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Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    35068 to “Off-topic”

    1. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And another Dundee Band…

    2. William Wallace says:


    3. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And yet another Dundee Band…

    4. William Wallace says:

      A spoons pub seems like an affy odd choice for such a cultured bunch as you lot. 😉 🙂

    5. Jim Bo says:

      Hi Paula Rose,
      As a Dundee resident and long time Wings reader/ lurker I would love nothing more than to come and meet you guys this Saturday, however, as a student teacher I’ll unfortunately have no time for such frivolities. I shall be with you all in spirit however.
      Have fun and until the next time.

    6. Jim Bo says:

      I meant to mention also that, despite the constant negativity towards the Scottish Government’s handling of Scottish Education, most of those on my cohort as far as I can tell are in favour of Indy. Just a wee positive note to end the day.

    7. William Wallace says:

      @ Jim Bo

      I know how focused the SNP are on education and narrowing the attainment gap but, surely they have not got you doing overtime on a Saturday night 😉

    8. Cactus says:

      Plus 30,000 comments us beautiful people!

      Rock on the 40.

      Go OT!

      Love yer COUNTRY!


    9. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      It’s alive, It’s aaaaaalive.

      Am eh on your ignore list an ah? 🙂 Eh seem to be on abody elses!! 😉

    10. William Wallace says:

      Hint taken 🙂 Eh’ll awa an mutter tae mehsel in the coarner iy 😉 It’s nae bather.

    11. Cactus says:

      Aweright man Wallace, hows goes ye, oor leader of many and all…

      “Well we ken whur wir gaun like aye..” 😉

      Ye ken me, ahm clockwise.

      Spit-Spot hehe!

    12. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Guid nicht oot?

    13. Cactus says:

      Aye localish, nae heidbangin’ ra nicht.. will save that for THIS COMING SATURDAY.

      Just been rearranging furniture hehe 🙂

    14. William Wallace says:

      Invasion oh meh mind!

    15. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Dundeez gift ti the ferry


    16. Cactus says:

      Guid stuff William Wallace, ah liked the panning on the excellent invasion 🙂

      Kevin McCabe is quality.

    17. CameronB Brodie says:

      My gift to anti-imperialist, Queer-space-Communists everywhere. 🙂

    18. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      He was in Liff wi meh auld man iy.

      Mental – yet lucid.

    19. Cactus says:

      The good stuff William Wallace. The rain is fair pishin’ doon ower here in the Glasgow, how’s things ower yours onda east side?

      When returning tonight, I kept finding stick rocket carcasses.

      With the smell of fireworks in the air.

      Learn to love the rain 🙂

    20. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Set fire to the rain 😉

      Love to all of Scotland. Shine brightly!

    21. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the British Establishment’s support for the state of Israel. What about Scotland’s right to self-determination and statehood?

      Zionism, Nationalism, and Morality
      Elias Baumgarten

      [Published in Nationalism and Ethnic Conflict, ed. Nenad Miscevi?, Open Court Publishing Company, 2000.]

      No topic causes more acrimonious debate between Jews and Arabs, even among those who favor a “two-state solu­tion,” than the morality of Zionism. Israeli Jews from the “Peace Now” movement often astound Arab audiences when they call Zionism “the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.” And Arabs infuriate even many left-wing Jews when they label Zionism a form of racism. Part of the debate is due to confusion about the meaning of Zionism, the relation­ship of Zionism to other forms of nationalism, and the extent to which partiality toward “one’s own” is ethically justifiable. I will try to untangle some of that confusion and to con­struct a frame­work for assessing the morality of Zionism.

      One source of confusion is the failure to distinguish between Zionism as a pure concept and Zionism as an historical reality associated with the state of Israel. The concept of Zionism does not imply the partic­ular way that Israel has implemented it. One can oppose the policies of Israel, yet defend the idea of Jewish nationalism and even of a (radically changed) Jewish state in Palestine. In this essay I first address the morality of Zionism as a concept, apart from its implementation by Israel. I then discuss the implementation of Zionism and argue for two claims applicable to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I conclude by suggesting a moral requirement for Zionism today, one which has larger implications for the ethics of nationalism.

      I stipulate two principles as central to Zionism:

      · Jews have a moral right to self-determina­tion or a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

      · Jews have a moral right to self-determina­tion or a Jewish state somewhere in Pales­tine.

      The first claim addresses something close to the pure idea of Jewish nationalism completely apart from its implementation in Palestine. The second claim includes a consideration of the competing claims of Jews and Arabs to the land of Palestine. For those who do not think that these principles capture what is essential to “Zionism,” this essay can be considered an evalua­tion of the two principles, which are themselves interesting, controversial, and suggestive of larger issues in the ethics of nationalism.

      One further preliminary point. Each claim refers to “self-determination or a Jewish state.” In this paper I will assume that political self-deter­mination means statehood because in the modern world nations typically achieve full self-determination by gaining a state of their own. Both Palestin­ians and Jews—not to mention Kurds, Kosovars, and Croatians—under­stand their own self-determina­tion in terms of statehood. Moreover, the more general moral debate on the ethics of nation­alism focuses on the exis­tence of contempo­rary nation-states. [1] Perhaps a homeland for Jews would have been possible without statehood, and there are good reasons for the world to develop means by which political communi­ties can achieve self-determination in some form other than that of the nation-state. But I will not tackle that question here. There­fore, in dis­cuss­ing nationalism and Zionism, I will assume that Jewish self-determi­na­tion would express itself through statehood….

    22. CameronB Brodie says:

      Without effective voice in the British state, Scots lack political agency and are unable to express a political identity outwith boundaries defined by English votes. Having never experienced democracy that reflects our popular sovereignty, are Scots truly free?

      Culture – Too Long In Slavery

    23. Ruglonian says:

      Just checking in again to see if there’s anyone that fancies sharing the bus/train journey from Glasgow up to Broughty Ferry on Saturday?
      Any takers, no?

      Well I’ll check in tomorrow evening – fingers crossed 😉

    24. Ian Foulds says:

      Confusion in this Evening Standard item, courtesy of, regarding England and Britain – no surprise for Wales and Scotland

      Apologies for not archiving. One of many skills still to be acquired

    25. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian Foulds.

      I’ll paste this…

      RE: Archiving…

      I’ve posted this info at least a couple of times in the past year or so but here goes again.

      The biggest problem here goes like this…
      You see a page, say at, that you feel should be archived. So you go to and paste the url of the page into the box. accepts your submission and archives the page. All is well with the world.

      The problem arises when,
      a) the “live” page is edited an hour later and,
      b) someone decides to archive the page half an hour after that. will tell you that the page was archived two hours ago and give you a choice – accept the already existing archive or create a new one. You MUST accept the existing archive because, if you elect to save a new archive, you will OVERWRITE the original, unedited version that was originally saved, thereby losing it.

      2. It is more secure to use the Internet Archive, which has been on the go since at least the 1990s, to archive stuff. The benefit of the Internet Archive is that it does not overwrite pages it has previously captured. It just keeps them there to be browsed.

      As an example, go to:-
      and paste
      into the search box and hit return/enter.

      You’ll get a page which has a calendar at the top, showing that The Herald has been archived since 2009. Hover over any of the “spikes” in that calendar and click and you will get a display showing (blue-circled) all the captures for that year.

      And to make it even easier, here’s the link that takes you to all the Herald captures.

    26. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      In case anyone’s interested,

      is still simmering away; sensibledave this afternoon and my reply to him a wee whiley ago.

    27. Ian Foulds says:

      Brian Doonthetoon at 8.17pm.

      Thanks for this.

      Some homework for me.


    28. yesbot says:

      Hi Winger’s

      Really looking forward to the get the gither@Dundee, it has definitely been too long, just need suggestions as to where to stay?

    29. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Yesbot.

      Ask Alex about the space availabe on his carpet…

      PS: Jolly’s has nothing available that Saturday night.{493796ED-D33E-4566-80ED-AC33595A5B13}&cid=20171111&nights=1&adults=1&child=0

    30. yesbot says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      7 November, 2017 at 9:45 pm

      Hi Yesbot.

      Ask Alex about the space availabe on his carpet…


      I’ve tried Jolly’s and B + B’s no joy. Not so familiar with Broughty/Dundee.

      Dear Alex, Can you help, will travel with sleeping bag??

    31. Ian Foulds says:

      Thanks to Brian Doonthetoon’s kind advice, I may have now obtained the correct link!!

      Hope this makes more sense.

      Brian, I shall continue to practice – it is like acquiring drum skills, a current challenge and slow as well as painful.


    32. Alex Clark says:


      I wish I did but now looking overbooked and wife starting to get nervous lol. I’ve found these for you which are available:

      Jolly’s still have one room available on at £59, breakfast extra.

      Stonelee Guest House, a 5 minute walk away. Rated 9.2 twin room available at £60 including breakfast.

      Best Western Woodlands Hotel, 5 minutes in a taxi, single room £54 excluding breakfast 5 minutes in a taxi.

      Good luck in the hunt 🙂

    33. Alex Clark says:


      Just for info there’s a train stops at B/Ferry from Glasgow Queen St leaving at 17:04 and arriving 19:02


      Could you not offer the lady a lift 🙂

    34. yesbot says:

      I wish I did but now looking overbooked and wife starting to get nervous lol. I’ve found these for you which are available:
      Jolly’s still have one room available on at £59, breakfast extra.

      Thank you Alex, will try for that! See you next week.

    35. yesbot says:

      Dear Alex

      What time is your event?

    36. Alex Clark says:

      It’s not my event it’s ours :), from around 19:00 on is what I’m suggesting.

      I’ll be there for 19:00 with a few others, but people are welcome to turn up at any time of course, sure we’ll still be there 🙂

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      How do you understand the concepts of identity, equality and liberal democracy? International law? Social psychology and sustainability? Can you justify supporting the state of Israel and not supporting Scottish self-determination and statehood?

      The Twinkle Brothers – It’s Not What You Know

    38. Cactus says:

      Morning Ruglonian and Alex.

      Aye I’d been planning on driving up from Glasgow wae Jock Scot… if yer flying solo, sure come and join us 🙂

    39. Alex Clark says:


      Good news, if you get here before 5 O’Clock I’ll make your tea lol.

    40. CameronB Brodie says:

      Let me enlighten you about identity, equality and politics.

      Putting the ‘Identity’ into Identity Politics

      ….Identity politics seeks to give political weight to the ways in which particular groups are marginalised by the historically shaped structures of society. To be a woman, a person of colour, transgender or Indigenous is to be born into and located within a set of social meanings and power relations that shape and constrain what sort of life is possible for you. Your experience of the world will be conditioned in very different ways from those on the other side of social power asymmetries. Identity politics, at its simplest, is an attempt to expose and respond politically to this reality.

      Importantly, identity politics has always been a reaction to liberalism, a very different, political anthropology which shares the goals of equality and ending oppression. The liberal approach to social justice sees the demand for political equality as emanating from a shared human dignity. As such, it de-emphasises difference. If only we look past the superficial things that divide us, we’re told, we see a common humanity that washes away any justifications for discrimination on the basis of race, gender or orientation….

      Ethics, Identity, and Society Career Path

      Are you interested in political, economic, and racial equality? The Ethics, Identity, and Society path is focused on questions of social justice, political identity, and political philosophy, with courses ranging from the early roots of democratic equality to contemporary debates about political inclusion and economic fairness. This career path will help you develop skills of ethical, historical, and cultural analysis, and to recognize the ideas and presumptions beneath the surface of everyday politics. This is a great path for those who want to study several areas of law, work for national and international NGO’s, serve in analysis or outreach for urban, state, or tribal governments, or take part in public debates about policy….

      The Politics and Ethics of Identity: In Search of Ourselves


      Like so many of Hegel’s pithy observations, this one is suitably enigmatic. I am drawn to it because it can be read to capture, avant la lettre, and with admirable brevity, the implications of recent work on identity in psychology, analytical philosophy and political theory. This research indicates just how elusive the concept of the self is, conceptually and empirically. As many philosophers contend, the self may be an illusion, but one that is central to the well-being of modern people. As Hegel suggests, we appear in multiple guises by virtue of our numerous self-identifications, but invariably think of ourselves in the singular. Given the contradictions between our self-understandings and those of science, we have a strong incentive to keep the former under wraps. My goal in this book is to shed light on conceptions of identity and their associated practices. Following in the footsteps of Hegel, my end goal is to think about the relationship between identity, and politics and ethics.

      Most analytical philosophers and neuroscientists question the existence of the self. Some deny its existence altogether, and describe consciousness as a never-ending stream of fleeting sensations and reflections on them. For others, there is a ‘minimal’ or phenomenological self, an illusion to be sure, but a powerful one that provides meaning to our lives and guidance in our interactions with others. If selfhood is questionable, identity, which rests upon the foundation of the self, is an even more dubious concept. Westerners—and many other people—would be as shocked by the thought that they do not possess a self as they would be by the suggestion that they are without a gender. More remarkable still, most Westerners believe in the face of all the evidence to the contrary that their identities are consistent and unique.

      Highly respected scholars in diverse fields (e.g. Clifford Geertz, Erik Erikson, Paul Ricoeur and Anthony Giddens) encourage this illusion, as do prominent philosophers (e.g. Alasdair MacIntyre, Charles Taylor) who want to ground ethical systems in such identities. They write in an era when our discourses reveal the near-metastasis of the word self, which is now attached via a hyphen to an almost endless list of words. These include self-image, self-seeking, self-esteem, self-knowledge, self-consciousness, self-reference, self-preservation, all of which have a positive valence. In part, my project is aimed at pulling the empirical rug out from underneath such claims, but more importantly, in understanding why they are made. What accounts for our fixation on the self in the modern era, and more so still in the last half-century? What kinds of identity projects has modernity spawned? What accounts for this variation, and to whom do different constructions of identity appeal? Could we recognize ourselves as fragmented and question the status of the alleged selfhood on which our identities are based? If so, what would be the ethical consequences?

    41. Cactus says:

      Excellent Alex!

      Lookin forward to… I’ll tie in with ye later on e-mail.

    42. CameronB Brodie says:

      Martin Luther King, Jr. was a bit of an existentialist. He felt identity was of central importance equality.

      As Nolen Gertz writes on his blog,

      “…Beneath his views on race and oppression lies a philosophical schooling that began at least in graduate school, during which time he took courses at Boston University and Harvard on not only the History of Philosophy and the Philosophy of Religion, but also a yearlong seminar on Hegel.”
      “I became convinced that existentialism,” he continues, “in spite of the fact that it had become all too fashionable, had grasped certain basic truths about man.” – Martin Luther King, Jr.

      The Paradox. – Ring the Changes

    43. Tinto Chiel says:

      I’m going to mark my regard for all the good folk who perished in two World Wars by avoiding poppy fascism and by sharing two classics:

    44. David says:

      Tinto, you want to know the truth about Brazil?
      “You can’t handle the truth”… 🙂

      Item One:
      There are only two things that are cheap in Brazil – Human life; and granite kitchen countertops. Really. I know, because I’ve remodelled a kitchen.

      Item Two:
      Some Brazilians’ moral compasses are slightly askew. Example, reported in papers a couple of years ago:
      A man discovered that a local religious leader was having sex with the man’s underage daughter. So the man, like any outraged father would do…

      …started blackmailing the pastor for money, threatening to tell the police if he didn’t get cash.

      Item Three:
      If you don’t like creepy-crawlies, then stay away! With the weather, the sun, the lack of freezing temperatures, there’s hunners an thoosands of beasties, everywhere.
      Wee cockroaches, medium cockroaches, big bastarding cockroaches galore. They like dark hideyholes, like down the slots in your kitchen knife block (finding them there was just – ughh).

      Item Four:
      It’s always sunny. Fuxake, that big yellow ball in the sky doesn’t take a break. It gets depressing waking up and KNOWING you’re going to be sweating all day, same as yesterday, and the day before.
      On the other hand watching the tv news gleefully reporting on some high-altitude town getting a bit of ACTUAL FROST!?! when the temperature goes to minus-1 is always good for a laugh. 🙂

      Item Five (The good news):
      The soft drink Guarana Antarctica is excellent, give it a try if you see it. It has a very light flavour, fruity but a bit similar to ginger ale. There’s no Irn-Bru here but Guarana is an worthy alternative.

      More later. Mibbes.

    45. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      I get the impression you would have been a staunch opponent of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the civil right movement. Do you not accept that Scotland’s right of political participation within the UK, is rendered worthless as a result of the roughly 10 to 1 ratio of English to Scots MPs? Do you not accept that it is the moral responsibility of all to ensure cultural diversity? Which nation are you a patriot to, Scotland or England?

      Culture – the existence of a shared way of life that is judged worth defending that distinguishes partialism on behalf of a culture from racist partialism. Anyone, regardless of race, may choose to participate in the common life of a culture. Insofar as the common life that defines a “people” is not based on race, it leaves open the possibility for all persons to choose (if they wish) to identity with the country’s predominant national culture. – Elias Baumgarten

      Re. Sterile nationalism. That’s what your side does tube.

      The Ethics of Nationalism


      The Ethics of Nationalism blends philosophical discussion of the ethical merits and limits of nationalism with a detailed understanding of nationalist aspirations and a variety of national conflict zones. The author discusses the controversial and contemporary issues of rights of secession, the policies of the state in privileging a particular national group, the kinds of accommodations of minority national, and multi cultural identity groups that are justifiable and appropriate.


      There are two distinct, but related, kinds of problems associated with nationalism: the first is state break-up; the second is control of the state by the majority nation.

      State-breaking is one of the most destabilizing consequences of a successful nationalist movement. The issue of the justifiability of state-breaking, or secession, has become very pressing. In the post-Second World War period until 1989, superpowers were committed to upholding existing state boundaries. While decolonization was permitted, the borders of states were treated, in international law and practice, as permanent—non-negotiable—features of the international state system. But, with the collapse of communism, national divisions have tended to rear their heads, and the multinational states of Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Ethiopia have disintegrated along national lines. The process may not be completed, since many of the successor states are as multinational as the states they left behind; and there are other serious secessionist movements in many parts of the globe—from Quebec to Kashmir, Scotland to Chechnya.

      In his 1991 book, Secession: The Morality of Political Divorce from Fort Sumter to Lithuania and Quebec, Allen Buchanan begins by pointing out that the issue of the morality of secession has received very little consideration from a normative standpoint. He then expresses the hope that his book will help to initiate a debate on the subject. Since then, writers in political philosophy, normative theory, sociology, comparative politics, and other fields have taken up the challenge and there are now a number of diverse philosophical perspectives on this subject.

      This book examines most of the philosophical work on the ethics of secession, arguing that they wrongly abstract from the fact that most….

      This one’s not for Tom.

      Sweet Honey In The Rock – Eye On The Prize

    46. Ruglonian says:

      Hey guys,
      Glad I checked here first – I was just going to book my train ticket – I’d be delighted to join your merry band Cactus, thank you so much for the offer, and if Alex is getting the tea on, all the better 😉
      Email me later and we can arrange ourselves!

      So looking forward to this weekend 😀

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      It’s clear you’re able to make anodyne critique but are you able to think beyond your old-skool ideological presumptions?

      Sister Rosetta Tharpe – That’s All

    48. Tinto Chiel says:

      David: you paint not a very attractive picture. I thought it was all luscious, sun-kissed lovelies on Ipanema beach rolling you a dooby on their smooth thighs. You don’t see that kinda hing in Gourock, you know.

      Cockroaches I don’t like, not even whistling ones.

      Come back home, all is forgiven.

    49. David says:

      Tinto, I could be telling the truth, or I could be lying in order to keep snakehipped charmers – such as yourself – away from the Brazilian burds…

      Here’s a 2-min vid showing Niteroi’s Icarai beach. Nice, with topless volleyball players, and great big coconuts. Oh, and you can look across the bay to Rio de Janeiro city, just a ferry ride away:


    50. Tinto Chiel says:

      But that video had the wrong kind of “topless volleyball players, and great big coconuts”, David.


      Had to scrape the car this morning, too.

      Loved the “snakehipped charmer” comment, though. So true, so true…..

      *Checks profile in big hall mirror*

    51. Tinto Chiel says:

      I have tried three times to reply to David but have been given the BDTT treatment: dingied and then told I’ve made a duplicate comment when I haven’t, because I’ve rewritten a hilariously witty reply.

      Can’t see any trigger words either.

      ‘Sa pure scandal, soanitis.

      Will try later, David. Loved the “snakehipped charmer” bit: so true, so true.

      *Checks profile in big ha’ mirror*

    52. Fred says:

      Aw tae the wan side like Gourock, match that!

    53. Tinto Chiel says:

      Fred, just curious: did you ever sail on The Vital Spark?

      Ah’ve only brushed up against the Gantocks the wance: never again!

    54. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Nana just posted a link about 40 minutes ago on the MT with Alex Salmond being interviewed on I’m guessing BBC about becoming chairman of Johnson Press and very good it was too. He’s one smart cookie.

      Anyway that’s not what I came on to tell you about it was this that I was offered by Youtube as an “you might like” after watching Nana’s link. Ace! LOL

    55. Alex Clark says:

      If that last clip doesn’t make you smile nothing will 🙂 🙂 🙂

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tom Tom Club – Wordy Rappinghood 🙂

      #Loki #Tom Gallagher?

    57. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      Just caught up with the clips.


      😉 😉 😉

    58. Cactus says:

      Morning Ruglonian ~

      You have mail.

      Cheers to all off-topical Wingers.

      “Friends of Wings Over The Ferry Digital Countdown Clock”:
      0 months, 0 weeks, an about days remaining.

      See ye on the beach William.

    59. Tinto Chiel says:

      Right, David, fourth time: I wanted “topless volleyball players, and great big coconuts” but only got, eh, topless volleyball players and great big coconuts.

      Blinkin’ swiz, soanitwuz.

    60. Fred says:

      Ah the Gantocks Tinto, did the Waverley not brush up against them wanst? Have scraped by a puffer in the Crinan Canal on one of my yachting hols, don’t think it was the Vital Spark though. Apparently you can tell coal-fired puffers fae diesel wans by the position of the funnel in relation tae the wheelhouse?

      Big fan of Para Handy, the chapters are just the right size for reading in bed! Apparently the author’s faither was the duke of Argyll?

    61. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Re. Scotland’s lack of effective voice in Westminster. Do you imagine the English New Right will respect Scottish needs? No keen on Scots gaining access to the “Right to Development”?

      Classical Theory of Government and the Social Contract

      ….Rousseau viewed the social contract as a response to the inequalities arising in early society.

      “What a man loses as a result of the social contract is his natural liberty and his unqualified right to lay hands on all that tempts him, provided only that he can compass its possession. What he gains is civil liberty and the ownership of what belongs to him. That we may labor under no illusion concerning these compensations, it is well that we distinguish between natural liberty which the individual enjoys so long as he is strong enough to maintain it, and civil liberty which is curtailed by the general will.”

      Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau show a clear progression in the conceptions of the obligations of government to its citizens. Hobbes sees government as the exchange of liberty for peace, and isn’t much concerned with citizens’ happiness, but Rousseau remarks “One can live peacefully enough in a dungeon, but such peace will hardly, of itself, ensure one’s happiness.”

      Social Contract Theory: Definition & Examples

      Problems with Social Contracts

      The 18th-century Scottish thinker David Hume believed that social contracts were not needed because everyone was born equal. Social contracts came to exist only because governments (kings, conquerors, emperors, and so on) attempted to subjugate people. In other words, only in cases when greedy and power-hungry rulers wanted even more power, did they need to justify their control over others.

