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From the mouths of eggs

Posted on April 26, 2019 by

We got a tweet this morning from one of those odd Twitter accounts that’s been going for eight years and still only has six followers. This one appears to be a fairly moderate right-wing, UK-nationalist Brexiter with only a few dozen tweets (nearly all replies) to their name since 2011.

But readers, he’s got a point.

We’ve pointed out before that the SNP have gotten themselves into a real mess over Brexit, whereby they’re campaigning to prevent/overturn the very thing that gives them a mandate for a second indyref.

(Independence being, let’s remember, the SNP’s primary if not sole reason to exist, and a referendum now being officially the party’s only stated route to achieving it.)

They’ve fallen into a managerialism trap, prioritising the mitigation of bad UK decisions in a devolved Scotland over escaping UK decisions in an independent one. They’ve become – accidentally, we hope – a party of better devolution, not independence.

The SNP has no mandate – either political or moral – to save England and Wales from what they voted for in 2016. They voted Leave, then they declined to vote for Remain parties in the 2017 election, and if they’ve changed their minds now then it’s up to them to sort it out.

(Does anyone seriously think that if the SNP somehow managed to stop Brexit, they’d be carried shoulder-high from the Commons, all given knighthoods and told Scotland could have whatever they wanted? Remember how that was supposed to happen if we voted No five years ago?)

If the SNP were to vote for Theresa May’s deal in exchange for a second indyref they’d be doing the rest of the UK a service by preventing a no-deal Brexit, which would be enormously worse then even her scabby and battered deal.

By ensuring that a withdrawal deal including the Irish backstop went through, they’d be doing the best they could to protect the Good Friday Agreement and peace process, and they’d be royally pissing off UKIP and Nigel Farage and all the hardcore Tory Eurosceptics, which presumably nobody reading this site would object to very much.

They’d be securing the best chance of winning an independence vote that any of us are likely to see in our lifetimes. Circumstances are never, ever going to get better than now. The UK is never going to be a less attractive option.

They’d be giving people in Scotland a clear and concrete democratic choice: to stay in the EU with Scotland, or leave it with the UK. We already know from numerous polls that a majority of Scots think Brexit will be worse than independence. Now they’d have to actually vote for one or the other.

They’d earn at least the grudging respect of those troublesome Yes Leavers who are (notwithstanding the above paragraph) currently keeping indy support below 50%, by acknowledging the UK’s legitimate right to leave in accordance with the wishes of the majority of its voters.

(Because unlike a second indyref, which has an empirical electoral and political double mandate, the inconvenient fact is that there are still absolutely no democratic grounds for a second EU referendum, however much some people might want one. Labour and the Tories stood in a general election AFTER the EU referendum, both on platforms of carrying out Brexit, and got 82% of the vote between them. If people wanted a second EU vote they could have voted Lib Dem in 2017, but they didn’t.)

Their position would be coherent and principled, rather than the current confused and contradictory fudge. Their job is to secure independence for Scotland whether Brexit happens or not, and their duty is to seize any chance to make that happen. They owe England and Wales nothing, other than perhaps to respect their democratic choices.

If we were Theresa May right now (ugh), we’d be putting the offer on the table. If she believes, as she claims to, that Scots really want to stay in the Union then she’s got nothing to lose. She’d keep the UK together AND get the Brexit she desperately wants.

(If she was wrong and Scotland voted Yes, we know the people of England wouldn’t be very bothered and it wouldn’t hurt her anyway.)

And in the unlikely event that she does, Nicola Sturgeon should snatch her hand off.

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    1. 26 04 19 12:56

      From the mouths of eggs | speymouth

    314 to “From the mouths of eggs”

    1. Capella says:

      IMO Westminster will cancel BREXIT before it will allow Scotland to escape their greedy clutches. If they offer a S30 order they will be lying. Nicola knows this. In her R4 interview she made clear that she does not trust the Westminster Government. Their word is not their bond.

    2. Doug Bryce says:

      In order to achieve 50+% for independence the SNP needs to appeal to the fence-sitting voters. Likely those who voted REMAIN EU in 2016 but NO in 2014.

      Personally I don’t mind the SNP going ‘canny’ and ‘slow’ for a couple of reasons…

      1)Consequence of losing a rushed 2nd independence referendum in 5 years don’t bear thinking about. I do detect a wind of change in the air. However many still have head in sand that Brexit will be OK and business as usual shall return soon. Why not wait for Brexit effect to hit hard?

      2) Once we are actually out of EU then there is a good chance Scotland will be given fast-tracked membership offer. EU can’t make that offer while UK still a member state. This certainty will be a massive bonus for YES2 campaign.

      Either way : Independence isn’t just about Brexit.
      I also feel Sturgeon has a longer term game plan – she is just being cautious until the smog clears.

    3. Camy says:

      It Does kinda make sense but would you trust a Tory to implement it?
      1) May agrees & Signs off agreement
      2) Brexit vote passes in WM
      3) Government falls and/or May leaves
      4) Boris tears up agreement

    4. Sharny Dubs says:

      It’s one of the hardest thing to do is admit that you fucked up and made a mistake, but hay even NS is human, so what about we admit that the whole Brexit thing has distracted us from our goal.

      Let’s call it and get on with it!

    5. kapelmeister says:

      Many people will switch to Yes after Brexit, as we know. But a lot of those voters would be reluctant if the SG had not first tried their best to prevent Scotland leaving the EU.

      As Sturgeon said in interviews in the latter half of 2016, a First Minister is obligated to serve all the people of Scotland, not just factions.

    6. defo says:

      At very least, we’d find out what a million exploding gammon’s sounds like!

    7. Shug says:

      The only thing that is certain is you cant trust a westminster unionist
      I would support theresa for a section 30 but you cant trust them
      Theresa could not accept sno supportas it would be tantamount to letting the slave have power

    8. ian stewart says:

      Camy says:
      26 April, 2019 at 11:51 am
      It Does kinda make sense but would you trust a Tory to implement it?
      1) May agrees & Signs off agreement
      2) Brexit vote passes in WM
      3) Government falls and/or May leaves
      4) Boris tears up agreement

      Nail on head !

    9. desimond says:

      Always keep your eyes on the prize.

      I picture it like those In flight demonstrations…in times of emergency…always ensure your own Oyygen Mask is tied securely before trying to assist others.

      Its going to be “The Frog and the Scorpion” though isn’t it with faux shocked folk saying “I cant believe Westminster fucked us!”

    10. Douglas says:

      Sorry, I don’t agree.

      While we are stuck in this Union we need to behave responsibly and use the little power that we have it a way that does the most good.

      There is no ‘good Brexit’ (although I agree that ‘No deal’ is the worst).
      If the SNP voted for May’s deal it would be a disaster for all of the countries within the U.K. A no deal Brexit would be worse but it would not be of our making. This may seem like a splitting hairs but it will be important when convincing No voters and dealing with rUK.

      I don’t think we can prevent England and Wales from dragging the U.K. into the abyss but it is still important to vote against the disaster.

      If, by some unlikely miracle, Brexit is prevented then so much the better. Dealing with rUK that is still within the moderating sphere of the EU will be better than sharing a land border with a failing Brexitania well on the road to totalitarianism. It may take a bit longer but the U.K. has shown how useless it is and how much contempt it has for Scotland (we would also have the rabid Brexiteers trying to get rid of us).

      I also don’t think that May would keep any such Faustian bargain.

    11. Colin Alexander says:

      Regarding the SNP, Stu says: “They’ve become…a party of better devolution, not independence”.

      Or, as I would put it: The SNP have become the best administrators of British colonial rule in Scotland.

      “It’s not colonial administration” the SNP sycophants will moan.

      Is devolution democracy when the democratically passed Continuity Bill is overturned by the unelected House of Lords?

      Is it devolution democracy when the SNP are given a democratic mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland and the UK Govt simply refuse to recognise it?

      The FM asserted the people of Scotland are sovereign, so assert it to the UK Govt and EU through the courts. There is a Charter of Fundamental Rights in the EU. There is the Claim of Right 1689. The SNP Scot Govt have made no attempt to uphold the vote of Scotland’s people to Remain.

      Though I welcome the small steps the FM accounced, It is far too little, too late. There is so much that could have been said and practical action that could be taken via court action, pre-empting any opponent’s court action, but is rejected by the SNP.

      Theresa May is mocked for kicking the can doon the road over and over again. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP have done the same for years too.

      I want independence, or at least Scotland operating as an equal sovereign partner of the UK, not as a colony.

      I don’t want to vote for the best colonial administrators. I want to vote for Scotland’s freedom from colonial rule.

      I want a real Scottish Government, not a Scottish Raj run by the SNP.

    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It Does kinda make sense but would you trust a Tory to implement it?”

      Clearly you’d need to make sure it was watertight, perhaps by holding the indyref first.

    13. Adrian B says:

      Brexit will go ahead – it is backed by the Tories and Labour. The issues at present are the Irish border and freedom of movement. Freedom of movement will end as it is supported by May and Corbyn who will both move closer to a Brexit conclusion after the local Gov and EU elections. Both parties are playing a long game in getting Brexit numbers and Labour don’t want to take the fall for enabling Brexit.

      There could be a change in the UK remaining in the Customs Union – if this happens then it will be marketed and sold as something different to what we have today.

      There will not be a second EU ref – Labour and the Tories have had a good number of chances at moving towards this being a viable option. At all times this option is shot down.

      The SNP will not agree to ending Freedom of movement in the UK – so they will never be able to back a Brexit plan that ends peoples freedom of movement.

      Scotland will be more than likely have been taken out of the EU by Westminster politicians and parties before an Inteyref is able to be held. If an agreement for Brexit cannot be concluded before Autumn Conference then Theresa May and the Tories are in real trouble (as an aside from all the hassle the rest of us must endure).

    14. Ross says:

      Well known in SNP circles this.

      May deal is good for an independent Scotland and ultimately all Scots citizens.

      Problem: unless that message is carried with steel the SNP would get leathered at the ballot box. Carries a lot of issues.

      Tartan Tories x 10,000,000

    15. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “While we are stuck in this Union we need to behave responsibly”

      The SNP’s responsibility is to Scotland. The UK is leaving the EU. Scotland doesn’t have to.

    16. Bob Mack says:

      I have always held the view that there is more than one single track road to independence. It can come from Scottish voters ideally, but it can also be aided along by the resentment of English and Welsh voters who were forced to accept something they bitterly oppose. A Brexit deal that ties the UK indefinitely to the EU.

      The outcry from the public down South against Scotland and the SNP would be significant, especially if Farage and the other parties do well.

      The time to strike is now. That is how battles are won by the General with the element of up rise and decisiveness in their armoury.

      Play every card available to cause friction and disharmony.

      Callous yes, but we are in a struggle for something that justifies it. Our freedom.

    17. ian stewart says:

      The truth is Brexit is an economical disaster for the UK. Scottish Independence is a gargantuan economical disaster for rUK. And they know it fine. The pound will fall like a stone plunging the rUK into the mother of all depressions. Any deal with WM whatever colour Gov will not be honoured.

    18. John Gibson says:

      What Doug Bryce said.

    19. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Many people will switch to Yes after Brexit, as we know. But a lot of those voters would be reluctant if the SG had not first tried their best to prevent Scotland leaving the EU.”

      Sorry, but this is bollocks.

      (a) The SG has been doing its best and it’s totally failed to shift the polls in any meaningful way. However, if you make it a reality rather than an abstract concept, people have to confront it and make a choice.

      (b) As I keep saying, IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT THE POLLS ARE ANYWAY IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO HOLD A REFERENDUM.

      (c) Rejoining the EU will get harder and harder every day we’re out of it, and our laws diverge further and further from the Acquis Communitaire, and also as people simply get used to Brexit. People get used to anything in time.

    20. Vestas says:

      May wouldn’t offer that IMHO.

      She knows she’s history as PM very very soon and isn’t going to be the one remembered for “breaking up our precious union”.

      One of the tories might but I don’t think May will.

    21. Paul Newton says:

      “The UK is never going to be a less attractive option”

      Not so sure about that one Stu

      As the boys in Bachman Turner overdrive used to say

      You ain’t seen nothin yet, no no no baby you ain’t seen nothing yet.

      Give it another 2 or 3 years and 70% will be begging to get the hell out.

    22. jfngw says:

      I agree with a lot of what the Rev has said, it is not the SNP job to try and save England. But they were elected to Remain and I suspect they will always vote for this.

      It also requires a level of trust in Westminster (all the unionist parties) that they will actually carry out what they agreed. This is a place that would happily rip up the GFA if they could to facilitate Brexit, an international treaty, how much respect would they have for one with just Scotland.

      Also the MSM would have a field day with unionist that want to stay in both UK & EU, but could be swung to EU. It would be played out as pure opportunism.

      And to be honest I’m not convinced Westminster would have respected the 2014 vote, pretty sure they would have been pushing for a confirmatory referendum (just like the one they currently oppose).

      We are always up against it with near total MSM opposition and a state broadcaster where truth is controlled through a UK prism.

    23. Martin says:

      Agreed, it’s an offer only a fool would refuse. What I would say though is that she should only agree if the indyref2 power transfer is signed before the SNP vote for May’s deal.

    24. Footsoldier says:

      I think our chance could come if May is ousted and Boris becomes PM.

    25. Hamish100 says:

      Too many people outwith the SNP complain about SNP policy. Answer — Join the snp and change it or greet from the sidelines or vote tory /labour.

    26. Robert Louis says:

      Revstu is bang on the money here.

      The SNP seem obsessed with preventing brexit, rather than gaining independence. Now, it is all well and good, perhaps in the early days following the brexit referendum to have tried to stop brexit, but let’s be honest, they have just been spat on by London. Over and over and over again, they have tried to reason, and have been sneered at, laughed at told by Tories to ‘go home’, and even swore at in the house of commons. At what point will the SNP accept reality???

      So, REV STU is absolutely correct. The focus now of the Scotgov should be to uphold their electoral mandate and the clear democratic wishes of the people of Scotland, and keep Scotland in the EU.

      So, that will mean independence. Since it is abundantly clear that London doesn’t give a flying f*** what Scotland wants, and is hellbent on brexit (supported by both Labour AND Tories), then Scotland should use the leverage they have and back the brexit deal on the absolute provision that a referendum on Scottish independence, free of London interference (unlike last time) is held.

      If they don’t, brexit will happen anyway.

      This is what they should be discussing at the SNP conference.

      For god’s sake, Nicola, get on with it. Both Labour and Tories support brexit, so it is going to happen no matter what, so Scotland should use the power they have to save Scotland, and give us independence.

      THIS article is one of the many reasons I support Wings. THIS.

      Let’s hope the SNP leadership read it, sniff the coffee and wake up to the reality of what is ACTUALLY going to happen whether they argue against it or not.

    27. Cubby says:

      IMO sect 30 is a red herring. They didn’t exactly honour the vow or all the other promises made in 2014. The Britnats are just liars, full of deceit, that can never be trusted. Britnats believe England owns Scotland and they won’t give up their golden possession without trying every dirty trick in the book.

      Britnats are phoney democrats. Continuing to request a sect 30 has the benefit of highlighting this fact.

      They will continue to deny a sect 30 as long as Scotland has a decent chance of voting yes. A non sect 30 plan for independence is required.

      The most important poll is the exit poll. Funny how they didn’t do one for the referendums. Well one that was publicised.

    28. Gary45% says:

      Capella@11.44
      “IMO Westminster will cancel BREXIT before it will allow Scotland to escape”, the wife and I discussed this very subject last night, and came to the same conclusion, looks like an even madder few months ahead.
      Tin foil bunnet and gum shields at the ready.

    29. Robert Louis says:

      Or maybe…..we should wait and see…you know …wait another year or two, see what happens, then maybe wait and see for a wee while longer.

      Meanwhile brexit happens, and Scotland is removed from the EU by force against its wishes.

      but, but, but we could just wait and see, maybe until 2021, or maybe after the next scot elections, I mean what if it rains, or something else happens. Best wait a bit, eh?? just another year or two, let brexit’s effects trash the Scots economy first. Then people will be really angry, won’t they? eh? And maybe if we wait long enough, England will give us ‘permission’ to hold a referendum, if we ask really really nicely over and over again.

    30. Millsy says:

      I can understand the posters on here who rage against the seeming delaying tactics of the SNP government, but they have to understand that not every voter in Scotland feels this way . Too many , at the moment , do not feel that Independence is the way forward – difficult as that may be to accept .
      However , the time to bite the bullet is coming very soon , I feel .Before the end of this year !

    31. ahundredthidiot says:

      I have suggested exactly this scenario previously – it is grown up time and that means thinking pragmatically – a pact with either Labour or the Tories. 35 seats can go a long way……but it would definitely need to be water tight.

      Alas, it is outwith the control of the SNP, just being open to the idea though…….

      Cries of ‘the SNP delivered Brexit’ would soon be forgotten as people focus on indyref2 and what our place in the EU would look like. We could be the gun that puts the poor miserable animal out of its misery.

      He who dares…..

    32. Robert Louis says:

      Hamish 100 at 1239

      But isn’t that just a bit glib. How about the SNP leadership start paying attention to what indy supporters say, regardless. They are their CORE voters, after all.

    33. Dave Beveridge says:

      If the SNP vote with the Tories on this monumental issue can you imagine the MSM up here? It’ll be like ’79 but on steroids with the Tartan Tories jibes, particularly when it turns into the disaster it’s going to be.

      How do you think that’ll play with the Labour-voting electorate and those over a certain age?

      I don’t know what the answer is but NS better have something up her sleeve. I’m not convinced she has though.

    34. Robert Louis says:

      ahundredthidiot at 12 47pm,

      Totally agree. Scotland could put them all out of their misery. England gets its brexit, which both Labour and Tories want, and Scotland gets independence and stays in the EU.

    35. kapelmeister says:

      Rev Stu @ 12.16pm

      A lot of Scots who are pro-UK and pro-EU would just have become disillusioned with all politics and given up voting if the SNP had not genuinely explored ways of avoiding Brexit.

      As it is, Sturgeon has retained or gained respect from this group of voters, which will surely benefit Yes in indyref2.

    36. starlaw says:

      Westminster can never be trusted. It is also worth noting that the EU have already made contact with the new Ukrainian president with a view to joining the EU. EU rules are not set in stone and look at our assets, re-joining the Eu will not be a great problem, the EU will come to us.

    37. Legerwood says:

      So you want the Scottish Government to support the Brexit policy of the Tory Government in London which we know will impoverish the people in the UK and in Scotland in particular will lead to the loss of 100,000 jobs or more.

      How casually you throw people to the wolves and in pursuit of what exactly? Independence? How many people would support independence under those circumstances especially independence proposed by a Scottish Government whose policies in pursuit of independence have beggared the country as what you are proposing surely would?

      Such a policy as you propose does not in any shape or form make the case for Scotland to pursue a different course such as that presented by independence whereas the route the Scottish Government has taken since the EU referendum has clearly signposted independence as the obvious choice.

      They have proposed a policy, membership of the Customs Union and Single Market with freedom of movement (CU&SM) that would to a large extent protect the people of Scotland and its economy from the worst effects of Brexit. As any sensible and responsible Government should do.

      Some have characterised this as ‘trying to save England’. No it is not. Any appearance of that being the case is merely a reflection of the current constitutional arrangement whereby to put the policy into effect Scotland must go through Westminster to implement what is a reasonable policy that any sensible Government should pursue to protect its people but of course the Tory Government with the support of its Labour handmaidens is not.

      In proposing and pursuing this policy and being roundly ignored by Westminster the Scottish Government have very clearly demonstrated to the people of Scotland that the current settlement does not work for Scotland thus promoting Independence as a positive route to take. More clearly and more viscerally than any talk of ‘getting the gov we voted for’ or Scots votes only made a difference in 3 out of the last x number of GEs’

      In promoting and pursuing CU&SM the Scottish Government have proposed a course, if adopted,that would protect Scotland’s economy ahead of Independence and during the interregnum between voting for independence and becoming independent. Thus ensuring the economy is strong enough to withstand the hit that independence might bring. It might also mean that in the immediate aftermath of independence the EU might allow Scotland to continue in the CU&SM while the terms and conditions of full membership are negotiated.

      So nothing whatsoever to do with saving England but everything to do with ensuring the well-being of Scotland and the people of Scotland and demonstrating conclusively that independence is the only guarantor of ensuring that.

    38. Robert Louis says:

      Millsy at 1247

      Yes, but opinions on independence will not change until such time as a referendum is called. In any other circumstances, the media ignore the idea. We need the referendum called.

    39. Breeks says:

      I “think” Brexit will happen with or without our “cooperation”, but I think we are better placed strategically to let the Brexiteers make it happen. If they don’t appreciate the Union dies if Scotland is subjugated, then they cannot deny having been given adequate warning.

      All this fuss about a Section 30 Agreement, and whether it’s necessary or not, is essentially the same Constitutional argument about whether a Referendum vote to “be” Constitutionally Sovereign is undone, either by being sovereign already and empowered to hold any vote you like, or, not being Sovereign before the vote, in which case your vote has no “sovereign” potency, and nobody is obliged to respect it. – See Catalonia.

      God, what a mess. We tie ourselves up in knots, and we allow the Union to tie us up in even more knots because our own appreciation of what Constitutional Sovereignty actually means is such a complete dog’s breakfast.

      For long enough, we thought returning an SNP majority to Westminster was our ticket to freedom. Clearly not. Some opinion contends that Alex Salmond somehow forfeited Scottish Sovereignty in negotiating a Section 30 Agreement for 2014. Now it’s Referendum to be held under “lent” Sovereignty or special dispensation???

      The Union is like a magic porridge bowl, but instead of producing a never ending supply of porridge, it produces endless obfuscation and sophistry designed to surround Scottish Sovereignty with an impenetrable mire of confusion and ambiguity. But for all of that complexity and confusion, there is an inescapable truth that Westminster has not got the authority to wield or alter the Sovereign Constitution of Scotland which is enshrined within the people. Somewhere in the muck lies that unalterable certainty, and the Westminster Establishment continually strives to make sure we never grasp it.

      It is a fiction to believe Westminster can, or has, removed that Sovereignty from the people, and it is an equal fiction to believe the Scottish people can by accident or design “vote away” their sovereign birthright. Do you understand the word fiction? It is not true. It is made up. It is not fact. We are still the sovereign citizens of Scotland.

      I’m sorry, but the whole Independence Movement seems blithely indifferent to the essential ramifications of what being sovereign actually means, and as a direct consequence, we have no permanent grasp of where the finishing line actually is. We have no concrete understanding of which votes matter, and why they matter, and where, when or why they don’t. We are overthinking this issue over, and over again. Jesus it’s tiresome.

      Just by way of example. Take the 2014 Referendum Question. Should Scotland be an Independent Country? Voting YES would have ended the Union, voting NO manifestly didn’t, but Constitutionally, voting NO was just as sovereign an edict as voting YES would have been, so in Constitutional terms, the 2014 YES Referendum was Constitutionally void. Do you see? What did it actually decide??? All that effort put into deciding the wrong thing. We were sovereign before the vote, and no less sovereign after it.

