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Wings Over Scotland

The Cabaret Voltaire

Posted on July 29, 2020 by

In the light of several news stories today, we thought it’d be useful to keep a record of which organisations and individuals had now publicly expressed strong reservations or outright opposition to the Scottish Government’s alarming and deeply illiberal proposed new Hate Crime Bill, and which had expressed support.

This list will be updated as required.


– The Scottish Police Federation (representing rank-and-file officers)

– The Law Society Of Scotland

– The Faculty Of Advocates (trade body of Scotland’s most senior lawyers)

– The Senators Of The Colleges Of Justice (trade body of senior judges)

– BBC Scotland

– Scottish PEN (authors’ free-speech advocacy group)

– The Free Speech Union

– Free To Disagree (free speech advocacy group)

– Index On Censorship (free speech advocacy group)

– The Catholic Church

– The Free Church Of Scotland

 – The Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches

– The Orange Order

– Call It Out (Irish/Catholic pressure group)

– The Christian Institute

– The National Secular Society

– Humanist Society Scotland

– Murray Blackburn Mackenzie (feminist policy thinktank)

– Woman’s Place UK (feminist group)

– ForWomen.Scot (feminist group)

– LGB Alliance (lesbian, gay and bisexual rights group)

– The Scottish Newspaper Society

– The News Media Association

– The Society Of Editors

– Andrew Tickell (SNP member, law lecturer and columnist for The National)

– Stephen Daisley (columnist for the Daily Mail)

– Andrew Tettenborn (Chair in Law, Swansea University)

– Academics For Academic Freedom

Numerous pro-independence and other cultural figures

– Jim Sillars (former SNP deputy leader)

(We should also note for completeness the opposition of Scottish Labour and the Scottish Conservatives, though as they reflexively oppose pretty much everything the Scottish Government does that carries rather less noteworthiness.)



– The Scottish Government

– Bemis Scotland (largely funded by the Scottish Government)

– Victim Support Scotland (almost wholly funded by the Scottish Government)

And that’s all we’ve got so far.


Many readers of Wings will of course instinctively find themselves deeply comfortable with any proposal which upsets the Orange Order and the Daily Mail. But we’d suggest that any issue that manages to unite the Orange Order AND the Catholic Church AND the National Secular Society AND Humanist Society Scotland AND feminists AND loyal SNP columnists AND legal academics AND lawyers AND the police in opposition to it might just be a little bit dodgy, to put it delicately.

Some particularly dim individuals have attempted to draw a comparison between the proposed law and the now-repealed Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act, which this site – along with the vast majority of the Scottish public – supported.

It should certainly be acknowledged that there are similarities in the striking technical incompetence with which both bills have been drafted (something that’s becoming an all too predictable trademark of any controversial Scottish Government legislation, as illustrated by the state of limbo currently surrounding the Named Person bill and gender reform proposals, which in both cases has dragged on for years).

Otherwise, though, the analogy is totally facile. This bill has massive and far-reaching implications not merely for public discourse but for all future lawmaking. The minister responsible has admitted, terrifyingly albeit accidentally, that it could be used against legitimate criticism of Scottish Government policy, should anyone arbitrarily deem that criticism “abusive” or “likely” – even unintentionally – “to stir up hatred”.

But nobody at Ibrox was attempting to initiate a serious policy debate over whether it was socially beneficial for citizens to wade up to their knees in Fenian blood or not when they launched into another lusty chorus of “The Billy Boys”. Nobody at Parkhead was singing “Roll Of Honour” because they were trying to open a constructive dialogue over the merits or otherwise of the IRA’s justification for the murder of civilians.

Both sides were simply attempting to goad the other into a violent reaction, and the misuse of free speech to incite violence or injury has ALWAYS quite properly been an offence (most commonly characterised as “shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre”). The intention of the OBFA, however haplessly-executed, was to define that offence MORE precisely and specifically for certain circumstances, not less.

The Hate Crime Bill, on the other hand, potentially criminalises just about any piece of literature, any song, any play, any stand-up comedy act, any movie or any TV series ever published or performed anywhere in the world, on the basis of vague, subjective and arbitrary definitions wide open to malicious abuse (as highlighted by the Scottish Police Federation in the quote pictured at the top of this article).

It seeks, in short, to enshrine “cancel culture” (which is currently imposed largely by organisational capture or mob intimidation) in law and make it far easier for anyone claiming to be “offended” to not only suppress any opinions they don’t like, but to have those expressing such opinions imprisoned.

It’s Mary Whitehouse’s wildest dreams come true. It is by far the worst piece of law ever proposed in the Scottish Parliament, and this site is glad to both record, and add its voice to, the long list of those from every corner of the political spectrum saying so.

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  1. 22 09 20 13:22

    Compulsory conciliation –

268 to “The Cabaret Voltaire”

  1. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Some may suggest that the Scottish government has mislaid the plot somewhat but I couldn’t possibly comment.

    (Hope that’s safe enough.)

  2. Bob Costello says:

    The problem is Brian, that they do not have the inclination nor the ability to find it again

  3. Brotyboy says:

    I’m with Stephen Fry on someone saying ‘I’m offended by that.’

    ‘Well so fucking what?’

  4. Milady says:

    I agree with Brian Doonthetoon. Their track record on the drafting of good law isn’t the best anyway but in this the Scottish Government has both lost the plot and jumped the shark.

  5. susan says:

    Valuable overview Stu. More and more the SNP are showing themselves untrustworthy. Authoritarianism by the back door.

  6. Polly says:


  7. Tony Little says:

    Wearing my tinfoil hat, I do wonder who the “Advisors” to the government are, what their past history is, what their real agenda is, and whether this is one of Baldrick’s cunning plans to make the SNP seem to be some sort of potential totalitarian regime, so a good reason NOT to have independence?

    Or have I been in self-isoltaion too long?

  8. Vivian O'Blivion says:

    Weaponising identity politics is the preferred method of distraction these days. Terribly de rigueur old chap.

  9. David Rodgers says:

    What would George Orwell think about this proposed law? Maybe he would think that ‘1984’ really has come true. Sad to say this bill does not bode well for an indy Scotland.

  10. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Hear hear Rev.

  11. Karmanaut says:

    Completely agree. The bill is horrific. If the relentless (mostly unwarranted) attacks against OBFA ended that bill, then I hope this bill, which is going to be savaged from all sides, is scrapped at record speed.

  12. Frank Waring says:

    Promoting a badly-framed and deeply objectionable new law, is just the sort of thing that an ‘agent of influence’ would do.
    Just saying…….

  13. Bob Mack says:

    I would give an opinion ,but in and few months I might be answerable for it in a court of law.

    Well after all seems the Government enjoy retrospective prosecutions. Don’t they Alex?

  14. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    I think it’s quite sad, without engaging in the SNP bad stuff, the party has a very important function to complete, the function is independence nothing else.

    They must concentrate everything on this.

    This other frankly madness must be put aside until after independence when we will have time to consider who to sack. Ridding ourselves of the daft folk who thought up such nonsense is the only way to deal with this.

  15. Breastplate says:

    Tony Little,
    I’m pretty certain that the SNP strategists are in need of a good boot up the arse….metaphorically speaking of course. Oh wait, I think that might still get me locked up. Hmmm.

  16. Robert Graham says:

    if you believe there is trouble over the horizon then the trouble being the ( holyrood inquiry into the Alex Salmond ballsup )

    It might be a good idea not to invite even more trouble just a thought, not content with disregarding this obvious problem they intend compounding matters with the addition of the GRA mess .

    sometimes it’s better to stop bloody digging the hole your in .

    Really intelligent fighting three battles at once and with Bawjaws sitting waiting to pounce what could go wrong

  17. Samuel says:

    One more for your list who oppose it –

  18. Douglas says:

    Completely agree:
    The bill criminalises both the unintentional and the the intended but harmless

    Note: I don’t think Andrew Tickell supports the bill but he did tweet that he thought the fears about it overblown

  19. Sue Varley says:

    That is some list of opposition, glad to see the Police Federation have added there name to it.

    How did it all go so wrong, so fast? Were the signs of this lunacy to seen before Brexit and most of us missed it? Or is it diversionary tactics to hide the ineptitude or unwillingness to progress independence, since Scotland decisively rejected what England narrowly approved?

  20. mike cassidy says:

    My inner naughty step is in favour of this

    Cos we all know the direction from which the bill is coming.

    But the bill itself is non-directional.

    Those who might want to have criminal charges brought against those who say, for example

    Men cannot become women

    Will have to accept that there will be those who are offended by the claim

    Men can become women

    There are some SNP mps and msps who would be on dodgy ground if this bill becomes law

    Goose and gander and all that

  21. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I don’t think Andrew Tickell supports the bill but he did tweet that he thought the fears about it overblown”

    I’ve read his full submission, which is accurately summarised in that National column. He makes plain that he shares the concerns over the “stirring up” proposals and does not support the bill as drafted, even if he thinks some criticism has been excessive.

  22. Clapper57 says:

    I can see, as I am sure others can too, that this is going to be exploited and abused which makes it kinda redundant..of course the question is who will exploit and abuse it….the ones who instigated it or those who will find a way to silence their supposed ‘enemies’ as in ‘Others’ or are they both the same?..

    ..and so as a Bill it should really be a non starter … a civilised society….where we should be able , if decent, to self discipline and temper our opinions but more importantly challenge those who cannot.

    I wonder how many GREY areas there will be… this going to be applied with the proviso of ‘using discretion’ in certain areas/instances….

    Call me old fashioned but I have found I can quite easily ascertain when someone is being hateful for the sake of being hateful and whether it be online , face to face, a political platform or via a media platform I have a choice to ignore or call them out… is MY RIGHT to do via Freedom of Speech.

    I mean one only needs to look at Twitter to see cancel culture being applied….not to all though….oh no…..but there is an active and thriving campaign being orchestrated by the TRANS rights mob to close down specific accounts and thus define them as committing a ‘Hate Crime’ against something which seems to have only become fashionable to support recently….I mean how long have people been transitioning … this is a classic example of shutting down the ‘opposition’…..while the oppressor is free to promote their faux cause minus any dissent.

    So really after all of the sheeite that has gone down over the last six years where the lies promoted by unscrupulous individuals including politicians and where they still walk free and unpunished… we, via the SNP Scottish Government, have now reached a point where ordinary people are to be gagged or risk imprisonment by others who cry ‘offended’ and whose motives may be driven by self interest…..and all of this while still in the UKnotOK …..what a time to be alive…..or rather NOT.

    If I have the wrong end of the stick on this then in my defence it is because I cannot keep up with a never ending list of proposed BAD policies and bills….unconnected to the SNP’s raison d’etre …that is gaining Independence.

  23. Stuart MacKay says:

    mike cassidy

    But then there is the ever present “not in the public interest” – get out of jail free card that gets selectively played. We’ve all seen how that ends up.

  24. Polly says:

    Sorry O/T so soon

    But for anyone interested break up of UK discussed

  25. Harry mcaye says:

    It’s almost as if the SNP top brass don’t want a thumping majority next year and the pressures one would bring. As it stands, I won’t be voting for them (and I’ve delivered thousands of leaflets for them). Can you spoil vote 1 but vote for your favoured list candidate?

  26. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Can you spoil vote 1 but vote for your favoured list candidate?”

    Yes you can. (Well, you vote for a PARTY on the list, not a CANDIDATE, but you’re perfectly entitled not to vote on the constituency ballot and only vote on the list ballot.)

  27. Effijy says:

    SNP Leadership no longer communicating with the Mothership.

    If we can achieve Independence in-spite of them, they really are a party
    That is finished. You couldn’t do anything but laugh at their policies.

  28. ScottieDog says:

    “Can you spoil vote 1 but vote for your favoured list candidate?”

    Crossed my mind too.

  29. Phydaux says:

    Brilliant, a tsunami of outrage and outright condemnation from all and sundry. If Humza Yousaf, Cabinet Secretary for Justice without any legal qualifications, doesn’t ditch this appalling Bill, I am done with the SNP. Justice is a vital part of any democracy. As highlighted by Stuart’s recent articles, our justice system is neither fair nor just and is guided by political expediency and self-interest, in the service of power.

    The article about Leslie Evans delaying tactics in supplying documentation to the Parliamentary Inquiry re Alex Salmond is unsurprising to me. Is she still on a “ war “ footing with regard to the spectacular failure to destroy AS? Did the £500,000 costs to the tax payers deprive others of much needed public money? The public have a right to know, sooner rather than later. Time makes no difference to the truth.

  30. Willie Hogg says:

    I had expected that the SNP would split and join with others into an array of parties across the spectrum, after independence. The failure in 2014 has precipitated the transformation of the SNP into a proto social Democratic Party, but NS has allowed a bunch of nutters to control it. The Offending behaviour legislation could be stopped by reforming the party or more easily by electing a king maker party on the list. The latter would also satisfy those of us who can’t support the social democratic SNP and pave the way for pluralism post independence.

  31. Willie says:

    When you look at the of those opposed to the Bill you realise just how completely and utterly out of touch the SNP are!

    Ultimately, this Bill, if enacted and together with the lack of commitment to independence will be the undoing of the SNP. Like the utter destruction of New Labour public support could transfer from the SNP very quickly.

    Ireland’s Home Rule Party found that out just over a hundred years ago, and of course the aforementioned Labour Party in Scotland found out exactly what an electoral routing is. Anyway, things can change.

    The SNP direction can change and if it does then good. If not however, there are more than enough people to ensure that the bloated and comfortable who currently run the party will be left behind in the wreckage of a once great party.

    Well done Rev for pulling together this list. It certainly reinforces how out of touch the SNP leadership is.

  32. Scozzie says:

    I just don’t get this Hate Crime Bill at all.
    If you have the right to feel offended by my speech then I have the right to offend – can’t have one without the other.

    Feeling offended is so subjective. How do you qualify it in law?

    IMO our current laws on hate crime seem more that adequate.

    What a bloody circus!

