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Wings Over Scotland


The centrifuge

Posted on February 10, 2017 by

Sometimes the word “spin” just isn’t enough to get the reality across.

Ladies and gentlemen, we give you: the Scottish media.

minorexpress

minortimes

minorscotsman

minorguardian

minortelegraph

There’s only one small issue: what the “top EU official” actually said was the exact opposite of “you’ll have to join the euro and get to the back of the queue”.

As ever, once you get past the headlines and halfway through the story – by which time the majority of people have stopped reading – they grudgingly surrender the truth.

Jacqueline Minor in fact said that Scotland could JUMP the (non-existent) queue:

“There are a number of official candidate countries – Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, [but] they are still quite some way away from meeting the criteria for membership. And obviously were Scotland to become independent, they would join that list.

Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.”

(We suspect there might actually be some heavy sarcasm in there, given that as it’s currently in the EU, all of Scotland’s legislation is of course already fully compliant.)

minorbuzzfeed

And she said that in practice it WOULDN’T have to join the Euro:

“All member countries are committed to eventual membership of the euro with the exception of the opt-outs that exist for the UK and Denmark. But there is no stipulated timeline for joining the euro.

Which is the position that the Yes side has been patiently explaining over and over and over for most of the past five years. While member nations have to commit to the THEORETICAL PRINCIPLE of joining the Euro, actually doing it is entirely voluntary, and involves criteria that Scotland doesn’t meet even if it wanted to.

None of that inconvenient detail troubles the Scottish press, of course. “You wouldn’t need to use the Euro and you wouldn’t have to join a queue” becomes “You’d have to join the Euro and get to the back of the queue” in the blink of an eye, because one poll showed a small rise in support for independence on the back of Theresa May’s plans for a hard Brexit, and the first casualty in a Scottish-media emergency is the truth.

(It hardly seems worth mentioning that all this is predicated on Scotland becoming independent AFTER Brexit rather than before, which would change everything.)

To be honest with you, readers, we’re thinking of having a rail put in that we can hold onto when we look in the Scottish press, lest we be suddenly dashed against the wall by the overpowering gravitational force of their dishonesty. We can only hope that someone pushes the red button before too long.

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    1. 10 02 17 09:57

      The centrifuge | speymouth

    486 to “The centrifuge”

    1. norman allan says:

      What queue.

    2. One_Scot says:

      They probably wont change their tune over this any time soon no matter how many times they are told it is balls. Would probably be a good idea if Nicola Sturgeon could close this down at the Spring Conference.

    3. Christopher Whyte says:

      I tweeted good ol’ Tomkins, following his commentary in the Scotsman that I saw this morning. My suspicion is that there’ll be no answer, but we can always hope.

      https://twitter.com/magicalaeon/status/829990879532351488

    4. bobajock says:

      Thanks again Rev, the idiocy of the media, the ‘spin’ is breathtaking.

      Was literally about to ping you – but … you know better, faster.

    5. Doug Daniel says:

      If it was a “queue”, we wouldn’t have had 16 new EU members since Turkey first applied to join in 1987. Severin Carrell and his cronies are either stupid for not knowing this, or they’re intentionally misleading people.

      I think we all know which one it is.

    6. Dunks says:

      Yawn yawn yawn

      How do these people sleep?

    7. Neil says:

      That Guardian article is an abomination

    8. gordoz says:

      Look into the eyes of Kaa !!!

      Now this is wisdom.

      PPPfffff

    9. Gordon says:

      Whatever Ms Minor said or did not say, with all due respect, she is NOT a top EU official. She is heading the EU’s representation office in London, a rather minor (no pun intended) office which reports to the Communications and Press Directorate General in Brussels.

    10. ScotsRenewables says:

      The red button won’t work. Hope Nicola has a secret weapon up her sleeve.

    11. Alasdair Macdonald says:

      Last week, on Channel 4 News there was an interview which involved Ms Mhairi Black MP and a pastor of an American evangelical church, who was also a supporter of President Trump. After Ms Black had set out her points, the pastor responded by saying, “You are basing your opinion on the WRONG FACTS (my emphasis)”. This brought home to me the reality of what is called ‘post truth’. Facts clearly have a new meaning – not the verifiable nearest approximation to the truth, but whatever I need them to be to support my assertion.

      I think that these articles exemplify that.

      Unfortunately, there are still many pretty intelligent people who cling on to that position to sustain their opposition to independence.

    12. gordoz says:

      The wummin not eatin’ the saltire was very clear on Scotland tonight last night.

      Fair, but very clear when pushed. Along the lines of Stu’s points above.

      But you know the press in Scotchland “A lie can travel halfway round the world while the truth is putting on its shoes”
      Mark Twain

    13. Valerie says:

      Buzzfeed – EU officials looking at fast track for Scotland

      http://archive.is/MPbn2

    14. Brian Taylor’s pals every week blabbing on post FMQ ‘Sev’ Lindsay and Simon.
      I commented over on Bateman on today’s BBC Breakfast News Where You Are on what should have been a good news story on funding for EU University students even after Brexit. Instead a negative spin about Swinney delaying announcement of the scheme ,written presumably by Alan Rodden, was mouthed verbatim to us bleary eyed Scots.
      They are at the starting blocks.SNP are the baddest dudes who ever trod this planet.
      Total readership of these English Dead Tree Scrolls in Scotland? In the tens of thousands?
      Ooft.

    15. Jim says:

      Inside the first page of the sun today:

      Nats fail our kids
      Schools Rap 1

      Wall build blunders
      Schools rap 2.

      Obviously the first story concerns the SNP because education is in their hands.

      The schools rap 1 & 2 link the stories and give the impression that the SNP is also responsible for the collapse at Oxgangs school and mentions five collapses in total with not a mention that it was a Slabour administration that was responsible for the pfi debacle.

      How in God’s name can we combat such blatant mistruths.

    16. Ken500 says:

      They are off again. This time the lies will not be believed. Long noses.

      In or out of the EU Scotland is better Independent.

      No more illegal wars, banking fraud or tax evasion. In April the Scottish Gov can stop illegal sanctions of vulnerable people. NHS/Education protected. Thank goodness for the SNP Gov. May 2017 Elections.

      Another IndyRef within two years. Building up the Scottish economy. The ‘Press’ creating their own demise. Good riddance.

      With Brexit the Tories will be gone leaving their mess behind them. They are deplorable. The other unionists are no better. People voted to stay in the EU. Look what’s happened?

    17. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      I think I’ve said it before

      the lies that the unionists spin are so dense, they bend the light so that truth cannot escape.

      Beware

    18. FatCandy says:

      This example of media misinformation is exactly why the issue of independence should be decided on democratically by our representatives in the Scottish Parliament and not by a plebiscite.

      The people are simply not getting the facts to make an informed choice. It doesn’t matter if the Yes camp have been repeating the fact of Scotland’s position with regards to the EU for the last 5 years, all the largest demographic in Scotland sees in the papers is that we can’t get membership and they vote No accordingly.

    19. cal says:

      The Express, Times, Guardian and Telegraph are
      not the Scottish media. Wings Over Scotland is part of the Scottish media. QED

    20. One_Scot says:

      The thing is, the politically aware types will know this is nothing more than biased unionist media lies, but the majority of day to day Scots will not.

      The SNP really have to get cast iron EU membership facts regarding IndyRef2 as soon as possible, as not doing so may well erode support for a Yes vote.

    21. Andrea says:

      I have never listened to what anyone states as 99% of the time it’s all scare mongering, I will always try to go to sources that have been truthful with their stories by going to those or the sources themselves. Scotland can & should get away from this neo fascist WM & it’s play things of media/journalism or we’ll be pushed to the point of no return.

    22. scotsbob says:

      Love the headline from the Express. “Brussels says join the queue” Giving the false impression that the EU has made a ruling.

    23. Proud Cybernat says:

      Telling the dumb readers who read these trash *ahem* ‘newspapers’ just what they want to hear. Confirmation bias running rampant.

      Idiots.

      Deserting the sinking ship…

      http://imgur.com/a/lSkAc

    24. Mearnsgeek says:

      It’s ridiculous yet frustrating.

      There will be a bunch of people that are potentially swayable to Yes who won’t read past the headlines to find the truth or bother finding out via other news sources.

    25. Shug says:

      And the BBC

      What do they say or do they just report the paper headlines

      Come on Kaye I am listening will I hear a spot of truth for a change?

      Not holding my breath

    26. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T yet another Political Poll this morning folks there coming thick n fast! This ones been done.by somebody that knows how to extract information like no other eh Rev?

    27. HandandShrimp says:

      I seem to recall that a certain President stood up and said unequivocally that the UK would go to the back of the trade deal queue. The same papers foamed at the mouth at that saying it was EU lies. They can’t have their cake and eat it.

      Real Politik is what matters..something the EU excels at and something that the Yoon papers are a complete joke at.

    28. Roboscot says:

      It’s essential that if we have another indyref the EU make it explicitly clear, from the highest authority and in a way that cannot be misrepresented, that Scotland would not have to leave the EU and rejoin if we choose independence before Brexit happens. It should also be made explicitly clear that we will not need to join the euro.

    29. desimond says:

      Latest report now in

      Ming The Merciless confirms the Universe Overseer Committee would need to validate Scotlands application to be in the Milky Way and they have no expectations of meeting anytime soon.

      In other news, During the opening of a new Clone Boot Camp in Kent, Emperor Palpatine laughed off Scotlands chances of Federation recognition.

    30. Thomas says:

      I for one am sick to back teeth of this constant, anti-independence shite coming form MSM there all at it. DO they ever give up ? I feel sick to my stomach seeing this constant barrage of bullshit.

      Please for the love of god give me one unbiased and truthful news story just f*ck*ng one Please ? is that too much to ask ?

    31. galamcennalath says:

      And today’s big news story is …. the fakenewspapers print fake news, again.

      And The Rev debunks it as usual.

      They all run with the same lie. Is it plagiarism or orchestrated?

    32. James Barr Gardner says:

      The BUM newspapers are now at the tipping point all rational behaviour by them is now gone.

      In the words of the 2 Painter Guys from Chewin the Fat talking about pebble dashing…You’ve taken that too far!

    33. Bob MACK says:

      Spin ? Rev, this is worthy of the Swiss Hadron Collider. Split the story and salvage the bits you want to keep. Get rid of the rest.

      Time to break up the UK methinks.

    34. Training Day says:

      I agree increasingly with Fat Candy above. Can we honestly say we are in any better position to win a referendum than in 2014 in the face of a blatant, omnipresent miasma of lies and misinformation, an example of which we see in this article. It’s co-ordinated, it’s pernicious, it’s uniform – let’s call it what it is, colonial fascism – and it ain’t stopping any time soon.

      Throw in a British state broadcaster and a Union-facing STV and facts in any referendum campaign will be lesser-spotted than a brain cell in the Cochrane household. And I haven’t even mentioned the Electoral Commission and postal voting.

      Our representatives may need to act in order to save Scotland. That seems increasingly clear.

    35. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah seen it wie ma ain ears and heard it wie ma ain eyes what Jacqueline Minor said & ah hiv ah witness anaw , ah wiz oan the phone tae BDTT at the time.

      Ah might take up Churnalism , its money fur any auld shite & as you’s can see from ma 1st sentence ah write good shite , nae need tae see it & nae need tae hear it , engage the nose an you’s kin smell it.

      Its nae wonder prince charlie’s kin sell bags of shite fur about £ 3/4 ah bag.

      Onward onward my Friends to see the whites of they’re eyes
      the dullness of soul there within
      whilst ours are shining bright ever aglow.

    36. Marker Post says:

      I think the clue to these stories all appearing on the same day is the fact that Ruthie has been in No. 10 this week “strategising” how to respond to the latest polls.

    37. Phronesis says:

      As Gray argues to subject ‘the unfathomable complexity of human lives to the deadly simplicity of a scientific formula’ is dangerous but in the case of Indyref 2 I’m sure he’d make an exception.

      https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/15/society

      Whatever your socio-cultural belief system, sexual orientation, religious or atheist stance, skin tone, age group, position on the political spectrum, income bracket and view of Scotland’s place in Europe- let’s keep it formulaic.

      Voting for Scotland’s parties of independence = real democracy in Scotland.

    38. Clootie says:

      …never mind. Better Together 2 will save a great deal of money on their campaign material…it will be just a date change.

    39. Proud Cybernat says:

      The problem the #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters have with their present attempt to discredit internet news sources is that it is utterly doomed to fail. You see, the thing about ‘internet news’ is that it can be cross-checked and verified in seconds and can be done so through numerous independent sources. Indeed, we can do the very same thing with the #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters and, more often than not, the #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters are found to be exactly what we believe them to be i.e. #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters

      The #fakenewspapers are owned by a handful of people intent on control of the news in order to control the thoughts and actions of the masses. They seem to think we don’t know that.

      The #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters are owned by idiots who can’t see they have lost control of the news; we no longer believe in their mince.

    40. Kirrireoch says:

      It´s this kind of reporting which makes me despair. Read the headlines and then what was really said.

      This is the worst for a wee while though. I live in central Europe now and all my family still live in Scotland. They were evenly divided between wanting to vote “leave” or “remain” in the EU referendum but most ended up voting “remain” partly because of how I could highlight what the EU is and how it works etc and also because they appreciated I could be affected by a “leave” vote.

      The kind of “reports” in the Guardian etc will only mean I have the relatives who would have voted “leave” saying “See, the EU doesn´t give a f*** about Scotland. Stick with the UK,” and some who would have always voted “remain” to mistrust the EU as much as, or more than, the UK.

