Repeating ourselves
Posted on
November 09, 2012 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
As with any long campaign, we’re a bit worried that we might have to spend the next two years saying the same things over and over again, because the main Unionist tactic seems to be to keep asking questions after they’ve been answered a hundred times. That said, when you’ve got your hands full with domestic mini-crises (as we’ve had all this week), it can be quite useful to have already covered the day’s main topics and be able to just point people at the archives before rushing off to fight the latest fire.
- On Ian Davidson moaning this morning about the “biased” referendum question.
- On Alastair Darling tonight joining the ranks of those in the Unionist camp who think being “foreign” is axiomatically a bad thing.
- And on Michael Moore yesterday promising new powers if Scotland votes No.
If we don’t have a heart attack before then, see you tomorrow.
.
‘Domestic’ can be shite. I hope everything works itself out.
Re my last post. I’m still voting NO if i can’t enjoy Joy Division.
I know what you mean, Stu, but the converse is also true. If WE don’t keep countering the lies, then some people will believe that the pro-dependents must be right after all. They may be the differences between winning and losing. (I hope s_s is right in his prediction, but I want every possible vote out on the day)
That being said, if we are trying to get new visitors to this site (amongst others) so that they can have their eyes opened to the truth, doesn’t this mean being constant in refuting the lies and distortion coming at us on a daily (hourly?) basis. Even if this means repeating things everything every few weeks.
It is sad, but true, that this will continue up to the White paper, then there will be a solid piece of work to refer to.
Keep the faith – Hail Alba
Aye, if new readers keep coming in at the rate they did last month it won’t hurt to direct them to stuff they’ve missed in the past.
Maybe a persistent set of links in the sidebar? –
‘On Unionist positions’
question bias
is foreign bad by def
jam tomorrow
etc…
We already have a Reference section:
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/ongoing/
It might be worth expanding it into a sort of FAQ.
I’m rather uncomfortable that Alastair Darling (and the Labour party if he’s stating their general position as it appears) considers my wife and half my extended family ‘foreigners’ in a seemingly negative way. Presumably he therefore thinks my daughter is some sort of half breed? British nationalism borders a little to close to racism at times for my liking.
I wonder what all the European citizens living in Scotland think of this? My wife was used to it from the Tories, but now Labour too? Must be making people feel nervous about coming to the UK, what with Labour’s talk of British jobs for British workers etc too.
Relax. That’s the key word right now. Let them come up with their scare stories-that’s all they have.
I’m convinced that they’re trying desparately to get the SNP to show their hand too early. We need to inform the masses, and build it up over the next two years. Hence the reason why they were desparate to have an early referendum i.e. to keep those who aren’t politically interested ignorant of the truth.
The white paper will just be start. The YES campaign will then unleash specific details of what we can achieve, that will resonate with the average Joe on the street. Only then will the polls start to move. The Union-RIP!
“British music will no longer be our music.” So you cannot listen to it? What is the man havering about? What is British music anyway? I know of no such genre. Must be a non-specific generic name for any music that comes from the British island, which it still will be. A silly, silly man.
RAM
Relax. That’s the key word right now. Let them come up with their scare stories-that’s all they have.
Yes, that’s about the sum of it.
Anyhoo, regarding this ‘British culture’ thingy. Is that haggis, tartan, burns night, Hogmanay, the Proclaimers, Corries, Runrig etc? Must admit I’ve never seen a haggis with a union jack label on it.
Personally, I’m generally fine with being Scottish, British (from the British isles / United Kingdoms), European, Earthish and milky-wayish. Going to vote for an end to Westminster rule in Scotland though. Most of the other bits of ‘British’ are fine for me; just that wee bit I’ve gripes with.
@s_s, Do you reckon someone from the Yes campaign is going to bring the subject up, because the rhetoric at least strongly implies that they see foreigners as been a negative thing? They obviously don’t have the self-awareness to have recognised how this looks.
