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Wings Over Scotland


A Better Togetherness

Posted on May 15, 2024 by

The National have buried this pretty quickly in understandable embarrassment:

Because some things are just a little TOO on-the-nose for comfort.

Emma Roddick MSP, who holds cherished ambitions of one day becoming a dunce and was until very recently a Scottish Government minister, announced that her vision of Scottish independence was, um, a union with England, Wales and Ireland.

(Strikingly, she didn’t even say NORTHERN Ireland, so we suppose that someone had better go and break the news to Dublin.)

She kept repeating it so that nobody misunderstood. She wanted, she said, to “go back to basics on what independence means”, and asserted that that meant being in a union with England, which she would “personally love”.

Of course, she did specify that the CURRENT union was not acceptable. She appeared to be proposing to the people of England that their 53 million voices should carry no more weight than the 5.3 million of Scotland, the 3 million of Wales or – we presume in reality – the 1.8 million of Northern Ireland.

And, y’know, good luck persuading them of that. But in a miraculous world where you could convince them to give away so much of their power for nothing, what would it be that you were creating? A four-country union in which Scotland was still a minority and could still be outvoted by the other three, for a start.

(And how would you, for example, solve a tiebreak in a case like Brexit, where Scotland and NI voted to stay but England and Wales voted to leave, which is a 2-2 draw? Presumably the “goal difference” would have to be the total numbers of votes, which is what actually happened anyway. So your “independent” Scotland would still be dragged out of Europe against its will.)

But more to the point, what you’d be campaigning for was simply a better version of the UK, and if anyone can explain to us how that’s different to what, say, Gordon Brown wants – and indeed what he and the other Unionist leaders promised in “The Vow”, as demanded by the SNP’s current chief executive, and which he and they both insisted had been delivered – we’re all ears.

We remember the indyref, readers, and we’re pretty sure Gordon Brown wasn’t on the same side as us. But it’s increasingly clear that he’s now on the same side as his old pal Murray Foote’s new SNP, and it’s not because HE’S changed his views.

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duncanio

The latest SNP ‘thinking’ from Emma Shit-for-Brains Roddick.

holymacmoses

She never fails to amaze with her ultimate lack of basic understanding of words.

AndyH

What the…

Dan

SNP taking over the mantle of the Party of devolution.
Makes you wonder that if the graphic in this linked to article were to be updated would it still have so many SNP green ticks…

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Tack on this link too for more background info on the stellar mind workings of Roddick.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Garrion

On a par with “let them eat cake” in terms of sheer cognitive dissonance. How does a country that has historically produced such a disproportionate number of great and influential people manage to provide to the body politic complete fkn dunces, or venal self interested rodents? Mebbe 300+ years of cultural and existential colonization?

Alf?

The Isolator

Oh dear.. the lanyard is the giveaway surely. Just park up in this cul de sac and we’ll secure independence within say 30 years.Absolute imposter.

AnneDon

This is the culmination of SNP HQ taking over the selection of candidates from the SNP branches. You get to promote people who will never threaten your power.

The fact they make useless legislators and are incapable of representing the interests of their constituents isn’t important.

Ian McCubbin

She must be the lowest in the barrel for carrot dropping to the masses.
Is she really serious about this. Its let’s create a new union where we are still ripped of by England.
No thanks full independence only.
Bye bye Riddock.

ross

Look up supranational states on wikipedia. It’s not a hard concept to grasp.

EU

The African Union

Org of Turkic states

Pacific Alliance

Benelux

Carribean Community

Central American Integration System

Gulf Cooperation council

Eurasion economic union

Arab League

There are others.

Northcode

I’m sure her Mum loves her, and she probably isn’t a bad person.

But stupidity is dangerous – that fool Sunak’s rant about Scottish independence supporters being extremists is proof – and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near decision-making bodies which can affect the lives of a nation’s citizens in the most detrimental of ways.

Unfortunately, for the moment at least, Scotland seems to be represented by nothing but stupid.

Stupid is the real new King of Scotland’s governing elite, a new King that has asked greed to be its Queen.

And just like Charlie’s new portrait and the imperial union it represents, the union of stupid and greed doesn’t paint a pretty picture for the Scots.

MaryB

Perhaps she’s looking for a move to Labour, hoping to save her seat.

John C

I don’t think there’s an issue with an independent Scotland being in an agreement along the lines of Schengen with the remainder of the UK, even Ireland. That would maintain our independence and solve a few issues regarding free movement and trade within the British Isles and Ireland.

A ‘union’ where we’re essentially independent in name only is worthless, and I assume Roddick is thinking she’s trying to pander to soft No voters but the fact is, independence isn’t going to be a major issue in the Westminster election. People have other priorities right now.The Scottish government is announcing a national housing emergency later today and that’s just the tip of an iceberg, though perhaps Swinney can cancel those Green policies and claw back as much of the £200m the Greens got taken out of the housing budget for cycle lanes.

It’s clear that Sunak’s too scared to call an election & it’s increasingly looking like an autumn election or even a last minute one in January next year. Swinney hasn’t much time to turn things round to convince people who’ve left the SNP to vote for them again, and I don’t think people like Roddick are any help at all.

Marie Clark

In the name of the wee man, where the hell do they get these numpties.
If that is her sincerely held view, I think that she is most definitely in the wrong party. Oh haud oan mibbie naw as the current SNP have morphed into the Labour party.

Ach well the sooner we get rid of theses eejits the better and hell mend the lot o them.

fran

Brain dead Roddick only joined SNP as a way to get elected, first as a councillor, then used her personality disorder to jump to top of the list. Why the fuck Yousaf made her a minister is anyones guess. She talks more about sodding TQ+ identity up here, always wanting her pic taken with rainbows, when the idiot does mention indy, she makes an arse of that too.

TURABDIN

Scotland does not need new powers condescendingly proffered by London it needs the authentic, liberating power of independence, the power to choose its friends, alliances, strategies etc., and make mistakes, without constraint from outsiders.
The US, the British state and to a singular degree the EU offer little but coercive finger wagging.
The fingers, as we know, will inevitably morph into an iron fist of neo imperialism.

Cherrybank

The NEC replaced members choice of candidates for the List system for the Scottish Parliament by appointed disabled and immigrant candidates.

PacMan

As well as for independence, the SNP in the past has marketed itself to the voting public as the Labour of old.

Now that they have effectively ditched the pretence of supporting independence, maybe their new strategy is to be more Labour than Labour?

Dave Llewellyn

I’m not surprised they buried it .
How we can we be in a union with the UK if we are a partner in it ?
It should be substituted with “want to be a colony of the Greater England Project”.

Stravaiger

I made the mistake of visiting Scot Goes Pop to see what was happening over there, and many/most of the BTL thinking (with some notable exceptions who got pelters) was along the lines of ‘but we have to vote SNP or else the dream of independence is dead’.

Give

Me

STRENGTH!

TURABDIN

A soft spot for monarchy and retaining «kith&kin» links with England and its interests?
What does that say?
I am not one of those terrible separatist nationalists mr Starmer, mr Sunak, mr Schwab…

WhoRattledYourCage

Roddickulous.

James Che

Looks like the new treaty of union with Scotland between the Westminster government and the Westminster government administration in Scotland .

Mmmm WestminsterDoing a deal with ones self,

Scotland not involved in the package at all.

Sven

Adding weight to my speculative theory that Ms Roddick was brought into the administration to make Ms Robison appear almost adequate.

Vivian O’Blivion

“Genius has its limitations, stupidity is not thus encumbered.”

MI5 has an annual budget of £4 billion. It exists to protect the British state.
The British Broadcasting Corporation had its charter altered by David Cameron to include promotion of the British state. The portion of its budget that is committed to that purpose is unknowable and inconsequential. Editorial bias comes without a price tag.
Other British agencies such as Special Branch will be actively engaged in thwarting Scottish independence.
Then there’s the plethora of think-tanks such as the John Smith Centre and Gordon Brown’s Our Scottish Future. These have undisclosed funding and proven links to the British Security Services.

And yet, the imbecilic brain farts of Emma Roddick are acceptable parlance within NuSNP.
The SNP is the Irish Parliamentary Party of the 21st century. Progress can only be made when the SNP shares the fate of the IPP.

James Che

Sounds like labour/ nuSnp version of the new treaty of union with Scotland, only its actually the Westminsters parliament new treaty with its Westminsters administration it sent to Scotland under the Scotland Act,

Scotland in not involved at all,
One of those moments that the UK established parties think the Scots will be too Stupid to notice such a flaw in a treaty,

Well spotted Stu,

Dave M

The day Roddick’s intellect rises to that of ‘Idiot’ will be a momentous day indeed. How the hell did she manage to even be nominated as a candidate? I wouldn’t trust her to be able to read the right time from a clock.

James Che

All ministers whom sit in the Scottish administration from Westminster under the Scotland Act have to swear an Oath to the Crown and Westminster parliament,

If those people and parties sitting in the Scottish Administration from Westminster now step out of line for “Scottish independence” they would be held accountable for treason to and by the UK government,

Hatey McHateface

So if we are all categorically adamant we don’t want to be in “some sort of union or cooperation agreement with the rest of what is currently the UK”, are we all equally and categorically adamant we don’t want to be in “some sort of union or cooperation agreement with the rest of what is currently the EU”?

That would just be simple and logical consistency. Thus a very easy question to answer.

I’m thinking that anybody answering “No” or “It’s complicated” should stand in front of a mirror and take a long, hard look at themself.

ronald anderson@gmail.com

I,m in Swinney has changed his lapel badge to a Saltire . I change my mind several times a day but my mind is firm on Swinney A useless piece of shite .

James Che

I doubt that Scottish independence would have ever come through such a rigged Colonial administration, and voting for any of them is a vote for the status quo.

The problem and obstacle for Scotland is the Westminster parliaments Scottish administration,

Whereas the Scots people themselves have not sworn an oath of Allegiance to the UK,

The Scots were not even invited or asked to join the treaty of union, because in all probability “they would have voted No”.

The Sovereignty of the Scots as a nation was always perceived by England and Scotland as separate issue from any parliament wether that was in 1707 or in present day 2024.

TURABDIN

YEWKAY is a US maintained aircraft carrier parked off NW Europe.
Scottish independence would effectively sink it.
Hence, the pro Nato feed from within and the extremist, threat to Western security etc litany from without.
It is very likely that Starmer régime would be even more anti than that of Sunak.
Preserving the territorial integrity of the status quo is, nevertheless, carved in granite in both camps and endorsed by much higher authority too.

Geri

Is she bezzie mates with Dugdale? Dropped by the Smith centre for a latte & a natter?

Sounds awfully like “What we need in a new Act of Union” Dugdale circa 2015.

I believe this will be their next move. It wouldn’t have gone away.

Alf Baird

“She wanted, she said, to “go back to basics on what independence means””

The basic meaning of national independence for any non self-governing territory is decolonization, according to the UN, and former colonies now independent states. Ms Roddick and other SNP MSPs/MPs, whose understanding clearly remains rudimentary, can read about it here, in simple to understand leaflet version:

link to salvo-cor.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com

James Che

Northcode,

Sunaks rant about Scottish Independence Supporters being extremists,
I would presume only applies to those whom had sworn an Oath of allegiance to the Crown and Westminster parliament in the Scottish devolved administration they sent to Scotland under the Scotland Act,

For the rest of Scots have not taken that Oath,

In actual fact according to Westminster parliament site itself in 2023/2024 they have never asked the Scots to vote or to join the treaty of union,
That statement by themselves establishes that “both England and Scotland” perceive that the Scots were and are Sovereign and an entirely separate issue and entity from any government or parliament in Scotland wether it was in 1707 or in 2024.
It also confirms Scotlands peoples Claim of Right, and Sovereignty.
It is worth the 50% of Scottish people copying it out for future reference,

Northcode

“in simple to understand leaflet version”

Is it simple enough for Ms Roddick and other SNP MSPs/MPs though, Alf? Maybe we should all chip in and produce a colouring-in book for them, too.

Stuart MacKay

In normal times, evil would be fought with good. But in times like these, well, it should be fought by another kind of evil.

– Aereon, The Chronicles of Roddick

Just send her over to MI5. There won’t be any survivors.

Ian

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”
? Albert Einstein

WingsOverFrance

I hope nobody falls into the trap of thinking Roddick is merely an outlier because she’s really not. The only people not in on it are SNP voters. Well, some of them. The coup is nearly complete. Thanks Stu.

Karen

I’ve never bothered to read “The Vow” until now. Underwhelmed is an understatement.

BLMac

It’s monstrous that folk are claiming the SNP are settling for devolution and no longer have the funds they got from us for an independence campaign.

I trust the SNP. Our independence fund is safely interwoven with their other accounts. They have a RV battlewagon ready for the campaign sitting ready on Mr Sturgeon’s mum’s driveway.

Oh yes, I’m totally confident that independence is just around the corner, and there’s nothing we Scots would like better than to be in a new arrangement with England so we can continue to benefit from their kind and gentle oversight.

Woke up folks, have faith and believe that the Earth is flat, the king wears the finest clothes, Pi = 3, XX=XY and ladies have penises.

I could write more, but I’m off to buy a new umbrella. The shit falling from the pigs flying over is staining my shiny baw heid.

100%Yes

I would presume is was thinking of Sturgeon, Humza and now Swinney. I for one applaud her for her honesty, we knew there was something wrong with the SNP, but what and now we know. Its a pity Sturgeon didn’t tell us this was her vision for Scotland when she became leader of the SNP, so we could have gotten of the SNP gravy train before 2015 election.

