Some things are simple
Judging by the first 24 hours, we’re in for a two-year festival of utter horror from the UK and Scottish media. Yesterday saw a never-ending parade of metrosplaining idiots dragged willingly in front of cameras and microphones to pontificate their clueless and mind-numbingly ignorant drivel about Scotland.
It wasn’t possible to keep track of it all, because it was frequently happening on five channels at once, and it was harder still to watch it for any extended period of time without hurling a brick through the screen in frustration at the offensive stupidity of it.
Feeding into that was a stream of Scottish politicians who actually did know better, but who are too catastrophically dim to adapt to changing circumstances and had no strategy other than to endlessly repeat the same cretinous soundbites over and over.
(Adam Tomkins in particular was ubiquitous, spending what felt like several hours on various airwaves reciting the same brainless 10-second schtick forever.)
The constitutional politics of the UK and Scotland are in flux, and many aspects of the situation are complicated. But quite a lot of them aren’t, and if we’re all going to make it through the next two years without stabbing each other in the throat, it’d be a lot better if everyone accepted the things that are definite, empirical, indisputable facts.
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FACT 1: THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL CONFLICT REQUIRING RESOLUTION
Scotland voted to stay in the UK in 2014, and it also voted to stay in the EU in 2016. It cannot have both of those things. They are, unavoidably, mutually exclusive.
That conflict has to be resolved, and the only remotely credible way to do it is to have another referendum in which those two options are presented clearly and honestly and the electorate choose which one they prefer.
It is clearly not acceptable to say “But Scotland voted No in 2014 so it has to do whatever the UK says now!” when that No vote was secured on an absolutely explicit promise that it meant staying in the EU, when we now know it means the opposite.
A victory won on a demonstrable fraud, as Lance Armstrong would unhappily attest, is void. You can’t say “I suckered you, but it’s done now so you have no comeback, ha ha!” and expect to be treated with any dignity and respect. (Unless you’re “Rangers”, of course, but let’s not get into THAT can of worms again right now.)
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FACT 2: SCOTLAND IS DIVIDED OVER HAVING A SECOND REFERENDUM
The line repeated ad nauseum by every Unionist yesterday was “the vast majority of Scots have told us in poll after poll that they don’t want another referendum”.
This is self-evident drivel, based on selectively and semantically torturing poll data far beyond the point of endurance. It is plainly absurd to assert that roughly half of Scots want independence – which is what every poll has shown for three years – yet that they DON’T want the opportunity to vote for it.
An eight-year-old child would laugh in the face of anyone making such a proposition.
It is equally true that half of Scots don’t want a referendum. But the other half are only divided over the precise timing, ie whether they want it to happen in 18 months or a couple of years. To try to pretend with a straight face that “I want a referendum in two years” really means “I don’t want a referendum” is starkly imbecilic.
Public opinion is pretty evenly split, and only a liar would try to tell you otherwise.
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FACT 3: THE ISSUE OF A MANDATE HAS BEEN SETTLED
However, as it happens the opinion of the public in this matter at this point in time is irrelevant, because the public has already made that decision, in May 2016.
So all-consuming is the panicked insanity of the Unionists that Willie Rennie and Alex Cole-Hamilton of the Liberal Democrats felt able to go on TV and radio at the weekend insisting that the SNP hadn’t won an election in which they secured a landslide bigger than any achieved by Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair.
It’s alarming that professional politicians apparently fail to understand the most basic principles of Scottish and British democracy. In both Westminster and Holyrood we have representative parliaments, not delegative ones. Any policy for which a majority of votes can be assembled is a legitimate one.
(Don’t want to take our word for that? Ask Ruth Davidson.)
Besides the practical legalities it carries additional moral weight if it was expressly detailed in the governing party’s manifesto, and that’s quite undeniably the case with a second referendum. The SNP’s 2016 manifesto spelled out in the most unambiguous terms possible what would constitute the trigger for one:
In the full advance knowledge of that policy, the electorate delivered the SNP back to power with a larger vote share than the next two parties put together, and the scenario duly unfolded. In a Parliament which was specifically designed to prevent majorities, the government will nevertheless be able to assemble enough votes to pass a second referendum bill, and the result of that vote becomes the de facto will of the people.
Democratically, that’s the end of the matter. That’s how Parliament works, that’s how things are decided. There is absolutely no requirement for one party to get 50% of the popular vote, nor for it to win a Parliamentary majority on its own. If you don’t like the rules, either start a revolution or suck it up.
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FACT 4: A POST-BREXIT REFERENDUM IS THE SAME AS A BLOCKED ONE
A few of the marginally less demented Unionist pundits (such as Alex Massie and Hugo Rifkind) are beginning to coalesce hesitantly around the idea that while Theresa May cannot defensibly flat-out refuse a second referendum, she could grant one under the condition that it was delayed until after the UK had left the EU.
This, however, is like allowing a condemned man an appeal against his sentence, on the condition that it was only held after he had been executed.
Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum. The sole purpose of the referendum is to give the Scottish people the chance to escape that fate. A delayed referendum obviously fails in that purpose, and is therefore not fit for that purpose. It is a non-credible option.
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It would be a better world for everyone if the debate from this point on was founded on mutual acceptance of these four unarguable facts. We’re not building our hopes up.
Concise and to the point. There should be no toleration of arguing against facts.
For comedy relief, I made the mistake of watching Sky News Papers Roundup 1/2 hour last night.
Hopefully this level of utterly nasty incompetence continues until IR2 – the guy from DM is probably worth more votes than No Truth Ruth.
Liars always make simple thing “complicated”.
At the last Referendum we were telt that an Independent Scotland could not stay in the EU, but England could. Now we are telt that Englerland can come oot and we cannae stay in, even if we are already a member. Complicated? Lies?
An excellent distillation of the facts. Indispensable information (as usual) for us when we encounter questions from people wanting information but basing their arguments on newspapers and TV coverage.
Maybe add that the “once in a generation” comment was a personal opinion of one person not a SNP promise.
Excellent, excellent summary of current situation. If only we had other journalists within the UK prepared to put their ego’s and sense of colonial global dominance on hold for a few minutes to actually write in a similar rational way.
The democratic mandate for the indyref 2 is incontrovertible. It was, as shown above, set out in clear unambiguous terms in the SNP manifesto just last year. The SNP were duly re-elected.
Sadly, I think this time around will be no different to the last time, with the media (including Channel 4 news) having already spent the last 24 hours spouting wholly demonstrable lies and unfounded speculative nonsense not based upon facts.
A lot of information peddled about Scotland and Scottish Independence since yesterday has just been out right lies, especially from the BBC.
Even today, Ben Brown telling us that people in Scotland don’t want another referendum, we would be out of EU and the Spanish would block us. Fortunately his guest pointed out most of his failings.
However, the point is this, the whole of the unionist news media, TV and print can just tell lies, and they will tell lies, and there is nothing to stop them.
If we do lose this one, I believe it will be solely down to the power of the lying unionist media.
On Fact 2, I believe many have referendum fatigue and will switch off from any debate until much nearer the time, that’s if they engage at all. It was dispiriting to read some friends on facebook last night saying they are sick of it, time to get on with living your life etc. I don’t know how they voted last time, I suspect Yes, but it seems they are switching off. Will they switch back on?
I would hope any campaigning doesn’t start until we’re well into 2018. We have the council elections to focus on, then folk will need a break. The last thing we need in my opinion is street stalls everywhere this summer and autumn.
I’ll certainly not be doing my usual door to door leafleting until much nearer the time and hopefully this time, the Yes campaign can give us something a bit more credible to deliver than the pathetic Yes paper.
A source tells me that the moon doesn’t want to come out tonight such was the level of the howling at it yesterday.
All these soundbites helped us lose the last referendum , the constant parade of Unionists on every TV channel, being allowed to spew their venom . It will be exactly the same this time but I think they will really up their game . I think they will want to kill off independence once and for all this time . Our hands are pretty much tied as we have no media on our side ,( excluding yourself of course ).
Lies and (most of) the media will continue to be our biggest enemies. The trick is going to be not to lose our collective rag and keep on trying to put the alternative view…
Little hope as the BBC are still scouring the EU to find people that will say Scotland will need to go to the back of the queue. Heard it again at 10am on Radio 2 news.
The last point is equally true for certain independence-supporting commentators, who argued for Brexit on the grounds that the EU was an undemocratic, corporatist behemoth, even though every man and his dog understood that a Leave vote would end up with the hard Tory Brexit we’re now seeing unravel.
It’s particularly true of those who were too cowardly to publicly back Brexit for fear of siding with the Tories, and having gotten the result they clearly wanted deep-down without having to get their hands dirty, they don’t want to have to nail their colours to the mast by making the argument for Scotland to leave the EU. And they know they’d lose anyway.
The Unionists want Scotland to vote on whether to shut the stable door or not after the horse has bolted.
Al Jazeera have a very good article by an Alistair Sloan…
Should Scotland and N Ireland leave the UK after Brexit, the term ‘Little England’ will really come into its own.
link to aje.io
If the unrelenting waves of pish flooding from a panicked media are anything to go by, your sensible words are likely to fall on deaf ears.
Still, we live in hope.
Stu – you are no doubt correct a huge torrent of crap is coming our way.
Why not start a new fundraiser to get you “hands on” help so you can do what you are good at, and others help out with all other tasks (e.g. edit a new WBB, distribute etc.)
As I posted on Wee Ginger Dug:
We need a centralised page or site that comprehensively debunks every unionist myth: about not getting into the EU, having to use the Euro, pensions, oil revenues, trade figures, whatever other trite tripe they come away with. We need to be able to direct naysayers to one comprehensively-researched website that will answer any and all of their questions. Because if we can’t, it will never fly. It’s too time-consuming to have to go round the net researching stuff with figures that may be challenged. We need the correct figures and answers in one place. period. One site, comprehensively catalogued, with subsections for various sections: financial, sociological, international, etc. Easy and clear to navigate, with a decent search engine. Would do it myself but don’t know how.
That way we don’t have to argue, we can just point people in the direction of the truth and let them do their own research. If they even want to believe it’s the truth anyway, mind you, cos all of this braindead ‘fake news’ and ‘alternative facts’ American rubbish, basically existing to cover the lying orange-hued bahookie of an insane president, has done the idea of consensus reality and information a great deal of harm. Still, if you can give them an answer to their questions…you just never know who we could convert. And the postal vote MUST be monitored by an independent country or agency. PERIOD. Not falling for that Tory-counted rubbish again.
It was great to hear John Humphrys has his mojo back! After recent gentle pawing of almost all politicians he has interviewed in a chummy giggly way. Fiona Hyslop was treated to the old Humphrys this morning on radio 4. A marked difference in manner. Humphrys loves the clubby in-crowd kind of politician who will wink back at him when he’s licking their face like a puppy. The SNP are held to a different standard of questioning.
The big difference this time is that Brexit negotiations will be plastered all over the media. I can only imagine that they are going to be messy, and will lay bare the full idiocy and sheer unpreparedness of Westminster to deal with them.
Incidentally, has anyone seen any reaction to the devolved powers? I can’t imagine that Westminster is going to be too happy to even discuss devolved powers coming back from EU while there is a referendum on the horizon. Or maybe those will be the focus of their next “vow”? The next meeting of the devolved administrations should be interesting. Waiting for some reaction from Ireland too. This could all get very interesting indeed.
On BBC Scotland phone in this morning, Stephen Daisley started by correctly quoting the “once in a generation opportunity” quote by Alex Salmond but by the end he was talking about a “once in a lifetime event”. A very careless slippage in the language.
I have previously been given the chance of a promotion but didn’t get it. Less than two years later, when a new, and even better, job came up, I went for it and got it. Much the same applies to choosing a house of a type that doesn’t come on the market much, or the chance to travel.
Not getting the opportunity the first time does not mean that you can never take any opportunities ever again. What sort of a nation would that make us if we refused any future opportunities?
No, I’m not holding out much hope for that either. The meeja and political class over the past two and half years, but particularly yesterday, have already set the bar pretty low. It appears they’ll easily limbo dance under that and still have room to wave their hands.
Great dissection as usual Rev.
Anyroads. This time round I’m not really up for debating the same tired old bullshit with the bubble set. Nor am I up for answering every fucking question imaginable on possible hypothetical diverse future scenarios ad nauseum.
