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Wings Over Scotland

We’ve thought of a way

Posted on May 30, 2017 by

“It couldn’t be clearer than that” was Kezia Dugdale’s assertion tonight on the subject of whether a Labour UK government would block a second independence referendum, during her “Ask The Leader” interview with the BBC’s Glenn Campbell.

She’d insisted explicitly several times that a Jeremy Corbyn administration WOULD block a new indyref, even after being shown a video clip of Corbyn from earlier in the day saying he wouldn’t, and she repeatedly urged readers not to listen to the party’s leader and to instead go and look at the Labour manifesto.

So we did.

This is a link to the Scottish Labour manifesto and this is the UK one. Below is the entire text of the relevant section in each one (Scottish Labour on the left, UK Labour on the right.)

Neither mentions a block. (The word “block” doesn’t appear in the UK manifesto at all and only once in the Scottish one, in the phrase “block grant”.) Both say that Labour “opposes” a second referendum, that they don’t want one and that they don’t think one is necessary, but none of that is the same as saying they’ll block one.

Contrary to Dugdale’s insistence, it could be a LOT clearer than that. It could say “We will refuse a Section 30 order. We will categorically not grant Holyrood the right to hold a second referendum.” But it doesn’t say that, and Dugdale wouldn’t say that either.

(She was asked again later in the show and frantically dodged the question again.)

As far as we can tell, the actual position hasn’t changed since a Labour spokesman gave it to the press in March of this year in order to “clarify” some comments by Corbyn the previous day:

“Labour and Jeremy’s position is clear; we oppose a second referendum, and will do so in the proper place, the Scottish Parliament.

“The ‘absolutely fine’ comment referred to a referendum agreed by the Scottish Parliament. Jeremy and Labour do not want a second referendum but believe it would be wrong for Westminster to block it.

(Our emphases.) And Labour were true to their word on that. They DID oppose it in the Scottish Parliament, but they lost the vote, and their own stated position is that that now means a second referendum will go ahead should Labour form the next UK government. Nothing in the manifesto contradicts that March statement.

Which is nice, but someone should probably explain it to Kezia Dugdale. We advise using really short words and perhaps holding something shiny to keep her attention.

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  1. 31 05 17 00:56

    We’ve thought of a way | speymouth

129 to “We’ve thought of a way”

  1. Cactus says:

    Glasgow is excellent.


  2. donald anderson says:

    She is aff her heid.

  3. Thepnr says:

    The soups on and warming up nicely. Would be happy to share a cup with Kezia when she’s out on her arse next month.

  4. Black Douglas says:

    To quote Mhairi Black

    “you talk shit hen”

  5. Charlie says:

    Shiny’s gonna distract her from on message clear party line….

  6. Ian McCubbin says:

    I have tried a number of times on Twitter and she does not reply. So I guess she will just have to accept the will of Scottish people after hard brexit and that independence will happen.

  7. Smallaxe says:

    She’s like a monkey wi’ a mirror!
    Peace Always

  8. silver19 says:

    It’s all just a game to Labour (and the Tories & Libdems) they know full when they cannot block this forever they are just stalling for time and Brexit will just eventually tip the scales.

  9. Fishy says:

    “We haven’t talked enough about a 2nd referendum in this election so far…” Bat shit crazy that’s all I’m saying ?

  10. cynicalHighlander says:

    I would be questioning her on , How the hell did you ever get into University? Thicker than two short planks in a bubble.

  11. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    Lord God in Govan
    How much longer must we endure these lying fcuks?

    They are a pestilence: A plague on the democratic Scottish body politic; on our constitutional rights, liberties, and duties.

    A clear out of them all at the ballot box is a moral imperative writ clearly with no casuistical jooking and weaving opt out option left – you either vote to throw the fcuks out of the Scottish political arena for good, or you vote to be complicit in the Great British Neo Fascist Colonial Enterprise Mark 2:0.

    No fan dancing now around. No swiveling of the eyes or debating hips conceivable morally or logically at this stage of the gemme for you either with the BritNat imperialists or – like our Commonwealth brothers and sisters and Revolutionary War American cousins plus Irish confreres – agin them.

    Detest the term, but credit where credit is due, “simples”.

  12. Jim says:

    She can oppose all she likes as can anyone else but she cannot block a second referendum.

  13. Lobbey says:

    I can’t listen to her for more than 30 seconds, she really does use a hundred words to say fa

  14. Hamish100 says:

    DUGDALE prefers more austerity ie cuts in low pay, benefits, nuclear weapons and such like helped by her labour councillors hitching up to the tories rather than placing the Scottish people first. Not because we are the best but because we are equal.

    Their enduring disgrace.

    Scottish people come behind Westminster, the Labour party, the financiers, England, the bankers.

    They do not represent us. They don’t care that they don’t represent us. They are proxy’s of Davidson, Johnstone and May.

  15. Juan P says:


    Foodbank nurse Claire Austin fined by police for a breach of the peace.

    Edinburgh nurse who claimed she had to use foodbanks fined by cops after bust-up with neighbour

    I can’t find coverage of this on the bbc for some reason.

  16. dakk says:

    Stuart,your kinsman showed a modicum of probity in his handling of the slippery Dugdale there.Credit due and worth airing.

    Not sure what shiny object you allude to holding whilst schooling the mad arch Yoon.

    Your brand new ball pin HAMMER perhaps.

  17. yesindyref2 says:

    Yeah, big differernce between “opposes” and “block”, massive, enormous.

  18. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    Erratum: “…you either are with…”.


    Debate “rage”:)

  19. Returnofthemac says:

    Watching some of the small audience with Glen and Kez tonight thought the guy at the back with the T-shirt on did the business and went after Kez and the young girl with her mum both excellent.
    Felt a few in the audience were about to have a “YerDa” moment though, like the guy last night applauding Big Theresa.Thought they were going to jump up and applaud the Dug. Seriously, what is wrong with these people? Why can’t they see the disaster that is Labour?

  20. manandboy says:

    Kezia Dugdale must be getting a lot of money from the Unionist Alliance HQ for that kind of performance, the net effect of which is to waste everyone’s time while insulting them with that kind of behaviour.

    She must think she is being very clever in refusing to answer the question put to her. I can imagine her going home and saying to her parents with glee, ‘Did you see me, did you see me? Wasn’t I a clever girl?’, when all she did was make a complete fool of herself.

  21. chris kilby says:

    Hopeless, hapless, helpless and on June 9th, jobless.

  22. K1 says:

    Honestly we’re aw nearly needing tae get our blood pressure checked on the hauf hoor wi these two the night….not long now. Like many I’m so looking forward tae how exactly the Tories decide that the Scot parliament that has already agreed by democratic vote to hold a Scotref on the back of Brexit deal, isn’t going to go ahead with this after we fuck them in the GE. No matter what way they contort this, the SNP will win the GE in Scotland.

    As for Dugderail, ahm no longer able tae follow any of her word making noises and turn them intae coherent sentences…plot lost has the been. To that’s have all say I.

  23. Thepnr says:

    Another good day spent debunking the Unionists. Only 8 to go. This just might all end well for some and hopefully not for May.

    Get the vote out, show you ma and da, granny and granda Nicola’s speech from today. Will do a world of good and every little helps.

  24. TheStrach says:

    You just couldn’t make it up. Still on the way home from a good night’s phone canvassing in London for the SNP.

    Put the world to rights in the pub afterwards but unfortunately just missed the last train home.

    Oh well!

  25. Cactus says:

    @Open message, aura letter to ra unionists…

    FUCK IT!!!

    Vote SNP!!!


  26. Dr Jim says:

    I keep going back to the United Nations charter which clearly states every country has the right to self determination
    not even Theresa May in the final analysis is going to argue against that given that the UN has already warned the UK on human rights abuses the most recent chiding was in fact the Rape Clause which the UN called Inhumane

    And anyway the EU has already stated as soon as Scotland decides on Independence we’re welcome, they’re not exactly going to say stuff like that if they think it’s not going to happen

    So Unionists lie and talk mince about everything to confuse the bewildered but in the end up it’s happening whether they like it or not and all they can do is

    Bump their gums and oor wee boss lady knows it

    Talk to the hand Yoons

  27. Macart says:

    Oh good grief! 🙄

  28. geeo says:

    Is this Yougov’s friendly tory MP owner trying to scare the tory support into voting in bigger numbers ?

