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Wings Over Scotland


Quoted for sense

Posted on January 29, 2014 by

The media is positively jumping with analyses of Mark Carney’s much-anticipated speech about currency unions, with thousands of words being expended to discuss something we’ve already summed up accurately in eleven. It’s almost comical to watch the amount of anti- (and very occasionally pro-) independence spin being put on a text which went pathologically out of its way not to make any kind of judgement whatsoever on the subject.

(Something Carney continued to do at the post-speech Q&A with journalists, at which he frequently looked bemused as a series of political hacks asked him massively leading questions along the lines of “So, you said X…” which he then had to wearily but firmly point out he hadn’t actually said at all. If you click the image below you can listen to an audio recording of the session.)

carneyconf

However much of an awful grump he is, the best, most sensible and balanced analysis (okay, the second-best after ours) is probably David Torrance’s.

“As a Canadian, Governor Carney was obviously aware of the sensitivity surrounding constitutional debates, and he began by making it clear he wasn’t going to address the pros and cons of independence; that wasn’t his remit. Nevertheless, a lot of what he said in his speech was of obvious importance to the referendum debate.

The fact he was making the speech at all implicitly conceded that a currency union in the event of independence is perfectly possible, which puts Carney at odds with the UK Government (which has given a rather different impression). But that isn’t to say it would all be plain sailing, and indeed that formed the substance of Carney’s short but lucid speech. 

[…]

It was a balanced and carefully pitched speech, so much so that both the Yes and No camps were quick to claim victory. Better Together’s Alistair Darling blogged that the Governor’s comments ‘quietly demolishe[d] Alex Salmond’s claim that Scotland could keep the UK pound after leaving the UK’ (it didn’t, just said there would be strings attached), while Yes Scotland tweeters argued that what Carney said was largely in line with the Scottish Government’s own Fiscal Commission (not completely, there were also important differences).”

Click the quote to read the whole thing. Seems about right to us.

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    161 to “Quoted for sense”

    1. jingly jangly says:

      Has anybody done an analysis of what would happen if we just walked away, and continued using sterling like the Irish? We would not have any debt.

      Im sure Mr Salmond has friends in high places in China who could arrange some loans at a good rate so that we could smooth out any issues with cash flow for the first couple of years.

    2. Susan S says:

      BBC radio 2 already reporting that MP’s in Westminster are pleased about the ‘hammer blow’ to Scotland’s plans for a currency union. Good greif.

    3. Gillie says:

      Note the difference.

      Pro-independence quietly pleased.

      Anti-independence loudly agitated.

    4. G H Graham says:

      Question for Flipper Darling.

      If Scotland is denied a currency union with rUK, is no longer British, thrown out of the EU & becomes a successor (new) state as has been claimed by Better Together ad nauseum, can we then conclude that Scotland will regain full sovereign independence with zero sovereign debt & keep every single pound of tax that is currently collected in/via Scotland by the Treasury?

    5. FMQunofficial says:

      For those who are interested in catching up. I’ve uploaded the video version in full to YouTube.

    6. Jimbo says:

      I think a monetary union with Norway would be more beneficial to us than a grudged monetary union with a country that constantly belittles us and wants to put obstacles in our way.

    7. Paul says:

      Why doesn’t Alex call their bluff and say OK we will set up our own currency. At the end of the day we don’t want a mini me UK. We truly want our independence with the choice which that brings. For the Scottish people to be truly sovereign then we need further referenda on the currency, the monarchy and whether we stay in Europe or not or what is the point.

    8. Juteman says:

      Flippers blinking is getting worse.
      The poor man should go and have a lie down.

    9. Tinyzeitgeist says:

      Despite all the huffing and puffing by the unionist blowhards, perhaps they ought to reflect on the RUK position if Scotland was not in a Sterling currency union. I suspect that the RUK economy would be in serious trouble without our oil, whisky, food and other exports, not to mention the tax take from Scotland. Time will tell, but I would expect a currency union to be no more than a temporary arrangement given the historical mismanagement of the UK economy, and it doesn’t look as though things are likely to improve given the serious structural imbalances that exist at the moment. The much vaunted recovery is built on sand.

    10. Tattie-bogle says:

      just in the door any links to Darling getting carted of in a straight jacket and foaming out the mouth

    11. Jimbo says:

      Had Mark Carney come here to tell us that there will be no monetary union, you could just imagine Alistair Darling, Alistair Carmichael, Blair McDougall et al. punching the air with glee that a future independent Scotland had been dealt a blow.

    12. Murray McCallum says:

      Better Together’s Alistair Darling blogged that the Governor’s comments “quietly demolishe[d] Alex Salmond’s claim that Scotland could keep the UK pound after leaving the UK”

      Yet more evidence as to why Alistair Darling was a complete disaster as Chancellor of the Exchequer.

      He seems incapable of listening to details and expert opinion seems to pass through the void between his ears.

    13. Ken500 says:

      Darling has lost it!

    14. wee162 says:

      Am I the only one reading this in a different way from pretty much everyone I’ve heard?
      “In short,” concluded Carney, “a durable, successful currency union requires some ceding of national sovereignty.” Now although the Scottish Government doesn’t dispute this point (it has long acknowledged that an independent Scotland would “pool” sovereignty with external bodies), it remains a rather crucial one, for Carney was strongly hinting that not only would Scotland’s monetary policy remain in the hands of the Bank of England, but a degree of fiscal flexibility – say over spending and borrowing – would also be ceded to the rUK in order to ensure the currency union actually worked.

      People seem to be awfully convinced this is referring to Scotland only. Doesn’t that suggest that both an independent Scotland and rUK would both be losing bits of their sovereignty? If there’s tight fiscal rules for Scotland, the same would apply south of us as well. And when you look at how Westminster spends money with the printing presses as back up, that suggests to me a bit of a warning shot across their bows as well.

      Basically what I think is happening here is that Carney is pushing for greater control over the economy from the Bank Of England. And he’s going to use Scottish independence as the way to force that through.

      I for one am pretty uncomfortable with that. And it’s fair to point out that I’m pretty agnostic about a currency union in the first place. I would absolutely prefer the decoupling of the economies and us heading towards a completely independent currency at some point soon after independence. That’s an argument for later on though.

      Another thought on the currency issue is that the Scottish Government could crash Sterling instantly by saying that if this isn’t resolved quickly and to their satisfaction the plan B is to use the currency on a short interim basis before moving to an independent currency (which I’d be astonished if it isn’t). It’s absolutely in the Governor of the BoE to make sure that doesn’t happen.

    15. MajorBloodnok says:

      As Peter A Bell is always saying (paraphrase) “Becoming independent is different from being independent.” Steady as she goes for the next eight months (and subsequently to March 2016) and then I’m all for the Scotch poond, Euro, Kroner or whatever.

    16. muttley79 says:

      When did Darling have it? 😀

    17. kalmar says:

      PM on Radio 4 just covered this, usually good for a fair treatment, though I missed most of it.

    18. Scott says:

      I have just heard a BT party broadcast from Darling on the news he was getting so worked up I thought they would have to send for the men in white coats.

    19. MajorBloodnok says:

      @wee162

      I think its the rUK losing some sovereignty that would be the stumbling block (if any). Good heavens, they’d have to behave with fiscal responsibility for once instead of printing money willy-nilly to keep the City sweet.

      As for the (“horrors!”) loss of Scots sovereignty – we haven’t got any at the moment anyway so how can we lose something we’ve not had for the last three centuries?