No. This time I’d rather the opposition answered some questions. They have plenty to answer too. They won last time out (we’re all aware of the hows and the whys). They won and they didn’t deliver better togetherland.
They won and when the economic poop hit the fan, their broad shoulders looked decidedly stooped. They won and ships weren’t delivered. They won and oil workers lost their jobs and wage packets in the thousands. They won and our last remaining steel works were endangered. HMRC was dismantled, retailers shut down en masse.
They won and austerity worsened. Pensions became a joke, benefits have been slashed or discontinued altogether. They won and went ahead with a referendum which has placed our membership of the EU under direct threat. It doesn’t matter whether you agree or disagree with that membership as a Scot. It does matter that the decision was taken out of the Scottish electorates hands against their express wishes and against not one, but three legally binding mandates. A referendum, a GE and an SE result.
It does matter that we’ve been told our settlement, our opinion, our vote, our partneship is completely worthless.
THAT matters.
So answer the damn question. Where is the Better Together YOU promised the Scottish electorate?
Why do people think that visiting a polling station more than once every couple of years is too much too manage? I can get down to the local school on a weekly basis if necessary.
I don’t think that May will point blank refuse a section 30 order. However, she will definitely try to stall a Scottish referendum until after BREXIT.
I understand a consultative ref may be held if May refuses point blank, but what if she just keeps stalling? What if she promises consent, but not now. What then – does Nicola agree to hold it late, just to secure a legal referendum, or does she tell May to take a hike and hold a consultative ref?
Interesting times. 🙂
How can the EU take May and Co seriously when there is turmoil now over the constituional situation in the UK?
I wonder if there are smiles on the faces of EU officials today? The Scots have tossed a caber into May’s muddle!
She has to watch her back now, two fronts opening, even the MSM down south say she has brought it upon herself, check the Guardian on that!
ConservativeHome are coming up with Vow2, albeit minus Gordo, offering a “New version of Britain” to Scotland.
What utter nonesense. May had her chance at the conference in Scotland and simply snarled!
This new Britain they talk about is all about being the force in the world, nothing about equal partnership at home or even DevoMax!
Nicola Sturgeon’s sense of timing causing the postponement of Article 50 (denied of course by No10) was perfect!
Yes Highland did a good montage of UKOK baddery
link to yeshighland.net
@REV – why don’t you run a ‘Unionist Myth Busting Site’ referred to by Graham above?
Alert – Tommy shepherd on daily politics now.
OT
Tommy Shepherd on BBC2 Daily Politics. Now.
Should be good.
IMO a consultative referendum would be highly problematic for the yoons. How would they approach such a no-win challenge? The non-binding nature of a consultative referendum may seriously affect yoon turnout, but a YES win would effectively be the end of the union.
Aye, Nicola should push May into a corner on this. No delays no dragging of feet. Get her to refuse a ref, and hold a consultative one anyway.
Barely 24 hours since the campaign kicked off, and the yoons are already in meltdown.
Interesting times. 🙂
“Why not start a new fundraiser to get you “hands on” help”
Dude, we’ve actually got a fundraiser HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. Donations still open for nearly three weeks 🙂
Kezia Dugtits on 5live this very second trying to push these canards.
There was me watching 100 days (yesterday evening – BBC News 24).
Bloke in UK, Woman in USA (both presenters).
Turns out both were Tory politicians in waiting. Actually made my other half (English) shout at the screen. Simply belittling Scotland and spewing out Tory edict.
Rev: “Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum.”
Careful now. You’re a man of the people, Stu (sincerely) – no need for you to echo the party line. Many layers to thissssssss.
“Careful now. You’re a man of the people, Stu (sincerely) – no need for you to echo the party line.”
No, that is the clearly stated stipulation as per the SNP manifesto. It may not be the reason that everyone wants independence, but it’s unarguably the justification for having second vote now.
Kezia Dugtits on 5live now, spluttering and stuttering her way through these canards
succinctly put Macart, couldn’t add to your comment, very well said.
Syd
@Luigi
It’s more difficult for May than that. We don’t an indeed never really required a referendum of any kind. That is simply the preferred method of the SG and its much to their credit.
All that is required is specific mandate.
If May declines or fudges the route of referendum, then a snap SE or wait for a GE will do just as effectively. The SNP need only seek a specific mandate on a manifesto commitment in a legal and binding ballot.
PM May is in a hard place of her OWN making. As the FM stated, ‘we didn’t ask to be here or be put in this position’. We didn’t start or cause this stooshie. I’d like to think though that we’ll finish it. 😉
Stu
I understand why one would want indyref2 before the uk leaves, the idea from nicola being that we will know the shape of the eu deal will be by autumn 2018-spring 2019.
however, the prospect of no deal is very real, indeed, anna soubray and an snp mp have said that treeza is set to storm out of brexit negotiations after the german elections this autumn. Indeed, if indyref2 is held in spring 2019, there is no reason why treeza couldnt just pull the plug 2 weeks before indyref2.
I think we are likely to be out of the eu before we can hold indyref2
The foundations laid out plainly and convincingly. Only an imbecile would challenge those points.
But hey, I’m quite comfortable for the NO campaign to proceed in an utterly imbecilic manner!
They really are going to find it difficult to put together a coherent case for the Union. Last time they struggled and they had to make all sorts of promises to change the nature of their Union to win. This time, a hard Brexit isolationist Tory ruled Union is going to be a very difficult sell.
So, ideally they will continue to flap about in the gutter bleeding support.
Everything has changed, sort of. Here’s a good article from three years ago which makes even more sense now with Brexit …
link to archive.is
“Britain is in a state of self denial, sitting at the bottom of European league tables, but convinced it still rules the waves. The aspirations of the SNP may seem ambitious, but all they are really proposing is to be a normal European country.”
Playing #scotref bingo listening to Kez on daily politics and got housey-housey in 45 seconds
On EU statements it must be borne in mind that Article 50 has not been activated yet. The letter has not even been written, apparently, let alone sent yet.
The EU cannot talk about what ifs. Once Article 50 has been formally activated the prospect of keeping hold of 1/3 of the landmass of the treacherous UK, a part with a long history of independent nationhood with many of the trappings of that status intact, with large oil reserves, enormous renewable energy potential, the largest, most productive fishery left in the EU, the best qualified population in the EU and the place which voted strongly, in every area to Remain will change their tune.
Already our friends in the EU are urging the Commission to change their tune, those voices will grow. Many of our EU partners are hurt and angry about Brexit and welcome the prospect of iScotland as a genuinely constructive partner. We will, along with the Irish, be the Britain they always wanted but never got.
Macart @ 11:51,
I like that. On the front foot, not the back.
Asking the questions, and not least that vital one: whatever happened to “Better Together”?
Yep Rev those be the facts.
The other fact will be the yoons will lie their silly little heads off again.
But there is a big yoon elephant in the room who are they going to get to lead better together mark two and will they call it better together again.
The return of better together.
Not so better together as last time.
The Question: The Poll:
Perhaps the referendum question might be rephrased to ask “Do you believe Scotland is a country” Yes or No
If the answer is Yes then it’s self evident that all rights privileges and power accorded to every normal country should be the same in Scotland
If the answer is No then you accept the proposition that Scotland although allowed a name is a province of England and all power should then be returned to the government of that country
I’d be really really interested to see the outcome of that question, can we do a poll Stu?
Tommy Shepherd on Daily Politics worse than useless.
Owned by Dugdale ffs !!
Kesia Dugdale call ing Tommy Shephard a liar on Daily Politica. 15 Billion black hole grrrrrrrr
Now Adam Tomkins saying SNP has no mandate. Grrrrrrrrrr
@Robert J. Sutherland
*Waits patiently behind front door to pounce on first BT Rep that chaps*
Grrrrrrrrr! 😀
Fucking Bastard BBC. Listening to pound shop Ruth and Tommy Shepherd. Poundshop left to rant and rave a pack of utter bullshite and lies unchallenged while Tommy gets interrupted the very second he opens his mouth.
Nothing Pound shop says is challenged. Nothing!
The 15 billion deficit lie the value of NS Oil the mandate to hold the referendum. All of it spewed out by pound shop none of it challenged or questioned.
Tommy could barely utter a sentence before he was pounced on.
AAAAAGH Fuck em all.
Kez speaking about revenue for oil down would someone ask these people where the Revenue goes Fuel duty vat all duties go to London and we get pocket money.Ask these questions a Tory I asked about this mumble,mumble.
You’ve gotta laugh at Diity Doug, squealing on Daily Politics right now:
£15 billion deficit – Aye Right, that’s under UK rule.
Collapse of oil price – let’s look at this. In September, 2014, the price of Brent Crude was roughly $100 per barrell. The UK government’s tax take was 70% – $70 per barrell, of which Scotland got 10% – $7.
Today Brent Crude stands at $51.66 (let’s call it $50).
So, at a 70% tax take, an Independent Scotland would get $35. Aye, oil is a hardship to us.
Then, Adam Tomkins – the Earth is flat. I fear his head will explode somewhere between now and the day of the referendum.
harry mcaye says:
One word …. Brexit
I cannot see the negotiations and the future portrayals of the UK being anything other than a monumental shit storm.
Most importantly, perhaps, I also believe the unfolding future vision of the UK is not the one many/most Scottish Leave voters expected. The economic chaos of a hard Brexit awaits at the bottom of the cliff edge. Scots will be queueing up for the YES escape.
And now that utter twat Tomkins is left unchallenged while he also spews bullshite about a lack of mandate and legitimacy.
Tommy constantly interrupted over and over. Can barely get a sentence out.
Absolute bastard of a channel.
FFS lets get an early anti BBC protest going ASAP! Before I lose my TV to rage.
Tommy Sheppard playing a blinder on Daily Politics
Walter Scott @ 11.49 Yes, Humphrys was on true UKOK form, as was Naughtie on the same programme, kindly offering up “too wee, too poor” vox pops from Paisley.
Any SNP people and Yessers generally who find themselves in front of a BBC microphone should preface their answers with a reminder to the public (and the interviewer) that we all know the BBC’s charter demands that it supports the continuance of the “precious” Union.
There’s yer impartiality.
Ahem… the Latin phrase meaning to the point of inducing vomiting is correctly spelt ad nauseam. Just saying.
@Holebender
Yeah, already spotted it after I’d posted. (shrugs sheepishly) 🙂
Jesus Christ Teresa May cant even keep a straight face as she says she has been working side by side with the devolved nations of the UK.
Corbyn has already caved in over a hard Brexit the Government now has its mandate to do what it wants and he is now standing arguing for a Soft Brexit.
UNfuckingbelievable.
There is another danger in delaying the referendum to late 2018.
Businesses and research bodies plan their activities several years ahead. Whilst in the EU, Scotland has been part of many academic and scientific joint research projects – the funding decisions will now be made on the assumption that Scotland will no longer be available. This will cost jobs with the financial/fiscal knock-on effects.
The same applies to business planning.
This is why I fear that it is almost too late already to announce a referendum, let alone declare that it won’t be held for 18 months.
I hope someone can reassure me that I’ve got it all wrong!
Mike at 12:34
There’s one on Sunday 26 March! For more detail see
link to gb.eventbu.com
seems dugdale and tomkin agree, treeza will/should NOT oppose section30
@Arbroath 1320
If you’re reading L.A., we might need to spring clean the dark room. Get some air freshener, flowers, whale song mood music, maxipak of headache pills.
That kinda thing 🙂
Great read, will use relentlessly:D
Although its like being in the eye of a hurricane of Britishness out here.
Meanwhile not only has the EU sunk big money into the proposed high capacity interlink electricity cable between Aberdeen and Norway but Nova the tidal energy people have just received EU cash.
link to energyvoice.com
I know there are things like institutional inertia but these suggest the risk/benefit calculation has taken no account of the Brexit. Now why might that be?
Westminster might be dialling back on renewable energy, in part not wishing to generate too much good news in Scotland. Watch them sell of the defence assets like Fort George really quickly before we take full control of them.
There will likely be another fire sale of oil and gas exploration rights as well. Ensuring the proceeds will accrue to the Treasury in Whitehall, not Edinburgh in iScotland. There will be a lot of that.
But the EU will come to the party to replace the UK as a keen investor in Scotland’s renewable energy generation AND our ability to export it to the EU and EEA without having to push it through Little England.
