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Wings Over Scotland


A slight stramash

Posted on May 23, 2016 by

We thought it’d be worth making a timeline of Hampden on Saturday for posterity.

Because a lot of nonsense is being talked on all sides. This is the reality.

The footage above is an unedited extract of the live coverage on BBC1. As such it’s interrupted by some interviews with the Hibs manager and players, so we don’t get to see everything that happens on the pitch, but it’s still a useful guide to events overall and the timescale they unfolded in.

0m 18s: first Hibs fans seen entering pitch from East stand. (The camera positions at Hampden are in the main South stand.) Stewards are seen trying to hold back the tide but it’s an impossible task and they quickly get out of the way to avoid crushes and injuries as the fans pour forward.

0m18s

0m 38s: what looks like a Hibs fan shakes hands with “Rangers” striker Kenny Miller. From Miller’s facial expression and body language there’s no sign of hostility.

0m38s

0m 50s: most of the Ibrox side’s players can be seen leaving the pitch.

0m50s

0m 57s: one unidentified and dazed-looking “Rangers” player (to the left in the picture below) is helped towards the tunnel by what appear to be two club staff wearing black, as Hibs manager Alan Stubbs urges celebrating fans to get off the pitch.

0m57s

0m58s

1m 15s: “Rangers” goalkeeper Wes Foderingham, the furthest player from the tunnel when the final whistle blew, exits via the technical area after being subjected to some jostling from Hibs fans. (Having earlier been barged more roughly in the six-yard area.)

1m13s

Foderingham, in red, can be seen just left of bottom centre in the pic above. At this point, as far as we can ascertain, all players have left the field, apart from one Hibs player who is seen at the junction of the byline and halfway line at 1m 41s. (Lower left quadrant in shot below, between the two dotted technical areas. Click pic to enlarge.)

1m41s

At precisely the moment Foderingham disappears from view the BBC commentator notes that some “Rangers” fans have begun to invade the pitch too. This seems to contradict last night’s statement from the club that their supporters only came onto the field to protect their players from attack. By the time Foderingham comes off all their players were safely inside.

3m 5s: more or less the maximum extent of the invasion. The Hibs half of the pitch is full of supporters, and hundreds of fans of both sides are in the “Rangers” half too, with a few visible small scuffles taking place.

3m5s

3m 30s: some fans are still entering the pitch from the stands at the Hibs end. Police and steward presence on the pitch is still fairly minimal.

3m30s

4m 0s: police horses arrive from the West stand end.

3m59s

Two thinly-spread lines of police have already more or less entirely separated the two opposing sets of fans and begun to shepherd them back to their respective stands.

4m7s

4m 50s: there’s now a large space of perhaps 20 yards between the two main groups of supporters. One pocket of Hibs fans is still inside the “Rangers” half and appears to be goading the remaining fans in the North stand, to which the “Rangers” fans in the stadium respond with a couple of very loud choruses of “The Billy Boys”.

4m50s

Less than five minutes after the first fans crossed the hoardings and barely two minutes after the appearance of police in force, the violent disorder – such as it was – is effectively over. All that remains is to get everyone back off the turf.

6m 15s: the last Hibs player still pitchside, Jason Cummings, is taken inside and the tunnel doors closed.

6m15s

By now the police have calmed the shouting match at the opposite side of the field.

6m16s

7m 20s: the “Rangers” side of the pitch has been fully cleared, the West stand is all but empty and the mass of Hibs fans starts being ushered back into their seats.

7m20s

8m 5s: the atmosphere is now deemed to be calm enough for the Hibs players to come back out into the technical area.

8m5s

11m 16s: the evacuation progresses slowly and steadily, the police largely allowing the fans to move at their own pace. There are still perhaps 2000-3000 on the pitch.

11m16s

13m 11s: two minutes later the last couple of hundred stragglers are making their way off while the police line watches from a distance.

13m11s

16m 11s: after three more minutes the pitch is totally clear and the final few fans on the running track climb across the hoardings and into the East stand.

16m11s

And that’s that.

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  1. 23 05 16 12:56

    A slight stramash | speymouth

  2. 25 05 16 02:02

    SIGNINGS AND WHININGS – JABBA THE AGNIVORE

246 to “A slight stramash”

  1. Mik Johnstone says:

    #muchAdoAboutNothing … more spin than a spinney, spinning, spinner thing …

  2. bjsalba says:

    No real interest in Fitba, but think that the SFA might be bolder about taking action if their offices were not in Hampden Park.

  3. gillie says:

    So the two statements from Rangers are completely wrong about their own fans behaviour. Jim Traynor has done Rangers no favours at all. Surely Rangers can’t let these flawed statements stand.

  4. Free Scotland says:

    Wings is, as Tina Turner once sang:

    Simply the best,
    Better than all the rest …

  5. The Penman says:

    Fotheringham was “barged more roughly in the six-yard area”? Sounds painful.

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Fotheringham was “barged more roughly in the six-yard area”? Sounds painful.”

    I rewrote that about five times to make it sound less like an innuendo. “Barged in the goalmouth” was definitely worse…

  7. theMadMurph says:

    @Rev
    I rewrote that about five times to make it sound less like an innuendo.

    Come on let’s hear the others! Did you include being barged in the box?

  8. Bob Mack says:

    Spot on Rev. It would appear that people are ramping up grievance for their own agenda. I will note however that a couple of Rangers players were indeed subjected to physical abuse in that short period (namely Foderingham and Halliday),That is utterly unacceptable and I hope the perpetrators are severely dealt with.

    The statement by Rangers was deplorable and wrong on so many levels and used almost as a way of deflecting attention from their failure on the park onto a more common “enemy” I. E. anything not seen as sympathetic to the Rangers philosophy.

    Blind allegiance can have its benefits.

  9. Brian Powell says:

    Good series of coverage, I was wondering about this and how it all took place.

    Extremely useful evidence for people not there and for any inquiry, instead of tight shots designed to show the ‘violence’ and fulfil an agenda of some parties involved.

  10. “Much ado about nothing.” “A slight stramash.”

    At least 2 Rangers players were clearly assaulted on the pitch by what appears to be Hibs supporters. And yet, I’ve seen very little (if any) unconditional condemnation of this from anyone other than Rangers supporters.

    I can’t understand that, I must confess…

  11. Exactly, Stu

    Much ado about not a lot and being used for pretty nefarious purpose.

    So much has changed in recent years. When I was young the Celtic institution was disliked widely across Scotland. This has faded. Rangers are now becoming a pariah and for reasons those who run and own the club should contemplate seriously .

    The remaining bigotry and sectarianism in Scotland needs a hill to gather on and some of the Rangers support provides this.
    Coming from a not untypical mixed background I have a pretty clear vision about where we have been and how we must leave it behind.

    I know many traditional Rangers supporters who are agonising about the support once unconditionally given. I believe there was rioting and destruction across areas of Glasgow on Saturday evening. Not a lot of cover in the media but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Hibs supporters

    As a matter of interest I was at the Scottish Cup Final at Hampden in 1969(crowd 132,000). Celtic under big Jock beat Rangers 4 – 0. When the fourth goal went in there was a large scale and angry invasion of the pitch from the Rangers end which was dealt with by mounted police. The world didn’t come to an end and nobody suggested Rangers should be thrown out of any competitions.

  12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I will note however that a couple of Rangers players were indeed subjected to physical abuse in that short period (namely Foderingham and Halliday),That is utterly unacceptable and I hope the perpetrators are severely dealt with.”

    Absolutely, as I said in last night’s piece and mentioned again here.

  13. Valerie says:

    I know nothing of the sport, only sorry this sport game seems to always be at the centre of controversy, and I’m always sorry for the bad impression it projects of a minority.

    I said yesterday, I sincerely hope there is no criticism of police and stewards, who I think handled it fantastically well. I would speculate there would have been vanloads of police outside on surrounding streets, that had to be recalled fast into the ground.

    Pending their arrival, the horses, and stewards were getting into that big line position.

    I’m just glad there seems no serious injuries.

    I’m convinced there is a very organised network of ‘fight club’ types that travel to any match, any demonstrations etc for the sole purpose of aggro.

  14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “When the fourth goal went in there was a large scale and angry invasion of the pitch from the Rangers end which was dealt with by mounted police.”

    Invasion can be seen at 2m 32s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ai7kp_8cg

    Lots of them, though they only seem to make it as far as the running track and I don’t see any horses.

  15. Martin Richmond says:

    If you really want to understand this instead of debating minute by minute minutiae and throwing metaphorical rocks at each other based on who and what you think is to blame, then I’d recommend you read this and make your judgements based on facts.

    http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0042/00424891.pdf

    I wonder though if any of you involved in this discussion are ready to face a future without both of the Glasgow clubs most associated with this phenomenon (sectarianism)? It seems to me that this would be an effective shortcut to eradicating a problem that otherwise will perpetuate in Scotland for another generation (but no further).

    The poisonous hand of organised, institutionalised religion is undoubtedly at the root but starving it of two of its most effective totems would at least constrain its ability to set another generation against one another.

  16. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @13.14, Beattie Show, one of the journos he’s interviewing said that it took ‘a good ten minutes’ for the police horses to appear.

  17. barged near the penalty spot

    a good article highlighting how relatively innocuous it all was. In no way is any of the violence to be condoned. But neither should we have the hysteria that suggests it was anything comparable to the violence of the 70s and 80s

  18. Martin says:

    Valerie,

    You start your post by stating you know nothing of the sport, then proceed to tell us all what is wrong with it. I am not condoning what happened at the weekend, but sometimes when you don’t know what you are talking about its better to say nothing at all.

    Valerie says:

    23 May, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    I know nothing of the sport, only sorry this sport game seems to always be at the centre of controversy, and I’m always sorry for the bad impression it projects of a minority.

    I said yesterday, I sincerely hope there is no criticism of police and stewards, who I think handled it fantastically well. I would speculate there would have been vanloads of police outside on surrounding streets, that had to be recalled fast into the ground.

    Pending their arrival, the horses, and stewards were getting into that big line position.

    I’m just glad there seems no serious injuries.

    I’m convinced there is a very organised network of ‘fight club’ types that travel to any match, any demonstrations etc for the sole purpose of aggro.

  19. Janet says:

    Rangers fans don’t take kindly to loosing!

    Who jostled the Rangers players? Sense of entitlement and all that.

  20. I was in Buchanan St afore the march. I was unware that a match was on and saw lots of drunken Hibs fans, whom I took to be Celtic fans. They were pretty noisy and ropey looking, but friendly enough. I drove past St Vincent St turning into West Nile St and lots of more respectable looking Hibs fans were cheering and giving the thumbs up to my Saltire ear muffs on my wing mirrors. I pulled the windae doon and telt them I was a Jags fans. They seemed OK with that and good natured. A down and out looking drunk with no colours kissed my wing mirrors and wave both hands up in support. I telt the fans that was two of us and they were still OK.

    Sorry to hear the a Rangers spokesperson was actually shocked at eh fans behaviour. He must have led a sheltered life.

  21. David says:

    The pocket of Hibs fans at 4m 50s was actually Rangers fans. The reason the rendition of the Billy Boys was so audible is probably because the microphones to pick up crowd noises are there.

  22. Golfnut says:

    Actually, the police did a really good job.

  23. chalks says:

    I would also point out re the football and the offensive behaviour act, you can clearly hear rangers fans singing on the pitch, their unoffical club song, hello hello, with battalions of police in front of them.

    Now, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that song offensive behaviour as deemed so by the legislation, so why are none of them arrested? Why will none of them BE arrested and why will they always be allowed to carry on with it, whilst the ‘provincial’ teams and notably, lesser numbers, get a hard time off the police for singing non-sectarian songs?

    If the OBAF act is working, then why isn’t it being used to stop old firm fans? Is it because there are thousands singing the songs and it’s actually futile to stop them and easier to go after non old firm, non sectarian singing fans, as the legislation is broad and such a grey area that a policeman can do a fan under the legislation for merely calling someone a twat.

  24. Artyhetty says:

    Not a fan of football, but good to read analysis on what took place on Saturday, it affects how Scotland is viewed globally. The hooligan red top and their masters are not gonna let this one go, not for a wee while yet.

    O/T
    sorry so soon, nothing to do with football, but you might weep at this, short film about gender stereotypes, prejudices starts early, and in fact comes from what is portrayed, in books, on tv, in magazines, everywhere, it makes you think. Take a look. Somehow, it’s even more worrying as it’s 2016, not 1916. Have we moved into the 21st century at all, how free are we, and just what mechanisms exist that create and perpetuate divide, prejudice and even hatred, and of course, othering.

    http://www.commondreams.org/further/2016/05/22/teach-your-children-well

  25. Harry Shanks says:

    I doubt many would argue that it was the Hibs fans who were mainly at fault for scenes which Scottish football could well do without.

    The argument can only be about how much responsibility the Rangers fans bear in contributing to the disorder.

    Putting that to one side for now – impartial observers will clearly see through the smokescreen emanating from Rangers FC press office.

    The clear intention of Rangers FC is to play the victim card for all its worth in the hope that:

    A) The manufactured outrage will obscure any scrutiny which might fall on the clearly sectarian songs being bellowed out from the “Rangers end” from start to finish, and

    B) Hibs are disqualified (by the SFA) as Scottish representatives in the Europa League, and replaced by Rangers.

  26. Northern uproar says:

    Why O why is Stewart Hosie MP ushering Jason Cummings down the tunel?.. The @snp are taking this OBAF legislation way too seriously ?

  27. Calum McKay says:

    Rangers / Jim Traynor using the Portsmouth defence of getting your retaliation in first.

    Any violence towards rangers players is completely unacceptable!

    Hibs fans running onto the pitch is understandable, though not condoned!

    At the endorsement the day, a lesson learned, perhaps throwing additional booze into the mix and allowing sectarianism to thrive unchallenged is not the way to go!

    Anyone heard any pearls of wisdom from James Kelly since Saturday?

  28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Now, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that song offensive behaviour as deemed so by the legislation, so why are none of them arrested?”

    Because there are thousands of people singing it and about two polis there to arrest them all.

  29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “At least 2 Rangers players were clearly assaulted on the pitch by what appears to be Hibs supporters. And yet, I’ve seen very little (if any) unconditional condemnation of this from anyone other than Rangers supporters.”

    Then you must have been going around with some extraordinarily thick blinkers on. I condemned it absolutely in last night’s piece, calling for zero tolerance and lifetime football bans on top of prosecutions. But if you choose not to read that, fair enough.

    (And that said, neither appears to have been in the least bit actually hurt.)

    If you’re going to whinge that nobody condemned something, don’t come to a place that unequivocally did.

  30. Luigi says:

    Valerie says:

    23 May, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    I said yesterday, I sincerely hope there is no criticism of police and stewards, who I think handled it fantastically well.

    I agree. The police response was appropriate, rapid and effective. The fact that thousands of fans on the pitch were quickly separated from potential trouble and shepherded apart and safely off the pitch was quite impressive. However, the chinless wonders at the SFA have been embarrassed and they need a scapegoat – somebody will be blamed. I don’t know if there was any isolated, serious incidents, but to listen to some of the sensationalist exaggerations by some reporters, who ought to know better, you would think that WW3 had broken out.

  31. heedtracker says:

    Swivel eyed loony accounts differ though:D

    Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins May 21
    I was at the game. Well played to Hibs. But their fans’ pitch invasion was disgraceful and frightening.

  32. OT Correction. Initially internet sources were saying Hofer had won because he had a 51.9% to 48.1% lead after the 2nd round.

