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A Better Togetherness

Posted on May 15, 2024 by

The National have buried this pretty quickly in understandable embarrassment:

Because some things are just a little TOO on-the-nose for comfort.

Emma Roddick MSP, who holds cherished ambitions of one day becoming a dunce and was until very recently a Scottish Government minister, announced that her vision of Scottish independence was, um, a union with England, Wales and Ireland.

(Strikingly, she didn’t even say NORTHERN Ireland, so we suppose that someone had better go and break the news to Dublin.)

She kept repeating it so that nobody misunderstood. She wanted, she said, to “go back to basics on what independence means”, and asserted that that meant being in a union with England, which she would “personally love”.

Of course, she did specify that the CURRENT union was not acceptable. She appeared to be proposing to the people of England that their 53 million voices should carry no more weight than the 5.3 million of Scotland, the 3 million of Wales or – we presume in reality – the 1.8 million of Northern Ireland.

And, y’know, good luck persuading them of that. But in a miraculous world where you could convince them to give away so much of their power for nothing, what would it be that you were creating? A four-country union in which Scotland was still a minority and could still be outvoted by the other three, for a start.

(And how would you, for example, solve a tiebreak in a case like Brexit, where Scotland and NI voted to stay but England and Wales voted to leave, which is a 2-2 draw? Presumably the “goal difference” would have to be the total numbers of votes, which is what actually happened anyway. So your “independent” Scotland would still be dragged out of Europe against its will.)

But more to the point, what you’d be campaigning for was simply a better version of the UK, and if anyone can explain to us how that’s different to what, say, Gordon Brown wants – and indeed what he and the other Unionist leaders promised in “The Vow”, as demanded by the SNP’s current chief executive, and which he and they both insisted had been delivered – we’re all ears.

We remember the indyref, readers, and we’re pretty sure Gordon Brown wasn’t on the same side as us. But it’s increasingly clear that he’s now on the same side as his old pal Murray Foote’s new SNP, and it’s not because HE’S changed his views.

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  1. 16 05 24 15:56

    Steadying a Sinking Ship | An Independent Scotsman
    Ignored

0 to “A Better Togetherness”

  1. duncanio
    Ignored
    says:

    The latest SNP ‘thinking’ from Emma Shit-for-Brains Roddick.

  2. holymacmoses
    Ignored
    says:

    She never fails to amaze with her ultimate lack of basic understanding of words.

  3. AndyH
    Ignored
    says:

    What the…

  4. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    SNP taking over the mantle of the Party of devolution.
    Makes you wonder that if the graphic in this linked to article were to be updated would it still have so many SNP green ticks…

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-party-of-devolution/

    Tack on this link too for more background info on the stellar mind workings of Roddick.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/dawn-of-the-imbeciles/

  5. Garrion
    Ignored
    says:

    On a par with “let them eat cake” in terms of sheer cognitive dissonance. How does a country that has historically produced such a disproportionate number of great and influential people manage to provide to the body politic complete fkn dunces, or venal self interested rodents? Mebbe 300+ years of cultural and existential colonization?

    Alf?

  6. The Isolator
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh dear.. the lanyard is the giveaway surely. Just park up in this cul de sac and we’ll secure independence within say 30 years.Absolute imposter.

  7. AnneDon
    Ignored
    says:

    This is the culmination of SNP HQ taking over the selection of candidates from the SNP branches. You get to promote people who will never threaten your power.

    The fact they make useless legislators and are incapable of representing the interests of their constituents isn’t important.

  8. Ian McCubbin
    Ignored
    says:

    She must be the lowest in the barrel for carrot dropping to the masses.
    Is she really serious about this. Its let’s create a new union where we are still ripped of by England.
    No thanks full independence only.
    Bye bye Riddock.

  9. ross
    Ignored
    says:

    Look up supranational states on wikipedia. It’s not a hard concept to grasp.

    EU

    The African Union

    Org of Turkic states

    Pacific Alliance

    Benelux

    Carribean Community

    Central American Integration System

    Gulf Cooperation council

    Eurasion economic union

    Arab League

    There are others.

  10. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m sure her Mum loves her, and she probably isn’t a bad person.

    But stupidity is dangerous – that fool Sunak’s rant about Scottish independence supporters being extremists is proof – and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near decision-making bodies which can affect the lives of a nation’s citizens in the most detrimental of ways.

    Unfortunately, for the moment at least, Scotland seems to be represented by nothing but stupid.

    Stupid is the real new King of Scotland’s governing elite, a new King that has asked greed to be its Queen.

    And just like Charlie’s new portrait and the imperial union it represents, the union of stupid and greed doesn’t paint a pretty picture for the Scots.

  11. MaryB
    Ignored
    says:

    Perhaps she’s looking for a move to Labour, hoping to save her seat.

  12. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t think there’s an issue with an independent Scotland being in an agreement along the lines of Schengen with the remainder of the UK, even Ireland. That would maintain our independence and solve a few issues regarding free movement and trade within the British Isles and Ireland.

    A ‘union’ where we’re essentially independent in name only is worthless, and I assume Roddick is thinking she’s trying to pander to soft No voters but the fact is, independence isn’t going to be a major issue in the Westminster election. People have other priorities right now.The Scottish government is announcing a national housing emergency later today and that’s just the tip of an iceberg, though perhaps Swinney can cancel those Green policies and claw back as much of the £200m the Greens got taken out of the housing budget for cycle lanes.

    It’s clear that Sunak’s too scared to call an election & it’s increasingly looking like an autumn election or even a last minute one in January next year. Swinney hasn’t much time to turn things round to convince people who’ve left the SNP to vote for them again, and I don’t think people like Roddick are any help at all.

  13. Marie Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    In the name of the wee man, where the hell do they get these numpties.
    If that is her sincerely held view, I think that she is most definitely in the wrong party. Oh haud oan mibbie naw as the current SNP have morphed into the Labour party.

    Ach well the sooner we get rid of theses eejits the better and hell mend the lot o them.

  14. fran
    Ignored
    says:

    Brain dead Roddick only joined SNP as a way to get elected, first as a councillor, then used her personality disorder to jump to top of the list. Why the fuck Yousaf made her a minister is anyones guess. She talks more about sodding TQ+ identity up here, always wanting her pic taken with rainbows, when the idiot does mention indy, she makes an arse of that too.

  15. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland does not need new powers condescendingly proffered by London it needs the authentic, liberating power of independence, the power to choose its friends, alliances, strategies etc., and make mistakes, without constraint from outsiders.
    The US, the British state and to a singular degree the EU offer little but coercive finger wagging.
    The fingers, as we know, will inevitably morph into an iron fist of neo imperialism.

  16. Cherrybank
    Ignored
    says:

    The NEC replaced members choice of candidates for the List system for the Scottish Parliament by appointed disabled and immigrant candidates.

  17. PacMan
    Ignored
    says:

    As well as for independence, the SNP in the past has marketed itself to the voting public as the Labour of old.

    Now that they have effectively ditched the pretence of supporting independence, maybe their new strategy is to be more Labour than Labour?

  18. Dave Llewellyn
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m not surprised they buried it .
    How we can we be in a union with the UK if we are a partner in it ?
    It should be substituted with “want to be a colony of the Greater England Project”.

  19. Stravaiger
    Ignored
    says:

    I made the mistake of visiting Scot Goes Pop to see what was happening over there, and many/most of the BTL thinking (with some notable exceptions who got pelters) was along the lines of ‘but we have to vote SNP or else the dream of independence is dead’.

    Give

    Me

    STRENGTH!

  20. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    A soft spot for monarchy and retaining «kith&kin» links with England and its interests?
    What does that say?
    I am not one of those terrible separatist nationalists mr Starmer, mr Sunak, mr Schwab…

  21. WhoRattledYourCage
    Ignored
    says:

    Roddickulous.

  22. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Looks like the new treaty of union with Scotland between the Westminster government and the Westminster government administration in Scotland .

    Mmmm WestminsterDoing a deal with ones self,

    Scotland not involved in the package at all.

  23. Sven
    Ignored
    says:

    Adding weight to my speculative theory that Ms Roddick was brought into the administration to make Ms Robison appear almost adequate.

  24. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    “Genius has its limitations, stupidity is not thus encumbered.”

    MI5 has an annual budget of £4 billion. It exists to protect the British state.
    The British Broadcasting Corporation had its charter altered by David Cameron to include promotion of the British state. The portion of its budget that is committed to that purpose is unknowable and inconsequential. Editorial bias comes without a price tag.
    Other British agencies such as Special Branch will be actively engaged in thwarting Scottish independence.
    Then there’s the plethora of think-tanks such as the John Smith Centre and Gordon Brown’s Our Scottish Future. These have undisclosed funding and proven links to the British Security Services.

    And yet, the imbecilic brain farts of Emma Roddick are acceptable parlance within NuSNP.
    The SNP is the Irish Parliamentary Party of the 21st century. Progress can only be made when the SNP shares the fate of the IPP.

  25. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Sounds like labour/ nuSnp version of the new treaty of union with Scotland, only its actually the Westminsters parliament new treaty with its Westminsters administration it sent to Scotland under the Scotland Act,

    Scotland in not involved at all,
    One of those moments that the UK established parties think the Scots will be too Stupid to notice such a flaw in a treaty,

    Well spotted Stu,

  26. Dave M
    Ignored
    says:

    The day Roddick’s intellect rises to that of ‘Idiot’ will be a momentous day indeed. How the hell did she manage to even be nominated as a candidate? I wouldn’t trust her to be able to read the right time from a clock.

  27. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    All ministers whom sit in the Scottish administration from Westminster under the Scotland Act have to swear an Oath to the Crown and Westminster parliament,

    If those people and parties sitting in the Scottish Administration from Westminster now step out of line for “Scottish independence” they would be held accountable for treason to and by the UK government,

  28. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    So if we are all categorically adamant we don’t want to be in “some sort of union or cooperation agreement with the rest of what is currently the UK”, are we all equally and categorically adamant we don’t want to be in “some sort of union or cooperation agreement with the rest of what is currently the EU”?

    That would just be simple and logical consistency. Thus a very easy question to answer.

    I’m thinking that anybody answering “No” or “It’s complicated” should stand in front of a mirror and take a long, hard look at themself.

  29. ronald anderson@gmail.com
    Ignored
    says:

    I,m in Swinney has changed his lapel badge to a Saltire . I change my mind several times a day but my mind is firm on Swinney A useless piece of shite .

  30. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    I doubt that Scottish independence would have ever come through such a rigged Colonial administration, and voting for any of them is a vote for the status quo.

    The problem and obstacle for Scotland is the Westminster parliaments Scottish administration,

    Whereas the Scots people themselves have not sworn an oath of Allegiance to the UK,

    The Scots were not even invited or asked to join the treaty of union, because in all probability “they would have voted No”.

    The Sovereignty of the Scots as a nation was always perceived by England and Scotland as separate issue from any parliament wether that was in 1707 or in present day 2024.

  31. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    YEWKAY is a US maintained aircraft carrier parked off NW Europe.
    Scottish independence would effectively sink it.
    Hence, the pro Nato feed from within and the extremist, threat to Western security etc litany from without.
    It is very likely that Starmer régime would be even more anti than that of Sunak.
    Preserving the territorial integrity of the status quo is, nevertheless, carved in granite in both camps and endorsed by much higher authority too.

  32. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Is she bezzie mates with Dugdale? Dropped by the Smith centre for a latte & a natter?

    Sounds awfully like “What we need in a new Act of Union” Dugdale circa 2015.

    I believe this will be their next move. It wouldn’t have gone away.

  33. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    “She wanted, she said, to “go back to basics on what independence means””

    The basic meaning of national independence for any non self-governing territory is decolonization, according to the UN, and former colonies now independent states. Ms Roddick and other SNP MSPs/MPs, whose understanding clearly remains rudimentary, can read about it here, in simple to understand leaflet version:

    https://salvo-cor.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/THEORETICAL+CASE+FOR+SCOTTISH+INDEPENDENCE.pdf

  34. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode,

    Sunaks rant about Scottish Independence Supporters being extremists,
    I would presume only applies to those whom had sworn an Oath of allegiance to the Crown and Westminster parliament in the Scottish devolved administration they sent to Scotland under the Scotland Act,

    For the rest of Scots have not taken that Oath,

    In actual fact according to Westminster parliament site itself in 2023/2024 they have never asked the Scots to vote or to join the treaty of union,
    That statement by themselves establishes that “both England and Scotland” perceive that the Scots were and are Sovereign and an entirely separate issue and entity from any government or parliament in Scotland wether it was in 1707 or in 2024.
    It also confirms Scotlands peoples Claim of Right, and Sovereignty.
    It is worth the 50% of Scottish people copying it out for future reference,

  35. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “in simple to understand leaflet version”

    Is it simple enough for Ms Roddick and other SNP MSPs/MPs though, Alf? Maybe we should all chip in and produce a colouring-in book for them, too.

  36. Stuart MacKay
    Ignored
    says:

    In normal times, evil would be fought with good. But in times like these, well, it should be fought by another kind of evil.

    – Aereon, The Chronicles of Roddick

    Just send her over to MI5. There won’t be any survivors.

  37. Ian
    Ignored
    says:

    “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”
    ? Albert Einstein

  38. WingsOverFrance
    Ignored
    says:

    I hope nobody falls into the trap of thinking Roddick is merely an outlier because she’s really not. The only people not in on it are SNP voters. Well, some of them. The coup is nearly complete. Thanks Stu.

  39. Karen
    Ignored
    says:

    I’ve never bothered to read “The Vow” until now. Underwhelmed is an understatement.

  40. BLMac
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s monstrous that folk are claiming the SNP are settling for devolution and no longer have the funds they got from us for an independence campaign.

    I trust the SNP. Our independence fund is safely interwoven with their other accounts. They have a RV battlewagon ready for the campaign sitting ready on Mr Sturgeon’s mum’s driveway.

    Oh yes, I’m totally confident that independence is just around the corner, and there’s nothing we Scots would like better than to be in a new arrangement with England so we can continue to benefit from their kind and gentle oversight.

    Woke up folks, have faith and believe that the Earth is flat, the king wears the finest clothes, Pi = 3, XX=XY and ladies have penises.

    I could write more, but I’m off to buy a new umbrella. The shit falling from the pigs flying over is staining my shiny baw heid.

  41. 100%Yes
    Ignored
    says:

    I would presume is was thinking of Sturgeon, Humza and now Swinney. I for one applaud her for her honesty, we knew there was something wrong with the SNP, but what and now we know. Its a pity Sturgeon didn’t tell us this was her vision for Scotland when she became leader of the SNP, so we could have gotten of the SNP gravy train before 2015 election.

    This is what the SNP does, its sends out a minion out to voice an opinion in the Rag and lets see how it goes down, Scots don’t forget about a few years back the Devo-Madmax to be put on the ballot paper to see how it went down, well it went down a strom.

  42. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Roddick personifies what the SNP have become, and its not a party for Scottish independence, a vote for the SNP is vote for the status quo or worse.

    Lets not give the SNP anymore votes they’ve had ten years of doing nothing on the indyfront, instead they’ve wasted millions in taxpayers cash and spent most of their time in office pushing gender polices that the majority of the Scottish public doesn’t want.

    No more votes for the SNP, vote ISP or Alba.

    There’s one tiny sliver of hope and that is Police Scotland arrests and rearrests those involved in Operation Branchform and that the COPFS charges the lot of them, they are forced to resign from the party and any group that supports independence within the party, but have kept their powder dry for a moment such as this, seizes control of the party and puts independence front and centre.

    Its a long shot as long shots go.

  43. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    Those who continue to insist that the SNP remain a viable route to independence exist on a spectrum that runs from clinically naïve through ignorant and uninformed to disingenuous. The naïveté rests on an assumption that the British, Permanent State would stand impartially aside and observe as the institution it exists to conserve is disarticulated by peaceful, democratic means.

    It would not be constructive to personally insult those who hold to this Panglossian perspective, but MI5 alone has an annual budget of £4 billion.

    Universally, the moment of triumph in decolonisation struggle results from a “perfect storm”, the convergence of disparate influences and temporary events.

    The present, Republic of Ireland originated at a point in time where a minor political party (Sinn Féin) allied with a covert insurgent movement (Irish Republican Brotherhood) were able to harness an existential threat to the colonial state (World War One) to blindside both the British Permanent State and its local surrogate (Irish Parliamentary Party).

    Decolonisation of Vietnam and Algeria benefited from the psychological damage rendered the French state by defeat and four years of occupation in WW2 (Morocco and Tunisia were liberated without a fight).

    Similarly, the dissolving of the British Empire post WW2 was at least accelerated by the privations inflicted on the British domestic economy by the Atlantic blockade and the Lüftwaffe bombing campaign.

    The disparate elements of the “perfect storm” can be divided into those that can be internally influenced and those that lie beyond our control. In the case studies briefly touched on, the insurgent parties took advantage of geopolitical events.

    In terms of what can be achieved in the absence of external trauma inflicted on the colonising state, the circumstances which prevailed in 2014 were perhaps fortuitously favourable to the insurgent, Yes movement. The apparatus of the British state (MI5, etc.) were caught off guard by the uprising of a spontaneous, decentralised, grassroots nebula of Yes groups possessing geographical and societal diversity that the bureaucratic, hierarchical and unimaginative arms of the Permanent State were ill equipped to combat.

    The 10% margin of victory for No, incorporating the perfidious Local Government franchise and the now infamously fraudulent, The Vow, was too close for comfort for the British Permanent State.

    The SNP have been incorporated into the fabric of the British state through application of tried and tested tricks. The acronym employed by the Security Services is MICE: Money, Ideology, Compromise & Ego.

    Also for consideration should be COINTELPRO, the manual for infiltrating and neutralising a target, revolutionary entity.

    In any case, the SNP has been rendered an obstacle to its stated prime directive; Scottish independence.

    Humza Yousaf, Jenny Gilruth, Patrick Grady, Angela Crawley, Stewart McDonald and Kate Forbes have been touched by the Machiavellian hand of the covert, American Permanent State.

    Ian Blackford and Angus Robertson as members of the British American Parliamentary Group may also fall into this category (BAPG members are exempt for declaring US State Department gratuities in their HoC Register of Interests).

    Ian Blackford and Pete Wishart vie with one another to become the first SNP MP to take the ermine.

    The Party would be insolvent but for the £1.3m pa it receives in Short money from the British state and the c. £800k pa it extracts in tithes from its elected representatives in Westminster and Holyrood.

    The SNP is as integral to the British state as the Irish Parliamentary Party was before it.

  44. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    Is this “news”?

    We all know the SNP only claims to want Indy when in reality all it wants is for the noses of their elected representatives to be buried in as many troughs as possible, so that the party coffers can swell to a size sufficient to provide a living for the SPADS and the family members and the family friends and the secret lovers who are all in the employ of the SNP.

    The SNP don’t want Indy… the SNP just wants money, and it isn’t too fussy whether it comes via city chambers, Holyrood, Westminster, Brussels or Uncle Tom Cobley and all.

  45. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m not a fan of Flynn. He talks a lot of flynnflam and he’s not interested in Scottish independence.

    However, he did say this (point scoring most likely) in the commons:

    Mr Flynn said: “Let’s be clear, what the Prime Minister did was not just equate my colleagues and I to despotic and dangerous despots across the world, he proactively compared almost half of his Scottish population with a war criminal like Vladimir Putin, and he did so as their Prime Minister – as the man who represents them on the world stage, and the man who on these isles, is tasked with defending their liberties and their democracy.”

    “We know that his sorry time in office is rapidly coming to a conclusion.”

    “Is this really how he wants to be remembered?”

    Regardless of Flynn’s motives he did at least reprimand Sunak on his ill-considered, inflammatory comments.

  46. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    We’re out the EU. And Russia is not our enemy.

    I am a Sovereign Scot my loyalty is to my nation of Scotland.

    Stop the boats. And start the planes.

    Franz Ferdinand moment. Nothing do to with us. I will not fight my Christian Orthodox brothers and sisters. I’ll not be stocking up on canned foods either. Buying flash lights or Geiger counters.

  47. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    We are out the EU.

    Not our problem!

  48. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Alleged attacker apprehended at the scene. Nothing to do with us.

    Switching off channel now. And for a few days.

    Stop the military industrial complex.

    I’m not paying. We all know what for. We all know! The people don’t trust the establishment elite in the West. For good reason.

    Stop the boats. And start the planes. The real war!

  49. Breastplate
    Ignored
    says:

    H McH @ 2:14pm

    No John, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with cooperation between states for mutually beneficial endeavours.

    The dictatorial facet of this Union can be boiled down to ‘What England wants, England gets.
    This has been explained to you on numerous occasions, evidenced by (I believe) a Hansard library report.

    It is impossible for the UK Parliament to prioritise England and Scotland’s needs as they are different and at times, contradictory.

    It is therefore illogical to choose to continue in this relationship from Scotland’s perspective.

  50. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    The Americans of course have flooded Europe with weapons.

    They’ve flooded Europe with weapons.

    Well done Biden. This is all your fault. Isn’t it?

    We say no to war. NO. We will not fight. Send your kids to the front line first!

  51. Young Lochinvar
    Ignored
    says:

    Roddick makes me wonder; is a halfwits head half full or half empty?

    The SNP in its current form will never secure independence because frankly it just doesn’t seem to be really that fashed about it.

    Sturgeon will be remembered as the FM with repeat mandates and repeat open goals courtesy of the Tory Clowns in Westminster and their antics but failed to capitalise on them for the benefit of independence.

    We can all now clearly see her head was elsewhere; heck maybe she and Harvie first met Roddick down the swingers club where their real policies get thrashed (no pun intended) out.

  52. paul
    Ignored
    says:

    Emma is more than welcome to have opinions

    I do not feel obligated to share them

  53. Anthem
    Ignored
    says:

    Seemingly, she plays the fiddle.

  54. Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    Quality post Viv.

    I wonder if such an opportunity might present itself as the US empire destroys itself. Because I think it is coming in my lifetime and I am not exactly young.

  55. Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    Gosh, the Ru$$ian friendly newly elected PM of Slovakia is shot.

    It is funny how it is never the ones sucking on yank cock.

    And people think we would be allowed independence… laughable.

  56. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Now Westminster has more than one parliament in Britain, does that also add another breach to the treaty of union?

  57. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Mac says: 15 May, 2024 at 6:51 pm

    That’s an unfortunate, ahem, “fixation” you have there.

  58. Langlands Rd
    Ignored
    says:

    More power to your keyboard, RevStu!!

  59. Hatuey
    Ignored
    says:

    Vivian, your commentary and analysis today is up there with the best ever on this forum.

    “In the case studies briefly touched on, the insurgent parties took advantage of geopolitical events.”

    I attempted to explain this a few weeks ago and was accused of putting Palestinian rights above the rights of Scots.

    It is clear that the SNP is heading for a sort of Clause 4 moment whereby its foundational commitment to independence is ceremonially abandoned and replaced with a commitment to increased devolution. This makes sense for a party that has lost the support and confidence of its core supporters.

    It also makes sense if you assume channels of communication with the incoming Labour Party and the potential for a deal to be struck.

    As long as everyone is aware that a deal with the Labour Party will come at a price, and that the SNP will most likely sell our right to independence down the river; formally giving up on the goal as a party and doing its best to make independence impossible forever.

  60. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    I am not sure that the SNP ever had the right to fly the independence flag for Scotland whilst it swore an Oath to the Crown and Westminster parliament,

    It appears to be a falsehood and a extended but “propaganda carrot dangling” party,
    As for labour doing a deal with the SNP,
    Labour and the SNP are tories, but with different cards, playing a crooked game of poker with Scotland ,
    The slight of hands is hardly decernible.

  61. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    Jeezo!

    Surely Emma Roddick only exists to show there’s something even less useful in the whole world than a hotel toaster.

  62. John H.
    Ignored
    says:

    I’ve heard it said that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t want candidates standing for election who were brighter than her. Which would explain a lot about where we are today.

  63. pipinghot
    Ignored
    says:

    James Che, they all trotted into there and swore alegence to the crown. Does not matter if it was in English,Gaelic or fucking Swahili it’s an oath to the union.
    Sinn Fein saw it for what it was.

  64. David
    Ignored
    says:

    The lack of talent within our political class is truly amazing/scary

  65. Lorna Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    The Scandi countries once had relationships close to ours in the UK, but managed to break free and are now all independent states in their own right. They co-operate on a wide range of issues of mutual benefit but never compromise their own, or each other’s independence. We could have a similar relationship with out former UK inmates, but not if England was to be the big wheel. Just wouldn’t work. Sweden is the biggest of the Scandi states, although Finland might be the biggest by area, not sure, but Norway is the richest and Denmark the happiest socially, with Iceland n to far behind. Intermarriage is fairly common and their nationals do work in each other’s countries. However, international relations and politics are not something that they swap and deal on, and neither would we. Sorry, Emma, you are speaking through a hole in your nethers.

