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Wings Over Scotland

The worst country in the world

Posted on June 30, 2018 by

In our latest Panelbase poll, we asked the same independence question we asked in the last one, and got much the same answer. (Technically the indy vote went up by about a sixth of one percent, but that’s statistically meaningless.)

That’s a bit disappointing after the events of recent weeks, but also not very surprising – after all, the way the question is framed pretty much guarantees at least 38% of the population will choose the second option straight off the bat.

Much more interesting is the question we asked next.

Because we wondered whether Scotland was the ONLY nation that Scottish people thought was incapable of handling its own affairs, so we ran a few other possibilities past our sample. We chose a wide range, spanning all the inhabited continents and a variety of economic and political conditions to ensure we’d covered all bases.

But the results were remarkably uniform.

Because as it turns out, there are NO countries anywhere else on the planet that even a double-digit percentage of Scots think would fare better if they were run by their larger neighbour.

(Hilariously, the biggest number – still only 9% – opted for Ireland being run by the UK, presumably because the UK is in such absolutely fantastic shape at the moment, and definitely not making a spectacular pig’s breakfast of pretty much everything but particularly its relationship with Ireland.)

Remarkably, there was almost no difference of opinion on the subject between Yes and No voters. In nearly every case their views were more or less identical, with the only disparities being that three times as many No voters (though still only 6%) thought Pakistan should be run by India, and four times as many Yes voters (but still only 4%) thought that Canada would be better off ruled by the USA.

80% of Yes voters and 78% of No voters said “None of the above”. Which means that four-fifths of people who think Scotland should have its governments chosen by the people of England think Scotland is unique on the face of the Earth as a nation that can’t and/or shouldn’t run itself.

That’s despite Scotland being one of the most resource-blessed nations anywhere on the globe, having enjoyed centuries of peace and stability, having no real enemies and having a devolved government popular and competent enough to still be 14 points ahead in the polls after 11 years in power.

Back in 2014, when Johann Lamont said in a TV interview that “We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions”, this site – unlike a lot of Yes types – didn’t make a big deal out of it, because it was obviously just clumsily-phrased, like most things the hapless Labour leader said. She didn’t mean that Scots were genetically INFERIOR in that regard, she was just ineptly trying to say that they weren’t specially genetically SUPERIOR.

But it’s increasingly clear that around half of the people of Scotland really DO believe that they and their countryfolk are idiots who shouldn’t be allowed to be in charge of themselves, and that no other nation in the world is as useless as us.

It’s quite the testament to 300 years of British rule, one way and another.

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  1. 30 06 18 12:56

    The worst country in the world | speymouth

  2. 23 07 18 12:20

    Panelbase poll suggests the prize of staying within the EU will boost Yes support – Aye We Can

185 to “The worst country in the world”

  1. Greg says:

    I wonder what the result would be if Q12 also had the option ‘I would vote for Scotland outside the EU AND the UK’

  2. Monica Worley says:

    This question about nations being run by other bigger neighbors is great. Sad that some Scots can’t see their answers on this question in relation to the independence question. I’m assuming it’s because they don’t see Scotland as a nation, but instead see it as ‘a part of the UK’. Scottish education in the past has a lot to answer for.

  3. Cod says:

    “…and competent enough to still be 14 points ahead in the polls after 11 years in power, under a system specifically designed to prevent such dominance by, ostensibly, any party, but more honestly, the SNP.

    More accurate sentence.

  4. David McCann says:

    Sadly the Scottish cringe is still alive and well!

  5. Holly Teine says:

    We are running out of time. We desperately need a media presence to work against State propaganda, but it seems a near impossible task. Demographically Scotland will be independent one day, just so frustrating that we have no access to influential media now that could provide some facts instead of the lies we constantly expend energy refuting.

  6. Cassandra Lee says:

    But you’re not comparing like with like. You asked if countries which are already independent should surrender that independence and be ruled by someone else. That’s not the position Scotland is in, sadly. Perhaps a more realistic comparison would be between say, Catalonia and Spain, or Kurdistan and Turkey etc?

  7. mogabee says:

    A nation that is taught, constantly, by press and media in almost all ways, that ‘you are not good enough’.

    Fearties. Selfish. Uninformed.

    Cannae wait to get right in amongst them and put a vision of a proper Nation, fighting to better its people. With the support of its people.

    Aye, we CAN dae this…

  8. Snode1965 says:

    Stockholm Syndrome on a National scale…quite a feat from the British Establishment.

  9. @Holly Teine

    “We are running out of time. We desperately need a media presence to work against State propaganda”,

    Johnston Press shares have nosedived from 400p to 3.5p,basically worthless,

    someone could probably pick up the Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday for hee haw just so they can get them of their books,

    you would need some capital to keep it running (wages infrastructure,pensions)but long term with the right editor and a pro Independence editorial you would see sales increase 10 fold,

    just a thought to anyone (or group) out there with good Scottish business sense and a decent sized cheque book,

    `The Scotsman` name is worth the risk.

  10. Liz says:

    300 years of propaganda has taken its toll. There are far too many Proud Scots but.

  11. Skip_NC says:

    What sort of Yes voter thinks that Canada would be better run by the USA? Presumably one who has since moved to No. I can think of no other explanation. After all, the current governments in the UK and the USA (federal level and more than a few states) are pretty much indistinguishable. They are filled with political pygmies, quite happy to shovel welfare in the general direction of those who paid for them to be elected. The major opposition party in each country is, basically, a fraud, promising the earth to any constituency which feels oppressed, only to dump on them from a great height if and when they get elected.

    The UK is the fifty-first state in all but name. After independence, the aptly-named rump of the U.K. may as well make it official.

  12. Andy Anderson says:


  13. Ian Foulds says:

    Cassandra Lee,

    Are your examples internationally recognised Countries?


  14. Andy-B says:

    Those questions in my opinion confirm to me that as part of the union for over 300 years it has led a percentage of Scots to actually believe, that Scots are nationally (Scotland) not as capable of running our affairs as good as our larger English neighbour. Or possibly even the rest of the world for that matter.

    Now I don’t believe its anything at all to do with genetics, I do believe however it has everything to do with conditioning over a long period of time.

    Such as in the suppression of a countries own history and achievements, that have been superceded in educational establishments by our larger neighbour, and backed up by the media as a whole.

    It will be a difficult task to undo over 300 years of belief by the majority, that we’re not good enough to run our own affairs, and that it’s best to leave our larger neighbour to do it for us.

    But we can and will reach our goal.

  15. Holly Teine says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    That is exactly the kind of thing we need, a publication like the Scotsman. And it doesn’t have to be pro Indy in any way, all it needs to do is not ignore political scandals in which Unionist parties are involved, and to promote in a positive way the good things that are happening in Scotland.

  16. Thepnr says:

    Very interesting, an answer that both Yes and No voters can agree equally that being governed by a bigger neighbour is not the best option for all these other Independent countries.

    You should have included Scotland being run by much bigger neighbour England right at the end of that question, that would have threw them and a few might even have taken a fit.

    Missed a trick there I think 🙂

  17. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Stokholm syndrome and many other maladies affect the Scottish people.

    Its a shame more Scots dont read a bit more or allow their curiosity to take them to a pro independence event.

    Independence would arrive quicker if folk only read a little more.

  18. Marc Rich says:

    How in the actual name of f*** can unionists support such blindingly obvious cognitive dissonance as to say Scotland is GLOBALLY UNIQUE in needingto be run by a foreign power?!

    HOW!!!! 9% for Ireland. A similar Celtic nation with less resources. That number should have been at least 30%!!!


  19. Clootie says:

    ….it looks more and more like I will be moving to Ireland to live.
    A nation of Scots or a nation of doormats?

  20. jfngw says:

    It would have been interesting if Q13a had also included – Scotland would be better run by England. Just to see how this was answered compared to Q12.

  21. Alan says:

    Crazy that 9% of Yes voters think that Ireland would be better off run by the UK.

    Wut?! I’d love to know their reasons. The rest is statistically negligible, but Canada is also surprising. However, I can think of one explanation for that – Canada has ten states which could theoretically add 20 very left-wing(compared to USA) senators to the US senate, as well as considerable electoral weight.

    Given how finely split the bipartisan divide is, plus the checks and balances in the US system, a Canadian voting bloc admitted into USA on equal terms could become a very powerful moderating influence.

    I’m not one of them, but I can see how this maybe results in a better world for everyone – including the Canadians.

  22. Undeadshuan says:

    Whilst the figures for yes and no are close and we would expect yes to be a majority, look on the bright side.

    49% is the starting point for the next referendum, we only need a 1.000001 percent increase in the yes vote.

    Its up to us all to help achieve this when the next referendum is announced.

    Given that in 2014 refetendum we were at 23% in 2013 and in 2012 we were at 32%, think what we can achieve.

    Adding 10% to 59% should be achievable, if we all get involved this time.

  23. Ottomanboi says:

    This is the impact of the colonial hammer, in effect the hammer of the Scots is psychological subservience promoted by the anglo-fixated cult of Unionism. Unionism is ‘evil’. Anything that undermines, demeans, trivialises, abuses, manipulates a nation in the manner of this pernicious cult can be nothing else. Crush the foul thing!
    On the bright side close to 50% of our people are unbowed. A very good base for an independence ‘spring’.

  24. Athanasius says:

    This really doesn’t bode well at all. Some time ago, Tom Devine (I think) compared the current Scottish generation to the Irish in the 1890s. What people don’t get nowadays is that one of the prime reasons the Irish of the following generation fought their War of Independence was because of the utter disgust their parents engendered in them. If the kind of thinking revealed in this poll doesn’t dissipate soon, Scotland could be looking at a very scary future.

  25. Proud Cybernat says:

    I think in the recent Social Attitude Survey something in the order of 80% of people in Scotland want Holyrood have more say over the governance of Scotland than Westminster.

    Which is kinda in line with the 80% “none of the above” figure in your question.

    It seems then that most Scots WANT to run their own affairs – just don’t call it ‘independence’.

    And yet only 49% (thus far) support indy in EU. What are the other 31% (of that 80% from the SAS) thinking? Perhaps they are still devolutionists who have yet to realise that ‘Devo is Deid’. Then they’ll have to make a choice between two different futures – there is no status quo on offer.

    1) Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands.


    2) Scotland’s future in others’ hands.

    When IndyRef2 starting gun is fired and hundreds of thousands of us are campaigning in the towns and cities all over Scotland, that clarity will be brought home and that 49% should easily rise to 58%+.

  26. Mike says:

    Try and get somebody who believes Ireland is better off Independent but not Scotland to explain it and you will experience a level of reality denying you wouldn’t believe possible because the reason is emotional rather than practical its a self imposed perception of a reality rather than a reality in itself.
    Arguing or debating with Yoons is a futility when you cant even reach them with evidential realities.
    I see and welcome the small trickle of ex no voters to Yes since 2014 but I continue to wonder how and why it took them so long to see what has always been glaring realities and why so many more still refuse to acknowledge them even though they can no longer pretend they cant see them.

