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The party of devolution

Posted on October 22, 2014 by

Johann Lamont, Scottish Labour conference, March 2014:

“Scottish Labour is the party of devolution.”

And here’s what that means seven months later, in terms of the submissions of the five Holyrood parties to the Smith Commission on devolved powers:


Imagine if they WEREN’T the party of devolution, eh readers?

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208 to “The party of devolution”

  1. Doug Daniel says:

    At least they’re consistent…

  2. Brian Powell says:

    In their mean spirited, malice laced view they thought there was only them and the SNP in the Scotland bubble, and if they could only do enough damage all things would return to them as was ordained. Hence the mendacious ‘powers’ ‘offered’.

    They forgot about the real people who are not them.

  3. handclapping says:

    Just as Labour is the party of social security, Labour is the party of the NHS, Labour is the party of the minimum wage and Labour is the people’s party.

    Is == Was

  4. John says:

    If they weren’t they could perhaps be –

    a political party which advocates a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, and a party which aims to establish such a system for the people of Scotland?
    (Aye right!)

  5. heedtracker says:

    We’re the cash cow that just keeps on giving My Labour MP Frank Dorran makes a fortune in expenses and Anne Begg even makes Jim Murphy look frugal.

  6. Roboscot says:

    That table gives a good indication of what the Smith Commission is going to come up with.

  7. R-type Grunt says:

    Is the green tree a tory logo? God help us.

  8. HandandShrimp says:

    The Labour Party moto

    What are you wanting?…because the answer is Naw!

  9. JimnArlene says:

    The party of deviousness, more like. Shitehawks the lot of them, the sooner Scotland wakes up and gets rid of that scum; the better.

  10. I was disconnected from the site

  11. heraldnomore says:

    Heedtracker, I’d keep Anne Begg’s expenses out of it. She has her own special needs, which must mean extra hands are needed and thus substantially more costs than your average trougher. But Murphy and co are fair game.

  12. galamcennalath says:

    There is no such thing as a pro devolution Unionist. It’s an oxymoron.

    Or, more to the point, it’s a con. It has always been a scam to throw a few powers to the Scots to keep them quiet for a few years. London would always retain ultimate control, even of devolved powers, financially. Also part of the plan was an electoral system for Holyrood which would ensure proxies acting for the London parties would stay in charge. (At least that bit failed!)

    Now, devolution in the form of full fiscal autonomy and most powers transferred could work. However, when your mindset says firmly “London always knows best”, decentralising power is just outside your belief system!

    As far as Smith goes, hope for the best, plan for the worst, expect Devo FA.

  13. ann says:

    So that’s what Devo-Max-Tax looks like.

    Boy have the Unionists pulled a fast one there and fooled some of the 55%, but those of us who have been around since 1979 know what was is going to hit us.

    The thing that really gets to me about some of the older no voters is that they were around at that time and knew the consequences and fall out of the ’79 vote.

  14. Murray McCallum says:

    Labour just love saying No. They shouldn’t mind it when the electorate gives them they same answer #NoLabour

  15. velofello says:

    @ R-Type Grunt: Is the wee green tree no the “Let Glasgow Flourish” insignia that used to be on the side o’ trams and buses? But there’s something missing, seems a bit fishy to me. and R H (?) Fitzpatrick is missing tae.

    Notice only the SNP and the Greens trouble to tell who they are by name. The Red Tory one looks like a smudge, seems apt. LibDem’s meant to be a cuckoo? Any port in a storm I suppose. Which nest next , UKIP?

  16. Eleanor McCarrey says:

    heraldnomore …… Anne Begg made herself fair game when she allowed the BNP to wrap their arms round her for a photoshoot during the Referendum and fully support the cuts in benefits for the disabled. No sympathy from me she will not need to worry about her bills unlike the people she has stabbed in the back

  17. Swami Backverandah says:

    That’s a terrific graphic.
    Labour have out-Toried the Tories.

  18. CameronB Brodie says:

    Who’d have thunk the Tories would be a smigen less imperialist than Labour? It looks like Labour have really bought in to this One Nation dream. Now, how can you square that with socialist values? Not that I necessarily aspire to socialist values, I just thought that was what Labour was all about.

  19. Alex Clark says:

    Shame the table did not include National Insurance which is approximately 18% of all taxes collected in the UK and equals the take from VAT.

    I do wish people were more aware.

  20. yesindyref2 says:

    Excellent graphic.

  21. Croompenstein says:

    Not one! not fucking one green tick!!

  22. Alex Clark says:

    What a dick it does! Sorry lol.

  23. nigel says:

    ann begging gives wheelchair users a bad name!

    Perhaps some kind yes aberdonian might tip the witch into the dee? (or don I don’t mind)

  24. Aspen says:

    According to London Metro Boris wants all taxes raised in London to stay in London. Now that’s a novel idea! Also, £36M is needed to pay for strengthening the roof of the Olympic Stadium.

  25. Tattie-bogle says:

    Labour = my blood boiling
    too much devolution = too many forms to fill in ,some hard work and nae broon envelopes

  26. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    Ah – that would explain the previous article on the economics of devo-max by the ex-labour Politcal adviser John Maclaren in his independent and non-biased report. Fits very nicely with Labour Party lack of policy.

    Labour – just a pathetic excuse of a political party.

  27. Grouse Beater says:

    ‘Labour – we stand for conning and Conservative.’

  28. AuldA says:

    What are the caveats associated with V.A.T? I understand part of the VAT serves to fund the EU, but what is the official explanation as to why devolving VAT would pose a problem?

  29. nigel says:

    Labour – just a pathetic excuse of a political party

    Dr Mac-surely the lib cons and the tirrys are just as bad?

  30. nigel says:

    Aspen says:
    22 October, 2014 at 8:04 pm
    According to London Metro Boris wants all taxes raised in London to stay in London.

    Aspen-I thought that all taxes raised in the uk stayed in lundin?

    Or am I wrong?

  31. nigel says:

    AuldA says:
    22 October, 2014 at 8:07 pm
    What are the caveats associated with V.A.T? I understand part of the VAT serves to fund the EU, but what is the official explanation as to why devolving VAT would pose a problem?

    Official explanation

    ” No way are these poofs up north getting their grubby paws on ANY tax raising powers-the sweatys will be wanting their whisky and oil revenues back next!! Hahaha”

  32. teechur says:

    Strikes me that, no matter what, the Smith placebo is going to recommend more than Labour want Scotland to have. That’s goin to make any future campaigning by Labour a bit of a laugh… My first question for any future Labour spivs will be, “So, given you didn’t want more powers for Scotland, will you remove them if I vote for you?”

    Somehow, I can’t see anyone in Scotland believing anything they say. Ever. Again.

  33. Mark says:

    I know about 1979 and I’m only 24.

  34. msean says:

    Its not often that the Conservatives miserly offerings look better than Labours. All because they don’t want to give up possible votes on English laws.

    I don’t particularly want my MP to vote on purely English/Welsh/NIR matters,just like the English/Welsh/NIR MPs shouldn’t be able to vote on purely Scottish matters(that should also cover Scottish MPs sitting for English/Welsh/NIR seats,their constituents didn’t vote for them so they can sit in on and pack Scottish questions for instance).

    Actually,Independence would cure this situation nicely. 🙂

  35. nigel says:

    Somehow, I can’t see anyone in Scotland believing anything they say. Ever. Again.

    You’re dead right teeter! I believed the buggers when they telt me that the devil incarnate salmons was going to rob me of my pension, false teeth, pussycat, and my dear beloved auld grannie if I had the audacity to vote for him!

    Never again will I believe anything that comes out of daphne broons moo-no never!

  36. handclapping says:

    But what about the power to issue our own library books?
    What does Labour say to that then? Everything except history books and 1984! Wowee, they could have had it in Calman and the 2012 Scotland Act, but we can’t trust the sweaties not to bilk us and leave us with the bill.

    Won’t anybody think of the books!
    (K2, if you’re interested)

  37. yesindyref2 says:

    Dr JM Mackintosh
    My suspicion would be that Glasgow University “exerted pressure” on Maclaren and the then current CPPR to move out of the Adam Smith Building and find residence elsewhere – something curiously I have seen absolutely no MSM speculation about.

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    Err, a speculation of mine perhaps backed by this:

    CPPR used to be reputable and so of course, is Glasgow Uni.

  39. @teechur

    Somehow, I can’t see anyone in Scotland believing anything they say. Ever. Again.

    Half of Pacific Quay does.

  40. @teechur

    Somehow, I can’t see anyone in Scotland believing anything they say. Ever. Again.

    Half of Pacific Quay does.

  41. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    at least you know where you are with the Tories – a right wing, authoritarian party who only care about London and the South-East of England..

    Whereas the Labour Party still pretend to be a left wing socialist party with a passing interest in Scotland but in actual fact they are a right wing, authoritarian party who only care about London and the South-East of England.

    The Lib-Dems – no idea what they are now ? But then they do not know either – doesn’t matter they are screwed come May 2015.

  42. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t think devolved Scotland could set our own VAT rates within the EU, and I guess it wouldn’t help the “single market” of the UK either. Revenues can be fully devolved, but not the ability to vary rates.

  43. AuldA says:


    Granted, that’s the Westminster usual bullying.
    But what’s the SNP position on the subject of VAT?

  44. AuldA says:

    By the way, who collected the data and made the table? Stu’?

  45. wingman 2020 says:

    Unfortunately I cannot hate labour any more than I already do. So this article is water of a ducks back. I don’t care.

    I just want to see Labour die a sudden death in Scotland. I’d like all the young people to ask ‘What have Labour ever done for Scotland?’ & ‘Why does my Dad keep voting for them?’

    Labour in Scotland represent everything thats wrong with politicians and politics. Residents in Scotland should be ashamed that we allowed these political cowboys and mafia to represent us in any respect.

    When I see Curran, Lamont, Bailie, Murphy, Dugdale and Alexander talk… I ask myself “which one of these people…’

    1. Could hold down a first line Management job in a blue-chip company?
    2. Sound intelligent, honest and trustworthy?
    3. Have an IQ in the top percentage of the population?
    4. Are worth a penny of tax payers money?
    5. Genuinely care about the electorate?
    6. Would impress MPs in the EU countries?
    7. Don’t make me sick?
    8. Work hard for their money?
    9. Come across as decent and straightforward?
    10. Is not in politics for themselves.

