated with more than 2 colours. I introduced Red for everything I thought would alert the Brit Nats, or be action taken by Brit Nats.
Unfortunately it does not translate when posting here.
I’m going to post today’s updated version to the Rev, rather than on here. I’m conscious that it is long and a difficult read. I am finding it useful to keep referring to it.
Thanks for all the feedback.
In reply to Daisy Walker at 1115 on Liz Lloyd and former MP Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh.
Liz Lloyd had no involvement in giving details to the media, she was involved in an email exchange ONCE it was in the papers, details below.
link to archive.is
On Tasmina, it wasn’t found to be groundless,she was found of wrongdoing and fined £3000. Was pretty murky, the misuse of a trust fund.
‘Former SNP MP Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh has been fined £3,000 after being found guilty of professional misconduct by a tribunal’
link to bbc.co.uk
Was speaking to a Rangers-aupporting unionist at work earlier. Voted mo and hates the idea of independence, oddly enough.
“That Alex Salmond’s an idiot. The hing aboot him is, he hud nae plan! They asked him whit currency we wide yaise n he didnae even ken!”
No point getting into an argument at work with somebody you have to see every day. My idea is this: have a website with every possible unionist naysaying question debunked, in simple, user-friendly language.
Have each section clearly marked currency, trade, EU membership, etc, and have a frequently asked questions section at the start for quick access. That way you can go to the answer to the query quickly and easily, show them it, and show them the rigorously-checked links referenced for information.
It might not convince some people, but it would certainly put their gas at a peep, because they usually just regurgitate some half-chewed unionist soundbite slogan they picked up on the unionist media. For any new undecided and would-be yessers, it would be a good primer as to all the arguments – surely by now we know them already- and some of us, myself included, would also learn something, and be able to quickly and easily answer questions, or direct a fence-sitter, to answers in a non-confrontational fashion.
Just a thought, but the use of the net is so ubiquitous and easy it would definitely be a great debate-enhancing tool. And if such a site already exists, a centralised, non-divisive resource where individual writer and researcher egos are subsumed for the greater good, well, I apologise, and would like to be directed to it.
Daisy Walker says:
15 October, 2020 at 12:00 pm
Re Mhairi Black = she took ‘Flowjob’ to Glencoats Primary School on Thursday 20th February 2020.
Were there any local election campaigns going on in that area at the time?
Re the above – I can’t find any local election campaigns, however, worth noting there were 3 polls showing increased support for Indy, and a certain Reverend had floated the idea of a Wings Party in order to maximise the List vote.
Make of that what you will. Still wonder if there were any local elections though.
The latest cryptic update from Osama Saeed Bhutta
link to twitter.com
Wonder how ‘the issue will be sorted’ and where he is hearing the ‘noises’ from, yet another of his hints he’s got inside access, which of course he does, however the parading of it seems very wrong.
It’s quite simple peeps. The NEC haven’t a clue about how to support ethical politics or democracy, and the Scottish legal establishment are predominantly BritNat in outlook, so are hostile towards the Natural law and natural justice. Hell will freeze over before this shower will get anywhere near empowering Scots to access our human rights and the benefits of democracy.
Scots will always be Westminster’s slaves until we can find leadership that places the law above politics. We also need a legal establishment that isn’t intensely narrow and bigoted in outlook, and which is capable of supporting universal principles of law rather than the parochialism of Parliamentary sovereignty. That will only be possible following our self-determination though, which means our legal Establishment has a vested interest in subourdinating Scottish culture to the populist demands of right-wing and xenophobic English nationalism.
So I hope the Lord Advocate appreciates I’ve not finished handing him his arse yet. ;(
link to core.ac.uk
Nicola Sturgeon claims that nothing matters more than “dealing” with Covid-19.
Meanwhile the National Records of Scotland published the following:
Deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) in Scotland
Last update: 14 October 2020
Next update: 11 November 2020
NRS have published 19 weekly reports containing analysis of the impact and spread of COVID-19 related deaths across Scotland. This publication was introduced to provide clear and accessible official statistics delivering headline figures and more detailed analyses.
As the number of deaths from all causes have returned to average levels and the weekly counts of deaths involving COVID-19 are low, NRS has stopped publishing a full report on a weekly basis.
