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Wings Over Scotland


Anybody’s game

Posted on December 22, 2017 by

Now don’t get us wrong, readers. We’re sure that gormless Tory MP Ross Thomson is not, repeat NOT, permanently binned off his tulips on methamphetamine. He just has an unfortunate habit of photographing that way.

So when an alert reader sent us a link this morning to an extraordinary interview in which the Brexiteer claimed to have “killed indyref 2” in 2017, we didn’t automatically dismiss it as the drug-addled rantings of an ego-crazed madman.

Instead, we thought we’d check for signs of life.

Because we’ve been running a new Panelbase poll for the last week or so in order to give us some stuff to talk about over the holidays when there’s no news, and as luck would have it the results came in today.

We were quite bored of polls asking the same old abstract and essentially meaningless questions, so when it came to the constitution we thought we’d go with something a bit more real-world orientated – we asked respondents whether in a 2019 indyref they’d choose an independent Scotland in the EU, or staying in the UK and leaving Europe.

Turned out it was pretty close.

For the more detailed breakdown, click the pic below to enlarge.

Unsurprisingly, it’s still old people and those born in England who are holding Scotland back from pursuing the future that Scotland actually voted overwhelmingly for in the EU referendum. The young voted by a 2:1 margin for independence in Europe, but were almost perfectly symmetrically outweighed by the elderly, who therefore swing the vote through their greater numbers.

And while native Scots chose independence in this scenario by 52-48, a huge 72-28 against from the 9% of Scottish residents who were born south of the border tipped the scales back to 49-51.

21% of those who voted Leave last June would switch sides if it meant independence, but 32% of Remain voters would rather leave if the alternative to Brexit was Scotland taking charge of its own affairs. Almost half – and we actually do mean almost half, specifically 46% – of 2017 Labour voters would back independence to stay in Europe, along with more than a third of Lib Dems.

So what we’re saying is, in short, it’s all to play for in the coming months. If we were Ross Thomson, we wouldn’t go booking any funerals for the Yes movement just yet.

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    1. 22 12 17 15:56

      Anybody’s game | speymouth

    255 to “Anybody’s game”

    1. Macart says:

      The future IS independence. 🙂

    2. Billy Thomson says:

      48% of Scots still in favour of this union is just bewildering.

    3. One_Scot says:

      I think you’re being too kind. I would go for being constantly smashed oot his nut.

    4. Abulhaq says:

      Might I suggests we call the Unionist anti-independence brigade, the EUNUCHS? As plainly something vital is missing.

    5. Giving Goose says:

      I wonder if the question was asked differently thus –

      “The UK is currently scheduled to leave the EU in March of 2019. If a referendum on Scottish independence was held around this time, and if a Yes vote meant that Scotland would definitely stay in the EU when England left, which way do you think you would vote?”

      Would replacing UK with England make a difference? I believe that it possibly would, by several percentage points increase in the favour of Yes.

    6. Proud Cybernat says:

      Brilliant early Christmas pressie, Rev Stu.

      Fantastic.

      Game defo on. And we haven’t even started campaigning yet!!!!

    7. Marcia says:

      All within the usual margin of error so basically neck and neck despite the ‘No campaign’ actually campaigning all the time in the MSM.

    8. John H. says:

      It’s so close now I can almost smell it. Maybe we should look again at who is eligible to vote. Or am I being unfair?

    9. One_Scot says:

      To be honest whatever the in’s and out’s of it, a starting base of 49% for an Independence referendum is not too bad in anyones language.

    10. Foonurt says:

      Awe thae shitey, naw migrants, tellin awe thae ithurr migrants tae steiy oot.

      Thurr, huvin ah laugh. Redd thum.

    11. Robert Graham says:

      thats it lads power cuts tonight , that will teach the feckrs .

    12. Fergus Green says:

      and the YES campaign has not even started

    13. DaveyM says:

      Some of the subgroup differences are very interesting. I’m surprised by the slight pro-Brexit majority among my own age group (35-55), but it’s within the margin of error and could in reality be a slight majority for Yes-EU.

      I’d be interested in seeing any other crossbreaks on this question, if there are any! Can’t wait for the other findings 🙂

    14. Fergus Green says:

      If you throw in the promise of an EU referendum within a year of Independence, that would surely bring a few more to YES. Perhaps a promise to raise pensions so that they are more in line with our neighbours in Europe (but not south of the border) would help.

    15. Hugh Jones says:

      Just to say I’m English and fairly mature in years but am a passionate supporter of independence after nearly 30 years of living here.

    16. pitchfork says:

      46% of Labour voters backing Yes in this scenario is astonishing when you recall how many pro-indy voters have aleady left Labour for SNP.

    17. I think it would be difficult to decide who should be eligible to vote.

      As there would be people in all groups who support Scotland being an independent country again.

      Just as there are those who are opposed to independence.

    18. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Thanks Rev Stu – pretty close and the real effects of Brexit are still to bite – hard

      So all to play for in late 2018 or spring 2019.

      Weren’t the polls also predicting the Indy parties would lose in Catalonia?

      Like there it is only going to end one way – Independence followed by a Republic.

    19. Faltdubh says:

      A very creative way to ask the question.

      A majority of white settlers and OAPs will never budge – one has a cultural tie to the motherland which seems unbreakable; the others are deluded living in the past of Dunkirk, WW2 and blue passports, Empire etc. Just look at that twat Kevin Hague and his mask slipping regarding imperialism not being bad last week.

      Yes should focus on the under 50s and getting those numbers up from 52-48 of Scots to vote Yes. It’s very encouraging though that at the turn of the year, it is practically 50/50 ; and things will get worse.

      Whilst it has been a terrible year for the Tories and May, and she’s sort of ending the year on a bit of a high regarding Brexit – the media full of praise for her making a ‘deal’ at the start of the month with the EU on the divorce bill, Ireland and freedom of movement. We know that this wasn’t a deal at all, but a pre-deal and there will most definitely be trouble ahead.

      We can honestly win this though. We do need to sit tight for a few months though and see what does happen with Brexit ; but Yes and all of us will need to be willing to go asap and it could happen at any point from 2018 onwards (a second referendum).

      It’s certainly going to be an exciting few months and years ahead.

    20. Bob Mack says:

      To borrow an opposition term, “We have momentum” on our side.
      As the full implications of Brexit unfold and English Nationalism comes to the fore in all its unpleasant glory. I fully expect these figures to reverse significantly.
      Onward and upward people. We are winning.

    21. Stuart Colligan says:

      I for one, never caught this poll, am over 60 yrs young, and would’ve voted indy Scotland within EU.

    22. Proud Cybernat says:

      You get to vote in Scottish elections including any referendums if:

      a) you have an ‘S’ tax code or
      b) you tick the ‘Scottish Tax Payer’ box on HMRC Self Assessment forms.

      If you don’t have any of the above, you don;t get a vote here. Can it not be this simple?

    23. lewis wilde says:

      I too, Hugh Jones, am English and now come to live in Scotland. For me, it is seeming to be the future land of the free. Hail Caesar!

    24. Steve Bowers says:

      We need a wee pavement crusade, make your own stencil saying “the young people of Scotland are overwhelmingly in favour of Independence, talk to your grandchildren, don’t steal their future, Vote YES”
      Spray paint it (in blue) outside everypost office, bank, old folks home etc etc

    25. Toby Lerone says:

      Your survey gives similar results to the 2015 academic study
      (page 5 – Demographics)

      goo.gl/9D5isD

      i.e. Scots voted Yes in 2014 but Scotland voted No largely due to rUK voters

    26. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Surprised at the number of Labour voters for yes, always thought it was substantial but that’s a surprise.

      The question is how can folk who support independence vote for a Tory supporting rabidly anti Scottish anti independence group of clowns.

      I can’t imagine what damage Labour would inflict on Scotland if they got the chance.

    27. Bob Mack says:

      @Proud cybernat

      I like that idea, though I believe that many self employed pay directly to HMRC coffers in Westminster . Might be worth researching numbers though.,

    28. Andy-B says:

      Hugh Jones says:
      22 December, 2017 at 2:23 pm
      Just to say I’m English and fairly mature in years but am a passionate supporter of independence after nearly 30 years of living here.

      Welcome to the fold Hugh.

    29. Dan Huil says:

      Ticking along nicely. Just wait for the britnat brexit disaster to permeate through all of Scotland.

      @Fergus Green 2:22pm. I agree.

      @Hugh Jones 2:23pm. Good man.

    30. Bill McDermott says:

      Ross Thompson does look a bit loopy. I call him the nodding donkey. He always sat behind Ruth-the-mooth nodding away and ready to table thump in unison with the rest of the gang.

      Incidentally, I saw Jimmy Buchan (arch Tory Brexiteer) the other day giving evidence to a Commons Select Committee. I think he described himself as Chairman of some fishermen’s group. He seemed to be rowing back from his previous, outspoken tirade against the EU – not exactly wishing us to remain but more recognising that we must get a good deal for the fishermen. He of course has to straddle two or more horses. The processing sector is ultimately, extremely dependent on the EU and half the catching sector e.g. the prawners and creelers are 100% dependent on the EU for their markets.

    31. Brian Powell says:

      So they come here for the benefits then f’uck us up. It would be interesting to find out why they came here from the south. Are they richer, seems unlikely the poor would come then vote to stay with the UK?

    32. Brian Tweddle says:

      I’m “made in england” very old and support Scottish independence so please don’t tar us all with the same brush!

    33. Snode1965 says:

      Only 4% of Scots that voted Tory in 2017, would vote for independence?
      That’s yer hardcore Unionist demographic right there. Absolutely no point in chasing their vote in indieref 2.

    34. Ian Foulds says:

      Hugh Jones and Lewis Wilde.

      Welcome.

    35. Ken500 says:

      Turn Blue to wait in the queue.

      Losers. They haven’t got a clue,

    36. yesindyref2 says:

      The detail is pretty much what you’d expect which means the poll is consistent with other polls, just that support has risen from 44.7%, or 47% more recently, to 49%.

      It’s all to play for, as the parson said to the bishop.

    37. Lollysmum says:

      I’m also English but I wouldn’t dream of voting No in Indyref. Not a hope in hell of that ever happening 🙂

    38. Dr Jim says:

      Old people like me who are not going to see the future of a Yes vote and folk from over the border whose interests lie in what they think is the defence of their country which is not this one are allowed to vote

      It’s freaking insanity, I’ll be deid and the English folk think they own Scotland so why would they want Scotland to “leave them” even though they’re bloody here

      You might as well ask folk in Edinburgh to decide whether folk in Glasgow should have their lights on or off at certain times

      This voting lark is getting stupider and stupider and I’ve done this before nobody is forcing anybody to become Scottish, people can still be whomever they want to be, you don’t get your forehead stamped with Scottishness

      Isn’t it telling though that folk from overseas aren’t afraid of democracy, they actually like it whereas Unionists prefer dictatorship wrapped up in pretendy democracy so’s it doesn’t look like North Korea which it actually is

      We have the most incompetent English government of all time exploding on a daily basis from within and without bordering on armed conflict with somebody on an almost daily basis, every economist of note practically screaming at the UK to stop going mental and talking nonsense and lies to the people, we’ve got porn scandals groping MPs Nazi newspapers, homeless in England is at insanity levels, NHS England has cancelled operations, folk are actually starving in England and nothing is working properly and they’re still banging on about taking back control

      This has gone way beyond political, this is blind British Empire nutcasery and it really is time Scotland had a proper word with itself and stop being so damn nice and understanding to the rest of the UK and our local Yoonery right here, let’s face it they’re quite happy to drag us into hell “just because” so why are we being so patient with this bunch of absolute Arseholes

      C’mon Scotland take back control, they’ve had their turn and keep buggering it up at our expense both mentally and financially, even this weeks Labour leader Ricky Bobby Leonard admits small independent countries are doing better than us so why can’t Scotland, he said, if you didn’t see it check FMQs yesterday, oh how we laughed

    39. North chiel says:

      Agree with “ Fergus green @ 0222 pm “ yes “ money talks” . Promise the
      pensioners a better deal under Independece and include a “ compensation deal” to
      Waspi women. That should make them “ think twice” about a “ No vote”.

    40. Mark Fletcher says:

      I think it would be a game-changer if the best brains of the SNP could realistically promise a significant increase in the state pension in an independent Scotland or, at the least, to prioritise it.

    41. Tam the Bam. says:

      Brian Powell…2-53pm

      Statements like that are hardly likely to induce NO voting folk from south of the border to vote YES.

      Math Campbell who heads up ‘ENGLISH SCOTS FOR YES’ are doing a great job and deserve our help and encouragement.

    42. ScottieDog says:

      @Brian Powell
      It’s a good place to move to if you’re u live in the south. Cashing in on an over leveraged property and getting lots more for your money. Life is good for them so they say, why change it?

      I was in a bar the other day with a bunch of middle class colleagues – all Scots. The hatred and vitriol of the SNP and sturgeon was quite something. Their grasp of how money and the economy works was non-existent, yet all high earning, intelligent Scots. They are our problem.
      As soon as I try to explain their ignorance they just say they hate sturgeon anyway.

      I can well understand folk coming up here to live but worrying about walls going up along borders and separating them from their relatives (cue milliband the hypocritical wank) They are hard to convince especially when the BBC juggernaut swings into action.

      No, best to get the non-voters to actually vote. But how??!!

    43. Patrick Roden says:

      On my travels with friends, I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few retired English folks.

      They are enjoying their retirement and enjoying the beautiful Scottish countryside, along with all the benefits that come with living in Scotland.

      They do not want ANYTHING to ‘spoil’ this ideal retirement, so will never be persuaded to change their minds.

      This is totally unfair to the young people of Scotland who are trying to make a decent life out of the meagre pittance that is the block grant we are given (sometimes reluctantly) by the Westminster Governments, both Tory and Labour, while billions are creamed off the top to build expensive projects in the South of England, pay for vanity projects like Trident, pay for illegal wars, or pay for tax cuts for the already rich.

      We need to get tough, and stop worrying about ‘what the press will say’

      Although, as this poll seems to show we are slowly but surely heading towards the ‘tipping point’ a lot of leverage can be extracted from Westminster by the SNP, by pointing out that if we in Scotland simply follow the Brexit Referendums rules (they did not let EU citizens vote) And not allow anyone not born in Scotland a vote, we will win by a landslide.

      This is not racism or anti English, it’s Political necessity.

      With this kick arse approach we will at the very least, be able to make sure we do not get the media and political interference, that happened in the last referendum.

      If we get that, we will win without needing to gerrymander the vote.