    And I keep returning the same answer. Not one of them

  46. INDEPENDENT says:

    AuldA 8-04pm

    I’m pretty sure you can’t have two different VAT rates for the same goods(unless we are independent). Whilst we are under eu rules.

  47. Lesley-Anne says:

    How magnificent it is to see the party OF the people FOR the people BY the people GIVING the people F.A.!

    Just as well the people have a NEW party OF the people FOR the people BY the people actually DOING what the people want … delivering goods and services, as best they can under unnecessary extreme pressure from WM, to the people of Scotland. 😉

    Roll on next May when the OLD party OF the people FOR the people BY the people can be given the right old kick up the earse by the NEW party OF the people FOR the people BY the people. 😛

  48. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @wingman2020 –

    Hear, hear.

    As many of us as poss should make it along next Thursday to wherever it is they’re having their ‘gala dinner’. Someone told me last night it’s definitely the Glasgow Central Hotel, but haven’t seen any confirmation elsewhere.

    Nice big banner – ‘Labour! Yer Tea’s Oot!’

  49. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The following is linked for those interested in linguistics and the origin of urban idiomatic expressions. It does not condone gang conflict and/or the use of machetes and lengths of iron pipework.

    (P.S. How many well-kent faces can you spot?)

  50. Aidan says:

    @ Swami Backverandah

  51. Macart says:

    Well that was the shortest ‘devolution journey’ (Labour TM), on record.

    But hey, apparently 55% of the electorate knew this would be the result of their vote. They did, didn’t they?

    Oh, they didn’t?


  52. Katie says:

    Got an e-mail today from 38 degrees asking me to speak to my Labour MP to ensure the promises were not broken……I had a bit of a wee laugh to myself before I politely replied:

    ‘ Dear x , I hope we get the powers we are promised, however I have no desire to speak to my Labour MP or any other Labour MPs for that matter. The Labour party is dead to me. I will never vote for them again. They’re betrayal last month makes me sick to the stomach.
    Regards, Katie ‘

    I would urge anyone asked by an organisation supporting the red tories to also make your feelings clear.

  53. I thought at least Smith would let us keep the 5p plastic bag tax.
    800,000,000 used in Scotland taken from a figure of 8 billion in uk 2011.
    Thats 40 million quid (very rough estimates)
    But turns out SG lets the businesses keep it, supposed to go to good causes .

  54. tombee says:

    The Labour Party. The cannae party of Scotland.


    Double negative of a double dealing party of pigmies who adopt the motto of, ‘NAFFI’. No Ambition and Fuck all Interest.

  55. AuldA says:


    Sure, but how’s that a caveat?

  56. Gallowglass says:

    Labour run around shouting Federalism.

    Scotland votes No.

    Scottish mafia media try to pin Devo Max as a costly SNP folly.

    As many feared, it’s all geared up to get Labour back in.

    I don’t think it will work, but the lies will get through to enough people to matter. We have to break the cycle.

  57. B.Bomb says:

    As they say ” A picture tells a thousand words”.

    Could the Sunday Herald perhaps use this as their cover image? Not everyone buys the paper but a striking graphic like this would be noticed by everyone who passes it. It would stand out a hell of a lot among the other drab Sunday titles.

  58. Truth says:

    A picture paints a thousand words.

    Few words are more articulate than this picture.

  59. Stoker says:

    Katie says:
    22 October, 2014 at 8:47 pm
    Got an e-mail today from 38 degrees asking me to speak to my Labour MP to ensure the promises were not broken……I had a bit of a wee laugh to myself before I politely replied:

    ‘ Dear x , I hope we get the powers we are promised, however I have no desire to speak to my Labour MP or any other Labour MPs for that matter. The Labour party is dead to me. I will never vote for them again. They’re betrayal last month makes me sick to the stomach.
    Regards, Katie ‘

    I would urge anyone asked by an organisation supporting the red tories to also make your feelings clear.

    Well done, Katie.

    Quite a few of us have already told 38 Degrees where they
    can stick all their petitions, after the way they fooled
    us all into signing the petition which they later allowed
    Crash Gordon to hijack for his own purposes.

    I’m pleased to say, i don’t get any emails from them now.

  60. Clootie says:

    Amazing how often a cartoon or a simple table conveys more information than pages and pages of “News”.

    If you were selecting a new car would you buy the Labour one?

  61. Annette says:

    Labour MPs also voted No on almost every single Westminster vote concerning further devolution, apart from something about starting to count votes four hours after polls close (???), power over railways that begin and end in Scotland, and something about food labelling (SNP voted against that, so presumably it’s not good for Scotland.) As did the Conservatives and Lib Dems. People voted into Westminster by the Scottish electorate, but actively working against Scottish interests. Though of course they will tell us that being run by Westminster is in our interest.

  62. Sandy says:

    I would so love to hear them explain that chart to us.

  63. nigel says:

    AuldA says:
    22 October, 2014 at 8:31 pm

    Granted, that’s the Westminster usual bullying.
    But what’s the SNP position on the subject of VAT?

    Don’t really care a fig auld a-The only game in town is our possession of the whisky and oil revenues-anything else is mere smoke and mirrors-onionists playing with Scots gullibility-and who could blame them?

  64. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    I never got an invite to contact my labour MP as I wrote a robust rebuttal of their promises campaign due to the Brown intervention on their comments page which I see is not longer available. I must be off their list!

    I was a bit surprised as a thought that it was a Yesser campaign initially and was expecting them to comment that Gordon Brown had nothing to do with it when he hijacked it when they had 80,000 signatures. So I thought there was something odd about it.

    Good to see it has now stalled around the 120,000 Mark due to the “Brown effect”.

  65. Blackford Wheeler says:

    Kudos to Stewart Bremner to encapsulating the current state of play with his graphic.

    I, for one, would be willing to pitch in with a few quid for some crowd funded billboards?

  66. jacksg says:


    i also received the email from 38 degrees.

    I have just emailed the MP and explained why i think his Labour chums are on there way out.

    I then emailed 38 degrees and asked to be removed from their list as i do not want to beg the Labour party for anything EVER will be interesting to see if i get any replies..

  67. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The Labour Party is trapped.

    It can’t win an election without an increase in its vote in the South East of England.

    It can’t increase its vote in the South East of England if it concedes anything to Scotland.

    In fact it is only likely to increase its vote in the South East of England by arguing for restrictions on Scotland

  68. Jim Thomson says:

    Is it possible to withdraw a “signature” from any of these on-line petitions?

    It would be nice to see a diminishing number of participants.

  69. HandandShrimp says:

    On VAT I think the caveat is that we can’t do much with the rate. It is included in the pot because I think there is an inclination to allow as to collect it but only at the UK rate… whatever that is (but it can’t drop below 15% as I recall due to EU rules)

  70. Votadini Jeannie says:

    How ironic that the Unionist Tory party proposes greater devolution that the “Home Rule” Labour Party.

    Are any of their founding principles still intact?

  71. Devorgilla says:

    Why doesn’t the SNP want VAT and Excise duties devolved? VAT produces a huge amount of revenue, and it is easy yo collect, as everybody who buys anything pays it.

  72. Stoker says:

    Annette says:
    22 October, 2014 at 9:27 pm
    “Labour MPs also voted No on almost every single Westminster vote concerning further devolution, apart from something about starting to count votes four hours after polls close (???), power over railways that begin and end in Scotland, and something about food labelling…”

    Yip, i noticed that too, Annette.
    So almost every one of those Slabbers think we are only fit for:
    (1)-Counting bits of paper when someone gives us permission to.
    (2)-Organising short train journeys, and
    (3)-Slapping labels on frozen chickens.

    Smashin, nice to know we’re loved, eh.

  73. Devorgilla says:

    Even if we can’t vary the rate of VAT we could still collect and use it surely? I think I did read somewhere something about EU rules meaning only states could collect it.

  74. StevieMcB says:

    The Aaaaaaaaaaaaggghhh! Strategy
    At 6.30pm on weekday nights,missreporting Scotland time, throw your front doors open and scream Aaaaaaaaaaggghh!, bash pots and pans for 5 mins while chanting “Red Tories Out!”
    Then finish yer tea. 🙂

    Just thinking out the box, i’ll get ma jaikit.

  75. Tam Jardine says:

    Just over a month ago and I attended the Usher Hall gig with Franz Ferdinand et al – it felt like we, the thousands in that hall were in a different, new country charting a new optimistic future.

    Just over a month ago we were talking about getting rid of trident.

    And getting rid of child poverty. And ending the need for food banks.

    Fast forward some 5 weeks and Adam Tomkins is in a room sucking the life out of the “more powers” bullshit – trying to work out what crumbs from the masters table Scotland should beg for. And labour/bbc perform the most absurd volte-face in Scottish political history.

    Lying bastards. I look forward to dancing on the Scottish branch of the labour party’s grave in May.

    Still waiting to hear the backlash from the betrayed No-voters disgusted at being hoodwinked by Gordo. Guess they must be quietly raging…

  76. Mark Coburn says:

    Ideal graphic for a leaflet to go through every door in Scotland.

  77. fred blogger says:

    Dave McEwan Hill
    which is exactly what it is doing by arguing for the continence of a neoliberal agenda.

  78. Croompenstein says:

    @Steviemcb – Brilliant 🙂

  79. Balaaargh says:

    The rusty clunking fist was probably right when he said BLABiS proposals were the equivalent of what Keir Hardie wanted in home rule.

    That’s because nearly all of them didn’t exist in Hardie’s time!

    I can’t imagine Hardie getting worked up because Air Passenger Duty isn’t included in the Home Rule bill… 🙂

  80. ronnie anderson says:

    Ah thought there was no advertizements on this site, whits wie awe the RED X.

  81. Fat boab says:

    @Jim Thomson, at 9:50 pm said

    ‘Is it possible to withdraw a “signature” from any of these on-line petitions?’

    Hi Jim, here’s my experience on that subject.

