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The Prisoners

Posted on January 18, 2019 by

You wouldn’t know it to watch the black-hole-scale mess our politicians are making of it, but the thing about Brexit is that it ISN’T an insoluble problem. That two of the supposed “partners” in the United Kingdom are being forced out of the EU against the will of their people is a political choice, not a necessity.

There are numerous perfectly viable ways to practically address the fact that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted Remain while Wales and England voted Leave, none of which are especially outlandish.

Last July this site put forward an idea that respects the referendum result in all four constituent nations and would have wide public support. Yesterday the Guardian published a variant on the concept with lots of strong technical detail. And earlier this week we suggested another approach which could break the current deadlock.

But the stupendously incompetent Tory executive running the government, and the equally useless notional Labour “opposition”, have both handcuffed themselves across the emergency exits, preventing any hope of escape from disaster as the country burns down around everyone’s ears.

We no longer have a union. We have a hostage situation.

Even large numbers of Tories agree that a no-deal Brexit would risk the break-up of the UK. David Mundell has said so, and more strikingly the Prime Minister herself has said so. Yet she’s doggedly pursuing a course of action that can lead nowhere else, and we’re not sure that even she could explain why.

Because we know from the Withdrawal Agreement, with its Irish backstop, that the PM has already conceded the idea of parts of the UK effectively being in the EU while others are out. So what conceivable reason could there be to object to Scotland being in the same customs area? Who would that hurt?

Even from Theresa May’s viewpoint, what consequence of that arrangement would be worse than the certain consequences of a no-deal that would turn Scottish opinion dramatically in favour of independence by almost a 20-point margin?

Never mind the morality, never mind whether you’re actually Remain or Leave – there’s simply no good reason to force Scotland and Northern Ireland into something they don’t want. Neither England nor the UK as a whole benefits in any way from riding roughshod over the democratic wishes of the Scots and the Irish.

A no-deal Brexit would almost force the reunification of Ireland. It would become the only pragmatic solution to the impossible situation of the UK – which left the EU ostensibly to protect its borders – having no control over the only land border it actually has. (Or the shattering catastrophe of reinstating one after more than 20 years.)

(And unlike Scotland, the UK can’t simply say “Now is not the time”. The Good Friday Agreement provided clear and explicit instructions for a reunification vote to be held “if at any time it appears likely to [the Secretary of State] that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”, and polling suggests that that would indeed be the case.)

So why does the PM so pathologically resist any course of action which would actually save her “precious union”, rather than destroy it?

Sheer spite? Does she hate Scots and Irish people so much that even while drowning, she would harpoon them rather than let them throw her a lifeline? Perhaps.

Is it pure stubborn stupidity? Is she so besieged and embattled, so full of knife wounds in her back and front alike, that she’s simply lost any ability to see obvious sense, because she trusts no-one? That could well be a more likely explanation, albeit an incredibly dangerous and unsustainable frame of mind for a country’s leader to be in.

But the honest truth, readers, is that we just don’t know. Almost nothing Theresa May has done since July 2016 – when she voluntarily took charge of delivering an outcome that she voted against and doesn’t believe in, yet is now the country’s most implacable advocate of – has any relationship to logic or reason.

The whole mess has echoes of Adolf Hitler’s determination in 1945 that should Germany be defeated, its enemies would conquer nothing but a pile of ashes and ruins, shattered from within by a petulant suicidal orgy of destruction.

Just don’t ask us to identify who the UK cabinet’s Albert Speer might be.

They say you should never interrupt your enemy while they’re making a mistake. As supporters of Scottish independence a no-deal Brexit has a massive and obvious upside for us, and if the Conservative Party wants to force it on us we’ll take it gladly. But let nobody ever say that we sat back quietly and didn’t even try to stop the country, in a spirit of comradely solidarity, from charging to its doom.

If you love someone, you’re supposed to set them free. Theresa May is clinging so tightly around the neck of the UK that she’ll go down in history as the person who choked it to death.

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    1. 18 01 19 17:56

      The Prisoners | speymouth

    349 to “The Prisoners”

    1. call me dave says:

      On the money!

      I used the ‘hostage’ a while back in a post which expressed how I saw the Scotland and her people.

      I’m optimistic that we will be independent soon and even buying green bananas again in anticipation of living to see it. 🙂

    2. Giesabrek says:

      I think it’s time the SNP stopped trying to save England from itself.

    3. Ghillie says:

      Lost in her own Stockholm Syndrome?

    4. CmonIndy says:

      I don’t care for the suggestion that she might be deranged. I really don’t care.

    5. geeo says:

      It really is a sad state of affairs when a perfectly reasonable solution cannot be seen to come from Scotland, non unionists, or a guy and a computer somewhere deep behind enemy lines..!!

      Maybe treeza actually thinks if she says “not now”, that Nicola will simply shrug and say “dammit”.

    6. dakk says:

      ‘Just don’t ask us to identify who the UK cabinet’s Albert Speer might be.’

      That cuddly wee petshop boy Micky Gove might just be yer man.

    7. Ruglonian says:

      So many good points – if only the press was saying the same, then maybe folk would realise how the UK was being slowly suffocated before their eyes.

      That Scotland, and NI, may choose to take a different approach to the future is viewed as an element of hostility through the ‘brexit cos Britain’s so great’ lens.

      If there was any kind of proper perspective to this situation then our option for Scottish Independence would be seen as the rational choice that it is – unfortunately we may well have to proceed regardless.

    8. Macart says:

      That’s a keeper and couldn’t agree more.

      There is an entirely poisonous and contemptuous mindset in evidence throughout Westminster’s Commons chamber toward the other nationalities on these islands. We’ve seen it all too often in many debates. Condescending, dismissive, arrogant and sometimes more than casual ethnic bigotry on display.

      Mibbies just me, but not the behaviour you’d normally effect toward a valued partner. Not the actions of people who promote unity or union either. An abusive and domineering partner however… One that takes/mistakes a significant other’s patience and understanding for granted?

      Could be that Ms May and indeed the rest of that chamber should be aware that patience can be worn thin and understanding, much like trust, can have its limits.

      Personally? At this stage and after their actions of the past several years, I’m pretty much done giving a shit what they think.

    9. Dr Jim says:

      Oh that’s a good one Stuart and extremely well described, everything everybody thinks but captured and written down without meandering around so folk can take it in in a few paragraphs

      Brilliantly written

    10. Tom says:

      Three things

      1) To any English person reading this – I (and I presume most of the people here) do not want to see England buggered by Brexit. Firstly because I don’t and secondly we need a stable country to our South.

      2) TM – I just cannot see where she is coming from, I am wondering if she might have mental health issues. Plan B is going to be exactly the same as plan A! What is the point.

      3) I have a theory. We are living in a giant simulation and the programmers have decided to engineer a scenario whereby there is a choice, a sensible one or a stupid one and the stupid one is chosen. Then they let it run for a while until there is another choice sensible or stupid. My shout out to the programmers. Can you please stop it – it’s not funny anymore.

    11. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Oh my!

      This is like my post on the previous thread except Stu is more eloquent & expansive.

      Totally agree.

    12. Balaaargh says:

      May doesn’t care about Brexit and she never has. Her goal has always been getting rid of the ECHR so that all those rights for the common man can be removed.

    13. manandboy says:

      To this point there is no known explanation, logical or rational, for the conduct of Theresa May, her advisors or the Tory Party.
      The likelihood therefore is that, in fact, a strategy is being deployed, the net effect of which is that everyone is left in the dark, scratching their heads in bewilderment and frustration.

      No Prime Minister in British history has behaved like Theresa May has in the past two and a half years.

      Can it really be a coincidence that May’s conduct matches the political philosophy of one Vladizlav Surkov, strategist for Vladimir Putin?

    14. Derek Rogers says:

      She wants *her deal* (or even *no deal*) as her public-service legacy, and to protect the tax havens of her right-wingers. And she intends to kill Scottish and Northern Irish independence by massive propaganda, electoral manipulation, changing the constitutional law, and ultimately stirring up thuggery and sending in troops. This description all makes sense, and matches her recent behaviour.

      I think she’s made two mis-estimations about indy: (a) she’s underestimated our strength of feeling, and (b) she expects us to meet violence with violence. Under no circumstances will we do the latter.

    15. Robert Louis says:

      This article is just superb. Seriously.

      Taken with the others which suggest ways around ALL the brexit problems, it illustrates the complete inability of westminster to actually seek a solution. Instead they just want to tell Scots what to do.

      The real irony is that Theresa May herself has said that disrespecting the decision by voters (for brexit), would cause them to lose faith in politics. What about Scotland??? What about the fact that every single freaking constituency in Scotland voted to remain. Every single one. What about THEIR views???

      England wants to leave the EU, but just decides to take Scotland with it, no doubt because in true colonial fashion, they believe ‘Scotland belongs to them’.

      One last point, this phrase;

      We no longer have a union. We have a hostage situation.

      sums things up like no other writer has. England wants to jump off the cliff, but rather than get on with it, it wants to drag all of Scotland and N.Ireland with it as well. That is NOT a partnership. Not now, not ever.

      Let’s hope that when they go, they take bojo the clown with them.

    16. Morgatron says:

      Brilliant article Stu, very well put. Exciting times ahead for us and Ireland,catastrophe for the other nations, which is a real pity.

    17. Benhope says:

      Remember not so long ago we were not (permitted) overseas flights from Scotland, apart from US flights from Prestwick. All flights had to be routed through Heathrow.

      Now most shipping is routed through Tilbury and Felixstowe. Forth Ports ensures there is no major investment in Leith or Dundee. It is long past time our ports were developed to take our container traffic directly to Europe. Especially now the hard border is coming at Gretna and Berwick.

    18. Az says:

      Super! Your analysis is always excellently logical.

    19. Capella says:

      The problem is that nobody knows who is demanding BREXIT.
      Is it
      the Banksters
      US oligarchs
      UK oligarchs
      All of the above
      None of the above

      If it’s the UK oligarchs then maybe the plan is to be out of the jurisdiction of the EU before transparency on off-shore banking becomes active in April this year.

      If it’s the US oligarchs then they are funding far right political groups throughout Europe. They funded LEAVE and provided the technical support to target millions of voters. They did the same in Germany to secure a resurgence in AfD.

      Does Washington want the EU broken up?

      Does American business want unrgulated access to UK markets?

      (I take it for granted that the arch criminal Vladimir Putin is behind everything anyway)

      Who benefits from this chaos?

    20. Gary says:

      I worked in the Civil Service for many years and received memos and instructions (along with many other people of course) from politicians in the government of the day.

      There was a pattern to the type of thing they would wish to see done. The reasoning behind them was always, unsurprisingly, political. They would only do the practical thing if it would lead to them winning a vote, getting higher in the polls or potentially winning a by-election etc.

      Viewed in this light, May’s attitude makes perfect sense.

      She wishes to keep the DUP onside and part of her government’s confidence and supply agreement. Without them she would have lost the Vote of Confidence by ONE vote. There’s nothing a politician in power wants more than to STAY in power.

      They really DO think that short term.

      We all know what should have happened is that a cross party commission should have defined what Brexit was and then begun negotiations. Whereas she knowingly negotiated when there was no agreement even in her own party.

      She created the situation by not doing so and worsened it by having a snap election and losing her majority, with it she MIGHT have squeaked her current agreement through parliament.

      Of course, Labour are doing nothing to help the situation. They’re doing what Labour do best, politicking.

      When offered what they said they wanted, ie to be a part of the process, they insisted they couldn’t get involved unless they had a promise (perhaps legislation?)that there would NEVER be a ‘No -Deal Brexit’ despite the co-operation being sought by May to avoid exactly that! I am no fan of May, nor of the Tories, but given the current attitude of Labour she has little wiggle room.

      Labour want the Tories to mess this up on their own so that they can maximise their voting potential at the next GE, walk into power and blame EVERYTHING on the Tories (despite their failure to get involved)

      But back to the original point regarding Scotland and NI perhaps remaining part of the EU in some form or other. ONLY the SNP will back this and perhaps Sinn Fein and the SDLP – although both of those parties may feel that it may serve their purposes better if a hard Brexit happens and drives voters to demand reunification?

      Labour in England may not have a strong view on NI and Scotland’s membership of the UK, but you can bet your bottom dollar SLAB are getting stroppy about it and demanding we are treated just as badly as everyone else, lest we natives start getting uppity again and demanding out independence from the madhouse that is Westminster.

      I think SOME kind of arrangement will be reached. Article 50 perhaps extended and some minimal arrangements reached which all sides can agree on. Further down the line May can make trade agreements individually which WON’T be subject to legislation and will be subject to change over time. Issues over the NI border will be fudged and fudged again until such time as we’ve all forgotten about it then slipped through the house on a Wet Wednesday night when no one is looking. This will all take more than a decade to even begin to resolve. If I’m correct it took Greenland about 8 years to resolve their issues and they had much less trade with the EU.

      Even for those who wanted Brexit, they must now be wondering what the hell they’ve done. Those in power who wanted Brexit have, or are in the process of, giving away every single thing that the voters thought they were going to get from it. Just ANOTHER opportunity to screw the electorate over, nothing more…

    21. Rev, in order for this to come to fruition, the U.K. Gov would have to transfer a lot of powers to Holyrood and that is what IMHO they are terrified of!

    22. wull2 says:

      Scotland and NI will get off the bus at the last bus stop on the edge of the cliff, to go to a poll station to say YES.

    23. JLT says:

      Yet she’s doggedly pursuing a course of action that can lead nowhere else, and we’re not sure that even she could explain why

      Because for Theresa, it’s about winning. It’s about proving the point ‘that I’m in charge’. And if need be, it’s proving to you that I’m right’.

      I would she’s developed over the last couple of years (and probably not even realised) a fair streak of the old megalomania. From having both sides shout at her; from having Europe ridicule her; from having the media mock her dancing (whether at Conference or promoting British interests in Africa), the PM has taken a fair battering just about every day since being elected PM. Even half of her cabinet either speak out against her; embarrass her (Johnson) or they resign.

      For most folk when they are fighting huge fires all around them, they usually either admit that they have handled the job badly and are going to resign or they sensibly sit down and look for compromise if they can.

      Not Theresa.

      Her first biggest mistake literally began on day one when she became PM. Boldly stating that she was aiming for a 100% exit from the EU based on a 52% win was utterly foolish. Straight away, she’s alienated half of the country. She should have told Brexiteers from the start that they the dream that envisioned was NOT going to happen. It would be give and take.

      Not Theresa.

      Her second biggest mistake was climbing into bed with the 17th Century bigots of NI. By making mealy-,outh Foster the spokesperson for NI …even though NI had voted to Remain was another huge clanger. Foster and Co just muddied the waters even further with demands that NI will not accept any agreement different from England (and therefore, alienated the nationalists (and basically 50% of the Northern Irish)). Most politicians would have steered clear of the DUP.

      Not Theresa.

      Then for some bizarre reason. She completely ignores everything that has happened in the sister nation; one that is in Union with England and supposedly an equal partner. Even when her own Scottish Tory party members are telling her ‘don’t ignore the Scottish people whatever you do …she does. Now the biggest threat to the Union as well as Brexit is slowly creeping into play as IndyRef2 is quietly mentioned. Did she listen?

      Not Theresa.

      And forget Scotland ever getting a deal to be allowed to stay in the EU. For the Establishment of London, while they like to lord it over Scotland and hold us in fair contempt, they also fear what would happen if Edinburgh did have a say in the EU. How many companies would move to Scotland? Would the standard of living increase while Englands declines since wages would go up in an EU-Scotland? Would the Scots grow in confidence and actually see self-governance as a real option after all if Scotland is seen to trade effectively with the EU. So will Theresa allow Scotland to stay in the EU …absolutely no f****** chance!!

      Everyone of these points above show someone who is refusing to look, listen or even understand the reality of what is happening. Personally, I believe Theresa has taken such a battering from everyone, that rather than being worn down with it all, she’s now so determined to win …no matter the cost. If she can achieve Brexit, whether it is a Hard Brexit; a Soft Brexit; a Brexit that keeps NI in but the rest of the UK out …she’s determined to deliver it. She’s so determined to win; irrespective of the advice or compromises offered, that she doesn’t care. I believe in her head, ‘I’m in charge. It’s my way. You’ll all have to get onboard and suck it up if you have too …and you know what? you’ll all eventually see I’m right’.

      It’s megalomania.

    24. ScottieDog says:

      She is resisting precisely because of Scotland’s wealth. Its a big part of the energy security of the U.K.

    25. Bob Mack says:

      Why would May behave this way ? I think that there are clues.
      Oil an gas companies proposing to invest £33 billion in extraction etc from around Shetland and the rest of Scottish waters. I think they hope to have a major return on that investment.

      Ireland is totally dismissed by Westminster and always has been. David Davis recently admitted as much stating that they were blindsided by the Irish situation in their planning.

      May nor her Ministers or parliamentarians on both side will wish to give freedom to either their piggy bank or their tame sectarians in Ireland.

    26. JLT agree with almost all you have written – would only change one thing. Your second point should read T May has BRIBED the 17th Century bigots to stay in power…

    27. Ken500 says:

      Clinging on in intransigence. What a loser. The people will decide. Bye, Bye.

    28. Daisy Walker says:

      There is an entirely logical reason for each and every one of her decisions, and those of the establisment’s labour party.

      The EU is introducing new tax legislation which will hit British Tax Havens in a way that has never happened before.

      That will effect the 1% of the establishment, whose families, have over the centuries, made fortunes (and stashed them) out of the Spice Trade, the Slave Trade, the Opium Trade to China and the collective assets stripped from entire colonies during the British Empire, including India, Africa, Malaysia.