This is what the SNP does, its sends out a minion out to voice an opinion in the Rag and lets see how it goes down, Scots don’t forget about a few years back the Devo-Madmax to be put on the ballot paper to see how it went down, well it went down a strom.

Republicofscotland

Roddick personifies what the SNP have become, and its not a party for Scottish independence, a vote for the SNP is vote for the status quo or worse.

Lets not give the SNP anymore votes they’ve had ten years of doing nothing on the indyfront, instead they’ve wasted millions in taxpayers cash and spent most of their time in office pushing gender polices that the majority of the Scottish public doesn’t want.

No more votes for the SNP, vote ISP or Alba.

There’s one tiny sliver of hope and that is Police Scotland arrests and rearrests those involved in Operation Branchform and that the COPFS charges the lot of them, they are forced to resign from the party and any group that supports independence within the party, but have kept their powder dry for a moment such as this, seizes control of the party and puts independence front and centre.

Its a long shot as long shots go.

Vivian O’Blivion

Those who continue to insist that the SNP remain a viable route to independence exist on a spectrum that runs from clinically naïve through ignorant and uninformed to disingenuous. The naïveté rests on an assumption that the British, Permanent State would stand impartially aside and observe as the institution it exists to conserve is disarticulated by peaceful, democratic means.

It would not be constructive to personally insult those who hold to this Panglossian perspective, but MI5 alone has an annual budget of £4 billion.

Universally, the moment of triumph in decolonisation struggle results from a “perfect storm”, the convergence of disparate influences and temporary events.

The present, Republic of Ireland originated at a point in time where a minor political party (Sinn Féin) allied with a covert insurgent movement (Irish Republican Brotherhood) were able to harness an existential threat to the colonial state (World War One) to blindside both the British Permanent State and its local surrogate (Irish Parliamentary Party).

Decolonisation of Vietnam and Algeria benefited from the psychological damage rendered the French state by defeat and four years of occupation in WW2 (Morocco and Tunisia were liberated without a fight).

Similarly, the dissolving of the British Empire post WW2 was at least accelerated by the privations inflicted on the British domestic economy by the Atlantic blockade and the Lüftwaffe bombing campaign.

The disparate elements of the “perfect storm” can be divided into those that can be internally influenced and those that lie beyond our control. In the case studies briefly touched on, the insurgent parties took advantage of geopolitical events.

In terms of what can be achieved in the absence of external trauma inflicted on the colonising state, the circumstances which prevailed in 2014 were perhaps fortuitously favourable to the insurgent, Yes movement. The apparatus of the British state (MI5, etc.) were caught off guard by the uprising of a spontaneous, decentralised, grassroots nebula of Yes groups possessing geographical and societal diversity that the bureaucratic, hierarchical and unimaginative arms of the Permanent State were ill equipped to combat.

The 10% margin of victory for No, incorporating the perfidious Local Government franchise and the now infamously fraudulent, The Vow, was too close for comfort for the British Permanent State.

The SNP have been incorporated into the fabric of the British state through application of tried and tested tricks. The acronym employed by the Security Services is MICE: Money, Ideology, Compromise & Ego.

Also for consideration should be COINTELPRO, the manual for infiltrating and neutralising a target, revolutionary entity.

In any case, the SNP has been rendered an obstacle to its stated prime directive; Scottish independence.

Humza Yousaf, Jenny Gilruth, Patrick Grady, Angela Crawley, Stewart McDonald and Kate Forbes have been touched by the Machiavellian hand of the covert, American Permanent State.

Ian Blackford and Angus Robertson as members of the British American Parliamentary Group may also fall into this category (BAPG members are exempt for declaring US State Department gratuities in their HoC Register of Interests).

Ian Blackford and Pete Wishart vie with one another to become the first SNP MP to take the ermine.

The Party would be insolvent but for the £1.3m pa it receives in Short money from the British state and the c. £800k pa it extracts in tithes from its elected representatives in Westminster and Holyrood.

The SNP is as integral to the British state as the Irish Parliamentary Party was before it.

robertkknight

Is this “news”?

We all know the SNP only claims to want Indy when in reality all it wants is for the noses of their elected representatives to be buried in as many troughs as possible, so that the party coffers can swell to a size sufficient to provide a living for the SPADS and the family members and the family friends and the secret lovers who are all in the employ of the SNP.

The SNP don’t want Indy… the SNP just wants money, and it isn’t too fussy whether it comes via city chambers, Holyrood, Westminster, Brussels or Uncle Tom Cobley and all.

Northcode

I’m not a fan of Flynn. He talks a lot of flynnflam and he’s not interested in Scottish independence.

However, he did say this (point scoring most likely) in the commons:

Mr Flynn said: “Let’s be clear, what the Prime Minister did was not just equate my colleagues and I to despotic and dangerous despots across the world, he proactively compared almost half of his Scottish population with a war criminal like Vladimir Putin, and he did so as their Prime Minister – as the man who represents them on the world stage, and the man who on these isles, is tasked with defending their liberties and their democracy.”

“We know that his sorry time in office is rapidly coming to a conclusion.”

“Is this really how he wants to be remembered?”

Regardless of Flynn’s motives he did at least reprimand Sunak on his ill-considered, inflammatory comments.

David Hannah

We’re out the EU. And Russia is not our enemy.

I am a Sovereign Scot my loyalty is to my nation of Scotland.

Stop the boats. And start the planes.

Franz Ferdinand moment. Nothing do to with us. I will not fight my Christian Orthodox brothers and sisters. I’ll not be stocking up on canned foods either. Buying flash lights or Geiger counters.

David Hannah

We are out the EU.

Not our problem!

David Hannah

Alleged attacker apprehended at the scene. Nothing to do with us.

Switching off channel now. And for a few days.

Stop the military industrial complex.

I’m not paying. We all know what for. We all know! The people don’t trust the establishment elite in the West. For good reason.

Stop the boats. And start the planes. The real war!

Breastplate

H McH @ 2:14pm

No John, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with cooperation between states for mutually beneficial endeavours.

The dictatorial facet of this Union can be boiled down to ‘What England wants, England gets.
This has been explained to you on numerous occasions, evidenced by (I believe) a Hansard library report.

It is impossible for the UK Parliament to prioritise England and Scotland’s needs as they are different and at times, contradictory.

It is therefore illogical to choose to continue in this relationship from Scotland’s perspective.

David Hannah

The Americans of course have flooded Europe with weapons.

They’ve flooded Europe with weapons.

Well done Biden. This is all your fault. Isn’t it?

We say no to war. NO. We will not fight. Send your kids to the front line first!

Young Lochinvar

Roddick makes me wonder; is a halfwits head half full or half empty?

The SNP in its current form will never secure independence because frankly it just doesn’t seem to be really that fashed about it.

Sturgeon will be remembered as the FM with repeat mandates and repeat open goals courtesy of the Tory Clowns in Westminster and their antics but failed to capitalise on them for the benefit of independence.

We can all now clearly see her head was elsewhere; heck maybe she and Harvie first met Roddick down the swingers club where their real policies get thrashed (no pun intended) out.

paul

Emma is more than welcome to have opinions

I do not feel obligated to share them

Anthem

Seemingly, she plays the fiddle.

Mac

Quality post Viv.

I wonder if such an opportunity might present itself as the US empire destroys itself. Because I think it is coming in my lifetime and I am not exactly young.

Mac

Gosh, the Ru$$ian friendly newly elected PM of Slovakia is shot.

It is funny how it is never the ones sucking on yank cock.

And people think we would be allowed independence… laughable.

James Che

Now Westminster has more than one parliament in Britain, does that also add another breach to the treaty of union?

Hatey McHateface

@Mac says: 15 May, 2024 at 6:51 pm

That’s an unfortunate, ahem, “fixation” you have there.

Langlands Rd

More power to your keyboard, RevStu!!

Hatuey

Vivian, your commentary and analysis today is up there with the best ever on this forum.

“In the case studies briefly touched on, the insurgent parties took advantage of geopolitical events.”

I attempted to explain this a few weeks ago and was accused of putting Palestinian rights above the rights of Scots.

It is clear that the SNP is heading for a sort of Clause 4 moment whereby its foundational commitment to independence is ceremonially abandoned and replaced with a commitment to increased devolution. This makes sense for a party that has lost the support and confidence of its core supporters.

It also makes sense if you assume channels of communication with the incoming Labour Party and the potential for a deal to be struck.

As long as everyone is aware that a deal with the Labour Party will come at a price, and that the SNP will most likely sell our right to independence down the river; formally giving up on the goal as a party and doing its best to make independence impossible forever.

James Che

I am not sure that the SNP ever had the right to fly the independence flag for Scotland whilst it swore an Oath to the Crown and Westminster parliament,

It appears to be a falsehood and a extended but “propaganda carrot dangling” party,
As for labour doing a deal with the SNP,
Labour and the SNP are tories, but with different cards, playing a crooked game of poker with Scotland ,
The slight of hands is hardly decernible.

Tinto Chiel

Jeezo!

Surely Emma Roddick only exists to show there’s something even less useful in the whole world than a hotel toaster.

John H.

I’ve heard it said that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t want candidates standing for election who were brighter than her. Which would explain a lot about where we are today.

pipinghot

James Che, they all trotted into there and swore alegence to the crown. Does not matter if it was in English,Gaelic or fucking Swahili it’s an oath to the union.
Sinn Fein saw it for what it was.

David

The lack of talent within our political class is truly amazing/scary

Lorna Campbell

The Scandi countries once had relationships close to ours in the UK, but managed to break free and are now all independent states in their own right. They co-operate on a wide range of issues of mutual benefit but never compromise their own, or each other’s independence. We could have a similar relationship with out former UK inmates, but not if England was to be the big wheel. Just wouldn’t work. Sweden is the biggest of the Scandi states, although Finland might be the biggest by area, not sure, but Norway is the richest and Denmark the happiest socially, with Iceland n to far behind. Intermarriage is fairly common and their nationals do work in each other’s countries. However, international relations and politics are not something that they swap and deal on, and neither would we. Sorry, Emma, you are speaking through a hole in your nethers.

Bob O'

It’s disheartening to see the state of the SNP, with figures like Emma Roddick epitomising the party’s decline in quality. Her track record, marred by dismissals and lacking in both education and work experience, raises serious questions about the party’s selection process. It’s concerning that loyalty, rather than ability, seems to be the primary criterion for candidacy.

For a cause as crucial as independence, we need skilled negotiators with a proven track record, not inexperienced activists out of their depth in politics. Figures like Siobhan Brown, Jenni Minto, and Kuakab Stewart simply don’t inspire confidence in their ability to lead.

The absurdities in Holyrood only fuel Westminster’s mockery, with trivialities like pardoning witches and banning woodburning stoves diverting attention from the real issues. It’s clear that the SNP’s priorities have shifted from fighting for independence to securing cushy ministerial positions.

The complacency among SNP MPs, enjoying lavish lifestyles while neglecting their duty to push for independence, is a bitter pill to swallow. The party seems more interested in self-preservation than in advancing the cause of independence.

After years of loyal support, it’s disheartening to see the SNP lose sight of its purpose. For many, myself included, the party has lost its way, prioritising personal gain over the greater good. It’s time for change, and the SNP can no longer count on my support.

MaryB

Gordon Brown on Channel 4 news, speaking from Fife about child poverty. But no mention of the Scottish Child Payment. Krishnan didn’t ask him about it either. Brown talks as though Scotland doesn’t exist as an entity.

Ian Smith

Child payment handouts through government bureaucracy will never end child poverty. We need to get a functional working and contributing society.

It’s proven to destruction that everything socialism touches turns to shit.

Geri

Ian Smith

“We need to get a functional working and contributing society.”

No. What we need is work that pays a real living wage. Not slaves working for nothing while tax dodgers dodge.

Capitalism strangles the life out of everything to enrich the few.

Andrew scott

What checks are there to make sure the £25 child payments goes on children and not on buckie or bookies
Just askin

Republicofscotland

So England’s PM Rishi Sunak slammed the SNP when they created the position Minister for Independence, no doubt Sunak will be over the moon that Swinney in one of his first acts after his SNP coronation was to do away with the position of Minister for Independence.

Republicofscotland

The English government wants to build a nuclear reactor in Scotland.

“THE UK Government is considering plans to build a nuclear reactor in Scotland despite fierce opposition.

Alister Jack told a Westminster committee he has asked ministers at the Department for Energy and Net Zero to plan for a nuclear reactor to be built in Scotland as part of a UK-wide programme.

A UK Government source told STV News a Scottish nuclear reactor had been “part of our thinking for some time”.

Geri

You have to laugh at the Tories – a party within a party with a secret club within another club & with all manner of foreign donors, dodgy Dave’s & pig shaggers – points to wee Scotland to scoff at a ministerial position that does have a fcking mandate & is, at the very least, elected AND elected in Scotland – unlike that unelected eejit & his band of mates who Scotland rejects.

Tell him to GTF!

Garavelli Princip

In 1886 (the UK) Parliament passed the first piece of legislation dealing directly with the mental health of its members, the Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Act (long since repealed).

It laid out the procedure in cases where an MP was ‘received, or committed into, or detained in any asylum, house, or other place as a lunatic’.

After being informed that an MP was in this position, the Speaker would send two commissioners of lunacy (or the equivalent Irish or Scottish officials) to visit and examine the MP. They would report to the Speaker on whether the MP was ‘of unsound mind’.

