Wings Over Scotland

I think it’s time the SNP stopped trying to save England from itself.

I don’t care for the suggestion that she might be deranged. I really don’t care.

‘Just don’t ask us to identify who the UK cabinet’s Albert Speer might be.’

That cuddly wee petshop boy Micky Gove might just be yer man.

That’s a keeper and couldn’t agree more.

There is an entirely poisonous and contemptuous mindset in evidence throughout Westminster’s Commons chamber toward the other nationalities on these islands. We’ve seen it all too often in many debates. Condescending, dismissive, arrogant and sometimes more than casual ethnic bigotry on display.

Mibbies just me, but not the behaviour you’d normally effect toward a valued partner. Not the actions of people who promote unity or union either. An abusive and domineering partner however… One that takes/mistakes a significant other’s patience and understanding for granted?

Could be that Ms May and indeed the rest of that chamber should be aware that patience can be worn thin and understanding, much like trust, can have its limits.

Personally? At this stage and after their actions of the past several years, I’m pretty much done giving a shit what they think.

Three things

1) To any English person reading this – I (and I presume most of the people here) do not want to see England buggered by Brexit. Firstly because I don’t and secondly we need a stable country to our South.

2) TM – I just cannot see where she is coming from, I am wondering if she might have mental health issues. Plan B is going to be exactly the same as plan A! What is the point.

3) I have a theory. We are living in a giant simulation and the programmers have decided to engineer a scenario whereby there is a choice, a sensible one or a stupid one and the stupid one is chosen. Then they let it run for a while until there is another choice sensible or stupid. My shout out to the programmers. Can you please stop it – it’s not funny anymore.

May doesn’t care about Brexit and she never has. Her goal has always been getting rid of the ECHR so that all those rights for the common man can be removed.

She wants *her deal* (or even *no deal*) as her public-service legacy, and to protect the tax havens of her right-wingers. And she intends to kill Scottish and Northern Irish independence by massive propaganda, electoral manipulation, changing the constitutional law, and ultimately stirring up thuggery and sending in troops. This description all makes sense, and matches her recent behaviour.

I think she’s made two mis-estimations about indy: (a) she’s underestimated our strength of feeling, and (b) she expects us to meet violence with violence. Under no circumstances will we do the latter.

Brilliant article Stu, very well put. Exciting times ahead for us and Ireland,catastrophe for the other nations, which is a real pity.

Super! Your analysis is always excellently logical.

I worked in the Civil Service for many years and received memos and instructions (along with many other people of course) from politicians in the government of the day.

There was a pattern to the type of thing they would wish to see done. The reasoning behind them was always, unsurprisingly, political. They would only do the practical thing if it would lead to them winning a vote, getting higher in the polls or potentially winning a by-election etc.

Viewed in this light, May’s attitude makes perfect sense.

She wishes to keep the DUP onside and part of her government’s confidence and supply agreement. Without them she would have lost the Vote of Confidence by ONE vote. There’s nothing a politician in power wants more than to STAY in power.

They really DO think that short term.

We all know what should have happened is that a cross party commission should have defined what Brexit was and then begun negotiations. Whereas she knowingly negotiated when there was no agreement even in her own party.

She created the situation by not doing so and worsened it by having a snap election and losing her majority, with it she MIGHT have squeaked her current agreement through parliament.

Of course, Labour are doing nothing to help the situation. They’re doing what Labour do best, politicking.

When offered what they said they wanted, ie to be a part of the process, they insisted they couldn’t get involved unless they had a promise (perhaps legislation?)that there would NEVER be a ‘No -Deal Brexit’ despite the co-operation being sought by May to avoid exactly that! I am no fan of May, nor of the Tories, but given the current attitude of Labour she has little wiggle room.

Labour want the Tories to mess this up on their own so that they can maximise their voting potential at the next GE, walk into power and blame EVERYTHING on the Tories (despite their failure to get involved)

But back to the original point regarding Scotland and NI perhaps remaining part of the EU in some form or other. ONLY the SNP will back this and perhaps Sinn Fein and the SDLP – although both of those parties may feel that it may serve their purposes better if a hard Brexit happens and drives voters to demand reunification?

Labour in England may not have a strong view on NI and Scotland’s membership of the UK, but you can bet your bottom dollar SLAB are getting stroppy about it and demanding we are treated just as badly as everyone else, lest we natives start getting uppity again and demanding out independence from the madhouse that is Westminster.

