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The grand sacrifice

Posted on August 12, 2017 by

The mainstream media is now, by our count, up to at least 13 sizeable articles on the Great Yes-Movement Schism Of 2017 – a minor online spat between a tiny handful of people who’ve never liked each other and most of whom the general public has never heard of – and shows no signs of tiring of gleefully revelling in the subject.

There’s nothing particularly surprising or even diabolical about that. As any reality-TV show viewer will tell you, viewers absolutely love to watch people fighting, and doubly so if it’s the summer silly season and there’s no real news. Most of the stories have attracted large responses and therefore lots of juicy and profitable clicks for tired hacks who long ago stopped having anything of any interest to say but still have to honk out 1000 words a week in order to get paid.

But the more sinister aspect of them is the way they’ve been weaponised to (further) demonise and silence the Yes movement. If someone attacks other Yes figures with a provocative, offensive and dishonest piece, the extra bonus for the media is that any legitimately angry response to it can be used as yet more proof of The Vileness Of The Cybernats: “Look! They even turn on their own if they dare disagree!”

For the Unionist press, that’s a win-win every way up, and there are some on the Yes side who seem only too willing to co-operate with the narrative.

Cat Boyd, a well-off middle-class 32-year-old political activist from Glasgow who’s only actually voted in three general elections in her life, recently revealed on BBC Scotland that she voted Labour in June’s UK one. More precisely, she said that she voted “for Jeremy Corbyn”, although of course that’s not how UK elections work and as far as we can ascertain she actually cast her ballot for Pam Duncan-Glancy.

(Boyd is curiously reluctant to admit that fact, although we have to say we’re not sure why – Duncan-Glancy seems one of the less objectionable of Scottish Labour’s 2017 roster, albeit that’s a low bar to clear. It’s not like it was Blair McDougall or something.)

In a Guardian column yesterday Boyd claimed that her choice had “provoked outrage”, and others have claimed on her behalf that she was subjected to toxic abuse from Yes supporters as a result, although nobody has produced a single actual example of any.

(People have, understandably, reacted with scepticism and sarcasm and quoted a few of her previous comments – some from just days before the election – back at her.)

For our part we were merely intrigued, and read the article several times in the hope of finding some understanding of how the former RISE candidate might have reconciled what she insists is her continued support for independence with voting in Scotland for a party whose Scottish branch is – as well as ironically being hugely hostile to Jeremy Corbyn – pathologically dedicated to opposing it.

(Before the election the party’s then-only Scottish MP, the same Ian Murray referenced by Boyd in her National column above, had told Radio Scotland that We’ve got one message and one message only right across Scotland as we go into the general election on the 8th of June. And that is, we can put another nail in the independence referendum coffin by voting Labour on the 8th of June and sending a very strong message to Nicola Sturgeon that the people of Scotland do not want another divisive independence referendum.” That was the “one message only” Boyd voted for.)

None was forthcoming. The rambling, unfocused piece spent most of its time detailing how the UK government had always disrespected devolution and trampled on all its founding principles whether Labour or the Tories were in power at Westminster, and we waited in vain for anything that would elaborate on how Corbyn might change that.

Having completely failed to explain her reasoning for then voting for more of the same just because she thought a nice old man was brave and rebellious, Boyd then simply pretended that she had, concluding with this line:

“I’m standing in the middle of two-way traffic, as a pro-independence Corbyn supporter. Have no doubt, there are thousands of others like me.”

And that, at least, was an interesting point. Because if just a few thousand more independence supporters had thought like Cat Boyd and voted Labour, the SNP would have been all but wiped out in an election where all three Unionist parties fought on a single policy platform – No More Referendums.

In an election where more than 2.6 million votes were cast, if a mere 0.4% of them – 11,537 more people – had followed her example and switched from the SNP to Labour because of the kindly pensioner with the nice beard and the sandals and the bicycle and the CND badge (but who’s going to renew Trident), the outcome would have been:

Labour 23 seats
SNP 19 seats
Conservatives 13 seats
Lib Dems 4 seats

So let’s imagine that for a moment. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see that such a result would have completely destroyed any prospect of independence for the forseeable future.

A party which stood on absolutely implacable opposition to independence would have won the election in a massive swing of seats. The SNP would have lost two thirds of its seats and have been outnumbered more than two to one by Unionist Scottish MPs at Westminster – every one of whom could truthfully say “I stood on a platform of total die-in-a-ditch opposition to another referendum and will vote to stop it happening”.

In reality the SNP won the election convincingly, with almost three times as many seats as their nearest opponent and more than all the Unionist parties put together, and it was still portrayed in the media as a crushing defeat for the party and a huge body blow to independence. Picture the narrative had they actually lost it.

That was the scenario Cat Boyd was prepared to risk, because it plainly demonstrates that anyone in Scotland who votes Labour “for Jeremy Corbyn” is inescapably surrendering any chance of independence in favour of the hope of Scotland being part of a Corbynist UK instead. And she’s perfectly entitled to make that choice.

But if the “radical” left is really abandoning Scottish independence for UK socialism, it doesn’t seem too much to ask that they simpy admit it, and stop insulting everyone’s intelligence by pretending otherwise.

(Because even if you accept for a moment the proposition that Corbyn isn’t opposed to a second referendum, you can be certain that Scottish Labour MPs would never vote for one. And the chance of him ever having a majority that could survive a rebellion by his own Scottish MPs if Scots had voted dozens of them in is zero.)

You can’t claim to still want to have your cake while voting for the NO MORE CAKES FOR SCOTLAND EVER Party and expect anyone to take you seriously.

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  1. 12 08 17 12:57

    The grand sacrifice | speymouth

  2. 12 08 17 14:45

    The Lunatic Fringe - Autonomy Scotland

249 to “The grand sacrifice”

  1. McHaggis69 says:

    Like the rest of the Scottish ‘radical left’, Cat sees a minuscule window of opportunity/hope that Labour might eventually get back in to Westminster (the fact they didn’t against the most inept Tory campaign ever doesn’t seem to register).

    When Labour where in the wilderness completely across the UK, they jumped on independence and used it as a vehicle for a potentially socialist Scotland.

    That particular hobby horse is now clearly dumped as they rush to support Corbyn (who is *never* going to win a UK election) in the vain hope of getting a socialist UK.

    They are mercenaries simply looking for a way to advance socialism in any way they can.

    Independence has been dropped like a hot potato.

    I’m 100% for Scottish indy, but will cast my vote in an independent state the way I see fit – and its not going to be for any hard left utopia. Independence first, the shape of Scotlands politics afterwards is a clear secondary outcome.

  2. Wulls says:

    So…..her actions were basically Ilike cats so I voted for a dog
    It’s all clear now.

  3. Bob Mack says:

    Wholeheartedly agree Rev. Cat Boyd like many others including Angela ( i’m on TV now) Haggerty,Loki, have been utilising the indy movement purely as a vehicle of self promotion. I do not actually believe that independence is their priority at all.

    It never fails to amaze me how easily principles can be exchanged with such alacrity. Grouch Marx was right when he said. “If you don’t like these principles, I have others”.
    If the cap fits etc.

  4. handclapping says:

    Thats all very well but it still doesn’t tell me who Cat Boyd is or why she matters. And I’ve been a nationalist since 1963.

  5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Well, it matters because she has a platform. By being featured on the BBC and in the Guardian and the rest, she gets to speak to voters that the rest of the indy movement can’t reach.

  6. Flower of Scotland says:

    I remember watching Cat Boyd at Rallies in the run up to the 2014 Scottish Referendum. I thought she was brilliant and felt a glow at how articulate and young she was.

    Sadly this feeling has been slowly eroded mostly by her writings in the National.

    Shock was what I felt when I knew she had voted for Labour in the GE, followed by incredible anger! I now despise her and wish she could realise how many Scots she has hurt by voting for a Unionist party after swearing allegiance to Scottish Independence.

    Go away somewhere quiet Cat and have a wee think about what you have done to us, in the Independence movement.

  7. HandandShrimp says:

    I wish I knew who I was supposed to in a schism with. It would make it a lot easier to argue with them

    I don’t really count some of the Rise supporters flirting with Corbyn’s vision of socialism because I know they are going to b e livid with Labour the moment that vision is quashed. None of them appear to have deserted the ranks of pro-independence either which means they represent a far greater problem for Labour’s party machine than they do the independence movement.

    Mind you can you trust someone who claims to be a biographer but doesn’t even know if the subject of their biography reads books or not? How weird is that?

  8. heedtracker says:

    It looked like chunks of a bigger SNP bad thing from her, and then Graun gimp/hammer of the Scots ed, Severin did his britnat toryboy version of it. Easy money though.

  9. Highland Wifie says:

    What killed me was her tweet “Why are people so fickle?”
    Self awareness doesn’t seem to be her strong suit.

  10. Gordon Hunter says:

    Vacuous Nonentity!

  11. Steven Roy says:

    What fascinates me is that people like Cat Boyd are switching to Corbyn because of what he stands for. When push comes to shove no-one knows what his principles are. As mentioned in the article despite being senior in CND he is now in favour of Trident renewal. I don’t think in my entire life I have met someone who was opposed to nuclear weapons and then changed his/her mind. If he is capable of a u-turn on that he is capable of a u-turn on anything.

    Even if he did deliver UK socialism within a decade the Tories would be back again. How anyone can put Scottish independence behind a few years of socialist UK baffles me. I can only assume Cat Boyd is yet another careerist who sees this as an opportunity to stand out from the crowd and for a bit of self-promotion.

    Her’s is not a principled position.

  12. galamcennalath says:

    I just don’t get why some people can compromise their declared believe that Scotland should be an independent country.

    That should IMO be a fundamental stance above and beyond all else.

    I’ve been a lifelong SNP voter and that includes many decades ago when it was basically a wasted vote in constituencies which were then staunch Labour. I joined the SNP in 2014 in disgust at the underhand undemocratice way the NO vote was won.

    My politics are centre which probably means mainstream European and in turn means left of centre on the UK spectrum. But that’s never what voting SNP is about for me. The SNP will be instrumental in achieving independence and that is more important than any other issue or policy.

    I want an independent democratic Scotland. I trust my fellow Scots to decide whether it’s an EU, non EU, socialist, green, social democratic, or even right wing iScotland. That decision comes after independence.

    Other people clearly see things differently. For them iScotland must be socialist, or green, or out of the EU. And that I simply just don’t get.

    What it does seem to mean, as both this Cat Boyd affair and the recent elections shows, is that folks who have been YES are willing to back Unionist parties on the basis of a few transitory and superficial policies. That saddens me, but that is their democratic choice.

    I do hope that when IndyRef2 become necessary and campaigning begins, the YES2 movement rises above party politics. To do so will mean the SNP steps back to some degree and let a variety of groups move forward. Some will have specific policies, like the SNP itself and Greens and no doubt some radical left. Others, will need to push Indy in a non political way. And for heaven’s sake avoid infighting before Indy is achieved!

  13. Mchaggis69 says:

    …and be under no illusion here…

    Cat and others have drip fed the ‘independence schism’ for some time now, and it is inevitably buidling to the ‘indy supporters forced my switch back to pro-UK’ crescendo.

    Give it a week or two and they will be full blown anti-indy and all the column inches and circle jerking among the unionist media that will come with it.

  14. heedtracker says:

    Vacuous Nonentity!

    Logic really. If like the Guardian here, you are relentlessly trying to keep a UKOK region down/in its place/in check, who else are you going to get to monster Scotland. other than someone like Ms Boyd?

  15. Ghillie says:

    Well, each to their own I guess.


    But if Cat Boyd wants to vote Slab now, which is unionist, together with unionist Jeremy Corbym and unionist UKLabour, then that is a choice I hope she came to after careful consideration.

    A little more clarity would be helpful.

    Cat Boyd had a political platform under the YES banner and if that is no longer her position then I think it is only fair to the people who supported her in the past to now be put in the picture as to her current alligence.

    She is a sweet girl (gave her lift once) and I hope she does come fully back on board with the Independence Movement without ANY ambiguity about her commitment to Independence.

    But clarity is a must. Anything less is not fair.

  16. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s going to sound a pretty trite thing to say, but the thing about democracy is that it’s one person, one vote, and our vote is our own, to do with whatever we want. That’s something we all need to bear in mind – and fully respect.

  17. velofello says:

    When you have Master Torrance defending you, you are facing the wrong goal.

    Decision day for me tomorrow. I’ll have a quick scan through the Sunday Herald then decide -To Buy or Not to Buy.

  18. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    It appears to me the Unionists have temporarily stopped digging their own hole, and are trying to encourage the independence movement to start digging their own hole.

  19. Ghillie says:

    Where are Nana and Smallaxe?

  20. Bradford Millar says:

    this is the same Cat Boyd on the eve of the Holyrood election which she was standing in as a candidate for RISE wrote on her column in the National who the next Celtic boss should be … now this struck me as being bizarre how can anyone take this silly lassie serious

  21. Lennie says:

    I made this comment the other day, I’ll just copy and paste it here…

    “I don’t understand why some found it surprising that Cat, voted Labour.

    She’s a hardcore socialist. She’s a trade union activist, specifically for UNITE who are affiliated with Labour and party’s biggest financial donor.

    She’s a Corbynista who sees him as the second coming of Che Guevara.

    Cat’s flag is red and white not the neon yellow of the SNP.

    I’ve often suspected Cat’s support for independence was motivated by there being more chance of Scotland becoming a socialist utopia than the UK as a whole. I don’t think it was geared towards the merits of the rights and wrongs of independence itself.

    Perhaps she feels Corbyn can achieve that socialist utopia.”

  22. Tackety Beets says:

    There is only ONE vehicle to iScotland , namely SNP

    No one on here will agree with everything we see posted here or with everything the SNP are about.


    Let us just think for a moment if ANY OTHER PARTY was in charge @ Scot GVT ………jeezo it would be nightmares all round.

    We forget how lucky we are that enough people, despite the MSM / BBC etc ,can see this and vote accordingly.

  23. colin alexander says:

    Before I say anything else. It’s on record, that I asked people to vote SNP at the Council and General Election.

    It’s also on record that I said I voted SNP / Green at the Council election and said I voted SNP at the GE.

    Having said that, I don’t see the how voting Labour at the GE made any real difference about indy.

    The SNP weren’t standing for indy. They stood for: Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster.

    We did get nonsense about a triple lock for an indyref. What triple lock is that? There is no such thing, it’s pure meaningless political rhetoric.

    The truth is the SNP were shying away from indy. The worst election campaign I’ve ever seen from the SNP.

    Their GE campaign was tripe. The result was that the SNP won the election but with big losses. Many didn’t bother to vote. No wonder. There was nothing worth voting for.

    SNP MPs are a waste of time and money. 56 out of 59 SNP MPs, no disrespect to any of the hardworking and talented people people that many of them are, but they achieved nothing.

    That’s one of the big reasons for independence. That democratic deficit.

    Sadly, many people didn’t follow my advice to vote SNP, and that let in Tories and their Labour allies.

  24. heedtracker says:

    Last election, RISE drove up and down Pollokshaws Road, southside Glasgow, all day, in a builders pick up truck, shouting at people with a loud hailer, vote RISE. It was really loud but probably didn’t make much of a difference, maybe got them a few votes here and there.

    And yet now they’re The Guardian columnists, tory Graun too. Very far left rads, given acres of Graun column space, in the not so lefty, rather tory britnat Graun. No wonder its gibberish:D

  25. Richard MacKinnon says:

    The reason there are so many articles in the press about the independence movement falling apart is because there is a lot of evidence to suggest that is exactly what is happening.

  26. ClanDonald says:

    It’s very simple: if you’re involved in the Scottish independence debate and the UK media have embraced you then it means you are useful in their aim of defeating Scottish independence.

    The radical left seem to think that they’ve been embraced because, erm, um, they’re important..?

    All the Common Space folk who were involved in the anti-Wings spat back there have all been invited on to the openly hostile to independence Radio Scotland. Are they unable to make the connection?

    Remember, folks, if you know something or have an opinion that will help increase support for independence, the MSM will do everything in it’s power to make sure your voice isn’t heard.

  27. Ghillie says:

    Hey there folks!

    MOBILISE are looking for us all to share our ideas on how we can best futher the Movement for Independence and how we would like a future Independent Scotland to be.

    You’ll find their questionair on the SNP website = )

  28. Dr Jim says:

    I’m going deaf with idiots screaming at us demanding relevance for no purpose other than their own self promotion at the expense of the country

    This dumb wee lassie has never been anything else but dumb, but there are others involved in this nonsense as well and the media will no doubt lap them up and extend an even greater platform to them if they think it can in any way damage the Independence movement

    Like all of these people she can’t answer a single sensible question with a straight answer because there isn’t an answer to the way they behave except fluff and nonsense just like their leader Obi Wan Corbyn who ghosts through interviews without even committing himself to milk in his tea let alone a defined political position for fear of it being repeated back at him later so that he has to deny he ever said it

    And that folks is how the Labour party operates and always did up until they became Tories under Blair and it lingers on in Scotland with Dugdale talking mince a minute then denying that was what she meant as it was a different mince she was talking about “to be very clear” and that is her position and always has been (till this afternoon when it changes again)

    Career Career Career and as much Telly and press as they can get seems the order of the day for some of the medias wee promotion people, and they have nothing to do with us or our country

    Drop them! Ditch them! Dump them! and deny them what they would deny us

  29. Stoker says:

    @Steven Roy on 12 August, 2017 at 12:30 pm:

    Good post Steven, enjoyed reading that.

    I used to like Cat Boyd, now i detest the very sight of her.

    March 2017 Corbyn comes out in favour of another Indyref.
    March 2017,2-days later Corbyn comes out against another Indyref.

    Corbyn will do exactly what’s in Westminster’s interests if he ever gets into No10. Corbyn is a Unionist and can’t be trusted.

  30. yesindyref2 says:

    I agree. There are many on the hard left who supported Indy because they saw there was no chance of having that with the Union. In fact a lot of the material was “Vote NO and get Tory government for life” kind of thing, even from those NOT on the hard left.

    It’s a similar thing with the anti-nuke thing. If the UK voted to abolish its nukes, but only if Scotland voted NO, there’d be a lot of vote-changers in the “movement”.

    This is the reality, YES is a collection of vastly different people, united not by YES in many cases, but because YES gives the only chance of their own aims and beliefs being implemented.

  31. ScottishPsyche says:

    Every time I see another attempt at justification for her actions by Cat Boyd I am no more informed than the time before. Kevin Mckenna shares similar muddled thinking.

