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Chris Cairns is on holiday

Posted on January 19, 2019 by

Yes, still. Yes, again. But don’t worry, we still have a cartoon joke for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Scottish Labour Party.

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    1. 19 01 19 11:56

      Chris Cairns is on holiday | speymouth

    931 to “Chris Cairns is on holiday”

    1. A C Bruce says:

      Ye Gods!

    2. Rob Outram says:

      Anyone else hear the Benny Hill theme tune in their heads?

    3. George Gordon says:

      I’m sure Paul Sweeney will have an explanation for this, possibly by conjuring up Schrodinger’s Cat or the Heisenberg Uncertainty relationship.

    4. George Ramsay says:

      Saw the Plank with Eric Sykes

    5. two faces of the same arse

    6. Tam the Bam. says:

      ” Chris Cairns has taken a holiday again.”

      To quote Brenda from Bristol:

      ” WOT…ANOTHER ONE?…!!!

    7. There has never been such a bunch of low life Brit Nats trying to destroy Scotland as this lot.
      The enemies of the People of Scotland, for money.
      The day is at hand. fuck them all.

    8. Calum McKay says:

      Richard Leonard wishes to transfer the toxicity and stupidity in politics in his own country to Scotland.

      Leonard may have lived in Scotland for a period (we know that because of his duplicitous actions in the the Glasgow women”s pay dispute), but he knows little.

      labour, a british institution as much as the tories are, for these parties, Scotland will always come a poor second,

    9. Bob Mack says:

      That’s the problem with anger,resentment and hate. It only consumes yourself, and that is what is happening with “Scottish” Labour.

      They sidetrack ,deviate and tie themselves up in lies and deception trying desperately to make the SNP look bad, Social media destroyed these tactics long ago, but still they blindly plough the same furrow hoping a seed of disharmony against the SNP will germinate, and put them back in favour.

      Self destruction is all they cultivate.

    10. Merkin Scot says:

      The Red Tory branch office in Scotland is rather like the The Wee Kirkcudbright Centipede with fewer brains.

    11. Winifred Mccartney says:

      Plus trying to take credit for the settlement of equal pay for Glasgow women even though they spent millions taking the women through court to avoid paying and of course labour Richard in the thick of it. He who needs to wear a red scarf to show he is labour because his actions are not socialist. He will use anyone to make a political point esp if they can say snp baaaad. Red Tories everyone of them.

    12. geeo says:

      “The danger for Scottish labour by joining the tories against Scottish people waiting to exercise their mandated right on september 18th, is a scenario where they could be out the scottish political picture for a decade or more”

      That was taken from my 1st post on Wings in 2014.

      Nearly 5 years later, and it looks like an underestimation of labours fate in Scottish politics.

      Not seen it yet, but i am hearing the katest YouGov poll for a GE shows the SNP at 47% of the vote and labour down to around 15%.

      Labour are FINISHED in Scotland, unless they very quickly embrace Independence.

    13. call me dave says:

      @Bob Mack

      I like your gardening theme there, but you might have added a few ‘labour tractors’to help them plough that long furrow along the road to nowhere.

      Bet Leonard is good at that game called ‘twister’ 🙂

    14. Marie Clark says:

      And that is exactly why SLAB are at 14 or 15 % in the polls. The sooner SLAB dies off, the better for the people of Scotland.

      Has Richard Leonard no self awareness, or is he really as thick as he appears. I know that he thinks we are, and have the memory span of a goldfish, ( apologies to goldfish). He’s in for a big surprise then.

      Anybody know how the civil war is going in the SNP, rent from top to bottom I hear. Aye they wish.

    15. Shug says:

      Labour tory and lib dems will combine to out manoeuvre the snp in any future election and the snp must be in a position to over come their combined vote or to split it
      Labour hard liners will have no problem voting tory

    16. Millsy says:

      Scottish labour ( sic ) – they are beyond saving !

    17. Muscleguy says:

      Must Do The Bain Principle. Must Do The Bain Principle. SNP Baaaaad. SNP Baaaaad. Even if agree SNP = Baaad. We are Red Tories. Repeat: We are the Red Tories.

    18. Street Andrew says:

      After the Blair and Brown years it’s a wonder there is anything left … ah!….

    19. findlay farquaharson says:

      every little helps. smash the branch office

    20. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Proof again, were it needed, that these people don’t posses the empathetic wherewithal to consider Scotland’s quite separate and unique requirements.

    21. Bobp says:

      And people in Scotland still vote for this shower ( shakes head).

    22. Old Pete says:

      Labour in Scotland are utter carp. They will never ever forgive the SNP for taking control of what they regarded as their fiefdom of central Scotland.
      Labour don’t care about Scotland and its people, time members of Scottish unions got to grips with representing their members in Scotland and supporting Scottish government and Independence not the Labour leadership in London.

    23. Breeks says:

      Labour’s like spiv con artist who was caught and sent to prison, but has been released too early, and is now trying desperately hard to persuade everybody it’s a reformed character, before promising everybody a box of sky hooks that’s obviously knock-off gear because the Conservative logo on the box has been scribbled out with a marker pen. They probably don’t even own the marker pen.

    24. Dr Jim says:

      Labour in Scotland could support Independence but we’ll never know because they’re not allowed to decide for themselves

      Because they’re NOT a Scottish party

      Labour in Scotland must ask permission for everything they say and do from whomever’s in charge of the party in England

      Because the Labour party in Scotland is an English party registered in England, based in England, with their head office in England

      Like BMW or Nissan or Toyota companies who are all in England but who take their instructions from their head offices in Germany and Japan these companies will do whatever is in the best interests of their parent company so why on earth do some people still think the Labour party in Scotland is any different

      The Labour party in Scotland is a satellite branch of the parent company in England

    25. defo says:

      Exemplary stuff from the Holiday Boy. Truly the slackers slacker.

      Slab? Meh! Typical.
      Dastardly Dickie, brought in for the closing down sale.

    26. Cyber-corroboree says:

      Could someone please explain the ‘Bain principle’.

    27. That Cairns has mere holidays than Thomas Cooks.

    28. DerekM says:

      Oh how the mighty have fallen.

      It has been quite extraordinary watching the Scottish people destroy this political party.

      And by the looks of things they are not finished with them yet lol

      I used to worry about the deflection from the blue tories but nah we can handle those clowns at the same time no problem 🙂

    29. TJenny says:

      I know Corbyn’s dead set on pushing for a GE but I can’t believe that Slab are embracing a GE up here when it’s looking likely that they’ll be down to one MP again. Although, as Corbyn’s dead set on delivering brexit, maybe bawheid Murray might be unseated this time round too – we can only hope.

    30. Shug says:

      This piece is a perfect view of the labour party but the bbc and the msm will always hide it.
      Dont expect call kaye to be airing these contradictions any time soon, in fact the bbc will actively hide the contradiction
      The bbc has already moved to war footing and will be taking direct instructions from london

    31. ronnie anderson says:

      Tis is ever thus British Instituted bodies Political Parties or Unions , have no interests in seeing a Scotland & its People prosper .

      Think on all those Union members , there will be no British Unions in a Independent Scotland

    32. TJenny says:

      Cyber-corroboree – the Bain principle as exhorted by Willie Bain, ex Slab MP, if they (the SNP) propose it, Labour will oppose it. Regardless of what the proposal is. Cutting of their nose to spite Scotland’s face.

    33. Fairliered says:

      Cyber-corroboree: Named after former SLAB MP Willie Bain. From Wikipedia- “In 2012, Bain stated that the Scottish Labour MPs have a convention of not supporting motions put down by the Scottish National Party, which became known as the “Bain Principle” among nationalists.[7]

      Bain, like most Labour MPs in Scotland, lost his seat in 2015 to the SNP, with Anne McLaughlin winning the seat.”

      We are now getting to the stage that, unless Labour get a grip of themselves, we will be heading for a no deal brexit, because of the Bain principle, and the SNP not wanting a no deal brexit.

    34. Cyber-corroboree says:

      Thanks TJenny, been annoying me for a few days now.

    35. Cubby says:

      Where has he gone golfing this time.

    36. galamcennalath says:

      Such situations come about because the primary objective of the Labour Party (Scottish branch) is to oppose the SNP at every opportunity even if that means siding with the Tories.

      As for the Labour Party (Head office) … does anyone actually be sure what their primary objective currently is? All I can think is they are trying to avoid taking any of the responsibility for Brexit in the hope it damages the Tories!

    37. Fairliered says:

      Depressing article on Scot Goes Pop about a suggestion of an indefinite postponement of an Indyref.

    38. Arbroath1320 says:

      Rob Outram says:
      19 January, 2019 at 11:19 am
      Anyone else hear the Benny Hill theme tune in their heads?

      George Ramsay says:
      19 January, 2019 at 11:23 am
      Saw the Plank with Eric Sykes

      Can I suggest The Plank with the Benny Hill theme tune playing in the background guys? 😀

      For our “younger viewers” 😉

    39. call me dave says:


      Aye ‘The Bain MP’. Like Cameron said… “I was somebody once”

      But maybe his fame never stretched as far as the antipodes
      Cyber-corroboree. 🙂

    40. TJenny says:

      call me dave – ha possibly not, ‘though if you laid all of Labour’s lies end to end they would definitely reach Oz. 🙂

    41. yesindyref2 says:

      Scottish Labour are inconsistent, and that’s caused by their semi-attachment to UK Labour contradicting their stance on the EU which fairly closely matches that of the SNP, Greens AND LibDems. They really need to stand on their own two feet, and do it with conviction and pride.

    42. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyways, OT – defence
      RP raised an interesting point which basically involves close-in defence of the UK, which may well be unsatisfactory even for the UK. A State’s prime duty apart from the welfare of its people, is defence of its home territory. The UK does that a lot at arms length, that wouldn’t be iScotland’s stance purely from the basis of ability to project enough distant force and chest-beating!

      Some witterings from me at the end of – this thread – I might work into some blog item:

    43. galamcennalath says:

      Fairliered says:

      Depressing article on Scot Goes Pop about a suggestion of an indefinite postponement of an Indyref.

      Jeez, sad stuff right enough.

      I think all of us on WoS (BritNat trolls aside) consider now-ish as the best opportunity we are likely to see for a long time AND believe support of Indy is about to move consistently above 50%.

      Now is not the moment to lose faith!

      I can only draw one conclusion and that is anyone pushing these views should be treated with suspicion.

    44. TJenny says:

      yesindyref2 – Slab can’t stand on their own two feet ’cause they’re skint and wouldn’t be able to stand in every seat in Scotland without bailouts from London – in other words they’re too wee, too poor and deffo too stupid. 🙂

    45. Ian Brotherhood says:

      A wee birdie told me Ian Murray, of UJ jaikit fame, will be a speaker at SIU Burns Dinner in Glasgow on Thursday. Dunno if it’s true…

    46. Cubby says:


      ” Labour are finished in Scotland, unless they very quickly embrace independence”

      Labour cannot and will not – they will not survive. Just like the dodo they cannot adapt and survive. It’s just not in their make up they will become extinct but will make as much trouble as possible for the SNP before fading away. I saw that Wolfson person on tv claiming all the credit for the SNP sorting out their disgraceful mess. Pretty pathetic people in a pathetic party who promised Scotland a lot over many many decades but delivered Britnat decay and robbery of our resources.

    47. Bob Mack says:

      Labour are like an octopus which will and does eat itself when stressed. They have many tentacles but no grip on anything. The Ouroboros was the same. (A snake eating it’s own tail).

    48. Arbroath1320 says:

      Ah’m hearing “rumours” 😉 that the current temporary branch office manager of Labour in Scotland has ordered some new paint to bright up their “under the stairway” wee branch office … BLUE paint! 😀

    49. geeo says:

      Shug @11.55

      Aye, like 2017 when all unionists campaigned on a single ticket manifesto of No to indyref2 and got utterly creamed again.

      SNP 35 seats

      All other parties combined 24 seats.

      11 seat SNP absolute majority.

      22 MORE seats than next best party. (Tories 13)

      28 MORE seats than Labour (7)

      31 MORE seats than libdems (4)

      Another interesting stat.

      Tories won 48.8% of all seats contested.

      SNP won 59.3% of all seats contested.

      We have a bigger electoral mandate than the Uk government, yet we are ignored, abused, browbeaten by that WM gov.

      That alone is a compelling reason for independence.

      Scotland has not voted to be ruled by a unionist party (at WM) since 2010, or a unionist party at Holyrood since 2003, and there are zero indications, going by latest polling, that those stats are going to change any time soon.

      The more unionists ‘pally up’ together, the more Scots voters reject them at the ballot box.

      2017 was peak unionism, perhaps even terminal unionism, since we are now on the brink of independence.

      Polls on GE voting intentions are largely irrelevant at this point, although it surely scares the unionist horses to see SNP support soaring again.

      Fun times ahead.

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, that’s their problem. But what they should look at is, if they stand on their own two feet rather than sloabbering over Corbyn, maybe they’d get more contributions from members in Scotland – and more members. Same goes for unions really, it needs Scottish unions not UK ones.

    51. Giving Goose says:

      SIU burns dinner?
      Don’t you mean SIU burns Scotland (to the ground)?

    52. ronnie anderson says:

      Ian Brotherhood thank fek we’ll be spared listening to his chuntering’s

    53. Arbroath1320 says:

      Look out peeps … Gollum, or is it May, anyone someone is back! 🙂

    54. Ghillie says:

      T Jenny @ 12.26 pm

      I do hope you are right that Edinburgh South can be freed from Ian Murray.

      A friend told me she voted for Murray (normally a Lib Dem I think) to keep the SNP out. She told she hated the SNP. Why? Because of the trams…

      You can imagine where the conservation went after that!

      However, her fear of Brexit appears to be even greater than of the trams.

      A GE would be very bad news for Slab. Does Jeremy care? He should!

      But we’ll just keep that wee secret to ourselves =)

    55. manandboy says:

      Since Labour in Scotland attached itself to the Tories and declared itself to be forever Unionist, it has become little more than a political tumour. The operation to remove it completely will take place upon Independence.
      As for Richard Leonard, he’s best ignored completely as an annoying irrelevance.

    56. Graeme says:

      We shouldn’t be surprised at this what we need to get our heads around is that as far as the Labour party in Scotland is concerned Scotland is supposed to serve them not the other way around.

      But the problem for them is Scotland isn’t playing ball anymore, The SNP has taken their place and they’re serving Scotland well and it has consumed them with so much resentment and bitterness, they’ve lost all touch with reality.

      The kindest thing would be for them die with what little dignity they have left but sadly they don’t even have a morsel of dignity left to die with

      RIP British Labour Party in Scotland

    57. TJenny says:

      Ghillie – she hates the SNP because of the trams??? If she lives in Ed Sth, how do the trams affect her and how did she not know that Lab, lib Dem + Greens were for the trams and it was only the SNP that voted against them in Edin CC but still SNP govt that had to bail the project out in the end? Don’t tell me, she gets all her news fromm msm, Ed Evening News + Scotsman? Hope you managed to get the truth through to her in te end.

    58. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      19 January, 2019 at 1:01 pm
      Fairliered says:

      Depressing article on Scot Goes Pop about a suggestion of an indefinite postponement of an Indyref.

      Jeez, sad stuff right enough….

      I said it yesterday and meant it. Revoke Article 50, defend in Law Scotland’s EU citizenship and constitutional sovereignty. Make those two pillars safe, then the SNP can deliberate for 20 years over their perfect Independence equation, because with Scotland solidly entrenched in Europe and tasting true prosperity for the first time in 300 years, I predict the Union will simply cease to matter and fade away, and probably within the year. Job done.

      If Scotland is sold out because our politicians still cannot make headway with the winds on Brexit filling their sails, then perhaps it’s our politicians who need to have a quiet word with themselves.

      I do see the danger. The SNP are creating dangerous circumstances for an IndyRef2 they might actually lose. For the love of god, if this is to be our high watermark, (god pray that it isn’t), then please, in the name of everything holy, please register solid hits over our EU Citizenship and Constitutional Sovereignty before all progressive momentum is dissipated by dithering politicos who remain blind to an open goal.

      Scotland has 69 days to unilaterally revoke Article 50. If the SNP won’t do it, then we need an improvised legal initiative that will, if not the Super 6 who have already won their case at the ECJ, then a similar initiative launched and pursued by Scottish Constitutional Champions who aren’t handicapped by any political constraints.

      If that means Joanna Cherry, Craig Murray, Ian Bell, the YES network stepping up to the plate, then so be it. It doesn’t matter who does it, it’s the simpler matter of just getting it done. If the SNP don’t want to forfeit their leadership roll in the struggle for Independence, then they know what to do.

      And before you hear the whines, “meh, but who else you gonna vote for”, I don’t have to vote for a Constitutional Lawyer to test the legitimacy of this impending act of subjugation.

      Truth be told, in my personal opinion, I’d be absolutely delighted if Alex Salmond stood forward to the roll.

    59. TJenny says:

      Ghillie – did you ask her how she feels about Vince Cable saying he’d prop up the Tories re Brexit?

    60. galamcennalath says:

      Cubby says:

      pathetic people in a pathetic party who promised Scotland a lot over many many decades but delivered Britnat decay and robbery of our resources

      That really is the perfect description of Labour. They dominated Scottish politics from the 50s to the 90s. What is there to show for it? They allowed our oil to be mismanaged and squandered. They did hee-haw to oppose Thatcher’s economic and social carnage. They allowed limited devolution which was intended to stifle rather than liberate.

      Labour has always been an alternative face of the BritNat Establishment created to give a veneer of democracy to the system.

    61. Ghillie says:

      My son just pointed out that Slab hate Jeremy Corbyn.


      Voting against their own constituents.

      Voting against their own interests.

      Add to that their bitter hatred of the SNP for pinching their thunder…

      And in their own insane way Slab are dead pleased with themselves.

      Best not to interrupt.

    62. PRJ says:

      Scotland deserves better governance than what is provided by Westminster main party’s. Independence will provided our own politicians who are answerable to the Scottish people and not to the masters at Westminster.

    63. manandboy says:

      Read this comment in the DM online. This is what brainwashing can achieve, courtesy of UK State Propaganda.

      “Oh believe me when I say that many of us are not only prepared for Brexit but we encourage it to happen. We’ve known for years how much anti-British spite runs through the EU. You lot can’t stand us and we know that, which is why we no longer felt any kinship with you guys. But we vote out and you all suddenly become aggrieved and hostile with us, almost as if you never wanted us to leave in the first place. We see that as you despising us but still wanting all that lush money from us every year. You can’t stand us but you’ll take our money quick enough. Well we’re sick of it, which I’d why we voted to get the hell out of Dodge.”

    64. Ghillie says:

      T Jenny @ 1.50 pm and 1.54 pm

      Don’t think we knew that about Vince supporting the Tory’s Brexit, at that stage.

      Where do Scottish Remainers who don’t yet vote SNP go now?

      If they are not paying attention, do they even know?

      Willie Rennie seems to be against Brexit, so will he and gang rebel?

      Will Scottish Libdem wannabe MPs also rebel?

      Or will they too fail their constituents?

      Bare in mind Edinburgh voted very strongly to remain in the EU.

      Maybe now, the good folk of Edinburgh South will finally work out who has their best interests at heart =)

    65. TJenny says:

      Ghillie – maybe the Greens, although a wasted vote in a GE.

    66. manandboy says:

      With 68 days to go before B-day, England will quickly become a political pressure-cooker on high heat.

      Here in Scotland, we need to keep the heid. We might be in the same Brexit kitchen, but we’re not on the same stove. Westminster will either sort this or will blow itself and the Union apart.

      Everything that needs to be done by the SG is being done.

      This is a time for self-control, then self-determination will follow.

    67. TJenny says:

      manandboy – on that DM piece if you replace Brexit wih indy, anti-Bitish spite with anti-Scottish spite in WM, you’re talking about us. Just as WM complain about being a vassal statae with no say in laws that are imposed, yrt they either cannot see it or willfully choose to ignore, with no sense of irony whatsoever. Hmph.

    68. ScottieDog says:

      That should be on a billboard

    69. TJenny says:

      ScottieDog if you’re referring to my post, it would defo have to be without the typos. 😉

    70. galamcennalath says:

      TJenny says:

      no sense of irony whatsoever

      4+ odd years ago I used to listen to Farage moaning about the EU. I felt that if you took what he said, then substituted Scotland for UK and also UK for EU …. it made a lot more sense!

      Any criticism anyone can make about the UK-EU relationship, we can make ten times over for the now hopelessly disfunctional Scotland-UK relationship! And the BritNats just never see it.

    71. dave Stewart says:

      Our biggest problem is overcoming the media tactic of ‘Control by Confusion’
      I’ve just witnessed similar unthinking bias.
      The woman won’t vote for Susan Aitken because she stopped Rangers opening a pub at Ibrox but let Celtic get permission to build a Hotel at Parkhead. Strange people out there, she wants HOLords scrapped and HOCommons to have their own accomodation for MPs to stop house switching for gain and expenses rip offs.
      Said SNP don’t participate in Lords as they don’t agree with it and an Independent Scotland would ask the people to decide what an upper house would look like and what our head of state would be.
      Her information comes from Ebc and sTV plus DR, showed her the latest little false item.
      College Lecturers to go on strike after getting a 12.5% rise rise. As Stu has trained us look into the article.
      There you find it is the solution to a historic problem from McKay’s time of making 42 Colleges Independent, resluting in 42 different terms and conditions for a lecturer i Scotland.
      The SNP government want to return to National Bargaining and common conditions, the College’s union are holding up this and not giving the higher paid lecturers a cost of living rise. The 12.5% rise is for the lower paid areas lecturers Three year pay deal, mis information.
      Maybe a lecturer can confirm what’s going on.
      The woman believes what is on the TV. Only thing for us is that the death rate will reduce the numbers of unthinking voters in her age group.
      As to Postal votes, witnessed in Dumbarton Care Home Slab collecting postal vote applications from people who didn’t fully understand what was being asked, that included my own mother, who wasn’t able to get past the nice young girl getting her a vote for John McFall, who also used to be someone.

    72. msean says:

      Labour,shoulder to shoulder with the Tories.

    73. boris says:

      “On 18th September 2014, for the first time in the long history of the world, a country committed national suicide in front of a live global audience. The voters of Scotland, a land with a thousand years provenance, and seven centuries a nation, declined to take responsibility for their own governance, and instead, entrusted it to a cabal of elitists from whom they can expect naught but sneering contempt.”

    74. TJenny says:

      dave Stewart – isn’t that tantamount to abuse of the elderly if not downright electoral fraud?

    75. Arthur Thomson says:

      My money is still on Article 50 being revoked.

      The Brits will be so welcomed back by the EU!! Neutered.


    76. Republicofscotland says:

      SLAB, a duplicitous bunch of f*ckwits, who couldn’t give a toss about Scots, just about sums them up.

    77. manandboy says:


      “Despite their political differences, May and Corbyn are remarkably similar in their grotesque rigidity, and their slightly tetchy muleishness born of a mediocrity of character, intellect and judgment. Indeed the most notable thing about the closing speeches in the ‘no confidence’ debate was that they provided devastating critiques of both party leaders. Certainly neither seems remotely prepared or competent to create and lead the kind of temporary or semi-permanent cross-party parliamentary alliance that looks like the only route out of this mess.”

    78. Ghillie says:

      Manandboy @ 2.40 pm

      Well said =)

      Aye Jenny, the Greens are an option, but SNP would definitely be my choice 🙂

    79. TJenny says:

      ScottieDog – in fact the two statements side by side, the gammony brexity one then our one with Scotland/Westminster substituted – one for the wonderful Zarkwan mibbe.

    80. Macart says:

      Standing up for solidarity with… the Tories. Who knew?

    81. Iain mhor says:

      @boris 3:21pm

      Thanks, I hadn’t seen that quote from Christian Wright before – Savage!
      Harsh but fair and a keeper.

    82. twathater says:

      It’s not just the betrayal of Scotland and it’s people’s that I DESPISE liebour in Scotland for , when I see the shower of slavering imbeciles getting up to speak like Kelly or Rowley , I feel total embarrassment that these intellectual dwarfs are portrayed worldwide as the best example of Scotland’s politicians , they are absolutely cringeworthy, same with rennie , Jamie green , Wells and others too numerous to mention , that is what happens when the gene pool for your candidates lowers to selecting the least repugnant of the available pond life

      Scotland and Scottish people deserve better representation than these dregs of brutish nationalism who can’t even think for themselves without instructions from their imperial maisters, I so look forward to the day when we can put these imbeciles back in their cages and elect real politicians who VALUE Scotland and it’s people

    83. Gary45% says:

      All I can say is “Thank goodness for the internet ! “.
      Red Tory got away with total ignorance/incompetence for decades, and would still get away with it but for the ability to check information easily on the internet.

    84. geeo says:

      @Arthur Thomson.

      If Article 50 is revoked, it is revoked unilaterally, and with ZERO penalty .

      In other words, the uk would stay in under the exact same terms they have now.

      So, not neutered.

      No credibility, but not neutered.

    85. Scott says:

      Deal struck in Glasgow council equal pay dispute

      I wonder why BBC don’t have comments on this and we will never see the above motion reported in MSM,can we contact Brewer and see if he could ask lab on his program tomorrow.

