From the mouths of eggs
We got a tweet this morning from one of those odd Twitter accounts that’s been going for eight years and still only has six followers. This one appears to be a fairly moderate right-wing, UK-nationalist Brexiter with only a few dozen tweets (nearly all replies) to their name since 2011.
But readers, he’s got a point.
We’ve pointed out before that the SNP have gotten themselves into a real mess over Brexit, whereby they’re campaigning to prevent/overturn the very thing that gives them a mandate for a second indyref.
(Independence being, let’s remember, the SNP’s primary if not sole reason to exist, and a referendum now being officially the party’s only stated route to achieving it.)
They’ve fallen into a managerialism trap, prioritising the mitigation of bad UK decisions in a devolved Scotland over escaping UK decisions in an independent one. They’ve become – accidentally, we hope – a party of better devolution, not independence.
The SNP has no mandate – either political or moral – to save England and Wales from what they voted for in 2016. They voted Leave, then they declined to vote for Remain parties in the 2017 election, and if they’ve changed their minds now then it’s up to them to sort it out.
(Does anyone seriously think that if the SNP somehow managed to stop Brexit, they’d be carried shoulder-high from the Commons, all given knighthoods and told Scotland could have whatever they wanted? Remember how that was supposed to happen if we voted No five years ago?)
If the SNP were to vote for Theresa May’s deal in exchange for a second indyref they’d be doing the rest of the UK a service by preventing a no-deal Brexit, which would be enormously worse then even her scabby and battered deal.
By ensuring that a withdrawal deal including the Irish backstop went through, they’d be doing the best they could to protect the Good Friday Agreement and peace process, and they’d be royally pissing off UKIP and Nigel Farage and all the hardcore Tory Eurosceptics, which presumably nobody reading this site would object to very much.
They’d be securing the best chance of winning an independence vote that any of us are likely to see in our lifetimes. Circumstances are never, ever going to get better than now. The UK is never going to be a less attractive option.
They’d be giving people in Scotland a clear and concrete democratic choice: to stay in the EU with Scotland, or leave it with the UK. We already know from numerous polls that a majority of Scots think Brexit will be worse than independence. Now they’d have to actually vote for one or the other.
They’d earn at least the grudging respect of those troublesome Yes Leavers who are (notwithstanding the above paragraph) currently keeping indy support below 50%, by acknowledging the UK’s legitimate right to leave in accordance with the wishes of the majority of its voters.
(Because unlike a second indyref, which has an empirical electoral and political double mandate, the inconvenient fact is that there are still absolutely no democratic grounds for a second EU referendum, however much some people might want one. Labour and the Tories stood in a general election AFTER the EU referendum, both on platforms of carrying out Brexit, and got 82% of the vote between them. If people wanted a second EU vote they could have voted Lib Dem in 2017, but they didn’t.)
Their position would be coherent and principled, rather than the current confused and contradictory fudge. Their job is to secure independence for Scotland whether Brexit happens or not, and their duty is to seize any chance to make that happen. They owe England and Wales nothing, other than perhaps to respect their democratic choices.
If we were Theresa May right now (ugh), we’d be putting the offer on the table. If she believes, as she claims to, that Scots really want to stay in the Union then she’s got nothing to lose. She’d keep the UK together AND get the Brexit she desperately wants.
(If she was wrong and Scotland voted Yes, we know the people of England wouldn’t be very bothered and it wouldn’t hurt her anyway.)
And in the unlikely event that she does, Nicola Sturgeon should snatch her hand off.
IMO Westminster will cancel BREXIT before it will allow Scotland to escape their greedy clutches. If they offer a S30 order they will be lying. Nicola knows this. In her R4 interview she made clear that she does not trust the Westminster Government. Their word is not their bond.
In order to achieve 50+% for independence the SNP needs to appeal to the fence-sitting voters. Likely those who voted REMAIN EU in 2016 but NO in 2014.
Personally I don’t mind the SNP going ‘canny’ and ‘slow’ for a couple of reasons…
1)Consequence of losing a rushed 2nd independence referendum in 5 years don’t bear thinking about. I do detect a wind of change in the air. However many still have head in sand that Brexit will be OK and business as usual shall return soon. Why not wait for Brexit effect to hit hard?
2) Once we are actually out of EU then there is a good chance Scotland will be given fast-tracked membership offer. EU can’t make that offer while UK still a member state. This certainty will be a massive bonus for YES2 campaign.
Either way : Independence isn’t just about Brexit.
I also feel Sturgeon has a longer term game plan – she is just being cautious until the smog clears.
It Does kinda make sense but would you trust a Tory to implement it?
1) May agrees & Signs off agreement
2) Brexit vote passes in WM
3) Government falls and/or May leaves
4) Boris tears up agreement
It’s one of the hardest thing to do is admit that you fucked up and made a mistake, but hay even NS is human, so what about we admit that the whole Brexit thing has distracted us from our goal.
Let’s call it and get on with it!
Many people will switch to Yes after Brexit, as we know. But a lot of those voters would be reluctant if the SG had not first tried their best to prevent Scotland leaving the EU.
As Sturgeon said in interviews in the latter half of 2016, a First Minister is obligated to serve all the people of Scotland, not just factions.
At very least, we’d find out what a million exploding gammon’s sounds like!
The only thing that is certain is you cant trust a westminster unionist
I would support theresa for a section 30 but you cant trust them
Theresa could not accept sno supportas it would be tantamount to letting the slave have power
Camy says:
26 April, 2019 at 11:51 am
It Does kinda make sense but would you trust a Tory to implement it?
1) May agrees & Signs off agreement
2) Brexit vote passes in WM
3) Government falls and/or May leaves
4) Boris tears up agreement
Nail on head !
Always keep your eyes on the prize.
I picture it like those In flight demonstrations…in times of emergency…always ensure your own Oyygen Mask is tied securely before trying to assist others.
Its going to be “The Frog and the Scorpion” though isn’t it with faux shocked folk saying “I cant believe Westminster fucked us!”
Sorry, I don’t agree.
While we are stuck in this Union we need to behave responsibly and use the little power that we have it a way that does the most good.
There is no ‘good Brexit’ (although I agree that ‘No deal’ is the worst).
If the SNP voted for May’s deal it would be a disaster for all of the countries within the U.K. A no deal Brexit would be worse but it would not be of our making. This may seem like a splitting hairs but it will be important when convincing No voters and dealing with rUK.
I don’t think we can prevent England and Wales from dragging the U.K. into the abyss but it is still important to vote against the disaster.
If, by some unlikely miracle, Brexit is prevented then so much the better. Dealing with rUK that is still within the moderating sphere of the EU will be better than sharing a land border with a failing Brexitania well on the road to totalitarianism. It may take a bit longer but the U.K. has shown how useless it is and how much contempt it has for Scotland (we would also have the rabid Brexiteers trying to get rid of us).
I also don’t think that May would keep any such Faustian bargain.
Regarding the SNP, Stu says: “They’ve become…a party of better devolution, not independence”.
Or, as I would put it: The SNP have become the best administrators of British colonial rule in Scotland.
“It’s not colonial administration” the SNP sycophants will moan.
Is devolution democracy when the democratically passed Continuity Bill is overturned by the unelected House of Lords?
Is it devolution democracy when the SNP are given a democratic mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland and the UK Govt simply refuse to recognise it?
The FM asserted the people of Scotland are sovereign, so assert it to the UK Govt and EU through the courts. There is a Charter of Fundamental Rights in the EU. There is the Claim of Right 1689. The SNP Scot Govt have made no attempt to uphold the vote of Scotland’s people to Remain.
Though I welcome the small steps the FM accounced, It is far too little, too late. There is so much that could have been said and practical action that could be taken via court action, pre-empting any opponent’s court action, but is rejected by the SNP.
Theresa May is mocked for kicking the can doon the road over and over again. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have done the same for years too.
I want independence, or at least Scotland operating as an equal sovereign partner of the UK, not as a colony.
I don’t want to vote for the best colonial administrators. I want to vote for Scotland’s freedom from colonial rule.
I want a real Scottish Government, not a Scottish Raj run by the SNP.
“It Does kinda make sense but would you trust a Tory to implement it?”
Clearly you’d need to make sure it was watertight, perhaps by holding the indyref first.
Brexit will go ahead – it is backed by the Tories and Labour. The issues at present are the Irish border and freedom of movement. Freedom of movement will end as it is supported by May and Corbyn who will both move closer to a Brexit conclusion after the local Gov and EU elections. Both parties are playing a long game in getting Brexit numbers and Labour don’t want to take the fall for enabling Brexit.
There could be a change in the UK remaining in the Customs Union – if this happens then it will be marketed and sold as something different to what we have today.
There will not be a second EU ref – Labour and the Tories have had a good number of chances at moving towards this being a viable option. At all times this option is shot down.
The SNP will not agree to ending Freedom of movement in the UK – so they will never be able to back a Brexit plan that ends peoples freedom of movement.
Scotland will be more than likely have been taken out of the EU by Westminster politicians and parties before an Inteyref is able to be held. If an agreement for Brexit cannot be concluded before Autumn Conference then Theresa May and the Tories are in real trouble (as an aside from all the hassle the rest of us must endure).
Well known in SNP circles this.
May deal is good for an independent Scotland and ultimately all Scots citizens.
Problem: unless that message is carried with steel the SNP would get leathered at the ballot box. Carries a lot of issues.
Tartan Tories x 10,000,000
“Problem: unless that message is carried with steel the SNP would get leathered at the ballot box. Carries a lot of issues.
Tartan Tories x 10,000,000”
Being called Tartan Tories by Labour doesn’t seem to have hurt them much so far.
“While we are stuck in this Union we need to behave responsibly”
The SNP’s responsibility is to Scotland. The UK is leaving the EU. Scotland doesn’t have to.
I have always held the view that there is more than one single track road to independence. It can come from Scottish voters ideally, but it can also be aided along by the resentment of English and Welsh voters who were forced to accept something they bitterly oppose. A Brexit deal that ties the UK indefinitely to the EU.
The outcry from the public down South against Scotland and the SNP would be significant, especially if Farage and the other parties do well.
The time to strike is now. That is how battles are won by the General with the element of up rise and decisiveness in their armoury.
Play every card available to cause friction and disharmony.
Callous yes, but we are in a struggle for something that justifies it. Our freedom.
The truth is Brexit is an economical disaster for the UK. Scottish Independence is a gargantuan economical disaster for rUK. And they know it fine. The pound will fall like a stone plunging the rUK into the mother of all depressions. Any deal with WM whatever colour Gov will not be honoured.
What Doug Bryce said.
“Many people will switch to Yes after Brexit, as we know. But a lot of those voters would be reluctant if the SG had not first tried their best to prevent Scotland leaving the EU.”
Sorry, but this is bollocks.
(a) The SG has been doing its best and it’s totally failed to shift the polls in any meaningful way. However, if you make it a reality rather than an abstract concept, people have to confront it and make a choice.
(b) As I keep saying, IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT THE POLLS ARE ANYWAY IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO HOLD A REFERENDUM.
(c) Rejoining the EU will get harder and harder every day we’re out of it, and our laws diverge further and further from the Acquis Communitaire, and also as people simply get used to Brexit. People get used to anything in time.
May wouldn’t offer that IMHO.
She knows she’s history as PM very very soon and isn’t going to be the one remembered for “breaking up our precious union”.
One of the tories might but I don’t think May will.
“The UK is never going to be a less attractive option”
Not so sure about that one Stu
As the boys in Bachman Turner overdrive used to say
You ain’t seen nothin yet, no no no baby you ain’t seen nothing yet.
Give it another 2 or 3 years and 70% will be begging to get the hell out.
I agree with a lot of what the Rev has said, it is not the SNP job to try and save England. But they were elected to Remain and I suspect they will always vote for this.
It also requires a level of trust in Westminster (all the unionist parties) that they will actually carry out what they agreed. This is a place that would happily rip up the GFA if they could to facilitate Brexit, an international treaty, how much respect would they have for one with just Scotland.
Also the MSM would have a field day with unionist that want to stay in both UK & EU, but could be swung to EU. It would be played out as pure opportunism.
And to be honest I’m not convinced Westminster would have respected the 2014 vote, pretty sure they would have been pushing for a confirmatory referendum (just like the one they currently oppose).
We are always up against it with near total MSM opposition and a state broadcaster where truth is controlled through a UK prism.
Agreed, it’s an offer only a fool would refuse. What I would say though is that she should only agree if the indyref2 power transfer is signed before the SNP vote for May’s deal.
I think our chance could come if May is ousted and Boris becomes PM.
Too many people outwith the SNP complain about SNP policy. Answer — Join the snp and change it or greet from the sidelines or vote tory /labour.
Revstu is bang on the money here.
The SNP seem obsessed with preventing brexit, rather than gaining independence. Now, it is all well and good, perhaps in the early days following the brexit referendum to have tried to stop brexit, but let’s be honest, they have just been spat on by London. Over and over and over again, they have tried to reason, and have been sneered at, laughed at told by Tories to ‘go home’, and even swore at in the house of commons. At what point will the SNP accept reality???
So, REV STU is absolutely correct. The focus now of the Scotgov should be to uphold their electoral mandate and the clear democratic wishes of the people of Scotland, and keep Scotland in the EU.
So, that will mean independence. Since it is abundantly clear that London doesn’t give a flying f*** what Scotland wants, and is hellbent on brexit (supported by both Labour AND Tories), then Scotland should use the leverage they have and back the brexit deal on the absolute provision that a referendum on Scottish independence, free of London interference (unlike last time) is held.
If they don’t, brexit will happen anyway.
This is what they should be discussing at the SNP conference.
For god’s sake, Nicola, get on with it. Both Labour and Tories support brexit, so it is going to happen no matter what, so Scotland should use the power they have to save Scotland, and give us independence.