      The media campaign to target the “Remain (in the EU)/soft “No”/potential “Yes” (to Scottish independence)” voters is now underway so as to convince them that “the EU is bad, stick with the UK.

    41. winifred mccartney says:

      Not a word on BBC tv or radio about scotland having best performing A&E, not a mention of labours involvement at Council and Govt level in the Edinburgh Schools disgrace, it is called lying by ommission. That along with the running order of the news tells me the bbc is doing everything it can to run down Scotland and the SNP and that indyref2 has begun and as many on here have said it will get worse.

    42. orri says:

      A list is not a queue

      In computing terms

      https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Queue-and-List

      It’s not a fucking FIFO

    43. Like a Rumplestiltskin from an Alt-Yooniverse spinning gold into shit. Desperate stuff.

    44. Doug Daniel says:
      10 February, 2017 at 9:55 am
      “If it was a “queue”, we wouldn’t have had 16 new EU members since Turkey first applied to join in 1987. Severin Carrell and his cronies are either stupid for not knowing this, or they’re intentionally misleading people.

      I think we all know which one it is.”

      All of the above.

    45. Jimbo says:

      I wonder how many EU officials the Brit press for sale in Scotland had to trawl through before they came up with one who said something close enough to what they wanted to twist?

    46. HandandShrimp says:

      I think there will be a referendum call and I think the EU will make encouraging statements once Article 50 is triggered and we are going for independence/EU membership.

      Stand by your beds for full frontal deranged hatred of the EU/Juncker/Merkel/anyone pro Scotland. These same journalist and papers will go into a tail spin of fury if they perceive that the EU is skewing the vote in favour of independence.

      I shall smile quietly to myself 🙂

    47. Proud Cybernat says:

      Oh, and a word to Richard Walker who recently defended the peddlers of this mince – we do not accept fake news from #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters. And neither should you. Stop defending this Mr Walker.

    48. Dr Jim says:

      When you inform the uninformed they’re being duped they only hear “Are you calling me stupid” the media knows that so they tailor their news to the….

      More accessible mind?

    49. heedtracker says:

      Tricky dicky use of words though. Would you rather be in a queue or on a list? Get to the back of the list bad Scotland clearly doesn’t work.

      Well this is why they’re often called wordsmiths and lying gits ofcourse.

      Bet the biggest whopper teller, is Graun’s gimp.

    50. galamcennalath says:

      Day after day. All this propaganda, spin, lies, fearmongering, and the inevitable false promises …. what do the Yoons hope to achieve?

      Too many Scots have had their eyes opened to reality and ain’t going back in their wee box. Scotland will be independent, it’s when, not if. That’s what it feels like.

      So their plan can only be to delay the inevitable?

      IndyRef2 is inevitable, and probably very soon. They will try to sabotage or delay it. Then they will try to win by subterfuge, again.

      Then what, if they do? We ain’t going away. Well, there may be a medium term strategy as well where WM will scorch earth Scotland soon to make it extremely difficult to try a third time!

      If they get ‘caught out’ and are forced to fight a second IndyRef, and they win, they will try to make sure it doesn’t happen again!

    51. heedtracker says:

      Yup, Graun puts the UKOK boot in,

      Her remarks fueled a fresh spat between Labour and the SNP, after Scottish Labour’s Europe spokesman Lewis Macdonald said Minor had meant an independent Scotland would need to join the queue behind the four existing candidates.

      “As the SNP was repeatedly told during the referendum campaign, an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU like any other country,” Macdonald said.

      “Alex Salmond tried to dismiss this, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Now it’s time for the SNP to be honest with voters – an independent Scotland would have to join the queue.”

      Despite all the evidence to the contrary, is nae bad from Severin hammer of the Scots.

    52. Lenny Hartley says:

      Training day, we are in a far better position than the start of Indy ref 1, starting with support over 20% higher, all the scare stories have been proved as that, Brexit and be not in doubt that this time Europe will be on our side, whether it’s for retaining our membership or the EFTA/Eea option.

      Speaking to a few noes and they still believe the rubbish that we would not get into Europe, that is why the MSM is pushing every tenuous link to that angle. However I’m very positive that behind the scenes plans are afoot to debunk these scare stories. Off course even if they were true, this time even being in the so called queue is better than not being in it at all.

    53. Angus MacAlister says:

      As others have said this will be crucial come the referendum in 2018. The Scottish Government should be discussing guaranteed membership as an independent nation with the EU now so that is integral to the overall package that will define what independence will mean. After all being dragged out of the EU is what has brought us to this juncture. All no voters I have spoken to have said staying in the EU is what will lead them to vote yes.

    54. DerekM says:

      No that is what you call throwing a blanket over it and hope that it goes away.

      It has already got the real thicko yoon howlers out shouting in a queue use the euro.

      I like to remind them its not the EU we plan to leave but the UK,for some reason that never goes down well lol

    55. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      the thing about ‘internet news’ is that it can be cross-checked and verified in seconds and can be done so through numerous independent sources.

      Indeed. It’s a fundamental ‘badge of quality’ when you read an article online which refers to information from elsewhere, is that there are links to sources.

      Anything without referencing is just opinion and should be suspect.

      Obviously if there are no references, it takes 10secs on google to find the source! But it begs the question, if you quote a report somewhere and have no link to that report, why not? What are you playing at?

      The Rev always ‘does it properly’. So do most Indy sites.

      This is certainly one way to get the upper hand on purveyors of fake news, always reference sources because they can’t or their fakery become apparent!

    56. Scott Shaw says:

      After reading the Buzzfeed article is anyone else noticing EU officials increasingly referring to Scotland as a country in its own right and not part of greater England as the tories et al’ seem to think?

    57. Dr Jim says:

      I’d like to see a joint party political broadcast with Nicola Sturgeon Patrick Harvie and other prominant Yes supporters repeating what they told us would happen in 2014 with a No vote
      Then showing the results of what a No vote has actually delivered and is delivering and make it as stark as possible

      The No side won because of doom mongering and then the Vow of good things to come, which didn’t

      The newspapers won’t print the truth and the telly won’t report it so I’m happy to chip in my moneys worth to pay for it FM…. as much as I can afford , and then some more

    58. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pumM9jcVTqM&app=desktop

      A blast from the past but it just goes to show how expendable other Nationalities of these sceptre’d isle are .

      Please Share as it will come to pass, a all Ireland.

    59. Proud Cybernat says:

      YES were heading to victory in IndyRef#1 IN SPITE of us having been told by the #fakenewspapers and #fakebroadcasters that we’d be out of the EU. At this point a majority of Scots didn’t care about the EU scare stories from the #fakenewspapers and #fakebroadcasters. There were some, at this point, who probably DID believe the #fakenewspapers and #fakebroadcasters and thus kept the YES lead down to just 1-3% (Downing Street’s secret poll apparently YES were in the lead by 3%).

      Panic stations in London and all hell broke loose. And then came the VOW and the Devo-Max/Federalism/More Powers promises. The VOW is what swung it back for NO – not Scotland being chucked out of the EU.

      So – next time NO voters. Whent hey promise us all the new powers and that Holyrood will become the most powerfullest parliament this side of the known omniverse and can never be abolished, ask yourself a question: “What happened to those very same promise last time?”

      And then you’ll have your answer and you will know where to place that X on your IndyRef2 ballot paper. Fool me once and all that.

      So, to the Yoon colonial media – keep it up. Yer EU scare stories only helped keep the YES lead last time down to around 3%. It won’t work THIS time and neither will yer VOW2.

    60. Tony Little says:

      @galamcennalath

      What does the Corporate Media hope to achieve? To my mind it is to hang on the those who only get their information via the BBC and the CM. They will be the hardest to enlighten as they are not easily open to alternative views.

      I know many over-60s voted Yes (I am one myself) but I also note that the demographics Yes:No for the 65+ and something like 30:70 and this group ARE ones who do vote. This is who this misinformation is aimed at.

      I don’t know how to manage it, but for IndyRef2 the Scottish Government (i.e. not just the SNP) need to get International observers on board immediately as part of their brief is to examine how the media is presenting the arguments on both sides and to ensure their is equanimity.

      This will be an even dirtier fight than last time. The Establishment now realise how close they came to losing their cash-cow and won’t be afraid to employ ALL their tricks. History tells us clearly how agent provocateurs and ‘Black Ops’ have been used in the past.

    61. carjamtic says:

      For a very ugly moment there,I thought I saw a kipper with a big asshole sign on his lapel, firing one off,to an old painting of Sid James.

      Guess not, think I’ll stick to the more realistic,’carry on’ films.

      ;-/

    62. Vestas says:

      The EU can’t say anything about Scotland in the EU because A50 hasn’t been triggered yet. For the moment Scotland is part of an existing member state sonothing official will be said.

      After A50 is triggered AND indyref2 is scheduled I’m pretty sure that a lot of EU people who are currently biting their tongues will make matters crystal clear.

      My thoughts are that the EU wants to discourage other countries from leaving the EU and there’s two ways they could do this :

      1) Tell the UK to fuck off, no access to single market, no passporting for financial services. The UK will be a basketcase inside 5 years. However what’s often not understood is how much Euro funding flows through London & the EU states won’t want it shut down immediately as that’d make the last Euro debt crisis look like a party. No doubt at all that in the medium term financial services will move but can’t be done immediately without a lot of damage on both sides;

      2) Punish the UK as much as possible without adversely affecting their own economies. Encourage an independent Scotland by making it clear they would get immediate membership of the EU following a successful indyref2.

      The second way means that the EU retains Scottish resources within the economic block while depriving England of them, hence making the English economic bargaining position weaker. They can also point other eurosceptic countries at this example – “leave & your country might break up, you willing to chance that?”

      Sooner or later someone senior in the EU Commission will say something ON the record. At that point the yoons will need a black hole to generate enough spin 🙂

    63. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      O/T somewhat, but a prime example of Propaganda by omission:

      I see that EDF who’re involved in the Hinckley Point new Nuclear Power Station have had a fire at their Flamanville Nuclear Power Station in North West France.

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-nuclear-flamanville-idUKKBN15O14P?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

      “Fire at French nuclear power plant takes reactor off grid, operator says no associated nuclear risk” says Reuters.”

      “A fire caused an explosion at the Flamanville nuclear power plant in northwest France on Thursday, leading the operator EDF to take a reactor offline, but there was no risk to the reactor, EDF and a local official said on Thursday.”

      “The state-owned firm said a fire in the turbine hall caused the explosion in a “non-nuclear” part of the power station.”

      Funny how BBC aren’t reporting this news this morning. What with the link to Hinckley and Flamanville being 17 miles from Cherbourg, 105 miles from Bournemouth.

      Could it be that the outrage or uncertainty might scupper Hinkley Point right at the point that England’s Energy security is at an all time low.

      And that’s before Scotland leaves the ‘Glorious Union’ and starts getting a fair market rate for the Electricity exported South of the Border, the full revenue for her hydrocarbons and full control of Energy Policy.

      I’m debating buying shares in a candle factory as demand will spike post Brexit and post iScotland 🙂

    64. Lochside says:

      Surely it’s time that the SNP publicly and loudly stated the bleeding obvious : Yes the UK is currently leaving the EU.But if we dissolve the UK before that final exit.Then Scotland has a right to stay as a remaining member and Angerland can disappear into its own imperial sunset. The Act of Union 1707 is selfexplanatory..we are a double act not a unitary state, whether the colonial media like it or not ,and Scotland can stop the crap UK end of the pier show with Independence and keep the status quo for our citizens and laws under the EU.

    65. Derick fae Yell says:

      There is of course a very simple, straightforward answer to all this tosh about the EU, Spainish veto, ‘Queues’ blah blah ad nauseum

      Which is that we will maintain seamless single market access via EFTA/EEA and then have a post independence vote on joining the EU. Just as Austria, Finland and Sweden did.

      The answer to the EU scare stories is: “so what!”

    66. galamcennalath says:

      Vestas says:

      After A50 is triggered AND indyref2 is scheduled I’m pretty sure that a lot of EU people who are currently biting their tongues will make matters crystal clear.

      That’s what I believe.

      EU retains Scottish resources within the economic block while depriving England of them, hence making the English economic bargaining position weaker.

      Yes, definitely. It’s a win-win for the EU.

      Firstly they keep the ‘best bit’ of the UK within the EU.

      Secondly, they can be less severe with the trade/access deal in the punishment of rUK for compromising EU integrity and security. Less disruption helps helps EU companies and makes solutions for the borders in Ireland and Gibraltar (and iScotland) simpler.

      From a Scottish perspective, we need IndyRef2 well before Brexit. We also want the internal constitutional debate well and truly intertwined with the external one!

    67. Vestas says:

      @ Jockanese Wind Talker 12:07pm

      The plant concerned in Flamanville is NOT the new design which is proposed for Hinckley Point. It is (AIUI) a 30 year old reactor plant which is scheduled for closure soon anyway. The French grid can cope anyway – they have about 20% of their reactors offline at the moment (safety tests) and the demand/supply can be seen here – http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/

      FYI : The French have now set an upper limit on the percentage of nuclear generated electricity so they will be closing plants early anyway over the next 20 years. This is to try to stimulate their “renewables” generation which has struggled to compete with nuclear. France is blessed with wind, solar, hydro & tidal resources which have been fairly neglected until now.

    68. Luigi says:

      The level of dishonesty in the yoon press is quite astounding. It shows how desperate things have become for them. The trouble with rearguard actions (with no other options available) is that defeat is inevitable.