    44. Joemcg says:

      Stirring the hornets nest but it’s pure insanity allowing English residents a vote on our independence. A historic enemy with a fraught past with us? Nope.

    45. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Long time since I had a swatch at what the bookies are saying. Have no idea how the odds have been shifting lately, if at all.

      Still, it’s heartening to see that we’re odds-on to win. 4/6 to be precise. For those of you who don’t flutter, it means you’d have to stake £6 to win £4 (i.e. you would get back a tenner in total). Still a profit to be made there but not a huge one, and that reflects bookies’ caution. And as we all know, they ain’t wrong very often.

      https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/next-independence-referendum-result

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      This is still with Brexit relatively painless, we are still in the EU so nothing much has changed yet. I think those numbers could get more emphatic as the screw turns.

    47. Clootie says:

      …and every year more NO’s die than YES supporters attain voting age.
      Tick Tock!

    48. MikeyW says:

      Brexit really needs to be hard and nasty to tip the balance. Hold on to your hats, tt’s going to a bumpy ride.

    49. Helena Brown says:

      As an OAP, one with no children no grandchildren, I cannot understand those terrified elderly people. Itnus as if they have become in their dotage blind to the world around them.
      Here is a thought for them, as the result of Brexit, do they think they will be receiving the, ahem, generous pension they are getting now from The UK?
      I have said since That Referendum, The Brexit one, that the only thing which will change some people’s minds will be the pain brought on by leaving the EU and I still think that. There are people who will not believe it until they see the results

    50. colin alexander says:

      Just imagine what the YES figure might have been if the SNP had not betrayed the manifesto pledge:

      “We will undertake new work, starting this summer (2016), to persuade a clear majority of the Scottish people that independence is the best future for our country”.

    51. Grant says:

      In 2014 I calculated the mortality rate of No / Yes voters to be 4:1, based on the age distributions. It might be that people become more No as they age, or it may be just a matter of time. Morbid but definitely relevant.

    52. Roddy Macdonald says:

      I haven’t a clue what the proportion of ABC1s to C2DEs is in the Scots population, but the proportion in the poll strikes me as rather high.

    53. Paul Docherty says:

      I would like to Vote in the next referendum. I live in England and I was told I could not vote it was only for Scots living in Scotland.
      I would dearly like to see Scotland stand on its own two feet. I have worked in the Oil industry for over 45 years and cannot understand why every oil rich nation is benefiting from the oil income except my own country Scotland.
      Also my family Mum and Dad migrated all the way to Australia in 64 to get work. When I was in my teens as such I nearly ended up in Vietnam fighting for Uncle Sam. Basically my childhood friends ended up around the world in migrant situations because of the poor management of Scotland’s resources.
      How can I register to Vote in the Scottish Referendum.
      I was born in Scotland.

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      People should ask themselves which is more likely to convert a previous NO voter to a YES voter in Indy Ref 1. Is it:

      1).You’re a scumbag, you’re old and decrepit, you’re English, a coward, stupid beyond all recognition, selfish to the core, a total waste of space and I despise you

      or is it

      2). I can understand your worries about the economy of Scotland, our ability to be Independent and go our own way, the concern about the EU whether for it or against it, and concerns that your pension might not be paid. I think, well, know, they’re all unfounded, but clearly we didn’t make the case last time and must do better this time.

      “Cause if we got it wrong we’ll get it right next time.”

    55. Monica Worley says:

      You didn’t by chance ask the same question but instead of staying the EU, staying in EFTA? You think it would improve the yes vote or hurt it?

    56. FTDMail says:

      Nothing worse than a treacherous, self hating Scot with zip between the ears. What clowns voted this gurning tube in?

    57. One_Scot says:

      Lol, absolute knob does not even come close.

    58. Weechid says:

      Brian Powell says:

      22 December, 2017 at 2:53 pm

      “So they come here for the benefits then f’uck us up. It would be interesting to find out why they came here from the south. Are they richer, seems unlikely the poor would come then vote to stay with the UK?”

      The one’s I’ve met on the doorstep are usually well off, in big houses bought much cheaper here than they could buy back home. A couple of big fancy cars in the drive. They know how much the SNP do to mitigate Tory austerity but they will still vote No. I don’t understand them at all.

    59. Roland Smith says:

      What would be interesting(and if needs more just ask) would be a poll that asked the same question but substituted the Norway option for full EU membership. And/or staying in the Single Market and Customs Union as another option.
      I suspect you would get a different answer more favourable to Yes.

    60. Robert Graham says:

      Calm down everybody – its been decided by ( me ) I am counting the votes , I just need a fork lift , one big incinerator and i guarantee a result before midnight , not exactly sure what night but it will be before midnight . oh and big scales you know the same ones labour used they must still be serviceable .

      And the result is YES 50.99 % – NO 49.01 my that was close , Right chaps all union flags in a bin pronto .

      Well that would be as believable as probably some previous elections have been with unionists doing the counting.

    61. heedtracker says:

      What do you think was the most significant moment of 2017?

      It would have to be the snap General Election… indy killer?

      but
      and 2) It ensured that we had the right person as Prime Minister to take our country through this unprecedented and historic time as we exit the EU.”

      Holy feck that’s classic tory/beeb gimp network stuff alright. Mrs May’s only still in the job because they’ve got no one else on planet toryboy, BJ, Mogg, Gove. Certainly changed the DUP’s fortunes and yet still Labour can’t get ahead of the biggest tory catastrofuck ever.

      If we had even a slightly less corrupt BBC…

      Beeb gimp network actually reporting Mrs May did NOT know ANYTHING about the latest creepy tory perv that just got sacked, so she may well be away tonight anyway.

      Happy toryboymnas.

    62. Ian McCubbin says:

      Have always worried about English setteld in Scotland and some of whom are active in SNP branches.
      Better than MI5 agents am sure.

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings, they’re all coming out now. By proportion of the actual referendum result, 45% of the “counters” would be YES voters, and 55% NO voters, not taking into account the observers from all parties plus Wings itself. And then there’s the SNP controlled councils such as mine was at the time, which still returned a NO vote.

      I think the Kremlin is ‘aving an Xmas laff. Merry Christmas!

    64. twathater says:

      Doc Jim 3.12pm agree with you wholeheartedly, I have great respect for the likes of lollysmum and Math Campbell they are true forward thinking democrats , there is nothing to stop any pro independenistas from anywhere supporting an indy Scotland , what really p’s me off is people coming here from anywhere and siding with our own deluded cringers to shackle Scotland to this shower of psychopaths just because their frightened of being separated from their great motherland , they don’t want to be considered as furriners in the empire .

      As has been shown and verified in indy 1, Scots born voted overwhelmingly for independence , whereas incoming settlers voted overwhelmingly against independence , according to figures the same thing will happen again

      If we want our children , grandchildren and heirs to be released from this ginormous clusterfcuk brought on by waste monster exceptionalism, where our government isn’t even consulted or listened to , or our citizens are denigrated and disparaged on a daily basis , where we are considered as sweaty socks , subsidy junkies , thieves and a lot more disgusting names , we will have to make unpopular decisions to protect our and their future .

      I care what the likes of mollysmum and Math Campbell think about us Scots and I am immensely proud that they want to be part of an indy Scotland ,but I don’t give a flying fuck about people who have come here to escape from lunatic waste monster stupidity and to benefit from a caring compassionate competent SG , yet are intent on keeping the status quo

      Let’s not kid ourselves we are in a fight for Scotland’s very existence , if we lose this fight we will be subsumed into greater engerlund these tory barstewards of all colours will decimate our parliament , we will become English serfs which will not bother our incoming colonial settlers , we will be second class citizens in our own country

      So to sum up I really don’t care if I offend rich colonisers I want independence and if that means excluding certain sectors from voting , tough , the end justifies the means

    65. Bobp says:

      Billy thompson. 2.09pm. Think there’s a lot of yer’s in that percentage billy. And while it continues it lessens more and more Scotland’s chances of ever achieving independence. And thats a fact.

    66. heraldnomore says:

      I had the misfortune of watching the man in his other job last weekend, proving beyond doubt that we should never trust a tory, even if he has a wee fleg in his hand.

    67. David says:

      Time to make supporting a football club, any club, compulsory!

      The 388 football supporters polled voted for Indy 203-185.
      The 415 non-football-supporters voted against Indy 192-223.

    68. Bobp says:

      John h 2.17.pm.no you are not being unfair John,just realistic.if we don’t address the problem of who’s eligible to vote,then sadly we will be shafted once again.

    69. Stoker says:

      yesindyref2 on 22 December, 2017 at 4:10 pm.

      Sick and tired of people like you preaching that same bullshit all the time. One size does not fit all and if you went into the sorts of places i come from and frequent, talking like No2, you’re more than likely to get your scrotum booted.

      Please stop insulting the intelligence of most folk who understand what card to play and when to play it, it also stinks of intellectual snobbery and superiority. If you were so fricken hot at converting people we’d be independent by now.

      Save your sanctimonious claptrap for the BritNat btl operators of those BUM rags you love to help keep afloat. Those very same BritNats you believe are ordinary citizens of Scotland all ripe for the converting of.

      Don’t waste your time and effort responding to me; (a): I’m not interested and (b): I’ll not see it. Have a good evening all.

    70. Bobp says:

      Hugh Jones and Lewis Wilde, you are the type of English people that Scotland wants and needs, not the other type

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      “and if that means excluding certain sectors from voting , tough

      It’s the Scottish Government will decide the mandate for Indy Ref 2, it’s going to be incredibly similar to the last one, the chances of it excluding “English settlers” are 0.00000000000000000%, so what on earth is the point in actually antagonising potential YES voters by talking about excluding them from voting, when the chances of that actually happening are precisely zero?

      It’s a form of self-indulgent mental masturbation which doesn’t help in the slightest achieve what we should all be for – which is a YES vote in Indy Ref 2.

      The electorate is what it is, persuade it don’t piss it off.

    72. Derick fae Yell says:

      Monica Worley and Roland Smith

      Yes the EFTA option would increase the Yes vote. This very website has noted that a solid 11% of voters want independence but not EU membership. Before the EU’s disgraceful response to the repression in Catalonia, reiterated once again yesterday and today by the Commission spokesman and the rent a gobshite Vershofstadt. If social media is anything to go by that 11% is higher new

      Offer voters an option – the Single Market via EFTA EEA, just like Norway and Iceland, which offers pretty much all the benefits of the EU, without the downsides, and we have a 65% Yes vote there for the taking.

    73. yesindyref2 says:

      @Stoker
      That’s nice, dear.

    74. Dan Huil says:

      @Derick fae Yell 5:01pm

      Agreed. That has to be the way to go.

    75. Graeme says:

      It is utterly idiotic that English people get a vote on Scottish independence and I mean no disrespect to English people when I say that.

      Uniquely among all other nationalities the English have a vested interest in Scotland remaining in the union that is not necessarily in the best interests of Scotland or the Scottish people, no other nationality has that interest.

      I know there are some English people who support Scottish independence but the vast majority don’t not because they believe Scotlands interests would be better served in the union but because they believe Englands interests would be better served with Scotland in the union

      For those English people who support independence such as English for Indy if they truly support independence then there’s no reason why they should object to giving up their vote if it gave independence a better chance

      I accept my view may not be popular here but it is my view and I mean no offence to anyone, it would be perfectly natural for English people to vote in the best interests of their own country, I know I would in a similar situation

    76. yesindyref2 says:

      @Derick fae Yell @Dan Huil
      I think the EU should be partly unbundled from Indy Ref 2, for instance it can be said that staying in or rejoining in the EU is a possibility of a YES vote, whereas it isn’t with a NO vote, but that EFTA and even no membership will be considered and the choice put to the electorate fairly quickly after the YES vote (months I think). That wouldn’t stop formal talks beginning, and by Scotland’s EU / EFTA Ref, more would be known for sure about the terms of EU membership for Scotland – similarly for EFTA / EEA.

    77. Returnofthemac says:

      What is wrong with the elderly in this country. I am 67 is this old? (rhetorical)
      Having your country run by a porn watching barstewrd is this OK? Yet these No voters seem happy to continue to vote for them. I am baffled. Tories and Scottish tories are happy to rip the piss out of Scotland at every opportunity. Every news bulletin puts the country down from NHS, Education, Bridge, endlessly downbeat.

    78. Lenny Hartley says:

      I am stunned 54% of people born outside the UK who would vote to stay in the UK and leave the EU . Surely something wrong!!

    79. Janet Johnstone says:

      I’m English, I’ve lived in Scotland for over 40 years, worked and paid my taxes here and brought up my children here. Reading some of the comments on this thread I feel as if I’ve been slapped across the face, some of you are no better than the Daily Mail readers you slag off, take a good look at yourselves, you’re not going to change any minds with an attitude like that. Incidentally I’m a strong independence supporter and a member of the SNP

    80. Bob Mack says:

      Precisely why do you think many English domiciled in Scotland ?. It is a complex conundrum, but my two elderly aunts moved here several years ago because they got a fortune for their house and could buy cheaper in Scotland ,in a nice locale in Perth shire.

      The problem is though, when they came they brought England with them in terms of outlook and philosophy. They stay here but consider it to be a rural part of England. They constantly chide the SNP, but accept everything the SNP has delivered to the people in terms of freebies.

      They do not perceive Scotland as a fellow country but rather a region which has been consolidated into the (UK) or rather England through time and custom and practise.

      Their allegiance is to Westminster not Holyrood ,and no amount of persuasion can change that fact. I suppose it is difficult to deny your own heritage to surplant it with another, but that is what is required for Scotland to have its liberty .

      Following our last debate they told me they would return South if Scotland voted for indy. Better they went South BEFORE the vote I told them to little effect.

      I suppose ultimately it would be like us living on Shetland and they held an indy vote to be free of Scotland. How would you vote in those circumstances?

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s true, I often photograph as if binned off my tulips, as I’m not particularly photogenic. 😉

      Why would two out of three English born Scottish residents vote to maintain the Yoonion, post-Brexit? I’d say it has a lot to do with identity insecurity and misplaced trust in Westminster. Many will also maintain a sense of psychological connectedness that is based in their hometowns. British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism, after all.

      By any metric, Scotland is not Better Together, lacking effective political agency within an institutional paradigm of neo-liberal, English cultural exceptionalism.

      Endogeneity: An inconvenient truth (a gentle introduction), by John Antonakis
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCiIfjm8qjw

    82. One_Scot says:

      Very good and thoughtful post Graeme.