      The Social Contract Theory in a Global Context

      VII. The Questions of “Justice” and “Legitimacy”

      While the international arena is better suited to social contract theory with respect to the question of Origins, it poses particular challenges with respect to the questions of Justice and Legitimacy. In particular, the international arena violates the basic presupposition of the social contract theory that individuals be as Locke put, “promiscuously born to all the same advantages of nature, and the use of the same faculties, should be equal one amongst another.”[16] The social contract’s arguments for Justice and Legitimacy presuppose that the parties to the contract will be relatively equally and symmetrically situated with respect to one another. It is this constraint that ensures that the substantive principles that inform the contract will be reasonable, equitable, symmetrical, and so forth. Likewise, it is this constraint that ensures that any authority empowered by virtue of the contract will exercise its authority without favor or prejudice.

      This problem is particularly acute at the international level, by consequence of the vast differences between states, especially with respect to their relative wealth and power. However many critics of social contract theory have argued that the problem occurs at the domestic level as well. Particularly noteworthy are those arguing from the feminist perspective (e.g. Carole Pateman’s The Sexual Contract) or from the perspective of critical race theory (e.g. Charles Mills, The Racial Contract). These critics argue that racist or patriarchal assumptions are built into social contract theory’s claims with respect to the nature of rationality or the substantive principles of justice.

    62. Alex Clark says:


      Ah Para Handy and the Vital Spark.

      “see this thing that’s gon roon and roon it shood be up an doon” 🙂

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Dude, I’ve been gentle with you up to now but it’s clear you’re way out of your depth. Do you have the faintest idea what lies under the public facade of British nationalism?


      Classical Conservatism does not reject change per se, but insists that changes be organic, rather than revolutionary, arguing that any attempt to modify the complex web of human interactions that form human society purely for the sake of some doctrine or theory runs the risk of running afoul of the law of unintended consequences and/or of moral hazards. As a general ideology, Conservatism is opposed to the ideals of Liberalism and Socialism.

      Conservatism generally refers to right-wing politics which advocate the preservation of personal wealth and private ownership (Capitalism) and emphasize self-reliance and Individualism. Conservatives in general are more punitive toward criminals, tend to hold more orthodox religious views, and are often ethnocentric and hostile toward homosexuals and other minority groups.

      Conservative Theory

      Talking Heads – Once In A Lifetime

    64. Nana says:

      @Alex clark

      Thanks for your comment on the main thread. I’m learning stuff every day from links and from other wingers.

      I just need to learn to be a bit more patient for indy, lol but it’s hard this waiting and waiting and wai…………….

    65. Alex Clark says:


      Your another, just like the Rev that doesn’t appreciate how much you are doing for the cause of Scottish Independence. Your links are vital in opening peoples eyes. Slowly but surely they are being opened too thanks to people like your good self.

      Love you loads 🙂

    66. Alex Clark says:

      OK I’m sorry for this. Really really sorry. I can’t help myself and I have to play it. Once again sorry just sorry I didn’t mean it. 🙂

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      Saw that not long after you put it up, must admit I quite respect SD, I know what it’s like posting on a hostile forum, done it on the Express and DT (and Scotsman), and even UKDJ was a bit to start with. He’s forgetting the golden rule, which is NOT to get angry or feel insulted, so I finally deployed my secret weapon and I think I left him with a little egg on his face 🙂

      He’s going to need a wet wipe.

      Got to say, now I’ve broken the addiction of feeling that I have to post, and now just skim a lot, I’m enjoying it again 🙂

    68. Alex Clark says:

      Nostalgia for the poverty of the past? Nah I don’t think so, it’s a reminder of the mistakes of the past. We can be different as an Independent country. A great future awaits us and it’s up to us.

      Embrace the future, make it yours!

    69. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.

      I was well chuffed when I found a copy of Don Spencer’s “Fireball” at a stall in the Dens Road Market in the early 70s.

      I seem to recall that the Gerry Anderson puppet shows were shown on a Sunday around teatime. The one before “Fireball XL5” was “Space Patrol”.

      Onnyhoo, here’s Fireball XL5’s opening sequence.

      You can watch the opening of “Space Patrol” at this link,

      Or watch the whole episode! Before “Space Patrol”, we had “Torchy The Battery Boy” and “Four Feather Falls” and afterwards, of course, Supercar, Stingray, Thunderbirds, Terrahawks and so on.


      Hi yesindyref2.

      I’ll keep a watching brief and leave it to you to slug it out. If he mentions me again, I’ll probably pop in. Don’t want to leave him with the last word. It’s the pedant in me…

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      Literally decades since I had a good few great nights out in Paisley including the Indian buffet of course. Last train home job, leave the car.

    71. Fred says:

      Thanks for the Glesga pics Alex, wonder if Smallaxe is lookin in?

    72. Alex Clark says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Well that was a treat, Space patrol I’d never even heard of I’ve only watched the first 5 minutes yet am engrossed.

      I’ll need to go back and watch the whole video, even the kids programmes back then were more grown up than Great British Bake Off Come dancing Shite that we get now. Good tunes too!

      I’m into retro that’s for sure. Long live retro 🙂

    73. Alex Clark says:


      Yes a brilliant tune, I played that once that’s why it’s brilliant 🙂

    74. yesindyref2 says:

      Kind of retro

      Was probably a YES

    75. Paula Rose says:

      No Dusty song for 1572 comments – shashays over to juke box.

    76. CameronB Brodie says:

      I used to bump into that dude quite regularly, as he was a friend of my next-door neighbour (more than a decade ago). It’s a funny old world.

      As far as “imagined communities” go, I reckon Scotland is about the optimal size for a healthy nation.

    77. Alex Clark says:

      Ahh Paula feeling sorry for you so here you are, this’ll tide you over for another 1572 posts or so I hope 🙂

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      I’ve always thought anyone into folk music would have to be a YESser, apart from one of the Humblebums! Caledonia is a great song but I always thought YES should have something mre upbeat and future. Maybe like, this:

      “Now I’m a union man
      Fed up with what I am
      I say what I think
      That the Union stinks
      Yes I’m a union man.

      When we meet in the Freedom Square
      I’ll be tearing out my hair
      With a hell of a shout
      It’s out voters out
      And the end of the Union’s share.

      Oh, you don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      You don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      You don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      Before the day I die, before the day I die.”

      Needs a bit of work, and the rest of it!

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, “Fed up with THAT I am”

    80. CameronB Brodie says:

      The original “what” works in an existentialist sort of way. 😉

    81. Alex Clark says:

      @Paula Rose

      Tried to post this earlier well at least 15 minutes ago but not appeared. This is for you and she’s a no bad dancer too.

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. William Shatner covering Garbageman. My life is now complete. 🙂

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      Ah, is that what Colin Wilson meant by “Outsider”, he wanted to be outside the Union. We should adopt him posthumously. Anyway, encouraged, I’ll post the second lot of 3 of 3, hoping the Rev is still distracted by his impressive figures.

      “As a union man I’m wise
      To the lies of the union spies
      And I don’t get fooled
      By the media drool
      ‘Cause I always read between the lines.

      And I always get my way
      If I work for Indy Day
      When I show my card
      To the Scotland Yard
      This what I say.

      Oh, you don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      You don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      You don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      Before the day I die, before the day I die.”

    84. cearc says:


      I’ve now got the theme tune for ‘Torchy, Torchy, the battery boy’ bouncing around my head from the moment I read your comment.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      No hammers yet, nor arabs come to that, so, last 3:

      “Before the Union dropped a smear (pooh)
      My life was half as clear
      Now I’ve got the power
      For the marching hour
      And every other day of the year.

      So though I’m a working man
      I can ruin UK government’s plan
      Though I’m not too hard
      The sight of my card
      Makes me some kind of superman.

      Oh, you don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      You don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      You don’t fool me I’m out of the union
      Before the day I die, before the day I die.”

      Improvements welcomed 🙂 Don’t like “my card”, mmm, “disregard”. This is pretty good:

      Don’t sing it in Spain or you’ll get arrested for sedition. Or just bad singing.

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Holland
      That’s a rather confused message from you there, especially as your a historian. Your country is England and only England. Britain is not a country, it is the political union of Scotland and England. Your epistemology appears normatively biased to the extent that your objectivity has been compromised. Not a good look, frankly.

      Postcolonialism and History


      This chapter traces the influence of postcolonial studies on the discipline of history, focusing specifically on the historiography surrounding British imperialism and colonialism. It argues that postcolonial methods and perspectives have helped re-invigorate this hitherto hidebound field of study. The intellectual genealogy of postcolonial studies’ influence is examined; this is then followed by a review of three of the main thematic preoccupations of the new, postcolonial-inspired historiography: identities, geographies and epistemologies. Key works and topics are surveyed, with attention being given to both their contributions and their limitations. The contrast between postcolonialism’s influence on historians of colonial India and Africa is also highlighted.

    87. Alex Clark says:

      Prejudice is solely due to ignorance. Education is necessary to defeat ignorance then forgo prejudice is eradicated.

    88. Alex Clark says:

      I too often talk shite, off to bed. All the best to all the faithful.

    89. Paula Rose says:

      All loving Alex xx

    90. Big Phil says:

      @ Alex,and all Wingers.
      In the style that I love.

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Scotland’s development potential is enormous but it’s achievement is constrained by UKOK neo-liberalism that preferences Tory and swing voters in England. British Labour offer little alternative, as they compete for the same swing voters.

      Scotland’s needs are very different to the south east of England, but we lack the liberty to develop appropriate economic policy, immigration policy, etc.. The present arrangements prevent Scotland from developing sustainable strategies for inclusive Scottish prosperity.

      Honestly dude, you’re totally clues and are simply showing yourself up as a useful idiot.

      Economic development in resource-rich, labor-abundant economies

      Tackling poverty and inequality through appropriate growth strategies is at the core of the World Bank’s mission. In my view, achieving sustainable and inclusive growth depends on a well-functioning market and to a significant extent also the degree to which government policies facilitate private firms’ upgrading and diversification into industries that are aligned with an economy’s comparative advantages.

      To smooth the way and allow this dynamic process to function optimally, we need to answer many questions that are unique to different types of economies. For example, how is it possible to successfully tap a developing country’s comparative advantage when it is rich in resources and has an abundant labor supply?.

      First, some fundamentals of structural transformation must be considered.
      We all know that dynamic growth in the modern world depends on technological innovation and industrial upgrading. And this technological innovation and industrial upgrading need to be consistent with the country’s comparative advantage in order to be competitive and sustainable. According to the famous Harvard economist Michael Porter, for a country to achieve competitive advantage internationally, the industries it develops need to follow the following 4 principles: First, they should use intensively those production factors the economy has in abundance; second, they should have large domestic markets; third, they should form clusters and fourth, they should be competitive domestically. …

      How to manage revenues from extractives? There’s a book for that!

      Countries with large nonrenewable resources can benefit significantly from them, but reliance on revenues from these sources poses major challenges for policy makers. If you are a senior ministry of finance official in a resource-rich country, what are the challenges that you would face and how can you strengthen the fiscal management of your country’s oil and mineral revenues? Consider some of the issues that you would likely encounter:

      For many resource abundant countries, large and unpredictable fluctuations in fiscal revenues are a fact of life. Resource revenues are highly volatile and subject to uncertainty. Fiscal policies will need to be framed to support macroeconomic stability and sustainable growth, while sensibly managing fiscal risks. Also, there is a question of how to decouple public spending (which should be relatively stable) from the short-run volatility of resource prices.

      World Bank forecasts $90 trillion new low-carbon stock opportunity

      The aging fossil-fuel industry — Big Oil, Big Coal, Big Gas — doesn’t want you to hear the relentless drumbeat leading investors away from fossil fuels: Falling stock prices, rising production costs, spills, rapidly depleting reserves. But the reality is, fossil fuels are being pushed aside by a new Age of Sustainable Energy, which is becoming a jackpot of investments in renewable energies, sustainable developments and high-tech opportunities in the rapidly emerging low-carbon world.

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the Anlgo-American New Right, Farage (as in garage), and right-wing populism in general. Authoritarian capitalism is a crime against humanity, frankly.



      Three years after publication of Theory, Rawls’s Harvard colleague Robert Nozick published Anarchy, State, and Utopia (1974), which is, after Theory, probably the most celebrated and widely discussed work in political philosophy in recent decades. In contrast to Rawls’s defense of the social welfare state, Nozick’s conclusions are libertarian. His main purposes in the work are reflected in its title. He attempts to refute the anarchist contention that a legitimate state is not possible by demonstrating how a state could come into existence without violating anyone’s rights. This “minimal” state is charged only with protecting rights, including a strong conception of property rights, and enforcing contracts. Anything more than this is illegitimate, and Nozick mounts a full-scale assault upon conceptions of distributive justice that require more. The result is not only sustained criticism of Rawls’s theory but Nozick’s development of a powerful alternative view.

      Although individual rights are central to Nozick’s project, his justification of them is only cursory — as he was well aware (1974: p. xiv). To establish the possibility of a legitimate state, Nozick presents an “invisible hand” argument. As in the famous argument of Adam Smith, Nozick attempts to show how a result that is not directly anticipated by political actors, in this case, the emergence of a state, is brought about through their actions in pursuit of other goals. Nozick posits a state of nature based on Locke’s. Without a common power to keep order, people, feeling threatened, have strong incentives to band together in protective associations. Because of the distinctive nature of protection, individuals not only want to be in a protective association, but in the strongest one possible, which is able to provide protection from other associations and their members.

      Thus the logic of protection causes individuals to leave their own associations and join the one that is strongest. This process strengthens that association further, giving other individuals incentives to join it, a process that continues until it emerges as the “dominant protective association” or “ultra-minimal state,” which wields de facto authority in the relevant territory. Even people who do not join voluntarily are legitimately absorbed by this entity. Because of dangers that could result from their using force to defend themselves, the dominant protective agency may prevent them from doing so. But it must compensate them for this loss by protecting them. With everyone subject to this association’s protection, the “minimal” state is achieved.

      Right-Wing Populism and the Limits of Normative Critical Theory

      If one wants to address the question of what Frankfurt School Critical Theory can still teach us about the resurgence of right-wing populism in Europe and the United States in recent times, one must call the very concept of the “Frankfurt School” into question and look more closely at how Jürgen Habermas’s efforts to “reconstruct” Critical Theory on normative foundations transformed the intellectual tradition he inherited from Horkheimer, Adorno, Marcuse and the other members of the Institute for Social Research.

      In a short essay like this, I can only discuss a few key points. I would like to say a few words about how Habermas’s theory of history – which was originally very similar to that of the early Horkheimer – shifted in the 1960s and 1970s and how his move away from the Freudian-Marxist foundations of early Critical Theory, more generally, has attenuated his ability to grasp the regressive social and irrational political developments we have witnessed in Europe and the U.S. in recent times. Subsequently, I would like to discuss briefly how and why the early model of Critical Theory is still more helpful than normative approaches in grasping and combating right-wing populism. This short essay should be read in conjunction with the piece that appeared in the previous issue of Logos, in which I provided a more detailed analysis of contemporary right-wing populism and authoritarianism in the United States from the standpoint of early Critical Theory.[1]

      The Right to Justification
      Elements of a Constructivist Theory of Justice

      Contemporary philosophical pluralism recognizes the inevitability and legitimacy of multiple ethical perspectives and values, making it difficult to isolate the higher-order principles on which to base a theory of justice. Rising up to meet this challenge, Rainer Forst, a leading member of the Frankfurt School’s newest generation of philosophers, conceives of an “autonomous” construction of justice founded on what he calls the basic moral right to justification.

      Forst begins by identifying this right from the perspective of moral philosophy. Then, through an innovative, detailed critical analysis, he ties together the central components of social and political justice, freedom, democracy, equality, and toleration, and joins them to the right to justification. The resulting theory treats “justificatory power” as the central question of justice, and by adopting this approach, Forst argues, we can discursively work out, or “construct,” principles of justice, especially with respect to transnational justice and human rights issues.

    93. Tinto Chiel says:

      Since we’ve been on the subject of wonderfully chanky sci-fi music, I remind you of this:

      At least Paula Rose will like the album cover.

      I hope all you Picts have a great time tomorrow night at your Wings Hootenanny. Maybe The Rev’ll turn up for his sixth birthday party.

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Dude, you’re being played for a fool.

      Ideology, the state and welfare in Britain
      Critical perspectives: neo-liberalism and the ‘New Right’

      ‘Neo’-liberalism is an updated version of the classical liberalism of the nineteenth century. There is in a sense very little that is new about ‘neo’-liberalism; it is essentially a restatement of old ideas in an up-to-date and more sophisticated form. Major contemporary neo-liberal thinkers include Friedrich Hayek (1899–1992), an Austro-British economist and political theorist who spent much of his later career at the University of Chicago after a period at the London School of Economics in the 1930s and 1940s. He was the author of, among many other works, The Road
      to Serfdom
      (1944), a book admired by Keynes, The Constitution of Liberty (1960) and the three-volume treatise Law, Legislation and Liberty, published in the 1970s (Hayek, 1944, 1960, 1982). Hayek was particularly sceptical in his later work about the concept of social justice, dismissing it as an illusory ideal.

      Another significant figure is the University of Chicago economist Milton Friedman (1912–2007), who was especially associated with the revival of interest in monetary policy and with the doctrine of ‘monetarism’, which asserts that inflation is a purely monetary phenomenon which can be tamed by controlling the supply of money in the economy. His most politically influential book is probably Capitalism and Freedom, published in 1962 (Friedman, 1962). Most of this is devoted to exploring the supposedly negative effects of government in trying to regulate society, and how free markets and voluntary action could be used to solve a variety of social problems, including, for example, racial discrimination and professional dominance in health care (Friedman, 1962: Chs 7 and 9).

      Another significant thinker was the American philosopher Robert Nozick (1939–2002), whose closely argued treatise Anarchy, State and Utopia seemed to some people to provide the philosophical underpinnings for a theory of the ‘minimal’ state (Nozick, 1974). These three thinkers differed in their basic assumptions, but all shared a scepticism about, or even a hostility to, the contemporary active, ‘enabling’ and interventionist state as had developed in the twentieth century, and particularly since the Second World War. With the possible exception of Nozick, they did not say that the state should have no role at all in providing welfare, only that any such role should be limited largely to the relief of destitution; the state should provide a safety net, but no more.

      Linton Kwesi Johnson – Fite Dem Back

    95. David says:

      You want coconuts, Tinto – here they are!
      Kid Creole – Don’t take my Coconuts:

    96. Tinto Chiel says:

      Never understood wot this was all about but it’s a nice memory from The Olden Days:

      C ya sometime, seps.

    97. Tinto Chiel says:

      Charming young ladies, David, and more what I had in mind originally.

      Do you think they’d be interested in my trenchant apercus on Dialectic Materialism?

      I could get CameronB to help me out when the going gets tough.

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      “talk shite”? “talk shite”?

      I haven’t even got going yet!

    99. David says:

      Salmond strikes again!
      His tv show is not even on the air yet, and already the unionists are in meltdown.
      Pleasing. Very pleasing.

      Oh those Russians (2 second soundbite from Boney M’s Rasputin):

      Mr Salmond if you’re reading this, gonnae put Boney M on your show, pleasepleaseplease.
      Boney M live in Moscow, with an over the top version of Rasputin, 5mins:

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      I’m not sure. That’s thon mechanistic, materialist worldview?

      Thee Headcoatees – All My Feelings Denied

    101. David says:

      Yes indeed Tinto, the beautiful ladies, or ‘moças bonitas do Brasil’, are partial to a brief but illuminating aperçu or two. My philosophical soirées, held of an evening on the beach, are well-attended by the elite of society…

      …at least until the free beer runs out.

      Bad Manners – Special Brew:

      Rules for Brazilian beer commercials aren’t as strict as in Scotland/North Britain/UK, so this is the the kind of thing I’m forced, forced I tell you, to watch on TV:



    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. sweeping majesty. 🙂


      Honest discourse is key to shifting school culture

      While no one has the power to make a person or group change thinking and behaviors, teacher leaders who recognize the signs of a dysfunctional culture, respond proactively and in the moment, and follow up after a team collaborates can initiate moments that move the team beyond the culture of nice.

      A team affected by the culture of nice can look high-functioning on the surface, but signs of an unhealthy culture may exist:

      • Teachers rarely question each other’s and their own practice, assumptions, and beliefs. Instead they may only compliment each other, without investigating areas where the student needs to improve and how the teacher can change instruction to meet those needs. If teachers always leave a team meeting only feeling confirmed in what they have been doing, the team has probably never reached rigorous collaborative discourse.

      • Teachers only share successful student work to avoid judgment from peers. While a teacher leader can still facilitate a rigorous collaborative discourse around successful work, educators stuck in the culture of nice rarely question what makes the work successful and how to elicit similar successes from students not meeting expectations.

      • Teachers who share their unsuccessful student work and those examining it make excuses as to why the student underperformed. In a culture of nice, teachers are more likely to find blame with the assessment or the student rather than analyzing the instruction that may have affected the student’s work. This approach can come from good intentions, like not wanting to hurt a teacher’s feelings, but ultimately it doesn’t change instruction and can be harmful to students.

      • Teachers recommend strategies for the presenting teacher to apply, but don’t critically reflect and apply them to their own instruction. Teams who are stuck in the culture of nice may not explore the broader implications of what they are discussing.

    103. Tinto Chiel says:

      Now I know why I’ve never liked Skol, David.

      I admire your selfless research into Itaipava, though.

      “I’m not sure. That’s thon mechanistic, materialist worldview.”

      I’ll need to get back to you on that, Cameron. Karl and I are still communing with The Great Spirit.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Dude, you’re not ready for this level of discourse yet. Gain some knowledge and experience first.

      Ten Signs of Intellectual Honesty

      When it comes to just about any topic, it seems as if the public discourse on the internet is dominated by rhetoric and propaganda. People are either selling products or ideology. In fact, just because someone may come across as calm and knowledgeable does not mean you should let your guard down and trust what they say. What you need to look for is a track record of intellectual honesty. Let me therefore propose 10 signs of intellectual honesty….

    105. Tinto Chiel says:

      That’s me back now, Cameron: total waste of time. TGS was about to explain all about dark matter and dark energy and then KM denied TGS’s existence as a materially irrational entity.

      It’s nae wunner I stick to coconuts. At least you know where you stand with them.

    106. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s not so easy for anyone to make a monkey out of you then Tinto.

      Harry Nilsson – Coconut

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      Did a bit more, probably as far as I can go now 🙂

      Set a trap, catch flies.

    108. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I was looking through pics that I’ve uploaded to my web space over the past year or three. Don’t know if I’ve flagged this on here before but I will now.

      It shows the very rare, shy and elusive ‘Highland Kangadeer’. No need to thank me.

      This one shows a dragonfly that me and my nieces rescued from the River Ardle, to the east of Pitlochry, in Strathardle, funnily enough. After around 15 minutes drying in the sun, it took off, nae bathir.

      Check out the guy in the blue strip at the left of the next pic and how appropriate the headline is.

      I may post more later…


      Hi yesindyref2.

      The reason I’m scanning my uploads (see above) is to give sd something to chew over. I’ll probably get it posted in the next hour or so.

    109. Tinto Chiel says:

      “It’s not so easy for anyone to make a monkey out of you then Tinto.”

      Mrs TC manages it daily, Cameron *sighs*.

      But wait until Chick McG hears I had the Mysteries of the Universe in my grasp and then Karly blew it…..

      Jeezo, Chick: calm doon!

    110. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here are another three uploaded pics.

      This tank appeared in Dundee High Street, once upon a time.