    20. msean says:

      Would this be a good time to remind ourselves that IF we agree to give up some sovereignty to use what is, after all,a fully tradable currency,then this time we are doing it on a democratic basis and will RETAIN the right to take the sovereignty back.Only some of it will be on loan, so as to speak, and all of it will not be not wholly permanently transferred to another country against the will of the Scottish people.

      Remember,not any person of any import has yet said no definitively.

    21. Murray McCallum says:

      but a degree of fiscal flexibility – say over spending and borrowing – would also be ceded to the rUK in order to ensure the currency union actually worked

      Basically a warning – Scotland do not repeat the mistakes of the UK and end up with £1.3 trillion debt.

    22. G H Graham says:

      The only reason I think Salmond prefers the Pound is political. i.e. it wont scare some voters off voting for independence.

      In reality, I see no fundamental economic reason why Scotland doesn’t issue its own currency and tell the rUK to fuck off and tell it to keep all the UK debt. The BoE has already said they would honour it anyway because it fears the markets response if it didn’t.

      Scotland would start off with zero debt but would initially run an annual deficit of anywhere from 5 to 10 billion pounds so would need to borrow for a while.

      The problem by telling the rUK to fuck off is that the markets might only buy sovereign debt at sky high rates making borrowing rather expensive.

      Apart from that, Scotland would a small, rich country with a GDP higher than Britain, a debt to GDP smaller than the rUK, unemployment lower than the rUK & will have the capacity to adjust for a national living wage in a nuclear free country.

      Just exactly why wouldn’t anyone want that?

    23. msean says:

      Don’t worry,it’s almost impossible to run up a debt like that unless you are Westminster or Washington.

    24. Indy_Scot says:

      I see that the BBC is making great play of the fact that according to Mark Carney, a currency union would mean that Scotland would not have true independence.

      Oh well, I suppose that will suit all the people who wanted Devo Max on the ballot paper but were denied it by David Cameron.

    25. Jill Parton says:

      wee162, I’m in agreement with you. Any relinquishing of sovereignty would work both ways. rUK should not expect to just carry on as they are. When things change for Scotland they change for rUK as well. I was surprisingly impressed with Mark Carney’s speech. He wasn’t giving anything away. The economics of currency union were never going to be simple, but if both sides work at it, it will be successful – for the short term at least.

    26. Chic McGregor says:

      “Why doesn’t Alex call their bluff and say OK we will set up our own currency.”

      Because then he would be blamed for the ensuing chaos in the markets. 😉

    27. Les Wilson says:

      Consider these negotiations that would come about after a yes vote just for a moment as a insurance. It could be that there could be a better compromise in terms of BOE requirements IF Scotland took some responsibility from BOE.

      In respect that if there ways a difficulty, were a “lender of last resort was required, the SG could opt to account for some of it themselves.

      Doing so, like any monetary agreement, should require less demands from the MAIN lender. Simply because up to a certain level, Scotland would be liable to agreed limits.

      That in turn would lower what the main lender would be required to find, this should lead to a lower number of demands to restrain Scotland in fiscal ways.

    28. msean says:

      BBC commentators on full damage limitation mode lol

    29. david says:

      would losing a little sovereignty apply to ruk also?

    30. Dal Riata says:

      @MajorBloodnok

      Full-on agreement with you there. (And yes, Peter A. Bell has a way with words and is a good writer)

      Like some others have said, I’m not too happy about being in a currency union with rUK, but for now, the best decision is to do just that until Scotland switches to its own currency.

      In that respect:

      What would be the criteria for switching to our own currency?
      When would the time be ‘right’?
      How would any de-coupling from Sterling be done?
      How much prior notice would Scotland have to give the Bank of England and rUK that it was due to launch its own currency?

      Thanks to anyone who answers!

    31. msean says:

      jimbo 5pm

      that had crossed my mind also. Would love to see the unionists’ faces.

    32. Indy_Scot says:

      Robert Peston saying that Mark Carney has thrown a stink bomb into Edinburgh.

      It must have been one of those odourless ones.

    33. kalmar says:

      @G H Graham
      Indeed, and it probably would scare a lot of people off (or at least tip the balance towards it being more inconvenient than they’re comfortable with).
      Which I’m sure is why you continually see BT banging on about him “not having a plan B”. If he even breathed the (quite obvious, and not un-sensible) possibility that the Euro would be an option, it would be siezed upon and made into the only issue worthy of discussion between now and the referendum.

    34. edulis says:

      There was one wee hint from Mark Carney that he is on-side with independence. That was when he revealed that one of his mentors was Jim Mirrlees, the Nobel prize winner, who sat on the Fiscal Commission established by the Scottish Government.

      I am sitting listening to Robert Peston saying that Carney has thrown a stink bomb into the Scottish Government’s case for Independence- all based on volatile oil prices. Who do you believe Jim Mirrlees or Robert Peston? I can’t believe Jim Mirrlees would not have thought this through.

    35. Scott says:

      Peston really going to town on this Scotland going into recession would need to be bailed out and the rUK would not be willing to do that,no word about what if rUK went into recession pity someone would not ask that question.

    36. msean says:

      Saw that,damage limitation overdrive.

    37. Taranaich says:

      I completely fail to see how losing a little sovereignty is somehow supposed to convince us that having no sovereignty whatsoever is better.

    38. Bill Walters says:

      @wee162 “Doesn’t that suggest that both an independent Scotland and rUK would both be losing bits of their sovereignty? If there’s tight fiscal rules for Scotland, the same would apply south of us as well.”

      This is true, both sides would have their sovereignty limited by a fiscal compact, however that’s not exactly the best line of argument if we want the rest of the UK to agree to a currency union. A currency union could only happen if the rest of the UK agrees to it, so pushing the negatives does more harm than good.

      Personally, I tend to think that even the euro is a better option than a UK currency union. At least with the euro we’d have full representation in the European Council and whatever Eurozone decision-making body might emerge. It would take a lot longer to achieve, but that might not be a bad thing as we all know the Eurozone is undergoing a period of reform.

    39. McDuff says:

      I am now inclined to agree with some of the posts that Salmond should call Westminster`s bluff and start (if he has not already done so) to look at an alternative to the pound.

    40. Thepnr says:

      I don’t see any justification for the glee coming from the BT camp, the MSM and Unionist Politicians.

      The current state of affairs is that we have no influence at all over interest rates, they are set by the BoE to suit the economy in London and the South East.
      We currently has no say whatsoever in how much we can borrow or spend, basically we can’t borrow and can only spend what the pocket money handed to us.
      So what is being ceded compared with todays state of affairs? Zero, Nil, Zilch.

      However with independence, we will control all our taxes, our welfare, how our money is spent, our laws and we will have a constitution reflecting the will of the Scottish people.

      No downside with Independence only a great deal of things to look forward too.

    41. Taranaich says:

      Thepnr: The current state of affairs is that we have no influence at all over interest rates, they are set by the BoE to suit the economy in London and the South East.
      We currently has no say whatsoever in how much we can borrow or spend, basically we can’t borrow and can only spend what the pocket money handed to us.
      So what is being ceded compared with todays state of affairs? Zero, Nil, Zilch.

      However with independence, we will control all our taxes, our welfare, how our money is spent, our laws and we will have a constitution reflecting the will of the Scottish people.