      These families – from the Crown, down – own the banks, own the civil service, own the media and every place in it, etc, etc. When they are threatened, in their minds its the same as a threat to the country. Us plebs are merely here to serve.

      The only method of preventing the new tax haven legislation from being implemented is to avoid any trade deal that keeps the European Court of Justice adjudicating (since its a one size fits all organisation, and you can’t just drop bits of legislation you don’t like)- which pretty much rules out SM CU membership, or accepting Terrible May’s deal (which uniquely managed to arrange – a limited amount of trade – outwith ECJ rulings.)

      No deal has the added benefit of enabling freer and quicker selling off of everything to America, with no safety standards worthy of the name.

      With this in mind, it is highly unlikely they will accept any form of extension (under existing trading terms) either as this too would mean the staged implementation of the tax haven legislation will start to be put into effect.

      Interestingly the tax haven legislation is not about the EU setting tax rates…. it is about identifying and quantifying existing trust funds and who is liable for them. The tax levied on them would be at UK rates, to the UK Govt…. Wonder how much that is and if it would fit on the side of a bus.

      If you think back – no-one expected, or was pushing for TM to start the clock on A50 – she did that all off her own back.

      But then the timing was urgent. The tax haven laws came into being on 1/1/19, and will start being implemented in several stages – one in the middle of the year and one next year. The EU accepted that if the UK leaves on 29/3/19 it will not be worth their while pursuing these accounts for a 3 month period.

      If you think back, Boris, Mogg, TM, etc all of them were very blasé about SM and CU membership…. until they realised it meant the ECJ, and ECJ meant tax haven legislation.

      If you think back, the ECJ was NEVER mentioned, it had all been a rant about ECHR decisions. It was only when they realised the ECJ = tax haven legislation that this became an issue, and immediately ruled out a Norway + or an EEA membership deal of any kind.

      NO DEAL, or TM’s DEAL are the only things the establishment were ever aiming and planning for. And TM’s deal is really only there to make it look as if they’ve tried.

      They’ve risked Scotland – the empire’s last Cash Cow, at the most vulnerable time in history (given the close result of 2014). That too, makes sense when you look at it from the above motives.

      And why not, no deal = food riots = state of emergency = closing down Holyrood = bye bye Indy ref 2 for a very long time.

      They are not in the least bit dumb, or out of control, or incompetent. They have a plan and they’ve been executing it all along, with dramatic pantomimes at WM to keep us entertained.

      We are running out of time.

    29. Bob Mack = you’re right that ireland has been dismissed by WM. I remember reading some report of a Tory grandee in Europe who when they realised that Ireland was ‘dictating terms’ to England exclaimed ” How can that be, they’re much smaller than us” or words to that effect.

    30. Elizabeth Stanley says:


      Excellent post.Agree with every word.

    31. Paul Newton says:

      This is precisely why Nicola is playing the right strategy (I’m impatient too but it’s a mistake to take the cake out before it’s baked) if we continue to give Westminster enough rope then by March 29th they will have fashioned their own noose…..just like WW ordered all those years ago…..Hold…….Hold………..Hold……………..Hold……………………..NOW

    32. Contrary says:

      PTSD might explain her behaviour? I was speculating (in a grumpy fashion) on Craig’s blog …

      Theresa May is soft in the head – was she abused as a child and groomed to have the ‘correct’ opinion, that would explain some of her behaviour and robotic character? She really shouldn’t be in charge of the country however much sympathy I have for whatever troubled past she’s had. And I agree with Craig that she is racist, or bigoted if that’s too strong a word, and it’s that hatred-of-other that is driving her unreasonable demands.

      So, someone posted this link to background on Theresa’s father:

      No actual evidence of abuse or anything, but there is a shadow there. And apparently even certain kinds unsettled childhood can result in PTSD. Maybe not the best sort of problem for a PM to have at this time? Just speculation of course, but the compulsive obsessive repetition, inability to accept anything other than one course of action and/or decision and bare-faced hypocrisy does suggest there is something not right going on in the head there.

      That Westminster does not think she needs help just shows how screwed up the political system is.

    33. msean says:

      Again,a great piece.Everyone who isn’t blinded by stupidity,can see the way forward. Can’t anyone out there convince the tories that the way forward in this piece was their idea,so that they will follow it? 🙂

    34. Mogabee says:

      Judging by some of the absolute incredible ignorance about Scotland engineered by media and Westminster alike, and perhaps if Treeza is told to ignore Scottish pleas then that advice she should not be stopped from taking!

      As Prisoner no: 19153 I wish it be known I have access to heavy duty bolt cutters for those chains holding us down…

      Also watched the Lord Lisvane *debate* about the constitution and cannot believe the whacky comments coming from supposed intelligent lawmakers.

      Jeezo, people need to watch it for jaw dropping entertainment value alone. 😀 😀

    35. tartanfever says:

      She suffers the same bombastic nature as Gordon Brown. An inability to work with anyone else. Remember Clegg saying after the 2010 election that one of the reason’s he teamed up with the Tories was simply because working with Brown would be impossible, May suffers the same ego.

      May also wants revenge for some of her disasters as Home Secretary. She was embarrassed over Abu Qatada’s deportation, which as someone mentions above, made her determined to haul the UK out of the ECHR. She has been ridiculed by the legal profession in England because of some of the ridiculous cases she brought forward.

      Remember her disasters over immigration control ? Touring Border patrol posts at UK airports while the press lambasted her ? That made her sole policy for Brexit the end of Freedom of Movement, as it is the thing that completely hampered her as Home Secretary. She wants revenge.

      That and the fact that I believe she is genuinely a racist. Who can forget the ‘Go Home’ vans.

    36. Craig P says:

      >>We no longer have a union. We have a hostage situation.

      That’s a keeper!

      If we get hard Brexit the only people who will benefit are tax avoiders and human rights deniers. England will be convulsed with riots and Scotland will quietly have another referendum which, if allowed to go ahead unmolested, will likely narrowly win. If interfered with and the UK goes all Spain on us, the boost to the indy cause will make eventual independence inevitable, except with bad blood on both sides.

      What seems marginally more likely at this point in time is an extension of Article 50, but that just kicks the can down the road with no change of circumstances unless there is a general election and a brand new as yet non-existent ‘No Brexit’ single issue group (not the Lib Dems – nobody wants to vote for them) stands candidates everywhere in England and Wales.

    37. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu, good article.

      I have written to the EU Commission complaining that ignoring Scotland’s will is a breach of the integrity of the person of Scotland’s sovereign people; I also consider that being dragged/ kicked out the EU without our consent, can also be considered slavery.

      I raised similar points with David Martin MEP for Labour, no acknowledgement after 5 days. We’ll see if the EU will give the points I raise a fair examination or will they, like UK Parliament, also say: “you’ll dae whit yer telt”.

      We’ll see.

    38. marsfries says:

      Let’s hope March 29 is it. Preferably a no deal so that it focuses the minds of the undecided sharply. Reuters posted a report about the EU27’s take on this mess today and the EU27 are very weary about this entire shambles. I’d say that if the stalemate continues for the next few weeks with no solution in sight, the EU27 will decide not to grant an Article 50 extension at the last minute. They’re already frowning at the idea of having UK MEPs still voting in the upcoming elections in May. I really do think that there’ll come a point where they’ll put their foot down. The only thing I’d like to see from Nicola Sturgeon when Indy Ref 2 is finally announced is a confirmation that we will have neutral observers coming in for when the referendum is held.

    39. X_Sticks says:

      @Daisy Walker

      Right on the money Daisy.

      I’ve said all along that the british establishment plan is to crash the UK out. They think it will solve all their problems.

      They escape the EU tax laws. Very important to them.

      Once free of the European court they aim to use the powers they have grabbed from Holyrood to undermine the Scots parliament. They will use the Supreme Court to prevent us doing anything legally to gain independence. We could be forced to use UDI at which point they would use force.

      I fear for the future if we don’t get out of this before 29 March.

    40. Les Wilson says:

      Good article Stu, but the deluded will never go for it.Having
      a modicum of sense is not their thing.Retention of power over others is their delight.

      Anyone got a likn to Gordon Ross’slatest video’s Facebook and Youtube are both wellout of date.
      Thanks in advance,

    41. findlay farquaharson says:

      this should be go mainstream, probably willnae tho, far too sensible

    42. Tinto Chiel says:

      “We no longer have a union. We have a hostage situation.”

      As Robert Louis said, the Rev has summed up our relationship with England perfectly but really it’s been this way since 1707. It’s only been since 2007 that a political party in power has been putting Scottish interests first.

      While making the dinner tonight I heard some Tory MP (missed his name but he had a mini-me Farage throaty laugh) saying Tories would accept the Mayhem deal in a trice if only the EU would give up on the Irish backstop.

      I don’t know which is more delusional: that or the idea that the EU will cave in at the last moment because “this is what they always do”.

      Exceptionalism and irrationality are the hallmarks of this whole Brexit nonsense.

      Btw, a pleasure to read so many thoughtful and knowledgable contributions on this thread, when not disrupted by The Usual Suspects.

    43. PacMan says:


      I had posted a link to an article about the possible effects of stockpiling by British companies now to the future state of British and European economies due to the so called bullwhip effect. I had did a further google on this and quickly came across a Guardian article which says that British companies have been forced to set aside large amounts of cash in order to stockpile.

      This is causing a lot of strain to British companies and will continue to do so in the months ahead.

      It is obvious that we don’t need to wait until Brexit happens to see the disastrous economic effects of it. Along with job loses and delays to investment which while being blamed on other factors but we all know is due to Brexit, this is another symptom.

      How long is it before the comic books that goes for newspapers and the clowns that goes for politicians going to stop fooling around, take responsibility and end this madness?

    44. Legerwood says:

      Northern Ireland voted to Remain. They also would vote for reunification if given the chance but they cannot have that chance because Stormont is closed so they have no route to bring about a vote on reunification. Chance or deliberate?

      Another sop to the DUP?

      It beggars believe that the Assembly has not reopened yet the members elected in the last election are still being paid.

      The net effect is that the people of NI have no voice other than a group of dinosaurs who have jo intention of acting in a way that reflects the wishes of the people they represent.

    45. Not only is your solution perfectly logical -it lets England keep all that money it uses to subsidise us, at a time when they’ll need it to off set Brexit costs and build a base for their nuclear submarines.

      Fucks us though, with only our services, oil, whisky, agriculture and tourism to survive on.

    46. Cactus says:

      Tis snawing ra NOW inda southside of festive Glasgow…

      Scotland remains 2019 prisoners.

      Wae the misunited kingdom.

      Until the NOW…

      Push The B.

    47. Haggishunter says:

      This thread mirrors exactly what I was thinking for the past few weeks.
      It’s a fact, the Brit establishment hate the SNP so much that they will never listen to or work with them.
      England has taken back control and Scotland will do the same. Let them dig their own shite hole.

    48. defo says:

      Hammy as Speer?

    49. ronnie anderson says:

      Come in number 7 or we’ll send oot the bouncing ball

    50. Holly Teine says:

      Totally agree with JLT, although I’d go further and suggest it’s all about power and control.

      May doesn’t care if half of Scots want independence. If 80% of people wanted it she would still be saying, “You will do as I say.” [I hope the SNP realise this.]

      The hatred in her eyes when she interacts with the SNP in the UK Parliament says everything about her attitude. “Just you wait!” the face says, “I’ll show you.” And thus she’ll do anything and everything she can to crush Scotland and its people.

      Most Tories share this trait to some extent, hence EVEL, and doing everything they can to shut Scotland out and to stomp all over us.

      As some have said, she’s a megalomaniac.

    51. call me dave says:

      @ronnie anderson

      I Patrick Mcgoogled that yesterday for a X-word answer just to be sure and he was No6. 🙂

      I never understood it then or even now. That bubble thing!

    52. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Knowledgeable”, obvs.

      Apple oagies.

    53. schrodingers cat says:

      i dont know enough about ni procedures, but stus article states

      “The Good Friday Agreement provided clear and explicit instructions for a reunification vote to be held “if at any time it appears likely to [the Secretary of State] that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”

      I dont know how this would be acsertained, but surely if 50% or more of elected MPs, or of the electorate would satisfy the conditions for an iuref?

    54. Stravaiger says:

      Daisy Walker at 5:55pm is spot on.

      Whilst I think May is genuinely trying to hold her precious union together, I believe the hard Brexiteers do not really care much whether the UK breaks up. In fact, it’s what they expect to happen eventually anyway.

      I don’t think May is a Brexiteer at heart but I think she has chosen to try to save her party and save her precious union. A miscalculation.

    55. Al Ba says:

      Is there going to be another Wee Blue Book to inform folks of the facts & falsehoods, etc to clarify to Scotland, or rUK for that matter, as to who’s telling the truth & lies, in the illegal Brex*hit process, and for run up to IndyRef2?

    56. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi call me dave at 6:51 pm.

      You typed,
      “@ronnie anderson

      I Patrick Mcgoogled that yesterday for a X-word answer just to be sure and he was No6. ?

      I never understood it then or even now. That bubble thing!”

      I watched The Prisoner when it was originally broadcast on Grampian TV way back when. I don’t think I got it at the time. However, I bought a box set on VHS, maybe 15 odd years ago, and me and my son who was in his early teens, watched it. Rather enjoyed it.

      Now that you have reminded me, I may just pull it out of the VHS cupboard, get steam up on my VHS player and rewatch.

      JEEZ! Just had a look on YouTube and I was 15 when it was first broadcast!

    57. Bill Hume says:

      I am not a number……although I drive a Caterham 7.
      It’s all getting a bit interesting, and ever nearer to Scottish independence.

    58. yesindyref2 says:

      This is grand, but we should never lose sight of the possibility that May has had a plan since the beginning, has been executing it to perfection, and that that plan is to cancel Brexit completely by making it totally unworkable, a disaster in the making. As I said – possibility – I couldn’t even begin to put a percentage on it.

    59. Theresa should never have been leader of the Tory party,

      Corbyn should never have been leader of the Labour party,

      both good parliamentarians but neither have the real ability to lead and make the big decisions.

    60. Davie Oga says:

      Customs union for Scotland would make sense from an economic point but it’s a different situation as far as citizens rights. Every British and Irish citizen in Northern Ireland has the right to both citizenships. A Northern unionist can mitigate the loss of his EU citizenship by getting an Irish passport and plenty have already. Irish citizenship is conferred using strictly applied legal definitions with regards to parentage and residency. Scotland has no such legal definitions and no such ability to maintain EU citizenship for its people both in Scotland and those resident throughout the EU.
      It works for Northern Ireland because of the access to EU citizenship. It doesn’t protect the treaty rights of Scottish citizens because no such legal definition exists. I also think that other EU countries would take a dim view of the notion that a Scot is anyone who has a postal ballot or has moved on up because they were invited on Twitter.
      Only independence and clearly defined parameters for who is a Scottish citizen can protect the treaty rights of all the people of Scotland.

    61. geeo says:

      This whole ‘out before 29th march’ thing seems to not take into account of a small detail, but an important one.

      If the Indy PROCESS ie: announced indyref or a protective legal process to end the Union, has started before 29th March, then all protections from international courts and organisations like the UN, should still apply beyond march 29th, surely ?

      In that instance, as long as we fire the starting gun before brexit day, its all good in that respect.

      Otherwise treeza could just say wait until march 29th and we are actually stuffed.

      The fact Nicola is relaxed about timing suggests all is good in that regard.

      We need to keep the faith, we have loads of lawyers on our side who know whats what in that regard.

      Now is not the time to panic. We can almost see the whites of their eyes, this is the time to stand firm, the battle is almost here, turn away now and we will be trampled underfooot forever.

      Remember, we ARE winning.

    62. T May will not agree to a GE – surely, she wriggled in front of all her MP’s before the VONC in HER, and only passed that confidence vote by promising she would not lead the party into the next GE. Or did she promise not to lead them into the 2022 GE?

      No- one else wants the responsibility at this point in time so she is stuck with it

    63. call me dave says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      I was listening to the radio (serial) version of The Prisoner just two weeks ago on DAB Radio 4 extra.
      A 1991 hash. Not up to much really

      (lots of old serials and comedy on there).

      VHS! What is this you speak of? 🙂

      Not a Betamax or a Philips 2000 I hope. The good old days.

    64. velofello says:

      “If Scotland becomes independent we will be diminished”.

      Remember these words? Tooth and nail, the Establishment will fight us.Money and thus power are their Gods. People their fodder.

      Family discussion, “How could anyone work for the DWP handing out these damaging punishments to people?”. Well it’s their job, I suppose.

      How can Hutcheon and Gordon work for the Herald? And by their articles seek to damage Scotland and our politicians. Well it’s their job, I suppose.

    65. auld highlander says:

      Control freaks plain and simple, we have everything and they have nothing so their selfishness shines through, we also have handy places to dump their nuke rubbish, deep water anchorages for their minuscule navy and a good supply of poorly paid gullible young guys who are easily hoodwinked into joining up to be used as cannon fodder except today’s cannons have a lot more accuracy and more devastating power.

      as for may herself, she’s an only child and has not learnt to share or know how to share so it’s me me me me me me.

    66. geeo says:

      @meg merrilees.

      You gotta love them tories, over 100 do not think she is fit to run the Tory party, but every single one of them voted her as fine to run the government…go figure !!

    67. Cactus says:

      Pure check the pure state of this thing not like:

      Can you see the “lead us Scotland” bullshit via fashion?

      John SO knows the score.

      As does Wings.

      Fly FREE!