  33. Stoker says:

    Quote from the article above:

    “It’s Mary Whitehouse’s wildest dreams come true. It is by far the worst piece of law ever proposed in the Scottish Parliament,”

    Of that there can be no doubt whatsoever but yet, like some twat on the previous thread who to save his blushes I’ll refrain from naming, there are those who will sycophantically drool about how we’re all trying to split the Indy movement blah blah blah.

    REALLY? I’d say the SNP have been doing a damned good job of that themselves over the past half-dozen years or so.

  34. James says:

    If the predicted good SNP election results are damaged/destroyed by people not voting for them (in the constituency ballot) or by a giant public rift/uproar via the Salmond stitch-up enquiry where does that get us, exactly? Jackson Carcrash for FM, anyone?

    To all the posters here saying ‘I cancelled my membership’ –
    SNP policies can only be changed from within and/or challenged in the right way by indy list MSP’s from new parties.

    If the SNP don’t retain power we’re done for anyway. Everyone who wants independence must still cast their constituency vote SNP, get them back in and if you want policy changes then do it via internal processes. (Or am I missing something?)

  35. Craig Murray says:


    The £500,000 is just the start of it. You have 22 policemen for 4 years (and remember the Alex Salmond team is still operating in Police Scotland), you have all the civil servants in the illegal process, you have the civil servants running the judicial review, then you have the lawyers and court costs from both the High Court and the Court of Session, now the Parliamentary Inquiry.

    I reckon the attempt to frame Alex Salmond has cost the Scottish taxpayer £10 million.

  36. Craig Murray says:

    That;s not including MI5’s costs

  37. paul says:

    Harry mcaye says:
    29 July, 2020 at 1:09 pm

    It’s almost as if the SNP top brass don’t want a thumping majority next year and the pressures one would bring.

    Not almost,as far as I can see.
    I think they would be happiest being the largest party in a minority government.

    As you say, a majority would bring problems they do not seek.

  38. Beaker says:

    The phrase “likely to” is the danger indicator. That is wide open to interpretation. How do you define such a phrase?

    Anyone who works in analysis will understand the importance of a clear definition. This bill is lacking.

    What is truly worrying is that if someone makes a complaint about an innocuous comment, the police will be duty bound to investigate the complaint. This could mean the unnecessary detention of an individual while the police and fiscal contemplate whether to arrest and charge them. Imagine being taken away by the police in front of your neighbours for making a subtle joke where there was no intent to insult / discriminate.

    Some people joke about Scotland turning into North Korea. It’s not so funny now.

  39. Andy Ellis says:


    What you’re missing is the total inability or unwillingness of the party to change. Over the past few years many folk (including me) have left the party in disgust over a number of different issues. All concerns and complaints have fallen on deaf ears. Show us a scintilla of evidence of action being taken to address the concerns and complaints and we might take your point seriously. As it stands…not so much.

    The problem SNP loyalists like you have to face is that the current leadership has zero realistic prospect (or indeed even desire?) to deliver a referendum, still less actual independence. Absent a change of policy or leadership, which seems unlikely at present, you and those content with the gradualist agenda have no hope of delivering indyref2 this decade.

    Given that likelihood, why would we waste our votes on a party many of us now no longer believe is serious about achieving independence in the short to medium term?

  40. Stoker says:

    Scozzie says on 29 July, 2020 at 1:51 pm

    “IMO our current laws on hate crime seem more than adequate.”

    Yes, they are, and there’s absolutely no consistency on enforcing those so why introduce extra guff when they don’t enforce the laws we have?

  41. Republicofscotland says:

    I suppose the only way to get Sturgeon and her wokest clique to listen to what the majority of the Scottish public actually wants (and its certainly not this nonsense or Self-ID or the GRA, polls have shown that) is to hit them where it hurts and that means denying them votes.

    If only we knew exactly who is pushing this authoritarian nonsense and the GRA, we could deny them our votes in their particular constituencies, thus weeding out the undesirables within the party at next years elections.

    The problem is are there enough people aware in the desired constituencies, of what’s actually going on and are they willing to either spoil their vote or vote for another party. Again the second option leads us to which party, not the Tories, nor Labour or the Libdems, or the ultra woke Greens, who does that leave, if only we had another indy party which its leaders weren’t wrapped up in careerism and ultra woke society harming policies, that actually wanted independence.

    The up and coming elections might be our last chance to vote with our feet, before the EU power grab, and the passing of these authoritarian bills, that won’t just negate Holyrood, but the Scottish public as well.

    My heart goes out to all the folk who thought independence was just around the corner, only to find another corner waiting, which has led us to a brick wall.

  42. Bob Mack says:

    It’s really difficult to think this is what we meant by building a better Scotland. All those visions of a more tolerant and inclusive society, run by the people.

    I actually like to think the Scottish humour can be abrasive but funny. Stand up comedians are going to go out of business, or spend prolonged periods in jail between engagements.

    How did we get to this?

  43. ahundredthidiot says:

    This is it. Free Speech. It is the only hill worth dying on.

    Everything is secondary.

    In that Channel 4 car crash interview, Jordan Peterson said to Cathie Newman ‘why should your right not to be offended trump my right to free speech’


  44. vlad (not that one) says:

    When tracing the convolutions (convulsions?) along the road to independence, the Party of Moderate Progress within the Framework of the Law springs to mind.

  45. Republicofscotland says:

    The way the SNP are hitting the self destruct button, and the Salmond fit up, it really does make you wonder if MI5 have the goods on Sturgeon, and the Murrell /Sturgeon appearance is nothing more than a construct.

  46. Willie says:

    One concern that we must all have is for the integrity of next year’s election.

    Vote tampering is not unknown. If the dark forces can rig the police, the civil service and the Crown Prosecution to pursue a witch-hunt against Salmond, Murray and Hirst, what else would they do.

    Vote tampering in the election, tampering in the candidate selection it’s all in the playbook. This is the state’s secret war and they’ve played it before in Ireland, Cyprus, Kenya, India and elsewhere.

    Things have moved on technically since Brig General Frank Kitson’s day’s fighting independence movements in the colonies, but the dark modus operandi remains the same. And if the dark arts don’t work, they’ll just kill you.

  47. mike cassidy says:

    Stuart McKay 1.06

    That would be the point though.

    To expose the fact that its not in fact A hate crime bill

    But a bill designed to target specific utterances

    eg the utterances of those against GRA

    not those in favour

  48. Robert Graham says:

    Alex is being blackmailed and goaded , he either spills the beans and destroys the SNP therefore stopping Indy ref 2 , or he shuts up and allows Indy ref 2 to be sidelined the same way as it has been for the last few years under the current management ,

    I wonder what shit is on its way to the fan and how it will be hidden by holding the jucy evidence in private .

    Lastly who is actually in charge in governing Scotland is it Holyrood (doubtful) the hub in Edinburgh (possibly) or dominic cummings ( odds on favourite ) I wonder .

  49. vlad (not that one) says:

    Bob Mack 14:10
    … Stand up comedians are going to go out of business, or spend prolonged periods in jail between engagements.

    In Communist states it was rumoured that typical awards for the best jokes would be: Gold 10 years, Silver 5 years, Bronze 2 years, plus three consolation prizes of 6 months each.

  50. Robert Graham says:

    I tend to agree with James @ 1.43 we can all moan but letting Car Crash rule the roost then we have shot ourselves in both feet and head simultaneously it aint worth it the management can be changed

  51. Bob Mack says:

    I see a SNP person called Fiona Robertson is being slaughtered on social media and indeed reported to the police for talking about under age sex.

    She apparently used the term “enthusiastic consent”, when describing education for minors.

  52. Lochside says:

    James says:
    29 July, 2020 at 1:55 pm
    If the predicted good SNP election results are damaged/destroyed by people not voting for them (in the constituency ballot) or by a giant public rift/uproar via the Salmond stitch-up enquiry where does that get us, exactly? Jackson Carcrash for FM, anyone?

    To all the posters here saying ‘I cancelled my membership’ –
    SNP policies can only be changed from within and/or challenged in the right way by indy list MSP’s from new parties.’

    James..the SNP are the ones damaging themselves. If you have been on this site over the past few years, you would have witnessed that the hardcore contributors have either swung over to expressing righteous anger at the total lack of competence and absence of any political nous being demonstrated by the SNP or have abandoned the site to the few remaining ‘true believers’, like MBP AND SC. The former group’s ( of which I number) anger has been compounded by the betrayal, yes betrayal of our SOVEREIGN status as European citizens and equal signatories of the UK ‘Union’ ,plus the succession of cave-ins to Westminster’s stranglehold on our powers. How Blackford can show his face publicly after all his faux assertions of no exit from Brexit bleating for Scotland defies understanding.

    I joined the SNP on the back of campaigning for ‘YES’ and saw the local branch shrivel year by year from 100+ active and keen members to a quorum of time servers who ignored my pleas to push the Act of Union as the deal breaker. The local MP told me at a canvassing meeting publicly not to push’INDEPENDENCE’ for the 2017 G.E. He nearly lost the seat, and I totally lost faith in the party.This imposter, who I voted for to represent us, when he was selected I shook his hand he said ‘I’m not a home ruler’….I pondered this and wondered why he was using an Irish reference..and immediately thought that he was a charlatan and I had voted wrongly. I have never had a reason to doubt that revised opinion. He has sat anonymously in Westminster and is conspicuous in his absence from one of the poorest areas of Scotland, his constituency. He is another virtue signaller/culture canceller who conned his way in masquerading as a patriot.

    How can we trust a party and a leader that has allowed/colluded in the Salmond fiasco?…a scandal that even a political idiot like Pete Wishart ( probably?) would have envisaged the damage done to the party on the eve of a supposed Referendum ( or maybe they knew the REF would not happen).? The financial mess of public capital projects in the hands of a clown like Mackay or Robson; the virtue signalling legal bourachs of the Football/Hate/GRA legislations? the fascistic hunting down under an SNP Justice Minister of progressive nationalists like A.S., Craig Murray, Michael Hirst and the REV?

    Will I vote SNP again?….I truly don’t know. If they ditch Sturgeon and her coterie and start pushing Independence, plus a Central Bank and our own currency, then yes , in a heartbeat. But what chance of that? Otherwise, we are headed to be ruled by Johnson with Ruth Davidson as Sec of State for the Union ( North Britain) ‘putting the boot in’ or’ if you want an image of the future…imagine a boot stamping on a human face…forever’ ( George Orwell).

  53. liz says:

    The hate bill is an abomination.
    It might seem weird but I think Humza is going through a period of wanting revenge – I’m linking it to his first wife leaving him, as mad as that might sound.

    If in the unlikely event it passes through Holyrood, and lets face it, there are some seriously thick people as MSPs at the moment, it will end up in the courts.

    BTW Angus R gets more idiotic by the day, he’s in the Edinburgh Evening News, saying that he’s received abuse from anonymous bots, trolls etc for putting his name forward for Edin Central selection. Which, wait for it, he mentioned anti-semitism in the same article as if linking the two.

    Angus R would love this bill to pass then he can have all who called out his premature campaigning for selection, banged up for stirring up hatred.
    Also some smart cookies on twitter called out fake accounts being set up to support AR.

    I cannot believe how far the SNP have fallen.

  54. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lochside (3.03) –

    Hear hear.

  55. defo says:

    With so little support, where did the call come from for this legislation?
    Who drafted it, and why?

    Surely this isn’t just a reaction to the OBFA debacle mentioned?

    A cynic might say it was all about stifling awkward voices. Possibly non Woke voices.

  56. Sharny Dubs says:

    Surely this has to be a ruse, and that a very poorly thought out one at that.

    I mean imagine the fuster cluck that would be “that offends me”. we could all just prove how unmanageable it would be by walking around saying Jesus is a c#*t or Buddha was a fat little ba#*&rd thereby floodIng the law courts and rendering the police unable to do their job.

    Someone is not on this planet.

  57. Dan says:

    This double edged sword might be best left sheathed…

    I find it abusive and stirring up degrees of hatred amongst my fellow citizens that certain individuals elected into positions of influence told the electorate many times, over several years, that Scotland won’t be taken out of the EU against its will, and that Scotland will have a right to choose its future after a material change of circumstance, only for those utterances to be untrue and misleading. 🙁

    Even if you don’t currently align with this view, you could always Self ID as an individual that does. 😉

    Class Action anyone?

  58. Mags says:

    As sturgeon is on a power trip and I feel like we are living in a totalitarian regime not only with the dangerous lunatic BS coming out from the party but also from the start of March. The way things are going there is a hell of a lot more important issues to worry about NOW both Scotland/Uk then independence. Has anyone ever thought that sturgeon could/would abolish future elections …whats to stop her? First time in my life that Im ashamed to be scottish. There is a lot of talk going on but when does the talk stop and action start? If action starts …how does it start ….who starts it… etc. Who has contacts, influence etc. Im not saying it would be easy but talk gets nowhere.

  59. mike cassidy says:

    Here’s an interesting angle from which to view the Hate Bill.

    The background is the antisemitism claims against Corbyn and the Labour Party.

    Jane Heybroek was sued for libel

    For the contents of an article she retweeted.

    Not writing it.

    For retweeting it.

    Think about that in relation to the regular links put up n Wings.

    Here’s the article

    Today the case was withdrawn and a contribution to costs met.

  60. Johnny says:

    Mags, if Holyrood elections are ‘abolished’, I rather think it will be because Boris has gotten there and shut the whole place down. So, no, there’s not many things more important than independence.

  61. Corrado Mella says:

    This law is not just part of that toxic cancel mob culture that swamps any debate with hateful, shouty and irrational fodder: it’s the embodiment of the extremist, violent, abusive and sociopathic attack to anything that could maintain a resemblance of structure in our society.

    This is the tip of the iceberg of a bigger, coordinated attack to unhinge the compassionate, caring, cooperative society that has made Scotland and the Scots what they are now.

    No surprise that this law comes with the imprimatur of a Scottish Government that is now clearly hostage of the BritNazi Establishment and its goonies.

