The empty omelette
For much of last year, this site advocated a rational but unpopular position – namely that the SNP, which at the time held the balance of power in the UK parliament, should offer to support Theresa May’s soft-Brexit deal in exchange for the transfer of powers to hold a second independence referendum.
The logic was clear – nothing was ever going to stop Brexit from happening, but passing May’s deal would save the UK from the catastrophe of a no-deal. Everyone would be a winner – England and Wales would get what they voted for, Remain-voting Northern Ireland would get special terms that kept it in the EU in all but name, and Scotland would get the chance to stay in the EU as an independent nation.
“But no!”, everyone screamed at us. “We can’t possibly do any sort of deal with the Tories or we’d be electorally crucified and lose the referendum, you idiots!”
Record scratch, jump-cut to the present day.
[Pause for long, weary sigh.]
Of course, now it doesn’t actually matter what the SNP vote for. Instead of offering the Tories a deal which would have been the best deliverable outcome for every part of the UK, secured an indyref and kept May’s government a weak minority one with only a couple more years to run, the SNP urged a general election which gave Boris Johnson a comfortable majority until 2025 and ensured that he can pass, or block, any Brexit deal he chooses.
Sturgeon’s party are now in a lose-lose situation. If they vote against any last-minute deal that might arise, they’ll be de facto voting for no deal. If they vote for a deal, on the grounds that it’ll be the lesser of two evils, they’ll be doing the thing we were told was political suicide. And whichever way they vote won’t make any difference anyway, making them look feeble, powerless and irrelevant at Westminster (entirely accurately).
And more to the point, of course, we won’t have a referendum.
There was no guarantee that May would have accepted such an offer in 2019. And it would have been a political risk. But after losing her majority in 2017 she’d undergone two years of desperate torture and it was within the SNP’s power to adopt a brave, principled and totally defensible position that was in the interests of everyone in the UK and challenge the Tories to refuse it.
(We simply don’t believe independence supporters would have changed their minds in fury and voted No because they’d, er, been given a referendum.)
Instead they bottled it out of fear of bad headlines (as if they don’t get bad headlines every day), and history has played out with the tragic inevitability that all sane people knew it would the minute Boris Johnson ousted May and was gifted his election.
Because of that cowardice, Scotland now faces the worst of all possible worlds – out of the EU, with no deal, no referendum, and a Tory government with a big majority that’s clearly intent on ripping the heart out of devolution and has four years to do it in.
We did warn you, folks. Over and over again. Maybe one day people will listen to us.
link to twitter.com
Just posted this in an older thread, but fits here too.
Sturgeon whining on about the terrible thing that’s now about to happen, which she was elected to prevent, and has had 6 years to do it.
She is USELESS.
I totally agree Stu.
I am winding down from activism for SNP, and even the YES Movement.
Need to focus on survival for a couple of years.
All credit to you for continuing the blogging, investigative journalism on Indy movement and encouraging true supporters.
May more join the struggle.
The actions of NS are not coincidence but deliberate – designed & calculated to destroy our Independence & the SNP.
I was, and still am enraged by the fact the SNP spent all that time and energy trying to save England from getting what England voted for. Scotland nah, you’ll keep, you’re a captive audience. I hope the six word hashtag showed them just a bit, we ain’t that captive audience any longer.
Breeks says ‘ She is useless !!
She is a dream to the Tories, 6 years of power, highest No of Mps, multiple mandates and she achieved nothing. She isn’t useless to them, it’s a dream appointment knowing that she is is going to do sweet fanny Adams except go Blah, Blah, Blah. She being in power is more important to the Tories than having 1 decent Mp in Scotland!!
A perfect summation Stuart. Nicola Sturgeon is brain-dead to reality, a coward and a charlatan.
She needs to go. Now!
I concur.
We desperately need someone in Holyrood to stand up to the murrells. For independence, for Scotland and for the morale of those remaining in the SNP.
Dear SNP voters/supporters/members…
In the words of John Lydon:
“Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?”
‘Cause I sure as hell do!
@Stu,
Do you do tea leaf readings of Crystal ball and Tarot?
You were right.
We have been disarmed by our own side and the great expectations we had from the confident Nicola have withered like Ms Favershams gown.
It was all show and bluster with no substance. How foolish were most of us to trust them?
I really have no words to describe how I feel. It is almost akin to grief. I want to be happy about the prospects of Indy, but I don’t know how. Will it ever come back?
Nicola was the hare who turned into the tortoise. Mind you, watching such a Chief Executive as Murrell in action the other day drove home to me the shallowness of talent attempting to lead us from this Union.
Pick ourselves up and start again.
Just out of curiosity would SNP support for a soft Brexit made a difference numbers wise? A soft brexit would of meant All ERG and some labour MPs not supporting it.
Can’t imagine May agreeing to a deal she would of lost even more support from her MPs
May might have accepted an SNP offer but nothing to stop her subsequently saying, “Now is not the time..” This is the Tories we’re talking about!!
“May might have accepted an SNP offer but nothing to stop her subsequently saying, “Now is not the time..” This is the Tories we’re talking about!!”
In which case we can’t trust them with a Section 30 now either. Who’s to say they’d respect a Yes vote? In which case we might as well give up because the whole thing’s hopeless.
I don’t disagree with the article above…
However there are 2x advantages of delaying IndyRef2
1) A precedent has now been set for NI border which can be applied to Scotland. Anyone who says we need to choose between EU and UK markets is a liar
2) No deal brexit is going to be a shambles…. On January 1st there will no denying that independence is Scotlands only sane option.
Only by sticking together will Scotland eventually get its independence…
A more relevant point I think, is that Sturgeon doesn’t want independence, so the SNP under her and Murrell were never going to agree with anyone, even Old Nick himself, in a trade off for an independence referendum.
No in Sturgeon/Murrell playbook it was far better to let May keep on digging herself deeper into the hole than allow any attempt to get Scotland out of its hole, the union.
Isn’t it fair to say that Sturgeon has only begun to speak regularly about Scottish independence because a Scottish election is approaching.
Meanwhile on another blog we have the re_enactment of Monty Pythons Black Knight lying there limbless proclaiming the fight is almost won. “Tis but a flesh wound”.
Politics is the art of the possible, Rev, so, you were and are right. We are now up a creek without a paddle to coin a cliche, and it might yet cost us our independence, too because those polls are no cast-iron guarantee of success on the day – if that day ever comes. I’m not even sure now if full membership of the EU is the rational choice for Scotland, if EFTA or some other grouping would better suit us. Whatever, we have missed the boat and must strive now to get independence by another route because we are not getting a S30 Order any time soon.
@Doug Bryce,
Johnson has those covered Doug, and mainly through the Brexit legislation and Internal Markets Bill. Also due is the Bill giving the Executive powers to make decisions without reference to Parliament.
It’s so blatant it cannot be a mistake or explained away as ineptitude.
Let’s just face it, we’ve been screwed.
Question is what can we do about it?
Other than coming on wings and bleating about the injustice.
Cassandra.
I found watching Peter Murrell give evidence very revealing. He’s absolutely hopeless, not even bright enough to lie with flair or conviction. He appeared almost catatonic. How disappointing to discover he’s the wee man from behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.
OT but people seem to be talking about europe…
Just a question for those in the know.
Assuming (as seems likely) we get no deal (and the UK has already left the EU 10 1/2 months ago), and (as seems unlikely) Scotland gets granted a referendum, votes to leave, becomes an internationally recognised sovereign nation, and applies to join the EU having fulfilled the following the rules of law condition, would Scotland expect to be a net contributor to EU funds or net recipient of funds?
aulbea1 says:
11 December, 2020 at 1:17 pm
The actions of NS are not coincidence but deliberate – designed & calculated to destroy our Independence & the SNP.
So why and whom is she working for?
What hold have they??
The Reverend Stuart “Cassandra” Campbell — we salute you. Again.
@Sharny Dubs,
Wings is a central point for those who are becoming aware..
That is crucial. They got the truth here and are not spoon fed SNP mythology. Just facts.
Johnson surely has us right where he wants us for now, but if we can unite and face him then we still have a chance.
The absolute priority though if we can get to the Holyrood elections is to put in place those who are determined to put Independence front and centre.
In my opinion it provides more evidence of one of NS’s fatal flaws, which is her desire to be approved of by those in positions of “cultural authority”.
As stated, doing a deal with May would have a) averted the disaster we are currently facing, and b) have given Sturgeon a chance to exploit leverage. But it would also have brought obloquy from the Guardian and liberal Twitter, and a consistent theme of NS’s leadership has been a need to be the darling of such people. I’ll bet she never even considered it.
(Incidentally, I also predicted Clinton would lose on the day she announced her candidacy, and that Trump would win on the day he announced his!)
Every man/woman on the street knew a No-Deal was the only game in town so why not Nicola? Now she’s saying she thinks Boris might be planning for No-Deal, with 3 weeks to go! No sh** Sherlock! The Tory Donors are going to make Billions crashing the pound then buying liquidated assets for pennies.
Surely nobody is that incompetent? I struggle to believe that Nicola is not in on this. You couldn’t pay enough money for this kind of service to preserve the Union and shaft Scotland.
@Richard
Yes the third time May tried to get her vote through the commons the 35 SNP MPs voting the other way and it would have passed.
NS has to go, but my worry is she will anoint a terrible replacement ie Angus Robertson
FFS Get her out! Get the ("Tractor" - Ed)s out!
Oddly, my online excitement is no longer independence (I’ve long-ago lost faith in that achievable goal being achieved any time soon) but seeing the unravelling of the Murrells, their secretive gang, and their skewed priorities. That’s what keeps me going – and why wouldn’t it?
Once all of the above are right off the sheet, once we have a genuine leader in place, *then* we’ll concentrate on getting the hell out of this union.
Thanks for all your dedication, passion and clearly very hard work, Stu.
I think the only thing to do now is to see what a no deal Brexit is actually like for Scotland and recordinate the independence movement accordingly. I know that isn’t optimistic but what are the alternatives now?
SNP are not going to run 2021 election as a de-facto surrogate indy ref. We have no chance in hell of getting a referendum. And a no deal Brexit is going to happen.
We are going to need to completely re-evaluate everything about our movement. The arguments for independence have changed dramatically. We need new tactics, new literature, new parties, new everything. Rip it up and start again.
Anyone got any better ideas?