    However, because postal votes yet to be counted could swing it back to Van der Bellen (Independent/Green) they have said “too close to call”. It is expected that postal votes will be more inclined to support Van der Bellen. Here’s hoping that happens.

  33. Legerwood says:

    What about the smoke flares that were set off during the match? In one of the news clips that I saw on Saturday night there was smoke billowing behind one of the goals when one of the goals was scored.

    Agree the police and stewards handled it well. Once the invasion got beyond a certain point trying to push the fans back into the fans who were coming on would have been a recipe for disaster.

  34. Dan Huil says:

    Well played, Rev. But of course the britnat newspapers and britnat bbc will continue to indulge in hysterical reporting [!] in favour of britnat football teams.

  35. DerekM says:

    Ach Rev it doesnt matter if you put the facts down the loyalist finger pointers will still claim it wasnt their fault for coming on the pitch when they lost the match.

    I can understand why the hibs fans did they were a wee bit excited even if what they did was wrong.

    Both are to blame and both should now face possible sanctions for the good of the rest of Scottish football.

    Oh and Celtic fans how many of you were wearing a Hibs scarf hmmm,and dont say none we smaller clubs do notice the increase in our support and the new faces appearing when we play either of the old firm.

  36. Socrates MacSporran says:

    As the dust settles after Saturday, it will be very interesting to see what the SFA does with their investigation into the events.
    As was shown when Rangrs went bust, and Charles Green and his henchmen formed the Rangers Tribute Act – in Scottish football, there is one rule for “Rangers”, another for every other club. There are great similarities between the fall of Third Lanark in 1967 and Rangers in 2012 – except, a Third Lanark Tribute Act was never given the opportunity to start again from the bottom tier.
    Had the SFA and the SPL as then was decided “Rangers no more” Saturday would not have happened.
    So, since the RTA are somehow, “special” in the eyes of the SFA, will they get special treatment, or will the fact that Hibs is the club of Rod Petrie, the SFA’s Vice-President and as such “heir presumptive” to the top job, see the SFA going easy on Hibs – who have at least acknowledged the fact some of their fans were in the wrong on Saturday?
    Long experience leads me to believe, the SFA will fudge the issue.
    The post-match events have, to a degree, taken the heat off the offensive behaviour during the game of the massed ranks of the RTA. This is unfortunate, however, the post-match events will surely silence calls for repeal of OBFA.
    As far as the offensive singing goes, modern technology and all-seater stadia has the answer. It is now possible to identify from where the offensive singing is coming. It is well-known that the worst offenders are the hard-core of season ticket-holding fans, who are also members of the official supporters clubs.
    It would be easy to pinpoint the sections from which the singing was coming, and to cross-reference the season ticket holders who have these seats. By further cross-reference with supporters club membership lists, it would be possible to conclude: x members of supporters club y were singing offensive songs during match z.
    First offence, a warning. Second offence, the whole membership of that supporters club is banned for three games. Third offence, that supporters club is banned, as are the members.
    Self-policing would shut-up the Bams pretty damned quick.
    Then, they could start on the harder-to-identify independent fans, but, here too, if the will was there and the available equipment used properly, in short order, they would be driven from the game.
    This will not, of course, happen – Sectarianism sells.

  37. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ‘I wonder though if any of you involved in this discussion are ready to face a future without both of the Glasgow clubs most associated with this phenomenon (sectarianism)?”

    I certainly am. Fuck both of ’em. Sooner England takes them the better.

  38. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The pocket of Hibs fans at 4m 50s was actually Rangers fans. The reason the rendition of the Billy Boys was so audible is probably because the microphones to pick up crowd noises are there.”

    Eh? That’s nonsense. There’s a link to a video clip showing Hibs fans goading “Rangers” ones in the North stand. And there are several videos of the singing that were taken in the crowd, not from TV footage. It’s VERY loud and a LOT of people are doing it.

  39. HandandShrimp says:

    OK there was only about 3 minutes of handbag trading (from just after the 1st minute to when the police started separating them at 4th minute)

    …but for that 3 minutes it was like total mayhem it could easily have been Aleppo…..well maybe no.

    I knew the stramash hadn’t lasted long but I hadn’t realised that it was that short. There was no reason at all why the Rangers team couldn’t have gone up for their medals. Everyone was back in their seats after 15 minutes.

  40. Haggishunter says:

    Dear SFA, Can you please deduct points or impose fines on any team whose fans sing derogatory songs, because Scotland seems to have an historic sectarian problem.

    Dear Murdo Fraser, how’s the repealing of offensive behavior at football laws coming along for you sir? Need a bit more time to think about this one?

  41. gun ainm says:

    excellent summary and decent counter to much of the hyperbole and disinformation out there.

    I’d add one point of clarification…in the text @ 4.50 it should be noted that the ‘rangers’ fans had been signing that song and others earlier. Secondly while there were some foolhardy Hibs antagonists goading the other side, prior to the ‘minority’ of ‘rangers’ fans singing their ‘party song’ it felt pretty low key. Afterwards saw a significant up-scaling of numbers and tension as many celebrating Hibs fans reacted to the provocation. I think the video evidence bears this out.

    As Hibs fans we need to look at ourselves hard after this, we know that. However the bile and abuse given out by the ‘rangers’ fans on Saturday, and indeed every time we meet, is a major contributory factor to why this played out as it did. Scotland needs to address sectarianism. GGTTH.

  42. Martin says:

    Both sets of fans let the game down. My money is on only one of the clubs issuing a statement to that effect however, which is another problem in Scotland.

    The police response was world class and deserves praise. Unfortunately I see there are all sorts of professional moaners all over the internet bemoaning the “inadequate policing.” Because having thousands of Police surrounding the pitch after what had been a fairly good natured game of football would have been received well, would it? I feel for the polis sometimes, they just canae win.

  43. orri says:

    @DerekM

    Think you highlighted in your post why punishing clubs for the actions of alleged fans is problematical when you asked how often supporters of non Old Firm teams have their ranks swollen. IF it turns out that those identified as assaulting Rangers players, or even fans, normally follow Celtic then would it be fair for Hibs to take the punishment?

  44. LesRoches says:

    This is why I like Wings soooo much. Precise analysis from what was shown on TV as it happened. Both sides share responsibility and should be punished. The SFA need to get their house in order and the press need to learn after Hillsborough that not sticking to the facts will be found out. They should also be humped. And to think, people are still pushing for the sectarian legislation to be scrapped, plus if Kez had her way we could all drink in the stands before, during and after. The Polis must wonder what planet their on at times.

  45. Jim Mitchell says:

    Just to make sure we had all the facts bbc Scotland’s lunch time news had the unbiased expert on stewarding Archie Mc person giving his tuppence worth.

    No I can’t stand him either!

  46. heedtracker says:

    O/T comic relief, Kevrage, UKOK zealot, toryboy and all round vote NO or else your bankrupt Scotland ProjectFearing con artist, today griping about George Osborne’s latest vote stay in the EU or your bankrupt England ProjectFearing. Total lack of self awareness is a definitely a yoon trait.

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 3h3 hours ago
    I know this is how politics works – but definite assertions about an uncertain future do irritate me

  47. Alasdair Macdonald says:

    A useful contribution to the discussion, Mr Campbell. This matter needs to be looked at calmly rather than instantaneous condemnation.

    If players were assaulted, albeit in a jostling way, if that is what it was, it is not acceptable and attempts should be made to identify the perpetrators and bring them to justice. With a number of TV cameras at the match there will be a lot of footage for examination, much more than viewers saw, because of production decisions, such as interviews with players and officials. In addition, the majority of people have mobile phones and so there will be additional footage, if the owners wish to share it.

    We do not wish to see kneejerk imposed solutions such as the infamous barriers around the perimeter, which caused so many deaths at Hillsborough. We also have to clarify the legitimacy of penalties being imposed on clubs and organisations when the transgressions were perpetrated by others.

    Despite the efforts to curb pitch invasions – which have been reasonably successful – they still go on throughout the football world and most of those involved are exuberant and harmless. We saw it at Leicester, Kilmarnock, Millwall in the past month and I am sure at many other grounds. Neither stewards nor police can halt such mass invasions at the start, but, by good crowd control policing things can be calmed and order restored pretty quickly. I though the police management of the invasion was exemplary.

    I am a football fan – I played until well into my 40s, I ran teams, I attend matches. It is a great game, but, unfortunately it attracts a small proportion of ‘heidbangers’ (I do not like to use pejorative language, but it saves a lot of words!) These are players who cheat and foul, using the game as an excuse to assault others, there are coaches and managers who should be advised to leave and there are fans who exploit such mass events for their own thuggish purposes.

    Sadly, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee, Utd, Hearts, Hibs and Rangers, being clubs with large followings have, historically had ‘sectarian’ adherents who pursue their bile via the teams. The vast majority – overwhelming – of the fans of these clubs are decent people. However, they and people like me need to consider how we rid the game of such incubi, who do not attach themselves to rugby clubs, for example.

  48. Robert Graham says:

    How exactly does this further the Independence cause , Will this outpouring of hatred by some here convince people who voted against independence to change their minds , is the hatred and bile expressed by some here a better brand of hatred than those who they condemn ?.
    This site by accident or Design has now descended to the same level as the more unsavory fanzine sites that most normal people avoid well done mission accomplished the division continues and the quest for independence fades further into the distance.

  49. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Graham,

    “This outpouring of hatred” How does it feel to take it personally? Yes that is what it is and why we want rid of it, and why it causes such a reaction. By implication you think either it should ignore it and leave them alone and say nothing.

    Personally I have had enough of it.For over 50 years as a Glasgow resident I watched fights,stabbings,slashings. Bottles thrown through bus windows,kids maimed and scarred,young men killed by having their throat cut,or thrown from a flyover. I have treated them,endured them ,been threatened by them.You name it.

    It is time to bring the curtain down on this tribalism and on those who Propogate it for profit ,regardless on which side of the divide you stand.

  50. heedtracker says:

    Robert Graham says:
    23 May, 2016 at 2:40 pm
    How exactly does this further the Independence cause ,

    How exactly does this further the unionist cause? Prof Tomkins MSP is a Rangers fan but its unlikely his twit MSP colleague’s an Ibrox season ticket holder.

    Murdo FraserVerified account
    ?@murdo_fraser
    Rangers 5 Celtic 4 – The Queen’s 11 deliver Her Majesty the perfect Birthday present

    Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins May 21
    I was at the game. Well played to Hibs. But their fans’ pitch invasion was disgraceful and frightening.

  51. heraldnomore says:

    So glad the Scottish Cup Final on my agenda looms ever closer, at Rugby Park this Sunday, with coverage live on BBC Caesar!

    Don’t think the horses will be needed.

    Beith V Pollok, 4.05ko. #MTLN

  52. Proud Cybernat says:

    “barged near the penalty spot”

    If that were true, Rangers would have been awarded a penalty.

  53. Ian Brotherhood says:

    John Beattie spoke to Gordon Waddell (Record) and Matthew Lindsay (Evening Times). Starts at Ih11m.

    GW (1h14m40s): It took a good ten minutes for the horses and the ‘rump’ of police staff who were there to get on the pitch and start moving things backwards.’

    GW (1h17m): ‘I saw two Rangers players and a Rangers coach taking a severe kicking at one point.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bfw0x#play

  54. Kev says:

    The presence of mounted police is very effective – if they were deployed at each end behind the goals shortly before the final whistle then i’m sure many would’ve thought twice about taking to the pitch – no need therefore for hundreds of police. (Btw after watching the footage again I think the police did a great job and could not have predicted the invasion happening)

  55. DerekM says:

    Yes orri that is a problem but it should be up to the club to police their own fans,if they are letting non supporters of their club cause trouble then the club should get punished for not stopping it.

    The only way to deal with football violence is threaten clubs with heavy financial penalties,they will soon have banning orders on certain individuals.

    I know its a bit heavy handed and that most neutrals that go to see a match are just football fans and maybe a bit unfair to punish them for the act of a few eejits,but by punishing them it soon leads to fans getting rid of the louts by grassing them into the club,its working in England.

  56. Marylyn says:

    Robert Graham you are so right.

    All this talk of agendas, etc when this blog is consistently displaying all the signs of its own agenda.

    I can’t help but wonder how WOS would have analysed and reported this had the positions been reversed on Saturday.

  57. Tinto Chiel says:

    Thanks for an excellent and cool analysis, Rev.

    It makes Gordon Smith’s alleged comparison with the 1980 mega-riot ridiculous.

    The poison of sectarianism has been used to divide and rule the Scots for so long it can be difficult to eradicate but this incident would have been a lot worse if alcohol had been widely consumed: think about it Kezia.

    I wouldn’t be too worried about these scenes being “beamed around the world” to our discredit, as some have fretted about. Most people round the world don’t give a toss about Scotland. Why should they? About half the people here don’t seem to either.

    And the grass is always greener on the other side. The Bundesliga is held up as a model to other countries but alcohol is consumed there and there are frequent public order problems at football grounds.

    Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this will be that the Yoons will find it harder to argue for OBFA’s repeal.

    Should be interesting to hear Jackson Carlaw’s trenchant aperçus on the topic 😛

  58. Brian Powell says:

    The police handled the the invasion very well, and it should be clear the police handling didn’t start and finish in the grounds.

    It stretched from Edinburgh onto the trains, from the Glasgow station to the grounds and the surrounding area, through Glasgow after the match, back to Edinburgh and the celebrations there.

    I was talking to someone who travelled from Edinburgh to Glasgow, saw the huge police presence and there was no trouble.

    It will be interesting to see what comes of Adam Tomkins questions that must be answered or Willie Rennie’s continual wittering about the single police force and OBFA.

  59. Inverclyder says:

    Calum McKay says:

    Anyone heard any pearls of wisdom from James Kelly since Saturday?

    Nothing since Saturday but to be fair the last time there was anything worth listening to was when he was born and the midwife slapped him.

  60. carjamtic says:

    Football A Force for Good

    Encouraged by what is written,most people agree it was a stoater of a game,for most fans it is and always will be the beautiful game.

    It is has been hijacked by those at the top….divisive,violent,racist and bigoted are just a couple of recent decriptions,who could argue with that,not many.

    An opportunity exists right now,to lay down the law,create some new ground rules,yes,fine both clubs,review safety procedures etc.

    Beyond that,give every club a new direction of travel,show some leadership at the SFA,they must have a zero tolerance policies,on all of these poisonous issues,they must show the way.

    Young people enjoy football….football could be important in helping with young people with mental health issues for example,it could be the beautiful game again.

    Excellent analysis Rev.

  61. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Will this outpouring of hatred by some here convince people who voted against independence to change their minds…”

    Will those merrily singing along with their N. Irish ‘pals’ “…we’re up to our knees in fenian blood…” ever support independence? What do you think? Do you think such ‘songs’ are conducive to a cohesive society?

  62. Lenny says:

    I heard Gordon Waddle and Matthew Lindsay when John beattie asked why there is a feeling from Rangers FD and that Rangers are disliked Lindsay replies I ts because they are the biggest and most successful club in Scotland. Home out of touch is he or us doing spin for Rangers. Disgraceful journalism

  63. Haggishunter says:

    Just been reading some of the Sectarian disagreements on Twitter.
    Man, that is one fekked up subject, with no solutions.

    Hey Murdo Fraser tell us your plan to halt sectarianism, should we allow alcohol at matches?