THIS article is one of the many reasons I support Wings. THIS.
Let’s hope the SNP leadership read it, sniff the coffee and wake up to the reality of what is ACTUALLY going to happen whether they argue against it or not.
IMO sect 30 is a red herring. They didn’t exactly honour the vow or all the other promises made in 2014. The Britnats are just liars, full of deceit, that can never be trusted. Britnats believe England owns Scotland and they won’t give up their golden possession without trying every dirty trick in the book.
Britnats are phoney democrats. Continuing to request a sect 30 has the benefit of highlighting this fact.
They will continue to deny a sect 30 as long as Scotland has a decent chance of voting yes. A non sect 30 plan for independence is required.
The most important poll is the exit poll. Funny how they didn’t do one for the referendums. Well one that was publicised.
Capella@11.44
“IMO Westminster will cancel BREXIT before it will allow Scotland to escape”, the wife and I discussed this very subject last night, and came to the same conclusion, looks like an even madder few months ahead.
Tin foil bunnet and gum shields at the ready.
Or maybe…..we should wait and see…you know …wait another year or two, see what happens, then maybe wait and see for a wee while longer.
Meanwhile brexit happens, and Scotland is removed from the EU by force against its wishes.
but, but, but we could just wait and see, maybe until 2021, or maybe after the next scot elections, I mean what if it rains, or something else happens. Best wait a bit, eh?? just another year or two, let brexit’s effects trash the Scots economy first. Then people will be really angry, won’t they? eh? And maybe if we wait long enough, England will give us ‘permission’ to hold a referendum, if we ask really really nicely over and over again.
I can understand the posters on here who rage against the seeming delaying tactics of the SNP government, but they have to understand that not every voter in Scotland feels this way . Too many , at the moment , do not feel that Independence is the way forward – difficult as that may be to accept .
However , the time to bite the bullet is coming very soon , I feel .Before the end of this year !
I have suggested exactly this scenario previously – it is grown up time and that means thinking pragmatically – a pact with either Labour or the Tories. 35 seats can go a long way……but it would definitely need to be water tight.
Alas, it is outwith the control of the SNP, just being open to the idea though…….
Cries of ‘the SNP delivered Brexit’ would soon be forgotten as people focus on indyref2 and what our place in the EU would look like. We could be the gun that puts the poor miserable animal out of its misery.
He who dares…..
Hamish 100 at 1239
But isn’t that just a bit glib. How about the SNP leadership start paying attention to what indy supporters say, regardless. They are their CORE voters, after all.
If the SNP vote with the Tories on this monumental issue can you imagine the MSM up here? It’ll be like ’79 but on steroids with the Tartan Tories jibes, particularly when it turns into the disaster it’s going to be.
How do you think that’ll play with the Labour-voting electorate and those over a certain age?
I don’t know what the answer is but NS better have something up her sleeve. I’m not convinced she has though.
ahundredthidiot at 12 47pm,
Totally agree. Scotland could put them all out of their misery. England gets its brexit, which both Labour and Tories want, and Scotland gets independence and stays in the EU.
Rev Stu @ 12.16pm
A lot of Scots who are pro-UK and pro-EU would just have become disillusioned with all politics and given up voting if the SNP had not genuinely explored ways of avoiding Brexit.
As it is, Sturgeon has retained or gained respect from this group of voters, which will surely benefit Yes in indyref2.
Westminster can never be trusted. It is also worth noting that the EU have already made contact with the new Ukrainian president with a view to joining the EU. EU rules are not set in stone and look at our assets, re-joining the Eu will not be a great problem, the EU will come to us.
So you want the Scottish Government to support the Brexit policy of the Tory Government in London which we know will impoverish the people in the UK and in Scotland in particular will lead to the loss of 100,000 jobs or more.
How casually you throw people to the wolves and in pursuit of what exactly? Independence? How many people would support independence under those circumstances especially independence proposed by a Scottish Government whose policies in pursuit of independence have beggared the country as what you are proposing surely would?
Such a policy as you propose does not in any shape or form make the case for Scotland to pursue a different course such as that presented by independence whereas the route the Scottish Government has taken since the EU referendum has clearly signposted independence as the obvious choice.
They have proposed a policy, membership of the Customs Union and Single Market with freedom of movement (CU&SM) that would to a large extent protect the people of Scotland and its economy from the worst effects of Brexit. As any sensible and responsible Government should do.
Some have characterised this as ‘trying to save England’. No it is not. Any appearance of that being the case is merely a reflection of the current constitutional arrangement whereby to put the policy into effect Scotland must go through Westminster to implement what is a reasonable policy that any sensible Government should pursue to protect its people but of course the Tory Government with the support of its Labour handmaidens is not.
In proposing and pursuing this policy and being roundly ignored by Westminster the Scottish Government have very clearly demonstrated to the people of Scotland that the current settlement does not work for Scotland thus promoting Independence as a positive route to take. More clearly and more viscerally than any talk of ‘getting the gov we voted for’ or Scots votes only made a difference in 3 out of the last x number of GEs’
In promoting and pursuing CU&SM the Scottish Government have proposed a course, if adopted,that would protect Scotland’s economy ahead of Independence and during the interregnum between voting for independence and becoming independent. Thus ensuring the economy is strong enough to withstand the hit that independence might bring. It might also mean that in the immediate aftermath of independence the EU might allow Scotland to continue in the CU&SM while the terms and conditions of full membership are negotiated.
So nothing whatsoever to do with saving England but everything to do with ensuring the well-being of Scotland and the people of Scotland and demonstrating conclusively that independence is the only guarantor of ensuring that.
Millsy at 1247
Yes, but opinions on independence will not change until such time as a referendum is called. In any other circumstances, the media ignore the idea. We need the referendum called.
I “think” Brexit will happen with or without our “cooperation”, but I think we are better placed strategically to let the Brexiteers make it happen. If they don’t appreciate the Union dies if Scotland is subjugated, then they cannot deny having been given adequate warning.
All this fuss about a Section 30 Agreement, and whether it’s necessary or not, is essentially the same Constitutional argument about whether a Referendum vote to “be” Constitutionally Sovereign is undone, either by being sovereign already and empowered to hold any vote you like, or, not being Sovereign before the vote, in which case your vote has no “sovereign” potency, and nobody is obliged to respect it. – See Catalonia.
God, what a mess. We tie ourselves up in knots, and we allow the Union to tie us up in even more knots because our own appreciation of what Constitutional Sovereignty actually means is such a complete dog’s breakfast.
For long enough, we thought returning an SNP majority to Westminster was our ticket to freedom. Clearly not. Some opinion contends that Alex Salmond somehow forfeited Scottish Sovereignty in negotiating a Section 30 Agreement for 2014. Now it’s Referendum to be held under “lent” Sovereignty or special dispensation???
The Union is like a magic porridge bowl, but instead of producing a never ending supply of porridge, it produces endless obfuscation and sophistry designed to surround Scottish Sovereignty with an impenetrable mire of confusion and ambiguity. But for all of that complexity and confusion, there is an inescapable truth that Westminster has not got the authority to wield or alter the Sovereign Constitution of Scotland which is enshrined within the people. Somewhere in the muck lies that unalterable certainty, and the Westminster Establishment continually strives to make sure we never grasp it.
It is a fiction to believe Westminster can, or has, removed that Sovereignty from the people, and it is an equal fiction to believe the Scottish people can by accident or design “vote away” their sovereign birthright. Do you understand the word fiction? It is not true. It is made up. It is not fact. We are still the sovereign citizens of Scotland.
I’m sorry, but the whole Independence Movement seems blithely indifferent to the essential ramifications of what being sovereign actually means, and as a direct consequence, we have no permanent grasp of where the finishing line actually is. We have no concrete understanding of which votes matter, and why they matter, and where, when or why they don’t. We are overthinking this issue over, and over again. Jesus it’s tiresome.
Just by way of example. Take the 2014 Referendum Question. Should Scotland be an Independent Country? Voting YES would have ended the Union, voting NO manifestly didn’t, but Constitutionally, voting NO was just as sovereign an edict as voting YES would have been, so in Constitutional terms, the 2014 YES Referendum was Constitutionally void. Do you see? What did it actually decide??? All that effort put into deciding the wrong thing. We were sovereign before the vote, and no less sovereign after it.
We don’t need any “new” Constitution. What we really do need is essential clarity on the sovereign Constitution we’ve already got. Scotland’s Sovereignty is lawful, robust and extant, which means Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty is unlawful, flawed, and ultra vires. It is NOT POSSIBLE TO DUAL SOVEREIGNTY in the way the United Kingdom presents itself. Sovereignty is an absolute binary condition. You are, or you are not. Grasp that concept, and you will know EXACTLY where the finishing line is.
Just the other day there you were telling us that we were caught in the trap of never finding ourselves in the position of acquiring a Section 30 Order and now this!
“Independence may be the SNP’s primary if not sole reason to exist”, however Nicola Sturgeon is FM for all of Scotland, hence fighting to keep us in the EU. Brexit is not the only issue that gives them a mandate for IndyRef2 either, for example the newspapers right now are making a meal of the fact that the SNP don’t have a majority of Scots supporting Independence. If we did Brexit would count for nothing.
It’s a crazy idea and seemingly just another article enabling the dissing of Nicola Sturgeon.
Scotland’s more important to Westminster than Brexit. Theresa May, of the Conservative and Unionist Party, will never go down in history as the PM that dissolved the Union. We can forget that one.
Starlaw at 1250pm
Or, we could become independent and just stay in the EU.
Scotland needs to feel the scorched earth reality of a hard brexit to turn demand for indy into an unstoppable force imo, bring it on.
[…] Wings Over Scotland From the mouths of eggs We got a tweet this morning from one of those odd Twitter accounts that’s been going […]
It strikes me the SNP have not mentally left the UK. Unfortunately, that seems to be a position representative of too many Scots – including many who call themselves nationalists. Until they do, they’ll always be carrying water for England, and they can play the chippy jock till the cows come home, but it’ll be London having the last laugh.
I keep seeing people say things like, ‘well, brexit when it happens, will definitely end the union’. How?? Just how will brexit end the union?
People utter this as though it is a universal law of nature, yet it isn’t. Do you not think that Westminster has already put in place its very own plans post brexit, to keep Scotland in its place, under London’s boot??
People might be annoyed when brexit happens, they may even be angry, but that won’t end the union.
like a lot of people I use wings as a filter on the MSM – saves time – but unlike a lot of wingers, I suspect, I go wandering far afield …
this is what MIDDLE ENGLAND REALLY THINKS –
england is ruined because of multiculturalism
– it was yourup wot dun it
– if we leave the EU, then its “wogs aht” and soon
a NEW BRITISH EMPIRE
– the “anglosphere” will be only too happy to help us – white people unite !
– tommy robinson ! our nige ! batten is our boy ! jacob rees mogg !!
enoch was right
mosley wasn’t wrong
there is also a residual class angle – the north – the old ex-working class – look down south at the london elite, the bbc/guardian middle class who did great out of thatcherism – those whose jobs WERE NOT sent east … and they HATE them and just want to hurt them; a bit of a peasants revolt
when people are really nuts, there is nothing you can do for them, but walk away – there is SO MUCH totally wrong with their analysis (- most immigration comes from the commonwealth … etc) – you wouldnt know where to start, never mind change their minds, but what for …
this little englander crows about “inglund fuh thuh inglish” – failing to point out that “inglund” for them includes scotland, ireland (all of it), wales … and india, USA etc as well if they could manage it
I was watching royston vasey live the other night and I used to be awed by the “dark, grotesque” comedy – now it just seems like a fly on the wall documentary
– are you local / they want to touch the precious things … hard brexit now edward!
get out. get out now.
the ball is on the spot. the keeper is smoking skunk. the defenders in the tunnel playing cards. everyone is screaming – kick it …
– but we still need to actually make a move.
there seems to be some residual belief that -somehow- the “english left” and the “bbc/guardian liberals” are our allies – but they aren’t – they are also unionists; stop trying to triangulate some compromise deal with them.
the “english left” are also a bust – galloways tired bromides about the “working class of glasgow and liverpool” – the english working class are also at heart little englanders, and when thrown a bone – will sing GSTQ like the rest of them; they like the idea that “to be born an englishman is to have won lifes lottery”. fuck them too. (- this drove karl marx nuts)
I see a (not so) wee problem with this idea.
It will be difficult to argue that we are being taken out of the EU against our will if we have voted FOR taking the UK out.
I know the MSM don’t need any excuses to get in about the Yes movement, but this would hand them a big stick with which to beat harder. It could turn into the next “Youse voted Thatcher into power” moment.
@ Legerwood at 12:51pm ….
Excellent post Legerwood.
Radio Shortbread this morning-
House of Lords say end index linked pension, free bus passes, free TV Licences for over 75’s and end the Fuel Benefit?
What a hideous clump of parasites the HoL is.
The need Ermine Robs, £300 per day to sleep, have subsidised food an Drink, etc and they have the nerve to say our pensioners don’t deserve the benefits they worked for over 50 years.
Our pensioners have the 4th worst support across the 28 EU Nations. Smaller countries like Ireland provide much better support and they didn’t benefit from a sea of oil rolling in for the last 45 years.
How about Norway or Germany were pensions are 3 or 4 times that of the UK.
Westminster has the nerve to say that the UK is rich and powerful. Only for the rich and powerful it is.
So these cuts could make the UK the worst of all EU Nations
and these parasites recommend it.
Yes let’s do this and ensure further reductions on Corporation Tax, Inheritance Tax and the Top rate of Tax.
To think this makes sense to pensioners is complete insanity.
Yet another reason to get well shot of England’s political mess.
It is a real concern when this blog produces articles which appear to agree with utter morons like coco.
It is an airy fairy concept anyway, as Treeza will never ever offer such a thing, and if the SNP offer it and get laughed at, that will only damage the SNP.