      However……..The big problem is that the slow retreat of the yoons can go on for another decade before we finally break through. Most of the 65+ age group (and quite a few younger uns as well) still rely on the MSM (printed press, ITV, BBC) for their information about what is going on in the world.

      We will struggle to convince many of these folk (the yoon ID is strong in them) to cross over to YES, but we really have to try, since even a small gain may be crucial. With MSM about to go into overload (you ain’t seen nothing yet), there are only two ways IMO we can tackle this – difficult but potentially very effective if we work hard at them:

      1. Doorstep campaigning – target old voters.

      2. Another wee book for non-social media users, challenging the fake news spewed out by the MSM. Some simple, classic examples of what was said and what actually happened, would be highly informative. Every lying news source could be held to account through one or two carefully chosen examples. Knock their belief system and they may become (slightly) more open to persuasion.

      We need to get our foot jammed in that door somehow. Once they realise what the MSM really does, perhaps at least some of them will look for other explanations.

      Och I’m sure that smarter folk than me are already working on it. 🙂

    69. Dave Hansell says:

      Are there not plans afoot to set up some body, commission or whatever to look into how to tackle these fake news sites?

      Also, are the Web sites of these fake news outlets supposed to be being blocked by the likes of Google, Facebook, Twitter etc?

    70. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      That’s not the point I’m making @Vestas says at 12:23 pm

      “The plant concerned in Flamanville is NOT the new design which is proposed for Hinckley Point.”

      What I’m saying is why isn’t it being reported on BBC?

      Remember Fukoshima etc. big news but a fire at a nuclear power station this close to the UK and not a peep on the TV.

      Don’t you find that strange?

    71. galamcennalath says:

      Dave Hansell says:

      …. are the Web sites of these fake news outlets supposed to be being blocked by the likes of Google, Facebook, Twitter etc?

      Well, the Mail and Express have been allegedly banned by Wikipedia. It would be nice to think that is the writing on the wall!

    72. liz says:

      Re fake news and the point.
      They are targeting the ones who were scared in the first indy ref, specifically older women.

      I fall into that category and a few folk on twitter yesterday were getting upset when this was pointed out – folk shouldn’t take offence.

      All those older folk who voted Yes should be very proud of themselves as they went against the grain.

      Their is a ramping up of the blatant propaganda including that ridiculous pathetic anti-EU prog on BBC 2 last night, it was a travesty.

      The fact that the EU are willing to fast track us, is cos they know we are pro EU, we have vast resources and they are under increasing threat from the NWO.
      Guy Verhofstadt was talking about an increasingly cohesive strong EU would be need for world stability and I agree

    73. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I mean on the 9th July 2015 BBC reported on TV and online:

      “A weakness has been discovered in a French nuclear reactor of the type set to be built at Hinkley in the UK.

      France’s nuclear safety regulator told the BBC the flaw in the steel housing the reactor core at the nuclear plant being built in Normandy is “serious”.

      He added that unless he was satisfied with the plans to put it right, he could stop the project.

      The fault in the French reactor is thought to be a construction fault, not an inherent weakness in the design.

      The troubled European Pressurised Reactor (EPR) under construction in France is one of the standard bearers for the next generation of nuclear power plants.

      It is of the same design as that planned for Hinkley C in Somerset and its collapse would deliver a major blow to the so called nuclear renaissance.”

      Why no headline news now??

      Is it because of potential scuppering of energy supply and foreign investment???

    74. heedtracker says:

      Unified opposition, two days ago at least. Gruesome threesomes. Wonder who writes the Cons tweets.

      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
      ScotConservatives ?@ScotTories Feb 7
      More
      The SNP promised education would be their priority. Instead, all they want to do is use Brexit to stir grievance.

      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
      Willie Rennie ?@willie_rennie Feb 8

      Willie Rennie Retweeted Duncan Hothersall
      Well said DuncanWillie Rennie added,

      Duncan Hothersall @dhothersall
      Spare me the “You should support independence because of Brexit, Duncan”. You’re like medieval quacks, treating every ailment with leeches.
      17 replies

    75. galamcennalath says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker
      @Vestas

      Google searched for

      Flamanville site:bbc.co.uk

      … filtered to last 24hours. Only mention is a small one here ….

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-jersey-38844499

    76. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      There is of course a very simple, straightforward answer to all this tosh about the EU, Spainish veto, ‘Queues’ blah blah ad nauseum

      Which is that we will maintain seamless single market access via EFTA/EEA and then have a post independence vote on joining the EU.

      CORRECT

      Also,
      EFTA/EEA countries like Norway and Iceland are NOT EU members and Scotland wouldnt be either. No EU membership application, no commitment to adopt the euro required

      we would need agreement from only the 4 efta countries to join efta
      and if we apply to remain in the eea via article 50 and not the article 49 mentioned by Jacqueline Minor, we would need all 27 EU members to agree, only a majority

      the euref2 could take place in the first term of the new and independent Holyrood session, and whether or not we join the eu will no longer be any of the uk media’s business

    77. Brian Powell says:

      Seeing all the comments from the EU, and Germany, on the process for Scotland in the EU reminds me of this story.

      A man desperately wants to win the lottery. He’s religious so he prays fervently to God, saying, ‘Please God let me win the lottery, I will use the money for good works and contribute to the church’. He repeats his prayer each week, week after week.

      Eventually God appears to him and says, ‘Look I appreciate how you pray to me and all the good things you say you will do,I would like to help you, but, you know, you’ve got to meet me half way. You’ve got to buy a ticket.’

      Scotland voted to stay in the EU and the EU says we want to help, but you need to be an independent country.

    78. Vestas says:

      @ Jockanese Wind Talker 12:38pm :

      “What I’m saying is why isn’t it being reported on BBC?

      Remember Fukoshima etc. big news but a fire at a nuclear power station this close to the UK and not a peep on the TV.

      Don’t you find that strange?”

      No I don’t.

      The BBC rarely reports on French reactors & the fire you’re referring to here was a ventilation fan jamming and catching fire. The fan in question wasn’t going to cause any sort of “nuclear incident” as its in the turbine room – it could (and may) however have caused a shitload of damage to the generators in that room. No point in having a reactor running when your turbines (generators) have probably taken some damage, hence the shutdown.

      Its nothing like Fukoshima 🙂

    79. Auld Rock says:

      Can’t remember the EU telling East & West Germany to join the ‘Q’ which if I remember was quite long at that time. Presently I only know of three countries waiting and two of the three are already part of EU and third country has a long way to go to get many domestic matters in order. Being the old cynic that I am I suspect that our imperial grey-suits will have a secret deal with Spain, we bloke Catalonia, Spain blokes Scotland. Aye let’s see Maay getting away with this without TROUBLES.

      Auld Rock

    80. Artyhetty says:

      These rags are obsessed with telling lies about Scotland. Some people take their lies as gospel, Hallelujah! It is quite obvious by the blanket headlines today that they are terrified because so many people have seen the light,;-)and seen through the con they called the vow last time. Not only that, but for instance my Graun reading, though intelligent friends in Northumberland who ridiculed Scotland as ‘far too insignificant in the world, do you think anyone is bothered about Scotland?’ in 2014, now know that this is absolute rubbish.

      These rags are advertising on their front pages the fact that Scotland very much matters, and that in fact it is all too real that Scotland actually just might be saying, ‘bye bye silly, backward, pathetic UK’. We are on a different path, we will not be dragged down anymore, and that is why we sent 56 of our democratically elected SNP Representatives down to your parliament and yet you show utter contempt for Scotland’s people. No thanks, we will take our chances with the EU, and we know that in fact the EU27 will welcome Scotland with open arms.

      The unionists are also as we know, running scared because they know that the EU27 have had their eyes opened to just how the UK has operated for a very long time, and it ain’t attractive,

      Panic stations in London, they really are showing how scared they are of losing their gravy train. Tough, you voted for brexit, your bed, you bloody well lie in it!

    81. Capella says:

      Sigh. This will go on and on and on till we vote YES.
      Sick of BREXIT? Sick of Fakenews lies and deception?
      Vote YES and never hear from those fraudsters again.

      Imagine how it must be in normal countries where they can just get on with running things without this constant distraction, wailing and gnashing of teeth, pompous warnings and threats. The waste of time, energy and resources which are directed to sustaining this unequal union is obscene.

    82. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Fair enough @ Vestas says at 12:51 pm

      I do find it strange, especially as the media love a “what if this scenario” story to pad out bulletins.

      I stand corrected. 🙂

    83. orri says:

      If the research carried out after the last referendum is correct then the balance of votes cast by EU nationals last time was No. In all probability the balance would be Yes and more of them would vote. Obviously it’s in the unionists best interests, assuming the actually get a decent deal, to delay the next referendum until after those potential Yes voters are no longer part of the electorate.

    84. nodrog says:

      Related but O/T
      I watched tweedledum and tweedledee (that’s the leader of the RED Tories and the leader of the BLUE Tories)at FMQ yesterday coordinating their questioning of the First Minister about SNHS issues. Struck me as rather suspicious that on the very day the English NHS was being trashed by the media our RED and BLUE tories should quiz the FM about SNHS. Methinks they were preinformed and wished to dilute the effect of the media stating that results were better in Scotland. We can’t have people thinking that now – can we?
      This is not the first time Tweedledum and Tweedledee have coordinated their questions.

    85. Why don’t the S.N.P. Issue a statement denying the all these lies about schools built by labour being blamed on them why not sue the sun for lying by omission and inuenda it’s as simple as that

    86. joannie says:

      As long as Scotland is willing to accept Freedom of Movement it doesn’t matter if there’s a bit of a wait for full EU membership anyway because Scotland could still be in the single market while you’re waiting.

      So even if there nonsense story was true, it wouldn’t be much of a threat.

    87. nodrog says:

      Sorry it was education not SNHS. But my point was the increasingly coordinated approach by the RED and BLUE Tories.

    88. Earlier on Bateman’s excellent lampoon, I posted the following bits. I make no apology for repeating them here.
      They have started already.

      “Just out of curiosity, as my black pudding slowly grills, I popped online. The Herald Scotland, owned by a US based Big Beast Newsquest headlines today:-

      “Nursing Body predicts cuts will cause NHS Care crisis!”
      (That would be Frank the Pieman’s Tony Blair New Labour Administration doing the ‘savings’. Blocks out the disaster happening Down South to our Better Together ‘equal partners’. We don’t need to bother about the News that’s happening there. It is not the same news that’s happening here.)

      “Top European Official Adds to Doubts over Sturgeon’s Brexit Plan.’
      (‘Top’ official, mind. ‘Sturgeon’s Brexit Plan. Nobody else’s plan. Just that wee bassa Sturgeon’s.)

      “Video: Michelle Mone breaks silence over £1M fake tan firm that’s worth £25k.’
      (Any excuse for this former ‘quality paper’ to show off Ms Mone’s considerable talents, plus a couple of lassies in bikinis. ‘Breaks wind’, rather than ‘breaks silence’. I smell the usual shite. Does this ladies underwear peddler have a ‘special relationship’ with someone on HS payroll? Or is she just bums and tits clickbait, and a Scotland hater?)

      ‘Crown drops case against SNP donor accused of assault.’
      (‘Drops case’, not ‘no case to answer.’ No smoke without fire’ logic.)

      And making number 7 on their most read list:-

      ‘Student filmed burning £20 note in front of homeless person is not ‘direct’ relation of Nicola Sturgeon, says Government.’
      (‘Direct’ in parenthesis. So therefore ‘indirect’ relation? No he’s not, He’s a member of the Cambridge University Conservative Association, a posh Tory Boy. One of Ruth’s lot.
      It is not only the ‘Government’ which ‘says.’ he’s not remotely related to the Sturge. It’s the rest of us. Malicious wee attack on this lady yet again.)

      Black pudding ready! Keep taking to the tablet, Derek.”

      And…

      “The de’il maks work for idle hands, richt enough.
      This from the 2 3/4 minutes ‘Scottish’ News where we are wedged into BBC Breakfast’s 3 1/4 hours of English hegemony today.

      “Labour claim the Education Secretary kept EU students in the dark about their funding so that he could make an announcement at the SNP’s Autumn Conference.
      EU students who enrolled for the 2017-2018 academic year will have their fees paid even after Brexit.
      Labour say John Swinney twice rejected the idea of an earlier announcement.
      The Scottish Government said it is entirely routine to ensure that those most affected by the policy have the most chance of becoming aware of it.’

      Presumably this piece of pointless bitchiness in the first part of this ‘news’ item was written by either Ex Daily Mail Editor, and now Kezia’s Communications Director, Alan Roden, or perhaps, ex schoolmaster and sub sandwich dodger Iain Gray?
      That would be the anonymous ‘Labour’ referred to twice in this piece of nonsense.
      BBC Pacific Quay, conduit for any rubbish the Unionists, particularly the Labour dying flies come up with?
      The REAL News, the fantastic news, is despite Brexit, despite Ruth Davidson banning EU students from English Universities, we Scots will continue with our excellent international Education policy, and reap the rich rewards that it brings.
      Who at Pacific Quay decided to release this crap as news?
      Off now, for a while, promise.
      The black puddin’ was delicious, although, ‘Labour’ may ‘claim’ otherwise.”

    89. scottieDog says:

      We’re already in the feckin EU.
      Totally different from all the other countries on the list
      I too prefer efta and the way thing are going greece maybe becoming a currency issuing syate again by taking back the drachma which will help it transform it’s economy.
      Troika isn’t covering itself in glory

    90. Vestas says:

      @ Jockanese Wind Talker 1:07pm

      Don’t get me wrong matey the French have had their share of nuclear plant problems, but the UK has had worse incidents, many of which are still under 30/50-year rules of secrecy.

