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Wings Over Scotland

Twisted blood

Posted on May 03, 2016 by

The rise of the SNP has so bewildered the metropolitan commentariat that even almost a decade after the party won its first Scottish election pundits still barely know which way to face to confront it. A case in point can be found in today’s Times.


That was a quick switch.

A casual reader would reasonably assume from the article’s strapline, “the SNP’s independence obsession is anti-democratic”, that Massie was identifying that as a bad thing. (In the piece he says that Willie Rennie “spoke for most of Scotland” on the subject and that what Rennie said was “true”.)

Yet just a few paragraphs on Massie is describing democracy as a “reliably dreadful argument” from which society must be protected, lest it result in terrible things like the return of capital punishment and the slashing of immigration and benefit caps.

(We should perhaps observe in passing that we’re not actually completely sure why Massie objects to those things. Last month he said he’d be voting Tory in the election and at least two are official Conservative policy, while the other one is overwhelmingly backed in polls by Tory voters especially.)

Now, we’re happy enough to listen to that argument – as it happens we don’t want any of those things either, and there’s a perfectly legitimate case to be made against “government by referendum”, although it seems to work well enough for Switzerland.

But it’s a fairly remarkable U-turn to start going on about why democracy isn’t so great when you’re halfway through an article that started out as an attack on the SNP for being “anti-democratic”. You can’t have your cake and eat it, Alex, lad.

It’s not the only confused position in the piece.


That claim has the benefit of “truthiness” – it sounds like it’s right – but it’s a very difficult argument to sustain in the light of the facts. The SNP won an election in 2007 with no prospect of independence at all. After four years of minority government there was another election in which all conventional wisdom said an SNP majority was impossible, and which would therefore have meant a referendum was impossible.

Indeed, Labour led in the polls until just weeks before the vote. In March 2011 they were a thumping 15 points ahead of the SNP and a mere fortnight before the election the party was dismissing the first poll to give the Nats a lead as “rogue”.

Yet the SNP’s support shot up at the last minute and they won a historic landslide, but it wasn’t because “nearly half the country” supported independence – polling at the time put backing for it at barely over a third, with YouGov recording support for Yes at just 28% – more than 2:1 behind – in the last pre-election independence poll, held only seven days ahead of the Holyrood vote.

The SNP won their majority not because of independence but because voters looked at the main parties in the cold light of day and concluded that they’d do the best job of governing, and that they’d probably do an even better one if unencumbered by a kneejerk opposition that had forced through the Edinburgh trams, opposed building a new Forth crossing and blocked the abolition of the Council Tax.

Remarkably little looks like changing in this year’s election. The SNP will very likely end up with the same number of seats as they got five years ago, plus or minus two or three. Labour’s vote will almost certainly be the most different to 2011, but even then only looks like dropping six or seven points at most, with those distributed fairly evenly among the other parties. The SNP, Tories and Greens are all set to gain a little from Labour’s loss, but there’ll be no grand revolution, just a modest reshuffle.

Polls have consistently shown since 2007 that a substantial minority of those who vote for the SNP in Scottish elections actually oppose independence, and substantial minorities of pro-independence voters still vote for Unionist parties in elections. It’s rejecting that cast-iron fact that constitutes “denying reality”.

(Below is the most recent Panelbase poll, from last week. It suggests that 14% of SNP voters still oppose independence, much what the figure has always been, with 14% of Labour voters in favour. Interestingly, Green voters – on a micro-sample, it should be noted – are split down the middle.)


People weren’t voting for independence in 2011 and they won’t be voting for it in 2016 either. They might not have a fine grasp on policy detail, but they’ll be voting for the only party which has a credible claim to be able to competently run the country. And whether Alex Massie recognises it or not, that IS to all practical intents and purposes a “programme for government”.

Nine years on, the media still hasn’t got the faintest idea what’s going on in Scottish politics, and is turning itself in corkscrews trying to get a grip on it. Readers might be forgiven for wondering how much longer it’s going to take.

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187 to “Twisted blood”

  1. mike cassidy says:

    See, this is what I love about this site.

    Its the ease with which it exposes the woolly thinking of those who would claim to be our articulate, clear-thinking betters.

    Dunce’s cap for Mr Massie.

  2. Fairliered says:

    The media liggers have invested time and money over many years cultivating influence with yoon politicians. Now that the yoon politicians’ own influence is waning, the liggers see that their investment has been wasted. And they are angry.

  3. All liggered out and pouting when not roaring like Ruthie.

  4. Ruby says:

    Why are Unionist so terrified of having a 2nd referendum?

  5. MajorBloodnok says:

    Aside from Massie demonstrating yet again that the defining characteristic of the British Establishment is hypocrisy (or at the very least logical inconsistency, combined with projection), it is also an example of how the Metropolitan commentariat has great difficulty in understanding foreign politics, usually dismissing it as ‘undemocratic’ simply because it is not the same as the Westminster way of doing things.

  6. Roddy Macdonald says:

    Could anyone else stop laughing after “Rennie … ingites campaign”?

  7. ScottishPsyche says:

    The ‘only’ thing the SNP stand for is independence.
    If you vote for the SNP you are voting for independence.
    A vote for the SNP does not mean a vote for independence.
    A majority for the SNP does not mean the country wants independence.
    The ‘mood’ of the country can only be judged in terms of what is in the manifesto.

    I am so glad I have metrosplainers like Massie et al to explain to me what I am voting for. I need them to explain that only they understand the meaning of democracy.

    I will then, of course, vote SNP x 2

  8. Grouse Beater says:

    It’s extremely tiresome reading articles penned by Scotiaphobes and Anglophiles all written from the perspective of English colonial politics.

    Moreover, almost the authors have long since lost any notion of what genuine democracy is meant to be, and how it should be practiced.

    You can sum up their waffle in one sentence: ‘If Scotland is not controlled by England life will be hell for us all.’

    And by that they mean indirectly, and also by bully boy retaliation.

  9. FatCandy says:

    Rennie – another proud, patriotic Scot. A man whose party’s entire campaign is based on denigrating Police Scotland. The Lib Dems even put pen to paper to remind voters of the “lamentable state” of the organisation in their election correspondence.

    I know it’s poor etiquette to play the man and not the ball but, fuck me sideways, what a complete and utter clown.

    Whatever happens on Thursday I do hope Rennie loses his seat.

  10. Janet says:

    No complacency on Thursday. Take nothing for granted.

    Both votes SNP.

  11. Ruby says:

    ‘UK voters fear Scottish independence more than Brexit, poll finds’

    I read the above article in the hope of finding out why UK voters fear Scottish Independence but there is no info.

    It would be great if a Herald journalist could ask the 73% who fear Scottish Independence what it is they are afraid of.

    Even better if the Herald could conduct a poll asking why Unionist are so terrified of having a 2nd referendum!

  12. ronnie anderson says:

    @ mike cassidy Massie must hiv shrunk 6 inches wie the weight of aw they Dunce Caps he wears.

  13. Giving Goose says:

    The issue with Media commentators like Massie (and it includes virtually all of them) is that they cannot see beyond the current Establishment game of Monopoly (or refuse to see beyond it).

    Trouble for them is that there is an additional player on the board but to them it’s an invisible piece (or they refuse to see).

    What is worrying are the comments about Democracy. It’s almost as if Democracy is limited to an Establishment agenda and when it doesn’t suit that agenda then Democracy can be abandoned. The rules will only be applied if the Establishment is winning and abandoned when they are not winning.

    I’ve always been of the opinion that the UK is a “Controlled Democracy” very like Putin’s Russia.

    The big problem for the Establishment operation in Scotland is that the Establishment vote is split 3 ways. They would be better to just have one Establishment party, with one leader. Call it the Unionist Party and be done with the pretence of having separate parties named Labour, LibDem and Conservative. Just lump it all together and stop kidding the electorate.

  14. Provost Sludden says:

    There is a word for your article Alex and that word is pish.

    Just like your mate Anas, you only got a job because of your dad.

  15. Ruby says:

    I never usually read anything by Alex Massie but since it has been posted on Wings I have read the excerpt from his article.

    He seems to be suggesting that people can’t be trusted to make decision that governments should decide.

    It sounds as if Alex Massie is a fan of fascism.

    I would love to know how political parties decide on their policies. Do they ever consult the public or do they think sod them they are only voters?

  16. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Giving Goose

    I nominate Anas Sarwar for the dubious honour of leading a united Unionist bloc through the next Scottish Parliament. Should be fun.

  17. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Its obvious that Willie Rennie has touched a nerve.
    He makes a valid point about ‘Democracy’ and that is, before you take part in a vote you must accept the outcome of that vote whether you win or lose.

  18. Ali says:

    It’s Oor Willie that has a problem with democracy – 14% Tory vote and another Tory government. Liberal? maybe. Democrat? Not so much

  19. heraldnomore says:

    Bracing myself for right wing zoomer Julia Hartley Brewer discussing possible threat of another Scottish Indy Ref looming being discussed on Talk Radio right now.

    Her opening gambit of ‘God forbid’ let’s us know what’s coming. Fasten seat belts.

  20. Capella says:

    I see from his scant wiki entry that he resides in Edinburgh. It is a very remote place which may be why his dispatches are so ill informed. But the most likely explanation is that he was drunk when he wrote it.
    Nobody could write a headline “Rennie’s dig at Sturgeon ignites campaign” while sober.

  21. Marie Clark says:

    I think Mr Massie and his ilk are in severe need of removing their blinkers.

    They have no idea whatsoever about what is going on in Scotland, or, indeed, how we Scots think. Mr Massie, I have no need to be instructed about democracy, or how I should vote. I do fine by myself on that score thank you very much.I am an adult of almost seventy years and I’ve learned a lot about life and politics along the way.

    I look at what the unionist parties are offering, and it’s not very much. I widnae send any o’ them tae the shoaps fur the messages, never mind try and run the country.

    So Mr Massie, thanks, but no thanks. Now go away like a good chap and gies peace.

  22. FatCandy says:

    NEW FLASH! Green Party labelled anti-democratic for obsessing over environmental issues!

  23. Almannysbunnet says:

    “Rennie ignites campaign?” sorry this is simply not possible on any level. He believes “the SNP’s independence obsession is anti democratic.” One idiot writing about another idiot! WTF are these people drinking?

    Nah I much prefer Paul Kavanagh’s take on Wee Wullie.

    no one gives a toss what Wullie thinks about anything, except possibly his views on the timetable of the number 17 bus from Cowdenbeath to Kelty. But then you can get an app for your mobile for that, which means that Wullie is the first party leader in recorded history who could be replaced by a mobile phone notification without anyone noticing. The Wulliapp is recognisable by the sound of its droning hum, which not coincidentally sounds very like the engine of an Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 double decker. Unlike the bus though, Wullie doesn’t meet emissions standards, as he spouts far more in way of brain damaging rubbish than a diesel engine, and he also carries far less on top.
    Come to think of it you could swap Alex Massie’s name for Willie and it would be just as apt.