The Better together arguments are in here somewhere.
http://bettertogether.net/press/entry/jp-macintosh-lecture
@cynicalHighlander
I cannot face reading your link. Is there an appearance of that much talked about, and seemingly fabled thing, the positive case for the union? Or is it just the usual tired cliches, scaremongering about independence, supporting tradition and masking it as Better Together?
What Darling has inadvertently done is reveal the deep down, subconcious concensus that Britishness is effectively Englishness and vice versa.
If Britishness was actually all inclusive of all British Isles culture, then his comment makes no sense at all because assuming it was divisible as he is clearly arguing, then we get to keep all the British culture that just happens to come from Scotland. So the loss isn’t complete at all.
Of course, he’s arguing the opposite because from his jingoistic unionist, London centric viewpoint, Britishness isn’t divisible and it’s actually a grandiose image of England that is wholly owned & perpetuated mostly by people in England.
Recent research I did into the true causes of WW1 revealed the same confusion of terminology by the German & Austrian-Hungarian Empires who used England & Britain almost randomly but obviosuly in reference to the same idiological & geographical place. That juxtaposition of names exists today; French or German newspapers frequently refers to The British as Les Anglais or Der Engländer ( I hope my German is correct).
In a wider context, culture isn’t divisible at all; it has roots of course, born of someone, somewhere but today it could be of a Spaniard in Poland or a Mexican in Canada or whatever. The old sense that culture was geographically specific and fixed and had boundaries is old fashioned and I believe inaccurate anyway.
Darling also reveals his tactic or focusing on hearts rather than minds, hoping to resonate with those unable to think for themselves. The propaganda is no different from that used to recruit millions of hopelessly optimistic young men to go over the top to save the King’s Imperial glory in 1914.
While the military apparatus of the Empire has long ago been melted down to make shoddily built British cars & machine tools that most people learned they didn’t want or deserve, Darling proves that there remains even today, a hard core of unionists, who just cannot come to terms with the fact that the idea of a United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, that most definitive symbol of the glorious, British Empire is about to exhale its terminal breath.
One final point Mr. Darling. You need to take lessons in branding. Millions of us feel emotionally connected to all sorts of things, peoples & ideas, usually from somewhere else. I-Phones are American. BMW’s are Bavarian and my TV was made by a guy in Taiwan. But you know what? I don’t care. What these things do is stimulate an emotional hotbutton and I like most of us, spend ages justifying the money I spent on them. I am but one of a shared culture that transcends geographic and political boundaries and none of the things I just mentioned can be divided even though they weren’t made in Scotland.
As an educated man, you should be able to grasp this but then again, maybe you can’t because at the end of the day, yer just an old duffer.
@muttley79
I tried and failed as it just appeared to be utter waffle.
Haud on a minute. RE the whole ‘British Music’ culture thing…
Geri Halliwell looked no bad in that union jack get up back in the day. Will that fond memory be erased from me if we go independent?
Surely it cannae be; Mrs SS is a fan o Celine Dion and Celine bein one o they ‘foreigners’ disnae stop Mrs SS drivin me nuts playin her live fae Paris n that.
Personally, methinks Darling is just in a panic at seeing his comfy life with that cushy salary, nice free pad in London free travel, posh dinners and assorted expenses going up in smoke. Aye, ‘Lord Darling, Baron of Colinton’ is looking further and further out of reach each day…
No change there then. The disadvantage of a two year campaign is having to listen to Captain Darling and his ilk for that length of time.
“Is there an appearance of that much talked about, and seemingly fabled thing, the positive case for the union? Or is it just the usual tired cliches, scaremongering about independence, supporting tradition and masking it as Better Together?”
Take a wild stab.
“cynicalHighlander”,
I have just read that lecture of Alastair Darlings thanks for the link, and I sincerely hope they had a medical team there to revieve the audience afterwards, it was just the same old shite in the same old negative manner, they have nothing to offer but old worn-out scare storys.
Vote yes, Vote Scotland.
If we are all British, why are talks between the US and the UK called Anglo/US talks?
And the Anglo-Irish Agreement, 1985.
