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The meaning of devo-max

Posted on November 07, 2014 by

As the Smith Commission continues its fundamentally pointless and impossible deliberations, in which it’s expected to digest and consider many thousands of submissions (including hundreds of detailed ones from political organisations and “civic Scotland”) in around three weeks, the Scottish and UK press is still casually and inaccurately tossing around the term “devo-max”.

devomax

There seem to be essentially two competing interpretations of the term – the previously-understood meaning (also known as “Full Fiscal Autonomy”) in which all powers are devolved to Holyrood except foreign affairs and defence, and a new one which simply refers to whatever devolution Westminster is prepared to grant. (Justified semantically by the claim that it’s the maximum devolution Scotland’s going to get.)

So when we commissioned our latest Panelbase poll, we decided that rather than the usual checklist of “which powers should be devolved”, to which the answers have remained the same for years, we’d ask some slightly different questions about the relationship between Holyrood and Westminster, and the process of devolution itself, to see if we could determine what it is that the people of Scotland really want from their Parliament.

————————————————————————————————-

Broadly speaking, do you agree or disagree with the  following statements about the relationship between Holyrood and Westminster?

————————————————————————————————-

– The leader of any party represented in the Scottish Parliament should always be an MSP, not a Westminster MP.

Agree: 61%
Disagree: 20%
Don’t know: 19%

————————————————————————————————-

A large majority across all parties for this one, with the SNP most in favour but voters of all parties backing it by at least a 20-point margin. Labour voters agreed by 52% to 30%, which makes it slightly odd that all three of their most-favoured candidates for Scottish leader (Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy and Alistair Darling) are MPs from the “big-boy” parliament down south.

Even No voters backed the proposal by almost 2:1 (50-28).

————————————————————————————————-

– The Scottish Parliament should have the power to make any Westminster MP representing a Scottish seat appear in front of its committees.

Agree: 68%
Disagree: 13%
Don’t know: 19%

————————————————————————————————-

This might seem a rather arcane procedural question, but it cuts to the heart of what the people of Scotland expect of the Scottish Parliament. UK government ministers often refuse to come to Holyrood and answer to its committees, but it’s clear that the Scottish electorate expects its Westminster representatives to be accountable to the devolved chamber and accord it proper respect.

Again this answer crossed all political divides – No voters supported the proposal by a whopping 58% to 20%, and even Conservatives, the least enthusiastic, backed it by a resounding 52% to 31%.

————————————————————————————————-

– Any package of further devolution proposed by the UK government should be subject to the approval of the Scottish Parliament.

Agree: 74%
Disagree: 13%
Don’t know: 13%

————————————————————————————————-

Admirably, the Scottish people are considerably more wary of the promise of “more powers” than any of their media. An overwhelming three-quarters of respondents wanted to see the Scottish Parliament – in practice, the SNP – scrutinise any proposals from Westminster before accepting them.

Once more, the answer united the sample – even No voters wanted Holyrood to have a veto over any new plans, by a margin of 66% to 19%. One day we hope to see someone in a newspaper or TV show actually question what the proposals of the three London parties would mean for Scotland in reality, rather than just blindly and lazily assuming that more powers = good.

————————————————————————————————-

– Any package of further devolution proposed by the UK government should be subject to the approval of the Scottish people in a referendum.

Agree: 50%
Disagree: 31%
Don’t know: 20%

————————————————————————————————-

Intriguingly, though, voters were much more inclined to trust Holyrood with that decision than to take it into their own hands. This question marked the first divide in this section of the poll – Yes voters wanted the final say by 66% to 16%, but No voters narrowly preferred to leave it to the Scottish Parliament, by 44% to 37%.

Those stats perhaps expose the fact that Scottish voters are a lot smarter than the press when it comes to understanding the difference between the SNP and the Yes movement. With the Nats still commanding a majority in the chamber, giving them control of the decision means that most No voters trusted them to protect Scotland from an unfavourable settlement.

(The only exceptions were Labour voters, who backed a referendum by 40% to 35%.)

————————————————————————————————-

– The Scottish Parliament should control ALL revenues raised in Scotland, including North Sea oil, and then pay a lump sum to Westminster for shared UK services, rather than receiving a lump sum to pay for devolved services.

Agree: 62%
Disagree: 24%
Don’t know: 14%

————————————————————————————————-

This is essentially a description of “Full Fiscal Autonomy”, by which Scotland would have to stand entirely on its own financial feet, without the Barnett Formula, raising all its own expenditure from its own taxation, yet remaining within the UK and contributing to things like shared defence.

As such you’d expect it to meet with resounding ideological approval from Tory voters, yet they opposed it by a whopping 57% to 26%. Supporters of all the other parties were confident enough of Scotland’s economic position to want to take control of it themselves, by various margins – a net +7 for Lib Dem voters (44% to 37%), +21 from Labour ones and a hefty +76 from SNP supporters.

No voters as a whole backed FFA, or “true” devo-max, by 45% to 38%, with Yes voters exactly mirroring the SNP score of 84% for and just 8% against. Which raises a whole slew of questions that we’re not going to get into here.

————————————————————————————————-

– Any domestic bill (ie not relating to defence or foreign affairs) passed at Westminster affecting Scotland should only be implemented in Scotland if it commands a majority of Scottish MPs.

Agree: 65%
Disagree: 18%
Don’t know: 17%

————————————————————————————————-

With this question we really start to get a flavour of how strong the people of Scotland want their “home rule” to be. This proposal would have seen policies like the bedroom tax – opposed by the vast majority of Scottish MPs – rejected in Scotland. It’s a logical extension of the concept of “English votes for English laws”, and would be a demonstration of a real federalism, with no domestic law imposed without the (parliametary) consent of the people.

The proposal was strongly endorsed by No voters (54% to 27%) as well as Yes supporters, and across party boundaries, with even Tories narrowly in favour and 3:1 backing from Labour and Lib Dems.

What these findings show is that the appetite of the Scottish people for maximum devolution is undiminished, and far exceeds anything that there’s the remotest possibility of the Smith Commission proposing, let alone delivering. It seems reasonable to assume that whatever Scotland Bill eventually limps through the House of Commons will fall a long way short of satisfying the desires of the electorate.

And what happens then?

————————————————————————————————-

– The Scottish Parliament should have the legal authority to hold a referendum on any subject without requiring the permission of the UK government.

Agree: 51%
Disagree: 34%
Don’t know: 15%

————————————————————————————————-

We’ll leave you to assess that one for yourselves.

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  1. 07 11 14 17:42

    The meaning of devo-max - Speymouth

  2. 08 11 14 14:37

    The meaning of devo-max | Politics Scotland | ...

  3. 16 09 16 13:23

    Scotland shouldn't rush second indyref – that's Ireland's bitter lesson - StuntFM 97.3

256 to “The meaning of devo-max”

  1. Muscleguy says:

    I think the last one simply reflects referendum fatigue. I have heard colleagues I campaigned with in the referendum express doubts over their energy and enthusiasm for May. Frequent referenda are probably a nightmare for some campaigners.

    There is also the idea that taking on and having to fight a recalcitrant Westminster just to hold a referendum, maybe all the way to Strasbourg, would be a fillip for Independence. Sometimes to really value something you need to have to actually fight for it.

  2. No no no...Yes says:

    Fascinating results from an excellent set of questions. Good to see how well the crowd funding monies are spent.

    I wonder what Curtice will have to say about these figures.

  3. gillie says:

    Couldn’t be any plainer.

    Power should reside in Scotland and not Westminster.

  4. Gavin Alexander says:

    It was always going to be Devious Maximus…

  5. AuldA says:

    I thought “Devo” meant “Devotion to WestMasters”…

  6. Juteman says:

    Excellent questions.
    Why was there a No vote?
    As has often been said, independence is the favoured choice, as long as it isn’t called independence.
    This post has lifted my mood. It’s coming yet, for a’ that.

  7. TD says:

    What this amounts to is a strong statement that the Scottish people are effectively in favour of independence with the exceptions of foreign affairs and defence. But to me it is strange that people want to trust the UK with these two important matters. Do we really feel well represented in foreign policy matters – e.g. being in or out of Europe, bombing Iraq, being prepared to let people drown in the Mediterranean? And defence – having Trident imposed on us, not having any major surface ships based in Scotland, taking us into illegal wars?

    I am confused by the Scottish people’s apparent confusion.

  8. Dubai_Scot says:

    Stu,

    great article, but if I might interject, if the SNP do get a majority of the Scottish MP’s for Westminster, does that mean they get the right to suspend the Treaty of Union?

  9. Juteman says:

    The blog still isn’t working for me.
    There was four posts when I posted my reply, then my post vanished, and there was only two replies.
    Que sera.

  10. Grizzle McPuss says:

    Clear, concise and highly informative. An accurate reflection on what the thinking is within the Scottish Voting Beastie.

    Conclusion: we are indeed a mixed bag, but generally all heading in the same direction.

    Well done Stu, top notch.

  11. Kenny says:

    “As such you’d expect it to meet with resounding ideological approval from Tory voters, yet they opposed it by a whopping 57% to 26%”

    Ideologically, Tories are Communists. Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses. They cling to the state and are the epitomy of the “something for nothing” culture. Look no further than zero-hours contracts, use of interns, forcing the unemployed into slave labour at Poundland.

    No, if ever one any organisation exactly mirrored the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in ideological terms (state, state, state), it is the Tory Party, big business, CBI, bankers with their bail-outs…..

    The only party which wants Scotland to stand on its own two feet and be completely independent, for better or worse (the statistics say: better), is the SNP.

  12. Morag says:

    Kudos for devising these questions, Stu. When will we see this lot reported in the MSM, I wonder?

    *tumbleweed rolls on by…*

  13. Les Wilson says:

    I cannot see that Westminster will agree to most of these, I hope I am wrong. They are desperate to keep our oil, tax base etc.
    They are like junkies high on them.

  14. handclapping says:

    I wonder if Lord Smith will consider that these findings make his life easier? If he really is tasked to come up with a meaningful scheme of further devolution, then these findings give him solid backup for passing usable powers to Holyrood; all of social security, not only the NHS and free personal care, but also child allowances, JSA, Atos, pensions and all.

    Of course should he be there just to point out the lowest common denominator, these figures will be a further obstacle, hopefully.

  15. A.N.Surgent says:

    That poll actually restores my faith in the Scottish electorate. Couldn`t be more clearer about what people actually think what a Scottish Government should be responsible for.

    The referendum question result: seems that a lot of people think that we should seek westminister`s permission to run our own affairs. Over 50% saying that we can take that decision on our own is healthy indeed.

  16. muttley79 says:

    I wonder how long the likes of Lindsay McIntosh can keep on trotting out the line that nobody knows what Devo max means? In general, the electorate in Scotland clearly knows what Devo max means, which is that all powers bar foreign affairs, defence, and one or two taxes, should reside at Holyrood. If most of the voters have a good idea what it means, why and how can MSM journalists, whose job it is to know these things, keep dodging the issue? Are you really professional journalists, or are you Westminster stooges and hired hands?

  17. I’m reminded of a cartoon that appeared (many, many moons ago) in the Scots Independent. A wee boy is asking his dad what the difference is between evolution and devolution. The dad answers: evolution takes longer.

    Slightly dated, but now edging closer to fact.

    What will the tally be when the cost of Scottish cringe, added to Westminster deviance, is calculated by a future independent Scotland?

  18. Grizzle McPuss says:

    …mind you, if this is the general feeling within the populace at large, I can foresee ‘pitchforks & blazing torches’ should the inevitable Smith Commission output be the damp squib we are predicting.

    …otherwise, GE2015 wipe-out is on the cards for any politician and/or party that doesn’t take on board what the public sentiment actually is.

  19. Doug Daniel says:

    “with Yes voters exactly mirroring the SNP score of 84% for and just 8% against. Which raises a whole slew of questions that we’re not going to get into here.”

    That’ll be “Independence or nothing” types, perhaps.

    Dubai_Scot – no, the SNP getting a majority of Scottish MPs just means they have a chance of being the kingmakers in Westminster and extracting the maximum concessions possible. There are no shortcuts to independence – it’ll happen when we get another referendum.

  20. Papadox says:

    I totally agree with ENGLISH votes for English laws.

    Scottish votes for Scottish laws. The HOL should have no power to hold up or remove Scottish laws.

    Scottish Parliament should negotiate and pay for any joint ventures with rUK (defence, foreign policy). However I would prefer total independence.

  21. Morag says:

    I’m reminded of a cartoon that appeared (many, many moons ago) in the Scots Independent. A wee boy is asking his dad what the difference is between evolution and devolution. The dad answers: evolution takes longer.

    No, I remember the cartoon. It was DEVOLUTION that was said to take longer. (I’ll be here all week.)

  22. Mealer says:

    The Scottish Government may need to hold a consultative referendum on devo max.A short period of campaign,say six weeks,would be plenty time for voters to make up their minds so soon after the independence referendum.

  23. msean says:

    With some of these answers I worry that some people didn’t actually listen during the Indyref campaign,they could have had all of these things and more.

    Wait now and see what you don’t get from the unelected lord smith commission and compare it to what you could have won.

  24. Moray, yeah sorry, too busy minding my commas and not watching the content. Thanks!

  25. muttley79 says:

    @Juteman

    I think the referendum came a wee while ahead of schedule. I think what the electorate here are saying is they want a very powerful Scottish Parliament, stopping a little back from full independence. No voters appear to want a strong parliament at Holyrood, or at least a sizable element do. Of course, SLAB in particular do not want anything as powerful as Devo max. However, the opinion polls on the party political front since the referendum, and these ones on the constitutional front, appear to be saying that they really are going against the will of the voters. In other words, Labour are fucked.

  26. crisiscult says:

    Great questions, and great results; great in the sense that we know what banner we can unite under to wipe out the parties that are against Scotland (i.e against the wishes of the vast majority of Scots). With the right marketing, Yes groups can mobilse an anti ConDemLab turnout in May by arguing that SNP (or other yes supporting party that has a chance of winning in a constituency) will be pushing for real DevoMax. Assuming it hasn’t been delivered by then already (haha).