    I’ve warned about cuckoo eggs in our nest a few years ago.
    Again, as Cassandra, I’ve been ignored.

    How do you think a relatively small power like the BritNazi Establishment could colonise entire continents, subjugate, enslave and exploit millions – billions! – of people and still be in power today?

    Using ("Tractor" - Ed)s, opportunists and weaklings, and blackmailing or knifing the opposition.

    Section 30… in your dreams.
    There’ll be tanks in your squares, come January.

  62. Scozzie says:

    Harry Mcaye @ 1.09pm
    I agree. The SNP want to pivot between sneaking in with a minority government or small majority. And the HR election system allows them to do this – a massive majority win is impossible.

    But what they don’t want is those vegetables in the unionist parties being replaced by pro-indy list members. Now that will set the cat amongst the pigeons as they know they will have an opposition that holds them to account on independence. Right now the status quo suits them just fine in the HR parliament.

    What’s more, I first thought that reaching the so called ‘magical’ 60% polls result for independence would make then shit a brick (I know we’re not there yet but not so far away). But Nicola has pre-empted that also – now we need to wait until some unspecified date until the economy recovers from the COVID fallout. P.S. did we ever recover from the GFC…just asking seems a rather convenient excuse?

    So they’ll go for the middle of the road – shiny new mandate for the HR election. Plunk their arses on the gravy train for 5 more years and treat independence supporters as chumps.

    If they seek an all out win at the HR election as a declaration of independence, I’ll gladly eat my words.

  63. Allium says:

    @Liz 3.06

    Humza has changed a lot, and not for the better – no idea why, but its quite startling and very noticeable. Both he and NS seemed to develop new personalities almost overnight a couple of years back. Its baffling.

  64. liz says:

    @Allium, I agree. Both have changed beyond recognition unless they used to be very good actors.

    I think NS realised she doesn’t have it in her to push for indy for some complex reasons including the desire to be liked by everyone, But she likes the power to much to step aside

  65. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Earth to Nicola Sturgeon: Nicola, for fuck’s sake – stop digging.

  66. callmedave says:

    Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK


    N. Ireland……….00……..Total…..556…BBC
    England…………*14.*sun…Total..^41360..WM Gov
    UK…………….today…83………Total…45961…WM Gov.

    This UK Gov website will be decommissioned on Tuesday 4 August 2020. 🙁 Wonder why?

  67. Baronesssamedi says:

    Stu – superb title for this piece. Subtle knife!

  68. CameronB Brodie says:

    IMHO, the Scottish government is either ignorant of the law, and is simply following atrocious legal advice. Or they are genuinely creating a legal environment that is supportive of totalitarianism. The law is supposed to reflect reality, but the Scottish government apparently wants to constrain the law’s view of the world purely to the realm of psychology (see genderwoowoo and constitutional law). This is inadequate to meeting the needs of justice, as it rejects logic and phenomenology.

    Critical Review of International Social and Political Philosophy, 2018
    A recognition-sensitive phenomenology of hate speech

    One particularly prominent strand of hate speech theory conceptualizes the harm in hate speech by considering the immediate illocutionary force of a hate speech ‘act’. What appears to be missing from such a conception, however, is how recognition relations and normative expectations present in a speech situation influence the harm such speech causes to its victims.

    Utilizing a particular real-world example, this paper illustrates how these defining background conditions and intersubjective relations influence the harm of hate speech as it is experienced from the first-person perspective. This, more nuanced conception of harm, takes note of the effects such speech inflicts on an individual’s recognitive status, and can provide a clearer understanding of the conditions necessary for an act of hate speech to cause the speaker’s desired effect on their targets.

    Hate speech, racism, harm, recognition, Langton, Butler, Critical race theory

  69. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Bob Mack at 3:00 pm.

    You typed,
    “I see a SNP person called Fiona Robertson is being slaughtered on social media and indeed reported to the police for talking about under age sex.
    She apparently used the term “enthusiastic consent”, when describing education for minors.”

    Here’s some background for you. An article from last year.

  70. Robert Graham says:

    i really hope the ones who work for our illustrious English government who can be seen on here on a daily basis ( aye we see you )I hope they believe their work is getting some traction , just because folk argue and swear about the SNP dosnt mean we are totally fkn stupid .
    When push comes to shove even the most vocal folk will never return to supporting this scabby union , once lost ,GONE FOREVER are you watching lads or indeed ladies yer onto plumbs but as long as it keeps you off the streets well fill yer boots ,
    Because you are keeping everyone amused you have a nice day now

  71. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s a useful perspective that I recommend to our law makers.

    A Phenomenology of Love and Hate

  72. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Beaker 2.04: “Some people joke about Scotland turning into North Korea.”

    “Right, squire! You’re nicked.” 🙂

  73. Haagsehighlander says:

    All this talk of a referendum,plebicite etc in 2021,im not getting it.Brexit transition is one year,6 months to say boo hoo to E.U.and the other 6,chocks away new uk.
    W.M.have already fired the agriculture and NHS bills through and its still only July.
    I think someone went to WM and said,”we can get AS”
    They didn’t!
    “We,ll defo get him this time”
    They didn’t!
    “lets try for some of the others”
    Remember after JC stopped the proroguement of parlament,WM were ragin. they,ve been trying to overrule Scots law since.Are they trying to run down the funds of the good people who crowdfund these cases, knowing that it doesn’t matter, because WM in next few months are going to say,”Well you’ve made a dogs ear of all these cases and your proposed hate crime/gra bills are just nonsense,and as we’ve made some amendments to a few laws while we were on holiday we,re declaring english law,above all.
    Personally i dont think we’ve got until 2021,but hopefully ive got this all wrong,thoughts folks?

  74. Scozzie says:

    Haagsehighlander @ 4.53pm
    Technically you’re dead right, the SNP should be making decisive action towards independence before Dec 2020 (as per their manifesto pledge).

    But I think every man and their dog has resigned themselves to the brutal fact that they’ll do nothing to prevent Scotland leaving the EU.

    So there’s only now the remotest of chances the SNP will make HR 2021 an independence plebiscite…and we also need to face the brutal fact they’ll probably do nothing of the sort.

    So it’s more likely the SNP will seek another mandate but this time dressed up in a tutu and lipstick (keeps the wokes on board!).

  75. Oneliner says:

    @Robert Graham


    ‘Scabby’ is as ‘scabby’ does. All part of our political development. We must learn to be like the red/blue tories – hold your nose and vote. (‘Operation Arse’ anyone?)

    Let’s get everyone in the room bickering, they’ll lose sight of the elephant. So……

    Trident for the Thames.
    If Chernobyl had been Faslane – Glasgow would be dead.

  76. Juteman says:

    At this moment in Scotlands history, you have to ask, who’s idea was it to bring forward this shite? Plus the chicks with dicks shite!
    You might think that the plan is to lose this election.

  77. CameronB Brodie says:

    Just to confirm my earlier recommendation. Btw, Husserlian phenomenology is incompatible with genderwoowoo.

    The Lived Experience of Hate Crime
    Towards a Phenomenological Approach

    The first book to provide a systematic analysis of Husserlian phenomenology as an approach to the lived experience of hate crime

  78. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Bob Mack &BDTT: I can’t believe anyone in the party would espouse views which would not be out of place in a PIE member from the 70s/80s.

    Given the immediate, knee-jerk treatment meted out to Michelle Thomson, Grouse Beater and Neale Hanvey, why has nothing been done about this by the leadership?

  79. Haagsehighlander says:

    Thanks for the reply, alas i dont feel any better about it 😉

  80. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, genderwoowoo is incompatible with Husserlian phenomenology.

  81. liz says:

    @mags that is the scariest thing I’ve read in quite some time.
    He was detained by the police for his own safety, WTAF.

    It’s been taken down but you can still get it through pressreader.

  82. CameronB Brodie says:

    If the Scottish government hasn’t been sabotaged from within, they have a very strange way of supporting the rule-of-law.


    The project is funded by the Daphne III Programme of the European Union.

    The Daphne III programme aims to contribute to the protection of children, young people and women against all forms of violence and attain a high level of health protection, well-being and social cohesion.

    Its specific objective is to contribute to the prevention of, and the fight against all forms of violence occurring in the public or the private domain, including sexual exploitation and trafficking of human beings.

    It aims to take preventive measures and provide support and protection for victims and groups at risk.

  83. mike cassidy says:

    Bob Mack Brian Doonthetoon

    The reporting of Fiona Robertson is bizarrely the sort of thing I was referring to earlier at 12.53

    The goose and gander principle.

    And she has the nerve to say its a looking glass moment

  84. Scozzie says:

    Robert Graham @ 4.37pm
    Please can we stop with the notion that people who comment on here work for the WM government. And nobody’s suggesting people should vote for unionist parties either!

    There’s a whole lot of people who are utterly bewildered by the SNP – let’s just remember they’re supposedly meant to be the political force that will achieve independence for Scotland.

    Yet, they’re doing absolutely nothing to advance the very thing they’ve been elected to do.

    Tell me – what have they done?
    They’re coasting along until the next HR election just to win 5 year more in power. Unless people make a stand and force the issue on action it will be another 5 years in the wilderness.

  85. JGedd says:

    ‘Whoever the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.’

    But who are the ‘gods’ in this present situation who have made the Scottish Government appear to act irrationally and who benefits from these circumstances?

    I admit to being totally baffled by the SNP embarking on a course of action which seems self-destructive. This can only end badly for the SNP and for the cause of independence. Is it hubris that has blinded them to the consequences of promoting GRA legislation and now the proposed Hate Crime legislation?

    One seems inextricably connected to the other. I had wondered how they thought that the GRA legislation would play out with the electorate once ordinary voters caught up. Now it seems that they intend to use the force of law to shut up any dissent.

    Their thinking does seem to be connected to the global community and how most of the citadels have fallen so easily. Obviously they think that they can undermine any opposition in the same way, first by monstering any opposition, then infiltrating and finally by hi-jacking institutions and passing draconian wrong-think legislation.

    None of this looks democratic to me. In grandstanding to the international community, I think Scotland has become too small for them and independence, as a cause, unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

  86. Haagsehighlander says:

    Scozzy says,
    So its more likely the SNP will seek another mandate but this time with a tutu
    and lipstick (Keep the wokes board!.)

    That’ll be a transdate,theyll be after then.WTAF?

  87. stuart mctavish says:

    One silver lining of legislators taking the view that everyone on that list feeds on hate and must therefore deserve cancelling/ ignoring might be that, when taken in conjunction with the retroactive precedent set by the Scottish Ministerial Code, the abandonment of the fair/ honest comment principle will necessarily reverse the findings in Campbell v Dugdale..

  88. Gregor says:

    I’m not a fan of some of these individuals and organisations, however, I defend everyone’s fundamental Right to express and share their views and opinions – at will.

    Scotland 2020… ?

  89. Robert graham says:

    Thanks for posting the background link to something I haven’t seen before re a certain Fiona Robertson , well that exchange was a real eye opener

    I wonder if comments and exchanges like this will in the end give the identities of the Alphabet sisters away ,it appears they seem to believe they are untouchable and are being allowed to keep pressing their failed case with no repercussions and anyone who dares raise any question regarding the coverage of the Alex Salmond trial are treated like serial killers , strange one sided application of the law in Scotland..

    The participants and witnesses in the upcoming inquiry may or may not include previous witnesses it will be interesting ,I imagine no one will be allowed to hint or even suggest who they actually are or does the lifetime protection cover the inquiry and any and all subsequent inquiries or has a insurmountable brick wall been built

  90. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “and if you want policy changes then do it via internal processes. (Or am I missing something?)”

    Yes, you are: the impossibility of affecting policy change via internal processes. The SNP is not set up that way any more. It’s wholly controlled by the ruling clique. This year’s conference had already been effectively cancelled BEFORE the coronavirus.

  91. velofello says:

    We were a mild local not especially well-attended SNP branch. then a couple from the “city” joined. First noticeable change was quotations from the SNP rule book “advising” us and stifling ideas. Then sub-sub committees were initiated by them with, yes, the two new “city’ members on said sub-sub committees.
    One of the two, no1 put themselves forward at hustings for selection as our MP candidate – failed selection. No2 ‘city”member was selected to contest the Holyrood MSP elections – failed, and caused a rift with a neighbouring branch. No1 then put themselves on the list to be a councillor. A local SNP supporter, not a branch meeting attendee, reported that he had been petitioned by No1 before the permissible SNP campaigning start date. Our chairperson twice contacted SNP headquarters about this , and was twice ignored.No1 closely edged out a local member and succeeded to be elected as a councillor.Two public gaffes so far by no1 whilst a councillor.

    I can’t add more as I stopped attending branch meeting, then let my SNP membership lapse, after +30 years.I have only ever voted SNP, but now what?

    Unity of purpose absolutely, but quality leadership and integrity is essential.

    National concerns expressed here do seem to run parallel to my local experience.

  92. Robert graham says:

    Scossie read what I posted ,

    if you believe all posters here are the genuine article you are easily fooled,

    Wakey Wakey

  93. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s another perspective that I think the Scottish government needs to take into account when shaping Scots law.

    A guide to ontology, epistemology, and philosophical perspectives for interdisciplinary researchers

  94. Women Make Glasgow says:

    I feel I have to point out the omission of Women Make Glasgow from the list of critics of the Bill.
    Humza made a big show of mocking our objections, claiming that we didn’t know what we were talking about.
    Within days the newspapers were full of religious organisations condemning the Bill on the very same grounds as we had.
    Humza’s approach to criticism has been name calling and mocking. It’s truly astounding that after shaming the office of Minister of Transport with his driving fiasco he now also mocks the development of the criminal law. What did we do to deserve such an unprofessional Minister?

  95. GeeH says:

    Humza’s bill protects every oppressed group from hate except women. Tells you everything you need to know about sexist wee Humza.

    Men will be able to batter the sh*t out of women while calling them c8nts, wh8re, b*tch etc and it’s not a hate crime.

    But tweet that women don’t have penises? Guilty of a hate crime, you evil hater.

