stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


The makings of a deal

Posted on February 22, 2018 by

A timely reminder about how much 85% of British people (or to put that another way, English people) really value the rest of the UK.

“Lead us, Scotland, don’t leave us!” is going to be a pretty hard sell next time.

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    374 to “The makings of a deal”

    1. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nick Eardley
      ?
      Verified account

      @nickeardleybbc

      22m22 minutes ago

      So as expected no breakthrough in talks between UK and Scottish Governments on Withdrawal Bill. @scotgov to introduce its own continuity bill next week.

      Constitutional Crisis looms. But the ordinary punters in England don’t give a hee-haw because their government has, for decades (if not centuries) lied to them about Scotland’s ‘worth’ to their precious Union.

      Fine.

    2. Arbroath1320 says:

      Think I’ve found their wee slogan thingy for next time … thanks for the clue Stu. 😉

      Instead of “Lead us, Scotland, don’t leave us!” their new slogan will be …. *drum roll* …. “Leave us, Scotland, don’t lead us!”

      Just getting ma hat and coat. 😀

    3. Bob Mack says:

      So, if we can make clear to the southern voter that we mean to stay,and are prepared to constantly sabotage their Brexit then they will want rid of us anyway, ironically enough to obtain their “freedom”

      Let’s put the pressure on them.

    4. Greannach says:

      Dan Snow! Eddie Izzard! Trinny and Susanna! David Bowie (oops!) Uncle Tom Cobley! And all!

      You’re own people aren’t listening to you. We aren’t feeling their love like we felt yours.

      Dan – what will happen to your inheritance? I grieve.

    5. Doug Bryce says:

      Brexit = British Nationalism

      When Norway voted not to join the EU in 1994 by identical 48:52 margin the compromise option was to join the EEA. The obvious problem is that UK government has already taken that option off the table… However hard brexit remains an un-achievable fantasy they are unable to deliver without serious consequences.

      Nationalistic hubris and Tory xenopohbia now driving the brexit debate. Ask yourself who the real nationalists are 😉

    6. heedtracker says:

      Future England is rather hard to forecast really. English nationalism’s always been British but it looks like they’re pulling away from all that jazz.

      You just keep wondering why the great beeb gimp network gave UKIPers like Fuhrage such massive power.

    7. Mike says:

      There own project fear media circus turn around and bites them in the arse. Not only has it convinced the gullible in Scotland but also the gullible in England as well. It could come to pass that the people of England will insist on Scottish Independence is the English media keep feeding them the dependency myth often enough.

    8. Donald anderson says:

      That is because the English punters believe wot their politicians and MSM tell them: that they are subsidising us. The politicians and media know better and are being stuck on their own lies.

      Einstein said that you do not have to be a genius to tell the truth.

    9. scottieDog says:

      But you will never see an English mp push for English secession. They have brainwashed the English population into thinking they subsidise us. It would be hilarious if there was a huge public push for English indy..

    10. Macart says:

      A pretty sad and dark place. The self interest of the one, willing to sacrifice the lives and welfare of the other in pursuit of their own agenda. See also under ‘greed is good’ and ‘do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law’.

      The UK has basically boiled down to political and media soundbite driving a reactionary public opinion. It’s marked by a willingness of the empowered to place others directly in harms way to achieve… whatever. Undermine trust in institutions, services, even each other. THAT is today’s UK. A political class that would even throw their own support under a bus to achieve personal goals.

      Personally though, I’d say this is not a time for ‘I told you so’. It’s more a time for ‘here is how we get out of this’ and ‘we could really use your help’. The political union and its support are marked by who it alienates. It’s marked by intimidation and threat. It’s marked by the fear it spreads. It’s marked by its sense of entitlement and what/who it is willing to sacrifice to continue enjoying that entitlement. It’s also marked by beyond this callous disregard for those in its care by its enormous ineptitude.

      No one needs to live like this and no one has to. We CAN change the appalling situation we’ve been placed in, but we have to want to.

    11. Martin says:

      I’m growing increasingly confident of Scottish Independence. However I’m more and more concerned about the impact of Brexit. Not on Scotland, as I say I think we’ll end up indy and probably in some form of EU or EU lite. But I know people in England and NI. Frankly I’m worried about their future. Especially NI. They seem to be acceptable collateral.

    12. allan thomson says:

      stuart

      I am a regular visitor to your site, occasionally don’t like your tone, but mostly appreciate your efforts to expose the hypocrisy and lies perpetrated by politicians, the media and sundry others.

      but on this occasion, are you doing what you criticise in others … ie. does your “headline” accurately reflect the detail below (bad enough as that is) ?

    13. galamcennalath says:

      Ordinary English Leave voters would accept Scottish independence if that resulted from Brexit, 88% of them. Sounds reasonable. They want their independence too, after all.

      However, I am fairly sure the UK / English Establishment won’t see it that way! The international prestige, security implications, oil, exports, fishing that come from retaining their Greater England on these Isles, is possibly more important to them than Brexit.

      As for destabilising the Irish peace process, that seems on the face of it callous. However, it can be interpreted another way. It means they just don’t care at all about NI and if it too left the UK, they wouldn’t shed a tear.

      All this suggests a tidy solution to the Brexit ‘problem’ awaits. England can have its independence and go its own road. Scotland and NI can follow up on their EURef stance and take a more EU centric path.

      Seems that would make most folks everywhere happy.

      Another however, the ruling elites with their imperial tendencies won’t see it that way. Also, minorities everywhere would be left without unions they want to remain part of for their own cultural reasons – tough. Eurofiles can move to Scotland or Ireland and wannabe English can move there, if they are that keen.

    14. Proud Cybernat says:

      “We voted as ONE United Kingdom for Brexit” the BritNats often claim.

      In that one sentence we perceive their thinking – One Nation UK. These people really believe the UK is just one ‘country’ and seem entirely ignorant of the fact that there are several distinct geopolitical entities that make up the ‘UK’, England being the largest and Scotland the second largest.

      These BritNats simply cannot perceive the notion that Scotland is a distinct geopolitical entity of the UK and is only a member of the UK through its political union of 1707 with England. Ostensibly a voluntary union.

      It is only the rise of the SNP that has brought this assumption of ‘One Nation UK’ to the fore; it is only the rise of the SNP that has questioned the ‘accepted wisdom’ and which has began to reassert Scotland as a distinct geopolitical entity of the UK union with RIGHTS within that political union.

      And one of those rights is, as a sovereign people, we do not HAVE to meekly accept what the larger body of the UK wants. Finally Scotland has found its voice and we are saying loudly and proudly “STUFF YER BREXIT! WE’RE NO’ HAVIN’ ANY OF IT!”

      The rise of the SNP, to my mind, came at just the right time. Imagine if Scotland had still continued to vote SLabour over the last decade. Had that happened then Scotland’s different political outlook would have been completely ignored as SLabour acquiesced and simply did as its parent body in London told it.

      It is BECAUSE of SLabour & STory decades of silence on Scottish interests that the idea of ‘One Nation UK’ was able to flourish. We just sat and ate our cereal and let the big people in London to sort it all out for us.

      But NO MORE. Scotland, through the rise of the SNP, has at last found its voice and London is about to realise the One Nation UK is nothing but a powder-puff myth of their own making and that Scotland, as a geopolitical entity and signatory of the 1707 union, DOES HAVE RIGHTS and can exert those rights at any damn time it pleases.

      Scotland WILL NOT be dragged to a political future it utterly rejects and all the Queen’s horses and all the Queen’s men won’t ever force us to do so.

      Scotland has awoken and we’re not going back to sleep again any time soon.

    15. Greannach says:

      Allan Thomson @ 1.54pm

      I’m not sure I see the problem with “The makings of a deal” as a headline.

    16. mogabee says:

      ‘Deal with it, Scotland’ mair like!

      That’s ok, we now have clarity on where we stand so it’s inref2 then… 😀

    17. Dr Jim says:

      The only way England will learn is after they’ve been crushed humiliated and destroyed
      Ach what am I saying probably not even then, they’ll blame everybody else and demand war on somebody join up with Trump and turn teachers into potential murderers and give even more excuses to student head cases with a grudge to start murdering their teachers

      It’s like were living in a new land of the walking dead, don’t for God sake get infected by Britnatillocis or you’ll have to be shot to save your soul from searching out uninfected brains to eat

      Maybe the threat to the world isn’t digital interference it’s biological warfare to turn the world into brain dead Loon Yoons

      It’s totally worked in England, maybe the cold up here helps keep it at bay

    18. Bob Mack says:

      @Allan Thomson,

      The headline makes perfect sense IF you know that talks on Scotland contribution to the EU debate broke up today without any deal. Hope that helps.

      Ps Scottish government looks like it will introduce it’s own Bill next week.

    19. mogabee says:

      Dr Jim

      Kinda nice that the cold is good for something!

    20. allan thomson says:

      Greannach at 1.57

      Apologies for my own loose wording; by “heading”, I was referring to Stuart’s 2-line extrapolation from the research detailed below

    21. Bob Mack says:

      Boy, this whole thing is an utter clus**feck and no mistake.

      I have seriously tried to work out the different permutations but everything ends in negativity. N Ireland could go back to civil war. Scotland if deprived of our ancient rights could be very problematic. The Tory voters would go on mass to whatever faction hated the EU the most.

      It is way too complex to predict. However,I can see the Union disintegrating no matter which way you run it. It is just not feasible to see any other sustainable outcome. Every day that passes adds new permutations to the pot.

    22. vlad (not that one) says:

      Current political situation gives me creeps. I cannot quite pin this down, but somehow it brings to mind the way Europe sleepwalked into catastrophe 103 years ago.

    23. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hell mend them.

      Some folk won’t be happy until we’re back to full-on feudal shite where gammon-faced John Bull BBCQT escapees can summarily execute waifs for stealing buns from Ye Olde Market Fayre.

    24. Tinto Chiel says:

      I completely believe most ordinary English people want rid of us tiresome, whingeing Sweaties, whom they have been taught are drunken mendicants and an ungrateful drain on England’s resources, plus we talk funny.

      Unfortunately, their masters know the real situation within this Glorious Union.

      As those political deep thinkers, Sweet, said in 1973, “Does anyone know the way? There’s got to be a way to Blockbuster.”

      Oh, wait, just had an idea…..

    25. Welsh Sion says:

      Although it’s the BBC, I thought you might like to know what’s happening “back home”.

      Wales and Scotland in lock-step.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43146619

    26. allan thomson says:

      Bob Mack at 2.07

      Thanks, Bob

      I’m aware of current developments + don’t disagree with the sentiments being expressed btl by others.

      However, I think we should hold ourselves to higher standards than our opponents and would suggest that we haven’t done so on this occasion, in that the detail quoted does not support Stuart’s summation

    27. Robert Louis says:

      With every passing day I get angrier at Brexit, and the FACT that Labour support hard brexit, just like the Tories.

      Brexiteers are quite happy to make everybody poorer in order to achieve brexit. They are truly the stupidest, most selfish people on planet earth. It is hardly surprising then, they don’t really care if Scotland becomes independent, and we go back to the troubles in N.Ireland.

      Of course, people who buy into the brexit bullsh*t, don’t really grasp the meaning of the phrase ‘it will definitely damage the economy and trade’. They think of ‘the economy’ as an abstract thing, which ‘city types’ worry about, whilst the FTSE rises and falls. Nothing to do with them, they naively think. Nobody has explained to them that they really will be poorer, food and clothes will be much more expensive, their foreign holidays and flights WILL get more expensive, and many of them REALLY will lose their jobs. That is what ‘damage to the economy’ actually means.

      But then the people driving brexit won’t suffer. Theresa May, David Davis, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, Jeremy Corbyn are all filthy rich, and then their is Mr.Hard brexit himself, Rees Mogg, one of the very richest in Westminster. They won’t notice flights getting more expensive, they won’t lose their jobs. They already have their savings stashed away abroad, with their gold-plated MP and cabinet minister pensions, multi million pound London houses and so on.

      And that really is the insidious fact about brexit. The people pushing it hardest are those (mostly past retirement age) who have already benefited from tuition fee free education, the career advantages of free movement across the EU, the growth in the economy from joining the EU, the financial benefits that came from it, the employment laws and social protections that came with it. They got the benefits, but now in what can only be described as perhaps the most selfish act in world history, they want to remove all of that for our young people.

      In a few years, after brexit, all those people I named above, will be either dead or retired living out their lives on some exotic location, with their evil act of brexit, something that just doesn’t affect them. It is the younger generation who will be left with their mess. If I was still in my 20’s, I’d be b**** furious with these people in both Labour and the Tories. Selfish, selfish, selfish.

      But, but ,but they say ‘we’ll get a deal with the EU on better or just as good terms as we already have’. That is just so deluded as to be laughable – if it wasn’t so serious. It is like a person saying they are leaving their golf club, because they are sick of its annual fees, petty laws and restrictions, and then turning up at the clubhouse expecting to buy a pint at the club subsidised rates. Even if the barman were so inclined, it just cannot happen, because all those who DO PAY for membership would likely rip him a new one, if he even tried.

      That is the absurdity of brexit. That is the utter, utter cold hearted selfishness of Corbyn, Farage, May, Johnson, Rees Mogg and the others.

      Scotland cannot get out of this cursed, dysfuntional. undemocratic and UNWANTED ‘union’ with England soon enough.

    28. Bob Mack says:

      @Allen Thomson,

      I honestly believe that our standards are much higher than our opponents. I can put my hand on my heart and state that both the Tory and Labour are duplicit liars. Perhaps their voters believe what they say is true, but they question nothing and still vote for them.

      Our opponents standards are so low an ant could walk over them without breaking step. I think they need to bring themselves up to our level rather than us moving to match them.

      That’s just how I feel, rightly or wrongly.

    29. Dr Jim says:

      Wow! within minutes almost the Internet starts filling up with sufferers of Britnatillosis calling for a referendum in England to abolish the Scottish parliament with many just calling for the abolition of Scotland altogether

      Looks as though we’re being as much of an obstruction to England as the Irish are

      There wont be enough Hazmat suits and vaccinations to go round

      Save yourelves

    30. Robert Louis says:

      Vlad (not that one) at 220pm

      I have to say, you are not alone in your concerns. It is akin to a madness, getting out of control. A portent of things to come.

    31. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      allan thomson @ 14:16,

      You may be strictly correct there, Allan. The research quoted by Stu indicates 88% of English Leave voters don’t give a damn about Scotland, but it doesn’t say anything about the opinion of the Remain voters, if that is your point.

      They may or may not be more eager to accommodate us. All those media love-bomber types, for example, from whom we’ve never heard a peep of support since 2014.

    32. yesindyref2 says:

      Go now Scotland, just go.

      OK ta, don’t mind if we do.

    33. Ottomanboi says:

      The UKGB has always been about England. English history and culture is the ever present background theme.
      Bribery and political corruption enabled England to ‘acquire’ Scotland. The notion that there was some new and special relationship initiated as a result of the 1707 Union is a ‘Scotch myth’.
      As far as England was/is concerned we have been annexed. Scots travelling to England’s capital and sitting in the English parliament was confirmation of that.
      On velum it may have been the UKGB but functionally it was England. A fact born out by the usage of equivalents of the latter term in foreign languages and among the English generally to designate the larger island of the North West Atlantic archipelago.
      This is an invidious situation to be in. To have been in it for 300+ years is a case of Stockholm syndrome with brass knobs on.
      What mind numbing drug are those patriotic Scottish unionists on?

    34. Bob Mack says:

      What we already know is beyond arguement. The Tories and their supporters, and other Party’s based in Scotland, do not actually want Scotland to exist as a separate country within the UK. They want everything to be decided at Westminster.

      They probably view Devolution as an experiment which has gone badly for the integrity and control of the UK as an entity.

      Our experience since 2007 has taught us that we can decide for ourselves what we do with our own money. Whilst this has been largely successful,other parts of the UK have struggled, and I mean England. Social conscience across the border is becoming a thing of the past.

      They have only three options. To break us and re impose Direct rule, to let us go our own way by our own choice or the choice of English voters, or to create Federalism, which would eventually magnify their initial problem.

      No matter what they choose,it is problematic in some way or other.

    35. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Of course we care about the fate of our English cousins, many of whom don’t agree at all with the way their country appears to be heading, and who haven’t any obvious political route out of their mess, unlike us.

      But just as in the HoC, keeping our few voices in with theirs means we are simply drowned out in all the shouting and are consequently ignored. So staying with them out of some kind of misguided sympathy doesn’t in the end help either of us, alas.

      Just as some people in the North of England began to realise, having an independent Scottish neighbour can actually help them more, because then we can act as a counterbalance, can speak up against all the nonsense as independent agents and be heard.

      And be a refuge of last resort for those who find they have much more in common with us. To our mutual benefit.

    36. Lynne says:

      English ally here…
      Allen Thomson has a point – the findings were about ‘Leave voters in England’, a clear minority (53% of the 73% turnout). Stuart’s summary implied it was 85% of the whole population. I’d like to think we’re not *quite* as bad as that down here.

    37. Returnofthemac says:

      The future is Jacob Rees Moggy. Boris and Gove Ffs NO voters, Brexit voters is this what you really want?

    38. Bob Mack says:

      The article by Stu clearly states the percentages are for “leave” voters. Whether we like it or not 80% odd percent of 17 million leave voters who would dissolve Scotland is a lot of people.

    39. Referendum1707 says:

      Re getting english plebs all worked up about having the scottish monkey on their back and what a super soaraway success their economy would be if they just got rid of us.

      This is something which should be pursued more actively. I’m thinking of registering on to a few mainstream sites/blogs/forums, i.e. sports, slebs, mumsnet kind of things where there’s high traffic from england (I don’t use twitter or facespook) and with a username like “prideofessex” or something and whenever an opportunity arises on a thread to convincingly insert a comment about it, not out of the blue obviously it’d have to look spontaneous, saying something like if we could just dump scotland think how much we’d save etc etc and then urge other readers to contact their mp’s and DEMAND that they take steps to kick scotland out of the union.

      You’d get a few who’d say that if we “lose” scotland we’re screwed well just use their own propaganda guff back on them with some ludicrous figures about how much it costs them to subsidise scotland.

      Just think if it actually started gaining traction the look of consternation on britnat politicians faces would make it worth it if nothing else.

    40. Bob Mack says:

      @Referendum 1707,

      I had a similar idea. Instead of being defensive why not do a fifth column on them ? People do react when they think they are being deprived of something somebody else is getting instead. More than one way to skin a cat.

    41. geeo says:

      “My name is liddle englander, and i dont care if my relatives in Scotland become foreigners, as long as i get brexit, so i can hate immigrants and mooslums..”

      Seems about right. Sadly.

      English people want the Tories, they get tory.

      They want labour, they get labour.

      They want brexit, they get brexit.

      All in the name of “the people have decided, and we are democrats”

      The english people want shot of Scotland..”shut up and eat your cereal while squirrel watching”…!!

    42. Dan Huil says:

      This so-called precious united kingdom is a sick joke. Time to put it out of its misery. It seems many in England agree.

    43. Pictish Freak says:

      Less shooting themselves in the foot, more like sawing off both legs from the neck.

      So, leave EU for vast sums but more say on food safety standards, even if at the expense of the highest contributors to the UK coffers & the very real danger of going back to the violence – bombings, shootings etc – of 1968 – 1998?

      What a legacy.

    44. Ian McCubbin says:

      Hope SNP get this message and move to leave without a referendum. It seems now that would be just a red herring.

      There is hope and probably jobs a coming for the young in Scotland.

    45. galamcennalath says:

      The survey and figures seem to have appeared Sept last year. Here’s an article from the National …

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15567727.Nearly_90__of_England_s_Leave_voters_would_sacrifice_the_Union_to_ensure_Brexit_happens/

      I can see other references but not the original report or full data.

      All the snippets refer to Leave voters.

    46. Peter Brunskill says:

      Not sure I believe the survey TBH. I don’t think 80 odd percent off English Leave voters are really that stupid on either account.

      However 80% of about 40% is still a minority of idiots, smaller than the minority of USA idiots who supported Trump.

    47. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      Heard part of a ‘Brexit’ programme on R4 at noon today in which a Professor McCann (?Sheffield Uni?) who is doing research into the regional effects of Brexit informed listeners that the parts of the UK least likely to feel the full effects of Brexit are the more PROSPEROUS ones, ie the SE of England and Scotland!! Well that puts the ‘too poor’ bit to sleep. Thanks for reinforcing our belief, Professor. He also pointed out that these were also the areas which voted to Remain. He further mentioned that ‘Scotland has been drifting away and going its own way now for over 20 years’! Somebody’s paying attention at last. Maybe he could have a chat with BritNat politicos and waken them up. Scotland’s on the move, get used to it.

      The programme then went on to examine those areas in England which might suffer the most and which ironically voted Leave, eg West Midlands and northern England.

      Trade delegations from the Birmingham area have been visiting regions of Germany to cement relationships there in order, presumably, to get deals etc in the future. Fair enough, they are trying to get things moving, but I couldn’t help but wonder why, therefore, they voted Leave in the first place. Wouldn’t it have been simpler just to remain? What a mess. And briefly as this is developing into a big post, another businessman said that although he has dealings with China already, you can’t just turn up with a ‘trade deal’ and expect to get business right away. Sometimes it takes years to get a foot in the door.

    48. manandboy says:

      In IndyRef14, the then PM David Cameron’s view was that a margin of 10% would be required to effect a broad acceptance of the result. (And so a No 55%/ Yes 45% was engineered with the aid of a number of 96% world record turnouts in the postal ballots heavily favouring No, and out of sync with the remaining vote.) But that’s all in the past where it will remain until the Public Enquiry.

      My point is that a 4% majority for Leave in the EU Referendum is destined to create an almost permanent sense of grievance in England leading to endless national bickering and, more importantly, a national divide. As the inevitable decline sets in, tension and pressure will increase particularly among those paying the highest price which will be the majority and will not include the wealthy nor the Establishment.

      The glue that holds English society together will degrade even further until those living desperate lives in poverty, unemployment and general marginalisation will reach the end of their Tory tether and then the disintegration of the whole will rapidly ensue.

      Alternatively, the rest of the world could be wrong.

    49. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Referendum1707 @ 15:25,

      I see where you’re coming from, but it mightn’t be too good an idea to add to English xenophobia. They have more than enough of that already. (And they remain our nearest neighbours!)

      I was thinking of something akin, mind you, but instead directed at the PSBs here. There must come a point when those wishful-thinking cringers have to wake up to the reality of how despised and ignored they in fact are by their fondly-supposed southern “equals”.

      This is an unsurprising poll result I’ve been wanting to see for some time, and is definitely worth broadcasting widely here.

    50. Cubby says:

      Ross Thomson = Total Bampot.

    51. @Referendum1707

      If you put an advert on a big red bus saying,

      We send Scotland £350,000,000 a week,
      let`s fund our NHS instead,
      Let`s take back control.

      the little Englanders would be all over that like a cat over catnip,

      they would have the Union dissolved within weeks.

    52. Dr Jim says:

      It’s rather ironic in a way that many in England would like a vote on rejecting Scotland from *Their* Union
      although one would have to wonder as is the case with the EU would they also like to cherry pick all the things about Scotland they might demand to keep and if we dissagreed with their assessment of what they want would we be considered as evil and nasty and obstructive as the EU when we said no

      Do they in England not realise for example that Scotland owns more than 8% of all UK assets including their precious armed forces and that when England leaves Scotland they’ll have to take their Trident missiles with them and then pay Scotland back the money they’ve already removed from Scotland which we payed to have them built and maintained

      That’s just for a wee start, the list is endless of what it would cost England to leave their own Union and as we know they can’t even afford the bill they have at the moment from the EU for the same folly unless they hang on to Scotland to help them pay for it

      Having said all that would I jump as high as hell if they did dissolve the Union?

