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Waiting on the guns

Posted on October 02, 2016 by

The starting pistol hasn’t actually been fired on the two-year Brexit process yet, but now we have a clear statement of when it will be: this morning on The Andrew Marr Show, the Prime Minister pledged that it would happen before the end of next March.

When she gave a speech to the Conservative conference later, Theresa May did even more than that. By the common consensus of the punditariat – whatever that’s worth these days – May’s message was that the UK was heading for the “hard” version of Brexit, with the single market sacrificed for control of borders.

(We might end up broke, in other words, but at least we’ll be good old British broke, with none of those awful smelly foreign Euro-Johnnies around to see it.)

And nobody was getting a sick note.


And for supporters of independence, that’s about as good as news gets.

Many gloating Unionists – and some of the more cool-headed Nats – have speculated that a hard Brexit is the worst option for the Yes movement, on the grounds that it greatly complicates the decision to be taken in any second indyref.

Their argument is basically that as Scotland does far more trade (somewhere roughly in the region of four times as much) with the rest of the UK than it does with the rest of Europe, it would face enormous risk in protecting that trade should it seek to throw in its lot with Europe rather than an isolated Britain, because the EU doesn’t allow member countries to conduct trade deals unilaterally with outside parties.

But that’s a somewhat curious position, because the entire point of the two years that would follow the invoking of Article 50 is to do that deal. Should a second indyref be scheduled for spring 2019 – as we posited just a couple of weeks ago – as a sort of last-chance escape clause for a Scotland that voted to stay in two unions but now has to pick its favourite, then it would be a choice between two known situations.

Because if an independent Scotland was going to be staying in the EU, then the trade deal with the rUK would already be in place, because the EU would just have negotiated it for us.

And if – as is now the prevailing wisdom – that deal turned out to be basically “Bend over, Britain, this is going to hurt you a lot more than it hurts us”, then the economic arguments in favour of independence would be the strongest they’re ever likely to be in the lifetime of anyone reading this site.

(The downside of a hard Brexit focused on immigration controls, obviously, would be the presumption of border posts between England and Scotland, a very unpopular idea. But the Tories have repeatedly insisted that they intend to keep the Irish border a free and open one, and in those circumstances it’s almost impossible to create a sellable political case for Scotland being treated differently. Of course, they could be lying about Ireland, but either way we’ll know by 2019.)

The technical difficulties of ensuring that an independent Scotland WOULD be staying in the EU, of course, can’t be dismissed with an airy wave. The EU’s protocols don’t allow for formal negotiations while Scotland remains part of the UK.

But if anything characterises the way the EU does business it’s pragmatism, and if both the EU and Scotland wanted Scotland to stay in – and for that fact to be known at the time of the referendum – then that’s what would happen.

(And it WOULD be what they’d both want, because the SNP will still be the Scottish Government and Holyrood still has a clear majority of pro-indy, pro-EU votes.)

Nor can we complacently assume that Yes 2019 would be a slam-dunk. The problem of the Yes side’s awkward squad who also voted Leave is one that looms large. But again, by 2019, with a brutally punitive Brexit deal on the table, staying with Brussels might come to look very much the lesser of two evils.

This site remains of the view that it’s simply not credible for Brexit to happen without a second indyref. Two conflicting votes in Scotland – to stay in the UK, and by a far bigger margin to stay in the EU – are a circle of contradiction which cannot otherwise be politically squared. (And fighting for Scottish independence from outside the EU is a doomed project. We might as well give up at that point.)

There are a great many unknowns on the path ahead. But it’s a universally-accepted view within the media – which is, as we know, very far from meaning it’s actually true – that the economy, far above all other concerns, was the overwhelming weakness in the Yes case and the primary reason for its defeat.

If that’s accurate, then the second referendum will be a very different game indeed. If Brexit is to be hard, then so will be the argument for the UK. The No camp’s deadliest weapon just changed hands.

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    1. 02 10 16 20:56

      Waiting on the guns | speymouth

    437 to “Waiting on the guns”

    1. jimnarlene says:

      Tick tock, as they say; the countdown has begun.

    2. brian lucey says:

      From the outside looking into the UK, as an Irish and European person, with a PhD from Stirling. several things strike me about the Scottish situations

      a) Theres an apparent unwillingness to accept that independence may well come at a cost, and that cost is upfront.

      b) If the SNP REALLY wants independence, then call an election, stand on a “we will declare UDI” platform and see. In other words, move parliament to a scottish constitutional convention and move on with it.

      c) An independent scotland outside the EU will have to come in. A scotland that becomes independent while still a part of the EU (Thats before 1/4/2019 it seems) has a decent chance of staying in the EU

      d) new entrants must accept the Euro. If your a big state like Sweden or Poland you can engineer technical reasons to “fail’ the tests. Scotland wont be big. So you will be Euro bound. That answers your currency question

      I wish Scotland well. my personal view, and my view as a professor of finance and economics, is that an independent scotland in the EU will be less worse off than a region of a brexited UK.

    3. rmfbrown says:

      In many respects, we should be thanking the Prime Minister for the clarity, because now, as you say, everybody has to choose their favourite union.

      The entertainment will be provided by Labour’s North British branch office, as they tie themselves in knots over this.

      I fully expect to see a few Labour grandees come over to the independence side.

      It’s independence or bust now for Scottish Labour…

    4. heedtracker says:

      Sometimes the biggest change presents the biggest opportunity.

    5. maureen says:

      Pretty much either or, make your mind up time. It’s not a hard decision to make.

    6. Rock says:

      “The EU’s protocols don’t allow for formal negotiations while Scotland remains part of the UK.”

      In my view, Scotland should be fully independent by 31st December 2017 to get the best possible terms out of both the rUK and the EU.

    7. Onwards says:

      “The problem of the Yes voters who also voted Leave is one that looms large”

      This could be solved with a double question.

      1. Should Scotland be a sovereign nation state? YES/NO
      2. Should we be part of the EU. YES/NO

      Otherwise we are fighting a battle on 2 fronts.
      I want to remain in Europe, but a referendum promising to automatically rejoin will be hard to win when a million Scots voted to leave.

    8. heedtracker says:

      brian lucey, for the holder of a uni of Stirling doctorate, your grammar’s is as bad as your economic forcasterising.

    9. Angus Anderson says:

      Bit of a dilemma for Ms Dugdale and Mr Rennie now. Sell a hard Brexit or a complete u-turn.

    10. Lollysmum says:

      Interesting times ahead for all of us.

    11. handclapping says:

      All we have to do is make Brexit seem a lot worse than Indy and we are home and dry.

      Having lived in a Britain outside the EU and with no oil, I can affirm we will have history on our side to shew the chaos a hard Brexit would lead to, the dead unburied, electricity rationing, inflation at 22%, which we can contrast with a more optimistic picture of us in charge of our own destiny.

      As someone once said “Bring it on!”

    12. Chitterinlicht says:

      Its coming.

      Last chance for me i am afraid to see a Scotland free from Westminster.

      Staying in EU free from UK is best option for Scotland as Wings absolutely nail on the head that a trade deal will already be in place. Rest of negotiations will be interesting to put it mildy but doable like any divorce. The economic position will be more certain then it up to us

      Alex Salmond stating late 2018 for next #indyref, Wings spring 2019.

      It will be between these dates that is for sure.

      Lets get ready.

    13. Dan Dare says:

      Around £20bn of the £48.4bn of trade to rUK is hydrocarbon products which the rUK would likely continue to purchase as it is cheaper to continue to buy product locally than ship coarser product from further away.
      This means in effect that the trade in other non-hydrocarbon based product is only up to twice the value of EU trade. Taking the fact that much of the trade would still require to be dealt with, the rUK would in all likelihood still purchase those as well, as these include water, electricity, whisky and foodstuffs.
      After those items, the actual trade level is on a par with EU volumes at risk….

    14. Alastair Wright says:

      From a personal perspective, I can now look forward to the possibility that there won’t be any ‘full English breakfast’ on the Med holiday.

    15. Willie Belford says:

      Brian Lucey the Scottish Government cannot simply call an election as we have fixed term parliaments, normally four years, but this one is for five years to prevent Holyrood and Wesrminster elections being contemporaneous.

      So the earliest the SNP could stand on a UDI platform would be 2021, too late to retain EU membership.

    16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “we will declare UDI”

      BZZT! You lose the game.

    17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This could be solved with a double question.

      1. Should Scotland be a sovereign nation state? YES/NO
      2. Should we be part of the EU. YES/NO”

      No, that’s insane, because you then have to conduct two separate and totally contradictory Yes campaigns at the same time.

    18. brian lucey says:

      Its in economics, not belle lettres . As a proud Irish man I refuse to bow the knee to english rules… 🙂
      Why do you consider my forecasting to be off?

    19. Rock says:

      brian lucey,

      ” d) new entrants must accept the Euro. If your a big state like Sweden or Poland you can engineer technical reasons to “fail’ the tests. Scotland wont be big. So you will be Euro bound. That answers your currency question”

      “my view as a professor of finance and economics”

      If I remember right, The Rev. Stuart Campbell has stated many times that the EU cannot force any member to join the ERM.

      Without joining the ERM, you cannot adopt the Euro.

      Your statement that “new entrants must accept the Euro” therefore seems false.

      Perhaps you could clarify.

    20. jimnarlene says:

      I’m no economics expert, but no nation can be forced to use the Euro, regardless their size or influence.

    21. bobajock says:

      Cant wait for work tomorrow. Many have been spinning on the not quite Brexit pinhead stating that they will wait until its announced formally.

      Pop. Its gone. Watch the finance sector freak out at hard brexit. We have already purchased office space in Frankfurt. 50% EU (non UK) staff can move almost instantly. The rest easily.

      Me. Stuck till the end, or saved by Scottish EU passport.

    22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “In my view, Scotland should be fully independent by 31st December 2017”

      The chances of that happening are seventy thousand billion trillion to one against. And I’m sugar-coating that. You’ve got more chance of winning every lottery on Earth simultaneously while being struck by lightning and a meteor.

    23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If your a big state like Sweden or Poland you can engineer technical reasons to “fail’ the tests. Scotland wont be big.”

      You don’t need reasons. You just need to not choose to join ERM2.

    24. Bill McDermott says:

      # I understood that in adopting the euro you had to have a sovereign currency for two years and even then your deficit would feature in the deliberation. Sweden hasn’t adopted the euro because that second consideration is voluntary.

      On a separate issue over the possibility of a hard border, I could live with that, since it would be little different from let’s say the Spanish/Gibraltar situation. All you need is a lot of tollbooths. In any case that would not be our worry. That would be a matter for Westminster in their determination to ‘take back control’ of their borders.

      I would have thought also that it would have zero support from all the hauliers in England.

    25. IainC says:

      I’d be interested to know how many of the Scots who voted to leave, particularly those who also voted yes, feel that they are getting what they voted for. For me, Indyref2 is about which union we want to be a part of, nothing else. Isolation is not a serious option, although others may differ. Interesting times.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      One aspect of Brexit, which the Tories’ sense of entitlement and exceptionalism doesn’t allow them to consider, is the benefits to the EU of a hard exit. The result will be additional costs for trading with the UK, yes, however this can be offset against the gains of manufacturing and financial companies leaving the UK to move into the EU.

      Financial services in London are worth a fortune in tax. If half of this moves to Dublin, or Frankfurt, or Edinburgh, it will be a nice boost to the EU. Similarly if car production relocates.

      The EU may want to punish the UK to set an example showing leaving causes pain. They may also see it as an opportunity to poach economic activity!

      As all the realities of Brexit become apparent, it should be obvious that being part of the crumbling UK is definitely the poorer choice.

    27. handclapping says:

      You’ve got more chance of winning every lottery on Earth simultaneously while being struck by lightning and a meteor.
      I’ve heard of a phyrric victory; do you have a shrthand name for that sort of luck?

    28. Giesabrek says:

      Sorry Brian Lucey, while I agree with your first 3 points, point D regarding “big states like Sweden and Poland” not needing to adopt the Euro, Sweden has the mighty big population of 9.53 million, not even double Scotland’s population.

      Granted Poland’s population is far larger at 38 million but it doesn’t detract from the fact that Sweden, as well as Denmark (popln 5.64 million, incredibly close to Scotland’s), are not in the Euro and can remain so indefinitely.

    29. Tricx says:

      Won’t the grand repeal act and article 50 once triggered , not end the union ?? Meaning no need for Indyref2 and Scotland being Independent in early 2017 .

    30. Taranaich says:

      Their argument is basically that as Scotland does far more trade (somewhere roughly in the region of four times as much) with the rest of the UK than it does with the rest of Europe

      Their argument is also a complete nonsense for another reason – because Scotland does not trade with anyone at present. Trade is reserved to Westminster, ergo international trading is dealt with on a UK level. You don’t call a subsidiary a trading partner.

      It’s another one of those sleights-of-hand British Nationalists use to fool people into thinking the UK is an equitable partnership, even as our Prime Minister explicitly refers to the UK as a “sovereign and independent country.”

    31. Adrian B says:

      UDI = Umpteen Daft Imperialists

    32. Derek B says:

      This is a good analysis of the situation. If I had one issue it would be that spring 2019 may be too soon for the true horrors of a hard brexit to have been realised.

      I was Yes/Leave. While I can only speak for myself, I don’t think that voters like me represent as big a problem as some might think. Why? Indy trumps Leave is why.

      I’d settle for the chance, and it’d be no more than that, to try and reform the EU from within rather than be trapped in a free marketeers wet dream of a post Brexit UK.

    33. muttley79 says:

      At this point I feel I have to be honest and admit I really, really did not want another independence referendum so soon after September 2014. The economic case was just not convincing at all. Brexit and its repercussions obviously changes things dramatically, but I am afraid to say I believe there are still major issues to address, currency, the collapse of the oil price, pensions etc.

      It is going to be a big risk to go for another independence referendum, if we lose there will be no further independence referendum either a) for a very long time, or b) there will never be another one. It is that important and serious. There will be no margin for error whatsoever. It will be do or die in a political sense.

    34. Andy Ellis says:

      Absolutely agree with Stu’s take on this. The SG and SNP can and must begin preparations to ensure that indyref2 takes place in a timescale which allows seamless entry into the EU. This presupposes intensive work, and a clear statement (in my view quickly) that the eventual brexit deal, whatever it is, can and will be validated via indyref2 in 2019 either before or close to the “leave” date. A Yes vote will be taken asa mandate for both independence and remaining within the EU. It cannot be outwith the ken of man to have such a seamless or fast track entry pre-agreed with the the EU; as an institution they have zero interest in turning Scotland away, or making continued Scottish membership an painless as possible.

      I’d also take issue with Brian Lucey’s point (d) above. Scotland will be in the same position as Sweden, or indeed any other new entrant vis-a-vis the Euro. There is no compulsion involved in membership, whatever the abstract commitment to joining at some undefined point in the future is. Any state simply needs to deliberately fail to meet ERM criteria on an ongoing basis. there is no desire or need for Scotland to be Euro bound in any timescale that needs bother us for the purposes of brexit or indyref2.

      We have (at most) two and a half years to make a better fist of the Yes case than was made for 2014. We need to make every single day count, and the SG & SNP need to step up to the plate and be quite clear; we WILL NOT be dictated to, we WILL NOT be taken out of the EU against our will, and we WILL NOT accept any attempt by Westminster to stop indyref2.

    35. galamcennalath says:

      Which would you prefer?

      1. iScotland using the Euro.


      2. Remain inside a totally fcked up UK.

      No brainier for me.

      The reality will most likely be iScotland using our own Scottish currency,

    36. brian lucey says:

      Accession to the Euro is mandatory
      Accession to the ERM2 is voluntary
      This is how the European system works , by fudge.

      Scotlands currency choices are
      a) Sterling – depreciation and no control over monetary policy.
      b) Poond or whatever – worse depreciaton but control over mn pol
      c) Euro – appreciation, no control over MP.

      In essence choose what part of the impossible trilemma you want to lose control over : exchange rates, capital flows or monetary policy . You cant have it all. Most of the debate has focused on the exchange rate, and to some extent the monetary policy, when its the capital flows that will be the real danger.

      As I say, I wish you well.

    37. heedtracker says:

      brian lucey says:
      2 October, 2016 at 8:25 pm
      Its in economics, not belle lettres . As a proud Irish man I refuse to bow the knee to english rules… ?
      Why do you consider my forecasting to be off?

      Well you need to be more specific as to why, “scotland in the EU will be less worse off than a region of a brexited UK..” Its rather important to get things thrashed out. Going by GERS and yoon culture led by the BBC, Scotland’s got a £15bn black hole deficit that’s made the region’s economics worse than poor Greece.

      Economically, soft Brexit or a fudged Brexit is going probably not to happen now. So Scots have to know the how and why the EU is better for them than the UK, especially the very plump and content Scots middle class.

      Part of May’s speech, lifted from Spectator

      ‘But we will seek the best deal possible as we negotiate a new agreement with the European Union.

      I want that deal to reflect the kind of mature, co-operative relationship that close friends and allies enjoy.

      I want it to include cooperation on law enforcement and counter-terrorism work.

      I want it to involve free trade, in goods and services.

      I want it to give British companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate in the Single Market – and let European businesses do the same here.

      But let me be clear. We are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration again. And we are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.’

      Got that. Its immigration control or nothing. Well not nothing, UKIP is coming. And UKIP can change everything in England. Look at what the SNP have done. Massed ranks of Westminster shire tories no longer stare across at massed ranks of SLabour slow eyed pot bellies.

      Also, it’s you’re not your, for you are:D

    38. Clootie says:

      @Brian Lucey

      …a strange statement statement for a PhD in finance and economics …” That Independence will come at an up front cost”. Very strange to make such an assertion without framing e.g. An initial cost / a sustained cost / a net gain over a longer period.
      However when b) came in with the UDI call a little voice screamed troll.

      I very much doubt an individual who studied to PhD standard in any subject would frame his observation as you have.

    39. brian lucey says:

      Andy Ellis
      “There is no compulsion involved in membership, whatever the abstract commitment to joining at some undefined point in the future is.”
      Nobody suggests compulsion. But the Maastricht treaty does make it a requirement. Here’s the question – say an independent scotland happens in late 2017, and is greeted warmly within the EU. BUT, the price, imagine, is accession to the Euro on an accelerated pace.. What then? FWIW the euro is a botched hames of a system. But if it were to become the price to be in the EU…
      IMHO as an outside observer these are the kinds of questions I dont really see being raised in the debate. Maybe they are but…

    40. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “say an independent scotland happens in late 2017, and is greeted warmly within the EU. BUT, the price, imagine, is accession to the Euro on an accelerated pace..”

      Absolutely none of that is happening.

    41. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I was Yes/Leave. While I can only speak for myself, I don’t think that voters like me represent as big a problem as some might think. Why? Indy trumps Leave is why.”

      That’s my gut feeling, but we can’t afford to take it for granted.

    42. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Won’t the grand repeal act and article 50 once triggered , not end the union ?? Meaning no need for Indyref2 and Scotland being Independent in early 2017.”


    43. brian lucey says:

      Denmark and Sweden negotiated those WITHIN the EU as a treaty annex. Scotland would be OUTSIDE seeking to come in.
      You wont have any card to play much beyond “oh god please save us” . That may come at a price. Decide early what is the maximum price to pay for independence. Thats the essence of my points. Because, there is a price. Theres always a price.

    44. Yesitis says:

      The next few months are going to be very interesting. It`s an increasingly ugly mess but I can`t help but think our hopelessly inept MSM will muddy the waters rather than hold the one`s who got us into the mess to account.

    45. galamcennalath says:

      IMO it’s not just timing of IndyRef2 and Indy in relation to the Brexit timetable, the two parallel constitutional process might be closely coupled.

      After all, IndyRef2 will be about EU citizens in part of the EU exercising their democratic right to remain in the EU as a member state. And possibly as a continuing member state.

      While the EU won’t interfere in a member’s internal affairs, that isn’t really what is developing here.

      I expect the EU to be more than just interested in events in Scotland. If we achieve a Yes vote prior to Brexit completion, then I would expect our Indy negotiations and rUK’s Brexit negotiations to have full EU involvement and to effectively have one integrated solution.

      In other words, I expect the EU to look after its citizens.

    46. Yet there will be Loon Yoons attempting to argue that England’s Green and Pleasant Land would stop trading with Scotland out of badness when we hold a second Independence Referendum.
      Now that we know the date for England’s Jonesborough mass suicide, I agree Stu; by spring ’19, we’ll still be in the EU and on returning a Yes vote this time, as a self governing member state.
      Nissan Toyota Jaguar Land Rover will migrate North for starters. Edinburgh will join Dublin and Frankfurt in welcoming the 70,000 finance and banking staff who will Brexit London.
      The Indyref should wait until we can see the whites of their eyes. Trading tariffs, borders, no free movement to Europe to take up a job, paying for holiday visas, wine prices up, and so on. Project Truth. Vote NO this time and live under the isolated wing of an English Tory government for a lifetime.
      The shoe is indeed on the other foot.

    47. Anagach says:

      “brian lucey says:

      d) new entrants must accept the Euro. If your a big state like Sweden or Poland you can engineer technical reasons to “fail’ the tests. Scotland wont be big. So you will be Euro bound. That answers your currency question”

      A PhD you say. Well who am I to argue.

      New entrants must sign up to join the Euro at some point in the future. That point is up to the joining country. So yes Euro bound, sometime between joining and the end of the Universe.

    48. John O says:

      Another great clear well written piece, I found this writen on the subject, may be worth a read.

    49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “It will be do or die in a political sense.”

      Of course it will. But you could wait a hundred years and never get a better chance than indy/EU Scotland versus hard-Brexit UK.

    50. ScottieDog says:

      im pretty sure that there is no requirement for Scotland to adopt the euro. Of course the EU could decide to make this one of its criteria in accepting Scotland as one of its members. We don’t really know exactly what terms they will offer.

      For my money, the EU needs all the good news stories it can get and for us a currency union is a very bad idea.

      The other thing here is that there seems to be this perception of our fate being in the hands of either the neoliberal institutions of Brussels or those of London. The fact is, our economic potential is way more than the sum total of 5 million people. This is the very reason London will fight dirty to keep us in the union and I believe the reason that the the EU will be very keen to include Scotland.

      The yoon press warned two years ago that an independent Scotland would be a threat to national security. Whilst that might be the case (if you see trident as part of that) the real worry in London is that a separate Scotland is a threat to their energy security. That is very real.

    51. Scott Borthwick says:

      I’m not sure the pro-Yes Leave voters are likely to be that big of a problem once the UK’s terrible leave deal is unveiled.

      Long before the Brexit Referendum (and the Independence Referendum), I would have placed myself in that category. However, my reasoning was based on what potentially would have been best for a Scotland that was already independent. In short, EFTA membership. That shot is not on the board for a post-Brexit UK, so the sensible approach would be to take one issue at a time. Of course, we have to bear in mind that we are Scots, so the sensible approach eludes us often.

    52. Robert Louis says:

      So, now the game has changed, and it must be said the REV’s analysis above, is very helpful.

      In what seems an effort to quell unrest within rabid anti EU Tory ranks, Theresa May has effectively played her hand early, both to the EU (who will be laughing their socks off) and the Scottish Government, who, like the EU, will tonight be laughing their socks off.

      Make no mistake, this brexit, will be one enormous disaster for England and Wales, or, to adopt the seemingly perennial phraseology in use these days by brexiteers, it will be

      I still find it hard to believe the UK Government is doing this, it is so freaking dumb, it beggars belief.

    53. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Denmark and Sweden negotiated those WITHIN the EU as a treaty annex. Scotland would be OUTSIDE seeking to come in.”

      (1) No, we wouldn’t. That’s the whole point. We’d be STAYING.

      (2) You don’t NEED an opt-out, even though some countries have them. All you need to do is not join ERM2, which is voluntary. I’ll get very irritable indeed if you keep ignoring that point. We’ve done this a thousand times.

    54. Edward Freeman says:

      I disagree with Professor Lucey that Scotland would be forced to adopt the euro. My own interpretation is that, legally speaking, no country can be obliged to adopt the euro. To try to force it on Scotland when, as the Professor says, Poland hasn’t adopted it would hardly be equitable.

      The other thing is that, if Scotland decides on independence before Brexit occurs, it would not have left the EU by that time and its relations with the EU would therefore continue to be governed by the treaties in place today between the UK and the EU (mutatis mutandis is the phrase that needs to be kept in mind). Scotland would therefore continue to benefit (?) from the same opt-outs that the UK currently has.

      I have some expertise in the area of treaty law, as it was one of my specialisms as a UN translator.

    55. tartanfever says:

      Scotland’s current trade exports need to be understood.

      Basically the UK has a horrible trade deficit because we have few exports (despite what you hear in the press). Our artificially inflated currency (which benefits the financiers in the city) makes our exports far too pricey.

      Hence why many of Scotland’s exports stay within the UK. UK exports are currently getting a little boost because of the £ drop in value which make them cheaper to buy, but this doesn’t help the City of London.

      Next time some unionist goes on about the apocalypse on Scotland’s exports if we became independent (like A. Massie esq) start asking some awkward questions about an over inflated currency we currently have and how that has demolished UK exports over the last 30 years in favour of a financial service industry that is about to come crashing down because of currency fears and the withdrawl of European Financial Passports.

      An independent Scotland should look at it’s own currency but peg it to the euro, not the £. That is the bigger market we must concentrate on.

    56. Artyhetty says:

      T.May, now with her well paid advisers, she will be hedging her bets on getting out before another independence referendum can be finalised, wgatever that takes. Ok, she signs art50, then it’s 2 years to do a deal, but, could brexit be finalised sooner?

      2019 seems a long way off, but if that is what it takes so be it. It’s like a game, slowly,slowly catchy monkey, ( if I have that right!) hopefully. A fabulous Scottish saying, that I only got to know about recently.

      Meanwhile the Scotgov have their work cut out don’t they, keeping a breast of things, and running a country within UKokian constraints, very tough.

    57. Ian Mackay says:

      When the UK triggers Article 50 by March 2017 it effectively becomes an EU member state with no influence on the EU council – basically a member in name only to facilitate a UK v EU27 scenario in the withdrawal.

      Article 50 clause 4:
      … the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

      My guess is that the EU27 would feel no obligation to prevent negotiation with the Scottish Govt. and that they could even make a formal decision to negotiate with Scotland over Westminster’s wishes.

      Whether this is done formally or informally the EU will make sure that the Scottish Govt. has enough ‘meat on the bones’ to present to the Scottish people for indyref2.

      Its in the EU’s interest for Scotland to remain a EU member. Imagine what a message that would send out to any exiteers around the EU; your country is at stake if you leave! Not too mention the international significance of the EU getting the golden goose of Scotland – and not the UK!

