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Wings Over Scotland

The simpler version

Posted on January 26, 2017 by

Way back in October last year we analysed what now seems to have become the key plank of Unionist argument against independence in the wake of Brexit – the idea that because Scotland does more trade with the rest of the UK than it does with the EU, independence would be economic suicide because Scotland would be sacrificing “the UK single market” (a thing that doesn’t actually exist ) for a much smaller one.


It’s a completely idiotic position, but to be honest we didn’t do a very good job of boiling the counter-argument down to something snappy and quoteable, so let’s have another go and see if we can manage something a little better.

1. After invoking Article 50, the UK has two years to negotiate a trade deal with the rest of the EU. If it doesn’t have one in place by then, it’ll have to trade with the EU (and in fact with everyone else too) on World Trade Organisation terms, which pretty much everyone agrees would be a catastrophic outcome.

2. Therefore, one way or another there WILL be a trade deal in place between the EU and the UK by 2019. It’s likely to favour the EU, for obvious reasons, but it’ll still be better for the UK than WTO terms.

3. An independent Scotland would be in the EU. Therefore it would continue to trade with the rUK just as it does now – except that Scotland, as an EU member, would now be getting preferential terms.

The idea that the rUK – which sells considerably more to Scotland than it buys – was suddenly going to stop trading with Scotland was always mind-numbingly fatuous. It’d be like shooting yourself in the face because you had an itchy nose.

But when you remember that the UK has to agree a trade deal with the EU by 2019 or be absolutely screwed, it turns from stupidity to pure farce.

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  1. 26 01 17 11:56

    The simpler version | speymouth

  2. 26 01 17 15:46

    The simpler version - Talking Drum

  3. 26 01 17 22:51

    The simpler version | Shift manager |

289 to “The simpler version”

  1. Bruce L says:

    Nailed it.

  2. Sandy says:

    I find their argument pretty inconsistent.

    They believe that for the UK, turning its back on a close trading relationship with the EU members will be a resounding success, because that’s ‘taking back control’, the UK will be able to sell innovative jams around the world and, well Brexit means Brexit.

    However, for Scotland to do exactly the same thing to the UK ‘single market’ will be a total disaster for Scotland.

    Just another variant on the ‘too wee, too poor, too stupid’ position, before you even get into the points about why would rUK do this to an independent Scotland, could they do it if Scotland remains in the EU and why would you want to be bullied into remaining in a relationship with a country that threatens your trade to maintain control.

  3. Macart says:

    Pretty much. 🙂

    Neatly done Rev.

  4. Desimond says:

    I’ve actually had people ask me “What about the trade with England though!” as though as soon as Independence is called all business transactions cease.

    All adds to the fear and resistance to change of course.

    Mundell on the telly the last few nights doing his very best “Trust in Theresa” patter backed by Scots Tory leader in Wainting Adamski. Make you sick to see such coverage.

    All we need now is the Scottish Government Budget to collapse and then the real knives can come out.

  5. Arbroath1320 says:

    We’re no gonna trade with Scotland cause they will be in the E.U. and we wilnae. It’s no fair. So to prove a point we’re gonna cut oor nose aff tae spite oor face and then we’ll see who’s laughing on the ither side o their face!

  6. heedtracker says:

    Economic reality meets unionist propaganda. Its like a bug hitting a windscreen.

  7. Stoker says:

    At the risk of sounding repetitive that has A5 leaflet all over it.


    It’ll take up another lovely page or two in WBB2.

    Oh, this is getting exciting, they’re crapping themselves because they know that we know their games and we’ve still got all the facts.

    Bring it on, as they say!

  8. R-type Grunt says:

    Ah but, Spain says..

  9. Ian McCubbin says:

    Succinct get it out on twitter.

  10. Stoker says:

    heedtracker wrote on 26 January, 2017 at 11:24 am:

    “Economic reality meets unionist propaganda. Its like a bug hitting a windscreen.”

    Aye, and the last thing to go through its mind is its arse.

  11. Clydebuilt says:

    O / T….. The child health scare is based on a report by the RCPHP. … From the reports site.
    Mortality rates for the only age group that allows a direct comparison between England and Scotland ie. the one to nine group In 2014 England had 761 mortalities, Scotland had 49. ….. By proportion if Scotland had the same mortality rate as England we would have seen approximately 64 deaths.

  12. Capella says:

    It makes “Independence in Europe” essential. Guaranteed trading base of 500 million and a BREXIT treaty in place regulating the terms. It’ll be interesting to hear the Unionist argument against it.

  13. farrochie says:

    Article 50

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.

    I don’t think UK has 2 years to “negotiate a trade deal”. Following notification of intention to leave, the Union and the UK are to agree a framework for the future relationship.

    Actual trade negotiation between UK and EU will come later.

  14. Steph Daly says:

    If you take the Westminster Governments terms with the French for the new Hinkley Point Power Station, it’s glaringly obvious that rUK are absolutely clueless about ‘deal making.’

  15. Dan Huil says:

    Pithy and pertinent stuff from the Rev – as always.

  16. alexicon says:

    I’ve been posting that link from the bbc, all over the Herald comment threads on this subject.

    Glad you picked up on it here Rev ;-))

    Another few links to keep handy for the usual unionist attack are; in particular items 6.3 and 7.3.3 This link is a few years old, but I’m sure most of it is relevant today.
    It clearly states, several times, that these figures are just estimates and caution should be exercised.

    I did see a graph on the Rev’s twitter feed about rUK’s exports to Scotland, it was from but for the life of me I cannot find that same graph on that site.

    Hope the links help and I would advise to keep as many handy as you can for future reference.

  17. Portjim says:

    “Like a bug hitting the windscreen” – yes, only in this case it’s economic reality that has no chance! The yoons have no interest in facts or truth, and their press / tv make sure that awkward details like this never see the light of day, or at the very least are twisted 180 degrees – see WoS piece on misrepresentation of Alec Salmond yesterday!

  18. Flower of Scotland says:

    This is going to be used against us in Indy ref2, just like currency was in 2014.

    So thanks Rev. and read, inwardly digest and get your answers ready YES politicians!

  19. heedtracker says:

    Stoker says:

    Aye, and the last thing to go through its mind is its arse.

    We know what the windscreen scraper is too.

    Its clearly one of Project Fear 2’s big ones now. Vote NO or England will not trade with Scotland. The others are pretty obvious.

    Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h
    This is Scotland after 10 years of the SNP and 7 years of the Tories in Government. Utterly shameful.

    Its the BBC child poverty in Scotland report. Its a massive attack of the yoons.

  20. mike cassidy says:

    These appear to be the most recent figures for Scotland exporting

    Anyone got a link for the current importing figures – especially rUk to Scotland

  21. Cuilean says:

    Plus are the Yoons really predicting a Berlin Airlift blockade of Scotland? In no other country but dystopian yoon Scotland would this garbage gain any traction whatsoever. It’s so daft, no journo would mention it for fear of losing all credibility as a sane person, never mind a professional journo.

    For the youngsters among us the Berlin Airlift was a blockade of trade by Joe Stalin on West Berlin, from June 1948 to May 1949. Stalin blocked overland access to West Berlin.Stalin did not want W Berlin to use the new German mark currency.

    The West organized the Berlin airlift to carry supplies to the people of West Berlin.

    Stalin’s bluff was called and he did not disrupt the airlift for fear this might lead to war and he lifted his blockade.

    Are the Yoons suggesting the rUK will do this to Scotland if we dare to reject their right wing lunacy?

    They really have gone stark, raving mad!

  22. manandboy says:

    Douglas Fraser, writing on the bbc website linked to by Stu above, says:-
    ” It’s in the interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK to keep trading goods and services, with or without independence.”
    ” Oil and gas exports could be expected to put Scotland into surplus.”

  23. DerekM says:

    Aye that covers it Rev 🙂

    Bring on the preferential terms 🙂

  24. Dr Jim says:

    But dog food salesman says and expert arsehole says and professoor dick head says and they all say it on the telly I’ve heard them

    It goes like this whatever we say we’re wrong no matter who our experts are, our experts aren’t as expert as theirs coz the telly people employ those experts and they’re the best at expert employing

  25. JLT says:

    Oh …these next few months are going to be fun. A PM sucking up the world’s biggest bigot while the rest of the world steers clear of a man whom they hold in utter contempt. Compound that with a delusional Parliament who believes that we’re going back to the good old days of the 1890’s, in which the world is just dying to buy our goods while we them sternly to ‘eff off if they so much as put one foot on good old Blighty …while over-riding all of this, is the perception that the United Kingdom as an entity has never been stronger and that deep down the home nations are getting on like a house of fire.

    Yep, pass the popcorn and turn up the volume please.

  26. Cuilean says:

    It’s not as if an iScot govt woill have no bargaining chips either to play against rUK hardball tactics!

    If rUK tried to ruin an iScotland’s economy, an iScot govt would simply tell rUK to get their nukes & subs out of Coulport & Faslane NOW!

  27. Cuilean says:

    And we thought 2017 was going to be dull!

  28. Meindevon says:

    Yep, spot on.

    What I see down here in DDD is that although we all know the EU is more than likely to welcome Scotland with open arms, nobody here believes it.

    All I get is Scotland is not in the EU now the UK is, back of the queue, you’ll have to have the Euro, etc.. On the bright side, it’s not people down here that have to be convinced.

    I really hope that once A50 is invoked the EU and things start unravelling and the SG set a date for Indy ref 2 that the EU makes a formal announcement that Scotland will be welcomed with open arms once indendence is secured.

    Any thoughts on that actually happening?

  29. Kininvie says:


    Drawing up a framework for future relationship is part of the A50 process, and the withdrawing state does it unilaterally – so it’s not part of a negotiation. Lord Kerr was very clear about what he thought the UK govt should be putting in it – close co-operation on all fronts.

    When A50 arrangements over financial liabilities etc are complete and negotiations begin, the EU will ‘take account’ of the framework drawn up by the UK.

    Of course, once the £60bn bill is presented, there will be a roar of outrage from the Kippers and demands that Britain doesn’t pay. But TM doesn’t have a lot of choice, because she can’t embark on serious talks until it has been settled. So that will be fun to watch.

    And if the batshit Kippers manage to persuade the Govt to ‘just leave’, then the UK will be perceived as not paying its debts – which will further tank its credit rating.

  30. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Off-topic I know, but, I have just read a wonderful debunking, by Professor John Robertson, on his ‘thought control scotland’ website, of the BBC’s latest bit of selective cherry-picking of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health review of childrens’ health and well-being.

    Further ammunition for the Indeendence Movement in trying to counteract BBC bias and pro-union propaganda.

  31. Stoker says:

    Cuilean wrote on 26 January, 2017 at 11:49 am:

    “Plus are the Yoons really predicting a Berlin Airlift blockade of Scotland?”

    Aye! Have you not heard? Coz thur gaunny blaw up oor runways.

  32. The Rough Bounds. says:

    Apparently Theresa May is going to present Donald Trump with a Scottish quaich.

    Do you think she will be able to pronounce it properly? Or say what it means? Or give its Gaelic derivation? It’s ‘Cuach’ in case anyone is interested. (It just means a bowl or drinking cup).

    I’m just waiting for someone to say ‘Quake’ then I’ll put my head in my hands.

  33. manandboy says:

    Let us not forget what the root cause of this catastrophic mess called Brexit is, viz., that David Cameron and his Tory Government recklessly gambled the future wellbeing of 65 million people, just so as to get Nigel Farage and his own EU-hating Tory MP’s off his back. Like betting a £trillion to win a penny.

    Never pass up any opportunity to ram this piece of reckless Casino-gambling Tory rule down the throats of Unionists.

  34. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah, that’s good. Here’s another, for goods – half the reciprocal exports.

    Google Scotland, click on map, zoom out twice, centre the UK and consider transportation, cost of diesel for big lorries, existing distribution networks for the volume of trade, and add on ferry costs unless all on the mainland. Consider waiting times for ferries, compared to a run up and down the M6/M74, and setting up new distribution centres for couriers. It’s a little thing called “geography”.


  35. icyspark says:

    If there was a less than favourable trade deal, then English companies who export to Europe will certainly think about creating a base in Scotland to get round paying levies etc.

    Same with foreign investment too. Would you rather set up shop with all the uncertainty in England, or the certainty of free trade across Europe from Scotland?

    Watch Scottish exports rise sharply in the first few years of Independence in Europe.

  36. Clootie says:

    …however unionists have a track record for ignoring facts in favour of scare stories.

    They will continue the mantra “…Scotland would be doomed”. We all know it’s crap but of course WE are not the target audience for their scare stories.

  37. Giesabrek says:

    KISS – Keep It Simple Stu…
    Keep asking the Yoons these 2 questions till you get answers:
    1. Will all trade between indy Scotland and rUK stop?
    2. Who will stop all trade between indy Scotland and rUK?

    These questions will force them to admit either trade will continue or rUK will petulantly try to retaliate against Scotland by instigating trade sanctions, which I believe would be illegal under WTO and EU rules.

  38. Calum McKay says:

    ‘ it would continue to trade with the rUK just as it does now – except that Scotland, as an EU member, would now be getting preferential terms.’

    This is the key point needed to be made by independence movement, Ireland will. a beneficiary of this event, exta money for doing nothing!

    What I suspect the unionists are implying is that England will not buy Scottish goods if independence is secured, in other words an implied threat and bullying!

    uk is looking increasingly desperate, Scotland and brexit are but two, a third is Mrs May cravingly going to the US to kiss trump’s butt, what’s more, she proud to to it and believes she is special. Only yesteday trump said he would bring back torture and impose a huge bill on his impoverished meifhbour to build a wall!

    As has been said so often about the shambles that is the uk, ‘you could not make this stuff up!’

  39. DerekM says:

    If they do go down the route of going in the huff and not trading with us all it will do is kill off lots of English small businesses as the trade from the RoI will move to Scotland and trade through us into Europe instead of England.

    Though it would mean building a couple of mahoosive shipping ports and getting the boys on the clyde back building ships that have a purpose outside war but i think we can handle that.

  40. Luigi says:

    O/T FM’s QT – poor Ruthie and Kez getting spanked again.

    Every time they loose the argument at QT, Ruthie and Kez resort to independence. Hearing them getting trashed every week, there always comes an “indepedence” mention. It’s very telling. 🙂

    Oh no, here comes wee Willie, starting off with “independence”. No hesitation there, Willie. 🙂

    These yoons are really obsessed with independence. 🙂

  41. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Oh Dear,Oh Dear, Oh Dear!! That nasty big bully Nicola Sturgeon has just skelped Ruth Davidson’s and Kezia Dugdale’s erses yet again.

    How long must this public burtality continue?

    Then she goes and boots puir we Wullie Rennie in the conjones – snow fair so it isnae.

    Then, we have the Three Stooges accusing the SNP of obsessing on Independence, when they keep bringing it up.

    What planet are these numpties on?

  42. Luigi says:

    The three yoon parties competing for the hard yoon vote. This can’t end well for two of them. 🙂

  43. Jack Murphy says:

    Socrates MacSporran said at 12:06 pm
    “Off-topic I know, but, I have just read a wonderful debunking, by Professor John Robertson, on his ‘thought control scotland’ website, of the BBC’s latest bit of selective cherry-picking of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health review of childrens’ health and well-being…….”

    Is this the article Socrates? :-

    “….. I’m not going to argue with the first two points but I am going to argue about the third. It’s a lie. I can find nowhere in any part of the RCPCH documents any ‘accusation’ against the Scottish government……”

  44. Luigi says:

    The rev’s analysis is brilliant, a sorely needed simplification. However, for the low/no info voters, a short snapping one-liner is really needed.

    “Scotland’s trade with rUK is four times that of the EU”

    may well be BS, but you have to admit, it is a snappy one-liner that will resonate with many voters. Activists will no doubt hear it regurgitated on the doorstep. We need something equally snappy in reply.

  45. liz says:

    There have been a couple of grudgingly positive comments re trade by both Douglas Fraser and Andrew Neil.

    Naturally there is a but in there which is trade from Scotland is good but is declining.
    This is setting the groundwork for Scottish exports to EU in decline but increasing to UK.

    The BritNats always control the economic argument and we spend our time, discrediting their info.
    It will be the same with next indyref.

    Surely any business person should be able to see that a customer base of 500 mil has more potential than 60 mil.

  46. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s another one for goods.

    Warehousing and storage are expensive, and most businesses have cut the storage and increased the production or sales space percentage. Quarterly profit declarations also mean having too much stock is a bad idea. As a result we’ve become more and more JIT – Just In Time. In Scotland (except H&I), order by 4pm, have it next day, even from England / Wales. Same vice versa. Add on a ferry trip and add on 24 hours. Supply chain management is vital to businesses.