    86. dave Stewart says:


      Agree that it’s amoral but it was done with the agreement of the manager of the care home.
      I only witnessed the collection by being in to visit.
      All done in the ‘Best Possible Taste’
      Just making sure that the person got to use their vote.
      My mother was still able to understand what was happening but there were others there who were beyond a condition where they had any idea what was being asked.
      My mother declined the request with no input from me, she understood her life was coming to it’s end and didn’t have the will to vote.
      She and my father were Slab to the core and brought us up to vote, too many people had fought to get them the vote, remember mother was born when women were second class working people and father didn’t get the vote as he didn’t own property.
      I am all for Scotland deciding for itself what happens in our future. Just feel like others that we play by our morals against red and blue tories who use the rules to their advantage. Have a look at the Dunoon Files on Referendum postal vote turnout.

    87. Bobp says:

      Boris 3.21 PM. I’ll be waiting to see how many accuse you of being a racist for posting that link, on that referendum analysis done by Edinburgh university in 2014?.

    88. jfngw says:

      I was working in the lab, late one night
      When my eyes beheld an eerie sight
      For my monster from his slab, began to rise
      And suddenly to my surprise

      Brown’s being wheeled out again.

    89. jezza says:

      The 2007 Scottish elections were the start of the downfall of the Labour Party in Scotland.

      And they have been going downhill ever since.

      Scotland finally woke to the betrayal and con of British Unionism.

    90. Colin Alexander says:

      If or when there’s an election we can be sure of this:

      Labour supporters will vote Tory just to keep the SNP oot.
      Conservative supporters will vote Labour just to keep the SNP oot.
      LibDem supporters will vote either to keep the SNP oot.

      For them it’s about preserving the Union and stopping independence. Any future election in Scotland will be about one policy only:

      For the SNP to bury their heids in the sand about this is foolish; they tried it before and shed votes and seats like snaw aff a dyke.

      The SNP must lead the fight for independence. Campaign for it. Set the agenda instead of hiding from the agenda.

      Come out fighting to win Scotland’s freedom from servitude, instead of serving the Union as the Scottish (Colonial) Government.

    91. galamcennalath says:

      A bill is going before WM on Monday which would force May to seek an extension to A50 if no Withdrawal Agreement is passed by the 7th March. The intention, I assume, is allow an EURef2 to be held.

      However, this reduces the choice before WM to accept May’s ‘deal’ or allow an extension and second referendum. Sounds fine, that is unless you are a far right über Brexiteer who wants exit on March and ideally deal-less! So, what would they do then? My guess is they will support May’s ‘deal’ because that might be the only opportunity for any form of Brexit. It might pass.

      Truth is, I feel OK with that because it’s a blindfold Brexit with two year transition and robbery of Scottish devolved powers. That is an ideal background for IndyRef2 IMO.

    92. velofello says:

      And so I’ll get up onto my hobby horse again – the D’Hondt voting system.

      Consider, you are a socialist minded person, you endorse SNP policies but with 120,000 members the prospect of a political career,of getting selected as a candidate for the SNP, is a bit of a task whereas London funded Slab with few members provides a much easier route to being selected as an MSP candidate. And the joke is you don’t have to win your election, D’Hondt delivers your seat via the List. Same scenario with the dark money Tories.

      London funds and sustains the Tories and Slab in Scotland. D’Hondt delivers their List seats.

    93. Proud Cybernat says:

      “A bill is going before WM on Monday which would force May to seek an extension to A50 if no Withdrawal Agreement is passed by the 7th March.”

      Not sure that the EU27 will agree to this unless there came with it a solid decision for EU-Ref2 or GE and a date for it. Can’t see TMay agreeing to EU-Ref2 or GE.

    94. mumsyhugs says:

      As comedian Frank Carson used to say – “It’s the way I tell ’em!” 🙂

    95. wull2 says:

      EU. If you revoke A50 and welcome back the UK, what if Scotland votes for independence but does not want to join a union with England.

      EU. Just welcome back the people who did not want to leave in the first place.

    96. Scottish Steve says:

      What is the point in you, Scottish Labour? Tory enablers.

    97. ronnie anderson says:

      vellofello sit doon an take ah rest ah’ll push the hobby horse fur U

    98. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      Not sure that the EU27 will agree to this unless there came with it a solid decision for EU-Ref2 or GE and a date for it. Can’t see TMay agreeing to EU-Ref2 or GE.

      My understanding is the EU would not agree to an extension to allow the Tories to carry on their bun fight. However, they would agree if something changed, such as a planned EURef2 (as you say).

      I also think the plan is to wrestle decision making away from May and give it to MPs.

      I’m not up on how Bills get forced into the system, but they did manage to get Monday’s on the agenda. It might pass. It may be possible to get other Bills in front of MPs for say an EURef2.

      My main point was, that it may not get to any of this. The threat might be enough to get all those who want a Brexit to opt for May’s ‘deal’ rather than risk cancellation altogether.

    99. Essexexile says:

      Yes, it’s a rather unpalatable and unholy alliance between the no deal brexiteers and the Yes movement at the moment as they can obviously aid each other’s cause.
      As an indy supporting remainer living in England this presents a real dilemma. Hope Wingers can at least understand this without necessarily sympathising.
      While an indy Scotland would be a wonderful thing, it will likely be the cause, or as the result of financial hardships for me and mine.
      If it has to come to that, I hope Scotland gets out first.
      But, would I rather Brexit is binned (or heavily watered down) and indy takes its chances without such strong wind in it’s sails?

    100. Hamish100 says:

      Bobp says:
      19 January, 2019 at 4:13 pm
      Boris 3.21 PM. I’ll be waiting to see how many accuse you of being a racist for posting that link, on that referendum analysis done by Edinburgh university in 2014?.

      None so far. What’s your point?

    101. Bobp says:

      Just asking hamish, or is that not allowed?

    102. Scott says:

      No fan of Dianne Abbott or Lab but QT BBC really is going to the pits F Bruce worse than Dimbles

    103. Sarah says:

      O/T @Ronnie Anderson: how did your complaint to OSCR about the Integrity Initiative go?


      On the previous thread I wondered why English parties, their funds and their activists, and their government, were allowed to play any part in the 2014 referendum.

      Is it not the case that seeking self-government is an internal matter? And that Scottish elections, as any other country does, should be for domestic parties only?

      If Putin comments on other countries’ elections he is criticised. So why should we allow Westminster politicians and parties to interfere in ours?

      Is there any strength to this line of argument? Just imagine if Nicola banned funding and campaigning by the English parties!!

    104. starlaw says:

      Talking to an old friend today who lives in sheltered accommodation in Edinburgh. She told me that most of the women think that Nicola Sturgeon is being stitched up. Most of these women do not support SNP. Accusations by the media may be doing more good than harm.

    105. Tom Busza says:



      Damn. And we were all being assured that there were approx. 800,000 English born voters in Scotland? 😉

      “There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken” (quote from Caltonjack link). Actual census 2011 People declared as born in England = 459,486 (approx. 422,000 eligible voters).

      I do not want to go back to whether to allow non-Scots to vote in an Indy Ref. or not. I have stated my own personnal case before. I am of Polish/Italian parents, born in Italy, lived in England since age 6 months (no choice in the matter in 1949), Italian as mother language (couldn’t speak English when I started school at 5 y.o.). Always voted since I could.

      Came to Scotland (2004)to give younger daughter away at her wedding to a Scot, and stayed. Scottish born grand-daughter now.

      Since moving here, I’ve learnt a lot more about Scotland, its politics and place in the UK/world, than I ever did at history lessons at an English grammar school back in the day (history teacher- a certain Mr. MacPherson, nicknamed Cluny. I never at the time understood why).

      It was immediately obvious that I was going to vote SNP from day zero (10th Aug. 2004). And Independence. Independence is in my blood – Poland, Italy.

      So no racism, xenophobia or otherwise meant or intended, unless non-Scots read something otherwise intended.

    106. Scott 4.01pm

      re the Glasgow women’s dispute settlement

      a couple of days back, there was a 10 minutes discussion about the settlement where Libby Purves was interviewing one of the womens’ representatives who had been involved in the negotiations.

      They managed to talk for a full 10 minutes or more and never mentioned the SNP or SLAB once.

      Did you know they went on strike because there was once upon a time, an era where the women were earning £3 an hour less than their male colleagues for doing the same work . Nobody caused that – you realise.
      But it’s all sorted now because the women went on strike – not thanks to any intervention from the new regime and no mention of being taken to court to prevent equal pay.

      Stupid discussion.

    107. Galamcennalath and T jenny

      I found it quite entertaining listening to a discussion on the radio this morning. Mp’s complaining that EFTA was not suitable because they would be expected to follow all the EU rules while having no voice at the table; they would have no control over immigration and various other gripes.

      It struck me how similar their perceived future life is to the experience we currently have to endure and they wonder why we want to have independence. e.g. follow rules, while having no voice at the table, no control over who gets to stay here etc…

      In fact I have often thought that if you ask someone why they want to leave the EU, especially a southerner, you can often turn those very reasons back to them as reasons why we want independence from WM. Most pertinent of all being the infamous “Take Back Control”

      Maybe that should be our slogan for Indy ref 2!

    108. ronnie anderson says:

      Sarah there still looking at my complaint

    109. Ghillie

      what will (T)Ruthless vote?

      After all she has to think of the little man-child’s future now …

    110. Sarah says:

      @ Ronnie – well, you’ve told them, so have to leave it with them. Though what chance OSCR has against the secret service I don’t know!

      On the subject of complaints, I emailed Tesco Chief exec re the sprouting of UJs – I said I’d be shopping 40 miles away rather than buy items with UJs on. The response was to say they have changed packaging recently and have no plans to change it again. And they are sorry that I am upset by the packaging!

      And 40 miles away I found Morrisons and Lidls have a lot of UJs too…and Lidls packaging says “Honest British produce”!! What can they mean? And they are a German company, for heavens sake – why are they pandering to British nationalism?

      So I went to a farm shop for my veg – only to find that the farmer blames the EU for the Brexit trouble and believes it is scaremongering to talk of high tariffs. “They’ll soon see sense. The Europeans will tell their politicians to sort things out.” My powers of persuasion deserted me but at least I stayed calm instead of smiting him with one of his own swedes.

    111. ronnie anderson says:

      Scott 7.04 Its up to Diana Abbot to make a complaint to the Bbc but she’s making a good few bucks from her appearances , she’s behind the scene but she has the opportunity to object when she’s on camera or interject whilst its ongoing .

      I dont hear the Labour party complaining , why should we be bovvered .

    112. ronnie anderson says:

      Sarah went to Tesco for 4 McGhee’s rolls ( £1 ) Frid £1.20 McGhee’s put price up Why BREXSHIT

    113. Gerry says:

      O/T Londonderry on fire again. Suspected car bomb. Not a good sign…

    114. Tom Busza says:

      Brian Doonthetoon 9.10 pm (previous thread the dead one)

      Good one sir

    115. Tom Busza says:

      Sarah 8.22 pm

      Sorry – UJ? Bit slow tonight, please elucidate. Many thnaks

    116. Essexexile says:

      I admire your devotion to your particular cause, but probably worth pointing out that your 80 mile round trip attempting to avoid Union Jack labelled produce put at least £5 in the Westminster coffers through fuel tax alone.
      That’ll print a fair few Better Together leaflets.

    117. Ken500 says:

      @ National

      Poll – GE

      SNP 47% up from 37% up 10%

      Tory 24% down 4% from 28%

      Labour 13% down 13% from 26%.

    118. Car bomb just gone off in Derry/Londonderry.

      Wonder who is responsible for that then?

      Trying to stop re-unification?

    119. Ken500 says:

      There are reports UJ are for WTO rules. Brexit?

      Not long ago Lidl and M&S were festooned in saltires. They will be soon. Come Independence.

    120. Sarah

      I met a farmer’s wife at the Indy demo outside Holyrood on Thursday – they do beef and crops – she said that all the farmers around her ( Linlithgow) are in no doubt that Brexit will be horrendous for them and No deal especially so.

      Most are also pro-indy.

    121. Tom Busza says:

      Ah, OK UJ = Union Jack (or Union Flag)…duh!

    122. geeo says:

      Link to meg’s post re: car bomb.

      What to make of this one ??

    123. Tom Busza says:

      Meg merrilees 9.22 pm

      Or trying to force re-unification?

      Depends who claims responsibility and PSNI investigation.

    124. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ken500 thats poll is a sub sample, if your quoting figures please be accurate. The margin for error is a lot higher than the stand 3%+/-

    125. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Because anything they get away with doing to Diane Abbot they can get away with anyone else and that includes us.

      Q.T. was a disgrace and Fiona Bruce was the worst of it.

    126. Sarah says:

      @ Meg and all – thanks for the good news re most farmers being pro-indy and for the general encouragement. The man on the till at Lidls did say their tatties and carrots are from local farms, and all meat and fish is Scottish.

      Essexexile – don’t worry. I didn’t only go for the shopping so had to use the fuel anyway!

      Now, why no response to my query about external parties being excluded from domestic votes? Am I missing something?

    127. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can anyone who is planning to greet the arrivals at the Scotland In Union Burns Dinner on Thursday please spread word that some of us will be meeting in Yes Bar around 4-ish. Others are going straight to The Social in Royal Exchange Square at roughly the same time.

      Can I please stress that this is not an ‘organised’ event as-such, it’s just some Yessers meeting for a pint, as we did last year. We will certainly make SIU members and guests aware of our presence but we are not going there to cause trouble or obstruct anyone. On the contrary – we want the SIU guests to see us having such a good time that they’ll leave early and join us, in more ways than one!


    128. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      What goes on behind closed doors..

    129. Shug says:

      Geeo @1.25
      That score is not good enough we have to do better
      They will stand one candidate against us in as many seats as the can to improve their result
      We must do everything to ensure there is a labour and conservative candidate in every seat

    130. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Jabberwocky is an Indy stalwart, doing his radio show, playing requests, promoting indy events. He needs more listeners, so please give him a shot via this link:

    131. geeo says:

      Are you on drugs, shug ?

      Concerned citizen.

      47% of the vote in a GE = over 50 seats from 59.

      You think thats not good enough ?

      Really !!

      Acasemic anyway, as there will not be a GE anytme soon and we are going independent soon, so….sorry bout that old bean.

    132. Tom Busza says:

      I ordered a book on Amazon. “How to have nothing to do with your neighbours!”
      Unfortunately, I was out when it was delivered.
      (Milton Jones)

    133. Dan says:

      Ken500 @ 9.24pm

      Those packaging changes from Saltires to UJs could be the first sightings of “a new UK logo”.

      From the following archived article headed: “Producing food products protected by a ‘geographical indication’ if there’s no Brexit deal”.

      According to the article, “Negotiations are progressing well and both we and the EU continue to work hard to seek a positive deal”…

    134. cynicalHighlander says:

      Ian Brotherhood :
      19 January, 2019 at 10:15 pm

      Link not working!

    135. AndyMcKangry says:

      Bomb in NI
      BBC “Suspect work of dissident republicans”( always the same labelling )
      In the real, non propaganda world- “Really” why would the team winning the long game so stupidly break the rules??
      English empire at their usual games again with the help of their media wing.
      I always reflect nowadays how spoon fed we were growing up in the 60’s to 90’s that “ republican/Nationalist = bad, Unionist/Loyalist = good, especially from the BBC and how we robotically just accepted that.
      Now we know how different the reality is and we question everything( well those of us with half a brain and a hatred of reality telly do!!!)
      For a good number of years I was a member of her majesty’s emergency services but once you come into the light you see so much more clearly than before!!
      Thank you wings and all wingers!!

    136. Clootie says:

      …it’s not funny anymore ??

    137. Gfaetheblock says:


      Suggest you speak to more than one farmer before you look to speak for all. I am a total townie, but in-laws all farm, and I socialise with many farmers. From my experience, most are pro Eu and pro uk, as they are exposed to the impact of shrinking markets, currency issues and the danger of regulatory divergence.

      This is all before you ask folk about the SNP’s mismanagement of the farm payments system.

    138. Cyber-Corroboree says:

      SNP depute leader Keith Brown told the Now Is the Time demonstration outside the Scottish Parliament on Thursday that “you don’t need to hear the starting gun to campaign for independence.”

      He sounds keen!

    139. Shinty says:

      Dan says
      “According to the article, “Negotiations are progressing well and both we and the EU continue to work hard to seek a positive deal”

      Above article is from Sept 2018. Another snippet re GI status
      “These products make an important contribution to local economies and enhance the UK’s reputation for high-quality food and drink”

      There you have it folks – say cheerie bye to Scotland the Brand.

      As some posters have already stated, the bastards have been planning this for a very long time.

    140. cynicalHighlander says:

      Cyber-Corroboree says:
      19 January, 2019 at 11:59 pm

      Where are all these rebuttals of misinformation that he was going to do, as I have seen none? Didn’t vote for him because I feel uneasy about him and still do.

    141. GrahamB says:

      How’s this for blatant lies on BBC Scotland website

      “Two patients have died after contracting a fungal infection caused by pigeon droppings at the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital.
      NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde said an elderly patient died but from an unrelated cause.
      Another infected patient has also died but the factors contributing to the death are still being investigated.”

      Do they not even read over what they post or is there a right hand and left hand at work here?

    142. Shinty says:

      “This is all before you ask folk about the SNP’s mismanagement of the farm payments system”

      Of course, no mention of the farm payments being delayed from Westminster to the Scottish Government. Nor Westminster stealing EU money specifically intended for Scottish farmers. (giving it English farmers instead) 160million I think.

      Also, a large majority of farm payments go to the ‘big boys’ not the farms which really need it.

    143. Cubby says:


      What’s next from the BBC.

      “Two patients have died after contracting a brain disease called Scottish independence. The SNP are killing Scots.”

      The media in Scotland must be one of the worst in the world.

    144. Capella says:

      “Two people died after brushing their teeth this morning”, would have been equally true. Or not.

      Of course, it may turn out these were Russian pigeons.

      Still, it is reassuring that nothing more noteworthy has happened in Scotand than two elderly patients dying in hospital. Sympathy to their families.

    145. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 20 January, 2019 at 1:26 am@

      ” … What’s next from the BBC.
      “Two patients have died after contracting a brain disease called Scottish independence. The SNP are killing Scots.”
      The media in Scotland must be one of the worst in the world.”

      Och! Cubby, The BBC are, as usual, propagating fake news. There has been severe outbreaks of that particular virulent disease going back for centuries and they all came about by infections from the Westminster area in London.

      Our Scottish history records that the great Scottish hero, William Wallace died on 23 August 1305, at Smithfield in London from a particularly virulent strain of that particular infection.

      He apparently caught it from the English royalty of that time. Strangely enough, although carrying the disease, the Englanders seemed to be immune to it.

    146. Cyber-Corroboree says:

      The Sunday Times signalling that May’s refusal of a renewed request from the First Minister for a section 30 will be even more forthright this time.

      The plot thickens.

    147. Robert Louis says:

      Dan at 1058pm,

      Even if the English colonial government insists on a ‘new UK’ logo on protected goods, their is NOTHING whatsoever stopping Scottish companies also proudly displaying the saltire in an even larger way. So, say London insist on the odious English colonial ‘union jack’, Scottish producers should make it as small as possible to comply, but alongside it put a massive ‘MADE IN SCOTLAND’ ,with a massive Scotland flag. Unless of course, those food producers in Scotland are happy for Scotland to be treated as an English colony, with their own country being removed from their produce.

      If I come across Scottish produce labelled with the butchers apron, I will rather not buy or instead buy something from a different country, which is not tarnished in that way. I recently bought apples from the USA (bizarrely), yet strangely, even with TRUMP, the entire packet was not covered with the US flag. The same goes for most other countries. It is England (and ONLY) England that insists on this union jackery on products.

      Then of course you have even worse nonsense, such as vauxhall, promoting itself as a ‘British brand’ since 1903′, trying to make out it is still ‘british’, when in reality, vauxhall is a FRENCH company, owned by the PSA group from France, which also makes, amongst others, Peugeot and citroen cars. Buy a vauxhall, and it has a wee badge on it, of a union jack, saying ‘british made’. (A good reason for not buying one, in my opinion). Besides, if they were being honest, it would have the flag of France, and it would say something like ‘produit par un fabricant français’ (or something…).

      England is so messed up right now. Sad to see so many companies pandering to their xenophobic hateful nonsense.

      Looking forward to the First Minister announcing indyref2 in a couple of weeks.

    148. Robert Louis says:

      Cyber corroboree at 0724,

      Given that Times report quoted Pete Wishart and Jim Sillars, I think we can safely say it doesn’t reflect the prevailing view within the SNP.

      Just judging by the articles being punted out, against independence, it is abundantly clear that Westminster is rather terrified if NS calls the indyref2 right now. You could not have a weaker Westminster government if you tried.

      No, Westminster and its spin doctors in ‘The Times’, should be ignored. Now is the time. We simply cannot have an SNP Scottish government sit back, and fret, while this utter mess of brexit is imposed upon Scotland. And SNP MP, after MP publicly said so, last week in the HoC. They also cited the claim of right. No section 30 needed.

      I would genuinely treat that article in the Times as typical unionist bull. They are clearly getting rattled. I fully expect the number of such articles in the English-owned, so-called ‘Scottish media’, to increase over the next week or so.

      Not long now.

    149. Ken500 says:

      Just re quoted figures

      Even with difference it is still higher

      SNP 44%

      Tory 27%

      Labour 16%

      SNP still out polling other parties. . Polls can be manipulated in any case.

      Just an antidote to ‘the guy in the chip shop, who calls himself Elvis, down the road hates the SNP.’

    150. potter says:

      Scottish government has been fined 0 from the EU for late CAP payments. UK government has been fined £642 million, £2.70 out of every £100 wasted in fines.Did you ask your farmer pals about that?

    151. wull2 says:

      The pigeons likely caught the disease from the squirrels, they are everywhere just now.

    152. Gfaetheblock says:


      I suspect that they generally do not care about level of fines paid, there real life experience is of delays, missed deadlines and a overly bureaucratic loan process to cover the late payments.

      Also, the article you link to is 3.5 years old, the rUK has improved efficiency helping Scotland avoid fines

    153. Ghillie says:

      God alone knows what goes through the minds of the msm hacks when they create their headlines ( and I mean exactly what I say there)

      The two people referred to in that article have died and left bereaved family and friends.

      My thoughts are with you.

    154. Ghillie says:

      As or Scotland’s Indyref, Nicola Sturgeon, our First Minister will call it at exactly the correct time.

    155. potter says:

      @gfaetheblock. The Express, LOL. Pretty sure farmers would be annoyed that the UK gov has wasted £642 million of their money, but thats OK, their not the SNP, and the SNP are bad.UKOK does it better.

    156. Dorothy Devine says:

      I have come to realise that waiting for a mythical starting gun is nonsense – we fired the starting gun by not giving up and still insisting on independence.

      Word of mouth , chats at the bus stop ,chats in shops ,all grist to the mill and infinitely valuable against a disgusting media.

    157. Iain says:

      With all this fuss over pigeon droppings at the new southern genral hospital I remember watching whole flocks of pigeons flying round the corridors of the old victoria infirmary.

    158. Capella says:

      The Tories are certainly out canvassing as if for a GE. My Tory MP sent me a glossy leaflet detailing everything he is doing for my constituency. Priority is NO to Indyref2.

      They’re going to have to tell us sometime if there is a GE being planned? Or are we not required to vote nowadays.

    159. Ken500 says:

      Ross Thomson left Aberdeen City £1.2Million in debt, A grotesque, monstrosity Muse project of empty shops and offices. It will cost £7Million for thirty years. £Million. A concert jungle when people want open spaces and pedestrianisation. People were protesting in the street agsinst to no avail. A Conference Centre that will sit empty most of the time. £300Million waste of money. A Art Gallery renovation over 5 years. Late and over budget. A bad mistake. Refused a £80Million gift to pedestrianise the City. It would have cost £20Million. Wasting £Millions. An illegal Con/Lab coalition. Kept in power by a two job Tory. Tom Mason. Nicola did not recognise. Probably because he is hardly ever there. Putting two fingers up at the City.

      There are 100 teachers short. Class sizes too high. No proper total abstinence, one chance rehab services. They wanted to put homeless people in prison.

      The Greens claim the Councils are underfunded, without including the money they get from other sources and the money they are borrowing and spending like there is no tomorrow. £Million/Billion Yet they cannot provide essential services but are wasteful spending on non mandated, non essential other projects. The unionist Councils are a disgrace

    160. manandboy says:


      “In the hope of gathering some intelligence about how the captain of the Brexit ghost ship intends to navigate her way out of this hell, I turned to a senior and clever Tory who is a close shipmate of the prime minister. How will it end? Came his sagacious reply: “I haven’t got a fucking clue.””

    161. Ken500 says:

      Westminster took £160Million intended for poorer Scottish farmers (sheep) from the EU. It was recognised they were losing out. Westminster took it and gave it to wealthier farmers in the south (their subsidies had been cut). Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP payment (pro rata) in the EU.

      If Scotland had been Independent the CAP payments would not have been late. The farmers received loans in lieu, so they were not out of pocket. Some did not even apply for them. The problems were caused by a new EU computer system. Installed to avoid fraud and the EU covered all expenses. It will save £Billions.

      Farming will change soon. Land changing hands. New innovation. Farmers are elderly and many have children/family who do not want to take up farming. Earning more from other occupations. Average farming income is £27,000. The average income. Family members work in other occupations. Vegan is increasing dramatically. Farming methods will change appropriately. Scotland food and drink industry is worth over £4Billion. Whisky even more. Barley production. Oats, Seed Oil etc. Premium produces. Some whisky companies evade tax.