      Alex Clark may find this interesting. Ony ehdeea whar it is?

      Lastly, Eh’ll hae twa bridies – a plenn ane an’ an ingin ane an’ a’.

    111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Another three…
      I may have posted this one here before. It’s a map showing all of Dundee’s waterways/burns.

      This is from the St Andrew’s Day rally/march in Dundee in 2014. Bob Costello is on the far left, next to Chris Law.

      And the last one, for now… Tartan Tory’s Audi Quattro, pictured at the Arbroath Seafest, August 2014.

      And yesindyref2, I found three graphics for sd to chew over. I’ll get them posted, in the usual place, in the next half hour or so.

    112. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      Done, at:-

      It’ll be interesting to see how he reacts.

    113. Michael McCabe says:

      For all you Folk Meeting up Tomorrow this is for you.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      Nice 🙂

      Thing is I don’t think SD will get it!

    115. Cadogan Enright says:

      C u all there

    116. David says:

      Do we really believe Salmond, careful planner that he is, didn’t inform Sturgeon, well in advance, of his plan for a tv show on RT?
      I believe they carefully planned her response for media questions about it.
      Salmond’s’s not out to pasture, he’s still working to achieve Indy.


      Alex Salmond working on his tv show with Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh.
      Place your bets now on how soon the unionists will start implying they are having an affair.
      I’m not kidding. I really think the unionists are that desperate now.

      And if I’ve though of this, darn sure so has Salmond – plus worked out a scheme to turn this smear against the unionists.

    117. Cactus says:

      If yer going for an early Jolly later today, check out their menus:

      The food menu is very impressive, check it out, it gives you dietary info and all ingredients used for dishes. Eating with surety.

      Go prepared.

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      For anyone who doesn’t know Wetherspoons, the Lamb shank is absolutely meltingly gorgeous.

      Some poster on the Herald has already implied that.

    119. Chick McGregor says:

      Sheena and I had planned to spend the day in Dundee, catching the latest Thor film, then after eating head on out to the Ferry to spend an hour or two with the gang.

      That is all up in the air at the moment since a friend of ours took ill yesterday and was rushed to hospital. They have several dogs which need feeding, watering and walking.

      Sheena went out to the dogs this morning, not back yet, so it isn’t looking good.

    120. cearc says:

      Hope you make it, Chick.

    121. Paula Rose says:

      Heels – check
      Hat – check

      See you all soon.

    122. Chick McGregor says:

      Sheena’s back.

      Like I say it was a friend who we had been out for meals and a concert with and who goes out with Sheena and others on a coffee afternoon once a week and we knew she had dogs but had never been to her place.

      Turns out it was 22 dogs, two horses and two cats.

      I felt guilty as hell because I stayed in the hoose, we thought it was maybe just 4 or 5 dogs.

      Must be virtually a full time job for her, hope she gets out soon.

      So we cannot make it tonight but I’m crap company anyway so your not missing much.

    123. Cadogan Enright says:

      Cartoon from today’s Irish News

      BritNats in big trouble over Irish Boarder – will have to sacrifice DUP for a trade deal

      Am here in bar, amybody else here yet. Sitting by Beano comic pic

    124. Liz g says:

      At jolly’s where abouts are you all

    125. Bob sinclair says:

      Hope everyone is having a great evening of vile wings cybernattery over in Dundee. Enjoy.

    126. Cactus says:

      Wur still up…

      Whose on breakfasts?


    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      That was a simply vile night in the Ferry, way above and beyond the bounds of common decency. 😉

      You know what they say though, “no rest for the wicked”.

      @Tom Gallagher
      Re. sterile nationalism. How do you understand nationalism and the social world we share? Are you really able to distinguish between ‘good’ Muslims and ‘bad’ Muslims, simply by the way they look? Do you support the state of Israel?

      The Cambridge Companion to Critical Theory

      Critical Theory constitutes one of the major intellectual traditions of the twentieth century, and is centrally important for philosophy, political theory, aesthetics and theory of art, the study of modern European literatures and music, the history of ideas, sociology, psychology, and cultural studies. In this volume an international team of distinguished contributors examines the major figures in Critical Theory, including Horkheimer, Adorno, Marcuse, Benjamin, and Habermas, as well as lesser known but important thinkers such as Pollock and Neumann. The volume surveys the shared philosophical concerns that have given impetus to Critical Theory throughout its history, while at the same time showing the diversity among its proponents that contributes so much to its richness as a philosophical school. The result is an illuminating overview of the entire history of Critical Theory in the twentieth century, an examination of its central conceptual concerns, and an in-depth discussion of its future prospects.

      Feuerbach and the Philosophy of Critical Theory


      It is a hallmark of the Frankfurt School tradition of critical theory that it has consistently made philosophical reflection a central component of its overall project. Indeed, the core identity that this tradition has been able to maintain arguably stems from the fact that a number of key philosophical assumptions have been shared by the generations of thinkers involved in it. These assumptions form a basic ‘philosophical matrix’, whose main aim is to allow for a ‘critique of reason’, the heart of the critique of modern society, which emphasises the collective, historically situated and naturalistically grounded nature of rationality. In this matrix, Feuerbach’s place has been only a minor one.

      This paper aims to show that there is more to be retrieved from Feuerbach for critical theory than at first meets the eye. The first section identifies key conceptual features that are shared by the central authors of the Frankfurt School. They signal a collectivist and materialist shift from Kant to Marx via Hegel. This shift is well adumbrated in Feuerbach’s emphasis on the ‘intersubjective’ and social dependency of the subject. However, Feuerbach’s decisive philosophical contribution lies in his insistence on the ‘sensuous’ modalities of intersubjectivity, that is, on the fact that the dependency of subjects on others for the formation of their capacities is mediated and expressed not only through language and other symbolic forms, but also and primarily through embodiment. This Feuerbachian ‘sensualism’ is a rich, original philosophical position, which is not soluble in Marx’s own version of materialism.

      In sections II and III, I highlight the legacy of Feuerbach’s sensualism in two areas of critical theory: first, in relation to the critical epistemology that grows out of the ‘philosophical matrix’ consistently used by critical theorists; and secondly, in relation to the arguments in philosophical anthropology that are mobilized to promote the critical project. In these two areas, Feuerbach’s sensualism – his insistence on the embodied dimensions of cognition and action – represents a useful resource to resist the tendency of critical theory to translate its foundation in the critique of reason into a narrowly rationalistic enterprise.

      The Epistemology Assumptions of Critical Theory for Social Science Reasearch

      The main objective of critical theory is the focus upon the inherent connections between politics, values and knowledge in order to uphold that politics and values form the foundations leading towards scientific knowledge. Habermas’ consensus theory of truth is considered here as the most important contribution toward the whole paradigm of critical theory.

      Critical theory critique towards the Objectivist’s, stand for politically neutral observation language and states the social cultural factors influence our sensory experience and human cognition shapes reality through its imposition of a priory cognitive principles. Only the knowledge derived by discourse through the ideal speech situation is warranted knowledge. A criticism of critical theory is the lack of a clear methodological problem in the concept of oppression and its ideal speech situation. Despite numerous criticisms, critical theory provides the descriptive and normative bas for social inquiry aimed at deceasing domination and increasing freedom.

      “[Osama] Saeed’s argument that the Muslim community’s moderation is a given might be confirmed by the absence (in those parts of Glasgow where most Scots Muslims reside) of the Islamic bookshops, bitter young men and fully-covered women that are characteristic of parts of London and of other English urban conurbations with large Muslim populations.” – Tom Gallagher, Scotland’s nationalist-Muslim embrace, Open Democracy, 9 August 2007

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Do you really want to associate yourself with bigots and racists?

    128. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s wan aimed at supporting the growth of developmentally diverse adult learners.

      Epistemological Development and Critical Thinking in Post-Secondary
      ….The purpose of this study was to use a constructive-developmental lens to understand to what extent epistemological complexity is a factor in developing critical thinking skills in the context of reading and writing. The question guiding this research was: How might adult learners’ epistemological complexity impact their critical thinking performance and learning in reading and writing?

      ….In focusing on academically underprepared learners, this study joins a small but growing body of research using a constructive-developmental lens to explore the learning and growth of educationally disadvantaged adult populations (Bridwell, 2013; Drago-Severson, 2004; Lindsley, 2011). Some scholars have noted the potential risk of investigating disadvantaged adult learners through a developmental lens, which may favour growth and higher stages of development often afforded by resource-rich environments and access to privileges such as formal education and time for reflection (Hoare, 2006; Brookfield and Holst, 2011). Popp and Boes (2001) also state that a constructive-developmental approach to competence risks being construed as deficit-oriented, as nuanced, abstract thinking is possible only at certain stages of adult development (Perry, 1970; Kegan, 1982, 1994; Loevinger, 1976). However, the importance of critical thinking in reading and writing warrants investigation from all relevant perspectives, and a constructive-developmental lens may help illuminate not only developmental challenges, but developmentally appropriate approaches to supporting learning and growth (Drago-Severson 2004; Kegan et. al. 2001).

      Jackie Wilson – ( your love keeps lifting me) Higher and Higher

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      What efforts have you made to de-colonise your epistemology?

      Understanding Society

      Critical theory in the Frankfurt School

      A critical theory, then, is a reflective theory which gives agents a kind of knowledge inherently productive of enlightenment and emancipation. (2)

      Critical theories aim at emancipation and enlightenment, at making agents aware of hidden coercion, thereby freeing them from that coercion and putting them in a position to determine where their true interest lie. (55)

      The idea of enlightenment here is related to achieving accurate knowledge of one’s place in the world — “to determine what [one’s] true interests are”. And emancipation in this context means having the epistemic tools necessary to make one free — to change the world and the structure of governing social relations in ways that increase one’s ability to live and develop freely. So critical theory is a body of knowledge that permits people to move in the direction of greater autonomy and self-definition. And it is a body of knowledge that penetrates through the obstacles and forms of mystification that prevent individuals in dominating social relations to accurately perceive their situation.

      Epistemology and Ontology

      Extending the discussion: epistemology and ontology


      The two opposing camps identified by Onwuegbuzie & Leech (2005) – positivists and interpretivists – are, in fact, making knowledge claims about the world based upon acts of perception and human interaction. And if we accept that ‘knowledge is created from data and analyses’ (Carter & Little, 2007; p. 1317), positivists and interpretivists, broadly conceived, are simply collecting and interpreting different types of data and making different claims to truth. Ultimately we can define knowledge as a particular construction of a phenomenon given the ‘stamp of truth in our society’ (Burr, 2003; p. 68). It is this debate – the status and constitution of knowledge – that forms the central concern of epistemology.

      What is epistemology? Introduction to the word and the concept

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      What efforts have you made to mediate your “positionality” and the way in which the construction of your values and rationality is historically situated?

      Critical realism theory

      Critical Realism (CR) is a philosophy of science that is based around a number of ontological principles. Epistemologically, CR provides principles that can be applied by researchers developing theoretical explanations about phenomena in the world. It therefore functions at a level similar to that occupied by such philosophies as Positivism and Interpretivism. Because CR principles are usually used to underpin the development of theoretical explanations it is more accurately considered a “metatheory”, rather than a “theory”.

      Good Muslim, Bad Muslim – An African Perspective

      Take the example of Islam, and the notion of Jihad, which roughly translated means struggle. A student of mine gave me a series of articles written by the Pakistani academic and journalist, Eqbal Ahmed, in the Karachi-based newspaper, Dawn. In one of these articles, Eqbal distinguished between two broad traditions in the understanding of Jihad. The first, called “little Jihad,” thinks of Jihad as a struggle against external enemies of Islam. It is an Islamic version of the Christian notion of “just war”. The second, called “big Jihad,” thinks of Jihad as more of a spiritual struggle against the self in a contaminated world.

    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      oops critical realism link.

      Bhaskar’s ‘critical realism’ and multiple levels of reality

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      Feel threatened by non-British cultures? Can you justify supporting the state of Israel while opposing Scottish self-determination? Do you consider yourself an agent for moral good?

      Social cognitive theory

      Social cognitive theory provides a framework for understanding, predicting, and changing human behavior. The theory identifies human behavior as an interaction of personal factors, behavior, and the environment (Bandura 1977; Bandura 1986).

      In the model, the interaction between the person and behavior involves the influences of a person’s thoughts and actions. The interaction between the person and the environment involves human beliefs and cognitive competencies that are developed and modified by social influences and structures within the environment. The third interaction, between the environment and behavior, involves a person’s behavior determining the aspects of their environment and in turn their behavior is modified by that environment.

      According to Jones (1989) “the fact that behavior varies from situation to situation may not necessarily mean that behavior is controlled by situations but rather that the person is construing the situations differently and thus the same set of stimuli may provoke different responses from different people or from the same person at different times.”

      In conclusion, social cognitive theory is helpful for understanding and predicting both individual and group behavior and identifying methods in which behavior can be modified or changed.

      What is Social cognitive theory?

      Albert Bandura Social Cognitive Theory and Vicarious Learning

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Occam’s razor and similar medieval bollocks.

      Living In A Box – Living In A Box

    134. Jock Scot says:

      Just home from my Jolly Jaunt to the Ferry. Fantastic weekend, old and new faces alike. Big Thanks to Theepner and his missus, such friendly and hospitable…(TJenny, I miss you at these things).Cactus for getting me there) Cearc for wonderful discussions, Lolly’s mum for slagging me. Betty and Jim for just being Betty and Jim, never change, cheers for electonic lessons on how to avoid bar queues. X Sticks for just being such an outstanding individual, more power to you man. Quinne for being there as it had been a while since we had the chance to meet up. Cameron, you sir, are a gent. Lanarkinst, Jenny, my ‘da’ Ronnie,Ruglonian for taking notes..something about Glenrothes, Paula for providing THE most outrageous end to an evening. Brian and Pete thanks for the badge.Cadogan for bringing a further Celtic twist to our ensemble. and everyone else I haven’t mentioned cos at my age the memory soaked in booze takes a while longer to dry out these days. Stay wonderful Wingers and judging by last nights atmosphere, the IndyParty is gonna be mind-blowing. Cheers!

    135. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Jock Scot –

      What a generous tribute that is – makes me aw the more scunnered that I missed it…


    136. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      You might want to share these with Gordon Brown. He appears to think a federal UK is a feasible option, though I’m not sure if he has run that past the head of state, HRH the Queen.

      Reclaiming Legitimacy in China

      The contemporary politics of China reflect an ongoing effort by the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) to reclaim the right to rule in light of the consequences of economic development, international pressures, and historical change. China’s regime stands out within the Asian region for its success in the effort of adapting to change and ensuring its continuity.

      Focusing on changes in China’s elite discourse during the reform period and particularly during the last decade, the aim of this article is to elaborate the relative importance of various sources of legitimacy as they are shifting over time, as well as inherent dilemmas and limitations. There is evidence of an agile, responsive, and creative party effort to relegitimate the postrevolutionary regime through economic performance, nationalism, ideology, culture, governance, and democracy. At the same time, the study finds a clear shift in emphasis from an earlier economic-nationalistic approach to a more ideological-institutional approach.

      Economic Epistemology and Methodological Nationalism: a Federalist Perspective

      Economics is based on the assumption that the only administrative and juridical relevant framework of both theory and policy is the nation-State. We claim that such methodological nationalism is detrimental to the capacity to understand the operation of economic relations and to effectively achieve economic policy goals. The high interdependence worldwide of economic relations calls for a multi-layer perspective of both analysis and governance in economics, where the constitutional principles of federalism may play a significant role.

      Jingle Punks – Do It Right, Just Do It

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      The door’s open bud.

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jock Scot
      You’re a gent yourself and an inspiration.

    138. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      What Jock didn’t mention was his impromptu live acapella performance. Nicky (Nikki?) from Livingston, a Twitter pal of Paula Rose wasn’t aware of “Yew Choob” so I asked him to do “BBC Ga-Ga” for her.

      He took a minute or so to collect the lyrics in his head then let rip, following it up with another two or three, Like “Donalda Whaur’s Yir Viewers” – in Wetherspoons – and we didn’t get warned or thrown out!

      All in all, another successful get-together in the Dundee environs – that makes 5 up here now; 2 in the Ferry and 3 in Invergowrie. Edinburgh is lagging behind with 2 – and we’re still waiting on word of an Inverness do.

      Watch out for a Glenrothes get-together around April next year. Hint: 6th April is a Friday evening so the 6th or the 7th could be a celebration of the 698th anniversary of the Declaration.

    139. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just a wee heads-up to those Wingers who kindly provided me with ‘wurds’ for the crossword in The National when I was a bit fed-up and looking for fresh stuff…

      One or two have already appeared, but the bulk should be appearing over the next fortnight or so. I didn’t keep a note of when they’re appearing so if you want to get a National XW with ‘your’ wurd in it you’ll have to buy it every day!

      As ever, open to suggestions for future crosswords…minimum three letters, maximum fifteen.


    140. Jock Scot says:

      You were sorely missed but we spoke about you anyway so hope the ‘burning ears’ feeling was appreciated. Your social idea from the start was to go to a pub,be Wingers and pull people in . Man, have we been polishing that idea and last night was it ‘unleashed’ to use a common, current ‘thing’, hope you appreciate the genuineness of this comment as it was a beautiful thing to be a part of.

      @Cameron..back at you.

    141. Fred says:

      A benefit concert for Dick Gaughan at the end of January in Glasgow’s Old Fruit Market, Edinburgh ditto I think.

    142. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Jock Scot –

      It’s all too beautiful!

      Cheers brother – ma lugs were roastit an pure itchy right enough and now I ken why!

      Anyway, please enjoy this soo-perbness. Is there another music video where the performer uses an actual *box* of matches to light-up before he starts?

      Telly Savalas, ‘If’ –

    143. chasanderson200 says:

      Glenrothes gathering
      BDTT 8:57

      6/7 April was the weekend I had in mind and will be checking
      With the owner in the next few days. Will get back to you in a day or two.

      Thanks to all who made to Jollys, I fair enjoyed it. As a
      result I am bloody knacked so it is time for kip.
      Goodnight all.

    144. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      Chasanderson200 regretted, particularly, that you weren’t in The Ferry, coz, it seems, you are emailing each other regularly.

      Also, what happened to William Wallace? A search party, led by Cactus, went out to check for the beach party but he couldn’t be found.

      Mind you, that swan they brought back caused havoc in Jolly’s before it flew off.

    145. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Also peeps,

      This page,
      is STILL active (since 30th Oct). I replied to sensibledave tonight.

    146. cearc says:


      ‘That was a simply vile night in the Ferry, way above and beyond the bounds of common decency’

      Now look it wasn’t our fault that you ripped your shirt of in front of Paula Rose. What did you think she’d do? I reckon you got off lightly.

    147. Ellie says:

      Was lovely to meet you all last night! Thanks again for the badges, for making a newbie feel so welcome, and for the mention Brian. Feel part of the family now! X

    148. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –


      Brither, it’s a case of your messages bein too cryptic, elsewise ahm pished again.

      Ah know, ah know which is likeliest, but ah dinna get it aw the same.


    149. CameronB Brodie says:

      You were just an onlooker though and didn’t have to experience the reality of it. 😉

    150. Liz g says:

      Ellie @ 10.39
      It was a reply great night wasn’t it.

      Everybody was such good company and a special shout out to the two local Laddies who joined us.
      I hope that they make it on to this blog,they are a credit to Scotland,and their whole attitude not only makes me more determined to get them a future away from this rancid Union!
      But also gives me confidence that we have the young people to make an independent Scotland fly!!!give it Wing’s if ye like!!….. I know….. but it’s my turn to have a drink
      Anyhoo thanks everyone for being such good company and I hope that the Hangovers weren’t too bad!

    151. Chick McGregor says:

      Sorry we didn’t make it guys, but feeding, watering and pooper scooping 22 dogs this morning in a vicious and snell northerly wind on an exposed plain West of Kirrie for our friend made me grateful I was not also hungover.

      She is back home now, the medical scare thankfully being down to the medicine she received after a recent knee operation and not something more sinister.

    152. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      You threw me there when you played IF I expected this.

    153. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex C –


      Hope you’re happy with how it at all went last night.

      Sounds like it was a guid yin!


    154. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I’m still at last night. Waiting to come down 🙂

    155. Alex Clark says:

      I’ll bet none of you knew this Robert De Nero is a Winger check out his jacket while he gets an interview for a job as a Taxi Driver.

    156. William Wallace says:

      @ Brian 10:17pm

      The inevitable happened lol.

      Went to the wedding in Newcastle as planned. Had absolutely no intention of going to the reception and definitely no intention whatsoever of having a drink at said reception. I had every intention of staying sober and sneaking off early to head up the A1. The rest as they say… is history. 🙂

      Glad you all had a cracking night though. Was a pretty top night in Newcastle tae. Much needed. Will catch you all next time I suppose. Bit gutted I missed it but, also glad I stayed to catch up with old friends too.

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alex Clark
      Of course, none of this vileness would be possible without a particular Campbell. That’s somehow ironic, frankly.

      TheFatRat – Xenogenesis

      xenogenesis in British
      (?z?n??d??n?s?s ) or xenogeny (z??n?d??n?)
      1. the supposed production of offspring completely unlike either parent
      2. another name for abiogenesis, alternation of generations

      Did I take that too far? 😉

      William Wallace
      I was looking forward to meeting but I suppose we’ll just need to put that on hold, for the time being. You do know how to Madison?

      Did I take that too far? 🙂

    158. William Wallace says:

      @ Cam

      Eh dinnae ken how to Madison but eh do ken how to dae the slosh 😉

      Would have like to have met you tae (and the rest of you good fowk) but, eh wiz catching up wi really solid old pals. Boys eh grew up wi iy. Wanted to sneak aff but, eh wiz kinda hijacked. Eh’ll no miss the next gathering eh promise.

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      That’s the game. 🙂

      Re. the Yoonstream’s response to Slainte Media.

      How Free is the Russian Web?

      Social networks in Russian politics

      (The paper explores power relations in Russia and the corresponding structures of personalized trust on the base of an analysis of three different types of distinctions and relations: state (capacity) vs. society, institutionalized power vs. personalized power networks and institutional structures of trust vs. personalized networks of trust. The analysis of the importance of personal networks of power can be, as the case of Russia shows, presented as a compensation for the absence of strong institutions or institutionalized structures of trust. Moreover in “low trust societies” like Russia highly personalized power systems are not necessarily expressing only illegal or semi-legal structures of trust, they can, in an environment without institutionalized social capital forms, be also the engine for reforms.)

      Bob Marley & The Wailers – Exodus (unreleased)

    160. Jim Thomson says:

      *LOST & FOUND*

      To all the Jolly crew, especially those who enjoy a drag, one of their nice staff found a silver vaping thingy “One Lite” at the table where BDTT and Pete were parked.

      If any of you fine peeps has been struggling to find it, let Betty or me know and we’ll send it back to the rightful puffer.


    161. chasanderson200 says:

      Jim Thomson
      Ach, thats where eh left it. Just as well eh had a spare wi me.

      200 Woodside Road,
      Glenrothes, is where it bides.
      Cheers buddy, much appreciated.

    162. Jim Thomson says:


      Ya beauty! We have a winner/(winger).

      Nae bother. I’ll ask my lovely assistant to do the honours (she’s much neater than me when it comes to packaging stuff).

      Looking forward to April. 🙂

    163. chasanderson200 says:

      Cheers Jim.

      I had turned my hotel room upside down on Saturday night looking for it.

      A drink in the barrel for you in April.