    Maybe ban the Rangers guys from carrying Scottish flags, only Brit ones, like a uniquely Brit Nat club, for unionists,for her majesty to behold.

  64. desimond says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    23 May, 2016 at 2:21 pm

    ‘I wonder though if any of you involved in this discussion are ready to face a future without both of the Glasgow clubs most associated with this phenomenon (sectarianism)?”

    I certainly am. Fuck both of ’em. Sooner England takes them the better.

    WTF…Saturday had nothing even to do with Sectarianism as such, so lets stay on topic even before anyone starts dragging Celtic into this please?

    BTW…This is just the start of it, prepare for a long season for when reality bites, it clamps its jaw

  65. chalks says:

    ‘Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    23 May, 2016 at 1:43 pm
    “Now, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that song offensive behaviour as deemed so by the legislation, so why are none of them arrested?”

    Because there are thousands of people singing it and about two polis there to arrest them all.’

    That is the case everywhere they go in Scotland.

    That is my point, the legislation is being used to hammer normal fans and a blind eye is turned to the two groups of parasites in scottish football.

    There is always ‘too many’ old firm fans to arrest, so they just don’t bother. It’s a joke.

    They could actually go back over the footage and ID every singer of the bigoted songs and do dawn raids on them, but they won’t. Why not? Because there is too many of them.

    Perhaps you should do an article on the polices approach to administering the legislation. The legislation was put in place to try and sort out sectarianism, amid a bluster of media coverage, it has done little to sort it and I may add that the fact people think it has been a success is more to do with rangers being out of the spotlight for a few years as anywhere they and celtic go, the songs and bigotry follows.

  66. Luigi says:

    Perhaps the only good thing to come out of this will be that the Yoons will find it harder to argue for OBFA’s repeal.

    They are going to look even more stupid than they already do, if they continue to pursue their anti-OBFA agenda, following the incident on Saturday. They won’t take the public with them on this one. Not advisable, but these are raging yoons and so you can’t rule out gross stupidity.

  67. Gonnajustsayaye says:

    @DerekM.
    Hibs have a big enough following to sell out their own 22k ticket allocation among their own fans. It was nothing to do with Celtic fans or any other team. Scotlands smaller clubs also have their own heidbangers. Hearts Aberdeen Hibs all have had significant casual groupings , football hooliganism is not confined to Glasgow clubs. Its a bit of a myth that its only Glasgow clubs that cause trouble.

    I am a bit of a football nut and have been to football matches in the Netherlands Belgium Spain and Germany among others. You might not think it reading some of our media. Football matches in Scotland are generally quiet sedate affairs not as the media would have you believe. In Holland its like a military operation to keep rival fans apart even with tunnels built from the train station to the turnstyles . In Belgium I have seen riot Police fire CS gas cannisters to keep Standard Liege and Anderlecht fans apart
    Yes Saturdays incidents should not have happened The article sums it up. A pitch invasion big wow, some minor scuffling no injuries and the Police for once did not over react and make the situation worse ,they quietly got the fans off the pitch.
    Saturdays post match incidents do not merit the media coverage they getting

  68. shiregirl says:

    Bored out my skull at the prolonged post mortem of events, what-iffery and people arguing their version of events. Thank you, Rev, for bringing to us this version of what actually happened. How can people argue otherwise as to what happened?!

    Amazes me that so many people have such different versions of events depending on who they support. I have absolutely no time for anyone who brings religion into sport. What level headed person of normal intelligence would?

    Nothing like this ever happened at a Meadowbank Thistle game…

  69. Wemweb says:

    Clearly players were assaulted and arrests this week will justify Rangers FC statement.

  70. Proud Cybernat says:

    For the Rangers and Celtic fans on WoS who support Indy I say this to you both – you are not being persecuted. But some of the ‘songs’ you sing ARE being persecuted. They have no place in any decent society, are a relic of Unionism and will have no place in Indy Scotland. They are a cancer and it must be rooted out if we are to win over the blinkered by hate unioists. (Yes, I’m that optimistic – or daft. I think anythibg’s possible).

    Dunmp the songs of hate. That’s how we start. And if you support Scottish Indy and see your pals or other engaging in such hate-fest songs, then you should intervene and shame such stupid insividuals.

    [blockquote]The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.[/blockquote]

    Good men AND good women. We need to root out this cancer in Scotland and it starts with the good, indy-supporting folk on the terraces calling time on these idiots. And if they can’t do it then they must vote with their feet. Hit the club where it hurts the most – in its pocket. They’ll quickly get the message.

    And, in case of any misunderstanding – this is directed at BOTH sets of fans of the Old Firm. This sectarianism is a cancer of Unionism. Let’s dump the lot.

  71. Grouse Beater says:

    If I had suffered defeat after defeat and waited 114 years to win the championship I’d be swarming all over my home city in celebration …. erm hold on a minute.

  72. Martin says:

    @Robert Graham,

    Sorry, but as lovely as your cigar shop is you are well off the mark here. Wings as a site is a pro independence site that scrutinises the media. The media reporting of the cup final was flawed, hence the scrutiny and analysis.

    Football is used here as an example of what the media do. Hidden info, printed lies, knee jerk reactionism. The point is to show us the tricks that we may see through them next time.

  73. Big Jock says:

    We didn’t think it was possible but Rangers have actually managed to come back after 4 years, worse than they were before.

    The last violence at a Scottish cup final game was 2011 when Rangers were in the final. the first vilolence in 5 years and guess who is in the final?

    If you create hate your whole life expect repurcussions.

  74. DerekM says:

    @ Gonnajustsayaye

    Blow it out your arse

  75. Clootie says:

    My first and last comment on this nonsense.

    I do not condone the pitch invasion or any threats or attacks.

    However given the behaviour of Rangers fans over many, many decades in pushing division via their sectarian behaviour in Scotland I know which team is the greater curse on Scotland.

    I grew up with these small minded bigots (I include most of my family) and the damage they have done to our nation makes the events of the article appear trivial.

    I have been in the company of these supporters when the bigots sing – and it is the majority. I recall a nudge on the back from a red faced thug wishing to know why I wasn’t singing the words of hate.

    I know it will upset “…the good supporters” but I’m afraid support for this team is support for a wound which keeps Scotland divided.

    They are mere pawns of the unionists as they turn Scot against Scot. The Rangers press release proved that.

  76. Gonnajustsayaye says:

    @DerekM and stick a fork up yours and twist

  77. Andy-B says:

    No mention though of the newco singing sectarian songs or letting off flares.

    The Scottish Cup is the SFA’s show piece they should fine themselves for not having proper police and steward coverage. They should give the fine money to charity.

    Finally the OBFA, or Orange B*stard Football Act should not be repealed. James momodrone voiced Kelly and the unionist parties haven’t a clue.

    They want to keep Scotland divided through religious bigotry to profit the union.

  78. Big Jock says:

    Clootie – You are right. It’s not a minority. It’s the majority. From the directors to corporate tickets down , they all sing these songs. In the closed game in Italy the directors could be heard singing those songs.

    That’s Rithies unionist support against the rest of Scotland!

  79. Valerie says:

    @Martin

    I freely admitted I know nothing about the sport, so I didn’t comment on the sport – can you even read properly?

    I know an arrogant asshole, when I read his comments.

    I’m not allowed to commend police handling, or regret that football is marred?

    Fuck off.

  80. Big Jock says:

    George Square 2014….end of no debate. No moral highground when they burn my nations flag!

  81. Proud Cybernat says:

    “George Square 2014….end of no debate. No moral highground when they burn my nations flag!”

    And terrorise wee lassies:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlyNDF-hX0U

  82. Iain More says:

    I wonder how the SFA can possibly be allowed to investigate this. I am guessing that Stewart Regan will be part of any whitewashing I mean “investigative committee” and we know he isn’t impartial.

    I was reminded today of another pitch invasion by ironically a Rangers fan. On that occasion Rangers were losing 3-0 to Motherwell in a league game until that invasion. Rangers had ironically enough Aberdeen breathing down their necks for the League title that season. Rangers won that game 5-3 but did the then Scottish League take any action against the then Rangers. Answer would fit on a postage stamp with two letters only required! Rangers would hang on to win the league that season.

  83. Big Jock says:

    In a funny sort of way it was good what happened, and better that it was Hibs.

    It shows the rest of Scotland what they are. It shows unionism for what it really is. These Tory MSP’s are just like the fans. They didn’t even want a Scottish parliament, but will take the salary!Rangers don’t want a Scotland national team, but will take the money and the Euro spots when they can . It’s narrowed the debate . This is the new politics.

    The Union versus Scotland!

  84. Martin says:

    Valerie,

    I saw your post and wondered what I had said to offend you. Then I realised I’m not the only “Martin” on this thread. This is very confusing. I made the “Both teams let the game down” and the Robert Graham response with the (exceptionally hilarious) quip about cigar shops. The other Martin said nasty things to you. Not sure how we’ll differentiate us going forward.

  85. Andy Law says:

    I was a plookie youth in the early 70s and in late summer was engaged in the task of hedge cutting my Mum and Dad’s extensive hedge with an electric trimmer. Unknown to me there was a wasps’ byke in said hedge and I chopped through it with the trimmer: after about 20 seconds of reflection and realisation on what I’d done I felt a few sharp pains, which on reflection turned out to be stings – three in total – before I flung the trimmer down and raced off up the garden out of the way. That taught me not to cut through a wasps’ byke again – and if you do, don’t just stand there like an eedjit – it can have nasty consequences.

    A wee bit similar really to the Hibs fans who taunted the Rangers supporters on Saturday – but unlike me and the wasps they were probably aware of the possible consequences and maybe thought it would be a bit of a jape to poke the nest with a bit of a stick. No doubt they’ll now know that a 114 year wait does not change the nature of the beast.

  86. Big Jock says:

    Rangers can bully the press, the SFA , other clubs and the BBC. But they have crossed the line when they try and bully the Scottish Government and teh First Minister. I don’t expect her to take this lying down!

    Why didn’t their statement jsut be done with and blame the country of Scotland.

  87. Valerie says:

    Just for clarity.

    The Martin I’m telling to fuck off is at 1.19pm.

    There is apparently some list in his tiny head of things I’m allowed to comment on.

    To the other, Martin. I usually put the timing of the comment in, that I’m referring to, so hope that clarifies.

    I love the way these self appointed site police just appear, and tell you that you have no right opening your mouth, even when what I said was fairly innocuous, and parts agreed with by others.

  88. chalks says:

    Rangers also invaded the pitch at Pittodrie in 1987 when they won the league and proceeded to trash the stadium.

    They are vermin, but it’s important their bigot brothers are not let off either, they can only exist with each other.

  89. bjsalba says:

    Should you feel strongly you could write to the SFA at:
    The Scottish Football Association Ltd,
    Hampden Park,
    Glasgow G42 9AY

    Or maybe e-mail them at:
    info [at] scottishfa [dot] co [dot] uk

    From the SFA Website

  90. Proud Cybernat says:

    “The Union versus Scotland!”

    A sick, cancerous, intolerant, divisive, hate-filled, No Surrender, anti-democratic, anachronistic, corrupt, rotten-to-the-core BritNat Unionism?

    Or…

    A healthy, tolerant, inclusive, at ease with itself, fair, considerate, progressive, democratic indy Scotland?

    It’s no’ a difficult choice. And this is why a gowing movement of the people of this country and why a majority in Scotland’s parliament, reject everything Unionism stands for. UNIONISM is a CANCER and and has been in this country for centuries. We must now root it out for the good of eeryone–including those most happy with their cancer.

  91. euan0709 says:

    I don’t have a great deal of interest in fitba one way or another, however the screams of righteous indignation from Rangers FC and their fans is absolute hypocrisy..
    Remember Manchester ?
    Remember George Square Glasgow 19th Sept 2014 and the Vanguard Bears and their English Defence League buddies burning Scottish Flags and terrifying innocent Men, Women and Children………..?????
    I am sure somebody out there could add to the list !!!!!!!!

  92. Dan Huil says:

    The britnat hysteria displayed by the britnat media will only sicken the vast majority of people in Scotland. The britnat media is just desperate to see violence in Scotland.

  93. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Clearly players were assaulted and arrests this week will justify Rangers FC statement.”

    Yes, clearly players were assaulted, as we’ve consistently said. But no, nothing will justify that absolutely batshit moon-howl of a statement.

  94. heedtracker says:

    Rancid The Graun sticks the SNP bad boot in, shock. They’ve seem to have dropped the great Hampden park tragedy, for today, over half rancid’s Scotland’s possible EU vote and Brexit report today is SNP bad.

    Klassy crew to the last-

    http://archive.is/ELvp5

    Sturgeon was speaking during a visit to London to meet her party’s MPs and the new Labour mayor, Sadiq Khan. The trip was planned before stories emerged about her deputy, Stewart Hosie, who is standing down following revelations of an affair with a journalist, Serena Cowdy.
    Sturgeon said: “The issue with Stewart Hosie is a private matter. Many people from many different walks of life have marriages that break up and those are deeply personal, deeply painful, but ultimately private matters … He’s decided to put his health and his family and his constituency first. It’s a credit to him that he’s taken that decision.”
    Cowdy was reportedly also pursuing a relationship with another SNP MP, Angus MacNeil, and questions have been raised about his expenses claims for overnight hotel stays during that period. Sturgeon said she had seen no evidence to suggest a misuse of parliamentary expenses.
    “Clearly any issues about breaching of expenses rules should be properly investigated. I understand that there have been references made to the parliamentary authorities and it will be for them to decide. But I’ve not seen any evidence of any breach of any rules of parliamentary expense and I think it’s very important to stress that,” she said.
    Asked whether she was concerned that the SNP might no longer be seen as separate from the historical sleaze associated with Westminster politics – given that these revelations follow continuing police investigations into alleged financial impropriety by two former SNP MPs, Michelle Thomson and Natalie McGarry – Sturgeon responded that none of the individuals in question had been “proven to do anything wrong”.
    She said: “Both of them [McGarry and Thomson] have chosen to step aside from the SNP while there are investigations ongoing. That’s the right thing to do.
    “What I’m proud of is that the SNP right now is providing the only effective opposition to the Tories in Westminster. On a whole range of issues it has been the SNP – while Labour is tearing itself apart – that’s been standing up against David Cameron and his government, and that’s what we’ll continue to do.”

    Why rancid thinks their Scotland region’s EU future rests on a Scottish dingdong in Westminster, is pretty clear.

  95. Rev. Stuart Campbell at 1.06

    You’re quite right Stu when I view the footage. I also well remember the reason for the Ranger’s fans anger in 1969. Rangers comprehensively outplayed Celtic all about the park that day but almost every time Celtic went up the park they scored.

    That was big Jock. The important places on a football park are in front of your own goal and in front of your opponent’s goal. Big Jock knew how to win matches. Score goals at one end and save goals at the other. A bit more of that would bring our football back to the exhilarating goalmouth to goalmouth spectacle it used to be and no more of this fannying about in the middle of the park trying to hold onto the ball.

  96. Valerie says:

    Ooh, take a bow, Rev.

    Reporting Shortbread has just used a very similar timeline to show, all told, the stramash was brought under control in 5 mins.

    Archie McPherson saying the yellow jackets were ‘useless’ and traffic cones would have done better. Bit nasty. But then he probably wants to support his team’s narrative.

  97. Hamish100 says:

    re the game.
    How did rangers supporters get flares into the ground and set them off?
    As Hibs scored the winner the regular occurrence of players running off the pitch to be patted by the supporters occurs in the corner where the initial pitch invasion happens. As for the rest hooligans mainly Hibs but Rangers also. Lets hope they are all identified and prosecuted.