    Or a possible fore runner to possibly THE 2ND BIGGEST political comedic farce in 100 years !(lets face it, labour losing 40 seats will take some beating).

  29. Thepnr says:

    There is an absolute gulf in class between Kezia Dugdale, Ruth Harrison and Nicola Sturgeon.

    Whenever the first two appear on the telly the’re almost guaranteed to lose votes, whereas put Nicola on the telly and you can be sure her support will increase, she’s that good.

    No wonder the Tories May and Harrison are avoiding the public.

  30. Peter says:

    There’s something about these anti-referendum arguments I don’t understand… Maybe someone can clear that for me.

    You marry a fine young girl that you truly love, and that you believe that truly loves you. Some weeks later, you find that she has been cheating on you in every opportunity she had… Because you said she was the love of your life(time), that would last forever, you are not supposed to divorce? That huge infidelity is not a reason good enough to re-questioning your marriage?

    The Brexit and the many huge lies the tories have been telling everyone are not enough reasons for asking the people again about their future? If they really don’t wan’t the independence, won’t they vote against it once again? What are they afraid of???

  31. Cactus says:

    Vote for freedom.

    Of choice.

  32. Cactus says:


  33. Mary McCabe says:

    All the Unionist leaders repeat ad nauseum “nobody wants another referendum” “this is an unwanted referendum”. This assertion always goes unchallenged.

    The only recent opinion poll I’ve seen on this was a Panelbase one showing support for indyref2 at 51%.

    Why does nobody either in the audiences or amongst the presenters ever ask Kez Ruth or Willie for the weeniest bit of evidence that the Scottish electorate are against being consulted?

  34. defo says:

    Did somebody remember to call the traffic cops ?

    Might be wrong, but i think JC is enjoying tormenting this silly, silly little spawn of Blair.

  35. Cactus says:

    Fuck ra tories.

    Any colour will do..

    Glasgow is really excellent.

    Scotland’s even better…

    I love you.

  36. geeo says:

    If you had a “Nicola Sturgeon, peoples Party” running in this election in every uk seat, i reckon
    we could witness the biggest election victory since Monty Brewster and “none of the above”.

  37. Cactus says:

    I love you.



  38. Cactus says:

    I love Glasgow.

    Glasgow cool.



  39. Cactus says:

    Heading HOME.


    Vote X.

  40. yesindyref2 says:

    In the 70s and on I was pro nuclear deterrent because for me it saved a hundred or hundreds of millions of lives in conventional warfare. I’m still favourable to the idea, though not in favour or against the deterrent (pick the bones out of that one). For the UK the cost is a major factor though for changing to be against for some people.

    But it’s funny, the thing about the deterrent is it has to work, and has to have a reasonable chance of some getting through from both sides, and hence the Mutual Assured Destruction making actual use of it virtually impossible.

    Well, North Korea has upped the pace with its missile tests, in its attempt to be able to reach the US, and as a result the US has finally successfully tested an anti-ICBM missile. It could probably have done so years ago.

    Which will, before long, mean the end of the nuclear deterrent, apart from the general spread of radioactive material from the high altitude fallout of an interception. Which could of course go practically anywhere.

    Funny old world innit!

  41. Merkin Scot says:

    I came home after playing at a gig.
    Was tired but driving so sober.
    Thought I would check what’s what.
    Jeez-o. more of the crap that we get from The Deputy.
    Now, I am tired. Who will spare us this crud……..?

  42. Andy Anderson says:

    I watched Kez. Just like Ruthy she is totally naff in an interview when pressed. The Yoons have got themselves in a right pickle over independence.

    For info read the Wee Ginger Dugs latest post on their Yoons single issue Scottish campaign.

    JC is a Westminster boy through and through but he is respectful to Holyrood even if he personally does not agree. Kez on the other hand is trying to be tough on the issue as she see’s it today.

  43. Smallaxe says:

    “A Hard Rain’s A’ Gonna Fall”
    Bob Dylan: 1962! and yesindyref2: 2017!

    Still True. Peace Always

  44. Cactus says:

    People of Scotland.

    Come hither.

  45. Cactus says:

    Anna come ra gither.

    A hearty welcome to all ra new Wings posters…

    Ur SO cool.

  46. Cactus says:

    It’s a True Romance.


  47. Cactus says:

    “Keep on pushing pushin’..

    Push the Sky away!”

    See Nick Cave.

    He knows.




  48. AlbertaScot says:

    OK, but what about those high heel sneakers.

    Sensible Shoes Kez (like her mug shot in the DR) has gone downtown with a rockin’ new pair of black stilettos.

    Plus what looks like a trip to the fake and bake.

    One of those image make-over jobs I reckon.

    Deputy Dug re-imagined as Foxy Lady!!

    So how’s it working so far?

    Figured not.

  49. Graeme McAllan says:

    As unflappable as her Labia party (her words), I’ve heard she enjoys a wee bit of rug-munching 😉

  50. Fergus Green says:

    @Graham McAllan 4.35

    Please keep your homophobic comments away from this forum.

  51. theMadMurph says:


    Don’t use a shiny thing. She won’t be able to concentrate on the words, no matter who short!

  52. winifred mccartney says:

    Once you realise labour would prefer deals with tories to working with snp you know labour have lost the plot because their first priority is ‘the labour party’ not the people they are supposed to serve – this is self serving just like the con servatives who only represent their own interests and the interests of the rich. It is now painful and embarrassing listening to them.

  53. Fred says:

    @ B;ack Douglas, Mhairi actually said “Shite!” she tells it like it is!

  54. Iain says:

    The position of the labour party is the same as the dynasaurs before the asteroid struck.

  55. Truth says:

    I recall a few years ago (when Dug was for some inexplicable reason seen as having potential) on her many TV appearances, she’d make some idiotic statement and then implore viewers to “Google it” to check.

    The problem for her was, that anyone who bothered to do so would see it was a pile of shite. She was obviously relying on people not being bothered to do so. Good luck with that in a politically enlightened post 2014 electorate.

  56. Effijy says:

    Kez you could go on to the internet an discover that you are
    a puerile imbecile!

  57. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good Morning. Thank You for You links.
    Kettle’s on! Peace Always

  58. Macart says:


    That first link pretty much sums up yoon intransigence in a nutshell. They won’t accept a result which is not in their favour because they can’t.

    In their heart of hearts they’re not democrats and never have been. Democracy is ever shifting to suit the needs of the majority and the establishment and establishment politician needs a stability in their world beyond true democracy. They can’t operate in a world where the need and will of the many dictates their service.

    No, yer establishment politician, for all the lip service they pay to the word ‘democracy’, is actually an old fashioned autocrat. They give the public the illusion of freedom of choice whilst dictating the choices available. When those choices are broadened, or outwith their control? It’s toys oot the pram time.

    That is and always has been the nature of UK politics as it is practised. Control the choice for the population. Dictate the boundaries of their freedoms. Manipulate their perception of what defines them as this or that. Stick a label on something and decide for them who they are, whether they belong, whether they are worth something or not.

    To paraphrase a famous movie line ‘democracy is what they say it is’.

    The truth of the matter is they wouldn’t know democracy if it jumped up and bit them on the arse. It scares them shitless.

  59. Dr Jim says:

    The opposition moan about Scotland being a one party state which we all know it isn’t, but
    given that the opposition never have a constructive proposal on anything except the word NO to everything and their total plan is to thwart anything the SNP try to do in the hope of making them look bad we would be a lot better off with a one party state

    I’m not a big fan of the Greens but to be fair at least Patrick Harvie and his team come forward with plans and work with the SNP to try and be constructive, they just lack the numbers

    Today the Labour party are going to complain about the SNP not building enough houses, can you believe the audacity of Labour who built nothing but a massive debt monster of PFI schools that fell down and Scotland will be paying for them till hell freezes over, then still won’t own the damn things and then any money left over they returned to Westminster because they had no idea what to use it for

    The Tories have completely lost the plot and turned into the OO Rangers supporting unit in parliament, Proddies in Kafflicks out, these people are just sectarian nutters

    So i wish we did have a one party state or at least vote out all the Unionists that hold back our country and up the Green vote for a reasonable and constructive opposition
    Oh, and make a new law, anyone caught lying is out, no exceptions, that would get rid of the Unionists in a day

  60. Hamish100 says:

    Indyref 2

    Re nuclear weapons protecting lives. From latter stages of last century 79 million people have died. This doesn’t include the 100s of millions more through hunger and poverty.

