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Wings Over Scotland

Call the experts

Posted on January 26, 2017 by

Because when you really want people with their finger on the pulse of Scottish politics to analyse the implications of the Supreme Court decision on Brexit, where else would you go but to Channel 5’s The Wright Stuff, to hear from um, former rugby league star and haircut pioneer Martin Offiah?

OFFIAH: My first story is from the Telegraph, page 6. Nicola Sturgeon is not very happy. [sniggers] And she’s stepped up the rhetoric for, obviously, she wants independence. But I think, no one is really listening to Scotland. Really, are they?

And Nicola Sturgeon has promised to give Holyrood a vote on Article 50 even though it’s going to be symbolic. I think their whole involvement in this fiasco has really been pretty symbolic.

WRIGHT: It was a national UK referendum, it was non-binding….

OFFIAH: 60% of Scottish voters wanted to Remain but we’re still leaving, and once we’re out they’ll have to.. if they want to get independence, I’m led to believe they’ll have to reapply, themselves. If things all go wrong in Scotland, then obviously we might have to build our own wall for Scottish people who…

WRIGHT: Or repair the one we’ve already got. [smirks]

OFFIAH: But for Scotland, it won’t be legal unless we say it’s legal. So everything is going to be symbolic for Scotland. They’re not really in a strong position.

WRIGHT: I think it’s been very badly handled from a Scottish perspective. All the way through.

You feeling that love and partnership again, readers?

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849 to “Call the experts”

  1. Fred says:

    @ Robert Kerr, thanks for the Bushcraft, made my morning kid!

  2. Dorothy Devine says:

    Dave McEwan Hill, treated myself by buying the Liberty Tree- I must make time to read it.

  3. Dr Jim says:

    The voting franchise is set so no amount of girning over it will make it change and anyway there are idiots from every country, being an Arse isn’t exclusive to one of them

    The only thing I ever thought about the voting was “manners”
    I lived in Spain for a long time and was entitled to vote but I didn’t because I felt it wasn’t my country to interfere with and I wasn’t going to spend my whole life there so to involve myself with their constitutional arrangements was a bit cheeky

    But that was my choice, others feel differently, but the fact is if you’re allowed the vote you’re also allowed not to but can’t also complain if others do or don’t

    Also if we lived in England think of who you would vote for given the opportunity, if you lived in the posh bit you’d vote against it, if you lived in a poor part, well that’s difficult coz England does’nt have anybody else to vote for

    So we should be considering ourselves a wee bit lucky up here in Bonnie Scotland that the choice we have is a pretty good one
    There’s SNP or there’s well,…. crap
    Down south they’ve got crap and worse crap

    Makes you wonder how folk come up with their reasons to vote NO eh

  4. ScottieDog says:

    “Finally, indyref2 will need to have someone better at the helm of Yes Scotland and a MUCH better website.”

    I think we need to spend money on a good economist who actually understands how sovereign currencies and govt finances actually work. Most of them don’t.
    It wouldn’t come cheap but would be massively worth it..

    This lady would be my first choice..

  5. Luigi at 7.53 am

    It’s because the SNP is run by a determined,articulate young woman. Who does she think she is etc etc etc

  6. Liz g says:

    OT….Just been looking at a proposal from someone on the
    Highlands for Independence Facebook page.
    They are basically saying that they have sent an email to a MEP suggesting that Alex Salmond be invited on to the EU Brexit side if the negotiation team,as a special adviser.

    Personally I think this is a brilliant idear… Westminster have made it clear that the Scot’s are not required to be at the table,even Fluffy won’t get in the room.

    Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts??

  7. Ken500 says:

    All people registered in Scotland legible to vote in Indy Referendum. With a two – three year residential qualification. Holiday Home owners should not be illegible to vote. Second home. They are registered elsewhere to vote. Electoral rules. If a council is giving 2nd home voters – voting registration. They are breaking the Law. It should be publicised and reported to the council. It is electoral fraud. Punishable by prison.

    The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. Overspent and and put in false accounts. So did UKIP The Police are supposed to be investigating. The Tories have a majority of 12. Plus the NI Unionist votes, All this mess would nut have happened if the Torues had not committed electoral fraud. Punishable with prison. They should be put in jail. The Tory/Unionist hypocrites should be put in jail They are a danger to the economy and health.

  8. scotspine says:

    Liz, cracking proposal regards Mr Salmond. It would create ructions at Westminster.

    Sadly, I doubt the EU would or could accomodate that.

  9. Stu Mac says:


    There are one or two posters repeatedly coming out with this “blood and soil” (regardless of them not liking that appellation) thing – makes one wonder if we are seeing an attempt to get a few folk here to agree (partially or otherwise) with them and create a thread that can be used to make out we’re all blood and soil nutters here.

    Whether it is intentional or not that is what could happen so we need to stamp on it whenever it rears its ugly head. Well done to those above who have done so including your good self.

  10. Graf Midgehunter says:

    @ Stuckdoonhame

    Your opinion is as valid and welcome as any other poster on WOS.

    I and most Wossers don’t give a damm where you come from, it’s where we’re going to that’s more important.

    Keep contributing and don’t take no crap from some of the more “strenuous” folk who forget to take off their blinkers when talking to friends.

  11. Ken500 says:

    @ Guardian?

    ‘ The UK Gov (England?) is sponsoring a £300,000 drive (too little – too late) to recruit teachers from Czech Rep, Germany, Poland and America in an attempt to plug a physics and maths shortage by September. A bid specification document invites recruitment companies to apply for contracts to start next month’.

    Professor John Howson – ‘I am frankly very surprised, that in the middle of the debate on Article 50, that the Gov is busy going off to these European countries to try and attract teachers.’

  12. Breeks says:

    I agree 100% with better website for both YES2 and the SNP, but this “next time” bit throws me. These sites should already be up an running, making “next time” closer.

    A good website doesn’t have to be expensive. And an expensive website isn’t automatically good.

    We are about to enter a no holds barred propaganda war with the UK establishment, and these sites are going to have to function as de facto Independentist TV.

    We ought to investigate apps like iplayer, and see whether we can support Indyplayer… to archive important clips of media and debunk lies and manipulated information.

    These things take time to design, beta test and launch, but that needs to be happening now.

    I think Theresa May has in mind to get the UK Brexited as quickly as possible, and we could be deluding ourselves that 2 years from now, the UK still remains in Europe while we resolve Indyref2.

    I believe petulance, arrogance, and frustration will bring a hard Brexit upon us in less than two years. If we require 18 months for an Indy campaign, Theresa May will have Brexit done and dusted to screw the whole deal.

  13. Liz g says:

    Scotsppine @ 9.38
    Aye that’s why I put it on here….. I was wondering what would stop the EU Actually doing it???
    I would love to see the UK media try and not report anything he said… While it was all over the European press.
    That would really show how the news is manipulated!!

  14. robertknight says:

    The ONLY over 16s who should be preventing from voting in Indy Ref 2 are MoD personnel parachuted in (not literally in most cases) to Scotland for a limited time period and who in the vast majority of cases don’t intend to remain here any longer than their individual posting dictates.

    Why should a Welsh squaddie at Leuchars, who is due to go to Catterick two months after polling day and who has no intention of returning to Scotland except to come up to Murrayfield every other year, have a right to vote, when someone who has spent their entire life in Scotland but who has moved temporarily to Manchester to study at University, and who despite having every intention of returning to Scotland at the conclusion of their studies does not?

    Serving MoD personnel born in Scotland, irrespective of location, plus those born here but in full-time higher education outwith Scotland, should be included in the franchise and be able to apply for a postal vote. Only those ‘transient’ serving members of the Armed Forces, (Including EU citizens on NATO exchanges), resident in Scotland for no reason other than through accident of posting, should be excluded.

    Every other individual aged 16 and over who is resident in Scotland, including those in the prison population, (plus those Scots who are members of the Armed Forces/full-time students serving/studying elsewhere), should be included. Place of birth doesn’t and shouldn’t come into it – and that’s not just because my English wife votes SNP/Yes.

  15. Fred says:

    The people of Scotland are all emigrants it’s just that most of us have forgotten the details!

  16. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    better website for both YES2 and the SNP

    Definitely. They need to be the main sources of news from the Yes side.

    At the moment, an SNP press release on Twitter seems to take hours to get onto the SNP website and by then it’s no longer news!

    They used to have an RSS feed, like everyone else, but it died a few years ago.

  17. Big Jock d says:

    Slabour map on radio Shortbread am. The UK has voted to leave the EU, so we should just make the best of it and stop the grievance.

    Every constituency in Scotland voted remain, he wants us to roll over and do what we are telt. Is there no end to their stupidity and duplicity. The current Slabour msps mrust the thickest since devolution started. What are they elected for.

  18. Dr Jim says:

    Theresa May:

    Brittle, Huffy, Lightweight, and will likely go a wee bit power drunk
    We wont have to do much except point at her!

  19. Simply talking from a position of undiluted ignorance.

  20. heedtracker says:

    Fred says:
    28 January, 2017 at 9:59 am
    The people of Scotland are all emigrants it’s just that most of us have forgotten the details!

    Bollox. Stop telling people who and what they are, but again, nice trollsmanship Fred.

  21. galamcennalath says:

    Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s chief negotiator settling terms of the UK’s withdrawal, says …… “What we are looking for is a fair agreement in which you can never have outside the European Union a better status than as member of the European Union,”

  22. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 News Quiz today, or what passes for English satire these days, oh how they all laugh at silly Scottishy names of SNP MP’s. Its hilarious, laughing at Scottishy names although one twit cant remember any SNP MP, except Mary Black, so funny.

    At the very least, Scots are now slipping into the BBC’s category of, lets laugh at Johnny Foriegner, his silly accent and his silly name. Now that’s growth.

    Cant mind what bit of this bizarre smugathon of BBC liggers their lets all laugh at Scottishy names and accents is, its up to you, its actually not worth it but you are paying to be mocked, so have a listen to them mock because, its a braw moonlicht nicht the nicht Angus.

  23. Nana says:

    There goes that ‘special’ relationship

  24. Ken500 says:

    It would be totally undemocratic and impossible to organise a IndyRef of only folk born in Scotland having right to vote, The bureaucracy would be impossible to organise. How can they be identified. Impossible. Open to legal challenge. There could not be a Referendum on that basis. The outcome could be challenge under human rights and equality Law.

    The EU Ref was not organised Democratically. That is why it is illegal and there are so many problems. The Tories illegally manipulated the voting rules under the Electoral rules.

  25. Legerwood says:

    Graeme says:
    28 January, 2017 at 8:33 am

    “”It’s all about winning and Indyref2 is far too important to care how we win and if BT don’t care how they win then why the hell should we

    Please don’t misunderstand me I’m with you and most other posters on here about being inclusive I’m just not sure we can afford the luxury””

    It is most definitely not about winning at any cost or by using any means available.

    Winning Independence is worth more than that. It is ALL about winning well because by doing so we will be a more united country and more at peace with ourselves and thus more likely to be successful.

    BT did not win well and thus the result was not definitive.

    The EU referendum was not win well but on the basis of outright lies. The result is discord and division and a final outcome that will damage everyone.

    Is that what you want for an independent Scotland? Is that how people think we should proceed? By drawing the circle to exclude people out of the process? What sort of start would that be for an independent Scotland?

    If that is the way people think the referendum should be fought, by lying and making false goes, then you will convert few to the cause and more than likely to turn previous supporters against it.

    We have to be better than that otherwise independence won by any means won’t be worth the candle.

  26. Capella says:

    Scottish pound now on the cards. The National article:

    AN in-depth plan is being drawn up for an independent Scotland to have its own currency after a recognition the case for continuing to use sterling was a flaw in the Yes argument in 2014.

    Detailed work on a new monetary policy is being carried out by specialist experts within a commission established by Nicola Sturgeon to look at economic issues ahead of the prospect of a second referendum.

    Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett, a former consultant to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, is in charge of the policy work which will be presented later this year to the SNP leader.

  27. Ken500 says:

    Many Scottish migrants are US citizens. Approx 10% of the US electorate are of Scottish descent. The US Presidential vote is extremely close run. Trump depends on some of their vote. Offend Scotland offend them. The US Green vote put Trump in power. Trump has £Billion worth of investments in Scotland. Governance by Scottish (planning) Laws. Offend Scotland and lose out.

  28. Juan P says:

    Fuck this born and bred pure Scots only allowed to vote shite.

    We’re all mongrels. If you’re genuinely pure bred then you’re most likely retarded….which probably explains advocating a right to vote based on the supposed purity of your blood.

  29. Snode1965 says:

    @ Scottiedog…
    On a Scottish currency.
    The SNP have a team of experts, led by Professor Andrew Hughes Hallet, looking at the currency issue.
    Their remit is a much more comprehensive study into the set up of not only a Scottish currency, but the infrastructure required to implement it.
    Source today’s National for more details.

  30. Snode1965 says:

    @ Nana…
    Thanks for the Trump video twitter link, that was a genuine laugh out loud. 🙂

  31. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Some discussion on the thread about English voters. I met an old work colleague yesterday who was a diehard no voter in 2014 and even went to the extent of buying a house in Berwick on Tweed as a fallback in case of Indy.

    Complete turn around to a Scottish Indy supporter now because of brexit.

    So I think there will be a lot of folk in similar positions and will be a lot easier to convert to the Indy cause than Scottish yoon supporters.

  32. heedtracker says:



    Mike Dailly @mikedailly
    Delighted to have joined the @theSNP

    In reply to Nicola Sturgeon

    Mike Dailly ?@mikedailly 11h11 hours ago

    Time for Scotland to seize her destiny @NicolaSturgeon @theSNP

    Mike Dailly Retweeted
    Nicola Sturgeon ?@NicolaSturgeon 13h13 hours ago

    Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Mike Dailly
    Welcome @mikedailly – glad to have you on board with @theSNP.Nicola Sturgeon added,

    Times they are a changing!

    Dylan’s never accepted a UK accolade, but he has from the Scots.

  33. Scott says:

    I know its O/T but why no mention of this on BBC Scotland ready enough to report on it when it came out.

    EXCLUSIVE: Dundee MP Chris Law cleared of financial wrongdoing after four-month police probe

  34. David says:

    We already have Scotlandshire, North Britain, etc. but I’m loving that new terminology where we are now only a symbolic part of the UK project 🙂 Symbolic Scotland coming to your couch from the lid of every fucking shortbread tin.

  35. Ken500 says:

    In 2003 Trump spoke out about how stupid was the illegal Iraqi invasion, and the politicians. He knew the WMD was nonsense. They were making it up. Trump spoke out about the corrupt crooked bankers in 2008. The Wall Street crash. He lost £Millions. He said the fraudulent bankers should be put in jail. It is on the Internet. UTube. Look it up. Or get a book from the Library if there is one. People can join some Universities Library for a fee. £27 a year? A great, expansive, source of information.

    It was the UK/US corrupt administration who were, illegally, torturing people. He was against that. He did not say he supported torture. He was discussing what to do. The methods. If it worked? He was discussing what to do about ISIS beheading people/Christians. What action should be taken? He indicated it would be decide in consultation with the Defence Secretary approved by Congress and Head of the CIA, approved by Congress.

    The CIA Head said, ‘in his experience’, more information could be gathered by 2 Cans of juice and a packet of cigarettes. The secretary of Defence was not in favour because torture does not work and is illegal. The order Trump introduced was for consultation with the Secretary of a Defence (CIA). It doesn’t indicate if it would be accepted.

    It was Blair/Brown/Clinton and Bush (Obama) who were complicit in (secret) torture and illegal behaviour. Obama did not keep his promise to stop illegal intervention and Congress did not help to shut illegal detention centres. This was promised. The US voters were betrayed. The Westminster Unionis were illegally bombing in Syria. Trump has stopped the illegal US activities have stopped. The UK illegal activity in Syria stopped as soon as Trump was elected. The Westminster Unionists are so hypocritical. Trident.

    The MSM/Press are misquoting and manipulating what Trump has said in the past as well. They are useless, manipulating, lazy and worse. Making many situations worse.

  36. heedtracker says:

    Dr No! is getting into politics, British politics,

    Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks Jan 11
    My campaign for world domination, sorry election to Scottish Labour’s SEC only has 20 long days to go.

    Dr No!’s catchphrase, displaying that grand old SLab self awareness of a door knob.

    Dr Scott Arthur – Standing up for Labour

    Just Labour though, no one else, more UKOK, its what they Scottish types really need.

  37. Nana says:

    @Snode1965 It’s the sneering tone and curl of the lip when he asks Theresa if that was her choice of question. lol


    I saw a duplicate tweet by Ian Smart, don’t recall who re tweeted it.

  38. Soutron says:

    @Scottiedog Mine too. I think Bill Mitchell would be excited to get involved if he was approached. I know he wasn’t too enthused last time because of the currency stance. Who could resist the prospect of building a new country around MMT?!

  39. Fran says:


    Speaking to my son last night on the phone, he informed me that his RE teacher was warning against an IScotland and how bad it would be. I said to him if she brings it up again to ask for proof from independent sources to back her claim.

    The better together propaganda machine has started again in our schools. Just thought I would let other parents know. If this is what 1st year pupils are getting then I can only imagine what 5th&6th year pupils, who will be voting age in IR2, will be getting told.

    I remember secondary school in the 80s where teachers would drop in comments designed to let us know where our place is.

  40. Snode1965 says:

    Apparently Mike Dailly has just joined the SNP!! That is massive if true.

  41. Clydebuilt says:

    Why does the SNP approach the BBC passively. After all they are our main obstacle to Independence.
    Could argue that the SNP’s approach so far has been successful…… Alternatively could say that with a further reduction in the BBC’s reputation we might already be an independent nation…….

    Many nationalists would like the SNP to take some action that would undermine the broadcasters reputation. What would this action be, is it achievable, and what would be the cost.

    Perhaps answering the BBC’s partial questions demonstrating that they are wrong and putting our case …… Is the best use we can make of the BBC. Until Indy they ain’t going away.

  42. Snode1965 says:

    If someone like Dailly can see the light, every NO voter is up for grabs.
    This should give every YES activist a lift. 🙂

  43. heedtracker says:

    Snode1965 says:
    28 January, 2017 at 11:35 am
    Apparently Mike Dailly has just joined the SNP!! That is massive if true.

    Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 3h3 hours ago

    Duncan Hothersall Retweeted Mike Dailly
    Spot on Mike.Duncan Hothersall added,

    Mike Dailly @mikedailly
    No @theSNP has been slicing local government budgets year on year for a decade @stuart1157 @NicolaSturgeon But #indy oil will pay for it?

