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Heroes of the working class

Posted on January 27, 2018 by

We’re a bit annoyed about this, because we were going to give the Absolute Fanny Of The Week award to Anas Sarwar every week as a joke, but now it seems we can’t.

So that’s a professional journalist who’s studied the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act, or OBFA, so intently and diligently that he keeps calling it “OBAF” instead. But that’s not the stupidest of it.

If the OBFA is indeed repealed, it will have precisely nothing to do with any “working class organising” against it. It’ll be repealed by an unholy alliance of millionaire Tory landowners like Sir Edward Brian Stanford Mountain, 4th Baronet.

It’ll be repealed by aristocrat Tory MSP Alexander Burnett, who’s worth an estimated £40m and now faces a ban on tabling questions at Holyrood for failing to declare that all the ones he asked were about his own business interests.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MP Bill Bowman, who owns a £600,000 shares portfolio and dumped £30,000 worth of shares in a tobacco company when he became an MSP by inheriting Alex Johnstone’s list seat after his death.

It’ll be repealed by the Oxford-educated former Financial Times journalist and now wealthy Orkney farmer and Brexit enthusiast Jamie Halcro-Johnston.

It’ll be repealed by the privately-educated Tory MSP and philosophy master Maurice Golden, even though he’s only three inches tall.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Jamie Greene, assuming he can find someone to tell him what “repeal” means three or four times.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Rachael Hamilton, who grew up on the family farm in Herefordshire and is so posh she calls the Queen “new money”.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Finlay Carson, who hired his own company to build his MSP website for £1200 and then claimed it back on expenses.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Major Maurice Charles Steuart-Corry, who proudly holds the Efficiency Decoration with two clasps from the British Army.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Murdo Fraser, who has pocketed around £1 million from the Scottish taxpayer despite losing every election he’s ever contested.

And by his Rangers* buddy, Tory MSP Professor Adam “WATP” Tomkins.

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Miles Briggs (seen here apparently having just had his arse wiped for him by Ruth Davidson, with unpleasant results).

It’ll be repealed by Tory MSP Jeremy Balfour, the sort of man who wears a shirt and tie with a body-warmer when he goes down to the harbour.

We could do these all day, to be honest, but you probably get the idea. These are the people who will remove the OBFA from the statute books, and we’re going to go out on a limb and say that they’re doing it to score a cheap victory over the SNP, not to stand up for the poor downtrodden working classes.

We can say that with some confidence because we already know what working-class people think about the Act – they support it by a large margin. The last time we had Panelbase conduct a poll on the subject (less than a year ago), the working-class C2DE demographic opposed repealing the act by a margin of more than 2:1.

As did football fans, by a crushing margin of 63% to 37% (minus don’t-knows), including a hefty 22-point majority of Mr O’Hare’s fellow Celtic supporters.

And, of course, literally every other demographic group in Scotland.

Opponents of the Act didn’t win any arguments. Nobody has ever identified a single victim of a gross OBFA injustice. They didn’t win over popular support by “organising” anything. They persuaded nobody to their point of view – the opposition parties have opposed OBFA bitterly all along. The public largely thinks those trying to get the Act repealed are whiny bigot scumbags who just want to wind up other bigot scumbags.

The people who will have brought about OBFA’s likely repeal are wealthy Tory voters in the Borders and the North-East who elected just enough millionaire poshos to tip the balance, assisted by the overwhelmingly middle-class occupation of journalism, in which (disgracefully) not one Scottish hack has spoken up for the public’s view on this subject in the six years since the Act was passed.

But wait! The Act will be getting repealed by a bunch of middle-class millionaire public schoolboys from the Labour Party too. Which means that after a last-minute rally and a controversial decision from the Television Match Official, the judging panel announces that this week’s Absolute Fanny Of The Week is… Anas Sarwar!

Congratulations again, Anas.

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    164 to “Heroes of the working class”

    1. Donald anderson says:

      Lab- Con solidarity.

    2. Macart says:

      Great point and well made.

      Politics as it is practised and the public, as usual, ignored in favour of agenda.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      Working class don’t you know. Those jolly chaps need to exercise their working class foibles somewhere. Whispers( or else they may focus on us too much).

    4. Kevin Kennedy says:

      A worthy winner yet again in a highly competitive arena.

    5. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Getting the move to repeal OBFA through Holyrood had nothing whatsoever to do with the Law, it was a cynical ploy to give the SNP a kicking.

      Sure, James Kelly perhaps hope being so-prominently involved will get him closer to the post seats at Sellik Park, while Mad Murdo probably has the same hopes for Castle Greyskull, but, mainly, it’s another case of “SNP Bad!!!”

      Working class my arse, the only person I can think of who ever lost his job thanks to offensive behaviour at football – or to be precise, at a post cup final victory celebration was that well-known working class hero Donald Findlay QC.

    6. HandandShrimp says:

      A handful of loons wistful for the days when you could stick it to the “other side” of the sectarian divide without fear of having ones collar felt have agitated for repeal from day one. Almost everyone else in the country could not care less.

      However, a whole pile of MPs desperate to stick it to the SNP have finally found an issue they can coalescence around and will repeal the act regardless of whether they agree or disagree with it.

      As an issue it is minor and I can’t see the SNP losing much sleep over it. However as I said last time, the opposition parties now own sectarianism and they had better pray that the loony toons that the act was designed to put a lid on behave.

      This has absolutely sweet FA to do with the working class unless one’s definition of being working class is to be a rabid bigot. For middle class journalists perhaps that is the case.

    7. Spartan666 says:

      I was at primary school with Maurice Golden. He was a decent kid back then, but has clearly turned into a right knob since. Yep, that’ll be the private education of Dundee High School then!

    8. DaveyM says:

      Scotland doesn’t have ‘public’ schools, Stu. They’re private schools here.

    9. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Where did the Greens’ votes go?

      That is where I keep my anger and contempt. Nursing it to keep it warm.

    10. Northern Islander says:

      Mr Halcro Johnston is ‘Oxford-educated’ only in the sense that he attended an educational establishment in the vicinity of Oxford. He is not an alumnus of Oxford University, although that impression may have been created.

    11. Richard Hunter says:

      Shouldn’t you just change it to the ‘Anas Sarwar of the week’ award?

    12. Gary45% says:

      You will find more fannies in the male section of the Yoon parties than in a Bangkok brothel.

    13. 1AlanM says:

      How can the SNP be defeated in parliament when the BritNats claim that Scotland is a one party state and the SNP a dictatorship?

    14. gordoz says:

      Balloons gonna ballon!

    15. Proud Cybernat says:

      If the Greens allow this through they are SOOOOO SCREWED!!! Never again will they get a vote from me. NOT EVER!!!

      You listening, Pat?

    16. Gary45% says:

      Just noticed Eddie Mountain has a nice wee office in the centre of Inverness just off Barron Taylor Street for any locals wishing to pay him a courtesy visit regarding the state of the “onion”. I am sure his vast knowledge of Scottish politics will blow your mind.
      Or probably not.

    17. RogueCoder says:

      Scottish Labour, doing the Tories bidding once again. All in their quest to get rid of the hated EssEnnPee so that they can get their fat, lazy ineffective snouts back into the trough.

    18. thingy says:

      Once repealed, I do wonder what form the girning will take when the polis start lifting them under the pre-existing legislation they’ve been whining about these last few years.

    19. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, they have a right to be politicians, but why would anyone vote for them?

    20. winifred mccartney says:

      This repeal of OBFA is just a means to allow snp hating labour and tories to defeat the govt. Labour are just the red tories and snp haters like the tories. Both britnats.

      But what about the Greens, when racist bigots start offending them I for one will not be interested in their cries.

      I say again take the word ‘football’ out of the Act and use it to bring the law down on racist bigots who are elected to public office and those like Ruth Davidson and Jim Murphy who do their best to incite bad behaviour and even encourage it.

    21. Arbroath1320 says:

      Bugger (the Panda) says:
      27 January, 2018 at 2:01 pm
      Where did the Greens’ votes go?

      That is where I keep my anger and contempt. Nursing it to keep it warm.

      I think this may help you out BtP. 😉

      https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/101639850456727702167/6515737302573533298?authkey=CI2sjrr0qob-wQE

      Now that the racists, bigots and sectarians have all colluded together and voted to repeal the OBFA perhaps it is time to look for another route to fight offensive behaviour. I think I read on twitter yesterday someone suggesting that it was a U.E.F.A. “proposal” that member associations should install Strict Liability rules. Needless to say the gutless spineless S.F.A. has refused to do so. With the OBFA now on the verge of being repealed perhaps now is the time for the people of Scotland and the Scottish government to get together and drag the S.F.A. over hot coals backwards to force them to instigate Strict Liability.

      In my view every team whose supporters are found via T.V., radio or physical evidence (video shot by other fans for example) to exhibit sectarian, bigoted or racist behaviour should be docked 6 points per game evidence is produced. I am suggesting 6 points mainly because the teams that are most likely to be found with the racist, bigoted or sectarian supporters will, in most cases, probably end up winning the match so in my view a 3 point deduction is not good enough.

