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Wings Over Scotland

The knife-edgers

Posted on June 10, 2017 by

This was the revealing reaction of the Question Time audience and panel last night when right-wing Daily Mail/Times journalist Isabel Oakeshott and Labour peer Shami Chakrabarti debated who’d “won” the election:

On Thursday Jeremy Corbyn got 40% of the vote, 40% of the seats and lost by 2%.

In Scotland, Ruth Davidson got 28% of the vote, 22% of the seats and lost by 9%.

(Corbyn was also a thumping 33 points clear of the 3rd-place party in terms of vote share. Davidson’s margin over the party below was just 1.5 points.)

Yet the entire media, across both Scotland and the UK, has presented Davidson as the undisputed and triumphant victor, and nobody laughs.

But while it’s valuable to keep things in some sort of perspective, the SNP shouldn’t be too complacent about that reality. The defining characteristic of this election was closeness. After the tsunami of 2015, only one Scottish seat – Ian Murray’s – was won by a five-figure majority, and only 10 by more than 5000 votes. (See table below.)

Murray’s result in particular was enormously suspicious. The Tories should have been in very strong contention – having comfortably won the equivalent council seats just a month ago – but fielded a paper candidate, did no campaigning, and finished in third place, almost 17,000 votes behind Murray. The seat that had been Scotland’s most marginal on the day of the 2015 election was its safest barely two years later, even though Murray had spent most of that time bitterly attacking the Labour leader whose success revived the party.

Tactical voting, a spectacular failure in 2015, in fact worked amazingly well this time – there was not a single seat in Scotland where two Unionist parties took 1st and second places. In every seat, despite no public movement, Unionist voters somehow knew which candidates to vote for to have the best chance of getting the SNP out, as noted on Friday by one Aberdeen Evening Express reporter.

And that remained the case even when the answer seemed wildly counter-intuitive. The BBC’s exit poll, for example, had Gordon as a 51-49 race between the SNP and the Lib Dems. In fact the Tories came through from 21,000 votes behind in third place in 2015 and won the seat, with the Lib Dems almost 16,000 votes adrift in fourth.

The only rational explanation for that is that there must have been direct, nationwide, covert (but perfectly legal) collusion between the three Unionist parties at a high level. But the even more remarkable thing is that the election was still so finely balanced that the result could easily have been dramatically different in either direction.

Thanks to the magic of First Past The Post, just 3,385 extra votes across the whole of Scotland could have seen the SNP take 41 seats – nearly 70% of those available, compared to the 59.3% they actually won.

But on the other hand, a mere 3,504 extra Unionist votes could similarly have reduced the SNP’s cohort to just 24 seats – barely 40% of the total.

(And indeed, just 1,799 more votes would have given the SNP two-thirds of seats, while it would have taken only 619 to drop them below the majority threshold of 30.)

When you consider that the average single Scottish constituency in a Westminster election sees somewhere in the ballpark of 50,000 votes cast in it on the night, you begin to understand how incredibly fine those margins are. A spread of 6,889 votes – just 0.2% of the 2.65m cast on Thursday – covered a range between the SNP winning a crushing 70% or a disastrous 40% of the seats.

Now, it could be that this election marks the high-water mark of tactical voting. Labour supporters may be less willing to lend their voters to Tories next time, having seen the DUP-controlled UK government that has resulted and how close Jeremy Corbyn came to being able to pull together a progressive alliance that would have made him PM.

Similarly, Tory voters may be less likely to let the likes of Ian Murray have a free ride given that the seven seats Labour took in Scotland effectively cost Theresa May her majority – winning them all would have given her 325 UK seats, just enough for a sole administration (and more so when the vacant Sinn Fein seats are taken into account).

But the SNP’s blood will be running cold at the thought of what happens if Thursday’s pattern is repeated whenever the next election comes around – which could be very soon. And as we said in the wee small hours of Friday, they definitely can’t afford to count on getting a pro-independence majority in the next Scottish Parliament in 2021.