    Is Kelly MSP dropping his nonsense over football legislation?

  98. Iain More says:

    OT

    So when does the Chilcot Report get released? Just how much of a whitewash will it be? The Yoons are getting hysterical about it already by the fact they dare not mention it or so it seems to me.

  99. Big Jock says:

    It’s all Hibs fault according to usual phone ins. Not one dares mention up to our knees in fenian blood!

    We don’t like Rangers, the club at least have got that right. We despise them as they shame our country. Thank god they are not in Europe let’s keep it that way.

  100. Mick DIAMOND says:

    This is why rangers arent wanted in england. ” manchester etc.etc.” . They best serve the unionist cause by being left in scotland. Divide and conquer, the ulsterisation of the sweaties.

  101. HandandShrimp says:

    Iain

    I think the word is that Chilcott is going to be damning. Think it is due out in about 6 or 7 weeks.

  102. Dan Huil says:

    @Iain More 6:49pm

    The bbc has already invited Archie MacPherson to do a detailed analysis of the Chilcot Report.

  103. Dan Huil says:

    Catalonia has Barcelona FC; Scotland has Liz the Last’s eleven.

  104. Big Jock says:

    The media can say and believe what they want. But we know the truth! They talk in an echo chamber. They despise us because we won’t conform to Rangers on message.

    Rangers have the media under their thumb. Presenter just said how do we cut this out. Take away the lighter fluid Rangers and the fire won’t erupt.

    It’s been quiet for 4 years. They come back and all hell breaks lose. They just will not see it. No Rangers no riots.

    I seriously worry for us come next season. These are the same morons that attack kids in George Square.

  105. caledonia says:

    Why should hibs get fined for coming on the park
    did motherwell get fined last year
    are killie going to get fined for yesterday
    do all the english teams in the playoffs get fined

    just because its the rangers that the media and papers are having a carry on as they see rangers as some sort of unionist team

  106. call me dave says:

    O/T
    Landmark North Yorkshire fracking vote approved

    https://archive.is/X2Sgh

  107. Big Jock says:

    Tom English sticking it to Rangers at last some balance!He says the statement is a lie.

  108. AhuraMazda says:

    Well, to be fair, you don’t get crowd trouble like that at Muirfield Golf Course. Maybe there’s something to be said for banning women.

    Is it possible those fans who misbehaved on Saturday were showing off because women were there? That was the argument against letting them into the army… maybe they realised encouraging guys to act aggressively and attack people was exactly what the army needed and that’s why they eventually let them in.

    It doesn’t look like there’s much fun in being a “Rangers” fan. I heard they initiated legal proceedings against Sports Direct and Charles Green today… maybe that explains their desire to create a distraction with this nonsense.

    All that matters is that “Rangers” aren’t in Europe making millions. I don’t care what happens to Hibs. That’s the bit that matters most. All those millions, lost, forever, like teardrops in the rain… down the swanny.

  109. Tinto Chiel says:

    Caledonia: Motherwell FC is still to receive full punishment for its fans’ invasion of Fir Park in the game against Rangers last May. This is why the club spent a lot of money on extra stewards and temporary fencing for their last home game against St Johnstone: any further breach would have increased eventual sanctions against the club. There has been a relatively recent tradition of fans coming on to the pitch after the last game with sombreros and beach balls. Daft nonsense, really, but entirely harmless.

    The club will get whacked, eventually, and maybe the silly youths who caused the bother will finally realise their behaviour has consequences.

    Given the frothing of the MSM and some RS journalists, I think Hibs will be heavily punished for their fans’ behaviour. What will be done about the flares, sectarian songs and invasion by Rangers supporters to scrap with Hibs fans? Unless this is dealt with also, the commission will have no credibility.

    It’s a big test for the SFA.

  110. Martin says:

    Rangers say this, Hibs say that, SFA bluster like fools. I thought the Police and Stewards did a first class job. Maybe could have anticipated Hibs fans running on after 114 year wait and being 1-2 down with ten minutes to play. Definately a Stramash in my opinion. I am in my fifties now , but all I thought of when these events unfolded, was being a 14 year old lying on the floor of our bus outside Ibrox as the windows were getting ‘bricked’. At 16 getting head butted on the east terrace at Easter Road which was full of Huns, before the crowd segregation came in. Stepping back as a pomagne bottle was flying right at me and it smashed on the terrace in front of me, one of dozens launched by the blue hoards. Anytime you went to Ibrox you just felt like you were a marked man. Friendly City my arse. Celtic not much better in my opinion.

  111. Luigi says:

    Aye, you can rely on Archie McPherson, for an unbiased view about what really happened on Saturday. He is certainly consistent. 🙂

  112. Jas says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill 1.02

    About that ’69 cup final … from what I remember a big gap appeared in the Rangers end after Celtic’s fourth goal, a sure sign that bottles were being thrown and landing amongst their fellow supporters. Not unusual back then. A lot of kids stood at the front so as to see better. When the bottles hailed down they came on to the track to escape being hit. It may also have triggered an exodus, as at that point in the game the exit gates would still be locked.

  113. Andy-B says:

    Poor wee Rangers FC, let down, however they weren’t let down a few years back when they ran amok trashing and smashing Manchester to pieces after they got soundly beaten in the uefa cup final.

    Still to listen to the unionist press and radio stations broadcasting their wares in Scotland today, you’d have thought Hibs fans had burned Hampden park down with the Queens Eleven (That’s what Tory MSP Murdo Fraser tweeted when Rangers defeated Celtic) still inside. No mention of Rangers fans singing “up to your knees in Fenian blood” nor Rangers fans setting off flares in the ground.

    Here are those poor affronted Rangers fans dismantling Manchester.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HZG4rOuyHg4

    And here are those poor wee hard done by fans taunting independence supports on September 19th 2014.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bdvXA1J8Egc

    The Queen and her established Westminster government must sleep sound at night knowing that her brainwashed supporters in Scotland will do their utmost to thwart Scottish independence.

  114. Effijy says:

    Auld Erchie McPherson is knocking on 80 years.

    Are there no young Unionist coming through.

    I fear that like Hercules, when the pedal bin wore out,
    it took his strength and a few brain cells away with it.
    Wooosh! By the way!

  115. Clydebuilt says:

    By the lack of police around the Hibs end you might wonder ….did they do it on purpose knowing the fans would get past the stewards….. Just look at what side of the debate is bigging this up….. Or was it just lazy incompetence

  116. Does anyone know if Judy Murray ran on to the pitch?

    Have The Rangers players come out of the changing room yet?

    Never a fan of Kenny Miller(68 caps 18 goals for SCO) but he seems to be one of the few in all this to have acted honourably.

  117. Albaman says:

    All I can say,
    I’m glad I’m a rugby fan !.

  118. call me dave says:

    Davidson refuses to rule out becoming an MP – or UK Tory leader or Ranger’s manager… that last one’s not true!

    https://archive.is/TYfsk

  119. Fireproofjim says:

    In all the fuss it seems to have been forgotten that it was a great game, played in a good spirit by both teams who were committed to open attacking football.
    One of the best games of the season.
    Pity about the stramash at full time but no blood was spilt, at least nobody’s knees were wet, as far as I could see.

  120. Semus Hamilton says:

    Was there a fitba match? Imagine that. Helluva lot of weans talk eh?

  121. @Effijy

    unless i am missing the point could you possibly have meant Samson.

  122. Thepnr says:

    The main thing I take from this article is not “who done what when”. No, it is an attempt to present a realistic account of what actually took place on Saturday after the cup final.

    Unlike the hysterical media reporting. I’ve read comments on here about Sky News scrolling headlines describing it as Like WW11 had started, players knocked unconcious and lying in the centre circle, police taking more than 10 mins to bring the mounted police in.

    All of which is complete nonsense. This is where I fail to understand the more rapid reporting whose aim is to fan the flames and which will result in prolonged bad feelings between supporters of those clubs involved. Doing this just invites further trouble down the line, what can we epect next time Rangers and Hibs meet in competition?

    I doubt we can expect anything good.

    The papers need to shut up now and leave it in the hands of the police to identify trouble makers then get them into the courts, the SFA has to conduct this investigation by garnering ALL the evidence and facts available. Then meting out whatever punishment is deemed necessary based on the evidence and severity of any offence the club is found guilty of.

    Next the SFA and the clubs need to take a long hard look at themselves and work together to eradicate this scourge from Scotlands most popular spectator sport before very few spectators remain. I guess a serious look at OBFA as it stands, its purpose and how it could be improved could be a start.

    A good long hard look by all interested parties and NO fudges.

  123. Simon Curran says:

    Saturday was a shame after an exciting cup final with two attack minded teams. Both sets of fans are to blame and if it is found that players were assaulted then that is a very serious issue and I trust the courts will not be lenient. Enthusiasm is one thing, violence is another and is unacceptable. As a Rangers fan the statements from the club are embarrassing and the naming and shaming of individuals is irresponsible.On a wider issue it is a myth that all Rangers fans are died in the wool Unionists and it would be interesting if those who support independence could actually find a way to work together to challenge and persuade others to drop their loyalty to an updated union. I accept that there is a core of knuckledraggers that may be underpersuadable even if the Queen herself were to support independence.

  124. Provost Sludden says:

    I see auld Starchie Macpherson has been saying that they may as well have used traffic cones instead of the stewards.

    I thought the same about his commentating.

  125. Effijy says:

    Scot Finlayson says:

    23 May, 2016 at 9:03 pm

    @Effijy

    unless i am missing the point could you possibly have meant Samson.

    A real case of foot in mouth, What a belter.
    Why, Why, Why, Delilah . lol

  126. KenC says:

    @Simon Curran, 10:00 pm.

    Thanks Simon, well said. There are a lot of great fans out there supporting Rangers.

    I spent a fabulous night with a group of them after the 1992 Euros in Sweden. They weren’t too happy at a Dundonian beating them at pool, but the worst I got was a bear hug from a mountain of a guy!

    I have a number of Rangers supporting friends in Dundee who have been appalled by past events involving their team’s supporters.

    They feel no affiliation with them, it is all about the team.

    The only one I’ve heard from since the final is more concerned about Ranger’s performance and their inability to see out the 90 minutes against a team that looked beaten.

    He accepts Hibs deserved to win and certainly won’t be signing any petitions which may deprive of it.

  127. Petra says:

    @ Thepnr says at 9:45 pm …. ”The papers need to shut up now and leave it in the hands of the police to identify trouble makers then get them into the courts, the SFA has to conduct this investigation by garnering ALL the evidence and facts available. Then meting out whatever punishment is deemed necessary based on the evidence and severity of any offence the club is found guilty of. Next the SFA and the clubs need to take a long hard look at themselves and work together to eradicate this scourge from Scotland’s most popular spectator sport before very few spectators remain. I guess a serious look at OBFA as it stands, its purpose and how it could be improved could be a start. A good long hard look by all interested parties and NO fudges.”

    Spot on Thepnr.

    …………………………………………………………………………………..

    O/T

    And from one Stramash to another. (Posted in full in case it’s blocked).

    George Kerevan …. The National: ‘Nato leaders are meeting to discuss the start of the Second Libyan War’.

    ”OUR next war starts officially on July 8. On that date, the heads of all the Nato countries meet in Warsaw National Stadium.

    Top of the agenda is rubber-stamping a Nato-led assault on what is left of Libya. Preparations have already begun with British, French and US Special Forces infiltrated and active on the ground against the Libyan branch of Daesh.

    Prospect: as big a Western debacle as we have seen before in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.

    Flashback to 2011 and the overthrow of mad dictator Muammar Gaddafi, the son of a local goat-herder who originally led a military coup against pro-Western King Idris back in 1969. For the record, Libya has a population not much larger than Scotland’s but is 22 times bigger. It also has oodles of oil and gas, which is its attraction to the West.

    Before he went bonkers, Gaddafi and his fellow army officers represented a secular, anti-imperialist, pan-Arab nationalism, modelled on the Egypt of Gammal Nasser. But the string of post-colonial regimes spawned in the Nasserist era succumbed to corruption, authoritarianism, crony-capitalism, and (with the fall of Communism) the return of Western influence by the back door. The latter offered – in return for access to all that lovely oil – help against the Muslim Brotherhood, a new Islamic social movement inheriting Arab resistance to imperialism after the degeneration of secular Nasserism. The Muslim Brotherhood was joined by more violent Islamist movements, including al-Qaeda and Daesh.

    Gaddafi’s unique 42-year regime spanned this long historic cycle. Libya’s tiny population was easy to intimidate or buy off using the proceeds of oil sales, leaving Gaddafi to do his own thing. The oil industry was theoretically “nationalised” but in truth Gaddafi was always happy to deals with Western oil companies to extract the black gold. Indeed, he proved very adept at playing US and European oil companies against each other the better to fund his regime and his family’s increasingly extravagant lifestyle. The West seemed happy with this arrangement because Gaddafi’s erratic, egomaniac politics were more of a threat to anti-Western regimes in North Africa and the Middle East than anywhere else. Only after the 1988 Lockerbie bombing did an embarrassed West finally decide it needed to rein in Libya by applying economic sanctions that brought the country to the edge of bankruptcy.

    In the wake of 9/11, and under threat from the new Islamist upsurge himself, Gaddafi returned to the Western fold, offering oil and a (ruthless) hand against al-Qaeda if sanctions were lifted. Britain’s then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, was only too happy to “bring Libya in from the cold”. Gaddafi thought he was safe but soon discovered (like many before him) that the Western powers never honour a deal with the Arabs. When in February 2011, at long last, the long-suffering people of Libya rose in rebellion against the hated Gaddafi family dictatorship, the West pulled the plug. By October, Gaddafi was dead. Undoubtedly, the Western powers figured that dumping Gaddafi would open the path to a pliant pro-Western regime and easier access to all that oil and gas.

    To speed Gaddafi on his way to Hades, Nato and assorted pro-Western Arab states intervened in the Libyan uprising with an unprecedented avalanche of air strikes. Nato admits to flying an extraordinary 26,500 individual sorties against targets in Libya in 2011. Yet there have been only 3,933 Allied (non-Russian) air strikes in Syria against Daesh forces since bombing began in August 2014. In Iraq, there have been 8,438 Allied air attacks on Daesh units. So in Syria and Iraq combined, US and Nato forces have flown less than a third of the air strikes they did against the Gaddafi regime.

    The result of the horrendous Nato bombing of Libya was effectively to destroy the country’s entire infrastructure – oil accepted, of course. Why this ridiculous overkill? Partly, it was at the behest of the Saudi-led Arab League which wanted revenge on the maverick Gaddafi. Partly, it was Nato and the US showing it could still flex military might after the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Partly it was the petty vanity of Britain’s David Cameron and France’s Nicholas Sarkozy, who wanted to pretend to be a reincarnation of Mrs Thatcher. And it was the usual Western disdain for Arab lives.

    Having destroyed the country, the Western powers simply walked away leaving Libya to descend into chaos. This dysfunctional country is now split into three warring zones. In the east, in Benghazi, there is the anti-Islamist House of Representatives, which is backed by neighbouring Egypt. HoR has some democratic legitimacy and is supported (after a fashion) by the remnants of the Libyan National Army led by ambitious General Khalifa Haftar. His is the strongest indigenous military force. Meanwhile, the western part of Libya, centred on Tripoli, remains in the hands of a variety of Islamist militias. In the middle: Daesh.