  27. Bill Halliday says:

    How much would it cost to run an ad page in the Record etc with those Questions and results?
    People would be delighted to back something like that.
    It would be interesting to see how they would avoid commenting on something their readers would be seeing anyway.

  28. Alex Clark says:

    The most interesting response for me was in answer to the question:

    The Scottish Parliament should control ALL revenues raised in Scotland, including North Sea oil, and then pay a lump sum to Westminster for shared UK services

    A figure of 62% agreeing isn’t bad, though I wish it was more.

    Surely Scotland should be responsible for how it raises and spends it’s taxes. If we do share defence and foreign affairs then of course we pay for them from taxes raised or if necessary borrowing in the markets.

    We should be responsible for our own debt raised on our behalf for money that is spent in Scotland, not responsible for debt raised in the UK for pie in the sky projects like HS2 and the Millennium Dome that Scots will never see any benefit from.

    This “contribution” from Scotland on UK projects is the most unjust and ridiculous tax among many that is levied on Scotland and must be scrapped.

    Scottish revenue must be spent on Scottish projects. Our Choice.

  29. One_Scot says:

    Maybe the next referendum question should be,

    “Should Scotland be Independent from Westminster”

  30. msean says:

    Would have been interesting to see if folk supported the idea of Holyrood being given the power to issue broadcast licences,because while that power resides in another country,that countrys’ interests will prevail over our own.

  31. Luigi says:

    It’s almost as if, on the 18th September, a significant number of soft NO voters decided to give the union one last chance to come up with the goods. No-one with two brain cells really believed the Vow, but perhaps the stakes were so high that there was some weird psychological need to give them just one last chance.

  32. James says:

    People want devo max and sterling/currency union. The responses here are totally consistent with that wish. They don’t want independence with the uncertainty and loss of Scottish financial sector jobs that that would entail.

    If we think the results of this poll show that the result of the vote on 18 September can be swiftly reversed then we are deluding ourselves.

  33. handclapping says:

    If Northern Ireland, 1.7 million people, can have its own social security scheme and deal with
    Attendance Allowance
    Additional State Pension
    Bereavement Allowance
    Bereavement Payment
    Budgeting Loan
    Carer’s Allowance
    Carer’s Credit
    Child Benefit
    Child Maintenance
    Child Tax Credits
    Christmas Bonus
    Cold Weather Payment
    Community Care Grant
    Compensation for victims of crime
    Constant Attendance Allowance
    Crisis Loans
    Disability Living Allowance
    Employment and Support Allowance
    Funeral Payment
    Guardians Allowance
    Help with health costs
    Home Responsibilities Protection – now Carer’s Credit
    Housing Benefit
    Housing Benefit Extended Payment
    Incapacity Benefit
    Income Support
    Independent Living Fund
    Industrial Death Benefit
    Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit (accidents)
    Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit (diseases and deafness)
    Jobseeker’s Allowance
    Maternity Allowance
    Motability
    Over 80 Pension
    National Insurance Number (applying for)
    Pension Credit
    Pneumoconiosis, byssinosis & misc. disease scheme benefits
    Reduced Earnings Allowance
    Redundancy Pay
    Retirement Allowance
    Severe Disablement Allowance
    Second State Pension
    State Pension
    Statutory Adoption Pay
    Statutory Maternity Pay
    Statutory Paternity Pay
    Statutory Sick Pay
    Sure Start Maternity Grant
    Tax Credits
    Travelling Expenses
    Vaccine damage
    War Disablement Pension
    War Widow or Widower’s Pension
    Widowed Parent’s Allowance
    Winter Fuel Payment
    Working Tax Credit
    Workmen’s Compensation (Supplementation) Scheme

    why can’t they be devolved to Scotland?

  34. jim arnott says:

    My wife is totally apolitical. Posed the above questions to her and she agreed with the majority view in all of these questions except the last one where she was a Don’t Know.

    In fact not only did she go with the majority she was way ahead of the majority opinion.

    I wasn’t surprised by her answers just totally gobsmaked by how far ahead she was of the majority. I can’t emphasise enough just how apolitical she is.

  35. No no no...Yes says:

    The Rev says, “UK government ministers often refuse to come to Holyrood and answer to its committees..”

    It will not come as a surprise to anyone that they are just following the Prime Minister’s lead. May I draw readers attention to the Scottish Tory manifesto of 2010:

    http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/General-Election-2010.pdf

    I will save readers the bother to trawl through it. On page 79 CAMERON made a PLEDGE

    “David Cameron has pledged to come to
    Scotland during his first week in office to meet
    the First Minister. He will also offer to meet
    annually with MSPs in Holyrood and respond
    to their questions about how the policies of the
    UK Government will affect devolved areas”

    I don’t remember him coming here in the first week, NOR meeting with annually with MSP’s.

    Liar,liar, we’ll hold your feet to the fire.

    I’ve saved a copy for future reference just in case they try and delete it….

  36. jimnarlene says:

    Gavin Alexander says:
    7 November, 2014 at 3:56 pm
    It was always going to be Devious Maximus…

    Totally agree.

  37. muttley79 says:

    @Mealer

    I suspect the SNP are going to see how the generel election goes next year, in terms of seats won, and the aftermath. If they become kingmakers, then the UK government would have to make considerable concessions, as Doug has said above. Talk of a Devo max referendum is probably premature, but who knows what the next few years have in store.

  38. Pin says:

    Really enjoyed this article. Cheers

  39. Jim Arnott says:

    O/T testing

  40. Lollysmum says:

    Morag
    “When will we see this lot reported in the MSM, I wonder?”

    Not until Stu converts the sentences into pie charts because as you know MSM struggles with finding the correct meaning of words. Well they must do because they really do seem to get a hell of a lot wrong. Pictures say so much more so that even our esteeemed (NOT) MSM can understand them 🙂

  41. Stoker says:

    Devo Smax? Devo Snax? Devo Tax?

    Ach, P!SH.

    I think this song says more about my stance than i ever could.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjEMHtSCU9M

    btw, good set of questions and revelations Stu.
    😉

  42. liz says:

    I still think we have a real case to push the Smith Commission if they don’t come up with the goods.

    The SNP included a Panelbase poll on ‘What Scotland Thinks’ along with their submission, which showed similar to the above.

    Horshall disappeared off twitter when his ‘no-one really knows what devo-max is’ was met with several folk posted the link to that poll.

    So Smith cant say that we don’t know what devo max is – we do.

    Also from what I’ve heard out of 11,000 submissions only a few hundred were against FFA so it looks as though most Proud Scots couldn’t be arsed backing up their views.

    I do know some wingers thought it was a waste of time,at least you had a viewpoint.

  43. muttley79 says:

    @Luigi

    Yes, it looks like the referendum verdict was there is only one last chance for the British state to deliver Devo max to Scotland.

  44. Niall says:

    Re defence and foreign affairs, a common reason for voting no I heard was that there’s no going back. I think they are enough of a security blanket to get these people over the hump.

  45. Proud Cybernat says:

    Can’t wait until you get to this question:

    “Do you agree that Broadcasting should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament?”

  46. Pentland Firth says:

    Scots are ready for Full Fiscal Autonomy, but not yet for full independence. Some folk were concerned that if we went for independence we would be ejected from the European Union, left defenceless outside NATO, and refused a currency union with rUK. All the arguments (and humour) deployed to reassure them had, I fear, little or no success, and they voted No. But, and it’s a big but (no sniggering at the back, please), none of those fears apply to Devo Max.

    We seem likely to heading towards a hung parliament in Westminster next May, and, if the SNP campaign on a pledge of (a) opposing further austerity measures and (b) advocating both full fiscal autonomy for Scotland and “English votes for English laws”, they may end up holding the balance of power and thus wield immense influence. It’s not what I wanted (and still hope for), but it’s the best that can realistically be aimed at in the near future. It would also be a huge step forward.

  47. Clootie says:

    I expect we will be given the power to raise a tax on party political membership and to fly the Saltire on the 29th February.

  48. Proud Cybernat says:

    As you have oft stated in the past, Stu–Scots want independence. Just don’t call it ‘independence’.

  49. think again says:

    These results are of course the reason DEVO MAX was not the third option on the ballot paper. Had it been so I think 30% would have voted Yes, solid SNP support levels. 60% would have said yes please we want lots more power because we are doing well with the bits we have already. And 10%, the ersit, would have said No, look what`s happened already, those damned separatists have gained power.

    It was a cunning stunt to have a straight Yes / No choice but of course the unionist parties got it wrong and they know it now and they will know it better come May.

  50. GrahamB says:

    No chance of anything near FFA or even a modest version of Devo Max/Medium/Min. On today’s radio debate I heard the not unexpected ‘compromise’ word used for the outcome of the Smith Commission. Compromise = Lowest Common Denominator!

  51. davidb says:

    Conservative opposition to FFA is easy to understand. And indeed is consistent with most of them voting No. They don’t want to pick up the bill in the form of higher taxation which the majority of Yes backers imply would be required.

    I think having control of our own affairs is not such a bogey man. Our economy and society can be better and wealthier away from wastemonster. But that is quite a leap of faith when all you hear is about is how we will spend the dosh, not how we’ll raise it.

    Devo max is indeed a great risk to the establishment, if the result is competent government, spending efficiently and wisely, and delivering more without more and higher redistributive taxation.

    I know Conservative voters have gained from Business Rates Relief, council tax friezes, free buses/eye tests and prescriptions. But there is a propaganda smear that we are spending English taxpayers money. If we can get FFA and run our country better without paying more taxes here you will win those Conservatives in droves at the next and final referendum when we win.

  52. Christian Schmidt says:

    Good questions!

    And interesting answers – because we know what it is going to happen: The Smith Commission will come up with some answer which the Tories, Lib Dem and Labour will claim is exactly what they promisied and exactly what devo-max means. The SNP (and Greens) will claim it is a scam.

    As a regular cynic I would expect the results of the Smith Commission to be a scam too, but what matters is what Scottish voters think. And here the previous answers (what do you want to be devolved) were interesting because they sort of set out the playing field, and your answers are interesting because they set out the strength of the relevant players (who do trust? who do you want to decide?).

  53. BornOptimist says:

    There was a suggestion in one post about placing the poll results in a one page ad in the MSM. It’s a good idea but info like this would have much more impact if served up nearer the GE than it would now – people have very short memories for data. So, Stuart, get some more crowd funding for either another poll or a summary of recent and future polls to blitz the MSM in mid to late April.

  54. Taranaich says:

    No voters as a whole backed FFA, or “true” devo-max, by 45% to 38%, with Yes voters exactly mirroring the SNP score of 84% for and just 8% against. Which raises a whole slew of questions that we’re not going to get into here.

    At a guess, it’s either “independence or nothing” people, or those who think FFA would result in Westminster just taking even more money from Scotland than they already do for defense & “national expenditure” – something I certainly wouldn’t put past them.

    We’ll leave you to assess that one for yourselves.

    Given how many people proclaimed that this referendum was done “entirely” on the Scottish Government’s terms (evidently forgetting that there were a few signatures on the Edinburgh Agreement, not to mention so much being under the complete control of WM like broadcasting), I think a lot of people were under the misapprehension that the Scottish Parliament HAD the legal authority to hold the referendum without the UK’s permission.

    @Juteman: As has often been said, independence is the favoured choice, as long as it isn’t called independence.

    Evidence mounts and mounts. Whole lot of talk about “home rule” and “federalism” and “devo max” for over a century, not much progress until the 1990s.

    @TD: What this amounts to is a strong statement that the Scottish people are effectively in favour of independence with the exceptions of foreign affairs and defence. But to me it is strange that people want to trust the UK with these two important matters.

    I can only hope that in the event we do get Devomax, far from being contented with it, the people of Scotland will realise just what a fraud it is for Scotland to raise so much on foreign affairs and defense without having any say on what that money is spent on, and independence would be a mere formality afterwards. Which, I think, is another big reason Devomax isn’t on the table.

    @msean: With some of these answers I worry that some people didn’t actually listen during the Indyref campaign,they could have had all of these things and more.

    Or they were told it was a pack of SNP lies. After all, that’s what the BBC and the papers kept telling them.

    @Muttley79: However, the opinion polls on the party political front since the referendum, and these ones on the constitutional front, appear to be saying that they really are going against the will of the voters.

    That’s why the 2010 Scotland Act votes are so important: it wasn’t just during the referendum campaign that New Labour were voting against further devolution.

    @Proud Cybernat: “Do you agree that Broadcasting should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament?”

    From what I’ve seen, this has the tightest result for some reason. Maybe people were afraid they’d stop getting the BBC if broadcasting was devolved (because it isn’t as if the BBC is broadcast WORLDWIDE or anything…) Given the undoubted power of the BBC during the campaign, it could indicate that a large proportion of the populace – or at least No voters – still have some amount of trust in the BBC.

  55. X_Sticks says:

    Sorry, always O/T ;}

    Live Indy broadcasting live video on Florenci Ferrusola on imminent Catalan developments ON NOW

    http://tinyurl.com/pgxmo8rThis

  56. Tam Jardine says:

    Doug Daniel

    with Yes voters exactly mirroring the SNP score of 84% for and just 8% against. Which raises a whole slew of questions that we’re not going to get into here.”That’ll be “Independence or nothing” types, perhaps.

    This may seem strange but doesn’t surprise me. I voted against devolution on the same (now unbelievable) basis, albeit in my youth. And just as I regretted that decision to the extent of actually blocking it out, I think a lot of no voters in the indyref will block their decision out.

    Ultimately whether you voted yes or no, you want to live in a state that works and the current arrangement (and devo-max in my view) are untenable longterm.

    I see now that the public want a more gradualism approach but not THAT gradual. Devo-max may be a necessary three quarter way house (after the halfway house of devolution) even though it doesn’t make any sense to most of us.

  57. crazycat says:

    @ BornOptimist

    Another advantage of your suggestion is that, by April, some of the current MSM may have fallen by the wayside, so it would also be cheaper. (I may also be being optimistic here, which in my case is not an inborn condition!)

  58. manandboy says:

    Just love your work, Stu.

    So many insightful comments. Wings on fire.

