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The preposterous truth

Posted on December 17, 2014 by

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    1. 17 12 14 18:01

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    248 to “The preposterous truth”

    1. ‘…scrupulous during her 62-year reign in observing the impartiality expected of a constitutional monarch” #LOZ

    2. Bill McLean says:

      “Put not your trust in Princes”

    3. Brotyboy says:

      Jonathan Cook has some pertinent comments on the Guardian’s reporting of this here;

      http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-12-17/queen-helped-stop-scots-ominous-yes-vote/

    4. blackhack says:

      What did you expect from the head of the British state ??
      She’s not going to give up on her holiday homes now is she ??

    5. Juteman says:

      We knew the truth.
      Do the folk that voted No realise what was going on. Reporting Scotland will have an in depth feature on this.

    6. mary docherty says:

      ‘Sake !!Oh Aye we’re too stupit

    7. liz says:

      Seriously what were they so scared of?

      They were ‘fearful’ and yet they do nothing but slag us off.

    8. M4rkyboy says:

      Confound their politics,upset their dirty tricks,god save the queen.

    9. Pentland Firth says:

      The Guardian’s story isn’t quite the revelation it claims. Alan Cochrane has already revealed how the press were briefed in advance about the Queen’s intended intervention and therefore able to be in position to “overhear” her invitation to voters “to think very carefully” before they voted. The press ran eagerly with the story at the time.

      Frankly, I don’t think it influenced any votes one way or the other, but it does illustrate how terrified the Establishment were.

    10. Martin McDonald says:

      I really didn’t care much one way or the other about the Monarchy before the referendum. I think the Queen has behaved appallingly though in this and it’s a real stain on her character.

      As Constitutional Monarch, if she can’t keep her opinions to herself and resist the urge to meddle in politics then she and her family should cease and desist with their claiming of state benefits.

    11. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, the result is now clearly null and void, and an immediate re-run needs to be organised ASAP.

      I’m not here to be repressed for the privilege of the Establishment elites.

    12. Kenny says:

      I thought one of the more interesting aspects of that article was the claim that Jeremy Heywood worked with Gordon Brown to co-ordinate The Vow. That doesn’t sit too well with your FOI response, does it Rev?

    13. Greannach says:

      the old boiler’s just softening us up for the interference planned by her son once she kicks the bucket.

    14. Cadogan Enright says:

      and thus The Republic of Scotland first gained wings
      2015 30 seats?
      2016 election manifesto real full dev max
      2018 referendum the year after the first Scottish cheque is written to subsidise Westminster.
      2020 payback for the queen that put England over Scotland

    15. Grouse Beater says:

      Aye, who would have thought the Queen of England would do her best to ensure the troublesome Scots remain under her control?

      “Sway the vote? Moi? We are strictly impartial, you bare arsed savages!”

    16. Morag says:

      I can’t remember now where I read it, but before the Guardian article came out one of the journalists who was at Crathie that morning said much the same thing.

      He said that the usual drill for these church parades was for the journalists present to keep a respectful distance, and in particular not to crowd up so close to Her Maj that they could overhear her small-talk with the parishoners. However on 14th September that was reversed. Officials invited the journalists to come over and get as close as they could to the Queen, and in particular advised them to listen out carefully to what she was saying.

      That was how the journalists knew that the whole thing was stage-managed.

    17. Zen Broon says:

      Amusingly the plastic radicals at Republic, presumably at the behest of their lumpen Labour members, refused to endorse Yes, while the Royals openly intervened for No. The English left is feckin pathetic.

    18. Taranaich says:

      Very much looking forward to all the other revelations that’ll surely come out of the woodwork. Maybe we’ll even finally get an answer on who wrote the Vow.

    19. drawdeaddave says:

      I wonder if Mr Cameron purrred when he heard the queen say this.

    20. Morag says:

      Pentland Firth’s comment suggests it’s probably something by Alan Cochrane that I’m remembering. What a surprise….

    21. heedtracker says:

      And then we have this from rancid Guardian’s history of teamGB 2014 almanac and who were just as repellent as all the rest of the noble and honest teamGB establishment. Sir Nick made his Whitehall colleagues “mutter” which is presumably UK.gov civil service for “mutter”

      “If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the pound.” The chancellor’s intervention was reinforced by an unprecedented breach of constitutional convention by Sir Nick Macpherson, the Treasury’s permanent secretary, who released a letter in which he concluded that a currency union would be out of the question. Fellow Whitehall permanent secretaries, known as the “Wednesday morning colleagues” after their weekly meetings, were said to have muttered of the Macpherson letter: never again.

    22. R-type Grunt says:

      Are we still meant to pretend that the result wasn’t rigged? I’d bet my house that it was!

    23. Alex Cox says:

      Princes are like flies: we can never be rid of them – Persian proverb.

    24. Grouse Beater says:

      Pentland Firth:
      Frankly, I don’t think it influenced any votes one way or the other

      Let me state bluntly, that as a fervent long-committed supporter of self-governance, Her Royal utterance even had me go over my reasons for voting Yes. I wobbled. Momentarily.

      I am certain her well-rehearsed and plotted remark made a difference for many, swaying them from an unsure Yes to a ‘playing safe’ No.

      In any event, she exhibited naked power, and how she does not care for real democracy visited upon her subjects.

    25. Edulis says:

      Needless to say Nicholas Witchell will not be all over this.

      Let’s be honest, the Queen and the whole of her retinue are Unionist Tories.

    26. Andy White says:

      Is there any complete repository of the empty threats and broken promises made before the vote?

      I’m fondly imagining a 1970s Top Of The Pops style countdown on YouTube with damning commentary and text.

    27. muttley79 says:

      Lizzie did the same thing in the late 1970s when the SNP were doing well and the devolution referendum was in the offing. I cannot remember the year, possibly 1977, 1978?

    28. Doug Daniel says:

      During the campaign, I was happy enough to go along with the “one thing at a time” strategy, thinking that she was a harmless auld wifie really. I suspected she’d been prompted to say what she said, but the article makes it clear she was the one who wanted to intervene.

      Well, fuck that. If the old bag doesn’t want to be Queen of Scots, then I certainly don’t want to bestow such a title on her. Like with the currency, we need to start laying the foundations for a clean break next time.

    29. Kenny says:

      As we approached the day of the vote and the gap narrowed, I was convinced that the old sow would deliberately keel over and die — just out of spite to get the sympathy vote and ensure her inbred brood could continue to own our seabed and all our other national resources.

      The way she clings onto power is just like those “appalling waxworks” her son was once talking about. We have an hereditary monarchy like North Korea and unelected clerics voting our laws like Iran — add to that a feudal land system.

    30. heraldnomore says:

      But remember it was not so much a purr, more the death rattle of the monarchy in Scotland.

      And that was that man Craig Murray again, at George Square. Not another generation perhaps.

    31. Bawbags says:

      ‘The man o’Independent mind he looks an laughs at aw that’

    32. Juteman says:

      Where is Michael Fagan when you need him?

    33. gerry parker says:

      So next royal visit we flood the place with Yes flags.

      🙂

    34. Jim Mitchell says:

      So I guess she and her family wouldn’t have been too upset at their Orange Order chums burning the Saltire as part of their victory celebrations in George Square the day after the result!

    35. msean says:

      After that episode,they must be feart an independent Scotland will vote to become a republic.

    36. Ken500 says:

      Just more Westminster corruption, more secrecy an lies. Are people in Scotland going to let them get away with this? Yes or No.

      The Referendum was corrupt.

    37. Kenny says:

      Muttley – I believe it was 1977… “I cannot forget I was crowned queen of the UNITED kingdom she said”… Back in the Dark Ages, we and many other states ELECTED our monarchs… we have not only not progressed, but even moved backwards from then on…

      I like republics like Ireland and Germany, which have modest presidents who live in modest residences… For me, the main argument against the monarchy is: in a thousand or ten thousand years’ time, how will be living? in a monarchy or a republic? surely it will be the latter…. so why not move towards the future, rather than back to the past?

      I keep meaning to buy Kitty Kelly’s book on the British monarchy. She has never lost a libel case. Her book apparently shows that the monarchy is a drain on resources and costs more than any suppposed gains from tourism. Interestingly, it is banned in Britain. Try ordering it through Amazon: they won’t post to a British address, believe me.

    38. Fiona says:

      @Muttley

      Not only did she do that but in this instance, after her spokesperson stated she was not interfering in any way, the BBC played that intervention in full many times: we were not supposed to notice that would have precisely the same effect as a current intervention, if any. It was ridiculous

    39. Swami Backverandah says:

      Thank goodness journalists of the calibre of Cook are appraised of the malign influence of the Guardian, which purports to be one thing whilst pushing an alternate agenda.

      It actually, on its ‘behind the scenes’ technical support site, describes itself as the world’s leading liberal newssite, or words very close to that, which I would have posted verbatim here, except that when I attempted to point it out using a screen grab from the tech site, to some of the still deluded btl commenters who insist that it’s ‘left-leaning’, it was removed. That’s liberalism for you.

      They keep the wool pulled over the eyes by hosting Pollt Toynbee, tossing in a Monbiot weekly, or a Pilger from time to time, but anyone worth their credbread wouldn’t be caught dead publishing there.

      They are an Establishment mouthpiece, make no mistake.

      Thank you Jonathan Cook.

    40. galamcennalath says:

      Let’s face it, in her 62 year reign, the events of mid September were by far the greatest threat to date for ‘her’ United Kingdom.

      An interesting phrase ‘melt down’, disclosing the panic which must have set in.

      I think that so many, from the monarch down, felt that the situation was such that exceptional measures were necessary, shows just how close we came to success.

      For me, the real consequence of that panic, is not what Lizzie Windsor thought or said, but what the WM elected politicians then did. They offered Scotland Home Rule, but clearly had no intention of actually honouring and delivering. THAT was the constitutional crime of the century!

      Payback, is going to be a bitch named Democracy!

    41. CamerponB Brodie says:

      In a state characterized by a lack of ethics, free will and self-determination are not sustainable. Without these, human dignity can not survive.

      Does she expect us to continue paying her multiple rents? Revolutions have resulted from this sort of corrupt pish. Just saying.

    42. AnneDon says:

      I seem to remember an intervention in 1979?

      Not, perhaps, so scrupulous for 62 years.

      What a surprise!

    43. gman says:

      Yeah, this stinks.
      Was the ‘well wisher’ intermediary a plant too or even exist?
      Journalists and bbc totally hand in glove with establishment and happily getting fed lines.
      We saw similar collusion and black arts with the egg incident, the vow, rbs, obama etc etc.

      I’m surprised we got so close in these circumstances.

    44. manandboy says:

      ONLY PANIC IF ALL APPEARS LOST

      If the UK was everything that we were told it was during the Indy Debate – summed up in the words ‘bigger, stronger, better’ – then there would be no reason for Westminster’s panic.
      That there was a panic across the Establishment is evidence that the UK was NOT what we were told it was.
      Evidence also that Scotland was and is VITAL to England.
      Contrast with ‘subsidy junky’.