      I doubt I would ever come down to earth for a good long while along with most of us

      See you in the sky folks, cheering!

    53. Vestas says:

      To the English people/people in England saying “oh no they/we’re not that bad” :

      Yes you are. Well the majority of you are anyway.

      Outside major metropolitan areas (London, Brum, Manchester) the English are almost entirely unaware of anything but England. They view Scotland & Ireland as “pretend” countries who still “depend on us”. They view people who come from there as “others”.

      Paternalistic is about the kindest thing you could say, I’m not going to go into the worst I’ve seen in 29 years down here.

      “Scotland – is that still a thing?” is something one of my (English) daughter’s friends said recently. No joke.

      The other daughter is in uni in Bournemouth (Illustration) and gets told she comes from “up north” by everyone. She was born in Leicester and gets seriously pissed off with their disparanging tones. Scots? Heh just imagine what they think.

      England is that bad outside major metropolitan areas – its a nasty xenophobic right-wing racist shithole if we’re being frank.

      Oh and yes I do intend leaving – soon as eldest daughter finishes uni.

    54. Thepnr says:

      Who said that?

      “Nothing is more important to me than seeing this United Kingdom thrive. Our precious union of nations is the most successful that the world has ever seen.

      And we have been joined together as one country for over 300 years. We have worked together, we have prospered together, we have fought wars together.And we have a bright future. I think there’s a bright future for us all.”

      Clue: The statement ended with “Now is not the time”.

      One thing not to forget either is that the Tories have stated that Indyref2 is “impossible” before the next Holyrood elections in 2021.

      I think just like a “deep and special relationship” with the EU after Brexit it’s more likely that such fantasising will turn around and bite the Tories in the bum.

    55. jfngw says:

      I see some are unhappy with the claim in the first paragraph.

      Well almost 58% either voted remain or didn’t vote in England. If they are not willingly accepting the current likely outcome, the loss of Scotland and the risk to the Northern Ireland peace process, then it’s time to speak up and do something about it. If they don’t we can only assume they are of the same persuasion.

    56. galamcennalath says:

      Underlying problem is the awful way referendums have been run. In both IndyRef1 and EURef, the winning option wasn’t in any clear and coherent way defined.

      In EURef, the choice should have been Cameron’s EU negotiated deal versus no change.

      In IndyRef1, the choice should have been the Scottish Government well documented plan for Indy versus no change.

      In both cases the vote became a choice between a documented option and f’ck-knows-what.

      The problem is f’ck-knows-what won in both cases!

      If a government had wanted to offer either DevoMax in IndyRef1 OR Leave in EURef these should have been worked out BEFORE the votes and a clear case presented.

      The result of both referendums decided nothing IMO.

      A sceptic would say that both were torpedoed intentionally to allow the Establishment a free hand to impose the outcome it actually wanted!

    57. Bob Mack says:

      I forgot to add. Just to complete Tory woes it appears their upper class boroughs in and around London are about to give them a kicking as well because of Brexit. They trail the polls in those areas by significant amounts. Happy days. Another fly in the Tory ointment, because these are there reliable seats.

    58. sensibledave says:

      … so how does is this “square” with the constantly voiced meme here that the “English” want to hang on to SCotland so that we can oppress, dominate and pillage the land?

      As I have always said, on the whole, the “ENglish” are ambivalent about the Union. Most think that those nations that that want to stay should stay – and those that want to leave should leave. Its that in-built respect of democracy and fair play.

      With respect to the ROI/NI issue, the only reason there might be a hard border built – is because the EU builds one. The UK will not.

      This issue is being used as a pawn by the EU in the negotiations. Ireland’s economy will be decimated if this matter is not resolved sensibly by willing parties looking for a mutually beneficial solution.

      It amazes me that some of you are are so partisan that you you only ever “read” these issues as reflecting badly on the UK. Who is it doing the threatening? Who wants a hard border? Whose country will suffer the most if a hard border is installed on the island of Ireland. Who is playing with people’s livelihoods as part of the negotiations?

    59. Ian Clark says:

      The mismatch between the English Leave voters (referred to in the box) and the English people (lines one and two) has been mentioned by a few people. Most English Remain voters will almost certainly not display the little Englander mentality of many of the Leave voters.

      However it might be interesting to know what percentage of English Remainers would push for Scottish independence in the hypothetical case of our independence being a condition of England becoming part of the EU.

      It might be complicated trying to extract useful information from answers to this particular hypothetical question which engages mixed motives and loyalties. But it would certainly give current No voters here another indication of how much – or should that be how little? – the ‘Union’ is valued by our neighbours in the South.

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – defence
      There’s a lot in the rUK against PESCO because they think it would be an army controlled by Brussels. It’s not true at all, all control over forces committed, and hardware etc. remains in the hands of the member state contribuitng them.

      But the UK itself supported the idea of PESCO even while not going to be a part of it (this is before the EU Ref). NATO is wary in case it’s counter-productive, and there are currently talks, but I guess NATO’s wariness is exaggerated by defence writers, or any media, who don’t like PESCO (or the EU).

      But if it works out as it should do, it can maximise the use of defence spend by member countries, especially perhaps smaller members, with common training and logistics, and for Independent Scotland that could be a boon.

      https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/34226/permanent-structured-cooperation-pesco-factsheet_en

      I post defence stuff because we Indy supporters are already planning for Independence, including the detail 🙂

    61. Proud Cybernat says:

      … so how does is this “square” with the constantly voiced meme here that the “English” want to hang on to SCotland so that we can oppress, dominate and pillage the land?

      Listen and learn, ya nugget. It’s the BritNat political Establishment in England that want to “hang on to Scotland” (because, unlike the ordinary English people who have been lies to about Scotland for centuries), the Establishment know the true value of Scotland to its well-being. The English general public are likely split on the issue of Scotland becoming indy, just as they were pretty much split with Brexit. Do you know what the difference is between the ‘BritNat Political Establishment’ and the ordinary ‘people of England’? Learn it. Understand it. The vast majority of folks in the indy movement have no issue with ordinary English people – just the BritNat Establishment. But you KNOW THAT, don’t you. You’re just here to stir things. No’ happenin’ ya mad rocket.

      “As I have always said, on the whole, the “ENglish” are ambivalent about the Union.”

      And as we always tell you Mr Mad Rocket – Scotland’s Indy isn’t about England, it’s about SCOTLAND. You figured that one out yet? That Scotland wants to dissolve the Union is NOT ABOUT YOU although I’m pretty sure that must come as a shock to your like because how can Scotland’s aspirations not be about YOU?

      Penny dropped yet? We know how you like to think England is the centre of the omniverse and everything but get THIS – Scotland’s Indy is NOT ABOUT YOU or anyone else in England?

      Now eff off!

    62. Breeks says:

      We should caw canny with the principle.

      Said it before, but the wiser Remainers down south, those who currently dread and despair about the future Brexit, MIGHT be amenable to the subtle suggestion that forgetting all the hysteria, an Indy Scotland in the EU might actually be no bad thing. If both Scotland and England’s respective governments were to make an issue about the convention of the UK’s unitary market, and use that as a mechanism to maintain traditional links between Scotland and England, it could, repeat could, give a Brexited England an economic lifeline to channel EU trade through Scotland. Scotland would be a sovereign Nation in the EU, fully Independent, but with a unique, ad hoc buffer status for trade and legislation between the squabbling cousins, England and Europe.

      Don’t dismiss the idea out of hand. A significant body of English opinion seeing Scottish Independence as a constructive development might be no bad thing for them, and us, to nurture. Granted, I wouldn’t trust the Tory NeoLiberals as far as I could spit. But I’m not talking about Boris Johnson, Davis, Gove or May… But wiser heads, say just for example, like Prof Nicholas Boyle, the Cambridge Professor who wrote that “Problem with the English..” piece. There are good people down there. Let us try to work with them if we can.

      http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the-problem-with-the-english-england-doesn-t-want-to-be-just-another-member-of-a-team-1-4851882?utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

      Whether Brexit is a great success or modest success, or anywhere from dismal failure to outright catastrophe, England will exit Europe having left very few Europeans sorry to see them (and us) go. Sooner or later, there is a credible possibility that England will want to re-engage with Europe, and essentially “leaving” Scotland as a de facto “British” beachhead inside the EU, could actually be a worthwhile and pragmatic contingency for us all to consider.

      I repeat, forget the current crop of bampots like May, Johnson and even Blimp Davidson. Down the line a bit, it won’t be those kind of cretins trying to restore England’s reputation with the EU. It will be more diligent, pragmatic and logical people who already recognise that Scotland might very well be closing the curtains on the United Kingdom irrespective of whether Westminster likes it or not.

      Then the game changes completely, because Scotland is no longer just a resource and opportunity carelessly lost, but becomes an angry, Independent Scotland that feels duped and betrayed by Westminster’s treacherous double dealing. A truculent Scotland that might easily evolve into a lasting obstruction, and formal veto, against any future reconciliation and renewed integration between the EU and England.

      What’s in it for Scotland? Well, perhaps a BBC told to shove a tartan sock in its propaganda pie hole for one thing. No bad achievement by itself. But an amicable dissolution of the United Kingdom would seem a remote possibility in circumstances where Westminster resolves to be as awkward and obstructive as it can be. Strikes me we should be giving the English every encouragement to be seeing the world from our perspective – constructively!

      They might, and possibly are, recognising some inevitability about “losing” Scotland anyway, and with precious little cause for celebration. But biting the bullet, swallowing their pride, and heaven forbid, constructively assisting Scotland gain its Independence in Europe, the idea could be a clever contingency to address a future juncture; one where England badly needs a face saving intermediary between the EU proper and their humbled and repentant selves. That intermediary could be Scotland.

      Scotland’s Independence in Europe could potentially be England’s safety net or lifeline from the worst of all possible Brexits. But to secure our agreement, they would have to help us, not fight us, to make that Independence scenario a reality. The United Kingdom might dissolve itself by mutual consent… fat chance, but imagine the possibility..

      We don’t necessarily have to win that argument by the way… There is precious little scope to secure a popular majority at Westminster for dissolving the U.K., but we could potentially hammer in a mighty wedge to divide opinion south of the Border, and that would be a veritable body blow for screeching Unionism we see up here.

      Give England some genuine and significant self interest in Scotland’s remaining in Europe. Give Europe a way to be rid of rude-boy Westminster but not abandon English-EU Trade to the Americans. Give Scotland an amicable, fair minded, and constructive dissolution of the United Kingdom. But most expedient and sinister of all, give that “Dark Money” we can all of us smell, the option of hedging it’s bets on England’s Brexit by butting out of Scotland’s affairs.

      Sounds fantastic? Maybe it is. But what is the alternative version of events? Mel Gibson in an economic wasteland fighting tooth and nail for oil with his face painted blue? Seriously. What options are there?

    63. sensibledave says:

      Macart

      You wrote “The self interest of the one, willing to sacrifice the lives and welfare of the other in pursuit of their own agenda. See also under ‘greed is good’ and ‘do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law’.

      … melodramatic poppycock! Unless of course, you mean the EU?

    64. allan thomson says:

      Robert J Sutherland at 2.48

      Hi Robert

      That was indeed my point.

      If we are going to criticise our opponents for distorting evidence for effect, then we must not do it ourselves.

      That’s not just a moral stance, in this particular instance it’s also a practical necessity if we are not to alienate friends of Scottish self-determination … whether they be English folk living + voting in Scotland or valued well-wishers/ allies south of the border, such as Lynne at 3.15.

      In the wider scheme of things, I should also say that I am not as convinced as Bob Mack that our standards are always higher … we have to be willing to call out prejudice and ignorance (+ yes, sometimes hatred) among our own folk.

      Otherwise, what’s the point of our brave new Scotland.

    65. Vestas says:

      @ Ian Clark 4:22 pm :

      “Most English Remain voters will almost certainly not display the little Englander mentality of many of the Leave voters.”

      I don’t think you’re right on that. You certainly are in major metropolitan areas but even in cities which are majority non-white, non-christian its more complicated.

      For example in Leicester I heard the view of “rather have a white Pole than another Paki” a lot. That’s partly racist but also reflects the fact that most Eastern Europeans don’t stay long. Indian sub-continent immigrants do. It is mainly racist though.

      The “Asian” (Hindu/Sikh/Muslim) population of Leicester have their own racist views (they hate blacks – well carribean ones anyway) but view the Poles etc as another wave of 1970’s style racism.

      They’re not wrong either – yet to meet a Pole/Latvian or Lithuanian in Leicester who isn’t a racist. Daughter had a Lithuanian woman as a flatmate until this week – nice enough woman until she had a few drinks and someone mentioned blacks or Jews 🙁

      I also suspect that were Scotland to have the levels of immigration as England you’d find the same nasty racist/xenophobic sentiments in many/most “normal” people. I’d like to be wrong but I don’t think so.

      The tl;dr is England’s a pretty nasty place these days where the average subject (not citizen) is ill-educated, racist and xenophobic. We won’t even start on islamophobia or we’ll be here all day.

    66. Proud Cybernat says:

      Hey Allan Thomson – if you want to see hatred, prejudice and ignorance try the pages of the Mail, Express, Guardian, Scotsman etc.

      Trust me – you’ll find it difficult to find any of that bollox BTL here. And even if you do (from our occasional false flag trolls), they’re quickly called out and put in their place.

    67. sensibledave says:

      Proud Cybernat

      Yo Cybie!

      You wrote “That Scotland wants to dissolve the Union is NOT ABOUT YOU although I’m pretty sure that must come as a shock to your like because how can Scotland’s aspirations not be about YOU?”

      100% wrong Cybie!

      When last asked, Scotland did not want to dissolve the Union (that England and we English are a part of and therefore have an “interest” in). So it is about me if some “Leave” voters in Scotland believe they have the right to wreck a UK voted outcome (i.e. the UK that the SCots voted to be part of – unlike me). Why on earth should your vote in a UK parliament or referendum carry more weight than mine.

      As fully paid up member of the swivel-eyed wing of the SNP, I know I am wasting my time explaining things like democracy to you – but hey, its a quiet afternoon and I am happy to share, educate and inform – even if it goes over your head Cybie.

    68. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave: “… melodramatic poppycock! Unless of course, you mean the EU?

      I hate to say this, but you have the innate perspective of the 85%, we on the other hand are the 8.3% who often see us dragged along by the 85%, the EU membership being precisely a case in point, where the UK voted 51.6% to Leave, but Scotland voted 62% to Remain. But might nevertheless be dragged out.

      And for those that actually explore the EU, it has far more respect for its smaller members, including in its qualified majority voting where just 13 members representing just 8.35% of the total population of the EU can say “NO” to the rest of it. That’s not even including the veto which every single member state has.

      Compare that to the UK where Scotland does what the UK wants, which is mostly England with its 85% population, but Scotland, Wales and NI have NO veto, and there are NO qualified majority voting rules, just the big guy gets its way every time.

    69. It confirms what we all knew. The Brit Nats consider ‘England’ and ‘Britain’ to be one and the same thing. They don’t give a flying fork about Scotland Ireland and Wales; more fool Wales.
      They declare that they want to make ‘Britain’ great again, not the ‘UK’.
      Great news for us, terrible insult to the Unionist Brits in NI.
      The end is nigh. Little England will have its Independence Day next March. We wish them well on their journey to Planet Zircon.

    70. Proud Cybernat says:

      Hey Senseless Dave – just for you (and the missus)…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nox57hdgeAU

    71. wull2 says:

      I hope the people outwith Scotland tell their relatives in Scotland to vote YES next time to save us subsidising Scotland.

      Everybody just vote YES, and keep putting the drip drip drops in the eyes.

    72. sensibledave says:

      Vestas 4:44 pm

      You wrote “For example in Leicester I heard the view of “rather have a white Pole than another Paki” a lot. That’s partly racist but also reflects the fact that most Eastern Europeans don’t stay long. Indian sub-continent immigrants do. It is mainly racist though.

      Here we go again! Really Vestas? Is there no depth to which you will not sink? You choose to cite one unsubstantiated, unrepresentative, comment of something you say you heard someone say … and you project that as representing the views of a nation!?!?!. You are a disgrace.

      Then you wrote “The tl;dr is England’s a pretty nasty place these days where the average subject (not citizen) is ill-educated, racist and xenophobic. We won’t even start on islamophobia or we’ll be here all day.

      .. and you Vestas, in your own words, and in your own stupid, thick nativity … display the exact nastiness of an ill-educated, racist xenophobe that attempts to slur, smear and denigrate the people of a whole country.

      You are embarrassingly pathetic.

    73. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      And don’t get me started on the UK Parliament comapred to the EU Parliament, oh, too late.

      Independent Scotland (with the rUK Brexited) would have 13 MEPs compared to the current 6. Germany with a population of 83 million compared to our 5.3 million would have just 96 MEPs, restricted to a maximum by the Lisbon Treaty itself.

      Germany population ratio – more than 16 times.
      Germany MEP ratio – 7.4 times.

      Proportionately we, as a smaller member, would get more than double the representation in the EU Parliament, as the EU favours smaller states for the sake of democracy and representation.

      If the UK did the same and respected representative democracy for its member nations, Scotland should have 120 MPs, not just 59.

    74. Thepnr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Good tune and an appropriate choice for Dave and his missus.

    75. Sinky says:

      The makings of an Indy deal with UK government.

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12384/robin-mcalpine-how-much-it-will-really-cost-build-independent-scotland

      Well worth reading and buying the book when published

    76. Proud Cybernat says:

      UK ‘Democracy’ v EU Democracy:

      https://imgur.com/a/ZDdCk

    77. Clootie says:

      An interesting paper on tha “English” view of their Scottish partners.
      https://publish.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2072&context=honorstheses

    78. Luigi says:

      Scot Finlayson says:

      22 February, 2018 at 4:04 pm

      @Referendum1707

      If you put an advert on a big red bus saying,

      We send Scotland £350,000,000 a week,
      let`s fund our NHS instead,
      Let`s take back control.

      the little Englanders would be all over that like a cat over catnip,

      they would have the Union dissolved within weeks.

      Even better, we should have a big red blue Indy Bus with the following on the side of it:

      “Scotland sends £500,000,000 a week south of the border. Imagine what we could do with our own money!”

      As a joke of course, but far more accurate than the UKIP NHS effort.

      Heck – we have to do this – could Mr Soutar loan us a bus? 🙂

    79. Dr Jim says:

      The English declaration of Independence: It’s our human right to do what we want because we’re more than you

      Yes Yes the Troll is back spouting the exact same stuff as what was just spewed out of the mouths of the National Rifle Association in America *We need MORE guns* except over here in the UK of England it’s *We need MORE Brexit* trust us to wreck your lives in the right way and to hell with your human rights, ours are more important because we’re bigger than you and there are more of us

      England are quite at liberty to go down the same road as American if that’s what they want but Scotland does’nt care for what Americans are forced to put up with now that it’s too late for them to do anything about it

      Just as well we don’t allow guns in this country or all the sufferers of Britnatillocis including most of their brain dead maniacs would be shooting us

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, teacher off to school, doing the checklist:

      marked homework: check
      material for classes: check
      mk47: check
      lunch: check
      mk-285 grenades: check
      apple: check

      Off we go to work.

    81. Hamish100 says:

      Unless you’re labour Tories lib dems please don’t discuss the same issue more than once. The presiding officer won’t allow it

    82. Thepnr says:

      Apparently according to the Guardian there has been some progress in the talks between the SG and UK over the transfer of powers from the EU after we leave.

      It appears that out of the 111 areas 86 have been agreed that will come directly back to Scotland. The other 25 and no doubt the most important 25 want to be retained by Westminster but only until “a common framework could be agreed.

      Aye pull the other one!

      Mike Russell, Scotland’s Brexit minister, said the UK wants to exercise a veto over 25 major policy areas thought to cover farming, fisheries, food safety and the environment, which the UK government want to see covered by UK-wide common frameworks.

      Sturgeon said: “What is proposed would not just give the UK government oversight of this parliament and government but, in matters that are devolved to this Parliament, effectively give it powers of imposition or veto.

      https://archive.is/pnskZ

    83. Bill Hume says:

      Whatever way you look at these figures, that means a very large percentage of the English population are willing to sacrifice the populations of both Scotland and Northern Ireland to achieve a hard Brexit.

      In a way, that comforts me as I was worried about what might happen if Scotland (or NI) scuppered Brexit.

      It seems, however, that the hardliners in England would welcome Scottish independence.

    84. Calum McKay says:

      No “Scotland we love you” at the brits this year!

      Ronnie Wood did however complement “England” on all the talent this year!

      I think this is one of the struggles for unionism, the union is only one way and benefits the South East of England. Scottish unionists see this, but have difficulty admitting they have been taken for a mug.

      England as run by the current batch, mogg, mundell, johnson, davidson and fox, etc, have and will in future sell Scotland down the river at the drop of a hat.

      Trade deal with US – absolutely – cost, the decimation of Scotland’s agricultural sector, no problem Mr Trump.

      If you let others rule you, don’t be suprised if they shaft you to benefit their own!

    85. schrodingers cat says:

      cubby and other Uriah Heep fans from yesterday, enjoy

      https://twitter.com/YESNEFIFE/status/966696456060096513

    86. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Most English Remain voters will almost certainly not display the little Englander mentality of many of the Leave voters.”

      Only anecdotal I know, but: I have two English relatives (one parent Scottish) whom I am close to, well-educated (graduated in Scotland) and intelligent (one works creatively in the film industry, the other helps run a successful business), and lovers of the tawdry Orgasmatron that is Grampa Corbyn, who they strangely haven’t rumbled as being anti-EU.

      At a family occasion in 2014, we began chatting about the referendum and they were deeply shocked that my wife and I were Yessers, thought Scotland was an economic basket case and AS a fat grievance-peddling buffoon (shades of Steve Bell’s infamous cartoon).

      As I went through my repertoire of arguments/answers (thanks, Wingers all) I was regarded with the kind of contemptuous, patronising regard one might give to a monkey at a Brooke Bond tea party.

      You will only have a chance of understanding the just cause of our independence if you live here, as the number of English members in my SNP branch indicates.

    87. Rock says:

      ““Lead us, Scotland, don’t leave us!” is going to be a pretty hard sell next time.”

      It would be, if the most stupid people on earth were not in Scotland.

      With Brexit, or more likely a “snap” Brexit imminent, there is hardly 50% support for independence.

      If Nicola had not spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen – Scotland would have been on the verge of independence now.

      There is a 1% chance that Nicola the lawyer will defy Saint Theresa and hold an illegal independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Why would she and the rest of the SNP leadership want to go into exile in Belgian when they are doing fine here and at Westminster?

    88. Bob Mack says:

      @Rock,

      Your not only flogging your own dead horse.your buying it hay as well. GROUCHO MARX

    89. Andy-B says:

      O/T.

      Jeez, both STV news and BBC news in Scotland lead with Ruth Davidson’s attack on the FM at FMQ’s today, talk about media backing Ruthie has that.

      STV are just as bias as the BBC.

    90. Rock says:

      Only the most stupid people on earth would give English settlers, including holiday home owners, a vote on Scotland’s independence from England.

      Before there is a flood of pretendy pro-independence English settlers rushing to post, if you really want Scottish independence, there would be a better chance of achieving it if all English settlers were denied the vote.

      It is a proven fact that the vast majority of the English voted No.

      And it is not rocket science to forecast that the vast majority will always vote No.

      I find that completely natural, but I find it completely wrong and stupid for them to be given a vote.

      Brexit would not have won if EU nationals settled in the UK had been given the vote. In my view, it was right to deny them the vote.

    91. ephemeraldeception says:

      @Rock you may be right that Nichola took the wrong strategy but thats the past and looking forward, things will come to a head. The SNP need to show their metal or just bend over and take it. What will it be? I don’t class Nichola as a feartie.

      Scotland going ahead and Westminster(essentially representing England) trying to shut us down, Spanish style, would not go the same way as Catalonia and would bring about the end of the Union. Of that I am pretty certain.