      Exactly. It completely blows my mind that people think having control over inflation or interest rates (which we don’t, and never will, have in the UK) is more important than control over what we spend our money on. You might as well say it’s better to be in a country you hate, because you can’t control the interest rate of your bank account.

    42. Jim Mitchell says:

      There is a term for what we heard from Mr Carney today,it’s called stating the bleeding obvious!

      We could have written the unionist reaction to his comments yesterday.

    43. creigs1707repeal says:

      We’ll keep the pound.

      We’ll keep the Queen.

      Well keep our UK identity/passports.

      We’ll keep our social ties/heritage.

      We’ll keep NATO.

      We’ll keep the EU.

      We’ll keep the UN.

      We’ll ditch Trident.

      On other words, Devo Max+.

    44. Murray McCallum says:

      I completely fail to see how losing a little sovereignty is somehow supposed to convince us that having no sovereignty whatsoever is better.

      Exactly. As would any rational person.

      Alex Salmond runs the risk of losing the referendum if he publicly mentions a Sterling alternative. We know the media is biased, but a quote along those lines would make things a 1,000 times worse.

    45. Dal Riata says:

      @ Taranaich said:

      I completely fail to see how losing a little sovereignty is somehow supposed to convince us that having no sovereignty whatsoever is better.

      Good point and absolutely correct.

      It doesn’t stop the likes of the Guardian coming up with deliberately misleading headlines such as, “Independent Scotland ‘needs to cede sovereignty’ for currency union with UK”, though, of course! (Apart from the “sovereignty” bit, maybe someone should tell them that after Scotland becomes independent there will be no “UK”…Poor deluded wee souls that they are!)

    46. morgan mc says:

      In short:Vote Yes for continued No under the SNP vision.
      Politics by default left with Devo Max.

    47. jingly jangly says:

      G H Graham
      Where do you get the idea that Scotland would have a deficit?

      Currently we have a deficit because we are paying more than our share of UK debt, paying for weapons of mass destruction, Aircraft carriers etc, paying for foreign military bases, royal family, fancy embassies, HS2, CrossRail London,8.6% share of English/Welsh prisons and courts etc etc etc and when were independent then all the income that Scotland earns will be deposited in the Scottish Treasuray.

      Then If we walk away without any debt, we probably will be able to balance our books, and going forward manage to put something away for a rainy day (oil fund)

    48. Sue says:

      While I quite agree with the frustration that causes various commentators to suggest declining a currency union with rUK, I don’t see how a credible case can be made for suggesting iScotland will join the euro until after UK have been persuaded to ask the EU for a ruling on iScotland’s status wrt EU membership.

      Knowing the form MSM have on running both sides of a scare at the same time (and often in the same story) can you imagine the headlines that would follow after Salmond announces iScotland will use the euro unless we have a cast iron guarantee that we will be in the EU at all?

    49. G. Campbell says:

      And Robert Peston put his UKOK vest on.

    50. msean says:

      The idea of independence appeals more everyday. The protests are getting more frantic, so it must be workable.

      o/t Always find it an amazing run of bad luck how English reporters alway seem to find the Unionists to interview during their Scottish street forays.

    51. Peston talking utter drivel the BBC is surpassing past lows.

    52. Bill Walters says:

      @Thepnr “We currently has no say whatsoever in how much we can borrow or spend, basically we can’t borrow and can only spend what the pocket money handed to us.
      So what is being ceded compared with todays state of affairs? Zero, Nil, Zilch.”

      The argument would be that we’re giving up our representation at Westminster, while still being effectively tied to its decisions. At present, while your MP might not vote for every policy that’s implemented, your constituency is at least represented in decision-making. Under our current proposal, we’d have decisions being made that affect us in a foreign parliament where we have no representation at all. That’s also the key distinction between this and devo max (given under devo max we’d still have MPs in the UK parliament).

      I largely agree with McDuff above that there should be a serious effort made to look at other currency options. The currency union has been put forward as a kind of way to sidestep the issue altogether (given it implies we’ll just carry on with the same currency we have now) but it actually raises more questions than the other two currency options.

    53. muttley79 says:

      @morgan mc

      “In short:Vote Yes for continued No under the SNP vision.
      Politics by default left with Devo Max.”

      What are you talking about?

    54. Alba4Eva says:

      One or two ‘radical’ comments above.

      Radicalism doesnt work and would not get support in any event. Gradualism is the most sensible way. Just sayin’

    55. Ruby Tuesday says:

      http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/speeches/2014/706.aspx

      video of speech, press conference & pdf transcript of speech.

      Sorry if this has already been posted.

    56. muttley79 says:

      @Bill Walters

      Who says this currency union will be permanent? I personally believe it is just a transition measure, to enable us to bed down new institutions that will be created by independence. In time I believe there will be a Scottish pound currency and our central bank.

    57. liz says:

      I think the commited Yesers will take this with a pinch of salt but the switherers will probably worry.

      It becomes more imperative by the day to day away from this poisonous union.
      As was reported with the beeb commentors, the glee is also noticeable on the Guardian BLC.

      I think they need to think we are failures so they can feel better about themselves -they really are a bit pathetic.

      Whatever happened to British fairness etc – did it ever actually exist?

    58. Murray McCallum says:

      After 5 to 10 years of an independent Scotland would be time to start discussing a new Scottish currency.

      It would be ill advised to do so now I think.

      Just think of the immense efforts invested already to inform people they will be £500 (or whatever) better off under independence. That is all out the window as the campaign against Scotland will simply say the new currency is “worthless”.

      Better together are trying to goad the Yes Campaign to come out and start talking about a new currency.

    59. Edward says:

      Can we have a pause to ponder?
      Let us ponder on why Sterling is supposed to be or is considered a ‘hard’ currency
      The definition is that a hard currency is a ‘safe’ currency that hardly fluctuates in value, backed up by industry and resources.
      Conversely a soft currency is one that fluctuates wildly and has no industries or resources to speak of.

      Now if Scotland has all the natural resources such as Oil and England doesn’t and any industry that England had is in the hands of foreign companies, why then would Sterling, back only by England remain a hard currency?

    60. Thepnr says:

      @Bill Walters

      I’d prefer a Scottish pound too, but if two Noble prize winning economists advocate a currency union (at least initially) then I’m not going to argue.

    61. Thepnr says:

      Meant Nobel but suppose Noble is ok too 🙂

    62. Ken500 says:

      Mark’s a YES man. Liked the comments about Scotland.

      BBC spinning like mad. They do like the sound of their own voice.

    63. liz says:

      I think the SG have to grab the initiative with this story and start trying to get some more positive info out.

      The BBC is beyond disgraceful and we have to accept that there is little we can do with them.

      I hope Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp can sum this up in a good concise way.

    64. Dal Riata says:

      Robert Peston is an anagram of Better No pros – Yes, he’s definitely one of them alright!

    65. muttley79 says:

      @Liz

      “Whatever happened to British fairness etc – did it ever actually exist?”

      No, it never existed in a political sense anyway. Essentially, the British state was a colonialist/imperialist state, which robbed many nations’ natural resources to enrich itself. At the same time it killed anyone who got in the way of this. This state has been on the decline since arguably American independence, and continued through the founding of the Irish Free State, the independence of India, Egypt etc, to the end of the African colonies. Therefore, the British state is in the advanced stages of its decline (see Tom Nairn). Hence, we have the MSM, the British government, and Scottish Unionists acting in the manner they are now. Even if there is a No vote things in Scotland will never be the same again. The decline of the British state will carry inexorably onwards.