    The manufacturers continue unabated. Just ask Trump and Saudia Arabia, Putin and Ukraine and Crimea, the Middle East, Timor and more to come with North Korea, India, Pakistan and China.
    Crazy world but Scotland should be pragmatic. Nuclear weapons are not needed in Scotland. Conventional defence forces have been sacrificed. Personally a US style coastguard may be a way forward for naval forces. More ships but smaller. As for land and air forces I’ll leave it to others to discuss. We should leave NATO – they don’t want us apparently. Then watch them ask us to join.

  61. Nana says:


    Democracy is fine with them so long as it’s working in their favour. I’m fairly sure the latest poll is to put the frighteners on the bigots and racists. I mean they can’t possibly allow Scotland to have the casting vote, can they?

    It’s the bare faced cheek of people like Davidson that really gets me, going on tv and basically saying “if we don’t like it, then it’s not happening”

    Surely folks must be asking themselves why they are so desperate to hold on to us, could it be our lovable attributes or something even more precious!!

  62. Brian Powell says:

    From that Irish Times article, ‘as a result of the principle of consent and the Good Friday Agreement’, in reality only the Good Friday agreement part counts. Seeing the reaction of Tories and Labour to the Holyrood majority for a Ref and Ind shows principles don’t come into it.

    If principles were involved Labour would be as opposed to NI dissolving the UK as they are to Scotland doing it. Pooling and sharing, caring for those who live in Birmingham and in Belfast was never mentioned in Labour speeches, but Scotland and NI would be doing the same thing.

    Maybe it would be worthwhile asking Corbyn and Dugdale if the would ‘block’ NI!

  63. bookie from hell says:

    cameron used gordon brown
    ruth uses kezia dugdale

    gordon brown advising kezia

    you couldn’t make it up

  64. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Get Russia to join NATO (and Dermot Desmond to buy Rangers). Fixed

  65. Richardinho says:

    Are there really people who are going to vote Labour in Scotland because they think they’ll block another referendum?

    I have to say, I find this hard to believe, but there must be else why would they make such a big deal of it?

  66. Nana says:

    @Brian Powell

    I believe Corbyn has already stated he is perfectly fine with Irish reunification.

    Can’t imagine why he is not in favour of the same for Scotland, can you?
    I’m guessing it could be all to do with the old ‘pooling’ as in pooling all of Scotland’s resources down south. London has to have it’s ‘fix’ every day Brian. Scotland’s resources are like cocaine and fine champagne for Westminster.

    Imagine the withdrawal symptoms if they had to go cold turkey. lol

  67. John Jones says:

    What has the indyref2 got to do with a UK general election?
    This is a Scottish issue decided by the Scottish parliament,election for this is not for a few years yet, when that will be the right time for this issue. I’m sick listening to the yoons banging on about it, after all look at the choice in this one, SNP, 2 dykes or a wee Willie! I for one don’t want a wee Willie. Seems there have been quite a few wee Willies involved in politics over the years.

  68. Brian Powel says:


    Agree, still it would be interesting to find out why J Corbyn thinks Scotland would suffer ‘turbo charged austerity’ but NI wouldn’t.

  69. Macart says:


    Ruth Davidson is purely and simply a dishonest hypocrite. Her soundbite changes with the weather, but at the end of the day its all about what suits Ruth Davidson. It is fundamentally why she is unfit to serve in public office.

    Selfishness personified.

    Something to really get across to people from now on. It doesn’t matter whether you vote YES or NO in any future referendum and it doesn’t matter what part of the current political spectrum you support.

    If you truly value democracy. If you value the public’s right to choose. If you value free will at all, then remove the likes of May and her mini me Davidson from your political life. I don’t believe for an instant that these people respect your human rights. They certainly don’t believe they serve the public in any way shape or form. They absolutely believe that we serve and owe the state. That what is good for the state is best for the population. The state and parliament is sovereign.

    Loosely, though I believe accurately, translated as ‘me, myself and I’.

    Democracy is about meeting the needs of the many, the majority view.

    noun: democracy- a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

    “a system of parliamentary democracy”
    synonyms: representative government, elective government, constitutional government, popular government;

    More self-government, government by the people, autonomy;
    republic, commonwealth

    You either believe in it, or you don’t.

    You either use it, or you lose it.

  70. admiral says:

    Macart says:

    31 May, 2017 at 8:14 am

    Worth reading.

    But, but, but – how can this be? Wee Kez assured us that SNP MPs only talk about independence at Westminster. Surely wee Kez can’t be wrong? I mean, she even gets reported on the BBC, the Scotsman and other media, doesn’t she?

  71. orri says:

    Whilst incredibly handy the transfer of the power to redraw the borders of the territory of the UK so that Scotland is no longer part of it is not absolutely necessary in order that Holyrood hold a referendum on whether such a redrawing should take place.

    The Plan B where Scotland withdraws from the Treaty of Union thereby ending the UK in a more definitive and more detrimental manner to the rUK than tacitly agreeing to it being a secession might persuade a rational government that granting that transfer of powers is the lesser of two evils.

    Section 30 has nothing to do with allowing a Referendum at all and withholding it indefinitely in the hopes support for independence falls is a risky business. All it does is ensure that there’s a reduced scope for legal challenge should the result be Yes and no chance of Westminster simply refusing to recognise that result.

  72. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says

    Good analysis of just how astonishingly incompetent TMay is.

    Clearly, she could do the proverbial brewery knees up, far less Brexit negotiations.

    Never in my lifetime have I witnessed such an absolutely awful political campaign.

    As far as I’m concerned, the jury is still out on whether the Tories are actually trying to lose this election!

  73. john says:

    The English will not let Scotland get Independence, they need them for storing their nuclear bombs, the oil, and their sense of themselves as being important on the world stage.

  74. Nana says:


    That’s exactly it, the selfish all about me and entitlement to something they feel is their right. They’ve worked really hard at bending over so much for their masters they rage at us for not allowing them their reward, to sit on the red benches and sook up the benefits. This is what it’s all about, not protecting the people just protecting themselves.

    Whenever I hear a young person say what is the point in voting, a red mist comes over me. Young women seem to be the worst for this attitude of ‘why bother’

    I think it’s high time our schools taught the value of democracy and the importance of voting.

  75. Capella says:

    Glen Campbell has risen in my estimation. Or has the BBC moved wholesale to supporting the Tories? It’s going to be a schadenfreude filled eight days.

    As the great philosopher, Dame Edna Everage used to say, “I’ve always had the ability to laugh at other people’s misfortunes”.

    I do feel sorry for Kezia though, and her parents. Soon this nightmare election will end and we can all get on with picking up the pieces, or “the day job” as Kezia would say.

  76. Nana says:

    For anyone who did not see Ponsonby interviewing Davidson last night

    here it is, if you can bear to watch

  77. gordoz says:

    Current Scotsman online poll-

    10,000 votes cast so far

    Cons 50%

    SNP 25%

    Labour 14%

    Do they know something we don’t ?

    Mibbes red & blue tories read the Scotsman – who knew ??

  78. sensibledave says:

    John Jones 8.36

    John, its 2017 for god’s sake! Dykes! Really?

    You ask what has indyref2 got to do with GE. The straight answer is rather obvious I would have thought i.e. it depends on whether you want Independence or not.

    I note that indyref2 appears to have been kicked into the long grass in the new manifesto?

  79. Macart says:

    @ admiral

    Kezia says a lot of… stuff, but is never knowingly accurate or consistent with any of it. 🙂

    @ Nana

    Well said.

  80. Chick McGregor says:

    Kez sez, Jez sez?

    At least we know what Tezz sez.

  81. gordoz says:


    In the same vein –

    Gullibledave on here again for god’s sake! really ?

  82. sensibledave says:


    You wrote “I believe Corbyn has already stated he is perfectly fine with Irish reunification.”

    …. I think most people are fine with Irish reunification if that is what the majority of folk in Northern Ireland want. As is the case with Scotland and Wales too. Democracy Rules.

  83. cearc says:

    For the young, no point non-voters.

    I recently looked up the numbers for a safe tory seat (Tun. Wells) for one.

    Off the top of my head it was roughly

    constituency 106,000
    registered to vote 80,000
    voted in last election less than 60,000

    So 40,000 odd didn’t vote, (after all it’s a safe tory seat, no point).

    tory vote 32,000.