    164. Cactus says:

      Aye aye ye Wingers of the Ferry ’17. Yes, we had a jolly good time indeed. Enjoyed meeting with ye all again, with the sharing of ideas and thoughts for the future of Scotland. Hogmanay ’17 at midnight will be interesting this year, when independent European countries all around this world are merryily singing about auld acquaintances and there’s a hand my trusty fiere n gie’s a hand o’ thine. Nobody knows or does it better than us. It’s ours and can never be taken away, courtesy of international Robert Burns. ‘THAT’ year will be our ‘HOMEcoming Hogmanay’ party.

      The top table sing-along and aftershow party were most excellent!

      Cheers again for having us all over to yours Alex, cool times.

      Off to read/catch up with the last four articles.


    165. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Posted a comment around 8:25pm tonight which WordPress has rejected.

      You can read it here:-

    166. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      Sounds like you had a rerr terr down Newcastle way!

      Anyway, have been meaning to pick your brains about your own work and some comments you’ve made (nothing heavy!) but I’m wondering if you wouldn’t mind establishing contact on e-mail? I’m working on something which I think *may* be of interest to you, and even if it isn’t I’d be very grateful for your thoughts on it, no matter how brief (or brutally honest!) they may be.

      Hoots brother.

      ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com

    167. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      ‘Circumjacent’ should be in The National XW on Saturday.


    168. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian.

      Nae bather bud! Will drop you an email the morrow.

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      Thanks for the swiftness of response. Soo-perb!

      Please feel free to attach examples of your work, if you wouldn’t mind my having a gander at them. Not sure if you do prose as well as the poetry but ahm up for a swatch at it all.

      There’s nowt nefarious about my motives here – just curious about your general take on matters literary, and esp interested in the ‘schemie’ angle.

      Looking forward to getting some fresh material tae ponder!

      Many hoots tae ye mister!


    170. Ruglonian says:

      Hey Cactus, good to see you finally back in the land of the living 😉

    171. Ruglonian says:

      Hey Ian B and all the other pals that weren’t able to make it up to BF on Saturday,

      There was talk about the next do, (as BDTT has already brought up) and also the idea of another house party – I held the first on the last Saturday of January and I’m happy to do so again unless anyone else is willing to assume the mantle?
      What’s folks thoughts?

    172. CameronB Brodie says:

      It might not be sporting to wind Torrance up but he’s not much use for anything else.

      Jackie Mittoo – Killer Diller (now with lovely dancers)

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      Looking forward to the next get-together myself.

    174. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      Here’s a freebie. The door’s open.

      Foucault, Gramsci and Critical Theory – Remarks on their Relationship Alex Demirovi? (Technical University, Berlin)

      Bringing Marx, Gramsci and Foucault together is not so common in Germany and this is reflected in the limited number of scholars who do such work. Most critical intellectuals who refer to one of these names usually exclude the other two. For example, those who consider Marx from the perspective of the so-called new reading of Marx (die Neue Marx Lektüre) show but little interest in
      most of the post-Marx-debates and would regard them as more or less misleading, ideological, and insufficiently radical.

      The same neglect holds for Gramsci, who is often seen by Marx scholars as the theoretician of the ‘historical compromise’. Likewise, Foucault is regarded as incompatible with their concern to reformulate and to restore Marx’ theory. For those refer to both Marx and Gramsci, Foucault is often seen as an unwitting or even deliberate supporter of neo-liberalism. Similarly, analysts of Foucault’s work obviously do not believe that the kind of analyses inspired by Marx – critical political economy, state theory, or critical theory of ideology – could contribute to “governmentality studies” or a critical history of the present. Things become even complicated if we bring Critical Theory into the picture….

      The Emancipatory Value of Habermas’ Critical Theory to Education


      Jürgen Habermas is well known not only for his prolific writings pertaining to Critical Theory but also for his revolutionary perspectives on human emancipation in the modern capitalist society. Among others, his theory of communicative action and his discourse ethics are most prominent and influential. They contribute to an ideal situation where humans can competently participate in democratic life and thus attain political emancipation. These theories have much potential for guiding both policymakers and practitioners in contributing to the success of educational change and reform projects.

      The Idea of Emancipation after Postcolonial Theory


      Via a critical reading of Saba Mahmood’s Politics of Piety, this essay argues the traditions of “history from below”, subaltern studies, and postcolonial feminist studies have issued in a series of conceptual difficulties around the idea of emancipation. Mahmood rightly criticizes the tendency of these traditions to conflate agency and resistance. Her own effort to decouple agency and desire from emancipatory politics, however, undercuts theory’s capacity to diagnose domination and ties theory too closely to the self-understandings of its subjects.

      Distinguishing appropriately between agency and freedom and between desire and interests can revivify the idea of emancipation. A universal interest in freedom from domination can be defended on this basis without discounting the self-understandings and actual desires of people. This argument points the way to a division of labour between emancipatory political theory, which analyses public institutions in the name of the universal interest in freedom, and emancipatory politics, which begins from people’s actual desires in order to build support for institutional change.

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Darren Loki McGarvey
      I’m feeling generous. Why not come and join in?

      Reason and Utopia
      Reconsidering the Concept of Emancipation in Critical Theory

      Introduction: What Does Emancipation Mean Today?

      In political and social theory the idea of emancipation has typically been understood in terms of a process of rationalization involving the promotion of human rights or the historical overcoming of capitalism. One of the clearest examples of such a concept of emancipation is the freedom of slaves that followed upon the so-called Emancipation Proclamation during the American Civil War. As such, the idea of emancipation can be understood on the basis of what Immanuel Kant once described as an Enlightenment project. As ever greater sections of the population acquire civil and political rights, formerly excluded groups gain the opportunity “to make public use of [their own] reason in all matters” and thus to liberate themselves from their “self-incurred immaturity.”1

      Do we need “identity politics”?
      Postmarxism and the critique of “pure particularism”

      Post-Marxism and the defence of univeralist particularity

      ….Žižek’s critique is a subtle yet nonethless brutal one. His claim is essentially that in celebrating the diffuse, contingent, dispersed identities thrown up under contemporary conditions the radical left has allowed itself to be seduced by the emancipatory promise of those new social movements that in the standard ‘left’ telling of the tale displaced class politics in the wake of 1968. Although Žižek does not himself go into the matter, it is perhaps worth rehearsing at this point the reasons why much of the left might have taken the turn that it has because it illustrates the postmarxian understanding of modernity more generally to which – as will become clear – Žižek also objects. We need to start therefore with an account of how it is that left politics came to see in identity politics the key to the realisation of its universalist goals and ambitions.

      The Selecter – Walk The Walk

    176. stuckinoz says:

      Hi folks

      I hope it’s not out of place in this section but not sure where else to ask. I’m looking for recommendations of books on scottish history that are relatively balanced and give an accurate portrayal of Scotland as a nation from birth to present day. As a product of the Scottish education system I am woefully uneducated on scottish history (having been taught little other than the history of world wars and oddly, Victorian England in school) and I wish to rectify this shortcoming asap.

      I’ve spent a bit of time looking on Amazon for decent books but want to make sure my reading is as balanced and accurate as possible (ie not written from a London perspective)

      Any wisdom or advice would be greatly appreciated


    177. Chas Anderson says:

      “How the Scots Invented the Modern World”.
      The true story of how Western Europes poorest nation created our world and everything in it.
      Arthur Herman Ph.D in history John Hopkins University. Published 2001.

      ISBN. 0-609-80999-7
      Brings you from circa 1500 to modern times. A “must-have” book for me.

    178. William Wallace says:

      @ Stuckinoz

      A very good question and maybe a good way to kick start some literary recommendations (on this subject and others) on off-topic.

      I have also been looking at ways to improve my own knowledge of our history other than what I have learned thus far but, I am wary of picking the wrong books with a skewed perspective.

      In relation to the book Chas posted above, you can get it in audio book format with an Amazon Audible free trial for 30 days (non prime member) or 3 months (for prime members) and listen to it for free. Just remember to cancel so you are not charged.

    179. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Most of my writing is still done in the conventional manner (pen and paper). Hardly any of it is typed up. It’s only in recent times that I have started to go digital with my musings. Much of my work (including a couple of half arsed / half finished books as well as copious amounts of shite poetry) lies tucked away in boxes in the attic.

      I have tried Scanners/OCR software and other methods to take the lazy approach to having my earlier work written up automatically in digital format but, with relatively little success. My partner has offered to help type it up in exchange for my assistance as a researcher for her current PhD. I’m trying to work out which will entail the most work and act accordingly. 😉 (I’m a lazy bar-steward) 🙂

      Going digital is something I have put off for a long time and even now I still prefer to work with pen and paper over a keyboard. It’s not that I’m a Luddite or technophobe but, just that words seem to flow better with a pen and paper and I feel more connected to my work when working in this way.

      That said, it is about time I created a digital record of my earlier work and perhaps your prompting me is the necessary catalyst for such an undertaking. I can start with some of my earlier poetry and share that with you as a first step and take it from there. It’s not directly Indy related but, a lot of it details my own experiences of growing up in the schemes.

      I have been writing some pro indy material in recent times and have been considering contacting certain groups to do some spoken word performances at indy gatherings and events. It’s been a long time since I took to the stage but, I feel I have not being doing anywhere near enough for the cause and perhaps it could be my way of stepping up and doing a wee bit more.

      To that end I could probably do with linking up with a couple of pro indy musicians to make it more palatable to the audience. Spoken word alone can sometimes be a bit boring for those watching/listening and music helps the message penetrate (If anyone here is musically minded and fancies teaming up for such a project please do get in touch).

      I need a distraction of sorts myself to break away from the amount of alcohol I have been consuming of late. I think I have been on something of a downer since the 19th of September 2014 and I really need to snap out of it. Maybe it’s time to get my arse to work instead of pissing around and playing the fool all the time.

      I’ll drop you a quick email the now so you have my email address.

    180. Tinto Chiel says:

      You might find some of these interesting for starters, stuckinoz:

      Warlords and Holy Men: A Smyth
      Kingship and Unity: GWS Barrow
      Independence and Nationhood:: A Grant
      As Antidote to the English: N MacDougall
      Scotland and the Union: D Daiches
      The Union of 1707: Why and How PH Scott
      1707 The Union of Scotland and England PH Scott
      Andrew Fletcher and The Treaty of Union: PH Scott
      The Rousing of the Scottish Working Class 1774-2008: James D Young
      The Very Bastards of Creation: James D Young
      The Myth of the Jacobite Clans: M Pittock
      Jacobitism: M Pittock
      Culloden: M Pittock
      Fight for a Throne: C Duffy
      Handful of Rogues: H MacMillan
      Thomas Muir of Huntershill: Carruthers and Martin
      The Great Highland Famine: T Devine

      The ironical thing about Herman’s book (or at least the edition I read) was that he seemed to oppose Scottish independence in the closing pages.

      As the Yanks say, go figure…..

      Or is my memory going?

    181. Tinto Chiel says:

      AN Antidote to The English, obvs.

    182. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi stuckinoz.

      I did a post this morning just after 7am. After submission, when I did “back” then “reload”, Chas’s 7.09 post appeared but not mine. As it is still not appearing I can only assume it is in WordPress’s trash can.

      You can read it at the link below – the entry dated 14th November.

    183. chasanderson200 says:

      Re my earlier post – the book by Herman covers a sufficient
      width and depth to provide an excellent framework to slot in all the other info you may already have or which you may acquire from the thousands of books which you will no doubt find out about from fellow wingers. It does not take any particularly party political standpoint.

      Odd that my name appeared as Chas Anderson above????

    184. Chick McGregor says:

      A very good book for beginners is ‘Scotland’s Story’ by the late Tom Steel.

      The reason being it was written for a Channel 4 series of the same name and the last such exercise before the great post 70’s scare induced nationalism purge really got under way in Scotland.

      Future historiographical analysis of how history writing has changed over the past 40 years in Scotland will be far more interesting than any of the logical contortions they have themselves concocted for their predecessors.

      While light in approach it is nevertheless full of factual information which, if you take sufficient interest in and time to verify from source, you will invariably discover is correct.

    185. stuckinoz says:

      @chas Anderson
      @wiiam Wallace
      @tinto chiel
      @brian doonthetoon
      @chick McGregor

      Thanks so much for the fantastic responses and suggestions – very much appreciated

      I’ll start with the Tom Steel and Arthur Herman books for a bit of an overview and move onto others from Tintos list depending on where my reading takes me.

      Thanks again – I’ll keep my eye on the thread to see if any other suggestions pop up as I like William Wallace suggestion of ongoing discussions around literary recommendations for Various topics

    186. Ruglonian says:

      I had a problem posting last night too, Brian 🙁

      Alex if you’re in, then it’s on!!
      Let’s say January 27th (until someone crops up and says they can’t make it)
      I actually love that song so it was a nice wee treat/message ta, but when I first saw the link I just assumed it was the two Kermys – you know what to do!

    187. chasanderson200 says:

      Wings get together in Glenrothes.
      I have spoken to the management of the Otters Head pub in Glenrothes about the 7th of April for our next soiree and will have it confirmed in the next few days.

      Watch this space in the next couple of days.

    188. Chick McGregor says:

      It is when we get things in OT like some of the recent posts here that I wish Wings catered more for different thread availability. One where various topics are served with their own receptical/archive.

      Mark Millar’s forum is a good example. You can go into area specific sub forums or you can view all category posts if you want. New posts are easily identified, your previous posts, any replies to them.

      I’ve been in it so long I can’t remember if a sign up is required but here is a url which should open in the creative section for example. If you use the small window at the top you can change to another section or click on all categories so you get all new posts.

      Pretty sure there could still be an article of the day permanent top thing for main comments of the day.

    189. Alex Clark says:

      I posted a link on the MT to Alex Salmond being interviewed tonight on C4 by Jon Snow over his new show to be broadcast on RT.

      artyhetty stated that it was not an interview more like an interrogation and artyhetty is right when you watch it again.

      So anyway it reminded me of a story my old man told me many years ago and I was going to post on the MT but this is a more suitable place for personal anecdotes.

      In the spring of 1980 my old man got a job in Baghdad, he was a welder working on the construction of a new oil refinery just outside of the city. Money and accommodation were good and he was away for 3 months and home for 1.

      One day he’s working away in a pump room welding some pipes and accidentally set fire to some rags that were lying around. The fire set off alarms and the eventual outcome was that he was arrested by the Iraqi police and accused of sabotage.

      Tensions were high and just a few months later in Sep 1980 a war lasting 8 years would break out between Iran and Iraq. So when it came to him being “interviewed” at the police station it was a Captain of the Iraqi army that carried out this interview.

      I’ll be brief:

      Iraqi Captain “You are working for the Iranians”
      Old Man “Is that right”

      Iraqi Captain “Your purpose here was to sabotage the refinery”
      Old Man “Is that right”

      Iraqi Captain “We’re going to lock you up and throw away the key”
      Old Man “Is that right”

      Iraqi Captain “Say that once more and you will be beaten”
      Old Man “Is that right”

      Haha this is a true story, he wasn’t beaten and released the next day when his company paid $500 and a bottle of whisky directly to the police chief of the station he was held in.

      3 months later Iraq were at war with Iran and my old man never went back.

    190. Cactus says:

      Glasgow callin’ ye on oor motorway number eight…

      Callin’ ye east side neighbour..

      Hey EDINBURGH!

      What you saying?

      What say U?

      Talk to Glasgow.

    191. Cactus says:

      That was fun 🙂

      Still is.


    192. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      That’s a great story. I can see why you were reminded of it by that interview.

      Thanks for putting up the link. What a disgraceful performance by Jon Snow – here’s hoping he feels suitably ashamed today when he sees some of the reaction.

    193. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, Ian, I watched Alex’s link too.

      Oooooooh, the Sainted Jon becomes Vlad The Impaler! People should remember who actually has the big stake (no pun intended) in C4.

      Thought Alex swatted him pretty well.

      All these attacks will simply boost interest in his programme, unless WM withdraws RT’s licence PDQ: seems the USA is heading that way.

      Free speech, ya bass?


    194. Tinto Chiel says:

      Meant to add:this may tickle your collective funny bone, or not, as the case may be.

      Warning: Sir (hem,hem) Billy Connelly has a few seconds exposure.

      Tribute to Jackie Bird?–U&

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      @David Leask
      Those are dangerous waters you are treading. Are you looking to promotet discrimination or close down pluralism of debate?


      The principles of social psychology, including the ABCs—affect, behavior, and cognition—apply to the study of stereotyping, prejudice, and discrimination, and social psychologists have expended substantial research efforts studying these concepts (Figure 11.2). The cognitive component in our perceptions of group members is the stereotype—the positive or negative beliefs that we hold about the characteristics of social group. We may decide that “French people are romantic,” that “old people are incompetent,” or that “college professors are absent minded.” And we may use those beliefs to guide our actions toward people from those groups.

      In addition to our stereotypes, we may also develop prejudice—an unjustifiable negative attitude toward an outgroup or toward the members of that outgroup. Prejudice can take the form of disliking, anger, fear, disgust, discomfort, and even hatred—the kind of affective states that can lead to behavior such as the gay bashing you just read about. Our stereotypes and our prejudices are problematic because they may create discrimination—unjustified negative behaviors toward members of outgroups based on their group membership.

    196. Fred says:

      @ Alex, was your Old-Man in Bagdad when you were in Dadsbag? 🙂

    197. Ruglonian says:

      Just caught up with that Jon Snow interview of Alex Salmond – wow 🙁

      Did anyone else catch the “Philby” bit at the end?
      I was annoyed at the ill-informed “Russians paid more” stuff, but that nasty wee quip at the end, and it’s connotations – so disappointing.

      From now on the only Jon Snow I’m interested in is from Game Of Thrones 😉

    198. William Wallace says:

      Abody deid or what?

      Communicating on the Clique Channel again? 😉

      Eh’m no providing the entertainment any mair if indeed eh ever did. Meh day’s o being the class idiot are done (well sometimes) 😉 Cameos o Scheme Life.

      This time “It’s serious”

    199. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cultures, religions and truth are all under fire from #alt-journalist, who pose a significant threat to plural democracy and social cohesion.

      Inclusion and exclusion in the Information Society

      1.1. In/exclusion is multi-dimensional

      Exclusion is often discussed in a rather one-dimensional sense, that is, in relation to participation in economic life. However relevant, exclusion can take place in many other dimensions of everyday life as well: the political, cultural, social as well as the economical. From civic engagement and political rights such as voting, to be elected in a representative function or to demonstrate, cultural citizenship or the right to express and enhance one’s own identity, to ordinary processes that take place in everyday life, social welfare and well being, all are areas and aspects of the everyday where inequality and exclusion can take place. Strategies that focus on ICT should take into account all these different aspects of exclusion, including the exclusion that relates to communication, information and signification.

      ‘Liking and Sharing’ the Stigmatization of Poverty and Social Welfare: Representations of Poverty and Welfare through Internet Memes on Social Media

      Abstract: Internet memes play an important role in the reproduction, reinforcement and circulation of social stereotypes, including those about people who live in poverty. In this paper we investigate the relationship between Internet memes and stereotypes about poverty by examining a set of memes that make claims about one particular aspect of poverty in high-income countries – receipt of social assistance in the form of welfare cheques, medical coverage and food. We apply critical discourse analysis to a set of widely circulated poverty memes to identify how notions of individual responsibility and deservedness surface in these messages. Whereas the memes in our sample consist of both visual and textual elements, we found that the text was decidedly more important for reproducing stereotypes linked to the abstract neoliberal values of individual responsibility and participation in market economy.

      Experience of discrimination, social marginalisation and violence: A comparative study of Muslim and non-Muslim youth in three EU Member States

      Executive summary

      Links between social marginalisation, violence and fundamental rights

      ….The main finding of the study suggests a strong relationship between experiences of violence and discrimination; namely those who reported in the questionnaire survey (Appendix II) that they were discriminated against were significantly more likely to have also experienced emotional (this could be teasing, bullying, or the like) and physical violence, both as a victim and as a perpetrator. In addition, those who had experienced these forms of violence were significantly more likely to feel alienated or socially marginalised. This was equally the case for young people from a Muslim and non-Muslim background. This indicates that the experience of discrimination or violence is not necessarily related to religious background. This conclusion is supported by the analysis of results from the research.

      4.7. Reasons for involvement in emotional and physical violence

      ….Overall, the relationship between victimisation and offending for emotional violence was stronger among the French and the United Kingdom respondents than among the young people in the Spanish sample. Figure 4.16 shows a reasonably clear pattern in the data, which suggests that it was more common for perpetrators of emotional violence to be also victims than it was for victims to be also perpetrators – bearing in mind that the two groups may constitute different respondents in the survey. This was true of Muslim and non-Muslim youths in the United Kingdom and Spain, although only true of non-Muslim youths in France. The French Muslims who had been victims of emotional violence were more likely to be perpetrators than the perpetrators were to be victims.

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Perhaps if you had turned up at your own beach-party. 😉

      Sonny Cleveland – Goodness

    201. Tinto Chiel says:

      And now for something completely different:

      I’m away goat nadgering now.

      C ya, chinas.

    202. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Ah see, it’s like that, it’s like that – Well I will tell you this boy… 😉

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Jim Hagart
      Re. Alex Salmond, RT and propoganda. As you are a retired lecturer, you should have the time and intelectual skill needed to keep your epistemology up-to-date. The ‘status quo’ does not deserve to be maintained and is impossible to maintain, as a result of the march of time.

      Emancipate yourself.


      Democracy, Power, and Legitimacy: The Critical Theory of Jürgen Habermas

      Chapter 7 Constitutional Patriotism as an Answer to the Problems of Diversity and Solidarity (pp. 151-174)

      So far in my assessment of Habermas?s pursuit of the ideals of justice and democracy I have shown that while his theory?s discursive method and its communicative aims foster a critical character and give it an open-ended approach consistent with our post-metaphysical condition, this character and this approach are compromised as a result of a shift inBetween Facts and Normsthat marks the theory?s new orientation towards the ?real, existing democracy? as opposed to the one that is yet to come. The modern life of liberal states is marked by a multiplicity of world views and rapid changes in…

    204. CameronB Brodie says:

      I made a total hash of that formatting. Anyway, a wee introduction that’s worth a read.

      William 😉

      The Pretenders – Don’t Get Me Wrong

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Jim Hagart
      Re. your emancipation, are you so naive as to think the BBC impartial?

      The mass media, democracy and the public sphere


      Carpignano et al. (1990) argue that in audience discussion programmes:

      The crisis of the bourgeois public sphere is fully visible and displayed in front of our eyes. The crisis of representational democracy is the crisis of the traditional institutions of the public sphere, the party, the union etc., and most importantly, the present mass refusal of politics. If we think about the reconstitution of a public sphere in terms of the revitalization of old political organizations…then the embryonic discursive practices of a talk show might appear interesting, but ultimately insignificant…but if we conceive of politics today as…consolidated in the circulation of discursive practices rather than formal organizations, then a common place that formulates and propagates common senses and metaphors that govern our lives might be at the crossroad of a reconceptualization of collective practices.
      (Carpignano et al. 1990:54)

      This view captures the ambivalence of many towards the potential of the mass media. Optimists and pessimists base their cases on different and opposed constructions of modernity (Seidman, 1990): one can analyse the media as part of the secular, millennial myth of progress or as part of the apocalyptic myth of darkness and decline. For the pessimistic approach of the critical theorists of the Frankfurt School, rationality is lost as mass culture increasingly dominates popular consciousness, offering only a consumerist culture to satisfy false, commodified desires. Some would argue that a culture of critical discourse still exists, both in academia and also as a strand surviving in public organizations and the mass media (Gouldner, 1976).