      Eventually after their teams lose enough points even the most ardent braindeid racist, sectarian or bigoted supporter will come to realise that something is wrong and even they might, just might mind you, manage to raise their draggy knuckles off the ground long enough to find out that two plus two really does equal four.

    22. Scottish Steve says:

      These Tory MSP wankers would bathe themselves in bleach if they came into contact with any of the working class they claim to represent. How anybody can think these arseholes represent them is beyond me.

    23. Ian Brotherhood says:

      What a shower.

      It’s an atrocity exhibition.

      🙁

    24. Dr Jim says:

      This madness is also supported by none other than Andrew Tickell the Sheldon Cooper of the legal world, upholder of all things buffoonery like in that profession and supporter of Independence for Scotland but who also believes there are no poor people in Scotland

      I’ll just throw my scarf over my shoulder and decide whether or not to wear my cravaat today whilst I make sure I blink at the right moment to avoid seeing people on the pavement today looking not wealthy

      The repeal of this act as the opposers would say may not legally alter a defence against bad behaviour at football but what it will do is send a clear message to the morons who practice this bad behaviour that they can carry on doing it and indeed escalate their bad behaviour because a bunch of politicians who couldn’t be bothered helping to rephrase amend or alter the legislation to make it better, given that their complaint originally was that it wasn’t good enough

      These politicians and their pals just wanted to beat the SNP for the sake of it
      So perhaps everyone who voted for these tragic excuses as their representatives in Holyrood next time some offensive behaviour slaps them in the face might think again as to why they voted for these people

      I have never liked Partick Harvie or the Greens because I have never believed for one second they are what they claim to be and it looks like I’ve been proven right again by their behaviour in this sorry saga
      If Patrick Harvie and his Greens can’t make their mind up if they’re Labour or Communists maybe their decent minded supporters can help them with this

      Scotland will not begin to heal or solve its sectarian problems when politicians can’t solve theirs for the sake of a vote

      SNP Scotlands party supporting and comprising of all faiths and none

    25. Bob Mack says:

      Did EUFA not recently fine Celtic for their supporters merely showing Palestinian flags ? Now EUFA set the rules that supporters decided to flaunt, because they knew this was not allowed. I think the points deduction idea is a very good one .

      Fans do make football, but there have to be limits within that relationship. No club should entertain bigotry of any description1

      Self policing would be great,but clearly there is always a vocal MINORITY, who think they have more support than they actually do, to act in any way they see fit.

    26. Socrates MacSporran says:

      DaveyM

      Scotland once had public schools, but, they were the ordinary schools to which the public went.

      A friend of mine entered the Royal Navy, aged 15 as a boy sailor. When he went for his interview he identified his place of education as: “Catrine Publc School”, which had the officer who was interviewing him thinking of putting him forward for officer training at Dartmouth.

      However, he could not find “Catrine Public School” in the list of Headmasters Conference places of education, so my friend had to start in the foc’sle with the other plebs.

      He eventually got his commission, when the RN gave them to some senior CPOs, and retired as a full commander, with an OBE. If they had never found out the truth about his school, he might well have ended-up as an Armiral.

    27. robert alexander harrison says:

      So the greens gave there vote to the English trio that’s the only way this could of won as abstaining would of meant the snp would of defeated them.

    28. Indy2 says:

      I am absolutely shocked that Patrick Harvey voted for the repeal of this Bill.

      He must give a statement to clarify his thinking on this.

      We need to hear it directly from Harvey.

      The Greens have let everybody down.

      Why Patrick, why???

    29. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I must protest at the blatant class discrimination which has seen Anas Sarwar pip Baron Foulkes of Cumnock for the Absolute Fanny of the Week award.

      What does Noble Lord have to do to win it?

    30. Clydebuilt says:

      All the Greens have done is give the BBC the opportunity to broadcast “SNP defeated in the parliament”

      And for what gain . . .

      0% of their vote would be affected by OBFA.

      Why did they do it?

    31. Indy2 says:

      Came across this Petition:

      The SFA must adopt UEFA’s Strict Liability rules, given the imminent repeal of the OBFA.

      https://www.change.org/p/the-scottish-government-the-sfa-must-adopt-uefa-s-strict-liability-rules-given-the-imminent-repeal-of-the-obfa-7da1d545-95cf-491e-a0f3-88a0cb08ac8a

    32. jfngw says:

      Not sure what the Greens think they will get from this vote. They will likely lose the second vote that some SNP voters were duped into giving them and the likelyhood of football fans who wanted this legislation overturned turning to the Greens is wishful thinking of the most optimistic kind. Of course Mr Harvie will probably keep his seat and I suspect that’s good enough for him.

    33. PhilM says:

      The photo of Steuart-Corry and Kim Ruth-Un looks like One Man and His Dog in an alternative universe.

    34. Capella says:

      The Greens have embarrassed themselves with this one. I think opposition to OBFA was in their manifesto on civil liberties grounds.

      Perhaps the next stage is for the SNP to bring an amendment to Holyrood which The Greens can support. It’s what “The People” want. Polls confirm it.

    35. Muscleguy says:

      @Dr Jim
      Andrew Tickle does not, on balance support the repeal of the Act, he thinks it can be saved, with amendments.

      I follow his twitter, blog and his writings. It would seem you do not. I recall I also read his submission on the bill which you seem not to have done.

      Yours Dr Muscleguy.

    36. Ken500 says:

      They changed the electoral system to let this motley crew in. The 3rd rate rejects were dragged off the street to stand. Racists and bigots exhibits. So little are the members. No wonder. An embarassment.

    37. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Arbroath1320 @ 14:40,

      I do tend to agree. If the likes of James Kelly, Willie Rennie and Patrick Harvey are genuine about easing the heavy hand of the Law upon the sectarian bigots, we’ll now see them spring into action, follow your good advice and campaign hard for the SFA to face up to its prime responsibility over the issue now that it’s back in the front line again.

      They will, won’t they? It’s about more than inferiority-complex driven grandstanding and cheap political point-scoring, isn’t it? =cough=

      My only reservation over your sensible suggestion is that points-docking would likely not address the issue of sectarian-related misbehaviour outwith the stadium, which might in fact increase in reaction to the self-imposed repression within it.

      But it would nevertheless be a welcome start.

    38. galamcennalath says:

      It really seems a mystery how these über poshos get elected. They come from a tiny privileged minority. I reckon most Scots will never even have encountered people like this!

      We are not even talking about Scotland’s single figure percentage of privately educated. Nor of the professional or business classes. We are talking about a tiny fringe of elites. Yet the Conservative party seems to be dominated by them, and most shockingly of all, gets around of a quarter of overall voting.

      Most Tory voters will not be privately educated, nor wealthy. If they own property, in most cases it will be a modest family home. So what in Hell’s Name are they doing being represented in parliament by the rich and privileged?

      The reason, of course, is that the Tories pretend to be far more ‘of the people’ than they actually are. In private they must sneer at the fools who vote for them. Also, the Holyrood lists system doesn’t allow voters to look closely as they would with actual constituency candidates.

      Then add to that the BritNat / OO types the Tories have been hoovering up recently.

      Still, overall the Tories are a minority. They always will be. Perhaps wrath is better targeted at other parties who seem willing share cause with them. We know Labour and LibDems have no qualms about suppin wi Tories. But what about the Greens, though? What are they playing at?

    39. Ken500 says:

      It hasn’t been repealed yet. There are changes to it. Some flapping about. No wonder the terraces are empty. Perverts and crooks ruining the industry. Not sporting by any chance.

    40. katherine hamilton says:

      I e-mailed Harvie on his Parliamentary e-mail last week asking why he had done this and,yes, rebuking him for not understanding what he was dealing with.
      No reply.
      Nuff said.

    41. Dr Jim says:

      @Muscleguy

      In evidence to the committee Andrew Tickell said he did not support the act, he claimed it was bad law and as there are no amendments being made by those supporting repeal and as he is not in a position to amend the law himself as he very well knows the result is the law will be repealed with his legal minded approval, unless somebody backtracks and does that

      His advice on this was quoted in the debate in the chamber
      And he has also stated this publicly on BBC Reporting Scotland

      You can’t say I support something but I don’t at the same time when you have no power to change it, you either stay out of the argument or pick a side that may not be 100% your own for the greater good

      He chose to do what all lawyers like to do and that’s criticise everyone and adopt a side that doesn’t exist in order to make themselves appear right to everyone

    42. Andrew Morton says:

      Sorry Stu, you’re completely wrong on this one. Absolute fannies of the week are Patrick Harvie, Andy Wightman and the rest of the Greens to whom so many of us gave our list votes. I was under the impression that the two named people were intelligent human beings with a moral compass.

      I could have been wrong.

    43. Robert Louis says:

      RED Tories/Blue Tories, hand in hand as ever. No difference. None.

      In my opinion James Kelly of the labour party scottishy branch office, introduced this repeal of the popular obscene behaviour at football act, because he is thick and hates the SNP. No other reason.

      The tories support its repeal, partly since their party in Scotland is now populated with a plethora of overt millionaire British Nationalist bigots, racists and homophobes, and some of them like to make stupid, divisive sectarian tweets (as documented above).