    66. kininvie says:

      Alex Salmond has the ‘OK, we’ll walk’ card in his hand. He can play it any time. And it would most certainly cause market jitters and give Osbourne a headache.

      But it’s not a card he can play without huge risk, because he has to win the vote. And ‘keeping the pound’ is a valuable peg which the undecideds can cling to. Playing that card is only possible once he’s assured of an overwhelming Yes.

      BT & WM know both of these things. Hence they think they can push the issue. They can try to unsettle voters, while at the same time tempting AS to play the card…

      He won’t, of course. But he can remind WM that he holds it, now and again. And the more the polls move in favour of Yes, the more he can wave it at the opposition.

      Carney the technocrat has one single mandate: stability of sterling. And if that stability is threatened, either by AS waving the card too often, or – more likely – by WM hostility to a currency union, he will crack down on the guilty party. You’ve already seen how he does that over the debt business.

      His talk with Salmond will have been: ‘If you don’t rock the boat between now and September, I’ll undertake to slap WM on the wrist if they overstep the bounds…’

    67. Andy-B says:

      So Carney spent an hour alone with Salmond at Bute House, oh to be a fly on the wall and hear what was said, probably something along the lines of.

      Salmond- “So Mark you’re not going to talk unionist mince now are you.”

      Carney- “Nope, just don’t leave sterling whatever you do.”

      Salmond- “Mark you know and I know you need Scotland to keep sterling, to keep it a strong currency.”

      Carney- “I know, but when I go outside I’ll have to act as though you need us, more than we need you.”

      Salmond- “See on the 19th of September Mark.”

    68. Fergie35 says:

      BBC Radio Scotland actually cut his speech off and hastily put on a play!! Wtf!

    69. Paul says:

      Who are the markets going to take heed of Darling who as chancellor was partly responsible for bringing Britain to the brink of ruin and has left the UK with 1.5 trillion in debt or a debt free Scotland under the excellent stewardship of John Swinney.

    70. sneddon says:

      The BoE won’t be able to dictate anything outside it’s remit so why are some folks bleating on about a YES vote meaning in essence only ‘devo max’ If you want to be totally independant move to North Korea ‘cos every country affects its neighbours whether in a currency, economic or political union unlike our friends and erstwhile invaders 😀 in North Korea.
      In any currency union rUK will have to mend its ways as well, no more printing money for the markets and in that regard they know that. They have to ask what’s important to them :the contribution Scotland will make to the balance of payments or quantative easing for the benefit of the banks? BoE conditions will apply to both countries. That’s their decision and the BoE will adjust, if however the divergence in both countries economies becomes too much then we can create our own central bank, no bother but for the now. currency union makes sense from an economic and political perspective but nothing lasts for ever 🙂

    71. Flower of Scotland says:

      I think things are going along nicely ! We can have Sterling just now after Independence . See if rUK play it fair , then decide if we keep in with them or dump them and get our own currency !

    72. Roboscot says:

      Uncertainty about a sterling zone means uncertainty about sterling. It will be interesting to see how that uncertainty plays out with the markets.

    73. TheGreatBaldo says:

      One things baffling me regarding the media coverage of Carney’s speech, including some woefully almost comically biased commentary on all the main broadcasters.

      Mark Carney is the politically neutral Governor of the BoE, right ?

      He gave what was (if you actually read it) as fine a neutral and balanced analysis on Currency Union and their strengths and weaknesses as you’ll find.

      It was as all the broadcasters have described as politically a ‘neutral’ speech ?

      But in their analysis, they are in effect saying ‘no actually it wasn’t balanced, it was really partisan speech which really put the boot into the YES campaign’.

      It’s Schrodinger’s Cat again…..a balanced speech with something for both sides, which at the exactly same time, proves one side is absolutely and emphatically right !

      So just so we’re clear, The Governor of the Bank of England doesn’t and won’t take sides because he’s impartial…..but he has.

      So glad our media can provide such clarity on these matters.

    74. James123 says:

      Brian Taylor on the BBC News Channel just now quoted Carney as saying that “a currency union would be very very difficult”, really, when did he say that?

    75. Macart says:

      The Guardian home page has gone one step further.

      Scotland ‘can’t set tax and spending if it keeps pound’

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/29/independent-scotland-cede-sovereignty-currency-union-uk

      That’s their headline title which changes drastically when you get to the story. What they fail to mention is that whilst the BoE will determine how much currency is available for the Scottish government the amounts are negotiable as are the restraints on borrowing. What the Scottish government then does about taxation and prioritisation of spend within those agreed limits is entirely up to them. And of course there would be constant consultation with the Scottish government’s own representation.

      This of course is not the direct inference from the headline.

    76. HandandShrimp says:

      I agree Muttley, I can’t see a long term currency union. It is a measure to get Scotland up and running with people barely noticing we have set off. It will serve as long as interest rates and monetary policy are broadly aligned. As soon as the BofE wants to dampen run away house prices we will be looking to do something different.

    77. Thepnr says:

      I’m trying a bit of “nattin” over on the Torygraph, usually the posts will be given some respect. Not tonight though, the rabid foaming at the mouth type have been let loose going by the recent posts.

      http://archive.is/0myPj

    78. jingly jangly says:

      Channel Four news talking pish, their on about how our banks are too big, we canna take it captain!!!! Do these idiots not know that the losses were in the London based casino banking system and as such even in an Independent Scotland, it would have been the BOE that bailed them out.

      Channel four news used to be a must see, however, no longer this and the other crap they have been spouting about Scotland in recent months has made me rethink my source of news and therefore RT news is going to get one more regular viewer.

      BTW My Cybernat mug arrived today, they look great…

    79. heedtracker says:

      Forego freedoms if you vote YES, means the Bank of England controlling borrowing by all future Scots government because look at the debt mountain Labour left behind. But its Darling/Brown and Labour that hit the borrow/spend/debt frenzy that Carney has to control. Watching Darling fearmonger takes a strong stomach.

    80. faolie says:

      Voices increasingly shrill as expected from the No camp. But the very fact that the BoE Governor has actually spoken on the subject, and in such measured terms too, and the fact that SG is so relaxed about his comments, will continue to make a currency union seem appropriate and normal.

      And as for a plan B, well, no way will this ever be raised before the referendum (except for whispers in George Osborne’s shell-like, obviously).

    81. Ericmac says:

      I am struggling to be impressed by David Torrance’s analysis.

    82. mr thms says:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/how-fearful-scotland-stayed-in-its-cage-jim-sillars-the-snps-former-deputy-leader-believes-his-country-bottled-it-when-it-rejected-independence-james-cusick-reports-1542310.html

      “How fearful Scotland stayed in its cage: Jim Sillars, the SNP’s former deputy leader, believes his country ‘bottled it’ when it rejected independence.”

      An Independent article from 25th August 1992!

      Continues..

    83. JLT says:

      Thepnr / Taranaich

      I wonder if this is what terrifies the London boys. It’s not the actual Currency Union. It’s the loss of ‘sovereignty’ not just in Scotland, but also in England.

      If we have currency union, then England is looking down the same barrel of the gun as Scotland. The BoE will make sure that the ship is balanced and not leaning one way towards one nation, that could invariably crash the other nation.
      The London Investment boys might find their wings clipped by being told that it is ‘they’ who are in danger of rocking the boat, by continually playing Casino Banking and handing out large bonuses.