      My father in law worked at Windscale/Sellafield (QA/Safety, physics graduate) and all he’d say was “they better not build any more of these”. A LOT more shit went into the sea than was ever admitted – Dounreay is a lot worse than that.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France#Accidents_and_incidents

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_Kingdom#Accidents

      The UK entry is … somewhat lacking 😉

      Also the French are retiring reactors early, rather than relying on (IHMO) dubious analysis to justify extending plant life WAY beyond operational lifespan.

      tl;dr I’d rather have a French regulated nuclear plant than a Brit regulated one 🙂

    91. joannie says:

      @scottie dog, going back to the drachma at this stage would make Greece’s problems worse. The Greeks know it too which is why there’s no support for the idea in Greece. What the Greeks need is debt relief, and sooner or later their creditors will have to face up to that fact.

    92. Arbroath1320 says:

      Here’s just a wee bit of info for anyone “discussing” Scotland HAVING to join the euro. 😉

      As things stand at the moment out of the, still, 28 member countries of the E.U. there are 9 countries that do NOT use the Euro. These countries are:

      Bulgaria joined the E.U. in 2007
      Croatia joined the E.U. in 2013
      Czech Republic joined the E.U. in 2004
      Denmark joined the E.U. in 1973
      Hungary joined the E.U. in 2004
      Poland joined the E.U. in 2004
      Romania joined the E.U. in 2007
      Sweden joined the E.U. in 1995
      U.K. joined the E.U. in 1973

      Of these nine countries only two, Denmark and U.K., have special “deals” that allow them to not have a requirement to join the Euro. However in order to join the euro certain ERM II (Exchange Rate Mechanism Criteria II) must first be met and sustained for, I believe, a two year period.

      The first link below shows the 28 member countries of the E.U. and when their date of joining.

      The second link is, in my view, a good piece about Scotland and the Euro by Autonomy Scotland which includes the five criteria used as benchmarks that must be met before joining the Euro.

      I have included a third link that goes some way to explaining why countries may not have decided to join the Euro. At the end of the day joining the Euro is a VOLUNTARY decision made by each individual country and can only be made AFTER it has met all the qualifying criteria for the specified amount of time. If at any point during the two year qualifying period a country fails to maintain all the criteria then it will have to revert to the beginning of another two year qualifying period.

      https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/intro/html/map.en.html

      https://www.autonomyscotland.org/why-an-independent-scotland-wouldnt-have-to-adopt-the-euro/

      http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/050515/why-these-european-countries-dont-use-euro.asp

    93. Alba Jock says:

      Well Scotland’s in a mess.

      Indyref2 around the corner!

      They will all eat their words when the Scottish people eventually see the light. Without the Rev. and the knowledge of fair thinking folk (99.9% of us!) these media parasites who take our hard earned cash for false news will scurry to their holes in due course.

      #wingsoverscotlandtv

    94. c rober says:

      Not strange at all – same week that saw a better poll result for indy – higher than the starting base in indy 1.

      Is it time for Holyrood yet to get its finger out on the media with a proper press complaints body?

    95. louis.b.argyll says:

      A good way to turn a Unionist on his/her heels would be..asking them..

      Do you think the SNP GOVERNMENT is,
      ‘in any way’ responsible for the wastage and inadequacy of the schools program in Edinburgh?

      Start your discussion following their reply.

    96. Legerwood says:

      When Mr Junker took office in 2014 his first speech included a section saying that further expansion of the EU was going to be paused until 2020. He was referring to expansion of the EU eastwards.

      The media in the UK reported this, or misreported it, as Mr Junkers saying Scotland would not get in to UK.

      His office put out a press release saying that was not the case and that Scotland’s membership in the event of independence was a separate issue.

      See this report in the Independence newspaper at the time

      http://archive.is/GQcEX

      The Guardian’s article today made reference to Junker’s speech about no further expansion but said nothing of the clarification made via the press release.

      Need to keep reminding people about this.

    97. Hamish100 says:

      Just heard a guy from Grimsby (in the North) talking about fishing rights returning home. Hate to tell the Scottish Fisherman but he thinks Scottish waters is his too.

      What are you going to do about it?

    98. Catherine Moorehead says:

      Yet Wings conveniently forgets that the EU condition of having a deficit of not much more than 3% is not only a very long way from being met by Scotland, but is virtually impossible to meet given the present state of the Scottish economy.
      And let’s not forget Spain’s veto.

    99. Macart says:

      Oh Jeez! No this utter bollox from the meeja again?!?

      They know better. They just do. Its not even f**king laziness by this point, it’s simple dishonesty.

      So, no. I really don’t have much faith in anything they say by this point.(shrugs)

    100. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jim says: 10 February, 2017 at 10:09 am:

      Inside the first page of the sun today:
      Nats fail our kids

      Err! No! Jim.

      Neither the SNP nor the SG are responsible for either Education at the actual schools level nor the building of the educational system buildings.

      They do set the overall standards but they do not run the schools, employ the teachers nor do they open, close, build or repair educational buildings.

      That is the responsibility of the mainly Labour controlled local council Education Boards.

      Not only that but the SG makes an overall grant of funds and many local councils divert the education funding to other matters.

      The SG set the curriculum but it is the local authority that runs the schools that teach it.

    101. starlaw says:

      The media is doing a grand job, by the time Indy2 comes around there wont be anyone interested in the broken record.
      Theresa May .. her new best friend Donald .. and a broken down NHS will grab the attention of the over 65’s better than anything we could ever imagine.

    102. Betty Boop says:

      Jings, those “newspapers” are missing a trick. Beats me why they need to have so many hacks writing the same rubbish. All those dated the same day, they could just employ one ly.. (oops, sorry) spinning, birlin’ toerag between them all.

    103. scottieDog says:

      @joannie
      Actually that is not the case.
      Greece aren’t going to get forgiven debt from their ‘creditors’. The miney they were supposedly given served to bail out German banks.
      If you understand the power of the fiat currency issuing state you would realise that greece could redenominte it’s debt in drachma and pay it off easily.

      One country one currency.

      This is exactly what Argentina did with its dollar denominated debt.

      The troika have behaved shockingly here.

    104. @nodrog

      it is not only Ruthie,Kezzy and Wullie that have a collaborated topic of attack on Nicola at FMQ`s

      the day before and the morning of FMQ`s the gutter press Media will have spun the topic,

      and to cap it all off, after FMQ`s the BBC and STV will spend all day criticising Nicola for a fake failure in dealing with topic of attack,

      same happens every week,you can work out the three stooges questions by what the gutter press hacks have written the day before and that morning,

      this is all being coordinated by someone/thing,just look at all these gutter rags running the same story in this post.

    105. Peter says:

      Actually, the Guardian article is balanced and factual.
      I’m not sure why it is being criticised?

    106. Robert Graham says:

      Against my better judgement I watched yesterday’s FMQs , oh god it was worse than I expected, what became obvious was the visible double act between Labour & Tory , working in Concert like a dodgy tag team .
      Can I make a suggestion to Nicola, Stop, Stop, Stop , right now giving detailed answers to both Labour & Tory placements, they don’t listen , I suspect they don’t even hear what has been said before trying to make a cheap point, go for the Throat , attack them personally, attack their party , do what Mayday does don’t answer the bloody question, make a political point with every answer, in short stop being so cooperative, treat them exactly in the same manner as our MPs are treated at Westminster .
      End of rant.

    107. velofello says:

      The IndyRef2 campaign is going be quite different. IndyRef1 we we’re trying to persuade people of the benefits of independence against a Better together theme of – you’ll be out of the EU, what currency will you have, you are not a country, you ceased to be with the Act of Union.
      So next time at the street stall, and door canvassing – Hi folks – remember the Vow? Now it’s Brexit, and with the USA “holding the UK close” – NHS privatised, fracking, illegal wars. etc. What lies are they telling now? Have you seen London Calling yet?

      One other thing. We are a nation, and we inhabit a piece of land, country, at the northern part of these isles. For the Unionists to state that we do not exist as a country is nonsense. If sea levels were to rise and cover all of England and the people fled, would the English nation no longer exist?And the ruling of the Supreme Court that Westminster, English dominated, and with no written constitution, holds sway over us I find deeply offensive.

    108. Alastair says:

      Re Refugee children
      Balls famously wrote on leaving the treasury “Dear Chief Secretary, I’m afraid there is no money.

      Will Home Secretary Amber Rudd be writing “there are no morals left”

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @One_Scot says: 10 February, 2017 at 10:21 am:

      “The SNP really have to get cast iron EU membership facts regarding IndyRef2 as soon as possible, as not doing so may well erode support for a Yes vote.”

      And just how do you propose they do that, One Scot?

      It is against the EU rules for them to even debate such things because the rules are that there must be a formal request from a Member State, (Article 50), before the EU even recognizes that a members state wants to leave.

      Until that has, not only arrived, but made its way through the system then there has been no official request to leave made.

      What’s more, as the EC is the Civil Service of the European Parliament, the Article 50 request will probably have to go via the EC. The EC do not make decisions but they do scrutinise and recommend actions based mainly upon legal opinions but EC officials are not lawyers so that is another potential wee side-track.

      Then the EU parliament has a very crowded schedule and they, not Theresa May, decide what the importance of any business will be and where it fits in with more important, or more urgent, matters.

      It will be only after there is a formal session of the EU parliament that open discussion with the UK can begin. The UK PM has already been studiously made to wait on more than one occasion already.

      There will be no formal and open debate until the EU decides there can be and even then they may make it a hard and long drawn out matter.

    110. galamcennalath says:

      Looks like the Brexit bill (small b) could cost the UK £48billion

      http://archive.is/mUzzo

      Of course the Brexit Bill (large B) is going to cost the UK much much more!

    111. stewartb says:

      This EU membership scaremongering reminds me of something similar in July 2014 – see http://wingsoverscotland.com/what-it-would-be-like/

      From this Wings’ piece, you will see mention of a rare example of decent BBC Scotland journalism as the scares were debunked by James Cook. Who in PQ will take on his mantle and properly inform the BBC’s viewers and listeners? Or will the BBC use its newspaper reviews to pass on this nonsense without question?

      Its a very sad and worrying day for our society when once ‘quality’ papers like The Times and the Guardian rival the Express and Scotsman in the nature of their reporting.

    112. Socrates MacSporran says:

      nodrog @ 1.14pm said:

      “I watched tweedledum and tweedledee (that’s the leader of the RED Tories and the leader of the BLUE Tories)at FMQ yesterday”.

      Should you not perhaps have referred to them as Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber? I think we could then have worked-out which is which.

    113. joannie says:

      @scotty dog – leaving the euro would cause hyperinflation and recession in Greece. I agree that the troika are being unreasonable, but the only sensible answer to Greece’s problems is debt relief.

    114. galamcennalath says:

      @me @2:28pm

      Actually, the rUK might only have to pay ~£44billion if Scotland stays in the EU 🙂

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      Curious one – why did she speak?

      She’s outgoing, but so is the UK out the EU. So maybe she’s retiring, or would move out of the UK to another EU member.

      Or she’s looking for another job. I got as far as wondering if she was angling for a job on the UK Brexit team. BUT there is no official policy on Scotland, May’s leaving that open despite the rhetoric. It could be in rUK’s interest to ahve Scotalnd IN the EU – some of us think so.

      There is another possibility though – she’s angling for a job in the Edinburgh office – perhaps in or even heading up the big new one that would be needed, with a good multiple of number of staff.

      Because otherwise – why did she speak?

    116. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Actually, the Guardian article is balanced and factual.
      I’m not sure why it is being criticised?”

      ‘Cause you’re a walloper perhaps? Now – back under your bridge.

    117. call me dave says:

      1. Radio shortbread had a little bit on the Edinburgh schools report by Prof Cole ‘completion certificates’ not signed off. etc.

      About 1hr 09 mins in for 4 mins.

      2. Also later on Gary had an interview with the architect Malcolm Fraser who predicted trouble and resigned over the issue of PFI built schools, poor quality and the deregulation involved.

      Labour in power PFI and Edinburgh Schools contract also mentioned

      “It’s was like a school bus without wheel nuts”

      Oh well one in the eye for me! Auntie actually reported it fine. 🙂

      2hrs 30mins in for a bit. Here’s the link.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c3wlc

      PS:
      STV news has a page on it too.

      https://archive.is/Hmmon

      PPS:
      Heard there that all of our submarines are in for repair a few minutes ago. Any navy men out there!

    118. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 10 February, 2017 at 10:41 am:

      “I seem to recall that a certain President stood up and said unequivocally that the UK would go to the back of the trade deal queue. The same papers foamed at the mouth at that saying it was EU lies. They can’t have their cake and eat it. “

      Now I may be jumping to wrong conclusions but as you do not say what the person was the president of I assume it was probably the former President of the EC a certain Mr. José Manuel Durão Barroso, who is a Portuguese politician and the current, non-executive, chairman at Goldman Sachs International.

      Previously he was the 11th President of the European Commission between 2004 and 2014). He was also the 115th Prime Minister of Portugal between 2002 and 2004. So he actually was never anything more than a paid employee of the EU parliament as the head of their Civil Service and thus had no decision making powers of any kind.

      He just liked to spout lots of irrelevant pish.

    119. Arbroath1320 says:

      call me dave says:

      Heard there that all of our submarines are in for repair a few minutes ago. Any navy men out there!

