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While we’re talking about bigots

Posted on January 28, 2018 by

Which we were yesterday, we couldn’t help noticing this:

And that reminded us that we still had some more poll results to reveal.

In our Panelbase survey conducted last month, we asked what we’re pretty sure is the longest question we’ve ever had in a poll:

“Approximately 900 parades or marches by Loyalist organisations such as the Grand Orange Lodge and the Apprentice Boys of Derry take place in Scotland each year.

Some people regard these as provocative sectarian events likely to result in disorder or violence, while others regard them as a matter of fundamental freedom of expression and a celebration of cultural heritage.

Other marches are conducted by various political groups or organisations, including those on the far right, and some also consider political marches to be provocative and/or dangerous. Which of the following is closest to your view?”

That was quite a lot for respondents to chew over, and the results are quite complex, so let’s start with the simplest bit.

Excluding the don’t-knows, a resounding 63% of Scots – more than the Remain vote in the EU referendum – want Orange marches banned. Even including those who have no feelings either way, an absolute majority of 51% want Loyalists off Scotland’s streets, compared to just 30% who think they should be allowed to continue.

But nearly a quarter of the population, also want to outlaw any form of political march, which is pretty drastic. That would, after all, encompass not just the couple of dozen tattooed knuckleheads who populate your average BNP gathering, but also events like the Yes marches on Calton Hill in 2013 and in Glasgow city centre in 2016.

Nevertheless, 24% is a pretty small minority, perhaps reflecting the fact that Scotland doesn’t actually tend to have very many political marches – the number of sizeable ones in the last decade is comfortably in single figures.

But with hundreds and hundreds of Loyalist demonstrations every year, it seems like voters are getting pretty sick of open displays of sectarian hate like this from last year.

The poll breakdowns are interesting. There were only minor differences by sex, age or social class, but native Scots were MUCH keener – more than 2:1 – on banning Orange parades than people born in England (who perhaps don’t really grasp what they’re about), and that ratio was almost identical when it came to Yes and No voters (who definitely do).

There were few differences between party voters on banning political marches, but a range of opinions on banning Loyalist ones, from just 21% among Tory voters rising steadily to 40% among SNP supporters. And equally unsurprisingly, Celtic fans were a lot keener on banning Orange walks (43%) than “Rangers” fans (20%), with other supporters in the middle.

Perhaps less predictably, fans of the Ibrox club were also much less inclined to ban political marches. In total, just 34% of them wanted to ban either type, compared to a whopping 77% of Celtic fans, 57% of those from other clubs, and 50% of those who don’t follow the sport.

There are various spins that could be put on those figures, but the unarguable one would appear to be that despite protests to the contrary, sectarianism in Scotland is still very much tied to football.

And as opposition parties continue to work towards abolishing the OBFA – egged on by pressure groups almost entirely dominated by a loud minority of Celtic fans who want to keep singing their provocative songs while banning everything else – we suspect we’re not the only people apprehensive about the consequences.

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    1. 28 01 18 09:56

      While we’re talking about bigots | speymouth

    2. 29 01 18 00:02

      Scrapping the OBFA plays into the hands of sectarian bigots | My Little Underground

    145 to “While we’re talking about bigots”

    1. Ken500 says:

      No wonder the terraces are empty. Destroying any support. Public money is supporting this nonsense. An affront to common decency.

      Why these Marches are allowed to continue is a mystery. Mucking up the local economy. Beyond belief. In most parts of Scotland they are just banned. Letting misogynistic, secret unequal, exclusive, racist, bigot bully boys roam the streets. Annoying people at public cost. They should be banned from the public fairway. If they want to parade around, they should do it on private ground at their own cost. The authorities are breaking the Law allowing it to continue. Secret societies are unequal.

    2. To celebrate their ‘victory’ over the nasty vile Nats,I propose that a Better Together Orange/Hibernian March take place culminating in Rutherglen with James Kelly, Murdo Fraser and Professor Two Jobs Tomkins leading the parade twirling batons and strutting like drunken chickens.
      All that Peace and harmony would surely be welcomed.
      I repeat; Patrik Harvie, get a grip.

    3. Macart says:

      Apprehensive is one word for it.

      This isn’t going to go well.

    4. Harry Shanks says:

      @ Jack Collatin:

      Why Rutherglen – we threw Kelly out.

      The fact that Scotland still has to thole Kelly is not down to Ruglonians but the same system that keeps serial election failure Murdo Fraser in a job

    5. Valerie says:

      Or, it could be those polled ARE a pretty good sub sample of Scotland.

      I keep saying there is a very hard core of 25% of Unionists.

      If the monarchy were to be declared lizards that had to be fed on Unionists only for the foreseeable, there would be a race to the trains to queue at Buck House.

    6. Highland Wifie says:

      It is true,as the Rev says, that various spins can be put on these figures and banning marches is definitely anti-democratic but OO marches are a stain on our society.
      Personally I don’t know how to reconcile my instinct that freedom to demonstrate or celebrate is a democratic right with my instinct that these hate fests should be wiped from the face of the earth.
      I have never lived in the west of Scotland so thankfully have not seen firsthand the extreme abuse reported but an early experience of seeing a march in Perth where an elderly woman was manhandled for the crime of trying to cross the road left an indelible memory of nasty people with twisted faces full of hatred.
      Perhaps we should copy the strategy used in schools when people behave badly. If the offender won’t leave the classroom the rest of the class does to deprive them of an audience. If we all leave the streets and ignore them then we don’t give them credence or that vital audience.

    7. Clootie says:

      …all a consequence of divide and rule which the Empire used to hold nations and has left a legacy across the World.

      To move forward you either encourage or discourage bad behaviour ( doing nothing falls under encourage). The OBA was far from perfect as a Law but it was exactly what was required as a message from society to bigots.

      We will not change Scotland overnight but the start is to remove those who promote and use division to keep the ruling class in power…Murdos Queens 11.

      The history of Irish suppression is dreadful and should never be forgotten but remember who settled Protestant Scots with reward of good land in order to divide Ireland….Whitehall.

      All problems lead back to London…stop being used!

    8. Valerie says:

      BTW, I saw that Tweet from Peter, and before long it was obvious that the knuckle dragging support had been alerted, or at least the ones that can work Twitter.

      There ensued a lot of nasty derision, and Peter had no right to share his pic.

    9. Derick fae Yell says:

      Coming from the North, I was 35 years of age before I saw, or really heard of, an Orange march. I thought they were noisy buggers. Awful a banging of dirty great drums. Very peculiar.

      This nonsense doesn’t exist in most of the country.

    10. Capella says:

      The Unionist parties have scored an own goal IMO. The majority voters are opposed to sectarian marches. Glasgow could take the initiative and ban them on the city streets. No reason why they couldn’t use a public park to march in if that’s what they want to do.

      Political marches are quite different. As long as anyone who supports the objectives can participate, regardless of race, religion or gender, then there is no reason to ban them. It is discrimination that makes Orange Lodge marches a disgrace in a modern democracy.

    11. Helena Brown says:

      Well seeing this whole thing is engineered by our, ahem, betters down South. When other countries celebrate they do not in general use it as a means to annoy others or to do other human beings with a different point of view down. Coming from Edinburgh I do not remember ever being exposed to this, coming from a religiously split family we have also been tolerant of one and other. The worst experience was being trapped in Stirling by a horde of ugly drunken louts who should have been lifted by the police for committing a public nuisance. What tourists think, I despair.
      Time these were banned, high time.

    12. mike cassidy says:

      Hardly surprising so many Rangers fans don’t want bans on any sort of marches.

      That allows them to place their ambulatory expressions of bigotry inside the concept of political freedom.

      The same way the MSM place their bullshit inside the concept of press freedom.

    13. Helena Brown says:

      Cooties, I second your remarks, Great Grandad came from Donegal, married a protestant lady from Armadale, West Lothian, moved to Edinburgh, raised their children in relative peace, I doubt they could have in West Lothian in those days.

    14. auld highlander says:

      They are just a bunch of knuckle dragging morons living in the past.

    15. Bill Hume says:

      I recently bought a flute. Did you know they have a crown at one end? It’s quite fitting really.

    16. Bob Mack says:

      I was born and grew up I Glasgow. These marches were always passing down the Garscube road from Maryhill heading into Glasgow City Centre. Inevitably they were flanked by drunken men and women with their children. The men and women used to do a kind if jig to the music, whilst shouting out religious bigotry. You could not break their ranks or they would attack you.

      I have family in the Order and I know how it works.” We are the people,No Surrender”.