      Only the Westminster inner circle know the true extent of England’s NEED of Scotland. The probability is that for decades, successive Westminster Governments have seriously skewed the revenues from Scotland downward.

      All the while,
      the lies just get bigger.
      The exploitation just gets greater.
      Their contempt for Scots grows deeper.

      Union? What Union? One measured in chains – that’s what Union. There is no other. Forget the smiles and waves from gilded carriages. You are looking at our oppressors.

      Our need for self-determination grows stronger with each revelation of the truth, while the fawning gullibility of so many No voters grows more sickening.

      But not as sickening as the conduct of the English Establishment.
      They make Richard Nixon look like a paradigm of virtue.

    45. cirsium says:

      thanks for the links, Rev. From the text, it looks as if it was Gordon Brown who advised the editor of The Daily Record regarding the wording of the vow. This also would explain why the Cabinet Office’s response to your FOI request was that it did not hold such information.

      While the two articles cover the machinations of the Westminster government and Better Together, it is curiously silent on the role of the BBC as the megaphone for the propaganda in the fortnight before the Referendum

      The following extract has a rare example of Mr Brown in jocular mode.
      But Downing Street was also kept informed by another route – Brown sent regular emails, in his trademark capital letters, to senior civil servants including Sir Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary. Cameron also spoke to Brown in the final stages of the negotiations over the wording of the Vow, though their conversation focused on the prime minister’s final speech of the campaign, in Aberdeen on Monday 15 September. The prime minister had sent the man he dislodged from Downing Street a copy of his speech, asking for suggestions. These were then incorporated into the speech, in which Cameron warned that independence would lead to a “painful divorce”.

      A Downing Street source says the prime minister took an “indulgent” view of his predecessor. Recalling their telephone call ahead of the Aberdeen speech, the source said: “Gordon Brown couldn’t resist saying I’m the saviour of the world and you take my advice. I think the prime minister’s view was indulgent – that is Gordon, Gordon has a role to play, there you are. It wasn’t the case that he felt, why is this man so central to this situation? It was just, we’ve got to win, he has a part to play, if I have to cope for half an hour as he tells me why the campaign should have been run in an entirely different way, then that’s fine, OK I’ll do that.”

      Mr Brown was joking, wasn’t he?

    46. Lenny Hartley says:

      Kenny

      Rubbish, I just ordered kitty Kelly book on the monarchy no problem with delivery

    47. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      cmon now,dont be so hard on her royal highness, we know she brings in 20 million a year, remember?

    48. Marie clark says:

      I don’t really care what auld lizzie says or thinks, a republic would do me fine.

      I’m also sick to the back teeth with so much time and space given to murphy in the last few days, stop playing his game for goodness sake. We all know he lies, every time he opens his mouth. Moaning about it will not help as he gets all that he needs from msm and EBC.

      Speaking of EBC, do they really think that their changes to 3 bloody hours of kay with an e will encourage listeners. I used to listen to Radio Scotland all day but switched off a couple of months into the referendum. This will not entice me to come back. Sink into the Clyde the lot of them.

      O/T Where is Robert Peffers these days? I know from what he said that he does not keep that well so I hope that he is all right. I miss his posts.

    49. JayR says:

      We need to highlight the anti-democratic, divisive and anti-Scottish nature of the monarchy, the BBC etc. We can only break these last sentimental links to the idea of “Britishness” by showing them up and making them as toxic and anti-Scottish as the Conservative Party became in the 80s.

    50. scaredy cat says:

      The irony is that the people who did “think carefully” all voted yes.

    51. Lesley-Anne says:

      She who must be obeyed, yeah right!, thinks she is queen of the United Kingdom does she? 😉

      Well whilst she IS queen the so called United Kingdom that she *ahem* reigns over is actually TWO Kingdoms, always has been and always will be. Therefore she is Queen of England and rules OVER England. However when it come to Scotland she has a slight *cough* problem. In Scotland she does NOT rule over the people of Scotland because it is the PEOPLE who are sovereign NOT her. She can NEVER order us to do anything. Methinks it is well past the time that some non-descript non entity actually informed herself of this wee point! 😀

      Whatever herself, her entourage and hangers on *ahem* think of how they can behave with regards to ruling OVER Scotland the time is now at hand for her and the rest of her numpties to understand the meaning of “WE, the people of Scotland, are sovereign!” 😛

    52. Stoker says:

      “Tear me apart and boil my bones –
      I’ll not rest til she’s lost her throne.
      My aim is true my message is clear –
      It’s curtains for you Elizabeth my dear.”

      The Stone Roses (1989).
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNcnDLWNis

    53. Dave says:

      ‘Queen’ sounds very like ‘quean’ which is defined as

      “A woman regarded as being disreputable”

      source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quean

    54. Roboscot says:

      It is important to remember that whilst the Queen’s intervention was intended to alter the biggest political decision in Scotland since 1707, the Queen is above politics and that is one of the strengths of the United Kingdom.

    55. fred blogger says:

      i used to not mind too much the queen being head of state or whatever it’s called.
      now i’m totally against the idea, i now want scotland to become republic.

    56. Lenny Hartley says:

      Surely Lizzie’s intervention is against the UN’s declaration of Self Determination?

      Wonder how the Celtic Leagues letter to the UN on the breaking of International Law by Better Together is being received at UN HQ

    57. Lesley-Anne says:

      Marie clark says:

      Speaking of EBC, do they really think that their changes to 3 bloody hours of kay with an e will encourage listeners. I used to listen to Radio Scotland all day but switched off a couple of months into the referendum. This will not entice me to come back. Sink into the Clyde the lot of them.

      I think this whole “let’s change the programming on the radio” thingy coming out of the UKIP Channel Marie shows that they just do NOT get it.

      If the whole central point of the problem for BBC Radio Scotland was the presenter, Kay with an E, then it will make absolutely NO difference how many hours they have her “on air” the programme will still have the same problem. Instead of one hour or so of her unionist attitudes for people to listen to they will now have THREE bloody hours of her brand of unionism!

    58. Stoker says:

      @ Marie clark

      Bob has been posting, not as much as usual but i’m sure i read a post or two of his earlier today (morning – other thread?).

    59. Swami Backverandah says:

      What with Cochrane’s evident distaste for journalism, and the Guardian’s obvious distaste for anyone remotely considered a journalist, I’m wondering whether Cochrane hasn’t considered applying for the editor’s job there.

    60. Gallowglass says:

      I don’t think anybody is surprised.

      Do you think that the person in the crowd who asked Her Maj was a plant?

    61. Gallowglass says:

      Also, anyone any idea what’s happening with National Collective? It looks as if it’s going to leave itself behind at the moment.

    62. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      2 brilliant must read articles on STV News web site totally demolishing and making an idiot of Cochrane and his book. The first one is a review and the second selected ludicrous quotes.

      What a coincidence that Malcolm Bruce MP for Gordon got to ask a question during today’s PMQs.

    63. Marie clark says:

      Lesley Ann, yes you are quite correct. they really just don’t get it. First they would need to remove their labour tinted glasses’

      Stoker, thank you for the news about Robert. It strange how you have never met met a person, but we have all been on a long long journey together and you do get to care about folk. I’m glad that he is okay. We all need to finish this journey of ours together.

    64. john king says:

      “cmon now,dont be so hard on her royal highness,”

      What has Princess Anne got to do with this?
      dont you mean her majesty?

    65. Clootie says:

      …why did they fight so hard to keep Scotland in the union?
      They were concerned for our welfare – Nope!
      They were concerned about theirs – Yip!

      World stage / reputation / Military clout…etc etc

      Those who still think Westminster cares about Scotland should do a bit more reading.

      The Royal Family / The Lords / The Commons / Whitehall are all parts of the same machine. The machine doesn’t concern itself with the “little people”. However they do reward those who toe the line of course.

      It still breaks my heart when I look back at the alignment we had across the YES campaign regarding what a fairer society would look like. We will NEVER achieve that under Westminster.

    66. Croompenstein says:

      So when was Cochers round at the palace for some caviar lasagne washed down with Dom Perignon and telling Lizzie to drop one just within earshot of the press liggers?

    67. bookie from hell says:

      A lot of interesting facts

      guardian –the real story of the scottish referendum

      tories/labour VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP during the two years

      Alistair Darling, who joined forces with the prime minister’s Scotland adviser Andrew Dunlop.

      Dunlop and Darling were a curious pairing. The softly spoken Dunlop, a graduate of Glasgow University who moved south and is now a Conservative councillor in Horsham, West Sussex, was a special adviser in Downing Street under Margaret Thatcher.

    68. JayR says:

      Can I please ask you all to do something positive and constructive?

      Instead of typing away on here about the Queen, send the Royal Household an email or letter letting them know how outraged you are. Send them a clear message!

      There’s no direct email address for them (funny that) by you can email their website editor at webeditor [at] royal [dot] gsx [dot] gov [dot] uk I’m sure the message will get through.

      You can write to: Her Majesty The Queen
      Buckingham Palace
      London SW1A 1AA

      You can phone: 20 7930 4832

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      In a state characterised by the lack of ethics, it is not possible for free will, self-determination and human dignity to survive.

      Someone refereed to Britain as a proto-fascist state, the other day. I think it is clear Britain is actually a de facto fascist state.

      Liz
      You might like the reply I posted to the Economist. 😉

    70. Ken500 says:

      The Monarchy costs £405Million a year. Increased £5Million in the 2011Budget. A new £2Million coach was acquired to add to the collection.

      The Referendum Agreement was supposed to be conducted under General Election rules, plus votes for 16/17 year old. Westminster broke every rule in the book. There should have been a Purdah enforce for a month+ before the Referendum when absolutely no political reference should have been report in the Press or Media. Voters should have been left entirely to their own devises to make up their minds. The Press Organisations are supposed to be charged, if they break these rules.

      The Referendum result is null and void, every election rule was broken by Westminster.

      Labour Council members/Officials donating 10% to the Party funds from their remuneration – public money? Should that not be illegal, fraud. Political Parties are not allowed to be funded from public money, under Westminster Parliamentary Party rules.

      It is also illegal for Civil Servants – Public servants – to political campaign and canvass – against the electorate. They are supposed to be totally impartial. Obviously no so in Westminster. They have illegally broken every Parliamentry election rule. More Westminster corruption, secrecy and lies.

    71. AuldA says:

      Uh.
      Vive la république ? 🙂

    72. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Independence and a Republic, same day

    73. Stoker says:

      @ Marie clark – Sorry, my mistake, just did a check, the posts i last read of Bob’s are on the “Start as you mean to go on” thread.
      __________________

      @ Lenny Hartley – Re: Celtic League letter, i’ve been wondering about that quite a few times. Wondering when we’ll hear.

    74. Gallowglass says:

      Ken500, I don’t quite agree with your statement that civil servants have to be totally impartial.

      They do in how they set about whatever task it is, but the task itself or the preferred outcome does not have to be impartial.

      Otherwise civil servants wouldn’t achieve anything for which ever parliament they are aligned too.