That old Rory Bremner column you posted the link for looks even better now!
You must have made a fortune at the bookies over the years. A guy in Glasgow put a serious bet(£50K I think) on the 2015 election and won big. Maybe he was a follower of yours 🙂
Will be waiting for your prediction at next election.
Regards your being listened to: if you’re not part of the Cult system they never will. (Unless you’re part of the system in some way but I don’t think you’re knowingly working with them).
The 2021 Holyrood elections if they take p!ace, MUST absolutely be declared a plebescite for Independence by those party’s who support Indy. This must be in their manifesto.
This may be just leverage enough to let Westminster grant a referendum even though they refuse to accept the plebiscite vote of the election
Otherwise____. It’s curtains.
Oh and I watched the CNN coverage. I haven’t totally calmed down from it. Sturgeon doesn’t even think like a Scot Nat.
Tbf May wouldn’t have gone for it – and even if she did – BawJaws wouldn’t honour it (neither would any Tory) but snp would have been crucified. People have had the last few years to see exactly what Tories are like – that wouldn’t have happened to this extent if snp had voted for the deal. Like it or not – more people will want to leave uk now….which is the end goal. No point having a referendum unless you know you have enough folk to win!
Stu Campbell
I see your point but, the correct path to take was the international legal route: exercising Scottish national sovereignty.
Respecting that Scotland’s sovereign people voted to Remain in the EU. No deals, nothing.
Either the WM Union parliament and EU respected Scotland’s sovereign will or the Union Parliament is no longer given jurisdiction over Scotland, as the UK Union is over. Treaty of Union abolished / resiled.
It’s too late to stay in the EU but we could stay regulatory aligned if Scotland’s political class upheld that UK Parliament has failed to respect the democratic will of the people of Scotland and the Treaty was resiled ASAP.
But, they won’t. Scotland’s politicians are subservient craven moneygrubbers.
Once again, Rev, a brilliant summation of the shambles we’re in. Totally depressing and my local is closed due to COVID restrictions so I can’t even go out and drown my sorrows.
No point having enough folk to win if you can’t have a referendum either.
Re the title , The empty omelette .
The Snp and Nicola Sturgeon didn’t even crack an egg open to try and make a omelette . LOL
Bob Mack @2.33
Agree a plebiscite election is the only way forward before Bojo’s crew dismantle Holyrood.
Its like living through a Greek tragedy.
Not everyone was against a deal with the Tories. Those that were I openly call idiots who put petty politics before things that matter. This is a recurring theme in Scottish politics.
About 90% of the people that comment on this website couldn’t see past their loyalty and love of Nicola just two years ago, well after it was obvious she was a total fraud. Here we all are, blaming others. I think it’s time for some self-reflection.
The big difference now is that the Tories probably won’t need SNP support to get a deal over the line. We are screwed either way; it’s going to be a hard brexit or no deal.
Looking back, you might say that we have had a few opportunities to force the issue on indyref2 since the Brexit vote. I can count at least 3 or 4. It’s possible we have one last chance but that window is closing with every day that passes and I expect blind stupidity and loyalty to the SNP is going to get in the way again, as it has repeatedly over the last few years.
Unless Nicola is replaced in the next few weeks, we can say with certainty that indyref2 will not take place for a minimum of 5 to 10 years. That is to say, never.
Deal with that, loyal little servants.
I guess everyone realises the hostage situation we are in
We can’t vote for any Unionist Party
We presently can’t remove support from the only party who might be in a position to offer Indy ref 2
We can’t so far make the management of the SNP do what we all thought was the whole idea of a Independence Party namely Independence
So can the hostages in this situation ” US ” Independence supporters actually do anything ? Well for the time being we are fkd , withdraw support , the Unionists Crow look no support , continue support and hope the management listens , short of time , and really short of patience .
Whether it was by accident or design we are boxed in , the Johnson government can and probably will strangle Holyrood , I believe we need to step away from defending that construct of the English government leave them to it and pursue the International route, a International Treaty the Acts of Union is not a prison sentence we can leave and leave without any permission from England in fact it’s written in the UN Charter that the other party to any agreement is prohibited from interfering with the proceedings.
Why oh Why Nicola Sturgeon is pursuing this blind Ally approach of a section 30 where we have to ask permission is anyone’s guess , it’s not as she says ” The Gold Standard ” its a Trap to console unionist fears and making us dance to their tune.
Can’t fault the logic.
However, I have believed right from day one the intention was always no deal. Therefore May’s govt just the same as Johnson’s would have found a way to scupper any deal.
But it still would have been politically expedient to make the offer even if that was the case.
“Just out of curiosity would SNP support for a soft Brexit made a difference numbers wise?”
In the 2017-19 Parliament, Tory+SNP alone would have been 352 votes, a comfortable majority of over 50. You can then argue the toss about the ERG and the DUP etc and how many of them would have rebelled/supported the deal, but it would certainly have been a pretty commanding voting bloc, especially given that a good number of Labour MPs would have voted for the deal too.
“However, I have believed right from day one the intention was always no deal. Therefore May’s govt just the same as Johnson’s would have found a way to scupper any deal.”
I think that was Johnson’s intention all along. I don’t believe it was May’s. She was, let’s remember, a Remainer.
“I see your point but, the correct path to take was the international legal route: exercising Scottish national sovereignty.”
Sorry, I have no idea what you actually mean by that. Unilaterally revoke the Treaty Of Union? On what democratic basis? When did the electorate vote for that?
The dirt that darker forces have on the murrells will probably be released under a FOI in 30yrs time, when civil servants will say it was justified in saving the ‘union’.
A plebiscite election in May 2021 is now best option.
Worked for Irish in 1918.
Sorry Rev, I really do wish this strategy could’ve worked but as I said back then when you first brought it up, I just can’t see it. I think you seriously underestimate the political damage doing a deal with the tories does. Not only would it have been portrayed as doing a deal with the devil but also selling out our “lefty” remain voting English friends down the river. The impact of those two things alone would’ve been too much and would’ve put such a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.
I generally find it hard to disagree with you on most things Rev, but on this I really think you’ve not thought through how it’d look to the Scottish public and how it’d be inevitably portrayed in the UK media.
Doing a deal with the tories, being seen as conniving backstabbing bastards by helping the tories get their agenda over the line and “betraying” remain voters. I mean at the end of the day people want to feel like they’re doing the good and right thing, especially the kind of people who vote for the SNP. Do you really think the majority of Scottish people would be willing to sell a part of their soul and get covered in shit just to edge across the line to Independence? I really don’t think so, I find it such an unrealistic an idea, as much as I wish (like you) it wasn’t.
Ach, that does it for me. Card carrying member of the SNP for many a year, canvassing and leafletting in the pishing rain and snow.
But this is the final act of betrayal. The membership card goes in the bucket.
What is the SNP without 2 important USPs?: Independence (back burner forever); Brexit (they called them collaborators in WW2).
-Dyock-
You are being too squeamish and proper for your own good. Doing a deal with May would have given us a second referendum, and would have given the rest of the UK a softer Brexit. It would have been a prudent, responsible act of statesmanship.
Much as I detest the Tories, not all independence supporters are hereditary left-wingers, and we find this tribalism baffling.
@Dyock,
Looking at it today what would we have lost? Support?
Independence is by passing the SNP in any event. It is becoming the focus of new political groups instead.
Under your thinking the English have got what they wanted anyway without sacrifice to the referendum debate.
Besides I think you conflate two things. Your reasoning is that the SNP is Independence and I’m no longer sure that they are synonomous with that in people’s eyes in any event. People who wanted European rights would have voted for the SNP purely to maintain those rights and for that reason only ,if the SNP had acted decisively to offer them that choice.
May 2021 is last chance saloon.
How about a petition to demand a plebiscite election on independence?
I doubt very much, Treeza would have accepted sic an offer in the first instance, and, had that offer been made (and refused,as I think likely), it would have been held like a gun (another gun), to Sturgeons head, even in hindsight i still can’t agree it would have made sense, and, if sic an offer had been accepted, well, again, in hindsight, you could bet the farm it wouldn’t have been honoured.
I remember well when WOS first mooted the idea, I didn’t like it then, and see no reason to change my opinion.
The capitalist Great Reset doesn’t do ‘localism’ or ‘national sovereignty’ so Sturgeon may fancy a job on the globalist stage. After all she has managed to sing every note on the ‘pandemic crisis’ hymn sheet.
The sooner she climbs aboard the gravy train to her desired destination the better for plainly Independence for Scotland is no longer a tune she recognizes.
“I remember well when WOS first mooted the idea, I didn’t like it then, and see no reason to change my opinion.”
So you haven’t been watching the news for the last 12 months, and didn’t bother to read the story at the start of the article? Okay.
“Sorry Rev, I really do wish this strategy could’ve worked but as I said back then when you first brought it up, I just can’t see it. I think you seriously underestimate the political damage doing a deal with the tories does. Not only would it have been portrayed as doing a deal with the devil but also selling out our “lefty” remain voting English friends down the river. The impact of those two things alone would’ve been too much and would’ve put such a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.
I generally find it hard to disagree with you on most things Rev, but on this I really think you’ve not thought through how it’d look to the Scottish public and how it’d be inevitably portrayed in the UK media.”
This is SUCH a terrible argument.
(1) The SNP get battered all day every day in the media anyway. It doesn’t seem to have done them any harm in the last 13 years. They’re currently more than TWENTY points higher in the polls than they were when they first got elected in 2007.
(2) It wouldn’t have been a betrayal of the English left. The English left is split on Brexit, and it would have been saving them from the no-deal catastrophe that’s about to happen.
(3) The SNP worked with the Tories to pass every Holyrood budget from 2007-2011, and Labour constantly screamed about it. The SNP then won a massive landslide. The electorate isn’t as tribal as politics nerds are. They want politicians to get on with stuff in a sensible and practical way and they generally vote for the ones they think do so in the most grownup way, not the ones on the intolerant fundamentalist extremes.
(4) Would YOU have voted No in a referendum that came about by passing a soft Brexit deal? If not, why do you assume anyone else would?
But what isn’t in any doubt whatsoever is that by NOT pursuing that plan, we’re now in the worst possible position. How could it have been any worse?
“Unilaterally revoke the Treaty Of Union? On what democratic basis? When did the electorate vote for that?”
Westminster has trashed the treaty. What is there to vote on?