      Outdated,outlived ,outside civilisation. That is what they really are. This much I can say without contradiction. If you are Catholic ,they hate you. If you are Jewish, they hate you.
      If you fit anywhere, and I mean anywhere outside their narrow perameters of their preference, they hate you. I have heard several spokespeople from the Orange Order on television talking about their charity work etc. Forget it. It exists to promote Protestant Sovereignty and to diminish anything or anybody who may have issue with that aim.

      Thankfully, numbers are diminishing each decade that passes.

    17. Clydebuilt says:

      Peter Geoghegan . . . Was one of the BBC’s expert commentators on after 9am this morning on radio shortbread neither of them managed to mention the Heralds article on a “Right Wing Coup ” to oust Richard Cranium Leonard . . .

    18. galamcennalath says:

      I have witnessed a few OO marches here and there. Ayrshire, Glasgow, West Lothian. I remember in Broxburn the band stopping outside the Roman Catholic Church and carrying out some sort of drumming ritual. At the time I felt that unacceptably provocative. Don’t know if this is still done.

      They swagger along with no self awareness that most bystanders don’t share their world view.

      I wouldn’t ban them. I would accept peaceful and unprovocative marches / demonstrations from anyone. I don’t want a country where we clamp down on free expression on speech unnecessarily.

      I would hope any criminality or violent behaviour would be dealt with, like any other public event – robustly. However, there is the issue of spreading hatred or provoking violence. Laws exist and should be used. I get the impression, that the law isn’t fully implemented.

      OO marches profess to be about culture and heritage. That is fair enough. Their culture, certainly not mine. There is an element of anti Catholic behaviour and I do wonder if it were similar anti Jewish or anti Moslem would the marches be tolerated?

    19. CameronB Brodie says:

      Some people regard these as provocative sectarian events likely to result in disorder or violence, while others regard them as a matter of fundamental freedom of expression and a celebration of cultural heritage.

      You need to look at the objective/intention of the cultural practice, in order to judge the morality of the practice. Know-one has the human right to undermine the human rights of others. Cultural intolerance is not a virtue.

      Scotland’s sectarians are predominantly intolerant bigots of the BritNat persuasion.

    20. Dr Jim says:

      Any organisation that holds itself superior to those not in it or calls for the deaths or blood of people just because they’re not them or celebrates the killing of others should be completely and totally banned

      Commemorating loss of life in a conflict is not the same as celebrating it, and the Orange order do the latter and it shows all over their faces when they do it

      Ex soldiers at commemorations stand in silence to commemorate all dead not just their own side

      *Respect*

      The Orange Order have none

      The government who stands up to this challenge will face huge difficulty but will reap the rewards in votes
      Let’s hope the SNP can find a legal way to get rid of these bigots off our streets

      If Muslims had clubs for Muslims only who preached the same stuff as the Orange Lodge there wouldn’t be any question about it they’d be a proscribed organisation and shut down

      and if it’s all in the name of the English Crown why doesn’t The Queen show up and watch the parade at any of these turnouts is she ashamed of her acolytes

    21. ronnie anderson says:

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/Yes2Provan/permalink/1576219302461795/

      Aye Tommy flying the Flag for Corbyn the same Corbyn that can’t distinguish between Socialism & Capitalism Marr on Sunday 28/1/18 , & the Corbyn that is against Independence of Scotland , how does Tommy square that circle .

    22. Proud Cybernat says:

      Spot the culture…

      https://imgur.com/a/XKEPW

      See what I did there.

    23. Capella says:

      @ Dr Jim, yes, logically Muslims should be able to march and shout through city centres celebrating the defeat of Christians at various times in history.

      King Billy was over 300 years ago.

      What about the victory of the Mahdi over Gordon of Khartoum. That would touch a nerve or two.

    24. mike cassidy says:

      Clydebuilt 10.27

      The Herald’s article archived.

      http://archive.is/lP0mB

      The writer clearly thinks Leonard is less tricky dicky – more limpy dicky.

      http://archive.is/pQo8E

    25. ScottieDog says:

      Patrick wants his freedom of expression and to an extent I agree. Let them walk, stand by and ridicule them. I was looking through my late mum’s things and there are some links to the OO amongst my great grand parents belongings. Someone of the same generation in the family had also written a poem about ‘n@ggers’. It’s quite shocking when you see it but I won’t be throwing any of this stuff out. I disagree with it but if anything it’s a marker for me that most of us have moved on.

      Let’s also see how many Tory and labour links we can spot at the marches. Let’s face it they represent the biggots as was shown in parliament this week.

      The more YouTube parodies we put out about this sort of thing, the more people will just laugh, and the more we link it with unionism the more people will be repulsed.

    26. Liz g says:

      They shouldn’t be banned at all…
      The right to march is not,I think,there to protect the marches we do like…it’s the ones we don’t like that need protection.
      So having said that….it doesn’t mean we can’t respond to the hate.
      If everyone who wanted them banned organized their own event (obviously well away from them as they are a bit feral )as many times a year as they did…something would have to give.
      But I suspect the real answer it to organize to help to make sure trade suffered, that’s where the real power and influence on the permission where they could march would come from.
      But if not enough people feel strongly enough to do that…
      Then leave them alone to get on with it and please don’t risk my right to march or gather.

      I would caution that starting a demand to get these marches banned and create disruption over it….would be right up the establishments street at this point in time.

      They make enough of a fool of themselves…. and there’s a big Scottish cringe lookin fur a place tae go.
      Just keep filming and sharing so we can all watch and laugh from home….the uniforms are especially funny cute on the kid’s but on the grown men….not so much…and don’t get me started on the woman’s hats!

    27. Alan Mackenzie says:

      Freedom of expression is one thing. But that doesn’t mean the freedom to annoy other people EVERY damn weekend.

      The poll question didn’t offer the alternative of “allow the religious marches, but once or twice a year only”. (I suppose the question was already complicated enough.) That would combine freedom of expression with other people’s freedom to go about their normal business.

    28. Fred says:

      Anent the Famine Song, a bit ironic that about a third of those fleeing starvation in Ireland for the west of Scotland were Protestants.

    29. Clootie says:

      @Dr Jim

      You used the key word…Respect.

      I was taught that respect came with two key components
      a) Intent
      b) Impact

      This is the test of behaviour. The OO has clear intent and the Impact is obvious.
      I can joke with a colleague with innocent intent regarding religion,race or sex but I must maintain an awareness of impact and not cross the line into offending.

      We have a long journey ahead of us!

    30. Margaret Wilson says:

      Just wrote to Patrick Harriet telling him of my disgust at the Greens supporting repeal of the OBFA Act. As a pensioner brought up and having lived in the central belt my whole life I am disgusted by sectarianism and religious bigotry. It’s time we tackled it and if this Act is not considered to be the answer, can they not amend it rather than scrapping it. This hatred is Scotland’s shame but the question is the same as independence – how do we open these people’s eyes? Nigh on impossible.

    31. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      This one @Clydebuilt says at 10:27 am

      http://archive.is/llgyq

      Also:

      ‘Feeble, bizarre, inexcusable’ Nicola Sturgeon savages Richard Leonard over Labour confusion on Brexit

      http://archive.is/Km8O4

    32. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Oh and as for the Bigots:

      The SFA must adopt UEFA’s Strict Liability rules, given the imminent repeal of the OBFA.

      https://www.change.org/p/the-scottish-government-the-sfa-must-adopt-uefa-s-strict-liability-rules-given-the-imminent-repeal-of-the-obfa-7da1d545-95cf-491e-a0f3-88a0cb08ac8a

    33. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Oh and as for the Bigots:

      The SFA must adopt UEFA’s Strict Liability rules, given the imminent repeal of the OBFA.

      http://www.change.org/p/the-scottish-government-the-sfa-must-adopt-uefa-s-strict-liability-rules-given-the-imminent-repeal-of-the-obfa-7da1d545-95cf-491e-a0f3-88a0cb08ac8a

    34. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.35

      That’s a good point Dr Jim…
      Where is their Queen?

      All those Marches….. Has she ever been tae wan?
      All that loyalty…… Has she ever thanked them fur it?
      How many Christmas broadcasts…. Did they ever get a mention?
      Lot’s of family……. Have any of the Windsor’s ever joined and marched too (they have loads of uniforms and hat’s)

      Even Kim Jong Whits his face turn’s up to see that kind of loyalty on display.

      Mibbi that’s what we should be askin….. Aye where is this Queen then?
      Because it looks tae me like she canny be bothered wi ye either.

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oppressive social structures (see UKOK), reproduce themselves organically. Scotland’s sectarians procreate and their culuture is supported through the generations by the ‘One Nation’ ideology and British nationalism. This is the biological reproduction of harmful social practice.