      Also, I don’t think the referendum can be considered null and void. Even if it was, nobody who actually gives a shit will listen.

      Can we please not start going down this road again.

    75. Lenny Hartley says:

      Gallowglass

      Funny enough received an email from National Collective yesterday, they said this

      We recently asked our subscribers to complete a survey to help shape the future of our movement. We’re delighted to announce that we have received over 1,000 responses that will prove invaluable. Shortly, we will announce the exciting news about what’s next for us. This is only the beginning.

    76. Gallowglass says:

      Also, purdah doesn’t apply to the press. Only Governments and their departments, and we’ve heard that they consider the ‘Vow’ to be an offering from the Unionist parties and not HMG.

      Tricky, sleekit, but until someone has evidence to the contrary it isn’t against the law or rules.

      Even if proof was offered, it doesn’t nullify the result.

      The result would still stand, because do you really think Westminster would go, oops, shouldn’t have done that, okay lets do it again?

      Realism people!! Come on.

    77. Gallowglass says:

      Lenny Hartley

      That is very heartening to hear, thanks for letting me know. I was getting a bit worried.

    78. Ken500 says:

      Possibly the Monarchy’s intervention will have had a minor effect on the Referedum Result, but it will have a major effect of loss of support for the Monarchy. She should have kept her mouth shut, along with the interfering civil servants. Dan Snow – Monarchy canvasser/spokesman?

    79. Barontorc says:

      There seems to be no limit to the depths the UK is heading for as she carries on sinking further into the mire, it’s almost pathetically poetic.

      After plundering and misusing in many different ways the peoples of this world, which were once dominions of England, there is simply no other road for the UK/England to travel but down.

      Those who strive to champion for UK/England will point to the developments in each of the dominated countries who have now shed her cloak, but this has to be balanced on the other side of the book to show how much the Empire has also given to mother England in return.

      There have been points in this referendum process where the UK government could have gained and kept a balanced ship, but they chose to strut and power-play with politics against their own people, a strategy which has now run wild and beyond recovery.

      So, be it. Panic will ensue yet again until reality is grasped and domination ditched for good.

    80. andy howie says:

      Interestingly I was recently at the Scottish Goverment offices in Saughton wearing my yes lanyard. Got talking to people there and they said that most people were and still are yessers!

    81. Truth says:

      Had no strong feelings either way, but it’s a republic for me now.

    82. art1001 says:

      I live abroad now. I do not see myself ever returning to Scotland while it is not free.

      I despair for the future of my homeland. The referendum was a gamble. Loss will accelerate our decline.

      It will be a process of continual cultural, social, environmental destruction. The human cost will be immense.

      I think the perverts who rule us from London will revel in our misery. Those ‘proud Scot buts’ will realise too late that they will be punished along with the rest of us. They are viewed even with more contempt by our Imperial Masters.

      Its going to be horrible.

    83. Paula Rose says:

      As we are sovereign – we can choose our own monarch, isn’t that basically what a republic is? Or am I missing something?

    84. Stoker says:

      Betting suspended on Lizzy abdicating during Xmas broadcast.
      https://archive.today/awAcW

    85. Kirsty says:

      This just shows, yet again, what a sorry excuse we have for a democracy in the UK. The fact that we’ve got an unelected, unrepresentative, unaccountable, hereditary head of state in the first place, who only comes to this country for holidays or for the odd event, is bad enough; the fact that she interfered in one of the few real democratic processes we’ve had is inexcusable.

      Still, I guess there’ll be worse to come when Charles gets his turn as it’s already been made clear that he intends to be more “hands on”.

    86. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I guess this is the appropriate song for tonight, following the various ‘breaking news’ items regarding Lillibet’s intervention.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpk5FYeaDM

    87. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gallowglass
      I was simply expressing my opinion, not calling for action. I am no legal expert, but I doubt if the indyref came anywhere close to meeting UN standards. That’s all.

    88. Grizzle McPuss says:

      Now, now folks. This kind of vitriol against the Royals will upset the Right Wing politicos. Have some respect for Betty Windsor.

    89. tombee says:

      Anyone who still believes that the dark forces of the ‘British’ establishment were not involved in this momentous period in our destiny, are deluding themselves.

    90. Gallowglass says:

      Ken500

      Which civil servants were interfering?

      As long as the request does not break the law, you have to do it. Otherwise you have refused a lawful instruction.

      Asking the Queen to make a statement that might compromise her own impartiality is not against the law.

      So the civil servants were following the policy set by the Government of the day.

      Blame the Queen, blame Cameron.

      Don’t blame people just doing their job.

      It’s ignorant and tiresome.

      (From an impartial civil servant)

    91. yerkitbreeks says:

      I read the two Guardian articles – very southern SUB ( soft under belly ) orientated, as expected from hearing the opinions of S Carrell on BBC

    92. Famous15 says:

      For a variety of reasons including notional non political military command I remain a Consitutional monarchist. What we have here is sublime cunning. We are struck before the referendum by her words and after the referendum we find out about purring and the arranged comments being heard.

      So we become republicans and therefore cannot ever hope to get over 50 % in any referendum.

      Dumb and dumber I ain’t. I will not be shoe horned into Republicanism without some years of comfortable independence allowing me to reflect on this.

      I will not frighten the horses. Wise up folks!

    93. Gallowglass says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Sorry, I haven’t made any responses to yourself.

      It doesn’t matter if it meets UN this, or EC that, or whatever.

      It’s done, dusted. Finito. Over. In the past. Not coming back.

      Rolling about greeting about how unfair it all was, and how x caused y is not going to bring around another referendum anytime soon as it is falling victim to exactly what they want us to do.

      I would love the UN to turn around and declare it as a pile of shite, but it isn’t going to happen.

      None of these bodies acted in our favour during the referendum?

      Where do people start to think that they will after we lost?

      And lose we did, fair or not, in order to move on we have to accept defeat.

    94. Barontorc says:

      Art1001 – please use the correct terminology; it was not any gamble.

      It was supposed to be an open, fair and free democratic process – it turned out to be anything but open, fair and free.

      There are those who will insist we move on and forget what happened – as though what transpired was no more than mis-fortunate happen-chance, in your terms a ‘gamble’.

      But daily, chinks in the falseness and distortion appears and we see even the queen was involved, as if a bit actor in the power-play to preserve this stinking union, which becomes more ruined by the hour.

      The UK national debt is growing at £5,170 every second and is at an eye-watering £4.8 TRILLION all told! There’s no way out. No more cash-cow countries to exploit except Scotland.

    95. Douglas says:

      Remember we also had the royal baby “alert”, even if it was before the so-called twelve week safe period…..

    96. davidb says:

      And there we go being divided and ruled again. Is it a dealbreaker for any of you that we are a republic or a monarchy? It is part of the soft persuasion that needs to be deployed to strip out the things that really don’t matter. The SNP policy is to preserve the monarch. It is for future generations to work that out. In an independent country. If you make a fuss about it you will just encourage those brainwashed by the cult to vote against us. Pick a time to fight that battle – ideally when you have a monarch as popular as William 4th and not Victoria.

      Focus on the end game. What is going to maximise our vote? Forget about the Windsors for now.

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gallowglass
      Sorry if I’d misinterpreted you.

      Who’s greeting? You may have already spotted I’m not prone to giving up. I’m ready for round two and the sooner the better. 😉

    98. galamcennalath says:

      @Famous15

      I agree. Independence is the goal, trivial details like who do we want as head of state can be sorted out once we have a state!

    99. davidb says:

      @ me

      George 4th, not William above. Although perhaps one as popular as Charles 1st would be the best to pick a fight with really.

    100. Stoker says:

      @ Famous 15.

      Do you believe in equality?

    101. SquareHaggis says:

      No rickshaws available around Crathes, pity.

    102. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @gus1940

      You are right – these are just brilliant – deserve to go into Stu’s Comic relief section. Here are the links…

      http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/303773-stephen-daisley-reviews-the-alan-cochrane-referendum-diaries/

      http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/303682-stephen-daisley-picks-out-the-best-quotes-from-the-alan-cochrane-diaries/

      Poor old Cockers – looks like the book is not worth buying after all.

    103. Morag says:

      Those reviews are fantastic. I bet that’ll leave a mark.

    104. Gallowglass says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Good to hear, I was there myself in the immediate aftermath almost deranged in thought and disbelief even as I doubted the outcome in the preceding week, but we’re nearly into 2015 now and far too many people are still wanting to invent a time machine essentially, or insist on denigrating those who voted No regardless of the perceived circumstances. We would have taken a Yes in those circumstances, so we have to take the No.

      Otherwise they can frame us all, along with a complicit media, as ‘ignoring the expressed will of the Scottish people’.

      Sturgeon hasn’t and Salmond from our point of view hasn’t either, but if enough ‘cyber/nats’ are jumping about decrying it as ‘null and void’ then collectively we are asking for it and in enabling them to frame us like so creates major difficulties in bridging divides in the future.

      Frankly, and it is only my opinion. I suspect I’m right, however.

      And it does start at the ‘bottom’, comments on pro-indy sites that propagate into a louder group think at the very worst.

      I’m not accepting it was a fair fight, but when was it ever?

    105. De Valera says:

      One question asked before the referendum was “who will be Scotland’s Fianna Fail?”
      Regardless of that party’s policies in Ireland, I would not object to being governed in an independent Scotland by a party describing itself as “The Republican Party”.

      As a parent, I want my children to grow up as citizens, not subjects.

    106. CameronB Brodie says:

      Gallowglass
      😉

    107. Katie says:

      @JayR: What a great idea! Ill send Lizzy a SANTA SAYS YES card from the yes 45 shop. Do you think that one would appreciate it??

    108. bookie from hell says:

      Fracking is out in New York.

      New York’s health and environmental commissioners Wednesday rejected the prospect for “high-volume hydraulic fracturing” in New York — better known as “fracking” — saying that health risks, the potential of local bans and limited available land would outweigh the benefits of the controversial drilling technique.

      The conclusions by the state Environmental Conservation Commissioner Joe Martens and Acting Health Commissioner Howard Zucker brings to an end the state’s uncertainty over whether it would proceed with fracking. The state has had a de facto moratorium since 2008.

      “As the acting health commissioner, I consider the people of the state of New York as my patients,” Zucker said. “We cannot afford to make a mistake. The potential risks are too great. In fact, they are not fully known.”

      News of the ban from a state as big as New York galvanized environmentalists across the USA who have been pushing to end the controversial drilling technique throughout the country.NEW YORK BANS FRACKING

      where’s margrit currran

    109. jock mc X says:

      “If you define niggers as someone whose life style
      is defined by others,whose opportunities are defined by
      others,whose role in society is defined by others, then
      good news!–you dont have to be black to be a nigger in
      this society. Most of the people in Scotland are niggers.”
      adapted from the john lennon..
      It was ‘uncle tom’ who voted no.
      But when old uncle tom see’s the true nature of his master,
      he will regret his mistake…”a nation scorned” indeed.

      As my old granny used to say
      the only reward you get for sucking the
      devil’s c*ck will be a life of hell.

      ps.if you have an uncle tom,he may or may not be the same
      one refered to in this post.