      We don’t need any “new” Constitution. What we really do need is essential clarity on the sovereign Constitution we’ve already got. Scotland’s Sovereignty is lawful, robust and extant, which means Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty is unlawful, flawed, and ultra vires. It is NOT POSSIBLE TO DUAL SOVEREIGNTY in the way the United Kingdom presents itself. Sovereignty is an absolute binary condition. You are, or you are not. Grasp that concept, and you will know EXACTLY where the finishing line is.

    40. Petra says:

      Just the other day there you were telling us that we were caught in the trap of never finding ourselves in the position of acquiring a Section 30 Order and now this!

      “Independence may be the SNP’s primary if not sole reason to exist”, however Nicola Sturgeon is FM for all of Scotland, hence fighting to keep us in the EU. Brexit is not the only issue that gives them a mandate for IndyRef2 either, for example the newspapers right now are making a meal of the fact that the SNP don’t have a majority of Scots supporting Independence. If we did Brexit would count for nothing.

      It’s a crazy idea and seemingly just another article enabling the dissing of Nicola Sturgeon.

      Scotland’s more important to Westminster than Brexit. Theresa May, of the Conservative and Unionist Party, will never go down in history as the PM that dissolved the Union. We can forget that one.

    41. Robert Louis says:

      Starlaw at 1250pm

      Or, we could become independent and just stay in the EU.

    42. Tony O"neill says:

      Scotland needs to feel the scorched earth reality of a hard brexit to turn demand for indy into an unstoppable force imo, bring it on.

    43. Athanasius says:

      It strikes me the SNP have not mentally left the UK. Unfortunately, that seems to be a position representative of too many Scots – including many who call themselves nationalists. Until they do, they’ll always be carrying water for England, and they can play the chippy jock till the cows come home, but it’ll be London having the last laugh.

    44. Robert Louis says:

      I keep seeing people say things like, ‘well, brexit when it happens, will definitely end the union’. How?? Just how will brexit end the union?

      People utter this as though it is a universal law of nature, yet it isn’t. Do you not think that Westminster has already put in place its very own plans post brexit, to keep Scotland in its place, under London’s boot??

      People might be annoyed when brexit happens, they may even be angry, but that won’t end the union.

    45. Confused says:

      like a lot of people I use wings as a filter on the MSM – saves time – but unlike a lot of wingers, I suspect, I go wandering far afield …

      this is what MIDDLE ENGLAND REALLY THINKS –

      england is ruined because of multiculturalism
      – it was yourup wot dun it
      – if we leave the EU, then its “wogs aht” and soon
      a NEW BRITISH EMPIRE
      – the “anglosphere” will be only too happy to help us – white people unite !
      – tommy robinson ! our nige ! batten is our boy ! jacob rees mogg !!
      enoch was right
      mosley wasn’t wrong

      there is also a residual class angle – the north – the old ex-working class – look down south at the london elite, the bbc/guardian middle class who did great out of thatcherism – those whose jobs WERE NOT sent east … and they HATE them and just want to hurt them; a bit of a peasants revolt

      when people are really nuts, there is nothing you can do for them, but walk away – there is SO MUCH totally wrong with their analysis (- most immigration comes from the commonwealth … etc) – you wouldnt know where to start, never mind change their minds, but what for …

      this little englander crows about “inglund fuh thuh inglish” – failing to point out that “inglund” for them includes scotland, ireland (all of it), wales … and india, USA etc as well if they could manage it

      I was watching royston vasey live the other night and I used to be awed by the “dark, grotesque” comedy – now it just seems like a fly on the wall documentary
      – are you local / they want to touch the precious things … hard brexit now edward!

      get out. get out now.

      the ball is on the spot. the keeper is smoking skunk. the defenders in the tunnel playing cards. everyone is screaming – kick it …
      – but we still need to actually make a move.

      there seems to be some residual belief that -somehow- the “english left” and the “bbc/guardian liberals” are our allies – but they aren’t – they are also unionists; stop trying to triangulate some compromise deal with them.

      the “english left” are also a bust – galloways tired bromides about the “working class of glasgow and liverpool” – the english working class are also at heart little englanders, and when thrown a bone – will sing GSTQ like the rest of them; they like the idea that “to be born an englishman is to have won lifes lottery”. fuck them too. (- this drove karl marx nuts)

    46. Finnmacollie says:

      I see a (not so) wee problem with this idea.
      It will be difficult to argue that we are being taken out of the EU against our will if we have voted FOR taking the UK out.

      I know the MSM don’t need any excuses to get in about the Yes movement, but this would hand them a big stick with which to beat harder. It could turn into the next “Youse voted Thatcher into power” moment.

    47. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood at 12:51pm ….

      Excellent post Legerwood.

    48. Effijy says:

      Radio Shortbread this morning-
      House of Lords say end index linked pension, free bus passes, free TV Licences for over 75’s and end the Fuel Benefit?

      What a hideous clump of parasites the HoL is.

      The need Ermine Robs, £300 per day to sleep, have subsidised food an Drink, etc and they have the nerve to say our pensioners don’t deserve the benefits they worked for over 50 years.

      Our pensioners have the 4th worst support across the 28 EU Nations. Smaller countries like Ireland provide much better support and they didn’t benefit from a sea of oil rolling in for the last 45 years.

      How about Norway or Germany were pensions are 3 or 4 times that of the UK.

      Westminster has the nerve to say that the UK is rich and powerful. Only for the rich and powerful it is.

      So these cuts could make the UK the worst of all EU Nations
      and these parasites recommend it.

      Yes let’s do this and ensure further reductions on Corporation Tax, Inheritance Tax and the Top rate of Tax.

      To think this makes sense to pensioners is complete insanity.

      Yet another reason to get well shot of England’s political mess.

    49. geeo says:

      It is a real concern when this blog produces articles which appear to agree with utter morons like coco.

      It is an airy fairy concept anyway, as Treeza will never ever offer such a thing, and if the SNP offer it and get laughed at, that will only damage the SNP.

    50. Robert Louis says:

      Athanasius at 1257pm

      I agree, the mindset within the SNP is still very London centric, still playing by London’s rules, which apply to everyone except London. They should instead be thinking and behaving as a sovereign country, and stop giving so much credence to what Westminster thinks and says. They treat us with contempt, so it is about time we reciprocated.

      No other country in the world would tolerate this tawdry undemocratic ‘union’ for one second. That should be number 1 item on Scotgov business from now on.

    51. Bob Mack says:

      The SNP are only the vehicle we must purchase a ticket for to reach our final destination. They might not necessarily be my choice for an independent Scotland, but they are the only one realistically going to my chosen destination.

      I have put the SNP as my vote above all other considerations.because of their promise to independence.
      If I can do that,why can’t they?

    52. Tam the Bam. says:

      Off topic:

      Just watched Angus Robertson on Politics Live.
      God how we need him back!

    53. bobajock says:

      Two ways of seeing this.

      No ideas – missing a chance, and seriously hindering an opportunity.

      Or
      Try your hardest, but watch things fall apart down south while ignoring Scotland, try everything.

      but why the 2nd option?

      To persuade soft No’s that you tried everything and illustrate how broken the union is.

    54. Stravaiger says:

      Breeks’s post at 12:53 is one that’s worth reading over a few times. Did you read it? Ok, read it again.

    55. K1 says:

      SNP won’t go along with any deal that doesn’t have CU and SM as part of it, imv. They voted against the CU amendment on one of the meaningful votes, had to repeatedly clarify afterwards that a CU was not sufficient to prevent the economic fallout that would result in Scotland, as we need FOM to maintain our economy.

      If by ‘saving’ the Peace process by allowing NI to diverge from rUK’s UKexit to maintain no hard border we find ourselves exiting with England and Wales, how does that give us any chance/opportunity to ‘stay’ within the EU and get out of the UK…at the exact same time?

      If in your above scenario the SNP did go along with a CU only option to get ‘May’s’ deal through in exchange for an Indy2 Sec 30, we’d still be exiting ‘before’ our indy2 could take place as the ratification would be swift as fuck from the EU27, do we seriously think that the EU27 will wait for Scotland to have an indy2 before ratifying UKexit on terms that they have already agreed to wrt to WA?

      That the EU27 would suffer any further extension period for this to happen?

      And I do agree with some other comments wrt the ‘optics’ on this, SNP would be spun as the handmaiden’s of UKexit, I don’t think they should touch this with a barge pole even for a Sec 30 order.

    56. SilverDarling says:

      Do we want Independence?
      Will we do anything to get it?
      Is Independence more important than the SNP and the rUK?

      Ask yourself this, is keeping the SNP in power in Holyrood and as a presence in Westminster indefinitely more important to you than Independence?

      If so, do you really want Independence?

    57. Capella says:

      @ Gary 45% – TBH – Nobody will stand up in Parliament and say “We are cancelling BREXIT”. They will say “We are delivering BREXIT”. Then there will be endless prevarication about what everything means. It will go on for decades.

      So once the Scottish Government passes the legislation needed for a referendum they will go ahead with or without a S30 and Westminster will have to go to court to prevent the inevitable. IMO.

    58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Give it another 2 or 3 years and 70% will be begging to get the hell out.”

      That’s not how humans work. People get used to things. People got used to the Blitz. They got used to life in Stalingrad. Brexit won’t impact all that many people in immediately obvious ways, and even if it does we’ll still just get the same arguments that “independence will make everything even worse!”

    59. Scottish Steve says:

      Yes, I’m sure Westminster would agree to that and then immediately renege on such a deal. “Thanks for passing my deal, SNP but no, I’ve changed my mind. Scotland’s not getting a second indyref.”

      I’d sooner trust a fox in a chicken coop before I’d trust any sort of deal or agreement made with Westminster politicians.

    60. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Nicola Sturgeon is FM for all of Scotland, hence fighting to keep us in the EU”

      Yes, that’s exactly right – for all of SCOTLAND, not England and Wales which voted to leave the EU. Independence is the only way to keep Scotland in the EU. Her responsibility to Scotland is to achieve that.

    61. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Yes, I’m sure Westminster would agree to that and then immediately renege on such a deal. “Thanks for passing my deal, SNP but no, I’ve changed my mind. Scotland’s not getting a second indyref.””

      Fucksake, I really hate it when people comment without reading the rest of the comments first.

    62. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I see a (not so) wee problem with this idea.
      It will be difficult to argue that we are being taken out of the EU against our will if we have voted FOR taking the UK out.

      I know the MSM don’t need any excuses to get in about the Yes movement, but this would hand them a big stick with which to beat harder. It could turn into the next “Youse voted Thatcher into power” moment.”

      Sigh. Labour have been banging on about 1979 for 40 years. Where has it got them? Third place. Who gives a fuck what they say?

      The SNP will NOT have voted “for taking the UK out”. They’ll have voted to give Scotland a chance to stay in, while respecting the democratic wishes of England and Wales and doing what they can to protect Ireland.

    63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “We don’t need any “new” Constitution. What we really do need is essential clarity on the sovereign Constitution we’ve already got. Scotland’s Sovereignty is lawful, robust and extant, which means Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty is unlawful, flawed, and ultra vires. It is NOT POSSIBLE TO DUAL SOVEREIGNTY in the way the United Kingdom presents itself. Sovereignty is an absolute binary condition. You are, or you are not. Grasp that concept, and you will know EXACTLY where the finishing line is.”

      Good luck declaring UDI by yourself.

    64. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “In promoting and pursuing CU&SM the Scottish Government have proposed a course, if adopted”

      If we’re dreaming, I’d also like a castle.

    65. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Problem: unless that message is carried with steel the SNP would get leathered at the ballot box. Carries a lot of issues.

      Tartan Tories x 10,000,000”

      Being called Tartan Tories by Labour doesn’t seem to have hurt them much so far.

    66. mogabee says:

      I’m completely torn with this.

      I don’t like the idea of agreeing with Tories, but agree it would get England what it voted for.

      Still trying to work my way through the pros and cons and may have to go lie down for the rest of the day!!

      Hey Stu, thanks for this conundrum…not! 😀

    67. Clydebuilt says:

      “People get used to things. People got used to the Blitz. They got used to life in Stalingrad…… “ Not to forget Gazza

      Not sure that there was any choice involved during The Blitz Stalingrad or life in Gazza. Other than the obvious.
      Will people forget that we have a way out . . . The Yes movement won’t let them, on the other hand the Tories(if they haven’t split and still in power) will attempt to avoid a cliff edge, trying to introduce the downfall over a period of time eg. Gove’s talking about maintaining farm payments for 5 yrs . The amnesia helped along by the propaganda outlets So it would be a battle between Yessers and the Establishment trying to conceal the downfall.

    68. Paul Newton says:

      That’s not how humans work. People get used to things. People got used to the Blitz. They got used to life in Stalingrad. Brexit won’t impact all that many people in immediately obvious ways,

      That’s a load of bollox Stu, I think the people wanted an end to both the blitz and Stalingrad. Brexit will affect people in many immediately obvious ways.
      Higher prices.
      Lost jobs.
      Property price falls.
      Bigger cuts.
      Restricted travel & residency.

      Nicola is dead right playing the long game here, if we give England enough rope they will undoubtedly hang themselves……let them feckin swing….it’s only then that the soft no’s will swing our way and victory is virtually assured.

      A lot of Yessers seem to suffer from premature ejaculation at the moment. The Brexit debate is only foreplay….it’s when Westminster deliver Brexit (against Scotland’s wishes) that we can really move in and fuck them.

    69. A2 says:

      Bottom line is, the SNP dosn’t have the confidence that indyref2 can be won right now. over hearing the conversations of soft nos at my work so far that pessimism is well founded.

    70. Frank Gillougley says:

      Now that IS an entertaining belter of a proposition, but I suspect that politically and culturally it would never happen. So:

      1. Brexit plays out to its denouement
      2. Scotland is out of the EU.
      3. A referendum is held in Scotland (without a S30 as it has not been forthcoming) as an expression of the people’s political will.
      4. The result is an overwhelming mandate for an independent Scottish nation state (within or without the EU)
      5. At some point in time, the legalities of the necessity of obtaining a S30 are judged in the UK supreme court.
      6. If not favourable, then the Scottish Government takes its case of this sovereign people to the United Nations and international law.
      7. Scotland is recognised as an independent nation state.

      But 90% of us will have shuffled off our mortal coil by then, so can history just speed up a bit and get on with it?

    71. Jamie says:

      I wonder if it is time to organise civil disobedience to achieve either scottish independence or the right of the Scottish parliament to hold a referendum legally without section 30 in future? Maybe something emulating india and muhatma ghandi or what lithuania did to achieve independence from their soviet union.

    72. shug says:

      While Nicola is in charge I will go with her judgement. One has to trust our leader who has a better view of what is going on.

      I would like to know what Salmond thinks – he is a wheeler dealer and as the Queensferry Crossing and Megrahy showed knows how to deal cards.

    73. Big Jock says:

      They could indeed follow your suggestion Stu. But I really think the SNP are stuck in their own heads over this. They seem to not want to get off this peoples vote idea.

      It was a move the Nicola took in order to appear to be doing everything before jumping to independence. So as to appear like they were only going for indy as a final last resort. When in fact it should be independence first and always first.

      They could even agree just to opt out of the voting on the deal. they could argue that it was for the people of England and Wales to decide. The reasoning being that Scotland would then decide for itself in a referendum after the deal is passed.

      However the most likely outcome now is more of the same, waiting for a favourable wind. Like a ship stuck in the doldrums.

      They have painted themselves into a corner, and are afraid of the messy walk to freedom.

    74. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T

      FMs recent announcement really has the BritNats rattled.

      R4 currently rerunning radio play “First World Problems.”

      “the five-part series was commissioned off the back of the Scottish Independence Referendum and the UK’s vote to leave the European Union” and first aired in June 2018.

      Advertised as “What would happen if the UK broke apart? In this everyday story of British folk, David and Ruth Fletcher face our next civil war.”

      “Martin Jameson’s drama draws on detailed research from BBC correspondents to analysts, contingency planners, and those with first hand experience of the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s, to make the Fletchers’ adventures a compelling account of what civil war could do to us all.”

      That’ll raise the Blood Pressure in the Home Counties and straight on after The Archers.

      😉

    75. Big Jock says:

      Shug – It’s your choice but the evidence suggests that Nicola is all over the place with her logic. She has made an error of judgement. The evidence being that we are 3 years down the line and not a step closer to a referendum.

      My trust in leaders is not blind. When they are on the wrong path it’s up to us to point it out. We cannot just keep saying trust Nicola. We all have as much insight into the future as Nicola does.

      Sometimes leaders get it wrong the same for all of us.

    76. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Also in other news:

      “HMS BBC Scotland sent to the Clyde as tension over IndyRef2 rises”

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Deasbad/status/1121705769693515776/photo/1

      🙂

    77. Cactus says:

      Independence should always be front and centre

    78. Maria F says:

      “If the SNP were to vote for Theresa May’s deal in exchange for a second indyref they’d be doing the rest of the UK a service”

      I am sorry Rev, but I disagree with you on this in the strongest possible terms.

      In my view the SNP does not have a mandate to surrender in to the kingdom of England our consent for brexit. We have not consented for brexit, our parliament has not consented for brexit. The SNP, the exact same as the hypocrites in Scottish seats from labour, tories and lidbems do not have a mandate to vote for brexit on our behalf, and I am sorry, but voting for that stupid deal is voting for brexit, aka giving our consent for brexit via the back door – that is exactly what May and her minions like Mundell and the “legal tory brain” in Holyrood are desperate to get.

      In my view, should the SNP do that, and they would be killing of immediately any reason to have an indyref – to take us out of the EU against our will. In addition, that backstop is a huge disadvantage for Scotland, who will not longer be at the same level as NI to compete for trade and business.

      No, I am of the opinion that the SNP must reject brexit until their last breath and fight as hard as they can to overturn brexit for the entire UK. Why?

      Because this is a union of equals and frankly, Scotland, an equal partner, has as much right as the Kingdom of England to determine the direction of travel of the UK.

      It is for the UK gov to decide how to merge both diametrically opposed views, not for the SNP to do so. What the UK gov should have done was to reject Brexit on the basis of lack of consensus between the 2 partners of the UK, but they chose to pander to the VIP taxdodgers and foreign interests instead.

      If the UK was a real democracy, brexit would have stopped right on its tracks the day after the EU referendum, when it was evident that only the kingdom of England had voted for brexit.

      If the UK was a democracy, the immediate step would have been to offer the Kingdom of England the option to vote to dissolve the UK so they could leave the EU or to remain in the EU so the UK could be preserved.

      But the coward England MPs will never grow the backbone for that, so they are doing exactly the opposite: to force the kingdom of England’s will over Scotland and to force Scotland to have the referendum instead. Why?

      Because it is easier for them to control a small referendum while they have control of broadcasting, MSM, funding etc, etc and no matter what result they will not lose their seats. Should they have to face a referendum in England and they would be facing losing their seats and the impossibility of having their cake and eat it: brexit + retaining Scotland in the UK. No, such a referendum in England would mean that they can only have one of the two.

    79. Abulhaq says:

      “Circumstances are never, ever going to get better than now. The UK is never going to be a less attractive option”.
      Some see it, some don’t and like any golden opportunity summoning the courage to seize it may be the toughest bit. In ‘conservative’ cultures like Scotland such intitiative may frighten the natives.
      Being prepared to risk that is the mark of true leadership. The goal is certainly worth the stake.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      Another article that had to be written, but with which I largely disagree.

      Intentionally or not, it covers the Devil’s Advocate position very thoroughly.

    81. Bill Hume says:

      I personally would not do a deal with either the Tories or Labour.
      Let the UK crash out of the EU or let May get her bad deal through Westminster. Both are wins for Scottish independence.

      Then we have our referendum, with or without an S30.

      If we do not gain independence, it’s not the end of the world.

      Remember, we were told in 2014 that it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity…….it wasn’t.

    82. Liz g says:

      It’s certainly an Idea worth floating!
      While I don’t think that the SNP would go for it and that it could actually happen with the watertight as possible arrangements we’d need.
      That the SNP would do this,would set the cat among the pigeons for how the Brexit supporters respond in having to dial back the hate towards the party who could actually deliver Brexit.
      The remain supporters (the ones who are only friendly while our MPs are backing what they want) would have the rug pulled from under their campaign and show what fairweather friends they really are..
      But the main thing is,what exploring this would do,is flush out the House of Lord’s position….
      If I remember right, in 2014 when Yes was pulling ahead,the Lord’s started to question if David Cameron actually had the right to agree to the Section 30 order in the first place. (loosely the Gina Miller approach, that Government couldn’t just go ahead with such a far reaching approach to Constitutional change)
      The Lord’s were looking for a way to void the 2014 referendum!

      Sooo… In theory if May looks like offering a referendum for Brexit,it will set the Lord’s and the Commons head to head and potentially clarifying how watertight any Section 30 would be under any conditions.
      All the while causing more chaos in Westminster and still not delivering Brexit…. I like your thinking Rev… While and if we’re to be in this bloody Union,we need to be letting Westminster know it!!

    83. Josef Ó Luain says:

      “We’ll have to wait and see what happens”: Comrade Nicola is working within the sound-framework of Leninist strategic principles, in as much as, because the unenlightened masses will always be impatient with the omniscient march forward of the Party, they have to be promised jam – tomorrow.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      One problem is of course that May can’t even get her own deal through the UK parlaiment, let alone be certain to get an S30 through! So the S30 would have to be done and dusted first, Royal Assent the lot – or better still, permanent devolution of the ability to hold a referendum at any time.

      The main selfish problem though is that if the rUK gets its economy in a poor state, that affects our economy too.

      The unselfish one for our family, friends and neighbours? Yes indeed, save them from themselves. It’s a moral duty because, like it or not, we’ve co-habited for 312 years.

      Think of the children!

    85. Sinky says:

      From Business for Scotland on currency debate:

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/bfs-on-currency-and-that-key-snp-conference-vote/

      Put simply, any fully empowered government, of any colour, using any currency, governing Scotland from Holyrood to put Scotland’s interests first will always deliver better outcomes for Scotland than any Government of any colour, governing Scotland from Westminster with Scotland’s interests subjugated by those of the larger nation.

      So the question is what currency option should an independent Scotland adopt?

      BfS gave clear evidence to the SGC that the best solution was to say that Scotland will have its own sovereign currency when it becomes advantageous to do so. So to begin with there would be no change to the currency used by the people of Scotland but when it benefits the people of Scotland to move to a sovereign currency we will do so.

      No set timescales, no dogmatic adherence to instant new currency because it’s the nationalist thing to do, let’s just make sure that when it works in our favour we can launch the currency and thrive. Flexibility is key in this approach, the Scottish Parliament should have the power to make the change when the time is right and that means that the SNP’s six tests are not flexible enough.

    86. Breeks says:


      Robert Louis says:
      26 April, 2019 at 12:59 pm
      I keep seeing people say things like, ‘well, brexit when it happens, will definitely end the union’. How?? Just how will brexit end the union?

      Well, the conventional belief seems to be that the act of dragging Scotland out of the EU against it’s democratically expressed will constitutes and act of colonial subjugation which is incompatible with the Treaties of Union, and will leave the Union formally “breached” and thereby at an end.