    92. Graeme says:

      Rock says:
      22 February, 2018 at 6:38 pm

      Only the most stupid people on earth would give English settlers, including holiday home owners, a vote on Scotland’s independence from England.

      Before there is a flood of pretendy pro-independence English settlers rushing to post, if you really want Scottish independence, there would be a better chance of achieving it if all English settlers were denied the vote.

      It is a proven fact that the vast majority of the English voted No.

      And it is not rocket science to forecast that the vast majority will always vote No.

      I find that completely natural, but I find it completely wrong and stupid for them to be given a vote.

      Brexit would not have won if EU nationals settled in the UK had been given the vote. In my view, it was right to deny them the vote.
      —————————————————————–

      I’ve noticed you’re not exactly Mr popular on here Rock and considered by many a pro unionist troll and maybe you are I don’t know, but I can’t disagree with a word of that

    93. Andy-B says:

      Surely the 88% backing Brexit over the survival of the UK, must be a good thing for the independence camp.

      Hopefully they’ll turn people in Scotland away from the union, those who are thinking of voting for independence might do so now.

    94. jfngw says:

      Richard Leonard being presented with too many facts at FMQ’s, luckily he had James Kelly & Jackie Baillie available to help him with the numbers!

    95. Hamish100 says:

      Rock once in a thousand years nonesense again. Most folk live to about 80 so factually you are talking tripe. Started early tonight. Changed shifts with CA?

    96. frogesque says:

      @Thepnr 5.54

      When you read Westminster and control of the environment read ‘fracking’

      Ineos working by the back door, that’s all anyone needs to know.

    97. Undeadshuan says:

      Rock must have finished the cleaning out latrine duties at 77th hq.

      Most likely on the night shift tonight.

      Hows the wee broom cupboard rock?

    98. Greannach says:

      Allan Thomson @ 2.16PM

      Thanks, Allan. I thought it was me, that I couldn’t see a problem. You’re not the first person to get a word or two wrong in a post and I won’t be the last!

      Best wishes,

      Iain

    99. Rock says:

      Graeme,

      “I’ve noticed you’re not exactly Mr popular on here Rock and considered by many a pro unionist troll and maybe you are I don’t know, but I can’t disagree with a word of that”

      If you take closer notice, you will find that the usual suspects attack me because they can’t counter the points I make.

      Look at the comment attacking me. They never have a counter argument, just personal attacks.

      They have scared away most of the posters who have different views as them.

      I post here by the grace of the owner of this website and don’t give a damn about the “sovereign” clueless pompous armchair pundits who attack me.

      Don’t agree with me too much, or you will soon be on the receiving end!

    100. yesindyref2 says:

      there would be a better chance of achieving it if all English settlers were denied the vote

      Or just ban all previous NO voters from voting at all. That’s about equally undemocratic and uninclusive.

      “Did you vote YES in 2014? Yes, put your ballot in the ballot box, otherwise here’s the shredder.”

      Ho hum.

    101. K1 says:

      So UK gov want power of ‘veto’ over the remaining 25 policy areas in Scotland, including farming, fishing, food safety and the environment. They’ll give us 86 of our existing powers, the remaining powers are being held back from being guaranteed under the auspices of there needing to be a ‘UK-wide common framework’

      Let’s have this in plain English shall we? The major policy areas that the UK gov want are all to allow ‘trade’ deals to continue without scrutiny by the devolved governments in Scotland and Wales. (Not sure of the NI situation in this regard).

      They wish to undevolve those powers so that they can sell our land, fisheries and farming exports off to the highest bidder and so that we will have to have imported products from those countries they trade with, who do not have the safety measures in place that ensure our produce is safe. They will upend our legislation on fracking, to allow deals to be made wherein the USA can come into our ‘market’ and exploit our resources. Our clean Scottish water will be up for grabs too.

      This is how the weasel worded ‘sources’ from UK gov are framing this:

      ‘UK government sources implied that Sturgeon was misrepresenting Downing Street’s position. One source confirmed UK ministers want UK-wide agreement in some of the contested areas. But he said the UK government *was only asking the devolved administrations to accept that policies now in place for these areas under EU law remained exactly the same across the UK until a common framework could be agreed.

      *Perfidious Albion: Trust us, we’ll be true to our word

      The UK ministerial team, led by Cabinet Office minister David Lidington, is adamant they must consider the collective interests of the UK, officials said.

      Perfidious Albion: Scotland will bow to England’s demands.

      UK ministers have also warned that different policies in different parts of the UK, for example on food safety or labelling, could damage overseas trade because foreign customers would object to imported goods being made to different standards.’

      Perfidious Albion: We are lying through our teeth, we want access so that we do not have to ensure imported goods are made to the already highest standards in place through EU law.

      I fucking hate this UK gov and everything they represent. We should never grant legislative consent until we have everything we want in place, in writing, in law before we even consider whether to continue to go along with this utter sham.

      http://archive.is/TlkvZ#selection-1745.0-1753.244

      *my bold/italic

    102. Rock says:

      ephemeraldeception,

      “@Rock you may be right that Nichola took the wrong strategy but thats the past and looking forward, things will come to a head. The SNP need to show their metal or just bend over and take it. What will it be? I don’t class Nichola as a feartie.”

      Nicola has been hardly able to utter the “i” word since she was outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Saint Corbyn on the other.

      She is an establishment lawyer, and nothing like Ghandi or Mandela.

      There is a 1% chance that Nicola the lawyer will defy Saint Theresa and hold an illegal independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Why would she and the rest of the SNP leadership want to go into exile in Belgium when they are doing fine here and at Westminster?

      I will be happy to be proven wrong, but I am totally convinced that Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      She should have seized the opportunity to straight away make it perfectly clear to the people of Scotland that the only choice was to remain part of the UK or part of the EU.

      Scots like straight talk and they can see when they are being flogged a dead horse.

      Half a million of them deserted the SNP at the last election, resulting in a fall of support from 50% to 37% and a loss of 23 MPs.

      This would not have happened if the SNP had shown metal.

      (Those who don’t understand simple maths, 311+622=933, which is not far from 1000)

    103. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “Or just ban all previous NO voters from voting at all. That’s about equally undemocratic and uninclusive.”

      As usual, since you can’t counter my point, you are trying to discredit it by comparing it with a nonsensical one.

      In exactly the same way as the unionist parties try to discredit the SNP.

    104. Alba 46 says:

      As a counter to the UK governments demands that they control the remaining 25 policy area’s the Scottish government should tell the UK government that they will consider it if they devolve the Oil and Gas industry and broadcasting to Holyrood.

      Nah, didnt think so

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      comparing it with a nonsensical one

      Equally nonsensical, my little walnut.

    106. K1 says:

      What you espouse is blood and soil nationalism Rock. You have, as well as others, been taken to task many times over this. So please enough with the playing to the ‘gallery’ of one, as if it is ‘you’ personally being attacked, that’s a blatant lie.

      The trouble with your conclusion is that it involves no analysis, y’see if it ends up we ‘ban’ the English from voting in our referendum then my partner who is 60 and lived in Scotland since a baby would not be allowed to vote, since they were born in Middlesex?

      This just one tiny example of how your thinking is so…well…unthinking?

      Please do outline and explain exactly how this would work, given the historic integration of England and Scotland, given that many who live here will have been born across the border, should we also weed out those from Ireland too or Wales? But we should give to all other nationalities; French, Italian, Spanish, German et al, but no one from England?

      It’s not an argument you have, it’s just your opinion. Just to be clear about that.

      Doesn’t matter how many times you ‘re quote’ yourself saying the same thing over and over again about this. The first time you said it was flawed and as you are actually incapable of ‘arguing’ your point beyond ‘this is my only opinion’ on this, it never goes anywhere. Because you would have to outline exactly what this entails and what it would say about Scotland’s polity and this something you never address?

      So by all means keep on re stating your opinion. It doesn’t make it right Craig, it just confirms that you are not that well thought through in your analysis.

    107. K1 says:

      Let’s stick to arguing about the policies that we are at odds with and the divergence of values that has occurred between the two countries that form the UK. Let’s focus on convincing our fellow Scots, whether born here or not, of the merits of running our own affairs.

      And let’s move on from focusing on the nationalities of those who choose to make their home, raise their families and work in Scotland.

      Our government is not going to change the franchise just because it would benefit us to do so…in the short term, but it would also damage us in the long term. If they did, then I would not vote Yes next time round. Simple.

    108. carjamtic says:

      The Phantom Raspberry Blowers of Old London Town

      As the soft fruit lies rotting on the ground and at least Four Scottish Tories signed up for a hard Brexit “fuck it what’s the prob” ?

      On Indy,they should be “invited” to pick up the soft fruits,the raspberries etc.

      Wae cnuts, like these who needs enemies.

      I hope their constitutants know,far and wide….. there will be no jam tomorrow.

    109. yesindyref2 says:

      Should have been horse chestnut in view of its boring fascination with flogging dead horses.

    110. mogabee says:

      K1

      More or less the same points I was expecting answers on. Two people in this household of three voted YES in 2014, the other was just too young!

      Those two people both born in England but escaped long ago and have no care to return. One of those people trudged the streets canvassing, manning the shop, delivering leaflets, envelopes and tried real hard to engage with anyone who wanted information.

      So, which of those Rock, should be denied a vote, and how the hell do you find them?

      I dearly hope I never have to make these points again…

    111. Thepnr says:

      O/T TV license fee to increase from April 1 to £150.50, is somebody taking the piss?

    112. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 6.38

      “It is a proven fact that the vast majority of the English voted No.”

      It is not in fact a “proven fact”. It is a possibility drawn from a number of subsequent polls.

      The same polls showed that the retired persons in Scotland voted very strongly NO. A very large majority of the English in Scotland are retired. I suggest the fact is that, if there is a majority of English in Scotland who voted NO, it is because the retired English voted the same as the Scottish retired folk. We have lots of English people in our SNP here and I know many young working English folk who voted YES.

      The real reason we didn’t win was that not enough Scots voted YES.

    113. Bob Mack says:

      The research by Edinburgh University gives the answer to who voted what in the referendum

      Scots born in Scotland voted almost 53% for indy.

      Scots born in other parts of the UK voted 72% to reject indy.

      Voters from outwith the UK voted by 57 %to reject indy.

      The 72% from other parts of the UK number almost 400,000.

      There is your answer. If you want indy then exclude all voters not resident in Scotland. It is a big step.

    114. Stravaiger says:

      A few observations and musings.

      1. The SG have to try every avenue possible before holding another referendum. They must play by the rules if they are to be taken seriously by the rest of the world when we finally gain independence. Frustrating? Yes. Necessary? Also yes.

      2. IndyRef2 must be held before Brexit. If it isn’t, the SNP will alienate a lot of their core support, and the way will be clear for Westminster to deny any future referendum and start clawing back powers from Holyrood. Also the media will go in to full on UK propaganda mode for decades to come, in an effort to influence voters against the SNP. Scotland will be airbrushed out of pretty much everything.

      3. Brexit might appear to be a clusterf*ck but it’s really going exactly to plan. The plan is to prevaricate long enough for time to run out and a hard Brexit to be the result.

      4. There might or might not be a transition period. One of the reasons for the transition is to kick the can down the road and delay the effects of Brexit until after the next Holyrood elections. The Mad Mogg (TM) types however possibly view this as a side show and are more interested in crashing out ASAP.

      5. Brexit will result in the diminishing and possible eventual extinction of Holyrood. Probably by ‘death by a thousand cuts’. They will only take large scale action if the SG tries to hold an ‘illegal’ referendum after Brexit.

      6. Northern Ireland will possibly be cut adrift and effectively or actually reunified with the Republic, but only after their usefulness (DUP votes) has expired.

      7. Westminster will refuse to ‘allow’ another IndyRef under any circumstances. The SG will therefore need to be prepared to hold one anyway. If the result is a ‘Yes’, then Westminster may just decide the gig is up and accept the result. If not, the SG must unilaterally declare independence. If the result is a ‘No’, then we’re all fucked.

      8. In light of all the above, we need to get our ducks in a row NOW, and be prepared for a sair fecht, gloves off. Audentes Fortuna iuvat and the winner takes all.

      This is it, guys & gals. Crunch time!

    115. Artyhetty says:

      re;Tinto Chiel@6.18pm

      Had exact same attitude from friends & family south of the border, then, and now, not much has changed. Almost fallen out with me for not being the biggest follower and fan of Corbyn, and saying he is pro Brexit. They really are brainwashed and it is a huge worry, and it’s en masse!

      So the Andrew Neil interview, this week, calling out the tories would be seen as complete and utter BBC balance, how could it possibly be biased. We know it was all a ruse and faux calling out the tories, but sadly the bbc and Labour followers do not know that.

      My cousin recently said that the UK brexit lot don’t give a stuff about people of England, so how do we expect them to give one toss about Scotland, Wales or NI?

      In other words, all in the same boat.

      I don’t get it though, because if things were going swimmingly, that boat would only have a certain capacity, and no room for the subsidy junkies sorry, nope, oops, country, I mean north britain overboard! Collateral.

      ‘I don’t like that Alic Salmon mind’. Why not? Just cos. ffs.

      The Britnat and their dodgy pals’ daily onslaught of propaganda and lies really does work, south of the border. Ignorance is bliss eh.

      Well Scotland is on a different path, a life affirming, positive, internationalist, forward looking path. We live in the 21st century not the Victorian times! So on you go little England, if you feel that way, we really will set you free. Byeeeeee.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack: “The research by Edinburgh University

      A certain poster here is checking that £250,000 “research” out, and seems to be largely discrediting it. From what I’ve seen, I agree.

    117. Tinto Chiel says:

      “The real reason we didn’t win was that not enough Scots voted YES.”

      It would be a lot simpler if all the chanty-wrastlers/twisters/splitters/Govt. agents just accepted DMH’s observation.

      Makes next time a lot more straightforward, really.

      Up to you, PSBs.

    118. Bob Mack says:

      @Yes indy ref2,

      Yes I understand that Ailsa Henderson who compiled the report was no friend of the SNP, but I also understand that several polls in the run up to the election gave exactly the same results in terms of the percentage of Scots who were born other than in Scotland. They said it was around 70%, who intended to vote NO.

      The Daily Mail called it exactly in a poll on 14th September.

      I think that is not just coincidental

    119. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ArtyH 8.59: it is a supreme irony that some of the peripheral parts of England which have voted most strongly for Leave are the very ones which will receive diddly-squat from London post-Brexit.

      Think three parts of England which I have always found attractive: the South-West, Cumbria and Northumberland.

      The train-wreck in English public opinion has been caused by the domination of the English press by five tax-dodging billionaire anti-EU press barons.

      None of the above three paragraphs will ever be discussed on Pravdasound4, of course.

    120. Dr Jim says:

      I can only speak for the 50% of my family that is English
      and to a man woman and child every one of them is anti Scottish and always has been in all of my 69 years

      Every one of them believes we are smart alecs (Translation better educated) but with the kind of education you don’t apparently need, they say

      Every one of them believes we are too touchy (Translation, we wont be made fools of)

      My mother from a family of ten kids born and bred in Wolverhampton was practically excommunicated from the family when she married my Edinburgh father and moved to Scotland in the hope of having her kids born and educated to the same standard as her new husband but even she never got over the idea that England was the superior nation because they had a queen and just because they were, so there, and if she were alive today she’d be a NO voter

      Just because, so there!

      If you can’t educate people who don’t want to be educated you can’t argue with them
      So you’re left with two choices, walk away or destroy them
      and as most of us aren’t in the destrying of our own families business the first option seems the all round favourite choice for everybody involved

    121. Petra says:

      It looks as though the MSM has gone too far and shot itself in the foot. Manipulated many English people to such an extent they’ll be glad to see the back of us. No problem there as the feelings are mutual …. ridding ourselves of Westminster that is, not English people in general.

      Meanwhile here in Scotland the brainwashing continues. STV news had Davidson holding Court and Mundell, yes they’ve reappeared, telling us all AGAIN that there will be no power grab, such as of our environment (our water, fracking etc). No mention of him voting yesterday either to deprive Police Scotland / the Scottish Fire Service of their backdated VAT.

      That was followed by John McKay telling everyone that GCC is raising the Council Tax by 3% and made a point of highlighting that GCC is controlled by the SNP (footage of the Council Committee thrown in showing Susan Aitken beaming). He normally never mentions who controls what especially when Labour held the monopoly. Then it was over to Ponsonby who informed us all that they’ll have to raise the CT to settle the Equal Pay cases. No mention that the EP cases related to Labour’s time in office.

      So there we have it. Many Scots (and English people of course) find their blood is boiling when SNP politicians mention free tuition fees, prescriptions and so on because they reckon it’s English money that’s paying for it. And any non-politically minded people watching STV news tonight would be ranting at their TV. Ranting about the SNP treating the workers like dirt and then putting their CT up to sort out their SNP Equal Pay mess. This is what we’re up against on a daily basis.

    122. ben madigan says:

      Ottomanboi who said
      “The UKGB has always been about England. English history and culture is the ever present background theme. . . . .”

      Totally agree, I said much the same thing here https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2018/01/05/telling-westminster-whats-what/

    123. Referendum analysis after Indy 1,

      https://tinyurl.com/ycbdfgqq

      more about how the voting process was perceived by voters and non voters,

      although one poll question jumped out,

      `How did you vote in Referendum`

      50% said Yes

      37% said No

      13% declined to say,

      and then there is lots of questions on voter fraud.

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Stravaiger @ 20:58,

      That pretty much covers the situation, I think.

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 20:47,

      Likewise.

      Yet certain characters keep popping up on here to distract by harping on about old done-to-death themes. And when you scratch the surface, the same kind of personality/politics seems to keep on showing up…

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says:22 February, 2018 at 8:47 pm:

      “Rock at 6.38
      “It is a proven fact that the vast majority of the English voted No.”
      It is not in fact a “proven fact”. It is a possibility drawn from a number of subsequent polls.”

      Rock been at it again, Dave?

      Has he spouted the only one he ever got correct yet?
      You know the one – the one where he claims that the most stupid people on Earth, (or is it in the World?, live in Scotland. Anyone know if Rock resides in Scotland?

    126. ben madigan says:

      @sensible dave who said “Most think that those nations that that want to stay should stay – and those that want to leave should leave. Its that in-built respect of democracy and fair play.”

      it’s not really anything to do with any English “in-built respect of democracy and fair play” you know.
      In fact it’s not at all, you know.
      it’s all got to do with a UN declaration, which the UK signed up to

      Article 3
      Indigenous peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.http://www.un-documents.net/a61r295.htm

    127. Bobp says:

      Thepnr 8.47pm.yeah the ebc.

    128. Iain says:

      The real reason that England is so desperate to hang
      on to Scotland, is that with the national debt being some 1.8 trillion and Scottish oil alone being worth (according to Phil Hammond ) 20 trillion pounds. Is that when Scotland becomes an independent nation the pound sterling will have a value somewhat less than the Zimbabwe dollar.
      Maybe they are a little scared.
      They need not worry Scots are a generous people, and I am sure we would send food parcels.
      Post Brexit, they will need them.

    129. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact that that majority of English born people living in Scotland that actually voted supported No in the referendum.

      I would have expected that to be the case and if it hadn’t then I would have been more than slightly surprised.

      The actual figure given in the Edinburgh University study does not mention England at all, it refers to those born in rUK and is given as 72.1% This of course includes those born in NI and Wales also.

      As I said no great surprise, 59.1% of those claiming to be Protestant also voted No and 65.7% of the 70+ age group did likewise. What about women 56.6% of them voted No and guess what 64.6% of Owner-Occupiers voted No!

      Astonishingly almost 2/3rds of Scot buying a house voted No! No it’s not astonishing at all, again it is to be expected. It’s that selfish streak raising it’s head again and fearty syndrome among some. Those are the people that were targeted by project Fear along with pensioners.

      Maybe we should restrict the vote to those under 70 that are Male not protestant, live in rented accommodation and were born outside of Scotland?

      I’m pretty sure we can win then, that’d be good eh!

      Is that restrictive enough for you?

      What has happened to Civic Nationalism, you know all that inclusive stuff that Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon keep going on about? Ah it’s only really inclusive for those that fit the demographics of the typical Yes voter.

      Fucking bullshit, a Scotland that has to rely in bending the rules for a vote to ensure they win by excluding anybody with a right to be here is not for me. The SNP got it right when they set the criteria for a vote in my eyes.

      The only difference I would make for a next time is to set a minimum term of residency as that makes sense, excluding anyone because of any other reason is “cherry picking”.

      That’s the Tories game, not mine, here’s the link to a presentation of that research.

      http://centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Scottish%20Referendum%20Study%2027%20March%202015.pdf

    130. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Those of you who don’t do The Twitter might like to know that someone just described Richard Leonard’s bouncy performance style as that of ‘a one-legged tightrope-walker’.

      🙂

    131. ben madigan says:

      @ Stravaiger who said “3. Brexit might appear to be a clusterf*ck but it’s really going exactly to plan. The plan is to prevaricate long enough for time to run out and a hard Brexit to be the result.”

      i’d like to direct attention to 2 pieces of evidence that support Stravaiger’s point of view

      1) according to the new statesman No Deal is more likely than it looks! https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/02/there-s-only-one-way-theresa-may-can-meet-brexit-ultras-demands-no-deal

      2) The Commission has taken note of the decision by the United Kingdom (UK) Government that it does not want the future relations with the Union to be based on the EU single aviation market. The outcome of the withdrawal negotiations on the future relations will determine the nature of the future EU/UK aviation relations. It is up to market operators to decide on their business operations in the light of their anticipation of what the new situation will be, and in so doing it is advisable that due consideration be given to the eventuality of a ‘no deal’ scenario as a possible outcome of the ongoing process.

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2017-006508&language=EN

    132. Capella says:

      I can only read the first paragraph of that Alex Massie article, as it’s behind The Times paywall.
      But even one paragraph shows that Massie, in his effort to be literary, compares the Brexiteers to some F. Scott Fitzgerald characters:

      they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made

      In fact, The Tory Party was led into BREXIT by Bullingdon Boys, who smash things up then walk away to their wealthy retreats leaving other people to clean up after them.

      These are not fictional characters in American novels but actual present day characters who run the UK government – thanks to people like Alex Massie.

    133. Bob Mack says:

      @the PNR,

      Why the obfuscation about males,females,religion etc ?

      I simply stated a fact. It’s nothing to do with me, but merely an observation, so get off my case.

      You can hold your open policy in one hand and your newspaper headline stating “Beat Again” in the other if that serves you well. Facts are simply that. Deal with it.

    134. Petra says:

      @ Stavaiger at 8:58pm …….”If the result is a “Yes”, Westminster may just decide the gig is up and accept the result.”

      Spot on Stavaiger in relation to your post overall.

      As to the above quote at number 7. The closer the call the less chance we’ll have of them deciding the gig is up, imo. I know 51% would / should do it, in line with the EU result, but I reckon we’ll have to get 55% plus to make an impact.

    135. Dr Jim says:

      @Ben Madigan

      That’s because when all else fails they can blame the Baad EU for not being nice then blame them for the border they fully intended to have in NI all along

      The Daily Mail and the rest will front page it all as the rotten Johnny Foreigner story and we told you all along Frogs and Jerries and Iteyes were Baad all the time so lets show them who’s best and beat them all at football coz that’s what brings a Nation together, well that and war

    136. Petra says:

      For anyone who’s interested just a reminder that Alex Salmond’s programme is on again at 11:30pm.

    137. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      I simply stated FACTS as well Bob. What’s your problem with that?

    138. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Thepnr: “…minimum term of residency…”

      That would be my only insistence, too. At the very most, 16 years by the day before the referendum.

    139. Morgatron says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 9.58pm
      Just pished myself at that.
      When i sat down to watch FMQs tonight , i thought the clown looked like he was on an invisable pogo stick!