  24. Ruby says:

    Capella says:
    3 May, 2016 at 11:10 am

    I see from his scant wiki entry that he resides in Edinburgh.

    Ruby replies

    I bump into him quite often in the supermarket he always seems to have just come from the swimming pool as his hair is always wet.

  25. Kennedy says:

    Asking the public a question is anti democratic. Eh???

    Surely if most of the public are against Scotland governing itself they will vote accordingly.

    SNP/SNP = Hello Nicola we are ready for independence!

    SNP/ANOther = Hud on Nicola we are only half ready!

    SNP being the the only chance we have of being asked the democratic question!

    my tuppence worth.

  26. HandandShrimp says:

    Alex is indulging in a wee bit of reductio ad absurdum.

    It is not beyond the wit of human understanding to realise that if there is a strong and consistent indication that people want something that is a founding principle of the SNP then it is more likely than not that the SNP will act upon it.

    It would be no different if a Euro Sceptic Tory party were elected and it was clear that the mood had swung firmly to an Exit vote. No one would be surprised if such a government held a second EU referendum.

    However, of course the constitution matters as does respect for my vote. If I were to vote for a unionist party I have little doubt that they would shout from the roof tops that this was a vindication of their unionist position and not support for their policies. I am not prepared to have my vote so disrespected.

  27. Macart says:

    The longer they remain in the dark, the better IMO. Right now, simply shouting rude words on social media or writing columns of empathy free crap telling us all what a bunch of dim, gullible heathens we are is working wonders in terms of motivation.

  28. brian Adams says:

    Alex Massie/intellectual flatulence

  29. Capella says:

    @ Ruby
    his hair is always wet
    Perhaps it always rains on Alex Massie. That would explain his perpetual glumness. Or maybe he feels he has to “freshen up” before sneaking out to the supermarket to stock up?

    See Alex, we can all indulge in snidey innuendo. But it’s not journalism!

  30. DerekM says:

    Never let the facts get in the way of a SNP bad story.

    You would think they would have figured out by now that its not the SNP who`s party is incapable of government.

    They would blame us for that but the reality is their parties are full of non event politicians.

    The people of Scotland want a strong Scottish government and will no longer tolerate dead wood politicians.

    Pull your socks up yoons or get lost thats your choice,i would start by saying you are sorry for trying to screw us over and then push for devomax that you promised,failure to do so will result in p45`s.

    And Massie is a chump.


    @ mike cassidy

    Dont do it Mike you have no idea how much it cost me sending out dunce caps to yoons,i had to give it up there was so many they bankrupted me lol

  31. Stravaiger says:

    Massie is one of those to whom democracy (or any concept, for that matter) is a great thing when it suits him and a terrible one when it doesn’t. To think like that requires the ability to hold multiple inconsistent views at the same time. Now, there’s nothing too unusual about that, but the sad thing is that this sort of person is paid good money to put these rather muddled thoughts down on paper and disseminate them to anyone foolish enough to listen to them.

  32. Ruby says:

    What does Alex Massie do for a living?

    How much money can you make writing a blog & a few articles in the newspapers?

    Is his blog crowdfunded?

    He went to Glenalmond College perhaps that is where he learned about democracy.

  33. Papadox says:

    Is the UK state frightened of indyref2 or are they trying to force one while they still believe they can win it?
    IMHO I believe they want either SNP to state no second ref or to force the issue while they believe they can win it.
    Should the SNP be daft enough to go for it when they probably won’t win then Westminster English MPs will DEMAND that parliament outlaw another referendum for the next 30 years to prevent this becoming a never endum.
    Now that could be a very very serious situation, but Westminster would have the whip hand as far as parliament is concerned and international law, I believe. From little acorns….?

  34. Big Jock says:

    The unionists are democratic. It’s just that their form of democracy only includes the 55% who voted no. The rest of us should not have a say in the future, as we didn’t agree with the unionists.

    It’s a strange form of democracy but it works for the likes of Massie. How someone with any intelligence can vote Tory in Scotland is beyond belief. It’s the party of the right wing,blue rinse nimbies. Even if you have a shred of decency you wouldn’t inflict Tories on Scotland.

  35. Davy says:

    I saw that Alex Massie on TV once and I thought what a dick, glad to see I was not wrong.

  36. Dan Huil says:

    Rennie must be on cloud nine after reading Massie’s “ignite” comment. Rennie must be thinking to himself, to paraphrase Peter Kay, “well they used to say they wouldn’t piss on me if I was on fire; now I believe they would”.

  37. tartanarse says:

    Perhaps after he’s penned his latest shite he feels dirty and has a shower, sitting in it, rocking and weeping at what the big boys have forced him to do.

    Or it could be that he’s a selfish establishment cunt and the wet look gel is in fact establishment goo. He does look like a zinc drinker to me.

  38. NeoconNat says:

    Yes, good article, Rev. Well done.

    Massie of course is completely useless with numbers as evinced.

    By my reckoning the SNP are likely to be up 5% on their share of constituency votes and down about 3 or 4% on regional votes. These figures mean very little but they do give an indication.

    My guess is we win about 55 seats on the constituencies which leaves us needing 10 from the lists but that isn’t easy when you consider we are losing and down on second votes.

    If Labour achieve 20% in the constituency voting nationwide then I thought that would mean they had dropped about 12% since 2011. I don’t have notes or time so can’t check.

    Second votes could hammer us if they go to other parties that probably won’t even get a seat.

    The big unknown unknown is turnout, weather or anything could influence that.


    If a poor turnout results in 5 out of every 100 voters staying at home, and 2 of those would have voted SNP, it would be impossible for the SNP to win a majority.

  39. Jimbo says:

    Apparently in BritNat twisted logic, not voting for a Unionist party is undemocratic – and wanting your country to be independent is unpatriotic.

  40. Provost Sludden says:

    Just received a leaflet from Finlay Carson (Tory, Galloway and West Dumfries), saying “Decision time – me or the SNP!”

    Decision made – SNP


  41. Alan Weir says:

    ‘Dunce Caps’ are being distributed around freely today. This is an anti-Scottish phrase, or at least an anti-Scotus phrase. It is a jibe against the the great Scottish philosopher John Duns Scotus (not to be confused with John Scotus Eriugena) by his opponents, employed to ridicule him as a numpty. We should no more use that phrase than use ‘beyond the pale’ (where the Irish lived, beyond the Anglo-Norman Pale) as a derogatory term.

  42. Proud Cybernat says:

    Massie – new one ripped.

  43. One_Scot says:

    ‘Alex Massie/intellectual flatulence’

    I’m not so sure, I just think he’s full of shit.

  44. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Big Jock,
    There is only one form of democracy, unionists don’t have a different form of democracy than nationalists. Both participated in the same democratic process back in 2014. A founding principle of democracy is that if you participate you accept the result. This is the reason Willie Rennie accused Nicola Sturgeon of being anti democratic. It is a valid statement.

  45. winifred mccartney says:

    SNP X2

    willie rennie ‘snp anti-democratic’ only 2 words to say ALISTAIR CARMICHAEL

    SNP X2

  46. Graeme Borthwick says:

    Massie, Oliver, The Twins (Ruthie and Kezie), Lady Moan etc are all into Scottish Bashing to line their pockets and pick up a Gong. It is very easy money.

  47. galamcennalath says:

    “anti democratic”

    Wit? In the UK, with Westminster?

    Where governments can achieve absolute power with barely more than a third of the votes.

    Where the allocation of seats bares little relationship to the proportions in which people vote.

    Where the upper house is voted in by nobody.

    Where religious leaders from one sect are given guaranteed seats.

    Where partners to the Union are extremely unequal.

    Where one partner is treated like a ‘step bairn’ with fewer rights.

    When anyone want to highlight the anti-democratic nature of UK politics – the SNP, the Scottish Government, and Holyrood shouldn’t even feature in their long list!

  48. Dan Huil says:

    Unionist democracy; remember the 40% rule in 1979.

  49. Another Union Dividend says:

    It’s the SNP’s opponents who are going on and on about another referendum. Nicola Sturgeon has said that she would need to see public opinion running at around 60% in favour of independence before calling for another referendum, which only Westminster can grant.

    Holyrood could only hold a non binding consultative referendum.

    The phrase “A once in a generation opportunity” has a very different meaning from a once in a generation event.

    However several things have changed since September 2014 including:

    In an STV interview in March 2016, the former Governor of the Bank of England, Lord Mervyn King, said that it would have been perfectly feasible for an independent Scotland to continue using the pound and criticised HM Treasury for getting involved in politics. During the last referendum Scots were told that we would be out of the EU if we voted for independence now we could be taken out if the EU against our will. Also all sorts of UK promises over Shipbuilding, renewable energy / carbon capture etc have turned out to be lies.

    In the run up to the referendum polling day we were promised “near federal” powers by Gordon Brown and all three UK Party leaders via the infamous “Vow”;

    But the new powers coming into force next year do not include the following:

    Setting a National Minimum Wage
    Taxing Oil and Gas Revenue
    Setting Inheritance Tax
    Changing Taxes on Fuel
    Changing Duty on Tobacco
    Changing Duty on Alcohol
    Varying Statutory Sick Pay
    Changing the Equality Act
    Setting or amending VAT

  50. Valerie says:

    Rennie would have more success in igniting his farts.

    That would give Ian B another photo opp for his collection.

    Of course we have the wrong type of democracy in this country. We should be having the type of democracy that gets the Tories elected on 26% of the vote, and now we know they got that via acting illegally on their election expenditure.

    But you won’t hear that on the Beeb, due to the transparent democracy we live in.

    I’m off out to get my leaflets finished.

    Get out there, folks.

  51. Tinto Chiel says:

    Paradox says:
    3 May, 2016 at 11:35 am
    “Is the UK state frightened of indyref2 or are they trying to force one while they still believe they can win it?”

    Both, I think. Recently we had Mr McKenna, another freeloader on the Independence sunami, and as anti-SNP as they come, exhorting us to go for it, which naturally creates suspicion.

    Unionists are so scared because they used all their specious ammo up last time and didn’t think there would ever be the prospect of a rerun. We’ll still face the usual tactics next time but they will have less and less effect.

    Oliver on Sunday, Massie on Tuesday, so it’ll soon be time for Niall “Independence is a terrible idea” Ferguson on Thursday. And remember, he thought Kissinger was an idealist.

