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Wings Over Scotland


Fury Of The Phantoms

Posted on March 13, 2017 by

Alert readers will of course be aware that one of this site’s most frequently-recurring themes is “phantom news”, whereby events or unpleasant opinions that newspapers or broadcasters really want to have happened are conveniently brought to life, either by some random nobody on the internet, or an unnamed “source” or “insider”.

(Or in a real emergency, simply asserted with no evidence at all.)

So when Nicola Sturgeon did something today that nearly everyone in the Northern Hemisphere knew she was going to do sometime soon, but wasn’t expecting just yet, there wasn’t time to prepare actual real people with the required quotes.

In the modern media world, though, that isn’t a problem.

It started relatively innocuously in the Herald right after the First Minister’s speech:

The cowardly anonymous quote at least had its TYPE of origin specified: a “senior UK government insider”, which means next to nothing – it could be the Downing Street tealady – but is at least some sort of attribution.

Things went downhill rapidly after that.

Sky News cut to noted indy-hostile reporter Kay Burley, who breathlessly reported that “Sky sources” had told her Nicola Sturgeon had been bounced into her decision by her predecessor and others.

Again, the weasel-worded term is meaningless – Burley’s cab-driver or dog-walker would count as a “Sky source”, but their opinion as an expert on SNP internal politics would be worthless. The allegation was swiftly rubbished not only by Salmond but by other broadcast journalists.

But the bottom of the barrel was yet to be scraped.

The BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg – recently found to have broken the Corporation’s rules on impartiality over a false claim she made about Jeremy Corbyn – couldn’t even be bothered narrowing her “sources” down beyond “the entire population of planet Earth”.

Literally anyone, from Graham Norton to her pet parrot, could have been the supposed author of this alleged claim, with no possible way for anyone to verify or challenge it. The First Minister wasn’t impressed with such anonymous cobblers.

And the plague of ghosts still wasn’t over.

The Scottish Labour branch manager was quick off the mark with a claim to have been subjected to a torrent of “abuse and bile” on Twitter. The only problem was that nobody could actually find any of it.

As we write, several hours after Dugdale made the claim, neither she nor anyone else has been able to provide a single example of the alleged abuse.

It’s going to be a long campaign, folks.

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  1. 13 03 17 19:56

    Fury Of The Phantoms | speymouth

  2. 14 03 17 00:23

    AND SO THE HATE BEGINS… – MUNGUIN'S NEW REPUBLIC

347 to “Fury Of The Phantoms”

  1. c rober says:

    well simple answer , hold them accountable via the powers devolved , no names= no shames

  2. Croompenstein says:

    Aw FFS we’re not going to get that picture of Kez looking like a lost pup crying over her laptop again.. 🙁

  3. peekay says:

    Wee Kez there trying to pretend she’s actually relevant!

  4. One_Scot says:

    The corrupt unionist media played a major part in preventing Scotland from securing a better future. Let’s make sure we don’t fall for their lies and deceit again.

    We may never get a better chance to save Scotland

  5. Bob Mack says:

    A guy who knows an MP’S wee brothers pal ,just told me that his wee brothers first cousins husband has heard from his Ma that Alex Salmon is a Lib Dem in private.

    That is straight from the horses mouth neigh neigh

    You can put your money on it .

    No ?

  6. I have just received an email from Ruth Davidson asking me to support her effort to prevent another referendum and begging for a donation towards that cause. I have replied

    “Why would I want to stop it? And why would you? Are you frightened that the Scottish people will be allowed to DEMOCRATICALLY chose their own future?”

  7. Betty Boop says:

    We’re gonnae need some ear defenders!

  8. Graham says:

    I already cannot read comments sections on this story anymore, and am going to stay away comments sections, period, over the period until the next indyref. The vile bile the English, and Scottish unionists, are throwing at the Scots now is incredible. The English seem to think that the Scots hate them, acting like some jilted lover who cares so little they’ll go on and on and on about how little they care, and then throw the most insane vitriol at the Scots.

    It’s like many of them feel they have now been given free rein to say whatever hateful things they have been thinking forever, and no amount of us telling them that we hate Westminster and not the English is going to change that. So I am just not going to read any more comments sections. It’s too painfully stupid and depressing, ESPECIALLY when the angry people are Scots unionists. Pure Stockholm Syndrome madness and idiocy.

  9. sinky says:

    Michael Crick lying about Europe membership on Channel Four News at. 7.13

  10. HandandShrimp says:

    Fairly certain that Kuenssberg’s source was her neighbour’s cat whom she trusts implicitly…it’s a cool cat.

    Dugdale did get a lot of abuse today…some chap called Jeremy allegedly

    🙂

    The pish begins indeed. However, this time around the pish is easy to spot. We are no longer novices at this.

  11. ROBBO says:

    Sky news may have been wrong footed but quickly regrouped and got NATO head to start the first ‘Scare’ of the campaign by insinuating an Indy Scotland would have to reapply to join the club again. So everyone do not lie asleep at night worrying that until then we shall simply have to fend off all those marauding despots ourselves until the Westminster and/or Donald comes to our rescue. The good news is at least that will be another few £bn’s saved. Keep faith everyone there is going to be a lot more broadsides to come.

  12. jfngw says:

    These are habitants of Sourconia, a reclusive country which only journalists have access to. They are full of opinions but shy individuals.

  13. Ken500 says:

    MSM

    and the’re off. Lying through their teeth as usual. Why don’t they just be quiet.

    What has Scotland got that they need so much?

  14. DerekM says:

    lol i did say this morning it was going to get pretty mental i think that may have been an understatement.

    The funny thing was how quick Eck came out to dismiss it just in case Nicola might think it true and give him a clout around the lug.

    Yoons just do not get it if anybody was pulling strings it was Nicola back in 2013/14.

    The whole big John era leading into Eck was all for the one reason so that one day Nicola would face westminster.

    And now they are just starting to figure out they are dealing with a politician that knows their system inside out and can use it to out smart them every time.

    That today was the political equivalent of a kick in the knackers.

  15. jimnarlene says:

    Day one, jeez?,
    Calm voices and cool heads folks, we’ll weather the storm, and gently persuade our fellow Scots of the benefits of self I determination.

  16. Marco McGinty says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill

    Aye, but we’ve got to remember that she is a hypocrite, and doesn’t believe in democracy.

  17. Tinto Chiel says:

    It’s all Project Fear has but it will be subject to the law of diminishing returns. All those lies, smears and dodgy voxpops will be ultimately counter-productive.

    Hear the words of a Wise Woman:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHUGvde7KU

    And then we win.

    As I said elsewhere, the choice for Scots is simple: live in the light of an independent, progressive and prosperous country or suffer eternal Tory night.

    Once the effects of Brexit are seen, this choice will become polarised and obvious.

  18. Cadogan Enright says:

    Channel 4 ‘journalist’ Michael Crick just ‘reported’ at 7.40 a stream of wholly fictional reasons why it would be ‘impossible’ for an independent Scotland to join of stay Europe according to Sturgeon’s timetable

  19. Maureen says:

    Oops that might have been me. I sent her and Ruth Davidson a link to the song “no,no,no, you don’t love me and i know now.” Sorry!

  20. dakk says:

    Phantom news,Fake news,whatever you call it,the Establishment media promote the Establishment’s agenda using Establishment stooges.

    Truth and balance are of no consequence to them.

    Viva Wings !

  21. jfngw says:

    Sources have revealed that in event of a No vote then EVEL2 will be announced the following day.

  22. farnorthdavie says:

    How did Ms Dugdale have a “first official day of indyref2” at 7:15am?!!

  23. Croompenstein says:

    Is that a silhouette of Gorgeous George with his fedora and the big red eyes.. Get a load of this trumpet..

    https://twitter.com/garrysb/status/841278646606286849

  24. Mike says:

    I feel I have been personally abused over and over by both the BBC and Sky News today.
    My TV was almost subject to violent physical trauma as report after report after report strangled the truth and gave voice to everything from spin waffle wishful thinking disinformation misinformation propaganda and bare faced wilful lying.
    I have now vowed to get any and all news regarding Indyref 2 via RT Al Jezeera or online.
    I stopped reading print media in 2012. I haven’t purchased or picked up a single printed tabloid rag since.
    Fuck you UK media Just Fuck you.

  25. Ian McCubbin says:

    And so it continues lies from the press and bettertogeher 2 will and have on BBC Scotland news given theor tuppence worth.
    Fluffy Mundell outraged but good on Glenn Campbell getting him to agree a 2nd Independence referendum would not be blocked.
    They know they cannot or calls for UDI would follow.

  26. Training Day says:

    Does Dugdale think party politics are not divisive? If they are, should we eschew them? Maybe ban football as it’s too divisive? Or how about marmite?

  27. jfngw says:

    Not interested in opinion polls ran by media companies regarding whether there should be a referendum. These was a much larger one in 2016 and it returned a majority of MSP’s that support one.

    The majority of people in Scotland voted for parties that didn’t want an EU referendum but we still had one.

  28. Robert Louis says:

    Michael Crick of Channel 4 news should hang his head in shame. Tonight on Channel 4 news, he had a little tirade on camera, in which he uttered the biggest pack of demonstrable lies we have heard since the famous Nick Robinson (BBC) lying incident in 2014.

    In his rant, he stated Scotland would;

    1. Need to join the end of the Queue

    2. Would be forced to use the Euro.

    3. Would have its membership opposed by Spain,

    Amongst many others.

    For the record Michael Crick of Channel 4 news, all three listed above are simply not true, and as a political reporter, I do not for one second think you do not know they are completely untrue. So, either you are utterly incompetent in your job (for not knowing they are untrue) or you are a liar.

    Which is it??

    Just the same old LIES we heard in 2014 yet again.

    Just to address those points;

    1. Their is no ‘queue’ to join the EU. Countries join in any order once they meet necessary criteria. Scotland already complies with almost every single one of them, as it has been in the EU for over forty years.

    2. NO country can be forced to join the Euro. To join the Euro, a country must first join the EU exchange rate mechanism for two years, then meet key economic convergence criteria, before they can even be considered for the Euro. To suggest an independent Scotland would be forced to use the Euro is not only a complete lie, it is actually just stupid.

    3. The ruling party of Spain only this week yet again stated that it would not oppose an independent Scotland in the EU. They also stated that they view the matter of Catalonia as completely different to that of Scotland. This was widely reported this week within the UK and across the EU. For somebody like Michael crick of Channel 4 news to state this bare faced lie again, is shameful.

    LINK http://wingsoverscotland.com/thats-that-one-sorted-then/

  29. Donald MacKenzie says:

    Does anyone know how to contact Global (owners of Classic FM etc,) to complain that its news bulletins are telling us that in 2014, “nearly two-thirds” of voters voted No?

    When I was in school, two-thirds = 66% NOT 55%

    The spin has started.

    I can’t find a phone number anywhere.

  30. Willie John says:

    jfngw @ 7:28pm.

    Not EVEL2 – it will be EVAL (English Votes All Laws)!

  31. Cactus says:

    Aye, they’re all lining up against Scotland on LBC radio tish now with Farage.

    The recurring theme is that Nicola (Scotland) “hate the English!”

    WRONG. It’s your government that we all loathe. End of. Period.

    I bet they couldn’t give one example to back up their claims.

    The fury unleashed!

  32. harry mcaye says:

    Sources say that I’m a wonderful lover with a huge willy.

    Sources don’t half talk a load of shite.

  33. jfngw says:

    Why is it that when K. Dugdale is giving an interview I feel she is pitching it more at my 3 year old grandson rather than me.

  34. Glamaig says:

    @Mike 7:31
    I wouldnt bother with RT, unless youre a fan of George Galloway and Brian Wilson.

  35. Glamaig says:

    As others saying, Michael Crick on channel 4 news there, what a disgrace. That needs taken apart (and complained about). His ‘sources’ must be the BTL commenteers on the BBC website.

  36. dakk says:

    Just seen someone who looks like Wayne Sleep(think it was Katie Hoey)on Sky News persist with the ‘Salmond made Sturgeon do it’ white,also said SNP don’t have a mandate rubbish.

    Strangers to truth or thick.Take your pick.

  37. Dan Huil says:

    Britnats going crazy. Headless chickens… gutless chickens… by tonight probably legless chickens.

  38. Marcia says:

    Sources say that I’m 18 when they should be going to an optician.

  39. Jamie says:

    Is it just me or is Dugdale a wee bit sensitive? Maybe she looked over her own comments and decided they were abusive having been persuaded by Nicola’s speach?

  40. Clootie says:

    One makes it up and the others report it. This is our media.

  41. feel_loon says:

    Hi Guys
    As a long time reader but non contributor i felt after the news today i just had to donate to the fighting fund .
    Although not really surprised at the reaction of the media today i must say i was shocked of the responses of some work mates today , mostly along the lines of too wee too poor etc .
    Asked a few questions they could not answer so going in armed with the wee black books tomorrow.
    Don’t think i could cope with another No vote

    Really feel its now or never

  42. Bill Tierney says:

    Just donated £100 at https://www.ref.scot/donate

    Pleased wi’ masel

  43. Mike says:

    Ive just heard that the Indyref 2 postal vote results look grim.

  44. Camz says:

    The MSM are too used to picking up a phone and having the news fed to them from their ‘sources’ (usually someone with an agenda).

    Investigative journalism is almost a lost art, it seems.

  45. Mike says:

    Sources inform me that the Indyref 2 postal vote is looking grim.

  46. DerekM says:

    @ Mike

    Just switch off the old radiation subliminal frequency box Mike,you will feel better for it.

    Mine has been in the spare room unplugged since 2014 i do not miss it if i want to see something on UK tv i use kodi.

    Sod them lol 🙂

  47. One_Scot says:

    I cannot believe Nicolas referendum fund is now at £125,000.

    https://www.ref.scot

    Well done everyone who has already donated.

  48. Sheryl Hepworth says:

    I think that what all yessers and those of us who think #scotref is a brilliant thing should do is just not rise to any bait at all. Stay quiet let the MSM and EBC etc go red in their multifaceted faces by not getting any tweets, FB’s, or letters etc from us. When they have exhausted themselves and are reduced to unintelligable heavy breathing THEN we attack with everything and everyone we have!!!
    Nasty aren’t I? But that would be such fun!!! Let them spew their rubbish and lies and wonder what the actual F*** is going on when all they here from us is silence!!

  49. galamcennalath says:

    They are going to use up all their lies long before we get to the vote!

    They just can’t keep this up for 18months.

    When someone sees through all the lies, they can’t unsee it. And with each day more and more will realise the media and their political lackies are peddling nonsense.

    Project Fear did impact on IndyRef1 but even then, it’s effectiveness was wearing thin. By ScotRef day, it will be seen by most as Project Talking Utter Shite!

  50. Sheryl Hepworth says:

    Ooops sorry! That last sentence ”here” should be hear!!

  51. Andy-B says:

    A friend of a mate, said his wife’s sisters father-in-law, heard through a source that it’s all the fault of Nicola Sturgeon.

    So it must be true.

  52. Big Jock says:

    Project smear part 2. Will they never learn. Heard that Massie bam saying on Channel 4 that project fear worked with smile.

    How someone with any morals could think that basing a union on fear is justifiable. Is just utter madness.

  53. Proud Cybernat says:

    The only source Kuenssberg should concern herself with is the PRIMARY source i.e. Nicola Sturgeon. Had she taken the time to actually LISTEN to the words spoken by the PRIMARY source she would have known that all her SECONDARY sources were speaking a pile of steaming keech. But, of course, the PRIMARY source didn’t say what Kuenssberg wanted so was ‘ignored’ in preference of the keech.

  54. Robert Graham says:

    Get ready for the polished Turd Mayhem is about to lob back over the wall in our direction .
    It will start with while we respect the views of the Scottish people , then the usual drivel will be added to make us feel wanted , then will come the but .
    the short version is YER NO GETTIN ONE SO SHUT THE F/k UP .
    well chaps what do we do then ? shes arrogant and mad enough to do it . Any ideas of what next .

  55. Free Scotland says:

    Did Dugdale really think no-one would check?

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/keziadugdale1.jpg

  56. galamcennalath says:

    Nigel Farage? says ” Nicola Sturgeon would lose a second independence referendum big time.” And he is not the only one making such claims.

    This contest begins ~50:50

    Over the next 18months Brexit is going wreak havoc and become a harbinger of even worse to come!

    Whatever makes them think they can roll back YES support?

    I think the sheer absolute straw-grabbing panic we have seen today from Yoonery tells us how they really think things will pan out for them!

  57. K1 says:

    There’s an option to make your donation into a direct debit on the donate page, so if everyone can pledge as little as a fiver a month to the campaign coffers, we’ll having a real fightin’ fund all the way through…looking forward to this fund smashing a million quid in lesss than 10 days…that’s ma prediction…

    https://www.ref.scot/donate

  58. Artyhetty says:

    Goodness, reading comments here about the anti Scottish, anti SNP, anti Nicola Sturgeon message being fed into peoples’ living rooms today and tonight, anyone would think that Scotland mattered. Hmm, so, not just your wee insignificant too stupid country then. N.Sturgeon has the measure of things, she knew that a big stramash would ensue, in the yoon media.

    Well Tereza, you underestimate the people of Scotland, the people who have made Scotland their home, the people who do not, and have not voted for your destructive, backward, dangerous political game playing.