    162. Cod says:

      Look, I have no love for the Labour Branch office, or the Westminster head office, but let’s at least be objective here. Clearly, what Labour were trying to do was to object against the SNP amendment because of the first part of the amendment and not the parts about a no deal Brexit. This part, to be precise:

      “…urges the UK Government to support Scottish industry by providing an additional £388 million…”

      Now,there could be a number of reasons why Westminster Labour would disagree with that, including that it would look like Labour were agreeing to give Scotland more money, without any reciprocal measure for other parts of the UK.

      Of course, that’s not actually true, but appearances are everything in politics sometimes, and this appears, on the surface, to be an attempt by the SNP to scoop out the pork barrel by tying in a rider for money into something only tangentially related, and then being able to say, “look this party refused to do such and such, they’re hypocrites”, when the legislation is refused because of the rider and not the original legislation.

      Parties all do the same thing, all the time. It’s a small version of the pork barrelling so prevalent in American politics.

      Of course, the fact remains that Labour policy on Europe, and pretty much everything else, remains confused, because you have a party which is actually two parties, and is in a war between members and MPs.

    163. Cod says:

      Sorry, the end of that last post should have said:

      “…and is in a war between members and MPs, and the leadership.”

    164. Ken500 says:

      Could the Tories make a bigger mess? What a complete and utter shambles. An absolute disgrace. People are being sanctioned, starved and illegally deported.

      Where is the breakdown of the claimed £39Billion payment to the EU. Where is the balance sheet. Why do they Tories not have to publish it. More lies?

    165. Ken500 says:

      The only way out of their mess is to call a GE they can lose. The unionists do it all the time.

    166. Abulhaq says:

      [Salmond told the Sunday National that Sturgeon’s focus should remain upon the ideal of Scottish independence.
      “Nicola should be concentrating all her energies on the independence agenda where we will never have better circumstances,” he said.
      “As far as I am concerned Westminster’s Brexit difficulty should be Scotland’s opportunity.”]

      Been posting stuff like that and labelled ‘troll’ for my pains. Opportunities don’t come better than this.

    167. Ken500 says:

      The window of opportunity is when there is not another election. It is not advantageous to fight two campaigns at the same time. A GE or another EU Ref can be called at any time. Just let the unionists muck up even more. Demographically support for Ibdependence will incease. The unionists can be voted out in Scotland in 2+ years. Then an Independence Ref. There will be no opposition. The Tory/unionists are destroying themselves. The Tories are to blame for Brexit. They are destroying their own Party. Let them.

    168. laukat says:

      There seems to be a lot of talk about if its the right timing for a new indyref. However the FM has always said the time for a new Indyref will be once the terms of brexit are known. One way or another the terms of Brexit will be known by this summer as a either we leave on 29th March or there is an article 50 extension that is unlikely to go much beyond the EU elections on 1st June.

      As far as I can see it took about 5 months from the Edinburgh agreement to parliamentary approval.

      That being the case the FM kind of has to ask for a Section 30 now to allow enough time for the process to take place to hold a vote at any point from July onwards.

    169. Ken500 says:

      Alex Salmond needs to come back into the fold. Unfortunately he is non elected at the monent. He needs back in to stand, The NE/Scotland needs him. The AWPR, the wind turbines in the Bay (an eyesore) producing £Millions, the Golf Developments. £Billions Development helping the economy. All Alex Salmond. Hopefully the Tory/unionists will be gone soon. SNP all the way. Get it done.

      The Tories could not make a bigger mess. A shambles. Deja Vu. The tax evaders ruining the economy. What a shower. How mean. Sanctioning starving and deporting people. The illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Ruining people’s lives.

    170. Jock McDonnell says:

      Of course, one outcome of a single police force or a centralised hospital facility is that when the negative events occur, they are associated with a single entity & over time that entity gets a bad rep.
      Difficult to say how many incidents there would be if we still had 8 police forces & multiple hospital sites in the QE catchment area.

    171. Jock McDonnell says:

      It may well be as some above say that the tories are now busy canvassing for a GE.
      I know Keith Brown already set the SNP on a GE footing.
      From what I have read in the last 2 days, a GE on The 28th Feb would, legally, need to be notified by the end of this month.
      The FM knows this I’m sure. She will factor that into any timeline for announcing Indyref2.
      I’m not sure though what a GE would solve, Labour & Tory would both need to campaign on a leave ticket.

    172. Ken500 says:

      If people in Scotland had not voted Tory/unionist, all this would not be happening,

    173. Hamish100 says:

      ken 500

      AS is not only “non-elected” as you say he resigned from the SNP and is not a member. Reality is this will have to run its course. Sillars and others are wild cards and if they paused for a moment they should consider whether giving airtime to Unionist papers and news media assists who best?

    174. Jock McDonnell says:

      FM on Marr next week.

    175. Bobp says:

      Ken 500. If people in Scotland had’nt voted no, all this would not be happening.

    176. Bobp says:

      AndyMckangry 11.46 19th. ‘English empire at their usual games again with the help of their ” loyalist” wing.

    177. ronnie anderson says:

      Abulhaq A’ve goat they mixer taps tae they kin run hoat n run cauld they can even run hoat n cauld at the same time hence the name mixer but ma support for Scottish Independence is fixed

    178. Daisy Walker says:

      O/T just because,

      That was a good article yesterday in the National from Angus Robertson re the Film Studio starting up in Scotland.

      Not before time.

      NI estimate they get about £25 million generated (both from the filming itself) and the additional tourism – from Game of Thrones being filmed (in part) in their country.

      Scotland lost out there – big time.

      But its not just a Studio.

      If you get regular filming of TV and Film shows, in addition to actors, and writers, and stage directors… it means jobs for sparkies, joiners, caterers, hairdressers and make-up artists. It means extras getting short term (cash in hand type work). Can you imagine a young person getting that opportunity on set, looking around and seeing all those different types of skills and occupations and not being inspired?

      It lifts an area – since it attracts talented (and sometimes quite good looking) people, and while working in the area, they need accommodation, a place to eat, a place to party, a place to shop.

      But of course, lots of film production these days rely on Computer Generated Special Effects… no way poor, wee Scotland could compete in that market, eh.

      Wrong! Dundee company created the worlds biggest selling computer game – and Dundee Uni is a leading centre of excellence in the subject in part due to this dynamic.

      Anyway, just thought I’d share.

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 20 January, 2019 at 7:57 am:

      ” … Then of course you have even worse nonsense, such as vauxhall, promoting itself as a ‘British brand’ since 1903?, trying to make out it is still ‘british’,”

      Vauxhall! British?

      In my teens I distinctly remember that Vauxhall were part of General Motors and I’m sure they, GM were USA. They were the biggest rust buckets on the market in the 50s and 60s.

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hamish100 says: 20 January, 2019 at 11:14 am:

      ” … Sillars and others are wild cards and if they paused for a moment they should consider whether giving airtime to Unionist papers and news media assists who best?”

      They know full well exactly who they are assisting and that is why they are doing so. Here’s a wee hint for you, Hamish100 – it is neither the SNP, Scottish government or the Kingdom of Scotland.

    181. jezza says:

      Alex Salmond will not be allowed near any SNP Independence Campaign.

      He is toxic at the moment and the BritNat media would have a field day with him. With 90% of any interviews with him talking about sexual abuse allegations.

      It it a non starter,,,Nicola will never let that happen.

    182. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Ken500 ‘it is not advantageous to fight two campaigns at the same time. A GE or another EU Ref can be called at any time. ‘

      I think this time round, whether its IndyR2 or GE – we really only have one message, Scotland has to be Indy to save itself. And when you look at how successful the Tory campaign last GE was, with just a single strong (all be it shitty) message – there is obviously something that resonates with the electorate, if the message is a simple strong one.

      My choice would be – YES NOW

      With variations on a theme – ENOUGH! YES NOW.

      Or how about – BROKEN VOW, BREXIT CHAOS – YES NOW.

      @ Jock McDonnell ‘From what I have read in the last 2 days, a GE on The 28th Feb would, legally, need to be notified by the end of this month’.

      Someone worked this out, but from the point of view of Corbyn trying the VONC and winning.

      In that event 24/1/19 was the last chance, since 14 days would need to be granted to attempt to pull together a cross party govt. Once that failed, they need a minimum of 7 weeks to arrange/hold another GE. I can’t remember where I got the details (sorry) and I’m not sure if its normal weeks, or 7 ‘working/sitting’ days in WM, but the source was credible.

      In any event 21/1/19 is the deadline the EU have set for some form of answer, or they declare No Deal – how and ever, they have been very accommodating so far in extending their deadlines… so this one might stretch a few more days (unfortunately).

      YES NOW

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      Colour me cynical, but this “civil war” or “uncivil war” between Salmond’s “camp” and Sturgeon’s “camp” doesn’t ring true. Leads me to think it’s manufactured, in which case why?

      Well, firstly it’s brought some in the MSM out of the woodwork, and how. To their total discredit. It’s also got some surprisng support for Salmond. And it’s put Indy Ref 2 front and centre in media that would like to foget it exists: “There can’t be an Indy Ref with all this going on”. Well, think again.

      Secondly, it’s wound the clock down for a couple of weeks – a couple of weeks in which, we the Indy supporters have been getting restless, antsy with each other even. Yet we manage to unite in support in themselves, for both Salmond and Sturgeon whose hearts are clearly in Independence for Scotland. They’re our sort of people.

      It’s been helped by the usual MSM go to SNP suspects, who could be considered to be running interference, as the Yanks would say. Dummy runs as we might in rugby.

    184. Daisy Walker says:

      And, since I’m on a roll, re YES NOW.

      It really does have quite a lot going for it. Even if I do say so myself.

      It marks the urgency of the decision.

      It allows for people having given the UK a second chance – having to move positions due to their (the UK’s) incompetence.

      It’s short and pithy, and fits well on all sizes of poster.

      If you like it folks, set printer to Print and fill yir windaes – every car is a billboard.

      There were a few Tweets on the Rev’s account re Billboards yesterday. They didn’t hit and miss – re trying to get the SNP to utilise them. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, they’ve been incredibly unwilling (in Tayside) to utilise their own windows, never mind billboards until very recently.

      That doesn’t stop us though, does it. IndyPosterBoy has some absolute crackers, different sizes and suitable for home printing or professional – and because they are pictorial – the message goes out, even to those reluctant to read the information. Very powerful.

      Yes We Can.

    185. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s also, by the way, brought a few trolls out from under the bridge (social media, forums AND real life) as they seek to capitalise on a situation which, basically, only exists in the fetid imagination of rank unionist agitators, open ones or sleeping ones

    186. Ken500 says:

      Holding two campaigns could mean losing. In the meantime the unionists could be voted out in Scotland and support is rising demographically. There needs to be a window of opportunity when there is no election/referendum on the horizon. The last election was influenced by ‘no surrrerrender’ and electoral fatigue. It is better if that does not happen again. Just let the Tory/unionists destroy themselves. There will be no opposition left. Then have another IndyRef. In the next two years?

    187. Ken500 says:

      There is a limit to electoral spending. The SNP and any other Party is supposed to stick to it. Other people can do what they like. There is a limited budget supplied by SNP members. That is why they decide what is being spent. It is their money. Not the ‘little red hens’ doing the criticism.

    188. Macart says:


      RE: Civil War

      Worst ever. Only just got the custard stains out of my old shirt from the last one. Pie shrapnel everywhere. I’ll be picking crumbs out of my coat for weeks. 😀

      Yes, manufactured nonsense and also yes by the usual suspects. You have to wonder what these boneheads get out of this idiocy? You literally get paid to spread rumour, strife, doubt and hatred. You get paid to put folk in harms way because it either puts brass in your pocket or suits some other sociopath’s party political tribalism. Tones of Carmichael’s ‘that’s politics’ statement. Just how it’s always been. That’s how things are done… etc.

      Smearing, exaggerating, misdirection, quoting (anything) out of context, even outright fibbery. These folk reckon that’s just how you do the politics thing.

      It’s a job. I suppose.

      Mind you. It does rely on folk believing them. It relies on folks’ willingness to believe them. Soon as people do actually check their own reality against the one presented to them by the media? Well. Who knew that screaming headlines and paras filled with supposition, wishful thinking, rumour and manufactured shock and awe don’t hold up to scrutiny? (shrugs)

    189. Ken500 says:

      Other people can do what they legally like. Political Parties are no allowed to exceed spending. It is not legal, political Parties are supposed to act within the Law. Unionists Parties chose not to. They enjoy the electoral backlash. Liars always get found out.

      The constant critisism of the SNP from some people, usually not members. Does not help the Independence movement at all. Reflect in it. Acting as fifth columnists is not to anyone’s benefit. Especially for those who believe in Ibdependence.

    190. Jim McIntosh says:


      ”It is not advantageous to fight two campaigns at the same time”

      We wouldn’t be fighting 2 campaigns. That’s the problem we created for ourselves in 2017. Any time you vote SNP you’re voting for Independence. What did we think would happen when the SNP stated at the last election “this is not about Independence”? We have to condition people to get out and vote SNP at EVERY election.

    191. Ken500 says:

      There are plenty of billboards and leaflets produced. In some cases too many. Some get destroyed. There are paid for with SNP members money. There is a limit on them. If people are so concerned why don’t they join donate, campaign and canvass. Instead of sitting on the outside criticising. Sitting on the fence.

    192. starlaw says:

      General election could be called any time. Laws in Britain matter not a jot as the ‘ Perrogative ‘ can be used whenever the Prime Minister wishes. UK is not a democracy its a Monarchy the constitution of which the Monarch or surrogate makes up as it goes along.

    193. starlaw says:

      If a GE is called then SNP should fight it on an independence ticket win most seats and declare Treaty of Union to be over, then wait to see how long it takes Westminster to demand a referendum on the subject.

    194. Jim McIntosh says:

      ”They enjoy the electoral backlash. Liars always get found out.”

      What electoral backlash? Do you really think people will think “I’m not voting for them, they broke spending rules”? The Electoral Commission is a joke, until someone is jailed for electoral fraud nothing will change. In real life the good guy very seldom wins.

    195. Ken500 says:

      Did more or less people get out and vote SNP at the GE. That is the answer to your question. Independence/voting for the SNP is not just for one election it is for them all. The Tories used ‘No surrender’ to increase their vote. Labour illegally told their members to vote Tory. The SNP lost votes no because ‘Independence’ was not mentioned but because the opposition parties mentioned it all the time. When it was a GE not a IndyRef.

      Now that is not the case. It is still better not to be trying to run two campaigns at the same time. At the moment because of Brexit. Demographics. The muddle has to clear. It will wiithin the next few months. The unionists are destroying themselves. Soon there will be no opposition.

    196. Ken500 says:

      There is certainly a unionists backlash in Scotland. The good people do win.

    197. Ken500 says:

      The SNP would be in total power in Scotland if the unionists had not changed the electoral system illegally, to give them unfair advantage D’Hond’t and STV. Leslie Evans. The SNP still has a majority in Holyrood, Westminster, the Councils? It can be increased upon. Then have another IndyRef. Let the unionist destroy themselves. There will be no opposition.

    198. @Robert Peffers,

      On 6 March 2017, General Motors (American) and Groupe PSA (French)announced their agreement that PSA will buy GM’s Vauxhall and Opel subsidiaries in a deal worth €2.2 billion.

    199. Jim McIntosh says:

      I’d be very surprised if any of the”unionist backlash” is because the parties overspent.

    200. Tatu3 says:

      My son is a vfx artist in the tv/movie industry. He works in London. All the big names – Framestore, Double Negative, ILM etc are all based in London or overseas. Many of the artists in these companies are from mainland europe and are worried about their status/jobs after March.
      It would be good if Scotland could encourage some of these companies to set up in Scotland when they are building up their film and tv industry.
      My son would LOVE to move back to Scotland, but the work/experience he needs is in London. For the moment he hopes.

    201. Breeks says:

      laukat says:
      20 January, 2019 at 10:44 am

      That being the case the FM kind of has to ask for a Section 30 now to allow enough time for the process to take place to hold a vote at any point from July onwards.

      If the SNP passes the buck and doesn’t stand firm to protect Scotland’s EU Citizenship and Constitutional Sovereignty BEFORE Scotland is Brexited, they better borrow Richard Leonard’s brass neck to come back seeking my vote in the Summer.

      It takes some going to transform Brexit into a non-event in Constitutional terms, and it beggars belief that anyone seriously believes that Scotland will ever again line up a sound and indisputable democratic majority, an impending act of ultra vires Constitutional subjugation, have the EU willing Scotland to stay on board with the great EU project, and suffer a breathtakingly inept and stupid Westminster Government with one party as feckless and dysfunctional as the other. Add to that the loss of ECJ jurisdiction, the disenfranchisement of all our friends from Europe, and the impending dismantling of Scotland’s institutions and facilities, and contamination of our excellent food and produce sector with sub-standard deregulated foodstuffs and contaminants…

      If you are seriously telling me the SNP still won’t be able to see the wood for the trees until those trees are bulldozed and set alight, then Scotland URGENTLY needs a new political initiative to step up between now and March to defend our country from the rabid stupidity and act of colonial vandalism which Brexit represents.

      Vote SNP in the Summer? If they’ve turned a blind eye to Brexit, why the living fk would I want to do that?

      Ian Blackford said Scotland would not be removed from Europe against its will. Angus MacNeil says the SNP needs to fight for Independence, not saving the UK from Brexit. So if the real game is postponed until Summer in Brexitland, then who is talking shite to whom?

      68 Days to Brexit. The SNP better get its story straight and be bloody quick about it.

      I repeat the call… What is the strength of feeling for an appeal to the ECJ requesting guidance whether Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally by Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty? What say you Alex Salmond? Craig Murray? Ian Bell? Joanna Cherry? Lesley Riddoch? What say you Court of Session? Scotland needs you!

    202. Ken500 says:

      The SNP members money is used for all the billboards leaflets etc put up within the spending limits. Money contributed by pensioners and people of low incomes. Do some none members think that pensioners and people of low income should be contributing even more. To satisfy the demands of non members who just constantly criticise no not contribute, canvass or campaign. Bit of a bloody cheek. Where do they think the money comes from the 100,000 members and other contributions.

      Conducting two campaigns at the same time requires even more effort and money. Where do the like red hens think the money is coming from? No from them it seems. They should get off their backsides instead of constantly blaming other people. People doing their best.

    203. Ken500 says:

      The unionist backlash is coming from their mass ignorance, badness, arrogance, conceit and mismanagement. This will increase, by every demographics indicator, by the shambles. The complete and utter mess of lies and intransigence which will ultimately bring about Independence.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s pot stirring time. Add a little salt and pepper, bring to the boil, serve with some crusty bread.

      Delicious! I’ll have another bowl, please.

    205. Petra says:

      ‘Why did BBC Breakfast pretend GP staffing figures for Scotland are not available?’


      ‘More than 3 million* ‘believe’ BBC Scotland is biased ‘after’ survey is ‘analysed’.’


      ‘BBC and STV headlines ‘after’ today little better than pigeon droppings?’

    206. Ken500 says:

      There are 2million? people in Scotland who support Independence. Some of whom do not give a minute of their time or a halfpenny of their money. Some of whom sit in the sidelines constantly criticising others – the SNP (members). They do not contribute a halfpenny of time or money but they get all the benefits. Aye they get all the benefits of SNP Governance. They should take a good look at themselves before they keep on criticising others.

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      I think you’ve got to go back to August 2014, and what Salmond said very soon after the Ref. Before that, 2012-14 there was constant discussion about strategy, with a conclusion that a positive campaign beats a negative one. The alternative being you have to be more negative than the other side. YES ran a positive one.

      After the Ref Salmond said they did discuss changing the strategy in August, but decided it was going OK and the other strategy was more risky. Perhaps it was our own currency to replace sterlingisation, perhaps it was a more biting nasty strategy, who knows.

      I think it was the right decision to leave well alone, we nearly made it, and the legacy of the continued positive co-operative stragey is a good one, that 45% support kept going and whatever Unionist agitators might like to say, the campaign left a good taste in most people’s minds. Indy is mainstream in Scottish politics, and an acceptable alternative to the Union, whereas otherwise it could have gone back to being the wish of us nutcases. Back to 25% even.

      Yet before that, Better Together and particularly Darling made several mistakes which weren’t capitalised on. Why? Because to do so would have been a negative approach.

    208. Jim McIntosh says:

      “They do not contribute a halfpenny of time or money but they get all the benefits. Aye they get all the benefits of SNP Governance. They should take a good look at themselves before they keep on criticising others.”

      What utter nonsense. We get SNP governance because the majority voted for them. If only SNP members voted for them they’d be lucky to have any seats at all. I vote for a party and if I don’t think they’re fulfilling their election promises I will criticise them. Being a party member doesn’t give you any special rights in that respect.

    209. Dr Jim says:

      This morning a police chief in Northern Ireland made a statement on the car bomb in which he condemned the bombers and quite rightly so but what interested me was the language that he used in doing so, and it went pretty much like this

      (Not verbatim) This bombing was carried out in Londonderry by dissident republicans and we will not tolerate this in Derry, “republicans will never hold sway in this city”, and that kinda gave away that particular police officers personal loyalties which he’s not supposed to do

      And it was that line in what he said and the way that he said it that I thought reflected Scotlands Unionist attitude in Scotland, it’s plain and simple no matter what is said or done by anyone right or wrong, good or bad, benefit or no benefit

      “republicans will never hold sway”

      Scotland is full of people with this attitude, they don’t want facts, they don’t care about information, they don’t care about anything that might happen tomorrow or next week because all that matters is what they think they stand for

      The problem is they stand for nothing but will defend their right to stand for that nothing no matter the consequences then they’ll blame us for whatever happens next anyway

      Because ingrained hatred has no reason it just exists to feed on itself

      Remove the purveyors of hatred and you remove the reason for its existence

    210. mike cassidy says:

      Now this is what I call interactive cinema!

    211. Bob Mack says:

      Pigeon droppings kills people? There must be dozens of corpses lying in George Sq. I hand feed woodys every day and am still here.

      Unionist propoganda on full blast now. Must be something in the wind.

      Derry bomb. Republicans possibly but more likely Unionists trying to derail hopes of a deal. No doubt somebody will be fitted up by the security services and police who remain predominantly Unionist in N Ireland. I remember Guildford and Birmingham where everybody was assured the real perpetrators were caught only to be cleared years later.

    212. Thepnr says:


      “If the SNP passes the buck and doesn’t stand firm to protect Scotland’s EU Citizenship and Constitutional Sovereignty BEFORE Scotland is Brexited, they better borrow Richard Leonard’s brass neck to come back seeking my vote in the Summer.”

      Do you think anyone actually gives a shit about “your vote”? There is no poster more conceited on Wings than you Breeks, you’re a bam.

      “Vote SNP in the Summer? If they’ve turned a blind eye to Brexit, why the living fk would I want to do that?”

      It is you that are the blind one if you want Independence.

      “I repeat the call… What is the strength of feeling for an appeal to the ECJ requesting guidance whether Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally by Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty?”

      Hahaha absolutely NIL. You live in a wee bubble of your own that believes Scotland can revoke Article 50 unilaterally?

      Fucking deluded, as was the rest of your post and it’s getting worse. 68 days until your head explodes, can’t wait 🙂

    213. Colin Alexander says:

      Re defending the people of Scotland’s sovereignty.

      Whilst youse argue the toss amongst yourselves about it, the “Britnat troll” is the one that’s made an official complaint to the EU seeking to uphold and defens Scotland’s sovereignty.

      If the complaint does not receive a fair examination, are we crowdfunding it to seek a judicial review under Scots Law at the Court of Session or EU law at the ECJ?

      I suspect that I won’t even get a sensible reply from any of the armchair defenders of Scottish sovereignty who maybe spend too much time chattering amongst themselves, instead of doing something more practical.

    214. Thepnr says:

      @Colin Alexander

      Come along to Glasgow on the 24th to give a warm welcome to Ian Murray and Alex Cole-Hamilton as they make their way to give their speeches at the Scotland In Union “Rabbie Burns” dinner at £45 head.

      It will be attended by all the great and the good in Scotland and we will get to say hi 🙂

      Might even get a chance to talk to a few, now that’s practical so take it we can expect you to join us?

    215. Gary45% says:

      Nice One.
      Its high time punters started to get more involved in leaflet dropping etc. I think many think because the SNP is the largest party in Scotland they have endless resources for campaigns etc.
      Unlike the Yoon parties “who hide funds etc” the SNP play to the rules, because the biased media would crucify them at the first opportunity.
      They don’t have a endless pot of money so the usual “foot soldiers” always rise to the challenge, but more members help would be greatly appreciated.
      The 2015 GE was my wife and I first ever leafleting for the party. we delivered approx. 9,000 between us for that one and again in the following snap election.( which Treeza denied would happen).
      It was worth it in the end, looking forward to the next one “the same as the rest of the troops”. (although, more foot soldiers = more leaflets = more people getting the facts) = Independence.
      Tick Tock

    216. Cactus says:

      Exactly SO Dr Jim ~

      “The problem is they stand for nothing but will defend their right to stand for that nothing no matter the consequences then they’ll blame us for whatever happens next anyway

      Because ingrained hatred has no reason it just exists to feed on itself”

      Ye get nothing with The Nothing.

      What IS… The Nothing?:

    217. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thnpr @4.15, i take it im not the only one getting pissed off at Breeks me me me delusional shite ?