      It would also show rUK in an extremely bad light – a backwards insular nation closing itself off from the world.

    58. Giving Goose says:

      Regarding those Yes’ers who voted exit the EU.
      I can understand some of the thinking.
      My own personal experience, from within a large non public sector employer in the Highlands, is that employees from Eastern Europe have been exploited as a source of high skills, low wage labour.

      Those Eastern Euro employees were not employed through some sort of humanitarian goodwill on the part of the employer. No. It was to take advantage of low costs, pure and simple economic cynicism.

      The alternative was to increase wages and attract in “native” labour. Wasn’t going to happen in a million years.

      Result? Resentment.

      Free movement has been exploited by big business. Of course it has and of course it has been used successfully to keep wage bills down.
      I’m a Yes’er but the cynical use of free movement by employers has been noted by me and I was sufficiently close to the decision making process within an employer at the accession of Poland to see at first hand the thinking that lay behind the recruiting of Eastern Europeans.

      Yes’ers who were nervous of free movement have legitimate concerns. Free movement has been misused by unscrupulous employers and if someone voted Leave on that basis then I understand.

      Any future IndyRef will be vulnerable to that issue and the refreshed Yes movement needs to be smart when dealing with it. It’s a potential hot potato.

    59. Robert Louis says:

      Scotti Dog,

      Read up on Euro entry, since you seem to misunderstand what is involved. As the Rev says to adopt the Euro a country must enter the ERM. ERM entry is not compulsory. Besides, it isn’t automatic, as certain economic criteria need met over a period of at least two years, so the EU can’t ‘force’ any country to join the Euro, it is just unionist mis informed rubbish to suggest they can or would.

    60. Papadox says:

      Westminster, ENGERLAND need Scotlands resources to use as calateral for all the money they require to print or borrow to keep their illusion of the world power. Scotland is far more important to ENGERLAND than it would like to admit. Hence the Establishment will use all resources in its “armoury” to subjugate and impoverish Scotland for their financial benefit. If they loose Scotland then they have lost all, and that ain’t going to be allowed to happen. Never get between London and their greed for someone else’s money. You might just become expendable. They know how to cause real trouble and blame the victim for it. They wrote the rule book.

    61. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Brian Lucey

      Sorry Bri, but it doesn’t take my PhD in International Relations from St Andrews (sorry, couldn’t resist that given the preceding posts! 🙂 ) to discern the smell of bullshit when it splats into BTL comments.

      The idea that the EU won’t welcome Scotland verges on the bizarre. If nothing else it will be one in the eye for the Brits, which given current mood music in Brussels can’t be under-estimated. The EU isn’t going to stand on ceremony and insist the Scots, who ARE ALREADY WITHIN THE EU, be treated the same way as Croatia or Serbia. That line of reasoning might work on Daily Heil readers, but it makes any reasonable commentators roll their eyes at its inanity.

      As Stu so rightly said, however hard the potential economic outcomes are (and they are unpredictable either way) they only for 1 aspect of the overall indyref/brexit situation, and the Britnats basically just shot their own fox. They can’t try to paint indy as a huge gamble and economic suicide with a straight face, when trying to sell us the benefits of the brexiteer wet dream of the UK as a frigid version of Singapore.

    62. Liz g says:

      Giesabrek @ 8.32.
      Why on earth would you agree with a UDI ?
      We already have a clear mandate to go down the referendum route.
      Almost every country on the planet recognise the democratic will of the people, and at least publicly pay’s lip service to it’s legitimacy.

      So it would be utterly stupid to forgo the chance to achieve our Independence with the rest of the world having no choice but to recognise it.

      The UDI route would create a debate where none needs to happen,and opens up a space for other countries to involve themselves.
      And before you say they did last time,that was a very limited set of sound bite’s for the media,always caveated with “it was a matter for the Scottish People”, that’s because they were talking about a Vote and could not be seen to deny democracy.

      UDI is a whole other matter in regards to how other countries will respond,its shit we not only do not want but at this point in time is totally unnecessary to have to deal with.

      Don’t you think we should take what we have a achieved so far and run with it?

    63. heedtracker says:

      Life goes on in Europe. Chief EU negotiator on facebook, or Torygraph/Farage call him the “fanatic.” Catchy.

      Guy Verhofstadt
      55 mins ·
      I welcome the announcement made by Theresa May. It is essential for the EU that #Brexit is completed ahead of the European elections in 2019.

    64. Capella says:

      Suddenly I feel optimistic. If we miss this opportunity it will be so much harder in a Westminster ruled UK with no human rights. BREXIT forces the waverers to decide which way to jump.

      As they hover – nose pressed against the glass – waiting for morsels from the Tory high table, we need to fund raise. There will be a lot of Wee Coloured Books needed soon, and polling.

    65. A McWilliam says:

      @Brian Lucey “There’s an apparent unwillingness to accept that independence may well come at a cost, and that cost is upfront.”

      Yep. Any honest economic case for independence has to accept that it comes with (significant) short term pain for long-term gain. The problem is that most people discount the long-term.

      If the SG repeat the indyref1 strategy (i.e independence will be a costless and quick transition)soft no voters won’t believe it and will vote no again.

      Personally I would like to see the SNP talk up the non-economic benefits and risks, which are much less beyond question (i.e moving away from the closed minded and illiberal track the uk is heading). Not sure how much that resonates with voters however.

    66. Tricx says:

      You said no without any explaination . Does this not change thngs –

      “Although no Scottish court has yet openly questioned the validity of an Act of Parliament, certain judges have raised the possibility. Thus, in MacCormick v. Lord Advocate, the Lord President (Lord Cooper) stated that “the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law”, and that legislation contrary to the Act of Union would not necessarily be regarded as constitutionally valid. Also, in Gibson v Lord Advocate, Lord Keith was circumspect about how Scottish courts would deal with an Act, which would substantially alter or negate the essential provisions of the 1707 Act .

    67. Scott Borthwick says:

      brian lucey says:
      2 October, 2016 at 8:51 pm

      Denmark and Sweden negotiated those WITHIN the EU as a treaty annex. Scotland would be OUTSIDE seeking to come in.
      You wont have any card to play much beyond “oh god please save us” . That may come at a price. Decide early what is the maximum price to pay for independence. Thats the essence of my points. Because, there is a price. Theres always a price.


    68. Lawrence says:

      I don’t know why you are assuming Scotland will have to reapply to be a member of the EU?
      As you say the EU has no protocol for our situation, but it does have a process and our first port of call will be the European Courts and it will be European Judges that will determine Scotlands membership, no reapplication required as under already international Ordinary Contract Law Scotland can modify our current contract to remove the rUK also the court will have to determine if the EU can abandon 5 million already EU citizens? These 2 points of law that the European Courts will have to adjudicate on and puts Scotland in a very strong position with a very strong case, no reapplication required, no permission from any member state required just a judicial review of international law and EU responsibility to it’s citizens and a test of it’s own core principles

    69. muttley79 says:


      We all know that the British state does not want to lose Scotland though. Do you think independence or even campaigning for it is pointless, because that is the logic of your post?

    70. Blackhack says:

      This mad preoccupation with currency still has me baffled…Does it really matter what out unit of currency is called, whether it be the pound, the euro, the smackaroonie, or jellie jars, as long as the value of the currency and it’s buying power stays the same they can call it whatever they want….

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      @Brian Lucey
      Presuming this is your blog, it’s interesting and worth reading:

      You will of couse get jumped on for the euro thing and in fairness Scotland would get a derogation from the Euro because we aren’t ready, and need ERM2, and it’s incredibly unlikely there would be a time limit on it. In other words, we would be just like Sweden.

      But please continue to post here! It gives a different and external perspective.

    72. Big Jock says:

      The referendum must happen next year, if we wish to apply to Eu from within. It will take 2 years to disentangle from the UK and secure new status in the EU. So if the referendum is Sept 2017 we would be indi by Late summer 19. If the referendum is Sept 2018. The UK would have us half way out the door and part disentangled.

      It would mean indi could not really happen for at least a year after referendum at best. The whole system in Scotland would have been fucked up by the Tories. We cannot allow Brexit to happen and then have a referendum. We must set a date for referendum by March 17 and hold the referendum next autumn.

    73. Scott Borthwick says:

      brian lucey says:
      2 October, 2016 at 8:51 pm

      “You wont have any card to play much beyond “oh god please save us” . That may come at a price. Decide early what is the maximum price to pay for independence. Thats the essence of my points. Because, there is a price. Theres always a price.”

      We have no card to play other than continued access to fishing grounds (very significant to our good friends in Galicia), renewables potential and the fact that we are already EU citizens and they will not want to remove that from us arbitrarily. Given the ‘Golden goose’ status of Scotland (as coined by another commenter tonight) why do you think Theresa’s major efforts today were in trying to enforce the view that we are an indivisible, unitary state?

    74. heedtracker says:

      Chingford Strangler’s over excited Torygraph style by Teresa again, co written by St Thatcher RIP, in her pyramid and Jeremy Clarkson.

      EU’s stuffed with lefty fascists and they need their arse kicked…

      “That, I pointed out was exactly what fighter pilots do. In 1940 our Spitfire and Hurricane pilots did not give safe passage to German bombers which had dropped their bombs and expended their ammunition, as they sped back to refuel and re-arm. They closed from astern and shot them down. She seemed shocked at such brutality!, But then she had not been bombed as my generation had been,

      That apart I find it alarming that in a very dangerous world we spend too little on defence and too much on overseas aid, which is often siphoned off in maladministration and corruption. “

    75. heedtracker says:

      Taste the fudge, tory BBC style?

      Andrew Neil ?@afneil 3h3 hours ago
      Andrew Neil Retweeted Laura Kuenssberg
      They’re staking out an initial maximalist position, allowing French and Germans to say they’ve knocked us back in their elections.Andrew Neil added,

      Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
      @afneil indeed so, definitely v hard to imagine how we can have full single market access after May’s speech, but sources deny that’s fixed

    76. Tamas Marcuis says:

      That figure for trade with the UK needs to be examined.
      It just does not add up with other trade figures released by the UK government. Particularly the percentage of UK exports sourced in Scotland.

      From my own experience the UK government’s method of tracking exports “Port of Exit”, only records exports directly leaving Scotland. They just deducted that from Scotland’s total estimated exports and low and behold we have the figure they have been using to beat YES supporters with for the last few years.

      Port of Exit takes zero account of what just passes, perhaps via a middleman, through England and leaves from an English port. It then miraculously becomes UK/English exports.

      There has to be a better more accurate estimate because that figure currently used does not bear up to scrutiny.

    77. Legerwood says:

      Adopting the Euro.

      An independent Scotland would probably have to make a commitment to adopting the Euro as any new applicant does BUT that does not mean that you make the commitment on the Tuesday and start using it on the Wednesday.

      Precedents, more relevant than Sweden, are Chzech Republic and Hungary. Both committed to join the Euro when they applied for membership of the EU. Both gave target dates, long past, for introducing it. Both have put the adoption of the Euro on hold seemingly indefinitely.

    78. muttley79 says:


      Yes, the currency issue matters a hell of a lot. Why else do you think Darling and Osborne went on and on about it in 2014? They know it was our weakest spot and that is why it was targeted so effectively. Diehard Yes supporters might like to deny it but that was the case. If you want confirmation watch the first Salmond v Darling debate.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      @brian lucey
      You certainly stirred things up!

      However, whether in or out of the EU becoming a member, there is one vital thing which would get in the way of Scotland joining the Euro, even if we wanted to, and that’s the SGP. There are apparently moves to get rid of it, or modify it, but right now it exists, and for eurozone members there are sanctions that are more likely to be applied, tahn for those outside. That’s a 60% debt to GDP which, who knows, Scotland might qualify because we don;t know yet the result of Indy negotiations with the rUK.

      But more important than that for us is the 3% deficit target, and even if our GERS is not really that illustrative, it’s pretty certain we don’t meet it.

      As non-eurozone members all we need is an acceptable Medium-Term Budgetary Objective (MTO) to reduce that deficit to the desired 3%. What is practcially certain though is that Scotland would not be ALLOWED in the eurozone until we had achieved that. And after taht no EU member state can be forced into the ERM2 as there are potentially economy damaging consequences as the UK found out back in the 90s.

      By the way, we’re (rightly) a suspicious lot, could I suggest you put a message on your wordpress blog, something like “Hello Wings Over Scotland”? Thanks!

    80. Papadox says:

      Muttley79 9:26pm

      Just maybe the British state will do all in its power to prevent Scotland from leaving ENGERLANDS
      “.Protection”. Maybe I fear that HMG is about to turn its state controlled Trouble makers loose. Or maybe good old Blighty wouldn’t think if such a thing, heaven forbid.

    81. Dave says:

      Just a thought, it may be nothing but if Nissan, Honda, Toyota and Jaguar-Landrover want to leave because of Full English would it not make sense for them to move to independent Scotland within the EU and carry on in an English speaking environment and the single market? Would certainly give Scotland an economic boost if they did. Perhaps other companies would follow suit – BAe-Airbus to Prestwick. Play our cards right and it may be possible.

      Anyway just a thought.

    82. muttley79 says:


      I am still not really sure what you are trying to say. We want independence, we are going to try our best to achieve it. Why bring up potential trouble, what purpose does that achieve?

      Some people were bringing up all this stuff before the first independence referendum, and it passed off peacefully. The loons in George Square turned up the day after the vote. I am going to completely ignore anymore of these posts, along the lines of the British state will never allow it, they are pointless, a waste of time, and demotivating in the extreme.

    83. johnny rudkin says:

      theresa may has come out with the ground rules scotland you will do as you are told no ifs or buts westminster are negotiating for Briton and that means scotland so what westminster says scotland will obey

    84. brian lucey says:

      ‘Absolutely none of that is happening’
      What if it does? Anyhow, I remain in the EU, and feel desperately sorry for you lot. But, its in your hands. Play your few cards right and you migh come out battered and bruised but dont engage in wishful thinking, dont think the EU is a nirvana of Scotophiles waiting to embrace you on your terms, and dont give up hope.

    85. HandandShrimp says:

      In 1920 close to 90% of Ireland’s trade was with the rUK. These days it is about 12%. However, Ireland’s overall trade has risen considerably since those days and they have a trade surplus. The “half our trade is with rUK” soundbite may sound significant but trading patterns change and they may well change for the better.

      The plus side of May’s hard Brexit decision is that in appeasing her Brexiteers on immigration she is taking the UK on a bumpy economic path. It will be a hell of a lot easier to articulate what that means than a soft Brexit which on face value might have looked very much like soft “stay in the EU” and therefore very difficult to highlight where the disadvantages are.

      Also May is making placatory noises on workers rights etc while Grayling is merrily saying that they will ditch those. We know exactly how keen the Tories are on rights for ordinary working people particularly at a time the truth starts to come to light on things like Orgreave.

      Yes Project Fear will be bang on about borders and Johnny Foreigner although quite what they will say about trade is anyone’s guess. They may be lying about Ireland but if they are that will be another act of wilful sabotage to add to the Tories list.

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Adopting the Euro might make it easier to assuage fears of the elderly re pensions etc –

      If it has to be explained to them that they’ll still be getting the same pension, but it’ll be ‘in Euros’, that lessens effectiveness of the fear generated by ‘You won’t be getting your British pension any more…’

      I’ve expressed that clumsily, but you get the gist eh?


      IMO, this is the best news we’ve had in ages – May has tried to play a card she simply doesn’t have, and inadvertently given us a time frame to work with. It’s nebulous, aye, but it’s more than we had yesterday.

    87. heedtracker at 8.19

      But not as bad as your spelling and punctuation.

    88. Legerwood says:

      One of the arguments employed by the Better Together side against independence, and still in use, concerning the fact that Scotland does more trade with England than with Europe so why risk this by becoming independent has now been shot down by the hard Brexit crew. Although they may not realise it yet.

      The UK’s exports to Europe amount to some £200 billion. with the USA it is around £100 billion and with China around £26 billion – according to a news report last week.

      A hard Brexit puts this EU trade at risk but the Brexiteers seem to think this is a price worth paying to become once more a ‘fully independent sovereign nation’.

      ‘Sauce’, ‘goose’ and ‘gander’ – frame sentence accordingly.

      Probably have not expressed this very well but not for the first time the BT side are deploying contradictory arguments applying to Scotland what they do not apply to themselves and the Brexit position.

    89. brian lucey says:

      Stirring things is good. As I say, I have no skin in the game. For me, a Scotland staying in the UK is optimal as it removes a similar level national competitor from the FDI/Europot game.

      Theres a whole pile of delusion floating round the place. I wish scotland well. It wont be well served by anything but cleareyed and cold calculation of the costs (yep, them) and benefits of independence. Your going to get hit, hard, whatever you do.

      Enjoy the next two years. For us, in Ireland, the most pressing issue is how destabilised will be NornIron. Most business people there are pretty aghast. Talk to some chamber of commerce reps. Statements like “why should I stay here when I can move the factory/distribution center/call center/ etc five miles down the road and stay in the EU” are not rare. A destabilised NI = a greater danger of a return to the violence. In that context, your troubles are minor.

    90. Richardinho says:

      The problem I have with the idea of a second referendum being likely is that it appears to be entirely in the gift of the Uk government. Most likely they will simply continue saying ‘no’ to any proposal the Scottish Government comes up with. I have difficulty seeing a path to a referendum in these circumstances. Can someone help me out here?

    91. Papadox says:


      Read your history of the British empire and see how the empire was obtained, policed and controlled by the great white queen and her governments. HMG has form with many countries. From the good old USA right up to Erin, Cyprus. Regards

    92. the_drookit_dug says:

      We often hear from unionists that Scotland does 4 times as much trade with England as it does with the EU, conveniently overlooking that Scotland actually purchases marginally more from England than England does from Scotland. The loss to English companies of this trade being threatened would not be inconsequential.

    93. Capella says:

      Comic relief. Bozo opens his mouth at Tory Conference and calls Africa a “country”. Sarah Palin once did the same to great hilarity.

      Tory Conference still not mentioned on BBC home page. Is it a secret?

      British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson refers to Africa as ‘that country’ (VIDEO)

    94. Del says:

      Over the last two years I’ve slowly changed from being a nationalist to something much more divisive.
      As far as I’m concerned, Teresa May can FOAD. As the Conservatives at Westminster beat themselves into a Brexit frenzy, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some other nats no longer eschew violence.

    95. muttley79 says:


      See my previous post.

    96. t42 says:

      “if Nissan, Honda, Toyota and Jaguar-Landrover want to leave because of Full English would it not make sense for them to move to independent Scotland within the EU and carry on in an English speaking environment and the single market?”

      nah..people speak English in other countries as well

    97. yesindyref2 says:

      Great idea. Batter the batds, and lose the support of 90% of the YES movement. Whoooopy dooooppy dooo.

    98. heedtracker says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      2 October, 2016 at 10:02 pm
      heedtracker at 8.19

      But not as bad as your spelling and punctuation.

      Me not a PHD Dave. You and details eh. Devil’s always in the detail Dave. Free advice.

    99. gus1940 says:


      For the last week we have been swamped by our wonderful broadcast and print media with pictures of the Royal Visit to Canada.

      What has struck me is that all the pictures are close-ups with no wide shots of crowds and on TV there is no sound of cheering thousands of admirers.

      Could this possibly mean that interest in the visitors was somewhat less than our homegrown propaganda experts would have wanted?

    100. jimnarlene says:

      @Del, piss off and grow the fuck up.

    101. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREXIT flight control…

    102. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      brian lucey says at 8:10 pm

      You don’t do a nice line in Finance & Economic Graphs do you??

    103. K1 says:

      Ye can fuck right off wi that attitude Del. Ain’t gonnae happen. If you want to ‘act out’ some latent violent fantasy don’t use our cause as an excuse to do so.

      That’s your problem and yours alone. We don’t need ‘incitement’. We need engagement, cool heads and most of all intelligent discourse.

      Check yersel’ pal.

    104. Brian Powell says:

      Now a couple of things to overcome:

      To get this to as many people as possible.

      To get past the Scottish situation of: ‘we’ won’t be allowed, will the Queen object, SNP, SNP, SNP, SNP..

    105. X_Sticks says:

      The blatancy which May dismissed Scotland with worries me. The “We voted as one United Kingdom to leave the EU, and we’ll leave it as one United Kingdom. There is no opt out from Brexit. And I will never allow divisive nationalists to undermine the precious Union between the four nations of our United Kingdom.” makes me think they (the tories & the british establishment) are up to something.

      I think what worries me is that her Great Repeal of European law and its replacement with ‘british’ law would mean that as soon as brexit happens we (Scotland) would have no recourse to the European Court. I wonder if they are planning to announce a very rapid brexit so we have no time to run a referendum. If they did that our only legal recourse would be through firstly Scottish and then the Supreme Court in London. We could probably predict what the court finding would be.

      Where would this scenario leave us? Appeal to the UN? UDI?

      I hope someone can tell me this can’t happen.

    106. rongorongo says:

      It is going to be a big risk to go for another independence referendum, if we lose there will be no further independence referendum either a) for a very long time, or b) there will never be another one. It is that important and serious.
      It will be an equally big risk for the unionists. Picture the awful thought of waking up on the morning after IndyRef2 to be on the losing side. That was painful in 2014 – but would be a whole lot worse given all the events since then. I predict that there will either be a rush of no voters heading south to England or of yes voters heading…anywhere. Ditto for the the associated businesses. Plus all the people from the rUK who would be attracted (by either outcome) to move here. It will indeed be crunch time.

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      Okey-doke, quick check on Lucey’s twitter and I get this: “If scottish people dont vote for independence post #brexit then they will never. Either way, its is going to cost and cost big.”

      Which is what he’s saying here. So he’s the genuine article. Another one is this:

      I sense that #brexit means UK going to get cheesed, as @terryandrob coined – like getting creamed but is harder and lasts longer

      Yes, seems likely.

    108. Macart says:

      Light the blue touch paper. 😉

    109. cearc says:

      May has to have some sort of trading arrangement with the EU in place when they leave, however unfavourable because they are dependent on electricity imports from France, Netherlands and of course, Scotland.

      Electricity rationing, as per winter of discontent, would be a complete disaster nowadays and definitely not a vote winner.

      I mean, what’s the use of knowing – from today’s Sunday Times – how to make Theresa May’s scones (from her mother’s recipe), if you can’t cook them.

    110. defo says:

      “British politics is over…”

      Poultice on R4 earlier. Analysis (te he) ‘Tearing up the Politics textbook’

      “Since 2015, a common political space does not exist…”

      “Scotland is now too different from the rest of Great Britain…”

      Never! John.

    111. Papadox says:

      @x sticks 10:35pm

      Think you are on to something, there is trouble coming courtesy of HMG. they don’t mess about when they are given the go ahead.

    112. defo says:

      Doh! 25 mins 22secs in.

    113. Capella says:

      “And I will never allow divisive nationalists to undermine the precious Union between the four nations of our United Kingdom.” 

      She’s wrong there. As Mr Peffers has pointed out umpteen times, there are not four countries in the Union. There are only two – Scotland and England.

      Scotland may decide that this Union is not precious at all. It is exploitative, destructive and stifling.

    114. Dan Huil says:

      brian phd

      “An independent scotland outside the EU will have to come in.”

      You mean Scotland will be forced by gunpoint to join? No? Seems like a strong hand for an independent Scotland’s EU negotiations if it sits back and waits. Same goes for NATO. phd? I wish you well.

      I can just imagine James Connolly et al saying in 1916, “Lads. You do realize independence will mean an increase in income tax? Do we really want to do this?”

    115. jimnarlene says:

      Dan Hull says,

      “I can just imagine James Connolly et al saying in 1916, “Lads. You do realize independence will mean an increase in income tax? Do we really want to do this?””

      Nearly choked reading that…brilliant.

    116. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Scott Borthwick says at 9:32 pm

      If Brexit happens and Scotland is stuck with rUK you can forget about continued access to fishing grounds for our good friends in Galicia.

      The Tories will sell our fishing grounds out to the Chinese and there will be ‘boats on station’ fishing 24/7 with no employment law constraints/controls feeding large Klondikers like they do off the coasts of Africa etc.

    117. Dan Huil says:

      @Richardinho 10:10pm

      The independence movement in Scotland gains considerable support because Westminster says no to IndyRef2. Scotland holds a referendum anyway. Scotland votes for independence. Scotland behaves like an independent nation [doesn’t need to declare UDI] regardless of England’s opinion.

    118. Dan Huil says:

      By their words and actions britnats in Westminster continue to break up their beloved united kingdom. We should let get on with it; their arrogance and ignorance towards Scotland will increase support for the independence movement in Scotland.

      May’s speech today was a minor classic in exposing England’s natural contemptuousness for Scotland.

    119. ed t head says:

      I would rather use the euro than a £ that has abandoned the rest of europe, I thought that in indi ref 1 being outside europe wouyld lead to death in a void so what has changed. Scotland needs a direct ferry to europe so we can carry out trade with sane people and avoid all the westminster lies and spin.

    120. Dr Jim says:

      Perhaps we might look at who would support us this time but didn’t last time
      Once the Unions realise what Theresa May and her chums are up to with the erosion of workers rights and pensions being slashed and the possible closures of Industries not vital to the Tories champagne lifestyle they might decide the future in the UK dont look bright and given the SNP record on keeping our businesses going could consider getting on the right horse this time

      Because when the Unions start shouting about workers rights and future strikes (wee rhyme there) the media starts to pay attention
      Maybe the Unions could start shouting now about the Clyde shipbuilding so’s the UK guv can show their hand by stuttering out some more shoddy lies

      I’m quite sure by this time the FM has a queue of prominant businesses and foreign dignitaries to parade in front of the media and public and probably the odd ex bank of england boss as well so I think the support will be much better this time

      Are you still allowed to play european football if you’re not in europe any more, (my ignorance on football matters here) will all those mightily expensive foreign players be allowed in to the new and improved racist UK or will they be unwanted immigrants not serving a useful purpose like fruit picking in the summertime

      What about the costs and paperwork involved in just nipping off to the Costa’s for your wee fortnight in the sun
      I’m being flippant but once the drawbacks and costs are made clear (although we can’t depend on the media to do that) these things may start to give ordinary folk pause to consider they can fly from Scotland with no barriers or extra costs all over the world and other places too because folk are basically lazy and don’t like fuss and change, but if we stick with the UK it’ll cost big time

      All the arguments that were made against us last time are for us this time
      I don’t believe the currency was a problem I believe it was used conveniently by the NO camp to scare folk like anything different was big scary spider money because a lot of folk don’t really understand currency (even though the morons use plastic) except for the elderly morons that is who think the bit of linen paper is really really important
      and any other money is fake except when they whip it out to pay for their Cafe con leche por favor, or a wee Agua con gas, it seems to work OK then when they’re leaving the 20cent tip for the english breakfast and I should know I cooked enough of the F…..g Shit

    121. Ian says:

      It’s ironic that the UK EU ref result was split 52%-48%, exactly the same as the 1979 Scottish Devolution Referendum where 52% voted yes and 48% voted no. But because Labour introduced an amendment that mandated a pass vote requirement of 40% of all voters (so non voters were counted as no voters), the Scottish vote result changed from 52%-48% in favour of devolution, to 33%-31% in favour and since the 40% of all voters minimum wasn’t reached, the yes vote was switched to a no vote. So we didn’t get devolution although most people had voted for it.

