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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    1. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Eh’m giving the matter some thought.

      Eh’ve a bottle o cheap single malt fae Lidls that Eh wiz gonna treh oot. Ben Bracken Islay joab.

      Described as “Powerful and unforgettable with a barrage of aromas, tangy sea spray, bonfire smoke, salted bananas and baked apples to arouse the senses”

      What do you reckon? Should eh treh it? 😉

    2. William Wallace says:


      Thir’s mair.

      “A generous mouthful of flavours rewards the palate with moist walnut cake, allspice, sea salt, chocolate and black coffee”

      Think eh might hae to eat it instead 🙂

    3. Cactus says:

      Ffs, I can taste it fae here,

      Get yerself battered in there

      Aye join ye in a dram.

      A wee hauf.

    4. William Wallace says:

      /Pours Cactus a wee hauf…

      Pint 🙂

    5. Cactus says:

      Do you ice, water, or leave it be to breathe?

    6. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      Well? Curious for your verdict. Don’t touch the hard stuff meself but most Lidl stuff I’ve ever had seems to make the grade.

      BTW, that vid I tried to post was about Liz The Queen doing a druidic ceremony in Wales prior to her coronation. Looks gen enough, British Pathe Reel stuff. Utterly bizarre.

      Just put Queen and Druidic in the Youtube and it’ll come up.

    7. William Wallace says:

      Usually just drap ice cubes in, let them melt doon a wee bit and sip away. Eh’ve some different flavoured waters that eh am tempted to treh oot though oot o curiosity.

      May as well experiment wi this bottle as it’s less than 20 quid a pop.

    8. Cactus says:

      Cheers fur ra wee hauf William Wallace 🙂

      This could get messy…

      Ahm already mixin’ the grape n the grain.

      Speaking of wine.. I don’t have any socks on.

      That makes me..?

      (a wee hauf an hour tae go…)

    9. Alex Clark says:

      I’ll hae a huaf tae and a bit o that cake if there’s ony left 🙂

    10. Fred says:

      Ben Bracken is VG & good value, a teaspoon of watter & you’re away kid!

    11. Cactus says:

      Cheers to ye Alex ~

      We could be on for a bonanza tonight!

      And that’s without oor oil hehe 🙂 🙂 🙂

    12. William Wallace says:

      /Pours abody a wee dram or twa and shares the cake.

      It’s no bad at ah. Eh’m pleasantly surprised. It’s quite a smooth affair. Was expecting it to be a bit rough.

    13. Alex Clark says:

      The mood on Wings ebbs and flows with the mood of the contributors and I tie all of that into the news being reported at the time.

      Seems obvious really, recently though I have noticed a large jump in posts that would like to keep you depressed, not from the usual suspects but from complete unknowns.

      I think there upping the ante against Wings and really was to be expected as the goal for Unionists has to be to demoralise those that still openly flaunt their support of Independence by posting on Wings or even wearing badges during the week.

      Such acts of sedition are not to be tolerated!

      One good one last week was from Blair Patterson he posted that he was living in England and had been banned from phoning in to LBC radio, then he said he lived in Camberly. I didn’t know exactly where that was so looked it up on Google Maps as I’m guessing he thought some of us may do.

      Take a look and try typing Camberly into Google Maps and see what is most prominent landmark. Hahaha just Blairs wee joke I’m sure.

    14. Cactus says:

      There is always midnight.

    15. Cactus says:

      ps cheers for earlier boss, good call, ye ken.

    16. Alex Clark says:

      Right Cactus get your best tune with Midnight in the lyrics and get it on Off Topic bang on the bells.

      Get it on, bang it on LOL

    17. William Wallace says:

      The “Midnight Ploughboy” in the sang “The Portree Kid” beh ra Corries is meh nomination.

    18. Cactus says:

      Here’s a groovy random one for ye…

      Though the main one is on the main thread.

      Well did you hear about the Midnight Rambler?:

      Sometimes he’s a gambler too.

      AHM. ALL. IN.

    19. William Wallace says:

      It’s ah moving to slow fir persistent comedy.

      * except fir viewers in Scotland. 😉

    20. Alex Clark says:

      Well done guys, loved the Midnight Ploughboy and am currently tapping my slippers to the Rolling Stones “Midnight Rambler”.

    21. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      Eh ken it’s a snakes and ladders gemme but, it doesnae half remind me o a good gemme o family monopoly. 🙂

      Should see oor hoose when that gemme gets brought oot. Grown adults reduced to bairns lol. Eh’m no even kidding.

      It actually carries across generations. Mum, Dad and bairns on the same team v’s Mum, Dad and bairns on the other team. Meh femily are ah fkin mental eh swear tae god 🙂

    22. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      That’s a great thing and how it should be 🙂 Who’s family ism’t mental? The Wings one is LOL.

      By the way I thought you might have been Gary Robertson who you said you were a pal of. I know now I was wrong because he is an arab and not a dee 🙂

      OK off to bed we’ll meet up one day Wullie, maybe in the Ferry on 11 November. I haven’t started pushing it yet hope you lot will help if we’re going to do this. At the end of the day though it only matters that those that to turn up do.

      Too many people shy away from Wings though first time in the Ferry was a big success in my eyes. Let’s see.

    23. Cactus says:

      Off topic is excellent.

      Time check.

    24. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      Eh will treh meh best to be there. There is a couple of pals wanting to come but, there is an event in Douglas later this month tae that we are ah heading up fir.

      It’s described as a wee social but, with an independence theme. It’s on the 22nd o this month in Douglas. Since me and Barry (Biv) are born and bred Douglas Toddy, we are coming up fir that.

      Eh’ve a wedding on the 11th and meh mither is coming doon to see wi aroond the same time. Eh might reverse her trip and head up the road instead and grab Biv on the wey.

      Eh didnae ken wither we could hiv caught a few fowk fae the SIC the week afore fir a wee git the gither??

      Eh’ll leave it to you on that ane.

      Eh did treh and catch yiz ah in Glasgow but, eh had a great day and night oot onyway. Hope wi kin hae another ane next month.

    25. CameronB Brodie says:

      I suppose you could get away with suggesting contemporary Scotland is a bit like Greece without the sunshine. Might as well give up then, as I doubt an iScotland will be much sunnier. 😉

      Cultural Identity and Cultural Policy:
      Manipulating Expectations in Contemporary Greece

      “One could say, without exaggerating that the crisis of identity constitutes the central problem of modern Greek society the constitutive element of contemporary Hellenism and the axis around which our modern history revolves” (Tsaoussis 1982:17).

      This paper starts with a short critic of rigidly separating ‘the civic’ from ‘the ethnic’ in nationalism theories as well as mapping them broadly as ‘good’ and ‘bad’ respectively. It further doubts the potential of such theories to provide explanations for the case of Greece. On the background of attitudes towards ‘co-ethnics’ during recent years where Greece has been transformed from a sender to a receiver society, the paper suggests that things might be subtler than that. It then turns to one widely accepted ‘ethnic’ theme of ‘Greekness’, namely the link between Modern Greece and Ancient Greece and, after presenting schematically its development, the paper investigates its possible persistence in Greek ‘public culture’ through a discussion of data in cultural policy.

      It further explores how people might use what is ‘ethnically’ expected of them both in conventional and in ‘unexpected’ ways, as well as the conceptual and pragmatic implications of such uses. It, thus, investigates how cultural identity-expectations are used in everyday life and the active influence they might have on the possibility of action. The paper considers turning to the use of metaphors in conception in search of a subtler understanding of cultural identity construction and use. It suggests a more nuanced approach to understanding how identity is constructed and wishes to imply that an investigation of the case of Greece could provide novel tools for both theorising and understanding areas with similar itineraries but also other ‘unexpected’ ones.

    26. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wonder what procedures were followed when the National Trust for Scotland chose their latest President?

      Evaluating Political Claims Based on Cultural Identity
      The aim of this paper is to explore the concept of cultural identity as it is invoked in contemporary political discourse. Is cultural identity a coherent concept? Do claims of preservation of cultures rest on solid philosophical grounds? How can we determine which claims of cultural identity are valid and which are not? Or is the case that the concept of cultural identity is so vague that we should abandon it altogether? I will try to answer these questions by engaging into a polemic with Paul Gilbert arguments presented in his book Cultural Identity and Political Ethics. The advantage of this book, as mentioned before, is that addresses the issue of cultural identity on its own merit without invoking any particular ideological framework. Therefore, it offers a good starting point from which to address these questions.

    27. Tinto Chiel says:

      *Whistling, unlocks door to Paula’s gaff.

      Surveys scene.

      Locks door to Paula’s gaff.*

      What’s been seen can’t be unseen…

    28. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      “…the horror…the horror…”

    29. Fred says:

      Y’ye think Rock could actually be the Rev Stu? 🙂

    30. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      So, how’s the heid after that experiment with the Lidl cratur?


    31. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian/Mistah Kurtz, it was the blow-up dolls of Alan Gilzean and Eamonn Bannon, the Swarfega stains and everywhere the nuts, the nuts, the nuts…

      *Hides head in hands to expunge image*

      “D’ye think Rock could actually be the Rev Stu? ?”

      Fred, at the height of Petra-Clypegate last night, the same thought occurred to me. I said nothing, fearing the scorn and opprobrium of The Righteous.

      I still hae ma doots…

    32. Fred says:

      Ditto Tinto! She/he appears to have take it upon itself to monitor the site of late hence the question.

      I once knew the editor of an august journal who, when things were a bit slack on the letters page had a couple of spanners which he threw into the works & encouraged debate. There is however a vast difference between a spanner & a fanny! One slackens nuts & the other is nuts!

    33. Tinto Chiel says:

      And Insensate Dave returns! Silly old sausage!

      Rock seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of btl comments by Robert R, Alex C and Ian B in particular: very stalky, very stalky indeed. His wee 77 Brigade memory stick must be rid-het.

    34. CameronB Brodie says:

      Greed and fear in the everyday world culminates in the same blind inability Solzhenitsyn recognized in the camps – the same incapacity to think about grief, about the past and future, about man and God – but with far less evident justification. Fear of mortality, in normal life, is most generally dealt with in the same manner as in the camp situation: through absolute identification with the system, and consequent rejection of the self; through acceptance of ideological promise, offer of material security and guarantee of (unearned) intrapsychic stability:

      “My friend Panin and I are lying on the middle shelf of a Stolypin compartment and have set ourselves up comfortably, tucked our salt herring in our pockets so we don’t need water and can go to sleep. But at some station or other they shove into our compartment… a Marxist scholar! We can even tell this from his goatee and spectacles. He doesn’t hide the fact: he is a former Professor of the Communist Academy. We hang head down in the square cutout – and from his very first words we see that he is: impenetrable. But we have been serving time for a long while, and have a long time left to serve, and we value a merry joke. We must climb down to have a bit of fun! There is ample space left in the compartment, and so we exchange places with someone and crowd in: ….”

      Human beings are emotionally attached to those whom with they identify; sympathy for the victim of injustice means inability to perpetrate such injustice. Identification with tyranny, on the other hand, means temporary effortless surcease from painful (intra and extrapsychic) moral conflict. Such identification merely requires denial of the injustice committed to one’s own person, and the subsequent falsification of individual experience. This falsification cuts the empathic bonds, connecting prisoner to prisoner – connecting man to man – connecting man to himself:

      “I shall despair. There is no creature loves me;
      And if I die, no soul will pity me:
      Nay, wherefore should they, since that I myself
      Find in myself no pity to myself.”516

    35. William Wallace says:

      @ Ian

      Sair 🙂

      Making a nice lamb chop curry the now though so that will hopefully cure ah meh ills and get me back to normal. (Well, eh use the term “normal” loosely here 🙂 Getting me back to my normal state of mental might be mair apt). 😉

    36. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      Re: Lidl’s whisky. The name on the bottle is “Clydesdale Scotch Whisky Company Ltd, Glasgow”.

      What is of interest is that for a few years, Lidl’s whisky was supplied by William Grant, using the above company name on the bottles.

      Some time in the past year or three, Whyte & Mackay took over the supply of Lidl’s whisky – but still use the “Clydesdale Scotch Whisky Company Ltd” name on the bottles.

      Strange, iye?

      Yooz who like delving into things may find this link of interest:-

      One of the pdf’s under “Filing History” – “11 Dec 2015 Annual return made up to 13 November 2015 with full list of shareholders Statement of capital on 2015-12-11” – lists the address as,

      148 Terregles Avenue,
      G41 4RR.

      The company is referred to as “dormant” – every year since 2011.

      I’ll be asking questions later…

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. (t)Ruthless Harrison commenting on mental health. I told you she has a brass neck, as neo-liberalism both demands and produces social inequality.

      Poverty, inequality and a political economy of mental health.

      The relationship between poverty and mental health is indisputable. However, to have an influence on the next set of sustainable global development goals, we need to understand the causal relationships between social determinants such as poverty, inequality, lack of education and unemployment; thereby clarifying which aspects of poverty are the key drivers of mental illness. Some of the major challenges identified by Lund (2014) in understanding the poverty-mental health relationship are discussed including: the need for appropriate poverty indicators; extending this research agenda to a broader range of mental health outcomes; the need to engage with theoretical concepts such as Amartya Sen’s capability framework; and the need to integrate the concept of income/economic inequality into studies of poverty and mental health. Although income inequality is a powerful driver of poor physical and mental health outcomes, it features rarely in research and discourse on social determinants of mental health.

      This paper interrogates in detail the relationships between poverty, income inequality and mental health, specifically: the role of income inequality as a mediator of the poverty-mental health relationship; the relative utility of commonly used income inequality metrics; and the likely mechanisms underlying the impact of inequality on mental health, including direct stress due to the setting up of social comparisons as well as the erosion of social capital leading to social fragmentation. Finally, we need to interrogate the upstream political, social and economic causes of inequality itself, since these should also become potential targets in efforts to promote sustainable development goals and improve population (mental) health. In particular, neoliberal (market-oriented) political doctrines lead to both increased income inequality and reduced social cohesion. In conclusion, understanding the relationships between politics, poverty, inequality and mental health outcomes requires us to develop a robust, evidence-based ‘political economy of mental health.

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      @(t)Ruthless Harrison
      I have asked before, is it self-awareness or a sense of ethical morality that you lack? Do you or do you not support Brexit? How will that impact on Scotland’s poor?

      Neoliberalism and health inequalities

      This chapter deals with neoliberalism and its impacts in terms of inequalities in general, and health inequalities in particular. It begins by describing the historical and political roots of neoliberalism, before moving on to consider the various ways in which ideas associated with neoliberalism have been implemented across different contexts (with a particular focus on the UK and the USA). Next, the chapter draws on empirical data to consider how and why neoliberalism is implicated in the rise in, and persistence of, health inequalities, before reviewing key debates surrounding the pathways linking neoliberal policies and practices with poor health outcomes. The chapter concludes with a critical assessment of public health’s failure to address the links between neoliberal policies/practices and health inequalities, arguing that this has led to an unjustified focus on theories which have little prospect of explaining, or catalysing action to reduce, health inequalities.

    39. CameronB Brodie says:

      @(t)Ruthless Harrison
      Here’s one you could possibly share with your David Torrance. Perhaps he can elucidate further, the next time he is presented as an ‘expert’ on the BBC in Scotland.

      Neoliberalism Viewed From the Couch
      Insights about economics gathered from a psychoanalyst’s couch

      Neoliberalism has all the characteristics of a totalitarian discourse without being a political regime. It is so totalitarian that it has even consumed politics—our politicians are obeying the dictates coming from the financial world. As a totalitarian discourse, it has taken over education, health care, art—it is very hard to escape from it. It’s ‘The Invasion of the Body Snatchers’ (an old movie) all over. But it contains a basic flaw, and today, that flaw is causing a turn towards new discourse. The result of neoliberalism is that it sets us apart; it obliges us to become competitive individuals and only competitive individuals. Of course, humans are competitive, but we should not forget that we are also social. We need a group to feel good. The mantra of neoliberalism, put forward by Thatcher, says exactly the opposite: ‘There is no such thing as a society, there are only individuals’. Well, that idea has reached its limit; people are looking for new ways to set up groups. These groups are organizing themselves in a more cooperative way, meaning that both the individual and the community thrive. Think of the transition movement, think of deliberative democracy (Fishkin).

    40. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex Clark (again).

      An addition to my reply to you – “Brian Doonthetoon on 9 October, 2017 at 12:02 am” at:-

      The quote bekow is from the Wikipedia page “Cultural depictions of Robert the Bruce” at:-

      Robert Burns set his poem Scots Wha Hae, the words of which were originally stated to be taken from Bruce’s address to his troops at the Battle of Bannockburn, to an old Scots tune, Hey Tuttie Tatie.[6] As a military march, Marche des soldats de Robert Bruce, this tune is part of the repertoire of the French military.[6][7]
      14th century: A military song entitled “La marche des soldats de Robert Bruce” (march of the soldiers of Robert Bruce) is still played in France nowadays, for instance during the Bastille Day military parade.”

    41. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tory policy would ultimately enslave society to the irrationality and savagery of market forces. The British Labour party sing from roughly the same hymn-sheet.

      “Neoliberal theorists are, however, profoundly suspicious of democracy. Governance by majority rule is seen as a potential threat to individual rights and constitutional liberties. Democracy is viewed as a luxury, only possible under conditions of relative affluence coupled with a strong middle-class presence to guarantee political stability. Neoliberals therefore tend to favour governance by experts and elites.” ? David Harvey

      Simon Clarke
      The ideological foundations of neo-liberalism

      Neoliberalism presents itself as a doctrine based on the inexorable truths of modern economics. However, despite its scientific trappings, modern economics is not a scientific discipline but the rigorous elaboration of a very specific social theory, which has become so deeply embedded in western thought as to have established itself as no more than common sense, despite the fact that its fundamental assumptions are patently absurd. The foundations of modern economics, and of the ideology of neoliberalism, go back to Adam Smith and his great work, The Wealth of Nations. Over the past two centuries Smith’s arguments have been formalised and developed with greater analytical rigour, but the fundamental assumptions underpinning neoliberalism remain those proposed by Adam Smith….

      How to think like a neoliberal: Can every decision and choice really be conceived as a market decision?

      School choice: neoliberal education policy and imagined futures

      Most recent policies and programmes of educational reform have been framed, justified and promoted on a widely held belief that aligning educational policies and practices with the economic, political and cultural changes that globalization signifies is necessary. However, this signification has mostly been couched in neoliberal terms– the view that globalization is largely an economic phenomenon, in which markets play a fundamental role in reconfiguring the nature of social relations. So globally ubiquitous has this mode of thinking become that it can appropriately be referred to as a ‘social imaginary’. The neoliberal imaginary of globalization has re-cast the purposes and governance of education, viewing it in human capital terms while supporting individual self-interests in an increasingly competitive society. This paper suggests that the contemporary era demands new ways of interpreting global interconnectivity and interdependence beyond globalization’s economic possibilities, but also as underpinned by moral and intercultural concerns. Hence, the need to work towards global common goods is greater now than ever before, as a way of ensuring that the world does not continue to slide into ever-increasing levels of inequalities, distrust and social conflict.

    42. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Has onnybuddy delved further into the affairs of the “CLYDESDALE SCOTCH WHISKY COMPANY LTD” mentioned in my post just before 5pm?

      Hi Willie Wallace, Lidl whisky drinker. Here are two for you. Emma poet an’ doan eh know it.

    43. CameronB Brodie says:

      @David Torrance
      What might a future UK society and politics look like, cut adrift from the EU and following a doctrine of Anglo-American neo-liberalism?

      Public Pedagogy and the Politics of Neo-liberalism:
      making the political more pedagogical

      ABSTRACT Neo-liberalism has reached a new stage in the United States, buttressed largely by the almost seamless alliances formed among the Bush administration, religious fundamentalists, neo-conservative extremists, the dominant media, and corporate elites. This article explores the various ways in which neo-liberal cultural politics works as a form of public pedagogy to devalue the meaning of the social contract, education, and citizenship by defining higher education primarily as a financial investment and learning as a form of training for the workforce. Aggressively fostering its attack on the welfare state, unions, non-commodified public spheres, and any critical vestige of critical education, neo-liberal politics makes it increasingly more difficult to address the necessity of a political education in which active and critical political agents have to be formed, educated, and socialized into the world of politics. This article explores how the intersection of cultural studies and public pedagogy offers a challenge to both the ideology and practice of neo-liberalism as a form of cultural politics. In doing, so it outlines how the pedagogical can become more political in the classroom and how the political can become more pedagogical outside of the classroom via the educational force of the wider culture.

    44. K1 says:

      For anyone not sure of the definition of what ‘stalking’ is. Look no further than Rock’s comments to Petra on the MT. That is blatant stalking of her comments from a total nut job.

      Who does he think he is? The Rev Stuart Campbell?


    45. William Wallace says:

      @ BDTT

      Cheers for the excellent sangs. Sangs and discussions aboot the berries aywiz bring back some great memories. 🙂

      Here’s ane back fir yi but, Alex might no like it 😉

      Living next door to an Arab !!!

    46. Tinto Chiel says:

      K1: yes, Coprolite’s getting more and more tiresome.

      Fortunately there is always the scroller.

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, it would be extremely difficult to separate BritNat culture and Anglo-American neo-liberalism. Scotland deserves better, don’t you think?

      Neoliberalism in Britain: From Thatcherism to Cameronism
      Thatcherism as Political Phenomenon

      Eric J. Evans (2013) characterises Thatcherism as a fusion of neoliberal economic policy making and authoritarian state politics in matters of the nation, the military, law and order, crime and the police. “She believed in: individual rights, particularly in economic matters; private enterprise within a free market; firm, sometimes authoritarian, leadership; low levels of personal taxation; union and vested-interest bashing; simple, unqualified, patriotism” (Evans 2013, 3).

      Hay and Farrall (2014) understand Thatcherism as a combination of neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism characterised by “distrust of ‘big’ government; support for ‘traditional values’ (however defined); a focus on the ‘freeing’ of the economy from the control of the state; a reliance on the market as the most efficient mechanism for resource distribution and an associated normative commitment to the sanctity of the individual and individual choice” (Hay and Farrall 2014, 9).

      N.B. Contemporary British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism.