  27. John Pearson says:

    Unionists have been taught from an early age that Britain is the best thing in the world and to be disloyal to the establishment at Westminster is immoral. Without a fair and unbiased press these people will continue to believe this with passion. They believe the shit which is peddled in the media because they want to. The media bias is the unions number one tool, without that I am sure many people will come to realize that the Union is unfair and disadvantages Scotland in many ways. They probably see this to an extent, but their faith in the British system of government is so strong that they are prepared to make sacrifices to keep the benefits they are convinced they receive from it. Many people, the majority probably, have only a superficial understanding of what is going on politically, they read the first paragraph of a story if they read it at all. mostly they get their information from headlines. Unfortunately for the nationalist movement the union has a lot to lose by losing control of Scotland, so will be prepared to spend a very large amount of money to keep it. Unless a way can be found to counter this there wont even be another referendum. And, if we don’t get one soon, it will be too late. Once all EU residents of Scotland are not allowed to vote (will likely be a condition should another vote be ‘granted’)the task of getting more than 50% will be even harder or impossible. The big question now is whether people will change their mind as they get older and become more unionist, or keep their position.

  28. Geordie says:

    I like this talk of acquiring The Hootsmon. How about a crowd-funded ‘community’ buy-out?

  29. MJT says:

    In poker we have a saying – ‘Don’t tap the glass’ – It’s used when a good player gives a bad player information as to why their play was bad. Tapping the glass is what you do to disturb a fish in a fish tank. Bad poker players are known as fish. They’re either uninformed or misinformed, and to give them good information cuts into the good player’s win rate. Knowledge is power.

    Ignorance = exploitability. That’s where the money is. the weight of the Uk establishment is dedicated to making sure the glass is not sufficiently tapped. We have to tap the glass.

    As the great Chuck D says, don’t focus on the puppets, focus on the puppet masters. When we really work together, I think we have Indy in the bag. If we don’t…we’re the fish.

  30. Legerwood says:

    ThyssenKrupps to merge with Tata Steel. New company will be Europe’s second largest steel company. Yet another part of Tata’s UK operations heading to Europe either wholly or in part.

    Tata hopes there won’t be redundancies at Port Talbot

    Steel firms Thyssenkrupp and Tata to merge –

  31. Bob Mack says:

    In the main Scots have been subject to classical and operant conditioning for most of their lives. It starts at home, dependant on family political views,and carries on through school via history lessons ,peer group views, and then through work life.

    We have been born and educated to feel obliged to our supposed “partner” in the UK for everything that is good in Scotland. They plunder our resources because they tell us we should share, just like they did with us. We have to break this circle. England was and remains a parasite nation, and I speak in terms of government rather than people.

    You could have walked around India at the turn of the century and found exactly the same views as held by many Scots.

    Subservience through brutality or kindness is still subservience. Many on Wings have recognised the facts. Many outside of this forum have not. We must educate them. A slow process,but a worthwhile one. Look how long it took every other nation of the Empire to finally break free..

  32. Dr Jim says:

    Even if the English government issued a proclamation tomorrow that told Scotland we weren’t wanted the densely thickest of the Yoonion muggles would still refuse to accept it as their god given right to at least try to be apprentice English people and beg the English government to let them stay, they are that stupid

    The British Nationalists don’t even know the government they support couldn’t give a jot about them as people, they don’t even like them for God sake, it’s all about money and units of voters and power and the Scottish Britnats don’t see it

    Take a look behind the scenes at Ireland and see how the British behave, right now using Brexit the British are attempting to choke Irelands trade with the EU so they can manipulate the lives of people to their own ends, they don’t care about people, any people, if they thought they could get away with it the British army would be in Scotland right now doing what Spain is doing to Catalonia and their Scottish Britnat slaves would be cheering them on while they did it

    If you truly want Scottish Independence the smart thing politically anybody can do is join the SNP in vast unstoppable numbers so overwhelming it will give the SNP the mandate to go ahead and do it in an election that cannot be denied

    Remember joining the SNP isn’t a non removable Tattoo, you can rescind your membership any time you like by stopping your direct debit but but you can’t rescind the UK indelible Union flag Tattooed to your country by stopping your direct debit

    Join the SNP today and after Independence join whoever you like because you’ve at least a chance of getting who you vote for in an Independent Scotland, with the UK you’ve none zilch nada

    They’ve already Tattooed their flag all over our food, whit’s next, Yer Arse

  33. RogueCoder says:

    This makes for depressing reading. Either half of Scots simply don’t believe that Scotland is a country in its own right, or they are so wedded to the union that they simply don’t believe we could exist as an independent state.

    This is why Lesley Riddoch and Phantom Power’s “Nation” series is so important. It shows small successful countries doing things that presently Scotland isn’t even allowed to dream of. We need more content and serious analysis along those lines to remind people that Scotland is a strong and capable county in its own right, and doesn’t need the imperialistic parasite that is Westminster “government”.

  34. Capella says:

    Unionists don’t believe they are being ruled by England. They have succumbed to the “British” myth. Westminster is the British Parliament and our MPs are represented in the British Parliament.

    Every day they see evidence of this on TV with endless British war films, news and documentaries glorifying Britain’s military past. The fact that this is entirely elided with England just slips subliminally by.

    Half the population is asleep, swooned into a condition of belief by an all pervasive, big-brother media.

  35. HandandShrimp says:

    We are not far away from where we need to be. Yes the last few percnt will be harder work than the previous 20% added but once Scotland is an independent country that will be the new default and people will be equally unwilling to give it up once achieved. It is human nature to fear change.

  36. Jim McIntosh says:

    A good reason not to tie staying in the EU with the Indy question. Whether to stay as full EU members should be voted on afterwards. Although for the life of me I can’t understand how ceding 15% of your powers to Brussels can be worse than ceding 85% to WM.

  37. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Scot Finlayson @ 11:27,
    Holly Teine @ 11:38,

    I agree, having a genuinely neutral Scotsman would be a real boost both to indy in particular and to democracy in general.

    Though just like Gartcosh in its day, I could see the owners preferring that the paper went bust rather than offering any assistance to the indy movement.

    “Scorched earth” is another tool in the BritNat bag of tricks.

  38. Ottomanboi says:

    Studying British colonial history the same divisive themes recur, ‘you’ are not x y or z, choose any value at random, which equals ‘you’ will never be ready for independence.
    The Raj dined out on the myth of native unpreparedness and assumed incompetence for decades even building a new imperial capital which they had to vacate soon after its completion.
    The Empire collapsed not because it grew to expensive to run, colonies paid for their own subjection, but because those colonies got ‘above themselves’ and required military intervention as in Malaya and East Africa or policing as in Cyprus which bombed out London could ill afford. The Commonwealth was just the Empire remorphed. The Brits were and are still at the myth stoked centre of things. The Irish sensibly ditched the whole post-colonial con.

  39. Kevin says:

    Slightly O/T; WM Power Grab is like the final confrontation, where they’re saying; “Fine, have your second referendum, we know you’re girding your loins for this, but be under no illusion, if Scotland votes No again we’re dismantling HR and taking full control”. We’d better get our act together.

    Mgt Ferrier joining ‘Bridges for Indy’ today? Right, let’s get visual, let’s start campaigning, let’s get some high-profiles out amongst us

  40. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Greg, 11.17am

    The question is put in a way that posits a situation where independence AND leaving the EU is not an option (at least at the hypothetical time of the next referendum, with any consideration for leaving the EU further down the line not mentioned), so it wouldn’t fit. Of course, Stuart could have put the question differently in order to include the 3rd option you’d like to see; but I think that would show current support for EU membership among independence-supporting Scots being a good deal lower than two years ago. And that just won’t do.

  41. HandandShrimp says:

    So few people read the Scotsman it might just be a waste of money buying it. If columnists in the wider media and people like Murray Foote and JK Rowling peel away or refuse to support a Tory led No campaign then I think we will pull away and secure the Yes vote.

    It is the zeitgeist that we need to change.

    The DUP marching with guys in Orange sashes is exactly what the No campaign doesn’t need.

  42. Martin says:

    Unfortunately I’ve encountered this view too often when discussing independence. There are people out there who cannot see past the SNP being in charge ad infinitum and instead use their prejudice as the basis that any Scot cannot be put in charge of our own affairs.

  43. Haggishunter says:

    Looking at the last paragraph of this article, I think 50% of Scots have been groomed by British propaganda and see themselves as being British, or Scottish and British, without actually thinking what has and is happening to Scotland.
    They have a British identity which is more important to them than Scotland, and it doesn’t matter that Scotland is being stripped of assets.
    So they don’t think the Scots are too stupid to run their country, they themselves represent the 50% of a population that is more self serving, despising of other nationalities and more easily lead by a manipulative news agenda.
    Every country has them, the Trump voters, the Brexit voters the No voters

  44. Michael McCabe says:

    pity you did not ask do you think Scotland could run the UK better than the present mob.

  45. jfngw says:


    Great visual – Picture of Foster leading OO march, text – you voted No so a DUP politician that refuses to sit in her own parliament but controls the Tories at Westminster can strut the streets of Scotland.

  46. Les Wilson says:

    The Unionists of all creeds know what England gets from Scotland,they also know that should Scotland be Independent,rUK will suffer in many ways due to their reliance on all things Scottish.

    Our long list of assets, our oil and gas, our over all energy sources, our taxes, our soldiers who die for them and myriads of other things.
    So those who feel bound to England, seriously do not want the country that they either come from or have ties.
    to have to suffer just because Scotland the country, our country, wants to control itself,for the first time in 300 odd years.
    We want to be responsible for our own actions and our own real democracy in order to live a better life, and no longer be tied to a corrupt and evil Westminster, who has nothing to offer.

    We no longer want to be controlled by another country, we just want to be free to make our own way. The world will then see the real Scotland, a respected Scotland emerge.

  47. Les Wilson says:

    The Unionists of all creeds know what England gets from Scotland,they also know that should Scotland be Independent,rUK will suffer in many ways due to their reliance on all things Scottish.

    Our long list of assets, our oil and gas, our over all energy sources, our taxes, our soldiers who die for them and myriads of other things.
    So those who feel bound to England, seriously do not want the country that they either come from or have ties with
    to have to suffer. Just because Scotland the country, our country, wants to control itself,for the first time in 300 odd years.
    We want to be responsible for our own actions and our own real democracy in order to live a better life, and no longer be tied to a corrupt and evil Westminster, who has nothing to offer.

    We no longer want to be controlled by another country, we just want to be free to make our own way. The world will then see the real Scotland, a respected Scotland emerge.

  48. jfngw says:

    LATEST – Rumours that the BAE Australia contact is already bearing fruit for Govan. There is an indication that they will need to employ an extra person in the mail-room, which is a result of the increased workload expected sending the design details to Australia.

  49. Dan Huil says:

    Q12. Result depressing?! Not to me, at least. Near as damn it 50/50 and brexit still to come. All it needs is the Scottish government to promise a referendum on EU membership in the first parliament of an independent Scotland and we’re home and dry.

  50. CameronB Brodie says:

    Humans are sensitive to their position in the world and the social relations that subsequently flow from our institutional structures. As such, we are individually sensitive to cultural prejudice and discrimination, which are internalised differently by different individuals. Regardless of the way we personally deal with cultural chauvinism (racism), it is personally and culturally debilitating to it’s victims, as it denigrates their identity and robs them of their agency.