    83. t42 says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      “I am stunned 54% of people born outside the UK who would vote to stay in the UK and leave the EU”

      Ask Poles living in Scotland what they think of the EUs current attack on Poland.
      Ask a human being what they think of the EUs support for Spains violent oppression against Catalonia.

    84. Rock says:

      “Unsurprisingly, it’s still old people and those born in England who are holding Scotland back from pursuing the future that Scotland actually voted overwhelmingly for in the EU referendum.”

      Rock (4th March 2016 – “The resource collective”):

      “To get independence in the first place, we have to ignore the diehard unionists and instead concentrate on the ‘soft’ No’s who might more readily be won over.

      If we insist on “embracing” Tories, the British Nationalist elderly, the selfish middle class and the unionist English, we are too stupid to be independent.”

      Add to that the thugs.

    85. Susan Love says:

      I was asked to do this poll & I’m one of the over 55s who voted Yes for Independance in Europe

    86. Rock says:

      Brian Powell,

      “So they come here for the benefits then f’uck us up. It would be interesting to find out why they came here from the south. Are they richer, seems unlikely the poor would come then vote to stay with the UK?”

      Robert Peffers (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”):

      “The fact is that a little common sense will show that the immigrants mainly come to find work. Elderly English cadgers excepted, these who sell up expensive city homes for cheaper, or better, Scottish accommodation, free bus passes and the benefits of such as free prescriptions, care at home and cheaper Council Tax. These are often the ones most prone to call scots subsidy junkies.”

      Rock (18th February 2017 – “Here comes a surprise”):

      “That is a very racist anti English comment in my view.

      I only call for such people not to be given a vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England.

      Apart from that, as far as I am concerned, there is no difference between these elderly No voters and our own British Nationalist elderly No voters.”

    87. PictAtRandom says:

      “So they come here for the benefits then f’uck us up…”

      Sounds like a line from an early Philip Larkin poem.

      Misery deepens like a continental shelf. Let’s get out while we can.

    88. galamcennalath says:

      1) People from elsewhere are almost as numerous as English. They would vote 46:54 Y:N. who are this group? Not EU citizens, surely? Whoever they are we need to identify and work on them!

      2) Like every other poll this one highlights that Scotland’s problem is its older voters. As The Rev says …

      “The young voted by a 2:1 margin for independence in Europe, but were almost perfectly symmetrically outweighed by the elderly, who therefore swing the vote through their greater numbers.”

      … that, IMO, is the biggest issue of all. I am convinced if plans were made to bring iScotland’s state pension up to the EU average within a few years, then target to be among the best in say 10-15 years. It seem my peers need to be bought. Though, eradicating poverty and building a more equal Scotland should be our aim, and this can be part of the overall plan.

      3) 19% of 2014 YES voters would opt for a Brexit UK. I reckon that must change when the economic reality of Brexit, especially for Scotland, begins to become more widely know and accepted.

    89. shiregirl says:

      This post made me laugh so much, I can’t tell you.

      Thank you Rev.

      And a good Christmas to all readers and lurkers.

      P.S. He does looked wired, eh?

    90. Mike d says:

      Graeme 5.21pm.sensible post Graeme.

    91. heedtracker says:

      I only call for such people not to be given a vote in a referendum on Scottish independence from England.”

      Most if not all people that move to a different country and make it, are deeply conservative. Its just a fact of life. Why change things if it works for me, kind of mindset.

      I can mind BBC Scotland going vox pop in Govan Hill of all places, 2014, with people from all over the world and they all told the nice BBC man, there is mo way they would vote YES because the Scots would only give jobs to other Scots, if…

      Nice BBC Scotland man always nodded his nice BBC head very hard too.

      Brexit’s going to be a new era for a lot of people who moved to Scotland from all kinds of places abroad, who were adamant NO’s, 2014.

    92. Craig P says:

      David says:

      22 December, 2017 at 4:47 pm

      Time to make supporting a football club, any club, compulsory!

      The 388 football supporters polled voted for Indy 203-185.
      The 415 non-football-supporters voted against Indy 192-223.

      That’s just another way of saying working class men support indy and posh auld ladies dinnae…

    93. Cactus says:

      Scotland should be an independent country 🙂

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why the BBC in Scotland, apart from normalising British nationalism and Scotland’s subsequent lack of effective political agency?

      Postcolonial Theory and Cross-culturalism: Collaborative ‘Signposts’ of Discursive Practices

      Signposting for Discursive Practices

      Discursive practices derive from the constructs of language embodied in discourse. According to Gee, (1990, p. xv), discourse is ‘a combination of ‘saying-doing-thinking-feeling-valuing’ something. This contention
      underlies the statement that language is not the expression of unique individuality. Rather, it constructs a member’s subjectivity in ways that are
      socially specific. Derrida (1976) advocates that language is always open to challenge and redefinition with shifts in discursive context. de Saussure
      (1974) classifies language as a heterogeneous mass of speech facts that can only exist by virtue of a contract signed by the members of a community.
      Barthes (1986) advocates that if language is socially determined, then acts of representation are sociocultural. This leads to the conclusion that the social
      constructs put in place within a society determine the way a language is spoken and the purpose it serves in communication. Foucault (1977) refers to communication as a systematically organised discourse of the community.

      https://ojs.unisa.edu.au/index.php/EDEQ/article/viewFile/579/449

    95. Moonlight says:

      Perhaps, according to this thread, my wife should be excluded from voting.
      Born in the dominion of Canada, moved to England, lived and worked in France for more than 20yrs and drawing a derisory pension. Now resident with me in Scotland.
      Her grandchildren are denied a British passport (Blue or any other shade) because she was stupid enough to give birth to her son in the Netherlands.
      It gets too complicated as many individuals have a different back story. I do favour the Scottish tax number suggestion, but she doesn’t have one of them either.

      For all that a determined YES voter. Perhaps Scotland would be more generous to these little children.

    96. TheWasp says:

      Be careful people, notsensible Dave has been calling me a racist on the millionaire thread for suggesting scrounging white settlers stopped us achieving independence. He just can’t get his head round the fact that these people denied the will of the Scots born and new Scots people to run our own affairs, and I don’t like them for it, so he is alleging the idea that I am all for a Scottish master race. He is a fud.

    97. Dan Huil says:

      It seems britnat boris is trying to up his bid for being England’s next PM by having verbal “handbags” with his Russian counterpart. Pathetic, and not a little dangerous. I suppose a “good old” britnat war might take English minds off the brexit mess – not Scottish ones though.

    98. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Most if not all people that move to a different country and make it, are deeply conservative. Its just a fact of life. Why change things if it works for me, kind of mindset.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, I have no problem with your “fact of life”.

      But in my humble opinion, it is extremely stupid to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on the independence of Scotland from England.

      After 310 years of being a colony of England.

    99. Scottish Steve says:

      @Brian Powell

      Most probably move up here for work or to start over. Or to be with family. Others come here because they see Scotland as a nice place to retire. A quaint little region of Britain known for haggis and kilts. They may like it, but they want us to remember our place – which is firmly under the control of the Motherland.

      Don’t get me wrong. Plenty of English folk vote Yes. But there is an unmistakable arrogance and superiority complex among some of them. And quite frankly, English people who move up here and enjoy all the benefits of leaving here but vote No anyway make me resentful. Hey, they live here, they can vote however they please. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.

    100. Sinky says:

      Channel Four news reporter just described the winners of Catalonia’s elections as a rag tag of independence parties.

    101. Ricey says:

      Well Done Dr Jim. You’ve put into words my frustration with the current bunch of cowboys/aresholes/rapacious/xenophobic/chancers that my words could not. We need to constantly shine the spotlight on these people. We need to stop being considerate and polite to the aggressive unionists and tell them exactly WTF is going on. They’re not just destroying Scotia, they’re fck’n it up for everyone on these islands.

      “We have the most incompetent English government of all time exploding on a daily basis from within and without bordering on armed conflict with somebody on an almost daily basis, every economist of note practically screaming at the UK to stop going mental and talking nonsense and lies to the people, we’ve got porn scandals groping MPs Nazi newspapers, homeless in England is at insanity levels, NHS England has cancelled operations, folk are actually starving in England and nothing is working properly and they’re still banging on about taking back control

      This has gone way beyond political, this is blind British Empire nutcasery and it really is time Scotland had a proper word with itself and stop being so damn nice and understanding to the rest of the UK and our local Yoonery right here, let’s face it they’re quite happy to drag us into hell “just because” so why are we being so patient with this bunch of absolute Arseholes

      C’mon Scotland take back control, they’ve had their turn and keep buggering it up at our expense both mentally and financially, even this weeks Labour leader Ricky Bobby Leonard admits small independent countries are doing better than us so why can’t Scotland, he said, if you didn’t see it check FMQs yesterday, oh how we laughed”

    102. Scottish Steve says:

      Correction: leaving should be living*

    103. Hamish100 says:

      BBC REPORTING SCOTLAND

      Anything happened in Iberia that might have a resonance in Escocia?

      Nope lets do a story on Rangers * 2, Nick Nairn, some Christmas things, 1 serious news story — that’s it folks … and the weather

      Don’t mention independence… shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    104. Cadogan Enright says:

      BBC NÍ struggling with Catalan result – entertaining

      And some of their experts on Russia are priceless

      Trouble is, most of their listeners suck it all in

    105. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Most if not all people that move to a different country and make it, are deeply conservative. Its just a fact of life. Why change things if it works for me, kind of mindset.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, I have no problem with your “fact of life”.

      But in my humble opinion, it is extremely stupid to give English settlers the right to vote in a referendum on the independence of Scotland from England.

    106. Dan Huil says:

      From The Irish Times:

      “The DUP has accused the Taoiseach of using unhelpful and inflammatory language after he said the Government want to see “real and meaningful involvement” in Northern Ireland if efforts to restore Stormont fail.

      Speaking on Thursday, Mr Varadkar said in the absence of devolved government in the North, he would not support direct rule from London but does not view Ireland’s potential role as a form of “joint rule”.

      He also acknowledged legislative authority lies with Westminster.

      “Essentially the Good Friday Agreement provides for matters that are not devolved to be dealt with by the British-Irish governmental conference and that’s what we will seek,” he said.

      “We won’t be supporting direct rule. We didn’t support direct rule.

      “So the alternative to the assembly and the executive being up and running is either a) an election, or b) convening the British-Irish governmental conference, and that’s what we’ll seek, and I should point out that is what the Good Friday Agreement says.

      “So all we’d be seeking is the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement which, as you know, is an international agreement between two governments endorsed by referendum in both parts of the island.”

      On Friday morning DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson said the Irish government has “no mandate to govern Northern Ireland”.

      He told BBC Radio Ulster: “No one in Northern Ireland elected them. It would be a fundamental breach of all of the agreements we have reached – the principle of consent, the three stranded approach which says that matters internal to Northern Ireland are a matter for the UK government and the Northern Ireland politicial parties alone.”

      Mr Donaldson was asked if he viewed it as the Irish government trying to put pressure on parties to resolve the Stormont impasse.

      He said: “We are ready to be around the table today but unfortunately Sinn Féin has said that they are not prepared to talk.

      “So, if they are not prepared to talk, never mind go into government, that makes it very difficult and I think there will be many unionists listening to this, and observing what the Taoiseach is saying and asking the question, ‘should the Taoiseach not be putting pressure on Sinn Féin?’.

      “Right now it seems by the language he is using, the inflammatory language he is using, he’s trying to put pressure on unionists, when we are saying we are prepared to go into government today. No pre-conditions, no red lines, let’s get the Executive up and running.

      “Shouldn’t it be Sinn Féin? Why are Fine Gael afraid to put pressure on Sinn Féin? Why is it they have to use inflammatory language directed toward unionists? I think many people in Northern Ireland will be asking that question.”

      On how bad the relationship between the DUP and the Irish government is, Mr Donaldson said both Mr Varadkar and Tánaiste Simon Coveney should stop using what he described as “inflammatory language”.

      “If you are going to repair relationships, the first thing you stop doing is using this type of inflammatory language,” he said.

      “The Taoiseach knows it’s unhelpful and if he and Simon Coveney are serious about a rapprochement with the DUP then I say stop using this inflammatory language, sit down and talks to us by all means. Let’s sit down and see how we can move forward but I have to say this type of language is not helpful at all.”

      TUV leader Jim Allister said: “The aggressive assertion by Leo Varadkar that he will require “real and meaningful” input into the affairs of Northern Ireland, if Stormont is not returned, demonstrates the mindset of the constitutional claim of old Articles 2 and 3 of the Republic’s Constitution lives on in Dublin.

      “The British Irish Agreement of 1999 provides for no such Dublin role, but rather for the putting forward of ‘views and proposals’ to the sovereign UK Government. So in demanding a ‘real and meaningful role’ Varadkar is playing the part of a political chancer.

      “No doubt he is encouraged by the fact that this fraudulent threat worked in 2007 when the DUP under Ian Paisley clutched at the fake figleaf of the supposed threat of ‘joint authority’ to justify their somersault into government with IRA/Sinn Fein. Joint Authority was a lie then and it is a lie now.

      “The con perfected in 2007 is now coming back to haunt those who peddled it. This time unionism needs to stand firm.”

      Sinn Féin MLA Conor Murphy commented on the issue, saying the DUP and the British government need to focus on the creation of a new Executive.

      “There will be no return to the status quo,” Mr Murphy said. “Sinn Féin is determined to see the restoration of sustainable power-sharing institutions on the basis of equality, rights and respect.”

      “The majority of MLAs want to see marriage equality, language rights and legacy inquests delivered.

      “What the political process requires is the British government and the DUP to focus on the creation of a new Executive and end the denial of rights and equality.

      “Unionism’s faux outrage at the Taoiseach’s comments which are simply in line with the Good Friday Agreement is about deflecting attention from its denial of rights.

      “Under the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement an intergovernmental conference involving the Irish and British governments should be called in the absence of political institutions.”

      [Things heating up in the north of Ireland. The jelly-like foundations of the so-called united kingdom wibble-wobble some more]

    107. Rock says:

      Sorry for the duplicated comment.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Crudely put, our political emotion is essentially an expression of self-interest and is shaped by the interaction of our personal values with social norms and practices. We all see the world differently, especially those who avoid the corporate media, but we are all motivated in ways that can be studied scientifically and modeled mathematically. This is useful as it helps establish how to influence behaviour.

      On the nature of motivational orientations: implications of assessed goals and gender differences for motivational goal theory.