    48. CameronB Brodie says:

      Anglo-American neo-liberalism is a product of English and American culture. Anglo-American neo-liberalism thrives in an environment of social Darwinism.

      The “neoliberal period”

      We share Neil’s view that capitalism involves both continuity and “periodic changes, which are an expression of its historical development”. The economic crisis of the early to mid-1970s signalled the end of the long post-war boom and saw the exhaustion of a set of arrangements by the ruling class that had often been attributed to Keynesian economic policy. Spearheaded by Britain and the US, what followed was a reorganisation of capitalism, which has gone on under what Chris Harman describes as the “rubric of neoliberalism”,3 to address a succession of crises that were ultimately rooted in the long-term decline in the rate of profit.4

      ….For most activists neoliberalism is a short-hand pejorative term for universal and toxic developments in capitalism. However, the first consolidation of the notion of neoliberalism as an ideological project can be traced back to the Mont Pelerin Society in 1947. A group of economists, the leading light among whom was Friedrich von Hayek, drafted a statement advocating a limited role for the state and the centrality of private property and competition. Yet in practice neoliberalism is always and everywhere pragmatic—it is not matter of imposing some blueprint with the clear endpoint of a pure free-market utopia. Taken to its logical extremes, a free market would imply no restrictions on, for example, child labour or the open sale of uranium.10 More importantly, as Neil acknowledges, neoliberalism has never meant complete liberalisation and/or the retreat of the state—rather it has been about the capturing and restructuring of the state in the interests of capital accumulation and the restoration of profit. It denotes a particular form of state-market relations—not a linear path towards a purely free-market state.

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for the “Semiotic Kid”, Sev Carell.

      The Semiotics of Place: Autonomy and Space


      In a New York Times article commenting on the protest movements which unsettled the status quo from Tahrir Square in Cairo to Zuccotti Park in New York City, the author cautions that ‘we tend to underestimate the political power of physical places’ (Kimmelman 2011: SRI). In this chapter we argue that neither should we underestimate the power of place in relation to language education, nor its relevance for learner autonomy. Benson (2011: 58) defines autonomy as ‘the capacity to take control of one’s own learning’ and characterizes it as encompassing three dimensions: control over learning management (cf. Holec 1981), control over cognitive processing (cf. Little 1991), and control over content. We propose a fourth dimension: space. How learners imagine a space to be, perceive it, define it, and articulate their understandings transforms a space into a place, determines what they do there, and influences their autonomy.

    50. Liz g says:

      Just a shout out to say Hi to Smallaxe.
      We are all still thinking of ye….and sending love and strength to you and Mrs Smallaxe both.XX
      Haste ye back my dear friend !!

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      Rock’s game is very simple. Whenever he/she/it sees a squabble breaking out, as it often does for some odd reason, it takes one side or the other to try to increase the division. The idea is that the other one will be happy about having “support”, and will go along with it and maybe even join in, hence making the division wider and maybe lasting longer.

      Meanwhile other posters join in on one side or the other, and it sits back and feeds off the carcasses as blood is spilt in all directions. Kind of like a carrion crow, but rather than waiting for roadkill, it does its best to cause the blood in the first place.

      That’s what it feeds off. When there’s no division, it’s just the usual boring “National subsidises the Herald with its falling sales while having falling sales itself”. Which doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it causes disruption.

    52. Tinto Chiel says:

      We need some armour-plating.

    53. Fred says:

      @ Brian, Terregles Avenue isn’t my “Bit!” but is a residential street in Pollokshields, so a semi-bungalow sounds about right!

    54. Tinto Chiel says:

      And I’m playing this again, ‘cos she had the voice of an angel and I still can’t get it out of my head:

      She had a wee Scots grannie who taught her Fhir a’Bhata, of course…

      (Can’t do a grave on the middle ‘a’ in this field: shoulda C&P’d it, I know.)

      If you’re out there Smallaxe and are feeling better, did you know any of Fairport Convention? Would love to know.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      Cried when she died, took a couple of years to get over it. Saw Fairport live a couple of times at a fairly small venue at Uni. Knew a guy (deceased) who did some gigs with her on the circuit.

    56. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, YIR2: very sad, and the band didn’t have much luck with that terrible crash. Can understand your feelings.

      In a way it makes her and their achievement all the more precious, though.

      Seems so long ago and I feel very old now, frankly.


      Good job I don’t drink 😛 !

    57. Tinto Chiel says:

      Meant to say, before they drag me off for personality realignment,
      apart from her unforgettable voice, the guitar playing on that track is very delicate, and even the drumming on such a gentle song is beautifully done: each verse’s is quite different. A great production, all in all.

      What’s that, Harvey? Time to count some carrots?


    58. yesindyref2 says:

      Had a girl-friend played and sang this one for me, couldn’t really handle it, too intense. I was young!. Used to get Shivers when I heard Sandy sing it after (I’ve got the vinyl).


    59. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, that was a bit OTT, here’s one I used to play in Indy Ref 1 thinking of us under Westminster “going to shut it down”.

      and I’m quite agnostic about the monarchy!

    60. Tinto Chiel says:

      Days, indeed.

      “Is it perfume from a dress/makes me so digress?”

      Really must go: Harvey’s calling.

    61. Alex Clark says:

      “What’s that, Harvey? Time to count some carrots?”

      Got that wee joke Tinto LOL Great film and played “the song” before.

    62. yesindyref2 says:

      Aye days. Maybe this should be a theme for Indy Ref 2 about the UK of UK (got there seeing Iggy Pop) at the side:

    63. Alex Clark says:


      That was class and a first 🙂

    64. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, Alex, “Mad World” is one of those melancholy earworm tunes you can’t forget easily. As for Donny Darko, I’m flying somewhere on Sunday, so would prefer not to think about it 😛

      Missed Mr Dwight’s ditty the first time around: nice retrained production, I have to say!

      Thank God Scotland’s got a big national parachute at its disposal…

    65. Paula Rose says:

      I see that there is a nasty stone in the shoe that is the main thread – new readers will certainly be impressed.

    66. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      In case naebdee has noticed, the page at

      is still active. Latest post tonight, at 7:37pm.

    67. Tinto Chiel says:

      Tory walks down a street…

    68. Alex Clark says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      I get your point about the tail end of threads, good patrolling.

    69. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Brilliant vid there, haven’t seen it for yonks.


    70. Fred says:

      Is there a collective noun for fannies? a posse’ mebbes!

    71. Betty Boop says:

      @ Alex Clark

      Dear Mr Clark,
      Kindly add moi and t’other half to your Ferry booking. I am sure the itinerary and dress code will follow soon.
      Kind regards & toodle-oo the noo,

      PS. Dunno how you are keeping your list, but, can I suggest that info is posted in the lounge over on Quarantine?

    72. Alex Clark says:

      @Betty Boop

      That’s you and Jim booked in 🙂

      Regarding a “list” all I wanted was to know that enough folk were interested so that’s 15 now. In the next few days I’ll mention it on the main thread now and again.

      As it gets closer say a week or so before would be good if others did too. I don’t want to mention a list on the main thread as it might put people off. Let them say they’re coming and sure I’ll update it.

      Thanks again Betty glad that you and the other half can make it.

    73. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I heard a good joke the other day so I thought I’d make an epic poem about it

      Wee Sammy Gow
      The coort is fu’, the jury’s gowpin
      The polis leads wee Sammy Gow in
      He’s four fit nine an no an inch mair
      An skelly wi’ it and no much hair
      Coorts tae rise, the polis says
      The judge swirls in and taks his place
      The jury gasps , the charges read
      Wee Sammy’s shagged big Senga Stead
      Big Senga’s no averse tae frolic
      But no wi’ manky alcoholic
      She hidnae e’en finished her chips
      When Sam(she said) exposed her hips
      And puushed the hardy Glasgow doll
      Against the back o’ cludgie wall….
      All sit, says Alistair Farquar-Glenn
      (all the wey from thon Bearsden)
      “Such heinous transgression is before us”
      (Whit the feck’d he say? is jury chorus)
      “The onus is on accused’s defence
      To prove there was no such offence.”
      Is he gaun tae jile the jury pondered?
      But how he’d done it they a’ wondered.
      And thus the lawyer built the case.
      Sam (he said)couldny reach that “place”
      And he was accused wrangly surely
      And Senga doll had indeed been poorly
      (Fowerteen voddies had bin the sum
      But it hidnae made her thingwy numb
      “Ah know the bam was up ma’ khyber”
      Couldny say how when pressed however
      When prosecution returned whit did entail?
      They had the proof tae hand – a pail.
      A bucket? the judge expressed surprise
      “Elucidate us please. We’re not that wise
      (Whit the feck’d he say? again is chorus)
      Put explanation clear before us”
      The lawyer “Your honour,it’s our case
      That Samuel Gow utilised this base”
      He waved the bucket, left and right
      “To climb up on it for extra height
      With Senga halfway through her chow
      She’d hardly notice Samuel Gow”
      His lordship, Alistair Farquar-Glenn
      Hid dealt wi’ hunners o’ wicked men
      And though wee Gow looked fairly hairmless
      He thoat it might indeed be careless
      Tae come tae jury judgement soon
      Wi’oot the facts been taken doon
      “This court’s adjourned” he affirmed
      Till proper measures are confirmed .
      Wee Sam and pail were taken oot
      The measures made wid leave nae doot
      And court kid come tae safe decision
      Because of sensible precision.
      When judge looked at the final scale
      He said that “even on the pail
      Gow’s genitals as I can see.
      Would hardly reach ‘bove Senga’s knee”.
      “Case dismissed” – the final say
      As polis huckled her away
      The jury (who’d been given lunch)
      Surrounded Sammy in a bunch.
      And aff they went tae Scotia bar
      Intent thaim a’tae hiv a jar.
      “We thought ye’d end up in the pokey”
      Said Sammy’s punting pal wee Jockie.
      Wee Sam confessed, tae shocked surprise.
      “Ah’m no a man fur telling lies.
      Nae trial again so here’s the fact
      The prosecution should be sacked
      Ah did and Ah’ve got away
      They didnae work oot what Ah’d dae”.
      “Two pails ye had?” said Burke O’ Hare
      “A wee ladder?” posed old Willie Mair
      “Naw,easier still” wee Sammy said
      “Ah flung the pail ower Senga’s head
      ………..And hung ontae the handle.

    74. Alex Clark says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      That’s not a poem that’s a book! LOL Have printed it out and will read tomorrow. Well done on writing it anyway.

    75. Fred says:

      Brilliant Dave, just brilliant! nae wonder Rock thinks this is developing into a cosy wee social club!

    76. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Fred –


      Rock should be made welcome here – we need him to keep the conservatory door open on these balmy Indian summer evenings…


    77. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –


      I’m looking forward to seeing that on the letters page of The National.

    78. William Wallace says:

      @ Dave MH

      Top drawer 🙂 Thoroughly enjoyed that ane. Any mair?

    79. Michael McCabe says:

      Digby Jones-Under The Sea

    80. Tinto Chiel says:

      “…analysis, which showed Scotland and the North-East of England would be worst hit by leaving the EU”.

      Another Mad Tory reason for Treeza going for her flounce out.

      Deeply concerned about Ian Brotherhood’s equation of Richard Leonard=Kenneth Williams. Stick a pair on National Healths on Tricky Dicky and I reckon he could be the new Charles Hawtrey.

      In any case, what larks when either Anas or TD gets gralloched weekly at FMQs, and all air-brushed out by BBC Shortbread.

      Tackety Beets: groovy gravatar. New? The Lord Lyon will be impressed!

    81. Tinto Chiel says:

      Oops! Wrong thread!

    82. Fred says:

      Seriously folks, Rock could be in some kind of institution?

      The Kenneth Williams lookalike is spooky, I thought that from the start!

    83. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Seriously folks, Rock could be in some kind of institution?”

      Could be, Fred but, going by the number of recent strange commenters, there’s a locked ward somewhere full of them.

      More carrot cake, Harvey?

    84. Tinto Chiel says:

      Time to blow away the cobwebs…

      That young man will go far.

    85. Tinto Chiel says:

      See if anyone can spot our own lovely Miss Paula Rose in this one.

    86. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Computer crashed. Was it that poem?

    87. Fred says:

      Well Tinto, as the stag stalking season draws to a close, the jaggy jaiket & shot-silk shite-catchers can be moth-balled for another year! Try saying shot-silk shite-catchers when sober kid?

      Was Smallaxe ghillieing for the Duke this year?

    88. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, Fred, along with “I’m not a pheasant-plucker, I’m a pheasant-plucker’s son, and I’m only pheasant plucking ’til the pheasant-plucker comes.”

      Shot-silk? I’m more of a mole-skin man myself, cut against the bias to show off the old lallies.

      Don’t think Smallaxe is quite up to it at the mo.

      Best wishes, Seer by Sark.

    89. CameronB Brodie says:

      Personally, I see Brexit as the subjugation of human liberty and dignity by far-right neo-con ideologies aligned with neo-liberal ideologies aimed at valuing human existence in purely monetary terms. Of course, the BBC played a large role in selling the whole idea to the poor and politically illiterate. As such, here’s one for the Brexiteers and all their supporters to get down to.

      “Pontius Pilate said to party.”

      Pornland – Pontius Pilate

    90. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Evening, just saw in the National some of our Tory friends producing an excellent idea.

      A new Royal Yacht paid for with private cash.

      Right folks who is up for a wee fund raiser?

      Okay….I’ll let you think it over.

    91. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For no particular reason…

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian B
      Bollocks, there’s no following that one 🙁 Superb.

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m trying to reach out in a spirit of hope. 😉

      Severus Snape – Titanium

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm. Marine & Curlinghall discoes. Ah well, my best shot

    95. Petra says:

      I rarely venture on here but I’m delighted that I did so.

      Your poem is absolutely BRILLIANT Dave and you should think of getting it published. What talent! Rabbie would be proud of you. In many ways better than Rabbie’s work in fact. Keep going. Produce more of the same. More than anything tell the story (obliterate the lies), step by step, leading on from Rabbie of our fight to get our Independence. That would be EPIC.


      Dave McEwan Hill says on 13 October, 2017 at 12:32 am.

      I heard a good joke the other day so I thought I’d make an epic poem about it.

      ”Wee Sammy Gow
      The coort is fu’, the jury’s gowpin
      The polis leads wee Sammy Gow in
      He’s four fit nine an no an inch mair
      An skelly wi’ it and no much hair
      Coorts tae rise, the polis says
      The judge swirls in and taks his place
      The jury gasps, the charges read
      Wee Sammy’s shagged big Senga Stead
      Big Senga’s no averse tae frolic
      But no wi’ manky alcoholic
      She hidnae e’en finished her chips
      When Sam (she said) exposed her hips
      And puushed the hardy Glasgow doll
      Against the back o’ cludgie wall….
      All sit, says Alistair Farquar-Glenn
      (all the wey from thon Bearsden)
      “Such heinous transgression is before us”
      (Whit the feck’d he say? is jury chorus)
      “The onus is on accused’s defence
      To prove there was no such offence.”
      Is he gaun tae jile the jury pondered?
      But how he’d done it they a’ wondered.
      And thus the lawyer built the case.
      Sam (he said) couldny reach that “place”
      And he was accused wrangly surely
      And Senga doll had indeed been poorly
      (Fowerteen voddies had bin the sum
      But it hidnae made her thingwy numb)
      “Ah know the bam was up ma’ khyber”
      Couldny say how when pressed however
      When prosecution returned whit did entail?
      They had the proof tae hand – a pail.
      A bucket? the judge expressed surprise
      “Elucidate us please. We’re not that wise
      (Whit the feck’d he say? again is chorus)
      Put explanation clear before us”
      The lawyer “Your honour, it’s our case
      That Samuel Gow utilised this base”
      He waved the bucket, left and right
      “To climb up on it for extra height
      With Senga halfway through her chow
      She’d hardly notice Samuel Gow”
      His lordship, Alistair Farquar-Glenn
      Hid dealt wi’ hunners o’ wicked men
      And though wee Gow looked fairly hairmless
      He thoat it might indeed be careless
      Tae come tae jury judgement soon
      Wi’oot the facts been taken doon
      “This court’s adjourned” he affirmed
      Till proper measures are confirmed .
      Wee Sam and pail were taken oot
      The measures made wid leave nae doot
      And court kid come tae safe decision
      Because of sensible precision.
      When judge looked at the final scale
      He said that “even on the pail
      Gow’s genitals as I can see.
      Would hardly reach ‘bove Senga’s knee”.
      “Case dismissed” – the final say
      As polis huckled her away
      The jury (who’d been given lunch)
      Surrounded Sammy in a bunch.
      And aff they went tae Scotia bar
      Intent thaim a’tae hiv a jar.
      “We thought ye’d end up in the pokey”
      Said Sammy’s punting pal wee Jockie.
      Wee Sam confessed, tae shocked surprise.
      “Ah’m no a man fur telling lies.
      Nae trial again so here’s the fact
      The prosecution should be sacked
      Ah did and Ah’ve got away
      They didnae work oot what Ah’d dae”.
      “Two pails ye had?” said Burke O’ Hare
      “A wee ladder?” posed old Willie Mair
      “Naw,easier still” wee Sammy said
      “Ah flung the pail ower Senga’s head
      ………..And hung ontae the handle.”

    96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Petra at 2.53

      Ah’d hiv tae ask big Senga first

    97. Paula Rose says:

      Tinto Chiel There is actually an uncanny likeness.

    98. Petra says:

      Aye richt enuf big Dave, better ask big Senga first
      or you cud end up wi yir mooth aw burst.

    99. Fred says:

      Cannae beat the Bucket List but!

      Auld Maw Broon went tae the toon tae get her wee dug its denner
      But a bunnet fur her heid that she didnae need cost her her last tenner,
      That puir wee dug jist scratched its lug & said “Ya daft auld bat! ah thocht it wiz a bane that ye’d bring me hame, ah cannae eat a hat!”
      An ah’m stervin!

    100. Tinto Chiel says:

      Mere celluloid can’t do you justice, Miss Rose.

    101. Tinto Chiel says:

      Mere celluloid can’t do you justice, Miss Rose, IMHO .

    102. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Looks like the post I submitted, around 9:30 to 10pm, about the event in Dundee next Sunday, has been rejected by “the system”.

      I’ll message Rev Stu tomorrow to see why.

    103. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Does anybody have any idea how you can actually contact anybody – a real person – about Google and gmail?

      My computer has crashed and I’m finding it impossible to get a new password for my gmail account to access despite going through the process 17 times,including with the assistance of computer engineers. Some are saying I have been deliberately taken down and am now being deliberately blocked.

    104. William Wallace says:

      @ DMH

      You could try their London office. Not sure if it will help but worth a shot.

      1-13 St Giles High St
      London WC2H 8LG
      United Kingdom
      Phone: +44 (0)20-7031-3000

    105. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      William Wallace

      Thanks. I’ll give it a try.

    106. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      William Wallace

      Phoned and gave it a try. Round in circles. Still haven’t been able to talk to anyone. Disgraceful service.

      I will write to them.

    107. Fred says:

      Anent Harvey Wienstein, how come the ugliest guys get aw the best burds?

    108. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 11.37
      Because the LADIES have the real men.

    109. William Wallace says:

      @ DMH

      Automation has to be the most frustrating thing imaginable when all you really need to solve the problem is a little human intervention. Been there several times and feel your pain.

      There is a help forum here.!forum/gmail

      The second post on there does not bode well for human contact on the matter.!topic/gmail/SzwFXkqLvr0

      It states:

      Most all account recovery starts with the “Forgot password?” link on the Gmail/Google sign in page. That link leads to: which can be used directly.

      There are over a dozen potential questions (like creation date) and tasks (like entering a verification code) you can use to prove ownership of an account. Most of the questions are based on pre-configured recovery options like an e-mail or phone. If these are not available (never configured, gone out-of-date, changed by a hacker) the number of questions available may be very limited making it hard to prove ownership of the account.

      The end of the process typically has you provide a contact e-mail address which is then sent a verification code to enter. Please note that you are only verifying that the contact address is valid, and that you have access to it. The verification code does NOT mean you have successfully verified ownership of the lost account. You may still receive the “Google couldn’t verify…” message or asked additional questions even after entering the verification code.

      The recovery process is more successful if done from a computer or device normally used to access the account. In fact, just one or two correct answers may be sufficient. If at all possible, attempt recovery using that same computer/device, giving preference to a computer/laptop over a mobile device.

      Fortunately, the provided process works for most people to recover their account. Some receive the message “Google couldn’t verify…” meaning that the information Google has (including the questions you answered) is not sufficient to prove your ownership of the account.

      In these cases, people often post asking what other options are available. Without trying to be overly negative, the realities are that…

      Google does not provide live support for Gmail so you can not contact Google for help with account recovery. Any support numbers found through search are probably not Google’s (unless you get Google Play or the like). These places will be happy to take your money, but they can not return your account.

      This is a user-to-user help forum, and while the volunteers can provide information and advice, they can not return your account. There are no options to provide information beyond what the recovery process asks for.

      In summary, if you can not recover the account using the provided process, it may be lost. There are no other account recovery options available.

      The linked article provides a lot more detail about the account recovery process and includes information to help pass it successfully:
      The Walk-Through and Additional Information sections may be the most helpful.

      Sorry I can’t be of more help. I know how frustrating it can be.

    110. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thanks, William. As I am using another computer (as my computer has crashed) that may be the problem.

    111. K1 says:

      Cause of his so called ‘power’ and ‘influence’ Fred…he abused it, basically ‘bought’ contact with the ‘burdz’…it is ever thus.

    112. Shinty says:

      On a rant here – You know the old saying ‘live and learn’ well today I’m effing raging to discover that the Duke of Cumberland received and honorary doctorate from Glasgow Uni. after the Battle of Culloden. WTAF.

      This together with our present day scientists getting completely shafted on their achievements by the media.

      Then I remember this, one of many which need another airing (if nothing else but to get me back on track)

    113. Cactus says:

      A merry the 17th of October to ye all Wingers.

      Back later on.

    114. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I became aware of Asperger’s Syndrome when my son was diagnosed, aged 6.

      Hans Asperger was Austrian. They speak German. Therefore, Asperger should be pronounced the same as “berg”, ie a hard G. It should not be a soft G, like the second G in “garage”.

      I am currently watching the programme by Chris Packam on BBC2 about his Asperger’s Syndrome.