    Scottish culture and the Scottish identity, has historically been undermined by, and are currently under serious threat from, popular public discourse that frames reality in terms of British nationalist ideology and historiography.

    British nationalism opposes difference, so tough luck for Scots who aren’t English Tory voters, as contemporary British nationalism is essentially a vehicle for English cultural imperialism.

    N.B. Roughly 75% of Scots self-identify as Scots only.

    Culture Poisons Brain With Racism, Study Finds

    For years, social scientists have uncovered the unsettling truth that no matter how egalitarian a person purports to be, their unconscious mind holds some racist, sexist or ageist thoughts.

    But a new study finds that this may say less about the person and more about the culture that surrounds him or her.

    The new study finds that while people are quick to associate word pairs that bring to mind stereotypes (think “black – poor” versus “black – goofy”), this tendency is rooted not in the social meaning of the words, but in the likelihood of the words appearing together in literature and media. In other words, this implicit prejudice is driven more by culture than by any innate horribleness in the person, said study researcher Paul Verhaeghen, a Georgia Tech psychologist….

    Understanding Internalized Oppression: A
    Theoretical Conceptualization of Internalized

    Cultural Competence and Spirituality in Community Building
    Chapter 27. Cultural Competence in a Multicultural World
    Section 3. Healing from the Effects of Internalized Oppression

  51. mike cassidy says:

    Arlene Foster wants a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland!

  52. Marcia says:

    Things have changed from a few years ago when Independence attracted 30% support. We are almost getting near to the tipping point. I remember when less than 10% would vote yes.

  53. jfngw says:

    Scotland must be almost unique in that its largest parades and festivals do not celebrate Scottish culture but the culture of another country(s), be it hundreds of Orange walks or hundreds of Edinburgh Festival/Fringe events.

  54. Capella says:

    Armed Forces Day. BBC damp squib of a report today. When you recall that on the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn in 2014 AFD was staged in a field next to Bannockburn – on the same weekend as the Bannockburn commemorations, this poor show needs a bit of explaining. Not least because the date can be changed to the following weekend.

    Has anyone discovered yet who in Stiring Council made the decision to have Armed Forces Day 2014 in Stirling?

    Are all the celebrants in Cowdenbeath listening to Arlene Foster?

  55. DaveM says:

    I think it would have been interesting to include a specific question in relation to Scotland being run by England in order to make a proper comparison with the rest of the examples you picked out…

  56. Derick fae Yell says:

    We cannot be out of the single market for an extended period.

    The fastest way, by far – literally years – back into the single market is EFTA.

    Because the accession criteria (EFTA Convention Article 56) is basically “The Four agree”. No pish and joining the Euro, even theoretically. No deficit criterion to facilitate ERM membership. No Spanish Veto scare. No need to have all the regulatory agencies that Independent countries already have, that we don’t, and that are needed for EU accession. Iceland, Lichtenstein, Norway and Switzerland agree we can join (and there are advantages for them in approving us)

    EEA membership from EFTA then becomes straightforward because we are already compliant with the Acquis. 6-8 months.

    With our rights and economy protected, we can consider joining the EU at our leisure.

  57. Scottish Steve says:

    Must be a uniquely Scottish trait. Ireland endured 800 years of English and then British rule but they still threw off the yoke and are quite happy ruling themselves. I guess too many Scots are cringe merchants or truly believe they are equal in this union and are British through and through.

    They don’t see Scotland being ruled by another country. To them, Britain is their country and the English are merely their fellow British countrymen. I hear it all the time from unionists. “Scots are equal, we all have one vote each just like the English. You want our votes to matter more? You think we deserve special treatment just because an imaginary line on a map drew centuries ago says we’re a country?”

    Those who do see Britain as a union of countries but still want to retain it are quite happy being the untermensch. After all, the English look after us and pay for us, and we should never criticise them because that would make us nasty nationalists. Now eat your cereal.

    Sorry for the rant but some of my fellow Scots seriously piss me off.

  58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Reluctant Nationalist @ 13:21:

    I think that would show current support for EU membership among independence-supporting Scots being a good deal lower than two years ago.

    I don’t see any evidence to support that contention. In fact, it’s more likely to be the reverse, as people in general become more and more aware that the EURef, just like the Indyref before it, was fought (and stolen) with outright mendacity (“£350M for the NHS”, “all powers repatriated to Scotland”, etc., etc.), large quantities of smokescreening and now, as is being revealed, dodgily funded by tainted money via the likes of the DUP.

    Nah, the EUref was a fraud, and people are not all idiots.

    Personally, I would be perfectly happy to revisit the issue once an independent Scotland is up and running, and I am not in the least afraid of the likely result.

    Unlike Leavers like Jim Sillars, who purports to be a supporter of independence, yet has the bald effrontery to assert that Scotland’s voice in the EURef can be drowned out by England, as per, and wants Scotland to be royally shafted by John Bull just one more time so he can have his anti-democratic minority way.

    It’s sore-loser Leavers like Sillars who want this forced on us by Mother England before we can properly choose for ourselves. That tells you all you need to know about who thinks where the true majority lies.

  59. Dr Jim says:

    From today rationing of fizzy drinks will be imposed by Asda no doubt followed by other stores due to the shortage of Co2 gas

    A small thing some might think, a minor shortage but not a problem, but what it highlights is *This gas comes from Europe* Did I shout that loud enough for the folk at the back who walked off before birth when their brains were supposed to be handed out

    I’m not going to explain what else we need this gas for because it’s a long bloody list
    Is there anything else the Brexit numpties can think of that comes from Europe we don’t need, have, or want and how we’re going to replace those items and at what cost

    Today a fizzy drink….tomorrow? well could be a footballer for your favourite flavour of bigot team, NO I hear you say, maybe, but you can bet yer wee cotton socks they’ll cost you more and can you afford it, well NO you can’t

  60. Shinty says:

    I agree with others – we don’t want a pro indy newspaper, we just want a fair crack at the wheel.
    And for goodness sake a newspaper that will print the positive things happening all over Scotland every day.

  61. Hamish100 says:

    Glasgow’ s Buchanan Street today- tens of thousands of shoppers getting leaflets handed to them by Lib Dems saying only they can have a Peoples Vote– no not independence just on Brexit.
    Leaflet published in Manchester not Glasgow. Some things cant be produced here obviously.
    Brit Union is bad for Glasgow , bad for Scotland.

  62. Dorothy Devine says:

    A fair crack of the whip- surely??

  63. Hamish100 says:

    jfngw says:
    30 June, 2018 at 2:17 pm
    Scotland must be almost unique in that its largest parades and festivals do not celebrate Scottish culture but the culture of another country(s), be it hundreds of Orange walks or hundreds of Edinburgh Festival/Fringe events.

    Defeat of the Norse invader is remembered at the Viking Festival in Largs every year.

    Maybe we should all gather on the 1st September, Saltires proudly displayed to support the Scots?

  64. Holly Teine says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Where do you get your info for the 75% of people identifying as Scottish only. The 2011 census gave it as 62%, and a survey in 2015 had the same result. I’d like 75% but 62% is good, it means we have the capacity to get that full 62% voting for independence.

    Census 2011 Identity, Language, Religion

    2014 and 2015 Opinion Polls

    Interesting what you say about external influences – that’s our big issue now, changing the record as to what people take on board. I think the notion of buying a few copies of the National and leaving them in public spaces will help if the front page headline is a good one because people will wander past and the headline will lodge somewhere in their mind, and go a little way to counteract the media onslaught of the Unionist press. We need to do more of it. It doesn’t matter if they don’t pick it up or engage further – we know what a headline does!

    That is a possible and very doable way of getting the Scots Tory Dark Money scandal out into the wider consciousness if Indy folk all bought a few copies and placed them in public spaces across Scotland.

  65. HandandShrimp says:

    I see the BBC are saying up to 4,000 were at the Orange Parade today down on the anticipated 5,000 in earlier reports. I must say I expected more given it was such a high profile opportunity to go Brit Nat Union Flaggy.

    Puts the joyous 15,000 at Stirling last week into perspective 🙂

  66. Welsh Sion says:

    Scottish Steve says:

    30 June, 2018 at 2:40 pm

    Must be a uniquely Scottish trait. Ireland endured 800 years of English and then British rule but they still threw off the yoke and are quite happy ruling themselves. I guess too many Scots are cringe merchants or truly believe they are equal in this union and are British through and through.


    Sorryt to disappoint you, Scottish Steve, but I’m sure you’d be aware that it ain’t necessarily “a uniquely Scottish trait.”

    I claim no pride in the fact that a lot of my countrymen and women have been “Britishized” (brutalised?) into the earth by our eastern neighbour. This after a much longer and deeper affecting “Union” than Scotland had.

    But neither of us are here to try and claim the award of the “Best Colonised England/Brit territory.” Rather, time to roll up our sleeves, spit onm our hands, and work together for the independence that we know will be good for our respective peoples.

    Yours, aye,


  67. Artyhetty says:

    Scotland’s fcukd then.

    Lamont meant exactly what she disgustingly blabbered, ‘not genetically programmed’ ie, too freaking stupid. No English politician would ever say that about their country, not in a million years!!

    What she didn’t follow up with was that the people of Scotland have been so violently oppressed, put down, ridiculed, and kept poor and begging for centuries, ( while the thieves stole Scotland’s revenues, and abundant resources) that their genes only do, ‘keep shafting the heck out of my country thanks rUK’. Because we sure as hell need England to keep doing that, and they will.

    We have ‘New Waverley’, England’s brand new ( brand being important ) spanking offices, to keep the jocks in their place, surprised they didn’t call it North Brutish office for Scotland. Might as well have.

    Talking to son today who attends various groups, including with a majority of foreign nationals, and he says though politics is avoided in conversation, the general gist is that nearly everyone believes that ‘Scotland should be independent’.

    Just what the heck is wrong then with the people of Scotland, Johann Lamont might have the answer.

  68. robertknight says:

    Proves that it is the Scottish people who will forever believe that their country is indeed too wee, too poor and the inhabitants too stupid to be normal. The inevitable conclusion to draw is that the majority of people here don’t consider themselves as deserving of a life in a better place.

    In which case there’s nothing else for it… If Scotland won’t leave the UK, then I’m afraid I’ll just have to leave Scotland – and I’ll do my utmost to encourage my kids to do likewise. I don’t want them left here amongst the little Englander stereotypes which will become the norm among those left dwelling on this post-Brexit island.

    What an altogether s**t state of affairs when the only option left is to get the hell out of the land of your birth, which you’ll forever call home, simply because of the people. Your so-called fellow countrymen.

    Longshanks’ quote in Braveheart comes to mind…

    “The trouble with Scotland is that it’s full of Scots”

    More like…

    “The trouble with Scotland is that it’s full of Brits”

  69. Highland Wifie says:

    You do wonder what WM has to do to Scotland before people say enough is enough. Is it just total ignorance of what’s going on or total apathy bred of brainwashing?

