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The truth of the lobbies

Posted on August 13, 2017 by

To be honest with you, readers, we’re still trying to make some sort of sense of the whole “vote Scottish Labour to get independence” thing. Because try as we might we can’t think of a single way in which having a Scottish Labour MP is better than having an SNP one in terms of either independence OR socialism.

And it doesn’t take a lot of effort to see why.

The simplest way to break it down is by looking at some individual left-wing issues and seeing what each party’s policy and/or voting record is. So, for example:

RENEWING TRIDENT

SNP policy: clear, unequivocal opposition

Labour policy: Oh God, where to start? Who knows?

So (say) 50 SNP MPs would be 50 unambiguous and uncomplicated votes against a new Trident, while 50 Scottish Labour MPs would be a complete lottery. But official Labour policy, even under Corbyn, is to renew, so we have to assume that at least most of his Scottish MPs would obey the party whip and vote for it. Which means that a vote for any UK party is a vote to spend £200bn+ on new nuclear weapons.

But let’s wind back a bit. For any of this to be an issue you’d obviously need there to be a Labour government in the first place, so would that happen?

JEREMY CORBYN BEING PRIME MINISTER

SNP policy: the SNP has pro-actively and explicitly offered Labour a progressive anti-Tory alliance countless times, and made numerous explicit commitments never to vote for a Tory PM. They would put Corbyn into No.10, but then also be able to apply some leverage on him in Scotland’s interests in a way that Scottish Labour MPs couldn’t do even if they wanted to.

Labour policy: Scottish Labour is, we know, severely hostile to Corbyn, but we have to assume their MPs would at least vote him in as PM. However, whether they’d then continue to support him as leader once power was achieved is rather more of a question.

He would of course retain the backing of the Labour rank-and-file membership, but the Parliamentary Labour Party – most of which still loathes him – would have far more power over Corbyn in government than it does in opposition, because they could threaten to back a vote of no confidence.

But assuming Corbyn could stay PM, what then?

LEFT-WING ECONOMIC/TAXATION/WELFARE POLICIES

SNP policy: the Nats have a clear progressive track record both at Holyrood and in the Commons – mitigating (and thereby in effect abolishing) the bedroom tax, voting against the benefit cap, protecting universal benefits like free prescriptions, ending the right to buy and building more social housing, and rejecting Tory tax cuts for the wealthy.

Labour policy: in the last Parliament Labour infamously abstained on the welfare cap and cuts to child benefits, and on cuts to tax credits for the working poor.

The party’s 2017 manifesto, 20 months into Corbyn’s leadership, pledged to keep two-thirds of the further savage welfare cuts proposed by the Tories.

For 12 years and 11 months of the 13 years of Labour’s last administration, the upper rate of income tax was 5p LOWER than it currently is under the Tories, and Labour’s 2017 UK manifesto promised not to increase it even on people earning almost three times the national average wage of £27,600.

(If you’re on – to pick an example completely at random – an MP’s salary, you already pay more tax in Scotland under the SNP than you do in the rUK under the Tories, and more than you would under a Corbyn Labour government.)

We could go on like this, but the message is pretty clear. Even under Jeremy Corbyn, there are no policies where Labour are significantly to the left of the SNP.

(Indeed, Corbyn’s success has largely been built on pinching policies already enacted by the SNP in Scotland, like free university tuition, free meals for primary schools and – only temporarily, in Labour’s case – ending Right To Buy. Alert readers will of course recall that Scottish Labour, including its current leader, bitterly opposed most of these policies when the SNP introduced them.)

Such left-wing policies as Corbyn has would all be supported by SNP MPs, and this assertion is proven by their voting record – almost all of them have already been voted for by the SNP at Westminster in the last few years, even when Labour itself didn’t back them.

But SNP MPs would also support a second independence referendum, oppose a hard Brexit and oppose the renewal of Trident – three huge policies for any supposed radical, pro-indy, “internationalist” left-wingers. Scottish Labour MPs would do none of those things.

And conversely, we can think of literally nothing that Scottish Labour MPs would vote for at Westminster, from a radical left-wing perspective, that SNP MPs wouldn’t also vote for. We sincerely invite any examples to the contrary from any Labour voters or radical-left sorts reading this article.

So we’ll ask the question again, without any real hope of an answer: why on Earth would anyone in Scotland who genuinely wants independence ever vote for Labour?

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    1. 13 08 17 14:56

      The truth of the lobbies | speymouth

    139 to “The truth of the lobbies”

    1. Murray McCallum says:

      Given Labour’s present support for a Tory-run Brexit, past calls for immigration controls, “British jobs for British workers”,… I hope the we don’t hear any of their vacuous “solidarity” bullshit.

      It seems to be about image over substance.

    2. Cath says:

      Good pice, but I would add to it that supporting the constitutional status quo in the UK – which includes the unelected Lords and totally over-centralised rule which refuses to even acknowledge member nations of the UK as nations in their own right, entitled to a far greater level of autonomy – is also far from left wing.

      A Labour party entirely committed to the continuation of the UK establishment and it’s ridiculously out-dated governance is not progressive, not left wing and is, especially for the home nations, simply another face of the Tory party. Which is why it works so well with the Tories in Scotland, and why the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph et al are so happy to support Labour in Scotland while deriding it in England. That alone should tell anyone all they need to know about Labour, whose PR guy in Scotland is now the ex Daily Mail political editor.

    3. Muscleguy says:

      Delusion and seeing what you want to see seems to be the answer in the case of the self promoter under discussion.

      Also if Corbyn is your idea of a truly radical lefty then you have not been paying attention or been ridiculously influenced by the MSM which would invite comment on your judgement.

      I’m to the left of the SNP and while Corbyn would undoubtedly be better than any recent Labour leaders that isn’t saying much. Also if you think the Establishment would not use every trick to frustrate him you have also not been paying attention.

      I’m a bit surprised a black cab with strangely obscured plates etc hasn’t knocked Mr Corbyn off his bike yet. It might just be that the Establishment is not as scared of him as some would have us believe they should be.

      Vote Labour? not this side of Independence and a major change of character, characters and policies. I’m not sure SLAB is capable of that sort of reform. Not unless a huge number of SNP people stage a takeover post Independence. But then why would you do that? Just start a different party instead and push SLAB into irrelevance.

    4. yesindyref2 says:

      This is fine, but it doesn’t explain why, thinking over it carefully, people would vote Labour in Scotland because they love Corbyn.

      But that’s thinking, head over heart, and what perhaps it proves is that for many it’s heaet over head when it comes to voting.

      And that’s a lesson YES need to learn – remember all that head over heart stuff in Indy Ref 1, the Unionists were so mad over? A lot of people vote with the heart.

    5. Cathy makes an excellent point. The same newspapers that mercilessly attack Labour and Corbyn in England, happily support Kez and Co in Scotland while denouncing anything the SNP do.

      Should be obvious then to so-called media commentators like Bragg, wee Owen etc.

    6. gordoz says:

      “We could go on like this, but the message is pretty clear. Even under Jeremy Corbyn, there are no policies where Labour are significantly to the left of the SNP.”

      And that’s where I just dont get Kevin McKennas stance either Stu.

      Writes some good stuff and then drops howlers attacking SNP now and then ?

    7. Calum McKay says:

      red and blue tories, barely a cigarette paper between them on policy, tone and above all else, Scotland should continue to be ruled as a second class nation from London, for eternity!

      labour in Scotland had no raison d’être prior to 2017 general election, now their raison d’être is unionism, no matter the cost to the Scottish people, especially poor and vlunerable under right wing tory rule!

      Are we suppose to forget the shambles and infighting in labour for the past 10 years why they have let the poor get poorer and supported the tories, especially their incomprehensible stance on brexit!

      labour are a lying bunch of idiotic chancers who are prepared to see Scotland burn for a reason or principal that no sane observer can work out!

    8. Robert Graham says:

      I sincerely hope the advocates of ” the people’s republic of scotland ” are paying attention , this Elite band of we know best , with all due respect should listen to the majority and shut the f/k up , until after independence is won , after that by all means carry on and talk to themselves if that makes them happy .

    9. Helena Brown says:

      Like much in the Celtics Nations, it seems to come down to tribalism. We never seem to see the pragmatism practiced in England. When the Tories are not working for them they get ditched. Here, if the Labour Party isn’t working wait a bit, they will get it right eventually. I think there are those who are hypnotized by them, blind to their faults and encouraged by the Establishment to do so. What other excuse is there?

    10. yesindyref2 says:

      @gordoz
      The more he does it the better I think, as there are people who won’t vote Indy because they hate the SNP for some reason, but if he hates the SNP and still is a YES, then they can empathise with him and perhaps vote YES themselves.

    11. Bill McLean says:

      The deluded fools who think that one day there will be a socialist government at Westminster need to look around. Where are the one time socialist politicians, many of them, embarrassingly, Scots, now – they are either dead or in the House of Lords – which amounts to the same thing. I’m to the left myself but only a wee bit but I can see that never, ever will socialism ever be allowed to govern the UK. The only hope for left wing government is in an independent Scotland!

    12. heedtracker says:

      So we’ll ask the question again, without any real hope of an answer: why on Earth would anyone in Scotland who genuinely wants independence ever vote for Labour?

      Because esteemed organs like stinky old The Guardian say you can, like Ms Boyd got paid to do yesterday.

      Its a very odd union that has be held together by so much shameless deceit and so many bare faced liars.

      Scotland is a nation state, and a nation state far older than whatever union it is red tory SLab/Lab think they’re fighting to preserve.

    13. CmonIndy says:

      But there are squirrels. And they be red.
      Look up there – clouds and stuff.
      See them SNP, really really bad.
      All hail Cat Boyd.

    14. Dan Huil says:

      Corbyn is a britnat. Labour is a britnat party. They oppose Scotland’s fight for independence.

    15. colin alexander says:

      Stu Campbell says: “we can’t think of a single way in which having a Scottish Labour MP is better than having an SNP one in terms of either independence OR socialism.”

      I would agree with that. I would also agree that having an SNP MP does nothing to promote socialism or independence either.

      I can’t name a single SNP MP candidate that stood for socialism or independence in their election manifestos. ( That is a criticism of SNP strategy).

      But having an SNP MP does mean it’s one less Tory MP or SLab or LibDem MP that can ally themselves with the Tories. By electing an SNP MP the party can get more funds from the WM gravy train. ( So, there is some point in voting for an SNP MP and why the SNP is desperate to have WM MPs).

      But the fact is, all Scottish MPs are a waste of talent, time and money. They achieve nowt at great expense. Having 56 SNP MPs achieved nowt. Having 21 less will make no difference.

      Sending MPs there just legitimises the whole rotten UK WM system, but the SNP want/ need the WM money.

      The SNP are an integral part of UK Government Establishment as the Scottish administrators for WM devolution.

      So, it’s better to vote SNP, cos at least they’re no the Tories or their Better Together allies and the SNP might get more WM cash, but that’s about the only good reasons.