    So safe seat is a self-fulfilling prophecy designed to stop people bothering to vote.

    Even Britain Elects’s excellent constituency maps showing the ‘didn’t vote part’ is only based on registered voters.

    Whilst parties concentrate on pinching a few votes off each other these easier votes are largely ignored.

    The huge discrepancy in all polls is the disproportionate low number of non-voters.

  84. meg merrilees says:

    From memory I think the readership of the Scotsman is under 200,000 – correct me if i’m wrong.

    Also, not many SNP read it!

  85. David P says:

    I’m confused.

    Ruth Davidson says that even a 50% vote for the SNP in the General Election will not constitute a mandate for a second independence referendum, despite the Scottish Parliament’s majority vote in favour.

    Does she argue that this extra artificial threshold should apply – uniquely – to a second independence referendum? Or to all elections?

    When she won the leadership of the Tories in 2011, she won 40.3% of the vote.

    Which begs the question: Does Ruth Davidson consider herself the legitimate leader of the Conservative Party in Scotland?

    Or perhaps more succinctly – does Ruth Davidson Believe in Democracy?

  86. Liz says:

    Re the Scotsman – a newspaper poll means nothing. It wasn’t that long ago that the Scotsman blocked loads of pro indy folk on Twitter.

  87. Lenny Hartley says:

    I was talking to an undecided neighbour the other night, I quite like Nicola Sturgeon she said, but her going on about An Independence referendum all the time puts me off she said. obviously she was put right and is now a probable for SNP. Her husband btw is an SNP member who is against Independence !!!! And he said he might vote Labour in this election. Ain’t people strange.

  88. Chick McGregor says:

    I remember some years ago that then, on average, 11 – 12% of the population relocate per year in the UK.

    It is probably more than that now, with an increased rental sector and greater career relocation requirements.

    Also, the individual registration introduced will impact the number of relocators re-registering.

  89. heedtracker says:

    “…. I think most people are fine with Irish reunification if that is what the majority of folk in Northern Ireland want. As is the case with Scotland and Wales too. Democracy Rules.”

    Most people means who sensible? you toryboys are such twits. You’re terrified of England only being in charge of England, England’s border ending at Carlisle. To be fair, no wonder but Brexit and Scottish devo are unstoppable now.

    England’s control over Scotland could have at least been retained if the Vow hadnt turned into a complete fraud almost instantly and maybe even if Leave nutters like Farage had lost.

  90. Breeks says:

    The most annoying thing about this Tory and Labour campaign is that it is entirely false; a distortion of objective reality.

    Westminster cannot prevent the SNP holding a referendum. It is mandated, it is approved by our parliament. It does not need the triple lock in the manifesto, but will get it regardless. And above all else, there is a credible belief that the public want a re-run of 2014. The Unionists are campaigning to stop something which they have neither power nor mandate to stop. It is futile. It is a literal waste of time.

    Second point, it isn’t the SNP they are seeking to obstruct, they are seeking to deny Scotland the means to express itself democratically. That doesn’t deny the SNP anything, it denies a process, it denies you and me a vote.

    If either Unionist party had a shred of honest integrity, they would get on with the day job; take it on the chin that they are having a referendum they don’t want, but get over it, and start to fight to win that referendum on merit.

    Think about this. If the Unionists got their way and prevented a referendum about an issue where polls suggest the we are perched upon 50% (or thereby) support for a constitutional change and careering towards a catastrophic exit from Europe, it would set a remarkably dangerous precedent where an issue politicians cannot resolve themselves is denied access to the publics casting opinion. That’s no just undemocratic, it’s a f*%#!ing outrage.

    It is ridiculous that Scotland returned 56 out of 59 Independence supporting MP’s to Westminster, holds a pro Independence majority in the Scottish Parliament, and stands tall above all other parties in vote share and first choice ballots in Council elections, and yet allegedly “doesn’t” have a mandate for an Independence referendum. Hells teeth, at one time that was the threshold for a UDI, but now it’s not even enough for a referendum?

    If you doubt how asinine the strategy is, in a parallel universe, just imagine Nicola Sturgeon trying to tell Theresa May she cannot have her General Election in Scotland because she already had one in 2015. Where is Theresa May’s mandate for a second General Election? Why doesn’t she respect the result of the last one?

    Kez Dugdale has likeable qualities, but shows remarkable resistance towards doing the right thing. She is the proverbial horse you can lead to water but cannot make it drink. Davidson’s condition is more advanced and full-on hydrophobic.

    Personally? I would love to see somebody landing a haymaker on the media’s chin; yes, we need Referendum after the significant event of the Brexit result, but we also have a mandate for a second referendum because the first was corrupted by wall to wall Unionist propaganda and systemic Unionist dishonesty.

    What’s next for Unionism? What’s their game plan for when they have to accept ScotRef is going to happen? I am already beginning to see these people as ghosts. If Scotland had won in 2014, we wouldn’t even have any Unionist parties. Their political position demanding that Scotland should forfeit its own sovereignty would be untenable and frustrated by Scot’s law. Some would argue it already is.

  91. Flower of Scotland says:

    Great video. Shared to my ?Slab friends and family. I even felt Glen Campbell’s frustration!

    But secretly it made me laugh! I cant believe that the Labour Party really think of her as a leader. I bet they’re completely frustrated with her too!

    Oh well Kezia maybe you could go on a long, long holiday very soon, but who will keep me amused? Well there’s always Wee Willie Rennie.

    What a bunch the Unionists are! Nicola Sturgeon is in a different league entirely, thank goodness.

  92. sensibledave says:

    heedtracker 10:24 am

    You wrote “most people means who sensible? you toryboys are such twits. You’re terrified of England only being in charge of England, England’s border ending at Carlisle. To be fair, no wonder but Brexit and Scottish devo are unstoppable now.

    England’s control over Scotland could have at least been retained if the Vow hadnt turned into a complete fraud almost instantly and maybe even if Leave nutters like Farage had lost.”

    Heedy, I am absolutely certain there is at least one area where I have infinitely more knowledge than you (and most others here on Wings) i.e. on the subject of being English and what the average English person thinks.

    Whilst I know you believe that the average ENglish person desparately wants to hang on to an empire of some sort so that we can oppress them and asset strip them, I can tell you with total confidence that that is not the case. Until you understand and believe that then you will have nothing of use to contribute.

    English folk have not stopped Scottish Independence, Scots have. You may well have an issue with Westminster, or the establishment, or the press or whatever – but that is not what you are writing.

    The vast majority of normal English Folk are democrats Heedy – unlike you it appears.

  93. gus1940 says:

    Re The Scotsman

    I was a faithful daily purchaser of the paper for 44 years until 8 years ago when I finally gave up in disgust at it having become a propaganda rag.

    I continued, however, to read and comment on the on-line version I (after all – one has to keep tabs on what he bad guys are up to).

    Unfortunately, after several warnings from their censorship Gestapo I was finally banned sine die for suggesting that a far better sort of reader comment could be found on The Herald.

    That statement was true in Sept. 2015 at the time of my defenstration but unfortunately The Herald has since gone down the same path to become yet another unionist propaganda rag.

    Recently the new editor of The Scotsman proclaimed that the paper was going to be politically neutral – I await that being put into practice amid the continued ravings of the
    swivel-eyed loons who fill the Comments Section of the rag.

  94. sensibledave says:

    BTW … any body heard an explanation of the words used to describe the SNP thoughts on an immigration policy in the Manifesto?

  95. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    31 May, 2017 at 11:07 am
    heedtracker 10:24 am

    Whether or not the English are democrats is not really relevant sensible.

    Last minute of Scots ref1, when Britnats thought they were about to democratically lose control of Scotland for good, in they piled with their historic The Vow shyste, devo-max, federal UK, EU style of fraud, or just giant shocking fraud.

    2.5 years later, fine English democrats like you pretend the Vow fraud never happened. Everything in the Scotland bill that came from the Vow shyste, was voted out, by your fine English democrats sensibledave, despite all the pleading, begging, tears, threats, promises.

    So you see you tory twit, anyone can waffle away about how democratic they are but ofcourse its meaningless in Scotland.

    So back to reality sensible,

    If you do get pumped June 8 democratic sensibledave, on what basis can a tory gov, red or blue, June 9 actually block Scotland’s upcoming indyref2?

    By pumped democratic sensiblesave, I mean Ruth D’s clown show only gets 10 Scottish seats, 12 maybe. Hardly a democratic mandate, from any English democratic angle of British nationalist nonsense.