    218. Cubby says:

      Jim McIntosh @1.06pm

      “In real life the good guy seldom wins”


      In case you reply I said seldom. Mandela

      A bit of a pint half empty man.

    219. H Scott says:

      ‘Chris Cairns is on holiday’

      In other news, DFS have a sale on.

    220. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I have no idea why AS is stirring the S N P civil war fiction a t the moment and no idea why the Sunday National has facilitated what is actually a wee dog at N

      I note the doo do continues in the media and what we should do is get photos of the doo droppings on the wall of
      Labour HQ at West Regent Street.

    221. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Seems like two of us at least, more news as it breaks.

    222. K1 says:

      Oh god there’s more than yid imagine Thpnr 😉

    223. Ken500 says:

      Being a voter does not give you the right to keep criticising members of a Party who are funding and campaigning so other people can vote for a better governance and a better life for them and others.

      The piper pays the tune.

      It’s a pity some of those constantly criticising don’t get off their backside. To donate, canvass and campaign like others do and show a bit of gratitude. People are sick of the plastic Independistas. Do something useful instead of constant criticising others. Trying to do their best.

    224. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dave Mcewan Hill, perhaps AS is concerned that there are peoplei n the SNP hierachy that agree with Joyce Mcmillan that we should eat cereal for twenty years! Suggest you read Scotland goes pop for some background.

    225. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…perhaps AS is concerned that there are peoplei n the SNP hierachy that agree with Joyce Mcmillan that we should eat cereal for twenty years!”

      Well, from where I’m sitting it seems to me that the SNP are learning how to muddy the waters, keep the BritNats guessing as to what they’re planning. I, for one, am loving it.

    226. Daisy Walker says:

      I am a professional female, almost 50, hard working and intelligent.

      I have been discriminated for my gender, and my intelligence! more times than I can count, so I no longer pay it attention. I’m not alone in this and I count myself very lucky, all things considered.

      I have voted SNP all my voting life, and been a member of the SNP since 2014, I have contributed at local level to the best of my ability, and in monetary terms 100’s of pounds.

      I have donated on every occasion to Wings since finding the site in 2014, and will do so again. Once again 100’s of pounds (and worth every penny).

      When the Orkney 4 put their livelihoods on the line – I was so inspired by their commitment and courage – I raided my savings and donated over £1000 pounds – and I am proud of them, and glad I did so.

      Like nearly everyone here, I felt glad to be able to support Alex Salmond in what I felt was a legal injustice – and did what I could.

      I have put over £750 (which I was happy to do) into 24 x 250 rolls of Gorrilla Tape with the messages ‘ Broken Vow, Brexit Chaos – Yes Now ‘ and ‘Brexit isn’t working – yes now’ – The benefits being they have multiple uses – car bumper stickers, tied to lamp-posts, arm bands on marches. And they fit very discretely into pockets, unlike traditional posters.

      The main idea being to have a real product to show them that they could copy/utilise to their own design. (I was not looking to sell them it in any way).

      I took them to the local SNP meet – where they were dismissed without comment by John Swinney and Pete Wishart.

      I raised with them – that instead of moaning about how biased the BBC is, there were opportunities to utilise the resources we already had, and cover ground not intrinsically GE material,

      Examples being – do what Indyposterboy does, put the posters out on the website and ask members to print them off and show them in their car and house windows.

      It really does not come any more low cost than that.

      SIU – were taken to task for GE spending and – the electoral commission found them to be Not In Breach – as there was no ongoing Indy Ref at the time. This drove a legal precedent horse and cart through any argument that the SNP could not do likewise.

      The union press and politicians decried Baby Boxes so that their benefits would most likely be declined by the very mothers most vulnerable and most in need of them.

      That created an ‘Public Health Notice’ opportunity to put one (2nd hand of course) in the window of every SNP office the length and breadth of the country with pictures of the contents, and a Baby picture competition.

      The Blether In in Forfar – has a flat screen TV (or laptop computer) on in the window 24/7 with constant Myth busters and positive info re Scotland Yes.

      There is no reason why SNP offices cannot do the same, but ensure the information relayed is tailored to their party message.

      I was told that SNP constituency offices are ‘not allowed’ to put anything but the MP’s name above the door and the party colours. I phoned Westminster and was told their are no rules dictating anything of that nature.

      The Harp of the North – that big beautiful bridge – that amazing project that has kept austerities unemployment from hitting central belt Scotland BIG time… its like the SNP can’t forget it quick enough.

      BILLBOARDS aka Out of Home Advertising

      Billboards have Gross Rating Points depending on their locations – 1 – 100. A 50 rating means 50% of the local population will see at least once per day.
      Their construction means Constant 24/7 exposure – high frequency.
      The best Billboards aim to be ‘read’ in 6 seconds – no more, 6 words / or fewer, the rule being ‘show it, don’t say it’. They should get noticed, but not distract and be smart, but not too clever or obscure.
      One way of checking a billboard design is to put it on a business card and hold it at arms length. If it pops its tops, if not, back to redraft.

      In 2015 I did research and spoke to friends about trying to do the above, but it was too much for us. I think it would have cost between £2000 – £3000.

      You definitely need to know what your design is, and book your sites 1 – 2 months in advance.

      One likely stumbling block re Billboards being hired by the SNP – is that the companies themselves will not allow them to.

      And in that event, in the increasingly unlikely event that the SNP actually wants to utilise this form of communication, then they need for EVERY CAR TO BE A BILLBOARD ! and they need to ask people to put up homemade billboards in their gardens. And they need to have Pictorial Posters that Give the Electorate Information, not just a simple slogan.

      Stonger for Scotland just didnae cut it. It converts no-one.

      I found it shocking, and still do, considering one of the reasons I joined the SNP, was that I thought a professional organisation, with considerable experience in the field, would have a joined up, experienced, costed out plan to COMMUNICATE with the parts of the electorate they need to convert.

      I apologise for the bio at the start, and it is not meant as bragging in any way.

      I am deeply sorry if the above information is seen as being disloyal. It is not.

      I am very upset if you think that I am some form of 5th columnist – I am not.

      And I think the term ‘little red hen’ is down right sexist – to whoever it was meant for.

      I am loyal to the independence movement, and the SNP. But the SNP need to do much better in this area. And it does none of us any good to insulate them or ourselves from constructive ideas which can help.

      And for those who would say – it should be done in the confines of the meetings, and in the appropriate manner, etc. Please be assured it was, and it fell on the deafest of deaf ears.

      I no longer go to the meetings, they’ve lost me for good, other than my vote. Wings has first dibs on my donations, biggest bang for buck as the saying goes. And isn’t that telling. The SNP should be embarrassed about that. All their experience and input, and a one man band (all be it – exceptional) out did them during IndyRef1. At the very least it should have inspired them.

      We lost the Labour Party to the British Establishment a long time ago, through blind, uncritical loyalty, and bullying anyone who would try to highlight a weakness, or an area for improved delivery. Can we please not do the same again.

      We are running out of time.

    227. Lenny Hartley says:

      Daisy Walker, sorry you have had issues with the SNP, but thanks for everything you have done, somefolk do appreciate it!

    228. Highland Wifie says:

      My son also works in post production in London. Not because he particularly wants to but, as you say, because that’s where the work is. There are so many young people from this rural area working in London that they could fill a tube train. Well at least one carriage.
      I am so looking forward to the day they all come home and we can start building this country into the vibrant modern society it should be. Why does London get to swallow up our best talent?

    229. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Lenny Hartley.

      Thank you. Many positives from the SNP too in fairness, it is what it is.

      Just not willing to sit back and be called names because constructive (if at times hard hitting) criticism is verboten.

    230. Col says:

      I expect Westminster to try and throw some major hurdles in the way of the SNP’s efforts for another indy vote but this is the time for the SNP in holyrood and Westminster to really stand up and fight with everything they’ve got. If Westminster with it’s English majority tries to step in our way we should simply walk out from Westminster. Return to Scotland and start dictating to our dictators.
      If they try and remove a democratic route for the people of Scotland to choose the form of government we see fit to choose then just tell them as the majority of scotlands elected representatives we no longer agree to Westminster rule. We will hold a referendum in due course to ask the people if they wish to remain governed from Edinburgh or do they wish to return to English rule.

    231. yesindyref2 says:

      @Daisy Walker
      They don’t sell themselves very well, and are one of the unseen YES organisations, but they provided I think it was £8,000 matching funding to Lindsay Bruce for the 200 YES packs going out to YES groups. Here’s some others at the bottome of the page, they really should show more who they support:

      Could be a place to bung a few spare pounds, let them decide where to allocate it.

    232. Lochside says:

      Daisy Walker…hats off to you Lady and to guid auld Breeks. The latter now being roundly abused by a long term contributor, who should know better, and others who know no better.

      The McCartyite faction of ‘Eyeballer’ and ‘troll’ sniffers are killing this site’s diversity with their blind loyalty to the SNP.

      This site is pro Independence. It is not owned or run by the SNP, but by the REV. From early on diversity of opinion was a given.
      Will Podmore was a regular Unionist commentator, who got slaughtered by facts, not abuse.

      Instead we have characters like Witchfinder General Geeo leading the pack of ‘slavering’ ‘pish’ purveyors trying to silence any criticism that is not slavish in its adoration of ‘our leader’ and the ‘party’.

      Well I’m still a member of the SNP, but like the 100,000 others who joined in the last 5 years, it is conditional on them carrying out their duty of protecting Scotland from England’s Gory and Brexit. Like Daisy, I no longer attend meetings for the same reasons.

      If the SNP don’t LEAD instead of relying on the membership and AUOB to do the consciousness raising, then do you really all believe that the majority of that 100,000 will stay onboard and the rest of the unconnected 45% ‘YES’ will automatically vote for Independence ( a mechanism still not fully explained by the SNP leadership) on the back of all the unresolved answers from the REF?

    233. Gary45% says:

      Daisy Walker@6.13
      A big thanks for all work/effort for the “cause”.
      Aye the constituency offices are not allowed to show any political party favouritism. Our local one occasionally gets “sleeper” yoons, media churnalists coming into the office to try and catch the staff out.
      I thought about going into the local Tory office to ask a few questions, but the shame of being seen anywhere near a Tory office is toooo much, also they play hide and seek really well. ie (Never there)

    234. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s about as many views about Independence and how to get there, as there are supporters and voters for Independence, currently close to 1.8 million based on the same turnout as last time.

    235. Thepnr says:


      Their is no “blind loyalty” to the SNP from me.

      Will Podmore who you seem to adore was a Wings troll and is a communist from London as well as a leading Brexiteer. He is as far from “Pro-Independence” as you can get. Are you?

      I’ve never had cause to respond to one of your posts before, as whether I agreed or disagreed with whatever you have written wasn’t ever an issue. Now though you have brought me personally into one of your posts because I disagree with Breeks delusional mutterings. Why do that?

      Maybe you’d be better off at Bella Lochside, where I’m sure a welcome awaits your own ‘slavering’ ‘pish’ as you so aptly put it.

    236. yesindyref2 says:

      We’re also in for one hell of a ride over the next 10 weeks. Time to buckle in, put away the breakables, stock up with essentials and get ready for the ride of a lifetime.

      Not for the faint-hearted!

    237. Ken500 says:

      What else are you going to do?

      Not vote?

    238. Ken500 says:

      Will Podmore is a lecturer with connection to the Labour Party based in London. Gonna vote for him?

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      And if I owned an opinion poll company I’d cancel all leave over the next 8 weeks, and if I didn’t have a client, I’d start a poll anyway from Tuesday to Friday fieldwork, on the basis that when approached by a client I could offer them one off the peg for instant use.


    240. yesindyref2 says:

      Will Podmore was a regular Unionist commentator, who got slaughtered by facts, not abuse.

      I understood that. Quite easy to undersand, basically. Here it is in bold:

      Will Podmore was a regular Unionist commentator, who got slaughtered by facts, not abuse.

      There you go, nearly tea-time 🙂

    241. Capella says:

      @ Daisy Walker – I’ve been a member since 2014 too but, unlike you, I haven’t gone along to many meetings or put forward ideas.

      The SNP is supposed to develop policy through the members getting branches to adopt policy proposals which are then voted on at conference. So John Swinney and Pete Wishart shouldn’t have any more say than you about how to communicate with the public.

      However, I do realise that the reality may fall well short of the ideal.
      Do you think it would be possible to change this at branch level and get conference to vote for a communication strategy which takes into account that the normal channels in the MSM are not our friends and so alternative methods must be developed?

    242. ronnie anderson says:

      Daisy Walker all credit to U Daisy that you to a idea forward ie messages on hazard tape & funded it yourself & Yes your correct we all have home printers & can do more in getting leaflets printed .

    243. ronnie anderson says:

      Daisy brain no engaging with fingers lol.

    244. Bill Hume says:

      Oh Jings, it’s hard work this being a supporter of Scottish independence, so here’s a wee hint as to making it a bit easier.
      Don’t post anything on Wings which does not further the cause of Scottish independence.
      That does not mean you can’t disagree with other posters here, but…….just pause before posting and consider…..will this FURTHER that which we all wish for, or will it make it a more uphill struggle?

    245. Gary says:

      You couldn’t make it up!

      But I’m so glad you report it here as there’s NO chance of the BBC ever reporting on it! I’ve had a month long complaint saga with the BBC on their failure to report the No Confidence Motion tabled by the SNP and others.

      If they DID report it, I imagine there would be a LOT of unhappy Labour voters, and the BBC wouldn’t like that at all…

    246. Colin Alexander says:


      Thanks for the offer but, I have prior commitments. Looking forward to hear how you got on.

      Here’s something you could put to them: Did it make you proud of the Union when the unelected Lords killed the Continuity Bill?

    247. Ken500 says:

      What do you think the SNP Reps are trying to do but save the electorate from Brexit and and the rest. That is what they are doing every day Goodness help them in the cess pit. That is exactly what they are doing, They need support no constant criticism all the time.

      ‘Oh look someone hasn’t put up so billboard’ etc. If people want to put up billboards go and raise the money and do it. Most SNP members are knocking their pan in. Give support all the time. Go out of their way to contribute, donate, fund , deliver and canvass. That is why the SNP is so successful. Give some support and gratitude not attack other members which is not in the menbership rules. It is solidarity that has got the SNP where it is. It could go with a bit more help from others.

      People are sick of the constant criticism. Like the ‘SNP’ (members) have a disease or something. They are ordinary people who are doing what they can for their children, their grandchildren and others. There need some help not constant crapping about the ‘SNP’. There is no alternative. Criticise all you like. It is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. The efforts might be better spent against the opposition. There is enough of them.

      There are plenty of channels within the Party to change policies etc. The members vote on every subject at the Conference and other opportunities. Nothing is always perfect but they are doing the best they can do. The ones who are attending the ‘boring’ meetings are keeping the organisation going, as required by Law. People have got two hour time, once every two or three months to try and save the world. It is a question of priorities.

    248. Arthur Thomson says:

      Daisy Walker @ 6.13pm

      It is not disloyal to be constructively critical.

      No-one on here who genuinely supports independence will view your comments as being other than a positive contribution.

      We are big enough to cope with frank sharing of opinions and experiences. If unionists find succour in our apparent differences they will soon enough discover that they are evidence of our strength through diversity not our weakness.

      As someone who is quick to defend the SNP, I am disappointed that you have had the negative responses you describe in your dealings with the Party. You have my respect that you are obviously determined not to allow the failings of some elements of our independence movement to distract you from our common purpose. With people like you on our side we are going to win come what may.

    249. Bobp says:

      Bob mack 4.07pm. Exactly, what reason would republicans/nationalists have in ulster to forment unrest when polls indicate a united ireland is preferable to a hard brexit. There’s dirty work afoot here. And Scotland can expect this sort of black unionist propaganda sh*** when we go full ahead for indy.

    250. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@7.31pm

      Good post. No SNP baad. Turning over a new leaf?

    251. Ken500 says:

      A ‘little red hen’ is unisex. Just like huff and puff blow the house down. Wolves and pigs.

    252. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Capella,

      You make a good point, but don’t you think as the third largest political party in the UK – they should already have a communications strategy – Billboards being just one part.

      They used to do a Newsletter 2011ish – and it no longer existed in this area until members really, really pushed for it – and by pushing I mean going out and publishing it themselves.

      It really is and should be their bread and butter.

      I think that boat has gone now. As I say pre-booking Billboards, poster design and approval – all takes time – and the permission of the Billboard companies.

      What is do-able now, without the permission of anyone, is a poster in the car window, or house window, and if they can manage, if their garden is front facing – get the local yes group to assist and put up a home made billboard.

      I can’t recommend IndyPosterBoy highly enough – I’m sure he could help with advice if needed.

      Just to clarify one point – Westminster when I contacted them confirmed

      THERE ARE NO RULES TO PREVENT Constituency Office windows having posters in them. There is an unwritten acceptance that only the name of the MP will go above, as they are there to serve all in the community.

      If there is concern that that is an issue – box clever – have a great big beautiful poster of the Harp of the North in the window – with no text.
      Show the Baby Box – Health notice reasons.
      Show a big beautiful Mountain – that’s not Welsh.

      Show the map of the UK – that includes Scotland’s territorial waters!!!! Make it big, make it accurate, make it beautiful and bold – and they can’t touch you for it – it will simply exude confidence about Scotland.

      And if they complain – let them – I mean really, what are they going to do about it.

    253. Sarah says:

      @ Daisy Walker: I always read your posts as I know they will contain some useful ideas. I didn’t realise who Ken500 was reacting to but I’m sure it couldn’t be to people like yourself.

      The strain is showing, I think! Desperate times for so many, and all caused by Westminster. Unbelievable.

      All we can do is carry on doing our various pieces of work to get ideas and information across, and write to our SNP MP/MSP with our thoughts so they know the feelings. Mind you my MP is Ian Blackford so he probably can’t spend too much time listening to me!!

    254. Daisy Walker says:


      ‘Criticise all you like. It is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. The efforts might be better spent against the opposition. There is enough of them.’

      I do not like criticising. My efforts have been aimed at improving information to our electorate to get them from no to yes – and unfortunately there are enough of them still.

      Instead of seeing it as me ‘having a go’, can I respectfully request you have a look at some of the suggestions within and see if any of them might be useable and assist in your area.

      ‘little red hen is unisex’ – Good answer Ken, people will form their own opinions no doubt.

    255. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Cubby

      Ta. I tell it how I see it.

      I agree with the SNP 100% when they say:

      the best choice for Scotland is independence.

    256. yesindyref2 says:

      “If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?”

      UK series from Dec to now eliminiating DKs in %, if there’s a 2nd EU Ref:

      Remain 50 52 51 55 54 56 52 56 55
      Leave- – 50 48 49 45 46 44 48 44 45

      The Herald is going with “Delay Brexit”

      Others are going with cancel Brexit, which is increasing.

      Scotland is way higher on Remain of course. The SNP cover all three options. They’re on the side of the angels.

      Many said it wouldn’t happen till people felt Brexit for themselves, well, it’s all happening now, and guess what, even the Beeb are making the case with “Shortage of painkillers already” news.

      My guess is the SNP are happily letting everyone else, including the nutcases in SiU, make the case for Indy. Check out btl on forums like the Herald and increasingly the National. I often leave them to it with a smirk on my face.

      They funny 🙂

      They desperate.

    257. Proud Cybernat says:


      Sam Coates Times


      Theresa May told cabinet on this evening’s conference call the plan is to get something the Tories and DUP will support by changing or removing the backstop

      – RIP the cross party consensus approach?

      – Brace for EU/Irish reaction

      They really DO want a No-Deal Brexit, don’t they?

    258. Macart says:

      ‘In this country we have a very clear constitutional settlement’ Liam Fox


      Here’s me thinking that in the UK we have no fixed settlement and that when results don’t suit UKgov for instance? (see under continuity bill or Sewell convention) They throw their ‘settlement’ in the bin and make one up to suit.

      Mr Fox has a very selective memory. Apparently he’s a democrat now t’boot, which’ll be news to anyone who’s basically not a Tory. (shrugs)

    259. Petra says:

      Spot on Ken500 (7:33pm) …………..

      And for those who don’t want to attend regular meetings or know where / who to donate their time / money to there are other options all of which are focusing on “communicating”, such as:-

    260. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Proud Cybernat: Pravdasound4 has been pushing the line “If only we could get rid of the backstop, Treeza’s deal would go through” regularly last week, with various Tory MPs wheeled on to echo this impossible idea.

      This is a real red line for the EU and any sentient Tory knows this, so a) the Brexiteers can blame any resulting no deal on the darned foreigners and b) yes, I think this has been the plan all along, whether anyone has let Treeza in on it or not.

      Dead Woman Walking doesn’t cover it.

    261. geeo says:

      Cubby @7.44pm

      Nah, coco goes full on siu style SNP BAD for a wee while, then he sobers up and ‘forgets’ such postings, or is so wrapped up in his narcissism he actually believes we never noticed his anti indy/SNP rants.

      New leaf my bahookie.

    262. Jim McIntosh says:


      So you’re telling people what they’ve the “right” to say on an Internet forum without knowing anything about them? You probably don’t even see the irony.

      FYI although I’m not a member of any political party I was a count agent at IndRef, contribute annually to Wings and have the badges and woolly hats to prove it, I subscribe to iScot magazine every year and have donated to WGD, Berthan Pete and the Orkney 4 amongst others.

      But you just carry on telling me how I should be fighting for independence, by keeping my mouth shut.

    263. Graeme says:

      Lochside says:
      20 January, 2019 at 6:46 pm

      The McCartyite faction of ‘Eyeballer’ and ‘troll’ sniffers are killing this site’s diversity with their blind loyalty to the SNP.

      I’m so glad you said that, never a truer word said

    264. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 20 January, 2019 at 1:22 pm:

      ” … On 6 March 2017, General Motors (American) and Groupe PSA (French)announced their agreement that PSA will buy GM’s Vauxhall and Opel subsidiaries in a deal worth €2.2 billion.”

      Thanks for the correction, Scot, but my point was Vauxhall weren’t British in the first place. Anymore than Ford Dagenham were or for that matter any more than the London Labour in Scotland are Scottish Labour.

      Then there is the guy upthread who claims that The United Kingdom is, “A”, monarchy. It isn’t, “A”, monarchy it is two monarchies and his second claim is also wrong. Only one Kingdom delegated it’s monarchical sovereignty to the Westminster Parliament.

      Scotland didn’t have a sovereign monarchy when the Treaty of Union was signed and they had, centuries before, made their people, not either the monarch or the parliament legally sovereign.

      The proof being that Scots law is still independent and under that Rule of Law the people are still sovereign.

      Which is why, when we win an independence referendum, we have the legal right to simple declare the United Kingdom ended and we can quote the Treaty of Union as our evidence in the international courts as it is a live treaty, (and if Westminster claims it isn’t so, then there isn’t a legal United Kingdom without the Treaty of Union.

      Westminster has been twisting the meanings of words to enforce Westminster domination since before 1707 and the Scottish voters, as that comment upthread proves. Just take Westminster’s twisted words as being correct – they aren’t.

      I’ve been pointing out that the claim the United Kingdom doesn’t have a written Constitution is a downright lie. The Union was, “Constituted”, by the Treaty of Union and is thus a written constitution.

      I wonder how many thousands of Scots I’ve heard in my 80 odd years make that claim about no written Constitution?

    265. Sarah says:

      As for billboards, the Rev had adverts in the Glasgow Underground [briefly]. I wonder how much that costs?

      And can anyone be a billboard company? So instead of having to book a space, the company [e.g. SNP, Yes group or whatever] owned the sites.

    266. Ken500 says:

      There are enough assistance and enough suggestions in the area.

      The point is putting up billboards. If the expense is necessary now. Or in a Campaign. There are no funds for both. The members would vote and it would be agreed. It is better to put the billboards up in a campaign. That is when there would be the most need. A vote would be taken and the decision made by the members. The SNP is not a bottomless fund. Or a magic money tree. Unfortunately.

      The unionists parties are funded by banks, hedge funds, trade unions etc. Often flush with money of interest groups and lobbyists. That is not the case with the SNP mainly funded by the members, That is a fact. Many people do not want to join political parties. In the case of the SNP people feel they have to. They have to do something to try and build a better society for obvious reasons. Just look at the opposition.

      If other people want to do some other things. It is up to them.

      There are set rules for campaigns dictated to be Law. There are rules behaviours, dictated by Law and Party rules. What is permissible to say etc. Something might be defamable. Not permissible by Law or they could be sued. Decided by the members and elrcted reps. That is why some of the elected members with experience of campaigns know what is permissible, They have the experience. People learn from each other and pass on information.

      In campaigns people appear that have never been available before because of work etc. They take time off and appear from nowhere. They have the experience of organising. They have been doing it for years. They make things operate like a well oiled machine. Sort out things with total competence. Everyone joins in and does what they can, The increase in members is a total bonus. Everying is done totally quicker than before. Thanks to everyone.

      Yes definitely there is a need for more support. Calling out for anyone willing to make an effort. It still remains one person just has to convince another. That is happening. Thank goodness,

    267. Ken500 says:

      No one told you to ‘keep your mouth shut’. In fact the reply was exactly because you were having your say. So does everyone else. The point is the constant criticism of the SNP and members doing their best is not helpful to Independence and can be quite unnecessary. If not hurtful and self harming.

      The SNP should be doing this. The SNP should be doing that. They are people doing the best they can, in difficult circumstances. They need a bit of support not constant criticism.

    268. Ken500 says:

      The irony is plain to see.