    16. Joemcg says:

      Totally agree. I’ve met quite a few staunch yes voters who cast their ballot for labour because of corbyn and I bet a few posters on here can echo that. Always got the hackles up and made me enraged. Don’t have a clue.

    17. Normally you cannae shut these leftards up,

      answer the question ya leftie goons,

      no middle ground,

      you are either for Scottish Independence or not,

      at least the Yoons are consistent in their love of Westminster control,

      but you leftards with your maybe Yes maybe No maybe Yes later maybe No today are a fricken waste of everyone`s time.

    18. JLT says:

      I know of folk who decided at the last election, that for them, Corbyn was their man, and therefore, voted Labour. To say the least, there was a range of comments on social media from ‘disappointment’ in the individual, to the rather unhelpful remarks of ‘please unfriend me from Facebook’.

      Like many others, I did query as to why they thought Labour seemed to be a better option in the election, while others bickered with the view that ‘…but you campaigned with us in the 2014 referendum, so why are you voting Labour?‘ That I found slightly annoying, because the 2014 was not an SNP vehicle, but a broad grassroots movement that included Yes folk who no matter what, voted Tory, Labour, Liberal, SNP or Green. Loyalty to political parties did not exist in the Yes movement. The Yes movement was bigger than any party.

      For those friends who were voting for Corbyn, they believed in one sense that the Yes movement had been ‘hi-jacked’ by the SNP and that the independence movement was now being controlled by one party rather than being a broader spectrum of Scottish society. In that I can see the argument. I also witnessed a couple of years ago at one SNP meeting, a heated debate took place where the Party wanted access to folk’s Facebook pages to see what their newly-joined members were posting. I found this on one level, rather alarming and not the best way to win new party members over, while a few others in the room were unsettled at having what they saw as ‘free speech’ being monitored. The debate ended with the idea being dropped to avoid real splits.

      Having the SNP ‘inherit’ the Yes Movement as well as asking folk to begin promoting SNP policies probably sat uneasily for many ex-Labour supporters. The Yes Movement has not asked them to do that; now they were being asked to do that very thing. In my view, the main body of the Yes Movement should not have been shutdown, nor should it have passed primarily to the SNP. I believe a lot of support drifted away from grassroots movement at that point, no matter how the SNP’s social policies benefitted the vast majority of the nation. However, though these folk may not vote SNP, the vast majority of them would still vote for independence if given the chance.

      Apathy, voter fatigue, Referendum fatigue, Brexit uncertainty also played their part in why folk may not vote SNP, but for many folk out there, while they may not vote SNP, they would still vote for independence.

      I’m hoping in time that a 2nd Yes Movement will be resurrected and that the mantle of the campaign is freed from the SNP (which I think would benefit the Party), thus making it a harder argument for Ruth and Co. To attack the Yes Movement is a very different beast from that of the SNP. I believe the independence movement suffered because placing the movement under what was perceived as SNP control made an easy target for Ruth and the Tories. But make it an actual independent Yes Movement free from any party …well, that is a different matter. It would put Ruth, Kezia and the rest of them on the backfoot completely as they would be attacking not a party, but around half of the Scottish electorate themselves. That in itself is a game changer in its own political way.

    19. annie says:

      I don’t think anyone seriously thought SNP would do so well in 2015 and with the opposition being so rubbish the MSM became the official opposition and started screaming one party state, a situation even people uninterested in politics didn’t care for no matter if the 56 were standing up for Scotland. They are now going out of their way to try to level the playing field a bit.

    20. colin alexander says:

      John – “I did not vote for the Iraq War” – Robertson, when he was the SLab MP, did not attend an SNP raised anti-Trident debate at WM. (He consistently voted for Trident renewal – and other Tory policies).

      The one time he did answer any of my letters ( it was coming up for election time and I guess he was worried) he explained he supported getting more nukes, cos then they can offer to trade them to get rid of them.

      So, basically because he opposed nukes he wanted the UK to get more of them. So, then they would have more to get rid of.

      Applying SLab “logic”:

      Maybe that’s why SLab campaigned for the Tories: They wanted more Tory MPs so then there would be more Tory MPs to get rid of at the next GE.

      It’s a joke – Haha.

    21. heedtracker says:

      If you’re in the mood for some shameless but classic BBC Scotland wtf SNP bad propaganda…

      Its a great idea too. Beeb Scotland gimps have apparently dumped hundreds of times more FoI’s on SNP Scots gov, than they ever did to the red tory SLabour crew, usually all for BBC Scotland’s ongoing Scottish NHS smear campaigning. Why ever would the UKOK gimp network not want us to see it all?

      Future Lord Tavish explains why, for BBC Scotland, who are a bit, lets say, coy:D

      http://archive.is/EdoHS

      Concerns have been raised about changes to the way Freedom of information (FoI) requests are handled in Scotland.

      All Scottish government FoI requests are now published online after complaints about late responses.

      The Scottish Liberal Democrats say journalists have been put off making requests because rivals get the answers at the same time.
      Ministers insist it shows Scotland has one of “the most open and transparent governments in the world”.

    22. Doug Daniel says:

      I think the missing factor here is emotion.

      The sad fact is there are a great many people who just WANT to vote Labour. Even through the Blair and Brown years, Labour was STILL seen as the party left-wing voters should vote for. Those who eventually stopped voting for them did so with huge reluctance. Just look at the phrase “I didn’t leave Labour, Labour left me.” In essence, what such folk are saying is “I’m still a Labour voter, it’s just that Labour are no longer the real Labour party.”

      As a result, it was inevitable that the SECOND Labour made any kind of noises about moving even SLIGHTLY back to the left, such voters would come flooding back. I know folk in Aberdeen who voted Labour in the council election despite everything they’ve done, who then expressed outrage when Labour went into coalition with the Tories, as if it wasn’t obvious all along that they’d do that. But that’s what happens when you’re inherently a Labour voter.

      This is why many of us in the indy movement made a big mistake in assuming all those Labour-to-SNP voters were now SNP voters. They’re not, they’re still inherently Labour voters – the SNP has merely borrowed their vote.

      It’s also why Labour would totally destroy the SNP if it ever became pro-independence. Which is deliciously ironic, considering it’s the one thing they refuse to do.

    23. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed: “The Scottish Liberal Democrats say journalists have been put off making requests because rivals get the answers at the same time.

      Aw diddums, I guess they don’t understand the meaning of the words “FREEDOM OF INFORMATION”. Clowns.

    24. yesindyref2 says:

      @Doug Daniel
      Indeed – all of what you said.

    25. G says:

      Folk like Boyd and Loki voted Corbyn because they’re too cool for school. They bought into the hype, just like the Britpop crowd bought into Blair in 1997. They saw a bandwagon and had to be on it.

    26. Arthur thomson says:

      There is no reason why anyone who understands the importance of Scotland being an independent country would support one of the unionist parties in a GE prior to independence. Those who claim otherwise are purely and simply being untruthful.

      A willingness to sell out the principles you previously claimed to be committed to is a characteristic of supporters of the Labour Party. Expediency is the one principle they can’t shrug off.

      Corbyn is an anachronism and a fraud. Those in Scotland who are supporting him at this time are similarly fraudulent.

    27. yesindyref2 says:

      In fact that could be a question in one of the Rev’s surveys.

      For the NOes or undecideds:

      “Would you vote YES to Indy if it automatically meant the SNP disbanding?”.

      and for YES voters:

      “Would you vote YES to Indy – even if it meant the SNP disbanding?”.

    28. heedtracker says:

      Aw diddums, I guess they don’t understand the meaning of the words “FREEDOM OF INFORMATION”. Clowns.

      Haha! Only beeb gimps could rant at Scots gov, YOU must keep our Freedom of Info investigations, a secret.

      And also get silly old Tavish to make their case.

      How very beeb gimp like.

    29. daideo says:

      The problem with the journalists complaining everybody gets the same information at the same time is that they will not be able to manipulate the info into SNP BAD if the figures are there for all to see!

    30. ScottishPsyche says:

      Part of the problem is that Labour has assumed ownership of the high ground with no justification. Many of their policies are at odds with social democracy never mind socialist principles.

      People like Cat Boyd, Billy Bragg and Owen Jones are desperate to believe that Labour can be the party of their imagination by ignoring the ludicrously conflicting stance of the component parts of Labour throughout the UK. Is Scotland to be the plaything of Labour again when England decides it wants to be rid of the Tories for a wee while?

      Have the SNP ever claimed to be socialist? No, of course, they haven’t – that is the absurd claim of others who resent that many people vote for their policies. The SNP want Independence for Scotland and in the pursuit of that to help make Scotland a better fairer place.

      Narrow Nationalism my arse Mr Bragg, you are hugely misguided and as much of a dupe as your fellow Corbynites.

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      @daideo / @heed
      Yes indeed, very clever move by the ScotGov – and only people with some nuts loose rattling around the bonce could complain. Single stroke – removes the misrepresentation of the results of the FOI, plus reduces the attractiveness of submitting thousands of FOI requests to try to muckrake a story out of nothing.

      Bascially speaking the unionists have screwed themselves into a contorted knot (I think that’s a type of misgenomed stunted tree).

    32. T.roz says:

      I love this piece,

      Beautifully explains how Corbyns Labour Party is a fraud. Corbyn is a swanky London git, and is a con man just like tony Blair.

    33. Derick fae Yell says:

      Why? Personal advancement. Cushy quasi-public jobs, a nice safe MSP/MP seat, a sinecure in the Lords in due course

    34. heedtracker says:

      T.roz says:
      13 August, 2017 at 2:30 pm
      I love this piece,

      Beautifully explains how Corbyns Labour Party is a fraud. Corbyn is a swanky London git, and is a con man just like tony Blair.

      Well why and how on earth did SLabour hire a Daily Heil henchman like this bizarre lad?

      https://twitter.com/alanroden?lang=en

      Its is the Momentum people that have got JC within an election of winning, maybe.

      And yet when the Momentum er, people, do come up to their Scotland region, to meet red tories like Kez, Duncan Hothersall, plants like Dr NO Scott Arthur etc…

      they are also going to have a top Daily Heil gimp, quietly sitting listening to all their plans for UK Momentum domination of the UK zone.

      Even if Roden is not sitting at Dugdale’s side, during these planning meetings with JC’s momentum, he will know everything that they are planning and will ofcourse be firing it all round the UKOK gimp hackdom network, starting with his neo fascist boss Paul Dacre.

      If I was a Momentum dude, making plans for a UK ruled by Jezza…

    35. Ian says:

      Never forget what Labour has done in the past to hold Scotland back so they can feed at the westminster trough.

      McCrone Report 1975 –

      ‘After discussions between St. Andrews House and the Cabinet Office in London, Prof. McCrone passed his report on to the new Labour government on 23 April 1975, along with a covering letter. The covering letter is the source of the oft-quoted phrase about “taking the wind out of the SNP’s sails”; Prof. McCrone was here outlining what actions he believed would be necessary to prevent support for the SNP from growing further.