    What the Radical Left never seem to realise is that no matter how many times they try to hitch their wagon to the latest opportunity, nobody wants to vote for them. We know some people wanted to vote for Independence but were too scared because of the leap into the unknown. Some may even felt an unopposed Left might have more control than they wanted and they needed Westminster to rein them in. So much for them ‘getting the vote out’.

    The Radical Left has always wanted to take control, not to persuade people that their message was the right one for the country. Cat Boyd et al saw Independence as a means to do that and in their childish haste and impatience now believe Corbyn is the way to do that. They are no more supporters of Independence than they are believers that there is a democratic deficit crippling Scotland.

    If Corbyn was elected tomorrow they would embrace his government with open arms and Independence would be forgotten in the big Socialist Dream. The test will be Holyrood. Will they still vote SLab if that means Dugdale would be in charge? Or are they so naive as to believe Scottish Labour would enact Corbyn’s policies?

  32. Helena Brown says:

    Too much argument about the sort of independence they want, not enough fighting for that Independence. It has left a bad taste in my mouth watching a bunch of middle class, class warriors derailing things so many fought for. As a former member of Unison, I saw any amount of Socialist Worker types from primarily the Social Work Department in action who had never done a days hard work and I could take bets they were all in Rise.
    When you consider she has been in the National from o m the beginning and it took people to lobby to get Paul Kavanaugh in, as I said makes my blood boil.

  33. heedtracker says:

    Richard MacKinnon says:
    12 August, 2017 at 12:53 pm
    The reason there are so many articles in the press about the independence movement falling apart is because there is a lot of evidence to suggest that is exactly what is happening.

    You wish Richie boy, you wish:D

  34. yesindyref2 says:

    What could and should unify the Independence Movement, is that only with Independence can we get political parties that represent Scotland rather than the UK as a whole, whether hard left, Conservative, LibDem, Labour – or SNP or Green.

    Only with Independence can we have a Scotland, governed in Scotland according to the wishes of the Scottish People.

  35. yesindyref2 says:

    “wishes” should be “wishes and needs”

  36. Dr Jim says:

    Trouble with worms concern trolling is it doesn’t matter what you say, folk can still see you’re a worm

  37. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    Cat Boyd spent more time slagging off SNP and their supporters than she ever did with the unionists. She simply jumped on the indy bandwagon for self promotion.

  38. Ghillie says:

    The MSM would not be interested in slating the Independence Movement if they were not seriously worried about how close Scotland is to Independence = )

    Given the news about the oil revenue figures together with all that Scotland has going for it, no wonder we are witnessing the panic.

    We might not enjoy the negativity but it is the surest sign the establishment is seriously scared 🙂

    Have a lovely weekend folks x

  39. Proud Cybernat says:

    Hey Cat, doll – come IndyRef2, how you gonna vote? Will you vote NO coz you think Jezza will be along any minute to deliver the socialist utopia you dream of within the UK?

    Because you know what, Cat – that will NEVER happen. Even if Jezza gains a landslide across the UK your socilaist paradise will NEVER happen. Don’t you GET IT yet?

    The UK Labour Party are just another means by which the UK ESTABLISHMENT controls what happens in this country and a socially just and more equal society free from nukes simply isn’t on their agenda. Why the fuck can’t you see that?

    Voting Labour in the UK will get you the total sum and cube root of hee haw. You want the proof of that? Just look at how UK Labour supported and continues to support Tory austerity; look at how they support Brexit; look at how they support WMDs; look at how they continue to support an undemocratic institution such as the House of Lords. Labour are just the left cheek of the Establishment’s arse, Cat. The UK Establishment will NEVER allow radical change to happen in the UK and especially where it would undermine their privileged status. Just NOT going to happen.

    I’m old enough now to realise that the “One more heave” mentality is just a fucking ruse to get another bunch of WM troughers’ snouts in the trough. They need your vote to get their snout in the trough. That is ALL it is about for them. That’s the ONLY reason they need you.

    Within an Indy Scotland then it’s a totally different ball game; then we have a chance to shape our very own country from the ground up and not from the elite down.

    The Union isn’t working. The Union is harming Scotland. The Union must be terminated. It’s the only way we have to find a better approach to achieve the socially just and more equal society most of us want.

    It NOT going to be delivered in the UK. If anything, the equality gap will simply widen.

    FFS, wisen up hen.

  40. HandandShrimp says:

    The reason there are so many articles in the press about the independence movement falling apart is because there is a lot of evidence to suggest that is exactly what is happening.

    No there isn’t which is why you have died in the wool Tory Yoons like Torrance merely writing articles hoping it will happen.

    I don’t know know anyone who was active in 2014 in favour of Yes who has changed their minds and even the Rise people like Cat are still saying they are pro-independence. What is happening with Labour and Corbyn is something else. We will all have to wait and see how that plays out. I am ambivalent on the matter. I can see advantages to having a lot of the Rise activists in Labour.

  41. Effijy says:

    I actually have a real Cat with more Political
    Nuance than this Cat.

    It won’t eat anything that came out of a Red
    Or Blue Tin.

    Could become the next leader of RISE?

    Just had a terrible picture of George Gallow
    asking if she would like him to be the Cat !!

  42. Shinty says:

    ‘the indy movement is falling apart’

    In Yoonsville’s great big wishing well.

  43. Mike says:

    Seems to me Cat Boyd has personal ambitions of becoming a Labour party MP under Corbyn knowing full well she can never get her nose into the political gravy trough with RISE.
    Another self serving politico wannabe with a pretence for principles.
    I believe they are commonly referred to as champagne socialists.

  44. panda paws says:

    I’ve no interest in folk like Cat Boyd – she may well be a very nice person, I’ve never met her. However politically she is naive. A bit like the folk that voted No because they wanted more powers and felt it was a safer option than independence. Well it wasn’t and voting Labour if you want independence is similarly daft. My politics may be more like Corbyn than Sturgeon but there is only one of them that’s going to waste billions renewing Trident, despite both on them being/have been members of CND, and then place them in my back yard.

    If socialism is more important in indy vote Labour (though SLAB ain’t socialist)

    If indy is more important than socialism vote for a pro-indy party

    It’s really that simple.

  45. Sunniva says:

    I think she’s a phoney. Talking out of her a***. That article was incoherent.

    If she wants to be British socialist, fair enough. That’s up to her. But just admit it please, and spare us the pretence of being a Scottish independinista.

    She’s 32 years old. I’m 65 years old and I’ve had it with British socialism. I’ve waited decades for it to happen and it’s never happened. It went into reverse. If she wants to wait until she’s 65 (33 years) for it to happen, good luck to her.

    And you know, even when British socialism did happen, when Labour nationalisedBritish industries after WW2, it worked against Scottish interests, long term.

    Because control that once existed locally in Scotland (albeit in private hands) became centralised in London. And there we had even less say over it. When Beeching, for instance, closed down Scottish railway stations. Or any jam needed to be handed out, it was English steel that got it. And Thatcher could close down the pits,

  46. geeo says:

    If the independence movement is “falling apart” then why is there a huge majority of SNP MP’s at WM?

    Why did the SNP win by landslide in 2016 holyrood election ?

    Or in the 2017 Council elections ?

    Why is there a live referendum mandate gained not even 18 months ago, prepped and ready to deploy ?

    The only thing that is collapsing in Scotland is unionism.

    Case in point…this is from the herald, not good reading for Davidson after the slap down by TM’s right hand.

    RUTH Davidson is facing a potentially damaging legal action after a veteran ScottishConservative activist was blocked from becoming Scotland’s next MEP.

    The party’s management board, which includes Ms Davidson, has refused to endorse Belinda Don going to Brussels, despite her being the choice of grassroots members.

    The SNP said the Tories were “fighting like rats in a sack”.

    Ms Don is now consulting her legal team about stopping the party approving anyone else for the position.

    Her lawyers have already warned they may seek an interdict at the Court of Session.

    READ MORE: John McDonnell claims that Government’s EU exit plans are in chaos

    The development, which threatens to expose party infighting, is dangerous for Ms Davidson, who had been riding high in the Tory party since gains in the General Election.

    It could also shed an unwelcome light on her leadership style, which some party sources describe as autocratic and unforgiving.

    There is bad blood between the two women.

    Ms Don opposed Ms Davidson becoming Scottish Tory leader in 2011, and recently said that if you were not part of her clique “then you are out”.

    Ms Davidson, meanwhile, is understood to regard Ms Don as “stuck up”, and not sufficiently active in the party to merit the Brussels job, which would only last until Brexitin 2019.

    Ms Don, who worked for 12 years as an MEP’s assistant, described the rejection as “a personal attack” and said the European Parliament seat did not “belong” to Ms Davidson.

    She said: “It’s deeply frustrating. I’ve struggled for 12 years to do this and wanted to represent the Scottish people, put my experience to good use and give something back.”

  47. scottieDog says:

    The worry is that it’s sometimes easier to continue the delusion rather than admit you are wrong. Of course Corbyn has done a few u-turns since the GE which should give her a way out.

    Fwiw I have a few left-leaning friends who still want to be part of the union. They helped elect the wonderful leslie laird :€

  48. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Perhaps she feels Corbyn can achieve that socialist utopia.”

    Perhaps. But in that case, as the article notes, stop pretending that you still back independence.

  49. Alex Clark says:

    According the the post referendum poll carried out by Ashcroft between 10pm and midnight of 2000 voters many Labour voters in Scotland did vote Yes.

    “Also not surprisingly, Conservative voters were the most staunchly Unionist, with 95% voting to reject independence. Of the other pro-Union parties, nearly four in ten of those who voted Labour or Liberal Democrat in the last Westminster* elections voted Yes. Meanwhile one in seven SNP voters opted to remain in the UK.”

    In fact 37% of Labour voters voted Yes according to the tables which is not too shabby at all. However I suspect that a good many of these Yes supporters who may have voted for the SNP in the 2015 GE then switched back to Labour for 2017 just because of Corbyn and among the No voting Labour supporters a lot went to the Tories in 2017. We all lose then.

    I think we also have to remember that there was a group within Scottish Labour that officially came out in support of a Yes, “Labour for Independence”. The idea behind this group was to help persuade the SLab leadership that a vote for Indepndence was in the best interests of Scotland and Slab themselves.

    Of course this didn’t happen and if anything the anti-Indy stand of the Slab leadership has increased hugely, even not so long ago Kezia Dugdale was talking of a free vote on Independence for MSP’s and members.

    So things have changed quite dramatically in the last 4 years or so and anyone now putting party before Indpendence is blinded to the fact that this tactic will achieve nothing. To win Independence it is of vital importance that your vote in any election only goes to a party supporting Indepndence in their manifesto.

    If those that chose to support Labour in Scotland had instead voted SNP and Labour had lost their last remaining seat I think they would have had no choice other than to ditch their opposition to Independence as the Tories would have stolen that from them. If Labour in Scotland ever ditch their opposition to Independence and vote with the SNP then the Union is over.

    Voting Labour now in Scotland is clearly not a vote in support of Independence.

  50. Capella says:

    Cat Boyd is young. She hasn’t lived through 40 years of being disappointed by British Labour. She hasn’t learned to read the small print on every Labour Manifesto (specially the bit that says “when finances allow”).

    She doesn’t realise New Labour removed Clause 4 to avoid ever having to deliver socialism and they removed their commitment to Scottish Home Rule to avoid ever having to deliver it.

    Labour is:

    anti Scottish independence
    anti EU
    pro Nuclear Weapons
    pro illegal wars
    pro arms sales to dictator regimes
    pro privatisation of public services
    pro PFIs
    pro tuition fees
    pro prescription charges
    pro bridge tolls

    If that’s the kind of political party you support then you should certainly vote for it.

  51. Bob Mack says:

    Interesting she has just tweeted. “That Britain must break because there are problems that even Corbyn in no 10 cannot fix”
    Damascene conversion?

  52. stonefree says:

    @ colin alexander 12:50 pm
    I agree with you, The strange thing it the useless ones are still in WN and the Good Ones Jettisoned.

  53. john Nisbet says:

    I have never trusted the radical-left on anything because they are people without principles who will jump on any bandwagon for the sake of indoctrinating the young and/or gullible into their cult-like parties through a plethora of ‘front groups’.

    Did they really ever believe in indy or did they see the referendum as a recruiting opportunity? They cam together to create the front group ‘radical independence campaign’ & claimed to have always supported independence and ,furthermore, to be the purest and most sincere part of the campaign. They also claimed that they had been massively successful in ‘getting out the vote’ in housing schemes & having added huge numbers of voters to the yes campaign.

    Let us consider these claims one at a time. Firstly, the idea that RIC was massively successful at getting out the vote & persuaded huge numbers of working-class voters to vote for yes. There are 2 main issues with this contention: (1) RIC never had more than a couple of hundred activists so they couldn’t have reached the scale of voters they claimed to have reached. (2) The performance of RISE in the 2016 Holyrood elections was derisory, with them barely registering in terms of vote share, even managing to finish behind the Proclaiming Christ’s Lordship Party (no, I had never heard of them either) so their argument that their ideas were popular among (and delivered votes from) working-class communities appears to have been a fairy-tale.

    The 2nd matter to consider is whether the purpose of RIC was ever to try and win a yes vote for independence. Those of us who are familiar with, or who have studied, the hard-left know well that their main recruiting strategy is to jump on a bandwagon (any bandwagon) which they think will be popular, particularly amongst the young, and to infiltrate or take over the campaigning structures on that issue. They are not at all sniffy about what the objectives of the campaign are- any bandwagon will do. As well as their infiltration work they will also set up front organisations with a respectable name and seemingly reasonable objectives, hiding the Marxist ideology behind it, in order to lure people in. Of course, once the innocent are lured, the attempt at indoctrination into Marxism begins. This luring and indoctrination is the entire purpose of these organisations- the cause or campaign is incidental-a mere means to an end.

    Given that should we be surprised at Cat Boyd and her ilk moving away from independence and supporting Corbyn and his acolytes? Of course not. The referendum and RIC was, to Cat and her ilk, nothing to do with independence. It was a bandwagon to jump on and a bandwagon that allowed them to engage in their usual recruiting tactics: that being, the creation of a ‘respectable’ front group to lure people in with the express purpose of providing activists with the opportunity to indoctrinate young and gullible people into Marxism. RIC was never about independence; it was all about classical Marxist recruiting targets. With the failure of RISE & another referendum in the long grass the Marxists have jumped to another bandwagon (Corbyn) because that allows them to engage in the tactic of infiltration-front group-luring-indoctrination.

    I am sure that there are people who feel betrayed, or who had their fingers burnt, by these hard-left activists and the lesson for everyone is that “A Trot is never anything other than a Trot”. They are not interested in the good of a cause, they are only interested in how they can use a cause- and they will dump that cause as soon as another recruiting opportunity comes along.

    For those of us who have the best interests of Scots at heart and want independence because we think that is the best thing for Scotland’s people- dump the Trots and let’s not be fooled by them in the future.

  54. Alex Clark says:

    @Bob Mack

    Tweet from 2016 Bob.

  55. TheWasp says:

    I don’t do Twitter, read newspapers and do Facebook once in a blue moon, so I had no knowledge of Cat Boyd except some comments about her on here before the Question Time episode.
    I don’t know how she is considered a socialist,from what I have seen since, she is old school Labour, in it for herself.
    In my life I lived in a village “run” by Labour, which was just like the Cosa Nostra, favours, contracts, people being informers for the big men, and they all did very well. I also worked beside a former head of cosla, and even so early in his political career it was obvious that wasn’t about ideology, but about what he could do for himself.Her agenda seems the very same.
    I see the Cat in the same category as lord flipper, pictured carrying the banner on the union march, but now ermined up and riding first class on the gravy train.

  56. Dan Huil says:

    Corbyn, like Tony Benn before him, is just another britnat. Corbyn will always put Westminster’s wants above Scotland’s needs – just like May.

  57. dakk says:

    Cat Boyd is out of the same British Nationalist faux socialist mould as the likes of Goerge Galloway ( working class firebrand Scots heroes).

    They have no regard for Scotland or it’s people.

    Their own political niche and their British identity is paramount.

  58. Auld Rock says:

    McHaggis69 has got it in one. If the yoons think we are at 6’s and 7’s then all to the good.

    Auld Rock

  59. Geejay says:

    The younger generation who have only known Thatcher, Blair et al, basically the same far right party, think Corbyn is a the new Lenin – they don’t know any different.

  60. Highland Wifie says:

    You’ve hit the nail. Youthful naivety. She’s about the same age as my own children.
    Do I listen to my own children’s opinions without running them through the filter of my experience? Eh ..No.

  61. Robert Peffers says:

    Let us all face the stark fact that attempting to understand how the minds work of those voters in Scotland who claim to be real socialists Labour supporters is akin to a schoolchild who failed their Arithmetic exam attempting to understand Differential and Integral Calculus. Their logical thought patterns just cannot cope with the complexities of political thinking.

    You simply cannot support the modern Labour party and claim to be a true socialist.

    The modern Labour Party policies are only slightly less extreme right wing than the those of the Tory party left wing. Even Corbyn, who is so passionately despised by the entire Parliamentary Labour Party, is decidedly right of centre on that same political spectrum.

    How can such people reconcile their right of centre policies with socialist values?

  62. Proud Cybernat says:

    “The development, which threatens to expose party infighting, is dangerous for Ms Davidson, who had been riding high in the Tory party…”

    Riding high? Roofie still on top of that tank or is the bison wearing high heels?

  63. yesindyref2 says:

    Perhaps. But in that case, as the article notes, stop pretending that you still back independence.

    Why “pretending”? Anyone can do both, and many do, in fact to get over 50% YES vote, most will have other things apart from Indy dear to their – our – hearts.

    There will be conflicts for some though, and it’s up to them to resolve the conflict of interests, and us to help if we can.

    Hearts and minds, hearts and minds.

  64. heedtracker says:

    Other end of whatever this from Ms Boyd is about? BBC black out of SNP anything at all in England.

    Just listening to BBC r4 Any Answers phone-in show, all about the “three main parties” and Brexit. Cons, Lab, LibDem, are the three main UK parties, as the beeb chair gimp prattles on and on about, the three main UK parties. Its quite a display of BBC mindset, across the country, simpers the gimp.

  65. Bootsy81 says:

    When I saw who Cat Boyd’s vote seems to have gone to and her seeming reluctance to say who it was she voted for I couldn’t help but reflect on my own experience and how dissimilar it is.

    My own MP is Alison Thewliss and she is easily the best MP I’ve had in my 35 years of life. She’s actually done things! Most notably her campaigning against the rape clause but that’s only the headliner amongst many other things she’s been doing.