    Imagine designing a law that gives men in a frock more protections in law than actual women get. Unbelievable.

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s another.

    Inner Experience – Direct Access to Reality: A Complementarist Ontology and Dual Aspect Monism Support a Broader Epistemology

  97. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Robert graham at 6:01 pm.

    You typed,
    Thanks for posting the background link to something I haven’t seen before re a certain Fiona Robertson , well that exchange was a real eye opener
    I wonder if comments and exchanges like this will in the end give the identities of the Alphabet sisters away…”

    In case you missed it, click on the link below then READ the content at the links cited – and the links contained in the links.

    Then try to understand why Garavelli is not in the same boat as Craig Murray.

    BTW: I checked with Rev Stu before I did the comment at the link and he said it was OK, as I was only linking to what had been already published in the MSM.

  98. Jimmy Jo says:

    The Courts are going to love this Bill as well.

    They are absolutely bursting at the seams with the backlog of cases caused by the Covid19 crisis.

    How the hell are they going to cope with another influx of cases once this becomes law?

    The SNP have totally lost the plot.

  99. Jimmy Jo says:

    Here pussy pussy pussy, your milk is out.

    You and your gang of Sturgeonistas have got a lot of questions to answer.

  100. CameronB Brodie says:

    They’ve either lost the plot, or have been infiltrated by anti-democratic totalitarians.

    International Journal for the Semiotics of Law – Revue internationale de Sémiotique juridique volume 23, pages 165–183 (2010)

    Judicial Epistemology of Free Speech Through Ancient Lenses

    The article is the author’s endeavor to reconstruct the semiotic conflict in the transatlantic legal appraisal of hate speech (between the USA and Europe) through Ancient Greek concepts of ???????? (parrh?sia) and ???????? (is?goria).

    The US Supreme Court case law on the First Amendment to American Constitution is, therefore, counter-balanced vis-à-vis la jurisprudence de Strasbourg on Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights. The author suggests that an adequate comprehension of the contemporary constitutional concepts of the right to free speech in Western democracies is deceptive without a thorough analysis of its genealogy in the Ancient rhetorical cradle.

  101. A Person says:

    One or two people on this site, I swear to God, if Nicola Sturgeon announced that she was setting fire to every child in Scotland, would take a picture of her setting the fire, retweet it saying “our First Minister’s child-burning skills do us proud!” and when people complained would say, “we can’t object, she has a secret plan!”

  102. CameronB Brodie says:

    WordPress doen’t like Greek, apparently.

  103. ALANM says:

    I’d like to see a list of those who we’re still allowed to hate.

    For example, will Sturgeon allow us to hate the Tories or is that banned too?

  104. Effijy says:

    O/T The global Civid stats make grim reading today.

    USA, Brazil, India, Russian and South Africa have had 10 million
    Cases between them with 300,000 Covid Deaths.

    Things are getting so bad in Mexico their number of Covid Deaths
    are in danger of catching Boris’.

    Belgium approaching 10,000 Civid deaths which is the loss of 0.85% of their population.

  105. CameronB Brodie says:

    So here’s some communication theory.

    Hate speech and its harms: a communication theory perspective

    In this article I analyze harms caused by hate speech using Carey’s (1989) contrasting transmission and ritual models of communication. Adoption of the transmission model directs the attention of courts and legislative bodies to effects of hate speech such as emotional and behavioral changes in the recipients of the speech.

    In contrast, the ritual model illustrates the reinforcement of racist attitudes and disparate treatment of minorities that occurs with the repetitive use of hate speech. Although the ritual model serves a heuristic function by providing courts with a framework for understanding harm caused by hate speech, its judicial adoption to determine liability for individual instances of racist or sexist communication raises troublesome First Amendment issues

  106. Robert graham says:

    funny how the slightest mention of that case and the sisters seems to invoke a sense of self censorship , it’s like being watched for any and all indiscretions , a subliminal message being transmitted I believe .

  107. ronnie anderson says:

    Mr Anderson you are charged with expressing nasty thoughts against the state How do you plead .Guilty your honour & i wish a further 54 years of nasty thoughts taken into consideration & further to that the Justice Secretary Humsa Yousaf is ah Dickheid

  108. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope the Scottish Justice Secretary is still monitoring this site, as it gives me the opportunity to point out to him, that his approach to the law is undermine the potential for democracy in Scotland.

    International Journal of Constitutional Law, Volume 12, Issue 3, July 2014, Pages 816–820
    The Content and Context of Hate Speech: Rethinking Regulation and Responses

  109. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Robert graham at 7:01 pm

    funny how the slightest mention of that case and the sisters seems to invoke a sense of self censorship , it’s like being watched for any and all indiscretions , a subliminal message being transmitted I believe”

    Yeah, that’s why I contacted Rev Stu before commenting. it’s all out there on the web. Look at the MSM reports on the trial from March…

    Then sticking 3 pertinent words into Google… Check out the links from January 2019.

  110. John Thomson says:

    Clear to me that Scottish Government has and is continuing to mislead the public and not just Humza

  111. schrodingers cat says:

    “David Frost sends final warning to Barnier – Take our Brexit trade offer or it’s no deal!”


  112. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Women Make Glasgow 6.24: thanks for that illuminating account. I’d heard similar rumours about his patronising and ill-informed anti-women behaviour but that’s pretty shocking.

    In answer to your question, I think The New Bambi is simply a shameless wee Yes-Man who knows on which side his bread is buttered. Unless………

    What has happened to the SNP leadership in the last two to three years? Were they all taken into a room and made an offer they couldn’t refuse by the security services or did someone flick a switch on the Acme Mk. III Sleeper Activation Device?

  113. CameronB Brodie says:

    I find it hard to believe the Justice Secretary is particularly competent in his understanding of the law, and that’s me self-censoring.

    Free Speech and Justified True Belief

  114. liz says:

    Humza is now quoting a group funded by the Scot gov and who he consulted with before setting out this nonsense, as being experts in the field.

    This is how far down the rabbit hole he is going.
    The only group that supports this, is one of his stakeholders and remember he is only going to respond to the stakeholders, ordinary punters can go do one.

    Disappointingly Aamer Anwar supports this bill

  115. george wood says:

    If this becomes law and is as bad as we fear, then we have to use the law to report trans groups for misogynistic and homophobic hate crimes.

    Remember when the OBFA act became law, celtic fans welcomed it until they discovered it applied to them as well.

    Clog the courts up with complaints against trans groups and their supporters and the law will become unworkable.

    We have the science on our side and the moral high ground, so we need to use it to defeat trans ideology which is an amalgam of horrors of Section 28 and PIE (paedophile information exchange for the younger readers).

  116. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scotland has a serious problem, as British constitutionalism is determined not to allow those living in Scotland access the benefits of democracy, and the Scottish government appears determined to undermine the very foundations of democracy. This needs sorting or Scotland has no future.

    Free Speech, the Search for Truth, and the Problem
    of Collective Knowledge

  117. Beaker says:

    The SNP store are selling facemasks with “SNP”, “Yes”, etc. I thought COVID-19 wasn’t going to be political, considering facemasks are now compulsory. I don’t mind the saltires, but branding is a wee bit tasteless.

  118. Dogbiscuit says:

    The Bill also potentially criminalises your library shelves. So much SNP policy seems an attempt to undermine our humanity.

  119. Normski says:

    “Harry mcaye says:
    29 July, 2020 at 1:09 pm

    …As it stands, I won’t be voting for them…”

    And that is exactly what the enemies of the SNP and Scottish Independence want you to do.

  120. Dogbiscuit says:

    For more information on covid check out Dr Pam Popper on YouTube.

  121. Dogbiscuit says:

    SNP political ‘lockdown’ .If they can take the piss out of our aspirations for Independence the Government can and are lying about covid 19.
    Imagine branding face muzzles with SNP logos sick.

  122. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @velofello (6.04) –

    What you’ve described there could be used in a text book to explain ‘entryism’.

    Have to wonder how many branches have had the same experience. It would be interesting to see the earliest examples and work out when this was first rolled out – it should, in time, be possible to nail the organisers i.e. those outwith the SNP/SG who were pushing for the adoption of all this shitery as policy, and those within the SNP/SG who helped make it happen. Can’t imagine it happened overnight.

  123. Sensibledave says:

    Scozzie 5.35

    … you are wasting your time! Some commenters need to believe that anything and everything that happens that they are unhappy with … is the fault of Westminster. The fact that the whole AS issue is a result of proceedings by Scottish courts, Scottish press, Scottish police, Scottish government (etc), escapes them.

  124. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Normski

    I’m afraid the votes of many former supporters (and even members) are conditional though. No party is entitled to our support. I will not now vote for the SNP on the list. I may vote for them in my constituency, or I may not, depending on the candidate. I can’t bring myself to vote for a unionist party, and I certainly won’t vote Green. I may simply spoil my constituency ballot or not use it at all.

    If that costs the SNP seats, so be it. I won’t be manipulated or blackmailed to vote for a party that is not doing its job! In fact given self-ID/GRA, the new Hate Crime Bill, the shameful treatment of Salmond and the determined lack of progress on Plan B, I don’t really want to hand the SNP a political blank cheque in the form of a Holyrood majority.

  125. bipod says:

    I see that dithering nicola has pivoted away from talking about covid deaths (as there isn’t any) and is now talking about cases. There is now an extremely serious “cluster” of 13 cases in Greater Glasgow or so I am told. It is so shameless and obvious that she is only doing it to keep up the fear and hysteria.

    Then there is this so called “second wave” in Europe. Spain and many other European countries have been reporting an increase in cases, but for anyone paying attention you will have noticed that the death rate/hospitilizations has not increased to match it and it has been extremely low in the countries that dithering nicola was scare mongering about earlier today. The increase in cases is more of a reflection of the big increase in testing, and the governments looking harder for it, just like the Leicester scam. I am sure if New Zealand began testing at a level comparable to Europe they would suddenly find that they are in the grips of a “second wave” also.

    And I also see that the “V shape” economic recovery just hasn’t happened. This is because of the persistent scare mongering and irrational hysteria being generated by the media/government/covid bedwetters. The nation will never fully recover from this self inflicted disaster as long as we have politicians like dithering nicola who stoke fear to try and gain political advantage.

  126. Ian Brotherhood says:

    This is a really important topic, a great post, and one that deserves broad coverage and attention.

    Some of us (and I noticed, @FOWingsScot) have been tweeting the link to this page. My own tweet quoted Craig Murray (at 1.56 : ‘I reckon the attempt to frame Alex Salmond has cost the Scottish taxpayer £10 million.’) Those tweets have been getting a lot of RTs and responses.

    So, can I appeal to lurkers and new arrivals – please contribute to the discussion, especially if you have any experience of SNP membership in recent years and can add to what velofello stated at 6.04. There’s real solid detective work to be done here which could prove to be crucial in establishing the root cause of all this sinister shenanigans. (I dare say the Scottish Government and/or SNP hierarchy are unlikely to commission such studies anytime soon.)

    Many WOS regulars have gone quiet lately (for a variety of reasons) and the result is that a limited number of posters, usually the same, tend to dominate threads (that includes me, at times). That won’t happen if the discussion is refreshed by new contributions, so please, please consider saying your bit.


  127. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. Dr. Pam Popper. She appears to be hostile to federal government. Just saying.

    Full text.

    Emergency science: Epistemological insights on the response to COVID-19 pandemics

    To the Editor – In the year 2000, South Africa President Thado Mbeki was the spokesman of an organized movement of AIDS denialism, which still echoes in many countries, such as Russia.1 When facing pandemics, scientific denialism may adopt several faces and disguises.

    The “common cold” argument against the potential severity of COVID-19 spread through social media. The balance of socioeconomic versus sanitary achievements of lockdown may be contaminated by global ideological discussions and/or local political interests.2

    Public health challenges become more intense when decisions depend on mathematical modeling and scarce, suboptimal empirical evidence. Such occurrences obviously have implications for infection control and patient safety.

    When an ongoing pandemics require rapid translation of research findings into practice guidelines, the epistemological basis of modern public health must be discussed. Here, I submit the scientific basis of the response to the pandemic to critical scrutiny based on ideas from renowned philosophers of science. Additionally, I discuss the policy of disseminating knowledge in times of global emergency.

  128. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. She may have due cause to be hostile to federal government, given Trump is POTUS.

  129. twathater says:

    Clapper 57 @ 1pm , clapper I love your entertaining posts but you don’t half send us all on a corkscrew roundabout , but we always get to the nub in the end , Smiley thingy

  130. susan says:

    Ian Brotherhood @8:45. I think the problem stems from the huge membership surge after the SNP became the dominant party. It was an entryist’s dream. I’m not a member btw, thought about it but decided against.

  131. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @susan –

    That makes sense, but they would have had to be recruited, vetted, organised etc when? I’m wondering how far back we have to go to find the roots of all this.

    Perhaps it’ll be 30 years before all the info is available and most (well, many!) of us will be lang-deid by then, but when it all comes out who would bet against a lot of it being down to those hardy perennials, blackmail and hard cash?


  132. susan says:

    I really don’t know how exactly they managed it though the wokies seem well organized and funded.

  133. Graeme says:

    susan says:
    29 July, 2020 at 9:51 pm

    I really don’t know how exactly they managed it though the wokies seem well organized and funded.


    And well supported

  134. Graeme says:

    They seem hell bent on alienating their whole support, it doesn’t make sense, I don’t know if it’s just arrogance and contempt or if there’s something more sinister behind it but there’s something seriously wrong

  135. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. the unhealthy influence genderwoowoo is having across western democracies.

    Issues and Challenges in the Application of Husserlian Phenomenology to the Lived Experience of Hate Crime and Its Legal Aftermath: An Enlightenment Prejudice Against Prejudice?

    The field of hate crime research addresses the presence, sources, and impact of particular types of expressions of prejudice, often perceived as particularly damaging and hurtful forms of interpersonal abuse and violence.