      What happens (at this point, say we have currency union in place) if Scotland puts a financial proposition down on the table, and Carney and co like it! What happens if it goes against the grain of what the City boys want to do …but now they are told they can’t. What happens if Scotland does sort out its debt, starts to make profit, and is seen to be extremely balanced while England plays roulette with billions once more. Carney and Co would surely sit with the Scots, and growl at the City.

      Basically …what is good for the goose, is good for the gander. If Scotland has to lose some sovereignty, so does England. I wonder if this is what is really upsetting the Treasury Boys …and yet to refuse Scotland currency union, would see Sterling devalue through loss of oil as collateral, and also against their old nemesis …the Euro.

    84. Tony Little says:

      H&S

      Indeed, that’s been my understanding from day 1. Both countries need a transition period, which could be up to ten years, in order that the economies can settle down to the new dynamic of an iScotland with oil and an rUK without. There will be a deal on the debt which will require the quid pro quo of a Sterling Zone.

      During the ten years or so, I fully expect that the economies will begin to diverge, and sufficiently so that it is obvious for the Scots that launching our own currency is not only desirable, but necessary.

      Of course the only thing that would interrupt this would be the election of a Labour administration in 2020 8-/

    85. Thepnr says:

      @jingly jangly

      Channel 4 is “publicly owned” i.e. Westminster control it.

    86. Wp says:

      This was supposed to be the deal buster. But it ended up no different from what we already knew. Actually more people than ever know that the UK need us to share the pound. The threat that they may not allow it will have the same effect as all the other scare stories. It has confirmed the power that we have with our resources and our spirit. We won’t be bullied any more. Bring it on.

    87. Macart says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Couldn’t agree more. Short term is peachy to keep stability and continuity. Long term aim has to be our own central bank and currency.

    88. Ericmac says:

      I said it months ago, and I said it recently. and I will say it again… Anyone with a bit of common sense and a modicum of business knowledge understands that there will be some sort of currency union.

      Scotland and rUK are and will be financially interdependent for a while. Markets, debt, employment mobility, exports and nationwide industries necessitate it.

      All this ‘bluster’ about currency is nothing but politicians, journalists and unionists over inflating a moderately difficult subject that puts fear into people – finances, debt, banks, regulation and lending. Scary stuff!

      And so many people terrified of change.. A new currency? So what. It would be alongside sterling (and the Euro if you wanted) for years. Plenty of countries around the world use more than one currency.

      I seem to remember M&S were accepting Euro at some point. Not sure if they still do it. Most of us hardly touch money these days… It’s mostly electronic money.

    89. Gaavster says:

      Interesting looking programme on BBC Caesar! at 9pm tonight

      Rathad an Referendum – an in depth look at the referendum story so far and how the fight for an independent Scotland has developed over the years

    90. Marcia says:

      So when the joint Government statement is finally made I think you will find that the pound will be used by both Governments

      Had a canvasser from TNS at my door asking me to partake in a poll. Apart from basis referendum questions, nothing about currency.

      Interesting editorial from Fife Online re Daily Hate Mail.

      http://www.fifenewsonline.co.uk/opinion/the-real-poisoning-of-the-independence-debate#.UujyyqPAkSm.twitter

    91. Edward says:

      So any guesses as to what Paul Sinclair is going to get Lamont to say tomorrow at FMQ’s?
      Will it be (in nor particular order:
      a) Cowdenbeath result
      b)NHS waiting times
      c) Mike Russel saying that the UK Government were xenophobic
      d) Mark Carney
      e) That’s a nice tie you have First Minister
      or
      something else

    92. Ericmac says:

      Residents of Scotland should realise that they are sitting in the dentist’s chair with two plums in their right hand.

      Saying….

      “We are not going to hurt each other are we?”

      The dentist doesn’t like it much. But he knows he is going to have to do the bridge that you want.

    93. Mealer says:

      I was quite pleased with the speech on the whole.Nothing too dramatic or startling really.For a currency union to work there will,indeed,have to be a loss of some fiscal autonomy but nothing which would hamper the Scottish Governments plans too much in the early days.Salmond has made his position clear.Its time for Cameron to stop dithering and tell us if he would like a currency union or not.

    94. GP Walrus says:

      Huw Edwards had the good grace to look faintly disgusted by Peston’s little propaganda piece.

    95. Hetty says:

      sorry not had time to read all posts yet, but on seeing the bbc news headline, I read it as, ‘Carney warns Scots over Pound Land’…I mean he might as bloody well!
      I do like Ericmac’s comment, ha ha…

    96. kininvie says:

      @thepnr

      Yes, the Torygraph’s full of frothers tonight, as usual. Do you suppose they all sit there in their bedrooms, tapping away, targeting their hatred, co-ordinated by Mr Gove?

      I especially appreciated:

      “The Scots are a natural shoe-in for the Eurozone. Petty, selfish, left-wing and financially illiterate.”

      That’s our gas at a peep then

    97. Edward says:

      Gawd , just reading stupid comments on the Torygraph
      One nutter stating ‘Because with a pegged currency (as Ireland had) there is even less economic control. Also, the Irish economy didn’t exactly boom during the period they pegged to Sterling’
      In case no one is aware Hong Kong, that rather small part of china that was a British colony and is doing reasonably well, has its currency pegged to the US dollar (7.75 / USD). Life must be really bad in Hong Kong, with demand for living space at a premium, how do they do it!
      In fact there are many successful economy’s that have currency pegged to the USD. But for some insane reason you get tossers quoting ‘Ireland’ as an example of why currencies should not be pegged

    98. HandandShrimp says:

      I had a quick look at the Torygraph

      Wow there are some angry people out there 🙂 The Mail could have a field day…oh wait they are all Brit Nats so it doesn’t count.

      Well I can’t say I have seen any angry Yes supporters following Carney’s speech whereas the No lot are in hyper drive – I wonder why?

    99. kininvie says:

      O/T

      I know we’re all saving our bawbees/groats/merks for the upcoming Wings crowdfunding.

      But if you have a spare fiver – saving the Yesmobile might be a worthy cause? Take a look:

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-mobile-appeal–2

    100. Horacesaysyes says:

      Despite the increasing shrill spinning being done by Darling, BT and the MSM, I think today’s speech was in general a good one, indicating that any obstruction to a currency union would be political rather than economic.

      As others have said, I, too, would prefer to cede a small amount of sovereignty in the short term to gain the power to take our own decisions over everything else.

    101. Marcia says:

      An interesting read from Derek Bateman about the currency thingy today.

      http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/preparing-for-change/

    102. James123 says:

      Nick Robinson and Robert Peston doing a cracking job of cramming the words Greece, Portugal and Cyprus into their reports. Despite the fact that Scotland has a much stronger economy than those countries, funny how they never compare us to Norway, Sweden, Finland etc.

    103. Murray McCallum says:

      I see Channel 4 News continued the Robert Peston “stink bomb” economic analysis when interviewing John Swinney.

      Someone plants the term for others to follow.

      This hysteria should abate once people actually take a look at what Mark Carney said (or didn’t say). It will unravel like all the other bluster.

    104. FlimFlamMan says:

      @Dal Riata

      What would be the criteria for switching to our own currency?

      Without its own currency a nation cannot create full employment and meet the saving desires of its citizens unless it can guarantee current account surpluses. Scotland may well run those surpluses after independence, thanks to oil exports, but that ties Scottish prosperity to those exports, limiting the scope for responding to climate change and switching from oil to carbon-free energy.