    Wasnt this the lawyer that was making a list of cybernats, ref 1? Not sure what he was going to do with the list though. Send Xmas cards.

  44. harry mcaye says:

    heedtracker – that Mike Dailly link! He’s going to be an abusive cybernat, isn’t he? 😉

    Welcome aboard Mike!

  45. O/T

    Just another observation about the unreliability of local council by election results and reading them as too meaningful.

    Thursday night’s turnout was a poor 26%. The SNP increased its vote in a lower turnout than the previous election which is encouraging but one can assume the SNP had more effort and more workers than the failed Labour Party so that should be factored in.
    Percentage increases or decreases can be deceiving.
    If you have 1 vote in one election and 2 votes in the next you have a 100% increase in your vote. If however you have 101 votes in one election and get 102 in the next the percentage increase is imperceptible. It is very easy to get huge “swings” from a very low point in low turnouts which is what the Tories have been doing – and the media will paint these as hugely significant.

    Mike Dailly has joined the SNP! I nearly fainted. Welcome,Mike

  46. galamcennalath says:

    Ken500 says:

    Many Scottish migrants are US citizens. Approx 10% of the US electorate are of Scottish descent. …. Offend Scotland and lose out.

    Indeed. We need to build up support for Indy among US ‘Scots’.

    I am always wary of drawing parallels between the Irish experience of getting out of the UK and Scotland’s. However, their backing from US ‘Irish’ played an important role.

    Among other things there are ethnic blocks of voters in the US … Irish, Jewish, Hispanic, etc etc. It work in our favour to have a pro Indy Scots block.

    We need to make it the done thing for US ‘Scots’ to want independence for their old country .

  47. heedtracker says:

    harry mcaye says:
    28 January, 2017 at 11:48 am
    heedtracker – that Mike Dailly link! He’s going to be an abusive cybernat, isn’t he? ?

    Welcome aboard Mike!

    There are no abusive cybernats, because there are no cybernats Harry.

  48. DerekM says:

    Nice to see our FM is looking into our very own currency it makes sense,i know that they always planned to try to save sterling and that was the reason behind the currency union plan which was scorned,laughed at and dismissed by westminster in indyref,it would be a bad mistake to try again or even offer,if there is to be a currency union let them ask for it.

  49. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Regarding your sons RE teacher @ Fran says at 11:30 am Make an official complaint to the school and local education authority about them overstepping their mark and bringing politics into a religious education lesson.

    They might not do anything about it but you never know.

  50. Stoker says:

    Just catching up, stopped reading the thread and went to bed with sore jaws and watery eyes with Cactus’ comment at 9:35pm. It works better if you follow the thread and all its seriousness and then deadpan, Cactus drops that into the mix. Magic!
    yesindyref2 wrote on 27 January, 2017 at 11:12 pm

    “There’s another one, they seem to do a shift pattern, who picks on posters he thinks are useful, like recently Nana with her links, hoping to discourage them from posting, to discredit them. I’ve had people trying to do that in, errr, elsewhere, which I love because it stiffens my resolve to keep going. He also tries to use the “anti-English” line, as many of the Unionists you find on the London-based blogs try to do.”

    FFS man, at least have the testicular fortitude and spinal stiffness to name that person instead of casting murky aspersions. We demand answers! We demand to know! Name and shame!

    A lot of good comments on here, even if some are a bit iffy and one doesn’t agree with them. That gives others the opportunity to openly challenge those views. We should never be discouraging opinions, it gives us the opportunity to educate and form more acceptable opinions.

    Meg Merrilees (11:35pm)
    Re; FMQ’s on thursday, and NHS Aberdeen….
    Thanks! That’s going into my wee (A5) black book of ammo along with one or two others like BDDTs SNHS/Courier info several days ago. Thanks again!

    Re; The Falkland Islands….
    Aye, perfect place for their new WMD base when we turf them out.

  51. Clydebuilt says:

    Fran @ 11.30 it is a breach of a Teachers code of conduct for a school teacher to voice a political opinion to pupils. You should notify the headmaster ….. You can do this anonymously. Also could notify SNP MSP.

  52. Snode1965 says:

    Not sure about lists, but he did have to make an unreserved public apology to Alex Salmond, over his twitter rants.

  53. HandandShrimp says:

    I see the allegations against Chris Law have been found to have no substance and the police will take no further action.

    Anybody know who made the allegations?

  54. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


    Forgot to say nice letter “Export figures ‘insult intelligence'” by @ Dave McEwan Hill in yesterdays P&J.

  55. Nana says:

    A few links

    Slab buying likes on facebook

    Spaceport plans delayed by Brexit

    Take heed Scotland

    Takes a while to read but very interesting.

  56. DerekM says:

    Jings that Mike,is it for real?

    And do i need to give back my i am on the vile cybernat list t-shirt?

  57. heedtracker says:

    Snode1965 says:
    28 January, 2017 at 12:00 pm
    Not sure about lists, but he did have to make an unreserved public apology to Alex Salmond, over his twitter rants.

    None so righteous as the newly converted. Its an astonishing conversion but there are hundreds of thousands more too. Thus yoon mass freak out at the next and last referendum.

  58. galamcennalath says:

    Fran says:

    RE teacher was warning against an IScotland and how bad it would be.

    Shocking. That teacher needs to be tackled through official channels and formally disciplined.

    I would say the same if they had been pushing Indy. A good teacher could foster discussion about such issues among students without being partisan.

    I note it was an RE teacher. Remember this is a topic which needs no evidence or facts. Perhaps the most dangerous place to introduce politics!

  59. Croompenstein says:


    Dylan’s never accepted a UK accolade, but he has from the Scots

    Good old Bob heed, he wrote a song about Emmett Till a boy who was murdered in the land of the free and his killers still walk in the land of the free and the home of the brave…

  60. Fran says:

    Thanks for the advise folks

  61. Grouse Beater says:

    Your weekend reading:

    Scotland, where stands it now?:
    A war film of ‘two halves’:

  62. Stoker says:

    Fran on 28 January, 2017 at 11:30 am:

    She should be sacked! What the blazes has Religious Education got to do with the fight for Scottish independence in the 21st Century? That’s a bit rhetorical because we could all squeeze religion into it with very little effort.

    I would love to see footage of that lesson just to see exactly how she manages to do it and to see her true agenda for myself.

    This sort of stuff gets me highly suspicious. She’s in a position of forming opinion in very young, impressionable and fertile minds.

    Is that “teacher” a throwback to Slabbers old tactics? Tactics which some Slabberites still attempt to employ.

  63. Nana says:


    I’ve seen online it was a Tory who smeared Chris Law, not seen anyone naming the lying Tory toerag.

    Chris has been through months of hell. I believe we should be told who made false allegations against him which not only tarred a good man but led the police down a blind alley costing goodness knows how much.

  64. DerekM says:

    @ Nana yea that is what i heard but it has been all hushed up typical,Chris should now proceed with defamation charges to bring the whole thing out in the open imo.

  65. ScottieDog says:

    I had thought about bill Mitchell since he did weigh-in at the last indyref, however I think he is pretty anti-Europe and was very vocal during Brexit so he might be at odds with the plan to stay in the EU. He might be more of a proponent of EFTA though, I don’t know.

    Stephanie Kelton is a bit more moderate but still a strong proponent of MMT. She was at the forefront of the sanders campaign in America. She also contributed to Marianna mazzucato’s latest book ‘Rethinkng Capitalism’. Mazzucato is familiar with the Scottish govt so maybe there is a link there..

  66. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 28 January, 2017 at 9:48 am:

    ” … We are about to enter a no holds barred propaganda war with the UK establishment.”

    Oh! Wake up, Breeks, Scotland has been in a propaganda war with the Establishment in London since London was named Londinium and before the original Westminster Palace, that burned to the ground, was even built.

    You probably think I’m kidding or exaggerating. Well think on this. The Battle of Mons Graupius was, according to Tacitus, a Roman military victory in what became Scotland around AD 83. Tacitus records that the Romans (numbering 11,000 troops) were met at Mons Graupius by 30,000 Picts.
    Tacitus claims that 10,000 Picts were killed in the battle.

    So where are the skeletal remains and the discarded and broken weapons? Old bits of apparel and whatever passed for armour and shields? 10,000 bodies and probably more dying from wounds and nothing has been found? There can hardly be a bit of Scotland that has not been searched at sometime since BC 82/3 yet nothing? BTW: Tacitus was the son-in-law of the Roman General who fought the Picts.

    Still think that British History is a true account, Breeks?
    From Romans to Brexiteers the dwellers of Londinium have always been at a propaganda war with Scotland and the entire written British History can be easily exposed as fabricated and just a pure pack of lies.

    Very recent events are no exception.

  67. Jack Murphy says:

    TODAY. Chris Law MP cleared of financial wrongdoing
    BBC Scotland Archived:-

  68. gordoz says:

    @Jack Murphy


    Great news, but does Chris Law not have a right of redress against accusers or to pursue those who made the now baseless allegations; or indeed Police Scotland to now proceed against malicious accusers for ‘Time Wasting’ ??

  69. Stoker says:

    RE: Chris Law being cleared. I can’t find any reference anywhere to his accuser(s). Surely that should be public knowledge?

    RE: Mike Dailly joining the SNP. Good news, hope all these lawyers get together and start kicking some very big arses. They’ll not be short of work. Perhaps a good way to bring in lots of cash to help fund various pro independence initiatives.

  70. ScottieDog says:

    Will try not to pre judge but ‘advisor to the IMF and the world bank’ (two pillars of neoliberalism) doesn’t fill me with calm.

    YES2 should get its own economic advisors.

  71. I live in England and I am entitled to vote but if England were to have a referendum on independence I would not vote because believe only the English people would have right to decide thier countries future no one else and that includes me

  72. Croompenstein says:

    But…but.. special relationship..

  73. Valerie says:

    So glad poor Chris Law has come out of another SNP targeted smear campaign. I’m sure there is some suitably shitty reason for releasing the news late on a Friday night.

    Watching the UK PM on Sky fluffing the next tyrant on her world tour of tyrants.

    Next stop Saudi, to spectate one of their regular beheading sessions. UKIP must be peeing their pants at this revolting begging bowl tour of countries who are seasoned Human Rights abusers.

    Twitter now full of all the USA stories of middle East students being warned about taking legal advice, airlines refusing travel to certain nationalities.

  74. Breeks says:

    @ Robert Peffers… lol. I was raised in a world questioning why Nigel Stamer Smith was commentator on Scottish Rugby matches when Bill McLaren was available. BBC manipulation and Propaganda is not a new phenomenon in our house.

    I remember too, John Jeffrey, Scottish Flanker asked in a BBC studio just before kick off of a Calcutta Cup match where both England and Scotland were going for the Triple crown and grand slam. “So John Jeffrey, is this one of the best England teams you’ve ever seen?” In fairness, England had been giving teams a mauling, where Scotland’s victories had been close affairs, but victories all the same. Mr Jeffrey was very coy, and said let’s wait and see what happens. Afterwards, once Scotland had royally thumped English plans for the Grand slam, as I recall a beaming Mr Jeffrey was the only guest in the studio. It was almost as good as watching the match itself. Lol

    But my point is the background, highly toxic level of propaganda is about to go off the scale once we enter the final months of pre-Brexit politics. My point was simply that we need two high profile and media savvy websites for the SNP and YES2 which can handle digital media clips and a serviceable database of material. That’s everything, from McCrone to London Calling, and The Top 10 Unionist Myths Busted brought up to date would be nice too… lol

  75. Breeks says:

    And as for Scottish history, I cannot for the life of me give you any source, but I have two ideas lodged in my brain; the first that the Picts were remarkable seafarers, and had Pictish “navy” which once upon a time sacked London- a very primitive preRoman London. Obviously nothing like a modern concept of a Navy, but naval capacity, not unlike the later Vikings.

    Where that notion came from, I cannot say. I am aware of no source or reference I can share, but I have firm conviction that the Romans were very wary about bringing ships and vessels up the Scottish (before it was Scottish) coast, because they had healthy respect for the Picts at sea.

    I have quietly held that idea for decades, lodged in the back of my head. I would very much love to know where that notion came from, and whether it is actually true. I heard it once, then never again.

  76. louis.b.argyll says:

    In a propaganda ‘war’ – ducking is the best tactic.

    Shouting ‘liar’ at the liars, let’s them feel out our soft spots.

    Whispering ‘they’re lying’ to each other, is a nudge and a wink, that ‘we’ know the truth.

  77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I just want to commend Breeks for a remarkably sane posting @ 04:32 in the wee sma’ hours (after my bed time) after a somewhat tetchy evening on this thread.

    To all our English posters and visitors, your input here is as important as anyone else’s. Your insights may even have more traction with Scottish residents of similar origin who will (rightfully) have a vote in indyref2.

    There’s still a lot of ignorance out there (as the header article itself ilustrates) that needs to be overcome for us to win the next time round, and every single positive contribution to that aim can help.

  78. louis.b.argyll says:

    Sea-faring sounds like a technological advancement beyond the reach of early tribes.

    However, evidence exists of huge pre Roman-era Celtic fleets and even the ability of ocean travel.

  79. Legerwood says:

    Breeks @ 1.45

    Picts and the sea.

    Does this help?

  80. Stu Mac says:


    You are mistaken. Several posters on here have advocated stopping English born Scottish residents from voting – that includes many who contribute a lot to our country and a good number who voted Yes. That means depriving people of common human democratic rights and I can’t see how anyone can advocate that unless they are anti-English.

  81. Proud Cybernat says:

    Perhaps we should be encouraging those from other parts of the UK who wish to remain in the EU and who support the concept of a country’s right to govern itself to come and make Scotland their home–and to do so in time to qualify for a vote in IndyRef2. Indy would then be a Nigel Tranter with our European (aye, including those from around the UK) helping us over the line.

    If you are from elsewhere in the world and have made Scotland your home and wish to see us independent in the EU then get your family and friends to come to Scotland in the next year. They will be made most welcome and encouraged to stay (should they wish) after we have won our indy.

  82. Hamish100 says:

    Blair Paterson you state that you would not vote in an English “independence” election.That is your choice. It is entirely a different thing to say you have NO right to vote depending on accident of birth or as happened to EU citizens during referendum. Residency is everything I believe which is up for debate as to what this means eg 5yrs, 10yrs?

  83. Robert Peffers says:

    @Fred says: 28 January, 2017 at 9:59 am:

    “The people of Scotland are all emigrants it’s just that most of us have forgotten the details!”

    Well! Fred, unless you include the original post ice age aboriginal Britons, (and there are many theories that the Northern Isles were once the capital of Britain), then your claims are not true.

    The aboriginal Britons came from the fertile lands that are now under the North Sea. There is a long rocky ridge beneath the North Sea that once held back the cold polar seas and this breeched and slowly flooded what we now call, “Doggerland”.

    The exploration for oil & gas has insured that we know the undersea North Sea well. It is proven to once have been inhabited. Obviously those lived there made for the higher and less easy to navigate higher ground of Britain and Scandinavia. Genetic testing proves most Britons are descended from these stone age original settlers. In fact there is little signs of Roman genetics nor actual Anglo Saxon and Norman genetics. BTW: There is actually far fewer Celtic genes also. It was the cultures of the Immigrants rather than their genes we modern Britons inherited from them.

  84. Hamish100 says:

    BBCR4 Any Answers. Mr Loyalist from Central Scotland on . SNP should vote for brexit. This well kent voice also from Call Kaye is given a free ride by the BBC

  85. Capella says:

    @ Heedtracker – Dylan bought a house in Newtonmore. His brother David mostly lives there. His “Hearts in the Highlands” references the bluebells where the Aberdeen waters flow.

  86. That’s correct it is my choice not to vote no one would have to tell me to do what I consider to be the right thing

  87. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 28 January, 2017 at 10:03 am:

    “Breeks says: better website for both YES2 and the SNP
    Definitely. They need to be the main sources of news from the Yes side.”

    As I pointed out the SNP and SG are not the YES side. The YES side are the Grass Roots Movement.

    I have also posted several times links where anyone can sign up to get emails from Nicola directly right into your mailbox. I also just checked their website and there are several updates dated for 28th January.

  88. Hamish100 says:

    Blair– good you got my point now accept that the majority of us on here don’t agree in preventing English, Welsh, Irish, French, German, Polish, Indian, Pakistani from not being allowed to vote in indyref 2. Now move on.

  89. K1 says:

    ‘makes one wonder if we are seeing an attempt to get a few folk here to agree (partially or otherwise) with them and create a thread that can be used to make out we’re all blood and soil nutters here..

    Well there will be plenty of ‘material’ on this thread to that end Stu. Thank you for your kind words.


    Oh Lochside, yoo hoo? Now’s yer chance tae tackle the wonderful and erudite Mr Peffers…praise be ‘his’ name on Wings*


  90. Robert Peffers says:

    @Scott says: 28 January, 2017 at 11:14 am:

    “I know its O/T but why no mention of this on BBC Scotland ready enough to report on it when it came out.
    EXCLUSIVE: Dundee MP Chris Law cleared of financial wrongdoing after four-month police probe.


    Do you really mean you actually need to ask?

  91. Stu Mac says:


    All these things may be true but you ignore what we know for sure Trump has said and done – admitted to groping, insulting Mexicans, denying abortion rights, being anti-science and appointing real right wing nutters to his cabinet.

    You see, Trump is an outsider, but he’s a Billionaire outsider who was just a bit too weird for the normal establishment but who nevertheless has attitudes in common with it, and even the worst elements of it. He wanted to become president so what does he do? He attacks the establishment government for things he knows a lot of Americans think are wrong.

    Nothing wrong with that, that’s how democracy works, sometimes good things get done by guys who couldn’t care less but see an opportunity to get approval by doing so. He also has raised anti-immigrant prejudice, that was another way of getting approval from a certain electoral element. So one good one bad and maybe a lot more bad.

    So while it’s good he’s likely to be a bit more sensible towards the Russians, it doesn’t mean he’s necessarily a good guy – for instance he seems inclined to stir up things with the Chinese. Don’t think because someone does one or two things you approve of that means you can ignore everything else we know about him and it’s not all “lying MSM” (that’s not a quote btw just condensing an set of ideas into 2 words).

  92. Croompenstein says:

    Get your Keir Hardie tea towels here 2 for a poun 2 for a poun..

    This from Slab… (don’t mention Home Rule, I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it).. 🙂

    Last week saw the 111th anniversary of Keir Hardie becoming the first leader of the newly formed Labour Party. The values he stood for – workers’ rights, decent homes and equality of opportunity for all, are still at the heart of our movement today.