  47. bobajock says:

    I have been saying this (ok, tweeting like a sparrow) since the actual EUref.

    I will keep saying this until the thick mindless BritNat zombies accept its truth, its fact, its reality.

  48. liz says:

    Forgot to mention, we send MW of energy to England on a daily basis.
    This energy is subsidised cos we pay higher connection charges.

    England will be hard pushed not to want this energy and if we are indy, they will need to pay the going rate and unfair connection charges are banned by the EU, so win, win for us.

    These values can be found on the real time web which another winger posted a while ago.

  49. manandboy says:

    OT +apologies to the Rev.
    Writing in IndyRef2, P A Bell says:-

    “Unionists are defined by the fact that they are happy to accept a situation in which the government Scotland elected is overruled by a government Scotland rejected.
    It is an essential part of British nationalist ideology that democracy is only to be respected when it serves the interests of the British state.”

    There used to be a democratic deficit in Scotland. Now, democracy in Scotland has effectively been wiped out completely. The Sewell Convention pretended for a while to offer a sliver of democracy to Scotland, but that is now gone courtesy of the English Supreme Court.
    That a matter of such extreme and dangerous consequences for the entire nation of Scotland, should be regarded as not worthy of even a consultation, far less a veto from an equal partner, is the real measure of the Union and of the boundless contempt of the Unionist Establishment for Scotland.

    The Union is dead. The marriage is over. Only the messy and acrimonious divorce settlement is left to be completed.

    Time to go our own way.

  50. ClanDonald says:

    It works both ways. 99% of Scotland’s high street is English companies. Are they seriously telling us that they’ll be happy if they’re forced to shut up shop on day 1 of Indy? The FTSE 100 would collapse if they had to cease trading with us.

    And what about all the English companies that have a presence in Ireland? I’m sure the Tory Lord owner of Next will be delighted to hear that Theresa May will be forcing him to shut all his branches in Ireland?

  51. Bob MACK says:

    So, they would in effect be boycotting a member of the EU ?. I don’t think that would go down well at all.

  52. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Jack Murphy @ 12.28pm

    Yes Jack, that’s the one; the link is:

  53. yerkitbreeks says:

    Don’t disagree with your piece, but would like to observe that with today’s potential global changes, it may be premature to assume WTO rules etc. two years up the road.

    I say this since European politics may lead to a modified offer if the right wing populist parties do well in this year’s elections – aside from the spoiling effects of the new Trump regime.

  54. People Carrier says:

    Given the previous and ongoing discussions regarding the constituent elements of the United Kingdom, would it be better to stop referring to England/Wales (NI) as rUK? Wales and NI are part of the Kingdom of England, is that correct? If correct, IMO, by referring to EWN as rUK, it imparts a certain psychological entitlement over the existing UK (a thought bolstered by the Supreme Court decision?). Why don’t we just refer to it as the Kingdom of England (KE), would that be factually incorrect?

  55. Dave Hansell says:

    “Compound that with a delusional Parliament who believes that we’re going back to the good old days of the 1890’s, in which the world is just dying to buy our goods while we them”

    Not sure that’s going back far enough in time JLT, or that Parliament in Westminster is the ultimate problem here. Parliament seems merely to have traditionally been the political fig leaf for what (even when no label existed for it) we tend to regard as the ‘Establishment.’ A facade of democracy within a system run and controlled by a feudal mindset.

    The economic, social and political plan seems to go beyond rolling back the post WW2 settlement and consensus to a pre – now repackaged as post- industrial rentier economy with feudal social relations. This lot , whether blue, red, orange or purple tories have always been keen on a post industrial economy

    the problem has always been that the feudal lords and ladies have always needed the minds and bodies of the oiks and the plebs to maintain them at the level they think they are uniquely entitled. AI automation may offer a work around for them, leaving the majority surplus to requirements.

    “If rUK tried to ruin an iScotland’s economy, an iScot govt would simply tell rUK to get their nukes & subs out of Coulport & Faslane NOW!”

    Just an observation Cuilean, possession is nine tenths of the law.

  56. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz: “Surely any business person should be able to see that a customer base of 500 mil has more potential than 60 mil.

    That seems to be the SNP argument, and it’s not one I’m at all comfortable with, as it seems to accept a decline of the rUK market. I don’t, for the 2 reasons I posted above, but there are more, e.g.

    3). Time is money in business

    4). Service – if you have a good supplier, why change? I full intend keeping my good suppliers in England and Wales after Independence, unless and until a better one gets going in Scotland, and even then, perhaps not, I’d suss it out carefully. Business is business, politics go shoot.

    5). Language – that would be the English language.

    My argument would be we keep the rUK market, like duh, and don’t lose the EU one if we stay in the single market. Plus of course we pick up some of the rUK’s EU market 🙂 Yes please.

  57. Proud Cybernat says:

    In a nutshell…

  58. yesindyref2 says:

    @People Carrier
    For me rUK is OK. For Scotland the rest is the rUK, for Wales the rest is rUK, for NI – and England too. One name fits all, and there’s then no implied insult to other parts of the UK / rUK.

    KE – Kingdom of England is an insult to the Welsh and Northern Irish, just as much as it would be to us if they used it.

  59. Richard MacKinnon says:

    I just watched FM questions. What an embarassment Holyrood is. Every one of them are taking part in a massive con trick. They should be ashamed of themselves, especially the SNP, doing the Tories dirty work. They all know it but they cant admit to it. Eventually the rest, will come to realise what it is. An expensive joke.

  60. orri says:

    There are basic reasons for buying anything. Quality and cost.

    Scotland is on the same island as England and Wales. The EU is not. Simply put for the not to thick that means that as far as transport goes Scotland will always have an advantage over the rest of the EU.

    There’s also availability and need to be considered. Post independence if the rUK still needs food and other materials, including services, it can’t source locally it will have to look elsewhere.

    The imposition of tariffs is where it all gets tricky but only when they impact on sales. That’s where all the contrast and compare regarding “exports” to the rUK to and from Scotland has some validity. However it’s a two way street so if the rUK does go out of it’s way to impose punitive tariffs in order to somehow damage Scottish imports, if not outright ban them, then Scotland might simply do the same as regards their imports to us.

    All things considered the losers as far as imports are concerned are the general public if prices go up as a result. Potentially local producers might benefit through being more competitive. The losers as far as exports are concerned as the exporters with knock on to their employees and their communities. Basically the cost of trading with the EU is moved from being shared to more focused on those doing the actual trading. However the impact on the economy as a whole should also be taken in to account as reduced revenue from trade might result bringing down revenue which might then have to be raised elsewhere. There’s a distinct possibility that an net saving, once rebates are accounted for, in the UKs membership of the EU will be obliterated by that lost revenue.

  61. Arbroath1320 says:

    Would you like to explain in what way exactly the SNP is doing the Tories “dirty work” Richard?

    I’m just curious you understand. 😉

  62. Peter A Bell says:

    Actually, there won’t be a trade deal with the EU in place by 2019. The EU will not begin trade negotiations until after the UK has left. Trade negotiations will only start in 2019. and they could take years – possibly decades.

    It is possible, of course, that the EU might offer some interim arrangement. But it’s difficult to see how that could involve terms that would be politically acceptable to a British Government desperately trying to pretend that UK/rUK is better off out of the EU.

    WTO rules will be the inevitable fall-back position. But the tale then will be that the nasty EU forced brave little England out of the single market. It’s all the fault of Johnny Foreigner. And, of course, the SNP.

    None of this is about the British Government’s ability to secure favourable trade deals. It is entirely about their ability to spin outcomes over which they have no control and only minimal influence. This is political posturing on a scale both grand and grotesque.

  63. manandboy says:

    Ruthie, Kez and Wee Willie Winky, are always banging on about Independence, both inside and out the Scottish Parliament. But there is no need for us to bang on about them banging on, as if them banging on was a mystery to us.
    The explanation is simple. Unionists FEAR Independence more than anything. The very mention of the word sends shivers of fear down their spines.
    The British Establishment’s never-ending goal is to control the population’s voting habits, and there is NO better way than to keep the electorate afraid. When the people are afraid they will almost always seek refuge in the STATUS QUO – and vote for the Government.
    Ruthie, Kezia and Willie Rennie, as the cheerleaders in Scotland for the Union, are trained, instructed and compelled to talk about Independence every time they appear in public. It’s all part of the Unionist campaign of permanent propaganda. Three Talking Dolls in Holyrood, and on the BBC – what more could anyone ask for?

  64. I just wish HQ was more proactive and hammer such messages home to the people of Scotland rather saying little ornothing

  65. Fred says:

    So I’ll still be able to get my “Bath Olivers” then?

    Anent the plan to spend £4 billion on the Palace of Westminster, I was astonished to read in todays National that a SNP MP is in favour of a full-decant & urging the government to get on with it! I, perhaps mistakenly, assumed that Scotland’s MP’s were elected to get us to fuck out of that place, not to assist in its preservation! Mebbes some are just getting too comfortable, career-wise, with their feet under the Westminster table?

  66. Gail Hughes says:

    Presumably the reason Scotland sends goods to other parts of the UK is because there is a demand for them. That demand won’t cease with either Brexit or Independence. If there are trade barriers as a result of Scotland being part of the EU single market and rUK not then those same barriers will apply equally to the rest of the EU. They will also apply to all the other countries the rUK will no longer have trade deals with as those deals arise from the UK’s membership.

    The UK will not have an alternative source for the goods it currently sources from Scotland that will not be subject to the same trade tariffs or costs that would apply to Scotland.

    On the other hand, the greater value of trade going the other way, from rUK to Scotland would be put at risk by any trade barriers which might arise, as Scotland within the EU would have the option to source goods from within the single market and those countries with which the EU has preferential trade deals.

    The trade at risk from Independence is not what Scotland sells to rUK, it is what they sell to us.

  67. Admiral says:

    Forgot to mention, we send MW of energy to England on a daily basis.
    This energy is subsidised cos we pay higher connection charges.

    England will be hard pushed not to want this energy”

    There’s a wheen of basic raw materials that Scotland produces in surplus which England doesn’t have the capacity to produce and needs – food and drink, energy (as you say), water, not to mention the resource of a highly educated population and the R&D carried out at Scottish Universities.

  68. Admiral says:

    I’ve said this on the previous thread and I’ll say it here. The great “global” trading nation can hardly go round the globe begging for trade deals with all and sundry if at the same time, on this small, shared island, it acts in a parochial and hostile manner by refusing to trade with its immediate neighbour.

    It doesn’t actually show willing to be a good, trustworthy and enthusiastic trading partner.

  69. Proud Cybernat says:


    The President can’t help it…

  70. Murray McCallum says:

    An independent Scotland inside the EU would have an economic advantage over rUK. It would also have an ongoing say over the rules that rUK would have to comply with in order to trade with the EU.

    It is this economic advantage and element of ongoing control that scares the crap out of the UKers.

  71. Meg merrilees says:

    O/T – on soapbox!

    Once again I take my hat off to Nicola.

    It’s so depressing listening to the petty point scoring and whingeing in our place of Government.
    These adults are elected as supposedly responsible, to represent our country and form a team to try and progress through really difficult times.

    I realise there is a time and place for other discussions of some of the ‘big’ issues facing Scotland today – Brexit, Trident, Status as a nation and the very future of Holyrood, USA to leave the UN,


    this sham of FMQ’s is a media gift, – very few truly genuine questions.

    TV shows the faces of sham questioners expressing credulity (does that happen PMQ’s at WM?) when their statement is dismissed for the lie that it is; they use phrases like ‘surely the FM will apologise, etc to create the myth that Nicola is arrogant and they repeatedly use phrases like ‘after 10 years of government’ in a derogatory way.
    t(Ruthless) as predicted didn’t even last 8 minutes without mentioning the Indy word- (‘say it often enough people will remember’ technique)

    The truth is that after 10 years in Government, the SNP is still the party of choice of the Scottish people and it can hold its head up high when tackling the constant lies relentlessly bombarding it.

    What a disgusting situation when one of the finest politicians we have is constantly heckled, jeered and shown such disrespect by people who do not possess a fraction of her leadership. What an example to present to the youth of the country.
    Tavish Scott – smirking, Jackson Carlaw -smirking, Anas Sarwar – smirking – I could go on but I won’t.

    Yes, it gives Nicola the chance to shine but gie the lassie a break!

    Seriously, sickened by their parochial mentality. Do they realise the effect it is having on people- driving us towards the only party that cares about Scotland?

    So, I’ll fasten on my trainers and get out on the campaign trail for the SNP Council Elections and do my bit, the only way I can, to get these wastrels and charlatans silenced.

    More power to Nicola.

  72. heedtracker says:

    Mebbes some are just getting too comfortable, career-wise, with their feet under the Westminster table?”

    Give it up Fred. Its only been 18 months now since 56 SNP MP’s were elected, 56 vs 600+, a lot of the 600 deeply weird hard core con too. Sometimes I wonder about you Fred 😀

    Unless you think they’re going to start a revolution in your head…

  73. yesindyref2 says:

    @Richard MacKinnon
    Serious question – would you abolish Holyrood completely?

  74. People Carrier says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    26 January, 2017 at 12:49 pm
    @People Carrier

    Understand not wanting to insult Wales or NI, but they are a part of the Kingdom of England? I’m increasingly frustrated by the implication that rUK is the ‘real’ part of the UK. This usage, IMO, does the dirty work for Westminster by putting Scottish interests on the psychological back foot. The UK dies when Scotland leaves, there is no residual state, there are two separate states. I just get the feeling that we need to win the psychological argument as much as the financial, economic issues etc. Cultural cringe and all that.

  75. Robert Peffers says:

    @Arbroath1320 says: 26 January, 2017 at 11:23 am:

    “We’re no gonna trade with Scotland cause they will be in the E.U. and we wilnae. It’s no fair. So to prove a point we’re gonna cut oor nose aff tae spite oor face and then we’ll see who’s laughing on the ither side o their face!”

    Will not they find themselves with a wee bit of a problem, Arbroth1320?

    If they want to judge who is laughing on, “the ither side o thir face”, how can they judge which side of their face they are laughing with when they have just cut off the only recognisable feature that separates the two sides of their face?

  76. heedtracker says:

    Serious question – would you abolish Holyrood completely?

    In UKOK heartbeat. Its the whole driver behind everything Scotland. If yoon culture gets back, its going to be like the Keystone kops, racing around trying to shut it all down, for our own good you see.

  77. liz says:

    @indyref2 That’s not what I’m suggesting.

    I’m trying to find a short way of saying our exports to the EU should not be smaller that to the UK, it makes no sense.

    By all means continue with the same arrangement but there is huge potential to increase exports to the EU.

    I read somewhere that there was an inquiry to a British embassy abroad asking for British companies to trade with and the embassy only sent info on companies in England.

  78. David says:

    It looks like BBC news restarted operation fear independence. Why are we paying for parcial media? Can any one please explain

  79. Colin.ah says:

    Jackie Burd said on the news last night.

    “Scotland exports £42 billion to rUK compared to £19 billion to the EU which puts the question of independence in doubt”

    The BBC propaganda arm of the union slips in to a higher gear but at least we know what their main scare story will be this time.

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @R-type Grunt says: 26 January, 2017 at 11:30 am:

    “Ah but, Spain says..”

    Thing is, R-type, that Spain has never said any such thing. Quite the reverse in fact. Who did claim that Spain said that was the then President of the EC. (not of the EU), and is not even Spanish.

    “José Manuel Durão Barroso”, is a Portuguese politician who is now the current non-executive chairman at Goldman Sachs International. His present employer tells you all you needs know.

  81. heedtracker says:

    Colin.ah says:
    26 January, 2017 at 1:30 pm
    Jackie Burd said on the news last night.

    “Scotland exports £42 billion to rUK compared to £19 billion to the EU which puts the question of independence in doubt”

    It puts their jobs for life in doubt, the whole Pacific Quay crew. Quite an incentive to ensure the UKOK ” message” is got out there.

  82. yesindyref2 says:

    Next poll, could there be a question to see how many would want to abolish the Scottish Parliament, Government and Holyrood? And then a secondary question for them alone, which way would they vote if it’s the only option, Independence or staying in the UK? THAT secondary question has never been asked as far as I know.

    Yes, the posters we see on MSM down south would get rid of Holyrood, the pretendy parliament. But it seems to me that there’s perhaps more now in Scotland as well. ScotCen when they asked the question had values from 10% down to 5%, back up to 8%, but haven’t done it for a couple of years. It wouldn’t surprise me too much if it’s higher than 10% now, and these are people the YES movement aren’t targetting at all.