    Shortly after Brown hijacked the earlier 38degrees campaign I wrote to express my disgust and demanded my name be taken from the petition.
    Two days ago I got a response which I append. (By the way, I just love the way that ‘Gerry and the Team’ thank me for ‘sharing my thoughts’ and apologize for their ‘wild inbox’, but the selfish bastards never even had the decency to say ‘Have a nice day – missin’ you already!’ and for that I will never forgive them ….!)

    Hi Bob,

    Thanks for getting in touch and sharing your thoughts about this. I’ll be sure to pass this on to the rest of the staff team for their information. Please forgive the delay in responding, our inbox has been wild for the last couple of weeks or so.

    Gordon Brown does seem to have been saying this, but you can rest assured that he definitely won’t be the one handing it in – 38 Degrees members handed it in at Downing Street on Thursday 16th October 2014.

    Please be assured that we complied with all requests for signature removal, prior to handing the petition in.

    Thanks for being involved,

    Gerry and the 38 Degrees team
    On 1 October 2014 00:06, Bob wrote:

    Can you tell me who was the creator/submitter of the above petition (it isn’t specified on the website)?

    Anyway without checking on its origin I foolishly signed it.

    Now, I understand it has been hijacked by former PM Gordon Brown.

    I do not wish to be associated with this odious individual in any way and request that my signature is removed from the petition.

    Please can you confirm by email that this has been done

    Dr Robert Henderson

  82. ben madigan says:

    o/T – just to cheer you all up and maybe suggest this is the way to go for other sports etc?

    Scottish surfers declare independence from Team GB for world championships

    The move will mark the first time a separate Scots team has competed on the world stage in 20 years.

    Team member Mark Boyd said: “We are all really excited about going to represent Scotland on the world stage – it’s a great thing for Scottish surfing to be competing at an international level.

    700 years later it’s nice to see Mr Boyd is following in the footsteps of his clan’s ancient heritage!

    “In 1306 Duncan Boyd was executed for supporting the cause of Scottish Independence. Also during the Wars of Scottish Independence, Sir Robert Boyd was a strong supporter of king Robert the Bruce and was even one of the commanders at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314”.

  83. ronnie anderson says:

    C-mon peolpe Ian Gray & Gregg McClymont simply put a X in the box because neither of them would make any sence when they talk.

  84. CRAIGthePICT says:

    @Tam Jardine:

    “Just over a month ago and I attended the Usher Hall gig with Franz Ferdinand et al”

    Yes, great night, great people, great hope, a prime example of why we will win this soon, we have the momentum.

    “Fast forward some 5 weeks and Adam Tomkins is in a room sucking the life out of the “more powers” bullshit”

    That guy writes some drivel. I see Labour MEP Catherine Stihler is one of the names praising his site. Any old unionist lies will do for her, don’t bother yourself with the truth ffs.

    Brian Taylor doing my box in on Scotland 2014. When someone is completely ‘missing’ the main points and yet again attempting to belittle the SNP, it’s clear they are a biased piece of crap, completely unfit for their role, unless that role is to be a biased piece of crap for the BBC….oh wait.

  85. schrodingers cat says:

    i used to think that we should avoid the term devo max since the unionists had high jacked its meaning, opting for ffa instead

    no im not so sure, it they can define it in 4 different ways, so can we, rather than posting informative leaflets through folks doors, we should post leaflets stating, “labour vowed to deliver devo max……..they lied…..where is it”?

    let the snp,greens and ssp define devo max for us, ie ffa,

    if anyone asks you what you mean by devo max, reply, the powers to stop fracking, the powers to end the bedroom tax, the powers tp cut corporation tax if we so wish, )select the appropriate answer from above depending on who you are speaking too

    if we outline what we mean by devo max, ie full control over everything bar defense and foreign affaires, we might just scare the electorate of, if the unionists can prevaricate about the bush, why cant we?

  86. fred blogger says:

    Balaaargh here crash promises the earth.

  87. fred blogger says:

    Balaaargh here crash promises the earth.

  88. ben madigan says:

    @Steviemcb and Croompenstein:
    during the troubles in NI women and kids used to bang metal bin-lids on the ground to communicate warnings –
    Now we’ve got plastic wheelie bins with attached lids – it’s the peace process!
    I seem to remember the Indignados used the pots and pans to warn about evictions in Spain

  89. Jimbo says:

    Labour in Scotland: The party of devolution which doesn’t want devolved powers.

    Labour in Scotland don’t know who they are, why they exist, what they want, what they are doing, what they stand for – and we don’t ever understand WTF they are talking about.

  90. schrodingers cat says:

    I noticed the unionists getting angry when accused of reneging on the vow and failing to deliver devo max

    we should accuse them at every opportunity

    labour…….yer devo max is oot
    labour ……ye’ll have hud yer devo max then?

    if it annoys them then we are on the right track
    we need to instill this idea into the minds of everyone in scotlands in the run up to the GE, bill boards, banners at rallies, etc, if you repeat something often enough etc……..

  91. Jimbo says:

    @ Devorgilla

    “I think I did read somewhere something about EU rules meaning only states could collect it.”

    Yes, you’re right. Under EU law it is illegal to devolve VAT.

  92. Fairliered says:

    Labour in Scotland exist for their own self interest. They want power for themselves. They are doing whatever they think they need to do to retain that power. They stand for themselves only. We understand exactly what they are talking about – shafting Scots, whilst using the BBC & MSM to tell voters they are on their side. Our job between now and next May is to make sure Scots voters see through Labour lies, deceit and corruption – and undermine their BBC patsies.

  93. desimond says:

    Isnt this ideal for another contacting your Labour MP to explain campaign…Tom Greatrex here i come…

  94. fred blogger says:

    the banks should be forced to create a well funded peoples investment bank, taxing bonuses is window dressing.

  95. Jimbo says:

    @ Ann

    “Boy have the Unionists pulled a fast one there and fooled some of the 55%, but those of us who have been around since 1979 know what was is going to hit us.”

    Sadly, Ann, a great many of the people who voted NO have been around since 1979, and knowing what happened to us back then, fell for the Unionist’s lies all over again anyway.

  96. Robert Peffers says:

    @msean says:22 October, 2014 at 8:20 pm:

    “I don’t particularly want my MP to vote on purely English/Welsh/NIR matters,”

    The trouble with that, Msean, is that as England is financed directly by the United Kingdom Treasury as the United Kingdom then everyone in the United Kingdom contributes towards all English matters. Not only that but much of the English infrastructure funding comes from sources that carry no Barnett Consequentials.

    Here’s a selection of, particularly London, infrastructure projects that are funded from such sources as Government Reserves to which we all pay. The Chunnel & its infrastructure roads bridges. The London Cross-Rail system. The London Dome, The London Olympic Games, The New London Sewerage System, HS1 & HS2. A grant to set-up the Transport for London Scheme. Refurbishment of all London Rail & Bus Terminals.

    So as our money is spent on all those things and we get no return from them how can they be English only? Here’s another fact – England has no Block Grant so her roads and bridges are all paid for from the United Kingdom’s Transport Budget. However, as all three devolved governments must pay for theirs from within their block grants only their own residents pay for them but we all pay for England’s.

    Here’s another – The National Grid charges the Northern Scots Generatiors £20 for each kilowatt of power they add to the grid and subsidises the South English generators by £3 per Kilowatt they add. A combined £23 per unit difference. Not only that but the Electricity companies charge the Northern Scots an extra 2 pence more per unit of electricity they use than they charge their Southern English customers. Seems to me that as long as Westminster are the de facto Parliament of England wile running & financing itself as the United Kingdom there are no English only matters for we all pay for them.

  97. wullie says:

    When will slab start handing out the yellow stars for us to wear

  98. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Wouldn’t it be nice if Lord Kelvin/Smith/SSEHydroOrang-Utan appeared before the cameras tomorrow and said:

    “Our first meeting was interesting and productive, but we will be having no more.

    Basically, what happened was that we got completely bladdered, stripped down to our undergarments in Japanese style, and told each other the unvarnished truth.

    As a result, we feel duty-bound to issue a confession. We must inform you that the referendum was a ghastly charade, hopelessly compromised, and none of us want to be part of such a flawed and corrupt process causing further damage. And so, we resign forthwith.

    Please accept our sincere apologies for whatever role we may have played in the deception, and ultimate betrayal of, the people of Scotland, and citizens of the other union states who believed that this referendum was to be a safe, secure, and truly democratic process. We hope that many other apologies will shortly be forthcoming from those other actors who played their roles so well. They know who they are. And so do we.

    Although our effort was short-lived, we did agree on one recommendation, and it is for the people of Scotland:

    You now know – those of you who didn’t a month ago – that you cannot trust us. We will never allow you any real power, let alone independence. You will always be a nation, but never again will you be a state if we have any say in it. We have good reasons to want to keep you. If your reasons to leave us are better, stronger? If you want to take control of your own lives? And if you’re really serious about that? You must not wait for our permission. You must not wait for anyone’s permission. Such permission will never come.”

  99. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 22 October, 2014 at 8:40 pm:

    “As many of us as poss should make it along next Thursday to wherever it is they’re having their ‘gala dinner’.”

    All take along a wee bowl and hang a wee sign round each neck with, “Please Sir or Madam, can I have some more gruel”.

  100. Baheid says:


    Dr David Patrick ripping David Torrance a new one.

  101. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Peffers –

    A splendid suggestion.

    More ‘banner’ slogans, please.

  102. Stoker says:

    ben madigan @ 10.40pm reports that:

    “Scottish surfers declare Independence from team GB”

    ((( YA DANCER – that’s the way to do it – tell team GB to GTF )))

    Way O/T but important news.

    Today seen the first meeting of The Smith Commission.
    The 5 party reps were all present – Absolute disgrace
    the SSP were not allowed to participate. They’re not
    my politics but they guys played a very important and
    big part in the Yes movement referendum and should be
    involved in all discussions about our future.

    Anyway, this first meeting secured agreement on these points:

    (1)-Not to comment on the talks until they had concluded and
    a final report was produced.

    And that the eventual outcome would:

    (2)-form a substantial and cohesive set of powers.

    (3)-strengthen the Scottish parliament within the UK.

    (4)-bring about a “durable but responsive” constitutional
    settlement, which maintains Scotland’s place in the UK.

    (5)-not be conditional on the conclusion of other political
    negotiations elsewhere in the UK.