Ok we could have a referendum with the options “Should Scotland remain an independent county?/Should the Scottish Government seek to negotiate a new union treaty?”
“Westminster has trashed the treaty. What is there to vote on?”
When your marriage breaks down you still have to actually go and get a divorce. You can’t just marry someone else.
“Ok we could have a referendum with the options “Should Scotland remain an independent county?/Should the Scottish Government seek to negotiate a new union treaty?””
You seem to have missed a small but quite key matter in terms of whether we’re empowered to have a referendum or not.
I think what everyone is missing is this. SNP support May and get the deal across the line. What happens then ? Political chaos. The deal is done but Imagine Westminster trying to cope with those who opposed May and eventually unseated her. That deal would made the Boston tea party look like a picnic.
The SNP would have alienated the English public in one fell swoop. Remember the opinion polls posted saying losing Scotland was a price worth meaningful get Brexit done? Especially a no deal Brexit.
It was an opportunity missed.
Kezia Dugstail, First Minister. I actually laughed out loud incredulously at that.
“I think what everyone is missing is this. SNP support May and get the deal across the line. What happens then ? Political chaos.”
So? You think what’s happening now isn’t chaos?
“The SNP would have alienated the English public in one fell swoop.”
Votes the SNP gets from the English public: 0. So who gives a fuck?
How can we believe you when Pete Wishart tells us that you’re vile?
MaggieC mentioned Iain Lawson’s latest blog, earlier today.
He provides an excellent summary of the Inquiry’s position following Murrell’s (first?) appearance.
‘As the false narrative is shredded, fewer and fewer accomplices want to stick their necks out further than they are already exposed, so a pandemic of amnesia is everywhere as witnesses rush back to change their sworn evidence as further evidence from others exposes and makes extremely vulnerable their own positions.’
‘Leslie Evans in particular looks increasing vulnerable, despite her best efforts to distance herself from the action, the evidence each day puts her closer and closer to the very centre of the plot.’
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
In December 1918 Sinn Fein got 46.95% of votes and 69.5% of seats in a plebiscite election on independence.(Compares against recent SNP results).
They then held their first parliament meeting in January 1919 and withdrew from Westminster because they were not part of England.
In 1920 they were revisited by our neighbours version of democracy.
link to rte.ie
If the SNP does not make the 2011 election a plebiscite on indy, then the Yes movement should make it a plebiscite on the SNP — or, rather, a vote of no confidence in the SNP.
Does anyone really think the SNP will ever hold an indyref2? They have spent all the money anyway. Our money. Watching PM give evidence to the committee, do you really think such a horrible person is capable of doing anything except undermine people and try and get them falsely imprisoned?
The Yes movement should show a vote of no confidence in the SNP by writing messages on the ballot papers. The only thing that will make the SNP do ANYTHING is the thought of losing their jobs.
@Stu,
It’s important because in one fell swoop the SNP could have claimed to at least temporarily be maintining European citizenship under Mrs Mays deal with the clarion call of how long that may last would be dependant on Indy. If May had agreed to a referendum as requested.
This would have been very badly received by the English voting public. I envisage they would have been demanding Scotland should have no say in what they wanted.
Alienated yes, but in a better position to show that as far as the English public goes we are very expendable.
There is always another way to skin a cat.
Dyock @ 3:19pm:
That’s a unionist argument and should be rejected every time it’s raised, i.e. about ‘selling other lefty folk down the river’.
If there are 100 folk in a shitty situation, e.g. the status quo, and 50 of them have a chance to change things for the better, is it best if:
i) 50 go on and take that chance at something better;
ii) they decide not to, out of solidarity with those that are ‘stuck’, and 0 end up with a chance at something better?
If you answer ii, you’re an eejit.
Folk saying ‘we need to show solidaritteeeeee’ are arguing that it better if we all suffer together instead of some trying for better. They’re the ones being selfish.
In one of Bill Bryson’s books (I forget which) Bill stated that he believed that British socialists (for which read Labour and their friends) seemed not to see their aim to be to raise everyone up equally but to make sure everyone was equally ‘poor and lowly’ or words to that effect.
I have read the book many times and always felt Bill was being a bit of an old right winger but he’s actually right when you consider it through the prism of Scots Indy – there are a set of people out there arguing that Scots should not strive for better but should instead sit in the shitty mucky puddle that is the UK so we can all equally suffer at its hands.
I, for one, will not wear it.
-Johnny Martin-
Well said.
Given that the SNP is in such disarray – NEC infiltration (now mostly disentangled), GRA proving drastically unpopular, accounts not remotely transparent, the First Minister and her husband embroiled in a horrific plot (and on the cusp of ignominy) and notwithstanding a scandalous lack of an independence plan for Brexit refuge etc, etc – I’m now wondering, what’s the next step for Cherry and the rest of those watching the spectacular crumbling of this Party? How long will they wait in the wings before acting for the greater good? I mean, it’s apparent Sturgeon’s lost the plot, what more does it take?
Cherry’s a smart cookie; I reckon she could do the one thing the whole country’s waited so very patiently for, and folk would rightly buy into – announce her intention to guarantee an independence referendum within a year of her election as leader of the SNP, or as the leader of her new pro-independence Party. We can’t sit-by while the media wrap the current incumbent in cotton wool, and while that incumbent has zero intention of a Ref, we need to have a plan (C?)
Furthermore, when Sturgeon’s about out on her arse and is grimly hanging-on, who* believes she’ll be in any position to lead this country? Cherry and the honest members of this Party need to show the way.
*Who? Here’s who: link to twitter.com
All of the people liking this blinkered, ill-informed tweet – the sand-headers – will defend Sturgeon while Johnson’s stealing the very food from their plates. These well-intended but maddeningly blinkered folk hold Sturgeon above common sense, the SNP above independence, their sense of divine matriarchy above the passage of time when nothing is changed in that time.
Joanna Cherry, we need you, now.
The big problem with the ‘do a deal with May’ idea was not the bad headlines that would inevitably ensue. For me, the problem was the section 30 process. It looks like a good deal if you only think as far as getting a referendum out of it. It doesn’t look so good when you take account of the fact that the only referendum we’d get would be one the British state could sabotage.
If you are still talking about asking for a Section 30 order then you are not talking about restoring Scotland’s independence. Unless you are naive enough to suppose a Section 30 referendum would be free and fair.
“When your marriage breaks down you still have to actually go and get a divorce.”
So apply to the international marriage court at the UN for a divorce on grounds of unreasonable behaviour and irreversible breakdown. I’m confident the decree nisi will be in the post shortly.
@Peter Bell,
The last one showed us they are not free and fair, but at least we got one.
“You seem to have missed a small but quite key matter in terms of whether we’re empowered to have a referendum or not.”
If the treaty is a dead parrot, then the two kingdoms revert to their previous status, in which case we’d be as empowered as any other independent nation.
Everybody is trying to be clever and game everything.
Peter Bell: “If you are still talking about asking for a Section 30 order then you are not talking about restoring Scotland’s independence.”
Did you say that prior to 2014?
A section 30, whether we like it or not, is the path of last resistance and simplest route to independence open to us. If you don’t acknowledge that, you are on a different planet.
First thing required is a nationalist to lead the SNP again. Sturgeon is not one, and I doubt she ever was. She has in the past talked of how she was a member of CND for two years before joining the SNP. I think it was a case of a personally ambitious young person joining a party, any party.
Yes, you did warn us – no doubt and as usual you are and were bang on the money. However, some key folk were (still) not listening and the rest, well, you were preaching to the converted.
So, what now?
Bob Mack, you said this twice which is why I’m responding to it: “ This would have been very badly received by the English voting public.”
It’s an imbecilic point. Stupid. What part of “who gives a fuck what the English voting public think?” is it that you’re struggling with?
@Hatuey,
I’m not struggling with any of it, but then I tend to think for myself.
At the time Rev, I think most of us would have agreed with you, but Sturgeon was still flavour of the month, and was given last chance after last chance by us gullable eejits.
Until our very own lightbulb moment, when she gave that speech at the beginning of this year.
Had Scotland voted Yes in 2014, it would have needed to have new powers in place before it became an independent country. aAlso, the UK would have had to disentangle itself from the EU before the dissolution of the Union could begin. While things might change at the last minute, I have my fingers and toes crossed there is ‘no deal’ and Scotland moves another step closer to invoking part 5 of Article 50.
Why are The voting public important in any country I wonder ?
Why are 55% of Unionists important in this country ?
Why is a population of voters 10 times the size of our own important when they see us as part of their UK?
All very mysterious
You can’t be that dim surely.
.
-Albert Herring-
The UN where Britain and its American ally have the right to veto any decision? That would be like applying for a divorce from a court where your own spouse is the judge- and doesn’t want you to divorce them.
-Bob Mack-
I am also a little confused as to your point. Rather than say “you can’t be that stupid”, perhaps you could explain it for the benefit of us slow learners? Meant sincerely!
Stu, please think about setting up and heading a list party in time for May. You’re getting a lot of traffic these days, probably due to being on the money consistently. You seem to have the disposition to deal with Holyrood – you certainly have the skill set. Dae it man!
“It’s important because in one fell swoop the SNP could have claimed to at least temporarily be maintining European citizenship under Mrs Mays deal with the clarion call of how long that may last would be dependant on Indy. If May had agreed to a referendum as requested.
This would have been very badly received by the English voting public. I envisage they would have been demanding Scotland should have no say in what they wanted.”
I have no clue what any of that is supposed to mean. It makes no sense.
“If the treaty is a dead parrot, then the two kingdoms revert to their previous status, in which case we’d be as empowered as any other independent nation.”
I’m sure this is a lovely dream, but it’s not how the world actually works.
Nicola Sturgeon mind is trapped in a cul de sac and her futile attempts at a section 30 order will never be given and Sturgeon is incapable of any other choice than the cul de sac she placed her self in.
“If you are still talking about asking for a Section 30 order then you are not talking about restoring Scotland’s independence. Unless you are naive enough to suppose a Section 30 referendum would be free and fair.”
The last one was. It would be up to us to ensure a second one was too.
A timely reflection on what might have been Stu, had the SNP elite focused more on Scotland’s real priority – independence – instead of all the other PC nonsense and scheming.
The SNP elite clearly have no idea on strategy or realpolitik. They also seem unwilling or incapable of playing hardball with a colonial oppressor who treats us Scots like shite. Perhaps this is down to an uber-sensitive middle class mentality of MPs and MSPs – i.e. thay’re jist nae hard enough fowk tae mak indy happen at aw.