      Essentially, it’s our line in the sand, though technically, I think Westminster’s Article 50 Notification might have served equally well.

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      Another problem is that if Scotland voted YES to Indy, but the rUK Brexits and it’s a disaster as expected, the iScotGov would have to at least double the international Aid budget from the anticipated 0.75% to 1.5%, possibley quadruple to 3%. and probably a lot more, to provide international aid to our much larger neighbour.

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      Damn, we’d also have to borrow a lot more money to lend to them, in a similar way the UK lent money to Ireland in its post-2008 troubles while running a deficit, hence increasing its own borrowing.

    89. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis @ 12.59
      It’s not only the subjugation of Scotland’s status ( Breeks @ 3.09)that Breeches the Treaty.
      The N.Ireland backstop puts Scotland at a Trading disadvantage and that’s the one thing Treaty was actually not ment to do…
      That’s why May couldn’t agree to it for N.Ireland only!

    90. Cubby says:

      The party ( SNP ) that is promoting the fact that Scotland voted remain should then agree a pact to vote to enable scotland to leave the EU to happen ( after previously supporting a peoples vote ) to get a sec 30 is just totally BONKERS. Totally bonkers. A joke. It will not happen. It’s the most nonsense I’ve heard for some time.

      “Taken out of the EU AGAINST OUR WILL. “. That’s what the mandate for indyref2 says. How does the SNP facilitating this become against our will.

      Final word – BONKERS.

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra “It’s a crazy idea and seemingly just another article enabling the dissing of Nicola Sturgeon.

      Petra, the SNP conference is this weekend, a vitally important and potentially contentious one, and the Rev isn’t the only one trying to get ideas and different views listened to, using whatever influence or media we have.

      For that, now IS the time.

    92. gary says:

      It does kind of make sense, but…. NEVER trust wastemonster!! Canny hits the nail on the head!!

    93. North chiel says:

      Interesting post from “Frank Gillougley @ 0230pm. Not sure that (3) and (4) is necessary. (1) &(2) then skip to (5). Possibly (3) comes after (5) if favourable , otherwise (6). Thereafter (7) deemed by international court ( subject to referendum with or without section30).
      Could it possibly be that our FM is considering something along these lines where a referendum is required to “ confirm” independence?

    94. iainmore says:

      Well I am cheered by the thought that I am not the only person who thinks that the UK Govt regardless of its political colour will delay and delay Brexit to keep Scotland under its larcenous thumbs and jackboot. It is also obvious no Tory is going to keep to any agreement in relation to Brexit with any sort of deal in place. What bugs me is that the SNP and their apologetic sycophants appear to be utterly oblivious to these obvious scenarios.

      I have said it before as other have said it. There will be no Referendum in our lifetimes after 2021 as Holyrood will have an anti Scottish coalition running it and changing the rules so that no Pro Indy majority is possible ever again. Too many of us know this in our guts and the SNP refuse to see it. Our Yoon Lords and Master aren’t going to play fair. When are the SNP and their sycophants going to waken up?

      Rant over for now!

    95. RMFBrown says:

      “They’d earn at least the grudging respect of those troublesome Yes Leavers”

      As one of those ‘troublesome’ Yes Leavers, my rational has always been this: I see little point in winning our sovereignty from a racket in London, only to hand it over to another racket in Brussels. In saying that, I would take an indy Scotland in the EU tomorrow, if it were offered. Indy is always the number one priority, the rest can be sorted later.

      Another point I’d make is this: people have rightly asked me what my vision is for Indy Scotland if we’re out o the EU and the UK.

      The answer to that is simple – Scotland becomes a member of EFTA, like Norway and Switzerland. I’d quite happily pen a article for Wings, outlining this option, but the main points are this.

      1. If we’re in EFTA, we’re in the EEA, so we have access to the Single Market, so jobs and business is protected. And we benefit from the geopolitical ‘shield of being close to, but not part of, the EU. That keeps us safe from the predators of the USA and China, and gives us clout when dealing with what rump remains of the UK.

      2. Workers still have free movement in the EEA, so Scotland’s needs, especially it’s demographic needs, are protected.

      3. We get farming and fisheries back. Look at Norway and Iceland.

      4. We can pay into EU programs we want to be a part of, and although we’d still have to make a small contribution to the EU budget, we’d be free of things such as the ECJ having a say in our domestic affairs.

      5. We’d be able to strike our own trade deals around the world. EFTA has been successful in Singapore and South America, as an example.

      6. As a small nation of 5 million people, not looking to dominate other EFTA nations, and ready to work with other smaller nations, we’d be welcomed in with open arms.

      That’s just a few of the bonuses indy Scotland would get in EFTA. EEA/EFTA is a credible and proven treaty framework of many decades, and many of the myths of Norway being a rule-taker, are just that: myths.

    96. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Taken out of the EU AGAINST OUR WILL. “. That’s what the mandate for indyref2 says. How does the SNP facilitating this become against our will.”

      If there’s a referendum between remaining in the EU via independence, and leaving it by staying with the UK, and Scotland votes for the latter, it’ll no longer be against our will. The people will have chosen their fate.

    97. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Well, the conventional belief seems to be that the act of dragging Scotland out of the EU against it’s democratically expressed will constitutes and act of colonial subjugation which is incompatible with the Treaties of Union, and will leave the Union formally “breached” and thereby at an end.”

      That is NOT the “conventional belief”. That’s the belief of random internet nutters. If you want to bet £1 on the Scottish Government declaring independence on the grounds that the Acts Of Union have been breached, I’ll happily give you odds of a thousand billion trillion to one, and then I’ll go and spend your pound on crisps.

    98. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Because this is a union of equals”

      It really, really, really, really, really isn’t.

    99. Breeks says:


      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      26 April, 2019 at 1:33 pm

      Good luck declaring UDI by yourself.

      No UDI Rev Stu, but what if we asked the ECJ to clarify it’s judgement on Article 50, and in particular whether the sovereign prerogative to revoke Article 50 might be exercised unilaterally by Scotland, based upon Scotland’s Sovereignty, the Claim of Right, and Scotland’s democratic majority to remain in 2016.

      Where is the harm in asking?

      If they say yes, we either do it or negotiate from a position of absolute strength. If they say no, then we are no worse off than where we are now, but when Westminster recognises the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people, then in any rational judgement, how can the ECJ come to any different conclusion? What’s not to like about our Sovereignty being affirmed and our right to revoke Article 50 unilaterally being confirmed?

    100. Eric McLean says:

      Oh, how tired I am of all the pointless and circular arguments about Brexit, borders and independence.

      During the run up to the referendum, as we are all aware, one of the biggest arguments against independence was Scotland would be unable to remain in the EU. And now we are debating whether Scotland should consider the rest of UK, as various political factions try to avoid a hard Brexit.

      Brexit will happen. Especially as the soft Brexiters see it slipping away from them. A hard Brexit is better than no Brexit, in the eyes of the right. There will be a final bill passed and the UK will be out of the EU. There will be no need to participate in the EU elections.

      Imagine if there were a debate, vote or choice forcing the Tories (and others) to choose between Brexit or keeping Scotland in the Union, they would overwhelmingly vote for the latter.

      Why? Because Scottish Independence would mean the end of ‘Great Britain’ in the eyes of many Southerners. From their precious flag, to the shared history of the UK, to Scotland seeking a different political and economic path, to the simple ‘completeness’ of the coastline of this island. Just as continuing membership of the EU is the end of Great Britain in their eyes, and they hark back to the ‘good ole days’, so is Scottish Sovereignty.

      (Of course, we do not see it like this. Why should we? We don’t consider that we ‘own’ England, and the rest of the British Isles. Nor do we confuse political unions with geography.) We think similarly to Salmon’s old adage, ‘England would lose a surly lodger and gain a good neighbour.’

      During the Referendum, the Unionists used a variety of arguments, like giant rubber batons, to beat the independence debate and the nationalists senseless. We referred to it as project fear, smear and sneer.

      During Brexit, there has been little emphasis on Scottish Independence. It’s almost been subsumed and subdued by the ongoing Brexit political clusterfuck that started three years ago.

      There has however, been an ongoing anti-Independence propaganda project run out of Westminster. Hard to prove, easy to feel. Anyone who doesn’t believe that Scottish Independence is not tabled at the Westminster Security Council, as a ‘threat to the UK’, is delusional.

      Anyone who imagines that Holyrood’s patience during Brexit is rewarded by Westminster’s accommodation, are frankly naïve and have forgotten the Vow.

      After Brexit. And I am convinced that it will happen, due to the sheer duplicity and hegemony of the Tories, and the pig-headed, self-righteous ignorance of people like Farage and Tommy Robinson. After Brexit, Westminster will turn their attention to metaphorically shoring up the Great British Castle, quelling rebellions and executing ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

      Any initiative for Scottish Independence at this time will be met with a Project Fear worse than before. Except, perhaps the main argument will be that the ‘EU won’t take you back’ etc. (Really, I don’t have to write this, we all know the words by this time)
      The SNP should be pursuing Independence now. It should be clear that they are the party of Independence, not the Party of ‘Avoid Hard Brexit’

      Forget Brexit. Forget the arguments that will return after Brexit. NATO, Currency, Borders, Pensions, Trident, Cost of Living and Oil. These were the subject last time, where Westminster propaganda beat our attempts at logic and common sense.

      And the Fishing Communities of Scotland who are torn between Brexit and Independence, should recognise that only true self-government can ensure that they get the recognition as one of Scotland’s most important industries. (It will always be lesser to London business)

      There will always be decisions, discussions and disagreement inside any country.

      Who cares? The fact is these supposed important decisions are unimportant in the grand scheme of things. They are a step too far. And before you argue, ‘we need to know these things before voting YES’, let me say categorically that we don’t. And we will never all agree on them all anyway.

      Instead, what we need to know is that Independence ‘will put a political mechanism in place that will allow us to make the right decisions for Scotland’.

      We need to know that a YES vote will lead to an arrangement that really means, ‘…government of the people, by the people, for the people…’

      We need to know that any decisions that are taken can be influenced and changed by the electorate.

      We need to know that Scotland has the mettle, the confidence and the drive to take the reins of its own destiny and set out on a journey of hope, ambition, discovery and self-realization.

      We already know we have the resources. We have the land, the industry and the people. We already know that we pay our own way within the UK. We already know that ‘we have what it takes to be an independent country’. A number of people have generously advised of this including the Brexit initiator, ex-Prime Minister, David Cameron.

      I will say it again. We ONLY need to know that Independence will ensure that we have representatives in place that will take the right decisions for Scotland, and that we can vote them out the moment they don’t. Because this is exactly what they don’t have in England and what has led everyone to this ridiculous mess in the first place.

      The UK is broken. Westminster is an archaic, anachronistic, hegemonic monstrosity that serves London, the Elite, the Establishment and the South. The fact that they seek to drag Scotland out of the EU against our democratic will is deplorable. It is simple hegemony.

      Meantime, we should not be arguing about anything except a desire to get away from the Westminster mess and to manage our own affairs. Scotland should be allowed to take care of the needs or her own citizens, the best way possible, without the interference of Westminster or any other country. This is sovereignty.

      We should focus on the argument that Scotland needs to take the decisions that are important for Scotland, in Scotland.

      We need to pursue Independence now, not tomorrow or next year when Westminster has prepared again. Today. And we should do this assertively.

      If NS promised anything to May in their last meeting… She should recant it. “Now IS the time. Now IS the time.

    101. Maria F says:

      “It really, really, really, really, really isn’t”

      The only way we are going to get others to believe on us is if we start to believe on ourselves first.

      For as long as we continue pandering to the idea that Scotland is a subordinate in this union, we will be, deservedly, treated so.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      Meanwhile the National is up to 6058 subscribers and looking for more and more:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17601024.the-national-smashes-first-subscription-target-days-after-launching/

      perhaps the SNP conferendce will put in a good word, as it was a Sturgeon Roadshow where it was launched by Richard Walker.

    103. Robert Louis says:

      You know what I get really tired of, people saying that once brexit happens, it will be so bad that the polls for indy will shift. I really don’t think that is correct.

      If I said to you three years ago, that by 2019 the entire uk will be a mess and will be planning on leaving the EU, even though Scotland voted overwhelmingly against it, you would also have said, ‘well; if that happens, Nicola will have to call a referendum on indy, and if that happens, everyone in Scotland will be so angry that they will be demanding independence’…and so on.

      The fact is, ALL of that DID happen, but the polls have not shifted. So, suggesting that just one more thing..brexit actually happening, will tip things over the edge is just not realistic. People who are not political anoraks, mumble and grumble and talk of how they hate tories or labour or whatever, but they will get on with their lives, and will get used to it. And the full weight of the Uk gov media spin machine will be running on full power, with propaganda like most of us have not seen since the second world war.

      All of history shows this to be the case.

      To change a country, you need a leader to chart a course, and say ‘follow me’, and to try to take the people with them. You need to show the way. That is what Alex Salmond did. So far, since then, that has NOT happened.

    104. Robert Louis says:

      Maria 359pm,

      Quote “For as long as we continue pandering to the idea that Scotland is a subordinate in this union, we will be, deservedly, treated so.”

      EXACTLY.

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      I think once Brexit actually happens and the effects bite, the last thing people in Scotland will want is more change, more disruption, and more risks. Support for Indy will plummet, possibly to pre-IR1 levels of 30% or less.

    106. Robert Louis says:

      Eric Mclean at 359pm,

      Well said. Every word. Excellent post.

    107. Robert Louis says:

      yesindyref2,

      I think you are right. People will be feart of any more change, and Westminster will make sure they are very feart. Indy needs to happen before, not after brexit.

    108. James MacIntyre says:

      The Tories would not agree to an independence referendum in support of a Brexit deal. Hell, I know people who’d rather live in a apocalyptic hellscape if it meant we do not have another indy vote.

      The SNP *could* SAY they would support a Brexit deal in return for an independence referendum, but they would do a lot worse as many soft No’s would see the SNP as independence first, remain second.

      Second of all, think back to the referendum. When people in the Yes camp said it would “once in a generation”, it was not because they would stop campaigning in the event of a No vote. It was because Westminster would never agree to another referendum having been so close to losing.

      Frankly, the No (and Remain) campaign lied about this. The idea that “we could just vote for independence some other time”, or saying we would have another indy vote if we voted leave. It’s just a load of bollocks.

    109. schrodingers cat says:

      @legerwood
      well said

      also, is there time for indyref2 before the uk brexits? would the eu and wm delay enough for it to be held?

    110. cirsium says:

      @sinky, 3.09
      Flexibility is key in this approach, the Scottish Parliament should have the power to make the change when the time is right and that means that the SNP’s six tests are not flexible enough.

      I don’t think that flexibility is the key. Planning is the key. The introduction of our own currency should be treated as our YKK issue so there is an end date in the near future (2-3 years from day 1 of independence). This would ensure that we maintain focus and momentum. We continue to use the current currency while we deal with all the issues – setting up a mint, designing the currency, adapting ATM machines, transfer of government revenue, taxation, pensions, mortgages, savings to the new currency, setting up a timetable for implementation.

      If we do not have monetary sovereignty, we will never be free.

      Interesting post, Rev, but I don’t think that it is realistic. The UK cannot be trusted. Look what happened before and after IndyRef1.

    111. Cubby says:

      Methinks the site owner is playing devils advocate games.

      An SNP pact with a British party to facilitate scotland leaving the EU is bonkers. This would be a massive trap. You can never trust the Britnats to honour anything.

    112. Robert Louis says:

      Does everybody know that if you subscribe to ‘The National’ newspaper, you can get a free ‘wee ginger dug’.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/support-the-nationals-10000-steps-campaign-and-get-your-own-wee-ginger-dug/

      Scroll to bottom of article for link.

    113. Tom says:

      One thing an iScotland doesn’t want is a near-failed state next door – which is possibly what would happen with no-deal.

    114. The Doxer says:

      I’m not surprised that another Loyalist Rangers type is trolling.

      https://twitterleaks.club/wp/2019/04/26/bowwow71/

    115. Luigi says:

      I think more and more people are beginning to realise that a mother of all showdowns between Hollyrood and WM is looming. In fact, it is necessary. The thing is, the Brexit fog has yet to clear and when the can runs out of road (and it will), something has to give and that’s when we make our move.

      Just because Nicola appears to be trapped or clueless or hesitant does not mean that she is. Far from it IMO. Nicola knows that the British establishment is desperate to know when and how she is going to move – it would be silly to broadcast this before the event. Nicola is keep her cards very close and that is what is really scaring the britnats. If they think they can scare us off with their threats of Catalan style nonsense, then let them try. Why interrupt them- they are only fooling themselves – dangerous!

      IMO, NS will move when the time is right, and when she does, no quarter will be given. They won’t know what hit em. 🙂

    116. Proud Cybernat says:

      NEVER EVER EVER TRUST A TORY!!

      (Blue or Red)

      This can’t ever be said enough. Self-serving bastirts the lot of them.

    117. Iain 2 says:

      I don’t think that rejoining the EU will be to much of a problem.
      With the biggest oil reserves in Europe, most of the fish, and the largest renewable energy resources in Europe we are sure to be readmitted.
      And the rightwing troublemakers south of our country will not be missed in the European parliament.

    118. Mark Russell says:

      It would be more principled for the SNP MPs to simply abstain. To vote for Brexit in any form then request a S30 for a new independence referendum, would be extremely hypocritical and could only damage the argument and prospect for independence. Agree with everything you wrote – it is indeed undemocratic for SNP MPs to thwart the will of the majority in the UK. Respect the views of the English and Welsh then make the case for a new direction.

    119. Proud Cybernat says:

      Clearly you’d need to make sure it was watertight, perhaps by holding the indyref first.

      Which, should Scotland stupidly vote NO a second time, then we keep our MPs at WM and tell Treeza-babes we’ve changed our mind, we’re no’ supporting here WA after all.

      Bet she’d love the thought of that!

    120. Artyhetty says:

      The Britnats have certainly got folks arguing amongst themselves haven’t they. They must be laughing into their champagne flutes paid for off the backs of the people of Scotland, as we all wonder what the hell is the best course of action for Scotland.

      Supporting the Tories in any shape or form, goes against everything the SNP stands for imo.

      I have not one scoobie what is the best way forward for Scotland right now, but, we keep our eye on the prize.

      One thing, the Britnats, colonialists, do not play nice, they are scheming, lying, monied and powerful.

      Scotland is up against a monster. We need our friends in rEU to get behind us, some already are. I am sure many in the SNP have the measure of things, including Nicola Sturgeon.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      @Luigi
      I’m just a punter and I don’t post every opinion, just in case it tips off the “enemy”. I daresay others are the same.

      @Iain 2
      Kirsty Hughes doesn’t think it’ll be a problem either, though I’d say she’s actually being over-cautious with the timeframes. I think it could be rushed, considering Scotland’s current position of potentially unwilling entrapment.

      https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17600349.scottish-independence-how-and-when-scotland-culd-rejoin-the-eu

    122. Breastplate says:

      I agree with Rev and a good few of the other comments about what happens after Brexit.
      Once the U.K. has made its bed it will have to lie in it, all the wagons will be circled and the media will tell us all that Brexit is the best decision we have all made.
      We will be fed shite and told it’s chocolate and the worst thing is that most people will believe it.

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      I appreciate the FM had a moral responsibility to attempt to prevent Brexit from within Britain, but that time is past. IMHO, the FM is cutting things awfy close, as Scotland may find itself outside the EU and at the tender mercies of Westminster and the Lords cobbling together a new British constitution, aimed at preventing further indy referendum.

      Contemporary British nationalism has morphed into authoritarian English nationalism. It is the very essence of fascism, for one nation to infringe on the legal identity of another, especially when both are bound under the Treaties of Union. Time Scotland moved on, Brexit will cause irreparable harm to unborn generations.

      Kissing Cousins: Nationalism and Realism
      http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/kissingcousins.pdf

    124. Craig P says:

      There is a difference between now and 2014. The perceived wisdom peddled in the media has changed.

      Back then it was ‘we subsidise you, you’d be stupid to leave.’ This was so embedded that no amount of argument could change that view. Somebody could appear to accept your argument on Scotland’s potential and then be back the next day parroting the same belief.

      Today it is ‘we’re idiots, you’d be crazy not to leave.’ There’s an underwater earthquake of English exceptionalism that is only just starting to become apparent and these people are running screaming from the beach to warn us away from it. The ‘we subsidise the jocks’ brigade are fighting an unsuccessful rearguard action against this new narrative.

      No voting relatives and colleagues say to me ‘leaving the union will be even worse than leaving the EU’ but you can’t see it in their eyes. The same conviction they had in 2014 has gone. It’s a politically convenient position, not a deeply-held belief. That’s because it is a message that has not had decades of repetition to burrow into their brains, and now there are just too many English voices in the media telling them the dumb thing is to stick with the UK.

      A *big* difference in the mood music. People pick up on this more than they do any individual stories in the media.

    125. June Maxwell says:

      Hmm. Now we’re knocking back opportunities and taking no risks
      Perfect recipe for failure. Sounds like we’re still in steady as she goes mode that will eventually flounder on the rock of timidity unless some unforeseen event upends everything. We desperately need original thinking, boldness and probably a hero to save us now. Cant see any of those on the horizon.

    126. Abulhaq says:

      Macron’s France, his rather peculiar idea of France, his European ‘vision’ and the influence of self-serving ‘globalism’.
      https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/01/macron_and_the_fall_of_france.html
      Why we ought not to be reticent about being culturally nationalist.
      Vive l’Europe libre! Vive l’Europe des nations libres!

    127. Undeadshuan says:

      Rev have the security services got to you with articles you have published recently?

      The 77th brigade would be proud of these, your doing their work for them.

    128. CameronB Brodie says:

      One in support of embodied sovereignty.

      Sovereignty: Between Embodiment and
      Detranscendentalization

      Let me begin with a brief reflection on each of the four key concepts in the title for this symposium that should help air some of the important assumptions about the connection between internal and external notions of sovereignty. After an introductory reflection, I ground discussions of sovereignty in terms of the Enlightenment philosophical origins of notions of sovereignty and especially the role of two seminal European thinkers who are often identified as having a major impact on notions of state sovereignty for the
      modern period: Jean Bodin and Thomas Hobbes.

      I will trace the manner in which early modern sovereignty discourse oscillated between processes of embodiment and detranscendentalization-and to a certain degree, sovereignty theory needs to continue to attend to both aspects of this dynamic. I will conclude by placing Bodinian and Hobbesian notions of sovereignty alongside the contribution of important twentieth-century political thinkers. While this roster of thinkers might suggest that my focus is exclusively internal to Europeanist sovereignty discourse, my goal is to contextualize these important notions in relation to the larger global context where they are challenged in relation to cultural, political, and religious concerns.