    But ofcourse it will be, in this farce English democratic wonderland of democratic sensibledaves.

  96. sensibledave says:

    Heedy 11.33

    … your usual irrelevant, mis-targeted, “victim” spiel Heedy.

    Scots voted against Independence, not me.

    You wrote “If you do get pumped June 8 democratic sensibledave, on what basis can a tory gov, red or blue, June 9 actually block Scotland’s upcoming indyref2?”

    Based upon the SNP Manifesto, I don’t think anybody needs to block indyref2. I doesn’t appear that Ms Sturgeon has any plans to hold one in the foreseeable future Heedy. For reasons we can only guess at, things have moved from “spring of 2019” to after Brexit has been completed or something (very unclear).

  97. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    31 May, 2017 at 11:51 am
    Heedy 11.33

    Its ok sensible, we can all see you’re just another silly little tory troll.

  98. sensibledave says:


    Haha! So I am Troll now.

    I have asked two questions about the SNP Manifesto and suddenly I am a Troll. Is it because you don’t know the “party line” yet Heedy?

  99. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:

    Again, it’s alright sensible, ofcourse you’re a silly little tory troll.

    Unless you can come up with a democratic English explanation for the great 2014 The Vow fraud, on Scottish democracy sensible.

    But as usual, when tory twits like you get asked any questions, it all flops back to silly tory trolling.

  100. sensibledave says:

    Heedy 12.49

    I don’t know how many times I have to explain this to you Heedy, I am not Westminster, or an MP or an English MP or an MP representing any constituency at Westminster.

    You keep doing that thing where you talk about the “English” then, when challenged, you say you meant Westminster or the “establishment” (and then others excuse your stereotyping by arguing how much they love ordinary English folk and have no problem with them at all).

    Heedy, I have one vote in a General Election – where I vote to elect my local MP. Just like you (but I don’t have another vote for another parliament that excludes others from other nations and that only discusses issues to do with my area specifically). My cross has no magical powers. It has exactly the same weight as yours.

    Your insistence that somehow I broke a vow (I didnt), or that I am somehow responsible for Scotland still being part of the UK is, frankly, ridiculous.

    Unless you learn that Heedy, I fear you have a long road ahead of you. The only people that will determine whether there is an Independent SCotland or not – are the Scottish electorate. I would say that is the way it should be. Wouldn’t you?

    So please stop your projected blame at everyone else other than the Scots.

    If you had taken any notice of some of my comments above, you might think why the SNP seems to have “moved” on indyref2 timing. I might be wrong, but my interpretation of the very (deliberately?) unclear message on that subject is that Ms Sturgeon (not me, not Westminster, not the establishment) – appears to be dithering or at least giving herself more wriggle room now, compared to previous “demands” for a spring 19 referendum.

    Why is that Heedy? Did I do that? What is me that changed her mind? Or could it be that she now doesn’t think she has the majority support of Scots on the subject?

  101. K1 says:

    He speaks for all English ye see. Never occurs to him, it’s those living in England that vote the Tories in, and those MP’s representing those democratic English shat all over 256 amendments, ensuring that there was no ‘closest thing to home rule’, ‘most devolved parliament the world has ever seen’ sctick for Scotland. Aka the ‘Vow’ which all of England’s party leaders including the Tory PM at the time signed on a photoshopped olde England parchment like background splattered across the Daiky Record. Every single newspaper in Scotland with back to back BBC blaring out Darling, Brown and Milliband and Cameron panicked in the in the last week rushing up to Scotland as the polls showed Yes surging ahead promising Scots that Scotland ‘would lead the way’ in the U.K.

    He will forever cite ‘you voted No’ with no context as if that is our issue, it’s not, it is the lying, cheating and desperate scaremongering that won the No vote and that is the point. The ‘English’ did not stay out of it, Cameron stayed away from it publicly for a great deal of the campaign and only after the ‘three amigos’ came to Scotland to terrify the pensioners and blackmail with ‘more powers’ did the Yes vote slip back.

    Then came “the vow” to devolve more powers and preserve the Barnett funding formula if Scotland voted No.

    Prof Curtice says the interventions of “the three wise men heading north” didn’t really change people’s opinions of devolution, or their view on the referendum. It did yield an eight point rise in those who thought Scotland would get more more powers though, he says.’

    So spare us ‘your’ uniquely English take, it’s not reflective of what took place here and how that vote was manipulated by the establishment in England.

    You can keep trying to shoehorn ‘anti English’ slurs on to those on these threads all ye like, the anti Scots movement that took place and we are still subject to still emanates from your polity and it doesn’t stop with the Scots either. You do not speak for England, you speak for you and you are a Tory through and through, you vote these shysters in and therefore you are having a say in what happens in Scotland, the fact is because of the democratic deficit you and your fellow English democrats always dictate what happens in Scotland.

    You’re a nasty piece of work, snide and patronisingly condescending in equal measure, a Tory twat richt enough.

  102. K1 says:

    You’re chosen party just fucked the UK with its Brexit shystering and if you think for one moment Scotland won’t now decide its own path you’re a bigger twat than even Heed imagines. Ye see ye can’t hide behind the mask of ‘fairness’ and ‘it’s nothing to do with me’ or ‘I’m only interested in the Scotland issue because what the SNP are doing affects ‘my’ life in England’.

    Because you don’t ever offer ‘fairness’ in your outlook toward Scotland and refuse point blankly to see that we are subject to the whims of the Tory party and how it affects our life’s in Scotland. We don’t choose them, they get in because your numbers are greater, that is it. They fuck over the English as much as any other part of the UK that is defined as a region, but we’re not a region, we’re the signatories to the Treaty of Union and we rightfully should and will have a greater say in what happens to our nation, within this Union.

    But the merest hint of us having the fucking audacity to send our MP’s down to ‘your’ parliament affecting decisions in your country and you’ve never been off these threads for months.

    That’s the ‘snide’ in you, you’re no democrat, you do not speak for England. You deride the SNP with no knowledge of who they are except through the prism of your chosen prejudices fuelled by the rhetoric of your London centric newspapers and media.

    Your fear is palpable, but you won’t enquire deeply into your own psychology to unearth the hidden bigotry at the centre of your outlook, on the one hand you play the ‘I’m just another voter who doesn’t have an impact’ swiftly jettisoned on the back of your self righteous indignation ‘I can speak for the English people when I say blah blah blah’.

    You’re a chronic dissembler and an utter fake. Not unlike your current party Leader.

  103. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    31 May, 2017 at 2:51 pm
    Heedy 12.49

    I don’t know how many times I have to explain this to you Heedy, I am not Westminster, or an MP or an English MP or an MP representing any constituency at Westminster.”

    Who cares sensible?

    Why are you always absolutely mortified by any mention of “English” on WoS btl timelines sensibledave? Everyone knows, Scotland is British and Britain is English, its in the English dna, to say this is your island, vile seps will not take half our country etc.

    We did this last week too didn’t we sensible, you were toryboy apoplectic with fury that Trident could be labeled English WMD’s.

    How very dare little vile sep me even suggest such a thing!

    And yet sensibledave, where is England’s Trident nuke WMD heading back to, when Scotland becomes a nation state EU member, again?

    Norway maybe sensible? Maybe England could cut them a deal and dump England’s nuclear “deterrent” on some other country.

    So grow up you tory twit.

  104. Jack Murphy says:

    meg merrilees mentioned the Scotsman newspaper at 9:53 am this morning,quoting from memory readership as 200,000.

    For the closing six months of last year the Scotsman daily sales stood at approximately 20,000.

    Glad to be of help Meg. 🙂

  105. sensibledave says:

    K1 & Heedy

    Nope! You still haven’t got it.

    I have one vote, one cross – just like you.

    I didn’t have a vote in indyref1 – you did, together with the rest of the SCottish electorate (specifically not the English ELectorate).

    I will stop repeating myself in response to your ridiculous assertions when you stop making the ridiculous assertions – or when the Rev throws me off.

    I say again, when the majority of Scots say they want Independence then I am absolutely sure they will get it.

    I don’t know anyone, I repeat, anyone, that thinks differently or would want to stop Scottish Independence if that is what the SCots want. Same with Northern Ireland and Wales too.

    So, if your whole meme hangs on the proposition that you think the the average joe in the rest of the UK desperately wants to hang on to the Scots as some legacy of an ancient empire – to play with and oppress – then honestly, you have no clue – not an inkling!