    There is the reflexive question of the possibilities of researchers themselves ever being able to adopt a truly “unprejudiced” approach to the presence of such damaging prejudices. Can this goal be realized without a researcher necessarily losing an experientially grounded understanding of what these meanings, values and purposes have come to mean, and how they are themselves interpretively reconstituted anew, including within the lived experience of victims, witnesses, police, prosecutors, judges, and victim support workers?

    A possible philosophically informed approach to the dilemmas posed by this topic is offered by Husserl’s phenomenology. This study critically explores the possibilities, reflective stages, and theoretical limitations of a sympathetically reconstructed Husserlian approach to hate crime. It argues that despite its manifest tensions, gaps, ambiguities, and internal contradictions, aspects of the Husserlian philosophical approach directed toward the different levels of experienced hate crime still retain the potential to both challenge and advance our understanding of this topic.

    Husserl, phenomenology, hate crime as experienced, limits of phenomenology

  136. CameronB Brodie says:

    If the SNP wishes to legislate in such a manner as to deny science, they are not fit for purpose.

    The Journal of Sex Research, Volume 56, 2019 – Issue 4-5
    Gender/Sex, Sexual Orientation, and Identity Are in the Body: How Did They Get There?

  137. Fionan says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    29 July, 2020 at 8:45 pm
    This is a really important topic, a great post, and one that deserves broad coverage and attention.

    You are correct Ian in that it could prove enlightening if more lurkers were to share their experiences and thoughts on what and when something brought about change in the SNP. But anyone who dares speak here risks getting slagged off by the infantile ‘me, me, me’ crew who disrupt all the threads, not to mention the fear of hammers, so they dont risk putting their heads above the parapet. Having experienced, and been very upset by both, I very rarely comment now and I dont respond to the malicious little attacks either.

    My belief, for what it is worth,is that we need to investigate Murrell much more thoroughly – is he Nicolas Cummings? Also, from the info available, the big changes in the snp seemed to happen around 2016.

    Due to disability and related reasons, I have not attended many snp meetings in years, and only had sporadic membership over the past decade, but supported them fully till around the end of 2019 beginning of 2020, particularly through January when Stu’s seemingly odd opinions on the snp and indy were fully vindicated as the soundbites re indy/brexit became so outright obvious, then over the following weeks with open eyes at last, the extent of the stitch-up of AS became equally clear. My reaction to these betrayals was initially a wish to deny them, then a horror that we had allowed these things to take place. Everything since has been verification of the underhanded move towards authoritarian control of scotland, the scotgov and the snp. In all of this, by the way, I never doubted Alex’s innocence.

    Now if I am attacked for my views or have hammers thrown, I will not be rising to it, there is way more than enough infantile squabbling one-up-man-shit here already.

  138. Robert Louis says:

    Barrhead boy has a simply excellent piece on his blog. I agree with every word, and every single SNP MP AND MSP should read it and heed the sentiment.

    The final paragraph is simply excellent;

    QUOTE “I just want everyone to keep in mind this is the same people that some think will eventually respect a mandate from the Scottish people to secede from their evil empire. Stop playing by their rules and come up with a plan to get us away from this evil ridden Union. Stop playing at being pseudo Brits. You are Scottish Independence MPs sent down there to do a specific job. Agitate for Scotland, fight for Scotland. Show no respect to that cesspit of corruption and malfeasance. Treat it the same way they treat our country. No more Little Brit behaviour! Winnie led the way remember her words. You are there to settle up, not to settle down!”

    Source :

  139. shug says:

    It will be interesting to see what the conservatives do.

    Should they do everything to let it pass – knowing the problems it will create for the SNP

    Should they oppose it – like the bulk of the people above

  140. cirsium says:

    @ Lochside (3.03)

    Well said

  141. Dan says:


    There’s the old adage that generally those that are motivated to seek power are exactly the sort that should never get near it…
    That type often rise to positions of prominence because “reasonably” minded folk are more live and let live and don’t strive to impose their will on others and are often too meek to stand up against more dominant types.

    There may also be traits of certain mental health conditions present and that offers an explanation of being so highly committed, focused, and organised in pushing a particular subject / agenda.

  142. dakk says:

    Not sure what Cabaret Voltaire have to do with it.

    Get Salmond.

  143. CameronB Brodie says:

    Some essential reading for the Justice Secretary.

    The Philosophical Aspects of Hate Crime and Hate Crime Legislation: Introducing the Special Symposium on the Philosophy of Hate Crime

  144. velofello says:

    Another concern for me – reference Barrhead Boy’s views on how the SNP MPs should behave at Westminster – what liaison is there between Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford, SNP leader at Westminster?

    Sturgeon says that she is too busy with Covid to concern herself with politics! Successful managers delegate. Dr Phillipa Whitford would comfortably assume the lead role in the daily Covid briefings on TV, indeed she should bring the medical knowledge that Sturgeon is at pains to declare that she does not possess.

    Brexit is of equal importance than Covid in my view, and Sturgeon should major on Brexit.
    Which SNP MP has the brief to work with Mike Russell on Brexit?

    Sturgeon should be alongside Mike Russell and whoever else, sharing the Brexit burden in the rathouse of Westminster.

  145. schrodingers cat says:


    the unionists hate nicola’s covid breifings, they have done everything in their power to stop them. msm journos asking non virus related questions, carlaw and co spreading lies, the latest actors voice over is deeply suspect, to demanding that the bbc stops televising nicola’s updates.

    now i dont know if these “updates” from nicola are causing nos to move to yes, or are the reason for her popularity etc

    what i do know is they really rip the unionists knitting for whatever reason.

    thats more than enough reason for nicola to continue doing them

  146. Bob Mack says:

    It’s very clear that there is a general consensus growing about the SNP lack of activity, indeed interest in Independence.

    It’s very noticeable on other blogs that former posters who deserted Wings are beginning to see the problem and are indeed now saying the very things that caused them to stop contributing on here.

    That must be painful.

  147. schrodingers cat says:


    or maybe they got tired of the abuse here?

  148. Bob Mack says:


    Can anybody actually believe that an open forum ( which is Wings), is not going to be attacked by the same hand who protest at the AUOB marches?

    Of course they will try to disrupt. We must fight our corner.

    Are we saying that they are tougher than us? More resilient?

    More determined? However I follow the blogs regularly and I know why many left. They told everybody that They could no longer follow Wings because of the things Rev was saying about the SNP. That is the truth. That’s what hurt.

    Now the light is dawning on them that the truth all along appears to have been actually what was said in here.

    I may be a ("Tractor" - Ed) to the SNP, but I would never abandon Scotland’s Indy.

    If that means taking abuse so be it. I can give it out too when reqd.

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    schrodingers cat
    You’re one to talk. Do you still think morals are a fantasy?

  150. Baxter 1967 says:

    My experience of branch meetings prior to 2014 was they were held in a telephone box. Post 2014 there was an influx of former Labour voters who all adored Nicola but seemed perfectly normal and ordinary folk. The nuttier types I only saw at conference, the ones with as much life experience as the family goldfish, who speak woke code. They have an incestuous relationship with the SG funded quangos and equality industry. It’s career building and has nothing remotely to do with Independence. They’ve worked a perfect coup. It’s top driven and most SNP politicians lack the bottle to shout the emperor’s nae clothes. It’s not going to end well.

  151. Velofello says:

    Schrödinger’s cat: the daily briefings on Civid are axcellent, I disagree that a First Minster should drop activity in politics in order to front the work of others in combatting Covid.

  152. Jimmy Jo says:

    Bob Mack 11.10

    The penny is slowly but surely dropping with the hard of thinking branches of the SNP.

    But you do get the occasional stubborn, single minded bastards within the SNP membership (most of them are on Wings) who will never believe that THEIR Nicola is guilty of anything.

  153. Morgatron says:

    Great analysis Stu. I do think that they dont think . The OBFA I believe a was
    truly excellent act, one of a true step forward in the SNP time in power at Holyrood. The proposed HCB is a frighting impingement of my right to free speech.Next stop thought crime .

  154. Jimmy Jo says:

    Here pussy, pussy, pussy!!!

    Your cat flap is opened, now get out and stop pestering everybody.

  155. CameronB Brodie says:

    As I’ve said, I don’t want to hurt the SNP, but they appear intent on hurting Scotland. It simply isn’t possibly to defend human rights without a respect for Natural Law and biology.

    A Comparative Analysis of Hate Crime Legislation
    A Report to the Hate Crime Legislation Review

    In January 2017, the Scottish Government announced a review of hate crime legislation, chaired by Lord Bracadale.1 Lord Bracadale requested that, to assist the Review it its task, we produce a comparative report detailing principles underpinning hate crime legislation and approaches taken to hate crime in a range of jurisdictions. Work on this report commenced in late March 2017 and the final report was submitted to the Review in July 2017.

    Chapter 5 (Choice of Protected Characteristics) notes that the characteristics presently protected (in one form or another) under hate crime law in Scotland are race, religion, sexual orientation, disability and transgender identity.

    The chapter considers the range of characteristics protected in a range of other jurisdictions, noting that the characteristics protected in Scots law are the characteristics that are most commonly protected in the other jurisdictions analysed and that the two characteristics that are not presently protected in Scots law, but are most commonly protected in other jurisdictions, are age and sex .

    The chapter goes on to examine the principles which should guide a decision as to which characteristics should be protected. It notes a range of possibilities which have been identified in this respect, concluding that the most persuasive accounts are those that focus on identify groups that experience unjustified marginalisation or possess forms of difference that have a justifiable claim to respect.

  156. Papko says:

    “Many readers of Wings will of course instinctively find themselves deeply comfortable with any proposal which upsets the Orange Order and the Daily Mail. But we’d suggest that any issue that manages to unite the Orange Order AND the Catholic Church AND the National Secular Society AND Humanist Society Scotland AND feminists AND loyal SNP columnists AND legal academics AND lawyers AND the police in opposition to it might just be a little bit dodgy, to put it delicately.”

    Its ironic in a way that the SNP have managed to unite the whole country under one banner so to speak.

    The Orange order and the Catholic church are standing to together on this, “stand with me brother, for there is much we have in common”.

  157. schrodingers cat says:

    I may be a (“Tractor” – Ed) to the SNP, but I would never abandon Scotland’s Indy.

    refusing to vote snp on the constituency vote in the next holyrood is abandoning indy

    no matter how you justify it, you will pull defeat from the jaws of victory

    when the unionists form a grand coalition… what will you say then? it was the wokist genderwoowoo sturgionistas who were to blame? they made us vote tory?

    we are almost there. dont give up bob. ignore the trolls

  158. CameronB Brodie says:

    Without legal protection for biological characteristics, natural born women are in danger of misogynistic treatment and violence, which is a specific type of hate crime.

    Full text.

    Industrial Psychiatry Journal. 2017 Jul-Dec; 26(2): 111–113.
    Misogyny, feminism, and sexual harassment

  159. schrodingers cat says:

    Papko says:
    The Orange order and the Catholic church are standing to together on this, “stand with me brother, for there is much we have in common”.

    they are also both rife with kiddy fiddlers

    you think that cos both these knuckle draggers dont like this legislation is a reason to crow?

    you jest papko? if both these orgs dont like the legislation, it would push me to support it. whatever it is

  160. Clapper57 says:

    @ Twathater @ 9.30pm

    I also use the corkscrew method for opening a bottle of wine…though never on a roundabout…..


  161. Iain mhor says:

    I believe, as drafted, it will be deemed unenforceable. Well, actually has been deemed unenforceable, by the Polis no less.
    The curious thing is, that there have been historically, quite a few unenforceable bills which made it into UK legislation and many subsequently repealed.

    The ‘enforceability’ of a law does not preclude it from gaining statute. It does though remain until repealed.
    This ‘Hate Crime Bill’ may gain statute, it may not – if it does, I dare say it will be used as an appendage – that is to say, to expand a charge sheet.

    For those unfamilar with the concept; where a greater crime is augmented with lesser crimes, in order that a single, preferred charge is not struck.
    A petty trick – ‘Here are many, pick one to proceed with, you can’t strike them all’. A hate crime and other petty peripherals will be struck, in order to make the a preferred charge stick.

    For example; You can be charged with being drunk in charge of a vehicle. ‘So what?’ If you have the keys in your possession, ‘well duh, so what?’ In your home. ‘wait what?’ *

    Absolutely, but the police (generally) would never enter that as a single charge, its pretty unenforceable – however, in order to gain a conviction for a different offence/s, it may be appended somewhere on a charge sheet.

    *Refer Long haulage drivers (mobile homes) where the defence is that at the time its use (parked up) is ‘residential’. Which is indeed a defence and in the main passes – however it is an offence.

    Similarly, if you have in your possession the keys to a vehicle/ deemed ‘in charge of a vehicle’ (in possession is not specifically defined as bodily possession) then you are intoxicated in charge of a vehicle – even if you are spark out on the couch (handing keys to the barman is very astute!)

    Now, I am not linking to any of this (because its late and I can’t be arsed) and you may say “what a lot of shite Iain’ – but don’t ask me how I know – ask a traffic polis, or your next door legal next time you are passing.

    I suppose my point is; this bill may still end up as legislation (however abhorred, or considered unenforcable) until its inevitable repeal. It is highly runlikely to stick on its own though.

    Well, I hope…

  162. Dogbiscuit says:

    Nicola Sturgeon seeks to pursue a UN agenda and it has fuck all to do with Independence.

  163. schrodingers cat says:

    Iain mhor says:
    30 July, 2020 at 12:43 am
    I believe, as drafted, it will be deemed unenforceable. Well, actually has been deemed unenforceable, by the Polis no less………………


    really? i could give a fuck

    meanwhile in other news the telegraph says

    “The clock is ticking down. The ports are being prepared, customs officials are being hired on both sides of the English Channel, and companies are being warned to make sure they have new systems in place. After yet another tense round of negotiations, this week it looked more likely than ever the UK would end its transition agreement with the EU without a trade deal. The two sides remain as far apart as ever on fishing, and a level playing field on regulations and state aid. After months of talks, there is no sign of positions shifting”

    come back here in feb with yer gender anti snp pish and be prepared to get telt to do one

  164. Dogbiscuit says:

    Let’s face it she took us for mugs .Sturgeon is the female Tony Blair. The article about the salon in Fife is a sign of the prisoners lifestyle the Government wants to impose on us.
    Does anyone here remember what Hitler said about the ‘big lie’ ?