      Now if the same rule applied to the UK EU referendum, the 52%-48% would have changed to 37%-35% and it would have failed too.

      This speaks volumes about the UK parties. Thanks Labour. For nothing.

    122. Fireproofjim says:

      Re Euro adoption
      The following countries in the EU have kept their own currencies –
      Poland, Sweden, Denmark, Czech Republic, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia .
      None of these have any plans to join the EURO and the talk of an independent Scotland being forced to do so is a myth.
      Personally I don’t care what we use. Paper currency is only a means of exchange and any competent government could set up such a currency or use any other, including the pound, dollar or euro. You don’t need permission to use an internationally traded currency.
      Some English towns have actually set up a town currency which traders in that town accept.
      So as long as the currency is accepted, anything will do.
      It is really a minor point in the Independence argument, but naturally people think it is important as everybody uses the pound.

    123. Vambomarbeleye says:

      I remember in the 1970s when we changed from LSD to the present currency. This was to bring us in line with Europe.
      I then moved to Europe in 1975. Found myself of using French franks, Belgium franks, Dutch guilders, Deutschmarks and even BAFS. Sometimes travelling across borders you could have the lot in your breaks. So needed a strong belt and all the exchange rates.
      Then came the euro. Suddenly you could travel across many country’s with one currency. Each member country’s coin can still be identified.
      From the point of tourism I think it would be a benefit. No exchange rates. In fact you can spend euros in Scotland.
      The only thing that would be a concern would who would be providing pensions. For instance military and war pensions. If it is Westminster the exchange rates could be detrimental.
      When I travel around the world I always carry euros. Used to be American dollars.
      So apart from the question of pensions. I have no problem with using a Scottish euro.
      What do we put on it though. Queens head or saltire with lion rampant.

    124. Robert Louis says:

      Hmm. Judging by some comments above, we really do need to keep an eye out for agents provocateurs. Never forget, it has in the past been the weapon of choice by Westminster to thwart Scots desire for independence.

      It has just occurred to me, as regards Brexit, I must say, if article 50 is happening by March, then if it were me, I’d do it (as it does not require a parliamentary debate or process) between Christmas and New year. Markets are closed, so no massive drops in currency, FTSE unaffected, most political journalists away on holiday, most MP’s on holiday too, and the general public distracted, and with very little actual news coverage over the christmas break.

      BY january 3rd, the deed will be done. No panic, no market upsets or speculation. I could of course be wrong.

    125. Stoker says:

      Derek B wrote (@8:38pm)

      “I was Yes/Leave. While I can only speak for myself, I don’t think that voters like me represent as big a problem as some might think. Why? Indy trumps Leave is why.”

      Absolutely spot on, bud, we don’t!

      I can assure anyone that as far as i’m concerned Indy is first, last and the only issue that matters. I’m leave as a preference but i’m more than happy to settle for Scotland in the EU.

      It has always been my goal to help free my country from the rusting chains of old HMS Cesspit Britannia. I, like many, don’t do it for me, i do it for future generations.

      I will be satisfied enough if i could go to the big furnace knowing i helped free my country from London’s thieving grip and played my part in handing over that potential to our aine kin.

      It will be for future generations to take their country, Scotland, to whatever next level. I just want to be one of the millions responsible for creating the following scenario:

      (((((KNOCK KNOCK)))))

      Scotland: “WHO’S THERE?”


      Scotland: “WHIT DAE YE WANT WE’RE BUSY!”



      🙂 Goodnight troops!

    126. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 2 October, 2016 at 8:43 pm:

      ” … The reality will most likely be iScotland using our own Scottish currency,”

      Yes indeed and our own Scottish currency from before 1706/7 was the pound Sterling and was agreed as such by the treaty of Union. Into the bargain the Scottish
      Pound Sterling, is indeed backed by actual cash money and it is held in a special vault in the Bank of England.

      What’s more the Scottish Banknotes are indeed distinctly Scottish. On independence the BoE, (of which Scotland owns a negotiable share in), must stump up that cash in the BofE vault and either give a Scottish government a say in how the bofE is run or compensate us by buying for England the Scottish share of the BofE assets. There are no actual legal reason to claim that Scots share of the BofE should be on the basis of population proportions.

      That share is our due because the BofE was nationalised by a UK government in 1946. Remember it is utter nonsense that there can be a United Kingdom when one of the only two partner kingdoms has left.

    127. defo says:

      “What do we put on it though. Queens head or saltire with lion rampant.”

      A bust of his Eckness sporting the beret, surrounded by the latin phrasing. ‘GIRUY Ya Bass’.

    128. Grouse Beater says:

      The first group of major companies, banks included, that balk from financial constraints will turn on government.

      Tory and Labour have been happy bedfellows to big business for over thirty years. The idea that global companies will suddenly become supine and roll over to the worst of Brexit, when so many either originate in Europe or have strong ties with Europe, is unimaginable.

      The companies have real muscle. And they will use it.

      Automobile manufacturers are only the first to demand answers. The City’s financial institutions will follow.

    129. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Mayday, Mayday:

      I’m looking forward to welcoming many scots to Frankfurt who because of Brexit will need to settle here… 🙂

      Furthermore I can start up the SNP branch “Frankfurt / Rheinmain”. Not just “Europe” as it is now on the membership cards.

      We already have a scottish country dance club and our own pipe band, “The Clan Pipers”.

    130. Robert Louis says:

      Scotland ,as an equal partner in the treaty of union, does not ever need to ask Westminster’s permission for independence, but to undertake such a move, and for it to be recognised globally, a clear democratic mandate is needed. This mandate can come from an election or a referendum.

      The treaty of union between Scotland and England is a bipartite treaty, and as such can be ended by either party. You need a clear democratic mandate or extreme circumstances closely followed by a full demonstrable democratic parliamentary election, in order to have the process recognised by other countries around the world.

      Anyway, the point is, Westminster likes to assert that some kind of permission is required for a referendum or independence, but that is just baloney of the highest order.

    131. Kestral says:

      This time round the currency question is already decided enough for us not to make the shared currency mistake there is little choice it would have to be our own currency ie the Scottish pound

      All printed Scottish notes are backed by Titon notes. Not sure but if we go for fiat currency then those titan notes will become the beginnings of our currency reserves

    132. Dan Huil says:

      Hard to imagine, I know, but stand by for even more too-wee-too-stupid-too-poor bullshit from the britnat media. Oh, and by the way, England still really really really loves us.

    133. Suzanne says:

      Not sure May can go for a fast Brexit. The Europeans are going to get on with their own business alongside having to deal with this Brexit mess, and I don’t get the impression that they’re willing to down tools and focus solely on what Westminster wants.

      The complications are huge. Brexiteers might blithely chirp about the WTO and how it will be better than the EU but the WTO isn’t going to be plain sailing. That has its own tight tangle of knots to unpick and that’s going to take a heck of a time, especially as Engerlund doesn’t have anything like the expertise to unpick it.

      Talk of UDI is suicidal. The very last thing we want is to trigger unrest or to create hard lines in Scotland and neither do we want to see violence, otherwise we’ll have a re-run of Churchill’s tanks in Glasgow and blood spilt on all sides. Anything like that plays directly into Westminster’s hands, and we’re not going to give them an inch of an excuse to threaten us any more than they’re already doing.

      Keep the head. Keep the powder dry. We have to box clever and outmanoeuvre them. We have a kick-off date now, and we can start to focus on the strategy for the next two years.

    134. Proud Cybernat says:

      No PhD required…

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      The £4 billion in the BoE is actually owned by the three note issuing banks to cover the Scottish banknotes in circulation 100%, and if they stop issuing those banknotes, they can get their money back. They did it basically as marketing.

    136. Richardinho at 10.10

      The UK government can’t stop Scotland having a second referendum. It can make it difficult and invent impediments but under the UN Charter it can’t stop it. And it knows exactly the effect it will have if it tries.

      The Catalan government has just announced it will stage a referendum despite Spain saying it can’t.

    137. John Moss says:

      I want Scotland out of the United Kingdom and Europe.

      I want independence and no part of my sovereingty given away to anyone.

      Time to dump the UK as quickly as possible and to forge a future for ourselves in the world.

    138. Dan Huil says:

      As the Rev implies, how can Westminster accuse the independence movement in Scotland of not having answers to the economic questions of independence when it has already shown to the world its [Westminster’s] own ignorance, incompetence and duplicity in trying to work out brexit.

    139. heedtracker says:

      This is great.

      John Cleese ?@JohnCleese 1h1 hour ago
      John Cleese Retweeted David Puckridge
      Why do we let half-educated tenement Scots run our English press ? Because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers ?

    140. A great deal of bravado emanating from Mrs May at the moment. So far nothing has happened regarding Brexit. Once it does the proverbial shit will hit the fan big time. When it does Mrs May, if she is still in her job, will do what the City of London tells her to do. If that is “stay in the single market” then that is what will happen.

    141. Petra says:

      @ Brian Lucey …. Thanks for taking the time to post on here Brian. Your input is very interesting and greatly appreciated. Out of interest do you foresee Brexit leading to a United Ireland?


      @ Jack Collatin at 8:53 pm …. “The Indyref should wait until we can see the White of their eyes.”

      Spot on Jack, let’s all be patient and let the events unfold now. 45% of the population wanted Independence previously. If they stick to their guns we need another 6% to win (more hopefully). How many of the 62% that voted to remain in the EU will vote for Independence now to do just that?

      I reckon that Indyref2 will take place just short of two years from now. Two years in the life of politics is a mighty long time. So much can happen between now and then. More than anything time to see clearly that Westminster will have made an economic hash of this. That ‘hash’ may result in companies publicly announcing relocating to Scotland if we become independent. How influential would that be? UKip support may go through the roof if the plebeians don’t see a ‘positive’ migrant change. How off-putting would that be for Scots? The EU may have to have a rethink in relation to open borders. I’ve even read that the Euro may be scrapped. Seems unlikely? Who knows?

      Whatever the case we’ve got two years to convert 6% of the population. Callous, corrupt, totally inept Westminster may in fact do the job for us. As some say on here start stockpiling the popcorn.


      @ John O at 8:54 pm …. ‘Article 50’

      Great link John. I’ve just had a quick swatch at it. Will take a closer look later when I get more time.


      @ Tamas Marcius at 9:40pm …. ‘Exports’.

      This is absolutely crucial Tamas and I’m sure that Nicola Sturgeon will be on top of this already in preparation of quelling one of the most potent of Unionist arguments.


      I was just wondering if Theresa May informed The First Minister of Scotland, the Scotland that has the most powerfully devolved Parliament in the World, that Article 50 will be triggered before March and that there will be a ‘hard Brexit’ or did Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland, Scotland the so-called equal and valued partner, hear about this when watching the Marr Show?

    142. heedtracker says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      2 October, 2016 at 11:33 pm
      No PhD required…

      The red tories of the Scotland region are howling for tax hikes and Sturgeon must end austerity. Why they want tax hikes under tory England reign and not independent Scotland, where we might pay more tax but at least we wouldn’t be doing to it to pay twice for the privilege of being in the UKOK zone, is a bit Britnat mad, Dr NO! style.

      Scott Arthur Retweeted
      Edinburgh Labour ?@EdinburghLabour Oct 1
      .@kezdugdale “Nicola Sturgeon has not just passed on Tory cuts – she doubled them. The FM has become an administrator for austerity”

    143. Glesca Keelie says:

      cearc says:
      2 October, 2016 at 10:41 pm

      “May has to have some sort of trading arrangement with the EU in place when they leave, however unfavourable because they are dependent on electricity imports from France, Netherlands and of course, Scotland.”

      Cearc, did you ever see the page in the National Grid website showing energy flows from us to N.Ireland and England, and from France and I thought Belgium to England. Disappeared before the Ref. Or I can no longer find it.

    144. DerekM says:

      yawn i see yon English zoomer May has been spouting pish again.

      What i find really funny is that the press are bumming her up as the great UKOK savior,next they will be telling us she is going to handbag all those EU folks.

      Her record in office is appalling she is a total disaster zone that makes pig fancier look competent,the EU are going to tear her to pieces cant wait.

      Think i will buy some popcorn shares 🙂

    145. Dr Jim says:

      Can I just say for some folk who are doing this I want my sovereign Independence but not in the EU stuff just go right ahead and split the vote, divide and England conquer the good old fashioned way, keep punting that brilliant idea of non co-operation with the world just like the UK lot we’re trying to get away from

      Jeez! What planet are these folk on

    146. Tam Jardine says:

      Excellent article Stu. I agree with almost everything. One thing I don’t understand is why the ref has to be at the end of the 2 year period when the Scottish Government has been advised to get on with it and avoid that very situation (submission to a Holyrood committee as I recall).

      It all sounds great except we do not know how the EU will fare over the next few years and as it is an institution in some difficulty we cannot know for sure how attractive it will be in 2 years time. Having said that I am heartened by today’s events.

    147. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Glesca Keelie.

      Re National Grid. Does this help?

    148. geeo says:

      The rev said….

      “The chances of that happening are seventy thousand billion trillion to one against. And I’m sugar-coating that. You’ve got more chance of winning every lottery on Earth simultaneously while being struck by lightning and a meteor”

      So not ruling it out then….???

      Funniest thing i have read today, and i have been on wings twice already….! Brilliant .

    149. Proud Cybernat says:

      May, without a hint of irony, calls Scots “divisive nationalists” and yet it is the Scots who voted to remain with our friends in Europe, not place divisions between us.

    150. Orri says:

      Thing is,

      Even if the current ratio of trade rUK:EU is correct it doesn’t mean that it’s fixed in stone. Once the Brexit button is finally pushed there’s probably two years of preemptive financial meltdown in advance of the final separation. If the UK economy is really going down the pan then Scotland can’t afford not to keep it’s access to the single market.

      Nor is there any real mention of whether the rUK is, at present, our majority “export” market or whether we access others via agreements made by the EU which would have to be renegotiated post Brexit.

    151. mike cassidy says:

      For those interested in the Scotland/England energy relationship.

      An electricity snapshot for January and February this year.

      And the comments are also to be read.

    152. Liz g says:

      I want to add my voice to everyone here who has made it clear to those who suggest violence of some sort,that we don’t agree,with that.
      NO you’re not on we are close,so close to getting this done the right way why would you even consider it ?
      Violence has never been a part of this campaign.
      Scotland and it has to be said England are working this out peacefully.
      Where is the need (if there is ever a need ) for violence?

      As far as I can tell the only group so far to have expressed the willingness to actually “Physically” fight seem to be the OO and their friends.

      So I would ask that you note two things about them.

      Firstly…Their website’s in the lead up to the big march before Indy Ref 1,were full of “mind nay trouble comments”, and there wasn’t any.
      That tells me that they are as sensitive to how they are perceived as every other group,and they knew how bad it would look opposite a very peaceful movement.
      That’s powerful we can use that.

      Secondly… what seemed to me, to be obviously absent across their web sites,the ones I was looking at anyway,both then and now.
      Was an explanation of any kind of why they were to support the Union of the Parliament’s.
      No one ever said I support the Union of the Crown’s,but not the 1707 Union of the Parliament’s.
      They all gave the impression that they thought it was the same thing.
      Therefore it begs the question if not, why not?

      So would you, could you , really fight with someone,when you can’t be absolutely sure that they are not fighting for the wrong Union.
      Wouldn’t you want to be sure that this person didn’t hate Westminster rule as much as you did, after all they and their families probably face the same struggles you do?

      Again we can potentially use this,by being more clear about what Union we are actually against,and finding out why they perceive the end of the political Union as a threat to the Union to which they have given their loyalty.

      I have no doubt that the,shall we say confusion , between the two Union’s is deliberately encouraged ….there is your actual fight,clear that up and even if they still all voted no in the privacy of the polling booth a least some will understand what it’s really all about,and be somewhat reassured that it is not their rightly or wrongly held belief in the Union of the Crown’s that is the issue.
      Because after Indy they’re still us.

    153. call me dave says:

      Constitutional crisis looms over Brexit as May insists Holyrood would have no veto over process

    154. davidb says:

      @ Dan Dare.

      And that’s the numbers we need to know. That is their currency question argument & Achilles heel for ID2.

      I know that a lot of the purchasing we make in rUK is because the UK agent for German, Italian, American firms is in England. It would be ludicrous – and costly – to have to buy those goods from a country outwith the EU, only to try to re-export with another tariff back to the EU. The cheapest option is to miss the English merchants out. There are opportunities for Scottish merchants in this.

      Incidentally, how would anyone know what the trade numbers are between Scotland and rUK? The VAT system has a reporting mechanism for trade between EU members, but there is no such mechanism internally in the UK. My VAT returns don’t give any indication of whom I buy from or sell to inside the UK. The only records are EU sales & purchases.

      We need to get the stats published and printed ASAP. Neuter their argument now, before we spend 2 years fighting the battle on their terms again.

    155. Onwards says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      2 October, 2016 at 8:25 pm
      “This could be solved with a double question.

      1. Should Scotland be a sovereign nation state? YES/NO
      2. Should we be part of the EU. YES/NO”

      No, that’s insane, because you then have to conduct two separate and totally contradictory Yes campaigns at the same time.

      It’s not contradictory if you believe the EU is a union of independent countries voluntarily pooling a degree of sovereignty to enable a huge common market.

      And Scotland already voted 62% to stay in Europe via the UK. It’s a formality there would be a YES vote on that one.
      So Independence would be the overwhelming focus.

      The point of a separate EU question – either at the same time, or following an independence vote, is to neutralize the certain attacks about “gaining independence and then handing it away to Brussels.” We will never hear the end of it.

      Letting the voters decide on Europe is a clear way out. The likes of Jim Sillars can vote YES/NO, and that’s fine.

      Otherwise, losing say 10% of potential YES voters is a big deal when every single vote is needed.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      There is another little angle now, that I don’t think anyone has thought of yet. I could be wrong, but if the EU won’t talk officially to Scotland until Brexit, because it respects the UK’s constitution as it does all member state constitutions, what happens then if the UK doesn’t respect its own constitution, adversely affecting Scotland?

      Oh, and my prediction for Indy Ref 2 is now same as Salmond’s – autumn next year.

      It’s all coming to the boil.

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      Actually, if we have the two questions, every single Indy support could vote YES for question 1, the problem is would previous NO voters still vote NO to that, but YES to Question 2?

      It would have to be rephrased as a gateway after a YES to question 1, or have the words “Independent Scotland part of the EU”.

      But it’s worth thinking about, I think YES this time will be multi-idea, and that would allow the anti-EU people to also campaign for YES to Indy.

    158. Onwards says:


      There is of course a YES/YES precendent in the 1997 devolution referendum. It could be worded along the same lines.

      Question 2:
      Should an independent Scotland join/remain in the EU?

      The more I think about it, the more I think it will be harder to win a second indyref without catering to Scottish Leave voters. I see a lot of chat on facebook about people who voted YES in 2014, but don’t want to be part of Europe. Most of them would probably still vote YES, but it can’t be taken for granted. It would be good to see some polling on the issue.

      And by the time a second referendum comes around, the EU will be painted as hostile by the tabloids after they take a hard line in negotiations.

      A second question would in all effect be a formality, but having it there enables us to dodge a bullet, and hopefully maximise YES support.

      Thinking ahead, a new indyref based on independence in Europe, opens up the possibility of a new last minute SuperVow where Westminster tries to stave off independence with a new offer of Devo Max including previous EU powers over fishing/agriculture, and maybe an element of immigration controls.

    159. Petra says:

      @ Call me Dave at 1:48am ……

      I couldn’t quite believe what I was reading there ….

      Theresa May unelected UK Leader has said that “There is no opt-out from Brexit and I will never allow devisive Nationalists to undermine the precious Union between the four Nations of our United Kingdom.”

      That’s that then! Scotland’s devisive Nationalists? We know where we stand now. Theresa arrogant May truly lacking in any understanding, no insight whatsoever, that devisive Nationalistic Brexiters, due to sheer numbers, have undermined the precious Union between Scotland and twenty seven European countries.

      Looks as though the dictator’s mask has slipped already and the gloves are well and truly off. Sounds as though she means business and one wonders what lengths she’ll go to, to prevent us from getting our Independence? Day one with over seven hundred to go folks. Hang onto your hats.

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      I certainly think the ScotGov should consider the two question referendum.

      With the UK / rUK going into Brexit, presuming it gets past the accelerated court case due to conclude mid-December, wither with the Royal whatever it’s called, or somehow a vote through the UK Parliament, I think the last thing it wants is distractions so my feeling is there will be no White Papers from UK Gov, and opposition to YES will be left to Ruth. Quite honestly if I was Theresa May, my take on annoying Scotland would be:

      “If you want to stay, stay, if you want to go, go, but for any sake, do it quickly. I’ve got other fish to fry, or we’ll have had our chips”.

      For me everything she says, and everything she does, fits that.

      A lot to think about all the same!

    161. Isabel Melville says:

      A hard Brexit can only be good for an independent Scotland. Big business (currently in London including the banks) would relocate here instead of Paris. Europeans currently in England and Wales could come here and help repopulate the Highlands. Land must first be made available of course, so a few grouse moors will become the housing estates, as they once nearly were.
      Boris has this vision for London. Boris is a ‘high heid yin’ in May”s government. They are planning on keeping the cream while serving the serfs stale bread. Boris wants a trade deal for London, and London only.
      If we get in ahead, and oor Nicola has been laying the groundwork, and get the EU to actually say we would definitely become a member as an independent nation, then we have won the hearts and minds of the majority here in Scotland at indyref2.

    162. Maureen Luby says:

      The EU is nothing if not pragmatic and there have already been hints of a ‘transitional holding pen’ for Scotland, which would remove the need for ‘reapplication’.

    163. Ken500 says:

      It will never happen the Tory separatist will be over thrown. They will plunder as much public money as they can for them and their associates. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow. It is just a cover for Tory multimillionaires to plunder more public cash.The are ruining the world economy just likeThatcher.

      How long will it be for the English working class to caught on. It took 18 years with Thatcher. ‘Loads of money bankers’. The Tories are crashing the banking system and industry again.Never trust a Tory banker, like multimillionaire May. Britain is the most unequal place in the world. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. It makes people sick. People are sick of the slight of Unionist politicians.The lull before the fall.

      How long will Scotland stay around getting fleeced?

    164. Ken500 says:

      Election fraud was committed in 31 constituencies. What is being done about that?

    165. Ken500 says:

      If they voted YES in 2014 they voted YES to staying in Europe. 62% of voters voted to stay in the EU. More NO (Indyref) voters must have voted to stay in the EU, with a lower turnout. It is just a matter of time. The younger folk are in favour of Independence,

    166. Jules says:

      Why would us leaving the EU mean that any further campaign for Indy would be ‘doomed’, Stu?

      Ten more years hitched to Little England, Tory-style, plus the ever-changing demographics (the gradual loss of those born in 30s and 40s who are overwhelmingly pro-Union) would, I think, make Indy a strong possibility. We could then decide whether or not to apply for EU membership based on circumstances at the time.

    167. One_Scot says:

      ‘And fighting for Scottish independence from outside the EU is a doomed project. We might as well give up at that point.’

      That’s my view. If Scotland does not vote Yes in IndyRef2, we are dead.

      The question now is, ‘how much desire does Scotland have to stay alive?’

    168. Paul’s WGD site seems to be under attack. Great difficulty in t-y-p-I-n-g- a post.
      Has the cyber attack by the Yoons started already?

      John Cleese is an upper class Oxbridge racist.
      We do not look up to him, or down on any human being on this planet.

      The Footlights. How to waste time at University,and deprive degree places to genuine students ,before making a lifelong clown of yourself.
      This time we are ready. A short sharp campaign, paralleling the car crash that will be the Brexit humiliation of the Darling Duds of May, the Three Brexiteers, Foxos, Borisos, and Aramidavis,seems the most strategic option; a pincer movement, if you like,the E27 on one flank, and the Scots colony on the other, uniting in a common cause.

    169. Robert Louis says:

      I’m just not sure what motivates people who support independence, when faced with the current situation, insist on making the matter more complex than it is, with talk of multiple questions in a referendum.

      The Uk Government has now made it very simple AND CLEAR, if you want Scotland to remain in the EU, then Scotland must become independent. The question is therefore simple, ‘Should Scotland be an independent country yes/no?

      All this talk of ‘oh but what about indy supporters who want out of the EU etc.. is unfathomably dumb. Yes, they exist, but I’d bet all my money, that almost all of them would prefer independence in these circumstances. Just think, England is not just leaving the EU, they are planning on removing human rights, employment rights, agricultural regulation, pesticide regulation, etc.. etc.. it goes on and on. Who in their right mind would ever choose that.

      Keep it simple. Stop falling for unionist sophistry about currency and other considerations.

      This isn’t rocket science.

      Just as an aside, I have to say I’m surprised at the number of folks posting above, seemingly taken in by the whole ‘you must join the EU’ tosh, used by project fear in indy ref 1. Might I suggest you take time to read this

    170. Macart says:

      The great repeal is the constitutional crisis. It would be Westminster parliament’s attempt to override Scottish democracy, the will of the devolved parliament and our still independent law.

      Now our parly could be dismantled by thone grumpy MPs and Peers I suppose, but in order to do so would require the repeal of the Scotland act and then the creation of a new act which would ignore the primacy of Scots law, Scottish sovereignty and I’d imagine drive a horse and cart through the treaty of union. I’m sure our MPs, MSPs and electorate would just be standing around with their hands in their pockets watching the clouds roll by during all of that. 😀

      No, I don’t think they’ll attempt any of that either. They’re in enough bother as it is with the population across the UK. Remember Mr Cameron’s careless and well publicised remarks on indyref? The one where he let the cat out the bag on her maj and what a narrow squeak the whole thing was?