      I think this might shed a wee bit of light on what you’re asking about CMD. 😉

      https://www.rt.com/uk/376926-navy-submarine-fleet-action/

    120. nodrog says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:

      “Should you not perhaps have referred to them as Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber? I think we could then have worked-out which is which.”

      I accept your analysis perhaps I was too kind to the BLUE Tory leader. But I am sure most people would have accepted the RED Tory leader as Tweedledum.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      Incidentally, this article is a classic example of what the Rev does well. It looks at what the media says someone says, it then checks to see what was actually said, and forensically compares and contrasts the two. As the About says:

      Wings Over Scotland is a Scottish political website, which focuses particularly on the media – whether mainstream print and broadcast organisations or the online and social-network community – as well as offering its own commentary and analysis.

      So checking out and pulling up the media is a main task.

      But the traditional media doesn’t do this, they don’t haul each other over the coals, what they can do is write the same story as elsewhere, but very differently – precisely as The National did over this story. It was very positive, the rest were negative.

      But for those saying The National should have regular articles from the Rev, that last is why it wouldn’t. The traditional media just doesn’t do that – or very rarely.

    122. Greannach says:

      The great thing is hardly anyone buys or reads these papers.

    123. Dave says:

      I heard from my best friends’ uncles 2nd cousins twice removed brother that Scotland wouldn’t be able to join the EU without having to go to the back of the queue because he saw somebody scribble it down on a piece of paper and leave it lying on a chair. So it must be true!

    124. Clapper57 says:

      Note how MP’s and churnalists are constantly touting democracy as THE definitive answer to any objections raised against Brexit or Trump’s election.

      Democratic will of the people.

      Democratically voted for by the people.

      Respect the democratic will of the people.

      Democratically elected by the American people.

      The people have spoken and have democratically voted for …….

      They are using democracy as a weapon to shut down any opposition to Brexit and Trump.

      By constantly hiding behind ‘democracy’ they are desperately trying to deny people the right to engage in further debate and thus challenge the real reasons behind Brexit and Trump.

      Opposition to Brexit and Trump are being presented as treacherous and undemocratic.

      To be named and shamed as someone who opposes Brexit and Trump is to be declared as someone who is not to be trusted and thus a betrayer of the people and democracy itself.

      MP’s who fear falling off the WM gravy train willingly succumb and comply to the will of the people ….i.e. the will of the people of the country not their actual feckin constituents who feckin elected them ! I smell shit hitting political seats when shit hits the actual Brexit fan especially those seats where majority was for Remain.

      They are prepared to leap of the cliff to save their collective political arses because they fear being presented as ‘Undemocratic’ . And this is, by the way, the MP’s who were staunch Remainers pre EU vote !

      None of them are prepared to fight for staying in the EU /Single Market , Labour hedged their bets by offering amendments before triggering article 50 thus trying to appease their Remain constituents. However they said they would still trigger article 50 even if NONE of their amendments are passed and lo and behold the majority did just that…..so what’s the piggin point…oh yes I know…. political posturing.

      Brexit style democracy is being presented as winners (Brexiteers) take all ,whose opinion matter and who are listened to, decides/dictates the terms while the losers (Remainers) told to just suck it up , shut up and to have no further say on terms/deals/outcomes, which we and they know, will affect everyone……Brexit debate is mere window dressing and has been hijacked in WM by anti EU Tories whose speeches are of Churchillian proportions.

      And now , thanks to Brexit , we have those MP’s who pre Presidential elections were condemning Trump , now justifying association with him because……you guessed it…..he was ‘democratically’ elected by American people…….not of course because they are now so feckin desperate for a deal…..with anyone …..values and morals not required………thanks to…..that lump of shit that is Brexit.

      And yes they are even using that ‘democratic’ word in reference to the result of the Scottish Referendum while, just like Brexit, omitting all of the lies and promises they made to achieve their undeserved victory. Though they do NOT want to acknowledge democracy in the election of SNP as Scottish government …..oh no that is under the category of a one party state don’t ya know because everything is feckin democratic apart from SNP winning elections.

      Democracy ……oh ya bloody think so……don’t make me laugh .

      ps The Express is a perpetual bucket of shit whose churnalists float in the filth they create but hopefully we can flush them all away post Independence…….end of.

    125. galamcennalath says:

      Dirty tricks?

      “… disgraced senior diplomat at the Israeli embassy in London spent several hours courting the Scottish National Party’s deputy leader ahead of his official trip to Israel,”

      http://archive.is/eTqtr

    126. louis.b.argyll says:

      Re Greece, Scotland, UK, wherever..

      If an entire generation steals the wealth of it’s own nation by not paying it’s taxes..or electing idiots..

      AND successive governments move the goalposts/divert spending (eg tuition fees) to hide it’s mistakes and stay solvent.

      Now, several generations have retired from a free-education and health society and allowed politicians to pull up the drawbridge of access-to-education and welfare-for-all.

      Too many are living in hideously-expensive tax free properties in relative comfort on a tax free pension not available to those who will follow..while many more pensioners love in fuel poverty

      It’s deliberate disenfranchisement. Thanks Tory types.

      Scandalous.. history will judge them.

      We, unfortunately, can’t wait that long, so must face hard realities head-on with free thinking and logic.

      It’s ‘Independence – or bust’

      (with privatised government being eventually replaced by profit driven corporations).

    127. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2.41

      I took it to mean President Obama’s comment during the EU ref. Saying UK would be at back of queue in event of a leave vote for a trade dal with USA.

      Mr Barrosso’s remarks during Indyref were about membership rather than about trade.

    128. Robert Peffers says:

      @donald anderson says: 10 February, 2017 at 11:09 am:

      “If it was a “queue”, we wouldn’t have had 16 new EU members since Turkey first applied to join in 1987.”

      Thing is it cannot be a queue nor can it be a list.

      The reason being that to be in either we first have to NOT on the inside looking out.

      As we have all been, since the EU began, EU Citizens then we are still on the inside looking out.

      What is more, as we are EU citizens, we have EU Citizens rights.

      Wingers I urge you to read what your EU Citizenship rights actually are. Then perhaps we may discuss and debate how best to use our EU citizen’s rights.

      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

    129. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The great thing is hardly anyone buys or reads these papers.”

      It’s a classic symbiotic relationship. The strategy here is to ‘legitimise’ the broadcasters’ review of the papers in which these ‘stories’ are given prominent exposure and coverage – right into the 65+ living rooms all across the land. The broadcasters just report what the ‘newspapers’ report with the least amount of scrutiny of the ‘story’ let alone getting anywhere near to the actual truth of anything.

      The papers are the Trojan horse, bringing in the broadcasters’ big guns.

    130. call me dave says:

      Arbroath1320

      Thanks for that. Got distracted there.

      Was away checking two brown envelopes in the post.

      1:
      Another billet-doux from Auntie (just after me praising them up the thread a few minutes ago too)

      I’m under investigation from the Falkirk Branch for no TV licence. Only since 2012 🙂

      It will join the previous lot.

      2.
      State Pension going up a smidgen worth an extra semi-skimmed coffee (medium) once a week… Happy days! 🙂

    131. DebzoHighland says:

      As the EU are currently unable to answer the political question about Scotland’s future in the EU once the UK leaves………..would it not be better to ask the legal question……….

      Could the EU legally eject an independent Scotland, (which voted overwhelmingly to remain), from the EU just because one of its (equal) partners in the member state has voted to leave?

      Surely as EU citizens we have a right to remain?

      I have posed this question to my MEP, MP, MSP.

    132. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 10 February, 2017 at 11:30 am:

      “However I’m very positive that behind the scenes plans are afoot to debunk these scare stories. Off course even if they were true, this time even being in the so called queue is better than not being in it at all.”

      Come on Guys an Gals – get a grip.

      Before we could be in a queue or on a list we must first be on the outside looking in. Until then we are on the inside looking out and we remain EU Citizens and EU citizens have EU citizens rights. Let’s see if we can use them – shall we?

      Would you all please go are read what your citizens rights are. Then we just might be able to use our rights while there is no doubts we are, fully paid up, EU citizens with rights :-

      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

    133. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Dont these unionist msm fish and chip wrappers and the goons who write/repeat for them ever get tired of spewing out the same old tedious bullshit ad nauseum whenever the words indyref and eu are mentioned?

    134. Dr Jim says:

      News just in:

      Donald Trump offers to buy England following the completion of Brexit providing all Muslims are ejected from the country as they’re a security threat and he doesn’t like them
      Other conditions are the arrest and beheading of Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond as he’s heard the phrase “rebellious Scots to crush” and agrees with its principles

      The president went on to say he does not want either Ireland or Wales so those people can leave peacefully and that land can be reused for more sensible purposes than having ethnics living on it

      Scotland is to remain for an expansion plan to merge all Trump golf courses into one and to have the biggest golfing experience in the world thus attracting Japanese and Chinese tourists in huge numbers who will require servicing so the Scottish people who are used to being a servile race are to remain in that capacity

      The Royal Family are also ecouraged to remain but will be removed to a spacious new home at Whipsnade to leave Buckingham palace free for a second home after upgrade and refurbishment for the American President

      When questioned on Trumps plans the British Prime Minister Theresa May said these proposals are being considered and will not require parliaments involvement as this was a matter for her and her alone as the premier most powerful person in Ahyookay and also was price dependent

      Now some might say that’s the Doc being humorously daft again and I hope they’d be right (about the humour part) but if you think about it for a second does anybody think that wouldn’t cross Trumps madmans mind if he thought he could do it and Crazy May would sell too
      (well she’s selling the English health service to him)

    135. stewartb says:

      As EU citizens, its time we had some clarity over the Commission’s formal position over Scotland’s status should it become independent – is the clarification that James Cook obtained from Juncker’s office in 2014 still valid or has the position changed?

      It is not acceptable that the EU Head of Representation in the UK can make a statement on an independent Scotland’s place regarding EU membership that is either so vague, or at variance with the Juncker’s clarification in 2014, that it provides fodder for Unionist scaremongering. If the Commission is unwilling to express a formal opinion then the Head of Representation in the UK should have made no comment on the matter.

      You might like to join in requesting clarification from the EU representatives in the UK using the contact information at https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/about-us/contact_en

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @Angus MacAlister says: 10 February, 2017 at 11:35 am:

      “The Scottish Government should be discussing guaranteed membership as an independent nation with the EU now so that is integral to the overall package that will define what independence will mean.”

      Angus, the Scottish Government is not the member state. The EU has made it plain that they cannot deal with them directly as they are not the member state. You can forget there being any formal interaction with the SG for the time being as it is against EU rules.

      But you, and every other resident in the UK are an EU citizen and we, it seems, do have the right as citizens to not only use our citizens rights but we seem to also have the right to petition the EU – something it seems the SG as a government cannot do. Let us see if we can stir things up a bit.

      Let’s see what we Wingers can do :-
      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

    137. Andy Anderson says:

      All those papers with the same story. What a coincidence. Owners must be wanting to get a lordship.

    138. Mungo says:

      Can do no harm stewartb, but once article 50 is triggered I think we’ll get a little more clarity

    139. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scott Shaw says: 10 February, 2017 at 11:40 am:

      “After reading the Buzzfeed article is anyone else noticing EU officials increasingly referring to Scotland as a country in its own right and not part of greater England as the tories et al’ seem to think?”

      Yes, Scott, I have and have been hinting at it for some time now. This is why I’m now taking a more direct line and not now just dropping hints.

      Get yourself over to this link and start reading – we are all EU citizens with EU citizen’s rights – lets use them as best we can – both individually and collectively.

      If I’m reading things right there have been EU hints getting dropped for us to grab and use.

      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

    140. Liz says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      10 February, 2017 at 12:22 pm
      There is of course a very simple, straightforward answer to all this tosh about the EU, Spainish veto, ‘Queues’ blah blah ad nauseum

      Which is that we will maintain seamless single market access via EFTA/EEA and then have a post independence vote on joining the EU. Just as Austria, Finland and Sweden did.

      Express trying to make out that not only will we have to join back of the queue and accept the euro, but we will NOT be allowed a ‘norway’ type deal!!

    141. scottieDog says:

      @joannie
      Recession?
      Greece is way beyond that. They are in full blown depression due to the stability growth pact – the most clueless policy around.
      You lurch onto ‘hyper inflation’ and this is the same guff the unionists will jump onto when we talk about a scottish currency. The circumstances for hyper inflation are specific and are very well documented.

      You night mean devaluation. That in itself would serve to rebalance the economy in making greek exports very attractive.

      You really need to qualify ‘hyperinflation’ rather than grabbing soundbites.

    142. Les Wilson says:

      There must be someone who calls up the UKOK press offices and tells them today’s attack agenda.
      That is really the only way every paper and media outlet would be in unison.

      Project fear is firmly in place, emanating from Westminster and it’s proxies. Still we know their form, and more of us than ever before see through it. We will have some to go but the tipping point gets closer.

    143. K1 says:

      Right, Robert (Peffers), I’m looking at the site site you’ve linked to and I’m on the ‘petitions’ page, here is the ‘criteria’ that needs to be in place before raising a petition:

      Why a right of petition?

      European citizens repeatedly call on European Union institutions to remain open to their concerns. Petitions are a valuable means of enabling individuals to obtain a formal hearing by the EU institutions, establishing a direct link between them and their elected representatives. It also brings to the European Parliament’s attention infringements or incorrect implementation of EU legislation so that action can be taken to remedy matters or areas where EU legislation may need to be reviewed.

      The right of petition was created to provide EU citizens and residents with a simple way of contacting the institutions with a request or complaint. This right is conferred by European Union citizenship.