      The greens support its repeal, because, waffle, waffle, speech entitlement, waffle, theoretically, waffle, philosophically, waffle waffle, divorced from reality, clueless, talking unadulterated pseudo intellectual sh*te Mr Harvie, waffle, waffle.

    44. Robert Louis says:

      Proud cybernat at 212pm

      Wholly agree, regarding the shameful greens. I really cannot understand how repeal of this, fits squarely into progressive politics. It is absurdity upon absurdity.

      Disappointed in Patrick Harvie, confused at his stance. Determined never to vote green again (I have done so on occasion at council level). I simply cannot see ANY kind of gain for the Greens by doing this. None. It is a lose lose scenario for Patrick.

      Indy supporters won’t forget at the next election.

    45. Patrick Harvie, arm in arm with Edward Mountain, defending the rights of the working man.
      Patrick, seek help.

    46. Morgatron says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 2.45pm
      Love the JD title connotation.
      Hopefully after next election Tank commander is left in Isolation. I do really despise these shower of Tory shits but Anus Sarwar indeed a total ladies bottom.

    47. Arbroath1320 says:

      Just in case anyone was wondering how long it would take before the ugly face of sectarianism, bigotry or racism raised its ugly head I’ll just leave this here.

      http://archive.is/bcU0H

      I along with Stu have already tweeted Kelly “congratulating” him on the speed of return of sectarianism, racism and bigotry to Scottish daily life!

    48. Marie Clark says:

      I seem to recall Patrick Harvie as saying what he was voting for was freedom of speech. Go Figure, as our American cousins would say. Bad call Patrick, I think that the greens might come to regret it.

      What is laughingly known as the opposition parties should have done, if they felt it was bad law, was come forward with their own amendments. It could then have been debated and amended where necessary. But then that was not the point, was it? No the point was to give the SNP government a bloody nose.

      I would have to hang my head in shame at voting for anything that James Kelly was proposing. Fanny of the week disnae cover that clown. Fanny o’ the century wid be mair like it. Oh aye, and afore we forget, SNP BAAAAAAD.

    49. Duncan says:

      ‘The public largely thinks those trying to get the Act repealed are whiny bigot scumbags who just want to wind up other bigot scumbags.’

      This as may be, but the truth is more sinister. Keeping Scotland divided on sectarian grounds is the age old tactic of divide and conquer that has worked so well to make Scotland doubt itself, and maintain control of its resources.

      The good news, I suppose, is that they haven’t changed their strategy much

    50. HandandShrimp says:

      From a purely political standpoint, the Greens are proponents of civil liberty and free speech, left wing libertarians so to speak and the Lib Dems are right wing libertarians. No real surprise either oppose the act given their leanings.

      On the other, the Tories and Labour are forever delineating what you can and can’t say and their track record on civil liberties generally is not strong. It is the sight of Neil Findlay and James Kelly dancing through the lobbies (metaphorically) with Edward Mountain that gives me the dry boak.

    51. Tom Platt says:

      The petition promoted further up the thread by Indy2 needs our fullest possible support IMO. Aussie Rules Football is a much rougher and more physical game than what the Aussies refer to as “Soccer” yet Aussie Rules football matches often involve picnic activities for the whole family. SFA needs to change its approach so that Celtic v Rangers matches, and the rest of the SFA programme, are family occasions if families so decide.
      Here’s the petition again:-

      https://www.change.org/p/the-scottish-government-the-sfa-must-adopt-uefa-s-strict-liability-rules-given-the-imminent-repeal-of-the-obfa-7da1d545-95cf-491e-a0f3-88a0cb08ac8a?recruiter=59264043&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_content=nafta_fb_canonical_share_3%3Afake_control

    52. Petra says:

      Indy2 at 2:53pm …. “Why Patrick, why???”

      As far as I can make out, from what I’ve read online, Patrick Harvie and his party members backed the Tories, Labour and Lib-dems because he felt that the OBFA Act suppressed Freedom of Speech. You know the ‘speech’ that’s contained in sectarian songs.

      IF this is true, I wonder how he would view masses of people singing nasty, aggressive songs about the LGBT community in public places? Songs that led to individuals being put in a state of fear and alarm, injured or even killed.

      More than anything I’m totally surprised at Andy Wightman, whom I’ve always felt should have been the Green leader in Scotland.

      However before jumping in and condemning them it would help if they’d outline their reasons for making their decision to clarify the situation. I’m not looking for a long convoluted report. A wee list of reasons would do. Anyone from the Green Party care to explain?

    53. Andy-B says:

      It’s frightening to think that, the SNP government could put forward some very good ideas to help the people of Scotland. Yet those ideas might never see the light of day, simply because unionist MSP’s would rather do down the SNP, than see the public get a helping hand.

      I ask you what kind of people, would hurt a whole nation of his/her fellow country men/women just to get one over a political opposition.

      As you say the repealing of the OBFA, will not affect those champagne quaffing chinless wonders. It will however hurt the working class.

      Take a bow Mr Kelly, you useful idiot.

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 16:28,

      It seems that if yer hate speech/song comes from long enough back in antiquity, it has somehow been rendered neutral and must be defended as “cultural heritage”. It’s easy to see where Kelly & Co. are coming from, the sanctimonious hypocritical self-serving tossers, but one does indeed suspect that the high-minded Patrick Harvie wouldn’t be quite so precious if the songs were hateful about gay people (say) instead.

      Frankly I don’t think there is any possible justification for shouting “fire” in a crowded auditorium merely to assert the principle of free speech.

      If the OBFA as it stood was observably imperfect, fair enough, put forward suitable amendments to set it right, not trash it.

      Never mind inviting self-justifying excuses, maybe the right question to ask these posers is actually “what practical measures do you now propose to take to meaningfully tackle such vile and anti-social behaviour?”.

    55. Hamish100 says:

      I hope Ruth Davidson washed her hands or all the Tories will have an infection. Mind you they Probably have already if Boris Johnstone’s ancestors are an indication

    56. Indy2 says:

      Petra 4.28pm

      Let’s hope the Greens can have a change of heart at the next stage of the Bill. Hopefully they will come round to what the majority of Scots want.

      This Bill being repealed will do nothing to attract supporters back to our football grounds, if anything it will drive supporters away.

      C’mon Patrick, Red Blue and Yellow Tories I can take, but a Green Tory, now that’s just one colour to many.

    57. liz says:

      Andrew Tickell can speak for himself but he did write a blog on how it could be easily adapted.

      The Greens are pissing me right off.
      They had ample opportunity to improve this bill.
      They could have said alter it and we will abstain on this vote until it’s done.

      I like Andy Wightman’s view on the environment and land reform but he comes across as a bit of a dick, determined to stick it to the SNP for shallow reasons.

      Like his petty insistance last year that the SNP accuse themselves of being timid with reforms before he would support the budget.

      I will never again place any green in any election.

    58. I never thought I’d hear myself say this, but we must return to FPTP for SG elections.
      This lot of list Tory placements, and Lib Dem and Labour fellow travellers, were not elected by the people but by Rotary Clubs and secret societies.
      We are in the grip of a Yoon Collaboration to destroy Scotland for their English Paymasters.
      The fucking chinless wonders that clutter up Holyrood is astounding.
      Next death at an Old Firm Match is down to the Yoons hatred of Scotland, the land of their birth.
      Seriously, Patrick Harvie, it is not too late to think again.
      You are siding with fascists who would demand proof from a lass that she had been raped by her uncle before she got stste support.
      Really? Really?

    59. Gary45% says:

      Wee update on Eddie Mountains office in Inverness, Halcro- Johnston’s name on external signage also.(probably spend their time playing wif waf.
      NO mention of the Tories anywhere.
      Tories tooo embarrassed to admit being Tories.
      Pathetic.

    60. galamcennalath says:

      The first guy in the first photo, Mountain I think. Zoomed in on his wee badge. It’s two flags, a Saltire and a Butcher’s Apron. Their idea of ‘unity’.

      Something occurred to me. It’s not a real Saltire because rather than sky blue it’s butcher’s dark blue. I’ve noticed such before. If the Yoons condescend to use a Saltire, they tend to use the wrong colour.

      A quick look on google confirms my theory. Here’s an example …
      http://archive.is/AcGgo

      What is this about?

      Don’t they like the ‘real thing’ because it is the strongest symbol of Scotland the nation and country, and let’s face it, they don’t really like things Scottish?

      Or, do they adopt their own ‘alt-Saltire’ which uses the glorious blue from their glorious butcher’s?

    61. galamcennalath says:

      Gary45% says:

      NO mention of the Tories anywhere.
      Tories tooo embarrassed to admit being Tories.

      Here’s Luke Graham’s ….

      http://archive.is/mCjEh

      Exactly. They want to be the Ruth Davidson’s Just Say No Party, not that nasty WM Pro Austerity Anti People Party. Well, only when looking for votes. When it comes to voting in WM they are 100% true blue Tories!

    62. Tinto Chiel says:

      “A wee list of reasons would do. Anyone from the Green Party care to explain?”