Also worth reflecting on Ms Cherry’s preoccupation with legally testing the sovereignty of Westminster MP’s whilst ignoring any such testing of the sovereignty of a majority of Scotland’s MP’s to revoke the ToU.
@A Person,
Sorry. The point is this . We know that the English public went with the populist vote regarding Brexit. We know that because Farage was already gaining in popularity with his Brexit strategy which forced the Tories down the dog whistle route in order to keep their vote. They stole his clothes
In doing so they picked up many areas previously only held by Labour
Imagine now that Scottish MPs denied them that Brexit. What would happen? Would the English public just accept it given the inevitable media storm about us denying them ?. The publicity and the backlash go on and on. Politicians would inevitably play the “Scots” card as a means of keeping their seat.
Ok the English don’t have a vote here, but in the last referendum 55% of Scots felt themselves. to be part of the United Kingdom.
The backlash against Scots would not differentiate between them and me and The end result would eventually be the 55% feeling alienated and despised by the very people they want to remain part of.
I can just imagine the Daily Mail the Express and the rest would have been in meltdown.
Three weeks till Scotland is out the EU and major league asshole Sturgeon is tweeting about football and Xmas cards. How did this person, ambitious and false, rise to play such a disastrous role in our national story?
If the SNP had done that deal with Terrible May, as soon as it was through, the tories would have renegade – probably in a mealmoothed way. Egg all over the SNP’s faces and nothing achieved.
And at that time support for Indy was still below 50%.
Joanna Cherry’s legal activities – within the WM system – acting on behalf of Scotland – could be seen to have been attempting to play an honest hand, within the British System (I’m trying to put my No Voter/EU Remainer Glasses on, and see it from their perspective).
What actions did Labour and the Lib Dems do to stand up for Democracy (WM style) during illegal Prorogation?
And now, where are we? Almost a year into Covid, a year of fear and upheaval, and days from Brexshit – with Boris at the wheel.
With polls – however much possibly massaged – now consistently in mid 50% range (sorry, not like me to shout ‘LOOK AT THE POLLS’ – you can all smack me later) – but it is a different fallow ground compared to 2 years ago.
And the leader of the SNP, the First Minister of Scotland – on seeing the deal NI has obtained – is publicly considering supporting Boris’ shitty Brexit Deal. If our Government signs up to that – we will have no legal, or political leg to stand on – with regards to any type of grounds for Referendum.
This is absolutely , 100% a Betrayal. All those Mandates.
The GRA Wokie stuff could always be portrayed as heartfelt and a matter of conscience. Even though its anti female and a vote loser.
The Alex Salmond affair could always be argued – he said, she said, no one really knows the full details, it wasn’t her, it was the civil service wot done it.
The Wheesht for Indy, S30 order, gradualist approach could always be argued as sincere – if possibly the wrong tactic.
The lack of anything resembling active campaigning for Indy – could be hidden behind Covid concerns.
This – proposed vote in approval of some shitty Tory Brexit deal – and rubber stamp it at Westminster. This is the plainest example of a sell out any of us will ever see.
NICOLA STURGEON IS A T R A C T O R
-Bob Mack-
But if we made a deal with May to pass soft Brexit, that would still be Brexit. So we would be giving a majority of English and Welsh folk what they want.
Further, by it being soft Brexit, many Remainers would be relieved. So passing soft Brexit would do Scotland’s image in England very little harm- and I’m still not really sure how important that is anyway.
If there was some kind of a backlash, I feel that it would be directed at the SNP rather than Scots as a whole. If it was directed at Scots as a whole, it would drive many of the unionist 55% into the Yes camp.
I’m just not sure what downside there really is here.
She may be useless or cautious, but save some energy to fight those evil bastards in Westminster, they are coming for us January 1st 2021.
-Daisy Walker-
In the last parliament the Tories lacked a majority and the SNP held the balance of power. They could have threatened to instal Corbyn as PM if May failed to protect an indyref. Or they could have passed a Bill which required the holding of an indyref for the EU deal to take effect. There is nothing to say this could not happen.
From Gordon Dangerfield’s blog ,
SEX AND GENDER: A REQUEST FOR CLARITY ,
“ I’ve just sent the following letter by email to SNP Councillor Mhairi Hunter who is, I understand, a close confidante of the First Minister. I’ll let readers of this blog know if I get a response, which I promise to publish here in full. “
link to gordondangerfield.com
@A Person,
It’s psychology. We think the Tories represent the bulk of English opinion because they were elected ,ergo the SNP would be seen to represent Scottish opinion in the same way.
Ordinary folk don’t often differentiate.
@Bob Mack
Just to let you know that subtlety wasn’t lost on everyone reading it!
@A ,Person
We gave the English What they wanted but we would still have a referendum to show for it.
@mr thms
What has Article 50 got to do with anything when we are already out of the EU?
Presumably mr thms means reapplication under Article 49, which will be quite painful
What do you do when your house is riddled with termites,woodworm and dryrot? Keep trying to treat them with environmental things or tear the whole thing down and build it better in the future?
I know what my preference is ,but there again I’m one of the people that would rather cut off my arm and solve the pain than keep treating it with the hope it would get better sometime.
As far as I’m concerned there is no way that the SNP can be returned to what it started as , it is rotten past redemption.
@John Jones,
You illustrate my point up thread. The whole of the SNP is not bad. It is just in the main the hierarchy who have allowed this rot or indeed encouraged it. Remove the fitting plan is and not the whole hull of the ship.
Remove the rotten planks.
My I pad is about to expire I think. Predicatext is going wild.
-Bob Mack-
Yes, that’s what I mean too! Give England what it wants- Brexit, but a soft version- and get an indyref out of it. Even if the indyref fails, at least Brexit will not be too bad for Scotland. Currently we have no indyref and no-deal Brexit
I see that the Royal Navy is being put on alert to protect British waters against European fishing.
I know it’s unlikely, but in the event of a war breaking out, Britain would collapse in a week.
No young people in Britain, and by God especially not here, will fight for Boris Johnson and his Brexit.
You’d be looking at revolution- I’m not exaggerating that.
Yip. All true. But the SNP ( for reasons unbeknownst to me) always wants to play nice. Do things by the books. Try not to offend anyone, particularly in the press. A bunch of lily livered cowardy custards would probably describe them well. Politics isn’t like that. Good guys don’t tend to win. You have a goal, you do ANYTHING to achieve that goal. Or you get trampled on by others who don’t have the same qualms. I fear as a country we have totally missed the boat. It’s beyond depressing.
[…] December 11, 2020 admin 2 Views 0 Comments […]
This isn’t going to make you feel better Stu
link to twitter.com
A Person says:
11 December, 2020 at 4:50 pm
-Albert Herring-
The UN where Britain and its American ally have the right to veto any decision? That would be like applying for a divorce from a court where your own spouse is the judge- and doesn’t want you to divorce them.
So why didn’t they just veto the Chagos Islanders? UK as colonial invaders and US with a massive strategic airbase to “defend”?
I have more faith in the integrity of the UN and International Law. Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty would survive and be fully vindicated.
The problems would start with International recognition afterwards, but even then, supposing the UK and US did start being clever dicks, I firmly believe Scotland would be recognised by Europe, China, and Russia, and the vast majority of former UK “Colonies” who secured their own escape from British subjugation. The weight of International recognition would support Scotland, and if Scotland joined the EU, as a member state, then the US and England would pay a high price in lost trade and sanctions if they refused to recognise an EU member state, or sought to destabilise it.
If I’d been in charge instead of Sturgeon, before going to the UN, we’d have done the legwork and know EXACTLY which countries would formally recognise an Independent Scotland breaking free from the UK.
I said a long, long, time ago that the greatest threat to a Constitutionally based dissolution of the Union was leaving it as a last minute act of desperation sprung upon a population that hasn’t been apprised of the Constitutional realities. You make it look like “cheating” because you’ve put all your eggs in the democracy basket, when in fact, you are only requiring your rights under international law to be respected.
Constitutional rights by the way, which would starkly illustrate how ridiculous a Section 30 Agreement is; domestic “legislation” being used to subvert the rights of a constitutionally sovereign people. Not only is it bollocks, but the SNP shot it’s own horse in the race by giving Westminster a veto over a Scottish Referendum. What constitutional genius worked that one out? No friend of Scotland obviously…
This Constitutional approach is sound. A Scottish Backstop citing a breach of the 1707 International Treaty of Union would have had the same legitimacy as the UK trying to worm out of the Good Friday Agreement… another International Treaty.
That Scotland DIDN’T pursue a constitutional backstop is a shocking indictment of the SNP Government, who even had the Irish showing them the way and holding the door open for us.
I agreed with you at the time rev , as I said at the time I don’t give a rats ass how we get independence I still don’t but that ship has sailed . What really burns my pish is she is doing the same as she did the last time , she is saying that if a reasonable deal is reached as she did last time she would ACCEPT the outcome and work towards consensus, NOBODY gave her the right to utter this capitulation NOBODY, as Daisy Walker says this is treasonous to the independence movement
It is even MORE OBVIOUS by this utterance that she is NOT interested in independence and she is echoing the 1707 sentiments of the english that we are CATCH’D and she is serving Scotland up to HER MAISTERS
The SNP under NS don’t do clever politicking. It is all moral high ground and trying to be seen to be statesmanlike. That is fine when your opponents play by the rules but the Tories don’t and have never done so.
In 1979 when the SNP participated in the vote of no confidence in Callaghan they were blamed for the subsequent Thatcher era although the Tory voters made that happen. That is embedded in the political mythology that SLab trot out and that is what the SNP wanted to avoid again.
However what happened in allowing Boris in is as much of a mis step as any deal with May could have been.
The SNP under NS have failed at every step to prevent the catastrophe we are in. It is often said by opponents that the SNP want Scotland to suffer under Brexit to then be able to see the alternatives. The trouble with that is the ones who will suffer won’t be the Tories or the well off, it will be the same people that SLab kept under the cosh for decades promising the world and keeping in poverty with the idea they were the only hope.
We need clever political manoeuvring and I don’t see any under NS leadership yet.
O/t Sorry to disturb the flow but has anyone else had an email from “enthuse” saying that ….
This is confirmation that your regular payment to Wings Over Scotland has been cancelled.