Athanasius at 1257pm
I agree, the mindset within the SNP is still very London centric, still playing by London’s rules, which apply to everyone except London. They should instead be thinking and behaving as a sovereign country, and stop giving so much credence to what Westminster thinks and says. They treat us with contempt, so it is about time we reciprocated.
No other country in the world would tolerate this tawdry undemocratic ‘union’ for one second. That should be number 1 item on Scotgov business from now on.
The SNP are only the vehicle we must purchase a ticket for to reach our final destination. They might not necessarily be my choice for an independent Scotland, but they are the only one realistically going to my chosen destination.
I have put the SNP as my vote above all other considerations.because of their promise to independence.
If I can do that,why can’t they?
Off topic:
Just watched Angus Robertson on Politics Live.
God how we need him back!
Two ways of seeing this.
No ideas – missing a chance, and seriously hindering an opportunity.
Or
Try your hardest, but watch things fall apart down south while ignoring Scotland, try everything.
but why the 2nd option?
To persuade soft No’s that you tried everything and illustrate how broken the union is.
Breeks’s post at 12:53 is one that’s worth reading over a few times. Did you read it? Ok, read it again.
SNP won’t go along with any deal that doesn’t have CU and SM as part of it, imv. They voted against the CU amendment on one of the meaningful votes, had to repeatedly clarify afterwards that a CU was not sufficient to prevent the economic fallout that would result in Scotland, as we need FOM to maintain our economy.
If by ‘saving’ the Peace process by allowing NI to diverge from rUK’s UKexit to maintain no hard border we find ourselves exiting with England and Wales, how does that give us any chance/opportunity to ‘stay’ within the EU and get out of the UK…at the exact same time?
If in your above scenario the SNP did go along with a CU only option to get ‘May’s’ deal through in exchange for an Indy2 Sec 30, we’d still be exiting ‘before’ our indy2 could take place as the ratification would be swift as fuck from the EU27, do we seriously think that the EU27 will wait for Scotland to have an indy2 before ratifying UKexit on terms that they have already agreed to wrt to WA?
That the EU27 would suffer any further extension period for this to happen?
And I do agree with some other comments wrt the ‘optics’ on this, SNP would be spun as the handmaiden’s of UKexit, I don’t think they should touch this with a barge pole even for a Sec 30 order.
Do we want Independence?
Will we do anything to get it?
Is Independence more important than the SNP and the rUK?
Ask yourself this, is keeping the SNP in power in Holyrood and as a presence in Westminster indefinitely more important to you than Independence?
If so, do you really want Independence?
@ Gary 45% – TBH – Nobody will stand up in Parliament and say “We are cancelling BREXIT”. They will say “We are delivering BREXIT”. Then there will be endless prevarication about what everything means. It will go on for decades.
So once the Scottish Government passes the legislation needed for a referendum they will go ahead with or without a S30 and Westminster will have to go to court to prevent the inevitable. IMO.
“Give it another 2 or 3 years and 70% will be begging to get the hell out.”
That’s not how humans work. People get used to things. People got used to the Blitz. They got used to life in Stalingrad. Brexit won’t impact all that many people in immediately obvious ways, and even if it does we’ll still just get the same arguments that “independence will make everything even worse!”
Yes, I’m sure Westminster would agree to that and then immediately renege on such a deal. “Thanks for passing my deal, SNP but no, I’ve changed my mind. Scotland’s not getting a second indyref.”
I’d sooner trust a fox in a chicken coop before I’d trust any sort of deal or agreement made with Westminster politicians.
“Nicola Sturgeon is FM for all of Scotland, hence fighting to keep us in the EU”
Yes, that’s exactly right – for all of SCOTLAND, not England and Wales which voted to leave the EU. Independence is the only way to keep Scotland in the EU. Her responsibility to Scotland is to achieve that.
“Yes, I’m sure Westminster would agree to that and then immediately renege on such a deal. “Thanks for passing my deal, SNP but no, I’ve changed my mind. Scotland’s not getting a second indyref.””
Fucksake, I really hate it when people comment without reading the rest of the comments first.
“I see a (not so) wee problem with this idea.
It will be difficult to argue that we are being taken out of the EU against our will if we have voted FOR taking the UK out.
I know the MSM don’t need any excuses to get in about the Yes movement, but this would hand them a big stick with which to beat harder. It could turn into the next “Youse voted Thatcher into power” moment.”
Sigh. Labour have been banging on about 1979 for 40 years. Where has it got them? Third place. Who gives a fuck what they say?
The SNP will NOT have voted “for taking the UK out”. They’ll have voted to give Scotland a chance to stay in, while respecting the democratic wishes of England and Wales and doing what they can to protect Ireland.
“We don’t need any “new” Constitution. What we really do need is essential clarity on the sovereign Constitution we’ve already got. Scotland’s Sovereignty is lawful, robust and extant, which means Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty is unlawful, flawed, and ultra vires. It is NOT POSSIBLE TO DUAL SOVEREIGNTY in the way the United Kingdom presents itself. Sovereignty is an absolute binary condition. You are, or you are not. Grasp that concept, and you will know EXACTLY where the finishing line is.”
Good luck declaring UDI by yourself.
“In promoting and pursuing CU&SM the Scottish Government have proposed a course, if adopted”
If we’re dreaming, I’d also like a castle.
I’m completely torn with this.
I don’t like the idea of agreeing with Tories, but agree it would get England what it voted for.
Still trying to work my way through the pros and cons and may have to go lie down for the rest of the day!!
Hey Stu, thanks for this conundrum…not! 😀
“People get used to things. People got used to the Blitz. They got used to life in Stalingrad…… “ Not to forget Gazza
Not sure that there was any choice involved during The Blitz Stalingrad or life in Gazza. Other than the obvious.
Will people forget that we have a way out . . . The Yes movement won’t let them, on the other hand the Tories(if they haven’t split and still in power) will attempt to avoid a cliff edge, trying to introduce the downfall over a period of time eg. Gove’s talking about maintaining farm payments for 5 yrs . The amnesia helped along by the propaganda outlets So it would be a battle between Yessers and the Establishment trying to conceal the downfall.
That’s not how humans work. People get used to things. People got used to the Blitz. They got used to life in Stalingrad. Brexit won’t impact all that many people in immediately obvious ways,
That’s a load of bollox Stu, I think the people wanted an end to both the blitz and Stalingrad. Brexit will affect people in many immediately obvious ways.
Higher prices.
Lost jobs.
Property price falls.
Bigger cuts.
Restricted travel & residency.
Nicola is dead right playing the long game here, if we give England enough rope they will undoubtedly hang themselves……let them feckin swing….it’s only then that the soft no’s will swing our way and victory is virtually assured.
A lot of Yessers seem to suffer from premature ejaculation at the moment. The Brexit debate is only foreplay….it’s when Westminster deliver Brexit (against Scotland’s wishes) that we can really move in and fuck them.
Bottom line is, the SNP dosn’t have the confidence that indyref2 can be won right now. over hearing the conversations of soft nos at my work so far that pessimism is well founded.
Now that IS an entertaining belter of a proposition, but I suspect that politically and culturally it would never happen. So:
1. Brexit plays out to its denouement
2. Scotland is out of the EU.
3. A referendum is held in Scotland (without a S30 as it has not been forthcoming) as an expression of the people’s political will.
4. The result is an overwhelming mandate for an independent Scottish nation state (within or without the EU)
5. At some point in time, the legalities of the necessity of obtaining a S30 are judged in the UK supreme court.
6. If not favourable, then the Scottish Government takes its case of this sovereign people to the United Nations and international law.
7. Scotland is recognised as an independent nation state.
But 90% of us will have shuffled off our mortal coil by then, so can history just speed up a bit and get on with it?
I wonder if it is time to organise civil disobedience to achieve either scottish independence or the right of the Scottish parliament to hold a referendum legally without section 30 in future? Maybe something emulating india and muhatma ghandi or what lithuania did to achieve independence from their soviet union.
While Nicola is in charge I will go with her judgement. One has to trust our leader who has a better view of what is going on.
I would like to know what Salmond thinks – he is a wheeler dealer and as the Queensferry Crossing and Megrahy showed knows how to deal cards.
They could indeed follow your suggestion Stu. But I really think the SNP are stuck in their own heads over this. They seem to not want to get off this peoples vote idea.
It was a move the Nicola took in order to appear to be doing everything before jumping to independence. So as to appear like they were only going for indy as a final last resort. When in fact it should be independence first and always first.
They could even agree just to opt out of the voting on the deal. they could argue that it was for the people of England and Wales to decide. The reasoning being that Scotland would then decide for itself in a referendum after the deal is passed.
However the most likely outcome now is more of the same, waiting for a favourable wind. Like a ship stuck in the doldrums.
They have painted themselves into a corner, and are afraid of the messy walk to freedom.
O/T
FMs recent announcement really has the BritNats rattled.
R4 currently rerunning radio play “First World Problems.”
“the five-part series was commissioned off the back of the Scottish Independence Referendum and the UK’s vote to leave the European Union” and first aired in June 2018.
Advertised as “What would happen if the UK broke apart? In this everyday story of British folk, David and Ruth Fletcher face our next civil war.”
“Martin Jameson’s drama draws on detailed research from BBC correspondents to analysts, contingency planners, and those with first hand experience of the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s, to make the Fletchers’ adventures a compelling account of what civil war could do to us all.”
That’ll raise the Blood Pressure in the Home Counties and straight on after The Archers.
😉
Shug – It’s your choice but the evidence suggests that Nicola is all over the place with her logic. She has made an error of judgement. The evidence being that we are 3 years down the line and not a step closer to a referendum.
My trust in leaders is not blind. When they are on the wrong path it’s up to us to point it out. We cannot just keep saying trust Nicola. We all have as much insight into the future as Nicola does.
Sometimes leaders get it wrong the same for all of us.
Also in other news:
“HMS BBC Scotland sent to the Clyde as tension over IndyRef2 rises”
link to mobile.twitter.com
🙂
Independence should always be front and centre
“If the SNP were to vote for Theresa May’s deal in exchange for a second indyref they’d be doing the rest of the UK a service”
I am sorry Rev, but I disagree with you on this in the strongest possible terms.
In my view the SNP does not have a mandate to surrender in to the kingdom of England our consent for brexit. We have not consented for brexit, our parliament has not consented for brexit. The SNP, the exact same as the hypocrites in Scottish seats from labour, tories and lidbems do not have a mandate to vote for brexit on our behalf, and I am sorry, but voting for that stupid deal is voting for brexit, aka giving our consent for brexit via the back door – that is exactly what May and her minions like Mundell and the “legal tory brain” in Holyrood are desperate to get.
In my view, should the SNP do that, and they would be killing of immediately any reason to have an indyref – to take us out of the EU against our will. In addition, that backstop is a huge disadvantage for Scotland, who will not longer be at the same level as NI to compete for trade and business.
No, I am of the opinion that the SNP must reject brexit until their last breath and fight as hard as they can to overturn brexit for the entire UK. Why?
Because this is a union of equals and frankly, Scotland, an equal partner, has as much right as the Kingdom of England to determine the direction of travel of the UK.
It is for the UK gov to decide how to merge both diametrically opposed views, not for the SNP to do so. What the UK gov should have done was to reject Brexit on the basis of lack of consensus between the 2 partners of the UK, but they chose to pander to the VIP taxdodgers and foreign interests instead.
If the UK was a real democracy, brexit would have stopped right on its tracks the day after the EU referendum, when it was evident that only the kingdom of England had voted for brexit.
If the UK was a democracy, the immediate step would have been to offer the Kingdom of England the option to vote to dissolve the UK so they could leave the EU or to remain in the EU so the UK could be preserved.
But the coward England MPs will never grow the backbone for that, so they are doing exactly the opposite: to force the kingdom of England’s will over Scotland and to force Scotland to have the referendum instead. Why?
Because it is easier for them to control a small referendum while they have control of broadcasting, MSM, funding etc, etc and no matter what result they will not lose their seats. Should they have to face a referendum in England and they would be facing losing their seats and the impossibility of having their cake and eat it: brexit + retaining Scotland in the UK. No, such a referendum in England would mean that they can only have one of the two.
“Circumstances are never, ever going to get better than now. The UK is never going to be a less attractive option”.
Some see it, some don’t and like any golden opportunity summoning the courage to seize it may be the toughest bit. In ‘conservative’ cultures like Scotland such intitiative may frighten the natives.
Being prepared to risk that is the mark of true leadership. The goal is certainly worth the stake.
Another article that had to be written, but with which I largely disagree.
Intentionally or not, it covers the Devil’s Advocate position very thoroughly.
I personally would not do a deal with either the Tories or Labour.
Let the UK crash out of the EU or let May get her bad deal through Westminster. Both are wins for Scottish independence.
Then we have our referendum, with or without an S30.
If we do not gain independence, it’s not the end of the world.
Remember, we were told in 2014 that it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity…….it wasn’t.
It’s certainly an Idea worth floating!
While I don’t think that the SNP would go for it and that it could actually happen with the watertight as possible arrangements we’d need.
That the SNP would do this,would set the cat among the pigeons for how the Brexit supporters respond in having to dial back the hate towards the party who could actually deliver Brexit.
The remain supporters (the ones who are only friendly while our MPs are backing what they want) would have the rug pulled from under their campaign and show what fairweather friends they really are..
But the main thing is,what exploring this would do,is flush out the House of Lord’s position….
If I remember right, in 2014 when Yes was pulling ahead,the Lord’s started to question if David Cameron actually had the right to agree to the Section 30 order in the first place. (loosely the Gina Miller approach, that Government couldn’t just go ahead with such a far reaching approach to Constitutional change)
The Lord’s were looking for a way to void the 2014 referendum!
Sooo… In theory if May looks like offering a referendum for Brexit,it will set the Lord’s and the Commons head to head and potentially clarifying how watertight any Section 30 would be under any conditions.