    (6)-not cause detriment to the UK as a whole or its constituent

    (7)-cause either the UK or Scottish government to gain or lose
    financially simply as a result of devolving a specific power.

    (8)-be compatible with international obligations, including EU
    law, and be agreed with a “broad understanding” of potential

    As reported here by the BBC:

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    Schroedingers cat
    The SNP have already defined “Devo-Max” in their covering letter to the submission to the Smith Commission, when they include the Panelbase poll they commissioned whith the question:

    “Control of all areas of government policy except for defence and foreign affairs, which is sometimes referred to as ‘Devo Max'” Reply: Yes: 66%, No: 19%, Don’t know: 15%.

    The SNP took ownership of Devo Max, and firther defined it in the Scottish Government submission. Anything less will not be Devo-Max.

    Covering letter:

    SG submission:

    It’s why I’m so keen we get behind Smith. The trap has been set by the SNP, and only Devo-Max avoids the trap of – Devo-Max.

  104. Natasha says:

    Tyranny is always better organised than freedom.
    Charles Peguy, 1873-1914, French poet and essayist.

    I know that it sometimes seems as if we are up against enormous odds in the form of a well-organised state propaganda system, but actually I think the above quotation should give us hope. I really like the haphazard nature of our grassroots movement; some may see it as a weakness, but I think that is its great strength; it can’t be controlled and manipulated, because it has no central ‘headquarters’ and it is full of spontaneity, joy and authenticity.

    Besides which, I don’t think the establishment is quite as well-organised as it appears; its members are just very good at putting on a front. It’s part of the innate arrogance and sense of entitlement that is part of a private school and Oxbridge education, and which covers a multitude of stupidities.

    Anyway, we are very organised and resourceful in many different small spheres. Just look at one example – Indy Scot Events. With a few clicks of a mouse you can find out what’s going on around our country over the next two months, and you can organise and advertise your own events on there. It is flexible and accessible. If it were to disappear, someone else would set up something to replace it. You can’t manufacture that level of engagement and commitment from a central base.

    This, I think, probably owes a lot to the fact that we are a small country; it is easier to make connections and get together among 5 million people than among 65 million. Yet another wonderful thing about our country that we should celebrate. We need to stay optimistic and believe in ourselves and in each other. There is a tide in the affairs of men (and women!) . . .

  105. yesindyref2 says:

    Curiously Brian Taylor had it right on BBC tonight, when he highlighted that the SNP could agree to the results of Smith and still say in May 2-15: “Even though our target was and is Independence, we took what was on the table on behalf of Scotland, now you the voters decide if it’s good enough”.

  106. yesindyref2 says:

    From the SNP website tonight: “Full fiscal autonomy on the table”

  107. Scottish surfers declare Independence from TeamGB.

    UDI can work.

    Anyway it should be TeamGB&NI

  108. fred blogger says:

    totally agree.

  109. Stoker says:

    Baheid says:
    22 October, 2014 at 11:36 pm

    Dr David Patrick ripping David Torrance a new one.

    Just added that site to my ever growing bookmarks collection.
    Was just in the middle of checking out Radio Saltire and in
    the middle of listening to some ‘Quo’.
    So far so good, i think. Cheers, Baheid.

  110. schrodingers cat says:

    im well aware that devo max was defined ages ago by the snp

    this hasnt stopped the unionists redefining devo max, home rule and even federalism(i noticed how the oed and the usa have remained quiet about federalisms definition)

    i have very little faith in the smith commision, our only chance to achieve devo max proper, is by winning as many indy seats at the ge(even then we will still be at the mercy of wm arithmatic, tory ukip majority and they will ignore us) i was more pointing out that if they can redefine devo max, so can we, to our advantage on the doorstep
    if we want independence, even if the smith commission do deliver, which they wont, not by may 2015 at anyrate, we should still cry foul and accuse the unionists of reneging on their vow
    the unionists are unconcerned with basing their politics on truth and reality, why should we?
    i am sick of losing

  111. schrodingers cat says:

    “Curiously Brian Taylor had it right on BBC tonight, when he highlighted that the SNP could agree to the results of Smith and still say in May 2-15: “Even though our target was and is Independence, we took what was on the table on behalf of Scotland, now you the voters decide if it’s good enough”

    the ge will be fought on whose definition of devo max is correct, the voters decide
    we should define it in ways that appeal to the voters

    ie, the power to stop fracking etc, even if holyrood has these powers now via planning permission etc(debatable)

    you will notice that reporting scotland, were blaming the higher cost of electricity in scotland on the snp when such powers are not devolved to holyrood, it doesnt stop the unionists

  112. Tam Jardine says:


    Loved the dissection of Torrance. I felt ashamed for him at times during the campaign – there is a vulnerability there, a lack of confidence and it accompanies a kind of Cochrane-lite obsession with trying to attack the SNP.

    I suspect Torrance quietly believes he would make an excellent MP or MSP, he is after all apparently superior to all of them, FM included.

    I was struggling with the vote for deputy leader of the SNP tonight. All 3 have impressed me in the past and I genuinely believe that each has Scotland’s best interests at heart and will toil to improve the people of Scotland’s lot.

    I have never felt in anything I have read of Torrance’s anti-SNP Mondays the same kind of desire to improve this country – just one-upmanship, arrogance, intellectual masturbation and a kind of emptiness.

    It’s a shame because he seems like a intelligent guy but he has truly lost his way.

  113. John O says:

    Young labour living up to the party mantra.

  114. Onwards says:

    “Labour just love saying No. They shouldn’t mind it when the electorate gives them the same answer #NoLabour”,


    They should change their logo to a black raincloud instead of a red rose.

    I think we really need to battle them on this front next year.

    They are going to have the usual simple message – “Vote Labour to stop the Tories.”

    It’s a hard message to beat.
    UNLESS they are seen as no better than the Tories.

    If the average voter becomes aware that Labour has the weakest devolution proposals, this could prevent backsliding towards a reluctant Labour vote.

    There is a real weakness here.
    They want LESS powers for Scotland than the Tories, in order to protect their own party at Westminster !!

    It’s about getting that over in a simple message or slogan.

    Images like the one above help online, but are too complicated to go on a billboard, and talking about devolving taxes makes some people think they will increase.

    We need to talk in terms of ‘powers’.
    Taxes and an ability to compete are essentially ‘job creating powers’


    And we need to fight negative this time as well.
    Unfortunately, Project Fear proves that it works.

    Hit them on Red Tories, expenses, and Devo-NANO

  115. TJenny says:

    I’ve been an SNP member for @ 3 years now, but still haven’t received my email to vote for Nicola’s deputy. Will have to chase it up tomorrow.

    Tam – are you perchance going through to Nicola’s gig in Glasgow on 22/11? Or it being on a Sat, are you maybe working?

  116. How about taking the fight down to Labours heartlands down South , the English editions of the papers the English local Radio English blogs .
    Tell them what`s been happening up here , tell them we do not hate them , tell them EVEL works for us , tell them we support English nationalism (not the bad type) .
    All they hear is BBC lies and Labour lies about us , wake the English up to what a corrupt Establishment we have.
    There is 60 million of them , a lot harder to control than 5 million of us.

  117. jacksloan2013 says:

    The TV Licence is classified as a tax. Why is it not included in the graphic?

    In my submission to the Smith Commission I will ask that this tax raising power is also devolved.

    Only then would I be willing to pay my licence fee again to enable the development of a new public broadcasting service in Scotland.

  118. Is Glasgow still getting that 1 billion pounds the UK government promised them ?

  119. Fat boab says:

    @Natasha at 11.47 p.m.
    Thanks, Natasha. Another spot-on, inspirational post.
    I would, however, disagree on one point. From my own random, disorganised dwibblings into pre-1917 Russian history, I am inclined to the view that ‘anarchy’ was, in many respects, better organised than ‘tyranny’ (hence the revolutions). Which, by the way, offers us a very good portent, I think.
    That aside, I think you hit the nail on the head with your reference to the ‘ spontaneity, joy and authenticity’ of the YES/Indy movement. The humour and general good-will of (almost) all involved was a joyous thing to behold and clearly differentiated it from the bitter, zombified graveyard offered by the opposition: (you just wouldn’t want these folk as your pals, would you?)
    As for optimism – if ever anybody is feeling down, you just have to ask yourself these two simple questions:
    Next time round:
    “Do you know of anyone in the 45% who voted YES who is likely to change their mind?”
    and, conversely:
    “Just how many NO voters do you think will realise their mistake and move over to YES?”
    In other words, folks, it’s a done deal.
    Don’t know when it will happen, but it will happen. Scottish independence is inevitable and when it comes, by jings, it will be a blast.
    (I for one am already Brylcreeming my hair and polishing my Sunday-best Start-Rite sandals in anticipation . . .)

  120. Stoker says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    23 October, 2014 at 12:49 am
    How about taking the fight down to Labours heartlands down South..

    About a week or so ago i remember someone on hear making
    the remark about “starting a fire in the enemys camp.”
    I can’t remember what that conversation was about or who
    said it but it is actually a very good way of achieving
    victory, if done correctly.

    I only wish i had the intelligence to know exactly how to
    go about it – light the blue touch paper and stand well back.
    And let the English do the job for us.

  121. Molly says:

    Tam jardine,
    I’m pretty sure not long before the date of the Referendum was set David Torrance was tweeting about having to ( hang on to your hat) venture down south for work . He’s one of those , given the result of the Ref, every cloud etc.The two year campaign was very fortunate for him.

    In fact if you think about all of our beloved media what the hell would they have filled their columns with , if the Referendum hadn’t happened?

    There would have been serious scrutiny of what they pandas have been doing for two years anyway-no more would they be Jackie Birds wee let’s lighten the mood after our in depth coverage of the latest Labour love in to round off misreporting Scotland.

  122. Defo says:

    “Conference. We will not wear nationalist clothes – but we will rip from the nationalists the threadbare garments they dress in to appear to believe in equality.” Rip ?

    You’ll wear whatever garment Milliballs fucking tells you to Jo.
    Lie, posture and puff until your blue woman, but remember, even the dogs in the street know that democratically bankrupt Slab are merely a branch office, and your the branch manager, who’s been promoted way past the Peter principal point.