If the EU do build their interconnect spine up the middle of the North Sea then it would connect that pipe to Norway to the entire continent.
Stuff the oil fund, we will be able to fund a stonking Sovereign Wealth Fund out of electrickery exports alone.
The EU sees its energy future as part serried ranks of solar thermal plants and solar panels in Spain and North Africa. Sundry wind and hydro generators and nuclear on the central continent and stacks of wind, tidal and wave energy in the North. We aren’t the only northern European country with lots of little islands with fast tidal races around them.
We did a sea kayaking course off the West Coast and were given a crash course in reading a sailing chart with kayaking in mind, noting that many races are too fast to kayak against. So you either have to time your course so it running in your favour or you have to ship out and wait for the tide to turn or slacken. Little gaps between small island which can easily accommodate a couple of tidal turbines at least. We can leave the monster at the top end of Jura to roar undisturbed but we can take some energy from the rest.
The trick will be to extract enough revenue from them for: the local community, the council and Scotgov without killing the golden goose.
The best thing about tidal energy is it is almost entirely predictable unlike wind or rainfall. In hundreds of millions of years when the moon is too far away to generate the tides of today it will not be so good. But then the landscape will have changed until then we can make hay while the moon orbits.
@Graham B
Thanks for that. But why isn’t it more widely known? This is the first Ive heard of it.
Who ever is organising this needs to get it out there mainstream ASAP.
Saw a real peach of a newspaper summariser on BBC World News earlier by the name of David Buick. Usual “Scotland is a basket case and you will all be eating grass ” type pish. Because, uniquely amongst Northern European nations of less than 10 million , we cannot possibly cope without Westminster.
Interesting to look back in Hansard and see similar comments about India, Malta, Rhodesia, Aden, Cyprus etc etc.
Just the standard Westminster condescension.
corbyn going on the issue of no deal
The BBC is already in full propaganda ministry mode already. Have a look at today’s ‘Daily Politics’ where the abysmal Jo Cockburn acted as helpmeet to La Kezia and the ubiquitous Adam Tomkins and an extra opponent for Tommy Sheppard. Quite extraordinary bias.
George Saravelos, currency strategist at Deutsche Bank, believes that sterling could fall much further, and close to parity with the US dollar:
“I think the market is slowly starting to realise that Brexit is anything but priced in.”
“How can you price in an event of incredible complexity that has never happened before? We remain very bearish on the pound — our forecast is for a move close to $1.05.”
The currency’s tanking.
Well played May.
Scotland raised the sand without Oil revenue £54Billion. The year before £50Billion + £4Billion in Oil revenues. The Oil ring fenced Corporation tax is 30%. Plus 10% supplementary tax. Since Jan 2016. In 2010 – oil price was higher. PRT was 50% and Supplementary tax was 30% = 80%. Osborne raised it 11% to 80%. PRT on fields before 1993 is 35%. The Oil sector is picking up but higher Oil prices can mean higher prices. Swings and roundabout.
Look it up.
The UK raised £533Billion in taxes. Take £54Billion away. = £479Billion divide by 11 = £46.5Billion (pro rata). The rest of the UK Borrows and spend £100Billion. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow abc Trident all a waste of public money, with more credible alternatives.
Scotland could save £1Billion on Trident, £1Billion on minimum pricing. £3Billion? Tax evasion. Gain £4Billion in Oil revenues (UK tax regime), Not pay £3.5Billion on rest of the UK debt. = £12.5Billion. Scotland could borrow £7Billion to invest in the economy. Scotland would get more in CAP payments, renewable invest and Grants from the EU. £20Billion+
The Tories have taken £20Billion from the poorer and given it to the wealthy. Cuts in NHS/Education and welfare benefits.
IR (5million pop) raises €50Billion in taxes and pays higher pension and welfare benefits. More fairer and equal.
barrossa principle getting aired,
I’m actually hoping May is stupid enough to put a block on indyref2. It’d be a lot easier to win via the ScotParl on a snap election.
We’d also be gone before May has a chance to pull the plug on A50 talks.
I’m not sure even May is that stupid/arrogant though….
As with 2014, it’s noticeable that international press coverage is often much better informed than the UK media.
Pound falls again today. Just wait til Article 50 triggered along with Article 30 to see that slump turn into a collapse.
I also fully expect the EU, after Article 50 triggered, to confirm that Scotland will be welcome in own right.
Mike (12:29pm)
We feel your pain Mucker, we feel your pain! I blame the person being interviewed not the interviewer.
All our people are well aware how the script goes by now and should be ready, when being interrupted, to firmly and politely state something along the lines of; I see you’re allowing whoever to continue spouting a load of nonsense uninterrupted without challenge, if you extend me the same courtesy I’ll give you the truthfully version.
We know how these lying discredited barstewards play the game and we should be ready for them each and every time. This time around we need to put a bit of bite into our strategy and responses, see McCarts post at 11:51am, it’s time we put the Yoon Goons on the canvas with haymaker after haymaker.
Mr or Mrs Nice, when dealing with BUM activity, have to be left in the dressing room this time around. We have to go on the attack, no more soaking up and rolling with the punches. Our people need to step it up a gear or two and start publicly exposing these frauds at every ring of the bell. We snooze we lose!
FGS! Gordon Wilson has urged Scotland to fight to fight for it’s liberty ‘body and soul’ Now claims to be a YES.
Story in Herald.
PS:
Just heard an MEP woman says Scotland welcome with open arms and on Auntie TV darn sarf!
Presenter says much warmth in the EU parliament for us but then interviews a Spanish official who said ‘there is a procedure for Scotland to be in the EU’. errr yes! Balanced reporting 🙂
Looking out for the usual suspects offering us unicorns before the day is oot!
@ GrahamB 12.49 BBC Bias Protest 26th March.
After tonights meeting there will be more information on the F/B page tomorrow & I would ask all Wingers to share as widely as possible.
Margaritis Schinas said: “The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously.”
we will hear a lot about this in the next few months
All this ‘will NATO accept Scotland?’ stuff being banded around … somehow I don’t think it’s uppermost in most folks reckoning!
Sorry if it upsets folk, but Tommy Shephard sat back and allowed Dugdale to spout shite.
He bit a little at Tompkins, but not much, and allowed Coburn to just talk pish to him.
@dugdale…”kezia, what on earth are you on about with a £15 billion deficit, when Deloitte SPECIFICALLY states that GERS is NO indicator of the future finances of an independent Scotland, you are talking presumptious nonsense”.
@tompkins….”oh dear, of course there is a mandate for a referendum, and of course there is the appetite for one, the Scottish electorate indicated that by voting for the SNP manifesto by an utter landslide. On the other hand, who voted for Theresa May as PM exactly”?
@Coburn….”listen Jo, if you are going to let every other guest talk rubbish unchallenged and uninterrupted yet butt in before i even begin to answer your questions, this interview is over and the viewers can decide if you and your programme has an inherent biase against Scotland and her representatives”.
………
Fuckin easy.
The SNP have contingency plans for every eventuality. Sturgeon has out-maneuvered May. If May tries to dictate the timing of the referendum, the SNP will have a plan in place. If it does reach absolute stalemate, then Holyrood goes on strike and a new election will be called with boosted SNP support.
A thought. Perhaps May et al are afraid of Brexit, ScotIndy, and united Ireland all happening at the same time and throwing England’s continuing state status into doubt.
It would be a hard case to argue, that England and Wales are the successor state to the full UK.
There is a queue of countries with a better claim to a permanent UK Security Council seat, for one thing.
@ Nana I thought of You lol.
?oh=71a3e4dbfbbf9ae5b5d9a87a7a482071&oe=596050F8
Dont let Norman out of your sight lol.
@Robert says:14 March, 2017 at 11:29 am:
“Maybe add that the “once in a generation” comment was a personal opinion of one person not a SNP promise.”
Och! Robert, you must be the supreme optimist. I’m still attempting, with little success, to get certain yoons to accept that, “Alex Salmond never said he had EU legal advice when questioned by Andrew Neil because the question Neil asked was, “and have you sought legal advice from your own Scottish Government legal advisors”. I’m also still attempting to convince certain Yoons that Nick Robinson’s claim that Salmond never answered Robinson’s question is a downright, bare faced, lie.
It is like the old saw, “Ye can tak a horse tae the watter but ye canna mak it drink”, when attempting to correct Yoon lies. Just like the nag micht say, “Neigh”, so do the yoons.
All kicking off nicely now 🙂
link to euobserver.com :
“Following calls on Monday by Scotland’s leader for a new independence referendum, Northern Ireland’s largest Irish nationalist party, Sinn Fein, has announced the need for a referendum on splitting from the United Kingdom “as soon as possible”. “Brexit will be a disaster for the economy, and a disaster for the people of Ireland. A referendum on Irish unity has to happen as soon a possible,” party leader Michelle O’Neill said.”
O/T links
Statement from Nicola
link to news.gov.scot
Alex Salmond: Theresa May has learned Nicola Sturgeon is “not a woman to be underestimated”
watch here
link to twitter.com
link to commonspace.scot
Joanna, Polish in Scotland -“I feel like a patient on the operating table…and Scotland is holding my hand saying everything’s gonna be OK”
watch here
link to twitter.com
Sturgeon retaliated first before May signed the article 50 letter. So every EU negotiator knows that there is now a genuine posssiblity that they can still have 28 constituent nations with Scotland either remaining or rejoining in short order.
That fact significantly complicates the task for UK negotiators who now have to think of the troubles at home as they seek a deal with the EU. And it all results from the intransigence and arrogance of Theresa May. And to think that Rev Stu thought 2017 was going to be a quiet year. Well, he’s not often wrong.
To sum up, Scotland should get a referendum ahead of the Brexit event, or in effect, have an opt out.
The problem will be that the UK MSM and establishment as a whole (politicians, civil service, corporations) will spend the interim SNP-badding and Brexit-gooding, that by the time indyref2 comes, half the population will be terrified.
Unless of course the alternative media gets hold of some TV rights (STV anyone? CH4?). At least we won’t have the celebs in cringe-max as we did last time. Their efforts will seem like the whimpering of a spoilt child.
Day 2 since announcement of #ScotRef
Oil bad
15 billion deficit
Russian threat
uk single market bigger than eu
Spanish Veto
EU rejection of Scottish Membership
NATO see above
“The SNP’s Ian Blackford asks if May will comply with the Scottish parliament’s request for a second referendum.
May says there was a referendum. At the time Alex Salmond said it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote.”
Did he just?
The FM is saying there’s a material change of circumstances to the circumstances at the time of the previous referendum. The SNP won Scottish Government on that manifesto. Therefore, to represent the mandate of the Scottish vote, the FM can’t not call a referendum.
The only issue is timing.
@ronnie anderson
I’m about to send out a search party Ronnie, he vanished earlier. He’ll no doubt appear again at dinner time, I’m just hoping he brings a takeaway home, lol
@galamcennalath
Oh, the old NATO trope is it?
Independent Scotland doesn’t become a NATO member (shrugs). Don’t think they’ve thought that one through myself, but good oh. We join PFP, work our own relationship with NATO and we enjoy the protection without the exorbitant contributions.
Not truly bothered either way, but you can see the route of travel.
YOU WALK AWAY AND NO ONE WILL HAVE YOU! ONLY WE REALLY LOVE YOU! (Might slap you about a bit), BUT THAT’S ALSO BECAUSE WE LOOOOOVE YOU! (sigh)
Nana
Who can Labour for Indy vote for, I wonder?
Stoker
I don’t disagree but there’s no point telling me you need to get that message across to the SNP. I am also sick and tired of the way they sit back and allow some of the worst claims and bullshit to go by unchallenged.
This 15 billion deficit should have been destroyed years ago.
The point that there is no UK without Scotland should have been brought up everytime seceding is mentioned. The SNP need to keep pointing out that the UK cant exist without the Parliamentary union with Scotland.
The referendum is about ending the Act of Union and the very existence of the UK itself its not about seceding from a UK Nation state that doesn’t exist.
They cant argue about EU membership or the currency from that perspective. It leave them with nothing.
SNP better up their game this time around or I’m going to start voting Green or RISE.
What we’ve seen and heard over the last 24 hours is yet more fear and negativity from britnats. Surely, even if they were taken surprise by Nicola Sturgeon’s classy pronoucement, yesterday should have seen britnats bringing out new arguments to defend their so-called united kingdom. There was nothing new from britnats. Fear and negativity is all they have.