  83. HeehawBaws says:

    McDougall, the Hoth etc all like to make tweet after tweet implying all trade will have to stop and then they deny anyone ever actually said that.

  84. Dan Huil says:

    If it wisnae obvious afore it is noo: the bbc is the main enemy of Scotland. Davidson, Dugdale and the other ane are easily out-classed and out-debated by Nicola Sturgeon but the bbc can spout any auld anti-Scottish BS without being held to account. Well, almost, since all us can boycott the bbc in all its rancid forms and refuse to pay the bbc tax.

    I believe, however, that as the bbc’s blatant anti-Scottish bias increases, and it will increase, the more people in Scotland will see what the bbc is: a rancid britnat desease which must be eradicated from all of Scotland’s households.

  85. laukat says:

    Good article. I wonder if another angle is to add a question that says ‘if you are suggesting that rUK leaves the EU and trades on WTO that you are either showing a lack of faith in the Brexit negotiating team (David Davis and Mrs May)or telling us that we are about to fall off a financial cliff edge?’

    Either answer suggests Independence is the only way forward

  86. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:

    Its a great point. should be out there really selling Holyrood as hard as the tories sell Westminster. Just copy UK gov propaganda, without the media ofcourse.

    Billboards are great thing, gets around the press and beeb creep show.

    Look at how the press modulate their SNP bad fury. Its not relentless front page banner headline rage every single day, usually two days a week, all week if they’re extremely agitated.

    Sunday’s their special SNP bad fury day now. SNP bad is everyday now BBC Scotland wise but they have no commercial concerns. And they’re already a clear opponent to us all and a laughing stock to half of Scotland at least.

    Copy your enemy, sorry, be influenced by them and get better than them.

    “What has YOUR ever done for you:D”

  87. Derek says:

    There’s a basic assumption in the argument about trade with rUK that says we need to be part of the UK in order to trade with it. Of course we don’t. It’s ridiculous. You don’t actually have to be governed by another country in order to do trade with that country.

  88. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    But where has been reason in Unionist arguments in the recent past?

    That is just a symptom of how badly we are governed by the incompetents of Westminster village.

    One just needs to watch the Thick of It to understand Brexit and the shit we are in.

  89. Just heard on the news that the UK,s biggest export is Scotch Whiskey. Mmmmmm I wonder why that,s why they don,t want us to get independence

  90. Caledonian says:

    Excellent concise summing up of the situation that we face.

    I still think that “ceasing all trade with rUK” will be the main attack from the Unionists – no matter how ridiculous it is……the majority of MSM readers / viewers will swallow it up if not educated in it’s idiocy.

  91. Andrew Morton says:

    Never underestimate the power of slogans, however witless.

    ‘Take back control!’

    ‘Make America great!’

    ‘UK Single Market!’

    As Martin Luther said, ‘Faith tramples reason underfoot’

    We saw in the EU referendum that a well reasoned argument is powerless against a slogan which speaks to people’s deepest hopes and fears. What’s needed is an even more powerful message.

    Whatever that might be it should encapsulate the reason(s) that people are turning from No to Yes as a result of Brexit.

  92. ScottishPsyche says:

    We are seeing the dividing lines mapped out now. EU or UK will be touted as if one excludes the other. If you choose EU what do you think you will be portrayed as by the Unionists?

    Daily Record has shown its true colours as well. Did anyone really think they were going to change? The latest wheeze is to get the FM to write a column, then get a yoonsplainer to diss it. The person in question has been begging for the SNP to engage formally with him and the DR have facilitated an indirect route.

    Whatever the SNP do, they must not ever give this person’s Mickey Mouse ‘economics’ any credence.

  93. heedtracker says:

    Andrew Morton says:
    26 January, 2017 at 2:01 pm
    Never underestimate the power of slogans

    “For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
    It’s coming yet for a’ that,
    That Man to Man, the world o’er,
    Shall brothers be for a’ that”

    Its coming yet.

  94. Scott Shaw says:

    Did anyone else notice there was no question from the Greens today at FMQ? I don’t even remember seeing them.

  95. Stuart says:

    When you look at articles like this one, you wonder exactly how long Westminster has been hiding Scotland’s actual trade position.

  96. Ros says:

    There’s a flaw in the argument – the UK government have been regularly making utterly stupid decisions for a while…

  97. heedtracker says:

    Ros says:
    26 January, 2017 at 2:08 pm
    There’s a flaw in the argument – the UK government have been regularly making utterly stupid decisions for a while…

    Presented as triumphs.

  98. Robert Peffers says:

    @mike cassidy says: 26 January, 2017 at 11:49 am:

    ” … Anyone got a link for the current importing figures – especially rUk to Scotland.”

    Why bother, mike? The truth is that not only is it a spurious argument the figures quoted are deliberately distorted.

    The Rev Stu’s argument above demolishes the argument but the way the UK, (de facto parliament of England), Government’s accounting methods and statistical gathering is, to say the least, “creative”.

    Think of these true fact that have already been shown here on Wings.

    Much of what Scotland is credited to be exporting to England is actually being transported from Scotland to England en-route to destinations throughout the entire World. That means that the true figures not only detract from Scotland but add to those of England. If there was a split of the United Kingdom then it would actually be a double gain for Scotland and a double whammy for, (not the UK), but for England. (There can be no UK without Scotland).

    Perhaps the best known example of this is, “Scotch”, Whisky and Gin. No one can legally produce, “Scotch”, except in Scotland and it is also a known fact that Scottish distillers produce 70% of the United Kingdom’s Gin. The biggest producers of both Scotch & Gin are a London registered company called, “Diageo plc.” :-

    Diageo PLC exports most of its Scottish produced products from English ports/airports and thus most of their stuff is accounted by the UK, (de facto parliament of England), as English Exports.

    However, it also accounted them as having been imported into England from Scotland and then exported on by England.

    Their quoted figures, to back up their already otherwise discredited arguments, are total, (watery), mince.

    Now multiply those Diageo plc figures by such things as Aberdeen Angus Beef, farmed Scottish Salmon and our other Scottish produced things like Soft Fruit, Engineering and Pharmaceuticals and the sheer size of the deception becomes clear.

    Remember too that Westminster has been actively deliberately running down Scottish ports and airports for many decades and the sheer size of their deceptions will begin to dawn upon you.

  99. Andrew McLean says:

    Jackie Burd said on the news last night.

    “Scotland exports £42 billion to rUK compared to £19 billion to the EU which puts the question of independence in doubt”

    However the actual statistical breakdown has this “Exports to the rest of the UK rely more heavily on the service sector than international exports as more than half (55%) of the rest of the UK exports are services compared to 38% of international exports”.

    And look at what Makes up this this category!

    “Includes Agriculture, Forestry & Fishing, Mining, Quarrying & Extraction of Petroleum. Excludes the value of oil & gas extracted from the UK Continental Shelf. but includes, manufacturing and electricity/gas/water supply,”

    So out of 49.8 Billion more than half is made up of stuff that if England closed the borders on, or put tariffs in place would destroy England more effectively than a meteor strike that destroyed half its landmass!

    taking that into consideration is the UK seriously saying that they would not take our electricity or take our gas? really because I smell shite that special sweet Westminster shite!

  100. silverfox says:

    Can anyone PROVE to me that what Robert Peffers says at 2.16pm is true regarding the accounting for Scottish goods being credited as English exports?.
    I thought this was a myth that had been debunked.

  101. Richard MacKinnon says:

    Arbroath1320 12:56
    With pleasure.
    For devolution to work both parties (in this case Westminster and Holyrood) in the arrangement need to accept their role and responsibilites. In other words who reports to who. This applies in any organisation/country or business.
    What we have at present is a Tory government at Westminster and a SNP government at Holyrood. The Scottish government’s job is to run Scottish affairs and it does this with the grant ( I dont know of a better description for the money the Scottish government has to spend) it gets from Westminster. As it is a SNP government in power in Scotland at this time and a Tory government at Westminster driving a long and hard austerity policy it is an indisputable fact that the present set up means the SNP are doing the Tories dirty work for them in Scotland.
    By the way this is not a secret. All MSPs of all parties know what they are doing, as I say, it is only a matter of time before the rest of us wake up to what really is a horrible situation we have got ourselves into.

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m an SNP member but not an SNP apologist, in fact I’ve “fallen out” with a fair few over my criticisms. I’ve also generally respected what the Greens are trying to do with their 6 MSPs – distance themselves from the SNP. But, yes, that but was coming, but …

    See the budget. The SNP are following their manifesto, and it’s what they were voted into a minority Government to do. Conservatives, Labour, LibDems and the Greens weren’t. They’re not in coalition, they’re supposed to be in a constructive opposition.

    Yet you’ve got the Conservaties whose only budget complaint seems to be the higher band tax threshold. Well, they’re not the Government. Then Labour and LibDems trying to insist the SNP implement the Lab/Lib policy of 1p extra tax. Hello, you didn’t win the election. Now you’ve got the Greens trying to insist the SNP implement their ridiculous 60p additional rate tax policy! And at every chance the three Unionist parties go on and on about another Indepenence referendum.

    What I think people see is a Holyrood shambles, a total shambles, and while the SNP are relatively innocent, perhaps even totally in this case, they’re tarred with the same brush through no fault of their own.

    Abolish Holyrood? Some people think that’s the answer.

  103. Richard MacKinnon says:

    yesindyref2 1:19

  104. galamcennalath says:

    Just got round to reading article, but not comments. So sorry if this point made.

    Rev Stu says, …Scotland would be in the EU. Therefore it would continue to trade with the rUK just as it does now…

    Yoon logic is still in denial that iScotland will be welcome in the EU. They even more strongly hate the idea that we might simply keep the UK’s present seat!

    They are still in IndyRef1 BetterTogether mode believing and saying that iScotland will be out in the wilderness with no friends.

    They can’t get their blinkered minds round the reality that iScotland will be just like France, Belgium, Netherlands, and 24 other, in the EU.

    Either, iEngland will be out in the wilderness with no friends, or as common sense dictates they will have some sort of trading arrangement with the EU and that includes iScotland.

    Some people sadly can’t help being thick as mince. However, it seems many UKOK cheerleaders chose to wallow in their self inflicted ignorance and stupidity.

  105. Richard MacKinnon says:

    yesindyref2 1:19
    If there was a second referendum the question should be, “Which parliament do you want to abolish Westminster or Holyrood”?
    If there is not a second referendum then Holyrood is going to become an expensive unnecessary embarassment.

  106. As I observed elsewhere, the worm has turned. Fast forward to September ’18, Scotland overwhelmingly chooses Self Determination and therefore, until the people of Scotland decide otherwise in our first (or subsequent) genuine Scottish GE, remains a member of the EU.
    For the 6 months from Oct. ’18 to Mar ’19, we shall be on the other side of the negotiating table from the Darling Duds of May.
    The whimsy I used was, ‘my Da can beat your Da at fighting.’ because he’s BIGGER.
    We will be part of a Trading Bloc of 500 million, negotiating a trade deal with Little England.
    The nonsense spouted by Fraser, Bird, and The Nervous Wreck Mundell last night, that if we voted Yes, we would somehow be ‘punished’ by English traders, was of course complete and utter nonsense, as was this mythical £50 billion exports to rUK. WM would cease to have any control over Scotland ; don’t they get that at Pacific Quay?
    There’s No ‘uncertainty’ about it.
    They are seriously rattled. I see that they’ve forklifted Blair McDougall into the Daily Rant, and he’s gone all UKIP for Indyref2: ‘immigration’ will be an issue, sneers the Great Northern Roundabout. The Nigel Farage of Scotland.
    Nasty sinister creature.
    What’s he been doing for the past 27 months?
    The GERS figures are not ‘the Scottish Governments own figures’, and all those hacks and hackesses know this.
    Right now, they are shitting bricks in the Fifth Column Bar and Grille.

  107. c rober says:

    The whole borderless NI deal is a trap for Holyrood , if they decide to reject it , or report it to the EU.

    If Brexit means Brexit , and “taking back control of borders and immigration” , then just how is that going to work with EU bordering UK in the Irish isles?

    Could it be just another way to attack EIRE , to not highlight where an Indy Scotland would be , or to expose the bias trade balance and hidden tarrif its exports through English ports?

    Heres a link for you all – the Trade of EIRE , highlighting the Bias of UK trade over that of IRISH imports into the UK , and of course it doesnt mention the subsidising of English port jobs as Irish exports need to got through English ports.

    The be and end all of this Scottish trade gap is exactly the same as with Ireland has with UK – except that Ireland has more economic levers and mechanisms , thus able to negotiate its deals without WESTMINSTER involvement…. but that may well change when they insist that in order to have a soft border all exports are via NI ports.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    @Richard MacKinnon
    Thanks. Would you vote YES in the second Independence Referendum?

    If so, would removing one tier of government be a reason at all?

  109. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Richard McKinnon has just outed himself as a Unionist troll.

    yesindyref2 asked him if he would abolish Holyrood, McKinnon replied he would.

  110. Mike says:

    It would help is this dishonest claim about Scotland exporting more to the rUK than anywhere else in the world was exposed fully as well.
    When will the people who support Independence when confronted with this lie start to explain and expose it?
    They can simply point out that the so called 48 billion worth of exports doesn’t all go to the rUK but an undisclosed part of these exports are simply in transit to destinations outwith the UK.
    Perhaps emphasising the fact that the split of this 48 billion is hidden and should be recorded within the public domain.
    I’m sure we’d all love to know how much Scotland does export directly to the rUK so we can end this bullshit once and for all.

  111. Ian says:

    It seems that the UK is hoping that a fall in the value of the UK pound will make up for increases in export tariffs when it leaves the EU. That didn’t do so well in 1974 (14% devaluation) or 1992 (26% fall in Sterling). rUK even tried unsuccessfully to track the German Mark in the 90’s to stabilise the pound. So not much chance of a devaluation doing any good this time either.–uk-and-sterling.html

    However the recent and likely further falls in the pound will have an effect on imports and inflation. More austerity perhaps to avoid blowing out the UK trade balance even more that is has almost every year since 1980.

    And what about businesses in rUK? Will they just accept being priced out of export markets when they could probably relocate to an EU member and keep all the current trade deals, not just with the EU.

    Westminster is playing a combination of Call my Bluff and I’m Sorry I haven’t a Clue. It’ll make the relative economic decline of the past 50 years look like a walk in the park.

  112. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Whoops! pressed send too soon.

    I was about to point-out Richard McKinnon wants a choice of which parliament to abolish – Holyrood or Westminster – to be on the Indy Ref 2 ballot paper.

    I suppose, a proportion of Proud Scots But would be glad to be rid of Holyrood, and, in a worst-case scenario, post-Brexit, I can see an extreme right-wing Conservative/UKIP controlled Hous of Commons “taking back control” by dissolving Holyrood, plus the Belfast and Cardiff assemblies.

    The fly in that ointment would be, if a majority of SNP MPs were to be elected to Westminster, then we would be independent, as we would have met the agreed measurement for Scottish Independence which was accepted, before Holyrood was re-convened.

    Independence is coming, only the date has to be settled.

  113. Admiral says:

    “Now you’ve got the Greens trying to insist the SNP implement their ridiculous 60p additional rate tax policy!”

    Which cannot be done without increasing every other tax band by the same amount and impacting the lower paid the hardest. Jeez, a brain-dead amoeba could understand that!

    I’m almost hoping for a new election – although in the end I think the Imperial British Labour Party MSPs will be washing their collective hair or somesuch urgent priority when the vote comes, given their current dire poll ratings.

  114. Lenny Hartley says:

    Scott shaw re the greens, think the wee parties Take it turn about ,wee willie rennie wusnae on last week.

  115. Macca73 says:

    Brilliantly put together and it’s something that I think will make those who don’t currently want to listen pay attention. Particularly when people can be invited in from the EU to speak for Scotland’s case.

    Much of this has been kept quiet at the moment but the minute I think article 50 is invoked and those who once thought that the UK was everything to them and it will all be okay suddenly see’s the company they work for walk out the door because of Brexit? What then? Let’s not forget that much of the battle in 2014 was what it meant for people’s pockets. THAT will be key in this case.

    Industry and services are already making moves and speaking to the Rep. Of Ireland, Brussels and Paris amongst other places to move jobs to. Heck even Poland got to make the Dairy Milk and got caught (anyone else notice that it now sais “a glass and a half of UK Milk”) but you mark my words that’s more than a temp fix .. they are looking to trade with the rest of Europe just as much as anyone.

    Those who are strongly in defence of the Union might well start to crack when big business starts to call the game on them. That’s when they’ll turn to the ones next to them for support that is no longer with them and realize they are on the wrong side of the argument.