  66. Bob O'
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s disheartening to see the state of the SNP, with figures like Emma Roddick epitomising the party’s decline in quality. Her track record, marred by dismissals and lacking in both education and work experience, raises serious questions about the party’s selection process. It’s concerning that loyalty, rather than ability, seems to be the primary criterion for candidacy.

    For a cause as crucial as independence, we need skilled negotiators with a proven track record, not inexperienced activists out of their depth in politics. Figures like Siobhan Brown, Jenni Minto, and Kuakab Stewart simply don’t inspire confidence in their ability to lead.

    The absurdities in Holyrood only fuel Westminster’s mockery, with trivialities like pardoning witches and banning woodburning stoves diverting attention from the real issues. It’s clear that the SNP’s priorities have shifted from fighting for independence to securing cushy ministerial positions.

    The complacency among SNP MPs, enjoying lavish lifestyles while neglecting their duty to push for independence, is a bitter pill to swallow. The party seems more interested in self-preservation than in advancing the cause of independence.

    After years of loyal support, it’s disheartening to see the SNP lose sight of its purpose. For many, myself included, the party has lost its way, prioritising personal gain over the greater good. It’s time for change, and the SNP can no longer count on my support.

  67. MaryB
    Ignored
    says:

    Gordon Brown on Channel 4 news, speaking from Fife about child poverty. But no mention of the Scottish Child Payment. Krishnan didn’t ask him about it either. Brown talks as though Scotland doesn’t exist as an entity.

  68. Ian Smith
    Ignored
    says:

    Child payment handouts through government bureaucracy will never end child poverty. We need to get a functional working and contributing society.

    It’s proven to destruction that everything socialism touches turns to shit.

  69. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Smith

    “We need to get a functional working and contributing society.”

    No. What we need is work that pays a real living wage. Not slaves working for nothing while tax dodgers dodge.

    Capitalism strangles the life out of everything to enrich the few.

  70. Andrew scott
    Ignored
    says:

    What checks are there to make sure the £25 child payments goes on children and not on buckie or bookies
    Just askin

  71. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    So England’s PM Rishi Sunak slammed the SNP when they created the position Minister for Independence, no doubt Sunak will be over the moon that Swinney in one of his first acts after his SNP coronation was to do away with the position of Minister for Independence.

  72. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    The English government wants to build a nuclear reactor in Scotland.

    “THE UK Government is considering plans to build a nuclear reactor in Scotland despite fierce opposition.

    Alister Jack told a Westminster committee he has asked ministers at the Department for Energy and Net Zero to plan for a nuclear reactor to be built in Scotland as part of a UK-wide programme.

    A UK Government source told STV News a Scottish nuclear reactor had been “part of our thinking for some time”.

  73. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    You have to laugh at the Tories – a party within a party with a secret club within another club & with all manner of foreign donors, dodgy Dave’s & pig shaggers – points to wee Scotland to scoff at a ministerial position that does have a fcking mandate & is, at the very least, elected AND elected in Scotland – unlike that unelected eejit & his band of mates who Scotland rejects.

    Tell him to GTF!

  74. Garavelli Princip
    Ignored
    says:

    In 1886 (the UK) Parliament passed the first piece of legislation dealing directly with the mental health of its members, the Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Act (long since repealed).

    It laid out the procedure in cases where an MP was ‘received, or committed into, or detained in any asylum, house, or other place as a lunatic’.

    After being informed that an MP was in this position, the Speaker would send two commissioners of lunacy (or the equivalent Irish or Scottish officials) to visit and examine the MP. They would report to the Speaker on whether the MP was ‘of unsound mind’.

    If this was the case, a second examination would be made six months later. If the MP was still deemed to be of unsound mind, his seat would be declared vacant, and a new writ would be issued for a by-election.

    This poor woman has been diagnosed with border-line personality disorder, characterised by (inter alia):

    A strong fear of abandonment; A pattern of unstable, intense relationships; shifting goals and values; periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality; Impulsive and risky behaviour, or sabotaging success by suddenly quitting a good job; and loss of contact with reality; psychotic episodes.

    There is little doubt that individuals suffering from the above would have fallen under the terms of the Lunacy (vacating seats) Act. There is also little doubt that the utterance complained of (above) displays many of the characteristics of the disorder attributed to this poor woman.

    These are more enlightened times, and brutal dismissal of the mentally ill is not acceptable.

    But it is fair to question the wisdom of submitting a sufferer of this disorder to a role that would inevitably create the stresses that would exacerbate this condition. We can see the results.

    Was it fair to her? is it fair to her constituents? Is it fair to those who thought they were voting for independence?

    On the other hand, Ms Roddick has done us all a favour by starkly revealing the underlying assumptions, thoughts and attitudes towards independence of NuSNP.

    We already knew this, but such clear guileless confirmation by an ingenue is refreshing and useful.

  75. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    FFS! Do all Wokists have shit for brains? Or are they all just Yoons? Or both?

  76. Anthem
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri @10.10pm
    Exactly!

  77. Kcor
    Ignored
    says:

    WingsOverFrance
    15 May, 2024 at 3:13 pm

    “The coup is nearly complete.”

    Not nearly, the betrayal by the SNP is fully complete.

    There is not a single SNP MSP or MP who can dare to speak out against the No independence policy of the SNP.

    The likes of Cherry and Forbes are the lowest of the low IMHO.

    Still the gullible independence supporters who will vote for the SNP don’t get it.

    No country in the world has pro rata as many people as stupid as the people of Scotland.

  78. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri
    Ignored says:
    15 May, 2024 at 10:10 pm
    Ian Smith

    “We need to get a functional working and contributing society.”

    No. What we need is work that pays a real living wage. Not slaves working for nothing while tax dodgers dodge.

    Capitalism strangles the life out of everything to enrich the few.

    There’s a saying, when playing Monopoly, if nobody builds houses / hotels, nobody loses and everybody gets richer.

    Neoliberalism is not about a better life for everybody, it’s about harvesting the wealth of ordinary people to create obscene wealth for the greedy few.

    Thing is, once you begin to think about it, it has a lot on common with the Treaty of Union; not just the plunder and intrinsic exploitation, but the vital necessity / dependence upon profound indoctrination of those to be harvested.

    Auld Scots Law was rooted in the common good philosophy, and declared it illegal to profit from somebody’s misfortune. Just imagine how many corporate bodies, insatiable shareholders and greedy utility companies would be in the dock if that was still the case. All these fkrs profiteering from Air BnB short term lets while new wannabe families can’t get a basic place to live; – and literally fleeced of their wages if they can.

    The system is BROKEN.

    Here, today, Scotland has just declared a housing emergency, which will likely see the very same profiteering housing developers / financiers who maintain extortionate house prices by orchestrating artificially high demand and under supply, given licence to tear up more of our countryside, and make obscene profits derived from a housing strategy which extorts the maximum amount of money out for the absolute minimum of money in.

    Big bucks for the developers and mortgage brokers who created this mess, but more trash-built, overvalued wooden sheds for people to live in, and spend their entire lives paying for.

    The whole system is a racket from cover to cover. Most people know it’s a racket too, yet where, anywhere, do you see criticism of the rotten illusion? Where, anywhere, do people have a choice?

    How I ache to witness a new era of Scottish Enlightenment which again, has the common good at the heart of it, yet “somehow” we get served up thunder-dunces like Roddick, Swinney, Sturgeon and all the other flops in our Vichy Holyrood.

    We urgently need rid of these brainless bastards, prioritising My-Little-Pony politics over defending Scotland’s rights and interests as a Nation, while the odious Westminster “decides” we are generous allies to the genocidal murderers in Tel Aviv. It’s sickening. It’s criminal.

    With Auld Scots Law back in command it actually would be criminal.

  79. Robert Louis
    Ignored
    says:

    Given that this chump from the SNP has stated this all publicly, it is likely their are many now in the SNP hierarchy who concur. The SNP really, really have lost their way, openly talking of ‘enhanced devolution’. The SNP really are an obstacle to independence now.

    The SNP, the devolution party.

  80. Peter A Bell
    Ignored
    says:

    Speaking at Nigg Energy Park in July 2013, Alex Salmond referred to the six unions which bind Scotland to the rest of the UK – the EU, a currency union, the Union of the Crowns, a defence union through membership of Nato, a social union among the people of the four nations and the political. Of these, he identified the political union (the Union) as the one which was a serious problem for Scotland.

    He said,

    “The political union does not work for Scotland any more. It holds Scotland back and imperils our future. It will not bend and it will not change of its own accord. So we will, we must, change it.

    “We must address and fundamentally change the political and economic union as a matter of urgency. This political union is only one of six unions that govern our lives today in Scotland, and the case for independence is fundamentally a democratic one.

    “A vote for independence next year will address the democratic deficit which sees policies like the punitive bedroom tax, the renewal of Trident or Royal Mail privatisation imposed on Scotland against the wishes of Scotland’s democratically elected representatives.

    “But that will still leave five other unions intact. We will embrace those other unions while using the powers of independence to renew and improve them.”

    Viewed in the context of the time when it was made, it is a perfectly reasonable perspective. Maybe a bit too ‘reasonable’ for some. But bear in mind that Salmond was seeking to counter a relentless British propaganda campaign portraying Scotland’s independence as the total estrangement of the nation and its people. If the Better Together mob were to be believed, independent Scotland would resemble North Korea. But not nearly as welcoming.

    Two thoughts struck me as I read Emma Roddick’s ‘thinking’ on the constitutional issue. The first was how much better Alex Salmond was at untangling the political union from the others and making it the villain of the piece. The second was how differently broadly similar ideas were received now as compared with eleven years ago.

    Alex Salmond’s ‘six unions’ speech in 2013 prompted considerable discussion. But not, as I recall, serious controversy. Obviously, republicans and the anti-NATO / anti-EU contingent(s) were not pleased. Likewise, the currency obsessives. But, on the whole, the Yes movement understood why he said what he did and didn’t get too worked up about it.

    The fact that Emma Roddick’s remarks along similar lines has provoked so much hostility speaks to the way general perceptions of the constitutional issue have changed in the intervening decade and more. This hostility is not, I think, wholly explaind by the clumsiness with which she expressed her views. Certainly, no allowances are now being made for and perceived need to calm fears of Scotland becoming and isolated pariah state, with razor-wire and guard-towers all along the border.

    Even to hint at any kind of continuing formal union with rump-UK is enough to loose a torrent of angry objection.

    With the usual caveats regarding generalisation, in 2013 we supposed that an amicable (to some degree) divorce from the UK was possible. Who outside SNP leadership still believes this now? Even within The Clique, who genuinely believes it?

    Alex Salmond’s speech was, for the most part, received as the leader of the independence movement playing the political game within the context of the referendum campaign and the fight to restore Scotland’s independence. Emma Roddick’s remarks are immediately seized upon as the voice of those who have failed Scotland’s cause preparing the ground for further betrayal.

    The entire tenor of discourse on the constitutional issue has changed dramatically since 2013. But you wouldn’t think so listening to John Swinney or his colleagues. Their whole demeanour suggests that they haven’t had a single fresh thought since maybe 2011. They really are clueless.

  81. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    «BUT THAT WILL STILL LEAVE FIVE OTHER UNIONS ( the EU, a currency union, the Union of the Crowns, a defence union through membership of Nato, a social union among the people of the four nations) intact.
    We will embrace those other unions, while using the powers of independence to renew and improve them»
    Alex SALMOND.

    Essentially the same half cooked, squirming outlook as RODDICK.
    An iScotland would still be very BRITISH in character and carry its historic baggage.
    Mr SALMOND will have had time since 2013, in the light of events, to reconsider the wisdom of those UNIONS.

  82. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    TURABDIN

    Maybe cause the others would’ve been on an equal footing (& a veto) as an independent nation.

    I agree with you tho. Times have since changed. NATO has its own unelected eejits & political system that serves only one countries interests, the USA. & the EU has gone to the dogs because of its reliance on it.

    The union of crowns would’ve been put to a ref & the free movement (common travel area) would be an agreement with Republic of Ireland the same as the UK currently has.

    Ridiculous Roddick seems to be suggesting an improved, non binary, neither one thing or the other, everything remains the same (tho yer locked in this time) Act of Union. She can jog on & keep jogging..

    These roasters were elected for independence. Not to make shit up as they go along. She’s obviously drew the short straw to go test feedback.

    Here’s mine: GTF, ya eejits ..

  83. scottydog
    Ignored
    says:

    Everyone that wants independence doesn’t necessarily want the same thing. The SNP’s proposals or Alba’s does not carry a majority. This is the debate we should be having! Why can’t the UK be a union of equals? Why can’t England, Scotland and the RUK have its own independent governments. The UK could be set up like Europe and I think the majority across the UK would want that. Someone needs to start making the case because having a hard border with RUK doesn’t make economic sense. Like Norway, Scotland could then also join the EEA.
    Independence needs a rethink!

  84. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    I can’t see the point in talking about what iScotland might do vis a vis membership of the various different Unions at this point in time.

    All that will depend on what the electorate of an iScotland want.

    This whole debate vis a vis independence is stuck in 2011.

    This is most evident in the contributions made by Unionists on this forum. They keep asking the same questions which were answered way back in 2011.

    If I were looking to sell Independence I would name all these various Unions and emphasis the fact that an Independent Scotland would be free to leave all these Unions without asking for their permission whereas that is not the case with the British Union.

    My campaign for independence would be very simple.

    I would ask ‘Should Scotland be an Independent country or a British colony?

    The topic of Scotland being a British colony is new or at least I don’t remember it being discussed between 2011 – 2014.

    You want to be part of a Union be it the EU, Nato or whatever should the people of Scotland decide or should that be left to the English electorate to decide on our behalf.

  85. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Peter A Bell @ 7:42 am

    “The entire tenor of discourse on the constitutional issue has changed dramatically since 2013. But you wouldn’t think so listening to John Swinney or his colleagues. Their whole demeanour suggests that they haven’t had a single fresh thought since maybe 2011. They really are clueless.”

    Insightful analysis, Peter.

    By their deceit, the SNP elite has put themselves in a kind of ‘revolutionary’ limbo, or perhaps ‘bunker’ is an apt term; meantime the people see through them and have moved on to the next stage of decolonization, in their minds as much as anything else. We are starting to smell freedom, ‘the fear of the oppressor’.

    Instead of declaring independence, as the SNP should have done, with its nationalist majorities, the dominant national party has ‘opted for neutrality’ (Fanon), and hence for a co-operation with the colonial regime. It has decided to become what is known in postcolonial theory as part of ‘the legal tendency’ in what is a contested territory.

    This ‘legal tendency’ serves as a major impediment to independence whilst the imperial power, its imperial parliament and its imperial laws and agencies regard independence as unlawful; which implies that the SNP is now effectively one of the main barriers to independence.

  86. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    There was no union of the crowns all that happened was a Scottish king took the throne of England, the Scottish crown and the English crown are utterly incompatible, in England the monarch is sovereign in Scotland its the people.

    England’s current king did not swear to uphold the Scottish Claim of Right, (If he did England wouldn’t be able to rob Scotland blind) so he is not the king of Scots. There is a English Crown Office and a Scottish Crown Office, both are separate, there is no British Crown Office.

  87. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Peter A Bell
    Ignored
    says:

    Their whole demeanour suggests that they haven’t had a single fresh thought since maybe 2011. They really are clueless.

    They’ve had a couple of fresh thoughts

    1. Independence would be bad for their bank balances

    2. Women have penises.

    No 2 is a dream come true for ‘Better Together’ They are now trying to con people into thinking it’s only Independence supporters who believe this. Anas Sarwar is now claiming that women have vaginas and not penises. Although I think he’s till happy for women to have penises if they self-id.

    Unionists are claiming the people of Scotland are too crazy to be able to govern their country look at the state of the SNP and their crazy ideas about women having penises etc. etc.

    How racist can you get?

    They seem to forget about the GRA 2004 which is a UK law which states people can change sex.

  88. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    I sincerely trust for Scotland’s sake this version of «togetherness» https://www.thenational.scot/politics/24323272.must-support-ukraine-georgias-desire-european-identity/
    is not the official view in Bute House.
    We know there are many willing NATO/EU glove puppets in the neighbourhood their influence augurs ill.
    The EU was in origin conceived as a third force between US/Nato & Soviet expansionism not as a rubber stamp for American global and hemispheric aims which it has now truly become.
    Independence means deciding what is in the national interest. Jumping from one constricting union into a set of others, a potentially dangerous set, is its antithesis.
    The Caucasus is no place for self righteous amateurs any more than those other current «hotspots»

  89. Ruby Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    scottydog
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 9:14 am

    Someone needs to start making the case because having a hard border with RUK doesn’t make economic sense

    Hard border with the RUK has been done to death already. See debate between 2011 – 2014

    No point suggesting the UK should be anything other than it is. England is more than happy with the current set-up.

    They want us to stay!

  90. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Haud the bus we’re aw saved and independence is secured, our beloved coronated SNP FM Swinney has removed his SNP lapel badge and replaced d it with a Saltire badge.

    An SNP insider said that Swinney wants to be more inclusive and that’s why he’s changed his lapel badge, Swinney can go a take flying f*&%.

  91. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “Why can’t the UK be a union of equals?”

    Because England has no equal.

    England is the Alpha and Omega of the British Empire.

    England’s arrogance, ‘superiority’ and sense of entitlement will never allow it to view the Treaty of Union as a partnership between equals – not ever.

    The ToU is no more than a contract of employment given to a servant in England’s eyes.

    “Let us discuss how the union between our two great nations might benefit both equally.” said Scotland.

    “Treat the help as our equal? What a ridiculous notion – our Scottish servant appears to be in need of a good beating. ” replied England.

    The Union is dead in the minds of the Scots; drowned to death in a 300 year-old lake of English pish. The Scots now only wait for its corpse to bob to the surface – just to make sure it’s really deid.

  92. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    There are some frightening connections between the tactics of previous governments and the ones we are seeing evolve today,
    Circles of organised hatred and rhetoric are becoming common place in todays government in Britain,
    Comments like Separists and Extremists or even independence supporters stirs up that hatred to create a situation for governments to justify there next moves in legislation,

    ” Genocide never just happens, There is always a set of Circumstances which is created to build a climate in which extermination can take place usually through government propaganda, persecution and legislation”.

    If you swap the Jewish name tags of “Sara” or ” Isreal” given by germans to jews in the 1930s for the name tags “Extremists”, “Separatists” or ” independent supporters” to separate the idea of the nation of Scotlands behaviour – from that of the rest of Britain behaviour as they did with the jews in Germany, with propaganda and persecution,and later through legislation.

    The connotations and practices of the British governments legislation over Scotland and rhetoric such as Rushi Sunaks Speech builds the climate for Scots to be ostracised and down graded in the same prepared and planned manner that Jews were in the 1930s,

    The Circles of organised hate has long been propergated within the UK government towards Scotland,
    And the hatred is becoming publically more in the open in this decade with Boris Johnsons copy publishing of a racist poem to Rushi Sunaks comments to create a climate for legislation,
    The Third Reich governance has moved to Britain,
    All we need now is for that government to issue ID cards with a big “S” on them instead of “J”.

  93. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    The words facile and patronizing occur in this article https://archive.ph/jRxXi as does independence.
    Plainly, interpretation depends on perspective.
    Old imperialist habits, albeit refashioned into notions of protection from the tyranny of the «other», still persist under the humanitarian veil.

  94. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Breeks

    Aye, housing is becoming ever more of a joke for many with the extortionate cost of building land and then the dubious quality of homes being built on said land.
    Eva touches on this point, and also mentions the resultant symptoms of folk that struggle to get by and how it affects our society.

    https://oneleggedwomanspeaks.uk/2024/05/15/three-little-pigs/

    Due to hellish winter weather and ever more useless bus services in my locale, for the past 6 months I have been assisting an addict so they could get to their daily appointments and get their shopping.
    This has given them some structure and social contact in their life which has been very beneficial and stopped them getting drawn into more harmful stuff.
    On occasion we stop the car on the journey home and do a quick roadside litter pick or other task like clearing road gullies to drain the flooded roads.
    It has progressed their recovery to the point they have passed drug tests showing they have not been abusing other substances, and have now been moved to a bi-weekly dispensing program rather than daily.
    It’s little steps and we’ll just have to see if further progression can be made. There is the looming stress of life upheaval for them in the not to distant future due to potentially losing their current housing.
    In the many different conversation we have had, housing is a prominent discussion point. They would be very happy to live in a converted container house. Before anyone gets too dismissive of the idea go and look at some of the container houses and tell me they don’t look great.

  95. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Correction. Not bi-weekly, meant to say twice a week.

  96. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    New legislation for Scotland?

    Alister Jack, conservative and unionist party, Secretary of State for Scotland has already suggested that the House of Lords has a committee for looking at Scotlands laws.

    Regardless of what they are connected to, Westminster keeps changing and repealing “Scots law” as if it was not part of the agreement of the treaty of union.

  97. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    American imperialism is the spawn of the British variety. WWI may be considered the moment of that spawning. Soon after the British imperium went into rapid decline.
    However, the old supremacist bad habits, including the maudlin sentimentality connected with anglosaxon notions of freedom, were passed on.
    The USA stands at the threshold of its own decline. Will it take a WWIII to trigger the moment?
    Scots, nominal nationalists, might pause to ponder why they should engage in that historic moment.
    Independence is a word with seemingly a wide lexical field of interpretations.

  98. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Dan,

    I always look at the Tiny homes videos on youtube, and the include container builds, although iI like the more wooden builds myself,

    I would down size in a flash if I had a decent garden to go to, not one of those crappie postage stamp sized gardens where one sneeze and you bash your head on the wall ,
    A garden is hard work but very therapeutic.
    Still growing our own veg and fruit for the table, as well as keeping fit,
    I would not give that up for all the world, it has been my refuge and peace from all medical issues and madness of DWP, and the large assortment of appointments.

    except I bet my new short assured tenancy agreement on a tiny home , would not be so favourable as my old 1988 one,
    And I would be dumped in a strange town or high rise flat, at government departments convenience,
    This is all down to maladministration and bad policies and inhumane tactics of corporations,

    But with the right programme of fairness and equal exchange on tenancy agreements along with a garden I would give up my three bedroomed house for a tiny one bedroomed house, which I always liked even as a youngster,
    We have always lived in big houses from old three story inns, old mill houses to church houses, the cosiness of a smaller house always appealed,

  99. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “We are starting to smell freedom, ‘the fear of the oppressor’ ”

    Aye, Alf. There’s no doubt the anti-Scots rhetoric coming out of England and from supporters of the ‘Union’ is beginning to ramp up. A typical sign of fear in a bully in my experiences growing up in rough and tough industrial Glasgow.

    I’ve always thought of the political posturing from both sides of the independence argument as the contestants squaring up and jabbing fingers at each other before the ‘real fight’ kicks off.

    Some might know of a poem called ‘Thinking’ written by Walter D. Wintle.

    This is my version of Wintle’s poem. Given as a wee pep talk for the ‘real fight’ that is fast approaching – if it isn’t already upon us:

    If we think we are beaten, we are;
    If we think we dare not, we don’t.
    If we’d like to win, but we think we can’t,
    It is almost certain we won’t.

    If we think we’ll lose, we’ve lost;
    For out in this world we find
    Success begins with a people’s will
    It’s all in our state of mind.

    If we think we’re outclassed, we are;
    We’ve got to think high to rise.
    We’ve got to be sure of ourselves before
    We can ever win the prize.

    Life’s battles don’t always go
    To the stronger or faster clan;
    But sooner or later a people who win
    Are a people who think they can!

    Everything achieved by humankind in the entire history of humankind was preceded by thought.

    Thinking comes first and the manifestation of those thoughts in what we call reality follows on behind. Cars and washing machines and all the rest of it don’t just pop into existence without first being thought of.

    So get to thinking that Scotland’s liberation is inevitable – we’re just waiting for it to manifest in our reality.

  100. Chas
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe if there was some signs of competence from our current Government then the electorate might form the collective opinion that Scotland could run it’s own affairs.

    Until that happens the majority of the electorate simply do not want Independence for fear of what would follow.

    The 0.5% of the electorate, I am being extremely generous, who post on here every day, on their pet subjects of ancient history, colonialism, claim of rights, sovereignty, MI5 etc are not in tune with the vast majority of Scots. However our brave posters simply cannot or are unwilling to accept that they are in the minority and produce the same bilge every day. ‘It’s jist no fair’ is the war cry.

    I suppose it keeps them off the streets and away from innocent weans.

