No child of mine
The concluding episode of STV’s “Road To Referendum” was almost a one-stop repository of some of the most compelling arguments for independence. Not because of anything in the show’s own script, nor even any of the interviews with the Yes camp, but rather the contributions of the Unionist side.
Whether it was Willie Rennie’s cluelessness, Jack McConnell’s revolting attempt to misrepresent the views of a dying international statesman, Michael Kelly’s reference to the Scots as “they” or Jim Murphy’s misplaced arrogant complacency, the programme showcased some of the least attractive aspects of the anti-independence movement.
The ugliest bug at the ball, though, was the UK’s Prime Minister.
We’ve covered this issue several times already, of course. But we never get any less uncomfortable with the No camp’s persistent portrayal of “foreignness” as being some sort of inferior, undesirable state incompatible with being part of one’s family. This site doesn’t think that if your son or daughter moves abroad, they somehow stop being your child, and to us it’s bizarre and bewildering to even suggest it.
But when David Cameron presents being a “foreigner” or a “family member” as an either/or choice, that’s precisely what he’s saying. With his party ever more fervently setting about isolating the UK from our European neighbours – or at the very least bullying them into meek subservience – such talk takes on an even more disquieting tone, especially when it’s echoed enthusiastically by the supposedly “internationalist” Labour wing of the No campaign.
Any movement supported by UKIP, the BNP, the EDL, the National Front and the Orange Order – even if such organisations are publicly snubbed as official members of it – ought to tread extremely carefully over its expressions of borderline-xenophobic nationalism. But even applying the most generous interpretation, like Gordon “British jobs for British workers” Brown before him David Cameron is at the very least playing with matches in a petrol station made of Semtex.
And the more the No camp cranks up the pejorative rhetoric about “foreigners”, the harder it’s going to be to keep attributing those innocent motives to it. Adopting the language of racists is a desperate measure. If it’s happening 15 months out from the vote, it chills our blood to imagine what the Union’s defenders will be resorting to by this time next year.
“Foreigners rather than family…” WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?
Like I said in the “Line goes dead” article.
These are not “caught on camera” moments but well rehearsed statements. I think it is safe to assume great care will have been taken to chose the precise wording.
We need to get this point clarified by the NO campaign. What do they mean? I’m completely stumped.
So Dave, independence will undo history and alter DNA? And this tube got to be PM.
I’d rather be a “foreigner” than a Brit! Now there’s a wee chant to get the Celtic blood flowing. To be honest, I’d rather be a “foreigner” than a member of call me Dave’s family anytime.
It’s beyond lunacy, the Prime Minister of all people using these words. I can’t get my head round it, and can’t get my head around the fact he gets away with it.
I feel infinitely more enriched as a person having moved abroad, becoming a foreigner to my family as Dave would say – if he thinks my current status makes me an inferior person, in general or in the eyes of my family back home, he can suck my fat one.
But, but…some of my best friends are foreigners.
Oh, what a to do? 🙂
I think I`ll call my Canadian cousins and laugh at unionist pricks like David Cameron.
@ Ray
One should know one’s place in life. By your own admission, you should be sitting at the back of the bus. Get moving.
And what do the proud members of that great inclusive, internationalist, brotherly, egalitarian institution known as the Labour party have to say about this blatant racisim?
Oh, I forgot, Margaret Curran has already told us. Apologies.
My mrs is foreign.. and family.
Foreigners rather than family members.
Foreigners rather than family members.
Foreigners RATHER THAN family members.
Says it all, doesn’t it?
Any movement supported by UKIP, the BNP, the EDL, the National Front and the Orange Order – even if such organisations are publicly snubbed as official members of it – ought to tread extremely carefully over its expressions of borderline-xenophobic nationalism.
I really don’t like playing the guilt-by-association card, but if I were, then this would be my play. A comparison of the major groups and parties which support and oppose independence would be illuminating.
I would not have expected any better from DC. What puzzles me, however, is that Scottish unionists seem to be content to be little, second class Brits, rather than to stand on their own feet, with at least a measure of dignity. It is painfully aparent to all, that those pretendy Scotch Brits will never be considered equal to “true Englishmen”. They are tolerated, but not accepted. Poor cousins rather than real brothers and sisters. Are they blind, or in denial? What a shameful position to maintain.
Yep and they accuse us of xenophobia and tribalism.
These rather unsavoury individuals consider Johnny Furriner to be somehow unworthy of family status.
Just stunning.
@Luigi
Ha ragione. Shameful, embarrassing, but they cannot see it for themselves. It’s a form of mass hypnosis.
How I long for the day when Cameron becomes a foreigner to us.