I spend loads of time in France (in addition to world travel with work) with Mrs SS’s friends and family. Never met one person who asked if I was British. Seems the only people who call themselves British are the British. For the rest of the world, it’s English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish etc.
@Muttley
I think the borderline racism of the britnats is clear enough for people to see without anyone from Yes needing to point it out.
Alastair Darling’s speech in 10 lines.
1. I’m not going to promise any jam tomorrow after a no vote.
2. Scotland will be a closed inward looking place after independence.
3. All your friends and family in England will turn into foreigners.
4. England will still be Britain after you leave and you won’t be part of it.
5. Scotland will lose international influence as an independent country.
6. Your BBC replacement will be shite.
7. Someone will probably invade Scotland as an independent country
8. Continuing to use Sterling will make you a lot worse off than you are now.
9. You won’t be able to trade with England due to trade barriers.
10. Sterling and the Bank of England are England’s property not Britain’s.
@s_s, Unfortunately the propaganda campaign of the media, and big and small Conservatism over decades in Scotland, has probably resulted in a lot of people not even identifiying, let alone thinking about, this particular strand of British nationalism. The media in Scotland, when they mention nationalism, invariably mean Scottish not British nationalism. In fact, British nationalism is almost the great unspeakable subject and topic of the debate.
I tried to read the speech, but gave up after the fourth or fifth time he said, “We will make a positive case …” but then failed to do so. If I feel the courage on the morra, I will tried to plough through it and dissect it. unless the Rev. does it first. (Pretty please?)
Muttley
There is a good reason the unionists are in a panic.
Come referendum day, the best that they can hope to get a ‘No’ out of are the firm status quo people, ergo about 30% of the electorate.
The Yes campaign can rely on the same (or a little more) who will definitely go out and vote yes come hell or high water.
What about the other 30% (you’ll never get a 100% turnout and 90% would be incredible)? The Devo maxers? They will not vote No; that would be voting against much of what they want and they don’t trust Westminster one inch. If they did, they’d not be after devo max. Nope, they’ll either stay at home if they bottle it or they’ll go out and standing in that booth take a big deep breath and vote yes. After all, it’s what they want, they’re just nervous of what the implications might be so are trying to be pragmatic and seek a half-way house. However, what harm can one more yes vote do? After all, it’s only one vote…
If a pollster wants to predict the result of the referendum, they just need to ask ‘In an ideal world, would you like Scotland to be independent but maintaining a good relationship with the rest of the UK?’ That will give you easily 60-65% yes.
That’s why the goal of the unionists has always been to prevent a referendum, for if one were to happen, chances are they’d lose. The chance of them losing has grown with every year that passes; hence the need for devolution to try and buy more delaying time. If 1997 had been a straight Y/N, we’d already be independent.
Darling’s linking of music and Britishness will surely be extended to the consequences of Scotland’s potential ‘separation’ from the EU if we become independent. Can we expect him, at some point in his speech, to belt out that Harry Nilsson classic:
‘I can’t live, if living is without EU’.
Just saw this reported
Peaceful independence supporters ejected for raising saltires at better together lecture in prestonpans. End london rule t-shirts spotted
Despite admitting Scotland could financially stand on its own two feet post Independence, Darling’s speech can be summed in three POSITIVE arguments.
1. You wont be British or have any claim to Britishness anymore (Despite remaining part of the British Isles)
2. You wont have the same influence over foreigners anymore, especially in Europe (Even though Unionist parties are all agreed in unilaterally distancing UK from Europe, starting with slashing the EU budget)
3. You’ll run a deficit which you can’t affford. UK will also run a deficit but that’s not a problem because the Fraser of Allander Institute says so (Using an unfathomable explanation which mentions fiscal flows within a unified fiscal system because of the higher needs in nine of the 12 nations and regions of the UK ???) Eh, what?
He did find time to bleat about the dreadful situation (I paraphrase here) where someone’s mum lives in Oxford while their Granny lives in Oban which would make them foreigners.