  116. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Despite feeling we are maybe getting a wee bit ahead of ourselves discussing this, but, the matter of what to call “the rest of the UK”, once we have left.

    Robert Peffers has surely by now convinced all us regular Wingers that: “The Unitd Kingdom was a bipartite Union between the Kingdom of Scotland and the three countries Kingdom of England”.

    Therefore, it stands to reason, when Scotland leaves and this United Kingdom no longer exists, we resort to two separate kingdoms – Scotland and England.

    What is left, has to be England.

    Making this pouint at every opportunity, in the below the line comments section of the London-based dead tree press, just might liven-up the debate, and get the Northern Irish and Welsh readers thinking.

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    @Socrates MacSporran “Unionist troll

    Nope. Different thing. Where I live (75% NO in Indy Ref 1), I know a lot of people who’d abolish Holyrood.

    “Too many people on the gravy train, we need less politicians, not more”.

    Doesn’t make them Unionists.

  118. Cactus says:

    The Kingdom of Scotland..
    Yes we’ll be taking care of business, everyday.

    Tis a bonnie day in the sunny Kingdom of Scotland.

    Even our saltires are standing to attention.. check out the saltire at the entrance to the Tennents Caledonian Brewery on Duke Street on your way home from work fellow Glaswegian’s.

    You’ll see what I mean 🙂

  119. Fred says:

    @ Heed! Since when did you start moderating this site from New Zealand? Spending £4 billion on a clapped-out Victorian monstrosity, plus more on Buckingham Palace, at a time when the English NHS is strapped for cash, is a national disgrace.
    We had generations of Labour MP’s including former Speaker the Baron Springburn, completely bedazzled by the faded grandeur & generous perks of Westminster. It is probably the least democratic government in the EU. Supposing the place is falling apart it’s no business of Scottish MP’s.

  120. Robert Peffers says:

    @Meindevon says: 26 January, 2017 at 12:02 pm:

    ” … All I get is Scotland is not in the EU now the UK is, back of the queue, you’ll have to have the Euro, etc..”

    All quite laughable, Meindevon.

    The really funny bit is that they believe their own propaganda deceptions.

    They believe that the UK is legally the country of England, (and by the way their UK Supreme Court has just backed them up in that false belief).

    However, there is absolutely no problem in disproving their claims and it will be very much the thing that the international community will have little option but to accept.

    Simple provable truths :=

    The United Kingdom is factually a union of only two kingdoms. This is proven by the signatures on the Treaty and on both partner kingdom’s Acts of Union.

    One Article XIX, (19), clearly states that the two Kingdom’s legal systems are sacrosanct and will remain independent in perpetuity.

    Then there is the very last Official Act of the English Parliament. This dissolved the Parliament of England. i.e. The Westminster Palace was no longer the Parliament of the Kingdom of England. No such parliament has legally existed since that Act.

    Westminster Palace was destroyed by fire and the Present building is purpose build by the UK Government to house the UK Government. No legal Parliament of England has ever been legally in existence since that time.

    The present system is now being run as if it were the actual Parliament of England and the actual two partner United Kingdom has been split up along country lines but there is still no legal Parliament of England.

    Yet this lot of numpties is claiming that Westminster is both still the United Kingdom Parliament but is actually now operating as the parliament pf England devolving English powers to the other three countries which means they imagine that England is now the United Kingdom.

    Think about it – they claim that if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom will still exist but Westminster has in place EVEL that shows they are running Westminster as the Parliament of England.

    So – put yourself in the place of the EU and look at it from their POV.

    Along comes TM and arrogantly says, “We are the United Kingdom”, and we demand to leave the EU and here’s an Article 50 that makes it official.

    So the EU, (or more likely their Civil Servants in the EC who are opposed to any member states leaving the Union), will reply, (diplomatically), “Err! Excuse us but you are not the United Kingdom you are only one part of the two partners of the United Kingdom – come back with your partner and we will consider what both of you want”.

    At this point the second shoe will hit the floor as the EU returns the ball from over the touchline to the other part of the United Kingdom and it will be up to the Scots how they throw the ball back into play.

    I hope they then point out to the EU, (referee & linesperson), that the opposition team are fielding illegal players in their team and that their team is in fact not registered to play in that competition as it is NOT the UK but is the de facto Parliament of England that does not actually exist – then demand the evidence is inspected in the international courts.

  121. Capella says:

    Wow. Madeleine Albright ready to register as a Muslim in defiance of Trump plan to make all Muslims register.

    I was raised Catholic, became Episcopalian & found out later my family was Jewish. I stand ready to register as Muslim in #solidarity.

    I am Spartacus again.

  122. yesindyref2 says:

    @@Richard MacKinnon
    Just placed you, presuming you’re the same Richard MacKinnon! I won’t say where from 🙂

    I’m guessing you’re one of those rare people these days that has an open mind?

  123. Admiral says:

    “Too many people on the gravy train, we need less politicians, not more”.

    Get rid of Westminster and there’s 650 politician that we don’t need to bother about anymore. 🙂

  124. yesindyref2 says:

    Plus the 800 and increasing in the House of Lords 🙂

  125. Fiona Laing says:

    Hi, I’ve been lurking here a while and thought it was time I started contributing.

    This is a quote from a Deutsche Bank strategist yesterday
    “In a model of China’s currency allocation we describe elsewhere, we estimate that the pound’s share has likely fallen from close to 10% into low single digits since early 2015 , consistent with the PBoC transitioning from wealth to currency management. The pound may offer value but is increasingly irrelevant.”

    Didn’t here that on the news last night- the looming irrelevance of the pound puts the future of the UK in doubt as an independent Scottish currency looks increasingly attractive!

  126. mike d says:

    Andrew Morton 2.01.good idea. How’s about ‘ Scotland,make our own decisions!

  127. Robert Peffers says:

    @icyspark says: 26 January, 2017 at 12:10 pm:

    ” … Watch Scottish exports rise sharply in the first few years of Independence in Europe.”

    Nah! There will be an instant enormous rise in Scottish Exports as the crazy accountancy of Westminster hits the fan.

    I’ll quote you a couple or three.

    Scotland will immediately regain the 95% to 98% of oil & gas revenues at present going direct to Her Majesty’s Treasury as they will no longer be from the UK Extra-region territory. Not just a gain for Scotland but a loss for England.

    The Scottish produced Whisky, Gin, Beer and other spirits that are counted as English exports as they leave from England will have to pay duty to Scotland to get into England over that hard Border England wants.

    As will the other food products such as fish, farmed Salmon, Aberdeen Angus and other Scottish beef and soft fruit. Then there is electric power that Scotland has been exporting via the National Grid since just after WWII to both England and via the undersea cable to N.I.

    These are all hidden Scottish exports but are also hidden as they are accounted as English Exports when they travel on from English ports to Worldwide markets.

  128. robertknight says:

    @Andrew McLean

    “Jackie Burd said”

    You’re telling me people here actually watch the Brit-Nat Brainwashing Company’s equivalent of Hannoi Hannah?

    You poor man. Go lie down for a bit…

  129. Ken500 says:

    Trade deals are notoriously difficult and they can take up to ten years. The Torie could be out of Office and still no trade deal. The uncertainty and chaos will have a negative depriment on the British economy. The unelected in Scotland Westminster Unionists will continue to try in every way to ruin the Scottish economy. Unless Scotland votes YES in a Independence Referendum relatively soon. There is more other aspect to an economy than only trade. Inward investment from ECB, Renewable Grant, Tax rates set. Spending ratios. Interest rates, tax payments enforced. etc.

    After taking off the cost of production (of the goods). Increased trade with the EU if England/Wales withdraws. Revenues from the EU and shared Defence costs will out way terms and income from trade. Brexit tariffs and costs from the EU will affect Scottish production.and profits.

    Higher taxation rates,than necessary, imposed on Scotland by Westminster Unionist are repressing Scottish production and lowering living standards further. Their negative spending policies imposed on Scotland are lowering living standards and public services further. They are unelected in Scotland but undemocratically interfere in economic decisions which are not majority supported in Scotland,

    They have depopulated Scotland since 1928 and before. People had to emigrate to survive.

  130. Thepnr says:

    The SNP are “doing the Tories dirty work for them”.

    Only one way to change that, get rid of the Tories let Scotland have control of ALL revenues raised here and how they should be spent.

    That can only mean one thing. Scotland must become Independent.

  131. Paula Rose says:

    Hi Fiona Laing nice to meet you.

  132. geeo says:

    Good article, straightforward and simple to understand Stu.

    As said, trade will not stop with england.
    Nor is it a choice between the EU and england.

    My response to this shite peddled on facebook by a yoonatic trying to be clever..
    “It has been claimed (by you) that it is the introduction of trade tariffs between (indy) Scotland and England which will damage Scotland.

    However, since an indy Scotland would have to be in the EU to assume trade tariffs with England, then those trade tariffs between England and Scotland (EU member Scotland) would be the tariffs that are negotiated by WM during the leave negotiations with the EU.

    If the trade tariffs between Scotland and england are shite, that means ALL trade tariffs between England and the EU are also the exact same shite.

    If Teresa May is planning on a good deal with the EU on trade, then that is a good trade deal with Scotland by default.

    If however, Scotland votes for independence and the EU says ‘non’ to us as members, then there is NO REASON for trade tariffs between us.

    Pretty straight-forward to me”.
    Still awaiting a reply…strangely enough !

  133. orri says:

    We’ll also get less interference in attempts, paradoxical for an oil producing nation though they may seem, to generate as much energy via renewables as is practicable. We’d certainly lose the interference in what one might have presumed was a devolved matter via the HoL.

  134. ScottieDog says:

    To mind the followng points have to be made..

    With this ‘single market’ with the rUK, is that arrangement working for Scotland?

    As likely the only part of the UK producing many trade surpluse years over the last 4 decades, how much of that revenue have we seen brought back here?

    Given the govt of Westminster is an advocate of austerity which takes money out of the economy, why would Scotland want to be stuck trading with a region riven by diminishing demand (less purchasing power)?

    We also need to look at imports as well as exports. Scotland will have a much smaller energy gap than England and will likely export its surplus. That’s not a luxury import but an essential resource.
    Beggars can’t be choosers.

    Indy Scot expanding its balance sheet will devalue its currency and make its exports more attractive.

  135. Robert Peffers says:

    @Richard MacKinnon says: 26 January, 2017 at 12:52 pm:

    “I just watched FM questions. What an embarassment Holyrood is. Every one of them are taking part in a massive con trick.”


  136. Cactus says:

    Aweright Fiona Laing, good to have you here.

  137. Glamaig says:

    oh dear looks messy

    As with other divorces, the bitterest battle may be over money. And there is no certainty that any settlement can be agreed at all.

    “Britain’s payments to the EU budget and the issue of the EU quickly starting talks on an FTA (free trade agreement) with Britain will be linked,” said a second senior EU official.

    “There cannot be discussions of a future relationship without first regulating the issue of an orderly separation.”

    EU negotiators reckon Britain has a weak hand to play; May must accept a two-year guillotine on talks that she hopes will end with a deal to keep “maximum” British access to EU markets while pulling Britain out of the single market and its obligations.

    Put simply, if May wants to draft an FTA in only two years as she says — a goal that prompts head-shaking in Brussels — continentals think they can hold her hostage with the threat of trade tariffs from 2019 unless she settles British debts….

    …The other EU member states want it to pay its share of the spending commitments that were agreed when it was a member, stretching out some years, as well as possibly funds to cover the pensions of British EU staff.

    There will, however, be differences over the size of the bill, estimated informally by EU officials at very roughly 60 billion euros — more than Britain spends on defense each year.

    “I can see this turning very bloody over money,” said a person who has had preliminary contact with negotiators on both sides.

  138. Ken500 says:

    It is reported that Trump was discussing water boarding in reference to ISIS beheading people/Christians. Threatening like with like, because people had told him it works. He also, is reported, as ‘Not going to break International Law. I.e. In that event will not condone ‘waterboard’ – torture. Having consulted with the US Secretary and the Defence Chief – he has appointed with Congress approval. The CIA Head has reportedly, not approved – ‘that two can of drink and a packet of cigarettes are more successful for information. The Defence Chief does not approve of waterboard or ‘torture’ being useful. BBC – Reuters information? The End.

    In the event it is likely Trump would ‘make a deal’ and pay the ransom. Like the majority of other countries. The hostage/s would be freed.

  139. Andrew Mclean says:

    Hi Fiona,
    Did you not post a while back?

  140. Garrion says:

    I am forming a man crush on you Stuart. this is acute.

  141. Fiona Laing says:

    Andrew Mclean says:
    26 January, 2017 at 4:03 pm
    Hi Fiona,
    Did you not post a while back? D

    Hi Andrew, different Fiona.

  142. HandandShrimp says:

    It looks to me as if the BBC in Scotland have simply given up any pretence of impartiality and are quite nakedly pushing propaganda. They use headlines and stories fed to them but the opposition parties on a now daily basis and tout that as news.

    One could actually make an entire university course on media duplicity on the BBC Scotland lead or second lead story churned out every single day. I do hope someone is compiling a record of recent output because in concentrated form people would easily see how twisted and toxic it is.

  143. Alan says:

    Also worth noting is that the UK has one of the highest current account deficits of any developed nation. This is a huge problem for rUK in the event of independence as Scotland’s share is in surplus.

    Also hilarious that Unionists claim that Scottish exports to England would be subject to tariffs etc. Utilities such as electricity are a growing portion of Scottish exports to England. But who knows maybe they’ll need to apply tariffs to make Hinkley seem like a good idea. It’s going to be expensive keeping the lights on.

  144. Proud Cybernat says:

    Anyone have any smart ideas as to how we can get rid of our vast resources of North Sea oil & gas before IndyRef2 kicks off? It’s such a volatile ball and chain round Scots’ necks afterall and we are unique in the world as to have it wreck our entire economy should we ever have sovereign control over such a perilous resource.

    Obviously I don’t want the Scots economy ruined, so–how do we get rid of the stuff?


  145. galamcennalath says:

    Stand back and compare.

    2012 we had a coalition government at WM which together commanded 59.2% of votes cast. Like it or not, it had a mandate. Scotland was represented at WM by many Lab and LibDem MPs. The UK Union appeared to have a future and continued membership of the EU seemed a certainty. There was early austerity but no deeply apparent divisions among voters and no constitutional crisis.

    Five years later and we are in the midst of two massive constitutional crisis of an unstoppable Brexit and zero mandate colonial rule of Scotland. Three probably, including NI. The economy and currency are faltering. The world looks in wondering if madness is contagious in these isles. And the world looks a tad shakey with Trump.

    However, amidst all this chaos Scotland has a solution to hand if only a clear majority would make it happen.

  146. David McEwan Hill says:

    Richard MacKinnon at12.52

    Rarely does one meet a post on here so entirely devoid of any discernable import.

    Our usual mischiefmakers usually attempt to provide some content to hang their complaints on

  147. Craig Hamilton says:

    Can it be guaranteed that an independent Scotland would remain in the EU? And if we were not a member of the EU how would that affect the way we trade?


  148. Andy says:

    Exports to England include whisky and food as we we don,t have the necessary infrastructure ie. ports. We used to have great ports in Scotland where everything was shipped from our country. But somewhere along the line that changed the government of the time decided everything must go via the south coast . This was achieved by subsidising the transport industry to the detriment of the Scottish ports. So just think all those exports to England the majority of them are for further transportation out with the U.K. Just a thought there must be more knowledgeable guys out there than myself. Trade figures are from th uk government lets drill and see where exports really go.

  149. K1 says:

    ‘As it is a SNP government in power in Scotland at this time and a Tory government at Westminster driving a long and hard austerity policy it is an indisputable fact that the present set up means the SNP are doing the Tories dirty work for them in Scotland.
    By the way this is not a secret. All MSPs of all parties know what they are doing, as I say, it is only a matter of time before the rest of us wake up to what really is a horrible situation we
    have got ourselves into.’

    ‘it is an indisputable fact that the present set up means the SNP are doing the Tories dirty work for them in Scotland.’

    I dispute that ‘fact’. The SNP are attempting and succeeding to ‘mitigate’ the Tories ‘dirty work’. Their hands are tied in terms of the block grant and ‘powers’ with ‘limited’ economic levers to shape the economy in the manner that befits Scotland’s polity.

    ‘it is only a matter of time before the rest of us wake up to what really is a horrible situation we have got ourselves into.’

    We ‘didn’t get ourselves’ into this ‘horrible situation’, those who support the SNP and put them in charge in the Scottish government are in ‘fact’ the very people who are fighting Tory led austerity policies. The ‘rest of us wake up’?