Cameron is one of the many Unionists who like to use the TWTPTS mantra. One of his throw away lines in response to a question from Angus Robertson really got my hackles up:
“If you had an independent Scotland, you wouldn’t be flying planes, you’d be flying by the seat of your pants.”
link to totalpolitics.com
Luigi
What puzzles me, however, is that Scottish unionists seem to be content to be little, second class Brits, rather than to stand on their own feet, with at least a measure of dignity.
Yes, one can witness these unionist types on Twitter of an evening, comforting each other with their assurance that their Britain will remain great, and that the separatists will crawl back under their stones after a crushing moral victory for Britishness in 2014.
Tragic people.
The RtoR trailer showed Cameron saying “The UK would be worse off without Scotland in it”. Theres a man who speaks the truth.
And can you light semtex?
Seeing the picture of Cameron in this article reminded me of Steve Bell’s cartoons :
link to belltoons.co.uk
“And can you light semtex?”
It’s normally ignited with a blasting cap. Overheated Semtex can be highly volatile – as was proved some years ago when some-one hid some behind an oven.
Tom Hogg says:
19 June, 2013 at 3:52 pm
@Luigi
Ha ragione. Shameful, embarrassing, but they cannot see it for themselves. It’s a form of mass hypnosis.
I reckon three centuries of empire will have that effect on the unwary or willfully blind.
Ahhhh, My favourite anti Independence arguement. All your family in England will become foreigners. Lovely.
I don’t have any family in England, they realised it’s a shit-hole and moved to France.
Anyone any idea how many people in Scotland this affects. (Please don’t say none as it’s total ball ox, I mean what percentage of people living in Scotland have family in England) I can only assume the Unionists think it’s a high percent and that’s why they continue to pedal this line.
Also, anyone who has Family in England, do you know if they plan to move back to an independant Scotland? It’d be nice to see someone on the telly hear this Family = Foreigners argument and then simply say,
“Or they could move back. Everyone’s a winner.”
‘foreigners’ you mean like your chums in the Bilderberg Club, Mr Cameron – I’m sure they will be pleased.
Holy crap, I didn’t realise when I left the UK to live abroad that it made me a foreigner or that my family were no longer related to me! Why have I been sending these bloody strangers Christmas and birthday cards, could have saved myself fortunes if I’d known! !
Also, anyone who has Family in England, do you know if they plan to move back to an independent Scotland?
I have family in England, but they couldn’t move back to an independent Scotland, because they’ve never lived here. They’re foreigners.
I’m being told on a well known football forum’s “Independence thread” that…
“They aren’t saying they are less good – they are saying they aren’t one of them. Which will be factually correct.
Do you not recognise amongst many Scots a collective feeling of “Scottishness”?
Where does the phrase “Wha’s like us” come from?”
and
“Your efforts to create divide look unfriendly,weak and trouble making.”
Adopting the language of racists is a desperate measure. If it’s happening 15 months out from the vote, it chills our blood to imagine what the Union’s defenders will be resorting to by this time next year.
This time next year will be especially interesting.
Yes, I feel that a perfect, xenophobic, anti-european storm is brewing down south, as the blue and red tories compete for the attention of UKIP supporters in the run up to the 2015 GE. Some of this will spill over and affect the referendum in 2014. The atmosphere is now becoming quite sinister. The great Labour politicians of the past would have had none of it, but the current lot appear to be embracing it with open arms.
@TomHogg I am familar with the forum you mention. Some right bawbags on it. The same trolls with a different alias every day (it feels like) But good to see him and his alias get shot down.
Can someone explain what happens to my brother then cause he lives in England? Does he become English, British or RestofUKish or is he maybe still Scottish but living in England? You don’t think they’ll harm him, will they?
Ironically the UK needs as many working migrants as it can get its hands on to improve financial position and fund existing pension payments to retired workers. The current xenophobia, as well as being morally bankrupt, is economically stupid.
I see John Swinney has posted pensions position in an independent Scotland
link to yesscotland.net
Hopefully doubters will begin to see that actually many of the bigger risks relate to staying in the UK. In the longer term would be good to see the Scottish state pension scheme run like a proper fund, i.e. an actual asset to help counter future liability to some extent.
@ Yesitis “…is that Scottish unionists seem to be content to be little, second class Brits…” …. I call them Tartan Morris Dancers ….. They may wear tartan clothes, but the steps they dance come from a ‘foreign’ land!
The journeyman
Can someone explain what happens to my brother then cause he lives in England? Does he become English, British or RestofUKish or is he maybe still Scottish but living in England? You don’t think they’ll harm him, will they?