All the while causing more chaos in Westminster and still not delivering Brexit…. I like your thinking Rev… While and if we’re to be in this bloody Union,we need to be letting Westminster know it!!
If you want independence for Scotland, be here:
link to united4yes.org
link to howmanydaystill.com
Be front and centre
“We’ll have to wait and see what happens”: Comrade Nicola is working within the sound-framework of Leninist strategic principles, in as much as, because the unenlightened masses will always be impatient with the omniscient march forward of the Party, they have to be promised jam – tomorrow.
One problem is of course that May can’t even get her own deal through the UK parlaiment, let alone be certain to get an S30 through! So the S30 would have to be done and dusted first, Royal Assent the lot – or better still, permanent devolution of the ability to hold a referendum at any time.
The main selfish problem though is that if the rUK gets its economy in a poor state, that affects our economy too.
The unselfish one for our family, friends and neighbours? Yes indeed, save them from themselves. It’s a moral duty because, like it or not, we’ve co-habited for 312 years.
Think of the children!
From Business for Scotland on currency debate:
link to businessforscotland.com
Put simply, any fully empowered government, of any colour, using any currency, governing Scotland from Holyrood to put Scotland’s interests first will always deliver better outcomes for Scotland than any Government of any colour, governing Scotland from Westminster with Scotland’s interests subjugated by those of the larger nation.
So the question is what currency option should an independent Scotland adopt?
BfS gave clear evidence to the SGC that the best solution was to say that Scotland will have its own sovereign currency when it becomes advantageous to do so. So to begin with there would be no change to the currency used by the people of Scotland but when it benefits the people of Scotland to move to a sovereign currency we will do so.
No set timescales, no dogmatic adherence to instant new currency because it’s the nationalist thing to do, let’s just make sure that when it works in our favour we can launch the currency and thrive. Flexibility is key in this approach, the Scottish Parliament should have the power to make the change when the time is right and that means that the SNP’s six tests are not flexible enough.
Robert Louis says:
26 April, 2019 at 12:59 pm
I keep seeing people say things like, ‘well, brexit when it happens, will definitely end the union’. How?? Just how will brexit end the union?
Well, the conventional belief seems to be that the act of dragging Scotland out of the EU against it’s democratically expressed will constitutes and act of colonial subjugation which is incompatible with the Treaties of Union, and will leave the Union formally “breached” and thereby at an end.
Essentially, it’s our line in the sand, though technically, I think Westminster’s Article 50 Notification might have served equally well.
Another problem is that if Scotland voted YES to Indy, but the rUK Brexits and it’s a disaster as expected, the iScotGov would have to at least double the international Aid budget from the anticipated 0.75% to 1.5%, possibley quadruple to 3%. and probably a lot more, to provide international aid to our much larger neighbour.
Damn, we’d also have to borrow a lot more money to lend to them, in a similar way the UK lent money to Ireland in its post-2008 troubles while running a deficit, hence increasing its own borrowing.
Robert Louis @ 12.59
It’s not only the subjugation of Scotland’s status ( Breeks @ 3.09)that Breeches the Treaty.
The N.Ireland backstop puts Scotland at a Trading disadvantage and that’s the one thing Treaty was actually not ment to do…
That’s why May couldn’t agree to it for N.Ireland only!
The party ( SNP ) that is promoting the fact that Scotland voted remain should then agree a pact to vote to enable scotland to leave the EU to happen ( after previously supporting a peoples vote ) to get a sec 30 is just totally BONKERS. Totally bonkers. A joke. It will not happen. It’s the most nonsense I’ve heard for some time.
“Taken out of the EU AGAINST OUR WILL. “. That’s what the mandate for indyref2 says. How does the SNP facilitating this become against our will.
Final word – BONKERS.
@Petra “It’s a crazy idea and seemingly just another article enabling the dissing of Nicola Sturgeon.”
Petra, the SNP conference is this weekend, a vitally important and potentially contentious one, and the Rev isn’t the only one trying to get ideas and different views listened to, using whatever influence or media we have.
For that, now IS the time.
It does kind of make sense, but…. NEVER trust wastemonster!! Canny hits the nail on the head!!
Interesting post from “Frank Gillougley @ 0230pm. Not sure that (3) and (4) is necessary. (1) &(2) then skip to (5). Possibly (3) comes after (5) if favourable , otherwise (6). Thereafter (7) deemed by international court ( subject to referendum with or without section30).
Could it possibly be that our FM is considering something along these lines where a referendum is required to “ confirm” independence?
Well I am cheered by the thought that I am not the only person who thinks that the UK Govt regardless of its political colour will delay and delay Brexit to keep Scotland under its larcenous thumbs and jackboot. It is also obvious no Tory is going to keep to any agreement in relation to Brexit with any sort of deal in place. What bugs me is that the SNP and their apologetic sycophants appear to be utterly oblivious to these obvious scenarios.
I have said it before as other have said it. There will be no Referendum in our lifetimes after 2021 as Holyrood will have an anti Scottish coalition running it and changing the rules so that no Pro Indy majority is possible ever again. Too many of us know this in our guts and the SNP refuse to see it. Our Yoon Lords and Master aren’t going to play fair. When are the SNP and their sycophants going to waken up?
Rant over for now!
“They’d earn at least the grudging respect of those troublesome Yes Leavers”
As one of those ‘troublesome’ Yes Leavers, my rational has always been this: I see little point in winning our sovereignty from a racket in London, only to hand it over to another racket in Brussels. In saying that, I would take an indy Scotland in the EU tomorrow, if it were offered. Indy is always the number one priority, the rest can be sorted later.
Another point I’d make is this: people have rightly asked me what my vision is for Indy Scotland if we’re out o the EU and the UK.
The answer to that is simple – Scotland becomes a member of EFTA, like Norway and Switzerland. I’d quite happily pen a article for Wings, outlining this option, but the main points are this.
1. If we’re in EFTA, we’re in the EEA, so we have access to the Single Market, so jobs and business is protected. And we benefit from the geopolitical ‘shield of being close to, but not part of, the EU. That keeps us safe from the predators of the USA and China, and gives us clout when dealing with what rump remains of the UK.
2. Workers still have free movement in the EEA, so Scotland’s needs, especially it’s demographic needs, are protected.
3. We get farming and fisheries back. Look at Norway and Iceland.
4. We can pay into EU programs we want to be a part of, and although we’d still have to make a small contribution to the EU budget, we’d be free of things such as the ECJ having a say in our domestic affairs.
5. We’d be able to strike our own trade deals around the world. EFTA has been successful in Singapore and South America, as an example.
6. As a small nation of 5 million people, not looking to dominate other EFTA nations, and ready to work with other smaller nations, we’d be welcomed in with open arms.
That’s just a few of the bonuses indy Scotland would get in EFTA. EEA/EFTA is a credible and proven treaty framework of many decades, and many of the myths of Norway being a rule-taker, are just that: myths.
“Taken out of the EU AGAINST OUR WILL. “. That’s what the mandate for indyref2 says. How does the SNP facilitating this become against our will.”
If there’s a referendum between remaining in the EU via independence, and leaving it by staying with the UK, and Scotland votes for the latter, it’ll no longer be against our will. The people will have chosen their fate.
“Well, the conventional belief seems to be that the act of dragging Scotland out of the EU against it’s democratically expressed will constitutes and act of colonial subjugation which is incompatible with the Treaties of Union, and will leave the Union formally “breached” and thereby at an end.”
That is NOT the “conventional belief”. That’s the belief of random internet nutters. If you want to bet £1 on the Scottish Government declaring independence on the grounds that the Acts Of Union have been breached, I’ll happily give you odds of a thousand billion trillion to one, and then I’ll go and spend your pound on crisps.
“Because this is a union of equals”
It really, really, really, really, really isn’t.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
26 April, 2019 at 1:33 pm
Good luck declaring UDI by yourself.
No UDI Rev Stu, but what if we asked the ECJ to clarify it’s judgement on Article 50, and in particular whether the sovereign prerogative to revoke Article 50 might be exercised unilaterally by Scotland, based upon Scotland’s Sovereignty, the Claim of Right, and Scotland’s democratic majority to remain in 2016.
Where is the harm in asking?
If they say yes, we either do it or negotiate from a position of absolute strength. If they say no, then we are no worse off than where we are now, but when Westminster recognises the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people, then in any rational judgement, how can the ECJ come to any different conclusion? What’s not to like about our Sovereignty being affirmed and our right to revoke Article 50 unilaterally being confirmed?
Oh, how tired I am of all the pointless and circular arguments about Brexit, borders and independence.
During the run up to the referendum, as we are all aware, one of the biggest arguments against independence was Scotland would be unable to remain in the EU. And now we are debating whether Scotland should consider the rest of UK, as various political factions try to avoid a hard Brexit.
Brexit will happen. Especially as the soft Brexiters see it slipping away from them. A hard Brexit is better than no Brexit, in the eyes of the right. There will be a final bill passed and the UK will be out of the EU. There will be no need to participate in the EU elections.
Imagine if there were a debate, vote or choice forcing the Tories (and others) to choose between Brexit or keeping Scotland in the Union, they would overwhelmingly vote for the latter.
Why? Because Scottish Independence would mean the end of ‘Great Britain’ in the eyes of many Southerners. From their precious flag, to the shared history of the UK, to Scotland seeking a different political and economic path, to the simple ‘completeness’ of the coastline of this island. Just as continuing membership of the EU is the end of Great Britain in their eyes, and they hark back to the ‘good ole days’, so is Scottish Sovereignty.
(Of course, we do not see it like this. Why should we? We don’t consider that we ‘own’ England, and the rest of the British Isles. Nor do we confuse political unions with geography.) We think similarly to Salmon’s old adage, ‘England would lose a surly lodger and gain a good neighbour.’
During the Referendum, the Unionists used a variety of arguments, like giant rubber batons, to beat the independence debate and the nationalists senseless. We referred to it as project fear, smear and sneer.
During Brexit, there has been little emphasis on Scottish Independence. It’s almost been subsumed and subdued by the ongoing Brexit political clusterfuck that started three years ago.
There has however, been an ongoing anti-Independence propaganda project run out of Westminster. Hard to prove, easy to feel. Anyone who doesn’t believe that Scottish Independence is not tabled at the Westminster Security Council, as a ‘threat to the UK’, is delusional.
Anyone who imagines that Holyrood’s patience during Brexit is rewarded by Westminster’s accommodation, are frankly naïve and have forgotten the Vow.
After Brexit. And I am convinced that it will happen, due to the sheer duplicity and hegemony of the Tories, and the pig-headed, self-righteous ignorance of people like Farage and Tommy Robinson. After Brexit, Westminster will turn their attention to metaphorically shoring up the Great British Castle, quelling rebellions and executing ("Tractor" - Ed)s.
Any initiative for Scottish Independence at this time will be met with a Project Fear worse than before. Except, perhaps the main argument will be that the ‘EU won’t take you back’ etc. (Really, I don’t have to write this, we all know the words by this time)
The SNP should be pursuing Independence now. It should be clear that they are the party of Independence, not the Party of ‘Avoid Hard Brexit’
Forget Brexit. Forget the arguments that will return after Brexit. NATO, Currency, Borders, Pensions, Trident, Cost of Living and Oil. These were the subject last time, where Westminster propaganda beat our attempts at logic and common sense.
And the Fishing Communities of Scotland who are torn between Brexit and Independence, should recognise that only true self-government can ensure that they get the recognition as one of Scotland’s most important industries. (It will always be lesser to London business)
There will always be decisions, discussions and disagreement inside any country.
Who cares? The fact is these supposed important decisions are unimportant in the grand scheme of things. They are a step too far. And before you argue, ‘we need to know these things before voting YES’, let me say categorically that we don’t. And we will never all agree on them all anyway.
Instead, what we need to know is that Independence ‘will put a political mechanism in place that will allow us to make the right decisions for Scotland’.
We need to know that a YES vote will lead to an arrangement that really means, ‘…government of the people, by the people, for the people…’
We need to know that any decisions that are taken can be influenced and changed by the electorate.
We need to know that Scotland has the mettle, the confidence and the drive to take the reins of its own destiny and set out on a journey of hope, ambition, discovery and self-realization.
We already know we have the resources. We have the land, the industry and the people. We already know that we pay our own way within the UK. We already know that ‘we have what it takes to be an independent country’. A number of people have generously advised of this including the Brexit initiator, ex-Prime Minister, David Cameron.
I will say it again. We ONLY need to know that Independence will ensure that we have representatives in place that will take the right decisions for Scotland, and that we can vote them out the moment they don’t. Because this is exactly what they don’t have in England and what has led everyone to this ridiculous mess in the first place.
The UK is broken. Westminster is an archaic, anachronistic, hegemonic monstrosity that serves London, the Elite, the Establishment and the South. The fact that they seek to drag Scotland out of the EU against our democratic will is deplorable. It is simple hegemony.
Meantime, we should not be arguing about anything except a desire to get away from the Westminster mess and to manage our own affairs. Scotland should be allowed to take care of the needs or her own citizens, the best way possible, without the interference of Westminster or any other country. This is sovereignty.
We should focus on the argument that Scotland needs to take the decisions that are important for Scotland, in Scotland.
We need to pursue Independence now, not tomorrow or next year when Westminster has prepared again. Today. And we should do this assertively.
If NS promised anything to May in their last meeting… She should recant it. “Now IS the time. Now IS the time.
“It really, really, really, really, really isn’t”
The only way we are going to get others to believe on us is if we start to believe on ourselves first.
For as long as we continue pandering to the idea that Scotland is a subordinate in this union, we will be, deservedly, treated so.
Meanwhile the National is up to 6058 subscribers and looking for more and more:
link to thenational.scot
perhaps the SNP conferendce will put in a good word, as it was a Sturgeon Roadshow where it was launched by Richard Walker.