So, er, well, that’s it.
Place yer bets.
Seems that Danny Alexander has been manipulating the figures:
http://www.scottishtimes.com/westminster_scottish_economy
BBC in more trouble over Newsnight child abuse claims. Couldn’t happen to a Better Bunch of Chancers!
Full apology on Newsnight tonight.
OK – I’m a child of the 70’s, and a product of punk. Now Punk was a phenomenon of the islands of Britain and Ireland, driven by societal changes in some cities in the UK, but enthusiastically taken up by many others across these small isles. The Clash, the Jam were London, the Buzzcocks Bolton, the Boom Town Rats Dublin, Stiff Little Fingers and the Undertones Belfast, the Alarm North Wales, the Rezillos Edinburgh, Simple Minds Glasgow (though I first saw them as Johnnie and the Self Abusers at an art School gig in 78). And who can foreget Alness’s finest the Tools, or Inverness’s the Hormones.
And Punk was a product of a pretty fractured and dysfunctional UK at that time, NI was in the middle a civil war (and is it not interesting that it was the Nationalist youth there who most enthusiastically embraced New Wave), the SNP in Scotland was at the peak of their 70’s boom (11 MP’s, over 30% of the popular vote), there was a fringe of the English right wing talking up a military coup, whilst the country was crippled by strikes and was effectively dysfunctional.
However a common protest music thrived, from the slums of an Ireland still ruled by the Catholic Church, the emerging city state of London, an industrial England on the brink of collapse, and Scottish cities undergoing boom, bust and boredom.
Yet apart from the NME, the three TV channels and Punk, I’m not clear what else linked kids in London, Bolton, Derry and North Sutherland. Now I’m pretty sure that Alastair Darling never pogoed with the best of us, but to say that post independence Music from the rest of the British Isles will be lost to us, indeed we will be forbidden to listen to it, or even to contribute to the shared culture of our Atlantic Islands, is just silly. Its like saying that you can only be American to be allowed to enjoy R&B, or Country and Western, or Rock and Roll. Oh and who is the odd one out here – Celine Dion, Neil Young or Lou Reed – none, they are all Canadian….
And more importantly it will be seen as pretty silly to kids like one of my sons, active in SNP Student politics, but obsessed with the Manchester Music scene of the 80’s.
Its all like the Emperors new clothes, it just takes a few folk to say – what on earth are you talking about, its all keech………….
Then it all comes tumbling down.
I have just started to build my secret bunker under the stairs to hold my Beatles and Stones LPs.
I will have to listen to them in private after 2014, as I am sure a certain Labour atavist will be along shortly to tell us that secret agents from the Jimmy Shand society will be monitoring households in Scotland and confiscating any British music found on the premises.
My only question to Alister Darling is “do you think my Scottish citizenship will be revoked if I am caught red handed listening to British material”
Thanks to those who were able to deciper ‘that’ speech(insert applicable) being dislexic reading that sort of rambling takes dedication and a looooong time so thanks again.
As Darling is/was unable to know where he lives how can anyone take him seriously except the MSM and party hardliners. The following taken from wiki.
Alistair Darling (Chancellor of the Exchequer/Labour, Edinburgh South West) – changed the designation of his second home four times in four years, allowing him to claim for the costs of his family home in Edinburgh, and to buy and furnish a flat in London including the cost of stamp duty and other legal fees. Darling said that “the claims were made within House of Commons rules”.[57][62] On 1 June 2009 the Telegraph published further allegations suggesting that the Chancellor claimed parliamentary expenses for two properties at the same time[63] a claim that a spokeswoman later said was “wrong”.[64]
@cynical highlander
Alastair Darling is such a mouthful to say, so from now on I’m just calling him “Flipper”.
@Jeannie
Flipper was a darling.
scottish_skier
I can’t see devo-max people voting no either. To want more powers means they are already aware of many of the issues, more than the status quo voters perhaps. They probably want – different – powers to achieve their aims or purposes. They just didn’t want the whole thing of Independence.