  101. stuart mctavish
    Ignored
    says:

    If they’re genuinely serious about scrapping the defacto ref and becoming full time Devo administrators, they probably need to get a better handle on the dodgy deals that benefit England at most Scots expense

    eg setting aside any technical argument in favour of new nuclear, if the new plant(s) is intended mainly to feed power back to England, the budget for planning should be counted as an English expense (and not part of Alister Jack/ SOC Scotland brief in ANY event).

    Ditto the build cost – a fully functioning indy Scotland could once have been expected to procure European Pressure Reactors for similar price (and net benefit) as the Luxembourg based UPM subsidiary managed to acquire for Finland (about €2 billion) and not be tied into €40 billion PFI type contracts the English would happily sign us up to..

    One bright side for all that, assuming the inflated price gets counted correctly as an English expense, is that the Barnet consequential could be enough to squirrel away a couple of secret ones for ourselves – and prepare for the future accordingly.
    🙂

    O/T shout out for Alf Baird who sounded great on radio this morning, I was thinking the Freeports can’t exclude local licensing & taxation so huge point in favour of the l(o?)ng big ship building strategy might be an import terminal in western Freeport and export terminal on the eastern one to profit from the European market over next 30 years or so.

    Fully sold on the catamaran stuff otherwise (assuming accepting extra money to give crew first class accomodation can be agreed) though, and sometimes wonder what on earth can be stopping SG from opening (/subsidising the opening of) another yard on Clyde in order to get cracking ..

  102. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    “There’s no doubt the anti-Scots rhetoric coming out of England and from supporters of the ‘Union’ is beginning to ramp up.”

    All part of the grand plan to allow the rancid SNP to don its cloak of blue and white, lift its cardboard claymore skywards, and cry “Sons and daughters of Scotland, we need your votes!”

    The electorate will then be driven cattle fashion to the polling stations and the same tired old SNP trope of “Scotland needs independence…just not yet.” will be regurgitated for another five years.

    Scotland needs a political enema.

  103. aLurker
    Ignored
    says:

    stuart mctavish
    says:
    O/T shout out for Alf Baird who sounded great on radio this morning

    If you post the link then the rest of us will be able to listen.
    If you don’t have the link then at least if you say which radio station, which show/presenter and an approximate time then others who may go to the effort of searching for it may have a clue where to start.

    😉

  104. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode.

    A beautiful poem at a appropiate time,
    Thank you for posting it, I read it out to my Spouse.

  105. Stevie
    Ignored
    says:

    When is an independence party not an independence party : when it’s SNP.

    An embarrassing hodge podge of mealy mouthed mumblings does not impress voters – either stand for something and stand up for it or fk off.

  106. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:


    Dan
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 10:30 am

    …. Before anyone gets too dismissive of the idea go and look at some of the container houses and tell me they don’t look great.

    The crap / blight of modern housing isn’t great, but all I see is (pardon the expression), Jerry built “emergency housing”, essentially the same as the disaster relief housing thrown up quickly after some natural disaster or devastation from war.

    Get it thrown up quickly, cheaply, and adequate provision to contain the crisis as a stopgap until the “proper” housing can be built as part of the wider recovery.

    Where it goes bananas is the inflated cost of this “throwaway” ephemeral style housing, and people expecting these shells to endure like more conventional bricks and mortar.

    This last bit is where the racket really kicks in; crap that’s marketed at a premium rate, as luxurious investments, but built with cheap, production line banality, with predominantly unskilled labour.

    Like I said, that’s ok when desperate people need shelter and a roof over their heads in a hurry, but such conditions should NOT be the everyday norm, nevermind the top end of the market.

    What also needs looked at is the capacity for people to help themselves build their own dwellings. Maybe even having development zones where there can be big relaxations on standards, just to get somewhere to live and have an address, and take a lot of heat out the crisis.

    I have a notion in my head that supposing some Native American wanted to live his life enjoying his cultural traditions, such as living in a Teepee just for an example, then he should be allowed to, shouldn’t he?

    So what about a Scot? If I wanted to live in a traditional Blackhouse or 19th Century cottage, just like my ancestors, then why should I be prevented from doing so as my personal choice? Allow the “little people” an opt-out from the great property swindle.

  107. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ James Che

    Aye, a smaller property is just so much easier to live in for numerous reasons. EG. Cost buy, cost to heat, effort to clean, maintenance upkeep to name but a few.
    Reduced costs and effort to keep maintained also frees up time to do other more enjoyable or fulfilling and valued life stuff.

    I had planning permission for a 3 / 4 bedroom house on a plot and the norm was to have 3 toilets on a property that size. But I’ve got better things to do with my life than pay for 3 toilets I won’t need and keep all those rooms clean, so didn’t bother with the build and just kept the muckle garden instead to grow my veg and hoard all manner of junk that I use to fix and build stuff for myself and my neighbours. No need for a TV when nearly everyday is like an episode of Scrapheap Challenge sorting neighbours’ busted lawnmowers and the like!
    Good to hear you’re still managing to put a regular shift into your own garden with all the other life stuff you have going on.
    Past few weeks the weather and temps have improved so busy getting everything planted out now. My tomato plants look good this year and are already bigger than the ones in the village oldtimers’ greenhouses. My tom plants, like all my other seedlings are potted in compost generated from my wormery.
    Still munching my way through various jams, chutneys and pickled beetroot I made last year so that also keeps food costs down.
    I do buy oats though, at least until our mental “government” ban them… #OatClub

  108. The Flying Iron of Doom
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks says:
    16 May, 2024 at 2:00 am

    There’s a saying, when playing Monopoly, if nobody builds houses / hotels, nobody loses and everybody gets richer.

    I don’t get it – how does that work assuming that you haven’t dispensed with the rule which allows the banker to create further wealth ex nihilo simply by writing £20 or whatever on scraps of paper and then using those in the game? 😕

  109. Casper1066
    Ignored
    says:

    She is like these people who think Scotland was invented in 1707.

  110. stuart mctavish
    Ignored
    says:

    Lurker @11:51

    Here ye go, at about 2hours 41 minute mark (can’t add the time stamp & not sure if it’s a permanent link*, Sorry)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001z55c

    * On plus side there’s (currently) none of that “due to broadcasting rights” we’re no letting you hear the football, that I admit to getting on occasion.

  111. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Breeks

    We know conventional modern built housing is shite and just an extortion racket.
    And that there is now a housing emergency kind of hints that the conventional modern house building system isn’t fit for purpose…
    My point about a dwelling built out of shipping containers is that it is a viable alternative for some to the crap current system.
    Shipping containers are robust units of standard sizes and this means they are easy to convert and build modular units with.

    There aren’t enough folk with the skills or motivation to build proper traditional Scottish stone built housing anymore, and even if there were, the material and labour costs you’d need to pay someone to build a house would be sky high. I’m doing my own stonework with lime mortar, and my own Scottish slate work for exactly that reason.
    I’m all for relaxed planning regs to open the way for other more affordable housing options. The current straitjacket of rules and regs is a joke. Like telling everyone we all need to reduce our energy usage to save the planet when they won’t even allow us to fit double glazing in some properties…

  112. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    – this one is interesting; the kanaks are rioting because the french are being allowed to vote after 10 years residence
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/15/new-caledonia-protests-law-constitution-changes

    when you get your stuff back (on loan)
    https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/articles/c97zpy84j7yo

    – when do we get ours back?

  113. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    That BBC news Pidgin service can’t be for real? I’m confused!

  114. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    @Confused: interesting article about the situation in New Caledonia. Colonists gotta colonise, innit?

    Hope this archived version works to reduce clicks for the MSM:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20240516123502/https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/15/new-caledonia-protests-law-constitution-changes

  115. James
    Ignored
    says:

    “the kanaks are rioting because the french are being allowed to vote after 10 years residence”

    Better not tell Franchise Fanny….

  116. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    I thought the pidgin service was some racist-trolling/chris-morris satire, but it appears to be legit.

    – lot’s of good things on it; the nigerians, despite being big oil producers, lack refining capacity and have currency problems. Now they are going to use their own pension fund to shore up their economy. When you see these parallels, you realise, as far as colonial/neo-colonial/neoliberalism, goes, we are all in the same boat.

    Ghana and Uganda have also been feeling the heat about the LGTBQ+ agenda – but have shown a lot of balls in fighting it.

    Niger, just told the yanks to fuck off out of their country; the us ambassador was coming round and telling their prez who he could and not talk to (business deals with china), so he told her to sling it.

    The kanaks : the “10 year residence” rule for the kanaks is an expansion of the franchise, while for us it would be a restriction, which is often hysterically argued here, by the little englanders.

    – the kanaks know the new rules are designed to destroy their independence movement forever, and they are not going to take it. While we await our census results and some highland games have the feel of a home counties gymkhana.

  117. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    yeah, pidgin, forgot to add, it can be really really funny in “diverse ways”-

    witch doctors in ghana have been making peoples cocks disappear

    https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/articles/cglk735rm9eo

    stonewall and mermaids are monitoring the situation carefully; could be a lot cheaper than western style transitioning surgery, though the witch doctors typical fee – the liver of an albino – quite hard to source.

  118. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    With the SNP and the LA and a few Judges in Scotland wanting to bang up more folk via juryless trials, it would appear that the prisons in Scotland are bursting at the seams, and cons serving under four years jail time will probably be let out due to many prisoners in the system.

    The immediate increase in prisoners that’s burst the system wide open is more than likely down to the draconian and very unjust Hate Crime Laws that were forced upon Scots by MSPs without our input.

    “Criminals serving sentences under four years could be released from prison due to a “critical” rise in people behind bars.

    SNP Justice Secretary Angela Constance said the threshold for “emergency release” had been reached, but said sex offenders would not qualify.

    In a statement at Holyrood, Constance informed MSPs that the prison population had risen from 7,948 to 8,348.

    She said the immediate cause of the 400 increase was unclear, but said a “critical risk” was now posed to the bursting prison estate.

    She said the rise was curbing the Scottish Prison Service’s ability to deliver rehabilitative schemes and making prison visits difficult.

    One response will be activating the Ministerial power of releasing prisoners in emergency situations.”

  119. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    https://kennymacaskillmp.scot/whos-environment-and-whos-economic-benefit-16-may-2024

    I like that Kenny keeps pushing the discussion on energy. However I sometimes think he lacks a bit of wider consideration on potential ways forward.
    For instance, this notion that we currently produce more than we need wouldn’t necessarily be the case if the ever growing abundance of leccy created by renewables in Scotland’s geographic area was put to better use here.
    A lot of fossil fuel derived energy is still being used to heat our water and homes through the use of heating oil and gas. So why not promote initiatives that make use of the surplus of energy produced by renewable sources, and taper off the use of fossil fuels.
    What is the point of the greenwashing activity of fitting all these solar PV arrays and ASHPs when there is already a robust and discreet delivery system through our existing leccy grid infrastructure capable of providing cleaner energy to nearly every property connected to the grid in Scotland.
    It’s like nobody considers the significant additional amounts of energy used in the industrial manufacturing processes, import shipping, and installation of all these “planet saving” kits that will do well to last 10 years without failure.

    Get better control over the pricing of energy, insulate properties so they are more thermally efficient to reduce energy demands, heat them with leccy produced by renewables through the existing grid.
    Stop being distracted by pie in the sky tech shite.

  120. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    Ashcroft poll, field work 9 – 13 May. Westminster voting intention, Scottish sub-sample (477) half population of regular, full poll. (Change from 2019 GE)
    Con 13% seats 7 (+1)
    Lab 29% seats 31 (+30)
    LibDem 13% seats 5 (+3)
    SNP 24% seats 14 (-34)
    Green 13%
    RefUK 7%

  121. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    So the millionaire knight of the realm and leader of the Labour party and avid g_e_n-oci-de supporter Sir Keir Starmer has pledged to eradicate child poverty in the UK but he’s said he won’t scrap the two-child benefit cap.

    Does anyone actually believe a word this lying b*stards says anymore.

  122. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    Since we’re discussing the voting franchise in New Caledonia, ?just five sleeps ‘till the release of the next tranche of 2022 census data. This will include “Ethnic group, national identity, language and religion”. With current polls indicating an appropriate 4% margin of victory for No, this data should allow us to make an assessment of how things stand with autochthonous Scots.

  123. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Chas
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 11:19 am

    Maybe if there was some signs of competence from our current Government then the electorate might form the collective opinion that Scotland could run it’s own affairs.

    Until that happens the majority of the electorate simply do not want Independence for fear of what would follow.

    However our brave posters simply cannot or are unwilling to accept that they are in the minority and produce the same bilge every day. ‘It’s jist no fair’ is the war cry.

    This is the new ‘Better Together’ mantra.

    They claim the current SG prove that the people of Scotland are incapable of running their own affairs.

    How racist can you get?

    What does the current UK Gov tell us?

    Does anyone ask if there is anyone in England capable of running the country?

    Chas happy to vote No because of the sterling performance of current UK Gov?

    Ever wondered how the likes of Chas & Andy Ellis know what the majority of the Scottish electorate want?

    Yer man Chas has a cheek to talk about others posting bilge.

  124. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    I’ve seen a few comments describing the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right and other historical constitutional documents and legal instruments as ancient guff. I disagree.

    Scots history is important.

    Scots history is important because it forms the continuous sequence of past ‘nows’ that lead to the current now we all live in and see around us.

    Scots history is important because it isn’t something separate from now. It’s a bigger picture; an aerial view of now.

    Scots history is important because knowing it helps us understand how Scotland and the Scots arrived at this moment, this ‘now’ in continuous time, where the Scots as a people along with their nation and unique cultural history are on the verge of extinction.

    Scottish Independence isn’t about money. It’s about the survival of a people and the future generations of that people.

    And when survival is at stake all the money and riches and wealth in the world don’t matter a single hoot.

    Because even in some universe where hoots might be the most valuable and rarest of things, life is almost certainly going to be infinitely more valuable and infinitely rarer.

    Only once the immediate threat to survival is overcome do the practicalities of staying alive become paramount.

    Of course, we’re not talking of survival at an individual level; even if independence is denied them life will carry on for Scots in some diminished form or other. Just not as sovereign Scots, or as Scots at all, perhaps, or as their own people with their own culture in their own land.

    The most likely outcome if independence is denied the Scots is their continuation as assimilated second class citizens in some other, alien, culture not their own.

  125. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    autochthonous

    I had to look that up

    autochthonous
    1.(of an inhabitant of a place) indigenous rather than descended from migrants or colonists.
    “newly colonized islands hitherto inhabited by autochthonous people”

    That’s a good word.

    Just need to find out how it’s pronounced.

  126. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s Greek!

    The root of the word autochthonous traces back to the Greek word autokhthon, meaning literally “sprung from the land itself.” Something that’s autochthonous doesn’t have to really spring from the land, but it might seem like it’s been there forever, almost as long as the land.

    What are the root words of autochthonous?
    Their word for any true-born Athenian, “autochth?n,” itself springs from “auto-,” meaning “self,” and “chth?n,” meaning “earth.”

  127. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Confused @ 2:40 pm

    “witch doctors in ghana”

    This is not so far fetched. Colonialism is known to use ‘witch doctors, chiefs and caids’ as confidential agents to manipulate and scare the masses who are ‘steeped in a changeless ever-recurring life without incident’ (Fanon).

    Here the dominant national party makes itself look busy by implementing laws that are increasingly impossible to explain logically based on little more than voodoo which ‘mystify the people’, while attempting to cover its tracks over the lack of any progress on independence.

    Several SNP pieces of legislation seem to come into this ‘witch doctor’ category.

  128. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 3:37 pm

    I’ve seen a few comments describing the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right and other historical constitutional documents and legal instruments as ancient guff. I disagree.

    Scots history is important.

    Unionist don’t want to know! They prefer to imagine Scotland began in 1707.

    Don’t mention Scotland being a colony that drives them potty.

    Not keen on hearing about how ‘Scotland invented the modern world’ either.

  129. Anton Decadent
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s a new Shauny Boy up on YT for those interested.

  130. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Watching the Silver Fox Hot takes & Craig Houston talks.

    Whistleblowing Nurse – Lesley Roberts – due to speak to the Covid Inquiry on the 22nd spoke about corporate homicide.

    Euthanasia with palliative drugs during Covid 19.

    The Shipman sisters – Jean Freeman & Nicola Sturgeon – gave the orders!

    The £200 million covid inquiry is a disgrace. It’s not an inquiry without the truth being spoken by Lesley Roberts.

    You need to get this woman on the phone – her story has been pulled by the newspapers.

    The establishment are trying to silence her – reading the comments she’s now not allowed to give evidence to the inquiry!

    This is disgraceful. Sturgeon will have a super injunction on this story. Her protectors Dorothy Bain will be trying their best to cover up her tracks.

    Corporate Homocide. LET LESLEY SPEAK! INVESTIGATE THIS COVER UP!

  131. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    What is a real scot?
    Even in Scotland there are different Scottish identities.
    Is a real scot Gaelic speaking, I hope not as I may have lived on the west coast for about 12 years but I don’t speak gaelic.
    Is it a scots speaking lowlander, probably OK there as I was brought up in Glasgow.
    is it a Highlander, well despite living in the highlands for about the last 12 years I wouldn’t consider myself one of the miserable B’tards.
    Or is it the northern islanders where I spend a lot of time, they don’t speak gaelic and are of general Danish Descent and have a little bit of nordic blood in them. I seem to get on fine with them 🙂
    And thats before even thinking about the Doric folk who I don’t know much about as I can’t understand them.
    Who is a scot?

  132. Geoff Anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Greens having a clear out of any normal people
    https://x.com/HolyroodDaily/status/1791117209839767879

  133. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Alf Baird,

    4:07 pm.

    I am not sure these laws being passed as “Scots laws” under a Westminster administration sent to Scotland could be classed as Scots laws if the parliament is the administration of Westminster,

    The Scottish parliament was dissolved in 1707, and as far as can be ascertained that has never been repealed or reopened,

    It is not a Scottish parliament, it is a rolled down devolved parliament from Westminster
    Legislation.

    If Scotland did have a real Scottish parliament with no reservations from Westminster legislation , do you think we would still be in the treaty of union?

  134. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s great to see all this concern for the people of Scotland and their traditions surfacing. I take it this suspiciously newly found interest has some kind of bad polling figures as its root cause.

    Anybody want to comment on the list of Scottish kings and queens, stretching from Kenneth I in 843, up to (with a few interruptions) James VI, who went off to rule England as well in 1603? Scotland as an enthusiastic royalist stronghold is the historic reality, although you will never find that out by reading on here.

    Let me guess – our traditions are just another pick’n’mix banquet for those with axes to grind.

    Looking at you in particular, RepublicOfScotland.

    Which brings me to your post of 3:19.

    How many autochthonous Scots have more than two kids anyway? The ones with big families are mostly immigrants, starting with our recently departed Dear Leader and working down from there. I don’t lose any sleep over people whom I don’t want in the country to start with, who choose to have too many kids, and then expect others to pay for them.

    That’s something else our cultural heritage would teach anybody who was really interested. As recently as a century ago, say to any decent working class Scotsman he couldn’t put food on the table and a roof over their heads for his wife and kids and he would have knocked you flat for the insult.

    Still not jenoside either, but you’ve invested too much in that lie to change your song now.

  135. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rob says: 16 May, 2024 at 4:57 pm

    The Northern Islanders shift for themselves.

    Those in the Central Belt sit around waiting for hand outs, although it’s graduated, with the loudest whinging in the west. That could be because most of those in the east are English.

    The Borderers look with longing to the south. They want to get back to their historic tradition of being part of Northumbria. That’s why it’s solid Tory voters from sea to shining sea on this side of the border.

    That just leaves the Gaelic speakers. I think myself they just want to be left alone to enjoy their Celtic Twilight in their own way.

    Scotland as a unitary entity is just as much a fallacy as is the UK itself. When the fission does start, the chances of Scotland herself splitting up seems just logical to me.

    But to even mention that on here, let alone discuss it, is the purest form of heresy known.

  136. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rob 4.57

    Who is a scot?

    I don’t have much time for Ruth Wishart, but like most Scots I applaud her sentiment from 2012:

    A Scot is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.

    Anyone who thinks otherwise is no friend of the independence movement, whether their motivation is simple xenophobia or to cast the nationalist movement in a bad light.

  137. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 4:57 pm

    What is a real scot?
    Even in Scotland there are different Scottish identities.
    Is a real scot Gaelic speaking, I hope not as I may have lived on the west coast for about 12 years but I don’t speak gaelic.
    Is it a scots speaking lowlander, probably OK there as I was brought up in Glasgow.
    is it a Highlander, well despite living in the highlands for about the last 12 years I wouldn’t consider myself one of the miserable B’tards.
    Or is it the northern islanders where I spend a lot of time, they don’t speak gaelic and are of general Danish Descent and have a little bit of nordic blood in them. I seem to get on fine with them ?
    And thats before even thinking about the Doric folk who I don’t know much about as I can’t understand them.

    Who is a scot?

    Did you check the meaning of autochthonous?

    A Scot is indigenous rather than descended from migrants or colonists.

    Do you know what a native American or a Aboriginal Australia is? A Scot is similar.

    Get it?

    I don’t know much about the Aboriginal Australia but the Native American like the Scots speak different languages and have different tribes it’s probably the same for Aboriginal Australians.

    You have these terms like ‘New Australians’ and ‘New Scots’ Not too sure if the term ‘New Americans’ is used.

    The term ‘New Scots’ is a relatively new term. That just means they aren’t autochthonous Scots. I don’t know who came up with the term ‘New Scots’ but it seems similar to me as the claim that ‘trans women are women’

    Hope that helped.

    Perhaps you could tell me

    Who is a Brit? What is British culture?

  138. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Hatey 5.42pm

    I think the prospect of Scotland being Balkanised post indy is more of a unionist trope than close to any actual desire by the folks in the Borders or Shetland to exclude themselves from the new state should it come to pass.

    I doubt there’s much reliable polling evidence, but the last one I saw referred to for the Northern Isles (which was done by the P&J some years before indyref1)showed a supermajority of inhabitants would vote to stay part of Scotland rather than remain part of the UK or declare UDI.

    I suspect the islanders would be much better advised to seek a Faroe Islands style deal? As an exclave within an independent Scotland’s EEZ the Shetlands (or the Northern Isles collectively) would have no EEZ of their own, so would have limited resources.

    As for the Borderers, when it comes to it I doubt very much they find the prospect of Rory Stewart’s resurrected Middleland that attractive or plausible. Again it sounds much more like British nationalist wish fulfilment than anything with a political, intellectual or social hinterland.

  139. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    Odd that all of the wee nativists bigots getting excited about their newly found go-to term autochthonous haven’t twigged that if the definition of Scots excludes those descended from “migrants and colonists”, there’s an awfy lot of New Scots with Irish antecedents that might want to have a word with them.

    Many of them arrived relatively recently…in fact often more recently than many of the Scots colonists who became Australians, Canadians, Americans and Kiwis.

    Perhaps it’s OK if it’s only part of your indigenous bloodline…? I’m sure there’s a term for it…?

    Mischling wasn’t it….?

  140. twathater
    Ignored
    says:

    It appears the Roddick dumbo and even Alex Salmond in their haste to facilitate a union of countries which is not actually a union of countries it’s jist called somfin else, have forgotten about our reparations for all the resources stolen from Scotland and Scots
    I think Alex and Emma have forgotten that engerland doesn’t like to pay its debts, in fact it will do anything to AVOID paying it’s debts just ask the eu or France ,so maybe this unifying collective friendship that they both desire so much with engerland might not seem as desirable as they think

    But maybe Alex and Emma are thinking that we Scots who are forever being told by our indulgent neighbours that we are TOO WEE,TOO POOR and TOO STUPID,and that we are constantly subsidised by them because we are nothing but beggars should maybe just forget about any reparations from the hundreds of years of theft and pillage that our friendly neighbours have forced on us because they are really our best buds and it is just BANTER

  141. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 5:48 pm

    “A Scot is … anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.”

    Liberal Imperialism does not appear to have gone down too well elsewhere:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20240516123502/https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/15/new-caledonia-protests-law-constitution-changes

  142. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    Alf Baird

    Couldn’t agree with you more than I do, the whole wee pretendy parliament is voodoo, mythical and full of ….itch doctors spouting imaginary Scots laws.

    But I do get exasparated when Scottish people speak of Holyrood as if it were a Scottish parliament entirely from a unoinist point of view.

    It is a down grade a and a Colonial admin.

  143. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    “I think the prospect of Scotland being Balkanised post indy is more of a unionist trope”

    To be precise its George Robertson’s BS, which he uttered just prior to the 2014 indyref, I thought you being a die-hard Atlanticists the same as Robertson, would’ve know that.