You know what I get really tired of, people saying that once brexit happens, it will be so bad that the polls for indy will shift. I really don’t think that is correct.
If I said to you three years ago, that by 2019 the entire uk will be a mess and will be planning on leaving the EU, even though Scotland voted overwhelmingly against it, you would also have said, ‘well; if that happens, Nicola will have to call a referendum on indy, and if that happens, everyone in Scotland will be so angry that they will be demanding independence’…and so on.
The fact is, ALL of that DID happen, but the polls have not shifted. So, suggesting that just one more thing..brexit actually happening, will tip things over the edge is just not realistic. People who are not political anoraks, mumble and grumble and talk of how they hate tories or labour or whatever, but they will get on with their lives, and will get used to it. And the full weight of the Uk gov media spin machine will be running on full power, with propaganda like most of us have not seen since the second world war.
All of history shows this to be the case.
To change a country, you need a leader to chart a course, and say ‘follow me’, and to try to take the people with them. You need to show the way. That is what Alex Salmond did. So far, since then, that has NOT happened.
Maria 359pm,
Quote “For as long as we continue pandering to the idea that Scotland is a subordinate in this union, we will be, deservedly, treated so.”
EXACTLY.
I think once Brexit actually happens and the effects bite, the last thing people in Scotland will want is more change, more disruption, and more risks. Support for Indy will plummet, possibly to pre-IR1 levels of 30% or less.
Eric Mclean at 359pm,
Well said. Every word. Excellent post.
yesindyref2,
I think you are right. People will be feart of any more change, and Westminster will make sure they are very feart. Indy needs to happen before, not after brexit.
The Tories would not agree to an independence referendum in support of a Brexit deal. Hell, I know people who’d rather live in a apocalyptic hellscape if it meant we do not have another indy vote.
The SNP *could* SAY they would support a Brexit deal in return for an independence referendum, but they would do a lot worse as many soft No’s would see the SNP as independence first, remain second.
Second of all, think back to the referendum. When people in the Yes camp said it would “once in a generation”, it was not because they would stop campaigning in the event of a No vote. It was because Westminster would never agree to another referendum having been so close to losing.
Frankly, the No (and Remain) campaign lied about this. The idea that “we could just vote for independence some other time”, or saying we would have another indy vote if we voted leave. It’s just a load of bollocks.
@legerwood
well said
also, is there time for indyref2 before the uk brexits? would the eu and wm delay enough for it to be held?
@sinky, 3.09
Flexibility is key in this approach, the Scottish Parliament should have the power to make the change when the time is right and that means that the SNP’s six tests are not flexible enough.
I don’t think that flexibility is the key. Planning is the key. The introduction of our own currency should be treated as our YKK issue so there is an end date in the near future (2-3 years from day 1 of independence). This would ensure that we maintain focus and momentum. We continue to use the current currency while we deal with all the issues – setting up a mint, designing the currency, adapting ATM machines, transfer of government revenue, taxation, pensions, mortgages, savings to the new currency, setting up a timetable for implementation.
If we do not have monetary sovereignty, we will never be free.
Interesting post, Rev, but I don’t think that it is realistic. The UK cannot be trusted. Look what happened before and after IndyRef1.
Methinks the site owner is playing devils advocate games.
An SNP pact with a British party to facilitate scotland leaving the EU is bonkers. This would be a massive trap. You can never trust the Britnats to honour anything.
Does everybody know that if you subscribe to ‘The National’ newspaper, you can get a free ‘wee ginger dug’.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Scroll to bottom of article for link.
One thing an iScotland doesn’t want is a near-failed state next door – which is possibly what would happen with no-deal.
I’m not surprised that another Loyalist Rangers type is trolling.
link to twitterleaks.club
I think more and more people are beginning to realise that a mother of all showdowns between Hollyrood and WM is looming. In fact, it is necessary. The thing is, the Brexit fog has yet to clear and when the can runs out of road (and it will), something has to give and that’s when we make our move.
Just because Nicola appears to be trapped or clueless or hesitant does not mean that she is. Far from it IMO. Nicola knows that the British establishment is desperate to know when and how she is going to move – it would be silly to broadcast this before the event. Nicola is keep her cards very close and that is what is really scaring the britnats. If they think they can scare us off with their threats of Catalan style nonsense, then let them try. Why interrupt them- they are only fooling themselves – dangerous!
IMO, NS will move when the time is right, and when she does, no quarter will be given. They won’t know what hit em. 🙂
NEVER EVER EVER TRUST A TORY!!
(Blue or Red)
This can’t ever be said enough. Self-serving bastirts the lot of them.
I don’t think that rejoining the EU will be to much of a problem.
With the biggest oil reserves in Europe, most of the fish, and the largest renewable energy resources in Europe we are sure to be readmitted.
And the rightwing troublemakers south of our country will not be missed in the European parliament.
It would be more principled for the SNP MPs to simply abstain. To vote for Brexit in any form then request a S30 for a new independence referendum, would be extremely hypocritical and could only damage the argument and prospect for independence. Agree with everything you wrote – it is indeed undemocratic for SNP MPs to thwart the will of the majority in the UK. Respect the views of the English and Welsh then make the case for a new direction.
Clearly you’d need to make sure it was watertight, perhaps by holding the indyref first.
Which, should Scotland stupidly vote NO a second time, then we keep our MPs at WM and tell Treeza-babes we’ve changed our mind, we’re no’ supporting here WA after all.
Bet she’d love the thought of that!
The Britnats have certainly got folks arguing amongst themselves haven’t they. They must be laughing into their champagne flutes paid for off the backs of the people of Scotland, as we all wonder what the hell is the best course of action for Scotland.
Supporting the Tories in any shape or form, goes against everything the SNP stands for imo.
I have not one scoobie what is the best way forward for Scotland right now, but, we keep our eye on the prize.
One thing, the Britnats, colonialists, do not play nice, they are scheming, lying, monied and powerful.
Scotland is up against a monster. We need our friends in rEU to get behind us, some already are. I am sure many in the SNP have the measure of things, including Nicola Sturgeon.
@Luigi
I’m just a punter and I don’t post every opinion, just in case it tips off the “enemy”. I daresay others are the same.
@Iain 2
Kirsty Hughes doesn’t think it’ll be a problem either, though I’d say she’s actually being over-cautious with the timeframes. I think it could be rushed, considering Scotland’s current position of potentially unwilling entrapment.
link to heraldscotland.com
I agree with Rev and a good few of the other comments about what happens after Brexit.
Once the U.K. has made its bed it will have to lie in it, all the wagons will be circled and the media will tell us all that Brexit is the best decision we have all made.
We will be fed shite and told it’s chocolate and the worst thing is that most people will believe it.
I appreciate the FM had a moral responsibility to attempt to prevent Brexit from within Britain, but that time is past. IMHO, the FM is cutting things awfy close, as Scotland may find itself outside the EU and at the tender mercies of Westminster and the Lords cobbling together a new British constitution, aimed at preventing further indy referendum.
Contemporary British nationalism has morphed into authoritarian English nationalism. It is the very essence of fascism, for one nation to infringe on the legal identity of another, especially when both are bound under the Treaties of Union. Time Scotland moved on, Brexit will cause irreparable harm to unborn generations.
Kissing Cousins: Nationalism and Realism
link to mearsheimer.uchicago.edu
There is a difference between now and 2014. The perceived wisdom peddled in the media has changed.
Back then it was ‘we subsidise you, you’d be stupid to leave.’ This was so embedded that no amount of argument could change that view. Somebody could appear to accept your argument on Scotland’s potential and then be back the next day parroting the same belief.
Today it is ‘we’re idiots, you’d be crazy not to leave.’ There’s an underwater earthquake of English exceptionalism that is only just starting to become apparent and these people are running screaming from the beach to warn us away from it. The ‘we subsidise the jocks’ brigade are fighting an unsuccessful rearguard action against this new narrative.
No voting relatives and colleagues say to me ‘leaving the union will be even worse than leaving the EU’ but you can’t see it in their eyes. The same conviction they had in 2014 has gone. It’s a politically convenient position, not a deeply-held belief. That’s because it is a message that has not had decades of repetition to burrow into their brains, and now there are just too many English voices in the media telling them the dumb thing is to stick with the UK.
A *big* difference in the mood music. People pick up on this more than they do any individual stories in the media.
Hmm. Now we’re knocking back opportunities and taking no risks
Perfect recipe for failure. Sounds like we’re still in steady as she goes mode that will eventually flounder on the rock of timidity unless some unforeseen event upends everything. We desperately need original thinking, boldness and probably a hero to save us now. Cant see any of those on the horizon.
Macron’s France, his rather peculiar idea of France, his European ‘vision’ and the influence of self-serving ‘globalism’.
link to americanthinker.com
Why we ought not to be reticent about being culturally nationalist.
Vive l’Europe libre! Vive l’Europe des nations libres!
Rev have the security services got to you with articles you have published recently?
The 77th brigade would be proud of these, your doing their work for them.
One in support of embodied sovereignty.
link to pdfs.semanticscholar.org
I’ve said all along that this Brexit is England’s problem. Scotland has made up her mind and it’s obvious from polls/surveys since it hasn’t changed.
We have to make a choice, do we want independence, or do we accept we’re staying part of the UK and fight to keep it in Europe. We really can’t do both at the same time, if we’re staying fair enough, but if we’re leaving, potentially swinging the vote and keeping England in the EU against her will is exactly what we complain about.
I for one will be spoiling any vote on Brexit and hope others do the same, imagine if there was a million spoilt votes from Scotland, it would actually show that Scotland recognises this is an English issue as we won’t be staying for the consequences.
Eric McLean 4.00pm A great post and needed said , as you said WE all know that our country and people could and will survive and prosper outwith the uk, but as Stu and others have said if we are pulled out of the EU without our independence we will be fcucked , the cowards and reticents will be toooo scared to even contemplate even more upset.
It will be ( not just now let’s wait until it has all settled down and see what our maisters are going to do ) or ( we can’t do it alone , we need to pool and share with the bigger country , or we are stronger together , any excuse will be used to delay or defer a vote
I agree with Stu , RL , Breeks , every avenue should be explored , utilised and done just now , even the constitutional appeal to the SC and the ECJ we cannot allow wastemonster to drive our bus
I have faith that NS wants indy but as others have said and I have said previously , NS was elected in Scotland by Scots to look after and PROTECT Scotland , not to protect the English and Welsh from their own stupidity
You only have to look at most of the btl comments in the msm and BBC to see that the brexshiteers have taken over the running of the asylum , even lots of the remainers just want it to be done , Nicola is wasting her and our time
Jamie@2.33
Civil disobedience will not work, we all know the MSM will be ready for total “gutter press” overload, and we will have to battle that on all fronts. Disobedience will only give them fuel for their gullible followers.
Calm heads and smiles when under attack, it riles them up even more, make the enemy “drop the mic”, and the “floating mibees aye, mibees naw voters” will choose the side of least aggression.
Maybe I am just a delusional old hippy??
schrodingers cat @ 4:16 pm
Yes there is time but even if there is not I think the period when iScotland is technically out of the EU will be very short.
Given the goodwill that the SG has assiduously cultivated over the last few years within the EU through its networking and contacts at ministerial level then the EU is likely to put forward a transition arrangement to tide us over to full membership.
An iScotland would be in the unique position of being fully compliant with all the criteria and conditions for entry therefore the EU granting such a transition arrangement would not be creating a precedent that would apply to other applicants.
Two points:
1. Brexit is going to happen in one form or the other. It has to, or else Conservative and Labour Leave voters in England will simply switch their votes to another party, and quite possibly in big enough numbers to prevent either party forming a new government by themselves for a long time – or, even worse, giving Farage and his ilk a run at some actual power.
Neither party wants to commit suicide and regardless of their internecine wars over the ideology behind Brexit, they both, but the Conservatives in particular, know that their supporters simply will not countenance not leaving Europe now that they have their chance, and those supporters really don’t give a damn about thinking past “foreigners out, stop the EU jackboots making our laws and taking our money” type nonsense.
Maybe, given that, offering a deal such as that proposed by Stu is a canny move. But, there is a good chance of it backfiring, as it would absolutely be portrayed by everyone else as SNP hypocrisy: “The SNP said they were dead set against Brexit, but voted for a deal on it anyway”. During any subsequent independence referendum this would be on 24/7 repeat. Maybe the feeling that this sort of pounding on the SNP would have no real effect is correct, but I’mn ot convinced.
2. The bigger problem for me, is that for all the talk of holding IndyRef 2 now, or later, there is one problem: there is no evidence that we have enough votes to carry the vote, anymore than we did the day after IndyRef 1. Some people have switched position over Brexit, and some Yes Leavers might switch again dependent on the outcome of the whole Brexit farce, and the possible effects of such a course, but right now that’s just guesswork. Maybe someone could ask the question in a poll of Yes Leavers. Of course, then the question of whether No voters who switched to Yes over the last four years would stay Yes in the event of an actual vote would also need to be asked – and that’s without wading into the sub camps of No/Leave and No/Remain voters.
Until that point, we can only go on the data we have. That comes from polls, and, as I pointed out the other day, it hasn’t really changed much in the last four and a bit years, and it says we don’t have the votes at this point. The simple fact is we have to convince more people.
As much as people here on Wings, and in other independence supporting locations, are frustrated over the lack of progress, and wish for independence, there are as many, and then some more, who are on the opposite side. And until we can show that those people can be convinced, even in the relatively small numbers required to shift that 45% to 50.1% I would argue that there is very little chance of the SNP being offered anything by anyone in exchange for their support.
Non-,SNP members demand policy changes.
Yes they don’t join the snp to help mould or change policies.
So they sing in the wind or support the enemy of Toryism
No requirement to to join of course but is frustrating to see so many do the work of the Tories.