      It annoyed me to hear HIM pronouncing “Asperger’s” with a soft G.

      End of rant. (An evening for rants, or Rantz, perchance?)

    115. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Shinty at 8.48

      Culloden wasn’t Scotland v England. It was Hanoverian v Stewart for the English throne and Scots and English were on both sides.

      I remain confused about the affection for the Jacobites. The Jacobite cause was unionist, trying to seize the English crown.
      If “Bonnie” Price Chairlie had stopped at the border we would be independent today.

    116. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      William Wallace at 12.27 pm

      Thanks. I have been through that process 17 times and having used the phone number you gave me for over an hour this morning I still have not spoken to a person despite trying every option that was presented. They will get a letter – but probably to no avail.

      Oddly I have just noted on my Yahoo account history that my dalinlongart gmail account and details were removed from Yahoo at precisely 5.28 AM on 13th. I suspect my computer was taken down at that point also.

    117. William Wallace says:

      @ DMH

      I’m a reasonably competent techie (when I’m not being a drunken buffoon 😉 ). Does your machine have any symptoms or is it totally dead? I might be able to offer a diagnosis (if you are unsure as to the nature of the problem) to help get you back up and running.

    118. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thanks, but it is totally dead. A Microsoft engineer (who tried the hard drive in another working computer to no effect)is away with the hard drive to see if he can retrieve all my files which represent most of my life, bloody hell (and I had backed up very little).

    119. William Wallace says:

      @ DMH

      Ouch, sair ane.

      I got into the habit o backing stuff up to a wee external hard drive aboot a decade or so ago after suffering a similar fate for the second time. It’s a massive PITA when it happens and data recovery back then was extremely expensive (Still is relatively expensive even now).

      I usually export browser data/passwords/bookmarks etc, documents folder and desktop folder at least once a week to be on the safe side.

      I know it’s shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted but, you can pick up fairly large capacity pen drives these days for peanuts to prevent future occurrences (Less than a tenner for 32gb). You can also get various open source and freeware auto_backup apps that will let you specify source and destination folders and do the job for you to save you any future headaches.

    120. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Got some stuff on my stick (a novel and half another one) and the really important thing – the minutes of the last Holy Loch SNP Branch meeting!

    121. William Wallace says:

      I think the novels are far mair important tbh :). You could always ask abody in attendance at the branch meeting to try and mind what was said. Assuming the meeting wasnae held in the boozer ofc.

      Luckily, in terms of data recovery the actual file sizes will be small. Were they on an SSD or an old style sata/ide?

      Let me know what you are getting quoted on recovery for the critical stuff to be recovered. An old pal of mine is in that game and will probably do it for a pint or two.

    122. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      So what’s the doo in Douglas on the 22nd? Might just go along been a while since visiting Tody land 🙂

    123. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      That’s weird.

      Saw that post here you just made and when I responded, your post and mine went awol. Posted on MT with the details.

    124. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      By the way both my sister and my old man lived in Douglas for quite a few years. I’d moved to the Ferry by then though.

      We’re Kirkton people at heart as that was where I first had a hoose with an inside toilet 🙂 Even a gerden lol.

    125. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      Oot o interest here.

      Did You ken Dave Nugent. Derwent Legend 😉

    126. Cactus says:

      Good morning, morning.

      Rising vibrations… could all be coming tae a heid… catalystics.

      Aye aye Jock Scot, we all need tae get ourselves back tae the Quay bro.

      The BBC appears to hate thy neighbours.

      13 days to go till spooky night.

      Off topic is always on topic.

    127. Cactus says:

      Here’s another Richard Leonard voiceover…

      Boring Auld Theresa:

    128. Cactus says:

      Atic Atac ~ The ACG key…

      “The object of Atic Atac is very simple. All you have to do is escape from the castle. … To escape from the castle, you must discover the Golden Key of ACG – ACG stands for Ashby Computer Graphics, the …”

      Did ye know that.. well ye do now.

    129. Cactus says:

      Will you be a serf, a knight or a wizard?

      Let’s escape Castle Westminster.

      1984 knows.

    130. Cactus says:

      Have a wicked wiki-wiki Wednesday fine People of Scotland ~

      Same goes to you People of Different Time Zones ~

      Good night, night.

      OT out.

    131. Chick McGregor says:

      For those who are interested in the gravitational wave discovery (Petra) and unlike the MSM, an account which acknowledges Glasgow University’s contribution, here is a link to the Physics World article (may need to sign up for it, I can’t remember I’ve been getting it by email for many years).

    132. Cactus says:

      Good evening, evening.

      Aweright Chris n Greg ~

      Cheers for the dudes and the goodies.

      Lovin’ the hardback, VOL 1 next.

      With Compliments,
      Fae me.

    133. Cactus says:

      Think ah’ll hang about here this evening. Ah’ll play catch up later. Though sporadic postings are always a potential possible.

      Whit’s the blether of the weather..?

      Tis not even nine.

      On the oor.

    134. Cactus says:

      Here we go…

      Let’s be Free:

      Wishin’ ye well Smallaxe bro x.

      Know your elements.

    135. Cactus says:


      Not on this clock.

      But, what a RUSH:

      Geddy fuckin’ Lee!

    136. Paula Rose says:

      What’s this Douglas thing of which I keep hearing but see nothing of?

    137. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Jeez Paula Rose.

      You are, unusually, behind the loop, uryi no? This link has cbeen posted on WOS in the past few days.

    138. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Jeez Paula Rose.

      You are, unusually, behind the loop, uryi no? This link has cbeen posted on WOS in the past few days.

    139. Cactus says:

      Hey Paula Rose & Brian Doonthetoon ~

      Lookin’ forward tae seeing yee’s on the 11th.

      “Words of Love…” ~ MamasnPapas.

      For the Love of Ivy WoS!

      Words of WoS.

      OSAWD. CD.

    140. Cactus says:

      Ah’ve had to put my bottle of red tinto into my fish tank for natural warming up temperature purposes. Tis Pinot Noir of le soir (aka of ra night).

      Ma fish look totally perplexed, completely baffled, very puzzled.

      “Every other day…”

      Cheers n here’s to being a European Citizen of the world..

      Glasgow’s Much Better 😉

    141. Paula Rose says:

      None the wiser – back to the day job.

    142. Cactus says:

      Is he got the marine or the tropical..?

      Keep it warm.

      But salt it.

    143. Cactus says:

      Aye can hear FIREWORKS all around.

      Can youuuuu…

      Tell me darlings..

    144. Cactus says:


      “Stars shining…”

      The darkest hour is just before dawn.

      All of the thirteen stars above.

      Keep shootin’ straight you!

      If ye know whit I mean.


    145. Cactus says:

      The New Zealand Pinot Noir is very good.

      Perfect temperaturenessity.

      We are in a good place.

      We are happy.


    146. Cactus says:


      “Cheers n here’s to being a European Citizen of the world..”

      Cheers n here’s to being a European Citizen of this world..

      ONE. EH. EHM.

    147. Cactus says:

      There always is midnight.

      Good morning..


    148. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s the fifth time I played that.

      Oh well, there’s always Number Six.

    149. Cactus says:

      Cheers tae ye yesindyref2 ~

      Independence soon.

      This one knows.

      You knows.

      I knows.

      🙂 🙂 😉

    150. Cactus says:


      🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 😉

      That’s a work of art, that is.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      😉         😉
        😉     😉
          😉 😉
          😉 😉
        😉     😉
      😉         😉


      wonder if that’ll work …

    152. Cactus says:


    153. Cactus says:

      Yours is a keeper.


    154. yesindyref2 says:

      Cactus, I used a non-breaking space between spaces and the smilie, as in
      & n b s p ;
      remove the spaces between and you get

      Don’t tell Rev I told you, or I’ll be for the hammer     🙁

    155. Cactus says:


      “For so long as there shall but one hundred of us remain alive we will never give consent to subject ourselves to the dominion of the English. For it is not glory, it is not riches, neither is it honours, but it is liberty alone that we fight and contend for, which no honest man will lose but with his life.”


      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

      😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉 🙂

      Any questions?

    156. Fred says:

      Ah find Pinot Noir a bit Meh & wattery! Cannae see past Aldi’s Toro Loco at present, £1 extra for the Reserve!

      Bests tae Smallaxe!

    157. Cactus says:

      Good evening, evening Fred ~ aye PN does have a light see thru texture.

      Aye ah’ve sampled Aldi’s Toro Loco too. That’s the one with the bull horns on a green label. Ah’ve seen two versions, one is organic and one is not.

      Beware… not all organic wines are free from sulphites! Some contain.

      Nonethemore, being barefoot works for me.


      Cheers all 🙂

    158. Fred says:

      Aye Cactus, not impressed with the Green Label Organic, the Black Label Reserve is worth the extra quid & the White Label’s my usual. There’s a Rose also but nae idea what that’s like?.

      Slainte’ Kid!

    159. Cactus says:

      Cheers Fred ~ I like a recommendation, ah’ll give em a go.

      “Hey El Torro Loco!”

      Slidey Friday.

    160. Michael McCabe says:

      Smallaxe Sorry I have not replyed to that email yet. anyway you are in my thoughts and you are Missed. if you still tune in now and again here is an album you might like or not. Take care my Friend. Peace Always,

    161. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      One hundred ye say?
      Ahm sure Ya ken the crack
      Not this rabble wiz it? 🙂
      The Infamous Caesar!nnach


      Or wiz it the chosen few
      @ a Scottish bar b que ?
      Eh love meh fkin Scotland
      and eh love ah o youz! 🙂

    162. William Wallace says:

      London had Ronnie and Reg but, we had Ronnie and Roy.

    163. William Wallace says:

      Anybody needing a bed fir the 11th?

      Even if eh dinnae mak it (eh’m hoping eh will, 90% the now) does anybody need a place to get their heid doon?

      Will ask meh femily and friends tae pit yiz up. Thir ah pro Indy onywey so it’s nae bather.

    164. William Wallace says:

      @ YIR2

      Didnae mean it in a creepy wey. 🙂

      Was just offering in case it ends up wi quite a few fowk coming fae further afield that will be having a drink that night and cannae drive back. Eh’ll assume provisions have already been made in that regard.

    165. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      That’s a very kind offer mister, ta muchly.


    166. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Stumbled across this earlier, never saw it before. Powerful stuff, esp in interview at 3.50ish:

      Elvis Costello, ‘Tramp The Dirt Down’ –

    167. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, wasn’t aimed at you or anyone, just a random play with Hallowe’en coming up and all that goolie stuff.

      @Slip you a Mickey Fallon
      Here’s one for you bud:

    168. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s one for the Tory ref who hates the travellers.

      The Pecker Dunne, ‘McAlpine’s Fusiliers’

    169. Cactus says:

      Left right, ma socks are comin’ off.


      It’s a sock off!

    170. Cactus says:

      iScotland never sleeps… haudin’ it here, a wee hauf?

    171. Alex Clark says:

      @Paula Rose

      Haha that brought a smile to my face. Take this!

    172. Cactus says:

      IT. IS. GOOD. TO. BE. ALIVE.



      I am one Person of iScotland ~

      It’s a beautiful day.

      So are you.

      Off topic is ALWAYS on.

    173. Az says:

      Yes! I found it. I found it long ago, but then couldnae navigate here, so ah tried a wee URL jobby n here am ur 😉 woop woop

    174. Cactus says:

      Numbers next…

      Letters later..

      One remains barefoot.

      One is entering back un and in to the realms of the unknown.

      Friday night / Saturday morn.

      Good luck.


    175. Az says:

      Uft! Tell ye what Cactus, I’d love a hauf the noo. Too late to pub the night to get a proper swally in, but luckily they hud a Fallen Brewery “Chew Chew” which is a bold 6%, so two o’ them and a Chivas Regal [Pais-a-lee – AYE] to send me oan ma merry wye…

      Tell ye what though, those wee bams ah saw fightin the night! Haha daft wee boys. Cops were there in less than a minute… But y’know, we all know oor polis are awright 😉 and so they ur

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, a wee kip, spruced up my main business website ressizing and optimising images an text an that, staying away from news! Time for a cuppa and some recorded TV something (Librarians probably), but first for something completely different …

      Lyrics a bit tricky all the same.

    177. Az says:

      Lovin’ the top quality Scottish products. Right fae the hert a Scotland. Tha auld Kippen railway station in Stirlingshire. These folk are makin’ summa the finest beer anywhere in these islands. Just wish they’d change their web address tae a .com or a .scot….

    178. Cactus says:

      Guest whisky they call it say, eh, aye so, ehhhhh, it’s been SO much fun as ever.

      Will check out the damage carnage later on today.

      We will know before December ’17.

      Good night, morning.

      Be off-topic…

    179. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is possibly the funniest thing I’ve ever seen.

      It’s epically stupid and ridiculous but…

      Just watch it…

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      As he wrote in “The Wealth of Nations” – “What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable.”

      Smith recognised that the major choices we make in economic policy aren’t about what sort of economy we want to create, they are about what sort of society we want to live in. – First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

      Economic Lives: How Culture Shapes the Economy
      Economic Lives shows how shared cultural understandings and interpersonal relations shape everyday economic activities. Far from being simple responses to narrow individual incentives and preferences, economic actions emerge, persist, and are transformed by our relations to others. Distilling three decades of research, the book offers a distinctive vision of economic activity that brings out the hidden meanings and social actions behind the supposedly impersonal worlds of production, consumption, and asset transfer. Economic Lives ranges broadly from life insurance marketing, corporate ethics, household budgets, and migrant remittances to caring labor, workplace romance, baby markets, and payments for sex. These examples demonstrate an alternative approach to explaining how we manage economic activity–as well as a different way of understanding why conventional economic theory has proved incapable of predicting or responding to recent economic crises.

      The Uses of Value

      Zelizer’s Theory of Money and the Case of Local Currencies

    181. CameronB Brodie says:

      Inclusiveness is boss.

      Evidence for the added value of an inclusive societies approach

      3. The added value of an inclusive societies approach
      It has been noted that it is often easier to find literature
      that demonstrates the cost of exclusion rather than the benefits of inclusion (Valenti and Giovannoni, 2012). However, Club de Madridresearch (2011, 2012) notes that shared societies3 enjoy better prospects for both material and non-material wellbeing and that material gains can be better applied in a socially and environmentally sustainable way in such societies. They comment that without shared societies,the probability of conflict, marginalisation and disillusionment is high, and that citizens are more likely to opt out of the democratic political process (Club de Madrid, 2012).

      The consequences of failing to include sections of society are significant in the long run, contributing to increased insecurity, higher crime rates, brain drain, emigration, social conflict, expansion of slums, instability, urban violence, divided societies and violent conflict, etc. (UNDESA, 2009). Commenting on poverty reduction efforts, the UN asserts, ‘it is evident that we will not be able to eradicate poverty if we continue to exclude those who are vulnerable and disadvantaged. As long as we fail to address the root causes of poverty and exclusion, some segments of the population will continue to be left out of the benefits gained by society as a whole’ (UNDESA, 2009:18)

      Social Exclusion/Inclusion: Foucault’s analytics of exclusion, the political ecology of social inclusion and the legitimation of inclusive education

      Inclusive Education and Educational Theory: Inclusive for What?

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Inclusiveness has the attraction for, and support of, the wider international community.

      Social Development for Sustainable Development

      Transforming our world: the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development

      The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development was adopted at the United Nations Summit in New York from 25 to 27 September 2015. The Agenda is a broad and universal policy agenda, with 17 Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), with 169 associated targets which are integrated and indivisible. Building on the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), the 2030 Agenda seeks to guide Member States to transform their approach to achieve inclusive, people-centred and sustainable development with no one left behind.

      Five Approaches to Social Sustainability and
      an Integrated Way Forward

      Creating an Inclusive Society: Practical Strategies to Promote Social Integration

    183. William Wallace says:

      Give me back my whisky 🙂

      From his “Hell No I ain’t happy” gig. He switches from stand up to Otis Lee Crenshaw and band about 42 minutes in.

      One of my all time favourite comedy gigs and worthy of sharing for those that have not seen it and need a good laugh.

    184. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Tom Gallagher
      You might want to acknowledge the century we’re living in dude.

      The power to decide Women, decision-making and gender equality

      Towards better support to women’s political power and leadership
      There is international momentum around improving the lives of women and girls. Reducing gender inequalities has high-level political support in several bilateral and multilateral agencies. The newly agreed 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development includes a specific target on women’s full and effective participation in leadership at all levels of decision-making. The anniversaries of the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing (1995)
      and UN Security Resolution 1325 on Women, Peace and Security (2000) provide political opportunities to push the agenda on women’s political power and leadership. Our assessment of the evidence suggests five ways international agencies might do this….

      Women and Men, Morality and Ethics

      Feminism and rational choice theory

    185. Cactus says:

      Ye nailed it oor William ~

      Saw him live in Edin.

      Ahm ah big fan.

      Wee hauf…?



    186. William Wallace says:

      Well eh Cactus until ya rubbered iz in the main thread ya fker 😉

      Did a good radio hand aff through the night in poetic format an athin and you never took up the mantle 🙂

      Love ya!!

    187. Cactus says:

      Ditto Double Dubya ~

      Off is ON.


    188. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Lack of input from me over pasr three days due to MacPro dying. Now working from reserve iMac.


      Time to reprise to reinvigorate. First of all, from T in The Park 2015, the youth of Scotland, at NOT a Pro-indy rally, merely a mainstream festival.

      And then, the signature tune of Dundee’s Team YES Bus…

    189. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Lack of input from me over past three days due to MacPro dying. Now working from reserve iMac.


      Time to reprise to reinvigorate. First of all, from T in The Park 2015, the youth of Scotland, at NOT a Pro-indy rally, merely a mainstream festival.

      And then, the signature tune of Dundee’s Team YES Bus…

    190. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      No idea why double post occurred. Usualy the WordPress system stops duplicate posts. After all it warns you, iye? Sends posts into the ether sometimes and other times repeats.

      Who has the answer? Is there an answer?

    191. Cactus says:

      That was FUN 🙂



    192. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the relationship between liberal democracy and popular sovereignty.


      This paper critically explores Carl Schmitt’s theory of democracy. I present the emergence of the democratic principle of legitimacy as described by Schmitt, then elaborate on the people as sovereign qua constituent power and present its threefold relationship with the constitution. Later I formulate three lessons to be taken from Schmitt’s theory and discuss its importance and implications for democratic theory in terms of the normative and formative principle of democracy, core subject and core mode of democratic politics, and conditions of possibility of constituent democratic politics. In concluding part I discuss the differences between liberal, republican and deliberative model of democracy and Schmitt-inspired theory.

      The Time of Popular Sovereignty

      Does democracy need sovereignty?

      Abstract. Non-state entities that aspire to statehood are increasingly developing democratic norms and practices, in part to enhance their claims for independence. However, the prospects for democracy in cases of ‘problematic sovereignty’ are little understood. This article seeks to explore the important but under-explored relationship between sovereignty and democracy, and in particular to assess the extent to which sovereignty is, or is not, a prerequisite for democracy. The article advances two arguments. First, it argues that there is no clear-cut relationship between sovereignty and democracy, as sovereignty is a complex concept that is comprised of several important, and distinct, constituent elements. Second, the article argues that the legal recognition of statehood (international legal sovereignty) is of marginal importance in this area, and should not be seen as a necessary condition for democratic rule. The article examines the process of democratic transition in the non-state entity of Somaliland to provide empirical support.

      Democracy without statehood: adapting the declaratory/constitutive debate
      ….However, the article does not advance the argument that sovereignty is unimportant for democracy, or that democracy can easily flourish in contexts of problematic sovereignty. On the contrary, while international recognition may not be a requisite for democratic rule, its absence may be an indicator of other more challenging sovereignty-related issues. Domestic autonomy and freedom from external intervention represent aspects of sovereignty that are fundamentally important for democracy, and their absence represents a much more serious impediment to democratic rule. The closer a political entity resembles a fully sovereign state, the greater the prospects for democracy. But lack of international recognition alone is no barrier to democratic progress.

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Joseph Stiglitz’s record on Venezuela. The man’s an economist not a social theorist.


      This dissertation investigates the role of media in political conflict during President Hugo Chávez’s administration (1999-2013). This conflict is understood as antagonism where the political opponent is seen as an enemy instead of a more equal adversary. In Venezuela, private media were powerful economic and political actors before Chávez’s era due to clientelistic tradition. President Chávez questioned the neoliberal measures taken by previous governments and started to apply his politics of the “socialism of 21st century” in a manner that shaped his government’s media policies. Several private media outlets disagreed with his drastic measures and took them as an attack. Confrontation developed between the private media and state media sectors….

      Who believes in conspiracy theories in Venezuela?

      Abstract: Conspiracy theories are central to political discourse in Venzuela and are widely supported. In the AmericasBarometer Venezuela survey from 2016-2017, 57% of respondents expressed agreement for at least one of three political conspiracy narratives unsupported by evidence. Political loyalties to Chavismo or to the anti-Chavista opposition drive much conspiracy theory belief, but not all. Politically motivated reasoning pushes citizens toward some conspiracy narratives but away from others. Other factors that are distinct from political loyalties, including low education levels and predispositions toward Manicheanism and fatalism, are associated with conspiracism in general. This paper presents new data on conspiracy theory belief in Venezuela as well as analysis of its individual-level correlates, then discusses how the current Venezuelan political environment fosters conspiracy and what changes might mitigate this phenomenon.

      Portraying the Venezuela Conflict: From Partial to Full Conflict Theory

      Anyone who writes on Venezuela’s polarized politics knows there is no position above the fray. Pro-government commentators become targets for the clever insults of anti-government activists; and anti-government commentators become targets for ad hominem attacks of pro-government activists. This is to be expected in any acute political battle.

      In this essay, I argue that the guiding social theories most commentators use to understand Venezuela only partially capture the Venezuela conflict. Most political commentary on Venezuela comes from partial conflict theories that critically examine some areas of social life but systematically ignore others. I put forward a neo-Weberian alternative, a full conflict theory more suitable for understanding contemporary Venezuela.

    194. Chick McGregor says:

      OK, here is a very brief (it won’t seem like it) overview of the cultural model I eventually constructed for myself about 20 years ago. It itself took around 20 years of thinking and study before I finalized it but it has pretty much stood the test of time – for me at least.