    Two factors have renewed Western concern over Libya. The first is the flow of refugees and economic migrants using the country as a route into Europe. After the deal brokered between the EU and Turkey to return refugees to Turkish camps, chaotic Libya is now the obvious point of departure for those seeking to get to Europe. The UN reckons there are at least 100,000 would-be migrants waiting in their chance in Libya.

    How can the EU broker a deal with Libya to send back any refugees, if there is no proper Libyan government? Answer: create a puppet government, sign a deal with them, then send in Nato military assets to enforce the deal. Last month, such a puppet government was delivered to Tripoli by boat (reportedly Saudi) and now resides in a heavily fortified naval base in Tripoli. This so-called Government of National Accord (GNA) is led by Faiez Serraj, whose father was a minister under the old pre-Gaddafi monarchy. The GNA is recognised by none of the other factions in Libya including strongman General Hafter. It remains surrounded not just by hostile Islamist militias in Tripoli but increasingly by Daesh. Daesh has deliberately opened a second front in Libya to break out of its encirclement in Syria-Iraq. It has anything between 4,000 and 6,000 fighters in Libya, based on Gaddafi’s old stronghold of Sirte. Despite ceding ground recently to General Hafter’s National Army, Libyan Daesh last week inflicted heavy casualties on militia units protecting Serraj’s puppet GNA.

    At Nato’s July summit, the decision will be taken to blockade Libya’s 2,000-kilometre coast, to turn back refugees and isolate Daesh. Britain has already deployed a spy ship (HMS Enterprise) to the area and US drones are flying daily across Libya from the Italian island of Pantelleria. Various reputable media sources reveal there are already British, American, French and Italian Special Forces on the ground directing militia operations against Daesh. Come July expect renewed airstrikes targeting Daesh.

    The UK has publicly offered to send 1,000 military advisors to train a new Libyan army loyal to the wobbly Serraj government. As these British personnel would be based in easy striking distance of Daesh suicide bombers, any notion they would be non-combatants is risible. The Second Libyan War has already begun. Where it will end is anybody’s guess.”

    http://www.thenational.scot/comment/george-kerevan-nato-leaders-are-meeting-to-discuss-the-start-of-the-second-libyan-war.17861

  128. Gary45% says:

    Alan Stubbs missed a chance when getting interviewed in saying the old sausage.
    “The Crowd Are On The Pitch, They Think Its All Over, It is Now”
    Not sure the “Innocent”??? blue noses or Empire TV Scotch-shire would have been too happy.

  129. Petra says:

    Weegingerdug: ‘The sightlines of the prams.’

    ”So here we are, a month out from the Tory Leadership Referendum with its potential side effect of taking the UK out of the EU, there’s the possibility of legal action against the Conservatives over driving a coach, literally, through election expenses laws which could result in the government losing its majority, there’s the distant rumbling of the Chilcot Report which should, if there’s any justice, see Tony Blair and Jack Straw named and shamed for taking the country into an illegal war. There is no shortage of news stories which ought to boil the blood of anyone who retains a couple of functioning neurones, and yet if you look at the papers, the most important events today are who Stewart Hosie has been shagging, a fitba match that took place two days ago, and the competition between George Osborne and Boris Johnson about who can tell the scariest story. The only responses from a sane person are respectively, don’t care, don’t care, and get a bloody grip. No wonder our media is going down the toilet…….

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/the-sightlines-of-the-prams/

    PS Nana I see that you’ve been in hospital. I’m presuming it has something to do with you having arthritis? Whatever the case I’m sending you all my best wishes (and a big hug) for a full and speedy recovery: And fairly missing your input on here x

  130. gary mckay says:

    Was there the same outcry by Rangers when one of their supporters ran onto the pitch at Ibrox and assaulted the Hibs full back Kevin McKee in 1984? No there was not, I very doubt much that he was even banned from the stadium for 1 game.

  131. Liz g says:

    Like Valerie further up the comments
    I know nothing about football and care even less.
    But just to set the record straight about that commentators, comments about the stewards,which I do know about and care deeply.
    They are not there to take on out of control fans,
    (Believe me they are not paid enough)
    They have no actual powers and are subject to arrest themselves if they put their hands on anyone.
    Their function is really only to direct the public and or get help should anyone require it,this makes sense as a qualified police officer isn’t required to do that.
    Quite a lot of them are students who are trying to earn some extra cash.
    As am sure most of the parent’s of these kid’s would agree, my stance, in that situation is stand back !et them get on with it and leave it to the police who are trained and have the powers to act,(as they so clearly and decisively did)in this instance.
    The ignorant statements of that commentator just demonstrates once more how dire the quality of our so called reporters actually is.

  132. Jas at 8pm

    Nothing more worrying than the sound of a McEwans Pale Ale pint bottle whistling down from behind you, as often as not filled with pish.
    I was at a Celtic/St Mirren Cup semi final at Ibrox at which the Celtic fans watching their team behind with a few minutes to go tried to get the match abandoned by creating an invasion of the park by throwing bottles down from the back of the terracing.

    Lets solve all the problems by abolishing the OB legislation and bringing alcohol back into the stadiums.

  133. Valerie says:

    @Petra

    Scary stuff on Libya, also quite timely listening to Kenny McAskill, he is one brave man calling out US and UK for using Scotland as a patsy.

    Im currently reading William Blum, Americas Deadliest Export Democracy.

    I have to keep stopping because it’s so overwhelming, just how America operates.

    Blum is a former State dept employee who left when he saw how Vietnam was being conducted. He even quotes Craig Murray on torture, the Bush/Blair role in Libya, as well as all the South Americas countries.

    Putting in cash, people, funding terrorists or crazies that want civil war, all in the name of opposing socialism, or grabbing resources via putting corporate s in.

    I would recommend it as fairly easy to read, if you have felt on the periphery of American foreign policy. An awful lot becomes clear.

    It will convince you even more, about being out of this disgusting UK union.

  134. Big Jock says:

    Simon 10pm.

    We would love to try and persuade. But Rangers are a unionist organisation,like the Orange Lodge. The fans take their lead from the Directors. It’s not a normal club with a few wayward fans. It’s a wayward insular,antiquated club with some outright maniacs attached to it.

    You don’t change that kind of institution. It’s dyed in the wool. Instead you just walk away. No fans = no Club= no bigotry.

    I don’t understand why it’s so hard to walk away from something that shames,abhors and offends you. My club Thistle become Brit flag waiving zealots and it’s by by end of. The club itself waive the Union flags not just the supporters remember!

  135. Ruby says:

    Why was it necessary for the police to stop the rival fans getting stuck into to one another?

    They should have just left them all to have a massive punch up!

    The way it turned out the fans would probably just go home and punch the shit out of their wives. It would have been better if they could have gotten rid of all the anger & pent up rage on the Hampden pitch and it would have been very entertaining to watch even more entertaining in my opinion than watching football!

  136. Thepnr says:

    @Liz

    That commentator Liz was Scottish Footballs own Proud Scot but Archie McPherson. Apparently he stole the show at a Better Together rally with Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling in Dundee a month before the referendum according to the Herald.

    If you enjoy self flagulation you can watch it here, I haven’t it would be more than I could bear:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDXAvZ8NIX0

    More disturbing to me is that just 3 months he appeared at a “Scotland In Union” event in Glasgow under the dramatic heading:

    “Scotland Now: A Warning to the World”

    A full house turned out to see Professor Tom Gallagher and broadcaster Archie MacPherson discuss the threat of Scottish nationalism at the latest Scotland in Union event in Glasgow.

    Chaired by Professor Jill Stephenson, the event saw the former football commentator quiz Professor Gallagher on his new book Scotland Now: A Warning to the World before taking questions from our supporters.

    Among the audience at the Glasgow Art Club was former Chancellor and Better Together Leader Alistair Darling and his wife Margaret.

    https://archive.is/JAuVH

    Liz, Archie is the traffic cone, drive around them or ignore them.

  137. Stoker says:

    Swore i’d never go btl again but can’t resist this:

    First of all, good coverage Rev but can i add –

    (1): Smoke bombs (orange) = illegal!
    (2): Filthy sectarian singing (of the orange variety) = illegal!
    (3): Hampden security (big bucks – including police) = where?
    (4): Certain Hibs fans = You killed a perfect day!
    (5): BUM = Get tae fuck with yer predictable shite, yer club shouldn’t even be in existence, CHEATS!
    (6): What about certain NI elements present who also attended ‘Freedom Square’ on the 19/09/14? One of the BUM rags has even got a picture of one of the fat huns getting his head kicked-in, i take it there will be no inquiry as to why those scumbags are allowed to frequent our shores? NAH, didn’t think so!

    Congrats HIBS!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPXCNwBu_t8

  138. Grouse Beater says:

    Time for political parity and equality in the media: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-77z

  139. Stoker says:

    OOooops, wrong link above:
    Sevco 2 Hibernian 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INW-cZSg5xs

  140. Cadogan Enright says:

    We are served by intellectual heros

    From GA Ponsonby http://indyref2.scot/the-twisting-and-turning-of-bbc-scotland#comment-9641

    We are lucky to have people like GA and the Rev

    http://indyref2.scot/the-twisting-and-turning-of-bbc-scotland#comment-9641

  141. ScottishPsyche says:

    O/T

    LabourEoin is saying a big story will break tomorrow on the Tory Election fraud. Anyone heard anything?

    Also,I wonder if Ruth Davidson has anything to worry about with regard to this? There were reports of activists coming up from England to campaign for her.

  142. heedtracker says:

    Scotland just got a mention there on another deadly waffly BBC 2 Newsnight Brexit debate, right at end, one audience dude says he’s swayed from leave to remain ” and dont forget the Scotland question, they might leave if its Brexit.” Not bad for a hour of our chums in the south deciding more stuff for us.

  143. Thepnr says:

    @Stoker

    Welcome back. I’m glad you chose to resist not posting again.

  144. Liz g says:

    Thepnr 11.18
    Should have took you’re advice and not watched….
    But now I have honesty compels me to tell you you’re wrong,
    He is not the traffic cone you drive around but rather the sleeping police man you need to drive over.
    Am away for either a shower or a dram.

  145. Mark says:

    Dear Wings – love this website. Im doing a #sp16 project for uni, if anyone would mind taking 5 mins to fill in a survey? https://goo.gl/forms/PyATWyK05y

    It would help me SO much

  146. Thepnr says:

    @Liz g

    Well you got me curious and I had to watch it. Glad I did, tells you what we are up against.

    Pensions! the lying bastards, we will know better next time how to deal with that. If Archie assumed we were going back in the box he couldn’t have been more wrong.

    Once we win the battle of the truth then it’s all over.

  147. Petra says:

    I totally agree with Craig Murray. The ‘sectarian’ situation will never change in Scotland until we deal with ‘faith’ schools and segregated education. Scotland is dealing, rather not dealing, with a Protestant, Catholic divide. As we become a more multi-cultural country will we find that the parents of other ‘faiths’ will demand that their children attend their particular faith school too creating even more divisions and stoking up even greater trouble for us all in the future? Not to mention the financial cost for the Scottish tax-payer.

    We all know that bigoted beliefs are often established on mammy and / or daddy’s knee. Children playing and working together from day one at Primary school (or nursery), making friends with each other, may come to see that their parents philosophy is not one that they want to perpetuate. Religious bigotry wont be eradicated overnight but this would hopefully be a starting point for a progressive Scottish Government to consider.

    Additionally putting an end to ‘celebrations’ of a battle that took place in Ireland over 300 years ago would be another. What next Sunni and Shia marches around Scotland ‘celebrating’ their battles or numerous terrorist attacks on each other?

    This latter statement might come across as being ridiculous or extreme however faith schools and sectarian marches have set a precedent in Scotland that others could use by playing the ‘discrimination’ card.

    ………………………………………………

    Craig Murray: ‘Time to End Religious Apartheid in Scotland – and England.’

    ”In all the wringing of hands about the violence at the end of the Hibs/Rangers Scottish cup final, there is a reluctance to tackle the root of the question…..

    But sensible as the ban is, it does nothing to tackle the cause of sectarian hatred. The greatest cause is segregated education. It is difficult to hate people when you grow up amongst them, share your earliest friendships and experiences with them, and learn together……

    I find the fact that the state routinely segregates Catholic and Protestant children in school, as the norm in much of Scotland, deeply shocking. The lack of intellectual honesty in facing up to the open consequences is pathetic…..

    The Catholic / Protestant divide is particularly acute in Scotland, but England has precisely the same problem with faith schools. If you filter out the substantial degree of Islamophobia in many reports, it is still plain that there is a problem with “Islamic” schools which teach values which have no place in modern education…..

    Thanks to Tony Blair, the leader who believes God wanted him to start war in Iraq, England has actually seen a growth in state schools which are a strong feature of the neo-cons’ “Academy system”. This has led to state schools being run by all shades of religious nutter including creationists…..

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/05/time-end-religious-apartheid-scotland-england/

  148. Chris says:

    Sent the link to you on twitter but spotted it on here.

    Hibs player Liam Henderson (99% sure) can be seen dancing around at 4m 05 secs on the video before someone wearing a suit in the technical area clearly has a kick out at him which Henderson jumps over.

    Why would a Rangers fan in a suit already be at the technical area? Club official?

  149. Liz g says:

    Thepnr @12.15
    You’re absolutely correct,I don’t think people are stupid just not well informed.
    Enter us Winger’s.
    And as soon as they are brought up to speed!!!!
    We’re halfway there (you are going to stick that song on off topic now aren’t you)and we’re not giving up.
    …….Sorry the dram won…..

  150. Hobbit says:

    I’ll stick to following Scottish rugby …

  151. geeo says:

    I am going to attempt something unusual here, especially for me.
    But first, this. ..

    That was a very exciting cup final and BOTH teams should be praised highly for a cracking match. Goals, drama, excitement, what’s not to like ?

    Now for the unusual bit.

    I was really concerned when the hibs fans came on the pitch, and even more so when they went over to goad the ‘rangers’ fans.

    Now, i was watching the game with my 3 best pals a couple of hours into a 16 hour whisky tasting session involving 47 bottles of varied malts, 2 ‘rangers’ fans, one of them a right bluenose, but what can you do..

    He was going mental at the “f**king idiots on the park. I obviously thought he meant the Hibs fans, but turns out he meant the ‘rangers’ fans!!

    I actually said that i was a bit impressed by the way the vast majority of their fans did not react to the events generated by the hibs fans, and deserved credit for that, (boy did that hurt..lol) yet his reaction remained furious at his fellow fans for putting his clubs name in the frame and allowing the poor behaviour of the element within the hibs support intent on causing trouble on the pitch.

    Maybe a small point, but in my opinion, a fair one. Condemn the arseholes on all side, but we should credit fans who behaved and did not disrespect the occassion.

    That of course, would not feed the media agenda though.

  152. AhuraMazda says:

    “It is difficult to hate people when you grow up amongst them, share your earliest friendships and experiences with them, and learn together……”

    If he really feels that way about it, why not suggest a ban non-faith schools and have everyone go to a Catholic schools?

    Sounds like a ridiculous proposition eh?

    Yet, with 266 out of 270 faith schools being Catholic, it’s amazing how cavalier and sacrificial we are all willing to be when it comes to the beliefs and lives of others.

    It’s actually worse than even that though. Because we all know the problem we call sectarianism is really a problem of protestant bigotry and intolerance. We don’t have exact numbers, we never do with these things, but it looks like about 90% of it is in that direction.