I am on record wanting a referendum come August September. I don’t have all the facts or all the polling data.
Whenever there is referendum called I will be there fighting for this country as I am sure the majority on here will also. We must win however.
“ Luigi @0436 pm “ . Good perspective post Luigi. Don’t underestimate our FM , I am quite sure when she “ engages” that all scenarios will have been covered. She won’t let Scotland down .
“If the SNP were to vote for Theresa May’s deal in exchange for a second indyref they’d be doing the rest of the UK a service by preventing a no-deal Brexit, which would be enormously worse then even her scabby and battered deal.”
I absolutely agree with the principle and I’m somewhat amazed there wasn’t more talk about May doing that sort of deal when trying to muster up the votes for any one of the many meaningful votes she has had, seeing as she was prepared to bribe just about anyone else with something or other if she thought it might help.
The thing is though applying rational logic to May doesn’t work. Nothing she does any more actually makes any sense because, having finally realised that none of her options are any good, she simply refuses to choose any of them at all – not even the least worst – and so the whole charade just sits there going nowhere and noone else has done enough to shift the matter in any substantial way.
In a way it would make sense for her as she could legitimately kick the independence can a little way down the road in exchange for getting the Brexit thing finally through, and at least pretend from the polls at present to be relatively confident that they could campaign again for a successful No vote. Then it wouldn’t mean another Brexit referendum, another GE, doing a deal with Labour for a Brexit her party doesn’t want, etc.
The problem is May has become the very personification of the Brexit logjam. I’d be amazed if she can decide whether to have butter or jam on her toast these days without days of agonising over it.
Everybody should read the 25 articles of the Treaty of Union.
This treaty would never stand up in any EU or UN court. It mainly deals with Scotland taking over part of ENGLANDS national debt and raising taxes to pay for it. Bribery and corruption as over £370,000 were given to them who signed it to make up for the reduction in the value of the coin of Scotland.
May will grant a 30 section order because she knows Scotland can repeal the Treaty if it so wishes.
Just so folk don’t think me an arse for sling emotive phrases about, like “moral obligation”. The first duty of a responsible government is “to do no harm”. As such, HMG should be under criminal investigation of its’ disregard for public duty, in bringing us austerity and the full-English Brexit.
CSR Rule #1: Do No Harm
link to ssir.org
The other fly in the ointment is that even if the SNP supported May it is unlikely to get it through since it would be likely the Tories in Scotland would then vote against it. The deal was last defeated by 58, in theory this is enough but it isn’t if the Scot Tories vote against it (only 44 under this scenario).
There is practically no chance of May going for this and splitting the Scots Tories away from the party.
Hamish 100 6;23
September would be the ideal date, its clear of the holiday months and good chance of fair weather.
What a bizarre Channel 4 interview with the FM.
All the usual BritNat agenda, hostile questioning, we’ve come to expect, but some images which appeared to be taken from a camera sat on the floor. Just bizarre.
If we have another General election, which seems likely, then the SNP should campaign on a single policy. – An Independent Scotland in the E.U.
If we win and increase our Westminster MPs to 50+, as seems likely, then we withdraw from the House of Commons and negotiate an agreement with the largest English party. If they ignore us we start acting like an independent country. The UN and E.U. are almost certain to recognise Scotland under these conditions.
Anyway it’s worth a try.
@William Purves
It is the early example of Quantative Easing, the debts of the Scottish privileged few were transferred to debts of the people. I need to find if James Brown’s (the godfather of debt) had any ancestors around then.
You’d have a point if, in exchange for support on BREXIT we got independence, not just a vote on it.
Imagine getting IndyRef2 only to LOSE in such circumstances because the vote was preconditioned in some way, as in 79. THEN what???
C4 News tonight had an interview with the FM and spent much of the time on the currency, including supposed obligations with respect to an indy Scotland using the Euro if in the EU.
Despite in the interview this issue being clearly dealt with by the FM – in terms, no prospect of an indy Scotland being forced to join the Euro – in his closing summary the C4 interviewer chose to return to this issue. He was clearly wanting to leave the impression with the viewer at the close that, despite what the FM had explained, the Euro issue remained unresolved and so problematic for the indy case.
This should act as a warning to the FM and her senior team – if one is needed – as they engage the MSM on the case for independence.Sign of things to come.
I was looking through my saved links to forward on to someone and found this post by mr thms (with further discussion in the following comments) from last November.
Relates to Article 50, 49 and 48.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Wings is absolutely correct on this .
Forget what Nicola sturgeon wants
It’s what the members of the SNP want that is important
The SNP should support Mays brexit plan with or without Nicola sturgeon with her holyrood leader hat on
It’s not the Scottish government that we need to support Mays brexit plan because that would mean the SNP tories labour and greens supporting Theresa mays brexit plan because they are after all part of the Scottish government
We only need the SNP to support Mays brexit plan and we can cut a deal to do so in exchange for Westminster’s agreement to cooperate with a Scottish independence referendum
Nicola sturgeon representing all the people of Scotland is a Nicola sturgeon thing
It’s not an SNP thing
The SNP do not represent all the people of Scotland and never will
Not everyone in Scotland wants to be represented by the the SNP that’s why they don’t vote for them so let’s stop this kidding on that Nicola sturgeon the great statesperson represents everyone in Scotland she doesn’t.
Nicola sturgeon is good and if she chooses not to agree with the SNP Westminster group voting with Theresa May to get her brexit plan through ,in exchange for cooperation and agreement to another Scottish independence referendum that’s up to her, it matters not to all of us who want Scottish independence now and know this is the best opportunity we will ever have to get it.
In her speech Nicola said, “To those who believe independence is not the right change, I say bring forward your own proposals”. This is an invitation to the Unionists to make more false promises and tell more lies.
The most the Unionists will propose is some kind of Federalism or Devo-max. It looks to me as the SNP has abandoned Independence for their kind of Federalism or Devo-Max. Of course they would honour such promises in the way they did their promises in 2014.
It seems to me the only way to gain Independence is for the Scottish MPs to withdraw from the English parliament of the UK, join with the Scottish Parliament and resile the Treaty of Union and revoke the Act of Union. Former Ambassador Craig Murray, advocates this, demonstrates that it is legal under International Law, and tells how to do it. link to craigmurray.org.uk
The Unionist PMs will not withdraw from the English parliament, but the majority of Scottish MPs, being SNP, will withdraw if that becomes the policy of the Party.
I can just imagine how such a scenario would play out. The SNP and T May come to an agreement – support my Brexit deal (MAYBE in the CU but not in the SM) in return for a Section 30 Order.
The SNP support her and her deal gets passed. The MSM makes a meal of this in numerous ways, such as – SNP hand in hand with the Tories, SNP sell out the majority of Scots, Scots blamed for Brexit, etc, etc. The Scottish Remainers are enraged, as would be their ilk elsewhere (however not our problem). Scots in general, Remainers, Leavers and the non-politically minded, now see the SNP as being double-dealing hypocrites and support for them plummets.
The SNP decide to hold their IndyRef2. In the lead up to that the MSM would point out that as the SNP MP’s supported it, plus Scottish Tory MP’s, it won’t be too bad for Scotland at all. It must be okay in fact. More than anything how on earth can Nicola Sturgeon stand up and use Brexit, with its many negative implications / repercussions, as a reason now for bailing out of the Union? If a deal such as this was done we could say bye-bye to our Independence for decades to come. We would lose IndyRef2. The SNP MSP’s would lose the 2021 Election (Brexit hypocrites / lousy day job politicians) and I reckon that the party would be decimated for all time coming. Westminster would have learned its lesson and if either Davidson or Leonard (or future equivalents) ended up ruling the roost in Scotland Westminster would support them by upping their sweetie money to get pot-holes etc filled in. Look see how good the Unionists in Scotland are at getting on with the day job. Didn’t we tell you that the SNP were untrustworthy, inept, wee charlatans.
Private Land – Trespassers Will be Prosecuted
There is literally No Access for Scotland’s people with regards to anything political re: Brexit, Scottish Independence or indeed the Media it seems.
Can’t you lot read, don’t you understand ,Westminster has told you often enough.
You are Aliens, Trespassers, You don’t belong here, Your vision is not our vision, We can hurt you anytime we like and get away with it (Carmichael,Dugdale,I mean he/she wisnae even wearing a fur coat).
A choice needs to be made because standing in the middle of the road is not a good place to be, over time, it drains your potency.
Let’s hold our noses and at least try to fukc the unfukcables, before the fukcers fukc us (not literally) surely that is better than just waiting to get run over.
The usual Ham actors will squeal, of course they will , WoS is bringing the game into disrepute, Sturgeon doesn’t speak for Scotland blah, blah,blah….
The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows us access to private land, so we are not (legally) trespassing merely going from A to B, let’s ignore the No Trespassing signs and get where we need to be.
#LegalAidOrLemonade
That’s the last few articles now you’ve had that are having a go at the SNP. I can’t really understand why and I’m sure you have your reasons.
I’ve decided though that I’ve had enough negativity on this site and I certainly didn’t expect it from you Rev.
So that’ll be me then for now and I’ll see those of us that are steadfast on the other side of a victory for those that continue to support Independence.
The concept of ‘Governmental social responsibility’ is not radical, it has just been framed as such since Thatcher.
Political Responsibility in the Construction of the Public Realm: Reflections Based on Hannah Arendt
link to hannaharendt.net
@stewartb at 7:36pm …. “Ch4 interview with Nicola Sturgeon.”
You can see from that interview what the next MSM propaganda mantra in relation to currency is going to be and that is:-
“An Independent Scotland will have to commit to the Euro.”
Nicola Sturgeon was on the ball as usual, such as by stating that the £ was Scottish too (twice over and to his surprise, imo) and that an Independent Scotland wouldn’t have to use the Euro and gave examples of EU countries that don’t. The interviewer went further by naming additional countries that didn’t use the Euro either, but said that it was EU policy that they had to “commit” to using it. Nicola pointed out that commit or not the EU wasn’t forcing countries to adopt it. When the interview ended (and Nicola was off-screen) he addressed his colleague in the studio by basically saying that currency was going to be a big issue for an IndyRef2, as it was in 2014, and that Nicola hadn’t answered his questions on the currency at all (or words to that effect) when she had just done so. Totally blatant and just wait for them confusing the issue and duping the unenlightened with the “have to commit to” term.
The SNP has been floundering ever since it decided that a referendum was the Holy Grail. The SNP is a political party established to win a majority for independence at Westminster. If they hadn’t dabbled in referenda we would be free under Maggie T’s jibe ‘win a majority at Westminster’ which they have done.
Problem now is that the Yes movement needed to win a referendum is bigger than the SNP but the Yes movement cannot win without the SNP.
Referenda suck.
Petra…
People have already made ups their mind about Scottish independence if brexit goes ahead.
The media would not be able to change very many minds no matter what they say.
The fact is England wants brexit and it wants to retain control of Scotland it wants both
Nicola Sturgeons plan is playing right into their hands because once brexit happens there will be less chance of England’s Westminster cooperating with a Scottish independence referendum than there is now
And if brexit doesn’t happen England’s Westminster will continue to refuse to agree to a Scottish independence referendum as they are right now
Nicola sturgeon is playing it safe for her SNP holyrood group by supporting another brexit referendum on the grounds that Scotland voted to remain !! Just think about that, she ought to be saying we don’t need another brexit referendum because we already voted to remain but she clearly thinks that there is a chance of keeping the whole of the UK in the EU
What then ?
Do we continue to ask England permission to hold a Scottish independence referendum ?
Knowing that all those people in Scotland who were going to vote for Scottish independence and give us a clear majority because of brexit will now vote against Scottish independence because Nicola sturgeon saved the day and kept us all in the EU, even England and Wales who voted a majority to leave .
What she is doing is wrong
What she is doing is giving priority to her relationship with Westminster over her mandate of going for Scottish independence
I think Nicola sturgeon is great and done a lot of good things
But in this regard I think she has gone power crazy craving all the attention that goes with
the London circle of political discussion
I hope the Westminster group of SNP vote for Theresa mays deal and brexit goes through and Scotland takes the golden opportunity to declare Scottish independence following a resounding victory in a Scottish independence referendum
Nicola Sturgeon can claim that she did all she could on behalf of the Scottish parliament at holyrood to avoid brexit but whilst wearing her other hat as the leader of the SNP she had to agree with the SNP Westminster groups actions because it secures Scottish independence honouring the mandate she was given by SNP members
The only deal that should be done for the SNP to vote to leave the European Union is the one that involves the Treaty of Union 1706/7 being terminated and the end of the UK. Scotland goes its own way. England goes its own way.
Interview on channel 4 news with Nicola, with what seemed a full on “what currency will Scotland use” and “Scotland will have to use the Euro if staying in the EU” mode. Nicola while debuking the Euro case still seemed shakey on the currency use. SNP really need to act more confidently and rebuke the nonsense spouted by the MSM.If not, I fear people will lose confidence in the success of any forthcoming indyref
@handclapping.
A lot of people reference that thatcher quote as if it carries the slightest weight, legally.
It doesn’t.
She was MOCKING Scots who supported indy and the only party interested in Indy.
She was mocking the lack of political support for indy.
Not only did she not mean it, she had ZERO authority to deliver on it.
We won 56/59 seats in 2015 but barely scraped 50% of the vote, if you think 30 seats (a majority) on less than 40% of the vote, never mind 50% plus one, is a sovereign mandate from the Sovereign Scots people, and somehow equates to calling indy won, then bad news, you have not been paying attention.
Our Sovereignty hinders as much as helps us.
If we were not sovereign, we would not need a majority of the people for indy which opens up other ways.
It cuts both ways.
Not you too, Thepnr (8:26pm)? No sign of Dr Jim either plus a multitude of other brilliant pro-Independence posters who seem to have done a runner. The Unionists must be cracking open their champagne bottles. Rubbing their hands in glee.