    “We believe in social justice – but we believe in a time of scarce resources, you put the money you have where the need is – not just where you think the swing votes are.”

    Like the swinging South East, and the City of London plc ?
    HS2, and Trident replacement ?

    Slab are still in denial. Imagine their faces come election time 🙂

  123. Valerie says:

    Thanks to Baheid for linking to Dr Patrick’s piece on Torrance (at least they have stopped introducing the twerp as “Salmond’s Biographer” now).

    I watched a Youtube chat with David Patrick dissecting the newspapers over the Ref., and felt it should be compulsory viewing for anyone who is naïve about the MSM.

    I think he said it was all going to be written up in a report as well. So will look out for that!

  124. caz-m says:

    Where did “Dr Death” disappear to yesterday. You may also know him as John McLaren, BBC Scotland’s chief economist.

    He was booked in for the all day gig yesterday, even a 10 minute slot last night with Sarah Smith on her 2014 show.

    His main aim was to launch “Project Fear 2”, but people power won the day. After him and BBC Scotland got slaughtered on social media, McLaren was rushed off air by BBC Scotland and put back in his box.

    But don’t think for a minute that we have killed him off, BBC Scotland have him on life support and he can be brought back to life any time those Nationalist bastards think they are getting the upper hand.

    WOOOOOOOHHHHH!!!!!!! Be afraid.

  125. caz-m says:

    I wonder how many BBC License Fees were cancelled yesterday, due to BBC Scotland’s failed attempt at launching “Project Fear 2”.

    There are many thousands of Scots who are right on the limit of what they will allow BBC Scotland to get away with these days and I would say yesterday was one of those days that pushed many of them over the edge and they finally cancelled their License.

    Cleanse yourself today in three easy steps,

    Cancel your BBC License Fee.
    Cancel your Daily Record.
    Cancel your Labour Party membership.

    AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!, that feels a lot better.

  126. Tam Jardine says:


    Am working sat 22nd so will the Glasgow gig. Some other interesting events coming up include a faslane demo at the end of November that interested me. I will catch up O/T soon x

  127. Free Scotland says:

    I’ve just got my day off to the worst possible start by reading the transcript of Lamont’s speech. Labour are not even competent enough to ensure that something as public as their website should have its content thoroughly proof-read before being published. The speech features several errors of punctuation, an obvious confusion between “its” and “it’s,” and the spelling of the verb “practise” with a “c” instead of an “s.”

    Oh, hold on. I’ve called it the transcript of Lamont’s speech, as if the blame should really belong to some poor, wee office junior. It’s more likely that it is Lamont’s speech, typed by her own fair hand. After all, she reads everything, even at First Minister’s Questions, so why would there be a need to type it twice. Silly me. I forgot that the similarity between Lamont and wee Jimmy Krankie goes beyond a mere facial resemblance.

  128. john king says:

    Stevie McB says
    “Just thinking out the box, i’ll get ma jaikit.”

    Tak that jaiket aff

    Tam Jardine says
    “I have never felt in anything I have read of Torrance’s anti-SNP Mondays the same kind of desire to improve this country – just one-upmanship, arrogance, intellectual masturbation and a kind of emptiness.”

    If Torrance’s name hadn’t been in there I still would have known who you were taking about,
    a brilliant description of that passionless shadow man,
    He is in microcosm a perfect description of the unionists in Scotland!

    BTW thanks for that link baheid
    its never a bad day when we see that little shit Torrance getting his head kicked in, and for the life of me I cannot now nor then could understand NNS paying that clown to spout his pish!

  129. Haggis Hunter says:

    Wow, this is a great wee chart that simplifies everything in a nutshell.
    I read Labour’s devolution proposals, and it was something like 68 pages of p!sh, just to say we dont want to give you anything bar a few pennies difference in tax raising powers

  130. Macart says:

    Another easy to follow wee graphic here which gives you an idea of how much of our revenue streams are not in our control.

  131. AuldA says:


    So that’s it. Granted, Scotland could not set the VAT rate, neither collect it. Yet, Westminster surely knows how much VAT has been collected in Scotland, so it could refund a part of it to the Scottish government, nay?

    I’m certain VAT can be set under 15%, even though it does not happen. UK benefit from quite a favorable VAT regime, at least on common goods, as evidenced by this document:

    A further tax not considered here is the tax on alcoholic liquids, like whisky and perfumes. Why would whisky be cheaper in France than in Scotland if not because of local taxes?

  132. Hewitt83 says:

    It’s difficult to put into words these days the contempt I have for Scottish Labour.

    I will look on in glee as they slowly slide into a political irrelevance over the next few years.

  133. paul gerard mccormack says:

    ok guys I’ve had with these fuckwits, these spongers, these parasitical creeps that no one would give house room to, these evil conniving bastards every one of them, these spineless hypocrites, the worst that mankind or the devil for that matter has ever spawned, that creeping jesus, wankers, wankers all, patronising fuckers. There – I just had to get that off my visceral chest. I can get on with my day now. Thank you wings, that was good. There is no point in ‘debating’ with these people.

  134. Ken500 says:

    UK raises £490Billion in taxes. Reduced £110 Billion. (It was £600Billion raised) Westminster borrows and spends £110Billion. The deficit/debt has not been paid off. It is increasing.

    Scotland raises £59Billion in taxes. It could save £3Billion (Trident/’loss leading’ drink).The rest of the rest of the UK borrows and spends £10Billion more. (pro rata)

    Scotland raises enough taxes for all it’s needs and would be in surplus. Scotland pays it’s way and is not subsidised.

  135. Tam Jardine says:

    john king

    I was trying to be charitable, considered and fair in my post but it is not easy.

    I actually saw him sneaking down the stairs at the big Usher Hall gig looking fairly nervous and furtive. It must have been strange for this obsessive monitor of Yes and SNP watching all these evil blood and soil nationalists enjoying such a wonderful, genuine and sincere celebration of the campaign.

    I half expected him to hammer on the glass ‘NOOOO!’ like the end of the Graduate.

  136. says:

    Get 40 SNP members in Westminster. A deal could be done to get rid of Trident. A navy base at Faslane. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. Stop the illegal invasions, which cause migration. Trade and give aid, do not invade.

    Holyrood could concentrate on creating jobs and getting rid of poverty.

  137. Les Wilson says:

    paul gerard mccormack says:

    Paul you are right.
    I take it you don’t like them then! Ha!

  138. Macart says:

    Here’s the thing.

    Labour clearly will be taking note of the fact that we haven’t gone away and will be more than aware that their coat is on a shoogly peg vis a vis their appalling actions throughout the referendum campaign and this coupled with their disastrous record in both parliaments. For the past couple of decades certainly, they’ve hung on to power because of the ‘that’s the way ma faither voted’ attitude prevalent in Scotland.

    The acts especially of Brown and Darling in order to retain the union were amongst the most politically and societally despicable I’ve seen loosed on a Scottish electorate. They literally said and promised anything that would gain them a result with absolutely no thought to the harm they would cause Scottish society. Self, party and retention of establishment political systems, literally came before the safety and well being of the people.

    They wrote cheques their party aren’t willing to back, simple as that. Now though in the aftermath of the vote DC has reverted to type and stabbed Labour in the back as have the Lib Dems. Labour’s leader is perceived nationally to be weak and ineffective, they desperately need those feeble forty seats come the looming GE and their piss poor devo proposals have left them hopelessly exposed in Scotland for the ‘devo journey’ charlatans they’ve always been. In fact they are facing electoral disaster in Scotland by their historic standards of dominance.

    Q. If in their desperation, they made yet one more plea on devo proposals offering a handful more powers than their stated ‘zero’ position above. Would anyone believe them? Since clearly even then, neither Brown’s, Darling’s or the Daily Record’s devo vow would be on the table.

    Frankly, just what is the purpose of Labour North Britain if not Westminster’s way of keeping the rowdy natives in check?

    If we are forced to walk this devo path in the short term there’s only one way we’ll get any damn thing worth having and that is to send pro indy representatives to Westminster in May. SNP, Green, SSP if your candidate has a chance in a given area get your vote on. If they don’t, then pick the candidate of those three parties who do and vote for them instead. We need to fill that Westminster contingent with people who actually give a damn about Scotland’s people. Its time to remind those pricks that we are not simply electoral coinage or cannon fodder, we are people with needs and rights and we’re also their bosses.

  139. Les Wilson says:

    This is a brilliant, yet simple, but so effective with it’s message.

    This should feature as a centerpiece poster/ bill board for ALL the Indy parties and supporters, in the 2015 Elections AND the 2016 Scottish elections.Don’t start me about labour!

  140. galamcennalath says:

    SNP Deputy. I was told by email I had joined in time to vote and that I should receive a voting email on 22nd. It arrived, and I voted. A simple vote always makes me feel like I’m doing something important, even if it’s with a party.

  141. Helena Brown says:

    Good Morning and I hope I can remain in a better humour today though I doubt it.
    Caught Dr Patrick on the Scottish Statesman as well as the piece on here.
    You may not know also that Alan Grogan has left the ahem Scottish Labour for Indie and joined the SSP, so Ian you have another member.
    Did any of us imagine that any of the Unionist Parties were going to do anything in a tiny way of Devo Anything. Course not, which is why we should be concentrating our efforts on stymieing the good works of the BBC and those nasty Unionist Newspapers.
    I would also like to inform you about another little bit of nastiness which our ahem Government are up to.
    Do any of you remember people speaking about a new television series called Outlander. This from a series of books by US author Diana Gabaldon. This series is now on in the States and just about every where in the world but the place where the story originates, here.
    Methinks and I am not alone, if you look up Outlander online, you will see many many people who came to the same conclusion as me, that this has been stopped by our Unionist friends in case it so riled the Scots into voting YES. We are about to be treated to more English History in the way of a dramatised version of the Great Fire Of London, but something which shows the English in a bad light in their treatment of Scotland and the Scots, no that will never do.

  142. Ken500 says:

    Get 40 SNP MP’s in Westminster and get control of Broadcasting etc. Gradually devolve every thing. They can’t secretly steal from Scotland now. Everyone is watching.

    Holyrood could invest in childcare etc. An inheritance tax on non productive land.