    110. Famous15 says:

      @Stoker

      I believe in equality and constitutional monarchy does not conflict with that. On independence our monarchy will be encouraged to get on their bike for the sake of equality.

      What I will not do is make an enemy of my Aunt Aggie who voted Yes relying on my promise that the SNP was not a Republican Party. However I am a democrat a will support the choices of the people in the future.

      I try not to shoot my own foot.

    111. fred blogger says:

      so, in may we can start the UK closing down sale, everything must go.

    112. Ken500 says:

      The only reason to keep the Monarchy as an totally impartial Head of State, has gone. The Monarchy will lose major support because of the unconstitutional intervention. In other words they can’t keep their mouths shut. A big mistake.

    113. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      Prior to the referendum my feeling towards the monarchy was really one of inertia.

      Now they can GTF! Bring on an Independent REPUBLICAN Scotland.

    114. Gallowglass says:

      I can agree with that. I had almost become ambivalent towards them in comparison to my teens and early twenties. Actually the thought of the Queen having to engage Scotland under a Scottish Crown as the Queen of Scots was something of a perverted amusement that I was rather looking forward too..

      I’m not sure how much of an influence the issue had, I’m unsure as to how many Scottish nationalists support the Queen and vice versa. I would be inclined to do whatever won support, as really the whole issue other than the cost really is immaterial. I’m a nationalist before I’m a republican in terms of a non Monarchical constitution. As a hangover from the past it should go, but only once we’ve made it a bit awkward at least. 😉

    115. Paula Rose says:

      The SNP as the only WM party with a left of centre outlook must now make it clear that it will act in the best interests of the people of the UK and support other WM parties that put forward such policies.

    116. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      Alex Salmond for President.

    117. Onwards says:

      @davidb says:

      And there we go being divided and ruled again. Is it a dealbreaker for any of you that we are a republic or a monarchy? It is part of the soft persuasion that needs to be deployed to strip out the things that really don’t matter. The SNP policy is to preserve the monarch. It is for future generations to work that out. In an independent country. If you make a fuss about it you will just encourage those brainwashed by the cult to vote against us

      This.
      Hardly worth making a big deal out of this.

      Yes, she is SUPPOSED to be impartial and dignified, but who is really surprised?
      By doing this she has just damaged her own reputation.

      Gaining REAL power away from Westminster is the big picture to focus on.

      Not who is some figurehead for the tourists.

    118. Robert Kerr says:

      The message is firming up very nicely.

      We are ruled and controlled by an “Establishment” that is malign and evil.

      We gave them a very real fright and that has not gone away.

      It’s not over by anyone’s standards.

      Be of Good Cheer.

    119. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Brian DTT 8.21 dafty lol an its no lol fae the OO just lol PMSL.

    120. boris says:

      First Photograph of the UK’s, (Machiavellian Prince) Sir Jeremy Heywood and his Dirty Tricks, (Civil Service Better together team) who it is expected will feature in HM’s New Year honours List

      http://www.civilserviceworld.com/articles/news/hm-treasury-team-wins-special-civil-service-award

      The full dirty story including full background and follow up reports providing explanation of HM Queen’s and many others involvement is here;

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/11/02/sir-jeremy-heywood-the-referendum-the-dirty-tricks-department-run-by-civil-servants/

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/11/02/sir-jeremy-heywood-the-referendum-the-dirty-tricks-department-run-by-civil-servants/

    121. Bob Mack says:

      Many people from all sectors of the Establishment broke or bent the rules to keep this nation of “kept” people in the Union. In that she was not alone. We have to be realistic and understand the range of forces which were indeed enormous and came from all sections both Public and State. To achieve the result we did in spite of that is something which should gives us a real sense of pride. It was truly fantastic. I honestly could not conceive just ten years ago, that over 1.6 million Scots would vote as they did. Do not concentrate on the forces we face, rather concentrate on the next stage of our incredible journey.

    122. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      Remember the biggest tourist attraction in Russia is Ivan the Terrible’s pad. We all know what happened to the Russian Monarchy.

      I’m not suggesting any harm to Mrs Windsor and family, but don’t be fooled by line that we need them for tourism.

    123. Tam Jardine says:

      I was a republican before the referendum and the queen’s intervention hardened my views. Everyone smelled a rat when the queen was ‘overheard’- the surprise for me is how poorly the machinations of the state in this so called ‘decision for the people of Scotland’ have been hidden.

      At least with our oil wealth the bastards in charge had the good grace to hide their deception for as long as they could (30 years). The shite is all emerging after just 3 months… will there be anything left to emerge after 30 years? Maybe the full details of the MOD operation to secure trident – “armageddon” I believe it was described as.

      The naked campaign of UK plc was simply contemptuous but perhaps the contempt is well earned by that majority.

    124. Robert Kerr says:

      @Bob Mack

      Indeed.

      Our day shall come.

    125. ClanDonald says:

      The arrogant Brit-Nat press, in their haste to tell us how fabulous they were in winning the indyref, have just wiped out support for the Monarchy in Scotland. Excellent.

      They have also provided us with another cut and paste article to add to all the other Better Together lies. These will be compiled and reproduced for indyref2, what great ammunition this will be second time around.

      They just can’t keep their big, boasty gobs shut can they? What a huge help they are being with our preparations for round 2.

    126. Ken500 says:

      Under General Election Parliamentary rules senior civil servants are not expected or allowed to favour one political party or another. They are civil servant paid by the whole electorate so should not favour one party or the other. There are expected to stay totally neutral. Some government employees are not even allowed to belong to political parties to ensure neutrality, and must take the secret service oath. The Westminster most senior civil servants were colluding with and leaking to the Press on behalf of political parties even during the Purdah period. (Obviously Parliament has been desolved). Technically there are no senior civil servants even appointed. Heyward/MacPherson were breaking General Election Party political rules, under which General Election are held. I.e. It was a Referendum for the Scottish people. No one else.

      The Tories are Labour can’t encourage or collude with the Monarchy to state any preference for any Party. That would be breaking General Election Parliamentary parties rules. This happened during the Referendum in the Purdah period. There is a Code of Practice for senior civil servants to stay neutral.

    127. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      @Bob Mack

      Well said. Maybe it was a bridge too far. The timing was of a consequence of the SNP’s overall majority in 2011 that nobody expected.

      They didn’t want to call it then, but had no choice.

    128. boris says:

      We need to establish the truth of events purporting to involve the improper use of the Queen and the Civil Service by the Better Together campaign.

      A public judicial ? inquiry chaired by a Canadian judge, (or similar person) should be put in place by the Scottish government. To report it’s findings before 1 May 2015.

    129. ronnie anderson says:

      Its a mixed bag of bad fruits in the royal family Prince Charlie on asending the throne, as head of the church of england has said previously that the church of rome & anglican, should merge,another costitutional crisis to devide the country, lets leave now.religion & politics are the most devicive elements in Scotland neither of whitch are of the peoples making.

    130. Ken500 says:

      ‘The arrogant Brit-Nat Press in their haste to support the Labour/Unionist Party’s fortunes, leak pertentually embarrassing ‘secrets’.’

    131. thomaspotter2014 says:

      The only reservation I have with any Indyref2 is that,as it now stands, it wil be run and manipulated by the same dodgy crew that screwed the last one.

    132. Stephen McKenzie says:

      I will personally deliver a bag of cat litter for Brenda at the gates of Crathie Kirk prior to her royal arse going anywhere news the pews.

      She can purr all she likes to the moon as far as I am concerned.

    133. thomaspotter2014 says:

      The only reservation I have with any Indyref2 is that,as it now stands, it wil be run and manipulated by the same dodgy crew that screwed the last one.
      Not exactly filling me with confidence.
      The next referendum will have to be regulated by a NON British State organisation or it’ll be doomed to fail again.

    134. Gallowglass says:

      @Ken500 Purdah doesn’t really mean anything in substance. It has no legal power. It’s an ambition at best. What you’re really saying is they won by breaking their own moral code.

      Also, that’s not how the Civil Service works. There are Civil Servants in place even when parliament is in recess or temporarily abolished, they are employees of the Crown. If there wasn’t, the country wouldn’t be able to cope with General Elections. There would be no effective day to day running, and no option to ‘hand over’.

      Also, colluding and leaking to press. The exact same accusation gets thrown towards the SG and it’s Senior Civil Servants.

      I’m not saying everything was above board, some of it probably wasn’t, but if sweeping statements rile some of your fellow nationalists what do you think it does to opponents?

      We all know the British state stinks, but you don’t say everyone in Britain stinks because of it.

      The makeup of Whitehall is rather different to the Scottish Government, so I can actually see a reason for a co-ordinating unit to be set up; not for it to be a ‘secret’ however. There may have been an SG equivalent, or perhaps one wasn’t needed.

    135. Stoker says:

      I’ve always been a republican and the very fact we are now in the 21st century only adds further to my beliefs.

      Personally, if left to me and purely for symbolic reasons, i’d turf them all out of Bucky Palace and every other property they have then fill the places with our homeless.

      The money we would save on these parasites i would use to help eliminate our poverty shame.

      night night folks.
      😉

    136. Gallowglass says:

      @Boris

      And how do you suggest a Scottish enquiry might compel HM the Queen, and the Senior Civil Servants aligned to Westminster?

      By asking very very nicely?

      We can’t even fucking compel the BBC. Again, realism.

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      I posted this on the previous thread, but for those who may have missed it. We are not alone in seeing our fight as being against the iniquity of an unjust state.

      I am Zapatista. I’m also Alex Salmond.
      (sorry NS, but I’d get funny looks stomping around claiming I was yourself. 🙂 )

      http://salterlee.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/stop-the-celebrations-you-imperialist-pigdogs-indyref-scotland/

    138. Kevin Evans says:

      The major change that took place in my opinion during the final weeks and after the refurendum was, I was ok having Liz as our figure head still but since she got involved I changed completely to the idea of a republic. No less now. I want nothing to do with the auld hag

    139. Kirsty says:

      I respect everyone’s views on this and understand it’s a controversial area but I’d be sorry to think that anyone could be put off or offended because people expect a constitutional monarch to obey constitutional law, which she didn’t in this case. It isn’t a little thing when a constitutional monarch breaks constitutional law. Her interference in a democratic process was a flagrant breach of constitutional law and, therefore, shouldn’t go unremarked although it will certainly go unpunished.

    140. ronnie anderson says:

      Obama welcoming Cuba back into the world.Will Obama reverse his decision on Scotland ?.Dont bother joining in on the welcoming UK plc,American corperations have 1st dibs.

    141. Ken500 says:

      The Purdah period does apply to the Press/Media. It especially applies to the Press and media. Wait until the Gereral Election. In that period there will be a total clamp down on any Press/Media discussion. That is why any party political TV debates or party political QT discussion etc with politicians must have taken place before that date. Sometimes any regular political discussion programmes have to be suspended or postponed. They are taken off air during that period. Anything that could bias or influence the outcome.