I have relatives in Cheltenham and in (ahem) Coventry; they are treated no differently from my Canadian relatives. They are family and will continue to be so after independence.
I wouldn`t worry about your brother being harmed. Remember, here in Scotland we are being exposed to ridiculous unionist propaganda. The complicit media is trying to kick up a shit-storm, but most people just get on with their lives.
Aye, big Uncle Dave. He loves us all so much…
Many families are ‘held together’ against their will by megalomaniac alpha-males who insist on all the weans knowing their place.
But weans have a nasty habit of growing up.
Cameron as usual says” the Union is better for Scotland” However he did not always say ” And the Uk is better with Scotland in it!”
Which is for sure really the point he is more interested in, he may as well have said ” hell, how will we cope without Scotland WE have so much to lose! ”
Well we knew that!
For once, Scotland could make itself the top priority, to the benefit of our own people,he really does not like that idea!
This bears repeating and thanks to Vronsky for one of the best laughs I’ve had on the site, check the last paragraph:
Vronsky says:
“My son, for example, who went to university in England, I think I’d be uncomfortable with the thought that he’s now a foreigner.”
So, not a foreigner just for the duration of his stay in England, but irretrievably a foreigner? If he comes back to Scotland would Margaret not relent a little, and consider him a recovering foreigner? But what if he relapses, and goes to England again? What if he goes to France, or America, or Mongolia, or all three, and becomes a serial foreigner? Would Margaret, for the sake of her reputation, have to disown him at some point? I mean, people might talk.
I’ve got a confession: I once went to France. With proper medication and the understanding and support of my family I think I’m managing to put my life back together again, although I still have panic attacks at the smell of fresh crepes. We have a little self-help group that meets once a week. We introduce ourselves in the usual way: ‘My name is Vronsky, and I am a foreigner’. But there are always worse off than yourself – one poor chap has been to Wales. We don’t think he’s going to make it.
John Lyons says:
19 June, 2013 at 4:12 pm
Ahhhh, My favourite anti Independence arguement. All your family in England will become foreigners. Lovely.
I don’t have any family in England, they realised it’s a shit-hole and moved to France.
Anyone any idea how many people in Scotland this affects. (Please don’t say none as it’s total ball ox, I mean what percentage of people living in Scotland have family in England) I can only assume the Unionists think it’s a high percent and that’s why they continue to pedal this line.
John, I live in France and it is with great pride that I declare I am etrange (no accents on (QWERTY keyboard) mais je ne suis pas un etranger, even to my French friends.
By the way after I have explained my political position vis-a-vis Scottish Independence to them all of them, without exception think we would be nuts not to vote Yes. My GP is honestly actually thinking about moving to Scotland,after he has investigated Scotland’s NHS’s performance under the SNP following our discussions.
If we ever did vote NO, I would going to have to become a stranger to my friends in France and move to Asia.
“If you had an independent Scotland, you wouldn’t be flying planes, you’d be flying by the seat of your pants.”
I think you’ll find Mr Cameron was referring to certain widely-known personal preferences of Mr Robertson. That’s why it got such a laugh.
“Seeing the picture of Cameron in this article reminded me of Steve Bell’s cartoons :”
It’s weird, that was nearly the caption. I’ve never got Bell’s depiction of him as a condom until I took that pic.
The use of the word ‘foreigner’ as something undesirable might be unpleasant but it’s not being used without reason. It’s trying to appeal to a cohort that actually does exist in Scotland. There are people who don’t like seeing ‘foreigners’ on the streets. They’re appealing to an ignorant section of the population. This is the level they are working on. It’s certainly no accident or slip of the tongue that they repeatedly use it and it’s going to get worse!
“The use of the word ‘foreigner’ as something undesirable might be unpleasant but it’s not being used without reason. It’s trying to appeal to a cohort that actually does exist in Scotland. There are people who don’t like seeing ‘foreigners’ on the streets.”
How many of them were going to vote Yes anyway, though? It seems a high-risk strategy likely to sicken more people on the No side than it wins over from Yes.
I get genuinely confused by both sides of this argument. UK is cause of all our problems and we must split but there is nothing wrong with being a these foreigners when they are apart from us vs melting pot UK is good until we split, then it is bad.
Can this not be summerised that nationalist think that Scotland is the natural state, unionists think that the UK is, and neither party will disabuse the other of this emotionally held belief.
Better to talk about the factual impacts of independence than this.