      Ultimately, I also want to complicate the naturalization of notions of internal and external sovereignty. Such notions equate ideas of the state with territorial jurisdiction, defensible borders, and the vitalist embodiment of sovereigns as super-subjects—“Mortall Gods” as Hobbes referred to them. While such notions are crucial for sovereignty theory and the early modern and Enlightenment context in which it was elaborated, these notions also need to be deconstructed (a process which I describe more precisely as detranscendentalization). Detranscendentalization could demonstrate the constructed and constructive nature of an antifoundationalist human rights discourse.

      https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f4c9/90273825400bbdf2701a913f5a639f524a50.pdf

    129. Jim McIntosh says:

      I’ve said all along that this Brexit is England’s problem. Scotland has made up her mind and it’s obvious from polls/surveys since it hasn’t changed.

      We have to make a choice, do we want independence, or do we accept we’re staying part of the UK and fight to keep it in Europe. We really can’t do both at the same time, if we’re staying fair enough, but if we’re leaving, potentially swinging the vote and keeping England in the EU against her will is exactly what we complain about.

      I for one will be spoiling any vote on Brexit and hope others do the same, imagine if there was a million spoilt votes from Scotland, it would actually show that Scotland recognises this is an English issue as we won’t be staying for the consequences.

    130. twathater says:

      Eric McLean 4.00pm A great post and needed said , as you said WE all know that our country and people could and will survive and prosper outwith the uk, but as Stu and others have said if we are pulled out of the EU without our independence we will be fcucked , the cowards and reticents will be toooo scared to even contemplate even more upset.

      It will be ( not just now let’s wait until it has all settled down and see what our maisters are going to do ) or ( we can’t do it alone , we need to pool and share with the bigger country , or we are stronger together , any excuse will be used to delay or defer a vote

      I agree with Stu , RL , Breeks , every avenue should be explored , utilised and done just now , even the constitutional appeal to the SC and the ECJ we cannot allow wastemonster to drive our bus

      I have faith that NS wants indy but as others have said and I have said previously , NS was elected in Scotland by Scots to look after and PROTECT Scotland , not to protect the English and Welsh from their own stupidity

      You only have to look at most of the btl comments in the msm and BBC to see that the brexshiteers have taken over the running of the asylum , even lots of the remainers just want it to be done , Nicola is wasting her and our time

    131. Gary45% says:

      Jamie@2.33
      Civil disobedience will not work, we all know the MSM will be ready for total “gutter press” overload, and we will have to battle that on all fronts. Disobedience will only give them fuel for their gullible followers.
      Calm heads and smiles when under attack, it riles them up even more, make the enemy “drop the mic”, and the “floating mibees aye, mibees naw voters” will choose the side of least aggression.
      Maybe I am just a delusional old hippy??

    132. Legerwood says:

      schrodingers cat @ 4:16 pm

      Yes there is time but even if there is not I think the period when iScotland is technically out of the EU will be very short.

      Given the goodwill that the SG has assiduously cultivated over the last few years within the EU through its networking and contacts at ministerial level then the EU is likely to put forward a transition arrangement to tide us over to full membership.

      An iScotland would be in the unique position of being fully compliant with all the criteria and conditions for entry therefore the EU granting such a transition arrangement would not be creating a precedent that would apply to other applicants.

    133. Cod says:

      Two points:

      1. Brexit is going to happen in one form or the other. It has to, or else Conservative and Labour Leave voters in England will simply switch their votes to another party, and quite possibly in big enough numbers to prevent either party forming a new government by themselves for a long time – or, even worse, giving Farage and his ilk a run at some actual power.

      Neither party wants to commit suicide and regardless of their internecine wars over the ideology behind Brexit, they both, but the Conservatives in particular, know that their supporters simply will not countenance not leaving Europe now that they have their chance, and those supporters really don’t give a damn about thinking past “foreigners out, stop the EU jackboots making our laws and taking our money” type nonsense.

      Maybe, given that, offering a deal such as that proposed by Stu is a canny move. But, there is a good chance of it backfiring, as it would absolutely be portrayed by everyone else as SNP hypocrisy: “The SNP said they were dead set against Brexit, but voted for a deal on it anyway”. During any subsequent independence referendum this would be on 24/7 repeat. Maybe the feeling that this sort of pounding on the SNP would have no real effect is correct, but I’mn ot convinced.

      2. The bigger problem for me, is that for all the talk of holding IndyRef 2 now, or later, there is one problem: there is no evidence that we have enough votes to carry the vote, anymore than we did the day after IndyRef 1. Some people have switched position over Brexit, and some Yes Leavers might switch again dependent on the outcome of the whole Brexit farce, and the possible effects of such a course, but right now that’s just guesswork. Maybe someone could ask the question in a poll of Yes Leavers. Of course, then the question of whether No voters who switched to Yes over the last four years would stay Yes in the event of an actual vote would also need to be asked – and that’s without wading into the sub camps of No/Leave and No/Remain voters.

      Until that point, we can only go on the data we have. That comes from polls, and, as I pointed out the other day, it hasn’t really changed much in the last four and a bit years, and it says we don’t have the votes at this point. The simple fact is we have to convince more people.

      As much as people here on Wings, and in other independence supporting locations, are frustrated over the lack of progress, and wish for independence, there are as many, and then some more, who are on the opposite side. And until we can show that those people can be convinced, even in the relatively small numbers required to shift that 45% to 50.1% I would argue that there is very little chance of the SNP being offered anything by anyone in exchange for their support.

    134. Hamish100 says:

      Non-,SNP members demand policy changes.

      Yes they don’t join the snp to help mould or change policies.

      So they sing in the wind or support the enemy of Toryism

      No requirement to to join of course but is frustrating to see so many do the work of the Tories.

      I am on record wanting a referendum come August September. I don’t have all the facts or all the polling data.

      Whenever there is referendum called I will be there fighting for this country as I am sure the majority on here will also. We must win however.

    135. North chiel says:

      “ Luigi @0436 pm “ . Good perspective post Luigi. Don’t underestimate our FM , I am quite sure when she “ engages” that all scenarios will have been covered. She won’t let Scotland down .

    136. solarflare says:

      “If the SNP were to vote for Theresa May’s deal in exchange for a second indyref they’d be doing the rest of the UK a service by preventing a no-deal Brexit, which would be enormously worse then even her scabby and battered deal.”

      I absolutely agree with the principle and I’m somewhat amazed there wasn’t more talk about May doing that sort of deal when trying to muster up the votes for any one of the many meaningful votes she has had, seeing as she was prepared to bribe just about anyone else with something or other if she thought it might help.

      The thing is though applying rational logic to May doesn’t work. Nothing she does any more actually makes any sense because, having finally realised that none of her options are any good, she simply refuses to choose any of them at all – not even the least worst – and so the whole charade just sits there going nowhere and noone else has done enough to shift the matter in any substantial way.

      In a way it would make sense for her as she could legitimately kick the independence can a little way down the road in exchange for getting the Brexit thing finally through, and at least pretend from the polls at present to be relatively confident that they could campaign again for a successful No vote. Then it wouldn’t mean another Brexit referendum, another GE, doing a deal with Labour for a Brexit her party doesn’t want, etc.

      The problem is May has become the very personification of the Brexit logjam. I’d be amazed if she can decide whether to have butter or jam on her toast these days without days of agonising over it.

    137. Everybody should read the 25 articles of the Treaty of Union.
      This treaty would never stand up in any EU or UN court. It mainly deals with Scotland taking over part of ENGLANDS national debt and raising taxes to pay for it. Bribery and corruption as over £370,000 were given to them who signed it to make up for the reduction in the value of the coin of Scotland.

      May will grant a 30 section order because she knows Scotland can repeal the Treaty if it so wishes.

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just so folk don’t think me an arse for sling emotive phrases about, like “moral obligation”. The first duty of a responsible government is “to do no harm”. As such, HMG should be under criminal investigation of its’ disregard for public duty, in bringing us austerity and the full-English Brexit.

      CSR Rule #1: Do No Harm
      https://ssir.org/articles/entry/csr_rule_1_do_no_harm

    139. jfngw says:

      The other fly in the ointment is that even if the SNP supported May it is unlikely to get it through since it would be likely the Tories in Scotland would then vote against it. The deal was last defeated by 58, in theory this is enough but it isn’t if the Scot Tories vote against it (only 44 under this scenario).

      There is practically no chance of May going for this and splitting the Scots Tories away from the party.

    140. starlaw says:

      Hamish 100 6;23

      September would be the ideal date, its clear of the holiday months and good chance of fair weather.

    141. Breeks says:

      What a bizarre Channel 4 interview with the FM.

      All the usual BritNat agenda, hostile questioning, we’ve come to expect, but some images which appeared to be taken from a camera sat on the floor. Just bizarre.

    142. Fireproofjim says:

      If we have another General election, which seems likely, then the SNP should campaign on a single policy. – An Independent Scotland in the E.U.
      If we win and increase our Westminster MPs to 50+, as seems likely, then we withdraw from the House of Commons and negotiate an agreement with the largest English party. If they ignore us we start acting like an independent country. The UN and E.U. are almost certain to recognise Scotland under these conditions.
      Anyway it’s worth a try.

    143. jfngw says:

      @William Purves

      It is the early example of Quantative Easing, the debts of the Scottish privileged few were transferred to debts of the people. I need to find if James Brown’s (the godfather of debt) had any ancestors around then.

    144. Gary says:

      You’d have a point if, in exchange for support on BREXIT we got independence, not just a vote on it.

      Imagine getting IndyRef2 only to LOSE in such circumstances because the vote was preconditioned in some way, as in 79. THEN what???

    145. stewartb says:

      C4 News tonight had an interview with the FM and spent much of the time on the currency, including supposed obligations with respect to an indy Scotland using the Euro if in the EU.

      Despite in the interview this issue being clearly dealt with by the FM – in terms, no prospect of an indy Scotland being forced to join the Euro – in his closing summary the C4 interviewer chose to return to this issue. He was clearly wanting to leave the impression with the viewer at the close that, despite what the FM had explained, the Euro issue remained unresolved and so problematic for the indy case.

      This should act as a warning to the FM and her senior team – if one is needed – as they engage the MSM on the case for independence.Sign of things to come.

    146. Dan says:

      I was looking through my saved links to forward on to someone and found this post by mr thms (with further discussion in the following comments) from last November.
      Relates to Article 50, 49 and 48.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/serving-the-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-2408091

    147. Terry callachan says:

      Wings is absolutely correct on this .
      Forget what Nicola sturgeon wants
      It’s what the members of the SNP want that is important
      The SNP should support Mays brexit plan with or without Nicola sturgeon with her holyrood leader hat on

      It’s not the Scottish government that we need to support Mays brexit plan because that would mean the SNP tories labour and greens supporting Theresa mays brexit plan because they are after all part of the Scottish government

      We only need the SNP to support Mays brexit plan and we can cut a deal to do so in exchange for Westminster’s agreement to cooperate with a Scottish independence referendum

      Nicola sturgeon representing all the people of Scotland is a Nicola sturgeon thing
      It’s not an SNP thing

      The SNP do not represent all the people of Scotland and never will
      Not everyone in Scotland wants to be represented by the the SNP that’s why they don’t vote for them so let’s stop this kidding on that Nicola sturgeon the great statesperson represents everyone in Scotland she doesn’t.

      Nicola sturgeon is good and if she chooses not to agree with the SNP Westminster group voting with Theresa May to get her brexit plan through ,in exchange for cooperation and agreement to another Scottish independence referendum that’s up to her, it matters not to all of us who want Scottish independence now and know this is the best opportunity we will ever have to get it.

    148. Habib Steele says:

      In her speech Nicola said, “To those who believe independence is not the right change, I say bring forward your own proposals”. This is an invitation to the Unionists to make more false promises and tell more lies.

      The most the Unionists will propose is some kind of Federalism or Devo-max. It looks to me as the SNP has abandoned Independence for their kind of Federalism or Devo-Max. Of course they would honour such promises in the way they did their promises in 2014.

      It seems to me the only way to gain Independence is for the Scottish MPs to withdraw from the English parliament of the UK, join with the Scottish Parliament and resile the Treaty of Union and revoke the Act of Union. Former Ambassador Craig Murray, advocates this, demonstrates that it is legal under International Law, and tells how to do it. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/

      The Unionist PMs will not withdraw from the English parliament, but the majority of Scottish MPs, being SNP, will withdraw if that becomes the policy of the Party.

    149. Petra says:

      I can just imagine how such a scenario would play out. The SNP and T May come to an agreement – support my Brexit deal (MAYBE in the CU but not in the SM) in return for a Section 30 Order.

      The SNP support her and her deal gets passed. The MSM makes a meal of this in numerous ways, such as – SNP hand in hand with the Tories, SNP sell out the majority of Scots, Scots blamed for Brexit, etc, etc. The Scottish Remainers are enraged, as would be their ilk elsewhere (however not our problem). Scots in general, Remainers, Leavers and the non-politically minded, now see the SNP as being double-dealing hypocrites and support for them plummets.

      The SNP decide to hold their IndyRef2. In the lead up to that the MSM would point out that as the SNP MP’s supported it, plus Scottish Tory MP’s, it won’t be too bad for Scotland at all. It must be okay in fact. More than anything how on earth can Nicola Sturgeon stand up and use Brexit, with its many negative implications / repercussions, as a reason now for bailing out of the Union? If a deal such as this was done we could say bye-bye to our Independence for decades to come. We would lose IndyRef2. The SNP MSP’s would lose the 2021 Election (Brexit hypocrites / lousy day job politicians) and I reckon that the party would be decimated for all time coming. Westminster would have learned its lesson and if either Davidson or Leonard (or future equivalents) ended up ruling the roost in Scotland Westminster would support them by upping their sweetie money to get pot-holes etc filled in. Look see how good the Unionists in Scotland are at getting on with the day job. Didn’t we tell you that the SNP were untrustworthy, inept, wee charlatans.

    150. carjamtic says:

      Private Land – Trespassers Will be Prosecuted

      There is literally No Access for Scotland’s people with regards to anything political re: Brexit, Scottish Independence or indeed the Media it seems.

      Can’t you lot read, don’t you understand ,Westminster has told you often enough.

      You are Aliens, Trespassers, You don’t belong here, Your vision is not our vision, We can hurt you anytime we like and get away with it (Carmichael,Dugdale,I mean he/she wisnae even wearing a fur coat).

      A choice needs to be made because standing in the middle of the road is not a good place to be, over time, it drains your potency.

      Let’s hold our noses and at least try to fukc the unfukcables, before the fukcers fukc us (not literally) surely that is better than just waiting to get run over.

      The usual Ham actors will squeal, of course they will , WoS is bringing the game into disrepute, Sturgeon doesn’t speak for Scotland blah, blah,blah….

      The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows us access to private land, so we are not (legally) trespassing merely going from A to B, let’s ignore the No Trespassing signs and get where we need to be.

      #LegalAidOrLemonade

    151. Thepnr says:

      That’s the last few articles now you’ve had that are having a go at the SNP. I can’t really understand why and I’m sure you have your reasons.

      I’ve decided though that I’ve had enough negativity on this site and I certainly didn’t expect it from you Rev.

      So that’ll be me then for now and I’ll see those of us that are steadfast on the other side of a victory for those that continue to support Independence.

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      The concept of ‘Governmental social responsibility’ is not radical, it has just been framed as such since Thatcher.

      Political Responsibility in the Construction of the Public Realm: Reflections Based on Hannah Arendt
      http://www.hannaharendt.net/index.php/han/article/view/148/262

    153. Petra says:

      @stewartb at 7:36pm …. “Ch4 interview with Nicola Sturgeon.”

      You can see from that interview what the next MSM propaganda mantra in relation to currency is going to be and that is:-

      “An Independent Scotland will have to commit to the Euro.”

      Nicola Sturgeon was on the ball as usual, such as by stating that the £ was Scottish too (twice over and to his surprise, imo) and that an Independent Scotland wouldn’t have to use the Euro and gave examples of EU countries that don’t. The interviewer went further by naming additional countries that didn’t use the Euro either, but said that it was EU policy that they had to “commit” to using it. Nicola pointed out that commit or not the EU wasn’t forcing countries to adopt it. When the interview ended (and Nicola was off-screen) he addressed his colleague in the studio by basically saying that currency was going to be a big issue for an IndyRef2, as it was in 2014, and that Nicola hadn’t answered his questions on the currency at all (or words to that effect) when she had just done so. Totally blatant and just wait for them confusing the issue and duping the unenlightened with the “have to commit to” term.

    154. handclapping says:

      The SNP has been floundering ever since it decided that a referendum was the Holy Grail. The SNP is a political party established to win a majority for independence at Westminster. If they hadn’t dabbled in referenda we would be free under Maggie T’s jibe ‘win a majority at Westminster’ which they have done.

      Problem now is that the Yes movement needed to win a referendum is bigger than the SNP but the Yes movement cannot win without the SNP.

      Referenda suck.

    155. Terry callachan says:

      Petra…
      People have already made ups their mind about Scottish independence if brexit goes ahead.
      The media would not be able to change very many minds no matter what they say.

      The fact is England wants brexit and it wants to retain control of Scotland it wants both

      Nicola Sturgeons plan is playing right into their hands because once brexit happens there will be less chance of England’s Westminster cooperating with a Scottish independence referendum than there is now

      And if brexit doesn’t happen England’s Westminster will continue to refuse to agree to a Scottish independence referendum as they are right now

      Nicola sturgeon is playing it safe for her SNP holyrood group by supporting another brexit referendum on the grounds that Scotland voted to remain !! Just think about that, she ought to be saying we don’t need another brexit referendum because we already voted to remain but she clearly thinks that there is a chance of keeping the whole of the UK in the EU

      What then ?
      Do we continue to ask England permission to hold a Scottish independence referendum ?

      Knowing that all those people in Scotland who were going to vote for Scottish independence and give us a clear majority because of brexit will now vote against Scottish independence because Nicola sturgeon saved the day and kept us all in the EU, even England and Wales who voted a majority to leave .

      What she is doing is wrong
      What she is doing is giving priority to her relationship with Westminster over her mandate of going for Scottish independence

      I think Nicola sturgeon is great and done a lot of good things
      But in this regard I think she has gone power crazy craving all the attention that goes with
      the London circle of political discussion

      I hope the Westminster group of SNP vote for Theresa mays deal and brexit goes through and Scotland takes the golden opportunity to declare Scottish independence following a resounding victory in a Scottish independence referendum

      Nicola Sturgeon can claim that she did all she could on behalf of the Scottish parliament at holyrood to avoid brexit but whilst wearing her other hat as the leader of the SNP she had to agree with the SNP Westminster groups actions because it secures Scottish independence honouring the mandate she was given by SNP members

    156. Cubby says:

      The only deal that should be done for the SNP to vote to leave the European Union is the one that involves the Treaty of Union 1706/7 being terminated and the end of the UK. Scotland goes its own way. England goes its own way.

    157. Douglas says:

      Interview on channel 4 news with Nicola, with what seemed a full on “what currency will Scotland use” and “Scotland will have to use the Euro if staying in the EU” mode. Nicola while debuking the Euro case still seemed shakey on the currency use. SNP really need to act more confidently and rebuke the nonsense spouted by the MSM.If not, I fear people will lose confidence in the success of any forthcoming indyref

    158. geeo says:

      @handclapping.

      A lot of people reference that thatcher quote as if it carries the slightest weight, legally.

      It doesn’t.

      She was MOCKING Scots who supported indy and the only party interested in Indy.

      She was mocking the lack of political support for indy.

      Not only did she not mean it, she had ZERO authority to deliver on it.

      We won 56/59 seats in 2015 but barely scraped 50% of the vote, if you think 30 seats (a majority) on less than 40% of the vote, never mind 50% plus one, is a sovereign mandate from the Sovereign Scots people, and somehow equates to calling indy won, then bad news, you have not been paying attention.

      Our Sovereignty hinders as much as helps us.

      If we were not sovereign, we would not need a majority of the people for indy which opens up other ways.

      It cuts both ways.

    159. Petra says:

      Not you too, Thepnr (8:26pm)? No sign of Dr Jim either plus a multitude of other brilliant pro-Independence posters who seem to have done a runner. The Unionists must be cracking open their champagne bottles. Rubbing their hands in glee.

      What on earth is going on? Whatever the case please don’t go, as it looks as though that’s the name of the game on here now. Don’t let them win, especially when we are close to getting our Independence. As decent posters leave the site, one after another, many pretendy wee pro-Independence supporters, time wasters, tr*lls and a resident disc jockey have taken over. Sad to say the least. This site is influential as you know, so I’m asking, a call to arms, all genuine Independence supporters to get on here to support the cause.

    160. Alisdair says:

      I posted this on my facebook. I hope I’m right:
      Weel, weel, just seen twitter footage of Nicola Sturgeon being interviewed by an STV Britnat none-entity ‘…and I don’t think a UK Government could or will be able to stand in the way of the Scottish people expressing its will’ Now I don’t know what’s in her head (how could I?), however, my best guess would be we’re off to the UN and the rights of self determination. YEEEEEEEEEEEEE FUCKING HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Game on!

    161. geeo says:

      Petra@9.07pm

      2 recent topic posts have invited a flood of posters of the type you mention, not great look.

    162. Cubby says:

      It’s getting close to the time when we will find out if we are being led by modern day Bruces or a bunch of Charlies. Some posters on here have already decided that it is a bunch of Charlies. I say it is too early to decide.

    163. Cubby says:

      thepnr and Dr Jim – I never took either of you to be quitters.

    164. RobertTheTruth says:

      @Petra 9.07 pm

      Who decides who is a genuine Independence supporter? Is there a vetting committee?

    165. stewartb says:

      Petra @ 9:07 pm

      Agreed! I suspect there are important lessons historically from the left of politics involving schism and consequent failure to achieve.

      The SG, FM, SNP and other pro-indy groups and individuals all do face DILEMMAS over how to achieve our independence (in the strict meaning of the term DILEMMA – problem offering two or more possible routes to solutions, none of which are unambiguously acceptable or preferable.)

      Yes we can and should all offer our views – hopefully always respectfully and constructively – but preferably with a basic acknowledgement of the FACT of such actual DILEMMAS and of the burden on certain individuals with leadership responsibilities to make hard choices with potentially huge consequences.

    166. Kenny says:

      O/T
      Did a Survation poll this afternoon. First time I have been honoured.
      ALL about past and future voting intentions.
      Did I vote in out ref., how did I vote. Council elections, same again. EU ref. May’s GE. Would I want a 2nd EU ref. How would I vote. Do I want another Indyref. How did I rate the political party leaders.

      Anyone notice the little piece on p17 of the Metro today, down at the bottom.
      Headed Cyber security “Tested in Scotland”
      The chief executive of the National Cyber Security Centre has revealed that Scotland is often used as a training ground for potential issues. Speaking at the CyberUK Conference Cieran Martin said: What I’m impressed about is the way Scottish society , public and private sector, mobilises itself in the various resilience forms.
      FRANKLY, SOMETIMES WE TRY THINGS OUT IN SCOTLAND.
      Yea, I fucking bet you do.

    167. boris says:

      The 10 year period of austerity (2008-2018) heralded as a great triumph for British democracy, by New Labour and the Tory’s resulted in an unprecedented number of individuals having their benefit entitlement reviewed and brutally stopped resulting in them being forced to rely on charity to survive.