    68. Cactus says:








    69. ronnie anderson says:

      call me dave

      Ah think it wiz Mr Brotherhood that released the bouncing baw oan me in 2014 when ah wiz doolally but am aw rite noooo

    70. Tobex says:

      Well, there is ONE explanation. One that the press have conveniently ignored, despite it being a pretty obvious link.
      The EU Ant Tax Avoidance Directive came into force this year.
      And who games their income to avoid tax? That’s right folks, the donors who float the Conservative and Unionist Party.
      “Deliver ANY Brexit” is, I imagine, the order May has been given by her masters.

    71. Tobex says:

      Ant Tax? lol Anti*

    72. Cactus says:

      It’s FUCKING Friday night everybuddy!!

      It is NORMAL to be WILD.

      FUCK IT!

      In ye come Tobex ~ enjoy

      It’s fuckin’ Friday night.

      GO Crazy i2019 xx.

      Every fuckin’ day.

      Keep posting…

    73. ronnie anderson says:

      People need to understand The Nth Irish assembly was shut down with the intransigence of the DUP ( but that was in the planning ) and thereby the rumour & disinformation mechanism kicked in re the Holyrood Parliament being shut down , big difference between NI & Scotland We ‘re Sovereign , should Tereza try & close Holyrood Parliament then the Scottish Grand Committee can be reformed as the alternative Gov of Scotland .


    74. Cactus says:

      And with that the recent continuation of that last song…

      Tell it, Angus:

      How’s yer weather?

    75. Cactus says:

      Trending… Scotland:

      Go find it…

    76. Artyhetty says:

      The Tories and T.May will all be fine. They are hoping the plebs will believe that their Brexit will all be fine. It won’t be, not for the majority.

      It’s not about her, or shouldn’t be, but in a way it is. Like the leaflet I had posted through my door, from Ruth Davidson. In every photo on the expensively fancy 4 page leaflet, she is in the photograph. It’s all about her. Yesterday chatting with a paid carer, we were discussing politics, the carer said’ ‘I like her personality though’, re untRuth. Asked which part of the personality, reply was ‘she is funny’.


      For some who have no time, or interest to scour the real facts, the media are doing a fantastic job of making politics about ‘personality’, not policy. It’s an Americanisation of Britnat politics. It’s cold, cruel, ignorant, misguided, and corrupt but very much a fantasy Island type of belief.

      It’s like some kind of alternative reality in fact, where some people actually believe the opposite of reality. A clever trick, must take some time and £’s and $’s for that to work.

      Anyway just my opinion.

      T.May has an agenda, it’s to keep Scotland shackled come what may, no pun intended. After all, Scotland is a huge asset, if not in fact the bread basket of the rUK especially with Brexit looming! Think Thatcher, think the 2008 crash, with bells on. England can’t afford for Scotland to escape. Simple.

    77. Bobp says:

      Dakk 5.01pm And mundell’s the deputy reich protector of Scotland.

    78. Scottish Steve says:

      The greatest irony in the Brexit tragedy is that Scottish nationalists, whose primary goal is the end of the UK, are actually trying to save it (or at least prolong its life) whereas supposed unionists are doing everything they can to destroy the “precious, precious Union” they profess to love.

      Strange times indeed. Britannia is no longer the vibrant and powerful force striding across the world with her empire. She is an old, weary shadow of her former self. Let’s give her a dignified death, shall we?

    79. Iain mhor says:

      Ah, well it is all in the mind.
      If in your mind the UK is a single indivisible, indissoluble entity, and the UK is indistinguishable and synonymous with the idea of England the Sceptred Isle; then it is unconscionable that any part of it should be excised, partitioned or in any way differentiated.
      Even Devolution is a permanent source of angst and a boil which is overdue a lancing. Any process which requires considering a region of that Greater England/ UK/ Great Britain as a seperate political entity is anathema.

      It was a UK wide vote, it is a UK political decision made from the heart of UK politics, the Mother of all Parliaments and Supreme Sovereignty under the Crown of Her Brittanic Majesty. Considering otherwise is so far from any frame of reference as to be invisible, imperceptible, unintelligible, quite literally inconceivable – Much as the apocrophyl tale of the natives inability to perceive the Tall Ships of the European explorers.

      The continued use of the phrase “UK wide vote” as opposed to “UK vote” is the clue here. A UK vote was a draw – an impasse requiring negotiations to be brokered between equal partners. A UK wide vote was the majority vote of a single entity.

      Different minds different perceptions and never the twain shall meet.

    80. Cactus says:

      THAT song:

      Should ALWAYS followed by this song:

      You look at me SO funny…


    81. Legerwood says:

      schrodingers cat @ 6:55 pm

      I think the Stormont Assembly is an essential route by which an approach could be made to the Secretary of State for NI.

      In the last election for the assembly there was a one seat difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein.

      When it comes to MPs, however, there are 11 unionist MPs to MPs, Sinn Fein and SDLP, who want a United Ireland. The difference in number of MPs between DUP and Sinn Fein is even larger, 8:4.

      No Assembly then SoSNI only has MPs to listen to and that means the DUP.

      Without the Assembly then getting the issue front and centre is well nigh impossible.

    82. Auld Rock says:

      Some of you reading this might well have voted, Tory or Labour or Fib/Dems or Green or Plaid maybe even Independent but how many of you voted ‘DUP’ who effectively are the Government as Wednesday evening’s Confidence Vote proved?

    83. Cactus says:

      FUCK the television.

      Turn up the fucking Radio.

      Ah need the music.

      Gimme some MORE.

      Guitar SOLO!



    84. Hamish100 says:

      cactus there are other areas of wosc for your offensive posts thanks.

    85. Cactus says:

      Hamish aye, as always, WE Love you thee offended one, wur doin’ this.

      It’s Friday night dude.

      Let’s do this…

    86. Cactus says:

      Aye challenge thee Hamish100… gauntlet, in a friendly kinda thee way..

      PLAY me your favourite song dude…

      Aye can listen.


    87. Brian Powell says:

      Do you remember when Labour MP, Ian Murray, had a sticker put on his constituency office window, and the first thing he did was get in touch with the newspapers to report the ‘attack’, the police said no rime was reported.

      Then we get this, real intimidation:

    88. Cactus says:

      Dunno about you Hamish100, but every Labour rose has it’s long gone fucking dawn, can you dig me K1 😉

      This is a song for Lovers:

      The sky remains.

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It’s not just May. It runs much, much deeper than that. It’s what I’ve been saying all along: the supporters of the Union are so fossilised and unwilling to change that they are destroying the very thing they claim to believe in.

      They had a prime chance with Smith to fulfil their promises, and failed comprehensively, revealing every single one to be completely hollow.

      They had an second chance with Brexit. They could have sought solutions along tbe lines of this article, and instead of consultation and inclusion, it was barefaced theft of even some of the few aspects of autonomy we had. The attitude was “winner takes all” and “Scotland, shut up and get back in your box”.

      It’s never going to be otherwise, whether it’s Labour or the Tories in charge, and we have to realise and accept that. The Unionists are institutionally incapable of any kind of reform, adaptation or ceding of genuine autonomy, and instead cling like limpets to top-down rule, with London in charge of everything, no matter what.

      It’s the Unionists who are the true enemies of their precious Union. And right now are busily wrecking it beyond repair.

      It’s high time to protect our own, in our own way.

    90. Cactus says:

      Some excellent guitar solo’s ici le soir.

      PLAY your favourite.

      Make Love X.

    91. Iain says:

      The sovereign people of Scotland and Northern Ireland are shortly going to to say “stop the bus”and have a vote for independence and reunification and the uk is done.
      We have to guard against all the nazi propaganda on Facebook.

    92. William Habib Steele says:

      This is Scotland’s opportunity! What is the SNP playing at? Have they become so enamoured by the possibility of being a player in England (for the English the UK = England) that they are trying to rescue our conquerors? We need to follow Craig Murray’s advice NOW! If we don’t the English government will likey make it impossible for us to act for independence.

      “My preferred route to Independence is this. The Scottish Parliament should immediately legislate for a new Independence referendum. The London Government will attempt to block it. The Scottish Parliament should then convene a National Assembly of all nationally elected Scottish representatives – MSPs, MPs and MEPs. That National Assembly should declare Independence, appeal to other countries for recognition, reach agreements with the rump UK and organise a confirmatory plebiscite. That is legal, democratic and consistent with normal international practice.”

      The referendum question should be, “Do you, the sovereign people of Scotland, authorise the Government democratically elected by you, to revoke the Treaty and Act of Union?”

    93. Cactus says:

      Let’s see some FUCKIN’ EMOTION frae ye Scotland…



    94. jezza says:


      Music and swearing has been getting posted on to Wings pages since it started up.

      Wings is like a family,,,consider Cactus as one of the family with a touch of character about him.

      there are many characters on Wings and Cactus is one of them.

      Lighten up a wee be Hamish ,,,if not why don’t you try another website.

    95. Shinty says:

      Iain – correct me if I’m wrong but the people of NI are not sovereign.

    96. Masslass says:

      DAISY WALKER at 5.55pm

      Best post of the day.

      I agree with every word

    97. Iain says:

      You are absolutely right, my mistake they are a province of England.
      Still I hope sense will win through.

    98. PacMan says:

      yesindyref2 says: @ 18 January, 2019 at 7:07 pm

      This is grand, but we should never lose sight of the possibility that May has had a plan since the beginning, has been executing it to perfection, and that that plan is to cancel Brexit completely by making it totally unworkable, a disaster in the making. As I said – possibility – I couldn’t even begin to put a percentage on it.

      Thank goodness I am not the only one that thought the same.

      Even more Machiavellian, I don’t think that is only May’s thinking but also the arch Brexiteers like Johnson and Rees Mogg. Those hard Brexiteers were supreme in the blind confidence that they wouldn’t really win but had only took their position in order to further their own position.

      After the complete shock of actually winning, they pushed and continued to snipe throughout pushing for an even harder Brexit that was in no way acceptable that it would be eventually rejected completely out of hand. I wonder what they would do if Brexit did mean Brexit and we crashed out of Europe in a couple of months time with a no deal?

      Who knows? Maybe May, Johnson, Rees Moog, Farage et all are all in it together as a sort of grand scheme of continuing chaos,lurching from one disaster to another, in order to keep the Tories in power as suggested by a poster previously in here like Surkov is reputed to be doing in Russia for Putin?

    99. crazycat says:

      @ Legerwood at 8.26

      When it comes to MPs, however, there are 11 unionist MPs to MPs, Sinn Fein and SDLP, who want a United Ireland. The difference in number of MPs between DUP and Sinn Fein is even larger, 8:4.

      Those are the results of the 2015 Westminster election –
      8 DUP
      4 Sinn Féin
      3 SDLP
      2 UUP
      1 Independent (Sylvia Hermon)

      In 2017, the polarization increased:
      10 DUP
      7 Sinn Féin
      1 Independent (still Sylvia Hermon)

      The more moderate parties on both sides (UUP, SDLP) were obliterated.

      This makes no difference to the totals on each side, or to the point you were making, but it does potentially reflect a change in the electorate’s attitude (FPTP makes it harder to tell; I haven’t gone through the results totting up the votes for the losing candidates).

    100. Zen Broon says:

      “Does she hate Scots and Irish people so much that even while drowning, she would harpoon them rather than let them throw her a lifeline?” There is not a chance of any solution that will be seen as giving into or – worse -advantaging the Scots in any way. English nationalism is too far gone for that.

    101. K1 says:

      Ah dig ye Cactus…ah feel like a little bit of bad company the night 😉

    102. Rock says:

      “But let nobody ever say that we sat back quietly and didn’t even try to stop the country, in a spirit of comradely solidarity, from charging to its doom.”

      Trying to save the country (UK) is the biggest political mistake ever made by a Scottish leader in the last 311 years.

    103. Legerwood says:

      crazycat @ 9.18pm

      Thank you for the correction. I did not notice I was looking at the 2015 GE results. As you say more polarised in 2017 than 2015.

    104. Cactus says:


    105. K1 says:

      Do we know if there was any ‘dark money’ thrown into the NI elections in ’17 like there was in Scotland to achieve that ‘perception’ of polarisation?

    106. K1 says:

      If it was a broader strategy of spiking Scotland’s guns so we must assume same strategies were being employed in NI too. The 2 nations that voted Remain?

    107. crazycat says:

      @ Legerwood

      You’re welcome. (I have an unhealthy obsession with election results; if I had realized in my youth that psephology was a potential career choice, you might now be having to listen to me instead of John Curtice – a lucky escape all round!)

    108. Proud Cybernat says:

      Sorry Rev, not trying to be an arse (really) but I feel this has to be done:

      “…as the country burns down around everyone’s ears…”

      ‘…as the Union (of countries) burns down around everyone’s ears…”

      “…and unsustainable frame of mind for a country’s leader to be in…”

      ‘…and unsustainable frame of mind for the UK’s leader to be in…’

      “…yet is now the country’s most implacable advocate of…”

      ‘…yet is now the UK’s most implacable advocate of…’

      “…and didn’t even try to stop the country, in a spirit of comradely solidarity, from charging to its doom.”

      ‘…and didn’t even try to stop the UK, in a spirit of comradely solidarity, from charging to its doom.’

      The UK ISN’T a “country”.

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @Giesabrek says: 18 January, 2019 at 4:53 pm@

      ” … I think it’s time the SNP stopped trying to save England from itself.”

      Nah! giesabrek, no one wants their next door neighbour to be a poverty stricken, crippled, down at heel beggar. If for no other reason than it lowers the tone of the neighbourhood and makes the price of all property fall.

    110. lumilumi says:

      An outside view on all this Brexshit.

      May and Corbyn are just running down the clock, for whatever party-political gain they imagine, willing to throw all UK populace under the bus.

      The rest of the world watches in awe, in horror, as you would a slow mo train wreck. What can you do with a member state that willfully shoots itself in the foot, willfully flouts all and every European political consensus. Because, England, exceptional.

      Scotland! Get out while you can… But can you?

      A new independence referendum is the gift of Westminster, and Brexit Britain will never let go of their cash cow. You know, that oil that’s so bad for an independent Scotland and so good and vital for Brexit Britain.

      It’s just sooooo sickening. Why would any Scot vote against independence? I just don’t get it. Well, I get brainwashed fitba fans but they’re a tiny minority.

      And, sorry to say, the Scottish people probably lost their chance in 2014.

      It’s now all bundled up with Brexit and complicated and shit, so maybe voting NO to any change is the “safe” option… I mean, after the Brexit shitstorm, maybe the independence shitstorm is scary. Better to stay with the devil you know, shit and all, than to take that leap of faith to independence.

      As a foreigner who understands more than most about the UK “democracy” and overall British political culture… It doesn’t mean shit, I’m just a Johnny Foreigner and not welcome in the UK, not even in Scotland that would welcome me with open arms.

      I’m really worried about democracy in the western world. It seems it can be bought by old and new media control, leading gullible people this way or that – and media and their followers discounting “experts”, scientific knowledge, as “opinions”, and not important.

      Jeez, what a time to be alive. I almost want to die.

    111. defo says:

      “Jeez, what a time to be alive. I almost want to die.”

      The Rev I M Jolly couldn’t have put it better lumilumi.
      You’re in.

    112. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev hiv U good news U would like to impart re the events of the 17th In Edinburgh .

    113. Phronesis says:

      The EU is reforming through structured progressive policies across a wide range of domains unlike the ignoble political thinkers of WM who continue on the trajectory to make everyone poorer (unless one is able to move one’s assets around the world of global hedge funds and tax dodges )and condemn citizens to a precarious life.
      Separation is messy, expensive and impossible to do cleanly and that is why Scotland, the country, will remain in the EU on her own terms. Meanwhile rUK will continue with its ostrich politics- the Dutch have a word for that ‘Struisvogelpolitiek’.

      The EU proposes;

      ‘Citizens’ Contract of “Sustainable Democracy For All”
      Political Declaration by the European Council on the importance of strong tripartite and social dialogue in a well-functioning social market economy
      Provide for a legal framework to allow independent civil society to function without government interference across the whole of the EU
      Foster at national, regional and local levels the role of public or publicly regulated non-profit enterprises to build eco-social public services. A European “Responsible Business” label to allow people to identify whether a given company ensures social and environmental responsibility, and good corporate governance
      A harmonised European definition and a ban of dodgy tax schemes that exist in different Member States
      An ambitious European anti-poverty plan to improve the situation of all people at risk of poverty or social exclusion, reduce the number of people at-risk-of-poverty or social exclusion by 25 million people for 2030, and by an additional 50 million for 2050
      A European Child Guarantee to mitigate the damaging effects of poverty on children’

    114. Daisy Walker 5.55 – the devil is in the detail.

      As you say, they’ve had a plan all along and it’s summed up in three words :
      ‘Take Back Control`

    115. Derek says:

      I was talking to my mate who lives in Finland earlier; he’s having to try to find ancient documents for proof of this/that/the other, so I might have to visit his dad’s house because there’s ladders involved in finding said documents. He wants to know just what the f*** we’re playing at. He knows that it wasn’t US us but, you know…

    116. ronnie anderson says:

      Hi lumilumi its not the gift of Westminster to give us a referendum , this isn’t 2014 the Sovereign will of the Scottish people will be expressed with or without approval of Teresa . Nicola has a legal Mandate ( & Supreme Court cant interfere in Scottish Law ) as they SC have recently found out .

      To reiterate Nicola’s words Indyref will be in weeks rather than months , does that sound like Nicola’s waiting on Tereza’s consent .

      Dont be a stranger ,always nice to see U back on Wings .

    117. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      Well what a change from the last few days.

      This thread has been full of interesting,informative & funny posts.

      Long may it continue.