    To commemorate this moment in our history, we are offering a limited edition Keir Hardie tea-towel in return for a donation of £20 or more. All funds raised will go directly towards the crucial Local Government Elections in May and will help us keep the spirit and values of Keir Hardie alive in towns and cities throughout Scotland

  93. Stu Mac says:


    That should be reported. Teachers are not allowed to preach politics at schools. A disciplinary offence I should think. Report to local council or MP too if no dice from Head teacher who might be inclined to protect his colleague.

  94. Sue Varley says:

    What annoyed me most about indyref1 franchise are those who voted “No” fully intending to move to somewhere else in rUK if result had been “Yes”. ie we had to abide by their choice, but they were not willing to do the same.

    There were both Scots-born and incomers in this category.

    If any residents were to be excluded, these are the ones I would select, as they are not committed to Scotland, just what they get out of living here. Sadly there is no way of excluding these beings from voting in indyref2.

    But to my way of thinking, anyone who is committed to the country deserves a say in its future, which is why I found it so heinous that EU nationals were debarred from voting in the EU ref.

  95. Croompenstein says:

    Och missed a bit…

    Just like the Tories, the SNP fund their campaigns with donations from millionaires and big business. In this election the Tories and the SNP will outspend us again, but with your help we will deliver the Labour message that there is a fairer, better way.

    Thank you

    Scottish Labour Party

  96. Joemcg says:

    Blood and soil? Have we got Alistair Darling’s family on here now?!

  97. K1 says:

    ‘In this election the Tories and the SNP will outspend us again, but with your help we will deliver the Labour message that there is a fairer, better way.’

    Why didn’t Labour ‘deliver’ on this ‘message that there is a fairer, better way’ when they were in power for 13 years under Blair? More soundbite rhetoric from the party who destroyed the ethos of the Labour movement to get into power in ’97.

    They’ll need those tea towels to wipe their collective arses in the run up tae May’s elections.

  98. Dr Jim says:

    Any teacher who takes a side in politics or religion and imparts that to their students should be kicked out of teaching, if some other organisation did that the teachers would be accusing them of brainwashing

    Teachers are there to pose the questions to that kind of debate not supply their own answers
    I’ve already seen some of this stuff before at our last referendum, it’s disgraceful behaviour

  99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sue Varley @ 15:25,

    You could of course say the same about those who are shortly to depart from the country in another (more heavenly) way!

    But, as we have seen, any kind of artificial selection is simply an attempt to skew the result. In effect an admission that we can’t win by merely convincing enough people that our case is true.

    It’s defeatist, and I for one don’t buy it. Not even for everyone in those categories that seem to be hardest to win over.

    As others have said, we certainly need to up our game, starting right now, but it’s becoming clearer and clearer that indy is the only sensible way forward. This thing is winnable, period.

  100. robertknight says:

    I think I’ll blow £20 on a KH tea towel and post it to Trump’s latest ‘Bitch’ – she can use it to dry the dishes next time she’s invited over for afternoon tea. Recon The Donald would prefer she restrict herself to kitchen-based duties in any event and refrain from trying to drop helpful hints re. foreign policy, NATO, trade, etc.

  101. Dr Jim says:

    Over on the revs Twitter somebody’s posted an account submitted to the electoral commision by UKIP for a donation of £18,500 from the Labour party
    Who says they aren’t all one big Union Party

    I’m rubbish at the links so have a look

  102. Helena Brown says:

    Regarding the Keir Hardie anniversary the corpse is too busy right now, he is birling in his grave generating electricity at the antics of the party he helped found.

  103. Stoker says:

    This one is worth a repeat showing:

    Juan P wrote on 27 January, 2017 at 11:32 pm:
    “Fuck all this born and bred pure Scots only allowed to vote shite. We’re all mongrels. If you’re genuinely pure bred then you’re most likely retarded….which probably explains advocating a right to vote based on the supposed purity of your blood.”

    Whilst nobody actually uses the terminology that you use, ie; “born and bred pure Scots” or “..right to vote based on the supposed purity of your blood”, i totally agree 100% with the general basis of your point that “We’re all mongrels.”

    Pft! I’ve got Irish, French, Canadian, Cornish, Yorkshire, Perthshire, Stirlingshire, Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and numerous other lines feeding into my existence. So yeah, woof woof! 😀

    If we’re going to go down the route of excluding folk due to their background, rather than their current status, at what point do we stop? We might as well go the full hog and exclude all the names from our history associated with bad stuff.

    Can i get the ball rolling? How about starting with the Campbell’s? Sounds good to me. Sugar, maybe not, i almost forgot, one of them owns this site. Whistles off into the sunset looking over shoulder.

  104. Capella says:

    Good Long Letter in The National re trade figures and GERS. Suggests The National could help with compiling actual figures to inform the Independence debate. Good idea.

  105. yesindyref2 says:

    @Blair Paterson “I live in England and I am entitled to vote but if England were to have a referendum on independence I would not vote because believe only the English people would have right to decide thier countries future no one else and that includes me

    I have a lot of customers around Scotland, small businesses in or near tourist areas (not big towns). Many of these are owned by English people, who sold their houses in England, Yorkshire perhaps because there’s nothing there for them, London or the south because they’re sick of the “rat race”, or anywhere because they don’t like Westminster politics or just prefer Scotland for some odd reason 🙂

    They sell their house, and buy a business (quite often run down), and either stay above the business or manage to get a small house somewhere near. They invest a lot of hours and hard work and money, and borrow, and turn that business into a big plus for the area, the community, and employment. In many cases they’re active in the community, on the community council, perhaps even stand as a candidate for the council. They have only one home – their one in Scotland. And their only vote would be in Scotland.

    Yet a fair few of these were like you, wouldn’t vote in the referendum as it’s “not their country and it wouldn’t be fair”. You what? They don’t live in England, don’t have a vote, and mostly have no intention of “going home”. They ARE home. I tried with some where possible to convince them that they had the same right as people “born” here, no idea if I succeeded. Some I knew would vote YES, they were supportive. What I found was that those who were against Independence fully intended to vote.

    But all of them are entitled to vote, Scotland is their home, and they live here.

  106. Hermodr says:

    Problem with that, Sue, is that there are a lot of people who will leave Scotland after a No vote this time. Expect big emigration in the event of a No vote, and major immigration if Yes.

  107. Stoker says:

    Dr Jim on 28 January, 2017 at 3:44 pm:

    This one?

  108. Proud Cybernat says:

    Keep in mind, folks. NO won IndyRef14 by 383,937 votes. To draw level we need only half that amount – 191,969 (rounded).

    There are presently around 190,000 people in Scotland from EU countries. In Scotland’s current population there are 17% of people under the age of 16. If we apply that to the EU nationals living here then 157,700 are of voting age. Many of these people in 2014 would have been persuaded to either not vote or vote NO by BT lies (as the only way to secure their future in the EU).

    I personally know many EU nationals who, to a man and woman, will be voting YES in IndyRef#2. Indeed, I expect that of the 157,700, around 95% will vote YES next time round – that’s 149,815 more YESSERS for IndyRef#2.

    We need only another 42,154 from the rest of the Scottish population to change from NO to YES to win IndyRef#2 – that’s less than 1% of the current voting population. And I haven’t even factored in the changed demographic from 2014. We’re probably already ahead.

    I’m telling you folks – WE REALLY CAN DO THIS!!

  109. manandboy says:

    Propaganda is like smog. If it’s all round you, then you probably won’t even think about it. To see propaganda clearly, you have to rise above, and the way to rise above it is to THINK about. Specifically, this means looking for it through questioning it.
    Every day, for example, there WILL BE at least one story in the headlines which is pure propaganda. Its easy to spot a) because every newspaper will promote it, and b) because every TV news & politics programme will promote it to the max, and c) it will be referred to repeatedly over many weeks.

    The current Big Propaganda Lie is that the British economy has strengthened since the Brexit vote. The purpose of this lie is obvious, which is to brainwash the UK electorate into thinking that leaving the EU will make no difference to the UK, quite the opposite. This lie is being targeted at Scotland to create the false belief that being out of the EU is better than being in it,and therefore to vote Indy in the EU

  110. John Russell says:

    Martin Offiah suffers from a big head, a big ego and a big mouth his comments on Scottish politics are unwelcome. The snigger and sneer will be wiped off his face when Scotland takes its independence and England suffers

  111. Robert Peffers says:

    @Croompenstein says: 28 January, 2017 at 1:32 pm:

    “But…but.. special relationship..

    Aye! Croompenstein, I had a brief scan at that link. The level of awareness was dreadful. Some referred to Britain as a country, some to the UK as if that were a country too. Is it any wonder the Westminster Supreme, Kangaroo, Court think they can get away with just writing Scotland off as, “Extinguished”, with that level of uneducated numpties posting drivel.

  112. Not Convinced says:

    Beats me why anyone would want to suggest going down a road that has both the Third Reich and/or Northern Ireland (at the height of “The Troubles”) as examples of where it can lead … ?

    Okay, so you deny the right to vote in an independence referendum to the “foreign born”, but does it end there? Can they can campaign for/against? Can they donate money to parties/groups campaigning for/against? What if the result is still a pretty close run thing, albeit for independence, and then someone launches a “Reunification Party” claiming that the result was illegitimate and that if elected they will enter into a new union … Will you then be denying the right to vote in future election to the “foreign born”? Perhaps the “foreign born” will be required to wear a distinctive mark on their clothing? A yellow star perhaps?

    Now maybe you’re not advocating going that far. Maybe you think you can walk down the road that leads to the Third Reich just far enough “to do what needs to be done”, and then walk back to normality. Maybe you think an institutionalised racism at the creation of a new state won’t result in normalising racism, or that other countries won’t react to it. Who knows, maybe you’re even right, but even so you’ve established the precedent that it’s perfectly okay to deny the rights of a minority if the cause is “important enough” … Do you want to risk living in a Scotland, or any other country, where that’s okay? Are you sure you’ll never be in an excluded group?

    … and that’s before we get to the point that the press and the unionists would have a field day over the “blood and soil nationalism”, over “they don’t think they can win, so they’re trying to cheat” and for sure and certain they’d find someone who was born in England (prematurely perhaps), but spent every moment of their lives after those first few weeks in Scotland and you’ve now denied them the right to decide their future! Bonus points if they find someone who would’ve voted “Yes!”.

  113. frogesque says:


    May getting a press grilling in Turkey. Some very awkward questions being asked. Strange our MSM can’t do likewise.

  114. cirsium says:

    thanks for the link to Stephanie Kelton’s lecture, scottie dog (9.23am). Very interesting.

    thanks for the link to the article on planning for a Scottish currency, cappella (10.47am). At last! I never liked the idea of being tied to the City of London, even temporarily. Independence is not possible without monetary sovereignty.

  115. manandboy says:

    Tablets, doh!

    part 2…. and therefore to vote Indy in the EU is a waste of time. Better Together in the faster growing economy of the UK.

    Of course every word of it is a lie straight from the Downing St. PR dept. There is so much information out there to indicate that the UK is headed for a very hard Brexit and that the UK economy will suffer very badly indeed – Scotland in particular, with the treacherous Tory Establishment at the helm.

    Propaganda is like smog and we in Scotland will continue to be almost suffocated by it until Independence arrives.

  116. heedtracker says:

    Capella says:
    28 January, 2017 at 2:38 pm
    @ Heedtracker – Dylan bought a house in Newtonmore. His brother David mostly lives there. His “Hearts in the Highlands” references the bluebells where the Aberdeen waters flow.

    I heard. Stunning part of Scotland less travelled, then all the way up through Speyside over the Black Isle to where Madonna last got hitched.

    No idea why he’s never taken an English award. It cant just be down to the “Judas” thing. They are big fans the English. He did a BBC r2 series a while back

    It got a bit itchy and scratchy with the English media, when he accepted the St Andrews doctorate too. Its probably with such an Anglocentric tory BBC world view on everything as we do, its just not that big a deal for one of the biggest world stars. He just loves that fine Scottish air.

    That’s what Americans I know always say when the first get here, glorious fresh Scottish air:D

  117. donnywho says:

    So Teresa is on her whistle stop tour of repressive regimes. Now in Turkey laying flowers on Araturk’s Tomb.

    Forgive me if I am wrong was he not the hero of Galipoli… Fought with the Kaiser and slaughtered the ANZACS.

    Has the current president not locked up all descent and murders Kurds.

  118. Meg merrilees says:

    Heard a frank discussion on radio today ( think it was R5 ‘Up all night’ prog early this a.m – can’t remember) talking about healthcare in America, what would happen to people post Obamacare; how lots of folk can;t afford health insurance but there is an emergency care system for true emergencies, however, you still have to pay for drugs etc

    They then compared the NHS to that.
    NHS England gets about £117 bn; Scotland gets about £12.5bn which is about 40% of our budget; don’t remember Wales and N. Ireland )but they were less than us and I think N. Irleand was pos.s only about £7 bn)

    They then gave out stats on number of GP’s , Surgeons, nurses – 250,000 etc in E NHS and the staggering figure that they treat 1,000,000 patients every 36 hours in England!!!

    An amazing achievement – and all that the media can do is criticise and run it into the ground. We have to defend the NHS throughout Britain because the American alternative is horrendous.

    How many people realise that most GP’s in N. Ireland are about to resign en masse as a result of poor funding? if that happens they will resort to the (southern) Irish notion whereby you have to pay for a consultation.

    These are the kind of situations we face if we don’t get independence and a UKIP government would be even more austere.

  119. I think I have identified 3 – 77Brigade operatives on here. They write in the same style, use the same nonsense, follow the same behavior.

  120. bugsbunny says:

    Not convinced,

    What are you not convinced about? The Scot’s having a vote? Independence? Not being colonized? Scotland existing? What a load of Unionist Pish. We are not the Imperialists/Colonists. We are not denying anyone’s Independence? Imagine if Scotland had regained or never lost our Independence and Ireland was still undivided, but under English rule. And those Scot’s who rally against past injustices towards Scotland campaigning against Irish Independence. What would the Irish be thinking?

    BTW Not only did the EU citizens not have a vote in the EU referendum, but during the second Welsh Referendum a few years ago about expanding powers,all people who had lived in Wales under 4 years, including students, and all Holiday Home owners were denied the vote. But Wales is ruled by Unionists so that’s Ok. It’s OK to Heil Hitler in George Square if you’re a Unionist/Loyalist. Hell, the BBC/MSM won’t even report it. The Scot’s really must be Untermenschen to people like you. Maybe you would like some of us gassed. Why don’t you just abolish Scotland/Scot’s and get it by with.

    I’ve never meet an English No voter that didn’t vote leave, waxing lyrically about past Injustices and regaining National Sovereignty and Independence, yet deny Scotland the same. Do as I say not as I do. I’m beyond angry and bitter at all No voters. We don’t need any more.

  121. Glamaig says:

    donnywho says:
    28 January, 2017 at 4:51 pm
    ‘So Teresa is on her whistle stop tour of repressive regimes. Now in Turkey laying flowers on Araturk’s Tomb.

    Forgive me if I am wrong was he not the hero of Galipoli… Fought with the Kaiser and slaughtered the ANZACS.’

    Ataturk is their national hero and rightly so. They were being invaded at Gallipoli and defeated the British and French who massively underestimated them. The Allied generals thought they were up against a bunch of ‘wogs’ as they would have termed it. And I say that as somebody whose grandfather was at Anzac. Its massive for them, its their equivalent of Battle of Britain. Also he was the founder of the secular state, which has proved stable.

    It was mainly due to British diplomatic incompetence that Turkey entered the war on the side of the Germans, they could have been on our side. How different the Middle East might have looked today.

    Not condoning their current regime though, the way they treat the Kurds (and Armenians in the past) is appalling.

  122. bugsbunny says:

    James Caithness,

    I just looked up what you said about the 77th Brigade online. Bloody hell. They were in operation by September 2014, just in time for our referendum. Bastards.

  123. Robert Peffers says:

    Anyone else having posts vanish? I first had some trouble Cutting & Pasting. Couldn’t do either. Then a spell when the comment I was writing just vanished. It seems now to have settled down again, though.

  124. Stoker says:

    Robert Peffers wrote on 28 January, 2017 at 5:14 pm:

    “Anyone else having posts vanish?”


  125. vlad (not that one ) says:

    For all it’s worth, the only EU nationals of my recent acquaintance were a young married couple + baby. Husband, a scienist, working, wife – at the time – looking after baby.

    I understand he had been told by his employers he may lose his job if Yes wins.

    At Indieref1 the husband voted Yes regardless, explaining later he did not think it was his place, being a guest, to oppose Scottish independence. His spouse, mindful of his job, the baby, etc. reluctantly voted No.

    As far as I know, he lost his job anyway. We lost contact since, and I do not know whether they will stick around for Indyref2.

    So there.

  126. bugsbunny says:

    Hitler once said in Mein Kampf, “Who today remembers the Armenians?”, about the 1.5 million poor souls murdered by the Young Turks. Today one may say that Churchill could be quoted as saying “Who today remembers the Bengali’s?”, concerning the 4 million Bengali’s who were left to starve to death after millions of tons of grains were requisitioned by the British Raj to feed the British and Commonwealth troops fighting in Burma. So who remembers this 1940’s “Holodomor”. Well apart from Indians and Bengali’s almost no-one. When Churchill was informed of this what was his reply between puffs of cigars, fatty meats and Champers? “Ah, well you see, they’re only wogs”. Fat despicable swine.

  127. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    I also just checked their website and there are several updates dated for 28th January.

    The SNP website isn’t useless for news, it’s just poor.

    Example. On the 24th Nicola’s official response to the SC was tweeted as an image. The text seemed to be unavailable anywhere online for hours. It did eventually appear on their website.

    What should have happened is that the tweet should have contained a link to a formal press release on both SG and SNP sites.

    The Greens are much better. They update news on their site far more responsively.

    Everyone uses RSS to draw attention to news releases. That how I follow what’s happening. An app on my iPad monitors about 100 sites. Everything from Times of Israel, BBC, Sky, STV, Washington Post, New Zealand Herald through to WoS, Bella, Greens, Bateman, PopGoesSco etc etc.

    The only one missing is the SNP who dropped RSS a couple of years ago.

    I have complained. They just don’t take their online presence as seriously as they should.

  128. ronnie anderson says:

    @ James Caithness Pmsl 3 from 77th brigands. They’re squads of them in Redford barracks 4 hrs oan 4hrs aff , ah know we have more than 3 . They are covering all the Indy sites, watch out for the agent provocateurs at the rallies & demonstrations also.