    140. Ian Clark says:

      @vestas at 4.44 p.m.

      I believe you when you talk about the degree of racism displayed by the groups you mentioned (and I have no illusions about Scotland being immune to racism). But does this mean that 50% or more of English Remain voters would believe and act similarly? I don’t know. Certainly the Remain voting relatives I met in Southampton two weeks ago did not express any racist views. I hope you’re wrong, since it’s a depressing picture you paint.

      Be that as it may, my little Englander comment was meant to relate to one particular strand of thinking within the Leave group. I refer to the attitude towards the peoples of the other three nations in the UK. Least offensively it could be described as patronising and most offensively as racist. Perhaps though the dominant characteristic is indifference. [I am not of course suggesting that all English Leavers can be so categorised. Left wing Leavers for example are not so easily pigeonholed.]

      I believe most English Remain voters are not patronising, indifferent or racist towards the other UK nationalities. [That does not exclude the possibility that a large percentage of them are exactly that.] Any anecdotal evidence I may give about positive attitudes towards the Scots, Irish and Welsh by English Remainers is, rightly, not going to provide adequate evidence here. And I don’t know of any polls that have been conducted which have tried to quantify such attitudes.

      PS I had to look up tl;dr, but I couldn’t do it with this response!

      @Tinto Chiel at 6.18 p.m.

      Regarding little Englander mentality, English relatives and anecdotal evidence, see my response to vestas (above).

      More importantly though, my original post at 4.22 p.m. was primarily intended to raise the idea that even if most English Remain voters are not indifferent etc.towards us, many of them – like the 88% of Leave voters – might abandon the Union if it suited them. I don’t know how the figures would pan out, but I suspect they wouldn’t be reassuring for unitary statists. It will indeed be hard for them to sell a solidarity with our English brethren line next time.

    141. Bob Mack says:

      If 4000 of us moved to the Falkland Islands (pop, 3400 )for a year,we could outvote them and demand to go back to Argentina whether they liked it or not

      Quite a thought isn’t it ?

    142. ronnie anderson says:

      Question Time Bbc don’t do advertising They just put big Yella machinery JCB on display .

    143. Juan says:

      Looks like Labour could scupper “Brexit” by throwing a Customs Uniion spanner in the works. Will this nullify our holding a new IndyRef now that SNP have diluted the 62% Scottish Remain vote, to keeping us in the EU trading block?

      A Customs Union solves the Irish border question. The question is would an agreement on a Customs Union end Scotland’s desire/need for another IndyRef? Particularly because SNP have diluted the 62% Scottish REMAIN vote by negotiating for remaining in the single market. Will most Scots know the difference between the three positions and will they care enough to do something about it?

    144. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      The problem with your analogy there is that you are not comparing apples with apples. Less than 10% of Scottish residents eligible to vote were born in the rUK. That’s the reality.

      If the population of the Falklands were to increase by a similar number 10% of even Argentinian born then I doubt that the extra 340 would make much difference as to whether they went back to Argentina or not.

      One last point, all this talk of the English Scot voting No by 70% to 30% what we don’t know is how many never voted. I know personally English people living here that I worked with in Methil who though entitled to a vote said they wouldn’t vote as it wasn’t a matter for them.

      I’d be reasonably confident that many others felt the same, if that’s right then we really have no idea of the number of English living in Scotland that actually voted No as non voters haven’t been included in these figures.

      If you have no confidence that Scotland voting under the same terms as that last time cannot reach a majority of 50% then what’s the point?

      Either 50% of those living in Scotland including those born in other parts of the UK will vote Yes or they won’t. We can only try our best to make that happen, as you said in your reply to my post. Deal with it.

    145. Bob Mack says:

      @the PNR,

      You are deluding yourself when you cite personal experience as a gauge for the actions of over 400,000 people my friend.

      Stats show exactly the opposite to your experience,and indeed make it very clear that 70% of those who originated from other parts of the UK voted NO.

      You seem to take personal umbrage when that is cited,Why is that?

    146. heedtracker says:

      These are not fictional characters in American novels but actual present day characters who run the UK government – thanks to people like Alex Massie.”

      Aye but why did so many working class or that ghastly classification, the under class, vote Leave too?

      Alex Massie is merely another toryboy and he’s not exactly got his finger on any pulse beyond Morningside.

      Summer 2014 EU elections, you could tune in to the already hysterical BBC r4 politics shows as toryboy britnats like Jim Naughty desperately touted UKIPers in Scotland.

      When UKIPers did win, Naughty in particular was hysterical with excitement, over a nutter like Coburn too. Coburn did really well considering…UKIPers, in Scotland, what does that tell you, explained orgasmic with tory beeb joy Naughty.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_(European_Parliament_constituency)

    147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 21:58:

      What has happened to Civic Nationalism, you know all that inclusive stuff that Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon keep going on about? Ah it’s only really inclusive for those that fit the demographics of the typical Yes voter.

      […] a Scotland that has to rely in bending the rules for a vote to ensure they win by excluding anybody with a right to be here is not for me.

      My view also.

      All these repeated whinging spats to “decide” =roll eyes= who shouldn’t get to vote only succeeds in convincing doubters that we have to resort to skewing the game because we have no confidence in winning on the merits of our case.

      I do have confidence. I don’t need any special pleading. On the contrary, just a secure registration process that prevents any gerrymandering.

    148. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      As I’ve said twice now already no one disputes that of those English born residents of Scotland that actually voted 70% of them voted No. Doesn’t say how many never voted though does it?

      You feel that I’ve taken umbrage hahaha. That’s funny because I thought it was you who had taken umbrage at English people resident in Scotland having a vote. I believe that as they live here they are as entitled to a vote to determine their future as well as Scotland’s. They live here too or have you missed that?

      It was you that brought up restricting certain residents of Scotland due to their demographics in order to ensure a Yes vote. I merely expanded on that to exclude not just English born but those that by a wide margin also are reported to have voted No. Would you exclude any other groups or restrict the vote to those English born?

      Why should you get to express an opinion as to who can and can’t vote in the next referendum yet take umbrage if I were to do the same. Thankfully you as far as I know are not part of the Scottish Government who will decide the franchise for the next vote. Got to laugh at the comments that talk of “little englanders” it would seem we have more of our fair share of “little scotlanders” too.

      If you feel the election procedure needs changing then make sure you let the Scottish Government know here as I have done, better by quick, consultation closes 12 March.

      https://consult.gov.scot/elections/electoral-reform/consultation/

    149. Bob Mack says:

      Imagine a site where contributors constantly whinge about everything being against them. Imagine these same contributors regularly stating that every mechanism of State is against them. They are adamant that Westminster is loading the deck against them on a daily basis.

      Now,we state a case that if Scotland had a referendum for Scots only born in this country, then that would seem pretty reasonable.The results from 2014 indicate we would have won on that basis. Not so for the people who like to play fair.

      Whilst every mechanism of State is playing dirty we have to play fair. Well, you will lose and Scotland could well lose its freedom for decades.
      However, you can console yourselves that as the NO announcement is made next time, you have the comfort of knowing you played by the rules your opponent ignored.

      Badge of honour on its way, with a citation from Westminster for being so fair.

    150. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      You appear to have no faith nor courage.

      The target is 50% of Scottish residents to vote Yes for Independence and that’s has to be our goal without restrictions.

    151. Bob Mack says:

      @the PNR,

      Oh I have plenty if faith,and I have more than enough courage.
      Difference between us is I like to win. Second prize in this game is enduring and possibly permanent. You ? I guess not so much. Hallmarks of a gallant lose.

      Bed calls

    152. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      Plenty of faith and courage then but without the belief than we can get over the line without removing the right of English born residents of Scotland to vote in another referendum?

      I have a bit more faith in that we can. Goodnight.

    153. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 00:45,

      Well, I don’t know who “we” are, but state away and bore the bejasus out of us if you insist. But it won’t make a blind bit of difference as to the rules that will apply, no matter how often you or anyone else decides to have yet another moan about it.

      Seriously, it might be worth a debate if there was any decision to be affected by doing so. But there ain’t, so waste your time and energy pointlessly if you insist. (But ideally somewhere else.)

      It makes you look just a teensy bit exclusionary as well. Not a good look to those you wish to reject but who will, really will, have a vote.

      This campaign should be about “hearts and minds” where garnering every possible available vote matters, not playground antics about who’s (not) getting to be in your team.

    154. Kangaroo says:

      Re: indyref2 voting franchise.

      You might not like people who do not agree with your opinion having a vote. However we all have to live somewhere and some of us are lucky enough to have a choice in the matter. As much as it would be nice to exclude those you don’t agree with it is simply not the right thing to do.

      Re: D Davis and Mad Max
      This is a gift from the gods.
      Use it everywhere.
      Even previous No voters understand the imagery.
      The new young voters will have seen Fury Road, so they too will ‘Get It’
      Keep repeating it whenever you get a chance, make it stick.

      Brexit == A Mad Max future.

    155. Highland Wifie says:

      @Clootie 5.22
      Thanks for posting link to thesis on Scottish Highland soldiers. I thought it would be of interest to my son as this is his specialist area and then to my surprise I found that my son’s book is listed in the bibliography!
      Interesting read too. Thanks again.

    156. artyhetty says:

      For those discussing voting, residency and country of origin, why not read and comment on the ScotGov consultation on electoral reform. You have until March 12th.
      Here is the link. Now stop arguing. 🙂

      https://consult.gov.scot/elections/electoral-reform/

    157. artyhetty says:

      For those discussing voting, residency and country of origin, why not read and comment on the ScotGov consultation on electoral reform. You have until March 12th.

      Here is the link. Now stop arguing. 🙂

      https://consult.gov.scot/elections/electoral-reform/

    158. artyhetty says:

      Oops, didn’t mean to click twice re my comment. Too late.

      Let’s see what Britnat world brings us tomorrow. Sometimes wake up, all ok, then reality hits, oh frick, brexit disaster.

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      I don’t actually neccessarily accept that “several polls in the run up to the election gave exactly the same results in terms of the percentage of Scots who were born other than in Scotland …”

      I’d want links to the data tables.

      This meme spread after the Indy Ref, and that Edinburgh survey is quoted a lot. It’s the same one that says that the VOW had no effect, no effect at all. Do you believe that, because I don’t. In fact Ashcroft immediately after the result disproves it completely, 25% of the NO voters voted for more powers.

      And now tonight the usual suspect has dropped its keks and some people are sniffing around it, while it walks off with a smile on its unionist face.

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      There were 235,565 enrolments at higher education institutions in Scotland in 2015/16. A total of 184,630 students came from the UK, while EU students totalled 20,945. 94% of first year undergraduates from Scotland chose to study north of the border.

      I think this “English” thing is arse about face, and it should be length and permanence of residency that’s looked at, whether English, Welsh, NI, or EU or overseas.

      On the other hand Scotland wants and needs students from anywhere to get a degree and stay in Scotland afterwards and contribute to our economy with higher paid jobs and taxes, in life sciences, space research, whatever. From this point of view franchising them for elections is part of making them welcome, including them.

      But they’re here on a 4 year course, or with first year exemption 3 year. Seems to me making residency at 2 years gives time for them to absorb Scotland and our values, weaning them off the attitudes and misinformation of the DM and DT and perhaps the BBC as well.

      That’s more than half of those students from outside Scotland taking account of dropouts that wouldn’t be on the register with a 2 year requirement, and that’s more than 100,000 taken off.

      In addition work is mobile, and plenty of Scots go south for a year or two, and plenty from the rUK come to Scotland for a year or two. No idea of the figures and can’t be bothered looking again at the nett migration figures which give some idea of these movements.

      Note that opinion polls don’t ask questions about length of residency in Scotland, many (most) of the longer term English I met were YES voters, and I meet a lot in my travels, but I spent Ref day evening in Dundee (I live in a 75% NO voting town), and after the pubs including of course Mennies) off to the Students Union. Those students clapping and cheering the NO results seemed to me to be – mostly English (apart from one drunk Indy enthusiast at our table). I guess they had the vote, in more ways than one.

    161. Dr Jim says:

      Remember Scotlands world famous food and drink industry, yeah that one I’ve been banging on about for two years with the supermarket GB labelling everywhere you look. well that’s all you’re going to be doing, remembering, if Gove gets his way

      Michael Goves new proposal is there’s to be no Scottish food and drink industry, everything will be the British food and drink industry, think about what that means

      Michael Russell has said an emphatic NO to this understandably
      but this has definitely been planned for a long time by the UK since Cameron called in the supermarkets in 2014 when they issued the threats about more expensive food if we voted Yes to Independence

      They’re trying to put Scotland out of business just like they’ve done with every previous country they took over then stole their business and trade for themselves

    162. Breeks says:

      One problem with preventing English immigrants having a vote in an independence referendum is the issue of securing international recognition for the result.

      My instincts are that we cannot deny these people who are committed to living here their vote, even where that vote is anecdotally a NO vote. But, in equal measure, when I was in England, I never once felt I was anything other than a visitor in somebody else’s country, and had they chosen to deny me a vote in an election, especially an election specific to England’s interests, then I would have considered this their prerogative.

      I want Scotland to win and be free of this Union, but we need to encourage the majority to come with us, not ostracise and alienate the English by the very literal definition of prejudice. Frankly, that sails mighty close to the darkly unstable xenophobia which inflamed and unhinged England’s Brexit vote.

      The elephant in the room however is not the threat of any English settlers’ understandable affinity for remaining tied to England, but the complete absence of any pro Independence narrative and constructive dialogue which seeks to engage with Unionist sympathies and persuade / convert them into Independence supporters.

      I have no idea what the SNP is thinking. I have no idea if the SNP has a plan that is currently being suppressed by the media, or whether the SNP’s plan is already stillborn, or whether the SNP has indeed an unstoppable strategy about to be unleashed. I also resent the accusation that my lack of empathy with thIs elusive SNP strategy is my failing, and not theirs. Dear God, I’ve asked enough questions haven’t I? Am I meant to be satisfied with access to the Single Market??? Sorry. My “red lines” are back up the road a wee bit. I still haven’t given up on my European citizenship just yet.

      We accuse the Tories of hypocrisy and sophistry when they have no Brexit appraisals, then do have Brexit appraisals, then do have Brexit appraisals they refuse to tell us about. Mundell is a liar and a sleazeball who can’t be trusted to defend Scotland. Booo! Hiss! The Tories are guilty as charged in every reprehensible respect. But cast the same cynical eye over Scottish Independence, and forgive me pointing it out, but it is the SNP being inarticulate and non-forthcoming about the progressive arguments for Independence. Let us ignore that certain degree of hypocrisy from ourselves, I am also perplexed how we are going to convert anyone from No to YES when we don’t even make the constructive effort to campaign for the idea proactively.

      Westminster’s campaigning in both in its pro and anti Brexit narratives, was pitifully ill informed, grossly incompetent and unenlightened, resulting in an ugly Brexit result secured before any of the population knew what the ramifications of a Brexit result would actually be. That is grossly incompetent government. Yet here in Scotland, we steal ourselves to believe we have a much smarter and switched on professional Scottish Government, which for some unfathomable reason thinks Independence can be revealed at an opening ceremony after Westminster’s incompetence has wrecked both Unions with Scotland and Europe all by themselves.

      Surely to goodness the SNP has to recognise the subtleties of their campaign of stoic silence are being lost on Scotland’s undecided voters, and by not campaigning constructively for Independence, the public mood come Referendum Day will be as complacent, stagnant and moribund as it was at the 2017 General Election.

      It isn’t the SNP’s lack of commitment that troubles me. Well actually, when it comes to staying in the EU and Scottish Sovereignty it very much is the SNP’s lack of commitment which troubles me. But what further troubles me is the SNP’s apparent inability to exploit and capitalise on the litany of failures and breathtaking incompetence of Westminster over Europe. How bad do they have to be before we can draw out some advantage???

      It seems we have conceded Brexit is going to happen and our sovereign democratic majority be ignored. It seems we have conceded we are losing our EU citizenship without a fight. It seems we have conceded EU membership in lieu of a mythical soft Brexit for Scotland. It seems we have conceded our place in Brexit negotiations, although we did manage to frown and say “pft “ with feeling.

      Pray, please enlighten this confused and angry wee Independence supporter, and explain why the Hell we have ostensibly conceded these impregnable definitive and absolute, constitutional bastions one after another, even before we have committed ourselves to the ultimate constitutional battle?

      These are the issues keeping me awake at night. Not whether Ruth Davidson is digging up mines in Afghanistan or planting them. Not whether the BBC is rotten, I know it is. Not whether Tories tell lies, I know they do. Not whether “whatshisface” is the best Labour Leader. I couldn’t give less of a shit. This is ALL trivial horse shit which might demean and ridicule the Unionists, but it does nothing to promote a positive and constructive case for Scotland’s sovereign Independence and rightful place as a sovereign Nation in the European Union.

      I don’t want Scotland biting its lip, in a sulk and jealous of the Brexit deal which Northern Ireland got. I want my fecking Country free of its subservience to Westminster and walked all over by the over privileged elites of the UK Establishment. I want Scotland to stand shoulder to shoulder as an equal beside Germany, France, Denmark, Italy, Poland and all the other “proper” countries.

      We’re STILL waiting to see the Brexit deal??? Why? Do we have plans to exploit that National slap in the face more successfully than the unconstitutional subjugation of Scotland’s disputable democratically expressed popular sovereignty of 2016? Or is the plan just to have a bit of a mump about it, and fall into line behind our superiors at Westminster?

    163. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      2 years? Needs to be longer than that. Those students will be drawn to stay here by a good job or a relationship more than a vote, anyway.

    164. Kangaroo says:

      Dr Jim @ 5:50am
      “Michael Gove is trying to replace the Scottish Brand with British”

      Why on earth would you replace a world renowned brand name with one that is universally scorned?

      Buy British == Buy shit.
      Buy German, Japanese == Buy Reliability
      Because of Scotch whisky, buying Scottish is associated with Buy Quality

    165. Robert Louis says:

      Meanwhile, in the REAL world, a referendum really IS coming..

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16042295.SNP_s_long_awaited_Growth_Report_containing_new_case_for_independent_Scotland_to_be_revealed_in_March/

      Have to say though, there’s an awful lot of wilful divisive sh**e in some of the post above. Don’t fall for it.

    166. Capella says:

      @ Heedtracker – why did the working class vote LEAVE?
      Because, IMO, they were persuaded by the media that posh toffs such as as Boris Johnston and Jacob Rees Mogg are the right and proper people to make decisions on behalf of us all.

      As you point out, Beeb gimps push the policies of The City, and financiers such as Mr Theresa May benefit.

      Then they demonise immigrants and, like a pack of beagles, their media retainers go barking furiously at the wrong target.

      A tried and tested formula.

    167. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      Good morning,I see in my absence you have been made the site monitor. Who exactly are you to tell anyone not to come to Wings?

      Hypocrite. You espouse values of inclusiveness but want me to go somewhere else. Live by your own dictates buddy .serve you better

    168. Ken500 says:

      70% of 10% who voted. 15% did not vote. 85%? Turnout.

      10% of pop. Or 10% of electorate?

      10% of pop. How many kids. 1/3? = 6% Less those who did not vote = 4.5% 1/3 voted YES. = 3 percent. Not enough to swing the outcome. Put in a residential qualification. Even less.

      Fifty three percent of others voted NO. Those are the ones needing persuading. The next Indy Ref can be won.

      Westminster is taking £Billions from Scotland. Illegal wars, Trident, tax evasion, financial fraud.
      Borrowing £100Billion more. £10Billion pro rata. Scotland exports £10Billion more pro rata. Raises £10Billion more in taxes pro rata. Yet ends up poorer. £20Billion.

      Westminster is trying to keep a veto over any powers. Brexit will damage the Scottish economy. The Tories/Westminster could not make a bigger mess. More people will vote for Independence. Scotland will be more equal, prosoerous and happy. Independent within the EU.

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain says: 22 February, 2018 at 9:53 pm:

      “Maybe they are a little scared.”

      Aye! And maybe they are much more likely to be bloody well terrified.

      The Kingdom of Scotland has been subsidising the three country Kingdom of England people even before the Treaty of Union.

      Here’s a Wings article that shows this is a fact:-

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/

      This subsidising was done by the Kingdom of England by the implementation of, “The English Navigation Acts”, before there even was a Treaty of Union “:-

      https://historyplex.com/navigation-acts-purpose-summary-significance

      Note that this article is a total propaganda exercise and the reader is reminded that the use of term used to describe the acts make heavy use of the entirely wrong terms when referring to the parts of Britain as they were in the period of history when these acts were in force. the acts cover the period from 1651 to 1854.

      Thus between 1651 and 1707 there was no unified United Kingdom which is why Westminster needed to force the Treaty of Union of 1707.

      Not only that but the article ignores the fact that the Rule of Law in Scotland from 1320 onwards is that the people of the Kingdom of Scotland are legally sovereign and the Rule of Law in The Kingdom of England before 1688 was the Divine Right of Kings and from 1688 onwards is that only the Kingdom of England became, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, and that difference is mirrored in Article of Union No.19 of the Treaty of Union that states the two different legal system must remain independent in perpetuity.

      So the reader must be aware terms such as, “Great Britain”, is a geographic term that describes the largest island in the British Isles that, in 1651, contained four countries in two independent Kingdoms yet the article uses Great Britain when they obviously mean the Kingdom of England that in 1651 included both Wales and all Ireland but not Scotland. So please read the article with the thought in mind it is written as a propaganda exercise and the truth is that the Kingdom of England before 1707 were applying the English Navigation Acts to Scotland.

      The effects of this are easy to work out. It meant that Scotland could not trade with the English Colonies unless by use of the Kingdom of England Mercantile Marine. The Mercantile Marine were not the Kingdom of England merchant navy but were private English Merchants who crewed the ships that traded between the colonies and everyone else in Europe including Scotland.

      That meant these merchants could not only dictate the prices they paid for the goods they bought in Europe to take to the English Colonies and in the colonies could dictate the prices the colonists paid for the goods – and of course the same with the cargos they bough in the colonies and the prices they demanded from those in Europe and that included in Scotland.

      The resultant wars this caused between the English Kingdom and countries throughout Europe left the English Parliament with massive National debts and it was the reason that the English undercover agent, London Scot William Paterson, was in Edinburgh setting up the disastrous Darien Expedition in order to bankrupt, (not Scotland), the rich Scottish landowners who were also the Scots parliamentarians. BTW: the English Navigation Acts led to the American War of Independence as well as the Treaty of Union.

      That is the fake history that English and Scottish schools have been teaching in schools and brainwashing us all ever since and the main parts of that brainwashing has always been the use of the wrong terms to describe exactly what comprised the independent Kingdoms and then the so called United Kingdom that never has worked as an actual United Kingdom but has always been what is actually the continued parliament of England that has never been elected as such since 1707.

      I wonder just how many of the general public have never heard of the English Navigation Acts much less given then a second thought.

    170. Ken500 says:

      The accusations over Mark McDonald are just ridiculous.. There is no one less of a sexual predator. Just nonsense. More naive and innocent, Helps people out and does lots for additional needs.

      It is too ridiculous for words.

    171. Bob Mack says:

      @ken 500,

      Yes Ken, but we have to play by the rules now. No doubt if the media find him guilty we have to accept that.smiles.

    172. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland is important to the British state because it constitutes approx 1/3 of UKGBNI territory. The loss of such a significant amount of land and associated territorial waters would entail a loss of international ‘face’. The régime of a post-Brexit UK is likely to be neurotically, assertively gung-ho and jingoistic. Scots throwing spanners into the machinery may not in practice be so easily accommodated by the mainstream Mail and Express informed public opinion.
      That, however, should not deter us from bringing the Scoto-English political ‘Union’ to a decisive end.