So I guess their main problem is to consider the extra things that Independence provides over Devo-Max, and decide if they don’t like that. And then compare the status quo position, and decide how important those extra powers were to them. And then decide which is the lesser evil: to have all that full Indy stuff which includes the extra powers they want, or not to have those extra powers – taxation, full fiscal autonomy, ummm, whatever devo-max would have been, and not to have to have all the other stuff Indy brings.
To those of us supporting Indy the answer is obvious, but for them they need more information – I guess defence, currency, EU or EEA, etc.
Mmm. not much more I can say!
I like German music. Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Mahler and Wagner in particular.
Do I have to move to Bonn or something?
What no more Jedward?
Where do we sign!
Anyone been out on the streets recently ? Because every three out of e very four people i’ve asked about Independence have said NO. “The SNP are as bad as the Tory’s etc, etc.”
They don’t read internet blogs or any of these boards. A lot of them don’t even have a computer or dont want one. What they do have is the BBC (Scotland and England) and STV and the daily redtops. I now find myself having to explain to people the difference between the Unionist Argument but unfortunately have not got a shred of evidence from the SNP to dispute darling Darling’s list of things the SNP are not telling them about.
When are the SNP going to answer some of these questions because i’m not going to try anymore. Are they in “their secret bunker” ?
@deewal
The White paper in November 2013 is obviously a critical document. Until then – I assume it will be sent to every household in Scotland, as well as available online – the SNP/Scottish government DO NOT have a media outlet that will allow them unbiased platform. So they are playing a long game. I too can find it frustrating, but I am thinking that the long game is to allow the no side of pro-dependents to shoot their bolt now, and in the final year running up to the referendum, what will they have left to say?
It doesn’t seem to help today, but if a week is a long time in politics, then two years is an eternity. Better to keep your powder dry for the final important push, and not waste it now.
Keep referring people here and the other worthy sites. Keep the faith. Independence will be worth the effort.
From the lecture by Darling [disclaimer – those of a nervous disposition, look away now. Apologies for the length of the post]:
The title of my lecture this evening is “Better Together” [which will be repeated ad infenitum]
Those of us who believe it is best for Scotland to be part of the UK – from whatever political view – will work together to argue for the better, stronger choice. [And here it is … erm. no it isn’t]
Americans don’t take two years to elect their President. But that’s where we are and we now have to engage. [Erm, no we aren’t – we are NOT electing anyone]
So, tonight I want to set out the positive case for remaining in the United Kingdom – for I believe it is a positive and compelling one. [And it is? Oh, not yet then]
If we vote for independence it’s irrevocable … Remember this. They only have to win once. [That’s the majority of the voters? THEY! Sounds like you don’t like democracy, Mr D]
The Scotland I want to live in, the Scotland I want our children and their children to live in as an open, ambitious, confident country. [Do we need the Union for that to happen?]
Now our case is not that Scotland cannot survive as a separate state. Of course it could. Most countries could. The question is what is best for Scotland. [And your answer is?]
We are a proud nation within a larger state with the far wider range of opportunities for our people that this creates. [Well as a European citizen, there are far more opportunities there. So why is the UK so important to Scots? And WHY do Scots have to leave to further their opportunities? Why aren’t they is Scotland?]
We are being asked to make this choice in the midst of the most uncertain and turbulent economic times we’ve seen in our lifetimes. That I’m afraid is likely to last for some time yet. [And whose fault is that?]
It is a difficult world and independence is an inadequate response. [So you propose what to help Scotland?]
Think of all the big questions the world is challenged by and then ask yourself: to which of those questions is Scottish Independence the answer? [And to which is the Union the answer?]
I believe the last thing Scotland needs are new areas of uncertainty, instability and division that separation will involve. [And what are the certainties in the Union? More privatization of the NHS, Education? Less social welfare for the poorest and most disadvantaged in our society? A stagnant economy? Is THAT good for Scotland?]