If another referendum is to happen in the next decade, the clock is very much ticking.

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524 to “The knife-edgers”

  1. Bill McLean

    Maria F – very good post. Not just because I agree with it but because these points about what is legal and what is not should be clarified by the prime movers to independence – the SNP!
    If we are not a territory or a colony of England why do we have to ask their permission for a referendum? I have asked these questions not only on this forum and never get an answer. I accept the fact that we cannot do UDI because we need more than half the population on board but can’t it be spelled so that those who are wavering may see it as an option. Not enough info about independence and how we get there. Politeness to a fault by the SNP only allows unionists to walk all over us. There is no magic formula that will bring independence. We need all the facts of our legal position made clearly and loudly! Otherwise I fear many will walk away to the progressive picture Corbyn is painting!

  2. Maria F

    heedtracker says:
    11 June, 2017 at 2:24 pm

    “But in all that, you have nothing to offer at all”
    I have offered important questions that I think need to be answered sooner or later. I am sure I am not the only one in Scotland asking those questions.

    “UDI is insane, completely and utterly insane”
    Why? Why is it insane? Can you please detail the legalities and reasons why UDI is insane, when Scotland is a country that entered voluntarily into a union and now is being treated as a colony subdued by another country? How many countries are out there that have become independent by ‘asking permission’ from their oppressors to hold a ‘democratic’ referendum? I put democratic in inverted commas because I do not consider the peeping of the postal votes before 10:00 by the tories, or the false promises by the BTogether or the PR spouted by the BBC during our indiref as democratic.

    “All you’re doing is whinging at the SNP”
    No, I am asking serious questions because I care about the SNP MPs and more importantly about Scotland. Your vote is as important as you make it to be. On the 19th September 2014 I made to myself the commitment that from then onwards my vote was too important to be wasted so I would only vote for political parties that support and fight for independence. After watching 2 years of our hard working SNP MPs being thrown heads on against the English establishment wall time and time again, I have also took the view that Westminster is not longer where the fight for Scotland’s independence is. The fight is right here in Scotland. It is here that we will win.

    “There are issues that could change drastically”
    Such as?

    “For one, ID who exactly are Scottish independence most powerful opponents?”
    From where I am standing, Kezia Dugdale. Why? Because on the day the result of the EU referendum was announced, Kezia had in her hands all the power to change the course of the politics in the entire UK. It would have been enough for her to come out publicly saying that or the result for the EU referendum in Scotland was respected or she would fully endorse independence from that day onwards, and Brexit would have been stopped right on its tracks. Rewind back to 2015/2016: had Kezia demanded the delivery of the vow in full (including Devo Max) or threatened with supporting independence and now Scotland would be fully devolved. But instead of defending her country, Kezia decided to unite to the Tories, and even asking the electorate for their vote to the tories. Why? In my opinion because they have realised that Brexit is the way to crush independence. So there, the biggest enemies of Scotalnd’s independence are the Scottish politicians themselves.

    “Is it guys marching along a few streets in strange toytown outfits playing flutes?”

    I agree.

    “Its the BBC and BBC Scotland for starters. So now is the time for the SNP in government to start attacking them, strapping on a pair and really hitting back at the beeb bootboys like Glenn Campbell’s and toodleoo the noo”

    You got a point. But the reality is that the SNP has lost 2 years and 9 months where they should have been hammering the broadcasters and MSM rags, exactly as the Rev has relentlessly done. And look at his website: its popularity is increasing by the day. The truth is that the SNP has left the dirty fight against the MSM and the BBC to the grassroots movement.

    “But that take guts and seeing as I haven’t the guts to even try to stand as an SNP anything at all…”
    Why don’t you have the guts heedtracker? Because you think you are going to fail. Well you are not. That is how Scotland gets subdued everytime, because we lack the guts to fight back.