    May has said that N.Sturgeon is playing games. May, has revealed her own inadequacy, and her party’s incompetence, everyone can see that she is the one playing games here. No thanks, T.May, we are looking forwards and outward, not inward, not backwards, but looking at a grown up, 21st century future. You can carry on dear, with your backward, destructive, insular mindset.

    Scotland will pursue her own positive, life affirming future, and if ScotRef is the only way to do that, then so be it.

    England, get your act together, and stop blaming others for your governments terrible failures.
    Look at yourselves, and get your own house in order.

  59. Mike says:

    Ive just had an epiphany.

    We should encourage the 3 million EU residents within the UK to move to Scotland in time for the Indyref vote.

  60. Vestas says:

    We’re at 47-49% with all this shit being thrown at us.

    Calm down.

    We have a solid 45% who are not going anywhere other than Yes regardless of the yoon shite.

    Beat that as a baseline.

  61. John Walsh says:

    I thought you had to be intelligent to be a journalist,but Micheal Crick is either thick or a mendacious liar .
    “WE CAN’T FUCKING JOIN OR BE FORCED TO JOIN THE EURO”
    So projectfear2 is up and away.
    Lets try scaring some pensioners folks.
    Will the Tories get rid of Scottish Lords?
    1. Reduce members in Lords
    2. Save costs £300 per day per Lord.
    3. “Jock” Lords voting on English laws. Not on old bean.
    4. Reduce the bar bill of some ever thirsty Lord.

  62. Craig P says:

    The more I hear media voices claim Nicola Sturgeon hates the English, the more I wonder what kind of self-projection is going on. The only statistically proven hate from the last few years is the hate of British people for foreigners.

  63. cynicalHighlander says:

    They just can’t help themselves.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/theresa-may-can-stop-indyref2/

  64. Brus MacGallah says:

    Complain to Channel four about Michael Crick here is the form.

    https://www.channel4.com/4viewers/contact-us

    It’s going to be a long campaign and we need to nip these lies in the bud now!

  65. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    A wee musical interlude…

    This song sums up the kind of day I’ve had today. In the lyrics, “you” is (obviously!) Nicola.

    BTW: a wee bit of trivia… As far as I know, the holding of a note for 17 seconds in the song is a record that hasn’t been beaten.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYi7uEvEEmk

  66. Alisdair says:

    Harry Mcaye at 7.43, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA, now that is Scottish humour!!!!!!!!

  67. yesindyref2 says:

    This is funny.

    And I’ve got enough dummies spat out and piled up on my doorstep now I’m going to have to get a 55 tonne double-trailer truck to come and pick them up to give to charity. It’s going to take approximately 10,000 litres of sterilinsg fluid to clean them up first 🙁

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    Some of them broke the sound barrier all the way up from Westminster!

  69. mogabee says:

    See me…

    I’m so laid back about this all, I’m horizontal 😀

    Been there, seen it, heard it, done it so NOTHING is going to upset my day!

    Met friends today, wryly talked of the media. They can GTF ‘coz we will do this OUR WAY!

    OUR FUTURE…WE DECIDE 🙂 🙂 🙂

  70. Arbroath1320 says:

    Amazed at how fast unionist media fall into the category of complete imbeciles. They attend a news conference and hear some news from the First Minister. Collective media brain cell goes into brainfud explosion mode!

    Caught a glimpse of some brainfud on SKY, Ed Conway, starting the SKY News diatribe about currency *BORING* E.U. *BORING* …switched over!

    Boy the paper reviews on BBC and SKY are gonna be hilarious tonight folks! I just hope my keyboard will be able to:

    a) keep up

    b) stand the hammering it is about to suffer tonight. 😀

    Sorry but I posted this up on the earlier thread but now we have this thread I think it is well worth re-posting. Unionist anti Scottish independence media types throughout today. 😀

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG7LoTezLO8

  71. Cadogan Enright says:

    Channel 4 complaints number 03450760191

    Thanks for link to https://www.ref.scot

  72. Famous15 says:

    Listening to the likes of Kate Hoey saying things like we will not get into the EU or that we will be forced to use the Euro in spite of Sweden demonstrating you do not,just makes me feel we will win against this stupidity.

    The NATO SecGen also must have a look at a map and see how strategically important Scotland is.Tongue in cheek I have said other Alliances are available but the reality is NATO will be begging us on bended knees to rejoin if they were ever daft enough to let us leave.

    I feel ScotRef this time round is much more hopeful and it is not oldies like me that gives me that hope but the under 60’s. Feel the surge of hope over fear!

  73. shug says:

    When Nicola goes the Scottish parliament for permission it would be funny if Kezza pressed the wrong button again and the proposal is carried by her vote

    Any electricians out there up for a laugh

  74. Arbroath1320 says:

    ROBBO says:
    13 March, 2017 at 7:19 pm

    Sky news may have been wrong footed but quickly regrouped and got NATO head to start the first ‘Scare’ of the campaign by insinuating an Indy Scotland would have to reapply to join the club again.

    As usual Robbo SKY go off half cocked.

    They seem to forget that an independent Scotland would be the BIG deal … *UH UH!* NATO using OUR waters and OUR bombing and firing would be the BIG deal. If memory serves me right there is an island just North of Cape Wrath that NATO use for bombing practice. I wonder how NATO will manage WITHOUT the use of this range. More over we have a large swathe of water that would be outwith NATO coverage I wonder how Uncle Sam and co. will take that information. Apparently the “Norwegian Gap” is a BIG issue for Uncle Sam, talk about making problems for themselves! 😀

  75. liz says:

    feel quite calm at all the mud/lies thrown
    They’ve peaked too early.

    All these lies can be easily debunked but it’s getting info out to folk who don’t use social media.

    I’ve resolved not to get involved in any arguments, just post info showing their rubbish is wrong, then mute

  76. As I write groups of desperate Yoons are locked away in E cig steam filled rooms holding workshos to write Project Fear 2.Kuenssberg, Settle, Roden, McTernan, Brewer, McDougall, and the entire MSM will be up all night churning out the response to the Caledonia spring Uprising.
    Michael Crick, you should be ashamed of yourself.
    (I know that you lot read WoS and WGD.)
    Isn’t Jon Snow’s son a historian who is married to a Scottish Noble Land owner’s daughter? Isn’t channel 4 owned by the BBC?
    Do not ak for whom the bell tolls, ye dead tree scrollers. It tolls for thee.
    What happened to journalists seeking truth.
    30 pieces of silver hacks now.

  77. Gerry says:

    “Sinn Fein has said there is an urgent need for a referendum on Irish unity as the British government has “refused to listen” to the majority of people in Northern Ireland over Brexit.”

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-sinn-fein-demands-referendum-on-irish-reunification-1-4391397

    This changes the whole game.

  78. Jim Mitchell says:

    Actually folks by their twisted logic the fact that lies and smears brought them a victory last time would indicate that more of the same will bring a similar result.

    It’s up to Yessers to prove them wrong.

    Remember how much effect their negativity had last time, we can use that along with all the lies they told to Scotlands good this time!

  79. Dorothy Devine says:

    I am sorry I visited the Spectator site – the ignorance , arrogance and downright foulness on display from our ‘tolerant neighbours ‘ has left me thinking that a bunch of cretins fulminate ad nauseam on Scotland , the SNP , the Independence supporters, Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon.

    Whatever happened to ‘ education , education ,education ‘ ?

    It seems to have by passed those windae lickers south of the border.

    I hope someone is keeping a record of the charm and tolerance displayed by our nearest neighbours.

  80. joannie says:

    The outpouring of rage and hate that I’ve seen online today in response to Nicola Sturgeon is quite astonishing. The lies from the MSM too, especially that guy on C4 news who went into a big rant not one iota of which was true.

  81. Joe Carroll says:

    Good luck Scotland, it would be wonderful to see you rejoin the nations of the world, flag flying at the UN our Gaelic cousins back where they belong. You face an uphill battle with the might of the BBC and other organs of state (including the secret state??) opposing you. The propaganda is from watching the BBC unrelenting from example neil oliver’s ‘capital of ancient britain’ programme hammering home anti-historical BS.

  82. Bob Mack says:

    I love this. May cannot now hold a snap election to give her a legitimate mandate as leader. She will not risk it now so close to Brexit.
    She as the Spectator suggests could ask for proof of legitimacy for a referendum in elections in 2020 to prove the will of the Scottish people. This however carries enormous political risks. How can a Prime Minister with no mandate herself from the electorate insist that the SNP requires something she does not have herself.

    They are busy at the drawing board trying to construct a way out. You really have to wonder about our true worth when they use every scheme in the book of dirty tricks to keep us.

    It may be more about our potential worth as a member of the EU than our current situation. We would be in a position England could not compete with.

  83. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Re Michael Crick and his stupidity and lie-telling. I don’t see Channel 4 News doing anything other than a whitewash job on complaints.

    They are an arrogant, London-based outfit, as such, they are agin us, and will ignore our complaints. And, never forget – Channel 4 News is where Sarah Smith started.

    Slightly off-topic. A long-standing journalist friend of mine spent many years with the Airdrie and Coatbridge Advertiser. He lived close to Fran and Anna, so,he was always presented with the ladies’ latest record to review for the paper.

    He has always maintained Fran and Anna genuinely thought they had talent and were good singers – just as today’s Fran and Anna of Scottish politics – Ruth and Kezia are harbouring the misapprehension that they have political talent, and good at their jobs and are relevant. Aye Right!!

    They will be dangerous in the coming months. They are now so-wedded to London orders and opinion, when Scotland is independent, as far as their parties are concerned, they will be toast. They will use every dirty trick they can to hang onto their jobs, and keep Scotland in the UK. Because, in an independent Scotland, if there are truly Scottish Labour and Tory parties, those who were London’s people in pre-independence Scotland will be replaced.

  84. Mary Miles says:

    Greetings from Tasmania.

    Wonderful news that Nicola has started the ball rolling on new referendum on Independence for Scotland.

    Surely this time we must succeed.

    Already over here the main news is only interviewing London sources. I will certainly do my best to “educate” people to search beyond that and let them know about wonderful sources of information like Wings Over Scotland. I think the Scottish people must be wiser this time around and certainly Stuart is working very hard on his part. It needs us all.

    Very Best Wishes to a successful outcome 2018/19.

  85. Dan Huil says:

    Tomorrow’s britnat newspaper headlines are going to be hysterical.

  86. Cadogan Enright says:

    Sillars shaming himself on RT

  87. Dan Huill says:

    Thanks to Joe Carroll and Mary Miles. Good to know you’re on our side.

  88. Arbroath1320 says:

    So first up we have Nicola Sturgeon yanking the rug from under Mayhem’s feet.

    Now Mayhem has to fight TWO battles on TWO fronts pretty much at the same time.

    Mayhem can no longer, realistically, “claim” to represent a “united” Britain.

    Then, just to add to Mayhem’s problems, not that you’ll hear much I suspect, from the BBC SKY or any other unionist media outlet, is the news that moves appear to be beginning to form to re-unite North and South Ireland. The result of this wee gem is, in my view, an INCREASE in battles to be fought by Mayhem from TWO to THREE! 😀

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-working-on-plan-for-united-ireland-1.3007587

  89. GrahamB says:

    Gerry at 8:59
    We only need Gibraltar to get the boot in to make the day complete. Perhaps we could invite them to join us as a Scottish Overseas Territory so they could stay in the EU. Don’t know what they would do with the naval dockyard though.

  90. Macart says:

    Yoonitariat appear to be in a bit of a lather. Amazing what being caught with your collective bums hingin’ oot the widae does for your calm. 🙂

    Speaking of which, calm and steady folks. Dot the ‘i’ and cross the ‘t’ approach. The onus is on Westminster and their response. Give them the length of rope they require, break oot the popcorn and let the meeja go into meltdown trying to square circles.

    PM May’s negotiating hand going into EU talks has just been weakened considerably. That should focus some minds. 🙂

    Oh and Mr Gethins on SKY today? Well done.

  91. TheStrach says:

    The same old lies from the MSM won’t work this time. Once Article 50 is called we’ll also have the support of our many friends in the EU.

  92. Artyhetty says:

    We might be reading this all wrong, ie the right wing, media, political establishment have been well versed and well prepared. Their anti Scottish, anti Scotland, hate fest is working just fine and dandy. Demonise a person, a country, a political party, usually more left leaning, and job done.

    Shit sticks.

    So brain washing already almost done, you have your enemy, someone else, closer to home to blame. Scary stuff.

    My dad fought in Malayia, he said that the only way they could really fight was by being brain washed, being told that the innocent, ie anyone, was your enemy, and to therefore silence and kill them.
    Shh, they were not that daft, sometimes the abusive officers came a cropper, deep dark long way from home jungle, you see. Hm.

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    Frm the HoL/HoC: “That’s no excuse, ladies and gentleman, for a decision based on the third reading of the Daily Mail“.

    I hope she moves to Scotland, I like her humour. And reality.

  94. McDuff says:

    In the Independent today it quotes Margaritis Schinas the EU`s chief spokesperson saying that Scotland would have to go to the back of the queue if it wished to join the EU and said that the Barroso“ doctrine would apply“.
    It also quotes the Nato`s secretary -general Jens Stoltenberg that membership to Nato was “not automatic“.
    IF and I say if this is true what the #’@> is going on here. Scotland is an ancient democratic and stable western country so why would it be treated in this way.
    It also highlights the “plunging oil price “and its effect on an independent Scotland.
    We really need to star fighting fire with fire as the MSM are going all out to crush indy2.

  95. stewartb says:

    Having listened to the anti-indy guff on the BBC Radio 4 News tonight (absolutely no chance of indy ref in the FM’s timeframe; Spanish veto on membership; economic case so much weaker etc., etc.) with despair but with no surprise, I watched the Channel 4 News, as I do regularly, to get some grown-up, balanced reporting and comment. How wrong I was: amazed and so very disappointed at Crick’s ‘mis-reporting’ – to put it very kindly.

    If even C4 is going to behave like this, we need to think very hard about how best to mount an effective, ongoing rebuttal process and hope that the Yes campaigners that get media exposure work to re-frame the issues and get us on to the front foot.

    Robert Louis @7.37pm I hope your excellent summary of Crick’s misreporting will form the core of a formal complaint to C4.

  96. ChewinTheFat says:

    I just find it fucking hilarious how terrified these twats are of IndyRef2… heaven forbid people might have actually changed their minds and vote YES this time.

    And Kezia Dugdale… There are no words in the dictionary that would describe how stupid that woman is – does she think using the word “divisive” on a daily basis I.E. 100x+ a day will brainwash people?

    I have never understood the sense in using this word to describe anything in politics, since politics in itself IS divisive. Someone give her a real job. Pretty sure I saw Lidl advertising for people. She should apply.

  97. Mungo says:

    I hope the Yes side are not going to fall back into the trap of spending all our time chasing around trying to come up with answers to the barrage of stupid accusations and endless, he said, she said shite!
    We need to ignore the nonsense and create our own narrative. Alex should perhaps have let that one go?

  98. Phronesis says:

    The sun was shining down today as the FM made her joyous announcement so expect a barrage of faux outrage at the temerity of Scotland seeking self -determination.

    Remove the word ‘independence’ which seems to trigger extreme hostility and angst in those who still rate the Union and all that’s left to fret about is a country (Scotland is a country) that wants control of its economy, maintain its state institutions, become energy self-sufficient, progress its society, remain an internationalised outward looking nation in a globalised world. Those are normal aspirations for any country and Scotland is no different in that respect.

    However Scotland sees itself is all about perspective but expect a rerun (it’s already begun) of Project Fear that will soon discover that Scotland is not the same, adapting and evolving as it travels peacefully towards its rightful destination.

    So, expect a lacklustre campaign from ‘Better Together ad infinitum’ of blustering, rehashed threats and negative comments because there is now no convincing argument for Scotland to remain in the UK. It’s also clear that there is a democratic deficit that can never be bridged and Scotland is now fighting for the heart and soul of its democracy. WM is on a permanent war footing-fighting democracy.

    ‘We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one can make for us, which no one can spare us’ Marcel Proust

  99. Sinky says:

    stewartb

    We need to start complaining now about TV and Radio broadcasters bias, lack of balance and misreporting including their London based news reviews / Politics Now progs.

    Put markers down now before its too late although not much we can do about newspapers other than tweet objections.

    Could try letters but no guarantee they will be published.

  100. Patrick Roden says:

    They are so angry and stupid, they don’t realise they are pissing so many Scots off, that money is flying into the SNP’s coffers like it’s went out of fashion!

    Keep annoying folk, you lovely daft gits, and we will probably have our million by this time Wednesday!

  101. Bill McDermott says:

    I have made a complaint to Channel 4 News and challenged Michael Crick to do the research and come back on to correct his mistakes. Some hope!

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    @Arbroath1320
    What an idiot that Lindsay Bruce Rogue Coder is, he got it totally wrong.

    It won’t be the GIUK gap it will be the GIS gap 🙂

    Mmmmmmmm, enjoying my other tab. Put Scotland into google, tap on the map, click back that stupid LHS tab, and zoom out.

    Just sit back and enjoy Scotland ringed in red on mine, taking our place in the Northern hemisphere. It looks huge!

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    Onyways, wot I posted eleewhere about the NATO thing.

    But as for NATO, formal application would presumably have to be made, and NATO would have to put in place a Membership Action Plan for Scotland, but I’d think this would effectively be within NATO. The reason? Just put Scotland into google, centre and zoom out. The GIUK gap becomes the GIS gap, mostly.

    Before the Ref there’ll be bluster all over the place and ex-SGs and even a relatively cautious current one will be wheeled out to make some quotes and then be mis-quoted all over the media. Same as before!