      Any senior civil servants are forbidden from making any statement, or leak to any Media, in favour of any political party, or risk the sack or demotion/punishment.

    142. Grouse Beater says:

      I will not frighten the horses. Wise up folks!

      I am sure Her majesty is deeply moved to learn of your support.

      I look forward to the day Royalty are as the King of Norway, seen cycling to work each morning.

    143. Luigi says:

      C’mon folks, remember the advice/order some Brit Nat thug scrolled on the pavement on George Square that dark day in September:

      Obey your Queen

    144. Lenny Hartley says:

      There is nothing the matter with the concept of “Royalty” as long as its an elected Monarch.

      Up until McBeth our Kings were sorta elected, we can still keep a King or Queen but they should be elected on a five year term with a maximum of two terms. Sorted 🙂

    145. boris says:

      OK. Can anyone confirm rumour now circulating that Spud Murphy is to stand down from his Westminster seat at the next election so as to be assured of his lump sum and pension. Seemingly the Tories are putting up a strong candidate who enjoys membership of the Conservative Party Support’s Israel which cancels out Spud’s auto support of the 6000+ Jews in his constituency.

    146. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Gov senior civil servants did respect the Purdah period. Did they make any statement from anyone favouring Independence. Did they leak or collude with the Press to state anyone’s support Royal or otherwise,( in the Purdah time or otherwise), a preference for Independence. Where is the evidence? They issued Political Staement on behalf of the Scottish Gov but that was their job. It was a Referendum on Scottish Independence. ‘Should Scotland be an Independence Country?’. Not a Referendum organised by Westminster, ‘Do you want to stay in the Union’. The Westminster civil servants had no part to play in the Scottish Referendum. It was not in their remit. Westminster had no part to play in it, apart from coming to agreement to the terms. It was a Referendum for the people in Scotland not for every Tom, Dick and Harry outwith Scotland to stick their nose in.

    147. Paula Rose says:

      @ Boris – popcorn again.

    148. Ken500 says:

      Many of the Westminster MP’s are retiring at the next Gereral Election because this is the last year they will be able to get a final salary pension. There are changes after that.

    149. hetty says:

      see the book, ‘ Living off the state, a critical guide to royal finance’ by Jon Temple, progress books 2008. Eye opening, eye watering truths that would make any normal person question the whole uk establishment, it stinks ti high heaven.

    150. Ken500 says:

      Just think how Land Refoms in Scotland could affect the Monarchy, their associates and Westminster members.

    151. Gallowglass says:

      @Ken500. Technically it isn’t purdah as it applies only to Government, Civil Service and Local Authorities. Even then it only carries the weight of guidance as principle is not set down in law. The press do have restrictions particularly on the day of the referendum or election but I suspect that’s Ofcom related or something.

    152. Gallowglass says:

      @Ken500. Technically it isn’t purdah as it applies only to Government, Civil Service and Local Authorities. Even then it only carries the weight of guidance as the principle is not set down in law. The press do have restrictions particularly on the day of the referendum or election but I suspect that’s Ofcom related or something.

    153. Kevin Evans says:

      Never forget fellow wingers. When the shit hit the fan 2 weeks before the refurendum the poeple of Scotlands rights/freedom/democracy was shit all over by the British establishment. The royals/the media/westminster. Never forget – we will never truly be free in this country as long as we’re part of the UK.

    154. Fireproofjim says:

      The SNP leadership are wise enough to realise there is still a large number of Monarchist- leaning Yes voters who must be kept on side.
      Strident calls for an instant Republic on Independence Day will only have the effect of making that day impossible to achieve.
      Anyway a monarchy can be accommodated quite well in a democracy. See Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. All of which are models of socially just government. It is just the would-be aristocratic hangers on that need to be curbed.

    155. AndyC says:

      Excellent post Cameron B @ 10:17.
      Lee Salter sums it up perfectly.
      It will all be repeated on the run up to the elections.
      Democracy? They’re having a laugh!
      Money and power corrupts.
      Let’s finish this, folks……please?

    156. Gallowglass says:

      Even if there was something tying the press to purdah in the Edinburgh Agreement, all in honesty you’d struggle to prove it was even an accord. Then you’d need to find some statute that set down purdah as have the weight of law; which you won’t. It wouldn’t be the only problem, as ultimately the Edinburgh agreement could be shown to be rather contradictory as well.

    157. Ken500 says:

      Westminster senior civil servants are not allowed to leak to the Press. Those who have taken the Civil Service Oath on secrecy, can be charged with treason. Westminster use ‘D’ notices and the 30/100 years secret rules to cover up their secrets.

      David Kelly died after speaking to the Press on guarantees of anonymity, which were traced.

    158. KOF says:

      I felt I should comment about this article, or rather the comments, as I am a monarchist. I am not however a British monarchist, I am a Scots monarchist. A monarch of the Scots who does not have Scotland and the Scots foremost in their thoughts and deeds is not, in my opinion, worthy of being our monarch. With independence I would like to see an wholly independent monarchy, a truly Scots monarchy, whose one and only job is to stand up for Scotland and it’s people.

      I don’t envision a monarch like the one we have now, or indeed had in the past. A King, or queen, of Scots would hold no titles, no ownership of property out with Scotland. In fact they wouldn’t even own any property in Scotland either. They would be effectively tenants in the royal residences. Nor would they have any business interests. They would have no money of their own, except a small personal allowance. (For me it would amount to whatever the average wage is in Scotland) All that they have belongs to the Kingdom, the State, the People. Everything they need will be provided for by us and in return they will spend their lives fighting for us, to their last breath if necessary.

      They would be a “pauper” King, who will stand unashamed to live a good and simple life. A strong King, who would bend their knee to no one, neither man nor god. A compassionate King, who will not see the weak and disadvantaged come to harm within his kingdom.

      Without something to link the Scotland of the past to the Scotland of the future, then the future Scotland will not be Scotland, in my opinion. In time all things will change in this land and to me the monarchy is something that can bridge that gap of time from the past to the present to the future. A golden thread, as it were, weaving us into the fabric of the story of both our ancestors and our descendants.

      Scotland has had many many bad monarchs, but it doesn’t have to be that way in the future.

    159. Narrow Shoulders says:

      Did the Guardian just pluck this story out of thin air? Were the authors among the journalists present at Balmoral that day, if not which journalists were? Did they record the conversation? Why has no one found the “wellwisher” in such a sparsely populated area? As a republican nationalist I’m not sure which is the worst between a real royal intervention or a fake media construct.

    160. TJenny says:

      Boris – I thought that Labour have rules (stop sniggering at the back) that stipulates that their leader has to be a current MP, MSP or MEP. If Murphy stands down as an MP in May 2015, would that not mean he would be ineligible to be Slab leader until (if) he was elected in May 2016 to Holyrood?

    161. Kirsty says:

      Grouse Beater,

      Yes, I thought “Oh.” when I saw that comment. I’d be sorry if believing in a meritocracy or democracy could frighten people’s horses but personally, I look forward to a day when we can tell our kids that they can be anything they want to be as long as they work hard enough and have the ability and really mean it. Also, to when simply being born into a certain family doesn’t automatically qualify you for the top level of jobs. In short, I look forward to a meritocracy but I’d take the monarch on a bike for now! 😉

      Luigi,

      Haha, you’re right; we must remember our place! ;-p What a pest we must seem right now to the UK establishment; it makes me laugh – damn commoners with their pesky opinions! 🙂 They’ll be trying to work out whether to bring back Gladiators or something soon in the hope that it’ll distract us from having opinions on things!

    162. Gallowglass says:

      @ken500

      If those events are proved and also went on to show it was a Civil Servant than yes it break the Civil Service Code on (honesty integrity objectivity etc) with regards to the statements made in the aftermath in clear denial. The Official Secrets Act would also apply, in terms of ‘information’ I think the water could be muddied enough with respect to ‘ownership’ (remembering that purdah is legally sfa), with regards to ‘official trust’ it could be argued this was breached if you could establish a failure to observe financial regulation. However I suspect that this is all entirely academic, as they’re never going to admit to it.

      I don’t really think Treason would apply, that’s not stuck since WWII and is about disobeying or betraying the Crown. Not scheming with it. Something like RBS was always going to be a risk in terms of referendum strategy, and they used it relatively effectively. A bit too keen, but even then.. nothing positive will come from trying to pull apart the referendum over the next few years in what would realistically result in nothing that you’re looking for and just frustrating and disengaging the people we’ve got interested in politics again.

      I do not believe there will be any legal redress for any of these complaints. Our political leaders have moved on, many of us clearly have not.

    163. bobby says:

      Was never anti royal but this has changed my mind

    164. ClanDonald says:

      KOF: It doesn’t sound much like a Monarchy that you have in mind, more like a Scottish Dalai Lama, much more up our street I would think.

    165. Bob Mack says:

      @KOF,
      We already have a golden thread stretching back through the years my friend. The people. It is they who will resolve this business, and it is they who will command justice for each other . We are all kings and queens in this ambition, with a heritage of the clan system ,where we cared for each other.

    166. Marga says:

      Gallowglass – you say the civil service were only doing their jobs – my eyebrows shot up when I read that.

      Recruit staff, put them to work on a political campaign (let’s not mince words – the only problem is deciding which party they worked for but since politics morphed just then to Yes v. No instead of left-right, it’s a moot point, the government 2 and Labour were tied at the hip).

      Then giving this unsavoury Team GB a gong, partly paid for with Scottish taxes, patting heads and collecting breathless quotes from our heroes to publish is on a scale between unseemly and outrageous, you choose the colour. At least Holyrood kept its mouth shut about Team Scotland.

      Still, compared with the effortless ease with which the written rules of the referendum were side-stepped (devo-max offer as votes rolled in etc.) I suppose this sweeping away of normal expectations is small fry.

    167. Valerie says:

      C’mon guys, no one is really shocked at reading this in black and white surely?
      TBH – I’m more shocked that Grouse Beater admits to a momentary wobble when Betty opened her royal gob at Crathes, and her going to church n’all.

      When that incident was reported, I was in no way surprised, just heart sick at another load of shit being thrown at the plebs, and thinking they will stop at nothing.

    168. Lesely-Anne says:

      Now that we all know her nibs *ahem* outburst about us nasty Scots thinking *cough* carefully before voting in the referendum was *ahem* planned perhaps we should all think about showing our gratitude to her the next time she deigns visit our too wee too poor too stupid nether region of Greater England.

      I’d like to suggest that during her next *cough* visit to our land of cybernattery we stand along her *ahem* parade route with our backs to her and holding our YES flags proudly aloft!

      I’m sure our Royal earse licker Nicholas Witchell will be proud to report with 100% accuracy on this event. 😛

    169. MJarga says:

      Nothing personal Gallowglass, but “..Edinburgh Agreement, all in honesty you’d struggle to prove it was even an accord.”

      Good enough for the Jocks, though, eh? (thought it was backed up by “proper” law in both parliaments, in fact).