  129. bugsbunny says:

    Robert, I thought that was only happening to me. That post above I wrote about the “Bengali Famine” disappeared 3 times before it was finally posted in it’s present form. I thought it was something I was doing?

  130. sassenach says:

    I have to say that it worries me that the ‘establishment’ (77th or otherwise) may well have the power to ‘bring down’ any website.

    As Wings must be their most feared, it stands to reason they may try to hit it in the run-up to Indyref2.

    Can anyone put my mind at rest on this?

  131. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    bugsbunny 17:37:

    That post above I wrote about the “Bengali Famine” disappeared 3 times

    Maybe in this case it was down to autofiltering because the subject was spectacularly unrelated to what this thread was about. Not even close. Try Off-Topic next time and maybe you’ll have more luck.

    There’s more than one way that black ops can disrupt.

    Just sayin’, like…

  132. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for April 2013 now over on O/T.

  133. Garrion says:

    A bit o/t, But on the subject of missing posts, Ive been permanently placed in “pre moderation” over at the bastion of objective truth that is the guardian.

    This means that I dont get to comment at all. Effectively silenced. Ive also noticed a serious uptick in total bullshit Severin Carrel type content, and I’m also noticing a huge uptick in yoon astroturfing from the usual suspects and new accounts.

    I’m not a tinfoil hat wearer, but it seems that the game is well and truly afoot.

    Lets get to it.

  134. Stoker says:

    £100m Fighter Jet Deal

    Oh Aye! Where’s the 13 ships deal?

  135. heedtracker says:

    Heil Trump.

    NewsWorldMiddle East
    The Muslim country Trump isn’t banning refugees from
    Saudi Arabia has been a strategic partner of the US since the 1940s

    “Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide,” added the document.

    Saudi officials also recently admitted to misleading the US on funding extremism, according to the Politico website.

  136. Hermodr says:

    The Guardian’s comment section has changed massively over the past couple of years imo. It’s been targeted, I suppose. Wonder if it’ll get as bad as the Independent’s – a good paper but comment section infested with the most horrid bigotry.

  137. Undeadshuan says:


    I had that happen before, eventually reinstated.

    I think i accused guardian of being overseen by mi5 Since issue with snowdon and hard drives being destroyed

    I would say majority of our media including bbc are overseen by mi5.

  138. Thepnr says:


    “Can anyone put my mind at rest on this?”

    No sorry that’s not possible since 77th Brigade were specifically set up to “challenge the difficulties of modern warfare using non-lethal engagement and legitimate non-military levers as a means to adapt behaviours of the opposing forces and adversaries.”

    What that means is they are here to use propaganda particularly on social media websites to “persuade” some to change their ways, form opinion and sometimes to cause as much disruption as possible for the sites in question.

    In my humble opinion they are here on WOS and have been for some time. I doubt they are as noticeable though as the usual suspects who were quickly sent packing. They’re a bit more refined now, I’m sure.

    C’est la vie, .

  139. heedtracker says:

    Stoker says:
    28 January, 2017 at 6:02 pm
    £100m Fighter Jet Deal

    Planted tory story, a n other Teresa success. £100 gets one and a half F35’s. Tory BBC led pro Teresa propaganda heaviest since Brexit.

  140. heedtracker says:


  141. bugsbunny says:

    Someone brought up voting in more than one constituency. I think thy’re referring to plural voting, (voting in more than one constituency), which I believe was abolished in the Mainland UK in 1948 and Northern Ireland in 1972. It is punishable by jail as is all voter fraud. I wonder if the Police have asked Ruth Davidson about her knowledge on the overwhelmingly yes vote from the postal votes at 4pm on Thursday 18th September 2014? One constituency apparently had a 97% NO in the postal vote. We really need to stop these postal votes except to the housebound. If you are fit to shop, go to the pub or bookies or library, (which may, along with the Community Centre may be in our near the local primary school), then you should be able to vote local as well. It’s time we brought back cars to pick these people up to take them back and forward to vote. If you’re housebound, that is different, but I know plenty that go hill walking that use the postal vote system. This way of voting is wide open to abuse, as much as letting Unionists look after voting boxes unobserved.

    Stuffing the boxes with Labour votes from the dead/absent voters after 9pm perhaps? Remember that old scam?

  142. Gary45% says:

    77th Brigands, is this the boys brigade we are talking about? if not, FUCK THEM.
    They are up there with the Zionists= Ars*holes x2.
    As for Wiggy Trump an even BIGGER ARS*HOLE.
    Sue me.
    Anyone fancy a wee sortie up to the Menie Estate to build a wall round his illegal golf course, and as he has given the green light to the Zionists to steal even more land from Palestine, lets give him payback.
    Just to remind the 77th and mossad inbred trolls, the UK is supposedly a democracy with free speech.

  143. bugsbunny says:

    That should read the overwhelmingly NO vote by 4pm in the postal votes.

  144. Liam says:

    Re the teacher:

    I work in schools in the Highlands, I’m part of the catering staff, not a teacher. In the lead up to Indyref#1 the Highland Council sent out specific instructions to all staff that schools were to be Referendum Free Zones for the duration – as I remember it we were told that even stickers on our cars were not allowed.

    She should be reported.

  145. Lochside says:

    K1…’snigger’ yeah sums you up,you are a fud plain and simple. I have no fear of what people say or comment on that which I contribute on here …whether it’s you or Peffers or anyone else. I’ve been on this site for at least five years. When did you show up? At least it’s my opinion that I express, not someone else’s, like you, you wee mini-me wee sneak.

  146. Bob MACK says:

    Theresa May has now seen Trump and Erdogan who quite frankly are two of the biggest fascists on the planet. I am reading that “green card” holders are being refused re entry to the States, even if they have jobs and houses there.

    . Apparently the ban does not extend to Saudi Arabia, who as we know are the greatest funder of terrorists bar none.Yet we crawl into dealings with them all and call them friends.

    I am revolted with Westminster. They utterly lack morals

  147. Stoker says:

    heedtracker on 28 January, 2017 at 6:18 pm:

    Absolutely! All stage managed like her recent stomach churning Trumpeteering. Look, EU, we don’t need you, nah nah nahnah nah!
    Sticks tongue out blowing raspberry. Meanwhile, we’re all laughing our heads off.

  148. heedtracker says:

    Can anyone put my mind at rest on this?

    WoS is moderated btl. Its that simple. Broadsheets like the Graun block all kinds of lunatics, me, for example But that’s fine. Stay off the comment section completely. They want lots of aggressive btl chat, its often more interesting and fun to read atl and makes them easy mullah too. Their hacks often steal what they read btl too.

    Most of the yoons btl on tory rags like Graun, Hootsman etc are almost all zoomers and roasters venting their spleens, before keeling over in a stew of their froth and bile, UK froth and bile!

  149. K1 says:

    ‘K1…’snigger’ yeah sums you up,you are a fud plain and simple’


    As for the rest of the insult: ‘At least it’s my opinion that I express, not someone else’s, like you, you wee mini-me wee sneak’…again, evidence?

    Quite the nasty wee nippie sweetie aren’t you Lochside, unlike you I have no need to cite the number of years I’ve been commenting on Wings as some sort of ‘proof’ of ‘legitimacy’. And wasn’t aware there was a standard set amount of years that a commenter has been posting on Wings that bestows the commenter as having more ‘valued’ input than those who haven’t been commenting for as long as others?

    Your nastiness is unwarranted and unfounded, but do continue with the smearing of me with absolutely no proof of the claims you make against me. You come across as very bitter, have the strongest feeling that’s your doing, not mine.


    (What is up wi folk over the last day or so on Wings?)

  150. K1 says:

    Just curious…what exactly is a ‘fud’ in the context of Lochside’s insult?

    I thought ‘fear, obfuscation and doubt, but that’s ‘fod’, what does ‘fud’ mean again?

    You can answer if ye want Lochside, don’t think you will want to, as I’m on your hit list today?

  151. Rock says:


    “if it is a fact that the majority of English born people living in Scotland voted against independence then why would you as an independence supporter object to being excluded from voting if it give us a better chance of winning,”

    Very good point.

  152. Glamaig says:

    Holy fkn crap – just popped out to the shop and saw the newspaper headlines – every single one hailing the ‘new special relationship’ even the Grauniad. What is going on? Its like they’re all written by the same people. Looks like a major propaganda drive of everything bright and beautiful in Trump/Brexit La-La land.

  153. Rock says:


    “Rock? In your response tae Lochside, you suggested a ‘vicious attack’ by his ‘sycophants’ would be forth coming. Can you furnish me with the evidence that supports your claim specifically related to ‘KI’”

    My reference was to a certain poster’s sycophants.

    If you are not one of them, my comment does not apply to you.

    I didn’t mention your name.

  154. Proud Cybernat says:

    Purely for the 77th Brigade lurkers and shit stirrers.

    Nicola Sturgeon to make major announcement on Monday. Just thought the 77th might like the heads up–that we know stuff before you lot do.

    Or am I just messing with your heads?

  155. K1 says:

    Ah fair enough Rock, but Lochside had specifically cited in his post: ‘KI’, which I took to mean K1. You reposted a section of his post which had my ‘KI’ tag, as part of his ‘acolyte’ insult toward anyone who he perceived as supporting Mr Peffers on Wings? And so I was kinda included as ‘sycophant’ who may ‘viciously’ attack others of a differing view to Mr Peffers, in your response to him.

    Which is why I asked you what I did Rock.

    I don’t know whether I am ‘one of them’ or not, I don’t even know what ‘one of them’ means. I still don’t understand why he cited me specifically in that context, and asked him earlier in the thread (wee sma’ hours) in response to his attack on Mr Peffers. I made a cheeky comment when Robert was on earlier today, to Lochside, which he has taken as more grist for his mill and now has outrightly ‘attacked’ me on baseless grounds as far I’m aware, as he has not furnished me with any proof of what he claims in his insult toward me.

    Thanks for the response.

  156. Rock says:


    “during the second Welsh Referendum a few years ago about expanding powers,all people who had lived in Wales under 4 years, including students, and all Holiday Home owners were denied the vote.”

    Very good point.

  157. yesindyref2 says:

    Dunno. There are trolls, and there are unoionists trying their best to discredit valuable posters, and perhaps who knows there are agents paid to do the job, it’s not impossible. But the effect is the same – they’re often trying to discredit valuable psoters.

    So I think what to look at is who is targetted. And the irony of this is that they therefore give away what THEY are targetting, and what they’re afraid of. So there’s good solid counter-intelligence to be had just looking at what they do, and evaluating it.

    So for instance they target Robert. Now, there are legitimate reasons to argue with him, people genuinely have a different view of history. So it’s good to decide if something’s a genuine debate, or an attempt to discredit. But what it does do is highlight the importance ofr his postings about the constitution, the Act of Union, sovereignty, and the nature of the United Kingdon itself. “They” see it as a threat, therefore it’s important.

    Another one is news itself. The MSM don’t carry some stories, but Nana posts links. I saw her being targetted, and she doesn’t really take part in the discussions to give a valid reason to argue, therefore the other side see her as a valable resource to Wings and lurkers, that they want to get rid of. Therefore her links are important.

    And so on it goes – look at what the “enemy” concentrates on, and that has imporatnace – though of course it could be a bluff! I don’t like to boost myself, but myself and at least two of the regular posters (highly upvoted) in the Herald during Indy Ref 1 who did solid research to refute spin in the articles and “independent thinktanks” were similarly targetted, and it’s starting again now.

    Apply the techniquess of counter-intelligence, and we learn more about them, than any damage they can do to us.

  158. Bob MACK says:

    We have enemies enough on our plate here and abroad. Let’s work together guys and gals.

  159. Bob MACK says:

    Disturbing to hear that UK passport holders who have dual nationality are being refused transit from S America on any flight which touches down even to re fuel on American soil.
    This is utterly unacceptable.

  160. Stoker says:

    To those of you with disappearing comments:

    You may want to check back over the thread because my post to ‘Juan P’ on 28 January, 2017 at 3:56 pm has now appeared.

  161. Hermodr says:

    Another absolutely insane day then.

    Shout it from the rooftops. Brexit = Fascism, Trump, Erdogan, War, Racism, Violence, Hatred, Xenophobia

    There is another way.

    By the way, thanks to Liz for the Business for Scotland rec – read a bunch of stuff there the past 2 days and will be binge-reading the rest shortly. I know everyone else probably knows that stuff/site already but there’s always new faces looking for resources!

  162. ian m says:

    The people who are allowed a vote will get their vote.
    The Independence vote will likely be bolstered by all the folk who have lost their jobs after Westminster love bombed the tax inspectors and the like
    My biggest concern is the mail in vote it can not go South of the border to be counted and there should be GPS trackers on the vans to make sure they are not switched on the way to wherever they go to be counted.
    Forms should all be the same, we know how many we need to print based upon 2014.
    We should have EU monitors (not likely I know)
    The mail in vote put us in a huge hole
    Some areas were strong for Indy and yet the mail in vote was the complete opposite
    This is Indyref 2 the dirty tricks brigade will stop at nothing
    Paranoia rant over ……for now

  163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    K1 @ 19:03:

    What is up wi folk over the last day or so on Wings?

    Ach, I know. It’s a mixture. Some is suspicious yoon interference, some is just people getting a bit too personal over not much really. (No individual dig intended, btw, my friend.) Maybe even just the gloomy weather.

    I think with Brexit looming we are all realising that tectonic plates are shifting down below without very much sign appearing on the surface, yet we are also acutely aware that after this period of eerie calm there’s a real earthquake on the way. So we’re getting jumpy, like horses approaching the starting gate.

    We need to stay calm, stay focussed on the issues, and try to be kind to each other despite sometimes having genuinely differing views about ways and means if not ends. People are watching!

  164. Thepnr says:

    This is Rocks complete contribution to the political discussion on Wings today. Constant negativity and hectoring of others. I’m hounding you Rock because you are a cancer on Wings that cannot be allowed to spread unchallenged.

    These are typical of “his” overall contribution btl on Wings not just of today but everyday. Never have I a saw a post of his that could be described as informative, not even so much as a link only attacks either on the English voter, the National or other posters.

    When you read them all at once then I think you get a better flavour of the type of person behind these posts. His goal is to poison the thread by any means and primarily to spread division. I think he does this for kicks more than anything else. Sad bastard.

    Rock says:
    28 January, 2017 at 7:08 pm

    “if it is a fact that the majority of English born people living in Scotland voted against independence then why would you as an independence supporter object to being excluded from voting if it give us a better chance of winning,”

    Very good point.

    Rock says:
    28 January, 2017 at 7:14 pm

    “Rock? In your response tae Lochside, you suggested a ‘vicious attack’ by his ‘sycophants’ would be forth coming. Can you furnish me with the evidence that supports your claim specifically related to ‘KI’”

    My reference was to a certain poster’s sycophants.

    If you are not one of them, my comment does not apply to you.

    I didn’t mention your name.

    Rock says:
    28 January, 2017 at 7:32 pm

    “during the second Welsh Referendum a few years ago about expanding powers,all people who had lived in Wales under 4 years, including students, and all Holiday Home owners were denied the vote.”

    Very good point.

  165. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi yesindyref2 at 7:35 pm.

    You typed,
    “So for instance they target Robert. Now, there are legitimate reasons to argue with him, people genuinely have a different view of history. So it’s good to decide if something’s a genuine debate, or an attempt to discredit.”

    I was having a blether with a workmate a couple of days ago and, as these blethers developed, something popped into my head. That was, I reckon, through reading the btl comments at Wings, particularly from Robert Peffers and others (e.g. Wull) more Scots have learned about our history in the past three years, than Scots learned in the previous 300 years.

    As you point out, sometimes there is a debate about actual historical events but these tend to be carried out in a courteous manner.

    On the other hand, there are commenters who don’t actually bring anything concrete to the table of debate but merely decry what they have read. And, of course, when you provide a link that proves that their argument is mince, they ignore it, because it makes them uncomfortably numb. Their typing finger, onnyhoo…

  166. Brian Powell says:


    The Herald campaigned for Scotland to remain shackled to England.

  167. Gary45% says:

    Bob Mack@7.58
    Israel=America=Insular Paranoia.

  168. ben madigan says:

    Coming late as usual with reading the comments but I just wanted to add a link to what louis.b.argyll said at 2:02 pm about being

    “In a propaganda ‘war’

    Worth thinking about how this type of targeted propaganda can be overcome because we can expect this type of thing if Indyref2 gets off the ground.

    Remember if targeted propaganda is used – it can be overturned. A method can be devised

  169. Undeadshaun says:

    Brian Powell says:
    28 January, 2017 at 8:12 pm

    The Herald campaigned for Scotland to remain shackled to England.


    Relevance to my post that EU nationals feel safer in Scotland than ruk?

  170. One_Scot says:

    In all my years, I cannot recall a feeling of the world being more fucked up than I feel it is today.

  171. Lenny Hartley says:

    Bob Mack re transiting the USA it will be because uniquely in my experience the USA is the only country in the world that makes you as a transit passenger go through immigration and customs
    With your bags and then have to check in your bags and go through immigration again to get back on the plane you just got off. Of it was once when I flew via the states from South Pacific to Scotland

  172. sassenach says:

    @Thepnr 6-08pm

    Thanks, I did understand about the effects of ‘commentators’ on here who are out to mislead, disrupt, etc – it was whether it was possible for ‘higher’ powers to actually have an ability to block a site (permanently or temporarily) that was concerning me, particularly in view of any impending (?) referendum.

    My knowledge of computer/internet technicalities is non-existent, I should confess!

  173. sassenach says:

    Good to see Theresa attempting to not answer questions about Trump’s ban on certain refugees at the Turkish press conference – doing a PMQs strategy (which we see each week)!!!

    Other world leaders and even the UN seem to be having a say but the new British ‘poodle’ cannot bring herself to criticise.

    Good, more people seeing her for exactly what she is – can only help more Scots to ‘see the light’!! Well done, hen.

  174. galamcennalath says:

    Lenny Hartley says:

    USA is the only country in the world that makes you as a transit passenger go through immigration and customs

    We had that. Stamped passport in, then out. Finger prints taken. Eyes scanned. We were in transit through LA. Only on the ground for a short time.

    My understanding is that such behaviour is against international treaties etc..

  175. Thepnr says:

    The irony, Trump the son of two immigrants blames immigrants for Americas woes. He’s already opened a can of worms only a week into his presidency. I don’t like the look of this at all.