      It has even proffered me a new perspective on the underlying paradigm shifts which drive the more visible but otherwise often seemingly scatological events of history.

      Being a scientist by nature it is pretty much classification based although I know that approach annoys many people who prefer gray scales and indeed there are instances where classification can be challenged or where qualification for multiple classification is justifiable.

      So to the over all structure. It is a four layered one, consisting of Primary, Secondary, Tertiary and Quaternary layers.

      Firstly, let me quickly go through each layer giving a very brief description of what each entails.

      Primary Layer
      This could be called the Belief Layer.

      The Primary Layer is a fundamental, philosophical layer which underpins cultural identity but does not specifically define that which might be considered a specific national cultural identity.

      It can, and usually is, pan-national in nature, common to several national cultural identities.

      The pan-national cultural identities involved usually, but not always, tend to be geographically contiguous.

      As the primary layer it does, though, have great influence on the elements which constitute those Secondary, National Cultural Layers, both in what they consist of and even in regard to their general priority ordering.

      It is fundamental and primary because it concerns matters which are imponderable, those culturally and philosophically important questions the answers too which are simply not amenable to a rational resolution for lack of self-evidently true premises.

      Things which really are just a matter of belief.

      As an example, consider the dichotomy between Predetermination and Free Will, neither concept being provable at all, but whichever is believed, has enormous repercussions on what meaning might be attributed to sentient life and concepts of moral responsibility for the believer concerned.

      I think that example is one of the most important unanswerables of physics or philosophy and the one with most ramifications on cultural outlook.

      Some other important imponderable questions are, Is there a purpose to the Universe? Does life play a part if there is? Is there such a thing as retribution, divine or otherwise? Are concepts of good and evil just constructs of humanity or are they related to some unknown universal law?

      Of course, many of these questions have been addressed historically by religious thinkers but most are not at all necessarily of a theological nature. In fact the theological branch of philosophy, while it has sometimes brought light to bear on them, just as often brings heat, confusion and muddled thinking usually, for extra obscurity, covered by a thick, cracked, varnish of religious dogma.

      But even those of us who consider ourselves atheist, are in fact ‘believers’ to the extent that we will, albeit subconsciously, have made a decision as to what to believe from that melange of mysteries and usually, though not always, in line with the prevalent belief in our pan-cultural area. Even where we do not believe the generally held belief, we are still aware of what that is i.e. whether our own belief is out of whack or not.

      For example. In the modern Western pan-cultural area most folk believe they have Free Will, that the decisions they make can change the future, they can make a difference things are not predetermined.

      Of course, even within the modern Western pan-national/cultural area there are still remnants of predestination (predetermination by God) believers, not least here in Scotland where there are still enclaves of extreme Calvanism. Nothing wrong with that but definitely not the general zeitgeist.

      Anyway that should be enough for a gist of the Primary Layer.

      Secondary Layer
      This could be called the National Layer

      Sorry guys going to have to stop there, this is taking longer than I thought.

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think I see where you were going Chick, though I’d have thought it near impossible to summaries in a couple of paragraphs. Good try though. 🙂

      Culture in Classical Social Theory

    196. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone good at lip-reading may enjoy having a swatch at this – JJ Burnel at 1.28ish…

      The Stranglers, ‘No More Heroes’ –

    197. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      For example…
      Today’s incident in Nuneaton. It was described as “not a terrorist incident”.

      terror |?ter?r|
      1 extreme fear : people fled in terror

      So, a guy holds hostages in a bowling alley, wielding a sawn-off shotgun. I think that if I was facing the barrels of a sawn-off shotgun, I would feel extreme fear.

      I have to ask: what is the media’s specification for a “terrorist incident”? Is it not a terrorist incident if the gunman is white and English or has personal issues?

    198. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Okay, no takers…

      Well, how about this?

      Daft Punk, ‘Lose Yourself To Dance’ –

    199. Alex Clark says:

      Class Ian, I’m bias I know but the music of the late 70’s for me was defining. I suppose the same is true for those brought up on 60’s or 80’s music and I’m sure it was.

      There’s not much that comes out now though that I can say I like much, must be an age thing lol.

      Another I played before this time early 70’s but an original and a classic just the same even though it’s the opposite of the hard hitting punk of the Stranglers.

      You really don’t get more original than this, so I salute him.

    200. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex –

      Aye, Leo – brilliant songwriter and performer.

      NME had a front-page, after that song became a hit, saying ‘Is This The New Bowie?’.

      Agreeing to appear on Big Brother didny dae him any favours at all but hey, mibbe he needed the dosh.

      Braw memories all the same, and good luck to the man.

    201. Alex Clark says:

      Idea! Tonights theme is “clowns” LOL

      Here’s another band with a clown in the lineup. Old Grey Whistle Test.

    202. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex –

      Someone will put up Boris on the zipwire eventually…

      Until then, here’s Bowie doing ‘Ashes To Ashes’ –

    203. Alex Clark says:


      Glad you played that as it brought back memories. I went to see Bowie at the Appolo in 1976. We got a pass out from work at dinnertime and started drinking on the train to Glasgow from Dundee.

      The concert didn’t start until 8 O’Clock and we were in a wee pub right next door, I was 17 and steaming by this time LOL.

      I spilled a whole pint off the table and the barman handed me a bucket and mop. I wiped the floor of that pub before we could get away for the concert 🙂

      Looking now for another clown video lol

    204. Alex Clark says:

      A nice slow song but different from what you might think and it has clowns LOL.

    205. David says:

      Ever get the feeling that Scotland isn’t really part of the UK?
      That the rest of the UK is holding us back? That Scotland is dancing to the beat of a different drum?

      Yup, me too! 🙂

    206. Alex Clark says:

      This isnae bad for a clown 🙂

    207. Nana says:

      To all who have asked after Smallaxe.

      He will not be back with us on Wings. He is as you all know very unwell and has decided to spend quality time with his family and close friends.

      He wanted me to tell you how much he has enjoyed his conversations on Wings and playing his much loved music.

      He requested this track be played

      PS He is fighting on determined to meet up on Independence day.

    208. Chick McGregor says:

      Of course Nana, we understand. 🙁
      Best wishes to one of the best.

    209. Macart says:



      If you are still in contact, let Smallaxe know we’re thinking of him.

    210. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thanks, Nana.

      Will miss all our daft chats, Smallaxe.

      All the best, my friend.

    211. Fred says:

      Sad Smallaxe tidings, a bit loast fur words!

    212. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. ‘the collective emigration of a diseased and damaged part of the population, to the relief of the rest of the population’, reported in 1851 by the Scotsman newspaper.

      I’d suggest this is typical of “Degenerationist” thought that underpinned the social Darwinist outlook and informed eugenics and the Tory party’s philosophy of inequality .

      Post Darwin: social Darwinism, degeneration, eugenics
      Dr Carolyn Burdett explores how Victorian thinkers used Darwin’s theory of evolution in forming their own social, economic and racial theories, thereby extending Darwin’s influence far beyond its original sphere.

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      Degenerationist thought has had a profound role in shaping contemporary Britain and is the root of blood-and-soil nationalism, IMHO.

      Degeneration theory

      Degeneration theory was a widely influential concept in the borderlands of social and biological science in the 19th century.[1][2][3] Degenerationists feared that civilization might be in decline and that the causes of decline lay in biological change. These ideas derived from pre-scientific concepts of heredity with Lamarckian emphasis on biological development through purpose and habit. Degeneration concepts were often associated with authoritarian political attitudes, including nationalism, militarism, and racial science. The theory originated inracial concepts ofethnicity, as recorded in the writings of such medical scientists as Johann Blumenbach and Robert Knox. From the 1850s, it became influential in psychiatry through the writings of BénédictMorel, and in criminology with Cesare Lombroso. By the 1890s, in the work of Max Nordau and others, degeneration became a more general concept in social commentary.

      After the Great War: Nationalism, Degenerationism and Mass Psychology

      This article explores the influence of psychological language and discourses on the contemporary view of nationalism, an issue that has only begun to be studied in recent years (García-García, 2013; Sluga, 2006). On this occasion, the author focuses on two currents or schools that contributed decisively to the new view of nationalism after the Great War: first, degenerationist medicine and psychiatry, highly accepted in the European social and political debate since the late 19th century; second, and no less penetrating, the crowd or mass psychology of Taine, Tarde, Sighele, and, above all, Gustave Le Bon. After the Great War, as we shall see, nationalism was often represented as a form of degeneration, or a barbarous and cruel regression to a prior stage of development, embodied by the masses. This discourse and rhetoric was to condition the area of study for generations. In fact, the voices of medicine, psychiatry and mass psychology have not disappeared from the debate and continue to directly and indirectly influence the academic and popular comprehension of nationalism.

      Liberalism, Nationalism, and Degeneration: The Case of Max Nordau
      ….Scant traces are all that are left of his fame. As a critic of late nineteenth-century culture, he is remembered only for his book Degeneration (Entartung). A polemical hailstorm unleashed on modernist culture, it is read today mainly as an example of how completely important cultural trends were once misjudged. Even in its own time the book was received vociferously, but with little permanent effect.1 Primarily, and from his own point of view somewhat disappointingly, Nordau is remembered as a figure of secondary importance in the early Zionist movement. After the Second World War he became a source of inspiration for what is known as Reconstructionist Judaism. Reconstructionism views Jewish “peoplehood or nationhood” rather than religion as the central aspect of Judaism. It is based on a faith in rationality and a belief that “nothing is so dangerous as emotion, unchecked, undirected, undisciplined.”2

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      All the best Smallaxe.

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s one for “These Islands” theme song

    216. Liz g says:

      All my love to Smallaxes and thinking of the both of you.
      Keep on dreaming my very dear friend….
      You are an inspiration to us all.XXXX

    217. Nana says:

      @ Chic, Macart, Tinto & Fred

      Sorry for not replying sooner, been a hectic day. Son moving into his flat tomorrow so of course there has been the last minute washing, ironing mountain to climb!

      I know Smallaxe is thinking of his pals here on Wings, the banter with the ‘manky mates’ will be missed I am sure.

      Best thing we can all do is keep on with the fight for independence and play the odd tune to lift the spirits and most of all keep the banter going.

      Peace always Smallaxe

    218. Alex Clark says:

      Hey Smallaxe

      I’m sorry to hear that you might not be posting again. Just let me say though that your time on here was illuminating 🙂

      That tune Nana played for you nearly had me greeting!

      Anyway, I’m so glad we met, you fair cheered me up and I came to visit to cheer you up lol. Here’s a wee song from me, my wife and the dugs for you both.

      Peace Always

    219. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Josh Simons
      You’d better bring everything you’ve got. Mind now, Scotland and England are not ‘One Nation’.

      Chapter 2. Nation-Building And Social Integration Theory
      ….In the mid-1970s, discussions on nation-building took a new turn. In a seminal article pointedly titled “Nation-building or Nation-destroying?” Walker Connor launched a blistering attack on the school of thought associated with Karl Deutsch and his students.[4] Connor noted that the nation-building literature was preoccupied with social cleavages of various kinds–between burghers and peasants, nobles and commoners, elites and masses–but virtually or totally ignored ethnic diversity. This Connor regarded as an inexcusable sin of omission, since, according to his computation, only 9 percent of the states of the world could be regarded as ethnically homogeneous.

      Since “nation-building” in the Deutschian tradition meant assimila­tion into the larger society and the eradication of ethnic pecu­liarities, Connor believed that in world history it had produced more nation-destroying than nation-building. However, the effi­ciency of active engineering in nation-building, he held, had generally been greatly exaggerated. Very often it was counter­productive, regularly producing a backlash of ethnic revival­ism. Complete assimilation of ethnic minorities had largely failed all over the world, even in that alleged stronghold of consum­mate nation-building, Western Europe, Connor maintained.

      Conflict Management in Plural Societies: The Consociational Democracy Formula

      Minorities and Representation in a Plural Society: The Case of the Christians of Pakistan


      Human rights groups have documented the plight of Pakistan’s religious minorities for years, but it is only recently that these minorities have become the focus of academic political science discourse. This discourse, however, borrows from a well-developed liberal literature on Pakistan’s democratic instability that makes assumptions about the inclusiveness of democratic regimes and exclusivism of dictatorships—most notably that of General Zia-ul-Haq. On close scrutiny, these assumptions do not hold. In this paper, I evaluate the political capacities of minorities through an institutionalised assessment of the quantity and quality of minorities’ voices in an electoral–legislative framework. Such a model, in the context of a plural society, is more likely to better reflect the capacity of a minority’s ability to withstand the tyranny of the majority, and assess the potential for its integration into the political mainstream. Towards this end, I analyse the demography–representation correlates of the Christian minority in Pakistan’s federal legislatures since Independence in 1947. I argue that the institutionalised Christian presence has often been sub-proportionate, lacking in authority and leverage, and tokenistic. Finally, I suggest remedial measures to improve the efficacy of minority representation and political empowerment by adapting certain voting paradigms suggested by Lani Guinier.

    220. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Josh Simons
      Would you not agree that British pluralism is best represented by Scotland being forced to leave the EU because of English political agency.

      Collective Memory, Identity, and Cultural Fronts in Struggles for Equality
      ….The social movements of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s sparked a powerful transformation in the consciousness of subjugated peoples. African Americans, women, gays and lesbians, Native Americans, Chicanos, and other marginalized groups transformed their communities into forceful political presences, but also inspired a desire for identity-based history. Movement participants found that their new consciousness led to a call for social and political equality, but it also generated a demand for cultural representation and a longing for a rich sense of collective struggles and successes, both present and past.

    221. Tinto Chiel says:

      Got a strange emergency ironing order droned through to me from some woman called Nana nan Oran. While giving it the full Turbo Max Steamer treatment I flicked on Pravdasound4 (I like to keep up with their schtick) to aid concentration.

      It was a programme called Costing The Earth and at first I was intrigued because the Scottish (and Norwegian) salmon industry was being mentioned positively. My domestic supervisor (hem, hem) asked me immediately, “Why are they bigging us up? This doesn’t sound right”

      And why indeed, Poindexter?

      Turns out there is a move to produce luxury-market fish like salmon in mega-tanks on land without the need to grow them in sea water. And, as the programme made clear, these vast tanks could be sited in London to take advantage of increasing world protein demand.

      By the end, I felt the programme was a strange mix of crowing at the possible demise of one of our most lucrative exports and “Resistance if futile, Sweaties: genuflect to Londinium.”

      Am I paranoid?

      Worried, Lanarkshire.

    222. Nana says:

      @Worried in Lanarkshire

      Did anyone say it was ok for you to take a break from pressing engagements?

      So let’s see if I have the gist of your latest out of mind experience. Luxury fish to be grown in mega tanks on land instead of sea and all this to be based in London you say. My my how the stink tanks must be working overtime to come up with such a cunning plan. Smells very fishy I must say.

      Now Tinto get your turbo fired up, I have another pile on the way. Keep looking skyward for the next drop.

      PS you may take a break occasionally if the supervisor considers your work up to scratch!

    223. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, Nana, sorry Nana, I’ll run it past Big Boss.

      Actually, they send all fish waste to a hydroponics unit and use it to grow veg, if I heard correctly (there was a lot of steam generation going on).

      Never seen so many heliotrope silk shirts in my life. Yon Norman must be a style icon.

      I’ll be steaming all night, the night.


      Watch the skies! Watch the skies!

    224. Nana says:

      @ Worried in Lanarkshire

      Him indoors a style icon, well I’ve heard him called many things but style icon is definitely not one of them but hey thanks for the laugh out loud moment.
      Did I mention he’s now a retired man aboot the hoose. One of us may be requiring medical assistance quite soon.

      Steaming, will that be steaming from whatever beverage you are partaking of or are you getting hot and bothered over the ironing board? Fishy tales I’m thinking.
      Honestly some folk carping on about tackling a small pile of ironing, you would think the poor old soul was floundering in some way.

      Now hurry up and get your skate[s] on and stop angling for sympathy.

      A lady of leisure

    225. Tinto Chiel says:

      Dear LoL: lol. So many fish puns, there’s a whole pun o’ fish.

      I worry for that poor man in his retirement. A kindred spirit, I suspect.

      A saint I’ve heard…


    226. Nana says:

      A saint indeed.

      I can’t wait to launch his coracle off Port Tomahawk

      Hope he brings home some fash[ion]

    227. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Heads up, peeps.

      We’re all aware of the get-together organised by Alex in Jolly’s on 11th November. Here’s something else the same day. The quote below is from Bob Costello’s blog at:-
      (Bob is our leader in Team YES Bus.)

      It is with much regret and sadness that I have discovered that Jeff Duncan passed away on his beloved Island of Sanday in July of this year. He had asked that his passing was not to be widely publicised.
      Jeff was one of the unsung heroes of the independence movement. There is to be a remembrance, in the Black Watch club Artherstone Terrace Dundee on the 11 November at 12 o’clock midday until three in the afternoon the occasion will be led by Alex Salmond. There will be refreshments and the bar will be open
      Allan Hendry & Anne McMillan who were great friends of Jeffs’ are organising the event and I am hoping that many independence supporters will attend.
      Jeff was a Dundee lad, brought up in Kirkton and Ardler . He first came to prominence in the early 2000’s when he led the fight to save the Scottish regiments. This fight was taken up by the SNP and it is thought that this propelled them to the election successes which followed on from that campaign. Jeff served in the Black Watch.

    228. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      BTW: Wouldn’t it be fine if ex-MP, Alex, spent a couple of hours in Jolly’s on that Saturday evening?

    229. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana: heeheehee!

      Hope to see you both at the next Wings jamboree, wherever that is.

      I think Norman would benefit from a poached egg on Stornoway Black Pudding/Tattie scone combo in bed tomorrow.

      *slinks out covering sensitive parts*

      And it’s good night fae me…..

    230. Alex Clark says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      The next friends of Wings meet up will be in Broughty Ferry on 11th November as Brian above has just pointed out.

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Thanks for the info Brian, I’ll make it along and have to hope I can last out for the day. I’ll be putting posts on the main thread over the next couple of weeks linking them to here on OT with more detailed posts about Jolly’s.

      I’m quite hopeful we will get a good few turning up, at least it happened last time with plenty coming who had never posted before. What about you Tinto? Fancy a night in Dundee 🙂

    231. Tinto Chiel says:

      Always up for a night in Yes City, ‘Well games/Mrs TC permitting…

      Normally only travel to Tannadice Street for either of the ‘Dee teams but I am curious yellow for wider cultural experiences.

      Does this mean I have to give Ian B a lift and stick to orange juice?

      Muses thereon…

      I can’t spend another night in Paula Rose’s smokehouse, before anyone suggests THAT again.

    232. Chick McGregor says:

      Sorry to hear about Jeff.

      Never actually met him but corresponded with him quite a bit on the indy marches.

      I wasn’t involved in organising the indy marches but I did pass on the contacts of some of the performers we had managed to get for the Independence First marches to Jeff and Anne and roped in the local SNP for delivering leaflets.

    233. Alex Clark says:


      Bring the missus with you, Jolly’s is a hotel and quite a nice one after a £1m refurb by Weatherspoons when they took it over, though not expensive at weekends.

      I hope you do make it, Ian is welcome to stay at mine as I’ve already told him and you too, we can always make room.

      Makes sense to me, here’s a good version of the logical song.

    234. Alex Clark says:

      @Chick McGregor

      You too Chick you and your lovely wife can make it to Dundee on the 11th I hope. Get one of the kids to run you in and pick you up 🙂

      I saw you once when you brought your wife to the bus for Glasgow night in in Kirriemuir you couldn’t come as you had the dogs to look after.

      Enjoy yourself for once get someone to look after the dogs and bring you to Dundee and get you home again.

      All the best anyway but I’d love you to come just so we could meet.

    235. Tinto Chiel says:

      We haven’t had enough Supertramp, Alex, mainly because I seem to have trouble finding any album tracks on YouTube.

      If I come, I’ll be up and down in a day (Ooh, matron!). Will consult and revert.

    236. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Cheil.

      “I am curious yellow”.

      I saw that product of the Swedish film industry in The Tivoli (Continental Films) in Dundee in the very early 70s. The Tiv was bra’ – had a bar for patrons, open till the same time as pubs; 10pm. My Uncle Jim was such a regular that he didn’t have to pay the 4 Bob to get in – they just let him go up to the bar.

      Another one from around the same time was “Sweden Heaven And Hell”, which featured this classic piece of music, a cover of which is played every Friday, just after 5, on Simon Mayo’s Radio 2 show.

    237. Tinto Chiel says:

      Alex, meant to say: thanks for the offer of accommodation. Ian likes his eggs poached, btw.

      Probs do it in a oner on an ocean of orange juice/tonic water if I can manage.

    238. Alex Clark says:

      Some dude has just gone and made a Youtube video of the Wee Black Book, from Rev’s twitter feed. Excellent stuff and some good tunes in there too 🙂

    239. Tinto Chiel says:

      BDTT: I’m going to pretend I don’t know what you’re talking about.

      Life’s simpler that way…..


    240. Chick McGregor says:


      I’m just a boring old fart these days Alex but I’ll check with the boss.

    241. CameronB Brodie says:

      @these-islands Advisory Council
      For such a gathering of professors and academics, I’m astonished by your flexible approach to facts and shit. Britain is not ‘One Nation’, Britain is not the same as the UK.

      “Modern Britain has been one of the most stable countries in the world. For the past 300 years, the union between England and Scotland – founded in turn upon the much older union between England and Wales – has held fast. Recently, though, the future of the United Kingdom has become a topic of increasingly convulsive debate. Two referendums have served as lightning rods for existential questions about the country’s identity. The 2014 referendum on Scottish independence put the very survival of the United Kingdom at stake; last year’s Brexit referendum has left the question of how its constituent nations should relate to one another very much up for grabs. These are unsettling times – but also exciting ones.” – these islands

      The Concept of Sovereignty Revisited
      European Journal of International Law, Volume 17, Issue 2, 1 April 2006, Pages 463–474,

      This essay, in discussing some recent contributions to the contemporary debate on sovereignty, focuses on what is at stake in this debate. While most authors today agree that the meaning of the concept of sovereignty is open to change across time and space, students of international law and international relations disagree about the causes and consequences of this conceptual change. While some scholars take such changes to be indicative of a corresponding transformation of global institutions, others regard them as evidence of the remarkable endurance of the Westphalian order. In this essay, I argue that this disagreement depends less on divergent accounts of the world, and more on the ontological status implicitly accorded to concepts by these authors. I conclude by pointing out that the very emphasis on the changing meaning of sovereignty makes normative problems intrinsically hard to settle, and that dealing with this impasse will be a major challenge to legal and political theory in the years to come.