    Not a good advert for private schools.

  52. Breeks says:

    Nice one Fat Candy @ 11.15. Made me smile.

    Here’s a throwaway thought; lets assume for a minute the SNP get their outright majority, happy days yes, but how happy would you be if Rise also nicked a list seat from the Lib Dems or even shut them out completely? Or the other side of the coin, how sad would you feel if Rise missed out on a seat by a whisker to Willie “I think it’s important” Rennie?

    I do intend to vote SNP x 2, but I’m not so keen on the scorched earth policy for everyone else outside the ramparts. Tories, Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP, sure thing, fire away; but aimed shots please. We do have friendly patrols out there.

  53. Dr Jim says:

    Funny place Scotland

    We have clever people, clever Diddies, and well, just Diddies

    Why are our newspapers crammed with the second and third categories

  54. Karmanaut says:

    I see he’s not quite grasped the difference between a 50p top tax rate across the whole UK, and a 50p top tax rate in one part of the UK.

  55. K1 says:

    Cause aw ‘the clever people’ are in the Independence Movement.

  56. Brian MacLeod says:

    The media don’t have a clue what is happening in Scotland because they are blinded by their prejudices and keep talking to the same old unionist sycophants.

    They do not hear the true voices of Scotald.

  57. Training Day says:

    Somewhere in Fife there is a stile without an occupant, and a strand of hay resting on it waiting to be chewed. The return of Willie Rennie to his natural vocation is awaited..

  58. Auld Rock says:

    Once again it’s Massie who is ‘blethering’. Thank goodness few north of the border read his rag.

    Auld Rock

  59. Capella says:

    There is only one form of democracy
    The Athenians – who did not allow women and slaves to vote – cast pebbles into a jar. Sometimes they made a silly decision so reconvened and voted again.

    We have a limited form of democracy. We do not have equal access to the means of communication. We do not have equal access to finance for campaigns. Therefore it is easy for the oligarchs to corrupt the process as happened in the Indyref.

    Because the rules were broken by the last minute “Vow”, the result should have been declared null and void. But we don’t control the legal process either.

    To paraphrase Gandhi – democracy would be a good idea. We don’t need to take lectures on democracy from people like Alex Massie who clearly doesn’t support it.

  60. AndyH says:

    If the article had stated

    ‘Rennie ignites own fart’

    Then the meaning and content would have been very similar.

  61. Hugh Barclay says:

    Yeh the press in Scotland certainly do not represent the views of the masses but Massie and his ilk do represent a bygone era.

    One would think with so called intelligent folk, they would realise the now toxic Unionist narrative they are shoving is heading of a cliff.

    Dumb Fucks.

  62. Sunniva says:

    I think it could be a very different parliament though. Agree the balance of power is unlikely to alter.

    But, Anas Sarwar, Adam Tomkins and David Coburn are all likely to get in on the list and will be far more vocal in opposing the SNP than Dugdale and Rennie have ever been. Partly because the media will eagerly lap up their nonsense. The Lib Dems are likely to disappear behind the Greens. I wonder if they will even hold Orkney and Shetland?

    Prepare for a far greater media onslaught and more unionist bitterness and intransigence.

  63. Another Union Dividend says:

    So called electoral “expert” guy on Radio Scotland trying to claim second vote for SNP in Lothian list is wasted. Given that Edinburgh is the most pro Unionist city in Scotland there is no guarantee that SNP will win all seats in this region.

  64. Sunniva says:

    Another thing that is bothering me is that we don’t get the vote out. There are far too many people assuming it will be a shoo in for the SNP. Especially the soft SNP voters. Any slippage and it could very easily fall the other way, because the unionists are trying very, very, hard to get their vote out now. I am getting two election bits of mail from Ruth Davidson every day for the past week in Edinburgh Southern.

  65. Peter Macbeastie says:

    It’s always nice when you suspect someone’s talking crap… and then you come here and find yep, instinct entirely accurate.

    Massie and Gardham, separated at birth but with a common thread of wired to the moon unionism marking them as basically the same person.

    In Massie’s case I’m not even sure it’s the moon of this planet. Could by one of Jupiter’s eighteen or so…..

  66. ian says:

    How the f**ck do these people get their jobs?”Geeza a job,i can do,that!There’s a serious intelectual deficite with the media and the UKOK brethern.

  67. carjamtic says:

    Twisted fire starter,fires off,another ‘arrow of desire’ from his ‘bow of burning gold’.

    Yoon archery is not as popular as it used to be up here,well maybe after a game of croquet or polo.

    Settle down yoon……relax,help yourself to a bucket of ‘vindaloo’ and Outlander is on Amazon you know,forgot you only deal in (ahem) reality.

    Anyways your chariot of desire has been ordered for Friday….join your pals down the Waterloo Road,for a good old knees up.

    P.S. Don’t spare the horses.

    P.P.S. Did you know a certain long haired tv host is cutting in on your ‘action’.


  68. Robert Graham says:

    A comment at 11.08 Wullie has a point ,ok please explain the point of Wullie because f/kd if i know .
    Well I read massies drivel , did i understand it , NO .
    Did massie understand it , have to get back to you on that one .
    On a wider issue the vote on Thursday this is not in the bag i spoke to a few “YES” voters this morning and they were wavering on the second vote , i guess this constant SNP win again no problem has confused a few folk , my reply was NO SNP majority, NO independence vote simple as that , we have NO plan “B” , tha last one out switch off the lights cos we are f/kd .The End .

  69. Another Union Dividend says:

    Re Sunniva @ 12.40

    The Hootsman reports this morning that:

    The Scotland in Union organisation, which has been set up to campaign for the UK, now says it will also launch a “summer tour” to make its case across the country.

    Campaign manager Andrew Skinner is to visit all 32 Scottish council areas this summer Director Alastair Cameron said: “We intend to campaign to ensure support for independence stays well below Nicola Sturgeon’s majority, and if she is fortunate enough to be elected as First Minister, then she will be under pressure to focus on the day job.”

  70. scunner says:

    “I saw that Alex Massie on TV once and I thought what a dick”

    So he’s voting Tory now? I’m almost sure I saw him on the box wi’ Torquil, two days before the GE, both mumpin’ away predicting a Labour victory both up here and across the UK. Changed his colours since.

    Talking gash then and now.

    As for Wullie Rennie, can’t see him without thinking of “Tam” from Still Game, probably the sleekit, insincere aura of the man. I’m praying to the gods he’s gone on Friday morn, but the wife thinks he’ll be hingin’ on limpet-like.

    Once voted for the Liberals, back when we thought they we’re offering a more lefty GE manifesto than Labour (always voted SNP for Holyrood).

    I’m probably way out, but I just don’t believe the Libs are all Yoons, of course the precious little that’s left of them now might well be. I just don’t feel he represents his party with his outraged over-the-top Yoonery…

  71. Inverclyder says:

    Sunniva @ 12:40pm

    If Coburn gets in on the list will wait and see how long it is before he is ejected by the Presiding Officer.

    He’ll be like that wee boy in school that would disrupt the class and end up with paper and crayons to keep him occupied.

    A fool but a dangerous fool.

  72. Sunniva says:

    @Another Union Divided. Yes, I’m in Edinburgh Southern and I think it’s a definite risk giving the list vote to another party, because sitting SNP MSP Jim Eadie is defending a narrow majority. If he didn’t get in on the constituency vote, and most SNP voters in Edinburgh Southern took a punt on another pro-indy list party, hoping to increase the pro-indy majority, there might not be enough list votes for the SNP to win most of the regional seats. Remember there are several unionist parties competing for these and they are bound to get at least one of the five.

  73. Les Wilson says:

    Someone explain to me where Ruthy get all the money for her campaign? She was trying to crowdfund it, I have not seen the result of that. Somehow I think it will not have been enough to have all those leaflets made and posted.
    Then all the other parts of a campaign, that have costs.

    There can only be one answer, being subsidised by Tory HQ in London.

  74. HaggisHunter says:

    Looks like a fine article to me. Unionist journalist, doesn’t kin what he’s talking about, Brit Establishment fails to understand because the whole rotten structure is too arrogant to ask any questions, they just boil with hatred and tell us and the rest of the world about Nasty Nats

  75. G H Graham says:

    Alex Massie appears to be saying that governments should not reflect the democratic will of the people it purports to represent if it’s Scottish & not Tory.

    Please correct me if I read his propaganda puff piece incorrectly.

  76. Clootie says:

    …Massie is writing what his readership wish to read. Do not confuse him with a journalist…they are a much rarer breed.

    I also think Alex Massie should place a plastic sheet over his desk chair before he writes an article. The only possible explanation for the content of this piece is that the chair has sucked his brain out of his arse!

  77. Tam Jardine says:

    Wee vox pox on John Beattie’s programme. Well, I say vox pox- the opinion of one voter alone.

    Talking to SNP Glasgow list candidate Suzanne MacLaughlin. One discussion featured with one voter and would you adam and eve it- its a labour voter who feels let down by Nicola, is listening to Kezia and won’t engage any further.

    What are the chances, eh! So dodgy that John Beattie has to make a wee explanation afterwords… just one of they coincidences!

    Its the thing about BBC radio Shortbread vox pops- they send the dude with the furry mike out and only record a single exchange! Is that how radio works?

  78. One_Scot says:

    OMG, the Yoon mentality, call the police, I don’t like the SNP.

    Really, we need to get that vote out on Thursday and get rid of these clowns.

  79. Voting for Self Determination is akin to Capital Punishment, curbing Immigration, or capping welfare payments?
    What a pile of arrogant superior shite, from Massie.
    Any party can include the Death Penalty, Immigrant Bans, slashing welfare, in their manifestos, and if they win the day, can implement their policies.
    It’s happening now, Mr Massie.
    Of course you assert that we’re not really bothered about policies, or fine detail, that we are just cultishly following the SNP on a happy clappy feel good wave of optimism.

    You arrogant little man.

    Willie Rennie couldn’t ignite a firelighter with a flaming torch. He came across as a bad tempered little Moodie caricature of himself the other night. WE shall be exercising democracy on Thursday all right. Worry not.
    We are not going away.
    How come Massie’s not coining it in Appearance Money on Scotland 2015? Have Magnus and David T stolen his berth?
    Time was that he was never off the box reminding us of how shite a country we are.
    They really are kakking themselves.

  80. Sunniva says:

    @Inverclyder. The damage that Coburn can do to our cause and Scotland’s reputation is out of all proportion to the votes he will attract. Voting for him is a Brexit anti-SNP f*** you vote from unionists who don’t care a monkey’s for the Scottish parliament or Scottish government or Scottish welfare for that matter, they just want to register a protest vote against the SNP and indy. Much parliamentary time will be taken up refuting this time waster and much column inches devoted to showing that the SNP doesn’t have it all their way. He is a wrecker, who will only create bitterness. Ditto Tomkins and Sarwar. They have nothing constructive to offer.