Schedule ID: sub_CWpseIdzCV4zfc
If you wish to set-up a new regular payment to this charity, please visit the charity’s website directly.
Best Wishes,
The Enthuse™ Team
Tel: +44 (0) 20 3872 2090
facebook twitter
I didn’t cancel it. What’s going on?
Like you, I thought we should have done a deal with Johnson later – let alone May earlier. I make no pretence of a moral dilemma in these cases.
I am now beginning to wonder whether all this posturing over ‘negotiations’ has been just posturing. Looking at the ‘million to one chance’, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if ‘Richbritches Hedgefunders’ backed the no-deal at a million to one and then ‘invested’ in Johnson to get the thing through. If that’s the case, could Scotland sue a government in the International Courts for failing to negotiate in good faith for the people of this country?
Rev,
(1) The SNP get battered all day every day in the media anyway. It doesn’t seem to have done them any harm in the last 13 years. They’re currently more than TWENTY points higher in the polls than they were when they first got elected in 2007.
I mean they get battered but that’s mostly on small or nuanced policy issues that normal punters don’t follow and don’t really care about (in enough singular issue numbers).
(2) It wouldn’t have been a betrayal of the English left. The English left is split on Brexit, and it would have been saving them from the no-deal catastrophe that’s about to happen.
“Remain” is SEEN AS a more lefty political vehicle than “Leave” is. Due to that perception, if the SNP in any way started doing a deal with the tories to facilitate ANY kind of brexit, it’d be seen by “Remain” (and thus also a majority of the Scottish public) as a betrayal.
People keep using the phrase “Soft brexit / Softer brexit”. I’d say as soon as the SNP started trying to do a deal with the tories that term would lose it’s meaning. Remain and the rest of the UK establishment would portray the SNP as selfishly putting their interests before the common good. You need to remember the UK establishment doesn’t want to break up the UK either, they don’t want to lose Scotland, they’d use any possible leverage to damage the SNP. I find it unlikely they’d even agree to a deal that included a referendum for Scotland, no PM wants to even go near there after Cameron did, BUT EVEN IF THEY DID they’d absolutely shame and degrade and drag the SNP through the mud for working with the tories. It’d literally be part of their strategy of putting a smell on the SNP, guilt by association like the tories did with the lib dems.
Do you really think they’d let the SNP be seen as saviours generously coming along and helping England with their Brexit woes? No, they’d control the narrative as they always do, they’d use every angle to their political advantage in the oncoming referendum. They’d call the SNP selfish, insular, bringing up the drawbridge blah blah, “how can you Scots live with yourselves after abandoning the good remain voting population of England?” it’d be seen as cold hearted and ruthless, people would believe that narrative and couldn’t in good conscience vote for the SNP or independence.
Not that any of this would happen anyway because Theresa May wouldn’t want to come anywhere near being labelled “the prime minister who broke up the United Kingdom”. What would you choose if you were UK PM between the two worst case shit sandwich scenarios of “no deal with the EU for a little bit until it gets sorted” or “you’re going down in history as the PM who lost the UK”?
“no-deal catastrophe” things weren’t as dire back then and even now I’d argue it’s mostly just tory/UK deal posturing. It needs to be seen as difficult last resort stuff to appease the tory leave base when a deal inevitably comes through.
(3) The SNP worked with the Tories to pass every Holyrood budget from 2007-2011, and Labour constantly screamed about it. The SNP then won a massive landslide. The electorate isn’t as tribal as politics nerds are. They want politicians to get on with stuff in a sensible and practical way and they generally vote for the ones they think do so in the most grownup way, not the ones on the intolerant fundamentalist extremes.
Passing a budget is such a small insignificant thing to the general punter, so what if the SNP worked with the tories on this? Why would the average voter even know or care about this at the time or now? Brexit is history in the making, you can’t compare it to something so small as passing a Scottish budget, no one cares about the budget. Brexit on the other hand consumes UK politics and has spilled over into public life and presents such a large potential constitutional crisis, all eyes and attention are on it and so the SNP just come along and help the tories with it and they don’t get punished for it?
(4) Would YOU have voted No in a referendum that came about by passing a soft brexit deal? If not, why do you assume anyone else would?
I wouldn’t have voted “no” but I’m one of the most pro independence people I know. Why do I assume anyone else would vote no? Well in the event of a “soft” brexit Where’s the motivation for the general Scottish punter to vote for independence? Parity between EU/UK regulations would get patched up and the chaos would subside.
“Look! The good ol ship Britannia is going to survive after all! A little patch work here and there and it’ll be as good as new! (sort of). Why bother with that dingy little Indy life raft now when we can all just stay in our pyjamas in the good ol ship Britannia and be miserable together?!”.
No deal on the other hand? Well then things might get interesting. Then there’d be real urgency to escape. Even if a “no deal period” only lasted a small amount of time, confidence in the UK parliament would be irreversibly shattered. They wouldn’t have any excuse for their ineptitude and couldn’t hide behind the excuse of “oh it’s just last minute negotiation posturing”. They’d have officially fucked it.
Bob Mack @ 5.15
“Ok the English don’t have a vote here, but in the last referendum 55% of Scots felt themselves. to be part of the United Kingdom.”
Not strictly correct. A quick sketch at the census shows that there were in 2014 perhaps one million or more residents in Scotland who were from other countries (incl ‘extraction), and these are people holding to national identities other than Scottish. Historically the largest ethnic migrant group to Scotland comprises people from rest-UK, mainly England. In-migration to Scotland has been running at c.50,000 per annum over the past 20 years, which amounts to one million people in this period alone. Post indy survey work showed these groups mostly (i.e. 70%+) voted No, even across younger age groups.
Most Scots therefore voted Yes in 2014. The No vote only carried because of residents from rest-UK and elsewhere (making up perhaps as much as half of the No vote) and who, lets remember, voted to outright reject the offer of Scottish nationality/citizenship, in the process also blocking the human right of indigenous Scots to their own nationality. Scotland’s residence-based franchise, which is non-reciprocal in most other countries for referendums, only serves to adversely influence the ‘self-determination process.
Dyock, you win. I made it through about three paragraphs before I wanted to stub out cigarettes in my own eyes.
I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon’s so much a plant as she is a stooge. However, whatever she is, she deserves to be hounded out of Scotland for her treachery.
Stuart, as regards your comment at 5:07 pm, you say the last independence referendum was “free and fair”. But what about the breaking of purdah and the notorious Vow?
O/T
Do BBC Scotland walk about with a big board when doing an outside broadcast saying:
“Are you English? If so, would you like to be on the telly tonight?”
Just by chance they seem to pick out every english person in the area.
@Johnny Martin
I agree with you.
The “selling other lefty folk down the river” is a unionist trap that should ideally be rejected by all Scots. But the reality is it’s not and never will be.
I just think too big a proportion of the Scottish public don’t see it as a trap and are genuinely guilted by it. It’s a unionist argument that works and eats at people. I genuinely think it’s an argument that’d guilt a large proportion of Scots into not voting for Independence.
And giving the opposition such an opportunity to use that argument, strengthening it by helping the tories out of a difficult spot and seeming to sell the English remain voting left down the river is just too much for a large proportion of Scots to stomach.
@Denise says:
11 December, 2020 at 2:11 pm
“NS has to go, but my worry is she will anoint a terrible replacement ie Angus Robertson”
He has to win a seat first. I really hope the opposition gang up on him and kick him into touch.
OK because I was specifically vilified and insulted by the Rev for my view on this I return this one time only to respond to this cretinous argument about trading a Referendum for support for Brexit. One more time for the hard of thinking: if May’s Tories were as desperate as you say they were THEY WOULD HAVE APPROACHED THE FUCKING SNP WITH THE OFFER THEMSELVES. They’ve done worse deals, which is why they’ve survived for 300 years plus. They didn’t because A) They didn’t need to because they’d get what they wanted anyway with or without May and B) They very possibly would have lost the Independence Referendum and they knew it. And the SNP knew this too. Enough of this rule of thumb crap.
And on that I’m out.
I don’t think Feb/Mar 2019 was the right time. Yes did not take a clear lead in polls until 2020, tho polling was close during 2019 with Yes behind.
So the Indy majority wasn’t secured, could have been won during campaign, but not a certainty and not the time.
What has transpired since then has strengthened indy:
Shambolic withdrawal agreement negotiations.
Visibility of what Brexit means.
May resignation.
PM Boris
Purge of moderate remainer tories from conservative party.
Attempt to prorogue parliament.
The statements and antics of Boris, Cummings, Gove, Mogg and the visibility to all of some of the ERG little englander extremists.
DRoss & Lady Davidson.
UK exits Europe.
Further mainstream exposure of BBC as state propoganda
The UK’s Brexit negotiation tactics since then, pissing off the rest of Europe and exposing themselves to the world.
UK Govs response to Covid, initial denial of severity, , shambolic response, corruption, poor support for the poorest members of society and overall performance v’s the rest of the world.
Alex not guilty.
Internal Market bill.
Removal of Trump.
Terms of Brexit known?
Brexit transition period completed.
EU members states free of commitments to UK and free to comment on Scotland’s future EU status.
And looks like we are maybe lucky that the Scots Gov has now had time to start getting it’s own house in order.
I get that we all want it to happen yesterday, and some just want to try and stick the boot into NS, but it really wasn’t the time.
kapelmeister says:
11 December, 2020 at 5:16 pm
Three weeks till Scotland is out the EU and major league asshole Sturgeon is tweeting about football and Xmas cards. How did this person, ambitious and false, rise to play
Well kapellmeister this to me is the biggest political mystery of my life. I can only explain it by her relatability and ordinariness. Her genuine , council house, working class background exudes that trust and lack of swagger which people really buy. And I have to say I rather like. In contrast to Boris she is the absolute polar opposite.
Alas she is strategically inept, philosophically empty, and risk averse. And totally in thrall to wokish nonsense which, considering her background, I find quite odd. When I received in the post that SNP Christmas card of her in her ice skates whilst every other ***** can’t even get a pint in the pub, I flung it in the bin and immediately concluded if she was chocolate she would eat herself.
There still remains a chance with the Internal Market Bill, but I fear the SNP will miss it too.
The Bill includes a section to forbid Judicial Review of Executive decisions. This would be utterly unacceptanle to the legal fraternity of every nation on these islands including the Supreme Court. The timing of challenge is critical, because The government by that very legislation will forbid it.