@ Abalha says:
15 October, 2020 at 1:42 pm
The latest cryptic update from Osama Saeed Bhutta
link to twitter.com
Wonder how ‘the issue will be sorted’ and where he is hearing the ‘noises’ from, yet another of his hints he’s got inside access, which of course he does, however the parading of it seems very wrong.
Mr Bhutta’s continued presentation of himself as CANDIDATE – would appear to be getting him on very thin legal ice. Below is the legislation relating to the legal definition of electoral Candidate (and the short version is, if you are an existing MP/MSP and an election is called, or you declare / register as an Independent Candidate, or a party declare you as one).
By continuing to present himself as an official candidate (who has been done down by procedures) he is making false statement which would appear to be for the purpose of having affect on other Candidates…..
Representation of Peoples Act 1983
106
False statements as to candidates.
(1)
A person who, or any director of any body or association corporate which—
(a)
before or during an election,
(b)
for the purpose of affecting the return of any candidate at the election,
makes or publishes any false statement of fact in relation to the candidate’s personal character or conduct shall be guilty of an illegal practice, unless he can show that he had reasonable grounds for believing, and did believe, that statement to be true.
Meaning of candidate.
(1)
References to a candidate in this Part of this Act shall be construed in accordance with this section (except where the context otherwise requires).
(2)
A person becomes a candidate at a parliamentary election—
(a)
on the date of—
(i)
the dissolution of Parliament, or
(ii)
in the case of a by-election, the occurrence of the vacancy,
in consequence of which the writ for the election is issued if on or before that date he is declared by himself (as an Independent candidate) or by others to be a candidate at the election, and
(b)
otherwise, on the day on which he is so declared by himself or by others or on which he is nominated as a candidate at the election (whichever is the earlier).
(3)
A person becomes a candidate at an election under the local government Act—
(a)
on the last day for publication of notice of the election if on or before that day he is declared by himself or by others to be a candidate at the election, and
(b)
otherwise, on the day on which he is so declared by himself or by others or on which he is nominated as a candidate at the election (whichever is the earlier),
or, in the case of a person included in a list of candidates submitted by a registered political party in connection with an election of the London members of the London Assembly at an ordinary election, on the day on which the list is submitted by the party.]
Re Mr Bhutta, of course if there is any dubiety re the above interpretation, I’m sure his cousin, the JUSTICE MINISTER Yousuf, will be able to rustle up some legal advice to clarify same.
In reply to Daisy Walker, yes all seems very brazen.
Of course he says he’s given up his job at Amnesty to do this, one assumes he reckoned he would win and perhaps that
was looking less certain hence all this hullabaloo, don’t know for sure but …
To amplify Stu’s “Declaration of Bath”, how about the following as a starter for ten to ask all prospective pro-independence MSPs (and/or MPs) to affirm before May 2020:
“In accordance with our ancestral Claim of Right and the primacy of popular sovereignty as confirmed by our forebears in the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 we affirm that the Scottish people are sovereign.
We hereby declare and assert the irrevocable preeminence of Scotland’s parliament in all decisions relating to the fundamental rights, prerogatives and constitutional future of the Scottish nation.
Acting on the express will of the Scottish people by majority vote at any election, their representatives are empowered to take all necessary steps to protect, promote and strengthen that sovereignty.
Accordingly, any parliamentary majority representing the majority of voters in a General Election elected on a platform in favour of the exercise of self-determination is to be considered:
– an automatic mandate to withdraw from the Treaty Of Union,
– the declaration that Scotland is once more an independent state; and
– a request to the international community for recognition in accordance with the UN Charter guaranteeing the right of all peoples to self-determination.”
Andy Ellis @ 5.48pm YES Andy VERY well put, this should be copied pasted and emailed to EVERY SNP MP & MSP
Brilliant. Very succinct and nail on head. But unfortunately completely redundant. I’m sure you of all people can see the delicious irony – although it’s probably rather bitter at the moment. Maybe in time.
You might have carried the day with the ‘declaration’ had circumstances permitted, but I fear you have underestimated the impact this virus outbreak will have on every aspect of our lives – unless we act in unity and soon.