  81. brian watters says:

    seems the UK/Scottish media cant see what is going on in Scotland because they are still blinded by bitterness and hatred. The vitriol dripping from almost every journalist pen in a nations Press against it’s own democratically elected government with an approval rating through the roof and a popular leader must be a one off anywhere in the world

  82. Joemcg says:

    Think they are so frightened of a 2nd vote is because they know the games up. They threw everything at it last time lies intimidation bullying and with no massive lead to start on it all points to a yes.

  83. Sunniva says:

    Massie. Glenalmond. Private education.

    Back in the 90s Alan Massie was skint and couldn’t afford the school fees. So he sent a begging letter around his friends in the Scottish cultural establishment for a financial contribution towards his kid’s private school fees. My other half happened to see this and thought: the cheek of the man.

    It’s how the Scottish cultural establishment works, looking after its own.

  84. Robert Peffers says:

    I’ve just been reviewing the BBC’s news, both online and broadcast. I am sitting here with sore sides from excessive, uncontrollable, laughter.

    Like Massie the London propaganda machine has its collective knickers in a very tight and painful twist, or to put that in the Scottish manner. Thir drawers ir in a richt muckle fankle.

    We have news items like :- “Labour suspends Israel row councillors”, all very commendable, but Labour have never taken any action whatsoever, (other than to cheer them on), against the many Labour Hecht Heid Anes, (including Labour Lords, Barons and peers), who have compared the SNP to the NAZIs and to various other unsavoury dictatorship leaders.

    So don’t anger the Jews or Israelis – but, “The Sweaties”, are fair game.

    Then I note the BBC first headline is:- “Title win an amazing feeling, Ranieri”.

    Yet Scottish football has such stories today as the relegation of Dundee United. The next battles for promotion games between Raith Rovers and Hibs and not to mention all the other play-off games.

    Yet these do not figure in the main news headlines, even on Radio Scotland. You have to go to the text sports pages and down through the several levels of English sporting news to, “Sport/Around the UK/Scotland”, to get to the Scottish football news.

    Rev Stu hits a very large nail with this article and he drives it home with one blow to its head.

    We should frame this little bit of Wings prose and hang it on every winger’s wall –

    The rise of the SNP has so bewildered the metropolitan commentariat that even almost a decade after the party won its first Scottish election pundits still barely know which way to face to confront it. </I

  85. Almannysbunnet says:

    ref “his hair is always wet.”

    Probably because he has to shampoo it every time he pulls it out of his erse.

  86. Dunks says:

    It’s all very cosy here with us all in the same gang but believe me people, the yoons, as we speak, are plotting the biggest ever Scottish election voting raid ever seen.

    People are being escorted and hounded to vote anything but SNP on Thursday like never before. Turnout will be much higher than anything seen previously so it is imperative you speak to as many SNP voters as possible and escorts them, if necessary, to the polling station.

    Do not wake up on Friday morning feeling as low as you did on 19th September. If the SNP do not gain an overall majority, the fat lady will be singing extremely loudly for a very long time to come. Don’t let apathy be our enemy.

    Let’s do this.
    SNP x 2

  87. orri says:

    Reluctantly I’ll label Coburn “The Prince of Mince”. He looks like a sack of mince, he talks mince and having had the dubious pleasure of seeing him he actually minces. If anyone who can come up with another two mince like qualities we can upgrade him to the Quince of Mince.

  88. Capella says:

    @ Another Union Dividend – I see from Alistair Cameron’s twitter feed that he retweets Brian Spanner tweets, now renamed Brian Spantisemitic. Exquisite Britnat taste.

  89. Dr Jim says:

    Forgot to mention earlier, Massie is a Sneery Liberal Lefty Dem who’s voting Tory tactically against the SNP, so to question anybody else’s reasons as to whom they might vote for tactically or otherwise is just hypocritical

    Ooops, forgot that’s what a Lib Dem is

    Quick shout out to Jo Swinson on my patch up to her old personal letter tricks for the old folk again telling us how close the Lib Dems are to getting elected and how she can depend on us, and it’s even written on peach coloured paper, which she mentions she picked specially to remind us

    The Joseph Rowntree Foundation must be out a right few bob on this one as all the letters in East Dunbartonshire are stamped and Royal Mail delivered

    Jo Swinson I might add is not the candidate, she’s the one we booted out last year at the GE it’s a woman called Katy Gordon who apparently isn’t important enough to have a Foty of or much of a mention in any literature

    But they’re very proud of her (Sigh)

  90. Dr Jim says:

    @Robert Peffers….Sport

    That’ll be in the news where you are

  91. orri says:

    Apart from the obvious failure to gain a majority on their own merit there’s the obvious temptation that if it’s a minority with Green support that they might be drawn in by the equivalent of a private members bill to change the voting method used by Holyrood to be more representative.

    Proportionality will be yesterdays news if it gives an SNP administration with a majority of the vote a majority of the seats in line with the votes they got. In will come some modification that might coincidentally offer the Greens a larger number of seats.

    Just as, at least so I’ve heard, hemp growers in the USA were conned into outlawing their own cash crop the Greens might not realise that for all they might have more seats there’s less chance that they’ll be needed to support a minority government.

  92. Sunniva says:

    @Dunks. Totally agree. We must do everything between now and Thursday to get our vote out.

  93. Big Jock says:

    Mackinnon at whatever time you posted: “Willie Rennie Made A Valid Statement”.

    Can we get that put in lights! We Wullie and valid…good god. A man who pretended he got rid of tuition fees.A party with Six MSP’s should dictate to a party with 65+ bout the future of Scotland.

    Yoons do provide entertainment on here!

  94. orri says:

    Obviously if the electoral calculus is such that some mad suicide bid by Labour leads them to form a coalition government with the other two unionist parties, or three if UKIP have and MSP, then I’d be less than surprised at the electoral system being adjusted to make it harder for the SNP to gain an overall majority in future elections.

  95. ArtHetty says:

    I had an email from ‘rights info’ telling me it’s ‘Press Freedom Day’ today.

    Press freedom UKok style being a free for all state run media propaganda tool, on the hour every hour.

  96. Martin Wood says:

    I have fairly straightforward solution I use…

    1) Don’t buy the papers – why fund this nonsense
    2) Don’t click the websites – no revenue for them
    3)“If you don’t read the newspaper, you’re uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you’re mis-informed.” – 1st part is no longer true as the information is now available on the web – 2ns part is true
    4) cancel the BBC licence.

    I have and now only stream or use catch up – and do not miss having to sit down at a set time to watch a particular program.
    If you want to catch a program as it is broadcast – there are a large numbr of streaming sites out there (Kodi) Downloading is illegal – streaming from a source is not as set out by the European Court of Justice… want live BBC…you can get it without breaking the Law

  97. Breeks says:

    Anybody do crosswords?

    Rennies dig at Sturgeon ignites campaign…

    Reads like a crossword clue; an anagram of campaign… hmmm… toughie.

    Mind you, it is the Times. Answer might be in latin or Greek, or some obscure “I went to Eton” dialect.

  98. Calum says:

    A majority of greens in the poll would vote “No”. Anyone who truly supports independence will vote SNPx 2.

  99. Clapper57 says:

    It must be really frustrating for the yoon politicians who constantly attack enforce the SNP when what they really really want to do is to attack the voters who vote for them.

    However they know that potentially this would be political suicide. How delicious it is to read and hear their frustration at their own inability to be able to truly express their anger and derision at voters who still believe in and vote for the SNP.

    Perhaps we should take time to bask in the glow of their combined exasperation and see the real victory we have won in that no matter what they say and how they say it they cannot convince or convert those of us who are unwilling to respond to their lies and UKOK mantra.

    They are trying to put us back in the box , lock it and hold the key but this box is open and I don’t think they are the ones who will close it….and Rennie it is not for you to decide what is and is not democratic in this country, it is for the people of Scotland to decide who THEY want to democratically elect and whether THEY want to hold another Indy referendum…..and so far they have chosen to elect SNP and hopefully will eventually, by a majority, also choose Independence.

    SNP X 2

  100. ScottishPsyche says:

    What is undemocratic is the idea of a constitutional agreement made on our behalf to lock us into the UK forever.

    This is why the Tories and the establishment will make every effort to get Adam Tompkins into Holyrood and also allow him to stay on at Glasgow University. Tompkins is already involved in the setting up of this yet no one in MSM thinks this is worth commenting on.

    However, saying that we should be allowed to choose when is best to go for another Indyref turns Massie and co into gibbering wrecks.

  101. Bill Hume says:

    “The rise of the SNP has so bewildered the metropolitan commentariat that even almost a decade after the party won its first Scottish election pundits still barely know which way to face to confront it”.

    Possibly so, but there is another explanation.

    The metropolitan commentariat are like a person in a strange and spooky room, trying to sleep by hiding under the blankets.

    What we are seeing is not a MSM trying to get to grips with the new Scottish politics, it’s the MSM cowering under the duvet and hoping the nasty SNP will leave them alone.

    I smell fear.

  102. ScottishPsyche says:

    “I suggest ways in which this should happen–by rolling them up into a single, powerful, department for the constitution sitting at the heart of Government. Much of this needs to be placed on a formal, statutory (that is, legal) footing. The informality of the UK’s inter-governmental relations has been part of the problem in recent years, and needs to change.”

    This is from Tomkins’ (not Tompkins) North Britain blog. The stuff this guy has been up to is unbelievable.

  103. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dr Jim @ 13:27,

    Please, it’s not The Joseph Rowntree Foundation, it’s the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust. Important distinction. The JRF is an honourable non-political charity that supports good causes and deserves everyone’s support. The JRRT is none of those things.

  104. Dal Riata says:

    O/T and a wee bit long, sorry!

    Right, to hell with it, I’m back!

    I haven’t commented on Wings since Stu produced his article regarding the Gaelic language, and, not being too complimentary about us who do speak Gaelic. I was absolutely furious at the accusations and didn’t hold back when letting my feelings be known. And that was my last visit… as a commenter.

    And yet, despite the trauma of that day, I have still been a lurker almost every day since. Yeah, I was pissed-off for a good while but, undeniably, Stu still produces some of the best articles and commentary on Scottish politics within the online pro-Scottish independence blogs and websites. (Note the exclusion of the MSM. Their ‘journalism’ is just paid-for trolling trash.)