  143. Pin says:

    We’ll get income tax and nothing else. What a waste of time

  144. Christian Schmidt says:

    I really do not understand this tax devolution business.

    Why can’t we abolish the block grant and tell the Scottish Government that it has to raise its own taxes for its own spend.

    I admit that would either require Westminster to operate two budgets (one for all-UK services such as defence which would be funded by all-UK taxes and one England-only services such as the English NHS which would be funded by England-only taxes) or devolution for England. But all this ‘which taxes should be devolved is ridiculous.

  145. Christian Schmidt says:

    Actually, there is another way, using what would be effectively a reverse block grant: Devolve 100% of all taxes to Scotland. The UK government simply tells Scotland what its share of the undevolved services is, and the Scottish government then pays a block grant to the UK government for these services. I think the Basque Country operates under such a system.

  146. Grouse Beater says:

    Helena: if you look up Outlander online, you will see many many people who came to the same conclusion as me, that this has been stopped by our Unionist friends in case it so riled the Scots into voting YES

    Refusal – it will be termed ‘delay’ – to give it a UK transmission is in keeping with many another altering of reality by the media. To show it would provoke the wrath of Unionists. (I tend to use the term ‘media’ in its original sense, as separate from the press.)

    But then, it’s in line with BBC millions spent on dramatising obscure English novels of yesteryear (and filming them in Edinburgh!) while ignoring the entire works of Sir Walter Scott, RL Stevenson, and every Scottish contemporary historical novelist.

    To show such heathen material proud of its country and history at a time of political debate would inflame our Braveheart passions and have us lose our senses.

    By omission from our awareness and their promotion those things are not missed.

    There’s not been a single documentary tracing the work of our great artists of last century, musicians, architects, or engineering pioneers.

    Instead we get inflammatory English historians such as Shama telling us we are silly wanting to run our own country, or nasty bad tempered, camp historians telling us we are a small place and ineffectual.

    BBC Scotland turned down a series – a fashionable mixture of plants and wild places and adventure, about one of the world’s greatest plant hunters, George Forrest, a man who worked in Edinburgh’s Royal Botantic Gardens. He guarded his finds in the Himalayas and China with a rifle.

    He’s in the world history books with his famous Labrador, he seen as the earliest Indiana Jones. He’s just not in BBC’s book of concerns.

    BBC Scotland turned down a documentary on Dr James Rae, (with their usual pleasant evasions) discoverer of the North West Passage, a son of Orkney.

    Rae joined the Hudson Bay company, and, learning the ways of the indigenous tribes he could even fashion his own snow shoes. He soon became a great fearless explorer.

    When he discovered the remnants of the previous search, Sir John Franklin who had disappeared, and spoke in London at the Royal Society of evidence of canabilism, the British Establishment turned on him, led by Lady Franklin and none other than Charles Dickens.

    Rae died forgotten and penniless in a London garrett. Franklin was accredited with discovering the North West Passage.

    The calumny has never been fully righted, though some – like myself – have tried.

    We should not be in the least surprised when BBC ignores a worldwide drama success about Scots dressed in plaid flashing swords and poetic language. The symbolism might turn our brains to mush.

  147. Mealer says:

    Christian Schmidt,
    That’s exactly how it should work.

  148. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tam Jardine says: 23 October, 2014 at 12:37 am:

    “It’s a shame because he seems like a intelligent guy but he has truly lost his way.”

    Torrence never managed to find the way in the first place, Tam. Like many others his apparent intelligence is a thin venneer that was peeling at the corners since he came upon the scene.

  149. Ken500 says:

    Scotland losses £10Billion (lost Oil tax revenues etc) to Westminster. Mismanagement. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £10Billion more (pro rata) = £20Billion.

  150. Luigi says:

    Les Wilson says:

    23 October, 2014 at 9:11 am

    This is a brilliant, yet simple, but so effective with it’s message.

    This should feature as a centerpiece poster/ bill board for ALL the Indy parties and supporters, in the 2015 Elections AND the 2016 Scottish elections.Don’t start me about labour!

    Yep – I would like to see brilliant reminders like this everywhere – starting now. If the referendum campaign taught us anything it is that really big issues cannot be settled in people’s minds in the last few days for a campaign. With a ferocious anti-independence campaign by BBC MSM, a number of unsettled people who could have voted YES, changed their minds at the last minute. All it took was a wee bit of Labour promise (dare I say “positivity”) just before the vote to seal the deal.

    There is no point in worrying about peaking too early etc, we need to start sowing the DevoMax seeds now, before our enemies get their GE act together. We know the nature of our enemy – the BBC MSM is a powerful beast that can persuade fearful, unsettled minds just before a vote. They did it in 2007 (the SNP scraped it, but they should have won comfortably). They tried it again in 2011, but by then people’s minds had settled that an SNP government was beneficial and so it failed miserably. We need to start the GE campaign now and settle more of those minds before the BBC MSM onslaught begins.

    People are on journeys – we need to start helping them on their way now, and not worry about peaking too early.

  151. galamcennalath says:

    Looking again at the simple picture portrayed in the table.

    I just can’t believe the amount of ammunition which the Unionists, especially SLab, have handed out to be used against them. DevoNano -> DevoMax -> DevoNano

    Must be the biggest and quickest turnaround in UK politics!

    And, if you subcribe to the theory (I do) which says BT only won by promises/offers/vows acting to reverse a small Yes lead, then Unionists’ betrayal is so blatantly clear.

    MSM / BBC will try to hide all this, of course. IMO it’s just too monsterous to hide! The stink is just too much! No Unionist politician can ever again appear in public without being challenged and heckled over their actions.

    At this moment in time I can only see advances for Indy parties.

    The problem is going to be “which is worst?” mentality, where enough Scots revert to SLab backing “to keep the Tories out”. SLab must be hounded for the next 6 months and shown as the cheats and liars they are, but also, as Red Tories.

  152. AuldA says:

    @Christian Schmidt:

    Why can’t we abolish the block grant and tell the Scottish Government that it has to raise its own taxes for its own spend.

    Uh. That’s called independence, no? 🙂

    It could be worth also examining how the various autonomous regions of Italy (Val d’Aoste, Trentino – Alto-Adige, Sicily and Sardinia) work. For example, I know that residents in Val d’Aoste pay gas a lot less. Apparently, they enjoy a large fiscal autonomy.

    BTW, oil/gas taxes are also not included in the above table.

  153. Luigi says:

    I wonder if it is possible to set up smart (digital) posters in a few busy places around Scotland.

    A really effective one would be to set up a UK debt counter, alongside a Norwegian Oil Fund counter. Both are going up at stupendous rates! Scots are getting poorer and Norwegians are getting richer by the minute (literally).

    The contrast is mesmerising, I’m surprised no one has thought of showing them together.

  154. Flower of Scotland says:

    That is a great graphic and was shared and shared on Facebook, so many other people thought so too.

    I’ve just been in touch with the SNP about my voting form for deputy leader. If you have a gmail account you should get the email sometime today. If not phone them on the members no in Edinburgh late afternoon.

  155. Devorgilla says:

    Chistian Scmidt:

    I think what you are arguing for makes perfect sense, and is what we would call full fiscal autonomy (FFA). Or Devo Max. That is the SNP’s position. But it has never been on offer. You underestimate what power hungry control freaks the UK government are. They keep us on a very tight leash. This is an instinctive position. They used to run an empire, remember.

    However for FFA to work, Scotland would need to have the power to create new taxes and vary current ones. For instance, a tax or cap on rents, as this would have the effect of reducing the welfare bill, since a large part of that goes on housing subsidies for the poorest – there is no link in the UK between earnings and housing costs. The UK government has presided over a laissez-faire house price boom and bubble which finds its reflection in rents for those who cannot afford to buy. A financially responsible government would obviously want to rein this in, to restore housing costs to what people can actually afford, especially the poorest.

    At present UK revenues and expenditures do not balance. And this is reflected in Scotland, where we also spend more than our revenues currently generate. The obvious solution to this imbalance is either that you cut costs, or you raise taxes, The Chancellor tries to lower expenditure – with disastrous results for the poorest – but he refuses to raise taxes, except on things like the excise. Instead he borrows cheap foreign money to plug the gap. Last month he borrowed £11.6 billion. But would Scotland be allowed to do this? Probably not. Would Scotland want to be able to do this? Probably not, not simply to pay for welfare anyway, but perhaps for investment in public housing, as this could in time lower welfare costs if there was a stock of affordable housing.

  156. Ken500 says:

    Don’t get angry, get even. There is still much that can be done. A GE is coming soon. More campaigning.

  157. galamcennalath says:

    Helena Brown says:
    Outlander …. this has been stopped by our Unionist friends in case it so riled the Scots into voting YES.

    Definitely was. The first few episodes were released throughout the English speaking world, and far beyond, a few weeks before the vote. My friend in NZ says it’s a good going tale of daring do, and yes, distinctly freedom loving Scottish versus occupying English. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind it would have had a ‘Braveheart Effect’ on voting. I don’t know how big, but it could have swung it. Dare I say, swinging it for the wrong reasons. However, a win would have been a win!

    Look at the NaeSayer ‘success’! They certainly won for all the wrong reasons! Fearmongering, lying, deceit, personality attack. Nothing compared to stirring up a bit of heart over brain patriotism!

    Will we ever see it officially broadcast? Actually I doubt it. DVD release? Perhaps. They know we haven’t gone away. Next skirmish is WM2015 and they won’t want any ‘Braveheart Effect’ kicking then either.

  158. Macart says:

    Speaking of graphic examples of how people have been royally conned in the referendum, a good suggestion from David McCann over on Derek Bateman’s blog. Post this as a permanent link on every indy blog.

  159. Martin Wood says:

    As an aside – I thought there wuz nae oil left?

    or have they just made another “Major oil field discovery in the North Sea” (according to STV news)

    Guess we’re not getting that either

  160. David Torrence blocked me on twitter a week ago.

  161. AuldA says:

    An article (in Italian, sorry boys) about the fiscal system in place in the autonomous region of Val d’Aoste, Italy. Only 10% of the all the taxes, VAT included, return(s) to Rome.

  162. fred blogger says:

    Martin Wood
    by no stretch of the imagination can that be described as a major discovery.