      Abstract

      In a historical revision of the achievement goal construct, Elliot (2005) recognized that there is little consensus on whether the term “goal” in “achievement goal orientations” (GO) is best represented as an “aim”, as an overarching orientation encompassing several “aims”, or as a combination of aims and other processes -self-regulation, etc.-. Elliot pointed also that goal theory research provides evidence for different models of GO. As there were no consensus on these issues, we decided to get evidence about the nature and structure of GO, about the role of gender differences in the configuration of such structure, and about relations between GO, expectancies, volitional processes and achievement.

      A total of 382 university students from different faculties of two public universities of Madrid (Spain) that voluntarily accepted to fill in a questionnaire that assessed different goals, expectancies and self-regulatory processes participated in the study. Scales reliability, confirmatory factor analyses, multiple-group analyses, and correlation and regression analyses were carried out. Results support the trichotomous model of GO, the consideration of GO as a combination of aims and other psychological processes, showed some gender differences and favour the adoption of a multiple goal perspective for explaining students’ motivation.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480692

    109. heedtracker says:

      Sinky says:
      22 December, 2017 at 7:17 pm
      Channel Four news reporter just described the winners of Catalonia’s elections as a rag tag of independence parties.

      Fun watch, C4 liggers are clearly not for Catalan but it would be great to see if the Catalans interviewed are fully aware of just how hard exact same C4 liggers monstered Scotland 2014 and now act like Scotland simply no longers exist, in their UK.

    110. Robert Graham says:

      Oh dear a lot of folk getting hot tempered regarding who can be allowed a vote in Indy ref 2 ,
      Or put another way who qualifies in order to vote .

      We have a Unique situation that exists between Scotland and England both different in outlook even to a certain extent history . Certainly education and legal systems , We are separate countries welded together in this unequal Union.

      Most countries don’t allow residents to take part in elections, there are a few exceptions governed by length of residency, New Zealand being one, this is where we have a Conundrum and a big one, While technically being imigrents , That’s if we believe we are separate nations,English people moving north or anywhere else in Britain are not and never have been referred to as immigrants, the same goes for Scots Irish Welsh, you can’t be called an immigrant while just moving around .Britain .

      Therefore I can’t see it being legally possible to disqualify anyone who was born in the British isles from taking part in our referendum, and by rights the whole of the British isles should be taking part, The only proviso in our case if it’s allowed being length of residence and Scottish Tax Code . If it’s only Scottish residents that qualify to vote .

      There is method in my madness , English people have been subjected to the same propaganda as us but in reverse , most think we are a drain on their finances , a heavy moaning burden , well that’s what’s been promoted for as long as I can remember .

      This might be the push needed for some scots when faced with the reality of we are not really wanted, not wanted in their parliament , not wanted to contribute to their brexit negotiations , we will never fit in , we don’t speak like them ,think like them , because we in the end are not English .

    111. Thepnr says:

      Well done Rev on getting a wee poll run and letting us share the results over the festive period. Should make for a lot of interesting reading and discussion.

      That’ll be enough to piss the trolls off, money well spent!

    112. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      22 December, 2017 at 7:21 pm
      Sorry for the duplicated comment

      But that’s your thing Rock:D

      You’re the Duplicate Comment King, of The UKOK zone.

    113. Ruby says:

      ‘binned off his tulips’

      Is this a well know expression or is it one the Rev has made up especially for Ross Thomson?

      I have never heard this expression before but I knew exactly what it meant.
      It’s a great expression!

      I will forever think of Ross Thomson as Tulip Boy!

    114. alexicon says:

      Good news in this opinion poll Rev. The momentum is with YES all the way.
      Just a wee bit curious. Has anyone ever asked in an opinion poll how the electorate would vote in another Scottish Indy ref. if their was a promise, possibly by the SNP, of a multi question referendum on membership of the EU after Independence?

    115. Scottish Steve says:

      @Robert Graham

      If we cant legally disqualify English residents from voting then we must be resigned to forever be stuck in the Union. The majority of the English up here are against independence and it will remain that way. No amount of economic or political arguments will convince them. It’s all emotional for them. It’s all about maintaining Great Britain.

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m living proof that people’s behaviour can be change through supported learning. It takes repeated practice though.

      After watching this, your brain will not be the same | Lara Boyd | TEDxVancouver
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNHBMFCzznE

    117. SquirrelTower says:

      Hey guys with this talk you are scaring me. I’ve always loved the fact I could say the only anti-English stuff I heard in 20 plus years living and working here was from an Elderly No voter when I was manning a ‘Yes’ stall. I get the frustration with English folks voting No. I really do, but that’s been the case since 2014. The anti-immigrant stuff is the playbook of the narrow minded Daily Mail, the “you have to be born here to get to vote”.

      Scotland is my home and I love it, my kids are Scottish, I work here, I pay tax so I think I should get to vote. The worst part of the EU ref was excluding EU citizens from the vote, it alienated many of my friends who had lived here for years. If people who support Independence start going along ethnic voting rights I think it will loose much more support than it might gain, do you not want the EU citizens voting in the next Indyref?

      How about winning some of the English folks who live here over? I know a few who have moved up because they like what they see and want Independence in the EU. I also know a few older No voters heading back south. I support English Scots for Yes, will campaign even harder in a future vote to convince my fellow English folks of the case for Independence.

    118. Az says:

      Ballot devised for next indyref:

      Please choose one of the following two options for Scotland:

      YES Scotland should be independent

      NO Scotland should not remain in the union

    119. heedtracker says:

      It’s all emotional for them. It’s all about maintaining Great Britain.

      The English are probably less than 10% of the Scottish electorate.

      How many times does that fact need to be stated?

      4 million Scots voters, 400k English, in Scotland. Do the sums. 1 in 4 Scots vote tory, and that could easily be pique tory too, as Colonel Ruth’s we said no and we meant no, loses what energy it did have, every Strong and Stable Teresa day.

      I know its peak but pique also works:D

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      @SquirrelTower
      Well said.

    121. Thepnr says:

      @SquirrelTower

      You are totally right in my opinion. This is NOT about nationality but about the people who have made Scotland their HOME having a say in how it should be governed.

      For me that includes the English and those from elsewhere, I would add though that I have no problem with a residency requirement of say three years and that I would like proof of residency before your allowed a vote. All this in order simply to prevent voter fraud such as the two homes or students carry on.

      I’d also like to add for the benefit of Scottish Steve if your reading, you stated:

      If we cant legally disqualify English residents from voting then we must be resigned to forever be stuck in the Union.

      Sorry but that is absolute crap, if we can’t persuade enough of those that live in Scotland to support Independence then we don’t deserve to win as our case isn’t strong enough.

      The point is to make our case strong enough such that will ensure a victory. No need to fear the unknown but you WILL have to work for it to make it possible.

      That’s all of us, you mean and the English for Independence movement. At least I know they are doing something and I welcome that.

    122. Sinky says:

      In areas like Edinburgh South where 15% of voters were born in England the SNP /Yes campaigns have an uphill task. Montinegro won its Indy referendum with a much higher percentage of non indigeous voters. So we should listen to Squirrel Tower’s advice on how we reach out to those English voters who don’t vote Tory come hell or high water.

    123. Graeme says:

      “Sorry but that is absolute crap, if we can’t persuade enough of those that live in Scotland to support Independence then we don’t deserve to win as our case isn’t strong enough.”

      Is a bit like saying if we can’t convince enough turkeys to vote for Christmas then our case isn’t strong enough

    124. mogabee says:

      Well thanks a bunch!

      Some of the comments on here are pathetic to be honest. Speaking as a confirmed English born Independent voter.

      They aren’t helpful and they aren’t realistic. If the only input you have is to ‘stoke’ anger in your fellow commenters, well bloody done.

      We win the next and LAST indyref by sheer hard graft and doing the trudging door to door stuff that encourages folk to get out and vote.If you aren’t up for that, leaving out those not able, then you don’t really want an independent country…

    125. colin alexander says:

      Guys, don’t stress about any Little Englander colonist types preventing a YES vote from winning.

      Because the their Little Englander UK Govt isn’t going to allow a referendum in the first place.

      And the spineless devolutionist SNP Govt isn’t going to do anything about that and by 2021 they will be an ever weaker minority administration, if they still remain as Westminster North Branch Office managers.

    126. Mike d says:

      Good post squirreltower. I guess we just get frustrated at times.

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      “Is a bit like saying if we can’t convince enough turkeys to vote for Christmas then our case isn’t strong enough”

      Comparing the English to turkeys, are you “Graeme”? Gobble gobble.

      From your other post “… and I mean no disrespect to English people when I say that.”

      And I’m Uncle Tom Cobbley, ‘n all.

    128. twathater says:

      Squirrel/tower 8,18pm I personally apologise if anything i have said makes you feel alienated it is not directed at you personally , it is also unfortunately true that at indy ref 1 our aims and aspirations were defeated by the inclusion of many many nay voting english incomers .

      You have stated that a better idea would be to win over the many no voting english voters also supported by yesindyref2 unfortunately i have only ever spoken with a few english incomers and even a MENTION of an indy vote or discussion is met with total silence , or a rant about Salmond, or that woman Sturgeon , that somewhat clouds my belief that these people are up to being converted .

      I do not want to alienate you as i do appreciate your contribution to Scotland but seriously would you not wish independence whether you have a vote or not , in other words would you forfeit your right to vote if it meant a better chance of independence from this loony asylum

    129. Thepnr says:

      @Graeme

      Is a bit like saying if we can’t convince enough turkeys to vote for Christmas then our case isn’t strong enough

      Well I feel a wee bit sorry for you Grahame if you don’t feel strong enough in your conviction for Independence that you believe we are incapable of gaining it, are you frightened to admit that maybe not enough of our fellow Scots don’t want it?

      I really don’t like going down this road of exclusion because who makes the choices of who should be excluded?

      A precedent was set in Indyref1, you can be certain that same precedent will be used for Indyref2 as to who can vote. Maybe the only differences would be a tightening up of the rules to prove residence. It certainly won’t include Nationality or we can kiss goodbye to all the Pro-Indy votes we hope to gain from EU residents.

      Common sense, if you have it then use it.

    130. Davie Oga says:

      Create a register of Scottish citizen electors.

      Anyone who has at least one Scottish born parent.

      Anyone who has a grandparent born in Scotland.

      Anyone born in Scotland who has one parent with legal, reckonable residence in Scotland for three out of the four years prior to the birth.

      If you do not qualify as a Scottish citizen through birth or descent then you can apply to be added to the register of citizens by proving five years of reckonable residence in Scotland, a clean criminal record, and no applications for state benefits in the two years prior to your application.

      This would mirror the electoral and citizenship requirements of the Republic of Ireland, and be a very liberal definition of citizenship by international standards.

      Voting in Scotland should be reserved for Scottish citizen electors, not for people looking for more bang for their buck in the UK housing market, forces personnel from outwith Scotland, non resident students, and every Tom, Dick, and Nigel who wants to move “up north”, because they reckon it’s closer to theirs and Jeremy’s socialist utopia or across the Irish sea because there is no longer enough orange walks in Belfast.

    131. Graeme says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      22 December, 2017 at 9:15 pm

      “Comparing the English to turkeys, are you “Graeme”? Gobble gobble.”

      I didn’t mean it to come over like that I was trying to compare the analogy, probably a poor choice

      If Scottish independence depends on convincing English residents here that Independence is a good thing we can forget it, it will never happen

    132. PictAtRandom says:

      “This is NOT about nationality but about the people who have made Scotland their HOME having a say in how it should be governed.

      For me that includes the English and those from elsewhere, I would add though that I have no problem with a residency requirement of say three years and that I would like proof of residency before your allowed a vote. All this in order simply to prevent voter fraud such as the two homes or students carry on.”

      I would argue that it is about nationality and that English incomers and native-born nothingarians should be encouraged towards a greater awareness of the things that have gone towards making us something more than a shire in search of better governance. Ignorance is not a virtue.
      Having said that, the second paragraph is the nub of the matter. Bloodlines and birth certificates isn’t the way to go, but some reasonably robust definition of Scottish residence / citzenship is. Holyrood really needs to take control of IndyRef2 and stop second home and postal vote magical mystery nonsense.

    133. Joemcg says:

      To the posters that are saying we need to work harder to persuade English residents, what if they can’t or don’t want to be persuaded? Is that the Indy dream over because we dare not upset these people? Wow. A capitulation. Thanks chaps. I’m in the “only Scottish nationals allowed a vote” camp and I don’t care what you say. You do realise we would have won in 2014 if that was the case? Can’t believe your mentality to be honest. It’s infuriating.

    134. ScottieDog says:

      @SquirrelTower
      Well said

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      @Greame: “If Scottish independence depends on convincing English residents here that Independence is a good thing we can forget it, it will never happen

      And yet in the Indy Ref it was 45% YES, a recent poll had it at 47%, and this Panelbase one, the subject of this article (and one in The (Independence supporting) National, has it at 49%, Which with the same turnout would have 1,764,000 YES against 1,836,000 NO – just 36,001 voters to convince to change from NO to YES.

      And that includes the polling of around 500,000 of the dreaded [1] “English”.

      [1] It’s a popular (or used to be) expression in England.

    136. Graeme says:

      Thepnr says:
      22 December, 2017 at 9:22 pm

      @Graeme

      Well I feel a wee bit sorry for you Grahame if you don’t feel strong enough in your conviction for Independence that you believe we are incapable of gaining it, are you frightened to admit that maybe not enough of our fellow Scots don’t want it?

      I didn’t say we wern’t capable of gaining our independence I don’t know if we will or not but I hope we will.

      As far as being frightened to admit that not enough of our fellow Scots want it, I’m not actually convinced that enough don’t want it. but that’s a different argument.

      My only argument is I don’t think it’s right that English people get a vote on Scottish independence, for the reasons I set out in my post at 5:21,

      I admit my turkey wasn’t particularly good analogy but it wasn’t meant to offend anyone

    137. SquirrelTower says:

      Hi Twathater
      Thanks for your comments. My concern is with what message you send out. It’s an Independence no matter what scenario.

      If I don’t get to vote despite living, working and having kids here am I really welcome to live in a newly Independent Scotland. It’s a fairly strong message to limit it to ethnic Scots only. How about my French neighbour or would it just be English people excluded? Would someone born in Scotland but living in say Canada the last 20 years get to vote but someone born in England but who had lived here their entire life not.

      There are several groups of strongly No voters, would you exclude those over 75 or women. For me it feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I guess if I was offended by being excluded I could leave, like those EU citizens who are off post Brexit. I do think it’s playing to those who say Independence supporters are anti-English.