  165. Dogbiscuit says:

    Many different political persuasions with a common interest in liberty. Good.

  166. Dogbiscuit says:

    You will all learn that covid 19 is an exaggerated ‘emergency’. The party shills know that of course but they don’t want the gullible public to know.
    Government wants to restrict and micro manage our lives but they won’t regulate the city of London.

  167. schrodingers cat says:


    of course, you unionists really like ’em young 🙂

  168. ian mhor says:

    Oh all right then, seen I put the shiters up ye.
    But really, even walking home pished…
    Intent ye see… interpretation really and its not you who gets to interpret – that’s an argument later, for court.

    Changed your breeks yet?

  169. Dogbiscuit says:

    Boris Johnson rules by fiat.
    Edinburgh city council scum suckers are taking political advantage of ‘lockdown’ to put in more damned cycle paths in the furtherance of the war the council waged against the motorist.
    That war is being cheered by the usual brainless middle class bicycle fanatics.
    You’ll also learn that ‘climate change’ is much exaggerated in order to part the public from more of our wages .
    Why is the world so full of simple minded morons? The gullible the trusting those who think they’re too clever to get caught out by Government propaganda.
    This site seems slightly less full of such than five months ago.
    A cashless society is a STASI wet dream topped off with a five minute climax.
    Contact tracing let’s the cat know where the Maus is always.
    Anyone buying into the dog Sturgeons NWO is a fool.
    We are being herded like cattle toward mandatory vaccines . Unforgivable. UNFORGIVABLE!

  170. Dogbiscuit says:

    Schrodingle what are you talking about fool?

  171. Dogbiscuit says:

    What does ‘do one’ mean? Is that some quaint old fashioned tough guy talk from yesteryear? The 1950s maybe?
    Why only one?

  172. Dogbiscuit says:

    Shrodingle .Ha I’m quite witty sometimes.

  173. Beaker says:

    dogbiscuit overdosing on sugar again?

  174. schrodingers cat says:

    @big john
    keep walking gob shite

    naw, yer as funny as runnin’ oot o’ bog roll

  175. CameronB Brodie says:

    “come back here in feb with yer gender anti snp pish and be prepared to get telt to do one”

    The sound of an empty vessel.

  176. twathater says:

    Ladies and gentlemen WE have the ability to sort out this clusterfuck , the ONLY time politicians listen is when it affects their earnings , otherwise they carry on ignoring individuals because we don’t have enough clout , we HAVE to show them , up with this WE will not put .WE are the ones who pay their wages , WE are the ones who vote for them and elect them , THEY WORK FOR US not the other way about , THEY will ONLY listen when WE act , and it is TIME FOR ACTION

  177. twathater says:

    I posted on WOS a couple of weeks ago that we need to threaten the hegemony , we NEED to address their contempt

    I proposed that we make individual single DECLARATIONS that could be presented to NS and the SNP stating categorically that WE the individual would NOT vote for the SNP in either the constituency vote or the list vote in the forthcoming HR elections unless and until the GRA and HATE CRIME BILL is DITCHED and a definative date is announced for an indy ref to be conducted before DEC 2020 aligned with a legal challenge to be mounted in the Scottish court of sessions the ICJ and UN challenging the veracity of the TREATY OF UNION

    I know that this sounds dramatic but unless WE do something demonstrably and publicly independence and Scotland could well be fcuked

    Rev Stu I ask your opinion and assistance if you believe this could work

  178. twathater says:

    Anybody on twatter could you maybe put this idea on twatter or faceplant to see if it would gain any traction , we need to stop talking and start acting

  179. Breeks says:

    twathater says:
    30 July, 2020 at 2:53 am
    I posted on WOS a couple of weeks ago that we need to threaten the hegemony , we NEED to address their contempt…

    I agree with you. Something must be done.

    In all seriousness, I wondered whether a noisy, yet deliberate attempt at impeachment would have the desired effect. The sovereignty of Scotland has been compromised and there must be profound ramifications for the Scottish “government” which allowed it to happen. I think that has to be impeachment.

  180. Bob Mack says:


    Let me clarify. I will vote SNP constituency. I will vote Indy party rsgional.

    I am not so foolish to let a Unionist party take the reins of Scotland no matter how divergent from the goal of Indy the SNP have become.

    If the SNP are going to let us down, then we have to put those in place that we can rely on to further Indy.

    That begins at the next elections as a first step.

  181. Contrary says:


    This you tube video addresses the issue of how much debt would Scotland owe on becoming independent. Some people prefer an audio-visual format, and this is just 10minutes long.

    The short answer is: none. IF there was some insistence that Scotland should pay its ‘fair share’, then England would owe us. In the highly unlikely situation that it was agreed to pay compensation to England for its debt, it would only be the interest payments that would ever be owed, and they would be tiny.

    We all need to know this, and use this as open source material, for any time you see someone throw in the argument of Scotland being ‘too poor’ and start bandying about random made up numbers at you. You should become aware of when someone is just quoting random numbers at you, and be able to respond with enough information tackling the main thrust of their ‘argument’.

    I know that I am being demanding on this – but it is important. It doesn’t suit everyone to know about the economy, but we need a large enough proportion of our populace – of us – to understand some hard facts on WHY Scotland would not be poor or burdened by debt. If you believe that’s ‘someone else’s job’, then whose? Who is going to do it, and why should they? You can only convince someone else to do by knowing enough yourself to convince them.

    IF you are serious about wanting to realise an independent Scotland, you need a solid understanding of why and how it CAN be a reality, we are our own advocates. Everyone can and should play a part. Many people commenting on here visit other blogs and are fairly active online – and you could be using this information to beat back the naysayers.

    This is just one question answered – but as usual it’s not a simple answer – there are many arguments about this that will veer off in different confounding directions that they don’t understand – make sure you know when they don’t understand, and know how to respond or where to go for the information you need.

    The anti-independence hype is going to ramp up to screeching levels pretty soon now – be absolutely certain that your desire for independence is not a pipe dream, and know why.

    Debt is just one facet. Another, still oft-quoted, to try and end a discussion is ‘yeah but what currency will you use’ – the answer is ‘our own, of course’ : do not be put off by that question, and don’t be scared to answer in that way, in fact please do even even if you don’t yet understand why it’s the right answer.

    To quote Richard Murphy:

    “Scotland won’t be BURDENED by debt by becoming independent, Scotland will be LIBERATED FROM debt by becoming independent”

  182. Andy Ellis says:


    I think one thing we can safely assume is that if the SNP have a majority in Holyrood in 2021, particularly if they are given an absolute majority, we can kiss goodbye not just to indyref2 this decade, but to any chances of reforming the party.

    Given the evidence of the past few years, anyone who thinks the party is going to be reformed from the inside hasn’t been paying attention. A victory on 2021 will be taken by the gradualists and the Woke stasi in the leadership as vindication of their vision, and we can expect them to give it to us good and hard: self-ID, GRA, Hate Crime Act and no vote on indy until the Gold Standard unicorn is chained.

  183. Effijy says:

    BBC Propaganda news being monitored.

    They are discussing native wild life in the UK,
    Most of which faces extinction.

    Their expert has just stripped Scotland, again.
    On discussing the Scottish Feral Cats we have
    It seems England had them at one time too and
    They are not Scottish, their title is the European
    Wild cat.

    Can I appeal that as Westminster is dragging us
    Out of Europe we can’t use anything they use.

    Some giggling by presenters when the female asks
    The male about the last time he had seen a beaver.

    Goes on to say this time is when the Xmas Pantos start
    To take shape.

    I’d suggest they began when the made Bojo PM.

  184. Although Humza is the Secretary for Justice who is proposing the bill,

    `The Bill is a response to the recommendations made in Lord Bracadale’s independent review of hate crime laws.`

    Lord Brecandale is in real life Alistair Campbell a retired judge,

    brought to prominence by the Lord of Glenscorrodale who in real life is a yoon Labour chancer called Jack McConnell,

    Lord Brecandale was involved in the controversial conviction of al-Megrahi in Holland,

    he was also Judge involved in the controversial conviction of Tommy Sheridan for perjury with the procecution lawyer being Alex Prentice (the same lawyer who spectacularly failed in convicting Alex Salmond),

    when you see who is behind the bill and the connections to Scottish Labour with subsequent connections to Sheridan and Salmond trials,

    even with or without my tin foil hat on i get a sence this bill is there just to make a mockery of Humza and Scottish Government,

    one feels the whole corrupt upper Scottish Judiciary are needing replaced urgently.

  185. Bob Mack says:

    @Andy Ellis,

    Quite simply the new Indy first party would not have the financial clout to set up for constituency votes. Sad but true I’m afraid. They will with our backing grow apace.

    Instead of the SNP using us ,we use them. We keep the Indy lot boiling till we the public decide who suits our needs better.

    Yes it’s another delay but sadly one that must be endured.

    I have lost faith in politicians. Promise you the world and give you a grain of sand as a compensation.

    The real Indy movement must not stop because those at the front have halted. They will be crushed by weight of numbers.

  186. Davie Oga says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    30 July, 2020 at 8:43 am
    Although Humza is the Secretary for Justice who is proposing the bill,

    `The Bill is a response to the recommendations made in Lord Bracadale’s independent review of hate crime laws.`

    This is an SNP / Scottish Government Bill.
    No one else is responsible for it. It is authoritarian, clumsily written nonsense. It would be a laughable piece of legislation if it wasn’t so serious. Student politics in a national government. Which is exactly Humza Yusuf’s real life experience before government. Student politics, third sector, to Justice minister, while climbing the greasy pole of party politics.

  187. Stu hutch says:

    On st Andrew’s day 30th Nov all snp members should cancel there membership.if they carry on with this shitshow.its the only way we can have a say on what is happening at the top of the snp.independence=democracy.

  188. Ottomanboi says:

    The Catholic view.
    The seeming silence of Church of Scotland, Episcopalian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim opinion on this matter is rather perplexing. From the Muslim perspective the Qur’an has passages which might be said to constitute hate speech against non believers. Chanting such passages even in a mosque might constitute an offence. The possession of the text itself equally so.
    Masks and now duck tape and potential book burning, the flat earthers are attempting a take over.
    And whisper it not that there be two sexes.

  189. Bob Mack says:

    Those who are interested in why the SNP members have changed, (and I do not mean all of them by any means) ,should look at what happened during the infamous Sandford prisoner\ guard experiment.

    This describes exactly what happens to individuals given power over others. It’s scary.It’s what is happening today.

  190. @Davie Oga,

    my point being this bill was written/shaped not by Scottish Government or Humza but by one of Scotland`s leading Lord and (ex)Judges Lord Bracadale or in real life Alistair Campbell,

    who in writing/creating this abomination is either a buffoon or he is at it.

  191. Famous15 says:

    Talking about student politics makes me consider a quote from above.

    “Surely if I have the right to be offended you have the right to offend”

    Dragging old Hohfeld out of bed makes me point out the answer is “No”.

    The corelative of a right is the DUTY of others to respect that right.

    We should be exploring an objective test for criminal hate.

    Mentioning of the Police Federation makes me reminisce about the pre 1970’s when the common law of Scotland under a charge of Breach of the Peace allowed the jailing of a sizeable number of Scots every weekend for wickedly with or without malice afore thought “ and did shout bawl, curse and swear to the alarm of the lieges”

    Those were the days,eh? Sorry for making Stu nervous.

    Now we have to await the anointing of Baroness Ruthie as Secretary of State against Scotland to clip the wings of

  192. Jimmy Jo says:

    The BBC morning News programme runs from 6am until 9am.

    BBC Scotland gets a three minute slot every hour, and that three minutes is a repeat of the News they gave you in the previous three minute slot.

    So within that three hours of news, Scotland gets NINE MINUTES of repeated News.

    The rest of the BBC Breakfast show is dedicated to all things English.

    English sport
    English politics
    English health
    English tourism
    English live location reporting
    English economy
    English english english

    So, should the licence fee payment reflect who pays what?

    Should Scots pay a tiny percentage of the licence fee to match the amount of relevant information and news that is dedicated to Scotland.

    No wonder less and less Scots pay this grotesque charge.

    And the BBC then goes on to run their News 24 programme, where Scotland doesn’t get a mention,,,

    It’s full steam ahead wall to wall engerland news.

    I personally don’t pay the bastards a penny, that particular payment ended on the 19th September 2014.

    What I am highlighting is the unadulterated Bias that exists within the corridors of England’s BBC.

  193. Colin Alexander says:

    Sturgeon’s SNP promised a return to campaigning for indy in Summer of 2016. It didn’t happen. SNP promised if being Brexited – indyref2. Didn’t happen. Sturgeon’s SNP got the mandates for indyref2. Never used them. We were told we wouldn’t be dragged out of the EU. We were.

    Sturgeon strung people along. Announcements about announcements. Playing for time to the next election. Dangling the indy carrot to get the donkeys to follow. Had indy supporters making fools of themselves trying to make excuses for her, with talk of hidden plans etc.

    Sturgeon swore she believes in the sovereignty of the people. Never once has she fought to uphold it.

    Voted to mutilate puppies. Slaughter of hares. Cruelty to calves that even the English Tories outlawed. Named Person Scheme. GRA . Hate Bill. The SNP trying to fill the vacuum of not doing what they were elected to do by trying to control society and force it to fit SNP woke ideology; no listening when told they are wrong.

    It appears Sturgeon has developed “Thatcher Syndrome”. A party leader who thinks she’s right all the time and no longer listens to anyone. A party leader who thinks she’s untouchable as long as she appeases the imperials and plays the indies as fools.

    A leader of the SNP who sold the party’s soul, the SNP’s very own Blair. Sold Scotland’s sovereignty down the North Sea and up the Thames to Westminster to further her own political ambitions.