  3. Lochside

    Maria F…..Hear!Hear!….We have no clarity on anything…our Sovereignty; what legal position we have in the EU; how we take control over broadcasting etc. etc. Singing ‘ode to Joy’ in the corrupt HOC was and is a ludicrous demonstration of our political impotency….and for that the SNP are paying the price despite all the delusional on this site thinking we ‘won’… the word’ Pyrrhic’ comes to mind.

  4. heedtracker

    Maria F says:
    11 June, 2017 at 2:53 pm
    heedtracker says:
    11 June, 2017 at 2:24 pm

    I read all your comments Maria, but the fact is UDI fails from the start because it is anti democratic. There are lot of other huge reasons to not go UDI but this has to be number one.

    It is extremely frustrating for all YESers but Scotland voted NO in 2014. There is no way we can overturn this result except by using all democracy we have.

    Ofcourse as we know, the right and yoon culture view democracy as something that have the absolute to shape, frame and then win.

    We live a democracy where just enough people vote for a tory party that hands the entitled rich tax cuts, while slashing and burning away at the most impoverished and disabled, a society who really do want the insanity of Trident nukes dumped in Scotland, who really do not care what happens to us at all, as long as Scotland stays in this crazy union.

    Also, I don’t stand for election because I am too annoying:D I have this from a very reliable source.

  5. yesindyref2

    UDI is a total non-starter, with the Unionists claiming they got 63% of the vote in Scotland in the recent election.

    Doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not, it can stand, and would make UDI against the will of the population of Scotland.

    The Referendum in 2014 has set a precedent, so unless a referendum is totally refused when called for, UDI is a NO – from me as well.

    Scotland is nothing without democracy.

  6. Liz g

    Heedtracker @ 3.26 & Maria F
    Have to agree with you there,not about the annoying bit but about why UDI is a very very last resort.

    Scotland said No in 2014, which ment that the Scottish electorate wanted it’s representatives to make Scotland’s law’s in Westminster and under the system that Westminster operates, Maria.

    The 56 MP’s that were elected promised not to try for Independence, which was a promise they kept.
    I would not have wanted them to break their word!

    Had they said elect us and if there’s a majority of us we will tell Parliament that we no longer hold ourselves bound by the terms and conditions of the Treaty of the Union,and are returning to Holyrood…. that’s a different matter.

    But to do that you need the support of the people.
    If the current MP’s didn’t make that promise this time,then in theory they still could,as they are the majority,but they have still not carried with them to Westminster the support of the bulk of the Scottish people.

    We don’t need permission we have always had the power to leave,but we need to demonstrate clearly that it’s the will of the majority…..and not to Westminster but to each other, espically to those other Scots who wanted to keep the Union.

    Most of whom have been habituated just like us,to accept that democracy decides now and not might means right anymore (thats so 1706)

    UDI technically? the wrong term any way…..but we know what we mean… a last resort.
    That’s for when we all want to leave Westminster and they won’t get out of the way.
    If they refused to cooperate with a vote to directly end the Union (referendum) of if they interfere with that vote,then that’s when at the very next General Election the candidates promise to go end the Union.
    That’s what Maggie was getting at… trying to be smart because she didn’t think a majority of Independence MP’s were possible…now we know different..
    And they don’t like it….
    Hopefully that helps you Maria F.

  7. Liz g

    Oh and also, what we gained by having the 56 there,was that the democratic deficit was highlighted,live and in colour,and in yer living room.
    The other parties espically the Torries cooperated many times to demonstrate it….they really gave it their all.

    So next time there can be no doubt that if Scotland wants it’s law’s to still be written at Westminster they will always get what the English MP’s and potentially the N.Irish MP’s decide.
    But definitely not the Scottish one’s.
    We can only ask that our fellow Scots get off their Knees we can’t make them.
    But until they do….not a lot Nicola of anyone else can do about it.