      In 1975, a year after Professor McCrone had written his report, civil servants met in London to discuss its implications. They concluded that his findings had been accurate, and that the average income in Scotland would increase by up to 30% per head if the country became an independent state. The civil servants summed up by finding that there was “a good case for the continuation of the Union.”

      The report was classified as ‘secret’ by civil servants at the time, and successive UK Governments kept it so, over fears that McCrone’s findings would give a further boost to the SNP’s policy of Scottish independence. The report came to light in 2005 when the SNP obtained several UK Government papers under the Freedom of Information Act 2000′. In his evidence to the Lords Committee on the Economic Implications of Scottish Independence in 2012, Professor McCrone stated that Scotland’s GDP would increase by around 20% if North Sea oil were counted as part of it.

      Scottish Secretary Alistair Darling dismissed the (McCrone report) document. He said: “This is typical of the Nationalists, looking back to the past. This document is 30 years old.”

      Exactly Darling, because it was hidden for 30 years.

      Scottish Devolution Referendum 1979 –

      ‘The Scottish referendum of 1979 was a post-legislative referendum to decide whether there was sufficient support for a Scottish Assembly proposed in the Scotland Act 1978 among the Scottish electorate. This was an act to create a devolved deliberative assembly for Scotland. An amendment to the Act (introduced by Labour) stipulated that it would be repealed if fewer than 40% of the total electorate voted Yes in the referendum. The result was that 51.6% supported the proposal, but with a turnout of 64%, this represented only 32.9% of the registered electorate. The Act was subsequently repealed’.

      Had the same amendment applied to the Brexit referendum it would have resulted in a different result. Yet Labour support the result of the Brexit referendum because it was a “democratic decision”.

      A complete history of labour’s abstentions over the past 30 years would make it clear where they stand on most ‘tory’ policies. The end result of decades of westminster’s self interest is clear to see. The UK has badly lagged behind all comparable countries for decades – wealth (GDP per capita PPP), investment, health spending, trade balance of payments.

      Labour or tory, it makes no difference. They are different sides of the same coin. Heads you lose, tails you lose.

      http://www.theglobaleconomy.com/compare-countries/

    36. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, “misgenomed stunted dead tree press”.

      I think I’ll copyright that and grant a free licence for use to Indy supporters – or even unionists with the express condition it’s not used about the new alive upright full-size straight-talking National!

      Anyway off for tomorrow’s birthday picnic as it’s sunny today.

    37. Clapper57 says:

      In answer to your question I would say that if anyone voted for Labour in Scotland then they are pro……Union…..cause Labour in Scotland (and HQ) have made it crystal clear that they……DO NOT SUPPORT INDEPENDENCE….now or in the future….Unionists through and through.

      Strangely enough Billy Bragg used to be quite supportive of Scottish independence…..but now that he sees a possibility of a Corbyn led Labour party potentially gaining power he ….like other ‘socialists’ is back tracking in the hope that Scotland will once again vote Labour……..which shows power corrupts all people irrespective of their political persuasion.

      One only has to look at Owen Jones as a classic example of someone who , at the mere whiff of Labour potentially gaining power, is willing to abandon previous held opinions.

      Labour is no friend to Scotland….never has been and never will be…..if they want them in England then so be it…..let them enjoy it…..while it lasts…..because Corbyn will NOT last and neither will the Labour party….and there is the rub.

      Scotland should not be suckered into a another viscous circle of ever changing UK governments dependent only on the vote of one country and one country only within the UK….time we got off the merry go round and when independent we can vote , and get, the government WE voted for.

      Corbyn does NOT have the confidence of all of his MP’s. He is only being tolerated by those MP’s, who still rebuke him, because the last GE was not a complete disaster for Labour….however only an idiot would think that this sham support will be sustained….and I truly hope some Scots are not deluded into thinking Labour have in any way changed…..Corbyn is VERY supportive of other countries in the world being independent but his support does not extend to a country within his own supposed union of countries…..and that speaks volumes as to why he is no different from any other unionist leader.

      Corbyn is for renewing Trident, is not seeking to abolish all of the Tory austerity cuts, is against Scottish Independence, is pro Brexit and is resolved to leaving the SM and CU and his party still has MP’s such as Ian Murray, Hilary Benn , Owen Smith, Angela Eagle, Ian Austin, Stephen Kinnock, Jess Phillips,John Woodcock and many others who were part of the rebel alliance……and who still are.

      If some Scots are willing to be fooled again into voting for this sham of a party….. where some of the MP’s , are as much ‘socialist’ as Thatcher was………then the result will be that unfortunately people like us, who want independence, will have to suffer the consequences of those very Scots misplaced loyalty and blindness, a consequence that will bind us to this unequal non union for more years than we really should be……..it would also prove that you can indeed fool some Scots not just once or twice but indeed many times …where no shame or accountability is felt…..but where the impact is imposed upon others, who are wise enough to see what is happening….been there done that and now moved on.

      Fool me once etc etc ….

    38. Shinty says:

      O/T Salmon Unleashed – first guest, David Davis!

      Oh how I wish I had a ticket. Any Wingers there, please give us some feedback.

    39. ronnie anderson says:

      yesindyref2 2.13 This isn’t the 1st time that question has been touted ( stupid as stupid does ) must be a radical left winger idea .

    40. Maria F says:

      The concept of left or right is always subjective to what you use as the standard. Currently labour, when compared to UKIP and Tories, gives the false impression of being ‘left’. But if you use the labour before Blair as standard, then it is not longer left or nor even center. It is to the right.

      There is nothing left or progressive in overruling the expressed democratic will of 2 entire nations in the UK for the sake of another one, which coincidentally holds your biggest voting base. This is not being progressive, this is being self-serving.

      There is nothing ‘left’ or ‘progressive’ in backing a damaging brexit won on the back of an advisory referendum and on the basis of lies and deceit. There is nothing ‘left’ or ‘progressive’ in blindly supporting brexit when a 65% of your voting base rejected brexit at the polls (from a yougov poll on 27 June 2016).

      Labour may be using the pro brexit English+Wales vote as a shield, but their disregard for the democratic vote of 2 of the 4 nations of the UK and their main voting base is why makes me think that the idea that labour are ‘left’ or ‘progressive’ is the wrong one. They are capitalising on their past as a left of centre and on having a Leader that is perceived as ‘hard left’ to hide their current non progressive tendencies. But I think that sooner or later their house of fake left cards is going to come crumbling down.

      But in my view the most obvious sign that shows them for the non-progressive party they really are is the fact that they are prepared to walk over democracy in the separate nations of the UK to give extra oxygen to an outdated status quo that is falling short of the democratic standards in the rest of Europe and that treats the UK not as a union but as an imperialistic power and its three colonies. But of course, this is an outdated system that helps to preserve a two party dynamics that favours Labour. Again, this is not progressive, this is self-serving.

    41. Corbyn is as integral a part of the SE Establishment as Jacob Rees Mogg.
      The Them and Us dynamic is at the very heart of the WM Parliamentary game. Equilibrium has been re-established. The Left are the poor, the ill educated, the unwashed drunks and druggies, the right is might, posh folk, and the Queen.
      All very neat and tidy.

      Corbyn is in his late sixties and has spent his political career playing the loony left but harmless veggie Militant, who found himself pitchforked into front line politics because his generation of Chancer New Labour gravy trainers have gone on to pastures new, very profitable jobs working for the Man and propping up the Ultra Right Wing Establishment which they purported to oppose when they spent decades taking the money, filling in the expenses forms, flipping their houses, and now in old age are sitting back and laughing at us all for being so stupid and gullible.

      This lass, whose name I will not write, is perhaps one in a long line of trough fillers.

      Her face is everywhere, her articles and interviews the stuff of silly season summer fare, and of course the Unionists love it; it seems so easy to manipulate and control a willing Nat.

      Offer them air time, column inches, get David Torrance to praise them from the high heavens, talk about a book deal, and there are some in our midst who find that they are prepared to sell their granny, to climb the blood drenched pole to eventually be the next Beast of Ballsover (typo deliberate), the pet Leftie which serves as Court Jester to the Elite, Wealthy, Masters of the Universe.

      Are you Pro Self Determination? If so, Red Blue and Yellow Tories will not deliver, nay, will violently oppose your wishes for an Independent Scotland. Yet you would vote for one of their candidates?

      It takes a special kind of morality, or perhaps a weekly column in the Scottish Express, to come to terms with that sort of twisted logic.
      There can be no other explanation.

    42. Terry says:

      JC would back any other county getting Indy but scotland. He’s not daft. He knows how beneficial our resources are to the uk. Hence he’s just another exploitive unionist. I wish he’d just admit it.

    43. John Moxey says:

      There have been some excellent comments so far. I would add 5 observations.

      Jeremy Corbyn was voted for, not because of the Labour Party voting record, or even what Jeremy Corbyn promised in this election, but for the direction of travel and the perceived promise, that electing Jeremy Corbyn would curb the excesses of the Tories, would reshape the parliamentary party, and to support the grassroots surge from socialists South of the border. Socialists here have a lot in common with socialists in England and they were backing Corbyn.

      Main Stream Media hyped Corbyn’s Socialist credentials, and the danger he posed to the British establishment. He would remake the Labour Party, clean out Westminster and herald in a period of peace and nuclear passivity by refusing to use any nukes. The MSM also gave a lot of coverage of Corbyn rallies, and the grass roots popularity of a socialist message. Often this was followed by ridicule, but for Scottish socialists those rallies, and the generally socialist messages… with key words like “re-nationalise” sprinkled around. Additionally, and very importantly, the MSM has kept it’s anti-SNP, anti-independence campaign going since 2014. It hasn’t stopped. Misinformation and lies has increased uncertainty.

      Social Media Unionist Socialists. They are fiercely anti-SNP. On fundamentals socialists largely agree. For many independence is largely a question of strategy. Unionist socialists spent a lot of effort trying to convince that the SNP were right of Corbyn, that the independence surge was spent. They also spent a lot of time trying to establish that the SNP were a false socialism, while Corbyn’s version of similar policies was the real deal.

      Europe. Even the so called internationalist socialists are largely anti-EU. It is perceived as a neoliberal construct. So much so, that even when an internationalist socialist thinks about spreading their message and connection across Europe, they are not stuck on doing it via the EU. They may not have specific alternatives in mind… but much of the election was fought on perception and vague notions, not fact. For many, however, they are like Jim Sillars, more hostile to the EU than Westminster.

      Vision. Brexit outlined a vision, all together against the world. It was fragmented. Loved and loathed, but it was still a vision. The SNP spoke of economics within the Union, spoke of their right to hold indieref 2, wasted breath on rebranding it “scotref”, but they failed to do what they were so good at when part of the wider Yes movement. They failed to articulate a positive case for independence. They tried to undermine Unionist party’s economic visions, spent effort denying those party’s rubbishing of the case for independence, but since 2014 they have completely failed to present a coherent case for independence. Yes they launched consultations, yes they went and thought…. but the last vision for independence was beaten at the ballot box, and the SNP suddenly had nothing to offer but that beaten vision.