Guys, NATO is fucked. Erdogan and Trump will see to that – Erdogan already has, can’t see anyone Europe dealing with a dictator like him now. He’s Muslim & doesn’t have significant oil so to Trump he’s disposable.
Its a non-argument as NATO benefits Scotland in no way whatsoever now. In fact we’d have a fuck of a lot less DU on our seabeds if we weren’t in NATO, never mind the old nukes/subs/whatever the hell is at the bottom of Holy Loch now.
Fuck NATO. Its of no practical use whatsoever and is decades past the point it last was of use. The French worked that out, the Germans are getting there….
in reply to Scotsbob who asked at 11:53 am:
“Why do people think that visiting a polling station more than once every couple of years is too much too manage?”
Referendum/Voting Fatigue is the latest fashionable illness or rather a dissuasion technique that is being promoted by the people who count/powers that be/ etc.
Convince people that the are suffering from this terrible illness and they will never again darken the doorstep of a Polling Station.
Smaller turnout = fewer voters to convince and election/referendum winning made easy
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Scotland believe it or not could manage very well. There are some irrefutable facts you should know
We have an annual GDP,in the region of £154 billion.
Our economy is the 12th largest out of the current 28 EU members.
We only include a share of oil and gas revenues in those figures.not the full revenues
We do not have powers to fully grow our economy as yet.
We produce the largest GDP per capita among EU nations.
Logically if we are in a mess then every country below our output should be bankrupt as well. Are they? No I thought not.
EXACTLY. Fact 4 from Main Article above,I completely agree.
Must be repeated often and widely.
Let the people speak.
“…….This, however, is like allowing a condemned man an appeal against his sentence, on the condition that it was only held after he had been executed.
Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum. The sole purpose of the referendum is to give the Scottish people the chance to escape that fate. A delayed referendum obviously fails in that purpose, and is therefore not fit for that purpose.
It is a non-credible option……”
The Rev’s Article
Fact 4 …. he wrote “Scotland being forced out of the EU against its will is the entire justification for a second referendum. The sole purpose of the referendum is to give the Scottish people the chance to escape that fate. A delayed referendum obviously fails in that purpose, and is therefore not fit for that purpose. It is a non-credible option.”
Genuine question. Given the Ms Sturgeon’s suggested timescales on indyref2, how does Scotland remain in the EU – if only a few months later there is a Brexit? Is it suggested that Brexit would be delayed until Scotland sorted themselves out – or that Scotland would agree a deal to become an independent member of the EU between indyref2 and Brexit?
@Luigi says: 14 March, 2017 at 11:53 am:
“I don’t think that May will point blank re
fuse a section 30 order. However, she will definitely try to stall a Scottish referendum until after BREXIT.”
I may well be wrong but I believe Nicola has had the intention to hold a referendum with or without anyone’s permission and her statement that she will seek Westminster’s Section 30 whatsit is nothing more than a bait for Theresa May to take.
If May attempts, or refuses, Westminster’s blessing then I’m sure it will add quite a few percentage points to the YES vote. This could lead to May attempting to delay matters until after the EU decision of the UK exit from the EU but that too is a trap for any Westminster Tory to fall into and Nicola is more than smart enough to bait such traps.
to paraphrase Kipling : –
Sorry for going O/T … sort of.
I think we may have a “secret agent” in the opposition’s camp already folks. 😉
link to twitter.com
The so-called united kingdom continues to disintegrate.
Jist a wee reminder:
link to thenational.scot
The unionists now claim the SNP did not win the 2016 election. I’m quite happy to let the Greens abstain and let the vote be between the SNP & the combined unionist opposition. So even without the Greens they still win the vote, bring it on.
Excellent piece, link sent to many and article printed off for casual leaving on tables.
Do you think the SNP will be allowed to continue:
Economist on SKY saying Scotland is 150 bllion pound economy and the extra money claimed by the UK that Scotland gets per head is purely assigned accounting and meaningless, what’s more important is Theresa May can’t afford to lose Scotland and especially not at a time when Norn Ireland has just declared they want to leave too
If the dim and uninformed folk of Scotland don’t wake up and get this stuff into their thick nappers they’ll consign us to total oblivion post Brexit and these moaning pensioners (which I’m one but I don’t moan) will find themselves forming lines outside the very few hospitals and health centres we’ll have left once Trump gets his Insurance companies imbedded and the youngsters will be having to pay health insurance to see doctors at exorbitant rates
Forget about free prescriptions, forget about free personel care for the elderly, forget about nursery care, in fact just forget because if Theresa May gets her way the SNP wont be able to protect Scotland from what’s coming and you can say hello to the Ruth Davidson Sectarian unionist party who’ll scrap the lot and don’t look to Labour for help they’ll abstain and likely only be part time anyway while making up their wages at an Aldi checkout near you
The Scottish parliament will end up like Downing street surrounded by bars and guards
So do your children a favour old lazy uninformed pensioners and do the right thing instead of the selfish thing
And for younger No voters well you’re just bringing it on yourselves there’s no excuse for you except if you’re a sectarian bigot of course then you’re doomed anyway while you shout No surrender at the moon
Immediate Media training for all MPs & Msps .
While Tommy did ok , I could have floored Kezia & Tomkins ,
Kezia by pointing out her various alternative facts and her very own y/tube clip of her being caught mis truthing .
Tomkins , you say Mr Tomkins the first minister has no Mandate ,to call a referendum i put it to you not only is that a total lie but you Mr Tomkins have no mandate or right to sit in our parliament having reached the dizzying heights of fifth place in the last election yes that was fifth place , you shouldn’t be there .
Stop being so bloody agreeable , dont sit silent when the pish starts , Interrupt the buggers rehearsed flow of rubbish .
Just my humble opinion .
Now I think this is definitely O/T but I think peeps will enjoy it all the same.
Remember this is what Mayhem actually “thinks.” 😀
Oh and for good measure Angus Robertson played a “slam dunk” on her today apparently as well. 😀
link to twitter.com
Damn it might have helped if I had put the first link into my previous tweet … DUH! 😀
link to twitter.com
I am still cleaning the shoes and clothes. I think there has been even more head spinning and projectile vomiting in the last 24 hours from the Yoons than Indy Ref 1.
Meanwhile the Brit Peso is looking even more like the Peso.
I am enjoying the vomiting of Brit bile but the cleaning up isn’t much fun.
Vestas,
I think we can safely put the NATO thing to bed now. Basically it needs us more than we need them, but it’s no big deal. Nobody’s that bothered either way.
Let’s avoid distractions, please. The Unionists will try to conjure up as many as they can, and we don’t need to help them by making more.
As Macart says, go on the offensive, not tamely follow the opposition agenda.
@sensibledave says: 14 March, 2017 at 2:13 pm:
“Genuine question. Given the Ms Sturgeon’s suggested timescales on indyref2, how does Scotland remain in the EU – if only a few months later there is a Brexit? Is it suggested that Brexit would be delayed until Scotland sorted themselves out – or that Scotland would agree a deal to become an independent member of the EU between indyref2 and Brexit?”
Laughable, sensibledave.
Scotland, as either a country or a partner kingdom in the EU, has been a founder member country/kingdom of the EU. We have been full members since day one, sensibledave.
Why then would Scotland need to, “Sort herself out”?
The negotiations would go something like this :-
EC(the EU Civil Service):-“Hello Scottish Government”, – we are calling you to find out if you wish to retain the former UK’s seat in the EU.
We realise that you know you will need to renegotiate certain matters but we understand, after 40 years or so, that you already comply with all the rules. Can you confirm you wish to remain?”
SG: “Yes we do wish to remain and will have our senior MEP start negotiations on our behalf.”
EC: ” Thank you Scotland. I won’t welcome you back because you never left, How’s the weather in Edinburgh today? London tells me it is rather, how do you say it in Scotland? Ah! I remember, Muckle Dreich”.
It’s difficult to work out which of the Tory, Labour or LibDems leaders think Scotland is the most useless country in the world. I never realised we were so useless till these people point it out on a daily basis.
According to them I’m some sort of Fagan character, just wanting to pick the pockets of our neighbours. Thankfully I have a higher opinion of the people living here.
I’m waiting for someone to put the question directly to Mundell as to whether in his role as Scottish Secretary he will instruct Lord Andrew Dunlop, the Under – Secretary, to reject the Section 30 request for the power to hold a constitutionally altering independence referendum. If so will he do so on his own behalf or on instruction from his PM?
The NewRef fund raiser is now at £218,000 – not bad for one day.
99 days left.
link to ref.scot
GEEO
“Al Jazeera have a very good article by an Alistair Sloan…”
AYE
BUT HE STILL MANAGED TO GET IT WRONG WHEN HE SAID SCOTLANDS CASE FOR INDY WAS DAMAGED WHEN THE OIL PRICE FELL!
Robert Peffers 2:37 pm
You wrote “Laughable, sensibledave.
Robert, The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland. The Uk’s arrangements with the EU cover many aspects, just one of which is the size of a member’s contribution to the EU coffers. Other issues that would need to be sorted is the border arrangements, the customs union, currency, avoidance of England having indirect access to single market, etc.
I am not suggesting that these things can’t be overcome – I am very dubious though that it could be achieved in a couple of months.- bearing in mind that in those timescales Scotland would still be part of the UK even if an Independence referendum had been had – and won? Scotland wouldn’t be an Independent country by the time the UK Brexit – unless Brexit is delayed?
Maybe I am just over-complicating things and asking silly questions. You seem pretty sure that you have all the answers – but then you always do and you are inevitably proved wrong.
Comedy classic from R.T. peeps.
David Coburn (boy I’m gonna miss him after independence 😀 ) arguing against Scottish independence.
link to youtube.com
Blind Brexit…
link to imgur.com
Now that we can all rest easy in our beds in the safe knowledge that the wealthy and Big Business are being given £73 billion in tax breaks by the Tory Government and that the ‘savings’ by scrapping Widows Benefits, Employment Support Allowances to disabled Jobseekers, and removing Housing Benefit to 11,00 18-21 year olds, rendering them homeless at the stroke of Ruth Davidson’s pen,are to be used to build the Queen and her Royal Hangers On a new luxury yacht, is there any truth that this floating obscenity will be named ‘Betty McBettface?
The Red Blue and Yellow Tories has lost any vestige of morality, fairness and a social conscience now.
Last night they voted to introduce a virtual concentration camp for 3 million EU citizens working here in our Health Service, Tourism, agriculture, education, and many more areas of vital importance to the health, wealth, and social cohesion of the UK.
They have quite literally lost the plot.
Yet Professor WATP Adam Tomkins is given Leave of Absence from his day job at Glasgow Uni to tour the broadcast outlets lying his head off.
I have a personal stake in this. We roundly rejected this freeloader in our constituency, yet he has the attention of the whole MSM, everywhere, all the time.
I pity his poor students at Uni.
What a fecking sinecure this man is on!
We shall be free of him and the LisTory Boys soon now.
Posting this again for anyone who missed it first time
Jim Rogers on Brexit: If Scotland takes its oil with it…
link to youtube.com
sensibledave @ 15:07:
Now you are just taking the contrarian piss, insensible. As soon as an indy referendum is won, Scotland is no longer part of the UK. By definition. Duh.
Negotiation of the terms of separation would if course begin, as indeed would up-front (rather than backroom) negotiations about Scotland’s relationship with the EU, but from that point on we would not be beholden to the rUK over anything whatsoever. And would be backed up by the UN accordingly, if necessary.
As soon as a winning indy vote is declared, the UK-as-was becomes past tense. Done. Over. Period.
Is there a breakdown available of EU citizens and how they voted in the last Referendum?
How many thousands voted? And I would expect that the majority of them voted No because they thought it was likelier remaining in the EU as was. Now that must be completely reversed.
@Dr Jim says: 14 March, 2017 at 2:26 pm:
“The Scottish parliament will end up like Downing street surrounded by bars and guards.”
Not very different from today then Dr Jim, surrounded by pubs and knocking shops.