    If your head and heart are set on Scottish independence then Wings is one of *the* sites to visit, even if it’s just to escape the cascade of anti-Scottish shite that the MSM produces, and find reassurance from the good commenters here that the fight for independence will never die until Scotland is, at last, independent.

    And since? Well, back to the Far East for work – and play too, of course! But always spending as much free time as possible on the internet following Scotland’s path to its ultimate destiny of independence… 8 hours ahead!

    Ok. And? Well, there’s this event called the Scottish Election 2016 which takes place on May 5th – as you may know! I had decided some weeks ago that – yes, it’ll be expensive and yes, it’ll be exhausting, however… – I would go back to Scotland to vote.

    People said, and are still saying, I was mad, spending all that money on flights and what have you, being jet-lagged, wasting my time and money, blah-blah-blah… And, aye, maybe they’re right. But there’s nothing quite like going into that booth to physically mark your X beside the SNP candidate (and on the list for SNP) and walk out again with a smile on your face knowing that you have done the right thing!

    Yes, I could have done the proxy vote thing. But while I am physically and financially able, I will return from wherever I am to actually be there and do it in person – cannae beat it! And staying up all night to watch the announcements being made should be a doddle, what with the jetlag still in effect!

    And anyway, this will be the fourth time to do this following the Scottish Election of ’11, IndyRef1 in ’14 and the General Election in ’15, so, although it doesn’t get any easier, the unknown unknowns are now more known knowns, as yer man Rumsfeld might have said!

    And now? Well I just got into Glasgow Airport today lunchtime, arriving at my abode not that long ago… jetlagged and exhausted! (And, by the way, who turned the temperature down? Christ almighty, it’s bloody freezing!) And right now, I’m doing what I said to myself I would do when I got back to Scotland – check myself back into Wings. Yes, I could have stayed away or just been a lurker forever more. But, I’m a fair guy and I’m willing to forgive Stu’s transgression against me and my country’s language and culture… but I won’t forget 😉

    So, then, here a mur, and it feels good to be back! Once I get some rest (and more clothes on!) it’ll be out the door and away to get involved with the campaigning with the local SNP group.

    And then, before I know it, it’ll be all over, and within a few days I’ll have to do the journey back again… and once more to be jetlagged and exhausted – but warmer! But while I’m here, the crack should be good, the SNP will hopefully do even better than expected and I’ll get to see friends and family. So, worth it? Absafuckinglutely!

    Anyway, cheers all! And so, back on topic….

  105. Cuilean says:

    Cameron was elected on a mere 36.7% of the UK popular vote. 63.3% of Brits did not vote Tory last year.

    Further. How many of the 36.7% voted Tory because they thought it was a vote to leave the EU? Roughly half. Let’s be generous and say 25% voted Tory in last year’s general election because they wanted an EU Referendum. That leaves 80% of Brits who did not vote for an EU Referendum. Yet Cameron called an EU Referendum, even though 80% of Brits did not vote for that in the GE last year.

    Why is Alex Massie who, unlike Ms Sturgeon, is only foisted on us, ironically undemocratically, via good-old-fashion tory nepotism (his dad is tory establishment journalist Allan Massie) not writing indignant screeds about the undemocratic EU Ref foisted on the vast majority of Brits and which they did not vote for?

  106. Jack Murphy says:

    Alex Massie—-I’ll be voting Labour [May 2015].
    Full article is behind The Times Paywall. 🙁

  107. I believe what we are witnessing from the unionists is their fear of the changes that has happened here in Scotland, because it has loosened their grip and control of our country.
    And they don’t like that.

    OT a new BMG poll for The Herald newspaper asked people to cite their “least preferred outcome” when faced with a choice between Scotland leaving the UK and Brexit.
    Of the 1,521 people polled, 68% said their least preferred was Scottish independence, with 32% choosing the UK leaving the EU.
    The findings suggest fears over the possible break up of the union could help keep the UK in Europe when it comes to June’s referendum.

  108. Capella says:

    @ Dal Riata – welcome back for the fun-fest, and remember – to err is human, to forgive divine.

    O/T (as journalism isn’t really the topic) RT has more on the TTIP leak of papers via Greenpeace with links to the docs.

  109. heedtracker says:

    Its just all so staggeringly dishonest, this current toryboy hoohaa, red and blue.

    In the year of our Lord 2015, last year, SNP did want to stand with Milliband’s Labour in coalition gov and a 50p top rate. Our chums in the south were having none of it.

    But this was the UK general election, across the whole of teamGB, not like this Thursday.

    A Scottish 50p top rate, in less than 10% of the UK economy, is a giant risk to the Scottish economy.

    The Vow turned out to be a load of fcuk all, except PAYE. But it was the only devo they gave up because its a giant stick to beat SNP Holyrood UKOK style, they hope and regardless of the economic damage PAYE tax hikes might cause.

    In only the UKOK Scotland region, could we have hard core toryboy’s like Massie raging away at Holyrood to tax him and his tory elite more.

    They’d poop their pants in Westminster if toryboy world shrieked hike our taxes we beg you you evel government.

    Not saying it couldn’t happen, maybe a UKOK snowball’s chance in hell.

  110. Cuilean says:

    Addendum to my above post @ 2.42 pm: ‘25%’ should read ‘20%’. Apologies.

  111. maxi says:

    Massie, Oliver and the rest of that ilk,just want to be in a winning gang. Well the rules have changed and the gangs who must be obeyed are finished in Scotland, There is a new kid on the block and we are never going to be taken in by unionist diatribe any longer. It might be early days, but get used to it as we are just starting a “forever “reign in Scottish politics.

  112. Dorothy Devine says:

    Some shocking headlines in the press today – unbelievably so, which is where they make a mistake!

    Regards Oor Wullie , does anyone else hear the Benny Hill music whenever he appears or is it only me?

    I have just had a flier thrust though my door claiming a certain SNP is racist and published a racist joke on her twitter account.It advises me not to vote for this person and no-one claims authorship but it is smartly produced .

    Anyone else received one?

  113. galamcennalath says:

    There was (past tense intentionally) middle ground. There were three main options: DevoWeak, DevoMax, and Indy.

    DevoMax has been sunk without any hope of refloating it now. This is despite the fact it was a significant feature of the NO win and had widespread support.

    The Unionists en masse have nailed their colours to the unstable mast of DevoWeak. And, this is despite about a quarter of voters being satisfied with this option.

    Meanwhile, voter opinion moves slowly to a majority for Indy.

    The problem for Unionists is many in their own ranks would agree with the above assessment! Frustration, anger, grievance, and bitterness is all they have left.

  114. MajorBloodnok says:

    Hi Dal Riata.

    Welcome back.

  115. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dal Riata –

    Welcome home.

    Did you forget to pack yer thermals?


  116. Cloggins says:

    Ruthie, Kez and Wullie seem to be unaware that if they are elected it is not for life so at the end of term the voters can kick them oot. A referendum should have the same limited validity and should be held every four years.

  117. NeoconNat says:

    So, Dal Riata, have you decided who you are voting yet?

  118. heedtracker says:

    Lost in pie charts time and hard core Conservative yoonster Kevrage is nice to follow because he says he’s loaded and yet, he’s still not demanded SNP hike his taxes to 50%.

    You’d think he would as its all the rage in toryboy Scotland, their determination to pay more taxes.

    Maybe it is just toryboy world in Scotland. First thing Cameron and co did in office was cut taxes for millionaires, or most of his cabinet

    Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 23h23 hours ago
    Kevin Hague Retweeted Neil MacKenzie
    the mental contortions people will go through to forgive the SNP’s underinvestment in health spending …

    Kevrage is a hoot. He’ll be out marching down the Royal Mile with lots of other toryboys and huge placards demanding more taxes, “What do we want? More taxes! When do we want them? Now!” “Ruthie, Ruthie, Ruthie, out, out, out!”

    I am over egging this one toryboy tax shyste in particualr, in their Scotland region:D

  119. Tinto Chiel says:

    Not really o/t. If you ever thought you had reached the depths of Yoon desperation and mendacity:

  120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ScottishPsyche @ 14:29,

    Tomkins (who will most likely be elected on the Tories’ Glasgow list) is one of the leading lights behind the proposition of a “new Act of Union”, together with many of the other usual suspects, Lord Ming the Merciless, Linda Colley, etc., etc.

    If SmithLite™ was all that the Unionists big it out to be, more reform would be totally unnecessary, of course, but this is clearly a desperate last-ditch attempt to thwart Scottish independence, “Vow Mk.2”, if you like, being warmed up to be nice and ready for indyref2.

  121. Nana says:


    I put a link up re TTIP this morning on the howling of the furies thread. Since then cirsium has provided some good ones especially a video by David Malone. Well worth watching.

  122. Valerie says:

    Hi Dal Riata

    Well done on the trip, and for helping out your local group, every bit helps.

    There are a couple of things I completely disagree with, in terms of the Revs opinion, Gaelic being one of them.

    Like you, though, I think what he does in forensic analysis, is what keeps me here, as well as some very funny posters.

  123. heedtracker says:

    Murdoch’s jock henchman thinks, 50p great, 60p too much. RISE and SSP could get a seat or two on Thursday, all thanks to tory media selling them so hard, but they dont want them anywhere near power though, shock.

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq May 2
    Just noticed this in the RISE manifesto: “Raise top rate of income tax from 45p in the pound to 60p – a 15 per cent increase.” Bless.

  124. Capella says:

    @ Nana Thanks for tip – have now set up the video for watching later.

    If Alex Massie is concerned to defend democracy perhaps he could write about the assault on democracy which is TTIP.

    The Pacific version has led to threatening language being used by Obama against China. Trade follows the flag and then the flag follows trade.

  125. tartanarse says:

    Breeks at 14.01

    It doesn’t quite use all the words but from:

    Rennies dig at Sturgeon ignites campaign, you can get the sentence:

    Sturgeons anti semite again.

    Don’t think it’s true, but hey who cares, stick it in a paper, it’ll be true by breakfast time.

  126. NeoconNat says:

    So, I decided to have a closer look at the leadership debate from Sunday which so many people argued was rigged. I didn’t think it was rigged at the time but after looking at it more closely I have changed my opinion. I also took some advice from someone in broadcasting and I have some experience myself in video production.

    1) The sound of unionist supporters clapping was definitely much louder — probably down to how and where the microphones were positioned but possibly through levels being adjusted too on certain mic’s. I intend to have the audio analysed further for signs of levels being increased whist broadcasting; wave-forms might reveal that.