I think SOME kind of arrangement will be reached. Article 50 perhaps extended and some minimal arrangements reached which all sides can agree on. Further down the line May can make trade agreements individually which WON’T be subject to legislation and will be subject to change over time. Issues over the NI border will be fudged and fudged again until such time as we’ve all forgotten about it then slipped through the house on a Wet Wednesday night when no one is looking. This will all take more than a decade to even begin to resolve. If I’m correct it took Greenland about 8 years to resolve their issues and they had much less trade with the EU.

Even for those who wanted Brexit, they must now be wondering what the hell they’ve done. Those in power who wanted Brexit have, or are in the process of, giving away every single thing that the voters thought they were going to get from it. Just ANOTHER opportunity to screw the electorate over, nothing more…

Scotland and NI will get off the bus at the last bus stop on the edge of the cliff, to go to a poll station to say YES.

She is resisting precisely because of Scotland’s wealth. Its a big part of the energy security of the U.K.

JLT agree with almost all you have written – would only change one thing. Your second point should read T May has BRIBED the 17th Century bigots to stay in power…

There is an entirely logical reason for each and every one of her decisions, and those of the establisment’s labour party.

The EU is introducing new tax legislation which will hit British Tax Havens in a way that has never happened before.

That will effect the 1% of the establishment, whose families, have over the centuries, made fortunes (and stashed them) out of the Spice Trade, the Slave Trade, the Opium Trade to China and the collective assets stripped from entire colonies during the British Empire, including India, Africa, Malaysia.

These families – from the Crown, down – own the banks, own the civil service, own the media and every place in it, etc, etc. When they are threatened, in their minds its the same as a threat to the country. Us plebs are merely here to serve.

The only method of preventing the new tax haven legislation from being implemented is to avoid any trade deal that keeps the European Court of Justice adjudicating (since its a one size fits all organisation, and you can’t just drop bits of legislation you don’t like)- which pretty much rules out SM CU membership, or accepting Terrible May’s deal (which uniquely managed to arrange – a limited amount of trade – outwith ECJ rulings.)

No deal has the added benefit of enabling freer and quicker selling off of everything to America, with no safety standards worthy of the name.

With this in mind, it is highly unlikely they will accept any form of extension (under existing trading terms) either as this too would mean the staged implementation of the tax haven legislation will start to be put into effect.

Interestingly the tax haven legislation is not about the EU setting tax rates…. it is about identifying and quantifying existing trust funds and who is liable for them. The tax levied on them would be at UK rates, to the UK Govt…. Wonder how much that is and if it would fit on the side of a bus.

If you think back – no-one expected, or was pushing for TM to start the clock on A50 – she did that all off her own back.

But then the timing was urgent. The tax haven laws came into being on 1/1/19, and will start being implemented in several stages – one in the middle of the year and one next year. The EU accepted that if the UK leaves on 29/3/19 it will not be worth their while pursuing these accounts for a 3 month period.

If you think back, Boris, Mogg, TM, etc all of them were very blasé about SM and CU membership…. until they realised it meant the ECJ, and ECJ meant tax haven legislation.

If you think back, the ECJ was NEVER mentioned, it had all been a rant about ECHR decisions. It was only when they realised the ECJ = tax haven legislation that this became an issue, and immediately ruled out a Norway + or an EEA membership deal of any kind.

NO DEAL, or TM’s DEAL are the only things the establishment were ever aiming and planning for. And TM’s deal is really only there to make it look as if they’ve tried.

They’ve risked Scotland – the empire’s last Cash Cow, at the most vulnerable time in history (given the close result of 2014). That too, makes sense when you look at it from the above motives.

And why not, no deal = food riots = state of emergency = closing down Holyrood = bye bye Indy ref 2 for a very long time.

They are not in the least bit dumb, or out of control, or incompetent. They have a plan and they’ve been executing it all along, with dramatic pantomimes at WM to keep us entertained.

We are running out of time.

This is precisely why Nicola is playing the right strategy (I’m impatient too but it’s a mistake to take the cake out before it’s baked) if we continue to give Westminster enough rope then by March 29th they will have fashioned their own noose…..just like WW ordered all those years ago…..Hold…….Hold………..Hold……………..Hold……………………..NOW

Again,a great piece.Everyone who isn’t blinded by stupidity,can see the way forward. Can’t anyone out there convince the tories that the way forward in this piece was their idea,so that they will follow it? 🙂

She suffers the same bombastic nature as Gordon Brown. An inability to work with anyone else. Remember Clegg saying after the 2010 election that one of the reason’s he teamed up with the Tories was simply because working with Brown would be impossible, May suffers the same ego.