      The political class will always, but always attempt to subvert the democratic process. They’ll lie, cheat, manipulate, blackmail, beg, bully and bluster, to convince the public to vote the way they want. How and ever, in a 21st century western democracy I’d very much doubt they’d attempt to destroy democratic process and replace it with dictatorship, (though most days it certainly feels that way to people). 🙂

      The reason Cameron had been afraid, was simply because he would have been compelled to abide by the democratic process. As indeed May is compelled right now over Brexit and will be on the result of any indyref2.

      So long as the democratic process exists, there is no need or want for the likes of UDI. If any politician pulls that out of the tool box, its because democracy has failed and the tanks are headed for the border. Its the course no one wants, or wants to see. Its also not needed.

      So long as democracy exists on these islands, all that is required is a simple agreed upon mandate at a ballot. Referendum or GE, doesn’t matter which. If you vote for someone seeking a specific mandate and they win? Then I’d guess its their job to carry out that mandate. 😉

    171. brian lucey says:

      “Out of interest do you foresee Brexit leading to a United Ireland?”
      Not in the shortterm, I think, Most opinion polling gives, at most, about 1/3 voters in NI for such a move. Also, a very large majority of people in the Republic would not support same if it meant, as it almost certainly would, a tax hike – see
      NI gets about 10-15b e pa from the RoUK – thats between 20-25% total of total Gross Government Expenditure. As we are just about at a breakeven budget, that money would have to come from somewhere
      Based on the last time the UK broke up (a set of historical and political precedents which I sense many in Scotland ignoring..) the final settlement would be : NI gets away with no assumption of UK debt BUT the break is clean, apart from contractual and pension ongoing arrangements. In other words, no further subvention.
      So, right now, no.
      But, as the prospect of a hard customs and perhaps travel border on the Island of Ireland comes more and more likely, those views from the North may well change.

    172. galamcennalath says:

      Multiple questions, why?

      We have just had a Holyrood election and an EU referendum. Where Scotland stands, and what mandate its parliament has, is completely clear!

      A majority wish to stay in the EU.

      A parliament was elected with a mandate to call IndyRef2 if necessary.

      There is only one question left for which an answer is needed, should we be independent?

      As for the result of IndyRef1, that was in different times and a different UK.

    173. Glesca Keelie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      3 October, 2016 at 12:32 am

      “Hi Glesca Keelie.

      Re National Grid. Does this help?

      Hi BrianDTT, No, the page I was referring to was live, real time power flows. Updated every few minutes, if I remember.

      The elec. we sent south, and it was 24hrs a day. every time I looked, was huge. Would a gigawatt/hr seem right.

      Thanks anyway.

    174. As a former semi educated tenement dweller, I urge, why don’t you just fuck off, Cleese.
      I would say that, wouldn’t I? I lack Cleese’s Oxbridge education, upper ruling class breeding, and masterful command of the Queen’s English, to offer anything like a coherent and cogent rebuttal of this nasty little piece of Brit Imperial racism.
      So, ‘fuck off, Cleese’, it is.
      The top 200 Universities on the planet:-

      Edinburgh 24th
      Glasgow 76th
      St Andrew’s 86th
      Aberdeen 172nd
      Dundee 185th

      Population of the world 7,000,000,000 (give or take)
      Population of Scotland 5,400.000

      We are too stupid, of course.
      Cleese has obviously been appointed as Minister of Silly Talks to May’s Cabinet.

    175. Robert Louis says:

      So, Theresa May, the unelected Prime Minister of the UK, has said, “There is no opt out from Brexit. And I will never allow divisive nationalists to undermine the precious Union between the four nations of our United Kingdom.”

      This has been excellently dissected by the Wee ginger dug

      This is perhaps the most honest thing ANY Prime minister has said about England’s attitude to Scotland. It is colonialism, pure and simple. That coupled with the racist comments by some old fool from southern England who used to be a comedian, tells us everything Scots need to know of where Scotland fits into this cursed, undemocratic and unwanted union with England.

      As the wee ginger dug very eloquently puts it;

      “There is no precious Union. A Union means a voluntary coming together of partners. A Union means that the differences between those partners are respected and a means found of accommodating them. A Union means consent. A Union in which the largest partner in that Union always gets its own way and the others have to do as it commands is not a Union. It’s a takeover. It’s a demand for obedience. There’s precious little to distinguish it from a colonial enterprise. What precious to Theresa is her right to command, her ability to rule, her capacity for power.”

      I say, let’s get independent, and kick these racist, colonialist southern English Tories out of Scotland for good.

    176. Robert Louis says:

      Glasca Keelie, at 0849am

      I know the page you mean on the power transfers. I can’t find it anymore. It looks like it has been ‘disappeared’.

    177. Tam Jardine says:

      Kaye this morning’s theme: “Are you ready to crack on with Brexit”

      Does one “crack on” with self harm? I have “cracked on” with meetings and jobs of work but that is a strange way of putting it.

      First caller- emphatic yes.

    178. call me dave says:

      Mundell accused of saying the SG sniping from the sidelines as GMS shortbread interview turns pear shaped over May’s pronouncement on Brexit. He denied it!

      The Tories are flying by the seat of their UJ pants blustering along without due regard to the consequences.

    179. Tam Jardine says:

      Call Kaye… caller Bob nails it: I paraphrase: ‘The Scottish Government has got it right… the government in Westminster is hanging itself’

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      That is only the Westminster Establishment’s lying, and long dunned into the United KINGDOM electorates mind, claims on this matter.

      The actual true legality of the matter is plainly stated within that simple little title, “UNITED KINGDOM”“. It is in fact legally only a United kingdom and in spite of the erroneous assumption of the Westminster Establishment since 1706/7, it has never actually ever legally been a single country.

      At best it could be described as a kingdom state or a political union of kingdoms. The union is, was and remains a union of only two kingdoms. However, one of those kingdoms contained, long before 1706/7, three individual countries.

      Furthermore, Until the English Kingdom’s, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688, each individual country was a monarchy and, as the history of Britain will attest, countries can contain many monarchies within its borders.

      So all three countries in the 1706/7 Kingdom of England were former monarchies that were annexed by the Kingdom of England under the law of Divine Right of Kings. The problem the pre-Treaty of Union, Kingdom of England had was that from at least 1320 The Kingdom of Scotland was internationally recognised as NOT being legally ruled under Divine Right of Kings as the Declaration of Arbroath had established that the law of Scotland made the people of Scotland, not their monarchy, sovereign and thus it was the people of Scotland who had divine right.

      Thus, even if the English monarchy defeated, or by other means acquired fealty from the Scottish monarchy, there was no legal way for the English monarch to become sovereign over Scotland. This was shown as true in 1603 when the Scottish monarch inherited the crown of England and attempted to form a United Kingdom.

      He failed to do so. First of all the English Kingdom of 1603 was already legally a, “Constitutional Monarchy”. In a constitutional monarchy the monarch remains the legal owner of everything including their subjects and the parliament but must legally delegate their sovereignty to their Royal Parliament.

      So there was no way that Parliament of England was about to allow the Kingdom of England to be annexed by the Kingdom of Scotland, (under The Divine Right of Kings), so they dredged up an old English legal precedent that stated, “A sovereign, just by being sovereign, could not legally forfeit the sovereignty of the Kingdom”.

      The two kingdoms thus remained independent and that was why a legal Treaty of Union was forced upon the Kingdom of Scotland in 1706/7. It was also why certain articles of union had to be included in the Treaty of Union.

      These included that the law of Scotland must remain independent in perpetuity, That the Scottish currency remained the Pound Sterling but the Scottish banks retain the legal right to print their own banknotes and that the monarch of England could not be head of any Scottish church. Also that the Scottish education system be independent from that of the Kingdom of England.

      So there you go – the legal facts do not support the Westminster claims that they hold sovereignty over the kingdom of Scotland. The truth is that as a bipartite union of kingdoms the way Westminster has divided the United Kingdom up by unequally devolving powers and retaining only England as the United Kingdom has no legal basis in law or fact.

      Quite simply the United Kingdom is legally a union of only two equally sovereign kingdoms and neither can claim sovereignty over the other except by formal agreement and either can withdraw from the union and by doing so the united kingdom is ended.

      They, Westminster, cannot remain a United Kingdom as there are then no other kingdoms to be united with. English law also precludes the legally sovereign people of Scotland being able to renounce their sovereignty.

      Their bland assumptions of overall sovereignty cannot be legally supported by any other evidence than perhaps a Westminster claim of custom and practice. A claim easily discounted as there have been several legal Scottish Claim of Right submissions ignored by Westminster. Yet the mere existence of the claims proves custom and practice has never been accepted but only permitted by the sovereign people of Scotland.

    181. Arabs for Independence says:

      John Cleese – Minister for Silly Talks

    182. So much for Scotland being an equal partner in this union.

      What May’s statement has confirmed is that we are in an Electoral dictatorship and not only the votes of the Scottish but laos the electorate doesn’t matter,

    183. Cymru Rydd says:

      As a very interested observer from Wales, I am in no doubt that Theresa May and her advisers have concocted a devious plan to neutralize any Scottish independence threat. The very use of the words “divisive nationalists” in her speech yesterday shows that this is absolutely central to the Brexit strategy. I think:

      i)She is planning a rapid Brexit, followed by a snap election to cement the Tories’ dominance in Westminster and take full advantage of Labour’s hopeless divisions.This election will all be about “Britain” staking out its new position in the world, and “breaking free” of the European Union.

      ii)A crucial part of all this will be to build up Unionist sentiments in all parts of these isles.

      iii) The above two factors will prevent Scotland from having time or the necessary momentum to hold an Independence Referendum before Brexit is delivered. Bingo for the UK.

      I think Alex Salmond is spot on with his prediction of a 2017 referendum on Scottish Independence. 2019 will just be too late since Brexit will have occurred and a Tory/Ukip dominated Westminster will have seized all the initiative and the moral high ground.

      Scotland now has no choice but to fight fire with fire. Hopefully, as somebody else has pointed out, a 2017 referendum could be part of a pincer movement along with European states against Westminster’s machinations.

      I also suggest that the new referendum question should cover all bases: Scotland to be a sovereign nation state (YES/NO) along with an accompanying YES/NO to the European Union( to cater for the million Scots who voted leave in June)

    184. So much for Scotland being an equal partner in this union.

      What May’s statement has confirmed is that we are in an Electoral dictatorship, and not only the votes of the Scottish but also those of the Welsh and Northern Irish electorates don’t matter.

    185. Dorothy Devine says:

      I admit to being astonished at Ms.May’s short sighted monologue. It reminded me of the accusations flung around by the UK/US against all others who have a different viewpoint and the temerity to state it.

      There is no mirror big enough for Ms May to see ‘ divisive nationalism’ clearly and she certainly has neither the wit nor the will.

    186. schrodingers cat says:

      so.. the end of march…
      if this date slips by even a couple of weeks, it makes the idea of indyref2 in spring 2019 more possible. I still think sept 2018, but the option is now a possibility for nicola. keeping our options open at the mo is wise.

      a few thoughts
      1. the pressure from the EU for TM to press the A50 button is mounting.
      2. the pressure from her own party is mounting, the end of march is 5 weeks before the council elections in england, any further delay could see ukip winning more seats in england.
      3. The end of march date for a50, and the expected economic fallout/crash/wobble/blip happening in the middle of the council election campaign here in scotland. this is good for us.
      4. once A50 button is pressed, a face off between May and Sturgeon over indyref2 is inevitable. This could be a problem if it happens in the middle of the council campaign.
      5. after indyref1, the yes folk swung over to the snp. (snpnef branch effectively dissapeared in the 12 months prior to sept 2014) once indyref2 is called, the snp will swing back to yes. I would rather this happens just after the council elections, not during the campaign.

      Every day past the end of march that may waits to press the button, the better it will be for us.

    187. Andrew Coulson says:

      A very insightful post (and a return to form). My only question (genuinely, a question) is this: when Mrs May became Prime Minister, it seemed to me that she was certain to be in government for the next decade. She had no enemies to the left, except for the SNP and the Corbynite Labour Party, and her enemies on the right are not going to try and stop her forming a government (any more than they tried to stop David Cameron — the idea’s absurd). The only thing, I can see, that _could_ spoil this script, would be if Brexit, in her hands, really had turned into a manifest economic disaster. I know that ‘everyone’ agrees that hard Brexit will be a manifest economic disaster — but if the hard-eyed characters behind Mrs May clearly think that it won’t be: what makes you so sure that conventional wisdom is right? Straight question.

    188. Hamish100 says:

      How many times the bbc call kaye finds a snp voter who supports the uk government over brexit

      The individual as I understand it has never voted snp.

      She obviously does not believe in the sovereignty of the people.

    189. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Marjorie on radio short bread. OMG

    190. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Marjorie out so we can trade with the whole world. The natives don’t want beads and mirrors any more.

    191. Dr Jim says:

      Patrick Harvie wants to be viewed as being more important these days so what about it Patrick start speaking up for the Independence you say the Greens support or is it a case of leave it all to the FM to be called the bad names while the Greens skulk around like Golumb behind the rocks hoping to snatch the ring of power while nobody notices

    192. Ghillie says:

      Exciting times folks = )

    193. cearc says:

      Glesca Keelie,

      When they revamped the website they seem to have hidden it well. No longer a sidebar on the front page.

      mike cassidy,
      nice to see that it is being monitored

      I thought electricity should have been given more attention in the last indyref.

      The fact that we are a net exporter but each of us have to pay more for our electricity than southern Engerlanders, effectively subsidising them.

    194. call me dave says:

      Excellent again Mr Peffers.

      Scotland is in a hostage situation not in a union!

    195. Les Wilson says:

      I think Any threat to cross border trade is absolute bluff. While we may , no will, get our trade figures with rUk constantly thrown at us, they always miss the argument of how much rUk does with Scotland. There is their problem.

      If they aimed to damage mutual trade out of spite, then in what could be very hard times, are they going to explain to many thousands of employees who’s companies service Scotland’s needs every day of the week, that they are are destroying their jobs simply out of spite?

      They sell everything to Scotland, it will be very big numbers, to create deliberate barriers to that trade, would be madness to the extreme and further drop the rUk into the cesspit it already is.

    196. Edward says:

      Just listening some idiot called Marjory on ‘Call Kaye’
      waffling that most of what Scotland produces goes to England

      She also stated that Scotland should get out of the EU and start trading with the rest of the World

      I am totally fed up with idiots that spout this kind of garbage
      There is NO system within the UK for measuring how much ‘trade’ is sold between the nations that make up the UK

      Its a piece of waffle that unionists keep trotting out in their stupid attempt to put Scotland down.
      Tom Harris (who was on earlier) also came out with the same guff

      As for trading with the rest of the World, actually Scotland exports more in terms of value to the rest of the World per capita, compared with England. The UK as a whole imports more than it exports, as the UK’s manufacturing base is nearly non existent, as its has practically everything manufactured overseas!

      The sad thing about Marjory is that she claims to be an SNP supporter and a supporter of independence.

      She even stated that if Scotland became independent and in the EU, there would be a hard border, which would affect movement of goods south as well as affecting families (where the fuck have I heard that stupid argument before?)

      As for Teresa May and the muppet Tory’s , she is now stating she wants a ‘hard brexit’ as she wants to control immigration, but states that she expects to be able to negotiate a unique exclusive deal for the UK.

      Have news for May, that aint going to happen, there is no negotiation, the UK either accepts the same terms as other country’s, such as Norway, or it will not get any deal at all

    197. Clydebuilt says:

      BBC Radio Scotland 9am News “Mike Russell Scotland’s So Called Brexit Minister”

      BBC Radio Scotland News. The title given was so long winded I didn’t take it down ……. Basically I Think it ment Scotland’s Brexit Minister,

      So they probably got a phone call of complaint from the Government, and this was their cheeky response.
      Akin to refusing to call ISIL…. Daesh…..because Alex Salmond said they should be referred to as Daesh.

    198. dandy dons 1903 says:

      So Cruella Deville May has opened her big mouth and spouted some hypocritical drivel. Lets hope she keeps bellowing inane brit nonsense at Scotland it can only help our quest.
      IndyRef in 2017 fingers crossed.

    199. T May at a microphone in the Conference broom cupboard, Davidson sombre looking, hands clasped in silent prayer, a tory boy with a glass of red plonk, and a handful of the Scottish contingent, and the press camp, putting Scotland and her wee Scottish handmaiden in their place.
      Tam Jardine: I listened in for a few minutes to Call Kaye Adams.
      ‘Donald’ from Inverness, a Tory Boy with cultured fee paying school faux Oxbridge Received Pronunciation with a quaint hint of a Scottish burr, obviously accustomed to spouting right wing guff on behalf of the Tories, and BBC North Briton place man, urges us all to get on with it, that there will be tremendous opportunities, and after allwe voted No in 2014.
      Tom Harris was on the line. You may remember that he was one of the ‘Fucking Useless’ New Labour new conservative Scottish gravy trainers whom we kicked out in May 16, and who now is a ‘consultant’, and regular guest on BBC North Britain, spouting his wisdom and drawing on his considerable failure as a politician, mouthing the same,
      ‘the UK voted to leave’, and ‘Scotland voted to stay part of the UK in 2014′, and besides agriculture and fisheries powers will be devolved from Brussels to Edinburgh following Brexit’, Better Together Red Tory guff.
      Tom Harris lies.
      Notionally fisheries and agriculture MAY be devolved to Holyrood by Westminster following Brexit, or it may not. Most of us suspect that it will not happen, and May’s declaration of the Divine Right of Westminster to crush the Scots yesterday confirms our fears. If we go along with the madness of Brexit, which we overwhelmingly rejected in Scotland, then we shall be at the mercy of an English far right rabidly anti Scottish Government for decades to come.WM will still be doling out the Fish and Farm Cash, which will be slashed under Tory Cuts.
      Tom Harris is touting for business, and has morphed into an arch right wing Unionist Tory Boy.
      Fear not, Mr Harris, when we vote Yes and remain within the EU, you can still retain your rUK English passport, and even settle in England’s Green and Pleasant Land, apparently.
      You will be of no loss Up Here.
      Kaye Adams has obviously studied 1984’s Ministry of Truth guidelines.
      Her summaries of ‘Donald from Inverness’, and Tom Harris’ Unionist propaganda, lies, and faux history of the 2014 Referendum, urged us all to stop ‘dancing around’, twice, and that ‘we’ should just get on with it, and so on.
      The Big Brother repetition of the Unionist message to the listening proles.
      Brexit is good, Brexit is good, Brexit is good, Brexit is good…
      Ten minutes of BBC Tory Towers is about all I could take.
      They are scared stiff this time. They know that they have lost, and it shows.
      There is not even a pretence that we are Better Together now.
      Donald from Inverness and Tom Harris have spoken. We’re well and truly screwed; get over it.
      I know a reliable removal firm, for any of the 700,000 Scots citizens who would reportedly flee South when we attain Self Determination.
      We’ll need all the extra space for car workers and bankers fleeing North anyway.
      Swings and roundabouts.

    200. Capella says:

      Caught the end of Call Kaye to hear “Marjorie” claim to be an independence supporter who thinks Scotland should just shut up and let the UK get on with BREXIT. She and her like minded friends have read all the treaties and resent EU bureaucracy.

      Perhaps the SNP should call a meeting of all their anti-Europe members for a wee chat about the relative merits of UK union and EU union?.

    201. Hamish100 says:

      iScotland in the EU with no nuclear weapons, no illegal wars,no need to pay for a Chinese French nuke power station that will go over budget, no so called high speed train to the north (Birmingham).

      Look forward. Upgrade our sea connections for trade to the EU. improve air links to our fellow EU..

      Will I feel sorry watching rukers standing in huge queues trying to get in and out of the EU. No

      As for the million Scots who voted leave. I now understand at least 1/2 million of the voters were not Scottish but from other countries.

    202. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – well said. Also, if the Scottish people have been sovereign since 1320, surely the Treaty of Union, which was opposed by the Scottish people, is null and void anyway being an agreement between two sets of unelected aristocrats?

    203. I also see Ruthless Davidson claims she will be first minister in 2021.

      If Brexit turns out to be the disaster some are predicting it will be for Scotland and its economy does she really believe the Scottish electorate will be forgiving and forgetful in 2012?

    204. Mike says:

      The economy the EU the currency. All Red herrings.
      If you want to guarantee an Indy ref win then court the pensioners and elderly.
      Find a way to show them their needs will be paramount their pensions not only safe but improved their sense of personal security intact and Indyref 2 will be a walk over.
      The age demographic in Scotland is the key to any referendum on any issue.
      The Fact is in Scotland the elderly have the numbers and influence to determine any vote.
      They are the key!

    205. DerekM says:

      @ Jules

      The Rev could be right about that Jules the only reason we got our parliament was because of the UK democratic deficit being challenged by the EU,take away the EU and westminster will be able to return to the way things were.

      The tories have been fighting this since day one they never wanted us to have any representation and would shut down devolution in a heartbeat if they got the chance.

      If we do not get out before brexit say goodbye to our parliament and without our parliament calls for indyref2 could just be ignored.

      Brexit has never been about independence for the UK its always been about keeping Scotland`s wealth in English hands,they need our oil to continue to be able to borrow the ludicrous sums they do.

      Hence the desperation to try to ignore the Scottish EU remain vote and pull us out the EU against our will.

      Without us they are broke so they will do everything to stop this and their first step must be to end any possible reprisals from the EU best way to do this is leave the EU.

      For them its a choice of oil or EU and the oil wins that one hands down since the EU is an escape route for Scotland`s golden goose,they intend to clip our wings so we cant fly away and stuff us back in the UK cage.

      We cant let that happen as it would leave us only one way to gain our freedom the Irish solution.

    206. Drat a typo, it should have said 2021 at the end of my post at 3 October, 2016 at 10:32 am

    207. Robert Peffers says:

      Capella says: 2 October, 2016 at 10:52 pm:

      ” … She’s wrong there. As Mr Peffers has pointed out umpteen times, there are not four countries in the Union. There are only two – Scotland and England.”

      Wee correction, Capella, There are only two, “Kingdoms”, in the United KINGDFOM. Which is why they call it a, United Kingdom and not a united country. It is only the Westminster propaganda that uses Kingdom & Country as if the two terms were synonymous.

      They are not synonymous. The history of Britain shows that when the several islands that compose Britain were just one country there were numerous small kingdoms and principalities in Britain. Indeed even when the British archipelago began to separate into distinct countries those countries still contained many smaller kingdoms and principalities. For example Northumberland was once a kingdom in its own right.

      This was in the days when the rule of law was, “Divine Right of Kings”, under which law a monarch or prince who defeated another in battle annexed that defeated monarch’s kingdom and tagged it onto his existing kingdom. The same law applied when a male monarch married a female monarch. Women were legally owned by the husband and thus their kingdom was tagged onto the male partner’s kingdom. It also applied to inheriting kingdoms from parent monarchs.

      Divine Right was the norm in Christendom but Scotland bucked that trend in 1320 when, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, was accepted by the leader of a;; Christendom, The Pope in Rome. The Kingdom of England, then composed of three countries by the rule of Divine right, only partly gave up the rule of Divine Right in 1688 during the English Kingdom’s, “Glorious Revolution”.

      As the English legal system was still, “Divine Right”, when the non-sovereign King of Scots, James VI of Scots, inherited the crown of Kingdom of England in 1603, he could not, under English law, renounce the legal sovereignty of the people of Scotland, (confirmed in 1320), as he was only the protector of the Sovereign people of Scotland’s sovereignty. So he cold not just tag the Kingdom of England onto the Scottish Kingdom.

      This is why the two Kingdoms still remained independent until 1707 after the treaty of Union. Indeed it was the actual reason a Treaty of Union was forced upon Scotland in the first place.

      So the legal fact is that the United Kingdom is NOT a union of the four countries that it contains. It only legally unites kingdoms.

      So both Wales & Ireland’s signatures were not required on the treaty document as they were both already parts of the Kingdom of England, (note they were not legally parts of the country of England). There are only two, equally sovereign, Kingdoms in the United Kingdom but that United Kingdom is composed of four countries with three of them originally parts of the Kingdom of England.

      The rule of law is that when any legal member of a bipartite union, or agreement, withdraws from the union or agreement then the Status Quo Ante, (the status before the union or agreement), is reinstated. Like, for example in a marriage divorce, If either partner divorces the other partner they both return to the Status Quo Ante of being single again. You cannot have one partner returning to being single while the other partner remains married to them.

      So it is ludicrous for Westminster to claim that the only country of Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom will still exist. The reason being that the treaty is of two kingdoms and not of four countries and it is the Kingdom of Scotland that is leaving because ONLY Scotland in the United Kingdom is both an individual country & an individual Kingdom.

      The propaganda that confused the terms Kingdom and Country began by Westminster long before they forced the treaty of union upon the Scots. If you need confirmation of that consider the Battle of Culloden was fought in 1745 almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed yet the Battle of Culloden is claimed to be the United Kingdom putting down a rebellion. Yet the claimed Jacobite Rebellion began due to the then independent English Parliament holding, “The Glorious Revolution”, when they deposed the monarch they shared with the still independent Scotland and importing King Billy & Queen Mary as monarchs of England.

      However, because Scotland was still an independent Kingdom in 1688, and so the Scots could not be rebelling against King Billy & Queen Mary for the simple reason that Scotland had not deposed King James VII and you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own.

      It is all Westminster propaganda and it always has been.

    208. Glamaig says:


      thanks for the link and I think it can’t be posted enough

      If I read that right Scotland is currently exporting 1GW to England???? And its not even that windy today.

      As is the Netherlands.

      I kinda see why they are desperate for Hinckley Point at any price.

      We have them over a barrel with power, oil and gas, food and drink exports, and water in the future. No wonder they are desperate to hold onto us.

      What pisses me off, and what fired me up to join the SNP and get active is not the fact that we prop them up, but the fact they cover it up and lie about it. I’ll never forget summer 2014 and the lies and pish pouring out of the media on behalf of Westminster. Worst of all are the Scots who are complicit in it. Call Kaye this morning, professional and sleekit propaganda dressed up as an innocent call in program.

    209. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Another glowing example of BBC impartiality.

      “BBC accused of encouraging racial tension by trying to get English Defence League to appear in the audience on Question Time.”

      Sorry it is a Torygraph link and I can’t do the archive thingy.

    210. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – point taken. It always bears repeating. Slowly the light dawns! 🙂

    211. Kevin Evans says:

      Indyref2 we should have ballot papers that can be tampered with or seen by the likes of Davidson before voting is over.

      I suggest doing like the lobbies in Westminster – 2 doors. One saying “yes” the other “no” behind the yes door a free bar and behind the no door a train departing for England. No a high speed one of course.

    212. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      DerekM says at 10:44 am

      “We cant let that happen as it would leave us only one way to gain our freedom the Irish solution.”