Let’s PEACE for independence, not fight for it. Calmly present the facts of the case for independence and the case against the Westminster Government and the Unionist campaign. Yes, stir the emotions, but not by attacking persons, nor calling names, nor any kind of put-downs. Get to the bottom of the GERS figures by a detailed analysis and presentation of our financial and fiscal situation. Let Scottish Sovereigntists who appear on talk shows etc, make clear that the show is biased against them because the programme has only one to present the case for our sovereignty and 4 or more against our Sovereignty.
This is just getting ridiculous now.
Person on a phone in just said calling a referendum in 2018 is too soon because it doesn’t give people enough time to make a decision!
I decided in 1964 that I wanted my country to be self governing, I don’t need more time to think about it.
@Sensibledave
Every argument from pro Yoonia is founded on the premise that the UK is a country a Nation State when it clearly isn’t.
The UK is NOTHING BUT a Parliamentary union between country Nation States. So the ACTUAL COUNRY NATION STATE members within the EU are Scotland England and Wales. NI has a separate treaty of Union with the entire UK Parliament.
Which actually means that when Scotland ends that Parliamentary Union NI automatically becomes Independent too because they will no longer be in a Treaty of Union with a Parliament that no longer exists.
But as far as the EU is concerned as long as Scotland takes its Independence while still within the EU it will remain in the EU because there is no structure within EU legislation to remove an existing member. Existing members have to leave of their own violation.
The entire pro Union non case relies on the lie that the UK is a Nation State. Everything they claim is based on that Lie and non existing foundation.
The currency NATO the EU all dependent on an Indy Scotland “AGREEING” to allow the “R” UK to continue to exist as the existing UK.
If the “R” UK doesn’t get that agreement it cant continue to claim its the UK.
@ Stu why would you have bricks in your living room, i,ve heard of people throwing slippers ect at the TV ( Irene King for one ) but no bricks, each to they’re own I suppose & where’s the Hammers btw. lol
“The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland.”
Scotland does however have to comply with all EU regulations by virtue of that.
Entry into the EU is based on a set of requirements. If a country meets those requirements then it is admitted after the EU members vote to admit.
All of the other issues you raised have already been encountered by joining states, none of which were already compliant.
It has already been mooted by Jacqueline Manor that Scotland would have to apply, and would be fast-tracked due to its unique status (of having already been compliant in terms of EU regulations).
It took less than a year for Croatia, a country far from being fast-tracked, to be admitted to the EU.
link to bbc.co.uk
From 1 July 2013, upon Croatian accession to the EU:
Concerns about Croatian corruption and organised crime remain among some EU leaders, and Croatia will not yet join the single currency or the free-movement Schengen zone, where most EU citizens are not subject to passport checks.
But advocates of EU membership say despite this, their case remains a persuasive one.
Two-thirds of Croatians voted in favour of accession last year.
“It’s important for us primarily for the long term guarantees of political stability and then everything else – the single market too,” Croatia’s First Deputy Prime Minister, Vesna Pusic, told the BBC.
The EU itself has given Croatia a clean bill of health – and praised reforms which improve the rule of law and tackle corruption.
It hopes the other countries of the former Yugoslavia will be encouraged to join – and secure long-term peace for an historically turbulent region.
Not a lot of time at the moment but picking up on random points.
1 Any proxy-referendum forced by Westminster refusal and SC declaration of illegality, would have to be by mass resignation of Westminster pro indy MPs.
That is simply because it is only there where nearly all of the Scottish electorate can be tested with 56 out of 59 MPs.
50%+ of that turnout would be enough to make a request for negotiations on independence with Westminster, or if the still refuse to acknowledge….
A similar action in Holyrood could not do this, as an election due to mass resignation of pro indy MSPs would only test half the electorate therefore no possibility of getting 50% of the electorate.
2 Similarly, any strike action at Holyrood would give them the perfect excuse resume direct rule.
3 OK, not the envisaged super grid, but a connection to Norway already would effect a connection to elsewhere in Europe since there are already sub sea cables from there to The Netherlands, Denmark and Germany built or under way.
4 About a third of tidal energy is generated by the Sun.
W Habib Steele @ 15:21:
While I appreciate your general sentiment, WHS, I cannot agree about this particular point. Nit-picking over unionist-sourced financial white noise is exactly what our opponents would like us to do. Get lost in irrelevant fine detail and lose sight of the big picture: GERS figures, whatever they are, represent nothing more than serial Union mismanagement; debt incurred by others yet charged to our account. Everything changes under our own management. Not a panacea, true, but a whole different ball game nevertheless.
Preferably starting debt-free.
Just watched that RT exchange between David Jamieson and David Coburn – I think the Indyref2 No campaign has just found its leader.
I have never heard any Tory or Labour politician mount as trenchant a defence of UKOK as the bold DC did. It was magnificent – mind you, it was also a load of lying misinformation and bull excrement.
Please, can we all boost DC to the extent he is given a leading role in the No campaign – then we Ayes are home and hosed.
He is so loony, he makes Tomkins, Fraser, Ruthie, Kezia, Kelly and Co seem lucid and intelligent.
I’ve just been TOLD by an “award winning investigative journalist” on twitter that “Scotland doesn’t want independence it just wants to do what it wants and have Westminster pay for it” oh and “anyone with an IQ above 60 can see that”. Sometimes you realize life is too short and you just have to walk away from a fruitless argument
Rev.
Looking, and listening to A. Tomkins, Ruth Davidson, and a few others, I cannot help but think I am watching the Scottish U.K.I.P. party.
The hatred of the S.N.P. with it’s success in Scotland, has made the “Con/U.K.I.P.”nothing more than a far right wing party which has fallen over the edge of insanity.
Robert J. Sutherland 15:07:
You wrote “As soon as a winning indy vote is declared, the UK-as-was becomes past tense. Done. Over. Period.”
I have no axe to grind here – other than “correctness”. The result of the referendum determines the future direction, it absolutely does not mean that Scotland is suddenly, overnight, an Independent country in actuality. In other threads, it has been argued how long it takes to extricate oneself from these long term relationships and agreements and now you seem to be arguing, together with Robert Peffers, that the EU will be jumping up and down to make Scotland a member overnight with a rubber stamp.
Clearly, again, I cannot profess to know – but it doesn’t sound likely to me.
Worryingly though if yours is an example of the degree of brain power that is being brought to bear here, then there may be problems ahead.
Just waiting for yoon whitaboutery you can’t get your pension in an Independent Scotland, aye that’ll go down well with all the expats in Spain and elsewhere in the EU. All thanks to tory/Ukip not forgetting the BBC and bum newspapers in this evil connivance to keep the city of london clique rolling in cash,oil,power,ego and greed.
Brexit the road to hell, no mistake, still what little england wants, little england gets, to hell with anyone else.
Scotland is ready for Independence, it’s our children/grandchildren’s birthright, it’s their futures that’s in our hands.
Ronnie @ 3.34
Its no the TV she throws baffies at Ronnie 🙁
I thought Nichola Sturgeon’s announcement yesterday was positively magisterial. The British establishment obviously half expected such an announcement, but such is their complete ignorance about Scotland, they expected it to happen at the SNP conference. The fact that is was made in such a stately and dignified way at Bute House- emphasizing the fact that she was speaking for the whole of Scotland, not just the SNP- was little short of inspirational.If only we had a Nichola has always been a common refrain among Welsh nationalists. Well her stock kas risen that much higher in our midst after yesterday.
I personally feel that Theresa May has been mortally wounded after underestimating Sturgeon and the threat of Indy Ref 2 to such an extent. I have never rated her. Her performances at PM’s Question Times are both wooden and completely devoid of content. I think she is completely out of her depth. Now she has to front up to the most canny political operator in the British Isles- I just can’t see her lasting the distance. The Tories are the most ruthless political party in Europe, and there are already murmurings that a successor to May is now being sought.Is it any wonder that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have raised their profiles over the past few weeks? Indeed Gove described May as a “Catholic” in a newspaper article over the weekend, when what Britain needed was a full throttled new Protestant Reformation to “remake the country”
My own view is that the usual British arrogance will come into play again,whoever takes the Tory reins, i.e that they will refuse Scotland the right to call a new referendum or delay it until after Brexit. I also suspect that they will crash out of the EU without a deal much sooner than anybody expects, especially now that they have this Scottish threat to counter. I trust that Nichola Sturgeon has anticipated this eventuality, and is ready to call a snap Scottish election in response, with the SNP standing on an Independence ticket. After all, if you look back at the history of independence gaining countries overs the past 100 years, only a handful have done so through a referendum.
Looking at the situation from here in Wales, I would much prefer Scotland to gain its freedom by means of an election, rather than undergo the lottery of another referendum, which can be so uncertain and divisive.
sensibledave @ 15:54:
Oh dear, you obviously didn’t read very carefully what I wrote, then. (Your problem, not mine.)
Then you reduce yourself to cheap ad hominem insults. Poor you. You’re losing it, dear chap, and it’s showing.
As to the subject of correctness, a winning independence result immediately removes Scotland from UK control. London loses all its heretofore presumed writ over the land from that very microsecond. The (not inconsiderable) remainder is mere incidental mutual tidying-up.
If London blocks an early referendum then the 2020 general election should be designated the independence election. If the SNP win more than 50% of the Scottish seats at Westminster that’s all the mandate you need to declare independence.
Its wildly mad out there today and now,
Graun says,
UK Independence party (Ukip)
Ukip donor Arron Banks says he has quit party to set up ‘Ukip 2.0’
Man who bankrolled Leave.EU campaign claims his membership was suspended after his outspoken attacks on party
Quit or booted out, by Dr Nuttall? Scottish UKIPer loony Coburn’s high comedy today too. Bit ungrateful though, as Aaron’s splurged even more dosh om UKIP than JK Rowling did against Scotland running Scotland, 2014.
Cant wait to see how much Rowling blows this time. Where will it all end.
Robert J. Sutherland 10.
You wrote “As to the subject of correctness, a winning independence result immediately removes Scotland from UK control. London loses all its heretofore presumed writ over the land from that very microsecond. The (not inconsiderable) remainder is mere incidental mutual tidying-up.
I agree in terms of the sense and feeling of Independence would be “coming” Robert – but not the actuality in practical terms. But hey, you have got everything covered it seems.
Maybe other contributors might like to express a view?
I’d like the people who voted for David Coburn to identify themselves and tell us how proud they are of him and do they still find him to be representative of their “views”
It’s oh so quiet, it’s oh so still
Robert J Sutherland
For once, sensibledave is correct. Scotland will not become independent the moment we win an independence referendum. That victory will signal the parting of the ways, the terms will still have to be negotiated, this will take time and you can guarantee, since we are so-crucial to the well-being of the UK state, England will do their demndest to string-out the negotiations, milk us for as much as they can and in all probability do what they can to lay waste to Scotland before we go.
I always felt Alex Salmond’s 18-month timeline back in 2014 was a bit optimistic. Aye, it might work with good will on both sides, but, good will to Scotland from Westminster – that would be a first.
I fear, even if the timescale was favourable, we would not become the successor state within the EU to the UK. Given the negotiations which will be required to separate us from England (and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland) – “Scotland free by 23” is a more-likely scenario – it could take that long.
However, we will still be a sought-after addition to the EU family, with all the natural resources we have. I have no illusions, the early days of an independent Scotland will be tough, but, we will survive and prosper.
Clear, factual, indisputable, unemotional.
Rev Stuart Campbell. Indispensable, irrepressible, irreplaceable.
Cymru Rydd: some excellent points. May may cut and run in a flounce at an early stage of Brexit negotiations and try to drag us out with her but I am sure the FM will have a plan for that eventuality.
You may find this interesting:
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
I have tried to get on lbc all day I get through but they never allow me on air I said to all your people who are phoning in saying that Scotland is to poor to survive and that England subsidies Scotland read the Macrone report yes the one they kept hidden for 30 years so they knew it was true but they did not want you or us to know it only after a freedom of information request was it revealed please realize that they are lying to you as well as us
One minute britnats say Scotland won’t be allowed in the EU, then in the next minute they say Scotland will be ruled by Brussels. Britnats are full of BS.
@Socrates McSporran,
If you are correct then we would still be sitting in Westminster and voting on legislation even after indy has been declared. What happens if they want to pass legislation affecting the whole UK ?
I think the point is that effectively we would no longer be able or indeed eligible to form new legislation in Westminster, especially relating to Scotland, but would be active probably through the Civil Service in sorting out the detail and minutiae of separation.