      Strikes me that such a cavalier attitude to good governance is not very wise and creates precedent. Why put things in writing if you don’t mean them? If that’s how things work, you might even start doubting the Vow – oh, wait …

    170. Kirsty says:

      KOF,

      You’re not a monarchist; you’re a dreamer. We’ve never had anything remotely resembling what you’ve written in a monarchy, ever. I doubt we’ll get it now after all these centuries.

    171. heedtracker says:

      @Gallowglass says: “I do not believe there will be any legal redress for any of these complaints. Our political leaders have moved on, many of us clearly have not.” sounds just like Mcawhirter at the Herald saying it was cybernats that lost it last weekend and so we shoudl all shut up now and give Jim Murphy a go at First minister just because he says he’s not a red Tory? You lot give me the creeps if only because you think you have some god given right to tell other people what to do and I wonder why that could be.

    172. old highlander says:

      Roll on the revolution, turf them out of the palaces, clear the land for housing and give her a two bedroom maisonette and let her see what it’s like in the real world.

      These parasites have been living off the back of the poor tax payers for centuries, why should you and I pay for them to live a life that they should never ever have got accustomed to.

      As for the treacherous smug turds in Whitehall, the guillotine would be suffice.

    173. Barontorc says:

      This is my country – mine, I’m a Scot. I do not want to be told what to do by another country, which takes all my resources and my taxes and then gives me back an allowance to run my affairs, but only the little things, not what matters most.

      On this subject, I thought we had Queen Elizabeth – our First, and as queen of Scots she would look after us and our interests, but where is she in this charade of democracy?

      Not impressed – constitutionally confused, tending towards let-down and wondering why we bother, to be frank.

    174. boris says:

      Gallowglass. How right you are. Queen Elizabeth the second was never crowned, Queen Elizabeth the first, Queen of the Scots. She turned up in Scotland wearing a 2 piece skirt, jacket and little pill box hat with a posy of flowers in it. As I remember it, (yes I am that old) Scotland’s high & mighty stood ready to crown her, Queen of the Scot’s but Churchill expressly forbid it.

      So she was simply handed the jewels of Scotland as a symbolic act for safekeeping. Her title Queen Elizabeth the Second is the English title bestowed upon her at the time of her coronation as queen of the United Kingdom, but this has no legal bearing in Scotland a Nation that has functioned without a Monarch for sixty+ years.

      The Post Office ignored the foregoing and installed post-boxes with regina11 (ER2) insignia. Many were blown up and or rendered useless in protest. The Post Office relented and installed post-boxes with the insignia Elizabeth Regina (ER).

      I well remember being taught in School that Victoria formally declared herself a Stuart and Queen of the Scots when she abandoned England for many years.

    175. Marga says:

      Not sure what to think – it hasn’t taken the unionists long to start with the “haven’t we been clever” revelations which rather belittle the referendum and emphasise how they have their foot on the neck of any constitutional movement and command all the establishment against it if necessary.

      Just awaiting similar tales of similar tricks on a European scale – oh hang on, maybe you in the UK have not heard of the recent statement issued by the EU stating that it fully supports all member states in defending the integrity of their territory. This was sold to the Catalans as the result of Spanish intervention, but in the light of these revelations, I suspect a different source:

      Quote found in Catalan News Agency report (in English) European Council commits “to respect” Member State decisions on their “territorial integrity”. http://www.catalannewsagency.com/politics/item/european-council-commits-to-respect-member-state-decisions-on-their-territorial-integrity

    176. Marga says:

      Journalisted on Severin Carrell (Guardian’s Scottish correspondent, not their political correspondent, note for anyone who might be confused reading his work profile): Severin Carrell has written…

      More about ‘snp’ than anything else
      A lot about ‘labour’ in the last month

      10 topics mentioned most by Severin Carrell
      glasgow holyrood labour salmond scottish labour scottish national snp sturgeon tories westminster

      2052 articles (since March 2006)
      Average article: 24 column inches (723 words)
      Shortest article: 3 column inches (94 words)
      Longest article: 103 column inches (3082 words)

      http://journalisted.com/severin-carrell#tab-work

    177. Marga says:

      Robert – I was rivetted by your statement: “We are ruled and controlled by an “Establishment” – and you add “that is malign and evil.”

      I think the first bit is enough to make your skin crawl in what is to all appearances a fully democratic country, apparently ruled in accordance with the “settled will of the people” (another phrase that leaves an unfortunate aftertaste).

    178. robertknight says:

      “Scotland. MY Land. The trouble with Scotland is that it’s full of Scots!”

    179. robertknight says:

      In a new book, The Telegraph’s Scottish editor Alan Cochrane claims that the Palace staged an “accidental” intervention by Queen Elizabeth II in the Scottish referendum campaign, just four days before the vote on Sept. 18.

      Talking to a well-wisher after the Sunday morning service at Crathie Kirk near her Balmoral estate in Scotland on Sept. 14, the Queen was reported to have said that she hoped “people will think very carefully about the future”. The comments were overheard by nearby press and widely reported as a rare, if unintended, intervention by the monarch in the political sphere.

      In his diary of the referendum campaign, The Telegraph’s Cochrane now claims that the whole event was staged by the Palace. He writes:

      This was a completely deliberate and put-up job by the Palace.

      My old pal Jim Lawson was the only reporter outside Crathie Kirk when the royal party came out, and, as usual, he and the photographers were corralled some way away from Her Majesty and the usual crowd of royalists who gather there every Sunday. But on this occasion, the police were told that the press – Jim and the snappers – could go over to where they could hear what was going on, and that’s how the story about the Queen’s remarks got out.

      (Business Insider suggested that the Queen was stumping for the “No” vote the day after it happened.)

      In the end, 55% of Scots voted against independence. Although the size of that margin suggests any intervention so close to polling day is unlikely to have made the difference, these new claims, if true, are likely to stoke anger among Scottish nationalists who have complained about the tactics of the pro-union campaign.

      At the time, the leader of the independence campaign, Alex Salmond, dismissed coverage of the comments saying that “the Queen is absolutely impartial in this referendum”.

      He added: “Nobody seriously, apart from some of the more frenetic unionist press, would seek to persuade or tell people otherwise.”

      However, Cochrane has cast doubt on that assertion as he describes the Queen’s intervention as “a bit of a coup” claiming that she “knew exactly what the effect would be”.

      Read more: http://uk.businessinsider.com/new-book-claims-the-palace-staged-the-intervention-in-the-scottish-referendum-2014-12?r=US#ixzz3ME02342s

    180. anoni mouse says:

      Surely this is breech of purr-dah lol. Sorry couldn’t resist.

    181. john king says:

      Morag says
      “That’ll leave a mark”

      Toilet duck! 😉

      ————–

      Stoker says
      “Personally, if left to me and purely for symbolic reasons, i’d turf them all out of Bucky Palace and every other property they have then fill the places with our homeless.”

      Yep and we could rename London Salmondgrad!
      I can just see the flood of people coming over from the no camp as we speak.

      Remember without the £20 million quid she brings in we would all be living off £10.00 a week giro’s
      Like it or not that clown had a vote and we know which way he voted,
      the same as the genius at the foot of Leith walk who insisted we couldn’t survive on Whisky water and sheep alone,
      Until we convince these knuckle draggers
      WE WILL NOT WIN!
      ————————
      Ken500 says
      “Just think how Land Refoms in Scotland could affect the Monarchy, their associates and Westminster members.”

      And that is how we will win, we need to make their lives so miserable they’ll wish us gone asap!

      If/when we get 40+ SNP MP’s in wastemonster we need to stop being the good guys and mess with EVEL (its not law yet) as much as possible
      fillibuster English only laws and talk bills to death,

      Let them show US the door! 🙂

    182. Mealer says:

      I’m not that bothered one way or the other about THEIR queen.

    183. Haggis Hunter says:

      I never used to be republican, but when she intevened in the referendum, thats when I decided I want Scotland to be based on a German styled democracy.
      Sorry Queen, but you dont belong here, your forebearers emptied Scotland of people and you and your kind are busy using our land as sporting estates

    184. Macart says:

      I spent a little while over on Bella the past couple of days looking at reasons for voting no. Depressing doesn’t cover it. From rationalised to frankly insulting. From the numbers and economic doesn’t stack up, to the usual ‘don’t trust the SNP’.

      It added up to simply fearful, self interested or deluded. The more plausible an pleasant posts freely admitted their mistrust of Westminster and its politics, yet claimed the Scottish government to be just as bad and on that note better the devil you know. There was a disconnect of self from community, from culture, from history past and present in evidence and a dismissal of those who did feel those connections.

      You look at the example above the line and the now well publicised account of the queen’s response to the result and shake your head in wonder at those who passed up the opportunity they had just been given. I don’t understand it and never will. Westminster, the establishment and frankly the proud Scot buts of our politics, have made of us foreigners in our own land. Basically people with no sense of belonging or community have manipulated a situation where they’ve made a sense of self, me myself and I the prevalent culture.

      Good people voted no for what they consider valid reasons. Caution, independence not yet, ideological difference, fear and God knows how many others, but what have they gained? Security? Safety in numbers? What else?

      I know what they’ve lost. I just wonder if they do?

    185. Scotspine says:

      Bbc radio Murphy carrying a story that the banks are again threatening to move out of Scotland becausee of continuing political uncertainty. Rich establishment banker on with his plummy accent doing his best for Queen and Country – well fuck off then!

    186. Stoker says:

      Six reasons to oppose the monarchy

      (3)-The monarchy interferes in our day-to-day political life.
      “Civil servants produce regular briefings on domestic and foreign policy for the Queen and other royals. The Prime Minister has a weekly meeting with the Queen to discuss current policy issues..and government departments regularly receive requests for briefings on specific issues from the Queen and other senior royals..They see it as their legitimate role to influence government policy.”
      “As well as interfering privately with the deliberations and decisions of Ministers and senior officials, the Royal family uses its access to the media to influence political debates – for example, the Palace recently let it be known that the Queen was concerned about the proposed new EU Constitution.”
      https://archive.today/8YYxk

    187. heedtracker says:

      @Gallowglass, should blue Tory Heffer shut up, accept defeat and move on? Plus massive rancid Graun boosts for red Tory Crash Gordon and another English billionaire JK Rowling, who also desperately stoped Scotland running Scotland and would also like us to shut up and let England run Scotland for ever and ever.

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/17/self-rule-union-doomed-uk-disintegration-inept-westminster

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      Earlier, I had incorrectly remembered that Britain had been described as a proto-fascist state. It was actually British Labour that had been properly described as such. A proto-fascist party to corral the masses in a de facto fascist state. Benjamin Disraeli’s wet dream of a ‘One Nation Britain’, has just shown us it’s knickers in the post-modern 21st century.

      “Careful now”, I hear you say.
      Well, down with this sort of thing and no delay!

      Scarring the horses am I? Would you want your doctor to diagnose a touch of flu, when you were actually suffering from bubonic plague? Without accurate diagnosis of the condition, there is no hope for the patient.

      If fascist state is too strong for your tastes, what shall we call it? Great Britain?