    If genuine full devolution of powers was on offer then I think independence would be kicked into the long grass because it’s clear many Scots don’t see Scotland as a nation but they do want control over our affairs. But since there’s no way WM will ever allow us to have a fully devolved government (because that would let the cat out of the bag) there is only one option and that’s independence. Almost half of us now see that.
    Our job is to get a good proportion of the other half to see it too.

    We each need to convince only one person. If we do that we’ll win.

  70. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ RJS: “I don’t see any evidence to support that contention.”

    Absolutely, but I don’t see any up-to-date evidence to support it being at the same, or higher level than two years ago. It’s evidence that I’m after; both of us are making assumptions.
    I’m interested to find out if there is a sizeable proportion of those who say they would vote for an independent Scotland in the EU responding that way because they either don’t give two fucks about the EU and only care about independence, or would rather Brussels has nothing to do with it, but because of the restrictive answer options they just plump for the one with ‘independence’ in it, so desperate are they.

    “Personally, I would be perfectly happy to revisit the issue once an independent Scotland is up and running, and I am not in the least afraid of the likely result.”

    On that, we are in harmonious agreement.

  71. Scotspatriot says:

    This poll just confirms my own instincts. When the bell rings for round Two, I’ll be working day and night to expose the mind conditioning merchants. Maybe I didn’t work hard enough last time round.

  72. CameronB Brodie says:

    Holly Teine
    Sorry, but just my luck. I’m pretty sure I found it in the most recent study by David McCrone, et al. I posted a link to it, for Highland Wifey, a while back. Perhaps she kept it? I’m afraid my time is tight or I’d keep looking. I’m pretty sure I found it in here though.

    Apologies if I’m misleading folk.

    Here’s another couple of useful links though, IMHO anyway. 🙂

    The End of Being British?

    Scottish or British? Does national identity matter?

    N.B. Both publications should be considered in light of Brexit, which changes everything.

  73. Scottish Steve says:

    @Welsh Scion

    Good point. My apologies. I’ve just been feeling very pessimistic about the indy vote second time around. I was hopeful the first time and had my hopes dashed with the No vote. So I’m more cynical about it now.

  74. Abulhaq says:

    The current spell of mediterranean weather in most of Scotland raises the matter of our country having its own meteorological bureau instead of the one based in Exeter, with a branch in Aberdeen and other ‘remote’ sic locations in the UK, and the other meteo outfit based in Holland, as used by the BBC.
    With our own set up we would not have to put up with the yawn of London weather items as dished up as ‘national news’.
    Climatic data are, among other things, necessary for land development and use and clean energy schemes. It is our weather after all. In these times of major climate change we need the local facts relative to this important science direct.

  75. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    *Oh, and of course I’d like to see if a sizeable amount of that 51% for staying in the union and out of the EU may seep into the deliberately-absent third option. I would expect the second option to remain fairly bouyant, however, especially with ~70% of the 500,000 glish-born pissing on our chips.

  76. Highland Wifie says:

    @Cameron B
    @Holly Teine
    Sorry I didn’t keep the link. I would have to trawl back to can’t remember when.

  77. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here are a few more for folk interested in protecting Scotland’s identity from cultural chauvinism.


    “New Zealand is demographically multicultural, formally bicultural, and withfew exceptions, institutionally monocultural.” Associate Professor James Liu,
    School of Psychology, Victoria University of Wellington (Liu 2007)

    Competing approaches to population diversity are not unique to New Zealand, and wherever they are found in contemporary societies they raise difficult normative questions: Are our cultural arrangements fair and just? What criteria of fairness and justice should we use to evaluate them? If these arrangements fall short of our standards, how should they be changed? When is multiculturalism, biculturalism, or monoculturalism appropriate, if ever?

    Rapid global trends towards population heterogeneity have propelled the search for theoretical principles and practical programmes that can settle group-based disputes, guide social policy, and resolve once and for all the seemingly endless debates between biculturalists, multiculturalists, and advocates of a unitary national identity. Personal and political slogans – such as “I heart cultural diversity” (Shying 2008) or “Put the brakes on immigration” (Peters 2002) – try to fill this niche, but they tend to fuel conflict rather than dampening it. A new book by David Bromell, Ethnicity, Identity and Public Policy: Critical Perspectives on Multiculturalism (hereafter EIPP) offers a welcome alternative to the slogans and sound-bite wars.

    Future Identities: Changing identities in the UK – the next 10 years
    DR 7: How will ideology affect notions of identity in the next 10 years?


  78. Welsh Sion says:

    No worries, Scottish Steve – although the apologies are welcome.

    Thank you also though for adding to my ever-growing list of variants for my first name! (If you look up “off topic” on here, you’ll see how to say it correctly, too.) Mind you, “Scion of the Welsh” does have a certain appeal, doesn’t it? And it does apply to my politics and my ancestors, too. (“Welsh” though is rather an unfortunate Anglo-Saxon term to describe us – i.e. “the foreigners” – as is “Wales”, but I guess we have to use these terms for the time being, until others start using “Cymru” and “Cymry”, naturally.)

    All the best from England.

  79. CameronB Brodie says:

    Highland Wifie
    Sorry, I can’t remember the date but the article was the one about Gordon Brown talking mince about Scottish attitudes towards identity (reported in a red-top, I think). He was twisting David McCrone’s work like a right twister, if I remember correctly.

  80. louis.b.argyll says:

    Cultists, Royalists, Conservatives, lazy ignorant blazer-worshippers..

  81. galamcennalath says:

    The weather has been forcing me outdoors and away from the internet, so I haven’t read any comments.

    The first thing which struck me as missing is that a significant chunk of Scots simply don’t see Scotland as ‘real’ country like the others mentioned.

    For Scottish resident Proud-Buts, BritNats, Cringers, OO, Wannabe English, and other assorted political degenerates, see Scotland as simply the Northern region of their UK / Greater England.

    When folks with that mindset look at and answer questions, their whole thought process is quite different from ours.

    For them independence is at best a joke, and at worst a threat to their identity and belief system.

  82. Welsh Sion says:

    @ Cameron B Brodie, @ Highland Wifie and @ Holly Teine.

    Have you tried googling – something like “Gordon Brown” “Scottish ethnicity” and so forth? (The inverted commas are deliberate – for those unsure of how Google works, if you put in expressions between inverted commas then the whole expression will show up, and not be scattered across “hits”. I should know, I’m moonlighting on here whilst translating a lot of background stuff for Google into Welsh.)

    Failing that, and I know I could be shot down for suggesting something that might be considered “consortingwith the enemy”. But El Gordo does hasve a book out, “My Scotland, Our Britain: A Future Worth Sharing”. (Never read it myself … ‘onest, guv!)

  83. Breeks says:

    Result doesn’t surprise me at all.

    Nobody is promoting the benefits of an Independent Scotland, and nobody is promoting the vital interests we have in staying part of the EU.

    The public is being left to its own resources, and only a minority are getting their information online. The greater majority are abandoned to the propagandists who dominate the mainstream media.

    So let’s all just “wait and see” if anything changes by the Autumn.

    What a truly inspired strategy…

  84. ScottieDog says:

    High 40s is still a miracle if you take into account the media. I was with 3 work colleagues who were discussing Love Island yesterday. No one realises the gravity of the situation here because they aren’t being told. They are being ‘entertained’, like the Romans did towards the end of that empire.

  85. Brian Powell says:

    Yet they want decisions concerning Scotland to be made in Holyrood, by a big majority. Actually people can be made to vote against their own self interests. They disagree with something, then vote for it.

  86. Abulhaq says:

    In India you can can find people of a certain age who hint that things were ‘better’ under the British.
    When it is pointed out to them all the negatives of the Raj they still cling to the notion, although few manage to define what ‘better’ actually entailed. I doubt clubs with signs reading No Indians, except as barmen, porters etc, was part of the ‘better’.
    It is usually pointless arguing with this breed of rose tinted nostalgia. One ends up begging to differ.
    Pointing out to no oriented Scots what the Union cost in real terms to Scotland as a nation, the internal wars, emigration, land clearances and appropriation etc and the rosy tint too clouds the eyes.
    Fear? Stupidity? Ignorance? Whatever the psychology it can be granite hard. Dynamite; intellectual, ideological and political will be needed to shift this mountain.

  87. galamcennalath says:

    ScottieDog says:

    ‘entertained’, like the Romans did towards the end of that empire


    Classic mushroom farming … fed bullshit and kept in the dark.

  88. Scottish Steve says:

    @Welsh Sion

    Oops! Sorry about the misspelling. Although scion is cool too. Get your arse up here and vote Yes! 😛

  89. Col says:

    We have to really highlight that so called unionism equals subjugation of Scotland by our larger neighbor and we would be voting for nothing more than to remain a colony under London control. Recent events clearly show our unionist mp’s are not even interested in fighting our corner in westminster. Only doing their masters dirty work for them. Independence is aspirational, subjugation is the opposite. What a bad signal it would be for a second time shunning indy for more of the same.

  90. Bobp says:

    Those people who would see us under westminsters heel, after all thats already passed,are no countryfolk of mine.

  91. Holly Teine says:

    @ Cameron B Brodie, @ Highland Wifie, @Welsh Sion

    I’ve skimmed a couple of David McCrone’s recent articles, and done a quick G Brown/ethnicity Google and not come up with anything more recent than the census/SSAS data I mentioned in my other post which is quoted in the articles I had a look at, the most recent of which was last year I think.

  92. Ottomanboi says:

    @Welsh Sion
    I was told by a guy from Gwynedd that Scotland had strong local connexions. I was totally in ignorance of any links. Then he explained. I was enthralled, Manaw Gododdin, Cunedda, battle of Catraeth, the place names strewn across the lowlands, Dinas Eiddyn, Glas Cau, Badd goed etc
    Coming from a background cosmopolitan and culturally sensitive I wallow in this kind of mix. Scotland does need re-education about its history. The foetid, smothering blanket of unionism must go.
    Prynhawn da i chi!

  93. Highland Wifie says:

    @Cameron B
    @ Holly Teine

    Found a link from you Cameron on 7th November 5.27pm referencing David McCrone in a post that includes news article about G Brown. Post titled “The Fantasist”
    Could that be it?

  94. Bobp says:

    Liz 11.32am. When on holiday abroad my english wife and i come across many Scots. Pre sep 2014 i always made a point to be friendly and chatty to them. ‘ I have a large ‘ yes’ tattoo on my leg, post 2014 when talking to ‘Scots’ on french and spanish campsites, i can tell from their demeanour when spotting said tattoo if they are yes or PSB’s. If the latter i usually make my excuse and take my leave of them. Like i said they are no countryfolk of mine. And before anyone says these people need to be persuaded/converted, sorry, they are beyond that.

  95. galamcennalath says:

    Brian Powell says:

    They disagree with something, then vote for it.

    Lack of open balanced discussion in any traditional media, limited information, fragmented details, fakery and deception, leaves people who aren’t naturally enquiring without a ‘joined up’ political understanding. They are left not understanding the interrelationships of different things – to them, they think about those things in isolation.

    Polls still show the phenomenon where some people will vote SNP for Holyrood, yet something else for WM. Or, yes supporters who fail to see that Indy will never happen without a pro Indy majority in Holyrood. Or, yessers not turning out at every vote and not appreciating a strong pro Indy result always matters at every level. Or, many people not understanding what is devolved and what is reserved. Or even people being guided by the nostalgia they know, rather than a better future they should know is possible.