  8. Frank Buchanan

    (ALL figures directly taken, or calculated, from the ever reliable – AYE RIGHT! – BBC General Election summary websites for 2017 and 2015)

    Another bit of analysis of the Scottish Election results.

    Totals 2017 (versus 2015)
    Total registered electorate was: 3,988,490 (4,094,784)
    {So registered voters went DOWN by 106,294
    despite a rising population from 2015 to 2017 !!!! }

    Turnout was: 2,649,695 – 64.4% (2,910,465 – 71.1%)
    {So actual votes cast went DOWN by 260,770}

    Individual party votes:
    SNP 977,569 (1,454,436) Down by 476,867
    Tory 757,949 (434,097) Up by 323,852
    Labour 717,007 (707,147) Up by 9,860
    Lib-Dem 179,061 (219,675) Down by 40,614
    Greens 5,886 (39,205) Down by 33,319
    UKIP 5,302 (47,078) Down by 41,776
    Others 6,921 (8,827) Down by 1,906
    (including TUSC)
    {So, even if ALL the “missing” 260,770 votes had been SNP (they were not) that means the remainder (216,097) of the SNP vote drop (of 476,867) went to different parties. Apply your own brand of logic to where the SNP votes actually went – my brand of logic says they mostly went back to where they had been before the 2015 “Tsunami” swing to the SNP and THAT means they went hugely to Labour, a bit to the Lib-Dems and very few directly to the Tories.

    Now suppose that those “missing” Green votes also went tactically to the SNP (reasonable) then in fact the overall NET transfer from SNP to other parties was 249,416 (216,097 plus the “missing” Green votes 33,319) !

    Now the biggest questions of all – Why did Labour and Lib Dem NOT get a huge increase in their vote from those 249,416 shifting SNP votes ????

    Labour got a tiny increase of 9,860 while the Lib-Dems got a huge drop of 40,614.

    Any rational person would have two conclusions to draw – either the entire 249,416 went to the Tories because Rith persuaded them to all become Unionists (AYE RIGHT!) or
    Labour and Lib-Dem voters were so stupid and Unionist that they deserted their own parties for the Tories for tactical voting and were left to gaze enviously (and I hope with huge embarassment) at the Tories getting 12 seats out of that tactical con-trick while they got 9 extra seats between them.

    Of course those Labour and Lib-Dem tactical voters will now be delighted (as newly staunch Unionists and no longer socialists or liberals) to see the 12 new Scottish Tory MPs keep Theresa May in office (but not strong and stable, power) and her Tory Austerity government propped up in office (yet again) in “UNION” with the ever charming and civilised DUP – just another “normal British political party” who just don’t like Catholics!

    The UK media are ALL lying to you again as usual – Theresa May and her right-wing UK media allies did NOT lose this election – Jeremy Corby stopped their continuing progress. The Tory vote went up hugely across the UK (to 13,667,213 from 11,334,576 – so Theresa May WON an extra 2,332,637 votes !).

    Her tactics (and Ruth Davidson’s) were a great success 🙁 – Jeremy Corbyn’s were even better 🙂

    Her media and political “friends” are now trying to bury her as she “failed” to give them what they demanded – a parliamentary victory, after they successfully delivered her an extra 2.3 Million votes!

    Jeremy Corbyn and his Labour party (actual socialists and Blairite occasional allies) did even better despite endless biased media distortions and lies and character blackening – they got the UK turnout UP from 66.1% to 68.7% and increased the Labour vote from 9,347,304 to 12,874,985 – so Jeremy Corbyn won an extra 3,527,681 – beating the Tory vote gain by well over a million!