If this was the case, a second examination would be made six months later. If the MP was still deemed to be of unsound mind, his seat would be declared vacant, and a new writ would be issued for a by-election.

This poor woman has been diagnosed with border-line personality disorder, characterised by (inter alia):

A strong fear of abandonment; A pattern of unstable, intense relationships; shifting goals and values; periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality; Impulsive and risky behaviour, or sabotaging success by suddenly quitting a good job; and loss of contact with reality; psychotic episodes.

There is little doubt that individuals suffering from the above would have fallen under the terms of the Lunacy (vacating seats) Act. There is also little doubt that the utterance complained of (above) displays many of the characteristics of the disorder attributed to this poor woman.

These are more enlightened times, and brutal dismissal of the mentally ill is not acceptable.

But it is fair to question the wisdom of submitting a sufferer of this disorder to a role that would inevitably create the stresses that would exacerbate this condition. We can see the results.

Was it fair to her? is it fair to her constituents? Is it fair to those who thought they were voting for independence?

On the other hand, Ms Roddick has done us all a favour by starkly revealing the underlying assumptions, thoughts and attitudes towards independence of NuSNP.

We already knew this, but such clear guileless confirmation by an ingenue is refreshing and useful.

Iain More

FFS! Do all Wokists have shit for brains? Or are they all just Yoons? Or both?

Anthem

Geri @10.10pm
Exactly!

Kcor

WingsOverFrance
15 May, 2024 at 3:13 pm

“The coup is nearly complete.”

Not nearly, the betrayal by the SNP is fully complete.

There is not a single SNP MSP or MP who can dare to speak out against the No independence policy of the SNP.

The likes of Cherry and Forbes are the lowest of the low IMHO.

Still the gullible independence supporters who will vote for the SNP don’t get it.

No country in the world has pro rata as many people as stupid as the people of Scotland.

Breeks

Geri
Ignored says:
15 May, 2024 at 10:10 pm
Ian Smith

“We need to get a functional working and contributing society.”

No. What we need is work that pays a real living wage. Not slaves working for nothing while tax dodgers dodge.

Capitalism strangles the life out of everything to enrich the few.

There’s a saying, when playing Monopoly, if nobody builds houses / hotels, nobody loses and everybody gets richer.

Neoliberalism is not about a better life for everybody, it’s about harvesting the wealth of ordinary people to create obscene wealth for the greedy few.

Thing is, once you begin to think about it, it has a lot on common with the Treaty of Union; not just the plunder and intrinsic exploitation, but the vital necessity / dependence upon profound indoctrination of those to be harvested.

Auld Scots Law was rooted in the common good philosophy, and declared it illegal to profit from somebody’s misfortune. Just imagine how many corporate bodies, insatiable shareholders and greedy utility companies would be in the dock if that was still the case. All these fkrs profiteering from Air BnB short term lets while new wannabe families can’t get a basic place to live; – and literally fleeced of their wages if they can.

The system is BROKEN.

Here, today, Scotland has just declared a housing emergency, which will likely see the very same profiteering housing developers / financiers who maintain extortionate house prices by orchestrating artificially high demand and under supply, given licence to tear up more of our countryside, and make obscene profits derived from a housing strategy which extorts the maximum amount of money out for the absolute minimum of money in.

Big bucks for the developers and mortgage brokers who created this mess, but more trash-built, overvalued wooden sheds for people to live in, and spend their entire lives paying for.

The whole system is a racket from cover to cover. Most people know it’s a racket too, yet where, anywhere, do you see criticism of the rotten illusion? Where, anywhere, do people have a choice?

How I ache to witness a new era of Scottish Enlightenment which again, has the common good at the heart of it, yet “somehow” we get served up thunder-dunces like Roddick, Swinney, Sturgeon and all the other flops in our Vichy Holyrood.

We urgently need rid of these brainless bastards, prioritising My-Little-Pony politics over defending Scotland’s rights and interests as a Nation, while the odious Westminster “decides” we are generous allies to the genocidal murderers in Tel Aviv. It’s sickening. It’s criminal.

With Auld Scots Law back in command it actually would be criminal.

Robert Louis

Given that this chump from the SNP has stated this all publicly, it is likely their are many now in the SNP hierarchy who concur. The SNP really, really have lost their way, openly talking of ‘enhanced devolution’. The SNP really are an obstacle to independence now.

The SNP, the devolution party.

Peter A Bell

Speaking at Nigg Energy Park in July 2013, Alex Salmond referred to the six unions which bind Scotland to the rest of the UK – the EU, a currency union, the Union of the Crowns, a defence union through membership of Nato, a social union among the people of the four nations and the political. Of these, he identified the political union (the Union) as the one which was a serious problem for Scotland.

He said,

“The political union does not work for Scotland any more. It holds Scotland back and imperils our future. It will not bend and it will not change of its own accord. So we will, we must, change it.

“We must address and fundamentally change the political and economic union as a matter of urgency. This political union is only one of six unions that govern our lives today in Scotland, and the case for independence is fundamentally a democratic one.

“A vote for independence next year will address the democratic deficit which sees policies like the punitive bedroom tax, the renewal of Trident or Royal Mail privatisation imposed on Scotland against the wishes of Scotland’s democratically elected representatives.

“But that will still leave five other unions intact. We will embrace those other unions while using the powers of independence to renew and improve them.”

Viewed in the context of the time when it was made, it is a perfectly reasonable perspective. Maybe a bit too ‘reasonable’ for some. But bear in mind that Salmond was seeking to counter a relentless British propaganda campaign portraying Scotland’s independence as the total estrangement of the nation and its people. If the Better Together mob were to be believed, independent Scotland would resemble North Korea. But not nearly as welcoming.

Two thoughts struck me as I read Emma Roddick’s ‘thinking’ on the constitutional issue. The first was how much better Alex Salmond was at untangling the political union from the others and making it the villain of the piece. The second was how differently broadly similar ideas were received now as compared with eleven years ago.

Alex Salmond’s ‘six unions’ speech in 2013 prompted considerable discussion. But not, as I recall, serious controversy. Obviously, republicans and the anti-NATO / anti-EU contingent(s) were not pleased. Likewise, the currency obsessives. But, on the whole, the Yes movement understood why he said what he did and didn’t get too worked up about it.

The fact that Emma Roddick’s remarks along similar lines has provoked so much hostility speaks to the way general perceptions of the constitutional issue have changed in the intervening decade and more. This hostility is not, I think, wholly explaind by the clumsiness with which she expressed her views. Certainly, no allowances are now being made for and perceived need to calm fears of Scotland becoming and isolated pariah state, with razor-wire and guard-towers all along the border.

Even to hint at any kind of continuing formal union with rump-UK is enough to loose a torrent of angry objection.

With the usual caveats regarding generalisation, in 2013 we supposed that an amicable (to some degree) divorce from the UK was possible. Who outside SNP leadership still believes this now? Even within The Clique, who genuinely believes it?

Alex Salmond’s speech was, for the most part, received as the leader of the independence movement playing the political game within the context of the referendum campaign and the fight to restore Scotland’s independence. Emma Roddick’s remarks are immediately seized upon as the voice of those who have failed Scotland’s cause preparing the ground for further betrayal.

The entire tenor of discourse on the constitutional issue has changed dramatically since 2013. But you wouldn’t think so listening to John Swinney or his colleagues. Their whole demeanour suggests that they haven’t had a single fresh thought since maybe 2011. They really are clueless.

TURABDIN

«BUT THAT WILL STILL LEAVE FIVE OTHER UNIONS ( the EU, a currency union, the Union of the Crowns, a defence union through membership of Nato, a social union among the people of the four nations) intact.
We will embrace those other unions, while using the powers of independence to renew and improve them»
Alex SALMOND.

Essentially the same half cooked, squirming outlook as RODDICK.
An iScotland would still be very BRITISH in character and carry its historic baggage.
Mr SALMOND will have had time since 2013, in the light of events, to reconsider the wisdom of those UNIONS.

Geri

TURABDIN

Maybe cause the others would’ve been on an equal footing (& a veto) as an independent nation.

I agree with you tho. Times have since changed. NATO has its own unelected eejits & political system that serves only one countries interests, the USA. & the EU has gone to the dogs because of its reliance on it.

The union of crowns would’ve been put to a ref & the free movement (common travel area) would be an agreement with Republic of Ireland the same as the UK currently has.

Ridiculous Roddick seems to be suggesting an improved, non binary, neither one thing or the other, everything remains the same (tho yer locked in this time) Act of Union. She can jog on & keep jogging..

These roasters were elected for independence. Not to make shit up as they go along. She’s obviously drew the short straw to go test feedback.

Here’s mine: GTF, ya eejits ..

scottydog

Everyone that wants independence doesn’t necessarily want the same thing. The SNP’s proposals or Alba’s does not carry a majority. This is the debate we should be having! Why can’t the UK be a union of equals? Why can’t England, Scotland and the RUK have its own independent governments. The UK could be set up like Europe and I think the majority across the UK would want that. Someone needs to start making the case because having a hard border with RUK doesn’t make economic sense. Like Norway, Scotland could then also join the EEA.
Independence needs a rethink!

Ruby Tuesday

I can’t see the point in talking about what iScotland might do vis a vis membership of the various different Unions at this point in time.

All that will depend on what the electorate of an iScotland want.

This whole debate vis a vis independence is stuck in 2011.

This is most evident in the contributions made by Unionists on this forum. They keep asking the same questions which were answered way back in 2011.

If I were looking to sell Independence I would name all these various Unions and emphasis the fact that an Independent Scotland would be free to leave all these Unions without asking for their permission whereas that is not the case with the British Union.

My campaign for independence would be very simple.

I would ask ‘Should Scotland be an Independent country or a British colony?

The topic of Scotland being a British colony is new or at least I don’t remember it being discussed between 2011 – 2014.

You want to be part of a Union be it the EU, Nato or whatever should the people of Scotland decide or should that be left to the English electorate to decide on our behalf.

Alf Baird

Peter A Bell @ 7:42 am

“The entire tenor of discourse on the constitutional issue has changed dramatically since 2013. But you wouldn’t think so listening to John Swinney or his colleagues. Their whole demeanour suggests that they haven’t had a single fresh thought since maybe 2011. They really are clueless.”

Insightful analysis, Peter.

By their deceit, the SNP elite has put themselves in a kind of ‘revolutionary’ limbo, or perhaps ‘bunker’ is an apt term; meantime the people see through them and have moved on to the next stage of decolonization, in their minds as much as anything else. We are starting to smell freedom, ‘the fear of the oppressor’.

Instead of declaring independence, as the SNP should have done, with its nationalist majorities, the dominant national party has ‘opted for neutrality’ (Fanon), and hence for a co-operation with the colonial regime. It has decided to become what is known in postcolonial theory as part of ‘the legal tendency’ in what is a contested territory.

This ‘legal tendency’ serves as a major impediment to independence whilst the imperial power, its imperial parliament and its imperial laws and agencies regard independence as unlawful; which implies that the SNP is now effectively one of the main barriers to independence.

Republicofscotland

There was no union of the crowns all that happened was a Scottish king took the throne of England, the Scottish crown and the English crown are utterly incompatible, in England the monarch is sovereign in Scotland its the people.

England’s current king did not swear to uphold the Scottish Claim of Right, (If he did England wouldn’t be able to rob Scotland blind) so he is not the king of Scots. There is a English Crown Office and a Scottish Crown Office, both are separate, there is no British Crown Office.

Ruby Tuesday

Peter A Bell
Ignored
says:

Their whole demeanour suggests that they haven’t had a single fresh thought since maybe 2011. They really are clueless.

They’ve had a couple of fresh thoughts

1. Independence would be bad for their bank balances

2. Women have penises.

No 2 is a dream come true for ‘Better Together’ They are now trying to con people into thinking it’s only Independence supporters who believe this. Anas Sarwar is now claiming that women have vaginas and not penises. Although I think he’s till happy for women to have penises if they self-id.

Unionists are claiming the people of Scotland are too crazy to be able to govern their country look at the state of the SNP and their crazy ideas about women having penises etc. etc.

How racist can you get?

They seem to forget about the GRA 2004 which is a UK law which states people can change sex.

TURABDIN

I sincerely trust for Scotland’s sake this version of «togetherness» link to thenational.scot
is not the official view in Bute House.
We know there are many willing NATO/EU glove puppets in the neighbourhood their influence augurs ill.
The EU was in origin conceived as a third force between US/Nato & Soviet expansionism not as a rubber stamp for American global and hemispheric aims which it has now truly become.
Independence means deciding what is in the national interest. Jumping from one constricting union into a set of others, a potentially dangerous set, is its antithesis.
The Caucasus is no place for self righteous amateurs any more than those other current «hotspots»

Ruby Ruby

scottydog
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 9:14 am

Someone needs to start making the case because having a hard border with RUK doesn’t make economic sense

Hard border with the RUK has been done to death already. See debate between 2011 – 2014

No point suggesting the UK should be anything other than it is. England is more than happy with the current set-up.

They want us to stay!

Republicofscotland

Haud the bus we’re aw saved and independence is secured, our beloved coronated SNP FM Swinney has removed his SNP lapel badge and replaced d it with a Saltire badge.

An SNP insider said that Swinney wants to be more inclusive and that’s why he’s changed his lapel badge, Swinney can go a take flying f*&%.

Northcode

“Why can’t the UK be a union of equals?”

Because England has no equal.

England is the Alpha and Omega of the British Empire.