    But after the Ref it will be very different. NATO without Scotland? I don’t think so.

  104. Artyhetty says:

    Re;Macart@9.29

    A calming voice amid the yoonetariat storm, thanks. 🙂

  105. HandandShrimp says:

    The Yoon frenzy is remarkable in its thrashing around How dare she not be bluffing!

    I see no evidence of the supposed positive case for the Union. just the same Project Fear drivel as last time only with brass knobs on…really nasty some of it too. I feel strangely unmoved by it. it is like looking at a painting by numbers. Even if you know nothing about art you can see it is not a Rembrandt.

    If the EU make any positive noises about Scotland being in the EU stand by your beds for Brexiteer heads exploding. They don’t want to be in the EU but they think they have some God given right to dictate who the EU should let in and under what terms….pompous twits.

  106. Breeks says:

    When you have Farage, Boris, Theresa, Fox, Gove, History Woman, Spanner, BBC, The Express, Guardian, Mail, the EDL, NF, Scotland in Union, and all the rest lining up to slag off and belittle my country, then the Unionists are quite right:- It does create division.

    If there was no sense of division, then this embarrassment of eejits would be foaming at the mouth on “our” side.

    Quite frankly, a good bit more division between “us” and “them” sounds just the ticket….

  107. stewartb says:

    Sinky @9.51pm

    I’ve been complaining to the BBC and less frequently to C4 News for some time – of course to no avail. OK no reason to give up – to continue to be small thorns – but wonder if rather than just complaining, in any complaint I should now include more substantive ‘rebuttal’ information content. Don’t know – much to ponder, and now with an even clearer purpose.

  108. ewen says:

    I’m already in trouble off the wife for shouting at the TV when Crick was on. The swearies got worse when Davidson and Dugdale came on. I am avoiding the Times and Observer until 2019 because I’m worried I won’t keep it civil any more.

  109. McDuff says:

    yesindyref2

    After the ref of course it will be different, if we win. Its 50/50 at the moment and we haven`t got any slack to play with. Negative statements from the EU and Nato WILL have an effect during the campaign and will have to be countered somehow.
    Complacency is our worst enemy.

  110. yesindyref2 says:

    @McDuff
    Absolutely, and I’d say the next 7 days are very important ones to get out there and counter the lies and the guff before it has time to take hold.

    A key thing we should be saying is “Don’t believe what you read or see in the media, check it out yourself, and keep an open mind”.

  111. Gary45% says:

    Expect Crash “the fist” Broon to be seen shortly rocking side to side like a demented baboon shouting “Turbo charged austerity”
    Looks like they have their new project fear!!
    As for the “once in a generation” bollocks, what about EVEL? that was NEVER mentioned in the 2014 Indy Ref.
    Yoon trolls get over yourselves, it’s coming.
    The empire has had plenty of time since the Brexit vote and have totally ignored the Scottish Government, equal family of nations? FU*K OFF.
    We won’t get fooled again.

  112. Legerwood says:

    I really get fed up with the constant: ‘You’ll have to use the Euro’ that is a constant refrain from the No side.

    An independent Scotland would probably have to agree to adopt the Euro. That does not mean that I Scotland agrees to adopt it on the Tuesday and starts using it on the Wednesday which is the impression the No side tries to foster at every turn.

    Firstly, there are criteria Scotland would have to meet and that takes time.

    Secondly, the process of adoption can be halted/postponed by a country if that country feels it is in their interests to do so. See the extract from Wikipedia below. Hungary is just one example of a country that has delayed adoption.

    Thirdly, would adopting the Euro, if we met the criteria, be bad for Scotland?– see the comment in the quote about Hungary from Wikipedia about it increasing inward investment.

    “”While the Hungarian government has been planning since 2003 to replace the Hungarian forint with the euro, as of 2014, there is no target date and the forint is not part of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II). An economic study in 2008 has found that the adoption of the euro would increase foreign investment in Hungary by 30%,[1]although current governor of the Hungarian National Bank (MNB) and former Minister of the National Economy György Matolcsy said they did not want to give up the country’s independence regarding corporate tax matters.””” Wikipedia

  113. Arbroath1320 says:

    To be fair yes it is the GIUK gap for now and will remain so until after independence. The point he, and I, were trying to make is that uncle Sam is quite concerned about this gap and with Scotland out of NATO they will have fewer options from where to operate from. My understanding is they would have to operate from Norway, who prohibit nuke armed/nuke powered ships in their waters. It will only become the GIS gap after we are an independent country.

    As far as NATO is concerned Yes I’m not convinced OUR application to join will be as straight forward as the Yoons think. If I recall at the SNP conference a few years ago when the held the vote about NATO it was rather tight. With all the sabre rattling of NATO against Russia in the past six months or so I am not convinced a repeat vote would win. Neither am I convinced by the that a vote in Holyrood would win support any longer.

  114. galamcennalath says:

    The fundamental problem here is that somehow the Tories have got it into their heads that they speak for the whole UK. I know that sounds ridiculous but that does seem to be what they believe.

    They speak for England, yes. Also, we all know in South Britain there is a degree of confusion about the difference between England and the UK. Therein probably lies the explanation for the Tories’ brass neck of acting like a mandated UK government.

    Today they were given a sharp reminder that they do not and cannot speak for Scotland.

  115. Luigi says:

    One big reason the yoon MSM has gone apeshit, IMO, is that they really did not expect NS to make her move this week. “She wouldn’t dare”, they thought. “She can’t” they thought. “She’s bluffing”, they thought. “Maybe in a few weeks after Article 50”, they thought. “Maybe at the SNP conference next week” they thought.

    Well, she could and she did. And they don’t have a clue how to respond (apart from the usual Howling of the Yoon. She has wrong-footed the lot of them, pulled the rug from under Mayhem’s feet. No doubt the yoons will get their little act together, but too late. Mayhem’s timing for a BREXIT spectacular has been utterly destroyed. Nicola has played a blinder. My, how the midnight oil will be burning tonight. My heart bleeds. 🙂

  116. Big Jock says:

    It’s very simple if WM tries to block this. Holyrood goes on strike and SNP resign and call a Scottish election. They win that on a ticket of independence and just declare it.

    Indeed this is how we joined the common market. Which is why wm will not block it.

    They know the young couldn’t win a Scottish election and anger would push the SNP vote up.

    Only thing they might do is try and force the referendum to April 19. Can’t see them getting away with that. I still think it will be Sept 18.

  117. Orri says:

    Just how stupid do they think we are.

    Delaying the referendum until after the UK has officially left the EU really doesn’t suit me.

    The obvious aim might be to make it impossible for a near seamless transition from being a part of an EU member to one in our own right and thus make the case for independence harder. However it’s even more devious if not outright cynical.

    If Scotland is no longer part of the EU that means EU citizens who were denied a say in the EU referendum will be denied a vote in a referendum that losing might mean they would no longer be guaranteed the right to remain in a country where the have put down roots and made a life for themselves.

    Fuck that, we’re not falling for that crap.

  118. mike cassidy says:

    As an indyref2 campaign warm up exercise –

    if you know any no voting pensioners, just direct them here.

    http://archive.is/nNYkG

    Project Feardie strikes again!

  119. Bob Mack says:

    No, you can’t join NATO.

    OK then, the first invader to storm our land will have immediate access to your nuclear subs and armaments depot at Coulport How’s that then ?

    They may just obey the English border ,but you never know.

  120. Swami Backverandah says:

    If Nicola Sturgeon plays the choice card as the main point, she’s going to have to leave the indy vote till as late in the day in the brexit timetable, otherwise her argument won’t hold up.
    So it looks more like Feb/Mar 2019?

  121. Juan P says:

    Just donated £50 to the indy ref fund.

    https://www.ref.scot/donate

    Now would be a good time for other indy groups to start crowdfunding too

    I’m not able to actively campaign but more than happy to provide financial support to help those who can.

  122. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Iain MacWhirter is on R5 right now.

  123. gus1940 says:

    Tomorrow’s (tuesday)papers will be UK Fake News Day.

  124. DerekM says:

    @ Arbroath1320

    I think we should leave NATO but join with all the North European nations in a shared maritime defense force of the gap,and that includes the British/English forces,if they are still not sulking about us leaving.

    Though like Norway we should ban all nuke warships and subs in our waters,though the reality is we can not stop the USA and Russia from parking up their WMD`s at the bottom of the North Sea and Atlantic,but we can stop them being next to one of our major population centers or in our country.

    And anyway i hear those Russian sailors like a good beer we could persuade them to leave the nuke boats at home and come for a pint and a few whiskys,they can bring the Stolichnaya Vodka 😉

  125. Rock says:

    The First Minister of Scotland has asked Westminster for permission to hold an independence referendum.

    Robert Peffers, haven’t you been shouting from the rooftops that Scotland does not need Westminster’s permission to hold an independence referendum?

    What should the First Minister do if Westminster refuses permission to hold a referendum on the timescale she wants to?

  126. msean says:

    I see all the ill informed stuff re you will have to join the Euro etc has surged today. All those kippers and other tories are raging about something.

  127. yesindyref2 says:

    Just watching Reporting Scotland, quite amazing. Thought Kuessenberg earlier on was fair enough, Eardley I like anyway, but they had Mundell doing his not could but should thing, quick flash and there he was again, flapping like a penguin, doing the same again. They really made a fool of him. Even the Kirkcaldy interviews earlier were quite balanced I thought, and current ones seem OK.

    Interesting. The worm turns perhaps, and who knows, the BBC is misreporting Scotland billboard campaign might well have done its job.

  128. Free Scotland says:

    From Mhairi Hunter on Twitter:

    Honestly this “economic uncertainty” line from people – whether Tory or Labour – who have accepted the hardest Brexit possible is amazing.

  129. meg merrilees says:

    Ronnie Anderson

    The Times is reporting that TMay is considering refusing permission…

    Can you shed any more light on this comment you made yesterday?

    Nicola’s playing a blinder with the section 30 order to entice Teresa May into blocking it . Nicola is just playing the convention card , she knows fine well that the Scottish Gov can declare a Referendem & that has been confirmed by Charles Livingstone of Brodie’s LLb (Scottish Gov legal advisors).

    Apparently the pound has risen since Nicola made her speech this morning…

  130. Robert Peffers says:

    @Training Day says: 13 March, 2017 at 7:33 pm:

    “Does Dugdale think party politics are not divisive? If they are, should we eschew them? Maybe ban football as it’s too divisive? Or how about marmite?”

    Aw! Cummoan! Training Day, Yon’s no fair, Efter aa yon Marmite really is divisive stuff, so it is.

  131. sinky says:

    BBC Newsnight with two British Nats debating Scottish Indy. Some balance

  132. JLT says:

    I’ll bet that Ruth and Kezia are sitting at home tonight wondering about the future. I’ll bet they are not as confident as they try to pretend.

    You only had to watch the interviews with David Mundell earlier this evening and see a rabbit standing in front of car headlights. His face betrayed what we already knew

    – That Scotland has a legitimate claim to a 2nd Referendum
    – That the Tories are making a complete dog’s dinner of Brexit
    – That they might not have control over a Referendum date
    – That they have no idea what is going to happen with Article 50
    – That they have no idea what their trading position is going to be within a brave new world
    – That they have spectacularly divided England right down the middle …let alone damaged relations with every other home nation
    – That there is going to be one very upset and irate Monarch who has seen the Empire end on her watch without needing to see the breakup of the United Kingdom, let alone completely alienating her Commonwealth thanks to the insulting concept of Empire 2.0.

    It’s a complete and utter mess. And stating that Scotland seeking independence is only making things worse for the UK is utterly laughable. Offers were put down on the table by the Scottish government and Theresa cast them to one side in utter contempt. What does Scotland have to do to gain this godawful Prime Minister’s respect? Kezia, Ruth and wee Willie will find that the derision towards them will grow over the next few months …simply because they are not offering any vision of the future, except that we must remain in the UK as it nosedives into the ground. They forget that they are here to serve the Scottish people in Holyrood …not fight for the UK State. They are not members of Westminster!

    When the boat is going down or the house is going up in flames …you don’t sit around and pretend that ‘it’s going to be all right really’. When you can see that the writing is on the wall …you get out fast!!

  133. Mike W says:

    Gisela Stewart describing the UK union as one that actually works. She must have stayed in all day without internet, TV or radio.

  134. The Dog Philosopher says:

    If Scotland is truly such an economic burden (as we are continually reminded), why do certain people in England get so hot under the collar about events such as today? Why get so angry? Surely England can only benefit from off-loading Scotland, just as it obviously will do when it disconnects from Europe.

    Or am I missing something?

  135. Effijy says:

    So if Scotland wasn’t in a NATO that is hostile to us, we can then use the mandatory Trump payment of 2% of GDP on building our own economy and not on England’s defence.

    How about Scotland suggests that we tow their share of nuclear subs down to the Thames on the day after the referendum, and we sell our share of the subs and missiles to Russia.

    How about this to warm Westminster hearts, Scotland could offer Russian ships use of our docks for refuelling.
    We could give them permission to patrol Scottish waters the ones that England cannot be bothered to protect.

    Maybe they would like to buy one of our uninhabited Islands
    so that they can watch England more closely and even protect Scotland from any Westminster attack.

    Stick that soon to be empty oil & water pipe Westminster.

    Are we in Scotland in Danger from Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan? Who is it that is coming to invade us???

    Perhaps an invader would give Scotland a greater share of its own revenue and have some degree of respect for us?
    Doubt they could steal more, from us or have less respect for us than Westminster.

  136. caz-m says:

    Time to get back on the Indy road again.

    Good to be back on Wings again.

  137. Stoker says:

    caz_m (11:07pm)

    Good to see you back, and not before time.
    😉

  138. call me dave says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    I’m listening to McWhirt and he’s doing OK so far. He quoted his EU source re Scotland getting in but the BBC 5 guy couldn’t.

    Oh Morag from Dundee just on ‘my hero’ 🙂

  139. ScottishPsyche says:

    There some people on TV tonight who really need to practice relaxation techniques for the sake of their health.

  140. ScottishPsyche says:

    *practise

  141. Hamish100 says:

    10.53 Ahh Rock appears from under a …..

    What’s your campaign strategy rock? Cancel all Indy ref papers?

    If May says no to a referendum. Hold it anyway.

    Residence rights > 5 years .
    No holiday home owners
    Remember Michelle Mone or she will leave the country oops she’s done that already

  142. Robert Peffers says:

    @feel_loon says: 13 March, 2017 at 7:56 pm:

    “Hi Guys
    As a long time reader but non contributor i felt after the news today i just had to donate to the fighting fund .

    So, feel_loonm Hi, yersel, but why have you been so long before commenting? It’s always good to get other perspectives from other than the same gadgies every day.

  143. call me dave says:

    Go on Morag you tell them! Treaty of the Union equal partners!

    Trying to shut her down. Jason says Sturgeon embarrassing Scotland.

    Morag puts Jason right. Well done Morag!

    What a day

  144. Hamish100 says:

    Faslane – with the unionists going to privatise the security at Faslane. Give an undertaking now that all defence forces at navy base will remain public.

  145. Arbroath1320 says:

    As far as I’m concerned IF, and it is a HUGE “if” , Mayhem DOES refuse us permission then I think she will have to answer to the U.N.

    http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

    I believe that article 2 brings everything into sharp focus regarding Mayhem and her refusing us our undeniable right to hold a referendum.

    2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

    I like your thinking there DerekM. 😉

  146. Orri says:

    The thing about Faslane is that it will quickly lose its utility if they can’t sneak subs in or out. An independent Scotland would have every right to insist any foreign submarine surface during passage through its waters. Submarine nets and traps would be perfectly within our right to deploy. The rUK would have to claim a significant amount of our seaways and the Clyde to operate clandestinely.

    Not to mention that there’s no way we’ll simply allow secret nuclear convoys that pass through highly, for Scotland, populated areas.

  147. gus1940 says:

    Wow!!! Balance on Scotland Tonight 2 v 2 – Gethins & Harvie v Tomkins & Sarwar.

  148. TheWasp says:

    Frothing yoons on 5 live phone in now, but the marvellous Morag from Dundee, getting them telt, until she “had to be cut short as time is limited”
    Great as always Morag, I don’t know how you can keep the heid, a researcher asked me to make a point on up all night a few months ago but I refused as I think I would have just lost it as I was so angry

  149. mike cassidy says:

    I’ll repost this quote from Joe Pike’s “Project Fear” book about the 2014 Better Together campaign.

    “A surprising number of pro-UK politicians and advisers I spoke to said something along the lines of: ‘There’s going to be a second Scottish referendum and we’ll lose it’”

    You better believe it!

  150. DerekM says:

    @ Rock

    It is called playing the British political system,if we try to do this outside the system it brings in all sorts of constitutional problems but that does not mean we could not.

    Different plan this one is expose westminster and its system for being the lying toerags they are,force them into a yes/no situation over section 30 and watch them squirm,knowing that either choice will lead to a referendum,their choice is agree to section 30 or deny it and watch as we have a referendum anyway and not a UK referendum but an EU referendum.

    Its practically check mate only thing left for May to do is sign A50 and pray that the no vote wins the referendum,how much involvement she will have in that decision depends on her yes/no choice.

  151. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Graham says: 13 March, 2017 at 8:15 pm:

    “shes arrogant and mad enough to do it . Any ideas of what next .”