    Shame on Sturgeon. Shame on Scotland’s electorate for following her like sheep into Imperial slavery.

    How appropriate it is that Sturgeon lives like a queen in a slave owner’s mansion.

    A crumb of comfort for youse: you face being slaves of the Empire; Scotland’s sovereignty extinguished but. Your slave owners are based in London but, at least your slave manager is no the Tories: they have the SNP to do that for them as colonial administrators pretending to be a Scottish Govt.

  194. Polly says:

    @ Cat

    ‘refusing to vote snp on the constituency vote in the next holyrood is abandoning indy
    no matter how you justify it, you will pull defeat from the jaws of victory’

    I agree wholeheartedly with that. Despite what I fear SNP might now be, compromised in some way, still the only people crowing if they fail to win will be unionists. But I was just beginning to agree with you there, but then….

    ‘if both these orgs dont like the legislation, it would push me to support it. whatever it is’

    Really? That’s as bad as saying because tories here and right wing USA believe strongly in marriage as the best family value you’d be against it in any form.

    The law as drafted is far wider and more dangerous than just to those opposing TRAs. But talking about ‘kiddie fiddlers’ you’ve obviously not noticed that the TRAs have within their ranks those creepy MAP men (in their latest incarnation) the same who latched on to lots of earlier movements like Tatchell’s (if not he himself) in the 90s here or the change of age law supported by Sartre and de Beauvoir (not to mention Foucault and Derrida) in France in the 70s, and probably for many decades/centuries before it. The law they’re stupid enough to have drafted is a danger to everyone.

  195. Robert graham says:

    Scott Finlyson thanks for the background information Just like yesterday’s info from Brian Doonthetoon and details of what’s been going on in some SNP branches sorry I can’t find the post or who posted it , Apologies,
    However it’s starting to give me a flavour of exactly how other members are being treated by some MPs and MSPs and indeed by head office in Edinburgh , my own experience of the only timeI have had direct contact didn’t give me any reassurance, not quite listening was my impression ,

    maybe it’s my own fault for not getting involved in the workings at branch level , however I have never had any complaint about anything about my local branch they have been very good and communication is clear and immediate more or less if it ain’t broke let them get on with it , I know it’s lazy and you really should make the effort to get more involved, I can’t see a problem with my local branch the sticking point seems to be when you start to go above branch level.

  196. mike cassidy says:

    Joanna Cherry

    SNP need to accept Brexit ship has sailed in fight for indyref2

  197. Cuilean says:

    As a child, my older sister would sometimes address me thus, ‘Oi, Specky, turn that telly down!’

    This might have elicited the, perfectly reasonable under the circumstances, retort, ‘Shut it, Fatty.’

    How blesses are today’s children. Once this idiotic SNP ‘mind-speak’ becomes law, warring siblings can phone Police Scotland to lock up each other for many years.

    THis law has turned the SNP into a parochial laughing stock. Perhaps this is the intent of the woke fifth column which have changed the SNP’s priorities beyond belief? The SNP is being destroyed from within.

  198. Robert graham says:

    No Problem with anything you have said Jimmy Jo ,
    it’s been going on so long folk have stopped noticing it , on any given day the Jocks are lucky if they are mentioned even once, sometimes we don’t figure at all , and English people don’t or can’t figure out why we Question what this Union is for, what’s it’s purpose if we are treated not as partners but those moaning Jocks it doesn’t make much sense in continuing the charade , it’s a panto without the laughs and stopped being funny years ago.

  199. schrodingers cat says:

    Polly says:
    if both these orgs dont like the legislation, it would push me to support it. whatever it is

    you miss the point, 3 weeks ago, bojo cancelled daily updates from WM, including daily figures. them the unionist msm started trying to politicise nicola’s daily updates by asking non covid related questions. then the wingers on here, backed up by their pet yoon trolls, start shouting for nicola to forget the virus updates and get back to the day job, then this week ruth and carlaw start shouting at the bbc to stop televising nicola’s virus updates.

    yesterday, bojo advertised for someone to hold the covid daily updates for him.

    and now everyone has STFU.


  200. Jimmy Jo says:

    At next year’s Hollywood election the SNP will need to make it abundantly clear that a vote for the SNP is a vote for indyRef2 to be held within 12 months of the elections.

    Because the SNP get the votes of many many Unionists, who enjoy the benefits of being governed by the SNP, while staying within the UK.

    So the SNP need to spell it out that they stand for Scottish Independence and that indyRef2 will be held within a specified time after they come to power.

    This should give us a “true” vote, because we will all know the ground rules by the time of the election.

  201. Polly says:

    I note quite a few above pointing out, as Stuart himself has, that the errors (if they were that) which led to Salmond being caught in retrospective legislation or badly drafted bills for GRA or against hate crime were all the fault of SNP. It’s certainly true they’ve made many errors and if the behaviour they’ve shown was deliberate then they’re not very good at conspiracy or authoritarianism, if drawn into it and encouraged by bad actors posing as good friends to independence then they’ve shown themselves incompetent in avoiding traps. Neither shows them in a good light.

    However, whether the party leaders are now themselves bad actors or whether they’re rabbits in the headlights with all the skullduggery around them and don’t know how to move forward, it’s indubitable that unionists will have had some influence behind the scenes in all of this from the beginning in some form or other, it just depends how influential you think them. Either way since SNP as a party is all we have at the minute to try to stand against unionism then I agree with others who say we have to vote for them on constituency, despite GRA, hate bill, slowness of push for Indy, otherwise only unionist win.

    But we should set about really supporting another Indy party, not just for the list either, but not to put all eggs in one basket in future.

  202. Fionan says:

    Bob Mack @9.30am
    Respectfully, I think you mean the Stanford Prison experiment – just in case anyone wants to look it up. Yes, it shows just what happens to ordinary individuals when they are given a bit of power. Power corrupts.

  203. Jimmy Jo says:

    Robert Graham 10.21am

    Here here.

    Since indyRef1, we have been screaming at SNP politicians to fight back against BBC bias, and since indyRef1 the SNP have done absolutely NOTHING.

    Even under Alex Salmond they were silent.

    The SNP were nowhere to be seen at any of the BBC Scotland Protest rallies at Pacific Quay.

    And now we have Sturgeon, she is the darling of the BBC because of her
    stance against Scottish Independence.

  204. Breeks says:

    mike cassidy says:
    30 July, 2020 at 9:59 am
    Joanna Cherry

    SNP need to accept Brexit ship has sailed in fight for indyref2

    Oh well. The SNP will just have to get by without my vote. That ship sailed on January 31st.

  205. Bob Mack says:


    Yes , quite correct .Thank you. A combination of predicatext and failing eyesight have undone me.

  206. Polly says:


    ‘you miss the point’

    Perhaps I do this time, for though I normally know where some of your arguments are contradictory, this time they seem entirely unrelated. I personally never liked Sturgeon hanging on to the covid briefings, feeling she was doing it to raise her own profile only, and Ms Freeman was the better person as Health Secretary and more than capable. I know unionists politicised it as they do everything. I myself never mentioned it but saw the posts. Most wingers were complaining about the fact Nicola said she’d focus on covid to the exclusion of everything else. It was the exclusion of all else bit they objected to.

    So your argument is if the unionists are against it I’m for it? That goes from covid briefings (and would they have objected so much if it was Freeman not Sturgeon?) and hate crime laws? To criticising SNP. That your equivalence? People won’t shut up for long you know, they never do.

  207. Bob Mack says:

    A Unionist administration running Scotland is unthinkable.

    They will destroy our ability to even think of Independence one way or another.The SNP must be kept in power for now.

    By us!!

  208. Polly says:

    The Stanford Prison experiment was horrifying to watch. I know the UNiversity shut it down eventually but I think they should have acted sooner.

  209. Fionan says:

    Article in The Times saying that the snp high heid yins are trying to prevent Joanna Cherry from standing in Edinburgh Central by asking for £10,000 from prospective candidates. I amn’t linking because I dont know how to archive and I am not going to provide clickbait. But I am sure interested readers can look it up.

    If this goes ahead and Joanna has problems in being able to stand, how about a crowdfunder for her? My understanding is that she has the support of most of her constituency and snp branches in the area, so this would be support for a democratic choice. Maybe her constituents and branch members could put this to her.

    Also, if the snp high heid yins de-select her, maybe her constituency supporters could urge her to do as Neal Hanvey did and stand anyway, as independent. That, along with a new independence party list vote, would send a powerful message from the disillusioned Yessers to the snp heirarchy that we arent going to quietly submit to their moral and emotional pressures and manipulations to get them back on to the gravy train for another comfortable five years of ‘No to Indy’.

  210. schrodingers cat says:

    So your argument is if the unionists are against it I’m for it?
    not necessarily, but usually a good guide. re corona virus briefings being the case in point

  211. CameronB Brodie says:

    To be honest, I completely missed where Sartre, de Beauvoir, Foucault and Derrida, promoted kiddie fiddling. Though that doesn’t mean they didn’t acknowledge we start discovering our sexuality at an early age. I remember my mate’s eldest son playing with himself every time the Spice Girls were on TV, when he was about 6-7 years old. It was rather amusing and endearing, but definitely not encouraged.

    I’m pretty sure all of these philosophers were conscious of the inappropriateness of adults fiddling with children. I’m happy to be corrected though.

  212. Fionan says:

    I do think we must hold our noses and vote snp for constituency seats to avoid the unionists gaining, and to prevent what would be an inevitable tsunami of propaganda saying Scots were moving against indy and even devolution – the perfect excuse to rein in and to disempower the Scot Parliament even further. But this must be tempered with a severe warning to the snp hierarchy, indeed not just a warning but a solid means to moderate or block their wilder policies and as so many have said, to give them a real hard kick up the bahoojie to get on with indy. And to get true indy people in place to ensure the section 30 merry-go-round is halted once and for all.

  213. Jimmy Jo says:

    Cam B 11.27am

    Easy tiger lol

    A bit too much information there Cam.

  214. Johnstone Macphersoh-Stewart says:

    If anyone is offended by the Bill and it is subsequently passed, will we be able to pursue any MSP who voted for it through the courts?

  215. CameronB Brodie says:

    Jimmy Jo
    Sorry. That was a toned down version of my original draft. 🙂

  216. schrodingers cat says:

    Watch NASA’s Perseverance Rover Launch to Mars!

    at noon

  217. Bob Mack says:


    If Me Cherry requires finance I will gladly contribute.

  218. Jimmy Jo says:

    The birth of this new styled SNP seem to be result of a night of passion between the Scottish Greens and Rennie’s LibDems.

    Sturgeon should rename her Party the “Liberal Greens”, because they sure as fuck ain’t no Scottish Independence Party.

  219. CameronB Brodie says:

    Gender-ideology is a thing, we all have one. That does not mean gender-ideology provides a sufficiently robust platform on which to support good law. Insisting that it does, undermines long-established social norms and perpetuates sexist stereotyping.

    Combating Gender Stereotypes and Sexism

    Gender stereotyping presents a serious obstacle to the achievement of real gender equality and feeds into gender discrimination. Gender stereotypes are preconceived ideas whereby males and females are arbitrarily assigned characteristics and roles determined and limited by their sex.

    Sex stereotyping can limit the development of the natural talents and abilities of boys and girls, women and men, their educational and professional experiences as well as life opportunities in general. Stereotypes about women both result from and are the cause of deeply engrained attitudes, values, norms and prejudices against women. They are used to justify and maintain the historical relations of power of men over women as well as sexist attitudes which are holding back the advancement of women.

  220. Polly says:

    @ Famous15 says:

    ‘We should be exploring an objective test for criminal hate.’

    That sounds really interesting, could you elaborate? Reading Iain mhor‘s comment and that one sparked my interest. Knowing nothing about law, but looking up Hohfeld I see he taught jurisprudence in America and encouraged precision in some of their terms. Is his legal relations of duty/right/privilege/no right etc directly equivalent in Scottish law. I know we must have something similar and the ‘more of’ idea I get after Craig Murray’s explanation of it so can see problems ahead if it gets on statute books.

  221. Benhope says:

    I wonder if Pete Wishart is in the running for the position of hosting the No 10 briefings.

    Seems very well qualified for the position !!!!!

  222. Walter Jones says:

    Sturgeon is running out of people to insult.

    She seems to have turned every Indy supporter against her.

    She is left with a core support of Devolutionists and weirdos.

  223. Willie says:

    And today the SNP NEC are debating whether to bar sitting MSPs from standing for a Hollyrood seat.

    I wonder who introduced this motion and I wonder how it will be reacted too. And if sitting MPs are to be barred from standing as MPs I wonder what the fall out will be.

    Interesting times as the SNP fights to change direction.

  224. Willie says:

    Sorry typos, sitting MPs from standing as MSPs.

    Finger trouble.

  225. Polly says:

    @ Cat

    ‘not necessarily, but usually a good guide. re corona virus briefings being the case in point’

    Sometimes only, and not GRA, retrospective legislation, or hate crime bill.

  226. mike cassidy says:

    Hate Crime Bill

    We don’t need no stinking Hate Crime Bill

  227. Stoker says:

    Walter Jones says on 30 July, 2020 at 12:10 pm:
    “Sturgeon is running out of people to insult. She seems to have turned every Indy supporter against her. She is left with a core support of Devolutionists and weirdos.”

    FUD’s the lot of them, absolute FUD’s = Federalists, Unionists & Devolutionists.

    Meanwhile here’s just one perfect example folks of why, after we take back our right of self-determination, there has to be a hard border between Scotland & England. Something along the lines of Canada & the USA.

  228. Alec Lomax says:

    Anti-SNP gatherings to be held. In your local bus stops and phone boxes.

  229. Ottomanboi says:

    Without independence Scotland is nothing and a nothing with a self imposed gag on free expression.
    To what extent might this proposed law impact on pro independence rhetoric? Every word being weighed lest it might give cause for offence somewhere in the depths of the body politic. Scottish nationalism = racism, we’ve had that from some quarters already, with the law behind them the offended are on a winner.