      They have been so wedded to their pro-EU message that they alienated a chunk of previous SNP supporters. They have allowed the independence debate to be dictated by Unionists. They have developed a vision of independence that is firmly within the EU, in part to attract pro EU voters…. while losing all their own anti EU voters. They would have done better to have developed an “independence first” narrative while promising to offer a referendum on joining the EU, joining Norway in EFTA (a fairly popular option) or going it alone, after independence. Indeed, their pro-EU vision has still not been revitalised. It was essentially what had already been rejected at the ballot box. Had they even put the same case with a firm Scottish currency it would have been something new. Instead they largely fought on a message of staying in both Unions, for now, with an uncertain promise to have a re-run of 2014, using essentially an already undermined, already defeated vision that was in essence “okay you aren’t sold on this, but at least it isn’t as bad as Brexit” message.

      They need to rebuild a positive vision asap. It should now be “well we have been taken out of Europe, so here us our positive vision for an independent Scotland. At some point we should reconsider our relationship with the EU… continue outside the EU, rejoin the EU, or to join EFTA. I think we should consider that sooner than later, but that is a question for another time”.

    44. K1 says:

      The Independence train is sitting on the platform waiting for the track re alignment a wee bit further down the line. People like Cat got aff the train tae huv a pee, as she came oot the loo, she lost her way back to the Independence train and ended up in a big crowd of people who were just visiting Scotland fur the day.

      There was a huge crowd and she noticed there seemed to be someone talking at the centre of the gathering, she made her way through the throng to find out who it was. It was Jeremy Corbyn, a quiet wee man who seemed to have people enthralled by his soft spoken words. She too became mesmerised, he seemed to be promising a new nirvana that would include Scotland. She looked around and noticed there were film crews and a lot of journalists that she recognised from a couple of years earlier, when she’d become quite popular as someone who was able to get a certain demographic aboard the Independence train as it travelled through Scotland picking up momentum as the possibility of Independence became a near reality.

      The journalists noticed her too and she had a wee bit of a rapport with one or two of them. As the quiet man finished his ‘impromptu’ speech on the platform, the crowd began to disperse, but Cat didn’t immediately head back to the Independence train. She went for a wee drink with some of those in the crowd, spent a nice evening discussing his ‘vision’, and was of a mind to believe that it was possible for that vision to be implemented across the UK.

      She failed to observe two crucial details about that fateful encounter. The first was that this was a day trip to Scotland by the wee quiet man. The second is that this was a recruiting mission to seek out those who had any kind of influence within the Scottish Independence movement and see if they could be persuaded to come back on board the Union train. Jeremy comes to Scotland to ‘speak’ left and in England he speaks ‘right’. But Cat didn’t understand that, she thought it was about her feelings and her outlook and her conflict. So she decided to go back to the Independence train, stand on the platform, and gather a wee crowd around and tell them of ‘his’ vision and of how people needed to just step off the Independence train and walk across the platforms to board the Union train. Cause Jeremy’s ‘vision’ is her ‘vision’.

      Cat inadvertently became the Union’s recruiter, of course Cat doesn’t see it this way, because Cat believes she’s right to air ‘her’ views as an ‘former’ Independence supporter who has now been converted by the London Labour Party’s latest ploy to undermine the Independence movement in Scotland.

      The moral of the story is: go tae the loo wi yer pal and stay away from crowds gathering around the ‘new messiah’. Whoever the media happen to say who he is.

      Can I just add, John McTernan joined Momentum. Cat Boyd is now on the same team as him. 😉

    45. Walking on Sunshine says:

      Is the Labour Party in Scotland the same as the Labour Party in Wales?

      Or are they two different parties?

      Is there a Labour Party in England? And if so is it the same as the Labour Party in Scotland?

      Is the Labour Party in England a UK party? Or is it just in England? If indeed there is a Labour Party in England.

      Are there two Labour Parties in Scotland? The Scottish Labour Party and the UK Labour Party?

      Is the Scottish Labour Party a UK party? Or is just confined to Scotland?

      How many Labour Parties are there and is there one in Northern Ireland?

      Are any or all of these parties properly registered somewhere, or are they just making them up as they go along?

      The voters demand to know who or what they are voting for.

      If indeed they are voting Labour, which at the end of the day are just Red Tories.

      Confused or what?

    46. Capella says:

      Time for a documentary, “Labour, The Wilderness Years”.

      New Labour destroyed the Labour Party and it flounders about looking for a compass. Some SNP policies have appeared in their recent manifesto. But they are essentially a neo-liberal right-wing unionist party with a left of centre leader.

      Scottish Labour supporter could follow the example of their one time hero, Jimmy Reid, and join the SNP. If he can see the light, why can’t they?

      “Reject the values and false morality that underlie these attitudes. A rat race is for rats. We’re not rats. We’re human beings. Reject the insidious pressures in society that would blunt your critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that would caution silence in the face of injustice lest you jeopardise your chances of promotion and self-advancement. This is how it starts and before you know where you are, you’re a fully paid-up member of the rat-pack. The price is too high. It entails the loss of your dignity and human spirit. Or as Christ put it, “What doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Reid

    47. Robert Louis says:

      “So we’ll ask the question again, without any real hope of an answer: why on Earth would anyone in Scotland who genuinely wants independence ever vote for Labour?”

      ANSWER: Stupidity.

    48. Shinty says:

      Jees- oh, apologies Mr Salmond. (unforgivable mistake)

      Salmond Unleashed.

    49. K1 says:

      It’s the same wi Tories and Libdems Walking on Sunshine, they just stick Scottish/Welsh/not sure about Irish, in front of the Party name and hey presto, confusion abounds, but as the Rev skewers so neatly, they have different policy positions within the separate admisnstrations, the reality is though that each ‘regional’ administration absolutely takes their lead from their respective London based HQ’s. That’s a fact.

      Dugdale/Davison and Rennie are merely branch managers in Scotland and therefore can be replaced by HQ at any time, They’re telt what to do,

      SNP HQ is in Scotland and our MP’s take their lead from our FM. They are both sides of the border completely dedicated to the interests of all the people in Scotland. That’s a fact.

    50. Clapper57 says:

      @ K1 says:@ 3.57

      “Can I just add, John McTernan joined Momentum. Cat Boyd is now on the same team as him”

      ———————————————–

      Hi K1, I saw that…..and someone cleverly tweeted something to the effect of …..will it now be known as New Momentum.

      Hmm….I wonder…..Lol

    51. galamcennalath says:

      It’s the media again.

      Firstly, Scotland gets most of its news and current affairs as England centric output from London. If you don’t follow politics closely and you tune into main UK wide TV/radio bulletins then you get a very warped view the true Scottish situation.

      Secondly, if you tune into the so called Scottish news, then you get at best omission and at worst completely fake stories. Anyone who isn’t politically minded still won’t know what’s actually going on.

      So, all those folks who are just getting on with their busy lives and don’t think much about politics between votes, are going to draw some rather odd conclusions!

      They are told Corbyn stands for this and that, but are they aware these refer only to England? Many won’t be.

      Then, they are rarely told what the SNP stand for and what achievements they have made in Scotland. They will never be told when services in Scotland are being delivered better thanks to the SNP.

      A perfect example is that at IndyRef1, more than half of Scots thought the NHS was one UK wide organisation!

      Many Scots will be quite oblivious to reality in Scotland, yet have a grasp of English affairs!

      Is it any surprise folks believe Corbyn is relevant to Scottish matters!?

    52. Ian McCubbin says:

      Excellent comparison a d exactly where I will refer friends who harp on about how good Corbyn and labour are.
      We have a lot to thank SNP for both in Holyrood and Westminster.
      Now hey need to go ahead with Indy.

    53. Ottomanboi says:

      When Scots learn that being British is incompatible with being ‘actually’ Scottish we will have taken a giant step to liberation. We have to get Britishness, North Britishness, out of the collective head. It’s eating our brains, our reason, our future. To put it basically, ScotBrits have shit for grey matter. Nationalists take note too, they’re not immune.

    54. Meg merrilees says:

      Great article – lays it out clearly for all to understand, including SLAB

      O/T

      Independence; do the indians care about the British anymore?
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40887900

      Interesting read about modern india’s attitude to the Colonisers also reports the Amritsar Massacre.
      But I loved this phrase from diplomat and MP Shashi Tharoor:-
      “As the wheels of history turn, the cycles move on, you will find that history is its own revenge,” he says with a smile.
      “Watching Theresa May come cap-in-hand to Indian businesses looking for Indian money to revive her post-Brexit economy is to my mind the best kind of revenge you could possibly want.”

      Sweet!

    55. David S. Briggs says:

      If Barak Obama favoured something during his eight years in power, Donald Trump is now against it. According to sources in Europe it’s the first question Trump asks at meetings. If Obama was in favour of a policy, automatically The Donald says he isn’t.
      Something similar occurs to Scotland within the UK. If Scotland is for it, the knee jerk reaction is to reject it. There are parallels between Trump and Theresa that cant just be a coincidence. They must be comparing notes?

    56. Meg merrilees says:

      Ottomanboi

      Agree!

      Britishness is ingrained tho!

      I was listening to the radio this morning, BBC R4 round up of the papers ( with of all things, Jacob Rees-Mogg commenting on The Star) as it finished, the contributors relaxed and began to chat informally about their holidays.

      Genuinely shocked to hear the woman describe how she had been to St. Kilda and how amazing it had been to finally get to the most westerly part of Britain.

      Many in the south just think of Scotland as an extension of England.
      It’s time we reinforced the fact that we are Scottish in everyday situations.

      I don’t buy British raspberries but I’ll happily buy Scottish ones, even if they’re twice the price.

    57. Macart says:

      Hmmm. No, Mr Corbyn’s Labour, or indeed any other kind of Labour won’t make for a fairer, more progressive settlement for Scotland. Devolution, ANY kind of national devolution within the UK, is merely a means of controlling satellite legislatures. It certainly won’t progress independence for an absolute certainty.

      There are no mainstream parties with enough votes or seats out there, other than the SNP, who could or indeed would further self determination for Scotland’s population (that is not a dig at the Greens, merely the current political landscape). No other major party would even acknowledge or grant Scotland’s electorate the right to choose.

      NONE.

      To vote for Labour or the Libdems hoping that someday maybe never they’ll deliver a federal solution, which they could NEVER realistically guarantee delivery of, is merely voting for continuance of business and politics as usual. As for voting Tory? Oh, take a wild guess. They don’t even pretend to approve of devolution, never mind the federal carrot.

      The SNP don’t govern a Scotland that voted for independence near three years ago. They govern a Scotland that narrowly voted for continued devolution and yeah, that means participating in Westminster politics because that is what they were instructed to do by their own electorate. That means mitigating rather than legislating directly. That means getting slapped in the face repeatedly by their opposition and a hugely hostile media daily and it means being forced to standy by as their country and its electorate get dropped into an economic and constitutional clusterfuck by the biblical arrogance and idiocy of central government…

      …because that is what the majority instructed them to do. To abide by the devolved settlement and participate in UK politics. They are guided by a democratic mandate and hamstrung by the walls the electorate built around them, not walls they built themselves.