May also wants revenge for some of her disasters as Home Secretary. She was embarrassed over Abu Qatada’s deportation, which as someone mentions above, made her determined to haul the UK out of the ECHR. She has been ridiculed by the legal profession in England because of some of the ridiculous cases she brought forward.

Remember her disasters over immigration control ? Touring Border patrol posts at UK airports while the press lambasted her ? That made her sole policy for Brexit the end of Freedom of Movement, as it is the thing that completely hampered her as Home Secretary. She wants revenge.

That and the fact that I believe she is genuinely a racist. Who can forget the ‘Go Home’ vans.

Stu, good article.

I have written to the EU Commission complaining that ignoring Scotland’s will is a breach of the integrity of the person of Scotland’s sovereign people; I also consider that being dragged/ kicked out the EU without our consent, can also be considered slavery.

I raised similar points with David Martin MEP for Labour, no acknowledgement after 5 days. We’ll see if the EU will give the points I raise a fair examination or will they, like UK Parliament, also say: “you’ll dae whit yer telt”.

We’ll see.

@Daisy Walker

Right on the money Daisy.

I’ve said all along that the british establishment plan is to crash the UK out. They think it will solve all their problems.

They escape the EU tax laws. Very important to them.

Once free of the European court they aim to use the powers they have grabbed from Holyrood to undermine the Scots parliament. They will use the Supreme Court to prevent us doing anything legally to gain independence. We could be forced to use UDI at which point they would use force.

I fear for the future if we don’t get out of this before 29 March.

this should be go mainstream, probably willnae tho, far too sensible

O/T

I had posted a link to an article about the possible effects of stockpiling by British companies now to the future state of British and European economies due to the so called bullwhip effect. I had did a further google on this and quickly came across a Guardian article which says that British companies have been forced to set aside large amounts of cash in order to stockpile.

This is causing a lot of strain to British companies and will continue to do so in the months ahead.

It is obvious that we don’t need to wait until Brexit happens to see the disastrous economic effects of it. Along with job loses and delays to investment which while being blamed on other factors but we all know is due to Brexit, this is another symptom.

How long is it before the comic books that goes for newspapers and the clowns that goes for politicians going to stop fooling around, take responsibility and end this madness?

Not only is your solution perfectly logical -it lets England keep all that money it uses to subsidise us, at a time when they’ll need it to off set Brexit costs and build a base for their nuclear submarines.

Fucks us though, with only our services, oil, whisky, agriculture and tourism to survive on.

This thread mirrors exactly what I was thinking for the past few weeks.
It’s a fact, the Brit establishment hate the SNP so much that they will never listen to or work with them.
England has taken back control and Scotland will do the same. Let them dig their own shite hole.

Come in number 7 or we’ll send oot the bouncing ball

@ronnie anderson

I Patrick Mcgoogled that yesterday for a X-word answer just to be sure and he was No6. 🙂

I never understood it then or even now. That bubble thing!

Legerwood
i dont know enough about ni procedures, but stus article states

“The Good Friday Agreement provided clear and explicit instructions for a reunification vote to be held “if at any time it appears likely to [the Secretary of State] that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”

I dont know how this would be acsertained, but surely if 50% or more of elected MPs, or of the electorate would satisfy the conditions for an iuref?

Is there going to be another Wee Blue Book to inform folks of the facts & falsehoods, etc to clarify to Scotland, or rUK for that matter, as to who’s telling the truth & lies, in the illegal Brex*hit process, and for run up to IndyRef2?

I am not a number……although I drive a Caterham 7.
It’s all getting a bit interesting, and ever nearer to Scottish independence.

Theresa should never have been leader of the Tory party,

Corbyn should never have been leader of the Labour party,

both good parliamentarians but neither have the real ability to lead and make the big decisions.

This whole ‘out before 29th march’ thing seems to not take into account of a small detail, but an important one.

If the Indy PROCESS ie: announced indyref or a protective legal process to end the Union, has started before 29th March, then all protections from international courts and organisations like the UN, should still apply beyond march 29th, surely ?