    2) Normally when you cut to the crowd during applause etc. you would see who was clapping and who wasn’t. But when they did that the video was looking at the crowd from behind so that it was much harder to see. Very odd. The camera was also moving, sweeping around behind and above the audience. It’s almost as if they were trying to stop you from seeing who was applauding or how many. Despite this fishy camera-work, it is possible to see that only about one third of the total audience was clapping when an anti-SNP point was made.

    3) We also noticed a tendency to get the camera in tight with questioners which is odd. On most similar type shows when someone asks a question you see the audience and often see the people around the questioner. On Sunday most shots were too close so that the questioners more or less filled the screen. This is odd, definitely abnormal.

    Conclusion: Rigged to make it appear as if the vast majority there was against the SNP and against having another referendum. What’s brilliant, from a technical standpoint, is that the audience might have been evenly balanced and from their perspective everything would have been pretty normal — they wouldn’t have noticed the trick being played. Nobody there could or would have noticed.

    With the tight shots I think they were probably concerned that certain people in the audience might have been recognised as Labour Party plants or something. That’s a guess but how else would you explain it?

  127. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Valerie Homeless person sleeping in a cardboard box in the middle of the night, theres ah bolt of lightening & a clap of thunder & ah voice rings out, I am the lord thy god & have come to visit upon you I am the father the son & the holyghost & the homeless person says ,well I hope you,ve brought your ain cardboard box cause this is ah wanman box.

  128. orri says:

    The 40% rule just shows how far some in Westminster will go to deny any mandate to an elected government. In that case, apparently, the result was massaged to take into account the obvious problems. For all we know it was actually reached if the electoral register had been 100% accurate. Besides the obvious no longer alive or simply moved categories there was also the legally registered at more than one address one that if rife may have had a significant impact.

    How it effects us even to this day is that there are already murmurings that even the impressive 56/59 at the GE doesn’t count as the SNP hadn’t quite got 50% of the votes cast. If they had then the fall back position would be that it didn’t count as it wasn’t over 50% of the electoral roll.

    The way it works is that unless the SNP achieve something that it might do if we’re still stuck in this union and achieve over 50% of the electorate any mandate they have will be argued against. Simply put any condition dependent on a percentage of the potential vote is wide open to simply stuffing the roll with fake or duplicate entries. No need to fraudulently fill in ballots and risk getting caught. That’s why we should tell those who suggest any such requirement to get to fuck.

    They’re also being blatant at laying the foundation for a case that there’s some kind of quantum uncertainty about the SNP having a mandate for another referendum. To unionist voters it’s vote for another party to prevent the SNP from holding one. To SNP voters it’s we don’t care if you vote for them as they won’t have a mandate any way. End of the day they’ll point at the SNP having less than 50% on the list, ignore the Greens being pro indy and use that as a reason to ignore the wishes of the electorate.

  129. Ian Murray says:

    There was a typo in the headline it was meant to read

    “Rennie ignites Champaign” he won his go cart race against himself

    Massie pushing the “Too wee, too poor too stupid” meme

    Get the t shirts cranked out

    Too wee
    Too Poor
    Too Stupid
    But no too Feart

  130. Nana says:


    The latest TTIP revelation, this time telecommunications and digital rights.

  131. Tinto Chiel says:

    @orri: and no doubt they got away with murder in the count as well. The 40% of the TE rule was a outrageous piece of chicanery, ensuring that people like Hugh MacDiarmid effectively voted against devolution because he was probably still on the roll but had died before the vote.

    They will put every hurdle they can in our way and break all the rules to thwart us.

    Every vote counts on Thursday.

  132. Robert Graham says:

    mm you’re confusing me Neonconat @ 3.43 there you present a valid reasoned account of your observations regarding the leaders debate probably unnoticed by most here re camera angles etc.
    Then over the past few days all i seem to see is people replying to somthing you posted in not a very friendly way , indeed i was getting into the habit of simply page up or down when your username was mentioned , so either you have been hit with a bum wrap or you are indeed a disturbed individual.

  133. Orri says:

    There was something slightly odd about the grouping of some of the audience. Looking from the back almost exactly half way up there was a wedge from the left hand edge that clapped in unison for the unioist party leaders. Coincidentally that’s the most likely place the bloke wth the boom mike would be parked between questions from the audience.

  134. Dal Riata says:

    @Capella, MajorBloodnok, Iain Brotherhood, Valerie

    Thanks for the welcome, good on yez!


    Ehhh… I’m not sure if that was an attempt at humour or not, so ehhhh…Aye. Right.

  135. Fred says:

    @ Dal Riata, Suas Leis a Gaelic! 🙂

  136. Dal Riata says:


    Tha thu ceart, mo caraid!

  137. Effijy says:

    Has anyone got a full length picture of Massie?

    Does he wear Jack Boots that are heading in the direction of Poland.

    Totally illogical clap trap and the clown earns a living with this

    Willy Ignited- Yes Wee Willie Winkie’s Candle!

  138. NeoconNat says:

    Robert Graham, I’m not a salesman and am happy to let you come to your own conclusions. Is it cynical to think most people are smart enough to do that?

    Several people despise me on here because, well… who cares?

    Forum software seems to come preinstalled with small minded, defensive, cliques. There’s probably a box you can uncheck or something but nobody remembers to do it.

  139. Richard MacKinnon says:

    I know there are comments posted earlier that I would like to reply to, I cant find them. I saw them on my phone earlier but when I try to find them again, I cant. I know they are they but I am not prepared to scroll through yards of stuff that is not relevent.
    I think it might be deliberate. The editor of Wings maybe does not want discusion. I know this might sound a bit bizzare but what Rennie said ‘that pushing for a second referendum was undemocratic’ has got logic to it. It is a massive mistake to ignore argument you do not agree with. I think the doubters of Rennie’s proposal are about to find out why they are mistaken. If the EU referendum next month comes out in support of Remain, I predict the Rev Stu Cambell and his supporters will have to get their heads’ around Willie Rennie’s point.

  140. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Richard MacKinnon @20:10 said:

    I know this might sound a bit bizzare but what Rennie said ‘that pushing for a second referendum was undemocratic’ has got logic to it.

    It does sound extremely bizarre. It is inverse logic, actually. How could responding to a clearly-recognised popular will for a referendum, were it were to become apparent to all, possibly be anti-democratic? Actually holding a referendum wouldn’t even necessarily guarantee independence either, since it would be subject to a popular democratic vote. So Rennie is talking arrant nonsense. The Unionists are clearly deidly feart of an indyref2, and with very good reason.

    It is a massive mistake to ignore argument you do not agree with.

    True, if it is fair and makes sense. Rennie’s comment though was just another piece of FibDem baloney.

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. Massie’s apparent leanings towards authoritarian governance. A refutation of Presbyterianism and so Scotland’s cultural history? I’m not sophisticated enough to answer.

    I wonder what a trained semiotician would think of the lad’s Yooning? 🙂

  142. CameonB Brodie says:

    P.S. Especially a semiotician trained appropriately in cultural anthropology and Axiological signification.

  143. Tam Jardine says:

    Richard MacKinnon

    Hi Richard. If you need to address a point form earlier try the search function: CTRL and F. It is invaluable in navigating these long threads.

    You said @ 11:08 am:

    “before you take part in a vote you must accept the outcome of that vote whether you win or lose”.

    You also claim at 12.03pm: “A founding principle of democracy is that if you participate you accept the result.

    I would be interested to know the basis of this claim. If there was a referendum next month on enforced euthanasia for the over 70s I would campaign and vote against it. Why would I accept the result?

    I might continue to campaign against this policy. I might propose another referendum. I might stand for parliament against the policy. I might simply lobby my representatives to oppose the decision or to hold another referendum.

    In short I would not be able to hold another referendum myself but I might pursue other democratic means to oppose it and this might include pressing for a second referendum.

    And what would happen if I felt (and was not alone in feeling) that the referendum itself was compromised and had been conducted with excessive interference from outside agencies, from external governments and that the state broadcaster, wholly controlled from outwith this country and completely unaccountable to the people had bludgeoned the people into submission and the process went against the principles of the UN Charter of Self Determination?

    Well- in that case I would certainly not accept the result and I would be duty bound to attempt to right this democratic outrage. How could I accept the result? And what does accepting the result even mean? If accepting the result of a referendum means I accept the Foreign Office (who we all fund) lobbying every government around the world who will listen to oppose Scottish Independence then I don’t accept it. How can I accept something that is unacceptable?

    The most important principle for me is to do what is right- that guides me in my decision making. I never signed an Edinburgh agreement and in fact what meaning does it have when traduced by Cameron? Does it trump the UN Charter of Self Determination? Does it trump the Sovereignty of the Scottish people as established in that most important document in our Nation’s history, the Declaration of Arbroath?

    The unionists want to constantly create new rules that put roadblocks and obstacles and tripwires in the way of Scottish Independence. Cameron is looking after his nation’s best interests in doing so as it is certainly in England’s best interests to keep hold of their troublesome and resource rich northern neighbour.

    This is why we are talking about referendums rather than a simple majority of our parliamentarians support. This is why we are talking about once in a generation or once in a lifetime. This is why we are talking about locking down the SNP into some kind of crystal clear pledge when there is no legal or any other kind of obligation to do so.

    The unionists want democracy but on their own terms and to create rules that do not exist and have never existed. Willie Rennie and Ruth Davidson think government is like electricity or the tides- governed by a set of rules and they want to decide those rules themselves. The fundamentals, such as they exist are set out by the UN and the rules they set out are completely different to those put forward as gospel by Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie, the foreign owned press and the BBC.

    The bottom line is if the SNP can command a majority in the reconvened Scottish Parliament which represents the people of this land then they would have every right to withdraw from Westminster immediately and tear up the act of union on the very same day. They will not do so but that is the fundamental truth- everything else is just an invention of the forces who have been acting against the interests of Scotland for hundreds and hundreds of years.

    I hope you find that useful Richard and forgive me for going on and on but there is so much shite written and spoken on this subject that it needs cleared up.

  144. thomaspotter2014 says:


  145. heedtracker says:

    Richard MacKinnon says:

    The editor of Wings maybe does not want discusion. I know this might sound a bit bizzare but what Rennie said ‘that pushing for a second referendum was undemocratic’ has got logic to it. It is a massive mistake to ignore argument you do not agree with”

    It is anti democratic to tell anyone anywhere they cannot be allowed to campaign for anything, anything at all.

    You can campaign against anyone else campaigning for something you do not want.

    What may happen though, tory England passing laws that actually prevent referendum campaigns in their Scotland region. But even so, that would still be anti democratic.

  146. Chic McGregor says:

    Wouldn’t it be interesting if the self-loathing symptoms demonstrated by our twisteratti could be put to a reputable psychiatrist for diagnosis?