      Albert Bandura Social Cognitive Theory and Vicarious Learning
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbruJh0MODI

    36. ronnie anderson says:

      liz g . ( and don’t get me started on the woman’s hats! ) It’s not compulsory for men to wear Bowler hats or any kind of hat but it is compulsory for women to wear a hat Discrimination discrimination , there again it’s the LOLOS who make those rules & not the GOLS .

    37. Harry Shanks@9.54 am.
      No sooner had I pressed ‘send’, Harry, than I regretted wishing hordes of psychopaths on the good folk of Rutherglen.
      I have friends there. We’ve spent many a balmy evening chewing burgers over s fire, and plotting Scottish Independence.
      You’re correct of course. Nobody voted Kelly Fraser or Tomkins into office.
      Tomkins stood in my patch, and my fellow West Enders and I showed the great good sense to consign this chancer to the lost deposit list of also-rans.
      Yet we have the d’Honte system, and fuck what the public think, the Yoon Parties behind closed doors give their mates £1200 a week, and undemocratic power to thwart the will of the electorate.
      I know of no one, and I still move freely about in the real world, who is against a law specifically banning endomorphs preaching hate, sectarianism, and wishing death on their fellow citizens at football matches.

      Die, die, die, ya Fenian/Orange basta. All together now. Fuck off and live in Derry if you want to guard its walls.
      Fuck off an live in Dublin if you want to be off to that fair city, where the bayonets flash.
      This is Scotland.
      We, the people, the real people, will no longer tolerate the Christian religions motivated hatred and psychopathy whipped up by losers like Kelly Tomkins Davidson and Fraser.
      In the short term we must reintroduce FPTP, a flawed system certainly, and seek to reform the electoral system. I did not vote for Two Jobs WATP Tomkins, yet he controls my laws.
      In a week when Portillo can observe that there is no real poverty in ‘Britain’ because everybody has shoes, and Andrew Neil nods in agreement, and the trio of unelected clowns listed above plunge us back into the Dark Ages, the last thing Rutherglen needs is Kelly the Boy From Killane marching down the High Street.
      My apologies, Harry.

    38. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      Maybe the most diplomatic approach would be simply to ban them as being a public nuisance. Or just ban those bloody big drums, that would surely steal their thunder? Then what would be the point of it all, they look even sillier than they do now?

    39. Richard Hunter says:

      I don’t want them banned: I want the people who take part in them to change their minds.
      And I want people who witness them to feel free to voice their peaceful disapproval.

    40. Andy-B says:

      “Nevertheless, 24% is a pretty small minority”

      Isn’t that almost half, in the eyes of some?

    41. Roland Smith says:

      Orange walks were banned in Aberdeen teases ago. Councils should ban them in all areas of Scotland if that’s the desire of the local population.
      Holyrood should legislate to force the SFA to stop the use of inflammatory hate songs at matches.

    42. Glamaig says:

      One thing puzzles me, how do they get to do this so easily? dont they have to pay loads of money to the police for closing the road, or for marshalls? Is money not an issue for them, or do they have special dispensation?

      I used to run in a race which had taken place anually on the same route for about 50 years and used a short section of road. The organisers were told they had to pay the police a substantial sum to close the road, and that was the race finished, in that form at least.

    43. Brian Adams says:

      Rape Clause Ruth Davidson’s foot-soldiers. I’m surprised she is not marching along proudly in front.

    44. Brian Powell says:

      mike cassidy

      ” When Dugdale was leader, Scottish Labour secured the right to take positions on reserved areas, such as on Trident, and lobby the UK party accordingly.”

      It’s hilarious, it is irrelevant what the Holyrood Labour MSPs decide, the Slab Labour MPs will go with Whip on all issues, just as the Tory MPs did.

      Labour in Scotland is irrelevant as they pose no threat to the Tories in Westminster, they abandoned any leverage when they said there was no circumstances where they would support Independence.

    45. ronnie anderson says:

      That 1st photo ( peter geoghegan’s ) is not of a Orange Lodge in Partick it’s a Royal Black Preceptory , different organization from GOLS , but must be a member of OL to join , there are no women in the RBP .

    46. Pauline says:

      I live just half a mile from a lodge house – the marches are disgusting symbol of hate and should be banned. I have a teen with Aspergers and we cannot leave the house,nor at times I’ve had to take her elsewhere to get away from the noise as well. Trapped in our own house because of it. It’s not right and no longer appropriate.

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      Clootie
      Humans are basically walking bags of emotions, with only a smattering of rationality. 🙂

      Emotion and cognition in prejudice
      https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/mcat/individuals-and-society/perception-prejudice-and-bias/v/emotion-and-cognition-in-prejudice

    48. Scott says:

      Liam Kerr We want a Public Inquiry into the SNP.
      I want one into Ruth Davidson telling lies on BBC and her not being called to explain.

    49. Robert Louis says:

      I get that the orange lodge want to keep the queen and keep the protestant faith etc.. But why do they oppose Scottish independence? This is a serious question that never gets answered. At the referendum in 2014, the monarchy would have continued, and their was not a threat to the protestant faith (I mean, really??), so, seriously, why do the orange lodge oppose Scottish independence, since it has nothing at all to do with their ‘beliefs’?

    50. mike cassidy says:

      Ronnie Anderson. 11.48

      Wings really is an education.

      The Royal Black Preceptory.

      And they re-enact the Battle Of The Boyne.

      http://www.bandparades.co.uk/archives/51653

      I wonder if it includes a scene of the Pope giving King William his blessing.

      Question is, who would volunteer to play the part?!

    51. gus1940 says:

      About 30 years ago I witnessed an OO Walk which had been imposed on the good citizenry of Edinburgh.

      It was, of course, right in the middle of the tourist season and standing in front of Register House I was not surprised at the puzzled expressions on the faces of the many tourists who were witnessing the vile event.

      One of the bands which passed belonged to a Lodge dedicated to that old Scoundrel Mountbatten. The band uniforms were based on RN Officers ones but what nearly made me wet myself laughing was the fact that every man jack of them was an Admiral Of The Fleet.

    52. ScottieDog says:

      “Humans are basically walking bags of emotions, with only a smattering of rationality. ?”

      Not according to the ‘science’ of neoclassical economics worshipped for the past forty years of uk governance!
      Apparently we are ‘rational participants’.

      The Torres still believe in Ricardo’s idea of ‘intergenratonal saving decisions’. This means that if the government spends today (runs deficits), I will make the decision to save because I believe they will tax future generations.

      Yep – the economists running the UK.

    53. Bob Mack says:

      @Fred,

      Yes, and it was not a famine either. Only the potato crop failed. Whilst people were dying on the land ,thousands of tons of livestock and grain was still leaving for English shores. It could have easily fed the people till the next potato crop. It was in fact Genocide for business. England eh?

    54. gus1940 says:

      O/T but while Football is being discussed I have always been puzzled by the near universal practice in the Scottish Media by their quaint obviously compulsory requirement when reporting football of starting the report with the name of the club and then instead of that referring to them by the name of their stadia. e.g. The Ibrox Club, The Parkhead Club, The Tannadice Club etc.

      This quaint and stupid convention seems to be unique to Scotland as I have never observed it in the South British media.

    55. Valerie says:

      Here’s an interesting coincidence. I dont believe in them any more than the magic man in the clouds.

      Mhairi Hunter (Glasgow SNP Cllr) saying she wants to try and halt a SDL march in Govanhill.

      Many on thread suggesting if OO get free rein, no reason other hate groups can’t.

      They have a point. If you tolerate religious hatred, why not racial hatred? I think the answer is you dont choose your place of birth, but you can choose to express your religion freely.

      However, I dont think it squares the circle fully. Hate is hate.

    56. geeo says:

      The SG can have a huge influence over the SFA should they choose to exercise it.

      Uefa and fifa are very clear, that where political interference in a nations football association occurs, there are pretty severe sanctions available.

      Such as shutting down leagues and banning national teams from tournaments (that would save us the embarrassment of trying to qualify mind you).

      So..the SG could make demands of the SFA, which would have the consequence of political enforcement by legislation if they did not comply, in relation to bigotry at football.

      At the very least, it would force football to actually address the issue.

    57. gus1940 @12.20.
      Indeed, gus. somehow referring to Manchester Utd. as ‘the Salford Club’ doesn’t really work, does it?
      Were you a sub ed in a previous life?

    58. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I see mention of the Royal Black Preceptory. The “Blacks” are the bigots’ bigots, but, a very-powerrful organisation in Ulster.

      In the interests of levity – many years ago “The Big Walk”, the Ayrshire County one, was held, as it regularly is, in Cumnock. At the time I was working on a local opencast, where we had a considerable Irish presence in the workforce – the site was run by Wimpey.