    I’ve never once had to wait in traffic to allow a republican band to pass — although I have heard and don’t deny that they exist. I’ve probably had to wait for Orange Walks to pass 100 times.

    The anti-catholic rhetoric and violence, the sense of superiority and entitlement, Orange Walks, and heinous songs, that stuff isn’t learned in Catholic schools. We can all agree on that.

    The suggestion that we might solve those problems by closing down faith schools is morally the equivalent of suggesting we close down synagogues as a way of addressing anti-semitism.

    It strikes me as a cowardly thing to suggest, more than anything else though.

    Craig Murray should know better.

  153. Petra says:

    @ Cadogan Enright says at 11:34 pm …. ”We are served by intellectual heros. We are lucky to have people like GA and the Rev.” From GA Ponsonby http://indyref2.scot/the-twisting-and-turning-of-bbc-scotland#comment-9641

    We are indeed Cadogan. Ponsonby is brilliant. Craig Murray, Professor John Robertson and of course Stu. All sticking their necks out to combat the propaganda machine. What would we do without them?

    …………………………………………

    @ Valerie says at 11:11 pm …. ”Petra …. Scary stuff on Libya, also quite timely listening to Kenny McAskill, he is one brave man calling out US and UK for using Scotland as a patsy. Im currently reading William Blum, Americas Deadliest Export Democracy. I have to keep stopping because it’s so overwhelming, just how America operates. Blum is a former State dept employee who left when he saw how Vietnam was being conducted. He even quotes Craig Murray on torture, the Bush/Blair role in Libya, as well as all the South Americas countries. Putting in cash, people, funding terrorists or crazies that want civil war, all in the name of opposing socialism, or grabbing resources via putting corporate s in. I would recommend it as fairly easy to read, if you have felt on the periphery of American foreign policy. An awful lot becomes clear. It will convince you even more, about being out of this disgusting UK union.”

    Another book to buy … and then finding the time to read them! So many people trying to get the Truth across Valerie. Some of them behind bars now or ‘exterminated’. Scary stuff right enough.

    Phillip Marshall and children: The ‘murder / suicide’ version.

    http://topinfopost.com/2013/10/16/911-conspiracy-author-phillip-marshall-his-2-kids-found-dead-in-california

    And the other:

    http://sputniknews.com/voiceofrussia/news/2014_01_27/CIA-pilot-Philip-Marshall-was-killed-in-a-black-op-Wayne-Madsen-3480/

    ‘Suspicious Deaths of Those Who Knew Too Much Under Bush`s Watch.’

    http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=616455

    And google ‘Scientists murdered’. Dying ‘prematurely’ and by the score.

  154. Robert Peffers says:

    @Petra says: 24 May, 2016 at 12:22 am:

    ” … As we become a more multi-cultural country will we find that the parents of other ‘faiths’ will demand that their children attend their particular faith school too creating even more divisions and stoking up even greater trouble for us all in the future? Not to mention the financial cost for the Scottish tax-payer”

    The majority of other faiths already have faith Schools and, BTW, all state schools, including the RC ones cannot legally refuse to enrol any child on the grounds of religion and, in the case of RC schools, it has been that way since the parish schools system ended and became the state system.

    Not only that but originally the RC schools were entirely built and funded by the RC church and one condition of them joining the state system was that they handed over the schools, teachers and equipment lock stock and barrel to the state.

    Not one penny has ever been used to compensate them. The reason for these Catholic schools in the first place was twofold. The discrimination against the Catholics was violent and horrendous and many of the old parish schools point blank refused to educate RC children.

    Historically, especially in the West Of Scotland, the company villages that sprung up with the Industrial Revolution were cynically built to segregate the workers.

    The mill, mine and foundry owners used divide and conquer tactics.

    On one side of the works the Scots Protestants had nicer stone built houses while the RC Irish immigrants had roughly built hovels. Remember too that the mine, mill & foundry owners owned the local pubs and the company stores.

    They made the immigrants settle for lower wages and higher prices and that angered the Scots who blamed the Irish workers instead of blaming the company owners. Pitched battles were common.

    To this day you will still find nearby towns & villages in the West of Scotland with majority Catholic & Protestant councils respectively.

    I had no religion and attended whatever school was closer to home or was significantly a better school. There is absolutely no doubt that when I was attending school that the so called Non-Dom schools were at least 99.99% Protestant. They were in fact referred to as Proddy Schools.

    However, the law was that no school, Catholic or Protestant, could refuse to accept all religions and that religious teaching classes remained optional.

  155. liz Gray says:

    Bigotry and intolerance is NOT the exclusive ideology of the “Non Dom…aka…Non Catholic school’s”
    It may be low key in R.C.schools but it is there.
    To close a place of worship cannot be similar to the integration of tax pay’er funded education.
    That is a false dichotomy.
    Integrate the education system,which is after all supposed to be about learning and the sense of othering disappears within a generation.
    All the weans we are talking about have the same challenges and the same outlook,there is no sane reason to divide them.
    No sane reason…but maybe a political one?

  156. Stoker says:

    @ Thepnr (11:43pm)

    Sorry for late response ‘A’, been catching up on things in O/T.
    Aff tae ma pit noo, awe the best!
    😉

  157. Joannie says:

    Catholic schools already accept non-Catholic pupils and employ non-Catholic staff, so to a certain extent they are already integrated. This obsession with closing Catholic schools as a means to end sectarianism strikes me as sectarian in itself.

  158. schrodingers cat says:

    murray’s right

    singing about being “up to ones knees in fienian blood” 3 point deduction.

    faith schools, one 45 min period a week on RE teaching about various religions standardised in all schools. anything extra done outside school time and funded by themselves (not you and I), not the state.
    no more prayers, bowing or scraping to any sky faery, at assembly or any other time

    no more tricola or union jacks flown on publick buildings

    no more flags of terrorist flags at public events

    orange walks banned, funding withdrawn, policing costs encurred. if they want to hire a park to march around in, they can

    public disorders by clubs to be fined and the costs to go to the councils (ie you and me) who presently pick up the bill for the extra policing costs.

    hullo hullo, rangers are back….opposition teams to leave the field if sectarian songs sung…the other teams to force the issue, lets see the sfa fine st johnstone for leaving the field and refusing to take part in a sectarian hate fest. the opposition supporters can also leave the stadium too. they can also force the sfa to act.

  159. schrodingers cat says:

    Joannie

    no one is saying close faith schools, we fund all schools to teach all subjects and to teach a standard non dom, religious education, was one period a week in the 70s.

    any other religious teaching to take place outside normal school hours and not funded by the tax payer who is presently forced to pay for children to be taught how to pray to some sky faery.

  160. Tam Jardine says:

    Thanks Stu- excellent summary. I’ve said all I have to say about the game so I will leave it at that.

    I do have one slightly off topic suggestion and I wonder if there might be a few posters or lurkers who may be interested.

    Stu has been carrying this site on his shoulders for so long- maybe we can offer a wee bit help. My suggestion for those of us who are regular posters and those who just post the odd comment now and then; and also those who just dip in from time to time is that perhaps the time has come to help.

    There is a wee bit of focus lost by us all- understandable with the politics of the election and the fall out. This is a Scottish Independence website. June 2016 could be a key month in the campaign for Scottish Independence and yet the EU ref feels a flat up here (as it will be decided down there, by and large).

    It is time for folk to take a wander out of their comfort zones and put something together. It may be a personal insight or your own case for indy or your thoughts on the EU. There is more than enough talent in here to take us past the tipping point.

    For myself I confess I have all kinds of reasons why I have never submitted anything and they are all just shite. So I set this challenge for a kind of Scotland over Wings in June. Lets give the Rev some help and re-energise our movement- get the fire back. Focus on what matters and take the fight to our enemies.

    Any takers? (ps – maybe not posting this message at 1.54am is ideal so I might punt it the morn too)

  161. Petra says:

    @ Robert Peffers says at 1:28 am …. ”The majority of other faiths already have faith Schools …..

    Eh? Have you any idea how many people practising a multitude of different faiths (sects of faiths) are living in Scotland now, in different areas of Scotland: More so in England?

    ”And, BTW, all state schools, including the RC ones cannot legally refuse to enrol any child on the grounds of religion and, in the case of RC schools, it has been that way since the parish schools system ended and became the state system.”

    We all know that Robert however it’s NOT about people being excluded from particular schools (although many Protestant teachers are excluded from teaching in RC schools), not being allowed to enrol their children, it’s about people NOT wanting their children to attend the schools we have on offer in Scotland. Wanting their ‘own faith’ school. Take a gander down south not back in time.

    We don’t need a history lesson on this Robert. We all know about segregation and divide and conquer techniques. We’re all extremely conversant with the hellish history of Roman Catholics in Ireland and additionally how they were treated when they came here. And we’re all well aware of the current sectarian problem. However the situation is changing rapidly in Scotland and we should all be keeping our eye on the ball.

  162. AhuraMazda says:

    liz Gray, I strongly disagree with everything you said. Actually, I’ll go further, I think your views are dangerous.

    “Bigotry and intolerance is NOT the exclusive ideology of the “Non Dom…aka…Non Catholic school’s”

    Nobody said it was exclusive. Assuming you know how to read and you know that 90% isn’t 100%, I am left wondering if you are on drugs or something. Please engage your brain.

    “To close a place of worship cannot be similar to the integration of tax pay’er funded education.”

    Is this about taxation or creating a fairer world? You do understand that those little catholic kids would be entitled to an education regardless and that there’s no reason to assume it would cost any less if they went to a non-faith school?

    I’m starting to have doubts about you, liz, grave doubts, I might as well say that now. But let’s continue;

    “Integrate the education system,which is after all supposed to be about learning and the sense of othering disappears within a generation.”

    Is that your final solution to the problem? Just “integrate” them. Have you considered asking the Roman Catholic community what they want? You could always nuke them, that would solve the “othering” problem you mention, I mean, if we are going to be arbitrary about it…

    Scotland worries me at times, it really does. The best arguments I have ever heard for Catholic education come from the lips of those who are opposed to it; that’s true on about 5 different levels. Honestly, it’s as if you are blind to the most basic principles of fairness, never mind the vagaries of stringing a minimally coherent argument together.

  163. Liz g says:

    Joannie @1.45
    Are you kidding me.
    Have you…..?????
    Forget that cause I don’t know you.
    I sat in class and heard “We” when talkin about the football.
    Have heard about the”MURDER”of innocents during a Biology class.
    Have also received the sage advice that tampon use was dangerously putting you’re virginity in doubt….
    This “advice” was given during the only fact of life talk we ever had, which was very much too little TOO late,and with hindsight was only”just” meeting national requirements.
    As for the old sense of grievance every problem with a bus driver(and there were many)was automatically reiterated as they hate us cause we are obviously Catholic…..let’s be brave about it.

  164. AhuraMazda says:

    Joannie: “This obsession with closing Catholic schools as a means to end sectarianism strikes me as sectarian in itself.”

    Isn’t it great though, catholics get persecuted so you deal with it by destroying their faith. There’s a dark logic to it.

    It’s sort of like the Romans feeling bad about feeding Christians to lions and someone suggesting a solution might be had if we turn them into heathens first.

  165. Liz g says:

    OH FFS somebody stop me
    There is no such thing as a little Catholic Kid you fool.
    There is only the child of Catholic Parents.
    AKA….the Catholic with a small c… otherwise any Religion
    And if I have cause to give you concern….well…em…
    Such is Life!!!

  166. AhuraMazda says:

    “There is no such thing as a little Catholic Kid you fool.”

    I was right, your views are dangerous.

    A relative of mine is 8 years old, she just went through her communion, it seems to have meant a lot to her and her parents — would you be willing to tell her she isn’t Catholic?

    The bonkers continues…

  167. Liz g says:

    Ahh. can I go off topic for a bit…it’s late … indulge me
    Wee lassie’s…me …my pals…my daughter’s… their pals and Funnily enough their teachers!!!!!
    It’s Really All About The Dress
    Some may say it’s not but they would be Lying.
    No 7/8 year old has any concept of scriptures.
    …………..Thepnr…..
    Will ye no put up “halfway there”on off topic,but rather MJ…”I’m Bad”
    Seems more fitting somehow

  168. Liz g says:

    As for the wee Lady.
    Aye she’s no Catholic.
    But she’s Halfway there and livin on a prayer.

  169. Liz g says:

    Just for the avoidance of doubt and to be pedantic.
    The wee Lady that has just had her communion,has not gone through her Confirmation.
    As anyone with the minimum knowledge of Catholicism will know you are NOT Catholic until you have been Confirmed a Catholic
    The little girl herself should know/have been taught this.
    See how much of this stuff she will tell you…and then ask her to tell you about her dress!!
    Will you be honest enough to say which subject she knew more about?

  170. Dave McLeod says:

    That’s all well and fair enough but from an event management perspective and measured against standards set at major world sports events (rugby, football, cricket world cups) the fact remains you cannot allow athletes to be put in that situation where fans can physically touch them on the field of play.

    Scotland isn’t above or separate from that standard and if you ignore that then you further the embarrassment for the SFA. I don’t particularly care whether it was Rangers, Hibs, Glasgow Warriors or the Scotland cricket team, the same principle stands – fans buy a ticket for a seat at the venue and sign up to the terms and conditions on that ticket.

    You cannot enter the field of play at anytime and you most certainly cannot rough up, barge, push or physically intimidate the athletes, 114 year wait for a trophy or not. In this day and age the safety of all athletes, match officials and non-football working professionals is the baseline at a modern sports venue.

    Congratulations to Hibernian for breaking their long run without winning the competition, but sadly, by any event management standard, they contributed, along with other stakeholders (SFA, venue, Police Scotland, private security firm) to a failed security plan.

    Picking that failed plan apart and working toward a more robust and thorough one for future reference is the best outcome for all. And I note Police Scotland’s reference to clubs reducing their budget for security and policing, somewhat in their defence.

  171. Ken H says:

    Back in the 80s it was Celtic with the victim mentality and Celtic fans that walked around with the huge chips on their shoulders. They seem to have (largely) grown up and it Rangers that seem to have adopted the ‘poor us’ mentality, absolutely bizarre.

    As a supporter of another SPFL team, the visiting of their respective grounds has changed too. Parkheid used to be a nightmare, Ned Central, with added threats of violence, while Ibrox was a breeze. Not the case anymore. Parkheid is a safe, if boring experience now, while visiting Ibrox is hairy, after our League Cap game late last year, I’m not sure I’ll be back.

    While Hibs fans were to blame for the incident, Rangers didn’t help themselves and the self pitying whining afterwards. Never has toys getting thrown out the pram seemed so pathetic.

  172. DONALD McKILLOP says:

    Please enough of this nonsense. Why are people arguing about how bad it would be if children from different sects of the Christian religion are taught in the same classrooms? I have two reasons that from my life experience shows it would be a very good thing to do. Way back, in another life I was a student at Shawlands Academy in the early to mid fifties. At that time a very large minority of the students were of the Jewish faith, and to this day I still appreciate the differences and the sameness of us all. I still remember going to the Cup Final in which St Mirren played Aberdeen, with many of my fellow classmates. Some of us went for the Paisley club and others Aberdeen, the point being it was not along religious grounds. At no time during my long boring stay at Shawlands did I ever witness any religious animosity. As an aside St Mirren won.