    242. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I believe hens have an extreme dislike of those who remove eggs from underneath their @r$€$. Poached eggs are anti-hen. Mind you, I am partial to poached eggs and toast so I guess I’m a hypcrite for bringing it up.

      Time for bed, said Zebedee…

    243. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Smallaxe,

      Love and Peace Always =)


    244. Alex Clark says:

      See you all on the 11th then. FORGOT it was Remembrance Day.

      I’m a boring fart too Chick but at least we can bore each other 🙂

    245. William Wallace says:

      Ode tae the Sma Axe

      Recently I received the saddest news
      O a man held in high esteem
      Ehm sure it’s gave wi ah the blues
      To lose the captain o this great team

      When first eh came upon aff topic
      he wiz the first tae welcome me
      the polar opposite o misanthropic
      who conversed in love and poetry

      And may I take the chance to say that
      in the short time to me was he known
      He endeared himself tae me through chat
      and the seeds of love were sown

      You could tell by the posts he made
      that a great beauty lay deep within
      Profound wisdom in the words he said
      and peace and laughter did he bring

      A selfish pert o me wants to deny it
      and insist that he comes back tae post
      but of course eh understand sma axe
      you need to be wi them that you love the most

      And thus it pain’s meh heart sae dearly
      to ken that you’ll never post again
      Let me state this most sincerely
      You’ll be missed, peace always sma axe – mah friend

    246. CameronB Brodie says:

      @these-islands Advisory Council
      Re. your laxity in taxonomic rigor.

      Accuracy and Coherence: Prospects for an Alethic Epistemology of Partial Belief
      Traditional epistemology is both dogmatic and alethic. It is dogmatic in the sense that it takes the fundamental doxastic attitude to be full belief, the state in which a person categorically accepts some proposition as true. It is alethic in the sense that it evaluates such categorical beliefs on the basis of what William James calls the ‘two great commandments’ of epistemology: Believe the truth! Avoid error! Other central concepts of dogmatic epistemology – knowledge, justification, reliability, sensitivity, and so on – are understood in terms of their relationships to this ultimate standard of truth or accuracy….

      Reasons: Practical and Adaptive
      I will consider some of the differences between epistemic reasons and reasons for action, and use these differences to illuminate a major division between types of normative reasons2, which I will call ‘adaptive’ and ‘practical’ reasons. A few clarifications of some aspects of the concept of epistemic reasons will lead to a distinction between standard and non-standard reasons (section 1). Some differences between epistemic and practical reasons will be described and explained in section 2, paving the way to generalising the contrast and explaining the difference between adaptive and practical reasons (section 3). Sections 4 & 5 further explain and defend the views of the preceding sections. My ultimate goal is an explanation of normativity. But the present paper does more to explain a difficulty such an explanation faces than to resolve it.

      The Ontological Turn
      ….A main upshot of the book is that the ontological turn is to be understood as a strictly methodological (as opposed to theoretical, let alone metaphysical or philosophical) injunction. The ontological turn is a ‘technology of ethnographic description’, which deepens and intensifies three concerns that have long been at the centre of anthropological analysis, namely reflexivity, conceptualization and experimentation. This has profound consequences for other core concerns, including the relationship between ethnography and theory, the role of critique, the nature of ethical and political commitments; as well as for the study of a diverse range of topics, such as traditional anthropological stomping-grounds like myth, kinship and animism, as well as more recent themes of investigation such as materiality and Christianity, to name just a couple.

      So, the ontological turn is a response to that most defining anthropological question: How do I enable my ethnographic material to reveal itself to me, guiding or compelling me to see things that I had not expected, or imagined, to be there? What we wish to achieve in using the ‘philosophical concept’ of ontology is the exact opposite of the transcendental truth-goal of traditional metaphysics. Instead of building essentialist castles, the core aim of ‘our’ ontological turn is relentlessly to challenge, distort and transform all things, concepts and theories pretending to be absolute, by strategically exposing them to ethnographically generated challenges and paradoxes that can systematically undermine them. In spite of its name, then, the ontological turn in anthropology is decidedly unconcerned with the ‘really real’ nature of the world or any similar metaphysical quest. Rather, it is a methodological project that poses ontological questions to solve epistemological problems. Only, as the book shows, in anthropology epistemology has to be about ontology too.

    247. Tinto Chiel says:

      William Wallace: that was great and you express the feelings of many on here, I’m sure.

    248. Liz g says:

      William Wallace @ 12.45
      Well said, William.

    249. Nana says:

      William, your poem is beautiful.

      I will copy and send to Smallaxe later today and I’m sure he will want me to thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.

    250. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Nigel Biggar
      As I suspected it might be, your normative bias appears profound. Do you actually believe it possible to be a moderate patriot to a unitary state? Do you think it ethical that English votes determine Scotland’s future?


      Above and beyond artful institutional contrivances, liberal democracies rely on cultural and moral conditions that cannot betaken for granted. To remain “liberal,” however, these regimes must safeguard a sphere in which individuals and groups can act, without state interference, in ways that reflect their understanding of what gives meaning and value to their lives. What is the relationship between the “civic” and the “expressive” strands of liberalism? What should we do when state action designed to bolster the preconditions of liberal democracy constrains expressive liberty in troubling ways, or conversely, when the exercise of expressive liberty is at odds with what may be regarded as liberal democratic preconditions. This conflict inevitably arises in public institutions such as schools, but it also emerges when the state seeks to regulate the structure and conduct of voluntary associations.

      Must civil associations mirror the constitutional order if they are to sustain that order? The resolution of this issue revolves in part around empirical questions. For example, to what extent do illiberal or undemocratic voluntary associations engender patterns of conduct, belief, and character that weaken liberal democratic polities? Scholars certainly do not agree on this point in general, and they rarely agree in specific cases.1 Theorists such as Stephen Macedo are right to emphasize the dangers of complacency.2 Liberal democratic citizens are made, not born, and we cannot rely blithely on the invisible hand of civil society to carry out civic paideia.3

      Law, Liberty and State: Oakeshott, Hayek and Schmitt on the Rule of Law.
      It is rare that a work of academic political theory is timely, especially one whose subjects have all been dead for several decades. Nonetheless, this collection of essays on Carl Schmitt, Friedrich Hayek, and Michael Oakeshott speaks to several issues that remain unresolved both in political philosophy and in political practice. The essays concern the character of the political community, the nature of the rule of law, and liberty under the rule of law. The three thinkers who are the subject of the collection wrote extensively about all three issues, though there are significant differences in emphasis among them. All three issues remain central to contemporary political life, with contentious disagreements about immigration and national identity, the character and authority of law, and the nature and limits of liberty defining the distinctions between the various partisan camps in European and North American politics.

      Civil Liberty and Democracy
      Overall, there are three groups of civil liberties and they can all be subdivided into a number of features out of which not all are directly relevant for democracy:

      Personal Integrity Rights (freedom from …):
      Personal Exertion Rights (freedom of …):
      Legal rights (rule of law):

    251. Marie Clark says:

      Hi folks, I’m so sad to hear about Smallaxe, OT is not the same without him, but I’m sure that we all understand his reasons. Time with the family now is so important.

      William Wallace, oh you made me greet. What a beautiful poem, you speak for all of us I think.I wish you all the best Smallaxe & Mrs Smallaxe, you have a sair road in front of you. Peace and love to both of you.

      On another subject. I’m still trying to catch up with all that’s going on. I thought I had the lurgy, but it turned out it was a bad chest infection, so I’ve been laid low for a wee while. I notice on the MT that man at C&A appears to be missing. Has he been hammered by the Rev, or has he just done us all a favour and slunk off. Not that I miss him, one less eejit to scoll past.

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Nigel Biggar
      Re. Scottish independence; ‘What’s it good for?’

      Apart from connecting Scottish democracy to popular sovereignty and establishing the potential for a human rights based platform for ethical approaches to sustainable human development? You’ll not find that in the UKOK Yoonion and you can bank on that.

      The Right to Development at a glance

      What is the Right to Development?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      Critical Theory and World Politics: Citizenship, Sovereignty and Humanity by Andrew Linklater

      A Critical Review of John Austin’s The Province of Jurisprudence Determined
      This critical review provides an analytic summary of John Austin’s The Province of Jurisprudence Determined, focusing in particular on Lectures I and II, and concludes by developing two critiques of Austin’s theory of law. Specifically, in the summary I review the conceptual foundations of Austin’s command theory and the two types of law “properly so called,” namely the general commands that men impose upon other men to regulate their conduct, and the divine laws that are revealed either through scripture or by applying the principle of utility to the analysis of social practice. In my critical interjection, I raise two objections to Austin’s theory: First, that Austin fails to persuasively consider the prospect of a conflict between divine natural law and state-sanctioned positive law, along with the consequences of the application of the principle of utility to adjudicate such a conflict; and second, that despite the claims to general applicability implied throughout Austin’s framework, his conceptualization of the law remains a prisoner of both time and place, collapsing in the face of Montesquieuian systems of separation of powers or contemporary constitutional practices.

    253. Ruglonian says:

      Hey folks,
      Just checking in to see if there’s been any arrangements made for going up to the Ferry by bus/train next week?
      I’ll be traveling from Glasgow so if anyone fancies company on the way up (and last train back, couldn’t find a hotel :() let me know and we can arrange to meet.

    254. Nana says:

      @Marie Clark

      I wondered where you were Marie, sorry to hear you have been unwell.

      Re the man at C&A I’m not sure if he’s still about, probably lurking around somewhere.

      It’s good to see you back Marie, take care of yourself.

    255. Marie Clark says:

      Thank you Nana, it’s good to be back.I don’t have much choice but to take care, the much beloved hovers round at the moment. I think that he’s got used to being chief cook and bottle washer.Maybe he doesn’t want to give it up, fine by me. It’s nice to be looked after for a wee change.Wee smiley thing.

    256. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Smallaxe,

      Just so ye know…

      And we stand, and we stand and we stand again
      When they bring the bullets, we’ll bring the pens
      we stand and we stand and we stand again
      Peace and love, peace and love

    257. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Nigel Biggar
      To be honest bud, I knew pretty much where you were coming from with your opening line. What do you think gives English MPs the right to deny Scots access to inalienable human rights? Is it ’cause tradition has convinced you that English cultural values and norms are an ethically moral fit for all? Does English law stand above Scots law? Bit of a Benthamite are you?

      Centripetalism in Consociational Democracy: The Multiple Proportional Vote

      Belgium illustrates that using consociational institutions in divided societies may ensure a peaceful political climate, but it does not succeed in reducing the centrifugal tendencies. As ethnic issues threaten to paralyse the political debate, preserving the efficiency of the state will require adding centripetal incentives to the consociational framework thanks to a new electoral system, the Multiple Proportional Vote (MPV). Being able both to maintain the consociational goal of reflecting the different communities in the parliament, and to strengthen centripetal trends in allowing electors of every group to cast their preferences for candidates of the different communities, MPV suggests that consociationalism and its main theoretical alternative, centripetalism, are far from mutually exclusive.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Nigel Biggar
      You do appreciate Scottish culture is a bit different to English culture?

      Misty in Roots – Oh! Wicked man

    259. Tinto Chiel says:

      Glad to see you back, Marie.

      Please chill to this:

      We need you fit and healthy for Independence Day.

    260. Marie Clark says:

      Ah Tinto, my dear dancing mate, thanks for the song. I’ve been known to sing that at times when I’ve had one or two.

      Energy is still very low, but I feel fine. I’ll be there on Independence Day, I reckon it’s maybe not too far away now all things considered.

      Well, onwards and upwards as they say.

    261. Alex Clark says:


      Next week??? It’s the 11th November so two and a half weeks yet LOL.

      There are trains from both Glasgow and Edinburgh that stop in Broughty Ferry and leave at around the times peoplemight want them. I’ve just read your post and will need to double check before posting anything.

      I can’t afford to make mistakes else I’ll be hung lol.

      Regards a hotel I see Jolly’s is full on the Saturday night, shame really as the rest of the week is only £39/49 night.

      You are Gillian right? Then you have the option of staying at mine, I promise to behave 🙂

      I also hope to have Paula, Ian, Cactus and cearc staying, could make for a good blether after the pub.

    262. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      Braw poem.

    263. Ruglonian says:

      Hey Alex, aye Gillian here!
      Sorry, I was getting mixed up with the SIC that’s next week – I’ve got so much on just now that I can’t keep up.

      It’s kind of you to offer to put me up, and it sounds like I’d be in great company, but are you sure you’ll have the room?

    264. chasanderson200 says:

      Try the Premier Inn at Panmuirfield in Dundee. It is a 5 minute taxi from Jollys. I managed to get a room for £35.

    265. Ian Foulds says:

      Subject – Trident and Aircraft Carrier Queen Elizabeth

      If they have just dredged Portsmouth harbour to accommodate the aircraft carrier, why can’t they go a few metres deeper to accommodate their really nasty submarine?

    266. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, Marie. Normally, I would drone you over some peeled grapes but I’m busting my Carmichael fulfilling Nana’s massive emergency ironing order, so I’m a bit pressed for time and will probs be steaming all night. Look after yourself!

      Check out this guy’s barnet: puts my lovely quiff to shame, soanitdoes.

    267. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone know identity of the non-Bowie dudes in the image here?

      It’s not important…just wondering.

      Bowie, ‘The Secret Life of Arabia’ –

    268. Ian Foulds says:

      Subject – Facts not Statistics

      I noted recent headlines which implied that voters would be more interested in facts than statistics, in a future Referendum.

      With the plethora of information and knowledge possessed by the Rev (see his wee books and updates), together with the information provided by contributors here and other erudite bloggers, is it not possible to bring as much factual (and referenced) information as possible together to be provided to potential Yessers in the next Referendum.

      I appreciate much discussion, organisation and input, by many individuals and some formal organisations and media would be required to achieve such a goal.

    269. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Foulds
      Devonport already has the Trafalgars, but also one Vanguard (Vengance).

    270. Alex Clark says:


      Plenty room, the flock have grown up and flown.

      There’s three empty bedrooms and a couch for Ian. he has always said he doesn’t mind sleeping on the couch or the carpet 🙂

      You and cearc would have a room each to yourselves, I enjoy the company. Looking forward to this now, the last one in Dundee was great.

      This one too can be, no matter how many turn up, it will be great.

    271. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      Just to confirm…

      I can – and will – sleep anywhere, anytime, so long as I know it’s a Tory-free zone.


    272. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Let’s hope then that there are no Tories hiding under any of the beds 🙂

    273. cearc says:

      I’m quite happy to share if anyone else turns up.


      We’re still waiting for layer 2. Hope you make it to the ferry as well.

    274. Alex Clark says:


      I’ll second that, c’mon Chick have a good night out in friendly company. I hope to see you and the good wife in the Ferry on the 11th.

    275. Ruglonian says:

      Woohoo, thanks so much Alex – I can’t wait!!

    276. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –


      Even the idea of finding a Tory under yer bed…


      That’s a proper scary Halloween story for all Scots – weans or adults regardless – right now…


    277. cearc says:

      I assume the Paula Rose will be sleeping in the puppy cage?

    278. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Alex, excellent, cheers, aye n count me in for Chez Clark.

      Lookin’ forward to the house-party bro!

      Ah’ll bring strings.

      “Out Of Many, One People”.

      A good guy knows 😉


    279. Cactus says:

      Ahm awa tae ‘fish’ ma feet out of me warm aquarium.

      The wine is good tonight and today.

      Broughty Ferry.

    280. Cactus says:

      Alternate posting.


      With over 17 million viewee’s, aye give you…

      Here be a song by Buggles:

      “We can’t rewind, we’ve gone (morelike come) too far”

      iScotland Calling!

      Medieval Tele Vision.


    281. William Wallace says:

      Ehm no coming

      Stick yir cosy club up yir arse 😉

    282. William Wallace says:

      Stu, fuck off wi yir haudin back iy.

      Ehm no coming tae yir winger cosy club shite when good people are dying.

      Eh’m gonna start a riot man – fuck it.

      Fuck the lot o yiz man.

    283. Cactus says:

      But then…

      “We can’t rewind, we’ve (they’ve) gone too far!”

      Exactlyness… A50 has been initiated, fuse been lit like.

      Modern life now is now like countdowns for real.

      Roll on to being a normal country (again).

      iScotland will make a difference.

      iScotland will do good.

      See yee’s there.







      Broughty Ferry…

      See yee’s there.





    284. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Ehm no coming unless sma axe does tbh

      You lot can kiss meh erse ya cosy club cnuts

      We are gonna cause mayhem that night 😉 You lot can drink amongst yirselves if you dinnae hae the good grace to invite abody else. 😉

      We’ll be drinking on the beach iy.

      Come and join us… 😉

    285. Cactus says:


    286. Nana says:

      I’m away for the weekend, I leave you with Albert’s theory of happiness.

      Plus lots of interesting lectures and free courses, something for everyone.

    287. Fred says:

      Lovely frosty Glesga so off to Ben Oovi. Folk who had the wean christened Pedro must be regretting it noo!

    288. Marie Clark says:

      Nana, have a good weekend and thank you for all of your links.

      I.m away for the weekend myself so see you all when I get back.

    289. David says:

      Hello Ian Brotherhood –
      Left to right in the Bowie photo:
      Robert Fripp; Colin Thurston; Bowie; Brian Eno. “recording ‘Heroes’ in Berlin, Photo: Christian Simonpietri/Sygma/Corbis”

      Also have a look at two similar, but in colour, photos here, taken from Twitter posts from Brian Eno (@dark_shark)himself :

    290. Tinto Chiel says:

      Have a great weekend, Nana, Fred and Marie, and indeed all you vile seps. Fred, look out for the each-uisge in the wee lochan, mind.

      Check out the barnet on this guy: pure puts my quiff to shame!

    291. William Wallace says:

      Opens eyes, assesess carnage 😉 Shorry folks 😉

      Sorry Stu (Checked my tabs and saw the post I thought I had posted and was being held back had not even been submitted) Meh bad.

    292. Tinto Chiel says:

      Forgot to append (ooh!) this for Fred:

    293. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      We’ve all done it so wouldn’t concern yorself with it 🙂

      I hope you do make it along to the Ferry. I don’t expect too many will turn up just the usual diehards though I would expect a few local worthies who are lurkers to come along as they did last time.

      We’re all members of the same club, those that are most vocal in seeking Independence for Scotland. Your part of that club and I’m glad you are.

    294. Cactus says:

      Afternoon William Wallace & Wingers ~

      Looks like we’ve made some new friends on the main thread 🙂

      Cheers for the cheers last night.. to the beach aye!

      If only they knew.


    295. David says:

      What a day:
      Rev Stu turns 50!
      Catalonia turns indy!

      When is it Scotland’s turn?

    296. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      We’ve all done it so wouldn’t concern yourself with it

      Me mair than maist unfortunately.

      We’re all members of the same club, those that are most vocal in seeking Independence for Scotland. Your part of that club and I’m glad you are.

      Thank you and back at ya.

      @ Cactus

      Greeting Gus? 🙂 We might hae to restrict wir lunacy tae aff-topic. 😉

      God knows what wiz going through meh heid last night. Think it wiz no getting on the list for an invite to Alex’s wee after gathering at his hoose lol ( drunken logic:) ) That and thinking aboot Sma no being able to join the shenanigans. I would really have liked the opportunity to meet him and buy him a pint.

      Eh should gi up the drink really, it’s getting oot o hand.

    297. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hearken unto the words of the Moody Mancunian Mystic:

      Good advice to stymie the State Propagandist.

      WW: as Alex said, we’ve all done it/do it occasionally. Worry ye not.

      I prescribe a strict regime of organic quinoa, spring water and bending exercises.

      For five minutes: then get back to the malt (responsibly, of course).


    298. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      Your welcome at mine. Jist that you’ll have to sleep on the carpet LOL 🙂

    299. William Wallace says:

      @ TC

      I prescribe a strict regime of organic quinoa, spring water and bending exercises.

      For five minutes: then get back to the malt (responsibly, of course).


      Genuinely Lol’d there.

      @ Alex

      Ty. I just meant an invite back if further shenanigans were planned. In my drunken state I thought I was getting blown oot. 🙂

      I’d be getting a taxi back to my mums if/when abody was going to sleep anyway. Kipping in a big double bed in the spare room wi meh mums full breakfast in the morning beats the flair hands doon 😉

    300. Tinto Chiel says:

      Taking of breakfasts, my daughters keep coming back overnight to The Ponderosa to consume my Light TC Breakfast, to wit:

      Two tattie scones crisply fried in sunflower oil, upon one of which has been placed a poached egg, cooked lightly in salted, non-vinegared water and slowly-spun to fold in the albumen, and then dusted with pepper once on the plate.


      Bit obsessional when it comes to food. My Stornoway black pudding supper is legendary (in ma heid).


    301. Tinto Chiel says:

      By which I mean: so many options.

      Do you fry the SBP, five mins a side in SF oil?

      Or bake ’em in the oven, 15 mins at 200 degrees?

      Or microwave ’em for 0110?

      And then press kitchen roll onto the slices to remove excess saturated fats.

      I’m more of an organic, no-sugar mega-oat Muesli man myself, with a lavishment of skyr thereon.

      Is there honey still for tea?

    302. David says:

      Not said it before, so – haste ye back, Smallaxe, we’re missing you on OffTopic already. I mean it’s descending even further into bonkersness without you here to keep an eye on it…

      Anyway, the Rev turns 50 today, so congrats to him. But I still reckon he’s one of the younger users of this site. 😉
      More seriously, this site’s readers must be well-placed to talk, as equals, to former No-voters of a certain vintage. We can calm their media-based fears and convert them to Yes, where they might not listen to younger activists.

      I always wondered about the line at the top of this page:
      “Posted on January 02, 1968 by Rev. Stuart Campbell”. Not quite Rev’s birthday, but very close.