    Its that bloody reverse Stockholm Syndrome thing again! You know, where the hostage stands and shouts at his “capteurs” (who aren’t there) demanding to be freed, whilst the door is wide open with a cab waiting!

  106. Andy-B says:

    I know that Dugdale is the gift that just keeps on giving, but with her extreme limited abilities I’m wondering why she hasn’t be replaced by another limited Labour unionist nodding dog, who appears more credible. If SLAB possesses such a person that is.

  107. K1 says:

    Not right now.

    Yes of course England doesn’t want to ‘hang on to Scotland’.

    We’ve just had our two unionist Labour and Tory branch leaders stating that even if SNP got 50% share of the vote they wouldn’t concede that we should have a referendum.

    I wonder who pays their wages. I wonder if there is a ‘separate’ Labour and Tory party in Scotland.

    What England decides Scotland gets.

    Why do you come on to the number one site in the UK specifically related to Scottish independence? Scottish politics and media analysis that tears apart the lies disseminated by the main stream media in Scotland specifically.

    What is your interest?

  108. sensibledave says:

    K1 4.30

    Bold as brass, you did it again, plain as day, for all to see!

    You wrote “Yes of course England doesn’t want to ‘hang on to Scotland’.”

    Do you see the word “England” there again K1?

    Who the F**k is “England” K1? Kezia? Ruth? May? Corbyn?

    How can you not see the ridiculous, constructed stereotyping of 60 odd million people?!?!?

    When someone in Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, Bath, London, Norwich, Exeter or Newcastle, votes in their General Election, they have one cross to make.

    Where they put their one cross, and why they put it where they do is up to them.

    However, I am reasonably confident that nowhere in their top 20 list of issues in their decision making – is the subject of Scottish Independence.

    So, please, try to absorb this and believe it (ask the Rev BTW) then you might be further on your way to achieving your political goals.

    “England” is not stopping you K1.

  109. heedtracker says:

    “Its that bloody reverse Stockholm Syndrome thing again! You know, where the hostage stands and shouts at his “capteurs” (who aren’t there) demanding to be freed, whilst the door is wide open with a cab waiting!”

    Oh boy, indyref 2 is blocked, and its blocked by er, your English PM.

    How do you match reality, with your righteous English outrage, at being called English and having an English UK gov blocking ref2 sensible?

    I know sensible, its not a block its just a little delay, until the time is right, when we English decided the time is right but it could be a while though, so its not a block, its just “now” is not the right time, so be quiet and let the English sort out Brexit and then, once its all sorted out, by the English, we’ll maybe then allow you to hold your indyref2, and ofcourse, we’ll be just as impartial, uninvolved and uninterested, like we were last time.

    You twit sensible.

  110. Auld Rock says:

    Kez, your P45 will be in the post on the 9th.

    Auld Rock

  111. K1 says:

    Look Dave, you can keep being the pedant or simply answer my question, okay?

    England aka Westminster.

    So spare us the aghast shit eh? It’s disingenuous at best and a completely ridiculous ‘tactic’ to undermine the person at worst.

    So answer my question?

    (Noted that you have, as ever, not responded to the salient aspects of mine or anyone’s posts regarding the merits of the argument related to the vow and specifically politicians who are representing their constituents in England, whose sole participation in the 256 amendments placed before the hoc by the SNP in relation to the Smith commission, was to prevent any further devolution aka ‘as close to home rule’ being passed onto Scotland.

    The parliament in England Dave, the country where you vote and millions of you get pretty much what you want when you do so. Spare me the ‘UK’ schtick, we are were we are, your representatives voted as a bloc to prevent further devolution of powers to Scotland. Telling me and others that people from various parts of England ‘don’t care’ what their politicians vote for or against is a rather sad indictment of your so called ‘English’ democracy and is actually revealing in and of itself, because you are admitting that you don’t care what your politicians do and insisting that the rest of your polity don’t give a toss either. So it’s not up to you, you say?

    I say it’s up to all of us to hold our representatives accountable, what is the point of us voting for any politician if it is not for them to represent us? Your argument is ludicrous, while you go off on a wee squirrel expedition about the use of the the words England and English, to avoid addressing the essence of your own logic, you inadvertently let slip that you don’t take any responsibility for the actions of those you vote for?

    We do Dave. We got shot of the Tories years ago and we’re in the middle of continuing to rid ourselves of the red Tories at all levels of governance, surely even you won’t be attempting to suggest there is resurgence of Tories in Scotland Dave? You follow this blog closely enough to know the reality on the ground of how the local elections just played out. Now all of this comes about because we are engaged with the process and we are voting to alter the landscape in Scotland, we have in essence fired our previous reps, that makes me personally responsible in a small way, perhaps, nonetheless I’m voting for policies and positions that align with my own outlook and values. Subsequently if my reps start behaving in ways that are detrimental to the wider community that I’m a part of, I want a say in whether they get to continue in that role.

    What you are saying is ‘it’s nothing to do with me’, but at the same time you’re also saying ‘I don’t want the snp affecting my life and decisions in ‘my country’, that is one of your reasons Dave, for being on this site, isn’t it? I know this because you and I have spoken at length on this subject.

    So you want to affect attitudes on this site, peopled by mostly pro independence, snp, left of centre attitudes? But we aren’t to affect attitudes in your country? You say ‘it’s nothing to do with me, Scotland voted no, you need to get that percentage figure raised (note we don’t need half of Scotland Dave, just 5 to 10 points should do it nicely), I’m just here to….’)

    What? What Dave? What are you here for?

  112. K1 says:

    Nice one channel 4’s Krishnan slams it right back to David Davis as he accuses media of ‘bringing politics into disrepute’, its worth a watch tae see Davis’s face…ooft!

  113. sensibledave says:

    Morning K1

    I am here to discuss politics K1. Simple as that.

    Because of who I am, where I live, my personal politics I rather “stick out” on Wings. Down here, I am Joe Soap, there is nothing remarkable about my views or politics – I am Mr average.

    On Wings however, it appears that I am an incarnation of the devil himself. Me, and my very ordinary neighbours, commit heinous crimes against Scotland and Scottish folk as we go about our lives it seems.

    Me and my neighbours vote in the UK General Election. That is the only Parliament we have and all of our expressions of our overall views on politics is expressed with one cross. And, as a statement of the bleeding obvious, the SNP do not field candidates in my area.

    My MP is elected by his constituents to serve them at Westminster. At the moment we have a Tory MP as an MP in Tory Government. For 13 years (I think) I lived in a “region” that voted “Tory” but got Labour. Such is democracy.

    In Glasgow, on June 8th, how many voters will have the problems of the Home Counties West at the front of their mind when they vote?

    Many here on Wings, you included, take personal affront and hold to blame, me and my neighbours apparently, for there not being an Independent Scotland.

    Remember, when me and my neighbours elected our MPs, those MPs went to Westminster and one of the things they voted for was to hold a referendum on the subject of SCottish Independence.

    My MP, voted in by hated Tory voters, voted for Scotland to have a referendum. The people of Scotland were asked something that I have never been asked i.e do you want to be in the UK or not.

    As a result of that referendum, the clear democratic message from the Scots to the rest of the UK is that they want to remain part of the UK – with all of its flaws, its history (some bad) its successes and it opportunities.

    Had the SCots voted to Leave then you would be out by now and no one in the rest of the UK would have stopped you.

    Now however, we have the re-writing of the recent history where, despite the MP that I voted for – voting to have a Scottish referendum – He, and I, are portrayed by you and others as not caring about Scots or about your democratic rights. Furthermore, we stand accused, regularly and often, of some cynical desire to manipulate the situation such that Scots are oppressed and exploited.

    Me, my neighbours, and my MP, did, and do, all of that as result of our single cross on a ballot paper?

    Meanwhile, down here, the cheapest one bedroom flat on the market in my town is £185,000. The cheapest one bedroom flat for rent is £800 per month. My town has few jobs to support its population. Many are up and out at 6.30 to pay £6000 per year for their season ticket for their job in London. I note that one can buy a one bedroom flat in Edinburgh city centre for £100k and rent for £475 per month.

    MR and Mrs average might move house 3 or 4 times in their life time as they move up or down the property ladder

    Now start to think about the “system”. In order to rent any flat, you need to have £800 per month post tax. Salaries in this area are not twice what they are in Edinburgh K1. People spend more of their salary on their property and have far less “disposable” income.