      Petra, Patrick Harvie had the chance in The National this week to explain his reasons for voting with the Yoons on OBFA. Instead he chose to bore us rigid with discussing a transport issue.

      He obviously had never been in a football ground pre-OBFA to hear the odious hate-filled crap coming from The Usual Suspects: some right of free speech, it was nothing but hate speech.

      And what will he say when the Neanderthals, emboldened by the repeal, start singing hate-filled ditties about the LGBTI community?

      Violence of the tongue often leads to physical violence, in my experience. Cue a spike in domestic violence.

      Next step: Murphy and Foulkes campaigning to allow booze back into the grounds ‘cos the working-class are being treated differently from those middle-class rugby supporters.

      Divide the proles and give the SG a kick in the gonads: perfick.

    63. velofello says:

      You don’t need to be smart to be a politician, you just need get on the List candidate scam.

      I am stunned that the Greens should be so stupid.They have aligned themselves with the sectarianism faction in our society.Public opinion supports the Act, doesn’t that matter to you, in your political “calculations”?

      No attempts at political sophistry, no fancy words about freedom of speech please Mr Harvie, you have endorsed the abusive threatening behaviour that the public must endure on public transport and in our streets; the vile behaviour at football matches joyfully broadcast on the “news” channels of the BBC and STV, and that brings disgrace upon our society.

      Shame on you.

    64. Do these people really think we do not see through them their tactics are playground stuff all decent intelligent people can see through them most of them are not elected and are certainly not wanted we must change the electrical system in Scotland,to make sure those who claim to represent the working people are put in our parliament by the working people not by some back door method of list votes the only way they can win anything is to lie and cheat and everyday in every way they insult our intelligence to change it we could being in an act of SVSL just like England did with EVEL

    65. yesindyref2 says:

      Just going to drop this here cos I can’t be arsed waiting for the right place.

      In Indy ref 1 Salmond emphasised the conections we’d have with the rest of the UK, even called them the three or four “unions”, a wording which was a mistake as the Unionits jumped on it. But his idea was right, easy-going, staraightforward, we’re all friends and family, life wll go on much as before. Support for Indy was at 23% to 28%, so this was the right thing to do, let people get used to the idea, make Independence a mainstream topic. Salmond was the right person for this, kind of like a cuddly bear.

      Indy Ref 2 is completely different. It’s starting from 45% YES in the Ref, and between 43% and 49% depending on who we believe. Sturgeon is far more feisty and reactive, and aggressive too, and this is what’s needed this time. It needs I think to be more about Scotland and less about the rUK – except to show up the negative side such as Brexit and its inward closing borders attitude.

    66. Thepnr says:

      So repealing the OBFA act is a “victory for the working classes” at least according to Liam )’Hare and I’m sure Neil Findlay said the same.

      Well if Labour, the Tories and Lib Dems had supported the SNP proposals during the Smith Commission and for powers over Welfare (excl. pensions) and Employment Law to be included in the Scotland Act 2016 they really could have helped the working class in Scotland.

      There was an opportunity missed to scrap benefit changes that are hurting the poorest most, they could also have voted to scap anti Trade Union laws brought in by Westminster Tory governments and kept by Labour.

      These people haven’t helped the working classes they have hindered them. Now they have decided to scrap one law that kept people safer and reduced obnoxious behaviour. How does that help?

      Hypocrites of the highest order, denying the Scottish Government the power to make any real difference in ordinary peoples lives through having real powers and instead withe the support of the Greens voting for something that will undoubtedly have negative impacts on ordinary people.

      What a useless bunch of chancers, the only saving grace is that there is every chance it will backfire on them and the Greens have just made the biggest mistake in their history as a party in Scotland. Without the second votes of SNP supporters in future they are likely toast.

    67. Alastair says:

      Lessons from history –
      Benefits of the British Isles Single Market .
      Between 1845 and 1850 1 million Irish citizens died during a famine and 1 million had to emigrate reducing the population from 8 million to 6 million some how not benefiting from the single market.

    68. Lenny Hartley says:

      Alastair, there was no famine in Ireland, I think genocide is the word you are looking for.
      a single crop, the Potato failed. There was plenty of food but due to the free market beloved by the “English” it was too expensive for the common people to afford, during the hight of the “Hunger” 500 tonnes of Oats were shipped from Ireland to India to feed British Army Horses.

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland’s problem with sectarianism is intrinsicly bound up with the yoonion and will not be resolved until the yoonion is ended.

      @Oxford-educated former Financial Times journalist and now wealthy Orkney farmer and Brexit enthusiast Jamie Halcro-Johnston.

      Are you looking to make a fast buck after the UKOK economy tanks post-Brexit? Not concerned about the impact Brexit will have on the poor and the vulnerable? Are you simply a committed supporter of right-wing, authoritarian, English nationalism?

      Brexit and the UK’s Public Finances

      Executive Summary

      If the result of the referendum on 23 June leads to the UK leaving the EU, there will be impacts on the UK public finances. This report aims to set out the possible
      impacts, focusing particularly on the short run, given that the Chancellor wishes to achieve a budget balance by the end of this parliament. We also look at possible long-run consequences.

      The overall impact on the public finances will depend on two distinct components, each of which is uncertain to some degree:

      The mechanical effect. As a net contributor to the EU, leaving the EU would strengthen the public finances because our net contribution would fall. But given uncertainty over the form of any subsequent arrangement with the EU, it might not necessarily fall to zero.

      The national income effect. Any effect of leaving the EU on UK national income would affect the public finances. A rise in national income would strengthen the public finances, a fall would weaken them.

      The mechanical effect

      The UK’s notional gross contribution (i.e. ignoring the
      UK’s rebate) in 2014 was £18.8 billion, which is about 1% of GDP. It is by dividing this number by 52 weeks that one comes to the widely-reported figure of over £350 million a week as the UK’s contribution to the EU. But in this context, ignoring the rebate is clearly inappropriate. It is equivalent to suggesting that were the UK to leave the EU and not make any financial contribution to the EU’s budget then remaining EU members would continue to pay the rebate to the UK. That is clearly absurd. The correct figure to use for the UK’s gross financial contribution takes account of the rebate. It stood at £14.4 billion, or 0.8% of GDP, in 2014.1 (This is equivalent to around £275 million a week.)

      In principle, the UK’s public finances could be strengthened by that full £14.4 billion a year if we were to leave the EU. However, the EU returns a significant fraction of that each year. The amount varies, but on average our net contribution stands at around £8 billion a year. That is £8 billion a year that we could use to fund other spending, cut taxes or reduce the deficit. Table 1 shows these direct, mechanical effects on the UK’s budget.

      If we decided to spend less on agriculture, rural development, regional support or university research, we would be able to boost the £8 billion of available money – though obviously at the expense of current recipients who would lose out from such a change.

      https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf

      CEP BREXIT ANALYSIS NO.2
      The consequences of Brexit for UK trade and living standards

      The European Union (EU) is the UK’s largest trade partner. Around a half of the UK’s trade is with the EU. EU membership reduces trade costs between the UK and the EU. This makes goods and services cheaper for UK consumers and allows UK businesses to export more.

      Leaving the EU (‘Brexit’) would lower trade between the UK and the EU because of higher tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade. In addition, the UK would benefit less from future market integration within the EU. The main economic benefit of leaving the EU would be a lower net contribution to the EU budget.

      Our analysis first quantifies the ‘static’ effects of Brexit on trade and income. In an ‘optimistic’ scenario, the UK (like Norway) obtains full access to the EU single market. We calculate this results in a 1.3% fall in average UK incomes (or £850 per household). In a ‘pessimistic’ scenario with larger increases in trade costs, Brexit lowers income by 2.6% (£1,700 per household).

      All EU countries lose income after Brexit. The overall GDP fall in the UKis£26 billion to £55 billion, about twice as big as the £12 billion to £28 billion income loss in the rest of the EU combined. Non-EU countries experience some smaller income gains.

      If the UK unilaterally removed all its tariffs on imports from the rest of the world after Brexit, UK incomes fall by 1% in the optimistic case and 2.3% in the pessimistic case.

      In the long run, reduced trade lowers productivity. Factoring in these effects substantially increases the costs of Brexit to a loss of 6.3% to 9.5% of GDP (about £4,200 to £6,400per household).

      Being outside the EU means that the UK would not automatically benefit from future EU trade deals with other countries. This would mean missing out on the current US and Japanese deals, which are forecast to improve real incomes by 0.6%.

      After Brexit, would the UK obtain better trade deals with non-EU countries? It would not have to compromise so much with other EU states, but the UK would lose bargaining power as its economy makes up only 18% of the EU’s ‘single market’.

      It is unclear whether there are substantial regulatory benefits from Brexit. The UK already has one of the OECD’s least regulated product and labour markets. ‘Big ticket’ savings are supposedly from abolition of the Renewable Energy Strategy and the Working Time Directive – both of which receive considerable domestic political support in the UK.

      http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit02.pdf

    70. TheWasp says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 6.46

      I’ve been doing ancestry research and needed to look at the Irish records. The family on my grans side were from Donegal, and were a complete mystery to everyone. It turns out that the reason for this is that the Westminster Government destroyed most of the Irish records by burning them, so no-one would know how many folk died in the “famine”. The ones that weren’t destroyed then were “got rid of” around the time of the uprising,under pretence that the IRA did it.