      Congratulations to Spain’s Mariano Rajoy, he has done an excellent job.
      I mean, who else has been the midwife at the successful birth of a new nation…

      …and all it took was a few thousand brutal stormtroopers to hurry up the gestation period.

      Music for Catalonia – “I’m Free” (and freedom tastes like reality) by The Who.

      It includes the message from Catalonia to Scotland – “I’m free, and I’m waiting for you to follow me”…

    303. Tinto Chiel says:

      “I mean it’s descending even further into bonkersness without you here to keep an eye on it…”

      You obviously haven’t been monitoring O/T for long: it’s always been refreshingly mental, David, with a musical heart.

      Not a fan of black pudding, then?

    304. David says:

      Aww Tinto, I’m a lurker not a monitorer. 🙂

      As for pudding, I like to channel 007, or is it Mae West – “I like my pudding as I like my women – sweet and sticky.”

      And if my wife reads this page, my account was hacked, dearest.

      “Kerryann’s Sticky Toffee Pudding”

    305. Tinto Chiel says:

      Sorry: keep confusing you with The Other David on the M/T. Jeez!

      For weeks I confused the estimable Call Me Dave with daft old (Insensate) Sensible Dave.

      Perhaps a slight change to naming might help my deteriorating brain: David 1987 or David Gilmour?

      Or just David The Buddy? Just some suggestions from a friend.

      Mair poo’er tae yir elbuck in ony case.

    306. cearc says:


      I made a little muscovy duck black pudding last week, very tasty.

    307. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Send the vibes out to the people of Catalonia…

      Gil Scott Heron, ‘Your Soul And Mine’ –

    308. Michael McCabe says:

      @ cearc 9:42pm sorry to inform you. it is not right to feed ducks black pudding. 😀

    309. Tinto Chiel says:

      IanB : amen to that.

      cearc: tasty but unusual. Would love a wee tate*, as we used to say in Lanarkshire.

      Do you remember when Nick Nairn went to South Uist to talk to the lady who had been making BPs since Moses was a nipper? She started to strain fresh blood, clots, hair and all to add to the oatmeal, onions, etc but it all got too much for him and he had to go outside to have a boak.

      What a silly sausage!

      *un petit morceau or small piece*

    310. Alex Clark says:

      I don’t often get emotional but I’ll make an exception for this song. My old man loved it for some reason.

    311. cearc says:


      After all the hassle of making it, I wouldn’t dream of giving it to them. If they want black pudding they can make it for themselves. I guess that’s why they stick to frogs, insects and the occasional mouse for their meaty treats.

    312. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you’re in the mood for a wee invigorating boogie around the room, ye’ll no beat this.

      It’s just ridiculously good.

      Daft Punk, ‘Lose Yourself To Dance’ –

    313. Alex Clark says:

      I’ve decided that from tomorrow I will stop drinking and smoking just like that. Bookies offering odds of 100/1 lol

    314. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I liked that now and the first time around. If only I was…:)

    315. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Cactus = )

      Where are you pet ? Missed you on the MT.

      Your’s is a pure and joyous delight in all things wonderful and especially Indy =) Much needed light and joy.

      Trust you are celebrating somewhere cosy and braw the New Independent Republic of Catalunia 🙂

      They may yet have a rocky road to travel for a while, but there are many many good folk cheering them along their way!

      To Catalunia :

      And there’s a hand my trusty fere,
      And gie’s a hand o thine =)

      Visca Catalunia 🙂

    316. Tinto Chiel says:

      IanB @11.46: some great dance moves there. Is that what Alex’s BF parties are like?

      Need to get some platforms.

    317. Shinty says:

      Tinto Chiels @10.07pm

      To be fair, I think he was severely hungover from the previous night.

      Still, it was really funny.

    318. Shinty says:

      PS should add, I think Nick Nairn is a secret Yesser (always thought he was a Yoon, but apparently not)

    319. Tinto Chiel says:

      Shinty: think you’re right, it’s coming back to me about the hangover.

      NN a Yesser? I’d like to think so but we need more celebs to come out, like Martin Compston. Found myself standing beside Greenock’s finest in the departure lounge at Glasgow Airport in May and wanted to thank him for what he’s done for the campaign but I chickened out. Then when my daughters found out I hadn’t get a selfie with him I got pelters. They idolise him because of LoD.

      Talking of celebs, I saw Christopher Brookmyre mentioned as a Yesser but I’ve never heard him say a word on the subject, despite going to a talk and reading he gave in Hillhead Library.

      Anyone got chapter and verse?

    320. CameronB Brodie says:

      Are celebs not keen to be seen at the front of social movements? Well, the British approach to human development is stuck in the 19th century, that’s why social mobility is declining. An iScotland could do so much better for the future of all.

      Income Inequality Is a Sustainability Issue

      This evening, President Obama will deliver his State of the Union Address, and it is widely reported that it will focus on the issue of income inequality. He will be “on trend,” as they say in fashion — in recent months, leaders from the new Mayor of New York to the Pope have also been vocal on the subject. Just last week, the World Economic Forum named income inequality as “the risk that is most likely to cause serious damage globally in the coming decade,” and Oxfam International reported that the world’s 85 richest people have more wealth than the 3.5 billion in the bottom half of the scale, and that 70 percent of the world’s people live in countries where income inequality has increased in the past 30 years.

      Reducing inequalities: A Sustainable Development Challenge

      It is easier to recognize the problems caused by unequal resource allocation than it is to understand what causes them. Comprehending the causes requires an analysis of the conditions that produce differential access to resources; it also requires an understanding of the criteria that categorize people into differential social groups. A historical view of inequality shows the durability of these social categorizations; it also shows opportunities for altering them and transforming society.

      Poverty, wealth and place in Britain, 1968 to 2005


      It is clear that the last two and a half decades have witnessed substantial increases in the spatial segregation and concentration of poverty and wealth in Britain. The overall decline and slight spatial deconcentration in core poor households in the 1990s are hopeful signs. However, the 1990s also saw relative poverty levels climb to unprecedented levels of more than one in four households by 2000, and for the first time there were some areas where more than half of all households were poor. Wealthy households have become more segregated, and increasingly concentrated in the south east of England.

      Data for the years since 2000 present a mixed picture of what has happened more recently. Only with the release of a comprehensive census in 2011, especially one that allows us to more effectively measure wealth or even asks for income directly, will we be able to discover whether this first decade of the new millennium has seen Britain become a geographically, socially and economically fairer place in which to live.

    321. Shinty says:

      Tinto Chiel, I’m fairly certain they will all come out the closet once the starting pistol is fired for ir2. They know this time there is too much at stake to remain silent.

    322. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin McKeever
      Scotland is a country, England is another country. British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism that gives preference to English voters, marginalising those from Scotland. Are you comfortable with Scotland’s democratic deficit? Are you an English socialist?

      Nationalism Theory

      Expansionist nationalism/right-wing nationalism

      The aggressive face of nationalism became apparent in the late nineteenth century.

      Jingoism – mood of nationalist enthusiasm and public celebrations provoked by military expansion or imperial conquest.

      Distinguishes from liberal nationalism as it is chauvinistic – derived from Nicolas Chauvin, a French soldier who had been fanatically devoted to Napoleon. Nations are not thought to be equal in their right to self-determination, rather some nations are believed to possess characteristics or qualities that make them superior to others.

      National chauvinism breeds from a feeling of intense, even hysterical nationalist enthusiasm. Charles Maurras called such intense patriotism “integral nationalism”: individuals and independent groups lose their identity within an all-powerful ‘nation’, which has an existence and meaning beyond the life of any single individual. This is often accompanied by militarism.

      National chauvinism has particularly strong appeal for the isolated and powerless, for whom nationalism offers the prospect of security, self-respect and pride. Often stimulated by ‘negative integration’, the portrayal of another nation or race as a threat or an enemy. In the face of the enemy, the nation draws together and experiences an intensified sense of its own identity and importance.

      The incoherence of strong popular sovereignty

      This paper argues that the strong conception of popular sovereignty employed in the German Federal Constitutional Court’s recent decision on the Treaty of Lisbon is incoherent and should not be used as the centerpiece of a democratic constitutional theory. Strong conceptions of popular sovereignty are usually defended on the basis of the claim that an appeal to strong popular sovereignty is necessary to ground the legitimacy of constitutional law. In fact, strong conceptions of popular sovereignty eliminate the conceptual space for the idea of legitimate law. This thesis is developed through a critical discussion of Carl Schmitt’s constitutional theory—which appears to be the main inspiration behind contemporary arguments for strong popular sovereignty—as well as through an analysis of the Lisbon decision of the Bundesverfassungsgericht

      Conceptions of strong popular sovereignty contrast with weaker notions of popular sovereignty. The latter either understand popular sovereignty to be immanent in a framework of constitutional rules that makes political leadership elective and gives equal rights of democratic participation to all citizens,1 or they hold that the creation of a new constitution is, at the same time, an act of self-constitution of a new people.2 Popular sovereignty, in the first of these weak conceptions, is simply another name for well-ordered democratic government, since the will of the people is identified with the outcomes of a democratic process governed by constitutional law. In this conception, there can be no people prior to or apart from constitutional law, and all talk of the people as the historical author of the constitution is taken to be a fiction without normative relevance.3

      The second, weaker conception of popular sovereignty attempts to make more room for the idea that the people can, in a normatively relevant sense, be regarded as the historical author of the constitution. It holds that any truly democratic constitution originates from a revolutionary moment of new constitutional beginning that constitutes a new political nation, and it argues that the present constitution, if it is to be legitimate, must keep alive and develop the promise of freedom made in the beginning. However, since the view ties the existence of a people, as a political association, to the continuity of its constitution, it has no room for the idea that the popular sovereign can choose at will to abrogate the existing constitution and give itself a completely new constitution while, nevertheless, retaining its political existence and identity.

      The Principle of State Sovereignty and the Right to Self-determination:
      The Case of Kosovo

      Sovereignty and self-determination are two basic norms of international law which often appear in contradiction to each other. The main debate here is which principle limits the other and the answer depends on an valuation of each case. The case of Kosovo is a classic example of this dilemma. Both sides, Kosovo Caesar!nian and Serb, claim their own rights based mainly on historical arguments, the former the right to self-determination in the form of their own state and the latter the right to retain the province of Kosovo under the framework of Serbia.

      Historical arguments or historical rights are an outdated concept. The modern concept of self-determination, developed from Woodrow Wilson’s theory which is linked to democracy, allows Kosovo Caesar!nians the right to external self-determination. Sovereignty of the state does not exist as an absolute concept anymore, since it is directly inked to respect of basic human rights. Even that the self -determination can not derive to a consistent international legal order, Kosovo Caesar!nians have the right to external self-determination and their own state, since they were severely oppressed by the Milosevi? regime. Self-determination remains a radical concept to this day, one which can only be applied on a case by case basis and by taking into account of various factors.

      P.S. are you comfortable about Whitehall’s suppression of the McCrone report and now the regional Brexit impact assessments? Do you support universal human rights?

    323. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Shinty at 12.48

      Nick Nairn’s father Jimmy was a certain yesser. He came with Dorothy Paul to help Winnie’s campaign in Hamilton 50 years ago.
      Martin Compston was a the opening of our Forward Shop in Dunoon and gave us a donation

    324. Tinto Chiel says:

      I would hope so, Shinty but I know some of our most famous money-spinning “writers” were definitely not with us before and I don’t imagine for a minute they will change next time. They don’t want to rock the boat and, who knows, there may be an MBE/knighthood in the offing…

      ‘Twas not always thus: I remember Norman MacCaig gave an interview to a very nice, earnest English interviewer in the 80s where he said he voted SNP and Edwin Morgan left his entire estate to the party.

      Of course, Hugh MacDiarmid voted No in in 1979 ‘cos he was dead.

      Thanks, George 40% Cunningham, Labour “Scottish” MP for Islington who joined the SDP soon after, a thus became a double sell-out.

    325. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      ‘Hugh MacDiarmid voted No in in 1979 ‘cos he was dead.’

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    326. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Kevin McKeever
      Do you not see popular emancipation from colonial domination as progressive communal struggle?

      Human Rights and Peoples’ Rights: An Introduction

      Individual Rights and Collective Rights

      Woven throughout this issue of Social Justice is the constant tension and dialectical interplay between the human rights of the individual member of society and the collective rights of a people. In the historical evolution of the concepts of rights — components of which are presented here in three complementary articles by Theo van Boven, Salvatore Senese, and Bill Felice — “human rights,” or the rights of the individual, have become more generally accepted and codified in modern Western law than the collective “rights of peoples.” This is a reflection primarily of the ideological underpinnings of capitalism and of the American and French revolutions. However, the historical reluctance on the part of Western policy-makers to emphasize peoples’ rights also stems from the fact that frequent abuses of individual freedoms have taken place in the name of doctrines associated with “collective rights,” such as “national security.” Van Boven points out, for example, that the horrors of European fascism left the drafters of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights hesitant to give any prominence to collective rights. The complete text of that important document, together with Rita Maran’s history of the Declaration, are included in this issue.

      National Self-Determination and Secession: The Slovak Model

      For there are very few so foolish,
      that they had not rather governe
      themselves than be governed by others.’


      National self-determination2 as a governing principle of international law enjoyed a brief but colorful period of acceptance in the af-termath of World War I.3 The international order which developed around the Treaty of Versailles4 attempted, in practice,5 to legitimizethis principle by realigning the geographic boundaries of Eastern andCentral Europe along national lines which evidenced a belief that the “nation” and the “state” should coincide6 in an effort to restore a lastingdemocratic peace to a historically troubled area. As the ineffectivenessof the Versailles system became apparent,8 the principle of national self-determination fell into disrepute and became a symbol of the Pyrrhicvictory achieved by Wilsonian idealism.’

      However, despite this failed history, national self-determinationremains a powerful emotional and political principle’10 and the refusal of the international community to recognize its validity has contributed to the unprincipled, often violent, dismemberment and destruction
      of long-settled unified States.11

      Powers and Faden’s Concept of Self-Determination and What It Means to ‘Achieve’ Well-Being in Their Theory of Social Justice


      Powers and Faden argue that social justice ‘is concerned with securing and maintaining the social conditions necessary for a sufficient level of well-being in all of its essential dimensions for everyone’ (2006: 50). Moreover, social justice is concerned with the ‘achievement of well-being, not the freedom or capability to achieve well-being’ (p. 40). Although Powers and Faden note that an agent alone cannot achieve well-being without the necessary social conditions of life (e.g. equal civil liberties and basic material resources, such as food and shelter), it seems that achievement requires that an agent actually pursue the six dimensions of well-being. In this article, I question the extent to which an individual has an obligation to achieve well-being, even if he or she would choose to do otherwise. For example, can an agent choose to forgo being healthy even if all the social conditions are met in her life, thereby choosing to not achieve well-being? It remains unclear how the dimension of self-determination coheres with the remaining five dimensions of well-being and the extent of society’s obligations toward an individual’s achievement of well-being, even in those instances when society’s actions may go against an individual’s right to self-determination.

    327. Paula Rose says:

      Puts a shilling in the jukebox…

    328. Tinto Chiel says:

      Och, Ian, you’re probably too young and beautiful to remember that time but it still rankles. This was merely devolution, mind, not independence, yet all the usual Nay-sayers were out in force. Babcock and Wilcox was one which has always stuck in my mind, for some reason. When I went to my GPs they had a sticker along the lines of Doctors for No or some such. Would make you sick.

      After the concocted result, I fired off a couple of indignant letters to The Scotsman, which was a real newspaper in those days, and then that was basically it. In the pre-internet age it was very much “Move along now, nothing to see” and everything just fizzled out. I remember finishing a Scotsman letter with the plangent plea, “I doubt a hundred John MacLeans could rouse Scotland now.”

      So much for rhetoric, but I felt it sore at the time.

      Neal Ascherson has often remarked on the number of friends he lost to drink and worse in the aftermath.

      What a state we’re in, Wingers, if you’ll pardon the pun.

      Tick, tock, I fervently pray…

    329. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      I remember it well, and the pain.

      One of the very first comments I made in this place was about that result, and the fact that it probably finished off my Granda – he gave up the ghost, had a series of strokes and heart attacks, lost his mind and died in early ’87. Last time I met him he had no idea who I was.

      It’s mibbe not rational, but I do ‘blame’ the unionists/MSM, not for ‘killing’ him as such, but for denying him a lifelong dream and making his last few years so miserable. Can’t help wondering how many lives and dreams they’ve ruined with their greed and ludicrous superiority complex. Here’s hoping we don’t end up added to the list.

    330. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Blimey, sorry for getting a bit morbid here, but it’s that time of year eh?

      I’m not the only Bowie fan who was properly fucking scunnered by his ‘alleged’ intervention in the indy debate, but you can only hold that against someone for so long. Personally, I don’t believe he ‘said’ it, and if he did it was probably a flippant aside, more of a joke than anything.

      Anyway, I found it very difficult to watch ‘Lazarus’ (the single released around the time he died) but I’ve been catching-up and just can’t stop watching the one linked-to below, must’ve played it fifteen times since last night. Something about it is horribly addictive…

      Bowie, ‘Blackstar’ –

    331. Tinto Chiel says:

      Don’t worry, Ian, we’re very close to endgame and you’ll see a free Scotland I’m sure, but I do think of all the folk who suffered in silence because there was no resistance network and the media dictated the agenda: so many blighted, hopeless lives, it would make a Tory pwoud, vewwy pwoud.


      Regarding your crows from the M/T, there is some evidence of a parliament of crows, where they surround a few of their number guilty of some corvine offence, and, after due process as the Yanks say, they are pecked to death after cawing sentence.

      They are clever buggers.

    332. Tinto Chiel says:

      Forgot to ask, cearc: do you have a black pudding recipe you’d care 2 share?

      I’m doing my first hasselback tatties tomorrow so am feeling a bit nervous.

      It’s a funny old game, Saint.

    333. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Hoots mon.

      Aye, the ‘crows court’ thing.

      My grandad was from Sligo. He claimed to have watched such a court – solitary crow was faced by semi-circle of peers, they had a gab, then ‘he’ was cast out!

      We humans just don’t ‘get’ nature at all, do we?

    334. Paula Rose says:

      I don’t I really don’t…

    335. Cactus says:

      Cheers ma beautiful Ghillie.

      Love u babes.


    336. Shinty says:

      Tinto Chiel – I really feel for all you guys who have been through it all and for those who have passed on not seeing their dream fulfilled.

      My Dad’s aunt was an SNP member and I remember as a child (50 years ago) my mother referred to her as a ‘nutter’. I often think about just how hard it’s been for indy supporters to get to where we are today.

      I only got into politics about 7 years ago, ashamed to say up until then I could barely have told you who the PM was.
      (misspent youth, working abroad and believing the indoctrinated ‘never talk about politics in public’)

      However, I am now a bit like a reformed smoker and can barely hide my contempt for anyone who would deny Scotland her independence, given the facts for all to see.

      I’m absolutely no use as an activist as I’m too hot headed but I do a little by displaying info/posters etc in my shop. Hope to do more once the date is called. I keep getting told that I will lose customers – you know what? I tell them iScot is far more important than me and my shop besides it’s 50/50 is it not?

      Sorry for rant.

    337. Tinto Chiel says:

      It’s difficult running a business, Shinty, and biting your tongue when some cuss-stumer (see wot I done there?) starts, “See yon Sturgeoning”. There’s a shop in my town I go into every week and the young Indy guy tells me of his confrontations with the miserable old gits/customers who make anti-Indy remarks. He’s lost custom but finds it very hard to let some remarks pass.

      I’m not great doing formal canvassing ‘cos I often forget the right rejoinder when some frother starts shouting at me on the doorstep but I do try to control my temper. I’m better doing the soft-sell in everyday conversations, planting little seeds of doubt or suggesting people look at different news sources. Above all, I never miss the chance to scoff gently at the State Propagandist and its distortions. My Yes badge often starts off conversations too, and I try to wear it most days.

      I doubt very much you would lose much custom by displaying a few posters but keep yon chain-saw under lock and key, eh?


      You’ll be busy when Indyref2 kicks off, I think.

      Onwards, vile seps!

    338. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Alex Clark

      good luck with the giving up smoking and drinking on the same day!

      I gave up the tar 27 years ago – and don’t regret it one bit. Just be aware for the first 6 months you will get every cold/chest infection going.

      And since I need to loose weight – think i’ll join you and raise a non alco brew to us both – at least for a couple of months, and see how it goes.

      Cheerie to all. Peace and love to Smallaxe.

    339. Shinty says:

      keep yon chain-saw under lock and key, eh?

      Lol. nae worries, keep that strictly for 2 family members!

    340. Alex Clark says:

      @Daisy Walker

      Thanks for the good wishes Daisy but sad to say have failed miserably already. Halved the number of fags though and no booze whatsoever yesterday which for a Saturday is rare 🙂

      Decided to have a beer today but still have stuck to half the fags. After this long enjoying both, the shock of abstinence could be enough to do me in so I’ll take it easy for now and wean myself off gradually lol.

    341. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      Soo-perb. Well done indeed.

    342. William Wallace says:

      @ Alex

      !!Congrats!! A colossal achievement 😉

      Eh stayed aff the bevvy last night tae (also a rarity on a Saturday for me). Temptation to hae ane the night is strong mind. (I am currently wrestling wi meh conscience). I’ve been aff the smokes since May but, I am still vaping. Doon tae 3mg fae a starting point o 12 so hoping to ditch the vape by new year.

      Keep up the good work 🙂

    343. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      I posted two comments on ‘off-topic’ around ten past ten and neither of them have appeared. After those two, I commented on the main page at 10:33pm and it appeared immediately.

      So, I’m goona repaste the SECOND comment I did but will change all the e’s to o’s, just furra laugh, iye? Here it is…

      Just noticod – wo’ro gotting closo to a landmark in off-topic. I wondor who will got commont #30,000?

    344. Alex Clark says:

      Cheers all, here’s what I feel like though and no joking 🙂

    345. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Woll, that workod. I think I’ll try the samo with tho first commont that didn’t appoar.

      Horo it is…

      Hi Alox.

      If you’ro trying to cut down on fags, chock this out.

      (Pasto that link into your browsor’s addross bar but chango the CAPITAL O’s to lowor caso lottors – the lottor that ‘odgo’ starts and onds with.)