    269. yesindyref2 says:


    270. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 20 January, 2019 at 5:03 pm:

      ! … Thnpr @4.15, i take it im not the only one getting pissed off at Breeks me me me delusional shite ?”

      Of course you are not alone. I’ve been pointing out for quite a while now that there is an ever more desperate, anti-SNP/SG/Nicola faction here on Wings.

      The more support grows for independence the more strident they become. Yet every one of them claims to support and vote for independence. Thing is that the SNP works from the bottom up and neither the elected members or the paid party officials can unilaterally make of change the party policies.

      It simply cannot be done other than by the delegates of the rank and file members at national conference. thus anyone who is not a party member who is critical of the party have a very easy and open way to influence party policy.

      They cannot do so from the outside looking in but only via a membership card and by taking their objections to a branch meeting, (along with a seconder of course). They most certainly are not going to change anything from posing anti-party pish on Wings or other internet blogs.

      Some of them are more subtle than others but they are all easy to identify.

    271. Cubby says:

      Petra @9.09 pm

      Excellent post.

    272. yesindyref2 says:

      Wings ≠ SNP

      Anyways, on that theme:

      Gives in return a wondrous yearn
      Of a promise almost seen
      Live hand-in-hand
      And together we’ll stand

      On the threshold of a dream….

    273. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Daisy Walker, as a member of the SNP, is a constituent part of the SNP.

      So am I.

      I can get her points. I haven’t been to a branch meeting for over a year, because most of the time was taken up with officers’ reports and there was no discussion about how to take forward the campaign for independence.

      I found my time was more productive helping Ronnie with the WOS stall at rallies.

      I still pay my SNP monthly membership direct debit though and will continue to vote for them/us.

    274. Cubby says:


      Don’t worry I was being facetious.

      There is a difference between posters who post some criticisms with the best of intentions and those who constantly post criticisms of the SNP/ independence movement with the worst of intentions. It’s all about what motivates their comments.

    275. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers @8.43pm

      I have nothing but admiration for your determination, patience and persistence in posting so often the key historical information. Keep on posting and telling those who get it wrong that they are talking pish or balderdash. Invaluable service you are providing.

    276. Capella says:

      Getting the message out there is certainly an issue and the MSM is the enemy of the SNP and will do everything possible to spoil our chance of achieving independence.

      Spoiling life chances is something that the Westminster oligarchs have perfected everywhere in the world where their evil influence has reached. We know their methods.

      But by some miracle the SNP is managing to inspire half of the population of Scotland to seek a better life in a democratic, fair society. This can only be achieved if we are free of Westminster’s corrupt influence. The political elite in London, and their lackeys in Scotland, are incapable of delivering a fair and just society. There is too much corruption, greed and seething anger built into Westminster’s structures.

      So with or without billboards, the message is getting out there. No doubt with a “fair and balanced” media, the vote for independence would be 80 percent. But fair and balanced are not in Westminster’s dictionary.

      The recent poll sub sample by YouGov puts support for the SNP at 47% and suggests it is surging as BREXIT draws near. With all the usual caveats about subsamples, it is an endorsement of the policy so far.

    277. Dr Jim says:

      It takes a huge amount of money to run and fund a political party especially one like the SNP who only have the population of Scotland to draw on and of course without Lords or Ladies or Barons or Kings and Queens and Earls chucking money at them in order to produce PPBs, Leaflets, party offices, local branches and all the costs that that incurs

      Just a few short years ago the party had barely nothing in terms of finance to fight against the power of Labour Tory and yes even the Liberal Democrats so indeed it’s true many of the members aren’t as active in the campaigning department as some would hope but that again could be for a variety of reasons, but what the members are good at, all of them…….

      Is paying for it or the SNP wouldn’t exist at all and then some folk wouldn’t be able to moan about what they’re not doing enough of because they wouldn’t be doing anything at all would they and there would be no Independence movement either

      So when you next see a leaflet, PPB, branch office, helicopter for rapid transport, court case and QCs to go with them fighting for legal rights and many other things spare a thought for the SNP members who physically can’t go out and leaflet drop because they’re wheelchair bound or too elderly or have carer duties for their children or maybe too afraid to be spat on and sworn at by Unionist thugs on doorsteps or someone like me who was attacked by two young Unionist thugs with a knife and I ended up the one being charged with assault for defending myself (later dropped because of the political implication should it be reported in the newspaper that a pensioner delivering SNP leaflets was attacked by two Labour supporting thugs and I skelped their arses with one ending up in hospital, now that doesn’t make for the kind of news the establishment wants)

      Sometimes things are not always as they appear at first and anxiousness can sometimes cause demands for quicker and more forthright action, but also sometimes slowly slowly catchee monkey and the SNP can’t always tell us what they’re doing or planning for fear of everybody else knowing that too, and everything the SNP does has to be legal at all times because they are the most scrutinised political party on earth with every weapon in the armoury of the British state trained on them at all times

      I’m a member of the SNP for a reason and my few pounds a month plus my one off donations like all members of the SNP helps to pay for everything or we would have NO SNP and whether you agree or not, I believe NO SNP, NO Independence

    278. yesindyref2 says:

      Moody Blues seems very appropriate tonight

      “Why do we never get an answer
      When we’re knocking at the door?”

      “And he saw magnificent perfection
      Whereon, he thought of himself in balance
      And he knew he was”

      “Just open your mind
      And you will find
      The way it’s always been

      Just open your heart
      And that’s a start”

      Cactus knows 🙂

    279. Merkin Scot says:

      Ok what is happening is that, “due to uncertainty” a period of Temporary Measures will be undertaken”.

    280. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@8.02pm

      “Ta, I tell it how I see it”. You most certainly do. Pity that about 99% of the time it’s SNP baaad. Most Britnat papers are SNP baaadd about 99 % of the time. Just an unfortunate coincidence is it.

      I wonder if you ” support a football/ rugby team” do you shout baaaad at them all the time and claim to be a supporter. Most football/rugby teams would be happy to do without your type of support.

    281. Cubby says:


      I write to my MP Masterton Tory MP East Renfrewshire reminding him East Ren voted 75% remain highest in UK for remain I believe and Scotland voted 62/38 remain as well but he is voting for Mays deal to take us out. No reply so far. I think he knows my feelings alright. Slimy Britnat.

    282. Sarah says:

      Cubby – lol!

    283. So T May is going to bring a deal which has removed enough of the backstop to get the DUP on board – so we are led to believe – and get enough rebels to back her deal.

      But we’ve also been told that various Ministers are preparing for a snap GE ( on feb 28th) –

      you don’t think she would go for both scenarios?

      firstly get the DUP support, get her deal through, then call a snap GE supposedly to enhance her standing as she goes into the trade negotiations, win with a much bigger majority but in the meantime the DUP lose out, result -T May no longer reliant on the DUP and can agree what she wants with the EU including reneging on re-inserting a temporary backstop.

      Or is this just a silly scenario?

    284. Petra says:

      BBC news: It looks as though Big T’s announcement tomorrow will be as follows:- “Plan B is the same as Plan A.” There’s a surprise.

      And four men arrested in relation to the Londonderry car bombing. That was quick! Seemingly someone phoned West Midlands Samaritons who contacted the West Midlands Police. This gave NIrish Police 15 minutes to clear the area.

    285. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 20:21,

      Not just that. We’re still getting speeches by the like of Bozo Bojo saying that the EU needs the UK money so it will eventually have to cave in to UK demands.

      This kind of delusional neo-imperial exceptionalism dies hard with many English Tories, and like some kind of wierd religious cult they are leading their equally-deluded followers to a self-actuated disaster.

      And the rest of us with them.

      Unless we do something effective about it pretty damn fast.

      Despite (or because of?) all that, some still appear to tarry in the mogadonland of the likes of Robin McAlpine, who stands out in today’s paper like a festering sore thumb as not expecting an IR2 until 2021, a year further delayed than his previous prognostications. The biggest crisis in British history, to be passed by as if it hadn’t happened. Or somehow didn’t matter.

      Some may sneer at breeks‘ sense of urgency, but to me anyway that represents a much more realistic appraisal of the situation than sleepwalking à la McAlpine.

      Good to note from the same edition that AS at least seems to share that sense of history and urgency.

    286. TJenny says:

      From the telegraph:

      ‘Exclusive: Theresa May mulls amending Good Friday Agreement to get her Brexit deal past MPs’.

      I mean how on earth does she think she can unilateraly change an international treaty like the GFA to appeaase the DUP?

      Teresa May is dangerously delusional. Hands up who thinks the bomb in Derry was not IRA/Republicans and more DUP/MI5 false flag?

      With TM and the DUP we really are walking with dinosaurs. ffs.

      If you don’t already follow The Irish Border @BorderIrish on twitter, you should, it’s witty, pithy and knocks the PM’s delusions for 6.

    287. Dr Jim says:

      If Nicola Sturgeon gets her tactics right she will be the biggest Scottish heroine even bigger than Wallace and the Bruce stuck together, if she gets them wrong she’ll be the biggest villain ever to be remembered in Scottish history and crashing the SNP into oblivion into the bargain

      Phew!…Anybody else want the job?

    288. Daisy Walker says:

      I have a positive suggestion, and I hope it is seen in that light.

      Can the SNP Executive Management inform us

      they intend to put up a certain amount of Billboards, with such and such poster/s, and they have costed it and require x amount of money Fundraised in order to achieve it by a set date.

      If they do that, it will get funded, and I will be first in the que to put some money in the tin.

      This can and most certainly would be achievable.

      If they have looked at doing this and been refused the hires by the companies that own the Billboards or print the posters – could they let us know that.

      If they are not willing to do this, could they please explain their reasons.

      A well positioned Billboard works 24/7 and can reach a very large proportion of the public.

      We need to reach our pensioners – those very people who’s pensions have just been hacked again – and for those – in Scotland – going onto UC instead of their pension because their partner is a bit younger and still working – its a double hit – they won’t get winter fuel allowance, and its colder here in Scotland than in England.

      A well placed Billboard with a poster reflecting this info, and that Brexit means goodbye NHS – on the local bus route, is likely to reach them, in ways social media will not.

      Or we can moan about the BBC Bias yet again.

      The above is not a hit at all the hard working volunteers in the SNP – it is not even a complaint about what the SNP have done so far. It is a reasonable request, and any reasonable member – or Yes Supporter – would be reassured of an answer.

      And maybe, just maybe, if the bosses at the SNP think that it is too expensive, that money is the block, maybe this discussion will give them the motivation to ask, to set up the crowdfunder – I have no doubt it would be fully funded in days.

      Come on folks – what’s not to like.

    289. geeo says:


      Of course i knew that…we are apparently the same person, remember…!!

    290. Ghillie says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 10.34 pm

      Not a silly scenario at all.

      If TM wins a snap GE then she can strut about the place saying look at me, I’m the king.

      Or if she loses, she is off the hook and can tootle off on her holidays.

    291. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 22:34,

      There doesn’t seem to be much logic in that. (But this is politics, OK. =grin=)


      If May manages to get the DUP on board over the backstop, why would she go for an election? She would have what she wants already, at least in the short term.

      She might well want to follow your logic, but only after E-Day and the dirty deed is done. In the meantime, she might just possibly hope to win over the DUP and her Europhobe rebels, just like Gove already, by convincing them that otherwise there could well be an EURef2 which could easily cancel the whole business. “Do you feel lucky, punks?…”

      The only other reason she might go for a UKGE is if she gets so thoroughly fed up of the whole intractable stalemate that she prefers to throw the chicken bones up in the air to see where they land, win or lose. Banking on being able to watch Corbyn crumble as his own Euro-prevarications are exposed to the full heat and glare of the media spotlight. Or to hand over the whole mess to Labour so they get the eventual blame, I suppose.

      But as I read her, she is not the quitting kind, and is already in her present predicament by mistakenly thinking she could strengthen her position via an election. So while preparations may have to be made just to cover all the bases, I don’t see it actually happening before April.

      After then, could well be…

    292. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      “Some may sneer at breeks‘ sense of urgency”

      There’s a difference between a “sense of urgency” from that which is realistically achievable.

      Unilaterally invoking Article 50 by Scotland is not realistic and you don’t need the ECJ to point that out surely? It’s absolutely fine to have such beliefs, not everybody else has to agree with them and that’s also absolutely fine.

      The real question though is if in 68 days time we do leave the EU will the SNP be responsible for that according to some posters? A reminder of what Breeks actually said.

      If the SNP passes the buck and doesn’t stand firm to protect Scotland’s EU Citizenship and Constitutional Sovereignty BEFORE Scotland is Brexited, they better borrow Richard Leonard’s brass neck to come back seeking my vote in the Summer.”

      How many others believe that the SNP have not done everything they could to avoid Brexit and stood firm? Or believe that if it does happen then they “the SNP” must be responsible? Totally ridiculous idea other than on Wings it seems.

      This is NOT of the SNP’s choosing, point the finger of blame where it is due and that is at the Tories. No one else.

    293. Ghillie says:

      Daisy Walker @ 10.59 pm

      Good idea!

      The messages would have to be very clear and effectively hard hitting.

      Collin Dunn on twitter has some good images already.

      Indy Scotland = We Decide =)

    294. manandboy says:

      2019 – YEAR OF CHANGE.

    295. geeo says:

      Latest ‘infection’ hits Wings.

      Hi graeme, meeting up with old chums huh ?

      Graeme says:

      20 January, 2019 at 8:42 pm

      Lochside says:
      20 January, 2019 at 6:46 pm

      The McCartyite faction of ‘Eyeballer’ and ‘troll’ sniffers are killing this site’s diversity with their blind loyalty to the SNP.

      I’m so glad you said that, never a truer word said

      I very much doubt anyone on here is ‘blindly loyal’ to the SNP and this place is very diverse indeed, but united behind common cause. I bet there are plenty would not vote SNP in an indy Scotland as well.

      On here we have an awful lot of politically savvy people, who are not scared to question the SNP/Scotsgov if and when the feel the need.

      What we (vastly, mostly) have is faith and trust in the SNP Scotsgov to deliver an indyref.

      Note: NOT delivering independence.

      The SNP cannot deliver independence for Scotland, only us, the Legally Sovereign People of Scotland can do that.

      The SNP delivered in 2014, it was US the People, who let THEM down by voting No.

      Yet, despite that, they kept faith in us to deliver the next time, and deliver we must.

      Certain people come on here bad mouthing the SNP and threaten to withdraw support if they do not deliver independence, an independence they cannot deliver, remember, at the same time as that very same SNP/Scotsgov have led us back to the very brink of an indyref announcement “in the next few weeks”.

      It is difficult to imagine any other reason for such people acting as they do, other than them not actually being on the indy bus journey, other than to grab the wheel and drive us off the road.

    296. Craig P says:

      >>Daisy Walker at 6.13pm discussing SNP outreach

      That is one of the most interesting and insightful posts I have seen for a long time.

      The SNP was an electoral winning machine in 2007 with its Activate software (collecting the names and addresses of supporters and convertibles when Labour had no clue where there support was) but it stood still for too long and has been overtaken by big spending neoliberals and their dodgy – but effective – data mining.

      The SNP’s advantage lies in its large party base, and it could leverage it in the same was as the Israeli government helps the Jewish diaspora argue an Israeli government viewpoint on social media. It provides arguments and rebuttals to common anti-zionist arguments and training to social media activists. (Whether you agree with the arguments or not, it is an effective approach.) The SNP could do the same. Maybe it does, I’m not a member. Anyway, don’t think the UK government isn’t spending our tax against us on their own social media units.

      As for what we could do. We’ve had the Wee Blue Book (which anecdotally, swayed more people than all the official Yes propaganda put together in the last few weeks before the Indy ref) and the Wee Black Book. Personally I’d like to see a ‘Wee Gold Book’ describing how Scotland might flourish with independence – indyposterboy and Business for Scotland have created some cracking graphics that could form the basis of this. Time to go on the offensive.

      The Wee Blue Book’s message was that countries run their own affairs, and that Scotland was a country in its own right, QED. The Wee Gold Book can show that Scotland is a not just a country but a *propserous* country like it’s northern Europeans neighbours, but is being held back by its current financial and political arrangements. Let the SIU scare the electorate with the ‘UK single market’ idea: Scotland having 4 times as much trade to rUK than it does to EU. Sounds a lot, but did you know that when Ireland was in the UK its trade was 80% with the rest of the UK and it’s GDP per head lower? Today only 11% of its exports by value are to the UK and it has a higher GDP per head than the Brits.

      What’s to stop Scotland doing the same?

    297. geeo says:

      @Daisy Walker.


      Uk Independence from the European UNION = GOOD

      Scottish independence from the Uk UNION = BAD

      Vote Yes: Only an independent Scots government will act in our best interests.

    298. Cubby says:

      Geeo@11.02 pm

      How could I forget that – it is blindingly obvious we are, of course, the same person – LOL

    299. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s little point in bashing Breeks for saying basically, what was actually in the SNP Manifesto for 2017, and I quote:

      Scotland’s choice
      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be.

      Taking that last sentence, if the SNP as Government allow Brexit to simply be imposed on Scotland, without calling Indy Ref 2, then they have betrayed the 977,569 who voted for them in the General Election, by denying us our choice.

      There’s no ambiguity in that sentence from their manifesto. None.

    300. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @10.48pm

      I agree with the first part of your post but to call Sturgeon,if she gets it wrong, a villain surely is unfair unless you suspect some treacherous motives. People get things wrong – it happens. Is Salmond a villain for not winning in 2014 – I don’t think so. Britnats hate him – says it all really.

      If we lose another ref we do not just give up.

    301. Thepnr says:

      This is too difficult to understand. Scotland will only become Independent when the majority of people living in Scotland decide it should be so.

      Our best chance of doing that then is to encourage those not yet convinced to see things as we do. Slagging off the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon is the exact opposite of what is actually required in order to win next time around. Don’t you think?

      So why will some still persist in doing it then?

      Maybe they don’t really want us to win, ever thought of that?

    302. Thepnr says:


      “Taking that last sentence, if the SNP as Government allow Brexit to simply be imposed on Scotland”

      How pathetic is that?

      “At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.”

      We are NOT yet at the end of the Brexit process, Scotland will have a choice about our future. Lost for words to be honest.

    303. boris says:

      Financing of the £110m SC4 Welsh channel was transferred to the BBC by the Westmnister government regularizing broadcasting finance. Nice one £100m to Wales and £4m to Scotland. Hardly fair to Scotland

    304. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @11.43pm

      “There’s no ambiguity in that last sentence . None.” TRUE but there is ambiguity in the previous sentence.

      “………the final terms of the deal are known, …….”. Exactly what deal – the withdrawal agreement or the ongoing trade deal.

      If it is the ongoing trade deal then only a no deal Brexit will tell us that any time soon. It there is a withdrawal agreement deal plus political declaration as per Mays deal then it can be argued that only after the negotiations have been concluded will the “final terms of the deal be concluded” and that could be some time away in the future.

      In summary, if you want a water tight Scotgov guarantee of Indyref2 soon then hope for a no deal Brexit.

      My prediction of no deal Brexit, United Ireland, Independent Scotland still has legs and if anything gaining strength.

    305. Petra says:

      @ Daisy at 10:59pm …. “Billboards.”

      Daisy you should check out InformScotland: the group that fundraised previously to erect billboards.

      Additionally you could check out the Scottish Independence Convention (SIC) link that I posted earlier tonight. They have been trying to raise money for the IndyRef2 campaign and have reached the total of £100,000 of their £180,000 target.

      Meanwhile they have now, due to this money, contracted Tangent Graphics to take the IndyRef2 campaign forward – with a focus on “public communications”.

      I also posted a SIC survey (thisisit) on here a few weeks ago whereby interested parties could take part by proferring their ideas. Maybe you missed it?

      I reckon if anyone is keen, like you and I, to get the “word out there” donating to SIC (or even makes sense.

      I can see how desperate you are Daisy, like most of us on here, about combatting media lies and in particular their omissions, but take heart that the situation is in hand. Meanwhile as you say people should think of putting placards and posters in their gardens and cars. It doesn’t cost much and can be really effective. There’s also Stu and his wee blue book (or whatever) which should push us right over the 50% mark. His fundraiser will no doubt be advertised on here soon and when it is we should back him to the hilt – MORE so than ever as, as SIC would say “THIS IS IT.”

    306. Thepnr says:


      Simple question for yeh.

      How can the SNP NOT “allow Brexit to happen?”

      The floor is all yours but I reckon you’ll find it difficult to give an answer when you, just like Breeks are looking for the SNP to do something that is NOT within their power.

      I want to win the lottery this week and if I don’t then I’ll never vote SNP again because they’re useless!

    307. Petra says:

      @ Thepnr at 11:32pm ….

      Spot on. What is it with people on here today / tonight?

      Maybe they should think of reposting the fact / links that highlight that Nicola Sturgeon has stated that she’ll make an announcement about IndyRef2 within the next few weeks, even if an extension to A50 is implemented (the latter which surprises me). No instead of that it’s SNP Baad posts with others on here jumping onto the bandwagon. Well seeing that some people are now suffering from bouts of nervous diarrhoea as they can see that Scotland is on the road to Freedom. Hard to take folks? Well too Baaad.

    308. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 23:12:

      There’s a difference between a “sense of urgency” from that which is realistically achievable.

      We need both, surely? It’s the unsettling suspicion that for some, the latter is merely a lame excuse for denying any need for the former, as McAlpine and Macmillan both obviously have in spades, but others also appear to have in more diluted form.

      I don’t especially agree with the particular prescription you quoted, but still have the feeling that we are – so far, at least – missing a constitutional trick or two, perhaps out of the mistaken belief that it’s all just hoary academic theory, to be dismissed out of hand when in fact it could be a potentional rallying point, if merely one of several. But the more of these which put us on the front foot, instead of the back foot, the better. To have trust that a majority of people, when the issues are properly aired, will respond, and respond positively.

      What we need right soon IMO is an end to trying to massage a situation almost wholly outside our control, and instead engineer a full-blown confrontation to wake up everyone to the unpleasant realities of our current powerless condition.

      Of course one can’t be condemnatory of the SG right now because there are still too many “balls up in the air”, and we will all surely enthusiastically acclaim the crucial moves when they do come, but in the meantime it is quite right and proper for any genuine supporter of independence to make clear that the stakes couldn’t be higher, with expectations to match.

      There has unfortunately been enough shilly-shallying by people who ought to know better – positively inviting the quite unnecessary distraction and further electoral burden of another diversionary UKGE, for another example – to give rise to reasonable concerns about motivation and sound judgement. And one has a right and a duty to raise such legitimate concerns, even if it irritates some.

      I continue to hope and believe that in a very short time now such concerns (over the SG at least) will be shown to be largely unwarranted, but we shall see.

    309. Cubby says:

      Geeo@ 11.33pm

      Geeo billboard = bad – bloody hell talking to myself again. Even worse arguing against myself. Help.

    310. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Much of your post makes a lot of sense at least to my eyes, in particular:

      almost wholly outside our control, and instead engineer a full-blown confrontation to wake up everyone to the unpleasant realities of our current powerless condition.”

      Of course it is outwith “our” control but the only thing that is in our control is to “wake up everyone” as to this reality. Moaning over and over about the SNP just doesn’t do that.

      The SNP are the wagon we are all riding on in the hope they will take us to where we want to get to. Berating the driver of that wagon or complaining about the habits of other passengers doesn’t make for a comfortable journey.

      Divided we fall. Simple enough for anyone to understand.

    311. geeo says:

      @Daisy Walker.


      According to the Westminster Tory Government:

      Uk Independence from the European UNION = GOOD

      Scottish independence from the Uk UNION = BAD

      Vote Yes: Only an independent Scots government will act in our best interests.


    312. geeo says:

      @Cubby, shut it me…!! (Har)

    313. Cubby says:


      Geeo (or is it me) billboard = much better now. LOL praising myself now. This dual personality thing is really confusing don’t you agree Geeo – bloody hell talking to myself now – Cactus you ain’t got nothing on us or me.

    314. Cubby says:


      “Divided we fall”

      History shows that divide and conquer has been the go to method for Britnats for a very long time.

    315. Dr Jim says:


      I would never call the FM a villain but there are many who do now and wait in hope with crossed fingers that she will be

      I personally don’t think that’ll happen and she’ll get it right

    316. Dr Jim says:

      On Sky TV they’re asking the people of England political questions regarding Brexit

      Whay are they asking the people of England questions about anything when the population of England think they live in a *country* called *Britain*

    317. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @12.59pm

      When are the Scotgov duty bound to call Indyref2?

      In my post at 12.01am I should have stated that basically what is missing in the mandate statement is a clear definition of what “the final terms of the deal are known”. This leaves it open to different interpretations. Is it when all the details of the ongoing trade deal is concluded? If it is that could be years yet. If there is a no deal Brexit then it would be reasonable to say it is clear now.

    318. yesindyref2 says:

      You seem to be having difficulty reading.

      Try reading it again – that is from the SNP manifesto – how pathetic is that, eh?

      Page fucking 08. READ THE FUCKING THING.

    319. Thepnr says:

      Has anyone ever heard of this guy Lord Wallace of Saltaire?

      His real name is William Wallace and he is a Lib Dem peer. Anyway he has a wee article in the Yorkshire Times.

    320. Thepnr says:



      I just did and here it is repeated.

      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter
      how damaging it turns out to be.

      So I’ll repeat exactly what I said first time around at 11:52.

      We are NOT yet at the end of the Brexit process, Scotland will have a choice about our future.