    71. Gary45% says:

      Looking at the picture of Sarwar.
      100% if it was the “SNP curing cancer”, Sarwar and his Yoon ilk would still have the banner “Show the SNP the red card on curing cancer,” they really are that blinkered and pathetic.
      Unfortunately there are some who still give these FU*KERS votes.
      If any Yoon trolls want to take this up with me, BRING IT ON. Your days are numbered, you know it, we know it.

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TheWasp –

      You’re right enough.

      I was set to apply for Irish citizenship years ago, did all the homework/research etc but ran into a brick wall when it came to birth records – turns out the parish where my grandparents’ births would’ve been registered had no records from that time. None. This was, I think, Belmullet, Co. Mayo. I never did find out what happened to them, but the upshot was (and is) that I’m stuck with the ‘British’ passport. No boltin’ tae the Oul Country for me!

      🙁

    73. mr thms says:

      Hopefully the majority of parliamentarians who voted to repeal the offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012, in the first stage voting know what they are doing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism

    74. Mike d says:

      Ian brotherhood 7.39pm . Yeah.had a bit of trouble myself there Ian. They didn’t keep parish records back in those day’s. Both my grandparents came from Belmullet co mayo. Although born in ayrshire, i went to school for 5 yrs in Belmullet from the age of 10 till 15. Hence my Irish passport. Never had a brit one, guess I’ll have to keep hanging on for a Scottish one.

    75. Glamaig says:

      TheWasp 27 January, 2018 at 7:19 pm
      Lenny Hartley @ 6.46

      Its surprising what you can find – try this

      https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html

      I found this quite useful

      https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Griffiths-Valuation.html

    76. colin alexander says:

      I don’t care about the OBFA.

      I care about Scotland’s people’s sovereignty and Scotland’s independence.

      I seem to be the only one that cares about both, though Mr Peffers will give you the history lesson about it.

      So, as it’s about OBFA and I have bigger fish to fry, I’ll say no more about it in this boring thread.

    77. Mike d says:

      Lenny 6.56pm. I think the word is ETHNÌC CLEANSING. by the benevolent better together brits.

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      I see the toys are throwing FUD out the pram.

    79. Ghillie says:

      Anyone might get the impression that it was in the richer Unionists’ interests to encourage sectarianism and violence in Scotland…

    80. Gary45% says:

      Ghillie@8.42.
      Yep, keep the “Celtic nations” subservient, while pick pocketing their resources and identity.
      The English Empire that keeps on taking, and calling everyone else a thief.

    81. Rob says:

      Edward Mountain is a ‘local farmer’ and was a candidate in Inverness, no mention of his aristo credentials, the poor mans offspring where, allegedly, harassed by some nasty ‘nats’ When he set up his Conservative stall right beside a crowd who’d gathered to welcome Nicola Sturgeon to the town so have some sympathy chaps…

    82. K1 says:

      If they can have us all ‘fighting’ each other…they can introduce direct rule. Def think that’s somewhere in their plans…it’s no as if they aren’t trying to ‘create’ a ‘divisive’ country eh?

    83. Lenny Hartley says:

      Mike D didnt know they had room in Belmullet as the main street is full of pubs! My Granny came from south of Belmullet
      Ian Brotherhhod – bugger that was my get out clause, was hoping to get proof of my Granny’s birth in Bellmullet and get an Irish Passport if we are not Independent in a few years. Im not staying in this country amongst a bunch of Proud Scot buts. Im gonna head over in April anyway and see what I can find.

    84. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Mike d (8.21) –

      They didn’t keep records at all? I thought perhaps they’d been lost or destroyed.

      For my grandparents Belmullet was ‘the big town’ because they lived on the coast, Bloody-somewhere or other (foreland?). Just a line of four, five ramshackle cottages. I was taken there when I was about four or five, went over on a ferry that reeked of cattle. And that’s my main memory of the place when we got there – mud, cows, and that same smell.

      In the early days of this place Dick Gaughan used to comment now and then. I have a vague feeling that we had a similar conversation with him one night, that his family is from the same neck of the woods. Anyone else remember that? Did I just imagine it?!

      😉

    85. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ian B back around 96 I went in search of the ancestral pile, last communication with Irish Cousins
      (joyce) had been in 1942 when they sent an Auntie a letter asking her to send a shilling to help thatch the roof. So I had an address, still could not find it, despite spending a morning going round in circles on a motorbike. Could not linger as was with some mates and we were due in Achil Island that night. We did meet a cousins daughter in the tourist office in Belmullet when we were leaving the area, if only we had seen it earlier that morning. What I remember of Belmullet was for a population of 1000 it had 11 pubs and on a Tuesday night it was hoaching!!

    86. Mike d says:

      Ian B. There were no parish records of my great grandparents, i believe they weren’t recorded for whatever reason. My grandfather was an islander ‘iniskea’ off the belmullet peninsula. After ww2 the irish gov relocated them to the mainland. Belmullet town. I’m in my mid 60’s now,so some time ago. Yeah me and my brother travelled on that cattle boat manys a time as kids from glasgow to Dublin north wall. We went to Belmullet national school by the canal in the town , just past the quay (pier).

    87. twathater says:

      I agree with all on here re the Greens and the unionists sticking it to the SNP SG irrespective of the regs ,rules or policies .

      Just look at the demented idiotic example of Kelly the liebour finance spokesman when asked for his alternative Scottish budget ( ” we are taking time to formulate one we will not rush in to things ” ) that tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about these ar*ewipes , moan , moan , moan , with no alternative put forward , it was that CRINGING even the SLIPSTREAM MEDIA BROADCAST IT ,the GE no manifestos from any of the unionists , just , NO INDYREF , nothing of substance

      IMHO I think every time these tubes object to something they should be required to put forward their alternatives instead of just moaning and objecting , that way the public maybe realise just how shallow and bereft of ideas these shallow incompetent troughers are .

      As for the OBFA the SG should indicate strongly and publicly at FM questions the figures of support from the public to retain the act , and reinforce that it is the combined opposition parties who want to place the public in danger from abusive sectarian acts , who want to diminish Scotland in the eyes of the world by abolishing laws that brings abhorrent anti social behaviour in front of criminal courts

      It is the responsibility of ALL football clubs to ensure proper compliance of the law , to ensure people attending their venues behave in a proper manner , force these money grabbing clubs to face their responsibilities

    88. Mike d says:

      Ian B.they used to have a big fairday in Belmullet on the 15th Aug. Where they sold cattle in the town square.me and my pals used to be right little sh*ts with the catapults we bought from the traders.lol.

    89. cubby says:

      The Greens will not be getting my vote ever again. Another politician – Harvie – sells out.

    90. Mike d says:

      Lenny hartley 9.08pm. Yes lenny I well knew the pubs in Belmullet main st in the early seventies. ‘ western strands hotel’ ‘ forty Walsh’s ‘ ‘dailys bar ‘ And then after a few jars,off to the ‘Palm court ‘ (dancehall). Happy days.

    91. Mike d says:

      Sorry everyone for going off topic here.

    92. Iain says:

      On the OBFA,looks like the loonys think they are running the show.
      Only problem is their electorate are
      slowly dying.
      What are they going to do then?

    93. Mike d says:

      Lenny h 9.08pm. My grandparents met and got married in cupar. I sent away to Edinburgh for a copy of their marriage certificate. Thus entitling me to my Irish passport.

    94. Capella says:

      @ Mike d – don’t be sorry – it’s interesting. So many different routes everyone has taken to get to YES.

    95. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sectarianism was born with the political yoonion of Scotland and England. It will not be possible to resolve this social cancer until the yoonion is ended.

      Uniting the Kingdoms?

      Scotland

      Introduction

      After the Norman conquest in 1066, Scotland and England were uneasy neighbours for more than two centuries. Then, in 1296, Edward I claimed overlordship of Scotland. This marked the start of full-scale war between the two countries, a war that was pursued intermittently for almost the next three centuries.

      Under Elizabeth I, however, religion became the major factor in Anglo-Scottish relations. The queen formed an alliance with Scottish Protestants and this created the conditions for the English and Scottish crowns to be united, in 1603, under James VI of Scotland and I of England….

      http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/utk/scotland/

    96. Iain says:

      P.s. Looks like the green party just committed electoral suicide.
      What about putting them up for the “fanny of the year award “”
      They richly deserve this.

    97. crazycat says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      Dick Gaughan has certainly referred elsewhere to having ancestors from Mayo; I didn’t see the conversation on here (and it doesn’t come up in a google search for the most obvious key words).

    98. Jim says:

      Is it me or are these unionists cunts trying to keep Scotland divided using religion the same as they have done in Ireland.

      It just seems to me there is an agenda at play here.

    99. Bill Hume says:

      List voted eh?….Greens hoovering them up eh?
      We need another independence party or two do we not?