  163. Quentin Quale says:

    A great graphic. Probably time to drop the ‘Scottish’ bit from in front of Labour – seems as if they are well and truly shackled to London Head Office. If they aren’t fighting for Scotland (which clearly they are not) they are not fit for purpose.

  164. ClanDonald says:

    I’m proposing a project called the 25 Doorsteps.

    There are now more than 90,000 SNP/Green/SSP members to cover roughly 2.3 m households in Scotland. This works out at about 25 doorsteps each that we have to visit and we’ve got the whole country covered. Less if we dont visit our own houses. It should be a doddle now.

    Every single voter should now have access to the sort of information contained in this graphic, no excuses. Lets get organised at branch level, we could even organise ourselves our 25 households which we take responsibility for and get to know every single resident on a first name basis. We could visit them regularly between now and May. If we each print off 25 copies of important documents (like this graphic) and drop them off to our 25 houses we could have the whole country informed of this in no time.

    Come on folks, lets do this, lets get to work. I’ll take on 25 farm tracks like Morag so someone else without a car can do a 3 tenement closes.

  165. Luigi says:

    UK National Debt Clocks and Norwegian Oil Fund clocks need to be shown side by side. Digital posters are the way to go.

  166. MochaChoca says:


    I think oil and gas taxes should be covered under corporation tax.

    The current Westminster ‘get-out clause’ is that they are attributed to their own ‘ex-regio’ region. But that is something we shall have to remedy.

  167. Robert Louis says:


    That graphic you highlighted regarding taxation should be printed out and handed to each participant of the Smith commission.

    The graphic at the head of this article, reveals very clearly the outrageous cynicism of the Labour party towards Scotland. The fact that their proposals are much weaker than the Tories, tells us all we need to know about what Labour would do for Scotland if it were ever in power again – sweet F all.

    At least the Tories are honest about being complete and utter bleeps, whereas Labour tries to pretend to Scots that it is different, when in reality it is just a RED version of the Tory party.

    As regards David Torrance, I’ve never been overly impressed with his writing online and in newspapers – maybe he makes less effort than he does in his books. Regardless of his viewpoint, his pieces are often rather simplistic, revealing a lack of depth of political insight which other commentators such as McWhirter give in spadefuls.

    His only redeeming feature, so far as I can see, is his winning smile.

  168. Fred says:

    I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from looking too deeply into Torrance’s contribution to the national debate. He’s just one boring tosser who has used the referendum debate to promote his dismal profile.
    Speaking of tossers, is it not thoroughly depressing seeing the oily Tavish Scott sitting round a table discussing our future. Most depressing of all is the predelection of the folk in the northern counties in returning clapped-out lairdlings like Scott & Thurso. This is the 21st century for Gods sake!

  169. biggpolmont says:

    Labour party’s teachings & answers to everything

    L ies! they are all lies put about by the nasty SNP
    A nything the Scottish Government says is wrong
    B ullshit the public they are stupid.they’ll believe anything
    O ur ideas are right everyone else’s are wrong
    U ndermine any positive points keep the public scared
    R idicule anyone who stands up to you

    B luff your way out of an awkward situation
    U se threats of impending doom if party line is not followed
    L ie when you need to
    L ie when you don’t need to
    S hout louder than you opponent
    H old the part line
    I ntimidate where you can
    T ell them that Ed and joanne know best

  170. Macart says:


    Oh cynicism doesn’t cover it for Labour. They need Scotland and its votes since they simply don’t appeal to enough voters where it counts. They need the UK to be a single country for party needs and they need us all to be grey, unremarkable and without individual cultures or personalities. Their idea of brotherhood is the crushing of individuality and living cultural history and replacing it with homogeneity and political culture. Its a concept that reduces us all to political coinage. Its a concept that leaves the state completely in charge. Instead of our governance reflecting and serving the needs and wants of the people, we reflect and serve theirs.

    Labour are well aware that Scotland provides votes and seats necessary for them to wield significant majority as and when they ever convince enough people down south to let them in again, but to what end as far as we are concerned? Have successive Labour governments prevented any economic carnage in Scotland? Not on any evidence to hand. We were simply used to gain influence in the south east and our monies and resources squandered.

    Well I’m sick of being used as a parliamentary bit coin. I’m well fucking sick of being lied to then forgotten for about five years at a time in a never ending cycle of being promised the moon and given the shit end of the stick. Right up until the next time our vote is required. Labour are dead to me, they lied to us, then abandoned us in favour of a system of government which never tires of telling us how crap we are as a people or as a contributor/participant in this union. They’ve spent the past three years telling us how proud they are to be Scots but that we’re clearly no hopers in the looking after ourselves stakes.

    Let’s get shot. I’ll never vote for those who actively denigrate their own electorate.

  171. Grouse Beater says:

    James Caithness: David Torrance blocked me on twitter

    He looks out of an American frat film: ‘Revenge of the Nerds.’

    His all-too common appearances are a sure sign of how Scotland is kept second-rate when mediocrity is promoted with ease and given top billing.

  172. Macnakamura says:

    Fred says
    Speaking of tossers, is it not thoroughly depressing seeing the oily Tavish Scott sitting round a table discussing our future.
    He is representing his party.
    Your description of him demonstrates why he is such an ideal person to do so.

  173. Helena Brown says:

    galamcennalath, I discovered that you could get it on Amazon and have it transmitted through the cable channel but only in the US. Right now we are definitely being discriminated and yes I agree it will NEVER be put on TV here. I think we might be lucky to even be able to buy it on DVD, ever. You cannot view it on YouTube, you cannot view it from abroad. As my Husband has just said this is cultural genocide. This series was made here with Scots Actors. Funnily enough you can buy Black Sails, made by the same company on DVD and you can have it downloaded by Amazon.
    I would like to say that there is an interesting letter on Scottish Statesman from a man who writes from Australia about the same tricks being imposed on the Australian Labor Party by I imagine the Establishment as we have here, worth a look, Name of Drew on the article about Dr Patrick.

  174. Proud Cybernat says:

    If Scotland is to recover its independence then the independence movement must press Westminster’s buttons. The No-voting population of Scotland don’t see that the velvet glove treatment from Westminster disguises an iron fist. They need to see that iron fist; see for themselves how much contempt Westminster has for them. To win minds here in Scotland we need Westminster to reveal its true colours–they are masters of deceit and rule with the velvet touch. Only when Scots sees the British State for what it truly is, will there be a possibility of winning minds.

    So, how do we do that? As I said–we press Westminster’s buttons.

    In the 2015 GE Scotland returns a majority of SNP MPs who immediately declare UDI.

    Then watch Westminster’s velvet glove vanish in a blur of Scotch mist and the iron fist will take its place. TEHN the people of this country will waken up and see for themselves what we are really dealing with. Then we will change minds.

  175. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:
    Helena Brown says:
    “Outlander …. this has been stopped by our Unionist friends in case it so riled the Scots into voting YES. ”

    downloaded the first 8 episodes from bittorrent

    a cringe worthy sequel to the bridle path,historically inaccurate, boddice ripping, porridge western

    the plebs will love it

  176. Fairliered says:

    Yet another example of Labour lies
    PS if there is a by-election in the North Coast & Cumbraes ward of North Ayrshire Council next Thursday (30th), following the sad death of SNP Councillor Alex McLean. His widow, Grace is standing for the SNP. North Ayrshire currently has 11 SNP, 11 Labour, 6 Independent and 1 Tory councillors. The SNP are running the council with the support of some of the independents and the tory. Labour are desperate to regain control. If anybody wants to help ensure that Labour don’t regain control of North Ayrshire Council, please come and help get Grace elected. Contact the Largs Yes Shop on 01475 674463 or call in between 11am and 4pm.

  177. Marcia says:


    “The discovery is our third successful well this year…”

    All after 18 September?

  178. Author_Al says:

    In case you have ever wondered about the skills of the BBC Scotland online news team…

    “On your online rolling news piece about dictionaries you wrote ‘At one point in the 1900s there were four dictionary companies in Scotland alone. William Collins’ has been past through six generations of the Collins family and this edition contains 750,000 words and phrases.’ Passed not past. 😉 Dictionary needed perhaps?”

    It was changed within 5 minutes. Hopefully they can change their biased pro-Labour agenda as well…

  179. Helena Brown says:

    schrodingers cat: Yes I never would describe it as a historically accurate story but then it is fiction with a basis in fact. Never heard a word about the accuracy of MacBeth which is a real bit of mince. Seems it is only OUR history which must be denigrated. Surely if it is so innocuous then it would be fine to be distributed through normal means and not through using a file sharing system. Diana Gabaldon would never describe herself as a historian but then don’t you think David Starkey should either him or Simon Sharma.
    I expected better from you.

  180. caz-m says:

    Since Thatcher was elected in 1979 Scotland has been stripped of her assets, her heavy industry, her pride, her confidence.

    The only thing that has grown in Scotland in all those years is our feeling of dependency. This is probably what is at the root of Scots who were frightened to take that final step over the line to full Independence.

    And this is the message Scottish Labour are still trying to put into people heads today, that we are to stupid to look after all this tax stuff and money things, let Westminster do that for you.

    So you have to put it to your local Labour MP, “what have you got against Scotland being in control of her own affairs”.

    And don’t give up until you get a straight answer from them.

  181. a supporter says:

    My understanding is that the SNP’s “everything but defence and foreign affairs” includes oil revenues. Why have you not included those in your graphic?

  182. Xaracen says:

    From the SNP’s submission to the Smith Commission:

    “Our proposal is therefore for a transition to full domestic economic and fiscal autonomy.
    This would mean that all onshore and offshore taxes would be designed and set in Scotland, including tax rates, allowances, thresholds and the tax bases. An exception might be VAT – and potentially some excise duties – because EU rules require them to be largely uniform across the United Kingdom. For any reserved taxes, revenues would be assigned to the Scottish budget.

    (My bolding.)
    Basically, the Partial/Caveats bit means that the Scottish Government couldn’t set the levels or perhaps collect them directly, but the relevant revenues should still nevertheless come to the Scottish Government.

  183. fred blogger says:

    yes, the UK “government” has more in common with a board of directors, than a bastion of democracy for the people by the people, we now serve it.

  184. Macart says:

    More on John McLaren’s intervention over on Derek Bateman’s blog.