      Any way, we finished work at noon, then went into Cumnock for a jar or two, before joining the watching crowds to see the parade pass.

      This one guy was running around with a portable tape recorder, recording the bands, and occasionally asking bystanders, or marchers to: “Say something for the tape”.

      The responses were normally “FTP” and similar words of love.

      ‘The Red Doc’, a legendary Irish muck-shifting man, then tapped him on the shoulder and asked if he could contribute. The guy agreed, whereupon Doc – who by the way did the best Ian Paisley impression I have ever heard – told the guy and the tape: “Youse is nothin’ but scum – a shower of low-life dirty Orange Bastards.”

      The guy with the tape recorder then took another look at the six-foot-five, ginger-haired Doc and decided to beat a hasty retreat. Even the Protestants in our number were laughing.

    59. Graemeo Rab says:

      I’ve seen many of these OO marches over the years and as a very young boy was in attendance at some (Peer Pressure). I learned as a teenager the idiocy of them and their hatred of all things Scottish(you are ok if you are a house Jock/negro type though). I would then avoid or physically turn my back if I encountered them. Best solution for me is ridicule and charge them Shit-loads of cash to self Police just like any other March has to do.

    60. AAD says:

      I would be loath to ban any expression of opinion or any culltural expression. However, some opinions are quite simply not fit to be expressed in a civilised society. I was recently treated to a midnight rendition of ‘Hullo, Hullo, we are the Billy Boys’but the words ‘Up to our knees in Fenian Blood’ were rendered in a nasal whine presumably to make it more acceptable to the general population. I am sure Celtic supporters have equally offensive songs to sing; I just don’t happen to hear them where I live. I don’t want to hear them. Removing the legislation seems to suggest that the problem does not exist. I have not seen any proposals for dealing with the problem from those who want rid of the legislation.

      In the case of the’walks’ conducted by the Orange Order and all the other factions of the Orange Order I think there is a case for allowing one to be held in Scotland per year. I do not see the need for what seems to be weekly walks being held throughout the year.

    61. ronnie anderson says:

      Mike Cassidy In days of yore band members had to be in the lodge & wear a Collarette ( sash ) on the parade long since abandoned. I see you’ve put a link to Band Parades & that’s where the most disruptive element’s reside ( band followers ) & the public associate that with orange parades which to their discredit they allow on their bus transport to annual parades .

    62. CameronB Brodei says:

      Robert Louis
      Sectarianism is essentially both the social articulation and social reproduction of the power structures of inequality. It is essentially about gaining and protecting political privilege.

      Policy, Power and Sectarian Identities in the MENA Region
      Understanding sectarian dynamics

      The first panel brought together perspectives from Fanar Haddad (Middle East Institute, National University of Singapore) and Ernesto Braam (Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of the Netherlands). Polarization along sectarian lines is one of the most destructive trends that transcend the MENA region, said Ernesto Braam. It has served to reinforce other negative trends, such the polarization between secularists and Islamistsandthe rise of jihadi Salafism.

      However, the panel agreed that there is nothing unique about sectarian dynamics and identity; Fanar Haddad argued that the sectarian divide is much like many societal divides that form along inherited identities, such as race, ethnicity or region. Ultimately, these different trends have emerged as a result of the failure of order in the MENA and the fragmentation of societies.

      When inflamed, these divides become about power and access to political and economic resources. The only unique feature about the Sunni–Shia divide is that it is inordinately inflamed, Haddad argued. It has blurred the lines between
      what is social, political and regional geopolitical.

      Sectarian differences cannot be ignored; in the name of national unity, states have in the past suppressed the rights and religious identities of those deemed to be ‘out-groups’; these are now making more sect-centric demands as the traditional state order has weakened. Instead, a less conflictual relationship needs to be developed….

      https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/field/field_document/Sectarianism%20conf%20summary%20FINAL.pdf

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Louis
      Sectarianism is essentially both the social articulation and social reproduction of the power structures of inequality. It is essentially about gaining and protecting political privilege.

      Policy, Power and Sectarian Identities in the MENA Region
      Understanding sectarian dynamics

      The first panel brought together perspectives from Fanar Haddad (Middle East Institute, National University of Singapore) and Ernesto Braam (Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of the Netherlands). Polarization along sectarian lines is one of the most destructive trends that transcend the MENA region, said Ernesto Braam. It has served to reinforce other negative trends, such the polarization between secularists and Islamistsandthe rise of jihadi Salafism.

      However, the panel agreed that there is nothing unique about sectarian dynamics and identity; Fanar Haddad argued that the sectarian divide is much like many societal divides that form along inherited identities, such as race, ethnicity or region. Ultimately, these different trends have emerged as a result of the failure of order in the MENA and the fragmentation of societies.

      When inflamed, these divides become about power and access to political and economic resources. The only unique feature about the Sunni–Shia divide is that it is inordinately inflamed, Haddad argued. It has blurred the lines between
      what is social, political and regional geopolitical.

      Sectarian differences cannot be ignored; in the name of national unity, states have in the past suppressed the rights and religious identities of those deemed to be ‘out-groups’; these are now making more sect-centric demands as the traditional state order has weakened. Instead, a less conflictual relationship needs to be developed….

      https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/field/field_document/Sectarianism%20conf%20summary%20FINAL.pdf

    64. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Louis
      Sectarianism is the articulation and social reproduction of the power structures of inequality. It is essentially about gaining and protecting political privilege.

      Policy, Power and Sectarian Identities in the MENA Region
      Understanding sectarian dynamics

      The first panel brought together perspectives from Fanar Haddad (Middle East Institute, National University of Singapore) and Ernesto Braam (Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of the Netherlands). Polarization along sectarian lines is one of the most destructive trends that transcend the MENA region, said Ernesto Braam. It has served to reinforce other negative trends, such the polarization between secularists and Islamistsandthe rise of jihadi Salafism.

      However, the panel agreed that there is nothing unique about sectarian dynamics and identity; Fanar Haddad argued that the sectarian divide is much like many societal divides that form along inherited identities, such as race, ethnicity or region. Ultimately, these different trends have emerged as a result of the failure of order in the MENA and the fragmentation of societies.

      When inflamed, these divides become about power and access to political and economic resources. The only unique feature about the Sunni–Shia divide is that it is inordinately inflamed, Haddad argued. It has blurred the lines between
      what is social, political and regional geopolitical.

      Sectarian differences cannot be ignored; in the name of national unity, states have in the past suppressed the rights and religious identities of those deemed to be ‘out-groups’; these are now making more sect-centric demands as the traditional state order has weakened. Instead, a less conflictual relationship needs to be developed….

      https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/field/field_document/Sectarianism%20conf%20summary%20FINAL.pdf

    65. Scott says:

      Sorry this is way O/T but it does say something about a Tory Lord.

      I watched a program about Knoydart by Paul Murton and was curious about what he was saying about the Seven men of Knoydart so had a search very interesting,this is one thing I found out.

      By 1948 Knoydart was under the ownership of Lord Brocket, who was controversial for his fascist activities. His estates were used for entertaining supporters of Germany and Brocket became a committed member of the Anglo-German Fellowship, and known in society as a Nazi sympathiser.

      There is a song about this and it does not paint a pretty picture about the Lord but then again they thought sheep much more valuable than people nothing has changed regarding the people side as far as the Tories are concerned.

    66. ClanDonald says:

      My own experience of twitter in the last week, regardless of the OFBA, is that there are an awful lot of bigots who don’t want their freedom of hate speech curtailed.

      Bigots wanna bigot.

    67. Bob Mack says:

      We cannot make laws against people voicing racism ,sectarianism or any other kind of ISM. And then say that certain groups only have a free hand to indulge in it. Where’s the sense in that ?

    68. heedtracker says:

      Stench from tory The Graun very very high today, Scots clearly cannot run our S____d region, they’re just not genetically capable, they’re just faffing around, wasting time, we Brits in London must do it for the silly Scots, etc.

      http://archive.is/63NQs

      Politicians are fretting over flags while the country falls to pieces
      Kevin McKenna

      On Thursday, after years of campaigning, the Labour party in Scotland finally succeeded in its mission to dismantle the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act. Admittedly, this is a badly thought-out law that criminalises supporters for espousing unruly sectarian sentiments in and around football matches.”

      Usual The Graun’s Scotland’s still a shithole, SNP out, ending with,

      “In other news in Scotland: Oxfam has revealed that the country’s richest 1% have more wealth than the bottom 50%; the educational attainment gap is as wide as the Clyde and Police Scotland is in a state of unprecedented crisis.”