I supported Scottish independence only as it would herald the break-up of the British Establishment. Scotland is a vital cornerstone and inexorably intertwined in the fabric of Westminster, the aristocracy and the City. Independence – with the establishment of a Central Bank and Scottish currency would have brought its demise. I would have welcomed that – as you might – whilst also recognising the implications for our neighbours in England and Wales.
That would have made a significant impact. There would be greater polarisation and division, particularly from the media shills – but unless there was a similar enlightenment south of the Border and a movement to expunge the status quo, any path to a settled independent Scotland would be wrocht with difficulty.
That said, it would still have been worthwhile.
Covid has changed all that. We are all in this together wherever we live on this island. Everything has changed, Stuart – absolutely everything.
Have a look out your window tonight in Bath. These are your neighbours. It doesn’t matter what their religion, politics, gender, race or place of birth is now – only that they are your neighbours and you will rely on each other absolutely in the all that follows. It’s the same wherever we live right now.
Perhaps you could use your undoubted talents and refocus in a different direction, once the mists have cleared. This island needs a government of national unity – something we can all subscribe to – for the time being. Perhaps you can try and adapt your declaration for a wider audience.
You might be surprised at the reaction.
All the best.
Great article rev I s a yes from me.
.
Stuart,
This is one of the finest, most eloquent and thoughtful posts you have ever made.
Though it is near-impossible to imagine Nicola Sturgeon uttering the words you have written. Just as she has distanced her narcissistic self from the majority of YES marches, she is an over-promoted office manager and one who has been found out as a dissembling stooge.
I miss Alex Salmond. He is, without doubt, the best politician in these islands in all of our lifetimes. With a little nostalgia, I went back six years and watched his farewell speech…
link to m.youtube.com
On that day, part of what hit me was a clip of Geoff Aberdein in tears at his old boss resigning.
On this day watching that six year old video, what hit me was the honesty from Alex Salmond in his implicit direction that we (and he) would be safe in the hands of Nicola Sturgeon. Oh how different things have turned out.
That backstabbing schemer and her beard of a husband have a lot to answer for.
Like many here, I watch Alec’s weekly show on RT. He seems happier and more relaxed in his new role than at any time through the Hell he has endured these past few years with those perjuring amadans, all of whom tried to stitch-up our first SNP First Minister.
Here’s the thing, and Stuart, I understand you speak with Alec from time to time. Might you devine an answer please?
——-> I get the impression Alex Salmond is NOT coming back to frontline politics. Ever.
Something in his body language and the nuanced turn of phrase when he presents his television programme.
If Alex has left frontline politics for good, NO DECENT HUMAN BEING could criticise that decision. But it leaves me fearful.
The mainstream media are strangely supportive of Nicola Sturgeon. They almost support her being at 56% in the polls. When I see that, all I see is the fact we are stuck with an MI5 sleeper within the SNP. Sturgeon is BORIS Johnson’s last Viceroy of England’s last Colony.
Margo MacDonald knew there were high level plants in the ranks of the SNP.
But it is worse than just backstabbing tractors.
At Barnhill on the Island of Jura, I had the privilege of looking after the place where George Orwell wrote the iconic novel: 1984.
I fear that Sturgeon McWoke and her pet political Labrador Humza Yousaf will bring in the Hate Crime Act 2022 and that will be the very worst parts of 1984 writ large. Scotland will be the first western civilisation where 1984 levels of control will be as harmful as Edward Longshanks.
In 2020, just as fate cancelled the 700 year YES march past Arbroath Abbey, it may well be another 700 years until we get anywhere near the levers of power and regaining our Independence from what Ewan MacGregor rightly termed “effete ar$eholes” from the south who have colonised us.
History has so very few political leaders of the calibre of Alex Salmond. If he really has retired for good, methinks very few brave souls are around to fill his place.
@Mark Russell
What a profoundly odd response! The world doesn’t stop due to COVID-19. As bad as it is, if the pandemic shows is anything surely it is the necessity for us to be in control of our own destiny as a small, social Democratic state?
Using the current crisis as a cri de coeur for having a group hug and realising we are all in this together I’d desperately unconvincing. Our own government lacks the wit or the will to close our borders as even the Welsh assembly has done. Scotland may have fared and performed slightly better than England during the crisis, but imagine how much better we could have performed if we’d been independent and not hog tied by British nationalist incompetence?