    118. cirsium says:

      @lumilumi, 9.58

      A new independence referendum is the gift of Westminster,

      Is it not the section 30 which is the gift? While it still has the powers, Holyrood can hold a consultative referendum. This is why we need to hold it before March 29.

      and Brexit Britain will never let go of their cash cow.

      I am inclined to agree with you. If we wait until Brexit, we are going to be treated like the Gilets Jaunes or Catalans.

    119. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Great post and comments, really enjoying reading it.

      FWIW, my take on May’s behaviour is that she’s behaving like a blackmail victim.

      Remember Blair’s behaviour? We all, at different points perhaps, realised that he wasn’t in charge, that he was being instructed by someone else. All the “I had to make that decision” bluster he came out with as a justification, even after all the inquiries and condemnation…well, he had to say something, didn’t he? And what would they be blackmailing him about? That’s a big net right there so use that to find it yersel, and if ye’re genuinely clueless trying starting with his full name (check Wiki) and search for that with ‘Miranda’.

      What would they blackmail May with? I’m not even going there because I don’t know, but we do know she was Home Secretary when a lot of material incriminating (largely Tory) politicians ‘went missing’. We already know – at least some of! – what they had on Cameron, so I don’t understand why so many raise an eyebrow when it is suggested that these characters may have found favour with the Establishment because they have dark secrets.

      May’s behaviour since she became PM suggests that she is being told what to do every step of the way, and that she’s powerless to disobey or even express serious dissent. I find JLT’s analysis persuasive, but I don’t believe May is a ‘real’ megalomaniac, not even a narcissist – she looks, to my untrained eye, like a very damaged individual who has become used to being told what to do and has learned to do it (sometimes brilliantly) without protest or self-pity. Her sheer stubbornness really is extraordinary – it’s almost as if she doesn’t even register the pressures which have already crushed many around her. Who knows? – perhaps she has already been so personally crushed that these forces don’t hurt much.

      Ach, mibbe I’m just a big softy, but part of me does feel pity, not just for her, but everyone who’s been damaged by ‘British’ exceptionalism and obsession with ‘duty’.

      (P.S. Ronnie Anderson, that was my missus’s big exercise ball, I lobbed it into the sea off Stevenston beach – it frightens the punters at various points up and down the West coast but it always comes back.)


    120. jezza says:

      Keeping N Ireland in the Single Market while the rest of the UK leaves is the DUPs worst nightmare.

      It would mean Dublin would have more powers of N Ireland than London had.

      And the DUP would rather die poking their eyes out with sharp sticks than be ruled by Dublin.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry about this, but if anyone tried to correct me about the use of the word “country”, I’d either just ignore them, or quote the dictionary definition:

      an area of land that has its own government, army, etc.:

      The UK has all that. It’s not an “AND” definition, so Scotland also qualifies under that as we have a government. Other definitions have it as relating to “nation”.

      Language is living, we should live with it or all speak Latin!

    122. Thepnr says:

      Realistically the chances of a 2nd Independence referendum before the 29th march must be so small that it would barely be seen with a microscope.

      In fact I think the chances of even having a date for a 2nd referendum by then are not quite as small but minute none the less.

      Sure, I heard Nicola the other day and that we’ll be given an update on her plans for Independence in the coming weeks.

      Anyone really believe that these plans might include a date?

    123. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The UK has all that. It’s not an “AND” definition, so Scotland also qualifies under that as we have a government.”

      You cannot have a country within a country.

      If you accept Scotland is a country then what’s the UK?

      It’s a ‘Union’ (of 3 countries + a province).

    124. Rock says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      18 January, 2019 at 10:23 pm

      “To reiterate Nicola’s words Indyref will be in weeks rather than months , does that sound like Nicola’s waiting on Tereza’s consent .”

      Did Ms Sturgeon really use those words?

      Or is it fake news?

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat
      Language is about communication. Or should be.

      To put it into our context, trying to persuade undecideds or soft noes to vote YES, if one of them asks “Why should I vote YES, why should Scotland become independent of the country of the UK?” and instead of giving them good reasons to vote YES, we give them an earful of bipartites, arm-waggling 3 centuries, riots in the streets and frankly, pretty weird redefinitions of common words, we’ve totally lost their interest.

      And if in an article like this some weird constructs of words is used instead of the simple understdable word “country”, the article loses its point, its thrust, and its effectiveness.

      Language is for use, not pedanticismicity! I guess you could say it’s for peasants, not pedants.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      And Wales is a country, by the way, tell a Welshman his or her country is a province and there won’t be a welcome in the hillsides!

    127. Lenny Hartley says:

      He UK’s descriptin of what it is in the UN should be fairly accurate, if memory serves the UK describes itself as Two Nations, a principality and a provence or did i just make that up!

    128. Liam says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      18 January, 2019 at 10:39 pm
      Language is living, we should live with it or all speak Latin!

      No, we’d be speaking Etruscan.

      (What came before that?)

    129. Liam says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      18 January, 2019 at 10:47 pm

      You cannot have a country within a country.

      San Marino.

    130. Lenny Hartley says:

      Sounds plausible, going by the polls they could wn with a majority, get rid of the DUP and have enough May loyalists selected to get her “deal” through Parliament and have everything wrapped up before the Eurp Elections in may.

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liam “(What came before that?)

      Ugh [smacks other caveman with animal bone]

    132. cynicalHighlander says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 January, 2019 at 10:39 pm

      It might have a Greek connection.

    133. K1 says:

      Lovely thread today and tonight…well done all of us…smirk. 😉

    134. Proud Cybernat:

      The international definition of the UK is supposedly a Union of two Kingdoms – Scotland and England, a Principality – Wales and a Province – N. Ireland.

      However, the establishment, lately, has being trying to con us all to think that it is a Union of 4 nations/countries to try and confuse us all over the notion that Scotland might be an equal partner.

      In fact Mundell went so far as to tell us, if you remember, Scotland is no longer a partner in the UK but part of the UK – get back in your standard issue box Scotland – you’re the same wee small region as the other peripheral regions and didn’t some tory on TV tell us that we were about the same size as Manchester or something like that.

    135. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @cynicalHighlander –

      Nah, you’ve got me there…

      Another thing about May though – her husband is insanely wealthy, isn’t he? Why on earth would she put up with this 24/7 shite when she knows he can magic them both away to anywhere on earth overnight? Makes no sense at all at all…

    136. Sunshine says:

      Ian Brotherhood @10:39
      I don’t think that you are too far off the mark with your take on things. She definitely just acts like someone without feeling, who just follows a script that’s handed to her. Maybot is an apt name.
      I just usually scroll back about 30 or 40 comments when I dip into the site, but because of you I’m now going to have to scroll through them to find out about a bloody big exercise ball off the coast of Stevenson :÷)

    137. MacMina MacAllan says:

      Tail wag dog scenario in prospect?

      May’s Brexit deal has been rejected and she has been utterly humiliated even though she doesn’t appear to have enough sense to realise it.
      Yes – May’s mayhem is getting almost interesting.
      Judging by the news coverage it seems the option of the so-called people’s vote is now being looked on as more likely and I have been mulling over the possible outcome. I’ll make it as brief as possible but will show enough arithmetic for enthusiasts to check the figures. Others can just skip the numbers and go to the conclusion.

      There have been recent polls eliciting voting intentions in Scotland (S), Wales (W) and Northern Ireland (NI), though nothing coherent with reference to England (E).
      Taking percentage figures for Remain/Leave (R/L) ratio,
      S in 2016 voted 62/38 but polls now suggest 70/30
      W in 2016 voted 47.5/52.5 but polls now suggest 50/50
      NI in 2016 voted 55.8/44.2 but polls now suggest 69/31

      Relating these swings (note all are towards R) to the number of votes cast in each country means the following numbers would be added to the UK R total, and of course subtracted from the L side.

      S 214,468 + W 41,113 + NI 104,495 = Total 360,076. which at first glance doesn’t seem much in the context of 33,551,983 votes cast UK wide.

      But don’t despair.
      The 2016 UK R/L result was 16,141,241/ 17,410,742 votes and correcting these figures by the poll results for S, W and NI, gives a predicted 2019 UK R/L result of 16,510,317/ 17,050,666 votes
      The difference is 549,349 votes in favour of L so for a draw we’d need 274,675 English voters to change from L to R.
      There were 28,455,372 votes cast in England so we need a swing of
      274,675 /28,455,372 = 0.96% to break even.
      Every other part of the UK has shown a swing towards Remain so a 1% change of heart in England is surely within the realms of possibility?

      Now the good bit.
      To achieve this critical result the English vote R/L ratio would be
      (13,266,966 + 284,675) / (15,188,406 – 284,675)
      = 13,541,641 / 14,913,73
      That is an English Brexit R/L ratio of 47.6/ 52.4 in favour of Leave

      Imagine it. The big imperialist bully kept in the EU against it’s will by the combined will of the minor partners in this great family of nations.

      What then? England demanding independence from UK?
      Or May telling us now IS the time, just go Scotland, no Article 30 permission required, in fact no Indyref2 required!
      Smiley faces with saltires definitely required.

    138. ben madigan says:

      Brilliant post Rev. Especially the line “We no longer have a union. We have a hostage situation.” Should be shared/Twittered etc far and wide

      I did look in over the past few days but the din was such that .. .I left almost immediately without a hail or farewell!

      Interesting posts and comments . I was struck by what

      Ian Brotherhood said:”so I don’t understand why so many raise an eyebrow when it is suggested that these characters may have found favour with the Establishment because they have dark secrets”.

      I looked into that type of mechanism at the time of the Cameron and Lock Up Your Trotters scandal.

      Here’s what I found out

      “the real story of the Establishment is the culture of grooming, exploitation, hypocrisy and intimidation – backed up by political and economic capital”

    139. Gerry says:

      Re the section 30 comments. Ever wonder why Cameron did not risk refusing AS a referendum? This is from the guidance notes on the 1998 Act for Schedule 5. They’re unchanged….

      Schedule 5 of the 1998 Act does not list devolved matters. Nor does it list specific functions which are reserved. Instead it sets out subjects where legislative competence has been reserved to the UK Parliament. The approach varies, but in general the reservations have been expressed in broad terms – typically by general descriptions of the subject or by reference to the subject matter of a particular Act. Where exceptions are made to these reservations, these are also typically expressed in fairly general terms (though it stands to reason that greater detail is used than in the reservations themselves).
      4. This approach was adopted deliberately when drafting the
      1998 Act, to allow the courts to take a broad approach to the interpretation of Schedule 5 and,in particular, to consider the intended coverage of reservations instead of relying on an unduly literal approach. It is important that this should not be undermined by a series of unduly detailed section 30(2) Orders, not least because this could cast doubt on the interpretation of existing more general reservations.

    140. Phil says:

      Liam says: 18 January, 2019 at 11:12 pm

      ” Proud Cybernat says:
      18 January, 2019 at 10:47 pm

      You cannot have a country within a country.

      San Marino.”

      Also try Andorra. I suspect there are several more . . .

      I also suspect the people who tell us to cease talking about one kingdom – two kingdoms – four countries – more; should realise the importance to judicial people as we shall have to deal with at the UN, the ECJ, the IMF, the World Bank and so many more.

      Scotland needs a case for presentation in all sorts of forums and before all sorts of deciders. First of which are Scottish electors, then UK parliamentarians. The aim in every case to ensure our rights to independence are accepted and initiated.

    141. cynicalHighlander says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 January, 2019 at 11:35 pm

      Oh Ian he rammed a foreign vehicle tother day.

      The UK is ruled by the monarchy always has been.

    142. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Sunshine (11.35) –

      Please don’t waste yer time scrolling back!

      My PS was in response to Ronnie Anderson, who was – as is his wont – making a pun about the title of this post (Prisoner) and I was repying to him in similarly cryptic mode, so I apologise for that!


    143. Sunshine says:

      Just flying a kite and maybe someone else has suggested it, but it would not surprise me one bit if an amendment was added to Mays plan B, that she didn’t like, but it passes anyway. She would then (be told?) to wait until the the last minute that she could and call a general election to run down the clock until Brexit passes by default.
      I know about the fixed term parliament act, but I get the feeling that something along these lines is going to happen.
      Or maybe I’m talking pure balderdash. On stilts of course! But hey, you can bet one of the crazy fools down there have been jibber jabbering such an idea.

    144. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @cynicalHighlander –

      Okay, so we’re really discussing procurement issues?!


    145. Doineann says:

      There is a War coming, a well thought out war that will close every democratic process, it will close all the UK assemblies and parliaments .. excluding the sovereign Westminster.

      Everything you see before you is a smoke screen, an attempt to confuse you, divide you, and instil you with utter FEAR !!


    146. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      The UN definition was of course supplied by the UK Government and there’s a bit of a problem with that, really. While it acknowledges Scotland as a country, it describes NI as a province.

      Now the thing is that the “4 provinces” (4 green fields one of them in bondage) was a construct of an English monarch. Before that some time it have been 5 kingdoms, going back further quite a few kingdoms, and depending on whether you think the Ulster Cycle was basically history with imagination or mythology, Kings of All Ireland. From that and bearing in mind Eire and Independence, plus the troubles, and you can see why the UK would want to define NI as a province – confirming its status as a possession of the Queen / King of, errr, Britain or something.

      The principality is maybe even more of a political hotcake, or was in those days. Wales was taken by conquest, and held, asset stripped of course, and toted off to the King / Queen’s son if any, a prince, and hence a principality. He was the governor, overseer, lord and master even. Presiding over the asset-stripping of Wales’s mineral wealth, gold, silver, copper, lead, iron.

      I would guess that Plaid wouldn’t be too chuffed for Indy supporters to call it a principality, though I could be wrong. I might also be wrong when I say that the reason when Charles was invested as Prince of Wales there was tight security at Caernarfon Castle including armed officers, was because Plaid had a bit of an upsurge in those days, and there were fears over safety and all that stuff.

      It shows the use of language needs to be aware of history, but also carefully used in the present.

      “Country” is always safe, basically.

    147. K1 says:

      Stephen Bush, political editor of the New Statesman, wrote an article earlier today stating that 3 cabinet ministers and 6 junior ministers were getting prepared for a GE, whether reports like this have legs I don’t know, but it certainly seems like it ‘could’ be a possibility if this article is accurate:

      ‘At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date.

      In addition, a further two associations reported that speakers had suggested moving fundraising events to accommodate a possible contest.

      One minister, who holds a marginal seat in the south, has already designed and written their election address, as has another with a safe seat in the south east; one north-east association has likewise been instructed to provide election material. All have been asked to expedite re-adoption procedures. (Under Tory party rules, sitting MPs face a vote of their local executive if they wish to continue on as the party’s candidate.)

      One association chair was told that the only way to break the deadlock was an election, while another has been informed that even should the withdrawal agreement pass, it will not be done so in a way that retains the support of the DUP, without which the Conservative Party cannot continue to govern.

      Although in theory the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act takes the timing of an election out of the Prime Minister’s hands, in practice, should Theresa May request one it would be forthcoming as the opposition is bound to vote for it.

    148. Heart of Galloway says:

      Well, any visitors of a soft ‘No’ persuasion checking out Wings tonight will be mighty impressed. There’ some seriously high grade analysis going on here which shows this blog at its best.
      Long may it remain so.
      A couple of thoughts: saintly Theresa’s deification by the MSM is her succour and shield.
      C4’s Matt Frei’s snatched interview with Luxembourg’s PM was a perfect case in point:
      “If you don’t give Theresa May the concessions she needs…” asserts Frei as he adds another clip to the ‘it’s all those nasty Europeans’ fault’ archive.
      The trouble is this idiocy is as much a reflection of English public opinion as it is propaganda. Both are two sides of the same xenophobic coin.
      The majority in England to leave was not insignificant – 54 to 46 – and of the two sides, leave was – and continues to be – the more forceful.
      This is not just a function of a disfunctionate anti-EU media. The press is holding up a mirror to England and saying ‘this is what you are’. Logic and reason have fled the field, as witnessed by that braying mob on QT last night.
      There seems to be casual acceptance that Remain commands a lead in England. I am not so sure. IMO as many erstwhile remainers just want May ‘to get on with it’ as there are leave converts to remain. And amid it all ‘end freedom of movement’ has assumed talismanic proportions among those so blind they cannot see.
      What am I saying? England, for the meantime, is lost. Scotland cannot follow her into the wilderness. It may take the reality of our country jbecoming an EU state in her own right that will jolt our neighbours back from the heart of darkness. We can wait no longer. Convince, persuade, encourage everyone we can to ‘yes’.

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      I forgot to mention Maeve. Always one of my favourites in “history”.

    150. defo says:

      Private Fraser ?

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      More like Walker 🙂

    152. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Heart of Galloway –

      Nothing to add to what you said…just acknowledging it.


    153. cynicalHighlander says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      19 January, 2019 at 12:08 am

      Lost me there to be honest.

      My take is that this imaginary democracy in the UK is a total sham from start to finish. When has any of the media challenged the HoL over its changing of laws over us plebs, never as far I know. That the unelected head of state can enoble people in control of that ability to change laws yet the voters have no say whatsover, similar to China no.

    154. Cubby says:

      Sturgeon needs to say to the Maybot and Scotland.

      ” now is not the time to leave the EU now is the time to leave the U.K.”

    155. cynicalHighlander says:

      Hey cactus thanks for music links and I forget who (apologies) over the Dana “Those were the days” link.

      Thanks to both.

    156. Sunshire

      The ‘rumour mill’ is saying tonight that T May wants to call a GE for Feb 28th.

      Her thinking is to possibly de-select some rebels, hope that the DUP might lose some seats in N. Ireland and with Labour in such a poor place in the polls she reckons she could return with a majority gov, not be dependant on the DUP to pass her Deal and so could have one more go on passing her Deal with no objections to the backstop and win.