  9. Maria F

    heedtracker says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:26 pm

    “the fact is UDI fails from the start because it is anti democratic”

    It would not have been anti-democratic if they had stood up on a platform of independence. But they chose not to, twice now in a row in 2015 and in 2017. My question is why? Is independence therefore not longer their priority? If that is the case, heedtracker, please give me a good reason why a person that supports independence for Scotland but cannot stand how those Scottish MPs are bruised and demeaned in the UK parliament simply because they are SNP should bother casting a vote ever again for a GE in the UK? Why somebody that has realised that even if the 59 MPs from Scotland are SNP it will not make a bit of a difference to the way Scotland is treated in this Union and how its assets are abused should bother voting? Or why should they bother casting a vote when that parliament does not respect the democratic vote of the Parliament of Scotland?

    Why is it ‘democratic’ to undermine the democratic will of the people of Scotland by undermining the fact that the people of Scotland democratically elected to Holyrood a political party with a mandate for a referendum, or by undermining the fact that the people of Scotland democratically voted to remain in the EU or undermining the fact that the parliament of Scotland democratically voted for a independence referendum, but it is considered ‘undemocratic’ if the majority of the democratically elected MPs, which represent a political party whose raison d’etre is seeking independence for Scotland were to declare UDI?

    yesindyref2 says:
    11 June, 2017 at 3:59 pm
    “UDI is a total non-starter, with the Unionists claiming they got 63% of the vote in Scotland in the recent election”

    I would agree with you 100% and I would not be bringing this up if the SNP had stood up on a platform for independence, but the truth is that they didn’t. As a matter of fact, neither did labour because as I mentioned above, the leaflet I got through my letter box did not talk about independence, it talked about standing up against the tories. Kezia can talk as much as she wants, but the ballots did not have the options ‘Scottish labour or UK labour’. So you cannot simply assume that a vote for labour was a vote for Kezia and her relentless support of the union and her rejection of the democratically voted proposal of a independence referendum. The only ones that made that crystal clear were the Tories, and quite frankly, the percentage of the vote they got is not enough to claim that Scotland wants to remain in the Union.

    “The Referendum in 2014 has set a precedent, so unless a referendum is totally refused when called for, UDI is a NO – from me as well”

    A referendum in 2014 that was abused by unionism by packing the campaign with lies and deception both in the MSM and the ‘national’ broadcaster. A referendum that was abused by making a vow during the purdah period.

    The independence referendum has already been refused. In fact, I am of the opinion that this ridiculous snap GE has been the Tory strategy to stop that referendum by diluting the SNP MPs at Westminster and undermining the independence position. We all know that there was not need for this election. Interestingly, Theresa May called it once the request for the Referendum was already on the table.

    The referendum in 2014 was fought on a campaign of lies and deception. So much so that I am not sure that many of us can ever trust unionists, the BBC or the MSM to be democratic in a future one. So, are we now saying that Scotland must take any crap the unionist establishment throws at us no matter how big their porkies are because a 55% voted to remain in the UK in 2014 when we were promised Devo Max and that remaining in the UK would mean to remain in the EU?

    Liz g says:

    “The 56 MP’s that were elected promised not to try for Independence, which was a promise they kept”

    Yes, the SNP MPs are demanded to keep their promises while the unionist ones can break every promise they make and nothing happens. For goodness sake, even Theresa May walked all over the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act, after she promised she would not call a snap election when she already had a majority in Parliament but wanted a bigger one!!

    “Had they said elect us and if there’s a majority of us we will tell Parliament that we no longer hold ourselves bound by the terms and conditions of the Treaty of the Union,and are returning to Holyrood…. that’s a different matter”

    Precisely, Liz, so why didn’t they do that this time, considering that our devolution settlement is at stake, our assets are at stake, our economy and jobs are at stake, our NHS is at stake, our food industry is at stake, our social fabric is at stake, our democracy is at stake, and the unionist politicians are undermining the democratic decisions of our Parliament of Scotland? my only conclusion is because independence is not longer their main concern.

    “We don’t need permission we have always had the power to leave,but we need to demonstrate clearly that it’s the will of the majority”
    So why do we keep asking for permission? Why is it then more important what an English MP, elected by the voters of a constituency in another country and to protect the interests of that country is more important than what our own parliament in Scotland democratically decides or even what the people of Scotland democratically voted for in 2016? Why can an English MP that has not even managed to get the majority of the seats in Parliament stop this referendum?