      Maybe worth a thought should the odd ballot come along. The walls we build, we can also take down.

    58. Richardinho says:

      Here’s how it makes sense: It makes sense because a prospective Labour government can automatically include Scottish Labour M.P.s as counting towards the number they require to get into office. Scottish SNP M.P.s, on the other hand, they cannot, and would have to go about making a deal with them. (Obviously, this would be the almost certain benefit of Scotland). Whilst the SNP would probably accept a deal, it would be politically awkward for the Labour party to make such a deal due to the English media having an antipathy towards the idea of Scottish politicians having any say in the running of the United Kingdom.

      Hopefully that explains it. In summary: If you think anti-Scottish racism by the British establishment is perfectly acceptable and we shouldn’t try to take a stand against it, then voting Labour makes perfect sense.

    59. colin alexander says:

      @Macart

      No issues with most of your post, except “Scotland..narrowly voted for continued devolution”.

      I would disagree with that.

      Scotland voted NO. NO is a negative, it’s not a vote FOR anything, just a vote against.

      So, we had Project Fear that just set out to create fear and confusion about independence, so people would vote NO.

    60. Robert Graham says:

      Aye Labour in Scotland , A tool for the use of the Tory party, as and when required.
      They will probably try a different form of deception this time, and embrace Corbyn as the new Messiah who will be promoted as being just a heartbeat away from being PM , let’s hope there are enough of them with some sense, and memory retention to see through this obvious Fraud
      and dismiss the forthcoming Kezia Damascus like about turn as she welcomes Corbyn to help her return Scotland to the Labour family, Enough to make you puke at the hypocrisy of them .

    61. Hamish100 says:

      Ultimately we will have a referendum to be a self governing nation deciding for ourselves (what laws we wish, whether we want nuclear weapons and be a target and whether we support and wish to help our fellow human beings) prior to Brexit or we will formally become subsumed into England as preferred by the britscots masquerading as labour Tories and liberals.

      The vow has gone no more devo plus or any other side show. Independence or poverty

    62. Legerwood says:

      Mega merrilees @ 5.44

      I think India has drunk deeply and eaten fully of that cold dish:revenge.

      Tata industries own what used to be British Steel. For Tata that must taste sweet. In the late 19th century Jamsetji Tata tried to start steel making in India and faced every possible obstacle the British Raj could think up. Eventually his sons managed to start making steel in India.

      How sweet must it have been for the family when they took over what remained of British Steel when they bought Corus in 2006.

      Tata also owns Jaguar and Land rover- iconic British brands.

      Their hotel group, Taj Hotels, also have some hotels in London in some very classy areas.

      Truly it is a long road that has no turning.

      It also raises the question of what the UK would trade with India because they, or at least TATA seem to own a good chunk of it.

    63. Ottomanboi says:

      @Meg merrilees
      It’s the fly in the nat ointment. Too many think it is possible to reconcile our national independence with the anglocentric ‘community of the ‘British Isles’. Salmond has at some time waxed lyrical on the topic. The Irish don’t even recognise the geographic concept of the ‘British Isles’. We might try to do likewise, for until we do we will keep the chains of dependency.

    64. Bob Mack says:

      Labour ? –Take a sack of cats and add 10 ferrets and one large rat. The result would be an accurate description of Labour in power.

    65. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      India also drinks deeply from the jobbie-filled Ganges.

    66. Tackety Beets says:

      Forgive me if I missed it.

      The thing that strikes me most in all this rubbish we get from Scottish Labour is ” SNP BAD blah blah blah ” followed by “SNP need to use the new powers they have” by this they mean raise more funds by increasing Income Tax …in fairness some SLAB do say those words “Increase Tax”

      Then along comes the next report which includes “but Scotland is the highest taxed part of the U.K. Under this SNP Gvt”
      Again WTF do SLab want ?

      Thank you again Rev for bringing sanity to my mind with your excellent posts , they bring clarity to the mambo jumbo our MSM & BBC brain wash us all with.

      I’m sure 99% on here are all united in our quest for a YES , as Jimmy would say divided my arse!

    67. Ghillie says:

      RN That was a minging statement and not at all relevant.

    68. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve got BBC2 on at the moment – “Secrets Of Silicon Valley”.

      Well worth seeing on catchup if you can. Shows how organisations like Cambridge Analytica and the tech people in individual campaigns can do evaluations of individual web users, through their use of social media, Google, Amazon and so on, in order to direct persuasive ads and messages at them.

      The success of the Trump campaign is attributed to these methods.

      Scary stuff!

    69. galamcennalath says:

      colin alexander says:

      Scotland voted NO. NO is a negative, it’s not a vote FOR anything, just a vote against.

      So, we had Project Fear …. so people would vote NO.

      I, for one, will never ever believe that. Many chose NO in the belief that it did stand for something i.e. the DevoSuperFederalMax that a long line of Unionists backed by the entire media were offering.

      I wrote this almost three years ago and still believe it to be what happened …

      galamcennalath says:
      28 October, 2014 at 1:20 pm

      Cameron was confident the Union was safe, until the week ending the 5th September when suddenly it was under real threat.

      I am convinced it was all a preprepared plan. Over the weekend of the 6-7th the last ditch strategy was unleased. 8th it began with Brown on every TV channel. Then for 10 days in a concerted effort they all pushed promises, but in a subtle woolly deniable style. It was all intentional, planned and coordinated. IMHO, that DR Vow was not a last minute lash up, it was part of a very devious well thought out and prepared plan to undermine the democratic process.

      The three stooges were not bystanders, they were part of the conspiracy. But, deniably, of course.

      I was told, earlier in the summer, from someone who was ‘inside the bubble’ and knew far more that I, that Cameron would offer DevoMax if he thought he would lose. It was all planned.

      My reaction was that was a fair enough consolation prize and would take Scotland much closer to full independence …. if Scots chose it.

      What I didn’t quite appreciate at that time was how the plan would work. DevoSuperFederalMax was to be offered in a woolly way which wasn’t backed up by government. DevoMax was popular, so of course it won the day. It was a preplanned callous stitch up.

      I honestly believe the Vow and everything which accompanied it, gave enough people the excuse to believe voting NO would still achieve something.

      Project Fear had almost worked, however I understand that on the 5th Sept private polling revealed YES could win, the plan was executed, and we are now where we are with the 2014 referendum having settled nothing.

    70. Lochside says:

      Thanks Ian @2.42 for ( something which must be repeated) clearly outlining two major pieces of treachery: McCRONE’S suppressed Report and the rigged 1979 Referendum result.

      Add in the 1999 removal by Blair and the ‘Father of Scottish Devolution’ the collaborator Dewar of 6000 square miles of Scottish water and its territorial resources to English direct control… and you have a perfect trinity of treachery by the ‘People’s party’ (which people?)

    71. ben madigan says:

      @ walking on sunshine who asked if there was a labour party in Northern Ireland

      British labour does not officially stand candidates and canvas in NI because it states its sister-party the Irish nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP, ostensibly aiming at a United ireland) does so in its stead.

      Its seats were annhilated, like the Ulster Unionist Party’s, in the last Westminster election.

      There were some unofficial and unsuccessful moves to re-constitute a NI labour party (NILP) which used to exist in the 1940-60s.

      As far as I know they got nowhere and were not approved by the British Labour Party. No candidates stood in the last Westminster election.

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, Jeremy Corbyn as you’ve never seen him before:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y2uIhbzxO4

    73. twathater says:

      Whats most frustrating is that people young and old who think Corbyn will make a difference are so deluded and misinformed

      The UK is ruled by the establishment and for all his intentions of fairness even the troughers within his party will block ANY socialist policies , FFS look at their voting pattern over the past few years , abstentions and support of damaging tory social poicies

      It is unbelievable that ANY older or elderly person within or without Scotland doesn’t remember the absolute clusterfcuk of liebours gross mismanagement of the UK and Scotland in particular

      In Scotland the lies , broken promises , endemic corruption , malfeasance and total lack of any honesty and integrity towards the electorate is well documented throughout most of the online blogs.

      Do people honestly think that slab have seen the light and all their transgressions are in the past ,FGS they won’t or don’t think they have done any wrong , it is their ENTITLEMENT , if the people are too stupid to realise this and keep voting us in then its their own stupid fault

      In all honesty voters of liebour please take a look at the cabal of liebour politicians representing you and Scotland and ask yourselves , with the constant demeaning ,vilification , denigration and openly downright lies told about our doctors , nurses , SNHS , police , railways and other local services are they really working for the betterment of Scotland , and remember what it was like when they were in power i certainly remember what it was like and i will never vote liebour again , they have abused the trust and faith of the Scottish people

    74. bowanarrow says:

      I love being in a room of the converted.
      It is always nice to be preach to by
      the choir.
      I have a very sneaky feeling that, in
      reality, the SNP don’t want independence.
      They seem to be keeping that idea on the
      back burner, a little tease to keep us
      all interested. Think about it, if we get
      independence who do you all intended
      to vote for then? I bet a lot of you wont
      be voting for the SNP.
      SO, like I said, the SNP need devolution
      not independence. Independence could be
      the end of their political careers in Scotland.
      Just a thought.
      We need to stop preaching to each other
      about things we already “ALL AGREE ABOUT”,
      and we should be talking directly with
      the SNP. Making THEM blatantly aware of
      OUR WANTS.

    75. Ghillie says:

      To me Jeremy Corybn is a Toom Tabard.

      Actualy, worse.

      I think I am not only witnessing empty promises that, in the small print are limited by funds permitting, but also flip flopping about on issues as massive as Trident which I had, historicaly, been lead to believe Mr Corbyn was ALWAYS dead againgst.

      On Trident, what a betrayal. How could he?

      On Scotland, Jeremy Corbyn could have appeared to have some degree of integrity and intelegence if, on promising free tution and the rest, he had conceeded that much of that had already been implemented and protected here in Scotland by the SNP Government.

      And that he aspired to that for the people of England, Wales and the north of Ireland too.

      But no.

      Mr Corbyn seems to bearly know where Scotland is let alone what actualy goes on here.

      Kez and crew are not likely to pass on any good news about how we do things here, quite the opposite, so the poor man will still be in the dark.

      Have to agree with Kez, Mr Corbyn is not leadership material.

      Though, Corbyn as a staunch unionist (at least as far as Scotland is concerned) is TOTALY aware that Scotland is his cash cow and his party too would struggle without those revenues.

      Why are folk taken in by the recent appearance of Corbyn ? Alot of what has been said above, like Doug Daniel @ 1.57 pm

      I think we have witnessed the effect of a veil of glamour thrown over Jeremy Corbyn by the manipualtive media acting as good fairy. The image presented is not the reality.

      Weakness, lack of knowledge, lack of interest, inability to lead, and really bad – betraying earlier convictions on the removal of nuclear weapons, all converted by a media dazzle to the very opposite.

      And that veil of glamour is what has fooled Miss Boyd too.

      (K1 @ 3.57 pm Liked your take on Miss Boyd’s being mesmerised too!)