Let me tell you about the three compelling arguments that make the case that we are Better Together. Firstly, there are the cultural, social and family ties that bind this country. [Which will remain after Independence]
If we decide to go it alone, everything will change. [Well, what will change is that Scotland decides things for itself, and we get rid of Westminster and the “Politicians” like you. That’s what will change, everything else is fluffery]
If we decide to go it alone, everything will change. … The Nationalists desperately try to play this down – that’s why they are keeping the monarchy, at least for now. And then, after 20 years opposition, they want to join NATO, or at least they might do. [Well are you saying that Labour never changed? What about Clause 4? As Keynes said, when the facts change, I change my opinion, what do YOU do?]
If you are no longer part of the UK how can you be British? [Erm., because the UK is NOT Britain?]
Apart from meaning that your friends in Wales, your family in England and your workmates from Northern Ireland will, effectively and overnight, become foreigners [well, technically yes. but SO WHAT? Are you afraid of “foreigners”?]
British music will no longer be our music. British art, dance and drama will no longer be ours. British sporting success will be someone else’s to celebrate. Here’s a thought: why can’t we be both Scottish and British? [Please! Pathetic statement. Scotland is part of the Island of Britain. De facto it will still be “British”. At the moment I am Scottish, British (by geography), European (through EU law). Why do you have a problem with that?]
We can feel Scottish and British and we are entirely comfortable with that. This is something that the nationalists totally fail to grasp. [No, it’s something the pro-dependents can’t get their heads around]
Our shared culture and our shares history is a real strength. All of us have friends and family south of the border. There are innumerable people in England who value their ties with Scotland in the same way. [Why should that change after independence?]
It is artificial to construct separate states within our small island. [It was artificial in 1707 to create one state out of two. Look at history around the world, should all the 198 independent countries NOT be independent? Or is it only Scotland that should remain a dependent nation?]
We built the Welfare State together. [Which Westminster is trying to demolish, and the SNP is preserving]
We would not have achieved half as much had we not been the United Kingdom advancing together. [trite statement – some facts or evidence please]
Take the BBC which has a profound influence on our culture and not only how we see ourselves but also on how others see us. [Please take the BBC out of Scotland – it is a biased and unionist mouthpiece.]
Does anyone really imagine a separate Scottish broadcaster working with a fraction of the budget available to the BBC would seek to match its diversity and the extent of its output. [I do, as ALL the money raised in Scotland could be spent in Scotland]
my second key strand of the Better Together argument – and that is the influence we wield as part of the UK. [Oh dear]
the United Kingdom is a country with unique influence not only in the EU, and in the Commonwealth but in the G20 group of the world’s most powerful economies. [But where is Scotland’s voice in these institutions? No where, subsumed by Westminster/ London/SE England centered myopia]
We’re one of only five countries from 198 in the world who have a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council. [NOW WE HAVE IT. You’re afraid of losing your place to posture on the “top tables”. Awww, shame]
We have the fourth largest defence budget in the world [Is this something to boast about?]
We’re one of the biggest donors of aid to the World Bank with huge influence. Why give that up? [Why would independence change that? Scots are generous people, that is unlikely to change]
We have Embassies around the world serving our citizens and our businesses… Scots who find themselves in trouble in a far flung part of the world can rely on the UK embassy to help them out. To the businesses seeking trade. They open doors for our people and businesses across the globe. [Well, if you have aver been in trouble overseas, I regret that the embassies are not particularly helpful. As for Scottish business, what about the charges for promoting whisky?]