    Of course we know what to do next, Robert. We activists just sit back with big grins on our faces and wait for the obvious Scottish result from the Joe & Josephine McPublic on the streets of Scotland’s conterness to kick in.

    If there is anything in this World that we Scots don’t like it is some daft Englander gadgie telling Scots we cannot do something or other.

    We usually promptly go right out and bloody well do it anyway just to spite them and to prove to the gyte Englander that they were wrong and to make them look like the bloody fool they most likely are.

  152. heedtracker says:

    SKY and BBC baring their vicious tory teeth, or Murdoch’s ancient fangs.

    One thing seems clear, UK spooks have not or cannot bug Bute House or the SNP, considering how extraordinarily hysterical yoon culture is today. All after M15 were offering SNP anti hacking security advice lately.

  153. Stoker says:

    K1 (or anyone else with the ability):

    There is an article on MSN, from the FT, about our referendums, full of the usual bull but nevertheless gives a good guide as to how the Unionist liars will come at us. Could you archive and post it on this thread as I’m unable to? Hope to be fully operational again, soon, cheers!

  154. ScottishPsyche says:

    I don’t normally have any time for Kevin Schofield, he always comes across as someone who dined out on titibits of gossip from SLab politicians and lost a career when they were voted out. Tonight he did seem relatively normal compared to Matthew Syed who was coming across as a self righteous prick on BBC paper review.

    Schofield also said, interestingly,that although he believed the economic case for Indy was weaker he felt the political case was stronger. Hard to argue against that.

  155. Fireproofjim says:

    Hi, caz-m
    Glad to see you back again.
    Missed your caustic comments.

  156. Graeme Doig says:

    12 hours in and not a peep from the clunking fist.

  157. Swami Backverandah says:

    Brexit Tory David Davies.
    “We have a plan to build a Global Britain,…”

    Trans: if you are a refugee, asylum seeker, or EU migrant living in the BrexitUK, we will SEND YOU BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM!

    Labour abetting the Tories in giving May a blank cheque in the Commons Monday 13 march.

    What a disgrace.

  158. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Graeme Doig –

    🙂

    Aye, good point.

    Here’s hoping he surfaces soon – wouldn’t be the same without him.

  159. Arbroath1320 says:

    Oh boy watching Tory boy on SKY News doing the paper review … he’s going paraplexic over Scottish independence. 😀

  160. caz-m says:

    Hi all, will do a bit of lurking until I pick up the pace again.

    Great posts as per usual.

  161. Tam Jardine says:

    caz-m

    Good to have you back. What a mental day. Nicola spot on to take the initiative. My word the yoon media machine is something to behold when it goes into full propaganda mode!

    The reaction from the EU will be fascinating, not now but once May triggers A50 and the gloves come off.

    For now I’m just amazed at the absolute frothing levels of rage and panic that are caused by a country having a discussion about running her own affairs.

    Patrick Harvie calling for a grown up, respectful debate whilst Anas is busy talking over him about the Scottish Government lying to people. And so it begins…

  162. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @caz-m –

    🙂

    Hoots brother.

  163. Rock says:

    DerekM,

    “@ Rock

    It is called playing the British political system”

    The Scottish parliament voting to ask for permission from Westminster to hold an independence referendum clearly demonstrates that the Scots are not “sovereign”.

    A credible parliament of a proud, “sovereign” people would never do that, even for show.

    An independence referendum would be on our terms, not Westminster’s.

    Robert Peffers has been shouting from the rooftops that Scotland does not need Westminster’s permission to hold an independence referendum and that Scots are “sovereign”.

    I wonder what he has to say about the parliamentary vote to seek permission.

  164. heedtracker says:

    You’ll know we’re really in ref 2, when my Slovene girlfriend starts going Slovenia says NO2 apeshit, btl rancid The Graun, again. Cant wait:D

    Adam Tomkins MSP?Verified account @ProfTomkins 9h9 hours ago
    More
    Looks like Sturgeon’s cunning plan is unravelling already

  165. Robert Louis says:

    Honestly, I’ve been busy laughing my socks off at the yoon hysteria tonight. Not only did Theresa May fail to appreciate the FM really, really, really wasn’t bluffing, now she has moronic clowns telling her to refuse section 30.

    Please Theresa, please, please, please say you won’t allow a referendum.

    What a hoot. Those Tories in London really do not have a clue about Scotland, or our rather canny First Minister.

  166. DerekM says:

    lol there has been a few old faces turning up lately,do you think it has anything to do with that smell that is in the air,you know that smell of freedom 🙂

    Just in time caz the fecht has just started lol welcome back 😉

  167. Swami Backverandah says:

    @heedtracker:
    “SKY and BBC baring their vicious tory teeth, or Murdoch’s ancient fangs.”
    Interesting isn’t it.
    Murdoch usually likes to back a winner, and you’d think the Indy vote will get up this time round, so what’s he playing at?

    Aaaah. He wants the Sky deal, from the Tories. The one that fell through last time because of the illegal and criminal activities of organs of News Corp.

    So it’s his bargaining chip with May.

  168. yesindyref2 says:

    @ScottieDog
    So, to cut a few corners, the Central Bank of Scotland (CBS) issues £10 billion worth of Bonds which get sold, and the CBS gets real money for it. So it’s sitting there with £10 billion of assets, and £10 billion of debts, but they’re say 50 year bonds at 1% (Ireland did that at 0.33% for £1.2 billion).

    Then the CBS does some quantatitive easing for £10 billion and buys those bonds back with it.

    So the CBS is sitting there with £10 billion of cash, plus £10 billion worth of bonds but has to pay itself 1% interest every year (and repay the bonds in 50 years).

    Tell me where I went wrong!

  169. DerekM says:

    @ Rock

    Technically Robert is correct Rock we do not need their permission to hold a referendum,we could go back to the old documents that nobody has used for 700 years and try and figure out what they mean or we can beat them up with their own parliament legislation section 30.

    I like the second choice better,but having options is always good.

    lol maybe one day you will figure out that it is your sovereignty that is allowing you to challenge the British in the first place.

  170. David P says:

    STV 1 – 0 BBC

    BBC1 news, 14 minutes of continuous unionist interviews and comments.

    Compare with Scotland Tonight’s 2vs2 panel interview.

    Simple message, only watch the BBC in order to measure the bias…

  171. geeo says:

    I see some folk think that a Section 30 order is about gaining PERMISSION to hold a referendum…!

    There was me thinking a Section 30 was about making the referendum LEGALLY BINDING .

    We can have a referendum anytime we like, but the Section 30 merely makes it legally binding.

    Jeez… i really hope TM refuses the Section 30 order….. !

  172. Robert Graham says:

    after all this time surly someone south of the border would twig or ask why are we sending all our money to the jocks , when all we get is moaning in return , do you think maybe the penny will drop , might it just be the folks down south are not being told the truth oh dear .Maybe we should call for a UK wide vote and help them out ha ha we would be out by Tuesday last week .

  173. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I’m puzzled as to why this notion is beginning to be aired that “the economic case for indy is more difficult now”. What? With Brexit looming? Seriously??

    Sounds to me like one of those “framing” arguments that needs to be nailed down right from the off.

    We’ve had our pretty little “Brexit Bubble” but it’s going to pop very soon when it bumps into the spiky hard facts to be revealed by the EU negotiators after Art.50 is invoked.

    Clearly one of the attacks that Project Fear 2.0 will attempt is to try to convince people that the inevitable coming changes are all too complex, troublesome and scary for mere mortals to understand, so we plebs should all just cower down in our little box and let our lords and masters in London decide everything for us.

    It’s therefore important to get over that it’s independence, and only independence, that offers a positive, constructive and manageable route to a better future. And all we need to get there is to be willing to trust ourselves.

  174. Macca73 says:

    It’s the beginning of a long road ahead. We can’t allow this to be a re-run of 2014 because nobody wants that. This will be different. The media will be more Vermont than before to try to throw us off track.

    We have to talk to people differently this time. This isn’t about just voting for an independent nation it’s about keeping our trade doors open to countless other nations which we’d benefit from and they would love to work with.

    This time the battle lines will be drawn differently for that reason. Westminster can no longer call on it’s best mates at Deutsche bank or many of it’s long standing Standard Life buddies or Asda or Tesco or Morrisons etc. None of those companies want to be closed off from the outside world and any that DO wish to speak out we’ll send them packing. As an independent country we can attract much of the London business that would feel shut off from a hard Brexit and we’d have the banking skills already on tap.

    We also can’t allow them to turn our First Minister into a hate figure. They did that far too easily last time round so we have to find ways to combat it.

    We’ve got to be wise about it. Pick and choose the fights and let them spout nonsense we have our European neighbours on side this time and plenty of people who would choose to be a part of a new vision if it’s sold to them with honesty and not through a scared media. We’ve got to do it from a strong “it’s not going to be easy but it will be better than the alternative” and that’s what we are going to do. For Scotland and for all of our European friends.

  175. ian m says:

    Earlier twitter suggesting Alex Salmond pushed Nicola into announcing the section 30 never saw what Nicola did to Liar Carmichael in 2014 debate.
    I am not sure why our economic case is weaker this time around
    What is the economic case for us prospering by staying under the heel of Westminster’s boot? A better deal with the EU than the other EU members have inside the EU.
    There is almost no way a deal can be arrived at within the time frame so indy ref should offer a positive option versus still chaos down South

  176. Hamish100 says:

    Can Mundell Carmichael and co give us a guarantee that they won’t concoct a story or lie leak it to the telegraph so that James Cook BBC attacks the first minister . No? . Ok didn’t think so

  177. Big thank you to Nicola,

    will dream tonight of a better land,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CMlYVu9J4g

  178. heedtracker says:

    Swami Backverandah says:
    14 March, 2017 at 12:01 am
    @heedtracker:
    “SKY and BBC baring their vicious tory teeth, or Murdoch’s ancient fangs.”
    Interesting isn’t it.

    Murdoch’s never going to back PR Scotland nation statehood. PR Holyrood puts way too much power in the hands of us the people already. UK has such a vast gulf between the rich and the rest of us, they can never allow us the power to even try to change this. Crash Broon was a great example of how the fake lefties of the UK will never try to change the socio economics that make the rich so rich here. Look at all the Labour Lords and Ladies.

    Its a long slog too. Looking across at countries like Norway, they have had centre left and very left politics in power for a long time, since before WW1. Norway’s socio economic reaction and responses to striking north sea oil were so different for the UK’s for all of this. Denmark’s much the same but Murdoch’s a great example of the massive tory opposition to letting we the people, anywhere near controlling a Scotland that could benefit everyone.

  179. Dr Jim says:

    Funny thing is the media and the Tories think that’s it the FMs done the announcement so wait a couple of weeks for article 50 and we’re away……Wrong!!!

    That’s when Nicola Sturgeon plays the next card just when they think she’s gone quiet and !!Boom!! she’ll do it again

    Mrs May’s going to get the pish ripped out of her every time she thinks she’s getting a foot forward, that’s how Nicola Sturgeon operates she draws you in then !!Ooft!! solar plexus
    This is going to be the most meticulously planned sniper honed deadpool campaign ever seen and it’s going to be epic

    Ten pound bet says Theresa May is a gibbering greetin faced wreck before Christmas if she lasts that long in the job,

  180. Dr Jim says:

    Nearly forgot, make them answer the questions, why us?

    Independence means Independence and we’re going to make a success of it
    and get the best possible deal for Scotland!

    Goose and Gander there

  181. Proud Cybernat says:

    That wee prick from the Daily Mail on Sky ‘news’ paper review saying a poll last year found Ruth Davidson (I think he got her name right) was more popular than the First Minister. If I recall it was nothing more than your typical colonial media spin asking two different questions i.e. was Ruth Davidson good at her job at her job as Scottish Tory leader and was the First Minister doing a good job – two completely different scenarios that bore no relationship or eqivalence. Hell even back then I thought (t)Ruthless was doing a good job as Tory leader – doesn’t mean I in any way support the lying toad. Such is the depth of research of these London telly media pundits – effing clueless.

    The thing is (and this is why they will lose ScotRef) I am genuinely convinced that they believe their own spin; their own shite. I really do. And that delusion is going to come back and bite them big time on the arse, such is their complete an utter ignorance of the issues here in Scotland. Just look at how stunned they were by today’s announcement! That demonstrates just how disconnected these idiots are from the political scene in Scotland – haven’t a bloody Scooby McDoo. And it’ll cost them big time.

    Hell bloody mend them.

    Anybody seen Mr McIntyre OBE yet? Just askin’.

  182. Proud Cybernat says:

    Meant to add…

    I’ve said this before but I think it is worth repeating.

    ScotRef has been called by the First Minister and its legality will be ratified by the Scottish Parliament in the next week or so.

    Project Fear II should be under no illusion. Should they break campaigning rules (breaking purdah like they did last time) and should the BBC present biased coverage (like it did last time – see Prof Robertson et al), and should any last minute bribes be made (which, of course, they have no intention of ever delivering upon anyway) then UNDERSTAND THIS.

    Should YES lose again (very doubtful) THERE WILL BE A THIRD INDYREF. No Ifs, no Buts. If the Yoons want to avoid the ‘neverendum’ scenario THEN THEY MUST LEARN TO PLAY BY THE BLOODY RULES.

    Your choice, Yoons. Don’t ever say you haven’t been told.

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    An appeal from The National:

    We’ve battled hard for this moment – and now it’s time to back us. We need you to stick with us, and to convert other people, help us find new readers.

    We don’t have the resources of other papers. We’ve had to do this the hard way, not unlike the independence movement itself.

    We are unashamedly Yes. We will be your paper of record. If you back us, we’ll help you deliver independence. It’s what we’re here for.

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/15153546.The_National__will_help_deliver_independence_____but_we_need_your_support/

  184. Still Positive says:

    Was at SNP meeting last night and our MSP said they can’t stop a referendum. But if they refuse to recognise an advisory ref then the UN would come down on our side.

    So the UK government, if they have any sense, will allow a Section 30.

    We, in West Dunbartonshire, who voted Yes in 2014 are raring to go.

    Many of us meeting at SNP conference next weekend.

  185. Meg merrilees says:

    Just been looking at the new SNP Indy ref website.

    I think Robert Peffers may want to write to them because this is how it explains the Act of Union:

    5th May, 1707,

    “The Act of Union abolishes the Scottish and English parliaments and creates the UK Parliament in London.”

    Even the BBC has it right http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/historic_moments/newsid_8187000/8187312.stm

    Winnie Ewing reconvened the Scottish Parliament for the first time in 292 years.
    Dr Ewing became an SNP MSP in the first Holyrood elections. As the oldest member, she chaired the first meeting on 12 May 1999.
    Opening the session, the 79-year-old said: “I want to start with the words that I have always wanted either to say or to hear someone else say – the Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25, 1707, is hereby reconvened.”

  186. Dr Ew says:

    Graham fucking Norton… I KNEW it!!!

  187. defo says:

    Double dunter!
    Spring’s sprung
    And hope’s back

    Those poor yoons. They know the ba is burst really, and now they have to go through the frothing motions anyways.
    Dancer !

  188. DerekM says:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/signs-of-intelligence-science-backed-proven-traits-a7626676.html

    Jings i get full marks and there was the wife calling me a drunk,lazy,insomniac with a dark sense of humour and always reading but knows when i have made a mistake.

    Well fuck me it turns out i have genuine intelligence i be flabbergasted lol

  189. Arbroath1320 says:

    Bloody heel I scored 5.5 out of 7 Derek.

    I don’t read … much … other than National.

    I have been know to take occasional 😉 drink but do NOT do drugs hence the half point. 😀

    If they had said drink and/or take drugs I’d have taken the full one point there. 😀

  190. yesindyref2 says:

    Hmm, full marks though I’ve never bothered with weed since getting it in Amsterdam. Why buy shit when you can get the real thing?

  191. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 1.03
    I can see what you are saying,but I can’t agree.
    If they mess with this Campaign and win (I can accept a vote honestly won), they will I am afraid just rinse and repeat any other vote.
    Can’t say I blame them if it’s? saving their Union.

    But as you say….They must learn not to break the rules.

    I would say that I am done with referendums, I would make each and every General Election a vote on keeping to the term’s and conditions of the Treaty of the Union.

    This would be a Reserved matter….Aye it would be a Westminster vote.
    No more section 30,no more wondering if they will play fair this time.
    We were reduced to following ballot boxes last time FFS!
    We can’t keep repeating the same method, espically since we will never be able to organise a free and fair media in this country,while it is governed under the Treaty conditions.
    So I would argue one last time to get it right (Honest) then it’s plan B.

    Have all the MP’s (SNP at this point) stand on a commitment to remove the Scottish parliament from sitting as the Union Parliament.
    Therefore one way or another Scotland can vote itself out out that bloody Treaty.
    But a third referendum would be just setting us up for them to make us look foolish.

  192. meg merrilees says:

    What a wonderful day!!!

  193. woosie says:

    Sky news with huge graphic showing that Scotland would lose £1700 per person after indy. Bottom of the screen states: source Kevin Hague / GERS.

    Desperate stuff from Murdoch. We all know GERS data is deliberately vague, and that Hague is a raving loony. Still, if Murdoch is to achieve his aims, he’ll have to help uk gov, the most corrupt on earth. Rewards from indy 1 are there to see, where irrelevant nobodies ended up on Lords benefits.

  194. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, what a wonderful day, I’m now shattered. I think it’s important we go more out into the wild media world and, well, educate. There’s a lot of misinformation totally decent people have about Independence, the SNP, supporters, our economy, even our size and population! All deliberately fostered by the anti-SNP and anti-Indy media, particualrly the London-based.