In that instance, as long as we fire the starting gun before brexit day, its all good in that respect.

Otherwise treeza could just say wait until march 29th and we are actually stuffed.

The fact Nicola is relaxed about timing suggests all is good in that regard.

We need to keep the faith, we have loads of lawyers on our side who know whats what in that regard.

Now is not the time to panic. We can almost see the whites of their eyes, this is the time to stand firm, the battle is almost here, turn away now and we will be trampled underfooot forever.

Remember, we ARE winning.

@Brian Doonthetoon

I was listening to the radio (serial) version of The Prisoner just two weeks ago on DAB Radio 4 extra.
A 1991 hash. Not up to much really

(lots of old serials and comedy on there).

VHS! What is this you speak of? 🙂

Not a Betamax or a Philips 2000 I hope. The good old days.

Control freaks plain and simple, we have everything and they have nothing so their selfishness shines through, we also have handy places to dump their nuke rubbish, deep water anchorages for their minuscule navy and a good supply of poorly paid gullible young guys who are easily hoodwinked into joining up to be used as cannon fodder except today’s cannons have a lot more accuracy and more devastating power.

as for may herself, she’s an only child and has not learnt to share or know how to share so it’s me me me me me me.

Pure check the pure state of this thing not like:
link to twitter.com

Can you see the “lead us Scotland” bullshit via fashion?

John SO knows the score.

As does Wings.

Fly FREE!

call me dave
Bdtt

Ah think it wiz Mr Brotherhood that released the bouncing baw oan me in 2014 when ah wiz doolally but am aw rite noooo

Ant Tax? lol Anti*

People need to understand The Nth Irish assembly was shut down with the intransigence of the DUP ( but that was in the planning ) and thereby the rumour & disinformation mechanism kicked in re the Holyrood Parliament being shut down , big difference between NI & Scotland We ‘re Sovereign , should Tereza try & close Holyrood Parliament then the Scottish Grand Committee can be reformed as the alternative Gov of Scotland .

The WORLD IS WATCHING .

Trending… Scotland:

link to youtube.com

Go find it…

Dakk 5.01pm And mundell’s the deputy reich protector of Scotland.

Ah, well it is all in the mind.
If in your mind the UK is a single indivisible, indissoluble entity, and the UK is indistinguishable and synonymous with the idea of England the Sceptred Isle; then it is unconscionable that any part of it should be excised, partitioned or in any way differentiated.
Even Devolution is a permanent source of angst and a boil which is overdue a lancing. Any process which requires considering a region of that Greater England/ UK/ Great Britain as a seperate political entity is anathema.

It was a UK wide vote, it is a UK political decision made from the heart of UK politics, the Mother of all Parliaments and Supreme Sovereignty under the Crown of Her Brittanic Majesty. Considering otherwise is so far from any frame of reference as to be invisible, imperceptible, unintelligible, quite literally inconceivable – Much as the apocrophyl tale of the natives inability to perceive the Tall Ships of the European explorers.

The continued use of the phrase “UK wide vote” as opposed to “UK vote” is the clue here. A UK vote was a draw – an impasse requiring negotiations to be brokered between equal partners. A UK wide vote was the majority vote of a single entity.

Different minds different perceptions and never the twain shall meet.

schrodingers cat @ 6:55 pm

I think the Stormont Assembly is an essential route by which an approach could be made to the Secretary of State for NI.

In the last election for the assembly there was a one seat difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein.

When it comes to MPs, however, there are 11 unionist MPs to MPs, Sinn Fein and SDLP, who want a United Ireland. The difference in number of MPs between DUP and Sinn Fein is even larger, 8:4.

No Assembly then SoSNI only has MPs to listen to and that means the DUP.

Without the Assembly then getting the issue front and centre is well nigh impossible.

FUCK the television.

Turn up the fucking Radio.

Ah need the music.

Gimme some MORE.

Guitar SOLO!

WATCH!

WOW!

Hamish aye, as always, WE Love you thee offended one, wur doin’ this.

It’s Friday night dude.

Let’s do this…

Do you remember when Labour MP, Ian Murray, had a sticker put on his constituency office window, and the first thing he did was get in touch with the newspapers to report the ‘attack’, the police said no rime was reported.

Then we get this, real intimidation:

link to twitter.com

It’s not just May. It runs much, much deeper than that. It’s what I’ve been saying all along: the supporters of the Union are so fossilised and unwilling to change that they are destroying the very thing they claim to believe in.