      Seems a shame when we are so close too

    138. dakk says:

      @ Cameron B Brodie
      ‘After watching this, your brain will not be the same | Lara Boyd | TEDxVancouver

      That was worth watching,thanks.

      There’s hope for me and Eric Simpson yet.

    139. Dr Jim says:

      Do you think if there’d been 5 million Scottish voters in Scotland who were eligible to vote to stay in the EU keeping England from it’s desired goal they would have accepted the result, you bet your boots they wouldn’t they’d have kicked up a helluva row beforehand and not included our vote for some anomalous constitutional excuse in exactly the same way as they rig everything else

      Once again everybody’s trying to be reasonable to show it’s not an anti English thing and they’re right it’s not anti anybody it’s pro Scotland and I’ve said it before I’m half English and a pensioner so I’d be delighted to exclude myself on the grounds of age although I was born right here in Lennox Castle right behind Lulu and I wouldnae give her the vote either (poor wummin disnae know where she’s from)

      My age group are in general idiots of the first order who are only concerned with next weeks pension and how much our next bribe will be to vote for whoever promises us the most and then pull the drawbridge up behind us, look what happened when the Tories said they were going to remove the pension triple lock for God sake all the polls immediately showed oldies would vote Labour and frightened the Tories to death we shouldn’t be choosing for our younger folk because it’s going to be their life not ours

      Old folk are selfish ill informed and they don’t care, now we know that isn’t every one of us

      But facts is facts it’s most of us, the numbers don’t lie
      I don’t want to be excluded from anything but it seems to me unfair that I can outvote a teenager who has say 60 years of life to go and I might not last past a week on tuesday

    140. boris says:

      This is the way to resolve the difficulty. English people living in Scotland who genuinely wish to reside in an independent Scotland will gladly give up their vote for the cause of independence. Those who intend to vote “No” will object. But this is the answer

      https://caltonjock.com/2017/10/07/no-country-in-history-has-ever-rejected-independence-until-scotland-in-2014-what-an-unfortunate-precedence-to-set-we-need-to-correct-the-mistake-in-2019/

    141. Thepnr says:

      @Joemcg

      Do me a favour and point me to a post that says “we need to work harder to persuade English residents”. All I’ve saw is that we need to work harder to persuade all. Maybe I missed what you saw.

    142. John from Fife says:

      As suggested in previous threads the question should be – Should Scotland be an independent country. The EU position should be addressed in a subsequent referendum and a promise of better pensions should also be made. Also a qualifying resident period should be required.

    143. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, here’s the English maths approximately. 500,000 resident here, 400,000 of voting age, for the sake of argument cos I can’t be bothered, all of them turned out last time and will next time.

      1). According to Ashcroft and other polls, the figure stated is that 75% of them voted NO. So that’s 100,000 YES, 300,000 NO, a majority NO of 200,000. Yet the actual majority for NO was 400,000, so it were’t the English wot dun it for us.

      2). This poll shows 72% NO, so 3%, that’s 12,000 have moved from NO to YES. Despite the “English waste of time”.

      3). It needs 36,001 more NO votes to move to YES, so putting it another way, if 36,001 “English” voters moved to YES, then that’s Indy Ref 2 won, Scotland Independent. That would still leave 63% NO to 37% YES for the “English”, and who knows, in the event it could be 50-50?

    144. bjsalba says:

      @t42
      What you say proves how little you understand about the EU.
      Not surprising since the UKMSM does its best to misinform you.

      The EU is not sovereign – never was.

      It is a co-operative that works for all. Co-operation not competition is the aim.

    145. Thepnr says:

      What’s happened to “Civic Nationalism”? Especially here on Wings.

      Your being watched closely you know just so as they can see the Cybernats fuck it up for themselves. That’s a certainty.

      I ain’t no Blood and Soil” nationalist.

    146. Marcia says:

      In the next referendum anyone with a holiday home in Scotland shouldn’t have a vote. It should be given to anyone living permanently in Scotland. That should reduce the amount of postal votes in a few Constituencies.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      Without independence, Scotland is unlikely to stem its loss of human capital, among other more tangible forms of capital. This will limit Scotland’s ability to practice its culture, thereby limiting the potential for endogenous growth.


      What is the ‘Endogenous Growth Theory’

      The endogenous growth theory is an economic theory which argues that economic growth is generated from within a system as a direct result of internal processes. More specifically, the theory notes that the enhancement of a nation’s human capital will lead to economic growth by means of the development of new forms of technology and efficient and effective means of production….

      https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/endogenousgrowththeory.asp

      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/what-is-endogenous-growth-theory/

      Intro to the Solow Model of Economic Growth
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVAS-t83Tx0

    148. heedtracker says:

      SquirrelTower says:

      Seems a shame when we are so close too.

      It’s not shame, a lot of it is stemming from how all EU citizens were blocked from the Brexit ref vote as we know, just like that. So you can be forgiven for being a Scot YES vote looking askance shall we say, at Brits in Scotland, saying,

      ” look do not even consider trying to block us English voting indyref2, it hurts our feelings as we want a say in our Scottish future, but do not look at our UK gov who barred and blocked absolutely everyone and anyone voting in Brexit ref1 they felt like, for not one published reason…its different because it is different and the EU citizens here do not have the right to vote in our British refs because, just because…so if you want us English in Scotland to vote YES indy ref2, don’t even think about not letting us.”

      and so on.

      Technically, it was a smooth move Cammers thingee, blocking all 3+ million EU citizens from voting in the Brexit ref, very smooth.

      But they also gave Irish and Commonwealth citizens living in the UK a Brexit vote AND expats who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, which must have been fun too.

      Ofcourse they blocked under 18’s from voting too, unlike in Scots indyref1. Can’t think why.

      So as you can see, its quite an interesting debate to have, who can vote on Scotland’s future. Ultimately ofcourse, everything is different, as soon as you cross the border back in to England.

    149. Thepnr says:

      I’ll tell you something, I can fully understand why some Scots want Independence for the (very) simple reason that the “hate the English”.

      Well fair enough, I’ll even take their votes if it gives us Independence but the is no way that is is a reason for wanting to be Independent.

      Well, I can only talk for myself of course but “hating the English” is the stupidest reason I can imagine for wanting to gain your Independence. Know what if you did gain it under such an umbrella I doubt I’d want to live here among such bigots.

    150. Bob Mack says:

      Nobody hates the English. I would give them a big kiss on the forehead. However, when I stayed in Japan I did not live as a Scot. I tried to fit in with local custom and behaviour,which on occasion seemed very odd to me.

      The key was that I tried to give the locals priority and did not enforce my preferences on them. When in Rome etc. The problem is that this is easier to do in a totally different culture. When English people move here they feel they are often moving to an alternative part of the UK, though with a shared culture and history over the past 300 years.

      There are those from England who support an independent Scotland and those who vehemently oppose it. You cannot dislike one group because of the actions of another.

      Anyone who is anti English is no good in my book. It is nothing to do with any kind of blood or soil. It is simply demographics.

    151. cearc says:

      Opinions on voter eligibility would be better addressed to the current Scot Gov consultation (open until 12th. March) rather than on WoS comments.

      https://consult.gov.scot/elections/electoral-reform/

    152. Hamish100 says:

      Seems there are a few pretend Independent supporters trying to cause discord and mess things up tonight. The little “schottlander ulster brits” are worried with the Catalonia result.
      Despite beatings, imprisonment of political leaders, removal of independent verifiers the right wing fascists couldn’t win.

      Have faith – the basic truth is that we are still the best people to govern ourselves holds fast and they know it.

      HONESTLY, brit nats what are you doing—even boris is fighting with the ruskies in Moscow. The brexiters are losing the plot.

    153. mike cassidy says:

      The creation of a Scottish taxcode was not designed to differentiate for indyref purposes between

      those who work here and pay their taxes here

      and those who work here but pay their taxes elsewhere.

      But it would be political madness not to take advantage of the differentiation to refuse a vote to those who do not have an ‘S’tax code.

      There are no issues of residency, ethnicity or any of those other uneasy concepts.

      Either you are paying tax here – or you are not.

      It would be great to know if any research has been done on the numbers likely to be ‘disenfranchised’ by this.

    154. Tam the Bam. says:

      Mogabee … 9-06pm

      Well said Mogabee…most of these anti-English comments are not thought through and are frankly…..plain daft.

    155. Davie Oga says:

      heedtracker says:
      Technically, it was a smooth move Cammers thingee, blocking all 3+ million EU citizens from voting in the Brexit ref, very smooth.

      Cameron set the franchise the same way that it is for a UK general election. UKOK is pretty open by international standards. Cameron is British and he ran the referendum such that British people decided their future. Fair play to him.

    156. Faltdubh says:

      Anti-English sentiment in Scotland is minimal. Let’s be honest, there are large parts of our country where English people live, and maybe once a drunk Scot called them an English so/so.

      We are very welcoming people, and I bet such a large number of incomers would not be treated so handsomely in many other places. You’ll find an English voice, leader of a community group, callers to talk shows etc every single day of your life. They are not oppressed by Scots.

      I do not hate the English ; I like them, but it craws in my throat a bit to hear them in my country where they have a great standard of living, bang for their buck from their south English sale ; yet vote to impose Tory laws on our population (all of us ; not just Scots – the people of SCOTLAND)

    157. SquirrelTower says:

      Heedtracker

      Thats absolutely not my view at all, I hated what the UK government did in the EU ref.

      Scotland and its people have always made me feel its home. Part of this was being able to vote in 1997 and 2014, it felt an enlightened, open minded place. Thats one of the big reasons I support Independence, Scotland always feels like a place that wants to be a fully modern democracy, not afraid of innovation. Unlike Westminster which is never going to reform.

      I like that here “a man’s a man for a that” that respect for all and everyone coming together no matter who they are or where they come from, wether its Syria or Manchester or Auchtermuchty.

      The Scottish Government can set the franchise how it wishes. But I thought the Scottish Government and the SNP played a blinder in the 2014 vote. It was civic nationalism writ large and thats something to be proud of.

    158. Fred says:

      Folk with holiday homes in Scotland don’t get a vote & although they no longer get a discount in their Council Tax this year they are still inapplicable for improvement grants. They have to fill in a form to be eligible for a vote & holiday home owners are excluded.

    159. K1 says:

      We’ve had this conversation countless times and I note the same voices expressing their ‘blood and soil’ position. It’s not going to happen. Everyone who lives and works in Scotland will get a vote. Including EU nationals. And including all those who have settled in Scotland from other parts of the UK.

      That’s the right and completely fair way to do it. We aren’t starting from a 23/25% base like the last time, it is very clear given the latest and other polls that the movement is toward Yes. For this to be the ‘actual’ case, then it is clear that many from other parts of the UK will be voting Yes next time too.

      I’m not going to go into the analogies that ah’ve expressed before about this subject matter on here, with regard the absurdity of literally deciding ‘who’ is Scottish in terms of ‘residence’ criteria. We would just become like Westminster, sending letters to people who have lived in Scotland for the past 40 and 50 years and telling them they aren’t eligible to vote in a Scottish referendum even though they have raised their families and worked here most of the their lives.

      What next after independence? Do we send them letters telling them that they have to return from ‘whence they came’ as we only want ‘pure’ Scots in Scotland. It’s frankly ridiculous that grown adults can’t even think this through. Yer using our movement as cloak for your own prejudices when you think like this.

      The SNP have pitched it just right. Get the fucking postal votes crap sorted and that should help and enable a ‘fairer’ outcome. Don’t turn on our neighbours who’ve come to live here. Next thing ye know someone will suggest taking our elderly folks for a long stroll off a short plank. Muppets.

    160. Tam the Bam. says:

      ………………… The PNR…..10-12pm

      ..” I aint no blood and soil Nationalist”

      Me neither …..and the day the YES/SNP ever advocate adherence to anything resembling this policy……

    161. Big Al says:

      Hogmanay in London? There’s the proof that he’s British not Scottish. What kind of masochist wants to spend Hogmanay in London?

    162. jfngw says:

      Anyone who has no intention of staying in Scotland, it doesn’t matter if they intend to vote yes or no, should not vote in a referendum. Only problem is how do you identify these people. It’s not their nationality that is the issue but their commitment to the country.

      I personally would never vote if I was just a temporary resident in a countries referendum even if I was entitled to.

    163. twathater says:

      Thepnr and others I absolutely get fuckin ragin when people resort to the anti english pish meme ,apart from now i try to conduct myself in a patient inclusive manner , because people have differing opinions from yourself why set out to destroy their character and malign their person , This is a blog where people are permitted to air their opinions and views relating to the best way to gain our independence
      As has been stated on many occasions if you believe people are spouting racist ,bigoted or suchlike comments report them to the site owner Stu he will deal with them

      My view is that we NEED independence if I offend anyone’s sensibilities in the methodology of that i’m sure the starving children , the homeless ,the unemployed the disabled will be first to say they don’t agree with my views , their conscience will insist that its achieved by fair means only

    164. heedtracker says:

      Cameron set the franchise the same way that it is for a UK general election. UKOK is pretty open by international standards. Cameron is British and he ran the referendum such that British people decided their future. Fair play to him.

      Its hardly fair play but you lot do have a different idea on fair play.

      British people deciding their future is fine but whataboutery,

      eg.

      Why can all commonwealth citizens have vote in the UK by just you know, moving here?

      Why can the Irish vote in the UK and not all the other EU citizens that have moved to the UK?

      Does a Commonwealth citizen have more right in the say of their future than EU citizen, is it just an old colonial thing?

      The idea you are pushing is that somehow Cammers was merely following internationally recognised convention by blocking 3+ million EU voters in the UK, some for decades too. That’s wrong.

      Blocking people voting in your country is not arbitrary.

      UK citizens in the EU are not permitted to vote in some EU member countries GE’s either but its not EU law. Some EU member states permit you to vote in their general elections but you might have to rescind voting rights in your country of origin.

      Anyhoo, point is smooth move Cammers could have easily allowed the EU citizens in the UK to vote in Brexit but he chose not to.

      Simples:D

    165. Effijy says:

      I think most of us get frustrated when these polls don’t deliver
      A resounding Yes, after all we now know that the Westminster
      Parties broke Every Promise made to Scotland in the run up
      To the last referendum.

      The trouble is that we Wings Supporters get to see the truth
      And most of the population exist on a constant diet of lies and
      Distortion from UK Media United.

    166. ScottieDog says:

      To mimic the petty nationalist behaviour of the leave campaign would be utter madness and let’s face it, it’s not going to happen. I think it far better to concentrate our efforts trying to persuade people to actually vote for starters.
      What next, SVSM – Scottish votes for Scottish minister in holyrood?!