Haggis hunter 72 says:
19 June, 2013 at 4:21 pm
“Holy crap, I didn’t realise when I left the UK to live abroad that it made me a foreigner or that my family were no longer related to me! Why have I been sending these bloody strangers Christmas and birthday cards, could have saved myself fortunes if I’d known! !”
call yersel a scotsman? IDOIT
Unionist serial domestic abuser threatens “if you jocks dare vote against your betters, you won’t be part of the family any more”
suits me, I’ll even help you build the border fence. Bring your own gun turrets & you’ve a fortnight to pack up your trident missiles or they’re going to be decommissioned.
Excellent article,as usual,and comments some amusing some brilliant,enjoyed the read.Cant add anything except maybe concur.
“call yersel a scotsman? IDOIT ”
and an idiot as well
Roll on a YES vote, I’ve got three sisters I’d happily make foreigners of by sending them South! 🙂
Les Wilson says:
19 June, 2013 at 5:50 pm
“Cameron as usual says” the Union is better for Scotland” However he did not always say ” And the Uk is better with Scotland in it!”Which is for sure really the point he is more interested in, he may as well have said ” hell, how will we cope without Scotland WE have so much to lose! ”Well we knew that!For once, Scotland could make itself the top priority, to the benefit of our own people,he really does not like that idea!”
Anyone take the trouble to put the poor wee sowels fear at rest by telling him weer no gawn onywhare? weel still be richt here , weel jist be payin fir oorsels
we dinnie want him thinkin we dinnie like him ony mair,
dae we?
The monotonous repetition of this theme suggests that the PR gurus think it’s got some mileage. There must be a focus group somewhere that panics at the mere mention of the word ‘foreign’.
I speculate that this is a mistake, and this particular phobia is a purely English phenomenon. First time I recall hearing it was way back at the first referendum, when Jimmy Greaves (remember him?) said on one of those football talking panels that the Scots were about to ‘vote themselves a foreign country’. Struck me as queer back then. It got lost in the background noise of football being queer anyway.
Vronsky says:
“My son, for example, who went to university in England, I think I’d be uncomfortable with the thought that he’s now a foreigner.”So, not a foreigner just for the duration of his stay in England, but irretrievably a foreigner? If he comes back to Scotland would Margaret not relent a little, and consider him a recovering foreigner? But what if he relapses, and goes to England again? What if he goes to France, or America, or Mongolia, or all three, and becomes a serial foreigner? Would Margaret, for the sake of her reputation, have to disown him at some point? I mean, people might talk.I’ve got a confession: I once went to France. With proper medication and the understanding and support of my family I think I’m managing to put my life back together again, although I still have panic attacks at the smell of fresh crepes. We have a little self-help group that meets once a week. We introduce ourselves in the usual way: ‘My name is Vronsky, and I am a foreigner’. But there are always worse off than yourself – one poor chap has been to Wales. We don’t think he’s going to make it.
bwahahhhhhhaaaaa hhaaaa haaa haaa hhaaaaa
GFTB: Better to talk about the factual impacts of independence than this [the PM of the UK is a xenophobe].
I’m sorry, but I find it very worrying that the PM of the country I live in is a xenophobe. My wife is French; hundreds of thousands of people from other countries live in Scotland, working and contributing to its economy/culture. These people are not foreign [in the sense the pro-union campaign use) to me; they simply come from another country. They should appreciate that the Government of the UK apparently thinks that they something ‘unthinkably’ horrible. It’s very unpleasant. I want nothing to do with it.
This is not some fringe party we are talking about; it’s the bloody Prime Minister!
Do you think you’ll need to take your socks off to count those changing from Yes to No?
I don’t want to be in a family where the biggest, most powerful sibling wants to dominate and control my finances.
Phil the Greek. One of those ‘foreigners’
Cameron’s physiog is transmorgryphying into a Halloween Cake.
I have a siater who lives in England and I don’t dislike her because she’s any sort of a foreigner, I dislike her because she’s a numpty!
I have two sisters, both foreigners. One is in San Diego, the other in Italy. Me and my kids (before they all left and got married) wintered in Milan and summered in California. We’re not rich people, it was just pooled pennies. Una margarita, por favor. Ancora di vino. Balboa Park. The Galleria.
Wee Mags Coorin says we shouldn’t entertain that furrin stuff. She’s in the right party. One Labour member told me that Italians had greasy skin so that the plooks would slide off. It might have been a joke, except it was told in anger and contempt. The same Labour person also told me that Venice was terribly smelly, which is true. I asked if he’d noticed anything else about the place. No, he hadn’t.
They don’t notice anything about this place either.
On a flight back to Scotland this morning, I was asked by an Australian if I was Irish.
“No, Scottish,” I replied.