    She’s one of the most quietly effective MPs in the SNP’s roster at the moment IMO. She isn’t the young maverick Mhairi Black is, nor is she the eloquent ex-labour man Tommy Shepard is or a QC like Joanna Cherry for example, and as such doesn’t get as many headlines as they seem to, but she’s a bloody good MP who actually tries to make a difference.

    I actually, for the first time in my life, feel quite proud to have voted for an MP. Admittedly the first time round it was only because she was the pro indy candidate, but now she’d get my vote pretty much regardless. Considering my MP prior to her was Anas Sarwar it’s an almighty relief to have an MP doing her job and doing it well. Sarwar was a non-entity by comparison. If we’d lost Alison for a Labour candidate, or worse a Tory, at the last GE I’d have been gutted. Not just for the loss of a pro indy MP, but for the loss of a bloody good MP. If Cat Boyd’s experience is even a little similar to mine I can’t quite get my head round her wanting to exchange her MP for a unionist one. They seem terrible virtually across the board.

  66. K1 says:

    Bob Mack, that tweet from Cat Boyd you refer to is a retweet on Rev’s twitter from July 2016.

    It’s not her ‘current’ position, he’s hammering home her contrary stance.

  67. K1 says:

    Oops, just saw yours Alex 🙁

  68. Bob Mack says:

    @Alex Clark,

    Thanks Alex. It rather then proves my point made earlier than they change loyalty as often as they change shoes.

  69. Seperatist ONE says:

    She can vote for who she likes, but by doing so, she isn’t one of us. A memeber of the YES family.

  70. Colin Boyd says:

    A few observations.

    1/ Commenters could avoid helping the shit stirring along by refraining from condscending language like “dumb lassie”.

    2/ The MSM is obviously fomenting a schism nonetheless underlying potential for one does exist, namely in Corbyn’s appeal to SNP voters and Yes voters’ differences over Brexit.

    3/ Boyd’s personal motivation is ultimately that she’s a lexiter and thus isn’t going to stick around to be marginalized in a second indyref campaign themed around Europe. That ultimatly explains the gradual backsliding from “Corbyn is lovely but he’s not a fix for the union” to her current position.

    4/ Her current position essentially disingenuously and for the opportunist reasons I just mentioned, reduces independence to just another left wing virtue signal and in so doing largely rubs out the practical rationale behind the socialist case for independence. Because the potential to foment the schisms is real, this is understandably threatening to nats and feels like a betrayal. Hence its great utility for MSM concern trolling.

    5/ In accordance with the parting shot ATL- if anyone in Yes wants to return to puerile and abstract socialist internationalism (within the UK island) by voting Corbyn and abandoning the EU and an independent socialist Scotland, that is entirely their free prerogative. I’m not saying there are no justifications for this from a socialist perspective; they just don’t square with the pre-existing and still valid arguments to the contrary which figures like Boyd were still mouthing as little as a year ago, and upon which their current media and political profiles rest….

  71. yesindyref2 says:

    The thing is that Cat Boyd might be “naive”, but she does seem to be honest and open with it.

    For instance on that QT thing she could easily have lied and said she voted in the EU Ref by post or proxy – as it’s confidential nobody could have proven otherwise. Instead of that she admitted the truth – she was away and didn’t vote. She also said she had mixed feelings, well, so did I, I still voted Remain. For me the EU ain’t perfect, but it’s better to be in, than out.

    Personally I put a lot of store by honesty, even if it’s not always the way I’d like it to be! We’re not all geniuses, after all.

    As far as I’m concerned Cat Boyd is still a very welcome part of the Indy Movement, unless she says she isn’t.

  72. Alex Clark says:

    Here are a few of many Labour cabinet member socialist in their own words. Feel free to vote for them if thats’ what you want.

    Hilary Benn Labour shadow foreign secretary Dec. 2015 Speaking on Syria:
    “As we are undertaking airstrikes in Iraq, where Daesh’s hold has been reduced, and as we are doing everything but engaging in airstrikes in Syria, should we not play our full part?

    It has been argued in the debate that airstrikes achieve nothing. Not so: the House should look at how Daesh’s forward march has been halted in Iraq.”

    Speech made in HOC

    Rachel Reeves: Labour shadow work and pensions secretary Oct 2013 on austerity:
    “Nobody should be under any illusions that they are going to be able to live a life on benefits under a Labour government. If you can work you should be working, and under our compulsory jobs guarantee if you refuse that job you forgo your benefits, and that is really important.”

    “It is not an either/or question. We would be tougher [than the Conservatives]. If they don’t take it [the offer of a job] they will forfeit their benefit. But there will also be the opportunities there under a Labour government.”

    Harriet Harman: Labour Party Interim leader July 2015 on Welfare cuts:
    Labour will not vote against the government’s welfare bill and should not oppose limiting child tax credits to two children, the party’s interim leader, Harriet Harman, has said, provoking a storm of criticism including from some leadership candidates.

    She said Labour should also not oppose certain conditions in the planned cap on household welfare benefits.

  73. HandandShrimp says:

    I think some are over-analysing the situation

    Many of us with experience have given up looking to Labour for a lead. However, one of the things that kept Labour afloat in Scotland, Wales and the North of England was the notion that if only we could get them into power this time then they will deliver. Three terms Blair had and not a single Thatcher anti-union policy was repealed. I don’t think Corbyn will be PM but I can understand younger heads being turned and the “maybe this time” once again running through the minds of those on the left looking for a rallying point.

    Corbyn’s anti-single market and anti EU worker stance is the antithesis of where many of us want to go. If, as seems likely, Brexit is a crock then both May and Corbyn will be left in the wilderness and talking to shadows.

    Cat is already showing an ambivalence to where Labour are going.

    Most of us here are of one mind as to the best course but there are many who can entertain two mutually exclusive desires and swither between the two. It doesn’t mean that Cat is against independence just that she has been distracted by something that shines a lot like a glimmer of hope but is in fact a pale reflection of the real thing.

  74. colin alexander says:

    I agree with Alex Clark.

    Even if some of Mr Corbyn’s Labour policies are copies of SNP policies:

    A vote for Labour is a vote against Scottish independence.

    A vote for Labour is a vote for continued Westminster domination.

    “To win independence it is of vital importance that your vote in any election only goes to a party supporting independence in their manifesto.”


    If only the SNP would stand for independence again, instead of devolution and a possible indyref.

    How I wish I could vote for an SNP manifesto that said:

    A vote for the SNP is a vote for independence:

    Following the election elected SNP representatives will seek a vote by Scottish MPs or MSPS ( whichever election manifesto it is).

    These elected representatives will vote on whether Scotland should be independent. If you elect an SNP MP or MSP they will vote for independence.

    If a majority of Scottish MPs or MSPs vote for independence we will notify the UK Govt of the intention that Scotland will declare the Union has been dissolved and Scotland will become an independent country.

    We will seek negotiations and cooperation with the UK Govt in order to make end of the Union and independence as smooth and efficient as possible.

  75. Robert Graham says:

    Oh Christ the resident clown posts yet more meaningless contradictory bloody pish,

    There seems to be real confusion and conflict going on in this nuts head, now it’s either support Independence or it’s not, attack constantly the only means to that end the SNP for all its faults, contradicts the former, you can’t be both , it’s make yer mind up time, or shut the f/k up please.

  76. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Richard MacKinnon says: “The reason there are so many articles in the press about the independence movement falling apart is because there is a lot of evidence to suggest that is exactly what is happening.

    If you think the Indy movement is falling apart you must be greeting to read the comments on here. What’s happened is that the article has triggered a debate, and debate is very healthy, particularly since the Ref is not next week.

    Sadly for the Unionists there is no similar debate, which is why the Union will fail, and Independence will prevail.

  77. Undeadshuan says:

    Has anyone else Called virgin media to complete that mobilise site is blocked?

  78. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…attack constantly the only means to that end the SNP for all its faults…”

    On the mobilise scotland site the SNP are looking for our ideas to help end the Toxic Union with England. I think that is to be commended.

    One of my suggestions was that this should be a genuine Peoples’ Movement and not be hijacked and promoted by the colonial media as an SNP initiative/project like they did in IndyRef14. That must be avoided. It’s a People’s Movement and, as such, the SNP must take a much lower profile than they did in IndyRef14 i.e. let other non-party affiliated folks take the lead in TV debates and so on. Imagine, for example, Professor Richard Murphy (an Englishman) arguing the economic case for an Indy Scotland rather than Stephen Gethins (who I think would do a cracking job also btw).

    How would the meida be able to handle that? He’s not SNP and he’s English. How can they portray the vile cybernats as English-hating Brigadooners when they have a top-noth English bloke speak for them?

    “I’m not a member of the SNP, never have been but I think you’ll be way better off if you take charge of your own affairs again,” says Mr Murphy (hypothetically). Even hard-nose blue Tories might even listen to someone like that. You see what I’m saying? This needs to be about what right FOR SCOTLAND and ALL ITS PEOPLE. NOT about the SNP.

    And so, while the SNP clearly have a vital and pivotal role in securing the termination of the Union, they should take a back seat in terms of the debate and let others like Craig Murray, Paul Kavanagh, Prof. Murphy, hell even Cat Boyd take the reins in the TC debates. IMO.

    Imagine it, the Big Indy18 Debate Live from the BBC – Cat Boyd v Alsitair Darling.


  79. Wullie B says:

    I always felt the way that RISE came to prominence in the media they were not true independence supporters but had jumped on that bandwago along with dare I say it the Green Party and their 1 million signatures before supporting another referendum.
    All either have done is split the vote just like all three unionist parties erode each others votes, the same can now be said ofRISE and Green PArty stripping votes from the SNP who are the only true party to support independence.
    In fact I have always thought that the Greens got concessions from the SNP about the fishing industry, with the amount of Special Areas of Conservation (S.A.C.s) and Marine Protected Areas (M.P.A.s)that Richard Lochhead tried to push through without listening to all sides of the story, many other fishermen felt the same way and it was due to this they left the SNP and went Blue. Yes its speculation and hearsay but up until that point the SNP were big supporters of all sectors, now its feels like it is just the smaller creel boats they want.
    but back on topic, I never trusted KAt Boyd opr the others of RISE or R.I.C and a lot of their supporters were telling SNP voters to give themthe second vote, they never earned it but begged for it when we all should have voted SNP x 2 during last Holyrood election

  80. Vestas says:

    Been saying this for a long time now but Boyd is in this for one person – herself. Nothing inherently wrong with that although it shows her up as being very facile.

    She’s one of several “indy-but” hacks being promoted by the MSM (BBC/Grauniad/etc). By “indy-but” I mean its not really in their personal interests for indy to happen as they wouldn’t be getting paid by the MSM anymore.

    Not a surprise (to me) this is happening….

  81. Alastair says:

    The Cats got the screen.

  82. heedtracker says:

    Robert Graham says:
    12 August, 2017 at 2:41 pm
    Oh Christ the resident clown posts yet more meaningless contradictory bloody pish,

    Colin A is a very YES voter, he just wants everyone to stop voting SNP now because, umm…

    Cat Boyd is a very YES voter, she just wants us to vote Lab now because, umm…

  83. Hamish100 says:

    Surely Cat Boyd in her radical phase supported a party wishing to remove nuclear weapons from the Clyde definitely, well maybe, oops we need them if other folk have them but we wont use them.

    How radical is that.

    Please no more apologists. If you want to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland we need to be independent. Self determination is the way. A 70 yr old man from London England won’t do it nor will anyone who takes over from him.

  84. Capella says:

    @ HanandShrimp – I forgot – should have added anti immigration to the Labour charge sheet and pro austerity.
    What a catalogue of nasty policies.

  85. ahundtedthidiot says:

    I know its hard to understand. Difficult to grasp maybe. Beyond some peoples comprehension…….or, it’s very simple.

    Cast each and every vote, regardless of the forum, for the SNP.

    We can argue later.


  86. Proud Cybernat says:

    Oi Dick – read it and weep…

    If the dictator’s cap fits

    “Ruth likes to dress like a dictator, it’s no surprise she acts like one too. The vain, self-regarding and deeply flawed Ruth Davidson is the Unionist establishment’s only remaining hope of saving the UK, and they’re going to protect her. This latest dispute is far more serious than a Twitter dispute between non-party Yes supporters, this goes to the very heart of how the Scottish Conservatives are led and run. It goes to the very heart of democratic accountability in Scotland. Yet you can bet that it won’t receive a fraction of the coverage received by a Twitter dispute within the Yes campaign.”

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Nukes is the easiest issue of the lot, and personally I’m neither for nor against (or just don’t feel strongly, don’t really care either way).

    The UK will not get rid of its nukes, neither will it move them out of Scotland. So vote NO to stay in the UK, and the nukes stay for the next 20, 30, 50, 100 years.

    Independent Scotland will not be able to keep the nukes even if we wanted to, so vote YES for Independence and the nukes go, 100% definitely, whether in a few months or 10 years, they go.

  88. Proud Cybernat says:

    What they left out…

  89. Macart says:

    There’s no middle ground here. It’s either Holyrood or Westminster. Independence and self governance, or continued democratic deficit and the surrendering of your rights to those who simply couldn’t give a shit whether you exist or not and couldn’t find your home without the aid of a GPS and a six man safari.

    It’s the stewarding of your own resources and a government which you elect, or having others steward your resources through a government you don’t elect and who is ultimately not accountable to you.

    At this point in time PARTY POLITICS IS NOT AN OPTION. People need to realise that the SNP are a vehicle, an instrument, for change as well as a party of government. If it helps folk who normally place their vote elsewhere, don’t look at them as a party, but as a means to an end. You do not need to be an SNP member or supporter to recognise that right now, at this particular period in time, they are the best chance, the ONLY chance the people of Scotland have of being given a constitutional choice. A choice NO other party would EVER be willing to give our population and most certainly not the sainted Jeremy.

    If they lose their place or influence in any way shape or form over the next parliamentary term, then the real losers will be Scotland’s population and no one else. For we will have rejected the right and the opportunity to choose for ourselves.

    It’s often said that running your own country is for grown ups. I agree. It’s time for some folk to grow up now. If they want a system of government where their voice will be heard, with a written and codified constitution, a progressive, inclusive and outward reaching internationalist aspect, then it’s only going to happen one way.

    ALL of us together.

    The SNP are the key to a locked door. All folk need to agree upon is turning that key and stepping through the door. What folk do on the other side is the grown up bit.

  90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Alex Clark @ 13:39:

    If those that chose to support Labour in Scotland had instead voted SNP and Labour had lost their last remaining seat I think they would have had no choice other than to ditch their opposition to Independence

    Very true that. In fact that was the very outcome that many of us expected, which is why it was such a disappointment that it didn’t happen. Because there are still people like Cat Boyd around that are foolish enough to be willing to give Labour yet another “one last chance”. Passive enablers of a serial misbehaver.

    Some of us have been around long enough to have learnt from bitter experience that Labour and the Tories have this nice little game of musical chairs going that suits them both very nicely. But no-one else, mind, though they don’t give a damn about that. And so nothing much changes. As someone upthread pithily said, two cheeks of the same posterior.

    The lesson is absurdly simple: if you really want things to change, act differently and stop repeating your old ways, somehow expecting the result to be different just because you wish it so.

  91. HandandShrimp says:

    I think the most notable thing about the recent press coverage is how utterly desperate the press are for there to be some sort of fundamental schism within the Yes movement. If we were withering on the vine they wouldn’t give a damn what a couple of people who were part of the wider Yes movement (something they always denied exited) think.

    I don’t think we should give it much credence. When Brexit crashes around our ears in 18 months and realisation of what entails sinks in then the political landscape will look very different. 2020 is now freed up with the GE moved to 2022.

  92. yesindyref2 says:

    As always Macart, words of wisdon.

  93. Hamish100 says:

    BBC Scotland web page implying that there is a major housing issue over the military in Scotland. You then scrape the surface of their report

    It is a English parliamentary committee criticising the military and private landlord who now own the army navy etc homes across England, Scotland Wales and NI

    Would you think that from their posting? Of course not.
    Now compare each of the home nations lead stories for today.
    Then here is the actual report
    Spot the concerns over Scotland?

    BBC Pacific quay clearly manipulating the news. Somewhere in its PQ depths they decided to do this.

    Please Scottish Government bring the offenders to book in a parliamentary session to explain.

    BBC are liars

  94. Sunniva says:

    The kindest thing to say about Cat Boyd is that being young, she is naive and misguided in trusting Labour. I commend her for her honesty in admitting to it, but you cannot be a British socialist and a Scottish independista. Labour is fundamentally opposed to Scottish independence, and will never advance it.

    Even British socialism, when it existed, as per the nationalisation of Scottish industry, did much damage to Scotland and to Scottish interests long term.

  95. Foonurt says:

    Hauns up, if yuv ivurr votit rid-tory, noo urr past. Urr votit musturt-tory, urr yoan blue wan.

    Ah, thurr wae huvit.

    Whit dae thurr three clones, huv agin yoan SNP?

    Thoan Ross Greer’s, kinnah baw-heidit anaw.

    Ah, Wallace’s Bickering Bush.

  96. yesindyref2 says:

    @RJS / Alex
    It’s possible that Cat Boyd and those like her, hoped that by voting Corbyn and Labour in the 2017 GE and making an open point of it, they’d sway Labour in Scotland over to support Indy, or at least not oppose it. Same for McKenna. There are people who still haven’t given up hope for Labour. Whether that’s wise or not is up to them to decide I guess. Many have decided Labour are a no-hope.

  97. dakk says:

    All Yoons,and incipient Yoons like Catriona Boyd(the MSM wouldn’t waste time on her if she wasn’t ripe for betrayal) defining trait is they love being patronised by rich Englishmen.

    I can almost picture her dancing round singing Jambo Bwana to all the editors and producers newly come into her orbit.

  98. Macart says:


    The rush mat is sore on the bum and incense goes right fur ma sinuses though. 😉

  99. Robert Peffers says:

    @Steven Roy says: 12 August, 2017 at 12:30 pm:

    ” I don’t think in my entire life I have met someone who was opposed to nuclear weapons and then changed his/her mind. If he is capable of a u-turn on that he is capable of a u-turn on anything.”

    Then you have not been looking too hard, Steven.

    It is quite common among Labourites to be either members or former members of CND and then, when in power at Westminster, to change to being in favour of Trident and Trident renewal.