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/04/26/the-maladroit-performance-of-the-unionist-politicians-in-scotland-is-disgraceful-scots-should-reject-them/

    168. CameronB Brodie says:

      Given one of the ‘benefits’ of Brexit will be the loosening of bureaucratic regulations and further privatisation of the welfare-state, it is difficult to comprehend the conduct of academics attached to Scotland in Union. I reckon they must be seriously fucked-up individuals. frankly.

      #WorldMurdoDay

      P.S. Does anyone know if the Church of Scotland is still wedded to (white) British nationalism?

      Public Policy for Corporate Social Responsibility
      E-Conference Proceedings
      Week I. The range of roles that governments play in providing an “enabling environment” for CSR

      CSR covers a wide range of issues relating to business conduct, from corporate governance and environmental protection, to issues of social inclusion, human rights and national economic development. In the case of private sector investment in low and low-middle income countries, the emphasis placed on each of these issues can vary, and sometimes differs from the priorities of investors and businesses in more developed markets.

      The role of the public sector in CSR is complex and is an emerging field. As the term “CSR” has not yet taken hold in many public sector agencies, many of their interventions have not been undertaken explicitly as CSR initiatives, but nevertheless could be seen as part of the agenda. There is therefore a wealth of relevant experience among public sector agencies that is currently being overlooked. The following table categorizes possible government interventions regarding CSR.

      web.worldbank.org/archive/website01006/WEB/IMAGES/PUBLICPO.PDF

    169. Ken500 says:

      Brexit would ruin the Scottish economy. Why should any political campaign for a policy that would ruin the economy. Except unionists parties ruining it ALL the time since 1928 and before. Malicious self serving lies to line their and their associates pockets. Malicious lying manifestos that are never honoured. Lie after lie.

      The SNP are better than that. 62%+ of Scottish voters voted to Remain. The SNP are honouring that pledge to try and Remain. Or cause less damage as possible. ETA etc.

      When another IndyRef is being campaigned for and will be delivered and coming soon. Demographically. Why be pushed before the jump into campaigning. A S30 can be applied through the Court’s and will be achieved because of the totally undemocratically way Scotland has been treated consistently. Against International Law. Recognised in all the Courts.

      The Tory/Westminster unionist Gov will collapse soon. That is obvious. A total disgrace of mismanagement as usual. Brexit catastrophe. A Tory unionist absolute disaster. Imbeciles. Just wait till the Council elections 3rd May. EU elections 23 May? They will be squealing like pigs. Or rats in a sack. Not purring like cats. The cats that lost the cream. Skirling.

    170. Bob Mack says:

      Surely we all recognise two things. The SNP are afraid of failing again, and oddly enough seem to agree that a generation as defined by Ms Davidson is 7 years ,given they are talking about 2021 as a possible future referendum date. Seven years since 2014.

      In order to be certain of victory,they are overlooking this golden opportunity which may never come again , and I mean by that the chaos within the Establishment who will eventually regroup.

    171. Ken500 says:

      Any Referendum will be decided by the 25%+ that never vote. Polling does not work. It does not Poll those who never vote. They are off the radar. Out of the reach of Polls. They Poll those who are interested. Regular non voters are usually not.

    172. CameronB Brodie says:

      For “bureaucratic regulations” read health and safety standards.

    173. Ken500 says:

      ‘Once Brexit hapoens’. Brexit will never happen. There will be elections the Tories will be out big fail. A convenient back track. Someone else will have to clear up the mess, as usual. It happens all the time. Scotland can grab the opportunity at any time. Patience is a virtue.

      Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Get someone to vote too. Do not be defeatist. Vote for Independence. It will happen.Don’t vote – it won’t.

      Even Murdo Fraser etc believe in Independence and will vote for it. Twa faced Tories in the secrecy of the ballot box.

    174. Glamaig says:

      This is the third article recently I have completely disagreed with.

      My random thoughts –

      The SNP have been consistent on Brexit.

      first choice – UK remains in EU

      second choice – UK remains in Single Market and CU – this is the only option they voted for in the Commons

      failing either of these, Scotlands interests are severely damaged and they will call indyref2

      Independence is much easier if our nearest neighbour remains at least in the single market

      In fact the ideal conditions may be the scenario where the whole UK is outside the EU but in the single market – because there would be minimum disruption to our trade but the EU would not have UKs back as it would not be a member state.

      Having indyref2 is not a goal in itself – winning it is

      If the SNP enabled Brexit they would get a hammering and quite rightly so as 62% of Scotland voted remain

      Peoples opinions do not change overnight, they soften over time, and the SNP are not messaging us – they are messaging the No/Remainers who are the prime place our new Yes votes are going to come from

      By the time 55%-60% are ready to vote Yes, 30% of us are going to be literally screaming with frustration. Thats the way it is. Harness that frustration and get out campaigning instead of having a go at other Yessers. Campaigning is now on. You dont need a referendum to campaign, SNP members were campaigning for independence for decades and that why we have come this far.

      The SNP may seem to be painfully political correct and right on – but they have to be or they will get hammered by very vocal people, apart from that its the right thing to do. Some of their stuff I have an initial negative emotion about because I grew up in a different era, but intellectually I know its the right thing to do. In any case none of that is really relevant to independence.

      The question of support for EURef2 is a difficult one. On the one hand its consistent with their stated aims and it might be seen as hypocritical to oppose it yet support indyref2. On the other hand its dangerous as it might be a precedent for a ‘confirmatory’ vote after independence. Probably it wont happen in which case we can safely be seen as having done the principled thing…

      I dont see how we can have indyref2 until the UK has actually left the EU or there could be a sudden about turn, another vow etc.

      Lastly I would be very happy if I never hear the phrase ‘the SNP should’ ever again uttered by people who arent even members

    175. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has ‘a right to roam’, not barriers, people can and do wander all over Scotland. Tourism is big. A national asset. The magnificent scenery. The best in the world, especially up North. Exceptional. Recognised worldwide. Scotland is half empty because of Westminster centrist policies. Total mismanagement. Appalling. The Scottish population has only gone up since Devolution 2000. Brexit would not be beneficial for Scotland.

    176. Robert Peffers says:

      For goodness sake. Nicola is far from being daft. There is purpose in insisting upon , “Getting Westminster’s permission”, and it sure as hell is not because Scotland requires it to hold a referendum.

      The SG, (not Nicola), requests Westminster’s permission and no matter who heads the United Kingdom Government, (not the English Government), when they do, refuses their permission then Holyrood takes the matter to the Scottish High Court who rule that Westminster is acting unconstitutionally.

      Westminster, takes it to the United Kingdom Supreme Court who rule in favour of the Westminster United Kingdom parliament and the Scottish Courts appeal it to the international courts. There has been a bit of form there already.

      Remember we are actually talking about a legally bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms but Westminster sees itself as sovereign over Scotland which it legally is not and that requesting of a Section 30 order takes the bipartite United Kingdom into constitutional conflict in the international courts.

      Wherein, at the end of the day, the UK has signed up to the human right that any recognisable group of people have the human right of self determination. Westminster is not legally the English parliament – it just believes it is.

    177. Ken500 says:

      More people who support Independence should join the SNP. Put their money where their mouth is. Lots of good folk do. Good focus. Camaraderie. The more the merrrier. Like minded people. Well organised.

    178. Ken500 says:

      Aye, aye Mr Peffers. Salute.

    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism is an unhealthy mindset, as it submits an individual’s agency as a sovereign human-being, to Westminster, and has brought Scotland to the point of Brexit despite Scotland voting against it. Under such circumstances, a rational resident of Scotland would have concern for their self-preservation and biological security under British nationalist government, if not the rights of future generations.

      What Is Self-Determination Theory?

      In psychology, self-determination is an important concept that refers to each person’s ability to make choices and exert control over their own life. This ability plays an important role in psychological health and well-being. Self-determination allows people to feel that they have control over their choices and lives.

      Self-determination theory suggests that people are motivated to grow and change by innate psychological needs. The theory identifies three key psychological needs that are believed to be both innate and universal:

      The need for competence
      The need for connectedness
      The need for autonomy

      The concept of intrinsic motivation, or engaging in activities for the inherent rewards of the behavior itself, plays an important role in self-determination theory….

      https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-self-determination-theory-2795387

    180. Eckle Fechan says:

      Cut a deal, with a tied-in guarantee on a ‘vow’ to honour a S30? What are they, the DUP? Fuck that.

      “For there’s no gods and there’s precious few heroes
      But there’s plenty on the dole in the Land o’ the Leal
      And it’s time now to sweep the future clear”

    181. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, as far as I’m concerned, Sturgeon still hasn’t made a mistake.

    182. Eckle Fechan says:

      “Of the lies of a past that we know was never real”

      [B. McNeil]

    183. Hamish100 says:

      with the negative vibes from the Rev against the SNP again could it be he is huffing over the Dugdale case and his belief the snp should have supported his unfortunate statements he
      made online although not homophobic?

      OT With the UK and the RoI having talks of NI Devolution are we seeing the start of bargaining to resolve the backstop?

    184. Colin Alexander says:

      The freedom movement regained the momentum for Scotland’s liberation in 2015. The Red and blue Tory Unionist machine was smashed: 56 out of 59 MPs SNP.

      The road to victory was open but Nicola Sturgeon put the brakes on. Full Stop!

      The SNP became the big players at Westminster. Started dancing to the British tune. Feeling important.

      Then reverse. The SNP shed votes like snaw off a dyke with their pro-Westminster 2017 GE campaign.

      With Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon embraced the WM merry-go-round. British People’s Vote. Sold out Scotland’s vote to Remain.

      The SNP went begging the House of Lords for favours. They got the contempt they deserved from the unelected vermin in ermine. Continuity Bill killed. Devolution democracy dead in Scotland. But the SNP keep the corpse breathing to pretend there’s life in devolution.

      The SNP became British Establishment politicians. The Ian Blackford and Joanne Cherry WM Brexit show.
      The SNP Save Britain.

      It’s time to teach the SNP a fundamental reminder: The one and only reason for the SNP is Scotland’s freedom.

      If the Sturgeon British Establishment SNP won’t listen. Destroy them at the ballot box just like we smashed Red Tory Labour.

      If the SNP won’t fight for Scotland’s freedom, vote for those who will.

    185. Terry callachan says:

      To glamaig…

      Sorry but you are totally wrong
      if Scotland leaves the EU as a result of Westminster voting for it with SNP voting for it too

      And a Scottish independence referendum is held that allows Scotland to rejoin the EU as an independent country

      There is no way on this earth that remainers in Scotland will say
      “ well I was gonna vote for Scottish independence but I’m not going to now because SNP helped brexit along”

      Their choice would be
      a) resigning themselves to permanent brexit under UK government
      OR
      b) being in the EU with Scotland as an independent country

      If being in EU is their priority (b) will be chosen
      If being in the UK is their priority (a) will be their choice

      Are you by any chance an (a) ?

      When it comes down to it Scottish independence in the eu OR brexit in the UK is your choice you have to choose which is most important to you

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Self-determination will be healthy for Scotland, as it will connect Scots to their government. A Government of Scotland, for Scotland, by Scotland. Brexit highlights Scotland’s democratic deficit and will damage Scotland’s public health. Scotland must not be dragged out of the EU.

      Self-determination theory and the facilitation of intrinsic motivation, social development, and well-being.

      Abstract

      Human beings can be proactive and engaged or, alternatively, passive and alienated, largely as a function of the social conditions in which they develop and function. Accordingly, research guided by self-determination theory has focused on the social–contextual conditions that facilitate versus forestall the natural processes of self-motivation and healthy psychological development. Specifically, factors have been examined that enhance versus undermine intrinsic motivation, self-regulation, and well-being.

      The findings have led to the postulate of three innate psychological needs—competence, autonomy, and relatedness—which when satisfied yield enhanced self-motivation and mental health and when thwarted lead to diminished motivation and well-being. Also considered is the significance of these psychological needs and processes within domains such as health care, education, work, sport, religion, and psychotherapy. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)

      https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-13324-007

    187. Ken500 says:

      Stalingrad and the Blitz lasted 6 years. Brexit will never happen by the Tories. Within five years they are out. Just wait for the subsequent elections. Three years or less left.

    188. stuart mctavish says:

      Good article.
      As far as I can see, in the absence of an alternative route to an S30 agreement, the only good reason (admittedly an excellent one) for any further delay to a second referendum, that would necessarily occur without an S30, is the not unreasonable desire to have Alex Salmond assisting with the festivities.

    189. Legerwood says:

      Hamish100 says:
      26 April, 2019 at 10:36 pm

      “”with the negative vibes from the Rev against the SNP again could it be he is huffing over the Dugdale case and his belief the snp should have supported his unfortunate statements he
      made online although not homophobic?”” YES

      “”OT With the UK and the RoI having talks of NI Devolution are we seeing the start of bargaining to resolve the backstop?”” YES

    190. Sharny Dubs says:

      Apologies for being somewhat the worse for ware, but something occurred.

      Section 30.
      I wiz in ae pub back in 14’, or wiz it 15’? canny mind, had a few pints and me and ma mate were considering the 3:30 at Haymarket. He saide, ah bet ye thoan number 31 willnae come within the top 3. We settled oan 15 tae wan…… Ah lost…. Bastrd’

      Onayhow…

      Come 2019 am in they pub an this Quine (Hackett bitch) a mate oh the mate I kent back in 14’ (or wiz it 13’? Haha) mine him? Well he frerked aff n never seen him again bawbag! well his mate, fa ave nivver seen afore, pitches in an sayers she wans the same odds ah hud we hur mate back then.

      Cors what can ye say, own yer bike!

      apologies to the horse racing folk, I know shit about the ponies

    191. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “FRANKLY, SOMETIMES WE TRY THINGS OUT IN SCOTLAND. Yea, I fucking bet you do.” You say @Kenny says at 9:32 pm

      Aye of course they do Kenny

      Remember The Poll Tax, Nuclear Power at Dounreay, Gruinard Island aka Anthrax Island, Project Fear via Social and Mainstream Media for example.

      All tested on/in Scotland 1st.

    192. Terry callachan says:

      To glamaig 1004hrs…

      It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote when we know that England and Wales voted in favour of brexit and we know a majority in UK voted for brexit

      It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote knowing that the people of Scotland have already made their choice by overwhelmingly voting to remain

      There is no need for a second brexit vote ,the first result has not been carried through to brexit

      I am a remainer but I respect England’s right to brexit and Wales too it’s what they voted for so they should get it

      Scotland voted to remain so we should get that too but in order to get it we will have to leave the UK so it is perfectly honourable to have Scottish independence referendum to see if leaving the UK is more or less important than staying in the EU

    193. Terry callachan says:

      To glamaig 1004hrs…

      It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote when we know that England and Wales voted in favour of brexit and we know a majority in UK voted for brexit

      It would be hypocritical if Scotland supports a second brexit vote knowing that the people of Scotland have already made their choice by overwhelmingly voting to remain

      There is no need for a second brexit vote ,the first result has not been carried through to brexit

      I am a remainer but I respect England’s right to brexit and Wales too it’s what they voted for so they should get it

      Scotland voted to remain so we should get that too but in order to get it we will have to leave the UK so it is perfectly honourable to have a Scottish independence referendum to see if leaving the UK is more or less important than staying in the EU

    194. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander

      Here is a bit of ad hom for you. You really are a boring barsteward.

    195. Terry callachan says:

      To glamaig …1004hrs

      How do you know who is a member of the SNP and who is not ?
      Do you just read what a person has posted and then declare that they are not a member of the SNP ?

    196. Robert Peffers says:

      You only need to read through Wings to find out the vast majority of the people of Scotland just cannot get the facts straight in their minds.

      How many times have I personally posted the fact that the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign KINGDOMS? It is not a country composed of four countries and Westminster is not legally the parliament of England. That factually there is no parliament of England and Westminster runs and funs England directly as the United Kingdom.

      You can bet your shirt that within a few comments someone will refer to Westminster as the English parliament or will speak of an rUnited Kingdom that Scotland will be leaving behind when, “Scotland leaves the Union”.

      I explain and quote references that the Pound Sterling is as much Scots currency as it is England’s and I site references. Then I explain that the Bank of England has never in its entire history belonged to the English Kingdom alone. It was a private company until THE UNITED KINGDOM nationalised it and it thus belongs to both partner kingdoms of the United Kingdom.

      Within a few comments someone will post that the pound belongs to England and on independence England and the Bank of England will control the Scottish economy if Scotland keeps the pound.

      The facts are plain – an independent Scotland would immediately begin to get the up to 98% oil & gas revenue that currently goes directly to Westminster and the Scottish economy is the only one in the entire United Kingdom that is a net exporter and that is without the oil & gas revenues.

      That means the rest of the present UK are all net importers and that is exactly what Gavin McCrone wrote in his report to the Westminster Government and it spooked them so badly they marked it top secret and buried it deep in a Westminster vault for decades. That began with the Tories but Labour did not reveal it to the public and even yet it is hard to search out a copy of the report.

      The report plainly states that if Scotland found out the facts it would lead to Scottish independence and if it did the Scottish oil & gas driven economy would become so hard against the English pound that it would become a problem for a Scottish Government – but nothing like the problem it would be for England. All a over hard currency needs to do, as seen by the Norwegian economy, is to buy in another poorer performing currency they don’t need and the job is done. Norway keeps buying Euros it doesn’t need.

      What McCrone was warning Westminster about was that all an oil & gas driven Scottish economy would need to do was to buy in English pounds to stabilise the Scottish pound and that would drive down the English pound and the lower it went the better for the Scottish pound.

      No doubt an over hard currency is not a good thing but it sure as hell is a great deal better than a weakening one and there is a cure for it but no cure for an ever weakening currency.

      Just what natural resources has England got that it can sell to the World? What can England manufacture that no one else can? England’s strongest assets, (besides Scotland0, was their financial services and they are bailing out of the UK at a high speed even before Brexit. Mainly to the Netherlands apparently.

      So there you go – independence would see Scotland soaring and England sinking and that is why the Britnats are holding on so firmly to Scotland. If it were not so we would have been independent centuries ago.

    197. Terry callachan says:

      Colin Alexander…1037…

      I think what you said is daft, telling people not to vote for snp and to vote for those who will fight for Scotland’s freedom !
      Come on , SNP is the only party that is fighting for Scotland’s freedom
      Some might think their way of doing it isn’t the best
      But surely you realise they are the only party to do it
      There is nobody else
      We have to support SNP and vote SNP in every election if we want Scottish independence no other political party will ever get it for you for sure

    198. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT from the Rev.’s twitter, re. the more affluent appearing to be more prone to peddling bullshit than the poor. This might have something to do with “right-mindedness”, or the belief that one is correct simply becomes one is economically successful. Just a hunch.

      #WorldMurdoDay

    199. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Terry Callachan.

      That right, aye?

    200. Terry callachan says:

      To Robert puffers…1104 hrs
      You regularly state these things but until it all plays out which it most certainly will, YOU cannot be sure that what was written back then was written with the intention and meaning that YOU take from it now.
      Scotland has already experienced this when written details of devolution were found to be bogus with no legally binding commitment required of Westminster so if I were you, fair enough hold your views and interpretations but remember that YOU may be incorrect, your interpretation may be incorrect and interpretation is everything in law.
      You should try and refrain from scolding people for their interpretation or lack of knowledge a pleasant post stating your own opinion is great but saying the great majority of people on wings just cannot get the facts straight in their minds is rather insulting

    201. Terry callachan says:

      To proud cybernat 1117…

      Was that a question ?

    202. Ghillie says:

      I’m glad that the party I have always supported, the SNP, have good principles and morals.

      Scotland voted overwhelming to remain in the European Union and so it would be morally corrupt to facilitate Brexit going through to further our desires at home.

      WE know, having done our homework, that all forms of Brexit will hurt ALL the people of the UK.

      And calling for a second vote on Brexit is the right thing to do.

      It IS respecting the voters in England and Wales where folk are now realising that they were lied to and bulldosed into the polling stations without adequate information to make an informed choice.

      Whatever way all of this goes, part of the electorate over the Border are already grateful to our SNP MPs and to Nicola Sturgeon for holding the UK Government’s feet to the fire when most of their own home grown parties failed so dismally.

      And part of the electorate over the Border will continue to despise all input by the Scots whether or not that scuppers their dreams of a full Britnat Brexit.

      On top of that, our First Minister has, today, said that even if Brexit is halted it is likely that our Independence Referendum will go ahead.

      That Scotland’s Independence Referendum will probably be held in the second half of next year 🙂

      The UK bridges have long since been well and truly burned.

    203. Proud Cybernat says:

      Was that a question ?

      If you were a Scot, you would know exactly what it was.

    204. James Barr Gardner says:

      SNP Conference starts tomorrow rather than beat up your laptop get along and let them know you are there and not in the least pleased with fobbing off the Mandate.

      The Anti-Fracking Folk will be there, Scottish CND will be there, will you be there ? Being a Yesser means you care.

      I get the impression of whats happening at the moment that is a bit like the householder who has had his home broken into going to court as a witness for good character for the burglar who robbed him. WTF !

      Dissolve the Union NOW ! Scotland is not there to sort out the ills of England, it’s their mess, the Irish Border Issue is not an Irish Problem it’s Westminster one they created it !

    205. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Where is the harm in asking?”

      None. Also absolutely no chance, though. Not one in a billion.

    206. Terry callachan says:

      To proud cybernat…1123hrs

      Haha , if I were a Scot
      Cat got your tongue ? Got something to say ? Say it ,no place for being a timorous wee beastie

    207. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You know what I get really tired of, people saying that once brexit happens, it will be so bad that the polls for indy will shift. I really don’t think that is correct…”

      Precisely.

    208. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “For as long as we continue pandering to the idea that Scotland is a subordinate in this union, we will be, deservedly, treated so.”

      Which is exactly what we’re doing by repeatedly meekly asking for a Section 30, being told to piss off, and doing nothing about it except asking meekly again.

    209. Terry callachan says:

      To James Barr Gardner…
      I’m going tomorrow.
      Staying at the hostel on the royal mile..bargain
      I’m worried that so many people are rankled by SNP lack of direct action
      The SNP should be loud and proud rattling the cages stating intentions biting back and we will follow
      They’re too soft for many people who have been at this for decades and feel it with their fingertips but can’t quite grasp it

    210. call me dave says:

      Here’s another first for Scotland which came within days of actually happening. Better together in the colony.

      http://archive.is/sYFZF

    211. Iain mhor says:

      Well, I’m ok with things. There is apparently a stated stance by the SNP of ‘no indyref without a section 30’ (though I haven’t read that explicitly myself)
      So, if that is the case, it stands as rank stupidity, politically, tactically, logically and wouldn’t fly even in the playground. That sort of play at the big skool would get you hammered at 5-card brag and you’d lose your house on your first game of poker when you left it. Therefore, it can’t be the play (can it?) Surely not.

      The best such a statement could be described is “Please don’t throw me into the briar patch” and so risibly stupid that everyone knows it’s a “briar patch play”
      Although… Maybe it is just rank stupidity – the state of politics nowadays nothing would surprise me.