    100. Bill Hume says:

      That should have read, LIST VOTES.

    101. Old Pete says:

      What dafties vote for this useless bunch ?

    102. Bill Hume says:

      How about a Wings for Scotland party, standing on an “anyone but the bloody British Nationalists” platform? Let’s face it, if it’s good enough for the Tory and Labour parties to encourage an “Anyone but the SNP” vote, it’s good enough for us.

    103. Simon Curran says:

      Whatever happened to workers of the world unite? Sectarianism pits worker against worker. Liam O’Hare is condescending and patronising- as if working class identity consists in the right to sing songs about fascist razor gangs or glorify terrorists.

    104. Rock says:

      Another brilliant article.

      Will it be published as front page headline news and the rest of it inside the paper in the fake “independence supporting” The National on Monday?

      I doubt it.

    105. heedtracker says:

      Fucking tory scum. Sorry but they just are.

    106. Bill Hume says:

      WTF happened to the ‘ignore’ option on here? Sorry, just read Rock’s latest little epistle.

    107. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      27 January, 2018 at 10:09 pm
      Sectarianism was born with the political yoonion of Scotland and England. It will not be possible to resolve this social cancer until the yoonion is ended.

      Its religion first though.

      Get religion out of our lives and if not, get it out of schools, and politics, everything state, but especially schools.

      Secular states do not suffer sectarian nutters trying to kill each other.

    108. Mike d says:

      Jim 10.26pm. Yes jim these liebor unionist cnuts have deliberately kept Scotland divided by sectarian hatred for decades while feathering their own nests. But thankfully i think the blinkers are slowly starting to come off the people of Scotland.

    109. colin alexander says:

      EUROPEAN COMMISSION FOR DEMOCRACY THROUGH LAW
      (VENICE COMMISSION)
      CODE OF GOOD PRACTICE ON REFERENDUMS

      “c. Balanced coverage must be guaranteed to the proposal’s supporters and opponents in other public mass media broadcasts, especially news broadcasts. Account may be taken of
      the number of political parties supporting each option or their election results.”

      http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=cdl-ad(2007)008-e

    110. Gary45% says:

      Just a wee thought on the subject of the Greens.
      They have stood up for Indy, but now seem to be siding with the Yoons.
      Maybees a wee behind the scenes jiggery pokery going on from the “Establishment” to further divide the Scottish electorate?
      Maybe wee Pat has had an offer of free Curly Wurlys, lashings of Ginger Beer and a trip round Westminster.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      You listening, Pat?

      You can whistle for my vote as well Pat, which you would have a good shout at, AFTER independence. Prat!

    112. Valerie says:

      Ian Brotherhood (Irish birth certificates)

      Might be a long shot, but try this site. Its the one I used, and a lot is digitised. Wont help if it was a fire years ago, of course.

      https://www.birthsdeathsmarriages.ie

      My mother is from Achill, Co Mayo. This site supplies the long version of the birth certificate, which you need for any application. Anyone else interested, its parents or grandparents that allow you to apply for Irish citizenship.

      Regarding Stu’s piece, I agree with other comments, Greens are biggest disappointment – AGAIN.

      Yoons always gonna yoon.

    113. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @crazycat, Lenny, Mike et al –

      Cheers all.

      It’s horrible, all the blank gaps in our collective past. That shouldn’t happen.

      Here’s hoping our great-grand weans are able to access all the archives and see for themselves what we thought, discussed, and did. They can make their own minds up about whether we’re right or not.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      I’m not religious Heed but society needs an injection of spirituality to counter 50 years of neo-liberal social vandalism. Where is the Church of Scotland on this, do they stand loyal with their commitment to British nationalism? That would appear to place them in partnership with these BritNat enablers of sectarianism.

      @Church of Scotland
      I suggest you do some reading up on the difference between nationalism and patriotism. One is intrinsically authoritarian, the other not so much. Do you support Brexit and the populist English nationalism that delivered it?

    115. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      27 January, 2018 at 11:24 pm
      heedtracker
      I’m not religious Heed but society needs an injection of spirituality to counter 50 years of neo-liberal social vandalism.

      No it does not. Look at how sects in the same religions kill each other with all the hate and zealotry imaginable, Christian, Muslims, you name, they just love to kill each other.

      You do not have a spirit Cameron. You have something infinitely more valuable and important, your brain.

      Use it, or lose it:D

      Sudoku is what I melt mine with, and hating tory scumbags.

    116. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Valerie –

      Ye’re a star, ah’ll check it right now.

      😉

    117. heedtracker says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kaIY1fc2gc

      Mark Steele’s called a comedian by the great beeb gimp network but he’s not.

      Tory scum in Scotland want people at each other throats, tory scum in England make the poor pay for the mess the rich created. Its hard to know which is the more despicable really, Scotch tory scum or English.

    118. Hamish100 says:

      Just a thought but doesn’t atheist countries and groups fight and kill or are they agnostic on the matter?

    119. heedtracker says:

      Hamish100 says:
      27 January, 2018 at 11:48 pm
      Just a thought but doesn’t atheist countries and groups fight and kill or are they agnostic on the matter?

      No.

      Think on.

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed
      The Second World War wasn’t a religious war and it killed 50 million people. The First wasn’t either, it was basically a family feud and it killed 18 million.

      Religion is only one reason for war, and even then it’s not about religion it’s about POWER.

    121. Valerie says:

      @ CameronB

      I very rarely disagree with your considered posts, but have to disagree about supporting any kind of religion. That seems to be the game of the Brits right now, and it horrifies me.

      May, as the vicar’s daughter, is obviously considered a selling point, always pics of her coming out ofchurch, shaking the vicars hand etc. I also see a few more more religious programmes on Beeb creeping in. I think the Brits will use it as another ‘othering’, as it works so efficiently with Islamophobia, Muslims etc.

      I just reported some filth from a ‘christian’ on Twitter about Jews.

      I want less religion. Its a private matter, done in your private time. Not at work, football, out on the street, in newspapers, on social platforms (unless private groups).

      I know some congregations were told to vote No (a catholic friend), and im sure Church if Scotland declared No.

      sickens me.

    122. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      You don’t need to be religious to be spiritual. It isn’t possible to understand or even describe the infinite. Spirituality does not have to be invested in ideologies of domination.

      Scotland is being crushed by UKOKian, utilitarian, empiricism, which is a product of English/Anglican culture.

      MetaRealism

      This special issue completes our series of special issues on the main developmental phases of the philosophy of critical realism: original critical realism,1 dialectical critical realism2 and metaRealism.3 Entirely in keeping with its main developmental thrust, in my view, metaRealism adds an absolute transcendental stratum or spiritual infrastructure to critical realist philosophical ontology. If Bhaskar sometimes refers to his spiritual turn as ‘so-called’ it is because, I think, he deemed his philosophy to be always already at least implicitly spiritual. The fundamental drive of the system as a whole is spiritual in the sense of transcending dualism and oppositionality, that is, achieving union or identity in a total context.4

      Its main motor is a double process of immanent critique — first of the philosophical discourse of modernity, more generally the Western philosophical tradition; second of its own prior phases — coupled with transcendental argumentation for realist positions that render human transformative praxis more intelligible, leading to more adequate and complete conceptual formations. Original critical realism does, I think, successfully resolve many of the key dualisms of the philosophy of Western modernity (structure/agency, individualism/collectivism, body/mind, causes/reasons, facts/values) but not the most portentous dualism of all for human free flourishing: the antinomy, or paradoxical co-presence, of (essential) freedom and (actual) slavery famously noted by Rousseau: people as such are free but everywhere in chains.5 The full resolution of this dualism had to await the dialectical critical realist and metaRealist understanding that the difference prioritized over unity in Western philosophy, including original critical realism, presupposes underlying unity or identity-in-difference. There are a number of milestones along the way to this result.6

      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1179/1476743015Z.00000000073

      A deeper materialism: Michael Stone at TEDxToronto
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqFgGpoLINg

      The Dr. Mark Foster Show: metaRealism as a Spiritual Left
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzZQbfqVDsA

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      Valerie
      See above. 🙂

    124. Legerwood says:

      Valerie @ 12.10 am
      “”I know some congregations were told to vote No (a catholic friend), and im sure Church if Scotland declared No.

      sickens me.””

      Why are you sure the Church of Scotland said ‘No ?

      Might have been an idea to check before making such a definite statement. It would be a brave, some would say foolhardy, Kirk minister who told his congregation how to vote.

      Scottish independence: Church of Scotland ministers back ‘Yes’ vote – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28917877

    125. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      28 January, 2018 at 12:16 am
      heedtracker
      You don’t need to be religious to be spiritual.

      We do not have spirits Cameron!

      Our brains are bio computers. We are all made of stars. As soon as we flop in to spirituality, there’s a whole circus of chancers waiting to sell us all kinds of deified bullshit. And ofcourse another circus of shits, like our tory shits this week, are more than happy to exploit it all, even in Edinburgh, birthplace of the Enlightenment, although god only knows how all that happened. Must have been something in the water:D

    126. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      Wind your neck in pal. Spirituality has fuck all to do with religion.