    I have often argued with such people and their claims are really ludicrous. It usually goes along the same lines as propounded by Corbyn. They claim to be in favour of nuclear disarmament but only if it is a universal disarmament so the excuse is that unless such as Russia and North Korea agree to disarm then Labour will continue to oppose unilateral nuclear disarmament.

    This, of course, allows the Labour Party manifesto to claim all three stances – nuclear disarmament, nuclear retention and nuclear replacement of older deterrents if universal nuclear disarmament has not occurred.

    The old saying includes that you cannot fool all of the people all of the time – but if you are a desperate enough YoonYoonist party you most certainly can bloody well try.

  100. galamcennalath says:

    I think as a generality, and over time, the SNP might be hedging their bets between the two roads to Indy. By that I mean gradually getting more and more powers until de facto Indy is achieved versus a faster route where we say YES and leave quickly.

    Certainly the gradual approach has worked to an extent, but we are maybe a third of the way. Scotland is recognised as a nation to a much greater extent than it was, everywhere.

    The gradual route requires that the SNP be seen to be able to offer good devolved governance and by extension Scots are seen to be able to do it themselves. This means our gradual route to Indy has been paved with party politics.

    However, with Brexit the drive to slowly gain more powers has stalled. In fact it may be about to go into reverse. Also, I reckon all three Unionist parties see further devolution as leading to independence so aren’t keen. You could say they too recognise there is a gradual route.

    It does look like the gradual route is rapidly being closed off leaving only the ‘big bang’ of a referendum, YES vote, and leaving.

    If that analysis is correct, then we need IndyRef2 and everyone committed to Indy needs to focus on the prize. The radical left, and others, need to sort out their priorities. And maybe the SNP too needs prioritise Indy over the day job. It may be soon, or never.

  101. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah oom! or rather Om!

  102. Andy-B says:

    It’s Cat Boyd’s choice of who she votes for, however being a public figure, and one who at one point supported independence. She could’ve at least given her reason/s why she voted for Labour. It sounds like she’s no longer in favour of independence her choice of course.

  103. Macart says:


    In the words of the great Keanu… Whooaaaaa.

    Blast from the past. 😀

  104. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lennie says: 12 August, 2017 at 12:47 pm:

    “She’s a hardcore socialist. She’s a trade union activist, specifically for UNITE who are affiliated with Labour and party’s biggest financial donor.”

    You are, of course, wrong, Lennie.

    I am a democratic socialist and a trade unionist during my entire adult life. I shop-stewarded for over 15 years and unofficially stewarded for many more years when our mixed trade workshop was not large enough to have an official EETPU representative. I was with the EEPTU, who were one of the unions that formed Unite.

    During my over 15 years stewarding I also did the work of the stewards from the various other trades who had members working in the workshop that involved several electrical, electronic, engineering groups along with skilled and unskilled labourers.

    Throughout that entire time I made no secret of my membership of the SNP and my support for Scottish independence. What I was NOT was a supporter of the Unionist Labour party and even less so when Labour became NuLabour under Tony Blair & Gordon Brown.

  105. Brack the barbarian says:

    Hi excellent summing up but everyone seems to be politely ignoring the elephant in the room. You cannot have both independence AND Jezza, it’s a logical impossibility. When independence comes the most the head of an English Labour Party could do is to send fraternal greetings to his opposite number in Scotland.

  106. Snode1965 says:

    Robert Peffers…
    I have also been a member of the EEPTU,A EU,T&G and UNITE.
    What is undeniable is the fact the we are funding a Unionist organisation.

  107. donnywho says:

    Tiny drone lands on Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier… It has to be noted that as it has no aircraft the moment it landed The Queen Elizabeth II became the largest “Drone Carrier” ever built.

    Another Great British First a £2bn carrier for a £200 drone, how well thought out!

  108. Tom says:

    I agree with the Rev, but defend Cat Boyd’s right “to make (her) choice”. As, to be fair, did the Rev. In which case, why pick her arguments apart just because she did? These things are complicated and, although I am pretty monochrome in my pro-indy views, others are less so.

    My neighbour is English, has worked and raised a family in Edinburgh, but is 100% pro Scottish independence. Indeed, he was responsible for one of those giant landscape YES signs that seemed to sprout up overnight all around Edinburgh in the run up to IndyRef1. But he voted Labour in the snap election (so, holding his nose, for Ian Murray!) because he still has family and friends down south and, in this election, didn’t want to “abandon them to the Tories”.

    Was he wrong? Now, I’m sure the Rev could put together a wall-argued case that he was, but what good would it do to hold him to account, publicly or otherwise, for being, in the Rev’s opinion (as well as mine), wrong?

    The fact that Cat Boyd has a public platform for her views doesn’t make her less-entitled to express them, or less-entitled (in the view of others) to be wrong.

    Is the indy movement better for her contribution to the big debate? Of course it is. Will she vote for independence when the opportunity again presents itself? Of course she will. Will my neighbour be constructing YES signs on Edinburgh castle rock, or wherever it was last time, when IndyRef2 comes around? You betcha.

    Meantime, we don’t always have to challenge people who are, after all, on our side, just because they are, in our opinion, a wee bit ‘less pure’ than ourselves. It’s unnecessarily defensive.

    Let’s save our time and energy to challenge those who really are ‘on the other side’.

  109. Balaaargh says:

    Bang on, Rev.

    59 second places gives you nothing at Westminster. And the Unionists would love nothing more than to forget us and go back to their wishful thinking that they can continue slurping from the trough if they lick the right arsehole.

  110. Macart says:


    Good grief!

    Apparently a £2bn asset with a point defence system consisting of a rating using harsh language.

  111. donnywho says:

    BBC headline:- Budapest honours Extermination Camp Scot. Could you make it sound worse.

    This is the body of the piece. Jane Haining will be the focus of a new exhibition in the Holocaust Memorial Centre in Budapest.

    Spokesman Zoltan Toth-Heinmann said the Church of Scotland missionary, who grew up in Dunscore, near Dumfries, was a “unique and important” figure.

    He said her inspirational story had been “neglected” in the city.

    As matron at the Scottish Mission school in Budapest during the 1930s and 40s, she refused to return home despite advice from church officials, saying the children needed her in the “days of darkness”.

    She was arrested in 1944, charged with working amongst Jews and taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp in Nazi-occupied Poland, where she died aged 47.

    Death Camp Scot features in Hungarian Holocaust Memorial, that is worse. Can anybody better that?

  112. Street Andrew says:

    Whether or not Jeremy Corbyn might be ‘a good thing’ for South Britain is debatable. Ideally it would be irrelevant to Scotland and it remains unlikely that that he will ever reside in No10.

    If and it’s a big IF he does get to be PM I think he realises full well that he will have about as much actual authority over his party and the government as Donald Trump has in the US – not much.

    I think it was Spiro Agnew (?) who said the office of Vice President of the US was not worth a cup of cold sick. Donald Trump I think has discovered that the Presidency itself is worth precisely that.

    Thatcher and Blair in their turns gave the impression that they were governing and leading events whereas in reality they were being pushed willingly in a direction they were prepared to travel. The direction of travel is decided by the establishment forces who remain anonymous and are generally dismissed as the figments of the conspiracy blogger’s fevered imagination.

    That ‘deep state’ position does not change quickly, but it will change as the Scottish contingent begin to see that their own best interests (the only important consideration) are not being served from London.

    Brexit may well be a significant influence. The way it is shaping-up so far it could be decisive as the relatively few people who can genuinely afford to vote Tory in Scotland (most simply don’t qualify except in aspiration) begin to realise that they are invisible to WM and going to be shafted.

    Indyref2 will rubber stamp the shift. As much as democracy was ever intended to provide – an endorsement of policy.

    Cynical? Possibly.

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    @donnywho / Macart

    And this quote from an MoD spokesperson : “We take the security of HMS Queen Elizabeth very seriously. This incident has been reported to Police Scotland, an investigation is underway and we stepped up our security measures in light of it.

    So – Police Scotland are going to be the security for the QE? Oh dear.

    She’s not commissioned yet so would have no CIWS (Phalanx), whether that would be capable of picking up and picking off a drone, no idea. But when I looked at marinetraffic earlier in the week, she was sailing around with no apparent escort, which did surprise me.

    Very careless.

    Pathetic in fact.


  114. mike d says:

    Pam Duncan glancy says ‘time for another mp fighting for Glasgow North,not another referendum. Would that be a liebor mp by any chance?.and here’s me at 64 yrs old remembering that liebor done absolutely f**k all for Scotland,except line their own pockets. Wake up Scotland ffs.

  115. Street Andrew says:

    Cat Boyd…(?)

    Rings a bell.

    Got it… The Cat Bird Seat. James Thurber. Like a batter with three balls and no strikes.

    Some lady! Sitting pretty, but with three balls perhaps not very comfortably.

  116. You cannot be a little bit pregnant.
    You are either for Scotland returning to being an Independent nation, or you are not.
    This young woman is not.
    Of course the Yoon MSM invite her along to talk rubbish about Corbyn being the saviour of Socialism, and rubbing all our Nat-faces in it from GMS/Reporting Shitland, to headlines on the covers of all the now nakedly fascist dailies.
    Doubtless she’s making a few bob out of it too.
    What she is not is a defender of Scotland, a champion of our poor and disenfranchised, and given that Murdo and Ruth and Prof Two Jobs tweet in support of her, she has strange Rape Clause Reward the Rich Kill The Poor supporters.
    She is neither naïve or being taken out of context.

    A Corbyn Government would have over 200 neo liberal new conservative Blairites in it, the same crew that joined with the Blue Tories and the Yellow Tories in voting through £25 billion in cuts to public services, disabled and infirm allowances and introduced the Two Children and you starve cap on Tax Credits.Chuka, Yvette, and Tom wait patiently for nature to take its course and 69 year old Jezza succumbs to decrepitude or dementia. Time is on their side. The Blairites will triumph any day soon now.
    Maybe McAlpine should have a word with her?
    You are correct, Stu. She is a ‘nobody’ whom the Dead Tree Scrolls and Jackie Bird would gleefully transform into a ‘somebody’ as long as she continues to assert that we’d be Better Together with any WM Party which formed an Administration Down There, and continued to oppress and subjugate her fellow Scots citizens.
    I’m sure when she checks her bank statements and notes all that juicy moolah coming in from her articles and appearance money, she anguishes over the plight of the half million Scots living in poverty, and the additional 5000 Glaswegians who die prematurely each year because of neglect from 50 years of Labour Local Government and a WM Parliament of all Yoon hues, a UK system which continues to rob us of our natural resources and punish Scotland for having the temerity to want to ‘take back control’.
    She is a nobody, let this be the last word on this.

  117. Scott says:

    Reporting Scotland just now.

    FOI from SNP to Ministry of Defence.

    That was show on the screen is that a first as I have never noticed it before about Tory,Lab or LIB.FOIs

  118. Alex Clark says:


    That was a good and interesting post, however I totally fail to see how your English supporting friend who is “100% pro independence” thought that by supporting Jeremy Corbyn that it could in any way further the cause of Independence.

    It can’t and it won’t.

    I can fully understand his position that “he still has family and friends down south and, in this election, didn’t want to abandon them to the Tories”. That to me makes him appear lukewarm to Independence at most and it’s more the UK that his concerns lie with. Totally understandable though in his circumstances.

    The best thing, in my view your friend could have done was try to unseat Ian Murray, not vote for him. The sole Labour MP until 2017. Because I believe that would have been a great stride towards Independence. Labour in Scotland would have imploded without a single MP being elected which would surely have been followed by Independence.

    Then once Scotland becomes Independent and shows how left of centre policies can be made to work it would have shown to your friends family in England that we have not abandoned them, rather we have shown them the light and the way forward.

    Independence in Scotland will have just as big an effect in the rest of the UK as it will here, their eyes may be opened to the reality of what is going on and that Tory policies are just a great big LIE. That both main parties represent the establishment, read my post at 2.35pm today to see how far left some of those elected to cabinet are. In fact I’d appreciate it if you show it to your friend.

    I’d like to think you might help persuade him that the very best he can do for those in the South is to help Scotland gain her Independence and then show the rest or the UK that there is another and better way to achieve their goals.

    First we need Independence and we don’t get nearer to that goal by voting for Unionist parties who are totally opposed.

  119. Dr Jim says:

    Trident: Scotland: Target:

    They didn’t put it here because they were doing us a favour
    they put it here because Scotland and the Scots are expendable

    or it would be in Inglind where they could boast about it…
    like Wimbledon

    Then when we complained they screamed Jobs Jobs Jobs, Oooh Wow!
    The Poll tax brought us Jobs too Wow!

    The minute Kim Jong Twerp has got a missile that’ll reach Scotland watch our one Nation British cousins runnin for the border before even putting on their Nikes while we’re buying sticky tape for oor windaes, because that keeps you safe, that and hiding under a table

    If you’ve got one that is, if not take a door off its hinges and pose so you’ll leave a good pattern on it after


  120. Ottomanboi says:

    The likes of Boyd need to learn, and learn quickly, that British politics and Scottish politics do not mix. They have quite different trajectories. The former is a prisoner of its supremacist, exceptionalist history the latter is not. We have the option of ditching the heavy, extraneous baggage of the failed BritState and making our own way in the world. Despite the rhetoric even the most radical BritState politicians are chained by their unionist, anglocentric heritage. We are not. British is poison. Independence is the antidote.

  121. mike d says:

    Re cat boyd. Corbyns vision of socialism will be exactly the same as ‘ phony blairs.Once elected. In the pocket of the big corporates. Personally i think most Scottish unionist voters should stick to watching,Britain’s got talent.

  122. Alastair says:

    So Cat you support Gordon Jeromy Brown Corburn with a much more potent new potential VOW it’s easy when it worked the last time to polish it up again. After all we trusted Gordan, we trusted Alistair and Alistair (lier lier pants on

    fire excuse for a man) let’s put the cards on the table – Establishment, privelige V the honest people of Scotland. Get on side!!!

  123. mike d says:

    Dr jim 5.40, only consolation if Kim jongs missiles reach Scotland. They’ll reach the home counties lol.Sh*t there was me getting my state pension in may.A well sh*t happens.

  124. Albamac says:

    Robert J Sutherland says:
    “Some of us have been around long enough to have learnt from bitter experience that Labour and the Tories have this nice little game of musical chairs going that suits them both very nicely”

    Aye, Robert. They’re shapeshifters.

  125. Clootie says:

    …why do we always end up with sub-groups of the Independence movement demanding the shape and substance be settled “first”.

    The right to self determination comes first…the people will decide the shape later. Why must the left, greens, Brexiteers etc fight their battles now. The destiny of future generations of Scots is far, far more important than their petty party politics.

    Why not trust the people to make the right choice when they have it. At present any sensible social or environmental arguement is defeated by the majority – the selfish little Englanders of this island.

    Corbyn like Blair will dance to the tune of the Empire and those who really run the obscenity we refer to as the UK.

  126. Bill McLean says:

    Heard on BBC Radio Scotland after the footie finished a news headline that Alex Salmond has criticised SNP handling of Michelle Thomson case. Didn’t hear it all too clearly as the boss was yacking! Needs some investigation.

  127. mike d says:

    Donnywho 5.19pm. “Honours extermination camp scot “.makes her sound like a guard. But that’s those insinuous bbc b*****ds again.

  128. Terry says:

    I read my latest CNd newsletter with interest. What were they going to make of the election? Good for them. They’ve stuck by the.snp as the only party who can rid us of nukes. Shame the pretend left wingers can’t admit nor see that.

  129. Valerie says:

    In my opinion, this is one of Stu’s masterclass in hypocrisy.

    No one cares what Boyd, and the cappuccino commies vote – that’s their right. It’s the stunning hypocrisy and bullshit, and getting high profile Unionist platforms, as soon as they play into the hands of the propaganda merchants.

    Posing as grassroots urban warriors, then supporting Blairites, that choked Scotland when they had hold of the reins. So much of Slabs disgusting antics have been revealed since 2014, I’d rather stab my eye, than vote Labour.

    As GA Ponsonby pointed out, since the Common space attack on WoS, they are now all appearing on BBC.

    Job done.

    I won’t forget or forgive Haggertys revolting trolling of Mhairi Black either. It’s no wonder they lost two of their best men. Principled journalists.

  130. galamcennalath says:

    Terry says:

    They’ve stuck by the.snp as the only party who can rid us of nukes.

    Realistically, the SNP are the only party who will achieve anything for Scotland this side of Indy.

    The Greens will hopefully contribute to making IndyRef2 happen and campaign for Yes. But not a lot more.

    Every other party is either a negative influence or a bystander.

  131. Legerwood says:

    Is this the same Cat Boyd who admitted on Question Time that she ‘abstained’ from voting in the EU referendum?

    Don’t think she has got the hang of this voting thingy.

  132. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Legerwood @ 18:50,

    Oh yes. The EU is quite unworthy of her bothering to vote. She’s a self-professed “internationalist”, you see.

    I had a word or two to say on that and also her giveaway Labourspeak on “nationalists” on a recent thread which I won’t repeat here:

  133. Legerwood says:

    yesindyref2 @ 5.25pm

    I don’t think the RN have enough ships to provide protection for the carrier.

    A few years ago when the Russian navy was parking up in the Moray Forth area the only ship they had available to send up to investigate had actually been on the way to be decommissioned. It was then it came out that there are times when there is only one ship available to protect the coast around the British Isles.

    Later a CH4 programme about the carriers raised the issue of escort ships for the carriers. Response from someone in the Mod was along the lines of – if we need more ships we will ask neighbouring countries to provide some. Then the UK voted to leave the EU

    I think they should hold onto that drone, it could come in useful!

  134. Meg merrilees says:

    Bill Mc Lean

    As you would imagine, it’s headline news on the BBC Scotland website.
    Salmond criticises SNP over Thomson… situation handled badly by SNP.
    He also criticises the media for their handling of the matter – but we don’t get to know about that at first glimpse.

    You have to read some way through the article before you come to Alex’s explanation that he thinks:
    “There is a point where you have to take action and I happen to believe that’s at the point of charging, dependent on the offence.”

    However, as we’ve already discussed, if the SNP had kept her in the fold they would have been persecuted relentlessly by the biased media. Rock and hard place spring to mind.

    Also, let’s not forget, she removed herself from the SNP whip. ( Perhaps not voluntarily but we’ll never know).

    They also manage to get a scolding comment from that pain Jackson Coleslaw, but the last laugh’s on Alex – another extra night added to the extra run on his Festival show.

  135. Hamish100 says:

    BBC using Alex Salmond to repeat buzz words like police investigation, charges, interviewed etcetera

    They really are the lowest.