    Standing on the shoulders of Wings, my view is that Independence will happen when Westminster sees that we have become an independent kind of people – with a determination as individuals to have self-determination as a nation.

    In other words when we have created a culture of independence. (Not easy for those many elderly who receive care and who are all too aware that they are dependent on others).

    The poll results show we are well on the way.

    It still won’t be easy, nor will WM accept Indy graciously. Indy will rock England to its foundations and elsewhere too, but with support for a dependence culture fast diminishing and self confidence increasing, perhaps Scotland’s coming of age will at last be upon us.

    We are Scots and we weren’t born to wear another man’s harness.

  59. Chic McGregor says:

    The Devo is in the detail.

  60. Lollysmum says:

    @ X sticks O/T

    Link doesn’t work

  61. Grouse Beater says:

    Excellent questions, telling answers. Good work

  62. Balaaargh says:

    OT

    Huffington Post: “The SNP Have Done More for Scotland in Seven Years Than Labour Have Done in Seventy”

    https://archive.today/fsczo

  63. ben madigan says:

    @ hadclapping at 4.46 pm who listed devolved powers to NI.

    I haven’t read all the comments – perhaps someone else has already replied to this point.

    Anyway, please remember that devolved government in NI is part of the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement and subsequent agreements that involved the UK, USA and Republic of Ireland.

    They were designed to end 40 odd years of violent strife and NI is considered a “special case” for many reasons.

    For example, the World Mental Health Survey Initiative found high rates of mental disorders and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Northern Ireland due to long term exposure to crisis conditions.

    http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/03/30/time-for-suicide-the-legacy-of-the-troubles/

    That situation has never occurred (and hopefully never will develop or occur) in Scotland and Wales.

    So while Scotland may wish/aspire to have all these powers I cannot see that a comparison with NI will help further these objectives.

  64. Kenny says:

    Westminster has a problem. The population of Scotland is clued up and involved in politics. This is not England where there is apathy or where they can create bogeymen in the form of the “EU Commission” or “immigration”.

    What I love about Devo is that if they give too little, that will increase the percentages polling for full independence (currently hovering around the very low 50s). If they give the full Devo max that Scotland clearly wants it means (1) less robbing of Scottish wealth for vanity SE projects (2) is a further step down the road to independence. Hence, all roads lead to independence.

    Likewise, the indy ref campaign was either a “means” or an “end”. It could have been an end in itself and given us indy. It did not. But it was also a means in that it allowed us to campaign, awaken the country, address all the issues. It helped us jump from around 30% to 45% — and now move on a little bit higher…

    The movement towards independence is a process. What happened on 18 September was like someone taking a photograph. It was one static moment (skewed by Project Fear, but still a snapshot of 18.10.14). But life is like a video, not a frozen photograph. So it will be interesting to see what the picture is, say, on 18 September 2015 or 2106…

    — I wonder if a policy wonk in WM has come up with the bright idea: oh just give em full devolution… it will kill nationalism stone dead!

    — Stu, we will be more than happy to crowdfund more such opinion polls. It will be very interesting to hold such a poll both before the Smith Commission releases its findings and afterwards. We all know the SC will pretend Scotland wants no Devo — except some vague promise of powers after May 2015…

  65. kininvie says:

    Evidently, where we are at is that Scotland chose to remain within the UK, but wishes to do so on its own terms. Westminster will see it as Scotland chosing to remain within the UK, and doing so on Westminster’s terms. That is the battle that will be fought out over the next three years.

    Being a unionist MP or MSP in Scotland will become extremely uncomfortable. It is one thing for politicians to resist the will of the people over such things as bringing back hanging, but to resist the will of the people over demands for greater democracy and accountability is quite another. There’s plenty of recent history to show where that leads in the long term.

    As an aside – the puzzlement over why people voted No but want more powers is, I think relatively easily explained. There’s a large number of people – maybe still the majority – who actually like being part of the United Kingdom and so voted against independence. But so long as ‘breaking up the UK’ is not on the cards, they are happy to have as much power as possible. I believe that if there were a way to be both independent and simultaneously part of the UK, voters would be happy to go with that. I’d like to see a lot of work done on the idea of a confederation before the next referendum.

    At the moment, of course, that would be a non-starter in Westminster. But the pressure for devo-max and EVEL won’t go away – and with Wales now getting stroppy about Brexit, it may eventually come to be seen as the only stable solution to the constitutional problem.

  66. Nana Smith says:

    _sorry for O/T but thought you might like to hear the latest from James & Jack

    New Broadcast News Service for Scotland

    This week we can finally tell you a little bit more…
    We have finished our filming for the next part of the project, a short video which will be launched, at the same time as our new website, on Monday at 11am!
    We’re busy getting everything in line for the launch of the website and will be in the office all weekend trying to get the word out.
    We couldn’t have gotten to this stage without all of you, so it’s only fair we let you know what’s happening before everyone else, so here’s what we’ll be telling the press over the next few days.
    Scottish News will7 provide a 30-minute online news bulletin every day.
    Details of the project are laid out in a video to be posted at 11am on Monday 10th November 2014 at: http://www.scottishnews.scot
    Called the Scottish Evening News, the bulletin will be unique in providing well-resourced, high-quality video coverage of international, UK and Scottish stories from a Scottish viewpoint. It will focus on reporting facts, not making comment. It will bring the perspective of the people to Scotland to bear on the main events of day, wherever they happen.
    Scottish News is a social enterprise, funded by individual donations. The bulletin will be free from the influence of shareholders, politicians and advertisers.
    The team will be hiring full time journalists, correspondents, production and technical staff. And the show will be the flagship component of a national news package focused around a comprehensive up-to-the-minute website, including supplementary video news, accompanying resources, and extended analysis of the day’s stories.
    While the bulletin will broadcast daily in spring 2015, the team plan to move it to a digital TV channel by 2018, at which time it will expand to provide 24 hour broadcasting.

    Currently, as you know the team consists of Jack, James and Carolyn, and we are very happy to announce that we have been working with Stewart Kirkpatrick who has come on board as a consultant, and brought with him a wealth of knowledge and experience.
    We apologies that this email wasn’t with you earlier this morning, we’ve been trying to keep to a set time for our weekly updates! We’re still going to be keeping you all updated week to week, but we’ll also be launching our social media pages on Monday along with our website where you can keep up with what’s going on.
    We’ll send you all an email on Monday to let you know where you can find us on Facebook & Twitter and to let you see our new website!
    Thank you for your continued support.
    Yours, the Scottish News Team.

  67. @Dubai_Scot
    The Catalans in Spain on Sunday 9th November 2014 are having there own plebiscite/referendum on the question of there own Independence from Spain , this is outwith the wishes of the Spanish government .
    My good wishes go with the Catalan people and pray everything goes peacefully.

  68. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Stoker

    Devo sux

  69. ben madigan says:

    @think again at 5.12 who talked about why devo max was not on the ballot paper

    my understanding was (but i don’t have a reference to hand) was that the law lords decided. They used the metaphor of a club
    If a member decided to leave a club (Independence) it was his decision
    If a member decided to change the rules of the club (Devo max) then all members had the right to be consulted which would be very complicated, lengthy and costly.
    Hence the decision to go for a straight Yes/no in the referendum as the simpler alternative.
    The irony is of course since the referendum everyone is discussing devo max and diverse parts of the UK want devolved powers.

  70. A.N.Surgent says:

    OT/ Once again mps show their priorities, compare pictures.

    http://rt.com/uk/203231-mps-living-wage-sawant/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

    Was never a fan of minimum wage, businesses were able to pay the least amount possible legally and destroy the aspirations of, millions.Was more in favour of a maximum wage, rewarding people who undertook vital services for the benefit of the people, nurses,doctors,firemen and women etc.

  71. manandboy says:

    Leaving aside the history of lying,stealing and contempt,
    after the way WM has treated us these past few years,
    who in their right mind would want to stay in this union.

    If this were a marriage we would already be long divorced. You can only live with an absolute bastard for so long.

  72. schrodingers cat says:

    devo max
    whose definition?

    the parties can stick that on their manifestos and we will vote on it. if the snp win big in may, they will have a democratic mandate to put forward their definition, ie everything but defence and foreign affairs.
    the SC will still only be a proposal in may,(a carrot) it still needs to go through west minster, it will be butchered in the lords.

    If the SNP win big the SC will be over taken by events if the snp hold the Balance of power.

    ncola is already eyeing up the remaining powers with the EU referendum bid.

  73. Yesemite Sam says:

    On the basis that you should never ask a question you don’t know the likely answer to then I think the Rev’ has played a blinder. The responses given were exactly what one would expect given the rather leading nature of many of the questions asked.

    Take Q1 for example. Respondents were asked to agree or disagree with a positive assertion. Is it any wonder a large majority agreed to such a positive ideal? Had the question been asked in a more neutral way such as “The leader of any party represented in the Scottish Parliament should be:-

    1. an MSP
    2. an MP.
    3. Either an MSP or and MP

    I suspect the answer may have been different. The same goes with many of the other questions too, I afraid.

  74. Stoker says:

    GrahamB says:
    7 November, 2014 at 5:14 pm
    “On today’s radio debate I heard the not unexpected ‘compromise’ word used for the outcome of the Smith Commission. Compromise = Lowest Common Denominator!”

    Graham,
    Wee Boabie Smith, himself, was already using the word in his interviews prior to the Commission getting under way.

    Its all or nothing for me – always has been, always will be.
    😉

  75. schrodingers cat says:

    @ben
    why devo max was not on the ballot paper?

    I have never believed the figures for the GDP of scotland based on the stats by the ONS

    it wasnt on the ballot paper because westminster cant afford to lose scotland, if this is correct, then if we win FFA, we will know PDQ what the real state of affairs is, not stats but the bottom line on swinney’s bank balance.

    if this is a true senario, then support for independence will rocket as we can prove that westminster are liars

  76. manandboy says:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lords-back-assisted-dying-providing-judge-gives-final-ruling-9847705.html

    O/T Privatised dying. Surprised? Nothing is sacred to the Unionist neo-Liberals. Within 5 years, if not before, the safeguards will all fall away due to cost.

    Then, for reasons of national whatever and with the NHS already privatised, euthanasia on demand will be out to tender as 90% death duties are introduced for everyone.

  77. Stoker says:

    Good news, Nana, @ 6.01pm.

    Another very useful weapon in our armoury.

    Strange how things happen, isn’t it, several times today i had
    been wondering about the rumoured media project(s) that were
    supposedly under planning and then you pop up with that news.

    I’ve already bookmarked their site and signed up for newsletters.
    scottishnews.scot/

    Cheers, Nana.
    🙂

  78. Kenny says:

    O/T I am one of those negative people who just refuse to see the SNP ever taking East Renfrewshire — at least not in May 2015. But wouldn’t it be funny if the map of Scotland did indeed turn SNP, with only the odd isolated Labour seat…. which Murphy would then have to RESIGN in order to assume his role as branch manager in Holyrood.

    And what if he were to not get into Holyrood — and the SNP were then to take East Renfrewshire in the ensuing bye-election to boot?!?

  79. Robert Peffers says:

    As long as Westminster remains the, unelected as such, de facto parliament of England then devolution will remain a scam of gigantic proportions. It will remain as a parliament of England devolving English power to three subservient countries under English rule. The membership figures speak for themselves : – 533 from English constituencies provides an overall English majority of 117 over the total of the 416 members from non-English constituencies. That non-English total is composed of 59 from Scottish, 40 from Welsh and 18 from N.I. constituencies.

    It simply boils down to 533 English members, elected as UK parliamentarians, also being the unelected parliamentarians of the de facto parliament of England. No Scot, Welsh or N. Irish person should countenance being treated as a second class United Kingdom citizen. This will always remain the case as long as the non-elected parliament of England at Westminster legislates for England as the UK, finances England directly as the UK while also deciding what powers and funding the UK allows the rest of us to have.

    If the UK is to remain united there is no other option than to remove the de facto parliament of England from the actual parliament of the United Kingdom.

  80. Chitterinlicht says:

    Feel
    Strangely
    Happy
    Peace to all

  81. Stoker says:

    I’ll try it this way – see if it works.
    https://archive.today/FEwyE

  82. John D aka Nkosi says:

    I am not tired, the fight it is just beginning in earnest. FFA at a minimum, or Independence.

  83. Paula Rose says:

    Thank you Rev – I am never fulsome with my praise but this post is one of your best – the questions asked and the defining of devo-max are areas I wanted clarification on xx

  84. galamcennalath says:

    Every figure in this section of the poll shows that the Scottish people’s attitudes, perceptions and aspirations might as well come from different planet compared with the London view. That’s not universal, but strong majority views diverge hugely from official Unionist policy towards Scotland.

    Only one thing has to happen – a large chunk of No voters need to accept that London will not deliver significant devolution. There is only one way forward.

  85. Bobby says:

    anyone have a link to the Nicola sturgeon meeting in Dundee tonite

  86. yesindyref2 says:

    Great poll!

    Just to take the headline: “The meaning of devo-max”, that’s now very simple. None of the 3 Unionist parties took the time to define it, so it’s exactly what the SNP and Greens have defined it as, because since they’re not in Smith to demand Independence and accept the result of the referendum for the time being, their definition is the one that counts. QED. Or at least, that’s what we tell the rest of them.

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    Eh, re-reading my post it didn’t come across very well. The Rev has defined devo-max in his poll, and it got 62%, eliminating DKs = 72%.

  88. handclapping says:

    @ben madigan
    Thanks for the reply. In response I would just say that the Unionists in Calman refused point blank to consider devolving any part of social security on the basis that it was an essentiall underpinning of what it means to be British.

    Except in Northern Ireland; Does this mean that Westminster doesn’t consider those in Northern Ireland to be British? Are they not family? When Cameron talks of this country is Northern Ireland excuded because a ferry journey is needed?

    And the converse is that not allowing Scots any say in their nation’s social security system is just thumbing the nose at those uppity Jocks.

    To develop the theme further IMO the Smith Commission is a farce unless it proposes devolution of social security lock, stock and barrel. It is substantial. It is measurable and costable and can be added simply to the Barnett formula if there is no agreement on taxes.