      A cunning plan! But will it work – it leaves one month till March 29th only one snag… did she promise her MP’s that she would not lead them into the next GE or the 2022 GE ??

    157. chicmac says:

      My opinion, stated for many years, is that May was always been the anointed leaderine of the ultra right cabal. I could see no other explanation for the exoneration she inexplicably enjoyed for all the major errors she made in her ministerial roles, mistakes which would have seen the back of any other miscreant.

      That cabal extends way beyond the theater/pantomime of elected representatives and way into into the military/industrial complex and that population opinion control unit aka the media.

      I do not believe for an instant, that May was a genuine remainer. She may well have voted remain as part of the deception, after all what is one vote? But her, a remainer? IMO, she is not. She is a fully fledged member of that ultra right cabal.

      Her position on trying to leave the ECHR made that abundantly clear to me.

      So who is the ultra right cabal and what do they actually want?

      My assessment is that they are roughly 1/4 of elected representatives, about 1/2 of the media, about 20% of the actual population and 50+% of the industrial/military complex.

      What they want is the transformation of democracy in the UK into a totalitarian, overtly oligarchical, elitist regime while preferably, more in hope than expectation, avoiding the labels ‘fascist’/’Nazi’.

    158. ronnie anderson says:

      Sunshine Re the big yella baw ie The Prisoner Patrick McGoogan , there have been many inane nights over the years on Wings it helped to break the monotony of Britnat baad news , we have always had a laugh as with the serious discussion but we stay focused .

    159. North chiel says:

      The soon to be choice for the people of Scotland : NICOLA’s DEAL!

    160. Hamish100 says:

      Jezza. No.

    161. geeo says:

      Re: GE.

      Because of the fixed term parliament act, labour would require to agree to one, and despite all his bluster, i do not believe for a second Labour want one before brexit happens, in case they somehow win.

      Corbyn’s plan seems to me, to agitate and posture for a GE, knowing it ain’t going to happen, then try get one after brexit has exposed/unleashed it’s shitstorm on the uk (with or without Scotland).

      The problem is, once in power, presuming labour do not campaign to save the day by re joining the EU, they still inherit a total shambles.

      Throw in WM losing Scottish resources after we man the lifeboats, the winner of any upcoming post brexit/indy election, inherits a disaster consumed by a catastrophe.

      There will be an awful lot of English voters, and especially those who voted Leave, utterly furious when they find out they need 40 kilo’s of tenners to buy a Greggs vegan sausage roll after the biggest run on the Pound in history and a cardboard box is worth more than their houses as even workers are taxed into homelessness.

      Does Corbyn REALLY want to inherit that shambles ?

      I say not.

      Interesting times ahead huh ?

    162. sandy says:

      Sorry, OT.

      Just having a wee think. Can anybody help?

      As the present government is that of the UK, how can they legislate, if that is the correct word, on EVEL, & state that Scotland has no say in the matter seemingly their assuming that said government is devolved English.

    163. Sarah says:

      I’ve been thinking about who is entitled to campaign in a referendum about a country regaining its position as an equal with all others.

      Surely it is an “internal” matter and should only be voted on by the residents of that country. As happened in 2014.

      Am I right in thinking that parties and funding from outwith a country are normally banned from that country’s elections?

      In which case, can we not exclude all funding, campaign assistance etc etc from England and from the English parties? They interfered in an internal matter in 2014. If their voices, funds, and bussed in activists had been excluded, don’t you think the outcome would have been different?

      The more I think about it, the more outrageous and weird it seems that the English parties and supporters were involved at all.

    164. Cactus says:

      It’s UK End of Days, Day 5.

      That’s all inclusive.

      No deal.

      Aye wonders if we will be having the return of Chris today.

    165. inkypic says:

      What a pity Labour is such a toothless tiger. Tories are tories but Labour….well.I wonder how they will look back on these times. Lost opportunities everywhere

    166. OneMeatBall says:

      A very satifying read.
      My favourite comment, which unfortunately after the first indyref I am starting to believe is that of Cynicalhighlander and Ianbrotherhood 19thJanuary 12:38am

      Democracy in the UK is a total sham.

      A point of my own is that freedom is never gifted. It must be taken or won.

      I cannot see a way for Scotland to progress or grow without Independence and localised government.

      Matters relating to Scotland should be decided by Scottish people.

      Why is it so hard for some of my countrymen/women to understand this? It seems simple, logical and 100% necessary for the best interests of every Scot.

      It’s not rocket science. Doesn’t take the intelligence of a brain surgeon to figure it out. I know collectively people can be stupid, ignorance of the masses, but I’m pretty sure a 10 year old could figure this out. Fear is the mindkiller!

      With more of our freedoms being sacrificed every day without reproach, how bad must it get before people accept that the problems in Scotland begin and end with Westminster.

      The British Empire is dead. Let it rest in pieces. Embrace the idea of an independent Scotland where democracy has a chance because your vote will actually matter.

      TYVM OneMeatBall has left the building.

    167. Breeks says:

      Cubby says:
      19 January, 2019 at 12:49 am
      Sturgeon needs to say to the Maybot and Scotland.

      ” now is not the time to leave the EU now is the time to leave the U.K.”

      If Scotland stays in the EU, it seems inconceivable that the Union would survive. But history will record dissolution of the Union was not instigated by the Scotland’s rejection of Brexit, but South Britain’s rabid determination to pursue Option Stupid to its natural conclusion against all rational wisdom.

      Even if that notion doesn’t manifest itself as a landslide shift in public opinion, it must have a corrosive effect on the Unionist mindset that their sacred beliefs are binding them to the lunatic option. That can only be a good thing for Scotland.

      Don’t get me wrong, it won’t help our cause to ridicule the BritNats for being on the side of Brexit. But I firmly believe Brexit will sap the morale and drain support amongst Scottish BritNats because it is so transparently ignorant that even a knuckle dragging Orange Order Neanderthal can work it out for themselves.

      We just need to promote the idea that leaving Europe and “losing” Scotland are two inevitable consequences of the same Brexit stupidity. It’s their Unionism that’s destroying their Union and they would have to be Uber-dumb not to see it. What a tricky conundrum for somebody with so few brain cells. Maybe they’ll conveniently self destruct like Daleks after Dr Who confuses them with counterintuitive logic.

    168. Essexexile says:

      The notion that blundering down a course towards no deal will lead to disaster for everyone is, of course, May’s tactic at the moment in a last desperate effort to get her deal through by hook or by crook.
      Bare in mind that if May’s deal + customs union becomes the compromise between no deal and no brexit (as I think is quite likely) then the SNP and many others will probably back it.
      Monday is the last chance saloon for May, her deal and, just possibly, a brexit inspired indy.

    169. Cactus says:

      The United Kingdom is a hostage situation for Scotland, Yes.

      Here’s a real life example:

      Westminster… WANTED for kidnapping.

      Reward: Your FREEDOM.

      Be Dead or Alive.

    170. Ken500 says:

      There will be a GE that the Tories will lose, to get them out of their mess. That is what the Unionists always do. Pass their mess on to others. The are illegally blaming migrants for their illegal policies. Bombing their ciuntries to bits. The Westminster unionist caused the situation of increased migration illegally bombing countries, especially in the Middle East UK/US and Frabce caused the increase in migration throughout Europe. The Illegal wars the unionists caused created the situation.

      The right wing Tories have been trying to get the UK out of the EU ever since the UK voted to join.

      De Gaulle said Non for years and vetoed the UK application. Redwood, Cash, Tebbit Duncan Smith, Hague, Farague and a few other right wing Tories have been trying to get UK out of the EU for nearly forty years. When the population was smaller. Thatcher was taken down because of EU matters. She wanted to stay in the EU. So did Major. ‘The bastards’. The Tories were fighting like rats in a sack, even then. What’s new.

      There are people migrating all over Europe because of the Westminster malicious, evil illegal campaigns bombing the Middle East to bits. The Westminster unionists are culpable of the death and destruction. Most of them should be in jail.

      Westminster unionists have been depopulating Scotlabd for years. Taking Scotland’s wealth and resources to fund London S/E. illegally and secretly. They kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act. The population of Scotland has stagnated. Scotland needs people to survive. London SE is totally congested because of Westminster unionists centrist economic policies.

      The Tories are illegally deporting people out of Scotland who have lived here and contributed for years. It is totally wrong to treat people in such a way. Just appallingly wrong. Breaking the Law is such a malicious cruel way. International and other wise. Just despicable.

      The unionists can be voted out in Scotland within the next 2+ years. A GE, EU, Holyrood and council elections. Another IndyRef when it can be done. With all the other elections going on. A window of opportunity. There will be another GE. The unionists can be voted out in Scotland.

      People should join the SNP. Get out there canvass, donate, contribute and campaign if they are able. Let’s do it. Take back control for peace and prosperity. Scotland can stop the unionists Parties ruining the world,

    171. Luigi says:

      If TM and her blue and red tory enablers really want to hold on to Scotland’s resources (as a number of posters have implied recently), then why on earth are they trying so hard to loose them?

      Either: 1) They are so confident that they can defeat Scottish independence (just like the Brexiteers thought they could defeat the EU – how did that work out?); or 2) They are so proud they could not for one minute entertain the idea of Scotlandshire as an equal partner; or 3) They are just scared shitless, and behaving like fluffy little rabbits in the headlights.

      A wee bit of all three, IMO. 🙂

    172. Ken500 says:

      Labour MP’s are more worried about losing their seats than destroying the UK/world economy. They are just despicable. The Westminster unionists are cowards running away from the responsibilities of mess they have caused with their lies and deceit. It is claimed Corbyn cannot support another EURef and EU menbership because of these people. More worried about themselves then the damage that will be done to the UK/EU economy. A leader who will not do the right thing of what the members want. A waste of time and space. Useless.

    173. Robert Louis says:

      Anybody with any understanding of N.Ireland over the last two decades, could see that slowly, very slowly, the point would come for re-unification. I know many who have said as such.

      This is why the DUP are so very dangerous. They see hard brexit as a good thing, since they know it will, at a stroke, re-install barriers that had become almost meaningless, between Ireland and its partitioned north. Arlene Foster and her knuckle-dragging coterie of homophobes, racists and bigots, would whoop with joy at a hard brexit. Their party would thrive with a new ‘hard’ border re-instated. Re-unification of Ireland, would at a stroke become much, much harder to ever achieve. When the founder of the DUP, Iain Paisley (senior) shouted long and hard, ‘never, never,never’, he and his bigot chums really meant it. It is right at the very heart of what the DUP and its voters believe, heart and soul.

      That is what the DUP stands for. Despite the folks of N.Ireland voting to stay in the EU, the DUP bigots want to make sure they have the hardest of borders in N.Ireland. It is what they believe in.

      As to whether a general election would be called, I think it extremely unlikely. Theresa May will not want to try that trick again – and besides the Tories would need a new leader, (which would cause even more Tory divisions). If one was called, the only upside would be that the SNP could stand on a clear declaration that their mandate would be for immediate withdrawal from the 1707 treaty of union, and retention of EU membership for Scotland. In essence making the election a clear democratic mandate for independence (since Westminster refused section 30 etc..). Of course it would actually need the SNP to do that and not just run again with some ‘for a stronger Scotland’ p*sh.

      I think rumours of a possible election, are however, just a smokescreen to deter NS from calling a referendum on the ending of the treaty of union.

    174. Mike says:


      With regards to Countries and their definitions. By definition you cant have countries within countries because in order to enter or leave a country you have to cross an international border. When you leave Scotland to enter England you cross an International border.
      If Scotland England and Wales are defined as Countries then you cannot by definition call the UK a Country as well.

    175. Ken500 says:

      The DUP will lose votes. 300,000 out of a 1.2million electorate. Opposition votes 450,000. Sin Fein not turning up at Westminster. It would have made it even tighter for the Tories. Unification edging closer, demographically.

      There will be another GE there has to be 2+ years. Or even sooner.

      Support for Independence in Scotland evermore increasing. An IndyRef will be called when it can be won, There is no point otherwise.

      Insulting the SNP does not help Independence. Likewise irrational criticism. When they are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances.

      Instead of armchair cynics ‘little red hens’ wanting everyone else to do something. Why don’t people who care get out there and help campaign. Join the SNP, donate, canvass and campaign if they can. Instead of constant snide criticism, which does not help anyone. Get off their backside and help. If they can. It just needs one person to convince another. Then it can be won.

    176. Robert Peffers says:

      @lumilumi says: 18 January, 2019 at 9:58 pm:
      ” … A gift of Westminster, and Brexit Britain will never let go of their cash cow. You know, that oil that’s so bad for an independent Scotland and so good and vital for Brexit Britain.”

      The answer to that question is an emphatic, “YES”, lumilumi.

      To understand the truth and the real legality of the matter is really not too hard but requires a knowledge how the United Kingdom came about and the legality, and the illegality, of the Treaty of Union that actually created the so called United Kingdom. A knowledge of the actual meaning of words in the English Language is a great help in that understanding.

      It is my opinion that those whose first language is not English are far better able to comprehend the truth than those who learned their English at their mother’s knee.

      Quite simply the Treaty of Union was not a freely agreed treaty in the first place and that, by today’s standards is illegal. The evidence of that illegality is well recorded and remains in the achieves.

      Secondly the only two signatories to the Treaty of Union were kingdoms, not countries, that is where the understanding of English language words comes into play. While a Kingdom may be, “A”, country it also may not be a country but be part of a country or more than one country and thus the United Kingdom is a Kingdom but it has never been, “A” country. It thus remains a two partner kingdom.

      Now, as to the rest of the legal situation – being an international treaty the Treaty of Union is subject to the International Law of International Treaties. The only two signatories must both be equally sovereign otherwise they could not freely agree upon an International Treaty.

      This is where the real problems lie. The two signatory kingdoms had, and still do to this day, have quite different independent Rules of Law and had them in place centuries before they signed The Treaty of Union.

      The Kingdom of England contains three individual countries but, under the Rule of Law each of them was under the country/Kingdom of England by The Divine Right of Kings that each of the three Kingdom of England countries was under. In this a Monarch who either defeated another in war, married another sovereign monarch or inherited another kingdom just became sovereign over the other kingdom.

      England thus did not unite with Wales and Ireland their monarchy annexed them and they became integral parts of the Kingdom of England and were subjected to the English Rule of Law. Which rule of law the Westminster Parliament rebelled against in 1688, deposing their rightful monarch under, “Divine Right of Kings”, and by English Law forced their new duel Monarchs to delegate their sovereignty to the rebel Parliament of England., (See, “The Glorious Revolution”).

      However, the Kingdom of Scotland was legally never annexed by the English Kingdom because, under the then international law, Scotland had not been recognised as being Under Divine Right of Kings since 1320 and the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Now this fact is acknowledged in the actual Written Constitution of the United Kingdom and what constituted the United Kingdom was/is the Treaty of Union 1706/7. Yet Westminster claims the United Kingdom has no written Constitution but simple English language plainly shows that what constituted The United Kingdom was The Treaty of Union.

      So there you go, legally the United Kingdom is not a country. It is legally a two partner kingdom united by an international Treaty of Union.

      Yet the Westminster Parliament has never actually been run as a United Kingdom but as the country of England assuming it had sovereignty over both the Kingdoms of the United Kingdom and has always ignored the actual Treaty of Union and acted as the masters over four countries that includes their only legal partner in the actual United Kingdom.

      Thing is that under independent Scots Law the people of Scotland, not either the Queen of Scots nor the Westminster Parliament, are legally sovereign and Westminster, in spite of that being made clear in Westminster by the Scots and not contested by Westminster.

      The matter is about to come to a head and will inevitably end in the International Courts. Then we will see just who the friends of Scotland are within the international community.

      However, no matter what else, when Indyref2 is held, the People of Scotland can reclaim their Treaty of Union stated right to their legal sovereignty – it is, after all their choice under international law.

    177. Hamish100 says:

      If Sinn Féin Attended the HOC just for a short time ( I understand why the don’t re the oath) they could bring down the Tories and DUP.

    178. Capella says:

      It’s 9 o’clock and the BBC Scotland news website still hasn’t got the Scottish newspapers up. The “British” ones have been up since late last night. Do you think if we had our own media we might be more competent?

    179. Mike says:


      Fascinating stuff as usual. Just a wee point of order though regarding this particular point.

      “Secondly the only two signatories to the Treaty of Union were kingdoms, not countries”

      At this point in history Both Scotland and England were a single Kingdom sharing a single monarch and throne so the signatories to the Act of Union 1707 were in fact COUNTRIES not KINGDOMS as both Countries shared a SINGLE KINGDOM at the time of the Treaty.
      The Treaty of Union 1707 was a Treaty of PARLIAMENTARY UNION the joint Union of 2 Parliaments it was not the Joint Union of 2 Countries or Kingdoms which seems to be a common misconception with those who would see the UK as a single state. The UK is in fact no different in constitutional terms than the EU except where the balance of power and authority lies. Too much power and authority centralised within the Joint Parliament relative to the power and authority that lies with the joint Parliament in Brussels.
      The UK to the EU is only different by degree. Both Parliamentary Unions one treated legitimately as a Parliamentary Union of equal states the other as an annexation of territory. It doesn’t take a genius to work out which is which.

    180. Clootie says:

      The Tories ( and big money) have always played the long game nudging the UK ever right wards.