  136. Alex Clark says:

    I’ll tell you what I really think, yes it’s another conspiracy theory. These 13 MSM articles solely from one side by the way are an attack on us,

    That’s right the real mainstream Independence supporter, they don’t all read Wings of course but neither do they read Common Space though many will read the printed MSM and listen to the broadcast news and radio.

    So as has been pointed out why have the three main antagonists of this one sided attack been given airspace and column inches?

    Pretty obvious is it not, it suits the overall agenda of the MSM to give them a platform and to try to throw doubt into the minds of those that support Independence but read the likes of Wings that “we are not worthy”.

    We are abusive and when we call them out for their stirring it is with hatred in our hearts that we do so. All lies, no one yet has actually posted an “abusive” comment even from twitter towards any of the three.

    Sure they have been criticised for their views but abuse and criticism are nowhere near the same thing. This website in particular Rev Stu and it’s contributors are abused all the time by so called Yes supporters I could produce hundreds of examples.

    I’m guessing that most are from those that visited briefly, if at all and haven’t read anything if at all. This spat is mainly an attack on Wings, fortunately we tend less and less to fall for these tactics and many totally Independent bloggers came on in support of Wings.

    That has put many faces out of joint and turned their gas down to a peep so the media join in and try to keep it going. Fan the flames.

    You know you are in the right when you read the names of the Unionists retweeting Ross Greers article. Surprised he hasn’t been offered an honour or is not up for a medal at least.

    Let them dish the abuse, else they try and clobber us. Meantime we have our voice here and don’t need a two page spread or 10 minute interview on GMS.

    Wings is truly where the grassroots of the Independence movement is heard. Who gave them “leaders rolls” and voices in the first place and still gives them a platform?

    The MSM that’s who, not to be trusted, not if you want to win.

  137. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, there’s a lot complaining about not enough escorts. Strangely I’m on the MOD’s side on that one, as part of a NATO task force, other members can provide perfectly good escorts, while the UK provides the carriers and the airborne strike force, plus with the Merlins / Wildcats there’s 9 for anti-sub and 40 or 5 for Airborne Early Warning, and the F35-Bs could provide air defence.

    Only if the UK was operating alone would it need to provide full esorts, and there’s barely enough for that, though not really for other duties.

    Yes, on the subject of UK waters defence the RN should provide at least 2 on active duty, to send the message, and that wouldn’t include the OPVs which should be extra.

  138. Bill McLean says:

    Yes, thank you Meg – the jackals of the unionist media strike again. Recently though I have noticed more people fighting back and making BBC Scotland look a laughing stock – who knows but that may be the way to beat the dreadful bunch who pose as journalists!

  139. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I was completely, blissfully unaware of Cat Boyd until I saw her mentioned on here. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

  140. yesindyref2 says:

    @Alex Clark
    In wartime it was a common tactic for an aircraft or ship to “draw the enemy fire” while the rest went about their business virtually free to do so. So for instance an aircraft that had dropped its bombs would fly straight at the flak towers firng at them, allowing a bomber still with load to have a smooth bomb run and drop accurately.

    Unwittingly or otherwise the likes of Greer and Boyd are doing just that, drawing the flak, while Salmond and perhaps McAskill are doing the same, but according to plan.

    In which case, look out for the attack squadron coming unnoticed out of the sun …


  141. colin alexander says:

    “Colin A is a very YES voter, he just wants everyone to stop voting SNP now because, umm…”

    What vote is that then? There are no votes to be held.

    So how can I advise anyone who to vote for or against?

    Thus, your assertion is rubbish.


    The 2017 SNP GE campaign was an attempted re-run of their 2015 campaign. The SNP had nothing new to offer. The result was they lost many MPs and came close to losing nearly all of their MPs.

    Now the SNP appear to want a re-run of the 2014 indyref strategy, even though it was a losing strategy, and politically, things have moved on since then.

    EVEL, The Vow /Smith Commission, EU Referendum that ignored a majority Scottish Remain vote, Brexit and the huge WM power grab of former EU powers, a UK Govt that refused to discuss another indyref being re-elected with help of SLab and the DUP to name a few and a BBC that appears to becoming more and more like a UK version of North Korea’s state run TV.


    Independence should be gained via an election manifesto that says a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. All other policies will be decided via elections etc once that won has been won.


    If the SNP continue with the flawed indyref idea, then I’ve already explained it should be a multiple choice vote that at least offers parliamentary sovereignty for Scotland whether by independence or not.

    Giving Scotland parliamentary sovereignty would empower Scotland’s politicians to end the Union whenever they want, simply by a vote at Holyrood ( following an election mandate). The UK Govt would have no say in the matter.


    Things have moved on. The UK Govt with Labour etc has become more jingoistic than ever before.


    The UK have already upped their game. The UK Establishment no longer just want to buy off the SNP with devolution – even though that has worked to some extent – but because Independists can’t be bought off like that and continue to push the SNP to support independence – the UK Govt want to crush the independence movement altogether and crush the SNP.

    It would be the UK Govt and the (at best inept) (at worst corrupt) Electoral Commission that would control any future indyref. That should already have the alarm bells ringing.

    They aren’t going to play fair. They never have. They never will. It will be rigged as much as possible.

    To pin all hopes on a repeat of 2014 is a bad idea.

  142. Swiss Perspective says:

    Well, whatever we’re doing on this thread, it’s not making the case for independence. Watching a group of Indy supporters rip Cat Boyd appart is not going to impress anyone (at least positively).
    Just state why you think her decision was wrong, but otherwise leave her person alone. Then go back to making a positive case for Scotland’s future.

  143. The 1707 treaty of union was about combining the parliaments of England and Scotland.
    Scotland is a independent country and always has been.
    The Scottish Parliament was recalled in 1999 with our written constitution and claim of rights-giving the Scottish people the right to have a government of their choice.
    Recalling the Scottish executives from Westminster, back to Scotland to dissolve the union of Parliaments is all that is necessary.

  144. yesindyref2 says:

    The SNP as the Scottish Government are clearly going to take the lead on a number of issues for Indy Ref 2, and at this stage nobody knows what the SNP strategy will be, so everything else is just whistling in the wind, or whistling Dixie if you prefer. That includes currency, floating or fixed, any transition, initial central bank reserves plus any plan to increase them over a number of years. That would be subject to cross-party acceptance after a YES vote – same as for Indy Ref 1, as would be the negotiations with the UK Gov.

    It’s also worth pointing out that for Indy Ref 2, same as for IR1, it’s the SG or rather the Holyrood Parliament that appoint the Electoral Commission and that it reports to, and it’s an ADVISORY role, the SG can just plain ignore it, if it wants. But it’s the SG controls and organsises any Ref, through the local councils – all 32 of them.

    Personally I laugh to myself when the Unionists get on about sharing the currency, and get hot and bothered under their collars, because NOBODY KNOWS, and they’re backing themselves into a corner that just isn’t there.

    Heh heh.

  145. Robert Louis says:

    It does seem that their are some who supposedly support indy who see their own self-aggrandisement and ego, as of greater importance.

    I can think of no other rational explanation. Labour stood on a very clear platform of opposing independence, so it is nonsense to then vote for them, whilst still saying you support independence.

    These people are entitled to vote for who they want, but as Rev STU says, they should at least be honest about it, instead of pretending they still support indy.

    You could sum up the mindset of these charlatans in four words ‘It’s all about me’

  146. Alex Clark says:

    The referendum was rigged.

    Independence will only achieved by declaring UDI.

    English voters made us lose the Referendum.

    Old bastards made us lose the referendum.

    Hahaha. All are divisive and none of them true. Standard tactics to get people wound up and arguing against each other.

    Read my first post of Ashcroft polls at 1:39pm where the Ashcroft polls show that 95% of Tory voters voted NO. These are the people to direct our ire against because they don’t care about you or an Independent Scotland.

    It’s good to know that 5% of Tories do support Independence but that is small beer in the scheme of things. It’s a simple fact that more English and 65+ voted for Independence proportionally than did Scottish Tories.

    Could it be that the Tories are the true enemies of Independence?

  147. Rock says:

    The likes of Cat Boyd are opportunists without any principles who are more interested in promoting themselves than anything else.

    The fake “independence suppporting” The National gives space to them to undermine the SNP.

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    As if on cue …

  149. cearc says:

    Alastair, 3.14

    In a nutshell!

  150. Robert Peffers says:

    @Snode1965 says: 12 August, 2017 at 5:04 pm:

    “I have also been a member of the EEPTU,A EU,T&G and UNITE.
    What is undeniable is the fact the we are funding a Unionist organisation.”

    No, Snode, , “WE”, are not. Only those who want to, or are too damned lazy or subject to bullying now contribute to the political levy to the Labour Party. As a steward who does not know that you are remiss and actually breaking the law.


    Legally The Trade Union Political levy is voluntary and any individual member can opt out.

    In my TU rep days the member could also choose to stipulate what political party, or other organisation, that benefits from the individual’s levy.

    It was, back then, in the EETPU rule book but the predominantly Labour party supporting stewards were rather reluctant to inform members of their rights. Not only that but they had to be pressurised to supply the forms to members when requested to do so.

    Then the Government of the day, (after I retired), changed the Law and by that time the EETPU had morphed into Unite.

  151. Bob p says:

    Sorry indyref2. Don’t always 99% agree with rock. But holding my hands up here.

  152. Rock says:


    “As far as I’m concerned Cat Boyd is still a very welcome part of the Indy Movement, unless she says she isn’t.”

    As far as I’m concerned the independence movement would be better off without the likes of Cat Boyd and Michelle Thomson.

    Anyone who supports the get rich quick business practices of Michelle Thomson is a Thatcherite capitalist.

  153. Bob p says:

    8.26pm Alex Clark. Your preaching to the converted

  154. Artyhetty says:

    Careerist, at any cost. Clear as day. Wouldn’t spit on her if she was on fire.

    Eh? ‘Swiss perspective’, @7.57

    The problem here is that this person is in fact cashing in on the back of the case for actual Scottish independence, in the process actually causing and creating divisions, by talking gobbledegook to get attention for herself. Voting for any political party is her choice, but making a lucrative career out of the movement for independence, while voting for a party which is totally against Scottish independence, just seems too contradictory, it makes no sense.

    We have good cause to question her integrity, to be suspicious regards her motives, and to expose any attempts by her or her group, to create divide within the Scottish independence movement.

    After all, the media which is piped into peoples’ living rooms day in day out, and the daily lying rags which are shoved in our faces everytime we go into a shop, are 100% anti Scottish independence. I really don’t think we need more crap from people who supposedly support independence, but who make a living from slagging those who genuinely want Scotland to make it’s own decisions, and not be dictated to by the nasty neighbours next door anymore.

    No thanks.

  155. Alex Clark says:

    Bob p

    Not until your converted Bob it would seem. So work to do yet.

  156. Hamish100 says:


    Same record
    The fake “independence suppporting” The National gives space to them to undermine the SNP.

    And rock also. Away and read your daily record or guardian

    Ps many good articles in the National today that you will know about.

  157. Sunniva says:

    @Alex Clark. I knew a Yes voting Conservative. He voted Yes because that’s what his kids were doing. He figured that it was their future not his, so he voted Yes for them. He’s a really nice guy by the way, very kind, would help anyone.

    So there really are Yes voting Consevatives, though rare.

    Michael Fry the historian was a Tory but is now Yes. I remember having arguments with him about Scottish independence in the 1990s, Chris Harvie as well. Both of them now Yes. People change.

  158. yesindyref2 says:

    @Bob p
    About The National? Headlines today (ignoring off-topic ones):

    ” UK aid is providing clean water for 1.7m people
    UK Government slammed for boasting about £8m Yemen cholera aid … while selling £3.3bn in arms to the people bombing the country”

    “Pat Kane: Scotland and trademarks – is it ok for National Trust Scotland to ‘own’ our culture?” (think about it)

    “Wee Ginger Dug: Tories’ devolution power grab over Brexit is just legalised theft”

    “Brexit pain for holidaymakers with pound to be worth same as euro by 2018”

    “Mhairi Black: Has anybody worked out what Labour’s position on leaving the EU actually is?”

    And a picture of Colonel Ruth with “Nobody’s listening”

    Plus every Letter featured on the front page!

    Are you sure it doesn’t support Indy?

  159. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T .

    Ah wee song fur the Donald .

  160. yesindyref2 says:

    Chust noticed this on The National main page:

    Make sure you pick up today’s edition of The National – available in all good newsagents unless it’s been hidden by Unionists!

  161. Meg merrilees says:

    A car has rammed into opponents at a far-right demo in USA this afternoon.
    All because the Democrats want to take down a statue of General Robert E. Lee who supported slavery and led the Confederate side in the Civil War.

    Jeezo – what’s going wrong in America these days?

  162. mike d says:

    O/t .just remembering the day when my grandparents came to Scotland .Didn’t want them (unwanted irish).off the boat.Then i realised the bigoted liebor we are the peeple didn’t want these fucking Taigs. Unless they voted liebor.
    .Now wos know why Mick d hates these bastards with a venomous hatred.

  163. Peter says:

    Boyd and RISE seem to have a curious connection to ‘labour for independence’ Which puzzles me. LFIs registered address is that of RISE member and candidate Deborah Waters , she is also the treasurer of LFI.
    Were I an Indy minded labour supporter , could I not reasonably assume that LFI was run by labour folks?

  164. Graeme J McAllan says:,_not_the_monkey

    If we regard the Labour Party as the “Organ-grinder”, then the wee Cat lassie is the “performing monkey” 😉

  165. Richardinho says:

    Cat Boyd splitting from the independence movement does seem about the most trivial news story, even during the supposed ‘silly season’, particularly since she’ll presumably still vote ‘yes’ in any upcoming referendum.

  166. Alex Clark says:


    That’s my point of course there are good Tories, not many in my eyes else they wouldn’t vote for Tory policies unless they didn’t really understand what they meant in my view.

    95% of Tories vote for what they believe to be in their own interests even though the facts might disprove that. The real truth is parties are totally irrelevant there is only right v wrong.

    Both Tories and Labour are wrong in my view in what an Independent Scotland would look like. They are too scared of it.

    An Independent Scotland will be one of the greatest nations on earth to live or be born in. YES I’m that certain but I am bias.

  167. Rock says:


    “And rock also. Away and read your daily record or guardian”

    You have even less credibility than the BBC’s Nick Robinson.

  168. Alex Clark says:


    What’s so surprising the LFI supported RISE?

    Absolutely nothing, the leader of LFI Allan Grogan left Labour and joined the SSP after the referendum and cut up his Labour membership card.

    Incidentally although asked to stand for RISE in his hometown as a candidate, he declined. He was totally against the idea of RISE and couldn’t believe how stupid it was for the SSP to do such a thing. He resigned from the SSP.

    It should be of no surprise whatsoever that true socialists from Labour would want to remain on the left and not join say SNP doesn’t mean though that those remaining are all without principles.

  169. John Jones says:

    As a far left wing socialist all my working life, I would love to see Jeremy in no 10, for England. I have always been an SNP voter, not because they reflect all my beliefs but it is the only way to achieve independance, which would then enable the true wishes of the country as to what government we get.
    It is time that labour voters took a serious look at what happens when England decides that Toryism is the way to go, We’re landed with it no matter how we voted.
    Send the message, get the SNP candidates into power & stop bad mouthing people who hold, no matter how misguided, other views.
    It only makes us look bitter & a stick for the yoons to beat us with.

  170. Andy Anderson says:

    I agree with John Jones. All together we can.

  171. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Rock at 8.38

    Please explain (produce some evidence) of the “get rich quick business practices” of Michelle Thomson.
    Do you mean she worked for a property development company doing exactly what all property development companies do ie buying up run down or deteriorating property, repairing or doing it up and then putting it on the market?

  172. crazycat says:

    @ Alex Clark

    I seem to remember that when LfI were talking about a “comeback”, Allan Grogan couldn’t be part of it because he is no longer a member of the Labour Party.

    Therefore, however natural it might be for RISE and LfI to support each other, the officers of the latter should not be actual members of the former.

  173. heedtracker says:

    John Jones says:
    12 August, 2017 at 9:46 pm
    As a far left wing socialist all my working life, I would love to see Jeremy in no 10, for England.

    He’s not the answer for England either. JC’s socialism is what Thatcher was the tory answer to.

    And then tories like Blair and Brown were farted into the world of English centre right voter domination.

    All the JC’s good for is pulling contemporary English tories back a bit. Keep in mind how much England votes tory.

    The only way forward, progressive England wise, is much too radical for all the English parties left and right, scrapping the Lords, German style UK wide federation government. Even if change like that would probably be the end of Scottish independence. Its just never going to happen.

    Keep in mind JC used to say vote JC and he’d scrap the Lords. And then this,

    Wee Ginger Dug’s pointed out today that the Scotch tory creep show, made up this profound tory loser to the Lords and very serious power. What’s the difference between Colonel Ruth and Corbyn, other than JC’s staggering hypocrisy?

    Lord Neil Kinnok used to tell us to vote Lab and they’ll scrap the Lords too. Now they are all sitting in it.

    This is all why Boyd’s fitting in rather well, in to the English political game of smoke and mirrors.

  174. Breeks says:

    I think folks are over thinking the Cat Boyd issue.

    Cat Boyd voting Labour in Theresa’s election is no greater a sin than the SNP hardly bothering to contest the same election. The last General Election was seen by a lot of people, not just Cat Boyd or the SNP, as something of an irrelevance to Independence, when there wasn’t much at stake. It was a “free vote” which promised little of an consequence. We were all a little guilty of that complacency weren’t we?

    With Independence formally ring fenced as “off the agenda”, then what exactly did people expect the result to be? Labour seemed doomed by their meteoric trajectory into the wilderness, and vote for them wasn’t going change much about anything.

    I don’t know what’s inside Cat Boyd’s head, but seeing her pilloried and roundly condemned seems unlikely to win over many converts from No to Yes.

    Nevertheless, Cat Boyd I can kinda understand, and understand while not having my own Independence aspirations feeling threatened. Much more dangerous in my opinion is the SNP’s aversion to taking any initiative over Independence, and failing to provide forward momentum for the campaign.

    I just do not understand the logic of throwing away concessions to Brexit which to me seem like meat and drink to a constitutional dispute which cannot be reconciled within the Union. Why are we trying to make the Union work? Our Scottish remain vote was a sovereign choice democratically expressed! Why was Theresa May’s “Brexit means Brexit” rhetoric not met with the ebullient constitutional certainty that Remain in Scotland meant exactly that, and was a binding decision underwritten with Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty?