Jocks, frogs, gerrys, greasy belgians, wops, wogs, fuzzy wuzzys, rag heads, turkeys, spics
All nasty names for people from other countries not invented by themselves
but derogatory terms to demean other nations
Who does that???
I so want to be associated with those people…Not
Never thought I’d be the one to say this but a mass resignation of every SNP MP with, hopefully, those not presently part of the party but elected on that ticket would force new elections at which point the SNP could stand on a manifesto pledge of declaring independence. They got nearly 50% last time. Not impossible this time. Unfortunately postal voting won’t be under our control.
The first step would be recall all MPs for a public council of war.
In the past it has always been Scotland v England, even more so since 2012 and the start of IndyRef14, when the EU was with Westminster. But with the EU referendum in June 2016, the EU is now on our side. We are no longer ‘alone’ in our difficulties with Westminster.
It is surely time for the Yes campaign to fully acknowledge and act in partnership with our many European friends, as indeed Nicola and the SG are already doing.
Why look to England and the Unionists, from whence comes mostly hostility and bile.
Instead, let us look up and beyond England to where we have many friends. Try out the European newspapers and continental TV. We are not alone. Let’s act like it throughout ScotRef.
Yeah, that’s it in a nutshell.
A reminder:
Brussels control in Scotland is 7%.
Westminster control in Scotland is 93%.
After Independence,
Brussels control 7% (Scotland friendly)
Scotland’s control 93%
@Socrates MacSporran
I can’t see how this would work, there would be an outcry immediately in Eng & Wales if there was still Scottish MP’s at Westminster voting on legislation that would, in the longer term, not be implemented in Scotland.
I would expect all MP’s to withdraw from Westminster the day after the vote and the power transferred to Holyrood. Any legislation that requires UK wide agreements would require negotiations between WM & HR. The full separation can then progress in parallel, if we require WM initiative we may still be in the union in 50 years.
This transition is a dangerous period as there will still be those trying to reverse the result, the union split must be done prior to any elections in Scotland, before May 2021.
Bob Mack @ 16:31,
Thank you, Bob, you made essentially the reply that I would have made.
No-one disputes that there would be a great deal of sorting out to be done thereafter, but that’s entirely incidental.
From the point of declaration on, London could not negotiate anything internationally on our behalf, nor impose any further law over us. All our elected representatives in the HoC, including poor old Fluffy, Liar Carmichael and Red Tory Ian, would be obliged to take their leave directly.
Scotland’s sovereignity would indisputably lie within its own borders from that moment on.
Sensible Dave – Re your insulting comments about Robert Peffers and Robert J Sutherland, could you employ some of your massive brain power, or is it ego, to learn some manners. We don’t all agree with each other on here but we mostly remain civil. If I was a guest in your house I would remember my manners – but then i’m just a lesser human being as a Scot!
I wonder who the last Scottish member of the house of Lords will be? A 90-year old Lady Mone perhaps.
BobMack
As my sainted Mother was always saying: “Ye never let go wi’ yae haun, tae ye hae a better grip wi’ the ither”.
Of course we should, after winning Indyref2, remain at Westminster and playing our full part. After all, since the Tories ignore everything the SNP members suggest now, they have nothing to lose by staying, but, they HAVE to remain there to keep a watching brief.
There will need to be co-operation between the two Parliaments, the status of the Scottish civil servants, for instance will need to be sorted-out, also, the exact time table for the separation and the due date of Independence Day.
Been away and still trying to catch up as there is such a lot of keech fleein aboot. Can I just add my tuppenceworth?
This time around the argument is different. Don’t let the yoons drown us out with all the crap about too wee, too poor, the EU don’t want us. The £15 million debt etc. Why let them away with this crap. Get in aboot them, big time. It’s no up tae them whit will happen in an indy Scotland, that’s oor decision, no their’s.For me, it boils down to Scotland versus The Tories. Get stuck in aboot Brexit and dinnae let them dictate to us, and try and put us on the back foot. On yer feet, and up aff yer knees.
Dae ye want tae be dragged oot o’ the EU kickin an screaming, by a bunch o’ the most racist uncaring government at Westminster?I don’t, and I’m gonnae fight wi’ a’ that I can tae give Scotland a chance o’ a better life. I hae a son, daughter and three teenage granweans and we need tae win this fur the sake o’ a’ the young yins.
So, keep the heid, don’t let the yoon crap get tae ye. Onwards and upwards boys. This is literally a fight to the death this time, cause should we lose, god help us all.Tory Westminster Government till at least 2030. No thank you very much.
Rant over.
Just for you Dr. Jim 😀
link to youtube.com
On the subject of post yes negotiations…
We in Scotland fully accepy your previous stance of No Currency Union due to the sinking pound, so, no debt interest share will be taken.
There’s 6 months of pish saved right there.
Keeping it simple is good. If anyone says Spain or Alfonso Dastis is saying Scotland would go to the back of the queue, here’s a simple answer:
“That’s Alfonso Dastis, Spain’s Foreign Secretary, he is Spain’s equivalent of Boris Johnson.”
and leave it at that!
Prof Tomkins logic.
37% of electorate gives you mandate for a referendum.
47% of electorate does not give you mandate for a referendum.
Glad he wasn’t marking any exams I took.
Never seen such nonsense since 2014 when the abeisalba poster in the Guardian used to bomb it with streams of cut & paste.
Orri
…you don’t win by surrendering your political authority. Getting 56 out of 59 was an amazing feat if you come just ONE short of that target can you imagine the headlines.
@sensibledave says: 14 March, 2017 at 3:07 pm:
“Robert, The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland.”
Indeed that is correct with the proviso that the title of it correctly describes exactly what that, “United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, actually is. The letters K-i-n-g-d-o-m spell the word, “Kingdom”, they do not spell out the word, “C-o-u-n-t-r-y”. The United Kingdom is a union of only the two kingdoms extant in the British archipelago in the years before 1706/7.
There have been no other kingdoms created in the British Isles since those two, equally sovereign, kingdoms united in 1707. It is of no consequence that the Kingdom of England was/is comprised of three countries and Scotland was/is a single country as it was two kingdoms and not four countries that signed the Treaty of Union.
(As a matter of strict fact the pre-amble to the Treaty of Union refers to, “English dominions”. Pre-1706/7 those dominions referred to in the treaty are Wales and Ireland).
There is not a single mention of country or countries in the Treaty. It is without doubt legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms.
Thus the legal member state of the EU is a bipartite unit of two equally sovereign kingdoms. Much like a married couple are a legally bipartite couple and as such they have equal legal rights.
Unless, of course, you can provide proof otherwise. Westminster has assumed, without legal right, sovereignty over Scotland that Westminster does not legally have. There is no legal proof of the Westminster claims that the Treaty of Union, “Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.
Furthermore, there is no legal basis, other than, “Because we say so”, for Westminster to change what is certainly a legal treaty between bipartite equally sovereign kingdoms into a quadratic arrangement that makes Westminster the de facto parliament of the country of England, relegates the kingdom of Scotland as a dominion of England and treats Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales as subservient English dominions that Westminster devolves English powers to but claims it retains overall sovereignty over and can recall powers it granted.
What is more Westminster knows this, many Scots know this and the EU knows this. If Ms May fancies her chances of disputing all that in the European Court of Human Rights I’m sure the legally qualified lawyer that is the present First Minister of Scotland knows far more than I do of the legal implications.
Strangely, Sensibledave, to date not a single, “expert”, has brought forward any proofs in dispute with my claims and few qualified persons have done more than claim, without proofs. that I am wrong.
Can you offer proof that Westminster actually has sovereignty over the legally sovereign people of Scotland?
“The Uk’s arrangements with the EU cover many aspects, just one of which is the size of a member’s contribution to the EU coffers.”
Exactly so, but the UK is legally a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms and thus the UK Government equally represents both parties in the United Kingdom. It does not just represent the Kingdom of England. That, though is the illegal position that Westminster has adopted. Everything points to that conclusion.
Westminster claimed, throughout the entire Indyref campaign, that if Scotland became independent that Westminster would remain as the rUnited Kingdom. The fact is in a bipartite kingdom if Scotland left what remains, (the, “r”, in rUK), could only be the Kingdom of England as no other British kingdoms have ever existed since 1706/7.
Not to mention the Westminster commissioned paper that made the claim the Treaty, “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland and the public claim made on national TV by the Scottish Secretary. Factually if the two kingdoms split up the United Kingdom is ended and Westminster is NOT the legally elected Kingdom of England Parliament nor the country of England parliament. There is not a single person elected as a member of the parliament of England not the parliament of the Kingdom of England. Neither parliament exists.
Westminster simply cannot assume to speak only for either kingdom any more than it can speak for any of the four countries alone. It is legally the Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom.
” … if an Independence referendum had been had – and won? Scotland wouldn’t be an Independent country by the time the UK Brexit – unless Brexit is delayed?”
Rubbish! As the law of the Kingdom of Scotland is based upon the people of Scotland being sovereign then whatever a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland decide is legally so. And don’t even attempt to come with the usual pish that because that is law made a long time ago it is not relevant. Here’s why – no act of the Westminster Parliament goes into law without the signature of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth and that law goes back a long time before 1320.
If a majority of Scots give Nicola the mandate to end the Union then the union has legally ended and there is no legally elected parliament of either the kingdom or country of England and, under English law Her Majesty is still legally sovereign. Her Majesty has to formally appoint, “HER”, Prime Minister, it is NOT a government title it is a royal title. The Prime Minister is legally a royal office holder not appointed by the parliament. The Queen calls in the leader of the party winning the election and invites that person to form, “Her Majesty’s Government”.
Maybe I am just over-complicating things and asking silly questions. You seem pretty sure that you have all the answers – but then you always do and you are inevitably proved wrong. Eh! Now just go and show where I have been proven wrong, sensibledave?
Mind you several, Rock for example, keep saying I’m wrong but, to date he, or she, has offered nothing by way of proof. Neither, for that matter have you.
So there you go – either show where I have been proven wrong or apologise for that claim. BTW: I do not mind being proven wrong and often say, correct me if I’m wrong. Believe it or not I do actually mean it because I am a seeker after truth and not attempting to be a know-it-all.
I see Jim Sillars is punting in the daily stranger that Dugdale’s and Brown’s federalist option may be a realistic alternative.
How would federalism change the situation for the better which Scotland currently finds itself in?
Westminster would still be in command of the Scottish economy, and if the Scottish government took a contrary position to that of Westminster.
Would we end up being treated like how Trump is threatening to treat some of the states in the US.
As we might expect, there’s a great article on the current situation, especially re timing, by Paul Kavanagh:
weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/the-cards-are-in-scotlands-hands/
One very salient point that he makes, that I at least had overlooked, is that Mayhem’s attempt to delay ScotRef is at least partly motivated by a wish to deny – by stealth – a vote to all EU nationals resident in Scotland.
Since their livelihoods and futures are as much at stake as anyone else’s, for their sake as well as ours, we must protect the mandate against Unionist gerrymandering.
Oh I see we have FRB closed again. Humza, yer tea’s oot pal…
Just come across an interesting wee snippet by Richard Murphy on Tax and Renvenues.
link to taxresearch.org.uk
I think the crux of what he says is “take GERS with a humongous truck load of salt!”
Anyone who quotes GERS, £15 Billion deficit as an argument against Scottish independence is either lazy, incompetent or does not understand where the figures come from in the first place to produce the GERS reports i.e. they come from WESTMINSTER.
As Richard says at the very end:
It’s an estimated set of accounts based on estimated revenues based on UK statistics as my emphases show. The debate needs better than that.
Mike geoo and stoker
AN OPEN LETTER TO NICOLA STURGEON
Nicola I watched daily politics today and was utterly appalled at Tommy Shepard , if this is going to be the level of disputation put forward by our (SNP SG MPS and MSPS ) we would be as well not bothering with a referendum .
Tommy allowed 2 very incompetent MSPS to SPOUT DELIBERATE LIES , spurious MISINFORMATION and outright scaremongering , without in any meaningful way challenging them , some on the site are trying to deflect blame on to the interviewer but I am sorry to say the blame lies squarely with Mr Shepard .
On watching the programme I was convinced that Mr Shepard was not even in the room .