“That’s fine,” came the reply, “We like the Irish, Scots and Welsh, its just the Poms we don’t like!”.
And here was me thinking that Poms meant ‘Brits’. 🙂
He fails to explain what ‘foreigner’ means apart from the obvious; likely having an address in a different country & possibly a different passport.
He is nevertheless implying that foreignness is somehow ‘undesirable’. My wife is foreign and so have been most of my co-workers since I have worked in multiple international companies & countries.
And while there were obvious cultural, language & customs differences, it never once entered my mind that any of those differences were ‘undesirable’.
It smacks of the old Etonian snob’s view that anyone raised outside of the home counties, especially those in a foreign country are somehow & inexplicably ‘inferior’ & therefore ‘undesirable’.
If this isn’t a covert hint at xenophobia, I’m not sure what it is because there’s no other logical conclusion one can draw from his sneering language regarding ‘foreigners’.
But, if he must have it his own way, I shall be delighted to be one post Sep 2014.
Have to agree – never understood the Steve Bell fixation with the Cammie condom but that photo explains all!
Cameron is certifiable. Christ on a Bike, my family has Norwegians, Brazilians, English, Polish and Jockanese in it & I’m voting Yes. My kids are half breeds, even the wife who is from England is part Jewish, her mum’s side is from Oz and she’s a 7th dan in yoga, fluent in French, Italian & Spanish. Foreign my arse, Cameron’s fluent in cuntish, fact.
The words of someone courting the swivel eyed loons. Or joining them…
Next time I can’t sleep, I’ll count how many “foreigners” are in my family.
SS – I am not a Cameron apologist, he is a numpty, a bad PM and wrong on many points, but I am not convinced he is a xenophobe. He will also, most likely, be binned in a couple of years time, so pretty irrelevant to the independance debate.
I believe this is a matter of perspective. For a unionist, you see the country you believe in being cut in two if independance wins. Nationalist see their country being dominated in an another country. Both generally want inclusive, open countries. Both sides can call out the other for being racist, insular or the like. I don’t think this helps the debate.
@CameronB-
‘Do you think you’ll need to take your socks off to count those changing from Yes to No?‘
Probably, but you’ll only have to count the socks.
All we need now is something similar to Chuchill’s famous comment about Ghandi being a ‘half naked Fakir’ when India sought independence!!!
What is so curious (it’s that distorting mirror at the border again) is that we in Scotland are already perceived in some way as ‘foreign’ – so there’s a kind of reciprocal assumption that the reverse must be true. To illustrate what I mean, take this wonderful piece of ‘memsahib’ ponderings from Anne Applebaum in this week’s Spectator:
“….First I flew to Budapest, than to Warsaw. The third and by far the most exotic trip was to Inverness. The flight was surprisingly long, the airport surprisingly deserted. The northern light, bright and sharp at 9pm, was nothing like the soft English dusk. There was hardly a car on the road and hardly any food when we arrived. In fact, there was no food at all. In the Scottish Highlands, very unlike Budapest, nobody serves anything, not even takeaway fish and chips, after 9pm. Finally, a pub waitress furtively conjoured up a ham sandwich and slipped it to us under the bar. This, not the internet, is why I have faith in human nature, even in the harshest cultures, dissidents are always prepared to break the rules – and suffer the consequences- ….”
I’m not prepared to be annoyed by this – though I could be. But as an example of perceived foreigness (and of course inferior foreigness), I find it unmatchably brilliant in its blankly idiotic ignorance.
Cameron – I used to vote for your party, please don’t embarrass me any further.
Xenophobia and racism seems to be part of the British Psyche these days? Well that is the impression I get from the Brit Nat No campaign and the Brit Nat Press and Media. It forces me to conclude that it is impossible to be Scottish and British as I simply refuse to join in this Brit Nat hate fest that we are subjected to on a daily basis. I am also forced to conclude that I am already a to be hated and feared foreigner as I simply refuse to be Bwitish any more!
Totally off topic! I would like to congratulate Justin Rose on his loss of Britishness following his great victory in the US Open Golf. Silly I know but that is the BBC for you and ITV was at it as well. I would also like to congratulate the formerly British Lions Rugby team on becoming the British and Irish Lions following thier loss to Canberra. BBC it at again as was ITV!
Just last week the BBC announced that Prince Harry said all English children should be taught to swim, not sure if that was a direct quote from Harry or not,(it was Mr Shinty who picked it up). Guess that puts the N Irish, Welsh & Scots kids firmly in their place.
Many thanks for printing the Vronsky ‘comment’ I was pishing mysel laughing.
I had a (French) foreigner visit my house a few times in 2011. He’s an MSP now.