    I put most apparent anomalies down to poor information dissemination and therefore limited understanding.

  96. Legerwood says:

    Capella says:
    30 June, 2018 at 2:19 pm
    “”Armed Forces Day. BBC damp squib of a report today. When you recall that on the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn in 2014 AFD was staged in a field next to Bannockburn…””

    It was not held in a field next to Bannockburn but in a field below Stirling Castle. The field in question had a lot of money spent on it to bring it up to scratch for the event. Lots of controversy locally about that spending but Council said it would be used for other events.

    No other events have been held there as far as I am aware.

    Stirling Council at the time was a Tory/Labour coalition. Whole thing caused a bit of a stooshie because a senior member of the Administration had put Stirling forward for the event without letting the full council know what was happening.

  97. mike cassidy says:


    I offer this without comment – except it wouldn’t archive!

  98. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Must be a uniquely Scottish trait. Ireland endured 800 years of English and then British rule but they still threw off the yoke and are quite happy ruling themselves.”

    Don’t think so, Scottish Steve. It was only once Irish people (and one Scot, tied to a chair and shot) started dying in numbers in 1916 that their own “West Britons” saw the light and left the Dark Side.

    Fortunately, I think WM disdain and Brexit will be enough to convince waverers that the future’s bright, the future’s Scotland.

    Not long now…

  99. Francis Waring says:

    Why do the SNP ‘defy the laws of electoral gravity’, with no great swing against them (in Holyrood or Westminster elections) after many years in power in Edinburgh?
    Because the SNP takes Scottish politics, Scottish policy, Scottish government seriously: Labour, Conservative and LibDems, in contrast, are primarily interested in getting MPs at Westminster — their principle aim in Scottish politics is keeping the Union together. I’m fairly sure that every Labour, Conservative or LibDem MSP would far rather be an MP (or a Lord, of course). No surprise that it’s hard to get strong support for candidates who would rather be elected somewhere else….
    Why doesn’t this electoral support for the SNP translate to majority support for independence? Because most people are quite risk-averse. That’s the problem.

  100. Cactus says:

    49, good marking starter point for Yesindyref2… ah ‘ll take it.

    It is Saturday, RA SUN is well and truly out.. it is HOT!

    There’s a party a goin’ on in Glasgow Green.

    Here’s a wee Saturday night sparkler tae get ye’s gaun: 😉
    (Hear the words of Mel.)



    SCOTLAND is the best country in this world.

    Have YOU ever shouted SCOTLAND out LOUD before…?

    What other WORD can you shout out LOUD that sounds SO good?

    YOU should try it..

    I do it all the time

    It is intentional 😉


  101. louis.b.argyll says:

    A first question like-

    Which is more important..?

    A. Your future.

    B. Your ego.

    Might ease tensions.

  102. Welsh Sion says:

    Scottish Steve says:

    30 June, 2018 at 4:46 pm

    Oops! Sorry about the misspelling. Although scion is cool too. Get your arse up here and vote Yes! ?


    Ha, ha, ha. You appreciate I have an almost full-time job down here trying to convert the natives … being a Member of both PC and SNP, it kinda goes with that particular territory.

    Otherwise, you may also know that I write and publish song parodies and fables (in English) for the indy movements.


    Holly Teine @ 5.03 pm

    Happy searching!


    Ottomanboi says:

    30 June, 2018 @ 5:03 pm

    This “guy from Gwynedd” (< Vendotia) wouldn't happen to be me, would it … and we've actually met at SNP Conference or on an indy march? (Last for me was Edinburgh, 2013, I think) and I got to meet a fair amount of indy supporters, wearing my red dragon flag).

    If you want more info regarding the British-Welsh (historical sense) background of your homeland, do let me know. I'm a bit of Celticist, too and have an MA in Celtic Studies (Prifysgol Cymru, 2011).

  103. louis.b.argyll says:

    ‘Polls still show the phenomenon where some people will vote SNP for Holyrood, yet something else for WM’

    I’d say that kinda proves they’re heavily twisted by age and the historical behaviour of the certain demographic who protects their earnings before protecting social standards.

  104. Dan Huil says:

    We’ve had “events of recent weeks” and I’m sure there will be more “events” by the SNP and the Scottish government in the weeks ahead, epecially when brexit crashes.

    Keep kicking the Westminster britnats.

    And keep the banners marching for Yes.

  105. crazycat says:

    @ Artyhetty at 3.32

    I met Johann Lamont a couple of times in the mid 1990s. She appeared to me to be as thick as mince. When she was elected as an MSP, I thought this was a depressing indictment of the (lack of) talent in SLab. That she became leader possibly says more about the calibre of the candidates she defeated (Tom Harris and Ken Macintosh) than about her.

    Nevertheless, there is a difference between “genetically programmed” and “genetically capable”. If she had said that Scots were not genetically capable of making poliical decisions, that would indeed be an insult.

    But she didn’t say that. Someone who is genetically programmed to do something lacks free will. Their decisions are determined by their genes.

    So it might actually be a compliment, except that
    a) the distinction might be beyond her, and
    b) if that is what she meant, she may have intended to imply that people vote Labour because it’s such a wonderful party, rather than because their forefathers all voted that way.

    (For what it’s worth, Lallands Peat Worrier shares my interpretation of her comment:

    In trying and failing to be impressive, she leaves a mangled wreckage of loosely strung together words and concepts, exemplified by her statement, during the referendum campaign, that “Scots aren’t genetically programmed to make political decisions.” What she meant by that remark was that Scottish political inclinations are not inborn or inevitable – but instead served up an eminently quotable suggestion that ye and me are a chromosome or two short of the full governing set.

    When I first read that in his blog, I was relieved that I was not the only person who had understood her differently, though unlike him I certainly don’t have a soft spot for her, and I still think she’s thick!)

  106. Cactus says:

    It’s the holidays, the football is on, it’s the Summer of Scotland 2018, Glasgow Green is pure jumpin’ wae music, ahm gonna take a chance on the main thread like…

    New game… Play a song and nominate for next…:

    (At this time) aye NOMINATE you Tinto Chiel ~

    If you change your mind…

    Let us play a game.

    Play & nominate TC…

  107. Cactus says:

    Sometimes music needs no words.

  108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bobp @ 17:14,

    If you’re not for converting these people, I’m curious as to what your proposed strategy would be to deal with them come the next indyref, where they will have a vote anyway just like the rest of us?

    (Assuming you are serious about winning, that is.)

    Hopefully something better than just helplessly watch them all trot out, vote “no” and win again, feel righteously aggrieved and moan incessantly about it afterwards?

    (The usual Scottish cringe in action once more, in other words… )

  109. Cactus says:

    Before TC, aye nominate YOU good friend Michael McCabe

    SCOTLAND is still the best country in this world!!!

    What you gonna play Michael?

  110. Cactus says:

    Nominating ALL Wings Over Scotland readers, play n nominate 🙂

    Currently: Stats: 4,815 Posts, 771,466 Comments

    Make that 771,467.

  111. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cactus:challenge accepted, Sirrah!

    Thinking of your complexion (or stomach), mon vieux:

    I multi-nominate (saves time): Smallaxe, Ian B, Capella, crazycat, Welsh Sion.

    Fearing hammers already….

  112. Naina Tal says:

    Holly Teine Agree with you totally re The National. I’m around Central Scotland all day and “accidentally” leave the National front page on my dashboard every day. In various car parks.. As a Britnat company said Every little helps.

  113. Scottish Steve says:

    @Tinto Chiel

    We’ll see. Scots have proven recently they’re willing to put up with all kinds of shite if it means retaining the precious, precious Union.

    @Welsh Sion

    Nice one. Wouldn’t mind hearing some of those songs. Good luck in your endeavour to achieve an independent Wales. I think you have a much tougher task than us Scot Nats do. I hope that one day, all the nations of these islands can flourish together as equal, independent states.

  114. Bobp says:

    RJS 6.26 Oh ive not got the Scottish cringe, but if you and others can overturn the jockholm syndrone, then good luck to you.

  115. Ottomanboi says:

    @Welsh Sion
    Doubt it was me it was 10 in 2013….a tiresomely precocious 10, im told, thanks to rathet older siblings.
    Cosmopolitanism my idée fixe. My ancestors came from Egypt. Ottomans, with a good splash of ‘Syrian’, who helped run the place, autocratically naturally, before the Brits and went rather out of fashion circa 1960. Spare a piastre efendi? LOL
    Cultural mélange is good whether ancient or modern. Good for the brain too!
    Un jour nous serons libres…tous! Cymru am byth!

  116. Cactus says:

    ACDC with our TC, a most excellent jolter ~~~ 🙂 way cool!

    Ian Brotherhood knows.

    Here’s one for you bro BRO:


  117. Welsh Sion says:

    Scottish Steve says:

    30 June, 2018 at 6:51 pm

    @Welsh Sion:

    Nice one. Wouldn’t mind hearing some of those songs.


    Tag me here in the “Off Topic” section and I’ll share with you the appropriate link.

  118. Scottish Steve says:

    @Welsh Sion

    Done. Looking forward to hearing you.

  119. starlaw says:

    BBC saying 4,000 at the OO parade in Cowdenbeath, take away the bands, the bands followers, and you are not left with very many, of whom most are pensioners.

  120. Holly Teine says:

    @Naina Tal

    Perhaps we need to start a “Dashboard Campaign”! It’ll only take a second for a headline to register with folk, and if they see enough of them then they might begin to wonder why what they’re reading is never on the news.

  121. David Mills says:

    Stockholm syndrome

  122. Dr Jim says:

    Nicola Sturgeon thinks Danny Dyers comment was brilliant and Yoonworld goes mad at her coz it’s all part of her dastardly plan for the UK to fail and Mr Dyer a favoured actor in England all of a sudden can’t act anymore and should keep his mouth shut

    Bu what’s really funny is Mr Dyer can see now he didn’t have a clue what he was voting for or against and is prepared to admit it but Yoonworld hates him now because they don’t have the decency he has to admit they didn’t know either

    They’ll be throwing their faeces at one another soon, Nah for most of them that would be an evolutionary step forward

  123. Cactus says:

    Before aye go out, will you do me and Scotland the pleasure of another s’il vous please here Thepnr…?

    Dr Jim…




  124. Capella says:

    @ Scottish Steve – after he was released from prison Éamon de Valera, who also had United states citizenship, went to America and raised a lot of money from the Irish diaspora. He used it to set up a national newspaper so that the Irish people could have access to the other side of the story.

    That’s what we could be doing.

  125. naina tal says:

    Holly Teine: Right!That’s it started. Any other takers? Maybe no you Rock, though.

  126. Cactus says:

    Doin’ it again…

    “Before aye go out, will you do me and Scotland the pleasure of another s’il vous please here Thepnr…?

    Dr Jim…


    Nominate you… DJ”

    Poetic licence, watch out for poetic delay posters 😉

    All of the time.


  127. Cactus says:

    SCOTLAND is still the bestest ever country in this world!!!

    Who knew.

    U knew.