    76. msean says:

      I think it’s a bit silly to vote for the party that helped keep you down,and colluded with their century old Tory opponents to do it.

      The same folk from the same party that celebrated our defeat also made sure that the Tories got back in again. Looks like we never learn.

    77. Robbo says:

      bowanarrow says:
      13 August, 2017 at 9:27 pm
      I love being in a room of the converted.
      It is always nice to be preach to by
      the choir.
      I have a very sneaky feeling that, in
      reality, the SNP don’t want independence.

      What?

      Behave yirsel please! SNP is the only wan I’ll ever vote for,only wan I trust. The rest can go and biel thur heid, bunch o useless cretins with leaders no one can trust. NS does the flar wae them every week cos their useless with useless policies

      You seriously cannae be telling me there’s any other party or leader you would trust in an IScotland?

    78. heedtracker says:

      We need to stop preaching to each other
      about things we already “ALL AGREE ABOUT”,
      and we should be talking directly with
      the SNP. Making THEM blatantly aware of
      OUR WANTS.

      Huzahh!

      Or is it, Huzzah?!

      Why not join in the SNP? just go down to your local SNP shop and tell them you want to get involved, or blatantly make them aware of our wants.

      Those slackers will just love to hear that:D

    79. Phronesis says:

      Autonomy, mastery and purpose are the key to happiness.
      Any political party that seeks to degrade Scotland’s right to happiness speaks to a very weak and diminished agenda.

      Perhaps all MPs and MSPs should be asked if Scotland is a country or a region and have their answer noted as a matter of public record. That is the fundamental issue to determine if the UKOK political scene is really fit for purpose.Logically if Scotland is a country then it must be an equal partner to other countries and should be in command of its economy, harness the wealth of its natural resources, determine its international relations and its role in Europe, its human rights, employment law, welfare provision, whether it wants to host nuclear weapons etc. All decisions that affect Scotland should be viewed through the lens of an autonomous Scotland.

      If Scotland is neither a country nor an equal partner then the corollary must be true-that Scotland is an subordinate region that exists in a relationship of paternalism and entrapment with its locus of control at WM.
      What Scotland does the SNP believe in, what Scotland does each unionist party believe in- it’s not that complicated.

    80. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Lochside@9.09pm

      Yep. just reading a booklet on, ‘Britain’s Offshore Oil and Gas. Produced by the ‘Geological museum’ and, ‘United Kingdom Offshore Operators Assoc’. 1970s?

      Anyway, it is interesting to me, giving the technical side of things in laywoman’s terms. It mentions major N.Sea oilfields beginning 1970s, but they actually knew about the oil in Scottish waters well before that.

      A great article on WoS today, as usual, and will share, but my pals in NE Eng won’t like it, they say that their Labour party do not supporf renewal of Trident etc. Oh dear. Having said that, a follower of Labour, Scottish, told me last year that ‘you can’t be a socialist unless you are Labour’. Oh dear.
      Labour followers, both in Eng and in Scotland, cannot bare to hear a word said against, they are hanging onto hope, sadly.

      Great comments as well. Labour are an establishment, right of centre party, it’s time people came to terms with that. Their socialism was short lived, sadly.

      Makes you wonder how far they would go to stop Scotland from choosing to be an independent country.

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 13 August, 2017 at 7:31 pm:

      ” … The Irish don’t even recognise the geographic concept of the ‘British Isles’. We might try to do likewise, for until we do we will keep the chains of dependency.

      If the SNP, or any other Scottish independence supporting group or party, ever adopt that Irish policy, here is one 80 odd year old life long Scottish Independence supporter who will not be supporting such idiocy.

      I’d much rather emigrate to somewhere like Australia than be party to such idiocy.

      If Scotland’s independence hinges on non-cooperation with the other 8 countries of the British Isles I will not be party to it.

    82. Ghillie says:

      Hey there bowanarrow, wellcome =)

      Have you been to MOBOLISE ?

      On the SNP website.

      That is a good place to express your ideas on what can be done to promote Independence for Scotland. You can make a donation too.

      The SNP ARE our party of Independence.

      Silly bowanarrow 🙂

      And as to who I shall vote for once Scotland is Independent.

      Given how well our Country has been governed in the last 10 years in the face of the rotten Westminster rule, I will vote the SNP back into Government for as long as they exist as a party, a very long time I hope!

      Should they disband eventualy, I will probably still be able to vote for the MSP’s and MEP’s who have proven their abilities while with the SNP.

      And indeed, like everyone else, I will be looking at who’s policies and integrity I feel able to trust and follow.

      The joy will be that, once Independent, we will decide how life is to be here in Scotland and who is best suited to look after the interests of the People of Scotland = )

    83. Jock McDonnell says:

      Why can’t the BBC celebrate 70 years since Indian independence, but no, they focus on partition.
      Well nobody is calling for reunification so suck it up bbc.

    84. Still Positive says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 8.51

      Watched that too while reading posts on FB. Yes, it is scary stuff.

      Also worth a watch is the programme which came after, Partition: the Legacy of the Line. It is from a Scottish perspective as opposed to the BBC1 last Wednesday, and next, which is from an English perspective.

      I had a rant after Wednesday’s programme about the Brit’s splitting Indian states to form both West and East Pakistan (the latter now Bangladesh).

      It turns out from tonight’s programme, the person in charge of drawing the borders had never been to India and had just 5 weeks to decide where the borders would be.

      Reminds me a bit of the shambles that is Brexit.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      @bowanarrow
      You are a stirrer aren’t you, doesn’t make you a bad person!

      After Indy the SNP may or may not lose a lot of support, and may or may not be the party of Government. It would probably be best if they were, as none of the Unionist patties (like the mis-spelling so I’ll leave it) would have a clue to start with, how to govern an independent Scotland, with nobody at Westminster to make the big decisions for them, leaving them to make the small ones like what photo opportunities should their leaders seek, what devastating questions about the price of pink paint should they ask at FMQs.

      However, I digress, who would I vote for myself? Ah well, a main point of Indy would be that all parties could concentrate on the best way to run Scotland rather than pay Scot-geld to Westminster without anybody noticing. That strangely enough used to be done at the site of the old Scotland Yard before it was there, which is now the HQ of RUSI, a defence thinktank, but I digress again.

      I don’t go for left and right stuff myself, it’s more the idea that a state should make and help to make, and take its share of, enough money to run a country and provide for all in a totally social way. Kind of centre I guess, though I call myself a capitalist socialist. And right now the SNP come the closest to that, though they are a bit prudish when it comes to kiddy shoes. Hey, nobody’s perfect. Katy Clarke of Labour after all wanted to force boys to play with dolls, and girls with Tonka toys. Oh well. Perhaps she should have invented a Tonka doll and kept everybpody happy.

      But if in time we see a sensible Capitalist Socaialist Party (CSP) or a Prudential Progressive Party (PPP) they may well steal my vote.

    86. Meg merrilees says:

      Seems Alex’s show has gone down well at the Festival tonight.

      Even the BBC wrote favourably about it and he raised £1,000 for charity.

    87. crazycat says:

      @ Ghillie

      Why are folk taken in by the recent appearance of Corbyn ?

      If it hasn’t been linked to already, here is an assessment of that, courtesy of Phantom Power, who don’t just do Journeys to Yes:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN-udnaluJY

    88. stewartb says:

      ben madigan @9.13pm makes reference to the SDLP , the sister party in NI of the (British Nationalist) Labour Party.

      Many activists in British Labour in Scotland refer wth distaste to any form of political ‘nationalism’, and especially in the Scottish context. However, the SDLP offers an overt nationalism that appears to be ‘acceptable’ to Labour.

      The SDLP now refers to what it terms its ‘progressive nationalism’. (http://sdlp.ie/news/2016/sdlp-leaders-address-on-progressive-nationalism/)

      The SDLP’s stated vision for a ‘Better Ireland’ (see: http://sdlp.ie/about/our-vision/) could well have been written by the Yes Movement for its vision of a better Scotland. But of course the British Nationalists within Scottish Labour are blind to the inconsistency and hypocrisy of their views on Scotland’s civic (and progressive) nationalism.

    89. Les Wilson says:

      Got an email from Tommy Shepherd a few minutes ago, it has a link to join to help with contributing to helping to form the way forward for Indy. When I pressed the button which I assume was take me to a registration page.

      A message in red came up from BT protect, which warned me the page was unsafe, and I should leave it and go back. Of course I did go back, not wanting hacked. However I am curious if others are getting this or is it a BT invention to stop people concluding the call for shaping Indy?

      Perhaps it was real,and I was right to take heed, however it could also be a program to deter Indy supporters.
      So I am asking if others have had this with their ISP?
      If so, dark deeds are being done. I would like to know which it is,I run Norton on my computer and no intervention from them.

    90. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers,

      By all means visit Australia, I believe it is awesome! But please don’t emmigrate, we are all far too fond of you here =)

      Mind you, think of all that new history you could sink your teeth into! Still, we have ALOT of our lost history here in Scotland that we need to properly research and teach in our schools! But I digress.

      For me, and many others, the name ‘British’ now carries bad connotations.

      Maybe in time, once Scotland (and the rest I hope) is Independent and all of these isles on the edge of Europe are good neighbours, without one dominating and abusing, then I may be able to accept the current geographical name.

      AND to date, Ireland, Wales, The Isle of Man and The Channel Isles HAVE been good neighbours!

      Robert, where did you get the idea that Scotland’s Independence would be hinged on non-cooperation with the 8 isles that make up the currently named ‘British Isles’?

      The SNP and wider Independence movement have oft expressed the plan and all of our desire to be the best neighbours possible and to find a way to keep borders open and movement and trade easy.

      Not sure how cooperative Westminster will be come the day…but that will be their perogative and up to the people of England to sort them out.

      As for what is in a name. Alot actualy.

      I do appreciate your sharing your knowledge and I do not reject that knowledge.

      But I do not keep the name associated with abuse and pain. THAT would be idiocy. And emotionaly damaging.

      For now, I belong to the Bonny Isles, on the Edge of Europe and the Sea 🙂

    91. Still Positive says:

      Les Wilson @ 11.05

      I got the link from a pro-indy FB friend and filled it in no bother on Friday evening. My son also filled it in before I did but don’t know where he got the link.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 13 August, 2017 at 9:48 pm:
      “We need to stop preaching to each other
      about things we already “ALL AGREE ABOUT”,
      and we should be talking directly with
      the SNP. Making THEM blatantly aware of
      OUR WANTS.”

      Is it you who is deaf or me who is dumb, heedtracker?

      Either a person is a member of the SNP or a person is not a member of the SNP. If the person is a member then that person has as much say in the SNP as every other party member and that includes Nicola Sturgeon just as it includes a person who joind the party of recent week.

      If you are a member then when you take yourself down to a branch meeting you have every right to propose any ideas you may have. If you get your idea seconded than the branch must consider it.

      Now here’s the way it works. If no one opposes your motion then it is voted upon by the branch membership. If another person opposes your motion or raises an amendment and gets either seconded then the matter will be debated and voted upon.