England’s arrogance, ‘superiority’ and sense of entitlement will never allow it to view the Treaty of Union as a partnership between equals – not ever.

The ToU is no more than a contract of employment given to a servant in England’s eyes.

“Let us discuss how the union between our two great nations might benefit both equally.” said Scotland.

“Treat the help as our equal? What a ridiculous notion – our Scottish servant appears to be in need of a good beating. ” replied England.

The Union is dead in the minds of the Scots; drowned to death in a 300 year-old lake of English pish. The Scots now only wait for its corpse to bob to the surface – just to make sure it’s really deid.

James Che

There are some frightening connections between the tactics of previous governments and the ones we are seeing evolve today,
Circles of organised hatred and rhetoric are becoming common place in todays government in Britain,
Comments like Separists and Extremists or even independence supporters stirs up that hatred to create a situation for governments to justify there next moves in legislation,

” Genocide never just happens, There is always a set of Circumstances which is created to build a climate in which extermination can take place usually through government propaganda, persecution and legislation”.

If you swap the Jewish name tags of “Sara” or ” Isreal” given by germans to jews in the 1930s for the name tags “Extremists”, “Separatists” or ” independent supporters” to separate the idea of the nation of Scotlands behaviour – from that of the rest of Britain behaviour as they did with the jews in Germany, with propaganda and persecution,and later through legislation.

The connotations and practices of the British governments legislation over Scotland and rhetoric such as Rushi Sunaks Speech builds the climate for Scots to be ostracised and down graded in the same prepared and planned manner that Jews were in the 1930s,

The Circles of organised hate has long been propergated within the UK government towards Scotland,
And the hatred is becoming publically more in the open in this decade with Boris Johnsons copy publishing of a racist poem to Rushi Sunaks comments to create a climate for legislation,
The Third Reich governance has moved to Britain,
All we need now is for that government to issue ID cards with a big “S” on them instead of “J”.

TURABDIN

The words facile and patronizing occur in this article link to archive.ph as does independence.
Plainly, interpretation depends on perspective.
Old imperialist habits, albeit refashioned into notions of protection from the tyranny of the «other», still persist under the humanitarian veil.

Dan

@ Breeks

Aye, housing is becoming ever more of a joke for many with the extortionate cost of building land and then the dubious quality of homes being built on said land.
Eva touches on this point, and also mentions the resultant symptoms of folk that struggle to get by and how it affects our society.

link to oneleggedwomanspeaks.uk

Due to hellish winter weather and ever more useless bus services in my locale, for the past 6 months I have been assisting an addict so they could get to their daily appointments and get their shopping.
This has given them some structure and social contact in their life which has been very beneficial and stopped them getting drawn into more harmful stuff.
On occasion we stop the car on the journey home and do a quick roadside litter pick or other task like clearing road gullies to drain the flooded roads.
It has progressed their recovery to the point they have passed drug tests showing they have not been abusing other substances, and have now been moved to a bi-weekly dispensing program rather than daily.
It’s little steps and we’ll just have to see if further progression can be made. There is the looming stress of life upheaval for them in the not to distant future due to potentially losing their current housing.
In the many different conversation we have had, housing is a prominent discussion point. They would be very happy to live in a converted container house. Before anyone gets too dismissive of the idea go and look at some of the container houses and tell me they don’t look great.

Dan

Correction. Not bi-weekly, meant to say twice a week.

James Che

New legislation for Scotland?

Alister Jack, conservative and unionist party, Secretary of State for Scotland has already suggested that the House of Lords has a committee for looking at Scotlands laws.

Regardless of what they are connected to, Westminster keeps changing and repealing “Scots law” as if it was not part of the agreement of the treaty of union.

TURABDIN

American imperialism is the spawn of the British variety. WWI may be considered the moment of that spawning. Soon after the British imperium went into rapid decline.
However, the old supremacist bad habits, including the maudlin sentimentality connected with anglosaxon notions of freedom, were passed on.
The USA stands at the threshold of its own decline. Will it take a WWIII to trigger the moment?
Scots, nominal nationalists, might pause to ponder why they should engage in that historic moment.
Independence is a word with seemingly a wide lexical field of interpretations.

James Che

Dan,

I always look at the Tiny homes videos on youtube, and the include container builds, although iI like the more wooden builds myself,

I would down size in a flash if I had a decent garden to go to, not one of those crappie postage stamp sized gardens where one sneeze and you bash your head on the wall ,
A garden is hard work but very therapeutic.
Still growing our own veg and fruit for the table, as well as keeping fit,
I would not give that up for all the world, it has been my refuge and peace from all medical issues and madness of DWP, and the large assortment of appointments.

except I bet my new short assured tenancy agreement on a tiny home , would not be so favourable as my old 1988 one,
And I would be dumped in a strange town or high rise flat, at government departments convenience,
This is all down to maladministration and bad policies and inhumane tactics of corporations,

But with the right programme of fairness and equal exchange on tenancy agreements along with a garden I would give up my three bedroomed house for a tiny one bedroomed house, which I always liked even as a youngster,
We have always lived in big houses from old three story inns, old mill houses to church houses, the cosiness of a smaller house always appealed,

Northcode

“We are starting to smell freedom, ‘the fear of the oppressor’ ”

Aye, Alf. There’s no doubt the anti-Scots rhetoric coming out of England and from supporters of the ‘Union’ is beginning to ramp up. A typical sign of fear in a bully in my experiences growing up in rough and tough industrial Glasgow.

I’ve always thought of the political posturing from both sides of the independence argument as the contestants squaring up and jabbing fingers at each other before the ‘real fight’ kicks off.

Some might know of a poem called ‘Thinking’ written by Walter D. Wintle.

This is my version of Wintle’s poem. Given as a wee pep talk for the ‘real fight’ that is fast approaching – if it isn’t already upon us:

If we think we are beaten, we are;
If we think we dare not, we don’t.
If we’d like to win, but we think we can’t,
It is almost certain we won’t.

If we think we’ll lose, we’ve lost;
For out in this world we find
Success begins with a people’s will
It’s all in our state of mind.

If we think we’re outclassed, we are;
We’ve got to think high to rise.
We’ve got to be sure of ourselves before
We can ever win the prize.

Life’s battles don’t always go
To the stronger or faster clan;
But sooner or later a people who win
Are a people who think they can!

Everything achieved by humankind in the entire history of humankind was preceded by thought.

Thinking comes first and the manifestation of those thoughts in what we call reality follows on behind. Cars and washing machines and all the rest of it don’t just pop into existence without first being thought of.

So get to thinking that Scotland’s liberation is inevitable – we’re just waiting for it to manifest in our reality.

Chas

Maybe if there was some signs of competence from our current Government then the electorate might form the collective opinion that Scotland could run it’s own affairs.

Until that happens the majority of the electorate simply do not want Independence for fear of what would follow.

The 0.5% of the electorate, I am being extremely generous, who post on here every day, on their pet subjects of ancient history, colonialism, claim of rights, sovereignty, MI5 etc are not in tune with the vast majority of Scots. However our brave posters simply cannot or are unwilling to accept that they are in the minority and produce the same bilge every day. ‘It’s jist no fair’ is the war cry.

I suppose it keeps them off the streets and away from innocent weans.

stuart mctavish

If they’re genuinely serious about scrapping the defacto ref and becoming full time Devo administrators, they probably need to get a better handle on the dodgy deals that benefit England at most Scots expense

eg setting aside any technical argument in favour of new nuclear, if the new plant(s) is intended mainly to feed power back to England, the budget for planning should be counted as an English expense (and not part of Alister Jack/ SOC Scotland brief in ANY event).

Ditto the build cost – a fully functioning indy Scotland could once have been expected to procure European Pressure Reactors for similar price (and net benefit) as the Luxembourg based UPM subsidiary managed to acquire for Finland (about €2 billion) and not be tied into €40 billion PFI type contracts the English would happily sign us up to..

One bright side for all that, assuming the inflated price gets counted correctly as an English expense, is that the Barnet consequential could be enough to squirrel away a couple of secret ones for ourselves – and prepare for the future accordingly.
🙂

O/T shout out for Alf Baird who sounded great on radio this morning, I was thinking the Freeports can’t exclude local licensing & taxation so huge point in favour of the l(o?)ng big ship building strategy might be an import terminal in western Freeport and export terminal on the eastern one to profit from the European market over next 30 years or so.

Fully sold on the catamaran stuff otherwise (assuming accepting extra money to give crew first class accomodation can be agreed) though, and sometimes wonder what on earth can be stopping SG from opening (/subsidising the opening of) another yard on Clyde in order to get cracking ..

robertkknight

“There’s no doubt the anti-Scots rhetoric coming out of England and from supporters of the ‘Union’ is beginning to ramp up.”

All part of the grand plan to allow the rancid SNP to don its cloak of blue and white, lift its cardboard claymore skywards, and cry “Sons and daughters of Scotland, we need your votes!”

The electorate will then be driven cattle fashion to the polling stations and the same tired old SNP trope of “Scotland needs independence…just not yet.” will be regurgitated for another five years.

Scotland needs a political enema.

aLurker

stuart mctavish
says:
O/T shout out for Alf Baird who sounded great on radio this morning

If you post the link then the rest of us will be able to listen.
If you don’t have the link then at least if you say which radio station, which show/presenter and an approximate time then others who may go to the effort of searching for it may have a clue where to start.

😉

James Che

Northcode.

A beautiful poem at a appropiate time,
Thank you for posting it, I read it out to my Spouse.

Stevie

When is an independence party not an independence party : when it’s SNP.

An embarrassing hodge podge of mealy mouthed mumblings does not impress voters – either stand for something and stand up for it or fk off.

Breeks


Dan
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 10:30 am

…. Before anyone gets too dismissive of the idea go and look at some of the container houses and tell me they don’t look great.

The crap / blight of modern housing isn’t great, but all I see is (pardon the expression), Jerry built “emergency housing”, essentially the same as the disaster relief housing thrown up quickly after some natural disaster or devastation from war.

Get it thrown up quickly, cheaply, and adequate provision to contain the crisis as a stopgap until the “proper” housing can be built as part of the wider recovery.

Where it goes bananas is the inflated cost of this “throwaway” ephemeral style housing, and people expecting these shells to endure like more conventional bricks and mortar.

This last bit is where the racket really kicks in; crap that’s marketed at a premium rate, as luxurious investments, but built with cheap, production line banality, with predominantly unskilled labour.

Like I said, that’s ok when desperate people need shelter and a roof over their heads in a hurry, but such conditions should NOT be the everyday norm, nevermind the top end of the market.

What also needs looked at is the capacity for people to help themselves build their own dwellings. Maybe even having development zones where there can be big relaxations on standards, just to get somewhere to live and have an address, and take a lot of heat out the crisis.

I have a notion in my head that supposing some Native American wanted to live his life enjoying his cultural traditions, such as living in a Teepee just for an example, then he should be allowed to, shouldn’t he?

So what about a Scot? If I wanted to live in a traditional Blackhouse or 19th Century cottage, just like my ancestors, then why should I be prevented from doing so as my personal choice? Allow the “little people” an opt-out from the great property swindle.

Dan

@ James Che

Aye, a smaller property is just so much easier to live in for numerous reasons. EG. Cost buy, cost to heat, effort to clean, maintenance upkeep to name but a few.
Reduced costs and effort to keep maintained also frees up time to do other more enjoyable or fulfilling and valued life stuff.

I had planning permission for a 3 / 4 bedroom house on a plot and the norm was to have 3 toilets on a property that size. But I’ve got better things to do with my life than pay for 3 toilets I won’t need and keep all those rooms clean, so didn’t bother with the build and just kept the muckle garden instead to grow my veg and hoard all manner of junk that I use to fix and build stuff for myself and my neighbours. No need for a TV when nearly everyday is like an episode of Scrapheap Challenge sorting neighbours’ busted lawnmowers and the like!
Good to hear you’re still managing to put a regular shift into your own garden with all the other life stuff you have going on.
Past few weeks the weather and temps have improved so busy getting everything planted out now. My tomato plants look good this year and are already bigger than the ones in the village oldtimers’ greenhouses. My tom plants, like all my other seedlings are potted in compost generated from my wormery.
Still munching my way through various jams, chutneys and pickled beetroot I made last year so that also keeps food costs down.
I do buy oats though, at least until our mental “government” ban them… #OatClub

The Flying Iron of Doom

Breeks says:
16 May, 2024 at 2:00 am

There’s a saying, when playing Monopoly, if nobody builds houses / hotels, nobody loses and everybody gets richer.

I don’t get it – how does that work assuming that you haven’t dispensed with the rule which allows the banker to create further wealth ex nihilo simply by writing £20 or whatever on scraps of paper and then using those in the game? 😕

Casper1066

She is like these people who think Scotland was invented in 1707.

stuart mctavish

Lurker @11:51

Here ye go, at about 2hours 41 minute mark (can’t add the time stamp & not sure if it’s a permanent link*, Sorry)

link to bbc.co.uk

* On plus side there’s (currently) none of that “due to broadcasting rights” we’re no letting you hear the football, that I admit to getting on occasion.

Dan

@ Breeks

We know conventional modern built housing is shite and just an extortion racket.
And that there is now a housing emergency kind of hints that the conventional modern house building system isn’t fit for purpose…
My point about a dwelling built out of shipping containers is that it is a viable alternative for some to the crap current system.
Shipping containers are robust units of standard sizes and this means they are easy to convert and build modular units with.