    ——————-

    “Odd that all of the wee nativists bigots”

    Really, a touch of the Sunak in that poor statement, of Brexit wasn’t that about the nativist bigots taking back control and don’t mention the boat people.

    Salmond made one big mistake he enfranchised everyone and their dogs on a one off constitutional vote of which many countries don’t give a constitutional vote to folk not born in that country, if he hadn’t made such a blundering error we’d have been long shot of the bucket of shit union as Scots voted yes in 2014.

  144. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Vivian 3.23 pm

    I wonder how many of the 80 odd percent of the populations who ARE indigenes we have to persuade to grow a pair and vote Yes, or even to turn up and vote, to offset the few percent of non-indigenes who will vote No?

    Of course the relevance of New Caledonia to our case seems rather opaque, given that it is clearly a case of decolonisation, appears on the UN’s list of non-self governing territories, and has a total population of around 270,000 of which native Kanaks now comprise only 41%.

  145. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 6.18 pm

    The Scotland = New Caledonia false equivalence gets no more convincing for the constant fluffing it receives from the usual suspects Alf.

    Get back to us when the UN adds Scotland to the list, hmmmnn?

  146. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “Who is a Brit? What is British culture?”

    Those are good questions, Ruby Tuesday. I wonder if you’ll get an answer.

  147. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    A (BLiS) British Labour in Scotland councillor in Glasgow looks to be in a wee bit of trouble here.

    “A LABOUR politician who quit amid a probe into her son being awarded work by a housing association she sat on the board of is facing a standards complaint.

    Glasgow Labour councillor Elaine McDougall quit the board of Milnbank Housing Association amid an investigation into the circumstances of her son Gary being contracted for work by the organisation, sharing in a £4 million funding framework.

    The contracts were awarded by Milnbank Housing Association to McDougall’s son Gary’s company in 2017, which was registered at her home address in Dennistoun.

    A subsequent investigation found “no evidence” she had declared or managed the conflict of interest.

    It also found that the housing association had subsequently changed its rules to allow businesses run by family members of people involved with the organisation to be awarded contracts.”

  148. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    James Che

    “Thank you for posting it, I read it out to my Spouse”

    Just noticed this earlier comment of yours, James. I hope your spouse enjoyed your reading.

  149. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    Geoff Anderson , have they been ousted or have they walked ? There was certainly talk of unrest in the ranks.

    I noticed 4 undesirables in the front of that photo.

    Northcode , loved your poem.

  150. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @RoS 6.49pm

    You cannae get a fag paper between the little Englander gammons who circle jerked so furiously for brexit for so long that they poisoned enough Tories to vote for it, and the xenophobic nativists bigots trying to strangle civic nationalism in Scotland.

    Salmond, like most Scots, only has scorn for those advocating franchise restriction and blood and soil ethnic purity tests.

    You’re still doing that thing bigots do: trying to deflect from the fact that the vast majority of self determination referendums since WW2 used the same, or more liberal, franchises than ours in 2014.

    The franchises for elections or constitutional votes in already independent states are a whole different ball game. No matter how often your intellectual dishonesty is pointed out, you just keep banging on. It remains utter bollocks of course.

  151. James Barr Gardner
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s Norwegian DNA that’s found in Ireland, Scotland, the Isle on Man, Iceland, Faroe Islands and Greenland.

    Danish DNA can be traced on the Western coast of France and the Eastern side of England, if the genocide had not been carried out by the English on St Brice’s Day there would have been a lot more Danish DNA in England !

  152. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks for the link Alf. 6.18pm.

    A facet of colonialism at work mind you the French are in the process of being booted out of umpteen African countries and not before time.

    “Rioting began this week before politicians in Paris – 10,600 miles (17,000 km) away – voted on a bill to allow French residents who have lived in New Caledonia for 10 years the right to vote in provincial elections. Some local leaders fear this change would dilute the share of the vote held by Kanaks, the Indigenous group that makes up about 41% of the population and the major force in the pro-independence movement.”

    Like the Kanaks, Scots should not be letting a foreign country decide anything for it people. Local leaders are correct to worry, the English flooded Wales and although Welsh folk voted against Brexit the incomers vote made it look like the Welsh voted for Brexit when they didn’t.

    The flooding process is well underway in Scotland from folk South of the border, I foresee the Kanaks eventually taking up arms in resistance against their colonial masters and who could blame them.

  153. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Just for clarity. 17% of Scotlands population were born outwith Scotland. To claim its a few percent is entirely dissengenuous.

    If 80% of them voted no, as they did in 2014. Then that’s nearly 14% added to the no vote. The difference between 36% and 50%. This has a fundamental effect on any referendum result.

    Its why the right on civic nationalism group ignore it ,or suggest it doesn’t matter. Because they know in their hearts it actually changes everything.

    Is it my job as a Scot to convince non Scots to free my country? I think not.

  154. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    “Salmond, like most Scots, only has scorn for those advocating franchise restriction and blood and soil ethnic purity tests.”

    So other nations that don’t enfranchise everyone (foreigners) on constitutional votes are in your eyes blood and soil countries. Good luck with trying to convince folk of that you’ll need it.

    ————-

    “The franchises for elections or constitutional votes in already independent states are a whole different ball game.”

    Really?

    You’re not going to dig out that tired old paper written by some Spanish guy that has now eight whatsoever again are you.

  155. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy you do know that you will never achieve independence with the 2014 franchise. As long as you are comfortable never seeing independence! But at least you can polish your halo until you die.

    I am not a bigot for pointing out the reality. I prefer reality to delusional pipe dreams of a utopian velvet divorce.

  156. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Many of them arrived relatively recently…in fact often more recently than many of the Scots colonists who became Australians, Canadians, Americans and Kiwis.

    Are you referring to nationality or ethnicity?

    It would be more relevant to the discussion if you claimed these Scots colonists became Aborigines, Native Americans or
    Maori.

    What’s wrong with being Irish? Why would they want to transition to being New Scots.

    Who is an Australian, American or New Zealander?

  157. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    “Just for clarity. 17% of Scotlands population were born outwith Scotland. To claim its a few percent is entirely dissengenuous.”

    Interesting point, however the criteria should be one of that you must live and work in Scotland, in my opinion casting a vote from say Australia, Canada South Africa etc is not on.

    Incidentally have you ever noticed that if you live in another country say Spain or France that you are classed as an expat and not an emigrant, but everyone else from every other country is either an immigrant or emigrant, that’s the old English imperialist mindset at play there.

  158. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy and stop calling people nativists. Most of my ancestors are of Irish origin. But I was born in Scotland ,third generation Scot.

    But I think only people born and living or living in Scotland since early childhood should get a vote. Why? Because we have invested all our lives in this nation. We understand it, we are culturally Scots and have not just moved here to retire or die to a job.

    Being Scottish is more than just residence.

  159. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Alf Baird would have had to have stated that New Caledonia’s struggle for independence and Scotland’s were identical and one and the same before the claim of false equivalence could be made against him.

    He merely provided a link to a news story about a people seeking their liberation from what remains of France’s South Pacific empire.

    The indigenous Kanaks of New Caledonia have been struggling for their liberation from French colonial rule since the 1970s.

    Similarities? Certainly. But nobody said they were the same. So no false equivalence.

  160. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Franchise Fanny has gone off on one again.

    What the hell does the franchise have to do with the question ‘who is a Scot’

    Who came up with the term ‘New Scot’?

    Was it the same person who coined the term ‘transwomen are women’.

    Englishmen are Scottish and women have penises.

  161. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Republicofscotland says: 16 May, 2024 at 6:49 pm

    “Salmond made one big mistake”

    Indeed he did. Her name is Sturgeon.

    The mistake you’re writing about makes two.

  162. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Andy Ellis says: 16 May, 2024 at 6:03 pm

    “I think the prospect of Scotland being Balkanised post indy is more of a unionist trope than close to any actual desire by the folks in the Borders or Shetland to exclude themselves from the new state should it come to pass”

    Possibly. Probably. It’s an unknown, but perhaps we could agree that what does happen will be contingent on events.

    Be honest now. If you ever find yourself in an iScotland, mis-governed and mis-managed by dunderheids of the caliber of her whose mugshot adorns the top of this thread, would you absolutely refuse to listen to anybody who came along with a credible plan for your locality to secede?

    Somebody famous said recently there’s going to be more changes in the next 5 years than there has been in the last 30. I think that’s a credible prediction.

  163. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I will be Scottish wherever I go. Why would I want to switch nationality,if I moved to England? Unless I was so ashamed of my native country that is.

    Perhaps at the heart of many English in Scotland is a sense of shame , because they carry the baggage of that country.It’s the reason you only ever hear the name Hamish being given to the children of middle class incomers.Cultural appropriation, and it sounds contrived.

    I feel that with the term British(shame).So I will correct anyone abroad or at home who
    tries to call me British!

  164. Hatuey
    Ignored
    says:

    “Those in the Central Belt sit around waiting for hand outs, although it’s graduated, with the loudest whinging in the west…” (sic)

    Glasgow has been carrying Scotland for centuries, as any basic economic history book will explain. It’s easy to throw the boot in now, as many in the north, south, and east are keen to do, forgetting how much they depended on handouts over the years from Glaswegians, but the dire state of Glasgow today is entirely down to decisions made elsewhere, particularly London.

    It’s just more of the usual cowardly victim blaming…

  165. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 7:04 pm

    “Who is a Brit? What is British culture?”

    Those are good questions, Ruby Tuesday. I wonder if you’ll get an answer.

    These are easy question. A Brit is someone with British nationality and that can be anyone from any part of the world and any culture. British culture is multi-cultural.

    Maybe I should have asked Rob. Who is English and what is English culture.

    I have asked that many times before but didn’t get many answers.

    Are there people in England who are referred to as ‘New English’?

    I’m wondering if Stu ever refers to himself as ‘New English’

  166. sam
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andy Ellis

    “Professor McCorquodale also goes on to confirm that “the people of Scotland are distinct within the UK and have a right to self-determination.” (Paragraph 30) and “the right to self-determination applies to the people of Scotland” (Paragraph 6). He states: “As the people of Scotland are a people for the purposes of the right to self-determination, they can exercise it. The choice of the means to exercise is for the people to decide and not for the State.” (Paragraph 32). He explains that the UK as a signatory to multilateral international human rights treaties has “expressly accepted that the right to self-determination is a human right” (Paragraph 12) and “not just as an international legal principle – which is binding under international law on all States.” (Paragraph 14). He also asserts that that “secession is not unlawful under international law” (Paragraph 6).”

    https://www.albaparty.org/international_legal_scottish_self_determination

  167. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland does not have any large areas that are completely unionist, or nationalist.The stats are mixed. But at worst maybe 60% unionist in small pockets. So the Bulkinisation couldn’t gain any ground in these areas. This is scare tactics by project fear.

    The truth is that most people in Scotland identify primarily as Scots. So an independent Scotland would not be a threat to their primary identity.

    Indeed it is the British identity in decline , not the Scottish one.

  168. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby Tuesday says:16 May, 2024 at 7:59 pm

    ‘who is a Scot’

    Could be a trick question, but I’ll hazard a guess.

    Is it somebody with three online identities?

  169. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Big Jock says: 16 May, 2024 at 8:23 pm

    “I will correct anyone abroad or at home who tries to call me British!”

    If one day we read of you banged up in some foreign shithole prison for immigration irregularities we’ll know what happened.

  170. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t have a passport. Regardless. Just because I would be forced to do so does not make me British.

    Were the Irish always Irish? Or were they British because of an enforced political identity. The passport argument has been done to death , and it’s utter bullshit. It’s the default mechanism for low level debate.

    There is no nation called Britain.

  171. dasBlimp
    Ignored
    says:

    Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored says:
    16 May, 2024 at 8:36 pm
    Northcode
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 7:04 pm

    Who is English and what is English culture.

    ooh ooh ooh please Miss I know this one miss…

    -English people are born in England and they drink tea and eat fish and chips
    -play cricket and dance around maypoles like sissy fannys
    -care and know nothing about England except in the context of football
    -like to moan a lot about the weather
    -Turn every international holiday hotspot into a shitty little ingerland
    -Play act as the big man but are really cowards
    -Take pride in not knowing any foreign language and
    -willingly tug their forelocks at posh people and think the king is great and he makes them proud.
    -In short, a bunch of spineless cunts… and I should know –

    I am one.

  172. Ruby Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    John Main with his two monikers is jealous because I have four monikers & counting.

    I don’t think anyone has been fooled into thinking ‘Ruby, Ruby’ ‘Ruby Tuesday’ ‘Ruby Wednesday’ or just plain Ruby are different people.

    Ach maybe they have!

    Others may not have the ‘No Shit Sherlock’ detective skills of John Main aka Hatey McHateface

    I have four monikers but I’m not trying to fool anyone but someone with four monikers as distinct as Andy Ellis, John Main, Chas & Hatey McHate yer face might be trying to con you into thinking they are four different posters who all know exactly what the majority of the Scottish electorate think and who all agree with one another.

  173. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 7.37pm

    Its why the right on civic nationalism group ignore it ,or suggest it doesn’t matter. Because they know in their hearts it actually changes everything.

    Civic nationalist still make up the vast majority of the movement. You and yer wee coterie of xenophobes and nativists would be better using some of the spittle flecked rage to persuade more native born Scots to vote Yes. 52% is piss poor.

    It doesn’t change everything, because neither you nor any of the other moonhowlers know what the adverse impact on the Yes vote would have been if you’d gotten your way before 2014. For all you know it would have reduced the Yes vote.

    The relatively small percentages you’re concerned about could be swamped by the simple expedient of persuading more of the 48% of native born Scots who voted No to switch, and by increasing turnout.

    Both of these could and would be practically easier and morally more defensible than breaking with international norms and disenfranchising random numbers of fellow Scots because you don’t consider them ethnically pure enough.

  174. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Love it Das Blimp. You know your nation so well. Lol.

  175. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock

    “Is it my job as a Scot to convince non Scots to free my country? I think not.”

    Exactly. Well said..

  176. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 6:57 pm

    “The Scotland = New Caledonia false equivalence”

    On the contrary, Macron’s crude attempts at ‘civic nationalism’ appear designed to keep the vote in favour of French rule, and therefore the usurper, hence the conflict.

  177. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    My advice to anyone of Irish descent is to get yourself an Irish passport if there is any risk of you being in trouble while abroad.

  178. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Sam 8.37 pm

    It’s a good statement of the position in international law. It is earnestly to be hoped that the movement will use the route proposed by Alex Salmond of plebiscitary elections.

    Sadly I fear it’s too late to do anything about the Westminster elections, which are pointless from a Scottish point of view. 2026 though….? Who knows. I don’t know if the movement is capable of mobilising for then either. 🙁

  179. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Shitey face

    “one day we read of you banged up in some foreign shithole prison for immigration irregularities we’ll know what happened.”

    Just point to the Unicorn on the front & declare yer a sovereign Scot.

    It’s not safe to say British abroad. You’d end up with snot in yer soup.
    They board up towns & villages when they hear them coming for the footie…

    I’m waiting with bated breath on someone answering Ruby Tuesday. “New English” LMAO! They’d be tarred & feathered & tied to a lamp post for uttering that pish.

  180. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy you compare fact with the hypothetical. We know the majority of Scots voted yes Fact! We know the majority of RUK incomers voted no. We know it was enough to turn a victory into a defeat.

    Your theory is a suggestion based on the hypothetical inner workings of Scottish voters minds. Are you suggesting the majority of Scots only voted yes because we gave the English in Scotland a vote. And if we didn’t give incomers a vote, these people would vote no.

    I have never heard such a mad hypothesis in my life.

  181. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Hatey 8.22 pm

    Why will there necessarily be more changes in the next 5 years than the previous 5 years, or the 5 years before that? Colour me unconvinced.

    As for your dystopian predictions of what a future iScotland’s governance might be like, it sounds pretty much like the British nationalist project since brexit. However jaundiced a view we have of the quality of our current system and politicians, I agree with Mrs Howden:

    When we had a king, and a chancellor, and parliament-men o’ our ain, we could aye peeble them wi’ stanes when they werena gude bairns.

  182. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    As for Niger..

    I mentioned on here a few weeks ago Colonialism was over as Africa is telling everyone to GTF out their country. That’s why Macron had an episode & started to try summon NATO & flex his chest cause he thought *them that can’t be mentioned* was putting ideas into their head. It couldn’t possibly be the French theft of their resources.

    Elsewhere there was the lawyer for the ICJ for those other ppl. Anyone who hasn’t heard it should take a listen. It gives international law on decolonisation & right to self determination. The UK cannot impose criteria to meet. They also can’t say “Scotland isn’t ready for indy” or any other attempts at delay. It’s none of their business, they’re not our trustees & they must accept the result.

    That’s why they’re busy moving ppl around to fck up the votes.

  183. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 9.43pm

    I can’t be held responsible for your lack of imagination or ability to grasp the concept. It would only have taken 2% of people to change to deprive you of the much vaunted majority. Doesn’t seem that many.

    I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots. Depends how lucky you feel that the feeling isn’t more general. It’s not worth the risk, but it’s not likely to happen anyway because you’re only representing a minority of cranks.

  184. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Franchise Fanny says

    I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.

    You really need to answer the question ‘Who is a Scot’ before the above can make any sense.

  185. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri. It’s a ticking demographic time bomb.

    What people like Andy don’t grasp. Is that a nation is formed by the people from that land. It’s not formed by incomers replacing indigenous multi generational Scots.

    It takes centuries to form a culture and national identity. What took centuries to become, can be lost in a few decades. To be replaced with who knows what. Once the Scots become a minority in Scotland . Then it’s game over. 17% and growing of non Scots, and they all get to decide our future for us.

    Whilst multiculturalism is a good thing. It is of no use in the mechanism of becoming independent. Because competing nationalities and cultures do not all agree on a collective nationality.

    A country needs a collective will to create independence. Andy’s civic nationalism can only work if a country is already independent. Or we can wait 300 years for a new national identity to form. Or if the number of immigrants were so small it made no material difference.

    Unfortunately that 17% is growing every year . And mostly RUK settlers. We cannot win on those numbers by allowing a free for all.

    But if Andy thinks he can persuade maybe a future 20-25% of non Scots to vote for independence, then he should sell sand to the Arabs.

  186. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    I find this conversation highly entertaining, apparently I am not Scottish:)
    My family is a mix of Scottish English Irish and Canadian but apart from my late father in law who was Irish nobody has ever thought, called or treated any of the family as anything but native Scots because we all are. (Even though I was not born in the UK, never mind Scotland.)
    I think a few folk here really need to take a good long look in the mirror at themselves.

  187. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy. But I wouldn’t be depriving Scots a vote would I. You don’t get to be Scot based on residence.

    Andy Murray is English in that case.

  188. Shug
    Ignored
    says:

    I see the master is on QT tonight.

    Should be well worth a watch to see how Flynn dodges indy in favour of devo max

  189. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.”

    We wouldn’t be. They’re not Scots. They have their own nationality.

    Has Alex Salmond said any old Tom, Dick or Harry is a “Sovereign Scot”

  190. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Andy Ellis says: 16 May, 2024 at 9:52 pm

    Thanks for not addressing the points I raised in my post of 8:22.

    Sam at 8:37 was pointing out that “the right to self-determination applies to the people of Scotland”.

    There’s a group-think going on in which everybody discussing it chooses to believe that our unique and special Scottish Sovereignty only actually applies when every Sovereign Scot thinks and acts in lockstep.

    I’m not in that group.

    Quite why the self-determination of Sovereign Scots should be held up as Yoon scaremongering eludes me. It is certainly instructive though, just how scared and panicky some Nationalists get at the thought that some of their fellow Scots may develop a liking and a taste for self-determination and choose to take it to the next step.

    “dystopian predictions of what a future iScotland’s governance might be like”

    You are entirely right, Andy. Past performance is no guide to future behaviour. Shame that humans aren’t wired to see things that way.

    Miraculous increases in politician’s IQ’s are rare occurrences though.

  191. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy my demographic projection comes from the Scottish census. The figures are there if you care to look. Net migration into Scotland from RUK is growing every year since 2014.

  192. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.”

    I very much doubt you would anyway.

    So far that’s ..

    A free for all indyref franchise
    NATO membership (even tho it’s teetering on collapse)
    EU membership (ditto)

    You think you’ll impose on a YES movement..

    Who made you in charge?

    Haven’t you just arrived in Scotland?

  193. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob. If you weren’t born in Scotland, you can’t be a native Scot. That’s into the Gender debate ideology. An apple is an orange.

    By the way there is nothing wrong with being born somewhere else. But if I moved to Canada when I was 5 and said I was native Canadian, it would just be nonsense.

  194. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob
    Ignored
    says:
    16 May, 2024 at 10:22 pm

    I find this conversation highly entertaining, apparently I am not Scottish:)

    It would be helpful if you told us what makes you Scottish Rob.

    It might even answer your original question. ‘Who is a Scot?’

    How do you feel about people coming here and being able to self-identify as Scottish?

    Do you think the term Scottish is as meaningless as the term ‘woman’?

  195. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Geri says: 16 May, 2024 at 9:54 pm

    I can never see that word in print without pronouncing it wrong in my head, and that’s bad, I know, but I bet I’m not the only one.

    But I persevered and eventually got past the first line of your post. So who are *them that can’t be mentioned*?

    Is it the Illuminati?

    And who are “those other ppl”? Are they the Illuminati?

    Have you stopped to consider, among all your glee at the collapse of the Western Rules-Based Order, that all the supranational entities you like to call on, the UN, ICJ, etc. collapse with it?

    In the new multi-polar world you welcome, might is right.

    Leaving you like an unruly adolescent, first reveling in the retreat of the teachers from the playground, then greetin for the teachers to come back and sort out somebody who’s bullying you.

    Whoops!

    Anyhoo, just call me some playground names and you’ll feel better.

  196. McDuff
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis 5.48
    I live in England for many years but i never at any time considered myself English nor did the English, and i doubt that anyone who moved to Scotland from another country would instantly regard themselves as Scots.

  197. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    What this debate proves. Is that Scotland will never get independence via a referendum. The majority of people and politicians are like Andy. Afraid to rock the boat, afraid to admit the truth , trying to be magnanamous whilst giving up their sovereignty.

    No I am afraid the odds are now stacked in the Unions favour when it comes to a referendum.

    I think Scotland will only achieve independence, if a majority nationalist government declare it. That can be done with a lower portion of the electorate. Indeed up to a few months ago we had that majority.

    Most countries who elect an independence majority just start the process of becoming independent. Our government got majority after majority and then retreated at Derby. Maybe the Scots are just so used to losing, they don’t know how to handle victory.

  198. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t need to justify my ancestry to anyone nor will I on here.
    Everybody is already making erroneous assumptions.
    However I will ask one more question regarding the Canadian question above. If both you parents were Canadian and you were born in Scotland but lived just about your whole life in Canada, does that make you Scottish or Canadian?
    If you parents are Irish but you were born and lived all of your life in Scotland, are you Irish or Scottish? What if one of your parents had an English grandmother?
    According to the opinions of some on here none of my family are Scottish and none of them are entitled to the franchise?.
    This is so stupid its not even worth discussing or arguing about and as I said before some of the posters on here need to take a good long look at themselves in a mirror.

  199. George Ferguson
    Ignored
    says:

    A lot of comment on the Franchise again. I would have had Alf at the summit of Ferguson Marine today. What vessels is the Yard capable of building? Yet again Kate Forbes swerved the real issue. Having spent a half billion on keeping the Yard opened, minor contractual issues prevent a Scottish Government decision. Not so for Calmac. Established tendering procedures foregone. I despair at the incompetence of the Scottish Government.

  200. Shug
    Ignored
    says:

    Mr flynn is sinking in front of my eyes

  201. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob answer one Canadian. Answer two Scottish. It’s not that complicated.

    If my parents were both Scots and I was born in England and moved to Scotland when an infant. Then I am Scots. Aidan McGeady is Scottish , but chose to play for Ireland, due to Irish parents. Bit he is certainly not Irish. He lived his entire life in Scotland.

    Grandparents are irrelevant. Other than sports people using it as political convenience to play for another country.

    But someone who has lived their whole life in England and moves here as an adult, is English.

    Remember a first year uni student from Oxford who goes to study in Edunburgh gets a vote under the current franchise. In what way shape or form is that fair.

  202. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    This from:

    ‘Indigenous Peoples and the United Nations Human Rights System Fact Sheet’

    Derived from the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which, by 2010, was supported by the vast majority of United Nations Member States and opposed by none.

    Despite the lack of an authoritative definition, there are criteria that help to define indigenous peoples.