    206. CameornB Brodie says:

      @Jim Hagart
      In what way does Russian media differ substantively from British media? In what way is Britain morally superior Russia?

      Emancipate yourself.

      #Iraq, Libya, Yemen etc.


      Divergent Development Paths

      The public has an important feedback, to the media via audience and circulation, to the government through elections or opinion polls. The question is why should governments care about media, if they can buy or bully it at their will? The model suggests two important answers to this question.

      The first is on the role of the international community. As EU accession progresses or non-EU countries ask for foreign assistance (such as grants from Millennium Corporation) the cost of repressing the media grows and becomes unaffordable for any government but an isolated one, which either does not care for the opinion of the international community or is able to buy a good one by resources (such as oil or gas). Capture develops as a substitute, but Freedom House Nations in Transit or IREX Sustainability Index developed precisely in order to be able to look at media freedom more qualitatively.

      The second explanation refers to the direct feedback of the public to the government, as presented in the model. In electoral democracies or in times when revolutions occur as ‘waves’, only be popular governments can afford to defy the media. Some governments, such as Putin’s or Lukashenko’s,
      had enough resources to subsidize household energy and come up with a variety of perks for the public. These governments will not be brought down by the media, as they are genuinely popular. The largest share of the budget of the city of Rostov, in Southern Russian Federation, is used to cover utilities bills from private households: the majority of inhabitants are beneficiaries. A comparable city, Bucharest in Romania dedicates less than 3 per cent to the same purpose, at a comparable purchasing parity power of the population. But most countries cannot afford such strategies, as they do not have the natural resources.

      In those countries the voters’ feedback is likely to work and the media can be very influential. The three paths of the relations between media and government in figure 1 thus amount to three government strategies: 1. direct control through repression 2. indirect control through capture 3. accommodation. The third strategy might be inspired by genuine concern on how to sell policy acts to the media or incorporate the views of public opinion into policy, as well as by rational calculations of how to ‘look good’ to the media.,id=704/9781841501932.85.pdf

      If only there was some way in which Scotland could utilise it’s natural wealth and resources for the benefit of Scotland.

    207. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for fans of emancipation. 🙂

      Alex Ander & Pete Simpson – “Your Freedom” (Motown Mix)–4

    208. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Blair McDougall
      Feeling the fear yet stooge? How’s your tube Dunc getting on?

      Global Media, Neoliberalism, and Imperialism

      Understood as one of neoliberalism rather than simply globalization, the current era seems less the result of uncontrollable natural forces and more as the newest stage of class struggle under capitalism. The anti-democratic implications, rather than being swept under the rug as they are in conventional parlance, move to the front and center. Here, I should like to sketch out the main developments and contours of the emerging global media system and their political-economic implications. I believe that when one takes a close look at the political economy of the contemporary global media and communication industries, we can cut through much of the mythology and hype surrounding our era, and have the basis for a much more accurate understanding of what is taking place, and what socialists must do to organize effectively for social justice and democratic values.

      How neoliberal states use mass media to dehumanize the Muslim world

      Neoliberalism in practice defies democracy

      Although in theory, neoliberalism propagates democracy and individual freedom, in practice, the opposite occurs. Western states that support neoliberalism have often used politics and military intervention around the world in order to maximise their own profit and have posed a challenge and/or threat to states that refuse to embrace the dominant neoliberal model. Thus, neoliberal fundamentalists, such as the US in many cases, end up defying democracy in order to spread neoliberalism to other countries. A true democracy would reflect what the majority of people want, but in a neoliberal approach, the focus is on what a minority of elite corporations want, which is an oligarchy rather than a democracy (Gould, 2008).

      Here’s one for indigenous people and independents everywhere.

      Paul Kelly – From Little Things Big Things Grow

    209. Marie Clark says:

      Hi Fella’s, well it seems like the chaps are the only ones here at the moment. Anyone know if Nana is okay as she’s been missing this week. Her daily links are gie adictive.

      Quiet aboot here wi oot Smallaxe, I really miss his daft sense of fun. Peace & love to him and Mrs Smallaxe if they’re reading O/T, I know that he is unable to post anymore but I hope that he has a wee look in now and again.

      Tinto, watch it wie the goat nadgering, we dinnae want ye tae get lifted fur it. Careful now.

    210. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Marie Clark –

      Good to see your happy wee coupon!

      I’m sure Smallaxe and his much better-looking ither half are keeping a beady proverbial on us all, and just as well! (It’s come to a sorry pass if the vastly-respected Tinto of The Chiel has taken to nadgering goats…)

      Look…tomorrow is Friday, and that means later tomorrow, i.e. after 7 or 8-ish will be Friday ‘night’, right?

      So why don’t we make it a date tae have a wee WOS O/T Friday Night shindig, just like we did in the auld days?

      Whether we like it or not, WOS is now so long-established that it’s quite legitimate to reminisce!

      If I don’t hear from you otherwise I shall assume that the invitation is accepted and we shall see you suggesting some danceable tunes this time tomorrow!

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    211. Ruglonian says:

      I’m in Ian!

      See you tomorrow for a night full of feminist debate and Leonard Cohen music
      (just what my twitter notifications have been full of last week – actually the LC is always a welcome distraction) 🙂

    212. CameronB Brodie says:

      A bit of a danger seeker here, can I get the ball rolling? 🙂

      Feminist Perspectives and International Relations

      Paper: Perspectives on International Relations and World History

      1.3.3 The State

      The state has been conceptualised by the different theoretical models as a reflection of sovereignty and men are sovereign, while women needs the protection of sovereignty. The feminist IR views these perceptions as being highly problematic as it leads to the natural assumptions of Men being identified with the public realm as the harbinger’s of order, while women are identified with private thinking or anarchy. Therefore any feminist power is seen as the main principle the source of threats to the international system in Realist and Liberal thought.

    213. Cactus says:

      Morning all, ah found a couple of photos on me phone from the top table at Jolly’s and some of others waiting on the ferry 🙂 I can e-mail a couple of the Jolly ones on to anyone who has my contact.

      Have a merry Friday the 17th November 2017.

      The weekend begins and continues here.

      iScotland soon.

    214. Marie Clark says:

      Morning folks. Ian Brotherhood @ 10.36, your on Ian. I’ll see you later this evening, I must look out something music wise.

      I hope oor very ain Tinto can make it, he usually likes a wee dance. That’s if he’s finnished wae the goats. Whit a man.

      See you all later. Bye.

    215. Tinto Chiel says:

      So nice to see you on here, Marie. It’s been quiet here of late, although CameronB and I had a nice evening with those charming young ladies, The Coconuts. Cocktails and Kirkegaard can be a heady mixture.

      Don’t worry about the goat-nadgering, it’s an old custom of upland Lanarkshire and is regarded as an art-form in some circles. My maternal granny did it and she smoked a pipe!

      “Vastly respected”: that’s an outrageous accusation, sirrah!

      I’ve got some new dancing pumps so might drop in later tonight, though I’ve never danced to Old Leonard C.

      Off to look out my gold lame hot pants. They’re getting a bit tight…

    216. Tinto Chiel says:

      Just limbering up:

      IanB put this on a few days ago. Quite amazing dancing. Mind you, it’s easy when you’re young and beautiful:

      Ou sont les neiges, d’antan, eh, chinas?

    217. Nana says:


      I’m back for a bit! Had some anxious days, hospital treatment and tests to get through.

      Might have to take the occasional break from now on, hopefully just a day or two here and there.

      Keep taking the tablets people.

    218. Tinto Chiel says:

      Great video, Nana. Reminded me of my old staff room, hehe.

      Sorry you’ve had a rough time and hope you’re on the mend.

    219. Nana says:


      Aha all becomes clear. I’ve had my suspicions over the years about a couple of teachers I know…mmm

      Is it goat thingy time again already? and you planning on wearing gold llama hot pants. Those goats are in for a treat [or a hell of a shock]

      I can hardly wait to see your disco trot to Leonard Cohen. Just hope I can stay awake during the whole routine. Wouldn’t want to miss it!

    220. Marie Clark says:

      Nana, nice to see you back. Sorry you’ve had an anxious time, see and look after yourself. Christmas is coming and it’s a busy time for we ladies as you know.

      Be still my beating heart, Tinto in the gold lame hot pants. Better get the sal volatilie looked oot in case Nana and I have a fit of the vapours don’t cha know.

    221. Nana says:


      Things are certainly ‘hotting’ up around these here parts. I’m fair flustered at the thought of Tinto’s routine, can hardly concentrate on the ironing [any excuse not to tackle it is ok with me] Steam everywhere I tell ye!

      Sal volatile may indeed be required or perhaps having a fire extinguisher to hand may not be a bad idea.

    222. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ruglonian –


      Hoots indeed.

      I had to bail out of the Twitteration last night and get some kip, awoke to 78 notifcations! Must’ve got a bit frantic in the wee sma’ hours.

      Anyway, much looking forward to having a virtual party in here this evening. I’ve been working on my magnificent novel this week and for most of this afternoon I will have to be ‘in character’ as a narrator who just happens to be a properly mouth-breathing Weegie orange bigot, a Mason Boyne without the charm. Takes me a while to get into the right ‘mode’ to do such stuff, and an equal length of time to shake it off, so by that time I’ll be raring to get my white suit on and hit the floor, fortified, nae doots, by some soon-to-be-impossibly-expensive hooch.


      😉 🙂 🙂

    223. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Nana and Marie: thanks for your well-judged remarks about my smouldering sensuality but there’s been a wee complication on the hotpants front.

      Unfortunately, the rural polis don’t seem to share my socially-progressive attitudes to goat-nadgering as an art-form and I may be detained for a while yet. I’ve tried The Banksy Plea but so far to no avail.

      This ain’t the first time. While a student I worked behind the bar at an East End hostelry known as the New Monaco Bar (White Tornado was the cocktail du jour there) and produced a slim but exquisite volume of poetic musings on my experiences, entitled “Tinto on Tap”.

      Unfortunately, owing to a simple misunderstanding with the Glesca Vice Squad, the entire print run was unaccountably confiscated.

      Truly, a prophet is without honour in his own country and where there is no vision, the people perish.

      Meanwhile, girls: GET ME BELTRAMI!

    224. Nana says:

      Ach Tinto, I fear what you’ve been up to will be far too ‘tame’ for Beltrani to get involved with.

      Let us know if you require anything while detained. Perhaps some marag dubh or semtex. Mind you some marags I’ve eaten have had the same effect as semtex.

      As for Tinto on tap, do you have any illicit copies hidden away. Might be the ideal stocking fillers for the festive season. I’m looking for gift ideas for a ‘retired gentleman’

    225. Tinto Chiel says:

      Your kind words are all the succour, I need, Nana. I’m actually off the old marag dubh to keep the body beautiful for my spring mankini collection.

      If the *hem* “retired gentleman” is who I’m a-thinking of I don’t think a man of probity and rectitude like wot he is would find the material of interest, if such stuff still existed, of course.

      Harvey and are still laughing at Corporal Harrison getting the POTY award.

      I could get used to this White Tornado. A bit cheeky, but there are hints of damson and truffle in the bouquet.

    226. Marie Clark says:

      Ach naw Tinto, hiv ye gone and goat yersel lifted? Hells bells man. Dae we need to bake a cake wi a file in it? Beltrami, well there’s a blast from the past. It was always said, if you needed to get Joe, you were guilty onywies. Allegedly me lud, allegedly.

      You in the gold lame hot pants was to be the highlight of the day. You’ve got Nana and I all hot and bothered, and now you might let us down. Whit a disappointment, aw.

    227. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Whit a disappointment, aw!”

      Words which spring to the lips of Mrs TC almost daily, Marie. Apparently she’s rattled the old gas metre so bail’s no problem.

      I know Smallaxe said I still had the lallies for them but I may give the hot pants the old heave-ho. Think my new look should suggest mysterious allure at my age.

      Thanks for the kind words.

      *Wipes away a manly tear*

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      Where will this all end? 🙂

      Pornland – Seduction

    229. Tinto Chiel says:

      Heehee, Cameron: don’t know where you find ’em.

      Am I walking a bit funny after my incarceration?

    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel 🙂

      Of course, there are many different walks of life and it’s up to our own individual conscious agency to choose which is right for ourselves. Except Scots when it comes to self-determination obvs.

      The problem of agency in feminism: a critical realist approach


      In a recent paper, members from the London Feminist Salon Collective reflected on the vexed problem of agency in poststructuralist theory and asked, ‘as feminist educational researchers, where do we go from here?’ The issue remains pressing as agency, both individual and collective, is at the heart of the feminist, and indeed, all radical political projects. The attractions of poststructuralist theorizing for many feminists has been its decisive break with logocentrism. However, from the 1980s onwards, feminists were pointing to the problems poststructuralism presented in theorizing the nature of agency. In this paper I will argue that we should adopt a different theoretical starting point.

      Drawing heavily on the work of Margaret Archer, I will argue that critical realism has much to offer theories of political action. While acknowledging the enormous contribution of feminist scholars working within a poststructuralist paradigm, I will argue that the epistemological and ontological assumptions at the heart of poststructuralist theory render it incapable of providing a framework for what Archer calls the enchantment of being human. This enchantment, and the rich resources of a conceptualization of agency based on the primacy of practice, provides a stronger basis for theorizing feminist research, practice and being

      Patrick Hernandez – Born to be alive a slave

    231. Tinto Chiel says:

      I was with you all the way, Cameron, until I got to this nugget: “While acknowledging the enormous contribution of feminist scholars working within a poststructuralist paradigm, I will argue that the epistemological and ontological assumptions at the heart of poststructuralist theory render it incapable of providing a framework for what Archer calls the enchantment of being human.”

      *Strokes chin meaningfully*

      Hmmmmmm. Not sure about that. That is, I’m not sure I understand it at all……

      I believe tonight is the Bent Broadcasting Corporation’s Children in Need appeal. Can I just make the perhaps obvious point that, if they had given a flying Carmichael about children’s welfare, they would not have turned a blind-eye to the activities of a gross paedophile and given him programmes which ensured decades-long access to children?


      I’d also like a swatch at their accounts for all the dosh they get for their appeal, where tax-dodging celebrities lap up the warm adulation of the unthinking plebs for doing it all for chariddy when all I want from them is to pay their tax like the rest of us.

      Pass the boak bucket, chinas.

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      Don’t blame me mate, that’s the way Gender and Education scholars talk. I was trying to point to the blend of feminist and rationalist theory as being an emancipator combination. 😉

      And don’t get me started on neo-liberal TV specials selling charity guilt in an age of neo-liberal oligarchy. ;(

      The Soul Machine – Twitchie Feet

    233. Tinto Chiel says:

      No blame, CameronB, mon vieux, just an admission of my deficiencies.

      “And don’t get me started on neo-liberal TV specials selling charity guilt in an age of neo-liberal oligarchy.”

      Now, I get THAT!

      Y’see, I can be taught…..


    234. Tinto Chiel says:

      Before the jiggin’ starts, could I encourage a little introspection?

    235. Marie Clark says:

      Okay, where is abody. Very classy piece Tinto, and here’s another one. Come oan Nana, let’s go for the girls.

    236. Marie Clark says:

      EM, Hiv a goat the wrang night fur the gay and hearty. Oh weel.

    237. Tinto Chiel says:

      Jeezo, Marie, did you have to mention “goat”? I’m in enough trouble!

      For all you lurkers and shy ‘uns:

      Get down on it.

    238. Ian Brotherhood says:


      All puffed-out, not Long in after being waylaid to do unexpected shopping trip for the old dear, getting some Christmas stuff in. Tesco is doing a very good deal, big box of Family Circle for £2.50. Canny go wrang wi that! Abody likes a jammy dodger…

      I know a lot of us got hacked-off with Bowie for *that* comment pre-indyref. On the credit side, was reading somewhere that he was twice offered honours (one of which was a knighthood) and he refused them, saying he didn’t understand what they were all about and they had nothing to do with his work. Fair do’s.

      Anyway, as a Bowiephile I thought I’d seen most of his outfits over the years, but I had never *ever* seen this one, oooh, half an hour ago. Check this out –

      Bowie, ‘Jean Genie’ (1973) –

    239. Ruglonian says:

      Just nailed this for the first time on the guitar, so that’s my party piece over with nice and early 😉

      (Lenny will no doubt make an appearance later on)

    240. Ian Brotherhood says:

      One for Smallaxe and Mrs Smallaxe, if they happen to drop by…

      …and if ye’s do see this, feel the love from Ayrshire, from Glasgow, from aw ower the fekkin place!



      Skip Marley, ‘Lions’ –

    241. Ruglonian says:

      This is more suitable for a party – well depending on your style 😉

    242. Marie Clark says:

      Oh sorry Tinto, I’ll no mention that word again. Try this out, and I hope it does not get you into more soapy bubble with Mrs TC.

    243. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ruglonian –

      Yur links ur broke so they ur!

      @TC (9.07) –

      What I always loved about Kool & The Gang was that they looked as if they were enjoying themselves all the time, which simply isn’t possible given the amount of touring they did (and still do!). They always appeared to be full of the joys. I like to think that here, on OT, we fulfil a similar function in the indy movement overall – ain’t nothing ever gonna get us down or make us frown!

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      You feel me?

      In any case, get some of this mentalness:

      Daft Punk, ‘Da Funk’ –

    244. CameronB Brodie says:

      Vile seps.

      Hope – Power Of Love

    245. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      On this musical evening, I will offer this…
      The British Eurovision winner that was deleted from the record of winners. Just ‘coz he was a local guy from Whitley Bay who didn’t conform.

      Of course, leading up to that, he did his own “melody” of Eurovision winners to whet our appetites.

      When did England stop producing such talent?

    246. Ruglonian says:


      Ian I’ve never been able to post links successfully.
      I’ve just considered that the problem may be that I’m copying the url from the YouTube app, but I don’t really know?
      If this one doesn’t work (which I took from the desktop site) then I’m giving up!

    247. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruglonian.

      Your YouTube links should look like mine above.

    248. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruglonian.

      Your YouTube links should look like mine above. Just delete the http:// before you submit. WordPress adds that bit automatically.

    249. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruglonian.

      Your YouTube links should look like mine above. Just delete the “http://” before you submit. WordPress adds that bit automatically.

    250. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      See? You never know whether your submission has been binned or just delayed by WordPress. In this case, it was delay. Sorry for repitition…

    251. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ruglonian –

      Ayw, as BDTT said…

      Or, another way of putting it…

      When you’ve got the thing you want to copy, just go to it in the ‘search’ box and click so’s it aw goes blue, then Control C…

      Back to WOS OT, click in yer box, Control V…the whole thing will appear…

      just scroll across all the http bit, right up to the first word of the link you want to appear, and delete that stuff.

      That’s it!

      Don’t give up G, we *need* to see your funky stuff!!

      😉 🙂 🙂

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, the liberal paradox is the liberalism encourages illiberal and unethical forms of governmental practice.

      Selo i Lyudy – It’s my life

    253. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Ruglonian I see your stuff is not getting through alright. Hope you manage it in the Future.

    254. CameronB Brodie says:

      It might have something to do with you posting from a mobile device?

      Here’s one for those stocking up on popcorn.

      Leon Haywood – Soul cargo

    255. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood this should take you back a few years.

    256. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Michael McCabe –

      🙂 🙂 🙂


      Always loved the Boney M.


      Yon dude wis blessed, an he knew it, ye could see it in his face. He couldny dance fur toffee but he wisny givin a fuck. An who could blame him?

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    257. Ruglonian says:

      Right I’ve nudged him out of his seat so I can use the computer and try another link (this has been bugging me for years now).

      Cheers guys for all the input, here goes;

      A wee number for Alex, last week’s gracious host x

    258. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ruglonian –



      Aye – got it.

      Is that you singing?

    259. Alex Clark says:

      @Michael McCabe

      It takes me back a few years to when you the Wings DJ, where you been anyway?

      You’ve been missed, so this is for you from me and in colour LOL

    260. Ruglonian says:


      Ian – man I wish I could sing like her, or even hold a note 🙁
      I can play it though and I thoroughly enjoy this version – it’s brilliant when someone nails a cover better than the original.

      That would make for an interesting theme night actually

    261. Alex Clark says:

      @Ruglonian @Ian Brotherhood

      Friday night so this is for you, all Wingers and all of Scotland.

    262. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruglonian at 12:22 am.

      You typed,
      “it’s brilliant when someone nails a cover better than the original.

      That would make for an interesting theme night actually”

      OK, here you are. The definitive version of this Supremes song. B
      ack in ’67/68/69, every local band that possessed an organ player, attempted this.

    263. Alex Clark says:

      This one’s for Billy and Sybil especially. Original version of “Valerie” from the Caribbean in 1966.

    264. Ruglonian says:

      Alex & Brian – they were both brilliant, and I hadn’t heard them before.
      He’s taken back his computer (& is currently playing guitar along with a video of Mark Knofler – local hero theme) so no more links from me.

      Heard about Kezia going into the jungle programme?
      You couldn’t make it up 🙁 – she’ll surely have to resign as a MSP?

    265. Michael McCabe says:

      Another Abba cover but you can hardly tell the difference ?

    266. Alex Clark says:

      Thinking I might have fell myself there for “fake news” with the Caribbean Valerie recording. C’mon we all make mistakes lol.

    267. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Soulettes – a deh pon dem (I’m on to them)

    268. CameronB Brodie says:

      Easy to do Alex.

      The Wailing Wailers – Who Feels It (Knows It)

    269. Michael McCabe says:

      Here is Prince with Sting & Ronny Wood Covering Miss you by the Rolling Stones at Wembley Arena 1986

    270. CameronB Brodie says:

      Steel Pulse – New World Order

    271. Michael McCabe says:

      I wish you all a great weekend and I will leave you with Tash Sultana-Jungle

    272. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hope you have a good one as well Michael.

      Kutiman – Mix Tel Aviv

    273. Tinto Chiel says:

      Marie: you’ve got to admire Antonio’s smoulder, don’t you? And what a mover. Charming young lady too: wonder if she’d be interested in my work on Celtic place-names of Lanarkshire?

      Dark secret (true, dis): I actually have a couple of GOTAN Project CDs. Believe it or not, my GP recommended tangoing for a muscle injury. I’m now immune to rose-thorns in the lips too.

      Yes, K&TG really seem to enjoy themselves Ian. Mind you, it’s easy if your music is joyous. I’m also biased because after a certain cup final in 1991, they played Celebration after the live TV broadcast (sorry, Alex Clark).

      Lovely morning, so off down the bird reserve with my noculars.

      Black-tailed godwits, ya bass.

    274. cearc says:

      Well that was a jolly evening, shame about the beer on the carpet.

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just in case folk still aren’t convinced that Dave holds racist beliefs, you need to remember that all genders, sexuality and cultures have equal value. It is not possible to preference some over others without being sexist or racists.

      British nationalism preferences English culture. It is the articulation of an assumed cultural supremacy over the Celtic peoples of the British isles. British nationalism is intrinsically racist against the non-English.

      Culture, Class, and Critical Theory


      Culture, Class, and Critical Theory develops a theory of culture that explains how ideas create and legitimate class inequalities in modern society. This theory is developed through a critique and comparison of the powerful ideas on culture offered by Pierre Bourdieu and the Frankfurt School thinkers, especially Theodor Adorno. These ideas are illuminated and criticized through the development of two empirical cases on which Gartman has published extensively, automobile design and architecture.