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr “Simple question for yeh.

      Here’s one for you. Can you read what this says here:

      “Scotland’s choice
      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be.

      and tell me what it is about that you don’t understand?

      You might want to ask the SNP – that’s their words, not mine.

      The floor is yours.

    322. Thepnr says:


      A bit slow tonight 🙂

    323. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes I know, and have posted it enough times. The following could happen:

      1). Brexit gets cancelled.
      2). Brexit gets delayed for up to a year
      3). There’s a General Election
      4). Some miracle happens and the exit deal is Norway plus. That does NOT require EDTA membership, it could be a standalone deal like Switzerland’s. Oh yes it could, but the chances of that are incredibly remote.

      4 doesn’t really fit the bill, because it’s out of the EU, but it would probably have to be close enough for government work, as the Yanks aay.

    324. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr “A bit slow tonight

      That’s because I have to go back and remove the sweary words and insults before posting.

    325. Thepnr says:


      Don’t think I didn’t notice that you dodged my question, so here it is again. Would be nice if you could explain as I’m all ears.

      How can the SNP NOT “allow Brexit to happen?”

      Answer required LOL

    326. Thepnr says:


      “sweary words and insults”

      Man you are really are clutching at straws now LOL.

    327. yesindyref2 says:

      Man, you have no humour LOL.

      And I’ve answered before in many postings LOL. Call Indy Ref 2 before the UK actually leaves the EU, and presuming the SNP have done the research which some of us have faith they have done unlike you it seems, that might even prevent the UK leaving the EU in terms of Article 50, but it would in any case allow the EU-27 to put something in place to keep Scotland in some sort of holding pen – if they want to.

      Unlike you it seems, I have faith that the SNP have sounded out all over Europe, and have a prominent MEP active in the EUP doing just that.

      Now, you didn’t answer MY question:

      Is there something you don’t understand about:

      “Scotland’s choice
      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be.

    328. Dr Jim says:


      Technically the SNP aren’t *duty bound* as you say to do anything but what they said they would do and that’s to call a referendum on Independence when the terms of the Brexit deal are known, and at this moment those terms are not known

      There are lots of guesses and lots af possibles and fewer probables but definites? not yet, and any jumping of the gun could see the Tories completely reverse their position just to NOT accomodate Scotland having a referendum and the reason they would do that is because the only assets the UK have at this moment belong to Scotland if we were Independent, so once again it’s all about Scotland

      I watched how the Americans on the Bloomberg programme put it when they said *If Scotland goes it takes its borders and its oil with it and RUK has nothing left to negotiate with anybody, and certainly nothing to sell to America*

      At this moment in time England and whoever would be left with them can’t even keep their own lights on, if you take out London and look at the rest of that country’s economy it’s a basket case that’s why the UK needs Scotland they can’t subsidise Northern Ireland AND Wales by themselves so all the back room talks will be about preventing Scotland escaping their grasp

      I believe the ERG hard Brexiters are prepared to take their chances they can defeat another Scottish referendum later but the Labour party DON’T think so and neither do half of the remainer Tories

      It’s all about the money and who can control it and who has it and these things point directly at Scotland the Las Vegas of the North with tourism alone jumping another 14% on 2016 but England went down by 5% because they’re making themselves extremely unpopular around the world, even more than they already are, they’ve lost the Hitachi nuclear contract Jaguar Landrover are in monster trouble, BMW could pull out anytime, Toyota are closing their doors for six days following Brexit to re evaluate their position and who knows what Nissan will do, if all these things come to pass in England it’s no wonder they have the army lined up on standby, it’s a nightmare and it just keeps getting worse, FOR THEM! so why wouldn’t Nicola Sturgeon not wait until they’re up to their oaksters in mud before she tells us all to make big sharp effing spears (mind you I’m just guessing here same as everybody else)

      Satisfied smiley face emoji thingy

    329. yesindyref2 says:

      And for information, the postings of Breeks and others largely reflect postings in The National, that receive at times 50 or more upvotes,, and since I observe the patterns, these are from Indy supporters, not laughing their heads off unionists.

      It would be more than 50, but Indy supporters don’t support The National as much as they should do, anywhere near enough. Just a handful of us who bother to read and post below the line.

      I guess some morons have listened to Rock too often – and were taken in.

    330. Thepnr says:


      Call Indy2 in the next 10 weeks? Well we’ll see, don’t be surprised if that does not happen. As to your other gripe.

      “Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter
      how damaging it turns out to be.”

      I’ve already told you twice yet I need to say again what I already said first time around at 11:52 and again at 01:25 but here it is again just for you.

      We are NOT yet at the end of the Brexit process, Scotland will have a choice about our future.

      Surely even for you that is clear? Has Brexit happened? Is it clear? Well then.

    331. yesindyref2 says:


      As to your other gripe.

      “Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter
      how damaging it turns out to be.”

      That’s not what I said, that’s what the SNP said in their 2017 manifesto! Can’t you read? Can’t you even try for once? Just in case you missed it in your attack dog haste, here it is again, the URL that is. Ler me make it clear for you, it’s apge 08, bottome, left-hand side, under “Scotland’s Choice”:

      Are you accusing the SNP of griping?

    332. yesindyref2 says:

      And you still haven’t answered MY question.

      I’m waiting …

    333. geeo says:

      Dr Jim @1.51am

      Outstanding post.

      That is all.


      Spot on also re: timing.

      AFTER the deal is known but BEFORE actual brexit day, has ALWAYS been the STATED AIM on timing of indyref2.

      WM has kicked and kicked the can as far down the road as possible to avoid the issue of indyref2 for as long as possible, hoping that the Yes side get fustrated and make a political mistake by committing too early, or feel pressured by a perception of splits in the Yes campaign to give away a winning advantage.

      I believe that, as long as indyref2 is CALLED before March 29th, we are good to go and protected legally.

      Also, a point never made, is that the day after march 29th, the EU can give FULL JUDGEMENT on Scotland’s post indy status would be in the event of a Yes vote.

      Imagine that huh?

      Vote Yes to REMAIN IN the EU. A position with a shown 62% support, and current polling over all political viewpoints of 59% in favour of indy should there be no deal.

      Put that together and it is a red hot certainty of an indy Scotland.

      But hey, some out there think we are fucking it up somehow…!!

      Not me, not you, but sadly there are some.

      I will say it again folks, WE ARE WINNING.

    334. Dr Jim says:

      The trouble with the National is it’s not an audio book it’s full of writing and not any shouty *Death to the English* quotes and banners and bagpipes making a noise and that just won’t do, it’s just not noisy enough, you have to pick it up and read it and that’s pure dead boring man

      Put a big red banner on the front reading Rangers will win all the worlds footy in all the universe and Boom! you’ll sell another gazillion copies overnight, problem is they still won’t read it before it gets to the Budgies cage

      Maybe an Avengers cartoon series for the kiddies, cooking for the non gender specifics and a women are more mightier than Thor segment for the female interest, and articles on how pensioners can claim more money by doing something that doesn’t involve actually doing anything, and you know what it still wouldn’t up the sales because newspapers are like voting *I’ve always voted (insert name) and I’m not changing now*

      No matter how good or bad a newspaper is people are creatures of habit and they buy what they’re used to even if it’s crap

      It was always going to be a hard sell to bring in any new newspaper even a non tribal one but the National is seen as a one topic paper and will continue to be that until Independence then I think the sales will rise just in time to be later than it should have, but rise I think they will because the rest will take a tanking and it will be seen to be acceptable to buy a National by then

    335. Dan says:

      @ Daisy

      You, like so many other folk on Wings, post constructive and informative comments and suggestions. It’s clear you’ve made significant personal commitment to the Indy cause and put a great deal of effort and thought into the various ideas and opinions you convey to those reading through these comment threads.

      It is unfortunate but it does seem many organisations with their embedded structures and constraints can appear rigid and somewhat limited in their ability to take onboard anything that comes from outside those “running the shop”.
      I can accept to a degree that this is a necessary characteristic of keeping a competent and ordered group. However, such practices can really restrict any kind of dynamism or change of tact.

      Many of those 100k new SNP members who tried to become involved after the Indyref in 2014 really struggled to fit in or be accepted as of any use by the local branches or constituency offices.
      Of course there has been a lot of electoral activity since 2014 so that needed dealing with as a priority and will have taken time and personnel resources away from working out how to deal with such a large number of new members.
      Because of that situation a huge array of skillsets and energy offered by those new members was lost which is very frustrating for those individuals, and one would also hope those within the SNP also recognise this missed opportunity too.

      There is a positive from all that has happened over the past 4 years though, and that is there are now numerous local grassroots Indy minded groups up and running all over Scotland and those numbers are continuing to grow.
      These groups are often far more flexible and dynamic, and because of that they can recognise and utilise the many skills and knowledge that those motivated individuals attending bring with them.
      I’d urge any Indy-minded or Indy-curious folk reading this to look up their local YES / Indy group and get signed up to their media feeds or email recipient lists so you are kept informed of the various events and activities they put on.

      Dinnae just sit there turnin grey
      C’mon oot an huv yer say!

    336. Thepnr says:

      I think you’re drunk now and beyond any sensible discussion, but for anybody else reading and the avoidance of doubt I did answer you earlier when you were the one using “sweary” words and giving me a bit of abuse. If the cap fits 🙂



      I just did and here it is repeated.

      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter
      how damaging it turns out to be.

      So I’ll repeat exactly what I said first time around at 11:52.

      We are NOT yet at the end of the Brexit process, Scotland will have a choice about our future.

      Have another go, why don’t you 🙂

    337. yesindyref2 says:

      I used to think Indy Ref 2 itself had to be before the 29th March, but with all the work by Alyn Smith and the famous six in the ECJ, even the UKSC rulings, I’ve come round to thinking it’s probably OK just to call it before actual Brexit, naming a date. But it has to be done before Brexit, not after, otherwise we’re out the EU with the rest of the UK.

      I think that could delay Brexit, unless the EU-27 and the UK amend any transition deal to put in a Scottish backstop similar to the Irish one, so we can have the Ref at our lesiure. And the UK wouldn’t want a delay, so the S30 would be rushed through in a couple of days, including Royal Assent.

      Touch wood 🙂

    338. yesindyref2 says:

      Haven’t touched a drop since one single beer on Thursday, just tea (no whisky in it). And no, I don’t do drugs just to anticipate your next unionist style insult.

      And you?

    339. yesindyref2 says:

      That was my experience. Such a waste of energy and talent.

    340. Thepnr says:

      There will be no Scottish backstop, nor will there be a unilateral withdrawal from Article 50.

      We need to get real, Scotland WILL leave the EU along with the UK unless that process is stopped by the MP’s in Westminster. For what it’s worth I believe there’s a good chance of that.

      As far as Scotland is concerned then the harder the Brexit is best and No Deal best of all. It’s not what I want, far from it but now doesn’t really matter.

    341. schrodingers cat says:


      im with pnr, the manifesto does say

      “Scotland’s choice, At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known”

      seems clear enough, since no one knows what the final terms will be, or indeed if brexit will even happen,

      we will know in a few weeks. i also think that an extension to the a50 date will be granted, but only a small one until june when the eu elections happen. I hopes so, I hate canvasing in the winter, also, having boots on the ground is one of the advantages we have over the unionists. the extension might give us time to hold indyref2 before we officially leave.

      I still think we will have a ge before then, latest rumour is may will call it, put her deal on the tory manifesto and boot out the brexiteer mps. this would split the party and their voters since a large majority of tories now support no deal

    342. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes it does, and that’s implied in what I posted. At the moment we don’t know even if the UK will Brexit, it can unilaterally cancel Brexit as per the ECJ ruling, as long as the PM writes to the EU revoking article 50. That coule even be done with a parliamentary vote, and there are some talking about that it seems.

      But if it isn’t cancelled, and it’s a no deal, May’s deal or some slight improvement on that, then the terms are clear and the second part is activated BEFORE the actual Brexit.

      Nowhere in the manifesto does it say that IR2 won’t be held if someone thinks it might not be won. What it says is that Scotland will be given a choice. If Scotland is dragged out of the EU with the UK, then we haven’t been given a choice, and the manifesto promise has been broken.

      That hasn’t happened yet.

    343. yesindyref2 says:

      For the avoidance of doubt, if I want to say anything against the SNP, I will. No braying donkey or bleating sheep with “SNPbaaad” or “pretendy Indy supporter” will stop me, NOR should it stop anyone else. Don’t be bullied. This is not an SNP forum, and there is only one moderator.

      For the further avoidance of doubt, I currently have nothing to say against the SNP regarding the pursuit of Indy Ref 2, I’m quite content with the way it’s going and the way they’re handling it. Including the unofficial utterings, as I posted earlier on.

    344. Cactus says:

      Morning all, hehe, we all having fun yeah…

      The lunar eclipse is NOW taking effect..

      Are you watching?

      Look up.

    345. Cactus says:

      Lunar update.

      We are at moon totality, full total eclipse is imminent. 🙂

      Hey Chris!

    346. Cactus says:

      You can watch and go LIVE too:

      Just, like Independence.

      UK End of Days update:

      Day 7 (incl.)

    347. yesindyref2 says:

      I used to be a teenage werewolf but I’m OK noooooooowwwooooo!

    348. Cactus says:

      Hehe, aye thur huv been a few howlers here the night hahaha 🙂

      5:12am for the full colour change, all ye lookers.

      Yer 7-Day week is up Theresa May.

      What’s yer new no-deal?

    349. yesindyref2 says:

      Was clear earlier on and a bright full moon. Cloudy now 🙁

    350. Snap, cloudy here too and yet going into the eclipse was stunning !!!

    351. Sarah says:

      I saw the eclipse at 04.30 because I couldn’t sleep. One thing I was thinking about was the way it is said that a party has to do something e.g. the EU referendum, because it was in their manifesto.

      Is it only me who has voted for 40 years and NEVER seen a manifesto? Surely if that is a contract document that a vote is to be given on, we should all be sent a copy?

      All I ever see are the party political leaflets which contain aspirations and, in some cases, distortions.

    352. Dr Jim says:

      Used to be you got copies of political manifestos in Libraries, maybe they still do that

    353. Yesindyref2 @ 2.34

      Like you I used to think we had to call and hold Indyref2 before Brexit Day, but Nicola has always said ‘the end of the brexit process’. I remember two years ago, when T May said ‘now is to the time’ having an argument with a southern friend who said it would be really irresponsible for Scotland to call an Indy ref just as we were reaching the final weeks of the Brexit negotiations. Funnily enough, we were in Hungary on holiday at the time and his Hungarian wife sprang to the defence of Scotland telling him that he didn’t understand because his country had never been occupied!!!

      So far as I understand, T May’s withdrawal bill, the power grab, is supposed to give her power over various things to make UK wide trade negotiations easier but if indy ref is called before March 29th, then that ring fences certain things?

      Our ( illegal) Continuity bill was supposed to prevent that power grab.
      So, I guess, that if Indy ref2 is called before March 29th/Brexit day then the EU would be loathe to negotiate on these areas as the ownership of these areas would not be ‘sovereign’ UK property – in which case we have played the ace card and there is all to play for.

      Especially since by that time, we will know the deal that T May wants to pursue.

      Hearing overnight that she wants to amend the Good Friday Agreement – this woman is delusional.

      Off out to see if there is anything visible for the last 6 minutes of totality!

    354. Petra says:

      Article about the honest and impartial BBC.

      ”Diane Abbott Question Time row: Labour requests BBC footage of Fiona Bruce ‘joke’ and demands on-air correction of poll claim.’

    355. Petra says:

      Long Letter in the Sunday National:-

      ‘Let’s be clear about exactly what the Act of Union actually set out.’

      ”Hamish MacPherson’s article in last Sunday’s edition claims that Scotland surrendered its independence in 1707 and asks whether the Henry VIII rules were legally applied (Bribery, corruption and riots … the troubled passage of the Act of Union, January 13).

      It is worth noting what is NOT stated in the Agreements is as important as what IS in them.

      There is NO Government of Great Britain, no mention of a country of Great Britain, no parliamentary sovereignty or clause for English parliamentary sovereignty to be transferred on to the Parliament of Great Britain, no parliamentary majority, no party political system of Great Britain, no military of Great Britain, no institutions of Great Britain bar House of Lords and Treasury which were to be represented equally by both Scotland and England, no English dominion, no ceding of independence of either country.

      There IS the enshrining of all rights prior to and after the signing of both countries. These rights include the sovereignty, independence, constitution, rights of the people and in Scotland’s case the right to remove the monarch. In addition to these there are specific conditions which automatically void and dissolve the Agreements if they are violated. The institutions, law and legal system, religion and territorial integrity must be upheld and kept separate indefinitely. The territorial borders of Scotland have been repeatedly violated by the English Government, the institutions of Scotland removed, the religions (recently) united, the law and legal system encroached upon and Anglofied. The English Supreme Court acting as a state court in violation of the specific condition which states that no law passed in England can be imposed on Scotland and vice versa.

      The reason for these conditions and omissions is because what was created in 1707 was not a country but the state of Great Britain which comprised of a binary parliament and a trade flag that was to be flown on ships. The majority of the Articles of the Agreements deal with trade and their related taxes, exemptions, the monarch’s entitlements, peerages, the binary parliament which is to house both the Scottish and English Governments with EQUAL authority, the number of MPs from each country and the alignment of laws relating to trade between Scotland and England that may conflict with the Agreements, and Scotland taking on England’s debt with the provision that Scotland would be compensated for doing so. (A compensation that was never given.)

      But much like September 19, 2014, as soon as the Agreement was signed England changed the terms to suit itself and began the colonisation process which led to the Highland Clearances and the outlawing of all things Scottish. By 1801, Scotland was essentially governed by England. England then created the erroneously and colonialist named Agreement with Ireland called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This Agreement ceased when Ireland re-established its statehood. Northern Ireland was partitioned and is considered by the English establishment a province of England. Thus the only Agreement which falsely claims to still be active is that of 1707 between Scotland and England.

      It is a sad state of affairs which reflects the colonisation of Scotland that colonialist terminology is routinely used by Scots, the Scottish establishment and sadly even The National, which does not distinguish between the four countries within the state of Great Britain, their governments, institutions and nations and that of the state itself.

      The only country within the state of Great Britain that does not refer to itself with regards to its government, parliament, political parties etc is England, which self-styles itself the United Kingdom. This is a deliberate act as by doing this people within the state of Great Britain and globally are led to believe that a country called the “United Kingdom” was created in 1707 and that Scotland ceased to exist, rather than the state of Great Britain. However, while the Scottish Parliament merely adjourned, the English parliament was officially abolished in order to establish the Parliament of Great Britain.

      Had the English establishment honoured the Agreements instead of colonising Scotland the Scots would likely have (now) been content to remain in the state of Great Britain. As it is, the utter racist attitude and contempt shown on a daily basis along with the English dictatorship has inevitably led Scots and pro-Scotland campaigners to back a Scottish state. Where England asserts its sovereignty, democracy and independence on a daily basis, so too will Scotland in the only way left open to the sovereign peoples of Scotland – through the re-establishment of a Scottish state.”

      Anonymous via email.

    356. Petra says:

      For anyone who is interested.

      Alex Salmond and Joanna Cherry will be hosting a Burns Supper at Linlithgow Bowling Club on Friday night … 7-11pm. Being held by Linlithgow SNP. Tickets priced at £25 available from Eventbrite.

    357. yesindyref2 says:

      A BBC spokesperson said: “We’re sorry to hear Diane Abbott’s concerns and have contacted her team to reassure them social media reports are inaccurate and misleading.

      What a patronising dishonest response 🙁

      @Meg merrilees
      Sounds right to me.

    358. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, that quote was from the Independent article, not Petra!

    359. wull2 says:

      I bet someone was gad so many people were up and outside with their necks stretched upwards.

    360. Ken500 says:

      Write a negative article about an IndyRef get a gig Sky reviewing papers. Joyce McMillian. Kerrching

      Speak about boring.

      Murdoch getting away illegally with £30Billion. Getting away with murder.

    361. call me dave says:

      Jings! The earlier you get up and tune into radio shortbread the worse the state of the SNHS gets. 🙁

    362. Macart says:

      I’d imagine this isn’t how most folk wanted to see us approach self government. I’d guess it’s not how the SNP would want it to have happened either. It is however where we are at.

      We’re here because of a decision made a little over four years ago. We have multiples of constitutional crises, as mad and inept a Tory government as has ever been and as ineffectual and divided a Labour party as there has ever been. As for the populations of the UK? Better togetherness doesn’t appear to figure highly these days much.

      Why aren’t we independent already? Why do we have to wait to be saved from UKgov chaos and the ever more intolerant and aggressive UK we find ourselves attached to? Why oh why aren’t the SNP actively promoting or pursuing an openly aggressive independence line?

      Pretty common questions across the indyweb tbs. And Jings! The explanations.

      They’ve got comfy in the role of devolution. The Westminster crowd have become equally comfy and could, in fact, have been won over by the darkside. They don’t have the bottle. There’s no spark or drive. They’re busy having a civil war (Oh FFS!).

      Yet whatever they’ve got in mind and whatever their plan? Whether we agree with it or not, they’re our best hope. The Scottish government have to literally negotiate a legal, constitutional, economic and societal meltdown with both hands tied behind their backs in terms of powers.

      It’s also entirely possible they’re the wrong folk to ask right enough. Might be the people to ask why we are where we are, should be UK gov and the people who voted no in 2014. It wouldn’t be wrong for folk to reason that we’re here in the middle of this shit storm because we didn’t take the exit door when it was lit with neon arrows shouting ‘this way to the lifeboats’.

      If the latter half of the equation above are fortunate? There might be an opportunity to light up those neon signs again in the not too distant future.

      Right now though? Now it’s going to be a process and legality ridden minefield in an unprecedented situation with spin, dirty pool and fibbery on display which’ll make indyref 1 look like the good ol’ days.

      And yes. At this point, you’d have to be a stone not feel the nerves fraying a bit.

    363. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      21 January, 2019 at 2:42 am
      There will be no Scottish backstop, nor will there be a unilateral withdrawal from Article 50.

      We need to get real.

      Hold that thought next election time.

      I don’t care what the SNP said in their manifesto or how many years the SNP has carried the flag Independence. It wouldn’t matter a damn if the SNP had just been invented yesterday. It is not important. What IS important is that Brexit is a clear and present existential danger and unconstitutional act of subjugation which will do untold damage to the fabric of our country for decades to come. It needs to be defeated before it damages our nation and our nation’s interests.

      We have multiple layers of protection in our historic Constitution spanning centuries, and we have further more modern watersheds like our democratic mandate to reject Brexit in 2016. The country itself IS defending itself. It’s voting for a party which advocates self determination. It’s rejecting the xenophobic rhetoric and indoctrination. It’s trying to articulate its voice outside the corrupted the mainstream media. It’s trying to make its constitution stand for something.

      If you imagine Scotland as a corporeal body, it is already producing adrenaline and antigens to fight off an invasive attack of the hostile Brexit pathogen, but then as if by madness, our defences are being nullified; blocked and subdued by the anaesthesia of “wait and see” indecisive politics from Party which should be leading the charge.

      QED Thepnr. If we do nothing, the infection will overcome us. There will be no Scottish Backstop, nor will there be a unilateral withdrawal from Article 50. It seems the SNP will make sure of it.

      The problem we have is a Scottish government which lost its way the moment it ignored the Scottish Constitutional doctrine of popular sovereignty over Brexit, in lieu of a strategy to pursue a soft Brexit policy, and even then, forfeited ALL initiative to Theresa May by this deeply flawed assertion that nothing could be done before the final details of Brexit were known. Scotland was thus left unable to decide a damn thing because Nicola surrendered to Theresa May the privilege of deciding everything first. Theresa May has since had a grand old time not deciding a damn thing, and is now trolling Scotland saying that Brexit must be delivered because that’s what the people voted for. She is taking the piss and you can’t even see it.

      If you’re correct, and there is no SNP escape strategy for Brexit, it’s NOT the Tories I’m going to blame, but the Party who wants to revel in the kudos of being Scotland’s defenders, but actually draws its strategy from a Les Dennis impression of Deirdre Barlow “I, I, I…. I don’t really know…”

      The only sensible thing you have said Thepnr is “We need to get real”. The SNP absolutely does. It is nearly out of time.

      There is a reason why Therea May’s “Deal” doesn’t even mention the word Scotland, but the same deal is crippled by the lightning rod of an Irish Constitutional Backstop. Scotland’s Sovereignty is the most potent weapon we’ve got.

      To paraphrase Harold MacMillan, with all the Constitutional levers and precedents at our disposal, the public anger at Brexit and mistreatment of our EU citizens, the threats to our economy, the failing indoctrination, the weak and feckless paralysis of a Westminster Government, in the context of Scottish Independence, “we’ve never had it so good”.

      But No. “Let’s just roll with Brexit, postpone everything for now, and fight the good fight some other day. We’ll have a better shot later on. Up the SNP!”.

      Aye. And you seriously think I’m the one who needs to get real.

      You can scream all the abuse at me all you like. But be aware all that I hear is a kinda washed out Les Dennis, and if I want to feel bad, all I need do is look to the future of my country. It’s true. There was nobody else to vote for.

    364. Famous15 says:

      And for listeners to BBC Scotland.

      Pigeon shite and Jean Freeman must answer.

      Only in Scotland Eh?

      Shite! No kidding.

    365. Ken500 says:

      The best time to have an Indy Ref is when it can be won. The unionists can be voted out in Scotland over the next 2+ years. There would be no opposition.