    167. CameronB Brodie says:

      Does the unwritten British ‘constitution’ provide adequate protection to Scots (see Brexit)? Should Scots be governed by principles of English constitutional law (see Brexit)? Does a written constitution encompassing the protection of human rights, not sound both attractive and compatible with Scotland’s historic tradition of popular sovereignty (see Brexit)?

      The constitution of democracy and the pretensions of the plebiscite

      ….To say that there are two theoretical or ideological alternatives is not to determine their respective merits. You might think that either could be adopted depending on your viewpoint. Yet, there are three arguments – one logical, one technical and one political – that show that the only meaningful interpretation of democracy is the constitutional one. Plebiscitary democracy cannot be the basis of legitimate government….

      https://constitution-unit.com/2016/11/18/the-constitution-of-democracy-and-the-pretensions-of-the-plebiscite/

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      That 49% YEs, 51% NO is elimininating the don’t knows. If that’s 803 who responded out of 1022, and the other 219 were don’t knows (or won’t vote), that’s 21.4% which I think is high. I personally would expect (and hope) the don’t knows to be high at this stage. Remember last time where many of us thught the move was from NO to don’t know and then to YES?

      Get half of that percentage to vote YES and leave just 5% to vote NO, and it’s home and dry for Independence.

      Hooray!

    169. colin alexander says:

      It’s a fact the majority of Scots born voters voted YES.
      By a huge margin UK citizens born outwith Scotland voted NO.

      But, that’s by the by. The past.

      There won’t be another legally binding referendum under this current SNP Government. The UK won’t give permission for constitutional changing powers. The SNP wouldn’t defy it. The SNP have never asserted Scottish sovereignty under Nicola Sturgeon.

      So, no point in arguing the toss about it.

      The SNP aren’t going to lead Scotland to independence or even another indyref. They are devolutionists. They have decided to play the Westminster game, like Labour before them.

      If you want to know what’s going to happen to Scotland, watch to see what the London Tory Govt decides what’s going to happen to Scotland region.

    170. Thepnr says:

      I think it’s pretty obvious the eligibility to vote in any election or referendum needs to be sorted out, too much discord.

      Well you/we can all have our say, just go to cearc’s link.

      https://consult.gov.scot/elections/electoral-reform/

    171. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah, even better, from SGP: Yes 49.2%, No 50.8%.

      The Rev don’t like decimals 🙂

      (he’s clearly a decimalist)

      Ah, even better, it no longer needs 36,001, it just needs under 29,000 to move from NO to YES. Wow, that was quick, just a few short hours and we’ve already got 1/5th of the way there. Good work!

    172. heedtracker says:

      If you want to know what’s going to happen to Scotland, watch to see what the London Tory Govt decides what’s going to happen to Scotland region.

      So we stop voting SNP Colin?

      Would you like to start your own independence party Colin?

      Maybe you and me could start one up, seeing as the SNP are not that into it anymore, after 70+ years?

      Its like that in Catalonia isn’t it Colin, with more than one indy Catalan party, although BBC gimp network have gone massive with the unionist party being the biggest “winner” yesterday, so its all over for Catalonia too.

      Howabout the, Colin Alexander is not a dreary Rock like bore party, for Scottish indy.

    173. frogesque says:

      @colin alexander 11.42

      Wishing you and all supporters of the Union a very merry Christmas.

      To all supporters of Indy, let’s keep the cork in the bottle until our very own Independence Day!

    174. David Caledonia says:

      Voting in a referendum on scottish independence is quite simple, only people born and residing in scotland should have a vote
      Why should a quite well off couple decide to relocate to scotland from lets say england, have a vote here when they where not born in scotland and have the heart of a unionist
      Its a bloody ludicrous situation and needs to be changed, a referendum is for scots who live here to decide, not every tom, dick, or harry who comes here to retire from england or anywhere else

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @colin alexander 11.42
      Merry Christmas to you people in the alternate dimension, Earth X. Hope it all gets better for you.

    176. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The supposed English impediment is a diversion.There is no proof to support it

      Most English residents in Scotland are retired pensioners and they voted NO. Most of our own Scottish retired pensioners also voted NO.

      Most English who come here to work and bring up children are just as open to the independence case as our own people

    177. frogesque says:

      @David Caledonia 12.01

      The blood and soil divisive agenda has been done to death.

      Born in England but moved to Scotland before I was old enough to vote. Worked my life here, paid taxes, voted, married, had kids and now retired.

      England (Westminster) want to rip my rights away from me, are you seriously suggesting Scotland should do the same?

      I’m now 70, I want Indy so much it hurts at times. Please see a wider picture than the narrow agenda that would destroy the wider Indy movement.
      ?

    178. Thepnr says:

      Look at the state of this thread, the trolls out in force LOL.

      Get back in your boxes you carpet baggers, you’re not winning any prizes here. There is only one prize and it’s Scotland’s for the taking. Only ourselves can muck it up now, no help required.

      That’s why me and I’m sure others are being wound up on this thread. Us lot sticking together is their greatest fear, divide us and we’re easy to beat. So united we stand, then we WILL win.

      Theresa no more
      Boris no more
      Davis no more and Gove no mooore 🙂

    179. CameronB Brodie says:

      dakk
      Perhaps for yourself but Eric Simpson?

      ____

      It might not have been immediately apparent what I was trying to do, which was introduce folk to neuroplasticity and its potential to bring about behavioral and social change. We all learn differently and at different speeds, so don’t get frustrated with slowpokes. We all know someone who would intend voting No, so start chatting and re-shape their opinion.

      Brain and Culture
      Neurobiology, Ideology, and Social Change

      https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/brain-and-culture

    180. colin alexander says:

      I won’t be starting a new indy party. When the SNP don’t hold an indyref and it comes to the new Scot Parl elections and the SNP continue to lose support, Nicola Sturgeon and her husband will step down or be kicked out of their jobs by bitter SNP politicians who have lost cushy jobs due to bad decisions and a terrible waste of opportunities and resources.

      There will be a reformation somewhat along the lines Jim Sillars suggested: that SNP devolution administration will be separated from campaigning for indy.

      Whether that will be a breakaway competing indy faction or a planned, structured split with full support of the SNP remains to be seen.

      But the current setup where the SNP campaigns for devolution power and supposedly indy too, when the two are incompatible, simply does not work.

    181. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Regardless of Age, Race, Religion, Colour, Creed or Nationality

      It boils down to this folks.

      As 2017 draws to a close.

      After 3 & 1/4 years since Indy Ref 1.

      After enduring wartime levels of BritNat Propaganda where anything damaging to ‘The Union’ whether by the actions of BritNat Fascists, SNP/Scots Gov or Brexit it is buried like the HMT Lancastria Disaster was.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lancastria

      We come to this:

      Yes 49.2% versus No 50.8%

      Yet there is No Indy Ref 2 campaign.

      And Brexit hasn’t fully sunk it’s teeth into the wallets/purses of Soft Nos yet.

      Fucking bring it on BritNats.

      Cataluña shows that even if you try to beat a people into submission all you do is harden their resolve.

      2014 showed that the Union was over.

      2017 shows Devolution is dead.

      2018 says it is all to play for.

      Wonder if it will be a boring a year politically?

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jim Sillars? Ha, ha, that’s a spot on piece of analysis there Colin.

    183. colin alexander says:

      to frogesque

      Thank you. I also hope unionists have a merry Christmas, though I’m not a unionist.

      I also hope you, all the Wingers and independists have a good Christmas too.

      Goodnight.

    184. Bob Mack says:

      Colin, Really. Who gives a feck what you think.

    185. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Dinnae worry aboot the BritNat Trolls Folks:

      Reluctant Nationalist aka Colin Alexander

      Are stagging on all Christmas and New Year at the 77ths Barracks ‘cos he/she blew their cover ?

      Check oot the \”Fit to be tied thread”

    186. X_Sticks says:

      @Hugh Jones and Lewis Wilde.

      Thanks guys, really appreciate your support for our cause.

    187. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Dinnae worry aboot the BritNat Trolls Folks:

      Reluctant Nationalist aka Colin Alexander

      Are stagging on all Christmas and New Year at the 77ths Barracks ‘cos he/she blew their cover ?

      Check oot the “Fit to be tied thread”

    188. ScotsRenewables says:

      So much nonsense on here again about disenfranchising people not born in Scotland.

      Well, I’ve been resident here 50 years, longer than a lot of the idiots on here who want to take my vote away. I had a Scots wife, I have Scots children and grandchildren, a Scots partner, am a lifelong SNP voter and an ardent and active YES campaigner since 2011.

      Take my vote away and this is not the country I thought I lived in. The task at hand is to persuade EVERYONE resident here that independence is the way forward, not to start fiddling with the franchise.

      I have however suggested a two-year residence requirement before, that seems perfectly reasonable

    189. PhilM says:

      Trying to be technocratic about it…don’t shoot me down too quickly!
      Every ballot paper is to be stamped with an individual’s own computer code which will signify in part a voter’s country of origin. If the Yes and No vote are within 2% difference but a majority of Scots vote for independence then we get independence. A closer vote than 2014 but with our southern-born neighbours shackling us to the old country could be really problematic. Of course being able to pinpoint this problem early through individualised ballots is itself problematic but leaving it to supposition and random weighted polling is just as bad.
      Just a thought.

    190. PhilM says:

      Or how about no postal voting? Election monitors can go round old folks home and they can have their mini-elections on the day.
      I’m skeptical about last time but I wouldn’t rule out ballot-stuffing this time so no postal voting. The Colonel will just have to read Jane’s Defence Weekly and wait like the rest of us.

    191. Marcia says:

      Fred said

      ‘Folk with holiday homes in Scotland don’t get a vote & although they no longer get a discount in their Council Tax this year they are still inapplicable for improvement grants. They have to fill in a form to be eligible for a vote & holiday home owners are excluded.’

      ——————-

      Many owners (not living permanently in Scotland) with holiday homes DID vote in the last referendum by the owners putting their names on the electoral register. Hence the large postal vote in 2014. The councils don’t police the registration system properly.

    192. K1 says:

      Reiterate what others have posted. If you feel strongly about voting issues and electoral reform and you want your voice heard, then why not add your input to the ‘Electoral Reform’ consultation. This has specific questions regarding the franchise, you can read extensively what the current state of play is and what they are suggesting and looking at in terms of reform.

      This consultation is open to ‘everyone’ in Scotland. The question on ‘residency’ is in there. So stop moaning on here and express your views on the consultation. It’s easy to use and you can save your answers along the way. Fair amount to get through, so that you are informed before just spouting. Give it a go. Closes on 12th March 2018. So plenty of time to articulate your views and let the government know what you feel and think:

      https://consult.gov.scot/elections/electoral-reform/

    193. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Some of you guys need to have a rethink about this anti-English guff and get a grip.

      It’s not going to change as there is no way there can be any agreement to ban English residents without doing huge damage to the Yes movement. We can convince some of them to vote Yes and that is what we should concentrate on.

      My English friends are more committed to a Indy Scotland than anyone and they can lead in persuading others.

      The numbers of non-UK voters not supporting Indy is a bit of a mystery as I thought that would be higher especially for EU voters. That may change if we get support from the EU as UK leaving is a radically different to the situation with Catalonia and Spain. rUK won’t have many friends in the EU at the end of the Brexit negotiations.

      What we should be stopping is the huge numbers of postal votes combined with a lack of exit polls – that would be achievable and could make a big difference in the final vote.

      You have got to remember we do not need to convince any English or foriegn voters to get a super majority of 60 or 70% to win.

      My favourite result would be a simple 52% Yes to 48% No.

      Instant payback for the Brexit disaster and no way it could be overturned.

      If we can’t achieve that on Scots votes alone with a completely shambles in both the Tory and Labour Parties – then we don’t deserve to be an independent country.

    194. Cactus says:

      Anybuddy’s game, precisely, exactly, ah’ve never been of right wing.

      Playin’ a game, keep fillin’ in the gaps good Wingers.

      Perception always. Scotland as is always.

      Hi Ross Thomson, a politician.

      Love the Season.

      Always.

      Yes!

      X.

      *.

    195. Big Phil says:

      One of the most depressing btl’s ever. its not the english thats the problem, its the scots. we need to get a grip ffs.
      And Rev, the trolls have outed themselves , GET RID…Please.

    196. The English vote (400,000) in Scotland has the potential to be the critical factor in Indy2,

      we definitely need a 5 year (main) residency qualification,

      5 years living here shows a commitment to Scotland.

    197. Scottish Steve says:

      Just for clarification. My intention was not to stir up discord. I simply believed that the majority of the English being against indy up here was something which merited a legitimate discussion.

      For the record (I’ve already said this before but I’ll say it again) I believe everyone who lives and works here should have the right to decide on the country’s future. That doesn’t mean I have to like how they vote.

      Besides, if we excluded English residents, it would be a dream come true to Britnats everywhere as their anti-English accusations would be vindicated. This would do irreparable damage to the Yes movement.

      To any English readers who felt alienated by my posts: I am sorry. I sometimes run my mouth off before thinking. That’s no justification, however. I simply get frustrated now and again about this.

      I wish everyone a merry Christmas and happy New Year, nationalist and unionist alike.

    198. David Caledonia says:

      frogeque

      I was born in Scotland, so i am entitled to vote on the future of the country i was born into, if your children are scottish they are entitled to vote as is your wife if she is scottish
      What i am saying is that people who are for the union are moving to scotland and when they are resident here they can vote in a scottish independence referendum, your own case is not typical, but think of it this way, for everyone like you there are many more who are not going to vote against the unionist parties, because they are the parties they have voted for all their lives, in your own case there could be a simple solution to your own situation, now this is to do with age, say you came here when you where 5 years old, 10 years old, or 15 years old, then i would say someone in your situation should have a vote because you would have been brought up in scotland, and so would have your opinions about the kind of scotland you want to live in
      My father allways said, for every problem there is a solution, and the solution to your particular situation could be solved the way i mentioned, and btw, i am glad you have the vote, and i would say that even if you voted for the union, as you are entitled to have your say as you have lived and made scotland your home from a young age…………. All the best in the future

    199. Cactus says:

      Love the reason…, but, but, but..

      (an if ye can’t love the reason, for whatever yer family season)

      Love the family season.

      It’s important.

      It’s yours.

      HH2017.

      Once again, it’s that magical time again of 02:17.

      Love HOME Scotland.

      Love GAME.

      Ahm game.