  176. Dek says:

    One-Scot at 8 21:

    Reminds me of the belief in the inevitability of mutual assured destruction when the government advice was to unscrew the doors and hide in the triangle you could make with the wall. Where we are now is worse . The lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

  177. Paula Rose says:

    Is it OK if I still vote in a referendum about my country that I live in – or is there another rule now?

  178. Dr Jim says:

    For the folks getting themselves in a tiz about voting or some countries being banned and not others or just some people in general not behaving to the norm

    Just remember WE didnae cause any of what’s going on right now in the world or here in whichever part of these islands we live

    Corrupt bankers did it and corrupt governments let them away with it and then made us pay for it
    But you’ll notice none of them got any worse off none of them lost their jobs and if they did they got big golden handshakes to go with it for being failures while once again WE paid for it

    Now we’ve got to pay for bloody Brexit because England was lied to, even if the FM does really well and softens it up for us it’s still going to cost us and not the Bastirts that caused it

    I’ve got no doubt in my mind we’re going to win our Independence this time but that’s not going to be a walk in the park either because of the aforementioned Bastirts

    So for the folk who are girning away at each other just remember we the people didnae dae anything, it wiz thame and their lying and scheming and turning one against the other for their own gain

    They’re the Bastirts, no us, don’t allow them to clutter up the issue

  179. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Yesterday I met a retired English colleague who was a strong no voter in 2014. He even bought a house in Berwick on Tweed as a fall back such was his concern.

    However, because of brexit he has now told me he would vote for Scottish independence as he has lost all faith in the UK and doesn’t like what has happened to England over recent years.

    So he joins lots of my English friends that fully support Indy much to the bemusement of their English relatives.

    Strikes me that there are many English and EU folk who could be converted to Indy supporters now. Much easier to convert than diehard Scottish yoons!

  180. t42 says:

    Thepnr says:
    The irony, Trump the son of two immigrants blames immigrants for Americas woes.

    trumps patents were *legal* immigrants.
    trump is against *illegal* immigration.

    easy mistake to make.

  181. Smallaxe says:

    K1: And all true Wingers!

    Go placidly and avoid the Vexatious, division is their objective

    Peace Always

  182. Glamaig says:

    Meanwhile, in the real world outside the fantasy bubble of UK media, Die Welt and Le Monde have not a single mention of Maggie May and arent too happy about Trump.

    The Irish Times do give her a mention though its not good
    ‘As the US and UK pursue unrealistic trade goals, Ireland needs to take a different path’

  183. Brian Powell says:


    The straightforward irony of the Herald carrying a story of EU nationals feeling safe in Scotland when it campaigned to stick us with the UK England where they don’t feel safe.

  184. Thepnr says:


    That is the irony, it is Trump who now makes the law. He wouldn’t be a billionaire living in America if his parents hadn’t went to the States.

    Free movement of people throughout the world would be good for everyone on Earth. Instead immigration is portrayed as a threat, for the life of me I can’t figure out a reason other than the creation of a bogeyman, that would be the immigrant, this deflects attention from the real problems in society in Western countries.

    That is the transfer of wealth from poor to rich and the need to wage war to carry out this goal. It has gone on for centuries, probably the crusades are the first recorded, more recently the Jews and now it’s Muslims again.

    Our real enemy is those exploiting ignorance and using us to win their battles and further enrich them. We are the mugs and are there simply to be exploited for our ignorance.

    They want to keep ignorance as a way of life. I don’t.

  185. Meg merrilees says:

    Welcome back Smallaxe – mission accomplished?

  186. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Hoss Mackintosh @ 21:10,

    Another piece of cheery anecdotal evidence, Hoss, and very welcome too. The cold reality of dawn is beginning to shine on some former noes at least, despite ongoing efforts by the Unionist media to stir up “unity”. And it’s only the beginning of Brexit still.

    Next step is to get them to convert other like-minded voters too. Converts like these can carry conviction with such people that long-term indy diehards maybe can’t.

    This is actually better than the old advice “if everyone makes one conversion…” because it could turn into a chain reaction of conversions, just like a tweet going viral.

    Your other points are well taken too. It’s only Scottish Labour, LapDem and Tory tribalists who are mired in double-think of their own making.

  187. K1 says:

    Trump’s executive orders will extend to banning ‘legal’ migrants too.

    Easy mistake to make:

    ‘On Friday, Trump signed an executive order implementing what he called “new vetting measures, to keep radical Islamic terrorists out”. The order included a 120-day suspension of the US Refugee Admissions Program; the indefinite suspension of the admission of any refugees from Syria; the capping of refugee numbers admitted in 2017 at 50,000; and to severely limit immigration from Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Syria, Libya, Somalia and Yemen, all Muslim-majority countries.

    According to draft policies leaked to the media, Trump is also preparing executive actions to limit legal immigration and to judge immigration applications on the likelihood that a prospective immigrant would draw in any way on US social welfare programs.

    In a final draft immigration policy, Trump would strip immigrants who arrived in the US as children, known as Dreamers, of protections against deportation extended to them by Obama. The reversal could directly affect 1.2 million American residents who may have little or no knowledge of their origin country.’

  188. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Paula Rose 9.07 We been through this so many times on Wings instigated by the usual suspects U know its a divide & disrupt technique & wont get any traction on Wings.

  189. @ Ronniw Anderson Yes Ronnie I am fully aware of 77 brigade on here (more than 3 lol), on fb, at rallies, within SNP and other indy organisations. I also know the ones who are withing the organisations, if you were trying to identify one, he or she will be the last person you’d suspect, they will be expert at hiding in plain sight.

    I didn’t know about redfern barracks though but being an ex-serviceman I fully understand the type of watch system they will use.

  190. Soutron says:

    @t42 what about the legal migrants with green cards? Doesn’t seem too keen on them either.

  191. K1 says:

    😉 Smallaxe

  192. Conan the Librarian says:

    I don’t usually wear a tinfoil hat. Yet…

    There are arguments on here – that’s natural – if you wish to post online, you are naturally contentious.


    I’ve been blocked from two supposed independence sites within 24 hours. Quite used to being blocked from the unionist media, that’s a given.

    But not oors.

    Trump rules OK…

  193. Ruby says:

    sassenach says:
    28 January, 2017 at 8:34 pm
    @Thepnr 6-08pm

    Thanks, I did understand about the effects of ‘commentators’ on here who are out to mislead, disrupt, etc – it was whether it was possible for ‘higher’ powers to actually have an ability to block a site (permanently or temporarily) that was concerning me, particularly in view of any impending (?) referendum.

    My knowledge of computer/internet technicalities is non-existent, I should confess!

    Ruby replies.

    I’ve come across the following message:

    ‘Access to the websites listed on this page has been blocked pursuant to orders of the high court.

    More information can be found at

    I’ve also seen sites which are blocked by certain ISPs. Virgin was one.

    The sites in question were file sharing sites which are blocked in UK but not in other countries.

    These sites were probably doing something illegal perhaps something like ‘breach of copyright.’

    I suppose if a site was seen as a risk to national security it could also be blocked.

  194. Lenny Hartley says:

    Good to see you back Smallaxe

    Can’t believe I actually laughed at a Laura Kuenssberg piece today, poor lass is getting pelters from Some facsists in England 🙂

    Thepnr – guess we are all going to have to get used to increased state trolling, it will seem to be in their eyes effective as it’s got a few folk upset and annoyed, we need to grow thicker skins
    I will say one thing about English born new Scots , during Indy ref 1 , many a time there were more English born folk at planning and other organisational meetings I attended than native born Scots. As far as I am concerned anybody and I mean anybody trying to push a blood and soil agenda should be blocked from the site, they are either Unionist Trolls in the pay of the state or otherwise, facsists or idiots who are as thick as mince and do not bring anything to the debate.

  195. Meg merrilees says:

    Look out – Scotland might be getting dragged into Trump controversy by proxy!

    Clues so far: Trump says he is mother was Scottish, he loves Scotland; TM gives him a Scottish traditional gift; now this…
    “Why trump’s golf courses in Scotland are just like Carrier’s plant in Mexico”

  196. Tackety Beets says:

    Capella ,

    Update on Bob Dylan , I think it was Nethybridge ? Think he purchased “Aultmore House ” or Estate cannot remember for sure.

    Strangely depending on your music taste .
    The most popular pub song around Scotland these last few years , certainly from Perth northwards is Dylan’s “Wagon Wheel” ….Made famous by Nathan Carter and of course Darius Rucker .
    In the style of both “Country & Western”

    I know plagiarised from the Blues Brs ! Smiley fing !

  197. Thepnr says:

    Just for info for anyone interested. The 77th Brigade are based at Denison Barracks in Hermitage, Berkshire West of Reading.

    They are reportedly under-strength failing to meet recruiting targets.

  198. Glamaig says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    28 January, 2017 at 9:44 pm

    ‘many a time there were more English born folk at planning and other organisational meetings I attended than native born Scots.’

    I dropped into a Yes hub a couple of days before Indyref1 to pick up some Wee Blue Books, there was half dozen people there, and none of them were Scots. Looking forward to next time when we’ll have EU citizens with us too 🙂

  199. One_Scot says:

    Turns out that one of Mays Conservative MPs is banned from entering the US under Trumps new policy. You could not make it up.

  200. robertknight says:

    Again, the ONLY people in Scotland who shouldn’t be voting in Indy Ref 2 are service personnel here temporarily by accident of posting; and who in the event of a Yes vote would undoubtedly expect their next posting to be outwith Scotland.

    All service personnel born in Scotland should be entitled to vote, irrespective of their location on polling day. So too students who completed their secondary education in Scotland but are enrolled in a higher education establishment elsewhere.

    As for the Welsh example, I recon those from outside Scotland who choose to study here we should be trying to encourage to stay. Excluding them from the vote would surely be counter productive to that end, no?

  201. Artyhetty says:


    Hmm, do we trust such folks as M. Dailly, before they prove themselves as being partisan to Scottish independence?

    I have my doubts btw. Ever the suspicious cynic.

    Chris Cairns, can we have a Monday image to cheer us all up pretty please!

  202. Legerwood says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    28 January, 2017 at 9:44 pm
    “”Good to see you back Smallaxe

    Can’t believe I actually laughed at a Laura Kuenssberg piece today, poor lass is getting pelters from Some facsists in England ?“”


    I had the feeling when I saw the press conference and Ms Keunsberg’s question that it was a set up. Trump came up with a, for him, witty response but on past performance we know his neurones don’t fire that fast.

    Also the areas covered by the question were ones people wanted May to raise but probably didn’t do this was one way of doing it via a compliant BBC.

    And finally all the fuss and publicity has been about Ms Keunsberg asking the question. Anyone remember his answer?

  203. heedtracker says:

    Heil Trump, the Scotland botherer,

    How come Germany’s not gone Heil Trump mental like tory BBC led media, with his granddad German. We have seriously creepy media here in teamGB.

  204. One_Scot says:

    May must be lying in bed tonight thinking how to ‘F’ did I get in this mess.

  205. Meindevon says:

    Speaking as a Scot down here with no vote ( I believe quite rightly ) I don’t think you can change the criteria for a second Indy. It would look desperate and if we won it would be fodder for an attack by Unionists. They would call it rigging and we would be the bad guys doing the ‘selecting of voters’.

    Stick with it. Scotland is inclusive, keep it that way. Concentrate on converting those No voters from wherever and whatever political persuasion that Indy is the only way forward. As someone above said they are easier than the Union till I die sorts.

    It might not be too hard if the last 24 hours in the land of May and Trump is anything to go by.

  206. heedtracker says:

    Artyhetty says:
    28 January, 2017 at 10:31 pm

    Hmm, do we trust such folks as M. Dailly, before they prove themselves as being partisan to Scottish independence?

    It is a biblical, nae damascene conversion.

    Why worry, it’s later than we think. Cant imagine Teresa Mayhem’s not going to fire her exciting new Tridents Bettertogether with Heil Trump.

  207. yesindyref2 says:

    The Herald is quite curious, and as a regular poster there I’m treading a little warily these days. Its below the line comments do the job for Indy supporters anyway, as the standard of unionist posting is appalling, brutal in fact.

    It came out for a NO on the basis of the Vow and more powers for Scotland. followed the Smith Commission but didn’t really criticise when it didn’t go quite far enough. But it came out for a Remain vote in June, and after the Leave vote ran a very good series of articles about the downsides of the Leave vote.

    It’s also followed Sturgeon’s compromise, generally I think in a suppportive way. It has of course reported Mundell – but then I think Mundell makes a fool of himself and the Herald just gives him a platform to do so. There were several articles about Sewel and its demise. Remember that the Smith report promised Sewel would be statutory.

    Just the other day it ran a very curious article about its history and the times it’s been through and reported as a very momentous anniversary or something – 235 years or some odd number – no nice round figures like 250. Strange. Perhaps it’s looking back and wondering where to go. It would certainly want to survive through into an exciting Independent Scotland times.

    It (Newsquest) also has acquired a lot of local titles including mine, and they do run syndicated articles, with a long-term plan. Richard Walker said one title was on the verge of going for Independence, but we haven’t even got Indy Ref 2 yet, it’s too soon to jump. With its group of papers it could make a significant impact, even if just to run impartial news and not hide it.

    Looking at the Scotsman it has some very fair articles, and also reports news not seen elsewhere. Perhaps there’s some competition which jumps first.

    Interesting times.

  208. Bob MACK says:

    Sir Mo Farrah banned.

    Stratford On Avon Tory Mp banned (zahawi)

    Getting very weird.

  209. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ledger wood @ 10:37 yeah U probably are right, I was trying to figure out why she asked those questions.

    Btw demo outside jfk live on the inter web now , people with green cards and visa’s being detained illegally due to their religion or race.

    I would not be surprised if California seeks it’s own destiny , they need to get 500,000 names on a petition for July and if succesful will be able to hold a referendum.

  210. Joemcg says:

    Hey PNR and the rest of the WOS clique. it’s Joe or is it Rock? Posting from deepest darkest Reading, Yeah, we are one and the same person working for the 77th brigade! What a joke you lot are! As I said before it’s not YOUR forum or anyone else’s. It’s an OPEN forum, comprende? I’m entitled to an opinion. I have not been abusive or anti English in any of my posts. We are talking about our nationhood.Its not a normal vote. EU nationals were excluded from the EU vote so why can we not have restrictions? Like it or not hundreds of thousands of incomers voted against our independence. I would never in a million years vote on another countries right to self determination so why should a different nationality get that right to vote on mine? It’s morally unacceptable in my opinion. Go ahead the self righteous, hell mend ye. No restrictions at all in place no yes vote… EVER. It’s not going to happen. I’m no troll/77th brigade/undercover unionist and I certainly don’t think I’m “thick” definition of a troll-someone you don’t agree with. Defeat beckons again mark my words. Some sort of residency rule at the very least needs to be in place in my opinion for us to have any chance. Bare minimum.

  211. Ken500 says:

    US citizens go straight through – smaller queue at US airports. Foreign tourists, holiday makers, business folk etc, all Visa holders have to go In a longer queue. They get photographed and asked more questions. question. Especially darker foreigner looking folk with non English names. There is extra Interrogated. That happens in the UK . People with EU passport go through quicker and more easily. People from overseas are checked more rigiously.

    With Brexit non EU citizens will have to go in a longer line and be checked more vigiously. They will not go straight through. Have to have Visas etc. More red tape. More expense and bureaucracy. It will be more difficult for people from Britain to live, study, work, get healthcare and travel though the EU/Europe. Unless Scotland votes for Independence in the EU. More difficult for transporting goods and trade. Have a negative effect on business. Affecting and lowering living standards.

    With the illegal wars being stopped (Trump). There will be less migrants coming into Europe.

    Migrant numbers coming to the UK will fall. Brexit will be for nothing. England/Wales will be in ‘spendid isolation’ for no purpose but to destroy the economic advantages and trade with the EU and elsewhere.

    Mexico has one of the highest homicide rates in the world. Some parts are no go areas for travellers. Travellers are advised not to go there. The Police can be corrupt and kill innocent protestors. Innocent petiole can be ‘disappeared’. Drug/gun smuggling into the US is rife. Many parts of the US have major drug problems. Leading to addiction, homelessness, violence and
    Death. Many people overdose on illegal drugs. Crack cocaine etc smuggled into the US. Gun crime is rife, because of the Gun Laws and the availability of illegal guns. Imported.

    (Approx) In the US there are 30,000 homicides recorded every year on average. 26,000 committed by guns. I.e US citizens killing each other.

    (Approx) 30,000 – 300Million population = 1 per – 10,000 killed

    In the UK (approx) 600 murdered a year. 60Million pop. = 1 per – 100,000 killed.

    (If the zero’s are right. Doubled checked)

    Millions of innocent people killed and maimed illegally and discriminatory overseas. Against International Law and ruining the world.

  212. Ken500 says:

    Zahawi? Tory politician supports Brexit. Corrupt criminal. Did not register £25Million of offshore interest in Westminster register, as required by Law.

    How will the UK supported/sponsored (2/3 in the world) tax havens fare with Brexit. Assets which are supposed to be declared to HMRC. HMRC not fit for purpose and protecting major tax dodgers.

  213. Col says:

    This time round we really need to get to the heart of each unions pro’s and cons. Mere colony status which doesn’t even allow us to control our own bloody broadcasting, takes every penny, keeps our account information top secret from us, we get tory governance for 16 years we didn’t vote for and the list goes on.

  214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    robertknight @ 22:16,

    I’m not sure if temporarily-resident service(wo)men would qualify ordinarily, depending on how “temporary” their posting was, I suppose. I’m not sure it matters very much in practice, though, since areas around military bases such as Lossiemouth tend anyway to host a greater proportion of Unionists. (Eg. families and businesses dependent on DoD business.)

    I believe that students enrolled in higher education outwith Scotland, but who still have a family home in Scotland, are legitimately entitled to remain on the Scottish electoral roll, and are entitled to vote in at least some elections, which included indyref1.

    People who can forsee that they might be in that situation next year (say!) might be well advised to check that situation out beforehand.

    More problematic is the position of rUK students enrolled at a Scottish institution whose family domicile is not here. They may also be entitled to register in Scotland if they so wish. Those of a determined Unionist bent, exposed to ignorant popular prejudice and MSM propaganda, and with no ongoing personal committment to Scotland, merely a theoretical one to the Union, may be the most awkward of categories.

  215. Robert Louis says:

    Hmm. Time to start boycotting the USA and all they produce. TRUMP only understands one thing, money. So, we simply need to hit USA wallets.