      Anyway, let us make the mistake of assumption and assume the “S30 or nothing” is really all the SNP have. T.May could well dangle that carrot (or Labour or a jakey on the street) to have the SNP dance a wee S30 jig. The only way that can play is if there is a mutual, simultaneous, written agreement : “Brexit deal for S30” and that’s only a maybe – because what comes first? The Brexit deal vote, or the Indyref? Or is it to be wrapped up in an all encompassing vote somehow.

      If it’s not simultaneous or homogeneous – as soon as one party has achieved its goal, the deal can be reneged – the “Vow” if you like.
      “But it will be recognised as a binding agreement and international rescue (sorry) international thingmy, courts things will slap wrists and do a lot of tutting!”
      Aye… how long will that take? Will Scotland rise up en-mass and say “haw! That’s no the gemme, even though millions of us like that the Union wins again, its the principle of the thing – lets back Indy?” Ha! Aye right.

      So that’s a losing scenario.
      The only winning scenario is Scotland wanting Independence and by that I mean the majority. The only way is take time to convince them by letting the shit cards fall where they will; or you can hold a referendum, SGE or GE on that specific ticket. Yet the only way you can have a referendum (without the instakill S30 headshot) is to hold one and damn their eyes. If that isn’t a flier, then it’s elections or some damn clever play right out of left field.

      I’ll wait.

    212. msean says:

      This isn’t such a bad idea,brexit will happen anyway,so might as well make it easier for them.I’d also like international observers etc.

    213. Terry callachan says:

      Asking for a S30 ,what government ever had to ask another government for permission or their agreement to consult their population
      Now is not the time
      SNP should have responded to that with
      We will say when it is the time , not you

    214. Colin Alexander says:

      Terry callachan

      I said “if”. I am leaving the door open for the SNP to abandon the Westminster “Save Britain” WM love-in sessions and accept devolution and indyref2 are a dead end.

      There is still a chance for the SNP to re-embrace independence by plebiscite elections instead of their insidious obsession with administering colonial devolution.

    215. robertknight says:

      Some may see it as a ‘Hail Mary pass’, but I recon that the SNP agreeing to May’s deal in return for a Section 30 Order is something that ‘Yes’ should seriously consider embracing.

      What’s the alternative? Sit around waiting for events to unfold which are beyond our control and at the same time be at the mercy of the Tories until the polls show +50%? The speech by NS has simply left me more concerned about losing the mandate, unity and momentum as time marches on. Furthermore, it’s hypocritical to complain about E&W forcing Scotland to leave the EU, whilst simultaneously hoping that Scotland can in some way prevent E&W from leaving the same.

      A Section 30 Order should be considered as being connected legislation to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, so as to ensure any future PM/Westminster Govt. can’t renege on the deal.

      Fairest solution is to permit the Scottish Govt. to negotiate directly with the EU to establish for us the status of Successor Member State ‘in-waiting’, and present to Scotland the choice of the choice of:

      Remain in UK [_]

      Remain in EU [_]

    216. Liz g says:

      Ghillie @ 11.22
      I agree with you,but for totally different reasons ( I’m just no as nice as you 🙂 )
      The Revs proposal was interesting and worth, I think,putting out there. Mainly because it would shake the tree and see what falls out.That’s appealing for many reasons other than I’m just being a bitch….
      Anyhoo… Where I disagree with the Rev is in the position that we should leave England to implement what it voted for.
      We so shouldn’t….
      Not from duty .
      Not from a moral perspective.
      But rather because it’s in Scottish interests to stymie this Brexit,we are not forcing the people south of the border to take a course that is to their detriment,or not,…depending on their point of view…that would indeed be immoral…. But we can, and we should,like any other country… Take any and all positions that advances us.
      We have a position within this Union,and, while we are in it it’s all we have… Why on earth should we not use it as best we can to advance Scotland?
      Therefore,I agree that, it is in the interests of Scotland for the Territory that falls under the Westminster government other than Scotland, to stay in the EU, so..then that’s what Holyrood should be politicking for.
      Sill… No harm in debating what “” could be done “” though ,and looking at the fall out… Like I said Bitch 🙂

    217. Liz g says:

      Me @ 11.49
      Oh Ghillie…. just read that back…
      I mean that like I said I was being a bitch…
      NOT you!!!

    218. CmonIndy says:

      My tuppence worth:
      In 2014, Wings helped drive Indy support to 45% (see earlier, humble Wings post).
      In 2019, Nicola Sturgeon is the primary driver (not excluding Wings) to drive the figure well beyond 50%.
      It is difficult to believe that bloggers, indy groups, armchair commentators and the impatient brigade have access to more national and international info and legal advice to support a successful Scotref that SHE HAS DEVOTED HER ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE TO.

    219. Mad Unionist says:

      Rev Stuart Campbell. Time you promoted yourself from being a mere Rev. So what do you propose should happen considering the Scots voted to remain in the Union. Do you have a plan of action like taking over a post office.

    220. Liz g says:

      Cmonindy @ 11.58
      Aye,there’s nae argument there Cmonindy..

      But we’ve all, already, seen whit happens when we don’t put our opinions out there,switch off, and leave the politicians to it….. Any politicians,and that’s where Nicola would probably agree……
      Whit happens is 300 years of a stupid arrangement that needs tae go…
      So we watch and we comment…. This is a good thing….
      Nobody knows it all,and, if we can put an Idea of two into the mix…. That’s a good thing… Aye?

    221. robbo says:

      Am like asking guys – wit am a gonna get oot o ma pension?

      Am so fecked aff nae wan can answer this question.

      Its gees me doubts aboot the hale thing.

      Still be SNP awe the wae but this bothers me.

    222. Liz g says:

      Mad Unionist @ 12.06
      There’s no more post offices any more… They all got sold to the friends of Unionists.
      Nothing worth taking over…. Did ye have a point?
      Or did ye jist not know?

    223. Ghillie says:

      You’re ok Liz g! Though i think you are being a bit harsh on yourself 🙂

      Yeah. Interesting times.

      But hey, like many Wingers, I WILL be keeping faith with the SNP.

      I reckon they know what they’re doing =)

    224. robertknight says:

      @Liz g…

      Anyhoo… Where I disagree with the XYZ is in the position that we should leave Scotland to implement whatever it votes for.
      We so shouldn’t….
      Not from duty .
      Not from a moral perspective.
      But rather because it’s in English interests to stymie any Scexit,we are not forcing the people north of the border to take a course that is to their detriment,or not,…depending on their point of view…that would indeed be immoral…. But we can, and we should,like any other country… Take any and all positions that advances us.
      We have a position within this Union,and, while we are in it it’s all we have… Why on earth should we not use it as best we can to advance England?
      Therefore,I agree that, it is in the interests of England for the Territory that falls under the Westminster government other than England, to stay in the UK, so..then that’s what Westminster should be politicking for.


      See what I did there Liz? Happy with that? If it’s ok for Scotland to save England from the perceived dangers (to both) of Article 50, then can it not be equally ok for England to save Scotland from the perceived dangers (to both) of a Section 30 Order?

    225. robertknight says:

      @Mad Unionist person thing…

      The electorate in Scotland voted to remain in two Unions. Or did you forget…

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpQ2rRdWwAA_puf.jpg

    226. CameronB Brodie says:

      Territorial sovereignty is the bedrock of rational politics and international relations. From the perspective of Scotland, Brexit is an attack on this system of politics and on the international rule-of-law.

      Handbook of International Relations
      https://sk.sagepub.com/reference/hdbk_intlrelations

    227. Liz g says:

      robbo @ 12.18
      The same thing that happens tae every pension, the wans in Spain and the wans in Canada….
      The same thing that happens tae every insurance plan.

      It is National – INSURANCE – yer talking about here?

      Ye claim yer Insurance, that ye paid, and ye get yer pension,where ye happened to be on the globe disnay matter.

      To not pay out would rubbish every Insurance scheme on the planet… Noo… Scotland’s good but it’s no THAT good…
      How powerful do you imagine an independent Scotland is?

      We cannot trash every Insurance contract,even if we wanted too…And .. We certainly won’t do it by voting to leave an old Treaty…

      Yer, Pensions safe man, anybody tellin ye different,is playing ye,or ignorant!!

    228. Cactus says:

      Excellent news and congratulations… Wings twitter has now reached the milestone of 60K+ followers Yes! 🙂 Glasgow should be over 60% for Yes2 by now then

      Independence Live / Indy Live Radio have just launched their Spring crowdfunder:
      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/may-2019-new-office-radio#/

      All donations greatly appreciated

      ————-

      Livestreams for later today…

      LIVE SNP CONF – Day 1 #SNP19
      https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/SNPConf2019Day1

      LIVE Outer Hebrides for Independence – March and Rally in Stornoway, Lewis
      https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/stornoway-indy-march-rally

    229. Mad Unionist says:

      Liz G @ 12.06. My point was clear in response to ‘what are we going to do’. And the Post Office is turning out a profit with the workers being shareholders. Good old Maggie was not alive to see it. And a reminder, the SNP said they would take the PO in Scotland into public ownership. Liars.

    230. Capella says:

      New Yougov poll puts independence at 49% YES and 51%NO.
      A rise of 4% for YES. The EU elections are looking good for the SNP too.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/04/westminster-shudders-as-sensational.html

    231. CameronB Brodie says:

      “And the Post Office is turning out a profit with the workers being shareholders. Good old Maggie was not alive to see it.”

      Says the “center-leftist” from Glasgow. Strange?

    232. Liz g says:

      Robert Knight @ 12.26
      Absolutely… Very clever..
      And my point exactly,so glad you get it 🙂
      Have ye also noticed that “Leave” took all our arguments and because they were reasonable they won?
      It was demonstrable lies about the EU, but the media got behind it and extrapolated it for the voter’s.
      They became convinced and entrenched?

      Westminster must,and will, do what it must do.
      That’s a given!!!
      It’s not personal, it’s very rarely ever been personal!!

      I’m saying Holyrood/Yes/Scotland should not shy away from this… Strive to change it by all means but don’t think we can engage from a higher moral plane… We can’t..
      The better Government thing is for after!

      Politically ( and I do, and always will, only speak within democratic parameters here ) there’s a bit of respect to be had for doing what ye must no matter how unpleasant tae achieve yer aims..

    233. Liz g says:

      Mad Unionist @ 12.55
      Phew … That’s a relief…
      All this politics makes ye wonder.
      I thought fur a minute there ye were getting at the Irish issue wi the post office,and,and, almost asking the Rev if he recommended it….
      You weren’t were ye?

    234. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for a bit of scientific Brexitology?

      Cultures of Negotiation: Explaining Britain’s
      hard bargaining in the Brexit negotiations

      Abstract

      The Brexit negotiations present a puzzle for scholars of international bargaining, who tend to assume hard bargaining follows from advantages in bargaining power. In spite of its relative weakness vis-à-vis the EU27, however, the UK’s negotiating strategy bears all the hallmarks of hard bargaining. Drawing upon a series of elite interviews conducted in late 2017, this working paper argues that British hard bargaining is a consequence of three ideational factors particular to the UK case: the dominance of a conservative ideology of statecraft, a majoritarian institutional culture, and weak socialisation into European structures.

      These three factors not only predisposed UK policymakers to favour harder bargaining strategies, ceteris paribus, but also contributed to a misperception that Britain possessed more bargaining power than was actually the case. This paper argues that the UK’s bargaining strategy comes with a high risk of immediate failure, as well as longer term self-harm.

      Keywords
      Bargaining strategy; Brexit negotiations; United Kingdom; constructivism; ideology; institutional culture; socialisation

      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/sites/european-institute/files/cultures-of-negotiation-paper.pdf

    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      The up-short of (English) Tory cultural chauvinism, is the health and well-being of Scotland’s residents will be harmed. Brexit annihilates the principles of the British constitution, and places the human rights of Scotland’s residents on a setting of heightened uncertainty. This must not be allowed to happen.

      The Psychological Self as Actor, Agent, and Author

      Abstract

      The psychological self may be construed as a reflexive arrangement of the subjective “I” and the constructed “Me,” evolving and expanding over the human life course. The psychological self begins life as a social actor, construed in terms of performance traits and social roles. By the end of childhood, the self has become a motivated agent, too, as personal goals, motives, values, and envisioned projects for the future become central features of how the I conceives of the Me.

      A third layer of selfhood begins to form in the adolescent and emerging adulthood years, when the self as autobiographical author aims to construct a story of the Me, to provide adult life with broad purpose and a dynamic sense of temporal continuity.

      An integrative theory that envisions the psychological self as a developing I–Me configuration of actor, agent, and author helps to synthesize a wide range of conceptions and findings on the self from social, personality, cognitive, cultural, and developmental psychology and from sociology and other social sciences. The actor–agent–author framework also sheds new light on studies of self-regulation, self-esteem, self-continuity, and the relationship between self and culture.

      Keywords
      self, human development, narrative identity, autobiographical memory

      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691612464657

    236. Cactus says:

      This comment is about the next EU elections:

      SO ah’ve just recently received thru me letterbox a Polling Card invitation to elect Members of the European Parliament for the Electoral Region of Scotland

      Aye would imagine these Polling Cards would also be received by former non and no voters on their doorsteps as a matter of course (and you don’t even need to have your invitation card with you to vote)

      It is crucial to USE your democratic vote for electing Scotland’s Members for and of the European Parliament, even more so NOW than before

      Ye can imagine how the uk Unionist politicians and press would all go on about it… “oh look, the voting percentage was down on last time blah blah blah etc”. Then when it comes to voting day, some types even try to discourage people FROM voting in the first place, in their ploy to reduce input, engagement and value

      If previous non and no voters now feel they want a justified change, they should make sure they use their vote, in order to reduce the likelihood of ukUnionist politicians getting a seat in our European Parliament again

      After all, the UK is leaving the EU and we are voting in our Scottish Members, ah mean you wouldn’t want UKIP to gain a seat again, eh Scotland?

      Imagine the un-hideable headlines…

      “Scotland’s turnout for electing Scotland’s Members for and of the European Parliament DOUBLES from previous election”

      Use it or lose it, your vote

      Every time

    237. HYUFD says:

      The new Scottish Yougov poll had the Brexit Party getting 13% in the European Parliament elections in Scotland which would be enough to give the Brexit Party a Scottish MEP

    238. Liz g says:

      Hey Cactus xxx

    239. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 2.17
      We must get the young to register and to vote!!!

    240. Cactus says:

      SO the Brexit Party is allegedly polling around 13%, that’s quite a stat and eventual result if true, it just goes to show eh, that’s democracy for you, each to their own, cheers

      Marnin’ Liz xxx

    241. Cactus says:

      Yeah, a registration recruitment drive would be really good, the Yes youth could help cancel out a lot of the ukUnionist vote, make it about their generational vote

      What’s the criteria again for this European election, is it?

      1) 18+ over to vote
      2) You have a Scottish tax code
      3) You are a European Scot / National

    242. CameronB Brodie says:

      As Cactus says, “Use it or lose it, your vote”.

      A Self-Determination Theory account of Self-Authorship:
      Implications for Law and Public Policy

      Abstract

      Self-authorship has been established as the basis of an influential liberal principle of legislation and public policy. Being the author of one’s own life is a significant component of one’s own well-being, and therefore, is better understood from the viewpoint of the person whose life it is. However, most philosophical accounts, including Raz’s conception of self-authorship, rely on general and abstract principles rather than specific individual psychological properties of the person whose life it is.

      We elaborate on the principles of self-authorship on the basis of Self-Determination Theory, an empirically-based psychological theory that has been at the forefront of the study of autonomy and self-authorship for more than 45 years. Our account transcends distinctions between positive and negative freedom and attempts to pinpoint the exact properties of selfauthorship within the psychological processes of intrinsic motivation and internalization.

      If a primary objective of public policy is to support selfauthorship, then it should be devised on the basis of how intrinsic motivation and internalization can be properly supported. Self-Determination Theory identifies three basic psychological needs: autonomy, competence and relatedness. The satisfaction of these needs is associated with the support and growth of intrinsic tendencies and the advancement of well-being.

      Through this analysis, we can properly evaluate the significance of rationality, basic goods and the availability of options to self-authorship. Implications for law and policy are discussed with an emphasis on legal paternalism and what many theorists call “liberal perfectionism”, that is, the non-coercive support and promotion of the good life.

      Keywords:
      self-determination theory; self-authorship; autonomy; well-being; liberalism; paternalism; perfectionism

      selfdeterminationtheory.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017_Arvanitis_Kalliris_pre_print.pdf

    243. Cactus says:

      Ah like the sounds of that Cameron, “Self-Authorship”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-authorship

      X marks the spot

    244. Cactus says:

      Extract below from same link
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-authorship

      Elements of Self Authorship
      Trusting the internal voice

      By trusting the internal voice, one realizes that although reality is out of their control, one can control how they react to reality. By using internal voices as a way to shape reactions to external events, confidence in using personal beliefs and values is increased.[4]

      Building an internal foundation

      One consciously works to create an internal foundation to guide reactions to reality. One does this by combining one’s identity, relationships, beliefs and values into a set of internal commitments from which to act upon.[4]

      Securing internal commitments

      This happens when one shifts from making internal commitments to actually acting upon them.[4]”

      Excellent stuff! 😉

    245. Petra says:

      @ geeo says at 9:11 pm … ”Petra – 2 recent topic posts have invited a flood of posters of the type you mention, not great look.”

      Just two recent topic posts, geeo? Let’s see if this pattern (of articles) continues. If so, I can see this site going right down the stank. With what’s going on .. progressing (regressing) on here .. it will be akin to another Scotland in Union site before we know it. And not just down to the articles, of course. Quite telling that many of our regulars, pro-Independence supporters over many years (long before now), are gone now to be replaced by …. well just take a look. Take a look? Maybe that’s exactly what happened. They took a look, didn’t like what they saw on here .. night more so than day and did a runner. MANY of them never to return. Adding to the exodus now.

      ……………………………

      Meanwhile I want to point out how the proposal in this article is not a good idea. Stinks in fact. I’m reposting this to see if anyone else on here agrees with me or not.

      ”I can just imagine how such a scenario would play out. The SNP and T May come to an agreement – support my Brexit deal (MAYBE in the CU but not in the SM) in return for a Section 30 Order.

      The SNP support her and her deal gets passed. The MSM makes a meal of this in numerous ways, such as – SNP hand in hand with the Tories, SNP sell out the majority of Scots, Scots blamed for Brexit, etc, etc. The Scottish Remainers are enraged, as would be their ilk elsewhere (however not our problem). Scots in general, Remainers, Leavers and the non-politically minded, now see the SNP as being double-dealing hypocrites and support for them plummets.

      The SNP decide to hold their IndyRef2. In the lead up to that the MSM would point out that as the SNP MP’s supported it, plus Scottish Tory MP’s, it won’t be too bad for Scotland at all. It must be okay in fact. More than anything how on earth can Nicola Sturgeon stand up and use Brexit, with its many negative implications / repercussions, as a reason now for bailing out of the Union? If a deal such as this was done we could say bye-bye to our Independence for decades to come. We would lose IndyRef2. The SNP MSP’s would lose the 2021 Election (Brexit hypocrites / lousy day job politicians) and I reckon that the party would be decimated for all time coming.

      Westminster would have learned its lesson and if either Davidson or Leonard (or future equivalents) ended up ruling the roost in Scotland Westminster would support them by upping their sweetie money to get pot-holes etc filled in. Look see how good the Unionists in Scotland are at getting on with the day job. Didn’t we tell you that the SNP were untrustworthy, inept, wee charlatans.”

    246. Cactus says:

      Here’s a song for thru the night

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNEdxZURTaI

    247. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think it would be strategic folly to support any form of the full-English Brexit. As Petra points out, it would not represent Scotland’s pro-EU vote. I can understand why the SNP supported an amendment to A50, aimed at avoiding the damage of a no-deal scenario, but that is not the same as supporting Brexit.

      Brexit can be expected to cause serious harm to Scotland’s economic and social well-being. It will happen one way or another, if only in name (BRINO). This would be the perfect platform on which to run an indy campaign shaped by the Scottish government and not Westminster. One that will more than likely succeed, IMHO.

    248. yesindyref2 says:

      I wouldn’t worry about it, it’ll all come out in the wash as they say. Or at least as some say, or was it just one person with mutiple names even way back then? The mind boggles!

      Meanwhile, even if you hate the SNP vote for them in the EU Elections – just in case that helps Independence as some, including me, think it will. Just hold the nose, and put an X in the box and then go outside. It’s not polite to vomit in polling stations, not approved of at all. It’s OK on the Northern Line though, apparently.

      The gemme’s afoot as Sherlock almost said. No shit! Or was that the bear in the woods? Cactus knows!

      Emotions are high at the moment. Well, even if it means people fall out, it’s good. Because if our emotions are high, you should see the state of the Unionists, if we’re all over the place, at 6’s and 7’s, they’re in the midden playing with the stuff at ground zero and absolute zero to boot. There’s even one back to the old line about the UK starting in 1800 with the Union with Ireland, even when you quote the relevant bit(s) in the Act of Union with England of 1707.

      *laughs*

      Peckers up people. Not sure if there should be a comma in there.

    249. Does a section 30(2) get approval from the UK Gov or UK parliament,

      can Theresa say yes/no without the backing of a parliament vote.

    250. Ken500 says:

      Mr Bean is often wrong muddled thinking. Lack of intellect but things fall into place at the end. There will be no Brexit as someone knows it. Who knows but Brexit means Brexit but no one knows precisely what Brexit means.

      People know what Ibdependence means more people coming on board all the time. Even once staunch unionists as they know it on learning the facts and advantages. The opportunity to stay in the EU being one for vast benefits. It costs Scotland nothing and brings vast benefits. Same with the rest of the UK even the ones who swallowed the lies.

      Johnston would not last a month (or Gove the goldfish sprout), as PM. Johnstone is a malious, lying criminal of evil intent to defraud, it would all come out. He would cause a 111WW to line his pockets. Trump refused conflict on the Russian border stumping Johnstone, to recline back in his Box. Even booed in London. The dope on a rope. A complete malicious clown liar of monumental proportions. Now getting found out further down the line. The zip wire coming unstuck. For an even bigger bump.

      The Tories going down big time. Just wait. The rats in a sack will start scrambling once their privilege comes under threat. There is nothing they can do about. The mast nailed by complete and utter incompetent Brexit mess. People will try to protect their livelihoods. Quite right. A move from the right for many. People have had enough of the farce. Once again.

      Farague the crook has failed 7 times trying to become an MP. Almost as much as Fraser. Farague, brexiteers, a total lying, embezzling greedy failure. He should be in jail. Instead protected by the Tory grandees. An alcoholic. Alooholic make poor decisions and judgement with proper total abstinence (one chance) rehab counselling

      The average member of the Tory party over seventy and male. The Brexit carry on could finish it off. Into the wilderness again, and no wonder. What a colossal waste of high proportions. A total and utter disgrace. Blooming awful for a so called administration to carry on like that. A complete and utter costly mess of utter incompetence only surpassed by previous actions since 1928 and before.