They had a prime chance with Smith to fulfil their promises, and failed comprehensively, revealing every single one to be completely hollow.

They had an second chance with Brexit. They could have sought solutions along tbe lines of this article, and instead of consultation and inclusion, it was barefaced theft of even some of the few aspects of autonomy we had. The attitude was “winner takes all” and “Scotland, shut up and get back in your box”.

It’s never going to be otherwise, whether it’s Labour or the Tories in charge, and we have to realise and accept that. The Unionists are institutionally incapable of any kind of reform, adaptation or ceding of genuine autonomy, and instead cling like limpets to top-down rule, with London in charge of everything, no matter what.

It’s the Unionists who are the true enemies of their precious Union. And right now are busily wrecking it beyond repair.

It’s high time to protect our own, in our own way.

The sovereign people of Scotland and Northern Ireland are shortly going to to say “stop the bus”and have a vote for independence and reunification and the uk is done.
We have to guard against all the nazi propaganda on Facebook.

Let’s see some FUCKIN’ EMOTION frae ye Scotland…

THE FUCKING SKY REMAINS!

FUCK!!

Iain – correct me if I’m wrong but the people of NI are not sovereign.

You are absolutely right, my mistake they are a province of England.
Still I hope sense will win through.

@ Legerwood at 8.26

When it comes to MPs, however, there are 11 unionist MPs to MPs, Sinn Fein and SDLP, who want a United Ireland. The difference in number of MPs between DUP and Sinn Fein is even larger, 8:4.

Those are the results of the 2015 Westminster election –
8 DUP
4 Sinn Féin
3 SDLP
2 UUP
1 Independent (Sylvia Hermon)

In 2017, the polarization increased:
10 DUP
7 Sinn Féin
1 Independent (still Sylvia Hermon)

The more moderate parties on both sides (UUP, SDLP) were obliterated.

This makes no difference to the totals on each side, or to the point you were making, but it does potentially reflect a change in the electorate’s attitude (FPTP makes it harder to tell; I haven’t gone through the results totting up the votes for the losing candidates).

Ah dig ye Cactus…ah feel like a little bit of bad company the night 😉

link to youtube.com

crazycat @ 9.18pm

Thank you for the correction. I did not notice I was looking at the 2015 GE results. As you say more polarised in 2017 than 2015.

Do we know if there was any ‘dark money’ thrown into the NI elections in ’17 like there was in Scotland to achieve that ‘perception’ of polarisation?

@ Legerwood

You’re welcome. (I have an unhealthy obsession with election results; if I had realized in my youth that psephology was a potential career choice, you might now be having to listen to me instead of John Curtice – a lucky escape all round!)

@Giesabrek says: 18 January, 2019 at 4:53 pm@

” … I think it’s time the SNP stopped trying to save England from itself.”

Nah! giesabrek, no one wants their next door neighbour to be a poverty stricken, crippled, down at heel beggar. If for no other reason than it lowers the tone of the neighbourhood and makes the price of all property fall.

“Jeez, what a time to be alive. I almost want to die.”

The Rev I M Jolly couldn’t have put it better lumilumi.
You’re in.
🙂

The EU is reforming through structured progressive policies across a wide range of domains unlike the ignoble political thinkers of WM who continue on the trajectory to make everyone poorer (unless one is able to move one’s assets around the world of global hedge funds and tax dodges )and condemn citizens to a precarious life.
Separation is messy, expensive and impossible to do cleanly and that is why Scotland, the country, will remain in the EU on her own terms. Meanwhile rUK will continue with its ostrich politics- the Dutch have a word for that ‘Struisvogelpolitiek’.

The EU proposes;

‘Citizens’ Contract of “Sustainable Democracy For All”
Political Declaration by the European Council on the importance of strong tripartite and social dialogue in a well-functioning social market economy
Provide for a legal framework to allow independent civil society to function without government interference across the whole of the EU
Foster at national, regional and local levels the role of public or publicly regulated non-profit enterprises to build eco-social public services. A European “Responsible Business” label to allow people to identify whether a given company ensures social and environmental responsibility, and good corporate governance
A harmonised European definition and a ban of dodgy tax schemes that exist in different Member States
An ambitious European anti-poverty plan to improve the situation of all people at risk of poverty or social exclusion, reduce the number of people at-risk-of-poverty or social exclusion by 25 million people for 2030, and by an additional 50 million for 2050
A European Child Guarantee to mitigate the damaging effects of poverty on children’

link to progressivesociety.eu

I was talking to my mate who lives in Finland earlier; he’s having to try to find ancient documents for proof of this/that/the other, so I might have to visit his dad’s house because there’s ladders involved in finding said documents. He wants to know just what the f*** we’re playing at. He knows that it wasn’t US us but, you know…

Well what a change from the last few days.