    We seem afraid to leave the Scottish electorate with a binary choice between Independence in Europe, or obscurity as a minor appendage to an increasingly small minded and irrelevant UK.

    It worries me greatly that we all seem to expect Brexit is going to deliver some fearful watershed issue which is going to agitate the population to rise up and rebel against their Union. I just don’t see it. This is Scotland, where the TV and the damned BBC can mollify our outrage when our oil is stolen, when a majority for devolution is overturned, when our country is a guinea pig for Thatcher’s poll tax, and when Rosyth gets royally shafted when it wins orders from Devonport. We all know the list…

    So Brexit is going to shite all over Scotland is it? Wow. What’s new? Another outrage bigger and badder than McCrone? Well, you’re going to have to tell me why this forthcoming demeaning of Scotland is any different from the other decades of ritual shite we’ve been forced to live with. See the tradition is that Westminster shites on Scotland, Scotland grumbles a bit, then glumly settles down to get on with it. Brexit will be different! Aye. A fate worse than a fate worse than death? as Blackadder put it. Aye, that’s pretty bad.

    To break the mould, and we do need to break the mould, means getting access to broadcasting, and going firm on constitutional benchmarks beyond which there can be no compromise. The SNP may not admit defeat, but they are acting defeated.They seem to have neither the ideas nor the appetite to take on the BBC or the constitutional issues which cannot be left unresolved.

    Even throughout 2013 and 2014, I never felt so despondent and bleak about our chances. We’ve attacked Radicle Independence, we’ve attacked the Independence credentials of the Greens, we’ve left YES running on idle for two years, and we seem to have boiled Independence down to a matter of “any other business” tagged on to the bottom of the UK’s Brexit agreement. The logic is to win over doubting voters??? Can somebody remind me how we plan to do that?

    If you want to win over the doubting voters, you’ve got to command the agenda and be the team that’s on form and has all the answers. Please stop this confounded game of pass the parcel, where we cannot plan ahead for next week until we’ve unwrapped the latest round of issues from this week. It’s pedestrian, insipid, it’s devoid of imagination, strategy, and initiative, and it is courting defeat.

    Go ahead, see me tarred and feathered as an SNPbad mouthpiece. Whatever floats your boat. I simply don’t understand the SNP’s strategy, but for the life of me, I cannot reconcile that frustration as being my deficiency rather than theirs.

  175. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Alex Clark –

    Cheers for the reminder about the whole Allan Grogan episode.

    I’d somehow managed to wipe it entirely…


  176. Gary45% says:

    Cat who?, David Torrance who? yesterdays budgie cage tray.
    On a serious note, popped into my local German multi national grocer/ beer seller today after a wee sortie into town to see our local Indy yes2 stall.
    At the till I noticed some inbred had removed the pages in I think the Daily “Nadzi” or similar to about page 6 which showed a picture of the lad who killed his brother, if anyone saw the page it showed the “killer” wearing a yes t-shirt then the victim.
    I placed the missing pages back onto the offending shitey rag.
    This was definitely done so the punters would see the offending page.
    This was the work of an inbred piece of shit, because who removes the first couple of pages from a paper?

  177. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I have to say that traditional Labour voting Labour at the GE and traditional Tory supporters voting Tory was almost entirely the fault of the SNP who gave actual SNP supporters, far less Labour and Tory ones, no reason whatsoever to vote SNP.

    The voters in Scotland were presented at that surprise GE with basically a binary choice – Tories in London or Labour in London – as the third choice – neither of them – and an independent Scotland – was never on the table in quite the most ill judged SNP campaign I can ever remember.

    The SNP even managed to imply inadvertently that a vote for Labour was a better idea than a vote for Tory, having the effect of bolstering the Labour vote.

    I wonder if the SNP actually understands that in much of Borders and Highland Scotland there is very solid anti Labour sentiment which is that rather than committed Tory but continued central belt leftish ranting just drives these people away from the SNP.

    We have to reassert the broad church position or we damage ourselves.

  178. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breeks (10.49) –

    Hoots for thought-provoking stuff…

    It’s a shame you expect to get a hard time for stating your take on it all!

    You’ve aired what many of us are thinking, even if we daren’t quite admit it, so, more power to ye!


  179. Alex Clark says:


    Your wrong here crazycat and I don’t get to tell you that often

    Here’s a story of No to Yes that Phantom Powers never can or will film.

    Around March/April 2013 I’m still a NO voter though I have a son approaching 30 years old trying to persuade me otherwise. My issue was I’d always voted Labour and Yes it’s true so had my father.

    We had what I believed to be reasons for that of course, both of us (father) were shipyard workers and never were the Tories to have a look in. However SNP never ever appeared on our radar, they were irrelevant and Independence was a pipe dream.

    So when in spring 2013 I got a letter through the door urging me to support Independence as usual I just laughed and then I saw at the very bottom the logo’s of the SNP, Green Party, SSP and one called LFI. Their logo was distinctive, it was exactly the same as the Labour logo but with a Thistle instead of a Rose.

    Made me think that did, so I looked them up. Their website wasn’t very good as they were new to the game but their vision didn’t seem too bad so I emailed the leader of this LFI, a group I’d never heard of within Labour that actually supported Independence.

    I got an excellent response back from Allan Grogan who was the founder and decided that I would support them and that I wasn’t alone in always voting Labour but could chose this time to support both Labour AND Independence.

    I became a member number 50 something without being a Labour party member the group was open to all both members and supporters though to be a part of the committee then you have to have been a member.

    Now thinking back to pre-referendum in 2013 that did not make me any less committed to Independence than an SNP member or supporter. Of course it didn’t when you consider that 37% of Labour supporters voted in the referendum according to the only poll we have. I actually believed that Independence could be good for Labour in Scotland. The same I think as did most members of LFI.

    After the referendum although heartbroken I wanted to carry on and was not up to give in, my son when I met him on the 19th told me he had joined the SSP that morning. I was was surprised and found it funny that he didn’t join the SNP. He wanted to fight for Independence FROM the left he said and so I too joined the SSP. He can be influential!

    It didn’t work out BECAUSE of RISE. That’s not why we joined, neither of us are a member now. They won’t miss me as I never did much in the way of volunteering but my main point was to support them with the monthly subs and to have a louder voice on the left of the Independence movement. Wasn’t to be.

    I’m pretty sad it didn’t work out as I had a completely different vision, I’ve made every vote since 2012 for the SNP as that is what I know is the best route to Independence.

    I won’t change again though I’m still of the left I believe.

    After all that, here’s where your wrong. You didn’t have to be a Labour party member to be a member of Labour for Independence just a supporter that agreed with their views on an Independent Scotland. That’s what brought me to the fold and let’s not decry it.

  180. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Good post, Alex.

    The main point is that it was the CAMPAIGN FOR INDEPENDENCE that got you on board.

  181. heedtracker says:

    Much more dangerous in my opinion is the SNP’s aversion to taking any initiative over Independence, and failing to provide forward momentum for the campaign.

    Breeks you seem to be missing out the 2014 result and Scots No vote, fundamental vote to not end this farce union. And then Sturgeon rightly called indyref2, with the SNP manifesto pledge, if circumstances change etc, which the English Brexit vote did.

    And that clearly triggered if not 100%, maybe 75% Teresa’s snap GE, building on BBC Scotland’s relentless SNP and ref2 attack propaganda, finishing through with huge very accurate triangulated tory targeting election spends, that successfully took out Salmond and Robertson.

    SNP act, UK gov reacts, and vice versa, and all in the face of that tsunami of BBC led SNP bad, vot Kez or Colonel Ruth attack propaganda.

    This is what has happened Breeks, all in the space of a couple of years.

    If you have a plan, lets all hear it.

    Boyd says she’s a YES vote. Isnt that great:D

  182. crazycat says:

    @ Alex Clark

    Fair enough; I never joined any of them so I wouldn’t know.

    But, I’m absolutely certain that I saw, fairly recently in a piece about LfI’s re-launch, a statement that AG could not be a leader because he was not in Labour, and Labour would not let him rejoin because of his SSP days.

    I’ve tried to find that information; I thought it might have been in the Common Space article about LfI having members in every branch – but it’s not.

    There’s a Herald article about his being preventing from re-joining SLab from July last year, but that’s not it either. It may have been a tweet – in which case I’ll never find it – and it isn’t that important anyway.

    You do, however, say that committee members had to be in Labour, and a treasurer is surely a committee member, so my basic point that it is odd for her to be in RISE instead still stands, I think.

    (Re-reading my post and then yours, I don’t think we are actually disagreeing; it remains true that I remember seeing the statement about AG, and that members of other parties shouldn’t be officials, and your description of your own experience is of course also true. Phew!)

  183. Alex Clark says:


    “Go ahead, see me tarred and feathered as an SNPbad mouthpiece. Whatever floats your boat.”

    That was an interesting way to finish a long well thought out post but let’s look closer at some of what you claim. Is that OK with you?

    “I don’t know what’s inside Cat Boyd’s head, but seeing her pilloried and roundly condemned seems unlikely to win over many converts from No to Yes.”

    Well “pilloried and roundly condemned” by whom? Not here on Wings as far as I can see, sure she’s been criticised for voting for a Unionist party while claiming to support Independence. Is that so wrong?

    “Much more dangerous in my opinion is the SNP’s aversion to taking any initiative over Independence, and failing to provide forward momentum for the campaign.”

    So the SNP have an “aversion to taking any initiative over Independence” despite staring two new websites one raising funds specifically for a referendum and the other seeking ideas of those that support Indeopendence.

    “Our Scottish remain vote was a sovereign choice democratically expressed!”

    Yes, your absolutely right, unfortunately this vote was a UK vote and until Scotland exercises it’s sovereignty to leave the UK it means nothing. A vote of the majority in Scotland to leave the UK is the only thing that can be democratic.

    “So Brexit is going to shite all over Scotland is it? Wow. What’s new?”

    Nothing new so you’ll just have to get off your arse if you want this to change and persuade the people of Scotland to vote Yes won’t you. Pontificating and moaning here ain’t going to do much now is it?

    “We’ve attacked Radicle Independence, we’ve attacked the Independence credentials of the Greens”

    Who are you referring to when you use “we’ve”? If your talking of Wings I know of no attacks that you are spouting about.
    Gies peace.

    You know something Breeks? I don’t think I need your advice, it’s rotten.

  184. Chick McGregor says:

    IIRCC correctly, wasn’t Ms Boyd equally confused on Brexit, to the point where she didn’t vote in the referendum?

    I must confess, after a couple of goes I stopped reading her column in the National way before either ‘confusions’ arose, so am not up to speed with her thinking on things.

  185. Dramfineday says:

    A close look at the last picture of Ms Boyd would reveal a rather frightened look. Perhaps the realisation she was about to sup with the devil….sad really.

  186. donald anderson says:

    The few reforms Jeremiah proposes have mostly been met by the Scottish Government and opposed by his own North British Party.

    I can understand why the yoon press give Cat Boyd the time of day. I cannot understand why the National is paying her to waffle such rubbish. Where has she been all these years and why has she popped up into such prominence now?

  187. Alex Clark says:


    You are right because as I said he had already cut up his card and no longer a member and you couldn’t be on the committee of LFI unless a member of the Labour which I think is fair enough.

  188. Hamish100 says:

    “You have even less credibility than the BBC’s Nick Robinson”

    Nick Robinson has credibility?

    Strange mindset you have rock. Been reading the Scottish xpress or Sunday Post?

    You must wait with baited breath until Monday so you can’t read the National again then complain on here about it. Are you Tom Gordon?

  189. yesindyref2 says:

    I think there were a lot of Indy supporters voted Labour in Scotland to support Corbyn, but they’ll vote YES next time. I also think there were Indy supporters who voted Tory, there always was a right element to the SNP support, and that would include those who are anti-EU voting Tory as a protest. I like Corybyn and would have liked to see the UK with a Labuur government rather than the far right Tories, but still voted SNP, Some didn’t.

    It not only takes all sorts, from a Cat Boyd through an Alex Salmond to a Michael Fry to have voted YES last time, it needs even more to vote YES next time to get a YES majority and Indy.

    So if Cat Boyd represents those who like Corbyn – good. Which is more important, the slim hope of getting a Labour government for perhaps one term and being stuck in the UK when it’s a Tory government – or YES for Indy?

    And it seems she’s wishy-washy on the EU. Well, also good, perhaps she can help get those Indy supporters back to voting YES, because I’ve seen some very angry comments from Indy supporters really hacked off with the SNP and Sturgeon stance on the EU. Well, which is more important, YES for Indy with or without the EU? Or being stuck in the UK wioth its shambles of a Brexit, whether you want Indy or not?

    As for Breeks, it’s clear he speaks for quite a lot of Indy supporters too, and to be perfectly honest, though I have faith the SNP “have a plan and a timetable”, it’d better start soon, because even this native is getting restless and quite – pissed – off. I too want to see the currency plan, the central bank plan, the take on the economy, the negation of the “£15 billion deficit”. And the arguments being made for Indy, not more compromise from the SG over Brexit and the single market. Hello, it’s not working, stand your ground.

    The question I’ve seen some asking is – does the SNP still support Independence?

    Well, do you, punks? Then prove it.

  190. Big Phil says:

    Alex Clark.. you are ace , thepnr was a pussy compared to you. 😉

  191. Macart says:


    Yes, I suspect they have a strategy and a timetable of their own too and no I don’t think support will get to know anything about it till the ball starts rolling. Basically if we don’t know, then the opposition won’t know either.

    What we do know. There has been a commission looking into the currency issue. There have been extensive talks between the SG and EU officials, not necessarily concerning Brexit alone. There has been a new website ‘mobilise’ setup and talks with the SIC arranged. There has been a nationwide survey commissioned and completed. Lastly the parliament has debated and passed the vote on proceeding with legislation to the creation of a new referendum vote and are set to vote down the Brexit ‘deal’ on offer by HMG.

    Some pretty big stuff right there on the known actions. I agree though, on the surface it doesn’t look like it’s enough, nothing for the support to get behind or get it’s blood pumping. That takes a concerted and cohesive campaign which is to all intents and I believe deliberate purposes, is not yet.

    How and ever, I have a suspicion its a case of more happening beneath the surface. Timing is going to be crucial on several counts because the window of opportunity will be exceptionally narrow. That is if the Scottish population are going to have a say on Brexit and the YES movement stand any chance of being ultimately successful.

    The stakes arguably, given the nature of the unfolding omnishambles that is Westminster government, the cliff edge that is Brexit and the alarming rightward isolationist drift that is UK society and government, are even higher than last time out. Last time out we both speculated that in the event of a failure in 2014, a gradualist couple of parliamentary terms of patient persuasion would see a pretty damn good case win the day and a steady, if slow, build in consensual support toward independence.

    As it turns out ‘events dear boy, events’ have made a total arse of that speculation and moved the timetable forward to a crucial choice quite considerably. It seems naked necessity will play the bigger role. Instead of gradually winning hearts and minds, building momentum as it were. Those arrogant fuckwits in Westminster have dropped everyone into an economic and constitutional meat grinder that’s forcing a great many issues of governance and society to come to a head.

    When things do happen though, and the SG start moving to give Scotland’s population the choice they deserve by right, I’d imagine they’ll happen fast.

  192. Breeks says:

    @ Alex Clark 12:12

    Brexit being a UK- wide result just doesn’t wash.

    The rest of the UK can have a consultative referendum, but because the voters are not sovereign citizens, but merely subjects instead, their electoral opinion can be dismissed as a consultative exercise which their Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster can arbitrarily override. That convenience for Westminster ends at the Border, because here, the people of Scotland are sovereign, and when we express an opinion, it is a constitutionally sovereign opinion which neither Westminster nor Holyrood can properly set aside. Whenever they try, we should pull the constitutional rug from under their feet.

    We have the typical UK paradox that Theresa May, who does not have to accept the Brexit Referendum as a binding result, goes out of her way to do just that, declare Brexit means Brexit and the people have spoken. Yet here in Scotland, where our sovereignty should not be challenged overruled because it is SOVEREIGN, we have Westminster saying the UK wide majority is apparently superior to our sovereignty, and our own SNP government can set the sovereignty of the decision to one side and declare a vote to remain in Europe was instead a vote to keep access to the single market and customs union. It’s time to pull that constitutional rug from under them.

    Sovereignty is the one strength we have that can deliver Scotland’s emancipation from this damned Union, but everybody turns away, steps over or bodyswerves the issue of sovereignty like it’s a drunk lying in the middle of the road.

    Nobody has answered my earlier question. If nobody respects Scotland’s sovereign will to remain expressed in 2016, what precedent is there to suggest they will respect the sovereign will of ANY future Scottish referendum? The UK government need only declare that referenda are consultative exercises in the UK and ignore the result.

    In Brexit, we have the rare constitutional convenience of a defining binary issue of a Scottish sovereign decision which Westminster is currently in the process of subjugating. In Brexit we have THE proverbial constitutional test case that can defeat the Union and make it fail. This is not the time for compromise, but a time for resolute adherence to the fundamental principle of sovereignty. We shall not be moved… the people have spoken.

    Get that issue right, get it nailed, and treat that principle as something sacrosanct, then we can finally begin to move forward with ultimate victory assured, and we can be as liberal, inclusive and upbeat as we were in 2014 because the issue is not whether we win, but the manner of how we win.

    The greatest and most damaging concession we can deliver for ourselves, and an unwarranted gift to Unionism, is our acknowledgment of THEIR forlorn capacity for victory. If Scotland grasps hold of Sovereignty, and makes both a NO vote to be just as sovereign as a YES vote, then the concept of Independence actually becomes moot because the Union cannot survive the tear. We do not need anything “new” to be won, only the things we already have to be recognised.

    We cannot win without sovereignty, but merely touch flesh with our sovereignty, then just like the fingertip of lightning in Michelangelo’s Creation of Adam, in that very instant, we will have already won.

  193. Robert Peffers says:

    @Big Phil says: 13 August, 2017 at 2:50 am:

    “Alex Clark.. you are ace , thepnr was a pussy compared to you.

    The whole idea that Labour are on the left on the political spectrum is a false belief and has been since around the 1960s.

    Labour long ago were a party under a false flag. Even Keir Hardie very rapidly joined the Westminster Establishment.

    Look at the still living Labour leadership members of the recent past. How many now sit in the House of Lords and, here’s a thing, how many former Labour Leaders are NOT Knights of the Garter?

    Incidentally, why was Blair not made a Knight of the Garter?