    173. Macart says:

      England voted for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%.
      Wales also voted for Brexit, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%.
      Scotland backed Remain by 62% to 38%
      Northern Ireland 55.8% voted Remain and 44.2% Leave.

      Mmmm… So two for and two against. How about partners and signatories to the treaty of union? No, that would be 1 – 1. Wait. What? So why is anyone being dragged anywhere against their wishes?

      Seriously though, I know that’s not how referendums work. But it does start drawing your attention toward something. Something that runs through a ballot of ANY kind in the current UK set up. The treaty party/nation partner with the greatest numbers can and will carry the day in any ballot. The smaller partners? Your ballot is a lottery as to whether your nation’s vote agrees with the majority of the larger entity. If it doesn’t? Then you’ve wasted a perfectly good walk to your local polling station. The democratic deficit at the heart of our ‘union of equals’.

      Firstly, as unpalatable as it is for some to read, the majority of that 53.4% leave vote (according to that study) are happy to sacrifice both the GFA and the existing devolution settlement. Remember that is the leave voting electorate only. The majority of the majority, yet still a sizeable chunk of anyone’s electorate by any means. I wonder though, how many of the remain camp in England still see this as a UK vote? The thing is. Was it? Should it have occurred at all given the effect it would have on standing constitutional agreements within the union?

      Second unpalatable point? An EU referendum, regardless of whether the Tories promised the electorate of the UK or not, should NEVER have been allowed to come to pass. It constitutionally flew in the face of some fairly hefty existing agreements with other members of the UK. A Brexit result was ALWAYS going to end in constitutional crisis and endangerment for the interests of members’ populations.

      Quite rightly, of the scenarios in question within that study, Northern Ireland and the threat to the GFA takes centre stage. The thought of hard borders and a possible return to direct Westminster rule, not to mention the economic catastrophe waiting to happen, and the breaking of a hard won peace agreement against the wishes of populations north and south, must be unbearable.

      From Scotgov’s point of view, the situation economically is equally stark and the constitutional one no less black and white. HMG broke their word. It’s that simple. The pledge of 2014 was that only by voting no could Scotland guarantee continued membership of the EU. It was a cornerstone of the HMG/Better Together campaign. There was no maybe. There was no caveat of EU referendums. The assurance was pretty straight forward. That was the vision of the UK going forward presented to the Scottish electorate. Also on that note? The act of repatriating powers has become somewhat of a sticking point in the ongoing Brexit Bill negotiations and involves the input of all the devolved legislatures and their respective devolution settlements.

      So, a UK wide vote… A vote which the legislatures weren’t really allowed the option of opting out of and which has threatened longstanding, existing settlements within the ‘union’. Given the lack of thought to the effect this would have on the other partners within the current UK?

      Sounds a bit hollow about now.

    174. galamcennalath says:

      TMay’s Chequers talks …

      http://archive.is/ZiWNt

      The 11-member Brexit cabinet committee was said by those at the Chequers meeting to have endorsed a proposal dubbed “Canada plus plus plus” by David Davis, the Brexit secretary.

      … and so, as predicted everywhere, they have come out of the room agreed upon a plan which the EU has always said is a non starter. It all looks like they are just treading water. But why do they insist of wasting time?

    175. As has been pointed out the British nationalists won’t be able to use the ploy again that we are equal partners in this damnable union or that we are loved by our southern neighbours or that we can lead the UK.

      But we can be sure the will use the threat to the economy, pensions and the loss of jobs and industry to frighten people.

      What we are seeing on the Mark McDonald case is trial by media, now I don’t and have never met him and don’t know whether the accusations made against him are true or not.

      But we can see the comparison as to how he’s being treated by the media to how Hugh Gaffney is being treated, hardly the same level coverage in the media.
      And the shadow Scottish secretary Lesley Laird having stated it is none of the public’s business as to how Labour disciplines an MP who made racist and homophobic comments and that it is a personal matter.

    176. Ken500 says:

      The Press are not so innocent. A bunch of criminals. Yet they make ridiculous accusations about others. A bunch of lying hypocrites. Some people should get a grip.

    177. Ian Foulds says:

      Stinky
      22 February, 2018 at 5:12 pm
      “The makings of an Indy deal with UK government.

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12384/robin-mcalpine-how-much-it-will-really-cost-build-independent-scotland

      Well worth reading and buying the book when published”

      Thanks for this which I have now read. Luckily, I am a simple man and just want political independence.

      It appears our Country is the only one in the World that needs financial analyses and comment by those who know about these things and those who think they know about these things to determine whether we should/can be Independent.

      If one has to look at money, my simplistic take is the Micawber principle and I believe we already achieve a positive between earnings and expenditure without even contemplating what we can do under full control of all the mechanisms and potential in the future.

      Just to be clear, I do like the article and it’s potential – no doubt to be ironed out in due course.

      What I detest are the naysayers (albeit the might call themselves realists – albeit negative ones) who continually run us down. May I suggest they emigrate or move south of the border.

    178. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian Foulds,

      Better watch that last sentence Ian or the PNR and Mr Robert J Sutherland will be after you

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Foulds
      I’ve read that article, and it should say at the start that it’s assuming no share of the assets, and therefore no share of the debt. The MSM headline will be simple: “Cost of Independence for Scotland £25 billion”, and they’ll ignore the rest. And all the NO voters and undecided will see is “£25 billion, where’s that coming from?”.

      Seeing the wood from the trees, always a problem.

    180. Stravaiger says:

      @galamcennalach

      “But why do they insist of wasting time?”

      Easy. They are killing time until it’s too late to do anything but crash out in the hardest of hard Brexits. Then it’s a done deal, too late to do anything about it.

    181. Sinky says:

      Peter McCulloch says @ 9.43 As in all things British, there is one law for the establishment and another for the rest of us.

      This applies to Electoral Commission’s treatment of Tory and Lib Dem obvious breaches of the expenses regulations or the press and broadcaster’s treatment of SNP MPs such as Michelle Thomson compared to kid gloves treatment of Gaffney etc.

      Even the so called alternative publications such as Private Eye monstered many of the 56 SNP MPs in 2015 but have yet to feature any of the recent Tory intake who have skeletons in their cupboards.

    182. galamcennalath says:

      Stravaiger says:

      They are killing time until it’s too late to do anything but crash out in the hardest of hard Brexits.

      That’s the only explanation which fits.

      I don’t believe for a minute they think a cherry picked solution will happen.

      I do believe as soon as they become realistic that could lead to a Norway solution, which they want to avoid.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t post on commonspace, but in answer to JSW on cAline’s article there’s this from the FT in 2015:

      For the Danes, the issue is the opposite of this: they have sold DKK (which they can print as much as they want) and bought EUR, thus adding to its reserves.

      This isn’t neccessarily a good thing by the way, but it does make his repudiation of McAlpine’s BoE / SCB £10 billion swap nonsense, basically. While at the same time supporting Isembard’s point.

      https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2015/01/30/2106492/is-the-dkk-the-new-chf/

    184. @Ian Foulds

      The Micawber principle of balancing the books is a sound principle for us ordinary citizens,

      but is redundant when you have the ability to produce money out of thin air (fiat money) which a central bank (Bank of England) can and does do,

      a quick video (30sec) about Gov debt,

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwKZVPYssOg

    185. @Sinky
      23 February, 2018 at 10:14 am

      It’s true what you say about there being one law for the British establishment and another law for the rest of us.

      Unfortunately as long as we remain in this union, the SNP and its politicians are always going to be monstered for
      any perceived infraction.

      While those of the British establishment can get away with murder.

    186. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 2.18

      “25% of the NO voters voted for more powers.”
      Exactly. That was what they would say, wouldn’t they. They had no intention of doing anything else than vote NO but they had to find some respectable way of excusing themselves to braver people.

    187. Ottomanboi says:

      These two Chatham House articles are useful.
      https://www.chathamhouse.org/media/comment/view/186589
      https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/15802
      The first concerned with the ‘rUK’s’ international loss of face and the second to be read in the context of the British state quitting the EU. Federalism is now even less likely.

    188. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2

      You wrote “….where the UK voted 51.6% to Leave, but Scotland voted 62% to Remain. But might nevertheless be dragged out.”

      I, of course, understand the point you are attempting to make. What you refuse to accept though and you cannot reconcile for me, is that the EU referendum was a vote for UK voters. Voters in Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. They voted for the exact potential outcome that we have.

      I didn’t have a vote in your referendum… only SCottish voters voted and they gave their democratic decision.

      Now though, you are effectively arguing that SCottish voters should have the power of veto on all matters affecting the UK. You are arguing that a citizen of the UK registered to vote in Scotland, should have more democratic power than I do Down here near Oxford. You are an intelligent person. You know that cannot be right.

      The “will” of the voters in Scotland was that they wanted to be part of the UK and, implicitly, to be bound by Westminster and, in the case of a referendum, by the UK wide result.

      This victim hood that Scotland is being singled out and dragged somewhere it doesn’t want to go and the characterisation of you being powerless to stop it is the same for every voter in the UK that was outvoted. Boundaries, be they national or constituency, are not relevant in a UK wide referendum.

      In Oxford, we voted 70% Remain ffs! A bigger Remain vote than Scotland!

      But the loonie brigade, and you to some extent, choose to ignore all this stuff that you well know, and portray the situation as victimisation of the poor Scottish voters.

      When Scotland voted to stay in the UK, that meant that your 1m Leave voters ejected me from the EU.

      Do you have English Remain voters demanding Scotland’s vote be ignored because it means they are being dragged out of the EU, by the Scots, against their will?

      It is all victim hood, grievance and undemocratic poppycock.

      In the end, roughly 6 in 10 people in SCotland voted Remain. 7 in 10 in Oxford voted Remain. However, across the UK, the vote average at 5.2 against 4.8 in 10.

      The real differences between us are marginal – contrary to the outrageous slurring and stereotyping you can read above. The average Scot and the average English person are very similar indeed. Any differences that do exist, given the indyref outcome and the EU ref’ outcome, can only be resolved on a one man one vote basis. Anything else is anarchy.

      You, of course, know this – but pretend not to – which is depressing.

    189. heedtracker says:

      I, of course, understand the point you are attempting to make. What you refuse to accept though and you cannot reconcile for me, is that the EU referendum was a vote for UK voters. Voters in Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. They voted for the exact potential outcome that we have.

      Problem is sensible d, toryboy unionist wise, you lot have decided that 2014 No Thanks win was the end of the road, for nation state Scotland. We voted NO, we’re UK forever, so shut up and do what England decides.

      Maybe it was sensible d but you toryboy’s can’t seem to reconcile the fact that maybe youre wrong.

      Certainly massed ranks of beeb gimps in Scotland have decided youre right sensible d.

      Have the rest of us though?

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      What you refuse to accept though and you cannot reconcile for me, is that the EU referendum was a vote for UK voters.

      Mmm, SD, if you think about that in relation to what I said, you’ll realise yours is a self-defeating argument. If Scotland is actually a part of the UK, of course.

      Well, is it?

    191. heedtracker says:

      The real differences between us are marginal – contrary to the outrageous slurring and stereotyping you can read above. The average Scot and the average English person are very similar indeed

      The hysterical Vote NO or else Project Fear rage in 2014 aside sensible d, from BBC Scotland in particular, I’d say also, majority of Scots do not vote tory creepshow by much at all.

      Whereas you English do don’t you sensible d.

      Why is that a marginal difference sensible d?

      Its a deeply immoral or amoral act voting toryboy sensible d, and yet how many English voters are more than delighted to vote toryboy?

      Why is that sensible d?

      Can it really all be down to the hard core vote tory propaganda pouring out of the great beeb gimp network, hour by hour, day by day sensible d?

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      That’s a bit cryptic so I’ll reply to your reply before you’ve made it, as having just completed a long stupidly written and ambiguous form to belatedly claim my pension, somce I couldn;’t do it over the phone as they didn;’ have enough info for me to prove I was me, but fortunately still within the 12 months where I get it backdated, I’m off for a kip before double-checking and posting.

      Yes, current support is a conservative (pardon the pun) 45% for Independence. That’s straightforward, we want out of the UK and have our Government have all the powers, and have control over what it delegates to other bodies (e.g. the EU) – or not. Even those who voted Leave would agree with that, just that they don’t want to be in the EU. Minor difference. We all want Scotland to be in control over all its decisions.

      Then there’s a 10%, used to be 7-8% but I think is a bit higher, that’s 10% want Holyrood abolished. That too is a straightforward position, they don’t like devolution.

      But that leaves 45% in the uncomfortable position of wanting to stay in the UK, but wanting a devolved government as well.

      My argument to you was more their point of view, where they want what’s devolved, to be devolved, and for Scotland’s voice in the UK to be respected and listened to. Personally I don’t want any devolved at all, I want the lot here, and out of the UK. So curiously, if you argue against my arguments you’re not arguing against me you’re arguing against those who want to stay in the UK, with a devolved government.

      How’d you like them apples?

    193. Bob Mack says:

      In the mid 19th Century, out of a population of 2.6 million men in Scotland, only 4,500 were eligible to vote in elections. As usual,only the great and good had been allowed to decide the fate of Scotland in the Union. Times have changed. Now ordinary folk have the vote, and many are coming to see the Union as a deficit rather than a positive.

      Brexit is only another reason to end this unequal alliance.

      It only highlights the important differences that exist which ultimately make this Union untenable.

      Anarchy ? No,not yet Dave. We follow the rules don’t you know

    194. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 11:13 am

      I am obviously having a senior moment as I do not understand the point you are making.

      Please explain.

      … and Heedy… rather than just keeping repeating the same tourettes based nonsensical rubbish … why dont you actually, just once, try to make a cogent, coherent argument that doesn’t include a variation of redbluetoryboybritnat, etc……. I don’t know to whom you are referring. … Do you mean Scottish No voters …. or do you mean everyone else in the UK that didn’t have a vote in indyref1?

    195. Stravaiger says:

      @sensibledave

      You’d have a point if we had got what we had been promised in 2014.

      Where’s our Devo to the Maxiest Maxy Max? Where’s our guarantee of staying in the EU?

      We were sold a pig in a poke and won’t stand for it. End of.

    196. Macart says:

      Pre EU referendum and post 2014 indyref.

      https://archive.is/gftF5

      https://archive.is/rIKNI

      https://archive.is/Hu9LK

      Seems it’s not as if Mr Cameron wasn’t aware of the risk of constitutional crisis. Concerns were indeed raised by Holyrood long before the vote became a reality. For equals and partners, it appears one has the luxury of simply ignoring the other when it’s not the advice or answer they want to hear.

      (shrugs) Spooky, but true.

      (shrugs)

    197. Cubby says:

      @sensibledave
      Sensible Dave is obviously making very sensible comments from his living in ENgland perspective. As someone who lived in ENgland for 7 years I know fine well that most of the English will never understand how we feel and what we experience in Scotland. The end comments are usually just moaning Scots or as sensible Dave said grievance. He also says undemocratic poppycock.

      Well in Scotland we live in a faux democracy where whatever ENgland votes for England gets and whatever Scotland votes for we always get what ENgland wants. If we are lucky the two coincide if not tough. At least in the EU member states in that union do have a veto. In the U.K. ENgland just dominates. In the EU they have a constitution and a formal way of leaving for member states. In the UK no constitution and no formal way of leaving. One is a Union the other is the subjugation by a
      large state over the other smaller states. I’ll let you guess which is which.

      Try imagining growing up and being taught nothing but German history. Try imagining that your TV only covers German news etc. Try imagining that your German TV says that the English are a bunch of drunken wasters or thugs. Try imagining that all your newspapers are German and they say that the English are stupid and always sponging of us kind charitable Germans. Try imagining Germans controlling your businesses and making fun of your culture and accents.

      Sensible Dave is really Helpful Dave as he makes the case for Scottish independence.

    198. Bob Mack says:

      @Stavaiger,

      Yep. Straight on the money.

    199. heedtracker says:

      Please explain.

      … and Heedy… rather than just keeping repeating the same tourettes based nonsensical rubbish …

      No one is arguing with you that the UK is out of the EU now, no one.

      Its you lot sensible d, the great English high toryboy, that’s ranting at Scots like me,

      YOU Brits voted Leave with us Brit English, all together we go, YOU Scots voted NO in 2014, so that’s it, all over now, be good British Scots, for ever and ever and ever, UKOK.

      I know you’re not a delusion English toryboy sensible d but you’re really not making much of case for the UK now.

      Ranting at Scots that we do NOT have a choice, we somehow gave up that choice in 2014, and that’s it forever, is quite funny really, no matter how hard you try to wrap us all up in giant union jacks.

    200. Ottomanboi says:

      Whatever the opinion of the English electorate may be as raw data it is the processing of that by British state apparatus that will decide the issue. In a parliamentary democracy it is ‘the elect(ed)’ who count. They are influenced by complex matters that the general public tends to discount as bothersome detail. International concerns weigh little on the domestic scale.
      The process of quitting the EU is to many tiresome procrastination. In their view the vote to leave should have meant instant departure. The fact that Scotland for example voted to stay will not cause that constituency any sleepless nights.
      In the corridors of power, amongst those with the gift of foresight, nightmare scenarios may trouble slumber.
      Scottish independence is not a purely Scottish domestic issue. As we have seen in Catalunya such issues subvert the comfortable established socio-political ‘balance’ of the old order.
      We need an increasing measure of sophistication in our dealings with such ‘anciens régimes’.

    201. heedtracker says:

      Try imagining growing up and being taught nothing but German history.”

      Its a good if hard point and it is everywhere, certainly across the beeb gimp network.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09rzqjg

      The Great Glen
      The Essay, New Ways Through the Glens Episode 4 of 5

      With the title from an essential work by A.R.B. Haldane, ‘New Ways Through the Glens’ is Kenneth Steven’s personal reflection on the changes brought to the people and landscape of the Scottish Highlands by the arrival of roads and canals in the 18th and 19th centuries. In this Essay he looks at the ambitious project to build a canal through the heart of the Highlands along the Great Glen, linking east and west.”

      In this little 15 minute display of how the great beeb gimp network writes Scottish history, a tory twit explains how UK gov really really loved Scotland’s Highlanders in the late 18th century and how they wanted to do everything they could to make their lives lovely and British.

      I UKOK shit you not.

    202. sensibledave says:

      Heedy

      Clearly, you are even more stupid than I thought.

      I will go slowly for you ….

      YOu wrote “Ranting at Scots that we do NOT have a choice, we somehow gave up that choice in 2014, and that’s it forever, is quite funny really, no matter how hard you try to wrap us all up in giant union jacks.”

      My only desire with respect to Scotland is that Scots should leave or stay in the UK based upon the outcome of a democratic vote in Scotland and hence the will of
      the majority of voters in SCotland.

      Is there some other position that you think I should take?

      IF so please explain ( as if you were explaining it to a Scottish no voter ).

      If your point is that there should be another referendum now then say so.

      IF your point is that there should be another referendum at another point in time. When should that be? IF that point in time is the very moment in time when you believe that you will have the opportunity to wreck the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of voters in the UK (not me remember) then say so.

      If you mean there should be another referendum at a date during the transition period then say so.

      If you think there should be another referendum in SCotland post Brexit then say so.

      If you think that the majority of voters in the UK should not be allowed to express , and then implement, an opinion and policy …. until the SCots have had a separate vote to see whether the rest of the UK should be allowed to make a decision then please say so.

      Once I know what it is that you think I personally want to to stop …. then I may have an answer for you.

    203. Brian Powell says:

      Bob Mack

      In NI, in the 60s a man who didn’t pay rates, that is one in a Council house, had no vote. A man who owned his own house had up to 20 votes.

      The march on Bloody Sunday was about civil rights and votes.

      The entrenched powers make sure their powers stay entrenched.

    204. Bob Mack says:

      We all know we sprang from the ape. Sensible did not just spring far enough.

    205. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      Tories lose Selkirk by-election.

      Caroline Penman (Independent) wins seat on 45.1 turnout.

    206. Cubby says:

      @sensibledave
      You say only SCottish voters got a vote in the SCottish referendum.

      I lved in England for 7 years I never became English I was always a Scot living in England.

      There is a large English Welsh Irish and EU population living in Scotland. They all got the vote. Do you think all these people thought of themselves as Scottish? Do you want to retract this comment?

      The (Scottish ha ha) Daily Mail headline was “it was the English that won it for us”. You can always rely on these papers to create division.

      I am fed up with people saying the Scots voted to stay in the U.K. The people living in Scotland voted to stay. In particular the EU citizens were told that if they voted yes they would be voting to remove all their rights as they would be out of the EU. Staying in the UK would keep them in the EU? More British Nationalist lies. These are the same EU citizens denied the vote in the EU ref. British Nationalist ideas of fairness!!!!!!

    207. sensibledave says:

      Cubby 11:40 am

      “As someone who lived in ENgland for 7 years I know fine well that most of the English will never understand how we feel and what we experience in Scotland”

      … I sort of do Cubby. Not based anecdotal evidence of an aunt’s cousin’s gardener that knows someone that lives in Scotland …. no, not that type of ridiculous citation. Nor based upon what the majority of folk here on Wings say.

      I base my knowledge upon the outcome of indyref 1. In addition, I look at the outcome of the most recent GE, where the majority of Scottish voters voted for parties opposed to Independence.

      I also note, despite all of the posturing, No one in power at Holyrood is calling for indyref 2 now.

      Based upon all of that hard evidence (rather than made up stuff and conjecture) I am left with the view that the majority of Scots want to remain part of the UK.

      Now, I really dont mind whether Scotland is in or out. However, Scottish voters cannot have the right to call a referendum every 5 minutes such that the “UK” cannot move forward until it has had “approval” from Scots.

      Should the good folk in Oxfordshire have the right of veto on Scottish Law?

    208. Bob Mack says:

      @ Brian Powell,

      And that Sir is a prime example of why people believe that England via Westminster is only interested in subjugation of other countries within the UK. It is has has always been undemocratic, relying on colonisation to absorb a nation. I remember to tell folk about the Plantations in N Ireland at this point.

      I will bet you that Unionists had more clout and voting rights in N IRELAND as well.

      Time to leave England to itself.

    209. heedtracker says:

      If you think that the majority of voters in the UK should not be allowed to express , and then implement, an opinion and policy …. until the SCots have had a separate vote to see whether the rest of the UK should be allowed to make a decision then please say so.”

      Well sensible d, that was one of the Better Together campaign’s core thingees in 2014,

      Lead Don’t Leave! wept Cammers the toryboy Britnat ultra, in that last hysterical indyref1 Project Fear week .

      And we all know what happened the day after the great Lead dont Leave shyste went down sensible d, same Cammers outside no.10,

      “Scots voted No, fcuk em all, its EVEL time”

      or is that all being expunged from Scots memory too sensible d?

      You’re right though sensible, your English high toryboy vote makes my Scottish vote completely and utterly worthless in this farce union, as you desperately try to wrap me in giant union jacks.

      It may still work indyref2 sensible d. Stranger things have happened.

    210. sensibledave says:

      Cubby

      You wrote “There is a large English Welsh Irish and EU population living in Scotland. They all got the vote. Do you think all these people thought of themselves as Scottish? Do you want to retract this comment?

      Sorry Cubby, I thought that we lived in enlightened times.

      Just when I thought we were communicating …. the thinly veiled, insidious, sinister face of your Nationalism rears its very ugly head.

      Maybe Scots, that aren’t Scots by your definition, should be made to wear yellow stars sewn to their clothing?

    211. heedtracker says:

      Now, I really dont mind whether Scotland is in or out. However, Scottish voters cannot have the right to call a referendum every 5 minutes such that the “UK” cannot move forward until it has had “approval” from Scots

      That’s also a very English tory thing to fart out at Scots sensible d.

      Who the fcuk are you tell Scotland what we can and can’t do?

      Oh yeah you’re English, a toryboy, in England and you rule Scotland still.

    212. Stravaiger says:

      @sensibledave

      How are we stopping you from getting what you want? It is you (well, Westminster) who are stopping us from getting what we want.