    Social security is the very minimum that we should accept from Smith under the guise of “substantial new powers”

  89. heedtracker says:

    The hardest thing to accept in all of this is Westminster refusing the devo max option on 18th Sept. This is what imperial masters do do but it’s still horrific to watch in action and now we have to endure whatever devo nothing Lord Smith cooks up. Then to cap it all, our imperial masters will kick it all in to touch in parliament after endless excruciating debates between blue Tory Britnats and their proud Scot but cringers, Hood, Davidson and co. Dark days ahead. Thanks again proud Scots buts.

  90. Robert Roddick says:

    Thanks again Rev. You really must keep going and getting the truth out.

  91. X_Sticks says:

    Sorry Lollysmum

    I just chucked the post up and had to go out, but I see cynicalHighlander hopefully sorted you out http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-meaning-of-devo-max/comment-page-1/#comment-1921904 😀

  92. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 7 November, 2014 at 7:16 pm:

    “Every figure in this section of the poll shows that the Scottish people’s attitudes, perceptions and aspirations might as well come from different planet compared with the London view.”

    The London View, or even the England view, does not ever consider the view of anyone else. To them nothing outside their isolationist closed circle matters a jot. It infuses their entire being. Take tonight for example – I came in a wee while ago from my pal’s house. He had said, “Ye’ll bi goin tae stay fir the fitba, Bob”? I said, “I didna ken the Motherwell vs Dundee United game wis oan”. He says, “Naw! It’s no. It’s the Warrington vs Exeter game frae the furst roond Inglis Cup whit’s oan”. I said, “Naw! I’m awa hame tae git oan WoS or somethin else oan the computer. It’s no as if it is ony kind o vital game. Onywey, it’s foreign fitba.

    So there it is, BBC Scotland showing a English a minor cup game on BBC Scotland when there’s a Scottish Premiership game on. Why do we Scots put up with this farce? The answer is because we have far to many subservient Scots who bow down to their English masters. Hell mend them for they are getting exactly what they voted for. Pay your licence fee like good little Jocks so as to help finance the English to watch English football. Good Grief – I wonder how many Scottish football fans are sitting watching this game tonight who would be hard put to it to pinpoint either Warrington or Exeter on the map?

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    Curtice covered the previous results from the poll, quite well for a change, mentioning Wings.

  94. Macart says:

    Soooo apparently we’re in favour of having lots of control but, just not independence.

    Wait whut?

    Still at least those polled seem pretty clear on what devo max means, even if its unlikely they’ll ever get to see it. Mind you if you don’t ask you don’t get, so the priority has to be sending down those parties who’ll actually put pressure on WM to move toward it. Clearly none of the unionist parties agree with their own electorate and clearly they are terrified of even asking them the questions.

    How do you manage that? Y’know expect people to vote for you without asking their opinion on anything?

  95. onelessday says:

    Sitting here in tears listening to Dougie singing Caledonia

    on Alba Oh what might have been

  96. paul gerard mccormack says:

    I remember seeing Devo at the Apollo in Renfield street. They weren’t bad, but not as good as the real thing.

  97. Graeme Doig says:

    Nana

    Thanks for that update on the broadcasting service. Very encouraging.

  98. Lesley-Anne says:

    Apologies for O/T here but thought anyone who could not make it to the Caird Hall in Dundee might like to see how it turned out. 😉

    https://twitter.com/jimsrob/status/530811972963807232/photo/1

  99. A.N.Surgent says:

    Robert Peffers

    Was it not crash broon,that ensured that F.A. cup games(esp. the latter stages) and england international games be shown on terrestrial tv,and not ensuring the same for the Scottish Cup and Scotland internationals.

  100. heedtracker says:

    @ Robert Peffers, sport and war Bob, that’s what they think saves the union. Olympic Games 2012 London rammed down our throats till 2014, WW1 celebrations, endless maudlin BBC coverage, Royals, Tory boys laying wreaths etc. Press and Journal Aberdeen had full page thing on 100 year WW1 anniversary things had bound the UK even tighter together as one nation. If you disagree/object/query it all, you’re a ("Tractor" - Ed)

  101. Natasha says:

    Slightly off topic, I know, but here goes:

    I know there are some people who think we can be a bit negative and intolerant on Wings, but try looking at the comments on Craig Murray and Scot goes Pop! There are some seriously nasty pieces of work posting on those threads. At least here people are generally helpful and informative,ready to listen to each other and to apologise or make amends if they’ve got something wrong or misunderstood something (barring the odd troll, no prizes for guessing who I mean . . . ).

    Plus there’s much more humour and banter on here. I really like both James Kelly and Craig Murray, but I’m going to stay away from their comments sections in future. Too depressing.

  102. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    At the 2016 Scottish Election it would be entirely proper for the SNP/YES to campaign on the proposal that the Scottish Parliament assumes full sovereign powers.

    I cannot stress it too much. We do not have to have permission from anybody else to decide how we should be governed. Nobody does.
    That’s democracy and the United Nations Charter.

    Personally I think we should be making a strong case for a British Confederation ie independent nations in the British Isles cooperating freely in areas of mutual interest- much like the collection of nations and communities of varying sizes which make up the Nordic Union. That would knock “separation” on the head

  103. Macart says:

    @Lesley-Anne

    WOW! 😮

  104. Stoker says:

    Bob,
    Just checked the TV listings.

    Aye, yer right, that obscure English shite is on BBC2 Scotland.
    The key factor here is to remember that “BBC Scotland” does not
    truly exist – FACT.

    The Motherwell v Dundee Utd game is on one of the subscription channels – not the Beeb – but another Brit outfit i shall not name.
    😉

  105. caledonia says:

    re broadcasting being devolved its not just because of the blatant bias and lies its other things as well.

    like sport ie we are bombarded with what is mainly an English pastime – cricket sometimes as a main story yet you have to go searching for a Scottish semi-final result

    sportscene was taken of air on a Saturday night with the BBC saying it was not the right time to show football and shunted to a Sunday night when most kids are in bed

    But they decided to show English football on a Saturday night
    Its no wonder kids today are all walking around with Man U tops etc

    Britians got talent -if you come from England as last year they decided to give Scotland a body swerve

    highlights of goals on the news again if you come from England but you might get one goal from scotland

    this is beginning to sound like something anti English but its not its just the way the TV companies take the piss with Scottish viewers

    Is there any other country that accepts wall to wall football from another country before showing its own football

    England friendly games on the telly but Scotland playing the world champs not on terrestrial TV anywhere

  106. A.N.Surgent says:

    Lockheed a major arms contractor sponsors remembrance ball, something seriously wrong when a company whose speciality is killing people sponsors an event to remember people killed in war.

    http://rt.com/uk/203311-uk-royal-legion-lockheed/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

  107. heedtracker says:

    I also watched Alex Salmond last week explain how Crash Gordon, various other red Tories, blue Tories etc promise devo max and federal UK just before the 18th and to not do this would cause a constitutional crisis. But what does that mean? It looks like they’re going to do that 79 trick and let time wash it all away for teamGB which is fair enough. BBC sell devo nothing, GB rules the waves and there’s nothing to be done for another 40 years. Unless that constituonal crisis does actually mean something. Maybe that histroic fraudster at the Daily Record could tell us.

  108. Johnny says:

    Natasha @ 8:38pm

    Scot Goes Pop does have some trolls, but I find them less ‘off-the-wall’ than some people on the comments section of Craig Murray’s page seem to be. Some very odd stuff spewing forth there. I do read all three, and derive the most entertainment/information from here and Scot Goes Pop.

  109. ben madigan says:

    @handclapping at 7.40

    I’ve copied parts of your post and will try to reply point by point to the issues we raised so we don’t lose track of ourselves trying to discuss a complicated situation.

    ” Does this mean that Westminster doesn’t consider those in Northern Ireland to be British? Are they not family? When Cameron talks of this country is Northern Ireland excuded because a ferry journey is needed?”

    Opinions are divided on whether NI is 100% British, particularly considering the involvement of the USA and the republic of ireland as guarantors of the international agreements that I mentioned before. They set up complicated cross-border arrangements, bodies and co-operation schemes etc with the republic of ireland.

    As far as the local population is concerned, Unionists (48%) believe it is 100% British, Nationalists (46%) say it is irish. General feeling among the English is that NI is a waste of money but the UK government has to cope with the aftermath of past actions (including encouraging the Loyalists).

    Part of the Family: When the Government of ireland Act was signed in 1920 King george V was reportedly bemused as to why ireland wanted to leave the “family” but hoped the 2 parliaments (Belfast in Ni and Dublin in the republic) would make everybody happy. So I would say NI hasn’t been part of the “family” since then. Though I may be wrong!!

    Being British: People from NI have the right to both british and irish passports. they can choose whichever they want. In England anyone from NI is considered Irish by the English. Those who support the Union find this hard to take on board as it doesn’t fit with their view of themselves.

    I hope i’ve shown you better how NI is a “special case” even apart from the fact that it’s on another island. Think of it as “a problem child” of Empire!!
    http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/miss-gfa-northern-ireland-fails-driving-test/

    Devolving the social security system to Scotland:
    As you know personally speaking i have no problems with this as I fully support independence for scotland
    ” thumbing the nose at those uppity Jocks”
    I beg to disagree. i don’t think it’s a question of arrogance but everything will depend on the outcome of the smith commission, (which I know a lot of people are pessimistic about), and the upcoming elections.

    IMO there are too many variables at the moment to see far ahead and scotland is in a “wait and watch” period, while remaining alert, of course and planning for its own future e.g. that news station some posters mentioned earlier.

    It’s in Scotland’s best interests at present to make the best case possible with Lord Smith and get as many seats as possible in Westminster 2015. After that a clearer picture will emerge and people will know what to do and how to move forward.

  110. muttley79 says:

    @Natasha

    Sadly it comes from our own side as well. There is a horrible comment on Douglas Fraser’s Twitter.

  111. Sinky says:

    @ Stoker says:
    Using our licence fees, in a deal with BT Sport , the BBC agreed to pay around £16 million a year to screen 16 English FA cup ties which comes on top of £180 million to renew the Match Of The Day highlights programme plus £15 million a year to broadcast highlights of lower English league games and an undisclosed sum for 10 Live English Championship games a season as part of a £265 million deal which brings English second tier £88 million a year.

    Contrast this with their failure to even attempt to bid for live Scottish Premier League football thus reducing the sum, £12 million a year, Sky needed to bid to secure the rights.

    It doesn’t take a genius to work out that this is a terrible deal for Scottish football. The SPL is the 11th most-attended league in Europe, ahead of Switzerland, Austria and Norway, all of whom can command higher television revenue.

    Based on UK viewing figures for SPL matches we should earn at least 5% of the English total which would bring in £60 million a year. That would transform the game in Scotland.

    In Norway their domestic league football rights have been sold for £44 million a year. Why is Norway so much better off? They are independent. Vote YES

    Read more at
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/knowing-our-rights.18109410

    The winning bids – which, together, are estimated to be worth close to £50m a year, for four years – will give BT Sport exclusive rights to show 25 live matches annually, with the BBC gaining exclusive coverage of 16 games a year. Both broadcasters will air the FA Cup final live.

  112. tombee says:

    How on earth, giving the answers to these polling questions, did we lose this referendum?.
    Or am I completely off my trolly?.

  113. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @tombee –

    Hear hear to that.

    Still wake up sometimes, remember it all happening, and have that nano-second of wonderment – was it all just a dream?

    Sinky’s comment at 9.49 is yet another solid reason why DKs really have to wake the fuck up – they’re trapping the rest of us in a nightmare.

  114. Lesley-Anne says:
    7 November, 2014 at 8:33 pm
    Apologies for O/T here but thought anyone who could not make it to the Caird Hall in Dundee might like to see how it turned out.

    http://www.twitter.com/jimsrob/status/530811972963807232/photo/1

    =============================================

    Lesley-Anne – from where you took the photo from, you were sitting in the same two rows as me. I was at the end behind the two old boys, I was right next to the exit.

  115. velofello says:

    “Fundamentally pointless and impossible deliberations”. – with these few words, you make the point.

    First rate set of questions and analysis Rev Stu. Sincerely hope that you are fully motivated for the fight ahead with the Establishment. The referendum skirmish is behind us, the big one, on fundamentals is yet to come. Your questions and responses here map out the battleground well.

  116. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lesley-Anne/James Caithness –

    Astonishing image. It’s almost as busy as the last SSP Public Meeting we had in Stevenston.

  117. Rigmac7 says:

    Wee bit O/T so aplogies;

    Just arrived back in Scotland today (apologies, customs took the sun off me, I did try).

    Noticed the story on state TV website today about LIDL staff apparently only being allowed to speak in English (should have realised it wouldnt be long before someone sought out and grew a negative story for LIDL or Aldi in our oh so unbiased MSM). Got me to thinking about how so many people are simply ignoring Asda and Tesco’s and giving their business elsewhere.

    Wee idea to think about; instead of not going to Asda or Tesco at all, simply go there and only buy their sale items (buy one get one free, 2 for 1, 3 for 2 etc) and then buy the rest at Aldi’s/LIDL. This way will hurt them more as you are taking money from them by only buying their loss leader products. Will add a little to a shopping trip in terms of going to a couple of places and will require a wee bit of discipline to not buy anything other than the offers, but will make more of a point than simply not buying anything.

    Any thoughts or is my logic a wee bit fuzzy with jet lag? 🙂

  118. SquareHaggis says:

    Is it too late to submit these findigs to the Smith Commission?

    Surely this would bolster the case for what Scots actually think about the way forward. Excellent work.

  119. Marcia says:

    James,

    I am sorry I am in London and not at the Caird Hall tonight. I don’t think Lesley-Anne was at the meeting. Don’t think there are many buses that run from Dumfries to Dundee. 🙂

  120. Alex Clark says:

    @Natasha

    The points you made about Craig Murray and Scot Goes Pop blogs are one reason that I and many others will give anyone trying that here short shrift.

    I’ll admit mistakes can and will be made but in general Wings is self policing.

    Apologies to all those still here that I have offended 🙂

  121. One_Scot says:

    Is that the same Douglas Fraser that referred to online supporters of Independence as internet sewer rats.