It must be challenged to drive a wedge between law and legislature.
@ Hatuey at 2:59 pm
Just for the record I have been rattling on about Sturgeon and acolytes since 2015
So I’m not a Johnnie come Lately
Looks like it is too late for anything other than SOVERIEGN PEOPLE POWER @Sharny Dubs and @Bob Mack says.
Masses on the streets from 1st January 2021 outside Bute House, Holyrood wherever the ‘local’ seat of Government is (Council Offices etc.)
BBC, SKY etc. are never away from these demonstrations in places like Hong Kong and Belarus.
1st of January 2021, Scotland IS INDEPENDENT because England broke the Treaty of Union via Brexit.
No ifs, no Buts.
Scotland’s Elected representatives can do what is necessary to cement said Independence internationally or be removed (as per Claim of Right / Declaration of Arbroath) and replaced with doers that will.
The SNP had 6 years and wasted them (on malicious prosecution of AS and Wokoharams Agenda amongst other bollocks).
@ Dunadd: you suggested “what about a petition to demand a plebiscite election?”
Make that a Holyrood parliament petition and they would have to pay some attention.
It’s worth a try.
“No deal would be catastrophic” says Sturgeon. Not for Scotland’s independence if the polls are anything to go by. A no deal would considerably boost support for independence.
Sturgeon still thinks it’s her job to save England from a catastrophic brexit.
Meanwhile britnat Westminster continues to treat Scotland and its people like shit.
Sturgeon is betraying Scotland. Get SNP MPs out of Westminster! Get them to walk out before any pointless brexit vote in Westminster. Sturgeon won’t order a withdrawal so it’s up to Joanna Cherry et al to find the guts to do it.
you cant know this, support for indy at the time was only 42%. it only rose to 45% in the dec 19 ge. every move the snp made was to appeal to no supporters to switch to yes.
hint, the tactic worked. we are at 55% support for yes. you simply cant look back in time and state that doing a deal with may would have had the same effect.
the tactic nicola took worked. at the time it was believed that doing a deal with the tories would damage support for the indy cause. i agreed with this then and i see no reason to doubt it now.
“you cant know this, support for indy at the time was only 42%. it only rose to 45% in the dec 19 ge. every move the snp made was to appeal to no supporters to switch to yes.
hint, the tactic worked. we are at 55% support for yes. you simply cant look back in time and state that doing a deal with may would have had the same effect.”
Oh aye, the tactic worked brilliantly, didn’t it? Because we’re now independent and still in the EU and everything’s great.
David Ferguson says:
11 December, 2020 at 2:33 pm
There was no sudden dawning of enlightenment, just an attempt to avoid a political humiliation…
“Unfortunately I thnk it was a bit more than that. It wasn’t to “avoid political humiliation” that the whole SNP voted in favour of the amendment when it became apparent it would be carried.
It was a cynical ploy to conceal the identities of the Wokerati from the public. If we had known who they are, we could have booted them out at the next election”.
Not only were the SNP MSP’s instructed to vote for the amendment when it became apparent they would lose they must also have been told not to respond to constituents emails. This would have been done much earlier but with the same objective ….not giving away who were planning to vote against the amendment. Only a very few slipped through (before the command was made?)
I do think the fact NS has such unique appeal a is something to admire. There is no question she has talent but I can only conclude she has been badly advised. I just wish she had an independent adviser whose career did not depend on her patronage. Someone more grounded and out with the political bubble who could have moulded her into a political giant. Sadly she has been surrounded by idiots too inclined to tell her she had such a wonderful set of clothes, and encouraging a propensity for wokish idiocy leading her to believe her own propaganda and seduction as the Guardian’s Poster Girl of the Year.
@ Silver Darling who mentioned “the SNP want Scotland to suffer under Brexit to then be able to see the alternatives”
I’ve heard this reasoning before and it never fails to shock. Knowing the hardship Brexit is going to bring, what leader would ever inflict it on a country that didn’t vote for it?
If the FM’s supporters invented that justification to account for her lack of action and initiative, what cruel people they and their leader must be
If that is the real justification for the FM’s lack of action and initiative, what a heartless person she must me.
Since AFAIK she has never denied it, she must be ready to inflict poverty, unemployment and emargination from Europe on her people, with no guarantee she will ever be able to get them out of their predicament which she contributed to.
A Person
As a favour, Iceland could send a couple of gunboats to protect the EU fleet. The Royal Navy would be on it’s knees in a matter of a few days.
Regarding Nicola Sturgeon’s face on the SNP Christmas cards, does she get royalty payments for the use of her image?
Serious question.
Baxter: “ I can only conclude she has been badly advised.”
Wouldn’t it be easier to admit you were wrong?
I’m the last one to care what English politicians think of us but they must look at what is going on up here with this Salmond inquiry and shake their heads in disbelief. It’s like Romania or something.
We have the most rancid politics in the west.
Rancid.
Msdidi @ 8:03
Agreed funny enough it was Johann Lamont who noticed it and called them out for being so quiet , Summerville surprisingly voted for the amendment while slaughtering What most her pals describe as TERFS on Twitter , TWO faced you better believe she is , her only objective was keeping her well paid position that is being protected by the Murrells , other words covering her Arse , just like the rest of them they are keeping their heads down , but sure as Christ they haven’t went away.
So everyone don’t be fooled by the sudden about turn , all is not as it seems it’s just better hidden this time round , this lot have adapted due to the recent embarrassing revelations about what’s been going on , They are taking cover nothing has been accomplished so far.
No longer an SNP member but sending out Christmas cards of herself ice-skating is peak Sturgeon arrogance and tone-deafness. For starters, she’s the leader, not the whole party. Second, after everything people have put up with this year…read the bloody room ffs.
It’s things like this that make me think a landslide in the election is less likely than we keep being told it is.
Oh Dear Stu,
Realpolitik, the thing the dreamers don’t want to consider.
They can’t get past “what do I want” when considering what is possible. Sadly, they have been focused on the former, because in-group approval is more important, without even thinking about the latter.
And here we are. Where you pointing out reality is in itself an insult to their delusional mindset too far.
What a shitshow.
That said, I will be contributing to your next crowd-funder, whenever or if ever it is.
I think that you are too honest for them.
Dangerfield throws his hat into the transgender ring.. no pun intended.
link to gordondangerfield.com
Bob Mack says
just removing the rotten planks aint going to do much good,
they are a main part of the structure, also supported by the supposed to be good ones.
why haven’t any of them put their heads above the trench before? does anyone think that this utter mess just happened overnight?
this has been simmering away for years without any of the supposed good guys noticing. believe that?
it doesn’t take long for one rotten apple to infect all the rest.
I would love to be wrong, the little bit of my belief evaporated last January with that speech from queen cockroach.
my mission for the rest of the short span I have left will be trying to build a new future for my grandchildren. I don’t care who comes forward to lead this, but I will take some convincing after this let down.
@John Jones,
I understand that John ,but in truth there are many SNP members like the ones who post on this forum who can strip out and rebuild the party in its original form.
They too are as frustrated as I am by the current leadership.
The NEC elections was laying the keel.
Most people will notice the English public are being prepared for the deal the ERG wanted from the start , a break from Europe with England calling the shots.
Devolution is pretty well gone now , it wasn’t the Labour Party that setup devolution it was the Council of Europe that insisted upon threats of expulsion from the EU in other words they were given a offer they couldn’t refuse, so the plaudits Dewar received were just Pantomime to fool the Scottish electorate into believing Labour was doing something for them all this while altering the nautical border where St Andrews is in English coastal waters Aye good auld Donald eh .
Without the protection of the EU England will do exactly what it wants and treat us like any English county we don’t matter , so due to the current leadership it looks like we are going down without so much as a halfhearted defence or a blow delivered in our defence.
Just imagine the SNP did not exist Would we be in a worse position than we were in September the 19th 2014 , it’s hard to quantify exactly how much ground has been gained after all the talk and all the Blah Blah Blah what’s changed , SWEET F ALL , Nada , Zilch we are still under house arrest and it’s not due to this virus , a whole country Neutered and effectively suppressed and it wasn’t even on the News it just kinda crept up on us and we didn’t notice it , we are in your proverbial straight jacket , People we trusted have been in on the Deception from the start we were conned .
Too all those saying they are throwing the towel in, one simple response if I may…….DON’T!
You may be pissed off. I am. Many others are too. But we stay to fight. The heart and soul of the SNP is being retaken. The disaster that lies before us can be our recruiting sergeant. Independence is bigger than the SNP.
So, let us get behind our opportunity that lies before us. We are better than them. They will not prevail.
Right that’s it. We’re in this together – and if I may say, we need this Wings forum, lCraig Murray, Barrhead Boy, Gordon Dangerfield, Yours for Scotland and all the rest. Believe and if you don’t believe, look across the water to the statelet of NI – remaining in the customs union, the single market, and soon I believe to be part of a United Ireland.
Independent Scotland – yes we can!
I shall start a sweepstake with Nicola fans. The question is
How many days after Brexit is complete will Nicola reveal her cunning hidden master plan?
50p entry.
@Bob Mack
What would be the point of old wine in new bottles? The SNP wasn’t (and isn’t) fit for purpose.
For all the Wishartesque bloviating about feeling the width of their majority, the polls and how we’re going to win together etc. you have to wonder if there is really the will amongst rank and file members to root the twin evils of gradualism and TRA extremism? I have my doubts.
I’d like to think there will be an exodus of Woko Haramists and the twitler youth, but I wouldn’t count on it. It’d turn my stomach sharing a party with the likes of them, but perhaps others have stronger stomachs.
Why don’t we have new wine in new bottles?
What`s wrong with the SNP MSP/MP`S that they won`t stand up for the people who voted them in in the belief they would strive to deliver independence. Why don’t they kick Sturgeon out if they can or at least put some serious pressure on her. Why the silence.
There is now no doubt that a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence.
@Andy Ellis,
A 2000 Chateau Lafite wkuld taste good from any bottle. if you could afford it.
indy could be served by anyone as ong as it is their priority.
If that includes a refocused rejuvenated SNP then fair enough.
@ Willie: well said. It is miserable, stressful and time-consuming but we must fight to get the SNP back on track. We have had two victories in less than 2 weeks so it is possible.
The problem I have with requesting May for the section 30 order, is that No was still ahead at that time and the polls hadn’t budged much from 2014 numbers.