      Bourdieu and the Frankfurt School postulate opposite theories of the cultural legitimation of class inequalities. Bourdieu argues that the culture of modern society is a class culture, a ranked diversity of beliefs and tastes corresponding to different classes. The cultural beliefs and practices of the dominant class are arbitrarily defined as superior, thus legitimating its greater share of social resources. By contrast, the thinkers of the Frankfurt School conceive of modern culture as a mass culture, a leveled homogeneity in which the ideas and tastes shared by all classes disguises real class inequalities. This creates the illusion of an egalitarian democracy that prevents inequalities from being contested.

      Through an empirical assessment of the theories against the cases, Gartman reveals that both are correct, but for different parts of modern culture. These parts combine to provide a strong legitimation of class inequalities.

      Critical Cultural Approaches to Gender and Sex

      Summary and Keywords

      Within the field of communication studies, critical cultural scholarship examines the interarticulation of power and culture. Drawing from critical theory and cultural studies, this research offers analysis of texts, artifacts, practices, and institutions in order to understand their potential to promote or preempt equality and social justice. Critical theory, which has Marxist origins, uses theory as a basis for critiquing and challenging systems of domination or oppression. The field of cultural studies focuses on social formations with a particular emphasis on media texts and the reception practices of audiences. Both critical theory and cultural studies emphasize the important interrelationship between ideology, or structures of belief, and the material conditions in which people live. Critical cultural research examines discourse and representation, including language and visual culture, as well as social relations, institutional structures, material practices, economic forces, and various forms of embodiment.

      Central to critical cultural scholarship is attention to the construction, regulation, and contestation of categories of identity, including race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, ability, and class. A significant branch of critical cultural studies examines how ideas about gender and sex develop and circulate, asking how and why some constructions of gender and sex become normative and gain hegemony—or, cultural privilege—in a particular context. For example, such scholarship might critique the idealization of certain performances of masculinity and the attendant devaluation of femininity or other subordinated masculinities; or, this research might consider how particular iterations of masculinity or femininity may be counter-hegemonic, operating in opposition to prevailing ideologies of gender and sex. Critical cultural approaches also emphasize the intersectionality of gender and sex with other categories of identity. For instance, ideas about masculinity or femininity can rarely be separated from assumptions about race and/or sexuality; as such, prevailing ideologies of gender and sex often reflect the presumed normativity of whiteness and heterosexuality.

      Diversity, Equity, and Inclusive Education

      The original 13 colonies of the United States declared their independence from Great Britain when the Continental Congress adopted a statement of declaration on July 4, 1776. The second sentence of this document is often hailed as the most profound sweeping statement of individual human rights in the history of humankind:

      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

      Marginalized individuals and groups have utilized this passage to protect their rights and freedoms. Abraham Lincoln often espoused the idea the Declaration of Independence is a statement of principles by which the United States Constitution should be interpreted. The United States Constitution is the supreme law of our nation and establishes a framework for governance and the relationship of the federal government to the citizens of this nation, the states, and all individuals located within our borders. The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787, by the Constitutional Convention and ratified in each U. S. state. The first ten amendments are known as the Bill of Rights. I have included both the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution in Chapter 6 for your review.

      Scots are a marginalised people with no prospect of achieving social justice and equal status within the international community, so long as we lack self-determination and a written constitution.

      Don’t imagine for one minute that English cultural hegemony provides any guarantee that Scottish needs will be met in a future Britain much diminished by Brexit. We already lack access to inalienable human rights, as it is.

      @Gerry Hassan
      Do you no ken this, or do you choose to preference the Fabian Society and English Socialism over the well-being of Scottish culture?

    276. Tinto Chiel says:

      “@Gerry Hassan
      Do you no ken this, or do you choose to preference the Fabian Society and English Socialism over the well-being of Scottish culture?”

      GH: Yes (though I normally prefer answering simple questions using about 200 words, many of them long).

      I was listening to a BBC Shortbread sports programme last week and heard a voice enthusiastically endorsing Michael O’Neill as the next Scotland fitba’ manager. “He’s one of us, he’s a Celt, a brother, etc, etc….

      Then I realised I was listening to Archie “Brillo Pad Heid” MacPherson, Arch Cringer To The Establishment and Orgasmo-Britnat.

      “British nationalism preferences English culture. It is the articulation of an assumed cultural supremacy over the Celtic peoples of the British isles. British nationalism is intrinsically racist against the non-English.”

      Twisted as a corkscrew, these types…

    277. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Gerry Hassan
      I wonder if this might undermine your ideological preference for the Fabian Society and English socialism, given England’s cultural domination of Scotland’s political identity and the nation’s subsequent lack of political agency.

      Recognition or Disagreement

      Axel Honneth is best known for his critique of modern society centered on a concept of recognition. Jacques Rancière has advanced an influential theory of modern politics based on disagreement. Underpinning their thought is a concern for the logics of exclusion and domination that structure contemporary societies. In a rare dialogue, these two philosophers explore the affinities and tensions between their perspectives to provoke new ideas for social and political change.

      Identity Politics

      The laden phrase “identity politics” has come to signify a wide range of political activity and theorizing founded in the shared experiences of injustice of members of certain social groups. Rather than organizing solely around belief systems, programmatic manifestos, or party affiliation, identity political formations typically aim to secure the political freedom of a specific constituency marginalized within its larger context. Members of that constituency assert or reclaim ways of understanding their distinctiveness that challenge dominant oppressive characterizations, with the goal of greater self-determination.

      Critical theory and social justice

      In Elements of a Critical Theory of Justice, the Uruguayan political philosopher Gustavo Pereira (2013a) does an admirable job of combining, in an original theoretical formulation, contributions for reflection on the nature of justice in a democratic society, deriving from two distinct traditions of contemporary political philosophy.

      One tradition is the “Critical Theory” of society, as expressed in writings by the contemporary heirs of the Frankfurt School, especially Jürgen Habermas, Karl-Otto Apel and Axel Hon- neth. Let me call the other tradition “post-Rawls theories of justice”. At least for the aims of the present article, this latter broad category can include the theoretical formulations of authors who have significant differences with Rawls, such as G. A. Cohen, Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum. The idea is to propose a “critical theory of justice” or, we might say, a conception of “critical social justice.”

      The basic elements of this conception are extracted from theoretical perspectives that belong to these two traditions and are then articulated” in a new and systematized fashion, in such a way that the new theory can overcome the shortcomings of the original theories and express a higher commitment to application” (PEREIRA, 2013a, p. 05).

      The intellectual ambition of this effort can hardly be underestimated. Regardless of how one appraises the success of this project by judging it according to its most ambitious aspirations, the discussion developed by Pereira to specify the “elements” of his conception of critical social justice makes this book highly relevant for students of normative political theory, especially those concerned with social justice issues.

    278. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Gerry Hassan
      You do support the state of Israel? Why not a Scottish state? Do you have a justification for not supporting Scottish independence, that isn’t normatively biased, bigoted or racists?

    279. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Gerry Hassan
      IMHO, you are another out-of-date academic who sorely needs to update their epistemology.

      Postcolonial Liberalism

      Postcolonial Liberalism presents a compelling account of the challenges to liberal political theory by claims to cultural and political autonomy and land rights made by indigenous peoples today. It also confronts the sensitive issue of how liberalism has been used to justify and legitimate colonialism. Ivison argues that there is a pressing need to re-shape liberal thought to become more receptive to indigenous aspirations and modes of being.

      What is distinctive about the book is the middle way it charts between separatism, on the one hand, and assimilation, on the other. These two options present a false dichotomy as to what might constitute a genuinely postcolonial liberal society. In defending this ideal, the book addresses important recent debates over the nature of public reason, justice in multicultural and multinational societies, collective responsibility for the past, and clashes between individual and group rights.

      Equality and Postcolonial Claims of Discursive Injury

      Abstract: In Western Europe, individuals and groups increasingly claim that publicly enunciated denigrating racial discourse inflicts an injury upon them, and inscribe this claim under the rubric of equality. By adopting a method of claim-centered critical theorizing, I discuss the possibilities and implications of reading “claims of racialized discursive injury” as claims to equality.

      A review of contemporary political theorists concerned with equality and injurious discourse establishes the democratic relevance of claims of discursive injury. A discussion of Judith Butler’s theory of performativity then identifies the properties of the injurable subject and of discourse’s power. Finally, I specify how a postcolonial stance enables us to grasp the actualization of discursive injury as it resonates between past colonial inequalities and threats of future exclusion or death. This equality-focused reading sheds light on the transformative potential of claims of racialized discursive injury for resignifying equality in contexts marked by “race” and postcolonialism.

      The Caribbean Postcolonial

      Drawing on the long and varied history of discourses of cultural hybridity across the caribbean, this book explores the rich and fraught cultural crossings that are often theorized homogeneously in postcolonial studies as ‘hybridity’. What is the relationship of cultural hybridity to social equality? Why have some forms of hybridity been enshrined in the caribbean imagination and others disavowed?

      What is the appeal of cultural hybridity to nationalist and post-nationalist projects alike? What can we learn from the hybridization of Afro-caribbean and Indo-caribbean cultures set in motion by slavery and indentureship? In answering these questions, this book intervenes in several important debates in postcolonial studies about cultural resistance and popular agency, feminism and cultural nationalism, the relations between postmodernism and postcolonialism, and the status of nationalism in an age of globalization.

      N.B. “race” equates to “people”.

    280. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Frans Timmermans?Verified
      “You cannot use democracy against the #RuleOfLaw.”

      OFFS! The rule-of-law is suposed to support democracy but is often employed to entrench inequality and undermine pluralism. For example, the British ‘constitution’ ensures Scots suffer from a democratic deficit and are prevented from accessing their inaleable human “Right to Development”.

      Rule of Law and Democracy: Addressing the Gap Between Policies and Practices

      The Declaration adopted on 24 September 2012 by the United Nations General Assembly at the High-level Meeting on the Rule of Law at the National and International Levels reaffirmed that “human rights, the rule of law and democracy are interlinked and mutually reinforcing and that they belong to the universal and indivisible core values and principles of the United Nations”.1 Indeed, government responsiveness to the interests and needs of the greatest number of citizens is strictly associated with the capacity of democratic institutions and processes to bolster the dimensions of rights, equality and accountability.

      If considered not solely an instrument of the government but as a rule to which the entire society, including the government, is bound, the rule of law is fundamental in advancing democracy. Strengthening the rule of law has to be approached not only by focusing on the application of norms and procedures. One must also emphasize its fundamental role in protecting rights and advancing inclusiveness, in this way framing the protection of rights within the broader discourse on human development.

      ….This “thick” definition of the rule of law differs from “thinner” definitions that place emphasis on the procedures through which rules are formulated and applied. Examples of the tenets within a “thick” definition were provided by the then United Nations Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, in his 2004 reports on the rule of law. Mr. Annan stressed that, for the United Nations, the rule of law is:

      (…) a principle of governance in which all persons, institutions and entities, public and private, including the State itself, are accountable to laws that are publicly promulgated, equally enforced and independently adjudicated, and which are consistent with international human rights norms and standards. It requires as well measures to ensure adherence to the principles of supremacy of the law, equality before the law, accountability to the law, fairness in the application of the law, separation of powers, participation in decision-making, legal certainty, avoidance of arbitrariness, and procedural and legal transparency.2

    281. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Shandells – Go Go Gorilla

    282. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you’ve never been to a WOS social night, they look something like this:

      Dee-Lite, ‘Groove Is In The Heart’ –

    283. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you do ever have the chance to attend such an evening, this is the recommended warm-up routine.

      Fatboy Slim, ‘Weapon Of Choice’ –

    284. CameronB Brodie says:

      Justin Timberlake – Can’t stop the feeling!

    285. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Have never been a Timberlake fan but that’s a total cracker!

      Seeing as we’re already up dancin, how ’bout dis?

      Rick Astley, ‘Uptown Funk’ –

    286. Tinto Chiel says:

      Sorry to Jackie Baillie on your music, guys, but just had a disconcerting experience at younger daughter’s. They were watching Strictly Come Dancing, a gruesome piece of sequined flim-flam, but, hey, it keeps the proles from thinking about Brexit.

      Anyhow, it was a Yoontastic experience: first Debbie McGhee (me neither) flounced about in a Butcher’s Apron dress and then some other non-entity zoomed down on a BA parachute to start his routine, screamed on by Jaikie Rowling and Muriel Gray having multiplied organisms all over the place (but not in Gaelic).

      Is this what I used to pay my licence fee for?

      Was it for this the clay grew tall?

      Thank God the BBC are patriots and not vile nationalists.

    287. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      First time I’d heard it myself. 😉

    288. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      That sounds truly horrendous.

      God help the poor sowels who actually enjoy such tripe – they’re in a sort of hell and don’t even know it.

      Anyway, that’s me in for the night now because my lad went to play snooker with his pals rather than me. Didn’t hurt my feelings. Not at all.


    289. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This isn’t meant to be sexist in any way, it’s more to do with the general tone and style, but if WOS O/T regulars ever formed a band it would probably resemble this (and bags-me the drummer spot!)

      Spinal Tap, ‘Gimme Some Money’ –

    290. Ian Brotherhood says:

      And this is…

      This is…

      Ach, ye’ll just have tae watch it.

      It’s bizarre, but still beats ‘Strictly’ hands-down:

      Buddy Greene, ‘Classical Harmonica Medley’ –

    291. Tinto Chiel says:

      You’re on fire tonight, Ian.

      For good old Malcom Young, who died today:

      Classic driving bass, born in Glasgow.

    292. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. (t)Ruthless Harrison getting voted Scottish Politician Of The Year for the second year running. I suppose it depends on one’s moral outlook and weather you consider the practice of politics is for the accumulation of power for social control, or if it is for the ethical betterment of society.

      Conservatives VS. Liberals

      One of the criteria that Jonathan Haidt uses to identify Liberal vs. Conservative thinking is an openness to new experiences. This basic and seemingly innocuous indicator tracks well with certain political affiliations as they related to the five foundations of morality. Liberals as you may suspect are more open to new ideas and are therefore more willing to change. They are more likely to focus on the good things in change, hoping for the best. Conservatives tend to be reluctant to change, fearing that change may ruin the good things and bring more problems; unintended consequences. Such an outlook tends to track with age; younger people tend to be more liberal and older people tend to be more conservative.

      While researching morality Haidt wondered if there existed a difference in how conservatives and liberals view morality. He created an interesting experiment to determine if there were moral differences between the two groups. He posted a questionnaire online which asked various questions relating to these five foundations of moral values ( Questions are first asked to determine your “openness to new experiences”, which determines your liberal or conservative slant. Then questions on five foundations of morality are asked.

      The results of thousands of respondents in several countries provides clear evidence for a divergence of importance placed on these five foundations of morality. Liberals’ value – Harm/Care high, then Fairness/Reciprocity, then a big drop to Authority/Respect and In-group/Loyalty, then least Purity/Sanctity. Conservatives’ value – Harm/Care lower than liberals but place it at the top of their lists as well. Authority is a close second followed closely by In-group/Loyalty, and Purity/Sanctity, with Fairness/Reciprocity at the bottom.

      I find the fact that Fairness/Reciprocity is ranked lowest by conservatives to be a very disturbing finding. It seems somewhat intuitive but this study helps to quantify the correlation. Conservatives, valuing authority much higher than liberals would suggest that they would be far more susceptible to authoritarian behavior; which does prove historically accurate and can be clearly seen in today’s politics. That means a greater focus on “the mission“.

      It therefore makes sense that Fairness/Reciprocity would be ranked lowest because Fairness/Reciprocity tends to get in the way of the mission. As noted earlier, authority does not have to take the form of a human authority figure. A meme that a person or group holds near and dear, a sacred value, can have authority. This authority can be used to make good people do bad things. That is an imbalance that should be of concern to everyone.

      If one was feeling a bit less generous, they may conclude that given the closeness of the conservative responses, it could be conservatives in general have a poor understanding of ethics all together. If one took all of the culturally prescribed “rights” and “wrongs” as being morally equivalent, it would be hard to distinguish between any of the five categories. If what you understood of right and wrong was what your authority figures told you (God, Country, Family, etc), distinction between different categories would not matter much and a cultural understanding of morality would be all you would be able to understand. Ethics, would seem a foreign concept. Liberals on the other hand seem to have a better understanding of ethics, and therefore can prioritize the five foundations of morality better.

      Authoritarian dynamics and unethical decision making: high social dominance orientation leaders and high right-wing authoritarianism followers.


      When dilemmas require trade-offs between profits and ethics, do leaders high in social dominance orientation (SDO) and followers high in right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) make decisions that are more unethical than those made by others? This issue was explored in 4 studies with female participants performing managerial role-playing tasks. First, dyads comprising a person who was either low or high in SDO and a person who was either low or high in RWA negotiated for a leadership position. People high in SDO were more likely to obtain leader positions than to obtain follower positions. No other effects were significant. Second, leaders high in SDO partnered with an agreeable (confederate) follower made decisions that were more unethical than those of leaders low in SDO. Third, followers high in RWA were more acquiescent to and supportive of an unethical (confederate) leader than were followers low in RWA. Fourth, high SDO leader-high RWA follower dyads made decisions that were more unethical than those made in role-reversed dyads because leaders had more influence. Implications of these results for conceptualizing SDO, RWA, and authoritarian dynamics are discussed.

      An Ethical Analysis of Neoliberal Capitalism: Alternative Perspectives from Development Ethics


      In this paper, the author submits the position that the worldwide capitalist economy has taken the route of neoliberal capitalism. The main distinction among market capitalism and neoliberal capitalism is the role of the private market mechanism to economic and non-economic activities. The evolution of neoliberal capitalism is historically specific. In turn, specific aspects of the free-market economics, here mentioned as neoliberal economics, are the intellectual defender of the neoliberal capitalism.

      The purpose of the paper is to explore neoliberal capitalism in deeper ethical terms and to offer an ethical alternative. Development ethics is an important alternative perspective to neoliberalism, which is often neglected even in the heterodox economic literature. In particular, an original ethical model, on the basis of ‘social ethics’, is suggested for the discovery of the metaethical, normative-ethical and applied-ethical orientations of an economic system and of an economic analysis. After the ethical evaluation of neoliberal capitalism and neoliberal economic analysis the development ethics alternative is recommended.

    293. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, off the meds again. I was only able to pick up a half prescription, as they were out-of-stock. OK, I take an uncommon combination but I somehow doubt Brexit will help me. I can cope 😉 , but I’m certain other who can’t will have their lives put in jeopardy as a result of English exceptionalism.

      That’s sounds like a bit more than symbolic violence to me.

      Neoliberalism and health inequalities

      This chapter deals with neoliberalism and its impacts in terms of inequalities in general, and health inequalities in particular. It begins by describing the historical and political roots of neoliberalism, before moving on to consider the various ways in which ideas associated with neoliberalism have been implemented across different contexts (with a particular focus on the UK and the USA). Next, the chapter draws on empirical data to consider how and why neoliberalism is implicated in the rise in, and persistence of, health inequalities, before reviewing key debates surrounding the pathways linking neoliberal policies and practices with poor health outcomes. The chapter concludes with a critical assessment of public health’s failure to address the links between neoliberal policies/practices and health inequalities, arguing that this has led to an unjustified focus on theories which have little prospect of explaining, or catalysing action to reduce, health inequalities.

      I personally hold to the theory that Scottish independence would maximise Scotland’s opportunity to follow ethical development paths. In terms of inequalities in general, and health inequalities in particular, this can only improve the current situation and help with enable the development sustainable practices.


      Margaret Thatcher (1925–2013) was the United Kingdom’s prime minister from 1979 to 1990. Her informal transatlantic alliance with U.S. President Ronald Reagan from 1981 to 1989 played an important role in the promotion of an international neoliberal policy agenda that remains influential today. Her critique of UK social democracy during the 1970s and her adoption of key neoliberal strategies, such as financial deregulation, trade liberalization, and the privatization of public goods and services, were popularly labeled Thatcherism. In this article, we consider the nature of Thatcherism and its
      impact on health and well-being during her period as prime minister and, to a lesser extent, in the years that follow; we focus mainly on Great Britain (England, Scotland, and Wales). Thatcher’s policies were associated with substantial increases in socioeconomic and health inequalities: these issues were actively marginalized and ignored by her governments. In addition, her public-sector reforms applied business principles to the welfare state and prepared the National Health Service for subsequent privatization.

      How neoliberal policies have made us sick

      Facts and figures about ‘How politics makes us sick’

      Health inequalities between the 10 per cent richest and poorest local authority districts in England are now larger than at any point since before the Great Depression;

      Income inequalities grew steadily in the UK in the 1980s and most tax reforms have benefitted the richest 1 per cent;

      While most ordinary people are only just recovering from the effects of the 2008 financial crisis, or are falling farther behind, the wealth of Britain’s richest thousand families has doubled;

      Social mobility has greatly reduced so that your parents’ income, job and education now determines your own future social position and health to a greater degree than at any point since the Second World War;

      In high-income countries, the proportion of people living in poverty varies considerably; the UK ranks amongst the worst in Europe in terms of child poverty, with over a fifth of under 16s living in poor households;

      The NHS is increasingly subject to the rules of the market with tax payers’ money going to private profit rather than to patients and our public services run down and unfit for purpose

      @(t)Ruthless Harrison
      Fuck you and your brass neck!

    294. Betty Boop says:


      I vill say zis only once. Puffer posted on Friday night, Chazzie 🙂 It’s coming via the slow pigeon.

      Have I passed the secret agent test?

    295. Betty Boop says:

      @Tinto Chiel, 8:32pm. 18/11/17

      Felt your pain! That was the Sooz Calman fan clique, a’ wearin’ thon awfy passé Keep Calm t-shirts wi’ a big crown motif. They must hae been near wettin’ thirsels wi’ the excitement of a’ thon rid, white n blue.

      Any explanation for the steckie, wee wummin gettin’ a shoat at bouncin’ oan the flair o’ the Tower? Mebbe somethin’ tae dae wi’ the company she’s keepin’… a generous bit o’ wizardry…

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bloody nationalists, they drive me demented so they do.

      Claude Debusst – Clair De Lune

    297. Betty Boop says:

      @ CameronB

      Very calming, brings down the BP…

    298. CameronB Brodie says:

      Betty Boop
      Sorry for taking up so much space, I just had to resist in some way. The BPs definitely needed bring down. 😉

    299. CameronB Brodie says:

      I just thought of something that’s probably a bit of recollection. Anyway, thought I’d share it before I forget.

      It is unfortunate that we all share a conservative mentality, as the Conservative disposition is not predisposed to understanding, embracing or practicing empathy. Still, SNP Baaad….

      Bloody nationalists

      Ann-Mette Elten – O mio babbino caro

    300. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Betty Boop: good morning! It wasn’t just me, then, getting hyper-sensitive to Yon Fleg? Great to see you commenting.

      Susan Calman and Ruthie could have been separated at birth, don’t you think? Mind you, you never see them together, do you?

      Susan’s shtick is to be the wee Scotch monkey on the Radio 4’s organ-grinder’s cairt. Gets you lots of gigs and dosh, though.

      If you could just give these PSBs a backbone and some self-respect, we could be independent in jig time.

      Thanks for the Debussy, Cameron. I am now Zen on a lovely frosty morning…

    301. Betty Boop says:

      @ CameronB

      See, you’ve chilled out more than yourself; see Tinto C now in the zone 🙂

      @ Tinto Chiel

      I’m thinking somebody must have funded a wee Sooz call centre; who’d do that sort of thing..?

      Twins, eh? Separated after manufacture???

    302. Tinto Chiel says:

      Soozbot 1.1 and 1.2?

      Brave New World.


    303. Fred says:

      Now got a Debussy earworm!

    304. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fred 😉

      Bloody nationalists.