    As people get on, they want a bigger property. Each time they buy a bigger place, they get clobbered by Stamp Duty. To buy an average 3 bed Semi family home requires around £375,000. To buy that average 3 bed semi occupied by Mr and Mrs average Joe Soap requires £18,750 of Stamp Duty! To buy a similar 3 Bed semi in Edinburgh looks to be around £175k. The Stamp Duty to live in that typical 3 bed semi in Edinburgh is £3,500!

    Each time Mr and Mrs Joe Soap round here moves house they pay a huge tax to the exchequer. Where does that money come from? Out of their pockets!

    Is it “fair” that my 34 year old son, has to pay the government £19k to live in a 3 bed semi when a 34 year old in Edinburgh only has to pay £3.5K?

    Now what sort of issues do you think my very ordinary 34 year old son may be worried about in the GE. Scottish Independence? Or do you think he might be concerned about the economy, job, wages and his ability to provide home and hearth for his family.

    Because he earns £35k pa. You think he is “rich”! You think he should be paying more tax. You think he should be paying more to support others when he can’t even do right by his own family.

    You and Heedy appear to know none of this. Much easier for you to look at the value of the homes and bundle everyone up as rich southerners sipping champagne on their enormous salaries.

    So, when you, Heedy, Ms Sturgeon, etc, blather on about rich southern Tories (remember again 55% of voters in England voted right of centre at the last GE), that 55% is made up of lots of Mr and Mrs ordinary, Joe soap averages desperately trying to get on in the world – whilst they are dismissed as “Rich bastards” by the likes of you and Heedy.

    MS Sturgeon is all over the press and the Telly telling us all how right she is. How she knows what is best for me in Home Counties West. By her words and her policies, I can see she knows jack S**t about me and my neighbours – to her we are the “rich” that should be milked.

    Most galling of all, as she pops up on the TV or in the press with her pronouncements of what she thinks is good for me, I ask myself who is she in relation to any parliament that makes laws that affect me? She is absolutely nothing! She is not even up for election at Westminster – but she so wants to tell me what to do and think.

    I’m getting carried away here and you will probably never read this – so I will stop.

  114. K1 says:

    You live in a traditional Tory area Dave. You voted for these people to run the economy, the Tories fight for your polity in the south of England to maintain the high cost of living that you have just outlined. The state of the housing market is a direct consequence of Tory policies that allowed people with money to buy up the original social housing stock all over the UK. London and the south are over heated Dave compared to the rest of the UK. You cannot deny that. It wasn’t Nicola Sturgeon that ‘created’ that situation, Without massive investment in social affordable accommodation running in parallel it was always going to work out like this. With some parts of the UK seeing astronomical rises in house prices and others facing penury with those rents you describe in those areas, as people bought buy to let property as ‘investments’.

    You can’t compare the difference in house prices without also taking into account the difference in median salaries in differing parts of the UK Dave. So it’s exactly the same issues we all face when it comes to housing and living expenses. You cite Edinburgh property prices and average rents in your area but you don’t compare like for like if you don’t consider the difference in salaries in these areas too (oh yes you do say ‘salaries are not twice what they are in Edinburgh’ as if to dismiss the relevance of average salaries, there is a sizeable difference Dave, no matter how you attempt to disguise that). You say 19.5k compared to 3.4k, you say your son earns 35k but you don’t even attempt to speculate that that person in Edinburgh may be on average (in Scotland) circa 22.5k?

    It isn’t about ‘what I think is ‘rich’ Dave. It’s about fairness across the board. To tackle some of this our Scottish governent just recently stopped buy to let in Scotland. A massive house building project in underway to address these inequities. It certainly isn’t ‘fair’ that the rents, again consider the ‘average’ for differing parts of the UK, have gone through the roof for everyone in the UK. That is down to greed Dave, simple greed, call it a ‘portfolio’ and call it business, but when it comes to people’s homes, it should never have been turned into business.

    You’re over cooking your stereotyping of people in Scotland Dave, that ‘we’ think ‘rich bastards’, are you seriously suggesting we are economically illiterate, you’re the one who failed to see that the average salary difference in your comparison, needs to be taken into account when drawing the conclusions you reach about ‘fairness’. And you know what it’s precisely those differences that drive people to retire from England and come to live in Scotland, you do know we have half a million English people living in Scotland Dave, in a polity of just over 5 million, that is a fair chunk of our adult population. They have benefited from those hefty property prices down south, sold up and come to Scotland precisely to buy up our less expensive than England but top of the market in Scotland properties (in many cases), they are ‘rich’ in that sense Dave. It’s all very relative is it not?

    Ms Stugeon is presenting her manifesto Dave. Listen to yourself and the manner in which you describe what she is doing, as if that manifesto really ‘affects’ you in England?

    But also tell me what is Mrs May doing Dave? She just told you that your house and that of Mr and Mrs Joe Soap, is now classed as equity, if your savings don’t meet the threshold, your house value will be taken into account, in effect you will have to release the equity to pay for your own care. She just told you and Mr and Mrs Soap that your winter fuel payments have to be means tested. When you have just described how your son is struggling, tell me Dave did you intend to leave your property to your family? Do you hope you never get seriously ill?

    Why do you vote Tory, they are the very ones who have put money and greed at the heart of their ideology, they are not the ‘conservatives’ of old Dave, these are neoliberal ruthless bastards whose policies are aimed at dividing everyone into economic units and playing them off against each other, and that’s ecacrly what you are doing here. Does Mrs May ‘pop’up on the telly’ and tell you what’s good for you too Dave?

    Ms Sturgeon is the First Minister of Scotland, a signatory to the Treaty of Union which defines this United Kingdom, up until recess of parliament Ms Stugeon’s party and the people of Scotland sent 56 Member of Parliament to Westminster to represent the people of Scotland. She has every right to speak on issues affecting the UK. Without Scotland there is no UK.

    No one tells anyone ‘what to do or think’. You’re an adult, kindly refrain from the hyperbole and frothing like some little child who’s party has just ended.

    You vote for what you get Dave, Take responsibility, you fell for the Tories and the Tories are about to fuck you over. You align with that shower and come on here complaining to us as if we’re the cause and the problem, what a load of shite. You come across as a little Englander Dave.

    Mummy May will be along soon to stick a dummy tit in yer greetin’ mooth soothe over your overwrought anxiety soon…

  115. K1 says:

    Or maybe not so much…soothing, as shattering your entire world view:

    UK now the worst-performing advanced economy in the world after post-Brexit vote slump

    Canada became the last G7 nation to report figures on Wednesday, confirming the UK’s position at the bottom of the list

    Ben Chapman |Thursday 1 June 2017

    Just a year ago, prior to the Brexit vote, the UK economy was flying high, outgrowing Germany, Japan and the US

    The UK is now the worst-performing advanced economy in the world, with growth slumping to just 0.2 per cent in the first three months of the year.

    It means Britain is bottom of the G7 group of advanced economies, while Canada has surged to the top, with an expansion of 0.9 per cent in the period.

    After Canada became the last G7 nation to report figures on Wednesday, the UK’s position at the bottom of the list was confirmed.

    Before the Brexit vote, just under a year ago, the UK economy was flying high, outgrowing Germany, Japan and the US.

    Bank of England keeps interest rates on hold and cuts growth forecast
    Shop prices fall in May but food prices rise as inflation bites
    UK inflation increases unexpectedly to 2.7% in April

    Now Britain is languishing alongside Italy, whose economy also grew at 0.2 per cent in the first quarter of the year.

    Behind Canada at the top is Germany with 0.6 per cent growth, followed by Japan with 0.5 per cent, France on 0.4 per cent and the US at 0.3 per cent.

    The UK economy had initially held up better than expected in the months since last June’s Brexit vote, as consumer spending remained strong.

    However, signs of a deterioration have been gathering as Theresa May readies herself to begin divorce talks with fellow EU leaders.

    Inflation jumped unexpectedly to 2.7 per cent for the year in April, thanks to a dramatic slump in the pound which has made imports more expensive.

  116. sensibledave says:

    You wrote “You can’t compare the difference in house prices without also taking into account the difference in median salaries in differing parts of the UK Dave”

    Yes we can K1, we can do exactly that – and whilst there maybe an element of “London” weighting” in some salaries offered to those that work in London,, those are not material to the sort of differences I have highlighted. In terms of relativity of disposable income for a copper, nurse, fireman, etc in Edinburgh or where i live – the difference is huge.