      It’s what Carney said about fiscal and monetary sovereignty; if they’re not combined in a single entity, a single state, it causes problems. Depending how you look at it, either nation states need their own currency — Scotland removing political/fiscal ties should also remove monetary ties — or currencies need their own nation state — eurozone monetary pooling should have also seen political/fiscal pooling; a euro federal state.

      The oil would keep Scotland from becoming Greece or Spain, but with the oil gone, or left in the ground in a switch to renewables, a Greek/Spanish/Italian/etc. style future would beckon.

      When would the time be ‘right’?

      At a minimum: before the oil runs out, or it is decided to leave it in the ground. Ideally: the instant the idea of a Scottish currency ceases scaring people away from voting Yes*, or Sept 19th, whichever comes first. Okay, I’m being facetious, but the sooner the better, and definitely before the oil is gone/left.

      *scottish_skier and others convinced me that pushing too hard for a Scottish currency before the referendum would scare people off.

      How would any de-coupling from Sterling be done?

      Broad brush strokes:

      a) Issue new notes and coins.

      b) Begin levying taxes in the new currency.

      c) Switch government spending to the new currency, at an ‘exchange rate’ of 1:1; no point complicating things with a value differential (see below).

      d) Guarantee bank deposits in the new currency, but not existing sterling deposits. Don’t force depositors to change currency.

      e) Depositors wanting to switch to the new currency — they will, since it’s the new ‘tax money’ and has insured deposits — can ‘buy’ it from the government with their existing sterling, giving the government plenty of sterling to deal with any UK debt obligations that it takes on, assuming they remain denominated in sterling.

      f) You now have a government that can run whatever deficits are needed to maintain full employment, and which has no need to issue debt.

      I suggested the ‘exchange rate’, the initial spending numbers, would be 1:1, but the relative scarcity of the new currency, combined with oil revenue, will likely raise the value of the Scottish InsertCurrencyNameHere above that of sterling over time. Perhaps a short period of time. If it is too high, it can be lowered by creating more.

      How much prior notice would Scotland have to give the Bank of England and rUK that it was due to launch its own currency?

      None, unless Westminster gets the current Scottish government to sign away its rights during the negotiations after the referendum. I can’t see Salmond falling for that.

    105. Effie Deans says:

      We know that independent countries can have currency unions with each other. The Eurozone is a prime example. There are advantages to such unions and disadvantages. However, one reason why the UK might not be too keen on entering into such a currency union is that there is no guarantee that Scotland would remain in it. In Scotland’s future there occurs the following sentence “It would, of course, be open to people in Scotland to choose a different arrangement in the future. (p. 111) No doubt we all remember the fears in the Eurozone when there was talk of Greece leaving the Euro and how this would destabilize the whole currency. The possibility that Scotland might leave would also, of course, cause those issuing bonds to an independent Scotland to factor this in when trading. Personally I think one of the main advantages an independent country has is the ability to issue its own currency. This is the difference fundamentally between recovery in Iceland and continued poverty in Spain.

    106. Jimsie says:

      @MajorBloodnok 5.13 I totally agree that is the way forward.

    107. scottish_skier says:

      The possibility that Scotland might leave would also, of course, cause those issuing bonds to an independent rUK to factor this in when trading.

      Agreed.

      So long as the markets are given plenty of notice, then it shouldn’t be much of a problem.

      Retaining the £ means essentially Devo Max (excel). It’s a sensible approach from the UK and Scottish governments to go this route, i.e. gradualist.

    108. Jimsie says:

      @scottish _skier. I”m with you on this. Wait a minute..I can”t ski!

    109. kininvie says:

      It would, of course, be open to people in Scotland to choose a different arrangement in the future. (p. 111)

      That’s true, but it would be ‘over time’. One of the chief reasons the white paper advocates keeping sterling is that, at present, the Scottish and rUK economies are similar. The same could never have been said of Greece and Germany.

      However, as and when the two economies diverge significantly, the option to change the status is open. And let it be said, one of the things the BoE will insist on is that it too has the right to leave. If Scotland’s economy turns into a basket case, rUK would be well within its rights to call a halt.

      But we can assume that, even if the economies begin to diverge, it will be in no one’s interests to perform an overnight fiat – ie a ‘Grexit’. We can safely assume that if either country wishes the currency union to end, plenty of notice will be given, and plenty of market reassurance too.

    110. Boorach says:

      @ Kininvie

      Please folks take note of Kininvie’s plea on behalf of the ‘Yesmobile’ and, if you possibly can, make a wee donation towards the required repairs.

      I know Kevin and Claire well, they are a fine couple and are tireless in their work towards a Yes vote. Kevin and I will be delivering the Yes paper around Tain tomorrow and Claire makes scrumptious Yes cakes (hint, hint!) and both are prominent in the Ninja’s projects.

      The car is decorated to perfection and puts my efforts with my van to shame. So, please if you possibly can contribute to this worthy cause.

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-mobile-appeal–2

      Many thanks

    111. Robert Louis says:

      I think some posters above have pointed out one of the key aspects which the UK media in their haste to spout their pre-arranged anti independence narrative, seem to have missed, and that is this, the financial regulations and restrictions together with some loss of sovereignty would apply equally to rUK, as to Scotland. I have watched the speech today, followed by endless biased nonsense in the media, yet not one has mentioned this important fact.

      In essence we would have an agreement of bilateral checks and controls, such as limits on borrowing or debt. It would apply to iScotland as well as rUK, in equal measure.

      If I can have independence, with the financial controls in place, and giving up a tiny bit of sovereignty, then I’ll take that any day over the wholly undemocratic colonial state of affairs that exists at present.

      What is truly worrying regarding today, considering we are supposed to live in a democracy however, is the way in which the entire UK media, have managed to contrive a wholly fake anti independence narrative from what was an extremely balanced and carefully worded speech by the Governor of the Bank of England. Seems to me, the only journalist worthy of the title in Scotland right now, is Derek Bateman, the rest just come across as paid liars.

    112. SquareHaggis says:

      I was under the impression that because all of the notes in my wallet are Scottish then we already have our own currency.

      If we had our own treasury….

    113. Murray McCallum says:

      Jim Mitchell

      There’s a full hoose there Jim – SNP’s plans, Eurozone-style, BBC, Alex Salmond, we deserve to know, plan B, …

      What a steaming heap.

    114. FlimFlamMan says:

      @Effie Deans

      The possibility that Scotland might leave would also, of course, cause those issuing bonds to an independent Scotland to factor this in when trading.

      I assume you mean those buying bonds issued by an independent Scotland, in which case yes, it would face a similar yield premium to that faced by deficit running eurozone nations.

      Personally I think one of the main advantages an independent country has is the ability to issue its own currency. This is the difference fundamentally between recovery in Iceland and continued poverty in Spain.

      Yes, this really is the crux of it, and you can add Greece, and Ireland, and Portugal, and Italy… The Barely Believable Corporation stopped covering the eurozone once the banks were saved, for now, but unemployment continued to rise, and deprivation is at levels that can only be described as a crime against humanity. Over 50% youth unemployment in Greece and Spain; an entire generation abandoned.

    115. bunter says:

      The markets are our friends. All we need to do is keep convincing folks to YES, increase the YES poll figures, and then issue some veiled threat and call Gideons bluff. We work hard and the shit will fall around their ears all by itself.