    For you to claim that the SNP are doing the Tories ‘dirty work’ reveals that it’s you who hasn’t arisen from the slumber of a propaganda induced regurgitation of msm output. Your reading from a page from the handbook of the establishment’s code on ‘How to destroy the SNP in Scotland, tell the people ‘they are just ‘Tories’ masquerading as social democrats’ repeat and rinse over and over again.

    There’s a reason there’s an Independence movement and one of those reasons ‘is not’ to rid ourselves of our parliament. You may well think they are a bunch of amateurs in the parliament but I take that to mean the ‘opposition’ are just that. They are ‘playing’ at politics. The SNP are actively involved in undermining the Tory driven/Labour/Libdem ‘abstaining’ and supporting austerity policies. To state that it is the SNP who are doing the Tories ‘dirty work’ is farcical and laughable in the face of the clear evidence that this is not the case.

  150. Ken500 says:

    Re Greens Budget carry on. That is why everyone who supports Independence has to unconditionally support the SNP, with less public criticism to succeed. Until Independence is achieved. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Or else Independence is sacrificed on at the doorstep of other minor Party’s unpopular policies. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. The flawed electoral system

    Voters will not vote for Independence because of the Greens ridiculous posturing and nonsensical policies and actions. They are false ‘friends’. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Nonsensical at every level. Who is holding them to account? Reneging on all their policies. Colluding with Unionist at every level. To destroy the (local) economy. Ignorant lies and bluster.

  151. Capella says:

    HandandShrimp – YES. Retired Prof John Robertson keeps track of the media bias.

  152. galamcennalath says:

    Could this be the full wording of the Brexit Bill?

    Brexit | European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

    A bill to confer power on the Prime Minister to notify, under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the EU.

    Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—

    1 Power to notify withdrawal from the EU

    (1)The Prime Minister may notify, under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the EU.

    (2)This section has effect despite any provision made by or under the European Communities Act 1972 or any other enactment.

    2 Short title
    This Act may be cited as the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017.

    For zany comic relief you can’t beat the Telegraph, they say …. “The tabling of the bill will trigger a fortnight of intense action in the Commons as the Government faces attempts by Labour and the Liberal Democrats to amend the legislation.” …. no mention of SNP !

  153. Training Day says:


    “It looks to me as if the BBC in Scotland have simply given up any pretence of impartiality and are quite nakedly pushing propaganda. They use headlines and stories fed to them by the opposition parties on a now daily basis and tout that as news.”

    Indeed, but often they don’t rely on opposition parties and set their own agenda through the use of (vexatious) FOIs designed to garner an SNP bad story. In that sense they are a de facto opposition party themselves.

    I (try not to) wonder at the mindset of your average Pacific Quay ‘journalist’, faced with a relentless grind, day after day, of parroting SNP bad in Health, Education, Police, Transport and Tom Cobley. Then reset for the next week. Any rounded human being would quickly slide into madness faced with the anguished monotony of it all, but we are talking about BBC employees here..

  154. K1 says:

    Oh and the use of the term ‘set up’ isn’t a wee clause that gets you out of what you are ‘insinuating’ here Richard. Our parliament isn’t the problem. The establishment ‘designed’ the voting system to ensure the SNP would never achieve a majority sufficient enough to be the ruling party of government in Scotland. They ‘set us up’ yes, but you don’t seem to realise and appreciate that ‘we have woken up’ already…else they (the SNP) wouldn’t be where they are.

    And we wouldn’t now be on the brink of a second independence referendum on the back of the ‘right’ leaning Tory government who just convinced half their polity tae drag us out of the EU against our polity’s 62% majority choice to stay in that trading bloc.

    I repeat the SNP are not ‘falling for’ ‘doing the Tories dirty work’ and neither are the people of Scotland. Obviously.

  155. Andrew Mclean says:

    If like me you learned nothing from the SNP spokesperson on health this morning when trying to fend of a perfectly legitimate questioning by Jackie Bird,,,,,
    This is what the report said about Scotland

    ‘There have been notable improvements in health indicators for children over recent years but the rate of improvement is slower than it should be. There is much that the Scottish Government is doing to reduce the impact of poverty and inequality and there is much in Scotland that can be celebrated and learned from.’

    And the unionists should argue that there should be no difference between the nations they don’t, they try and rubbish us at every turn, every teacher, nurse, doctor, parent, in fact the only people who are exempt are the BBC themselves.

    So lets be better, let’s take control of this vast wealthy country, and every year bombard them with how great we are, and how they have become a nation of poor isolationist winging pomms!

  156. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ken500: “with less public criticism to succeed

    I don’t agree with that Ken500. It wouldn’t be a good idea if many of us criticised the SNP, but what it does do for those of us who are as prepared to criticise them as any other party, is make it more effective in the eyes of the non-politically aligned, the undecided, the soft NOes – and even some of the hard NOes. On accasion it makes them more critical of their own, or more prepared to criticise unjustified criticsm. To speak up in other wrods, rather than let slide. In my opinion open frank and honest debate favours both the SNP and Independence. The truth shall set us free, something I’ve been pushng since 2012 in the Grun btl.

    I support the SNP because apart from their policies which I mostly support, they are the best party in Scotland by far. But it doesn’t mean they’re perfect, and a good speech from Sturgeon last summer acknowledged that fact – a very strong thing to do.

  157. heedtracker says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    26 January, 2017 at 4:08 pm
    It looks to me as if the BBC in Scotland have simply given up any pretence of impartiality and are quite nakedly pushing propaganda.

    “I also think there are huge opportunities for us as we embark on a new Charter so it feels that this is quite a pivotal time in the BBC’s history. I think what we will do over the next 10 years will be hugely important in terms of securing a future way beyond my time for a great institution such as I think this is.”

    Ten more years hard core Rule Britannia, Scotland’s a shithole, UKOK, SNP bad, oh fcuk.
    At least Donalda’s hit the ground running, by lying about how she’s going to spend the next 10 professional years lying, smearing and spinning and the lying at as, about lying… forever.

  158. heedtracker says:

    Not going out on a limb here but its fair to say that Donalda is a far more aggressive BBC propagandist than the last guy MacQuarry ever was.

    It’s staggering to think that MacQuarry was actually holding BBC Scotland crew back. Under Donalda, they’ve gone completely crazy. Weak new boss, or strong new boss?

  159. Stan says:

    Interesting piece! If you need a laugh at the Tories I really recommend this piece on Foreign Office officials trying to tell Boris Johnson that the Empire no longer exists!

  160. galamcennalath says:


    Donalda’s overt mission is to restore trust in the BBC, and simultaneously fulfil a covert mission to push pro Union propaganda.

    The two needn’t be mutually exclusive, however it’s a bloody tall order at this stage in the game to achieve both!

    The propaganda aspect is no longer covert to an ever increasing block of Scots!

    BBC news and political coverage is beyond redemption. Total replacement on Indy is the only solution. Meantime, their obviously deceitful behaviour is harming the very union they hope to supports as more and more eyes open.

  161. Meg merrilees says:

    Welcome Fiona

    Good to have another Wing.

    Seem to be a lot of unfamiliar names in the last week or so, so welcome one and all.

    Alexicon @11.40 am today posted this link

    It’s worth having readily available because it’s the BBC’s own figures about Scotland’s Export and Import figures albeit in 2014.

    The amazing thing about this link is that it takes you to a whole series of actual (and possibly even true?) facts about the pros and cons of Scotland becoming independent which they issued as a series prior to the 2014 ref.

    There’s categorically NO WAY they would post articles like this today… show’s you how much they’ve swung to the right!

    The articles seem to be archived but are they safe – could they be scrubbed? Some of this info with a BBC Logo on it could be gold-dust in helping to convince No’s..

  162. A.Hamilton says:


    I like your posts, interesting and reflect how I feel.
    Thank you.

  163. bjsalba says:

    @People Carrier at 12:42 pm

    May I suggest KEPPaD – Kingdom of England, Principality, Province and Dependencies?

    Gives England the Prime (Grandiose) Position – letting them cling to their delusions of grandeur – and keeps the others under lids as is fitting.

  164. DebzoHighland says:

    Nana @ 4.40pm

    Fag Packet for sure.
    I had to do more paperwork to close a bank account!
    And I wasn’t allowed to proceed until my (pending) ex-husband had been contacted and gave his consent.

    Keep the links coming, they are much appreciated.

  165. Hermodr says:

    The arguments are already won, but so many No voters don’t need or want to get involved in arguments. It’s all word association with these people. Luckily for us, I think our side will do better on that score for IndyRef2.

    UK = Brexit, Economic Disaster, Racism, Violence, Murder of Politicians, UKIP, Tories, Austerity, Trump, Torture, Nuclear Weapons.

    iScotland = Trade, Successful Economy, European, Peaceful Relations with Neighbours, People of the World are Welcome, Anti-War.

  166. heedtracker says:

    The propaganda aspect is no longer covert to an ever increasing block of Scots!

    Yes but it clearly switched up a big gear as soon as Donalda took over. Its very cynical of them to go on the National and tell its readers BBC trust will be restored under her reign.

    Its probably out of her hands now anyway. Grizzly Dudes in trench coats, expensive hair cuts, heavy tans, BBC office ID’s, with latest iphones and very heavy Landan accents, are all over the place, Glasgow airport, Friday evening, Monday morning.

    The stakes have never been higher. UKOK goon show are not going to leave it to anyone in their Scotland region.

    Just take this tin foil hat off now:D

  167. Nana says:

    @DebzoHighland Hello

    From the article in the herald

    HOLYROOD will have a vote on the Great Repeal Bill which delivers Brexit, Scottish Secretary David Mundell has said.

    Mr Mundell said he was working on the basis that MSPs would vote on a legislative consent motion (LCM) in respect of the Bill, as it would affect devolved matters.

    He also warned there would be “very serious consequences” if MSPs voted against the Bill, which will repeal the European Communities Act which took the UK into Europe in 1973.

    Blah blah behind a paywall

  168. galamcennalath says:

    Time for a (another) top ten of Unionist lies?

    Who said it (ideally several important Yoons)? When? Where with links?

    Then what actually happened.

    Given where we are, I put my top two as ‘EU membership guaranteed’ and ‘Union of equals’.

  169. Andrew McLean says:

    The Labour Leave campaign paid Ukip with Tory money?

    well if that just take’s the biscuit!

    I honestly don’t know what to say!


  170. gerry parker says:

    Robert @ 3:32

    Don’t forget the opportunities making Melton Mowbery pork pies, regional cheeses,ciders beers and spirits Scotland can start making and exporting because these products will loose their protected status.

    (wee winkey thing)

  171. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for April 2013 now showing on O/T.

  172. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Fiona Laing (3.21) –

    Welcome aboard!

  173. Lenny Hartley says:

    Hello Fiona, how do you get time to lurk?
    For those who do not know her, Fiona works her socks off for the cause of .independence.

  174. Nana says:

    O/T Some teatime reading

    Government is overestimating its influence in the US. Theresa May might as well stay at home

    The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned

  175. IcySpark says:

    Here’s a snappy one liner (I hope)

    By seeking a good deal with Europe, the rUK will, as a consequence, be seeking a good deal with Scotland.

  176. heedtracker says:

    Imagine what it must be like, if youre losing your job and voted NO.

  177. Liz g says:

    Nana @ 5.21
    RE …. Mundell very serious consequences…EH..Fur who.
    Is this it now coming down to threats of direct rule.
    You can have a vote Holyrood but vote our way or else?
    I know they want to stir up violence cause they know what to do with that.
    But to seriously try to threaten Holyrood !!!And the only thing that they can actually do to Holyrood is close it down…Or try to.
    Strange that someone showed up here today to raise that very point.
    …Puts down pop corn…. Polishes tin hat….
    Do they not realise that this movement won’t play by their play book?

  178. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Re what to call what’s left after we gain Independence.

    While I still favour “England”, how about KEECH (Kingdom of England and External Colonial Holdings).

  179. Macart says:

    Jings! Some new names.

    Hullo. *Waves* 🙂

  180. robertknight says:

    The Trump wagon rolls forward a few feet and already a wheel (Administering foreign policy) starts to come off.

    If other department managers start to fall on their swords The Donald will have just about enough time for a photo call with The Maggie May before having to recruit a raft of senior civil servants to run Washington.

    Don’t let the door smack your ass on the way out the Oval Office Mrs May – that’s The Donald’s job! :0

  181. heedtracker says:

    Dont mess with Mexico. Planet toryboy’s final been told to get tae to fcuk.

  182. rogerM says:

    “An independent Scotland would be in the EU. Therefore it would continue to trade with the rUK just as it does now – except that Scotland, as an EU member, would now be getting preferential terms.”

    I’m not sure I follow this reasoning to be honest. Stu seems to be saying the UK will incur no costs for leaving the EU – trade with EU states will carry on as before. Isn’t the whole basis for having another referendum that leaving the EU means a fundamental change in our circumstances?

    Serious discussion only please.

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 26 January, 2017 at 3:05 pm:

    “Nope. Different thing. Where I live (75% NO in Indy Ref 1), I know a lot of people who’d abolish Holyrood.
    “Too many people on the gravy train, we need less politicians, not more”.
    Doesn’t make them Unionists.”

    Oh! Yes it does – as long as it is Holyrood they want to get rid off they are indeed supporters of the Union.

    I want shot of Westminster so I’m for independence but if they want rid of Hoyrood they want not just to retain the Union they want to go along with what the Supreme Court has just ruled The United Kingdom is England and to prove it they have imposed EVEL upon everyone else.

    If it isn’t the parliament of England then perhaps you can tell me who are the elected members of the devolved Parliament of England and were they sit and debate English only matters? How many of them are there and who is theit First Minister?

  184. gerry parker says:


    I just call it the Other Kingdom now.


  185. People Carrier says:

    bjsalba says:
    26 January, 2017 at 5:07 pm
    @People Carrier at 12:42 pm


    What about rK, just rK – lose the United bit?

    TBH – I’m in favour of mostly anything that gets rid of rUK. Infantile………… mum doesn’t think so.

  186. Gary45% says:

    Cheers Stu, Another gem.
    “Mon” the Mexicans.
    Going by Americas history, do they actually know what end Mexico is? Canada should be worried.
    Heard on the wireless Mayhem says the UK and America invented the modern world or some other bollocks.
    I take she was referring to the North Colony.
    Scotland HAS invented the modern world. (Fact)

  187. DebzoHighland says:

    Nana @ 5.21pm

    “Very serious consequences”
    For whom is his concern, I wonder?

    As Scottish Secretary, you would think it should be Scotland!

    However, as the UKSC have already told us folk, from their northern British region, to keep our noses out of UK decisions….Why should he be concerned about the outcome of a vote that will stand for nothing in the UK Gov’s eyes?

    Oh yeah! The rest of Europe will be watching! ?

    As JC is all up for A50 now, there’s a good chance Kez vote it down……if she can find the button that is? ?

  188. Nana says:

    @Liz g

    Aye he’s a laugh a minute. I’m trying to picture him with a ‘do as I say’ face, nope I picture him picking his beard.

    Deluded soul thinks he’s got clout when he’s not even allowed into cabinet meetings. lol

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cactus says: 26 January, 2017 at 3:51 pm:

    “Aweright Fiona Laing, good to have you here.”

    I’ll second that.

  190. Paula Rose says:

    @People Carrier at 12:42 pm


    Union Jack Kingdom.

  191. robertknight says:

    I’ve got a better idea. We’ll just go with the Kingdom of Scotland and call the remainder Mordor.

    I can just picture the huge flaming eye suspended above Big Ben…

  192. Macbeda says:

    I like KEECH but a bit long

    I still favour rK – the remaining Kingdom. After all the UK consisted of two kingdoms and if Scotland leaves then all there is is rK.

  193. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 26 January, 2017 at 2:30 pm

    … “Abolish Holyrood? Some people think that’s the answer.

    Aye! And with the Donald’s finger on the big red button, “The Donald”, may just oblige them with their wish and take the whole World with it.

  194. HandandShrimp says:

    I see Tam Dalyell has passed away. I am not sure I ever agreed with a word he said but it is a passing of an era.

  195. ronnie anderson says:

    Ah wid caw it ah Queendom furs they’ve nae King, will chinge in the future tho.

  196. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Anent my suggestion of KEECH as a name for what’s left of the UK after we leave.

    There is another reason, I’d love to hear the English trying to say it.

  197. galamcennalath says:

    rogerM says:

    “… Scotland, as an EU member, would now be getting preferential terms.”

    I’m not sure I follow this reasoning to be honest.

    My take on that is Stu is challenging the Yoon notion that iEngland would not trade with iScotland.

    His point is that iScotland will be able to trade with the rest of the EU. Business as usual.