    My other reason being that I was an educator for near on forty years here in Melbourne, both in the classroom and as an administrator. I was employed in the state system where all children, of all nationalities and relgions attended. The children mingled with little if any arguments relating to their particular background. The argument that children as young as the ones mentioned on this blog are Roman Catholic or other, is a learned experience only, what is meant here is that the parents of those children are Roman Catholic or Protestant and have decided the child shall be their mirror image, such a sadness to pass on sectarianism and the feeling of being different.

  173. The Isolator says:

    Anyone any idea where the Green Party sit on this?
    I’m assuming there will be ramifications in Holyrood what with a certain MSP and party leader allegedly on the pitch,certain Queens 11 supporters sitting in the stands and the First Minister accused of bias fae inside the “Parish” of Govan.FFS I can see MSP’s from the opposition piling into the government benches.

    Or will this all blow over?Only in Scotland…only in 21 St Century Scotland.

  174. Bob Mack says:

    Re Catholic schools.

    It is well over 50 years since I attended Catholic school as an infant,even though my parents were mixed faith. To this day I can recite the catechism back to front parrot fashion if asked. We were indoctrinated. I remember” buying” a black baby by donating towards the Missions in Africa.This is what we were told by the nuns who taught us.

    Prayers were twice a day with a weekly trip to mass and confession.

    Secondary school had prayer every morning,with the occasional mass for “Holidays of obligation”.

  175. scotspine says:

    Aye folks. Their plan of divide and concquer is coming along just fine I see.

  176. Auld Snody says:

    Well done to all the posters on here who have fallen for the establishment devide and conquer agenda ( just read back the last 20 odd posts) . Led by the nose and not all of them blue..

  177. Socrates MacSporran says:

    For a period in the late 1970s I lived in Dewsbury, my four daughters went to school there. The three oldest went to a middle school – roughly ages 7 to 13. The eldest’s class was perhaps 60/40 ethnic British to ethnic Asian; the next’s class was slit 50/50, the third’s class was 30/70 British/Asian.

    I was then transferred back to Scotland, but learned from friends we had made there, when my youngest daughter’s class moved up to that school, there were only five “white” pupils in that year’s intake, all the rest were Asian Muslims.

    There were no Muslim state schools, but, my daughters’ Muslim class-mates had to, after their stint in the state schools, go along to the local mosque, where they were educated in the ways of Islam.

    Now I make no comment on the well-established fact that an awful lot of radical Islamists, including Isis fighters, seem to have come from Dewsbury and the West Yorkshire area, but, I will say – their radicalisation was done without the assistance of British taxpayers, funding their religious schools.

    If the Roman Catholic Church, or the Church of Scotland, or the Baptists or Methodists, or Mormons wish to educate their members’ children in their particular faith, then they should be free to do so, in their own time, and with their own money.

    The state education system should purely be used to teach our children the three Rs, science etc, preparing them for life. Matters of religious or non-religious belief are for teaching at home and via the teachings of their own church or non-church.

    I do not think the philosophy of “Catholic schools” is about bringing-up the next generation as “good Catholics”, it is about the Church of Rome having a wee bit of political influence at local council level.

    I have a very good friend, a retired teacher. He went to St Aloysius, has an Honours degree in his subject and taught in “Protestant” schools. He applied for a promoted post at a “Catholic” school, was by a mile the best candidate, but, he was black-balled by the priest who represented the Church of Rome on the appointments board – because he had commited the heinous crime of marrying a Protestant and not insisting on his children being raised as Roman Catholics.

    Thus, the local RC children were denied the guidance of a good teacher, the local non-Catholic kids got the benefit.

    In this small former mining village in East Ayrshire, this being “Orange County”, we have precious few RC families. Every morning their Primary-age chldren are bussed past three state primary schools on their six-mile journey to the local RC primary school. Their older brothers and sisters have a 20-miles-plus journey, past three large comprehensives, to the nearest RC secondary.

    Surely the savings in transportation costs alone, far less the costs of staff, buildings upkeep and so-forth makes it obvious, it would be cheaper to educate ALL our children locally in non-denominational schools.

    If the parents wish their kids to be schooled/indoctrinated in their faith, let they, the parents pay for this.

    In advocating this, I do not suggest doing away with faith schools would in the short term eliminate religious differences or sectarianism. It would definitely not eliminate the sort of blind hatred on religious grounds we see from radical Islam, or, nearer home, the more-extreme end of the LOL, but, here in Scotland, it might in time persuade the young Billy King of Larkhall that his contemporary, Sean South of Croy, is not the two-headed monster he is made out to be.

  178. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Regarding the on-field, post-match disturbances on Saturday at Hampden. I noticed on the Rev’s twitter feed, someone posted some video on the minor pitch invasion at the end of the Kilmarnock v Falkirk play-off on Sunday.

    Maybe 100 (at most) Killie fans erupted onto th pitch at the final whistle. In the video, which lasts some 24 seconds, a small group of about 10 mainly teen-aged Killie fans can be seen breaking off and heading towards the Falkirk fans to gloat at them.

    The Police an stewards very-quickly turned them around, but, this clearly shows – every club has its share of bams, but, perhaps Hibs and the Rangers Tribute Act have more bams than Killie.

  179. Ken500 says:

    Just sing other songs. What is the problem? Either sing another songs or go out of business. Football clubs like every other organisation have to obey the Law or go out of business, Businesses or organisation that promote bigotry and sectarian will fail because the majority are non religious. Limited market. People can still get tanked before and after the Match.

    Businesses which deliberately tax evade should be held to account. 2019 the taxman cometh. One football company will be held to account. C’est la vive. Obey the rules of the game or fail.

    There is now a Gov in Holyrood prepared to change the rules supported by a majority. The 2nd rate rejects out of their league, are just trying to cause trouble.

  180. Almannysbunnet says:

    Back to Scotland and boring old politics. This from the country that is too wee, too poor and too stupid.

    “Scotland achieved record-breaking levels of inward investment last year, a survey has found. On the UK regional league table Scotland surpassed south east England to come second behind London.”

    This from a country that is shackled to Westminster. Imagine what we could achieve if free. No SNP praise to be seen anywhere and what is our unionist opposition’s main priority, repeal the OBFT. Every minor story blown out of proportion, fans invade a football pitch, big deal, married MP shags a bonnie quine, headlines for days on end, big deal. We are being sidetracked at every opportunity. Remember divide and conquer is their mantra. Keep the eye on the prize!

    https://archive.is/kz9xA

  181. Ken500 says:

    ‘Confessions of an Economic Hitman’ John Perkins 2004

    @ Guardian – On going report of the illegal treatment and persecution of the whistle blowers in the US. Crane etc. Aka Edward Snowdon. On going inquiry on government officials and agencies breaking US Law and being swept under the carpet. Likely to result in Criminal proceedings.

    Kenny McAskill followed Scottish Law and did the right thing.

    Kenny McAskill & Rosanna Cunningham (lapsed?)Catholics brought in the FOBAct. Did the right thing?

    Many Church members follow their faith and conscience and do good work in the community.

  182. Ken500 says:

    Andrew Dunlop, Unelected Scottish Minister. Appointed by Westminster. Thatcher’s henchman. Thatcher illegally and secretly took the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland, kept it secret under the Offical Secrets Act. Destroyed the Scottish economy. Only Devolution has made Scotland better off. FFA/Independence will make Scotland even more prosperous. FFA/ Home Rule was promised. Andrew Dunlop (Lords) -Cameron’s henchman has thwarted that. Westminster policies are still taking £Billions which could be better spent.

  183. Clootie says:

    Ken500 08:45

    Please do not bring religion into the political debate. People act because it is the right thing to do. Your attempt to connect religion with action is poorly delivered. This is not the 18th. century.

    I am not interested in a persons religion (or lack of). We need competent people with the right motivation. Attempting to put people in a box regarding their private beliefs has no place in a modern society

  184. heedtracker says:

    Its only 9AM, David Cameron says leaving the EU is immoral, fracking kicks off in tory England, tory nimbies blocked all wind renewable energy and now they’re fracked, Prestwick airport cant invest with Harvie Green nimby block on APD, tory BBC led media liars say but dont worry, you’ll be the teamGB spaceport, been saying that for 10 years too.

    Its 9.09AM

  185. Grouse Beater says:

    Almannysbunnet: “Keep the eye on the prize!”

    Seconded.

  186. Valerie says:

    @BobMack

    I went to Catholic primary in Paisley. Even at around 7, I became a bit mesmerized, but questioning of all the praying and rituals.

    I also had dozens of questions about the ‘black babies’. We had a bingo card that marked off our contributed pennies, until you had completed, and bought your child.

    I left home at 19, and immediately became a declared atheist, and endured years of moaning, threats and decrees of damnation from my mother. Such a caring woman.

  187. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Tam Jardine 0158.

    An interesting idea.

    I enjoy many of the regular commenters on Wings. They come at the idea of independence from different angles so more extended contributions from them could be stimulating. I’m not sure if The Rev could be persuaded to cut his workload or hand over his red-hot keyboard, though.

    Looking on the bright side, Macart did an excellent job when WGD went into transatlantic kennels.

    Maybe you should repost this on the next new thread.

    BTW , how did Hibs do at the weekend? 😉

  188. Ruby says:

    Almannysbunnet

    It could be argued that the IndyRef put Scotland on the map hence the increase in foreign investment.

    Conclusion: Having a 2nd IndyRef would be good for business!
    Do you think we might see the following headline in any of the Scottish newspapers?

    ‘INDEPEDENCE REFEREDUM RESULTS IN RECORD-BREAKING LEVELS OF INWARD INVESTMENT’

  189. Ken500 says:

    Religion in Scotland plays a major part in politics as it does in some sports. Unfortunately. To deny this is irrational. The majority in Scotland are non religious. Hopefully.

    Well done to any team winning the Cup. Unfortunately now buried in controversy.

  190. AhuraMazda says:

    DONALD McKILLOP, you actually make 6 points but for some reason claim to only make 2. Every single one is wrong and / or based on a disregard for the beliefs of others, an assumption that everybody shares or should share your subjective definition of right and wrong in terms of how to raise children, and insouciance with regards to the historical persecution of Catholics in Glasgow on a level that simply couldn’t be accidental.

    Could you tell us what subject you taught?

  191. Ken500 says:

    FFA/Independence is still coming. Support is going up. Especially under the good governance of the SNP. Another campaign starts in the Summer.

  192. Big Jock says:

    I have been listening to Sunshine On Leith in my car for two days. What a song!

    Just makes me feel good and i’m a Partick fan!

    Is it the best modern anthem ever written about a football team!

    Then it’s Scotland’s Story after that. That song should be played to every child at primary school to make them understand equality,history,inclusiveness and who we are.

  193. Clootie says:

    @Ken500 09:46

    …but why would you research the background of our MSPs with regard religous belief including the unfortunate “lapsed” dig.

    I have never felt the need to research that data. I wonder why you do?

    Religion is only a major part of Scottish politics when you make it so.

  194. Betty Boop says:

    @ Big Jock

    Agree about Sunshine on Leith. My phone ringtone is Cap in Hand – says it all for me.

  195. Almannysbunnet says:

    And in other news, just for laughs:

    “LABOUR is still the “least toxic” party in Scotland, according to an inquiry established by the party’s former policy chief Jon Cruddas MP.”

    @ Ruby, the least we can say is the referendum didn’t put anybody off investing in Scotland. I think huge kudos to the Scottish government for opening investment hubs in Dublin, London and Brussels. Why it’s almost as if they are ignoring Westminster and running things as an independent country 🙂

  196. Big jock says:

    Did I miss something!

    Was there a public enquiry into the unionist louts who destroyed George Square in 2014!

    Seems the media are blowing the pitch invasion into hyperbole mode.

  197. Bill McLean says:

    Time Holyrood took charge of England until their football fans stop chucking bricks and detritus at “the most famous football team in the world’s” bus and Millwall fans stop having a rumble every fortnight. We must never forget the potential for our betters to create situations like Italia 90 and Heysel! Oh and more – export Rangers to where they want to be …….. mind you the English make it plain regularly that they don’t want them either! Pars forever!

  198. Almannysbunnet says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b_lw7t2TE

    Even the horses had a tear in their eye!

  199. DONALD McKILLOP says:

    I am sorry, is it Ahura, but I did not state I had two points, I stated two reasons, and it is only your opinion that I am wrong. Which of what you call 6 points are incorrect? I went to Shawlands, is that wrong? There were many students of the Hebrew faith then, is that wrong? I went to the cup final between St Mirren and Aberdeen with school mates, is that wrong? I was an educator for close on 40 years, both in the classroom and as an administrator, are you telling me that is wrong too? Where in the comment to I make mention of me having no concerns for the historical, as you declare, persecution of Roman Catholics in Glasgow, neither did I mention the persecution of Jews by the Nazis, nor did I mention the persecution of Protestants or others anywhere in the world. I would suggest that you understand that I was only saying there is another way to combat sectarianism and bigotry. Finally, yes I could tell you what subject I taught.

  200. Robert says:

    Bloody brilliant policing

  201. Al Dossary says:

    Why have we gone from the shameless twisting of actual facts by Newco to a discussion about religion, mostly focusing on denominational and non-denominational schools?

    The main organisation that I can see as the stumbling block is the Orange Order along with the brainwashed hordes who follow a certain team from Glasgow.

    One of my old colleagues (a proud Glasgwegian of Irish descent FWIW) had a very valid point re Rangers / Celtic and the trouble that was caused in Glasgow when they played. His point was that most of the people who were arrested tended to have come from the Shires – Ayrshire, Lanarkshire or Fife’shire. Very few of the troublemakers on balance came fem Glasgow.

    On the whole, those of Irish descent are on board with our journey to freedom, but I fear that those from a Unionist background are beyond redemption.

    My oldest child is 23 now, the youngest is 15. Since the day of their birth, my mother-in-law has without fail every year asked if she could take them to see the “Big Walk”. My wife to her credit has refused every time. Thankfully she is unique amongst her other 2 brethren that she wanted nothing to do with the Buckfast and Sash parade (although like me she was fond of the Buckfast in her younger years).

  202. chalks says:

    All Catholic, Protestant, Muslim schools should be closed and at every ‘normal’ school each religion gets to nominate a priest etc to give a sales pitch over why their god is better than the others.

  203. Tam Jardine says:

    Tinto Chiel

    Aye- will repost it later and see if there is interest. I learn so much from btl comments and there are some very insightful, intelligent folk contributing.

    As for Hibs- I enjoyed a marvellous weekend. I wear a Queens scarf or a Scotland scarf and that is enough for me but I’ve been working in Leith for 18 years and have grown very fond of the place and Hibs.

    I watched the gers narrowly beat us in the Scottish Cup a few years back. We hadn’t played competitive football for a month before so were at a disadvantage and we eventually conceded 3-2. Magnificent effort and a big turnout by the Queens fans.

    I’ll never forget big Jim Thomson’s bullet of a header to equalise. Strangely I didn’t feel like running on the park after watching my team lose? Anyway- guid for Leith to get a bit of a buzz and great to see Queen Victoria pit her scarf oan!

  204. K1 says:

    Why are any of your engaging with this clown?

    Can’t you see what he’s doing?

    It’s so laughable if is wasn’t so fucking tragic. Enjoy being ‘wound up’ folk?

    Gaun yersel’s!

    He’s got ye aw talking about yer past and yer ‘stuff’, y’know the ‘stuff’ ye’s wur aw too intelligent to be part of and want no part of? That’s the stuff folks, eh?

    Come back into the present. Let’s go forward. The past is ‘so’ last year.

  205. AhuraMazda says:

    DONALD McKILLOP: “I would suggest that you understand that I was only saying there is another way to combat sectarianism and bigotry.”