    127. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      28 January, 2018 at 12:33 am
      heedtracker
      Wind your neck in pal. Spirituality has fuck all to do with religion.

      Good luck to your spirit Cameron, is also why I was kinda rooting for the Marines in Avatar:D

    128. Valerie says:

      @ Legerwood

      Fair enough, but you will need to read your sources more clearly.

      30 Ministers sign a letter supporting independence, AND they are Christians for Yes.

      There are thousands of Church of Scotland congregations, this is the breakaway group.

      I based my comment on direct knowledge (limited) and more widespread comments on social media.

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      Heedtracker
      Let not fall out. ‘Spirituality’ is a divisive concept, at least check the Ted video before you tell me I’m wrong in suggesting we need a better connection with social reality.

    130. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      28 January, 2018 at 12:54 am
      Heedtracker
      Let not fall out. ‘Spirituality’ is a divisive concept, at least check the Ted video before you tell me I’m wrong in suggesting we need a better connection with social reality

      We are not falling out Cameron. That takes two. You realise you’re the one with the spirit that jumped to Defcon3? because someone questioned your spirits, ergo, making my point and what we witnessed this week in Holyrood.

    131. Valerie says:

      @Legerwood

      ‘Christians cannot vote for independence’

      http://archive.is/XisSD

      Whilst Im sure this didnt affect all Christians, and how they voted, it is an ex moderator of an assembly, so he feels free to throw his weight around in a yoon paper.

      Exactly the type of crap Im talking about.

      Its no doubt what prompted the breakaway group.

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      Heedtracker
      I jumped to Defcon3 because I knew I was on to a pretty safe bet that you hadn’t heard of MetaRealism, a branch of Critical Realism, yet you were off on one because you’re not religious. None of us know it all mate. 😉

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      Divide and conquer. If you’re part of that group you’re not with us, or that one, or that one, or that one, or that one ad infinitum including ping pong players and snail racers … oh, why am I the only person voting YES?

    134. Valerie says:

      @Cameron B

      I’m having a wee chuckle, cos you did kinda get out your pram there, but of course you are gent enough to play nice again. 🙂

      I think what you call social reality, I might call social cohesion, as opposed to the social isolation we see. Im not referring to lonlieness, but that ‘greater good’ of a society, where everyone wants everyone else to do as well as they can.

      Every individual having a minimum standard of food, clothing, shelter, safety, freedom from fear etc.

      Not everyone can volunteer, but they can contribute in some small way, paying taxes, not dodging, upholding employment rights, treating people with respect, reporting abuse, ALL make a difference.

    135. heedtracker says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      28 January, 2018 at 1:10 am
      Divide and conquer.

      All seeing old dude in a togo up in the clouds that can see everything we do, even at Ibrox or Parkhead is one thing, back on Earth 2018, The Graun says worship these gods on earth,

      http://archive.is/c26nz

      Crown jewel: the soft power of William and Kate’s Nordic visit
      Royal couple will offer plenty of photo-ops but their real aim is to bolster Britain’s influence”

      Maybe UKOK hackdom is just another clusterfuck of, well, fcukwits, making their way in the world today.

      Its is 2018, not 1318, in merry olde England?

    136. Sunshine says:

      @Legerwood
      Thank you for replying to my post on the previous thread.
      I remember more clearly now and agree with all that you said
      Cheers

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      Valerie
      I wasn’t really playing nice. MetaRealism is a branch of Critical Realism, which is foundational to contemporary theory aimed at emancipator social transformation. 🙂

      “Critical Realism … or Critical Idealism?”, International Journal of Social Economics, Vol. 37 Issue: 11, pp.867-879

      Abstract:

      Purpose – The purpose of this paper is to argue that the school of thought known as Critical Realism and the thinkers involved in the current revival of interest in British Idealism would benefit from interacting with each other.

      Design/methodology/approach – The paper proceeds by critically examining central tenets in the thought of each school, and exhibit their affinities and differences.

      Findings – It is found that there are central themes and concerns shared by each school of thought, and that the recognition of such commonalities might prove mutually beneficial to the relevant parties in their goal of positively transforming social reality. Furthermore, the Critical Realist worry about Idealisms “irreality” is shown to be unfounded.

      Originality/value – The close relationship of the ideas of these two “lines of thought” has not, to our knowledge, previously been highlighted. Having done so in the paper, a useful dialogue may ensue.

      http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/03068291011082838

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed “All seeing old dude in a togo up in the clouds

      That’s one of the less disrespectful things secularists / himanists / atheists / non-religious activists say.

      Personally I think we should respect people who follow any religion that isn’t “evil”, or who follow none.

      If we were all carbon copies of each other, we’d all be one single sheet of paper.

      Anyways, good Sunday Herald articles today, maybe it’s on its way back. Proceed with caution!

    139. mr thms says:

      Another piece of the independence jigsaw falling into place..

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42817643

      If the use of land on the west coast of Scotland changes as a result of reforms, one possible scenario is the development of oil and gas in the area.

    140. Lily Ladygarden says:

      @morgatron – I, and all the other ladies out there, object to our lady parts being used as a comparator for Anas Sarwar. Our lady parts are infinitely more useful!

    141. Was surprised at Stuart Cosgrove on `of the ball` talking uninformed pish about OBFA,

      new Tam couldnae spell OBFA and some gimp from I think Daily Fake news Mail would be against it (he sounded bordering on slavering eejit but Sports journalism doesn`t attract the best of minds),

      but Stuart was a big disappointment to say the least, hope he never put job before principles.

    142. Brian Powell says:

      When it comes to the clergy and Independence should be remembered one of the great enablers of the Clearances and support of the Brit Establishment, was the Church.

      Admonishing parishioners for not accepting being sent to Canada and for opposing the landowners. ‘

    143. Dr Jim says:

      @Valerie
      “Christians cannot vote for Independence”

      You have to chuckle at that one
      was there any fire and brimstone in evidence when he said it, or heavens opening up ready to rain down the wrath of Jehovah, or plagues of stuff

      We need more of this in big banner headlines on front pages, people will be lining up to vote for Independence

    144. Brian Powell says:

      I suppose people like Cosgrove haven’t understood the Act isn’t about the game of football or supporting football.

    145. ronnie anderson says:

      Marr oan Sunday lets run it up the FlagPole an see if Fleggate gets mentioned Morning all

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says: 27 January, 2018 at 10:09 pm:

      “The queen formed an alliance with Scottish Protestants and this created the conditions for the English and Scottish crowns to be united, in 1603, under James VI of Scotland and I of England….”

      http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/utk/scotland/

      The problem with that, CameronB, is that it is the usual re-write of history that does not stand up to any real scrutiny, for there could be no actual legal, “Union of The Crowns”, in 1603.

      It was only a union in that both, still independent, crowns rested upon the same person’s head and it was only a personal union for that person. Not for the two still independent kingdoms. However, no head was/is large enough to wear both crowns at the same time, (and legally it is not possible anyway). The reason being that under Scots law, the monarch in Scotland was/is not legally sovereign.

      Under English law, (as confirmed by the English courts in 1688), the sovereignty belongs to the kingdom and cannot be given away by the sitting monarch of England. Sovereignty is/was the Divine Right of Kings to rule, that is God chooses a sovereign monarch by having the future monarch placed in the royal womb.

      That legal idea of sovereignty changed in Scotland in 1320 but in essence is still in place under English law. All that was changed under English law was that while the Monarch in England retains the Divine Right of Kings, English law states that that sovereignty legally belongs to the Kingdom and not to the individual monarch who, (from 1688), legally delegates the use of it, while retaining the legal sovereignty, to the parliament of England. Which is why Westminster forced the Treaty of Union upon the Scottish parliament in 1706/7.

      This is illustrated in at least two ways. First of all an English monarch cannot give away the sovereignty of England but can only abdicate it – in which circumstance it passes immediately to the next in line to the crown of England.

      Secondly, when a sitting monarch dies the proclamation is, “The King is dead: Long Live the King”, and the crown passes to the next in line because, in both cases the sovereignty belongs to the Kingdom. In short English law forced King Billy and Queen Mary to legally delegate the Divine Right of Kings to the Parliament of England.

      But note that as the King/Queen of Scots is not legally sovereign then the King/Queen of Scots has no sovereignty to delegate to anyone or anything as Scottish Sovereignty is legally held by the people of Scotland and only a majority of the people of Scotland can legally delegate their sovereignty to anyone or any parliament.

      Which is why the Yoons are so firmly, and bitterly, determined to stop indyref2 under any circumstance. When that magic 50%+1 majority is officially reached the proverbial, “ba is oan the Inglis slates”, and they know it. At that moment the legally sovereign people of Scotland will have withdrawn their sovereign delegation of their, “Divine Right to Rule”, and there is just one teeny-weeny problem. Who will they them delegate it to? It could be to an individual who would then become King/Queen of Scots as per the Declaration of Arbroath or to the Parliament of Scotland which, if you remember, was never officially permanently wound up but stands recorded as only ever having been prorogued.