    366. Ken500 says:

      The people who died would have died anyway. They die from underlying medical conditions.

      Extremely rare.

    367. Robert Louis says:

      Yesindyref2 at 0234am

      Whilst I am responding to your post, not all my comments are addressed specifically to you personally, so please do not take any offence etc..

      I agree mostly with what you said, yes, their are still a few technicalities from westminster, what will Theresa do next etc.. but I think matters are now getting pretty clear, and we will know within a few days or a week. An election simply won’t happen. Nor will brexit ref2. Article 50 will not be revoked (Tory supporters would likely lynch Theresa May, if that happened).

      So NS will know how to progress indyref within a few days or so.

      One concern I have however, is that once brexit has happened, people will get used to the idea very quickly, no matter how many problems their are. Try to actually think through the scenario once March 2019 has passed. It will have happened in most people’s eyes – a ‘past event’. Westminster will go back to normal. Of course their will be problems, trade deals etc. but most folks will gradually just get used to the idea, and all the anguish currently happening will be forgotten and folk will get on with their lives.

      Importantly, however, I think it will set a new benchmark, from Westminster’s perspective, and that is that such things CAN be done to Scotland, with impunity.

      Those suggesting waiting a year or two to hold indyref are in my opinion quite, quite incorrect, and invariably make grand, wholly unsupported, assumptions about how jolly unhappy everybody will be, such that indy support will soar. I think, if the current Scottish Government and SNP do not honour their electoral mandate with respect to indyref soon, then they will likely be booted out of office next election. Many, many people would NEVER forgive them, and I certainly wouldn’t. Such intransigence by the SNP would be no different to the way in which Labour in Scotland became very complacent, and just took their voters for granted. It is the EXACT same thing. Yet still I hear murmerings that it should be delayed etc…

      You will NEVER again have such a weak westminster government which would struggle to adequately argue against independence, as you do now.

      When I hear ANYBODY from the SNP argue we should wait a few years for indyref2, all I hear is ‘I’m pretty comfortable in my job as MP/MSP, and really, do we want all the hassle of an indyref, since I might end up losing my seat if it goes wrong’.

      Loyalty to the SNP leadership is admirable to a point, but BLIND loyalty, no matter what happens, is utter folly, and those who indulge in it, effectively write a blank cheque for the SNP leadership to do exactly as it pleases. It does nobody any good, and certainly will not help us achieve independence.

      If NS next announcement in a week or so regarding indyref, is just further delay, then she will have lost my support for good. We need action. If a party supposedly devoted to Scottish independence is not prepared to come out and fight in the scenario we currently find ourselves in, then it is of no earthly use to anybody. Westminster will NEVER hand independence to Scotland voluntarily, it will ALWAYS be a fight. And, if you are going to fight a bigger stronger opponent, then you do it when they are at their weakest. With regards to Westminster, that is RIGHT NOW.

      Their will NEVER be the ‘perfect time’, their will always be new political issues and crises to deal with, but now is actually pretty good.

      Indyref should be held asap, preferably before March 2019. I repeat, you will NEVER again have such a weak chaotic Westminster government. Scotland is about to be right royally f***ed by Westminster. The damage will be irreparable. Call indyref2 asap.

    368. Ken500 says:

      The Tories have killed 120,000 elderly people prematurely in England because of NSH cuts. (£4Billion a year from 2015-2020). Elderly death ? In England is up 17%. Life expectancy in England falling. Vote Tory to die earlier. They are killing off their own supporters.

    369. Ken500 says:

      The IndyRef will be held when it can be won.

    370. Ken500 says:

      The IndyRef will be held when it can be won.

      If people in Scotland vote against it. Westminster cannot do things to Scotland with impunity.

    371. Petra says:

      ‘Brexit: May looks for way to break deadlock – Theresa May will try to convince Tory Brexiteers and DUP MPs to back her withdrawal deal by resolving Irish backstop concerns.’

      It looks as though the cross-party (country) talks have bombed. It’s all about the totally deluded nutter, T May, trying to appease right wing fascists and bigots, that no-one in Scotland voted for. Scotland? Where’s that?


      Reporting Scotland is as fly as a bag of monkeys. They’ve just reported that many Scots are paying over the odds re. their energy costs and then immediately follow that up with stating that the Scottish government has awarded Malawi over £1 million in grants (£600,000 on their website) to help power 4 villages. Additionally the SG is no doubt trying to encourage people to remain in their own country and play a part in dealing with climate change.

      However, I can just hear some people watching at home saying that’s ridiculous helping foreigners in a hot country whilst we’re sitting freezing, when in actual fact it’s a solar energy project being implemented to support student learning, the establishment of local businesses and protecting the environment.

      Strange that they are loathe to inform the Scots of the manifold (Westminster) reasons as to why we’re actually paying through the nose for our energy. Totally scunnered with them and can’t wait to get our Independence and dump this lot – the BBC Scotland’s number one enemy (or two after Westminster).

    372. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Could have been worse for Diane Abbot she could have been an SNP MP interviewed on BritNat BBC Shortbreid, she’d have seen what real dishonesty, barracking, interruptions and condescension are @Petra says at 6:40 am

      Classic British Nationalist Labour Party and just like Lord Adonis epiphany over the BBC and it’s reportage of Brexit they only have an issue when it affects them.

      If they really have a fuck about BBC impartiality they’d have called it out earlier and also call out the BBCs continual BritNat bias in Scotland (but they won’t because the BBCs bias in Scotland is the only thing keeping The British Nationalist Parties Branch Offices alive up here).

      The feelings of entitlement in the Labour Party run deep.

    373. Colin Alexander says:

      UK Democracy

      The democratically elected Scottish Parliament passed the Continuity Bill.

      The unelected, undemocratic Lords killed the Continuity Bill.

      It’s time the sovereign people of Scotland ended the role of the unelected House of Lords who attacked Scotland’s democracy.

      If we can sack a king, we can sack Lords.

      So, independent or no, we must end the House of Lords interfering in Scottish democracy.

      But, preferably by Scotland becoming independent.

    374. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      It was Mavis who was caricatured by Les Dennis.

      These things are important!

    375. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 8:35am …..”If you imagine Scotland as a corporeal body, it is already producing adrenaline and antigens to fight off an invasive attack of the hostile Brexit pathogen, but then as if by madness, our defences are being nullified; blocked and subdued by the anaesthesia of “wait and see” indecisive politics from Party which should be leading the charge.”…

      Here we go again. You’ve been advocating that Nicola Sturgeon should have called IndyRef2 since the EU Referendum results with your persistent ”she should not wait and see” mantra. With everything that has come to pass, if she had followed your advice we would have lost what is probably our best and last chance to get our Independence.

      It’s you, imo, that attempting to nullify, block and subdue us and our chances of getting our Independence with your convoluted ”gaslighting” posts. Thank God we don’t have long to wait now until we get news of IndyRef2. When that happens what are going to do? Spout about then?

    376. galamcennalath says:

      MSM full of fantasy politics this morning. TMay will re-write GFA. TMay will remove the backdrop and somehow still have a ‘deal’ with the EU.

      Where is this utter nonsense coming from? Fake news? Bullshit propaganda ‘leaks’? Some dark agenda?

      If Scotland/UK had media which did its job properly and called out garbage instead of promoting it, we wouldn’t be in such a mess.

    377. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Louis

      If indyref2 is not called in the next week or two, I have a feeling, if an SNP MSP won’t table a motion to call indyref2, the Greens will.

      There have been mutterings already from the Greens that they are losing patience with the FM’s prevarication on requesting an S30.

      It would force the FM and SNP senior politicians to either back it or vote against their own electoral mandate.

    378. Grouse Beater says:

      Oh dear, Mary Queen of Scots, an English perspective:

    379. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I went to watch Mary Queen of Scots this week. What a metaphor for our times. Why one English diplomat even gets to tell Scots: “Now is not the time,” FFS.

      Then you have the Queen of Scots being undone by some of her own nobles, colluding with the English, while the rest fight among themselves – we have not come far in about 420 years.

      The reality today is, Nicola has to allow Theresa to totally fuck-up Brexit, before she can enorce her mandate for Indyref2, and Theresa is going to take until about 28 March to finish her uck things up role.

      Even then, she will say: “Now is not the time,” and reuse the Section 30 Order.

      I want to hope the SNP’s constitutional experts have done their homework, so Nicola can tell Thersa – we don’t need your S30 and are going ahead.

      But, as in MQOS, there will still be a pro-English fifth column inside Scotland, doing their damnedest to do Scotland down. Some thngs never change.

    380. Ghillie says:

      Teresa May is, I believe, absolutely batshit crazy and that can present as a very hard nut to crack (intended).

      Add to that, and with no disrespect intended, that the previously No voters we have to convince that Scotland should be independent believed the better together lies, believed the vow, and in some cases even believe the vow was delivered because that is what they were told.

      On top of that, the legal wrangles and procedures that need to be navigated with care and precision mean that Scotland’s Road to Independence is not a wide and smoothly paved boulevard but a steep and rocky pass that we WILL negotiate successfully with strength, courage, decency and ingenuity – because we all want it so badly and that is what we are made of.

      Nicola Sturgeon, her SNP team, the Greens, all the Yes groups, all the Indy blogers and Indy media, and EVERY individual who has that conversation at the bus stop or at home or at work, will win Scotland’s Independence.

      We are on a rocky road and we ARE making progress but it IS hard. So lets all lend a hand to the folk a wee bit behind us and shout encouragement to those a wee bit ahead.

    381. jfngw says:

      If it wasn’t for the EU Westminster would be treating the GFA the same way it treated the Treaty of Union, basically they would just ignore anything they signed if it is inconvenient. When they say parliament is sovereign they actually believe it refers to the whole world, they are that deluded.

      Mind you not deluded as May who is basically going to present the same vote to parliament that was rejected by the largest majority in history. Although with the Tories & DUP who knows, they could vote for something they said was unacceptable just two weeks earlier.

    382. Nana says:

      On the Full Scottish this week, Corri Wilson is joined by guests Douglas Chapman MP and Dr. Craig Dalzell, Head of Research for the Common Weal.

      Short video of Nicola to give you a wee chuckle

    383. Nana says:

      Scotland tourism statistics continue to skyrocket as English visor numbers decline -brexit dividend?
      Scottish greenhouse gas emissions plunge by 76% as industries switch to low carbon energy and raw materials.
      Scotland continues to streak away from the UK in many different ways, as brexit tensions see terrorism raise its head again in Derry “London” Derry

    384. Nana says:

      Ireland’s peace may well be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit ignorance

      Thread re the latest UKgov nonsense ‘bilateral treaty’

      From rickets to gout – hundreds in the North East hospitalised by Victorian diseases

      Taking from the poor to give to the rich

    385. Nana says:

      I wonder if the Government will consider Brexit a valid trigger for the Civil Contingencies Act 2004? Because then literally all bets are off as to where the UK ends up.

      Will not archive

      I’m they are hard at work destroying files and documents, especially those which show Scotland have subsidised England for centuries

    386. Nana says:

      Stewart McDonald says

      England’s rebel spirit is rising – and it wants a no-deal Brexit

      £80m RAF Typhoons among A THIRD of force’s planes unfit to fly

    387. Macart says:


      Great crop this morning Nana. Hope you’re keeping better. 🙂

    388. Lochside says:

      Thepnr…you are welcome to not read my posts..but if you do read then please read and understand. You stated that:

      ‘Will Podmore who you seem to adore was a Wings troll’

      That makes me think you really are hard of thinking and yet another one of the ‘hive’ on here who cannot read and absorb without flying into a rage about ‘trolls’.

      As for me being ‘better off at Bella’ …. where I’m sure a welcome awaits’….you may be surprised to know that the well named Mike Small (minded) who runs (down) the site, has banned me for critical comments because of his ‘Rise’ anti SNP narrative.

      But no doubt, you and the rest of the bad mouthers on here will doubt that as it does not fit your one dimensional narrative on what a Scottish Nationalist…which I am and continue to be..actually constitutes.

    389. Bob Mack says:

      @Daisy Walker,

      Just catching up on the various threads,and yours caught my eye.

      You are quite right Daisy. As far as I am concerned the SNP are only the conduit by which Independence will be offered. Nothing more. I stopped going to local branch meetings because regardless of what was said,many good initiatives were simply ignored because they didn’t fit in with party objectives.

      I found this surprising as some suggestions were off the scale in a brilliant way.

      Bottom line I suppose is that WE the people and supporters of indy have to do our own thing regardless of who is unhappy about it. I maintain my membership, and will do so until possibly another party comes along offering indy as an option.

      My life is now about independence,not necessarily the SNP. After all, it is we who chap the doors and make converts out of those who are doubters, not the candidates.

      My aim is not to convert them to the SNP, but to the possibilities independence would offer.

      Keep fighting Daisy You are stronger than any political party.

    390. Breeks says:

      “Here we go again. You’ve been advocating that Nicola Sturgeon should have called IndyRef2 since…”

      No I absolutely have not.

      I’ve been advocating that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP should defend Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

      Defend the existential Constitution on of the damned country, THEN, and only then, you can amuse yourselves with ephemeral popularity at the ballot box.

      It is our Sovereign Constitution that is threatened with grievously damaging subjugation, NOT the SNP.

      Here we go again eh? I hope you choke on your complacency and hubris.

    391. Nana says:

      Morning Macart.
      I’m no too bad Sam, champing at the bit to start new treatment soon.

      The waiting is the hard part! but patience is a virtue 🙂

    392. mike cassidy says:

      Mary Queen Of Scots

      A Scottish response!

    393. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 10:32am ………. ”I hope you choke on your complacency and hubris.”

      Hubris? Using psychological projection now along with gaslighting?

    394. geeo says:

      Yesindyref2@ 2.34am

      Pretty much same view as myself.

      As i said at 2.18am:

      I believe that, as long as indyref2 is CALLED before March 29th, we are good to go and protected legally.

      Also, a point never made, is that the day after march 29th, the EU can give FULL JUDGEMENT on Scotland’s post indy status would be in the event of a Yes vote.

      Of course, it dependes what Scotsgov says/does, if Treeza tries the tired old “now is not the time” line.

      Not long before we find out, but i suspect we will be announcing a date first, then demanding a S.30 at a time of our choosing then daring WM to defy us.

    395. Tinto Chiel says:

      Particularly enjoyed the “Rebel Spirit” article in your 10.14, Nana. Some of the swivel-eyed comments btl are reminiscent of the fruit loops Craig Murray has to put up with on his site. If there were a “People’s Vote”, I’m not convince there would be a different result. Some people have watched The Dambusters too often.

      Another source of pleasure for me was being able to refuse to give The Guardian a penny to perpetuate its faux-leftie, duplicitous bilge. George Monbiot is really out of place there.

    396. Nana says:

      Peter Lilley just told @BBCr4today that Calais have said they will add “three extra lorry lanes”. ????? I was in Calais on Thursday in a truck. There are OVER 500 lanes for lorries. It isn’t lanes that are the issue. Here’s what it’s like lorry-side
      link to archived guardian article here

      For anyone who missed Saturday’s Good morning Scotland anti SNP broadcast

    397. Nana says:

      Morning Tinto, from what I’ve seen on my travels around the web I would say if anything the leave vote would be higher in England should there be another vote.
      Some of what I’ve read is truly frightening, ignorance and ‘good ol blighty’ spirit carrying them along to the Brexit cliff.

      I posted some more links, one covering Peter Lilley’s comments from this morning re Calais and lorry hold ups. Four articles in moderation as I stupidly added a fifth link……so check back later to see if they appear.

    398. jezza says:

      Half the comments on this site are posted by “troll hunters”.

      They deliberately go out of their way to call other contributors “trolls” just because that other contributor posts something that is not in line with some peoples way of thinking.

      There are a half dozen serial “troll hunters” on Wings and you seem to hunt in packs.

      No need for names,,,we all know who you are.

      The only thing your “troll hunting” succeeds in doing is it fucks up the whole of the thread for everyone else.

      Rant over.

    399. Cubby says:


      A very good rant. So in your opinion there are no Britnats posting on Wings. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying there are Britnats listing on Wings but just let them post all their lies and misleading crap.

      Any advice what to do? Or are you just trolling “troll hunters “as you call them.

    400. Bob Mack says:


      You are correct. I think it is because they do not feel others measure up to the commitment they feel themselves.

      People may wish an ideal,but actually are often flexible in how they achieve that objective. Some posters don’t allow for that flexibility, and say so soon after.

      Result—–conflict and accusation. I have little problem in allowing diversity of thought.

    401. Cubby says:

      Pretty fed up with posts saying if the ref is not called now then I will never vote for Sturgeon or the SNP again. What are you going to do vote Conservative, vote Labour. Turn in to a Britnat overnight. Get a grip.


      Just to be clear I will wait to see what Sturgeon decides is the best course of action.

      Fact. The Scotgov 2017 mandate is not clear what the deal being clear actually means. Is it the withdrawal agreement deal or is it the ongoing trade deal or both. What it does not say is that indyref2 will definitely be called before we leave the EU.

      Sooner or later we will find out if our leaders are like the Bruce or a bunch of Charlie’s and not very bonnie ones at that.

    402. Commandment No 2,

      `And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. We’ll decide if someone’s trolling or not.

      But in the meantime, if you think they are, ignore them.

      If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

      Email us about suspected trolls if you want.

      But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives,

      and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.`

    403. Ken500 says:

      It is SNP members who donate, pay for, print and deliver millions of leaflets. It is SNP members who tramp the streets till they are exhausted. It is SNP members who organise. It is SNP members who tramp up tenements and closes on every campaign. It is SNP members who go to Conference to vote on resolutions. It is SNP members who have supportered SNP all their lives through thick and thin. It is SNP members who since 1928 have been campaigning for Independence. It is SNP members who go to ‘boring’ meeting as required by Law to kerp the organisation going. It is SNP members who take holidays to canvass and campaign. It is SNP members who pay to stand candidates. Butchers, bakers, joiners, eldctricans doctors, nurses, NHS workers, teachers, bankers, engineers, seaman, oil rig workers, farmers, migrants, journalists people from every section of society. Retired, unemployed, mothers, fathers, grandparents, grandchildren, sons, daughters. All different family members, 2Million people support Independence.

      There would be no Independence without SNP members. The pity is there aren’t more of them. Instead of those who just want to criticise.

    404. jezza says:

      Cubby 11.26am

      Paranoia can be cured with the right medical help.

      If I were you I would make an appointment with your GP as soon as possible.

      As for me, I am fully paid up member of the SNP and mad Indy supporter.

      I am not a troll ,,,,honest.

    405. Ken500 says:

      It is SNP members who were delivering leaflets till 9pm on 13th Sept 1914 absolutely exhausted that their feet could hardly carry them. To be beyond depressed for weeks after at the result. It is SNP members who give regularly to food banks every month. Who want a better society/world for everyone. Who get a wee annoyed at being slagged off for not putting up billboards when money is tight and is best kept for campaigns to have most impact.

      They do not have too heads and occasionally get annoyed at irrational criticism when they are doing the best they possibly can do.

    406. jfngw says:

      Looks like the GFA is another referendum that T.May does not want to respect. She seems to have an issue with referendums that she does not agree with.

      Obviously she sees she could ignore the Scottish & Welsh devolution referendum votes, now the NI & Ireland ones.

      So only the 2014 and 2016 votes are to be respected, basically because that’s what England wants. I can’t see any other rational reasoning.

    407. Proud Cybernat says:

      I’d just like everyone to know that the back-biting and bitching that’s going on here on WoS of late isn’t putting me off WoS at all. I know it’s supposed to and that’s what the shit-stirrers causing this unrest are hoping.

      Sorry – but I see you. And your efforts won’t work with this Winger.

    408. cirsium says:

      Looking forward to the FM’s announcement. In the meantime, this is a good post on the subject of IndyRef2

    409. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken 500,

      Ken, you are a reliable and great source of information, but don’t confuse two different things.

      Would you have walked round the same doors for any party who advocated independence? Judging by your posts you most certainly would. The SNP are the means ,but what really drives us is our desire to self govern, That ultimately is why we do what we do regardless of any other factor.

    410. Socrates MacSporran says:

      cirsium @ 12.17pm

      Thanks for that link to sputnik news. Cracking post from Tommy Sheridan, in which he hits all the right targets and talks a lot of good sense.

      It is frustrating to know, the Tory party is divided, fighting among themselves and have seemingly forgotten all about those awkward Sweaties – and we are not taking advantage of this.

      Nicola has to strike before they waken-up and once more turn on us. We are running out of time for calling Indyref2.

      Scottish history is littered with stories of our leaders, arguing among themselves and missing terrific opportunities – this current situation cannot be allowed to become another one on that sorry list.

    411. jezza says:

      I think it was Ozzy Osbourne who sang about “Paranoia”.

      He is of course appearing at the Glasgow Hydro on 7th February.

      Maybe a few on here will be sitting in the front row.

    412. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana, as an example re. Joanna Cherry.

      You also say, ”from what I’ve seen on my travels around the web I would say if anything the leave vote would be higher in England should there be another vote.”

      And from what I’ve seen / heard some of those bleating on about wanting a No Deal think it means remaining in the EU, lol. Talk about confusion! And no wonder … totally confused Government = an absolutely confused populace.

      Thanks for your input to the site Nana. It’s invaluable. Take care of yourself and I hope your health improves very soon X

    413. schrodingers cat says:

      this is an important piece by John Harris, he catches the mood of england perfectly.

      treezas dilemma, give up her deal, back no deal and keep her voters on her side, or clear out the erg mps, force her deal into the tory manifesto and divide the tory voters allowing ukip back into game,

      both labour and tories, the 2 main unionist parties are divided and at their weakest ever.

    414. Sarah says:

      @Petra at 06.50 – the long letter you kindly posted [I only collect my Nationals once a week so not seen the paper yet!] about the Treaty was very interesting and gives room for some hope about a legal challenge.

      It has been said that there isn’t a chance of challenging the Treaty due to passage of time with accumulation of precedents in law, but I prefer the letter’s version!


      @ Dr Jim re manifesto copies in libraries. Not so many libraries now, of course! But isn’t it odd that we are asked to vote on a manifesto that is said to be binding yet we don’t see the document?

      And how many people [other than one of the earlier commenters on here] do read a manifesto? Am I in a minority when I say I have never read one?

    415. jfngw says:

      Seems Monica Lennon is now also a pigeon shit expert, I’m not sure when the pigeon bit was added to the résumé.

      When this non story was being pushed by the BBC I commented to my wife it can’t be long before we see Ms Lennon being interviewed, a few seconds later there she was on the BBC news. Do I have psychic powers or is the BBC just so predictable, they are like flies round shite when it comes to a Scotland is crap story.

    416. Col says:

      Westminster just isn’t fit to govern Scotland. It doesn’t even have England’s best interests at heart let alone scotland’s. Time to go.

    417. crazycat says:

      @ schrodingers cat

      The John Harris article (which I agree is important) archived:

      @ Sarah

      Manifesto commitments are not binding; some time ago the Labour Party went to court to establish their right not to fulfil their promises.

    418. Ken500 says:

      YES, YES, YES

    419. wull2 says:

      In response to the back-biting and bitching, it only means my finger gets more sore scrolling past more posts, it does not stop me reading Wings, sorry it is not working.

    420. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lochside “Mike Small (minded) who runs (down) the site, has banned me for critical comments because of his ‘Rise’ anti SNP narrative.

      Snap. nearly same, I took him up on his claim that “a second vote for the SNP is wasted”. Banned 🙂

      It’s their loss.

    421. Dr Jim says:

      “Now is not the time”

      A stupid meaningless expression from a stupid vindictive person, because when is the time for anything, well that would be when one element desires a decision from another but the other says NO in the full and certain knowledge they will never say YES but hope to make their expression of NO sound as if it would be YES at some later time and only an idiot would actually believe such fatuous nonsense

      So dispense in your mind that there might be hope that Theresa May will look at the circumstances of the question favourably when the *time is right* because again only an idiot would believe such a thing

      So what is Theresa May doing when she issues such phrases, well in my opinion she’s treating Scots like the idiots she thinks and hopes we are, Theresa May is in the business of promoting people to the job of milk moniter but there’s no milk, but didn’t you feel good for a second because somebody included you in the conversation

      Theresa May’s attitude is that unionists in England are stupid so everybody else is as well because the only people she ever deals with are her own kind because everybody else is wrong so she doesn’t really bother engaging with those types, why would she her only experience of actual people who might think differently has always been from a position of swooping in to an area for private meetings and taking her own supporters with her, it’s a bit like Elvis surrounding himself with only his own fans who’ll tell him he’s was and is great so he won’t know any different and everybody’s happy

      The only time a section 30 order would likely be granted is if Theresa May was confident of winning because the British army was pointing a gun at every citizens head threatening to blow it off if they even thought of voting any other way

      So I believe ditch the conversation altogether over the section 30 nonsense because I also believe the SNP will request one which they have to do, but already have a contingency planned for the obvious answer and aren’t just going to use the refusal as a delying tactic to keep us happy because also the SNP are not stupid and they know that will not work to satisfy Scotland into waiting for some fresh answers at some later to be announced date

      I believe the FMs announcement will have meaning and positivity and the way forward will be clear and unambiguous containing no foggy notes of mibbees ifs and buts or groany noises of doubt that the newspapers are trying to push on us now with their SNP civil war makey uppy piffle between the current FM and the former FM, it’s all diversionary tactics by the unionist media and we should ignore it and keep pressing forward with big smiles on our faces because they’re in the mud up to their knees right now and because of their own indecision and no destination they can’t go forward and they can’t back up so they’ll soon be up to their waists in that mud and that’s when Scotland moves in and cuts the heads off the Bastirts nice and easy

      No fuss no muss

    422. Sarah says:

      @ Crazycat re manifestos. So when the Tories say “an EU referendum was in our manifesto so we have to hold one” – they mean in honour they are obliged to.