    189. Grouse Beater says:

      I’m more shocked

      I don’t think Oliver Cromwell would have been happy with HRH’s intervention. I can see his web post: “WTF!!!”

      🙂

    190. Training Day says:

      @Macart

      I too read the Bella articles. If they were intended to lend a veneer of intellect or morality to a decision to renounce self-determination then the writers of the pieces have failed utterly. Poverty of imagination, subservience to orthodoxy, and most of all a weirdly self-satisfied atomisation shines through all of the pieces.

      @scotspine

      Yes, perhaps the BBC might be good enough to inform us when this Nirvana-like state of ‘certainty’ existed in the past or will do so in future. It was, after all, supposed to return on the 19th September.

    191. Ken500 says:

      Just let Murphy repeat their past mistakes. Some people never learn. They are too stupid. Murphy isn’t the solution Murphy is the problem, as the parasites will find out at the Ballot Box.

      If anyone wants rid of the BBC and rid of Murphy stop listening to it and vote SNP.

    192. Graeme says:

      We just have to remember she is “our” Queen and we are not her subjects. We should therefore take the time to remind her she is “Queen of Scots” and we can remove our consent to that status at our leisure.
      I’m thinking about it now…are you?

    193. Stoker says:

      Lets face it, the vast majority of those who would use that royal family as an excuse to vote ‘No’ are of a certain persuasion and no amount of “persuasion” or “fact” is going to change their thinking.

      We have unacceptable high levels of poverty in this filthy rich and wealthy country of ours but the trouble is it’s all heading south to maintain the interests and living standards of a chosen few – that is wrong.

      How can anyone knowing this support any form of monarchy?

    194. Lollysmum says:

      O/T

      Leaving no doubt as to JM’s position

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/16/jim-murphy-scottish-labour-independence-question

      Scroll down to letter from Jim McLean. Recognise the phrases? Winger? If so bloody well done sir!

    195. No no no...Yes says:

      Scotspine 8:13am

      Banks threat to leave Scotland

      I don’t listen to BBC Radio, Gary Roberston grates my nerves too much. I checked the BBC website and good old Douglas Fraser is back and reports on the same story:
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30526396

      “There has been no end to the constitutional uncertainty” and financial firms are concerned also about the prospect of UK voters choosing to leave the European Union.

      “Those companies which decided that leaving Scotland (in terms of legal headquarters) was the best option in the event of a ‘Yes’ vote MAY decide that the state of uncertainties is such that it still makes business sense to CONSIDER moving HQs even after a ‘No’ vote.

      “It is worth remembering the ‘Montreal effect’. After the referendum on independence for Quebec in 1995, which also yielded a ‘No’ vote, the Bank of Montreal moved its HQ to Toronto.”

      “Mr Peat suggested that the twin uncertainties over Scottish independence and EU membership could be an incentive for the more international firms to move out of the UK, for instance to Ireland.”

      There you have it folks, the propaganda has started again. The biggest issue in the near future is an In/Out referendum, but let’s not miss an opportunity to scare folks about voting SNP at the General election anyway. There is of course the possibility the banks may move anyway, in which case we get done over regardless.

      The machinery of state and all their experts are getting rolled out already. They are scared of us exercising our democratic rights and of the consequences. They want to protect what they have got and will do what it takes, just like the referendum. We are stronger and even more determined this time. We will prevail.

    196. john king says:

      Stoker says
      “Lets face it, the vast majority of those who would use that royal family as an excuse to vote ‘No’ are of a certain persuasion and no amount of “persuasion” or “fact” is going to change their thinking.”

      Absolutely agree Stoker but its not those people we are aiming at anyway,
      Until we spike the guns of the absolutists there is a certain part of the voting public who will hear and accept the garbage these people spout,

      This process has already begun with the STV websites forensic dismantling of Cochranes narcissistic drivel,

      Every time one of these people is shown for the empty vessel he/she is, is one more nail in the coffin of the union,
      It takes time to pry the eyes of people (who simply don’t want to wake up) open.

      But they are going to resist with all their might if they think that all (they think) they hold dear is going to be wrenched away from them.

    197. Robert Kerr says:

      @Marga

      Indeed.

      I recommend the DVD “Saoirse?” Produced in Dublin which is a collection of newsreel films from the period 1919 to 1922 covering the events in Ireland leading up to their civil war.

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saoirse-DVD-Sean-O-Riada/dp/B000SNUQJY/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1418894776&sr=1-1&keywords=Saoirse

      That war was a consequence of Lloyd George succeeding in persuading the negotiators to accept “Home Rule”. Collins signed the treaty, and his own death warrant. De Valera knew how the “Establishment” worked and the civil war resulted causing about 4000 dead. But the “Establishment” had won. The Irish had been denied their sovereignty. Well done Lloyd George.

      The DVD is available from Amazon and is provided with English sub-titles.

      I have a personal interest in these events since the Irish records were destroyed during the “Battle of the Four Courts” and I cannot trace my paternal grandfather to his birthplace.

      “Saoirse” is Irish Gaelic for “Freedom”

    198. Sinky says:

      No no no…Yes says: @ 9.07

      As usual you have to examine behind BBC / MSM headlines as Jeremy Peat went on to say that even if the Banks moved HQ brass plates to London or elsewhere we can and should still maintain high paid executive and senior managerial jobs here in Scotland. He also pointed out that after banking crash despite RBS and Lloyds having HQ brass plates in Edinburgh lots of senior jobs were lost to London.

      And in my opinion, like the Labour Party, RBS and Lloyds Scottish HQs are merely Branch offices nowadays.

    199. Macart says:

      @Training day

      Whatever way you cut it TD, self and personal caution appears to come before communal progress and money came before societal change. Basically, what price do you put on self determination?

    200. george ferguson says:

      Future scenario? Second phase land reform laws passed by Holyrood. Charles now on the throne says no. Equals constitutional crisis?. Is an elected head of state always preferable to a hereditary right to the throne propagating privilege, patronage and have /have not division.

    201. Stoker says:

      @ John King.

      Very true John, can’t disagree with that but we should never be prevented from confronting and discussing these inconvenient truths, or as some would say “dodgy subjects” – no pun intended.

      To stifle debate or conversation on any topic is to continue to conceal the problems associated with that topic and therefore, IMO, delays progress.

      Not getting a chance to discuss ‘hot’ topics only prohibits our chances of nailing the warped lying bigots.

      You make good points which i agree with but sooner or later these demons have to be exorcised and i would rather people voted ‘Yes’ with their eyes wide open.

      Its up to us to educate and we can’t do that if we can’t talk.

    202. cirsium says:

      @boris, 1.2
      Churchill ruled out a Scottish coronation because of the symbolism. Atlee’s government had shelved the Scottish petition for Home Rule with its 2 million signatures and Churchill wanted it to remain quietly forgotten. An early example of UKOK.

    203. Nana Smith says:

      The Smith Commission’s Proposals – Big issues remain to be resolved

      http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7485

    204. Fred says:

      None of these Hanovarians has ever wore the Stewart crown anyhow and as there are about 150 folk on the continent with a better claim to plank their arses on the British throne than the present usurpers there’s no reason why we should slavishly follow our neighbour and award it to Charles Schleswig-Holstein Sonderburg-Glucksburg on Betty’s departure.
      The heavily minted Duchess of Caesar! expressed an interest in the Scottish crown at one time but she sadly shuffled off the mortal last month so mebbes we could have a televised X Factor for the competitors.

    205. ronnie anderson says:

      Continuation of the Devolution committee due to start 10.30 R2. Hollyrood TV

    206. Auld Rock says:

      Like many above I was content to accept Lizzie as head of state until her demise. But now I believe the Scottish people (and the rest of UK if we are still lumbered with them) should be asked what they want, monarchy or republic? Also under ‘Land Reform’ all their property should be returned to the people of Scotland with token compensation.

      Auld Rock

    207. Devorgilla says:

      @Macart. Yes, that’s my take on the Bella No articles too. The reasons people gave for voting No were shallow, deluded, or self-interested. Not one of them gave as their reasons a positive case for supporting the Union. All were based on a negative or even worse – an indifferent – view of Scotland. At the root, when you scraped it away and probed them gently, these folks felt little connection with Scotland, its history, identity, its sense of place and landscape. They were living lives in Scotland but not with Scotland which were very much on the surface.

      The only positive thing I can take away from it is that I think their views of Britain and of Britishness are probably equally lukewarm. It’s a condition which sociologists call ‘anomie’ or lack of connection to any form of community. Anomie is held to be a product of modernity.

      The saddest thing for me though is I ask myself: why did they bother voting at all? Why piss on one community’s sense of self-worth and aspiration just because you don’t happen to share it? Would they have voted against Palestinian self-determination? The moral thing to have done, if you didn’t really have a dog in the race, and were in some doubts, would have been to have abstained. But they felt they had to get their tuppence worth in by sticking the knife into hope.

      The lessons I learn from this are two-fold. 1. Project Fear and state propaganda worked disproportionally on these folk to compel them to void No, when their own disposition might have naturally disinclined them to not vote at all. 2. In the longer term, the existence of a Scottish Parliament being effective will act to make it clearer to these folks that Scotland is indeed a different place and one whose values are worthy of supporting.

    208. Nana Smith says:

      Charlie whose close friendship with the creepy DJ Saville reeks and to allow this man access to royalty and government ministers gives off a powerful stench.

      What did he know and what did he demand for his silence.

      Exaro.com is slowly uncovering a stinking pile of corruption.

      Meanwhile the state broadcaster maintains a blackout. Of course Saville was one of their own…

    209. Calgacus says:

      According to the Declaration of Arbroath Brenda is no longer our Queen as she conspired to keep us under the domination of the English.

      I was also quite happy with a constitutional monarchy but as the monarch does not behave in a constitutional manner then we are ruled by tyranny.

      Let us free ourselves from these parasites.

    210. Macart says:

      @ Devorgilla

      Well put.

      I suspect that such a revelation would leave them shocked, but I can see no other plausible explanation. When you cut their arguments down to essence it was what’s in it for me, what do I lose, what do I gain? Rationalising it, however plausibly, it still comes out as ‘me’ or ‘I’, not ‘we’.

      As I said above, just what did they gain? What they’ve lost can’t be measured.

    211. SlyPangloss says:

      I agree with Calgacus.
      She needs to be reminded there are more than 100 of us still standing.
      I’d lost my Republican edge about a decade ago because the thought of Bliar being head of state horrified me.
      Now an elected Scottish Head of State – that’s a different matter. I expect there to be a series of referendums after we go Indy. (Head of State/Currency/Europe etc.)

    212. boris says:

      Can anyone enlighten me. David Mundell, the wee tory in the south of Scotland is listed as unmarried in his propoganda page, but he was married at the time he was first elected. I know he has 2 possibly 3 children. Does anyone know what happened to Mrs Mundell

    213. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T would yous take your seats for the Judy Judy Judy show sorry nae Punch wud a kickboxer dey & on the ither side the scrip will be delivered by depity dug, Nicola keep the mop handy ah hate the sight o blood,mop n go.