How many thousand Scots would be alive today if we hadn’t voted No in 2014?
The crisis proves without a shadow of doubt the wisdom of becoming independent, not the wisdom of staying in a broken union.
I just don’t think this would work, it sounds very reckless and lead to uncertainty/instability – and will certainly get attacked as such.
I think one of the lessons of 2014 is that such attacks can work – I just don’t think it is coincidence that independence becomes the majority opinion at a time when the British state appears more reckless and unstable than ever, while Scotland is governed by a First Minister that (whatever you think about her lying to the parliament) clearly *appears to be* cautious and sensible.
I really think there are lots of people that feel safe with NS’s approach to independence, but that would be turned off by what looks a bit like a Catalan approach.
More importantly, can we really be *certain* that the different approach that you advocate will more likely lead to independence?
I think the answer to that is a no, and given that NS’ approach has enabled independence to become the majority opinion, I am just not convinced now is the time to change course…
@Christian Schmidt
You ignore a number of salient points in what I would suggest is a rose tinted view of reality.
There is little point gaining a majority on the back of a gradualist “wet-nat” manifesto if you lose the confidence of a section of your core support. Tacking to the centre may have gotten us to the heady heights of 58% in the polls, but it means precisely nothing if the party has no appetite to force a vote and meekly accepts that the only feasible route to indy is with Westminster’s gracious permission. You and the newly recruited “soft No” voters may be content to wait a real generation for the next indyref, but don’t expect very many others to agree with you!
The proposal above is NOT analogous to the Catalan approach, however much gradualists in the party like Pete Wishart caricature it as such. You appear to want to have your cake and eat it: on the one hand you laud the achievement of majority support, on the other you ignore the overwhelming majorities which also suggest Scots feel it is entirely a matter for Holyrood how often and when we vote. Why do you find the majority in one case definitive and supportive of the gradualists line, while ignoring the majority which supports a firmer line on our rights?
There is no certainty in either scenario. Demanding certainty is a recipe for stasis, which is of course what many of us suspect the stodgy, managerialist pseudo devolutionists in the SNP would actually settle for: far easier to be a big fish in a small pond than actually campaign to get us the hell out of this bin fire eh?
It is arguably much more reckless to propose doing nothing until new are “allowed” a vote given the hard brexit looming, than to force the issue. Sturgeon is not the SNP. The SNP is not Scotland. Whatever her talents, much of the increase in support for indy cannot reasonably be attributed to her personally, rather it is a function of the piss poor standard of opposition both in Holyrood and Westminster, and widespread revulsion at brexit and the incompetence of the Tory government handling that and the Covid crisis.
Any ‘creative'(vomitous term) getting a grant from the Tories to create propagandist art…better hand back the grants they get from the SNP to create propagandist art. 🙂
link to thenational.scot
[…] October 14, 2020 admin 0 View 0 Comments […]
@ Daisy Walker at 1:36 pm
I was certain it was about Kilbarchan/Howwood/Johnstone
@Andy Ellis
Had Scotland voted for and achieved independence in 2014 where would we be now?
Even assuming there was a friendly divorce from the UK and membership of the EU within the last six years – we would be in a greater mess than we presently are. Just think of all the additional difficulties we would face presently – with freedom of movement and access to food and medicines for starters.
I detest the Westminster cabal and what they truly represent, but out only hope presently is to hold out a hand of friendship to the people of England and Wales – not the British Establishment – and try and work out a collective way forward.
There are crazed lunatics in every corner of these islands – but they are very much a minority. The vast majority of people are just like you and me – they don’t want to change the world; they just want to enjoy it and share their experiences.
I live in Lancashire and out of all my friends down here, only the ex-pat Scots are against independence; most if not all the other nationalities would be perfectly happy to see the end of the Union – for a variety of reasons. Hey Ho – but at this moment in time, it would be a catastrophe.
We’re like a football team cursed with a shit manager whose team selection in made by the owners that nobody knows. We have a world cup winning side in the squad, but the idiots keep picking half a dozen knobheads who only crave personal glory and don’t play as a team. The most important game of our lives in next and if we are to win, we have to pick our own team. That means standing down the manager, owners and prima donnas.