      Why The Graun’s left out all beeb Scotland gimp network’s sterling Ban the OBFA campaign or even why OBFA was badly thought out, is not the UKOK point.

      From the UKOK archives,

      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2014/sep/13/orange-order-march-in-edinburgh-in-pictures

      The Graun, ecstatically celebrates the Orange Order in lovely ways, days before 18 Sept 2014.

      Makes you proud to be a Brit

    69. Tom says:

      I have,through quite a few years of tracing my Irish (Protestant and Catholic) family history, read books authored by a distant (Protestant) uncle which tells of the poverty and hunger suffered by his family at the time (1840s and 50s). The story is a heart breaking one. What happened then was not unavoidable. While the people were starving to death the English landowners were exporting all the sellable foodstuff leaving the impoverished locals to steal or forage to stay alive. If they were unfortunate to get caught stealing the consequences were harsh.

    70. Proud Cybernat says:

      I think it was an American judge who said to a polygamist something like, “You’re perfectly free to believe whatever you want – you’re just not free to do whatever you want.”

      People are perfectly free to hate whomsoever they please. They are not, however, free to express that hatred in our public streets. Not in my book anyway.

    71. In my opinion the cause of all this is lack of intelligence do they not realise that they are only being used by the establishment into believing they are something special and are being exploited by them I was approached years ago to join my local orange flute band as I was 6yearsj in the scots guards core of drums and of course a Protestant I refused their invitation also my grandfather was in the black lodge in Ireland but as I say I think they are only being used like cannon fodder in the the w.w.1 where my grandad was killed

    72. Cubby says:

      Sectarianism is a vile disease that started from London and keeps getting passed down generations. These marches are an embarrassment to Scotland and should be banned. Our politicians use this type of hatred to divide people in Scotland. Orange order and Fenian marches alike spout hatred and need to be consigned to the history books.

      Scottish Greens what are you doing encouranging this type of behaviour at football matches?

      Shame on you and all who encourage this horrible behaviour. People like Murdo Fraser and James Kelly are just awful politicians who just exist to spread hatred and divide Scotland. They will always get a platform as long as we have the British Nationalist list system at Holyrood. This needs reforming.

    73. hackalumpoff says:

      Philippa Whitford talking Brexit starting in 30 minutes at
      https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/StirlingWFIbrexitNHSpw

    74. jfngw says:

      @heedtracker

      It’s Kevin McKenna, a journalist for all seasons. He will pen a piece that matches the requirement of the publication.

    75. galamcennalath says:

      It is perhaps worth considering how and why the OO came to Scotland.

      It’s root lie in 1790s Ireland. The OO was created as a counter to the Society of United Irishmen which advocating an independent Irish republic that would unite both Protestants and Catholic. This thinking would have been driven by events in America, no doubt. Early branches of the OO also appeared in Scotland with the shared aim of supporting monarchy and ‘British’ rule.

      Mid 19thC saw large numbers of Irish being driven to Scotland by both famine at home and work opportunities in industry in Central Scotland. The same potato crop failure also caused large numbers of Scots to move from the islands and Highlands to the south, or to Canada.

      The Presbyterian Irish from Ulster dramatically expanded the relatively small OO presence. They saw the OO as a means to differentiate themselves from Catholic Irish immigrants and also to reinforce their status as being loyal to the Crown. The OO became the social, cultural and political focus for immigrants from Ulster.

      These people almost certainly didn’t feel Irish at all. Their roots were in Scotland having been settled in the Plantation of Ulster in the 1600s. Their political stance, however, seems totally related to past events in Ireland.

    76. Proud Cybernat says:

      “It’s our right…”

      https://imgur.com/CuU12B7

    77. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’m curious.

      Last year there was a YES march through Glasgow, just the ONE mind, and they were struggling at one point to raise enough cash to pay for “security” training for people to control the marchers. Apparently the training costs what most folks would call an arm and a leg. Do these bigots in the Orange Order walk have to pay the same amounts for their “security” training?

    78. Artyhetty says:

      Marches that promote and express hatred and even violence towards others are not acceptable. Can the hate songs be banned, probably not, but if you start to ban these lot from marching, it could cause more trouble and trouble is what the Britnats want in Scotland, that is very clear.

      Marches that protest injustice and, or maltreatment of others, or expression of demands for democracy, ie political marches, are integral to a democratic society.

      I think the person here who said they saw an old woman manhandled quite viciously at an OO march, says it all. They used to march in Durham years ago, if you saw them, you looked the other way, their presence was so bloody scary.

      The SDL lot can be stopped, they must be stopped and why now? The potential for trouble and to portray Scotland as dysfunctional, divided and violent must concern us all.

      Been reading about Latin America, especially Venezeula, they have oil, they will not be left to run their country in peace, no way, it is of great concern. The EU are involved and not in a good way imho.

    79. Iain C says:

      A question that so far no-one has been able to give me a reasonable answer to: Why do the loyalists not celebrate the victory at Culloden as they do the Boyne? Surely the putting down of a Rebellion is worth commemorating.

    80. heedtracker says:

      jfngw says:
      28 January, 2018 at 1:28 pm
      @heedtracker

      It’s Kevin McKenna, a journalist for all seasons. He will pen a piece that matches the requirement of the publication.

      He will. Gave up being mortified by that ghastly hypocrite rage The Graun, as they went UKOK apeshit at Scotland, or rather Scots that want to end this shithead union.

      McKenna is just one of thousands of professional liars, going about their tory business but his wee dig/troll at the end of his Graun thing today, about Scottish poverty, is unusually sneaky shit, even for him, if you have been following the rolling SNP out Herald campaign lately.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fantasists/#more-101264

      Massed ranks of UKOK hacks do have a lot of work on their tory plates, holding down Scotland in the OO gutter, but its still quite odd to see just how they do read WoS and then do like to their shots in.

    81. Artyhetty says:

      RE;Cubby@1.21

      Indeed and it comes from outside of Scotland mainly, it suits the Britnat establishment to create division and bobs your uncle it portrays Scotland in a very negative light to the world. Job done for the British nationalists.

      There is a consultation out at the moment, go to, consult.gov.scot there is a ‘Consultation on electoral reform’ re Scotland. Not sure in what capacity, not had time to look at it yet, but something we should all look into very closely. It closes 12th of March.

    82. heedtracker says:

      Iain C says:
      28 January, 2018 at 1:51 pm
      A question that so far no-one has been able to give me a reasonable answer to: Why do the loyalists not celebrate the victory at Culloden as they do the Boyne? Surely the putting down of a Rebellion is worth commemorating.

      Because Culloden was a complete and utter triumph, for the nascent British Empire, for first gen yoons in Scotland, for George 11, the great German English King and EU dynastic demi-god, who then built lots of emperial stuff in his Scotland region like Fort George, not to crush Scots but as the great teamGB lie machine explains at visitors to Culloden, it was all to defeat the “Jacobites.”

      https://www.visitscotland.com/info/see-do/fort-george-p245961

      The Irish had other ideas, about their country.

    83. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I know this is a controversial opinion to hold, and the Rev has a particular aversion to the song, but, I find The Famine Song being rather a good wind-up.

      OK, some of the historical “facts” aluded to in it are fake news, but, the whole idea of the song was to get up the noses of the “Plastic Paddies” who follow Celtic, and, as such, I feel it hits the spot.

    84. Brian Powell says:

      There is a lot of complaints about what Tories do and impose on Scotland thought they are a minority in Scotland.

      But the realty is there are a substantial number of Scots who are willing to do anything to protect themselves, they want somebody faraway to save them, even when they don’t know what that person will actually do.

      If Scotland votes No again then as far as I’m concerned it can stew in all the shit it created for itself.

    85. Brian Powell says:

      ‘not willing to do anything to protect themselves’.

    86. Brian Powell says:

      ‘who are not willing to do anything to protect themselves’.

    87. geeo says:

      I have been discussing this with a pal today via text, and he said, “Scotland is a big place, they could surely find a wee isolated place to sing their songs to the local widlife, without bothering normal humans”.

      And you know what, he is right.

      Quick search later and it turns out Scotland HAS plenty space.

      Scotland v uk

      Geology.

      The land area of Scotland is 30,414 square miles (78,770 km2), 32% of the area of the United Kingdom (UK).
      The mainland of Scotland has 6,160 miles (9,910 km) of coastline.

      32% of uk land mass.

      Yet only 8.4% of uk Population.

      If Scotlands population matched the uk land mass share (32%) we would have a population of just over 21 million !!!

      That is nearly 4 times the current population.