      The Tories are going down big time come Elections. From their demise will come many advantageous opportunities. Independence being the main one. Just hold on. Democratically, demographically Scotland will survive big time. When Scotland gets better off as a result. So will the rest of the world.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence for a better world. Get another to vote as well. Job done. The future is bright. For which there is everything to play and plan. Everyone who is able can play their part. Let’s go ahead. The starting blocks are coming off. Donate, join, help big time. The gang is getting back together even stronger than before. Let’s do it this time round.

      Staunch unionists are changing their minds when the case is made from YES leaflets. The way to go with all the improvement of the SNP Scottish Gov. Steaming ahead.. Railways, bridges, roads built. Massive improvements to daily lives and conductivity. Into the 21C. What an economic improvement. Renewables. Supporting essential services, mitigating Westminster evil cuts and unequal vicious policies. Totally unneccessary.

      Support SNHS with increased funding and MUP, supported by all parties, except Labour. Massive improvements all around. Including increased resources and revenues which Westmibster unionists milk off, illegally and secretly with vast mismanagement of Scottish affairs. That needs changing many recognise.

      Iraq War, Lockerbie, Dunblane illegally kept secret under the Official Secrets Act for 100 years. What are the unionists trying to hide. Unlawful under International Law. The people have a right to know. Instead of secrecy and lies. The Westminster unionist way of illegal collusion. Breaking International Law in all spheres including Demicrscy.

      Westminster a democratic deficit. Unlawful non democratic behaviour. Causing harm to too many people. The Tories are going down big time. May and her cronies will be gone. She lasted less time than Thatcher. The evel. Cameron the stuntman. Lie, after lie, after lie. Collusion and conspiracy. The ConDem collusion. People are now suffering big time from their lying policies. Violent manipulators causing unneccessary strife,. Including Brexit.

      Cameron now embezzling public funds. The Chinese/British consortium. Wasting public money like a drain. The Tory slush fund. Clegg now working for illegal tax evaders. Suckerberg. Totally illegal activities trying to destroy the world and retain poverty. Clegg one of the worse, greedy opportunists in the world. Flying in the face of every declared principle. A public disgrace. Suppose to support EU principles, yet working for the biggest EU tax dodgers in the world. A total cop out to line his greedy extensive pockets. Criminal activity again. Lie, after lie, after lie. Cable knew of illegal child abuse and did nothing. Swinson wants more nurseries in the Commons. More nappy changing facilities.

    251. Breeks says:


      Petra says:
      26 April, 2019 at 9:07 pm
      ….. As decent posters leave the site, one after another, many pretendy wee pro-Independence supporters, time wasters, tr*lls and a resident disc jockey have taken over. Sad to say the least. This site is influential as you know, so I’m asking, a call to arms, all genuine Independence supporters to get on here to support the cause…

      Petra have you the slightest notion of how puerile and patronising that sounds?

      I’ve told you before there’s a train coming, but even that’s too cryptic for you, so I’ll now have to be less subtle and spell it out so even the Unionists can see it. There is an iceberg of dissatisfaction with the lack of progress towards Indy and the manner in which it has been pursued.

      So far, the SNP has been blessed with a sullen patience amongst Indy supporters who recognise the SNP is the only vehicle capable of delivering Independence, but what progress have we actually secured since defeat in 2014, and what purchase have we made from the heaven sent opportunities of Brexit to reenergise the case for Independence?

      It is patronising to maintain that solid support for Indy is a direct consequence of the SNP’s hard work, when you might equally argue that static support for Indy is a direct consequence of the SNP’s unimaginative and tepid strategy for winning it.

      If you want to cast a cruel and cynical eye over what Nicola has achieved, her proposal to have an Indy referendum before the end of this parliamentary session “sounds” reasonable, but what it actually delivers is negotiating Brexit from inception to delivery, while securing no purchase whatsoever for ANY of Scotland’s Brexit Interests. We’ll have negotiated Brexit as if it was a minefield, and squandered Brexit as the wholly unconstitutional and colonialist imposition foisted upon Scotland by a batshit crazy right wing xenophobic BritNat Establishment. Tell me, how is it possible to navigate our way through Westminster’s Brexit and NOT see demand for Independence screeching towards 90%??? We have very nearly missed the damned boat.

      You come on here to slag off anyone and everyone critical of the SNP, when people derided as trolls aren’t trolls at all but genuine Indy supporters wrestling with disillusion because the Party which is meant to win Independence cannot seem to recognise the opportunity which Brexit and democratic rejection of Brexit has delivered.

      Let me paraphrase Clarice Starling from Silence of the Lambs Petra, “Why don’t you turn that high-powered perception at yourself and tell us what you see, or, maybe you’re afraid to.” You tell me Petra, why do you think people are sick to their back teeth of a pedestrian and ineffective campaign to win our Nation’s freedom and maintain our European citizenship? Why is it only the SNP who thinks we’re winning this?

      I am heart sick of this SNP MacCarthyism that anyone and everyone who is anxious that we might lose this fight and blow this opportunity is a troll, a tractor(ed), a heretic, a Brigade 77 plant, or agent provocateur. Has it ever entered your thick head that maybe their affliction with doubt is a thoroughly honest reaction to a colourless and nebulous Independence campaign which is scared to admit it is floundering to find its direction?

      If the SNP wants to end the carping and criticism, which will I fear escalate into acrimonious recriminations, then it better start to deliver on people’s expectations and stop leaving them deflated and directionless with anodyne, enigmatic strategy and rhetoric. People want Brexit thwarted and Independence delivered, and they want a strong and purposeful SNP to deliver it. That’s what they voted for, but it has yet to turn up.

      No doubt you’ll all howl that I’m up to my usual SNPbad or whatever shite amuses you, but I hope for the sake of Scotland, and for the sake of the SNP, that what emerges of the SNP Conference is a clear and concise articulate plan to extricate Scotland from Brexit in a manner which leaves the United Kingdom Union Constitutionally untenable. We stay in Europe, and if the rest of the UK is determined to Brexit, then the Union is at an end.

      Ian Blackford says Scotland will not be removed from Europe against its will. That’s terrific. I mean it. It makes my heart soar to the heavens when hear it said. But, it’s said as if it’s a policy of last resort, not the Plan A headline flagship policy for securing our Constitutionally sovereign emancipation.

      I want more soaring with Ian Blackford, and much less stalling from Nicola. It really is that simple, but time is all but running out.

    252. North chiel says:

      “ Petra @0324a.m. Well certainly would appear that our FM must be doing something right ! Perhaps some posters should take a look at the latest polling highlighted on Scot goes pop blog as per “Capella ‘s link at 0100 a.m.

    253. Nana says:

      Just a few links for now

      https://www.lesleyriddoch.com/2019/04/game-on.html

      Angus Robertson on the politics show
      “What kind of a United Kingdom is that?”
      https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1121743628160815105

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/04/westminster-shudders-as-sensational.html

      An Independent Scotland in the EU: Timing and Challenges
      https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-10897

    254. Nana says:

      P&O sues UK government over no-deal Brexit ferry case
      http://archive.is/ewF6l

      I used to work in the City in big corporate life. I was a Tory donor and know a lot of hedge fund types. Now I run a couple of small businesses, one an old family export business, badly screwed by Brexit. I am angry about it, but even angrier about the lies surrounding Brexit
      https://twitter.com/CricketingMan/status/1120105044353921024

      https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/huawei-5g-cabinet-leak-theresa-may-china-enquiry-a8887811.html

      https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/04/26/week-in-review-an-equal-opportunities-disaster-zone

    255. Nana says:

      https://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_26th_april_2019

      https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2019/04/26/how-will-it-end/

      A Scottish caller was left admitting “You’ve got me there” after James O’Brien questioned his views on Scottish Independence
      https://twitter.com/pilaraymara/status/1121686112840192000

      Over the sea to….Stornoway. With the Soar Caesar! Pipes and Drums
      https://twitter.com/Flowergirl2908/status/1121838892343283712

    256. Dorothy Devine says:

      Cactus , you mention something which puzzles me and leaves elections open to fraud and that is , why send out polling cards which state you don’t need them to vote?

      I think I might insist on the cards to prove who you are and your entitlement to vote .

      Nana ,lovely to se your links . I hope you are well and rested for the fray!

    257. Orri says:

      Two things.

      A Brexit deal that only passed by SNP votes is never going to work or be stable. It’s so fucking stupid though that it might just happen.
      The first and obvious problem is the SNP have no mandate for it and it would be played to the hilt as Scotland not being removed from the EU against its will.
      The second is that there’s the whole morality aspect of attempting to bind the rUK to a course of action on the basis that Scotland will not suffer the consequences.
      The third is that if the SNP are what gets a deal through and not takes place, or even if it doesn’t, it’ll collapse as soon as the SNP no longer prop it up.

      The second thing..
      An S30 is an agreement between Westminster and Holyrood for the transfer of power between them. That’d actually includes the powers being stolen exc

    258. Orri says:

      .
      weren’t using a rule where UK laws could be protected even in devolved areas.

      The point is if the Westminster government changes then technically any S30 needn’t be honoured.

      Also Westminster could simply repeal any Holyrood legislation at any time.

      What an S30 is used for in this case is to enact the outcome by changing the rUK constitution regarding the territory Westminster has jurisdiction over.

      Perhaps we should restate an S30 refusal as ….

      Westminster refuse to be bound by the results of Scottish Independence Referendum

    259. Dan says:

      Breeks says @ 7:26 am

      “It is patronising to maintain that solid support for Indy is a direct consequence of the SNP’s hard work, when you might equally argue that static support for Indy is a direct consequence of the SNP’s unimaginative and tepid strategy for winning it.”

      Aye, that is fair comeback to Petra’s post.
      It could also be that the maintaining and increasing support for Indy is down to the exceptional ongoing efforts of various individuals and YES groups.
      My local YES groups have put on dozens of events, activities, and street stalls to engage with and inform the public of the positive aspects of Scotland governing itself.

      The commitment these volunteer activists (many of which aren’t political party members) put in off their own backs is not something that should be ignored or derided.

      Good to see Nana back with her links.

    260. Nana says:

      Morning Dorothy, I’m still enjoying the last few days of holiday time but thought I’d pop in with a few links and check to see what you’ve all been up to.
      I see Rev has been stirring it up. Looks like the last few posts have flushed out the anti indy gang.

      Perhaps the Yes campaign should commence and stir things up, I’m sure once the people get involved and have something positive to aim for and get the polls moving in the right direction 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4Zm6YRHDk

      As the man said

      I’d rather be a free man in my grave
      Than living as a puppet or a slave
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Znh0OM9jiA

    261. Frank Gillougley says:

      Glad to see you back, Nana, restoring some semblance of perspective around here. Your links make for very informative reading/viewing. Thank you.

    262. Mad Unionist says:

      Liz G. The Scottish referendum was for Scotland only. The EU referendum was UK wide. If you participate you should accept the results. Old SNP ladies taking over the Banff PO could be Earth shaking.

    263. schrodingers cat says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      26 April, 2019 at 11:35 pm
      “You know what I get really tired of, people saying that once brexit happens, it will be so bad that the polls for indy will shift. I really don’t think that is correct…”

      Precisely.
      ————

      predicting the future is never precise, polls, personal experience etc, only indicate the probability of an outcome.

      however, they do indicate a swing to indy in the event of a hard brexit.

      on a brighter note, the polls this morning are eye watering
      the unionists vote is completely split for up and coming elections and support for yes is up

      Should Scotland be an independent country?

      Yes 49% (+4)
      No 51% (-4)

    264. cassandra says:

      The last few weeks have been very interesting here.

      The cosy consensus BTL is no longer there. The curtain has been drawn back and Nicola Sturgeon has been found seriously wanting.

      The mourning of some posters here over the good old days when they could post the same old shit over and over again and get high-fived is hilarious. Don’t worry Dr Jim will be back, he has flounced at least twice before.

      The sense of entitlement is still there though. Who decides who is an Independence supporter? And not just that, as well as deciding what posters are allowed to say BTL they have now started on the Rev because he is writing stuff that makes them uncomfortable on his own site? Shake the tree Liz? I’ll say the Rev has. Maybe he has taken back ownership of this site.

      And the insinuations about money Petra, don’t play innocent. If I were the Rev, I’d return every penny to you and boot your sorry arse out of here, but he won’t and if it is me that goes so be it, but it needs to be said.

      The Rev owes nothing to the current SNP who are happy to have their wokey weirdos denigrate and disavow him on social media. Yet he is supposed to pander to the slavishly devoted on his own site?

      Let me make it clear if Alex Salmond is cleared of the charges, Sturgeon is out. Even if he is not there is a lot of unhappiness at her turgid caretaker approach. All this ‘she has wanted Indy for 30 years so she knows what she is doing’ is utter horseshit. She inherited everything that Salmond had put his neck on the line for. He walked the walk, she talks the talk.

      Real Independence supporters? You have seen nothing yet as we start to take OUR party back from the mealy mouthed apologists who prefer photo ops, book clubs and sitting back waiting, to actually getting the job done.

    265. schrodingers cat says:

      Only a minority (48%) oppose a new iref in the next 5 years. With 42% well up for it and 8% not against but fence sitting.

      Sturgeon still with positive sat ratings 12 years into FM/DM.

      Sturgeon 47(+1)% Well
      May 18(-58)% Well
      Corbyn 12(-65)% Well
      Lenman 10(-29)% Well

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      Westminster

      SNP 43% (+3 on June 2018 poll)
      Tory 20% (-7)
      Lab 17% (-6)
      LD 9% (+2)
      Brexit 4% (new)
      Green 3% (+1)
      Change 2%

      Seat projection: SNP 51, LD 4, Con 3, Lab 1.

    267. schrodingers cat says:

      Holyrood polling.

      SNP 46% (+5 from June 2018 poll)
      Tory 22% (-5)
      Lab 16% (-6)
      LD 7% (+1)
      Brexit 4% (new)
      Green 3% (+1)
      Change 1% (new)

      Taken with the Regional , The Times has given a seat projection of SNP 63, Tory 25, Lab 18, Green 11, Lib Dem 7 and Brexit 5. Presumably the Tory -> Brexit revolt is even bigger on the list.

    268. schrodingers cat says:

      44% Yes
      45% No
      10% DK
      1% Refused

    269. Kangaroo says:

      I don’t give a sh%t about a S30, it does not matter a jot. WM sees it as them giving permission. We don’t need their permission. If you have to ask permission then you are NOT in a Union you are a Dominion, a Colony. Scotland is an EQUAL partner in The Union if we want to #DissolveTheUnion then we dont need anyone else’s agreement.

      Instead of such a pathetic offer of a S30 in exchange for agreement of their Brexit, we should instead Demand that WM legislate for the irrevocable and indisputable DevoMax that was promised as a result of the No vote of 2014. That is everything but Defence and Foreign Affairs. Without this as a prerequisite there should be No discussion on passing their Brexit deal. End of. We will still Reserve the right to adjust the Brexit deal to suit Scotland, which may or may not include such things as the Customs Union and Single Market access. If a Hard border ensues then so be it.

    270. Ian Mackay says:

      I think the biggest stumbling block to this idea is Westminster itself.

      They’ve completely destroyed any trust they ever had in Scotland.

      Imagine May signed off on that deal. Her Mayhem Brexit deal goes through. Would she hold to a Section 30? I think not.

      Or alternatively Westminster gives a Section 30 first, May’s deal goes through… what is to stop May or perhaps even Boris just passing legislation to stop it.

      They’ve retrospectively passed laws to inhibit and strip Holyrood of its powers… so they evidently don’t give one shit about Scotland.

      The only way this would work is if indyref2 goes ahead before Brexit – and since the SNP have said they want to wait until the terms of Brexit are known – then they could be losing Don’t Knows in the next independence referendum.

      The SNP should be challenging the idea of a Section 30 at all. This is Scotland’s choice, not Westminsters. You didn’t hear the EU saying to Westminster that they couldn’t have a referendum.

      Scotland shouldn’t be going cap in hand like a slave for the right to be free. It should ALWAYS be Scotland’s choice. Whenever we choose; no matter what Westminster says.

    271. Cubby says:

      Cassandra doing her best to implement the standard British empire tactic of divide and conquer.

      Cassandra says let’s have another SNP civil war as the last one was a bit of a dud.

      The Britnats have nothing but dirty tactics and lies.

      Independence is coming.

    272. robertknight says:

      No point trying to run a wildcat IndyRef2…

      At best, Yoon local authorities, and voters, will simply boycott it – no legitimacy whatever the result.

      At worst, a Cataluña situation develops.

      Furthermore, in the eyes of the world, having gone down the Section 30 road before, and lost, ‘Yes’ would look like it is trying to move the goal posts to secure a victory it would be unlikely to achieve by the previously accepted method.

      You either have the Section 30, or you go down the road of a single issue on the party manifesto come the next Scottish GE – whereby a majority SNP MSPs returned PLUS over 50% of the total votes cast going to the SNP is a mandate to repeal the 1707 Act Ratifying and Approving the Treaty of Union of the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England.

      To this by any other means lacks legitimacy.

    273. Cubby says:

      Where Is the the law that says a sect 30 MUST be agreed before the people of Scotland can have their say on any matter.

      I asked previously where is the quote from the SNP that said they MUST have a S30. Nobody has posted anything. All I have heard from the SNP is the word PREFER.

      This talk of wildcat referendums is 100% Britnat speak. There is no such thing. Too many people are either sneaky phoney independence supporters or still got too much cringe in them.

      If the Britnats do not want to vote then fine. People do not vote ( often large percentages ) all the time in elections or referendums that does not invalidate them.

      There is a democratic mandate for an indyref2. This cannot be a wildcat referendum.

      Personally, I have always thought it a mistake to change from Westminster elections determining independence to referendums but there is a mandate from the people of Scotland for a referendum and no sect 30 can or should stop it happening.

      Scotland is not Catalonia. Scotland is not part of the UK. Scotland is in a bipartite union. We can leave any time we decide to leave.

    274. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. GREAT to see you back, pleased that you managed to get a well deserved break and more than anything thanks for your link showing that support for Independence is rising.

      ……………………………………………

      Breeks / Dan … “It is patronising to maintain that solid support for Indy is a direct consequence of the SNP’s hard work.”

      I don’t think for one minute that solid support for Indy is solely down to the SNP at all. I’ve never said that and don’t consider that to be the case.

      ……………………….

      And now on to this one. Cassandra jumping onto the bandwagon, eh!

      @ cassandra says at 10:36 am … ”And the insinuations about money Petra, don’t play innocent. If I were the Rev, I’d return every penny to you and boot your sorry arse out of here, but he won’t and if it is me that goes so be it, but it needs to be said.”

      You had better elaborate on YOUR insinuation Cassandra about ”money” and in fact retract that comment, ASAP.

      Money? I’ve happily contributed to every crowdfunder on here (and elsewhere) and will continue to do so. I have in fact suggested more than once that we should crowdfund to £million, if possible, to get more Blue Books out. I’ve posted my support for Stu consistently, including financial, in relation to legal issues. I’ve suggested crowdfunding to give Stu a break abroad (and Nana) and even crowdfunding to buy him a house in Scotland as a thank you for all the great work that he has done for the cause over many years. It’s all on record.

      One thing for sure is that you’re NO innocent, rather a Machiavellian little minx. ”The curtain has been drawn back” on you and exposed you for what you are … and it’s not a nice sight.

    275. robertknight says:

      @Cubby

      Try avoid the BritNat conspiracy theories, eh? Too many here jump on the ‘I don’t like what this person says so they must be a BritNat’ bandwagon. Be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

      What you say is/was legit, right up to and until 2014.

      It is problematic to say the least, having previously agreed on a specific course of events in order to achieve the end goal of the 2014 referendum, to decide that you now consider that process to be somehow flawed and wholly unnecessary.

      The die was cast by the passing of The Scottish Independence Referendum Act (2013), and no amount of ‘Yoons under the bed’ paranoia changes that.

      You either go down the same Section 30 road as before, or failing WM playing ball, you adopt the >50% vote & >50% MSPs road.

      To do otherwise will not be seen as legitimate and all the puff about not being Cataluña etc. will be lost on the general public in Scotland, on those in the rUK and on those in the international community who will all be fed a diet of Yoon spin and propaganda c/o the usual suspects.

    276. Liz g says:

      Mad Unionist @ 10.24
      You are responding to comments I didn’t make…
      Stop trying the misdirection of the conversation it’s cowardly,and in this case poorly done.

    277. Clapper57 says:

      Eric McLean says @ 26 April 3.59pm

      Hi Eric…great post.

    278. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight@1.58pm

      You are free to comment on anything I said it is a public forum after all. Please note I never said anything about Britnat conspiracy theories. In fact I think this is probably the first I’ve EVER used the word. So please do not try to paint me as a conspiracy theorist. It is insulting. In fact your “yoons under the bed” comment is also insulting as I never said that. I do not use the term yoons -never have.

      It’s very kind of you to say what I said was legit up to 2014. It seems you keep wanting to put words into my mouth. You have your opinion I have mine. There is no die cast etc etc. Who says we have to do the exact same as 2014 – Robert Knight – good on you. I say we don’t – good on me. Want to prove why we have to follow the same course as 2014. If you can prove it rather than “the die is cast ” then you are advocating we just keep waiting till some kind Britnat democrat comes along in no. 10 to give us permission – pathetic. Britnats would love this.

      As I said I have no problem with a general election for independence every 5 years or even more frequent as is often the case. I also have no problem with a referendum without a sect 30.

      You call facts “puff”. Well it may be lost on the general public but perhaps that is because so many people go along with Britnat lies and call it puff. Why do you support Britnat lies? People who know the truth should not call it puff. That’s part of the reason we are where we are today. Shout the truth from the rooftops. Unless of course you think we are not in a bi partite union. Unless of course you think England owns Scotland.

      I am sorry that you as an independence supporter do not see a referendum of the Scottish people as legitimate. Now that really is a bit of a cringe right there. Do what our masters in Westminster say, eh.

    279. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, so why is British nationalism so persistent, apart from it continually being re-framed, re-processed and re-invigorated through the media. Why do the Tories get away with oppressing collective action aimed at the betterment of society? Lots of reasons, so I think it’s time we looked at a few.

      Correlates of Acceptance of Wealth Inequality: A Moderated Mediation Model
      https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00900/full

    280. Cubby says:

      Ian MacKay@11.54am

      “Scotland shouldn’t be going cap in hand like a slave for the right to be free. It should ALWAYS be Scotlands choice. Whenever we choose; no matter what Westminster says.”

      I thought your words were worth repeating. I would only add to to that – by what method – as well. Scotland chooses.

      Anything else is a level of cringe – Robert Knight.

    281. Dean says:

      Hey, support Brexit and I will give you a second indyref. 6 months later, na, just kidding, now is not the time. It would also be pretty difficult fighting for independence of the back of a broken Brexit that they voted for.

    282. CameronB Brodie says:

      Those who comment btl here and elsewhere on social media, are personalities who tend to be less ambivalent about their views. We are opinionated, where as most folk aren’t unless pressed. This is good news, in a way, as it means their minds aren’t full and they can be persuaded through education.