This thread has been full of interesting,informative & funny posts.

Long may it continue.

Great post and comments, really enjoying reading it.

FWIW, my take on May’s behaviour is that she’s behaving like a blackmail victim.

Remember Blair’s behaviour? We all, at different points perhaps, realised that he wasn’t in charge, that he was being instructed by someone else. All the “I had to make that decision” bluster he came out with as a justification, even after all the inquiries and condemnation…well, he had to say something, didn’t he? And what would they be blackmailing him about? That’s a big net right there so use that to find it yersel, and if ye’re genuinely clueless trying starting with his full name (check Wiki) and search for that with ‘Miranda’.

What would they blackmail May with? I’m not even going there because I don’t know, but we do know she was Home Secretary when a lot of material incriminating (largely Tory) politicians ‘went missing’. We already know – at least some of! – what they had on Cameron, so I don’t understand why so many raise an eyebrow when it is suggested that these characters may have found favour with the Establishment because they have dark secrets.

May’s behaviour since she became PM suggests that she is being told what to do every step of the way, and that she’s powerless to disobey or even express serious dissent. I find JLT’s analysis persuasive, but I don’t believe May is a ‘real’ megalomaniac, not even a narcissist – she looks, to my untrained eye, like a very damaged individual who has become used to being told what to do and has learned to do it (sometimes brilliantly) without protest or self-pity. Her sheer stubbornness really is extraordinary – it’s almost as if she doesn’t even register the pressures which have already crushed many around her. Who knows? – perhaps she has already been so personally crushed that these forces don’t hurt much.

Ach, mibbe I’m just a big softy, but part of me does feel pity, not just for her, but everyone who’s been damaged by ‘British’ exceptionalism and obsession with ‘duty’.

(P.S. Ronnie Anderson, that was my missus’s big exercise ball, I lobbed it into the sea off Stevenston beach – it frightens the punters at various points up and down the West coast but it always comes back.)

😉

Sorry about this, but if anyone tried to correct me about the use of the word “country”, I’d either just ignore them, or quote the dictionary definition:

link to dictionary.cambridge.org

“country
an area of land that has its own government, army, etc.:”

The UK has all that. It’s not an “AND” definition, so Scotland also qualifies under that as we have a government. Other definitions have it as relating to “nation”.

Language is living, we should live with it or all speak Latin!

“The UK has all that. It’s not an “AND” definition, so Scotland also qualifies under that as we have a government.”

You cannot have a country within a country.

If you accept Scotland is a country then what’s the UK?

It’s a ‘Union’ (of 3 countries + a province).

@Proud Cybernat
Language is about communication. Or should be.

To put it into our context, trying to persuade undecideds or soft noes to vote YES, if one of them asks “Why should I vote YES, why should Scotland become independent of the country of the UK?” and instead of giving them good reasons to vote YES, we give them an earful of bipartites, arm-waggling 3 centuries, riots in the streets and frankly, pretty weird redefinitions of common words, we’ve totally lost their interest.

And if in an article like this some weird constructs of words is used instead of the simple understdable word “country”, the article loses its point, its thrust, and its effectiveness.

Language is for use, not pedanticismicity! I guess you could say it’s for peasants, not pedants.

He UK’s descriptin of what it is in the UN should be fairly accurate, if memory serves the UK describes itself as Two Nations, a principality and a provence or did i just make that up!

Proud Cybernat says:
18 January, 2019 at 10:47 pm

You cannot have a country within a country.

San Marino.

link to en.wikipedia.org

@Liam “(What came before that?)”

Ugh [smacks other caveman with animal bone]

Lovely thread today and tonight…well done all of us…smirk. 😉

@cynicalHighlander –

Nah, you’ve got me there…

Another thing about May though – her husband is insanely wealthy, isn’t he? Why on earth would she put up with this 24/7 shite when she knows he can magic them both away to anywhere on earth overnight? Makes no sense at all at all…

Tail wag dog scenario in prospect?