      If these religious zealots and bigots cannot find a quiet, non populated corner of Scotland to go play their wee 17th century re-enactments and general bammery, i would gently suggest they are not looking very hard.

    88. galamcennalath says:

      Iain C says:

      Why do the loyalists not celebrate the victory at Culloden as they do the Boyne?

      Probably because their culture is rooted completely in Ireland and does not consider Scottish history at all.

      The Scottish equivalent of the Battle of the Boyne was the Battle of Killiecrankie. In that case the Williamites lost. Although, of course, they ultimately triumphed.

      Paradoxically perhaps, William of Orange did not trust the loyalty of English forces so did not take any to Ireland for his punch up with James.

    89. heedtracker says:

      If Scotland votes No again then as far as I’m concerned it can stew in all the shit it created for itself.

      Its over 300 hundred years of Englishisation of Scotland. That’s clearly not going to change in the blink of an eye.

      Likes of Lady Mone of Mayfair, 26 bishops in their Lords have far more power in Scotland 2018, not 1818, than any Scot.

      Its ok though, Lord Steele to the rescue, rejoice, says Rupert Murdoch, 2018, Rupert never lies too.

      https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2151358/lib-dem-peer-lord-steel-guardian-scottish-devolution-brexit/

    90. galamcennalath says:

      geeo says:

      Scotlands population

      At the time of Union, the ratio of Scotland to England was 1:4. Now it is 1:10.

      What happened? An unequal Union, that’s what. Scots were forced to disproportionately emigrate because of poorer opportunities here.

    91. What happened to my post at 1 28 pm today ???

    92. Liz g says:

      Iain C @ 1.51
      As far as I understand it Iain Culloden it not commemorated because they are ashamed of it.
      Not only the killing of the wounded on the field in the aftermath of the battle itself.
      But also the genocidal behavior that followed.

      I have read accounts of Londoners being disgusted by the actions of Butcher Cumberland (a son of the King) after some missionary had written an account of what was happening.

      I also understand that the name of the battle itself is not included on the list of the regimental honours of the regiments that took part.
      Apparently the only battle that’s not….but I don’t know how true that claim is.
      Either way that battle and the ethnic cleansing that followed is not supposed to be remembered or taught.

      And the fact that it took place at all probably breached the 1707 Treaty of the Union anyway.
      We are not supposed to be under English law,so they had and still don’t have any business enforcing it up here!
      Not forgetting since the so called “crimes ” of so called “rebellion” were tried in England…. That’s not supposed to happen either,just like the Lockerbie trial that had to be under Scottish law so should any other trial of an alleged crime committed in Scotland!
      But that didn’t happen,so Culloden and all the issues surrounding it up to and including an American time travel show,and the origin’s of their national anthem, are treated as a don’t ask don’t tell issue for Westminster and the MSM.
      No way do the OO want to go there.

      Mind its the behavior of the Crown post 1690 that would also be under the spotlight and no just the 1706 Treaty arrangements.

    93. Proud Cybernat says:

      Totally O/T (apologies Rev)

      Does anyone know if any indy-supporting group or organisation are able to send News Alerts to people’s phones? I imagine it would require an app to be downloaded onto my smart phone but I just wondered if any Indy group had such a thing or were developing such (The National?).

      It just seems to me that this would be an important, nae VITAL, tool in run-up to IR2. I’d like it on me phone, please. Fed up hearing people’s phone’s going off in pub’s & restaurants, trains, buses and so on with Sky & BBC ‘News Flash’ alerts.

      We need to push (as opposed to ‘pull’) pro-indy perspectives onto folks’ phones so that important developments get out there fast and word can spread instantly.

      Anyone know is such an app already exists for pro-indy ‘News Flash’ alerts?

    94. Andy-B says:

      O/T.

      Here Jeremy Corbyn promises to purchase 8,000 homes immediately after becoming PM, to home, the homeless.

      Is this just populist politics by Corbyn?

      http://archive.is/vqlul

    95. Fred says:

      @ Scott, the Seven Men of Knoydart, having marked out crofts for themselves on Brocket’s estate, faced eviction & appealed to the uncrowned king of Scotland, Labour’s Tom Johnston for support. Johnston apparently sailed to Knoydart on an RN ship, never landed & sailed back to the Clyde. No support for the land-raiders was forthcoming. I think Prince Charles was a buddy of Brocket’s son & of course his own gt uncle was as jack-booted as the Brocket’s.

    96. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      News Alerts

      The problem with news in Scotland is that it is split and asymmetrical. On one side the traditional and broadcast media, and on the other alternative online plus National.

      Yes, we need pro Indy tools for IndyRef2.

      However also, Scotland would benefit enormously with a news aggregator which merged genuine news from everywhere and tried to weed out the fake/propaganda stuff.

      Truth is, by being unbiased it would still work against the Unionist cause which relies on fake news and omission!

      I for one am not afraid of giving everyone equality in news delivery …. for a change!

    97. Fred says:

      Was anybody else daft enough to finish the piece by this Angela Haggerty person in the Sunday Herald?

    98. Glamaig says:

      the Brocket family –

      Such are the UK elite, born to rule over us…

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Nall-Cain,_3rd_Baron_Brocket

      I see they used to have a modest house in Ireland too

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carton_House

    99. Bob Mack says:

      @Socrates McSporran,

      The famine song a wind up? You clearly don’t know the words.

    100. ScottieDog says:

      O/T if anyone wants a quick Sunday primer on government fiances -esp relevant to an independent scotland, I recommend this article about the American WW2 war effort.

      It rather neatly encapsulates why the ‘government can’t afford it’ line is complete bollocks

    101. Lenny Hartley says:

      Heedtracker, if were not Independent or having voted for Independence in three years im selling up and am going somwhere warm possibly Catalonia. One thing for sure I aint remaining here with all the House Scots, i have had enough of them and their masters Colonial Missrule.

    102. ScottieDog says:

      @Andy-B the idea of corbynomics is admirable but it requires resources – that’s why corbyn is as committed to keeping scotland as the tories.

    103. Dan Huil says:

      Only ever seen one OO march – a few years ago. Just north of the river in Glasgow. The thing I remember most was the way the marchers were looking all around them all the time as if looking for violence to break out – as if it were to “make their day”. Weird.

    104. ScottieDog says:

      Oops forgot to post the link to the above…
      http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/08/mobilization-and-money.html

    105. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      63%. Where have I seen that figure recently in relation to something Scots don’t want?

      *shrugs*

    106. Habib Steele says:

      My opinion is that we must distinguish religious-political marches, such as the Orange and Hibernian marches, and political marches, which are Social Justice and/or protest marches, and religious processions. Political marches are necessary in a democracy (that said, the UK is not a democracy and is moving further and further away from democracy under the Brit Nat parties, especially the Tory party.). Public religious processions are part of the right to freedom of religion because where the public exercise of what is popularly called Religion is denied, the Religion of Secularism, whose faithful claim to be not-religious, is being imposed on the Nation.

      Who but the Oranges and Secularists would want to ban a Roman Catholic procession from St Theresa’s Roman Catholic Church in Newarthill to the Carfin Lourds Grotto? Would anyone want to ban a procession of Presbyterians from the High Kirk of Edinburgh to the Assembly Hall on the Mound? I think only those who wish to impose the Religion of Secularism on the nation.

      I believe that Orange and Hibernian processions promote hate, and also promote Northern Irish bigotry, should be banned.

    107. heedtracker says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      28 January, 2018 at 3:09 pm
      Heedtracker, if were not Independent or having voted for Independence in three years im selling up and am going somwhere warm possibly Catalonia

      No these days are gone too my friend.

      You can longer go as you please in Europe, one of the most incredible continents on this planet, we used to be able call home.

      And all thanks to our colonial imperial masters south of Berwick.

      You will now need papers, “show me your papers,” where ever you go, yes even here the Scotland region of the great teamGB zone, especially if you do not look like you’re from round these parts too.

      Don’t worry, massed ranks of beeb Scotland propaganda gimps will order us to rejoice in your new freedom to not roam, without papers.

      If you are ever in Berwick, a once huge English garrison town, dating all the way back to Roman England probably, there are lovely plaques along the Berwick seafront, cluster around a massive Elizabethan castle.

      Berwick plaques are contemporary sketches of the Scottish soldiers, sorry Jacobian soldiers, captured at Culloden, held in Berwick before trial, execution, slavery in the colonies etc, in merry olde London. The Scots look terrified, are all without trousers, mocked by the victors, heading for the rope, if they were lucky, colonial slave boats if they were not.

      Long way from our 21st century wasteland Highlands, owned currently by likes of Brenda, Paul Dacre of the Heil etc,

      On second thoughts, don’t go to Berwick to see these plaques. Prince Charlie got away though.