      A petition must relate to a subject falling within the sphere of activity of the European Union and concern the petitioner directly. If this is not the case, the complaint is declared ineligible.

      How to exercise it?

      The petition may take the form of:

      a request arising from a general need, for example the protection of a cultural monument;
      an individual grievance, such as the recognition of family allowance rights;

      an application to the European Parliament to take a position on a matter of public interest, like human rights.

      Preparing a petition: how to proceed?

      A petition may be written or submitted online. Though there is no specific format for a written petition, certain requirements – set out in instructions – must be met. The petitioner must include his or her:

      name;
      nationality;
      address and signature; and
      must write in one of the official EU languages.
      You can find more information on this and see other submitted petitions on the Parliament’s Petitions’ Portal.

      ————————–

      So my question is on what ‘subject’ can we get a petition going that ‘falls within the sphere of activity of the European Union’ and how do we ascertain what’s ‘personal’ about our ‘complaint/petition’?

      —————————

      Very much up for finding a way to appeal to the EU but really need a bit more input and understanding of what ‘we can actually do’ to aid our case. And I think that one ‘bold’ paragraph above is where the ‘nub’ resides?

    144. Les Wilson says:

      Yeah post truth is here with venom
      There must be someone who calls up the UKOK press offices and tells them today’s attack agenda.
      That is really the only way every paper and media outlet would be in unison.

      Project fear is firmly in place, emanating from Westminster and it’s proxies. Still we know their form, and more of us than ever before see through it. We will have some to go but the tipping point gets closer.

    145. JaceF says:

      Robert Peffers @3:51pm

      A complaint to the European Ombudsman on the comments in the UK newspapers regarding Scotland being “sent to the back of the queue” and / or a petition on Scottish EU citizens losing their rights after voting to remain?

      Interesting.

    146. K1 says:

      It’s ‘how to word’ it, is what I’m getting at. (just in case that’s not clear)

    147. JaceF says:

      The UK are about to “negotiate” with the EU over Brexit.

      Day 1 UK: You will give us all we want, we have North sea fishing rights you rely on.

      EU: Scotland will have instant retained access if it votes for independence, over to you UK.

      UK: F*ck

    148. Angus MacAlister says:

      Very interesting Robert, maybe getting a petition to the EU off the ground for the commission to clarify Scotland’s position regarding membership if we become independent before Brexit is the way forward. I for one would be happy to put my name to it. Looks like we are going to have to be creative if we are going to win this time.

    149. Proud Cybernat says:

      You won’t be in the EU.

      You won’t be in EEA/EFTA.

      You won’t get a Norway-type deal.

      Blah-blah-blah…

      Well, you know what. If we stick with this rotten UK Union we will be OUT of the EU for GOOD!

      With Indy we’re IN (even if eventually).

      So STFU, colonial #fakenewspapers and #fakenewsbroadcasters.

    150. JaceF says:

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/appendix/legislativeprocedure/europarl_ordinarylegislativeprocedure_glossary_en.pdf

      Petitions to the European Parliament
      Any EU citizen, resident, or company, organisation or association with its headquarters in the EU, can petition Parliament on any subject falling within the EU’s remit and which directly affects them. Such petitions give the European Parliament the opportunity of calling attention to any infringement of a European citizen’s rights by a member state, local authority or other institution.

    151. JaceF says:

      The Scottish government would classify as an organisation or association with its headquarters in the EU

    152. ianbeag says:

      Support – straight from the horse’s mouth
      https://amp.twimg.com/v/a9b88577-e402-4c83-a254-ce32affde399

    153. Ghillie says:

      The more they panic and the more they centrifuge the truth, the more I know we are well on the road = )

    154. Stoker says:

      Thomas wrote on 10 February, 2017 at 10:44 am

      “I for one am sick to the back teeth of this constant, anti-independence shite coming from the MSM, they’re all at it….”

      T’was ever thus, Thomas, and they’ll never stop, there is no reason to. There’s no consequences for their actions. Just take a look at the 2 posts on this btl thread (at 10:08am and 10:55am) containing direct links to BUM sites. And those links have been posted by 2 independence supporters you could hardly call thick.

      Those BUM sites push nothing but anti Scottish independence propaganda, always have and they always will, but we still see people on our side repeatedly buying into them and promoting and supporting them as if they are true news outlets. We can’t very well mump and moan about it when some of our own so-called supporters are their biggest sales people.

    155. DebzoHighland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 3.43

      You are far more knowledgable about the correct wording of an EU petition than I.
      Were you to start one up, I would be more than willing to sign and share on social media.

    156. Robert Peffers says:

      @Derick fae Yell says: 10 February, 2017 at 12:22 pm:

      “There is of course a very simple, straightforward answer to all this tosh about the EU, Spainish veto, ‘Queues’ blah blah ad nauseum”

      Simple my arse. Derek. In the first place the only official Spanish statement on this matter is that the Spanish Government acknowledge that the situations of Spain and the UK in relation to their respective independence seeking bits is totally different and Spain will not block a Scottish application to re-join the EU.

      Barroso is NOT Spanish and does not speak for Spain. Neither was he in the EU he was in the EC and thus was not speaking for the EU.

      Furthermore, we cannot apply to be in the EU until we are out of the EU and the EU cannot deal with the SG until the UK submits an Article 50 request

      As to EFTA/EEA – don’t they have a say in whether they want Scotland in or out of their organisation? I read there were objections and anyway it wouldn’t be considered officially unless we were already outside both the UK and EU

      However, I may have found a loophole that could officially get our opinions to the EU and to demand our rights as EU citizens for official information that cannot be given to the SG as a body.

      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

      Go read it and lets see if anyone sees the best way to use our legal rights as EU citizens while we are still EU citizens.

      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

    157. Stoker says:

      C’moan Boab & Co, get your thinking caps on and we’ll all get behind it. No commercial ones though! 😉

    158. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Go read it and lets see if anyone sees the best way to use our legal rights as EU citizens while we are still EU citizens.”

      Let me guess, Robert. The BREXIT vote in WM is subjugating the sovereign will of the sovereign people of Scotland?

      Sounds good to me.

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave Hansell says: 10 February, 2017 at 12:30 pm:

      “Are there not plans afoot to set up some body, commission or whatever to look into how to tackle these fake news sites?
      Also, are the Web sites of these fake news outlets supposed to be being blocked by the likes of Google, Facebook, Twitter etc?”

      Arrrgh! Dave the most fake of all fake news sites are Radio Scotland, the BBC in general and the Mainstream media like the Daily Record, Herald, Mail et.al.

    160. john young says:

      I read somewhere that there are only 3 countries out of 100+ that have held referendums,if this is so we should just go ahead and declare independence and fcuk them.

    161. yesindyref2 says:

      This news came out in the media, and the SNP were immediately on top of it, as was The National and indeed Rev Stu. Probably other sites too. Not saying we can sit back and enjoy the munchies, but there’s no need to panic. Don’t panic!

      Onyway, flying a kite here. The rUK hates the Commission because of straight bananas (myth). And with the interventions in 2014 which seemed to be safe at the time, much of Scotland probably isn’t too fond of them either. There’s little doubt that Baroso was happy at being misinterpreted, and the Commission made no real effort to contradict that, they let it lie – lie literally.

      But now from their point of view it must be more than 50-50 that Scotland will be Independent and with 62%, want to stay in the EU. That means they’re faced with Scotland having 1 out of 28 on the Councils, and 13 MEPs on the Parliament, taking a full member state membership of one or more of the power blocs – for the SNP and likely at least 1 Green MEP, the influential Green.

      Now then, says the Commission, do we really want a hostile Scotland as a member telling us to GTF every time we open our mouths? I don’t think so!

    162. Les Wilson says:

      I am in, with contacting the EU, It really could give us an extra boost in numbers if we could get a good answer.
      It appears our rights across a spectrum are protected, if they are true as their word then we need to have someone with legal words assemble the the appeal to the EU departments concerned.

      So Yes a petition would help, if we can get the numbers up.
      We need to also remember we are not the goverment of Scotland and each person will be a EU citizen, that has to be important for the EU if they are to be honestly true to their own agenda and rules.

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      Ach away, I might as well do another boring posting. This is opinion but here you go.

      Before 2009 the EU Parliament didn’t have a vote on policy, so apart from the Councils the Commission could do what it wanted – and it did. Hence over-harmonisation and excessive bureaucracy. The Council members were mostly fighting amongst themselves, with the UK being the prime suspect though of course, it blamed the French and the French blamed the Germans, everyone blamed the Greeks, and the … well, you get the picture.

      2008 and the banks was a shocker, the eurocrisis another (hey, the euro survived and so has Greece), and Brexit is a massive one. But even before Brexit the EU democracy has started to fight back against the Commission. The EU Parliament scrutinises what it does and is becoming more sure of itself as it goes along. I’d say without the UK the Councils will work better as well, a bit less confrontation, and more concensus.

      Which means the Commission will become more what it should be – the Civil Service of the EU. Consultation and suggestion yes, even forming new policy for approval. But basically implementation and indirectly or directly, enforcement.

      So if anyone tells you the EU is dying it ain’t, it’s rebirthing itself, more as it should be. On sound democratic principles.

    164. Andy Anderson says:

      I have written to everyone on my email list and explained to them that I will be sending them short articles now and then that debunk any fake news from the media. Before I started this I explained that they can opt out before I start as I do not wish to cheese anyone of. We are all entitled to our opinions. Obviously sent by blind carbon copy.
      I was pleased to see that many wanted my news and some were soft and hard NO’s in 2014. Communicating news to non Yesser’s is a must if we must win.

    165. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT But the Evening Standard is reporting on the petition to send down the stupid , moronic student and states that ‘ he is believed to be a distant relative of Ms Sturgeon’

      The media is indulging in Chinese whisper reporting and it has the cheek to shout ‘fake news’ and make programmes about fake news as though it is everyone but themselves.

    166. Les Wilson says:

      There should also be neutral observers put in for Indy2, despite being reserved to Westminster, the EU would be fine but would not work due to the UKOK media going loopy and causing trouble. But maybe UN would do it, still need neutral people not those enthrall with Westminster.

    167. Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I stand corrected but that the SNP are being made out, through devious reporting, to be responsible for crumbling schools when it should be Slabour getting pilloried, really boils my pish.

      The National could do much to properly apportion blame where it is deserved but will the real story get out to those that matter, not the lies that they are being fed on a daily basis?

    168. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Haud oan a meenit peepul; A wee thocht.

      I have always understood that the various institutions within the EU operate thus:

      The EU Parliament is largely a talking shop.

      The Eu Commission is a secretariat organisation – the European civil service if you like.

      The REAL decisions are made by the Council of Ministers. It is at the Council of Ministers meetings that Frau Merkel ignores Mrs May; the French President glad-hands the Italian Prime Minister and the other political leaders, be they prime ministers, presidents, chancellors or whatever line-up for those nice group photographs.

      This is where the true power resides, and, while we should be sending the likes of Mike Russell round to meet up with Alyn Smith and his colleagues to meet and greet the MEPs and Commissioners, we should be making sure Wee Eck and more-importantly Wee Nicola are getting access to the real grande fromages of the EU – Mrs Merkel and Co.

      Assure them, we want to stay in Europe; we are fully-paid-up European citizens and we are fighting for our independence, among other reasons, so we can stay within the EU.

      Given the Tories and their UKIP camp followers will, true to form, be doing everything in their power to piss Europe off during the Brexit negotiations, I reckon we will, even if we have to step outside while independence is settled, not be outside too long.

    169. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alastair says: 10 February, 2017 at 2:27 pm:

      “Balls famously wrote on leaving the treasury “Dear Chief Secretary, I’m afraid there is no money.
      Will Home Secretary Amber Rudd be writing “there are no morals left””

      No but the new chancellor will find a note on the desk. “Dear New Chancellor,
      There’s a whacking great drawer full of IOUs in the bottom left-hand Drawer.

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      Herald: “ The Daily Mail’s political editor has been appointed Prime Minister Theresa May’s official spokesman.

      James Slack will leave the newspaper to replace Helen Bower, who is taking up a new role as director of communications at the Foreign Office.

    171. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links to kick-start July 2013 now showing on O/T.

    172. Bill McDermott says:

      I had an e-mail this morning from the bold Ruthie asking me to think seriously about all these threats of Indyref 2 coming from Nicola Sturgeon. It ended with a donate button for the cause.

      My reply was somewhat abrupt saying no thanks and making reference to Mayhem in London. I signed off with Alba gu Brath so I suspect I will not be propositioned again.

    173. Robert Louis says:

      Meanwhile, so-called ‘journalists’ everywhere whinge that they are not taken seriously, and people should trust them and not ‘websites’.

      Here’s the thing though, in Scotland, the so-called ‘journalists’ seem to be compulsive liars, every last one of them. I’d trust lying, homophobic, sexist, misogynist, racist clown US president Donald Trump before I ever trusted a so-called ‘journalist’ from Scotland.

      As evidence by the utter rubbish highlighted in the article above, they have nobody to blame but themselves. Tell lies on a daily basis, and you get called a liar.