    200. Dr Jim says:

      Half English on my mothers side half Scots on my Dads born in Scotland
      The English half of my family can’t understand why we want to “leave England” because of “the war” and we’re “the same” and why don’t I come down to England to live instead of staying “up there” with that Sturgeon racist woman

      Because they’ve read the papers about the terrible things that are happening in Scotland
      I’m their nephew, cousin, uncle yet they don’t believe a word I say, I must be brainwashed by that woman and that Salmond before her even though I’ve been a SNP voter for a very long time every chance there was a candidate to vote for, but it didn’t matter up till now because the SNP were previously ignored and not worth bothering about
      Funnily enough they do understand all the oil is in Scotland and if we leave we might keep it so what will they do, so we shouldn’t be “allowed” to leave

      Now there’s loads more I could bang on about but it’s mostly to do with how do I educate my own family when they don’t want to listen and don’t believe me anyway

      The English aren’t our enemy, but their lack of information, education and government is

    201. Cactus says:

      I hereby conclude that May is morphing into Murdo or vv…

      Check out a them their “jowls” people:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-compromise/
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/rabbit-bugs-fudd/

      Cheeky cheeky cheek cheek.

      Happy Hogmanay 2017.

      Ahm still game.

      HH2017.

    202. Breeks says:

      It’s said tongue in cheek…, but there’s a nucleus of technical truth too, although it’s a little pedantic….

      Citizens! Vote YES for Independence, and your vote counts as a sovereign citizen under Scotland’s Constitution.

      Subjects! Vote NO and you’re saying you’d throw away your sovereignty, and thus you’d forfeit Scottish Sovereign citizenship, make yourself non-sovereign by choice, so as a UK citizen your vote is merely advisory and doesn’t count as binding under your preferred choice of UK constitution.

      YES wins 100% of the sovereign vote because every YES is a sovereign choice under Scotland’s Constitution, and every NO is non binding choice under the UK constitution. A sovereign vote counts as binding, and a non-sovereign vote is advisory.

      It sounds daft doesn’t it? But set the Independence question to one side for a moment, and say for arguments sake the question on the ballot was “Do you want to live or die?” and suddenly it’s not such a daft concept. Everybody gets what they want. If you choose life, you live, choose death, you die, and what you have left at the finish is everybody getting what they voted for, but victory for a 100% majority of voters who chose life. In abstract conceptual terms, is that so very, very different from a 100% majority of voters who chose to be sovereign?

      Sadly, something tells me the Unionists will just be awkward and might not go for it…lol.

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland’s future will be shaped by how we achieve self-determination. Ethnic barriers to participation can’t really be justified ethically but I would personally be comfortable with a residency requirement comparable with other liberal democracies.

      Goals: Process Oriented vs Result Oriented
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzATIEYEWdY

    204. Cactus says:

      LOVE here and now in this, our collective family season.

      Reason, not required.

      Just because.

      Just.

    205. William Wallace says:

      @ Cactus

      Ah ha – There ye are 🙂 Seasons greetings and all the best fir 2018.

      Same to ah the rest o the wingers.

    206. Cactus says:

      Aweright William Wallace.

      Yes.

      X.

    207. Cactus says:

      Plus +

      The

      *

      Nae ending of sentences an that an awe knaw.

      Nice bush!

      Mwah!

    208. Cactus says:

      You may gnaw.

      Gimme something to eat, to gnaw…

      “Rather.”

      Most animals SHOULD be LOVED as transient beings.

      Or even to be able to just to.

      “And the darkest hour is just before dawn”

      I wonder what Chris Cairns has for the dawning of the morning.

      Picture it.

    209. Cactus says:

      One also wonders how the boss of wos will headline today’s CC toon.

      A festive theme mibbies?

      Ho-ho-ho.

    210. yesindyref2 says:

      So basically speaking there are 2 blood and soil points of view.

      1). If you’re born in Scotland you get to vote, so that’s me OK, but not my Irish wife (that’s the part of Ireland that went Indy a lot of years ago), but hey, my kids get to vote too. Sadly the Irish, English, Welsh, French, German, American, Indian, wife or husband or partner of any “Scot” DOESN’T get to vote, even if they got married and have lived here most of their lives (e.g. my wife), and raised kids here. Go away, you’re not welcome here, you’re not proper Scots like, sounds like the xenophobic Home Office – DEPORT THE LOT OF THEM. Bye bye my wife, oh, feck it, I’m coming with you, I don’t want to live in a country where “furriners” aren’t welcome.

      2). You have to have a Scottish parent. Which means I’m not Scottish in those terms as my parents were Welsh, even though I was born here and spent most of my life here. Oh wait, my wife’s not Scottish either, she’s Irish, so my kids born, weaned and brought up here aren’t Scottish either and can’t vote. God knows what nationality they are in the eyes of the blood and soils aresholes, Martian I guess.

      The thing is that if you take that definition of “Scot” back 2,000 years, there ain’t no Scots in Scotland, as nobody can trace their ancestry back 2,000 years and prove at least one parent of at least one parent of at least one parent ad infitum in the stupid minds of the blood and soil nationalarsewipes was a Scot. Go back a bit further and wer’re all gorillas, or amoeba.

      I tell you what you blood and soil nationalists can do with yourselves, and it ain’t polite. And no, I haven’t been drinking, just tea.

      Now feck off before I get angry.

    211. CameronB Brodie says:

      Mind-set matters. Britain is not One Nation, it is the political union between two nations. English law does not stand above Scots law!

      Can there be a transnational democracy? A European model.

      ….Traditionally, in the frame of the nation state where popular sovereignty is state sovereignty[4] the demos is the nation and the mechanisms to insure its conclusions and decisions are those of liberal representative democracy. If we search for such a demos and such a democracy in a transnational arena, we will not be able to find them. Nonetheless, what I want to argue here is that there is hope for more democracy at the international level and that a project such as the European Union pushes for a reassessment of the current trends in western democracies….

      http://perspectivesinternationales.com/?p=556

      The boundaries of transnational democracy:
      Alternatives to the all-affected principle

      Abstract

      Recently, theorists have sought to justify transnational democracy by means of the all-affected principle, which claims that people have a right to participate in political decision making that affects them. I argue that this principle is neither logically valid nor feasible as a way of determining the boundaries of democratic communities. First, specifying what it means to be affected is itself a highly political issue, since it must rest on some disputable theory of interests; and the principle does not solve the problem of how to legitimately constitute the demos, since such acts, too, are decisions which affect people. Furthermore, applying the principle comes at too high a cost: either political boundaries must be redrawn for each issue at stake or we must ensure that democratic politics only has consequences within an enclosed community and that it affects its members equally.

      Secondly, I discuss three possible replacements for the all-affected principle: (a) applying the all-affected principle to second-order rules, not to decisions; (b) drawing boundaries so as to maximise everyone’s autonomy; [c] including everyone who is subject to the law. I conclude by exploring whether [c] would support transnational democracy to the extent that a global legal order is emerging.

      Conclusion

      I have argued that the all-affected principle should be rejected, because it does not help us draw the proper boundaries of political community and because it may have some rather unpleasant consequences if we were to try to approximate it anyway. Neither of the three alternatives considered here solve the fundamental boundary problem in democratic theory, but they all advance upon the indeterminate all-affected principle. The subject-to-the-law principle seems to be least problematic, substantiating a precise claim: that any already existing lawgiver should be democratically governed by those subject to the laws it issues. Thus, the subject-to-the-law principle might help debates for and against transnational democracy to get out of the quagmire of premising the project on neboluous notions of globalisation and affectedness. By drawing our attention to law and its enforcement upon people as the ground for democratic inclusion, the principle fruitfully opens up new possibilities for arguing about the boundaries of transnational democracy.

      Perhaps, though, these attempts to solve the boundary problem demonstrate that it is unsolvable in principle: a community cannot lift itself by the hair and provide its own democratic justification. Of course, we can still solve boundary problems in both theory and practice, but we cannot always justify such solutions in terms of democratic principles. Chris Brown argues that the quest for a democratic legitimacy of borders is symptomatic of a wider problem, by which political theory is reduced to moral theory and all social arrangements are regarded as in need of rational justification. But, as Brown suggests, we have no reason to believe that such justification is always going to be available:

      “Politics is about practical action in a realm where no answer can be other than provisional, not about the application of formulae concerning matters such as social justice – and it ought not to be surprising that when formulaic approaches are made to subjects such as the legitimacy of borders the argument quite soon breaks down.”79

      Even – or especially – in an allegedly globalising world, borders are ubiquitous. Drawing, defending and challenging the boundaries between inside and outside are among the most political of issues, and it is at best naïve to think that we could find some formula by which to bridge the gap between the people and its constitution and, once and for all, make the drawing of boundaries uncontroversial and, effectively, apolitical.80

      https://www.jus.uio.no/smr/english/people/aca/johanmka/publications/The%20boundaries%20of%20transnational%20democracy.pdf

      Mind Control: How to win the war in your head | Owen Fitzpatrick | TEDxTallaght
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBwQZv3_OXE

    212. Cactus says:

      49% vs 51% it seems fur now.

      Let us sort this out Scotland.

      Turn them tables.

      53.

    213. Robert Peffers says:

      @DaveyM says: 22 December, 2017 at 2:21 pm:

      “Some of the subgroup differences are very interesting. I’m surprised by the slight pro-Brexit majority among my own age group (35-55), but it’s within the margin of error and could in reality be a slight majority for Yes-EU.”

      Oh! Yes! It’s that sudden conversion to unionism when you become middle aged, DaveyM.

      I suppose now that I’m into my eighties I best start voting no just to prove your theory that all we older people must be unionists because we are the older generation.

      Aye!
      Richt!.

      There is, of course, a far more logical explanation for the demographic, but I’m very sick and tired explaining it to numpties over and over again.

    214. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hugh Jones says: 22 December, 2017 at 2:23 pm:

      “Just to say I’m English and fairly mature in years but am a passionate supporter of independence after nearly 30 years of living here.”

      Don’t waste your breath typing skills, Hugh. Nothing will ever get through to these illogical numpties. They firmly believe that if you are past early middle age you must perforce be a unionist.

      It is an unshakable mantra of the more unthinking YES movement.

    215. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Cactus =)

      Aye, let us sort this out Scotland!

      It IS down to us, each of us individualy and collectively.

      The tide is turning =)

      And we ARE on our way =)

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @pitchfork says: 22 December, 2017 at 2:23 pm:

      “46% of Labour voters backing Yes in this scenario is astonishing when you recall how many pro-indy voters have aleady left Labour for SNP.”

      And that is the beginnings of the logical understanding of the matter. Those that remain with Labour, and the other Westminster Establishment unionists, are what is left of the dyed in the wool unionists. They are not of the older generation simply because of their age but because they are all that is left of the totally brain washed unionists.

      It is total madness to note that there are larger proportions of unionist who remain unionists and then conclude that this is entirely due to their age. Where else would the independence movement require to convert unionists than from the ranks of the established and well brainwashed unionist parties?

      The plain logic is simply that these people are long established unionists and not that they suddenly became unionist on reaching a certain age. The plain truth is that they are what remains of the unionist parties and they are demographically older because the younger people are not generally becoming unionists.

      That is except for the growing numbers of extremist right wingers who are generally from the younger generations – aided and abetted by a hard core of a right wing extremists leadership from previous generations. The Fascists weren’t all killed off in WWII.

    217. Achnababan says:

      Robert
      Very good point, and well made.

    218. Graeme says:

      Hoss Mackintosh says:
      23 December, 2017 at 1:08 am

      “Some of you guys need to have a rethink about this anti-English guff and get a grip.”

      What anti English guff ?

      I’ve looked through this thread and can’t find it, but perhaps I missed it

    219. Robert Peffers says:

      @Faltdubh says: 22 December, 2017 at 2:28 pm:

      “Whilst it has been a terrible year for the Tories and May, and she’s sort of ending the year on a bit of a high regarding Brexit”

      Yes, – Faltdubh, but that is only the false face of the unionist controlled media talking and a large chunk of the brainwashed masses will not yet have realised that it is all just media spin and false news.

      The penny must drop, and drop soon. The facts are there to see and hear for those with eyes and ears rather more attuned to what is being said and done outside of the Westminster protective bubble.

      A fragile protective bubble that cannot be maintained by the shrinking media that battles the 24/7/365 social media that is ever increasing its influence while the established media outlets get ever more mistrusted.

    220. Fergus Green says:

      We have to bring a further 1% to YES and the obvious demographic to address is the over 55s. So what do older people worry about most? Probably their pensions and their fuel bills.

      If we go ahead and set up a not-for-profit energy company, that would be a big step forward because the ‘big 6’ energy providers would have to respond by lowering prices. Secondly, we have to assure pensioners and those approaching pension age (the over 55 demographic) that moves are in place to raise state pensions to the average EU level.

      By sending tax paid in Scotland by Scottish citizens to the Scottish Treasury instead of funding southern tax cuts and vanity projects, we can build a viable case for this

    221. Ken500 says:

      Scotland pays its own OAP. Taxes raised in Scotland pay for (UK) Gov OA pension. All welfare benefits paid in Scotland are raised in Scotland. It used to be £16Billion but will be less as unemployment has fallen. Scotland loses £Billions paying for illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. The Tory slush fund. A total waste of taxpayers money. Scotland Gas to make repayments on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Westminster taxes the Oil & Gas sector at 40% when the price had fallen. Losing £Billions thousands of jobs in Scotland.

      The Tory psycho bastards. A bunch of losers. The unionists sat and watched as £Billions were takened out of Scotland to be wasted. Bring back FPTP get rid of the lot of them.

      Scotland raises more in taxes pro rata. £54Billion. The rest of the UK raises £45Billion pro rata. Borrows and spends more. £10Billion pro rata.

      Holyrood asked for details (HMRC) to recompense the people that were being sanctioned in Scotland and denied welfare benefits. Westminster refused. The cuts had to be mitigated in other ways. £100Million a year. No bedroom tax etc.

      Gov pensions should get at least £180 a week. Instead of welfare top ups and administration costs. Scotland pays for administration in London. Civil service on the Mall and London HQ’s but that does not benefit the Scottish economy. A right racket.

    222. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lollysmum says: 22 December, 2017 at 3:12 pm:

      “I’m also English but I wouldn’t dream of voting No in Indyref. Not a hope in hell of that ever happening.”

      The point that should be apparent but isn’t. Lollysmum, is the definition of both, “Scottish”, and “English”, as a nationality.

      There actually are no such nationalities. If you obtain a, “British”, passport it says you are British and although Westminster is not the parliament of Britain that fact is actually true.