Too many SNP persons participating in the broadcast media are simply not good enough at it , they are time and time again being caught wrong footed or simply don’t have answers to challenges, they are constantly reacting rather than challenging, this is the wrong methodology ,you are allowing dubious and deliberate lies and obfuscation to register in people’s subconscious whilst your responses are frequently interrupted and talked over,not allowing the answer oxygen .
Let us not forget the establishment drones are experts at this, they have centuries of disabling peoples ideas and dreams
The Scottish people NEED convincing through proper facts spoken coherently and with conviction , that Scotland can survive and prosper,and make their OWN decisions on their and their childrens future, without being dragged along reluctantly with decisions made by their neighbours.
I desperately want my country to be independent, to forge it’s own future , to make its own way in the world and to make its own decisions ,to decide how we raise our finances and how and who we spend them on ,to trade with who WE want ,to ensure that every citizen has a future without deprivation and homelessness , to utilise our resplendent resources for our citizens not for the benefit of pirates.
I want ALL of these things, but unless the SNP SG step up and take the fight to the establishment and their unionist lackeys,fight fire with fire ,proact rather than react then we will all face 2014 disappointment again
As a wee backup to my last post I came across this from Dr. Craig Dalzell.
link to thecommongreen.scot
Robert Peffers 5.11
I completely get that you are committed Scottish Nationalist and I admire and respect that. I don’t know how to respond to you though when you write a screed like the one just did – other than to say, if you are right, why is there all this fuss? Why hasn’t the saintly Ms Sturgeon ddeclared Scotland an Independent company? Why does she accept rule from Westminster? Why does the SNP have Mps in Westminster, etc, etc.
I bow to your apparent knowledge of history but I think this is one of those occasions where the “unwritten” word has taken president over time. Scotland is part of the Uk, Scotland’s Parliament exists at the gift of the Westminster Paliament. I am not saying it right, desirable or appreciated – but it definately is what it is. I know of know serious politician that takes the same view as you on these constitutional issues.
Tompkins seems to prefer the WM system as this gives you a mandate. So if we extrapolate the constituency votes as FPTP then the parliament would look something like this
SNP 104 seats
Con 13 seat
LibDem 7 seats
Lab 5 seats
Grn 0 seats
Now that would be a stonking mandate!
Watching parliament debating tax rises in the budget I was informed by a comment by a Tory MP who said that I was personally responsible for the national debt to the tune of £64.000 pounds as is every houshold in Britain because we don’t live within our means apparently and that’s why the Tory government has to impose restrictions on me, and for those too ill and disabled, well work will set them free and raise their standard of living so all good
No mention of course that it was the F…..g banks that did it, not me, not you and not sick or disabled people, we never spent the F…..g money
It was the F…..g banks!!!
Vote Independence before they tax F…..g rainfall
Must say, I agree with twathater above. Too many times SNP politicians who are not up to speed or able to provide cogent answers seem to be allowed to appear as and when they so wish on TV/radio. It just won’t do.
Their are many within the SNP/Scot Gov ranks well able to debate, and it is they who should be visiting TV/radio studios.
The SNP really, really, really needs to get to grips with this. The current free for all, just will not do. If you are in the scotgov or SNP and going on TV, you NEED to be up on all the arguments, and be able to debate.
England’s relationship with Scotland (& all the Colonies). With a broad brush, naturally.
First there is exploitation, which is uncovered and this results in the fear of being exposed for all to see. The fear brings forth lies, in an attempt to cover up the truth. The lies produce anger when the lies are not believed. The anger tries to force acceptance and acquiescence. When this fails, anger resorts to threats and outbursts of rage.
There is no discussion at this stage, that is no longer possible. Rage then gives way to desperation, before losing control and descending into violence. Throughout, protests of innocence are made, mixed with accusations of guilt towards the innocent party.
Meaningful dialogue is now impossible as anger conceives the belief that physical destruction is the best, and only, solution.
Westminster remains a Colonial power and still holds dear it’s history and status as an Empire. But old colonial habits die hard, particularly when Scotland seeks to join the long list of other colonies who sought and regained their independence.
Westminster’s strategy is to demonise Scotland in general and the SNP in particular, as divisive separatists whose only thought is to break up the ‘most successful political union ever seen’. No mention of England as a predatorial and rapacious Colonial power set on exploitation and control.
The Act of Union was conducted by this same Colonial power in the same way and for the same reasons – exploitation and control.
Theresa May is simply the latest British prime minister setting out to retain stolen property and maintain/restore the status of the British Empire.
The leadership of the campaign will be vital, according to the former board member of Better Together, Craig Harrow, speaking on Radio 4.
People trusted Darling more than Salmond.
Probably true.
I would suggest that Mr Salmond’s role in the forthcoming campaign is given careful consideration. He’s to easy a target for negativity and, potentially one where the label of “failure” can be applied.
I personally cannot fathom why Mr Salmond is seen by voters in negative terms. I will guess that he motivates people to look themselves in the mirror and forces them to confront their subservience to Tory England. This then has a reaction that is self loathing and directed at the person who reveals the ugly truth.
But I’m no expert, so let’s leave that there.
I suspect that Miss Sturgeon is seen differently (although I have seen Yoons on social media declare that she “doesn’t speak” for them).
So I’m guessing that leadership is key.
Darling, Brown and the Labour party are discredited. Their true Tory colours were revealed and pinned firmly to the Tory mast!
The Yellow Tory LibDems don’t really have a puppet that is prominent IMHO.
Ruth Davidson might be the preference for the Tories.
Maybe somone from outside politics might front Better Together 2.
I think Lord Belborough from children’s series Chigley is perfect.
Oops!
Someone sweep Mayhem into the under stairs cupboard for a second will you. 😀
link to twitter.com
At 5:28, the inappropriately named sensibledave proves yet again that he is completely out of his depth: while trying to sound intelligent, he demonstrates that he is unable to distinguish the meanings of words like “precedence” and “president.” Quel imbécile!
More on sensibledave at 5:28 –
Oh, and he doesn’t know how to spell “definitely,” and seems also to have a problem distinguishing between “know” and “no.”
@Arbroath1320
Re your post, here’s a wee video
link to twitter.com
I’ve seen and heard about 10 MEPs with a microphone stuck in their face getting interviewed on the BBC / SKY today and they are all saying the same thing.
Basically Scotland are in the EU once independent. 🙂
Why so many, last time only a couple were needed and the answer is they will keep trying until they get one who will tow the MSM line, which is not going to happen.
Radio 5 live got short thrift a wee while ago from MEP Hayes Eire who told them in spite of the interviewer trying to put words in his mouth.
Just after that a woman interviewer was going ballistic at Sinn Fein spokesperson at the prospect of a NI referendum to unify Ireland.
Finally Lord Campbell was on dishing NS and saying SNP very bad in Scotland while modestly turning down the opportunity to lead the ‘NO’ campaign this time, fobbing it off to a non-politician if you will.
J. K. Rowling quoth the interviewer, she’s very popular up there … isn’t she ???? Ming muttered she was but.
Good day on the radio and WoS twitter today. 🙂
I often wondered how many postal votes Coburn got ?
More on sensibledave the donkey at 5:28 –
Should we assume that he meant “independent country” and not “independent company?”
Twathater, Robert Louis
While accepting Tommy Sheppard did not have his best game on Daily Politic today, and endorsing your call for well-briefed SNP representatives on TV, this alone will not sort out the lies and BBC propaganda.
On political TV, there is a presumption on the part of the BBC that, their guys can sprout as much pish as they like, but, they will not debate, this.
What is needed is a decision by the SNP – we will no longer play by their rules.
Whenever someone brings up the £15 billion deficit, the SNP spokesperson HAS TO say: “Haud oan a meenit pal – that’s pish and you know it” and not let them, as is the convention, move onto the next item with the matter of the £15 billion deficit hanging there.
They have to be telt: “Naw, that’s a lie – because and have the lie explained. Even when they talk across them and try to move the debate on, the SNP spokesperson must stand firm and resolve the issue there and then.
I guarantee, after two or three instances of having their running order mucked up, and their lies exposed, the BBC will either start to play fair – which works for the independence cause, or they will have to stop letting the SNP onto their shows, which will backfire with the public.
The SNP spokesperson have to, if you like, get their retaliation in first. And, if Ruth, Kezia, Tompkins or whoever tries any of their nonsense, take the gloves off and gerrintaerum.
Stop being polite and playing nice. Be firm, be consistent and don’t stand for their nonsense.
Regarding the several posts concerning SNP MPs/MSPs and their performance in media interviews. I agree fully with the sentiments expressed. Its a mixed bag – some brilliant, others much less so – and overall they need to up their game.
This is not a role that everyone is comfortable with or best suited to: I readily admit it would be beyond me.
And its not just about having the key facts at one’s finger tips in order to rebut clearly and robustly. It is also about being expert in re-framing the whole discussion. I posted on recent threads some information on the work of the US professor of cognitive science and linguistics, George Lackoff.
Apologies for repeating this: Lakoff argues that ‘fact checking’ and refutation are not enough – will not be effective in changing views – if communicated within the same ‘frame’, i.e. your opponents frame . I look forward to seeing some change in approach along this or similar lines soon!
link to edition.cnn.com
I’ll be quite frank, there is one issue in my head which needs some Robert Peffers type guidance.
Supposing the credible scenario arises where Westminster seeks to refuse consent for the referendum, thus prompting the Scottish government to empower the referendum using Scotland’s own distinct sovereignty, doesn’t that set up a catch 22 situation?
If the Scottish government thus steps outside the “joined” parliamentary sovereignty of Westminster, and exercises Scottish parliamentary sovereignty independently to press ahead with the ScotRef, then doesn’t that act by itself signal the end of the Act of Union, thus making an actual referendum on ending the Act of Union quite unnecessary?
If Theresa May refuses to give Article 30 consent, it is a watershed event which formally brings down the final curtain on the Act of Union. The Scottish government doesn’t even need to act at all, merely exist as an entity. As Theresa May tries to subjugate Scottish sovereign aspirations, she exceeds her capacity and jurisdiction to do so, and simultaneously breaches the defining articles in the Act of Union, thus bringing it to an end.
Not only does Nicola have Theresa on the ropes right now, this is actually a check mate scenario. It doesn’t matter what Theresa does, if she contests Scottish sovereignty she breaches the Union and ends it, yet, if she respects Scottish sovereignty she respects a Scottish sovereignty distinct and separate from U.K. sovereignty, thus ending the Union.
Game over isn’t it? Unless somebody can change the laws of physics… no?
The Act of Union is at last, and quite properly, undone by its own lack of legal competence and inherently paradoxical frailty.
At Indy ref 1 interviews stuck th e boot in and we were too Nicey Nicey. We didn’t wish to upset he press or the BBC.
If Scotland I.s worth fighting for than fight.Challenge them at all stages
@Giving Goose
Can’t see Davidson leading No, her documented tweets and statements regarding the effects of leaving EU would be used to challenge her credibility. How could someone so vocally remain lead effectively a leave the EU campaign. But she is a Tory so you never know.
Chris Baxter says:
14 March, 2017 at 3:41 pm
“The United Kingdom is a member of the EU – not England or Scotland.”
NO the UK is a representative treaty between the member states of the UK which are the member states of the EU.
A Treaty cant be a member state. It cant be any kind of a State.
I know that there isn’t a hope in hell that any broadcaster would allow it to happen but how about 2 debates with balanced panels where the subjects for debate are restricted to the following:-
Program 1 – restricted to -The reasons why Scotland should be Independent and the benefits which would arise.
Program 2 – restricted to the reasons why Scotland should NOT be Indpendent and the benefits of remaining as part of The UK.
Could the media possibly be provoked and shamed into allowing such debates?
Socrates,
I wholly agree. On each and every occasion when these blatant falsehoods, like ‘oh you have a 15 billion deficit’ are used, they should be challenged on the spot. They MUST NOT be left hanging as though they are in fact correct.
We need some in the SNP who can do it, to get stuck in. If 2014 taught us anything, it is that the UK media will not countenance giving Scottish independence a fair hearing. Right now so-called ‘journalists’ are scouring the EU for somebody (anybody) who will state Scotland has to join a queue, and Spain opposes Scotland in the EU etc.. etc.. etc..
This is all the UK media do. They NEVER look at the issues properly at all. They are as anti Scottish and biased as they were in 2014.
The editorial policy seems to be ‘right who can we find to rubbish Scotland today’. It is offensive, it is nasty, and we need to stop just putting up with it.