    174. heedtracker says:

      The more things change…TGIF

      Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame,
      Fareweel our ancient glory;
      Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name,
      Sae fam’d in martial story.
      Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
      An’ Tweed rins to the ocean,
      To mark where England’s province stands-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      What force or guile could not subdue,
      Thro’ many warlike ages,
      Is wrought now by a coward few,
      For hireling ("Tractor" - Ed)’s wages.
      The English stell we could disdain,
      Secure in valour’s station;
      But English gold has been our bane-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      O would, or I had seen the day
      That Treason thus could sell us,
      My auld grey head had lien in clay,
      Wi’ Bruce and loyal Wallace!
      But pith and power, till my last hour,
      I’ll mak this declaration;
      We’re bought and sold for English gold-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

    175. Orri says:

      Part of what’s happening in NHS in England was also happening in Scotland before the SNP put an end to it. Social services, paid by the local councils, seemed less than capable at finding places or provision in their own homes for pensioners or other vulnerable people being discharged from hospital. The cynical among you might conlude that that helped keep the local authority’s budgets down.

    176. wull2 says:

      What I want to know, are the SMP’s allowed to clap in the Scottish Parliament ? or are we like Westminster we are not allowed, as we will get told off again, it is OK to grunt, shout and stamp your feet, just not clap or you will be sent to the naughty step !

    177. Robert Peffers says:

      @nodrog says: 10 February, 2017 at 2:46 pm:

      “I accept your analysis perhaps I was too kind to the BLUE Tory leader. But I am sure most people would have accepted the RED Tory leader as Tweedledum.”

      No mistaking Tweedledem then?

    178. Elmac says:

      Apologies if this link has been posted earlier. Good to see that some of our neighbours south of the border can open their eyes to what is going on and have the moral backbone to say something about it. Article is entitled “Is Scottish IndyRef 2 inevitable” and was posted on 10 Feb on the Another Angry Voice website.

      http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @DebzoHighland says: 10 February, 2017 at 3:15 pm:

      “As the EU are currently unable to answer the political question about Scotland’s future in the EU once the UK leaves………..would it not be better to ask the legal question……….”

      The EU cannot officially answer any questions from the SG as the UK is the official member state.

      “Could the EU legally eject an independent Scotland, (which voted overwhelmingly to remain), from the EU just because one of its (equal) partners in the member state has voted to leave?”

      Last time I looked there were only two partners in the United Kingdom and the signatures on the document prove there are only two. In fact in 1706/7 there were only two kingdoms in the whole of Britain. So where any other kingdoms could be partners in the United Kingdom I cannot figure out. Ireland made itself part of the English Kingdom in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland Act and the English annexed the Princedom of Wales in 1248 by the Statute of Rhuddlan.

      Surely as EU citizens we have a right to remain?
      I have posed this question to my MEP, MP, MSP.

      See my posts to read :-

      http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/

      Apparently, under EU law, we, as EU citizens have the right to get answers from the EU or to petition the EU parliament.

    180. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, the Rev is right: the unionists are in such a bind they can only churn out the same old lies and hope the uninformed keep believing their tosh.

      I’m waiting for the recycling of Will Hutton’s off-the-scale fruit-loopery from a week before the 2014 referendum when he regarded the prospect of our freedom with this barking mad piece. And to think I used to regard him as a serious political thinker and The Guardian and Observer as proper newspapers.

      For example: “If Britain can’t find a way of sticking together, it is the death of the liberal enlightenment before the atavistic forces of nationalism and ethnicity – a dark omen for the 21st century. Britain will cease as an idea. We will all be diminished.”

      Thank God England has avoided such dark forces post-Brexit, eh?

      And how can an idea “cease”? Can’t you just think it again?

      Read the whole car-crash here:

      http://archive.is/Is9OB#selection-1179.0-1191.49

    181. Robert Peffers says:

      @K1 says: 10 February, 2017 at 4:06 pm:

      “So my question is on what ‘subject’ can we get a petition going that ‘falls within the sphere of activity of the European Union’ and how do we ascertain what’s ‘personal’ about our ‘complaint/petition’?”</I

      Just a suggestion but to my mind the UK government's threat to remove from all Scots their EU citizenship when a majority of Scots democratically voted to remain EU citizens
      —————————
      “Very much up for finding a way to appeal to the EU but really need a bit more input and understanding of what ‘we can actually do’ to aid our case. And I think that one ‘bold’ paragraph above is where the ‘nub’ resides?”

      They cannot say it is not relevant nor can it be denied that it is personal. If I’m reading things correctly there are two things being spoken of by the EU.

      I’m thinking that they perhaps do not mean , “A petition”, as in millions of individual signatures signing up to a single written request.

      More as an individual petitioning the EU as an individual citizen with a personal grievance .

      Which is why I suggest we investigate just what they mean before doing something we might regret.

    182. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I’m remembering what someone wisely wrote on here not so long ago, which is that you can tell what your opponents fear most by what they try to discredit and deny.

      One of the things in indyref1 was the oil. As Alex Salmond put it, we are the only country in the world that is apparently cursed by having the stuff.

      Now it’s clearly EU membership. This “queue” business started, curiously, with the loony-right EU-haters/leavers, but has been happily picked up by the Tories and now it seems by the “me-too” BritNat press. One wonders how a so-called liberal paper like the Grauniad, and so-called europhiles like Willie Rennie and his wee band, can feel comfortable sharing their memes with neo-fascist EUphobes. They need to take a good look in the mirror.

      But it doesn’t help when people supposedly in favour of indy argue that we should settle for being dragged out of EU protection by the UK before we start looking for a second-rate EEA/EFTA lifeboat.

      It’s as clear as daylight. We need to hang on inside the EU and go for indy before the final seal is put on Brexit. That way we get no queue. And protection insurance against rUK bullying.

      That is clearly why the BritNats are so desperate to convince us by this scaremongering over “queuing”. This will be a Big Lie they will try to deploy during indyref2.

      I don’t know what Nicola & Co. are being told “behind the Arras” about EU intentions, but we urgently need something positive from the EU to counter this vile propaganda that is being spouted by the Britnats – and the sheer effrontery of it! – who are presuming to represent an EU they have no right whatever to speak for, and which in any case they are lusting to leave!

    183. HandandShrimp says:

      Tinto

      I think the problem was that Will hadn’t realised that Scotland was one of the remaining bastions of the post war liberal ideals he thought Britain represented.

      Who knows, he might join us in Indyref2 and move here 😉

      or maybe not…maybe Labour Party politics trumps (pun intended) a’ that.

    184. Robert Peffers says:

      @JaceF says: 10 February, 2017 at 4:08 pm:

      “A complaint to the European Ombudsman on the comments in the UK newspapers regarding Scotland being “sent to the back of the queue” and / or a petition on Scottish EU citizens losing their rights after voting to remain?
      Interesting.”

      My thoughts exactly. Some years ago. Before the SNP were anything like so strong I was researching how to get in contact with the EU or EC to get information. I came across some stuff but then was involved in a car crash when a drunk driver put my late wife in a wheelchair and I also was left disabled. When I next attempted to find information none of the links I had noted worked.

      I just found that one this morning very early. So not really had time to go through it all yet. In any case the more heads looking at the implications the better. It does, though, look very promising.

      If I’m reading it correctly it is telling us we EU citizens, as individuals, have more rights to demand information than the SG or the SNP as a party have.

    185. Robert Peffers says:

      @K1 says: 10 February, 2017 at 4:12 pm:

      “It’s ‘how to word’ it, is what I’m getting at. (just in case that’s not clear)”

      Loud and clear as it is just what I’m thinking about. We need to think about this and get some legal help if we can.

    186. Robert Peffers says:

      @Angus MacAlister says: 10 February, 2017 at 4:15 pm

      “Looks like we are going to have to be creative if we are going to win this time.”

      Believe it or not, Angus I’ve been trying to find that sort of information for quite a few years for I came across it long before the present indyref stuff was even thought about. The EU, EC and the UK and SG have all changed a lot in the meantime.

    187. K1 says:

      ‘Which is why I suggest we investigate just what they mean before doing something we might regret.’

      Thank you for your reply Robert, yes we need clear heads and well proposed draughts of what our petition looks like before submitting.

      ——————————-

      ‘If I’m reading it correctly it is telling us we EU citizens, as individuals, have more rights to demand information than the SG or the SNP as a party have.’

      Particularly salient point. Although we cannot as a ‘Kingdom’ within the UK ask the EU for clarification you are suggesting as ‘citizens’ with the EU we can?

      On a ‘personal’ level we would have to show clearly and precisely how our citizenship in the EU being denied by the UK gov’s headstrong railroading us out of the EU union causes us ‘personal’ harm. We would need sources and evidence (links) to backup and convey the necessity of the EU commission to intervene on our behalf to protect us in the event of Brexit.

      Something along those lines Robert?

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      @DebzoHighland says: 10 February, 2017 at 4:29 pm:

      “You are far more knowledgable about the correct wording of an EU petition than I.
      Were you to start one up, I would be more than willing to sign and share on social media.”

      I’m disabled and often housebound for weeks on end, DebzoHighland.

      I’m just not able to say I could sustain taking on the task. In any case – if the cite given is of real value it may be wise to get some real legal advice before taking any action.

      My old wise Granny used to say, “Dinna test the depth o the burn we baith feet”.

      Let’s first knock the ideas about a bit and seek more professional advice before sticking our other foot in the burn.

    189. Nana says:

      Can you smell the fear

      Someone has set up a petition stating

      EU citizens to not be allowed to vote in any Scottish independence referendum

      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/830103350507139072

    190. Meg merrilees says:

      Friends (Remain voters) from the south visited for lunch today.

      Eventually the conversation got round to Brexit etc..

      They did not know that the Scottish government had prepared a multi-page document re Scotland’s place in Europe and the possibilities it suggested e.g. that the whole UK could stay in the single market;
      they didn’t know that the Tories had voted down an amendment that asked for the Good Friday Agreement be protected within the Brexit deal;
      they didn’t know that every amendment was voted down and the last time that happened was in 1914, pre- WW1 in an emergency;
      they didn’t know that the Government voted to abolish the NHS in England in 2012;
      they didn’t know that the NHS in Scotland was performing better than England.
      They don’t know how they are going to get sanity back in English politics.

      They did know that the SNP had sung the’ Ode to Joy’ in Parliament;
      they did know that Corbyn had offered no resistance;
      they did know that the NHS was in crisis;
      they did know that Nicola Sturgeon seems to be the only politician with guts;
      they did know that the most ‘googled’ subject on June 24th was ‘What is the EU”.

      BUT
      what good would it be for Scotland to get independence?
      to change the UK union for the EU?
      why do you want to stand on your own two feet?
      you’ll have to use the euro!

      and then the ultra-brainwashed giveaway :-

      “.. but Scotland isn’t a Nation…”…

      Robert Peffers would have been proud of me!

      However, they did say that (if permission is required) the UK gov couldn’t possibly refuse Scotland another referendum if it was wanted here.

      I think they left with their eyes a bit wider open than when they came in, but isn’t it sad how little truth is getting out.

    191. Glamaig says:

      So lets get this straight- the EU is really bad, and we in the UK left it, but you, Scotland are fcuked because you wont get into the EU, and you should really stay with us in the UK, and we’ve left the EU. Whit???

    192. Graf Midgehunter says:

      The pivotal point about which everything is being played out at the moment is the notification of Art.50.

      Up till then nobody in the EU is going to say anything other than a few hints or winks about what might happen. They can’t be seen as interfering in the internal affairs of a Member State. The EU is quietly preparing itself and will first pull out the big guns when A50 arrives. Till then they keep the trap shut.

      I’m also convinced that behind the scenes the EU and SNP/SG are in informal talks about moving forward together with heavy support and guarantees for Scotland. Preparation before A50-day arrives.

      Shortly after it’s up to NS to call Indyref-2 with a date. The EU will then be obliged to act to protect the rights of the EU citizens in Scotland and thus be active with international/EU support.

      Till then it means hold the line, stand steady. Let them throw everything at us, let them use up their already sparse ammo (duds). Don’t give in cos then we go for them.

    193. K1 says:

      Yes, I see what you meant when you stated:

      ‘I’m thinking that they perhaps do not mean , “A petition”, as in millions of individual signatures signing up to a single written request.

      More as an individual petitioning the EU as an individual citizen with a personal grievance.’

      But if one EU citizen were to draw up a petition that accurately fits their criteria, then every single EU citizen can actually utilise that one template and send it in too. Thereby creating potentially ‘millions of individual’ petitions?

    194. Meg merrilees says:

      Nana @6.49

      Shouldn’t it be only Scottish people that are allowed to sign the petition?

    195. Effijy says:

      Just watched ITV evening news where they did say that NHS England have cancelled a record number of operations.

      Isn’t it terrifying that they do not wish to actually give a number out, and inform people of what is actually happening?

      With the Tory Party systematically destroying the NHS so that they can make money from their shares in private health alternative, I desperately want to know how many NHS England Operations were cancelled in the year 2016.

      UK BUM Media jumped on the shock figure of 3,000 Scottish operations cancelled, which was actually normal as patients doctors and theatre staff become too ill or can’t travel due to weather conditions.

      I consider that over 100,000 English operations must have been cancelled, many due to the Junior Doctor’s strikes, but I want that number the media refuse to give us.

    196. Orri says:

      For all the gloating about how the UK leaving is the only first from the most venomous of Brexiters I might be reading a bit into the fact that polling in support for the EU went up once it was more certain they’d be rid of the moaning faced gits.

    197. Orri says:

      Pretty bigoted petition as it’s only Scots and expat Scots they want to have a vote. Massive postal voting and reducing the number of potential Yes voters will probably be needed in order for No to win next time.