    Avoid US airlines, avoid going on holiday to the USA, Make a POINT of visiting Mexico (some great holiday resorts) and Canada.

    USA, the land of the free*

    * Except muslims, refugees, mexicans, lesbian/gay/transgender people, people with ‘foreigny sounding’ names, and people who Trump personally doesn’t like very much.

  216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joemcg@ 22:54:

    Defeat beckons again mark my words.

    Ugh. Whatever you may be Joe, it’s a faintheart not a braveheart.

    Can’t you believe that it just needs a good case put over well and FUD efficiently rebutted, rather than miserable diddly-squit goalpost-moving…?

  217. Robert Louis says:

    Just got to say, I can’t believe the number of people feeding trolls over the last couple of days. Wise up.

  218. heedtracker says:

    “EU nationals were excluded from the EU vote so why can we not have restrictions? ”

    Joe, they are excluded because they are NOT British citizens. You sound frustrated about stuff like who gets to vote, but its really this simple. English voters in Scotland are exact same nationality as Scots, British, UK and exact same rights etc. People from the EU mainland have a complete different legal citizenship/personality here obviously.

    Is why.

    UK gov had the legal capacity to not allow any EU immigrant the vote. And its clear why too. So there is no law to prevent any UK citizen from voting anywhere in the UK.

    Is why too.

    Even after independence, UK citizenship is not scrapped. White paper explains it but if you want to keep your UK citizenship, after our independence day, you will.

    Now shut up about it:D

  219. yesindyref2 says:

    This is worth looking at, Aileen McHarg putting Tom Gordon and thence David Torrance firmly and thoroughly in their place:

    Love it.

  220. Stoker says:

    yesindyref2 wrote, Re; The Herald:

    “It came out for a NO on the basis of the Vow and more powers for Scotland. followed the Smith Commission but didn’t really criticise when it didn’t go quite far enough.”

    It also stated that if “substantial powers” were not forthcoming it would reconsider its position. Twenty-eight months later we’re still waiting on the big announcement, which will never materialise. The Scotsman and The Herald are BUM rags drowning in a sea of Unionist pig swill. Their demise cannot come quick enough for me.

    yesindyref2 also wrote:
    “Richard Walker said one title was on the verge of going for Independence, but we haven’t even got Indy Ref 2 yet, it’s too soon to jump.”

    What title would that be then? And why is it too soon to jump? I would have thought the sooner you commit to your cause the more you will be able to achieve.
    James Caithness wrote on 28 January, 2017 at 9:37 pm:
    (RE: 77 Brigade)

    “..if you were trying to identify one, he or she will be the last person you’d suspect, they will be expert at hiding in plain sight.”

    Aye! And if “Rock” and “Joe” were operatives i’d sack the pair of them because they’re shite at it. My money’s on The Rev!
    Goodnight troops!
    Psst, i’ll be sure to check under the bed just in case 😉

  221. robertknight says:

    Robert J S @11:21

    I see where you’re coming from, but I’m considering All students from elsewhere, not just the rUK ones. As we’re still in the EU for the time being, we’d have to have a completely inclusive or exclusive policy concerning students studying in but who are not from Scotland.

    Personally, I’d opt to give them all a vote on the basis that it’s fair, and the nature of Pro-EU/indy-Scotland versus Pro-UK/Brexit may bring more round to our way of thinking.

  222. Gary45% says:

    I fink you mean losseemaaf next to Eljin going by the new “local” accents. I have no problem with anyone coming to live anywhere, but if people are so blinkered in their love for a brainwashed bigoted union, and will keep the UK together at whatever cost, even ignoring factual evidence, whilst disregarding the wellbeing of a country not a colony/northern-shire to which they have been posted, = NO VOTE.
    Minimum 5 year stay, S on the tax return/ benefit and no second home vote. OR
    The Welsh idea works for me, including the S.

  223. Thepnr says:


    That’s it Joe, just keep going with the negativity. That’ll win Indyref2 for sure.

  224. Joemcg says:

    Robert-I’m scared to mention the E word on here because you get told to fuck off. It’s the elephant in the room. There is NO convincing them. Asides from my nocturnal 77th brigade duties I must have engaged with hundreds of that nationality in 2014 campaigning for yes (so you understand why I go apeshit if bams on here question my allegiance) it does not matter your personal stories that you know such and such voted yes and I applaud the English who voted for independence, believe me they are British first. The amount on our side was few and far between. Maybe I’m defeatist but there’s a reason. I’ve seen it first hand. We CANNOT win them over and their numbers are BIG. I don’t want it to happen again.

  225. Thepnr says:

    “I applaud the English who voted for independence, believe me they are British first.”

    Are you drunk Joe?

  226. Joemcg says:

    Aye just keep calling me a troll or an operative dafties. What did YOU do in 2014??

  227. Ken500 says:

    It is debatable which rag will go out the door quicker. The Herald of the Scotsman. Decreasing sales. Decreasing advertising revenues. Not supporting INDY. Or keeping up with the changing times and opinions. Newsquest (the National) is doing better supporting INDY. It has increased profits. Taken over other regional titles. Kilmarnock Times? Other titles/magazines elsewhere in the UK. Increased profits with non political stuff. Increased profits. (With assets from take overs increasing investments – increased turnover). £2Million more profits on increased turnover and more titles. Turnover £9Million? Up from £7Million. Still planning to pay off 25 staff. Not great for ‘journalists’ putting themselves out of a job with nonsense no one will buy. Punters prefer the internet to exchange news and information.

    Newsquest must have a smaller turnover in the UK than JP making losses. JP has £300Million of reconstructed debt. Always having to extend loans and repayments to try and cover it. The massive loans and the increasing debt.

    Newquest a US based company makes it profits selling material, books and literature for private education companies, worldwide. JP prints political and government literature. NE England based it supports the Labour Party. Prints their literature and propaganda. That is why the Scotsman does not support SNP or Independence. It will lead to it’s demise in Scotland. Out of touch and biased with a separate political agenda. The Editor and other staff will lose their jobs.

    The Scotsman (JP) is going over a cliff. With £300Million of reconstructed debts and lowering profits. With assets not enough to cover the losses. Rothchild advisers have been drafted in again, to give advice. At the request of the largest shareholder company (10%?) Debt holding bonds due to be repaid in 2019. The pound losing value will not help. For possible overseas investment funds.

    There are calls for the JP Chairman (Sir?) to resign. He gets a msssive salary and benefits. Not up to the job. Looks like he will be going soon. More staff are still being paid off. Ill researched ignorant copy. Regurgitated nonsense. The public will not buy it.

  228. yesindyref2 says:

    The Herald group also has s1jobs, s1homes, maybe others I forget. It made a profit I believe, but is still cutting staff and costs – making itself lean to survive.

  229. Thepnr says:

    I delivered leaflets through doors in Dundee for Labour for Independence.

    I organised the first Wings night our and the second in total in Dundee, putting some Wingers up in my house,

    I paid £500 from my own pocket to take a bus picking up from all of Angus to Glasgow for another Wings night.

    I took care of the distribution of 12,000 WBB’s throughout Dundee and Angus including to Yes Hubs.

    I traveled personally to Cupar to collect another 2500 WBB’s in my car that they hadn’t got rid of to make sure there were put into peoples hands.

    I organised stalls for Wings on a weekend at the Arbroath Seafest home of 45 Commando and comprising of many expat Unionists again at my own expense.

    What did YOU do in 2014?

  230. TJenny says:

    Thepnr honey, Wingers all know your selfless indy track record, so no worries , but, you know that if you’re still playing with them after midnight, you’ll have to take them walkies in the morning. 😉

  231. robertknight says:


    If the only way to win was to deny someone the vote purely because you suspect they might not vote the way you want then frankly I’d rather lose.

    Those who have chosen to live here by making a conscious decision to do so, (as opposed to being told by their CO that they’re off to chilly-Jocko-land for 2 years but not to worry ’cause they’ll be back in God’s country thereafter), have every right to be involved; whether they’re originally from Frankfurt am Main or Stockton on Tees, it matters not.

  232. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    robertknight @ 23:46,

    Hah, EU students. You have outflanked me there, Robert! Could it be that EU student “temps”, if eligible, might just nullify the rUK ones?! =laugh=

  233. robertknight says:

    Robert J S @ 12:20

    The thought never crossed my mind… coughs.

  234. Ken500 says:

    @ Hey Joe. Hey Dude. Don’t let it get into your heart or soul. It will get better, better, better. Da da da daday da.

    Go to bed and stop it. You will feel better in the morning hopefully and less embarrassed. Just a friendly word. Stop digging the hole. It is less stressful. Listen to some muzic. Relax and chill out. There will be enough support to get over the line when the time comes. Or there can just be another one. How good is that.

    Don’t panic. Just relax and watch the show. One thing there has never been more entertaining ridiculous times like these in living memory. Scotland is on the right path without offending too many people and gaining support where it matters.

    INDY2 is there to be won, it is just a question of timing. It has to be called. People in Scotland can’t go on like this any more. Banging away at a brick wall of Westminster Unionist intransigence. When they will not even open the door or keep it ajar for opportunities. It is too frustrating and annoying. Like watching an out of touch masquerade.

    People have lost touch and control over their lives. Scaring people. It will be regained and retained. Sure as night follows day. The wheels just keep on turning. Proud Scotland just keeps on yearning. Rolling rolling rolling on the rivers (and blissful mountains and seas). Spectactular scenery. The most beautiful in the world. There is more good than bad in the world. It will prevail.

  235. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –



    Rest of ye’s?

    Wise-up FFS and stop bickering like auld fishwives. The trolls are easily identifiable, so just ignore them, eh?

    We’re now beyond prattle about Indy2 – before we get anywhere near it we’ll have to deal with proper big hairy fascists.

    The characters who appeared in ‘George’ Square on Sep 19th were organised, probably paid, but they were mere striplings – the full-grown versions will be preparing, right now, for Indy2, and they’re every bit as serious about it all as we are. Sooner or later, we will face them.

    A wee expression of solidarity wouldn’t go amiss right now – a good way of doing it is to mend some of the damage done to each other. The ‘regulars’ who owe apologies to one another know who they are, and they’ll surely find a way of doing it.

    There’s simply too much shit going on right now for there to be cracks in the WOS fraternity. Some may see it as a ‘clique’, but many of us see it as a unique togetherness.

    Please, please, a’body, get it sorted, right here, eh?

  236. robertknight says:

    Don’t fret Ian, whilst having the ability to persuade, one must also retain the wisdom to be persuaded. This is a broad Kirk after all.

  237. Ken500 says:

    Newsquest and the Herald newspaper are different entities. Newsquest profits mainly come from major printing sales world wide. They have made a profit in the UK but could be making losses at the Herald. That is why they are continuing cutting jobs there. Newsquest had a major take over recently. An investment. They bought another titles group. ? The information is on the internet. They was a link posted (Thanks Nana?) on Wings. They could be cutting jobs. Within the acquired titles group they just bought, because of an overlap of staff. No longer required to product the inter merged merchandising extended group. Reconstructing.

    This thread is getting too long. Unmanageable.

  238. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 00:38:

    …stop bickering like auld fishwives.

    Sexist! Ageist!!

    Only joking. =grin= You are of course right on the button, Ian.

    And well said, Ken500, too. So good that it could even be set to music. I can just hear it now… =laugh=

  239. Meg merrilees says:

    Statement from New York Taxi Drivers Union who tonight took a stance against Trump’s ban on Muslims coming into America by boycotting JFK airport for an hour from 6-7pm tonight.

    We’re a’ Jock Tamson’s bairns. We cannot allow hate and bigotry to grow.

  240. Cactus says:

    Greetings from Fuerteventura.

    I miss HOME.


    I really love.

  241. Cherry says:

    Hi folks I’m not usually prone to jumping to conclusions…but…
    Early on today I googled something about Mike Dailly. There was no information on him coming back from the darkside! well not until I put in the words, joins SNP, and it wasn’t showing until I put the letter P in, I thought how odd. Now here’s another odd thing…three stories down it had this.. Wings over Scotland/ the less-deserving pro-independence website…usually that would be referring to a story by that title. When clicked it just goes straight to the rev’s home page. I’ve tried it all sorts of ways and it keeps coming up! Anyone got any clue why on a google search for someone, that Wings comes up and it’s telling me it’s a less deserving site! why? good grief I’m a conspiracy loon lol!

  242. Cactus says:

    I do.

  243. Thepnr says:

    I see a Wings ‘clique’ as being friends that just happened to have met through Wings. Everybody was welcome to come along on any of these nights.

    There is no ‘clique’ simply people who know each other better and have become friends. They are pro Independence and happened to have met through Wings. That’s yer mysterious ‘clique’.

    It’s easier to have a laugh or a joke online with someone you’ve met. If I really believed that I was part of a ‘clique’ then I’d be off.

    Friendships does not equate to cliques other than in those eyes that fail to get their own way and want to blame others for those failures. Wings is a forum for those that wish to discuss the way forward to Independence. For those that wish to share knowledge and provide links to sources that will improve that knowledge. It shouldn’t and mustn’t be a forum for grievance.

    That’ll do for me, I’ll be going nowhere until the job is done.

  244. Cactus says:

    Ian Brotherhood..

    Top bro.

    Love u dude 🙂

  245. Cactus says:

    Thepnr, bddt, xsticks, ronnie a, rev stu et al..

    You know where it’s at.

    Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow in this pretty place.

    You’re SO cool.

  246. Ken500 says:

    A student from elsewhere a relationship with beloved family member. (left wing – would be Labour supporter) Despised Thatcher etc. . Voted NO in the Indy Ref (so did many mates) Ignorant of Scotland’s past. Exoressed resentment of the SNP – Indy. They resent the £9000 a year debt. Less years of study but recognised it as Westminster fault and unfair. Became a bit of a banter.

    Stayed on in Scotland. Still the friendly banter. A Nicola mug Christmas gift. Cheeky gesture. Alex would have to attend the wedding or it doesn’t happen i.e. banter. Joke. Not going to happen.

    Voted SNP at Holyrood election and always would. A few conversations. They claim it will now be a YES vote in any other Indy Ref. Regret the previously NO to Indy position. Support EU. A few conversations, explanations and facts about the situation. It get’s results. Now they advocate INDY YES to other people. Everyone gain.

    A residential qualification could suffice for those passing through from elsewhere. The students from elsewhere will have to save themselves. Scotland can’t do it. Not enough numbers. The decision could be decided on the Polled (Poles?)

  247. Ken500 says:

    Ace detective Ventura. Crazy man.

    Too much heat. In the kitchen. Spoils the broth.

    What happened to Meths? Joyce should No.

  248. crazycat says:

    @ Cherry

    I also wonder if the Mike Dailly conversion is a spoof – it seems so unlikely, though he did comment post-Brexit result in a way that means it’s not totally crazy.

    As for the “less-deserving website”: when Bella Caledonia was (briefly) in difficulties, Douglas Fraser suggested this might be because we were all giving our money to L-DWs, by which it was assumed he meant Wings. So his phrase was adopted as a tagline (or whatever the technical term is) on the home page.

  249. Thepnr says:


    I’m pretty sure that Mike Dailly’s conversion is a genuine one. I hope a lot more follow suit, he has saw that an Indy Scotland is the right way. Might have taken a wee while but who cares?

    It took me a wee while as well, I also one time believed in Labour.

  250. t42 says:

    in mexico illegal immigrants are treated as sub human by the mexican justice system-thrown in the worst jails with terrible conditions and treated very badly by guards and other inmates.

    o/t Bahrain populist uprising taking place for democracy. people protesting peacefully. the Bahrain plain clothes police and the british security services being put to use to stop the democracy movement. saudi arabia urges bahrain to execute more protesters to try to halt arab spring 2.0 saudi arabia begins building a wall along 600 miles of iraqi border to protect against arab spring 2.0

  251. crazycat says:

    @ Thepnr

    I certainly hope it’s genuine, but when I looked at the tweets yesterday, there were some slightly confusing ones (from other people) apparently quoting him being hostile to the SNP, with the implication that this was very very recent. Could just have been someone stirring.

  252. TJenny says:

    Re Mike Daily – he was welcomed into SNP in a tweet from Nicola yesterday and he tweeted that he would explain his reasons for joining in a column, I think in today’s DR. Haven’t read it to verify. Apparently he moved to Yes after Brexit vote. Very welcome he is too and may bring more over with him. We can but hope.

  253. Capella says:

    @ Tackety Beets – you’re right, it was Nethybridge. Thanks for update. Dylan was a fan of Robert Burns and said his greatest influence was “Red Red Rose”.

    Burns’ song “My Heart’s in the Highlands” was the influence for Dylan’s “Highlands”. It also inspired the Estonian composer Arvo Part in his ethereal interpretation.:

    He gets around does Rabbie.

  254. Thepnr says:

    Hi TJenny nice to see you posting again.

  255. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @TJenny –



    Hope you’re hale an herty.

    See you soon I hope.

  256. TJenny says:

    Thepnr – I, aye I’m always here, just don’t post much but felt a wee bit of humour needed injecting to ease the flow, as it were re ‘playmates’. 😉

    Also re the Mike Daily thing – he had oodles of welcoming tweets from SNPers yesterday and only a few nasty yoon ones, which seemed odd as I’d have thought they’d have reacted much worse – maybe they’re all having a change of heart! We have to hope so.

    Re the discord on here of late, I think, in spite of all the upheavals happening around us, the fact that we’re still in a kind of limbo re indy2, is making us all a wee bit carnaptious.

    See, now I’ve started…. 😉

  257. TJenny says:

    HI IanB – wish the weather was warmer for the travelling to a wee Wings soiree – feels like forever since we all met up. Sigh.

    Wonder what Nicola is going to say on Monday that was alluded to up thread. Excited, ooh, I get the shivers. 😉

  258. Capella says:

    Long threads often get fractious. Stu will be along soon with a new post. I suppose that Chris Cairns is having his umpteenth holiday? 🙂

  259. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not sure if you got where Not Convinced was coming from @ 4:26pm. I thought NC was simply supporting the principles that underpin individual liberty and equality. A balance has to be struck between the particular and the univesal, when defining barriers to social inclusion. Otherwise….

    ” Maybe you think an institutionalised racism at the creation of a new state won’t result in normalising racism, or that other countries won’t react to it.” 🙂

  260. yesindyref2 says:



    Or Not

    Checking out and caught this comment on their thread about the UKSC judgement:

    Ronald Grünebaum

    It was pretty obvious that rights cannot be removed from citizens without an act of parliament. But the Scottish issue remains. It may be legally correct that the Scottish parliament does not get a vote on Brexit but devolution means rights given to the Scots. Rights that are now directly affected by decisions made in London. One has to wonder whether the United Kondom will survive this.