    Worth a read.

  185. SquareHaggis says:

    I see the Lib Dems have gone for middle of the road.
    Five of each and a maybe.
    Nothin like a switherin’ wee Wullie.
    No change there then.

    Labour on the other hand are caught in their own headlights having created the work of a batshit crazy road-kill fanatic after a dark night of myxomatosis road-kill.

  186. H says:

    Gallus Alice talks shite again, remember folks she is the MSP for Pollock but the MP for Glasgow south west is Ian Davidson, this is the also labour, the UK general election is prior to the Scottish parliament, lets see Glasgow south west go SNP, Gallus Alice will shit her pants 😀

  187. Xaracen says:

    Forgot to add that oil revenues would be covered as part of Corporation Taxes and Fuel Duties, as long as we don’t let Westminster pretend the oil fields are not in Scottish territory.

    For my money, anywhere that Scots Law prevails is Scottish Territory, and my understanding is that the oil fields north of approx 55°N Latitude are under the legal jurisdiction of Scots Law, in spite of the illegitimate annexation of Scottish waters undertaken by Tony Blair and Donald Dewar.

  188. Roboscot says:

    One mistake with the graphic: the Conservatives are in favour of devolving air passenger duty.

  189. liz says:

    I agree we must get a maximum number of Yes Mps into WM and if full devo max is not achieved then we work for indyref 2 to be run quickly.

    I don’t think the WM parties would be up for more disruption and we have now got the truth about more oil, jobs going at Lloyds, fracking, BoE underwriting the £ in Scotland until we set up our own currency etc and the devo nano disgrace from Lab.

    I still cant get over EBradford getting away with bare faced lies about the NHS and not being disciplined.
    If any of us did that in our jobs, we would be on a written warning.

  190. @ Helena Brown
    Ref Outlander
    Being a follower of `Clan Farquharson USA` on twitter there were loads of tweets about Outlander ,it seemed to be a big thing in USA .
    I like you wondered at the total lack of any Media coverage this side of the Pond.
    Just shows you the power of the Media,A massive television series about Scotland seen throughout the World and yet because of Media blackout we hear nothing.
    What else does the Media censor ?


  191. muttley79 says:


    Labour in Scotland don’t know who they are, why they exist, what they want, what they are doing, what they stand for – and we don’t ever understand WTF they are talking about.

    This is a good assessment of SLAB.

  192. ben madigan says:

    Reblogged the table here

    With a little more information gleaned from comments

  193. YESGUY says:


    That’s something i did. I live in a block of two x 6 flats and around 24 houses. Everyone in the street gets a visit from me when i can to bring them up to speed on developments.

    During voting i commandeered my son as duty driver and took folk to vote. My street is all SNP.

    Xmas has taken over for now but they know i will be around when the GE starts proper.

    CD, i think many YESSERS did this so it’s a great idea and i for one will be doing the same in the GE.

    The graph above by the ref is just the tonic , along with Munguins who puts lots of pics on his site. or those that can’t read past the headline , they are invaluable.

    Keep talking, remind them they are being conned. Don’t be too soft on your approach either , hammer it into anyone who will listen, Labour/BBC/STV/The rags LIE.

    I think we might be surprised by the GE result. Fingers crossed.

  194. Robert Peffers says:

    @Christian Schmidt says: 23 October, 2014 at 9:48 am:

    “I really do not understand this tax devolution business.”

    Och! Chrisian, (By the Way your christian name is a traditional one that has run through my own family since at least the early 1600s), there really is nothing difficult about the United Kingdom Tax system. It is designed from the ground up to rob Scotland blind. It was always their object since long before the Scottish/English wars of independence.

    They annexed Wales in 1284, annexed Ireland in 1542 and were attempting to annex Scotland. The English Navigational Acts led them into wars with the rest of Europe and they applied those acts against Scotland even after we found ourselves with the crowns of the independent three country Kingdom of England and the crown of the Independent Kingdom of Scotland on the same person’s head

    The Navigational Acts eventually led to the American War of Independence. These wars left the English Kingdom with massive national debts. So enter, (stage left), The London Scot, “William Paterson”, who instigated a loan scheme for the English Parliament and started the Bank of England. Next time we meet Paterson he is in Scotland beginning the disasterous Darien Expedition while his close friend, Daniel Defoe was operating as an undercover agent for England in Edinburgh.

    In short the Kingdom of England were in financial difficulty: Engineered the bankruptcy of the Scottish parliamentarians: Forced the Treaty of Union and have been robbing us blind ever since. To the extent they now have Westminster as the De Facto Parliament of England operating as the United Kingdom and devolving Englands powers to Scotland, Wales & N.I.


  195. schrodingers cat says:

    Helena Brown says:

    “schrodingers cat: Yes I never would describe it as a historically accurate story but then it is fiction with a basis in fact. Never heard a word about the accuracy of MacBeth which is a real bit of mince. Seems it is only OUR history which must be denigrated.
    I expected better from you.”

    it was a light hearted quip so dry yer eyes helena

    it is very stereo typical tv series and it does remind me of the 1950’s scottish films like the bridle path etc, but it is called the scottish game of thrones because of the amount of sex, not the dragons

    it was kept of our screens because of the referendum,agreed, along with a fair few other scottish historical films which were comissioned

  196. AuldA says:

    Nice acrostic!

    I think oil and gas taxes should be covered under corporation tax.

    What about cigarette taxes?

  197. Robert Peffers says:

    @James Caithness says:23 October, 2014 at 10:42 am:

    “David Torrence blocked me on twitter a week ago.”

    Aye!James, but these overgrown, self-centred, juvenile political commentators are very adept at dishing it out but rather shy when it comes to fielding incoming flack.

  198. Robert Peffers says:

    Quentin Quale says: 23 October, 2014 at 10:45 am:

    ”A great graphic. Probably time to drop the ‘Scottish’ bit from in front of Labour … ”

    Actually, Quentin, there never was a time to adopt the, “Scottish”, bit in front of Labour. If you look at the list of Registered Political Parties in the United Kingdom you will not find one titled, “Scottish Labour”. You will find the list here : –

  199. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 23 October, 2014 at 11:50 am:

    “Only when Scots sees the British State for what it truly is, will there be a possibility of winning minds.

    Well, Proud Cybernat, the Scots might have quite a job, “seeing the British State for what it truly is”, considering there are actually five, “British States”, and they are, The Republic of Ireland, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Gurensey and the Isle of Man – Now what was that fifth one again? When you get old like me you tend to forget things, Let me see … Oh! Wait! Now I remember it’s, the bipartite, but four country, “United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.

    Seems you may be a victim of that United Kingdom Government’s propaganda, Proud Cybernat. Cheer-up though for that goes for most of us in the Independence Movement for, “The Westminster Establishment”, has been at this game since before the Scottish/English wars of independence. In fact they have been at it since the Germanic Tribes were invited to South Britain after the Roman’s left.

  200. Andy-B says:

    So in other words Labour the so called party of the people want to give to Holyrood ergo the people, well, nothing, really.

    Tell me again why would anyone vote Labour?

  201. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andy-B says: 23 October, 2014 at 2:53 pm:

    “So in other words Labour the so called party of the people want to give to Holyrood ergo the people, well, nothing, really. Tell me again why would anyone vote Labour?”

    Don’t ask me – I’ve wondered about that for over 50 years.

    Something about that question reminds me of Turkeys being asked to vote for their choice between Christmas & Thanksgiving in the USA.

  202. Robert Peffers says:

    @chalks says: 23 October, 2014 at 10:25 pm:

    “… so you arent exactly understanding my point are you?

    Oh! I Understand you very well. I’m just pointing out where you are making basic errors. When someone draws conclusions with such errors in their thinking they usually get things wrong.

    Here we go again, you say, “There is no need for a Parliament, the countries can have agreements, …”

    The UK is not a country – it is exactly as its title describes it as, a United, KINGDOM.

    “I dont understand your next point, you do realise the uk is the member state, not Scotland. Uk votes to leave, so does Scotland.”

    Here you do it yet again. Scotland is both an equally sovereign partner in a bipartite United Kingdom and a Country. Scotland, (the Kingdom), is the equally sovereign partner of the Kingdom of England and the United Kingdom is the union of the two equally sovereign Kingdoms.

    “It matters not one iota if we vote to stay in, we are not a country” Err” Tes we are a country – That was the point.

    “Westminster is the sovereign parly”

    Actually Westminster IS NOT legally sovereign over The Kingdom of Scotland. That again is the whole point. The reason that the Treaty of Union had the Scottish legal system remain independent is that in 1688 the Parliament of England deposed the Monarch of England and imported King Billy but removed the veto he held over the Parliament of the three country Kingdom of England. That made that Kingdom a Constitutional Monarchy.

    In Scotland, in 1320, The Scots made the Declaration of Arbroath and declared the monarch was not sovereign as the people of Scotland were. Thus out monarch is Elizabeth Queen of Scots. Protector of the people’s sovereignty. We have never given up our legal sovereignty.

    “… as the eu does not recognise Scotland as a country”

    Where did you get that idea from?

    “The EU recognizes The United Kingdom as the Member State”, does not imply they either recognize the entity described as a United KINGDOM is either a country or anything other than a Member State.
    Nowhere does it state they do not recognize Scotland, England, Wales or N.I as countries.

    “It recognises the UK.Scotland is a region” You’ll have a site for that claim then, Chalks?

    “Lastly, your point on the eu commission?Again, dont think you understand, any one nenber state sympathetic to scots indy, could have asked the parly,commission or council what would happen in the event of a yes. They did not.

    Whoa! There! As pointed out the EC are commissioners, (paid servants), they apply the EU laws – they do not make them not debate them. Thge closest they get is to question the EU for clarity or to suggest changes. In fact as has been posted on these comments some members of the EC have indeed made comments on Scottish Membership.

    I’m pointing out that neither the EU or EC can interfere between two sides in an internal dispute of a member state. Especially when that member state is a political union both split up as two kingdoms and four countries.

    Not until the state has sorted out its internal differences and even then they must treat all sides equally. As far as the EU is concerned the member state is a bipartite United Kingdom now split internally as four countries . Please realise that a state, a kingdom and a country are all legally different things.

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