    The main one is the criterion of self-identification and those proposed by José Martínez Cobo in his “Study of the problem of discrimination against indigenous populations”, which include:

    Historical continuity with pre-invasion and/or pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories;
    Distinctiveness;
    Non-dominance; and
    A determination to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories and identity as peoples in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal system.

    The United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Peoples has stressed, in addition to the above:

    A strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources;
    Distinct social, economic or political systems; and
    Distinct language, culture and beliefs.

    Many indigenous peoples populated areas before the arrival of others and often retain distinct cultural and political characteristics, including autonomous political and legal structures, as well as a common experience of domination by others, especially non-indigenous groups, and a strong historical and ongoing connection to their lands, territories and resources.

  203. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    I know its not that complicated, although various designations have been changed in my descriptions to protect the innocent (and to make a point by turning thjngs around a bit to confuse some of the puir souls) the principles are sound in the argument
    Personally I was born abroad but I am a native scot despite what has been suggested by some above. (actually Glaswegian but I haven’t lived there for about 25 years now)
    While I was uncomfortable to extending the franchise to under 18’s for various reasons we lost the americas for the very same reason. No taxation without representation. If you work, live and pay tax in scotland you are entitles to vote here.
    The rules for whether you should be allowed to live in scotland are a different matter and are a completely different discussion. If you are here legally and paying tax you can vote.
    Or do folk not remember just how many scots live in englandshire, can they not vote there if they live there? Think this through guys.

  204. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob

    Why couldn’t EU citizens living in the UK vote in the Brexit referendum?

    Why can’t they vote in General Elections?

    Why can “expats” living in Spain or elsewhere get a vote on who can be the UK prime minister? They no longer live here.

    Why are you off to Canada for examples when you could use England?

  205. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    Actually I voted leave in the Brexit referendum and would do so again.
    Scotland and/or the UK ain’t going back into the EU for a long time if ever. Scotland on its own definitely not.

  206. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “If you work, live and pay tax in scotland you are entitles to vote here.”

    No yer not. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the UK franchise who restrict who can vote in all elections & referendums.

  207. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Robs getting franchises mixed up.

    You pay taxes and are resident, yes you can vote in council and national elections. But a national referendum on the future of a nation is a completely different ball game.

    You do not let retiree incomers , RUK students or second homers vote on the very existence of our country. Its completely wrong headed.

  208. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    How do you know what the EU will accept or not? LOL!

    Who wouldn’t want an energy rich, resource rich, territory undisputed, wealthy nation?

    Answer my questions tho …why does little England have voting restrictions on their franchise? And allow Uncle Albert, now living in the Costas, a vote on GE? They don’t live here & don’t pay taxes.

    I see they’re removing EU citizens from local elections too. Jeez, franchise fanny will have a fit I’m sure at those moon howling nativist bigots.

  209. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock

    Agreed. Constitutional referendums are not for part time residents. It’d make every countries constitution a complete farce.

    The mistake Salmond made was allowing an indyref within a domestic setting playing to domestic rules. It should’ve been conducted by international observers.

    So called indy supporters forget that we are already trying to leave a hostile nation where even the rules on purdah (pre election rules) were allowed to be flagrantly broken & emblazoned across a national rag 10 or so days before the vote along with BBC Devo max.

    Now eejits think we should just re-run the same shit again incase Betty fae Manchester, now living in Perth who just moved a week ago, gets herself all hurty cause she can’t vote in a Scottish constitutional referendum.

    The entitlement is rank.. but you can tell the bad actors cause we don’t see them moaning about the UK franchise. Just Scotlands. Funny that – not.

  210. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    According to the opinions of some on here none of my family are Scottish and none of them are entitled to the franchise?.

    Your question was ‘who is a Scot’

    You seem pretty sure what a Scot is so why don’t you give us the answer to your question.

    Who is a Scot Rob?

    Nobody has said that ‘non Scots’ cannot vote in Scotland.

  211. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    According to the opinions of some on here none of my family are Scottish and none of them are entitled to the franchise?.

    Your question was ‘who is a Scot’

    You seem pretty sure who is a Scot is so why don’t you give us the answer to your question.

    Who is a Scot Rob?

    Nobody has said that ‘non Scots’ cannot vote in Scotland.

  212. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe because the Scottish Gov approached the EU to talk to them about rejoining and got chased.
    I wasn’t surprised as I cannot see the EU wanting to shortcut the process all the Eastern European countries went through and neither did I think they would want another back door to the rest of the UK opened.
    I have never understood why Indy supporters are so desperate to join another larger unrepresentative body where we would be an even smaller minority once they got out of the one they are complaining about already.

    as to “You do not let retiree incomers , RUK students or second homers vote on the very existence of our country. Its completely wrong headed”

    retiree incomers, if they live here and this is their permanent address why not? it affects them as much as anybody else.

    Students are generally still domiciled “at home” for voting, locally same as Second homers.
    They do not usually have a vote except where their primary address is unless it is for local council elections and suchlike, the second registration is looked at generally on a case for case basis and can’t be a large number anyway to get het up about.
    I know I have never bothered to register more than one vote in different locations.

  213. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob you are so wrong.

    The EU is not and never was a sovereign state. It is a collective of independent nations. And Scotland would be represented as one of those nations,but still a sovereign country. At the moment we are not sovereign. WM is, and we have representation but no power or influence on that institution. We cannot leave without permission( apparently). They run foreign policy, macro economics , immigration and defence.

    The EU does none of those things. But the English painted the myth that they somehow did. Hence the English Brexit.

    As for retirees from England voting on another country’s future. You are completely misunderstanding what a nation is. It’s not about them , or their personal circumstances and bank balance.

    This is about a nation, which is not their nation. They are migrants not nationals. Would they get a vote on Catalonias future or any other aspiring nation they are not from?

  214. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri @ 12:47 am

    “The entitlement is rank.. but you can tell the bad actors”

    Yes, even among the leaders of Scottish higher education institutions who seem unable to find a Scot to award an honorary doctorate to. In a colonial society discrimination of ‘a people’ becomes institutionalised, i.e. it is the norm:

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24325984.royal-conservatoire-scotland-announce-honorary-doctorates/

  215. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rob says:17 May, 2024 at 12:57 am

    “I have never understood why Indy supporters are so desperate to join another larger unrepresentative body where we would be an even smaller minority once they got out of the one they are complaining about already”

    Amen, brother. But the explanation is simple. To counter the “too wee, too poor” trope, an SNP bright spark, decades ago, came up with “Independence In Europe”, i.e. “Dinna fash, we’ll still have grown-ups in charge, even after Indy”. Maybe the idea was that after a decade or so in control, that could be ditched, due to the self-evident competence and capability of ScotGov. Ha!

    You’re new on here I think. Stick around long enough and you will encounter another meme you won’t be able to understand.

    Among all the posts about colonialism, and the definitions of what constitutes an indigenous people groaning under the oppressive yoke of an occupying militarist imperialism, you will encounter posts from the enthusiasts for the imperialist destruction of other colonised indigenous nations.

    Quite often these are one and the same poster!

    You have to conclude that most words in common usage have two meanings: the meaning used by ordinary Scots in their daily lives. And the special meaning used here when writing about Indy.

    Or just apply Occam’s razor and reach the simpler conclusion.

  216. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock says: 17 May, 2024 at 6:55 am

    “The EU is not and never was a sovereign state. It is a collective of independent nations”

    No nation is Independent unless it controls its own currency, and hence its own economy. The EU has the Euro, a “one size fits all” solution designed to lock in German industrial preeminence, just as the CAP was designed to lock in French agricultural preeminence. Go figure.

    As for “is not and never was a sovereign state”. Are we supposed to forget about the pledges of “ever closer union”? What do you think that’s about?

  217. KITTYBEE
    Ignored
    says:

    @hatey Mchateface

    You make the case for Scottish Independence so well.

  218. Frank Gillougley
    Ignored
    says:

    I know this has been done to the death but nevertheless, Cultural identity is an interesting and nuanced one.
    Like many others, my Grandparents were from counties, Down, Antrim and Tyrone.
    They were economic migrants to the West of Scotland.
    Being Irish catholics they changed the spelling of their surname to make it sound more Scottish and to mask their Irishness.
    In the job market before the war they experienced straightforward in your face sectarianism.
    I just remembered the other day they would have us sing in primary school, Hail glorious st patrick dear saint of our isle!
    / Not my isle mate. Ill get to the point.
    I never ever felt Scottish and I never ever felt Irish. I had the total scottish cringe. And then lo and behold i found out the reason why. I was that Ulsterman!!! Never! Never! Never!
    I left Scotland 3 years ago, cashed in my sectarian dividend and got an irish passport, live in the EU with my wife looking after my ageing mother in law and never ever looked back. It all became a bit pointless spoiling ballot papers.

  219. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    There is no «case» for Scottish independence any more than there is «case» for breathing.
    Independence = the VITAL BREATH of a free people.

  220. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis said;

    “I can’t be held responsible for your lack of imagination or ability to grasp the concept. It would only have taken 2% of people to change to deprive you of the much vaunted majority. Doesn’t seem that many.”

    2% isn’t many, granted, but it didn’t happen. As I pointed out earlier, there is no alternative data available to contradict the conclusion of the Edinburgh study, just idle speculation like yours. Speculation isn’t an argument.

    As for;

    “I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.”

    I wouldn’t either, obviously; but that’s just your usual dishonest framing, again. You’re presuming that those ‘hundreds of thousands’ are already enfranchised in the first place.

    That’s just speculation on your part again, simply because a suitable franchise for a serious constitutional plebiscite hasn’t even been properly considered yet, let alone decided, so their status in that specific regard is currently unknown.

    And;

    “you’re only representing a minority of cranks.”

    We can say the same of you.

  221. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    FRANK GILLOUGLEY.

    «Glorious st Patrick» was very likely from south west Scotland.
    He was certainly not Irish.
    Culture matters but do not put too much emphasis on «identity».
    Identities, as we see with gender politicking may be just made up for pure ad hoc reasons.

  222. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “What do you think that’s about?”

    American hegemony, ya dummy.

  223. James
    Ignored
    says:

    Gas Main having a conversation with himself now… lol

  224. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    It is interesting just how much of West Central Scotland is of relatively recent Irish Descent.
    Since only “true scots” according to some posters are the only folk that would be allowed to vote and the definition of a “true scot” is those who are “autochthonous” and not immigrants of any sort.
    I wonder just how how many generations you need to go back before being considered “autochthonous”
    It all seems to me like an attempt to fiddle the figures in your favour and I think few folk on here would qualify as “scots” if the rule was applied rigorously.
    Hence my rhetorial question, “who IS a a scot?”

  225. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @TURABDIN says:17 May, 2024 at 9:09 am

    “There is no «case» for Scottish independence any more than there is «case» for breathing.”

    As we can see from recent posts, we can’t even agree on the definition of Independence!

  226. Frank Gillougley
    Ignored
    says:

    Turabdin 9.2o

    My point re St Patrick was about indoctrination. Or in modern terms, gender politicking. I was about 7yrs old at the time! about 6o years ago! As RD Laing put it, the three biggest influences on your life are> the church the state and the family. Regarding identities, I probably never had one! Not a hippy and not a punk. Where I live i hear the sound of freight trains in the night. I love these things. They are without political boundaries. Older than modern nation states.

  227. sam
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andy Ellis

    Prof McCorquodale (obvious Scots ancestry) set out the two legal routes to Scottish independence. He did not mention a referendum or franchise.

    What about the Scottish diaspora? Before Brexit they were likely to oppose independence. Post Brexit it seems they are more likely to support it. Small samples though and I can’t remember the researchers.

    I was born in NI and have lived in Scotland for more than 40 years. On my father’s side I am a Mc from the Highlands and from the Black Isle on my mother’s side.

    When I first came to Scotland I was surprised to find I knew many more Scots words than the Edinburgh Scottish people I met.

    What is a Scot?

  228. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “who IS a a scot?”

    Anyone who has lived here 20 yrs prior to 1978.

    There ya go. Scotland as it was before talk of devolution kicked in & oil came ashore.

    Who IS English? & Why have you no problem with their franchise restrictions?

    You don’t seem to answer folks questions do you?
    You just ask more.

    Asked & answered.

  229. James
    Ignored
    says:

    Seems like ‘rob’ is here to mislead and stir it.

    Let’s cut to the chase….
    For a referendum vote I would say;

    born in Scotland or
    lived in Scotland i.e. main residence, for at least 10 years [or 15? 20? debatable]

    But this issue should be decided in a rational debate and not by tarring anyone as ‘xenophobic’ for even mentioning it, yes, ‘Andy’?

    As I’ve pointed out before my English friend who has lived in France for 25 years and took French citizenship years ago does NOT get to vote in French national ‘general’ elections or national referendums, and never will get a vote in those. He only gets a vote in the Euro elections and local council elections.

    Oh, those xenophobic, blood and soil, moon-howling, nativist, nasty, NASTY, bad French folk!

  230. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “Anyone who has lived here 20 yrs prior to 1978”

    So its just a time figure, you have to be here 66 years to be scottish, even if you are patently not by upbringing or culture, interesting and completely contradicts previous posters.

    What about those who are under 66 but were born here from immigrants?

    What about a 1 year old who is 65 years old and has lived here all their life?

    What about a couple who moved here from anywhere else in the UK NI is a good one as they are ethnically scots, and settled here in 1979 and have lived here all their life.

    Some of these folk are legally scottish, or ethnically scottish or know nothing but being scottish from birth.
    Why would they not get to vote?

    I keep asking the question because I feel some of the answers don’t make sense, I don’t think it is possible to define what being scottish means without personal prejudices applying themselves-.

  231. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    Not stirring it, in fact my view is that having a main residence in Scotland, whether there is a reasonable time limit as above, should be the criteria to vote.

    It is others who seem to be trying to restrict the right to only those who they think may vote for their view, read the posts above.

    I have just been pointing out the ridiculousness of some of those views.

  232. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Who is a true Scot?

    Anyone that’s lived in Scotland for 25 years. I’d accept that.

    My neighbours both sides of me are English. One voted for Independence the other didn’t!

    This is my country. That’s how I feel.

    We need a residency status franchise. We need to stop the English coming up from London with cash offers. Driving up the house prices in Glasgow.

    Enough is enough! This is our country! I want a Scotland for the Scots! No more money for our colonial tax collectors. If the Alba Party proposes this model well everyone will vote for the Alba Party. We need a Scotland for the Scots. A Scotland first Alba Party.

    We need a ban on asylum seekers quite franky. We must follow what the dutch are doing. They have voted in a right wing Government. We can vote in a left wing Government and still ban illegal migration. Stop the boats. And start the planes. And get Independence for the natives of Scotland.

    I see the

  233. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “When I first came to Scotland I was surprised to find I knew many more Scots words than the Edinburgh Scottish people I met.”

    Hardly surprising as Lothian still speak the purest form of the original English language anywhere in the UK, even England.

  234. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    I see the Dutch have decided to ban all asylum seekers.

    Our natural enemy is the English.

    We need the Alba Party to start conducting research. To start polling the natives on Independence.

    We need to implant in the psyche of the Scots – Are you happy with the English coming up with Cash offers for the house you want?

    NO!

    Do you know the consequences of the English invasion of Scotland?

    READ THIS!

    Independence will be inevitable!

    Do you know that Scotland created the industrial revolution and the land of enlightenment – through the British Empire?

    PRIDE!

    We’ve got so much to offer. We need to educate the Scots. Time to ramp up the Scotland First rhetoric.

    OH its anti English – Scotland is anti English. We are Scotland First. Because we want equality with the English. Not second class votes.

    I’m spoiling my ballot. The alba party needs to offer me the alterative. Scotland First. To hell with the english feelings – an alien race in our native land!

  235. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    YouGov, Westminster voting intention, field work 15 – 16 May. Scottish sub-sample (174).
    Con 14% seats 5 (-1)
    Lab 36% seats 30 (+29)
    LibDem 5% seats 4 (+2)
    SNP 31% seats 18 (-30)

  236. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s time to take back control of our laws and our borders. And our native land. Our hills. Our valleys. Our glens. Our estates. Our oil fields. Our prosperity!!

    Build the fucking wall. No more English invaders!

    Alba Party. Read this!

  237. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    ABE. ABE. Anyone. But. England.

    ABE!

    Build the wall.

    No more English invaders. Winston Churchill shall never again send his tanks to Glasgow!

    We are putting an end to the cash offer English invaders. Coming to steal our homes.

    Alba Party. Read this and inspire freedom’s call! For Scotland!

  238. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    The term ‘Scottish independence’ isn’t aspirational enough for Scotland; a nation on the edge of extinction.

    I prefer the more accurate aspirational term ‘Scottish liberation’.

    Liberation (noun) A definition of political liberation as given on the internet:

    In the context of nations or groups, political liberation involves breaking free from colonial rule, foreign occupation, or oppressive regimes. It often leads to the establishment of independent states or self-governance.

    Scottish Liberation:

    The liberation of the Scots from oppressive colonial rule and the ending of their nation’s occupation by a foreign power.

    Scottish independence = Scottish liberation.

    Scottish liberation – that works for me; both as an aspirational term and as an objective.

  239. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob the Ridiculous Ranter

    Since only “true scots” according to some posters are the only folk that would be allowed to vote and the definition of a “true scot” is those who are “autochthonous” and not immigrants of any sort.

    Absolutely nobody is saying that!

    You keep asking the question ‘Who is a Scot’ but you don’t seem to know the answer. You just keep ‘franchise fannying’ about who should vote in a Independence referendum.

    The No 1 Franchise Fanny seems to have successfully turned a simple question into a discussion about the fuckin’ franchise, nativists, moon howlers, fringe nutters, bigots and all the usual ‘Franchise Fanny’ pish.

    I don’t have a problem with people being Irish but I find it hard to accept someone with a broad Irish accent who has been in Scotland for a fortnight telling me they are Scottish. Equally difficult to accept a man with a beard and an erection telling me he is a woman.

    Leslie Riddoch’s answer to the question is simple everyone living in Scotland is Scottish. Why would she do this and who came up with the term ‘New Scots’

    Like the term woman the term Scottish is becoming meaningless.

    Humza Yousaf claims he is from an ethnic minority and at the same time that he is Scottish.

    How can you be Scottish and be a ethnic minority in Scotland?

    BTW Das Blimp the question about ‘who is English’ was a serious question.

    Are there people in England referred to as ‘New English’

  240. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Jeez, I was taking the piss just like you are.

    The franchise, if there ever is one, will be decided by a convention. Thrashed out with a mix of international best practice & decided by Scots.

    I don’t think there will be a referendum because England isn’t in the business of honouring democracy or letting it’s last remaining cash cow walk out the door with it’s cash & it’s international status along with it.

    Salvo/liberation & international courts will be how we’ll gain our independence. Not through politicians who are easily captured & an easily rigged domestic run referendum. The treaty will be void for repeated breach of contract that has no legal authority in Scotland to do so.

    That’s why independence is alive & well. The YES movement isn’t the SNP so the SNP can be as fcked up as Westminster wants them to be – they’ve only destroyed themselves as a party. Not so easy to capture a whole movement that can’t be as easy to manipulate & who isn’t on their payroll.

    So argue about franchise all you like. It won’t be a factor. Terminating the treaty of Union will & at the very least a referendum on REJOINING if that option is ever put on the table cause Scotland was never asked in a vote to even join in the first place. That goes for the monarch too. He hasn’t taken his Scottish oath so he is not Scotlands King.

  241. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob
    Ignored
    says:
    17 May, 2024 at 10:30 am

    “When I first came to Scotland I was surprised to find I knew many more Scots words than the Edinburgh Scottish people I met.”

    Hardly surprising as Lothian still speak the purest form of the original English language anywhere in the UK, even England.

    It’s the Celtic Connection Sam!

    WTAF is Rob on about now.

    The purest form of the original English language? What is that?

  242. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    And the lunatic fringe finally puts in an appearance.

    BTW I don’t think Churchill had anything to do with sending tanks to George Square in 1919

  243. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby 10.18pm

    You really need to answer the question ‘Who is a Scot’ before the above can make any sense.

    I already have. A Scot is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.

  244. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    Rob the Ridiculous Ranter

    “Since only “true scots” according to some posters are the only folk that would be allowed to vote and the definition of a “true scot” is those who are “autochthonous” and not immigrants of any sort.

    Absolutely nobody is saying that!

    You keep asking the question ‘Who is a Scot’ but you don’t seem to know the answer. You just keep ‘franchise fannying’ about who should vote in a Independence referendum.”

    Actually that is exactly what started this discussion, several folk claiming just that. Also the conversation verred around and about what this meant for the vote in elections with some claiming it was this definition of autochthonous scot.

    The rest of the thread is simply a lot of whataboutery that I haven’t got engaged in but what keeps coming up until it descended into simply bigotry against the auld enemy.
    Now we are at simple name calling.

    The true colours of many have come out to be seen and its not pretty. My work here is done 🙂

  245. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s a shop on the Royal Mile run by ‘ethnic minority Scots’ who have just had a new sign made for their shop.

    The letters on the sign are huge double the size of the normal shop signs.

    When I first saw it I read ‘ACH AYE THE NOO’ that kind of thing along with the C U Jimmy hat offends me. I feel they are taking the piss.

    Anyway it turns out it doesn’t say ‘ACH AYE THE NOO’

    it says ‘ACH AYE THE MOO’ and there is a highland cow graphic on each side of the sign.

    The shop just sells the usual tartan tat. No idea why they would call it ‘ACH AYE THE MOO’

    Do you think they are taking the piss?

  246. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Going back to Chucky not taking an oath to Scotland.
    Therefore having no consent..

    Does that mean the yoons passports are all fcked? LOL

    Surely it ends the UK even sitting on the international stage pretending at *rules based order* ? As it’s not a united kingdom. It’s just little England.

    Wouldn’t that be a hoot.
    Nae passports…

  247. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    A true Scot can be defined as one who possesses the magnificent soul of a true Scot.

    But what does the the soul of a true Scot look like?

    Well, only a true Scot would know the answer to that question.

  248. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 10.24pm

    Andy. But I wouldn’t be depriving Scots a vote would I. You don’t get to be Scot based on residence.

    Andy Murray is English in that case.

    Yes, you would because you don’t get to define someone who wasn’t born here, but moved here and decided to make it their home “not Scottish”.

    You do get to be a Scot based on residence. Anyone insisting otherwise is a xenophobic bigot. Presumably if Andy Murray wants to be English he can be so. I never described myself as English although I lived and worked there for 25 years. I doubt Rev Stu considers himself as English either.

    My maternal grandmother (a Wallace, whose family moved from Ireland to NE England in the late 1800’s) moved to Scotland in the early 1900’s to enter domestic service, stayed, married a Scot from Perth and had three children. Are you saying she didn’t qualify as Scottish by the time she died in her 80’s Jock? If she did somehow qualify, when did it happen? After she’d been there 5 years, or 10, or 20?

  249. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Why the hell is Scotland stuck with such unbelievably stupid morons in positions of influence and power.
    Seriously, what credentials do Kate Forbes or Emma Roddick, or pretty much any other MSP have to be deciding strategy on serious engineering projects. What are the credentials of their political advisors and the civil servants they liaise between to reach decisions.
    Are these folk so completely fucking stupid that they think they actually know what they are doing. They’ve spent at least ten times more and pissed away years of time on two pieces of shit ferries than it would have cost to simply buy a couple of proven designs.

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2024/05/17/fergusons-rivetting-crisis/

    It’s the same all over. Stupid policy rollout with solar PV and ASHPs when there is an ever growing surplus of leccy generated by renewables connected through the leccy grid to pretty much every property in Scotland.
    It’s 12 weeks today since the broken village sewer was first reported. Hundreds of thousands spent on a flawed holding procedure which still allowed ongoing pollution, and the actual repair work is still to start…
    FFS, for hundreds of thousands spent so far plus most likely another hundred grand at least for the fix, we probably could have upgraded the old sewerage tank setup that pumps untreated effluent into the river, and instead installed a bio-digester system that would clean up the toxic effluent and allow it to flow into a nearby watercourse.
    There’s just no dynamism or forward thinking at all.

  250. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 10.25pm

    We wouldn’t be. They’re not Scots. They have their own nationality.

    Has Alex Salmond said any old Tom, Dick or Harry is a “Sovereign Scot”

    Alex Salmond scorns nativist bigots though. He’s already rubbished the idea of restricting the franchise.

    Alex Salmond @ Alba meeting in Edinburgh, 06/08/2022 (1hr. 26mins. 45 secs.)

    “I hear people talking about restricting franchises incidentally. I have to say I don’t like it much. Our franchise should be everybody in Scotland. Because, you know if the franchise in 2014 had been restricted to Asian Scots we’d have won in a landslide.”