    108. Andy-B says:

      Meanwhile the Brexit corpse isn’t even cold yet, however the vultures are circling

      http://archive.is/yrgD2

    109. Mike d says:

      Andy-b 2.46pm. Nah Andy,not populist politics by jezza, just more bullshit for the plebs, who they(liebor)keep relying on to have goldfish memories.

    110. scottieDog says:

      Just had a horrible thought. What if the powers (or some of those) being repatriated from Brussels WERE devolved – but to the scotland office.
      Might explain the rise in numbers in mundell’s budget and staffing levels.

      The media would dress it up beautifully and might get folk to thinking actually we only really need a scotland office…

    111. Shinty says:

      O/T – Flaggate about to be discussed on Salmond on Sunday LBC

    112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 15:00,

      Absolutely. A trustworthy and truly neutral news service that could achieve widespread acceptance would do wonders.

      And whatever the result of IR2, at least everyone could agree afterwards that nothing was being sold on a false prospectus, as happened in IR1 and EUR.

      I would only slightly disagree about fake news. It’s good to know what’s going around, if only to be alert to the tactics being deployed, so better maybe to pass such things on but mark each such as “fake”/”tainted”.

      I guess the main problem in either case is that it requires a depth of resources to verify news stories, and at best what we’re now getting is superficial coverage on the cheap.

      And it isn’t even “at best”, in point of fact. What we have for news now is paid-for political promotion masquerading as the real thing.

      None of which can be dignified as “journalism”.

    113. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Dinna worry @scottieDog says at 3:57 pm

      “What if the powers (or some of those) being repatriated from Brussels WERE devolved – but to the scotland office.”

      Simply then they wouldn’t have been devolved to Scotland.

      They would have been retained by WM and administered by a WM Govt Department (albeit it one based in Scotland).

      Only WM giving ALL the 111 powers coming back from the EU to Holyrood means they have been devolved.

    114. heedtracker says:

      “What if the powers (or some of those) being repatriated from Brussels WERE devolved – but to the scotland office.”

      Rumors are rife though online, as to what and or why, Fluffie is building up a huge new Scotland office. Ofcourse there is nothing msm gimp wise on any of it.

    115. Lenny Hartley says:

      Heedtracter, i hope to have a getout clause, my Irish Grannie, although discovered last night that its almost impossible to get historical Iris records, fingers crossed.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      I think the question is strongly biased as well as being too long, it’s political in its nature, mentions far right and dangerous provocative and seeks out a “ban them” answer therefore.

      I’d be a don’t ban, I dislike leading questions, for that reason alone, but also because I don’t witness them where I am so would have no opinion as to their “dangerous and provocative” or “peaceful and joyous” nature.

    117. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker16:10,

      Not even that. The Scotland Office is very firmly located, both in body and spirit, in London.

      (Maybe the UKGov could do another historical back-flip of the kind they seem to love and revert it to “The Colonial Office”. For that is what it undoubtedly is.)

    118. galamcennalath says:

      scottieDog says:

      What if the powers (or some of those) being repatriated from Brussels … to the scotland office … explain the rise in numbers in mundell’s budget and staffing levels.

      I think that’s quite likely what could happen.

      It wouldn’t be devolution though, because the Scotland Office is the department of a WM gov minister. However, the loyal media could paint it differently ie still ‘coming’ to Scotland.

      The Scotland Office would take the agricultural and fisheries powers coming from the EU. Those sectors wouldn’t oppose that.

      Their next step would be to ‘rationalise’ by taking remaining agri and fishery responsibilities away from Holyrood. They might even throw a few scraps of something else Hoyrood’s way and have their media declare it a ‘fair’ swap.

      Holyrood was never meant to allow Scotland to diverge from rUK. In fact it was intended to give a veneer of responsibility but Unionist parties would sing from the same UK wide song sheet. In that respect devolution has failed the UK establishment and they will want Scotland brought back into line one way or another!

    119. heedtracker says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      28 January, 2018 at 4:13 pm
      Heedtracter, i hope to have a getout clause, my Irish Grannie, although discovered last night that its almost impossible to get historical Iris records, fingers crossed.

      That’s true. Its dead easy to get Irish citizenship if you have any Irish parent, grand parent, great grand parent, living or deceased.

      200 euros and that’s you, good to go, literally. It also make emigrating to the USA much much easier too. Infinitely easier that it is if youre a UK citizens because we have such a “special” relationship with the US. Sick to death of hearing beeb gimps in particular chunter on and on about how much the US really weally wuvs this shithead union.

      http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/citizenship-gparents-born-ireland

      We’ll be left to endure their awful beeb Scotland gimp network, boom tish OO freakshow, and lots and lots of football fans trying to kill each every other rainy Glasgow Saturday afternoon.

    120. Street Andrew says:

      I think the remark that English folk don’t understand the passion that surrounds Orange Lodge marches is probably true. (or at least close to the mark)

      I never knew anything about this ‘nonsense’ until I spent some time in Liverpool where such parades were still enthusiastically supported. (I was there mid to late 70s. I don’t know how they go down now)

      To the apolitical, not particularly religious outsider they ere jolly, and free band performance. A bit of music and spectacle.

      It’s easy for me to say people shouldn’t get annoyed by them (ignore them and they’ll go away sort of thing) but I have no skin in the game. Don’t give a toss. I regard both factions as being rabid and as bad as each other, but it’s easy for me to dismiss them as of no consequence.

      I have a similar attitude to military bands – I don’t like what they represent but I like the music and spectacle.

      I’m sorry if my indifference offends anybody.

      I would hate for the banning of them to impact on the right of other groups to congregate and parade in public places.

    121. Andy-B says:

      STV news reporting that the Justice secretary, Michael Matheson must go.

      STV then allowed Labour MSP Daniel Johnson to air his views, Johnson finished by calling for Matheson to resign immediately.

    122. yesindyref2 says:

      Simple really, ban marches, they’ll turn into demonstrations. Ban demonstrations? Oh dear.

      Restrict their frequency and duration, yes.

    123. galamcennalath says:

      Andy-B says:

      Michael Matheson must go.

      My reaction to this story is same as every other Yoon instigated story, every day of every week – it’s probably baseless bullshit. I make my judgement based on how previous allegations worked out, eventually debunked as baseless bullshit.

      The SNP aren’t perfect nor infallible. However how much fake SNPBad nonsense have we had, and how much genuine challenges to abuse of power have we actually had?

      This story might have some truth. Who knows? How could we tell?

      The Yoons cry wolf every day. I’ll believe in feral wolves when I see one up close!

    124. ScottieDog says:

      @JWT
      “Simply then they wouldn’t have been devolved to Scotland.

      They would have been retained by WM and administered by a WM Govt Department (albeit it one based in Scotland).”

      Of course we all know that but most folk can’t even distinguish what is reserved at the moment and that is very much reinforced by the BBC etc – just look at the last Holyrood and WM elections and how they were covered.

      The waters are muddied and I believe it will be very easy for the msm to declare the return of powers as promised to scotland – albeit to fluffy.

      Any contention by SNP will be labelled ‘grievance politics’ and sadly SLAB won’t life a finger to help.

      Going further, commenters might comment on the ‘efficiency’ of the scotland office in comparison to the ‘expensive beaurocracy’ of Holyrood. Why should the scottish tax payer fork out for all that? I can just hear it.

      Yes this is devil’s advocate stuff but I sincerely hope scotgov have it in mind.

    125. ronnie anderson says:

      http://archive.is/U1dkT SDL muppets.

    126. Clootie says:

      @heetracker – Irish Citizenship

      It only goes to grand-parent UNLESS the child of the grand-parent obtained citizenship BEFORE they had children.
      My wife and I have both undertaken the Citizen process but our children cannot do so. (They could have done if either of us had done it before their birth.)

    127. Clootie says:

      Irish Citizenship

      Further info – The arrangement was part of the “Good Friday Agreement” – Those in Northern Ireland could choose between UK or Irish Citizenship and any resulting Dual Nationality would be respected by both Nations. Therefore ALL UK Northern Ireland Citizens are recognised as being Irish Citizens.

      In my case having a Northern Irish Grandmother entitled me to Irish Citizenship.

    128. AlbertaScot says:

      They’re everywhere!! They’re everywhere!!!

      So I turned out for my local Remembrance Day ceremony in November.

      A short service at Holy Trinity Anglican put on by the local horse soldier regiment – The South Alberta Light Horse.

      Then a ragged march falls in behind the troopers to the cenotaph behind the old armoury for the Last Post and the piper.

      There’s a 21-gunner going on at the legislature grounds at the same time. Nice touch.