      I startod with o-cigs in 2009, after my mini strokos. You can got into the vaping habit, cut down on fags, thon sook out cheapor alternativos to VIP (Poundland, B&M Bargains and so on).

      I’m still smoking but around 10% of what I was smoking before vaping.

      I beliovo Paula Roso has boon vaping for a woo whilio. I understand thoro’s a shop in Brochin.

    346. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      FFS, seeing Joe 90 after all these years would be enough to get me back on the fags pronto, but I managed to resist.

      Just as well ahm pished right enough!

      FWIW, here is my advice – dinna listen tae embdy’s advice. If ye’re ready tae dae it, amen. If no, amen tae that too.

      In any event, more power to ye brother.

    347. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      ‘I beliovo Paula Roso has boon vaping for a woo whilio. I understand thoro’s a shop in Brochin.’


      Whit’s happenin man?

      It’s all fascinating and strangely poetic, but…why?


    348. William Wallace says:

      On the subject o vaping, eh make ah meh ain vape juice. Got quite a lot o flavours left ower at varying strengths tae that were no meh cup o tea.

      If anybody wants them, let me ken. Same if you want specific flavours at cost as opposed to paying premium prices fae the vape shops.

      Can pretty much make any flavour.

    349. Alex Clark says:


      Are you tripping on yer wie tae Lidls 🙂

    350. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      It would appoar, from provios oxporioncos, that Wordpross, on a Sunday ovoning, doos not liko my commonts if thoy contain too many of tho fifth lottor of the alphabot. (I lost a couplo of commonts a couplo of wooks ago, montioning tho ovont at Douglas Community Contro.)

      I now know what to do on a Sunday ovoning. FIXOD!

      PS: I noticod that an aborront fifth lottor scrapod through in my pasting of tho first commont that dissapoarod. Maybo ono’s the limit…

    351. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alox.

      Soo my commont at 10:59, this vory ovoning, thon road on…

    352. William Wallace says:

      /Pours drink 🙂

      Good Conscience 0 Addictive personality 1 😉

    353. William Wallace says:


      Are you saying that wordpress has took ah the E’s? Or that you’ve took ah the mushrooms? 🙂

    354. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Nah, Alox.

      It sooms, on Sunday ovonings, my commonts which contain moro than ono incidont of tho fifth lottor of tho alphabot, just dissapoar into tho othor so I’vo dovisod this workaround.

    355. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      BTW: the main pago is ok – my commonts appoar immodiatoly aftor a pago rofrosh. Good job I’m a laid-back sort of guy; otherwiso I’d bo spitting bullots!

    356. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for Nicola Sturgeon’s ‘scummy party of Uncle Scrooge, Scottish Nazi, wankers hoping to obtain independence (from a normal life), so that Scumland goes out of all the British institutions including the monetary one’.

      Toots and The Maytals – Scare Him

    357. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel.

      E’s may be good elsewhere but not for me last night. Next Sunday evening could be interesting…

    358. Tinto Chiel says:

      CameronB: amazing quotation. Have you got hold of some BBC S______d briefing paper?

      I see you mentioning Bourdieu on the M/T. One of my heiresses had to study him for her degree and asked me to read a couple of her essays on aspects of his theories. This occasioned a short-term increase in my red-wine consumption and an occasional feeling that Bourdieu was causing language to lose all meaning. Of course, I’m not a sociologist…

      BDTT: it’s a strange one right enough. Have you not complained of other peculiar goings-on with WordPress over the last few months?

    359. Cactus says:

      Aweright dare fine Tinto Chiel ~ how do, how be the house?

      Hoose rice always wins.

      Go off topic.

    360. Cactus says:

      Whose turn is it tae start a friendly riot here ra night…

      How’s Monday been at work been today y’all, mon in.

      To William Wallace… ~

      Take yer seats.

      With cheers.


    361. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel.

      I lost a couple of posts a couple of weeks ago – they just disappeared after submission, although when I tried to submit again, I got the “duplicate comment” message. They never appeared. That was a Sunday evening too.

      Onnyhoo, I’m gonna copy my comments before submission, just in case.

      Just picked up this amusing story from an email.

      Trainy McTrainface: Swedish railway keeps Boaty’s legacy alive

    362. Tinto Chiel says:

      Hi, Cactus, doing fine at the mo, thanks.

      If you’re out on the randan tonight, don’t forget your Crombie and gloves combo.

      May The Force be with you.

    363. Tinto Chiel says:

      BDTT: a few days ago I tried a comment on here with a link to a YouTube clip. Nothing new in that of course but it disappeared, so fearing hammers, I tried writing it again. Nothing, so tried a refresh twice, to no avail. Most unusual.

      Only worked when I cut and pasted a Word document into the field.

      *dons crash helmet*

    364. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel.

      That’s an interesting comment. As I’m copying my comments before submission, I could copy, then delete the contents of the comment box, then paste what I’ve copied.

      I think I’ll try that with this comment to see what happens.

    365. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tinto Chiel.

      Not much difference. It took a usual “back”, then four “reloads” for my previous comment to appear.

    366. Cactus says:

      This place is very moreish, ahm away tae the shops TC.



    367. Tinto Chiel says:

      Could be the curse of Off Topic, Brian.

      Look what happened to DMH’s computer after his Braw’n’Bawdy Ballad, after all.

      The Union never sleeps…

    368. Cactus says:

      Main thread is shaping up nicely for this evenings conversations.

      Can you dig it.

      Aye can 🙂


    369. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      You’re right, Tinto

      Something very odd about my computer going down. Went onto another computer and went into an older email address (the one I am now using)on which some stuff still comes through and found a message to say that my dalinlongart account had been taken down at 5.28 am on Monday 23rd of October. No matter what I do, and I’ve had professional assistance I cannot get it up again or even change my password.

      Odd as well was that account which I abandoned because suddenly nobody could do reply to me. Had somebody look at that last week when I started trying to use it and found extra letters inserted into my reply function. Now sorted – but for how long. (I had been warned by Yahoo that my account was compromised).

      All interesting stuff.

    370. Tinto Chiel says:

      That is a very strange set of circumstances, Dave.

      Maybe your articulate letters to The National have upset someone, along with your campaigning work.

      Vile sep, soanyouurr.


    371. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      I was paraphrasing something I read on the Rev’s twitter. Zoooom!

      I also see Douglas Murray getting punted as a reliable commentator on the future of European culture. The thing is, Murray is a neo-conservative Islamophobe, plain and simple. Apparently he hasn’t learned how to embrace difference and thinks European culture needs saving from brown skinned people, Muslims in particular.

      A Conceptual Framework Regarding the Multicultural Education Competencies of Teachers

      ABSTRACT: While the traditional goal of education is to ensure students’ socialization by getting them to accept existing ideologies, rules and practices in a country or society, the ultimate goal of multicultural education is to contribute to the establishment, application and maintenance of social justice and equality and thus ensure a social transformation. This perspective requires a drastic change in education system and curriculum. Moreover, the competencies teachers need to possess naturally differ in this paradigm and it becomes necessary to train teachers and teacher candidates in line with this understanding. The purpose of this study is to form a conceptual framework for critical multicultural education competencies that must be possessed by teachers that will work in multicultural environments. In this literature-based study aiming to establish the cultural competencies of teachers, three dimensions – each with 4 sub-dimensions – were determined and a conceptual framework was formed based on critical multicultural education theory, critical theory and critical race theories.

      Exploring models of Education: Critical Multiculturalism

      Towards a definition and an understanding of its ideas

      In some ways Critical multiculturalism is leaning towards the original idea of popularist education as a tool of emancipation for the economically downtrodden, but it goes much further, is much wider in scope and is rooted in critical theory. Critical multiculturalism is an enabling form of education that instils in its students the ability to bring about social change, it has been described by Neoliberal thinkers as a ‘Political education’ because it exposes issues relating to why students are in the economic situation they in, why streaming exists, in effect it exposes the mechanisms of inequality to those who are themselves victims of inequality.

      Dialogic Multicultural Education Theory and Praxis: Dialogue and the Problems of Multicultural Education in a Pluralistic Society

      The purpose of this theoretical article is to highlight the role that dialogic pedagogy can play in critical multicultural education for pre-service teachers. The article starts by discussing the problematic that critical multicultural education poses in a democratic society that claims freedom of speech and freedom of expression as a basic tenet of democracy. Through investigating research findings in the field of critical multicultural education in higher education, the author argues that many of the educational approaches – including the ones that claim dialogue to be their main instructional tool – could be described as undemocratic, and thus have done more harm than good for the multicultural objectives. On the other hand, the author argues that dialogic pedagogy could be a better approach for critical multicultural education as it promises many opportunities for learning that do not violate the students’ rights of freedom of expression and freedom of association. Throughout this article, the author tries to clarify the difference between dialogic pedagogy and other conceptualizations of dialogue in critical multicultural education arguing for the better suitability of dialogic pedagogy for providing a safer learning environment that encompasses differing and at times conflicting voices.

    372. CameronB Brodie says:

      What is multiculturalism though?

      Multiculturalism: A Critical Introduction,
      Michael Murphy takes on the challenge of providing a concise critical introduction to multiculturalism — a subject whose terrain and terminologies remain analytically confused, culturally entangled, and deeply contested (Hall, Ponzanesi). Indeed, the proliferation of diverse and contradictory uses of the concept in academic, policy, and mass media discourses, especially since 9/11, confirm what postcolonial, literary, and critical race theorists have argued about “multiculturalism” for fifteen years: that it has become a “conceptual grab bag” with “elastic boundaries” and “a corresponding dilution of content” (Mills 2007, p. 89), a “floating” or “empty signifier” onto which “a range of groups project their fears and hopes” (Bhabha, p. 31; Gunew, p. 19), “an incoherent concept, which cannot be meaningfully either affirmed or rejected” (Fish, p. 78; quoted in Murphy, p. 12)….

      Multicultural Education is Dead

      Paper presented at the British Educational Research Association Annual Conference, The Queen’s University of Belfast, August 27th – 30th 1998
      This paper argues that the whole issue of multicultural education has ceased to exist in any meaningful or influential form. By taking an outrageously unprovable statement as its title, it is intended that the contentious nature of the debate will illustrate the way in which the subject has come to mean less and less on national, local and theoretical platforms. During the 1980s it was still possible to outline a general pattern of beliefs and research which could be seen to constitute the progression of the issue at the time, despite the fact that there were obvious and considerable differences over the way in which it was developing.

      This paper argues that during the 1990s the issue has become ideologically fragmented and all but lost in the drive towards sponsorship funding, inspection, SATs, accountability and effective management systems, leading to a position where, for some teachers, multicultural education simply has no part to play in the provision they organise for the children (or beginning teachers) in their care. The structure of the paper follows that of an obituary, and whilst the narrative style may be considered playful, it is intended to provoke serious discussion about the lack of impact generated by equality issues as we approach the millennium.

      Failure to Operationalize: Investing in Critical Multicultural Art Education

      ….Educators must be cognizant of the type of society in which they are educating students (Hicks, 1990). This consciousness enables educators to utilize relevant pedagogical strategies that attend to the specific needs of the society. Lewis, O’Connor, and Mueller (2009) assert that race and racism are “central to conversations about the role of education in promoting social justice as well as in promoting more just educational outcomes and experiences” (p. 249). It is not effective to claim to be race neutral in teaching. Stoll (2014) writes, “Teachers and administrators are not only influenced by cultural assumptions regarding race but often perpetuate these assumptions deliberate or not” (p. 691). For this reason, multicultural education pedagogy, curriculum and praxis are even more imperative now than it was 70 years ago at its inception.

    373. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for Douglas Murray.

      The Breeders – I Just Want To Get Along

    374. Tinto Chiel says:

      Cameron: so many zoomers, so little time.

      Just back from Bosnia, which had a stable multi-cultural society for hundreds of years before fascists tried to wipe out the Muslim population.

      Think Sarajevo, think Mostar.

      Wicked and shameful.

    375. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      Unfortunately, cultural intolerance is kind of hard-wired into the BritNat psyche.

      3 Mustaphas 3 – Turisticka Pjesma

    376. CameronB Brodie says:

      But this is Wings Over Scotland, why am I banging on about racism? Well, an understanding of the processes involved in race-based social marginalisation, can be transferred to inform an understanding of most forms of social exclusion. Anyhoo, are Scots not treated as ‘Children of Ham’ by their Westminster masters?

      Critical Race Theory, Race Equity, and Public Health: Toward Antiracism Praxis


      Racial scholars argue that racism produces rates of morbidity, mortality, and overall well-being that vary depending on socially assigned race. Eliminating racism is therefore central to achieving health equity, but this requires new paradigms that are responsive to structural racism’s contemporary influence on health, health inequities, and research.

      Critical Race Theory is an emerging transdisciplinary, race-equity methodology that originated in legal studies and is grounded in social justice. Critical Race Theory’s tools for conducting research and practice are intended to elucidate contemporary racial phenomena, expand the vocabulary with which to discuss complex racial concepts, and challenge racial hierarchies.

      We introduce Critical Race Theory to the public health community, highlight key Critical Race Theory characteristics (race consciousness, emphases on contemporary societal dynamics and socially marginalized groups, and praxis between research and practice) and describe Critical Race Theory’s contribution to a study on racism and HIV testing among African Americans.

      Critical Race Theory Meets Social Science

      Social science research offers critical race theory (CRT) scholars a useful
      methodology to advance core CRT claims. Among other things, social sci-
      ence can provide CRT with data and theoretical frameworks to support key empirical claims. Social psychology and sociology in particular can help to explain how race constructs key aspects of social experience—for example, the role of race in suspicion of African Americans as potentially criminal and the use of excessive force by law enforcement. At the same time, a collaboration between CRT and social science risks undermining CRT critiques of objectivity and neutrality and potentially limits the theory’s ability to combat structural forms of racial inequality. CRT scholars can mitigate these risks by choosing social science methods carefully and by recognizing that social science is only one among several modes of knowledge production.


      Abstract. This paper begins with an overview of critical race theory tenets, which in turn will be followed by an overview of postmodernism. These bodies of knowledge consist of an array of ideologies; but for the purpose of this article only the fundamentals of each will be discussed. Thereafter, an integration of these two contemporary areas of thought will demonstrate the constructive linkage of critical race theory and postmodern theory. The integration’s that follow will emphasize how a collaboration of critical race theory tenets and postmodern thought can contribute to a successful, and more importantly improved, analysis of the social constructions of race, class, and gender. In addition, the intersectional analysis presented will demonstrate a more informative and better understanding of the subtleties of blatant and more
      hidden forms of race, class, and gender.

    377. CameronB Brodie says:

      So if the techniques and processes of colonialism occurred at home, as well as in the colonies, that suggest the history of Britain may also have been colonised by imperialist interests. Has British history really been constructed in a fashion that perpetuates structures of social domination and exploitation? Most definitely yes, which means British nationalism is a mode of colonial imperialism.

      What is Intellectual History?
      Distilled ‘spirit of the age’ or a branch of sociology? Great men and their thoughts – with a lucky dip for culture vultures – or elite ideas whose time had come? Five historians discuss ground rules for the study of intellectual history.

      Cultural Theory

      VI. Critical Race/Ethnicity Theories

      The breakdown of notions of American exceptionalism and class consensus analyzed in Section IV, was driven in large part by social movements of the 1960s. Those movements also set in motion a profound rethinking and rewriting of ethnicity, race, gender, sexuality and other modalities of “difference” that further challenged monolithic conceptions of Americanness. This process was fueled by the rise of ethnic and women’s studies within and outside AS. And the new scholarly attention paid to previously marginalized subjects of history deeply reshaped theories and methods of study.

      Islamophobia, Racism and Critical Race Theory

      Critical race theory (CRT) in today’s multi-cultural society seems somewhat of a difficult concept to appreciate. The notion that racism and inequality exists regardless of any group formation advocating racism in the 21st century illustrates race and inequality play a significant role in western society. Many critical race theorists in the field suggest that racism transcends across white elites and working class white individuals, regardless of any motivations proposed at government policy level and local level to eradicate racism becomes inept and difficult to implement. Studies by critical race theorists such as Saeed (2007) have argued that the fundamental assumptions made about an unjust and unequal society are dominated by White Eurocentric’s. Colour blindness within a multicultural society where Black Minority Ethnic (BME) individuals are targeted for their religious ethical and moral beliefs, with the growing tensions of Islamaphobia.

      Today the general impression of Islam in the West is one that of a sectarian and fundamentalist religion. A religion which oppresses women, advocates values which are outdated and medieval and supports violence. However, on the contrary, in Islam, there is no concept of ‘Fundamentalism’ BME individuals struggle to be accepted throughout life and are undermined in every aspect of their life. Critical race theorists believe that race should occupy the focal positioning within legal, educational or social policy, Gilborn (2006). This paper will begin with the concept that critical race theorist purport with the view that macro and micro aggressions exist within society are ignored regardless of the macro and micro level policy implementation at government and local level. The paper will explore, the belief that Black Minority Ethnic individuals are discriminated against regardless of a white individuals desire not to be racist unconsciously in essence signifies the understanding that critical race theory constructs are embedded in society and racism is at the heart of western society and culture. Finally, the paper will demonstrate how to build good relationships between people in society in general and develop a better understanding of the Islamic society in the west.

    378. Tinto Chiel says:

      Don’t know where you get these clips from, Cameron, but that one made me laugh.

      I should add all the mosques seem whole and functioning in Mostar, and the churches, and I think a synagogue is being built too.

      Amid all this stuff about who’s recognising Catalonia, it should be remembered it was Germany who broke EU ranks and pushed for the recognition of Croatia during the break-up of the FYR. The UK and France weren’t keen because they thought it would provoke Serbia and we all know what happened after that. It seems recognition doesn’t really spring from treaties or fine declarations but whatever The Big Boys decide is ok.

      Not really good news for us.

    379. Fred says:

      Anent Nick Nairn, not only YES but also a big YES to Ramsay’s of Carluke for their black pudding which he says is tops!

      Alex Clark, Piaf superb kid!

    380. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Jacob Rees-Mogg wanting to shift ownership of international development aid from being a duty of government to “a matter of private charity”. Such an approach to finance would severely undermine the assessment and strategic co-ordination of aid expenditure, IMHO.

      This ‘man’ is a threat to the global poor. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men….

      Private development assistance: key facts and global estimates

      An incomplete picture of private organisations’ contributions to development

      Unlike ODA, estimating private development assistance presents multiple challenges caused by data gaps and a lack of methodological standardisation for defining private development assistance within and across countries.

      With no comprehensive mechanism for capturing private development assistance, estimates are compiled from a variety of sources including the OECD’s ‘net private grants’ data, national sources for particular countries and indexes such as those compiled by the Center for Global Prosperity.

      In addition to limitations in measuring global private development assistance, disaggregated data is also lacking thus making it difficult to analyse how, when, where, by who and on what this type of resource is spent. Disaggregated data by source and by expenditure in recipient countries, including at sub-national level and by sector, is not systematically available. Shortcomings with the data mean that the estimates we have are not comprehensive enough to be precise figures. This lack of accurate data presents a significant constraint on our ability to understand and evaluate the impact, comparative strengths and role that private development assistance actors should play in the Sustainable Development Goals era.

      Development needs a holistic approach

      International Development Cooperation

      International development cooperation is an integral part of Iceland’s foreign policy. The Strategy for International Development Cooperation focuses on the promotion of human rights and gender equality, peace and security, as well as the fight against poverty, social injustice, disparity in living conditions and hunger. It furthermore attempts to ensure internal coherence in Iceland’s foreign policy with regards to global economic, environmental and security matters.

      On October 1, 2008, Act no. 121/2008 on Iceland´s International Development Cooperation, entered into force, replacing the former law on Iceland´s bilateral development assistance dating since 1981. The new Act forms the basis for Iceland´s international development cooperation. It introduces a holistic approach to development cooperation, covering all aspects of Icelandic Official Development Aid (ODA), as opposed to the former law which only dealt with bilateral development cooperation. On 18 December 2015 an Act was passed in Parliament , amending the laws from 2008. One of the main changes includes the merger of the Icelandic International Development Agency (ICEIDA) into the Foreign Ministry.

    381. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jacob Rees-Mogg’s far-right politics lack any sense of humanity or compassion for the less fortunate. Certainly not a “One Nation” Tory, more a “New Right” evangelist, IMHO. Mind you, I suppose you could get away with suggesting JRM is simply being practical in the face of the oncoming economic tsunami called Brexit. Then again, perhaps this was a planned consequence of Brexit, as the New Right are ideological extremists.

      The IFS Green Budget: February 2012

      7.2 UK ODA spending
      The decision to protect aid spending from the cuts being made to other budgets has created some controversy and raised the question of why development assistance should be valued above domestic expenditures.

      The aims set out by the previous government state that ‘It is our duty to care about other people, in particular those less well off than ourselves. We all have a moral duty to reach out to the poor and needy’.2 In recent years, this rationale has been augmented with the notion that poverty in the developing world is a direct threat to the UK’s interests, even in the face of fiscal austerity.3 David Cameron has stated: ‘I don’t believe it would be right to ignore the difference we can make, turn inwards solely to our own problems and effectively balance our books while breaking our promises to the world’s poorest’.4 In their 2010 election manifestos, all three main UK political parties included a pledge to meet the 0.7% target by 2013 at the latest. At present, there is a bill going through
      Parliament that would make meeting the target a statutory requirement.

      Changing world, changing aid: Where international development needs to go next

      The 0.7% ODA/GNI target – a history

      In 1970, The 0.7% ODA/GNI target was first agreed and has been repeatedly re-endorsed at the highest level at international aid and development conferences:

      in 2005, the 15 countries that were members of the European Union by 2004 agreed to reach the target by 2015

      the 0.7% target served as a reference for 2005 political commitments to increase ODA from the EU, the G8 Gleneagles Summit and the UN World Summit

    382. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Fallon’s resignation

      Julia Hartley-Brewer has tweeted that she doesn’t think it was her “knee episode” that prompted the resignation. Maybe more to come out (or hide)

    383. Alex Clark says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Off Topic is of course for stuff that is O/T much of what your posting these days here though in my view is far too serious a read for what was at the outset a place for a bit of music and banter.

      I’ll be honest and say I skip all that intellectual stuff that you post. You used to be up for a bit of a laugh and some music yourself. I really don’t want to upset you so hope your cool with that.