  128. Big Jock says:

    Look going into a referendum on 50/50 is pretty good. It’s only going to get worse for the yoons. I am delighted that we could start a campaign with equal numbers. By the way those indi Brexit voters will come back when it comes to the poll booth. That’s our winning 5%.

    Let’s do this people!

  129. naina tal says:

    Went along to Bo’ness Fair yesterday. A great day but I did notice around the toun although a great many flags were in evidence, almost no UJs.
    In previous years they were all over the place. In the parade Saltires all over,even on the fermers’ big shiny new tractors!!!! Only 2 wee butchers aprons in the hail shebang. They were on a cooncil motor. Mind it had twa big saltires an aw! We are winning…….

    Held up this morning by a OO parade. believe it or believe it not they had a great big saltire flag! (As weel of coorse as the obligatory uj and the reed haun o Ulster thing).

  130. Big Jock says:

    Naina same in Bathgate Gala day. No UJ in the parade full stop. 98% of crowd had saltires.

    The wee man selling the flags had some Butchers aprons. They weren’t selling. A man and his wife were buying flags. She picked up a butchers ane. Her Hubbie put it back down and said your no hub in that. She said whit we are no allowed a British flag! He said no chance. Yep things are changing.

  131. Robert Peffers says:

    @Holly Teine says: 30 June, 2018 at 11:24 am:

    “We are running out of time. We desperately need a media presence to work against State propaganda, but it seems a near impossible task. Demographically Scotland will be independent one day, just so frustrating that we have no access to influential media now that could provide some facts instead of the lies we constantly expend energy refuting.”

    Just by coincidence, (or is it), the loss making TV channel STV2 will finally go off air tonight,(30 June), permanently.

    The Company said its local TV licences had been sold to a company which runs local stations south of the border. So while channels down south are expanding those in Scotland are in rapid decline as the people of Scotland are going off Westminster controlled media of all kinds. Yet only one publication stands up for Scottish rights.

    The Broadcasters and the dead tree press are really feeling the pinch just now but they would rather go bust that just report the facts correctly and without bias so that the people they broadcast to would read, view and listen to the media.

    Here’s an article about the precarious state of Johnston Press finances. Johnston Press owns, “The Scotsman”:-

    Here’s an extract from the article:-

    “Shares in Johnston Press fell by 17 per cent today after the group said rising paper costs and the impact of new data protection rules on advertising revenues added to an already challenging trading environment.

    The group, which publishes the Scotsman, Yorkshire Post and i newspaper, said revenues slumped 9 per cent since the beginning of the year and would continue to be under pressure in the second half.

    For this reason, more ‘cost savings’ will become necessary. Shares in the group fell 17 per cent to 7.10p.”

    At 7.10p that means the Scotsman newspaper could be picked up for a song and I know Alex Salmond has a very good singing voice and not so long ago I read that Alex was involved in a group very interested in buying “The Scotsman”.

    Perhaps things are about to take a new turn for the better.

  132. Robert Peffers says:

    Robert Peffers says: 30 June, 2018 at 8:16 pm:


    Small error in my previous comment – the price I quoted for The Scotsman’s shares should read, “7.10p per share

  133. NodToBob says:

    Too many zoomers out there, Stu. The place is still full of old folks who are blinded by Britain, jacking themselves off (if they still can) to the thought of Empire 2.0 and a return to the 1950s. And far too many in my generation (the 50 somethings) who just want an easy life. My generation will sell every right that our forefathers and foremothers fought for, just for a quarter percent cut in interest rates. The lure of a beige lifestyle is all consuming for some: a trip to the garden centre on a Wednesday and a bottle of cheap supermarket plonk at the weekend is the summit of their ambition. Fuck the young, fuck the future, fuck Scotland; I’m alright Jack. I fear things will only really start to change once enough of this lot move on. In the meantime, we should be taking the message out to the young, normalising them to the idea of an independent Scotland. Another Scotland is still definitely possible and we now need to get on with it.

  134. Robert Peffers says:

    @Geordie says: 30 June, 2018 at 12:09 pm:

    “I like this talk of acquiring The Hootsmon. How about a crowd-funded ‘community’ buy-out?”

    I don’t know if you are aware, Geordie, that Alex Salmond was involved with a group who were actively interested in buying the Scotsman. It was briefly mentioned but then went very quiet. I had thought the reason it had gone quiet was because when there is such talk it tends to boost the share prices of the companies that are subject to takeover bids.

    If I remember correctly Alex stated that he would not be involved personally in the running of a taken over Scotsman but would probably have his programmes published by it.

    We will just have to wait and see how things turn out.

  135. Daisy Walker says:

    Yesterday, I was speaking with a former NO voter. He is deeply, deeply worried about Brexit.

    He doesn’t see his last vote as any form of betrayal, in his words, ‘Scotland wasn’t ready and the case wasn’t made’. Now however, now, ‘if it keeps on like this, we’ll have nothing to lose by going Indy’. And now, he is asking questions, now, the discussion and swapping of information is happening (and believe me I tried in 2014, but it was a closed door).

    If he comes over to Yes (and I’m very hopeful) with him will likely come his wife (I know her, so I’m not being sexist), his eldest son, and his eldest son’s mates.

    The main stream media, doing all that they can, are forgetting one thing, since the Brexit vote, not one single, tiny, little bit of good news about Brexit has come out, nothing. Even those who voted out of fear of furriners… even they are beginning to realise, the EU is an awful lot more complicated than that.

    Onto that ground, sprinkle a little bit of bad news.

    The bankers Austerity hit the UK’s Gross Domestic Product by 2%.

    Westminster Impact Analysis into Brexit has the following cuts

    Soft Brexit hit GPD by another 2% a cut in 700,000 jobs, an estimated 80,000 in Scotland
    Middling by 5%
    Hard Brexit 8% A cut in 2,700,000 jos

    And all so the already seriously rich can keep their stashes in Off Shore Tax Havens and screw more money out of us when our loved ones are ill and there is no longer an NHS.

    I saw the link about the 5,000 civil servant jobs being ‘created’ in Edinburgh and the suspicion they are there to carry out a hostile take over bid.

    If this is true, or even likely to be true, we need to plan.

    Ideally we need to win Indy Ref 2 before it they can do this.

    In the last 5 years there has been a significant number of English Police Officers who have transferred to Scotland. They do a very good job, this is not a rallying cry to hound them. However, the Police in England swear allegiance to the Crown. The Police in Scotland give oath to faithfully execute the office of Constable.

    All our Police Officers need to have very clear, legal guidance with regards their legal and constitutional duties in the event of ‘civil unrest’ and army involvement. And it should not be left to the last minute for folk to scratch about and find it. This is something the Scottish Government need to do, and do soon.

    And that comes down to us supporters, we must not provide Westminster with any excuse to introduce the army. Not that we would, but in all the other countries who have been in our shoes, the Establishment introduced ‘rabble rousers’ to stir things and muddy the waters.

    If the above plan is indeed real, we may need to be prepared to stock pile essentials, and divvy them out, till we get indy. A big ask. If we start stocking up now, it will be more do-able on our wallets than later on. And if it doesn’t happen, we won’t have to shop for a while;)

    All of which sounds very dramatic and far fetched. But 2 things remain true.

    England is bankrupt, and the only part of the UK (particularly now the London Banks are going) which is generating any income on the international market is Scotland and its energy.

    Brexit is the biggest threat to all of the UK since World War 2.

    Every conversion to YES we get puts the wind up the English Establishment further. Scotland is the cash cow, they absolutely cannot afford to lose us.

    So, one conversation at a time, one bit of decency at a time, one fact at a time, one bag of provisions at a time, one plan at a time. Now we must.

  136. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bobp @ 18:51,

    Yes, I agree with you, there certainly does seem to be a Jockholm syndrome.

    But I’m still waiting on your positive solution…

    (Since just ignoring it is hardly likely to work better than last time, is it…?)

  137. Iain says:

    Looks like some old people fear change denying the majority of the Scottish people freedom from foreign rule and Brexit.
    Time will inevitably take its course.
    But could people not realise that in the world small countries are the most prospous and British pensions are amongst the lowest in the European Union.
    Pensions will rise, while an impoverished England will struggle to pay even it’s low pension.
    UK is now a tier two nation in defence terms.
    The English nhs struggle from crisis to crisis with many operations off the agenda.
    Why would anyone want to be chained to the sinking ship of England.

  138. Rock says:

    “But it’s increasingly clear that around half of the people of Scotland really DO believe that they and their countryfolk are idiots who shouldn’t be allowed to be in charge of themselves, and that no other nation in the world is as useless as us.”

    Rock (2nd January 2015 – “The Ne’erday Game”):

    “Unfortunately, we have among us the most stupid people on the planet. Given the chance of 300 years, those who should have known better voted No.

    Now just 3 months later, or just a minute after voting No if a tale on another thread is to be believed, they claim they would now vote Yes.

    Throughout history and throughout the world, including here, people have died for independence. And we voted peacefully to reject it.”

  139. Iain says:

    Some people believe that the Scottish people deserve freedom.
    And some people are paid trolls.
    Freedom awaits!

  140. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Daisy Walker @ 20:58,

    It’s a good story that, because “what have we got to lose?” is likely to unlock quite a number of cautious former-no’s. The MSM can hide away we independistas to a large extent, but it can’t hide away the accumulation of relentless Brexit bad news.

    There was an interesting wee snippet in today’s National – a possible portent of things to come. Barclay’s Bank have apparently just taken out a short-term lease of ground in Uddingston, so are evidently putting in place a contingency strategy to relocate a chunk of their business in the event that rUK leaves and Scotland goes independent within the EU.

    A quietly-understated reversal of “brassplategate” back in 2014. An actual positive for independence instead!

    A straw in the wind, of course, but maybe just the first of many such moves. The media will ignore, of course, but hopefully people will start picking up on that anyway.

  141. cearc says:


    ‘…are amongst the lowest in the European Union.’

    They ARE the lowest not only in europe but of all OECD countries .

  142. Bobp says:

    RJS 9.04pm .So whats your positive solution? Given the worsening situation now facing all the PSB’s who have now chosen to stick their heads up their a***s re brexit,job losses, austerity,foodbanks.etc etc. And whom if you told today was saturday, they would state categorically, No its sunday.

  143. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jim McIntosh says: 30 June, 2018 at 1:06 pm:

    ” … Although for the life of me I can’t understand how ceding 15% of your powers to Brussels can be worse than ceding 85% to WM.”

    Perhaps, Jim, the reason you cannot see why ceding 15% of your powers is because no one cedes powers to Europe.

    The European Union is not simply just a democracy run parliament that works by a simple majority and in which the minority must concede to the will of the majority.

    The EU, first of all, works by consensus but second of all every member state has a veto. Furthermore, The EU cannot impose its will upon any member state.

    As every member state has a veto nothing can get through the EU parliament without all members agreement to it – for if any member state uses its veto whatever the matter is/was under a vote cannot be passed.

    There are many prime examples of that to be found throughout the EU. For example all members mast have agreed that all member states should adopt the Euro or there wouldn’t be a Euro currency. Yet the United Kingdom has not ever adopted the Euro and neither has Sweden, Bulgaria, Croatia, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania and there are actually several non-EU member states that use the Euro.