      What solution is that Derek an armed uprising?

      Grow up man Scotland will get her independence via the ballot box, not by the bullet and bomb.

      Agent Provocateur perchance??

    213. galamcennalath says:

      Mike says:

      “The economy the EU the currency. All Red herrings.
      If you want to guarantee an Indy ref win then court the pensioners”

      I agree pensioners should be No1 target. A commitment to iScottish pensions being among EU best, rather than worst, would be a good move.

      Next I would say, get our voters out on the day. Turn out in NO areas has higher than YES.

      Also, EU citizens are ideal converts. It is said many voted last time because they feared leaving the EU! We need to get our resident EU vote out, every one of them!

      But every little counts and adds up. For instance farmers and those relying on a viable rural economy need to realise that inside the EU and away from SEEngland centric WM is in their interests.

    214. Papadox says:

      In 1707, when the Scottish parliament voted to dissolve itself and send representatives to the parliament in London, the Speaker of the English House of Commons exulted, “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.”

      Did the people of Scotland get a vote? We’re the Scottish MPs bribed? We’re we bought and sold for English gold?

      Don’t think anybody can complain about that exercise in democracy. Some things never change! RULE BRITTANIA.

    215. Smallaxe says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker:

      O/T 2nd Oct 8:30pm
      Message left for you.

      Peace Always

    216. heedtracker says:

      Who’d be a teamGB economist, as every time a tory opens their gob, something really bad happens, or at least its hard to understand two things, why is oil up and the pound down, and why do voters think the tory party’s any good at running the UKOK economically? Ok I know the answer, look at Labournomics and there’s no money left style of UKOK Crash Gordo catastrofuck.

      “Monday 10:50 BST. The fourth quarter of 2016 is off to a cautiously optimistic start with crude back at more than $50 a barrel while stock indices are heading higher, helped by easing concerns about the health of Deutsche Bank.

      The pound, however, is missing out on the strong start to October, back under heavy pressure after the UK set a deadline for starting the process of exiting the EU, taking it to a three-year low against the euro.”

      That’s the FT, fluffing the tories since 1816.

    217. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Glamaig says at 10:48 am

      “If I read that right Scotland is currently exporting 1GW to England???? And its not even that windy today.”

      Now if that is 1GW per hour, that would retail at £80,000 per hour at household usage rates.

      I’m unaware what the actual export price would be at the minute or indeed what it could realistically be in an iScotland.

      So potentially £1,920,000 over a 24 hour period if this is average or £700,800,000 per annum.

    218. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 3 October, 2016 at 12:08 am:

      ” … Jeez! What planet are these folk on?”

      Unfortunately, Dr Jim,, “These People”, you speak about, inhabit not only the same planet as the rest of us but also the same continent, United Kingdom, Kingdom of Scotland, country of Scotland and the same cities, town’s, villages, hamlets and areas as the rest of us.

      The thing is they wrongly imagine, either due to Westminster propaganda, congenital idiocy or both together, that we just all belong to the same unified country.

      Factually, and legally, that single unified country of, “The United Kingdom”, is exactly what the words in that title describe it as – a single united kingdom, which is not the same thing as a single united country.

      Mayhap you might consider it worth while to make that point crystal clear to them at every opportunity?

      I find the most effective method of making the point clear is to demand they show proof this, “country”, they refer to, be it, “The United Kingdom”, “Britain”, “Great Britain”, or simply just, “The country”, exists in fact.

      As it doesn’t exist in fact they will find it impossible to prove it does. If nothing else it will give them, and anyone overhearing the request for proof, pause for thought. Even a tiny doubt on their part is a major step towards independence of government for Scots and Scotland.

      I wonder how many times I have been told, “You’re just being pedantic”, when adopting this tactic? To which the retort is, “Aye! Richt! Sae ye canna prove it then? Sae yer jist been tellin lies then”.

    219. Desimond says:

      The John Cleese thing…if its just a retweet then perhaps he was showing up the Puckridge fellows idiocy in the first place?

    220. DerekM says:

      @ Jockanese Wind Talker

      I think the phrase “thieving bastards” covers the electricity situation.

      Though they like to use the term pooling and sharing best of both world.

      I prefer the first option.

    221. DerekM says:

      Did i say at any time that is what we should do Jockanese Wind Talker did i ?

      Learn to read bawbag

    222. orri says:

      Given the amount of moaning about the vast majority of those in charge of our newspapers, why get on our high horse when those particular people are insulted?

      Also, Westminster is dissolved prior to each GE so if that’s what happened to the pre 1703 Scots Parliament it doesn’t mean it was abolished. In fact from reports it seems it reconvened as, mainly, in joint session with the parliament of England/Wales. That it pointlessly convened in order to rubber stamp the decisions of Westminster might be a clue that it did not intend to abolish itself, merge itself or be subsumed by Westminster.

      Another thing. As a counter to the Declaration of Arbroath it’s said that those mentioned in it were the nobility of the time. That might be true but fails as an argument given the extension of the franchise over the years to commoners is the basis of the various Parliament Acts which in turn implies that in Scotland the people are sovereign. Not forgetting that in at least some of Scotland there was still a clan system and a fair number of the signatories did so as representatives of their people rather than in their own right.

    223. Muscleguy says:

      I think that a lot of the poorer people in Scotland who voted Leave did so for the same basic reasons why they also voted Yes in the indyref. When you think your life cannot get much worse you will vote for any change.

      They might need nudging back to Yes but I doubt many of them are hardcore Eurosceptics anyway.

      And besides, once you have contemplated Yes it is much easier to contemplate it again than if you never have.

      Now the phony war seems to be over is the time to get out there and engage people. Point out how the Brexit is being run for the benefit of the haves, not the have nots with Rights about to be put on a bonfire etc. Whereas Yes is for social justice and a more equal Scotland.

    224. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      DerekM says at 11:31 am

      “Did i say at any time that is what we should do Jockanese Wind Talker did i ?

      OK, Derek you must be talking about some other “Irish solution” in your post at 10:44 am (and were not insinuating armed insurrection)?

      I’m sure you can expand on your “Irish solution” comment to clear up my ignorance.

      Oh, and as for being a Bawbag, I probably am at times.

      Anyway, you stay classy Derek 🙂

      I’ll wait out for your “Irish solution” clarification.

    225. Papadox says:

      The Tory party conference platform seems to be missing the red paint? Subliminal message?

      A country that works FOR EVERYONE (in the establishment) no peasants wanted.

    226. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Smallaxe says at 11:15 am

      Got your message and left a response on OT Smallaxe.

    227. heedtracker says:

      Dropped by toryboy conference, this lunatic’s at the podium, repatriate our tory sovereignty, control our tory borders, watch out for space monsters. Proud Scotbuts in half educated tenements must be very proud obedient retainers today.

    228. Smallaxe says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker:

      Got it my friend
      Peace Always

    229. heedtracker says:

      Hammond says markets have calmed since they won their UKOK freedom, as the pound drops even further.

      Ok back to reality, tune in again at 1 PM BBC UKOK time, for another Proud Scotbut obedient retainer, half educated in a tenement.

      1:00 PM – 1:15 PM
      A look back at part of an episode of coast. Neil Oliver takes the team to Cornwall, England’s most coastal county. He discovers more about the fishing industry in the area and about the relationship between Cornwall and the rest of England. Miranda Krestovnikoff discovers how nature can turn a shipwreck into a sanctuary for a remarkable variety of wildlife.

    230. heedtracker says:

      Muscleguy says:
      3 October, 2016 at 11:43 am
      I think that a lot of the poorer people in Scotland who voted Leave did so for the same basic reasons why they also voted Yes in the indyref. When you think your life cannot get much worse you will vote for any change

      Just accept that some people, where er you go, just don’t like foreigners. Its that simple.

    231. Luigi says:

      Dorothy Devine says:

      3 October, 2016 at 9:42 am

      I admit to being astonished at Ms.May’s short sighted monologue. It reminded me of the accusations flung around by the UK/US against all others who have a different viewpoint and the temerity to state it.

      There is no mirror big enough for Ms May to see ‘ divisive nationalism’ clearly and she certainly has neither the wit nor the will.

      I think Teresa May has decided, realistically, that the “Scottish Problem” ain’t going to be solved within the union, and the constitutional crisis can only get worse from now on, and so she will try and force the issue and scrape another NO victory whilst BT are still ahead and before the demographics turn completely against the union. She will insult us and goad us and try and get it out f the way so she can focus on BREXIT for her own (BritNat) idea of independence.

      A 51% NO win is still a NO win, and that is what the yoons will aim for. Hold the line, cheps. With the UK press and the BBC fully on board; and a huge, stubborn, residual grey vote; they could certainly pull it off again IMO. Nicola has to get the timing just right.

      And if NO win by 51%. Well, if this is coupled with a dramatic downturn tin the Scottish economy, I would say all hell breaks loose in the following five years. We have to avoid this scenario at all costs, but it will be difficult. A narrow No victory would lead to IndyRef3 within the following ten years, but do we really want another decade of this nonsense? We need to win next time and save our people years of pain.

    232. Dr Jim says:

      See if the Unionists win how do they see that changing my mind
      Do the Unionists expect me to vote differently in future
      If the Unionists punch me in the face all day will I give my heart to them

      What do they think is going to happen after?

    233. Valerie says:

      This will go down well.

      Andrea Ledsom says folk need to get out there fruit picking.

      This moron obviously thinks this will deter our Euro friends, and get the likes of Ukippers out in the fields.

      The strawberrygate thing was obviously a precursor. She must know the seasonal European pickers are there, because it’s beneath Britnats.

      Taking back control of the fruit!

    234. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Robert Louis
      Glesca Keelie

      Is this what you’re looking for re Elect. demand?

    235. Kevin says:

      I’m surprised that in all these arguments of UK vs EU, the simple fact never comes up: iScotland would have more power in the EU, than it would ever have in the UK.

      Few years after joining EU, the iScotland would receive the veto right and would be able to block the unfavorable legislations.

      It wouldn’t compare to the veto power of the current UK, a founding member. But it would still be a mighty political power, the Scotland, as part of UK, would never ever enjoy.

    236. heedtracker says:

      Why the fcuk is BBC 24 news tv broadcasting live the tory party freak show?

    237. call me dave says:


      Tesco’s importing porridge into Scottish stores and Torrance
      saying… well, lots of not very much as usual.

    238. Bob Mack says:

      Philip Hammond at conference. Honestly you could not make this up. Remember when the SNP proposed borrowing to invest in infrastructure and were ridiculed in the Commons by all sides, and on TV by the likes of Andrew Neil for adding to debt ?
      Well today ,Mr Hammond is announcing those very things proposed by the SNP, and is being lauded for forward thinking.
      It makes me sick.

    239. DerekM says:

      The Irish solution is UDI then war and if you care to read you will see i said we cant allow that to happen.

      But then you just opened your gub and sprayed out pish even accused me one of the baddest cybernat trolls in the fight for independence as an agent of the state lmao.

      Now i will not reply to anything else you have to say as far as i am concerned you are not worth arguing with and i also dont want to turn this thread into a personal slagging match which you started by calling me a yoon spy.

    240. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Bob Mack says at 12:13 pm

      Aye Bob, Philip Hammond pinching SNP Policy is exactly the same thing that John McDonell did at the Labour Conference last week.

      They are devoid of progressive policy but remember:

      If it is SNP = SNP Baaad.

      If it is Tory (regardless of colour) = Good.

      No doubt Scotland’s high quality journalists (stop sniggering at the back) will point out this hypocrisy via their in depth investigative reportage in tomorrows papers 😉

    241. Craig P says:

      This is where we find out how many of the 55 are genuinely British nationalists and how many were just eatin’ their cereal. There must be a minimum of 30% of the population who will never under any circumstances give up their British nationality – people like my parents who expressed a desire to move to England rather than live in a Scotland that wasn’t run from London – perhaps more if we consider the 10% rUK born. So even with all the disadvantages Brexit gives the UK it will still be a tough sell for a clear majority.

    242. galamcennalath says:

      Craig P says:

      “30% of the population who will never under any circumstances give up their British nationality”

      30% is the recurrent figure which surveys find. They may say they are beyond conversion but the UK they subscribe to is probably going to change considerably!

      I reckon many take they stance because they have swallowed a lifetime of propaganda which says the UK is always the best-est.

      Their core belief that nothing could surpass their UK is about to take a bit of a battering!

      Many among this group are motivated by self interest. It will be interesting to see, over the next couple of years, how many actually put their ‘principles’ before their lifestyle.

    243. heedtracker says:

      Parp. Bit touchy, this obedient retainer. Must hurt though, to get mocked like this, by England’s greatest living Englishman too.

      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 14h14 hours ago
      Blair McDougall Retweeted John Cleese
      1. Fraser is ‘tenement’!? 2. Arse.Blair McDougall added,

      John Cleese @JohnCleese
      Why do we let half-educated tenement Scots run our English press ? Because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers ?

    244. Alistair says:

      “The problem of the Yes voters who also voted Leave is one that looms large”

      Is the solution not to join the EFTA with the same deal as Norway, promising a second EU joining referendum a later date? It would suit a lot of people and businesses, as well as the EU to an extent. Norway’s main loss is the financial services passport, but Scotland will be losing that anyway and might, with Norway’s help, negotiate for it to be extended to EFTA countries.

    245. Scott Borthwick says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      2 October, 2016 at 11:03 pm

      Scott Borthwick says at 9:32 pm

      “If Brexit happens and Scotland is stuck with rUK you can forget about continued access to fishing grounds for our good friends in Galicia.

      The Tories will sell our fishing grounds out to the Chinese and there will be ‘boats on station’ fishing 24/7 with no employment law constraints/controls feeding large Klondikers like they do off the coasts of Africa etc.”

      You may well be right, but my understanding is that fisheries are not reserved under the Scotland Acts. In order for Westminster to do this, they would need to amend the Scotland Acts to reserve powers to Westminster which are currently ceded to the EU.

      I’m not saying they won’t try this, but it would require legislative consent.

    246. Undeadshuan says:

      The more I see how mays government behaves, the more im reminded of orwells 1984.

      We need to be independent before brexit is completed to be in the EU timetable to remain in Eu.

      Its a narrow window, probably we need indyref2 within 12 months of article 50 being invoked.

    247. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      DerekM says at 12:20 pm

      I’ve left a message on OT for you at 12:46 pm as I agree regarding “turning this thread into a personal slagging match”

      But just to clarify:

      I did not accuse you of being a Yoon spy.

      A spy is defined as:

      “A person employed by a government or other organization to secretly obtain information on an enemy or competitor.”

      I in fact asked if you were an Agent Provocateur which is defined as:

      “A person employed to induce others to break the law so that they can be convicted.”

      Sorry if this hurt your feelings, but I felt asking the question was relevant giving your comment on “The Irish solution” and what I thought you were implying, which you then confirmed in your post at 12:20 pm that The Irish solution was “UDI then war”.

      Like I said at 11:44 am “I can be a Bawbag at times”.

    248. Bob Mack says:

      So, the Tories were elected on a manifesto of reducing the deficit and yet today they have made it very clear they have stolen the SNP ‘S kilt and are going to increase the deficit to invest in “chosen” infrastructure probably in England.

      Is it just me or are the electorate who have endured austerity for the past few years as thick as mince?

    249. Graeme Doig says:

      55 mins of the John beattie RS show and not one political discussion. Oh apart from the Tory economic ppb at the start.

      Is there some political narrative happening today that would merit a news blackout?

    250. scooter says:

      This, as far as I am concerned, has always been the nightmare scenario. As I argued for Scottish independence during the referendum, I was always concerned (amongst other things) that the SNP were pro-EU and people would say that that was something for debate after independence was achieved.

      Then we had the EU referendum with the subtext of the possibility of a second referendum if Scotland voted one way and England the other. I suspected that the SNP would play that bogey ace and it wasn’t long before it grew its own legs. I wonder how many people voted to stay in the EU just for that reason.

      Now, in the perfect storm, with harlequin like political polar division across every axis in Scotland and the rest of the UK, I fear that Scotland may cut its nose off to spite its face.

    251. One_Scot says:

      Maggie May’s message to Scotland,

      ‘Put up or shut up’.

      Stand on your own two feet, or stay down.

      What’s it to be Scotland?

    252. heedtracker says:

      Is there some political narrative happening today that would merit a news blackout?

      Scotland’s irrelevant. Its what we voted NO for, UK irrelevance. Massive BBC lunchtime tv news tory propaganda blitz too, toryboy’s laying out post Brexit economy, parp.

    253. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Graeme Doig –

      Aye, noted.

      Half an hour of interviews with joggers.

      They’re cutting out the awkward squad (i.e. us) and just firing everything right into The Memory Hole.

    254. cearc says:

      With Scotland potentially still in the EU, Westminster is totally powerless in negotiating any interim trade deal with the EU.

      They have no choice but to import electricity (water and gas as well unless they intend to tanker it from somewhere). Running down to look at the notice in the leccy shop to see what times you will have juice next week just isn’t an option. There are too many interrelated systems feeding information to each other, they all need to keep running.

      The electricity supply situation really needs to be exploited, together with the fact any EU trade deal that they have to accept to keep the lights on will also apply to Scotland (in the EU).

      We have an export boom right there. Any losses of trade to the south will be more than balanced by the essential fuels being added to our export figures rather than hidden in the muddy shared pools.

    255. louis.b.argyll says:

      If, after independence, there was a reasonable case to hold an EU IN/OUT referendum so be it.

      I think it would be highly unlikely, AFTER independence, as we would have negotiated our membership from a STRONG position.

      80% of the Scottish electorate didn’t vote leave.

    256. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 October, 2016 at 11:38 pm:

      “The £4 billion in the BoE is actually owned by the three note issuing banks to cover the Scottish banknotes in circulation 100%, and if they stop issuing those banknotes, they can get their money back. They did it basically as marketing.”

      No they did not do it as marketing, yesindiref2. It is totally due to the agreement of a legally binding article of union in the Treaty of Union 1706/7

      The Scottish banks, all of them, have two choices as to banknotes. The Banks in England, all of them have only one choice and, for Sterling, they must use Bank of England notes. They do however, deal in all currencies if they wish to.

      The Scottish banks, if they want to print their own notes, must lodge special large value bank notes to the value of whatever total the Sterling notes value they issue. These large value notes, (and all bank notes are legally Promissory notes, i.e. “I promise to pay the bearer on demand here at, (address), the sum off, (value and signature)).

      As you can see all banknotes are really just legal IOUs. The whole point of banknotes is that they become a commodity that can be traded on the open currency Market. In other words they become international trading currencies.

      Which is why those special, large value, Scottish notes in the BofE vault are kept in the BofE vault. It prevents the Scottish Pound Sterling entering the open currency market in competition to the BofE pound Sterling.

      Now you know why the Westminster Establishment shit its communal drawers when the SNP were seeking to use Sterling as an independent Scotland’s currency.

      Backed by an oil & gas economy, and the superior Scottish per capita GDP, it is almost certain that a Scottish Pound Sterling would rapidly gain in value and eclipse the English pound with a corresponding drop in that pound’s value.

      As anyone with brains must realise the reason that Westminster is so ready to lie, cheat and threaten against independence for Scotland is because the are dependent upon the, mostly hidden, revenue from Scotland.

      You can bet your last pound that if Scotland and Scots were actually the drain upon the Westminster shysters they claim we all are we would have been forced into independence on 2 May 1707.

    257. Valerie says:

      Scooter @ 12.59

      I know what you mean. If the horror of what is being exposed, the new drop in the £, no single market, the ‘meritocracy’ of the Tories, grammar schools, Hinckley don’t break through, nothing will.

      This is the start, worse is to come. This country is bankrupt, and they are going to borrow more. We are called divisive nationalists, by politicians that are happy to insult the EU, and expect them to cut them a good deal.

      If Scotland doesn’t take its independence when it’s offered, we are totally sunk. The mere thought of it is driving me to consider moving out of the country. I know I’m lucky to even have the possibility to consider moving. I can’t bear what will happen if we stay.

    258. Flower of Scotland says:

      I’m beginning to think that “Unionists” are trying to push Scotland into an early referendum that they think that we will lose.

      There,s David Torrance egging on Nicola Sturgeon to have a 2nd Indy Ref. I’m sure that they have a plan to bring the whole of the “British State” down on us like a ton of bricks.

      They’ve done it once and they think that they can do it again. They can’t afford for us to leave the UK. We are their “cash cow”

      I’m sure GCHQ has been successful in its interviewing of possible “internet” spies. We are ready for them on here!

    259. heedtracker says:

      BBC r4 lunchtime news also spectacularly matching BBC lunchtime news for that grand old vote tory propaganda.

      Let them eat fruit.

    260. liz says:

      Brilliant posts on here today.

      Lets put to bed having to join the Euro -this is nonsense and has been debunked on numerous occasions.

      The indy leave voters must choose between these options.
      The Rev mentioned a few posts ago that about 33% have this choice.
      I’ve had a convo on twitter with indy/leave voters and a lot have said they will abstain.
      It’s up to them but to me that’s stupid.

      In the National Survey that’s happening now from the SNP, there is an option on how much you want Scotland to retain it’s EU membership.
      The smart choice would be to vote ‘totally against’ for this group – we can always have an EU ref at some later date.

      If we remain in the UK we will have exactly what @Jockanese Wind Talker says – the fishing rights will be sold to China, TTIP will go ahead and the Yanks will take everything and Fracking will happen – that’s your choice indy/leave voters.

      @mike cassidy – thanks for the electric info – very interesting.

      Those concerned about cheaper workers reducing wages, in the EU as an independent country, we will have our own input, not WMs, so hopefully we could address this.

      Lastly those criticising John Cleese, your right it’s a racist statement but I was laughing up me sleeve, because he is getting at the very PSB that we also dislike.

      Those that have sold their souls, their dignity and their pride for the Queens 20 pieces of silver and I delight in the fact that this is what the English elite think of them – they deserve no less

    261. brian lucey says:

      “The Irish solution is UDI then war and if you care to read you will see i said we cant allow that to happen.”
      Actually that only happened after several attempts at peaceful parliamentary based evolution. If the 1912 Home Rule bill had gone through we would have had a happy dominion, with King and Country etc. Alas, an army mutiny and a civil insurrection in NI put paid to that. As late as 1916 the Rebels were booed and mocked in the destroyed heart of Dublin. It was really the executions of said rebels plus attempts towards conscription that pushed the 1918 elected MP’s to sit and declare UDI. Even then they hoped for essentially the 1912 solution but on the same day as they sat they were, in effect, bounced into war by a localised, unauthorised, unsanctioned ambush of police. Thereafter it was all downhill

      Nations take a long time to be pushed to the brink.

    262. Joannie says:

      Martin McGuinness getting very grumpy at Teresa May on the lunch time news in Norn Iron, although not reported on the main news I notice. Her arrogant comment about divisive nationalists beggars belief given both recent developments in Scotland and her responsibilities as a co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement.

      This government is a complete shambles.

    263. Dan Huil says:

      Britnat hypocrisy on show from Hammond’s fiscal u-turn, from Davidson’s u-turn about Boris Johnson [he’s now wonderful apparently] and from the bbc’s, sorry ebc’s, total ignorance of Scotland.

      However, it all goes to show how britnats are the ones doing the most damage to their so-called united kingdom. I say we should let them continue.

      Scotland and England are truly two very different countries.

    264. galamcennalath says:

      Wise words from Lesley Riddoch on Brexit and IndyRef2 …

    265. galamcennalath says:

      Flower of Scotland says:

      “I’m beginning to think that “Unionists” are trying to push Scotland into an early referendum that they think that we will lose.”

      Could be. As Lesley Riddoch points out in the article I linked to a few minutes ago points out, calling IndyRef2 with too many unknowns gives the initiative to WM.

      We need a clear picture of what Brexit actually means, and ideally some of its pain beginning to kick in. The worse the UKOK option looks, and the greater the clarity of this, the easier it will be to convert NOs.

    266. Robert Graham says:

      Ok in my humble opinion, Forgot the divisive Europe vote it’s a distraction just now.
      I urge all to look in at the Tory propaganda festival, We have representatives of another country England discussing everyone on this islands future while we look on , while David Davis and Co want freedom to run their own Country without interference Legal system immigration etc , Irony is lost on these people every single thing they desire for their country they have happily flatly denied us and they don’t even blush not for one minute does it strike them something is seriously Wrong.

    267. galamcennalath says:

      Joannie says:

      “Martin McGuinness getting very grumpy at Teresa May”

      Audio from RTE

    268. Dan Huil says:

      First things first: an end to the debilitating union with England.

    269. McDenster says:

      Did really 1 in 3 SNP supporters vote for Brexit? I doubt it but can’t find any figures to reply to a smart alec who wants to winch Terry Madeinhell. Tarr.

    270. Joannie says:


      That link won’t work for me, but for anyone who didn’t hear it, McGuinness basically said that NI is collateral damage in a collision between the UK government and the EU, and that collision is caused by the selfish concerns of the British Tory party’s internal politics. It was a more hostile statement than I’ve heard from the Sinn Féin leadership in many years.

      And sadly, McGuinness is operating in a context where many won’t have any compunction about going for the “Irish soution”, although that probably won’t include McGuinness at this stage in his life.

    271. Luigi says:

      Macart says:

      3 October, 2016 at 8:44 am

      If Westminster ever has the audacity to repeal the Scotland Act, then 53 SNP MPs automatically means independence (the old, pre-devo argument). It’s either or. Westminster can’t have it both ways.

      I don’t think it would ever come to that (The tories may be bullies, but they are also cowards), but I’m sure the SNP has a contingency plan on a shelf somewhere, waiting to be dusted down at the first sign of constitutional nonsense from Westminster. There are clever people in the SNP that have been thinking about this for much longer than Teresa May. All options and all scenarioa have been considered. You better believe it. 🙂

    272. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 3 October, 2016 at 10:27 am:

      ” .. surely the Treaty of Union, which was opposed by the Scottish people, is null and void anyway being an agreement between two sets of unelected aristocrats?”

      Indeed, Capella, but as you may well have suspected it is not quite so simple as that. I have hinted at this before but as the subject is so complex it takes quite a lot of thought and research to dig out the implications.

      Here is my own conclusions and bear in mind I am neither a lawyer or an economist.

      The trouble with the matter is that it is complicated not just by the different and independent legal systems but also the English Kingdom’s legal system changed from the Divine Right of Kings, (where the monarch’s word was law, into a, “Constitutional Monarchy in 1688. The issues then and mainly those of differing legal sovereignty.

      So lets attempt to get to the truth of these matters.

      The events of 1603 are the first hurdle to clear. The first point is that, in 1603. the Kingdom of England was still under the, “Divine Right of Kings”, and their monarchy were sovereign.