@jfngw 5:29 pm
Great point.
From WoS twitter but archived from Telegraph.
Conservative MP Craig Mackinlay interviewed under caution over election expenses in South Thanet
link to archive.is
RE: TV representation.
I can think of only a handful of bods with the capability, confidence, experience and presence to take on a loaded studio. Pretty much all of our representatives can put together a good heartfelt standalone speech. Pretty much all of them have their heart in the right place. How effective they are as MPs I leave to their constituents to decide for themselves.
How and ever, they’re just people. Most, I gather, hadn’t even considered politics or representation before indyref or the following GE. Precious few are slick polished career politicians with ready wit or soundbite to hand and we should be thankful for that, because it very much makes them one of us.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but sitting in a studio with lights and camera pointed right at you and a loaded sofa would scare the living wossiname out of me. On a bad day, you’ll freeze, or be lost for the ready answer. You’ll be mobbed and humiliated. On a good day the answers will come, you’ll score hits and if your dander is up, give the opposition a roasting that they’ll never forget.
I’d reckon it takes time to build that kind of aggression, confidence and experience for some. For others it may come naturally.
But we should be aware right now that every interview is going to be an inherently hostile environment for our representatives. They’re going to have car crash interviews. They’re going to freeze in the headlights, get mobbed by loaded sofas and interviewers. They’re going to be bullied, patronised, sidelined and shouted over because the handful that are do have that experience can’t be everywhere or handling every telly appearance.
By all accounts, today Mr Shepard got seagulled. He’s a good, intelligent speaker. He’ll live and learn.
call me dave
I expected an official response from the eu regarding an indy scotland and today we got it
Margaritis Schinas, Chief Spokesperson of the European Commission and a Deputy Director-General at the Commission’s DG Communications
“Holyrood would have to seek membership of the European Union under Article 49 in the event of a ‘Yes’ vote in a future referendum” “The Barroso doctrine, would apply”
the A49 is the route new members need to apply to join the EU. Ms Jacqueline Minor, the European Commission’s Head of Representation in the UK, although widely misquoted in the press in Feb, did also say via A49
a50 is the route for continuing members or successor states, I think this was the hope of holyrood, if we win indyref2 before brexit, then we would not leave the eu/single market but be able to negotiate our EU or EFTA/EEA membership.
but it appears, that an indy Scotland will be treated as a new member, although it would probably be fast tracked due to the support you mentioned
upshot, it wont matter if indyref2 happens before or after we leave, I would prefer before for a number of reasons, but the indyref2 campaign needs to plan for the eventuality that we will be out before it happens
I’m reeling from Rep Scot, 10 minutes of reasons why a ind ref may not happen, even a replay of Mr Barroso from last time. And a clip of a Spaniard ‘saying something similar’, not sure what as there was no translation of what was said. According to BBC a referendum can’t happen unless authorised!
Misreporting Scotland up to their usual dirty tricks tonight.
Showing HoC debate we got to hear what May was saying but when it was Angus Robertson’s turn the sound was turned down so that we couldn’t hear his words and just to make absolutely sure the commentator talked over whatever he was saying.
Well done Donalda.
Nice to see the BBC going UKOK mad already but this is just one more reason planet toryboy wanted out of the EU. Pound loses value by the day and
link to bbc.co.uk
Social media firms in Germany could face fines of up to 50 million euros if they take too long to remove illegal content including fake news.
According to a new draft bill , individual executives could also be fined up to €5m euros for failing to act.
Justice Minister Heiko Maas (pictured) said: “We have to increase the pressure on social networks. Too little illegal content is deleted, it’s not deleted quickly enough and it looks like the operators of social networks aren’t taking their users seriously enough.”
The bill would among the toughest regulation social media companies face in any country.”
Robert J Sutherland@16.41,
This is one of the many reasons the ScotYoons are “bricking it”.
When Scotland becomes independent, all the snivelling troughers who see Westminster and the HOL as their pension cash-cow, will be told to GTF from North and South.
Have a wee look at our “Quality” Representation in the HOL, I wouldn’t piss on any of them if they were on fire.
The SNP are shouted down at every opportunity in Westminster, the party are showing the rest of Scotland what the ” equal family of nations” is really all about.
Indy Ref 2, I would have it tomorrow, the sooner the better.
The SNP are going to have to put on the DMs and start putting the boot in when blatant lies are being reported about Scotland.
BREAKING…
Theresa May to make emergency announcement at 9pm!!!
Our Tasmina gets a write up. We would never dream of mass deportations EU, whatever makes you think planet toryboy would use millions of lives as bargaining chips?
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk?
Only kiddin’ 🙂
Article 50 trigger day digital countdown clock delayed until further notice.
But..
0 centuries, 0 decades, 0 years, 0 months, XX days..
.. to go.
O/T gordon Wilson on ch4 news , I used to have a lot of respect for this man, not now like Sillars the pair of them can gtf. Maybe Massey Fergusons is too much but not far off it.
See some Tory is being investigated over the expenses scandal at the last ge. Maybe Mayhem will have to trigger another GE to keep her majority, things just get better 🙂
Regarding SNP MP’s on TV.
It is not easy appearing on these TV programmes especially when outnumbered and presented with a hostile host. They are not trying to let you make your point but catch you out on details you don’t know or that are even impossible to answer. When being attacked by all it requires quite a bit of self confidence or arrogance to come through it. After all look at Tompkins, talks nonsense but with great authority.
Re the deficiencies in SNP personnel performances.
We have to use humour.
They should be laughing when crap like GERS is spouted.
Hell, what’s the point of Sheppard having all those standup contacts and not using their expertise to school people in how to rip the Yoons a new one.
OT
Listening to Nicolas historic speech yesterday I was a bit disappointed I couldn’t hear the questions, I’ve enhanced the sound so the questions can be easily heard if anyone wants a copy it can be downloaded here
link to mediafire.com
Graeme
@ breeks.
I’ve been sort of making this comment all day regards asking, pleading and demanding permission for a referendum. Papers are full of this drivel as are the comments from unionists on Facebook.
In Nicola’s speech, she says that she will be seeking authority from the Scottish Parliament to agree terms with the UK gov on section 30. The only institution she is asking anything of is the Scottish Parliament, not westminster, not May.
Section 30 makes it a binding referendum, and on what terms make it so.
Past experiences with westminster, demonstrate that it is not likely to be worth the paper it is written on, be it vows, conventions or treaties.
If May does decide to discuss and put forward terms, then so does Nicola, and I’m pretty certain we could help her out with suggestions on what should be included.
May refuses to discuss terms, looks bad for May. May puts forward onerous terms, looks bad for May. Nicola could include independent observers, exit polls, May refuses looks bad for May.
What we sure as hell are not doing is asking permission to hold one, its not that we we actually need to. AS said there is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is.
Trouble at the Tory Mill…….
link to news.sky.com
nicola announces indyref2 before uk leaves
Article 50 bill passed
EU say a50 for an indy scotland and treated as a new member
spain says it will veto an indy scotland
nicola announces indyref2 could happen after uk leaves
a very smug treeza in the commons today
treeza just got back from europe, apparently she didnt discuss brexit
if i were a fisherman or perhaps even gibraltan, i woud be worried today
Lenny
Just listened to Gordon Wilson on channel 4. How can a man who once led the party sink to being a tool of the unionist media….perhaps just…being a fool covers it!
jfngw 6-51
Saw same Gentleman speak in broken English on BBC news 24 he said “everybody had lots of sympathy for Scotland and Scotland would meet all the criteria etc” .. no threat from him.
Hello my fellow Wingers, post regarding MSM interviews.
Donald Trump stood at the podium in the US Presidential election and called the American MSM out as “Utter Scum” and “liars”.
We could do with a bit of the Donald Trump School of Etiquette. (LOL)
Our representatives really need to get a grip during media Interviews.
The trick Trump learned during his Campaign was that the more abusive he was towards the MSM media, the more his support grew.
Got to be worth a try because the present situation has to come to an end..
Media training for all our reps is urgently required.
Folks I see Fraser nelson is peddling deficit myths again.
Please just take 6 minutes out and watch this video about how deficits actually work..
link to youtube.com
schrodingers cat @ 18:49,
(Old news. It was yesterday.)
To paraphrase Marx (Harpo): “there ain’t no Barroso Doctrine”. Barroso was just winging it solo on Andrew Marr’s little puppet show for his pal Cameron, and now it’s being resurrected by the BritNat media. Surprise, surprise. (Not sure why you would want to help them, though.)
And who exactly was the rentaquote? From Wikipedia:
So he’s a Barroso placeman!
This is the kind of dirty trick we can come to expect. Sources, sources, verify the sources!
What the BritNats fear most is precisely what makes us strongest.
As to further developments, I have the very strong impression that Nicola & Co. have gamed this whole thing very thoroughly in advance…
After all look at Tompkins, talks nonsense but with great authority.
He’s got the authority of what though? the planet toryboy that dumped austerity on the poorest and made the rich richer still. My Slovene girlfriend is the classic tory in a classic tory media, full of shit.
It has kept my Slovene girlfriend off Graun and Herald btl, but he’ll be back. He’s been touted as BetterTogether 2 leader but his insane rants btl have damaged his cred.
Fake news there:D
I have no idea if planet toryboy cares what my Slovene girlfriend says UKOK, btl Graun, but they should.
Geeo 7.16
This is the month when the extension to the investigation runs out. Chicken roosting time is here
Presumably a UK general election would have to be held if the Tories lost their majority.
I wonder if NS has taken this into her calculations.
For it would be very hard for the SNP to better the last result.
extraordinary explosion of vile misreporting right across the corporate and state media
even bbc radio ulster this evening descended to depths I have never heard plumbed – and that is saying something
Crick leading from the front again on channel 4 news, scouring scotland for opinions to support is obvious bias – not contet with his appalling list of untruths last night
Westminster and the press be like rule brokentania blah,down with the EU gibber,battle of Britain yada,it was those pesky foreigners wot did it,we will show them take back control and they will be ruined mahahhhaa empire 2.0.
EU be like are you going to sign A50 or not you fecking loonies.
Scotland be like jeez get us the feck out of here.
NI be like yea we agree with Scotland
Gibraltar be like hey dont forget about us
Wales be like oh fuck 🙁
What I find surprising is unionists going on about how successful the Union is when they’re discussing a proposal for Scotland to leave it. Half of Scotland and nearly half of Northern Ireland wanting to leave is not evidence of a successful Union.
Nigel Farage on LBC radio ra now says..
“The rest of the world call us Treasure Island!”
Aye, but whose treasure?
Robert J. Sutherland
Margaritis Schinas, Chief Spokesperson of the European Commission and a Deputy Director-General at the Commission’s DG Communications
nb EU Commission’s DG Communications……………keeps the Commission abreast of political developments and of trends in public opinion and the media. It also coordinates communication campaigns within the Commission.
no crystal ball required to note we will hear this guys name again.and again and again
a49 application for an indy scotland as a new member appears very much the EU’s position
“Nigel, we’re all making plans for you.”
How to frame an unbiased question, BBC training exercise 1
When talking to EU about Scotland.
‘Explain the difficulties of Scotland becoming a member of the EU, and why it will be near impossible?’
If the interviewee is not responding appropriately then cut him/her off.
Seems only appropriate.
You knew it!
link to youtube.com
Here’s another for the party:
link to youtube.com
Stop the cavalry!
BBC being very obliging just now in publishing Nicolas Tweet Questioning Maydays unelected premiership, how nice of them isn’t it.
Aye f/in Right taking the piss more like, and making sure the widest possible audience , give a collective Tut Tut , The good people of morningside whisper ,Imagine her questioning our wonderful PM ,the common hussy , just like that other one that black one who our wonderful professor called a slut . Pass the Gin Fiona .
I say more Tomkins please he is an absolute loonball. We’ve had wall to wall Prof Smirky lies on EBC today. No mandate etc we have to hope that there are folk out there who will decide to check the facts for themselves and find out Tomkins is as mad as tits on a he weasel.
Come across this on WoS twitter and archived it from F.Times.
What Nicola Sturgeon conjured from constitutional thin air
link to archive.is
If Scotland votes for independence, and rUK leaves EU, does Scotland remain in EU as the “UK”? If so, does Scotland take on all the debts and responsibilities of the UK?
Just a thought.