      However, if you are just some gadgie who has wandered in off the street and are attempting to tell members what they should be doing expect to NOT get listened to.

      The thing you seem to be deaf to is that the SNP is not either the elected parliamentarians nor is it elected Councillors nor even List MSPs. It is every member of the party and those who achieve office, either as councillors or parliamentarians are, unlike the unionists, the servants of the membership and not, as is evident in every other party, where the members who are the servants and those elected to ant level of government their masters.

      In other words, when it comes to party policies, the members tell the executive and elected to office in government what the policy is. Mind you the members usually listen to the elected to office and executives but not by any means always.

    93. Meg merrilees says:

      Les Wilson

      I did that Tommy Sheppard questionnaire two nights ago and it was accessed fine through SKY and Yahoo.

      Just done it again right now and it connected through no bother.

    94. Ghillie says:

      Phronesis @ 9.51 pm

      Well said = )

      I would LOVE to see a list of MSPs and MPs and MEPs who see Scotland as a Country.

      And those who see Scotland as a region.

      Pin their colours to the mast.

    95. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers @ 11.28 pm

      (whispers) It wasn’t Heedtracker who said that!

      Heed was quoting a new contributer, bowanarrow @ 9.27 pm

      A few of us answered = )

    96. Fireproofjim says:

      Still Positive
      “The Brits split India” Not really true.
      Ghandi and Nehru and the Brits wanted to keep India together. Unfortunately Mohammed Jinna, the Moslem leader, insisted on a new Moslem state, against all the pleadings of the moderates. Pakistan being the result. (It means Land of the Pure). As usual, when religion gets its way, crazy people do crazy things in the name of their god and the resulting massacres were entirely due to religious differences, not the physical creation of a border.

    97. stonefree says:

      @ Robert Peffers 11:28 pm

      “If the person is a member then that person has as much say in the SNP as every other party member and that includes Nicola Sturgeon just as it includes a person who joind the party of recent week.

      If you are a member then when you take yourself down to a branch meeting you have every right to propose any ideas you may have. If you get your idea seconded than the branch must consider it.

      Now here’s the way it works. If no one opposes your motion then it is voted upon by the branch membership. If another person opposes your motion or raises an amendment and gets either seconded then the matter will be debated and voted upon.

      However, if you are just some gadgie who has wandered in off the street and are attempting to tell members what they should be doing expect to NOT get listened to.”

      With respect I must disagree with the above, it certainly was not my impression of SNP branch meetings nor was it that of others at the same meetings.

    98. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 22:33,

      Thanks for that link to the new vid from Phantom Power. Answers the likes of Cat Boyd very quietly and persuasively.

      Let’s be clear, anyone who uses “nationalist” as a term of deprecation in the Scottish context is no friend of independence.

      Corbyn is rather more emollient and careful, of course. But just like Tony Blair before him, he has to be all things to all men (and women) in order to have any hope of becoming PM. And as Alan Bisset points out, even then he and his party didn’t succeed in defeating a visibly-crocked Tory campaign.

    99. Alex Clark says:

      @Ghillie

      Don’t think bowanarrow is a new contributor, been a while though.

    100. @scotsnat says:

      Labour sh’te hawks

    101. Clootie says:

      …you either see Scotland as a nation or as a region. That defines your view of the arguement.
      Murray, Dugdale, Davidson, Rennie etc live in a region….I live in a country…Scotland.

    102. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      Yes, I like Alan Bissett. I hope he plays a major part in the forthcoming campaign.

    103. heedtracker says:

      More from planet toryboy, any sleepless in Scotland people?

      From the tory scumbags that begged the UK tax payer for their City bankster multi billion tax payer funded bail/hand out, and ofcourse the exact same toryboy scumbags that were first to welcome Orange Hitler in the US of A, to the world….

      Socialism for the rich, capitalism for everyone else.

      https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/08/j-p-floru-how-to-inoculate-your-children-against-socialism.html

    104. Alex Clark says:

      @heedtracker

      That is an amazing article that lets you see into the minds of how some right wing people really do see life.

      My favourite was from point number 4 because this does not just apply to children in their view but to the whole of society. Gobsmacked.

      How to instil financial responsibility and a work ethic into your children? It’s pretty easy. Never give your children anything for free. Reward them when they work. Encourage them to seek summer jobs. Give them a very small weekly allowance, but never pay for any toys, etc upon demand. The small weekly sum will teach them to save, and to postpone gratification.

      And what about sharing? Make sure that your child realises that he or she is free to share or not. By all means tell them it would be a good idea, and morally recommendable, but never force them. Never make them share as a matter of course. And never ever take your child’s private property away – except in the most extreme circumstances.

    105. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers is correct when talking about SNP procedures, everybody is entitled to propose ideas equally and I know that because one of mine was taken up
      Some of the newer members who came from the Labour party are used to a slightly different way of doing things but should remember the SNP are not the Labour party

      The SNP are a social democratic party, not socialists, there’s a difference
      In the SNP arguments are taken forward on their merits and support of party members, not just party numbers which in the Labour party leads to cronyism and well basically who’s got the biggest gang backing them and we know what that gets us (people like Dugdale and Kelly and Sarwar) mental irregularity

      True democracy isn’t easy there’s always resistance by the extremes whether left or right but we know that most folk lie somewhere in the middle and that’s where the SNP pitch their tent leaning on the left side but being aware a country can’t function without the other side too

      The SNP have one ideology only, self determination for our country but in between they must perform the function of management the best they can or the first part fails and everybody loses

      Even the moaners (which is sometimes me too) but that’s democracy

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim “In the SNP arguments are taken forward on their merits and support of party members

      Not quite. The first stage is branch members, and that’s the problem. It seems to be completely bottom up, with no laterals, no means of communication up the tree or to other branches. And no access even to the full branch membership who are total unknown strangers to you, just those who attend meetings. Which can be as low as 5%, including office bearers. And very cliquish perhaps.

      Some of the newer members who came from the Labour party

      This is also a thing, I’ve no idea of the percentages, but I’d guess by far the most came from NO political party but were, like me, non-aligned as far as party was concerned, never been a mamber of any party before. Vote X, and be done with it.

      So basically speaking if the 15 or 20 members who attend a meeting or meetings, aren’t interested even to hear an idea, but only if you want to “volunteer” to put stupid leaflets around doors rather than straight in the recycling bin, bye-bye idea.

      There is a policy forum of sorts though not particularly interactive, but no idea, suggestion, strategy or even social forum, or at least wasn’t when I looked. I did put that forward as an idea …

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      @@Dr Jim
      I’m more comfortable, as a mathematician and statistician of old, describing this in terms of data. The old-fashioned approach was to have a hierarchy, which is what the SNP has whether bottom-up which it has, or top-down which perhaps other parties have. The more modern approach is relational, where data is put together in tables, but can relate to other tables and be accessed across tables in any way you want, basically. I think communication within the SNP needs to be more relational to cope with 125,000 members, as opposed to the 25,500 it had before the Ref.

    108. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Jock McDonnell: “Why can’t the BBC celebrate 70 years since Indian Independence, but no, they focus on partition.”

      Maybe because Israel has recently signed a massive multi-billion contract to supply India with high tech weaponry, and the BBC doesn’t want to jinx the atmos. Every little helps.

    109. Alastair says:

      A 70th anniversary thought.
      The British Empire arrived in India one of the richest countries in the world hoovered up its wealth and left it one of the poorest and broken into India and Pakistan.
      70 years later GDPs in millions of dollars US and 2016 growth
      UK 2,218,886 and 1.6% growth
      India 2,263,523 and 7.1% growth
      Pakistan 283,660 and. 4.7% growth

    110. Alastair says:

      Correction/typo
      UK GDP 2,618,8

    111. Alastair says:

      Correction/typo
      UK GDP 2,618,886

    112. Brian Powell says:

      Clootie

      Most Scots do see themselves as a nation then go into some mind numbing panic, if they are asked to do anything about it, like protect their nationhood.

    113. Alastair says:

      Sorry folks correction the UK figure should be GDP 2,618,886

    114. louis.b.argyll says:

      ‘Common sense’ is what will eventually be used by voters to replace crooked-profit-driven democracy. It’s all around us.

      COMMONALITY SHOULD BE MORE POWERFUL, MORE EFFECTIVE, THAN OUR SINGLE VOTES.

    115. Footsoldier says:

      I think Robert Peffers must be talking about a model branch of the SNP.

      In our local branch the meetings are quite dull, uninspiring and members are drifting away big time from attending meetings and not turning out in anything like the same numbers for campaigns.

      The overall feeling for many is the leadership have forgotten us and we are invisible and here I’m talking about action not words and platitudes – plenty of that at conference.

      After the 2014 referendum we required a bigger hall for meetings now we are back to about 10 on a good night less in poor weather.

    116. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert Peffers
      The Irish refer to the Atlantic archipelago should they need to mention the ‘British Isles’, which I imagine isn’t very often. That does not, however, prevent reasonable relations with the British state. Cooperation with ‘neighbours’ is important but those ‘neighbours’ also include members of the EU with whom we have long historico-cultural associations.
      Unless a follower of Niall Ferguson’s exceptionalist, historical worldview the term British has imperialist and quite negative associations. The partitions of Ireland and India were products of British imperial machinations as was the ruthless exploitation of colonies. As far as we are concerned the term British symbolises our incorporation and subjection to a foreign culture. We should not be at ease with it.

    117. Footsoldier says:

      yesindyref2

      “So basically speaking if the 15 or 20 members who attend a meeting or meetings, aren’t interested even to hear an idea, but only if you want to “volunteer” to put stupid leaflets around doors rather than straight in the recycling bin, bye-bye idea.”

      Summed it up exactly as it is, absolutely spot on.

      I see Nicola is speaking out against Clarks’ shoes for calling girls shoes Dolly Babe. Now that is rather stupid of Clarks but this is the first thing I have heard our leader say since parliament went in to recess. I put this in the same category as tail docking puppies and further affirmation the road to independence is certainly not a straight one.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Alastair says:
      14 August, 2017 at 8:14 am
      A 70th anniversary thought.

      BBC r4 certainly full on rule Britannia mode today, in 45 UKOK mins, tune in for Harnessing the Empire’s Resources, Feeding the Hungry Empire.

      Partition was an English royal nutter drawing a line across the continent and then the whole Brit Empire flounced out, leaving behind power vacuums that triggered civil wars, much like Iraq and Syria today, and costing over a million civilian lives.

      Its a very English thing though, flouncing out, Brexit style. Better that than bullets whizzing past their Imperial ears maybe.

    119. Capella says:

      @ Footsoldier – you’ll have missed Nicola saying that there is no equivalence between Nazi hate speech and protesting against it in defence of diversity then.
      Possibly because the media don’t report that?

    120. Valerie says:

      @Alaistair

      I’ve just bought a book on the days of the last Viceroy of India, following watching Viceroys House.

      The book kicks off describing the sophistication of the Indian Mughals, the riches and culture, whilst England was wading around in the mud and the dark. The English were initially welcomed as visitors to the Indian court, and therein, India’s road to ruin was sown.