    In addition iScotland, like the rest of the EU, will if fact trade with iEngland with a reasonable deal in place. We have to wait and find out exactly what that is. Common sense dictates there will be some sort of ‘preferential terms’ relative to the poor terms of WTO.

    Stu seems to be saying the UK will incur no costs for leaving the EU – trade with EU states will carry on as before.

    IEngland will have bucket load of up front costs to pay as part of the divorce. In addition they will almost certainly contribute to have access to the EU with terms better than WTO. However, I don’t see Stu commenting at all on this.

    Isn’t the whole basis for having another referendum that leaving the EU means a fundamental change in our circumstances?

    IMO there are far more issues at stake about being dragged out of the EU against our will than future trade deals and potential tariff costs.

    Firstly we have the astonishing democratic deficit of almost colonial rule from WM with no mandate, trampling over our elected representatives.

    Secondly the EU is primarily about peace, security, and cooperation in the once troubled continent of Europe. Workers rights, parents rights, food standards, European Court of Justice, etc etc … Mad May et al plan to turn their back on all this.

    Forget trade, this is about much more important moral principles related to who we are and what we as a nation say we want.

  198. Andrew McLean says:

    I said plenty about him on the Scotsman, but old fashioned as I am, I will say my condolences to his loved ones. Indeed an end of a era! And sad he won’t see his country Scotland independent and prosperous, as I am sure he would have appreciated.

  199. pool9 says:

    Hello, another new poster here (posted twice before I think, forever ago). Ex-pat, living in the US since 2001, just to let you know how my perspective.

    I think the second post in this thread by Sandy, nailed it.

    It is apparently ok (according to the brexiteer/unionist hybrid which currently consititutes the ruling ideology in Westminster) for the rUK to turn its back on a single EU market of 500m and say it is taking back control, but it is crazy for an iScotland to turn its back on a ‘single UK market’ of 50m. That would be disaster and in no way similar to the Brexit paradigm. Stated without irony or explanation.

    This inconsistency should be the message that is broadcast by independence campaigners. The old one rule for them, one rule for us hypocrisy, boiled down and made clear to everyone.

    It is unfair that Westminster can have no idea about what it is planning to do with regards to Brexit, the Leave campaigned without a detailed blueprint of their plans, and yet the independence movement is constantly harangued about specifics. Why do the empty suits never have to answer those kinds of questions? Independence campaigners are constantly asked to explain their positions, when slogans and lies (sorry, falsehoods, ehh, alternative facts) appear to suffice for unionist and brexit supporters.

    It seems to me that we are in search of slogans that work, that just so happen to be backed up by reasonable facts and figures. This site is a treasure trove in that regard. The WBB distilled into memes, for the attention challenged.

    Unionists want to drown the campaign (and it has started already as far as they are concerned, in my opinion) in ‘what ifs?’ around the EU and possible trade configurations, knowing nothing is certain, and uncertainty is all they want to foster.

    The independence campaign does not this time need to scramble to answer every question, but stick to the truth. The democratic deficit. The already demonstrably broken promises. The decisions taken in Westminster that hurt Scotland and its people. Make them defend their crappy track record, rather than have independence supporters defend possible futures that can be changed with the next unionist editorial. Scotland has an embarrasment of riches in its land and people, and if those people were allowed to manage their land as they wished, there is no doubt in my mind it would thrive.

    My 2c, as they say.

  200. heedtracker says:

    Looks like C4 news teatime is now permanent USA news from Washington. Planet toryboy is certainly having a lovely old time Heil Trumping it, for another 4 long hard years

  201. Wullie says:

    I would like oor Nicola to put before oor parliament a bill to withdraw Scotland from the United Kingdoms. Same as the bill that mayhem has put before the English Parliament as regards the EU
    Scotland and England are equal partners in this Union. Let’s stop reacting to Westminster and put the cat among the pigeons. Start leading all day every day cheer us up for goodness sake. Turn the tables, throw everything at them including the kitchen sink.

  202. Gfaetheblock says:

    Interesting proposal, assuming all the assumptions are correct, it leads to two obvious questions:

    1 – what price will the EU membership cost? €, reduction in debt and deficit, austerity?

    2 – if we have preferential trade agreement, this would mean imports from rUK would cost us more, which could have a multiple of impacts, including imapcting the level of trade, impact on our industries that have supply chain dependacies on rUK suppliers and making making rUK more isolationist and therefore our exports less attractive to them.

    And this is good news?

  203. Capella says:

    Hi Fiona and pool9 – great to have new posters contributing ideas.
    Wulls’ suggestion is an excellent one. There already is a template – the two clause Bill that Theresa may is hoping to whizz through Parliament. The 56 SNP MPs can then walk out once their 50 amendments are brushed aside.

  204. Capella says:

    Sorry – Wullie, not Wulls. You’re not Oor Wullie are you?

  205. Stu Mac says:


    Is that the Madeline Albright who thought the lives of
    500,000 children were worth it to achieve American policy objectives? I believe most of these kids were Muslims. I suggest this is more down to anything to attack Trump (who himself is a horrible person) than any actual caring about Muslims.

    “On May 12, 1996, Albright defended UN sanctions against Iraq on a 60 Minutes segment in which Lesley Stahl asked her “We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” and Albright replied “we think the price is worth it.”

  206. Bobnugent says:


  207. Mrs Cloudy says:

    I have a question about Scottish exports leaving through English ports. Why don’t we have our own ports? I’ve wondered that for a while and particularly every time there are delays at Dover. Is it just a matter of funding the infrastructure or are there othere factors that I haven’t thought about? Sorry if that’s a daft question but I’m sure someone here will have an answer.

  208. heedtracker says:

    Heil Trump. And Teresa’s going to be launching her UK nukes here, there and anywhere really.

  209. gerry parker says:

    In trading with iScotland, the other Kingdom will be trading with an EU country. The EU will say what the terms are. In any case if they want to trade with iScotland, their products will have to conform to EU standards now, and in the future.

  210. Another Union Dividend says:

    Andrew McLean.@ 7 pm , I don’t frequent The Scotsman site but

    Tam Dalyell was an eccentric Old Etonian who was a thorn in the side of governments but was nevertheless a paid-up member of the British Establishment.

    Born the Baronet Rt Hon Thomas Loch, he was a direct descendant of James Loch of Clearances infamy and also a descendent of Bluidy Tam Dalyell who hunted down the Covenanters.

    His parents changed the family name to Dalyell in order to inherit Binns and when selected to fight 1962 By Election in West Lothian local Labour officials changed his name to “Tam” to make him appear more working class. In the By-Election, Billy Wolfe came second and put the SNP on the map.

    No friend of Scotland, as well as playing a critical role in preventing devolution in 1979, he failed to speak out on the transfer of the 6000 square miles of North Sea in 1998. The boundary shift was established by an order carried out at Westminster under the Scottish Adjacent Boundaries Order (1999).

    The order was passed by the House of Lords and the Committee on Delegated Legislation on 23 March 1999, but was not openly debated in the Commons.

    It was moved by McLeish – then a Scottish Office minister and received minimal opposition from a committee containing three other Scottish MPs – Tam Dalyell, Sir Robert Smith and John McAllion.

    He was however always courteous towards opponents – unlike many of his Labour colleagues.

    Btw Angus Robertson on BBC Question Time to-night.

  211. Stu Mac says:


    Can’t agree with responding to English arrogance with equally bad Scottish arrogance. The modern world was invented by the advanced industrial nations of Europe and America. The UK by dint of accidental circumstances being a leader in this. What one can say is that for a very small, low population nation Scotland played an unusually large part in this.

  212. Andrew Mclean says:

    Just to calm the jets a bit,

    The trigger for A50 is as stupid as it is and with the democratic defect hanging round it’s neck, still a legitimate act for the Westminster government. (Had to spit repeatedly when writing that).

    The real fight is yet to come when the Westminster parliament votes for the the great repeal act, the SNP MPs and ok the other two will have to fight tooth and nail to ensure Scottish rights.
    Simultaneously MSP,s must ensure that the legislative consent motion, is acceptable to both the existing situation in holyrood, and allowing for continued expansion of the power of the Scottish parliament, till all that is left for the Westminster parliament is some small executive function.

  213. heedtracker says:

    Tam Dalyell got famous for monstering Thatcher over the Belgrano sinking. It was an odd way to get famous really. His case seemed sane, how can you torpedo a battle ship sailing away from the battle zone. BUt if you declare war and invade, any and all enemy weaponry is a target, sailing away or not. But it got him out there.

  214. Gary45% says:

    Any thoughts that the quaich will have a wee “apron” with made in England stamped on it, maybe Trump will put his teeth in it at bedtime, because I think Mayhem and Trump will be clueless on what to do with it,then again he could use it to water his toupee at night.

    Yep I agree with you there, just had a wee look at FMQs on ya tube. Nicola should just reply to mini Jong Un’s questions? with LIAR, it might cause a bit of a stooshie, but it will highlight the constant garbage coming from the opposition, likewise when they are interviewed by the empire media, call them out for the liars that they are.
    The SNP seem to be a wee bit too gentle with the opposition, IMHO.

  215. snode1965 says:

    This example of trade continuing after leaving the UK always stumps the yoons.
    The American War of Independence.
    America fought a bloody eight year war, funnily enough over control of their trade, against their colonial master Britain.
    The war ended in 1783 and by 1785 trade had returned to pre-war levels.
    By 1792 trade between the bitter enemies had doubled. 😉

  216. Bill McLean says:

    Pool9 – great post! Don’t be shy with your 2c – it’ll be worth a pound sterling soon!

  217. Meg merrilees says:

    World scientists have now deemed that the Doomsday clock has jumped by 30 seconds to two-and-a-half minutes to Apocalypse.

    The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists says Trumps comments on nuclear proliferation, climate change and the views of some of his appointees, plus the possible breaking of the Iran Nuclear deal, the rise of strident nationalism and fake news have caused them to move it to the closest it has been since 1953.

  218. Gfaetheblock says:

    Gerry Parker

    But there is a basic tenet here that any barriers to trade is bad. So putting a barrier between Scotland and England, who are huge trading partners, will be bad for both economies. Add to this that Scotland will have no control over much of its monetary policy to influence exchange rates, then it gets even worse.

    The arguement presented in this article only shows that, economically in the short to medium term, Brexit and Scottish independence are both bad for all parts of the UK.

  219. Gary45% says:

    Stu Mac@8.05
    Aye fair enough I accept that.
    I was incensed at the typical Yoon broadcasting attitude. I suppose if you take away what the Scots have been given credit for, i.e, bicycle, road surface, TV, telephone the list goes on, not sure what the modern world would look like. I refer to that input when talking about Scotland inventing the modern world, because sure as shit if it was England who invented them we would never hear the end of it.

  220. Clydebuilt says:

    Hearing that Westminster are bringing Scottish fishing grounds into talks with Spain…… Would the aim be to offer access to our fishing grounds for Spain agreeing to block Scotland’s membership of the EU.

  221. Soutron says:

    From what I can gather Norway et al are able to negotiate their own trade deals outside the EEA. Just thinking that if iScotland were to go down the EFTA route, a separate free trade deal could be struck between rUK and iScotland. Perfect if the UK walks with no EU trade deal in place (not an unlikely outcome).

  222. Soutron says:

    @Clydebuilt they’ll be getting told to gtf by Spain if there’s no repatriation of Gibraltar on offer.

  223. Meg merrilees says:

    Link to article about the Doomsday Clock.


    Condolences to Tam Dalyell’s family, end of an era.

    He, of the ‘Belgrano’ and the ‘West Lothian Question’ – undoubtedly left his mark.

    His autobiography is called ‘The Importance of Being Awkward’

    Maybe that should be a motto for us all.

  224. Liz g says:

    RE…Trade with what’s left of the UK..
    If we are an EU country we will have EU standards,if Westminster lower their standards to the US level then we won’t be trading much with them anyway, unless they are going to guarantee that that they won’t lower standards in a US deal.
    They should be asked to clarify that, Scotland would need to know if there is a quality guarantee,a front page vow,a tweet to Mr Trump we won’t be buying GM food???
    If not our future market is the EU,for em…Health reasons.
    Or we get the poor quality food that the US keeps trying to punt.
    They keep forgetting we will be an EU country,they will be US affiliated with very different standards and rules.

    Welcome to all the new posters..Great to have some fresh input.

  225. yesindyref2 says:

    @Gfaetheblock: “But there is a basic tenet here that any barriers to trade is bad. So putting a barrier between Scotland and England, who are huge trading partners, will be bad for both economies.

    Seriously? You expect Maggie May to build a Trump Wall?

    Add to this that Scotland will have no control over much of its monetary policy to influence exchange rates, then it gets even worse.

    In what way would Scotland with our own currency, if pegged to the £Sterling for instance, have no control over our monetary policy? Or is this the old debunked “Scotland would have to join the Euro” myth?

    The arguement presented in this article only shows that, economically in the short to medium term, Brexit and Scottish independence are both bad for all parts of the UK.

    No it doesn’t.

  226. DerekM says:

    @ Heed

    Heard from an American about that story though he claims it originated in the Daily Mail which would not surprise me if true.

  227. yesindyref2 says:

    Yay, started doing year end accounts 4 days earlier than normal.

    Tam Dalyell was one of those characters whose politics just didn’t matter to me. Another one was Willie Hamilton, and I’m neither a republican nor a monarchist.

    Politicians with character.

  228. Al Dossary says:


    Do some reading into the “Cod Wars” between Britain (or should I say the commercial fisheries of Hull and Grimsby).

    The UK went to war almost with Iceland on several occasions in the 20th Century over Iceland having the temerity to declare a 12 mile / 50 mile / 100 mile / 200 mile “exclusive” fishing zone.

    The UK government at the behest of the largely English factory fishing fleet (who had fished their home grounds almost to extinction, as well as the Scottish grounds) had started fishing in Icelandic waters. Even as close in history as the 1950’s was Scarborough the ” Tuna game fishing” capital of Britain – at least until the same fleets extinguished the herring and mackerel stock.

    Iceland naturally wanted to protect it’s fish stocks, since it was the major industry. The UK, being the bully it naturally has been since time immemorial sent frigates and warships to protect the fishing fleet.

    Fast forward to 1974, and the UK gave up the “Cod Wars” due to 22 factors. Iceland hed threatened to withdraw from NATO unless the UK was forced to desist, opening the North Atlantic to Russian subs etc, and at the same the UK was arguing their case at the Hague for a 200 mile continental shelf due to the discovery of Forties oil field.

    Duplicitous to the end, and has it been since its formation is the Londonium establishment.

  229. Dr Jim says:

    Remember all the countries who gained their Independence from the UK, they’re called the commonwealth now and the UK trades with them all

    The silly billy threat of not trading with Scotland is just that, silly billyness by a bunch of silly billys who have no reasonable argument so resort to meaningless threats in the hope yer Granny will fall for them

    And anyway they say they want to continue trade with the EU
    Scotland will be the EU and England is a wee bitty short of supplies in the food department

  230. Scott Shaw says:

    Cheers for the answer Lenny.

  231. Graf Midgehunter says:

    I think I would call what’s left of the UK after Indy as

    BULK – Bugger all left Kingdom. 😉

  232. Gfaetheblock says:


    I will assume you know what I meant by ‘barriers to trade’ and were having a wee joke, but do you think that a scot cureency pegged the sterling, so we are In the EU for trade with the high level of regulation required but have a monetary policy needing to stalk the diverging economic model of brexit rUK (potentially low regulation and low tax) makes any sort of a coherent offering? Good luck selling that one!

  233. ianbeag says:

    We are bombarded daily with Scotland’s dependence on our exports to England – £42-50 billion and the inferred threat that this would cease on day one post indy. Andrew MacLean’s posting today at 2.24pm raises some important points which should be highlighted, analysed and added into the equation.
    However, am I the only Wings reader who is totally mystified why there is no authoritative figure for England’s exports to Scotland which I suspect are substantially higher than our exports to the South?. Why has the Scottish Govt not released this figure and given us another shot to challenge Mundell and the Brexiteers.
    Come on Wings?

  234. heedtracker says:

    Bettertogether Severin and Fluffie of The Graun. Fool them once with their UKOK, “sweeping new powers to Holyrood,” fool them over and over forever.

    Imagine being threatened by a Fluffie, in anything else but the future of Scotland. Madasfuck.

    “Not agreeing to the great repeal bill would have very significant consequences. But my focus will be to work with the parliament here, with committees, to get that agreement.”

    That bill could repatriate sweeping new powers to Holyrood, including control over farm subsidies, fisheries and employment rules, as well as enshrining EU legislation into Scots law. Mundell said criminal justice powers, including over consumer rights, were “the most obvious ones”.