    213. wull2 says:

      He might be helpful, but we are converted, he is clogging up the site and driving the people we want convert away.
      That’s what he wants, don’t feed him, just tell everyone to vote YES next time.

    214. heedtracker says:

      Maybe Scots, that aren’t Scots by your definition, should be made to wear yellow stars sewn to their clothing?

      And there it is, when planet toryboy has nowhere left to go in Scotland, Scottish nazi smear gets going.

      Do you really think calling Scots nazis, will help you keep control of Scotland sensible d?

    215. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Oy vey anudda shoah.

    216. Bob Mack says:

      The process of evolution is a wonderful thing. It applies to mountains ,rivers,and all forms of life.except that is for Scottish people. They chose once and must remain in that state even though everything else changes around them.

      I remember being on the losing side of a referendum but I am damned if I can remember agreeing to give up my rights to choose independence even if everything changed

      Up until 1920’s and we’ll beyond we had no real choice of how Scotland wanted to evolve as a Nation.

      It was represented by Unionist politicians who gave no thought to self determination of its people. Independence is actually still evolving ,with the latest opinion poll indicating neck and neck results. If it continues to evolve ,so much the better.

    217. sensibledave says:

      Heedy

      You wrote “Who the fcuk are you tell Scotland what we can and can’t do?”

      … a citizen of the UK with exactly the same rights and responsibilities as you.

      OUR parliament in Westminster (the one Scots voted to be governed by) holds elections and referendums from time to time. The outcome of that democratic vote determines what everybody “is told what to do”.

      As an example, even though I voted Remain in the EU referendum, the majority of voters in the UK have the right to tell me that I am leaving the UK (somewhat ironically, given the context, if the 1m Scottish voters that voted “leave” in the EU refendum, had voted “Remain”, then I wouldn’t be leaving the EU)

      Is this a bit hard for you Heedy?

    218. sensibledave says:

      heedy

      … aimed specifically at Cubby. If you would like to defend Cubby’s comments, go ahead.

    219. PictAtRandom says:

      sensibledave says:
      23 February, 2018 at 12:23 pm

      Now, I really dont mind whether Scotland is in or out. However, Scottish voters cannot have the right to call a referendum every 5 minutes such that the “UK” cannot move forward until it has had “approval” from Scots.

      Should the good folk in Oxfordshire have the right of veto on Scottish Law?

      The Scotshire meme has arrived. But how will the SNP non-nationalists deal with it?

    220. heedtracker says:

      … a citizen of the UK with exactly the same rights and responsibilities as you.

      All of your Brits BetterTogether stuff only makes sense right up to Carlisle sensible d. Then its all nonsense.

      You toryboys seem to have an enormous mental block around the hard fact that Scotland is a nation state signatory to this Treaty of Union with your country England.

      Yes a lot of you toryboys pretend that Scotland is a mere region, yes some Scots like it that way too.

      But you can never rub out this fact of union with England, that its only a treaty between two nation states.

      Is this all a bit hard for you sensible d?

      Just stick to the Scottish nazis smearing sensible d. Its your level.

    221. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 11:03,

      The second of those links gave the classical liberal establishment reaction to the IR1 result:

      Many senior politicians and commentators believe that a profound constitutional shake-up will be needed in order to accommodate the promises of greater devolution made by all three main parties during the campaign.

      So what happened to that “shake-up”? Instead we got a quite different one which is promising to do the exact reverse of that wonderful new future together, as you correctly surmise.

      It’s the complete gulf between what was promised and what is (not) being delivered that is the elephant in the room that insensible clearly can’t see, while he desperately strives to defend his English hegemony.

      As far as the south are concerned, Scottish independence wasn’t and isn’t about us at all, but about them.

    222. Cubby says:

      @sensibledave
      Keep up the good work helpful dave. The more people read your comments the more it helps the case for Scottish independence.

      Are you German yet?

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave says: “yesindyref2 11:13 am

      I am obviously having a senior moment as I do not understand the point you are making.

      Please explain.

      I expected your senior moment and explained at 11:27 am.

      No, not that one, that’s the pepper pot.

    224. geeo says:

      People still think the EU ref could be a “uk wide” vote and still have an Act and treaty of Union…!!

      How naive of them.

      Scotland and England are EQUAL partners in the union. My source ? The Act Of Union 1707.

      Sovereignty sits with SCOTTISH PEOPLE “in perpetuity” (forever). My source ? The Treaties of Union (within the Act of Union) of which BOTH EQUAL partners SIGNED UP TO to create the Union.

      Both these basic tenets of the Union’s existance mean that ONE (equal) PARTNER CANNOT force their will on the other.

      Especially, and particularly, in a plebiscite, which asks what the will of the SOVEREIGN SCOTS PEOPLE is.

      That sovereign will was to remain.

      By trying to remove Scots from the EU against our SOVEREIGN WILL, Scots are being subjugated, which is a clear breach of the Act and Treaties of Union 1707.

      That means the end of the Union.

      You cannot claim both a uk wide (EU) vote and keep the union.

      A point about to be highlighted when the SG present the EU Continuity Bill at Holyrood.

      There will be 2 claims on the 111 powers, one from WM and one from the SG.

      That can only end in a courtroom if nobody backs down.

      In that court case, the issues of Sovereignty of Scots and breach of the Act and Treaty of Union 1707 can be introduced.

      The wording of the Act and Treaty can only result in one conclusion, in favour of the SG.

      The SG EU continuity Bill is a legal formalising of the Legislative Consent Motion.

      At present, WM can ignore a LCM and bluff it out, the SG EU Continuity Bill changes that completely.

      WM are desperately trying to get agreement on thrse 111 powers with the SG, but unless they agree to unilateral devolution of EVERY power with ZERO caveats, they are on plums.

      Timing of the EU Continuity Bill is everything, tactically. The SNP are playing a blinder here.

      The union could end in a courtroom over this issue, and WM know it.

      Like their inept EU ‘negotiating’ WM are all talk no trousers.

    225. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The union could end in a courtroom over this issue, and WM know it.”

      Which is why WM will cave in to all 111 powers coming to Holyrood because the very LAST thing WM wants, it’s to take this to the courts where Scottish Sovereignty legally MUST prevail. They just don’t want Scots knowing just how much power we actually DO HAVE in this so-called ‘Union’.

      WM will cave in – they have to or the Union really will be dissolved in a court room.

    226. galamcennalath says:

      Place you posters, fasten your flags, button your badges. Ready, steady …..

      “We cannot make sense of all the ideas they have floated because lots of them are inconsistent,” said an EU diplomat of the UK Government plans.

      … perhaps that is the objective … it’s not supposed to make sense!

      Frustrated by what they view as unclear UK positions, EU leaders plan to make a no-frills offer based loosely on an existing free trade deal with Canada.

      ‘Canada plus a wee bit’ versus May’s ‘Canada plus plus plus’.

      Given that the UK has virtually nothing to negotiate with, the EU offer will be the ‘best’ they get. Clearly, that would necessitate IndyRef2.

      …. and we’re off!

      https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/eu-officials-attack-theresa-mays-brexit-blueprint-hours-after-chequers-summit-a3774081.html
      [ won’t archive ]

    227. schrodingers cat says:

      indyref1 was a scottish vote
      euref was a uk vote

      i’ve no problem with that

      indyref2 will be a scottish vote to see if scotland still wishes to stay in what the uk has now become.

      when we win, i dare say the folk in oxfordshire wont have any problem with that either

      the SG has a democratic mandate to call indyref2 during this holyrood parlaiment and will do at a time of their choosing, not the people of oxfordshire
      ——-
      Scottish voters cannot have the right to call a referendum every 5 minutes such that the “UK” cannot move forward until it has had “approval” from Scots.
      ———

      the scottish government has the right to call a referendum when ever they are mandated by the voters to do so via an election.
      no decision taken in scotland will stop the rUK and oxfordshire moving in any direction it wants.

    228. Cubby says:

      @sensibledave
      Thought there was a small chance that helpfuldave might want to learn something about why so many Scots want independence but turned out he was just another ignorant troll.

      Bye bye helpful dave.

      Vote yes at indyref2.

    229. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Foulds says: 23 February, 2018 at 9:48 am:

      “If one has to look at money, my simplistic take is the Micawber principle and I believe we already achieve a positive between earnings and expenditure without even contemplating what we can do under full control of all the mechanisms and potential in the future.”

      Ian, I’m sure of one thing after reading your comment and that one thing is you are the simple many you claim to be. However, you do have one rather large error in that comment.

      While the Micawber principle is applicable to domestic, household and personal financial situations it no longer is applicable to the economies of countries and/or states. This has been true since these nations and/or states stopped tying their finances with the gold standard.

      Let me attempt to explain how these countries or states economies now operate by showing how Westminster operates the United Kingdom economy.

      The first thing they do is sell of the gold reserves as these, while still being a valuable asset that can be sold off, play no great part in the economy.

      Here is how it worked out in the United, (cough!), Kingdom.

      The Bank of England is formally titled, “The Governor and Company of the Bank of England”, and it is the central bank of the United Kingdom. It is also the model on which most modern central banks have been based. It was Established in 1694 and is the second oldest central bank in operation today. The Bank of England is the world’s 8th oldest bank and was established to act as the Government of the Kingdom of England’s banker but was never owned by the Kingdom of England Government. It is not still one of the bankers for the Government of the United Kingdom. The Bank was privately owned by its stockholders from its foundation in 1694 until it was nationalised in 1946.

      Then, In 1998, it became an independent public organization, wholly owned by the Treasury Solicitor on behalf of the government, with independence in setting monetary policy. The Bank of England is one of eight banks authorised to issue banknotes in the United Kingdom, but it has a monopoly on the issue of banknotes in England and Wales and regulates the issue of banknotes by commercial banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

      The Bank has a, ” Monetary Policy Committee”, which has a devolved responsibility for managing monetary policy. The Treasury has reserve powers to give orders to the committee “if they are required in the public interest and by extreme economic circumstances”. However, such orders must be endorsed by Parliament within 28 days.[ The Bank’s Financial Policy Committee held its first meeting in June 2011 as a macro prudential regulator to oversee regulation of the UK’s financial sector.

      Now, as a regulator and central bank, the Bank of England no longer offers consumer banking services. It does, though, still manage some public-facing services. Such as exchanging superseded bank notes. Now here’s the thing. modern countries do not require to back up their economies by matching the country’s claimed wealth with gold bullion. The simply print off more banknotes and ease them into the economy and that is where they differ from The Micawber principle.

      The Bank of England simply prints off some extra banknotes and buys UK Government issued bonds, (Gilts). Then it eases the banknotes into circulation and later the Bank gives the gilts back to the Government. So, unlike Mr Micawber, the Government cannot go bust and end up in a debtors prison.

    230. Breastplate says:

      Sensibledave,
      Yes, we can have a referendum every 5 minutes if there is a mandate given by the Scottish People.
      It’s called democracy.
      Like it or lump it Dave.

    231. Breastplate says:

      Sensibledave,
      I personally think we should have an Indyref every term of the Scottish Parliament if there happens to be a winner with that in their manifesto.
      If the rest of the UK don’t like the uncertainty of that every 5 years, well tough, they can campaign for certainty by rubber endorsing independence.

    232. Robert Peffers says:

      @Stravaiger says: 23 February, 2018 at 10:12 am

      “Then it’s a done deal, too late to do anything about it.”

      Thing is, it is never too late to do something about it. Just ask Louis XVI and the last Queen of France, Marie Antoinette who though they had all France sown up tight until – –

      Oh! Wait up! You cannot ask them as the French peasants executed them both before France became a republic.

    233. Breastplate says:

      While I’m here Dave,
      Why don’t you call our next independence referendum, neverendum2 because according to the Unionists we weren’t going to have the first one.

    234. Bill not Ben says:

      Said Philip to Liz as they sat down to dine
      I’ve just had a note from a good friend of mine
      His name is big Geordie, he’s loyal and true
      And the colour of his nose, its a deep shade of blue

      Just a little bit of humour, i first heard this as a boy, and it just came to me the other day

    235. geeo says:

      If there is a winning party who have an indyref in their manifesto, there MUST be a referendum held in that parliament term, or that party will find themselves out of power next time.

      Which is exactly why this pishtalk of waiting until after the next Holyrood election is utter lunacy.

      If you vote Tory at WM for 5 elections in a row, you get 30 years of tory policy.

      Nobody would suggest after 5 years those tory governments should stop delivering Tory policy. (Ok..non tories would..but you get the point).

    236. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breastplate @ 14:13,

      I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

      (Which is of course why we have this other fork of the anti-indy campaign, the one to persuade the people of Scotland that they really, really do want a Red-Blue-Orange cringe coalition running Scotland.)

      I think it’s a bit rich for southerners like insensible to lecture us on uncertainty, when we have a Tory government in London which has just decided, near two years after the EUref, what it just might possibly be hoping to get from the complete shambles it’s made of Brexit.

      And already be told by the EU that it’s not a runner. Not going to happen. No win, no cigar. =sigh=

      Hey UK, “uncertainty” has become your second name. And it has nothing to do with us in Scotland. We want out of it.

      And unlike you, we only have to win once.

    237. Breastplate says:

      Agreed Geeo,
      I don’t understand why some people have bought into this “once in a generation” pish.

    238. Dr Jim says:

      Mars bars are at the centre of Scotlands Democracy
      If Scotland chooses to eat a Mars once they must never be allowed to change to a Snickers bar under any circumstances even if Mars changes the recipe to taste horrible because Mars is what they chose to eat for the rest of their lives so get over it

      God save the Queen

    239. Stravaiger says:

      @Robert Peffers

      “Thing is, it is never too late to do something about it.”

      Well yes, there is always that 😉
      I hope it doesn’t come to it, but if it does…

    240. Breastplate says:

      Yes Robert, I think there are plenty of us who think the same way on the matter.

    241. geeo says:

      @Dr Jim.

      It will never be a Snickers…it’s a Marathon bar !!! Hehe.

    242. call me dave says:

      As mentioned earlier: 41.5% turnout.

      Independent candidate Caroline Penman has been elected as a councillor for Scottish Borders Council’s Selkirkshire ward following a by-election yesterday.

      https://archive.is/W8nQr

      Scot goes pop will update us all on the details later.

      PS
      Lots of tennis again this morning 🙁

    243. doug bryce says:

      >“What you refuse to accept though and you cannot reconcile for me, is that the EU referendum was a vote for UK voters.”

      SensibleDave,

      Scotland can not remain in UK and the EU.
      Therefore one of the results (2014, 52% UK or 2016, 62% EU) must be dis-respected. Or perhaps one of the votes is rerun ?

      Of course a major feature of the Better Together campaign involved suggesting independence meant losing our EU membership… See tweet below.

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Screen-Shot-2016-06-24-at-13.03.41.png

      D

    244. doug bryce says:

      >“What you refuse to accept though and you cannot reconcile for me, is that the EU referendum was a vote for UK voters.”

      SensibleDave,

      Scotland can not remain in UK and the EU.
      Therefore one of the results (2014, 55% UK or 2016, 62% EU) must be dis-respected. Or perhaps one of the votes is rerun ?

      Of course a major feature of the Better Together campaign involved suggesting independence meant losing our EU membership… See tweet below.

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Screen-Shot-2016-06-24-at-13.03.41.png

      D

    245. Robert Peffers says:

      @Peter McCulloch says: 23 February, 2018 at 10:50 am:

      “Unfortunately as long as we remain in this union, the SNP and its politicians are always going to be monstered for
      any perceived infraction. While those of the British establishment can get away with murder.

      It is fairly certain that the BritishUnited Kingdom Government are getting away with murder on a daily basis. I’m not just referring to the rather doubtful sudden, (claimed to be suicide), deaths of what the Establishment deemed to be great threats to the establishment. Not even to the many thousands of extra early deaths of poor, elderly, homeless and disabled people since sanctions were begun by the Tory government.

      I speak here about the daily raids by unmanned armed drones of what the Westminster elite class as terrorist leaders in foreign lands but which also take out many civilian non-combatants. In my book killing non-combatants who are actually being terrorised by the people the UK is targeting is murder.

    246. starlaw says:

      Who decided EU referendum was a vote for UK voters. This vote directly affected the lives of the people of Scotland who held there own referendum, as did England, Wales, and N Ireland.
      Accept the result and butt out.

    247. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert J Sutherland
      Exactly it is all about them. Scottish sovereignty is a party pooper threatening the ‘good times’ we’re all supposed to be enjoying.
      Rarely is there any attempt to understand why a significant proportion of our electorate aspires to a different order of government in which our national interests are considered paramount. Scotland is just seen as a sort of Yorkshire with a different ‘northern’ accent. Culture,’oop north’, began in 1707!
      England aka UK made us and we ought to be grateful for the privilege.
      India got railways and cricket and was similarly deemed ‘ungrateful’ in those condescending eyes.
      Federalism, with nice anglo-bias built in, might save Ukania’s bacon if only the English masses could care about such administrative arcana.

    248. Dr Jim says:

      We must be winning, the First Minister’s getting absolutely heaps of abuse today from proud British Rangers till I die and Arsenal Scot buts people, Better togetherers from London and overseas expats who fought in wars to save us from penury and the nasty furriners who but for them we’d all be speaking German

      Yoonworld’s in a Tizz

      Must be to do with Mundells honesty and leadership qualities…and the beard thing of course

    249. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 23 February, 2018 at 11:05 am

      “What you refuse to accept though and you cannot reconcile for me, is that the EU referendum was a vote for UK voters of the UK.

      No one could be bothered to explain it to you as it seems you are either just far too thick to understand why. or you are here with the intention of claiming you do not understand it. Yet everyone else can see what is so very obvious as to it being a vote of the bipartite UK United Kingdom.

      So I’m not going to be the one to explain it for you if you are so intent upon demonstrating how stupid you are why should I attempt to stop you. Go figure it out for yourself.

    250. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      BREAKING: Energy giant Ineos has won the right to have a judicial review of the Scottish Government’s decisions to ban fracking.

    251. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      WGD remains on his usual good form, I see:

      Ruth Davidson has no power to ensure that Scottish Tory MPs vote the way she wants them to, and her much vaunted standing up for Scotland is as mythical as a good Brexit. She’s been cut down by her own McBrexiteers.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/02/21/pure-dross-that-toss-arse-miss-and-durrty-yin/

      and

      Brexit has moved on from promises of an extra £350 a week for the NHS, freedom from faceless EU bureaucrats, and delivery into the sunlit uplands of taking back control, to assurances that starving peasants scavenging rusty car parts in the post-apocalyptic Brexit wasteland are not actually going to beat one another to death in the Thunderdome while Theresa May does an impression of Aunty Entity.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/02/20/david-davis-is-a-hero-we-dont-need/

    252. Proud Cybernat says:

      Anne Lundon, on Reporting Scotland, just said:

      “Scotland’s women Curlers have just lost their semi-final game against Sweden, but the GB team can still win a Bronze medal”.

      ‘Scotland’ LOST, but, ‘GB’ can still WIN.

      Whut urr they like!!!!

    253. K1 says:

      Ineos are a shower of bastards.

    254. K1 says:

      Tell me, if renewables are the way forward, why are they so keen to frack?

      Greed.

      The UKexit is a resource grab…deals being made and ways being found to destroy the SNP, is simply a means to an end.Scotland’s on the road to hell if we don’t get out soon.

    255. Giving Goose says:

      Bill not Ben

      Don’t you mean that his nose should be a deep shade of brown?

    256. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Union Jackie Kim Ono:

      https://imgur.com/a/vHJPe

    257. Dr Jim says:

      Lord Davies of Stamford, Labour Peer just said in the Lords

      “The very definition of sovereign means in legal terms you do not have to take instruction from anyone”

      The Noble Lord agrees with Scotland then

    258. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ineos and Fracking, perhaps a cunning plan from Scots Government moving from Moratorium to outright ban , I cant see them not knowing there would be a good chance of a legal challenge from Ineos. Maybe bring a few waverers onboard when they see as part of UK we font have the powers of a “Parrish Council” (copywrite Tony Blair)

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      Totally OT
      SYHA are renaming themselves Hostelling Scotland (though the legal name stays the same).

      Shame to lose the old name, but I agree with that idea, the “Y” is nonsense these days, a lot of old fogies some with bus passes, still yomping around, families, couples in private rooms, young folk out for a laugh or even climbing hills, tourists of all nationalities looking for budget accomodation, campers sick of being soaked (or of midgies), it’s evolved.

    260. Jack Murphy says:

      UK BREXIT WAR CABINET YESTERDAY AT CHEQUERS.

      Nice photo,but no sign of the Secretary of State for Scotland,David Mundell MP,Scotland’s man in Mrs. May’s Cabinet.

      Whatever happened to the Treaty of Union of equals?

      Don’t bother answering. 🙁

      Photo and article from RT UK:
      “Keeping up? Here’s a brief guide to what might have just happened in Brexit”

      https://tinyurl.com/yb22lbkk

    261. gus1940 says:

      As Victor M. would say ‘I don’t believe it’ – Farage is on QT yet again next week.

      They really are laughing at and taking the piss out of the SNP now.

    262. Dr Jim says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Exactly right, we knew this was always going to be a possibility but the Banning demands came from the Greens and the Labour party so it’ll be interesting to hear what they intend to do with their support for the Scottish public who they kept annoyed at the prospect of there NOT being a ban introduced by the Baad SNP Guv

      Or will Labour just resort to the Jackie Baille argument *we know it’s bad but jobs*

    263. jfngw says:

      How the UK works

      Only one MP from Scotland votes for EU referendum. MP’s from England force Scots to take part. Scots reject leaving EU, they are told it is a UK vote so they are leaving anyway despite every Scottish region voting remain.

      This beloved union!

    264. galamcennalath says:

      All things are relative. However, it is clear the ‘soft faction’ at WM actually favour a Hardish Brexit!

      ‘Softies’ can put a commitment to A Customs Union as an amendment in the Trade Bill. But that is still in the realms of HARD.

      Status quo – EU
      Softest Brexit – EEA, like Norway
      Soft Brexit – EFTA, like Switzerland
      Hardish Brexit – Customs Union, like Turkey
      Hard Brexit – Free Trade Agreement, like Canada
      Cliff Edge – WTO

      http://brexitoptions.co.uk/diagram.html

    265. Vestas says:

      @ yesindyref2 3:58 pm :

      “Totally OT
      SYHA are renaming themselves Hostelling Scotland (though the legal name stays the same).

      Shame to lose the old name, but I agree with that idea, the “Y” is nonsense these days, a lot of old fogies some with bus passes, still yomping around, families, couples in private rooms, young folk out for a laugh or even climbing hills, tourists of all nationalities looking for budget accomodation, campers sick of being soaked (or of midgies), it’s evolved.”

      Ummm it was like that 25 years ago. I’d guesstimate the average age of (S)YHA users is 55.

      If you want a viable YHA then Germany is the way to go – you’re over 25? Sorry but you can’t use this (heavily subsidised and very good) accommodation. Probably changed by now but 25 seemed like a good cutoff point to me.

    266. Terry says:

      @referendum1707
      Interesting idea. It’s the opposite of Catalonia and Spain where everybody knows the true wealth of Catalonia

      Another idea – there’s been a massive increase in political parties over the last year- and a sizeable number are English Indy parties. I’ve been humouring some of them on twitter with the likes of – “of course a proud country like England with its vast heritage deserves its own parliament and independence! We can all be Indy friends – like the Scandinavians!!!”

    267. wull2 says:

      Is it just me, but has anyone else not had a update on the Revs twitter for 6 hrs ?

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      @Vestas
      Yes for the age, twas even so, mmm, 40 years ago, probably more. But private rooms have become much more widespread over the last 20 years, private hire of hostels, and the accomodation itself has improved greatly plus, cough, alcohol allowed and even beer sold.