      And who should join in the festivities but a bunch of sash wearers.

      My buddy, Robin the engineer, who comes from Belfast asks what the hell are they doing here?

      He thought he’d left all that horsesh!t behind.

      The OOers laid a wreath.

      Just another charity group honouring our war dead, I guess.

    129. Clootie says:

      Irish Citizenship

      Clarification on my previous note. Do not confuse Citizenship with Passport held. Although all NI citizens are considered Irish citizens by birth they must still apply for an Irish passport to achieve EU rights.

    130. Roger Hyam says:

      Bit of a loaded question there. “Religion” doesn’t just mean provocative Christians. I run Buddhist peace marches where we walk slowly in silence and spread love. We might join in with the Quakers and Unitarians. A lovelier bunch of accepting liberals you couldn’t find and an important part of Scottish society.

      Also what about this pagan festival in Edinburgh each year

      https://www.edinburghguide.com/events/edinburghshogmanaytorchlightprocession

      or Up Helly Aa in Shetland

      http://www.uphellyaa.org/

      Baby bathwater throw why don’t you.

    131. heedtracker says:

      Clootie says:
      28 January, 2018 at 5:11 pm
      @heetracker – Irish Citizenship

      Got it. Well the Irish had to draw a line somewhere. But if you do get Irish citizenship, because of your Irish grandparents, surely your children can then also apply for it too, once you are an Irish citizen?

    132. Andy-B says:

      Now the Tories have jumped on the Michael Matheson must go bandwagon.

      http://archive.is/VZEjG

    133. Clootie says:

      Heedtracker@6:15pm

      …afraid not. You must have a direct line to a birth in Ireland via a parent. It is also accepted if you obtained citizen ship before their birth.
      OR
      Via residency rule – circa 4 years ( around 1000quid plus for application)

    134. HandandShrimp says:

      The Tories are desperate for a Minister to resign, they have taken a remarkable number of hits on that front themselves and I am sure they would welcome some distraction from their own many and wondrous woes.

      If Matheson had not queried the wisdom of Gormley returning to duty the SPA might well have jumped the gun. I am quite sure that if he had returned to duty and the fourth complaint then made and Gormley had to step aside again the press and opposition would have made much more of the situation. Matheson is right to be concerned by what has taken place and right to ask questions and offer advice.

      The web of bullying accusations at the top of Police Scotland and the SPA may be overblown. One can be accused of bullying by simply asking someone to do a day’s work these days. On the other hand there may be some substance to the accusations and counter accusations and that the top few people need to move on and new brooms brought in to sweep things clean.

      None of this will stop the opposition’s desperation. In 11 years of being in office the SNP have lost incredibly few Ministers. The Tories can match those 11 years in one of their bad weeks (and they have had a few of those). People come and go from the Labour ranks to the point that few know who their shadow cabinet is any more.

      It just has a couple of weeks since they were demanding that Humza resign because the weather had the temerity to snow. No one demanded Grayling resign because the English airports shut causing travel havoc when it snowed. No real surprise there. Hypocrisy is the underpinning of British politics.

    135. Robert Kerr says:

      My Irish citizenship is problematic.

      My father’s father was born in Ulster but missed the 1871 census by a few months being still in the womb. He is not in the 1881 and 1891 censuses since the records were destroyed in Dublin during the “battle of the four courts”. He is in the 1901 census as part of a ships complement. The “head of household” was the ship’s Master. In the 1911 census he was here in Scotland. He was dead by the 1921 census by Spanish Influenza 1919 pandemic.

      My father’s mother was born in the USA and returned to Scotland at the age of seven.

      Maybe I can obtain a copy of their marriage certificate?

      Else I can give effort to iRev2 and have Scottish citizenship.

    136. Gary45% says:

      Tool Britannia.
      Sums it up really.

    137. stu mac says:

      People should be allowed to match if they have a valid reason for doing so. We wouldn’t want political marches banned or those demonstrating against some perceived injustice. However you don’t get folk marching every week for months in lots of different towns for the same thing. They shouldn’t be banned but they should be limited to one march a year in a few of the biggest towns.

      AND close attention should be paid to those joining them and any stuff like the “famine song” and drunken and loutish behaviour should be punished – and the order itself fined for them, with excuses about “hangers on” not being accepted. Those hangers on wouldn’t be there if the march wasn’t on. Persistent trouble should lead to marches being banned.

      And of course we know all about the football club which as someone once said is “an iron lung for bigotry in Scotland”. No politicians, including those in the SNP government, dares challenge that club (Salmond called it an important institution). Having police arrest a few individuals is a waste of time when we know the biggest amount of it by a massive degree comes from one place and punishing that club itself and not a few of their supporters is the only thing that will affect it.

      I do actually support OBFA but it needs a lot of improvement and it needs to punish clubs – not clubs where one or two individuals spout bigoted poison but where a whole stand can be heard singing “We hate Catholics” (and that literally is a line from their latest number). BTW the punishment should be for the club the bigots support not the club where it takes place.

      BBC, Sky and BT when they cover Scottish games deliberately filter out the sound of certain chants when one particular club is on screen so many folk here might not realise how bad it gets sometimes. But of course there is a general acceptance in the MSM that it should all be played down. There’s the once in a blue moon article purporting to condemn it but it never goes as far as demanding real and effective action.

    138. stu mac says:

      To edit my last post, reconsidering a point. I think if one or two supporters bawl out bigoted and nasty stuff maybe their club should be punished too – but relative to the numbers who did it and whether they had reasonable precautions in place. What I really meant is any laws or rules should be careful not to punish clubs for stuff that may be a bit off-colour but is by no means bigoted or racist. And BTW again – we know that the reason why no real action is taken is because only one club would suffer the heaviest punishment.

    139. scav says:

      Slightly worried that between 20 and 30% (using the usual margin of 5% people not even reading the question properly) are submissive authoritarians who want the government to be able to outlaw any kind of opposition or demonstration including CND, pride, pro-democracy, environmental, anti-war or other marches.

      We really need a constitution as a kind of child-proof cap on the crazy pills to stop these morons hurting themselves.

    140. Liz g says:

      I’m pretty sure that their right to march is protected by Europe.
      But I am not sure if it’s from the EU or the ECHR.
      Either way we will likely be staying in both….so ironically they will be protected from a ban,in an Independent Scotland.

    141. JLT says:

      Absolutely agree with Ken500 (very first post) on his very first sentence. Folk are fed up with the sectarian nonsense that blights our game. It’s not just the Old Firm since elements of it can be found at Hibs and Hearts.

      I for one, used to love going to home games at Livingston FC (when they had a very good team in the early noughties), but when my mates debated about going to Ibrox or Parkhead, it just filled me with a sense of dread and dismay (especially going to Ibrox).

      I’ve known people who have completely bought into the idea of the Orange Order and being a True Blue and Brit to heart – guys who got 9 ‘O’ grades and 5 Highers when at school …and yet, believe in this bigoted dreadful nonsense that anyone north of Perth was Catholic and that Rome seeks every insidious opportunity to turn Scotland back to the days of the late medieval period. It’s just paranoia on a an absolute bonkers scale!! Most folk in Scotland don’t give two hoots for religion. The statistics for all the religious churches in Scotland are damning in their revelation, since each passing decade shows the numbers tumbling even further.

      I have no doubt that if it could, the Scottish Government would ban all Orange and Republican marches on the basis that they provoke religious animosity. But in doing so would lead to crocodile tears from the media as the shrieked in pretend indignation and false moral ground that the SNP is determined to ban the right to express religious freedom and even take away people’s rights.

      The only way this nonsense will ever get barred is if Scotland becomes independent. Once that happens, the iron fist in a velvet glove can be used properly since Unionists could no longer whip up the London media for support, and that once they realise that they truly are on their own with no support from any of the old British stalwarts of the past, jail would await those who tried to push a religious agenda based on hatred.

    142. Dickie says:

      Story is there was once a Chinese restaurant in Larkhall called The Orange Wok

    143. Richie Bradley says:

      amazing that Anas Sarwar gets all the media attention because someone called him names. Even during his appearance on several tv shows, he complained relentlessly about Scotland’s racism shame… Anas, I am a West of Scotland Roman Catholic and have had to tolarate this abuse for years. Even recently, the BBC used my licence fee to fund a program glamorising the Orange Order and their ‘culture’. This has to stop. Scotland’s population is multi-racial, multi-religion, yet it seems to be acceptable to insult Catholics regularly, yet you are demonised and criticised for even the remotest of swipes against Muslims or Jews. We have to get together to stop this Orange Order… as was mentioned earlier, let them march on private land at their own cost.



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