    But make a sensible argument and the decent ones can be influenced and dare I say, impressed. We’re making friends with those who have been indoctrinated to hate us, despise us, even have total contempt for us, and that’s very important for after the YES vote and Indy. It needs a cool head but worth it – they are our neighbours and friends, even though in a different country.

    But more than that they know people, they talk, and even some of the people they know might be ex-pat Scots, and they talk with friends and relatives. Just get to that first link in the chain, and perhaps we’re changing NOes to YESsers who we don’t know and won’t meet. But it’s bloody tiring 🙂

    I’m probably going to stick with defence as my “speciality” as I always had an interest and since 2012 have constantly taken the time to catch up (having lost most interest when I got married and we brought up kids – a big gap). I find if we can get something in common, an opinion, an idea, it gets a good reception as that too, is their interest, but stuck with that anti-indy baggage. I think I’m making some progress …

  195. Still Positive says:

    Was at my local SNP branch meeting last night and my MSP said we can have a referendum without a section 30 and if we vote yes then the UN would come down on our side and TM et al could do nothing about it. Although he would prefer if it didn’t come to that.

  196. Richardinho says:

    I think the idea of not engaging with trolls is a fine one: To do so is to allow them to occupy more space than they deserve or is representative of their actual number; plus it only produces heat rather than light. Make no mistake the HWs and JDs of the world will be delighted at the prospect of a new referendum campaign. The best way to spoil their year is to simply ignore them.

    Better to go offline and persuade your friends, family, neighbours and work colleagues.

    But still follow Wings obv!

  197. manandboy says:

    The Unionists are very scared, none more so than the high earners in the politics-media bubble. They fear the loss of income and career as a result of Scottish Independence, after which Scotland’s vast wealth will stop coming to Westminster. They know that Scotland will win this time.

    And oh, the irony. Westminster soon to have their Scottish ‘benefits’ cut. Austerity for the British Establishment, courtesy of the Jocks.

  198. Breeks says:

    A referendum isn’t just the vote, it’s the whole process of a Nation making an important decision. If you cannot articulate the arguments and weight up the pros and cons diligently, then just toss a coin for all the weight the verdict will carry.

    If you screw with the process, corrupt and manipulate the process, just like the media did in 2014, the arguments do not get to the heart of the debate. One side wins, but only wins a vote they have themselves compromised and discredited. It means nothing. It is a cold, depressing indictment of a failed process and nothing more.

    The underlying issue, the reason why people want a referendum in the first place, doesn’t go away, and it will keep resurfacing for as many times as it takes until the argument is dealt with properly. Respect the result??? What, after you’ve treated the debate with outright contempt and skewed the agenda by walking us up the garden path with your contemptible propaganda? I’m rather happy to disappoint you.

    If Unionists genuinely want a stable, united UK, then the best advice I can give them is to pack in all the shite and propaganda, end the distortion of reality and denial of the truth. Have a proper, constructive, mature dialogue. Do not let your argument be presented by the fart in a glass that was Better Together, and then hyped up to absurdity by the BBC. To quote Gandalf in the movies; dark fire will not avail you.

    Frankly, the way I see it, Unionists have to corrupt the narrative because in that straight and honest debate I just mentioned, they don’t have a leg to stand on, and fine they know it. You win or lose on the honest merits of the argument. If you cheat or duck the issue, you waste everybody’s time and we have to start all over again. But then, most Unionists I know have a problem being honest with themselves, and don’t like to have their cosy prejudices examined in daylight.

    Personally, I will NEVER respect the result of a referendum or election won or lost by the mendacity of the BBC or wider media, and the sooner that penny drops at the BBC HQ, the sooner we can get this important constitutional debate underway. If the Unionists tire of “neverendums ” then they really want to grow the fk up and address the constitutional issue properly and constructively exhaust the arguments rather than manipulating the agenda.

    It really isn’t that difficult… The difficult bit is making a progressive case for the Union, especially while arrogant Unionists like Dugdale and Davidson assume they don’t have to bother, and believe the issue gets resolved by parroting claptrap and bullshit ad nauseam.

    Horseshit, no matter beautify packaged, is still horseshit, and it’s the substance which matters to the roses, not the packaging.

  199. manandboy says:

    Breeks, what you have just posted is really rather special. With your agreement I intend to share it with everyone I know.
    Like me, I’m sure they will be inspired by reading it.

    The whole Ref2 debate, you have summed up perfectly where you said:-

    “Frankly, the way I see it, Unionists have to corrupt the narrative because in that straight and honest debate I just mentioned, they don’t have a leg to stand on, and fine they know it. You win or lose on the honest merits of the argument. If you cheat or duck the issue, you waste everybody’s time and we have to start all over again. (edit)

    Personally, I will NEVER respect the result of a referendum or election won or lost by the mendacity of the BBC or wider media, and the sooner that penny drops at the BBC HQ, the sooner we can get this important constitutional debate underway.”

  200. Almannysbunnet says:

    The thing is Laura Kuensberg didn’t need a source she just needed to listen to Nicola’s press conference. Even the NY Times quoted the FM correctly and I’d be surprised if they were at Bute house. For me it was like the Nick Robinson episode in 2014 when I watched Salmond press conference to the international press core. An hour later I listened in disbelief as he blatantly lied that Alex Salmond refused to answer his questions. The common theme is they both work for the BBC.
    We haven’t even had the referendum vote in Holyrood yet and they’re at it again. Batten down the hatches we’re in for 18 months of insults and lies

  201. manandboy says:

    I’ll go further, Breeks, your piece deserves to be read out in both Parliaments and maybe even elsewhere, though perhaps with just a little editing. Alex for one, I’m sure, would be up for it.

  202. robin says:

    in 2014 of course I wanted to win and argued for our freedom as best I could but at no point did I feel confident we would win.
    This time it is different.
    I am calm and determined because I know we will win.
    I.m not in the least surprised the yoons are bricking it because I think they realise they are going to lose.

  203. Ken500 says:

    Can’t stop laughing. Happy. It’s just brilliant.

    Happiest for two years.

    Get rid of fake SKy. Subsidising cheats on steroids.

    They know they are at it. They even admit it.

    What are the Tories liars going to do now?

  204. Still Positive says:

    Breeks @ 4.28 Couldn’t agree more. You put it so much better than many of us could.

    The FM hinted at that when she said the Scottish Government would be honest, the least we should expect is that the other side would be honest too – I won’t haud ma breath on that.

  205. Liz :Rannoch says:

    Good Morning Britain – coming up now- Alex Salmond – is he the ‘puppet master’. Oh and BTW Scotland’s finished – been flipping channels – no bank of England – no currency – no eu. Aargh – thinking of going back to bed!

  206. Macart says:

    So. Theresa May’s statement yesterday. I’m guessing everyone else felt that arrogant condescension didn’t go down very well? Oh, and the statement about game playing from a PM who uses the civil rights of EU residents as ‘bargaining chips’, who talks of playing her cards close to her chest when negotiating? Probably not the soul of sensitivity or diplomacy in the current circumstances right there. Not to mention the glaring hypocrisy and utter lack of self awareness evident in the rhetoric.

    Anyroads, there is something more fundamental for Ms May to consider, but I’m sure she is already perfectly aware of it. She is NOT First Minister of Scotland. Scotland is a partner in a bipartite international treaty and we already had a legal and ‘binding’ referendum with agreed upon outcomes, pledges and assurances.

    The EU referendum was not, however legal and binding. Not until ratified by parliamentary debate and legislation. It was merely consultative. Prior to the vote, there was no white paper, no S30, no consultative or legislative committees… nothing. The only legal and binding referendum was Scotland’s indyref and Westminster arrogance drove a horse and cart through the outcomes to settle a Tory pissing contest. Yet Scots were asked.. scratch that… TOLD to sit down, shut up and accept that the consultative referendum’s result trumped their settled and legally agreed upon outcomes. Even though… even though that outcome was at some constitutional odds with the outcome of their own indyref. Sit down, shut up and just accept.

    Mmmmmm, NAW!

    Something else Ms May will be perfectly aware of. A precedent has been set and her government has just set it. The result of a NON binding and consultative referendum result has been acted upon because of the political weight of popular opinion. To the eagle eyed, this fact will not go unnoticed, nor its ramifications. We don’t require an S30 to enact our own consultative referendum and just as surely the result of popular opinion would be acted upon. It is in fact a great credit to Scotland’s First Minister that she would seek to do what the UK government would not. Legally dot the ‘i’ and cross the ‘t’. Cause the least harm in any outcome.

    There is great talk of betrayal in the mass media today and tbf they’re not wrong about that. There has been a massive and corrosive betrayal within the union. The guilty party however is not the SNP Scottish Government, which is naturally where they will lay the blame. Seein’ as how that’s where they’ve been telt to place it. No, the betrayal was entirely enacted by the UK government and in particular the Conservative party.

    Knowing the result of 2014, Scotland should never have had its constitutional settlement endangered. There should never have been an EU referendum where Scotland was not given an opt out and given that ALL of the above were ignored, then the federal proposal of the Scottish Government to retain membership of both unions should have been given a damn sight more weight by the PM of our union partner. So, yes. Yes there has been a betrayal of the union, but not by Scotland’s First Minister.

    As Ms May and the massed ranks of the media discovered yesterday Ms Sturgeon doesn’t play games and she doesn’t bluff.

    She represents the interests of Scotland by mandate.

  207. People Carrier says:

    Sarah Smith on radio 4 – scotland in Europe route- she us simply making it up as she spoke. She has no idea what the process would be after a referendum.

    This is propaganda of the highest order. May won’t allow a vote before uk leaves…………..try it, just try it.

    Bealin’. Absolutely bealin’. Up with this shite I will not put!!!!

  208. Smallaxe says:

    K1:

    Direct Debit set up.

    https://www.ref.scot/donate

    Peace Always

  209. Liz Rannoch says:

    OK that didn’t work. Post has just disappeared. Anyhoo – been channel flipping – BTW Scotland’s finished.

    On a brighter note Alex Salmond is on Good Morning STV and got them telt. Nigel Farage on 7.10 – should be interesting.

  210. Smallaxe says:

    Moved from last thread!

    Dan says:
    13 March, 2017 at 11:57 am
    “I became a father on Friday and nothing would make me happier than this little man having the chance to live in a free Scotland” ?

    Bob Mack says:
    “Congrats to Dan, and all other parents and grandparents like myself. The best legacy we could leave our young folk is their freedom to choose for themselves.”

    “That’s what I call great news, Dan. Give the wee guy a big kiss for Auld Bob Peffers.”

    Dan, may I add my warmest congratulations to those who have already done so and say these words to your to your child.
    “Welcome little Stranger, Scotland welcomes You”

    The above posts, I think, speak volumes.

    What kind of people would we be if our legacy to our children was to leave them to live under the oppression of Westminster, a “Palace” no less;

    In the 21st-century. When the people employed by “the People”(Us), who are well financially rewarded, whose sole purpose was to lead the “union” in a fit and decent manner for the betterment of the people has (We are witness) openly and unashamedly shown its avariciousness and utter disregard for the welfare of the population of not only Scotland, other places will suffer also.

    Scotland however, is ours and like most other countries we want to govern our own affairs.Nothing more.Once again we will soon have the opportunity to, with nothing more than a pen, pass full stewardship of our nation to our now and yet to be born new Scots who’s birthright it is and always has been.

    I will be the first to admit that I don’t have a clue how it comes to be that the other “partner”, in this “Union” holds such power over us that “permission” and “extra powers” have to be asked, bargained or pleaded for but I know that it’s very wrong.

    Let’s put it Right!

    Peace Always

  211. Les Wilson says:

    Breeks says:

    A quite brilliant posting Breeks, this needs to be spread.
    Kudos

  212. Smallaxe says:

    Breeks & Macart:

    The situation very eloquently stated.

    Thank you, Both.

    Peace Always

  213. Ghillie says:

    Breeks @ 4.28 am

    Would you mibee consider sending your excellent comment to a selection of the Unionist papers?

    I would love to see that read through at least one of them = )

    Or maybe Alex Salmond would read it out on LBC…

  214. Mick Clark says:

    If Scotland is a basket case after three hundred years of an uneven Union
    then why vote to stay that way ?

  215. Ghillie says:

    Ken 500 = ) ‘Happiest for two years.’ 🙂

    I’m even happier today than I was yesterday!

    Scotland’s spirits are rising and we are walking taller already = )

    Oh what a bonny future lies ahead = )

    ScotRef = ) YES!!!

  216. starlaw says:

    What now is the purpose of the House of Lords. Scotland will be well rid of this crowd of spongers and the building they nest in. Last night proved how powerful they actually are .. totally inadequate.

  217. Hamish100 says:

    So we have to wait until we know what the brexit deal is.

    We know what it is “brexit is brexit” now let’s move on to our day job?

    As for the britnats Davidson Dugdale and co watch how they try to declare UDI in Scotland and undermine this nation

  218. Hamish100 says:

    Since May may not get a deal and refuses Westminster a vote why should we wait?

  219. Marker Post says:

    The folks of England and Wales should be envious that Scotland will have a meaningful vote. It’s only the Scottish government that is presenting that option, because it’s certainly not available in Westminster.

  220. robertknight says:

    When the Mayhem Govt. tells the Scottish Parliament to get stuffed, every SNP MP, MSP and MEP needs to resign and stand for re-election on a ticket that if over 50% of the electorate votes SNP, that becomes a mandate to repeal the Act of Union.

    If the electorate should decline the opportunity to do that, then the SNP need only shrug and accept the fact that the electorate are content to be… well, I can’t say, but you get the idea.

  221. David P says:

    In reply to this new unionist idea that “politics is not a game”, could someone remind me why the EU Ref was called?

    Oh yes, to settle an internal discussion about Europe that has been raging within the Tory party for at least thirty years.

    With a side order of defending the Tory party’s right flank against the Kippers…

    Now, who’s talking about silly games again?

  222. Orri says:

    The Parliament of Scotland was never abolished. It was dissolved in the same way as the English one and both reconvened in joint session according to the Treaty. If I remember correctly Scotland avoided an election. Probably for fear that they’d be out on their ears and our new lot instantly repeal out Act of Union. However that only emphasises what should be apparent by the subsequent meeting of those MPs as a Scottish Grand Committee. The Parliament of Great Britain was not an enlarged Parliament of England but rather an ongoing joint session of that and Scotland.

    One thing that slightly winds me up is terming the removal from Holyrood or retention of powers by Westminster as “repatriation”. It is nothing of the sort. Any powers either have derive from the people of Scotland. The SNP stood on a platform of moving more powers from Westminster to Holyrood. Holyrood was created via an electoral process. All powers Holyrood has are by the permission of the electorate of Scotland either directly or via our elected representatives.

    Long story short Westminster did not devolve anything. We, the people of Scotland, delegated power. Any power grab by Westminster is simply that. Putting the cart before the horse but if an independent Scotland is ever tempted to term its parliament a House of Representatives I’d argue instead that it be termed a House of Delegates.

  223. Les Wilson says:

    Watching Mayhem, after hearing about Indy2, it seemed to me she was shaken and spoke nervously.
    Yeah, she was outflanked, the UKOK media et all going bonkers in their anti Scottish line is not going to make things better for her.

    When she is on her own in her office, she must be sitting with her head in her hands. This is only the first shot,she will be out maneuvered again in this high stake game of chess.

    She will be regretting not listening to Scotland when she had the opportunity before she painted herself into a corner.
    It is going to be a full on affair now, as Westminster and the media are not going to allow her to go back on her words.

    Nicola’s ace is the act of Union at the end of the day,by showing the failure of the Union and exposing what really happens will shake Westminster to it’s core. The compliant media here will just not report it, but the European media certainly will.

  224. yesindyref2 says:

    A couple of articulate reasonable young people interviewed on BBC Breakfast live from Holyrood. The YES did very well, makikng the case and wishing he’s done more alst time, I thought for a moment he was going to start arguing with the NO when he had his turn, but instead he just pointed out that there was an uncertainty with the economy with Brexit as there was for Indy.

    The NO uni student nodding intelligently when the YES spoke, making his points intelligently rather than “SNP Bad”, was still NO, but would consider any case made.

    So the balance on BBC was YES 1.25, NO 0.75 !

  225. Hamish100 says:

    Just saw the Angus Robertson interview from Bbc2 last night. The BBC show a picture of Scotland lying close to Norway. Ireland remains complete and England and Wales haven’t moved into the Atlantic.

    What a joke. Cuts down ferry times to Norway though!

  226. People Carrier says:

    Radio 4 – Hyslop being interviewed. Same arguments (euro membership, too poor, currency etc.). Still no answers, still sounds like we don’t have a plan for this. For Christ sake, we’ve been highlighting this for the last 2 years. Get it sorted. Have some decent idea of what we will do, and ffs – sort out the economic argument – are we actually too poor?

    I’m turning into Mr Angry!

  227. Bob Mack says:

    Nicola made it very clear they are printing an honest assessment of Scotland potential answers to questions about trade economy defence etc. No SNP member will speak until that is published.

  228. joannie says:

    Just saw that interview with the two young men on BBC Breakfast. I think the interviewer was disappointed with the guy speaking for the No side, because he spoke respectfully about Nicola Sturgeon and said she had every right in principle to call a referendum. I don’t think that’s what he was supposed to say somehow.