    Posted on 1/24/17 | 12:55 PM CET

  261. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Tackety Beets at 9:46 pm

    You typed,
    “The most popular pub song around Scotland these last few years , certainly from Perth northwards is Dylan’s “Wagon Wheel”

    You may find this enjoyable…

  262. K1 says:

    From Washington Post, how the world is responding to Trump’s executive ban:

    Nicola’s tweet get a wee mention too in response to Justin Trudeau’s:

  263. TJenny says:

    yesindyref2 – Agree with the thoughts in that quote and love the typo, or was it? United Kondom. 🙂 (’cause they are truly f**ked?)

  264. Big Phil says:

    we all know the score , but honestly we are winning ,take yer yoons and yer trolls and all they sprout ,its constant snp bad.. we are not Just snp, we are for a man wanting to be oor own country, can i laydown a gauntlet to you 77 brigade guys and say this , I, like you swore allegiance to the queen but i didnt say id be forever in your debt , open yer wee eyes and see what yer allegiance is destroying. At least one of you know that its wrong. Man up and let US (Scotland) save us all.

  265. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:26:

    One has to wonder whether the United Kondom will survive this.


    It took me two reads to notice it. (I assume your quote is accurate, even though it’s getting insanely late.)

    There are some fairly obvious rude follow-ups to that one about splits, etc., etc., but in deference to community values, I shall desist…

  266. yesindyref2 says:

    The threads are quite quiet, less than a dozen comments I guess. But it’s good to see the Brexiteers posting, as they doing their normal stuff and putting the EU posters even more off the UK, but more onto Scotland. This on a thread a little about Scotland:

    So, little Miss Kranky hold your referendum and be damned with you

    Might go down well on the Express, but elsewhere? The unionists in alliance with the Brexiteers really are doing our job for us. Time to sit back and enjoy? Mmm, well …

  267. Big Phil says:

    All i can say is watch oot for splitters , cos they’ll try and try, im just glad we have the HEED.

  268. TJenny says:

    yesindyref2 – aye, I noticed, in amongst the endless plaudits for Nicola from twitter peeps from all over and even some Tories, you had the odd wee playground yoon nasty – which only served to show how out of step and irrelevant they are becoming. They literally can’t help themselves. Shame.

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    I think it probably is, his English is excellent, but in another post just one or two words that aren’t quite right. No way would he mis-spell Kingdom as “Kondom”. It’s also the German for condom 🙂

  270. Cherry says:

    @Crazycat that’s the reason thank you.
    I was really feeling a bit suspicious of the quote, but you have a better memory than I.
    As for the Mike Dailly jump to SNP. It happened over 24hrs, read his twitter page, right up to the 26th he was batting for the yoonion! A true eureka moment right enough!

  271. Big Phil says:

    Nicola ,wherever you may be may yer arse be planted on a velvet cushion.

  272. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s probably colloquial rather than high German by the way. In Hoch Deutsch it would probably be the translation of “Tubular rubber birth causing prevention device” and be a das rather than a die or der. But I digress.

  273. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, itchy trigger finger. I should also have stressed that if policy is to be effective, the particular must also be accommodated alongside with the universal.

    Your actions need a positive ‘Negritude quotient’ to enable effective targeting and ensure against unintended discrimination. That’s if you are looking for an open and inclusive society, of course.

    There needs to be some barriers to voter eligibility but not ones defined through blood. I had an English granny, you know. 😉

  274. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nice to see you posting again. Perhaps in person some time soon?

  275. TJenny says:

    CBB – yeah, let’s hope so, ’cause it’s been waay too long.

  276. TJenny says:

    CBB – yeah let’s hope it’s soon, ’cause it’s been waay too long. (I posted this before but lost in t’ether)

  277. TJenny says:

    Mind you there’s the PQ protest at end of March? Although I am very much a fair weather venturer.

  278. CameronB Brodie says:

    “….if policy is to be effective”

    OK, getting a bit up myself. Not everyone in Britain will get a vote on Scottish independence, so there are already barriers to inclusion in place. The principle is accepted. Eligibility criteria need to reflect both the spirit of inclusion and the distinctness of the Scottish context. Next.

  279. CameonB Brodie says:

    I’d like to get to PQ but I’ll have to see what I’m up to at the time. An east of Scotland WOS gathering is about due but I’m not sure if the usual suspects are planning anything.

  280. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 3.28
    Well mibbi it could be argued that way but…Try this one on?
    It’s pretty much my position and I really haven’t read anything yet on this thread to shift it.

    If you accept that the current system is supposed to be based on voting for a representative in the Constituency in which you live,and no where else regardless of (shall we say) personal history.
    Then no one is being left out everyone in the relevent Constituency has a vote,just like everywhere else on this Island!

    Then if you accept that it is the Constituency in which you live that is voting to have their elected representatives end the current Treaty obligations,and work from Edinburgh,then I would have thought that everyone in the affected Constituency would need to have a vote wouldn’t be in dispute!

    As for any EU voter’s much the same as above but in addition the Treaty obligations that allows them as residents to vote,are not the ones we are voting about and would still be valid.

  281. yesindyref2 says:

    God, I thought the Express was bad. I just read the comments below the line on this article in the Herald “Anger as Glasgow vet is stranded after being caught up in Trump immigrant ban”.

    I wish I’d stayed away.

  282. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    I suppose that’s another way of looking at things. Everyone normally resident should get a say, is basically where I’m coming from. I wouldn’t have considered myself politically active and admit I’m not particularly clued up on the technical realities of the current franchise. I suppose I’m just a social theory geek. 🙂

    It does appear counter intuitive but a universal approach isn’t necessarily non-discriminatory. It can lead to a hidden exclusion of minority cultures.

    What I’m also trying to say is that calling for voting restrictions is not necessarily supporting “blood and soil” nationalism.

  283. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    As theory geeks go, I know I could do better. I’m also pretty sure my teachers had me sussed at primary school. 🙂

  284. yesindyref2 says:

    Some heart-warming news about that, the Women for Independence gofundme raised the money (£2,600) in 33 minutes. It’s up to £4,000 now and excess goes to the Scottish Refugee Council.

    There’s some disgusting people around, and there’s some lovely people around.

    I normally stay away from these things, no wonder.

  285. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 4.55
    Well actually calling for restrictions, I would argue runs the risk of being described that way,but exploring if it is a reasonable position I would agree with you is not.

    I am also very aware that the position that I described in my last post,is the line that has been punted at us for centuries,that one vote is in Westminster as equal to any other…(EVEL excepted ofcourse for this discussion) and we know how unfair that is seen and paradoxically how fair it is also seen.

    But as we I think can agree the problem is with the Treaty of the Union itself.

    I suppose I am taking the view that I don’t see any problems or issues with Constituency voting,as it is currently organised.
    But Only at Constituency level…After that I do have a few problems…
    But we are where we are and for the purposes of our Referendum franchise I think it is the most fair that we can be.
    And it’s on that basis I have the position that I do.

    I also think that to add legitimacy to the vote it has to be the same franchise as last time,but I know that’s not what you were talking about…Just being clear with you on my thinking.

    Anyhoo…To call for restrictions, IMHO is having a conclusion and then finding reasons to have already reached it.
    Which for me is a completely different thing from floating the idear that we should look at the pros and cons of the issues.
    And that’s what leaves the position open to a Blood and Soil interpretation of what is being said.
    Although not forgetting that their has to be at least some who would promote that kind of thinking.

  286. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 6.10
    Oh you’re better than you think you are!
    It’s the kid’s that think outside the box that the teachers can do nothing with, cause the systems no designed for them.
    Even scares some of them.

  287. gerry parker says:

    “It’s the kid’s that think outside the box that the teachers can do nothing with, cause the systems no designed for them.
    Even scares some of them.”

    And so it should, look at what the wee ginger dug turned out like.


  288. Robert Louis says:

    Meanwhile, the witch of Westminster, Theresa May, has announced the UK is going to sell 100 million pounds worth of fighter jets to the dictator president of Turkey. Yip, selling fighter jets to the man who has closed down ALL free media and journalism in Turkey, arbitrarily jailed journalists and opposition politicians, and has the most appalling human rights record.

    That is the shambolic mess the UK has become, begging for scrap from dictators – which they will laughingly call ‘a trade deal’.

    Oh, and then we have racist and white supremacist American idiot, Trump, coming to see auld Queen lizzie of England.

    Can we please have our freaking independence referendum ASAP, Nicola, so that Scotland can get away from these sicko’s in Westminster.

  289. Breeks says:

    Just spent an hour reading below the line comments about all things Scottish. Lol. Maybe we should give England a say in Scottish Independence.

    But seriously, there are two staunch pillars of perceived truth which serve as a platform for all the hate;

    By far, the biggest and most enduring perception is that Scotland is subsidised by the UK. We need bold and graphic evidence of the truth. Not GERS, but the whole picture, spanning back decades, before the oil. John Jappy gives testimony that Scotland was habitually in surplus long before oil was discovered. We need graphic, year by year, visible evidence of what has happened since. This issue is staple mince and tatties for the hate squad, but it’s an enduring opinion which many believe credible. It isn’t just important for the truth to be finally known in London, of equal importance is that the whole of the UK realises it has been lied to about Scotland for decades.

    The second pillar of hatespeak is the 2014 result. We should respect democracy. The altered circumstances brought about by Brexit, the exposure of the Vow as a false inducement which was subsequently reneged upon, and the EU remain vote of Scotland may well be legitimate arguments, but they are cutting little ice with the haters.

    If you work on the crude rule of thumb theory that the BritNat haters say what the Britnat voters are thinking, then we need an image, a graphic, a short statement which rebuts these arguments in roughly 1.5 seconds; the average attention span of a BTL knuckle dragger.

    Full marks to Wee Ginger Dug; We’ll respect the 2014 result when the Unionists respect the vow they made to win it. We need an awful lot more of the same.

    It isn’t good enough to do what GERS does, we need the whole spectrum of Scotland’s economic performance included. If we cannot know figures, we must choose a figure and back it up with sources. But it has to be “You Look – You get the message” caliber of information.

    If this is all shown to be a lie, then it’s a very, very, big lie. Or, if there is truth to it, then let it stand as a shocking indictment of how Scotland in surplus in the 1970’s before oil has been crippled by decades of ruthless exploitation from Westminster and left in penury.

    People should not have to go looking for this information. It needs to be given such profile as to to be unavoidable and undeniable.

  290. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 8.20
    While yes I totally agree that the information you highlighted needs to be “good to go”,so that we are ready to counter the usual shit they will pedal.

    The bit I don’t get is why do you say that London need to know this stuff….Those in London that matter, already know,and,those that don’t already know I would think don’t matter.
    And regardless of who knows what they are never going to acknowledge it to their population any way.
    Only example over time and history will demonstrate the truth of the matters between Scotland and Westminster.

    Also, again,why does the rest of thee UK need to know???
    What has it to do with them?

  291. ScottieDog says:

    “It isn’t good enough to do what GERS does, we need the whole spectrum of Scotland’s economic performance included. ”

    Entirely agree. For starters the finances of a sovereign country issuIng its own currency are ENTIRELY different to that of a region (.effectively what we are in financial terms). We are more akin to a US state (with less powers). A state is dependent on 1 – what it can raise in taxes and 2 – what revenue it can bring in via exports. It needs to balance the books. We in Scotland however don’t need even control the revenue raised from what we produce and are in control of only a portion of taxes.

    A sovereign currency issuIng government like the UK DOES NOT rely on taxes to fund it. It can issue bonds at whatever rate it likes and as the UK has done over the last few years it can instruct its central bank to buy up these bonds. In other words there is never a solvency issue.

    The two are entirely different but are treated the same to suit the neoliberal agenda. In all honesty though, the above is poorly understood by most mainstream economists and just about all politicians.

    Yes we certainly would have been generating many trade surpluses over the past 4 decades which would have reduced the need for the govt to issue debt. It’s important however to point out that sovereign debt isn’t really an issue these days and hasn’t been since money was debased from gold in 1971 to suit the Americans. The main issue is the amount of private debt due to banks creating far too much credit money. It sits at around £5 trillion.

    The idea of the ‘need to reduce the deficit’ (for a currency issuIng country) demonstrates a lack of understanding of government finances.

    To try to better explain the above, I throughly recommend the following video. It is very good and I believe essential viewing for all of us…

  292. Nana says:


    NHS spending per person will be cut next year, ministers confirm

  293. Breeks says:

    @ Liz…

    Because that’s where the propaganda is coming from, and a degree of that propaganda is passive misrepresentation when ignorant statements are allowed to pass unchallenged, then resonate as being true.
    Yes, there is wilful and deliberate propaganda, but there is also casual ignorance serving the same ends. I want well meaning English folks to look at the crap which the likes of Neil Oliver spouts and realise for themselves that he’s talking out his arse.

    We need our arguments and rebuttals to be one liners that are instantly understood.

    I hear you ScottieDog, but what I’m getting at is quick and punchy content. I remember in the firm True Grit, there’s a brilliant quote about Maddie and her lawyer, J. Noble Dagget. I think it’s the horse trader who declares “She draws that name like a gun”. Brilliant quote. We need an answer to Scotland’s economic performance which we can “draw like a gun”, because that’s how Unionists draw out this notion of poverty and subsidy.

    That goes for our economy, YES result in 2014, the McCrone Report, and currency. I would have added Europe on the list, but I think the Unionist penny is dropping that all things EU are positives for Scotland, so they don’t want to raise the subject any more.

  294. Ken500 says:

    May at it again. Selling £100Million in Arms to Turkey. To repress the Turkish people and threaten others in the region. Turkey were supporting and dealing Oil with ISIS. Until Putin intervened. It will lead to the Turkish people being repress and more trouble in the region May still trouble causing. It could affect the Cyprus re-unification plans.

    When will they ever learn? Flying around the world on taxpayers money causing even more trouble. With the sycophant ‘journalists ‘. Anything for a tax free jolly. The BBC can’t even show No 1 Andy Murray but show other matches. The ‘Cameron’ plane costing £400millions cost to convert and operate. Using airforce helicopters and jets. Instead of normal flights.

    Trying to evade and avoid the trouble at home. Killing and maiming innocent people. Vulnerable people in the UK are being starved because of sanctions. £Millions for the interfering Tory Royals. No austerity for them. Climate change rhetoric from the biggest consumers in the world. Lecturing others. Slim down be quiet or bow out. Bogoff. No good offers. Not two for the price of one.

    Bojo grandfather was a Turkish. ‘Journalist’. Murdered by Turkish nationals for opposing Independence. Yet Johnston with chequered past is Foreign Secrrtary. A post gained from EU advantages. His father was an EU diplomat in Brussels. Turkey wants to join the EU, Johnston claims to want to leave it and all the advantages.

    Brexit could cause ban on people and goods travel. The need for different and more complicated travel arrangements. Less easy travel routes for people and goods. A taste of what is to come. The Tories are the only asoociation to ban renewables and support Nuclear.

  295. manandboy says:

    Still no statement from the Prime Minister, Theresa May,
    on the national debt of £1.6 trillion, or, Scotland’s oil.
    As is said, I won’t hold my breath.

    C’mon Theresa tell us a lttle bit about the two subjects which your PR dept. in Downing St. has banned.

  296. Ken500 says:

    Don’t watch Neil Oliver. There are better things to do. Better history to explore. Read a book or internet.

  297. Ken500 says:

    It’s nice and sunny today. Smile at every one you meet. They might smile back.

  298. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 9.24
    Thanks for your reply, I do see what you are saying and am not entirely disagreeing.

    …And I know you have put up with a lot of shit already so really just an observation. OK… I hope….

    I could see the point of addressing the Westminster led narritive,had we not been going into Indy Ref 2 so quickly.
    But we’re not.

    The rest of the UK don’t have a vote,and it seems to me,the only ones who care enough to pay any attention are those who regard Scotland as a possession and/or want us to fail either to achieve Independence or at being Independent.

    That’s why I can’t see any value in putting any energy into,what would amount to convincing them of our arguments.
    Also to engage with them invites debate,which we both know is going to be minipulated horrendously.

    I would much rather have any debate with actual voter’s and be telling, Politicians,celebs, the MSM ect this is Scottish business they should mind their own,and,we will let them know soon enough what we decided.
    We let them interfere far to much the last time.
    Jist sayin…

  299. manandboy says:

    I’d like to see an opinion poll based on this question

    Which do you prefer:-

    a) staying in the UK, but with a £25,000 share of the £1.8trillion National Debt (on Sunday January 29,2017)


    b)living in an independent Scotland, with NO National Debt

  300. galamcennalath says:

    manandboy says:

    living in an independent Scotland, with NO National Debt

    Ditch the debt! They ran it up, they can keep it!

  301. galamcennalath says:

    Nicola chairs the Joint Ministerial Committee in Cardiff tomorrow.

    I expect, should the meeting turn into another fiasco with no progress with taking “…proposals from the devolved administrations seriously ” we will some sparks fly afterwards.

  302. Dr Jim says:

    I was speaking to president Shcultz, we’re good chums actually
    says David Coburn, and president Shcultz says No eh No, back of the queue, join the Euro, eh horror mayhem catastrophe doom eh president Schultz eh chums Scotland shite chums

    I think that’s almost word for word

  303. Hamish100 says:

    BBC big Questions just now. My count would suggest that the Tories all we Glasgow based on the number of Tories apparently living on Glasgow. Must have been bussed in from Bearsden or did they all go to Hutchie ?

  304. louis.b.argyll says:

    Ken500 says: 9:58 am
    It’s nice and sunny today. Smile at every one you meet. They might smile back.

    Thanks Ken. Get out more, you deserve it. As they say across the Atlantic, have a nice day in the land of the free…

  305. Hamish100 says:

    Sorry prescriptive text- Tories wil win Glasgow based on the BBC audience

  306. Ken500 says:

    The BBC are now trying to damage the Independence movement by promoting the Greens. The Green nonsensical, unpopular policies are damaging the Independence movement. They are scaring people off. It puts people off from voting for Independence. Why can’t they pipe down until Independence is acheived. They collude with Unionists at every opportunity, renege on their policies and waste £Millions/Billion of public money, which could be better spent on essential services. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

    The Trams are priced too low against other forms of transport. The wealthiest City in Scotland has subsidised, undersubscribed travel costs. Bus passes which can only be use at off peak times can’t be used on the trams. Passenger nos are under expectations The Trams should be priced at least £10 freturn. The bus is £12 return and accepts bus passes. Other people in rural Scotland have to use car travel because there is not an adequate bus service.