What on earth is going on? Whatever the case please don’t go, as it looks as though that’s the name of the game on here now. Don’t let them win, especially when we are close to getting our Independence. As decent posters leave the site, one after another, many pretendy wee pro-Independence supporters, time wasters, tr*lls and a resident disc jockey have taken over. Sad to say the least. This site is influential as you know, so I’m asking, a call to arms, all genuine Independence supporters to get on here to support the cause.
I posted this on my facebook. I hope I’m right:
Weel, weel, just seen twitter footage of Nicola Sturgeon being interviewed by an STV Britnat none-entity ‘…and I don’t think a UK Government could or will be able to stand in the way of the Scottish people expressing its will’ Now I don’t know what’s in her head (how could I?), however, my best guess would be we’re off to the UN and the rights of self determination. YEEEEEEEEEEEEE FUCKING HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Game on!
Petra@9.07pm
2 recent topic posts have invited a flood of posters of the type you mention, not great look.
It’s getting close to the time when we will find out if we are being led by modern day Bruces or a bunch of Charlies. Some posters on here have already decided that it is a bunch of Charlies. I say it is too early to decide.
thepnr and Dr Jim – I never took either of you to be quitters.
@Petra 9.07 pm
Who decides who is a genuine Independence supporter? Is there a vetting committee?
Petra @ 9:07 pm
Agreed! I suspect there are important lessons historically from the left of politics involving schism and consequent failure to achieve.
The SG, FM, SNP and other pro-indy groups and individuals all do face DILEMMAS over how to achieve our independence (in the strict meaning of the term DILEMMA – problem offering two or more possible routes to solutions, none of which are unambiguously acceptable or preferable.)
Yes we can and should all offer our views – hopefully always respectfully and constructively – but preferably with a basic acknowledgement of the FACT of such actual DILEMMAS and of the burden on certain individuals with leadership responsibilities to make hard choices with potentially huge consequences.
O/T
Did a Survation poll this afternoon. First time I have been honoured.
ALL about past and future voting intentions.
Did I vote in out ref., how did I vote. Council elections, same again. EU ref. May’s GE. Would I want a 2nd EU ref. How would I vote. Do I want another Indyref. How did I rate the political party leaders.
Anyone notice the little piece on p17 of the Metro today, down at the bottom.
Headed Cyber security “Tested in Scotland”
The chief executive of the National Cyber Security Centre has revealed that Scotland is often used as a training ground for potential issues. Speaking at the CyberUK Conference Cieran Martin said: What I’m impressed about is the way Scottish society , public and private sector, mobilises itself in the various resilience forms.
FRANKLY, SOMETIMES WE TRY THINGS OUT IN SCOTLAND.
Yea, I fucking bet you do.
The 10 year period of austerity (2008-2018) heralded as a great triumph for British democracy, by New Labour and the Tory’s resulted in an unprecedented number of individuals having their benefit entitlement reviewed and brutally stopped resulting in them being forced to rely on charity to survive.
link to caltonjock.com
Given one of the ‘benefits’ of Brexit will be the loosening of bureaucratic regulations and further privatisation of the welfare-state, it is difficult to comprehend the conduct of academics attached to Scotland in Union. I reckon they must be seriously fucked-up individuals. frankly.
#WorldMurdoDay
P.S. Does anyone know if the Church of Scotland is still wedded to (white) British nationalism?
web.worldbank.org/archive/website01006/WEB/IMAGES/PUBLICPO.PDF
Brexit would ruin the Scottish economy. Why should any political campaign for a policy that would ruin the economy. Except unionists parties ruining it ALL the time since 1928 and before. Malicious self serving lies to line their and their associates pockets. Malicious lying manifestos that are never honoured. Lie after lie.
The SNP are better than that. 62%+ of Scottish voters voted to Remain. The SNP are honouring that pledge to try and Remain. Or cause less damage as possible. ETA etc.
When another IndyRef is being campaigned for and will be delivered and coming soon. Demographically. Why be pushed before the jump into campaigning. A S30 can be applied through the Court’s and will be achieved because of the totally undemocratically way Scotland has been treated consistently. Against International Law. Recognised in all the Courts.
The Tory/Westminster unionist Gov will collapse soon. That is obvious. A total disgrace of mismanagement as usual. Brexit catastrophe. A Tory unionist absolute disaster. Imbeciles. Just wait till the Council elections 3rd May. EU elections 23 May? They will be squealing like pigs. Or rats in a sack. Not purring like cats. The cats that lost the cream. Skirling.
Surely we all recognise two things. The SNP are afraid of failing again, and oddly enough seem to agree that a generation as defined by Ms Davidson is 7 years ,given they are talking about 2021 as a possible future referendum date. Seven years since 2014.
In order to be certain of victory,they are overlooking this golden opportunity which may never come again , and I mean by that the chaos within the Establishment who will eventually regroup.
Any Referendum will be decided by the 25%+ that never vote. Polling does not work. It does not Poll those who never vote. They are off the radar. Out of the reach of Polls. They Poll those who are interested. Regular non voters are usually not.
For “bureaucratic regulations” read health and safety standards.
‘Once Brexit hapoens’. Brexit will never happen. There will be elections the Tories will be out big fail. A convenient back track. Someone else will have to clear up the mess, as usual. It happens all the time. Scotland can grab the opportunity at any time. Patience is a virtue.
Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Get someone to vote too. Do not be defeatist. Vote for Independence. It will happen.Don’t vote – it won’t.
Even Murdo Fraser etc believe in Independence and will vote for it. Twa faced Tories in the secrecy of the ballot box.
This is the third article recently I have completely disagreed with.
My random thoughts –
The SNP have been consistent on Brexit.
first choice – UK remains in EU
second choice – UK remains in Single Market and CU – this is the only option they voted for in the Commons
failing either of these, Scotlands interests are severely damaged and they will call indyref2
Independence is much easier if our nearest neighbour remains at least in the single market
In fact the ideal conditions may be the scenario where the whole UK is outside the EU but in the single market – because there would be minimum disruption to our trade but the EU would not have UKs back as it would not be a member state.
Having indyref2 is not a goal in itself – winning it is
If the SNP enabled Brexit they would get a hammering and quite rightly so as 62% of Scotland voted remain
Peoples opinions do not change overnight, they soften over time, and the SNP are not messaging us – they are messaging the No/Remainers who are the prime place our new Yes votes are going to come from
By the time 55%-60% are ready to vote Yes, 30% of us are going to be literally screaming with frustration. Thats the way it is. Harness that frustration and get out campaigning instead of having a go at other Yessers. Campaigning is now on. You dont need a referendum to campaign, SNP members were campaigning for independence for decades and that why we have come this far.
The SNP may seem to be painfully political correct and right on – but they have to be or they will get hammered by very vocal people, apart from that its the right thing to do. Some of their stuff I have an initial negative emotion about because I grew up in a different era, but intellectually I know its the right thing to do. In any case none of that is really relevant to independence.
The question of support for EURef2 is a difficult one. On the one hand its consistent with their stated aims and it might be seen as hypocritical to oppose it yet support indyref2. On the other hand its dangerous as it might be a precedent for a ‘confirmatory’ vote after independence. Probably it wont happen in which case we can safely be seen as having done the principled thing…
I dont see how we can have indyref2 until the UK has actually left the EU or there could be a sudden about turn, another vow etc.
Lastly I would be very happy if I never hear the phrase ‘the SNP should’ ever again uttered by people who arent even members
Scotland has ‘a right to roam’, not barriers, people can and do wander all over Scotland. Tourism is big. A national asset. The magnificent scenery. The best in the world, especially up North. Exceptional. Recognised worldwide. Scotland is half empty because of Westminster centrist policies. Total mismanagement. Appalling. The Scottish population has only gone up since Devolution 2000. Brexit would not be beneficial for Scotland.
For goodness sake. Nicola is far from being daft. There is purpose in insisting upon , “Getting Westminster’s permission”, and it sure as hell is not because Scotland requires it to hold a referendum.
The SG, (not Nicola), requests Westminster’s permission and no matter who heads the United Kingdom Government, (not the English Government), when they do, refuses their permission then Holyrood takes the matter to the Scottish High Court who rule that Westminster is acting unconstitutionally.
Westminster, takes it to the United Kingdom Supreme Court who rule in favour of the Westminster United Kingdom parliament and the Scottish Courts appeal it to the international courts. There has been a bit of form there already.
Remember we are actually talking about a legally bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms but Westminster sees itself as sovereign over Scotland which it legally is not and that requesting of a Section 30 order takes the bipartite United Kingdom into constitutional conflict in the international courts.
Wherein, at the end of the day, the UK has signed up to the human right that any recognisable group of people have the human right of self determination. Westminster is not legally the English parliament – it just believes it is.
More people who support Independence should join the SNP. Put their money where their mouth is. Lots of good folk do. Good focus. Camaraderie. The more the merrrier. Like minded people. Well organised.
Aye, aye Mr Peffers. Salute.
British nationalism is an unhealthy mindset, as it submits an individual’s agency as a sovereign human-being, to Westminster, and has brought Scotland to the point of Brexit despite Scotland voting against it. Under such circumstances, a rational resident of Scotland would have concern for their self-preservation and biological security under British nationalist government, if not the rights of future generations.
link to verywellmind.com
Cut a deal, with a tied-in guarantee on a ‘vow’ to honour a S30? What are they, the DUP? Fuck that.
“For there’s no gods and there’s precious few heroes
But there’s plenty on the dole in the Land o’ the Leal
And it’s time now to sweep the future clear”
Well, as far as I’m concerned, Sturgeon still hasn’t made a mistake.
“Of the lies of a past that we know was never real”
[B. McNeil]
with the negative vibes from the Rev against the SNP again could it be he is huffing over the Dugdale case and his belief the snp should have supported his unfortunate statements he
made online although not homophobic?
OT With the UK and the RoI having talks of NI Devolution are we seeing the start of bargaining to resolve the backstop?
The freedom movement regained the momentum for Scotland’s liberation in 2015. The Red and blue Tory Unionist machine was smashed: 56 out of 59 MPs SNP.
The road to victory was open but Nicola Sturgeon put the brakes on. Full Stop!
The SNP became the big players at Westminster. Started dancing to the British tune. Feeling important.
Then reverse. The SNP shed votes like snaw off a dyke with their pro-Westminster 2017 GE campaign.
With Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon embraced the WM merry-go-round. British People’s Vote. Sold out Scotland’s vote to Remain.
The SNP went begging the House of Lords for favours. They got the contempt they deserved from the unelected vermin in ermine. Continuity Bill killed. Devolution democracy dead in Scotland. But the SNP keep the corpse breathing to pretend there’s life in devolution.
The SNP became British Establishment politicians. The Ian Blackford and Joanne Cherry WM Brexit show.
The SNP Save Britain.
It’s time to teach the SNP a fundamental reminder: The one and only reason for the SNP is Scotland’s freedom.
If the Sturgeon British Establishment SNP won’t listen. Destroy them at the ballot box just like we smashed Red Tory Labour.
If the SNP won’t fight for Scotland’s freedom, vote for those who will.
To glamaig…
Sorry but you are totally wrong
if Scotland leaves the EU as a result of Westminster voting for it with SNP voting for it too
And a Scottish independence referendum is held that allows Scotland to rejoin the EU as an independent country
There is no way on this earth that remainers in Scotland will say
“ well I was gonna vote for Scottish independence but I’m not going to now because SNP helped brexit along”
Their choice would be
a) resigning themselves to permanent brexit under UK government
OR
b) being in the EU with Scotland as an independent country
If being in EU is their priority (b) will be chosen
If being in the UK is their priority (a) will be their choice
Are you by any chance an (a) ?
When it comes down to it Scottish independence in the eu OR brexit in the UK is your choice you have to choose which is most important to you
Self-determination will be healthy for Scotland, as it will connect Scots to their government. A Government of Scotland, for Scotland, by Scotland. Brexit highlights Scotland’s democratic deficit and will damage Scotland’s public health. Scotland must not be dragged out of the EU.
link to psycnet.apa.org
Stalingrad and the Blitz lasted 6 years. Brexit will never happen by the Tories. Within five years they are out. Just wait for the subsequent elections. Three years or less left.
Good article.
As far as I can see, in the absence of an alternative route to an S30 agreement, the only good reason (admittedly an excellent one) for any further delay to a second referendum, that would necessarily occur without an S30, is the not unreasonable desire to have Alex Salmond assisting with the festivities.
Hamish100 says:
26 April, 2019 at 10:36 pm
“”with the negative vibes from the Rev against the SNP again could it be he is huffing over the Dugdale case and his belief the snp should have supported his unfortunate statements he
made online although not homophobic?”” YES
“”OT With the UK and the RoI having talks of NI Devolution are we seeing the start of bargaining to resolve the backstop?”” YES
Apologies for being somewhat the worse for ware, but something occurred.
Section 30.
I wiz in ae pub back in 14’, or wiz it 15’? canny mind, had a few pints and me and ma mate were considering the 3:30 at Haymarket. He saide, ah bet ye thoan number 31 willnae come within the top 3. We settled oan 15 tae wan…… Ah lost…. Bastrd’
Onayhow…
Come 2019 am in they pub an this Quine (Hackett bitch) a mate oh the mate I kent back in 14’ (or wiz it 13’? Haha) mine him? Well he frerked aff n never seen him again bawbag! well his mate, fa ave nivver seen afore, pitches in an sayers she wans the same odds ah hud we hur mate back then.
Cors what can ye say, own yer bike!
apologies to the horse racing folk, I know shit about the ponies
“FRANKLY, SOMETIMES WE TRY THINGS OUT IN SCOTLAND. Yea, I fucking bet you do.” You say @Kenny says at 9:32 pm
Aye of course they do Kenny
Remember The Poll Tax, Nuclear Power at Dounreay, Gruinard Island aka Anthrax Island, Project Fear via Social and Mainstream Media for example.