  229. David says:

    Nicola Sturgeon was pushed into indyref2. And thats straight from the horses arse

  230. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh dear, some Tory MSP (Briggs?) actually having the stupidity on BBC to repeat – yes – Mundell’s line! “The question isn’t whether we could have a referenudm it’s should we … should we … divided … most peopel don’t want me it”

    You couldn’t make it up!

  231. heedtracker says:

    Right on cue, dont go, we love you really, lets hear more from you, much more…

    http://archive.is/hUSgX

    “Yet Black shouldn’t give up too soon. She may be disillusioned, but her departure would be a huge loss for parliament. I can think of any number of MPs that parliament would be better off without than her, as her interventions in the Commons are usually sharp and to the point. So I would encourage her to devote more of her time to the work and pensions select committee on which she has served for nearly two years.”

    “Mhairi Black is a remarkable young woman: bright, articulate, mature beyond her years, but I guess it was always predictable that she would find life in parliament frustrating”

    Like clockwork, from the crew that gave us,

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/salmondbell.jpg

  232. yesindyref2 says:

    I think the Scottish Conservative politicians did have a brain last week, but we don’t know who had it because the one who had it had the wisdom to stay quiet and say nothing. Whereas this week it seems to have gone missing completely.

  233. Breeks says:

    Thanks for the kind words, but there’s no copyright on anything I say. If it’s in any way useful to the cause, then dive in and take whatever you can use. You won’t here me complaining of plagerism I promise.
    As for newspapers, I think the online realm is much more immediate and vital. Once you let fly a comment, it’s a leaf in the wind and you never know where it ends up. Hopefully the garden of a Unionist.

  234. JaceF says:

    The NATO thing made me laugh, just look at a map is that Scottish waters between Scotland and Iceland and Norway? Yeah, back in yer box project feart.

  235. Brian Powell says:

    There are many considered, articulate comments on the constitution, history and legalities on these threads and these feed into the arguments for independence but it must be kept central to all of this that we require the political power to carry it through.

    That is the politicians in place so that Governments can speak to Governments. They recognise each other. A hundred positive groups for Independence will be dismissed if Governments have no one to talk to.

    So Sturgeon and the Scottish Government with recognised political allies (other MSPs) can pass laws and policies that will carry Independence forward.

    The shift in elected representatives in power in NI has opened the door for Fianna Fail to develop a plan( a white paper) for a united Ireland. That action will be recognised by the world.

    The point I’m making is all the arguments must be directed to getting elected representatives who represent a future Independent Scotland and that would concentrated in keeping the SNP in power.

  236. schrodingers cat says:

    bbc scotland

    treeza set to refuse section30

    testing the waters for scots reaction, she must have missed tomkins memo

    is there any polling evidence that this tact will drive no2yes?

  237. Capella says:

    Ha Ha first moments of John Baillie’s Call Kaye and Lesley Riddoch’s line isn’t working! Stephen Daisley’s is OK though

  238. schrodingers cat says:

    bb beattie

    lesley riddoch’s phone not working

    daisley gets free reign

  239. Mike says:

    @schrodingers cat

    That’s a report based on a right wing media assertion. Its not based on any actual evidence or fact.

    Westminster intransigence managed to turn an Empire into a Commonwealth.
    Westminster is 0 for 53. Kind of screams a warning don’t you think?

  240. galamcennalath says:

    Saying the Tories on 16% can speak for Scotland, is a bit like saying UKIP on 14% can speak for England.

    Oops, wait a minute, UKIP do speak for England!

    (Figures based on percentages in 2015 GE in England and Scotland)

  241. call me dave says:

    What no UK OK Kaye…. Jings!

    Beattie’s in charge this morning for shortbread’s your call.

    After yesterdays hissie fit at a couple of callers I’m not surprised.

    Prof Tomkins eh! Whats he like, did you hear him this morning, about as useless as Phil Goodlad.

    Gary telling us that May will refuse a referendum until after Scotland leaves the EU…Gospel truth. 🙂

    Me…I’m feeling fine, not elated now, just more determined this time knowing there’s still a long way to go but we’ll do it.

  242. schrodingers cat says:

    Mike
    I know

    I think they are just sounding out scots opinion

    will this refusal move no2yes?

  243. orri says:

    Delay till it’s definite we can’t retain our portion of the UK’s EU membership and thus move the decision from one where, at present, countries have a veto to one where the decision would be by QMV? And as a bonus remove a block of voters who given they might be expelled might be inclined to vote for independence. That’ll be fucking right.

  244. schrodingers cat says:

    dire pish on beattie prog

  245. schrodingers cat says:

    lesley riddoch, born in england, married to an englishman, getting pelters for being anti english

    utter bollox

  246. orri says:

    Obviously I meant the reverse,

    If Scotland’s membership of the EU is via a renegotiation of the UK’s membership then the decision is through QMV. If it’s a completely new membership then there’s scope for a Veto. However the only ones really talking about and trying to imply that any other EU member might Veto Scotland as a new member were the No side. It was never any of the other members that would employ it. It was always the (r)UK subtly hinting they’d do it themselves.

  247. Mike says:

    @schrodingers cat

    “will this refusal move no2yes?”

    Depends on how its perceived.

    The media will go mental trying to present it as Teresa May Boudicca warrior queen standing up against the Tartan Tyrants from the dark North.
    But democrat purists across the whole of the UK will be appalled. This will damage the Conservative party across the whole of the UK and will have deep implications not just in Scotland but NI as well.
    In fact it may have a greater effect in NI than in Scotland.

  248. laukat says:

    I have a wee question for those more knowledgeable than myself.

    I don’t think anyone with even a vague grasp of the Scottish political landscape thinks that the UK government can say no to a referendum the only real question is timing and conditions under which the vote is held with everyone thinking that the UK government holds all the cards therefore the Scottish Government needs some bargaining chips.

    So my question is do the UK government not need the Scottish Governments agreement to enact the Grand Repeal Bill as part of Brexit? If so is that the enough to change who holds the cards?

  249. yesindyref2 says:

    @cat
    They go on about Sturgeon who has an English Grandmother being anti-English.

    Turns out Peter Murrell was born in Norwich.

  250. uno mas says:

    And this time the whole world is sitting up and paying attention.

    http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/internacionales/2017-03-13/escocia-insiste-por-el-referendo/

  251. Macart says:

    Right! That’s the eye bleach applied and paracetamol taken.

    Quick tour of the usual suspects and other than frothing indignance, ill informed guff and shear batshit craziness, one thing stuck out from the latest Tory line.

    ‘Scotland would be going to vote blind’.

    Think about that for a sec. Now, as I understand the timing, the FM said Autumn 2018 to Spring 2019. That would be post Brexit deal reveal and during the negotation process. That’s what[?] Year and a half, two years? Pretty much the whole negotiating period for a brexit, but just prior to closure and finality (for obv reasons).

    The public will know exactly what the Brexit UK side of the deal is. Unless there is something Fluffy and co aren’t telling the public? Unless they have been less than honest in their negotiation intent as stated?

    But let’s take the strategy on face value. In what part of a 1.5 – 2 year period will the Scottish electorate be uninformed as to the state of the Brexit UK deal then?

  252. schrodingers cat says:

    to be fair to daisley

    he called out the morningside pensioner xenophobic rant at lesley

  253. Nana says:

    Well well I leave you all alone for a few days, return to chaos, chaos I tell ye!

    But seriously my hands are strapped up, advised to take a rest but felt the following links to be worthy of posting. I will post occasionally if I see something I think is important.

    I might need strapping for my aching sides due to the hilarious frothing coming from the unionists. All the old fears are being re run, but the funniest has to go to Kevin Hague the dog food seller, you know him? It seems Sky news fell for the line he’s some kind of super dooper economist. Oh dear.

    Links

    Scottish government seeks quick EU deal, sees EU understanding
    http://archive.is/kQu1m

    STATEMENT FROM SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE CONVENTION ON ANNOUNCEMENT OF NEW SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM
    https://www.facebook.com/ScotConvention/posts/1248841655163651

    http://www.businessforscotland.com/business-scotland-responds-nicola-sturgeon-bute-house-speech/

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nicola-sturgeon-has-called-theresa-mays-bluff-this-time-scotland-will-vote-leave-

  254. laukat says:

    The timescale the FM has proposed seems logical when you consider that the exit deal the UK negotiates will at that point be put to all EU parliaments and in some cases devolved administrations such as the Walloon parliament for their approval. As we have have heard over the last years ‘Scotland has one of the most powerful devolved governments in the world’ Surely this is the chance the Unionists have been dreaming of to prove this?

  255. Ken500 says:

    What has Farague got to do with Scotland. SKy nonsense. Liars.

  256. call me dave says:

    @Nana

    Good to see your back. Take care we need you lots ?

  257. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    The Tories are still behind the curve, continuing to uselessly bleat their preconceived mantra of “the Scots don’t want it”, and making themselves look rather pathetic in the process. Methinks they have been caught out believing their own propaganda.

    The real tussle coming isn’t the referendum itself, which is now inevitable, it’s the timing. Mayhem can hope to delay a referendum until after Brexit is complete, but what would that prospect tell the people of Scotland?

    It would be an extraordinary act of harm forced upon an unwilling people and nascent country by a government without an iota of a mandate. May would go down in the annals of history as a wrecker, self-indulging out of malice in an act of sabotage that would ultimately destroy the Union anyway due to an arrogant abuse of good faith and governance.

  258. heedtracker says:

    I might need strapping for my aching sides due to the hilarious frothing coming from the unionists. 😀

    Great to see you back Nana!

  259. DerekM says:

    o/t
    lol i was rather naughty in my youth LA plus i lived in Holland for 3 years enough said.

    I once drank this stuff in Mexico in a wee village,the locals said it was just mescaline,was it hell they had brewed it out of some hallucinogenic,i was tripping out my nut for days.

    lol the wife says aye you may have intelligence but you were lacking in the common sense department until i showed up,ouch she has my number lol

  260. Nana says:

    For anyone who hasn’t seen Alex getting them telt

    here you go

    https://twitter.com/AlexSalmond/status/841369429485195265

  261. Ken500 says:

    Scottish Devolution is rooted in EU Law. When it is repealed so is Devolution. That is a threat to the Scottish Gov. If people in Scotland still want self government they have to vote for Independence. The Tories are a threat to Scotland/Devolution.

  262. Just to pose the question. Since I don’t trust the tories in the slightest, what would happen if they decided to walk away from the E.U exit negotiations without any deal whatsoever in place?
    Does that mean we are dragged out of the E.U immediately, and would have to re-apply for membership after a Yes vote for independence?
    They will use every dirty trick in the book to prevent us gaining our freedom, so I wouldn’t put anything past them.

  263. Could someone explain what a `section 30 order` is,

    looked it up but it is a bit lawyerspeak,

    something about devolving undevolved powers.

  264. stu mac says:

    @Robert Louis – 7.37
    ==================

    You should copy all that and send it to news [at] channel4 [dot] com or c4investigations [at] itn [dot] co [dot] uk

  265. Nana says:

    @call me dave & Heedtracker Thanks guys!

    A few more links.

    http://newsnet.scot/archive/indyref2-call-betrays-downing-street-mis-reading-snp-brexit-stance-bluff/

    https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10529/eu-expert-scotland-can-have-independent-migration-rules-without-any-border-controls

    Scots disabled people’s human rights highlighted at UN
    http://archive.is/KdAEZ

    http://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/13/governments-response-scotlands-referendum-makes-break-almost-inevitable/

    I have seen lots of positive headlines re indyref2 in the foreign press. Too many for me to link to directly. Try googling Spanish news, French news etc.

  266. HandandShrimp says:

    The Yoonery are still maxing out all the way up to 11 on the Project fear froth

    So much for Better Together 2 claiming they were going for a positive case. It is, if anything, wilder than last time. Scotland will be bereft of friends, out of everything, impossible to join the EU or any other body and the ethnic strife will be so bad we will make Somalia look like a Butlin’s Camp.

    Fantastic stuff and actually immense fun to boot into touch. It just sits up and begs to be wellied.

  267. Big Jock says:

    Section 30 is temporarily devolving powers to hold a plebiscite. In other words it makes any referendum binding on both sides. However it’s not necessarily required as stated before.

  268. Lenny Hartley says:

    Laukat re timing in Indy ref 2 , Mayhem has no option but to go with the SG on timing.
    We don’t need their permission it’s just a procedural device smoothing the way. If Mayhem is stupid enough to try and interfere with the referendum then we have it anyway and call in the UN if there are any issues with Mayhem and co not recognising that we have democratically voted to end the Union with England. We are not a colony or a people like the Catalonians inside another country in International law and Scots and I guess English law we are an equal Partner.

  269. Chick McGregor says:

    El Pais has an article today claiming that while Spain would respect Scottish independence if agreed with London, it will still not allow Scotland to remain in the EU, we would have to reapply.
    Salt is rubbed in the wound by them saying it could be a different case for Northern Ireland if they vote for independence.

    Someone needs to remind them where their paella comes from.

  270. Scott says:

    Just heard on Radio 2 news that a source in Spain would veto Scotland joining the EU,its started.

  271. Robert Louis says:

    Orri at 0809am,

    The old Scots Parliament was not dissolved, it was adjourned.

  272. ronnie anderson says:

    They just dont get it.

    listering to Adam Boulton interview & Owen Patterson Tory MP Nicola Sturgeon should have waited to see what deal was on offer ie UK gov negotiating trade deals with other countries ie Scotch Whisky to India ( £4billion +) that Scotland doesn’t benefit from any Tax Revenues . Uk would negotiate trade deals for all Scottish Produce without any agreement of the Scottish gov. hows yer Cocoa .

    There’s a couple of guy’s in Coldstream badly in need of Wee Blue Books . ( voting Independence & we would be paying for our Prescriptions) deluded & ill-informed.

  273. schrodingers cat says:

    Big Jock

    re-Section 30

    this is my understanding, id like more info about this

  274. Robert Louis says:

    Scott,

    Aye here we go again. It isn’t good enough that the ruling party of Government in Spain say just this week that they wouldn’t block indy Scotland in the EU, oh no, the blatantly biased and propagandist BBC have a ‘source’. A ‘source’, FFS, who? Nigel Farage????

    FFS, BBC. Really??

    Tomorrow’s BBC propaganda ‘news’ headlines ‘A ‘source’ said today Nicola Sturgeon is very, very bad, and Scots should ignore her’. In addition, another ‘source’ told the BBC, that the SNP are rubbish’.

    And they then wonder why Scots hate the BBC, and think they are a pack of britnat liars.

  275. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Alex Beveridge @ 10:21,

    The whole problem looming for UKGov is (heh, heh) control. Up until now the Tories have been able to set the news agenda, at least within the UK, but with ScotIndy now announced, the wheels are starting to come off the Brexitbus. And soon it’s going to hit the concrete barrier that is the EU27.

    “Keeping Scotland” is quickly becoming what it transparently became for the last week or two the previous time around – nothing to do with the people of Scotland at all and instead merely a means by which the UKGov can save face.

    But this time around there’s a big difference, it’s not just us on our own. When the bus hits the barrier and falls apart, the whole world and their uncle are going to see the absurd pretensions of Brexitannia for what they truly are.

    With that in mind, the agenda we need to start setting right from the start is Tory UKGov incompetence. When “soft-no’s” get the feeling that the UK is heading for an omnishambles of historic proportions, run for the forseeable future by a bunch of doctrinaire incompetents, it’s “game over”.

  276. stu mac says:

    @eel_loon says:
    13 March, 2017 at 7:56 pm

    Although not really surprised at the reaction of the media today i must say i was shocked of the responses of some work mates today , mostly along the lines of too wee too poor etc .
    ============================================

    It is a long time thing too. When I was in my twenties, back in the late 70s (and still back then a Labour voter who was maybe a bit pro-devolution but still pro-UK) I got taking in a pub to a slightly older guy and Independence came up in the conversation – I think the SNP had been in the news about something I don’t remember now. He was the same, I think his words were ” we couldn’t survive on our own” or something like that.

    Now I’ve never been a super-confident guy and back then was rather introverted and lacking in self belief. Also as I said I wasn’t pro-independence. But I remember being actually shocked that someone – who seemed to me up until that moment to be a toughish, self reliant, kind of guy. Even then, pro-UK and not for independence as I was then I didn’t believe that and I couldn’t understand how he did.

    It still seems strange to me now that someone lacking in confidence as I was then could believe Scotland could go it alone (though back then still believed on balance better in the UK) and another guy who seemed to have much more self belief than me had such a low opinion of his own country. For if you don’t think your own country is up to much surely that betrays some deep seated lack of belief in yourself.

  277. Golfnut says:

    Lots of comments flying about ‘re Nicola asking Westminster’s permission to hold indyref, she didn’t. Her speech was pretty unambiguous.

    She said that she will seek the authority of the Scottish Parliament to agree terms with the UK government on the section 30 order.

    She framed that very precisely, and for good reason.

  278. Mike says:

    I think its time we reminded people in Scotland that the only reason we have a Devolved Parliament at all is because of the threat of Independence and that another No vote removes that threat for the foreseeable future putting the entire Devolution project at serious risk.
    The Tories who have always opposed Devolution will see another No vote as a mandate to end it.
    They have already stated an intent to reserve some Devolved powers post Brexit it wont be a stretch to reserve them all after a No Indy vote.
    Remind people that we are not ONLY fighting for an Indy Parliament but the very continued existence of the Parliament itself.

  279. stu mac says:

    Lack of edit facility!!!