There aren’t enough folk with the skills or motivation to build proper traditional Scottish stone built housing anymore, and even if there were, the material and labour costs you’d need to pay someone to build a house would be sky high. I’m doing my own stonework with lime mortar, and my own Scottish slate work for exactly that reason.
I’m all for relaxed planning regs to open the way for other more affordable housing options. The current straitjacket of rules and regs is a joke. Like telling everyone we all need to reduce our energy usage to save the planet when they won’t even allow us to fit double glazing in some properties…

Confused

– this one is interesting; the kanaks are rioting because the french are being allowed to vote after 10 years residence
link to theguardian.com

when you get your stuff back (on loan)
link to bbc.com

– when do we get ours back?

David Hannah

That BBC news Pidgin service can’t be for real? I’m confused!

Tinto Chiel

@Confused: interesting article about the situation in New Caledonia. Colonists gotta colonise, innit?

Hope this archived version works to reduce clicks for the MSM:

link to web.archive.org

James

“the kanaks are rioting because the french are being allowed to vote after 10 years residence”

Better not tell Franchise Fanny….

Confused

I thought the pidgin service was some racist-trolling/chris-morris satire, but it appears to be legit.

– lot’s of good things on it; the nigerians, despite being big oil producers, lack refining capacity and have currency problems. Now they are going to use their own pension fund to shore up their economy. When you see these parallels, you realise, as far as colonial/neo-colonial/neoliberalism, goes, we are all in the same boat.

Ghana and Uganda have also been feeling the heat about the LGTBQ+ agenda – but have shown a lot of balls in fighting it.

Niger, just told the yanks to fuck off out of their country; the us ambassador was coming round and telling their prez who he could and not talk to (business deals with china), so he told her to sling it.

The kanaks : the “10 year residence” rule for the kanaks is an expansion of the franchise, while for us it would be a restriction, which is often hysterically argued here, by the little englanders.

– the kanaks know the new rules are designed to destroy their independence movement forever, and they are not going to take it. While we await our census results and some highland games have the feel of a home counties gymkhana.

Confused

yeah, pidgin, forgot to add, it can be really really funny in “diverse ways”-

witch doctors in ghana have been making peoples cocks disappear

link to bbc.com

stonewall and mermaids are monitoring the situation carefully; could be a lot cheaper than western style transitioning surgery, though the witch doctors typical fee – the liver of an albino – quite hard to source.

Republicofscotland

With the SNP and the LA and a few Judges in Scotland wanting to bang up more folk via juryless trials, it would appear that the prisons in Scotland are bursting at the seams, and cons serving under four years jail time will probably be let out due to many prisoners in the system.

The immediate increase in prisoners that’s burst the system wide open is more than likely down to the draconian and very unjust Hate Crime Laws that were forced upon Scots by MSPs without our input.

“Criminals serving sentences under four years could be released from prison due to a “critical” rise in people behind bars.

SNP Justice Secretary Angela Constance said the threshold for “emergency release” had been reached, but said sex offenders would not qualify.

In a statement at Holyrood, Constance informed MSPs that the prison population had risen from 7,948 to 8,348.

She said the immediate cause of the 400 increase was unclear, but said a “critical risk” was now posed to the bursting prison estate.

She said the rise was curbing the Scottish Prison Service’s ability to deliver rehabilitative schemes and making prison visits difficult.

One response will be activating the Ministerial power of releasing prisoners in emergency situations.”

Dan

link to kennymacaskillmp.scot

I like that Kenny keeps pushing the discussion on energy. However I sometimes think he lacks a bit of wider consideration on potential ways forward.
For instance, this notion that we currently produce more than we need wouldn’t necessarily be the case if the ever growing abundance of leccy created by renewables in Scotland’s geographic area was put to better use here.
A lot of fossil fuel derived energy is still being used to heat our water and homes through the use of heating oil and gas. So why not promote initiatives that make use of the surplus of energy produced by renewable sources, and taper off the use of fossil fuels.
What is the point of the greenwashing activity of fitting all these solar PV arrays and ASHPs when there is already a robust and discreet delivery system through our existing leccy grid infrastructure capable of providing cleaner energy to nearly every property connected to the grid in Scotland.
It’s like nobody considers the significant additional amounts of energy used in the industrial manufacturing processes, import shipping, and installation of all these “planet saving” kits that will do well to last 10 years without failure.

Get better control over the pricing of energy, insulate properties so they are more thermally efficient to reduce energy demands, heat them with leccy produced by renewables through the existing grid.
Stop being distracted by pie in the sky tech shite.

Vivian O’Blivion

Ashcroft poll, field work 9 – 13 May. Westminster voting intention, Scottish sub-sample (477) half population of regular, full poll. (Change from 2019 GE)
Con 13% seats 7 (+1)
Lab 29% seats 31 (+30)
LibDem 13% seats 5 (+3)
SNP 24% seats 14 (-34)
Green 13%
RefUK 7%

Republicofscotland

So the millionaire knight of the realm and leader of the Labour party and avid g_e_n-oci-de supporter Sir Keir Starmer has pledged to eradicate child poverty in the UK but he’s said he won’t scrap the two-child benefit cap.

Does anyone actually believe a word this lying b*stards says anymore.

Vivian O’Blivion

Since we’re discussing the voting franchise in New Caledonia, ?just five sleeps ‘till the release of the next tranche of 2022 census data. This will include “Ethnic group, national identity, language and religion”. With current polls indicating an appropriate 4% margin of victory for No, this data should allow us to make an assessment of how things stand with autochthonous Scots.

Ruby Tuesday

Chas
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 11:19 am

Maybe if there was some signs of competence from our current Government then the electorate might form the collective opinion that Scotland could run it’s own affairs.

Until that happens the majority of the electorate simply do not want Independence for fear of what would follow.

However our brave posters simply cannot or are unwilling to accept that they are in the minority and produce the same bilge every day. ‘It’s jist no fair’ is the war cry.

This is the new ‘Better Together’ mantra.

They claim the current SG prove that the people of Scotland are incapable of running their own affairs.

How racist can you get?

What does the current UK Gov tell us?

Does anyone ask if there is anyone in England capable of running the country?

Chas happy to vote No because of the sterling performance of current UK Gov?

Ever wondered how the likes of Chas & Andy Ellis know what the majority of the Scottish electorate want?

Yer man Chas has a cheek to talk about others posting bilge.

Northcode

I’ve seen a few comments describing the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right and other historical constitutional documents and legal instruments as ancient guff. I disagree.

Scots history is important.

Scots history is important because it forms the continuous sequence of past ‘nows’ that lead to the current now we all live in and see around us.

Scots history is important because it isn’t something separate from now. It’s a bigger picture; an aerial view of now.

Scots history is important because knowing it helps us understand how Scotland and the Scots arrived at this moment, this ‘now’ in continuous time, where the Scots as a people along with their nation and unique cultural history are on the verge of extinction.

Scottish Independence isn’t about money. It’s about the survival of a people and the future generations of that people.

And when survival is at stake all the money and riches and wealth in the world don’t matter a single hoot.

Because even in some universe where hoots might be the most valuable and rarest of things, life is almost certainly going to be infinitely more valuable and infinitely rarer.

Only once the immediate threat to survival is overcome do the practicalities of staying alive become paramount.

Of course, we’re not talking of survival at an individual level; even if independence is denied them life will carry on for Scots in some diminished form or other. Just not as sovereign Scots, or as Scots at all, perhaps, or as their own people with their own culture in their own land.

The most likely outcome if independence is denied the Scots is their continuation as assimilated second class citizens in some other, alien, culture not their own.

Ruby Tuesday

autochthonous

I had to look that up

autochthonous
1.(of an inhabitant of a place) indigenous rather than descended from migrants or colonists.
“newly colonized islands hitherto inhabited by autochthonous people”

That’s a good word.

Just need to find out how it’s pronounced.

[…] blogs, just to see what I’d missed out on. I generally scroll past much of the content on Wings Over Scotland these days, specifically the bin-fire that is Gender Reform. Not that I don’t have an […]

Ruby

It’s Greek!

The root of the word autochthonous traces back to the Greek word autokhthon, meaning literally “sprung from the land itself.” Something that’s autochthonous doesn’t have to really spring from the land, but it might seem like it’s been there forever, almost as long as the land.

What are the root words of autochthonous?
Their word for any true-born Athenian, “autochth?n,” itself springs from “auto-,” meaning “self,” and “chth?n,” meaning “earth.”

Alf Baird

Confused @ 2:40 pm

“witch doctors in ghana”

This is not so far fetched. Colonialism is known to use ‘witch doctors, chiefs and caids’ as confidential agents to manipulate and scare the masses who are ‘steeped in a changeless ever-recurring life without incident’ (Fanon).

Here the dominant national party makes itself look busy by implementing laws that are increasingly impossible to explain logically based on little more than voodoo which ‘mystify the people’, while attempting to cover its tracks over the lack of any progress on independence.

Several SNP pieces of legislation seem to come into this ‘witch doctor’ category.

Ruby Tuesday

Northcode
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 3:37 pm

I’ve seen a few comments describing the Treaty of Union and the Claim of Right and other historical constitutional documents and legal instruments as ancient guff. I disagree.

Scots history is important.

Unionist don’t want to know! They prefer to imagine Scotland began in 1707.

Don’t mention Scotland being a colony that drives them potty.

Not keen on hearing about how ‘Scotland invented the modern world’ either.

Anton Decadent

There’s a new Shauny Boy up on YT for those interested.

David Hannah

Watching the Silver Fox Hot takes & Craig Houston talks.

Whistleblowing Nurse – Lesley Roberts – due to speak to the Covid Inquiry on the 22nd spoke about corporate homicide.

Euthanasia with palliative drugs during Covid 19.

The Shipman sisters – Jean Freeman & Nicola Sturgeon – gave the orders!

The £200 million covid inquiry is a disgrace. It’s not an inquiry without the truth being spoken by Lesley Roberts.

You need to get this woman on the phone – her story has been pulled by the newspapers.

The establishment are trying to silence her – reading the comments she’s now not allowed to give evidence to the inquiry!

This is disgraceful. Sturgeon will have a super injunction on this story. Her protectors Dorothy Bain will be trying their best to cover up her tracks.

Corporate Homocide. LET LESLEY SPEAK! INVESTIGATE THIS COVER UP!

Rob

What is a real scot?
Even in Scotland there are different Scottish identities.
Is a real scot Gaelic speaking, I hope not as I may have lived on the west coast for about 12 years but I don’t speak gaelic.
Is it a scots speaking lowlander, probably OK there as I was brought up in Glasgow.
is it a Highlander, well despite living in the highlands for about the last 12 years I wouldn’t consider myself one of the miserable B’tards.
Or is it the northern islanders where I spend a lot of time, they don’t speak gaelic and are of general Danish Descent and have a little bit of nordic blood in them. I seem to get on fine with them 🙂
And thats before even thinking about the Doric folk who I don’t know much about as I can’t understand them.
Who is a scot?

Geoff Anderson

Greens having a clear out of any normal people
link to x.com

James Che

Alf Baird,

4:07 pm.

I am not sure these laws being passed as “Scots laws” under a Westminster administration sent to Scotland could be classed as Scots laws if the parliament is the administration of Westminster,

The Scottish parliament was dissolved in 1707, and as far as can be ascertained that has never been repealed or reopened,

It is not a Scottish parliament, it is a rolled down devolved parliament from Westminster
Legislation.

If Scotland did have a real Scottish parliament with no reservations from Westminster legislation , do you think we would still be in the treaty of union?

Hatey McHateface

It’s great to see all this concern for the people of Scotland and their traditions surfacing. I take it this suspiciously newly found interest has some kind of bad polling figures as its root cause.

Anybody want to comment on the list of Scottish kings and queens, stretching from Kenneth I in 843, up to (with a few interruptions) James VI, who went off to rule England as well in 1603? Scotland as an enthusiastic royalist stronghold is the historic reality, although you will never find that out by reading on here.

Let me guess – our traditions are just another pick’n’mix banquet for those with axes to grind.

Looking at you in particular, RepublicOfScotland.

Which brings me to your post of 3:19.

How many autochthonous Scots have more than two kids anyway? The ones with big families are mostly immigrants, starting with our recently departed Dear Leader and working down from there. I don’t lose any sleep over people whom I don’t want in the country to start with, who choose to have too many kids, and then expect others to pay for them.

That’s something else our cultural heritage would teach anybody who was really interested. As recently as a century ago, say to any decent working class Scotsman he couldn’t put food on the table and a roof over their heads for his wife and kids and he would have knocked you flat for the insult.

Still not jenoside either, but you’ve invested too much in that lie to change your song now.

Hatey McHateface

@Rob says: 16 May, 2024 at 4:57 pm

The Northern Islanders shift for themselves.

Those in the Central Belt sit around waiting for hand outs, although it’s graduated, with the loudest whinging in the west. That could be because most of those in the east are English.

The Borderers look with longing to the south. They want to get back to their historic tradition of being part of Northumbria. That’s why it’s solid Tory voters from sea to shining sea on this side of the border.

That just leaves the Gaelic speakers. I think myself they just want to be left alone to enjoy their Celtic Twilight in their own way.

Scotland as a unitary entity is just as much a fallacy as is the UK itself. When the fission does start, the chances of Scotland herself splitting up seems just logical to me.

But to even mention that on here, let alone discuss it, is the purest form of heresy known.

Andy Ellis

@Rob 4.57

Who is a scot?