    214. Jim Thomson says:

      Whilst on the subject of “preposterous truth”, it seems that the threshold for North Sea oil profitability, in terms of new exploration, is actually $60 a barrel according to Robin Allan, chairman of the independent explorers’ association Brindex.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30525539

    215. Marcia says:

      Boris

      He was divorced recently, maybe a couple of years ago.

    216. Walder Frey says:

      Nothing to say on the plummeting price of Brent Crude?

      http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/crude-oil-brent.aspx

      Robin Allan, chairman of the independent explorers’ association Brindex has been quoted saying :

      “It’s almost impossible to make money at these oil prices”, “It’s a huge crisis.”

      The business case for independence wasn’t made and now the White Paper’s valuation of oil is exposed as a farce.

    217. Craig P says:

      That’s interesting Jim Thomson re: oil price viability. I remember it was being pumped even at $10 a barrel around 1999, mind you wages will have been a bit lower then.

    218. bookie from hell says:

      I thought Kezia Dugdale did well first time #FMQs

    219. Helena Brown says:

      Boris, Re David Mundell, he is still listed as married, with 2 sons and a daughter. wife Lynda, née Carmichael. Well so Wekipedia says.

    220. HandandShrimp says:

      I think the latest revelations just confirm what Cameron inadvertently told us by the gift of an unseen microphone, the Queen purred like a contented cat at the news of the No victory.

      The Queen is the establishment and the establishment were against us. It is little surprise she sided with the No campaign and it is little surprise that the Yes side cannot look to the Monarch as a figurehead for a future Scotland. Many things have been determined by this vote and the path is clearer than it was despite the outcome.

    221. Devorgilla says:

      @Macart. Exactly. What did they gain? Nothing but austerity. The big question for me though, thinking tactically, is why did such essentially indifferent, disengaged, and disinterested people feel compelled to vote at all? The answer is that it is is down to Blair MacDougall’s identification of a large group of swing voters in this category which Project Fear attempted to corall.

      There was another article on Bella which made just this point: that McDougall was a good tactician (it worked – just). But a poor strategist. Because the No result and his sinister nihilist machinations to win this swing group have destroyed the Labour Party in Scotland. Flotsam like these swing voter folks don’t vote Labour; Scots do, or rather, DID.

    222. ScottieDog says:

      Jim Thompson,
      Yes it’s the shale plays in the states that will take a hammering. The difference with the North Sea is that the infrastructure is already in place and hence is isn’t as vulnerable to the price war.

    223. Fred says:

      Gleanings from the Windsor’s Old Xmas Card List.

      https://www.aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/5329/

    224. Marcia says:

      Boris

      Ignore my comment above -seems the internet search gave me the wrong person.

    225. Macart says:

      @ Devorgilla

      His job was to come up with a strategy to win a referendum. I doubt he gave much thought to what the fallout would be for his masters. The strategy as we’re all aware involved demonising almost half of the Scottish electorate and running down Scotland’s chances of ever being able to go it alone.

      Maybe just me, but people telling me how crap I am on a daily basis really won’t endear them to me or their pov. He may have successfully put enough people off voting for self determination to win the day, but the end result for those who sold the public this message of their supposed inadequacy? Enough to say that at best they are not trusted and at worst they are now despised and quite rightly so.

      They sold out and denigrated their own public, their own support in favour of continuing their careers. They sold out their founding ideals to bed down with the Tories and the continued establishment system. They don’t deserve to represent anyone in or out of the union. If you are prepared to enact such a strategy on your own public and wider body politic in order to maintain your tenuous grip on power and career, then you are capable of anything.

    226. Patrick Roden says:

      @Boris
      Quote:
      “Seemingly the Tories are putting up a strong candidate who enjoys membership of the Conservative Party Support’s Israel which cancels out Spud’s auto support of the 6000+ Jews in his constituency.”

      If that’s true it will prove to me that without any shadow of doubt that the Tories have played with a two-faced-coin during the Indy referendum and they had worked out that they could use ‘project fear’ to scare the elderly and low information voter, and also in the long term fillet the Labour Parties ‘traditional support’ in Scotland.

      I doubt they would hope to re-gain Murphy’s seat, but surely if they eat in to one of Murphs biggest voting blocks, they are hoping to help the SNP to take his seat.

      popcorn time of true!

      One more thing, up ’till now I have leant towards being a Monarchist, but from this day on I’m now a committed Republican, however I will not insult or call for the Queens head as this would not help, however it will be interesting to see if there has been any shifts in the next polls that ask Scots about their support for the royal family.

    227. Devorgilla says:

      @Macart. Exactly. An ex-Labour voter who had been a party member for 40 years (but no more) told me the other day that when the indyref started up she had looked around for Labour for Yes, and had fully expected the Labour Party to support indy as they had devolution in 1997. It had come as a great shock to her to realise that Labour were opposing this and were in cahoots with the Tories. She eventually became aware of Labour for Independence but only after a long search. She’s now joined the SNP.

      Pyrrhic victory doesn’t even begin to describe it.

    228. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Nothing to say on the plummeting price of Brent Crude?”

      Yawn. Get back to me in spring 2016 when that might be of the slightest relevance to anything.

    229. Walder Frey says:

      “Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      18 December, 2014 at 2:34 pm
      “Nothing to say on the plummeting price of Brent Crude?”

      Yawn. Get back to me in spring 2016 when that might be of the slightest relevance to anything.”

      Are you suggesting the pricing of Brent Crude by the SNP in the white paper is accurate? Valuing the commodity at $136 per barrel?

      I actually voted Yes, but I’m not afraid to admit that I was wrong. I’m actually very relieved that as a country we voted no. I am now very concerned for my future as a North Sea Oil worker. It’s worrying times for our trade.

    230. Croompenstein says:

      I actually voted Yes

      Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells
      Jingle all the way…….

    231. Graham says:

      REv very clever to dismiss comments on the oil prices,especially from a well heeled Scot living in Bath.
      You should address a persons concerns with less flippancy.
      The history of Scotland is littered with Scots dumping on Scots as it is in most countries.
      Read an interesting deconstruct of you Blue book of course it may not be true,but it is like your ramblings very persuasive

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      Graham
      Would you agree with the blog post below? I found it very persuasive, as it seemed to chime with reality.

      http://salterlee.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/stop-the-celebrations-you-imperialist-pigdogs-indyref-scotland/

    233. call me dave says:

      No matter what the oil price is the income at present is spread over about 60m people in an independent Scotland it would be about 6M people.

      However many countries like Scotland can manage without.

      Independence is not dependent on oil but whatever the amount or price it’s a welcome asset.

    234. Lollysmum says:

      The fact is that they can only hit SNP & Salmond on oil price & currency from the White Paper. No other criticisms will fly.

      The fact is that oil price is being artificially manipulated for political purposes by govt together with US & Saudi (OPEC)-they are flooding the market with excess oil to force the price down whereas they would normally cut back on production to keep the oil price stable.

      This hits both Putin’s rouble & US shale gas industry

      Any job losses are down to WM manoevring for political purposes & voters need to remember this come GE2015. Cameron is at the centre of that decision & should be made to pay the price for it.

    235. Robert Peffers says:

      While I have never been a monarchist I have had no particular gripe with the present emcumbent.

      I have now”.

    236. Robert Peffers says:

      Pentland Firth says:17 December, 2014 at 5:09 pm:

      “Frankly, I don’t think it influenced any votes one way or the other, but it does illustrate how terrified the Establishment were.”

      I hate to contradict you, Pentland, but until that very moment I had no particular strong feelings one way or the other about the royals. I do now. The establishment just do not understand the Scots psyche, or as my old Granny would put it, “Aiblins they dinna ken wir aa maistly Scots up here an wir aa muckle conter”.

    237. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says:17 December, 2014 at 5:34 pm:

      … In any event, she exhibited naked power, and how she does not care for real democracy visited upon her subjects.”

      Legally, Grouse Beater, we Scots are NOT
      anyone’s subjects. This is clearly set out in Scots law and was a major part of the Declaration of Arbroath. The facts are that when Bruce, the Scots Monarch, murdered the Red Comyn on the alter steps of the Dumfrise High Kirk the leader of all Christendom, the Pope in Rome, excommunicated Bruce.

      The law in force throughout Christendom at that time was, “The Devine Right of Kings”. This meant Kings were appointed by God and owned everything in their royal realm and that included all their subjects. Thus, when Bruce was excommunicated, so were everyone of his subjects. In fact it is on record that all English church services were commanded by the Pope to begin by cursing Scotland.

      This was the thoughts behind the Declaration of Arbroath. An excommunicant could not have divine right and neither could the person he murdered. Scotland was thus a prime prize for the English to take over. The Declaration stated that Scotland was an independent Kingdom but more importantly that the Scottish monarchs were NOT sovereign. That under Scottish law the people were sovereign and the Monarch was appointed be them as, “Protector of the people’s sovereignty”. This, in fact, makes the royal person our subject. Here is the English translation of the relevant section from the Declaration that states the above:-

      speaking about King Robert) “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

      Now I wonder how many who know the quote from, ” … for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive”, know the little important bit they so often fail to teach in Scottish History?

      “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King”

      Now, Grouse Beater, can you state just where in history we Scots gave up our sovereignty to a monarch? The English Welsh and Irish certainly have never been legally sovereign, for when the Kingdom of England’s parliament overthrew King James II of England and imported King Billy & Queen Mary, in 1688, as their monarchy, the English parliament took from them the royal veto over parliament and thus made only those three countries of the English Kingdom a Constsutional Monarchy. They did not, though, change the legal fact that everything belonged to their Monarchy. Which is why it is still Her Majesty’s Government, Treasury, Armed Forces. et al.

    238. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Same here Robert. Beforehand I didn’t think one way or another about our monarchy.

      Now though? If we had a referendum on Republic or constitutional monarchy?

      Let’s just say that little stunt made my mind up for me.

    239. Gallowglass says:

      @Marga

      It strokes both sides, civil servants in both governments were clearly engaged in political debate. You only have to look at the contrasting Westminster Papers to the Independence White Paper.

      That’s my point, and those on each side will always decry the machinery operating for the other.

    240. Gallowglass says:

      @MJarga

      The Edinburgh Agreement is done now, and there were serious enough questions about how binding it was. It’s got nothing to do with a Jock attitude but a reflection of the Westminster and political system.

    241. Gallowglass says:

      @heedtracker

      I don’t mean to creep you out, but this retrospective foul card movement will achieve fuck all.

      If I had any faith it would, I’d probably be doing it myself. But I’m more intelligent than that.

      The strategy failed, or wasn’t good enough to take on the might of the British State. Either which way, dragging that defeat out like so many chapters of our history would be a great folly.

      But if people want to fantasise about grand Inquiries and that some world institution will come to our rescue is naive and I don’t want to see the movement fracture because of it. I think this could be an unfortunate watershed for us if people can’t accept it was a defeat and there is no going back.

    242. Gallowglass says:

      @heedtracker

      Are we condemned to the 18th of September 2014?

      Because if that’s what you lot insist upon, we’ll never achieve independence.

      That date is history now.



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