    That is how consensus politics works and the veto insures that it works. Many people accuse the EU of abusing Greece over their financial state but the truth is that the Greeks must have agreed to the terms they were subject to or they would have vetoed the terms. The Greeks then went on to ignore the terms they had agreed to.

    In the final analysis, the Greeks accepted the austerity because they knew full well it was their faults and failings, and not the fault or failings of the EU, that landed them in trouble. Note that the Greeks did NOT stop use of the Euro and return to the use of The Drachma when the EU was forced to take action.

    You really cannot believe the claptrap the Westminster Propaganda Wing throws at you. Like shite some of the propaganda sticks – no matter how hard you might try to shake it off.

  144. Bobp says:

    Iain 9.07pm. When i tell psb’s, some family members included that we have the lowest state pension in europe, they dont reply, just gaze at me with a bovine expression.

  145. Meg merrilees says:

    Capella @2.19

    The Armed Forces day that clashed with the Bannockburn centenary x 7 ( 700 years) anniversary was supposed to have been held in Portsmouth ( Plymouth?) and was all about how wonderful the Royal Navy s.

    The good folks in the South British coastal town were none too chuffed to lose their celebration since many of them are Navy Families and they commented at the time on the embarrassingly poor turnout for the Stirling event which, had it been held in the South would have been mobbed.

    Then there was the ridiculous sight of the Royal Navy demonstrating various manoeuvres on dry land, with search and rescue helicopters etc… and we all went about shaking our heads because Stirling is SO well known ( not) for being a coastal town and for it’s association with the R. Navy. If I remember the photos of the event were taken from selective angles to try and create a sense of people attending en masse.

    Such a glaring political cock-up it would be hard to replicate.

  146. Cactus says:

    One has landed Rev Stu…

    Clutha callin’!

    Come n noin us…

    People keep wanting to try my hat on…

    What like!

  147. t42 says:

    EU foreign policy decisions should be made by majority votes, not by consensus, Germany’s defence minister has said.

  148. Cal says:

    I’m actually quite heartened by the top line independence question. It’s more or less equality split. The question is almost entirely a theoretical proposition. A sort of “How do feel in your imagination about being outside or inside the EU” kind of question. We’re not out yet and we haven’t felt the consequences of being out yet. Short term at least those consequences will quite probably be severe.

    How will voters feel when stuff really starts happening? Will it tip the delicate balance this poll shows? Which way will it tip – for or against independence?

    What if I tell you that if you vote for Indy then food rationing will stop and you’ll be able to get all those things in the shop again you used to be able to get when we were in the EU? What if I said your kids could get a job again if you vote for Indy? Once the U.K. is out of the EU club, Brussels will be able to say a lot of things it is duty bound currently to be silent on. Club rules dictate that you cannot criticise a fellow member but once you’re out those rules no longer apply. So, what if the EU is telling Scots they’d be welcomed back in with open arms if they just voted to be an independent country again? Which way would it tip that balance?

    If the electorate is 4,000,000 people then 1% is just 40,000 voters and so only 20,000 need to swing towards Indy and you’re there!

  149. Robert Peffers says:

    @Derick fae Yell says: 30 June, 2018 at 2:35 pm:

    ” … We cannot be out of the single market for an extended period.
    The fastest way, by far – literally years – back into the single market is EFTA.”

    That’s jumping the gun, Derick. Before getting, “Back Into”, the European Union you have to be out of the European Union and all it will take for Scotland to assume her rightful place as the people of Scotland have been founder member EU citizens from the day the European Union began.

    All it would take for the Scots to remain EU citizens is the EU to accept the legal facts that the United Kingdom is a not an actual country but is exactly what its official title describes it as – A United Kingdom partnership of two equally sovereign kingdoms. The Treaty of Union only has two equally sovereign signatories. It does not have the signatures of four countries.

    That’s all it will take for the EU to accept that the majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland voted to remain in the European Union and the Legally sovereign Queen of England’s delegated sovereign powers as to the former Parliament of England in 1688 and thus cannot be legally applied to the current Westminster Parliament that only began in 1707.

  150. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bobp @ 21:31,

    Sorry, I asked first…! =laugh=

    (I just want you to recognise that constant denial is certainly not the answer.

    I do admit that some PSBs can be very trying. For the worst intransigents, those most in denial, simply being friendly and assuring them that independence is on its way, whatever they may think. A notion whose time has come. People don’t like to feel that they are on the losing side. Shake their confidence in the nicest possible way.

    A significant majority of Scots have long believed that independence is eventually going to happen, you know. And that time is now.

    Leave them with the impression that they are the ones who are on the road to nowhere, as public opinion is beginning to shift. The historical dead-enders. If nothing else, our own form of demotivating the opposition. =grin=)

  151. Bobp says:

    RJS 10.22pm. Well we can but hope.

  152. Robert Peffers says:

    @Welsh Sion says: 30 June, 2018 at 4:18 pm:

    ” … (The inverted commas are deliberate – for those unsure of how Google works, if you put in expressions between inverted commas then the whole expression will show up, and not be scattered across “hits”. I should know, I’m moonlighting on here whilst translating a lot of background stuff for Google into Welsh.)”

    Hi, Welsh Sion, Can I suggest you try using this version of Google to aid your searching?

    It allows many more options for searches than the standard Google version. It is a real help for complex researching.

    I use it as my home page and have done so for years.

  153. Croompenstein says:

    A dog has shit in my garden, honestly what the fuck are the SNP going to do about this.. wid pit tits clean oan ye..

  154. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Arlene wants us to build a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    Need to speak to Dublin about that by the time the bridge is built Dublin will be paying the bills over thar.

    Bridge might be handy we could get more folk over for Orange walks.

    That would be nice.

  155. HandandShrimp says:

    Catching a bit of TRNSMT on TV. Liam Gallagher…the only man in Scotland right now dressed for rain? God he must be hot in that parka.

  156. Fred says:

    Mebbes we need a Killiecrankie Day as an antidote to Byne Watter?

  157. Ghillie says:

    I wonder if any of the respondents tried to go back and change their earlier choice.

    At the very least Rev Stu, you have maybe got over a thousand folk thinking…and that is quite is some feat.

  158. Cactus says:

    Aye ahm so in the Westering Winds…

    Lovey love.

    Frack Westminster.

    Give me time.

    Hi Rev Stu…

    Are we gettin’ a Sunday toon traveller Chris?

    Look out!

    Crazy 17’s.

  159. Col says:

    We have to make independence seem so inevitable that folk will just tick aye! That’s why the snp should declare that because we are so close and should not give up if a second indy ref is lost that every election there on in will be a mandate for indy.

  160. Cactus says:

    Ahm in ra catty…

    It’s a nightclub in Glasgow.

    We have reception.

    X like.

    Think Yes!

    Cheers Rev.

  161. Cactus says:

    One is on the outside…

    Glasgow’s pure buzzin like.

    Thepnr help buddy…


  162. Cactus says:

    Walkin’ peeps.


    Cairnstoon Sunday mibbies…

    Welcome to ra 2nd half of 2018 like.

    Hi July!

  163. Cactus says:

    Aye woke up under a tree on Glasgow Green…

    The tree is cool.

    Walking back HOME under daylight.

    SCOTLAND as always.

  164. Ghillie says:

    Hope you are home safe now Cactus =)

    Have to say, I like your idea of fracking Westminster 🙂

  165. Ken500 says:

    Arlene Foster is a total,criminal. She should be put in jail. Bigoted, racist, misogynist. The actions of the unionist Parties in NI in breaking U.K. Law is notorious and legendary. An absolute disgrace. Thousands of people have died and had their lives ruined by these lowlifes. They have destroyed their own economy with their pathetic prejudice. It is an absolute disgrace. The DUP stands for corrupt unionists votes in Westminster. They are breaking UK/EU and international rights.

    The rights of people in Ireland have been totally abused by Westminster crooks for years. Since 1923 and before. Ireland should never have been illegally Partition. It is an international disgrace. Leading to death and destruction of absolute bias and injustice. Just appalling Westminster unionist governance, The people of Ireland wanted Home rule /Independence. They got Partition and years of trouble, death and struggles. Still continuing yet. Foster should not be allowed anywhere in Scotland. She should be put in jail. A master criminal. Evil, greedy and corruptly,

    The ‘Orange Lodge should not be discriminated against’. What plantet is she on? A secret society, not equal or free. They have been blackballing people for years. Not equal, just or fair. Breakibng Laws with impunity. U.K./EU and International. Now illegally backing up May to break UK/EU International Law. The Westminster unionists are a disgrace. Bigoted, racist, misogynistic and a disgrace to the society. Illegally, killing and maiming people worldwide. Brexit is an absolute and total disgrace. The shared Defence costs are worth twice the contribution. Alone. Never mind the rest of the advantages of membership.

    The Tories cannot last much longer. Lying useless criminals out to ruin the economy, in order they can line their pockets with tax evaded money. Breaking the Law with impunity. Shorting the £pound for profits. Sanctioning, killing and maiming people. Destroy the world economy. They are an uillegal disgrace. The whole of Westminster governance is a disgrace.

    Polls never tell the whole story. Wrong every time. Used for criminal, illegal behaviour. Take them with a pinch of salt. Used to manipulate the result. The Bookies etc make a fortune. Public polls should be barred in the Purdah period. MSM are supposed to honour Purdah but they don’t. Especially in Scotland.

    Independence is coming soon it is just a matter if time. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

  166. Fred says:

    Don’t see the Scotsman being a viable project, despite the name it’s a local rag & the folk who buy it now I suspect wouldn’t take to a Salmondised replacement. There are half a dozen newsagents/garages in my bit, none of them sell the Scotsman, let it go!

  167. Effijy says:

    Looking at some stats regarding the NHS I would estimate that around 12% has now gone to the private sector and the figures are growing every year.

    I was surprised that the rate of privatisation accelerated under Tony Blair’s Red Tory Government.
    Their record is much worse than their Blue Tory Brothers.

    In NHS England of course they pay for prescriptions, there removed many items that could be obtained by prescriptions,
    they have awarded £Billions in contracts to companies like Branson’s Virgin Health Care, the Tories are now looking to stop treatments for the very old with terminal illness, and now they want to stop basic surgical procedures such as tonsillectomies, varicose vain removal, breast reductions, etc.

    The thin end of the wedge is now obese, Oh yes they won’t treat people until they lose weight, Oh or smoke, or take drugs.

    The next phase is they don’t treat you and your family unless you can show them cash, your house, your pension, or maybe you could sell a few organs as a trade off.

    There is nothing great in Britain and no Westminster party with an interest in anything other than the wealth of their rich donators and their own wallets.

    Be rid of these immoral and corrupt politicians before they let you die from a treatable illness. Vote for Independence.

  168. Robert Peffers says:

    @Col says: 1 July, 2018 at 1:53 am:
    ” … That’s why the snp should declare that because we are so close and should not give up if a second indy ref is lost that every election there on in will be a mandate for indy.”

    Sheesh! Where did you get the idea that this has not already always been the case, Col?