I don’t have much time for Ruth Wishart, but like most Scots I applaud her sentiment from 2012:

A Scot is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is no friend of the independence movement, whether their motivation is simple xenophobia or to cast the nationalist movement in a bad light.

Ruby Tuesday

Rob
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 4:57 pm

What is a real scot?
Even in Scotland there are different Scottish identities.
Is a real scot Gaelic speaking, I hope not as I may have lived on the west coast for about 12 years but I don’t speak gaelic.
Is it a scots speaking lowlander, probably OK there as I was brought up in Glasgow.
is it a Highlander, well despite living in the highlands for about the last 12 years I wouldn’t consider myself one of the miserable B’tards.
Or is it the northern islanders where I spend a lot of time, they don’t speak gaelic and are of general Danish Descent and have a little bit of nordic blood in them. I seem to get on fine with them ?
And thats before even thinking about the Doric folk who I don’t know much about as I can’t understand them.

Who is a scot?

Did you check the meaning of autochthonous?

A Scot is indigenous rather than descended from migrants or colonists.

Do you know what a native American or a Aboriginal Australia is? A Scot is similar.

Get it?

I don’t know much about the Aboriginal Australia but the Native American like the Scots speak different languages and have different tribes it’s probably the same for Aboriginal Australians.

You have these terms like ‘New Australians’ and ‘New Scots’ Not too sure if the term ‘New Americans’ is used.

The term ‘New Scots’ is a relatively new term. That just means they aren’t autochthonous Scots. I don’t know who came up with the term ‘New Scots’ but it seems similar to me as the claim that ‘trans women are women’

Hope that helped.

Perhaps you could tell me

Who is a Brit? What is British culture?

Andy Ellis

@Hatey 5.42pm

I think the prospect of Scotland being Balkanised post indy is more of a unionist trope than close to any actual desire by the folks in the Borders or Shetland to exclude themselves from the new state should it come to pass.

I doubt there’s much reliable polling evidence, but the last one I saw referred to for the Northern Isles (which was done by the P&J some years before indyref1)showed a supermajority of inhabitants would vote to stay part of Scotland rather than remain part of the UK or declare UDI.

I suspect the islanders would be much better advised to seek a Faroe Islands style deal? As an exclave within an independent Scotland’s EEZ the Shetlands (or the Northern Isles collectively) would have no EEZ of their own, so would have limited resources.

As for the Borderers, when it comes to it I doubt very much they find the prospect of Rory Stewart’s resurrected Middleland that attractive or plausible. Again it sounds much more like British nationalist wish fulfilment than anything with a political, intellectual or social hinterland.

Andy Ellis

Odd that all of the wee nativists bigots getting excited about their newly found go-to term autochthonous haven’t twigged that if the definition of Scots excludes those descended from “migrants and colonists”, there’s an awfy lot of New Scots with Irish antecedents that might want to have a word with them.

Many of them arrived relatively recently…in fact often more recently than many of the Scots colonists who became Australians, Canadians, Americans and Kiwis.

Perhaps it’s OK if it’s only part of your indigenous bloodline…? I’m sure there’s a term for it…?

Mischling wasn’t it….?

twathater

It appears the Roddick dumbo and even Alex Salmond in their haste to facilitate a union of countries which is not actually a union of countries it’s jist called somfin else, have forgotten about our reparations for all the resources stolen from Scotland and Scots
I think Alex and Emma have forgotten that engerland doesn’t like to pay its debts, in fact it will do anything to AVOID paying it’s debts just ask the eu or France ,so maybe this unifying collective friendship that they both desire so much with engerland might not seem as desirable as they think

But maybe Alex and Emma are thinking that we Scots who are forever being told by our indulgent neighbours that we are TOO WEE,TOO POOR and TOO STUPID,and that we are constantly subsidised by them because we are nothing but beggars should maybe just forget about any reparations from the hundreds of years of theft and pillage that our friendly neighbours have forced on us because they are really our best buds and it is just BANTER

Alf Baird

Andy Ellis @ 5:48 pm

“A Scot is … anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.”

Liberal Imperialism does not appear to have gone down too well elsewhere:

link to web.archive.org

James Che

Alf Baird

Couldn’t agree with you more than I do, the whole wee pretendy parliament is voodoo, mythical and full of ….itch doctors spouting imaginary Scots laws.

But I do get exasparated when Scottish people speak of Holyrood as if it were a Scottish parliament entirely from a unoinist point of view.

It is a down grade a and a Colonial admin.

Republicofscotland

“I think the prospect of Scotland being Balkanised post indy is more of a unionist trope”

To be precise its George Robertson’s BS, which he uttered just prior to the 2014 indyref, I thought you being a die-hard Atlanticists the same as Robertson, would’ve know that.

——————-

“Odd that all of the wee nativists bigots”

Really, a touch of the Sunak in that poor statement, of Brexit wasn’t that about the nativist bigots taking back control and don’t mention the boat people.

Salmond made one big mistake he enfranchised everyone and their dogs on a one off constitutional vote of which many countries don’t give a constitutional vote to folk not born in that country, if he hadn’t made such a blundering error we’d have been long shot of the bucket of shit union as Scots voted yes in 2014.

Andy Ellis

@Vivian 3.23 pm

I wonder how many of the 80 odd percent of the populations who ARE indigenes we have to persuade to grow a pair and vote Yes, or even to turn up and vote, to offset the few percent of non-indigenes who will vote No?

Of course the relevance of New Caledonia to our case seems rather opaque, given that it is clearly a case of decolonisation, appears on the UN’s list of non-self governing territories, and has a total population of around 270,000 of which native Kanaks now comprise only 41%.

Andy Ellis

@Alf Baird 6.18 pm

The Scotland = New Caledonia false equivalence gets no more convincing for the constant fluffing it receives from the usual suspects Alf.

Get back to us when the UN adds Scotland to the list, hmmmnn?

Northcode

“Who is a Brit? What is British culture?”

Those are good questions, Ruby Tuesday. I wonder if you’ll get an answer.

Republicofscotland

A (BLiS) British Labour in Scotland councillor in Glasgow looks to be in a wee bit of trouble here.

“A LABOUR politician who quit amid a probe into her son being awarded work by a housing association she sat on the board of is facing a standards complaint.

Glasgow Labour councillor Elaine McDougall quit the board of Milnbank Housing Association amid an investigation into the circumstances of her son Gary being contracted for work by the organisation, sharing in a £4 million funding framework.

The contracts were awarded by Milnbank Housing Association to McDougall’s son Gary’s company in 2017, which was registered at her home address in Dennistoun.

A subsequent investigation found “no evidence” she had declared or managed the conflict of interest.

It also found that the housing association had subsequently changed its rules to allow businesses run by family members of people involved with the organisation to be awarded contracts.”

Northcode

James Che

“Thank you for posting it, I read it out to my Spouse”

Just noticed this earlier comment of yours, James. I hope your spouse enjoyed your reading.

Dorothy Devine

Geoff Anderson , have they been ousted or have they walked ? There was certainly talk of unrest in the ranks.

I noticed 4 undesirables in the front of that photo.

Northcode , loved your poem.

Andy Ellis

@RoS 6.49pm

You cannae get a fag paper between the little Englander gammons who circle jerked so furiously for brexit for so long that they poisoned enough Tories to vote for it, and the xenophobic nativists bigots trying to strangle civic nationalism in Scotland.

Salmond, like most Scots, only has scorn for those advocating franchise restriction and blood and soil ethnic purity tests.

You’re still doing that thing bigots do: trying to deflect from the fact that the vast majority of self determination referendums since WW2 used the same, or more liberal, franchises than ours in 2014.

The franchises for elections or constitutional votes in already independent states are a whole different ball game. No matter how often your intellectual dishonesty is pointed out, you just keep banging on. It remains utter bollocks of course.

James Barr Gardner

It’s Norwegian DNA that’s found in Ireland, Scotland, the Isle on Man, Iceland, Faroe Islands and Greenland.

Danish DNA can be traced on the Western coast of France and the Eastern side of England, if the genocide had not been carried out by the English on St Brice’s Day there would have been a lot more Danish DNA in England !

Republicofscotland

Thanks for the link Alf. 6.18pm.

A facet of colonialism at work mind you the French are in the process of being booted out of umpteen African countries and not before time.

“Rioting began this week before politicians in Paris – 10,600 miles (17,000 km) away – voted on a bill to allow French residents who have lived in New Caledonia for 10 years the right to vote in provincial elections. Some local leaders fear this change would dilute the share of the vote held by Kanaks, the Indigenous group that makes up about 41% of the population and the major force in the pro-independence movement.”

Like the Kanaks, Scots should not be letting a foreign country decide anything for it people. Local leaders are correct to worry, the English flooded Wales and although Welsh folk voted against Brexit the incomers vote made it look like the Welsh voted for Brexit when they didn’t.

The flooding process is well underway in Scotland from folk South of the border, I foresee the Kanaks eventually taking up arms in resistance against their colonial masters and who could blame them.

Big Jock

Just for clarity. 17% of Scotlands population were born outwith Scotland. To claim its a few percent is entirely dissengenuous.

If 80% of them voted no, as they did in 2014. Then that’s nearly 14% added to the no vote. The difference between 36% and 50%. This has a fundamental effect on any referendum result.

Its why the right on civic nationalism group ignore it ,or suggest it doesn’t matter. Because they know in their hearts it actually changes everything.

Is it my job as a Scot to convince non Scots to free my country? I think not.

Republicofscotland

“Salmond, like most Scots, only has scorn for those advocating franchise restriction and blood and soil ethnic purity tests.”

So other nations that don’t enfranchise everyone (foreigners) on constitutional votes are in your eyes blood and soil countries. Good luck with trying to convince folk of that you’ll need it.

————-

“The franchises for elections or constitutional votes in already independent states are a whole different ball game.”

Really?

You’re not going to dig out that tired old paper written by some Spanish guy that has now eight whatsoever again are you.

Big Jock

Andy you do know that you will never achieve independence with the 2014 franchise. As long as you are comfortable never seeing independence! But at least you can polish your halo until you die.

I am not a bigot for pointing out the reality. I prefer reality to delusional pipe dreams of a utopian velvet divorce.

Ruby Tuesday

Many of them arrived relatively recently…in fact often more recently than many of the Scots colonists who became Australians, Canadians, Americans and Kiwis.

Are you referring to nationality or ethnicity?

It would be more relevant to the discussion if you claimed these Scots colonists became Aborigines, Native Americans or
Maori.

What’s wrong with being Irish? Why would they want to transition to being New Scots.

Who is an Australian, American or New Zealander?

Republicofscotland

“Just for clarity. 17% of Scotlands population were born outwith Scotland. To claim its a few percent is entirely dissengenuous.”

Interesting point, however the criteria should be one of that you must live and work in Scotland, in my opinion casting a vote from say Australia, Canada South Africa etc is not on.

Incidentally have you ever noticed that if you live in another country say Spain or France that you are classed as an expat and not an emigrant, but everyone else from every other country is either an immigrant or emigrant, that’s the old English imperialist mindset at play there.

Big Jock

Andy and stop calling people nativists. Most of my ancestors are of Irish origin. But I was born in Scotland ,third generation Scot.

But I think only people born and living or living in Scotland since early childhood should get a vote. Why? Because we have invested all our lives in this nation. We understand it, we are culturally Scots and have not just moved here to retire or die to a job.

Being Scottish is more than just residence.

Northcode

Alf Baird would have had to have stated that New Caledonia’s struggle for independence and Scotland’s were identical and one and the same before the claim of false equivalence could be made against him.

He merely provided a link to a news story about a people seeking their liberation from what remains of France’s South Pacific empire.

The indigenous Kanaks of New Caledonia have been struggling for their liberation from French colonial rule since the 1970s.

Similarities? Certainly. But nobody said they were the same. So no false equivalence.

Ruby Tuesday

Franchise Fanny has gone off on one again.

What the hell does the franchise have to do with the question ‘who is a Scot’

Who came up with the term ‘New Scot’?

Was it the same person who coined the term ‘transwomen are women’.

Englishmen are Scottish and women have penises.

Hatey McHateface

@Republicofscotland says: 16 May, 2024 at 6:49 pm

“Salmond made one big mistake”

Indeed he did. Her name is Sturgeon.

The mistake you’re writing about makes two.

Hatey McHateface

@ Andy Ellis says: 16 May, 2024 at 6:03 pm

“I think the prospect of Scotland being Balkanised post indy is more of a unionist trope than close to any actual desire by the folks in the Borders or Shetland to exclude themselves from the new state should it come to pass”

Possibly. Probably. It’s an unknown, but perhaps we could agree that what does happen will be contingent on events.

Be honest now. If you ever find yourself in an iScotland, mis-governed and mis-managed by dunderheids of the caliber of her whose mugshot adorns the top of this thread, would you absolutely refuse to listen to anybody who came along with a credible plan for your locality to secede?

Somebody famous said recently there’s going to be more changes in the next 5 years than there has been in the last 30. I think that’s a credible prediction.

Big Jock

I will be Scottish wherever I go. Why would I want to switch nationality,if I moved to England? Unless I was so ashamed of my native country that is.

Perhaps at the heart of many English in Scotland is a sense of shame , because they carry the baggage of that country.It’s the reason you only ever hear the name Hamish being given to the children of middle class incomers.Cultural appropriation, and it sounds contrived.

I feel that with the term British(shame).So I will correct anyone abroad or at home who
tries to call me British!