Most of us political nerds on Wings could predict what we are now witnessing, but for most ordinary folk who I spoke to at the time, it was ‘a load oh shite, their ah the same!’.
So, had May given us the order, the SNP would have been brought under pressure about when she was going to use the order.
“Mr Speaker the SNP has been demanding the right to hold another referendum, and have been granted one, and they are too scared to have one” (loud hoots of delight from backbenchers.
They know fine well Mr Speaker that the people of Scotland have shown in poll after poll that they voted to stay in the UK in 2014 and that they haven’t changed their minds”
Loud cheers from all sides as the SNP MP’s, sit looking glum-faced, knowing they look stupid!
So, sorry Rev, but I think it would have been a catastrophic error of judgement to have done a deal with the devil at that time.
Ziisus, Rev Stu.
Thanks for exposing things we might not want to see.
Independence should be the main, the only focus. or the biggest party.
But oh no, don’t rock the boat.
Come on Scots! Where’s your fine mettle.
@robert graham
I’d heard this claim before about the Council of Europe putting pressure in the UK. This article claims that’s BS. I personally can’t find anything very compelling supporting the claim. link to edinburgheye.wordpress.com
Patrick Roden @ 9:45
“Loud cheers from all sides as the SNP MP’s, sit looking glum-faced, knowing they look stupid!”
With the sole exception of J Cherry that, I’m afraid, is their typical modus operandi. Particular shout out on that score to Ian ‘frilly tartan undies on the outside’ Blackford, and his trusty ‘Boy Wonder’, Pish Washout.
As we welcome 2021 with a no-deal, anybody who didn’t vote Yes in 2014 AND Remain in 2016 who wants to complain will get a resounding STFU from me.
@Andy Ellis (9.27) –
There’s no excuse for rank and file SNP members not to regain control of branches and get these roasters hoofed.
All of the outraged tweets we’ve seen since yesterday’s amendment vote are valuable evidence. The entryists must be challenged with this stuff – ‘do you support this?’ (e.g. the dangerous gibberish from Blackman and Fiona Robertson). If so, they can fuck off and campaign for it elsewhere.
It would be sweet if they all joined Harvie’s Greens en masse – their next conference would be, let’s say, ‘entertaining’, snotters and hair extensions all over the place…
@ Beaker at 8:23 pm
I would say no to any money,
I would suggest that she created a Brand called “Nicola” when she did the “I’m With Nicola” stuff, by doing so she made herself the face of the SNP , and entwined the Two.
Now I think she believes her own image, but it’s only an image.
Personality flaw? Yes or No?
link to theguardian.com
If even the Guardian will print this, maybe the cockandballs pendulum is at last swinging back into sanity.
The SNP have blown it. Over to the young folk of Scotland who can bring us independence via the new social movement route.
I mentioned yesterday the crowdjustice fundraiser for the Forwomen court case against Scottish government defining “women” to include “men”.
Forwomen’s update today is that the judge has allowed the Scot Gov funded Equality Scotland to intervene in the case. This means extra cost for Forwomen who have had to engage Aidan O’Neill for another day in court and to study the 5000 word submission from Equality Scotland.
Please if anyone can help, please spread the word or donate on the crowdjustice site to For Women Scotland “Stop the Scottish Government redefining “woman” to include men.
I feel sick and cheated I have felt for a while we were losing direction with MPs constant threats about leaving while the other side sniggered and hooted, why threaten for years then do nothing a few years ago I felt independence was within our grasp but ….. see it slipping away now. I hope I am wrong
The posts have been coming thick and fast so, for those who may have missed them, some great comments towards the end of the thread here, by Lorna Campbell and Lumilumi –
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Stu Campbell
The people of Scotland are sovereign. In 2014 they were told staying in the UK would keep them in the EU. They were told the UK is a union of equals.
Scotland voted Remain in the EU in the EU referendum in 2016.
That was the democratic basis of the red line: Scotland stays in the EU as part of the UK or ends the UK by resiling the Treaty of Union. Just as the UK resiled the EU Treaty of Lisbon without requiring permission from the EU.
But, Sturgeon and the SNP capitulated.
Either the Treaty of Union exists or it doesn’t exist. If it doesn’t exist then Scotland and England are separate nations and Westminster has no jurisdiction over Scotland. If it does exist then Westminster has broken the treaty with Brexit and no longer has any authority over a newly independent Scotland.
Correction: the UK did not resile the Lisbon Treaty, it continues. The UK Parliament unilaterally decided to leave the EU, so they would no longer be bound by the European Union’s Lisbon Treaty and EU law.
So the Scottish government are defining ” women ” to include ” men ”
Seems that the Wokes and Trans within the Scottish Government do not learn. They do not accept normality, nor do they accept it seems the wishes of the overwhelming majority.
Bearded men with a penis if that is an extreme view should never be allowed to masquerade as women. High time the trans freak show was derailed – and it will be as recent events have shown.
Crisiscult @ 9:47
Your link diversity , cats and Tea ha ha
Are you Taking the Piss
I can’t be bothered wasting my time digging out the evidence of the the Scottish Society that was wound up a few years ago they had the details of every move made by the UK and the Council of Europe , the Council of Europe should not be confused with the EU , most decisions by the Council are usually adopted by the EU Parliament not always but they have a very strong decisive leadership that’s usually makes sure their advice is adopted .
I would follow this line rather than Diversity, Tea, and Cats and the memory of some punter who says he is in Edinburgh , with all due Respect posters with more knowledge than me have far more detailed information so you do the work and let everyone know your findings for the time being I believe I am right until proven otherwise .
Thanks
Bob Mack @ 9:26 pm
What odds are you giving for..
Devo Max?
(Probably the favourite. Keir Starmer postponed a speech on Devo Max that he was to give today until after the UK/EU talks conclude)
Home Rule?
(The dark horse. That time Boris Johnson asked Nicola Sturgeon if Home Rule would buy off the nats? Probably a second question to get a Boris to say yes to a Section 30)
Federalism?
(I read Michael Gove will announce plans, after the transitional arrangements end, to change the constitution of the UK. I think this will need a Unionist majority in Holyrood to succeed)
Devolution for English regions?
(I read the PM has postponed until next year details about devolution for English regions. If Scotland gets more devolution. Working Age benefits, Vat, Employment law, Immigration, The English regions in the North will want devolution to compete)
OFF TOPIC
England has just threatened the French with eh 4 Warships the mighty Royal Navy will be on Station protecting England’s fish where most of it is caught in eh Scottish waters , a small detail
4 yep , that’s more than 3 and less than 5 for the numerically challenged
4 Warships to cover the coastline of the whole UK fk I bet they are shittin themselves, that’s 1 to cover all points North-South-East and west
Callers to LBC are having a ball they are Laughing their socks off and are surprised we have so many spare ships , it’s becoming farcical if it wasn’t so serious it really would be funny
Be Prepared for back to back repeats of Dads Army and bloody Vera belting out oh who gives a fk what she would be belting out but it will be rousing uplifting jingoistic tripe .
THE END
A good article Rev. I think the SNP will probably abstain on the vote on a Brexit deal (that is if there is one).
1 As you say, If they vote against they’ll be voting for no deal.
2 If they vote for it they’ll be just as responsible for job losses, economic crisis that’s bound to follow.
3 Abstain. So they won’t vote against it but won’t vote for it either. The Starmer principle.
-Crisiscult-
Thank you for your link as it contained the 2012 story where George Foulkes compared his opponents to Ho*****st deniers. That guy is the absolute worst: a cheerleader for Iraq, and his famous quote that Scotland shouldn’t have tried to improve its public services because that would be “doing it on purpose”.
At times like these it may be good to remind ourselves of precisely how dire Scottish Labour were and this allows me to recount an amusing incident.
In 2014 I attended a function in the Alastair Grey hall upstairs at Oran Mor in Glasgow (I know, I know). Can’t remember what it was exactly now but believe it had to do with a musical thing my wife was involved with.
Who should we see there but our MP- at that time, a Labour chap who’d been in office for a while. Now, as it happened, a couple of years earlier, our son’s modern studies class at school had written to this MP numerous times asking for him to go and talk to them, but he had always patched them.
At the end, every attendee got a goody bag, and as we stood in the queue our MP brazenly picked up about TEN of the bags and strolled down the stairs while barking to someone he was with to make sure the car was ready for him.
It was like Little Lord Fauntleroy- beyond parody. I turned to my wife and said, “Glasgow Labour in a nutshell”. Unreal!
I have heard it all now. My expletive addled friend believes that NS and Mhairi wotsisname are more than friends and Mr Murrell has his own boyfriend and the wokerati have the photies and that is why the man in charge of RCS gets a free pass to poke about in parts he shouldnae.
Naw!?
Does anyone know if Sturgeon gets paid for doing those Covid Briefings?
Haven’t seen Nicola’s Christmas card. Does she appear there as the baby? Or one of the angels? Flying about in mid-air. Or is it ‘hot air’, even on a cold winter night? Or is she there as Santa? Dishing out Christmas buttons? (After all, Santa too was a saint, just like our wee Nic: actually, exactly like her, for he was a Saint Nicola(s) too, but unfortunately a male version thereof – ‘just call me Klaus’, for short).
Or does oor ain wee Nicola appear on the card as the reign-dear (shades of auld Betty) or what? No, no – I know what it must be – she’s the one and only STAR, at the top of the TREE?
But now you’re telling me it’s ‘none of the above’. So … what are you telling me? … She’s just someone skating along, without a care in the world, nonchalantly singing her song … on very thin ice …?
Can’t wait to see it? Somebody send me one …
But why’s she alone? Why’s Peter not on it? I was hoping for ‘Happy Christmas from the Murrells’? Or ‘… from the royal couple’? Or even ‘… from the Two Butes (or should that be Graces?) in Bute House’.
But now, alas – according to what you’re telling me about the card – there’s only one skater on it? Only one! Nicola alone – no Peter! Is it published by ‘Lonely Planet’?
Have they – the royal couple – him an’ her, or her an’ him, Gender A and Gender B, and everything else in between or throughout the whole alphabet for ever after, whoever and whatever – are they a couple no more? Have they been decoupled?
Or – sorry Peter – maybe it’s nothing to do with coupling or decoupling. Is it just that you’ve been ‘deselected’?