  235. archieologist says:

    We can expect to hear a lot of noise in the MSM over the next few days about the special relationship and possible trade deal between US and UK. However Donald Trump is not a free trader, he believes in protectionism. He has spelled this out with his ” America First.” So any trade deal will mean America first and UK well, who knows. e.g.
    Will Trump force May to accept the dumping of GM crops from US into the Scottish market where GM farming is banned?
    When Trump has put tariffs on Chinese steel imports into the US how is T May going to stop the dumping of Chinese steel into the UK market as she tries to negotiate a trade deal with China?
    And what about May’s potential trade deals with Australia and New Zealand. Well the days when the UK exported manufactured goods in vast quantities to these countries is long gone just like the British Empire. These countries now do massive trade with the Far East. Go to Kuala Lumpur or Singapore and the shops are full of foodstuffs from OZ and NZ . Australian roads are filled with Korean and Japanese cars. The Chinese are investing heavily in Australia. These markets were lost to the UK long ago and these former colonies have moved on and are proud and confident independent countries trading heavily with the Far East.
    Scotland now needs to move on and become an independent country within the EU. It needs to get the governments it votes for and not one forced on us by England. Scotland can do it and we must not let ourselves be bullied and derided by little Britons and their sneering negativity towards Scotland.

  236. stewartb says:

    To add to Dr Jim’s remarks @ 8.50 pm

    Boris Johnson, the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, gave his first major policy speech at Chatham House on 2 December, 2016 ( ). I extract a couple of relevant gems:

    “… it is our historic post-Brexit function, as the PM has said, to be the leading agitators for free trade.”

    “… seizing the moment to campaign for openness and open markets across the globe beginning with some of those dynamic commonwealth economies that are already queuing up to do free trade deals.”

    But of course all this ‘free trade’ commitment would, exceptionally, be put to one side when it comes to England’s nearest neighbour and fellow member of The Commonwealth.

    And for Scotland alone, England would renege on The Commonwealth Charter: “The Charter expresses the commitment of member states to the development of free and democratic societies and the promotion of peace and prosperity to improve the lives of all peoples of the Commonwealth.”

  237. heedtracker says:

    Surely Severin and the Fluffster arent liars, UKOK liars, in their Scotland region of greater England, forever?

    Mike Russell, the Scottish Brexit minister, said he was deeply disappointed that nothing substantive had emerged given that Mundell had requested the meeting to discuss the great repeal bill.

    “There was no offer, no guarantee even that current devolved powers, presently exercised through EU membership, will be coming back to Scotland. There should be no UK government power grab,” Russell said.

  238. winifred mccartney says:

    Joanna Cherry on A Neil said:
    Scotland to UK 48.5 bn and 12 bn to EU
    and England to Scotland 52 bn – are they really going to cut off their noise to spite their face?

  239. Soutron says:

    I agree Gfaetheblock, not convinced it’s a particularly coherent argument at the minute. As for pegging an indy pound to Sterling..I’m not sure the ramifications of that are fully understood by those who advocate it.

  240. pool9 says:

    snode1965 at 8.15pm makes a great point about UK-US trade after the Revolutionary/American War of independence.

    It bounced right back, and grew, in a remarkably short period of time.

    Trade won’t stop because political relationships change.

    Also useful to recall how the fledgeling US was told it would be too poor to pay for itself by unionist propaganda of the time. I’m looking for the quote but can’t yet find it – I’ve seen it here and on other indy sites over the last few years…

    And here in this thread we see the arguments arising that independence will adversely affect trade (however the trade arrangements are configured), and it will be bad.

    Danger Will Robinson! Uncertainty!

    Will it be worse than being stuck in a union in which we have no representation? That does with Scottish resources and people as it wills without the consent of the Scottish people? That decides trade arrangements for us, that we have no choice but to accept? Because that is the current reality. And it is awful.

    But you know, the future might be worse, because reasons.

    If people put as much effort into projecting how bad a brexit UK economy will be for the UK as they do imagining how bad an independent Scotland’s economy would be, then the likelihood is no one would want to brexit. Too late for that now. Pity that argument wasn’t seriously and forensically examined during the Leave campaign, as detailed in their White Paper! But let’s all speculate on Scotland needing to adopt the euro!

  241. Nana says:

    A few links

    Theresa May’s speech to Republicans in Philadelphia: full text

    Britain’s excruciating embrace of Donald Trump shows how little independence it has gained from Brexit

    Donald Trump’s “emotional maturity [and] stability” are being discussed in private by senior members of his own political party

  242. People Carrier says:

    Paula Rose says:
    26 January, 2017 at 6:20 pm
    @People Carrier at 12:42 pm

    Ok – what do we have so far


    Anymore – and have I missed any?

  243. ScottieDog says:

    “In what way would Scotland with our own currency, if pegged to the £Sterling for instance, have no control over our monetary policy? Or is this the old debunked “Scotland would have to join the Euro” myth?”

    The point is that our monetary policy is essentially then ‘slaved’ (for want of a better phrase) to a foreign currency which reduces oir flexibility.
    The Scottish central bank ends up trying to protect the peg and has to attract foreign reserves (ok if there’s a good trade surplus), try to reduce demand for foreign goods (austerity), or worse borrows foreign reserves to maintain the peg.

    For me the £ currency peg makes less and less sense considering the rUK(newco) economy will diverge from our own.

    Here’s a good link which provides Denmark’s Euro peg as a case in point…

    “Further, while Denmark did not formally enter the monetary union by adopting the euro that doesn’t mean that they have maintained their currency independence. They chose instead to peg the Danish kroner against the euro (effectively continuing the ERM parities), which immediately meant that its central bank had to follow ECB monetary policy. Fiscal policy then became a passive player to ensure it didn’t exacerbate the peg parity and Denmark also bought into the Stability and Growth Pact fiscal rules. This meant that internal devaluation (wage cutting) was the only real counter-stabilisation option available to them when facing external imbalances and domestic recession. It hasn’t worked well as one would expect. In fact, the euro peg works against the interests of the Danish people, particularly low income workers prone to unemployment. Yet the nation has an obsession with maintaining it. Groupthink abounds. The correct policy strategy which would give the Danish government a wider range of policy tools to enhance the well-being of its people would be for Denmark to abandon its euro peg. It should do that virtually immediately.”

  244. Meg merrilees says:

    When do we expect the Great Repeal Bill to be brought forward?

    Might this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel’s back re our red line for triggering Indy ref2?

    Presumably part of the reason for waiting till 2018 is to try and get some sense of what will be the exact deal offered to Scotland re Brexit and if fishing/agriculture/ further undermining of Holyrood’s powers seems to be the deal then that will be the point of no return.

    Don’t like Fluffy’s threat that ‘not agreeing to the Great Repeal Bill would have very serious consequences for Holyrood’.


    What about DUK – dis-united kingdom?

    Seriously I think we should just refer to the other part of the UK as England since that is the truth. Will concentrate the minds of Wales and and N.Ireland as to their actual status in the eyes of WM – sorry for them though.

  245. Meg merrilees says:

    or the Federal United Kingdom? not a serious suggestion but we could happily tell them to get to…

  246. yesindyref2 says:

    @Gfaetheblock “I will assume you know what I meant by ‘barriers to trade’

    No, sorry, I’m not a mind-reader.

    As for pegging the currency, what I said was “if pegged to the £Sterling for instance”

    Note that – “for instance”. It could be floating, it could be pegged to the Euro, the Dollar (any of them), the Martian Planet, all options give “control over much of its monetary policy” as you put it when you said we wouldn’t have that, and that can influence exchange rates.

  247. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m not advocating either pegged – or floating. It was an example.

    I do want us to have our own currency for some years, particularly to start with. Only that way do we have control to handle the rapid growth of our economy.

  248. Chick McGregor says:

    At the risk of stating the obvious, although it sadly seems that might be required, the UK, with or without Scotland, will NOT get a deal with the EU which is similar to the present arrangement.
    Nowhere near it in fact.
    How could that possibly happen?

    If the EU entered into any deal in which the UK carried on as before or with only a tiny change, that would be the end of the European project. Think about it.

    And before the Britnats start cheering, I ask them to really, really, think what the repercussions of that would be, if not sooner then later.

    It would not be ‘vindictiveness’ on the rEU’s part, it would simply be altruistic pragmatism, that which needs to be done, for the greater good of the peoples of Europe.

    However, that will not, of course, stop the Britnat elite doing whatever they can, and they can do a lot, to create and foster a ‘Little Britain’ versus ‘Evil Europe’ siege mentality.

    This can, and therefore will, be used to try to erode the indy support in Scotland.

    I repeat again, the need for the Scottish Government to alert Europeans to this and encourage them to ‘Love Bomb’ Scotland.

  249. Phronesis says:

    This very enlightening interview of President Trump in the Washington Post today has been transcribed and annotated.It is not meant to be political satire but it’s difficult to accept that this is actually the President of the USA speaking.

    By Aaron Blake 26/01/17

    We’ve got problems;

    ‘PRESIDENT TRUMP: It has periodically hit me. And it is a tremendous magnitude. And where you really see it is when you’re talking to the generals about problems in the world. And we do have problems in the world. Big problems. The business also hits because the — the size of it. The size’

    The wall;

    ‘PRESIDENT TRUMP: All it is, is we’ll be reimbursed at a later date from whatever transaction we make from Mexico. Now, I could wait a year and I could hold off the wall. But I wanna build the wall. We have to build the wall. We have to stop drugs from pouring in. We have to stop people from just pouring into our country. We have no idea where they’re from. And I campaigned on the wall. And it’s very important. But that wall will cost us nothing….We wanna have a very stable, very solid Mexico. Even more solid than it is right now. And they need it also. Lots of things are coming across Mexico that they don’t want. I think it’s going to be a good thing for both countries. And I think the relationship will be better than ever before’

    (the president of Mexico has cancelled next week’s visit to the White House)

    Children of illegals –worry not;

    ‘PRESIDENT TRUMP: They shouldn’t be very worried. They are here illegally. They shouldn’t be very worried. I do have a big heart. We’re going to take care of everybody. We’re going to have a very strong border. We’re gonna have a very solid border. Where you have great people that are here that have done a good job, they should be far less worried. We’ll be coming out with policy on that over the next period of four weeks’

    The CIA love me;

    ‘PRESIDENT TRUMP: Okay, so I’m glad you asked. So, I went to the CIA, my first step. I have great respect for the people in intelligence and CIA. I’m — I don’t have a lot of respect for, in particular one of the leaders. But that’s okay. But I have a lot of respect for the people in the CIA.
    That speech was a home run. That speech, if you look at Fox, okay, I’ll mention you — we see what Fox said. They said it was one of the great speeches. They showed the people applauding and screaming and — and they were all CIA. There was — somebody was asking Sean — “Well, were they Trump people that were put–” we don’t have Trump people. They were CIA people.
    That location was given to me. Mike Pence went up before me, paid great homage to the wall. I then went up, paid great homage to the wall. I then spoke to the crowd. I got a standing ovation…

    People loved it. They loved it. They gave me a standing ovation for a long period of time. They never even sat down, most of them, during the speech. There was love in the room. You and other networks covered it very inaccurately. I hate to say this to you and you probably won’t put it on but turn on Fox and see how it was covered. And see how people respond to that speech.
    That speech was a good speech. And you and a couple of other networks tried to downplay that speech. And it was very, very unfortunate that you did. The people of the CIA loved the speech’

    Torture & off with their heads – what’s the problem?;

    ‘PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, I have a general who I have great respect for, General Mattis, who said — I was a little surprised — who said he’s not a believer in torture. As you know, Mr. Pompeo was just approved, affirmed by the Senate. He’s a fantastic guy, he’s gonna be the head of the CIA.

    And you have somebody fabulous as opposed to the character that just got out who didn’t — was not fabulous at all. And he will I think do a great job. And he is — you know, I haven’t gone into great detail. But I will tell you I have spoken to others in intelligence. And they are big believers in, as an example, waterboarding…

    When they’re shooting — when they’re chopping off the heads of our people and other people, when they’re chopping off the heads of people because they happen to be a Christian in the Middle East, when ISIS is doing things that nobody has ever heard of since Medieval times, would I feel strongly about waterboarding?

    As far as I’m concerned we have to fight fire with fire. Now, with that being said I’m going with General Mattis. I’m going with my secretary because I think Pompeo’s gonna be phenomenal. I’m gonna go with what they say. But I have spoken as recently as 24 hours ago with people at the highest level of intelligence. And I asked them the question, “Does it work? Does torture work?” And the answer was, “Yes, absolutely.”…
    You never saw heads chopped off until a few years ago.

    Now they chop ’em off and they put ’em on camera and they send ’em all over the world. So we have that and we’re not allowed to do anything. We’re not playing on an even field. I will say this, I will rely on Pompeo and Mattis and my group. And if they don’t wanna do, that’s fine. If they do wanna do, then I will work for that end’

    A charmingly simple solution to Middle East woes;

    ‘PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, we should’ve kept the oil when we got out. And, you know, it’s very interesting, had we taken the oil, you wouldn’t have ISIS because they fuel themselves with the oil. That’s where they got the money. They got the money from leaving — when we left, we left Iraq, which wasn’t a government. It’s not a government now’

    One of his first symbolic acts as president was to repeal Obamacare. President Trump should be mindful of the advice of this scientific panel of experts who understand the link between health provision and socio-economic well-being.

    ‘Our nation’s founders wrote that all people are created equal with the right to “life,
    liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Therefore, the principles of equality and equal opportunity are deeply rooted in our national values, and in the notion that everyone has a fair shot to succeed with hard work. However, our nation’s social and economic well-being depends in part on the wellbeing of its communities, and many are facing great and evolving challenges.

    Across the country, there are communities with insufficient access to jobs, adequate transit, safe and affordable housing, parks and open space, healthy food options, or quality education—the necessary conditions and opportunities to fully thrive. This lack of opportunity is particularly evident in the disparities that exist in health status and health outcomes between different zip codes or census tracts.

    Other wealthy developed countries outperform the United States in health status, despite our high level of spending on health care. For example, not only does the nation’s life expectancy when compared to peer nations lag behind, but life expectancy in the United States also varies dramatically—by roughly 15 years for men and 10 years for women—depending on income level, education, and where a person lives. In the poorest parts of the country, rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, stroke, and kidney disease are substantially higher than in more affluent regions.

    Tragically, infant mortality, the number of deaths under 1 year of age per 1,000 live births, is much higher in certain populations. In 2013, among non-Hispanic whites 5.06 infants of every 1,000 live births died before their first birthday; among African Americans, that rate was double, at 11.1 per 1,000. Rates were also higher for Native American (7.61 per1,000) and Puerto Rican (5.93 per 1,000) infants, as well as for low income white infants in the Appalachian region, where in 2012, 7.6 infants died for every 1,000 live births. Research has shown that access to health care is important, but not sufficient to improve health outcomes…To change the current state will require addressing the underlying social, economic, and environmental factors that contribute to health inequities’

    National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2017. Communities in action: Pathways to health equity. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. doi: 10.17226/24624.

    Building the wall, nuclear proliferation, climate change denial aren’t viable solutions to humanity’s greatest challenges-inequalities, global warming,developing sustainable food and energy resources.

  250. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Sorry, catching up. I’d remembered the poster and checked where, and he seems to be quite impartial which politicians he criticises, both Holyrood and Westminster. There’s a good few NO voters I talked to during the Ref were the same, just didn’t like politicians. I did use the line “Vote YES and get rid of a load of politicians then”, no idea if it worked.

    Anyway, talking about the people I know who’d like to abolish Holyrood, haven’t talked with them for years, but they’d also get out of the EU, vote to abolish the House of Lords, and probably vote to abolish the House of Commons too. They just don’t like politicans, and gravy trains, though they’d probably like to go back to town councils. I can often sympathise with their view! Bit of an anarchist perhaps, then I realise I wouldn’t want to be a politician and somebody has to do it.

  251. Lenny Hartley says:

    People carrier, Paula

    Anglo Saxon. House of Lords , England – ASHOLE

  252. Gfaetheblock says:


    Didn’t think you were a mind reader, just that if you were making arguments about economic policy, you might be literate in economic terms. Some light reading for you.

    A new scot’s currency now. Ok, so that will mean that we have higher borrowing costs, lower credit rating, exchange rate various with both euro and pound, and this is all assuming that entry to EU without € adoption. This sounds even worse, and really not sure how this would generate ‘rapid growth in our economy’?

    Indy ref 1 floundered on this arguement, and brexit makes it harder to stitch together, without admitting the risk, cost and pain of the transition.