    That should read
    ” I remember being actually shocked that someone – who seemed to me up until that moment to be a toughish, self reliant, kind of guy, could actually have such a lack of belief in his own country.”

  280. HandandShrimp says:

    I can see that Ni might not have to apply if it reunifies with Eire much as East Germany did with West Germany. I don’t have a problem with Scotland applying as an independent country. There isn’t a queue there is a check list. Entry is determined by how quickly the checklist is ticked. Scotland already ticks just about all the boxes. EU law is already embedded in Scottish law and we are fully compliant. Discussion on contributions, seats etc., would need to take place. That is why it is important that we have options before Brexit completes to ensure we can complete the box ticking as seamlessly as possible.

    The EU can of course help here. If set some discussions in motion to explore possibilities (after A50 is triggered) then the whole process will be much simpler. It will have the added benefit of winding up the Yoons but that is just an optional extra 🙂

  281. Robert Louis says:

    Big Jock at 1028am,

    You are correct, a section 30 order is not absolutely essential. It is a legal technicality that could if necessary be ignored.

    You see, you need to remember just what a referendum actually is, it is just like asking people what they think. How anybody can suggest such a thing be banned, is beyond me.

    All these supposed ‘news’ reports today from ‘sources’ saying section 30 order might be refused, is how Westminster works. They are testing public response to such an undemocratic dictatorial move, in order to decide whether to do so. That is what is going on. It is pathetic that so-called ‘journalists’ are prepared to prostitute themselves in this way.

    Aside from putting English troops on the streets of Scotland, their is precious little Westminster can do to prevent a referendum. The grown up response from Westminster would be to understand democracy, and the fundamental human right to self determination involved.

    No Westminster Government should ignore a democratically elected Scottish Government, with a clear electoral mandate and clear vote from the Scots Parliament, requesting a section 30.

  282. Mike says:

    Anybody else notice that the value of the pound plunged again as a result of the House of Lords failing to gain any amendments and the passing of the Brexit bill but didn’t shift a microbe as a result of the Indyref announcement?
    Something that should be shouted from the rooftops.

  283. sandycraig says:

    Anyone notice the wifie on the news last night from Inverness I think, when asked about the referendum?

    “Oh no it’s bad, but if they had had one in the 70s when Scotland had everything, that would have been good. Now Scotland has nothing and we couldn’t manage on our own”

    Well hen for pitys sake think aboot it. If we had it, and now we don’t, whose bloody fault is that.

    Raging at stupidity.

  284. Breeks says:

    “…..the threat of Independence and that another No vote removes that threat for the foreseeable future putting the entire Devolution project at serious risk”.

    Speak for yourself Mike at 10:46

    I will reserve judgement on how the Unionists conduct themselves with their monopoly on broadcast debate before I agree to putting any future Independence Referendum to bed. If they con us again like they conned us 2014, then my personal YES 3 will commence the morning after. Let’s just say they haven’t got off to a good start.

    I’m curious about the “threat” of Independence. Frankly I find it tiresome that we don’t have it already. The “threat” of independence is a bountiful promise that is long over due from my perspective.

  285. Robert Peffers says:

    @DerekM says: 14 March, 2017 at 12:08 am:

    “lol maybe one day you will figure out that it is your sovereignty that is allowing you to challenge the British in the first place.”

    I doubt very much, Derek, that Rock will figure anything out. To mash up a very old quote Rock is now in a very hard place.

    ” … or we can beat them up with their own parliament legislation section 30.”

    Actually we do not have to beat them up or even try to.

    All we need do is to go ahead and do what we wish and let them attempt to stop or prevent our exercise of what, under Scots law, is our legal sovereignty and let them take legal action.

    Assuming they do so under English law we then ignore it and let them then attempt to enforce English law upon us. Then again ignore it and continue to do our own thing. I assume they will then go to the Westminster instigated Supreme Court and we then must ignore that decision even in the unlikely event that the SC backs Scots law.

    Short of sending in the United Kingdom troops, Just what can Westminster do then?

    They have a few options including taking the matter to the EU courts and I imagine they would get short shrift there or go to the UN. I imagine that the UN would not want to take on the task but whatever it does it would make the World take an interest in the current events that I’m certain the Westminster Mafia would wish to avoid at all costs.

    I repeat what I have said on many occasions. Westminster is officially named, “Her Majesty’s Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.

    It is thus described as a bipartite Kingdom even although the name of Northern Ireland was added to the title by the Westminster Acts of 1800/1. However, history teaches that all Ireland became annexed to the Kingdom of England in 1542 and thus could not be a third kingdom joining the bipartite union on 1800/1.

    Which leaves Westminster with a big problem for Westminster has not only claimed, without any proper legislation, that the Treaty of Union of 1707, (and here I quote the secretary of State for Scotland, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

    So the Westminster claim is a self contradiction and any court must clearly see the implications. If as they claim the Treaty of Union has indeed extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland then the United Kingdom as a bipartite union no longer exists.

    That is – a united Kingdom cannot exist as a single kingdom. It cannot claim to be either the Kingdom of England or the Kingdom of Scotland so just what is it?

    Perhaps just a Kingdom but the kingdom of what? It cannot be the Kingdom of Britain as there are several parts of Britain still outwith Westminster control.

    It cannot be the Kingdom of Scotland as they claim that was extinguished and the Kingdom of England no longer exists as they claim it is now called the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland but that cannot be if the Scottish Kingdom is extinguished.

    So we get to the point where reality must be faced. Westminster has made itself into the de facto parliament of the country of England that is now using EVEL to dominate the other three countries and is treating them as England’s dominions.

    Quite simply the Kingdom of England has just assumed control of the Kingdom of Scotland and so it is not in fact a United Kingdom parliament. Yet if it is not the united kingdom parliament it is not the member state of the EU and the World can see the illegal take over of Scotland as both a kingdom and a country.

    There just isn’t enough pop-corn factories in the World to provide for the World wide demand such a court case would provide.

  286. galamcennalath says:

    Only 24hours are things are going well.

    By Easter we should have all the same old feeble Yoon arguments out in the open and thoroughly debunked.

    Truth is, they will wait a month and replay them all again.

    The problem with that strategy is that between now and ScotRef with each iteration of the same fake news, another batch of NO voters will be converted!

    @Nana. Thanks for the links. Glad to see you back. 🙂

  287. Ken500 says:

    Whisky companies use Scottish water and barley and tax evade under the UK tax regime. Pay no tax on massive profits.

  288. McDuff says:

    HandandShrimp

    The problem is the chief spokesman for the EU Margaritis Schinas said yesterday the “Barroso doctrine would apply“ to Scotland so there is something playing out here and I don`t know what it is.

  289. Capella says:

    @ Hi Nana – great to see you’re back at the keyboard but don’t strain those typing muscles! What an exciting week this is turning out to be.

    Side splitting comedy on the Call Kaye/John Beattie show today.

    I’m thinking of offering my services as a telecomms engineer. The BBC seem to have great difficulty in communication links with YES supporters. Word of advice – test the link before the show starts then we can hear what the YES supporters are saying. Hint.
    I don’t know anything about it either but that seems to be a qualification for the post in the BBC.

  290. sensibledave says:

    laukat 9:42 am

    You wrote “I don’t think anyone with even a vague grasp of the Scottish political landscape thinks that the UK government can say no to a referendum the only real question is timing and conditions under which the vote is held with everyone thinking that the UK government holds all the cards therefore the Scottish Government needs some bargaining chips.”

    I think we can all agree on the key issue here. My personal view is that will be a lot of jousting for the next year or so – but no change of position by anyone. The UK government will not so “no” to indyref2 – it can’t.

    They will continually make the argument that Scottish voters would be voting blind (we are already hearing that mantra repeated). They will argue that Scottish voters will be in the best position to decide on whether they want to stay, or leave, the UK – once the final deal is agreed and known. That will not be until both Westminster and the EU have ratified whatever deal
    may, or may not, have been agreed. On that basis, they will continue to argue that Ms Sturgeon’s targeted dates will be too soon. They will argue that the most “reasonable” approach is for the people to defer a momentous decision regarding their future until they know the outcome of the Brexit negotiations.

    Please note that I am not taking a “position”above – I am just saying what I think will happen.

  291. Dr Jim says:

    Many of us read the comments that MSN allow on their site and if in Scotland on WOS we were to replicate the bile that comes up from England Stu would be getting a visit from the polis

    The anti Scottish vitriol that pours over the border from down south is vomit inducing yet the Media never make mention of it, indeed the mostly try and portray it they other way round

    It seems that being anti Scottish is patriotic while being anti English is unacceptably vile and nationalistic
    and this has been cultivated and nurtured for years in English society in that somehow all peoples of the world are seen as less than credible and indeed hostile people if they’re not English
    And the thing is the English are so brainwashed by their own propaganda they don’t even know they’re doing it which means they don’t even care when they do it because they think they have that right just by being English

    Change the various English accents for American ones and the attitude is the same, an inbuilt arrogance that tells them they are and should be in charge of the world and if the world isn’t behaving to their liking it must be changed for their own good and that’s why we have Brexit because the rest of the world is different and can’t be controlled so we leave them and then threaten them with undermining their control of their own countries

    Which brings me to Scottish unionists and what part of that is it they have trouble seeing and do they think when they grow up they hope to somehow become English or be accepted as one of the people with the aforementioned attitudes
    because I’m here to tell them it will never happen

    I’m the product of an English Mum and a Scottish Dad, in Wolverhampton where my Mum was from I’m treated to all the usual anti Scottish “banter” and it’s my home my family say even though I’m a delusional idiot who doesn’t understand how England works and even though my education was in all ways vastly superior to my relatives, and they acknowledge that (kind of them) I’m still only a daft Scotsman from a beautiful but stupid and pointless country and why would I want to live there anyway

    Now if I replied to my relatives banter with the same logic in reverse and cut out the fact they are my family they would describe me as anti english and probably want to punch me in the face and that’s because they are too thick and intolerant to know or care that they’re doing it because to them it’s patriotic banter because I’ve just been brought up in a stupid country and will never understand

    I give you England
    Can’t change them, can’t kill them because we’re related to them but, Scottish unionists you’ll never be one of them. I am and I’m still not

    Do you not see how that works yet

  292. Chick McGregor says:

    HandandShrimp, McDuff

    Reading between the lines, I’d guess Gibralter could be a sacrificial pawn this time, last time it was Barroso’s bid for NATO chief.

  293. Nana says:

    Here’s Pilar this morning explaining the Spanish press reporting on EU status
    https://twitter.com/pilaraymara/status/841552467800293377

    On the £

    FTSE 250 hits fresh record high on M&A activity and pound rises as Sturgeon calls for second Scottish independence referendum
    http://archive.is/t2OFs

    Pound To Euro Exchange Rate Falls Following Brexit Bill Passage
    http://archive.is/MXcFz

    Interesting
    https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/841602283947347968

  294. Cadogan Enright says:

    @not sensible Dave

    the ‘Brexit Deal’ will have to be put to 27 EU parliaments as well as 13 regional parliaments before it is signed off

    Only Westminister will not get a real say thanks to Teresa’s control freakery

    Brilliant move by Nicola to make Scotland one of the countries that actually gets consulted about the deal

    I see Indiegogo is £103,670 – does that mean we can start to push Independence Live?

    75% delivered with only £2,200 and 2 AND A HALF DAYS TO GO
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/glasgow-studio-more-freedom#/

  295. heedtracker says:

    Different Graun story about their Scotland region every time you look now,

    19m ago
    10:56
    At Westminster it is assumed that Theresa May shelved plans to trigger article 50 today because of Nicola Sturgeon’s announcement yesterday calling for a second Scottish independence referendum. On his Channel 4 News blog Gary Gibbon has an alternative theory.

  296. joannie says:

    @McDuff – I can’t decide whether the EU spokesperson is being obtuse or they’re planning to use Scottish independence as a stick to beat the UK with in negotiations – ie, Do as we say or we’ll guarantee Scotland immediate entry to the EU.

  297. heedtracker says:

    Is that so Graun?

    Politics
    Politics live with Andrew Sparrow
    Scotland will leave EU even if votes for independence soon, UK government says- Politics live

  298. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    sensibledave @ 11:09:

    That will not be until both Westminster and the EU have ratified whatever deal may, or may not, have been agreed.

    You don’t seem to have been paying enough attention, insensible. The deal will already have been made clear by the Autumn of 2018, because (funnily enough) it has to be ratified by all those sovereign parliaments within the EU. And they (funnily enough) don’t do that overnight at the whim of the UKGov.

    So there will be plenty of time to know exactly what the deal will be before Brexit actually happens.

    (And besides, the general form of the deal will likely already be well known long before then, thanks to the other EU countries if not the secretive UK.)

    A richly ironic contrast with the EURef, where no-one had a damn clue what was being offered, and still don’t!

  299. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Guys. TV and radio. Complain every time you catch them out. They will just waffle. They will know that we are picking up on their lies and false reporting.
    Still think there is a good place for bill boards around the country.
    Thinking of getting business cards made up with the wings web address on it. To hand out or just leave around.
    Remember every vote matters. Do not alienate any one. No mater how tempted.

  300. heedtracker says:

    “Hugo Rifkind in the Times (paywall) is not sure who would lead the no campaign in a second independence referendum.
    Who, indeed, will do any of it? Scottish Labour would struggle to fill a minibus. Will Jim Murphy still travel from village to town with his Irn Bru crate? Who is the next Alistair Darling, masterminding the whole shebang? Ruth Davidson still exists,”

    Graun’s having fun today. Crash Gordo must be considering if he’s a cometh the hour cometh the man kind of NO camp leader. An outlier, aswell as an out and out liar. Think of the glory Gordo, if you win, the English will finally love you, forever.

  301. Breeks says:

    The section 30 agreement is a red herring… kinda. It’s Hobson’s choice for Theresa May.

    If Teresa grants it, then ScotRef happens and she looks weak. If she refuses, Theresa May is an anti-democratic Ogre and ScotRef will still happen, but as a Scotland only affair empowered by Scottish sovereignty, not U.K. sovereignty. Theresa May loses control of the referendum, and in technical reality, loses Scotland too because with a sovereign Scottish parliament sailing under its own steam, the Act of Union is already at an end.

    I expect Nicola will get the Section 30 agreement, but the bigger question may be at what price.

    We need to be very cautious about any new “Edinburgh Agreement” which allowed the Unionists to drive a coach and horses through the campaign itself like last time. We should be very wary of the Electoral Commission having any kind of say, we should demand foreign observers, and enshrine legally enforceable parameters on acceptable broadcasting. I hope you are listening SNP, because you weren’t in 2014.

    Between you and me, it’s a rockier path, but I hope Theresa May says no, and that the resulting Constitutional crisis ends up in the Scottish Court of Session, as it must, and not the UK Supreme Court.

  302. Mike says:

    Breeks

    I suggest you read my post again. You’ve misinterpreted its context.

  303. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Here is the news
    Another action-filled adventure
    Here is the news
    All the worst from the world convention

  304. Thepnr says:

    Let’s assume Scotland does win her Independence referendum before Brexit has concluded then obviously at that point all Scotlands citizens are still EU citizens.

    A few short months later say, the UK formally leaves the EU then what of Scotland’s position?

    I think this is where the “holding pen” idea would kick in, obviously there would be a great many areas, fisheries for example, the level of EU contributions an iScotland would make or commitment to join the Euro ect to be agreed first before any membership would become official.

    All of which would take some time of course and we would also be negotiating our exit from the rUK at the same time. Since at that moment we would still be part of the UK then any deal they made with the EU would apply to Scotland too, such as WTO tariffs on exports and imports. Although it is believed that even after the UK leaves these negotiations will take many years so nothing might change for quite a while and we could get our negotiations with the UK and EU finished before much has actually happened.

    What I do think though that we could get while all this is going on is a cast iron guarantee from the EU, the “holding pen” that on completion of iScotland’s exit from the UK and formal signing of the new treaties between iScotand and the EU then we’re full members again this time in our own right.

    So what I’m saying is we might temporarily be out and actually reapplying, i.e until the breakaway from the UK is complete and we have reached agreement with the EU on a number of matters specific to Scotland. Then we would be straight back in again, probably without any need whatsoever for a vote in the EU parliament.

    We’ll see, but I believe it will be something along those lines.

  305. schrodingers cat says:

    mcduff

    worrying developement
    the yoons will be slavering over that announcement

    efta/eea holding pen membership anyone?

  306. Breeks says:

    … and as for voting blind???

    Might I remind you Guy Verhofstadt is the EU’s chief Brexit Negotiator. I rather suspect the people of Scotland will know chapter and verse of any Brexit deal long before it happens.

    In fact, why don’t we invite him to Scotland to specifically do just that? Bring a wee delegation too and have a mini summit. And, yes, of course you can bring your European Press entourage…

  307. alex says:

    LAST Time I voted Remain based on the promised Federalism to the max if we voted to remain, and we got nothing, so this time and voting to leave

  308. HandandShrimp says:

    Heedtracker

    I was kind of hoping the off the wall Loyalist types of Scotland United, or whatever they are called, would do it.

    They won’t be able to hide the crazy for long.

    I can’t see Gordon doing it, Lord Darling? Can’t see that either.

    Willie Rennie?….Yes please

  309. sandycraig says:

    Dr Jim……..1112am. Excellent.

    Not long ago I was reading the Bruce Trilogy by Nigel Tranter, and I came across a passage with his interpretation of the events when King Edward was killed by a red hot poker. Painful!