    Thank you very much to all of you for your consideration and your answers. It does help a lot to discuss about this, but as you can see, every answer opens up for me new questions. Questions that personally I need to find an answer for if I want to know where I stand. I do not think I could withstand many more disappointments like 2014 or this (a majority SNP in Holyrood with a mandate for a referendum that means nothing to unionists, the undermining of our Parliament in Scotland and a majority of 56 in Westminster that has just been diluted to 35 by tactical voting to undermine the independence movement). Perhaps some day the Rev may decide to have a thread on this so we can discuss it in more depth.

    Thank you all again.

  10. heedtracker

    Thank you all again.

    Don’t ever stop asking and demanding Maria, especially btl Wings over Scotland:D

  11. Liz g

    You are very welcome Maria F.
    Don’t hesitate to ask those questions you have, it’s only when we stop questioning this stupid Union that we are truly assimilated.

    There’s always someone around who will try their best to answer.

    But more importantly….try and put a wee bit of distance,and not take it all so personally, otherwise it will burn you out and you will need to step back…. don’t take the risk that will happen just when we need someone as passionate as you.

    Not patronising you by the way please don’t think that.. I can see Scotland being asset striped daily too, I know this is important….

    But it’s also, I think important to get it right.
    Don’t forget we are up against an establishment that has a history of…if they can’t rule it, they wreck it…

    And they face for the first time in Centuries not being able to steal the resources of an other country!
    We will get there Maria,the Union was over the day they made the Vow!

  12. John from Fife

    Well didn’t Maria F make some very good points such as why didn’t the SNP stand for independence at the election. Why do they seem to require permission for a referendum.
    I am a member but they do seem to be turning into an establishment party.
    At the next televised debates the SNP should demand that only ONE Unionist party should take part against them at a time. They can take turns which party represents the Union and they should say if you don’t agree we do not appear. Also they should now start to push for devolved broadcasting and as someone previously said we can keep the 200 million which is not spent in Scotland.

  13. Liz g

    Well..John from fife @ 8.45..
    She did make some good points.. some very good points.
    But and it’s a big But… where are you getting establishment from??
    That doesn’t make any sense!
    Can ye mibbi define what exactly you mean by establishment..
    Then we will all know exactly whit we are debating here????

  14. Breastplate

    I would like Scotland to get a divorce whether people think it’s democratic or not.
    The only permission we need to seek is that of Scotland. We do not need to ask any other fucker.

    Also, If Scotland is to be independent, a Declaration of Independence is unfuckingavoidable. It is an announcement to the world that we are making our own decisions and we are open for business.

  15. Breastplate

    Also, while I’m having a rant.

    Independence is what I’m interested in, what I’m eager for Scotland to have. It’s what I believe people can get excited about, get enthused about.

    Satisfactory governance simply does not cut it, it is not sexy, it’s as simple as that. I couldn’t give a fuck about the window dressing in a shop somebody else owns. I don’t believe I’m alone in my thinking.

  16. Ghillie

    Heedtracker, Yesindyref2 and Liz g,

    Well said and thank you for taking the time to so patiently and kindly try to explain to Maria F why we are where we are and the process that is happening to bring us to a successful Indyref 2.

    Stoker has archived all of Wings’ articles on OT and reading through those, inluding the comments, would answer alot of Maria’s questions.

    I have followed the developments in the work towards Independence for many many years and have witnessed subtle and substantial steps towards that goal.

    Alex Salmond calling the 2014 Independence Referendum was pure genius.

    The result disappointing at the time but actualy well beyond expectations and seriously rattled the establishment. Hence their reluctance to conceed an inch since.

    Scotland’s entire future lies before us and it is important to get this right, to have the majority of the people of Scotland happy to take our leave of this rotten union.