    I understand your “way” perfectly. Possibly even better than you do. Have you considered for one nanosecond that your views and solutions might be in themselves a consequence of your upbringing and the values that were bestowed in you?

    In science this sort of thing crops up all the time and so you are always looking for bias in your analysis or experiments that might affect outcomes and conclusions. It’s a given that you will do that and do it thoroughly, it’s kid’s stuff, the sort of stuff you learn on day one. Yet, in here, when it comes to politics and social sciences, that most basic of basic stuff isn’t even considered.

    So, fair enough, you want to close down catholic schools in order to put an end to sectarianism.

    When the sectarian thugs evolve and start attacking Jews, I look forward to hearing you suggest we should close down synagogues as a way of combating antisemitism.

    You are being played and I guarantee Ruth and her new found friends in the Orange Order would agree that we should close down Catholic schools.I wouldn’t be surprised if they brought the issue up quite soon.

    But when you find yourself on the same side as Ruth and the Orange Order, I hope you have a think about how you got there, and I hope you reflect on the hundreds of thousands of votes you lost the SNP and Independence movement.

    Bonkers.

  206. Ahuramazda says:

    K1, it might have escape the narrow parameters of your small mind, but the Unionist have opened up a new front against the Independence movement and it hinges on sectarian division.

    That isn’t something any clown in here can claim credit for.

    Get with the program and stop trying to reduce Wings to some sort of dating website.

  207. Big Jock says:

    Catholic schools are only a problem in two countries as far as I can tell. N Eire and Scotland. They are not a problem in England, US, Germany,Denmark with mixed religious denominations. The problem is not the schools it’s intolerance from mainly one side of the fence!

    There is an anti Irish element in Scotland and right there that is your problem. It gets tied up with religion but it’s really just the Irish the Rangers fans hate.

  208. K1 says:

    On this ‘one’ occasion I will respond to your ludicrous assertion:

    Yer shite’s nae worth sniffing and yer pish reeks tae the high heaven’s.

    Away ye go ye sad wee man.

  209. call me dave says:

    MSP lodges motion defending football act after cup disorder

    https://archive.is/PaBIk

    SNP MP: Football Act should not be repealed after Scottish Cup Final violence

    https://archive.is/GE4l3#selection-1699.0-1699.77

  210. Big Jock says:

    Shutting down or banning anything religious because one group of society cannot behave. Sends out a clear message to the bigots that society backs them.

    By closing Catholic schools this is what happens. I say this as a lapsed catholic who has no time for religion. However I understand the right to practice what you believe in accordance with a free and tolerant society. The two largest religious groups in scotland are Catholic and Protestant. They must learn to tolerate each other not close each other down.

    They stop catholic schools and that stops religious division? The next logical stop is to ban Celtic, Hibs , Hearts and Rangers.

  211. AhuraMazda says:

    Informative as usual, K1.

    You should let yourself go sometimes though, stop worrying all the time about what new visitors to the site might think.

  212. orri says:

    I think the concensus is not to close down Catholic schools provided state funding for the 10% of teaching time based on religion mandated in them is withdrawn. Using the time and facilities outwith school hours for it seems fair enough.

    As to not giving in to troublemakers, isn’t that what happened to allow the derailment of the petition against Laura Kuenssberg?

  213. K1 says:

    You don’t own this site prick. So fuck off wi yer holier than thou pish. Ya wee shit stirring wanker.

    You don’t live in Scotland and you’re not a supporter of Scotland’s Independence, never have been dave. Yer just a wee sad man wi nae pals…and no fucking wonder.

  214. K1 says:

    Oh and I can get increasingly ‘profane’ dave. Anything to draw you away from the bile that you spout…ya fanny. I’m not the one who has tried 4 different persona’s on here and lied through ma teeth about where I am from, how I have voted, where I live…you have.

    That makes you a creep of the highest order and you deserve nothing but disdain for the liar that you are. There’s not a genuine grain of truth in anything you state on this forum, because all of it rests on top of the lie of your credentials. Therefore you cannot be regarded as anything but a disingenuous and thoroughly indecent person.

    You seek to point the finger at others to ‘shame’ them for their ‘language’ on the basis of ‘what others may think of that’ but you cannot see the utter shame of your own position; a liar and a phoney taking the ‘high ground’ in an attempt to shift the emphasis from their own hypocrisy?

    Well here’s what I think of that: fuck of you hypocrite. Got it yet? There is nothing you say on here that will ever have any merit, you are an amateur agitator. Your constant contradictions and weird Tory views are an anathema to the very essence of our cause.

    Now away and fuck off ya prick.

  215. Big Jock says:

    Orri – I agree in principal with taking away funding for the RE element of Schools as it’s elective. However it must include every school. Some Protestant schools observe RE as well.

  216. orri says:

    Think it might have been an hour a week if you were “lucky”. Even then it was actual RE rather than RI, education vs instruction. Been a hell of a long time but there was at least a nodding of the head into comparative religion. All a monumental waste of time as if you want your kids to follow your faith then take them to church, synagogue, mosque or temple. Or teach them at home by providing an example.

  217. Big Jock says:

    Like I say Orri -Live and let live. I gave up religion years and years ago. I might be wrong and get struck down. But the way I see it the fact there are thousands of religions. Means that not one of them can prove they are the true faith.

    Some think they are better than others, but isn’t that the same with everything in life!

  218. AhuraMazda says:

    Meltdown.

  219. K1 says:

    Go to a hospital then!

    (doesn’t alter the facts dave whatever yer wee ‘insinuation’ is supposed to imply, just comes across as more creepy dave stuff)

  220. Paula Rose says:

    @Tam Jardine – Hi Tam, how about writing a piece and asking the Rev if he will publish it, then we can have a discussion around the points you raise and no doubt those of others.

  221. orri says:

    ‘Course the one thing that remains, except in households where it’s banned, is that for most of the western world kids get taught the fundamentals of religion via Disney. OK so a lot of the source material is based on old stories but the fact is that there’s often more morality and justice in their cartoons than there is in holy books.

  222. Petra says:

    @ DONALD McKILLOP says at 5:52 am ……

    ”Please enough of this nonsense. Why are people arguing about how bad it would be if children from different sects of the Christian religion are taught in the same
    classrooms? ….

    My other reason being that I was an educator for near on forty years here in Melbourne, both in the classroom and as an administrator. I was employed in the state system where all children, of all nationalities and religions attended. The children mingled with little if any arguments relating to their particular background….”

    Thanks for taking the time to post on here Donald and giving us some insight into the educational system in Melbourne. Sounds good to me.

    I’ve got relatives living in Melbourne, Geelong, and have visited them on a number of occasions. Travelled from Darwin down the East coast to Geelong and then on to Adelaide. What a country. Fantastic.

  223. Mick DIAMOND says:

    Loads of catholic schools in england, no discussions about closing them down, no problems created by them. Only in scotland religious intolerance.

  224. Petra says:

    I don’t know Mick, I don’t live there, but there seems to be a great deal online about religious intolerance in schools in England.

    http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2015/january/uk-closing-christian-school-for-religious-intolerance-/?mobile=false

  225. Derek says:

    Is it true that the SFA are one of the richest FA’s in the World? Should spend more on stewarding and policing surely?

  226. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “You cannot enter the field of play at anytime and you most certainly cannot rough up, barge, push or physically intimidate the athletes, 114 year wait for a trophy or not. In this day and age the safety of all athletes, match officials and non-football working professionals is the baseline at a modern sports venue.”

    No, of course you can’t. Our other article called for a zero-tolerance attitude to fans assaulting players.

  227. AhuraMazda says:

    Mick Diamond, I don’t think you understand the situation.

    See, we have a “sectarian” problem. What that means in reality is that there’s a tendency amongst certain types to attack catholics, especially those with Irish ancestry.

    Now, as I point out, that group of nutters accounts for about 90% of the trouble caused. The other 10% being the sort of natural reaction and response you get when minorities are victimised. (try attacking any religious group at random and I guarantee some of them fight back).

    That all being the case, the obvious answer is to close down the schools of the victimised minority. I know, I know, just trust us on this. We mean well so it’s impossible for us to be wrong. You’ll pick it up as we go along.

    Anyway, I need to go make a phone call. I’ve arranged to talk to the Israeli ambassador and give on advice on solving the Palestinian problem — think of the cash they could save on bombs if they were willing to close down those Palestinian Schools.

    I wonder what other troubled areas we could bring peace to with this solution… anyone know the dialing code for the Andromeda galaxy?

  228. Brian McKay says:

    Good analysis, Stewart. You’ve redeemed yourself after your uncharacteristic knee jerk blog earlier in the week. To paraphrase Shakespeare – much ado about not a lot

  229. Tam Jardine says:

    Paula Rose

    Good evening Paula- I intend to and my post earlier was challenging others to do the same to help Stu and the site. I want to try and drag us back to a focus on independence. I will punt the earlier comment on the main thread and see if there is interest.

    Posting comments addressing readers in the witching hour is not ideal if you are looking for a response.

  230. Simon Curran says:

    @Big Jock. I think you’ve got it spot on, same as N. Ireland it’s not really about religion it’s more to do with racism with religion a convenient tribal marker. If it was about religion you’d have expected to see the head of the Catholic Church in Scotland and the Moderator of the Kirk wading into one another on Saturday – didn’t happen. Would be interesting if the idiots who support my team were described more regularly by political affiliation (Unionist) rather than by religious affiliation (Protestant -though I suspect many of our loyal followers are not exactly regulars in the pews)

  231. Big Jock says:

    Let’s be clear about this. Your hardline maniacs in George Square despise the Republic of Ireland, Irish Catholics, Scots of Irish decent. However things changed that day. Because they targeted Scots who support independence of any Creed.

    The enemy of Scotland are these people and their Tory apologists in Government, the media and the legal system. Yes supporters are their new enemy which is all of us in the 45.

  232. Davy says:

    I was on pitch and knew nothing of any trouble till I got home. Was carried away with the atmosphere at what was a major deal for Hibs supporters and one unlikely ever to be bettered in my lifetime…yes it was that big in football terms. Anyway having looked at videos and tv etc, it seems to me there was a few idiots amongst the Hibs support who should not have pushed and in one case kicked rangers players. They would have also been better not to goad rangers fans…but that happens every single week in football, and players are no exception.

    The reaction from RFC was way over the top and embarrassing and some stories defy belief. It was all over in minutes. And the Police are due masses of credit for allowing the crowd to spread out on the field as some people were being crushed in the race to the pitch. There was no heavy handed nonsense from the Police that has been experienced on other trips to Glasgow and they sensibly let the crowds return safely.

    As has been said in many places, Rangers fans have done the exact same thing at places like Aberdeen, when they won the league and broke goalposts etc, trashed Manchester, rioted in Europe and were deeply involved in the 1980 cup final riot which made last Saturday look like a Sunday School bust up. How they can suddenly claim moral high ground defys belief. As to them complaining Hibs never called them to see how their players were?? They were fine, everyone saw that. And as for a statement, is it not obvious a statement would be made on Monday as the team were celebrating, dining at a civic reception etc…heading to a website was hardly a priority and was done so in normal office hours.

    Hibs fans by and large do not condone the violence, but if anyone showed restraint it was the 7k plus support who were on the park only wanting to celebrate a much longed for win on the cup which we have been ridiculed about year after year.

    If there are recriminations then perhaps Mr King could explain why he did not seem to be offended by chants of cheer up Alan Stubbs oh what can it mean to a fat taigy Bas***d after they went 2-1 up? The reality is all football fans taunt each other…those who go too far get punished as they should. Rangers contributed to a what was a fantastic game of football and the errors from both sides are what makes the game so exciting. When the dust settles hopefully people will concentrate on what a game it was, rather than sending threats via twitter etc threatening to hunt down individuals. Send your evidence if you have any to the police and leave it

  233. Bill McDermott says:

    James Kelly is on Scotland Tonight going red as a berry again while making his case for repealing the OBFA.

    John MacKay contradicting Kelly by making the point that the conviction rate is actually quite high.

  234. Bill Steele says:

    Martin Richmond, you say, “The poisonous hand of organised, institutionalised religion is undoubtedly at the root but starving it of two of its most effective totems would at least constrain its ability to set another generation against one another.”

    No “organised Institutional” religious organisation in Scotland, certainly not any church, would for a moment encourage or even accept such behaviour from their members or adherents. I have known many ardent “Protestant” Rangers fans and Orange men and women, who never darken the door of a church except for funerals and an Orange church parade, when the flute band hangs about outside the church. These people may be “cultural Protestants”, but they have not accepted in any meaningful way Christ and His Way.

    I believe that a larger number of Roman Catholic Celtic supporters go regularly to Mass, and observe the feasts and fasts of that Church. But I wonder if the hooligans among the supporters are devout Roman Catholics?

    It seems that you have found a stick to beat any religion other that your own, which you demonstrate to be the “No Religion” religion.

  235. Bill Steele says:

    Martin Richmond, sorry for my poor proof reading. “… that your own” should read than your own.

  236. Big Jock says:

    Bill – I am technically a Catholic as that’s how I was brought up. I moved from calling myself a Catholic then to a Christian. Now I even find Christianity mired in hypocrisy and make believe. I would describe myself as believing in the soul and life after death.

    However I am not sure there is such a thing as God. I think it’s more universal than that. Most religions even christianity are largely invented and fictitious.

    The truth is no one knows what lies beyond this life. Not me, not you and not the various religions. I hope that there is life after death. I try and lead a good life. But I find all religions are based on a lie to control the people they ae supposed to serve.

    You can be a good person and believe in life after death without having a religion. There might be a God there might not be, I don’t know.

    What I find odd about church services is the routine that they create. People stand up, kneel down , chant ,repeat and become pious. There are a lot of people who go to church and think that it makes them better than someone who doesn’t. That infuriates me to the core. Remember the Mafia were said to regularly atted church after committing mass murders. There is too much hypocrisy in Religion.

  237. Mick DIAMOND says:

    Good post big jock, 10.14am. describes my own thoughts exactly.

  238. Big Jock says:

    You couldn’t make this stuff up. Rangers fans want to sack everyone in Scotland and run our country!

    http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/rangers-fan-launches-petition-to-remove-nicola-sturgeon-as-govan-msp-first-minister/

  239. Nuetral Observer says:

    I’m never sure why the Rangers board or indeed TV commentators refuse to acknowledge the “Up to our knees….” bigoted chanting which was clearly audible. Isn’t there some law that’s meant to stamp that out? Could all of this be yet another deflection tactic?

  240. Joannie says:

    The comments underneath that petition are hilarious.

  241. Big Jock says:

    Joanine -I know it made my day!

    Mind and sign this one…LOL

    https://www.change.org/p/change-org-stop-rangers-fans-starting-petitions

  242. Joannie says:

    Lol. Signed.

  243. Walter gallacher says:

    This whole article and reconstruction of the TV footage is to discredit the Rangers statement about fans protecting players. You went to a lot of bother to discredit a statement that was pretty poor. But instead of concentrating on what actually happened ie. assault on at least one Rangers player which is evident in the video you devote an entire article just to discredit the Rangers statement.

    Why do you even our this on an independence website? Instead of constantly attacking Rangers and their fans, many of whom support independence why not focus your efforts on trying to unite independence voters? Or do you think that a tactic of attacking a club associated overtly with unionism despite many of their fans supporting independence is some sort of cunning plan?

    45% needs to be built on rather than whittled away which will be the net result of your stupidity.



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