Respectfully, that is what we must do. Scotland isn’t just an equal partner in the union, it must take the lead when required. The old union is finished but another one is essential for now. Change the focus.
@Mark Russell
We’d be an independent nation state inside the EU looking on aghast as little Britain imploded, enjoying the support of our EU partners in much the same way our Irish cousins do. We’d also have been able to ensure thousands of our fellow countrymen didn’t die from Covid as a result of the rank stupidity of the British nationalists in Westminster refusing to take timely action.
I spent 25 year in England until 2017 bud, I know what it is like. My wife is English and supports independence. My grandmother was English and I have lots of family there. Many of them support Scottish independence too, but some are fully paid up brexit voting UKIP types.
The vast majority of English folk know little and care even less about Scotland: they may have a vague affection for the concept of the union and the concept of “Britain”, but all too often Britain essentially = England. In the mind of most English folk they are one and the same, that’s exactly why English nationalism isn’t really “a thing”, or to be more exact it’s only popular amongst the disreputable far right who have managed to harness Englishness to their disreputable charabanc.
As far as I’ve seen there is no such thing as English civic nationalism.
This isn’t the time for rose tinted “lets have a group hug and pull together, there’s more that unites us than divides us” wishful thinking. It is in my view considerably more likely we’d be in a better place economically and socially now if we’d voted Yes in 2014. We’d certainly find ourselves better off 5 or 10 years from now if we bite the bullet and take our independence soon, rather than remain shackled to the rotting corpse of British nationalism and the dwindling hard core of Scots unionists.
New union my arse. I want to drive a stake through the black heart of the current union and would man a barricade before I’d see some new one imposed on the woo-woo premise that it’s necessary because of Covid.
I’m sorry you had that experience. You may have your barricades, for all the good they will do.
All the best.
@ Stonefree
‘stonefree says:
16 October, 2020 at 4:16 pm
@ Daisy Walker at 1:36 pm
I was certain it was about Kilbarchan/Howwood/Johnstone’
Forgive my ignorance – are these wards, or candidates for a certain ward?
The thing that still concerns me about “declaring UDI” is that Westminster would still hold the purse strings and be very reluctant to let them go.
Unless there were some way in which we could quickly gain control over the money, we could be bankrupt in days. Is there some way round this?
@Daisy Walker said on 14 October, 2020 at 11:53 pm
“This Manifesto Policy needs a Name”.
and asked for suggestions.
1314 is a date not to forget!
1314 is, by Re Stu’s counting, the number of characters in the Policy.
The letters of Plan A, Plan B, Plan C etc remind of some controversial alphabet females who endangered the freedom of, arguably, the greatest Scottish Anchorman since The Bruce!
Why not use numbers instead?
“Plan 1314” is another suggestion for the name of the Manifesto Policy
On reflection:-
“Plan 1314” is best re-named “Plan 2021” !
[unless the Holyrood election can be brought forward to 2020 in which case the new plan name would be “Plan 2020”]
[…] you agree with “Plan B” or not, claiming it “barely exists” is embarrassing. It’s an enormously simple and clear plan which can be fitted into a single […]
This article, will; be seen many years from now as very important. It expresses exactly what many, many SNP supporters wish to see.
But, sadly, the SNP is run and inhabited by cowards and careerists, so such a manifesto will never be seen. Too busy playing their political games, dilly dallying, whilst using the refusal of a section 30 as an excuse to do nothing.
My best guess is, the slogan for the SNP in May 2021, will be along the lines of that old favourits ‘stronger for Scotland’.
Independence is something the SNP like to mutter about now and then, but actually do it? Nah, that requires leadership and courage, both of which the SNP do not currently have.
Nicola Sturgeon is 50, and will no doubt with her husband look to retire soon, or move on to something else. She isn’t going to push for independence, not now, not ever.
For this, and for allowing Scotland to be forcibly removed from the EU against its wishes, she and the SNP will never be forgiven.
[…] There is a vast universe of difference between Scotland’s newly-elected First Minister being sent to Westminster on 7 May with a mandate to beg for a referendum yet again (a position which clearly implies Westminster’s right to refuse), and them being sent to Westminster with an unequivocal, internationally-recognisable democratic mandate to negotiate the terms of independence. […]
If it helps, I used to be cynical about your plan.
Not. any. more.