    You and your xenophobic mates don’t get to tell hundreds of thousands of folk living in Scotland that they aren’t Scottish enough.

  251. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “BTW I don’t think Churchill had anything to do with sending tanks to George Square in 1919”

    But he had everything to do with famine & sending weans back to face the chambers.

    A racist prick no matter how the English revisionists try spin him. They can’t polish a turd no matter how often they try.

    A beastly man. He’ll be roasting right next to the other dross their political system churns out.

    Unelected spoon face is another one.

  252. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 10.32pm

    I very much doubt you would anyway.

    Doubt it all you like. I’ll support independence, but not based on a franchise I regard as flawed. Howling in inchoate rage that only those born here should get to vote isn’t going to encourage folk to support the cause.

    So far that’s ..

    A free for all indyref franchise
    NATO membership (even tho it’s teetering on collapse)
    EU membership (ditto)

    All the evidence shows a super majority of Scots favour EU and NATO membership. The fact you oppose them signifies nothing. Persuade people of your case, or accept that post independence you might not get all the policy outcomes you want. That’s democracy. Similarly, the current franchise was agreed by the movement generally prior to 2014.

    If you and your bigot chums want to change it, do the work and convince parties and other organisations to agree with you and make sure your chosen franchise gets adopted.

    What is your chosen franchise by the way Geri? Do you have to be born here, or is there a minimum residence criteria you have in mind…? 2 years, or 5, 10, 15 20?

    You think you’ll impose on a YES movement..

    Who made you in charge?

    Haven’t you just arrived in Scotland?

    I have the same right as anyone else Geri. I can’t impose my views on anyone, just campaign for them and support parties and organisations whose aims align with mine like any other voter. I came back to Scotland 6 years ago after 25 years in England.

    I was born in Scotland. Perhaps that means I’m not Scottish enough any more in the eyes of a’ the nativists soiling BTL comments in here? It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.

  253. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    I already have. A Scot is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.
    Andy Ellis

    Are you referring to ethnicity or nationality?

    Is Stu English or are there different rules in England.

    Is anyone allowed to be English in Scotland or does the Leslie Riddoch dictat forbid it?

    How would you define the term ‘settled here’. What length of time would be required to be considered ‘settled here’ and Scottish?

    What about being British? Is that allowed in Scotland or is everyone considered ‘Scottish’ if they live here?

    Ach aye the moo shit!

    Some may think it’s shit being Scottish and might want to retain their own Irish ethnicity for example. Is that allowed or have they got to be Scottish in Scotland.

  254. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    The Dutch have voted to ban asylum seekers. They’ve had enough of the wokery. The preferential treatment for everyone but the native man.

    If the Alba Party ask young people what matters most to them. They will say. Affordable housing.

    If you then tell them: “well son, have you heard about the English Invasion?”

    “isn’t it about time the scottish government put an end to CASH offers from ENGLISH INVADERS”

    “Yes it is. I booed God Save the Queen at Hampden. When England came to town. Glasgow voted yes!”

    “To hell with their feelings. I agree. Scotland First!”

    Everyone will vote for that. I’m telling you! It’s time for Independence. If it’s good enough for the Dutch. It’s good enough FOR SCOTS!

    25 years. If you move to Scotland. It’s within the power of the Scottish Government. Let’s pass legislation. You’ve got to swear an oath to the kingdom of Scotland. The people of Scotland are sovereign. Swear an oath English invader. Or go homeward. Tae think again! This is our country.

    Alba Party. STOP THE TIDE. Ban Cash offers for English Invaders!

    That’s how you win the election!

  255. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    My position on a franchise for a second IndyRef is often misinterpreted.
    For the record:
    * I believe we are fated by precedent to use the Local Government franchise as long as Westminster remains in ultimate control of process.
    * A “nativist” franchise only becomes feasible with international intervention. Since the UN as it is currently constituted, located in New York, is increasingly anachronistic this is up-in-the-air.
    * I have debunked Prof. Ailsa Henderson’s claim that the majority of autochthonous Scots voted Yes in 2014. And yes, I received pelters for that!
    * Those arguing against an indigenous franchise do so from a position of precarious luxury.

    On this last point, Prof. Danny Dorling (Geography, University of Oxford) maintains that the majority of autochthonous Welsh voted Remain in 2016 while the headline vote for people resident in Wales gave a 4% margin of victory for Leave.
    Prof Dorling may be correct; it is mathematically possible that the 650k English born residents in Wales (pop. 3,136k) could change a Remain result to Leave.
    For Prof Dorling to be correct, English born residents in Wales would have to have voted Leave by a margin of victory of 12% or greater. Five out of nine English regions voted Leave by this degree.

    This is not just a matter of quantity, it’s also a matter of … ahem … “quality”.
    Reform UK polls disproportionately strongly in Wales, vying for 2nd or 3rd place behind Labour.
    Between 2016 and 2021, the Welsh Senedd had 7 UKIP members (12% of seats).

    Without any expertise in Welsh politics or demographics, it’s not unreasonable to assume that the 650k English born residents of Wales are disproportionately “white settlers”, retirees from the Home-Counties, David Cameron’s much reviled “Gammons”.

  256. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    let them call us racists. Whatever the woke left middle class political elite want. It doesn’t hurt my feelings!

    We’re patriots. We want equality. And equal rights. We want the government we vote for. We want liberation and equal status in our native land.

    Not second class voting status in the United Kingdom. We’re also going to be proud of our history.

    In our museums. The Scottish artifacts are front and centre. I don’t want to see a Budda when I walk into the National Museum in Edinburgh again. I want to see a saltire. This is our country. Our heritage. OUR PRIDE. And we can also be proud of elements of the British empire. Because it was Scottish minds and Scottish hearts brining the industrial revolution to the world. Before Scots gave their lives – to abolish slavery – the west Africa squadron! Despite being enslaved in their own native land – the highland clearences for example!

    It’s time to go to the decolonisation committee. But we need to ramp up the Scotland first rhetoric. Following the Dutch example – the dutch aren’t racist. And neither are the young minds and hearts. The flowers of Scotland!

  257. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Ellis

    Apparently neither does Salmond as yer party is not gaining much ground is it? Anyone would think you were ontae a landslide the way you claim you know what everyone thinks. You don’t. We’ve not been asked. Rather inconvenient eh? Given were sovereign & all that…

    If Salmond is just going to be another peddler of the “2014 was Gold standard” pish, section 30, appeal to their better nature drone & let everyone identify as Scottish fresh out the Waverley station then he should STFU about Sovereignty, Nationhood & constitution cause he means none of it. Anybody can just flood out the Scots vote & independence on the never, ever.

    So just another gravy train looking to be permanently rooted in Westminster. Good luck selling that bullshit to anyone.

  258. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 10.32pm

    Rob. If you weren’t born in Scotland, you can’t be a native Scot. That’s into the Gender debate ideology. An apple is an orange.

    By the way there is nothing wrong with being born somewhere else. But if I moved to Canada when I was 5 and said I was native Canadian, it would just be nonsense.

    Canada is bung fu’ of people who regard themselves as native Canadians who emigrated from all over the world to be there. 14% of Canadians claim full or partial Scottish descent. Only 5% of the current Canadian population is indigenous.

    Insisting that only people who were born in a country are ever entitled to call themselves natives of that country, still less to become citizens and /or to vote there is simply nonsensical.

  259. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Ellis

    “I already have. A Scot is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.”

    No you didn’t. You posted Ruth Wisharts opinion.

    Look, franchise fanny, go bother the English about their franchise. You’ve plenty restrictions to get yer teeth into.

    You arrived here six yrs ago yet yer the fucking oracle on all things Scottish opinion & referendum. LOL.

    A village is missing it’s idiot.

  260. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @McDuff 10.50pm

    I live in England for many years but i never at any time considered myself English nor did the English, and i doubt that anyone who moved to Scotland from another country would instantly regard themselves as Scots.

    Same for me. I agree many who come to live here may not instantly or indeed ever consider themselves to be Scots, but equally many will come to regard themselves as such. I know many who have, including my own paternal grandmother.

    Doubtless many of us will know people from outside the UK who have settled here who now fully support independence, and others who identify as British.

    There are quite a few posting here who would happily deprive such people of a vote or any say in Scotland’s future. I don’t think such people are representative either of the movement or of Scots people in general.

  261. Sven
    Ignored
    says:

    A basic challenge facing those who move here and wish to become Scots (however the term is to be defined) is that there is no procedure of which they may avail themselves to become naturalised Scots after a ‘period of residency’. They may only become UK citizens.

  262. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Yes was at 45 per cent for Independence. It won’t take much to tip the balance.

    The British state fear a backlash against the English voter – and the key to unlocking the protest against the english is simple –

    We need a ban on cash offers from English invaders. Pure and simple. Let them section 35 the fuck out of that bill. It will only increase the public awareness of the need for a Scotland first!

    Scotland first in produce. Scotland food and drinks first. Everything Scottish – FIRST! That’s what this country needs to rise up and stand up. We are equal. We are not racists. We want Scotland first – like the dutch!

  263. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    The Scots are a singularly magnificent people.

    A most enlightened and innovative people.

    A gracious and kind people who are charismatic, likeable and liked by the world – most of it anyway.

    But those who reach the greatest heights of civilisation and enlightenment, as have the Scots, often become the targets of the petty who seek to drag such magnificence down and down and even further down until it reaches their own bland and miserable flavour of mediocrity.

    I’m sure envy must form a part of the coloniser’s mindset – certainly in Scotland’s case.

  264. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    ““BTW I don’t think Churchill had anything to do with sending tanks to George Square in 1919”

    But he had everything to do with famine & sending weans back to face the chambers.

    A racist prick no matter how the English revisionists try spin him. They can’t polish a turd no matter how often they try.

    A beastly man. He’ll be roasting right next to the other dross their political system churns out.”

    Back to whataboutery.
    No comment was made about the man, what he did, whether he was good or bad or whatever.
    A simply comnent was made on an inaccuracy in a simple statement and it descended immediately into whataboutery and anti-english sentiment.
    As far as I am aware the local scottish sheriff called in the army and the tanks but of course it has to be the fault of the english doesn’t it?

  265. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    There are quite a few posting here who would happily deprive such people of a vote or any say in Scotland’s future.

    Aye but there are a lot more outwith this forum. They call themselves Unionists. They don’t want anyone in Scotland to have a vote or any say in Scotland’s future.

    Your granny was lucky that she got a vote had she been born a few years earlier there wouldn’t have been an issue with her eligibility to vote.

  266. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    I’d like Scotland to be European.
    To be a Sovereign Nation in the world’s largest trading block.
    To get all the benefits that we had while being in the EU.

    Several economists agree that Brexit has cost hundreds of billions and it makes us 5% worst off.

    No one in the EU would remove our right to elections or referendums or call us Extremists.
    Imagine Scots wish to control Scotland just like 200 other countries.

    It ain’t perfect but I look at how well Ireland has done being a small nation within that group.

    Free trading, free travel and where we can expect to be respected as an equal, something never achieved with England

  267. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “Let them section 35 the fuck out of that bill”

    Does anybody actually agree that the particular bill that was killed by the only section 35 order ever used was something that the majority of Scots agreed with?
    I was happy that they killed this bill and angry it was ever pushed out in the first place in my name.
    The CASS report just put the final nails in its coffin.
    its one thing to accept and be tolerant of alternatives lifestyle choices, its another to be completely and utterly fucked up promoting them against any scientific backing or justification, or even evidence of no harm.

  268. Doroth Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    A bit of a whitewash going on about George Square , Churchill on line. I prefer the Glasgow newspapers report of the time.

    Re writing history to suit the powers that be yet again.

  269. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “As far as I am aware the local scottish sheriff called in the army and the tanks but of course it has to be the fault of the english doesn’t it?”

    Aye cause a Scottish sheriff has full authority to deploy UK tanks without the UK home office consent.

    Sit down, ya fud.

  270. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    A great great (or something) uncle married a Scottish woman in Alexandria, Egypt not Scotland, and begat loads of children, that is the limit of my Scottish connexion.
    Scotland as a stateless nation reflects my Syriac background in that «existential» condition of wanting to be free of external «meddling» but…..
    The likelihood of a Syriac/Assyrian state restored to the ancient plains of Nineveh, north Iraq, is, outside a gamer’s imagination, highly improbable.
    Scotland is far more probable a restoration. I sometime get the impression that I am more «nationalist» and at the same time «cosmopolitan» than some below the line but would not be too welcome in an iScotland because I lack the appropriate credentials.
    A pity because Scotland per se enjoys a higher status reputation abroad than its neighbour.
    Small nations should stick together.

  271. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 12.17am

    You do not let retiree incomers , RUK students or second homers vote on the very existence of our country. Its completely wrong headed.

    From the Electoral Commission website:

    Voting

    Being registered to vote at two addresses doesn’t mean you get two votes.

    If you are registered at two addresses in Scotland then you must choose one address and vote in that area when you’re voting in:

    UK Parliamentary elections
    Scottish Parliament elections
    Council elections in Scotland
    A referendum
    Voting in more than one location is a criminal offence.

    The only exception is if one of your addresses is in Scotland and the other is somewhere else in the UK, and you’re voting in a council election.

    In this case, you can vote in the council election in Scotland and in the local election in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/who-can-vote/other-registration-options/voting-and-second-homes

  272. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby 12.53 am

    Nobody has said that ‘non Scots’ cannot vote in Scotland.

    On the contrary people have said exactly this, including BTL in this place. The more extreme nativists have insisted that the franchise should be restricted to those actually born here.

    More frequently they have insisted on lengthy franchise restrictions that no other self determination vote has ever used, often suggesting periods of 15 or 20 years!

  273. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “Aye but there are a lot more outwith this forum. They call themselves Unionists. They don’t want anyone in Scotland to have a vote or any say in Scotland’s future”.

    The last SG election Indy parties polled under 50% of the total vote, including the greens. Not everyone who votes SNP would necessarily vote independence.
    Since both SNP and Greens are pretty much guaranteed a spanking at the next election I am not sure why there is a point having yet another referendum as it is pretty much guaranteed to fail, again.
    So why is this denying a vote? To me its is simply wasting everyones time and money on a pointless vote at this moment in time.
    Unless someone can show convincing evidence that there is a point in having another referendum then why bother?
    Things may change in the future but as they say, the future is another country 😉

  274. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”

    ? L.P. Hartley, The Go-Between

    Or.

    ” The past is a foreign country; they eat chips differently there”:

    Starting page of by Grace Dent’s memoir, “Hungry, a memoir for wanting more”, 2020.

    Or.

    “The Past is a Foreign Country (Il passato è una terra straniera):

    A book by Gianrico Carofiglio, 2004.

    Or.

    “The Past is a Foreign Country.”

    A South Korean film of 2008.

  275. Ruby
    Ignored
    says:

    FAO of Andy Ellis

    How would you define the term ‘settled here’. What length of time would be required to be considered ‘settled here’ and Scottish?

    Did you miss this question or are you working on it?

  276. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Xaracen 9.11am

    2% isn’t many, granted, but it didn’t happen. As I pointed out earlier, there is no alternative data available to contradict the conclusion of the Edinburgh study, just idle speculation like yours. Speculation isn’t an argument.

    Of course it’s an argument. The obvious counterpoint to the nativist claim (based on one study for which the background data is no longer publicly available) that “we wuz robbed” in 2014 because the 70/30 No/Yes vote amongst the minority of non-native Scottish voters flipped the overall result of the indyref where 52% of native born Scots vote Yes, is that you and others don’t know how secure that 52% figure is.

    It’s hardly unreasonable to speculate that had you and other nativists gotten their way, that figure could have decreased. It’s pure deflection on your part to write such concerns off as speculation.

    That’s just speculation on your part again, simply because a suitable franchise for a serious constitutional plebiscite hasn’t even been properly considered yet, let alone decided, so their status in that specific regard is currently unknown.

    You have a fondness for trying to divert attention away from the paucity of your arguments by writing things off as speculation. The default position for a future indyref’s franchise will be the precedent used in 2014. any changes to it will need to be justified, particularly if their aim is to disenfranchise a sizeable proportion of those who were included before. That’s a racing certainty, not speculation.

    Neither the UK government nor many in the movement are just going to wave nativist plans through because they’re persuaded by the argument, particularly as that argument is regarded as xenophobic and bigoted by most right thinking people.

  277. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “Aye cause a Scottish sheriff has full authority to deploy UK tanks without the UK home office consent”

    Civil power CAN call in the army in support.
    However this is all getting into details not related to the comment that it was churchill that called in the tanks.
    At that time he was not home sec but minister of munitions and was not a member of the war cabinet. There was no decision made by the ordinary cabinet to send in troops although it was discussed. It seems to have been a local decision to get troops in and tanks were never actually deployed against the crowds.
    My comment was a simple factual correction, not a discussion of the whys and wherefores.

  278. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “If you split your time between two homes, you may be able to register to vote at both addresses. For example, you might own two properties and split your time between them, or you might spend time at different family addresses.

    If you apply to register to vote from your second home, then your application will be looked at on a case by case basis. The outcome will depend on the amount of time you spend at each of your addresses.”

    More moveable goalposts. Depending on who you are, obviously.

  279. Ruby Tuesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:
    17 May, 2024 at 12:31 pm

    @Ruby 12.53 am

    Nobody has said that ‘non Scots’ cannot vote in Scotland.

    On the contrary people have said exactly this, including BTL in this place. The more extreme nativists have insisted that the franchise should be restricted to those actually born here.

    More frequently they have insisted on lengthy franchise restrictions that no other self determination vote has ever used, often suggesting periods of 15 or 20 years!

    OK you go ahead and continue to fight with these ‘extreme nativists’ and don’t forget to check under your bed at night to check none are hiding there.

    Ever thought these ‘extreme nativists’ posting here have been winding you up Andy. It’s fun to watch ‘Franchise Fanny’ go into one!

    These people who have paid us the compliment of ‘settling here’ What kind of length of time would they need to be here before they would be considered ‘settled’ and ethnically Scottish?

  280. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @David Hannah says:17 May, 2024 at 10:38 am

    “It’s time to take back control”

    I’m genuinely curious to know how banning me from selling my house to the highest bidder, on racial purity grounds, is giving me back control of anything.

    Because all of this “English are buying up stuff” comes back to one simple fact:

    The Scottish owners of the stuff being bought up are happy, probably over the moon, to take the money on offer, no questions asked.

    I suppose this is what is called “seller’s remorse”. It never really kicks in until all the luvverly loot received from the sale has been pissed up the wall.

    Still, as with everything, I’m for democracy. Put this to a vote. If you dare.

  281. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode @ 11:18

    “But what does the the soul of a true Scot look like?”

    To answer this critical question, the literature points us firmly in the direction o oor ain braw Scots mither-tongue langage, which:

    “is the medium with which the condition of the human soul is painted” (Maser)

    “is for the guid o your soul” (MacDiarmid)

    “is a mirror of Scotland’s soul” (Kay)

    and which, also:

    “gives us our national consciousness” (Fanon)

    “is one of the factors that serves most effectively to define and unite a nation” (Scots-English Dictionary)

    “is a crucial and integral part of Scottish culture and identity” (Open University)

    “is at the core of (oor ain naitional) identity” (Kay)

    “is the means by which (we) can claim diversity and define (our) identity” (Shaw)

    and, it is oor ain braw Scots langage that:

    “completes the whole” (Serota Cote)

    In ither wirds, withoot oor ain braw Scots langage, us Scots are naething, nocht, hee-haw.

  282. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “Of course it’s an argument”

    Not a logical argument. Speculation cannot make a logical argument. A rhetorical argument, possibly. But rhetoric proves nothing, it merely attempts to persuade.

  283. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Ellis

    “More frequently they have insisted on lengthy franchise restrictions that no other self determination vote has ever used, often suggesting periods of 15 or 20 years!”

    Did you forget about England? They use it.

  284. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Alf Baird @ 1:06pm

    You are indeed a true Scot, Alf.

    A perfect answer to my question.

  285. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “In ither wirds, withoot oor ain braw Scots langage, us Scots are naething, nocht, hee-haw.”

    That a point I was tryying to make some posts ago, there are at least three current seperate languanges that could be classed classed as the real “scots” tnngue plus a couple more dialects,

    gaelic, Auld Scots and English plus Doric and a couple of other major dialects (I hestitate to include glaswegian)
    I have no affinity to Gaelic, I come from an auld scots area and lothian is a traditional English area.
    To answer the previous question about Lothian, Lothian area has the purest form of original engkish languange in the UK, it is the closest on pronounciation and dialiect to the original english introduced to the UK. This is not an insult but proven linguistical fact that I admit from a west scotland pouint of view quite entertaining.
    It is closer to original english than even the english where it has been mixed more with french and Danish amonsgt others.

    But back to the point, which is the scosts languange? Well it epends on what part of the country you hail from!

  286. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Alf

    Aye – that’ll explain why colonisers always target the language.

  287. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    “English are buying up stuff”

    Its not just the English, although Mull and Skye are a bit of an exception.
    The 3 house terraced block where I have my second home on the northern isles is one third Local, and two thirds Scots from the mainland, including me. One guy across the road is english but is renting. Hardly the major takeover by the sassenachs
    One of the places is so small it is only good enough for a singleton or a short visit, you couldn’t live there full time as a couple or more and is owned and used by a couple from Fife.
    Mine was empty for a long time and was almost uninhabitable, its been taking months and loads of money to get in habitable and nobody bought it when it was up for sale for about a year because of the work needed.
    While there is a housing shortage in a great deal of places depopulation is the result if newcomers are banned.

  288. sam
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andy Ellis

    “Neither the UK government nor many in the movement are just going to wave nativist plans [for a referendum] through…”

    What’s the UK gubmint got to do with it?

    You think it’s another sec30 job?

    If not a sec30, in what circumstances do you think there will be a referendum?

    what do you think of Prof McCorquodale’s route map to independence?

  289. dasBlimp
    Ignored
    says:

    James has a friend? Whoda thunk it.

  290. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Not the huge private estates, no?
    Or land tied up to anonymous foreign owners registered to UK tax havens?

    Depopulation is the fault of our colonial masters. It never went away.

    Scotland has no control or say on immigration either.

    Are you sure you were around to vote in 2014 cause you ain’t fooling anyone.

    Cause everything you bring up dates back to that era & already been debunked so why would you suddenly start up with the broken records? Update yer arguements FFS.

  291. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    Whataboutery again?

    What have large private estates got to do with the housing shortage?

    I haven’t really raised any new or old arguments but simply responded to those already raised above.

    Who am I trying to fool and how? This puzzles me 🙂

  292. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    My Great ,Great Grandfather on my fathers side came to Scotland in 1835 from Ireland. I have an Irish name, but my family name has been in Scotland for nearly 200 years. I have closer ties to Ireland on my mothers grandparents side. I also have Grants in my family. So essentially I am of mixed ancestry. But I would consider myself only Scottish , as that’s the only country I know.

    I would identify a Scot as born here, moved here since childhood and schooled here. I do not consider residency as a prerequisite of national identity. Because culturally an adult moving to another country carries with them their own national identity. That never leaves you, nor should it.

    So my franchise would be a nuanced version of the above.

  293. The Flying Iron of Doom
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri says:
    17 May, 2024 at 9:53 am

    “who IS a a scot?”

    Anyone who has lived here 20 yrs prior to 1978.

    So are those of us who were born after 1978 going to be deprived of the right to vote? Well that’s my day ruined then. Thanks for that 🙂

  294. James
    Ignored
    says:

    Aw, Das Blimp, did I annoy you?

    Feeling left out?

    Don’t worry you’ll always be my bestie.

  295. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby 11.37 am

    Are you referring to ethnicity or nationality?

    I’m saying that plenty of Scots are not “ethnically” Scottish. being a citizen of a (hopefully) independent Scottish republic with be a nationality, whether your family has been here from time immemorial, or moved here from Ireland or fled Russian pogroms in the 19th century, or came from the Caribbean, Africa or South Asia in more recent times.

    Is Stu English or are there different rules in England.

    I wouldn’t venture to speak for Rev Stu, but presumably he or anyone who has lived in England for the length of time he has could consider themselves English. I doubt he does, anymore than I did when I lived there. There again I’ve never really considered myself British, even if that’s what my passport says.

    Doubtless post indy people who don’t want to become Scottish citizens will simply not take up the offer and will then have to abide by whatever residence criteria a newly independent Scotland decides will apply to them.

    Is anyone allowed to be English in Scotland or does the Leslie Riddoch dictat forbid it?

    You’ll have to explain what the Leslet Riddoch diktat is, and what it’s relevance (if any) is to the current discussion.

    How would you define the term ‘settled here’. What length of time would be required to be considered ‘settled here’ and Scottish?