  122. A.N.Surgent says:

    Totally OT/ just seen that famous Scots footballer beckham in an advert for haig whisky. Was that his pay off for telling us we are better together. Unfknbelievable.

  123. Sinky says:

    O/T Brian Wilson in fine form ignoring the English education policies backed by Labour

    https://archive.today/RDh3O

  124. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry James I wasn’t there the link was from someone called @pilaraymara on Twitter. 😉

    Here is some other great news folks.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/YesVoteScots/status/530716900729552896?#tweet_530716900729552896

    Now we all know what the Scottish Government will be doing with the £25 Million UNDERSPEND on the Commonwealth Games. I have two itsy bitsy yeeny weeny little questions.

    1) what would Scottish Labour do? Ach what am I talking about we all know what they would don’t we peeps … they’d return the £25 Million to Westminster!

    2) I wonder what Murph the Smurph’s plans would be for this £25 Million …other that getting his dirty mitts on a significant swathe of the money for himself that is!

  125. muttley79 says:

    @One Scot

    Are you defending the cancer remark that was directed at him?

  126. A.N.Surgent says:

    Scotland has become two countrys, one based on reality mainly inhabited by YES people and one based on fantasy inhabited by the msm, unionists and halfwits.

  127. Natasha says:

    Excuse my ignorance, but who is Douglas Fraser? (Remember, I lived in England between the ages of 7 and 22 and led a fairly sheltered life until I met my Glaswegian ex WRP husband. Also, I don’t do Twitter).

  128. Natasha says:

    AN Surgent

    Scotland has become two countries, one based on reality mainly inhabited by YES people and one based on fantasy inhabited by the msm, unionists and halfwits.

    That’ll be why I find it increasingly hard to relate to my No voting colleagues. We’re just not in the same universe.

  129. Fairliered says:

    Sinky. I assume that when speaking about Brian Wilson O/T means over the top.

  130. Stoker says:

    Sinky,
    Good stuff @ 9.49pm.
    Glad i don’t contribute one single penny to it.
    The BBC, Sky or BT don’t get a penny from me.

    I’m not a football fan but i do know a little bit
    about the situation you explain through following
    the Sevco Saga.

    During that period i also learned, and found it
    very strange, that (conveniently) 2 Englishmen
    were brought in to “run” the Scottish game just
    prior to the Sevco scandal breaking (Regan and
    that other bloke with the glasses and dark short
    cropped hair). And i often wondered how some obscure
    previously unheard of English bloke, with a cricket
    background, could land himself in the top job at the SFA?

    I always maintain that ALL the powers that be, mainly at
    Celtic & Sevco, knew EXACTLY what was coming and that’s
    why Regan etc were brought in.

    One day these same people will disappear just as quickly,
    away back into obscurity, with far healthier personal bank balances.

    But will the Scottish game be any better off?
    Not until it gets rid of people such as Campbell Ogilvie, IMO.

  131. @Natasha says:

    Excuse my ignorance, but who is Douglas Fraser?

    Radio Scotland business editor ex hootsman.

  132. lochside says:

    DEVO the band: based their name on the quite apt meme that human behaviour was regressing..de-evolving.
    So I’ve got ‘an uncontrollable urge’ for Freedom of choice’cause I’can’t get no satisfaction’, so ‘whip it good ‘ to the’Blockhead(s) and ‘Secret agent man’….because after all ‘Are we not men’?…we are ‘Jock(o)Homo’.

    That’s enough Devo…saw them twice at the Apollo back in the day. Best memory is a bunch of mad Glesca punters at the pit in front of the towering stage jumping and bumping into each other with stocking masks on..blind and (see top of thread).

  133. The crowd at the Caird Hall that would make up about a third of the Labour Party membership.

    @Lesley-Anne. – Well I was in the same row as the person who took the photo. Great meeting, she was an inspiration. One of the questions was from a 10 year old told her he wanted to be the PM and so what training would he need to start. Nicola was great answered him, praised him and then told him to make sure his Mum emails her (Nicola) and she will arrange for him to go to Holyrood for a tour and look around with her and he will also get to sit in the FM chair as part of his training.

  134. Fairliered says:

    O/T. Can all Wingers please check out and respond to http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/11/02/a-yes-registry/ Braco, who posted the original article on Bella Caledonia, and all of us in Yes Largs are trying to get as wide a coverage as possible to get this very practical project widely known. It’s success depends on ‘word of mouth’!”. Braco can be contacted on nationalyesshopregistry [at] hushmail [dot] com. We have reopened the Largs Yes Shop – details at http://yes-largs.blogspot.co.uk/ and are hoping to work with other similar shops and organisations. We want to share ideas, recommendations for speakers, support, equipment, coffee and inspiration. If you can help, it will be really appreciated. Thanks. Braco and Fairliered (and all the other Largs Yessers).

  135. One_Scot says:

    What? Who said I was defending anything, and who mentioned cancer. Here’s a wee tip, stick to the facts and try not to manipulate them, it does you no favours.

  136. tombee says:

    That pic of the attendance at the Caird Hall, Dundee.
    Does that not just make your eyes water. Onward and upward, the day will dawn.
    I’m looking forward to the Hydro, Glasgow.

  137. Lesley-Anne says:

    Marcia says:

    James,

    I am sorry I am in London and not at the Caird Hall tonight. I don’t think Lesley-Anne was at the meeting. Don’t think there are many buses that run from Dumfries to Dundee. 🙂

    Regrettably you are right Marcia. Mind you I’m not too upset, I was at the Easterbrook Halls in Dumfries last Friday when Nicola paid us a wee visit on her tour. 😀

    Unfortunately Easterbrook Halls are not as big as the Caird Hall but we still managed to cram in over 1,000 into the hall. Hope this link works.

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/101639850456727702167/albums/6079103831410039313/6079103837817712386?pid=6079103837817712386&oid=101639850456727702167

  138. caz-m says:

    Nicola Sturgeon’s “One Scotland” twitter page with some amazing pics from Dundee tonight.

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon

  139. caz-m says:

    The Herald:
    “Sturgeon appeals to Labour voters to back SNP in 2015.”

    Nicola Sturgeon has appealed to Labour supporters who backed independence to vote SNP to “keep alive that dream of a better country”.

    In a speech in Dundee tonight the Deputy First Minister also called out to those who voted No in the referendum on the “promise of more powers” to lend their vote to the party and “remove the Labour roadblock to change”.

  140. YESGUY says:

    Outstanding Stu

    This shows how aware we are up here and the MSM think they can bullshit us ,Aye right.

    What an almighty shock WM is in for when they deliver nixie.

    People are well up on the vow. This will make the NO voters look like mugs and the results show . Oh to be a “Smug” YES voter 🙂

  141. muttley79 says:

    @One Scot

    Not sure what you are on about. I mentioned a horrible comment directed at Douglas Fraser, and you turned it into whataboutery.

  142. horacesaysyes says:

    @James Caithness – I’ve discovered through Facebook that the wee boy’s Mum is a friend of a friend. They met up with Nicola afterwards, got a photo taken and have passed along their details already 🙂

  143. Giving Goose says:

    Re A.N.Surgent

    I’ve been forming a similar view.
    Sometimes I find it easier to simplify things.
    I increasingly do not follow the cuddly approach where we should embrace No voters as fellow travellers who have all been fooled or are simply misinformed. True there are many of them, but there a large number out there who are quite simply people who, in my view, hold viewpoints which are anti-social and unpleasant.
    The union equates with child poverty.
    The union equates with nuclear weapons.
    The union equates with elitism.
    The union equates with a divided society.
    I’m not going to embrace someone who, given the choice in a democratic vote, selects these as acceptable building blocks of a nation.
    Forget it, these are not what I see as fundamentally Scottish attributes nor do I want my country associated with them.
    Thinking No voters are not Scots and they can drop the Proud Scot garbage. There’s noting to be proud about!

  144. Lesley-Anne says:

    I agree James, Nicola is an inspiration. Nothing seems to phase her at all, I don’t think you can say the same for any of the alleged leaders of the BIG THREE parties a.k.a. the Three Amigo’s. 😛

    I have to admit that Nicola does like a good laugh as well. If any one doubted this fact then everyone at Easterbrook halls witnessed this first hand. If you zoom in on the first picture in the link above and look towards the right hand side you can just about make out a clown’s head. No HONESTLY there was a guy there dressed up as a clown AND he asked Nicola a question. There was only one small itsy bitsy teeny weeny wee problem with this. Whenever Nicola looked towards him she burst out laughing. As she said she could not keep a straight face whilst talking to him. 😛

    The whole clown *ahem* incident really topped a fantastic night in Dumfries. In fact this week’s local rag has a piece covering the event including a photo of the clown asking his question.

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/101639850456727702167/albums/6079103831410039313

  145. Grouse Beater says:

    “I’d like to see the Scots put their hatred of the English aside and grow up. I understand they have an issue, but we all have an issue with Westminster.”
    Annie Lennox.

    We await your move, Annie, from senseless diva to elected politician so you can fix your ‘issue’ with Westminster.

  146. caz-m says:

    tombee 11.16pm
    “That pic of the attendance at the Caird Hall, Dundee.
    Does that not just make your eyes water. Onward and upward, the day will dawn.”

    Have a good bubble (with pride) at this:

    “Scots, Wha Hae…”

    Scots, wha hae wi’ Wallace bled,
    Scots, wham Bruce has aften led,
    Welcome to your gory bed,
    Or to victorie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKT7qxk9-pw

  147. heedtracker says:

    Boyack peddles same old devo fraud that Lamont waffled on about, lucky old councils showered with lashings of money and devo so Holyrod doesn’t have to crapola in Hootsman

    “Ms Boyack told the audience that if elected leader and then first minister, she wanted to see a properly funded health service, affordable childcare and quality schools, the mending of local government funding and “double devolution”, with new powers and resources passed from central government to councils.”

    Red Tory’s very keen on devo to Scottish councils but polls say councils no longer red Tory heart land either.

  148. A.N.Surgent says:

    Good news is not very common these days,so you would think the NHS receiving 25m would be all over the news,but it will barely get a mention, and if it does there will be a negative attached.

    Can anyone tell me offhand how many people in total will attend Nicola`s roadshow.

  149. Alex Clark says:

    @Giving Goose

    Then we have problem, though I agree with the sentiment.

    If the No vote was 55% in the referendum how can we ever hope to win another, unless at least 5% of those No voters switch from No to Yes?

    Do we wait until the older generation who in the main voted No die off or should we be more proactive?

    I support the latter, the way to win is to convince enough that voted No this time around to change their mind. In fact in my view it is the only way.

    We must win the argument first through solid reason, else forget it.

  150. Grouse Beater says:

    Sorry, Lennox is singing her heart out on some late-night entertainment show where everybody is there to sell their latest book, film, or TV series. Whatever ability she has, however I used to admire her success, is obliterated by the memory of that recent dumb outburst.

  151. ronnie anderson says:

    Im glad to see that we’re bringing foreign affairs & defence,to the discussion, we have been screwed over the defence budget for long & weary paying double than what we get back in services.
    As for foreign affairs who’s affairs will the British Establishment promote ( they’rs ) & we get screw’d for the bill.

    Did some of us forget that Scottish company’s had to pay for the use of british embassies in the promotion of Scottish produse.

  152. No no no...Yes says:

    Caz-m
    James Caithness and others’ comments about Nicola on tour in Dundee.

    My wife and I were at the Caird Hall tonight and the atmoshere was phenomenal.

    Highlights included two new members in their 50’s who had no previous interest in politics, and joined SNP in September. They took the mike, spoke in public in front of 2,000 of their peers and asked great questions. Scotland is awake and won’t rest until it gains independence!

    Gig overran as Nicola kept taking questions and she stayed afterwards for photos etc. On our way out saw David Clegg of the DR standing near John Swinney,don’t know if they were in conversation.Just checked Clegg twitter a/c and he was giving tweets throughout.

    Nicola is an inspiration, GE starts now folks!

  153. Natasha says:

    Cynical Highlander 11.04pm

    Thanks, my education continues! 🙂

  154. Lesley-Anne says:

    A.N.Surgent says:

    Good news is not very common these days,so you would think the NHS receiving 25m would be all over the news,but it will barely get a mention, and if it does there will be a negative attached.

    Can anyone tell me offhand how many people in total will attend Nicola`s roadshow.

    I think you are asking “how long is a piece of string there A.N.S. 😉

    From the figures I’ve seen quoted about the Caird Hall tonight and the figures for the Easterbrook hall meeting you have in the region of 3,000. I believe that the Hydro, which sold out quicker than Lady GaGa, apparently, holds 12,000.

    All we need now is the audience figures for the Corn Exchange in Edinburgh ( October 29th ), Eden Court in Inverness ( November 10th ), and the Music Hall in Aberdeen ( December 7th ). Once we get these figures then we’ll be able to give you a more accurate figure. 😀

    My guess would be that overall Nicola will have stood in front of around 50,000 people. Not bad for someone who will soon be the leader of a party on the LOSING side of the referendum. I wonder how many people Murph the Smurph plans on speaking to in the coming weeks. 😛

  155. Morag says:

    I believe it’s about 18,000 in total, or that’s what I read anyway. The other venues are quite small relative to the Glasgow one.

  156. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater (11.51) –

    Do you happen to have a source for that Annie Lennox quote? Just curious.

  157. Lesley-Anne says:

    Don’t be too surprised about any gig over running where Nicola is concerned Caz. She is just following the great example that has been set by her predecessor. 😉

    Unlike the unionist Three Amigo’s who all speak in front of pre vetted audiences and then run a mile as soon as they are finished rather than answer questions Alex Salmond and now Nicola Sturgeon almost make it a required ritual that their gigs over run due to exactly the reasons you point out.

    If anyone wanted to know the difference between the S.N.P. and the unionist parties this is it, the SNP politicians have absolutely no problem with over running or talking to the audience members afterwards, including the taking of selfies. 😛

  158. manandboy says:

    O/T But bad news is coming in from Westminster.
    In a complete reversal of the Governments convictions that the Scottish Oil & Gas industry was on the verge of a catastrophic decline, timed just before the Independence Referendum, the latest prognosis could not be more contrary.

    http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1153/more-jobs-as-134-oil-and-gas-licences-awarded-in-uk-waters/

    Reports of the UK Gov keeping this information back till after the Referendum have been robustly denied by No.10 Downing St. A spokesperson for the prime Minister said that there had been a slight oversight which had since been corrected.