      The British Passport is issued to such as the three Crown Dependencies and places like Gibraltar that are independent of Westminster rule. This is because they are issued under the Royal Prerogative and the Queen is monarch of several non-Westminster countries.

      Factually, Lollysmum, you are a British Citizen and you will note that the SNP SG refer to, “The People of Scotland”, and no matter where you come from originally, if you live mainly in Scotland, pay your taxes and register to vote in Scottish Elections you are indeed one of the people of Scotland.

      As an SG blurb stated long age, “It is not where you came from but where we are all going together that matters”.

      Some of the very best, “People of Scotland”, were born outside Scottish borders. I’ll put that another way – if you want to identify as being one of Scotland’s people then you are.

    223. Terence callachan says:

      Actually your figures are incorrect
      Of the 92 people born in England
      17% did not reply
      23% said they would vote for Scottish independence and staying in EU
      60% said they would vote for Englands Westminster to continue control of Scotland and out of EU
      The 17% who did not reply will be people who are likely to vote against Scottish independence but want to stay in EU
      They are unlikely to be English people who are in favour of Scottish independence but want out of EU
      So the English people who are likely to vote against Scottish independence is about 77% of the million that live in Scotland
      770,000
      I previously thought it about 800,000 but 770,000 is close to that figure
      Most of these English people are living temporarily in Scotland to work
      Tell me again why does a country that is seeking independence from another country allow people from that other country to have a vote ?

    224. Graeme says:

      Terence callachan says:
      23 December, 2017 at 9:45 am

      “Tell me again why does a country that is seeking independence from another country allow people from that other country to have a vote ?”

      Beats the hell outta me

      But if you ask the question you’re either an anti English racist or a Blood & Soil nationalist

    225. Colin Alexander says:

      I do not post under any other identity. Those who say I do or accuse me of being a unionist are lying.

      I don’t agree that you must be Scots born to be eligible to vote. I DO THINK there should be a minimum term of residence: 5 years whether Scots, Irish, Welsh, English, Canadian, EU national or whatever. But I don’t see it happening.

      As I’ve said, the arguments about English voters voting No is a waste of time.

      Also, don’t blame the English for No winning in 2014. If there is blame to be apportioned try it closer to home:

      The SNP leadership made a poor YES campaign. Their economic policies were naive. The White Paper was a stupid wish list. The Brexiteers didn’t need one.

      Indy was to be indy, but not indy. Indy but the Scots economy run by the Bank of England. Sharing the pound.

      Independent but dependent on the EU. But the EU were frigid in the warmth of welcome to a potential indy-Scotland.

      Alex Salmond for all his qualities, made some huge blunders. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP continue them. They make it all about the SNP, as do the people here.

      If it’s about the SNP, based on voting history, we will NEVER be independent, as even committed independists wouldn’t vote SNP at the last election.

      I’m a committed YES but have no intentions of giving any further support to the SNP unless they change tack.

      I’m told the SNP are the only bridge to indy. If that’s the case then that’s a bridge too far for me and many others.

      The SNP have the indyref mandate, use it while you can. It’s last chance saloon for Nicola and the current SNP set up.

    226. Angela Thomas says:

      I am English with a lot of Scottish forebears. I live in England and so could not vote in an IRef but totally understand Scots desire for independence from England. What I don’t understand is Scottish support for “Independence” in the EU. I voted Leave in the EU Ref because I can’t tolerate being ruled by another country. How can you think “Independence in the EU” is Independence?

    227. Fooling no-one Colin.

    228. Derick fae Yell says:

      Marcia says:
      22 December, 2017 at 10:14 pm
      In 2014 the holiday home and people living abroad was significant. Remember this was before Individual Voter Registration. There wasn’t even a check that names on the roll were even real people, or live permanently here.

      The log of the turnout in a normal electorate gives a class Gaussian Bell Curve. Half the polling districts have turnout above the mean and half below. The 2015 Scottish election gives this.

      Turnout in the 2014 referendum gives a curve deflected to the right. It’s off the normal distribution. What it actually shows is that a proportion of the electorate had an abnormally low degree of “connection” to their neighbours.

      To get the 2014 turnout back to the normal curve you have to remove just over 400,000 votes.

      The simplest explanation is that 400k people who don’t live in Scotland registered to vote. Mostly at parent’s houses I’d guess. And all postally

      NB THIS DOES NOT TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT WHICH WAY THESE FOLK VOTED. The lower and upper bound of the Yes vote in 2014 was 34% and 51% if all 400k voted Yes or No respectively.

      It is vital that only people whose permanent or habitual residence is in Scotland get to vote. That needs to be clearly stated.

      The methodology for the above is that in Borgesi et all, Statistical Detection of Election Irregularities

      http://m.pnas.org/content/109/41/16469.full

      The original research used French election turnout to measure how “connected” society is. French elections are very secure. Turnout is always a perfect Bell Curve

    229. David says:

      133 Rangers fans to 88 Celtic. Skewed sample?

    230. David Caledonia says:

      The News

      Lets get to the point about being a scot, forget your history lessons about we all came from germany or we are all related to the mongol hoards, i have read my history so i don’t care to be bored by anyone thinking they are teaching me something
      I live in today’s world, i am called a scot because i was born and live in scotland, the clue of who i am is in the first four letters of the word scotland ( scot ) meaning a scottish person
      Now lets go back a bit to what being a scot means, it means you where not born anywhere else, i would have loved to have been a native indian in north america, but alas i was born to late and i ofc was not born in america, i would have loved that way of life
      Now back to the real point, i am not anti/anything, i have friends all over the world, and lots of family in england, their sons and daughters are english because they where born in england, and that was because the parents went there to find work, my mothers brother lives in bedfordshire, he does not have a vote on scottish independence, and he got married in scotland, lived with my mother and father, worked with my local council, played football, and may i say he was good at kicking a bag o wind about, he and his wife decided to try and better themselves so they moved to england, where they still reside, both well over 70 now, and not in the best of health
      Both of them do not have a vote, neither of them have been able to vote in scotland on scottish issues since they moved to england over 50 years ago
      Should they not be entitled to a vote before any incomer who wants their money to go further since they retired, my uncle will die in england and will only have the option to vote for the unionist parties down there, is that fair that anyone who lives down there, can move here and still vote unionist when my uncle and his wife can’t vote for the independence movement, and btw, i have no idea what his politics are, but at a guess i would say he votes labour
      I am not against any english person moving here, but the chances are that if they have voted in england all their lives, they will vote for labour or tory, and they are unionist parties
      who are against independence, i have never claimed to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist, but i don’t have to be to work some things out, happy christmas to all my family and friends in england and elsewhere around the world

    231. Ron Mavclean says:

      @Colin Alexander 10.12am

      A courageous comment. The performance of the SNP, especially its leadership, is worthy of more consideration than its had to date.

      Problems with the SNP leadership are not new. Talking about the 1970s in “Independence or Union” Professor Devine said “It was a problem too that in Westminster the SNP leadership showed little dynamism or charisma.”

    232. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Exactly Graeme – the Edinburgh agreement set the precedent for the referendum terms and changing the electorate will be portrayed as anti-English – over and over again.

      Also it will invite other changes like a super majority of 2/3 of voters or 50% of the electorate – just like 1979 when we won – and lost.

      At 49% we are at touching distance even before we start the campaign – Brexit can only get worse so it is all to play for.

      Remember 52% is all we need for an independent Scotland. If we had got that last there would have been outrage saying it was not a large enough majority. Next time there is no way that can be used as an excuse to block it.

      Indy means Indy!

    233. Ron Maclean says:

      @Colin Alexander 10.12am

      A courageous comment. The performance of the SNP is worthy of more consideration than its had to date and that might be more profitable than blaming the English and OAPs.

      Problems with the SNP, especially its leadership are not new. Speaking about the 1970s in his “Independence or Union” Professor Devine said “It was a problem too that in Westminster the SNP leadership showed little dynamism or charisma.”

    234. Andy Anderson says:

      I found this article interesting Stu, hopefully other snippets from your poll will appear soon. Keep up the good work.

      I cannot understand the labour supporters who want indy. Surely they should give the SNP their vote now and when we are actually independent then vote labour again. Seems a no brainer to me.

    235. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “How can you think “Independence in the EU” is Independence?”

      Sigh. So you don’t think Germany is an independent country? Or France? Or Italy?

    236. The answer to the English votes. Is simple only those who are born and live in Scotland should be able to vote on the future of their country no one else

    237. Thepnr says:

      Terence callachan

      Actually your figures are incorrect
      Of the 92 people born in England
      17% did not reply

      No the 17% are those who either said Don’t Know or Would not vote, this is clearly stated in the table above.

      The 17% who did not reply will be people who are likely to vote against Scottish independence but want to stay in EU
      They are unlikely to be English people who are in favour of Scottish independence but want out of EU
      So the English people who are likely to vote against Scottish independence is about 77% of the million that live in Scotland
      770,000
      I previously thought it about 800,000 but 770,000 is close to that figure

      This is a joke right? ?Where’s your evidence for the figure of a million English born people living in Scotland? There are NOT a million English born people and in fact less than half that also many are under 16 so could not vote.

      The most recent census from 2011 gave the percentage of the population in Scotland that were born in England as 9% as is stated in the Rev’s article. The specific number from 2011 was 459,486. From that figure 37,100 were aged between 0 and 15 leaving a total 16 or over of 422,386.

      Ninety-three per cent of the people in Scotland stated they were born within the UK, a decrease of three percentage points since 2001. Eighty-three per cent of the population were born in Scotland, nine per cent in England, 0.7 per cent in Northern Ireland and 0.3 per cent in Wales.

      http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/news/census-2011-release-2a

      For full table showing breakdown by country of birth see link:

      http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/ods-analyser/jsf/tableView/tableView.xhtml

    238. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      When I saw this topic, I took a deep breath and waited this one out, expecting the somewhat predictable outbreak from the usual suspects. As proved to be the case, alas.

      The pensioner issue (which is what it really is) needs to be tackled, though. I like the proposal that has been made by several people before now (me included): we need an indy campaign on behalf of the young (whether grandkids or not) asking the elderly to emulate in their own way what their parents did in the two World Wars, ie. “grant the young the gift of their future”.

      But there’s other things to mull over as well. Here’s a couple of thoughts:

      There are “British”, funnily enough. These are the people born outwith the UK, many from former colonial outposts such as the Indian subcontinent and the Caribbean, who have since come here and naturalised. These people have every right to vote, but don’t have an obvious dog in the “Scottish vs English” contest. Their allegiance is to the UK state as a whole, and clearly from the stats, the Yes movement still has a way to go to convince more of them that an iScotland is going to be a safe and pleasant place for them to remain part of. “Blood and soil” types of argument will alienate them completely. Not a good plan.

      Secondly, there are still a large proportion of Remainers who are not sold on indy yet. Which also implies a rich opportunity for converts. Provided we don’t stupidly fumble the pass with Brexit-Lite aping of Leaverland. No real diff, no vote for us.

    239. t42 says:

      re: poll
      LibDems dont want to stay in the EU. Now isnt that a thing..

    240. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      t42 @ 16:05,

      Yes, that was another definite oddity. (Much to pick over in the fine detail!)

      I suppose most of the genuine “home rulers” have long since quit the FibDems in disgust at all the empty pretence, and all that’s left is a hollowed-out BritNat shell. But then the party does depend for its survival on English largesse from the likes of the JRRT (and Scotland in Union?), so they are the modern version of the “parcel of rogues”, I suppose.

      One of the former “acceptable faces” of the UK Establishment. Now rapidly heading up the well-known creek with a dissolving paddle. History won’t be kind to them.

    241. Thepnr says:

      The figures in the table is that of the Base Respondents weighted numbers, those born in Scotland are 82% of those polled and those born in England are 9.5% of those polled.

      This is almost exactly in line with the figures from the 2011 census of 83% and 9% respectively.

      Obvious then that Panelbase are weighting the numbers either in line with that census or something more recent. I think we can safely assume that the % population of those born in England and living in Scotland have not deviated much in 2017 than those figures from the census in 2011.

    242. louis.b.argyll says:

      What’s the problem with settled English-born/Tory types?

      Oh yes, it’s the English/Tory part, they don’t like to share this earth with underlings. They have neither the imagination nor the compassion to respect other nations unconditionally.

      In their rose-tinted, war-loving, unionist future, only when they assimilate us Scots to be more like the English communities they moved away from, will they be content.

      So they obviously haven’t thought it through.

    243. Street Andrew says:

      I’m dismayed and somewhat mystified by the expat English being so anti Independence for Scotland

      I wonder why they came here and chose to stay if they don’t like the prospect of more of the same rather than almost inevitable drift towards homogeneity bound up with England.

      They sure as hell didn’t come for the weather. If they came for the good of their health and are reliant on health services they might do well to consider their position carefully.

    244. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Always worth reading James Kelly’s take on the poll:

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/momentous-panelbase-poll-suggests.html

    245. Gary45% says:

      Sussed it, the reason the gormless wan in the picture looks well eh ?????
      Big Ben has its “Bong” back, its no Jamie Stone-d in disguise is it?
      I’ll get ma bunnet.

    246. Chick McGregor says:

      As pointed out from post election movement analysis previously the 46% for indy Labour support is simply confirmation of the numbers of pro indy Lab support who voted SNP in frustration at Blairism but have been lured back by the promise of a return to old Labour values.

    247. Antmcg says:

      I was born in England, but moved here in 1997. Have paid tax etc. ever since. Voted yes in 2014, Remain in 2016, and would vote the same way until I am in my box. Scotland is a country, always has been a country, and should be an independent country again. Not all southern born are anti Scotland, and not all are “unionists”. In the next referendum, I expect to be able to vote, not be denied through accident of birth place.

    248. K1 says:

      Quite so Antmcg…it’s a bloody non sensical argument those who suggest ‘Scottish born only’ as a means of rigging Indy 2…forgive them for they know not what pish they spout. Happy Christmas 😉

    249. Cactus says:

      Good mornin’ Antmcg, welcome and good to have you with us 🙂

      I wonders if this article poll included 16&17 year old voters?

      Hey K1 xx.

    250. Cactus says:

      And, if sixteen and seventeen year old voters were excluded from this poll, could we carry one out to see please?

      Would love to see their result.

      It may already be oor game.

      50%+

    251. Cactus says:

      Oops, missed it the first time, read the small print me, 16+ were included, that demographic figure should increase naturally anyway as the months tick tock by, with all of Scotland’s new eligible voters.

      (actual 16 – 34 year old voters)

      66% Yes
      34% No

      (polling ONLY 16 & 17 year old voters)

      80% Yes?
      20% No?



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