  307. galamcennalath says:

    BBC audiences. We know they are never representative of Scottish locations.

    I suspect they might be representative of UK averages. The BBC thinking that’s OK.

    I did hear that was what they did for the infamous pre EURef Dundee audience. They chose half far-right and also half pro Brexit. Obviously these overlap considerably.

    In a Scottish context that is a very unrepresentative audience. It might be OK at a UK level, but if the people aren’t from across the UK but are fairly local then that means a very weird selection of individuals by the standards of that area.

    A Dundee or Glasgow audience should be 55% pro-indy, 30% pro-Brexit, 20% far right. Obviously some overlap always with people’s views.

    The problem for the BBC is they don’t want to ever show Scottish distinctive views getting the upper hand. They want Scotland to look like England with its 55% far right vote ((Con+UKIP).

  308. Big Jock says:

    The 1\3 of yes voters also being anti EU. Is another work of fiction being promoted by Brit press. It’s clutching at straws and trying to unsettle us.

    The headline should read 70% of yes supporters voted remain. They are bricking it. I know several anti EU yes voters and it makes no difference to how they will actually vote.

  309. Ken500 says:

    Sometimes health issues prevent people getting out freely. Keep on keeping on. Loads of folk on the internet. Plenty of issues and company with like minded people. It keeps people sane.

    Thanks Rev Stu and Nana for loads of information. Thanks a Billions. Nothing can replace what you do. In the interests of freedom. YES.

    Lovely day. Great future. The sun keeps people happy. Sunny more equal countries are happier and cohesive.

  310. Dr Jim says:

    News just in from our Irish cousins who know a thing or two about the EU coz they’re in it and they’re quite friendly towards us Scottish folks

    Angela Merkel to make a statement on Scotlands position

    Now those are big words eh and I’m guessing those big words mean it’s going to be a statement that’s going to be friendly towards Scotland so I’ll look forward to all the usual suspects having a go at rubbishing Mrs Merkels opinion

    In other news from Ireland support for the SNP and Scottish Independence is through the roof I’m reliably informed by my big brother who’s there at this very moment having a wee Burns celebration week
    This support is coming from both sides of the Irish border which neither side wants changed and wont stand for it being so

  311. louis.b.argyll says:

    Ken, I love history, having visited most of the Orkney sites and being immersed in Northern European culture, by being aware of our historical ‘achievements’.

    I no longer watch BBC history documentaries myself, telling my children that ‘presenters’ are not always giving an open interpretation.

  312. Ken500 says:

    Most people love to travel. Travel and education broaden the mind. Health makes it possible. Equal fair Trade. Wealth is spread more evenly and more wisely.

  313. louis.b.argyll says:

    Another jarring BBC ‘thing’ – Michael Burke famed for an expose on famine in Africa..
    ..NOW presenting Royal we can see what privilege used to afford.

  314. ScottieDog says:

    Yes I know it’s very difficult and it’s all about framing. The deficut framing comes from thatcher who compared the economy with a household. Nice, punchy, and completely wrong.

    We could start by labelling ourselves as the ‘drag on the UK that London is desperate to keep’
    Maybe counter-productive, I don’t know.

  315. Dr Jim says:

    Constitutionally no such country as Scotland says David Mundell
    it was extinguished with the Act of Union and is now a subordinate constituent part of the UK

    And what he didn’t say is: Which you will never have a say in because there are not enough of you and never will be so get stuffed we rule, Yaaay Engerland!

  316. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 28 January, 2017 at 5:36 pm:

    “@ James Caithness Pmsl 3 from 77th brigands. They’re squads of them in Redford barracks 4 hrs oan 4hrs aff , ah know we have more than 3 . They are covering all the Indy sites, watch out for the agent provocateurs at the rallies & demonstrations also.”

    Aye! Ronnie. If I remember correctly, when the news was leaked the 77th was to be reformed to fight the, “Terrorists”, I posted that as there were already loads of UK & USA Security Services waging Cyberwar against the Terrorists that this new lot would be along soon to visit Wings and every other indyref web based site.

    Not to mention YouTube, Facebook and their twits would be all over Twitter too.

    It was fairly obvious what they were being set up to defend Westminster a.k.a. England from.

    Anyway, I’m sure they already know we were onto them even before the new Cyber, “Worriers”, had got their kitbags unpacked at their new postings.

    I expect the powers that be will start sorting the chaff from the wheat and the interlopers on Indy blogs will get harder to spot. Let’s face it sitting at a computer on a shift is bound to look like a good easy number to squaddies than square bashing or doing jankers for misdeeds.

    It will end up like every other UK armed forces idea with the Squaddies back on the parade square and officers, recruited from the likes at Eaton & Harrow at the computers.

    The trouble for the army is that these upper class Hooray Henry’s are far easier to spot as they speak and think a different language from normal folks.

  317. Bob MACK says:

    Well, it rather ties in with what Willie Rennie was just saying on Politics Scotland.

    He says the Unionists will force another election at Holyrood if they do not get what they want in the budget. Rather makes me think the Greens have given them some type of reassurance.

    This story in the Sunday Herald seems to have been written with this assumption of an upcoming election in mind. Part of the Unionist grand strategy to disempower the SNP prior to Brexit?

    Make your own mind up. I know.

  318. Robert Peffers says:

    @bugsbunny says: 28 January, 2017 at 5:37 pm:

    “Robert, I thought that was only happening to me. That post above I wrote about the “Bengali Famine” disappeared 3 times before it was finally posted in it’s present form. I thought it was something I was doing?”

    I have been re-doing my home wired net setup. I have a very good router set-up program that reports anything attacking the system. This includes DoS, (Denial of Service), attacks. Now these are not usually made to individual users but to take down big national or international companies.

    However, the web speed for wings had dropped to a crawl while other sites were coming in at more normal rates. It might be innocent but then again it might not.

  319. ScottieDog says:

    Also I think for any NO voters out there you know, we need to make them understand what the UK economy currently is and you don’t even have to mention independence…

    Some useful stuff here and very easy to understand…

  320. woosie says:

    If brexit ( engxit) hadn’t sealed independence for Scotland, surely the PM sucking up to Trump, just before he out-hitlered the nazis, will steer many soft no’s to the light. She’s just manacled uk to the most dangerous loony on earth, and wants to drag Scotland with her.

    I’m sure now that the EU will encourage Scots to go indy, and offer a deal. They’ll want to make a big statement against leaving the EU for other member states. I believe Spain will be won over by Merkel into not vetoing our membership. The falling value of the gbp will badly affect their tourism industry, and I’m sure there are large numbers of Scots who holiday there every year.

  321. galamcennalath says:

    woosie says:

    If brexit ( engxit) hadn’t sealed independence for Scotland, surely …

    I agree with all your points.

    Sub-fascists in England sooking up to real fascists in the US will help the Indy cause.

    Then the EU. I expect they will take the line that Scotland needs to have the opportunity to decide on its future. How much will they help? If they do nothing other than say Scotland is welcome and staying in will be simple, then that removes a lot of scaremongering potential from the Yoon. They could go further and offer assistance in setting up the instruments of state.

    They might well do the same in Ireland.

    One thing for sure, if we say we want to stay Europeans, they will take our side before Little Englanders.

    The counter argument is the EU doesn’t interfere in the internal affairs of members. The UK is trying to not be a member. The UK is a unique ‘constitutional grouping’ of countries. One of those countries wants to stay in the EU. IMO that is a totally different circumstance.

  322. Robert Peffers says:

    @sassenach says: 28 January, 2017 at 5:48 pm:

    “Can anyone put my mind at rest on this?”

    Not really. I would think that their main attempts would be along the lines of such as, “sensibledave”, attempting to divert the Wings topics away from other things but Wingers are not daft and will only give dave style diversions house room when things are slack or to introduce their own diversions to dave.

    Then there will be those who would attempt to be agents provocateur, but they too would not be too difficult to identify even if they deny that they are.

    The thing is that DoS, (Denial of Service), kind of things are not really difficult to do, and they have even briefly taken down such as Microsoft.

    However, they are also not too hard to identify and what kind of message would the UK (a.k.a English), Government be sending to Scotland, Europe and the World if they were caught illegally shutting down legitimate political opposition websites?

    The SNP are, after all, the legitimate legal Government of the UK/English Government’s regional devolved parliament of Scotland. So they may have had a go just to see if they could do so. They are, after all, setting up a new Army brigade to be, “Cyber-soldiers”, (TM). of the United Kingdom of England, (as so recently defined by the Supreme Court that the Government of the UK (a.k.a. England), set up for just such a purpose).

  323. Robert Peffers says:

    @Garrion says: 28 January, 2017 at 5:59 pm:

    ” … I’m not a tinfoil hat wearer, but it seems that the game is well and truly afoot.
    Lets get to it.”

    It may be unconnected but …

    Aberdeen City Council has just launched an urgent investigation into how its official website was attacked by hackers.

    A group calling itself, “Team System DZ”, briefly took over the Aberdeen City Council’s homepage for over 2.5 hrs on Saturday evening. During the attack the webpage carried the message “Security Stupidity”.

    This would also seem to be a DoS thingy but this could also be a Red Herring to divert attention from other activities.

    Most DoS attacks do not really involve proper hacking or proper hackers but what we used to call Script Kiddy attacks. The attackers are not really doing the hacking as they are using pre-made scripts that the real hackers have prepared.

  324. Breeks says:

    I would love to ask that John Curtice what impact the BBC and MSM’s latent prejudice against an Independent Scotland, and a properly respected EU, had on the respective results of both referenda, to what extent the electorate was led by propaganda, and whether Scotland shouldn’t be entitled to have a third referendum/plebiscite WITHOUT the BBC and printed media interfering by seeking to promote their preferred narrative and engineer the result they desired.

    The more of these type of programs I see, where the debate is live, the less informed I feel about having watched it. Its a very shallow and fickle way to arrive at any kind of conclusion, which invariably fails to get to the heart of the issue.

    I would much prefer to see Panorama type documentaries which are objective and apolitical in their makeup, but present the various issues dispassionately and objectively. Unfortunately, I don’t consider the BBC fit to make any such program, I wonder whether something can be done along similar lines to London Calling; a program which is open and above board about its prejudices but objective, measured and referenced in its content.

  325. gus1940 says:

    What has happened to yon sensible fellow?

    I’m worried about Dave – Not.

  326. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob MACK says: 28 January, 2017 at 7:55 pm:

    “We have enemies enough on our plate here and abroad. Let’s work together guys and gals.”

    That’s all very fine, Bob, but there has indeed been a steadily increasingly strident stream of anti-SNP/SG criticism for quite a while now.

    It may indeed be innocent Indy supporters who actually do believe they know better than Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP party and the current Scottish Government who have done so much to get the Indy movement to where it stands today.

    There is absolutely no doubt there is a concerted move here on Wings to run down the SNP. Most of it quite unsupported by any real evidence. For example – what evidence is there that the SNP/SG stance on anything is holding back the advance of support for independence?

    There isn’t any such evidence because all signs are that support is still growing. We had a claim the other day that seemed, at least to me, to be that the SNP/SG were at fault for the YES movement’s poor quality website and organisation.

    So why attack me for pointing out that the SNP, (as either the party or the Scottish Government), were NOT the YES Movement – at most they could be said to be part of the YES movement.

    It is a matter of fact that Yes Scotland’s chief executive was Blair Jenkins, and Dennis Canavan was the chair of its advisory board. Stephen Noon, (an employee and policy writer for the SNP), was a Yes Scotland strategist.

    Other than Noon, neither the SNP or SG had anything else to do with the YES Movement except as individual YES supporters and activists.

    It was thus rather disingenuous to blame the SNP for any perceived failings of the YES movement.

    So just what is hoped to be gained by Wings commenters by apparently aggressive criticism of the SNP? Now note that I often point out that any SNP member can attend ANY branch meeting in any constituency and take part in debate and vote on matters of policy and so on.

    That means if a member has a gripe or a suggestion the place to make either is at a branch meeting where their one vote is as good as any other member including such as Nicola Sturgeon.

    It is also bringing the SNP’s business into a public forum to criticise them on a blog open to the public where, this very day, we are commenting upon infiltration by UK agents.

    It would not be the first time I have disagreed with the party, or with even chosen candidates or already elected members. But I did it from within the party. Why provide ammunition to the opponents of independence? (Unless, of course), that is your main aim.

    Now also ask yourself this, why am I under such bitter attacks if these people are NOT agents of the opposition to indy? If they are genuine indy supporters they should at least consider that they are acting against the only real chance Scotland has of regaining independence.

    The time to urge the SNP/SG to change tack is when their present course of action is losing the battle. It may indeed be slow but, believe this long term supporter, it is a bloody site faster now than it was ,not too many years, ago and it is still upwards as yet.

  327. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 28 January, 2017 at 8:04 pm:

    ” … People are watching.

    Aye! Robert, and that is the nail that needs hit on the head.

    If these detractors of the SN/SG or YES movement do have real cause for concern then why are they NOT voicing them with the SNP/SG or YES movement and NOT on an open forum where we are presently concerned that there are trolls, Yoons and actual paid English Government agents on Wings?

    Take your complains to the SG, SNP YES Movement and nt voice them in public. I’m certain that not only will you be made welcome, be listened to and get answers but you will not be damaging Scotland’s chances of winning her freedom.

    I’ll put that another way – Do not act against Scotland’s best interests on an, open to the opposition, blog.

  328. Robert Peffers says:

    @sassenach says: 28 January, 2017 at 8:34 pm:

    ” … it was whether it was possible for ‘higher’ powers to actually have an ability to block a site (permanently or temporarily)”

    Yes, sassenach, but I would point out that it is not just, “Higher Powers”, but damned near anybody can do it.

    Which is the point I made about what we used to call, (and probably still is), “Script Kiddies”.

    The basic action is to flood the site, like as if there were many thousands of Wingers all posting at once.

    The thing is that there are little programs already out there on the internet that do just that. In some cases these, “scripts”, use multiple computers that have been previously infected by Back Door/Trojan Horse stuff.

    Here’s a wee cut & paste :-

    A denial-of-service (DoS) attack involves an attempt to disrupt the normal functioning of a website or web service. In a typical DoS attack, the attacker will overload a site’s server with requests for access far above the capacity of the site, meaning that legitimate requests cannot be processed. Other examples include: disrupting service to a specific person or system, flooding a network with traffic to prevent legitimate traffic from flowing, preventing a person from accessing a particular service and disrupting the connection between two specific machines, thereby interrupting a service. An e-mail bomb is another type of DoS attack wherein a large number of spam emails are sent in order to disable a mail server. In a distributed denial of service attack, the attacker uses several host computers to attack another computer or network.

  329. Capella says:

    Petition duly signed. 333,218 at the moment.

    An interesting document is the American Declaration of Independence. It has a detailed charge sheet against King George that would be apt today, both in Scotland and in the USA. With a little editing it could be a template for the coming campaign.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither…


  330. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breeks @ 13:47:

    I would love to ask that John Curtice what impact the BBC and MSM’s latent prejudice against an Independent Scotland, and a properly respected EU, had on the respective results of both referenda

    As it happens, I did tackle him on that subject briefly at the end of one of his interesting Stevenson talks hosted by Glasgow Uni., but one (I seem to recall) where he analysed the last UKGE in Scotland or the ScotGE results rather than either referendum.

    After all this time, I can’t fairly quote him on anything specific, but I was left with the distinct impression that he didn’t have much time then for the influence of “media bias”; instead he ventured the more conventional view that Nicola/the SNP had deployed the wrong tactics in the last week or so of that campaign and let their support slip enough to hurt them a little.

    I think it’s worth keeping in mind that we’re venturing into completely uncharted political territory with each development here, so it would be hardly surprising if there wasn’t at least some grain of truth in Curtis’ contention that some tactical errors in some past campaign were made. While keeping firmly in mind that the SNP still (thankfully) continue to maintain an overwhelming degree of support despite concerted Unionist attempts (some utterly disreputable) to discredit it.

    However, I felt that his dismissal of media bias on that occasion (whichever it was) was rather too brusque. So it would indeed be interesting to see if his views had changed at all in the light of more recent events!

  331. Another alarming darling of the KKK appointed by Trump

  332. I recently had an interesting conversation in a supermarket with one of its staff about turnips. Turnip exports to England from Scotland specifically.

    I’ll need to get this checked somehow but it sounds about right to me. Every time I buy a turnip or, more accurately, a swede in Dunoon (and I buy plenty) it is counted as an export to England. Because the recording of all purchasing of all Scottish goods and products for this particular supermarket is done in England all of it counts in records as exports to England. Even as I am mashing my swede with black pepper and butter it is being counted as an export to England. Like everything else Scottish we purchase in the big supermarkets.

  333. Rock says:


    “Defeat beckons again mark my words. Some sort of residency rule at the very least needs to be in place in my opinion for us to have any chance. Bare minimum.”

    I agree.

    Scotland will not become independent any time soon as long as the large English population here gets a vote on Scottish independence from England.

    But it is hardly a big deal.

    We have waited 300 years and can easily wait another 300 so that we can get independence in a way that no colony in the history of civilisation ever did.

    Long live our “sovereignty”, even though it is not worth the paper it was written on.

  334. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Rock @ 22:43,

    Same old, same old. A straight re-post, I do seem to recall. Yawn…

    DMH @ 21:58,

    Interesting. Sounds plausible to me too. Update us on some future occasion, please. Even if precise numbers aren’t available, it could highlight yet another way by which we are being fed “alternative truth”.

  335. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    As Robert J. Sutherland has pointed out above, I too always look forward to your posts for the refreshing new insight you offer in every post you type.

    How do you find the time to bombard us with all those new, hitherto unseen facts you dig up? I’m well impressed. Keep it up! While you’re typing away on Wings, you’re not damaging the environment. Good for you…

  336. yesindyref2 says:

    I think I see how it works. Rock get’s in at the end of threads, and picks from a list of words and uses one or more, wrapping some other words around them. It’s a short list:

    Robert Peffers (bad)
    sovereignty (no)
    at least one grandparent (Scottish)
    lawyers (bad)
    300 years (another)
    National (gullible)
    Europe (hypocrites)
    Nicola (slow)
    Robert Peffers (bad)

    If we’re lucky, some time or other we’ll see a posting with the whole dozen in it!

  337. a united kingdom which allows one of the kingdoms executives to recall their parliament back to its former place of government either hasn’t read the treaty act or claim of rights you can call this parliament what you like but it is by law a sovereign parliament.

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