    He then went on to say, ‘What do the stupid f*ckin’ Scots want with all that oil anyway? If they can’t figure out that we’re nicking it from them, then they don’t deserve to have it. Anyway, we need the money for Crossrail and one or two other London projects.’

  159. YESGUY says:

    Lesley Anne

    That picture of Nichola in Dundee rocks. Take a look folks. Friday night and not out for a bevy but out for a political meet. Scotland is awake and well aware.

    We lost the referendum right ??

    labour are a shambles , tory’s ignored , Libdems are deid , really deid Greens SSP and SNP having staggering rises in membership and they won’t be sitting on their arses listening to the MSM.

    Ah Scotland, we make things so hard for ourselves. These figures scream out for independence . FFA minimum .

    But we get there in the end 🙂

  160. arranc says:

    was at Dundee to-night full house fantastic we are on one BIG move

  161. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian: Do you happen to have a source for that Annie Lennox quote?

    It’s stayed with me because, of all celebrities, I’d have expected the ‘waitress from an Aberdeen cafe,” approaching sixty years of age, and been through the crap that is the music business, to know by now where power lies.

    Instead she carries the role of airhead well – I base that on a thirty minute interview sickly with first person singular but never actually uttering a word of wisdom.

    Google the first sentence of her remarks, adding ‘Lennox.’ I bet you get half-a-dozen headline reports, Ian.

  162. Grouse Beater says:

    Yes Guy: We will get there.

    We will, we most certainly will.

  163. Kenny says:

    Nicola seems to have a way with the kids. Can you imagine any kids reaching out to Gordon Broon, Lamont or Murphy? I can’t!

    Nicola is also a very canny politician, I like the way she reached out to the no voters. I am sure only the most hardbitten among them would believe she does not work for ALL Scots.

    Nicola alone is capable of taking us to independence, getting even more support behind the yes voters. With Nicola at the helm of the SNP (and Murphy at the helm of the good ship “Red Tory Titanic”) I can quite see Labour fighting it out with the Lib Dems in the future for third place in Scottish politics!

    Annie Lennox shows how out of touch she is. What sort of anti-English hatred is she on about? The only hatred is for revolting ("Tractor" - Ed)s like Broon who lied to the country about the NHS and tried to frighten the vulnerable, the poor, the elderly. Or Murphy who loves nuclear weapons more than his own ma!

    Either Annie Lennox has been getting her information from BBC East Sussex or she disappeared up herself so far twenty odd years ago (when she last had a hit single) that she has lost all touch with reality. I say it is the latter!*

    * A third possibility is she is trying to flog a new album and wants to try and get airtime on our beloved (not) BBC…

  164. A.N.Surgent says:

    Lesley-Anne

    50,000 is a helluva a lot of people, especially when unionists down south are talking about the people not connecting with politics. We really are in a different world. My mojo seems to be returning. 🙂

    Read that the turnout in the usa mid-terms was 36%.

  165. Lesley-Anne says:

    I am just so proud to be a member of the 45 these days.

    I think I posted last month that I had been to my local SNP branch meeting where we were told that our membership had doubled since 19th September from around 70 members to 150 members approx. 😀

    Well folks I was at another SNP branch meeting last night and guess what peeps, our membership has only gone and doubled up again. Yep that’s right our local branch membership now stands in the region of 350. That’s not bad for what was ostensibly a small SNP branch in the South of Scotland. 😛

    When you add this news from the South of Scotland to all these magnificent pictures from the various meetings that Nicola Sturgeon is having then I just feel WE have definitely got momentum with our side. The RED/YELLOW/BLUE/PURPLE Tories can only dream of achieving a quarter of what we are currently achieving.

    Let’s keep the ball rolling forward folks. 😉

  166. Taranaich says:

    Just back from the hustings in Port Glasgow. It went great: I’d like to commend all three candidates, I agree that all would make fine deputes. I have a pretty clear idea of a favourite, but I’ll vote after a few more day’s deliberation.

    @Natasha: That’ll be why I find it increasingly hard to relate to my No voting colleagues. We’re just not in the same universe.

    You know, that sounds like a pretty neat science-fiction/”Weird Tale”: voters for different parties really DO live in slightly parallel universes, where they experience things slightly differently due to a weakening of the Veil Between The Worlds, where The Space Between The Planes is shorter. Hence how Tory voters really DO believe rich people are richer because they’re hard-working – in their universe, that’s what’s happening. It’s just not *this* universe.

    @Grouse Beater: “I’d like to see the Scots put their hatred of the English aside and grow up. I understand they have an issue, but we all have an issue with Westminster.”

    At Yes Inverclyde, I can name half a dozen regular campaigners who were, in some way, English. A few born in England and raised in Scotland, like our MSP, Stuart McMillan. Some born in Scotland, and raised in England. And some born and raised in England, like our councillor Math Campbell-Sturgess. Luckily, we managed to put our apparent hatred of our friends, colleagues and family aside and work together for independence.

    (Seriously Annie, what the hell? I thought you were pro-Indy?)

  167. Auld Rock says:

    Hi Lesley-Anne. JM’s meetings – attendance will probably be much the same as those who followed his ‘road-show’ round Scotland, not only that it will probably be the same people. Be ready to check any pics from his meetings.

    Auld Rock

  168. Kenny says:

    Re Nicola’s gigs overrunning, that reminds me of Tommy Sheridan’s Hope over Fear tour of Scotland, when it was calculated that even the overflow (those who couldn’t get inside the halls) was larger than those who turned up for the very few and far between no meetings!

  169. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    What I find disappointing is the fact that for the past two weeks, in ‘off-topic’, we have been trying to get 16 Wingers to commit to booking a seat on the minibus from Dundee through to the ‘Friends of WOS’ get-together at the YES Bar in Glasgow, on Saturday 22nd November.

    We’ve got as high as 12, but there have been cancellations due to work commitments and so on so, for the last 48 hours, we have been down to 6.

    Thus, reluctantly, the minibus has been cancelled and the loyal 6 will be making our way by whatever means.

    So, WHY did all you peeps who are posting here FROM DUNDEE, not book seats on the minibus to Glasgow???

  170. Natasha says:

    Re Annie Lennox; it repeatedly strikes me as astonishing that there are all these people of Scottish upbringing who don’t have any faith or hope in their country, and yet here am I, brought up in England but the future of Scotland is the single most important thing in my life right now. Perhaps being Scottish is a state of mind?

  171. Natasha says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    I would have travelled all the way to Dundee just to have a seat on your minibus! xx

  172. Cherry Loudon says:

    I’m not as clued up on the ins and outs of politics as all of you are. I voted a very strong yes and will do it again in a heartbeat, so that said. My thoughts are these on devo max. If FFA except foreign affairs and defence is what we want. (for now)Shouldn’t the last word rest with the people of Scotland.

    I also think that we should have a bill sent by the UK gov for defence and foreign affairs.If we feel it’s a reasonable amount we pay, if not they have to negotiate with us.I don’t understand why we send Westminster ALL our hard earned money and they cream off as much as possible then give us pocket money. Am I talking rubbish. The UKgov has a strangle hold on us and I am so fed up feeling so helpless. Can someone also tell me how I can give to a crowd fund for putting an ad or whatever in the papers.I would also be obliged if I could be pointed in the right direction to be able to help out with doing what I can for the ge15.

  173. I wonder what the atmosphere at Murrayfield on Sat, the home of the 80 min Scotch ,will be when they start to sing FoS .With their family kilts on and their flasks of malt whisky pretending to be proud Scotch for the day
    I wonder if Gavin Hastings will sing ” But we can still rise now and be the nation again” and not feel a phoney.

  174. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Grouse Beater –

    I did as you suggested, and yes, there is a uniformity about the quotes, as they appear Google-wise at any rate.

    ‘I’d like to see the Scots put their hatred of the English aside and grow up. I understand they have an issue, but we all have an issue with Westminster. seems to be the ‘core’ quote, as it appears here:

    http://www.epsomguardian.co.uk/news/national/11530236.Lennox__avoided_eclipsing_men_/

    Why anyone feels that Annie Lennox’s thoughts on this are more worthy of attention than those of Scottish people who actually live and work there, remains mysterious, as does her use of ‘they’.

  175. Natasha says:

    Cherry – join your local SNP branch. That’s the practical thing to do.

    If you’re interested in how we can break into mainstream media, go to independence live tv, or referendum tv (soon to be Broadcasting Scotland) or http://www.scottishnews.scot. They’re all up-and-coming independent broadcasters who need crowdfunding and who are starting online but planning to move onto television as quickly as possible.

    Forgive me if I’m telling you stuff you already know!

  176. SqueuedPerspextive says:

    @Natasha
    8 November, 2014 at 12:43 am

    You have hit the nail on the head – being Scottish is a state of mind.

    To believe that the people in your community support each other; your colleagues at work strive together for a common cause that is for the benefit of that community; that the community at large benefits from a healthy, well educated and caring population living within the means of it’s environment and not leaving a debt for our children is something to which all nations could aspire.

    We cannot do this for all nations – but if we could do it for ourselves…well that would be something.

  177. Kenny says:

    @ A.N.Surgent says:
    7 November, 2014 at 11:58 pm
    “Good news is not very common these days,so you would think the NHS receiving 25m would be all over the news…”

    The SG would probably not want to divert resources away from social policies, but I wish they would print a free newspaper detailing their work to be delivered to every household in Scotland (and also to be given away at all British embassies abroad).

    The Commonwealth Games coming in under budget by such a large sum is completely unprecedented… maybe we could lend some money to the Canadians, who, I believe, are still paying off their 1976 Olympic Games?

  178. Lesley-Anne says:

    A.N.Surgent says:

    Lesley-Anne

    50,000 is a helluva a lot of people, especially when unionists down south are talking about the people not connecting with politics. We really are in a different world. My mojo seems to be returning. 🙂

    Read that the turnout in the usa mid-terms was 36%.

    Reading Morag’s post ANS it looks like I may have over calculated the figures just a tad. 😉 Apparently most of the locations are not that large. I believe Morag has read or heard a figure nearer the 18,000 mark. Maybe I was getting a wee bit carried away, oh O.K. a LOT carried away. 😛

    I would still question Murph the Smurph’s *ahem* ability to match even this number though. 😀

  179. Tackety Beets says:

    Without question the SNP have done a great job , great people , great attitude to the public which evolved into their great support .
    I too took a wee peep into the ” dark side”.
    ” God Auld Meldrum ” the posts were so frightening by way of insulting posters and factually incorrect etc etc .
    As above this site generally polices itsself , as Alex says , the occasional miss-judgement . I sometimes think it’s a bit harsh at times .
    This site has evolved into being a great source of information and facts .
    Any inaccurate post is generally corrected , usually in good spirit .
    I find , & there are probably many here like me , I jump on to WOS for a quick update and end reading every post . I had planned getting my life back to the old times after 18th . Nae chance !
    Thank you all for your views .
    This is the most interesting times politically for decades , relax and enjoy , and keep the good news to the front .
    Well done Stu .

  180. caz-m says:

    Ronnie Anderson
    Were you at the Anonymous rally in George Sq?

    I arrived just when they were walking round to Glasgow Green. So We walked round to the fireworks display with them, 50,000 inside the Green for the fireworks.

    About an hour later they walked back round to George Sq, My boy and I came back to the Square with them, good atmosphere. They all gathered at the front door of Glasgow City Chambers, loads of shouting and protesting, all good humoured. Didn’t see the Wings banner though.

  181. crazycat says:

    @ Natasha

    At the Women for Independence meeting in Perth last month, someone mentioned that “Being Scottish is a state of mind” is a quotation from Arthur Herman (How the Scots Invented the Modern World).

    I had just ordered some sew-on patches with “Don’t Blame Me, I Voted Yes” embroidered on them, so I had a discussion with the woman who makes them about another design bearing the Herman quote. I still haven’t decided whether to go ahead with this – the text is too long for a circle, and I am not sure how much I would like a rectangle or an oval. I’m also considering buying a badge-making machine, so perhaps that would be better.

  182. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Going by the lack of response to my mini-rant, I guess all the part-time Dundee Wingers have retired, up the stairs to Bedfordshire.

  183. Natasha says:

    @caz-m 12.59am

    Ha! Way ahead of you – saw Ronnie at Freedom Square on independence live tv (smug face). He was pontificating about the plural of ‘anonymous’ . . . It speaks volumes that Del Boy simply referred to him as Ronnie Anderson from Wings – his fame carries all before him!

  184. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    Are we not Eggmen? We are Devo. 😀

    (couldn’t resist)

  185. Natasha says:

    @crazycat 1.01am

    Wow! I must be channelling . . . or perhaps great minds just thunkalunk. 🙂

  186. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Doesn’t necessarily have to be circle, Crazycat.

    It would work as two text sizes across a round badge. (Will poddle about with that.)

  187. Tackety Beets says:

    Meant to say .
    Regarding numbers for Nicola’s Tour , don’t forget their are many many ordinary folk who want to go but there’s nae room .
    Hard to quantify , I’d bet there are more unable to see Nicola than there are Labour members .

  188. A.N.Surgent says:

    Kenny

    Its like all the good things that are done by the SNP,totally ignored. Free newsletter sounds a good idea,although the msm will roll it up and hit them over the head with it.

    Morag

    Sorry missed your comment, 18,000 is still good figures. And my mojo still good. 🙂

    Lesley-Anne

    Smurph will be going blue in the face knowing that he couldn`t ever get that many people to go and see him,maybe if he gave away free eggs he might get close.

  189. crazycat says:

    @ Brian

    The rectangle not circle was for the embroidered ones – as suggested by the maker -perhaps she buys in blanks and they constrain the amount of text. Anything much smaller than the point size on the patches I did buy would risk being quite hard to read and/or filling in the centres of o and a and e, for instance.