    Anyone who is ordinarily resident here, pays taxes here, is on the electoral roll: that kind of thing. At present there is no time period because until we’re independent we don’t set our own citizenship or residence criteria.

    If someone is particularly keen to move from abroad to Scotland, or from elsewhere in the UK to Scotland, they should be welcome. Telling them they’re not welcome unless they support independence, or agree with us on a particular range of issues, is not a good look.

    What about being British? Is that allowed in Scotland or is everyone considered ‘Scottish’ if they live here?

    Nobody stopping people who elect not to take Scottish citizenship post independence staying here. From memory that’s not what the White Paper said anyway. They might not like the fact that they’d then not have the same rights as all those who elect to become citizens however, as they’d become British people living in Scotland, just like those now living in Spain or America or anywhere else.

    The presumption of the 2012-14 campaign was that anyone living here would be considered Scottish by default if they wanted to become citizens, but nobody is going to be forcing them. I don’t see an issue with that.

  296. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    Are you referring to ethnicity or nationality?

    I’m saying that plenty of Scots are not “ethnically” Scottish. being a citizen of a (hopefully) independent Scottish republic with be a nationality, whether your family has been here from time immemorial, or moved here from Ireland or fled Tsarist pogroms in the 19th century, or came from the Caribbean, Africa or South Asia in more recent times.

    Is Stu English or are there different rules in England.

    I wouldn’t venture to speak for Rev Stu, but presumably he or anyone who has lived in England for the length of time he has could consider themselves English. I doubt he does, anymore than I did when I lived there. There again I’ve never really considered myself British, even if that’s what my passport says.

    Doubtless post indy people who don’t want to become Scottish citizens will simply not take up the offer and will then have to abide by whatever residence criteria a newly independent Scotland decides will apply to them.

    Is anyone allowed to be English in Scotland or does the Leslie Riddoch dictat forbid it?

    You’ll have to explain what the Lesley Riddoch diktat is, and what it’s relevance (if any) is to the current discussion.

    How would you define the term ‘settled here’. What length of time would be required to be considered ‘settled here’ and Scottish?

    Anyone who is ordinarily resident here, pays taxes here, is on the electoral roll: that kind of thing. At present there is no time period because until we’re independent we don’t set our own citizenship or residence criteria.

    If someone is particularly keen to move from abroad to Scotland, or from elsewhere in the UK to Scotland, they should be welcome. Telling them they’re not welcome unless they support independence, or agree with us on a particular range of issues, is not a good look.

    What about being British? Is that allowed in Scotland or is everyone considered ‘Scottish’ if they live here?

    Nobody stopping people who elect not to take Scottish citizenship post independence staying here. From memory that’s not what the White Paper said anyway. They might not like the fact that they’d then not have the same rights as all those who elect to become citizens however, as they’d become British people living in Scotland, just like those now living in Spain or America or anywhere else.

    The presumption of the 2012-14 campaign was that anyone living here would be considered Scottish by default if they wanted to become citizens, but nobody is going to be forcing them. I don’t see an issue with that.

  297. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone can come from anywhere to Scotland. But they don’t have a right to vote on Scotlands future, just for moving here. That doesn’t mean they aren’t welcome. It’s simply because they are not Scottish , and the referendum is about Scotland’s future. Its not party politics, its our very right to exist as a people. Outsiders do not get to veto what Scots vote for. Which they did in 2014.

  298. twathater
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri just to correct a small issue, the franchise fanny didn’t just say he would VOTE against independence but that he would ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST independence if he didn’t get his way,I also think he said he would squeem and squeem if his daughter, wife and in laws didn’t get a vote, so THAT IMO shows what kind of indy supporter he is

    I see he has a NEW FRIEND who has joined the franchise fanny brigade, who thinks Scots nationality should be given away like sweeties,they must be an absolute hoot at Andy’s dinner parties

  299. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t think they’ll be another indyref vote that time has past, instead the voters will be told via the (VEM) Voters Empowerment Mechanism, that if they vote for certain candidates of certain parties/party that they are also voting for independence, which translates to a majority of MSPs so folk will know what they are voting for prior to an election.

    For me a constitutional vote should be restricted to folk born in Scotland and who reside in the country.

  300. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    The French are sending in the troops to crush the indigenous people of New Caledonia (Kanaks) who wants independence.

    There’s a warning here for us and we need to heed it.

    “France has deployed new troops to New Caledonia and granted its forces more authority to crush unrest in the independence-seeking Pacific archipelago near Australia.

    Pro-independence, largely Indigenous protests against a French plan to impose new voting rules on the territory have spiraled into the deadliest protests since the 1980s.

    Three nights of clashes have left five dead and hundreds wounded, prompting French authorities to impose a state of emergency Thursday.

    They also dispatched 500 additional troops to support 1,800 forces already deployed to the region.

    According to a statement by the high commission, which represents the French state in New Caledonia, house searches will be carried out “in the coming hours”.

    Since the unrest began, more than 200 protesters have been arrested.

    The high commission said France is establishing an “air bridge” to rapidly move in troop reinforcements.

    In Paris, French President Emmanuel Macron offered to hold talks Thursday with New Caledonian lawmakers and called for a resumption of political dialogue.

    The predominantly indigenous population, advocating for independence, is expressing their opposition to a French initiative that aims to implement new voting regulations.

    The new bill will grant voting rights to French residents in provincial elections, who have resided there for a decade under the proposed legislation, which pro-independence leaders fear would dilute the Kanak vote.”

  301. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 11.46 am

    Apparently neither does Salmond as yer party is not gaining much ground is it? Anyone would think you were ontae a landslide the way you claim you know what everyone thinks. You don’t. We’ve not been asked. Rather inconvenient eh? Given were sovereign & all that…

    The fact Alba hasn’t made any headway up to now is neither here nor there. Who knows what will happen in 2026? I doubt they’ll make much progress for WM elections, but who cares…they’re irrelevant anyway. I’ve never claimed to know how everyone things, simply stating the well established facts from polling evidence. The fact the usual suspects don’t accept polling evidence – unless it agrees with their bigoted world view – tells us all we need to know.

    Being sovereign Scots isn’t a short cut to independence unless you want to end up like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without the sun, and with no equivalent of Turkey to help you out.

    If Salmond is just going to be another peddler of the “2014 was Gold standard” pish, section 30, appeal to their better nature drone & let everyone identify as Scottish fresh out the Waverley station then he should STFU about Sovereignty, Nationhood & constitution cause he means none of it. Anybody can just flood out the Scots vote & independence on the never, ever.

    Given the choice between Salmond and a bunch of bigoted xenophobes pushing their “magic beans for indy” bullshit, it’s not hard to discern who is most likely to be listened to. All you and your nativist mates have to do is show us the money Geri…..We’ll wait, and not hold our breath.

    If Scots are too lilly livered to constrict a majority for independence out of an electorate which is > 80% native born Scots plus the pro-indy section of New Scots, we don’t deserve independence and should probably just accept that too many slaves revere their chains.

  302. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rob 12.18 pm

    I was happy that they killed this bill and angry it was ever pushed out in the first place in my name.

    Hear, hear!

  303. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    No won by 55% to 45%. That stopped independence. Yet some on here think we need to persuade 60 to 70% of native Scots to cancel out the incomers 17% veto.

    That’s absolute unadulterated anti democratic baloney. We only need 51% to get independence, that’s democracy. If Scots vote in the majority yes by 1%. Then get cancelled out by 10% incomer veto votes. Then that’s not what Scots voted for. Scots voted yes in 2014, this was overturned by 10% incomer votes.

    It’s why the referendum is a dead end. We won’t get independence when it can be vetoed by 17% of migrants. That number is growing year by year. Scottish democracy is being swept away.

    The only way independence will happen is by electing a majority government based on independence, and them declaring independence. With a lower turnout, we may just make it over the line. With a referendum turnout of 90% we will never win.

  304. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    twathater
    says:

    I see he has a NEW FRIEND who has joined the franchise fanny brigade, who thinks Scots nationality should be given away like sweeties,they must be an absolute hoot at Andy’s dinner parties

    Franchise Fanny is a brilliant nick-name. Very well done to Gerry for that one.

    She definitely has a way with words that Geri!

    Franchise Fanny wasn’t talking about nationality he was referring to ethnicity. Come to Scotland and by magic you are transformed/transitioned/transmogrified into a Scot.

    I’m wondering if there might be an opportunity to give Scottish lessons. How to be Scottish for Dummies.

    A lot of them might need to learn how to pronounce loch properly and how to use the word cunt a lot.

    You’ll never pass as Scottish if talk about the ‘Bonnie bonnie banks of Lock Lomond’.

  305. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Turabdin 12.22 pm

    I sometime get the impression that I am more «nationalist» and at the same time «cosmopolitan» than some below the line but would not be too welcome in an iScotland because I lack the appropriate credentials.

    From what I’ve seen of your contributions BTL here Turabdin, I’d happily trade you for many of the bigoted xenophobes polluting the comments in this place and ship them off to the plains of Nineveh.

    Thankfully the nativists only represent the voluble barrel scrapings of our nation.

  306. Rob
    Ignored
    says:

    What sort of tinfoil hat wearers think that there is a rush north by english carpetbaggers to vote against indy?
    I didn’t see buses and trains full of them heading north.
    Remember the numbers that there would have to be to make a difference to the vote, did you see them all, I didn’t!

  307. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rob 12.31 pm

    You personally may not agree that holding a referendum is right, either ever or just right now, but the fact remains that polls consistently show that a supermajority of Scots (ergo including a % of unionists) agree that only Holyrood should have any say in when and how often Scots have a referendum.

    Insisting otherwise is profoundly undemocratic and long term can only be corrosive to the unionist cause, particularly when Scots under 55 are overwhelmingly pro independence.

    You can’t defend ignoring repeated mandates for holding a referendum. Doing so will simply lead the movement to switch to plebiscitary elections, which will in some respects be easier: if every single vote at Westminster and Holyrood becomes plebiscitary, then it’s easier for us.

    Remember, we only have to win once: yoons have to win every time.

  308. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 1.11 pm

    Did you forget about England? They use it.

    When has England had a referendum to become independent?

  309. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rob 12.18 pm

    I was happy that they killed this bill and angry it was ever pushed out in the first place in my name.

    Here’s a thought for you Rob and you too Fanny.

    The Gender Recognition Reform Bill couldn’t have been pushed anywhere without the Gender Recognition Act 2004. That’s a UK law which states people can change sex if they believe they were born in the wrong body.

    What problem do you have with the GRRB that you don’t have with the GRA 2004.

    What would be wrong with children being taught about UK Law which states that people can change sex if they believe they were born in the wrong body.

    Children need to know that the person they think is a woman might be a man.

    That UK law states it’s not only acceptable that a man pretends to be a woman it’s also a requirement if they wish to change sex.

    They need to be alert to transgenderism even at 8 years of age.

    Look what happened to the innocent child who took a lift from ‘the trans butcher’ thinking he was a woman.

  310. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy as long as you are happy never getting independence, good luck to you and your open to all comers franchise.

    You do realise that countries are formed on the basis of shared culture, nationality and history. But that’s scary nativist talk isn’t it!

  311. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Sam 2.07 pm

    It has something to do with both governments because a wildcat vote which hasn’t been agreed by both parties is pointless: it won’t attract international recognition. Holding such a referendum might be a first step in the face of a British nationalist refusal to come to reasonable terms, or to honour the 2014 Edinburgh Agreement precedent, but it would entail a second step to consolidate it…..so ultimately, what is the point?

    Therefore, if we can’t guarantee another referendum along the lines of 2014, the most plausible alternative is plebiscitary elections.

    I’m not a fan of plans to try and short circuit the system by calling conventions or assemblies, because without clear evidence of overwhelming popular support to use such a novel and unprecedented route, it will be very difficult to gain international recognition.

    It’s not impossible, but just problematic: the internationals community will only accept a Scottish declaration which amounts to UDI in exceptional circumstances, and will expect all other means to have been tried first.

    That’s why it’s important to show the process of referendum and plebiscitary elections has been tried, and failed due to bad faith on the part of the British nationalist establishment.

  312. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    When has England had a referendum to become independent?

    2016?

  313. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis

    Not a good idea to get too cosy with Turabdin you could be accused of trying to groom a minor.

    The lad is only 15 newly arrived from Iraq.

    Formerly know as OttomanBoy.

  314. ROB
    Ignored
    says:

    I have always said, at this time or similar, when saying I don’t believe there is current support for another referendum.
    I still think this and unless there is more overt support then why call another.
    There has been dropping public support in the real world for another, probably because large numbers see it being settled for the moment in 2014 or more recently by the complete embarrassment the SP has been in recent years.
    I have seen little enthusiasm in anyone I know for another and in most circles it is a taboo subject due the the aggro caused last time, at least in the highlands.

  315. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 3.09pm

    So your “nuanced franchise” would exclude anyone who moved to Scotland after school age, so nobody over 18? So someone born in Scotland who then moved away would in your eyes qualify as a Scot and be included as part of both the “ethnos” and the “demos”, but someone who moved to Scotland at 18, worked here all their life, paid taxes, contributed positively to society….maybe even supported independence…is somehow excluded.

    Do you realise how batshit insane that sounds to any reasonable person?

  316. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Flying Iron 3.59pm

    Geri says:
    17 May, 2024 at 9:53 am

    “who IS a a scot?”

    Anyone who has lived here 20 yrs prior to 1978.

    So are those of us who were born after 1978 going to be deprived of the right to vote? Well that’s my day ruined then. Thanks for that ?

    Like I said, these xenophobic bigots are batshit insane. They’re a clear and present danger to the movement and any hope of persuading the vital swing voters we need to switch to supporting independence.

  317. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @RoS 6.10pm

    For me a constitutional vote should be restricted to folk born in Scotland and who reside in the country.

    Will never happen in a thousand years. The movement wouldn’t accept such xenophobic bigotry and the international community wouldn’t accept that franchise.

    Those behind the Voter Empowerment Mechanism haven’t advocated for your frnachise either as far as I’m aware. If they have or do it would be the end of their scheme.

  318. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 7.11pm

    We don’t need 51%, we need 50% +1 technically. You and your bigot mates don’t get to exclude those you regard as mudbloods, nor would sucha franchise be accepted as valid by the international community.

    Luckily you and the wee coterie of xenophobes in here have vanishingly little chance of ever seeing your proposal adopted.

    It’s eminently possible to construct a pro indy majority from the existing franchise and even easier via plebiscitary elections, which are in any case the most likely alternative at present.

    Your route will kick indy in to the long grass and we’ll be luck if our grandkids see it realised.

  319. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Franchise fanny

    “I doubt they’ll make much progress for WM elections, but who cares…they’re irrelevant anyway. ”

    Shows how much you know. The UK parliament is the seat of power. You know, the one established by the treaty of Union.

    Not a diddy wee glorified county council outpost with zero authority to take a shit unaided.

    Oh deary, whatever will the “international community” think when you rock up with some votes & some list seats? LOL!!

    “I’ve never claimed to know how everyone things, simply stating the well established facts from polling evidence. The fact the usual suspects don’t accept polling evidence – unless it agrees with their bigoted world view – tells us all we need to know.”

    Yougov polls aren’t Scots opinions. I meant actually ask Scots opinions officially, on a manner of topics, through referendum or household census. A sample of 1,000 ppl isn’t Scotlands opinion. It’s a 1,000 ppl who chose to answer with very little description.

    For example, are ppl aware NATO has its own unelected political system? That it only works for American interests, that it’s weapons are fcked & they all can’t agree? What happens when two NATO countries fall out between themselves & go to war? Or did they just see the fluffy side of an instant back up plan & decide to pay into a protection racket that has no protection at all?

    “Being sovereign Scots isn’t a short cut to independence unless you want to end up like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without the sun, and with no equivalent of Turkey to help you out.”

    Don’t be stupid. All that’s needed is the treaty terminated. Fcks sake, even during Brexit there were endless tories lining up to confirm there wasn’t a treaty in the whole wide world that needed the other sides permission to end it.

    Scotlands treaty is exactly the same – eejits like you try to make shit sound more complicated than it needs because you are after some fucking utopia where England waves us off after a jolly good going away party & everyone lived happily ever after. That’s not going to happen. There is a silver bullet. Use the mandate. ONLY ONE is needed. Or terminate the treaty & go to the ICJ. Simple.

    Grow a set. Scotland has already voted YES & there has been at least six mandates for indy so do shut up about convincing more. It wouldn’t fcking matter if it was 100%. Cowards like you would still shite yerself a civil war would break out so we’d better come up with yet another long winded plan of nonsense..

    The international lawyer, Ralph Wilde, gave a clear & succinct breakdown of international law concerning self determination. Nowhere, in addressing the ICJ, did he mention permission from the other side – he stated the exact opposite. It’s an unlawful restriction they’ve no authority to impose. It’s also unlawful to impose conditions.

    Scotland is a sovereign nation, in a treaty of union, it needs no % or permission to exit out of its contract. It can legally terminate it at any time. Let them take us to court. A proper international court. Not one Blair hobbled together that spouted a load of shite IRRELEVANT to Scotland.

    In fact, hasn’t Chucky already terminated it by not taking his oaths to Scotland? A condition of the treaty & of parliament even existing as a GB parliament.

  320. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy if you move away from Scotland. You are still a Scot, but you don’t get a vote if you don’t live in Scotland. I am not sure you thought that through.

    As for someone moving to Scotland at 18. No they are not Scottish, and don’t get to vote as a Scot. That’s tough, that’s life suck it up.

  321. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy doesn’t understand what sovereignty is. And he thinks you can buy your nationality by paying enough taxes.

    Let’s take the richest residents in Scotland . Our top Premier league footballers. They pay more tax than any other group of individuals. Yet 60% of them are from outwith Scotland.

    Some have been here 6 months some 6 years. As residents they would qualify to vote on Scotland’s independence, under Andy’s rules. So Hart, Tavernier, Kyogo could all vote. Millionaire foreign footballers voting on our future. Hey but why not , cause they pay loads of money into Scotland. You can buy your nationality.

  322. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 8.38pm

    Of course I thought it through. I didn’t get a vote in #indyref1 because I was in England. I accepted that as absolutely right and argued vociferously at the time against Scots yoons who claimed Scots born people abroad shoukd be allowed to vote.

    There are estimated to be 800,000 Scots in the rest of the UK who would qualify for Scots citizenship. 5 will get you 10 the majority are pro-union. Of course, if you had the courage of your bigoted ideology you’d be arguing for such ethnic Scots to be given the vote, but you wouldn’t do it because it wouldn’t fit your xenophobic agenda.

    Nobody sane is going to accept the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of Scots.

  323. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Franchise Fanny thinks he’s sane LMAO!

    Ruby

    Correct. It was their independence referendum. They “allowed” us to vote on a UK referendum. Incomers weren’t allowed.

    Or on General Elections & soon to be Local elections.

    15 yes + & only if you ask them nicely.

    If they ever had a ref to leave Scotland you can bet yer house the franchise would be even tighter.

    Franchise Fanny would probably agree that was perfectly acceptable with Genocide John shouting about refugees being excluded too & anyone that even looked a bit Muslim.

  324. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 8.49pm

    And your point is caller? Why would we be concerned at a handful of high net worth individuals choosing to stay here, particularly if they gave the national team a leg up.

    Are you even Scottish at all…?! 🙂

    Virtually any country will welcome immigrants with loads of dosh. Malta will sell you a passport for 1.2 million Euros. I doubt many top flight footballers would find that a stretch.

  325. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Do you read anything properly Andy. Who isn’t welcoming them?

    I said they shouldn’t get to vote on Scotlands future. I was using them as an example of taxpayers, who you claim deserve a vote!

    How do foreign players help our national team, they don’t play for Scotland?

  326. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock

    “Andy doesn’t understand what sovereignty is.”

    Of course he doesn’t. He thinks Scots are a lowly bunch of peasants not fit to lace England’s boots.

    He doesn’t see Scots as Sovereign & he doesn’t see Scotland as an equal partner to the Act of Union.

    Without Scotland there is no union. No UK. No UK membership of ANYWHERE.

    He invents bullshit. Criteria we must meet. Hoops to jump through. Percentages to reach for. Appease our masters. Invite the whole world to vote on our constitution & even invent fictitious masters called the “international community”. Scotland is to dance for Indy like we’re some court jester instead of an equal partner.

    Back six years so missed the last vote but is now an oracle on everything Scottish independence & how we should conduct ourselves while he plays PC Plod with the YES Movement making sure everyone is complying to his rules.

    He doesn’t even take into account all those No voters who later claimed they instantly regretted it. Or others that were furious there was never going to be Devo max after all or the countless others angry at dodgy Dave’s acceptance speech putting the boot in or all those who thought they were voting no to stay in the EU.

    No – his arrogant narcissism only allows him to believe we were well short & it’s NEVER changed cause 1,000 ppl out of 6 million said so – so we must try harder. Piss off.

    When he starts criticising the English franchise let me know. He isn’t even too concerned they don’t have a devolved parliament either – funny that. He conveniently drops them from his lists. Very telling.

  327. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Franchise Fanny says

    I’m saying that plenty of Scots are not “ethnically” Scottish.

    Oh aye?

    This is surreal it reminds me of the Magrite painting
    “Ceci n’est pas une pipe’

    Plenty of Scots are not Scots.
    Plenty of English people are not English.
    Plenty of Irish are not Irish
    Plenty of Welsh people are not Welsh.
    Plenty of Geordies are not Geordies
    Plenty of Muslims are not Muslims

    Ach I suppose we’ll need to get used to this type of surrealism what with all the self-id and having to accept that

    Plenty of women aren’t women.

  328. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ruby 7.10am

    It’s not a difficult concept for most people to get their heads around Ruby. Perhaps being a xenophobe and a bigot has some impact on cognitive function?

    It’s the nativists who are seeking to separate the sheep from the goats on the basis of blood and soil nationalism. Of course they like to present it as something eminently reasonable to exclude Johnny come lately’s, and assert confidently on zero evidence that there’s a huge problem with students and second home owners swamping native born Scots.

    They’re the ones who opened this pandora’s box of ethno-nationalism that would gladden the heart of the likes of Farage, Reform UK and even the BNP.

    Racists are so predictable.

  329. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 10.55pm

    Like so many of the other bigots and xenophobes you’re the one that appears to have reading difficulties Jock. Sadly it’s often the case that those with such views come from amongst those with lower education standards or some cognitive impairment, although in the case of some of course it will just be because their racist pieces of work.

    Telling people they’re welcome, but then excluding them from the “demos” on the basis they weren’t born here, and thus aren’t Scottish at all, despite having lived here all their lives or for some random number of years that a bunch of bigots have pulled out of the air, isn’t welcoming.

    You’re the one who introduced the canard of footballers playing here, not me. Again you lack the wit to admit that a handful of super rich individuals (who are hardly likely to stay here forever and seek permanent residence or citizenship anyway) are going to have zero impact on outcomes…..so why bring it up?

    Like all the other closet racists you just can’t help yourself. You don’t really believe we can win without moving the goalposts. You place all your faith on the results of a single Edinburgh University study, whose results can’t now be analysed as the data tables aren’t available.

    Despite the fact the 52% of native Scots it found voting Yes may not actually be real as reputably conducted polling always warns of a 3% margin of error. So even you hare brained scheme wouldn’t necessarily have resulted in an actual majority, because the “real” number might have been 49% . What a riddy that’d be, eh?

  330. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Geri 11.27

    So as well as being a bigoted xenophobe it’s now quite clear that you’re reading and comprehension is just not that good?

    Of course he doesn’t. He thinks Scots are a lowly bunch of peasants not fit to lace England’s boots.

    Not at all: I just object to those who are regressive blood and soil nationalists and bigoted xenophobes. A couple in here are just out and out racists. They’re not peasants, just scum.

    He doesn’t see Scots as Sovereign & he doesn’t see Scotland as an equal partner to the Act of Union.

    I do see Scots as sovereign. The union never was a marriage of equals and isn’t today. The Acts of Union and Claim of Right are not a shortcut to independence: we have to put in the work and convince a majority of Scots – including those not born here – to vote for it.

    Without Scotland there is no union. No UK. No UK membership of ANYWHERE.

    Ignorant bullshit. Go and educate yourself your doltish crank. Rump UK – whatever it choses to call itself – will be the continuator state in the event of Scottish independence. It’s what happened when the USSR and Yugoslavia broke up: the largest unit remaining carried on with the memberships of international organisations and the new independent states joined in their own right as new members.

  331. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “Telling people they’re welcome, but then excluding them from the “demos” on the basis they weren’t born here, and thus aren’t Scottish at all, despite having lived here all their lives or for some random number of years that a bunch of bigots have pulled out of the air, isn’t welcoming.”