      The plan is set. They conned Labour into ensuring Art50 locked in Law. May’s plan was irrelevant as it was only a step towards a hard Brexit anyway and the clock was ticking down. They knew the vote would be lost and they conned Corbyn into calling an immediate “no confidence vote”…more time wasted.
      The next step is the public image of the willing debater versus the nasty stubborn Coryn refusing to talk. The media go into full nasty Europe and anti Corbyn rant mode. She then calls a GE. May promised not to lead the party into the next GE and hands over to a Leaver.
      Once again we are being herded. The Tories win big and drive through May’s deal or a No Deal. If Corbyn wins then the Tory Party is saved from blame to return after Corbyn fails.

      A GE also poisons the electoral well as regards Indy2…more time wasting

      This is about the survival of the Tory Party and therefore the profits and lifestyle of the elite ……..nothing else matters.

    181. Clootie says:

      @Capella 09:03

      ….We have a Scottish media!?!? ?

    182. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are not winning. There is now anarchy . The UK has no constructive Gov. There is stalemate and Tory support is falling. The way out for them is to have a GE they can lose. It will happen in any case. They can’t postpone it forever.

    183. Mike says:


      The Tories always win because they are patronised and privileged. A cushy career awaits all of them once they are done with Parliament no matter what state they leave it in when they are ready to move on.
      They always end up richer

    184. T C POTTER says:

      Avoiding EU Tax Evasion Laws are all Brexit was ever really about, everything else is incidental.

    185. T C POTTER says:

      Greed and protection of offshore £ Billions being the only reasons for Brexit shouldn’t be too hard to believe of the elites.

    186. McBoxheid says:

      Cactus says:
      19 January, 2019 at 6:34 am

      The United Kingdom is a hostage situation for Scotland, Yes.

      Here’s a real life example:
      youtube clip ( I can’t copy links and post. My linked posts never arrive)

      Westminster… WANTED for kidnapping.

      Reward: Your FREEDOM.

      Be Dead or Alive.
      This is children’s tv today? Whatever happened to Black Beauty and Schweinchen Dick?
      You spun me round, Cactus, right round….:)

    187. McBoxheid says:

      Schweinchen Dick = Porky Pig

    188. sassenach says:

      Indeed, I also think that the Tax Evasion laws being introduced this year by the EU are the main driver for the Tories to want out quickly – yet I cannot remember any politician, being interviewed, mentioning this.

      Similarly our wonderful MSM seem to have a blindspot about it. I think it helps explain the ‘powers’ driving Mrs May – those with wealth stashed offshore wishing to keep it hidden.

      We are just plebs who are expendable, GSTQ !!!

    189. Clootie says:

      @Hamish100 08:47

      To argue for Sinn Fein attending the Commons is on a par with arguing that the SNP take their allocation of seats in the Lords to have a voice.
      Too many people have been conned into playing by “the rules” in this way.
      I fully understand the frustration you feel but the blame lies with Westminster not Sinn Fein.
      Why should anyone elected to office ignore the public self determination for self determination or a Republic based on election instead of birth. Scot or Irish!

    190. Jim McIntosh says:

      Usual experts? on the ebc radio this morning ie Curtis and some bloke from the Herald ruling out indie ref 2 as main parties would boycott an unofficial one also talking up the terrible war going on in the SNP party,usual stuff. I do hope they are in for a rude awakening.

    191. Golfnut says:

      Lord, here we go again. ‘ The Treaty of Union was between 2 Countries because they were 1 kingdom after the Union of the Crowns.

      1) The proposal to unite the two kingdoms was rejected by the English Parliament in 1603, followed by the Scottish Parliament in 1604. The ‘ crown ‘ is in fact two separate crowns on one head. The monarch gets to decide how they are styled, they choose Great Britain.

      2) Its states Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England in the first line if the Treaty.
      The Acts of Union passed separately by each Parliament state Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of Scotland.

    192. Capella says:

      @ Clootie – well it brands itself BBC Scotland but there’s not much content that you would expect from a broadcaster e.g. news.

      The main website had a link to a Radio 1 review of “Mary Queen of Scots” (gone now) where it is described as a slice of Tudor history! It also complains that she speaks English with a Scottish accent when everybody knows she spoke English with a French accent.
      I would have thought she spoke Scots. These Tudors eh – what are they like?

    193. Tam the Bam. says:

      David Clegg of the Daily Rancid on GMS BBC SCOTLANDSHIRE there
      refusing to reveal his ‘source’ re Alex Salmond ‘leak.’
      Leslie Evans and her minions breathe a sigh of relief.

    194. Clootie says:

      Westminster/Whitehall are the public face of the elite. Those in the background are wealthy, organised and motivated. They control the media and they are represented in EVERY appointed organisation in the UK.

      History provides the evidence that this group are street fighters, very polite and educated street fighters, but still street fighters. They have vast experience in underhand tactics ( refer to every country who left the Empire).

      if we continue to follow the Marquis of Queensbury rules in an engagement with the “Empire” we will continue to lose. I am not calling for an armed rising but the Indian/Ghandi non cooperation model has merit. Holyrood was designed to promote the image that we need Westminster. They have conned people into believing we have control…even Richard Leonard believes we have control of everything. Richard Leonard is a good example of their tactics…need I say more?

    195. call me dave says:

      @Tam the Bam and Jim
      Heard all that Curtis forecasting and SNP at war stuff from Clegg and friends.

      Shereen to follow with A.Haggerty on the panel so more SNP bad. Par for the course in Scotland. ?

    196. Capella says:

      Re Radio Scotland and its unionist bias – they have clearly given up pretending to be a public broadcasting service so we can safely ignore them and leave them to talk amongst themselves.

      Building our own media and spreading the message far and wide is the best means of countering the daily drip of propaganda. How they must hate the internet.

    197. Capella says:

      Had to use Google to find that review of Mary Queen of Scots on Radio 1. (BBC website search facility is hopeless) It’s about Tudor England you know.

    198. Bob Mack says:

      Civil War ? It’s in their own heads. It’s wishful thinking.

      I care not if Nicola likes Alex or vice versa. I support independence first and last. That fact overcomes any other. This is no longer about personalities or party, but rather about voting for those who make indy possible whatever their hue.

      Fortunately I found some ammunition for the conflict. In my bread bin there were two scones bought at New Year, which now have the consistency of cannonballs. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    199. starlaw says:

      Radio Shortbread on full ahead Propaganda this morning I’m enjoying the laugh, who do they think they are kidding, and Clegg with his N Irish accent is just icing on the cake.

    200. Mike says:


      The proposal to unite the 2 Kingdoms was not rejected in 1603 the proposal was to unite the 2 thrones into 1 and to reject the unity of the 2 COUNTRIES into a SINGLE STATE as a result.
      This upset James VI who wanted the full Unity package of Throne and State.

      So while the Kingdoms were united into a Single monarchy the COUNTRY STATES remained distinctly separate.

    201. Capella says:

      BBC now finds the Scottish newspapers and uploads them at 10.30, almost 12 hours after the British papers go online.

      Just updating you on that top news item.

    202. starlaw says:

      Capella 10-01

      Mary Queen of Scots spoke French she learned from her mum then in France from about the age of five. Lots of Scots spoke French.

    203. Grouse Beater says:

      2014 was the best time to have reinstated independence. The moment is fast running out before the British state outlaws it.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘The Wealth of Scotland’:
      ‘Ice and Snow’:

    204. Cubby says:

      Mike @10.43am

      “Single monarchy” should say single monarch imo.

    205. Ahundredthidiot says:

      The UK would love to ditch NI, it must be soooo tempting, but to do so means Scotland goes too…..with all Her oil and wealth……so it’s oot! a Catch 22. The UK is….


    206. Phronesis says:

      Scotland is stuck in the Matrix- not a dystopian future created by thought-capable machines (caveat- there might be an exception for WM leadership) but the Stacey Matrix. Scotland is on the edge of Brexit chaos because WM can’t function in the zone of complexity. WM is inhabited by concrete thinkers who have not mastered the art of two dimensional thinking about degree of certainty and level of agreement. WM is a hopelessly maladaptive system.

      Scotland has a way to step back from the edge of chaos in the Stacey Matrix with its enabling partnership of transformational leadership and an educated electorate leading the way. Highly creative, innovative with positive approaches to social and global diversity.

      ‘In Transformational Leadership we learned that one characteristic of the transforming leader is dealing with complexity, ambiguity and uncertainty
      A leader who deals with complexity is an enabler. They embrace complexity and adapt to change. They deal with uncertainty by:
      • saying yes to the mess,
      • encouraging connectivity,
      • fostering diversity,
      • challenging habits and assumptions,
      • supporting initiative,
      • reducing power differentials, and
      • keeping people motivated’

    207. Mike says:


      That would contradict the point I was making.

    208. Capella says:

      @ starlaw – yes I know she spoke French. But did she speak English or Scots? The Radio 1 review comments that the poor actress had to speak English with a Scottish accent. I would have thought that the Scottish court in the 16th Century would have spoken Scots as in the poetry of William Dunbar.

      I have also read that the Highland Chiefs spoke Gaelic and French but not much English yet you never see a film of them speaking Gaelic – except now with Outlander. Good for Diane Gabaldon (author of the Outlander series) who researched the Gaelic they would have spoken at the time of Culloden.

    209. galamcennalath says:


      Ah, but did Mary speak Scots with a French accent and/or French with a Scottish accent?

      Late 16thC I doubt if many Scots spoke English. Perhaps when necessary to make themselves understood by their southern neighbours.

    210. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – snap! 🙂

    211. galamcennalath says:

      Sorry Capella, I posted before I saw your last message.

    212. Maria F says:

      Mike says:
      19 January, 2019 at 9:07 am

      “At this point in history Both Scotland and England were a single Kingdom sharing a single monarch and throne so the signatories to the Act of Union 1707 were in fact COUNTRIES not KINGDOMS as both Countries shared a SINGLE KINGDOM at the time of the Treaty”

      Sorry Mike, but I disagree with that assertion in the strongest possible terms. Claiming such indicates to me that or you have not read the Treaty of Union even once or worse, you really were not paying attention at all to what you were reading.

      So I politely invite you to read the Treaty of Union once again. As far as I remember, the word “country” or the word “countries” were NEVER mentioned throughout the treaty even once. The word “Kingdoms”, however, is mentioned at least FIVE times:

      Article I starts:
      That the TWO KINGDOMS of Scotland and England…

      Article 5 indicates:
      “That all ships or vessels belonging to Her Majesties Subjects of Scotland at the time of Ratifying the Treaty of Union of the TWO KINGDOMS in the Parliament of Scotland…”

      Article 15:
      “That before the Union of the said KINGDOMS, the sum of £398,085 10s be granted to Her Majesty by…”

      Article 22:
      “…And that Parliament may Continue for such time only as the present Parliament of England might have Continued, if the Union of the TWO KINGDOMS had not been made…”

      Article 25
      “That all Laws and Statutes in EITHER Kingdom so far as they are contrary to, or inconsistent with the Terms of these Articles, or any of them, shall from and after the Union cease and become void, and shall be so declared to be by the respective Parliaments of the said KINGDOMS”.

      Therefore one can only concluded that at the time of writing such document Scotland was seen as a separate kingdom from that of England. This is confirmed by the fact that the words “Kingdom of Scotland” are also included in the document:

      Article 14:
      “That the KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND be not Charged with any other Duties…”

      Article 15:
      “…That all the publick Debts of the KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND as shall be adjusted by this present Parliament…”

      Article 18:
      “…and that all other Laws, in use within the KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in the same force as before…”

      Article 19:

      “…And that all other Courts NOW in being within the KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND do remain, but subject to…”

      Article 24
      “That from and after the Union, there be One Great Seal for the United Kingdom of Great Britain, which shall be different from the Great Seal NOW USED IN EITHER KINGDOM; And that the Quartering the Arms and the Rank and Precedency of the Lyon King of Arms of the KINGDOM OF SCOTLAND as may best suit…”

      So sorry, Mike, but from the document it is more than evident that while the crowns of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England may have been already be sitting at that time being over the same head, it was not obvious to those who wrote the document, or those who pushed for the document to be written, for even a second that the crowns would be permanently under the same head from then on. And that fact can only be explained if the crown of Scotland was not really the ownership of the monarch who was holding it but the ownership of the people of Scotland, who in the same way that took the crown from one monarch and gave it to another, could do it again at will. This is also evident if you read the Claim of Right 1869. It very clearly states there that absolute ruling by a monarch is unlawful in Scotland.

      “The Treaty of Union 1707 was a Treaty of PARLIAMENTARY UNION the joint Union of 2 Parliaments it was not the Joint Union of 2 Countries or Kingdoms which seems to be a common misconception”

      No Mike. Read the Treaty. The Union was a POLITICAL union and the main reason for it was not to unite the Parliaments but to ensure that a catholic never took control of the crown of Scotland. If you read the document even once, you will realise of that immediately as it is rather evident. The succession to the crown of Scotland was all what mattered here.

      I am sorry, but I think it is you with the misconception here.

      “The UK is in fact no different in constitutional terms”

      Please can you elaborate exactly how that is the case? You can start by kindly presenting the written constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. So far, the only one I can find is the actual Treaty of Union and the 2 Acts of Union.

      “Both Parliamentary Unions one treated legitimately as a Parliamentary Union of equal states the other as an annexation of territory”

      Mike, could I perhaps persuade you to include in such assertion a very important word that I think you may have forgotten to include:

      “Both Parliamentary Unions one treated legitimately as a Parliamentary Union of equal states the other ILLEGITIMATELY as an annexation of territory”

      And I say ILLEGITIMATELY because nowhere, NOWHERE throughout the entire Treaty of Union is ever stated that the union is anything else than a political union to secure the succession of protestants to the throne of the Kingdom of Scotland and most certainly it is not stated anywhere that the Treaty of Union is an annexation of Scotland.

    213. Rick H Johnston says:

      @capella. Mary certainly spoke Scots.
      Awbody did in thae days, tho she wad hae spoken it wi a kinna refined French accent.
      It’s juist a pity this wisnae reflectit in the film. She wad lairn tae speik the (ither) Queen’s Inglish whan she wis in captivity.

    214. sassenach says:

      Maria F @11-09

      Thank you for that post, most clear and informative.

    215. Legerwood says:

      Capella says:
      19 January, 2019 at 11:05 am
      @ starlaw – yes I know she spoke French. But did she speak English or Scots? The Radio 1 review comments that the poor actress had to speak English with a Scottish accent. I would have thought that the Scottish court in the 16th Century would have spoken Scots as in the poetry of William Dunbar.””

      Definitely Scots. From at least 15th century onwards all Acts passed by the Scots Parliament were written in Scots. I think it was James I or James IzI who decreed that the Acts of Parliament should be in Scots therefore it is more than likely to have been the language used at court with French as a subsidiary perhaps. The Auld Alliance and all that.

    216. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      19 January, 2019 at 11:05 am

      Ah, but did Mary speak Scots with a French accent and/or French with a Scottish accent?

      Can’t give you a source, but I’m sure I’ve heard or read somewhere that when Mary arrived from France she addressed the gathered assembly there to greet her spontaneously in broadest Auld Scots.

      The funny thing is, I have a sneaking suspicion that might be something I picked up from one of David Starkey’s somewhat parochial views of history aired on the BBC. So be warned the source is quite definitely unreliable. Then again, Starkey seemed to thoroughly disapprove, so it could be right enough. 😉

    217. Proud Cybernat says:

      Yes, geographically you can have a country within another country (an enclave) but not politically i.e. politically they are separate countries.

      And yes – language is important. How many times do we read on this forum complaints from posters when we hear TMay or BBC reporters speaking about “the country”? How many posters here object to the BritNats doing that? All I am saying is that we shouldn’t be helping BritNats like TMay & BBC define what ‘country’ means to them because what ‘country’ means to them is completely different to what it means to me and many others here on WoS.

      Wales is also a country according to this updated UK Gov paper (see footnote 20):

      The United Kingdom is not a country, it’s a ‘Union’ of countries. The clue is in the name.

    218. Muscleguy says:

      I think Dominic Raab might be the Albert Speer figure. It explains his voting against the deal he supposedly negotiated. He too was in a hostage situation and given the opportunity he disobeyed rather than accept a pig in a poke.

    219. Cubby says:


      “Monday is the last chance saloon for May , her deal, and just possibly a Brexit inspired Indy.”

      Give it a rest Mr Doom. You always seem to find some sort of negative in your posts against Scottish independence. You’ve been rumbled.

    220. chicmac says:

      French gradually replaced Latin as the main Lingua Franca used internationally for diplomacy and legal matters. Religion retained Latin.

      French became the international language of diplomacy and Law and still arguably is although in recent history English, no doubt due the influence of the USA, that title may be changing.

      So at one time it was expected that anyone anywhere with ambitions to deal internationally, learned French.

      For example, the Russian court habitually spoke French even though there was little by way of French connections (Russia invariably imported German royals when they needed to).

    221. Cubby says:

      Robert Louis @7.35am

      I agree with your excellent post other than one point. I believe a no deal and the possibility of a hard border/ risk of the return of the troubles will motivate the good people of N . Ireland to insist via the good Friday agreement on a border poll and will win a United ireland. 2 years of no devolved gov will help make up minds that the UK is not working for them. The changes in Ireland over recent times will also help win the border poll for a United ireland.

    222. Cubby says:


      Yes it would wouldn’t it. We have two monarchies today with one monarch. So if you are correct when did they separate?

    223. ben madigan says:

      @ Hamish100 who says:

      “If Sinn Féin Attended the HOC just for a short time ( I understand why the don’t re the oath) they could bring down the Tories and DUP”.

      Not directed at you personally Hamish but I really can’t understand this “yearning” for SF to join Westminster.
      Hope for some external element to set things right for the UK?

      Just to be quite clear: SF are an Irish Republican Party which has stood on abstentionist policy for over 100 years. They don’t want the UK interfering in ireland and they don’t want to interfere in the UK.