  230. Polly says:

    CameronB Brodie says:

    ‘I’m pretty sure all of these philosophers were conscious of the inappropriateness of adults fiddling with children. I’m happy to be corrected though.’

    Well I’m not sure of the rest but Sartre and de Beauvoir were pretty disgusting in their personal behaviour to young women. De Beauvoir being dismissed from teaching for having a relationship with one young female student of hers and then passing her on to Sartre and telling him in detail another time how to seduce another young woman. Very unsavoury and they knew what the act they supported would mean, I’m sure most of the rest did too even if they never envisaged doing anything untoward themselves.

  231. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wasn’t aware of that, thanks.

  232. Bob Mack says:

    @Alex Lomax,

    Buchanan St station might be big enough!!

  233. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope female readers appreciate I’m not trying to mansplain, and I obviously don’t know it all. I do have a pretty good grasp of reality though.

    The Wolf of Masculinity is Dressed Up in the Sheep’s Clothing of Gender Ideology; Progressiveness is Now an Exercise in Destructive Male Entitlement

  234. Polly says:

    @ Stoker says:

    ‘Meanwhile here’s just one perfect example folks of why, after we take back our right of self-determination, there has to be a hard border between Scotland & England. Something along the lines of Canada & the USA.’

    I entirely agree with you. Especially since we all remember the night after our referendum and people being bussed in from England or NI. They’d do it again you can bet, or worse.

  235. Polly says:

    @ CameronB Brodie

    No worries Cameron I wasn’t either when I first read and approved The Second Sex. And even yet I suppose you can make a claim to separate the author and their works and value the one without the other, though to be honest I find that hard at times when you see what massive hypocrites some of them are.

  236. MaggieC says:

    Carcrash Carlaw being a total a*se at Nicola’s statement in the Scottish Parliament and now it’s tricky Dicky Leonard’s turn with his usual sob story .

  237. CameronB Brodie says:

    I just caught Richard Leopard at FM questions, urging the Scottish government to adopt a human rights approach to examining the handling of covid-19. I wonder if he would consider that same approach to British constitutionalism, and English Torydum’s intention to separate Scotland further from international law and order?

  238. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s what a human rights based approach to gender equality looks like..


  239. CameronB Brodie says:

    If Richard Leopard wasn’t such an appalling hypocrite, he’d appreciate you can’t claim human rights without a legally defensible identity, and constitutional rights. Which all who live in Scotland lack, apparently (see Brexit).

    From constitutional to human rights: on the moral structure of international human rights

  240. Breeks says:

    Genuine question…

    Why are so many SNP MSP’s promoting Skotia?

    Don’t get me wrong, Skotia seems good, and I’ve held the belief for a long time that Scotland’s MP’s should be going out of their way to back Scotland’s ‘new’ media, but I’m left wondering what’s Skotia got that Phantom Power and Independence Live don’t?

    Truth be known, these days whenever I hear the SNP is backing something, I am filled with apprehension.

  241. msean says:

    That Lawson Carjack isn’t much better. 🙁

  242. iain mhor says:

    @schrodingers cat 12:54am

    You don’t have to care. I was just making the point (poorly) that whether anyone cares or not, something deemed generally unenforceable can and does still make statute. The important bit, is if those tasked with applying a potential law, don’t much care to.
    I did give examples of how that works.

    Personally, I don’t want to see this bill become statute law; but if it does, I’ll be somewhat mollified by the outside chance, that the Polis wouldn’t care to try sticking it on me, in isolation and for little reason.
    Not that the Polis wouldn’t lift or charge anyone for ‘little reason’, just there is possibly a much reduced chance of it occurring.

    In the same way, I care that the Polis don’t tend to randomly chap doors every weekend and pass out 1000’s of xeroxed notices for ‘drunk in charge’. That’s a very deliberate policy – they certainly could if they cared to – but they don’t (much) care to.

    The Polis could have said the opposite – An example being temporary powers under Covid – Many (English) Polis were very publically enthusiastic at getting them and applied them with gleeful abandon.

    So I care that that the Polis said they aren’t keen, when they could equally have been vociferous in their support.

  243. A Person says:

    Just saw that that twentieth-rate hack, wrong-about-literally-everything plonker, Kenny Farquharson, a man who is absolutely stunned that the Scottish public aren’t still grovelling to Labour councillors and union shop stewards, has called any independence supporting list party “the cheat party”.

    That such a dyed-in-the-wool unionist is quite happy for the SNP to take all pro-Indy votes, and that he feels umbrage at anybody trying to force the pace, tells you everything you need to know about the SNP.

    I actually rather enjoy Kenny’s pleasant articles about nice walks and music. He should stick to them and avoid politics in the future!

  244. Colin Alexander says:


    I can see where you are coming from re Skotia.

    A few times I’ve been minded to subscribe to The National as a pro-indy title. Then been put off, as it has appeared to be a propaganda mouthpiece of the SNP rather than a pro-indy newspaper.

  245. Polly says:


    ‘Why are so many SNP MSP’s promoting Skotia?’

    Could it be they’re nice middle class boys? I’m quite a fan myself for both the men are very effective in stating their case or arguing their corner. Of course the other people involved seem similar in type but some of them are very much TRA sorts and I wonder why they used that spelling which was darkness in Greek when I’m sure they try to bring light to darkness. Guess there was a reason they didn’t use Scotia.

  246. Clapper57 says:

    Saw today that “England suffered the highest number of excess deaths during the coronavirus pandemic out of any country in Europe – Office for National Statistics”

    Are we now going to get Karen from Glasgow phoning up the Jeremy Vine show to say Scotland is worse….based on her extensive ‘research’ via the past editions of the Daily Mail and Daily Express ….


  247. callmedave says:

    Scotsman editorial and Ian Murray blame Sturgeon and repeat care home death myths

  248. All this talk about thesefreaks of nature is to stop you talking about independence to put your minds elsewhere like today they are telling us that a mission to Mars to find out if there was any ancient civilisations there well there are present day civilisations living here on earth,and going to food banks all that money wasted on Mars and space could be spent helping them like trident another way of,keeping money that could and should be spent on the ordinary people but today’s governments policies are keep the people down yes the lunatics are in charge voted in by the insane US

  249. Robert graham says:

    I really really hope Joanna Cherry is not or has not faced any opposition to her standing in Edinburgh from anyone in the SNP management however high placed they are .

    I have seen questions asked as to why , Why are two well known personalities contesting this seat i.e. Angus Robertson & Joanna Cherry both are competent and both have or were well regarded for current and previous work , my preference being Joanna because she sees things through and manages to work well with others outside the SNP bubble, Watch who backs her and the ones who don’t that should show us what side everyone is on , because there will be sides .

    Let’s hope the individuals who are presently in the shadows (i.e.) the ones responsible for pushing for attempting to subdue Alex are in no way involved if it’s uncovered any slight move by anyone to impede her will force a split maybe that will flush out these individuals , either way something is not right and people asking questions prove this is the case .

  250. Polly says:

    Thundering speech and answers just now from Mike Russell on Uk Internal Market Statement. He’s been fantastic and will be a pity to lose him.

  251. Polly says:

    Robert graham says:

    ‘I really really hope Joanna Cherry is not or has not faced any opposition to her standing in Edinburgh from anyone in the SNP management however high placed they are .‘

    I fear a lot of the exact same people are involved and the wheeze to get MPs to cough up £10,000 to stand for Holyrood is part of that as is Robertson starting his campaign for a position to challenge the opposition without even being selected. The NEC may meet again today but it was heartening that the previous meeting overran the time without agreement, so would lead one to believe there was enough opposition to make that meeting lively. As other folk here said, I’d be more than ready to contribute if

  252. Polly says:

    If needed.

  253. Clapper57 says:

    Charlie Elphicke trial: Former Conservative MP found guilty of sexual assault on all three counts…..this was the guy suspended from the Tory party when these allegations came to light …that suspension was then lifted so that he could vote in Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement in HOC…after which he was then suspended from the Tory party again…….

    Will he now be joining Ruth in HOL’s….seems a natural progression given how many political losers the Tory party nominate for a peerage….

    Though Charlie E as a loser is now very much placed within the “moral depravity” category…..and the fact that Charlie’s former constituency elected Charlie’s wife in GE 2019 as their new MP does make you wonder as to their low moral standards…as in his former constituency deciding to keep it in the family….now that Charlie has been found Guilty the fact that his wife is their MP will do little to dispel the Ghost of Charlie their EX MP the convicted Sex Pest….serves them bloody right…

  254. CameronB Brodie says:

    Talking about our lack of a legally defensible identity, here’s how British constitutionalism impinges on our access to human rights.

    SPICe Briefing
    Human Rights in Scotland
    13 January 2017

    Dr Kirsteen Shields*
    *Lecturer at the University of Dundee, on secondment to SPICe as an Academic Fellow.

    This briefing provides an introduction to human rights law in Scotland. It covers Scotland’s relationship with the European Convention on Human Rights, the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and UN treaties, as well as the powers of the Scottish Parliament in relation to human rights, and the potential implications of Brexit for human rights law in Scotland.

  255. cirsium says:

    @Polly, 2.08
    I wonder why they used that spelling which was darkness in Greek

    Freudian slip?

  256. schrodingers cat says:

    Nicola must have given Jaxie a right skelp in Holyrood today…..Jaxie’s jacked it in….he’s oot

  257. Polly says:

    @ cat

    ‘Nicola must have given Jaxie a right skelp in Holyrood today…..Jaxie’s jacked it in….he’s oot’

    I think Mike Russell’s fighting rhetoric helped. Hope someone has copied it somewhere.

    @ cirsium

    ‘Freudian slip?’

    Hope not.

  258. SilverDarling says:

    Does that mean Annie Wells will be the acting leader of the ScotTories?.

  259. Clapper57 says:

    @ SilverDarling @ 5.31pm

    Hi Hope you are well.

    Does she, Annie Wells , not share deputy post with Liam Kerr.

    I read they are touting Douglas Ross to go for it….mind you his majority was greatly reduced at last GE but really..come on.. for him to go back from whence he came……really ???

    I always thought Michelle Ballantyne would get the leadership…Pro Boris….Pro Brexit….Pro EVIL…oops sorry Pro EVEL..nope right first time Pro EVIL….and I think that even though she lost to Carlaw some may reconsider her if she stands again…..especially as he has bailed out after such a short time….mind you did he jump or was he pushed….

    Definitely proves what we all knew THEY AIN’T WINNING while they pretended they were/are…..”Strong and Stable” with the Tories Lol……okaaaay while branch office leadership is like a piggin revolving door….one in one out one in one out etc etc….Lol

    Richard Leonard Labour branch manager will be next…if he is then Scots really really need to get a grip….cause it proves they are panicking big time about losing Scotland….

    Take care and have a nice evening 🙂

  260. Bill McLean says:

    Cirsium and Polly – Skotia is greek for Scotland and skotadi or skotos is Greek for darkness. Third letter in Skotia is an Omega “o” and the third letter in skotadi or skotos is an omicron “o”!

  261. Harry mcaye says:

    Dogbiscuit – “exaggerated emergency”. We’ve had 2,491 deaths or 4,201 including suspected deaths. Show me another small country of between 4-6 million with that number of deaths? We’re doing well now, now that we’ve been able to plot out own path but to say it’s been exaggerated just marks you down as an idiot.

  262. weechid says:

    “Breeks says:
    30 July, 2020 at 1:35 pm

    Genuine question…

    Why are so many SNP MSP’s promoting Skotia?”

    Saw the picture on FB today from the article in The National. They seemed like shiny, happy young wokerati and when someone on FB suggested that there were “too many fresh young faces” it promted the following response:-

    “Wouldn’t be pushing the old people involved – they are the ones who have kept us shakled to Westminster all these years.

    Its the young ones who can see a brighter further.

    The elderly are too scared to change – I had a long conversation with my mother who is 83 about why I wan’t independence for my kids and theirs and she still thinks labour is the answer!”

    As a pensioner for Independence I am offended. To whom do I report my offence regarding this ageist statement? It’s inciting violence as a punch on the nose seems in order to me.
    These seem to the people the SNP want. My membership lapses in December and won’t be renewed.

  263. Iain More says:

    Anything in the Bill about arresting and jailing for a very long time Anti Scottish Bigots and Scotland Haters? No! Well then scrap it.

  264. Polly says:

    @ Bill McLean

    Sorry didn’t see this til now. My question was really more wondering why they chose that spelling in English and not the more common Scotia?

    I agree, two ‘o’ types in Greek, long/short pronunciation until the koine period, and agree modern Greek ??????/??????/Scotland. Ancient Greece didn’t know Scotland nor biblical Greek where ?????? word was darkness or murkiness (in the feminine form of -ia) for skotadi from skotos as you rightly state. The ??????/skotia word has been around a long time before we were – well unless the Declaration of Arbroath and Book of Leinster were right about our origins of course. 🙂 For a while it’s been suggested the Indo-European roots of Scot- has been scotos, from the Greek darkness, so who knows?

    But do you know why they chose that spelling? I didnt mean to argue etymology, and it certainly wasn’t an insult to them, I’m a fan of both guys. Was it copyright reasons in some form? I think at first I saw them use Scotia which is why I asked?

  265. Polly says:

    Well looks like Greek script doesn’t show here. Sorry.

  266. Antoine Bisset says:

    While you mention BEMIS, it is maybe not entirely clear that they are funded by the Scottish Government, that is, by our money.
    Is it possible that someone from the Scottish Government (aka the SNP clique) has had a quiet word with them?
    At one point in the past I asked the Scottish Government how much money they gave to “charities”. They replied to the effect that they did to know I would need to ask the question in respect of every charity, individually.

  267. DW says:

    “It’s Mary Whitehouse’s wildest dreams come true.”

    Mary Whitehouse campaigned against sex, bad language, and violence on TV. Her goal wasn’t controlling society, it was controlling the media.
    I don’t believe she would have approved of cancel culture or the hate crime bill.

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