May’s Brexit deal has been rejected and she has been utterly humiliated even though she doesn’t appear to have enough sense to realise it.
Yes – May’s mayhem is getting almost interesting.
Judging by the news coverage it seems the option of the so-called people’s vote is now being looked on as more likely and I have been mulling over the possible outcome. I’ll make it as brief as possible but will show enough arithmetic for enthusiasts to check the figures. Others can just skip the numbers and go to the conclusion.

There have been recent polls eliciting voting intentions in Scotland (S), Wales (W) and Northern Ireland (NI), though nothing coherent with reference to England (E).
Taking percentage figures for Remain/Leave (R/L) ratio,
S in 2016 voted 62/38 but polls now suggest 70/30
W in 2016 voted 47.5/52.5 but polls now suggest 50/50
NI in 2016 voted 55.8/44.2 but polls now suggest 69/31

Relating these swings (note all are towards R) to the number of votes cast in each country means the following numbers would be added to the UK R total, and of course subtracted from the L side.

S 214,468 + W 41,113 + NI 104,495 = Total 360,076. which at first glance doesn’t seem much in the context of 33,551,983 votes cast UK wide.

But don’t despair.
The 2016 UK R/L result was 16,141,241/ 17,410,742 votes and correcting these figures by the poll results for S, W and NI, gives a predicted 2019 UK R/L result of 16,510,317/ 17,050,666 votes
The difference is 549,349 votes in favour of L so for a draw we’d need 274,675 English voters to change from L to R.
There were 28,455,372 votes cast in England so we need a swing of
274,675 /28,455,372 = 0.96% to break even.
Every other part of the UK has shown a swing towards Remain so a 1% change of heart in England is surely within the realms of possibility?

Now the good bit.
To achieve this critical result the English vote R/L ratio would be
(13,266,966 + 284,675) / (15,188,406 – 284,675)
= 13,541,641 / 14,913,73
That is an English Brexit R/L ratio of 47.6/ 52.4 in favour of Leave

Imagine it. The big imperialist bully kept in the EU against it’s will by the combined will of the minor partners in this great family of nations.

What then? England demanding independence from UK?
Or May telling us now IS the time, just go Scotland, no Article 30 permission required, in fact no Indyref2 required!
Smiley faces with saltires definitely required.

Re the section 30 comments. Ever wonder why Cameron did not risk refusing AS a referendum? This is from the guidance notes on the 1998 Act for Schedule 5. They’re unchanged….

Schedule 5 of the 1998 Act does not list devolved matters. Nor does it list specific functions which are reserved. Instead it sets out subjects where legislative competence has been reserved to the UK Parliament. The approach varies, but in general the reservations have been expressed in broad terms – typically by general descriptions of the subject or by reference to the subject matter of a particular Act. Where exceptions are made to these reservations, these are also typically expressed in fairly general terms (though it stands to reason that greater detail is used than in the reservations themselves).
4. This approach was adopted deliberately when drafting the
1998 Act, to allow the courts to take a broad approach to the interpretation of Schedule 5 and,in particular, to consider the intended coverage of reservations instead of relying on an unduly literal approach. It is important that this should not be undermined by a series of unduly detailed section 30(2) Orders, not least because this could cast doubt on the interpretation of existing more general reservations.

Ian Brotherhood says:
18 January, 2019 at 11:35 pm

Oh Ian he rammed a foreign vehicle tother day.

The UK is ruled by the monarchy always has been.

Just flying a kite and maybe someone else has suggested it, but it would not surprise me one bit if an amendment was added to Mays plan B, that she didn’t like, but it passes anyway. She would then (be told?) to wait until the the last minute that she could and call a general election to run down the clock until Brexit passes by default.
I know about the fixed term parliament act, but I get the feeling that something along these lines is going to happen.
Or maybe I’m talking pure balderdash. On stilts of course! But hey, you can bet one of the crazy fools down there have been jibber jabbering such an idea.

There is a War coming, a well thought out war that will close every democratic process, it will close all the UK assemblies and parliaments .. excluding the sovereign Westminster.

Everything you see before you is a smoke screen, an attempt to confuse you, divide you, and instil you with utter FEAR !!

WAR IS COMING. WAR IS COMING.