      The Brexit dilemma is none of their business – they didn’t cause it and they have no business trying to solve it for the UK.

      Even if they had the numbers – which they don’t.

      Can’t you imagine the reaction among the English, were they to attempt to do so?

      Bloody irishmen, coming over here and wrecking our parliament!

    224. Maria F says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      19 January, 2019 at 12:00 pm

      “The United Kingdom is not a country, it’s a ‘Union’ of countries. The clue is in the name”

      Please forgive me for being so annoyingly picky, Proud Cybernat, but we have to try and be precise to avoid leaving any avenue open to be exploited as a confusion tool by British Nationalists.

      As far as I can see, the United Kingdom is not really “a union of countries” at all. It is a union of kingdoms and that is what it has always been.

      This union of kingdoms indeed encompasses more than one country, but the union was not between “countries” as such, but between kingdoms. For instance, there is no doubt that Wales, a different country, was already part of the Kingdom of England. Wales was never an individual partner in this union, it was part of one – it is not even reflected in the flag.

      I am not that sure the clue is in the name either. I personally find the name incredibly confusing and open to many interpretations:

      “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”

      If you know nothing of the history, you could interpret it in different ways:

      [the United Kingdom of Great Britain] + Northern Ireland


      The United Kingdom of [Great Britain + Northern Ireland]


      The United [Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]

      Which one reflects reality?

      I am not sure any of them 3 does to be frank (I welcome other interpretations). Why? Because the crown of Ireland had already passed to be permanently under the monarch of England in 1542 by the act of annexation, so effectively the monarch of England would always be thereafter the monarch of Ireland. In addition, Ireland was under much direct political control from the Kingdom of England before the act of union 1800. The 2 crowns were permanently united by the act of annexation, so I do not know how the Kingdom of Scotland could be united to the Kingdom of England via the Treaty of Union without being united to the Kingdom of Ireland too. In my view the “United Kingdom of Great Britain” already contained the crown of Ireland too.

      The case of Ireland’s annexation was completely different to the case regarding Scotland’s crown. While the Claim of Right 1689 lent the crown of Scotland to Queen Anne, this was by no means a permanent arrangement, as it was confirmed by the Act of Security 1704 which reserved the Parliament of Scotland the right to select a successor to Queen Anne among the successors of Scottish Kings (and here is yet another proof that it was not the monarch in Scotland who was sovereign but the people of Scotland). This Act of Security sent shivers down the spine of those in control of England and it was really that Act what accelerated the negotiations for the Treaty of Union 1707.

      So perhaps if I have to choose an interpretation among the 3 for the name, I would go reluctantly with the last one and understand that the name “Great Britain” does not really refer to the original United Kingdom of Great Britain, but rather refers to the geographical name of Great Britain, the big island where Scotland, Wales and England are. If I had to choose an accurate name for this Kingdom, I would have chosen the exact name that it was given in 1707: “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, because to me that is exactly what this united kingdom still is since then, bar most of the former Kingdom of Ireland that is now a republic and no longer under the political control of the Kingdom of England.

      I however very much welcome others interpretations on this. I find this matter and the many different interpretations of this adopted by different sides of the political spectrum fascinating because those different interpretations lead to completely diverging conclusions.

    225. Mike says:

      @Maria F

      No its a Parliamentary union just like the EU but without the equality.

    226. Mike says:

      @proud Cybernat

      By definition it is impossible to have a Country within a Country because in order to enter or leave a Country you have to cross an International border.
      You cannot by definition cross an International border and remain in the same country unless its Schroedingers Land within the World of Disney.

    227. Mike says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Can you provide an example of when an enclave is a Country within a Country?

    228. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mike “By definition you cant have countries within countries because in order to enter or leave a country you have to cross an international border.

      As I said, there are many definitions of “country”, what you’re referrring to is “State”, and even on that debates can rage as in for instance the “states” (with a small s – or is it a big S) of the USA.

      Here’s an example of country, apart from the San Marino one given (add Monaco):

      That’s NOT including Catalonia’s bid to escape Spain.

      This debate / argument dates back even to UseNet of the 90s and before, not even including the UK, Scotland, Wales etc. The fact the debate has gone on so long, proves there are genuine multiple definitions. The definition is in the eye of the beholder.

    229. Mike says:


      We share a Monarch with a Commonwealth of Nations not a Monarchy we share a Monarchy with England and Wales.

    230. Golfnut says:

      @ Maria F.

      May I say 2 very good posts.

      In your answer to Mike, you could have added the obvious contradiction to his comment ‘re the Union of the Crowns.
      James was The VI of Scotland and first of England, Charles was the same for both Knigdoms, but there was of course James the VII of Scotland and II of England.
      Then of course
      King billy, William the III of England and Ireland on the 22nd of January 1689 and William 11 of Scotland on the 4th of April 1689.

    231. Capella says:

      @ Legerwood – yes I agree that they must surely have spoken Scots. What would be the point of having a court makar writing in Scots if nobody could understand the language. If Mary was born and raised in Scotland then she must have spoken Scots and French.

      Someday, when we have our own film and broadcasting industry, we can make a proper historical drama (with subtitles).

    232. Hamish100 says:

      ben Madigan – if SF turned up just think how the DUP would feel. Priceless!!

    233. Mike says:


      What contradiction? Scotland had 6 monarchs on its throne with the name James England had 1 when James the VI/I was on the throne. It was an indication of the name of the Monarch not an indication of a separation of the Crown itself.
      Wasn’t Queen Victoria Queen Victoria the I of both Scotland and England Wales?

    234. Mike says:


      So you can travel the world without entering or leaving a country then. By definition or lack of?

    235. Cubby says:

      Mike @1.35pm

      Trying to confuse things again Mike. I think you are just a wrecker on Wings trying to sow confusion and doubt. At least since being warned you are toning down your offensive language. I don’t think you are genuine in the least.

      “We share a monarch with a Commonwealth of Nations not a monarchy (CORRECT) we share a monarchy with England and Wales (INCORRECT).”

    236. Mike says:


      Can you give me any examples of Countries that are defined as Countries in different ways?

    237. Mike says:


      Ok so please do elaborate why it is we don’t share a monarchy with England and Wales when the monarchy itself thinks we do?

    238. Mike says:


      Can you explain the difference in the relationship we have with our Monarchy relative to the relationship England and Wales has with theirs?

    239. Iain mhor says:

      @Maria F 1:07pm

      The geographical interpretation is closest to truth.
      But to understand why the latter two options don’t work, use the plural ‘Kingdoms’ not Kingdom and it becomes clearer.
      “The United Kingdoms of Great Britain”
      That excludes N.I by not meeting the criteria of being both a Kingdom & Geographically part of ‘Great Britain’ and therefore why it is always tacked on – a double semantic bar to its inclusion.

      Could it be resolved? Well funnily enough dropping the ‘Great Britain’ is probably the only way. That leaves “United Kingdom” (not Kingdoms) as a single unitary construct incorporating all its elements. Indeed that is how it is perceived. Of course that leads unfortunately to the supposition that the identities and sovereignties of the incorporated elements have been excised and cease to exist; that a new Nation has been created – compare USA or UAE where the plural remains recognizing the elements comprising the “Unity”

      All very semantic and entertaining of course, but there is one other way which has been commonly used for centuries to the present day – that is to just use “England” as a synonym.

    240. Capella says:

      Finally, Here’s a Jean Redpath rendition of “Mary Hamilton” using the Scots that the ballad preserves from at least the 16th C.

      Lyrics in Wiki here:

    241. Shinty says:

      Two Kingdoms, two crowns & one heid!
      How easy is that.

    242. Mike says:

      If Scotland were to become a Republic overnight or a Theocracy it would still retain its exact same status as a Country because its National border boundaries wouldn’t change. Its the definition of the boundaries around the area you wish to define that determines its status.
      For example in order to make an area a County you would have to create borders and define them as County borders. Everything within those borders is within the county. The same goes with States Countries and Continents.
      Once you’ve defined the border boundaries you create the definition of what is within.
      That’s why you cant have Countries within Countries because in order to leave or enter one country you have to cross over a boundary into a different country. You cannot cross a defined national/international border and remain in the same country.

      Its not rocket science.

    243. yesindyref2 says:

      Your questions are meaningless, and argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

    244. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just back from Mary Queen of Scots and have to say the two young ladies were absolutely superb.

      I prefer Saoirse Ronan’s performance to the RP performance of Vanessa Redgrave of some years ago – my ears were perfectly happy to accept both her French and Scots.

    245. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – going to see it next Friday and looking forward to it 🙂

    246. Maria F says:

      Golfnut says:
      19 January, 2019 at 1:36 pm

      “In your answer to Mike, you could have added the obvious contradiction to his comment ‘re the Union of the Crowns”

      You are totally right and thank you for pointing that out. When you look at it from that perspective it is so obvious, and yet, it did not even cross my mind.

      I think the different titles that the same monarchs had for both kingdoms is the best evidence of them all.

      Now I wonder if the insistence of calling HM as Elizabeth II across all the UK rather than Elizabeth II in England and Elizabeth the I in Scotland is yet another way of undermining Scotland making it look like a part of the kingdom of England rather than a different Kingdom entirely.

    247. I keep. Hearing we will have another ref., when we know that yes is ahead how are we going to know ??? The phoney poles and the msm will always tell you that no is ahead whether that is true or not so this waiting to hear that yes is ahead is a cop out

    248. Golfnut says:

      Internationally recognised legal jurisdiction defines the boundaries of any Kingdom or country. England’s stops at the border with Scotland, Scotland’s stops at the border with England, that’s why referring to the UK as the country is legally inaccurate and misleading.

    249. Hamish100 says:

      Maria f — yes be it PO letter boxes, legal documents that Scotland has a QE2 is part of the establishment view that we (Scots) do not exist.

    250. Legerwood says:

      Maria F @ 3.32pm

      The most obvious differences confirming two kingdoms which I am surprised no one has mentioned is that in Scotland the Queen:
      a) wears a different Crown

      b) bears a different Coat of Arms – the Unicorn and Lions are in different quadrants from the Coat of Arms she bears in England

      c) flies a different Royal Standard

      d) her heirs and offspring are known by different titles to the ones used in England

      e) has a completely different relationship vis-a-vis the Church of Scotland than she does to the Church of England. She is only an associate member and has no power to appoint ministers apart from her personal Chaplain. The Church of Scotland alone of the Reformed Churches of Europe is the only one never to have had a Prince or Monarch as the head of the Church.

      In fact all of these points are the counter argument to those who try to downplay Scotland’s position by referring to it as a region on a par with a local council or county in England. I cannot think of any region in England where all, or any, of the above apply.

    251. Maria F says:

      Iain mhor says:
      19 January, 2019 at 2:07 pm

      “but there is one other way which has been commonly used for centuries to the present day – that is to just use “England” as a synonym”

      ha, ha, ha!! absolutely. It is funny though, I have recently revisited some older films and in all of them it is not really the term “United Kingdom” what is used. It is always “England”. Scotland was seen as “something” towards the north. So this tells me that this current obsession with British nationalism is relatively recent.

    252. Maria F says:

      Legerwood says:
      19 January, 2019 at 3:50 pm

      Thank you Legerwood. As we know, information is power and strength. The more information we can compile and the more aware on all these matters we become the less we will be fooled and taken on by the disinformation and lies of those attempting to undermine Scotland.

    253. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , this week I have seen The Favourite which I found boring , over acted, lacking in story line and having counted three pukings in unsuitable receptacles and a disinterested handjob , I gave up.

      Stan and Ollie beautifully performed even if the storyline was a tad thin.
      I had intended also seeing Colette but a good friend told me not to bother unless I was into watching lesbian sex scenes.

    254. Dorothy Devine says:

      cont. I’m sure you will enjoy Mary Queen of Scots!

      For me I have actually seen three months worth of film in one week!

    255. Thepnr says:


      “Can you provide an example of when an enclave is a Country within a Country?

      You are wrong once again, the border between Lesotho and South Africa is an international border. So it is entirely possible to have “a country within a country”.

      Lesotho, officially the Kingdom of Lesotho is an enclaved country within the border of South Africa.

      It is just over 30,000 km2 (11,583 sq mi) in size and has a population of around 2 million. Its capital and largest city is Maseru.

      Lesotho was previously the British Crown Colony of Basutoland, but it declared independence from the United Kingdom on 4 October 1966. It is now a fully sovereign state that is a member of the United Nations

    256. Mike says:


      Except you have to leave South Africa in order to enter Lesotho and leave Lesotho in order to enter South Africa. Lesotho is not a Country within South Africa it is a Country that BORDERS South Africa Just like Vatican City BORDERS Italy.

    257. Mike says:


      Your inability to answer those questions proves the point I make.

    258. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – I watch a lot of films too. Currently watching Outlander on Amazon Prime and The Road to Calvary on Netflix. It’s a Russian film made by Putin’s state funded TV and from a book by Stalin lickspittle Alexei Tolstoy.

      It’s excellent. Starts just before WWI and the Revolution which follows, all the way up to WWII. Great cast and photography.

      I’d like to see Collette as I read all her books and particularly liked her autobiography “Break of Day”. Will just look away if there are embarrassing scenes!

      If you boycott BBC there’s more good films than time to watch them. 🙂

    259. Cubby says:


      Not got the time to educate all the Britnats who come on Wings particularly those who are on Wings just to disrupt, attempt to cause confusion and argue with everyone about anything. If others want to do so then fine. I believe you know you are wrong but are just wanting to argue for your own Britnat reasons.

    260. Thepnr says:


      You’re funny, you are looking for the definition of “within” or is it “country”?

      Lesotho is a country. Undisputable fact, no?

      Lesotho is a country entirely within the borders of South Africa, no?

      The answers to both questions are YES.

      Lesotho is therefore a country within the borders of another country.

      “Except you have to leave South Africa in order to enter Lesotho and leave Lesotho in order to enter South Africa.”

      That’ll be because there is an international border between South Africa and Lesotho because you can’t get to Lesotho without crossing that border.

      Bye Mike, you’re a waste of my time 🙂

    261. Mike says:


      No Lesotho has its own borders that’s what makes it Lesotho and not South Africa. When you’re in Lesotho you are NOT IN South Africa you’ve left South Africa and entered Lesotho.

      You’re a waste of your own time.

    262. Mike says:


      Where I wrong you would be correct in your accusation but the problem is Im right and all Im doing is responding to people who are posting to me and being nice about it when you clearly don’t deserve nice but Ive been warned so I have to be nice.

    263. Thepnr says:


      Yet you’re a waste of everybody’s time with your obfuscation.

    264. Thepnr says:


      So c’mon, is Lesotho within the borders of another country?

    265. Donald Bruce says:

      I have from start of Brexit thought that the ruling class who have bankrolled this mess have plan that is working. They are changing England into a Singapore type state. Great for the wealthy. Scotland they need to encourage to leave. They will cherry pick the bits they wish to retain like nuc base and some oil access. It will be good for Scotla d within the EU

    266. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mike “Your inability to answer those questions proves the point I make.

      Nope, it is as I say – Your questions are meaningless, and argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It’s really not important enough. I’ve already defined country, and have no intention of going round in cicles, same as with HYUFD, who goes round in circles.


    267. Benhope says:

      When does a Range Rover/Range Rover Discovery become a Land Rover?

      I seriously damaged my car today. Could I please have a new one tomorrow?

    268. Macart says:

      Plan A is plan B for sure and no, May isn’t listening to anyone. She’s paying lip service and can kicking for her own purposes. Gambling on the difference between disaster and catastrophe to focus the minds of parliamentarians and the public. A false choice presented as the only choice, where only a very few come out as winners. Using the cameras and the post to play for time and sympathy.

      As for her seemingly teflon like ability to stay in office? Yes, she could have been brought down at least twice by her own party and the DUP, but they don’t really want that and neither does Corbyn…yet. The Conservative’s right may not have been able to remove her but they do so love being in power and there are enough Brexiteers in the ranks of the party as a whole to know that only by being in power can they achieve their wet dream.

      Labour’s leadership? Oh boy. Just as divided really.This isn’t some cunning three dimensional chess plan which will deliver unicorns at the last second. Mr Corbyn would personally deliver a Brexit no less as disastrous to the UK’s population. Nor could he deliver any deal that would differ greatly from Ms May’s. The UK’s red lines don’t matter a damn, ONLY those of the EU, and they’ve been pretty clear they’re not up for debate or negotiation.

      In short? Both parties are keeping May in power to carry that can she’s so fond of kicking. After she’s fulfilled that purpose…(shrugs).

      I suppose the aim behind the Tory right’s plan is social and economic remodeling. That millions will suffer hardship and the likely removal of both civil and human rights means less than nothing to them. The end result is what matters. It’s about making an idyll that’s fit for them to live and thrive in. ‘Course the folk on the receiving end of this remodeling (that’d be the majority of the current populations) may not see it quite in terms of an idyll when the wossiname hits the fan and reality bites.

      Personally, I’d rather we weren’t around to see that other shoe drop. People tend to take that sort of abuse poorly dontchaknow and it’ll tend to get right fractious and all over the place all at once. I don’t think the architects of this great (sarc) social and economic experiment have thought this omnishambles through entirely you know. 😎

    269. Mike says:


      No its not once you enter Lesotho your in Lesotho not South Africa To get within the borders of South Africa from Lesotho you have to cross the Lesotho border until you do you’re not within the borders of South Africa.

      You seem to be wilfully abusive today I am going to be force to report you for abusive wilful ignorance?

    270. Mike says:


      Another wee soul who is incapable of admitting when he’s wrong. No wonder people throw abuse around here its like folk go out of their way to ask for it.