  147. Hamish100 says:

    Have to say not really interest by Massie or the no supporters. I want to vote for independence and win this time. All the greetin faces saying I cant vote again are undemocratic and should move elsewhere. Rennie supported financially the lying Carmichael says it all for me.

    Personally in my day a majority of MP’s would have been enough for UDI

  148. Robert Graham says:

    neoconat i am not really sure you understood my comment addressed to you .
    The first part was a compliment on your observed technical inconsistencies of the leaders debate .
    The second point was an observation of the not so kind replies that appear in reply to your many posts i was merely asking if you thought you were being picked on unduly .
    I dont remember mentioning salesman maybe you are replying to some other post .

  149. NeoconNat says:

    Yes, Robert, I understood the question perfectly and answered accordingly.

    I’m not looking to convince you one way or another on whether I deserve hostile replies or not; you can make your own mind up. That’s what I mean by not being a salesman — I’m not here to sell you one argument or another, blame anyone, or canvass for support.

    People on here are generally smart enough to follow an argument and make their own conclusions.

    SNP x 2 is all that matters and it matters a lot.

    Without an SNP majority there’s nothing but darkness for us all.

  150. Iain More says:

    Well when a Tory/Brit Nat tells me that I should respect the result of the referendum, well I throw that English Nationalist Maggie T back in their faces. It was her after all that said that a majority of SNP MPs would be good enough for Scotland to take a hike.

    I think the will of the Scots was settled last May as far as I am concerned with 56 out of 59 MPs returned! Why are we still in the Union?

    It is a joy to see the faces of those Scot haters turn purple with rage and steam coming out of their ears. There is no come back to that from the Thatcher Cultists that stalk Scotland yet.

  151. NeoconNat says:

    Tam Jardine, great post — not too long, if anything too short.

    And did everybody notice how it didn’t hinge on any left or right sentiment, that it was in that sense politically neutral, or apolitical?

    That’s the way forward for the independence movement — independence is far too important to be considered a political issue.

  152. Big Jock says:

    Iain I agree. A country that thought it had made the right decision. Would not then elect a landslide indi supporting party.

    The WM victory was sending a message that some no voters regretted being conned. As far as I am concerned if the referendum was held tomorrow we would win it.

  153. neil bruce says:

    Richard MacKinnon

    I really fail to understand people saying “accept the result”. We have accepted
    the result, Scotland is not independent, did no one notice?

    As for Ruth Davidson, Kezia Dugdale and Willie Rennie, well lets test their
    democratic credentials.

    Ruth Davidson, stood for election, got 5.0%, slithered in to Holyrood on the list.

    Kezia Dugdale, never stood for election, sneaked in to Holyrood on the list.

    Willie Rennie, was a westminster mp, got booted out on his arse in 2010,
    squirmed in to Holyrood, on the list.

    I will take no lessons on Democracy from these three unelected clowns.

    You mention a remain vote for the EU referendum and “remain” winning, I suspect
    you may have to get your head around this point. If remain do win, the leave campaigners will not stop campaigning to leave, indeed if the result is close they may push even harder.

    If however “leave” wins do you think that everyone will say “well thats it, we are never
    going back, shut down all discussion?” It is more likely that some will still argue for

    I will never ask them, leave or remain, to shut up because I believe that it is their right to argue for
    what they believe in. Maybe I’m a Democrat or something.

    When Scotland votes to be independent some people will still cling to the Unionist lifestyle,
    see Neil Oliver for example. Scotland voted to remain in the Union, some people remain
    committed to indepedence and argue for it, well thats a surprise.

    Get used to it, it is not going away.

  154. Iain More says:

    Another classic example of Brit Nat Hypocrisy is over Fox Hunting. Hunting them with hounds might now be banned but the Fox Hunting lobby hasn’t gone away and they are forever looking for ways and excuses to reintroduce it.

  155. mike cassidy says:

    This article on possible eu referendum outcomes.

    The part below is the first I’ve come across mention of an exit side effect being more powers for Holyrood.

    Anybody know anymore on this?

    If Scotland were obliged to leave the EU along with England, however, matters would still change. Powers would revert to the UK as a consequence of EU withdrawal, but many of these to Scotland rather than Westminster as they are not reserved. This includes large swathes of powers in relation to agriculture, fisheries, environment, justice and home affairs, higher education and social policy. Scotland could then choose whether to align its policies in these fields more with London or with Brussels, so retaining a stronger connection with Europe if not a role in European policymaking.

  156. NeoconNat says:

    Neil Bruce, “When Scotland votes to be independent some people will still cling to the Unionist lifestyle”.

    Yes, and they are welcome to start a political party and fight for returning to servitude and second class citizenship within the British Union. Can you imagine how absurd It would look for them to campaign to give away our sovereignty like that once we are independent?

    Yet that is the relationship they are arguing for now.

  157. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    mike cassidy,

    Since the whole agenda of the Tory Brexiteers is to suck all power back to their allmighty Westminster, I wouldn’t put too much stock on anything worthwhile coming to Scotland in the event of an exit.

    On the contrary, if the Brexiteers do get in control of a UK unmoderated by the EU, just who do you think they will turn their greedy attentions to next…?

  158. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.P.S. I’m not trying to aggravate Scotland’s sectarian tensions, btw, more a religious war with England. 😉

    As far as I am aware Scotland’s (p)resbyterian history defines our communitarian values, democratic principles and tolerance towards others (which is not the same as respect).

    I’m way out of my depth here and do not wish to cause any offense. I’m simply trying to draw attention to Scotland’s culture of democrat society. The same might not be such an appropriate description of elsewhere. Ken. 😉

  159. Breeks says:

    @Robert MacKinnon.

    Robert you make a valid point that a democratic result needs to be respected, however that assumes the instruments and processes which enable the population to reach a decision are reasonably fair and equitable.

    If our referendum had been properly examined in the months leading up to the vote, I’d have been satisfied that the arguments had been properly and robustly examined, and the population thus empowered to make an informed decision. I am a reasonable person, and while I might not agree with the result, I would be resigned to accept its democratic credentials.

    That simply did not happen.

    Think back. For a sampler, take the issue of Scotland’s currency, and the interminable wrangling about whether Scotland could use or lose the pound. It was revisited over, and over, and over again, filling countless hours of debate and forcing its way onto the agenda. In reality, the issue was a complete red herring. Our referendum was about sovereign independence. With independence, we would have the power to choose our currency, keep it, change it, and change it back to a different currency if world events required it. It wasn’t so very long ago the pound itself was in the ERM as a precursor to joining the Euro. Westminster had decided to join, entered the ERM, then promptly did an about turn. The issues which defined the impact of independent sovereignty on our currency were never permitted to break the surface.

    Our referendum campaign was so choked with insubstantial scare stories, distorted truths, and manipulated agendas that at no stage were actual issues pertinent to Sovereign Independence were never properly discussed. The arguments for or against were never properly tested. Every debate was hijacked to discuss these woolly irrelevances, every debate ceased to be an opportunity to learn anything because the agenda was always seized by outraged Unionists demanding answers to questions which could not be answered. Add to this the fully complicit media which has more Britnat credentials than Better Together itself.

    A referendum is a process. A public consultation over an issue so important that our elected politicians had back the power of choice to the people themselves. That wasn’t a referendum in 2014. Every actual argument of substance and relevance was swept aside to make room for more Unionist propaganda and skewed peurile perspectives wilfully distorting the truth about we were voting for.

    As a consequence, the vote in 2014 resolved absolutely nothing. Not a thing. Not one thing save except that we will be fools to hold a similar referendum while the malevolent influence of the U.K. News and media retain such a monopoly over what gets broadcast into our homes.

    That is why there is an appetite for an “undemocratic” second referendum so soon after the first. We were cheated out of the due and appropriate debate and discussion and steam rollered along into voting No at a pace and direction set by our crooked media in unholy cahoots with Westminster. Nothing was resolved, no aspiration discussed, no grievance so much as respected. It was all a spectacular waste of time because it was rigged from the outset.

    Spike the guns of the rancid propagandists at the BBC, and I would stop the traffic to hold a new referendum tomorrow. (And any tomorrow, not just election tomorrow).

  160. NeoconNat says:

    “As far as I am aware Scotland’s (p)resbyterian history defines our communitarian values, democratic principles and tolerance towards others (which is not the same as respect).”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, those guys with bowler hats and the flutes, they are celebrating Presbyterianism too right?

    I have a lot to learn about Scottish culture.

  161. Greannach says:

    The Times newspaper. Would that be the one that failed to mention the Hillsborough findings in its first edition last week? Obviously a journal with its finger on the pulse.

  162. mike cassidy says:

    Robert J Sutherland 12.54

    I think the implication is that a UK exit would see some currently devolved powers broadened and deepened.

    As I say, I haven’t seen this mentioned before, and was curious if anybody else had.

    As for the possibility of a Brexiteer controlled Westminster being inclined to rein in devolved powers – especially if they saw the above consequence of their own success –

    well, that would make for a lovely constitutional crisis would it not!

  163. Robert Graham says:

    Thanks for the post Breeks i doubt if anyone here would disagree with a word you wrote ,Excellent .

  164. Dunks says:

    I will say it again people.

    Tomorrow is going to see the biggest mobilisation ever seen in Scotland’s history transporting older yoon voters to the polling stations. These are the over 65 year olds, the same ones which cost us the referendum in 2014 and there are thousands of free lifts pre-arranged. This is fact, not fantasy and it is all being kept under wraps.

    Apathy will kill our movement stone dead. So, if you know of any SNP voter who for whatever reason cannot be bothered to vote, offer them a lift, especially older voters. Pick up your phone now, go through your contacts, and get phoning.

    Every vote counts.

    SNP x 2

  165. Richard MacKinnon says:

    You can complain about the referee all you want. The result stands.

  166. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Mike Cassidy,
    You ask ‘does anyone know more about this?’ I know this; we are being told to vote to Remain in EU referendum by the SNP although a vote to Leave would result in a lot more powers coming to Scottish parliament. Why? because a lot of the powers that now reside with European parliamant will be devolved to Holyrood.
    Its a truth the SNP dont want to hear. Scottish independence in the UK may give us more autonomy, more responsibilities, than independence in Europe.

  167. Richard MacKinnon says:

    You say “The bottom line is if the SNP can command a majority in the reconvened Scottish Parliament which represents the people of this land then they would have every right to withdraw from Westminster immediately and tear up the act of union on the very same day.” So why are the 56 SNP MPs sitting in Westminster?

  168. Breeks says:

    Apologies Richard, I called you Robert.

    The result stands, but stands as a discredit result, compromised by the dishonourable collusion between the media and the Unionists.