    When Malcom, Earl of Lennox, a hater of violence was told the news he said “What is it that is in these English, this savagery, butchery.

    The Bruce’s wife Queen Elizabeth replied, ” It is conviction, straight from god, that they are superior. Always they are assumed that they are superior, right. There is no question. Therefore others must be wrong, and if wrong, inferior.

    All men are inferior to the English. They do not require to say it, even think it–they know it! And inferior creatures are lesser men, scarcely men at all! They cannot conceive themselves in place of such–and so can inflict these terrible savageries on others.

    For they cannot feel it in themselves, being otherwise. Being a different creation, superior, English!”

    You recognize anyone from that? Probably more than half of the Commons and most of the Lords.

    How it would have been good to have Nigel Tranter around us now.

  310. sensibledave says:

    Robert J. Sutherland 11:19 am

    You wrote: “So there will be plenty of time to know exactly what the deal will be before Brexit actually happens.”

    (And besides, the general form of the deal will likely already be well known long before then, thanks to the other EU countries if not the secretive UK.

    I disagree. I believe that it is the nature of these things that deals are not agreed until they absolutely have to be – i.e. at the 11th hour, as the parties posture and hold out until the last possible moment. Therefore on that basis, I do not believe that anyone will be able to say what the final deal will look like in Ms Sturgeon’s timescales.

    The truth is neither of us actually know – but we can fill the next couple of years arguing about what we think will happen.

  311. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breeks @ 11:39,

    Slight correction. Verhofstadt is the EU Parliament’s chief negotiator. Michel Barnier is the EU Commission’s chief negotiator, which (with all due respect) may be the more influential of the two.

    Other than that, though, your suggestion to invite any or all of them here, with the press, is True Genius!

  312. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Graham says: 14 March, 2017 at 12:20 am:

    “after all this time surly someone south of the border would twig or ask why are we sending all our money to the jocks , when all we get is moaning in return.”

    I spent all day over on the Guardian’s site educating the ignorant native Englanders on just that point.

    It is highly hilarious how those simple souls are so ignorant and trusting of the Westminster Establishment.

    This particular episode was more or less the usual fare. There were many outright insulting terms used and much derogatory stuff about the SG and our First Minister.

    Which, of course, escaped their comprehension that if they insult the properly elected First Minister and the SG then by implication they insult the large majority of Scots who elected both.

    Then we had the usual trot out of the several really idiotic and well worn old myths and, of course, no one ever backing up any of it with actual facts or figures.

    You know the kind of thing I refer to, “It stands to reason …”, when there is absolutely nothing of reasoning or figures to support their easily to explode myths.

    ” … “We send you our English money and all you do is complain it isn’t enough”. So you explain that in the first place not only is it United Kingdom Treasury money and last time we looked Scotland was still being taxed as part of the United Kingdom but that as the Scottish per capita GDP was consistently higher than any other country in the UK then we Scots were on average paying in more than our fair share of that UK treasury money.

    Which, of course, leads to the next idiocy, “… But there’s more English tax payers so we are subsidising everyone else” Err! No! You see when you do the books in any accountancy situation you have to do two sides to every entry. The assets and the debits or debts. That means if there are more Englanders paying in there are also more Englanders to be supported by the money the Englanders have contributed and there are factually more people on benefits in London than in the rest of the UK together.

    And so it continued all day. Yet still there was always another numptie along to trot the same old idiocy again and again yet not one of them could come up with any proof of their claims. It really is the case that the numpties read or hear the lies and are so intent upon wishing it were true that they never question the claim of the Westminster Establishment.

  313. Mike says:

    BBC still harping on about the “Once in a generation” promise that was never made by anybody to anybody.

    And they will continue to do so until somebody points out that there never was a promise regarding a once in a generation vote.

    So next time somebody from the SNP is interviewed and it comes up FFS challenge it!

    https://moriduraalt.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-once-in-lifetime-once-in-generation.html

  314. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    sensibledave @ 11:44,

    You are welcome to your opinion, but that only seems to demonstrate the oh-so-typical utter lack of understanding of the mindset of our continental neighbours. They don’t like Brit-style last-minute bodges.

    There are 27 parliaments involved, FGS. How on earth are they all going to ratify something at the midnight hour?

    This kind of woolly Brexiteer thinking has beset the whole process so far, but it’s not going to last for anything like two years. So dream on.

  315. HandandShrimp says:

    Sensible

    I am pretty sure Juncker said that the two year A50 had to include time for the other 27 countries to ratify the deal. This means that the substance should be clear for all by Xmas 18 at the latest and maybe before. Consequently, the proposed timescales are more than adequate to cover detail of Brexit prior to voting. Sept 18 might be tight if things get fraught but March 19 will not. May could just go for full hard Brexit in 10 months time and let the FO negotiate trade deals over the coming years.

    The timing is essential to allow Scotland time to set their case to the EU before being pulled out of the EU at the end of A50 in April 2019. There is nothing illogical about the proposal at all.

  316. Nana says:

    RT Brexit: An independent Scotland would have a “friendly reception” across Europe, Alex Salmond says …

    video here…

    https://twitter.com/swissifg/status/841566975356723200

  317. schrodingers cat says:

    the arguement about knowing what deal the uk cuts with the eu, assumes there will be a deal

    not certain

  318. sensibledave says:

    HandandShrimp 11:58 am

    You wrote “The timing is essential to allow Scotland time to set their case to the EU before being pulled out of the EU at the end of A50 in April 2019. There is nothing illogical about the proposal at all.”

    … I am not arguing with you Hanandshrimp, I don’t know (nor does anyone else) how this will play out. The mistake that people so often make here is that no one else has a brain other than Ms Sturgeon.

    Of course these are exciting times for SNP supporters and reasons for renewed optimism, but you have to keep thinking. You know that the UK Government will have been expecting or planning a strategy for if/when Ms Sturgeon made her pronouncements. She most certainly came out earlier than expected but, because she had painted herself into a corner, they knew she would have to make this move at some point, I assume.

    As written in my previous comments, I am guessing that Ms May will aim for the moral high ground and attempt to create a position where she is seen and portrayed as the “reasonable” one. She will argue that there is no downside to Scotland waiting a few extra months to see Brexit happen – and then make an informed decision on Independence. She will probably accuse Ms Sturgeon of desperation and playing a dangerous game of putting her personal ambitions ahead of the interests of the Scottish people and that her tactics are designed simply to wreck rather than actually achieve clarity out of “last chance desperation”. Ms May will want to portray herself as the reasonable stateswoman compared to the image she will want to portray of Ms Sturgeon as single-issue, opportunist wrecker .

    It will be interesting to see if that is the way she goes and if she can make any progress with that approach.

    Exciting times if you are interested in politics!

  319. Proud Cybernat says:

    Does it really matter if we walk blind over the Brexit cliff-edge? Does it help much if we actually see the bottom of the cliff?

  320. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 12:07:

    not certain

    Crystal ball on the blink, then, cat? =laugh=

  321. Thepnr says:

    @sensibledave

    I like you so much better when your reasonable and to be honest I agree with you. That sounds a likely scenario for May to play, coming across as the wounded party. This will only be efective in those areas where she already has a good deal of support. In Scotland as you know she has very little support.

    So it will likely be a losing strategy as Scotland doesn’t actually need a Section 30 order to hold a referendum. The Section 30 order only makes the result legally binding on both parties.

    So say May refuses one the gut feeling is that can only increase support for Independence especially with those yet to make their mind up. We will have a referendum anyway and if Yes wins? Then what? Well I reckon the EU would accept the result so too would the UN.

    That would leave May looking pretty stupid wouldn’t you think.

  322. stop wasting time on the NO-hopers,

    don`t even try and argue with them,they are irrelevant, they are never going to be pro Scottish,

    they are a distraction to the goal,

    50% +1 is what we need,

    even soft No`s are a waste of time,

    all we need are the `maybe`s`and getting them out to vote Yes on the day.

  323. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    sensibledave @ 12:16,

    Well, good luck with that “TM the reasonable” trope. It’s looking threadbare already. “Moral high ground”, by pandering to xenophobic hysteria and pretending Nanny knows best for the poor benighted North British natives? “TM the nasty enforcer” looks far more realistic.

    And once Art.50 is enacted and the EU27 react, it will be “TM the bag lady”.

  324. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 14 March, 2017 at 11:09 am:

    “They will continually make the argument that Scottish voters would be voting blind (we are already hearing that mantra repeated). “

    Aye! Sensibledave, indeed they are but their problem is that the Scottish electorate are now more alert to the lies and misdirection of the Westminster Establishment and the Westminster propaganda machines.

    I spent all day yesterday over on the Guardian website and quite honestly I haven’t heard so much sheer Delete ignorance and repeated misconceptions in many a long day.

    The biggy seemed to be the sheer ignorance of how England is funded and governed in relation to the other countries of the laughably titled United Kingdom.

    There were no real arguments or figures quoted by them just the same old daft mantras over and over again but all coupled to much insulting terms especially against the FM and SNP. Yet none of it was ever explained as to why there was so much, in your face, English/British, blood & soil, Nationalism.

    For example the oft repeated or very similar, “But we send you our English money and all you Jocks do is complain”.

    It whooshed right over their heads when it was explained that the money they were claiming was, “English taxpayers money”, was nothing of the kind for several very good reasons. Mainly because the money is United Kingdom Treasury Money and does not come from England alone.

    It flies over their ignorant heads that the Scots per capita GDP is, in an average year, higher than any other country in the United Kingdom.

    Thus the average Scot contributes more per head than any other country in the United Kingdom and that is only half of any accounting figure. In accountancy there are always two sides to the equation. To understand the totals you must consider both the assets and the debts or debits.

    So the real calculation is not to compare the respective debit or the respective credits but to compare the relative totals. So first of it is not English raised revenues and neither is it English debits. It is foolish to look at the English credits and then compare that with the Scots debits.

    Then there is the fact that there is no English Block Grants as only England is funded directly as the United Kingdom, hus there are no actual figures for England.

    So it boils down to this – The Scots pay into the Treasury a whole lot more than the Scots get returned as a Block Grant and we are thus subsidising the rest of the UK.

    England, being funded as the UK, gets many things paid for directly as UK assets that really do not benefit the rest of the UK but are funded with UK funds. National Museums, galleries, opera, theatre, The Greenwich Observatory, The London Bowl, The London Eye, Heathrow and rail and road terminals, The Olympic Stadium and Village, London Cross-Rail, New London Sewerage System. et al.

    So the bland statement, “We send you our English taxpayer’s money”, is utter ignorant bullshit.

    Quite simply the Scots pay in more than they get out and the English, being net importers of food/drink, power and fuel, (while Scots are net exporters of all three commodities), are racking up debts by having a trade deficit. Westminster then claims that England makes up the difference in, “Invisible”, earnings but that is shorthand for, “Hidden Earnings”, and among them is the Scottish products that leave the UK via English ports and airports that Westminster accounts as English exports. Then there is the revenues of oil & gas that are accounted as being from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, but between 98% and 95% of which are extracted from Scottish territorial waters. Not to mention the national Grid Connection charge scam where Westminster charges generators more for adding a kilowatt of electric power to the grid and compounds this theft by subsidising generators close to London for each kilowatt they add to the national grid. Factually Scotland exports over 25% of her generated power annually.

  325. orri says:

    If I were a representative of any of the other 27 EU nations that the UK has to convince I’d certainly not sign anything deal knowing that if it involved Scottish territories or resources that our referendum might render it null and void.

    That’s what May and the rest of her merry band of Brexiteers need to take on board. No one in the world is as stupid or naive as they are. The SNP have a mandate contingent on events that have now taken place. The only dispute might be that technically it only gets triggered once the UK is outside the EU. Cameron got the UK into this mess by not having a plan. The Leave side certainly didn’t have one.

  326. HandandShrimp says:

    Dave

    Yes these are exciting times. I really enjoyed the last campaign and never got the “it is so divisive” thing. Perhaps my circle of Yes and No friends are just nice.

    I think it would be unwise to leave it too long. However, perhaps May will actually engage with the devolved assemblies. I see rumblings in NI too so it isn’t just Scotland that feels that she has not been an honest broker so far.

  327. Jack Murphy says:

    Proud Cybernat said at 8:10 pm last night:-
    “The only source Kuenssberg should concern herself with is the PRIMARY source i.e. Nicola Sturgeon. Had she taken the time to actually LISTEN to the words spoken by the PRIMARY source she would have known that all her SECONDARY sources were speaking a pile of steaming keech.
    But, of course, the PRIMARY source didn’t say what Kuenssberg wanted so was ‘ignored’ in preference of the keech.”

    I’m pleased to reveal the Primary Source,without the BBC explanation for the hard of understanding:-
    Full Statement plus Questions and Answers

    http://tinyurl.com/h68djgw

  328. t42 says:

    JILL LAWLESS and GREGORY KATZ
    Associated Press
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_BRITAIN_BREXIT_SCOTLAND?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-03-13-11-11-50

    clearly their article on scotland was written a week ago since it doesnt pickup latest polls and repeats the fake “back of the EU queue” line.

    This fake EU queue will be slow considering Turkey is in front of Scotland!lol!

  329. Dorothy Devine says:

    Jack Murphy , I just clicked on your link and found a gabbling , lying leader of the Ruth Harrison Davidson Party frothing about not consulting Holyrood and the FM having the brass neck to dare to hold an ‘unwanted ‘referendum – nobody in Scotland wants one doncha know!

    She spoke so fast I though she’d trip over her own spittle!

  330. Nana says:

    Terrific

    James O’Brien Destroys Brexiteers Argument Against Scottish Independence | LBC

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DiRitIHM04&feature=youtu.be

  331. gus1940 says:

    Ch4 News about to wheel out Uncle Tom Gordon Wilson – I suppose it could be worse it might have been the arch tractor Uncle Tom Sillars.

  332. Rock says:

    DerekM,

    “@ Rock

    Technically Robert is correct Rock we do not need their permission to hold a referendum”

    That is how Robert Peffers’ pretendy “sovereignty” works.

    We don’t need Westminster’s permission, but we will ask for it anyway.

  333. Rock says:

    DerekM,

    “lol maybe one day you will figure out that it is your sovereignty that is allowing you to challenge the British in the first place.”

    A “sovereign” country makes its own decisions.

    Only countries which are not “sovereign” fight for independence and “sovereignty”, as we have been doing for the last 310 years.

    There is no such thing as a “sovereign” colony.

    It is not rocket science.

  334. Rock says:

    yesindyref2,

    “An appeal from The National”

    No doubt you will be able to afford more than the £5 you could afford for WOS.

    yesindyref2,

    “To pick up what Rev says, all I gave was £5, and posted as much on the first thread.

    Am I ashamed it’s so little? Why should I be? It’s all I can afford at the moment.”

  335. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Rock, you are Gordon Wilson and I claim my five quid!

  336. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “All we need do is to go ahead and do what we wish and let them attempt to stop or prevent our exercise of what, under Scots law, is our legal sovereignty and let them take legal action.”

    Another mighty boast from your armchair.

    The Scottish parliament and First Minister are bound to operate within their limited non-sovereign powers and that is why they will seek permission from Westminster.

    Anything else would be UDI.

    The Yes movement has hardly 50% support.

    There is no way Scotland’s MPs and MSPs could be sure of a majority if they stood for re-election in such a scenario.

    So much for your repeated shite about not needing permission.

    The First Minister of Scotland, who I am sure knows more about what she is talking about than you do, has categorically stated that the Scottish parliament will seek permission to hold a referendum.

    Who in their right mind would hold a non-binding referendum without permission and then go and ask for permission to hold another binding one?

  337. DerekM says:

    So when the scotref vote takes place will you vote Rock.

    According to your thinking you have no right to use your sovereign power to vote in a Scottish constitutional question since you do not believe it exists.

    Well if sovereignty does not exist then we should all just eat our cereal and climb back in the UK gimp box,because even if we vote yes to indy it will not matter as we are not sovereign so westminster can just ignore us as usual.

    On the contrary westminster are shitting bricks and out to attack our sovereign rights to hold a referendum by trying to claim sovereignty over us.

    Yes it is just a word but in the legal world and i know how much you hate lawyers it is a powerful word.

    The argument is not are we sovereign it is how can we use what is left of it to beat another country claiming sovereignty over us.

    The day we are free will be the day we regain our full sovereignty.

  338. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    Or Jim Sillars? Or Loki!

  339. Rock says:

    DerekM,

    “According to your thinking you have no right to use your sovereign power to vote in a Scottish constitutional question since you do not believe it exists.”

    It is upto you to try and convert a simple matter into rocket science if you want.

    Have you been voting in elections in Scotland?

    Where did the universal right to vote come from and when?

  340. Rock says:

    DerekM,

    “The argument is not are we sovereign it is how can we use what is left of it to beat another country claiming sovereignty over us.

    The day we are free will be the day we regain our full sovereignty.”

    You are all but admitting that we are not “sovereign” at the moment.

  341. DerekM says:

    No Rock we are arguing that our sovereignty has been diminished it has not been erased completely by those who wish to own us.

    Sovereignty is just another word for independence therefore by not being independent our sovereignty is being suppressed by another nations idea of sovereignty which is being imposed on us.

    By changing those circumstances and becoming independent we regain our full sovereignty,except for the tiny part we lend to the EU which we can get back if we want no problem through A50 if we choose to do so.

    And there is the kicker in all this – if we choose to do so.

    Ever wonder why the yoons are so desperate to either remove that choice or make us choose wrong.



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