    I mentioned badges as an after-thought that occurred to me as I was typing; I haven’t really considered the details.

  190. caz-m says:

    Natasha

    Do you think Ronnie is ready for a Knighthood?

    Arise Sir Ronnie.

  191. ronnie anderson says:

    @Caz_m no you would,nt see the Wings banner it was in the Yes bar & the Horse shoe bar after we came back from GG.

  192. ronnie anderson says:

    @caz_M, Natasha,naebody,s hingin ah deed stoat roon ma neck.

  193. Lesley-Anne says:

    A.N.Surgent says:

    Lesley-Anne

    Smurph will be going blue in the face knowing that he couldn`t ever get that many people to go and see him,maybe if he gave away free eggs he might get close.

    Somehow I have my doubts about that ANS. Even with FREE eggs I think Murph the Smurph would struggle to reach DOUBLE figures far less FIVE figures in his audiences. 😛

  194. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Crazycat.

    I’ve found that down to 6 point works for subsidiary text, like a date round the bottom of a badge with 34mm visibility – a 38mm dia badge.

  195. Betty Boop says:

    @ Natasha, 8:38pm

    Plus there’s much more humour and banter on here. I really like both James Kelly and Craig Murray, but I’m going to stay away from their comments sections in future. Too depressing.

    Natasha, There are a number of comments sections which are not worth the bother, but, the blogs etc. are generally worthwhile, and in Craig Murray’s case, always worthwhile. He should be the conscience of the UK government.

  196. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Briandoonthetoon Brian if your making named badges for the 22nd please keep in mind Kevin/Delboy Livestream. kevin was asking me tonite when our next nite out was & where I told him the 22nd, BTW you/me would struggle to fit into a seat upstairs in Yes Bar I had to sit on a Speaker box on Wed nite & little seating downstairs in the bar, The Horse Shoe Bar has more room,food for thought folks.

  197. Cherry Loudon says:

    @Natasha I joined the SNP at 4 am on the 19th September. My main problem is I am housebound,I have difficulty being with lots of people, which is a real pain as I really am a social person and enjoy good company.I just can’t go out anymore. so I have been following WoS for around six months,a real eye opener for me,I knew some stuff was corrupt in London but not what I know now!

    I’ve donated what I could to one or two of the websites you mentioned but was really wanting to know how to give to wingers to crowdfund any projects that are ongoing.I would also like to know how to go about helping out with researching stuff.I think I just want to be able to do my bit in any way I can. So if any of the wingers would like my email address ask Stu he has my permission to give it to the right peeps.

  198. crazycat says:

    @ Brian

    Thanks – I’ll bear that in mind when I get my badge-maker (I know I’m going to get one; I’m just pretending to still be thinking about it, because I couldn’t possibly be said to need one, and it’s a bit self-indulgent!) and will play around with some designs even before then.

  199. Doug Daniel says:

    There’s a guy at my work who was one of the three that I thought “if they ever decide to vote for independence, we’ve won massively”. Tonight he informed me that if he felt Westminster had gone back on the promises they made or rUK voted to leave the EU and we didn’t, and we held a second referendum, he would vote Yes.

    We WILL win next time, folks. It’s going to happen.

  200. ronnie anderson says:

    @Cherry Louden. A big welcome to You Cherry, you can donate to WOS on a monthly basis just klik the donate at the top of the page set up a direct debit. Stu has said previously that he does,nt evisage a crowd fund till after Jan & they are posted up, seems you 6mths visit is going to last a long time<You,ve got the virus same as the rest of us here Enjoy.

  201. yesindyref2 says:

    Natasha
    Split in 3 perhaps. “Being Scottish” rounded at the top, then straight “is a” level with the bottom of the arc, then under that the third line “State of Mind”. Leaves room under for a small Saltire perhaps – I tried it in Avery Design Pro.

  202. Alex Clark says:

    @Cherry Loudon

    I’m sorry to hear that you are housebound. You are already giving though just by contributing your thoughts. Please continue to do so.

    No matter where you live I am certain someone here would help you make it to a meeting or event if you felt you could attend.

    You can also email me at Thepnr [at] mailinator [dot] com if you feel like it.

  203. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Cherry Loudon, as for reshearching,its up to yourself surfing the internet/newspapers/tv /radio, anything that is of interest to us just post it up ( with links ) if possible, hope that helps you.

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorrym that was for crazycat.

  205. Cherry Loudon says:

    @RonnieAnderson thanks for the welcome! I’ve been a fan of your posts for a while now lol. Was it you that suggested that Scottish gov bought over the Clydesdale banking group? I thought that was a stroke of genius. I plan to stick around for as long as it takes to breathe free air 😉

  206. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Cherry Loudon, ME mentioning the Clysdale bank NO way, surcharged me £30 for being short of £4.46,& to add insult to injury it was for the Bbc licence fee ( when I paid it )it the went to £50,as it was my wife’s account,used rarely,I wrote them a nice letter ******** &&&&7 thats the sweary words ***&&&7. Cherry like You I was housebound for over a year, the people on here keept me going, far from a genious i was a raving loony & could,nt meet people noise revibreted in my head ,but as Alex Clark says let us know where your from & sombody near will contact you.

  207. yesindyref2 says:

    Looks OK printed on paper. 16 point “Being Scottish”, 14 point “is a” next line (single spacing) 14 point “State of Mind” (Comic Sans MS) with small Saltire underneath. On a 45 mm circle.

    Mmm, I might tidy it up and print it on some label stock I’ve got.

  208. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry I forgot to say that “State of Mind” is across the centre, maybe very slightly lower to get the balance.

  209. Betty Boop says:

    @ Cherry Loudon

    Welcome Cherry. Wings keeps you sane and kept me going through campaigning.

    There’s a smashing bunch of folk posting on here.

  210. ronnie anderson says:

    @ betty boop noo dont gild the lily betty ( wings keeps you sane) it can drive you menthol at times, there again we huvnae hud a troll this week lol.

  211. crazycat says:

    @ yesindyref2

    I was just about to say I thought your post was aimed at me, when I saw that you had realized that yourself.

    Maybe tomorrow I’ll play about with it – absolutely NOT Comic Sans though!!! 🙂

  212. Cherry Loudon says:

    @AlexClark & @RonnieAnderson & @bettyboop
    goodness never felt so welcomed on here before! I live in Blantyre which isn’t far from Hamilton. I don’t want to appear to be moaning about my problem but I’ve got vertigo which makes me very dizzy. I find it is easier to be in my home than out in the wide world as I can sort of control my world but not the outside world.I would love to chat with others about “stuff” whither online or other ways. I’m glad I asked some questions tonight maybe should’ve done that months ago lol. Hope to get to know you all better in the future and thanks for being so helpful.

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    Copperplate Gothic Bold is nice, cutting the Being Scottish to 15 point – don’t forget that’s in an arc around near the top. Well, the way I tried it.

    Yes, fonts can be personal, I must be a clown so I like the comic bit 🙂

  214. Grouse Beater says:

    Cherry: Hope to get to know you all better in the future and thanks for being so helpful.

    Welcome.

    Housebound? Take a gander at my blogsite to see if any subjects interest you. I hope to read more of your support and ideas for self-governance restored.

  215. yesindyref2 says:

    crazycat
    Putting a box around “State of Mind” means it can be dead central and separates it from the Being Scottish curvy bit at the top, and the saltire underneath (with a border).

    Not sure if I like the box all the same, but it does stand out.

    No idea if that could all be embroidered, it’d be fine work.

    Mmm, hopefully it’ll appear as my gravatar. It’s just a draft mind you!

  216. yesindyref2 says:

    Me again, “is a” (two spaces) would need to be higher. Mouse hover over avatar to get it bigger, double-click to get it bigger still. Needs work.

  217. Macart says:

    A new Winger.

    Welcome Cherry. 🙂

  218. One_Scot says:

    I’ll tell you what I am on about, Douglas Fraser is no angel, he played his part in preventing Scotland’s Independence, big time, online and on the BBC. As for his health, I have no interest in that whatsoever, so you can put that card away.

    I asked a question and you replied with a question, so I am not really sure what you are on about, me turning it into a ‘whataboutery’.

    But using your logic, are you saying that if Alan Cochrane suddenly develops an illness, I should open my arms and say, come here Cockers, give me a big hug, what are you like, you cheeky little monkey.

  219. cearc says:

    yesindyref2,

    Saltire in centre with ‘is’ and ‘a’ in the quarters ‘State of Mind’ wrapped at bottom?

    Hello Cherry.

    One_Scot,

    ‘I should open my arms and say, come here Cockers, give me a big hug, what are you like, you cheeky little monkey.’

    A very unkind suggestion. If you’re wearing a big cybernat badge, at the time he would die of apoplexy!

  220. STARLAW says:

    Hi who owns indy 2 logo, could use it to replace road tax disc. Just the job

  221. Luigi says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    8 November, 2014 at 12:41 am

    What I find disappointing is the fact that for the past two weeks, in ‘off-topic’, we have been trying to get 16 Wingers to commit to booking a seat on the minibus from Dundee through to the ‘Friends of WOS’ get-together at the YES Bar in Glasgow, on Saturday 22nd November.

    We’ve got as high as 12, but there have been cancellations due to work commitments and so on so, for the last 48 hours, we have been down to 6.

    Thus, reluctantly, the minibus has been cancelled and the loyal 6 will be making our way by whatever means.

    So, WHY did all you peeps who are posting here FROM DUNDEE, not book seats on the minibus to Glasgow???

    Too bad – sorry to hear. Perhaps if a combined Aberdeen-Dundee (or North east) contingent was organised, you could fill a bus. Start at Aberdeen, pick up at Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee etc?

  222. yesindyref2 says:

    cearc

    Or even easier, the whole thing goes around, starting at 6.30 clockwise to 5.30. with the Saltire in the middle. Copperplate Gothic Bold 15, on a 45 mm circle.

    Mmm, I like simple. Suits my nature.

    I like the message, helps to build that identity Gordon Wilson was talking about, in a non-threatening way, conversation starter perhaps.

  223. yesindyref2 says:

    STARLAW
    It’s mine, done with my own “fair” hand, no copyright for YES supporters. Or NO supporters either! Free for use.

    Click on the avatar and you can get a bigger picture. It’s not great, scanner doesn’t give a proper white background, but it did for a draft.

  224. Neil Dorward says:

    Nicola was on great form in Dundee last night and I came back home around 10:30 and was tempted to watch the forbidden channel – BBC Scotland news at 10:35, sorry it was a moment of weakness. Was curious as to whether Nicola at the Caird Hall would be reported. No. The opening story was about SLAB and there was a huge SLAB backdrop picture behind the newsreader. Was tempted again to look at BBC Scotland web site this morning to see if there was a photo – of myself of course at the Caird Hall. No. Still Nicola rightly told 1500 people last night not to be overly worried about the BBC or media as she believes it can de-energise us to look at what the media refuse to do. Be positive, she said, take the media into your hands and go around, over and under and no-one will stop our message getting out. Thanks for the reminder Nicola and please pray for me that I will avoid any temptation to watch the naughty channel again.

  225. galamcennalath says:

    Pentland Firth says:
    ” Scots are ready for Full Fiscal Autonomy, but not yet for full independence. Some folk were concerned that if we went for independence we would be ejected from the European Union, left defenceless outside NATO, and refused a currency union with rUK. All the arguments (and humour) deployed to reassure them had, I fear, little or no success, and they voted No. But, and it’s a big but (no sniggering at the back, please), none of those fears apply to Devo Max. ”

    I agree with that assessment.

    I would suggest that if a poll asked the question something like

    Assuming EU & NATO membership and use of the pound sterling have been now successfully pre-negotiated, Should Scotland move to being an Independent country?

    The result might approach FFA levels.

  226. JLT says:

    Wow! I think these figure out of the whole poll tell a real picture of what Scottish people, not only think, but what they are wanting, Rev!

    This will get very interesting should the Smith Commission deliver something way less than satisfactory. As you said in a previous article …we live in interesting times!

  227. starlaw says:

    Thanks indi2, was in discussion with a friend about uses for unused road tax disc holders, this should fill a hole.

  228. HandandShrimp says:

    I think it is pretty clear from this and just about every poll that it is the will of the Scottish people to have FFA or full Home Rule.

    The SNP and Greens have tabled this in the Smith Commission so it will be up to the others to either work towards that or come up with weasel words. I’m expecting the latter but given the turmoil and panic within in the Westminster parties over a whole range of issues it will be interesting to see just how well they stand up to a kicking when they betray their Vow.

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    starlaw
    It could do with cleaning up though. I might do that later on. The Saltire for instance was a small image, so tax disc size it’ll look jaggy. I’d need to do a lot bigger one, change the image and upload the lot again. Hopefully tonight sometime.

  230. Robert Louis says:

    Think again at 1712, last night,

    You and others have raised an interesting point about Devo max not being on the referendum paper. Of course Alex Salmond opened up the opportunity for the unionists to put in a third question into the referendum, but they declined.

    Why did they opt not to include devo max on the ballot? Simple, and as unionists publicly stated at the time, they felt it was a ‘get-out’ card for Alex Salmond, as they in London were absolutely certain they would have a resounding NO vote, and they believed that Alex Salmond secretly wanted a third question, because he ‘knew’ he would lose. They were wrong on both counts.

    The polling data before and since, including the data above, have clearly shown that the majority of Scots (by some considerable margin) want full powers for the Scottish Parliament. This is a consistent finding by several polling methods, and so, it seems that yet again, with the Smith charade offering us devo nano, Westminster will once again walk into a niggling bear trap of its own making.

    There is an oft expressed fear within Westminster that devo max (and the definition of this has been well known for donkeys years)will lead to automatic independence. My response to that is two fold, firstly, I am not convinced that if Scotland had full powers within the UK, that it would be that easy to muster mass support for making that final step to independence. Secondly, IF (and it is a big IF) Scotland did gain full devo max, and then later decided to go for full independence, then surely that is DEMOCRACY in action.

    The problem for Westminster, and unionists is they are obsessed with controlling everything at Westminster – the ‘big boy’ parliament as they see it. Not only is such a viewpoint terribly outdated, but it stands full square in the road of true democratic representation for Scotland.