    Why would I waste my time complaining to the referee when he goes to bed in red, white, and blue pyjamas? As a matter of fact, I could, should, and did register my disapproval of the Edinburgh Agreement which deferred to the Electoral Commission as arbiter of the electoral process. I certainly hope the SNP will know better next time and insist on appropriately neutral and external monitoring of the whole electoral process. Fool me once? Shame on you. Fool me twice? …

  169. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    3 May, 2016 at 8:41 pm
    There is no reason why SNP cannot hold a second referendum. All they have to do is put it in a manifesto, win a majority and hold it.
    But why should unionists get involved. Why would Westminster give consent. They won the first one. Where would the authortiy be if Yes won a secend referendum by a landslide but unionists didnt vote.
    Scottish nationalists need to get their heads around the problems that come with the issues of a second referendum.

  170. Andrew McLean says:

    Richard MacKinnon says:
    Firstly referendum are not legally binding, so imagine Westminster having lost the EU referendum quite legally saying they will completely ignore the result, and what then? its legal?

    Anyway we are supposed to be the most devolved country in the world, but we can’t hold a referendum without the say so of our betters? Not very powerful then?

    The thing is Westminster can’t say no, they cant physically stop the Scottish government from holding a referendum, government in the UK is based on consent, take consent away, and the mother of all parliaments becomes a dictatorship.

    Then its not Westminster verses the Scottish parliament and people, but Westminster against the United Nations Charter, against international law, Westminster UK as a failed state, a member of the axes of evil.

  171. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Andrew McLean,
    Ask your self, if you are correct, why is it that the SNP do not have a commitment to a secend referendum in their manifesto.

  172. CameronB Brodie says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, those guys with bowler hats and the flutes, they are celebrating Presbyterianism too right?

    This from an individual(?) who attempted to use the liberal values of secular pluralism, to justify sectarian totalitarianism and Theocracy.

    I have a lot to learn about Scottish culture.

    Can’t argue with this though. 😉

  173. NeoconNat says:

    Cameron, we’ll have to stop meeting like this..

    Seriously, in all sincerity and earnestness, can you answer my question:

    Q) are the guys with the flutes and bowler hats celebrating Presbyterianism?

    lol @ sectarian totalitarianism

    Not very good at debate, are you? Be glad I am behaving myself… When the polls close I’ll be back to my old self though.

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    As you appear to confuse (p)resbyterianism with sectarian loyalism, I see no need to further expose you appealing ignorance of Scottish matters.

  175. CameronB Brodie says:


    Note to self: get new glasses!

  176. thomaspotter2014 says:

    If Scotland decided to have another referendum and the Unionists were told not to vote by Westminster/Establishment/BBC(same thing really) then all those non-votes should count as Yes.

    They counted the dead as No’s in 1979.

    Fairs fair huh?

  177. Grouse Beater says:

    People who argue a referendum result should be people’s final say never dare explain what it is they’re fearful of if a second is called at a later date.

    By the same token, independence won but a ‘lifetime’ on (irony) there’s a groundswell to unite with (say) Norway or Iceland, then those who won the last referendum need to argue their case again.

    It works both ways.

  178. Tam Jardine says:

    Richard MacKinnon 11.53am

    Hi Richard. “So why are the 56 SNP MPs sitting in Westminster?”

    Something told me that if you replied to my long post THAT would be the one thing you would be able to question.

    The whole thing is tied together though Richard. Andrew makes a good point above- referendums are non binding so what are we even getting all worked up about anyway? The point is that you started off talking about founding principles of democracy and so I was addressing principles which if they exist at all are not able to be updated based on what politicians think is fair or through considerations of voter fatigue or whether it is reasonable to do this or that.

    The principle of democracy as I read it is that rather than being asked about every decision large and small we elect individual politicians to represent our interests and make those decisions.

    And if our elected politicians can carry a vote through parliament there we have it. That is the expression of the sovereign will of the people. Numbers mean nothing- seats mean everything.

    But to answer your very good question we have to depart from the principles of democracy which I attempted to pare down up the thread. What you are asking about relates to expediency.

    The SNP (and independence supporters in general i suppose) do not simply want independence at any cost. The manner of gaining independence matters. To declare independence in the way I argued was a simple matter of democracy, and simply withdraw MPs form Westminster on, say, the 24th of June after a Leave vote in the EU Referendum would mean us leaving on bad terms.

    I am under no illusion as to how important it is to retain friendly relations with the rest of the UK and anyone who has relatives in England or has spent time there or does business there (and many who have none of these links) would be appalled at breaking the union in a reckless, belligerent way.

    When 2 people separate they can behave like adults and come to amicable, even if slightly frosty understandings. A chaotic breaking of the union with no dialogue between Scotland and rUK is inconceivable. The people would destroy a Westminster government or a Scottish government that behaved in this way and the markets would punish it.

    We would also want the Scotland to be internationally recognised as a sovereign state. We would also want to carry the population and make sure that whatever disputes occurred, people would understand that their will had been expressed in a free and fair way and that the new state had legitimacy.

    So although simply saying “we vote to break the act of union” is perfectly in keeping with democracy there are any number of practical, pragmatic reasons why a strong specific mandate is preferable.

    Thatcher acknowledged that all it would take for Scotland to be independent was a majority of MPs. That was the theory then. Of course then it was not a remote possibility and now we actually have a majority of SNP MPs in Westminster and MSPs in Holyrood we have found ourselves in the position that not only is that not enough due to the precedent of the referendum but the unionists want to stop another referendum ever being held again.

    As Breeks says the indyref resolved nothing- it simply held up the UK state to the light and it was not a pretty sight. It has somewhat cemented our position in practical terms that we cannot ‘leave’ without one even though it is unnecessary and Scotland is a Kingdom rather than a region trying to break away from a state.

    My turn for a question. Do you agree or disagree that the referendum of 2014 complied with the principles set out in the UN Charter of Self Determination?

  179. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Ive never read it. But it doesnt matter. Its always the result that counts. Leave it. Move on.

  180. Tam Jardine says:

    Richard MacKinnon

    Move on? You’re the one who brought it up!

  181. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Tam, Im sorry. I’ll never mention it again.

  182. Tam Jardine says:

    Richard Mackinnon

    “The editor of Wings maybe does not want discusion. I know this might sound a bit bizzare but what Rennie said ‘that pushing for a second referendum was undemocratic’ has got logic to it.” 3rd May 8.10pm

    “Ive never read it (the UN Charter of Self Determination). But it doesnt matter. Its always the result that counts. Leave it.
    Move on.”
    4th May 11.51pm

    You want a discussion about wanting a second referendum is undemocratic, now you want to shut down all discussion and the UN Charter, where the principles of self-determination are laid out doesn’t matter.

    You’re all over the place

    Both votes SNP, EU IN, then INDYREF 2 YES

  183. Orri says:

    If the No side could be sure of a solid boycott they could pad it out with fake registrations. No NO voters and less than, to pick a number at random, 40% of the electorate voting YES would be seen as an excuse to ignore the result.

  184. Davosa says:

    Firstly Massie Jnr is a thick fud who knows absolutely fuck all about Scotland and Scottish politics. Who in Scotland reads The Times anyway ?

    Anyone else on here getting irked out their heads by that pair of arsholes Davidson and Rennie. Fuckin imperialist, colonialism,t morally corrupt , bastards imho. Would rather have Dugbrain and thats saying something !

  185. Breeks says:

    I don’t want to put words in Richard MacKinnon’s mouth, but I interpret the meaning to be the Unionists are champions for democratic principles when the result suits them, but don’t want to confront all the thoroughly anti-democratic jiggery pokery which went into contriving that result. The deal was done, so shut up and get back to work.

    All Richard claims is there is some logic to it, and sadly, I agree, although I expect it’s a completely dissimilar logic we have in mind. His logic confirms the result, my logic leaves it thoroughly discredited.

    I will however concede defeat to Richard on a technicality; and that technicality is that the Pro-independence lobby should never have relied on the instruments of the U.K. State to supply and manage the machinery required to conduct a referendum dedicated to the deconstruction of that U.K. State. Did we really expect the BBC to play fair? Did we really expect the Unionist lobby to compromise its own monopoly on broadcast media? Did we really expect the UK’s Electoral Commission to break ranks from the UK to further the interests of a lobby to end the UK?

    Yes, of course the Unionists played dirty, and launched a crude campaign of disinformation and misrepresentation of the truth. Yes, it was crude, but beneath that crass exterior was a sophisticated and vice like command of the entire political agenda. The YES campaign seemed lamentably niaive about what it was up against. Sadly, I believe the pro-Indy lobby still has a task ahead of itself to correct this niaivity, and only then can work truly begin on the next vital task of somehow confounding that Unionist monopoly on broadcast media.

    I share common ground with Richard. There is no logic to a second referendum now; but not because the 2014 result has de-facto democratic integrity, if threadbare at that, but if we called for a new referendum tomorrow, next week, or next month, we have no physical alternative but to sit back and watch the UK’s media machine present our case for breaking up the UK, and have that process policed by instruments of the UK state. That I’m afraid to say was extremely niaive of ourselves first time around. Please God, can we not make the same mistake again?

    Not quite finished, our niaivity persists, because the Scottish Government manifesto seeks to negotiate some devolved control over BBC Scottish media. No! No! No! Error! Abort! Abort! Take evasive action immediately! What is wrong with the SNP, so knowledgeable and articulate about the merits of independence that they would for a second time so readily delegate presentation of Scotland’s case for sovereign independence to the presentation wing of the U.K. Ministry for Propaganda? Must we really waste another year, or two, or maybe even longer watching that forlorn idea fail dismally before we wise up and try a better alternative? Can’t we at least learn something from 2014?

    I can sleep at night that Indyref 2 isn’t in the manifesto. Pains me to say it, but it’s true. I am more concerned that the fight for unfettered Scottish Broadcasting is already still born, yet here we go, soldiering on regardless. Oh michtie me. Here we go again, doing things the hard way.

  186. Breeks says:

    Ha ha ha. Thought of a quip a moment late….

    If you cannot afford your own broadcaster, the state will appoint one for you.

  187. call me dave says:

    @Training Day

    Yeah that’s the style… I see it in my minds eye… Very good! 🙂

    Geez! You go out for a walk to the park, leaf spotting wie the grandchildren, (long story school project) and there is an explosion of threads. 🙂

    My eldest G/child who is sporting shiny SNP nails from a couple of weeks ago gave me some real Berwick shortbread! … there was a wee twinkle in her eye too as she says

    “It’s for eating when your listening to radio shortbread” Dave. I’m not her real grandfather bye the way but I have these duties for her to see the light. 🙂

    I’ll away and catch up now all the news.

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