All tested on/in Scotland 1st.
To glamaig 1004hrs…
It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote when we know that England and Wales voted in favour of brexit and we know a majority in UK voted for brexit
It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote knowing that the people of Scotland have already made their choice by overwhelmingly voting to remain
There is no need for a second brexit vote ,the first result has not been carried through to brexit
I am a remainer but I respect England’s right to brexit and Wales too it’s what they voted for so they should get it
Scotland voted to remain so we should get that too but in order to get it we will have to leave the UK so it is perfectly honourable to have Scottish independence referendum to see if leaving the UK is more or less important than staying in the EU
To glamaig 1004hrs…
It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote when we know that England and Wales voted in favour of brexit and we know a majority in UK voted for brexit
It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote knowing that the people of Scotland have already made their choice by overwhelmingly voting to remain
There is no need for a second brexit vote ,the first result has not been carried through to brexit
I am a remainer but I respect England’s right to brexit and Wales too it’s what they voted for so they should get it
Scotland voted to remain so we should get that too but in order to get it we will have to leave the UK so it is perfectly honourable to have a Scottish independence referendum to see if leaving the UK is more or less important than staying in the EU
Colin Alexander
Here is a bit of ad hom for you. You really are a boring barsteward.
To glamaig …1004hrs
How do you know who is a member of the SNP and who is not ?
Do you just read what a person has posted and then declare that they are not a member of the SNP ?
You only need to read through Wings to find out the vast majority of the people of Scotland just cannot get the facts straight in their minds.
How many times have I personally posted the fact that the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign KINGDOMS? It is not a country composed of four countries and Westminster is not legally the parliament of England. That factually there is no parliament of England and Westminster runs and funs England directly as the United Kingdom.
You can bet your shirt that within a few comments someone will refer to Westminster as the English parliament or will speak of an rUnited Kingdom that Scotland will be leaving behind when, “Scotland leaves the Union”.
I explain and quote references that the Pound Sterling is as much Scots currency as it is England’s and I site references. Then I explain that the Bank of England has never in its entire history belonged to the English Kingdom alone. It was a private company until THE UNITED KINGDOM nationalised it and it thus belongs to both partner kingdoms of the United Kingdom.
Within a few comments someone will post that the pound belongs to England and on independence England and the Bank of England will control the Scottish economy if Scotland keeps the pound.
The facts are plain – an independent Scotland would immediately begin to get the up to 98% oil & gas revenue that currently goes directly to Westminster and the Scottish economy is the only one in the entire United Kingdom that is a net exporter and that is without the oil & gas revenues.
That means the rest of the present UK are all net importers and that is exactly what Gavin McCrone wrote in his report to the Westminster Government and it spooked them so badly they marked it top secret and buried it deep in a Westminster vault for decades. That began with the Tories but Labour did not reveal it to the public and even yet it is hard to search out a copy of the report.
The report plainly states that if Scotland found out the facts it would lead to Scottish independence and if it did the Scottish oil & gas driven economy would become so hard against the English pound that it would become a problem for a Scottish Government – but nothing like the problem it would be for England. All a over hard currency needs to do, as seen by the Norwegian economy, is to buy in another poorer performing currency they don’t need and the job is done. Norway keeps buying Euros it doesn’t need.
What McCrone was warning Westminster about was that all an oil & gas driven Scottish economy would need to do was to buy in English pounds to stabilise the Scottish pound and that would drive down the English pound and the lower it went the better for the Scottish pound.
No doubt an over hard currency is not a good thing but it sure as hell is a great deal better than a weakening one and there is a cure for it but no cure for an ever weakening currency.
Just what natural resources has England got that it can sell to the World? What can England manufacture that no one else can? England’s strongest assets, (besides Scotland0, was their financial services and they are bailing out of the UK at a high speed even before Brexit. Mainly to the Netherlands apparently.
So there you go – independence would see Scotland soaring and England sinking and that is why the Britnats are holding on so firmly to Scotland. If it were not so we would have been independent centuries ago.
Colin Alexander…1037…
I think what you said is daft, telling people not to vote for snp and to vote for those who will fight for Scotland’s freedom !
Come on , SNP is the only party that is fighting for Scotland’s freedom
Some might think their way of doing it isn’t the best
But surely you realise they are the only party to do it
There is nobody else
We have to support SNP and vote SNP in every election if we want Scottish independence no other political party will ever get it for you for sure
OT from the Rev.’s twitter, re. the more affluent appearing to be more prone to peddling bullshit than the poor. This might have something to do with “right-mindedness”, or the belief that one is correct simply becomes one is economically successful. Just a hunch.
#WorldMurdoDay
@Terry Callachan.
That right, aye?
To Robert puffers…1104 hrs
You regularly state these things but until it all plays out which it most certainly will, YOU cannot be sure that what was written back then was written with the intention and meaning that YOU take from it now.
Scotland has already experienced this when written details of devolution were found to be bogus with no legally binding commitment required of Westminster so if I were you, fair enough hold your views and interpretations but remember that YOU may be incorrect, your interpretation may be incorrect and interpretation is everything in law.
You should try and refrain from scolding people for their interpretation or lack of knowledge a pleasant post stating your own opinion is great but saying the great majority of people on wings just cannot get the facts straight in their minds is rather insulting
To proud cybernat 1117…
Was that a question ?
I’m glad that the party I have always supported, the SNP, have good principles and morals.
Scotland voted overwhelming to remain in the European Union and so it would be morally corrupt to facilitate Brexit going through to further our desires at home.
WE know, having done our homework, that all forms of Brexit will hurt ALL the people of the UK.
And calling for a second vote on Brexit is the right thing to do.
It IS respecting the voters in England and Wales where folk are now realising that they were lied to and bulldosed into the polling stations without adequate information to make an informed choice.
Whatever way all of this goes, part of the electorate over the Border are already grateful to our SNP MPs and to Nicola Sturgeon for holding the UK Government’s feet to the fire when most of their own home grown parties failed so dismally.
And part of the electorate over the Border will continue to despise all input by the Scots whether or not that scuppers their dreams of a full Britnat Brexit.
On top of that, our First Minister has, today, said that even if Brexit is halted it is likely that our Independence Referendum will go ahead.
That Scotland’s Independence Referendum will probably be held in the second half of next year 🙂
The UK bridges have long since been well and truly burned.
Was that a question ?
If you were a Scot, you would know exactly what it was.
SNP Conference starts tomorrow rather than beat up your laptop get along and let them know you are there and not in the least pleased with fobbing off the Mandate.
The Anti-Fracking Folk will be there, Scottish CND will be there, will you be there ? Being a Yesser means you care.
I get the impression of whats happening at the moment that is a bit like the householder who has had his home broken into going to court as a witness for good character for the burglar who robbed him. WTF !
Dissolve the Union NOW ! Scotland is not there to sort out the ills of England, it’s their mess, the Irish Border Issue is not an Irish Problem it’s Westminster one they created it !
“Where is the harm in asking?”
None. Also absolutely no chance, though. Not one in a billion.
To proud cybernat…1123hrs
Haha , if I were a Scot
Cat got your tongue ? Got something to say ? Say it ,no place for being a timorous wee beastie
“You know what I get really tired of, people saying that once brexit happens, it will be so bad that the polls for indy will shift. I really don’t think that is correct…”
Precisely.
“For as long as we continue pandering to the idea that Scotland is a subordinate in this union, we will be, deservedly, treated so.”
Which is exactly what we’re doing by repeatedly meekly asking for a Section 30, being told to piss off, and doing nothing about it except asking meekly again.
To James Barr Gardner…
I’m going tomorrow.
Staying at the hostel on the royal mile..bargain
I’m worried that so many people are rankled by SNP lack of direct action
The SNP should be loud and proud rattling the cages stating intentions biting back and we will follow
They’re too soft for many people who have been at this for decades and feel it with their fingertips but can’t quite grasp it
Here’s another first for Scotland which came within days of actually happening. Better together in the colony.
link to archive.is
Well, I’m ok with things. There is apparently a stated stance by the SNP of ‘no indyref without a section 30’ (though I haven’t read that explicitly myself)
So, if that is the case, it stands as rank stupidity, politically, tactically, logically and wouldn’t fly even in the playground. That sort of play at the big skool would get you hammered at 5-card brag and you’d lose your house on your first game of poker when you left it. Therefore, it can’t be the play (can it?) Surely not.
The best such a statement could be described is “Please don’t throw me into the briar patch” and so risibly stupid that everyone knows it’s a “briar patch play”
Although… Maybe it is just rank stupidity – the state of politics nowadays nothing would surprise me.
Anyway, let us make the mistake of assumption and assume the “S30 or nothing” is really all the SNP have. T.May could well dangle that carrot (or Labour or a jakey on the street) to have the SNP dance a wee S30 jig. The only way that can play is if there is a mutual, simultaneous, written agreement : “Brexit deal for S30” and that’s only a maybe – because what comes first? The Brexit deal vote, or the Indyref? Or is it to be wrapped up in an all encompassing vote somehow.
If it’s not simultaneous or homogeneous – as soon as one party has achieved its goal, the deal can be reneged – the “Vow” if you like.
“But it will be recognised as a binding agreement and international rescue (sorry) international thingmy, courts things will slap wrists and do a lot of tutting!”
Aye… how long will that take? Will Scotland rise up en-mass and say “haw! That’s no the gemme, even though millions of us like that the Union wins again, its the principle of the thing – lets back Indy?” Ha! Aye right.
So that’s a losing scenario.
The only winning scenario is Scotland wanting Independence and by that I mean the majority. The only way is take time to convince them by letting the shit cards fall where they will; or you can hold a referendum, SGE or GE on that specific ticket. Yet the only way you can have a referendum (without the instakill S30 headshot) is to hold one and damn their eyes. If that isn’t a flier, then it’s elections or some damn clever play right out of left field.
I’ll wait.
This isn’t such a bad idea,brexit will happen anyway,so might as well make it easier for them.I’d also like international observers etc.
Asking for a S30 ,what government ever had to ask another government for permission or their agreement to consult their population
Now is not the time
SNP should have responded to that with
We will say when it is the time , not you
Terry callachan
I said “if”. I am leaving the door open for the SNP to abandon the Westminster “Save Britain” WM love-in sessions and accept devolution and indyref2 are a dead end.
There is still a chance for the SNP to re-embrace independence by plebiscite elections instead of their insidious obsession with administering colonial devolution.
Some may see it as a ‘Hail Mary pass’, but I recon that the SNP agreeing to May’s deal in return for a Section 30 Order is something that ‘Yes’ should seriously consider embracing.
What’s the alternative? Sit around waiting for events to unfold which are beyond our control and at the same time be at the mercy of the Tories until the polls show +50%? The speech by NS has simply left me more concerned about losing the mandate, unity and momentum as time marches on. Furthermore, it’s hypocritical to complain about E&W forcing Scotland to leave the EU, whilst simultaneously hoping that Scotland can in some way prevent E&W from leaving the same.
A Section 30 Order should be considered as being connected legislation to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, so as to ensure any future PM/Westminster Govt. can’t renege on the deal.
Fairest solution is to permit the Scottish Govt. to negotiate directly with the EU to establish for us the status of Successor Member State ‘in-waiting’, and present to Scotland the choice of the choice of:
Remain in UK [_]
Remain in EU [_]
Ghillie @ 11.22
I agree with you,but for totally different reasons ( I’m just no as nice as you 🙂 )
The Revs proposal was interesting and worth, I think,putting out there. Mainly because it would shake the tree and see what falls out.That’s appealing for many reasons other than I’m just being a bitch….
Anyhoo… Where I disagree with the Rev is in the position that we should leave England to implement what it voted for.
We so shouldn’t….
Not from duty .
Not from a moral perspective.
But rather because it’s in Scottish interests to stymie this Brexit,we are not forcing the people south of the border to take a course that is to their detriment,or not,…depending on their point of view…that would indeed be immoral…. But we can, and we should,like any other country… Take any and all positions that advances us.
We have a position within this Union,and, while we are in it it’s all we have… Why on earth should we not use it as best we can to advance Scotland?
Therefore,I agree that, it is in the interests of Scotland for the Territory that falls under the Westminster government other than Scotland, to stay in the EU, so..then that’s what Holyrood should be politicking for.
Sill… No harm in debating what “” could be done “” though ,and looking at the fall out… Like I said Bitch 🙂
Me @ 11.49
Oh Ghillie…. just read that back…
I mean that like I said I was being a bitch…
NOT you!!!
My tuppence worth:
In 2014, Wings helped drive Indy support to 45% (see earlier, humble Wings post).
In 2019, Nicola Sturgeon is the primary driver (not excluding Wings) to drive the figure well beyond 50%.
It is difficult to believe that bloggers, indy groups, armchair commentators and the impatient brigade have access to more national and international info and legal advice to support a successful Scotref that SHE HAS DEVOTED HER ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE TO.
Rev Stuart Campbell. Time you promoted yourself from being a mere Rev. So what do you propose should happen considering the Scots voted to remain in the Union. Do you have a plan of action like taking over a post office.
Cmonindy @ 11.58
Aye,there’s nae argument there Cmonindy..
But we’ve all, already, seen whit happens when we don’t put our opinions out there,switch off, and leave the politicians to it….. Any politicians,and that’s where Nicola would probably agree……
Whit happens is 300 years of a stupid arrangement that needs tae go…
So we watch and we comment…. This is a good thing….
Nobody knows it all,and, if we can put an Idea of two into the mix…. That’s a good thing… Aye?
Am like asking guys – wit am a gonna get oot o ma pension?
Am so fecked aff nae wan can answer this question.
Its gees me doubts aboot the hale thing.
Still be SNP awe the wae but this bothers me.