    Every SNP manifesto has, as its main tenet, that the SNP’s main policy always has been, always is, and always will be Independence for Scotland and for the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    Independence is the SNP’s Raison d’être and it always has been so.

    It is so at Community Councils, at Local Councils, at Holyrood, at Westminster and at the European Parliament.

    If you doubt that last one allow me to remind you of this: The first is two parts of the same EU Parliament debate in which it is clear from the first part that the chief EU negotiator knows perfectly the real relationships of the Kingdoms that comprise the United Kingdom – he knows it is a two partnership union of kingdoms and not a country.

    The second part of the first clip is a standing ovation for Alyn Smyth during that same EU debate. It shows the EU parliament also knows the true relationship between the two Kingdoms that comprise the United Kingdom.

    The second clip is how tirelessly Alyn Smyth is working for Scotland to remain as the legacy member state when the three country Kingdom of England exits the EU.

    You will not have seen either clip featured on any Westminster Establishment controlled media – but that doesn’t make it untrue.

    Every vote for the SNP at any level is a vote for independence. The fact that the SNP are, far and away, the most competent and honest government in the United Kingdom is secondary to the fact that everything they do is aimed at regaining Scotland’s independence.

  169. Robert Peffers says:

    @Fred says: 1 July, 2018 at 7:42 am:

    ” … folk who buy it now I suspect wouldn’t take to a Salmondised replacement. There are half a dozen newsagents/garages in my bit, none of them sell the Scotsman, let it go!”

    Fred, If you knew what you were talking about, which you don’t, you would know Alex Salmond has made it abundantly clear he would have no involvement whatsoever in either the running or the editorial side of things if the consortium were to succeed in taking over the Scotsman.

    His involvement was only in the financial arrangements and in the setting up of the consortium. I’d guess that, if the consortium were to succeed, Salmond might get to write the odd article.

    His involvement was in setting up the consortium and it ended right there. He has no wish to become any part of running a newspaper.

  170. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    All it would take for the Scots to remain EU citizens is the EU to accept the legal facts that the United Kingdom is a not an actual country but is exactly what its official title describes it as – A United Kingdom partnership of two equally sovereign kingdoms. The Treaty of Union only has two equally sovereign signatories. It does not have the signatures of four countries.

    I think that in the event of a yes vote, the eu would look for some such solution to ensure an indy scotland returns asap to eu membership.

    but that is the problem, until we actually vote yes, the eu’s position is and will remain, that an indy scotland will need to rejoin the eu, as a new member via A49.

    we cannot campaign during indyref2 saying that an indy scotland will stay in the eu, in direct contradition to the eu’s present position.

    anyone who does, will get blown out of the water when the unionists points to the eu’s pronouncements on the matter.

    as such, i’m not sure how useful a question this is to ask in a poll, it wont and can never be the question on the indyref2 ballot paper

  171. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Fred @ 7.42am

    The Scotsman is not beyond saving. It would take an almighty effort, but, the paper could well be saved – under new management. There are still some highly-talented journalists working there.

    It has now reached the stage, sadly, under the present management, whereby their cuts are actually harming the product. You mentioned the fact it is unavailable locally to you. This is common across Scotland, due in part to the way Menzies – the largest of the newspaper wholesaler works.

    Say they send-out six copies to a local shop, our of which sell regularly; so, after a few weeks, the six copies drop to four – every day, one is returned; the allocation drops to three, and so on, until you arrive at the situation whereby they cut that shop’s allocation totally.

    As part of their cost-cutting measures, The Scotsman’s management deliberately looked at this “wasteage” and ordered cut-backs. Print fewer – less waste, but, in the long run, a smaller circulation.

    The future for hard-copy newspapers, if there is a future, is in small,hard-working, but well-oaid and motivated production teams, assembling newsapers via copy generated by similarly hard-working, motivated and well-paid freelances.

    The National, for instance, is getting someway towards this model.

  172. McBoxheid says:

    Sorry if this has already been said. I’m in a lot of pain and can’t sit at my pc for long and read all the answers.

    It appears to me that people might just think that one of the countries has to be better off being run by someone else and that they can’t work out which. A trick question, like. By the time they get to the last choice, none of the above, they probably have already made up their minds.

    When you consider that 2% voted other, that is better than average.

    In a multiple choice question with 15 possible answers given, the average is 6.6% than one answer is correct. Although in this case, there are no correct answers, it is possible to answer that these countries would be better off being run by the example given in every case.

    If in a multichoice question, with the kids fighting because whatever, you’ve had a stressful day, whatever and some eejit asks you to fill out a political questionaire, would you be at you best to read and understand the questions being asked, or would you say anything to get it over with?

    Similarly, the first question has two things to consider, independence and EU membership. Considering that only 45.something% voted for independence in 2014, that is an inprovement by 5% if you, like me, consider independence the right choice.

    Part 2, the EU question, when asked in the EUREF 62% voted to stay in the EU in Scotland. Some yes voters want out the EU and some NO voters want to remain.

    The question is therefore much more difficult to answer.

    The second indy campaign has not officially started and we are seeing an increase by 4% of people who would vote for independence within the EU.

    However the polls don’t matter a fig, as the only one that matters hasn’t been asked yet and we don’t even know the question the will be asked. I just hope it goes our way.

    Which ever way it falls their will be disappointed people and I hope that folk remain calm and we don’t have any violence.

  173. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Robert Peffers at 8:24 am.

    You typed,
    “Independence is the SNP’s Raison d’être and it always has been so.

    It is so at Community Councils, at Local Councils, at Holyrood, at Westminster and at the European Parliament.”

    I’m afraid you’re 20% incorrect there. As a former member of a community council, I can confirm that they are non-political – SNP support for independence would not be an appropriate subject for discussion.

    I quote from,

    “Community Councils must represent all people in the area without prejudice. Therefore they should:

    Be non-party political and non-sectarian.
    Represent a full cross-section of the community and encourage the involvement of people regardless of gender, race, age, disability, nationality or sexual orientation.”

  174. Fred says:

    @ Socrates, Menzies is the problem with the National which is got round online. I still like a paper to be a paper so get mine kept. I have managed to get through life without ever buying or reading a Scotsman & chucked the Herald in 2014 after 30 years. Managing fine so far!

  175. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Ottomanboi: “I was 10 in 2013”

    I get it. There were only two other people available, so you dressed up as a conjoined ‘0’ and ‘1’ for the 2013 new year celebration, then turned around just as the bells stopped striking.

  176. Cactus says:

    Hey Ghillie, yeah, aye returned to HOME ok, twas an excellent night and morning, Yes, Westminster will be fracked first. Frackin’ will happen where Guy Fawkes failed.

    What is Farage like on LBC… always on for background chatter.

    Time to read The Stereotypes xx…

    iScotland soon.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon says: 1 July, 2018 at 11:06 am:

    Hi Robert Peffers at 8:24 am.
    You typed,

    … I’m afraid you’re 20% incorrect there. As a former member of a community council, I can confirm that they are non-political – SNP support for independence would not be an appropriate subject for discussion.”

    Aye! Brian, Community Councils are officially apolitical in the same manner as Westminster is officially a bipartite union of kingdoms.

    “I quote from,
    “Community Councils must represent all people in the area without prejudice. Therefore they should:
    Be non-party political and non-sectarian.
    Represent a full cross-section of the community and encourage the involvement of people regardless of gender, race, age, disability, nationality or sexual orientation.””

    Aye! Brian, that is indeed the official version – it just doesn’t follow that it is apolitical in practice.

  178. Cactus says:

    Good afternoon Robert P, wishing ye well bro 🙂

    It’s a sunny Sunday in Scotland.

    iScotland soon.

  179. Robert Peffers says:

    @schrodingers cat says: 1 July, 2018 at 8:40 am:

    ” … I think that in the event of a yes vote, the eu would look for some such solution to ensure an indy scotland returns asap to eu membership.”

    I sometimes watch the EU parliament live, and I watched the one I cited. The European guy, Jean-Clause Junker, tore Farage up as bum paper and while doing so he said something very, very significant.

    Junker said, sarcastically, after he had referred to, “The United Kingdom”, ” … or should I say, The dual kingdom of England & Wales”.

    This was not an error but a direct shot at Farage below the water line. Jean-Clause Junker made it very, very clear he knew that England & Wales are a duel Kingdom as Wales was annexed by The English Monarchy but Scotland joined the duel Kingdom of England & Wales as an equally sovereign partner.

    I assume he diplomatically omitted to mention Northern Ireland due to the on-going Irish Hard Border question.

    This guy knows the true status of the United Kingdom and that means he knows it has never been a unified country but only a disputed equally sovereign partnership of two kingdoms.

    I’m almost certain that the EU will accept Scotland as the legacy member state and that means The Kingdom/Country of Scotland will not be leaving the EU so will not need to apply to re-join.

    The, “Duel Kingdom of England & Wales”, will go out as The Kingdom of England and then we have Northern Ireland given the chance to re-unify with the Republic and thus they too will remain.

    There is a problem for Wales that only the Welsh themselves can solve, (and I sincerely hope the do so), but they must have a Plaid Cymru government in place and declare their wish to be out of the Kingdom of England.

    That is the essential difference between Scotland & Wales. Wales was annexed by England and Scotland joined by treaty and only a Welsh majority claiming independence can see Wales free again.

    Remember that both European and international law states that any readily identifiable people have the human right to self-determination. The people of Wales need to remember that and give Plaid Cymru a majority.

  180. Welsh Sion says:

    Don’t forget, Robert Peffers, we are essentially “out” of the Kingdom of England already – as of the 1967 Welsh Language Act. We were only an English Principality with the figurehead of a Prince of Wales (who came from anywhere but Wales) from 1301-1535. The “Act of Union” of 1535 annulled this Principality and subsequently Wales became co-terminus wityh England (until 1967). See also that reference in the Britannica “For Wales see England”.

    So we have a lot of work on our hands – maybe more so than Scots in achieving independence. But that said, we are considered a nation apart from England on a European, a British and a Welsh level. Further, there is provision under the (Westminster) Welsh Language Act 1993 (Schedule 2) to repeal both “Acts of Union” with England (1535 and 1542), although this has yet to be activated. Fortunately, the punitive anti-Welsh language legislation of those Acts have now been repealed – but not before time!

  181. Scottish Steve says:


    An interesting point but I doubt we’d get much money from the Scottish diaspora in England. My instincts tell me they are much friendlier towards the idea of the Union and that’s why there was a lot of bellyaching about not giving them a vote. If they had been given one, I think the No vote would have been much stronger.

  182. Bobp says:

    Been out shopping this afternoon.lots of empty shelves, could be this co2.problem. but i blame the SNP. Whit ur they gaunny dae aboot it.

  183. Fiona says:

    I am short of time these days, so this point may have been made upthread and I have missed it. It occurs to me that you may have had very different results had you asked if any of those nations would be better of being run by UK than by their neighbours.
    I would find it fascinating, too, to see those results, and results for a Q about whether they would be better off run by England.

  184. Doug McGregor says:

    We Scots have been exporting our bravest , brightest and best for centuries now (inc . yourself) is it any surprise that genetically we are half fearties now. The BBC and its accolytes in the MSM will forever create doubt and despondency amongst us , it’s their job.

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