      Hahahahaha ROFL.

    423. Dr Jim says:


      I read a manifesto once, it took me about a week
      it’s no wonder they’re not on the best sellers list eh

    424. Shug says:

      Anyone listening to bbc this morning
      They produced some blok that say he told the scottish government about pigeons and a woman who says she did not gwt enough help re breast feeding. Shoddy manipulatwd reporting as usual
      Are these people real or made up

    425. schrodingers cat says:

      re, waiting to know what brexit actually means……….

      this is the correct course of action. brexit is a defining moment for the whole of the uk

      england, with both tories and labour divided, there is no way of knowing how this will effect the actual number of mps each will win in a ge. It isnt really a question of how many MPs the smaller parties will win, but how 10-20% of their respective voters switching allegiance to smaller parties will affect the result of each consistuency vote. although, if may goes with her deal and not no deal, ukip(or another rw party could win very big. I also wouldnt underestimate the effect of 50% of the population (remainers) not being able to vote fore either of the 2 main parties.
      make no mistake, brexit is a seminal moment for everyone and a real game changer

      thats why i agree with nicola about waiting until we know what brexit actually means,

    426. orri says:

      I’m 99% sure there will be no second EU referendum and Brexit will either be aborted or go ahead regardless of there being a deal of any sort. Or at least if a potential indyref2 is a factor there won’t.

      The worst case scenario would be an overall Remain vote dependant on Scotland’s result to push it over the line.

      In that case there’d be no way to prevent English, at a minimum, voters pushing for our expulsion from the UK via indyref2. Be prepared for a torrent of abuse for the whole campaign. Don’t think they’d go for an abolition and final absorbtion of Scotland into England as it wouldn’t achieve anything.

      The other scenarios are , Leave with Scotland agreeing which is unlikely, or more probably Leave with Scotland possibly even more firmly Remain. That latter would definitely settle the quible that we might not be being taken out of the EU against our will, the Scot’s Tory version of agreeing to whatever the UK as a whole decides no matter how strongly we voted against it in the first place scenario.

      The other reason is the obvious that May is an obstinate bitch who embodies the attitude of some who would refuse to do anything the SNP support regardless of how sensible an idea it was.

    427. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Now is not the time.”

      Speaking as a filosipher, surely now is unequivocally the time, otherwise it wouldn’t be now.

      But tomorrow is another day, of course, he Scarletted.

      Ooh, where’s me washboard?

      Sorry, Brexit’s taking its toll on me…..

    428. Nana says:

      Thanks Petra

      “And from what I’ve seen / heard some of those bleating on about wanting a No Deal think it means remaining in the EU, lol”

      Indeed Petra, there’s been a wee survey

      26% of the people Sky asked think “No Deal #Brexit” means we #RemainInTheEU.


      Council staff in England are today being asked to put their names down to undertake election work.

    429. Golfnut says:

      @Dr Jim.

      Well said. A section 30 agreement will be sought by the FM, and for the avoidance of doubt let’s just remember the FM’s take on this. She said, please correct me if I have misunderstood her meaning.

      ‘ I will seek permission from the Scottish Parliament to agree terms with westminster on a Section 30 order ‘.

      In my opinion, for what its worth, the FM should publish Scotland’s terms, onerous terms that highlight Westminster actions during the first referendum, terms that Westminster would refuse.

      There is little doubt in my mind that with or without an Agreement on a Section 30 order, the dissolution of the union will end up in the international courts.

    430. crazycat says:

      @ Sarah at 1.32

      Yes, I think so.

      Obviously if a party keeps on failing to do what it said it would, without the excuse of being in coalition, it risks losing support, but (UK) Labour definitely established that they could not be taken to court for omitting anything.

    431. DerekM says:

      Haha calm down guys its just more made up crap being flung at us the reason it seems alarming is because up to this point the dafty yoons have always used a real story and twisted a spin on it well now it would seem they have gone full lets just make up some crap story and hope it works.

      Its the old we must divide the yes movement from the SNP with a new slant in that it totally reeks of desperation.

    432. Petra says:

      @ Sarah says at 12:59 pm …. ”Petra the long letter you kindly posted [I only collect my Nationals once a week so not seen the paper yet!] about the Treaty was very interesting and gives room for some hope about a legal challenge. It has been said that there isn’t a chance of challenging the Treaty due to passage of time with accumulation of precedents in law, but I prefer the letter’s version!”

      I swithered and dithered about posting it Sarah as most of us on here are already conversant with the Constitutional ramifications of the Treaty of the Union (due to people like Robert P, Maria, Legerwood etc) are aware that there is no written Constitution and that the ToU has been breached on multiple occasions over the last 300 years or so. However it came from another source, I suspect, so provided a good ”back-up” and of course just because nothing has been done previously about the breaches doesn’t mean that we can’t start now with the current fiasco. Will that be the route that Nicola Sturgeon will take?

      For example, I keep thinking of the Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp article which some dismissed previously. Comments from the ”constitutional experts” on here, as to this, would be appreciated.

      …”Ok, so if there were any border and restriction on trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK, as well as Scotland and other parts of the UK, this would in effect null and void the Act of Union, thus technically dissolving the nation of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland into its constituent parts.”..

    433. Dr Jim says:

      Open windae?

      Labour have complained about the FMs inabilty to fly over the rooftops of hospitals and other public buildings to keep us all safe from birds in our own homes and while we are defenceless and in hospitals because of SNP failures in staffing levels protection from birds has diminished in priority

      Labour have learned though a FOI that flying insects have also been seen entering buildings

      OK so you might say that was insensitive because people lost their lives but at the same time do the opposition really think for one second that their supporters thick though they might be are going to become faux outraged by an open windae and the inability to foresee that protection from evil birds was that much of a threat to mankind

      It was a horrible unfortunate occurrence and to use it politically is digusting and shows the low character of those who would use it as such

    434. Graf Midgehunter says:

      To follow up from the Rev’s Twitter – Swiss/Scotland swap – here’s the original “Der Postillon” in Switzerland with the English versions.

      “Der Postillon” is a well known satire publication and yes the Swiss do have humour..! 🙂

    435. DerekM says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter

      Yea that is really funny though i found myself thinking at the end do they know who the guys next door will be and would it be right not to tell them ?

      Hmm moral dilemma lol

    436. geeo says:

      Dr Jim @1.30pm

      Another belter post.

      Re: “now is not the time”

      3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

      That looks pretty clear to me, now IS the time.

    437. orri says:

      The problem with the legalities is that Westminster is of the opinion that they can change what’s legal on a whim.

      Section 30 is the official way, and depending on how you look at it the only way, of moving powers too and from Holyrood.

      It’s by agreement of both governments.

      That’s why it’s the FM asking Holyrood for permission to go to Westminster/May for the power to implement the decision of an independence referendum.

      Now there’s a possibility that our heroic Presiding Officer or others might attempt to prevent legislation passing for a consultative referendum. To do so would however imply that it would directly impact on the UK constitution which would imply that as far as that goes Holyrood already has the power to hold a binding referendum without a Section 30.

    438. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      On to more important issues. AS’s remarks are not helpful at the minute and I had a jubilant unionist laughing at me today that AS was undermining NS. His “generous” remarks that we should just stop this division between the two SNP camps merely indicates to the wider public that there are two camps and they are in dispute.
      I have no idea why the National and the Sunday National are leading with this and I know that AS is not daft.

    439. yesindyref2 says:

      @Graf Midgehunter
      Very good, worth bookmarking.

    440. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill “and I know that AS is not daft

      That’s what I think too, and my feeling is that some of us should just play along with it, react naturally, see where it goes. It’s a similar thing to “SNP MP Angus MacNeil calls for party to change strategy and for Indyref2 to ‘come to fore’” in the Herald.

      I have my theories what’s going on but I’m keeping them to myself 🙂

    441. schrodingers cat says:

      brexit is a game changer for everyone, not just england,

      what will happen in wales if in a ge. tory and labour both support brexit leaving little option for remainers (now over 50%). while there is no obvious place for their vote in england, wales have a party, plaid, in waiting. the question isnt whether plaid will pick up votes but how many

      polls in ni show, in the event of a no deal brexit, 20% of the unionist vote would switch and support an irish re-unification
      referendum. (58% support)

      think about that for a minute. the idea that we could come to this in our lifetime is beyond believe.

      in the event of no deal, the support for yes in scotland rises to 59%. while polls which ask questions about future events, eg if this then what?, can be unreliable, for all sorts of reasons, and that support for yes doesnt always transer to the snp, If, we know that we are facing either a tory no deal brexit or a labour corbyn deal brexit and they then announce a ge, and the polls begin to swing our way (53% and above) the snp could put this in their manifesto

      “the snp’s prefered methode of deciding constitutional issues in Scotland is via a plebicite, ie indyref2, but in view of westminsters continuing decision to refuse the sg a section 30, then the sscottish government will revert back to their (and margaret thatchers) previous method of obtaining a mandate for scottish independence, ie a simple majority of SNP MPs in scotland being elected.

      point being here is that the snp will definitely achieve this
      but what would make it undeniable is if we get over 50% of the vote

    442. Wee Alex says:

      Its all been said before but Brexit has brought out the worst in people. It has exposed the racists and bigots for what they are, including many politicians.

      Its too late to put the genie back in the bottle but equally it presents opportunities. May and Corbyn are the one and same, when it comes to Brexit.

      At the moment patience is what we need, I’d rather wait a few weeks than rush into something that cannot be managed.

      Emotions are running high, the main stream media are already trying to undermine Independence, instead of fighting the obvious mess that Brexit will bring.

      Attacking the SNP is one thing, but they can’t control the democratic process, or can they? Watch this space.

    443. Dr Jim says:

      If there really was a war going on between *factions* of the SNP don’t we think the papers would literally be dripping blood on every page with angry faced pictures and anx ridden pieces by alienated MPs or MSPs from either side bemoaning their strife engulfed beloved party unable to *heal the rift* between this or that *rebel group* *stricken with division*

      Even John Mackay would be requesting a megaphone to shout it even louder on the 6 o’clock STV news with Jackie Burd waiting her turn on BBC Scotland at 6:30pm to wade in with their *BBC have uncovered* predictions of looming SNP *split* *is it the end for the dream of Independence* news, over to Toodle oo the noo to put on a pretendy serious face

      Ya gotta laugh

    444. schrodingers cat says:

      @Graf Midgehunter


    445. geeo says:

      The problem with assuming a need for over 50% of the vote in a GE is that it simply does not happen with any regularity.

      2015 we won all but 3 Scottish seats on bang on 50% of the vote.

      Getting over 50% would be nigh on impossible, so using a GE result is really a non starter and a unionists dream, as it would be relatively easy for them to keep the SNP vote under 50%.

      All we need is a refusal of a S.30 and the SNP to quote the UN charters on self determination.

      3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

      It is a quickstep to the international courts, should treeza pull her “not now” patter.

      We will find out soon enough.

    446. Schrodingers cat

      if 52% : 48% is good enough for Brexit to be pushed through they cannot then turn round and insist on a 60% margin for any indyref.

      Plus that 52% = 17,000,000 +, out of a population of 60,000,00+ , so in fact about 25% or perhaps more realistically 33% of the voting population.

      If we are polling 47% just now, rising to 55%+ after a forced brexit then we are streets ahead of any percentage that the Tories are using to justify brexit.

      Truly the people will have spoken.

    447. cirsium says:

      @Socrates MacSporran, 12.32

      Scottish history is littered with stories of our leaders, arguing among themselves and missing terrific opportunities – this current situation cannot be allowed to become another one on that sorry list.

      I’ve been thinking that as well

    448. geeo says:

      Plus, Meg, English people lack the big stick that we Scots have, namely, Legal Sovereign power.

      The WM gov can simply ignore those 17 million leave voters, and call their electoral bluff (would tory leavers really vote Labour?)

      As WM are about to find out, us Scots are ignored at their peril.

    449. Maybe pigeon shit is Scottish slang for Novichok

      ( no disrespect to those who have died )

    450. galamcennalath says:

      Just think about the Brexit mess.

      I am beginning to wonder if May doesn’t want to be seen as doing a massive u-turn on soft outcome, of EURef2, or cancellation, or even just delay. She doesn’t want history to label her as failing to stick to her position.

      BUT, she has now reached the stage where she must know her planned are totally stuffed.

      SOLUTION, make it look like others are forcing a change of direction upon her.

      The next few days will let us know!

    451. Dr Jim says:


      It’s why I laugh every time I hear these Unionist politicians talk about *the people gave us an instruction and we have to carry it out* drivel when they know perfectly well the people of England are not constutionally sovereign and on many occasions ignore the *will* of the people to pass all sorts of legislation they never even told them about

      The sovereignty of the Westmister parliament is absolute not the will of the people….in England Wales and Northern Ireland that is, in Scotland our ancestors saw it differently, our parliament is there to serve the will of the people

      There is another wee gem our ancestors came up with in that if HM the Queen or her family is overheard to speak or disagree with Scotland’s voice on matters constitutional Scotland can immediately remove her from her position and select (should we so choose) another to take her/his place
      because she’s Queen of Scots not Queen of Scotland which is the opposite position in England where she is Queen of that country but gave her sovereignty over the people to the English Parliament

    452. It really gets tiresome reading about some in the SNP who comment to the British nationalist media about Alex Salmond or about delaying indyref2.

      I wish they would instead concentrate their efforts and energies in getting stuck into and attacking and campaigning against the real enemies of our country of Scotland and people.

      The British nationalists.

    453. ronnie anderson says:

      Tereza not holding a 2nd Brexit ref as it would strengthen the hand of those who wish to break up the UK , noo ah wunner who she referring tae the can is now kicked further down the road .

    454. DerekM says:

      @ Dr Jim

      Yea got to wait until the act is committed that is why we have had this two year brexit shambles of phantom deals with the EU as they try and figure out how to stop us ending the UK.

      Well looking at the old clock time sure is running out.

      And folks need to remember everything the SNP are doing is to try and make the tories jump early though they seem determined to use up as much time as they can,oh and you can bet if they had found a way to stop us and brexit we would not be at this point.

      Plus i would not put it past the tories if we called indy ref2 before brexit that suddenly they would revoke A50 and replay the EU card against us they have the brass neck to try,they dont care about the people of England`s wishes they only care about keeping their greedy mitts on Scotland`s resources and not letting us find out just what is being stolen hence no EU deal for Scotland they cant have those pesky EU sniffing about.

    455. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Getting over 50% would be nigh on impossible, so using a GE result is really a non starter and a unionists dream, as it would be relatively easy for them to keep the SNP vote under 50%…”

      But it’s not just about the SNP – it’s about ALL indy parties i.e. parties with Scottish Independence in their party manifestos:

      GE 2015 (Scotland)

      Indy parties (SNP + Greens) = 1,493,641 (51.3%)
      BritNat parties = 1416824 (48.7%)

    456. orri says:

      I missed a trick,

      EUref2 would demolish any argument against Indyref2 at a stroke.

      It’d either result in a narrow overturning of the original vote or confirm Scotland’s position.

      Participation by Scots couldn’t credibly be portrayed as a willingness to go along with the majority.

      Any result that aborted Brexit against the wishes of the majority in England would lead to unrest and possibly violence.

      Besides which how unfair was it that Gibraltar was allowed a say when they are not in the EU whilst actual citizens resident in the EU might not have been.

    457. Bob Mack says:

      Consider you were Alex Salmond and you thought of going back into politics,but as a member of another indy supporting party.

      Would it not be advisable to distinguish and distance yourself from the SNP? .

      Enough said.

    458. Luigi says:

      If a formal request for a section 30 order is refused, perhaps the spectacle of another SNP walkout from WM would help draw global attention to our treatment by the BritNat establishment.

      Just sayin. 🙂

    459. Robert Louis says:

      Talk of general elections and vote share is baloney. Westminster elections are won or lost on number of seats. Vote share is irrelevant. The winning post in Westminster is number of seats, AND NOTHING ELSE.

    460. Golfnut says:

      ‘ Scottish history is littered with stories…

      It’s also littered with decisive action which brought 29 victories out of the 51 conflicts between Scotland and England.

    461. ronnie anderson says:

      The economic reality of Scotland leaving the UK is that Scotland keeps all its resources . Why o why did Ian Blackford miss this opportunity to get the message out there that Scotland is the backbone of the Westminster Economy .

      TICK TOCK .

    462. orri says:

      If I were Alex Salmond and I stood against an official SNP candidate costing them a seat that might have been theirs then I’d consider very carefully whether independence or feeding my own ego was my primary goal.

      He’d better fucking win the seat if he does or he can go and sit in the pub with Jim Sillars and any other fuckwit who think’s he’s more important than the future of this country.

    463. Bob Mack says:


      The Salmond comeback might only be for Holyrood, not necessarily Westminster. That makes a big difference

    464. geeo says:

      @proud cybernat.

      Good point..!

    465. Footsoldier says:

      We hear a lot from Unionists about the SNP obsession of breaking up the UK.

      Let’s start talking about the Brexit obsession of breaking up the EU. Tit for tat I think – play them at their own game.

    466. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Yes Bar in Glasgow has tweeted that it will be shut for approx a week following plumbing problems.

      Those wishing to meet prior to going to The Social on Thursday, please meet in the Horseshoe around 4, or go straight to The Social and we’ll get you there about 6ish.


    467. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s wet, windy and dark, and pedestrians are rushing around not looking where they’re going.

      Then they get in their cars and rush around, not looking where they’re going.

      HELLO, it’s NOT wet and windy in your car! Meanwhile as they’re driving there’s pedestrians rushing around not looking where they’re going because it’s wet, windy and dark.


    468. Republicofscotland says:

      Okay so we might get a second indyref announced by the FM. However how do we bypass the Section 30 order that Theresa May won’t grant.

      What can be done?

    469. Dr Jim says:

      We don’t need a section 30 order to hold a referendum
      The section 30 order is only requested as a transfer of power of an agreement to recognise the result by Westminster

      If Scotland chooses it can hold a referendum (advisory) and make its case to the UN under the UN charter’s right to self determination for any country who wishes it, to which the UK are signatories

      The UK would then claim it’s an illegal referendum and the ECJ would have to arbitrate because we’re all still members of the EU…then it would be up to the lawyers to decide if Scotland’s *claim of right* is valid which I believe it to be because the Tories passed it through the HOC without noticing what it meant

      Much of all that would depend on the weight of the vote I think, a big win on a big vote might be difficult for anybody not to recognise

      I don’t think that’s the SNP preferred plan because of the risk but it is a plan because it’s certain the Tories will refuse the request for the section 30

      I may not be 100% dead on with this but I’m close

    470. haudonthenoo says:

      Man, the Tories really are insane little englander fruitcakes.

    471. K1 says:

      I think this part of her (May’s) statement today makes it startlingly clear why they will not advocate a second EU ref. It is indeed because they know exactly what this means and so do we:

      ‘I fear a second referendum would set a difficult precedent that could have significant implications for how we handle referendums in this country – not least, strengthening the hand of those campaigning to break up our United Kingdom.’

      That word ‘fear’ tells you everything. It’s dressed up but let’s just undress it:

      *I and my government are shitting ourselves as we know that having a second EU referendum would set the precedent for Scotland to have a second Independence referendum and this would shatter the Brexit process, as Scotland’s rich resources are desperately needed for our trade deals.

      We know that Scotland would choose to become independent as our internal polls very much reflect the same outcome of all other polls, that our short lived victory of Scotland voting No and remaining part of our precious union would be swept away instantly. And this is why we will never allow a second EU referendum.*

      The fact that she’s even stating this should be evidence enough for anyone with a brain to realise that this is all about ‘keeping Scotland’.

    472. K1 says:

      And note how the media do not ’emphasise’ this part of her statement regarding the rejection of a second EU ref, they instead focus on the ‘social cohesion’ pish and that draws people away from the very essence and important part constitutionally speaking, of why they will not allow a second EU ref.

      This is why the msm is despised more and more, they do not report the actual ‘real’ meaning instead focusing on the ‘filler opinions’ aspects of statements made by the likes of May et al.

    473. Dr Jim says:


      Indeed you are correctamundo sir

    474. Famous15 says:

      Advisory referendum does not require agreement but if the result was positive independence could not be denied unless of course the UK also left the UN.

    475. Thepnr says:


      I heard her say it but thanks for posting it. Pretty obvious eh.

      Now you have to listen to Stephen Kerr and May’s response about “the precious Union” and breaking up the United Kingdom, thanks to you this is “hot off the press”.

    476. Ken500 says:

      If migrants have to register they will also get to vote. Permanent status.

      Johnston will have to register along with all the other migrant politicians and their families. Neil, Nelson et al. They will have to register as well. Lose their jobs, get ill, or their spouse earning under £30,000 they are out.

      The total shambles.

    477. ronnie anderson says:

      Ian Brotherhood why not the Courtyard pub 84 West Nile st a working mans pub.

    478. Ken500 says:

      Stephen Kerr – 148 votes

    479. Hamish100 says:

      May seems to have forgotten that there was already a previous referendum re the EU (eec)

    480. K1 says:

      It’s really staggering how obvious all of this is Thpnr.

      How they can chunter away about this ‘precious union’ when one half of what constitutes the UK voted 62% to remain in the EU and has had it’s every suggestion, every piece of input into the Brexit mess and it’s own parliament and WM parliamantarians scorned, its powers being repatriated et al. How they can keep up this fucking ‘rhetoric’ about ‘our precious union’ is beyond laughable, beyond risible and totally beyond absurd and yet here we are!

      It’s like watching people having a complete cognitive breakdown when I watch clips like that.

    481. Packhorse Pete says:


      “Advisory referendum does not require agreement but if the result was positive independence could not be denied unless of course the UK also left the UN”

      Fair enough – but what happens if the result isn’t internationally recognised? Joanna Cherry on this in response to an advisory referendum.

      “Not illegal. Unconstitutional. Therefore result would not be recognised internationally which might be thought to be something of a drawback”

    482. geeo says:

      What plebiscite of LEGALLY SOVEREIGN Scots people can be described as advisory rather than “the settled Sovereign Scots Will?

    483. Ken500 says:

      3 million anti Tory votes.

      300,000+ SNP/Independence votes.

    484. defo says:

      Famous 15
      Has Spain left the UN?

    485. jezza says:

      May is just another closet racist little Englander letting the clock run down and she will then get her No Deal Brexit.

      Like the majority of little Englanders out there, they are blinded by their views that England should not and will not be subservient to any one or any organization. Hence the vote to leave the EU.

      The English just hate furriners,,,end of.

      And they will find out the hard way once they see their country go down the pan after they leave the EU.

      And more importantly without their cash cow that is Scotland.

    486. Robert Louis says:

      Dr Jim at 525,

      Correct. A section 30 is NOT ‘permission’ to hold a referendum, rather it sets out that Westminster will accept the result. Of course Theresa will reject any new request for one, and she and her pals in the lying propagandist BBC will play it up as ‘permission’ not granted.

      The fact is, anybody can hold a referendum. I could hold one if I felt the need. When NS calls the referendum she should not ask, but insist that Westminster proceed with section 30, but if they do not, run hard, hard, hard, that this is London trying to stop Scottish democracy because they KNOW they will lose. And, if Westminster say they are sure they could win, ask what are they afraid of then. This all needs planned before NS insists on section 30, then follows up after 24 hours of nothing by westminster (or rejection), by asserting the Scottish claim of right, as recently fully accepted by the HoC in London.

      You see, if I recall correctly, their is a pitfall for London, and it relates to article 50, which I believe is only valid, if carried out in accordance with the constitutional requirements of the country which is leaving. Clearly, it is an absolute constitutional right of Scotland to hold an indyref, which if denied, may negate article 50.

      Either way, the referendum will be held. You see, it matters not one jot what London says about section 30, because, when the YES vote is delivered, it is very difficult for Westminster to turn around and say, well the people of Scotland voted to end the union, but we in London are not allowing it. It is a wholly untenable position. Indeed, either signatory may end the treaty of union unilaterally, and the only thing Scotland needs is a YES vote from its people. The second the YES vote comes in, the Scotgov should declare the union of treaty of 1707 at an end.

      The only alternative would be for London to send in troops and declare foreign military rule over Scotland. An unlikely scenario. They might all be bas****s, but it is not fascist Spain, and it doesn’t have such a history.

      Once a yes vote is delivered, the international pressure on London to respect the decision would be overwhelming, especially by the EU, who would be delighted to give anti EU Westminster a right good bl*** nose.

      Important also to remember that the brexit referendum was also merely ‘advisory’.

    487. crazycat says:

      @ orri at 4.13

      Besides which how unfair was it that Gibraltar was allowed a say when they are not in the EU.

      Gibraltar is in the EU; at European Parliament elections it is lumped in with Cornwall. I believe at least one of its citizens is on record as having voted for Mebyon Kernow.

    488. ronnie anderson says:

      Tereza’s booked for Dancing on thin ice , she should enthral us all she’s had enough practice in doing the Can Can lol .

    489. Shinty says:

      Stephen Kerr is like a broken fucking record. (same shit, different day).

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