    116. bunter says:

      Just looked at The Herald headline. Why are pro indy folk giving this paper the time of day, their money and click rate. Are they all just fooled by the one day a week neutral ish Sunday edition. I think we are in a media war, so to speak, and shouldn’t fund the enemy. We should give our resources and time to this site and similar sites and publications.

    117. Boorach says:

      @ Kininvie

      Thanks any and everyone who contributed towards the ‘Yesmobile’s’ repairs… The target was reached within an hour of the appeal being launched.

      FANBLOODYTASTIC!

    118. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev,an no stoning fur that,fire aff a complaint tae Wiki

      AndyB 3.40pm on Slumbering Watchdog,

      Wiki link, Flipantly ( WINGNUT ) editorial stance ie
      Daily Mail.
      We canny let them steal oor identity. lol

    119. clochoderic says:

      OT

      Good program about referendum on BBC Caesar! right now.

    120. Indy_Scot says:

      Mark Carney will get home tonight from a long day at the office, turn on the TV to catch up with any going ons today and think,” WTF, was the media at a different Mark Carney speech from me.”

    121. callum says:

      is it just me who thought that Mr Carney was being subtle when he didn’t specify which state would lose some sovereignty…

      i.e. rUK may have to go with decisions that Scotland would make. of course, the press are all immediately saying that rUK would be the major stakeholder. But I don’t think it’s quite so clear cut.

      indeed, the ultimate weapon for Scotland would be to threaten to back out of Sterling if the rUK government decided not to play ball which could well result in a Sterling collapse.

    122. TheGreatBaldo says:

      BREAKING NEWS

      The Unionist hyperspin has finally gone thru the looking glass people….

      Newly elected Lib Dem Deputy Leader Sir Malcolm Bruce….

      “If you have a Plan B, which they don’t, but you’re forced into it because you cannot get the deal you want, therefore you know your promises are undeliverable, you try to relaunch the groat where you’ve got no central bank with any track record, or anybody in it, the currency’s new and you’ve started your arrangement with a default. Then try and raise bonds on the stock market. Scotland would be bankrupt within weeks.

      Vote YES and we’re skint by October !!!

      Jesus Christ they are truly rattled….

      http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-malcolm-bruce-interview-part-1on-the-liberal-democrats-achievements-in-government-and-how-the-snps-promises-are-undeliverable-38020.html

    123. Creag an Tuirc says:

      Exactly callum, I wish someone would have ask Mr Carney “What are the implications for rUK, Sterling and BoE if they don’t enter a currency union with an independent Scotland?”

    124. kininvie says:

      @boorach

      When the Yesmobileappeal came to my notice (via Twitter), the donations stood at £153. And now…..over the £500 target!

      Whatever may be said of Wings, no one can doubt its readers’ generosity towards a good cause.

    125. heraldnomore says:

      O/T Now here’s a curious thing. Have you tried asking your search engine to take you to your local newspaper of late, typically HamAd/EKNews etc? Well it seems that all such searches are directed to the Record now. Maybe JP have been up to tricks again and google have relegated them; or maybe the Record’s taken over the world. Or maybe it’s just me…

    126. Marcia says:

      Derek Bateman’s 3rd article of the day;

      http://tinyurl.com/p75vpql

    127. John grant says:

      They didnae hear what they wanted today and have shat it , hence the hysteria , hope they have brown bags handy. Thing is currency union is only a stop gap, when it suits us we are off with a currency of our own , and that’s when the shit really hits the fan, and I for one hope it hurts , I’m bloody angry to much has been said by people who should no better .

    128. cirsium says:

      Mr Carney confirms the feasibility of the SG’s plans for the currency in the White paper. What is the fuss about? Did the “journalists” not read Scotland’s Future?

    129. wee_monsieur says:

      @Kininvie
      Alex Salmond has the ‘OK, we’ll walk’ card in his hand. He can play it any time. And it would most certainly cause market jitters and give Osbourne a headache.
      Correct. A friend of mine, a very senior banker says that Sterling will crash if (oil-rich)Indy Scotland quits the pound.

    130. Thepnr says:

      @TheGreatBaldo

      As has been shown in many articles and explained by the SNP. Scotland has had a surplus for the past thirty years. With the expected savings from defence for example. Scotland would have a very small borrowing requirement if any.

      I add the “if any” because I doubt we have the whole picture and are actually contributing more than is being reported.

      i.e. All these head offices that are based in London or elsewhere in the rUK I doubt break up there tax receipts as being from Scotland or elsewhere.

    131. Donald MacDonald says:

      Once we have a ‘Yes’ we negotiate. If they play hardball silly buggers, we shrug and announce Plan B, which I’m sure will have been well considered and kept in a drawer.

      Whatever it is, Sterling without currency union, Scottish Pound or some other variant, they will shit themselves.

      Hell mend them.

    132. Mark says:

      I agree with many of the previous comments. A currency union with RUK may mean that if Scotland’s economy is in very good shape it may be us demanding less borrowing by the RUK and RUK having less flexibility not us, otherwise we’ll leave.

      Also, I agree that a currency union is good for us in the short term and will help in a number of ways, but a Scottish pound in 5 years may be beneficial to us.

      I lived in Jersey for a number of years and Jersey uses a pound. You can spend a uk pound in Jersey/Guernsey but cant take a Jersey/Guernsey pound to spend in the UK. The Channel Islands also take Euros due to the number of tourists.

    133. HandandShrimp says:

      I have to say I am enjoying Carney’s intervention. The No side are firing off dozens of pieces on it, mostly using journalist spin pieces rather than the speech plus the questions and answers and there is a lot of invective. A lot of invective.

      A number of commentators on the papers are taking a more direct approach, picking up on the more obvious message that this is an actual possible outcome. Hence there is a lot of “Just go and you are getting nothing” messages.

      I think one of them was from Nick Robinson 😉

    134. kininvie says:

      Mr Bateman on scathing form:

      http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/whod-want-to-share-anything-with-this-lot/

      There’s a huge game of smoke and mirrors going on, with the ordinary Scottish voter as the target.

      Day by day, as the figures come out and are explained, the situation becomes clearer. Despite everything they would have you believe, Scotland actually – amazingly, you might say – has the whip hand in all of the currency/debt debate.

      But since BT has backed itself into the too-poor, too-stupid corner, it simply cannot admit to this – or even to an equality of position. And acknowledgement of it by WM would cause a massive WTF? among Telegraph readers who need to be reassured of their superiority in all things, not least over the 5ft gingers north of Carlisle.

      So it will continue until September. Common sense long ago vanished. Even after September, the tone won’t change to ‘you won, let’s shake hands and get on with life’. It will become ‘ungrateful, treacherous, who-do-they-think-they-are?’.

      The English were once admired for fair play. Not much evidence of that at present.

    135. Donald MacDonald says:

      Jim Sillars’ tweets are showing why he’s in a party of one. Not that I disagree with much of what he says, but Jesus H. Christ, most of it is stuff we can take care of once we have a ‘Yes’. The Queen, the currency, all that stuff.

      Jim wants it all now, on day 1, with a Labour government. He’s brilliant, but not practical, or realistic.

      Which is why he’s a loose cannon, and not in politics.

      Sad.