      Now here, (below), you can see that old Scottish Parliament being, Reconvened.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiottF-df3Y

      To the best of my knowledge that simple statement by Madam Écosse has never been legally challenged under any legal system neither English, International or Scottish.

    147. Valerie says:

      @Dr Jim

      I find that piece, and quotes from a ‘relgious’ person disgusting, patronising and insulting in the extreme. It demonstrates the ‘othering’ I mentioned above.

      It demonstrates best what they fear, losing power or status. Remember bishops sit in the House of Lords, most enlightened nations separate state and church.

    148. Liz g says:

      Hamish 100 @ 11.48….
      No doubt there are atheist’s and agnostics involved in war’s…. of course there is!
      But Atheist’s have never gone to war to fight FOR or OVER atheism itself,that’s the difference!

      …………………………
      Valerie @ 12.10

      While I am going back a fair bit (79 referendum)…I have sat in a church and personally heard a Priest preaching ” don’t vote for this devolution,or what is happing in Ireland will happen here”.
      Can’t speak for the next two vote though as my parents very shortly after lost control of my Sunday morning activities.
      But have never forgotten it…..can’t think why LOL….

      As for respecting religion….. Well I don’t see how a “thing” can be respected,only people can.
      But it’s very difficult to do when they speak of a fantasy they have,and expect you to not only take them seriously,but accept without question the thing that they speak of is real.
      But I hope you would agree that Law’s for everyone should not be made based on the theory of any one religion.
      But rather in the best interests of everyone.
      If God wants Law’s made he/she or it should turn up and tell us….and not leave it to ( usually )hysterical old men to claim they know what the order’s are.

      …………………
      Yesindyref2 @ 12.07

      While aye all wars are about power…..religion is usually the vehicle used to get peoples to actually fight and die in them.
      And there was definitely a big religious element in the second word war,as in the “Master Race” was most definitely only for a particular sect of Christianity.

      I would argue that most who supported the concept and therefore allowed the war to happen,believed that the superiority of their particular sect was worth the fight!
      I am not talking about the leaders reasons for makin war,I am meaning that without religion it would be dammed near impossible to convince people to take part.

      Probably why “States” always like to have some sort of official religion… even when they pretend not to,and almost all of the Media speak and behave as though there is no question at all about the existence of a supreme being!

      As for the first world war……that had a bit to do with the breakup of the Ottoman empire did it no?
      And right in there was the race to control the power vacuum of Islamic territory… So it’s in there as well!

    149. Dr Jim says:

      @Valerie

      I’m not a religious person but I do believe for those who are, religion or faith should be a comfort to those who want it and not used as a threat, because when you hold the sword of damocles over the heads of people to force a decision to your particular benefit or creed, in the end you will be rebelled against just like Scotland is doing now when the Unionists forced their sneaky Devo Max option onto the ballot paper without legal agreement to do so, making it a confidence trick on people then when they realise they were conned disengage from the people who conned them

    150. The Isolator says:

      Scot@ 7.54

      Didn’t hear anything of Off The Ball yesterday but from what your saying both Tam and Stuart appear against the legislation on the grounds that it discriminates against the ordinary football fan which surprises me really as Cosgroves St Johnston FC don’t even feature in the statistics given by Scottish Government here
      http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2017/06/7620/4

      Motherwell FC also have a very low offence count.It would be interesting to know what irks them about the legislation and on what basis they object to it.

      Sounds like waffle from them to me.The journo well no surprise there.

    151. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9.30
      Here’s an interesting concept fur ye Robert.
      Should Mary Stewart have had a Male child before her husband died…..then Scotland would have still had two crown’s on the one head.
      And that head would still be Mary Stewart’s son!
      Wonder what England would have done fur a King then?
      Mibbi three Crown’s???….. apparently they were big on Trinity’s back then tae!

    152. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/groups/Yes2Provan/permalink/1576219302461795/

      Aye Tommy flying the Flag for Corbyn the same Corbyn that can’t distinguish between Socialism & Capitalism Marr on Sunday 28/1/18 , & the Corbyn that is against Independence of Scotland , how does Tommy square that circle .

    153. Fred says:

      If Mary Stuart died before the Dauphin of France, the marriage contract gave Scotland to France as far as I remember! Next in line were the Hamilton’s, one of whom was poisoned in France!

    154. Fred says:

      Next time Andy Wightman is passing the begging-bowl to defend a lawsuit against some of his Tory chums. Keep on passing!

    155. louis.b.argyll says:

      Good points above.

      We already are independent.

      Scotland is merely trapped by a historical treaty.

      In a marriage created to settle an aristocratic feud.

      Our Scottish national institutions are mostly still in place.

      Our civic leaders, Church, academia legally placated into subservience, against better judgement, by a paranoid UK Establishment, itself, now taken over by the Conservative and Unionist Party.

      WE WERE MIS-SOLD. THE VICTIM OF A VAST SCAM.

      MEDIEVAL MEDDLING HAS PERPETUAL LEGAL SUPREMACY!?

      MIDDLE CLASSES SEEM TO BE UNDER A ROYAL SPELL..A HEALTHY SPRINKLING OF PRIVILEGE.

      I want my PPI.

    156. Fred says:

      Dick Gaughan brought up in Edinburgh was actually born in Glasgow, his folk from Mayo & Glen Roy. He says his detractors could refer to him either as an Irish bastard, a Heilan bastard or a Glesga bastard, they could suit themselves. Benefit concert for the man at the Celtic Connections. Best Wishes!

    157. Meg merrilees says:

      Ronnie anderson @9.00

      I don’t have a TV so can’t listen in, but I’d be surprised if flag gate gets mentioned – if it does it will only be to re-enforce the SNP bad theme.

      1. Nicola has issued lawyers letters ( which actually ‘tamed’ the Daily Heil)
      2. I think the BBC lawyers would advise them to steer clear of it as it implicates HM Queenie
      3. Their own Factcheck says Nicola was right.
      4. They would have to tell us that Mundell is refusing to apologise and by association TMay.
      5. They would have to tell us that Nicola ‘crushed’ (t)Ruthless with one tweet.
      6. It was all a storm in a teacup – fake news

      None of the above- what do you bet they bring it on anyways!!! can’t resist a bit of Nat bashing.
      ————————
      I notice they changed the early news bulletin. At 8am they said, re the lowering of the voting age in Wales to 16, that this would be for certain elections within Wales then went on to say that in Scotland ’16 and 17 years olds are able to vote in Scottish council and SCOTTISH NATIONAL elections’.
      By 9.00am that had been changed to ’16 and 17 year olds in Scotland are able to vote in elections to the devolved government’…. subtle eh?

    158. heedtracker says:

      yesindyref2

      Personally I think we should respect people, is where I stand.

      Except tories, whatever their religion, because as we all know, God’s a tory and English.

      Hope I don’t get struck down today but its been a great ride If I do.

      See you all in Scottish heaven, where the English tell everyone what to do, and we love them for it.

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      That looks like you’re trying to take all hope away from me Heed. 😉

    160. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      28 January, 2018 at 12:13 pm
      heedtracker
      That looks like you’re trying to take all hope away from me Heed

      I am totally in to the notion of human spirit Cameron, everything with its own spirit and so on, its just that you know, there’s nothing to back it all up.

      That photo up there of, “aristocrat Tory MSP Alexander Burnett,” is actually the slave quarters, sorry servant quarters of Crathes Castle.

      The filthy rich shites that own it all, made their money with all the usual slave wage exploitation that we have today, just a little longer ago.

      Now we are permitted to walk around the heavenly gardens and estates of Crathes Castle, we may even bump into that tory scumbag up there, and his spirit.

      Stick with me…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23286928
      ‘World’s oldest calendar’ discovered in Scottish field.

      This is actually a few hundred meters away from where this tory scumbag grins for the camera. Are the spirits of all the people that lived before Jesus Christ in hell today?

      https://www.nts.org.uk/Visit/Crathes-Castle

    161. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      Your looking too deeply mate, I was simply hoping to have my humanity justified at some point in time. You won’t find that in the yoonion. 😉

    162. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      28 January, 2018 at 12:35 pm
      heedtracker

      Don’t let anyone crush your spirit Cameron:D

      Which lets face it, is exactly what this shithead union is trying to do, every single day of our Scottish region lives.

      I’ve not watched any BBC Scotland gimp network stuff for ages for example, but its still gets on my spirits goat, as I pass it on giant screens in public places, smirky Bird, future Lord Brewer, their ridiculous SNP out Britnat attack propaganda, sans silly hairdos.

      Next life, I am coming back as tory zoomer, Ruth Davidson perhaps, but then God will have decided to cut Scotland some slack and we will be set free the UKOK shitheads, and I’ll have to somehow tory deal with all of that, next life:D

    163. Cactus says:

      Yes well done Anas, yer on for the hat-trick and by the way Anas, I heard ye on the radio earlier yesterday… I do not believe you Anas, ye talked about it but ah didnae feel the real love frae ye, try sticking tae politics ssson.

      Surely there must be a Tory politician due for the next Fanny award.

      Who is going to be the next hero?



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