    Big Jock can answer for himself but do fuck off.

    Nowhere has anyone said that.

    They’re welcome to vote here on the shit that affects their lives = General election & Local elections.

    They’re welcome to support our endeavours to return Scotland to an independent nation.

    But on the constitutional question ONLY – restrictions must be made unless they have lived here for at least 15/20 yrs.

    Most ppl would be perfectly happy with that. It’s normal. It’s only colonisers who aren’t.

    I’d never dream of emigrating & then instantly set about demanding my rights to vote on that country’s constitution. Have you fucking heard yourself? It’s YOU that’s stoking bigotry.

    For example – fck off back to England & inform the English that of course the ppl fresh off a dingy should INSTANTLY vote on English constitutional matters & that of course they should INSTANTLY set about taking over that country’s “natives” through elections – see how long yer face remains in place. Not long I’d bet.

    But you’d be perfectly happy for them to retain their restrictions cause they’re the mighty, all powerful English in your eyes. It just Scots & Scotland you have a problem with & a deep seated loathing of us evidenced by yer derogatory rants. You should get yerself checked out. If you are genuinely Scottish you have a dose of the cringe real bad.

  332. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “The union never was a marriage of equals and isn’t today”

    That’s where you are wrong. The claim of right was conditional before the union was even enacted.
    Point to the bit that says England is superior?

    “Ignorant bullshit. Go and educate yourself your doltish crank. Rump UK – whatever it choses to call itself – will be the continuator state in the event of Scottish independence. It’s what happened when the USSR and Yugoslavia broke up: the largest unit remaining carried on with the memberships of international organisations and the new independent states joined in their own right as new members.”

    Yoon bullshit. Scotland is a sovereign nation. It was independent before & will be again. Territory intact. Sovereignty intact. Never relinquished.

    There would be NO parliament of GB. There would be no UK sitting on various international bodies. Even the Supreme court highlighted that fact. Indyref highlighted that fact too. The “rump” that’s left would have to reapply under its new status of little England. It’s standing greatly diminished.

    & Good luck with that. Over 80 former colony’s now sit on those organisations where the mere mention of colonisers curl their toes.

    We don’t have to convince any more voters. The UK government is well aware it’s well over tipping point & why they won’t be in any rush to ever call another one.

    It’s just yer ever changing elastic tape measure to delay independence while you await all yer wee chums arriving here to fuck up the vote.

  333. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 8.49am

    But on the constitutional question ONLY – restrictions must be made unless they have lived here for at least 15/20 yrs.

    What other countries have imposed such criteria for voting in self determination referendums Geri? And when you find out the answer is none, why will it be necessary – uniquely – for Scotland to do so to gain it’s independence?

    If, as is more likely, you’re doing that thing moonhowling nativist bigots always do of conflating the criteria for voting in constiutional votes or elections in ALREADY independent countries, can you point me to any other countries who insist on at least 15-20 years qualification for full rights of citizenship?

    Of course, the reason you wont be able to come up with any examples is that most of the people in other countries aren’t xenophobic bigots like the usual suspects polluting BTL discourse here.

    Most people wouldn’t be happy with what you’re proposing: you speak for a tiny crank minority of regressive ethno nationalists.

  334. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Yawn… same old Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger…

    Immigration is a power reserved to London Rule, and that is an issue because Scotland has no ability to control an immigration policy for “NuScots” that best serves oor needs.
    It is simply ridiculous to expect Scotland to flourish and prosper without re-gaining control of all major powers currently reserved to Westminster.

  335. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “…why will it be necessary – uniquely – for Scotland to do so to gain it’s independence?”

    Because Scotland is caught in a uniquely convoluted and treacherous trap.

    The faux union with England, a ‘union’ which has led to the internal colonisation of the Scots through various nefarious criminal actions and activities on the part of England, has forced the Scots to adopt a more nationalistic attitude in their struggle to liberate themselves from England’s oppressive colonial rule.

    The Scots cannot afford to play by the rules of their captor’s corrupt and rigged game if they hope to have any chance of regaining their independence.

    If anyone is looking for someone to blame if the Scots adopt a justified nationalist rhetoric in their justified struggle to save themselves and their nation from extinction – blame England.

  336. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 7:47 am

    “Racists are so predictable.”

    Yes indeed, and here we might remember that colonialism ‘is hateful racism’ as well as ‘economic plunder’ (Cesaire). And this racism is what Scottish people are trying to be free from. The usurper seeks to prevent this of course.

    The colonized people thus ‘only become nationalists in order to free themselves’ (Fanon) from oppression. And from whom, other than the colonizer (Memmi)? Which is why liberation is a matter ‘only for the colonized group’.

  337. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    “Will never happen in a thousand years. The movement wouldn’t accept such xenophobic bigotry and the international community wouldn’t accept that franchise.”

    Its not xenophobic bigotry other countries restrict their constitutional franchise are they xenophobes and bigots? and they ARE the international community.

  338. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Northcode 10.07am

    There’s nobody to blame but ourselves I’m afraid. No other country which has become independent recently possessed the advantages that Scotland does, and yet even with those advantages – even by the admission of the usual suspects in here – the best that could be achieved was 52% of native Scots voting in favour, and 15% not even bothering to turnout.

    The “we wuz robbed” or “puir us, the games rigged against us!” schtick is a cop out.

    Nobody else cares about your purported “uniquely convoluted and treacherous trap”. They see it for what it is: a lack of political courage on the part of too many Scots, and a failure to make the case that the cost benefit analysis of risking independence comes down in favour of taking the risk, rather than remaining shackled to the British nationalist state.

    We’re not captives, sadly there are just too few who have the balls to put an “X” on a ballot paper.

  339. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Franchise Fanny seems oblivious that there are international laws that protect a ppl & their Nation from being consumed by its neighbour & especially one escaping colonial rule.

    But then that eejit doesn’t believe we’re even colonised at all. We simply must try harder to escape their ever changing rules. International laws apply to the whole wide world – but not you Scotland, you’re “different” so you can sit down.

    Yer oil is “different” yer referendum rules are “different” Criteria is “different” Even yer right to self determination is to be “different” along with mandates – they’re different too…. just because #AskAndy says so & it’d be nice for all incomers

    I wonder what #AskAndy would suggest when 80% of Scots vote YES in a pretendy parliament Plebiscite but little England decides not to recognise it. What’s his great grand plan?

    It can’t be the international community as he’s already claimed they don’t listen to “cranks”
    It can’t be to Westminster – he’s not there cause it’s “irrelevant”
    It also can’t be to the decolonisation department at the UN cause we’re not a colony.
    & It certainly won’t be to the wider world cause he already dismisses them as undemocratic terrorist cranks.
    It can’t be the International courts cause they don’t listen to a bunch of nativist bigots.

    So that just leaves him sitting on his arse. Nothing to see here. Let’s just remain as we are & all is well.. job done. Union intact. Maybe we should just convince 90% how about an even 100%

    You are like the crank in the original article. Completely unhinged from the real world.

  340. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @RoS 11.02am

    Its not xenophobic bigotry other countries restrict their constitutional franchise are they xenophobes and bigots? and they ARE the international community.

    Not that old canard again, surely? Other countries holding self determination referendums don’t use the franchises the bigots and xenophobes in here are advocating though do they? No matter how many times you assert this falsehood, it becomes no more true.

    The other countries that we need to be onside to recognise our independence will expect us to abide by certain criteria. Those criteria aren’t absolute, and they can be changed depending on the circumstances.

    They are not going to accept however that Scotland is a colony – however hard Alf Baird and his mates stamp their feet and tut loudly – nor that it is subject to the kind of violence or ethnic conflict that led many (most) of them to recognise e.g. Kosovo or Timor L’Este.

    Disenfranchising swathes of Scots – including many who will have been here for decades – will impact the appetite of the international community for accepting a declaration of Scottish independence, particularly if it is done via a non-standard route which many of the bigoted xenophobes are (naturally enough) all in favour of.

    The international community will look at all the other examples of newly independent states which used an open, liberal franchise for their self determination referendums, and ask why Scotland (uniquely) felt itself entitled to use radically different criteria.

    You and others won’t have a satisfactory response, because there isn’t one that stands up. Moral and political cowardice won’t be an acceptable justification.

  341. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Yet again you completely miss the No voters who thought they were getting

    Devo Max. (Darling/Brown etc)
    Super Devo max (Galloway)
    Remaining in the EU.
    Thought they’d lose their pensions (Brown)
    Thought they wouldn’t be able to use their OWN currency. (Cameron/BoE)

    All proven project fear bullshit.

    So stop blaming all NO voters for lacking balls. They thought they were voting for change – not powers over fcking road signs which we would’ve had anyway!

    Not everyone can be counted as a fan of the Union. & Polling 1,000 ppl in a survey isn’t the same as officially polling 6 million in the only poll that counts – the one at the ballot box.

    I’d put money on you being one of those roasters that was horrified at ppl touting to hold a Plebiscite, the plan B, until Wings mentioned it & that was suddenly a cunning & daring plan.

    Are you Pete Wishart by any chance?

    The franchise will change because a convention will decide what’s happening. Not you.

  342. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 10.22am

    …there are international laws that protect a ppl & their Nation from being consumed by its neighbour & especially one escaping colonial rule.

    The UN doesn’t accept that Scotland qualifies as a colonial situation though. If it did, we’d be on the list of non self governing territories that the General assembly gets annual reports on. Get back to us when Alf and his mates persuade the UN to do that, won’t you?

    Until then, the only way independence will happen is the way it’s happened in other non-colonial situations, the majority of the people concerned (all the people, not just those the cranks consider ethnically pure enough) have to vote for it to happen.

    I wonder what #AskAndy would suggest when 80% of Scots vote YES in a pretendy parliament Plebiscite but little England decides not to recognise it. What’s his great grand plan?

    That’s an easy one: in the unlikely event it happens, we declare independence and take it. However, the prospect of the lumpen Scottish electorate having the balls to declare UDI, or mount a civil disobedience campaign, or stage an insurrection and/or violently resist any attempt by the UK authorities to crush a newly declared independent state approved by 80% of the Scots people, seems pretty remote when they lack the balls to take the much easier step of putting an “X” on the ballot paper.

    The international community left our Catalan friends to their fate in 2017 remember, because they didn’t accept the referendum as valid, even though it’s likely that a majority were in favour. In your scenario it’s likely to be a different matter, but we’ll never know unless and until that happens. they won’t really care if the 80% comes in a referendum or plebiscitary elections.

    I reckon they’d take a pretty dim view of Westminster sending the tanks in, jailing our leadership and violently suppressing a new pro-independence government.

    International courts certainly won’t listen to a bunch of cranks representing a small clique of nativist bigots and xenophobes. In your “future history” example of 80% of Scots voting Yes and Westminster refusing to recognise it, it’d be up to the Scottish people’s representatives at the time to ensure not only that our case was heard, but also that our new state was established. Plenty of other peoples have done so.

    Luckily, we don’t need 80%, or even 60%. We just need 50% +1. Go do!

  343. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    When the game is rigged against a colonised people there are no choices open to them.

    But the Scots are winners in the colonial lottery and are lucky. Lucky to be offered the comforting illusion of having a choice in their own future and the future of their nation.

    The illusion wont help them in any way, quite the opposite, but at least they might feel a wee bit better about being asked how they’d like their oppression served up.

    Choice is offered, if indeed the illusion of choice is offered at all, to the indigenous peoples of colonised societies through the various puppet administrations and compromised public bodies and rigged electoral systems ultimately controlled by their colonisers.

    Choices?

    The Scots have no real choices open to them except the choice to resist their coloniser by not participating in its theatrical and illusory third-rate stage play called ‘Scottish democracy’ – That is the only real choice available to the Scots right now.

    “We don’t want nuclear power stations built in Scotland.” say the Scots.

    “We don’t want a nuclear weapons platform to be based in Scotland.” say the Scots.

    “We don’t want Freeports in Scotland.” say the Scots.

    “We don’t want Fracking in Scotland.” say the Scots.

    “We don’t want a poll tax in Scotland.” said the Scots.

    “Tough!” says England in hateful parody. “Yer gettin’ them aw wether you want them or no. Oh and by the way, wir nickin’ aw yer land, seas and natural resources tae. Nou quit yer whinin’ ye bunch o’ dangerous extremists ye.”

    That be democracy colonialism.

  344. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Geri 11.40am

    I’ll blame who I like thanks. I have nothing but scorn for those who voted No. I don’t care what their motivations were or are now. If they had any nous, they’d have used the near miss of 2014 to actually ensure Devo-Max was delivered and that we started from a positions that Westminster retained control over everything but defence and foreign policy, but that in every other area of policy it had to be justified that it remained under Westminster’s control.

    Your tin foil hat aversion to polling tells us all we need to know. Nutters always dismiss polling, except when the result agrees with their preconceived prejudices.

    I was actually one of those advocating plebiscitary elections as soon as it became apparent #indyref2 wasn’t going to happen.

    The franchise won’t change because the majority of the movement don’t agree with your xenophobic bigotry. There isn’t any need for a convention, just plebiscitary elections. The movement generally hasn’t accepted the concept of a convention: it’s up to those who are advocates of it to convince us all. You won’t decide that, and neither will I.

    Good luck getting the movement generally to line up behind the racist pieces of work advocating for franchise restriction an “cunning plans for indy” BTL here.

  345. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “If it did, we’d be on the list of non self governing territories that the General assembly gets annual reports on”

    We should be because we are not self governing.
    We can’t even conduct a glorified opinion poll or decide where our resources are spent. ALL of them.

    A new world order is coming. Colonialism is over. The UN is finished as an American outfit. It’s gig is up & along with it it’s poodle who’ll no longer be needed on the security council as they’ll not be part of. Tiny little England will be jettisoned along with France & Germany. They’re not a powerhouse. They’re diddy wee nations with fuck all defense, economy, industry or military.

    Im not even reading beyond that comment. It’s a nice day, parcel has arrived & I’ve far more important things to do than read your shit.

  346. Mia
    Ignored
    says:

    “The franchise won’t change because the majority of the movement don’t agree with your xenophobic bigotry”

    Maybe what “the majority of the movement” does not agree with is YOUR xenophobic bigotry. The indigenous Scots voted YES to independence in 2014. That is a fact.

    If that vote had taken place under the rules of any other independent state in the world, including the UK, Scotland would be independent by now. That is another fact.

    It is another fact that it is the xenophobic bigotry against indigenous Scots what denied them of their lawful right to self-determination. And the proof of this is that neither Gibraltar nor The Falklands have a ridiculously open franchise like the one that was forced on Scotland in 2014. I know for a fact that people whose main residence was outwith Scotland, actually, outwith the UK, were given the vote simply because they had a holiday home in Scotland. Every person who came to work temporarily in Scotland for a period of one or 2 years I knew at the time, were given the vote. I also know quite a few cases of those who came only transiently to Scotland to live and work were allowed to vote No and they simply buggered off a few months later. If that is not xenophobia against native Scots, what is.

    Handing over a free vote to everybody under the sun, even those who were living in Scotland for the grand total of 5 minutes, or who came to Scotland specifically to frustrate their vote for independence, is part of the exact same xenophobia. A xenophobia that sees the natives of Scotland as inferior people. A xenophobia who denies them their right to self-determination.

    TAke a look at the franchise OF EVERY country in Europe and just tells us ONE independent state that uses a fake franchise like the one that was foisted on Scotland in 2014 for the sole purpose of denying the indigenous Scots their legitimate right to self-determination. I see none.

    So stop projecting. Stop insulting others, stop taking us for fools and start looking at yourself and your very own xenophobia.

    Why the hell Scotland has to be the only country under the sun that has to accept this appalling level of xenophobia against its own native people for the sake of giving a vote to everybody else so they can frustrate their right to become an independent country?

    In what parallel universe do the outsiders have more rights than the natives when it comes to decide about the independence of the natives’ country and how that country is run?

    Take your colonialist hat off and take a look at the franchise used by the UK for the EU referendum. What do you see? Where did you leave your bravado then? Because I do not recall a single instance of you accusing the UK government of “nativists” or “xenophobia” against the people from the EU.

    Double standards, Ellis?

  347. Saffron Robe
    Ignored
    says:

    Even those who, contrary to the evidence, do not accept that the Union places Scotland in a colonial noose, must surely accept that the Union is based on Anglo supremacy (whether in numbers only or not), and either way it is to be condemned? I don’t think there can be any doubt that it is an unequal union and therefore no legitimate union at all.

  348. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Mia

    Did you notice Viv o Bliv’s post a few days back that mentioned certain aspects of the census data were to be released soon?
    It will be certainly be interesting to see if that information aligns with and supports your projection re. Rest of UK immigration to Scotland since previous census.

  349. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Aye, Saffron Robe. If it walks like a colony…

    And whether Scotland is technically a colony or not…the dead duck of a ‘union’ she’s trapped in treats her as if she were.

    To me the treatment of colonised peoples and the treatment of the Scots as a ‘partner’ within the Union appears remarkably similar.

  350. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    ?Mia @ 12:28
    “ The indigenous Scots voted YES to independence in 2014. That is a fact.”

    That assertion is based on Prof. Ailsa Henderson’s work. That doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Something is up with her numbers.

    Professor Henderson of the University of Edinburgh posits three main contentions regarding the 2014 Independence referendum:
    * 52.7% in indigenous Scots voted Yes.
    * 72.1% of residents born elsewhere in the UK voted No.
    * 57.1% of residents born outside the UK voted No.

    Crunching the numbers:

    Results of the referendum.
    Registered voters 4,283,392
    Turnout 84.59%
    Votes No 2,001,926
    Votes Yes 1,617,989
    Margin of defeat 383,937

    Firstly we have to work out the population figures for 2014. To do this we have the 2011 census and the 2016 mid-census estimate.
    We’re interested in four groupings here; total population, indigenous Scots population, population from rUK and population born outside UK.

    2011 census gives:
    Total population 5.246m
    Indigenous Scots 4.4m
    Residents rUK 0.513m
    Resident born outside UK 0.369m
    (there’s 36k discrepancy here but this is not material to the final result)

    2016 mid-census estimate gives:
    Net immigration from rUK ave. between 2011 & 2014, 7k pa.
    Net immigration from outside UK ave. between 2011 & 2014, 4.5k pa.

    Therefore population rUK in 2014 = (3 x 0.007) + 0.513 = 0.534m
    Therefore population born outside UK in 2014 = (3 x 0.0045) + 0.369 = 0.382m

    To calculate total population in 2014, the mid-census estimate gives population for 2015 as 5.37m.
    Therefore rate of population increase per annum = (5.37 – 5.246) / 4 = 0.031m
    So, total population 2014 = (3 x 0.031) + 5.246 = 5.339m
    For interest, this gives the population of indigenous Scots at 4.423m ie basically unchanged from 2011.

    Now we need the rate of voter registration in 2014 = 4.283 / 5.339 = 80%

    Now we can calculate the net votes against independence from our two demographics.
    Prof Henderson states:
    Net No votes (as a percentage) among rUK residents at 44.2%
    Net No votes (as a percentage) among residents born outside the UK at 14.2%

    Therefore we can calculate actual votes against independence.
    Residents from rUK = 0.8 x 534,000 x 0.846 x 0.442 = 159,744 votes.
    Residents from outside UK = 0.8 x 382,000 x 0.846 x 0.142 = 36,712 votes.
    Therefore total, net votes against independence from non-indigenous Scots = 196,456 votes.

    So, 196.5k net votes No with a Yes margin of defeat of 384k. Clearly something isn’t correct with Prof. Henderson’s hypothesis.
    We could play about with differing rates of voter registration and voter turnout among the three, demographic groups, but this gets us nowhere near the headline claim that “the majority of indigenous Scots voted Yes”

    We would have lost the referendum in 2014 if the franchise had been limited to autochthonous Scots, but the margin of defeat would have been substantially less and crucially a precedent would have been set in terms of electoral franchise for future referenda.
    The movement in general Scottish polls following first the betrayal on the promise to deliver “The Vow” and secondly the Brexit vote would make it highly likely that the majority of indigenous Scots favour independence.
    The next tranche of 2022 census data is due out Tuesday. I understand this will update will include “Ethnic group, national identity, language and religion”. If so, I will assess the possible state of play regards an exclusively autochthonous electorate.

  351. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    «RACE, ETHNICITY & CULTURE»

    German speaking Jews made an enormous contribution, considering their numbers, to the intellectual status of German culture in the arts, sciences etc.
    To the race obsessed Nazis and the like they were promoters of an alien, corrupt culture.
    Germany and Europe have not recovered from the intellectual immolation involved.
    Russia experienced similar debilitating purity purges.
    Scottish culture, however interpreted, is surely strong enough to withstand a little cross fertilization.
    The contemporary EU offers few positive models in that regard.

  352. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Will drop in Mia’s previous post from 2021 on internal UK migration / demographic changes seeing as I have the link to hand.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-ten-seconds-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2673159

  353. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @11.22am.

    I’ve been over this topic with you before, and you’ve provided absolutely no evidence or international laws to counter my points, apart from ad hominem attacks on those who support this route.

  354. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    The problem I have with your figures is I do not know what the term indigenous Scot actually means.

    I tried to find out but as always I was subjected to abuse by Andy Ellis.

    He’s now saying everyone and their granny is Scottish and to suggest otherwise makes you a racist.

    I am not particularly interested in the ethnicity of the voters. I am perfectly aware that there are people who might be described as indigenous Scot who are hard core Unionist. Polling during the Indy Ref suggested they made up 30% of the electorate and it would be impossible to convince them to vote YES.

    I don’t think ethnicity matters well except in the case of the hard core ‘Scottish Unionists’ they will be ‘British – Scottish’ not much you can do about them.

    I think class might be more important than ethnicity.

    What I think would be an interesting figure would be the length of time voters were in Scotland before voting.

    Also number of **students from outwith Scotland, folk with holiday homes and that sort of thing.

    Class would also be interesting. People with holiday homes aren’t going to be for the most part **working class nor will ***people retiring in Scotland.

    Retired people in council houses won’t have a home to sell in order to buy one in Scotland.

    ** working poor might be a more appropriate term. People who don’t have the money to buy a 2nd home.

    ** These students are going to be poor.

    *** These retirees won’t be poor either.

    What I’m suggesting is that it doesn’t matter where voters come from it’s their bank balance that counts.

    ‘Show me the money’. 🙂 If they’ve got plenty they will vote NO.

  355. Ruby Wednesday
    Ignored
    says:

    Mistake should read

    ** These students are not going to be poor.

  356. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @RoS 2.53pm

    I’ve been over this topic with you before, and you’ve provided absolutely no evidence or international laws to counter my points, apart from ad hominem attacks on those who support this route.

    And as before your remain in the wrong. It’s a matter of fact what the franchises used in all the other self determination referendums since 1945 were. Anyone with in internet connection can check it and do their own homework.

    you can study how “the international community” reacted to various instances of contested self determination, whether in Timor L’Este, South Sudan, Kosovo and Catalonia and again do your own homework. International law isn’t that developed. It simply doesn’t support what you and other xenophobic bigots in here keep insisting it does.

    If you have to learn that the hard way, then so be it….but it’s unlikely ever to come to that because you have vanishingly little support and the circumstances Scotland is in don’t support any prospect of the international community, or international law, treating Scotland as a colony or making exceptions because we’re being violently suppressed or otherwise discriminated against.

    Lacking the appetite to put an “X” on a ballot paper is not equivalent to being colonised or oppressed. Happy to help.

  357. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis.

    Still no hard evidence provided from you, so we’ll call it what it is your opinion.

    As for South Sudan it hewn off from Africa’s largest country Sudan by the (USA) Greta Satan because it has ample mineral assets.

    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:A_Brief_History_of_the_CIA%E2%80%99s_Dirty_War_in_South_Sudan

    Catalans we’re beaten arrested and charged by the fas—cist Spanish for daring to declare independence, the Spanish police were awarded medals for their part (brutalisation of the Catalan people) in the violent suppression of the peaceful internationally observed election.

    Of course the EU (which backs kneeo-Natzees in U and the Ge-no–ci–de in Gaazza) didn’t want to interfere in the process in Catalonia preferring to sitback and watch the fas—cist Spanish oppress and brutalise those that held a democratic internationally observed election.

  358. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Did you see Blinken get his photos taken with Nazi regalia?
    FFS they’ll jump into bed with anyone for territory to carve up.

    The country is in ruins but glad he had his guitar “here let me sing you a song” FFS!

    Where the fck do these minions come from? They’ve no class, humility or etiquette.

    Then there’s the ones who can’t decide if mass killing civilians is a crime or not.

    This is the international community is it?

    #AskAndy doesn’t appear to know that it’s other states that would recognise



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