    I suspect you may be thinking about this for the first time given the numbers you are making up.

    In relative terms, southerners are “penalised” hugely disproportionately to others because of the cost of housing. Add in the Stamp Duty issue I highlighted earlier and Mr & Mrs Average will probably pay £100k in Stamp Duty in their lifetime whist the Edinburgh resident will pay less than a quarter of that. That’s is a £75k contribution from a southerner that the Edinburgh resident doesnt.

    My son is not responsible for the last 100 years of history. He is trying to live his life now. He has had vote for 16 years – of which most of it was under a Labour Government – voted for in the majority in Scotland – not Home Counties West.

    Again K1 you are making stuff up.

    Many on here constantly question why the majority of the ENglish vote Tory. Well I have given you a flavour above. You haven’t a clue of the issues facing us down here. Even when I have explained it, you dismiss it as being untrue – because, I assume, you would have to completely reassess matters otherwise.

    Just go back to the Stamp Duty thing. Mr and Mrs Average down here pays 4 times as much Stamp Duty in their life time as the average Jock – tens of thousands of pounds out of earned, taxed income – from salaries that are little different to those in Edinburgh and for houses of similar quality. But still it is not enough.

    They don’t ask to be thanked – but neither do they deserve to be vilified or portrayed as something they are not by the likes of you and Heedy.

    WHat I ex

  117. K1 says:

    So ‘government policy differences’ is your argument here? Properties under 125k don’t have to pay stamp duty in England and Wales, properties under 145k don’t have to pay stamp duty in Scotland.

    So yes there is a difference in stamp duty amounts depending on house prices in different areas across the UK, what’s your point Dave, why aren’t you comparing these differences with other areas in England and Wales? These points are just as pertinent in an England only context, they are not some ‘measure’ of ‘unfairness’ or inequality between Scotland and England?

    Are you seriously suggesting that you are ‘hard done by’?

    Why not take up your complaints wi those you feel ‘penalised by’, which is who? Why are your properties so much more expensive Dave? None of what you have just stated explains why you vote Tory?

    Thanked for what? Being mugs wasting your hard earned on exorbitant houses and trying to keep up with the Jones’s?

    You want it both ways, you want to complain about punitive stamp duty and house prices and at the same time be thanked for buying overpriced property which obvioulsy attracts higher stamp duties as set by governent policy, which you then moan about and say people don’t understand ‘how hard we’ve got it’. On a Scottish independence website?

    Are you an actual bonefide fucking idiot?

    Dave, are you actually stating that the people where you live are subsidising the rest of the UK?

  118. K1 says:

    Are you jealous? Your part of the UK is the most expensive place to live and work Dave. Honest debate with no anti ‘Jock’ sentiment would reveal the truth of how you truly feel about anyone who isn’t from your part of the United Kigdom:

    Just go back to the Stamp Duty thing. Mr and Mrs Average down here ^in the south of England, pays 4 times as much Stamp Duty in their life time as the average Jock person living any other part of the United Kingdom (bar London)– tens of thousands of pounds out of earned, taxed income – from salaries that are little different to those in Edinburgh most other parts of the United Kingdom (bar London) and for houses of similar quality. But still it is not enough.

    Why are you focusing so pointedly on Scotland Dave?

  119. sensibledave says:


    You wrote “Why are you focusing so pointedly on Scotland Dave?”

    err, because we were discussing the differences between Scotland and “down south” on WIngs K1

    On the subject of honesty K1, point me to any comment by me in any thread where you believe I have said something “anti-Scots”.

    In exchange I will point you to a few hundred comments where WIngs commenters package up the “English”, The UKOK Bastard Tories, the rich southereners, the selfish southerners, the racist southerners, the anti-democratic southerners, etc, etc.

    As another example, there is no shame amongst Wingers packaging up the Leave voters again into “typical racists, little englander Tories” … despite the fact that most of the Tory Heartland shires voted Remain (including me). Often by a larger percentage than Scotland! It doesnt quite fit with the lazy stereotyping does it K1.

    This complete lack of knowledge and understanding manifests itself in the sort of stuff typically trotted out by the likes of you and Heedy.

    Of course I do have “complaints” about the UK government of whatever shade (unlike the amusing party line adherence of references to “Nicola” as most do here – you would think I had gone bonkers if I referred to “David”, “Gordon”, “Tony” or “Theresa”).

    I am not “a Tory” I happen to vote Tory most of the time – because they are the least worst.

    I don’t hate anyone, but that cannot be said of an awful lot of Wingers. The hate and venom is palpable sometimes K1.

  120. K1 says:

    I just did, you referred to us as ‘your average Jock’. (you also called me ‘nothing but a nasty wee nationalist’ over two years ago Dave, yer such a fucking liar so ye ur)

    Oh also noted you haven’t addressed the salient points regarding your assertion that the ‘average Jock’ in Edinburgh gets a better deal than your poor down trodden ‘southerners’ who are having to move so often from your over priced houses which, by dint of government policies attract much higher stamp duties and rightly so than those who live in lower valued property which obvioulsy attracts less stamp duty all over the rest of the UK?

    You know fine well this applies everywhere in the UK, but you won’t acknowledge that will ye Dave, that didn’t fit in with your assertion that this was a ‘fairness’ imbalance between Scotland and England, did it?

    You vote them in, you vote for their policies, you vote for those stamp duty bands, but that didn’t sit well did it Dave, now you’re distancing yourself and are now just a wee voter who happens to vote Tory?

    I haven’t ‘lazy’ ‘stereotyped’ ye Dave. I’ve been very thorough in my analytical assessment of your attitudes and can say with confidence that your outlook perfectly fits the term ‘little Englander’.

    ‘Call me Dave’ was all for this kinda relaxed interaction wi his voters and the wider public Dave, what’s wrong wi that? We still have face to face contact with our politicians in Scotland Dave, I’ve met Nicola, she’s very nice and when I called her over by her first name, she didn’t think I was ‘bonkers’.

    ‘The least worst’ at what? Answer that question?

    You are challenged on your attitudes and outlook and see ‘hate’ everywhere. It’s a strange argument though isn’t it?: You ‘see hate’ that you view as wrong, your reaction to this perceived hate is to react in kind?

    Closer to the reality of your exchanges with others on here is: you don’t actually ‘hear’ or comprehend where others are coming from. Your chosen form of response as you have just shown is to accuse others of ‘hate’ with no evidence, you have asserted this again as ‘hundreds’ and not one comment have you ever produced to validate this claim? You seek to ‘prove’ your theory of ‘hate’ by indulging in some of the most condescending patronising insulting guff thereby provoking a response to ‘your’ twisting of the meaning of posters comments who are articulating the reality of our political situation here in Scotland?

    You willfully seek to inflame the debate with insinuations and insults and then get bent out of shape when people ‘react’ to your tone and and tell you to butt out. You make it and take it personal/ly and then cry about it.

    There’s one glaring flaw in your own logic with regard to this ‘hate’ that you apparently see everywhere on Wings, why would you continue to come on to these threads Dave if it so awful for you? You plainly feel you are not welcome, would you keep turning up at a person’s house if they’d said ‘fuck off’?

    So if you won’t be a human being on these threads and you keep spouting the ludicrous assertions and your weird take on matters that you clearly don’t understand, then why don’t you just fuck off? If it’s so ‘hard’ for you to be heard or understood, or people disagree with you and that seems to be what you’re pissed off about, then just fuck off Dave. It’s simple isn’t it, who’d want to spend time around so many ‘hateful’ people?

    Why are you here? To lecture others? Well people don’t like being lectured by blowhards Dave. And they will tell you to fuck off. I really can’t see how you don’t get the message, it’s ‘fuck off, yer talking pish’ it’s that clear, isn’t it? So why persist Dave?

    Oh you are a Tory Dave. Don’t try to pretend to us that you’re not, you vote for them cause you like their policies and ideology.

    ‘The least worst’ You haven’t even enough courage or integrity tae admit your own beliefs. You are one dishonest guy. And are twisting in the wind if you think anyone on Wings doesn’t see you for who and what you are. A great big Tory twit.

  121. Dave A says:

    I’m looking forward to seeing Labour win at Westminster.

    Then seeing Kezia Dugdale’s face when Corbyn says she has to work with the SNP.

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