      While Scotland had legally changed declared their sovereignty legally lay with the People of Scotland and NOT with the monarchy. The King/Queen of Scots is legally the defender of the Sovereign People’s sovereignty.

      There was thus a setback to the English monarchy’s master plan that had seen a marriage of convenience set-up in order for the English monarchy to inherit, and annex, the Kingdom of Scotland just as it had done so with Wales and Ireland, (in those cases the English Monarchy had first defeated the other monarchies in battle).

      So in 1603 there could be no take over for a male was the king of Scots and he was not sovereign. So even if the English parliament were prepared to have England become part of the king’s existing Scottish kingdom the differing laws of both kingdoms precluded it. Who then can blame Jamie Saxt for packing his royal court up and moving to England where he was sovereign from Scotland where he was not?

      So the plot now moves to 1688 and the Parliament of England’s, “Glorious Revolution”. By this time the old king had passed on the sovereignty of England to James II, who was also James VII of Scotland. However the two kingdoms remained still independent and had separate parliaments.

      So when the English Parliament deposed James II and invited King Billy & Queen Mary to become joint English Monarchs they only invited them to accept the deal if they delegated their royal Divine Right, (i.e. sovereignty), to the Parliament of the three country Kingdom of England.

      This kicked of what the English still claim as, “The Jacobite Rebellion”. Thing is that as Scotland was still an independent Kingdom the English Parliament had no legal right to either depose the King of Scots nor to impose upon them King Billy and Queen Mary of Orange. Furthermore you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own. It was in fact thus a Jacobite uprising against an English Kingdom’s take-over bid. What is more it was still being battled over at Culloden almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was forced upon Scots.

      It is not generally known that the person, William Patterson, who instigated the subscription scheme to bail out the English Parliament that led to the formation of the Bank of England was the same William Patterson who later set-up the,(disastrous for Scotland’s rich landowners), Darien Expedition. Nor that Patterson was in fact an English agent operating, along with his friend the English agent, Daniel Defoe, in Scotland while the negotiations, (blackmail, coercion and bribery), were going on for the Treaty of Union. Both these spies were employed by Robert Hartley the English Spymaster: This is a bit about Defoe from a Wiki article:-

      In despair he,(Defoe), wrote to William Paterson, the London Scot and founder of the Bank of England and part instigator of the Darien scheme, who was in the confidence of Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford and Earl Mortimer, leading minister and spymaster in the English Government. Harley accepted Defoe’s services and released him,(from jail), in 1703. He immediately published The Review, which appeared weekly, then three times a week, written mostly by himself. This was the main mouthpiece of the English Government promoting the Act of Union 1707

      So the Treaty of Union was engineered by the English to force the Scottish Parliament, (who were also the wealthy landowners), to sign the Treaty. It was so much against the wishes of the public that the Scottish parliament never sat to wind up the parliament or the public would have hanged them. In fact the Scottish Parliament was prorogued and town criers announced around the capital city. That parliament was reconvened by Winnie Ewing to set up the present Holyrood Government. It is thus legally the old Scottish parliament continued.

      However, the point is that the need for a Treaty of Union was because there was no United Kingdom after 1603 and the terms reflect the fact that it united kingdoms – not countries. That the Scottish Currency is the Pound Sterling and that Scots law and English law cannot ever become united.

      It also preserves the Scottish education system and stipulates that the Monarchy of England cannot be the head of any Scottish church.

    273. heedtracker says:

      Ruth Davidson ingratiates herself to her English tory chums today by thanking them for the lovely hall they’ve given her for ground breaking, epeoch making speech, because as Ruth explains “Usually they put Scots where nothing can be broken, or stolen for that matter.” Cheers, applause, tory braying.

      Whatever we say about Scotland, we certainly produce some world beating self loathing butt kissers and grovellers.


      Dr No! and Anas, bettertogether forever and ever.

      Scott Arthur Retweeted
      AnasSarwar ?@AnasSarwar 23h23 hours ago
      Increasingly clear that country in grip of nationalists be they Tory-Brits or Scot-Nats. We need an internationalist Labour more than ever!

    274. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, for some odd reason little or no attention seems to ahve been paid to the Times Panelbase poll of 1024 adults in Scotland, which shows a majority – 53% to 47% – in favour of Indy Ref 2. Here’s the details. In answer to the question:

      “When do you think another Scottish Independence referendum should be held?”

      32% – In the next two or three years, while the UK is negotiating to leave the EU

      21% – About two or three years from now, when the UK has finished negotiating to leave the EU

      47% – There should not be another Scottish independence referendum in the next few years

    275. yesindyref2 says:

      Another interesting question from that Panelbase poll:

      “Which of these is closest to your ideal scenario?”

      32% – An independent Scotland within the EU
      11% – An independent Scotland outside the EU
      28% – Scotland inside both the UK and the EU
      24% – Scotland inside the UK but outside the EU
      05% – Don’t know

      Of particular interest is the 28%, because, even without the 11% who want iScotland outside the EU, there’s a potential for YES of 60% (63% excluding don’t knows), if those who want to stay in the UK and the EU can be won over.

    276. Macart says:

      @ Luigi

      ‘(The tories may be bullies, but they are also cowards)’

      Heh, they’re also not stupid. They know fine well what a gift that would be. 🙂

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      And if the 11% who want Indy Scotland but out of the EU can make Indy Scotland their priority, excluding the don’t knows that’s a wonderful, glorious, splendid absolutely heart-warming, potential 75% YES, 25% NO.

      I’ll buy that for a dollar!

    278. handclapping says:

      Recipe for indy: deliver to all over 65s in Scotland

      So you’re a pensioner. You’ll have paid your funeral?
      Naw. Why?
      You’ll no get buried else if we have this Brexit.
      Aye. Right.
      You’ll remember the 70’s, no oil, no common market, 3 day week, dead unburied. Thats how it was last time we were Broutside; thats how it’ll be again if we dont separate.
      I’m still British.
      And you’ll remember your Nan having to eat with you cos with inflation at 22% the pension didn’t keep up? Independence wont be roses but its got to be better than that. And we know how bad it was, its all there in the history books. We/You need to give the youngsters a chance.

    279. Footsoldier says:

      Is there any mileage in pursuing the tactic that breaking the EU union means Scotland can break the UK union?

      We hear very little about this and the legalities constitutionally but it is why the UK union exists at all.

    280. louis.b.argyll says:

      Can Westminster really force Scottish Law to de-harmonise from EU values?

      What if that would be mostly counter-intuitive, opening up society and companies to risk of unfairness and unethical practises?

      The UK would, by definition, be acting against the interest of Scotland.

      Whether viewed as a devolved region, a nation in Union, or as is currently the case, a resisting colony being scolded and silenced..
      .. EUROPE SHOULD, AND WOULD, PROTECT SCOTLAND’S RIGHTS, should OUR TREATY with England, be DOWNGRADED by the UK Tories to help them do whatever it is that they are trying to do..

    281. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      heedtracker says at 2:56 pm

      Pretty sure that Dr No! and Anas, believe that the meaning of an “Internationalist Labour Party” is one which is prepared to bomb or invade any country on the planet. 🙂

      Truly spreading death and destruction on an international scale.

      All for the good of the UKOK mind you (their biggest export is arms isn’t it).

    282. CameronB Brodie says:

      This should be a no-brainer. Do you want to be free of the need to be free (i.e independent), or do you want to remain a subject of Westminster’s imperial domination?.

      @ HMG
      Won’t you support the people of Scotland’s Right to Develpment? It is an inalienable human right, you know.

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

    283. Dr Jim says:

      For the folk worried about not being British after a referendum, you can stop worrying, being British is not a Nationality it’s geography, we’re all Britains even the Irish folk are Britains

      So you’ll be exactly what you were before, Scottish Irish Welsh or English, if you want a British passport however that may change given your address, if that is still retained by those politicians down south who can’t make their minds up where they live or what a Nationality actually is

      Wee clue is in the word “Nation”ality whereas the word country sounds like something else

      Somebody on Twitter noticed that Theresa May keeps referring to “Our Precious” as she stares a bit goggle eyed and placed a photo of “Golumb” next to her for comparison, whilst maybe a bit mean, there is an uncanny resemblance

    284. yesindyref2 says:

      @Brian Lucey:

      It was really the executions of said rebels plus attempts towards conscription that pushed the 1918 elected MP’s to sit and declare UDI.

      That and the 2,000 including many innocents who were just imprisoned and sent to England in a kind of loosely knit concentration camp, where they learnt the craft of guerilla fighting.

    285. Joannie says:

      Sorry Dr Jim, but the Irish folk are not British and we never will be.

      Apart from Bob Geldof, yez can have him.

    286. brian lucey says:

      ‘ even the Irish folk are Britains’

      Are we now. That’s news

    287. heedtracker says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      3 October, 2016 at 3:33 pm
      heedtracker says at 2:56 pm

      Indeed. It often seems like a “get it off of me” freak out, watching red and blue tory yoon culture in action, in their Scotland region and globally. Mind Rory the tory and his hands around his region for NO 2014?

      Exact same UKOK buffoons just built themselves two £6+ bn aircraft carriers. Fair enough it was merely Crash Gordo buying SLab and UKOK votes in Fife but carriers are not for defence. Twerps like Rory the Tory are still living in that grand old imperial master baiter rule Britannia world.

    288. galamcennalath says:

      @brian lucy


      Indeed. Politics usually overrides geographically correct names.

      Canadians are Americans in the sense that they come from America. However, call an Canadian that to their face, and they will correct you. They never call themselves Americans on the basis of the continent’s name.

      All people from the island of Britain are British, geographically. However the word British does carry an awful lot of political baggage!

      The word Britain should only refer to this island. However, that pure interpretation is far from universally accepted.

      I would be very loath to ever describe myself as geographically British for fear it might be interpretated politically!

      As for Ireland, are all people from that isle, Irish? I don’t know enough about it to say when or if politics overrules that.

    289. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Did really 1 in 3 SNP supporters vote for Brexit?”

      Polls suggest around 30% did.

    290. shug says:

      We need a simple clear list of all funding and projects that will stop if we leave the eu
      And we need it now
      Farmers need to understand what they are about to lose
      Councils need to see the funding that will stop and fishermen need to see the import levies they will face sending their catch to he eu

    291. Joannie says:

      All people from the island of Ireland are Irish, although some hide behind the label “northern Irish” due to their firmly ingrained Hibernophobia and sectarianism. Sometimes they grow out of it though, even Ian Paisley described himself as an Irishman towards the end of his career, his son is now busy advising the “northern Irish” to apply for Irish passports.

      I feel bad btw, over running the comments with Irish stuff. I really only raised McGuinness’s comments because I think this government can only get away with looking semi sane if Scotland and N Ireland don’t know what’s going on with each other. If you look at how their actions are effecting both parts of the UK together, it becomes clear that the current British government couldn’t find their own arse with both hands.

    292. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dr Jim
      Steady now. Don’t go taxing the proud folk of Ireland with facts and stuff. 😉

      Brian and Joannie.
      I want to be free of the British state but if I want to be free of the British isles, I’ll have to emigrate. Simples.

    293. Joannie says:

      We don’t recognise the term British Isles, its long been considered obsolete and vaguely offensive in Ireland. The preferred term here is the Atlantic Isles, (which seems to have been coined by Prince Charles incidentally).

    294. call me dave says:

      Hammond warns of Brexit ‘rollercoaster’

      He said that it was “common sense” to invest to support growth and jobs.

      “When times change, we must change with them,” he said. “So we will no longer target a surplus at the end of this Parliament.
      Déjà vu all over again as Nicola Sturgeon suggested such an approach and went down to London to say so some time ago ….

      funny old world init! 🙁

    295. Luigi says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      3 October, 2016 at 3:02 pm

      28% – Scotland inside both the UK and the EU

      Of particular interest is the 28%,

      Indeed. How that particular group splits, when they realise they can no longer have “the best of both worlds” will be crucial. Individuals will of course go either way (they won’t be able to sit on the fence any longer), but the relative numbers that turn, either towards Hard BREXIT UK, or Indy Scotland will probably determine the outcome of IndyRef 2.

      Interesting for this group of fence-sitters: In 2014, the scary thing to do was vote YES (some did, but not enough). In 2018-19, however, the scariest thing may well be hard BREXIT and another decade of vile Tory rule. 🙂

    296. Proud Cybernat says:

      Captain’s Log…

    297. Arbroath1320 says:

      Apologies for being O/T here but …

      For anyone attending this week’s Tory love-in sorry conference there are some lovely gifts you can buy for that “someone special.” 😉

      Before clicking on this link readers are well advised NOT to:

      1) have a serious medical condition
      2) be standing up
      3) be drinking anything
      4) be eating anything
      5) have anything throwable within reach
      6) have anything to eat for a few hours after reading article

    298. Almannysbunnet says:

      On the age demographic, over 65’s pensioners etc. Going in hot and heavy with the pros and cons of independence or the unreliability of GERS doesn’t always work. If you have elderly parents or grandparents, have a chat, hey Granma have you heard what Ruth Davidson said in England yesterday “Scots aren’t usually invited to plush events for fear they might cause damage or steal items.” or John Cleese “Why do we let half-educated tenement Scots run our English press? Because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers?”
      You might convert them to yes by showing them little snippets like these that are rarely reported on the BBC. There are enough examples out their and the Scottish Unionists provide a rich source of little insults daily.Keep chipping away.
      There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

    299. Arbroath1320 says:

      Sorry folks I’m O/T …AGAIN! 😛

      I just came across this from STV and … well … I think there is only one thing to say … 😉

      How many U-turns does it take to make a Tory leader actually believable? answers on a post card to Maggie MkII, 10 Downing Street, London! 😀

    300. Mark Fletcher says:

      I hope you are all managing to catch something of the Tory Party conference. It’s like watching the living dead. The speeches seem not even to convince the bloodless beings who are mouthing the words. They are clueless and they know it.

      Order popcorn.

    301. Valerie says:

      @joannie & brian lucey

      Quite right! I don’t want to be known as British either, and I’m half Irish, on my mother’s side.

      Although I’m prouder of my Irish side, than my cringing mother, who says she is a British subject, and slags off Nicola Sturgeon for no particular reason.

      She never was a reasonable woman. I tell her a lot of people died and fought for independence, in her homeland, but she is happy to take all the freebies going here, and vote to deny youngsters their independence, to let them decide matters for their country.

      Absolutely no grasp, and I’m sure she is representative of a lot of the elderly.

      If only they had the fire of Mr Peffers, and others on here.

    302. CameronB Brodie says:

      There you go, I didn’t know that. Given time,

      I’m sure an appropriate identity will develop to better reflect contemporary social attitudes, rather than historical elitism and anti-Catholic sentiment. That’s British nationalism that is. 🙂

    303. louis.b.argyll says:

      The Conservatives fear Scottish Independence because it will allow Scotland to protect itself against EXPLOITATION.

      Labour fear Scottish Independence sure actually..Oh yes, they’re mostly Tories too.

    304. ScottieDog says:

      We often hear the phrase ‘it’s the economy stupid’ without actually remembering that the economy is a subset of the environment and resources a country has access to.
      In Scotland we are spoiled and this above all is the reason why the Westminster establishment are desperate for Scotland to remain part of the Union.

      The money side of it isn’t a problem so long as the nation has its own floating currency. The Tories still harp on about the nation running out of money which is a throwback to the gold standard and the days of fixed interest rates.

      Scotland can use it’s currency to mobilise it’s workforce and invest in it’s export base especially in the field of renewables. It can also become much more energy sovereign than most other countries. Any devaluation in the currency comes with a counter effect of boosting further the country’s export base but in any case the pendulum starts to swing back the other way after a time. You can see a very good example of this when looking at the Icelandic kroner’s performance after 2008.

      The laugh is that the neoliberal Tory and blairites still think a government should be in surplus (meaning a deficit elsewhere in the economy) Ironically Scotland is far better equipped to deliver that due to its bigger per-capita export base. Countries can only sustain a govt surplus by having a trade surplus -ie Norway, China, etc.

    305. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 3 October, 2016 at 10:36 am
      “The economy the EU the currency. All Red herrings.”

      Very, very true. As are many other of the Westminster establishment inspired things that are supposed to be bad if Scotland ends, not leaves, the Union. All bipartite unions end upon one of their only two partners leaving.

      ” … If you want to guarantee an Indy ref win then court the pensioners and elderly.” Fat lot of good that’ll do if you do so with the fixed ideas you have in your head.

      ” … The Fact is in Scotland the elderly have the numbers and influence to determine any vote.
      They are the key!”

      Oh! Yes! Mike, we do have the numbers and many of us have been lifelong independence activists. Thing is you are like a demented wee yappy Jack Russell Terrier – running around in circles while barking aimlessly up the very wrong tree.

      In the first place simply because a person is in an older age group does NOT automatically transform them into raving loony unionist.

      The far more simple logic is somewhat different to your crazy diagnosis and your even crazier prognosis. It is also NOT blindly ageist.

      Those older people who continue to vote against Scottish independence are the remnants of the actual members, members families, both blood and in-law, plus their hingersoan that have been the political force in Scotland over many, many generations of unionist governments.

      From district councillors, to Regional Councillors, to MPs, to MSPs and MEPs via Co-ops, Trade unions and card carrying unionist party members.

      Did you think they had all ran off to England, Wales or N. Ireland, Mike? Their reasons for continuing to vote for unionis parties is because the ARE the Unionist parties.

      As I boy my school boy in Leith my contemporaries were wall to wall unionists or they had no interest whatsoever in political matters. I was Class vice captain and the class captain became an Edinburgh Councillor and eventually became one of Edinburgh’s Lord Provosts.

      During my apprenticeship my contemporaries were wall to wall Unionists and, upon becoming a craftsman, I think I met just one other person in a workforce of some 10,000 that was an SNP member and perhaps aother one who voted for the SNP.

      Later I met and joined, the then quite small Cowdenbeath branch of the SNP, and we were quite thin on the ground. Remember that this area of Fife was a Labour stronghold and still was electing Communists until Willie Clarke retired on health grounds a few weeks ago.

      I later became a union steward and again my contemporary stewards were all Labour Party members. I moved to a Fife mining village and among my neighbours was the Provost of Dunfermline Council and another a Fife Regional Councillor. After some years a few nationalist began to emerge.

      That, Mike is the reality – and it is duplicated throughout Scotland. If you fondly imagine large portions of that older group you seem to imagine are worried senseless of getting their pensions docked then, Mike, think again.

      What kind of pension(s), do you imagine a fully employed tradesman who was also a Dunfermline councillor and former Provost of Dunfermline Town had? specially as he also was chair of some council committees too?

    306. brian lucey says:

      Y’all should listen to Bill Cash on Drivetime RTE now. “scotland doesnt have the capacity to be independent. Their whole potential is dependent on the UK”
      Go on, listen back ….

    307. ScottishPsyche says:

      Muriel Gray is laughing at people being upset at that old bigot John Cleese.

      If ever there was someone for whom ‘their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers’ was more apt.

      Deliciously Pythonesque indeed.

    308. CameronB Brodie says:

      brain lucey
      Re. Bill Cash. That is his subjective opinion. He is unlikely to have given any thought to the semiotic theory of space and place, among other stuff, so he is in danger of being classed along with Mr. H @ the BBC.

      With regards yourself, do you support human rights?

    309. ScottieDog says:

      @Robert Peffers
      “As you can see all banknotes are really just legal IOUs”

      Absolutely and really all money are IOUs. Think of it another way, the money that govt issues are really vouchers which the government promises to accept as payment of taxes. This is what creates demand for the currency or what drives the currency. Without paying your taxes in these vouchers you go to prison.

      The idea that tax payers money funds government is a red herring.

      Now that sounds insane, but think about it this way. When you redeem vouchers for a product – say a free pizza at your four in one for example, you get a pizza. When you return your ‘voucher’ to the treasury they cancel your outstanding tax bill. Thing is when taxes are paid, central bank reserves are removed from your bank and your bank account is debited effectively by the same amount. Thing is, in order to debit these reserves, they had to have been there in the first place!

      I know this all gets heavy but what I’m saying is that govt spending MUST precede taxes.

      As for ‘borrowing’ , just watch the first 5 mins of professor Wray’s talk on modern money..(recommend all of it!)

      It completely changes your view on a nation’s finances.

    310. heedtracker says:

      Head of EU Brexit negotiations is not popular with UKOK neo fascism at all

      Nobody should be under any illusion about Jean-Claude Juncker’s appointment of the inflexible, anti-British, arch-federalist Frenchman Michel Barnier as the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator.
      The decision was an act of petty aggression by the European Commission President, calculated to poison talks and raise needless barriers to a fair deal for Britain.
      It was also a betrayal of hundreds of millions of EU citizens, who have so much to gain from a prosperous and amicable trading partnership post-Brexit.

      BBC says he’s a French villain too.

    311. jimnarlene says:

      @Brian Lucey, you still here? I’d have thought you’d be bored by now, yawn…

    312. Rock says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell,

      “In my view, Scotland should be fully independent by 31st December 2017”

      “The chances of that happening are seventy thousand billion trillion to one against. And I’m sugar-coating that. You’ve got more chance of winning every lottery on Earth simultaneously while being struck by lightning and a meteor.”

      That might be true because it is also my view that Scotland will not become independent until the BBC has been completely destroyed.

      But don’t forget that no-one in the UK or the EU will pay any attention to Scotland while they are negotiating Brexit.

      Once they have completed negotiating Brexit and start negotiating with an independent Scotland, both the UK and the EU will drive a hard bargain against Scotland.

      You have to strike while the iron is hot.

    313. CapnAndy says:

      Just love Hammond’s roller coaster allegory. I love good roller coasters, I really should act my age, but no matter.
      The thing that I always enjoy though is the huge drop at the end. The Brexit deal will not end well for the UK.

    314. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Seems like the devious hypocritical lying britstate bully boy is going to get a taste of his/her own medicine, maybe even worse here is hoping. Oh how the demented little englanders in the daily heil etc are richly deserving of this deja-vu! Mon the EU!

    315. davidb says:

      @ Indyref2 3:02

      Of particular interest is that only 43% want independence for Scotland in or out of the EU. The referendum was 45, and current polling is 48 +. I would suggest the poll you are quoting is flawed.

      There is no certainty that the EU will survive. There are elections in France & Germany next year. Marine could win in France.

      The best scenario is for Westminster to bin the Brexit idea, and Scotland to go for ID2 in 2020/21 – while still in the EU. A hardline minority faction has taken over the government of the UK. I can only hope they are deposed by the saner wing of their party before the shit hits the fan.

    316. galamcennalath says:

      Passing thought.

      The Conservatives have only one more MP in Scotland than the SNP has in England.

      Not exactly much of a mandate!

    317. Robert Peffers says:

      @Papadox says: 3 October, 2016 at 11:10 am:

      “In 1707, when the Scottish parliament voted to dissolve itself and send representatives to the parliament in London, the Speaker of the English House of Commons exulted, “We have catch’d Scotland and will bind her fast.”

      Only partly right, Papadox. The Scottish Parliament was never dissolved. It was only prorogued.

      When Winnie Ewing opened the first session of the new Scottish Parliament she did not begin a new parliament – she reconvened the old, prorogued, Scottish Parliament. No one has yet disputed that fact.

      Here is a quote from a history webpage:-

      The treaty as a whole was finally ratified on 16th January 1707 by a majority of 110 votes to 67.
      Parliament was adjourned on 25th March and the Estates were ordered to reconvene on 22nd April. No such meeting appears to have taken place and on 28th April the Scottish Parliament was dissolved by proclamation. The Treaty and Act of Union came into effect on 1st May 1707 having swiftly passed through both Houses of Parliament in England.

      (The emphasis in the blockquote is mine).

    318. galamcennalath says:

      Derek Bateman has developed a bit of an edge to his writing. A touch of anger, again.

      Nae bloody wonder!

    319. brian lucey says:

      jimnarlene says: “you still here? I’d have thought you’d be bored by now, yawn…”
      why would I be?

      CameronB Brodie says: “With regards yourself, do you support human rights?”

      Why would I not

      Folks, its very interesting and all that to look in. But I sense a closed, hostile, angry forum. Thats in general. I can see why and all that but tbh you’r not exactly welcoming to those who come in from the outside, with a different, informed, perspective. So, I shall, I think, say Aideu. As I noted, I wish you well but suspect your going get the mother of all shellacking.

      PS : Ireland is actually quite nice, fairly well run, not gigantically corrupt, very very democratic and close. Feel free to move while you can 🙂

    320. galamcennalath says:

      Apt cartoon from Mr Cairns.

      Shame the other foot isn’t wedged firmly up his BritNat arse!

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      Yeah, and this poll was done mid-September, but people are still wanting to be part of the UK and the EU. So some of them were still hoping for a second EU Ref perhaps, but some may have been hoping Sturgeon could pull a miracle and keep Scotland in the EU and the UK. ‘Twould be interesting to know.

      @Brian Lucey
      Just admit it, you regularly call yourself British and are proud to be called British.

      Just like my wife from Co Cork.

      Oh, she doesn’t.

      Ouch, get off me, leave me alone, I didn’t mean it. Ow, my nose. Cant ser thhhet keeeebrd

    322. Ken500 says:

      £ going down = imports, prices going up. Imports are £Billions more than exports. The balance of payments, deficit and the debt. The Tories are dangerous.

      The Tories are out to destroy the world economy so they can tax evade. Just like Thatcher deregulated and destroyed the banking sector. Over 3 million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. Thatcher secretly and illegally took the massive Oil revenues and squandered it. Along with Blair and Brown destroying the world economy. They should be in jail. Multimillionaires who can’t get enough. The vulnerable are being sanctioned and starved. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. The Tories committed electoral fraud. What is being done about it?

      The Tories trend to destroy the Scottish Oil & Gas industry with high taxes when the price had fallen. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs. Fracked Fas is being imported which is not taxed. Scottish produced Oil & Gas is taxed at 40%, since Jan 2016.

      Norway manages to be Independent with a £500Billion Oil Fund. The UK Treasury illegal and secretly took Scotland’s resources.

    323. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Why do we let half-educated tenement Scots run our English press? Because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers?”

      The old sausage might be right you know, or at least expressing post-colonial sentiments, as it is certain members of the dominated society who most crave and strive for the habitus of their imperial masters (see Andrew Neil). Perhaps he’s done his homework on symbolic violence. I wouldn’t ask Duncan H though, as he’s not a fan of Bourdieu, though he may have that in hand. 😉

    324. Sassenach says:

      brian lucey

      For a ‘ University professor’ to not know the difference between ” your and you’re ” is particularly worrying (and I don’t care what subject you are supposed to be teaching)!!!