There could be another scenario behind it, of course. Considering the increasingly Byzantine nature of Scottish and, especially, SNP politics.
Maybe this decoupling, this go-it-alone skater – on y’ go yersel’, hen (or whatever gender is appropriate) – maybe it’s a secret Newspeak code to celebrate independence …
No, no – not Scotland’s, y’dafty; the UK’s – from Europe.
In the spirit of this festive season.
Hogmanay cancelled; Brexit Festival to flood Princes Street instead. Grand opening of UK Hub, joy to the world – as pubs close for Covid.
But scrap that reference to ‘Joy to the World’. Isn’t that what those Furious Euro people’s call their theme tune, the one that drives Boris mad, by some lunatic German composer?
‘What’s that Boris? Nicola’s just winding you up, is she? What do you want instead? Rule Britannia … ?’
‘No, of course not: Britannia doesn’t rule: I do.’ ‘You do, do you?’ ‘Well, yes. When Carrie lets me!’
‘OK, so what’s it to be, instead of Rule Britannia? … Eh? … Oh, OK … Then ‘Roll over Beethoven’ it is … What’s that? You’re not too keen on all these pesky Germanic types … Like Beethoven?’
‘Yes, and that Mrs Merkel too … And I want a follow-up to the Roll Over one’
‘You want her to rollover too … as a follow up? I always knew you were a bit of a gambler, Boris, but that’s one rollover that won’t work. Ye’ve nae chance …’
‘No, I want a follow-up disk, you fool. This is Desert Island Disks I’m on, isn’t it?’ …’
‘(Under breath:) Yes, it is – because after your Brexit, that’s what our sceptred, and by then deserted isle will be: a desert. (Out loud, now:) OK, Boris, so what’s it to be, your follow-up? … What’s that? …Oh …’
‘A thoroughly British – y’know, English, one: an old favourite, it goes something like this: “Please release me, let me go; For I don’t love you any more”. Very appropriate for feasting our Brexit, don’t you think? Celebrating our freedom, from all these Euro-Idiots. The liberated people will love it, won’t they’
‘Well, Yes, Boris, except that that one’s by a guy called, em, Englebert Humperdink. Doesn’t really sound very British … does he? Not exactly the name of yer olde English yeoman, is it?’
‘What do you mean, doesn’t sound British, man? Humper-Dik, not British? Of course it’s British, English to the core, just like me. In fact, a name like that’s perfect – everyone will indeed think, precisely, of me!’
‘Yes, Boris, OK. “Please release me, it is …” (Under Breath:) And release me too. Get me outta here. This place is going mad. (Slams door, and deserts.Leaving recording studio of ‘Desert Island Discs’, for ever.’ Escapes into the stale and putrid air of the newly free, and reborn, Brexit nation.
Meanwhile, further North, skater skates on, as – next miracle escape after Covid saved her last time – thin ice holds.
The fable of The Sturgion and the independent frog.
The Sturgion said: You have to carry me.
The independent frog answered: We may, but free elections means we may choose whom to represent us.
The Sturgion said: For us to win, it must include me.
The independent frog asked: So you want me to carry you, campaign for you, give my money to you, spend my life for you?
The Sturgion answered: The answer is me!
The independent frog said: Scotland desperately need to become independent with the challenges ahead. Will you be good?
The Sturgion answered: If Holyrood vanishes my ability to leach may too. Trust me.
The Sturgion procrastinated, demoralized and stung again and again for years!
When the time were running out the independent frog asked: Why?
And the Sturgion answered: Wheesh slave. There isn’t time to elect anyone else. Give me 5 more years.
Aye UTTER Shitshow
I think the Europeans will come to our rescue. They must have seen the big message on the bus – “STOP BREXIT”.
They love Scottish people, don’t they? Everybody loves us. Our culture and all that, the kilts and stuff, bagpipes. We’re Europeans at heart, aren’t we, they must see that…
And look how progressive we are. Europeans are into progress politics. Then there’s all that environmental stuff we do. We’re like the biggest producers of wind on the planet or something.
I’m sick of being humble. We’ve got a lot to offer. The Europeans see that and they’ll help us out, wait and see. They’ll offer Boris a deal on the condition that he lets us have a referendum. When we win they’ll beg us to join the EU. That’s what the “leave a light on” thing was about.
That’s what I’m expecting. Nicola’s played a blinder.
Eh Wull at 1.28 BRAVO my name for it the Sturrell Medieval Court, bloody bunch o tossers really, aye she’s eyeing up a UN/EU job, we know for FACT her bloody handmaiden Liz Lloyd has had interviews in Canada, no sure for what mind, eh she’s thick as mince BTW, had to deal wi her during 2014, meh goad, total turnip really.
Hautey @5.16am
Careful now, the folks at WGD might think you’re being serious and invite you to be an honorary member of their club
The current Brexit talks/negotiation is purely to mitigate/save Ireland. For all intents and purposes, UK (minus NI) is going to get a No Deal. God save Scotland if Nicola/SNP dithers on independence. There will be almighty hell to pay in May if she does. For the rest of us, we must organise to vote for an ersatz party (ISP) if necessary.
Hatuey – And don’t forget , being super-great Europeons we always let the other countries beat us at football , cause we think winning is just not progressive . Is that an armada I spy on the horizon coming to rescue us , or just some RN battleships patrolling for foreign fishing boats and drowning immigrants ?
And Bravo Wull @ 1.28 . That surface may not be as solid as the Ice Maiden believes
Hatuey says:
12 December, 2020 at 1:02 am
“Does anyone know if Sturgeon gets paid for doing those Covid Briefings?”
EQUITY rates, I’d imagine.
Robert Graham @ 11:29
Like the guy you’re having a go at I was around at the time and had been following the devolution/independence debate closely since the late 1960s. Dr. James Wilkie was a prolific letter writer to the Scotsman throughout a lot of that period, but at no time do I recall any reference to this supposed organisation and I had never heard of it before he made his claims. I understand that in all of the documentation which was deposited with the National Library there is not a single piece of evidence that any government or organisation gave any response other than ‘Thank you for your letter of x date’.
Quite simply there is nothing to back up the claim that this invisible band had anything to do with putting pressure on anyone.
@Ian B 10.01pm
Agreed: my concern (based on their years of torpidity and doing SFA about TRA entryism and the lack of fight in the leadership’s belly) is that I just don’t see it happening. Heartening as the NEC elections and the recent vote were, they represent a few battles won, not victory in the war.
I simply don’t think it is possible, or even advisable, to have people with beliefs like those held by Blackman, McDonald, Spears, Smith, Roberston et al in the same organisation. Hopefully some of them will follow the likes Jack Deeth, but let’s face it many of them are well entrenched and have lots of skin in the game: their livelihoods and futures depend on remaining within a mainstream political party they have helped parasitise from within.
The crossovers between the gender-woo brigade and the many organisations which depend on the Scottish Government largely or even totally, for their funding are fertile ground for the promotion and then adoption of extreme ideological positions which enjoy negligible support.
The no-platforming “there is no debate” agenda of these zealots has come home to roost. It allows them to other any disagreement as abuse and hate speech. They have been handed unparalleled power and influence by a party leadership which appears to be asleep at the wheel.
If we had years to turn this around I’d be more hopeful, but we DON’T have years. Those who have chosen to remain in the party have a heavy responsibility: show us you mean business. The gender zealots must either be disciplined or expelled. Inaction or pleas for compromises and group hugs aren’t going to cut it. These people aren’t interested in debate, compromise or agreeing to differ: they demand unconditional surrender and total acceptance of their extremist position.
The party needs to show us results.
Hi Stuart,
I have to say I disagree with you here. A lot of people are thinking along similar lines to you. Unfortunately there would have been too many if’s and but’s and the whole thing would have become a quagmire of treachery. There is a very interesting piece discussing what you are talking about here.
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
“I have to say I disagree with you here. A lot of people are thinking along similar lines to you. Unfortunately there would have been too many if’s and but’s and the whole thing would have become a quagmire of treachery.”
As opposed to where we are now?
Oh Stu -if only are the saddest words in the world. This blog needs to be shared on every platform. You are right in every single aspect of this. But please don’t give up – time the media started inviting you on to comment x
Andy Ellis @ 9:47am. Excellent points made.
@Margie Davidson I agree, but the blog was banned from twitter bcos of the endless attacks on trans rights.
Andy Ellis @ 9:47am.
Like.
More dross bipod. You can’t get in Vietnam and until recently Thailand who have strict Visa and quarantine restrictions . Keep trying.
Are we suffering from a new parcel of rogues?
The blame for the brexit mess lies with the 17.4 million who voted for it.
But never mind, Kevin McKenna thinks brexit is a good idea.
BTW Stu did McTernan ever settle that $100 bet?
“BTW Stu did McTernan ever settle that $100 bet?”
After I sued him, yes. Although he didn’t pay the £25 court costs. Gerry Hassan still hasn’t paid me the tenner he owes me.
“So, sorry Rev, but I think it would have been a catastrophic error of judgement to have done a deal with the devil at that time.”
Sigh. “Catastrophic”? So you mean we’d have ended up somewhere worse than we are now? Out of the EU with no deal, no referendum, no plan to get one, and a Tory majority set to dismantle Holyrood?
Tell me, how much worse could it have been than that, exactly?
If we couldn’t win a referendum from a starting position of 45-48%, in the circumstances of the clear alternative being a hard Tory Brexit, then we don’t fucking deserve independence.
I now hate they Murrell’s I feel so cheated, that cow is in tow with Johnston, she’s in power to help him tame the nats. What a Xmas and new year uh! Tween Covid, brexit and the sleekit worming Murrell’s backing any brexit deal. I hate the two weirdo’s with every fibre in my being (Bless mr father for I have sinned) I’ve never hated anyone in my life as much as I hate them. Can’t we overthrow our government? There must be something we can do? Bawjaws is going to wipe out holyrood, wee Nic the devil will be off lording it in Europe (with her bit of skirt in tow) pocketing millions, baldy liar gay boy Murrell will be off some place warm and sunny with his wee hunky boy We will be left under the watchful eye of the billionaire Torys with nae independence, nae holyrood and nae say. Tents go sky high, benefits cut, absolutely everything costing a bomb trying make ends meet. Who on earth is going to try save us??? Ah! I see someone over the horizon on horseback… cud it be our knight in shining armour?? Yes ms Cherry (gulp) and here we go again full circle 🙁