Hatuey

“Those in the Central Belt sit around waiting for hand outs, although it’s graduated, with the loudest whinging in the west…” (sic)

Glasgow has been carrying Scotland for centuries, as any basic economic history book will explain. It’s easy to throw the boot in now, as many in the north, south, and east are keen to do, forgetting how much they depended on handouts over the years from Glaswegians, but the dire state of Glasgow today is entirely down to decisions made elsewhere, particularly London.

It’s just more of the usual cowardly victim blaming…

Ruby Tuesday

Northcode
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 7:04 pm

“Who is a Brit? What is British culture?”

Those are good questions, Ruby Tuesday. I wonder if you’ll get an answer.

These are easy question. A Brit is someone with British nationality and that can be anyone from any part of the world and any culture. British culture is multi-cultural.

Maybe I should have asked Rob. Who is English and what is English culture.

I have asked that many times before but didn’t get many answers.

Are there people in England who are referred to as ‘New English’?

I’m wondering if Stu ever refers to himself as ‘New English’

sam

@Andy Ellis

“Professor McCorquodale also goes on to confirm that “the people of Scotland are distinct within the UK and have a right to self-determination.” (Paragraph 30) and “the right to self-determination applies to the people of Scotland” (Paragraph 6). He states: “As the people of Scotland are a people for the purposes of the right to self-determination, they can exercise it. The choice of the means to exercise is for the people to decide and not for the State.” (Paragraph 32). He explains that the UK as a signatory to multilateral international human rights treaties has “expressly accepted that the right to self-determination is a human right” (Paragraph 12) and “not just as an international legal principle – which is binding under international law on all States.” (Paragraph 14). He also asserts that that “secession is not unlawful under international law” (Paragraph 6).”

link to albaparty.org

Big Jock

Scotland does not have any large areas that are completely unionist, or nationalist.The stats are mixed. But at worst maybe 60% unionist in small pockets. So the Bulkinisation couldn’t gain any ground in these areas. This is scare tactics by project fear.

The truth is that most people in Scotland identify primarily as Scots. So an independent Scotland would not be a threat to their primary identity.

Indeed it is the British identity in decline , not the Scottish one.

Hatey McHateface

@Ruby Tuesday says:16 May, 2024 at 7:59 pm

‘who is a Scot’

Could be a trick question, but I’ll hazard a guess.

Is it somebody with three online identities?

Hatey McHateface

@ Big Jock says: 16 May, 2024 at 8:23 pm

“I will correct anyone abroad or at home who tries to call me British!”

If one day we read of you banged up in some foreign shithole prison for immigration irregularities we’ll know what happened.

Big Jock

I don’t have a passport. Regardless. Just because I would be forced to do so does not make me British.

Were the Irish always Irish? Or were they British because of an enforced political identity. The passport argument has been done to death , and it’s utter bullshit. It’s the default mechanism for low level debate.

There is no nation called Britain.

dasBlimp

Ruby Tuesday
Ignored says:
16 May, 2024 at 8:36 pm
Northcode
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 7:04 pm

Who is English and what is English culture.

ooh ooh ooh please Miss I know this one miss…

-English people are born in England and they drink tea and eat fish and chips
-play cricket and dance around maypoles like sissy fannys
-care and know nothing about England except in the context of football
-like to moan a lot about the weather
-Turn every international holiday hotspot into a shitty little ingerland
-Play act as the big man but are really cowards
-Take pride in not knowing any foreign language and
-willingly tug their forelocks at posh people and think the king is great and he makes them proud.
-In short, a bunch of spineless cunts… and I should know –

I am one.

Ruby Ruby

John Main with his two monikers is jealous because I have four monikers & counting.

I don’t think anyone has been fooled into thinking ‘Ruby, Ruby’ ‘Ruby Tuesday’ ‘Ruby Wednesday’ or just plain Ruby are different people.

Ach maybe they have!

Others may not have the ‘No Shit Sherlock’ detective skills of John Main aka Hatey McHateface

I have four monikers but I’m not trying to fool anyone but someone with four monikers as distinct as Andy Ellis, John Main, Chas & Hatey McHate yer face might be trying to con you into thinking they are four different posters who all know exactly what the majority of the Scottish electorate think and who all agree with one another.

Andy Ellis

@Big Jock 7.37pm

Its why the right on civic nationalism group ignore it ,or suggest it doesn’t matter. Because they know in their hearts it actually changes everything.

Civic nationalist still make up the vast majority of the movement. You and yer wee coterie of xenophobes and nativists would be better using some of the spittle flecked rage to persuade more native born Scots to vote Yes. 52% is piss poor.

It doesn’t change everything, because neither you nor any of the other moonhowlers know what the adverse impact on the Yes vote would have been if you’d gotten your way before 2014. For all you know it would have reduced the Yes vote.

The relatively small percentages you’re concerned about could be swamped by the simple expedient of persuading more of the 48% of native born Scots who voted No to switch, and by increasing turnout.

Both of these could and would be practically easier and morally more defensible than breaking with international norms and disenfranchising random numbers of fellow Scots because you don’t consider them ethnically pure enough.

Big Jock

Love it Das Blimp. You know your nation so well. Lol.

Geri

Big Jock

“Is it my job as a Scot to convince non Scots to free my country? I think not.”

Exactly. Well said..

Alf Baird

Andy Ellis @ 6:57 pm

“The Scotland = New Caledonia false equivalence”

On the contrary, Macron’s crude attempts at ‘civic nationalism’ appear designed to keep the vote in favour of French rule, and therefore the usurper, hence the conflict.

Ruby Tuesday

My advice to anyone of Irish descent is to get yourself an Irish passport if there is any risk of you being in trouble while abroad.

Andy Ellis

@Sam 8.37 pm

It’s a good statement of the position in international law. It is earnestly to be hoped that the movement will use the route proposed by Alex Salmond of plebiscitary elections.

Sadly I fear it’s too late to do anything about the Westminster elections, which are pointless from a Scottish point of view. 2026 though….? Who knows. I don’t know if the movement is capable of mobilising for then either. 🙁

Geri

Shitey face

“one day we read of you banged up in some foreign shithole prison for immigration irregularities we’ll know what happened.”

Just point to the Unicorn on the front & declare yer a sovereign Scot.

It’s not safe to say British abroad. You’d end up with snot in yer soup.
They board up towns & villages when they hear them coming for the footie…

I’m waiting with bated breath on someone answering Ruby Tuesday. “New English” LMAO! They’d be tarred & feathered & tied to a lamp post for uttering that pish.

Big Jock

Andy you compare fact with the hypothetical. We know the majority of Scots voted yes Fact! We know the majority of RUK incomers voted no. We know it was enough to turn a victory into a defeat.

Your theory is a suggestion based on the hypothetical inner workings of Scottish voters minds. Are you suggesting the majority of Scots only voted yes because we gave the English in Scotland a vote. And if we didn’t give incomers a vote, these people would vote no.

I have never heard such a mad hypothesis in my life.

Andy Ellis

@Hatey 8.22 pm

Why will there necessarily be more changes in the next 5 years than the previous 5 years, or the 5 years before that? Colour me unconvinced.

As for your dystopian predictions of what a future iScotland’s governance might be like, it sounds pretty much like the British nationalist project since brexit. However jaundiced a view we have of the quality of our current system and politicians, I agree with Mrs Howden:

When we had a king, and a chancellor, and parliament-men o’ our ain, we could aye peeble them wi’ stanes when they werena gude bairns.

Geri

As for Niger..

I mentioned on here a few weeks ago Colonialism was over as Africa is telling everyone to GTF out their country. That’s why Macron had an episode & started to try summon NATO & flex his chest cause he thought *them that can’t be mentioned* was putting ideas into their head. It couldn’t possibly be the French theft of their resources.

Elsewhere there was the lawyer for the ICJ for those other ppl. Anyone who hasn’t heard it should take a listen. It gives international law on decolonisation & right to self determination. The UK cannot impose criteria to meet. They also can’t say “Scotland isn’t ready for indy” or any other attempts at delay. It’s none of their business, they’re not our trustees & they must accept the result.

That’s why they’re busy moving ppl around to fck up the votes.

Andy Ellis

@Big Jock 9.43pm

I can’t be held responsible for your lack of imagination or ability to grasp the concept. It would only have taken 2% of people to change to deprive you of the much vaunted majority. Doesn’t seem that many.

I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots. Depends how lucky you feel that the feeling isn’t more general. It’s not worth the risk, but it’s not likely to happen anyway because you’re only representing a minority of cranks.

Ruby

Franchise Fanny says

I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.

You really need to answer the question ‘Who is a Scot’ before the above can make any sense.

Big Jock

Geri. It’s a ticking demographic time bomb.

What people like Andy don’t grasp. Is that a nation is formed by the people from that land. It’s not formed by incomers replacing indigenous multi generational Scots.

It takes centuries to form a culture and national identity. What took centuries to become, can be lost in a few decades. To be replaced with who knows what. Once the Scots become a minority in Scotland . Then it’s game over. 17% and growing of non Scots, and they all get to decide our future for us.

Whilst multiculturalism is a good thing. It is of no use in the mechanism of becoming independent. Because competing nationalities and cultures do not all agree on a collective nationality.

A country needs a collective will to create independence. Andy’s civic nationalism can only work if a country is already independent. Or we can wait 300 years for a new national identity to form. Or if the number of immigrants were so small it made no material difference.

Unfortunately that 17% is growing every year . And mostly RUK settlers. We cannot win on those numbers by allowing a free for all.

But if Andy thinks he can persuade maybe a future 20-25% of non Scots to vote for independence, then he should sell sand to the Arabs.

Rob

I find this conversation highly entertaining, apparently I am not Scottish:)
My family is a mix of Scottish English Irish and Canadian but apart from my late father in law who was Irish nobody has ever thought, called or treated any of the family as anything but native Scots because we all are. (Even though I was not born in the UK, never mind Scotland.)
I think a few folk here really need to take a good long look in the mirror at themselves.

Big Jock

Andy. But I wouldn’t be depriving Scots a vote would I. You don’t get to be Scot based on residence.

Andy Murray is English in that case.

Shug

I see the master is on QT tonight.

Should be well worth a watch to see how Flynn dodges indy in favour of devo max

Geri

“I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.”

We wouldn’t be. They’re not Scots. They have their own nationality.

Has Alex Salmond said any old Tom, Dick or Harry is a “Sovereign Scot”

Hatey McHateface

@ Andy Ellis says: 16 May, 2024 at 9:52 pm

Thanks for not addressing the points I raised in my post of 8:22.

Sam at 8:37 was pointing out that “the right to self-determination applies to the people of Scotland”.

There’s a group-think going on in which everybody discussing it chooses to believe that our unique and special Scottish Sovereignty only actually applies when every Sovereign Scot thinks and acts in lockstep.

I’m not in that group.

Quite why the self-determination of Sovereign Scots should be held up as Yoon scaremongering eludes me. It is certainly instructive though, just how scared and panicky some Nationalists get at the thought that some of their fellow Scots may develop a liking and a taste for self-determination and choose to take it to the next step.

“dystopian predictions of what a future iScotland’s governance might be like”

You are entirely right, Andy. Past performance is no guide to future behaviour. Shame that humans aren’t wired to see things that way.

Miraculous increases in politician’s IQ’s are rare occurrences though.

Big Jock

Andy my demographic projection comes from the Scottish census. The figures are there if you care to look. Net migration into Scotland from RUK is growing every year since 2014.

Geri

“I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.”

I very much doubt you would anyway.

So far that’s ..

A free for all indyref franchise
NATO membership (even tho it’s teetering on collapse)
EU membership (ditto)

You think you’ll impose on a YES movement..

Who made you in charge?

Haven’t you just arrived in Scotland?

Big Jock

Rob. If you weren’t born in Scotland, you can’t be a native Scot. That’s into the Gender debate ideology. An apple is an orange.

By the way there is nothing wrong with being born somewhere else. But if I moved to Canada when I was 5 and said I was native Canadian, it would just be nonsense.

Ruby

Rob
Ignored
says:
16 May, 2024 at 10:22 pm

I find this conversation highly entertaining, apparently I am not Scottish:)

It would be helpful if you told us what makes you Scottish Rob.

It might even answer your original question. ‘Who is a Scot?’

How do you feel about people coming here and being able to self-identify as Scottish?

Do you think the term Scottish is as meaningless as the term ‘woman’?

Hatey McHateface

@ Geri says: 16 May, 2024 at 9:54 pm

I can never see that word in print without pronouncing it wrong in my head, and that’s bad, I know, but I bet I’m not the only one.

But I persevered and eventually got past the first line of your post. So who are *them that can’t be mentioned*?

Is it the Illuminati?

And who are “those other ppl”? Are they the Illuminati?

Have you stopped to consider, among all your glee at the collapse of the Western Rules-Based Order, that all the supranational entities you like to call on, the UN, ICJ, etc. collapse with it?

In the new multi-polar world you welcome, might is right.

Leaving you like an unruly adolescent, first reveling in the retreat of the teachers from the playground, then greetin for the teachers to come back and sort out somebody who’s bullying you.

Whoops!

Anyhoo, just call me some playground names and you’ll feel better.

McDuff

Andy Ellis 5.48
I live in England for many years but i never at any time considered myself English nor did the English, and i doubt that anyone who moved to Scotland from another country would instantly regard themselves as Scots.

Big Jock

What this debate proves. Is that Scotland will never get independence via a referendum. The majority of people and politicians are like Andy. Afraid to rock the boat, afraid to admit the truth , trying to be magnanamous whilst giving up their sovereignty.