      An Examination of Whether Mindfulness Can Predict the Relationship Between Objective and Subjective Attitudinal Ambivalence
      https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00854/full

    283. CameronB Brodie says:

      As I’ve said before, Brexit scares the shit out of me, as does any rigid, group-based, thinking.

      Cognitive Inflexibility Predicts Extremist Attitudes

      Research into the roots of ideological extremism has traditionally focused on the social, economic, and demographic factors that make people vulnerable to adopting hostile attitudes towards outgroups. However, there is insufficient empirical work on individual differences in implicit cognition and information processing styles that amplify an individual’s susceptibility to endorsing violence to protect an ideological cause or group.

      Here we present original evidence that objectively-assessed cognitive inflexibility predicts extremist attitudes, including a willingness to sacrifice one’s life for the group. Across two samples (N=1,047) from the UK and USA, structural equation models demonstrated that cognitive inflexibility predicted endorsement of violence to protect the national ingroup, which in turn predicted a willingness to die for the group.

      These statistical models accounted for an average of 31.4% of the variance in willingness to die for the group, after accounting for demographic variables. Furthermore, cognitive inflexibility was related to greater confidence in the decision to sacrifice one’s life in an ingroup trolley problem scenario.

      Analysis of participants’ performance on the cognitive tasks revealed that cognitive rigidity – distinctly from other aspects of cognition – was specifically implicated as a cognitive antecedent of extremist attitudes. Implications for the study of radicalization through a neurocognitive lens are discussed.

      https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00989/abstract

    284. yesindyref2 says:

      @robertknight
      No point trying to run a wildcat IndyRef2…

      At best, Yoon local authorities, and voters, will simply boycott it – no legitimacy whatever the result.

      At worst, a Cataluña situation develops.

      If a Holyrood Referendum Bill passes there is one month for it to be challenged before it goes for Royal Assent. If it isn’t challenged or is challenged unsuccessfully, it then receives Royal Assent and becomes an Act, and is the Law in Scotland. Royal Assent has not been refused by the Queen since Queen Anne, in 1708 I think.

      So there is no such thing as an “illegal” referendum, or a “wildcat” referendum. It would be a legal referendum. A totally legal referendum. “illegal” and “wildcat” are words used by unionists – or those ignorant of Scots law, or in fact, law in general.

      The referendum would then be under the EMB for Scotland, and organised by them under the supervision of the Returning Officers who could be anyone, you, me, Robert Peffers. For convenience it is usually council officers, who have the easy authority to use council resources suh as schools. But it doesn’t have to be. The checkers and counters and polling station officials are volunteers, anyone can volunteer and be accepted if suitable.

      I do not know what powers of enforcement or co-option Returming Officers have, but there are legal duties on them, and they can be fined if they do not act on their duties, they are accountable to the Courts. It is illegal to interfere with a lawful election or referendum, and there are fines and even imprisonment for such interference.

      ——–
      Returning Officer duties (Page 14):

      “Breach of official duty and power to correct procedural errors
      3.19 You are also subject to breach of official duty provisions. This means that if you or your appointed deputies are, without reasonable cause, guilty of any act or omission in breach of official duty you (and/or they) are liable on summary conviction to an unlimited fine in England and Wales or, in Scotland, a fine not exceeding £5,000“.

      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/175365/UKPE-Part-A-Returning-Officer-role-and-responsibilities.pdf
      ————

      In addition, it is the EMB – Electoral Management Board for Scotland, who organised the last one, and would organise this one evem more so, as I think the EC is being sidelined after this consultation.

      So politicians and even office holders can boycott the election as far as their own vote is concerned, but can NOT prevent a legal referendum taking place.

    285. yesindyref2 says:

      Scotland is not Catalonia. The UK is not Spain.

    286. robertknight says:

      @Cubby

      FFS. So if it’s not closet BritNat/Yoonism it’s the dreaded cringe? Give me strength…

      The reality of where ‘Yes’ and the SNP finds itself in Brexit Britain often appears to be lost in the echo chamber that is Wings.

      You’ve seen the front pages of the newspapers – National excepted – these past couple of days? That’s the reality of what we’re up against, and that’s at the mere indication of an intention to seek a Section 30.

      I’ve never been on the winning side of any referendum I’ve voted in, so trust me when I say I’m not a big fan. However, the mechanism previously agreed by both sides as to the running of such with regard to independence for Scotland has been established, and you can neither escape from nor ignore that fact. The SNP leadership, whether they like it or not, seem to have come to terms with that reality.

      Furthermore, it isn’t the people here who might read through the likes of Mr Peffers’ lengthy posts as to the constitutional status of this or that who need convincing about legitimacy. It’s those who take no interest in such matters and who will be swayed by front page headlines who do.

      ‘Yes’ needs to box clever and gifting the opposition any excuse to cry ‘foul’ will make the whole exercise one in futility – self-righteous indignation will win you sod all at the ballot box.

    287. CameronB Brodie says:

      Zactly, S30 is an agreement between governments, not permission from Westminster. Scotland is not Catalonia, the UK is not Spain.

    288. robertknight says:

      @yesindyref2

      It’d never get as far as Royal Assent as it’d end up bogged down in the UKSC and I wouldn’t bet on that body coming down on the side of the Scottish Parliament. WM would just pass blocking legislation while the UKSC dropped their collective pens under the desk for a few weeks – they’ve done it once, they’d do it again.

      Alternatively, WM could take the nuclear option and simply bring legislation into effect to suspend the Scottish Parliament and prevent it’s members from sitting.

      Think for one second that they wouldn’t in order to keep their precious Union?

    289. robertknight says:

      “Scotland is not Catalonia. The UK is not Spain.”

      No argument from me, but is your average punter who we need to bring around to voting ‘Yes’ either aware or remotely interested in the constitutional distinctions between the two?

    290. yesindyref2 says:

      @robertknight

      It’d never get as far as Royal Assent as it’d end up bogged down in the UKSC etc.

      In which case this:

      No point trying to run a wildcat IndyRef2…
      At best, Yoon local authorities, and voters, will simply boycott it – no legitimacy whatever the result.

      would never happen. They are mutually exclusive.

      The Scottish Gvoernment will NOT hold an illegal referendum.

      Any Referendum the Scottish Government run, will be legal.

    291. CameronB Brodie says:

      robertknight
      I doubt it, so perhaps the SNP could put some thought in to how to overcome this lack of public awareness. They are in government and are likely to remain as such. Perhaps through a public education drive?

      @SNP
      Residents of Scotland are about to be stripped of their EU citizenship. That is a fundamental infringement of basic human rights. I want my human rights protected, please see to it.

    292. robertknight says:

      “The Scottish Gvoernment will NOT hold an illegal referendum.

      Any Referendum the Scottish Government run, will be legal.”

      I agree 100%, but IMHO the S30 would be the ingredient required for the above to occur. I doubt the SG would risk it without the S30 and an alternative to a referendum would then be required – the >50% of votes & > 50% of MSPs at a Scottish GE being a legitimate alternative, again IMHO.

    293. Cubby says:

      Someone who is bandying around the words illegal referendum want to define what that is.

      Still waiting for someone to show me where the SNP said they MUST have a sect 30.

    294. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight@4.47pm

      Yes glad to see that you have the strength to read my actual words and not jump to your own pre conceived ideas re yoons under the bed and all that crap. Yes an element of cringe. Do you think independence supporters are all totally free of it.

      I asked you to prove why we have to follow the same course as 2014 – no reply. When/ where was was it established as a “fact” in your words that all future referendums must follow the process of 2014? Also does that then mean that the Britnats can also just cheat again eg the infamous vow. No cringe Robert -really?

      No answer re why you call facts “puff””. Perhaps so many people do not know the truth is because people who do know the truth give in to the Britnat media and call it “puff”. No I did not see the headlines from the Britnat papers. So what. It’s all propaganda and lies all the time – what am I missing that is of value. Perhaps you are too easily influenced by the headlines.

      So you say you have not been on the winning side of any referendum. Did you not vote to remain in the EU. Is that not what the 62 represents? Therefore you were on the winning side. Unless of course you believe the Britnat crap that it was a U.K. Vote. More cringe Robert? Perhaps it is me who should be saying give me strength.

      Please give me strength to write replies to all this cringe induced guff – not puff. Until you get your level of cringe under control perhaps you need to stay clear of Britnat papers. They do not need any excuse to write lies and propaganda – it’s there every day.

    295. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight @5.03pm

      Read your own post at 5.03pm and then go back to your earlier post. In that post you say “At worst a Catalonia situation develops.”

      Why post your earlier comment if you know it not to be true. Too easily influenced by Britnat media?

      Why help the Britnat media by reproducing their lies and propaganda on Wings?

    296. robertknight says:

      @Cubby

      I confess to giving up at the first “cringe”. So, for the last time, I’ll set out my thoughts…

      The SG will not go down the road of a referendum sans S30 because it might also be of the opinion that…

      • Unionist led local authorities will likely be instructed, (by party HQs in London), not to cooperate and will no doubt try to land up in the courts.

      • Unionist supporters will be urged by their respective parties to boycott participation in any such referendum.

      • Unionist MSPs will likely be instructed by their London HQs not to take up their seats in the Chamber at Holyrood.

      • Scottish Parliament legislation will likely be bogged down in the UKSC and will potentially be superceded, yet again, by WM legislation pushed through on the nod – possibly enacting a referendum but on their terms, (e.g. excluding non-UK citizens and 16/17 year olds, or passing a revised Act of Union of the Spanish Constitution variety).

      • Her Majesty may be advised by Her Majesty’s Government to temporarily withhold Royal Assent from any Scottish Parliament legislation; the Sovereign likely deferring to the Sovereign Parliament.

      • The United Kingdom Parliament may enact emergency legislation to suspend the Scottish Parliament.

      • The MSM with the exception of one daily, which frankly preaches to the converted, will go into a war footing against it.

      • Those hell-bent on the Ulsterisation of Scottish politics will be clamouring for the drum banging, flute playing, U-J waving rent-a-mob to turn out in their droves – which they will.

      • The international community will not regard the process or outcome as legitimate.

      If anyone doubts that any of the above isn’t only possible but probable in the absence of a S30, then you must’ve been sleeping throughout 2013/14.

      The alternative?

      If no S30 is forthcoming by May 2020, then opt for a single issue SNP manifesto for the next Scottish GE in May 2021: >50% of votes cast AND >50% of MSPs returned gives a mandate to negotiate independence, to be followed by another Scottish GE within 12 months of Independence Day – Sunday, 1st of May, 2022 will do nicely.

      Thank you…and good night.

    297. Cubby says:

      Robert Knight

      If you don’t read my post then there is no point in this discussion so I have not gone any further with your post either.

      Disrespectful and a poor show. A sign of some one losing the argument.

    298. robertknight says:

      No. Just a sign of someone who believes he’s got better things to do.

      I’ll leave you with this Cubby…

      If you fail to understand what your enemies are capable of, then you’ve already lost.

    299. yesindyref2 says:

      @robertknight
      All that posting is straight out of Scotland in Union’s play book as seen below the line in the media and occasionally abover it, and also almost totally wrong – see my above postings about ROs and councils. A legal referendum in Scotland WILL go ahead, with or without an S3o Order. Not the use of the word “legal”.

      As for “unionist supporters”, there is a big difference between a supporter and a voter.

      A supporter may do what his or her party tells them to do, that takes care of way less than 100,000 people in Scotland, more like 50,000.

      Scotland has 4.1 million voters, a political party can not tell them what to do, voters will do what WE want.

      I’ve had this discussion with quite a few unionist activists.

    300. yesindyref2 says:

      typies, note not not being the important one.

    301. Breeks says:


      Cubby says:
      27 April, 2019 at 5:45 pm
      Someone who is bandying around the words illegal referendum want to define what that is.

      Still waiting for someone to show me where the SNP said they MUST have a sect 30.

      I think there are echoes of Sovereignty here… like of Sovereignty, a referendum might be totally legit and lawful, but simply not recognised as such.

      Test the Sovereignty before holding the vote, then at least you know the vote result will stand. In those circumstances a Section 30 agreement is superfluous. It’s is however a dangerous game to conflate a Section 30 Agreement as an instrument to determine sovereignty. It creates the alarming circumstance we currently see emerging… We Independentists see a Section 30 Agreement as an erosion of sovereign integrity, while the BritNat Establishment is promoting a Section 30 as a formal consent we need to secure from them. Once again, it is our weak grasp of what Sovereignty means which enables the UK Establishment to control the narrative and distort the reality.

      Time and time again we let them get away with it. WE are Sovereign, THEY are not. We do not require their permission to do anything. We are Sovereign. They however DO require our permission to Brexit and they do not have it. WE ARE SOVEREIGN.

      I have another question too…

      How does the SNP strategy for an IndyRef2 within the lifetime of this Parliament square with Ian Blackford’s repeated assertions that Scotland will not be removed from Europe against its will?

      Doesn’t that render the whole IndyRef2 and Section 30 conjecture as a contingency strategy which will only kick in if Brexit doesn’t happen? Because if Brexit does happen, Ian Blackford will lead us to freedom on a Constitutional ticket.

      TEST THE SOVEREIGNTY. Have it affirmed. Have it recognised. It will legitimise the ascendency of our democratic process much more forcefully than any paper chase Section 30 Agreement. It will also render an Independence Referendum obsolete because WE will be affirmed as in sovereign control of our Nation.

      WE decided to stay in Europe, THEY decided to leave Europe. STAND FIRM ON SOVEREIGNTY! It will deliver our freedom and keep us in Europe.

      IndyRef2 is Plan B if they don’t complete their Brexit.

    302. wull says:

      Commenting on “Nicola Sturgeon is FM for all of Scotland, hence fighting to keep us in the EU”, Rev Stu says:

      Yes, that’s exactly right – for all of SCOTLAND, not England and Wales which voted to leave the EU. Independence is the only way to keep Scotland in the EU. Her responsibility to Scotland is to achieve that.

      Bang on, Rev. Stu. Those who voted to ‘leave’ (England and Wales), we won’t block your choice to exit. In fact, we’ll give you a helping hand on your way.

      Those who voted to ‘remain’ (Scotland and Northern Ireland), let them remain. We’ll do just that. This is a democracy, and that was the result of the democratic ballot.

      Oh, you have a problem with Northern Ireland? You want them to remain in the UK and yet, unlike England and Wales, have no borders with the EU? OK, if that’s what you want, we’ll facilitate that too.

      Teresa wants her deal – Yes please, says Teresa, I want it very very much – then Teresa can have her deal.

      Oh, Teresa you don’t want Scotland to leave YOUR ‘beloved Union’ – not the real 1707 Union but that fictional one that you allowed to take over your mind, after inventing it for yourself. Well, Teresa, you can’t have that one, because it doesn’t actually exist. It’s a figment of your imagination.

      When you were a little girl you were allowed to have such figments, like fantasy friends, but now that you are PM you are supposed to love in the real world. What you can have is the old UK, the 1707-based one, back again for a little longer if you withdraw the UK from Brexiting altogether. Because that is the only way to remove the substantial change in circumstances which gives the SNP and the Scottish Government the grounds for holding another independence referendum before the Holyrood elections in 2021.

      But I have to warn you, even if you do do that, it will only keep that old UK together for another few years – not for ever.

      What? You don’t like that suggestion either? So. …. what do you like?

      I LIKE MY BREXIT, AND THE PARLIAMENT HAD BETTER LIKE IT AS WELL, AND IWANT IT DONE AND DUSTED BEFORE MAY 23rd! SO, Philip, BLOW THE WHISTLE, AND FULL STEAM AHEAD FOR ‘MAY’S BREXIT IN MAY’ – THAT’s THE ONLY AGENDA TODAY’.

      Well, Teresa, you know what you have to do, to get it …

    303. robertknight says:

      @Breeks

      Where was our “sovereignty” when the UK Parliament dragged legislation which was, with one exception, within the competence of the Scottish Parliament into the weeds of the UKSC, then scuppered it by passing conflicting legislation of its own?

      Where was our “sovereignty” when the UK Parliament passed legislation removing powers which had previously been devolved to the Scottish Parliament?

      Where was our “sovereignty” when despite 62% in Scotland having voting ‘Remain’, the UK Parliament passed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018?

      Where was our “sovereignty” back in 2013, when instead of just getting on with it, the SNP (Majority) Government felt that it was necessary to enter into the Edinburgh Agreement with the UK Government prior to holding a referendum?

      Where is this “sovereignty” that people talk about as though it’s a kind of mythril which we can put on to protect ourselves from the evils of Westminster rule? I’ve seen scant evidence of it to date, that’s for sure.

    304. Breeks says:


      robertknight says:
      28 April, 2019 at 11:11 am
      @Breeks

      Where was our “sovereignty”….

      Correct on all points Robert. If a tree falls in the forest with nobody there, does it make any sound?

      If we are satisfied to call ourselves sovereign, but in the same breath acquiesce and concede whenever that sovereignty is challenged, then who do we blame for our Sovereignty being nothing more than a notional idea?

      We ARE Sovereign. We have documented evidence that we are Sovereign. We have Westminster’s endorsement of the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people. Unfortunately we are handicapped with a Scottish population misled and indoctrinated against understanding and believing what the word “sovereign” actually means.

      Add to that the layer of deliberate ambiguity which arises when democracy is held to be the sacred superior of sovereignty. A foreign power cannot properly wield our sovereignty, but they certainly can and certainly do corrupt and manipulate our democracy. And how do we react? Ouch well, we’ll try harder next time.

      The sovereign people of Scotland said no to Brexit. The SNP should have done a “Theresa May” and dug their heels in back in 2016 that the sovereign will of Scotland was to remain. End on discussion. You have the sovereign edict of the people.

      It is us! Us Scots, who defeat ourselves over and over again by our thick headed determination to “qualify” our sovereignty with layer upon layer of British Establishment “contrivance” and ambiguity.

      The “British” Establishment and it’s propaganda wing delivers the same pigswill year after year, and time after time we lap it up.

      We are Sovereign. It’s about time we started to act like it.

    305. wull says:

      Question: ‘Where was our sovereignty when … x … y … and z?’

      Answer: ‘Where it resides: in the people of Scotland. In other words, it was where it always is.’

      In the answer, please note the word ‘resides’. It is not something that appears and disappears, that flits here and there or goes away and comes back again.

      That sovereignty is always there. It does not cease to exist just because others ignore it, or try to treat Scotland as if the Scottish people were not sovereign in Scotland. It doesn’t matter who these others are – whether the Westminster parliament, or government, or this or that political party, or indeed whatever other country you may care to think of – neither their ignorance of the fact nor any attempt they may make to suppress it can ever bring the sovereignty of the people in Scotland to an end.

      Even if a decision of the sovereign people is stymied or supposedly ‘overruled’ by someone, that simply invalidates the action of whoever did (or attempted to do) the overruling. It does not eliminate that sovereignty, as such.

      All this applies to the SNP as well, just as much as it does to any other Party that may in future govern, or attempt to govern Scotland. Whoever legitimately rules Scotland does so with an authority that inheres within the Scottish people and belongs ultimately to them, and not to anyone else.

      The people loan the use of their authority – an authority over themselves which they have of their own, because it is theirs and no one else’s – to whoever they choose to rule over them, doing so for a certain period of time, after which it returns to its true owner 9the people) and they appoint someone else as their ruler. That someone else now gets the ‘use’ of the authority for the next period of time, but all the time he or she or they use it, it still belongs to the people, who are its sole owners.

      ‘Use’ and ‘ownership’ are not the same thing.

    306. Cubby says:

      Breeks@11.56am

      “We are sovereign. It’s about time we started to act like it”. Correct – long overdue – over 300 years overdue. Yet posters like Robert Knight insist we need to go begging to Westminster for a sect 30 just because we did so 7 years ago. Sorry Robert that is cringeworthy. No doubt Robert you will not read this post as you are obviously too scared to confront statements that challenge you.

    307. Cubby says:

      Breeks@6.19am

      “Test the sovereignty”

      Sorry Breeks on the one hand you are saying in this post we need to test the sovereignty but in other posts you rightly say the claim of right was re – established in the Hof Commons. Also you say we are sovereign @11.56am so why do we need to test it.

      Scots are sovereign that’s it. The problem is that not enough of the Scots know this and some Scots who do know this still cannot shrug off their levels of cringe.

    308. Cubby says:

      Wull @12.25pm

      Absolutely spot on. Can’t add a word to this post.

    309. Breeks says:


      Cubby says:
      28 April, 2019 at 12:46 pm
      Breeks@6.19am

      “Test the sovereignty”

      By testing the Sovereignty I mean pursue a test case, a case that forces an international constitutional Court to squarely confront and address the issue of Scottish Sovereignty and determine that it MUST be recognised.

      I have said it repeatedly that we should ask the European Court of Justice to clarify it’s ruling that Revocation of Article 50 is a sovereign prerogative, with specific regard to whether Scotland, as a sovereign Nation, has its own sovereign prerogative to revoke Article 50 unilaterally.

      The ECJ presumably would not reconsider its adjudication that Article 50 revocation was a sovereign prerogative, that case was brought to the ECJ under Scots Law, so we have that immediate precedent established too, and given the ramifications of Brexit, if the ECJ recognises that Scotland is indeed a sovereign entity, and based upon our Constitution and the Claim of Right I believe it must, it becomes very difficult for the EU to deny recognition of Scottish Sovereignty when the ECJ formally does recognise it.

      I honestly believe Scotland would secure a Constitutionally based escape clause from Brexit, and both Europe and Westminster would be obliged to address their Brexit misadventure from scratch and respect the Sovereign Prerogative of Scotland to remain… as it should have been conducted from the outset.

      The beauty of this proposal is that it builds upon precedents and judgements which are already established, and while it make the Treaties of Union untenable it stops short of terminating the Union itself, but makes it thoroughly inevitable. The Union is dead, but we can still determine the nature of its expiration… a democratic ratification plebiscite.

      I cannot believe the ECJ would deliver a bizarre adjudication that would throw Scotland to the wolves. I believe instead they would rush to our assistance once we provide them with a sovereign interface to interact with our Nation.

    310. robertknight says:

      The ECJ simply recognises Scots Law as being one of three legal systems within the jurisdiction of a single EU member state. I wouldn’t stretch that to recognising the “sovereignty” of either Scotland, Northern Ireland or indeed England & Wales in this case.

      So, this “sovereignty” is something which we all apparently possess through our ability to elect those in which we entrust our collective “sovereignty”? If so, it would seem that those in Holyrood, to which we have entrusted our “sovereignty”, seem to have been a tad reluctant to exercise it of late.

      Hopefully today’s events might see that begin to change.

    311. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hopefully this will add strength to conviction. British nationalism is unable to accommodate the principle of universal human rights. Instead, British nationalism demand Scots relinquish their embedded sovereignty. An impossible feat in a rational world of scientific law and order.

      THE PARADOX OF SOVEREIGNTY:
      AUTHORITY, CONSTITUTION, AND POLITICAL BOUNDARIES

      https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-07282010-164656/unrestricted/Whitt2.pdf



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