      Sir Edward Elgar – Pomp and Circumstance March No.1

    305. Tinto Chiel says:

      LONDON nationalists?

      How terribly, terribly boring…

    306. Fred says:

      Just won two million dollars on a Free Lottery site but am determined it won’t change my routine in the slightest!

    307. Alex Clark says:


      Well done! Now buy the Scotsman you should get change back from a fiver 🙂

    308. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Don’t know what it is about the whole memory/music combo, but this came on the radion when I was almost home t’other day, parked-up, left it playing and was in tears by the time it finished.

      Something very moving about it, and seeing the video for the first time there just made it even more intense.


      ABBA, ‘One Of Us’ –

    309. Tinto Chiel says:

      Music hits the parts other art forms fail to reach, Ian. I greet more about music than just about anything, apart from the condition of my country. I went all gooey about Sandy Denny recently and haven’t quite recovered.

      Or you may just have had an Agnetha Moment, which is quite normal in gentleman d’un certain age.

      I prescribe a strict regime of spring water, bending exercises and organic quinoa porridge, birch-twig thrashings optional.

      Otherwise, two fingers of malt of choice.

      *Extends first and fourth fingers, second and third retracted under thumb.*

      And is there honey still for tea?

    310. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Cheers brother, I note all you say.

      Unfortunately, the bevvy’s all done. I’ll have to make do with a cup of tea and some toast…


    311. Tinto Chiel says:

      Have you tried Bile Beans, Ian? It almost worked for yon cove in “A Painful Case”.

      If we didn’t have the souls of poets, we would founder, old mole.


      Not tonight, Agnetha, I’m an intellectual.

    312. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Nothing wrang wi a good greet to a beautiful tune mate. It’s cathartic.

      This ane fae Abba aywiz pits me in mind o the struggle for Independence and the spirit o rebellion that lives in us ah.

      Meh Bevvy is still flowing though eh hiv been daeing well of late in terms of abstinence. Eh think eh am gonna genuinely get meh heid the gither this time and be mair productive.

    313. William Wallace says:

      Another good topic fir Aff Topic.

      Music that moves you!!

      Post the tunes that bring a tear ti yir eye.

    314. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      Cheers mister, thanks.

      Good to sound ye’re feeling perkier there.

      Still looking forward to seeing some of your stuff!

      You show me yours, ah’ll show you mine!


    315. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian (it’s come doon fae the attic, thinking aboot youtube recitals instead o typing it ah ;)) Telt ya eh wiz lazy 🙂

      Here’s ane that moves me (nae laughing you lot – men cry tae)

      Eva came straight fae heaven and left this earth far too early.

    316. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Music that moves you…

      This is the signature tune of Dundee’s Team Yes Bus.

    317. William Wallace says:

      @ Bri

      In terms o sentiment and the Corries, eh love this ane. It’s no their tune like but, eh share the dream onywey.

    318. Fred says:

      @ Alex, naebody sells the Scotsman in ma neck o the woods!

    319. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Interesting… After a weekend break, sensidave is back on this page:-

      yesindyref2 and I have responded but more cybernats would be useful. His/her preoccupation with that page seems to be keeping her/him off the newer pages.

    320. yesindyref2 says:

      I think seniledave might be more appropriate 🙂

    321. William Wallace says:

      His/her preoccupation with that page seems to be keeping her/him off the newer pages.

      If you can keep him there is that no mission accomplished?

    322. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      I hope I’ve managed to respond appropriately?

      Taylor Swift – Mean

    323. Ruglonian says:

      Cactus – you have mail 😀

      Everyone else – as you were!

      I’m going through a little period of disturbed sleep – not quite the insomnia that’s plagued me previously – so no worries folks 🙂

      (I’m struggling to post further cos my submit button disappears)

    324. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 4.27am
      Just as a wee head’s up.
      If yer no sleeping very well I can be in and out of Wings at stupid o’clock…. Cause my sleep patterns are a bit all over the place too.
      So give a shout out if yer up and aboot and if I am around I’ll quite happily put the world to rights with ye.X

    325. Ruglonian says:

      Hey Liz, you’re on, thanks!

    326. Alex Clark says:

      Music that moves you, played many times but this time a different video. Huh.

      For my best pal.

      You see were all brothers and I failed to see that.

    327. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 4.27 pm
      Yer welcome, my friend…. although if we are anything like oor Smallaxe and me….we will keep missing each other by aboot half an hour ….almost evey time…I shit ye not.
      But sometimes, just sometimes, the insomnia aligns!
      Anyhoo …
      Thank ” Lucifer ” for Cactus.. He is like a misquoted Mercury line….Our only friend thru sleepless nights….

    328. Cactus says:

      Delightful Ladies…

      Tis SO good:

      We bon.


    329. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 4am
      We very bon

    330. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ thru the night

      Now I want to hear Dino’s (showing my age here by the way)
      Little ol wine drinker me..
      Can ye make that happen ?

    331. Cactus says:

      Hey I can make many things happen Liz g ~

      For your pleasure:


    332. Cactus says:

      Here’s another one for all you girls out there…

      The late DC:

    333. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ thru the night
      Hey..thank you my friend….
      Daydream Believer?? Just because!!
      And well its the
      Back ..o 5 and now I am
      in so much trouble..but hey ho….pick a song fur me. X

    334. liz g says:

      Cactus @ 6.00
      Aw thank ye…
      Yer a star.
      Till Stupid o’clock tomorrow!!!
      Take care of friend. X

    335. Ruglonian says:

      Liz, and Cactus too no doubt, I’ll see you at Stupid O’Clock tomorrow (clocked in too late/early) – I’m liking your music btw 🙂

    336. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 6.36
      Ah did tell ye….did ah no…we will miss each other mair often than not…..
      But there’s 3 things we know fur sure
      1-Sometimes insomnia will a-line
      2-On Cactus we can depend
      3-Scotland WILL be Independent

      Till stupid o’clock tomorrow my friend..X

    337. Fred says:

      Watched Rory the Tory’s wee Borders history prog’ last night. Apart from Carlisle being more or less like Afghanistan the rest was fantasist shite! He should be in close confinement!

    338. Thepnr says:

      Thepnr steps out of retirement, Alex was nice but too nice 🙂

    339. William Wallace says:

      Alex was nice but too nice

      That’s rather subjective, isn’t it? 😉

    340. Thepnr says:

      Just checking if the avatar appears.

    341. Thepnr says:

      @William Wallace

      What I mean Wullie is that over a number of years Thepnr got to be known for who and what he stood for with everybody that reads this site.

      This did not transfer over to Alex Clark as evidenced on the MT tonight. I’m going back to being anonymous though anyone that cared already know who am I.

      It was this or stop posting, seriously I couldn’t believe that I was accused of being a troll or working for MI5 tonight and wanted to say fuck it I’m off.

      But why should I, I believe that I still have something of value to offer readers of Wings. For that reason I’m staying but it will be as I first came here. That is as username Thepnr.

    342. Thepnr says:

      Sorted with the gravatar?

    343. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      I know.

      I’ve been here a lot longer than I have been William Wallace 😉

    344. William Wallace says:

      Aye mate it’s fixed.

      No sure if you look like ane o the waltons or an 80’s casual lol 🙂

    345. Thepnr says:

      Bit eh both 🙂

      By the way it’s a painting of an American Shipwright from the 1890’s. I served my time in the Caledon as a Shipwright.

      The picture fits me like a glove.

    346. William Wallace says:

      The last o Barretts Privateers eh 🙂

      Last time eh hid dungarees on wiz 86. Thought eh wiz the trendiest c**t in the toon lol. Wiz pert casual and pert acid casualty 🙂

    347. Thepnr says:

      When I started work in the Caledon in 1975 I was the only one wearing dungarees. All the rest had boilersuits and I couldn’t get one sma enough. Too wee see.

    348. Liz g says:

      Glad you didn’t leave Alex….and welcome back Thepnr.
      You are both right …you still have a lot to offer.
      And MI6…that’s wan pretty deluded poster. lol

      William Wallace…… You weren’t always you?… Do tell!

    349. William Wallace says:

      @ Liz

      Mon now, ehm trehin to be enigmatic here 😉

      Eh agree with you on Alex / PNR. Dinnae hae to change anything Alex. Jist be yirsel. Eh hiv aywiz valued yir contributions. Dinnae pay any heed to the halfwit contingent on MT ffs. Yir fine iz yi are.

    350. Ruglonian says:

      Hey Thepnr, you’ve got plenty to offer, now get on that MT and rip it up (I’m coming over too, for the first time in ages)

      Liz g I can’t post proper links from my phone, but look up the Velvet Underground’s After Hours – I’m nominating it as our theme tune 🙂

    351. Thepnr says:

      @William Wallace

      This no doubt is the 80’s scene you were referring too. I loved this song hope you enjoy too 🙂

    352. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      Somewhere between there and here 😉 Then along came Acid House.

    353. Thepnr says:

      @William Wallace

      Here’s a wee laugh from the “loadsamoney” era which speaks volumes for what I think is your natural Tory. Keep you eye out though for the subtitles at the very end. The punchline.

    354. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 1.16
      Seconded…. The lyrics might even be enigmatic enough fur oor William Wallace….. Or are they!!!

    355. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex 🙂

      A cross between Enfield and Partridge is the Tory personified.

      How the fuck they ever came to run our country defies belief.

      @ Liz

      My door is always open and I am always dancing 😉

    356. Cactus says:

      Morning, ah got two chilled 14/17 wheat beers to work in.

      This could be a long morning.

      Or an even better day.


    357. Ruglonian says:

      So what’s folks thoughts on this TeamKez thing (aside from the general banality of these type of tv shows) – I’m talking about the ‘shes our gal ie Scotland’s’ kind of talk from some who have built their profiles on political tribalism.
      Personally, I can’t stomach it. I’m coming from a non party pov, but I do have principles and I do have a memory!

    358. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Ruglonian ~ Aye, celebrity donkey jungle aint for me either, it’s aweright bein’ in amongst the beasties, but when ye goat tae eat the beasties AND the boaby, that’s no right.

      Welcome to the Jungle:

      That’s a Tight Fit!

      (603,308 current views)

    359. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 12.58
      Just been having this exact conversation on Facebook.
      Trying to stay polite cause he is definitely a yes voter.
      (I peeked at his profile)
      But he thinks this is just a bit of fun!
      Kezzia needs a break????and naw before ye ask ah didny suggest whit she should break!!!!
      But even more bizarre he seems to think that we will get to know the “real” Kezzia.
      Well… flabber Wiz gasted!!!!

      Am wi you Ruglonian….
      This is beneath the dignity of our Parliament and no matter what SHE chooses to do with her wages it’s still OUR coin she is doing it on.
      I don’t really care the why’s and the wherefores for the Labor party…..this woman was a candidate for the office of the First minister of Scotland.
      This was the Women who got to “hold our First Minister to account”. …we’ll try to!

      This was the Woman who was given air time….. again on OUR coin to tell the Scots her view’s on how our world should work!
      And now she is eating disgusting things and being humiliated for money and not even having the decency to do it in private.
      While absent from work….
      We definitely, I think, need some form of recall for Holyrood.

      But other than that I am pretty ambivalent about the whole thing

      Morning Cactus.

    360. Ruglonian says:

      Saw a clip and there was frogs involved – SO not on (maybe if it was just spiders I’d be less sympathetic to the beasties, but hey we’re all only human), but I digress.

      If you are the preeminent Labour politician in the country and you can’t ‘engage’ you’re shite, no too ways about it!

    361. Ruglonian says:

      Cactus – I said last night that I thought I may be lowering the tone – I take it back 😀

      Liz g – call me cynical but I think, amongst certain quarters there’s been a concerted attempt to diminish HR since Salmond’s minority victory – throughout IndyRef1 and at elections there’s been a slightly more professional tone, but overall there’s a tribal short-term-gain mentality that I do not understand.

    362. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 2.18
      Ok cynical….
      I am seeing it that way too.
      We know that it was ment to have the opposite effect on the Independence movement…. I think that’s a given.
      I really do think that Westminster/Whitehall or who ever are working towards neutering Holyrood…. I would if Was them.

      And I know it’s a wee bit Tin Foil Hatty..but
      I have never viewed the new power saying that Holyrood can only be shut down by a referendum in Scotland as a protection for the Parliament.

      But rather…. as Westminster giving it’s self a leagal route to get it shut down if it can get to an actual vote on it.
      Neither Domestically or Internationally could it be claimed that the Scottish people’s right to self determination hadn’t been met.
      If they can scunner enough people with Holyrood to convince them that they want a referendum to shut it down.
      Job done.
      Remember all the comments about legislation to ensure that the SNP couldn’t threaten the Union again,I think that this law is the result of that thinking!
      Ofcourse this would have been a long term aim….

      But remember when they wrote this Law,they were trying to portray the vow as being delivered and they seemed pretty confident that Indy ref 2 was decades away.
      Also not even in their wildest dreams did they think that the UK would vote for Brexit.

      So yes I think that there’s very much a concerted effort to make Holyrood look like an Expensive White Elephant.
      Just think about this for a minute……
      What would you think of it if the SNP weren’t in it?

    363. Liz g says:

      Oh an not forgetting the very quiet expansion of Fluffys office.

    364. Ruglonian says:

      Liz, I will always play devils advocate, so if I were a Pro-Union person I’d definitely be trying to undermine the authority of Holyrood – regardless of whither I had a job there or not (so many are filling positions and so many are keeping cushty positions – Tompkins/Murdo) – this idea that we are just a wee bit of the UK was torn apart by Salmond’s minority Gov.

      They know things will never be the same again!

    365. Liz g says:

      Ruglonian @ 3.45
      Totally agree… I always try to think what would I do in their position.
      Also to compare what they say to how that would translate in to other areas.
      EG…. Would there ever be a right in Law to have a referendum to abolish…
      The Lord’s
      The Commons.
      The Monarchy.
      North Lanarkshire Council?
      If we think it’s not working for us!

      Where’s the equivalent Law for England?….they got EVEL didn’t they,what do they get to vote to abolish?

      The only thing we really got out of the 2014 referendum was the ability to let Westminster shut Holyrood down enshrined in Law.
      Which as you have pointed out,they have been building up to since Alex Salmond won.

      Does Wales and Northern Ireland have that law too?
      Probably not so if Holyrood is the only body that can be voted out of existence!!
      Then that makes me think that’s the intention.
      Why create a new law that’s not intended to be used.

      And for me therein lies the answer to how Westminster has kept control of Scotland.
      This law is portrayed as a protection,and our legislator is placed in a position of pretty much having to wave it through.
      This was probably ment to be starting point of the destruction of Holyrood…. because truth be told it’s only because the Yes movement have the ability to communicate and the Brexit vote in both countries turning out as it did.
      That the undermining of Holyrood is not more advanced.
      After Indy (cause we got a mandate) we will probably discover many more move’s along these lines.

    366. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Really wierd; this just popped into my head when I heard Louisa May Alcock mentioned on Pointless.

      This will chime with people of my age. My Mum had a thing up on the wall of the bathroom in our St Mary’s hovelhold. It had a poem on it. It begrail,

      Please remember, don’t forget.
      Never leave the bathroom wet.
      Nor leave the soap still in the water,
      That’s a thing we never ought’er.
      Nor leave the towels about the floor,
      Nor keep the bath an hour or more.
      When other folks are wanting one,
      please don’t forget, it isn’t done.

      Now, I don’t think LM Alcock wrote it but I’m stuck on the name that was under the poem on the thing on the wall. The name will just appear out of my mental archive when I’m not thinking about it – as usual with these sorts of issues.

    367. Liz g says:

      BDTT @ 5.47
      Youse must have been really posh
      Ma Mither had a wee plaque wi wan verse

      If you sprinkle when you tinkle
      Be a sweetie and
      Wipe the seatie!

      No very eloquent and it never really worked anyways!

    368. Betty Boop says:

      @ thepnr

      See what happens when I’ve been awol for a few days, thepnr appears again.

      Jings, I’ve missed that avatar. Wings world is put to rights again, welcome back thepnr. 🙂

    369. Ruglonian says:

      Well since it’s officially the night shift (and the jukebox appears to be on the blink) I offer up one of my old favourites for consideration.

      The style may not be to everyone’s taste (in fact I’ve heard some great acoustic covers that really do it justice) but the lyrics take me right back to when I was 16 and saw them live in Glasgow, especially that ending!
      I suppose the last verse to me is like Teenage Kicks was to John Peel.

      Anyway enjoy,

    370. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      As expected, on waking up from an elongated snooze, the name “Mabel Lucie Attwell” crawled out of my memory database, so I Googled.
      Here’s what was on our bathroom wall:-

      And here’s the background info – apparently, she was quite famous.

    371. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruglonian.

      Your video reminded me of another one. I bought this single when it came out in 1977, entitled, “And The Band Played On”, by Flash And The Pan. That name hid the identities of Howard Vanda and George Young, who produced AC/DC. I’ve always had an interest in Titanic, since I saw the Kenneth More film, “A Night To Remember” decades ago.

      Here’s the music video:-

      Here’s the bio:-

      If you want to watch “A Night To Remember” (1958), you can download it here (good quality):-

    372. William Wallace says:

      Burning the midnight oil for the Blood and Soil 😉 🙂

      I wonder what you felt inside
      As they dragged you through foreign streets
      The townsfolk spat venom at you
      As churchmen took their seats
      And did you think of your Motherland
      As you stood there center stage
      Or did you feel suppression, Dear Sir,
      Like an animal in a cage?

      I wonder what you felt inside
      As they hung you by your throat
      Through tear-welled eyes you looked out
      As the crowd began to gloat.
      And when they cut you down
      So that your body slammed the ground
      Did you pray to God for strength, Dear Sir,
      To fight another round?

      I wonder what you felt inside
      When you burned with ropes pulled tight
      Did you see the glee upon their faces
      As they watched you lose the fight?
      And when every inch of your body cried out
      With the burning, searing pain,
      Did it ever cross your mind, Dear Sir,
      “Was it all in vain”?

      I wonder what you felt inside
      When you met the butcher’s blade
      Did you see their blank expressions
      As they watched your life-force fade?
      Or did your soul break free from the pain and the hurt
      To a pine covered glen
      And will you ever know, Dear Sir,
      What a hero you became?

      Aye, will you ever know, Dear Sir,
      What a hero you became?

      Don’t fear their cannons or their muskets!
      Charge with me!
      We fight for what we love!
      We fight for our country!
      Charge, For Scotland!

      Albannach – The Uprising – Braveheart

    373. Cactus says:

      Excellent William Wallace! 🙂

    374. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –


      Where is abody the nicht?


      Anyway, here’s one I don’t think we’ve ever had on OT.

      Madonna, ‘Hung Up’ –

    375. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian B.

      Last night was rather bereft of Wingers from teatime Friday to lunchtime Saturday.

      It’s kinda disheartening when you research Mabel Lucie Attwell and the Young brothers (AC/DC), and nobody responds.

      Onnyhoo, I think that’s me for tonight. A home-concocted Lidl chicken kurma, with peppers and onions and extra tikka chicken beckons, with various pakoras, baghis and samosas and a couple of mini garlic and coriander nans and spam and a fried egg on top, beckons.

      OK, I was telling lies about the spam and a fried egg on top…

    376. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      In case the reference to ‘spam and a fried egg on top’ is too leftfield, here’s the reference.

    377. Shinty says:

      Assuming poetry is OK on OT

      This I penned pre indyref 2014

      I hear in twenty fourteen
      we’ll get to have our say
      An Independent Scotland
      the Union’s had its day

      They say we are too poor, too dim
      We’ll never make it through
      We’re subsidised by England
      That’s their only view.

      How can that be we wonder?
      You’ve robbed us blind and moan
      Your tried to keep it secret
      those words from old McCrone

      Insult us all you will, you lot
      with lies and tales of woe
      The debate has only started
      Are you friend of foe?

      The day will come quite soon I know
      When we will have our say
      The sound of Scotland’s mighty roar
      To send you on your way

      Keep your robes of splendour
      I hope they served you well
      Your ermin’s green and tattered
      Just remember … why you fell

      How treacherous you are indeed
      Your homeland you denied
      To Have all that was surely hers
      But still you chose to lie.

      In spite of all this anger
      I truly wish you well
      We’ll be your wealthy neighbour soon
      The view from here’s… just swell!

    378. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Wisny ignoring ye brother – the Lucie Mabel thing, aye, exact same thing we hud, an it wis a bit ‘precious’, like a hand-down etc. Porcelain plate…

      I remember when we were there, at PQ, George Square etc together, and that’s a few occasions now, aye?

      That’s the basis of the change to come – we have made this network/family ‘real’.


    379. Thepnr says:

      @WW & @Shinty

      Two great poems, mind watch the Rev doesn’t get the hammers out 🙂

    380. David says:

      Hee hee, ThePNR, nice sleuthing to find out that Rock used to be Craig. I can see him now:
      “The name’s Craig, Ailsa Craig.”
      What a one-track walloper Rock is. And yet people still rise to the bait and interact with him.

      Ailsa Craig (Paddy’s Milestone) Drone footage August 2017:


      This one’s for all the self-righteous eejits (mostly on Twitter) who are bitching about Yes East Kilbride daring to have an-all male panel discussing Indy. Never mind that the organisers invited 17 female speakers to attend, and none were available. Never mind that the same Yes East Kilbride group organised an all-female panel last month, to which no-one complained.

      Joe E Brown “Nobody’s perfect” from Some Like It Hot:


      Have to say, BDTT, the only good Attwell is Winifred Atwell.
      Tiger Rag played by Winifred Atwell:


    381. Fred says:

      Craig Dunain mair like! The asylum in Inverness!

    382. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. IndyApp. All sounds good to me. Here’s a few links to possibly spark some ideas.

      UBUNTU! Re-ignite the spirit of humanity!
      Rediscover the art of living together in harmony

      “Ubuntu … It speaks to the very essence of being human. When we want to give high praise to someone we say, ‘Yu, u nobuntu’: he or she has Ubuntu. This means that they are generous, hospitable, friendly, caring and compassionate. They share what they have and are able to go the extra mile for the sake of others. I am human because I belong, I participate, I share. A person with Ubuntu is open and available to others, affirming of others, does not feel threatened that others are able and good; for he or she has a proper self-assurance that comes with knowing that he or she belongs in a greater whole. We believe that a person is a person through other persons, that my humanity is caught up, bound up, inextricably, with yours. When I dehumanize you, I inexorably dehumanize myself.” – Rev. Desmond Tutu

      Setting the Global Agenda for Ubuntu Capitalism

      Ubuntu Philosophy

    383. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW, Thepnr et al –

      This is another one that gets me right in the guts. A wee snippet of it was in Creed, the most recent Stallone film (and very good it is too) –

      Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes, ‘Wake Up Everybody’ –

    384. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s one for anyone getting a bit down in the mouth about it all.

      We’ll get there in the end friends, and when we do, you’ll realise how important your input was.

      Love and Peace, Always, All-Ways to all the regulars, and embdy who’s just dropping-by.

      😉 🙂 😉

      Motorhead, ‘Heroes’ –

    385. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Yes that was good. Don’t think we’re going away anytime soon. That’s the annoying part for the most rabid yoons.

      I love the socks so I do 🙂

    386. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s only likely to move in one direction Alex, given what’s coming re. the EU and the oddballs defending the ‘status quo’.

      Dub FX – Love someone (another version)

    387. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      I wouldn’t mind so much Brian but I reckon he’s a very calculating FUD merchant.