No I am afraid the odds are now stacked in the Unions favour when it comes to a referendum.

I think Scotland will only achieve independence, if a majority nationalist government declare it. That can be done with a lower portion of the electorate. Indeed up to a few months ago we had that majority.

Most countries who elect an independence majority just start the process of becoming independent. Our government got majority after majority and then retreated at Derby. Maybe the Scots are just so used to losing, they don’t know how to handle victory.

Rob

I don’t need to justify my ancestry to anyone nor will I on here.
Everybody is already making erroneous assumptions.
However I will ask one more question regarding the Canadian question above. If both you parents were Canadian and you were born in Scotland but lived just about your whole life in Canada, does that make you Scottish or Canadian?
If you parents are Irish but you were born and lived all of your life in Scotland, are you Irish or Scottish? What if one of your parents had an English grandmother?
According to the opinions of some on here none of my family are Scottish and none of them are entitled to the franchise?.
This is so stupid its not even worth discussing or arguing about and as I said before some of the posters on here need to take a good long look at themselves in a mirror.

George Ferguson

A lot of comment on the Franchise again. I would have had Alf at the summit of Ferguson Marine today. What vessels is the Yard capable of building? Yet again Kate Forbes swerved the real issue. Having spent a half billion on keeping the Yard opened, minor contractual issues prevent a Scottish Government decision. Not so for Calmac. Established tendering procedures foregone. I despair at the incompetence of the Scottish Government.

Shug

Mr flynn is sinking in front of my eyes

Big Jock

Rob answer one Canadian. Answer two Scottish. It’s not that complicated.

If my parents were both Scots and I was born in England and moved to Scotland when an infant. Then I am Scots. Aidan McGeady is Scottish , but chose to play for Ireland, due to Irish parents. Bit he is certainly not Irish. He lived his entire life in Scotland.

Grandparents are irrelevant. Other than sports people using it as political convenience to play for another country.

But someone who has lived their whole life in England and moves here as an adult, is English.

Remember a first year uni student from Oxford who goes to study in Edunburgh gets a vote under the current franchise. In what way shape or form is that fair.

Northcode

This from:

‘Indigenous Peoples and the United Nations Human Rights System Fact Sheet’

Derived from the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which, by 2010, was supported by the vast majority of United Nations Member States and opposed by none.

Despite the lack of an authoritative definition, there are criteria that help to define indigenous peoples.

The main one is the criterion of self-identification and those proposed by José Martínez Cobo in his “Study of the problem of discrimination against indigenous populations”, which include:

Historical continuity with pre-invasion and/or pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories;
Distinctiveness;
Non-dominance; and
A determination to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories and identity as peoples in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal system.

The United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Peoples has stressed, in addition to the above:

A strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources;
Distinct social, economic or political systems; and
Distinct language, culture and beliefs.

Many indigenous peoples populated areas before the arrival of others and often retain distinct cultural and political characteristics, including autonomous political and legal structures, as well as a common experience of domination by others, especially non-indigenous groups, and a strong historical and ongoing connection to their lands, territories and resources.

Rob

I know its not that complicated, although various designations have been changed in my descriptions to protect the innocent (and to make a point by turning thjngs around a bit to confuse some of the puir souls) the principles are sound in the argument
Personally I was born abroad but I am a native scot despite what has been suggested by some above. (actually Glaswegian but I haven’t lived there for about 25 years now)
While I was uncomfortable to extending the franchise to under 18’s for various reasons we lost the americas for the very same reason. No taxation without representation. If you work, live and pay tax in scotland you are entitles to vote here.
The rules for whether you should be allowed to live in scotland are a different matter and are a completely different discussion. If you are here legally and paying tax you can vote.
Or do folk not remember just how many scots live in englandshire, can they not vote there if they live there? Think this through guys.

Geri

Rob

Why couldn’t EU citizens living in the UK vote in the Brexit referendum?

Why can’t they vote in General Elections?

Why can “expats” living in Spain or elsewhere get a vote on who can be the UK prime minister? They no longer live here.

Why are you off to Canada for examples when you could use England?

Rob

Actually I voted leave in the Brexit referendum and would do so again.
Scotland and/or the UK ain’t going back into the EU for a long time if ever. Scotland on its own definitely not.

Geri

“If you work, live and pay tax in scotland you are entitles to vote here.”

No yer not. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the UK franchise who restrict who can vote in all elections & referendums.

Big Jock

Robs getting franchises mixed up.

You pay taxes and are resident, yes you can vote in council and national elections. But a national referendum on the future of a nation is a completely different ball game.

You do not let retiree incomers , RUK students or second homers vote on the very existence of our country. Its completely wrong headed.

Geri

How do you know what the EU will accept or not? LOL!

Who wouldn’t want an energy rich, resource rich, territory undisputed, wealthy nation?

Answer my questions tho …why does little England have voting restrictions on their franchise? And allow Uncle Albert, now living in the Costas, a vote on GE? They don’t live here & don’t pay taxes.

I see they’re removing EU citizens from local elections too. Jeez, franchise fanny will have a fit I’m sure at those moon howling nativist bigots.

Geri

Big Jock

Agreed. Constitutional referendums are not for part time residents. It’d make every countries constitution a complete farce.

The mistake Salmond made was allowing an indyref within a domestic setting playing to domestic rules. It should’ve been conducted by international observers.

So called indy supporters forget that we are already trying to leave a hostile nation where even the rules on purdah (pre election rules) were allowed to be flagrantly broken & emblazoned across a national rag 10 or so days before the vote along with BBC Devo max.

Now eejits think we should just re-run the same shit again incase Betty fae Manchester, now living in Perth who just moved a week ago, gets herself all hurty cause she can’t vote in a Scottish constitutional referendum.

The entitlement is rank.. but you can tell the bad actors cause we don’t see them moaning about the UK franchise. Just Scotlands. Funny that – not.

Ruby Wednesday

Rob
Ignored
says:

According to the opinions of some on here none of my family are Scottish and none of them are entitled to the franchise?.

Your question was ‘who is a Scot’

You seem pretty sure what a Scot is so why don’t you give us the answer to your question.

Who is a Scot Rob?

Nobody has said that ‘non Scots’ cannot vote in Scotland.

Ruby Tuesday

Rob
Ignored
says:

According to the opinions of some on here none of my family are Scottish and none of them are entitled to the franchise?.

Your question was ‘who is a Scot’

You seem pretty sure who is a Scot is so why don’t you give us the answer to your question.

Who is a Scot Rob?

Nobody has said that ‘non Scots’ cannot vote in Scotland.

Rob

Maybe because the Scottish Gov approached the EU to talk to them about rejoining and got chased.
I wasn’t surprised as I cannot see the EU wanting to shortcut the process all the Eastern European countries went through and neither did I think they would want another back door to the rest of the UK opened.
I have never understood why Indy supporters are so desperate to join another larger unrepresentative body where we would be an even smaller minority once they got out of the one they are complaining about already.

as to “You do not let retiree incomers , RUK students or second homers vote on the very existence of our country. Its completely wrong headed”

retiree incomers, if they live here and this is their permanent address why not? it affects them as much as anybody else.

Students are generally still domiciled “at home” for voting, locally same as Second homers.
They do not usually have a vote except where their primary address is unless it is for local council elections and suchlike, the second registration is looked at generally on a case for case basis and can’t be a large number anyway to get het up about.
I know I have never bothered to register more than one vote in different locations.

Big Jock

Rob you are so wrong.

The EU is not and never was a sovereign state. It is a collective of independent nations. And Scotland would be represented as one of those nations,but still a sovereign country. At the moment we are not sovereign. WM is, and we have representation but no power or influence on that institution. We cannot leave without permission( apparently). They run foreign policy, macro economics , immigration and defence.

The EU does none of those things. But the English painted the myth that they somehow did. Hence the English Brexit.

As for retirees from England voting on another country’s future. You are completely misunderstanding what a nation is. It’s not about them , or their personal circumstances and bank balance.

This is about a nation, which is not their nation. They are migrants not nationals. Would they get a vote on Catalonias future or any other aspiring nation they are not from?

Alf Baird

Geri @ 12:47 am

“The entitlement is rank.. but you can tell the bad actors”

Yes, even among the leaders of Scottish higher education institutions who seem unable to find a Scot to award an honorary doctorate to. In a colonial society discrimination of ‘a people’ becomes institutionalised, i.e. it is the norm:

link to heraldscotland.com

Hatey McHateface

@Rob says:17 May, 2024 at 12:57 am

“I have never understood why Indy supporters are so desperate to join another larger unrepresentative body where we would be an even smaller minority once they got out of the one they are complaining about already”

Amen, brother. But the explanation is simple. To counter the “too wee, too poor” trope, an SNP bright spark, decades ago, came up with “Independence In Europe”, i.e. “Dinna fash, we’ll still have grown-ups in charge, even after Indy”. Maybe the idea was that after a decade or so in control, that could be ditched, due to the self-evident competence and capability of ScotGov. Ha!

You’re new on here I think. Stick around long enough and you will encounter another meme you won’t be able to understand.

Among all the posts about colonialism, and the definitions of what constitutes an indigenous people groaning under the oppressive yoke of an occupying militarist imperialism, you will encounter posts from the enthusiasts for the imperialist destruction of other colonised indigenous nations.

Quite often these are one and the same poster!

You have to conclude that most words in common usage have two meanings: the meaning used by ordinary Scots in their daily lives. And the special meaning used here when writing about Indy.

Or just apply Occam’s razor and reach the simpler conclusion.

Hatey McHateface

@Big Jock says: 17 May, 2024 at 6:55 am

“The EU is not and never was a sovereign state. It is a collective of independent nations”

No nation is Independent unless it controls its own currency, and hence its own economy. The EU has the Euro, a “one size fits all” solution designed to lock in German industrial preeminence, just as the CAP was designed to lock in French agricultural preeminence. Go figure.

As for “is not and never was a sovereign state”. Are we supposed to forget about the pledges of “ever closer union”? What do you think that’s about?

KITTYBEE

@hatey Mchateface

You make the case for Scottish Independence so well.

Frank Gillougley

I know this has been done to the death but nevertheless, Cultural identity is an interesting and nuanced one.
Like many others, my Grandparents were from counties, Down, Antrim and Tyrone.
They were economic migrants to the West of Scotland.
Being Irish catholics they changed the spelling of their surname to make it sound more Scottish and to mask their Irishness.
In the job market before the war they experienced straightforward in your face sectarianism.
I just remembered the other day they would have us sing in primary school, Hail glorious st patrick dear saint of our isle!
/ Not my isle mate. Ill get to the point.
I never ever felt Scottish and I never ever felt Irish. I had the total scottish cringe. And then lo and behold i found out the reason why. I was that Ulsterman!!! Never! Never! Never!
I left Scotland 3 years ago, cashed in my sectarian dividend and got an irish passport, live in the EU with my wife looking after my ageing mother in law and never ever looked back. It all became a bit pointless spoiling ballot papers.

TURABDIN

There is no «case» for Scottish independence any more than there is «case» for breathing.
Independence = the VITAL BREATH of a free people.

Xaracen

Andy Ellis said;

“I can’t be held responsible for your lack of imagination or ability to grasp the concept. It would only have taken 2% of people to change to deprive you of the much vaunted majority. Doesn’t seem that many.”

2% isn’t many, granted, but it didn’t happen. As I pointed out earlier, there is no alternative data available to contradict the conclusion of the Edinburgh study, just idle speculation like yours. Speculation isn’t an argument.

As for;

“I certainly wouldn’t support a Yes movement that disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Scots.”

I wouldn’t either, obviously; but that’s just your usual dishonest framing, again. You’re presuming that those ‘hundreds of thousands’ are already enfranchised in the first place.

That’s just speculation on your part again, simply because a suitable franchise for a serious constitutional plebiscite hasn’t even been properly considered yet, let alone decided, so their status in that specific regard is currently unknown.

And;

“you’re only representing a minority of cranks.”

We can say the same of you.

TURABDIN

FRANK GILLOUGLEY.

«Glorious st Patrick» was very likely from south west Scotland.
He was certainly not Irish.
Culture matters but do not put too much emphasis on «identity».
Identities, as we see with gender politicking may be just made up for pure ad hoc reasons.

Geri

“What do you think that’s about?”

American hegemony, ya dummy.

James

Gas Main having a conversation with himself now… lol

Rob

It is interesting just how much of West Central Scotland is of relatively recent Irish Descent.
Since only “true scots” according to some posters are the only folk that would be allowed to vote and the definition of a “true scot” is those who are “autochthonous” and not immigrants of any sort.
I wonder just how how many generations you need to go back before being considered “autochthonous”
It all seems to me like an attempt to fiddle the figures in your favour and I think few folk on here would qualify as “scots” if the rule was applied rigorously.
Hence my rhetorial question, “who IS a a scot?”

Hatey McHateface

@TURABDIN says:17 May, 2024 at 9:09 am

“There is no «case» for Scottish independence any more than there is «case» for breathing.”

As we can see from recent posts, we can’t even agree on the definition of Independence!

Frank Gillougley

Turabdin 9.2o

My point re St Patrick was about indoctrination. Or in modern terms, gender politicking. I was about 7yrs old at the time! about 6o years ago! As RD Laing put it, the three biggest influences on your life are> the church the state and the family. Regarding identities, I probably never had one! Not a hippy and not a punk. Where I live i hear the sound of freight trains in the night. I love these things. They are without political boundaries. Older than modern nation states.