    325. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      ScottieDog says at 5:34 pm

      “As you can see all banknotes are really just legal IOUs”

      Exactly and an England/rUK without the resources of an iScotland and as a result of the Bank of England’s Quantitative Easing program will be like the Weimar Republic crippled by hyperinflation.

      See links to photo of your typical German off to buy a loaf.

      If you think I’m exaggerating:

      And the Neo Facist far right are already on the rise in England before this happens.

      This is why they will fight until red in tooth and claw to keep Scotland.

    326. Ken500 says:

      Do not believe the Polls. They are always wrong. They are used to manipulate the result. Change people’s vote. Purdah rules are broken.

      The larger the Deficit. The higher the repayments. Scotland has to make loan repayments on the rest of the UK borrowing and spending. The money is not borrowed or spent in Scotland. The rest of the UK raises less in taxes. Scotland has to pay loan repayments on the rest of the UK debt. Scotland can’t borrow. There is £10Billion of ‘unidentified’ expenditure in the Scottish Gers accounts. What’s that about?

    327. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker says: 3 October, 2016 at 11:21 am

      ” … So potentially £1,920,000 over a 24 hour period if this is average or £700,800,000 per annum.”

      However you are missing another factor – “Grid connection charges”. The arse before elbow way the Westminster Wonders work it does not comply with normal market rules by which the supplier of a scarce commodity is entitled to charge premium rates or otherwise sell to the highest bidder.

      The Westminster Wonders instigated charging variable rates depending upon the generating companies distance from London. What we have is that the far north of Scotland’s generating companies, (the most prolific sources of renewable power generation), pay the highest price to add electric power to the National Grid

      They charge them a high rate for every Kilowatt they add to the National Grid. However the robbery does not stop there for they actually subsidise those generators nearer to London. BTW: Those higher grid connection charges are responsible for Longannet Power Station being uneconomic to run.

    328. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

      If there is, which one?

    329. heedtracker says:

      dandy dons 1903 says:
      3 October, 2016 at 5:49 pm
      Seems like the devious hypocritical lying britstate bully boy is going to get a taste of his/her own medicine, maybe even worse here is hoping.

      They’re in charge for gawds sake. Just enough proudScot buts decided to keep that shower of neofascist nutters in charge of Scotland.

      My Slovene girlfriend demonstrates that grand tory imperial master baiter thing in the Heil today

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 8h
      Me in today’s Scottish Daily Mail: put down the megaphone, Nicola, & work with us to get the best Brexit deal

      Why the fcuk are they still in charge of our country:-(

    330. Dan Huil says:

      It’s all going wonderfully shit-shaped for the so-called united kingdom. I think we deserve a few days of laughter at all the britnats running around like witless weevils.

    331. sandycraig says:

      Lots of great posts these last couple of days. I’ve just finished reading The Scottish World by Billy Kay. Great read as well. In the last chapter ” A! Fredome is a Noble Thing ” he quotes a letter by novelist John Steinbeck written to Jackie Kennedy in 1964.

      ” You talked of Scotland as a lost cause and that is not true. Scotland is an unwon cause.”

      And that is precisely my view. Much water to flow under the brig but we will win Independence, and with the SNP it will be on our terms.

    332. Ken500 says:

      Irish Gov is totally corrupt. Scandal after scandals. Land deals, tax evasion etc. Politicians go to jail along with bankers. The Orange Lodge were in power in NI supported by the Unionists at Wrstminster. An apartheid state. They still shoot up housing estates in arguments about UJ flag waving.

      Partitioned by Lloyd George 1916, when the majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule. Charles Stuart Parnell, a landowner led the mass Home Rule Movement.

    333. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers:

      This also is important: “and on 28th April the Scottish Parliament was dissolved by proclamation

      The “proclamation” was a Royal proclamation, and carried out by Queensberry or his minions. But I can’t see how Queen Anne would have had the authority to dissolve that parliament – until it was actually dissolved – as in theory it could have repealed the Act of Union with England if and when it reconvened, as long as that was before the 1st May, when the Treaty and Act came into force.

    334. Artyhetty says:

      Don’t normally respond to folks who visit wings to talk down Scotland and take the piss, but wahts his name lucey can just fck off!

    335. CameronB Brodie says:

      brian lucey
      Firstly, my bad. My excuse is I’ve been conditioned to think of myself as British, largely by the education system and including the BBC, who are now officially tasked with working against Scots gaining access to their “Right to Development” and associated human rights. Must be a sign of the times (end-of-era times).

      You also have a point about the need for tolerance and exclusivity in any forum or public space*, though I think you perhaps need to do some research on EU facts and stuff.

      * Apart from obvious troll (see Angrymanie)

    336. yesindyref2 says:

      @brian lucey
      So you get a bit of hostility, a bit of contradiction, a bit of correction, and you run away.

      Nope. You’d never make an Indy campaigner, we get that dozens of times a day, which we fend off one-handed while scratching our anatomy with the other, eating our tea, and finding time for a laugh and a tune.

      Have a good sulk, put a smile on your face, and come back fighting fit. I dare you.

    337. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      CameronB Brodie says at 6:13 pm

      “Why do we let half-educated tenement Scots run our English press? Because their craving for social status makes them obedient retainers?”

      Come on CameronB,

      Don’t you support the human rights of these “half-educated tenement Scots to crave social status and become obedient retainers?” 🙂

    338. Joannie says:

      “Scratching our anatomy”, ah you Scots with your romantic Caledonian customs.

    339. CameronB Brodie says:

      That should read “tolerance and inclusivity”, obvs. Oops. 🙂

    340. Orri says:

      If the person claiming to be Brian Lucey is the genuine article then that’s unfortunate. If not then it’s someone making a fraudulent claim which is a criminal offence.

      The Brian M. Lacey he claims to be can be found here.

      Whilst it might be tempting to email him using the contact details given if we all did that we might be spamming an innocent. However note the use of the middle initial. Also note the only corroboration is information given on that page.

    341. Tam Jardine says:

      OT does anyone have experience of dealing with IPSO? I feel like I have entered a parallel universe with this series of absurd straw man arguments as they try and throw out my complaint on the Siobhan McFadyen piece.

      First they asked if I disputed that Police Scotland set up a task force (I did not) and now I have been asked if I dispute that there were 30 odd arrests after the violence on the 19th September.

      I am preparing to be told that the single isolated night of violence by loyalists football thugs means that Siobhan McFadyen’s “widespread outbreaks of violence” before and after the referendum is “accurate” as defined by the editors code.

    342. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Robert Peffers says at 6:18 pm

      “Grid connection charges”

      “….charging variable rates depending upon the generating companies distance from London”

      I’ve seen a map online showing the rates per k/Wh with massive generation costs in the North East (Caithness etc.) working down to basically massive rebates in the South East of England.

      Can’t find the link to the map now.

      Also thanks for the constitutional stuff, learning a lot from you.

    343. jimnarlene says:

      @Brian Lucey,

      No need to go in the huff, I actually liked some of your posts, interesting stuff from a different perspective; but don’t try and talk pish to a well informed readership, we don’t like being patronised, as I’m sure you don’t.

      Scotland will run itself just as good as your own nation, no matter what the nae sayers say.

    344. Thepnr says:

      @Prof Lucey

      “Folks, its very interesting and all that to look in. But I sense a closed, hostile, angry forum. Thats in general. I can see why and all that but tbh you’r not exactly welcoming to those who come in from the outside, with a different, informed, perspective.”

      Been reading your contributions all day and you almost had me peeing myself laughing.

      So, you have a “different, informed perspective” yet didn’t even know the requirements for Scotland to join the EU?

      “new entrants must accept the Euro” Absolute bollocks as has been well pointed out to you here many times.

      “If the SNP REALLY wants independence, then call an election, stand on a “we will declare UDI” platform and see.”

      More absolute bollocks, the SNP REALLY do want Independence and there will be a second referendum. UDI is a non starter, we’ll do this the Scottish way. Win by a democratic vote.

      “Theres an apparent unwillingness to accept that independence may well come at a cost”

      Says who? Just you, I’d give my all to be Independent, this is not just about “cost”.

      Theres should be There’s by the way Prof.

      “An independent scotland outside the EU will have to come in.”

      We are already in the EU and have been citizens of the EU for more than 40 years, we intend to remian as citizens as 62% said they would do. We will remain in the EU, mark my words.

      This was your very first post on Wings and your last if you are to be believed states “Folks, its very interesting and all that to look in. But I sense a closed, hostile, angry forum.

      Hahaha You are deluded Prof, you are also ignorant of Scottish constitutional affairs yet feel free to express an opinion. No one here has been angry or hostile towards you, in fact the opposite is true.

      many have been welcoming such as indyref2 or valerie among others. Yes a few have disagreed with your view. But to call the “hostile” is ludicrous.

      Your a know all that knows fuck all. Now that’s not hostile just the facts.

    345. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. I looked at the page and twitter, as anyone could have. For an ex-banker he’s surprisingly ignorant of how the euro and ERM works, for an economics bod he’s ignorant of how Ireland has gained and pained with the EU, for an Irish person he’s surprisingly ignorant of any but the top easy to find history of the Easter Rising and aftermath, and on top of that, his sneers about Scotland in the EU are unlike most reactions we’ve seen not just from Ireland, but all over the EU.

      However, his putdown, patronising and I know best style is all too familiar.

      He could be the genuine article of course 🙂

    346. bjsalba says:


      Think of it like Scandinavian.

      Three countries (Norway Sweden Denmark) making up the region of Scandinavia.

    347. galamcennalath says:

      From ABC

      May rejected the idea that parts of the U.K. might veto the deal. The message was plainly aimed at Scotland, which voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and has been agitating for legislative consent because of extensive trade with the EU. May said no. “I will never allow divisive nationalists to undermine the precious union between the four nations of our United Kingdom,” May said. The Scots, who only narrowly rejected independence from the U.K. in 2014, didn’t like that one bit. Scottish leader Nicola Sturgeon tweeted: “PM going out of her way to say Scotland’s voice and interests don’t matter. Strange approach from someone who wants to keep U.K. together.”

      My bold. At least some Americas knows how we feel!

    348. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker
      That is a truly profound question. A question of liberty no less and one that has been asked since the Enlightenment.

      Some might take a utilitarian view but see that John Stewart Mills, he was a servant of colonial imperialism so he was. If you want to understand how utilitarianism doesn’t work across national borders, take a took at how Scotland’s population has flat-lined since 1707. Also look at where the ‘nation’s’ wealth resides. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not Scotland.

      I’m pretty relaxed about most things myself, apart from stuff like slavery and the like. So I’m thrilled at the education we are getting as to how the English Establishment view their Scots colony. That has to count for a lot a reconsidered opinions among soft No voters, if only Auntie weren’t so bias towards British/English nationalism.

      See that Andrew Neil. I’m sure there’s a sociological PhD in there. 🙂

    349. Thepnr says:

      Brian Lucey on this thread claims to have a website or blog that’s why his name is blue rather than black as we all have the opyion of entering our website.

      Yet when you click his name you are taken here:

      Instead of here:

      Why is that Brian? Just a wee mistake eh! Feck off.

    350. yesindyref2 says:

      Substitute the word “path” for the word “log”.

    351. Joannie says:

      I just looked at the real Brian Lucey’s blog entries for September 2014, and he seems pretty skeptical of the Better Together campaign and positive about Scottish independence.

      I’m not sure the Brian Lucey posting here was the same person, he doesn’t sound the same unless he’s changed his opinion drastically since then.

    352. ben madigan says:

      here’s the Mirror’s view and analysis of may’s speech.
      Art 50 coukld be triggered as early as january 2017.
      If Westminster is going for a hard brexit, the negotiations wil be short, sharp, to the point and more importantly Brief.
      We can’t count on the window being open for 2 years.

    353. Tam Jardine says:

      Visiting dignitaries, eh! I sat down to take a look at Wings and in the space of a day the visit is over and it seems we have been left to scratch ourselves and create effigies or whatever.

      Acht well- I’ll go back to daubing primitive images of Nicola Sturgeon on my cave wall.

    354. ben madigan says:

      here’s the Mirror’s view and analysis of may’s speech.
      Art 50 could be triggered as early as january 2017.
      If Westminster is going for a hard brexit, the negotiations wil be short, sharp, to the point and more importantly Brief.
      We can’t count on the window being open for 2 years.

    355. Proud Cybernat says:

      A question. Does the EU have to agree to Britain’s terms of EU exit? Or can Britain simply say at the first meeting, “You know what – we don’t actually have anything we want to discuss with you lot, so we’re off now. Ta ta.” And off Britain goes, Brexited well before 2 years.

      Can Britain do that? Or can the EU force Britain to negotiate and take Britain into protracted negotiations (to buy the SG more time to get IndyRef#2 going)?


    356. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      CameronB Brodie says at 7:16 pm

      Sorry Cameron, couldn’t resist. 🙂

      As for “See that Andrew Neil. I’m sure there’s a sociological PhD in there”

      There is probably a very long term Research Fellowship in studying the Brillo, Andra Marr and Dimblebum but it’ll probably not be worth doing now the EU funding is knackered.

    357. Inbhir Anainn says:

      Can’t say I was surprised too read this passage whilst reading about Conflict of Laws. For the purpose of the English conflict of laws, every country in the world which is not part of England and Wales is a foreign country and its foreign law. This means that not only totally foreign independent countries such as France or Russia, or independent Commonwealth countries , such as India or New Zealand, are foreign countries but also British Colonies such as the Falkland Islands. Moreover, the other parts of the United Kingdom – Scotland and Northern Ireland – are foreign countries for present purposes, as are the other British Islands, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.

    358. ScottishPsyche says:

      Why would an Professor of Economics at Trinity college in Dublin be on this forum inciting UDI?

      If this is the real Prof Lucey this is quite a worrying statement from an academic, unless of course he has a vested interest in such a scenario? Imagine the equivalent from a Scottish university suggesting a similar illegal move to foreign political movement.

      I think we should be very careful of this person real or otherwise.

    359. William Purves says:

      The rest of U.K. would not stop trading with Scotland as most of their gas and oil comes from us.

    360. Liz g says:

      Don’t believe everything that Yesindyref2 says
      Some of us jist aren’t that itchy.

    361. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker
      I felt it best to reply in the spiwit the question was asked in. 😉

    362. mike cassidy says:

      If the Brian Lucey posting here is the same as the one with the blog –

      then a read at this column

      Then his comment on it

      certainly illuminates his perception of the reality of Scotland’s position.

    363. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 7.40
      X Stick’s was asking pretty much the same thing.
      I think it was last night on the other thread!

      Made me think that it’s no impossible if their priority is to keep hold of Scotland,they would go for a quick Brexit.
      Can’t think of anything to stop them.
      Everything they would loose after a hard Brexit, they will loose anyway whether they took time over it or not.
      But speed might give them a chance to ensnare Scotland.

      Very Worring.

      Can anyone here think of or know of a reason why they can’t just go ahead like Proud Cybernat described?

    364. Dr Jim says:

      Ah didnae name the British Isles Britain dinnae blame me, ahm fae Glesga, hiv a look at thae Romans wae thur Caledonias an thur Hibernias an thur Hadrians wa, ye ken thon wa that aw thae English fowk think is the border but it’s really in Inglind
      an no a square fit o it’s in whatever ye ca whaur we live

    365. Glamaig says:

      Joannie says:
      3 October, 2016 at 7:26 pm
      I just looked at the real Brian Lucey’s blog entries for September 2014, and he seems pretty skeptical of the Better Together campaign and positive about Scottish independence.

      this one is good

    366. Thepnr says:

      I know most people are looking at 2018/19 for a second referendum well i think 2018 at the latest. My honest opinion I’m going for next year another September ref in 2017.

      My reasoning is simple, May has already made clear yesterday that there will be no special opt out for any part of the UK. The UK as a whole will be leaving no matter others views.

      May has alraedy made clear that there will be no acceptance of free movement of people and the EU state that means no single market.

      Negotiations are wasted. May has already made the position clear and Nicola Sturgeon cannot accept any of these terms.

      Get real folks we as members of the UK are out of the EU all that remains is to cross the t’s and dot the i’s.

      There will be no negotiating between Holyrood and Westminster, just platitudes and a pretence of listening.

      As soon as article 50 is started the SG may announce another date for a referendum and it will be a short campaign. We could be on Indy2 as soon as autumn next year.

      I don’t care when it is. Right now is as good a chance of winning as 2019 might be. Who can say? There is likely little difference between now and then.

    367. Black Joan says:

      Great comedy moments on the Radio 4 PM programme this evening as Patrick McLoughlin, Chairman of the Tory Party, failed, several times, to answer the question: “How many hours did the Cabinet spend discussing the timing of Article 50?”

      I think the squirming tells us exactly what the answer is. (around 12 minutes in)

    368. mike cassidy says:

      The blogging Brian Lucey has interesting views.

      He draws attention to this article

      and then comments here

      Eire brexit, anyone?

    369. Joannie says:

      @ Glamaig, yes I noticed that. I remember way back when the Rev posted something similar from the 1770s when the 13 colonies were looking for independence. They have recycled the same arguments from America to Ireland to Scotland, every time there’s a push for the natives to have any control over their own affairs.

      America became a superpower, Ireland became the 7th richest country on the planet according to the OECD, and even after the banking crash is still (just) in the top 20. Scotland will do okay too, not superpower okay, but definitely Ireland level of okay if not better.

    370. Robert Louis says:

      Proud cybernat at 740pm

      You make an interesting point, which had recently occurred to me. If it is a hard brexit, then what exactly is their to prevent Westminster turning up one day in Brussels, invoking article 50, and saying bye. No negotiations, no trade deals, with the intention of adopting WTO rules from day one.

      Would it not be in Westminster’s interests to undertake the process in that way? It would kill any notion of Scotland having a say stone dead.

      If that were to be done by Westminster, to thwart the democratic choice of Scotland, would the Scot Gov not in those very extreme circumstances have some kind of mandate (based upon their election mandate and the EU referendum result) to introduce a kind of temporary UDI, in the EU holding pattern, with a referendum or election to be held, under say, EU supervision within four weeks or so?

      Before anybody gets all uppity, I’m not a fan of UDI by itself, but were Westminster to effectively cheat the democratic voice of Scotland in this way, would such a temporary move, under EU supervision, be justified??

      So, to be clear, UDI as a temporary move, under those extreme circumstances, with a move to confirmatory referendum or elections within a short time frame afterwards, purely to prevent Scotland being taken out of the EU at short notice by London.

    371. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Robert Louis

      “If it is a hard brexit, then what exactly is their to prevent Westminster turning up one day in Brussels, invoking article 50, and saying bye. No negotiations, no trade deals, with the intention of adopting WTO rules from day one.”

      What about the NI/Eire border? Surely they would need to come to some arrangement there that would require negotiations (possibly even lengthy ones)?

    372. Robert Louis says:

      Valerie at 835pm,

      Well, wow. Just imagine the English NHS suddenly having to cover the healthcare costs of UK folk retired or living in Spain – something which is currently covered by EU wide reciprocal healthcare agreements.

      I can’t help recalling all those moronic expats in Spain in the run up to the EU brexit referendum, were telling anybody who would listen that they wanted Brexit to happen. The kind of people who wanted brexit in order to ‘keep immigrants out of the UK’, all the while seemingly oblivious to the fact that THEY themselves are immigrants in Spain.

      With each passing day, Brexit just looks dafter and dafter.

    373. Proud Cybernat says:

      …not forgetting the Gibraltar situation too. Could they wrap those up quickly?

    374. Robert Louis says:

      Proud Cybernat,

      Yes, Ireland could in some ways prove to be an even bigger problem than Scotland.

    375. Cherry says:

      I found this article from the Economist, 2010,it begins with “the British are different, not all mainly English 😉 good read.

    376. Valerie says:

      @Robert Louis

      It’s just getting cranked up! As the piece says, some communities are 50% British retirees, you know how they herd together. Saves having to learn any furrin language.

      The UK govt has treated EU nationals like dirt. Not one bit of supportive language, when they could have emulated Scotland. But then, they have to look tough on educated, skilled, tax paying furriners, cos the people voted for that.

      This is going to be long, slow, painful torture.

      I hope in a few months, there are demos all over Scotland, screaming for a referendum, as they watch this horror unfold.

    377. Glamaig says:

      Robert Louis says:

      With each passing day, Brexit just looks dafter and dafter.

      I was stunned yesterday by May’s speech. I went to my bed quite depressed, just in total disbelief at what they are doing. It seems an epic act of self-harm. Surely the people running a state the size of the UK can’t be that stupid? What the fcuk are they up to?

    378. Phronesis says:

      Hierarchy is panicking as the modern day equivalent of the Chartist movement, the irresponsible, unrespectable, rabble of the Scottish Independence movement –a swinish tenement dwelling multitude- is amassing at the elite’s city gates .

      The pesky middling sorts and lower orders challenging the authority of the UKOK parliament and its adherence to assumed inequality, deference and subordination and its self-perpetuating feudal order.

      According to our current political class we are not going to follow a Nordic model of economic and social emancipation. The generous, considerate long- suffering notables prefer the age old conflicts with the residuum- landlords vs tenants, peers vs people, aristorcracy vs democracy, idle vs industrious, capital vs labour , few vs the many. And what of those ungrateful rebellious ‘nationalists’ tearing the social fabric of this precious union apart.

      Actually has anyone informed the Tories that hierarchy is no longer the axis that everything revolves round. The French, American and Industrial revolutions have actually happened, India has left the Empire and Scotland has been transformed by its second Enlightenment.

      Our wee country has emerged as an outward looking internationalist country, economically viable with a politically engaged and educated electorate and voted as an autonomous country to remain in the EU. It also has aspirations for the younger generation beyond fruit picking and eating cake.

    379. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Another great article. One wee reservation though that was flagged by Prof Michael Dougan during the EUref: the exit talks triggered by invoking Art.50 are only about disengagement (eg. how to treat resident nationals on each side) and not about trade as such.

      Talks about trade may possibly only begin after Brexit, and in any case will likely take years to conclude. The trade situation may therefore be far from clear as we approach impending Doom.

      Unless, that is, disMay remains true to her conference posturing and goes for a hard Brexit and d*mn the consequences. (WTO rules and all that.)

      And here’s another thing. If she does go for a hard Brexit and at the same time wants to forestall an indyref2, she may well accelerate the exit talks and try to leave early.

      This is no time for faint hearts. We really haven’t much choice. There has to be an indyref2 before Brexit or we’ll never do it.

    380. Tam Jardine says:

      Liz g

      I think there would definitely be something Putin would approve of (and maybe even Sun Tzu) in such a manoeuvre which would certainly wrong foot just about everyone. I am not sure Westminster has the tactical nous to attempt something so bold in the face of the markets.

      They are still in the convince-electorate-this-is-going-to-be-a-big-success game. Having said that, if the economy is going to tank anyway you would hardly expect the rUK to just bend over and take it as Stu puts it.

      If I were advising Theresa May right now I would be thinking of ways of completely outflanking both enemies (the EU and the Scots) at the same time. The only way I can imagine (and I haven’t given it much thought) is proposing a new global trade community that has unfettered free movement of goods, services and capital but allows a state to set its own immigration regime. I would make it easy to join and have no political dimension whatsoever.

      I would start an organisation to replace the EU- an EU for the more right wing anti immigration times we seem to live in. They don’t have to make it work- they just have to introduce the idea and get the Beeb to inflate it every day so the electorate buy into it.

      Then they have something to blanket bomb the Scots with (the great economic plan) and Marine and co of the right wing Eurosceptics will have a great alternative to push in their elections. Hell- the idea has that British arrogance about it- from defeat grow the green shoots of victory… Britain, Great Britain forging the way and becoming a world leader again.

      I repeat- it can be a pure Vow like pile of pish but as we saw during the indyref such things do not matter- they are weapons to be picked up, used and discarded once their working life is over.

      It is crucial they come up with something otherwise the oily, gassy, foody, drinky shooting estate in the north is offski. For all they have screwed up royally we underestimate the wounded beast at our peril. I cannot see them just letting Scotland go and receding into failure and recrimination.

    381. bjsalba says:

      @Robert Louis
      3 October, 2016 at 8:34 pm

      If it is a hard brexit, then what exactly is their to prevent Westminster turning up one day in Brussels, invoking article 50, and saying bye.

      John Redwood has already suggested something along these lines.

    382. Valerie says:

      Feel the love.

      Another FB acquaintance taking issue with me reposting an Angus Roberston comment on Sterling and May ignoring Scotland.

      ‘The gov’t aren’t just ignoring Scotland, you know, they are ignoring London, where many more people live’

      This from a woman I’ve never actually met, just via forums, and dog rescue. They simply can’t scroll past, and let you post what you want, without having an ignorant, petulant dig.

      It’s like everyone south of the wall, thinks this is a region, and we need to shut up.

    383. Legerwood says:

      Valerie @ 8.35 and Robert Louis @ 8.50

      The issue of cost to the NHS of immigrants and/or health tourist came up during the EU Referendum.

      UK Expats living abroad and in receipt of a UK pension if they get health care in the country they are living in then that country bills the UK for the cost.

      Channel 4 news did an item on this during the referendum and there is also a comprehensive FactCheck analysis of this on their web site here:

      With Brexit Expats may have to pay for their own healthcare, and tourists, unless the UK negotiated some reciprocal deal with the EU. What are the odds?

    384. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis 8.34
      It’s an interesting idea,but it could not be a UDI.
      Mainly because we would be saying that we are Universally Declaring Independence but just for a little while,that doesn’t make any sense.

      But also because it could be argued that the term it’s self carries with it the ending of the Treaty of the Union.

      Remember Forsythe’s been working on a new one already.
      Should we (struggling to even type this) then go on to lose Indy Ref 2 we could be forced into accepting the new Treaty.
      And you can be sure something in it will make it a forever Treaty.

      We IMHO would need to find a way to just suspend the Treaty.

      Also I would be interested to know what you or anyone else thinks about making the Queen of the Scot’s do her job and having Scotland’s First Minister formally request she protect our Soverenty,should Westminster try to huckule us out of Europe?
      It would certainly make waves and Reece Moggs head might explode.

    385. Orri says:

      If someone is really planning on replacing the original Treaty of Union the question has to be who is going to negotiate it. By definition Scotland must be independently represented. Unless they somehow have a mad scheme involving bypassing the elected representatives of Scotland in either Westminster or Holyrood and put it to Scotland’s electorate there’s no fucking way any such “Treaty” will be anything other than a sham as the SNP won’t agree to it.