    56 SNP MPs sent down to Westminster was an astounding statement to the entire World and again shook the UK establishment to the core.

    The SNP held the Torys’ feet to the fire at every turn. Their pressence and actions, which were often met with contempt, demonstrated that the Union of Parliaments does not work, never has and never will.

    Alot of folk still needed that contempt for Scotland within the UK corridors of power clearly demonstrated because they hadn’t taken it on board before.

    At times it might seem like a frustratingly slow process but we ARE moving forward and continue to win minds and hearts as well as recognition in the World wide media, the European Parliament and leaders and United Nations.

    All of which continualy and steadily undermines Westinster’s self appointed hold over this Nation as well as preparing the World for Scotland emerging again as the Independent Nation Scotland is suppossed to be.

    For now, our SNP Government in Holyrood has Independence at it’s heart and our Nation to run. Both are intrinsicaly intertwined.

  17. twathater

    THOMAS brothers tone @2.27

    Bang on I posted similar on a thread 2 days ago ,we ALL have to remember the 3 ar**hole parties along with the msm CONSTANTLY making this GE about indy ref 2 and yet the SNP WON 35 seats , that tells us the horses have not bolted

  18. yesindyref2

    Yes, it’s steady, and the minimum the 24 Unionist MPs are going to have to achieve in their time is more powers for Scotland, and again in the worst case so it goes on, bit at a time until there’s nothing left but an empty shell which can be discarded at any time.

  19. Ghillie

    So true Yesindyref2 = )

    Am away to our SNP meeting shortly and so lookin forward to continuing fighting for Scotlands Independence 🙂

    SNP plans to strengthen our Islands is heartening!

    And so the good work of the SNP continues without missing a beat!

  20. broken treatry

    when the snp wandered away from the issue of a independent scotland they aslo wander away from what the people of scotland want in there droves.we do not need to ask for permission to be independent or sovereign,we already are,we should not be waiting for a political party to give us the ok.nor should we do udi,which is dangerous for future generations of english and scots alike,nor should we all sign just one petition for independence as this is only recognised as just that.i think each individual has to stand up to the plate and send an independent claim of sovereignty statement to our goverment,by collecting scotlands people voice and signitures under one roof as a massive collection of petitions,we then stand stronger than any political party.we stand together as one nation,one country,one voice.we need hold copies of our individual claim of right ourselves on paper and computer so no ones voice gets lost in mainstream political cheating.we can do it lets put our money where our mouths are.

  21. The thistle

    I am with you all the way broken treaty,that is the most common sense I have read on all independence sites in a long time.if you can give any advice on how to form an independent claim of sovereignty and a date then I will do it,but we have to make sure that the people’s individual claims of right do not land on mundells desk or anyone’s similar in the Scottish subterfuge may take place, tories ,labour and libdems will try stop the people’s claiming their right.Do I think that the claims should be sent over say six months or a year.NO I DO NOT.They should be as close as possible before the opposition has time to act or think.I Do not trust them.WE the sovereign people of Scotland have the right even more than our own government,their hands are often tied politically,it is up to the people of Scotland.

  22. James che

    The massive large Undemocratic Elephant in the room that everyone just swans on by as if it did not happen in history. Debated in the English Parliament and decided against.

    The Scots were not to given a vote…….
    To join the treaty of the union….
    How are we doing on UDI now?

  23. James che

    Broken treaty.

    This is so similar to what I suggested a few years ago, I am with you.

    It is the people that are sovereign not a devolved government. If that is what we choose.

    Mind send a copy to the crown as well.

  24. James che

    The Thistle.
    Out of curiosity and no offence meant.
    How are you sharing my picture logo?

  25. James che


    You are not alone. But first you have to decide wether the Scots were ask to join the Treaty.
    It pays to look at the small print in all contracts.

  26. James che

    None of the comments are coming up since yesterday.

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