    Therein lies the problem, and this is why this issue will NEVER be settled by anything less than full devo max/full fiscal autonomy, no matter how they spin it.

  231. manandboy says:

    @Neil Dorward
    “Still Nicola rightly told 1500 people last night
    not to be overly worried about the BBC or media
    as she believes it can de-energise us
    to look at what the media refuse to do.
    Be positive, she said, take the media into your hands and go around, over and under and no-one will stop our message getting out.

    A million elderly voters watch a lot of TV every day, particularly if they live alone or are housebound.
    The influence of TV in their lives can not be over stated.

    It was by TV that the No Campaign won. Pure and simple. They didn’t do anything else hardly. TV was enough.

    I really would have to hear Nicola explain exactly what she means by “go around, over and under and no-one will stop our message getting out “.

    The message got out but it did not reach the ears of the elderly in Indyref.

  232. Betty Boop says:

    @ yesindyref2; cearc; crazycat; Natasha; and everyone else interested in Being Scottish is a State of Mind” designs,

    I have just received a couple of printed stickers and an embroidered patch which can be sewn on clothes, etc., or used as a replacement for the tax disc. The message on them: Don’t blame me, I voted Yes

    They embroidered ones take a wee bit of time because they are hand sewn and are charged at £3.49 ea.

    RE: The designs from yesindyref2, I like it although I too am not sure about the box. Also like Cearc’s idea of “State of Mind” wrapped round the bottom.

  233. Grouse Beater says:

    Some folk were concerned that if we went for independence we would be ejected from…

    There are two suppositions in your assessment. The first is that all who voted No want greater powers, and the second, if offered them the same voters will agree to them.

    We have all, myself included, been inclined to turn 55% into potential Yes voters. The truth is far fewer than 55% will vote Yes next time around. Some people who voted No don’t want a single extra power because they see it as weakening the UK. Brown wasn’t daft. He preached to the converted.

    Do we know the exact number of No voters, the ones who have no identification with things Scottish, nor allegiance to Scotland or its politics, but instead are what I call forever Anglophile? If we did, can we separate them from the others? Or are there numbers too great to give Scotland genuine democracy?

    If we stop wasting our time trying to convince them of their myopic attitude we might see better those who were switherers – the ones who say, “I know Scotland should be independent again but not now.”

    I can see the weeds in my garden and remove them. I can’t identify No voters from Not Now voters.

  234. Sinky says:

    Surely the BBC can’t ignore coverage of Nicola’s 12,000 sell out gig at the Hydro on 22 November.

    Probably the largest ever live audience for any politician in Scotland in 21st Century.

  235. manandboy says:

    Robert Louis says…“then surely that is DEMOCRACY in action.

    It is, of course, but only from one side.

    I understand that most of the population thinks that the UK is ‘democratic’, in contrast with, say, Russia.
    However, the same people believe that the Government and the BBC tell the truth at all times.
    And 50 million people in England believe that Scotland is subsidised by English taxpayers.

    The truth is of course that NONE of these three beliefs are in fact true.

    Sure, the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of democracy continues in the UK but is there true democracy when the voters are deluged with lies during a campaign in which only one side has control of ALL the media, and in which the very Laws, viz.Purdah, governing the campaign are broken by the State, and in which vulnerable groups of voters are threatened by the Government?

    Bankers are usually dressed very smartly indeed.
    ‘Dress to impress’ comes to mind.
    But it is only an impression, designed to hide the truth.

    Democracy in the UK is also merely an impression.

  236. Grouse Beater says:

    A Flag Party – grousebeater.wordpress

    My grandson’s description – Seanair suggests Declaration of Arbroath as a good annual ‘Flag Party.’

  237. Grouse Beater says:

    Sinky: Surely the BBC can’t ignore coverage of Nicola’s 12,000 sell out gig at the Hydro on 22 November.

    Oh, yes they can.

    Brown locked in a cupboard with three toothless old pensioners haranging them about being penniless under independence is of far greater public interest than Sturgeon talking to the multitude.

    She might get a passing mention, Brown gets an hour’s broadcasting time.

  238. Morag says:

    As far as the numbers go, 18,000 was just the total capacity of all the venues quoted by the SNP. They all sold out. So we don’t know how many people would have turned up if they’d been able to get in.

    The Dundee event didn’t seem quite full at the back, from the photos. I suppose there are always some people who don’t show up for one reason or another when it’s a free ticket. It would be a shame if some people who wanted to go didn’t get in because non-attenders hogged some of the tickets.

  239. Grouse Beater says:

    The Dundee event didn’t seem quite full at the back, from the photos.

    A tiny moment in time frozen – not necessarily the full reality; exact moment unknown, either thirty minutes before the lecture or during, (doubtful if Sturgeon is talking) or just after, when people begin to drift away.

    On the other hand, a photograph of Murphy on his soapbox talking to thin air could be taken an hour either side of his brief street event.

  240. Grouse Beater says:

    The Dundee event didn’t seem quite full at the back, from the photos.

    A tiny moment in time frozen – not necessarily the full reality; exact moment unknown, either thirty minutes before the lecture or during, (doubtful if Sturgeon is talking) or just after, when people begin to drift away.

    On the other hand, a photograph of Murphy on his soapbox talking to thin air could be taken an hour either side of his brief street event.

  241. YESGUY says:

    Grouse beater .

    “I can see the weeds in my garden and remove them. I can’t identify No voters from Not Now voters.”

    Well said. I know there are NO voters out my way but they never let on and tend to avoid discussion.

    The Not now Voters are a different . We must show these folk that the time is now. We have oil and gas, a huge food and drinks industry and much more. Do we go for independence later when WM have milked us dry?

    We have to make a noise when the SC offers us the minimum. If we moan loud enough some will listen. No one likes to be conned.

    Still it would be nice to go straight to the switherers and ignore the Die hards. Spotting them is the bugger though.

    Cherry Louden

    Welcome to the Wings party. There are a few disabled here so your not alone. Let us know your thoughts and fears as we need to discuss all matters. Everyone counts here.

    Scan the web looking for info and chuck in a link . This gets folk interested. Some of us can’t get enough. You can argue your case with more info and those that argue against tend not to have all the facts anyway.

    Right Grouse Beater , i’m off to find a “no vote scanner”

    Amazon or something might have one. 🙂

  242. Grouse Beater says:

    Yes Guy: Right Grouse Beater, I’m off to find a “no vote scanner”

    Like a hoard of Viking gold in a field, watch out the Crown doesn’t claim the lot! 🙂

  243. Paula Rose says:

    I know ‘no’ voters who would have voted for FFA/DevoMax, these are the people I am convincing to vote SNP at the GE in order to get the best deal.

    (Hi Cherry Louden, if you ‘do’ fb check out UKOK)

  244. Bob Mack says:

    Fellow Wingers,
    If you look at how far we have come towards regaining our own voice as a nation ,it is difficult to see it as other than a triumph for a number of reasons. Firstly after the Treaty of Union ,came one of historys most massive experiments in social and genetic engineering ,with the ultimate aim of keeping the Scots in a tight hold from which they would never escape. Breaking up our clan systems, controlling our currency,controlling our dress, using our land for sheep and scattering our people to the four winds.Creating religious intolerance hence the rise of institutions however unsavoury like the Orange Order. Retired English selling their houses for fortunes and moving North to buy cheaper and have sufficient left to maintain a good standard of living. Utilising the rewards of the Honours system to create loyalty and fieldty.(Sir Ian Wood being a classic example)This psychological onslaught on our country has bee going on for over 300 years ,and yet over 1.6 million of my fellow Scots turned out and voted YES in spite of the avalanche of mass media propaganda pushed on them every minute of every day. Be proud and hold your heads high, and remember that we are slowly becoming a people again, and the future will be bright.

  245. crazycat says:

    @ Betty Boop

    Your sew-on patch sounds like the ones I have, although mine are just too big to fit in my tax disc holder – they are the same diameter as the complete holder, not the space within it that accommodates the disc. I haven’t tried squeezing one in to see what happens.

    Mine arrived the day I was in Perth and heard the “Being Scottish….” quote, so I wrote to the woman who embroiders them and she said it probably wouldn’t fit in a circle, but now that we are talking here about badges, there are different constraints.

    Plenty of creative suggestions for all of us who are so inclined to play about with.

  246. Natasha says:

    yesindyref, crazycat et al; brilliant ideas for the ‘being Scottish is a state of mind’ badges/stickers etc. I’m in awe of your ingenuity. I’ll be ordering if you’re producing; just let me know where, when and how much!

    Cherry – sorry if I appeared patronising earlier; you’re obviously way ahead of me! I remember you posting shortly after the referendum, glad to see you commenting again.

  247. Grouse Beater says:

    Bob Mack:
    If you look at how far we have come towards regaining our own voice as a nation

    A very good point.

    For a long time independence supporters were a ‘lunatic fringe.’ Lately, consistently throughout the Referendum campaign, we were derided because support was a myth, ‘imagined,’ ‘delusional,’ untested.

    We were told it was ‘30%’ or less.

    What happened to that taunt since?

  248. Bob Mack says:

    @ Grouse Beater
    Agree with you whole heartedly. Watching Scotland just now is like watching my wee girls first steps. I wanted her to perform on command because I was so proud of her, and wanted to show everyone what she could do . Needless to say she did not oblige. My wife reminded me that she had to build confidence and strength before that could happen. Much as is happening to my country just now. I cannot wait, but I know now it is coming.

  249. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Luigi.

    The problem with the bus starting from Aberdeen…

    Our minibus (or bigger if we had needed it) was being supplied By Bob Costello, who is the boss of Sidlaw Travel and Team YES Bus, obviously located in Dundee.

    He supplied the bus for the ‘Hope Over Fear’ rally, the YES Bus (Scotland’s Dragon for Independence) and the Business For Scotland battle bus.

    He was only looking for £8 a head (same as ‘Hope Over Fear’) as a contribution to the actual cost. Ask Alex Clark how much it cost for the bus from Brechin to the Wings get-together in the Counting House in Glasgow back in May.

    Also, we would have been leaving Glasgow at midnight, rather than earlier. To allow the driver to travel to Aberdeen and back to Dundee for 2am would mean leaving Glasgow ridiculously early.

    I’m guessing a bus from Aberdeen would have been at least £20-25 per head.

  250. David says:

    Spot on by Bob Mack at 2:21pm. We have been subject to establishment lies, belittlement, and discrimination for our entire lives. In no particular order: “Too wee, too poor, too stupid.” “If you want to succeed, move to London.” “The problem with Scotland is that it is full of Scots.” “Chippy Jocks.”

    They (the lies & deceptions) are constantly there, in the background, so that we almost do not notice them until our attention is drawn to them. They become easy to ignore, especially if your life is ‘comfortably numb’ – we are brainwashed as Brits to dislike ‘causing a fuss’.

    But there have always been problems in Scotland’s relationship with the ruling elite, in every area. I remember articles in the Herald in the 70s/80s by Doug Gillon, pointing out the difficulty of Scots to get selected for UK hockey teams, and I’m not a hockey lover.

    We need to keep hammering home the truth about how much of Scotland’s wealth has been diverted south to Westminster; how much of our industry has been purposely allowed to die out, by being starved of investment; and how our transport, whether air, sea, road or rail, has been underfunded & treated as second-class.

    ‘Good enough’ is simply not good enough for the people of Scotland any more.

  251. yesindyref2 says:

    Betty Boop; cearc; crazycat; Natasha; and everyone else.

    It wasn’t my idea to start with but I’ve knocked up designs. What I’ll do is clean them up, do 2 sizes, badge size, tax disc size – for each of the 3 versions I’ve done, and put them up on my gravatar profile as photos.

    They’d be free for personal use, free to modify, and free for any commercial use that was in connection with fund-raising for YES, which would allow badges to be embroidered by a third party, even for their profit.

    I’m not a graphic designer! Just a micro business who does the lot, jack of all trades and master of none, so anyone can be happy to do better, I’ll not take the huff.

    Should be ready later tonight, or tomorrow. Unfortunately design pro doesn;t ahve an export facility so I have to print, scan and clean up, though I might experiment with screen capture if anyone (Windows XP) can tell me how to do it. Or I’ll google it.

  252. yesindyref2 says:

    Alt+PrtScn and paste into a bmp – couldn’t be easier. Jings.

  253. David says:

    We need to reclaim our pride in our people, our country, our abilities. In engineering, for example, we used to supply the world with engineering products such as ships, railways, iron & steel, etc. I hope that some of this could be re-introduced in an independent Scotland, with a government which WANTED to support the country, not just send our wealth south.

    I am in Niteroi, a suburb of Rio de Janeiro, in Brazil, and my closest shopping centre (which used to be a bus station) is constructed from large girders made by the “Lanarkshire Steel Company Limited”. I felt uplifted when I first saw that stamped on them, a little bit of home out here with me. They are still in good condition too, probably better than the rest of the building.

    And then I started feeling angry, angry that we used to export to the whole of the world, when we had the factories, and the skilled workers, and the jobs.

    We also exported skilled textile workers to Brazil, to establish mills in Rio and elsewhere, helping establish football while they were here too. (Look up Thomas Donohue from Busby, who went to Bangu in north Rio.) People, our most valuable export, our saddest loss.

    We could and we should still have engineering works on a large scale, providing good employment, but London-centric policies and governments focussed on ‘casino’ banking mean that Scotland is never considered, never consulted.

    The consulate here is the ‘English’ consulate; if I die I can be buried in the Cemitério_dos_Ingleses; tv news is hopelessly confused about British, English, UK, England. I doubt that anyone in the consular staff ever bothers to call the broadcasters to set them straight.

    For the love of god, people, please vote for independence at the soonest possible opportunity. It is so fecking tiring having to explain Scotland’s status to people here “yeah I’m Scottish but my passport says British cos Scotland is part of the UK which includes England plus Wales plus the northern bit of Ireland”.

  254. wannabescot says:

    If ‘Agree’ scores the highest percentage every time, isn’t that just ‘I would rather be Independent’ ??? Seems like it to me!

  255. caz-m says:

    test



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