    386. Liz g says:

      Tam Jardine @ 9.18
      Thing is Tam,it really all depends on how much they need to keep Scotland.
      As to how bold they will be.
      These people believe in the market’s righting themselves,and are able to give reassurances to the key players privately.

      If what we all suspect about Scotland’s wealth,and her value to the British state is true.
      Then Scotland is not just valuable to them but essential.
      While we only suspect what Scotland’s value is they actually know.
      That’s what makes me worry about far they will go to keep us.

    387. mike cassidy says:

      Never thought I would type this on Wings –

      but here’s a link to John Redwood’s Diary (mea culpa, mea culpa) –

      which will provide those worried about the ‘sneaky’ possibilities inherent in a quick, hard Brexit a good insight into the thinking behind the idea.

      And I did notice that it was UK all the way!

    388. Dr Jim says:

      It’s understood by Bloomberg that Theresa May has been warned that no special arrangements will be accommodated to Britains financial arrangements ie the city of Londons banking industry and as a consequence the city is to make preparations to move either to the EU or Scotland should it become Independant and in the EU

      A statement to that effect is on the FMs Twitter don’t know how genuine and can’t do linky things (not the FM saying it)

    389. Liz g says:

      Orri @ 9.56
      There most definitely is a new Treaty being written up.
      I suspect it is being kept for when the circumstances are right to have it signed.
      While you are right the SNP would never agree to it,what if Labour or the Tories between them get power in Holyrood?
      Although they expected the SNP to fall apart and The Yes campaign to go away after a No vote,the fact that it didn’t happen I think has only delayed thing’s.
      Pre the Brexit vote all they had to do was wait till the SNP were not in power.
      But the Treaty is there and they will use any excuse to implement it.

    390. Big Jock says:

      Indi ref should be announced next March or after article 50 invoked. Then I think we need it before the end of 2017. This 2019 business is crazy talk. 2 years of England falling out with every Eu nation will destroy Scotland. We need action not posturing. Get on with it Nicola put Scotland’s citizens at the heart of the campaign. We voted stay overwhelmingly so we need to be heard not left hanging on England’s self destruction.

      And yes it is win or bust this time. For Scotland and the SNP. Should we fail this time then we are not a nation or worthy of that term.

    391. Jenny MacLean says:

      We have a problem Houston!

      Latest strategy by the tories on Scotland is referring to Scotland as a problem.

      Nice to know we (the whole country) are so highly thought of by Mrs May, et al.

    392. galamcennalath says:

      @Dr Jim

      This one?

      “British financial-services companies will get no special favors in Brexit negotiations from Prime Minister Theresa May, who wants to change the relationship between the government and the City of London.”

      Wow, if true. That very much surprises me. I thought The City would be a priority for Tories.

    393. Armaghk says:

      Teresa May with a hard Brexit, may go for a hard border in Ireland as a warning to the Scots as to what would happen if they choose independence.

    394. mike cassidy says:

      That Bloomberg article archived.

      Interestingly, there is no hint of this “City, GTF” attitude in the Redwood Diary info I linked to at 9.57.

    395. scotspine says:

      @Liz G

      I for one would never accept a new treaty of union imposed.

    396. mike cassidy says:

      Right, I’m away to listen to the extended “News Quiz” on 4Extra at 11.00.

      Frankie Boyle is on, and hopefully he will be as good as he was in June.

    397. Stoker says:

      ayeMail is Going Postal

      They’re looking to collect just under 12K, folks. They’re a very important arm of our fighting operations and they need our help to expand and get other projects up and running. We need to stay ahead in this game. Lets try and burst the net on this one.

      Please donate if you can because every penny matters:–4#/

      Sleep well, troops!

    398. Tam Jardine says:

      Some great comments tonight and real food for thought. Obviously those interested in politics are all over this at the moment.

      I took a wee look at Kez’s twitter account and during the day of what was a pretty important day in our country’s future and the day after… plenty comments on a half marathon but absolutely hee haw on the single market and the tories decision to seemingly go for the full bhuna on brexit.

      Kezia will be aware of the situation I am sure… why can Nicola Sturgeon immediately react to Theresa May’s pronouncements on Marr and at conference and Kezia has to wait. Is she awaiting a cue from Corbyn? Or from the blairite wing?

      We have had all last week and the weekend before all this stuff about Scottish Labour being autonomous and at the first test we hear nothing.

      Corbyn is as bad- he’s been invisible on all of this. The tories are getting a free reign to do what they do best- transforming the country from bad to worse and enriching those at the top in the process.

      I just dinnae get it. But maybe Kez has simply given up- she was all square behind staying in the EU and access to the ESM and now indy is the only way tumbleweed.

      I’ve never voted labour in my puff but surely the folk that do deserve something from their elected officials.

      It occurred to me – maybe it was just a Sunday off thing? I’m sure there will be a record column coming up and we can get the party line

    399. Petra says:

      @ Thepnr says at 6:53 pm …. @ Prof Lucey – many have been welcoming such as indyref2 or valerie among others. Yes a few have disagreed with your view. But to call the “hostile” is ludicrous. Your a know all that knows fuck all. Now that’s not hostile just the facts.”

      Well that just about sums it up. People on here have been hostile towards Brian Lucey. No doubt about that. Thousands of people visit this site, read but don’t post. What kind of message are we sending to them? If we can’t be civil to someone we can’t agree with, on any level or by degree (or even a newbie we agree with), what hope do we have in ‘converting’ anyone to this cause at all?


      @ brian lucey says at 8:46 am …. (United Ireland) ‘’But, as the prospect of a hard customs and perhaps travel border on the Island of Ireland comes more and more likely, those views from the North may well change.’’

      Thanks for replying to my post Brian and for including the link (lots of data that I’ll look through later). One thing that I did notice though was that 16 / 17 year olds weren’t included in the survey. I wonder if their attitude towards a United Ireland would differ greatly to their elders, as do our kids towards Independence (over 70% for).

      It’ll be interesting to see if the 33% figure (similar to what we started out with), in relation to those who want a United Ireland, will rise as the repercussions of Brexit become clearer. A subsequent tax hike may be seen to be a price worth paying? The Irish situation may in fact prove to be as great a thorn in the side of Westminster as the Scottish (in combination too much for them to effectively deal with) and then of course there’s Gibraltar. A substantial amount of their trading is done with Europe. Ah, interesting times ahead indeed.

      Anyway Brian I hope you do continue to post on here because it’s great (and enlightening) to get access to the views of people who live outwith Scotland: Now and again people pop in from the US, Canada, Australia, Germany, Scandanavia and Wales etc. It would also be extremely helpful to keep abreast of what’s actually going on in Ireland during this difficult time.

      Whatever the case best wishes to you, and your country, for the future Brian.

    400. Valerie says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      You have got me wondering now about that strategy of a fast exit.

      Some thoughts. They are actively involved in recruiting trade negotiators, although equally that could indicate a fast departure, because they are prohibited from trade deals until out of EU.

      Lots of commentators now parroting no single market, so what is the point of trying to negotiate with the bloc? Better perhaps to use the old colonial tactic of divide and conquer the 27?

      A fast exit means a minimum of 4% tariffs for trade under the WTO terms, but I thought I read higher figures? Are UK businesses ok with that? What is immediate impact on our buying basics like imported fruit?

      Reading that Redwood diary posted at 9.57 is pretty scary and hard-core regarding any relationships.

      I have no doubt the Tories will wrong foot everyone. They don’t do respect. That strategy will include us.

      However, I’m confident SNP are compiling a number of scenarios, ready to go.

    401. Orri says:

      The trouble with any attempt by the unionist parties to have Holyrood as the sole signatory for Scotland is that it would require Holyrood be internationaly recognised as the default representative body of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      Otherwise there would have to be a drastic collapse in SNP support or a pan unionist electoral pact for the SNP not to have a majority of Scottish MPs. So any temporary transfer of the power to decide on constitutional matters to Holyrood would be against the wishes of those who represent Scotland at Westminster.

      Until the distinction between English and Scottish law is abolished the legality of such a clumsy manoeuvre might be challenged.

    402. Valerie says:

      @Tam Jardine

      Spot on! I had forgotten about Corbyn, but wtf is he??? He should be screaming himself hoarse about economic ruin, and the blatant hypocrisy of Tories blabbing about our EU friends, but we are going to jettison them.

      Watching Evan Davis, he is trying to be fair, but I think he is panicking at the level of stupidly of the Tories.

    403. mike cassidy says:

      Tam Jardine 11.28

      The autonomous dug’s thoughts here

      So it looks like she wants to portray SLAB as more unionist than the Tories.

      Oh, that Tory celebration of the union will last all of 30 minutes at 10.30 in the morning.

      That close to breakfast, hopefully Mundell wont be eating his beard on TV.

    404. Cadogan Enright says:

      Mike Cassidy / Brian Lucey 8.31

      I was in college with a guy called Brian Lucey in the late 70’s and early 80’s. And I think this is the same person

      I remember him as a smart guy, but on the right wing of Irish politics and a member or supporter of Fine Gael. This would be the Irish equivalent of the Tories, wealthy landholders etc., who were the most supportive of Britain in Ireland

      Nothing wrong with that, I was on the left and and we disagreed over issues like the 81 hunger strike, the economy and losing too much sovereignty to the EU, maintaining fiscal independence and the like.

      However I would be pleasantly surprised if his political and blogging efforts with reference to Scotland were sincerely aimed at helping Scotland take its place in the community of independent Nations rather than undermining it.

      I would prefer him to be on-side than cleverly chipping away at it in clever and subtle ways.

      Which is it Brian? I’d love to be on the same side as you after all these years on one issue at least

      I suspect that Brexit is forcing even Fine Gaelers to reassess their opposition to ever deeper links between North and South

    405. dakk says:

      Enlightening comments on this thread tonight.

      Also,not sure how broadly disseminated will be the thoughts of John Cleese.

      The mere fact he is retweeting the derisory jibe at Scots may be indicative of the emboldened Oxbridge Pythonesque nature of where the UK is heading.

      The lunatics may well be making a bid to take over what was already the UKOK asylum.

    406. heedtracker says:

      I would prefer him to be on-side than cleverly chipping away at it in clever and subtle ways.

      Is it not more that the Republic of Ireland’s not at all keen on reunification and for some time to come? Loyalist NI isn’t exactly a prize.

    407. mike cassidy says:

      Some late night laughs.

    408. Liz g says:

      Orri @ 11.35
      I can see what you are saying,but the group headed by Forsythe was set up to write a new Treaty of Union shortly after Indy Ref 1.
      They didn’t expect Scottish politics to pan out the way they have.
      They certainly didn’t expect to have all those SNP MP’s at Westminster.
      They (the MPs ) would need to agree, and Holyrood would need to agree,but once they did I can’t see any legal challenge to the new Treaty as the representatives of the will of the Scottish People would have taken part.
      So in 2014 all they had to do was make sure there’s no more referendums until Labour got back power in Scotland, and then they would sell it to us and the politicians would sign.
      Now it didn’t quite work out like that,but nevertheless I do believe that if they ever saw a chance to put it in place they would.

      And what I was getting at earlier was if we caused the original Treaty to be set aside, and then voted to keep the Union Westminster could, in theory, say well here is the Union on offer now, and you are obliged to sign it because you’re electorate have instructed you to preserve a political Union.

    409. Hamish100 says:

      Listening to two face lying by Davidson on Scotland Tonight. Apparently the First Minister didn’t “pledge” in the SNP manifesto an indy ref2 by saying the FM said it was only if there was a change of opinion in Scotland. I take the Scottish GE win doesn’t count nor the wipeout for tories and labour in 2015. She ignores the “material change” in the snp manifesto. Subtle change but a lie never the less.
      62% of Scotland doesn’t count it appears. She is dangerous two faces.She ignores in the referendum the tories etc said voting for No would ensure EU membership.
      In this instance the people has spoken and she dismisses them by doing her London master bidding. The lightweight interviewer breaks into a wee jokey laughing session to round of the 5 mins–isn’t her one liners so funny!!! not– a poor women’s susan calman is davidson– she aint funny either. STV lightweight.

    410. Weechid says:

      Could a hard Brexit show how difficult it is to leave a union and still thrive thereby make leaving the UK look even more daunting to those who doubt it possible?

    411. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cadogan Enright
      First I thought he was genuine having looked at blog / twitter, then I realised anyone could have done the same. Now I’d say it’s 50-50.

      But apart from a couple of spelling and grammar police postings, the only hostility before he flounced off calling the forum closed and hostile was expressed in reply to his point b – UDI, and that’s a pretty obvious one. The EU (all its member states) wouldn’t recognise UDI, not for a lot of years, and has a history of it. It also respects member states constitutions, and it did with Ireland over Lisbon etc, even if it did put pressure on for another referendum. He would know that, yet still recommends UDI. No way, Jose.

      One other contribution was to say we’d be forced to join the Euro implying that would happen immediately “that’ll take care of the currency”. Well, no, first we’d need a stable currency to even try to get in. So that’s either ignorant or deceitful.

      Then lastly he says “it’s going to be hard, you’re going to get fsked, and it’ll cost you a packet”. Cobblers. Nobody thinks it’s going to be easy, there’s a cost of membership but we’re already paying illustratively a cost of membership, we’re average EU GDP, we’d get more CAP and likely more use of regional funding which the UK often ignores, we probably wouldn’t get the UK rebate of under £5 billion – our share £400 million, but the most extra it would cost us for membership is around £200 million nett of CAP and extra fund usage, hardly a figure to swoon over and go weak at the knees. The cut in our block grant this year is almost certain to be way way more than that. Plus the EU budgets are set until 2022 I think, so the chances are we’d get in for the same pro rata as the UK, with the reappraisal in the run up to that.

      Apart from that, no inside knowledge, no expertise, and not even really a different view from an Irish perspective.

      So you have to ask yourself, what was the purpose of his “visit”?

    412. Petra says:

      @ Mike says at 10:36 am …. ‘’If you want to guarantee an Indy ref win then court the pensioners and elderly. Find a way to show them their needs will be paramount, their pensions not only safe but improved, their sense of personal security intact and Indyref 2 will be a walk over. The age demographic in Scotland is the key to any referendum on any issue. The Fact is in Scotland the elderly have the numbers and influence to determine any vote. They are the key!’’

      I totally agree with what you have to say Mike in relation to the elderly, as all polling results indicated that it was this group that were by far predominately No voters. However I reckon it’s more complex than that and not ‘a walkover’.

      I’ve read now and again, on here, that the Yes vote will rise as the elderly pass away (apologies for mentioning). This doesn’t take into account that year on year MANY elderly individuals relocate from rUK to Scotland. A never-ending supply in fact. Statistics show that one in five individuals in England are now aged over 65: around 10 million. How many of them will head north? How many more have already relocated to Scotland since 2013 / 14?

      So yes our elderly Scots born will die off but what percentage of them actually voted No at all? There doesn’t seem to be any research findings to this effect. Maybe someone on here has relevant data?

      What we do know is that prior to Indyref1 477,000 individuals (of voting age) born in England had relocated to Scotland. 72.1% voted No. Of around 100,000 combined Welsh, Northern Irish and foreigners who voted; 57.1% voted No.

      The data therefore highlights that people who were born outside of Scotland were crucial to the result, losing us the Referendum, as 52.1% of Scots born voters voted Yes. The latter figure of course includes elderly Scots born voters.

      It’s then worth considering the total number of rUK / foreign relocators able to vote in comparison to the current Scottish population figure of 5,347,600. More so the fact that the current eligible electorate figure in Scotland is less of course at 4,099,532.

      In light of the Indyref1 figures one wonders who voted (by age / identity) in Scotland to Leave / Remain in the EU?

      When all is said and done I don’t know if targeting pensioners will help at all, as I think that a high percentage are entrenched in their ‘Britishness’. I reckon we should just keep on targeting whoever, whenever we can and hope the message will get across to elderly Scots born (and others of course).

      I also think that we’ll have to rely on the fact that Brexit will (may) influence the ‘migrant’ figure to swing in our favour and that some of the rUK relocators will prefer to stay in an Independent Scotland to remain in the EU.

      To my mind, Nicola has to PROVE, produce facts, that Scotland has a strong economic case for Independence and that pensions will be protected. And of course settle the currency issue.

      More than anything we have to hope that May makes a hash of Brexit. And, eh, ban all holiday home owners from voting.


      Some research data:

      Individuals over the age of fifty voted No (all % over 50). The pro-Union majority increases the older the voter.

      ‘NO vote by SOCIAL STATUS: The highest group of No voters by social status criteria were home owners – 64.6%. This of course could be broken down again by age and identity (no data to that effect).

      The highest group of Yes voters were Social Renters 61.9%.

      Working class 53.6% and bottom earners 56.4% voted yes.

      Top earners 46.8% and middle earners 44.5% voted yes.

      ‘NO’ vote by IDENTITY: The ‘Scottish not British’ 11.4%; ‘More British than Scottish’ 39.6%; ‘Equally Scottish and British’ 81.4%; ‘More British than Scottish’ 87.6% and ‘British not Scottish’ 90%.

      ‘NO’ vote by RELIGION: Roman Catholic 44%; None 45.9%; Other Religion 51.3%; Church of Scotland 59.1% and Church of England 81.6%.

      The following relates to a study carried out on 14 / 17 year olds pre – Indyref1. It includes data relating to Scottish Independence, the EU and information sources. If correct (valid) a real eye-opener.


      @ Cadogan Enright says at 12:13 am …. ”I was in college with a guy called Brian Lucey in the late 70’s and early 80’s. And I think this is the same person.”

      Maybe his father or an uncle Cadogan or no relation at all of course?

    413. Liz g says:

      Weechid @ 1.04
      They are two completely different kinds of union’s.
      No doubt there’s some who will put the issues together like that,but it will be our job to reassure them it will be much simpler for us to leave the UK.
      Mainly because our law’s,courts,health education ect are thankfully separate.
      Our law’s are tied up with the EU just as much as England’s are.
      But the law’s between us and England while they run parallel are already separate.
      That’s about the simplest way I can put it but obviously it’s a bit more complicated but I’d bore you to death.

      By the way haven’t seen you’re name before are you new?

    414. Onwards says:

      Glamaig says:
      3 October, 2016 at 9:08 pm

      With each passing day, Brexit just looks dafter and dafter.

      I was stunned yesterday by May’s speech. I went to my bed quite depressed, just in total disbelief at what they are doing. It seems an epic act of self-harm. Surely the people running a state the size of the UK can’t be that stupid? What the fcuk are they up to?

      Here’s what I think is going on..
      The Tory government realises it isn’t going to be able to negotiate a ‘soft Brexit’ where it gets to cherry-pick. The EU won’t budge on their basic principles.

      So unless they back down, they have to accept that a hard Brexit is the only option, and pretend that is what they want all along.

      It’s partly psychological. An attempt to save face, and give the illusion they are actually calling the shots instead of having little other option. Can’t have Johnny Foreigner saying “we told you so.”

    415. yesindyref2 says:

      Following the EU vote, I was quite optimistic for the UK itself (excluding Scotland). It’s been going a time, it could surely thrive, with the will of the UK people.

      But like many I’ve been getting more and more concerned with the total shambles that is the UK Government on this, and with the Conservative conference and May’s speech, plus that from Hammond who I like (from his defence days), it’s gettng wrose by the minute. So I checked on EU trade agreements, which the UK would have to try to duplicate, and taking into account that some – many – countries might not want to upset the EU with whtaver trade agreement it put in place with the UK, check out some of the countries on the EU website trade page:

      Tell you one thing; if we don’t go for and get Indy and stay in the EU, I’m getting my Irish passport and we’re f’ing off.

    416. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 says 3:10 am …. ”…. So I checked on EU trade agreements, which the UK would have to try to duplicate, and taking into account that some – many – countries might not want to upset the EU with whtaver trade agreement it put in place with the UK, check out some of the countries on the EU website trade page:

      Tell you one thing; if we don’t go for and get Indy and stay in the EU, I’m getting my Irish passport and we’re f’ing off.”

      WOW yesindyref2. Now if you had produced that a few months ago, and passed it around, I doubt we’d be Brexiting at all.

      I’ll be using that now, for sure, as part of my ‘converting’ package.

    417. Liz g says:

      Well spotted Yesindyref2 amazing resource.

      Petra did you see the map that’s the best bit.

      And while I’m no in a position to leave I have told my kids to get as qualified as they can and get out,if we don’t get it this time.

    418. Petra says:

      Hi Liz sorry I missed your post as I was just heading off to bed. I saw the map! I also noticed TTIP and NHS exempt? Having to go out soon so will check that out later.

    419. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Legerwood says at 9:30 pm Valerie @ 8.35 and Robert Louis @ 8.50
      3 October, 2016 at 9:30 pm

      Most of these Expats living in Spain couldn’t afford to buy property back in the UK especially the SE of England due to the inflated prices.

      This is double trouble for which ever country Scotland (free health care) or England they choose to return to.

      Additional pressure on social housing stock which in places is non existent as well as pressure on the NHS.

      They would also clamour that as UK Citizens they should jump ‘immigrants’ in the housing queue.

    420. Weechid says:

      Hi Liz G. No I’ve been around a while and as far as Independence goes have wanted that since childhood – particularly since a schoolteacher tried to tell me that my capital city was London. Oh no it isn’t.

      You and I and many sane, rational, thinking people realise that the two unions are different but my concern is about those who were worried last time that it would all be too much trouble and upset. How do we convince them that any upheaval is a damn sight better that what faces us under perpetual Tory rule outside the safety of the EU.

      If I seem pessimistic It’s ’cause I live in D&G – very close to the edge of Mundell’s seat – sigh.

    421. Allan says:

      As much as it pains me to say, we need a main stream media source on our side (DR or Sun or similar). otherwise we’ll never get the elderly vote. Too many people still rely on traditional media and if the last indyref is anything to go by project fear will be in full swing again on all fronts.

    422. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 3 October, 2016 at 6:26 pm:

      “This also is important: “and on 28th April the Scottish Parliament was dissolved by proclamation”. The “proclamation” was a Royal proclamation, and carried out by Queensberry or his minions.”

      You miss the legal point, yesindyref2. Legally the people of Scotland had been accepted internationally as legally sovereign since 1320 and the Declaration of Arbroath in 1706/7 and they still are today.

      Under English law the people of the three countries of The Kingdom of England were legally subjects of the sovereign monarch of England in 1706/7 and thus the English Parliament’s, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688, did not legally change that. Furthermore, it still has not legally done so.

      All it did was delegate the royal, “Divine Right of Kings”, powers to the Parliament of England at Westminster and, remember, the two kingdoms were still independent in 1688. Only the three countries of the Kingdom of England were made a, “Constitutional Monarchy”. Thus in 1706/7 any Royal proclamation had to be strictly on an legally independent basis.

      So in Scotland that Proclamation made around the streets of Edinburgh was totally illegal because the English Parliament’s deposing King James II of England in what was still an independent English Kingdom in 1688 did not apply in the still independent Kingdom of Scotland.

      Legally Queen Anne was NOT the monarch of Scots. Even if she had been a Royal Proclamation of a Monarch in Scotland was of no consequence because the monarchy of Scotland is not legally sovereign.

      It really isn’t rocket Science, indyref2. Here it is stated in an easy way. The Treaty of Union was an agreement to form a joint monarchy between two still independent Kingdoms.

      So how could a royal proclamation by a monarch of the Kingdom of England be legal in the still independent Kingdom of Scotland 40 years before the Battle of Culloden that was all about suppressing the cause of the never deposed monarchy of Scotland?

      This all hinges upon the importation of King Billy & Queen Mary as the Monarchy in a still independent Kingdom of England. A monarchy change in the independent Kingdom of Scotland was, by tradition, normally hereditary but the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 affirmed that the people, not the monarchy, were sovereign but it did more than that, It asserted that the sovereign people of Scotland had the legal right, or perhaps even the legal duty, to sack any monarch they deemed to NOT be protecting their legal sovereignty. So Queen Anne’s Royal Proclamation meant nothing. It could not legally be applied in the still independent Kingdom of Scotland as legally Queen Anne was only the monarch in the Kingdom of England.

      Remember that the two kingdoms were still fighting the Jacobite Uprising at Culloden almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed.

      The English propaganda, even today, has always claimed that the Jacobite uprising was a rebellion by the Scots. How, though, could the Scots be rebelling against an English monarchy that was not their own?

      When, exactly, did the sovereign people of Scotland depose their monarchy and install King Billy and Queen Mary as the monarchy of Scotland?

      That, “Glorious Revolution”, installed King Billy & Queen Mary as the monarchy of the independent Kingdom of England which was then still an independent Parliament.

      They English parliament thus could not legally deposed the Monarch of the Kingdom of Scotland until after the two Kingdoms were united by the Treaty of Union that was not then in force?

    423. orri says:

      The legality of the dissolution of the Scottish parliament by royal proclamation should bring in to focus the already tenuous case that the Prime Minister can use the Royal Prerogative to simply dictate and override the wishes of either Westminster or Holyrood. Certainly it’d be foolish to attempt to do so as there’s a 21 day period between stating an intent an it going ahead during which any PM might simply be deposed in Westminster.

    424. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers & Orri
      A wee question about the legality of the current Monarch?
      While I am sure we agree that history would show this lot were imposed on Scotland illegally.
      But given that civil law as I understand it is based on what a reasonable man can assume,isnt there an argument for….
      Since between then an now so many have been accepted and Crowned especially from the great and the good of civic Scotland,and the current lot have reigned during a time of universal suffrage.
      A reasonable man could assume that the masinations of the late 1600 have been accepted and therefore the current Monarch can be found to be legitimate?
      A sort of by habit and repute type argument!

      Just as an after thought is there any record of any of them apart from the current one Actually being Crowned here?

    425. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yup, that’s the thing. At the time of that dissolution by Royal proclamation, 3 days before the active date of the Treaty and Act of Union with England, Queen Anne had no authority to do it. Perhaps that’s why most versions just say “Proclamation” not “Royal proclamation”. Control history and the language used, you control the people.

      It begs the question though, why do it just 3 days early? The “official” reason is that the loose end of the Scottish Parliament had to be cleared up before the 1st May and the Treaty and Act took effect. Just to make it tidy!

      But I wonder if there was some talk of the Parliament reconvening to repeal the Act, and tear up the Treaty, and England moved to stop that by effectively making it “illegal” (the nobles etc could then have been detained) or non-existent, to discourage those involved.

      There’s a lot missing in Scottish history I think. I wonder if Gold had anything to do with it.

    426. Angus MacAlister says:

      I have to agree with a number of posts in that it won’t take the EU long to kick the UK out as no free movement means no single market and it looks like the Tories want that anyway, so the second referendum should be in the autumn of 2017 once we have agreed a roadmap with the EU to retain membership.

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