Scotland is far better represented abroad as part of the UK than we could ever hope to be as a separate state. [nonsense]
And the economic arguments are fundamental. [This should be fun]
Our argument isn’t that Scotland couldn’t go it alone. We could. We would though be very heavily dependent on revenues from North Sea oil which are notoriously volatile. [What about whisky, tourism, new technology, renewable energy, the 340,000 SMEs, the financial sector, the arts, sport – Scotland is not only about Oil]
The Nationalists have made other claims too saying that Scotland would be £510 better off per person under independence. That figure assumes that the Barnet formula will still be in place. It would die with independence. [Well of course Barnet would die, Scotland would have ALL its revenue, and not the pocket money Westminster decides it should have]
Exactly the same argument applies to our ability to build a social union, where people on low incomes – no matter where they live in the UK – can be supported and offered the opportunities they need. The minimum wage is a classic example of this. [which the current Westminster government, and Labour in Scotland want to dismantle]
The UK is the world’s oldest and most successful single market. Europe has worked for over 50 years to create a market without borders for goods and services. Why on earth would we want to turn our biggest market into our biggest competitor? [are you suggesting that England would no longer buy Scottish products? Is that an economic threat, or just blusterer?]
Our economic success has been built on a single market. If it didn’t exist, we’d have to invent it. We depend on it. [And Westminster’s attitude to the ‘single European market’ is what, exactly?]
Let me take one example. In the Financial Services industry there is a single UK regulatory regime. [Indeed, and look what YOUR lack of regulation did. Thanks for that]
Inevitably there is a cost here: uncertainty will damage business. [That must be why Scotland has more FDI that anywhere outside London, and its SME market rose 10% in the last year. All those ‘worried’ businesses]
Four years ago Scotland’s banks were on the brink of collapse. A calamity made in Edinburgh, not in London. [Trying to rewrite history? By the way, the rot started in England – Northern Rock – and anyway, these are international companies, only Scottish through their origins. I would suggest that the banking collapse WAS indeed made in London. Poor regulation and a casino attitude to the sector]
The size and strength of the UK meant that we could stop that with the Scottish tax payers carrying only a small part of the cost. [No, it meant that Scotland would have had to take its SHARE, approximately 5%. Did the UK government shore up the USA arms of these banks? NO it did not, the Fed did]
The cost to the UK of supporting the banks during the financial crisis has been about 21% of our GDP. The comparative figure for Scotland would have been 211% of GDP. [No, the figure would have been actually smaller due to the operation of the banks being 95% outwith Scotland]
Currency now – Why should the rest of the UK agree to a currency union without being asked ? [because it makes sense? And would be in rUK’s best interests, at least in the short term. Or would you want to cut off your nose to spite your face? It is certainly beginning to sound that way]
A currency union in the UK would need a set of rules. Both sides would have to agree to each other’s budgets. One country couldn’t go off and do its own thing. [No not in detail, but certainly within agreed limits. The Euro problem that Darling alludes to was created mainly due to the economic cycle of the members being polar opposites,. The Sterling currency zone idea does not suffer from that, certainly initially. So, another straw man argument]
Today we are equal partners in the United Kingdom. Today we can determine fiscal and monitory policy for the whole of the United Kingdom as we sit at the table as equals. [Hahahaha. Try telling that to Scots, Irish, Northern English etc. Policy is determined for the City and the SE England]
And then there’s the Bank of England which sets interest rates for the rest of the UK. The Monetary Policy Committee is not regionally or constituency based. [see above]
a relationship with the European Union is of critical importance to us. The Commissioner and many others believe we’d have to reapply for membership. Politics will play an important part here too. [No, I don’t think he did. But you are right, it will be a political decision. Do you REALLY think that the EU will not want a net contributor with massive energy resources and a strong economy IN the European Union? They are not like you, willing to suffer just to spite the Scots]
The Spanish government and others have made it clear that we’d be at the back of the queue. [No they haven’t, and anyway, it is not their decision]
Would we have to join the Euro – every other new applicant has had to undertake to do so including Sweden? [And why haven’t the EU “insisted” that Sweden joins even after -what is it now, 20 years? Erm. maybe because they can’t]
If the UK breaks up, how do you divvy up the assets and liabilities like pensions, for example. [Through negotiation, but on a per capita basis appears to be the consensus]
And their campaign is hopelessly divided. [No, we all want Independence. What is open to discussion is what happens afterwards. Because once the big prize is won, it will be SCOTS that decide, and not Westminster]
And how can we be sure any longer that official Scottish government documents are impartial and accurate with all we now know [How can we be sue that Westminster/Unionist documents are impartial and accurate? See recent press reports]
It is incumbent on both sides to present the people of Scotland with cold hard facts [You meant just like you HAVEN’T?]