      Please just give us a good tune we could enjoy as the “papers” really do my head in and are too much to handle. Simply because they are too serious and to be honest I’m in over my neck with the serious stuff.

      I’d hope we can keep O/T a bit more lighthearted and funky!

    384. CameronB Brodie says:

      Your wish is my command mate, though I’ll still stick the odd paper up when I think it helps shed light. 😉

      Sly & The Family Stone – Everyday People

    385. Cactus says:

      Fallon down.

      Wings up.

      Good day.


    386. Alex Clark says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Great choice, that’s ma man 🙂

    387. Alex Clark says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      I reckon that’s a winner in the “most unusual video” category ever posted on Wings.

    388. Tinto Chiel says:

      A bit down-beat, Alex, I know, but I’m in an autumnal mood.

      Will try to pep things up a bit later.

      Lovely frosty morning here. It’s goldfinches and redpolls a gogo at Tinto Towers.

    389. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not trying to wind you up Alex, honest. 🙂

      Positive Psychology Center
      Video Lectures by Leading Scholars


    390. Tinto Chiel says:

      Lyrics rather amusing at times: aka Song of The Tory Party.

      Just some seasonal fun, muckers.

    391. Tinto Chiel says:

      More highly dubious stuff:

      I can’t help it.

    392. Tinto Chiel says:

      You know, some girls can dance, and some just can’t:

    393. Alex Clark says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      I didn’t even open your Psychology video as couldn’t be aserd but the short film Identity was excellent.

      It wasn’t hard to guess the end result but it was very well done. That must make you the leader in the “weird video” stakes on Off Topic LOL.

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alex Clark
      Horses for courses Alex. The Psychology link is packed with tonnes of resources for better personal understanding and empowerment. I knew it wouldn’t be for everyone so the short vid was more general. Glad you checked it out.

    395. Tinto Chiel says:

      If you don’t start twitching to this you may be dead already but don’t know it.

    396. Jock Scot says:

      Hi Alex. I heard there may be some floor space available after the Ferry jolly. If so, can I book a spot.

    397. William Wallace says:

      Open the door
      Get on the floor


    398. William Wallace says:

      There is “No Limit” 😉

    399. William Wallace says:

      Your love will set me free!!!

      One of the best tunes ever made and so relevant even today.

      Out of all the vinyl I’ve kept this one is in pristine condition and will never be sold.

      Come on and dance with me 😉

    400. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m sorry Alex.

      @ Blair McDougall
      You really are a plank.

      A Discursive-Semiotic Approach to Translating Cultural Aspects in Persuasive Advertisements



      Norman Fairclough (1992: 65) states that:

      Discursive practice …contributes to reproducing society (social identities, social relationships, systems of knowledge and belief) as it is, yet also contributes to transforming society.

      This statement sums up the role of discourse analysis in the translation of cultural aspects in persuasive advertisements. It can be inferred that society, as defined by Fairclough, points to cultural identity. Discursive practice, like a persuasive advertisement, changes or manipulates the receivers in a society or culture to alter their behaviour or “transform society”

    401. William Wallace says:

      @ CamB

      Yi just couldnae help yirself 😉 Add a wee tune at the end iy.

      Love ya !

    402. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Drum Club – Alchemy (Phasers On Stun Mix)

    403. William Wallace says:

      That’s a gemme Cam 😉

    404. William Wallace says:

      Did eh ever tell ya 🙂
      U make me feel so good 😉

    405. William Wallace says:

      FREEDOM 😉

      We’ve got to be free 🙂

    406. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope I’m getting there William. 😉

    407. William Wallace says:

      Yir daein a fine joab Cam 😉

    408. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the yoonion was a relationship.

      Funky Boogie Brothers – I Believe

    409. William Wallace says:

      Mebbe something good is gonna happen 😉

      Sorry aboot the https shite Stu;)

    410. William Wallace says:

      Eftir ah !

      Ah yir trehin tae dae is open wir mind iy 😉

    411. William Wallace says:

      The gift o the thistle 😉–prfnuJ8

      Sons and daughters of Scotland 🙂

      1320 and ah that

      Good Night 😉

      Love to all Scotland 😉

    412. William Wallace says:

      Jist afore eh go

      afore meh time is dane

      Meh country is a thing o beauty

      and Scotland is her name

      Good night!

    413. Tinto Chiel says:

      Right, I’ve consulted Rock’s Monitoring Daybook and I left this here 93 days ago, but it cheers me up so here it is again. It was the 70s, I was called Samantha Smoothcalf and mascara was my world:

      If you don’t like it, whit ye gonnae dae aboot it? (he Who’d).

    414. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark & CamB –

      Here’s one for you two to have a Friday Night boogie to –

      The Black Keys, ‘Lonely Boy’

    415. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      Excellent stuff there.

      First time for me.


    416. Tinto Chiel says:

      The video matches the gently optimistic/nostalgic music pretty well, Ian, I think, but reminding me too how short our own lives are. I think too of the wee kids in our schools and wonder what kind of Scotland they’ll live in.

      As someone else said (DMH?), it’s our job to win independence and our children’s to develop it.

      I know my own kids cannae wait.

      They frighten the hell out of me with their passion, so I’m optimistic, despite the corrupt media we’re surrounded by.

    417. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Back in the day, when I was wearing my DJ hat, this was a single that tickled my fancy around 1983. Of course, because I liked it, it was never a hit.

      The band was called “Care”. Care begat “The Lighting Seeds”.

      Ian Broudie went on to form The Lightning Seeds and here they are performing the same song. It really starts at around 1min 24secs.

    418. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Re. ‘Lonely Boy’. I’m not sure how to take that mate. 😉

      Tinto Chiel
      How to remain optimistic?

      Positive Psychology

      And as it’s Friday what about some old-school?

      HITHOUSE – Jack To The Sound of The Underground

    419. Tinto Chiel says:

      CameronB: sublime. I’m jackin’ already (ooh, matron!).

      As for the long positive thinking clip, will have to muse thereon. I’ve only got so many brain cells at this time of night.

      Wish I was still young and beautiful.


    420. Alex Clark says:

      Some nostalgia for the Weegies and I’m sure others will enjoy it too. Scotland as the second city 1960’s.

    421. Tinto Chiel says:

      Alex: why is wee Phil McCall talking to Fluffy Mundell?

      Is this the start of a horrible zombie movie?

      Don’t think I’ve got the stomach for it…..

    422. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      Cheers mate. Re. the long positive thinking clip. It’s pretty much common sense in everyday language but best to take a look when you have the time. Some very good tips for enabling a healthy disposition, IMHO.

    423. Alex Clark says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Gets better, promise 🙂

    424. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Two tracks hinting at the state of Europe today…

    425. CameronB Brodie says:

      Nice bit of retro tourism there Alex. Just imagine if Scotland had been able to set up an oil fund just a decade or so after that was filmed. We didn’t get the chance though to choose how to make the best use of our natural wealth, Whitehall knew best. The bandits are at it again with these Brexit impact studies.

      HMG is a stranger to accountability when it come to Scottish interests.

    426. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Blair McDougall
      Putting your ill-judged tribal hostility aside for a minute, lets talk about how Scotland should tax itself. You fail to acknowledge that Scotland’s development potential is limited by macro-economic policy set largely to accommodate the micro-economic conditions of ‘another’ region of Britain i.e. the south east.

      Systems can only produce positive results if the environment they operate within allows for positive outcome to occur. Scotland’s potential tax base is undermined by Westminster’s economic policy and Hollyrood’s lack of powers to optimally transform “static structural relationships into dynamic interactions with other viable systems”*.

      Your concern does not appear to be Scotland’s well-being, though I’m pretty sure you’re already aware of that.

      Taxation Principles and Theory
      Determining the mix of taxes

      As each nation has the sovereign right to determine its own tax system, virtually anything can be made the subject of taxation. In R v Barger (1908) 6 CLR 41, Griffith CJ, Barton and O’Connor JJ recognised (at 68):

      The power to tax necessarily involves the power to select the subjects of taxation. In the case of things the differentiation or selection is, in practice, usually made by reference to objective facts or attributes of the subject matter, so that all persons or things possessing those attributes are liable to the tax. The circumstance that goods come from abroad or from a particular foreign country, or that particular processes or persons have been employed in their production, or that they possess certain ingredients, are instances of attributes which have been chosen for the purpose of differentiation.

      Ultimately, each country determines who and what it subjects to tax and the particular attributes of its tax system. Each country inevitably adopts its own mix of taxes designed to suit its particular needs and circumstances. While there are many similarities between tax systems around the world, there are also many differences in the ways that taxes can operate making each country’s tax system unique

      * A Brief Review of Systems Theories and Their Managerial

      Nelly Furtado – Powerless (Say What You Want)

    427. Tinto Chiel says:

      BDTT: top picks. Who’d have thought we would see the fascists in control of an EU state (apart from the UK, of course)?

      *sighs, grinds teeth*

      Comin’ right back at ya with this. Some poetry in Byron Ferrari’s lyrics, before he became a cabaret act…

      I remember that Glasgow clip now Alex. Smallaxe put it on here a few months ago and it’s a beezer, teaker, stoater, what you will, but the technicolour poverty is pretty shocking in one of the richest countries in the world (Scotland, that is).

      I worked in Brigton (Bridgeton to the toffs) as a student in the 70s in the DHSS and was shocked at the housing, poverty and lack of opportunity. The new town of East Kilbride, all bright and shiny, with full employment, was just up the road about 8 miles but it was a different world. That’s when I realised something was rotten in the state of Denmark and we were getting shafted.

      Tinto’s Thought For The Day: Rich People make People Poor.

      Economically illiterate, perhaps, but then I am a mere poet of the purple sage.

      *Doffs heliotrope beret*

      Nawbags wake up, ffs.

    428. Tinto Chiel says:

      Meant to say, Cameron, almost put my hip out robo-dancing to Hithouse but it was worth it. ‘Mawjackedoot.

      I feel better now…

      This is for wee Humpty Go-kart, star of stage and screen, while we’re on the Roxy subject:

      May be my last post. Apparently I’m going to the sales with The Home Secretary this morning.

      It’s been a blast, chinas. Adieu!

    429. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry to here you’ve done yourself a mischief Tinto but I deny any responsibility. I’d have assumed you were mature enough to determination what’s in your own best interest, frankly. 😉

      Ian Brotherhood
      This one made me think of you, 😉

      “SEAGULLS! (Stop It Now)”

    430. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Mature enough…..frankly.”

      That’s a darmed lie, ah tell ye!


    431. Tinto Chiel says:

      That should be 😛

    432. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –


    433. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      My musical offering for tonight. You can clap your hands and sing along with the choruses; a combination of song and rap. Inspired by those medley type singles in the early 80s.
      Ivor Biggun was actually Doc Cox from Nationwide and no, the link isn’t “The Winker* Song (*misprint)”.

      A classic of its genre…

    434. CameronB Brodie says:

      Pharrell Williams – Happy

    435. Alex Clark says:

      Posted on main thread, just doubling up for those that might miss it tonight.

      Wings night out next Saturday night on 11/11 at Jolly’s Hotel Broughty Ferry DD5 2BJ. Meet from around 19:00. Totally informal just drop in.

      All welcome of course and a good place to be if you fancy something a bit different from what usually takes your fancy on a Saturday night.

      Come and meet some of those that you have read posts from whether you agree or disagree with them, most are quite thicked skinned and will take any and all criticism without taking offence. Plenty of good discussion is guaranteed.

      If you plan staying overnight check out first the website at

      Some doubles still available for Saturday night at £59 for two adults, very nice hotel that not long ago had a £1m refurbishment so a bargain. There are plenty of other small hotels and B&B’s in the area so check around.

      Dundee as you all know was the largest YES voting region in Scotland so you can be sure of a friendly welcome, there has been a successful Wings night out here in May 2014 and another is long overdue. Hope you can make it, let’s keep this going.

    436. Paula Rose says:

      Saturday night – it’s rare…

    437. Alex Clark says:

      @Paula Rose

      Aye it’s rare to be alev, is it? braw Dundee banter 🙂

    438. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Paula Rose –

      Did you witness that magnificent moon earlier this evening?


    439. Alex Clark says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I hope it wasn’t Mundell 🙂

    440. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If ye could get a bag ay Skittles tae dae karaoke, it might look a little like this…

      Showaddywaddy, ‘Under The Moon Of Love’ –

    441. Alex Clark says:

      I’m really enjoying myself tonight, first time for ages that I’m having a laugh here on Wings. Let’s hope it’s catching.

    442. Alex Clark says:

      @Paula Rose

      Hah! saw them in a pub in Dundee in 1978. I love Fay Fife LOL

    443. Alex Clark says:

      Feck me that’s nearly 40 years ago. Am I really that old? 🙁 LOL

    444. Paula Rose says:

      I hung out with this band…

    445. Paula Rose says:

      The stars that shone so bright…

    446. Paula Rose says:

      My lovely friend Paul Kavanagh coming to see me next Friday then meeting up with you lot on the Saturday – all giddy with excitement!

    447. William Wallace says:

      Snobbery and Elitism within factions of the independence movement – Does it really exist?

      I have been involved in various protest movements throughout most of my adult life. From placard waving outside Westminster to living on site within various emerging movements alongside direct actions such as occupations and other significant levels of civil disobedience.

      It has always been my preference to be a foot soldier of sorts with occasional ideas from down on the ground relayed to the organisers and leaders within a particular movement.

      During that time, I have witnessed many groups form within groups and develop into a closed circle of sorts which can appear to be entirely non inclusive to those on the outside, looking in.

      I have observed some similarities within certain factions of the independence movement and it is one of the reasons I play dumb within certain groups in order to observe how those like me, are treated. It is far easier to observe group behaviour if everyone thinks you are an idiot at the bottom of the pile.

      I am a scheme boy through and through, I am not an intellectual high brow facilitator or organiser. Just a guy on the ground with the odd idea worth passing up the chain.

      There are times when I think that people like me are not welcome amongst those that think they are leading the movement because I am oary and course and from way down deep at scheme level where we used to eat chewnie aff the grund.

      Perhaps it’s an inferiority complex on my part or a well founded observation. I am not yet decided on the matter.

      I have been writing an article about this very subject lately and it’s overall effects on the individual pursuant of independence. Particularly those that come from the schemes or from less well educated backgrounds.

      Should I publish it or am I way off the mark? Or worse, am I opening up a narrative that may be exploited by those seeking to highlight divisions within the movement? Something I am reluctant to do.

      It’s a proper CamB affair but, without the links?

      What do you think Aff-Topic?

      Your opinion is genuinely valued here.

    448. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi William Wallace.

      I’m not usually up at this time of day but gastrointestinal mutterings had me awake so I thought I’d spend a couple of minutes catching up.

      I would say go for it. There does seem to be an element of “we know better” which must be crushed – like a grape.

      Back to bed…

    449. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Just realised that my comment from 10-15 minutes ago isn’t appearing because it contains the name of the fruit that is used to make wine, which is a banned word with a g in front of it. So I’ve edited and will try again.


      Hi William Wallace.

      I’m not usually up at this time of day but gastrointestinal mutterings had me awake so I thought I’d spend a couple of minutes catching up.

      I would say go for it. There does seem to be an element of “we know better” which must be crushed – like a gr-ape.

      Back to bed…

    450. William Wallace says:

      @ Bri

      I suffer fae the same affliction. Meh wife said ehm eating rennies like penny dainties when eh was echt year ald. She’s dragging me tae the doctors this week eftir a year o trehin. Got this huge lump in meh upper right hand side just under the rib cage.

      Eh’ve been pittin it aff cause ehm scared o the truth iy. Eh think eh might be in a bad wey and the bevvy is daein me nae favours at ah. Eh think that’s why eh am drinking sae much tbh. Scared to face reality.


      Aff tae bed an ah wi a 12 pack o rennies 😉 Good nicht or good morning.

    451. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      I’d certainly be interested in reading your thoughts.

    452. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For those who haven’t seen it – G A Ponsonby’s ‘final’ article, with plenty of familiar names saying their farewells in the comments.

    453. CameronB Brodie says:

      William Wallace
      Go for it mate, that sounds just the ticket.

    454. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s one for Smallaxe.

      Just cause he’s not commenting doesn’t mean he’s no readin’!

      If you see this, hoots brither!

      Marley, Redemption Song (acoustic, very fuzzy sound, but still worth a watch!)

    455. William Wallace says:


      I’ve got roughly eight (almost finished) articles (including the one referenced above) around the issue of independence that I have been writing up these last couple of months and have set up a space for blogging where I intend to publish them.

      I was holding off on publishing on the .com domain I currently own as I really wanted to host on my .scot instead but, I can not seem to find a host that can offer domain privacy with the .scot domain (If anyone knows of one and could let me know soonest, it would be greatly appreciated).

      I also wanted to get a few articles in the bank before kicking it all off so it is not vacant for prolonged periods (I tend to work in bursts then slack off for a while afterwards). I am almost there or thereabouts now.

      Obviously it’s not going to be of a similar quality or standard as Stu, Wee Ginger and the likes blogging efforts but, it is something of a different perspective looking at different areas with regard to independence. It is not intended to emulate what is already being done so well by the aforementioned. It’s just my own wee take on things.

      I’m also hoping it will keep my mind busy and help steer me away from the binge drinking episodes and general buffoonery and mischief making I quite often engage in here on wings and elsewhere. As Petra said recently on one of the main topics, it’s not a good look for international visitors that come on in the early hours of the morning and see me fulfilling the stereotype of the “typical drunken Scot”.

      I’ll get to work over the coming days finalising everything then share a link here or at the Ferry meetup if I make it there.

    456. Fred says:

      As they say at Westminster, “Never mind the moon, get them doon!”

    457. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @WW –

      Good stuff man.

      Very much looking forward to seeing your work.

    458. Alex Clark says:

      @William Wallace

      I look forward to what your writing too and also I hope you can make it to the Ferry. You too Ian.

    459. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alex Clark –

      Hearin’ ye there brither…

      Hopin’ tae make it…


    460. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      C’mon peeps.

      Keep an eh on the older pages, some of them are still active. I’m feelin’ lonely fightin’ aff sensibledave. A bit of help widnae go amiss.

      Check out:-

    461. Lollysmum says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon
      Is sensible Dave still posting? Was talking to him on Twitter 2-3 days ago-didn’t know it was him till he said he used to post on Wings. Got the impression that he wasn’t posting now as his Dad is seriously ill.

      For those going to Jolly’s on Saturday-see you there 🙂

    462. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Lollysmum.

      He’s been posting in the

      page. The latest was 10.25 this morning. I haven’t thought up a response yet.

    463. David says:

      For Tinto Chiel – confession time – it took a couple of days for my brain to work out that you suggested I rename to David Gilmour, due to my wee avatar pic. D’oh! 🙂
      As Jacob Rees-Mogg would say, ‘mea culpa’, if a Tory ever took the blame for anything…

      A David Gilmour – Comfortably numb:

      David is a common name, and unfortunately it is used on the Wings main page by a couple of people who do not seem to share my view that independence is normal. There is another good guy David as well, I believe.

      However, as I have been commenting (infrequently but regularly) on Wings since 2014, I don’t feel the need to change my name. I will let the lesser, non-Indy, Dave’s do that. My pic distinguishes me from the trollish Daves.

      Chewin’ the Fat- Wank Good Guy Sketch:

      David is indeed one of my real names. I am from Paisley. I am not there now, but my current town has a street named after Alexander Fleming. It also has an old tram depot, built using big metal girders imported from Motherwell. Pic:

      Scots helped build the modern world. About time we rebuilt Scotland.

    464. Alex Clark says:


      Yes will see you Saturday, looking forward to it. Are you really sure though of what you might be walking into? 🙂

    465. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nae probs, Dave. I know you’re a Good Guy, but what does that make me? 😛 Shut up at the back!

      So, are you in Brazil at the mo? That would be an interesting story, like Smallaxe in Jamaica.

      Looks like The Buddies will skoosh the Championship, and not before time.

      “About time we rebuilt Scotland.”: amen to that too. I won’t be “comfortably numb” until then, I’m afraid.

      Onwards, vile seps!

    466. Paula Rose says:

      Time for a bit of London culture, enjoy…

    467. Alex Clark says:

      Regarding next Saturday night, just so you know I will be taking care of transport back for anyone that is staying overnight at my place.

      If your driving then you can come early and park your car here as cearc will be doing. If anybody needs details of my address then you will need to contact me directly on the mobile, I’m sure you can get the number through others you know.

      There’s one addition Jock Scott is coming to sing while Cactus plays some tunes LOL.

    468. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Alex.

      Re: live music. You may have a problem there. Wetherspoon’s don’t allow music in their outlets. I understand it’s because they don’t want to pay for PPL and PRS licences but I may be on the wrong track there.

      That’s why I avoided Wetherspoon’s in favour of the Invergowrie Inn for the get-togethers I organised – so we could have the indy/Scottish music videos.

      Of course, if there’s a party at yours, then live music will no’ be a problem. As far as I know, there’s no Wetherspoon’s in Froickheim…

    469. Alex Clark says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Yes I know what Wetherspoons think, I’m one step beyond though 🙂

    470. Paula Rose says:

      I’ll bring my backing band.

    471. Paula Rose says:

      Here’s a rare one for you lot to ponder upon…

    472. Paula Rose says:

      Assuming we’ll be grabbing the part of Jolly’s we grabbed before – have we got a Wings flag we can put in the window to show folk where we are?

    473. Alex Clark says:

      @Paula Rose

      I do but we won’t be doing that, we’re not there to stir it up but to make friends. No point attracting enemies and they do exist.

      I won’t be inviting any hotheads to have a pop at us which is very possible on a Saturday night, Our strength is in our openness and level heads. Confrontation not necessary, lets be ourselves, wear our badges argue our point if we must.

      For now I’m not for rubbing anyone’s nose it, met too many nutcases in my life already and don’t fancy meeting any more.

      Lat’s have a good time, civil to all especially each other LOL

    474. Paula Rose says:

      I only meant in the sense of making sure that our friends could find us – bit of a labyrinth.

    475. Paula Rose says:

      So tempted to stay up and grab the 30001 spot on off-topic but I can’t – away to bed, sleep well my dear friends.

    476. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Another Dundee Band…

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