    271. Thepnr says:


      Wan’t to know the truth? I don’t even think there is any kind of “great plan” behind Brexit from either side. All there is are the slogans “take back control of our money, our laws and our borders”.

      Seriously I really believe that this is the sum total of it, no great plan to get rid of the Human rights act nor avoid the new EU tax avoidance laws or anything else really.

      I realise I might be in a very small minority here but I see as ALL being ideological. The slogans are GREAT and they think that’s what they’re getting when the reality of course is somewhat different.

      Corbyn is just as bad if not worse, he wants Brexit for ideological reasons such as state aid yet fails to appreciate state aid and state ownership IS ALLOWED under UE rules.

      We didn’t have to sell off the railways, the post office or the utility companies because of the EU. In fact in most of the EU these are still in state hands.

      Only the greedy fucker Tories decided to sell off the jewels in the crown of state assets.

      I despair now, what to do? Soldier on in the cause of Independence is all that’s left it seems, so I’ll just do that.

    272. Thepnr says:


      Yeah report me then, I won’t bother reporting you, all of Wings can see that you’re a total fanny without my input LOL 🙂

    273. Mike says:


      You’re wilfully ignorant. You cannot be within the borders of South Africa if you’re within the borders of Lesotho because in order to get within the borders of South Africa you have to cross the Lesotho border in order to leave Lesotho and enter South Africa. You know this is true but are choosing wilfully to deny it which I find very abusive.

      Arguing and wasting time as space for no good reason.

    274. Thepnr says:


      Don’t go blowing a gasket now, you don’t want to upset anyone 🙂

    275. Mike says:


      And what Crown does she wear for the Commonwealth?

    276. Thepnr says:


      Last try then, is Lesotho a country whose borders are entirely within the borders of another country?

      Yes or No?

    277. Mike says:


      I would blow a gasket if I found out I didn’t know what a country was. lol.

    278. Mike says:


      No for all the reasons I have repeated told you.

    279. Thepnr says:


      Is Lesotho a country then?

    280. Mike says:


      When you are within the borders of Lesotho you’re not within the borders of South Africa.

    281. Mike says:


      For the sake and illustration of the point Im making yes. We can equally go with Vatican City if you want?

    282. Mike says:


      Vatican City is not within the borders of Italy.

    283. Thepnr says:


      Obfuscation of the highest order, not a difficult question is it, even for the most mentally challenged Scot LOL.

      In your opinion is Lesotho a country?

    284. Mike says:


      My opinion wont make or dismiss the status of Lesotho.

      It is recognised as a Country therefore it must be surrounded by its own National border.

    285. Mike says:


      Is Lesotho surrounded by its own National border?

    286. Thepnr says:


      Hurrah we have made progress, “It is recognised as a Country therefore it must be surrounded by its own National border.”

      This is so true, well done in getting there.

      Second stage now, are the borders of the country Lesotho entirely contained within the borders of another country?

      The country of South Africa to be precise?

    287. Mike says:


      Lesotho is a country within SOUTHERN AFRICA as is South Africa.

      Is that not so?

    288. Cubby says:


      I give you full permission not to be nice to me.

    289. Mike says:


      Are you going to pitifully pretend my argument has changed? Really? You want to be perceived as that pathetic?

      You cannot contain the borders of one country within the borders of another country by definition of what is and what isn’t a national border. When you cross a national border you leave the borders of one country to enter the borders of another. That’s why you have border checks on both sides of a border.

      Wibble wibble wibble.

    290. Tom Busza says:

      What the hell has Lesotho, South Africa or anywhere else in this world, have anything to do with Scottish Independence. Arguing about “what is a country” seems so stupid.

      Let’s look at definition of country (OK, Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source, but when several several dependable refernces are cited, maybe some credulity may not come amiss).

      Quote: “A country is a region that is identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or part of a larger state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with sets of previously independent or differently associated people with distinct political characteristics. etc.

      Mike, as I have posted before, and having observed your behaviour on WoS, I repeat (taken from the on-line Urban Dictionary) 3 definitions:

      1. A person who is not only lacking in clue but is apparently unable or unwilling to acquire clue even when handed it on a plate in generous portions.
      2. An individual with absolute no wits or intelligence and tries to come off smart.
      3. A person so lacking in intelligence that they cannot grasp the simplest concepts.

      The word is Fuckwit. That is you. Don’t bother reporting me to Rev. Stu. I am not making random insults. I am just saying what I think of you, based on accepted definitions.

    291. Mike says:


      That wont stop somebody else complaining though. Or even you under a different account which I wouldn’t put past you.

    292. Thepnr says:


      It’d be great if you just answered the question rather than obfuscating again.

      Are the borders of the country Lesotho entirely contained within the borders of another country?

    293. Mike says:

      Tom Busza

      It pertains to the status of Scotland within the UK. Scotland being a Country PROVES that the UK cannot be by definition a Country as well because if it was you would have to cross a national border to leave the UK and enter Scotland and vice versa.

    294. Mike says:


      Now you’re pretending I haven’t answered that question several times already. I refer you to all the previous times above that I have answered that question accurately.
      Accept it or not but don’t pretend and lie that I haven’t answered it that’s just pitiful.

    295. Mike says:

      @Tom Busza

      A Country CAN ONLY BE a territory that is surrounded by its own National border. There is no country anywhere or has ever existed that didn’t wasn’t surrounded by its own National border. Its National border that are used by definition to separate one Country from another. You cannot be within more than 1 Country if you are within defined National borders.

      Tell me Im wrong.

    296. Thepnr says:

      @Tom Busza

      “What the hell has Lesotho, South Africa or anywhere else in this world, have anything to do with Scottish Independence. Arguing about “what is a country” seems so stupid.”

      I completely agree, but “Mike” has been responsible for disrupting threads in the recent past, not just disrupting but being abusive to other posters in doing so and that has resulted in a warning from the moderator of this site.

      This thread is now dead as to arguments about Independence, and there has been a new thread up since just after 11am this morning where the Independence discussion carries on.

      Any discussions on here then are not disrupting the main thread but they do serve a purpose in that we can keep the arguments here and away from there where they would serve no purpose.

    297. Mike says:


      The discussion regarding border and Countries began by defining the relationship of Scotland within the UK it was you who took it off into the direction of Lesotho.
      So if you’re defining that action as disruptive you should be reporting yourself for moderation.

    298. Macart says:


      In the main tbs.

      The ONLY things behind Brexit are greed and/or power I’d say. Each set of Brexiting high heid yins have their own ideology tbf. Their own philosophy. It boils down to my tribe right or wrong. Mainly wrong, but I would say that. 😉 What’s good for me and mine is the whole of the law kinda thing.

      The other stuff? Fear, hatred, xenophobia, othering in general? That’s just part of the go to tool box for these sociopaths in suits. Politics as it is practised. (DON’T get me started – cough)

      Basically they’ve forgotten, (see under – deliberately buried deep in a hole), that governing a population means service to the WHOLE population. Care of the whole population. If you govern, you don’t get to choose or other. You serve all and you reflect the will and the needs of all. A majority might put you in power (which is where the current practice of manufacturing same and manipulating electorates came from), but the day job is to care for all without fear or favour.

      Neither of the current incarnations of the Conservatives or Labour are fit for the job. They need their divisions, their demographics, their triangulated voter bases. They don’t deserve the duty of care for a population. Or in this case populations. They do however deserve the contempt of populations for bringing us to this pass.

    299. Thepnr says:

      Fed up playing with the ball of wool. Scotland is a country, England is a country and the UK is a state.

      Both Scotland and England are countries within that state. The end.

    300. Tom Busza says:

      Thepnr 8.14 pm.

      Point taken. Already on new thread. I will close this thread down and no longer respond. My point has been made. Cheers

    301. Mike says:


      Define the UK state. Is the EU a state?

    302. Mike says:


      Scotland and England are Countries within the EU is the EU a state?

    303. Fairliered says:

      Mike is an arsehole within the body of Wings.

    304. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I feel free to state that the commenter going on about whether or not the EU is a state has got himself into a bit of a state. A future job with the UK state broadcaster would appear to be a state of affairs ideally suited. Could be the presenter of a state of the art programme about statehood. We could then declare a state of emergency – which would seem to be the way the UK state is heading onnyhoo.

      As Tom typed, this page is now dead, the stateless one has assured that state.

    305. yesindyref2 says:

      You’ve been given a chance to prove you’re a waste of space, and you succeeded.

      Well done old chap!

    306. Mike says:


      I got a warning for using that tone of abuse and I was directing it at pig ignorance you’re directing at somebody who’s giving you a much needed education.

    307. Thepnr says:


      You can fuck right off for all your crap arguments haha 🙂

    308. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@9.12 pm

      Yes and he has proven that without a shadow of doubt.

    309. Thepnr says:


      I’ve no idea what you think or why you behave the way you do when posting on Wings. I can only tell you this, in my eyes you are a complete prick. I believe others might think the same.

      Your “arguments” are a fucking joke and when people disagree then you have resorted to abusing that person. Not a good look is it? You didn’t read “How To Win Friends And Influence People” then?

      Well, I can only guess you didn’t. Doesn’t matter now, you are who you are and I’ll tell this you are NOT a supporter of Independence. Nah, you are though an arsehole who should be ignored and that’s what I’ll do from now on.

      So goodbye from me. Mind the door doesn’y hit your arse on the way out.

    310. yesindyref2 says:

      If you had half a brain it’d be lonely.

    311. Mike says:


      You had half a brain you’d be a thief.

    312. Mike says:


      You employ wilful ignorance wilful reality denial abuse bare face lies and wilful provocation and still have the gall to complain.

      You’re beyond being a Prick. Too ignorant to even recognise a lack of self awareness. Clueless worthless and pitiful.

    313. Thepnr says:


      Fucking pathetic.

      Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim’rous beastie,
      O, what a pannic’s in thy breastie!

    314. yesindyref2 says:

      If you had a mirror you’d turn yourself to stone.

    315. geeo says:

      You doing a lot of abusing for someone on their last and only warning, wee mike.

      Tut tut…i suggest you cease and desist for your own well being.

    316. Mike says:


      Well look at you and your single minded blinkered view on abuse. How predictable. Theres lots of abuse on this blog today and the vast majority of it is directed at me for the crime of trying to educate people. Not that you give a shit of course but somebody else might read this as well.

    317. Mike says:


      If you had a mirror you’d wish you could turn yourself to stone.

    318. Mike says:

      Fancy being unable to understand what a Country is. See this is exactly why we need P1 testing.

    319. geeo says:

      Trying to help you wee mike, love how you do not dare being personally abusive to me huh?

      Maybe best you step away from the keyboard.

    320. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      One does not become educated by reading OPINIONS; one becomes educated by assimilating FACTS.

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      See this is exactly why we need P1 testing.

      Something for you to look forward to in a couple of years.

    322. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyways, enough of this hilarity, I’m off for an early zzz.

      Apparently some of us need our beauty sleep.

    323. Cubby says:


      I have reread everyone of your posts over recent days and am happy to say that you were in fact completely correct in everyone of them. You are the brilliant mind that Wings has been waiting for.

      Now if you have a moment please feel free to abuse me. You are very good at that sort of thing as well. Many thanks.

    324. Thepnr says:

      This is for Mike. Hole in my shoe which is a good tune LOL Enjoy

    325. Mike says:


      I think you were put on this Earth to make everybody else feel good about themselves except Thepnr there all hope dies.

    326. Cubby says:


      Please please please abuse me. You are so good at it. Why are you abusing everyone else but me. Give me both barrels – you know you want to .

      PS you are the greatest mind on Wings.

      Many thanks in anticipation.

    327. Petra says:

      @ Maria F and Legerwood ……..

      Thank you very much for the MOST informative posts. You are a REAL asset to this site.

    328. Mike says:


      I couldn’t possibly compete with all the self abuse you’re indulging in.

    329. K1 says:

      Aw come on noo…your the biggest master baiter on here.

      (couldnae help it, open goal 😉 )

    330. Mike says:


      Funnily enough that’s always the view you experience when you’re heads up yer arse.

    331. K1 says:

      Christ you take yersel way too seriously man. So I guess that’s why y’know aboot heads up arses. Ye certainly cannae take a joke that’s for sure.

      Are you gonnae keep checking in on this thread to get the last word in Mike?

      Give up eh, your sense of self importance is astounding, really no self awareness whatsoever.


    332. geeo says:

      I claim the last word on this thread, all shhh…

    333. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      He who laughs last, laughs loudest. (even if nobody can hear him laugh…)

    334. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Hahahaha 🙂

    335. Cubby says:


      I claim the last word on this thread – aw shit I forgot we are the same person aren’t we?

      If we are the same person then who is this Spartacus guy? Is it Mike? Bloody hell starting to post like Cactus. Getting withdrawal symptoms – missing rock.

    336. Mike says:


      No doubt you’ll be checking back to see if I do or not because you’re not a self unaware wee hypocrite at all.

      On a happier note Theresa May seeks further conflict in NI as she looks to cancel the backstop and looks to end the Good Friday agreement. All hail our great leader.
      If this doesn’t make Independence inevitable nothing will.

    337. geeo says:

      Nice try ya wee rascal…but no last word for you…!!

      “Oh yes i will”

      “Oh no you won’t”

      “Oh yes i will”

      Magic mike XXS at the Kings Theater, coming soon !

      Still abusing people mike?

      Be VERY careful now, you are on yer wan an only warning.

      Throwing abuse, then a pretendy pro indy line out after it will not save your ass from the hammers.

    338. Mike says:


      Is Stu aware that his site is infested with under aged posters? I thought your watershed was 0800?

    339. K1 says:

      You’ve gotta laugh at all of us. What a fucking mess we’re in and most of it generated from our total fucking shiteing it because those utter bastards are determined to destroy our country, culture and lives.

      It’s nae wunner we’re aw at each others throats.

    340. geeo says:

      I know stu is well aware of YOU, mike.

      If i recall, he recently shot down your shit pretty firmly.

      “First and FINAL warning” i believe he said.

      I have offered you the option to stop your continued abuse of others, but you seem to STILL insist on insults.

      So, be in no doubt, your very next posting of abuse WILL be reported and you shall be gone from wings, as Stu indicated.

      Wings does not need nor want your abusive crap.

    341. fletch49er says:

      “Theresa May is clinging so tightly around the neck of the UK that she’ll go down in history as the person who choked it to death.”

      I like that!

    342. Mike says:


      Oh look at you with your pseudo indignation and blinkered one eyed view on abuse. Ignoring real abuse while threatening to report non existing abuse.

      How abusive.

    343. Mike says:

      Im starting to believe that Theresa May and many members of the Tory party are actually deep seated foreign operatives. The levels of high treason we’re witnessing points to nothing less.
      Its not too far removed to believe that some foreign power has managed to get their hooks into various members of the UK state and is manipulating them like puppets.
      Its either that or serious mental health problems.

    344. geeo says:

      “My name is mike and i always want the last word..and i will scweem and scweem until i do”.

      “non existing abuse” you claim huh ?

      Hmmm….your post warning samplers.

      “you’re not a self unaware wee hypocrite at all”

      “I couldn’t possibly compete with all the self abuse you’re indulging in”

      “I think you were put on this Earth to make everybody else feel good about themselves except Thepnr there all hope dies”

      “You’re beyond being a Prick. Too ignorant to even recognise a lack of self awareness. Clueless worthless and pitiful”

      Not looking good for someone on a first and final warning.

      Oh dear…!!

    345. Mike says:

      @geeo says

      You complain because I wont abuse you.

      “love how you do not dare being personally abusive to me huh?”

      You Beg me to abuse you.

      “Please please please abuse me. You are so good at it. Why are you abusing everyone else but me. Give me both barrels – you know you want to .”

      Now you want to report me because I haven’t.

      I would genuinely love to see the moderation response to this I truly would.

    346. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would genuinely love to see the moderation response to this I truly would.”

      I hope a ban is what you were after, because it’s what you’ve got. I dislike warnings being ignored here.

    347. geeo says:

      Too funny K1…lol-tastic stuff.

      Not like i didnt warn him…

      I have offered you the option to stop your continued abuse of others, but you seem to STILL insist on insults.

      Still abusing people mike?

      Be VERY careful now, you are on yer wan an only warning.

      Throwing abuse, then a pretendy pro indy line out after it will not save your ass from the hammers.

      Trying to help you wee mike, maybe best you step away from the keyboard.

      You doing a lot of abusing for someone on their last and only warning, wee mike.

      Tut tut…i suggest you cease and desist for your own well being.

      He can’t say he never had fair warning…(smiley face). LoL !!

      Right….now, about that last word….hehe

    348. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      From Wikipedia…

      “The book is a “dictionary of things that there aren’t any words for yet”.[2] Rather than inventing new words, Adams and Lloyd picked a number of existing place-names and assigned interesting meanings to them,[3] meanings that can be regarded as on the verge of social existence and ready to become recognisable entities.[4]

      All the words listed are toponyms and describe common feelings and objects for which there is no current English word. Examples are Shoeburyness (“The vague uncomfortable feeling you get when sitting on a seat that is still warm from somebody else’s bottom”) and Plymouth (“To relate an amusing story to someone without remembering that it was they who told it to you in the first place”). “

      You can consult the book here:-
      Three examples…

      CLACKMANNAN (n.)

      The sound made by knocking over an elephant’s-foot umbrella stand full of walking sticks.
      Hence name for a particular kind of disco drum riff.

      LIFF (n.)

      A book, the contents of which are totally belied by its cover. For instance, any book the dust jacket of which bears the words. ‘This book will change your life’.


      That which has to be cleaned off castle floors in the morning after a bagpipe contest or vampire attack.

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