    Far as I can remember he was never offered that Honour my Her Majesty.(a.k.a. The Establishment).

  194. Sinky says:

    LOTS of re writing of history on Radio Scotland GMS just now mainly on roots of Banking Crash 10 years ago.

    BBC going for Gobal Crash and what could the Scottish government do?

    It was the UK regulatory authorities headed by Chancellor of Exchequer Alistair Darling that had the powers to investigate the RBS / AMRO take over but ignored fact that no due diligence was done by RBS on a deal worth £49 billion before they gave its approval for the world’s biggest bank take over deal that brought about the collapse of the Royal Bank.

    Incredibly, the FSA overlooked the rules on capital by allowing Goodwin and RBS to dip below 4%, below the minimum regulatory requirement on capital, to do the ABN Amro deal. So much for relying on the UK regulatory body.

    At the time Fred Goodwin was an adviser to Alistair Darling as Chancellor, and was still a member of a key Treasury body advising Labour months after the banking crisis and quitting RBS.

    Darling learnt no lessons from the collapse of Northern Rock in September 2007, and his March 2008 Budget speech just six months after the first UK bank collapse makes embarrassing reading today: “…we have maintained confidence and stability in the banking system … We have turned welfare into work and borrowing into wealth creation.”

    In a BBC Today Programme Lecture on 2nd May 2012, the Governor of the Bank of England, Sir Mervyn King criticised the lack of action by Alistair Darling and the last Labour government in the earliest days of the banking crisis when the first UK Bank, sorry English bank, Northern Rock, failed, which King said could have cost up to one million people their jobs. Decisive action would have at least mitigated the problems encountered by other Banks including HBOS and RBS a year later.

    More background at:

  195. Robert Louis says:

    Breeks at 1049pm

    I must say, I kind of agree with your posting, aside from the Cat Boyd stuff, which I think is an ego driven irrelevancy, driven by a self important wannabe.

    I too an exceptionally frustrated at this current SNP approach. At what point do the SNP Scot Gov actually make a stand, and say, NO. Too many times, we hear from them, that something which westminster is doing is not acceptable or an outrage etc.. but then they meekly back down and go away.

    I think, however, you have expressed the key points better than I ever could, so I hope you don’t mind if I quote them below. I like everyone on her,e worked hard pushing independence for years, and tried to keep the spirit going after Sept 2014. I have been so reluctant to criticise the indy movement or indeed the SNP, but am michty frustrated at their exceptionally timid approach of late. Their comes a time when a movement or a Goverment needs to stand up for what it believes in, and say ‘NO’ this will not be allowed to be done to Scotland. It seems the current SNP leadership are feart to make a stand on anything. It will not do.

    For indy, the SNP Scot Gov needs to be setting the political narrative to push matters on, get it on the agenda, so to speak. The current strategy of having an SNP First Minister who seems afraid to even say the ‘I’ word, is baloney of the highest order. If an SNP first minister with more MP’s, MSP’s and councillors, will not speak up for indy, then how, realistically, can anybody else? Just for the record, look back and you will see that Alex Salmond talked about independence all the time, even before the referendum was called. He SET THE AGENDA. Too much following, rather than leading going on right now.

    Anyway, below are parts from Breeks post above (I have added my own bolding to an issue and danger which I 1000% agree with, regarding brexit);

    ‘…Much more dangerous in my opinion is the SNP’s aversion to taking any initiative over Independence, and failing to provide forward momentum for the campaign.

    I just do not understand the logic of throwing away concessions to Brexit which to me seem like meat and drink to a constitutional dispute which cannot be reconciled within the Union. Why are we trying to make the Union work? Our Scottish remain vote was a sovereign choice democratically expressed! Why was Theresa May’s “Brexit means Brexit” rhetoric not met with the ebullient constitutional certainty that Remain in Scotland meant exactly that, and was a binding decision underwritten with Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty?

    We seem afraid to leave the Scottish electorate with a binary choice between Independence in Europe, or obscurity as a minor appendage to an increasingly small minded and irrelevant UK.

    It worries me greatly that we all seem to expect Brexit is going to deliver some fearful watershed issue which is going to agitate the population to rise up and rebel against their Union. I just don’t see it. This is Scotland, where the TV and the damned BBC can mollify our outrage when our oil is stolen, when a majority for devolution is overturned, when our country is a guinea pig for Thatcher’s poll tax, and when Rosyth gets royally shafted when it wins orders from Devonport. We all know the list…

    So Brexit is going to shite all over Scotland is it? Wow. What’s new? Another outrage bigger and badder than McCrone? Well, you’re going to have to tell me why this forthcoming demeaning of Scotland is any different from the other decades of ritual shite we’ve been forced to live with. See the tradition is that Westminster shites on Scotland, Scotland grumbles a bit, then glumly settles down to get on with it. Brexit will be different! Aye. A fate worse than a fate worse than death? as Blackadder put it. Aye, that’s pretty bad.

    To break the mould, and we do need to break the mould, means getting access to broadcasting, and going firm on constitutional benchmarks beyond which there can be no compromise. The SNP may not admit defeat, but they are acting defeated.They seem to have neither the ideas nor the appetite to take on the BBC or the constitutional issues which cannot be left unresolved.

    Even throughout 2013 and 2014, I never felt so despondent and bleak about our chances. We’ve attacked Radicle Independence, we’ve attacked the Independence credentials of the Greens, we’ve left YES running on idle for two years, and we seem to have boiled Independence down to a matter of “any other business” tagged on to the bottom of the UK’s Brexit agreement. The logic is to win over doubting voters??? Can somebody remind me how we plan to do that?

    If you want to win over the doubting voters, you’ve got to command the agenda and be the team that’s on form and has all the answers. Please stop this confounded game of pass the parcel, where we cannot plan ahead for next week until we’ve unwrapped the latest round of issues from this week. It’s pedestrian, insipid, it’s devoid of imagination, strategy, and initiative, and it is courting defeat.

  196. Brian Powell says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    “The SNP implied a vote for Labour would be better than a vote for Tory”? You would need to supply a source for that, I don’t konw a single person who said that, neither did I see it anywhere.

  197. T.roz says:

    I can’t stand Corbyn, he is a fake. Pretends to oppose nukes but will let them renew trident. He does not like the EU but let’s his party go along with the hard brexit line. He basically tries to cover all bases, getting up and talking to a Glastonbury crowd sums him up. Can’t stand the man, can’t stand scottish labour.

  198. Brian Powell says:


    He is also a a complete fraud and hypocrite over Independence, he opposes Scottish independence but supports NI becoming reuniting with the RofI and so independent of the UK, and it would therefore remain in the EU, but Scotland must be pulled out of the EU.

  199. galamcennalath says:

    Brian Powell says:

    he opposes Scottish independence but supports NI becoming reuniting

    Many other Greater English Nationalists have the same opinion. While NI is a nuisance to them, and they would readily part with it, Scotland must be kept because it’s valuable.

    Hypocrisy and double standards is the norm within their Establishment, and Corbyn is very much mainstream Establishment despite his act.

  200. Effijy says:

    When Cat Boyd appeared on Question Time she was an embarrassment.

    Just another silly wee lassie seeking a bit of attention.

    She has all the depth of puddle in a heatwave.

  201. Valerie says:


    Its hard for people to refrain from responding, when Ross Greer calls the readers of The National ‘zoomers’.

    Here we are promoting the paper as useful for soft No folk, and telling folk leave it in public places. The National is engaged in a countrywide road show.

    But, here’s Greer calling us zoomers. Hard not to question his motivations.

  202. Ken500 says:

    There is no point in having an IndyRef until it can be won. Brexit could swing it. Within 4 years years?

    How much did the illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion, no minimum pricing, Trident, tax evasion, mismanagement of the Oil sector etc cost Scotland? Billions.

    Mervyn King and Alistair Darling were manipulating the Libor rates. Affects bank rates worldwide. They should have been put in jail.

    6,000 voters in the NE did not come out to vote. SNP/Independence? Voter apathy let the Tories in. Voter remorse. Vote Labour get Tory. Some people never learn.

  203. Old Pete says:

    Cat obviously does not think Independence is a priority and Ross well who knows?
    Nice morning in Prestwick.

  204. marydoll says:


    I forwarded the weblink from Tommy Shepherd to some friends.
    A friend who uses Virgin as supplier had it blocked by virus checker.
    Anyone else had this problem?

  205. gordoz says:

    Classic GMS / BBC ‘smoke & mirrors’ deflection / transference of a Newspaper story this morning in S Herald (don’t read it anymore myself). PAPERS SECTION

    Story about online something or other ‘Unionist trolls’ (do they exist then ? ), no mention at all of ‘who’ or what ‘sites’,
    mumbled discussion then the Name ‘Wings over Scotland’ mentioned by BBC chap very clear about that of course … and then descends into twitter conversation about its all very school playground and everyones at it !

    Really cleverly done … give it a listen

  206. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Brian Powell at 8.21

    “I don’t konw a single person who said that,”

    I didn’t say anybody said that.
    I said “implied” which we did by talking about a “progressive alliance” and the like in Westminster with them and so on.
    This was a very confused position to take when a continuing collapse of the Labour vote in Scotland was believed to be to our best advantage.

  207. Jim Graham says:

    marydoll at 9:59

    I am with Virgin and tried to access that link from Tommy Shepherd only to be presented with a page saying it had been blocked. I then accessed my Virgin account and switched off the virus detector and accessed the page again. This time I got through to the page.

    I have a program called Bitdefender installed on my computer that detects suspicious code on, amongst other things, web pages. When I accessed the link it found no suspicious code at all. Bitdefender is one of the best programs of it’s kind available and updates it’s database of suspicious code many times in a day (yesterday it was six times) so I really think if there was any virus there it would have found it.

  208. Chick McGregor says:

    “In an election where more than 2.6 million votes were cast, if a mere 0.4% of them – 11,537 more people ”

    After the post election voting shift polls were published by Ashton, it was a simple matter to calculate that were well over a hundred thousand ‘defectors’ from SNP to Lab.

    It is indeed a frightening prospect that only around 11,000 more ‘socialist first’ types returning to the Labour fold could produce the result shown, and a measure of just how lucky we were.

  209. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Louis says: 13 August, 2017 at 8:18 am:

    “I too an exceptionally frustrated at this current SNP approach. At what point do the SNP Scot Gov actually make a stand, and say, NO.”

    That’s one hell of a lot of words to say, “SNP BAAD!”, Robert Louis.

    Here is the real point. Just what exactly do you mean by, “the SNP Scots Gov”, when you, “want them to make a stand”?

    “The Scottish Government”, is comprised of both the current party in power AND the combined Holyrood opposition parties who may, or may not, back them in votes in the Scottish Parliament. That is all of the elected MSPs at Holyrood and, to a lesser extent, all of the MPs at Westminster, who not only choose what things Holyrood and Westminster will debate but will vote upon them. Furthermore, the opposition can, and do propose motions for debate.

    Each MSP, all bar independent members, are subject to their parties whip, and may choose to vote for, against or abstain on any matter placed before them. What is more parties can choose to apply, or not apply, the whip to any debate in the chamber or even in committee.

    In other words the SNP are the party in power and they have a majority over any other individual Holyrood parties. However, they do not have an overall majority and, as we all know, all but the Greens are Unionist parties and have form in banding together as unionists against the independence supporting parties and the Greens may not always follow the SNP line.

    Thus the Scottish SNP Parliamentary group risk defeat in any vote the Unionist parties choose to vote as one unionist party upon.

    Secondly the SNP parliamentary groups are NOT, “The SNP”, – they are the representatives of the card carrying party members as all SNP policy is made by the entire membership and each member, regardless of their status within the party, have only one vote each.

    All that boils down to the simple fact that both SNP parliamentary groups constantly walk a, non-tight, high-wire without safety nets and any defeat will be blown out of all proportions by the Unionists, the unionist controlled media. Not to mention by people like you who seem not to understand the actuality of the situation.

    You only needs look at the sheer bullshit that flooded Scotland in the wake of the last General Election that only the SNP fought as a General election.

    The rest of the parties, and the media, fought it as a unionist campaign about a referendum on holding a referendum and afterwards claimed it as a massive defeat for the SNP.

    Yet the SNP actually still came out on top with more members from Scotland than all other Unionist parties Scottish members added together.

    So why people like you are actively campaigning on a ticket of SNP BAAD is a rather sinister development here on Wings.

    To put all that in a nutshell the SNP are the whole membership of the Party yet you seek to portray them as only being those the membership have chosen to be the parties representatives in the legislatures and who have thus also been endorsed by the larger independence supporting non-SNP party voters of Scotland in the wider YES movement.

  210. Chick McGregor says:

    Ashton? I meant Ashcroft.

  211. winifred mccartney says: and Tommy Shepherd vid blocked by google chrome can access using microsoft edge. Bit of a nuisance just coming up on Google as access denied on this site – no mention of virus or malware. It would appear that google as a browser is blocking access!

  212. liz says:

    @marydoll – yes I have the same problem and have already sent a complaint to virgin.
    This is the first time I’ve ever known virgin to block access to any web page, they are not my current protection.

    It’s definitely fishy

  213. Robert Kerr says:

    I am running Safari on an apple with BT as my internet provider.

    Previously I accessed “” with a warning from BT but was permitted to continue and filled in the questionnaire from SNP.

    I now have

    “Access Denied

    You don’t have permission to access “” on this server.
    Reference #18.c571906d.1502617794.34ab993.”

    I have directly linked through from the SNP website.

    What is the SNP doing about this censorship?

  214. One_Scot says:

    Stop with the virus nonsense already. Got a reply from Tommy yesterday about the ISP issue. They are aware of the problem and it is being looked into. He will update when he knows more.

  215. FTDmail says:

    it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that the Unionist and UK establishment has now gotten so worried about the dangers to the UK state (with Brexit) that they are now PAYING some people to sow confusion in the ranks

  216. Robert Kerr says:

    This blocking is serious.

    Who next?

    Wings Over Scotland?

  217. auld highlander says:

    Nae probs with here and i use bt.

  218. Maria F says:

    It comes to a time when you actually have to decide what your priority is if independence for Scotland or Labour’s utopia, because it is clear as crystal that you cannot have both. No ifs no buts.

    I think it is time for making it clear to everybody in Scotland that Corbyn is not the saint he appears to be and Labour is a party that has no other objective in Scotland than suffocating the independence movement. That has to be hammered day in day out.

    I am incredibly disappointed with Cat Boyd, I must say. I could not believe when she came publicly to say that she had voted labour. The first thought that crossed my mind is that she had been fooled us all along and was nothing but a unionist plant.

    She is a journalist, for goodness sake. Doesn’t she do any research? Because it doesn’t take much to take a look back in time to see that Labour has done nothing other than putting obstacles to an independent Scotland and fighting against Scotalnd: the false promises of home rule by Brown an the rest of the promises to get a No vote, labour standing on the breaks after indiref to give as little devolution to Scotland as possible, the relentless insistence in forbbiding Scotland to decide its own future in a referendum when they lied during indiref campaign, Their disrespect for the democratic vote in favour of another indiref in hte Parliament of Scotland, their continuous racket about Sturgeon not having a mandate for another referendum when that was included in her manifesto, the disgusting hiding of the McCrone Report, the infamous stealing of the 6000 sq miles, a Scottish leader that no longer fights for Corbyn’s policies but limits itself to act as the echo chamber of Ruth Davidson and of course, the cherry on the cake, a political party that is more than happy to overrule Scotland’s democratic result in the EU referendum, dragging our country out of the EU out and the Single market it seems, infliting economic and social pain for the sake of a few more seats in Westminster. What on earth was Cat Boyd thinking?

    I consider Ms Boyd an intelligent, talented and smart lady and this is why I struggle to believe that somebody that openly claims that is a supporter of independence and is a columnist for the only supporting independence newspaper, goes on the BBC, the BBC for goodness sake, a broadcaster that is bent on destroying the independence movement!!! to say that she voted for Corbyn. What on earth did this lady think her words were going to do if not severely damage the indy movement? Did she do this on purpose? I am afraid I cannot help but thinking that this was the case.

    I honestly don’t know anymore if I will bother reading her articles again or not so disappointed I was to learnt about this. Her article in the national made me seriously question her real intentions and the intentions of the National. And I must admit I stopped buying it for a few days due to her article.

    I am sorry, but you cannot longer claim that you are such a strong supporter of independence when you go and openly claim that you vote for the party that is attempting to kill independence and even worse, invite others via your column in a newspaper to follow your lead! If she truly supports independence, then she should know better, much better.

    If she is going to continue putting labour and Corbyn ahead of her own country and fellow Scots, then I am afraid her articles are no longer of interest to me and I will seriously consider continuing supporting the National, because what is the point of promoting yourself as a pro-independence paper whey you have inside material as that that is seriously damaging the independence cause?

    If Cat Boyd is serious about independence I think she owns an apology to hte Yes movement for the damage to their cause she has done. I think she should put things right and clearly inform those people she convinced to vote for labour via her column that on doing so they damaged the independence campaign. If she really supports independence, that is.

    It is time to come clean Ms Boyd, or you support labour or you support independence, what is going to be?

  219. Chick McGregor says:

    Sorry, not trusting my memory I checked the archives, it wasn’t Ashcroft it was Yougov.

    There was about 174,000 SNP-Lab ‘socialist first’ defectors. Ms Boyd is by no means alone.

  220. colin alexander says: is not encrypted and yet it’s requesting personal details.

    It should be https with the wee locked padlock.

    I think it does apply encryption once you are actually sending it, but not seeing the wee padlock before sending may put people off.


  221. JLT says:

    The bickering finger-pointing and minor arguments that are being seen on social media are nothing more than that – minor. The Rev has literally nailed it in his opening paragraph – ‘a minor online spat between a tiny handful of people who’ve never liked each other and most of whom the general public has never heard of’.

    I kidd you not, I could ask my parents; both pensioners; both Unionists; both wearing rose-tinted glasses of long-gone dreamy days of Empire, and ask them ‘who’s Cat Boyd?’ …and I’ll get that same question put back to me as both look at me with confused looks on their faces. They’ve never heard of Cat Boyd. They wouldn’t know her if she chapped on their door. She’s nothing to them. Same with all the other names that have been cast up in recent weeks. As far as my parents are concerned, only the names of Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan-Smith, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and Jeremy Corbyn sit comfortably with them when it comes to politics. Anyone else …it could be two neighbours having an argument about a tree growing too near one of their houses.