      The pattern of so many countries.

    121. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ghillie says: 13 August, 2017 at 11:15 pm:

      “By all means visit Australia, I believe it is awesome! But please don’t emmigrate, we are all far too fond of you here =)”

      In 1962 my mother & father were among the last of the £25 assisted immigrants to Australia. They had retired here in Scotland and gone to join my only sister and her family who had gone to Australia a couple of years earlier. Thus of my immediate close family only my first wife and my sons remained in Scotland.

      ” … For me, and many others, the name ‘British’ now carries bad connotations.”

      The truth is that you, and those many others, have allowed yourselves to be brainwashed by the Westminster Establishment.

      They want you to confusing Britain with the United Kingdom. The choice is yours, and yours alone. Only you can choose to continue being the slave of the United Kingdom brainwashing by doing exactly what they want you to do.

      I refuse to allow the Westminster Establishment to implant their lies in my brain. Quite simply the United Kingdom is British but it is not all of Britain.

      “… Maybe in time, once Scotland (and the rest I hope) is Independent and all of these isles on the edge of Europe are good neighbours, without one dominating and abusing, then I may be able to accept the current geographical name.”

      So that, “free”, choice you chose shows you are allowing the United Kingdom propaganda to influence you. How much more of their propaganda are you allowing them to force upon you? All it takes is for you to resist their lies for them to lose.

      “Robert, where did you get the idea that Scotland’s Independence would be hinged on non-cooperation with the 8 isles that make up the currently named ‘British Isles’?”

      I am replying to a specific commenter here on Wings as my comment indicates. I always post not only the commenter’s details and the time & date of the comment I am replying to.

      “The SNP and wider Independence movement have oft expressed the plan and all of our desire to be the best neighbours possible and to find a way to keep borders open and movement and trade easy.”

      Exactly so. Which is why I quoted the details of the commenter I replied to.

      “Not sure how cooperative Westminster will be come the day…but that will be their perogative and up to the people of England to sort them out.”

      Well no it will not. In the first place the Union known as The United Kingdom is a legal bipartite treaty between two kingdoms and NOT between the country of England. So there you are back under the influence of the Westminster Establishment’s brain washing again – THAT YOU FREELY CHOSE TO BELIEVE.

      When the country & Kingdom of Scotland has decided to withdraw from the Union it legally ends the United Kingdom and what the other partner in that union legally is will be the three country Kingdom of England. How they decide to deal with that is entirely the problem that the Kingdom of England has made for itself.

      Now perhaps you may see the folly of accepting the Westminster lies that the United Kingdom will continue and that it is the country of Scotland that is leaving the, “rest of the United Kingdom”, of Britain.

      The United Kingdom is a union of only two kingdoms – it is not a union of four countries.

      You have the choice to believe the truth or believe the lies planted in your head by Westminster propaganda. They have not done so by chance, Ghillie. It is all done for a reason by the Westminster Establishment. You do not need to let them get away with it.

    122. Jim says:

      Could wings do a piece on how the press are lying about the Lullaby Trust’s involvement with the Scottish baby box as they operate in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

      They imply that the Lullaby trust were commenting on the Scottish baby box when in fact the comments are taken from their website and refer to baby boxes in general asnd suggest making sure that they meet British safety standards.

      According to the Scottish Government, their boxes and have been awarded British Safety Standard accreditation so that is one cause for concern alleviated!

      Unionists will do anything for an SNP bad story, even at the expense of our children!

    123. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ghillie says: 13 August, 2017 at 11:33 pm:

      “I would LOVE to see a list of MSPs and MPs and MEPs who see Scotland as a Country.
      And those who see Scotland as a region.
      Pin their colours to the mast.”

      There is the proof of what the Westminster Establishment has been working so hard to make you believe, Ghillie.

      The truth being that while Scotland is both a single country and a single Kingdom, “England”, is a single country and is a three country Kingdom.

      So the Welsh are, and have been since 1284, a member country in the Kingdom of England along with the country of England.

      Ireland also became a country, along with Wales and England, in 1542 as the three country Kingdom of England.

      That was before the country & Kingdom of Ireland partitioned into the Republic and the Province of Northern Ireland in 1937.

      So there you go. The truth and the propaganda are two quite different matters and yet you choose to accept the lies.

    124. Robert Peffers says:

      @stonefree says: 13 August, 2017 at 11:58 pm:

      “With respect I must disagree with the above, it certainly was not my impression of SNP branch meetings nor was it that of others at the same meetings.”

      Exactly – “It was NOT your impression”, yet here you are telling me I am wrong and you are right. The whole point of my post was to point out THE RULES and not what your impression of how a particular branch is wrongly applying the rules.

      You can either be a coward and go away and do nothing about it or you can stay and force that branch to follow the rules.

      Remember that such as Alex Salmond was expelled from the party as being too far to the left. These left leaning members did not walk away and say, “It is my impression”. they returned and made the then party hierarchy accept the actual party rules.

      The old Electrical Trade Union was taken over by Communist Party members at one time who used just the same tactics at branch level to gain control of the branches and when they had enough branches the took over the union.

      Then, after quite a struggle, the members fought back and they ultimately expelled communist party members from office in the ETU. The ETU, became the EEPTU and today it is part of UNITE.

      You have a choice. Stand up for your rights or blame the Party for the actions of a certain branch. The SNP belongs to the membership and not to any particular faction. There is an old quoted saying – (the authorship is disputed) :-

      “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

      The point I’m making is that you cannot fail to make your point and put those in that branch in their proper place because the rules are there to force them to follow the rules. It necessary you can take along the rule book and read the rules out to them.

      I’ll put all that in perspective for you – Like an electorate gets the Government it deserves, a branch gets the branch officials it deserves. The choice is yours so don’t tell me I’m wrong just assert your rights.

    125. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert Peffers..Historically the term Britain referred to the former Roman province of Britannia which consisted of most of England and Wales south of Hadrians wall. For a short time it did include modern Scotland south of the Antonine wall. Most of Scotland was styled Caledonia.
      Cultural links with Britannia were real enough then but the term only gained true political currency under Cromwell who used it to designate his commonwealth of England plus Wales.
      Including Scotland is a relatively modern conceit and not one to our advantage. It suggests incorporation and annexation.
      The notion that high culture flowed from south to north has now been challenged by recent archaeological discoveries. The territory of modern Scotland produced more than painted Picts and hairy highlanders. That does not suit the Britannic narrative though.
      Britain etc should be left behind in the history books. It has no place in a modern, forward looking Scottish state.

    126. Ottomanboi says:

      @Valerie
      The history of the Indian subcontinent is the standard, imperialist sordid tale of divide, rule, exploit and negative mythmaking.
      The British East India company found a country rich and sophisticated beyond even their avaricious dreams.
      The Indians paid for their own subjection and bankrolled the Empire too. Jewel in the Crown it certainly was. All this done by a lesser and coarser people who “didn’t know how to wipe their own bottoms properly” according to one local observer.
      Checkout INGLORIOUS EMPIRE by Shashi Tharoor for the real story of British savagery.

    127. Robert says:

      Ok I can only think of one thing both Labour and Snp agree on fox hunting. Not sure if its classed as left or right or maybe just the right thing to do.

    128. Proud Cybernat says:

      Rev., are you trying to suggest here that politics are divisive?

      Surely no’!

    129. HandandShrimp says:

      Labour have over the last few years been all over the shop on tuition fees, prescriptions, hospital parking, and Trident.

      I could not put my hand on my heart and say I knew what their position on any of these on any given day or, depending on who is speaking, what individual politicians believe/advocate. They are a party for all seasons…or something else.

    130. Shinty says:

      Ottomanboi – thanks for that, I found it on youtube

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dVSQt_gn84, well worth a look.

      Think I’ll be purchasing his book.

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      @Footsoldier
      Hopefully our comments on this forum will have been passed on, as it seems we have no other effective means of communicating them.

      Criticism is constructive, if taken into consideration and sometimes acted on.

    132. colin alexander says:

      colin alexander said:

      Scotland voted NO. NO is a negative, it’s not a vote FOR anything, just a vote against.

      So, we had Project Fear …. so people would vote NO.

      galamcennalath says:
      13 August, 2017 at 8:57 pm

      I, for one, will never ever believe that. Many chose NO in the belief that it did stand for something i.e. the DevoSuperFederalMax that a long line of Unionists backed by the entire media were offering.

      ——————————-

      I don’t disagree that many people believed they were voting FOR something by voting No, I agree people who voted NO, believed they were voting FOR Devo-Max; that the choice had become independence v Devo-Max / Home Rule.

      But only NO was on the ballot paper. People couldn’t vote FOR Devo-Max or anything else – except independence.

      Aye, Project Fear led people to believe a NO vote was a vote for Devo-Max, Scotland’s guaranteed place in the EU and much more.

      But I’m talking facts, not people’s perception. No was No to independence. Nothing else. Nothing else was on the ballot paper, so was just empty words, not worth the price of a Daily Record.

    133. stonefree says:

      @ Robert Peffers 10:20 am

      Exactly – “It was NOT your impression”, yet here you are telling me I am wrong and you are right. The whole point of my post was to point out THE RULES and not what your impression of how a particular branch is wrongly applying the rules.
      You seem to have jumped onto the Impression bit

      I never said you were wrong, I have sat through 4 different branch meetings, as well as numerable local ones,Hells bells It’s like a rendition meeting,all full of their own crap,devoid of any moderately intelligent thought, any one who has anything interesting is very quickly shut down,
      They lack any passion,
      They have little interest in what the young folk think, and that is the future!!!
      They are like a collection of boring old farts hanging on the all knowing resident MP and MSP every word. one of whom has never worked a day in their life

      I merely pointed out very nicely( I might add) that not all branches are not very civilised and stick to the rules,
      If I say they are arseholes then rest assured they are, because my member ship has expired I asked a friend to attend,mainly to find out if their impression( there’s that word again) and it was worth rejoining, they concluded it was abysmal and (they) wouldn’t be rejoining

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      @stonefree
      Sadly there’ll be pretendy indy supporters calling us pretendy indy supporters for criticising anything to do with the SNP. Oh dear. Wings has been infiltrated by Billy Connolly!

    135. geeo says:

      Off topic and apologies but i had to pinch myself to see if this was written by Herald Scotland….

      An attack on Unionist trolls and those politicians who attach themselves to them….!!

      http://archive.is/muBlf

    136. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo
      Yes, someone mentioned last week that the SH was trying to our Brian Spanner for an article, seems that didn’t happen!

      SH is a weird one, doesn’t seem to know if it’s a sh*t or a heartburn.

    137. yesindyref2 says:

      “out” not “our” 🙁

    138. Colin Boyd says:

      Cat Boyd’s column in the National today about Charlotteville. A flat dense bannock of socialist history that wouldn’t be out of place in the New Left Review. Ultimately the spirit will drain out of the independence supporters who put their faith in Corbynism. It is, quite simply, not exciting any more. Exchanging 2014’s look for 2016’s.



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