  253. ian m says:

    When England are out of the EU
    And Scotland are in I wonder how much business will be available to Scotland that had previously gone to England
    I am talking about EU stuff that England won’t qualify for?
    No more England first and a few crumbs for the Jocks

  254. HandandShrimp says:


    That is just surreal

    I am particularly taken by the notion that the US should have taken the oil with them when they left Iraq…in what a big 10 gallon can? Iraq has reserves of 140 billion barrels of oil. The man is only tangentially connected to reality.

  255. yesindyref2 says:

    Very kind of you, I’m sure, however, it’s not me that said there would be “barriers to trade”, it’s you. In case you forget what you said, understandable I suppose, here it is:

    “But there is a basic tenet here that any barriers to trade is bad. So putting a barrier between Scotland and England, who are huge trading partners, will be bad for both economies.”

    My answer to your vague assertion was quite pertinent:

    Seriously? You expect Maggie May to build a Trump Wall?

    and my second “No, sorry, I’m not a mind-reader.“.

    It’s not for me to make your argument, I genuinely am not a mind reader, it’s for you to make some specific factual reasons relevant to Scotland and the rUK, and so far you’ve failed to do so.

    The rest of your posting is as much an unsubstantiated vague assertion as your first is. Some vague stuff about how a currency is bad bad bad. Oh dear, you’ll have to do much better than that.

    But from your “and this is all assuming that entry to EU without € [euro] adoption“, you don’t seem to have even the basics required for your Project Fear 2 attempt. Try checking “ERM II” as your starter for 10. Here’s some homework for you:

  256. Black Donald says:

    I can’t believe the distribution of Scottish exports is being used as an argument against independence. The 80:20 alleged split makes a very negative comment on the management of the Scottish economy by Westminster.

    All our eggs are in one basket. It is a basket that is optimally bad. England is a country with massive debts which is withdrawing from from its main market.

    It is like investing 80% of your portfolio in the company on the Stock exchange which has the largest debt, with the remainder invested wisely over a number of companies. It is a recipe for disaster.

    Most of the project fear threats if we voted yes came to pass anyway after we voted no. I believe if we vote no again, these exports will evaporate. This will be due to reduced demand from an economically challenged England. Also the source of our exports will be removed when the inevitable ‘Dresden’ option is applied to Scotland after the No victory, with companies moving their operations south and more Longannet type closures. The ability of Scotland to exist as a separate nation must be eliminated to preserve the ‘Unitary State’.

    There if an urgent need to diversify our exports. This will only happen with a Yes vote in Indyref2 and the preservation of our place in the Single Market within a welcoming EU.

  257. Hermodr says:

    Hi all! This evening I had a political discussion with my parents which was lengthier and more detailed than we’ve had in years – great progress for our relationship to be honest! They are pretty staunchly unionist (they don’t seem too fussed about the UK being an unequal partnership) but also of the opinion that brexit is a terrible idea. Basically, they believe both options that they will be forced to choose between are bad – however, they are currently much more likely to stick with UK.

    They seemed pretty convinced that Scotland would not be allowed to stay in the EU and mentioned two main reasons, which I’m sure you’ve all heard before. First, the Spanish veto – now I’m fairly certain this is nonsense and that this will be proved incorrect before IndyRef2. Second, “lack of a central bank” or something like that. What is this about and is it a fair criticism, or unfounded?

    No-one’s ever left the EU before and I have faith that the EU will prove flexible in maintaining the status of its citizens (in Scotland) who want to stay. However, my parents don’t share this faith. Any tips for stuff to bring up next time at the dinner table is very welcome!

  258. yesindyref2 says:

    For the Spanish one Nana posted this earlier:

    For the second, setting up a central bank isn’t rocket science, Scotland would need a minimum of £7.5 billion of reserves to support our own currency, there’s no maximum perhaps an optimum of £15 billion if achievable, but £10 billion would be sufficient. This comparing to the current reserves of all countries that have a currency in proportion their GDP. Current figures in USD are here:

    The UK currently has £120 billion in reserves, Scotland is 1/12th of the UK in terms of population, so a straight population split of movable assets would give us £10 billion – there we are, there’s the neccessary amount. Unless we get a split of assets of course, we don’t take a share of debt (anticipating what they might ask).

    Potentially add to that the £4 billion in giants (£1m pound banknote in sterling) and titans (£100m pound banknote) the Bank of England holds on a one to one basis to backup our Scottish notes in circulation, the £4 billion owned by the three Scottish note issuing banks, Royal Bank, Bank and Clydesdale, and it’s up to £14 billion.

  259. yesindyref2 says:

    Total moveable assets would be a lot more of course, I skipped a few words, I should have pointed out that the £10 billion was a share of the Bank of England Reserves.

    Just to complicate things to make it more accurate, BoE reserves aren’t all in terms of currency or gold – hence the use of total movable assets. That’s probably confusing but hey, it is late at night and I’m getting on like greased lighning with my annual accounts this time so my mind’s not really on it!

  260. Liz g says:

    Hemordr @ 12.18
    For a complete overview of the situation with Spain,the Wee Ginger Dug is yer man.
    He has lived there and is fluent in Spanish so there’s no “miss”translation of the articles.
    Buisness for Scotland also are good at the financial stuff,you would find more than just banking.
    Lots about the economy too, which you had said last time was the main concern for your parents.
    Good luck.

  261. Hermodr says:

    Thanks a lot! Not sure it’ll prevail in this particular instance, but hoping to chat with a lot of No voters in the next year or two.

  262. yesindyref2 says:

    The Unionists are putting it about that Denmark and Norway, similar sized countries ot Scotland, have £40 billion of reserves. It’s a red herring, and NOT comparing like to like. It’d take too long to go into, but hopefully of they come up with that one you can always say you’re still checking it out.

  263. Rookiescot says:

    Ukiplands economy will already be reeling from the double whammy of Brexit and the loss of 10% of its GDP when Scotland leaves (its their pound and they have to keep it).
    Would they be stupid enough to start some kind of trade embargo with their closest neighbor?
    Also if they do start some kind of trade war it will be with the entire EU (given Scotland will be a member).
    Even unionists are not that stupid.

  264. Steambam says:

    Trump says “A Nation is not a nation without borders”.

    Anyone else wonder how he might feel about Indyref2?

    Let my people go, May, or you don’t get your trade Deal?

  265. Steambam says:

    Echoing Winfrey McCartney’s comments regarding Joanna Cherry on Brillo Pads politics show, I’m surprised her figure of £52 billion per annum – accepted by Neil – for England’s trade with Scotland hasn’t been more widely quoted, as it’s the obvious response to “Independence would be putting £46bn of export trade to England at risk”.

    Should rUK attempt a trade embargo with an independent Scotland I’m certain we could find other EU trading partners desperate to fill the gap.

    Recommend watching that episode of the Politics show. IMHO Joanna wiped the floor with the old ligger, even getting him to agree on air that wee Ruthie and ‘Lord’ Darling had promised continued EU membership in return for a No vote in 2014.

  266. bjsalba says:

    @People Carrier

    Here is another (with inspiration from John Oliver)

    DUK DisUnited Kingdom

    then thinking politically correctly

    DUMS DisUnited Monarchial State.

    Maybe we could persduade the RevStu have a poll for Wingers to rank them. Maybe even with several categories: most appropriate, most amusing etc. He could have it up on a slow news day.

  267. Soutron says:

    All total shite re indy Scot currency gfaetheblock. A sovereign (floating) currency issuing government can never run out of thay currency. ‘Borrowing’ costs and credit ratings are irrelevant. Yes you’d probably expect the Scot pound to depreciate initially but it would likely overtake Sterling. Onviously there are ways round that if it’s problematic.

  268. Richard MacKinnon says:

    yesindyref2 2;53

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    @Richard MacKinnon
    Hopefully that was a “Yes” to voting for Independence, rather than just a “Yes” to removing a layer of government, or even “Yes” to both!

    Stick around anyway 🙂

  270. mike d says:

    Bobnugent 26th 7.43pm.bob i think we all know that the ukip voters in Scotland come from the lower end of the ‘follow follow ‘gene pool.

  271. Macandroid says:

    @ Mrs Cloudy

    I have heard that Scottish ports were sold off by U.K. Gov and therefore privatised.

    Compulsory purchase and reinvestment would be in order.

  272. Fred says:

    Today Theresa is down for Bush-craft lessons with Donald at the White House!

  273. Gfaetheblock says:

    Well, one thing this post has confirmed is that economics is complex but Scotland seems to be blessed with some of the great thinkers of our time.

  274. Mike says:

    Interesting thing happened.
    This document has been altered since yesterday.

    As early as yesterday this statement was written at the bottom of that document in place of the present statement regarding exports to the US which wasnt.


    I actually cut and pasted that statement from that document less than 3 days ago in order to present it as evidence in online discussions.

    I like to think that document was deliberately altered as a result of that use.

    Maybe not but I wouldn’t put it past them.

  275. yesindyref2 says:

    I didn’t look at the time, but the previous year’s version of that page is available via wayback, and has the paragraph you quote. I think it’s a little ambiguous, and would say the ScotGov rewrote the last couple of paragraphs to be more straightforward. Your quoted sentence is now in the last but one paragraph: “Exports to the rest of the UK accounted for 63% of this total, EU exports accounted for 16% and non-EU exports 21%.” and is also in the infographic on the page anyway, as it was the year before.

    So no, I don’t think there’s any dodgy business, just clarification and improvement. And who can complain about that?

    This year’s:

    Last years’s (July 2016 snapshot):

  276. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah! I’ve just noticed that this year’s has 63% whereas the year before was 64%. So it’s pretty obvious that that last paragraph you quoted was accidentally left in when they amended the document for this year’s figures (2015).

    So no, no deception, just an error in document production, probably indeed corrected because of its online use.

    By the way, I have criticised ScotGov for not keeping online versions – specially GERS, and having a tag “updated version 27th January 2017 – previous incorrect version here – link”.

    It’s not just “Unionists” that get caught out by this 🙁

  277. ScottieDog says:

    “A new scot’s currency now. Ok, so that will mean that we have higher borrowing costs, lower credit rating, exchange rate various with both euro and pound, and this is all assuming that entry to EU without € adoption. This sounds even worse, and really not sure how this would generate ‘rapid growth in our economy’?”


    Higher borrowing costs.
    We have heard how interest rates on govt debt will go up if that govt goes further into debt and it hasn’t happened. This is only relevant if a govt DOESN’T issue its own currency.
    Look around at record levels of sovereign debt (of nations who float there currency) and you will see that interest rates are at record lows.

    Credit rating..
    Yes the ratings agencies look to control countries with this crap. Here’s a fact.
    Shortly before the financial crisis the ratings agencies were giving Japan a ‘junk status’ below a country it was giving emergency aid to. The agencies don’t like the fact that Japan was happily continuing to spend and increase its sovereign debt (with little effect). The same agencies were giving AAA ratings to Fanny and Fred and any other corporation that lined their pockets.

    As for currency variation. That’s what happens. It happened in Iceland when the Icelandic govt went into spend mode to stimulate its economy. The kroner devalued against other currencies. People reduced their import consumption. At the sameness time there was a very positive effect on icelands exports. Within 18 months the currency had rebalanced and Iceland has some of the lowest unemployment and highest standards of living in Europe.

    Inward investment generates demand which creates economic growth.

    A country with a floating currency and a central bank can set whatever interest rates it wants on its bonds.
    If no one purchases them then it can purchase them itself by setting up something like say an asset purchase facility.
    Sounds bizarre but it’s exactly what the UK has done to the tune of £445 billion. That the amount of uk sovereign debt the Bank Of England owns simply by marking up the computer.

  278. Dennistoun Denizen says:

    First point: rUK are still our biggest export market because for centuries we were in a captive client relationship with them, largely cut off from direct external links and having to go through England to reach the rest of the world. If Scotland is cut off from the European single market this will exacerbate our dependence on the UK market. We’ll be monopolised by one increasingly insular market.

    Second point: Many of our exports to Europe exit through English ports and are counted as UK exports. So the figures aren’t necessarily accurate.

  279. scottieDog says:

    If you want to confuse a mainstream economist ask the the question..

    How does one borrow in a currency which doesn’t yet exist?

    The answer is,
    It can’t.
    Reserves have to be issued by the central bank before they can be turned into bonds.

    In other words, the debt need never be issued in the first place

  280. Mike says:


    Accidently left in? From a previous years edition? If the document was good enough as a “previous years edition” why did it need to be amended when the figures are the exact same?
    Don’t the trade figures alter at all year on year?
    And since when did the Scottish Government become responsible for Scotland Office publications?
    Do you have a link to the “previous years edition”?

  281. Gfaetheblock says:

    Scottie dog

    Thanks for the response, the ratings agencies have a poor track record around the financial crash, but this does not stop them being important nor the fact that they will look at a new country with a new currency as a riskier proposition than the U.K.

    Currency variation happens, yes, but it adds uncertainty and cost to trade. I do business in U.K. and RoI and the need to work in currency variations is a cost risk. Many businesses will take exchange rate options to insure against this risk, which cost money.

  282. scottieDog says:


    But you immediately assume that scotland’s currency would be volatile. When you have a back stop of exports like scotland would then we would have a far more stable and balanced economy than england.

    A ponzi economy of creating credit money and having the public back trillions in derivatives is volatility on stilts.

    The ratings agencies were shown to be part of the corrupt neoliberal framework back in 2008..
    This is a good read..

  283. gus1940 says:

    Given that companies publish details of their accounts in their Annual Reports would the following be possible:-

    Select a company Tesco say and request the following information:-

    How much PAYE do they send to HMRC in respect of their Scottish operation.

    How much NI ( Employers and Employees) do they send to HMRC in respect of their Scottish operations.

    How much Corporation Tax do they send to HMRC in respect of their Scottish operations.

    How much duty is paid by customers in Scotland in respect of Alcohol and Tobacco sales.

    How much VAT is paid by their Scottish customers ( completely different to how much VAT the company pays in respect of Scottish sales).

    For those selling fuel how much Tax and Duty is paid in respect of their Scottish operations.

    A similar exercise carried out for all companies HQd in England which carry on business in Scotland could produce some interesting figures when aggregated and compared with GERS.

  284. yesindyref2 says:

    What they’re doing is having that page as the latest year’s figures, which is fair enough – it means people can get the latest figures without having to search through. Mostly that’s what people would want, except for political purposes. I run my business websites, and the pages always have the latest prices! But sometimes when you update a page you miss out bits, and then correct them later. It’s very common, you’ll see it sometimes on online sites you buy from.

    Anyway, there’s a certain blogger not neccessarily in favour of Independence 🙂 who used that link, and in the spirit of friendship posted this there:

    Here’s last year’s page (2014 figures) -(July 2016 snapshot):

    Here’s this year’s (2015 figures)

    You’re very welcome to give the ScotGov stick for this. I don’t think it’s deception, but it’s very very very annoying. Version control should be made public.“.

    I meant what I said later in that blog – I too have been caught out quoting figures and the link (e.g. GERS), only to find out that they no longer match. It is very annoying as it “discredits” you – and that’s me as an Indy supporter. It does have a date on the page, but I think it’s actually the wrong date – it’s the date the updated incorrect version went up perhaps, not the date of the latest update.

    I’ve had websites since the mid-90s, the days of a Demon TAM when webspace was included. It was the golden rule to put “Page last updated on X at Y”, in fact some people had macros to do it automatically. Having said that, I don’t do it these days on my wordpress blog 🙁

  285. PJ says:

    There’s no reason for the Scottish pound to be volatile. The Irish pegged the Irish Punt to Sterling for decades (“You can’t use the pound?” Tell the Irish, they didn’t ask for permission). Before they switched to the euro the Irish punt was let float and it rose above Sterling.

    “Oh, but what if the banks failed?”, (Scotland is too poor to bail them out) — a common argument. The simple answer is that “Too Big To Fail” is a bad idea and the days of taxpayers bailing out banks are coming to an end. Banks that represent a risk to taxpayers need to be broken up so that the risk is borne only by those who have loaned them money to gamble with.

    Ireland has successfully diversified its exports away from the UK. The UK now accounts for 15% of Irish exports and that number is falling steadily (down from over 50%). Scotland is far better placed to do what Ireland has done than Ireland ever was. It has energy resources Ireland doesn’t.

    Scotland Ireland trade could be worth a few % points of GDP, and EU substituting Scottish for for UKIPtopia exports a few more.

    The Scots are being told “you can’t / you are too small / we’re better together”, everything but “I’ll kill myself if you leave me”. People should recognize this for what it is: an abusive relationship, not one of equals.

    It’s clear from the “We (ie, the English) have voted and you are leaving–whether you like it or not” rhetoric.

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