      Hostels were sold off as affiliates, and the rest refurbished. Some dorms even have power sockets for mobile phones and cameras. Plus of course chores went out years ago, most people arrive by car generally, and hostels sell meals for microwaves as well as doing “continental” breakfasts. And last year tea and coffee quietly became free, though the mountain rescue donation box is conveniently nearby.

    269. call me dave says:

      FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2018

      Fresh humiliation for hapless Ruth Davidson as Tories LOSE by-election in “safe” Scottish Borders ward

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/

      Some details on the result and 2nd preferences for those who haven’t dropped in

    270. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 23 February, 2018 at 11:13 am:

      “Mmm, SD, if you think about that in relation to what I said, you’ll realise yours is a self-defeating argument. If Scotland is actually a part of the UK, of course.
      Well, is it?”

      Sorry about this yesindyref2 but both you and the English Tory boy are both failing to see the actual illogicality of the question and of the illogical answers being proposed.

      So I suppose I’d better get it out of the way.

      The English Tory boy looks on the United Kingdom as being a unified state or, much more likely, as a single unified country. The United Kingdom is neither.

      Read the title that the agreement that gave it birth gave it.

      In the beginning it was simply called, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, and made no mention whatsoever of either the Principality of Wales nor of the Kingdom of Ireland – For the very good reason that it was exactly what it called itself A bipartite Kingdom, of which the Kingdom of England contained the Principality of Wales and the Kingdom of Ireland and thus there are only the signatures of the representatives of the only two Kingdoms still extant in 1706/7.

      Since the very beginning Westminster has really been violating the terms they signed up to in the Treaty and in the Act of Union passed by the still legal Parliament of the Kingdom of England that sat and declared itself ended.

      What next sat in that building was the new Parliament of the United Kingdom

      this is the truth but I’m about to expose just how invidious the Westminster Establishment is – the saying Perfidious Albion is a well earned reputation by Westminster.

      Here is the first paragraph from the Wikipedia erroneous article:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_England

      about the birth of the United Kingdom. It is a cut & paste directly from the Wiki page. See it you can spot the obvious deliberate error in it:-

      “The Parliament of England was the legislature of the Kingdom of England, existing from the early 13th century until 1707, when it became the Parliament of Great Britain after the political union of England and Scotland created the Kingdom of Great Britain.”

      If you didn’t spot it then you are not alone. You will find great difficulty searching for the exact date and what exactly saw the ending of the last Kingdom of England Parliament but here is the best I personally found:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Parliament_of_Great_Britain#Continuity_with_English_parliament

      Here is the error, “the Kingdom of England, existing from the early 13th century until 1707, when it became the Parliament of Great Britain”.

      No it did not – it ended and what next sat was not a continuation of the Parliament of England.

      What is clear is that the parliament of England has never had anyone elected to, “The parliament of England”, ever since.

      The Parliament of England ended and the Parliament of Great Britain began. The fact that it sat in the same building, previously housing the Parliament of the Kingdom of England, is totally irrelevant.

      As a comparison the former Parliament building of Scotland is now a Law court but that doesn’t make the Scottish Court the parliament of Scotland.

    271. Ian Foulds says:

      Mr. Peffers at 2.05pm –

      Thank you for your illuminating and detailed explanation of how our financial ‘system’ works.

      Basically, as a simple man, it boils down to ‘smoke and mirrors’.

      Maybe the whole world needs to have a more responsible (and simple) attitude on money and other matters.

      Ian

    272. Ian Foulds says:

      Thank you Scott Finlayson at 10.38am.

      I still don’t get why there is all this talk about financial matters regarding Independence, when the even the video says debt is not a problem right now, so let’s worry about other things (war, disease, famine and so on).

      Simples, Inhave bee;Independent all my life and want my Country to enjoy that status too.

    273. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      It’s always worth you posting that and historically it’s true. But in the minds of most people Scotland is part of the UK, rather than being half of the UK, a UK which if Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will cease to exist in the words of Michael Forsyth, ex secretary of state for Scotland, in the House of Lords.

      That’s the final destruct mechamism in my mind – if the rUK gets silly in post-YES negotiations I personally would say “OK then, we dissolve the UK”. Probably why I wouldn’t make a diplomat.

    274. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 23 February, 2018 at 11:33 am:

      “I am obviously having a senior moment as I do not understand the point you are making.”

      Nah! It may be obvious to you, but it sure as hell is not obvious to most here on Wings.

      “… and Heedy… rather than just keeping repeating the same tourettes based nonsensical rubbish … why dont you actually, just once, try to make a cogent, coherent argument that doesn’t include a variation of redbluetoryboybritnat, etc……. “

      Aye! and once again what heedtracker says is obviously incoherent to you – but so are a great deal many more things about Scotland, the union and independence.

      You simply have the mind-set that has driven a wedge between the only two kingdoms that comprise the united Kingdom. Just like Westminster that believes it is the continued parliament of the Kingdom of England with a Scottish topping. It also believes the Kingdom of Scotland was, “Extinguished”, by the treaty of Union, and that by dividing up the actual bipartite United Kingdom along the lines of four countries but with Westminster also calling itself, not just the parliament of England but calling itself Britain while devolving what it claims is English sovereignty over Scotland.

      “I don’t know to whom you are referring. … Do you mean Scottish No voters …. or do you mean everyone else in the UK that didn’t have a vote in indyref1?”

      No he means simply that as there are only two kingdoms as the component parts of a United Kingdom that is formed due to an agreement between only those two kingdoms when one of them is claiming it is the United Kingdom and the other is a devolved part of the united kingdom and just another country that England has cheated and stolen then when it comes to a vote of whether the Scots want out of the abuse union then it is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide and neither the people of England nor the people of the other two countries of the kingdom of England are getting to overrule the wishes of the people of Scotland.

    275. Ian Foulds says:

      Terry at 4.47pm

      Maybe we should not just humour these English Independence parties but also actively promote/support them?
      Ian

    276. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Foulds
      The Campaign for an English Parliament
      http://thecep.org.uk/

      (not for the faint-hearted)

      When I used to post on the Grun back in 2012, I used to promote them at times 🙂

    277. Ian Foulds says:

      Thanks Indyref2 at 6.12pm.

      I came across another similar site (more civilised version) some time ago but I would rather promote the site you sent as we would be guaranteed their and our Independence in no time!!!

      Ian

    278. yesindyref2 says:

      The fiscal reality, by the way, is that a devolved England along the lines of Scotland, with a GERE, would show a fiscal deficit of around £160 billion a year, 12% of GDP 😎

    279. Ian Foulds says:

      Thanks Indyref2.

      Quality site.

      We should encourage them as this would guarantee us both Independence in ‘jig time’!!!

      Ian

    280. PictAtRandom says:

      The spokesman for Campaign For An English Parliament sez:

      “I am attempting to explain why the promotion of the Yorkshire Party is about creating internal divisions and arguments within England and the UK whilst the British Government is engaged in full Brexit negotiations.”

      So perhaps Dickie Leonard could become more interesting if we treated him as a political refugee. Infamy, infamy…

    281. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Foulds
      An argument to use with them is that if they got devolution, they too would be clamouring for Independence to get away from the UK.

    282. Iain says:

      As indy minded Scots it is important that we should show some sympathy for the ever diminishing unionists as every day as their electorate are loaded into coffins.
      Their old fashioned newspapers are dying their tv and radio are declining in influence and audience.
      Their tactics like “the vow” are throughly discredited and couldn’t be used again.
      Their empire is falling apart Scotland and Northern Ireland soon going their own way.
      Who would be a Yoon!

    283. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, I’m getting carried away as always, must be the fish fingers.

      Just looking at that site you can get a “Patron Membership” for £100.

      Who’d support Wings Over Scotland becoming a Patron …

    284. louis.b.argyll says:

      The English parliament exists already, in effect.

      Offering support to organisations that are about to be swamped by UKIP defectors isn’t for me.

      Can’t even bring myself to check out the link, sorry.

      What youz gonna do- form a ‘Union of independence from abusive neighbour seeking groups’ which would include the abuser?

      If it was ‘democratically’ governed, it would have English chairman, English treasurer, English minute-takers and would likely have a head office in Melton Keynes.

    285. Thepnr says:

      Looks like the forthcoming Brexit talks on a transition are warming up nicely after the Tory cabinet awayday decided nothing.

      The European Union will present a plan for a post-Brexit trade relationship with Britain in March whether or not Theresa May’s government has made up its mind about what it wants, the European Council president has said.

      Speaking after an informal summit of the 27 EU leaders in Brussels, Donald Tusk said it would “be much better” if the UK had an idea of what it wanted ahead of the meeting, but that “we cannot stand by and wait”. He said the UK government’s reported position on trade so far was “pure illusion”.

      https://archive.is/r7wQI

    286. Macart says:

      Um.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-theresa-may-trade-deal-donald-tusk-europe-a8225906.html

      Who knew?

      (Apologies for the lack of archiving. Page goes mental when attempting on that site.)

    287. Indy2 says:

      How would be get by without them?

      Heedy
      Peffers
      Sensible Dave
      Rock
      Yesindyref2

      and all the rest of the merry band of Trolls.

      Between them they have well and truly fucked up a perfectly good website.

    288. Cactus says:

      Roll on March ’18… begins in less than 6 days..

      Have an excellent weekend Wingers.

      Scotland holds the deck.

    289. yesindyref2 says:

      @louis.b.argyll
      It’s seriously good fun.

      “Why don’t you go for your own parliament and become Scotland’s equal?”

      “If you were devolved like Scotland, you would get a fiscal transfer from the rest of the UK of £50 billion – as you are now.”.

      err, and so on, it’s rugby time 🙂

    290. ScottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      “The fiscal reality, by the way, is that a devolved England along the lines of Scotland, with a GERE, would show a fiscal deficit of around £160 billion a year, 12% of GDP ?”

      There is no doubt an independent England would have to have a bigger government fiscal involvement. If you take the sectoral accounting approach to look at the National economy you soon see why..
      Domestic Private Balance + Domestic Government Balance + Foreign Balance = 0
      (The pluses and minuses add up to 0 by accounting identity – it’s a balance sheet)

      For a start England’s trade deficit would increase (Scotland would in the medium term run a trade surplus)
      So say England’s foreign balance went from +2 to +3 (rest of world running a bigger surplus – due net imports..
      Private + gov + 3 = 0

      The private sector can only run deficits for a short period of time. This is what thatcher achieved in her lust for government surpluses (+). It lead to the financial crisis and a huge private debt overhang. The private sector belongs in surplus as bank lending can only go on for so long, but let’s just say we in the private sector just break even (0)
      0 + gov + 3 = 0.

      My sums would say the gov is running a balance of -3 (a defcit).

      The above should show why net exporting countries like Norway etc run govt surpluses. (The rest of the world runs a defcit to them)

      You can play with the variables but it is fair to say Scotland’s trade surplus would make the rest of the equation very different to England. It should also tell us that the claims about Scotland’s so called defcit are bullshit.

      Of course there is nothing wrong with running deficits. Governments with their own central bank and floating currency can run them indefinitely.

      Anyway if the above sounds a bit fishy here’s the official blurb…
      http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2011/06/mmt-sectoral-balances-and-behavior.html

    291. yesindyref2 says:

      Hi Indy2, how’s the jankers going?

    292. Thepnr says:

      @Macart

      Snap! Looks like the Independent website archives fine now whereas it didn’t in the past.

    293. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Macart at 7:18 pm

      You typed,
      “(Apologies for the lack of archiving. Page goes mental when attempting on that site.)”

      I’ve read many comments on WOS about The Independent not archiving. Tonight, with a wee bit time on my hands, I had a go. I should mention this was done on an iMac, running OSX 10.6.8 with Firefox 48.0.2. Your original link was:-

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-theresa-may-trade-deal-donald-tusk-europe-a8225906.html

      This is the archive.is link:-

      http://archive.is/KHqjn

      This is the archived web page at the Wayback machine:-

      https://web.archive.org/web/20180223193643/http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-theresa-may-trade-deal-donald-tusk-europe-a8225906.html

      Feel free to compare them. I asee only one difference that both the archive sites picked up – the sentence,

      “Theresa May’s plan for a post-Brexit trade deal has been immediately written off by the EU as “pure illusion” less than 24 hours after she convinced her ministers to back it at a special lock-in session of Cabinet intended to sort out the UK’s trade stance once and for all.”

      appears after the first graphic at the achive.org Wayback Machine but under the same graphic at archive.is, this sentence appears as,

      “Theresa May’s plan for a post-Brexit trade deal has been immediately written off by the EU as “pure illusion” less than 24 hours after she convinced her ministers to back it at a crisis Cabinet meeting.”

      Neither of these sentences appear at the original link. Could it be that both archiving sites are picking up text that is on the web page but has been flagged as ‘invisible’? indyref2 may be able to shed some light.

    294. louis.b.argyll says:

      Maybe they’ll have a Westminster vote on accepting the EU’S proposed deal..with the default setting falling back on a hard Brexit.

      It’s easy, see, for the UK/Tory government to pick holes, even demonise another nation’s proposals. Enabled, by keen assistance from the ‘owners’ of the BBC,MAIL,SCOTSMAN etc, in the form of cultural vandalism.

      What’s too tricky for the Tories though is to come up with anything at all ON PAPER, that doesn’t expose their greedy overlording racist intentions.

      They, Brexit Unionists, have little imagination and display serious social inhibitions. Except Faragé and Johnson and they’re a couple of fannies.

    295. ScottieDog says:

      @Ian Foulds
      The Campaign for an English Parliament
      http://thecep.org.uk/
      It is tempting to fund it!
      Of course the ‘tax payers funding things’ narrative is neoliberal waffle anyway. A £ has to exist before it can become tax revenue, obvious when we think about it.

      ALOT of £s were pumped into the financial sector by the UK treasury via the Bank of England after the financial crisis. Then all of a sudden these big overinflated (government backed) salaries started yielding alot of tax revenue (the government taxing some of its cash back). Funny that, the spending preceded the tax revenue. Of course now they will say that ‘London runs a surplus’ – aye a government funded surplus!
      At the end of the day spending=income.

      Funny I wonder if any English MPs promote that website? I wouldn’t think so.

    296. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve just been re-reading the two archived links I generated. There is other stuff that is not on the original page but is in the archived versions.

      Ve-r-r-r-y eenteresting…

    297. Cactus says:

      Aye, haud the pack tight tomorrow Scotland.

      Get the ball out to the wingers.

      Forwards.

    298. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      According to today’s Daily Heil Helvellyn is Britain’s 3rd. Highest Mountain.

    299. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      My guess is that the archives have been made at different times and in between those times someone maybe the journaalist or a seb-editor has been tinkering with the wording.

      I don’t know how you could have “invisble” HTML. Just my opinion and not starting an argument LOL.

    300. Petra says:

      This is it folks! Get out there and ‘convert’, ‘convert’, ‘convert’, ASAP.

      The latest news about INEOS should have your hair standing on end because if they win this case, test case, it will open the floodgates for ALL companies who hold licenses to frack in Scotland. INEOS no doubt backed to the hilt by Westminster (and their massive cabal of politicians with ‘energy interests’), a Westminster determined to get their claws into, control over the Scottish environment.

      INEOS has also acquired (from BP) the largest pipeline in the UK Continental Shelf for peanuts. A strategically important Fortes pipeline covering 235 miles, connecting 85 fields, for 150m dollars upfront with a further 150m dollars to be paid over 7 years. The pipeline transports 40% of UK (Scottish) oil and gas to the mainland (plus check out their current oil and gas portfolio online). Talk about having the potential to hold us over a barrel. Bring the country to it’s knees..

      I tell you my heart absolutely breaks for our country when I read of one foreign (or homegrown) company / individual owning oil / gas companies, fracking licences, our land and so on. They’ve stolen our children’s / grandchildren’s future already, in relation to oil and gas revenue, and now they want to decimate our country and in the process ruin their health.

      If you haven’t joined the SNP do it now, to at the very least show that support for them is rising and as I’ve said already get out there and do your utmost to get support for Independence over the 50% mark. It’s absolutely CRUCIAL now. CRITICAL, imo.

    301. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      I archived the site at both archive sites around 7.45pm, immediately after reading the original.

    302. Macart says:

      @BDTT

      Cheers Brian. Much appreciated.

    303. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      Kinda tells you something doesn’t it? In fact it tells you quite a lot. 😉

    304. colin alexander says:

      The Daily Record and The Vow yet again.

      https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/how-vow-led-richest-having-12060199

      I think I’m gonnae spew.

    305. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 20:15,

      I can think of two ways. First the “alt=” part of image links, which normally only appears if you pause the cursor over an image.

      The second is the means by which you embed text for blind people. I don’t know how that works, though.

      Neither of these themselves explain a difference. Possibly though it comes via transient links to other articles embedded in the page. These might just possibly change between viewings, even if near-simultaneous.

      Just some thoughts, anyway.

    306. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      call me dave @ 17:28,

      Many thanks for that one. An incisive analysis from our JK as usual.

      And goes to show the STV-sceptics how council elections can be done once the electorate gets savvy enough. It’s not just BritNat collaborators who can play that particular game.

    307. Capella says:

      @ BDTT -thx – archive is much better – no adverts so easy to read. Sounds like the EU are getting almost as fed up as me with BREXIT.

    308. Meg merrilees says:

      Brian doonthetoon and macart

      those archive link pages have changed the wording again. I’m getting…
      ” a special ‘lock-in’ season for the Cabinet at Checquers’ in the first link and….

      “a ‘lock-in’ away day” in the second link at 21.06.
      Ver-ry inter-est-ink!

    309. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT et al
      Lot you can do with javascript, you could get two totally different pages for different browsers for instance, that’s from your browser (client side) without even programming on the server side, just detection in the HMTL. It was common for different versions to serve different script (HTML).

      Then there’s what used to be called server side includes which generate code, html, and these can analyse the browser headers to see what browser, what operating system, and even IP address. So you could generate different pages for different ranges of IP addresses if you want – or a rude message for a particular one, though most people are dynamic not static (I’m static).

      I have used stuff like that when playing, but stick to straight old-fashioned HTML with CSS to style it according to w3c. I did have “fail-safe” script to enhance the experience, but then you get a new version of something and last year people were submitting orders twice (they didn’t pay twice), so I took it out. Use any browser, that’s my philosophy.

      Oh, search engines like google, and web archives are different user-agents which can also be detected – server side, and refused or even given different versions.

      It’s a wild wild world out there.

    310. Thepnr says:

      Two interesting responses from the BBC under FOI rules regarding cancelling of the TV Licence.

      The first asked the question in early 2014 which was:

      “For each financial year over the last tens years, how many households made a No Licence Needed declaration?”

      The BBC provide answers from 2009 as that was the first year that the No Licence Needed declaration were recorded. The figures given were in the FOI:

      2009 299,266
      2010 438,856
      2011 425,590
      2012 428,359
      2013 463,846

      http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/classes/disclosure_logs/tv_licence/RFI2014-0469-no-licence-needed-claims.pdf

      A different person followed up at the end of last year with this question:

      “Please could you supply me with statistics pertaining to television licence cancellations for the years 2014, 2015 and 2016.”

      The response though was very different to the first FOI.

      “As TV Licensing management information is compiled by financial year, I am providing you below with the information you have requested for the 2013/14 to 2016/17 financial year period. The data relates to licences in force where the licence has been cancelled by TV Licensing as a result of payment failure, and by customers themselves.”

      The numbers were as follows:

      2016/17 788,605
      2015/16 817,509
      2014/15 875,169
      2013/14 945,751

      https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/445361/response/1083214/attach/4/RFI20171664%20Response%2020171211.pdf?

      Now both answers cannot be compared in my opinion, in the second lot they have included figures for where the BBC themselves cancelled the licence.

      There is no way they would ever give you the figures for Scotland alone but even then I think it worth following up with another FOI to ask for the figures from 2009 to date based on the first FOI question.

      “For each financial year over the last tens years, how many households made a No Licence Needed declaration?”

      If I can be bothered getting my finger out and do get a response I’ll let you know.

    311. Another Union Dividend says:

      For those of you not on twitter, you have missed Red Tory Ian Murray’s disgraceful attack on Mhairi Black, who has been struck down with Novovirus, complaining about her missing a vote in the House of Commons.

      Never mind fact that all Labour MPs failed to turn up for Scottish Affairs Committee meeting on effects of EU migrant workers in Scotland after Brexit.

      Murray is a despicable character with no moral scruples as evidenced by his orchestrated resignation in an attempt to topple Jeremy Corbyn, who was the democratically elected leader of the Labour Party, and using a two page spread in the Daily Mail, courtesy of Alan Rodent,to savage his SNP opponent in the run up to the 2015 general election over three year old tweets that were completely misconstrued out of context.

      Murray is a regular abstainer over devolving issues to Holyrood and scrapping Trident and voted for 13.5Billion Tory cuts on 13 January 2015.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/ian-murray-is-a-liar/

      And to think some people think this Union Jacket is respectable enough to give a regular column in Edinburgh Evening News along with his millionaire colleague Daniel Johnston. God help the voters in South Edinburgh.

    312. Phronesis says:

      If the UK leaves the EU abruptly without a deal Scotland should leave the UK immediately because as a country, Scotland didn’t vote for this calamitous process. No business sector,industry or household will be unaffected. The CBI has pondered on how to ‘make a success of Brexit’ but unlike WM it has done its homework. There isn’t much hope of success with. For example,

      ‘The UK chemicals and plastics industry has relatively high logistics costs as part of the total supply chain and thus 53% of the UK chemicals industry’s exports are to the EU …The EU has also facilitated international regulations, such as the adopting of the UN’s system of labelling and classification, so the symbols for ‘corrosive’ and ‘flammable’ are universal.

      http://www.cbi.org.uk/making-a-success-of-brexit/Chemical_and_Plastics.html

      Given the range of energy regulations currently enforced by the EU, leaving without a deal would create an unprecedented situation. Domestic regulation could blunt some of these effects. However, the UK could lose the privileges of the IEM and joint legal mechanisms for managing the all-island Ireland electricity market…
      UK energy projects are currently able to compete for EU funding through programmes such as Horizon2020 and Projects of Common Interest, which can help with important investments. The UK is the biggest recipient of the EIB’s dedicated energy funding, securing 24% of total available funds

      http://www.cbi.org.uk/making-a-success-of-brexit/Energy.html

      The process of leaving the EU must be as smooth as possible for the manufacturing sector. In a scenario where the UK leaves the EU without a deal or temporary interim arrangement, the sudden imposition of tariffs and complex customs processes would be hugely disruptive. Confusion and delays for imports and exports have the potential to affect entire supply chains if sufficient time is not secured to transition to new arrangements.

      http://www.cbi.org.uk/making-a-success-of-brexit/Manufacturing.html

      It will be an enormous challenge for the UK to negotiate a duty-free deal with the EU, and put in place effective customs procedures within the 2 year time frame envisaged by Article 50. The immediate imposition of tariffs and paperwork, particularly on perishable products, would create complexity and cost at borders. Every effort must be made to avoid that

      http://www.cbi.org.uk/making-a-success-of-brexit/Retail_and_wholesale.html

      If the UK leaves the EU without an interim arrangement or new deal, the transport, distribution and logistics sector is likely to experience the brunt of this impact. The UK and EU’s legal obligations to treat each other as a third country would be in place immediately, and companies in this sector would be expected to facilitate this change in partnership with government. The capacity of IT systems, human resource, space and physical infrastructure to support these additional burdens – such as new customs checks at the border – are very much in doubt.

      http://www.cbi.org.uk/making-a-success-of-brexit/Transport_distribution_and_lo.html

    313. Cactus says:

      Five caricatures for tomorrow you say, see see…

      It’s X.

    314. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 23 February, 2018 at 3:30 pm:

      Link:
      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16044337.Fossil_fuel_giant_wins_right_to_challenge_Scottish_Government_s_fracking_ban

      Did anyone doubt that they would get a revue?