    388. William Wallace says:


      Eh trehd tae hide it fae the wife
      this dramatic change o life
      trembling hands, forgetful speech
      forgetting ah the words eh used to speak

      Door frames that eh cannae cross
      treh ti find the right words and ehm at a loss
      then efter dinner when eh eat
      eh suddenly fa fast asleep

      Meh dreams they seem so very real
      reflective oh the things eh feel
      then ehm slavering at the mooth
      waking up fae dreams but no tae the truth

      Fatigued, confused, as eh mutter
      ah meh words come oot as stutters
      meh airms are sair, body shattered
      eh feel like eh hiv been bloody battered

      Eh’ve treh’d tae hide it thinking that
      it’ll go away and that’ll be that
      but eh guess ehm hiding fae mehself
      now eh’ve come tae realise ehm no sae well

      Now eh’ve to go in fir some tests
      fingers crossed hoping fir the best
      ah eh want is a fitful rest
      This life o mine o what a mess.

      And yiz wonder why I am so stressed.

      Eh ken it’s Parkinsons and ehm fkin depressed.

    389. Liz g says:

      William Wallace @ 4.10
      You have friends all roon ye William.
      Even at stupid o’clock.
      Don’t you give in tae it noo.
      And let us know how you get on.
      Fingers crossed for ye pal.X

    390. William Wallace says:

      @ Liz

      Eh Ken and thank you. 🙂 Eh just wrote that there the now because that’s what’s keeping me awake.

      What will be will be. 🙂

      Got awa wi it for a while but, family and friends were noticing and ya cannae hide fae them that ken ya.

      Got dragged to the doctors last week and now it’s hospitals and that. Places eh’d rather avoid. Places eh wiz trying to avoid if I am being honest.

      On the bright side, research has progressed somewhat so hopefully I can live as normal a life as possible.

      What I am really scared of is losing words. The rest I can deal with.

    391. Liz g says:

      Well right now you don’t know for sure and it sounds like your family has paid enough attention to catch it early.
      And I think your right treatment has been improving.
      One of my mum’s friends is very heavily involved with the association.
      So while it’s not something I know a great deal about myself William I did pick up that much…..and that was a year or two ago now.
      Stay focused for now,till we know more and then,if your main priority it your words….tell them and you will get the correct information about how to handle that.
      Sometimes we imagine things to be much worse than they are.
      And one thing we do know William……you do have an imagination……..and if you are feeling low already it won’t help…..
      Hangfire William and we will see where you are when ye you have seen a doctor.X
      But bad mood or no…. that’s no excuse to annoy the Mrs ….
      Come on here and moan to us…..or torment a troll.

    392. William Wallace says:

      @ Liz 🙂

      Any particular trolls in mind? 😉

      I actually got dragged to the doctors because I was having a lot of stomach issues (or at least I thought that was why I was going to the doctors). When I got there my wife started hitting the doctor with all my other symptoms I thought I had kept well hidden. 🙂 Normally I tell the doctor the bare minimum what with being a man and that but, she insisted that she was coming this time.

      I didn’t know this but, apparently Parkinsons starts in the gut. In a way I am kind of glad it is not what I had been worried it was (the big C). Lifestyle changes can go a long way toward staving off the worst of Parkinson’s apparently so I am reasonably hopeful that things will turn out alright in the short to medium term at least.

      You have to hand it to the ladies though, they are insightful creatures and they rarely miss a trick 😉 I am thankful that she dragged me along though as it was more of a worry as to what it might have been. If she had not insisted and dragged me down there I would have continued to put it off and probably worried myself sick.

    393. Liz g says:

      We’ll see that’s kind of what I was sayin.
      You worried about something that wasn’t there.
      And I am now sure that you will do fine…. because your Mrs is clearly on the ball.
      If you’re getting healthy lifestyle tips mind and share them here don’t be mean….
      Talking of mean ….any Troll ye like my friend infact more than one……aw feck it all of them….jist rotate.

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      Skater-punks have changed a bit.

      Dub FX – Fly WIth Me

    395. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jim Hagart
      Looks like I owe you an apology. Sorry dude, it was nothing personal, I was simply trying to make a point.


    396. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi CBB.

      I wonder if SD will bow out gracefully? Mind you, his preoccupation with “Madrid Rules” has kept him from fouling the newer pages.


      Onnyhoo, I have “The One Show” on and the story about the music teacher doing a “School of Rock” in Yorkshire reminded me of this.

      The video has now had 45,863,223 views since it was uploaded in 2009. Well worth a watch!

    397. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      Either way Brian, Dave’s position becomes unattractive. But then again, he’s already a Tory.

      Anyhoo, not my usual cup-of-tea but that was pretty awesome. A bit depressing, as well, when you think about it. 😉

    398. Scott says:

      I saw this headline.

      I can’t eat or sleep’: the woman threatened with deportation after 50 years in Britain

      Maybe should not say this but Harry’s future wife will not have to worry about this and what about the Inverness couple who have spent a lot of money to build up a good business and being threatened with deportation.

    399. Liz g says:

      BDTT @ 10.42
      Naw she won’t have to worry aboot that Brian.
      But the stupid woman will have to worry about getting custody of her kid’s…. If she is daft enough to give up her American citizenship…
      That family have a poor record when it comes to marriage but an even worse one when it comes to raising stable kid’s.
      Mibbi its just me….but I would be keeping my US citizenships just in case!

    400. Jack Murphy says:

      Oil price.
      RT UK Business News Report:

      “Crude prices could return to the levels last seen in 2014, according to a prediction by economist Jim O’Neill, former chairman of Goldman Sachs Asset Management.

      “While oil prices could be about $60 per barrel in November 2018, my guess is that they will have risen to about $80 per barrel in the meantime,” O’Neill wrote in Barron’s magazine…….”


    401. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Lindsay – if you’re reading this…

      I tried to contribute £15 to get the perk. But after entering my card details, then clicking “get the perk”, it took me back to the front page.

      Please, complain about them dissing PayPal…

      Sorry, no contribution, at this time.

    402. Michael McCabe says:

      Just found these couple of tunes and thought they we’re well worth Sharing.

    403. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @M McC –

      Just watched and enjoyed it brother – welcome respite from the political shiteness.


    404. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Quiet around here these days, must be the political shiteness depressing everyone.

      Let’s have a 60’s 70’s musical festival tomorrow. Only one rule, you must believe that it has never been played before on Off Topic.

      Up for that anyone?

    405. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Thepnr 12:29am I will be joining in later on today. See you then.

    406. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      Aye, that’s a good one. Will have a think about that today…


    407. Thepnr says:

      Hits of the 60’s and 70’s never before played on Wings Off Topic.
      Your starter for 10 🙂

    408. Thepnr says:

      I’ve played music from Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns once or twice before but not this one.

      Two tunes so far no lyrics? Lost for words LOL

    409. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.

      OK, I’ll keep the theme going. I bought this as a single around 1976/7. Of course, it was never a hit in the UK.

      Here’s background for you.

    410. Thepnr says:


      Good tune, though I would have thought it was Spanish not German!
      Might have just been influenced by Spanish Flamenco as that’s what it reminded me of anyway.

      NEXT! 🙂

    411. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.

      From the ‘background’ link in my previous post:

      “For the single, they took a wonderful Spanish tune called Romance which everybody, ever playing Spanish guitar, has had to play at sometime. They came up with a new arrangement once again with a full rich acoustic guitar backing and a few wah-wah-effects. Titled Le Reve, it became Ricky King’s second hit and it was also successfully covered by German-singers as a vocal.”

    412. Thepnr says:

      Brian I read the background link too. Obviously not closely enough but the page is a bit of a mess with stuff down the middle and the LHS at the same time.

      Cheers for the clarification 🙂

    413. Thepnr says:

      First venture into the 70’s. So here goes Rubber Bullets 10cc

    414. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I don’t think I’ve posted this link in ‘off-topic’ before. If I have, I apologise. (I’m sure I’ve seen ‘Rubber Bullets’ here in the past 8=))

      When I was DJ at The Bowlin’ Alley (Dundee Institute of Technology Students’ Union, Marketgait) in the late 70s and early 80s, we ended the academic year around the first week in June. The very last night was a beach party with free admission. The only rule was that you had to have on beachwear – and rolled up jeans didn’t constitute beachwear.

      Pete the Camera was our door inspector (with his goggles, crotchless earmuffs and beach shorts) and his word was final. Quite a number of people, turned away, went home and changed into beachwear. As the night went on, the price of beers and so on was reduced, as the union would be closed until September and they had to get rid of the stock.

      Just think… 2 o’clock in the morning and a couple of hundred peeps in beachwear spilling out onto the streets of Dundee…

      This link is the sequence I always played at the end of the last night of the year. I find it quite emotional, as some of our customers had completed their 4 year degree course and were off into the great wide world. Others would be back in September. Good times…

    415. Thepnr says:


      As a graduate of Dundee Tech I well remember the Bowlin Alley. Wee story was splendid and the tunes nae bad either!

    416. Michael McCabe says:

      You might have heard Rod Stewart sing this But this is the original singer who got to number 12 in the 70s

    417. Thepnr says:

      Anyone remember Bill Grundy from the Today show interview with the Sex Pistols 1st Dec 1976? It shot them to stardom and ended his career.

      Well the Sex Pistols should never have been there that night they should have been playing in Dundee’s Caird Hall. Though they had played in Dundee before in their first ever Scottish gig at BDTT’s Bowling Alley.

      In an interview with the New of The World John Lydon told them “I can’t remember anything about it, though I might have taunted some local hooligans”. That was on Oct 12 12th 1976 that they played the Bowling alley. On November 26th five days before appearing on the Today show with Bill Crosby they released this record and the rest is history!

      This is an absolute cracker live from 1976 looking back at it all now.

    418. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Michael.

      Rod Stewart covers. I was first exposed to this song while I was DJ in The Dundee Palais, 1972-74. The resident band “Wichita” did it. I always thought Rod’s cover was a tad insipid.

      And this is a cracker of a track from the same band.

      “Gavin Sutherland (born 6 October 1951, Peterhead, Aberdeenshire, Scotland) – Bassist and vocalist.
      Iain Sutherland (born 17 November 1948, Ellon, Aberdeenshire, Scotland) – Vocalist, guitarist and keyboards.

    419. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @M McC –

      Great track there. Any idea where it was? Unusual set-up there.
      The lass at 3.13 is a total ringer for Michelle Obama, but I’m guessing she must’ve been a wee lass at the time.

    420. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.

      RE: the Sex Pistols’ ONLY gig in Scotland. After they’d soundchecked and so on, Johnny Rotten, having discovered that Frankie Vaughan was on at The Barracuda (next door) that night, decided to pay a visit to “his pal, Frankie”.

      He got to the steps at the front door of ‘the big fish’ and was summarily denied access by the doormen. (Use your imagination!)

    421. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Earth, Wind & Fire, ‘After The Love Has Gone’ (live) –

    422. Thepnr says:

      @Michael McCabe

      I thought Ha! Rod Stewart cover well that’s got to be “In a Broken Dream” under the pseudonym Python Lee Jackson and it’s been played before.

      Wrong again, never heard that before.

    423. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Kinks, ‘A Rock ‘N’ Roll Fantasy –

    424. Michael McCabe says:

      Be Thankful for the 70s

    425. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Have a vague feeling we maybe had this on the MT one Halloween, before Rev pretty-much banned music vids, but I don’t believe it’s ever been in OT.

      R. Dean Taylor, ‘There’s A Ghost In My House’ –

    426. Michael McCabe says:

      @ BDTT I Like the Sutherland Brothers Sailing Though I did not know they we’re the Original. Cheers it made me Quiver. @ Ian Brotherhood I don’t know where it was Ian but they are playing in a American Football Stadium.

    427. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      That R. Dean Taylor song reminded me that before punk in the early 70’s Dundee was also a hotbed of northern soul music and that one was a big hit here.

      There were buses going almost every weekend to Wigan for the soul nights and even now there are still reunions for those that were into their soul music.

      Here’s a wee example from 2010, the golden oldies of Dundee’s soul scene get together again for ainother dance.

      @BDTT you’ll like this as well, real DJ’s feature 🙂

    428. Michael McCabe says:

      Pop Reggae Rock Punk. Some Folks Even like Middle of the Road ?

    429. Michael McCabe says:

      If you feel the need to Dance then this is for you. Thepnr Hope You and yours are doing well.

    430. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.
      In the 70s, Northern Soul was the exact opposite of where I was, musically.

      However, over the years, I have come to appreciate the ‘Northern Soul’ scene and appreciate its cultural value. It’s just another aspect of our diversity. Anther Brian Hyland track.

    431. Fred says:

      Tantrums & Tiara’s on the main thread the night, this is a haven of sanity, fairly miss Oor Smallaxe but!

    432. Thepnr says:

      @Michael McCabe

      Cheers Michael all cawing along canny. Busier the night that’s good to see, wondering where Tinto has got to, mibbe on holiday?

    433. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Fred (11.02) –

      If only you knew brother – if only ye fuckin knew!

      The Bandwagon, ‘Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache’ –

    434. Thepnr says:

      My father is a doctor, he’s a familiarly man,
      My mother works for charity whenever she can

      Do you know the song yet from TOTP 1973?

    435. Thepnr says:

      Oh shit, get that wrong wasn’t TOTP. Must’ve been another video I looked at LOL.

      Fred happy to see you go on give us a tune from the 60’s or 70’s 🙂

    436. Thepnr says:

      OK anecdote time.

      In 1976 I went to see this band at the Apollo, it was during the week and along with a few older apprentices we caught the train from Dundee to Glasgow.

      We left at dinnertime and got to Glasgow far too early so ended up in the pub as soon as we arrived. I was the youngest, just 17 but in those days it wasn’t much problem getting served if you behaved yourself.

      Anyway, 1 hour or so before the concert is due to start we’re in the pub that adjoins the Apollo, I’m let’s say knackered or the worse for wear. My head conks on the table and spills most of the pints that were there.

      Barman doesn’t go mental, he brings out a mop and pail and makes me wipe up the mess. I think I slept through the whole concert LOL.

      This was the band we went to see.

    437. Thepnr says:

      If you haven’t all gone to bed yet then this will put you to sleep.

    438. Thepnr says:

      I’ll leave you with this. Goodnight all.

    439. Ian Brotherhood says:

      What about this?!

      Wayne Gibson, ‘Under My Thumb’ –

    440. Michael McCabe says:

      Nana if you still pop your head in here now and again. Then this is for you and your other half.

    441. Michael McCabe says:

      I will say Goodnight and leave you with this.

    442. Michael McCabe says:

      Just a wee toe tapper.

    443. Vestas says:

      Me and probably 5 other people on Lewis were into the Pistols back then. Cost me a bloody fortune to get the singles then albums sent from London – postage was way more than the cost of a single.

      The same singles/albums started turning up in the two (no joke) places on the island which sold music about 18 months later 🙂

    444. Ian Brotherhood says:

      That was a good laugh last night, and some excellent sounds.

      Here’s another…

      Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Titch, ‘Hold Tight’ –

    445. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      Here’s a different Equals track for you.

    446. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @M McC –


      Never seen that before…


    447. crazycat says:

      I’m hesitating about posting this, but time is short:

      Some of you may know that we’re opening a shop in Kilmarnock next weekend – with a bit of help from the Wee Ginger Dug. We’ve also been trying to raise funds, and not reached our target, with less than a day to go.

      That’s partly because there are so many people asking for donations right now, so I do feel awkward asking, but just in case anyone has a bit of spare cash – it doesn’t matter how little – and would like to earn Yes East Ayrshire’s eternal gratitude, here’s a link:

      The grand opening may be a bit crowded, but anyone happening to be in Kilmarnock thereafter is most welcome to call by and see us – there will be tea/coffee and quite possibly cake.

    448. Shinty says:


      I sent a small donation, from what I hear this is a big Brit Nat area. You have a lot of work to do.

      All the best to you and your team.

    449. Thepnr says:


      I never ever thought of you as the shy type 🙂 wish you’d let us know sooner. Still even though you never made your target this time it worked out a little better and I’m sure they’ll be more in future.

      On a different note. Today just has to be the day for playing this relatively new one from YEW CHOOB “Arlene”.

    450. SOG says:

      The Rev recently forwarded a tweet from Raptor Persecution Scotland about Driven Grouse Shooting.

      Those interested will find a further story on that blog which features the media distorting reality in an attack aimed at the SNP. In case such further examples were needed.

    451. Thepnr says:

      @Paula Rose

      That was a great tune and great lyrics. Class.

    452. crazycat says:

      @ Shinty at 7.28

      Thanks; that’s much appreciated.

      @ Thepnr at 8.49

      I didn’t mention it before because it’s a local thing and there are other nationwide calls on our generosity just now. Then when it stalled a bit I thought I’d be brave and lo and behold…

      Thank you all very much.

      (I used to be absolutely cripplingly shy – or proud and not wanting to make a fool of myself perhaps – and I still haven’t overcome it enough to enjoy public speaking, for instance. But progress has been and continues to be made.)

    453. William Wallace says:

      One fir the mighty Sma and all the true Scottish SoulJahs out there.

      Rise Up.

      One fir the blood and soil 😉

      The origin o wir language

      The Tree

      It’s inside ye

      The Gael – Albannach

      Guid nicht 🙂

    454. William Wallace says:

      @ Shinty

      Dougs version is braw but, the artwork, thunder and emotion in Albannach’s version is first class.

      Fir me Dougs best tune has to be the one he is best known fir.


      Eh fkin love meh country man. What a beautiful place it is. What a great people we are.

      Goodbye Westmonster – You will rule us no more.

    455. Michael McCabe says:

      Trump vs Talking Heads

    456. Michael McCabe says:

      A Wee bit of Mellow Music from Norah Jones to Listen to while catching up on my reading on the main Thread.

    457. Shinty says:

      William Wallace – I agree. Would love to see Albannach live.

      I’m trying to learn the lyrics to ‘Scotland is her name’ – great song.

    458. Fred says:

      A wee puzzler fur the troops! who wrote/sang this song?

      “Still Gonnae Die!

      You can quit smoking but yer still gonnae die,
      Cut oot Cokin & yer still gonnae die,
      Eliminate everything fatty or fried & you’ll get real healthy but yer still gonnae die!
      Stop drinkin booze, yer still gonnae die, stey away fae coos, yer still gonna die.
      Cut oot coffee & never get high but yer still gonnae, still gonnae, still gonnae die!

      More verses to this, could it be from Imlach mebbes?

      Where’s Smallaxe when U need him?

    459. Thepnr says:

      Bear with me just a wee test. Avatar problems, one more post after this will give me the answer, hopefully.

    460. Thepnr says:

      The last post 🙂

    461. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Fred 2:28pm Hi Fred The Song Still Gonna Die was Written by a guy called Shel Silverstein. He also wrote a boy named sue and 25 minutes to go. J Cash recorded them. he also wrote a lot for Dr Hook including there whole second album. hits including Silvia’s Mother. Queen of the Silver Dollar. Judy Collins has recorded his songs. Also Loretta lynn Marianne Faithfull Belinda Carlyle & Emmylou harris. The McCalmans sing Still gonna die. I Miss Smallaxe too.

    462. Michael McCabe says:

      Here is some Music to go with the Dancing Planes.

    463. Thepnr says:

      Fell asleep on the settee watching Star Trek LOL. Woke up and wanted to give you a song. Freaking out 🙂–rU

    464. Michael McCabe says:

      Thepnr that’s what happens when you get spaced out 😀

    465. Fred says:

      @ Michael, thanks for solving that wee mystery kid! Gravity gets us all in the end!

    466. Andy smith says:

      Heedtracker, was past my bedtime last night so didn’t get chance to reply re my post on saturated fats.
      The low fat industry is just another con, and many bodies are now coming round to the fact that many saturated fats are indeed healthy.
      Suggest reading ‘ eat fat to lose fat’ by researcher Sally Fallon.
      Some facts on sat fats, African people’s such as the Masai and sumburu consume around twice the amount of sat fat in their diets through milk and meat than average western diet.
      Similarly Somalians do so with diet consisting of camel milk which is high in butter fat.
      Traditional Inuit diet was almost wholly sat fats.
      What all these people’s have in common is almost an absence of heart disease, and much lower bad cholesterol levels.
      Even in uk a study carried out in 1965 by the BMA on heart attack patients trialled 3 different diets, with one group given corn oil, 2nd group olive oil,and third group sat fats, after 2 years 52% of first group were still living, 57% of 2nd group, and 75% of third group.
      Imo sugar and processed oils are bigger danger to circulate health than natural foods such as milk and butter.

    467. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There seems to be some evidence that a shortage of healthy fat in diets might be contributing to the increased incidence of MND

    468. Michael McCabe says:

      Meanwhile. Further on down the Road

    469. Tinto Chiel says:

      The video’s dated but the music ain’t.

      Avert your gaze, Wingers…..

    470. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Believe it or not, I’ve never ever seen that video. I remember hearing that track on a really crackly radio and being blown away by it but hardly anyone seemed to know anything about them. It was probably on a John Peel show, and *years* before I heard it again and made the connection that it was a Scottish.

      Here’s something a bit tasty, from Bowie’s last album. Fantastic bass on it, you can easily imagine it in the theme for a Bond movie.

      Bowie, ‘Sue’ –

    471. Tinto Chiel says:

      Evening, Mr B.

      PB still lives in the Byres Road area I fink but I s’ppose it’s all over now for him, professionally, that is.

      That Bowie was pretty hard-edged for an Old ‘Un: off-beat percussion and a very interesting bass line.

      The music of the spheres assails us every day: some of us are deaf, some of us are mute.

      Me, I just filosifise.

    472. crazycat says:

      Just to let everyone know our Yes East Ayrshire shop is now open.

      Yesterday went very well, the Wee Ginger Dug was well-received as ever, and Paul was pretty good too 🙂

      Thanks again for all the support from here; we’re sure it made a big difference.

      Henceforth we are hoping to be open Monday to Saturday, so if you’re passing, do please look in. (Hours to be confirmed, but previously 10-4 was achievable.)

    473. Tinto Chiel says:

      Not long now until the darkest time of the year. I keep away from the north side of kirkyards and make sure the kitchen window’s shut when I go to bed.

      If you’re watching this late at night, you did make sure you closed it, didn’t you? Didn’t you……?


    474. Thepnr says:

      Rather hard to pick a favourite Scottish film. One worth watching though was “A Sense of Freedom” about notorious Glesga hard man Jimmy Boyle.

      Why do I like it? Probably because it takes me back to 1960’s and 70’s Glasgow and the life that he led was not that much different from mine in respect of our environment and the influences around you in those times.

      The man that went in was different from the man that came out of Barlinnie. Everyone deserves a second chance if they can change their ways from that which shaped their lives from their beginning as they had no say in the enviroment they were born into.

    475. Thepnr says:

      First time I’ve made that mistake, was meant for the main thread. Oops.

    476. Thepnr says:

      Must be my turn to put the jukebox on again. Now this IS good!

    477. William Wallace says:

      Music that moves 😉

      Visca el Barça i Visca Catalunya

    478. Thepnr says:

      @William Wallace & Tinto Chiel

      Cheers for those, I love the music that people play here. helps if your of a certain age of course. We don’t get many younger ones around here more’s the pity.

      Just one for tonight but a goody. Early 70’s T Rex(again)LOL

    479. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thepnr, amen to all that, but you have to remember: we are retro, we are sophisticates.

      Whatever happened to Fred and K1? I loved K1’s swearing.

      Takes me back to Coprolite times…..

    480. Thepnr says:

      K1 is still making the occasional appearance over on the main thread, she does like a good rant and I’m all for that 🙂

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