Stephen Bush, political editor of the New Statesman, wrote an article earlier today stating that 3 cabinet ministers and 6 junior ministers were getting prepared for a GE, whether reports like this have legs I don’t know, but it certainly seems like it ‘could’ be a possibility if this article is accurate:

‘At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date.

In addition, a further two associations reported that speakers had suggested moving fundraising events to accommodate a possible contest.

One minister, who holds a marginal seat in the south, has already designed and written their election address, as has another with a safe seat in the south east; one north-east association has likewise been instructed to provide election material. All have been asked to expedite re-adoption procedures. (Under Tory party rules, sitting MPs face a vote of their local executive if they wish to continue on as the party’s candidate.)

One association chair was told that the only way to break the deadlock was an election, while another has been informed that even should the withdrawal agreement pass, it will not be done so in a way that retains the support of the DUP, without which the Conservative Party cannot continue to govern.

Although in theory the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act takes the timing of an election out of the Prime Minister’s hands, in practice, should Theresa May request one it would be forthcoming as the opposition is bound to vote for it.

link to archive.is

I forgot to mention Maeve. Always one of my favourites in “history”.

More like Walker 🙂

Ian Brotherhood says:
19 January, 2019 at 12:08 am

Lost me there to be honest.

My take is that this imaginary democracy in the UK is a total sham from start to finish. When has any of the media challenged the HoL over its changing of laws over us plebs, never as far I know. That the unelected head of state can enoble people in control of that ability to change laws yet the voters have no say whatsover, similar to China no.

Hey cactus thanks for music links and I forget who (apologies) over the Dana “Those were the days” link.

Thanks to both.

My opinion, stated for many years, is that May was always been the anointed leaderine of the ultra right cabal. I could see no other explanation for the exoneration she inexplicably enjoyed for all the major errors she made in her ministerial roles, mistakes which would have seen the back of any other miscreant.

That cabal extends way beyond the theater/pantomime of elected representatives and way into into the military/industrial complex and that population opinion control unit aka the media.

I do not believe for an instant, that May was a genuine remainer. She may well have voted remain as part of the deception, after all what is one vote? But her, a remainer? IMO, she is not. She is a fully fledged member of that ultra right cabal.

Her position on trying to leave the ECHR made that abundantly clear to me.

So who is the ultra right cabal and what do they actually want?

My assessment is that they are roughly 1/4 of elected representatives, about 1/2 of the media, about 20% of the actual population and 50+% of the industrial/military complex.

What they want is the transformation of democracy in the UK into a totalitarian, overtly oligarchical, elitist regime while preferably, more in hope than expectation, avoiding the labels ‘fascist’/’Nazi’.

The soon to be choice for the people of Scotland : NICOLA’s DEAL!

Re: GE.

Because of the fixed term parliament act, labour would require to agree to one, and despite all his bluster, i do not believe for a second Labour want one before brexit happens, in case they somehow win.

Corbyn’s plan seems to me, to agitate and posture for a GE, knowing it ain’t going to happen, then try get one after brexit has exposed/unleashed it’s shitstorm on the uk (with or without Scotland).

The problem is, once in power, presuming labour do not campaign to save the day by re joining the EU, they still inherit a total shambles.

Throw in WM losing Scottish resources after we man the lifeboats, the winner of any upcoming post brexit/indy election, inherits a disaster consumed by a catastrophe.

There will be an awful lot of English voters, and especially those who voted Leave, utterly furious when they find out they need 40 kilo’s of tenners to buy a Greggs vegan sausage roll after the biggest run on the Pound in history and a cardboard box is worth more than their houses as even workers are taxed into homelessness.

Does Corbyn REALLY want to inherit that shambles ?

I say not.

Interesting times ahead huh ?

I’ve been thinking about who is entitled to campaign in a referendum about a country regaining its position as an equal with all others.

Surely it is an “internal” matter and should only be voted on by the residents of that country. As happened in 2014.

Am I right in thinking that parties and funding from outwith a country are normally banned from that country’s elections?

In which case, can we not exclude all funding, campaign assistance etc etc from England and from the English parties? They interfered in an internal matter in 2014. If their voices, funds, and bussed in activists had been excluded, don’t you think the outcome would have been different?

The more I think about it, the more outrageous and weird it seems that the English parties and supporters were involved at all.

What a pity Labour is such a toothless tiger. Tories are tories but Labour….well.I wonder how they will look back on these times. Lost opportunities everywhere