    In some ways for Scotland, this is still the phoney war. England, delusionally, might be believing that Brexit is almost a settled issue, but it isn’t here in Scotland. For Scots; both Unionist and Nationalist, we are all watching the chaotic scenes from London and Brussels with great unease and a deep-seated worry. And with an ever-increasingly unhinged Donald Trump always looming in the background as the UK’s supposed saviour when it comes to Trade and influence, the future days in the UK are not being viewed with great appeal.

    Therefore, should Brexit go deeply and alarmingly wrong, and a 2nd Referendum is instigated …all of these bickering matches we are seeing at the moment …will be forgotten in an instant. There will be many folk who voted for Jeremy at the last election there, who will still tick that box for independence in a heartbeat because it may actually mean real instant change, both socially and for our own national interests.

    Personally, I’m just sitting quietly watching the events between London and Brussels (hence why I’ve not been posting as much these days). As to the media and all those daft folk determined to have their day bickering over scraps, of what is essentially, absolutely nothing in the greater scheme of things …seriously …I don’t give a damn. Who cares?!?

    However, when Brexit does go badly wrong (and it will at this rate as Tory infighting looms ever larger), then that’s when the real politicking will begin.

  222. colin alexander says:

    @Robert Peffers

    The Scottish Government is one FM, 9 Cabinet Secretaries and 15 other ministers.

    They are in charge of the Government, which then comprises the Civil Service and Directorates

    It does not include the backbench MSPs of the ruling party or opposition MSPs.

  223. heedtracker says:

    Nae probs with here and i use bt.

    BT blocked it here. Cant think why. British Telecom. com, total network monopoly across British isles.

    Even if they’re shite and they really are the archetypal ghastly British corp monopoly, you still pay them some hard earned.

    BT, invented by Snatcher Thatcher. Not as planet destroying polluting as her other monsterbabies like BP though, for the balance.

    BT gave the BBC online crew my browsing habits, so I now get BBC licence fee demands, all over again.

    Fair enough.

    I was watching BBC Politics show at lunchtime, in a cafe, with my BT Anywhere thing, just the execrable Ligger Neil private daily hour long party political broadcast on behalf of tory gits, like “Mrs May” and “Michael Gove.” Mainly to see what hair dye Murdoch’s fav henchman would choose that week.

    I used to tune in online to BBC r4 vote tory broadcasting corporation of England but you need to register with the beeb gimp network to do that now too.

    You now need to sign in. It’s quick & easy.

    And we’ll keep you signed in.
    Sign in or Register

    Why sign in to the BBC?

    Because bumming up/brainwashing our wonderful tory UK/England costs a lot of money and there’s a lot of professional beeb liars that want their dosh?

    I didn’t register. Its the same tory grot day in day out too. At the very least beeb Scotland gimps are having to work a little, in the ongoing tory war on Scottish democracy.

    Only in teamGB.

  224. gordoz says:

    Maria F

    I agree with your comment about the National, since CAT B & Ross have been very damaging of the movement. I hope that the National are paying attention and will have a lot less from Cat & Ross from now on. There must be others who are less fractious & more conciliatory in outlook.
    Never thought either’s articles were that good anyway.
    How about a regular spot from Derek Bateman or Allan Bissett etc. (Or Alex Salmond once fringe is over, that would be a great reversal).

    At least their writing would be more interesting than fractious.

  225. Ron Maclean says:

    What kind of fool thinks that those who want SNP better are the same as those who want SNP bad?

  226. heedtracker says:

    Ron Maclean says:
    13 August, 2017 at 11:29 am
    What kind of fool thinks that those who want SNP better are the same as those who want SNP bad?

    The kind of fool that reads the SNP better comments, that are the produce of 20 20 hindsight, in conjunction with, SNP should do this, SNP should that, we should stop voting SNP and vote for my Scottish sovereignty party etc.

    Want to win?

    Get in the fucking arena:D

  227. Graf Midgehunter says:

    There’s been no tweets on (my) Wings o,S. Twitter since about 13 hrs. Is the Rev on holiday, mauled by bears, having a lie-in, or maybe…..?? Strange.

    All other Twitter sites are OK.

  228. Maria F says:

    “I kidd you not, I could ask my parents; both pensioners; both Unionists; both wearing rose-tinted glasses of long-gone dreamy days of Empire, and ask them ‘who’s Cat Boyd?”

    Do your parents read The National at all? Probably not. The issue here is all those that do and know who Cat Boyd is. Many young people follow her thoughts and ideas and would happily vote labour if she says that she has done so. She is damaging the independence cause and she is doing this knowingly.

    The National is allegedly a pro-independence newspaper and Cat Boyd also a pro-independence campaigner, or so she led us to believe. People reading Cat’s articles in a pro-independence newspaper may be deceived into thinking that Labour supports independence. That is what I find unacceptable, the subtle deception.

    If what you are pursuing is for people to vote for Labour then go in the open and publish your pro-unionist articles in a pro-union newspaper: The National should not be your choice, unless the editors of the national do not intend the newspaper to be that pro-independence after all.

    A paper that supports independence and a journalist that supports independence should not publish anything to support labour because that will undoubtly damage the independence movement: Ms Boyd likes it or not, today labour and independence are incompatible.

    Giving her the benefit of the doubt, if what Ms Boyd is after is to change labour’s stance on independence, then publishing in the national to pro-independence readers, mainly pro-SNP and pro-Green, she is addressing the wrong audience unless what she really is trying to do is to act as the trojan horse for labour and of course unionism.

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    We all presume the SNP have a plan and are working hard on it, but there does come a limit to faith. In the SH today there’s Alex Salmond who is a bit of a bellwether, talking about Indy in 3 to 4 years. Fine. But he also says:

    So therefore I think a (second independence) referendum will be at some point in the next three to four years, depending on the transitional period of Brexit, and I think the result will be a Yes.

    whereas before he was talking about a Ref in autumn 2018 or spring 2019 – less than 2 years. 3 to 4 years is after Brexit, well after. So is he indicative of SNP thinking, and sent out to test the water?

    The problem is it seems that this morning, in the Telegraph and reported on the BBC, Hammond and Fox have now agreed with each other. There will be a transition period. But the UK will be out of the single market and the customs union straight on Brexit (and in charge of its borders). That is NOT a transition period, it’s an immediate jump off the cliff.

    So the ball is in the SNP’s court, and perhaps after the schools are back and holidays over, we’ll see some action. But I think for many the perhaps is a step too far, it has to be a WILL see action, and not just some words from Mike Russell about compromises.

  230. Grouse Beater says:

    You point up the reality extremely well, Maria.

    Boyd is a neo-colonial stuck on the back of lurid lipstick.

  231. Robert Graham says:

    Colin Alexander- re https – and the missing ” S ” I think you have highlighted the problem, most ISP providers will as a matter of course block sites requiring information, nothing sinister there.

    However this draws attention to how easily this can be used to disable every Independence supporting website, and the recent Tory attempt to strangle and control all ISP providers by making them provide details of the website traffic and browsing habits of their customers .

    That is why a Westminster government of any colour will never allow access to control the media, this twilight zone we are in where they control the horizontal, they control the vertical , and above all the content ,will never be allowed, they can’t allow the unwashed to access the truth .

    The Independence movement at a stroke can be stopped in its tracks, who will report its demise ? . Now that is sinister , and very troubling , How far will they allow this movement to flourish before they decide thus far and no further, again who in the media will report it . Checkmate.

  232. Macbeda says:

    I think the problem with the web site is site certificate. Issued by but supported by Symantec Certificate Authority (CA). Symantec are in trouble over the issuing of some certs and this may have caused some web browsers to distrust them as a CA.

    Better to get a fully trusted CA like Digicert or some similar.

  233. yesindyref2 says:
    Traceroute gives IP address, but ends up with “no reply” after trying a couple of routes.

    Traceroute gives similar – no reply.

    and put in “” shows it to be amazonaws (cloud), and gives this warning message:

    “Reverse DNS (PTR) exists and claimes to be:

    Forward DNS for is:

    WARNING: Forward-DNS does NOT match Reverse-DNS.
    Please request your Admin or Provider to fix this”

    Traceroute for my own site works perfectly both directions, and gives on uceprotect “DNS is consistent”.

    That’s almost certainly the problem with – it’s not configured properly (even though I can see it with zen / firefox).

    Fsked configuration problem.

  234. Artyhetty says:

    Re;Graf midgehunter@11.46

    No sign of Rev Stu on twitter today, he does usually seem to not be too far away from it. Hopefully he is taking a wee rest from it.

  235. Bill McLean says:

    Can get to “” via Google, Bing and Windows Edge without having to sign in.

  236. yesindyref2 says:

    I should add to that I’m old internet, dedicated server with 3 IPs plus a block of 13 I bought years ago, and I know nothing about the cloud. But it should be easy to fix, either a change in the mobilise (bind or similar) config, or a request into amazon to set the rDNS and voila, job done. That’s if it still works that way, or if Amazon are set up properly for the cloud. Effective within 48 hours for full propogation, but earlier for most.

  237. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chick McGregor says: 13 August, 2017 at 10:32 am:

    “After the post election voting shift polls were published by Ashton, it was a simple matter to calculate that were well over a hundred thousand ‘defectors’ from SNP to Lab.”

    The very obvious truth is that these people, including Cat Boyd, wouldn’t recognise a real socialist party if it bit them. They are like the many, particularly if there are religious, Irish political or royalist connections, football supporters.

    They have a rather ignorance based team loyalty to, “Their”, team but that team couldn’t care less about their supporters excepting as the cash cow customers that provides for the club and the owners a very good living.

    The most socialist political party in Scotland is without doubt the SNP and I’m not excluding the SSP from that claim. Labour moved further right than the Tories under Blair, Brown, Darling and Co, and I’m not excluding Smith or Dewar either.

    The lot of them are Westminster Establishment through & through and what Labour says and what Labour does are two very different things.

    They often do talk a good socialist story to draw in the more gullible punters but there is where Labour’s socialism starts and ends. Those punters are so lacking in clear vision and understanding that they can be led by the nose by the Labour party’s claim that they are socialist when nothing they have done, or even promised they would do, has ever come to pass.

    They are Westminster Establishment Unionist and that necessitates being extreme right wing. The proof of that is plain.

    Labour have enthusiastically backed the Tory austerity measures, backed wholeheartedly all measures to increase MP’s incomes, pensions and expenses and seen the richest strata of The United Kingdom social structure more than double while the poorer levels of society have suffered the austerity measures often to their premature deaths from those government austerity measures that the Labour party backed.

    How can already rich people be in austerity measures while more than doubling their own personal wealth? Where could that extra wealth come from when the only people who are getting poorer are the already poor and the most vulnerable.

    Plainly what the Westminster Establishment stands for is transferring cash from the pockets of the poor into the overseas bank accounts of the rich.

  238. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert Kerr says: 13 August, 2017 at 10:54 am:

    Aye! Here we have another one who instead of blaming the unionists who are actually doing the dirty deed as the bad guys blames the SNP for NOT doing some unspecified something.

    The SNP are the members of the party – all the members of the party. NOT the party executive who are the members paid for employees. Neither is Nicola Sturgeon the kind of virtual dictator that Theresa May is for the Tories nor the virtual dictator that Corbyn would like to be, if only his parliamentary Labour Group would allow him to be one.

    Might one ask what Robert Kerr, the one who is actually having his internet blocked for only political reasons, doing about it?

    Another thing, why are we not seeing and hearing the broadcasters publicising this evil censorship and where are the dead tree press on this matter? They are, after all, such sticklers for freedom of speech – or is it only their own personal freedoms of speech to spread unionist propaganda they are sticklers for?

    Robert, it is your ISP that is censoring your right to access and you are their customer. The SNP are the instigators of the message and it is being propagated by the SNP’s ISP.

    The bad guys are at your end – not the SNP’s.

  239. schrodingers cat says:

    cat’s position isnt meant to be logical, it is meant to be controversial to attract clicks and attention,

    which would you listen to?

    however, cat and angela rose to prominence in the yes movement, not rise or the snp, and that support can just as easily be removed. a short term tactic to increase their public profile may very well backfire as the worst thing to happen to a public commentator is to be ignored.
    if and when that happens, the only recourse for them is to become even more controversial in the hope of attracting more twitter clicks. it ends after a stint in the big brother house or a late night appearance on Cheggers plays pop.
    They dont dislike Stu, or even disagree with him…….. they are just jealous of his popularity.
    we wont be seeing either angela or cat in fife during indyref2, that much is certain, and after unfollowing them on twitter, along with many others, they will disappear back into obscurity along with vonny moyes

  240. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    This is from an old article in 2013:

    Reverse DNS is mostly used by humans for such things as tracking where a web-site visitor came from, or where an e-mail message originated etc.
    It is typically not as critical in as forward DNS – visitors will still reach your web-site just fine without any reverse DNS for your web-server IP or the visitor’s IP.

    the thing is with all the internet abuse, police action and terrorism, it’s possible some ISPs have tightened up on this and won’t forward connections that don’t have rDNS set up properly – perhaps Virgin and (some) BT, but not the likes of Zen, though I did get them to give me totally open internet, no filters, years ago.

    the rDNS on exists, but is faulty, whether that’s the SNP admin or Amazon, who knows. So it’s not censorship as such, just perhaps over-cautious protection.

    Most UCE I sometimes check up on to block on my server has that problem, so it’s also an anti-spam measure for email, and perhaps for those daft enough to click on an unknown link in an unknown email – phishing attempts or otherwise. Probably half of PCs in the UK are zombied, and used for nefarious purposes, so it would be a sensible policy to tighten up on website configuration.

  241. Robert Peffers says:

    @auld highlander says: 13 August, 2017 at 11:00 am:

    “Nae probs with here and i use bt.”

    No probs here with Vodafone either, Auld Highlander. But then, when I signed up with them not so long ago, I found I was being blocked from quite a few websites and I do not mean because of virus or Trojan activity nor of porn or anything like that.

    This was sites such as, “Archive This”, and several other political sites, (and not just the SNP). I contacted them and demanded they stopped censoring my choice of websites.

    They claimed they were doing so, as a matter of course, to protect vulnerable youngsters or those daft enough to not use proper anti-virus and anti-Malware programs.

    It took them all of two minutes on their phones to remove their auto-imposed filters and I’ve had no problems ever since.

    I did have a couple of rather daft, and inept, attempts that claimed they were locking my computer to prevent someone else from scanning my machines and extracting my bank account passwords and data.

    They claimed I should click on a link that they provided to have my machine protected and cleaned by them. I was not fooled even although they were preventing me leaving the page.

    I had swiftly turned off the router connected to the fibre line and thus knew there was no actual scam going on except by them and they did, though, stop the user from easily leaving their site page.

    Resulting virus and malware checks showed it was a con and there was no outside attempts to scan the machines. But there would have been if I’d been daft enough to click the provided link.

    All they had done was prevent me from easily leaving that webpage.

    It was a total scam but they did prevent user from easily leaving the webpage.

  242. Robert Peffers says:

    @colin alexander says: 13 August, 2017 at 11:17 am:

    “The Scottish Government is one FM, 9 Cabinet Secretaries and 15 other ministers.”

    Utter garbage, Colin.

    The Government is comprised of the elected members and includes both the party in power and all opposition parties.

    The Civil Service are Government employees – and as it happens in regard to Holyrood, they are mostly United Kingdom Civil Servants who are supposedly apolitical, (apolitical=adj “Not interested or involved in politics)”.

    However everyone has their own political views.

    Both the party that forms the party in power and the opposition are the elected government and both can, and do, propose and oppose motions and bills for debate in the chamber and the entire house is allowed to vote on both so called Government and opposition motions or bills. As an aside there is also Private Member Bills that have a lottery to see which go forward for debate in the chamber.

    If both the party in power and the opposition were NOT parts of the government then the party in power are virtually a dictatorship if the Prime Minister/First Minister can, as in Westminster, do some things without parliament’s vote or if their own party rules allow the leader to dictate policy.

    In the case of the SNP, the leadership does NOT dictate party policy. This can only be done by those delegated by branches to National Conference.

    This was spectacularly demonstrated when the SNP National Conference debated, (in front of the TV cameras), the matter of NATO membership. In the SNP there are no Union style Card Votes as everyone in the party has only one vote.

  243. Cuilean says:

    I’m sick to death of the class of dunces & political nonentities which is: Cat Boyd, Mike Small, Loki etc.

    Boyd is a nincompoop, as this very well argued article clearly demonstrates. Of course she is entitled to be a nincompoop, I am just sick to death of having these nincompoops forced on us by the MSM.

    I’m waiting for some other nincompoop (e.g. Ross Greer) writing any articles anywhere near to the same forensic quality as Wings.

    I think I am in for a very long wait.

  244. yesindyref2 says:


    “The Scottish Government
    1 First Minister
    9 Cabinet Secretaries
    15 Other ministers”

    That’s official.

  245. Mark Rowantree says:

    Folk like Cat Boyd are perfectly entitled to vote for whomsoever they wish to. Fortunately, whatever they may claim they are not the sacred holders of the flame of the Scottish independence movement and thus their views hold no more importance nor influence than mine do.
    Neither do these fairweather Yes-ers, represent the majority of these on the left in this country. I make absolutely no claims for perspicacity, nor claim to have an inordinate degree of influence but having been both a socialist and supporter of the SNP for almost 40 years I would dispute the claim of those media luvies who claim unique ownership of a socialist and pro-independence strategy.

  246. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “Rock at 8.38

    Please explain (produce some evidence) of the “get rich quick business practices” of Michelle Thomson.”

    Thomson’s firm kept £24,000 out of the £75,000 proceeds as per the speculative agreement between the Wrights and Thomson’s firm where both were trying to make a quick buck.

    Thatcherite capitalism at its worst. You are a fan of it I presume?

  247. frankieboy says:

    I attended RIC meetings prior to Indyref. I listened to these ‘socialists’. There was something very unnerving about the meeting and for a while I could not fathom it out. Eventually it dawned on me that the message was very similar to Militant meetings of early 1980’s. They were full of of opportunists too, one who became a BBC reporter and then Head of Glasgow Underground. Careerists all who will take any opportunity that comes along and jettison any principles along the way. This is made easy because that’s what you do if you want to get ahead in the Labour Party. Cronyism, nepotism , nods and winks and dodgy handshakes is how it has worked in Labour up until Tony arrived, and he changed it so that public school connections ruled. I detest the Labour party and have done for as long as I can remember. Leaving independence aside, how anyone could vote for such a despicable party is beyond me.

  248. Davosa says:

    Torrance is a total fuckin wanker and should be ignored. One of the main reasons I gave up on The Herald tbh.

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