      Anyway it is a win/win situation for the Scottish Government. It the SG wins we don’t get fracked – if the SG loses there’s going to be lots of property owners, householders, agricultural enterprises including farmers rather upset and at the first signs of contamination there will be total uproar and there will most certainly be more than a few former NO voters turning to YEs.

    315. Terry says:

      Apart from the fun tactic of encouraging English independence (most of them think scotland is scrounging and have an inflated opinion of England’s Indy potential) here’s another idea –

      Next ref we will start at 45%. Indy is a much more tangible outcome. With that in mind each unionist party should be asked how THEY would run scotland if the vote went for Yes. They can’t bluster this time. What would they put forward as a manifesto in the event of independence? Once they’ve done this their supporters would make that mental leap to how their party would act come Indy. They got off with avoiding doing this last time – but not this time. And once they’ve to engage with the possibility the chances of their voters voting yes increases. Arguably!!!

    316. Shinty says:

      O/T Just noticed on our Britnat press that environmentalists are upset about an indy rally up Ben Nevis

      Are they fucking serious?

      Scotland’s hills and walkways are only accessible to Britnats, no voters and cringers.

    317. Dr Jim says:

      @Shinty

      You don’t hear them complaining when their British army’s tramping all over the hills and blowing up bombs on our beaches

      Of course the British army don’t know when they’re tramping the hills with their pop guns on exercise panting for breath they’re surrounded by Scots watching their every move and laughing our heads off

    318. auld highlander says:

      Shinty @ 11.01

      They would be far better off encircling a certain glass building opposite the Hydro so that the red head can’t get to work.

    319. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Foulds says: 23 February, 2018 at 5:33 pm:

      “Maybe the whole world needs to have a more responsible (and simple) attitude on money and other matters.”

      Well, Ian, i’m not going to argue with you about that but, (there’s always a but), there could be merit in dropping the tie to something like a gold standard for the very good reason that the true wealth of any nation is, beyond anything else, its people.

      It was Little Scotland that led Europe into the European enlightenment that dragged most of the World out of the dark ages. Little Scotland did that by the advanced, (for its time), Scottish education system. Even when I was a schoolboy Scotland led the World and Scots invented just about everything that formed the modern World.

      We led in most sciences including maths, logarithms are a Scottish invention, Dr Norman Dott, a former engineer, invented an operating table for brain surgery, improved now but still much the same as Dott designed it.

      We began the Oil Industry in the Lothians, Telephones and TV and even the humble bicycle and inflatable tyres. The list is endless and still growing. My late wife went to school with Dr Black who developed Beta Blockers. Anyhow that’s enough to make the point of a nations true wealth.

      However there are other things too besides money. Scotland has around 25% of Europe’s wind power and we have the longest shoreline in Europe and perhaps the most vital of all commodities is fresh clean water and we all know how much of that Scotland gets just dropping from the sky.

      You may not know this, Ian, but the very first cross-border electricity grid crossed the border between Scotland and England just as WWII was drawing to a close in 1946. It carried electricity from the old coal fired power station in Portobello across the border into England and Scotland has been a net exporter of electric power ever since.

      The fact is that while Scotland is a net exporter of power, food and fuel the kingdom of England, (that is the rest of the United Kingdom), are net importers of all three.

      But they don’t want you to know that. Trouble is that most Scots either don’t know it yet or they haven’t realised just what it really does mean.

    320. Cactus says:

      The quickening is nearing…

    321. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Rock been at it again, Dave?

      Has he spouted the only one he ever got correct yet?
      You know the one – the one where he claims that the most stupid people on Earth, (or is it in the World?, live in Scotland. Anyone know if Rock resides in Scotland?”

      Let me remind you of what you have been at, again:

      Robert Peffers (19th February – The seven-year ditch):

      “Note right here on Wings how Rock pitches in so bitterly against my comments that point out the truth that everyone in the British Isles are British and that includes the Republic of Ireland.”

      Rock (19th February – The seven-year ditch):

      “How many times do you have to be reminded that it is the political term “British” that matters and is recognised and hated throughout the world?

      No-one gives a damn about the geographical term “British” except pedants and pub bores like yourself.

      The Portuguese are proud to be Portuguese, the Spaniards to be Spanish, not Iberian.

      The Irish stopped being “British” a long time ago and every Scottish independence supporter except yourself can’t wait to stop being “British”.

      You will be considered an utter “numpty” if you announce yourself as “British” after Scotland becomes independent (in 622 years’ time).”

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @gus1940 says: 23 February, 2018 at 8:14 pm:

      “O/T
      According to today’s Daily Heil Helvellyn is Britain’s 3rd. Highest Mountain.”

      Factually, Gus1940, Helvellyn is both England’s and the Lake District’s 3rd. highest Mountain, but it sure as hell is neither Britain’s nor the Kingdom of England’s highest mountain.

    323. Cactus says:

      The nearing is quickening.

    324. KOF says:

      @Shinty 23:01

      Apparently the event has been cancelled. Good job too. Bloody stupid idea in the first place. Did they not remember what happened to Rory the Tory’s plan for that Hadrian’s Wall event before the 2014 referendum? Not only should we learn lessons from our own mistakes, but from our opponent’s too.

    325. Cactus says:

      And again…

      Ra nearing is quickening.

      Go fast.

      SCo.

    326. Rock says:

      Bob Mack,

      “Whilst every mechanism of State is playing dirty we have to play fair. Well, you will lose and Scotland could well lose its freedom for decades.”

      Decades? Centuries more like.

      311 years gone, at least 622 years remaining.

      By which time native Scots will have been outnumbered by English settlers and the oil will have run out.

      Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The most stupid people on earth are in Scotland.

    327. Cactus says:

      Let’s start a riot, Scotland.

      A peaceful one.

      Aye.

      L.

    328. Rock says:

      Macart,

      “England voted for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%.
      Wales also voted for Brexit, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%.
      Scotland backed Remain by 62% to 38%
      Northern Ireland 55.8% voted Remain and 44.2% Leave.

      Mmmm… So two for and two against. How about partners and signatories to the treaty of union? No, that would be 1 – 1. Wait. What? So why is anyone being dragged anywhere against their wishes?”

      The UK is a member of the EU and the UK voted to leave the EU.

      As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is no more than a region of the UK.

      It is not rocket science.

      Instead of spectacularly squandering a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen – Nicola should have seized the opportunity to straight away make it perfectly clear to the people of Scotland that the only choice was to remain part of the UK or part of the EU.

      Scotland has ZERO say on Brexit. Are we too thick to get that into our heads?

    329. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Norman Dott operated on my mother when she was diagnosed with meningitis in the late 40s.

      She was told pregnancy could kill her. She went on to have three of us, spaced 4 and 5 years between, me through the Maryfield portal, my brother at the placie up off Harefield Road and my sister at home, in St Mary’s. Our family joke was that we were all conceived during the Dundee holidqy fortnight.

      It wasn’t until years later that we found out the truth of “planned pregnancy”. It transpired that our Mum was physically ‘fragile’ and shouldn’t really have had me and my siblings at all.

      All hail Norman Dott!

    330. heedtracker says:

      Scotland has ZERO say on Brexit. Are we too thick to get that into our heads?

      At least you’re not blaming the National Rock. Why not talk to the First Minister tweet wise?

      Anyway its all up to the beeb Scotland gimp network what Scotland thinks about it all, innit:D

      Nick Robinson?Verified account
      @bbcnickrobinson
      Follow Follow @bbcnickrobinson

      Will Britain’s future be decided by this committee ?

      Nicola Sturgeon?Verified account
      @NicolaSturgeon

      More Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Nick Robinson

      The fact that decisions with massive implications for Scotland’s future are being taken behind closed doors at Chequers is bad enough… but the fact that the Minister supposed to represent Scotland’s interests in the UK Gov isn’t even invited to the table beggars belief.

      Nicola Sturgeon added

      Viceroy Fluffie’s maybe just got lost on the way to Chequers Rock.

      Tbf, it is what 55% of Scotland voted for, toryboy rule of Scotland as a greater English region, for a gen at least.

    331. heedtracker says:

      Nic Robinson tweeting timeline’s a beeb gimp festival of smug high toryness too,

      Andrew Adonis?Verified account
      @Andrew_Adonis
      Follow Follow @Andrew_Adonis

      BBC on ropes. Sport largely gone to Sky. Quality drama gone to Netflix. BBC news increasingly Brexit, weak & simply Govt press releases. If Netflix set up a sharp, balanced News service, what would be left besides local radio, a desert island & a few good foreign correspondents?

      5:54 AM – 14 Feb 2018

      Nick Robinson
      ?
      Verified account

      @bbcnickrobinson
      Feb 14
      More Nick Robinson Retweeted Andrew Adonis
      Well there’s the fact we’re the most trusted source of news & the world’s best nature programmes (Attenborough) & most popular entertainment (Strictly & Sherlock) & culture (Proms & Glasto) & sport (Wimbledon & the Olympics). Other than that what has the BBC ever done for us?!

      One of the beeb’s most historically blatant liars could at least have the decency to credit all the gimps in Pacific Quay, for their sterling work in destroying Scotland’s nascent democracy.

      But that’s not how beeb gimps operate unfortunately/predictably.

    332. Cactus says:

      Here we go Scotland, on a Saturday morning:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z69S4CFilsk

      When aye haud ye baby…

      To be free is good.

      Set US free.

      Set U free.

      CC5.

      43.

    333. Cactus says:

      The quickening… is nearing…

      Don’t cha know…?

      Hi Saturday ’18.

      Scotland.

    334. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “At least you’re not blaming the National Rock. Why not talk to the First Minister tweet wise?”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, how much say has Scotland had on Brexit so far?

      Surely, Saint Theresa cannot make any move before she has the agreement of the “sovereign” First Minister of Scotland?

      The First Minister is too busy trying to flog a dead horse to talk with me.

    335. Cactus says:

      iScotland.

      To learn.

      You know.

      Hi 21c.

    336. heedtracker says:

      The First Minister is too busy trying to flog a dead horse to talk with me.

      OK Rock, what would you have done then?

      Why you think going back to the past is relevant is very odd. Scots voted No, 2014, 56 SNP MP’s the year after, Brexit the year after that, snap Strong and Stable GE and Scotland gets 13 instead of just the one tory twat MP, we’re a year away from no longer being EU citizens, thanks to English xenophobes, rule Britannia upper class twits and a ferocious tory beeb gimp network that made Nige Farage a household name.

      and you would have done what?

    337. Cactus says:

      Love. Love. Love.

      Scotland.

    338. yesindyref2 says:

      Rock, Baby, take a chill, you need a little time out, a little lovin’, some memories of that disco ball with the music all round, when times were different, so here’s a special for you (and the one probably after it).

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcXHUdSMEvY

      Get that rhythym into your soul and feel the music.

    339. Cactus says:

      FUCK. FUCK. FUCK.

    340. Cactus says:

      How does that make you feel…?

      Get passionate!

      Love X.

    341. Hamish100 says:

      rock I think you are one of the stupid persons in the world. A 1 in a thousand years twat. You are against independence.

    342. Cactus says:

      Here we go.

      Here:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZrdo1PuUvQ

      SO far away today.

      Somewhere wae ra wind.

      Awe ra time.

      Love HOME.

      Love xx.

    343. Petra says:

      Anyone else sick and tired of BritNat supporters invading this site? More so being allowed to do so?

      WORST STILL the absolute ersehol*s who respond to them constantly to keep this all going. One in particular comes to mind, to the point that you actually wonder if he / she is a BritNat supporter too?

      They say ….. and then I say …… and include references to my ”beep gimps’ and so on. What’s a ”beep gimp”, FGS? We ”beep gimp” independence supporters are being conned big time on here, imo.

      Let’s get real. Open your eyes and see what’s going on. There are a number of (long term) people posting on this site who have conned people into thinking that they support independence. They DON’T, imo. LOOK OUT FOR THEM.

      Start posting FACTS on here folks, the TRUTH, and OUT and AVOID those who behave like kids in a playground with the ding dong you SAID… I SAY. It’s not working and totally embarrasing. Just driving people off of this site altogether I would say.

      We hear that more and more people visit this site, however there are no stats informing us of who thinks this site is absolute sh*t or the best thing since baked bread. This site could be invaded with BritNats on a regular basis, but who can differentiate who from who?

      Use this site to get the truth out there and focus on keeping a watchful eye on those who don’t. Identify them, ignore them and more than anything encourage them to move on.

      Time is running out for us and those who continue to encourage BritNat supporters onto this site are in effect BritNat supporters too, imo. If not they are people who are extremely ill-informed or more so want to use this situation to continue to educate or pontificate to us all. The learned, or pontificators, could surely continue to educate us all without supporting the BritNats on here. No matter how smart you think you are, or not, it’s time to waken up, imo. That is if you want Scotland to become Independent or not.

    344. Petra says:

      My last post didn’t appear on here. Maybe it was considered to be absolute rubbish?

      Meanwhile the last few posts since 11:26pm other than KOF, Robert Peffers, Brian, yesindyref2 and Hamish have basically made me decide that it’s time to move on. Made me realise that I’m wasting my precious time on here.

      If this is the calibre of posts that’s supposed to attract people to supporting Independence, I give up.

    345. Cactus says:

      A hey there TJenny and Daisy Walker ~

      Mwah to yee’s girls xx.

      CC5 soon.

    346. stuckdoonhame says:

      A bit o/t but I’m up late since it’s a Friday, watching weird Olympic stuff on the Beeb (sorry hardliners but I don’t feel the need to apologise because 1 my other half loves Match of the Day and 2 I ALWAYS watch Misreporting Scotland to keep tabs on the weird priorities and the outright lies)…. Onywey…
      The weird Olympic stuff – some sort of team slalom with a jump in the middle thing – I notice all of a sudden we are oddly not Team GB BUT – quite consistently – Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the commentary. Where did that come from?

    347. yesindyref2 says:

      Don’t be a stranger Petra, it’s that kind of waiting game.

      Won’t be long now! Well, a few months …

    348. Dr Jim says:

      @Petra

      I’m still up Petra, sometimes things go wrong when you post it happens to everybody from time to time, I use my computer and sometimes I hit a comma instead of a dot in my email or anything really and my post doesn’t appear

      Don’t beat yourself up I don’t think you’re being moderated you never say anything out of order that I’m aware of

    349. Macart says:

      @Petra

      We’ve all had posts go into the void. It happens and it’s frustrating, especially when you’ve spent some time composing what you hope is a good point.

      You’re a name I look for when I’m scrolling through a thread. I enjoy your take on a subject and the obvious effort you put into your posts. We also all need a break sometimes. I suspect we’re going to need all hands on deck in the not too distant future and this site is going to be important as are folk like you who comment with care and patience.

      Don’t go too far. 🙂

    350. twathater says:

      Petra 2.40am don’t you dare going anywhere missus your posts are excellent , but you know sometimes people have to sleep and rest up to face the onslaught of crap that comes daily. Goodnight all independenistas

    351. starlaw says:

      THE northern Ireland is added when its an Irish competitor that’s in action. otherwise its just team GB and NI is just dumped.

    352. Arthur Martin says:

      @ Petra, I don’t post here very often, but I’m in here every day checking posts and sucking up information and knowledge provided by the regulars on here. I consider you to be one of those regulars and when I see your name, I pay attention. It would be a great loss if you stop posting here on Wings, and the Britnat arseholes whose names I ignore and scroll on by would be the winners.
      I bet that I’m one of many, so have a think about it and come back all guns blazing.

    353. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT but I have just watched a really slick BBBBC sporting fella answer complaints about coverage being xenophobic .

      ” people are really interested and passionate about sport and some of our commentators have been involved in the sports hence the great celebrations by our commentators when someone wins .

      Human stories , such as Elise Christies are of great interest to our viewers’

      As for ignoring EVERY other country at the RIO games , well we are all so interested in our own that we really don’t want to see the rest of the world’s best.

      They really are disgusting.

      Nick Robinson should revise his ‘most trusted’ and someone should tell him he is one of the least trusted on a daily basis.

    354. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says: 24 February, 2018 at 12:15 am:

      “It transpired that our Mum was physically ‘fragile’ and shouldn’t really have had me and my siblings at all.
      All hail Norman Dott!”

      Dott also saved my young brother why was diagnosed with problems at birth and given hours to live. He did die comparatively young but made it into his late forties. There was a lady brain surgeon who worked with Dr Dott, a Doctor Anna Herdman, also a brilliant surgeon. You always heard Dr Anna before you saw her. Her brilliance was overshadowed by Dr Dott but a great woman none the less.

    355. Fred says:

      @ Petra, ignore the arseholes & keep on postin!

    356. Tinto Chiel says:

      “We’re the most trusted source of news” says Nick Asbestos Pants, as big a lie as when he said Alex Salmond didn’t answer his question. I suspect it’s just whistling in the dark because the BBC constantly have to attack social media and Fake News, a market they cornered in 1922.

      For anyone wanting a masterclass in BBC hypocrisy/cynicism I recommend The Media Show, usually on when I’m starting to make the tea about half four on a Wednesday (?), where they discuss their impartiality and balance ad infinitum, and journalists from The Guardian get to talk about their professionalism and integrity.

      It used to make me shout rude things at my wee radio: now all I can be bothered to muster is a wry smile and a shake of the head.

      They’re losing it and they know it.

    357. Daisy Walker says:

      Petra,

      I really love your contributions, I may not always agree with some of them, but I respect absolutely what it is you want to achieve.

      I’ve had posts go a missing and then pop up late. A ghost in the machine.

      Take the best care of yourself. And come back soon.

      Meanwhile, we’ve got your back and we’re minding the shop. You take it easy now.

      Not going away, not giving up, Aye Yes for aw that.

    358. Bill Hill says:

      The subsidy myth shot down by the tories themselves

      Hansard 2015

      David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
       

      It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), although it would certainly have been more of a pleasure if he had taken my intervention earlier. I will ask the question that I would have asked then. He made the point that the end of the SNP Members’ amendment says that they want full fiscal autonomy “in the medium term”. Would he care to tell the House when the medium term is? They were talking about a period of 18 months when the referendum was taking place.?
      The hon. Gentleman did say something that was correct: the people have spoken. The people spoke in the general election, and there is absolutely no question but that there is a mandate for the Bill before us. It is absolutely right that Members from both sides of the House move forward with the vow and all it means in a way that shows trust and good faith, and we will do that.
      I will make a number of observations about the fiscal framework, and I would be interested to hear Ministers come back on those points. In his initial remarks, the Secretary of State used the phrase that the solution had to be long lasting and fair, which are big words. My concern is that a solution based on a fiscal framework that is not fair will not be long lasting. I do not believe that the use of the Barnett formula, as it is currently envisaged—even with changes through the devolution of certain revenue-raising powers—is fair on my constituents, or indeed those in Wales or in other parts of England. The flawed Barnett formula settlement is unfair on middle England, and as a result, this whole settlement may unwind.
      Let me say a few things about the Barnett formula on which we need to be clear. The first is that it does not represent a subsidy to Scotland, or it has not over the past 25 to 30 years. I have never said that it did. Broadly speaking, the extra money that Scotland gets—£1,600 per head—has been paid for by the proceeds of Scotland’s oil. We can look at the analysis year by year, but the Institute of Directors analysis has said that that, roughly speaking, has been the case over the past 25 to 30 years. It is not a question of subsidy, but of fairness and of need. When we are allocating public spending across our state, there should be cognisance of where that money is required to be spent to have the biggest impact. Indeed, a progressive party—we are continually told that the SNP is progressive—should surely be at the forefront of wanting a formula based on need.

    359. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 02:40,

      I really hope you don’t give up. We don’t always agree 100%, but your views are always worth considering and your evident committment is inspirational.

      As to your missing posts, the ones I have had are usually down to me mistyping my e-mail address (usually something easily-missed, like a comma instead of a dot). Or maybe there’s a word you like that’s got some “forbidden” word embedded in it.

      After writing a longish message, it can be helpful to copy-and-paste it somewhere else, so if it does go astray, you still have the text to tweak and try again.

    360. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Aye, it needs someone to tell us off, and if we all agreed about everything – how boring!

      It’s a fine day, yes it’s a lovey day, oh it’s a lovely sunny day, it’s a cracking but chilly day, the sun is splitting the sky I love it, I hate the sun I want snow so’s I can ski down the main street go away and leave me alone.

      Generally though I think it’s better if we sharpen our teeth and claws on each other at times, so we can be patient and nice when talking to the NOes and undecideds.

    361. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic. With the Beast from the East cold blast forecast this weekend and next week, remember the people sleeping rough overnight—–take them food and hot drinks.

      Here’s a Livestream Archived Video from last month talking to Denis Curran from Loaves & Fishes,feeding the homeless at St. Stephens,Renfield Street Glasgow.
      29 minutes:

      http://independencelive.net/event/1191

    362. louis.b.argyll says:

      Judging by that first half, looks like the Scottish rugby team are now YES.

    363. yesindyref2 says:

      @louis.b.argyll
      From things said at times, I’m pretty sure a few at least are, yes.

    364. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “OK Rock, what would you have done then?

      Why you think going back to the past is relevant is very odd. Scots voted No, 2014, 56 SNP MP’s the year after, Brexit the year after that, snap Strong and Stable GE and Scotland gets 13 instead of just the one tory twat MP, we’re a year away from no longer being EU citizens, thanks to English xenophobes, rule Britannia upper class twits and a ferocious tory beeb gimp network that made Nige Farage a household name.

      and you would have done what?”

      The moment the Brexit result was declared, I would have made it perfectly clear to the people of Scotland that the only choice was to remain part of the UK or part of the EU.

      We were in a total position of strength, a one in a thousand years golden opportunity.

      The SNP having 56 out of 59 MPs, 50% of the vote, a remain vote in Scotland, the EU’s eyes favourably) on Scotland, the unionist parties without leaders and completely lost.

      Instead of starting to flog a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      That went well didn’t it?

      We now have 13 Tory MPs instead of 1 as you say.

    365. Rock says:

      Petra,

      “My last post didn’t appear on here. Maybe it was considered to be absolute rubbish?

      Meanwhile the last few posts since 11:26pm other than KOF, Robert Peffers, Brian, yesindyref2 and Hamish have basically made me decide that it’s time to move on. Made me realise that I’m wasting my precious time on here.

      If this is the calibre of posts that’s supposed to attract people to supporting Independence, I give up.”

      If you want to come back through the backdoor before the weekend is over, Ian Brotherhood has the keys:

      “Ian Brotherhood,
      11 February, 2017 at 12:59 am

      “Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.

      No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.”

    366. yesindyref2 says:

      Great win at the rugby eh, Rock, are you celebrating?

    367. North chiel says:

      Petra , really hope that you continue to post as yours are very similar to my own line of thinking . Along with Galamcennalth, RJS, yesindyref2 , Breeks and a few others , I feel a connection with yourself and these posters and would certainly be very dismayed to lose your superb contribution. As regards certain posters or “ bad language posting” I simply scroll past these quickly ( I am not a person to waste my valuable time)and don’t respond in any way . Please reconsider, I feel that you could be quite sensitive to certain types of posts , however the genuine people on here far outweigh the “ wasters” .

    368. heedtracker says:

      The moment the Brexit result was declared, I would have made it perfectly clear to the people of Scotland that the only choice was to remain part of the UK or part of the EU.

      We were in a total position of strength, a one in a thousand years golden opportunity.

      So 24 June 2016, First Minister Rock makes it perfectly clear to the people of Scotland that the only choice was to remain part of the UK or part of the EU.

      Then what?

      To be fair, if you mean you would have been declaring indyref2 say in Oct 2016 FM Rock, that may have been what the rolling tory and BBC Scotland We Said No, We Meant NO fury was trying to head off.

      It probably worked too and it’s certainly what got Colonel Ruth her extra 12 tory MP’s but will they last another GE? Probably not.



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