    136. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @creigs1707repeal says:
      29 January, 2014 at 6:06 pm
      We’ll keep the pound.
      We’ll keep the Queen. Well keep our UK identity/passports.
      We’ll keep our social ties/heritage. We’ll keep NATO.
      We’ll keep the EU. We’ll keep the UN. We’ll ditch Trident.
      On other words, Devo Max+.

      Don’t forget we’re keeping Coronation Street, Doctor Who, and John Barrowman too …

    137. Paul says:

      Is the Westminster Government saying that it doesn’t want to keep the pound or that it wants to leave both the EU and NATO? If these institutions are bad for an Independent Scotland then they must be equally bad for them I think we should be told.

    138. muttley79 says:

      @bunter

      Have to agree with you regarding funding the pro- independence campaign at the expense of the MSM. Today proved that they can never be trusted to give balanced coverage. Don’t spend money on newspapers, and do not give them on line revenue either. Fund Yes campaign direct, WoS, Bella Caledonia, NC, Michael Greenwell’s podcasts etc.

    139. Edward says:

      Callum – Your actually correct, Mark Carney’s task is to treat both England and Scotland as equals and that both counties entering an agreement for a common currency arrangement managed by the Bank of England will have to release a certain amount of control to the Bank. If that didn’t happen then the Bank would not be able to do its job.
      Currently the Bank of England is independent which means that it is the Bank that sets interest rates not the UK Government. Same scenario after the end of the union.
      Unionists don’t like it, that tough

      At this moment in time the most powerful financial person in Britain, is not George Osborne, but IS Dr Mark Carney.
      He will lay down (if not already done so) the rules for both government to follow

    140. call me dave says:

      Here’s a good blog with some nice articles.
      This one written last Friday.

      http://tarffadvertiser.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sovereignty-where-will-it-lie-on-yes.html

    141. Edward says:

      Calum – the pertinent passage in Mark Carney’s speech is this : “In short, a durable, successful currency union requires some ceding of national sovereignty.It is likely that similar institutional arrangements would be necessary to support a monetary union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK” This refers to ALL parties signed up for monetary union

    142. Papa docs says:

      Scotland tonight.

      John Swinney. Very competent and confident reply as expected, to Darlings rantings on Mark Carneys talk on currency union.

      Darling has lost the plot and looks deranged and incoherent in thought and speech.

    143. Thepnr says:

      Well I have to say I obviously expected the attcks from the MSM to increase the closer we got to the vote. I really did not expect the average English punter to be so wound up that we would have seen the level of hatred present BTL on the Telegraph.

      Daily Mail Yes goes without saying but the Guardian too. From 5 minutes ago:

      “kieran84 • 8 minutes ago ?
      The minute Scotland gains independence England must launch a full scale blitzkrieg style invasion and take it back just to show them who is boss. Any other response to a yes vote will go down in history as appeasement.

      We will need to strike before they get settled in.”

      Oh dear. http://archive.is/SxNKR

    144. Edward says:

      Newsnight Scotland interviewing Jo Armstrong of CPPR as an ‘independent economist’ – Jeez , unsurprising that she came out with pro union guff

    145. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Storm in a tea cup! Like all the scaremongery this story will run it’s course, be analysed by those and those that know, debunked, Alec Salmond will be proven right and Yes will get more votes. Don’t panic!

      I was talking to a friend today who has always been a conservative voter as her had always been and never felt the need to question her vote. She knows my position regarding independence, however today she mentioned that she had been discussing it with her family any was frustrated by the differing opinion on matters of independence regarding what the Scottish government are saying and what the bbc/stv/msm/no camp etc. are saying. She is even becoming aware of the bias of reporting on independence and the negativity portrayed. People are noticing and are being turned off, and looking for answers elsewhere. I gave her a business card that I got made up advertising wings/nns/bella/bfs etc. I believe my friend (in her 70’s) will soon be a Yes vote!

    146. Training Day says:

      @John Grant and Thepnr

      Yup, the Union is finished. Too much bile and hateful ignorance has flowed our way from our so called ‘partners’ for it to be otherwise.

    147. kininvie says:

      @ thepnr

      Plenty of precedent for Mr kierans’ view. I believe Henry VIII was the last person actually to put it into practice, but the mentality lingers on…

    148. Edward says:

      Isle of Man (along with Jersey and Guernsey) are in a currency union with the Bank of England. Funnily the Isle of Man has a lower Corporation Tax that the UK
      https://www.gov.im/categories/tax,-vat-and-your-money/income-tax-and-national-insurance/business-and-corporations/corporate-tax-rates/

    149. redcliffe62 says:

      Salmond should say, whilst I prefer full independence, the suggestion from Carney is that as far as currency is concerned a “DevoMax” solution is better for all, which then provides stability for both rUK and Scotland.

      We have noted before that almost a third of Scots prefer to be tied to the UK without being fully apart, in currency matters this is what will happen, with the BoE deciding policy for both rUK and Scotland.

      In other words, the suggestion made by BoE and which we agree with exactly matches what many people in Scotland want, and we are here to represent the people’s wishes. This is best solution for all concerned etc etc

      Headlines, “Salmond accepts DevoMax as outcome from Bank?”

    150. call me dave says:

      redcliffe62

      I haven’t been trudging round doors and working for independence for nearly 40 years for devo anything!

      No Grand old Duke of York stuff please.

    151. Flower of Scotland says:

      BBC news at midnight
      Headlines are — M Carney of the Bank of England WARNS Scotland that they will have to GIVE UP Powers to join a common currency ! WHAT !
      It then tones down its rhetoric .

    152. X_Sticks says:

      Never has so much crap been spewed by so many…

      I think they’ve finally realised IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN!

    153. Chic McGregor says:

      Carney, what a showman. (That’s a Merkin/Scottish joke
      )

    154. Chic McGregor says:

      P.S.
      The find-the-lady stall?

    155. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Devomax is independence, nothing else will do otherwise Westminster will be stuck to us like the shit on your shoe!

    156. bjsalba says:

      Which has a better record of Fiscal prudence, Scotland or rUK? Scotland is forced to be that way by the terms of devolution, but they have managed the money they do have well.

      Will the markets not judge the two governments by their past performance?

    157. MajorBloodnok says:

      kininvie says:

      Plenty of precedent for Mr kierans’ view. I believe Henry VIII was the last person actually to put it into practice, but the mentality lingers on…

      I think Cromwell came up and did a bit of damage too (e.g. Tantallon Castle).

    158. Illy says:

      I haven’t read all the comments here (there’s too many), but did he just say (about halfway through) that Scotland is *already* in a currency union with the rest of the UK?

      ie. the SNP’s statement that a currency union is probably the best way to go is yet another “we’re not going to change what isn’t broken” statement? (Like the monarchy, and the EU, and…)

    159. Andy McKay says:

      If Carney is too nice to Scotland he may be bumped off and replaced with someone who will do Wesminsters bidding.

    160. Dal Riata says:

      @FlimFlamMan

      Thanks for answering my questions further up this thread so well. Terrific contribution and very much appreciated!

      As I said before, no fiscal economist am I, so I’ll probably have to re-read what you said a few times before I ‘get it’!

    161. FlimFlamMan says:

      @Dal Riata

      Thanks for your response.

      As I said before, no fiscal economist am I…

      Neither am I, I just made the mistake of being a good little boy and saving for my future. Then the crash happened and I lost a chunk of it, and wanted to know why, so I set about learning how finance, currencies, and economies work.

      It’s not a pretty sight. I actually know what a CDO squared is now, but I sort of wish I didn’t.



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