So, Mr Darling, in all this puffery where was the positive message? Where are these facts to support Scotland’s continued dependency on Westminster whim? It seems nowhere in THIS speech
Separate Scotland, from it’s iconography,… then it’s music,… then you shall be an English vassal state, actually, we still are,….Alistair Darling is simply,… a scoundrel, one of many, still in our Nation, this time we will free ourselves of English rule….the wonderful conversation has begun, the world is already fascinated , fighting against the odds has always been our story, what a fabulous conversation….Political Freedom!! YES !!
Hope you don’t mind Stu….Here is my article on Darlings speech.
http://auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/alistair-darling-please-can-we-make-it-up/
Thanks Aplinal.
@cynical highlander
I think we should have a competition to give Flipper some dialogue.
What’s that you say, Flipper? Scotland will get kicked out of the EU but will still have to be join the Euro?……. and we’ll be invaded by Outer Mongolia? ………..and we’ll be like North Korea and be cut off from our family and friends? …………..and forced to listen to songs by Foreigner?
What’s that you’re singing, Flipper? ………”Better Together, yeah, yeah, yeah………”
Closing credits and song:
“They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning. No one you see flips faster than he
And we know Flipper, Flipper just has to wonder, if they rip us asunder no peerage for he”
“Political Freedom!! YES !!”
Keep taking the tartan tablets, Ken.
The unionist use of emotional ‘British culture’ stuff is a waste of time. The only people that sort of stuff appeals too are going to vote No anyway. Darling et al. don’t seem to see this, presumably because they refuse to countenance anything but the union in the same way we have independence supporters who feel the identically about independence.
Those that will decide the vote are not firmly camped on either side and for them it is primarily political. They must make the decision whether they want the Scottish parliament running everything or neo-liberals from the SE of England doing this. They have already made this decision by supporting devo max. However, this stop-gap half way house ‘feartie’ option is no longer open to them. This is why they will not vote No, but either abstain or vote Yes.
Flag waving and emotion will play a role, but only in helping the Yes camp for the primary identity of the vast majority in Scotland is Scottish. Attachment to ‘British’ as an identity varies, but overall Scottish dominates ahead of British in majority. While there is cultural attachment to ‘British’, ‘Political British’ feeling, i.e. the wish for Westminster rule is very weak, and that’s the key.
@Adrian B,
“What no more Jedward”?
Jedward are an interesting example. They are Irish, of course and, whilst retaining their Irish identity, they have been ‘adopted’ by the British, albeit for many people as an object of ridicule. They are one of a number of Irish bands/celebrities in recent decades of whom this could be said – i.e. the ‘adopted’ bit not the ‘ridiculed’ bit, at least not in most cases!
It’s a mixed bunch and includes, among others, the Nolan Sisters, The Undertones, Boomtown Rats, Terry Wogan, U2, Val Doonican, Rory Gallagher, Boyzone, James Galway, Van Morrison, Graham Norton, Thin Lizzy, Westlife and numerous others.
If you’re Alastair Darling, there’s a tough choice here. Either the British should have shunned these Irish bands/celebrities and certainly not ‘adopted’ them in the first place or, before ‘adopting’ them, the British should have demanded that Ireland give up its independence and re-join the UK. You have to admit, this is a real brain-teaser.
Aye, we’ll all be foreigners – just like the Irish http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/41/section/2
I look upon everything on the computer as not real life but as entertainment even though some issues are about real life. Real life is everything that happens away from the keyboard and it is worth mentioning that the keyboard sometimes makes real life more bearable.
He came at us in the same old way – we’ll see him off in the same old way
If this is the best that the best of ‘Better together? – NO’ can come up with, then surely Scottish freedom is assured?!
And as an aside – at the rate things are going, there will be very little of the BBC left for Captain Darling to hang his cap on by 2014.