    198. K1 says:

      Correction: ‘drafts’ not ‘draughts’ although when ah think oan it we really would be ‘jumping’ right o’er the heidyin at ‘chequers’ 😉

    199. Robert Peffers says:

      @K1 says: 10 February, 2017 at 6:35 pm:

      ” … On a ‘personal’ level we would have to show clearly and precisely how our citizenship in the EU being denied by the UK gov’s headstrong railroading us out of the EU union causes us ‘personal’ harm. We would need sources and evidence (links) to backup and convey the necessity of the EU commission to intervene on our behalf to protect us in the event of Brexit.
      Something along those lines Robert?”

      That’s about the way I see it but there’s lots of us and there’s lots who will want to have their say on the matter. I’ve no doubt the Rev Stu will have more contacts that he can get help from. Then those who attend branch meetings can speak to MPs. MSPs and Councillors.

      We need to do this carefully and not be too much in haste.

    200. yesindyref2 says:

      Personally I’d be very careful complaining about people. This is a rapid flux time we’re in, and we don’t know who is going to become our friend – perhaps is already. We don’t want to anatagonise them, or potentially put them in a difficult position. I see people in a half-way house in Scotland, and even in the rest of the UK there are Europhiles. Strange but interesting times.

      They are not the same as the usual rabid unionist mob – which I think is getting less.

      Add to that, if anyone can point out a mistake the SNP have made about this EU thing, please feel free to point it out!

    201. heedtracker says:

      FT pile on. Its certainly is set up by UKOK hackdom.

      Brexit myFT 6 HOURS AGO by: Mure Dickie in Edinburgh

      Financial Times

      42 mins ·
      The head of the EU in London also said Scotland would HAVE to adopt the euro

      Scotland faces EU membership queue in event of independence vote
      Brussels’ UK rep says process could be quicker than for others but euro commitment expected

      The European Commission’s representative in the UK has said Scotland would have to “join the list” of countries seeking to join the EU even if it votes for independence ahead of Brexit.”

      As Muir slithers down the FT pooper into some facts n shit.

    202. Marcia says:

      That Referendum petition makes it clear that the No side expect there to be one. The same electorate that voted in 2014 should be the one when the next one happens. I would make one change though, only give postal votes who actually live permanently here and not to anyone who has a holiday home in Scotland.

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @Nana says: 10 February, 2017 at 6:49 pm:

      “Can you smell the fear?

      Is that what it is? I thought I’d trodden in something.
      :-))

      “Someone has set up a petition stating
      EU citizens to not be allowed to vote in any Scottish independence referendum
      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/830103350507139072

      Are these idiots for real, Nana?

      Every UK citizen is also an EU Citizen yet this numptie wants them, that is everyone on the voters register in Scotland, excluded from voting in a Scottish referendum?

      Just how bloody idiotic can they get?

    204. galamcennalath says:

      David Tennant comes out of Indy.

      OK, some might say, just another celeb. However, every little adds to the pattern that Indy could become the conformist accepted opinion.

      And to detract from that prevailing orthodoxy necomes the domain of the loony right fringe.

      Now that is a goal to aim for!

    205. G4jeepers says:

      Nana@

      SICK.

      66 signatories from Perth and North Perthshire, highest volume by far, everywhere else just one or two. 8 North Edinburgh.

      Sad, got relatives in Perthshire 🙁
      Hope they’re okay, they’re from Aberdeen originally…

    206. Meg merrilees says:

      Nana

      the petition above has only increased by one vote since highlighted on twitter 2 hours ago.

    207. Tinto Chiel says:

      HandandShrimp @6.22: I hope so, my friend. Since I gave up on MSM a long time ago, I have no idea what Will Hutton’s present thoughts are of the Brexit situation. If The Rev doesn’t refer to the ravings of MSM, I don’t get to hear of them. I was appalled at Hutton’s ignorance of the true nature of the Yes movement three years ago, because he had seemed a pretty smart guy.

      On the wider issue, I have this simple, naive and probably unrealistic dream which goes as follows:

      The Kingdom of England has voted to leave the EU.

      The Kingdom of Scotland has voted strongly to remain.

      There is no mechanism to expel EU citizens from that union.

      Thus, Brexit is a deal-breaker for the 1707 Union.

      England can go, Scotland can stay, and, following a brief hand-shake and the usual pleasantries (!), we can go our separate ways, with Scotland taking the EU place of the fUK, no mess, no fuss.

      Let’s then divide the UK assets and liabilities in a sensible negotiation and we can look forward to a bright, constructive future for Scotland in a progressive and reforming EU. What can England look forward to?

      Wearing my tin-foil homburg tonight, I know, but hope springs eternal.

    208. JoMac says:

      Awfy sorry, Robert, but I’m afraid you’ve got this whole ‘British’ history stuff a’ wrong.

      I cannot post the link or ‘capture’ the video, but someone else might manage, but it seems that a wummin in the Question Time audience yesterday at Torbay has given us the cut and dried facts in reply to comments from Owen Smith. Here’s part of what she said from the wee bit video posted online:

      “For thousands of years, Britain has ruled the world in a wonderful way, we’ve been the light of the world, and now that we’re trying to get out of this stupid EU…blahblahblah”.

      So there you have it folks. Now you know. And she got a big round of applause from Ann Widdecombe, one time Conservative MP and now better known for having two very right feet which got her in a right old Tango. I haven’t watched QT for years. Nae wonder.

    209. Lenny Hartley says:

      Did Blacadder or Baldrick phrase this petition ?
      “EU citzens should not be allowed to vote in future Scottish Referendums it be for Scottish/Scottish living outside Scotland only.” going by the wording don’t think English is their first language 🙂

    210. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT But the Independent has managed to mention three times in one short piece that the moronic Tory student is related
      ( distantly ) to Ms Sturgeon.

      Written by one Peter Walker , who appears to think himself a journalist. I have news for Mr Walker.

    211. Craig Murray says:

      Galacennamlath – is there a link to the David Tennant news? He was down the line Labour before. I am very pleased if true because of this.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/books/murder-in-samarkand/radio-play/

    212. DerekM says:

      @ indyref2

      I agree lots of people`s eyes just opening and looking for information tread softly out their guys they are not all foaming at the gub britnats just some scared and confused people mainly English.

      It is that what is the EU google search the day after all over again.

      Yoons know this so have plastered the UK in a coordinated lie.

    213. galamcennalath says:

      Lenny Hartley says:

      don’t think English is their first language

      Like the Tories who seem Hell bent on putting the Grate back in Britain!

    214. Orri says:

      No postal votes, no proxies. People’s natural instinct is to assume either of those should be in line with votes cast in person. I want an exit poll next time if only to reassure me about the validity of the result. I’d rather lose my own vote if ill or on holiday than make manipulation of the ballot easy.

    215. Nana says:

      @Robert

      Well Robert, whoever started that petition is pretty stupid. Could it be Murdo Fraser as some folk are suggesting?

      @Meg

      Wow one vote in two hours, that has to be a record lol

    216. Meg merrilees says:

      Browsing the BBC website tonight.
      A big article about innovation in the NHS – cites examples that have worked including, the second example, set in Glasgow. Here, elderly patients are moved out of hospital into nearby nursing homes to prevent bed-blocking

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38879439

      “The intermediate care programme, as it is called, was set up in 2014 by Glasgow City Council and NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde.”

      Correct me if i’m wrong but the ‘Intermediate Care’ programme was initiated by the Scottish Government, (the SNP Government) in 2012 – surely some credit should be shared?

      Interesting fact:
      “Last week, figures showed there were only 24 patients aged over 65 who had been delayed leaving hospital. That compares with 140 people in 2014.”

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Support-Social-Care/Independent-Living/Intermediate-Care

    217. Rock says:

      “Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.”

      (We suspect there might actually be some heavy sarcasm in there, given that as it’s currently in the EU, all of Scotland’s legislation is of course already fully compliant.)”

      I don’t think there is any sarcasm in there.

      It is a very clear statement of the truth.

      Scotland is NOT a member of the EU.

      If Brexit happens before it becomes independent, it will have to apply for EU membership when it becomes independent.

      The EU will not listen to Scotland as long as it is part of the UK.

      As the EU official says, it would “presumably not be too difficult for Scotland” to become a member.

      She has chosen her words very well.

      The longer Scotland remains in the UK after Brexit, the more difficult it will become, because the laws that matter are made at Westminster.

      All EU laws would be quickly struck off by Westminster after Brexit.

      Scotland can only get the best deals possible from both the EU and the UK if it becomes independent before Brexit happened.

    218. Rock says:

      yesindyref2,

      “but very differently – precisely as The National did over this story. It was very positive, the rest were negative.”

      Did The National have it as a HEADLINE saying “Top EU official says independent Scotland could easily become EU member”?

    219. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Other than the sheer boneheaded logic fail inherent in the proposal, that petition tells you something.

      They’re afraid.

      The author and supporters of such a proposition know what they have done, both in terms of the utter failure to trap in their indyref assurances and of course the betrayal of continental EU residents of the UK through the nature of brexit as it has been approached and handled by the UK.

      I suspect the author KNOWS what they have done is wrong and morally indefensible. They also realise that the other shoe will almost certainly drop if those citizens are given half a chance to right the wrong done to them.

      Safe to say, their slip is most definitely showing Nana. 😉

    220. Les Wilson says:

      The petition may say simply. Should people residing in Scotland approach the EU, in order to have our European rights protected.
      If you agree sign YES.

      Footnote. A legal lawyers letter will then be issued to the appropriate EU legal body, outlining how are rights as European citizens are being eroded, and will be removed against our will after the UK Brexit departure.

    221. Hamish100 says:

      Nana says:
      10 February, 2017 at 6:49 pm
      Can you smell the fear

      Someone has set up a petition stating

      EU citizens to not be allowed to vote in any Scottish independence referendum

      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/830103350507139072

      That means all of Scotland? Shouldnt we just exclude all brexiters?

    222. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 7.30pm

      Smashing post old boy, well said.

      I have long held, we on the Independence side, should be using the Act of Union more to fight our case.

      The first EU referendum was held in 1975, and by a 67%-33% the UK electorate voted to remain inside the “Common Market” we had joined two years or so previously.

      The only two areas of the UK to vote leave were the Outer Hebrides and Shetland – therefore, both of the Kingdoms within the United Kingdom voted to remain in the Europe institution.

      The UK-wide Alternative Vote Referendum of 2011 also saw both Kingdoms generally in agreement, Alternative Vote failed to win support in either England and Scotland.

      Thus, in neither of these two nationwide referendums, was there a difference of opinion between the two parties to the Act of Union which formed the UK.

      However, in the 2016 EU Referendum, there was a distinct difference between the two kingdoms, with England voting leave and Scotland voting to remain.

      Given the kingdoms are supposed to be equal, for England to insist that the UK must leave, is clearly a breach of the Act of Union. They are imposing their Larger population’s decision on an equal partner in the Union.

      Given that the SNP-Green representation in the Scottish parliament has a majority in favour of Independence, and the 56 SNP-Independent Scottish MPs at Westminster means there is a majority of Scottish MPs in favour of Independence; there is an overwhelming case for the ending of the Act of Union.

      The SNP should perhaps be making this claim to the European Union institutions and to the United Nations, the latter organisation having a say on the grounds of a nation’s right to self-determination.

      Am I onto something, or talking shite? Hopefully Mr Peffers can tell me.

    223. crazycat says:

      @ Rock

      The National’s headline is:
      Independent Scotland meets criteria for EU membership, says top official

      That good enough for ye?

    224. Dorothy Devine says:

      G4jeepers, thanks that cheered me up too and stopped me making voodoo dolls of journalists.

    225. Scott says:

      Russia is said to have got Trump elected now we have BBC saying Sputknit is trying to help Scottish independence.

      Russian embassy blasts claims Sputnik news agency aiming to ‘encourage’ Scottish independence

      https://on.rt.com/82vv

      I wonder how long the papers will take to report on this.

    226. Rock says:

      Proud Cybernat,

      “The VOW is what swung it back for NO – not Scotland being chucked out of the EU.”

      Which group of voters do you think changed from Yes to No because of the “vow”?

      In my view, the ones that might have changed were the working class voters who were scared to death by the likes of Asda, not swung by the “vow”.

      The British Nationalist elderly and the vast majority of the selfish middle class and the English were never going to vote Yes and will never vote Yes.

      Don’t waste limited resources trying to persuade them.

      These groups turn out to vote in large numbers.

      Faced with this very major stumbling block, the only chance of Yes winning would be persuading close to 100% of the working classes and unemployed to go out and vote Yes.

      Assuming that we could ever get a vote without postal votes fraud and rigging.

    227. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nana @ 18:49, Lenny Hartley @ 19:38,

      “aaaar, it be, so it be…”

      Not Blackadder/Baldrick, someone from “The Archers” surely?

      And this “Scottish living outside Scotland” is a dead giveaway – it’s another of those right-wing southern Leavers acting as (dimwit) provocateur. (Please note, Blair Paterson.)

      Just another false friend. Ho-hum.

    228. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh God, the CRock shift is on again

      “Crock: something considered to be complete nonsense”

      Yup.

    229. Rock says:

      Brian Powell,

      “Scotland voted to stay in the EU and the EU says we want to help, but you need to be an independent country.”

      Exactly.

      Without independence, we are nothing, even if we keep on shouting we are “sovereign” from the rooftops for the next 300 years.

      For the benefit of yesindyref2, only “colonies” talk about having an “independence” referendum and becoming “independent”.

      “yesindyref2,

      “”@Rock “colony”
      Here you go, see if you can find Scotland anywhere here, or elsewhere on the UN pages on decolonisation:

      http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/nonselfgovterritories.shtml

      No, I thought not. So Scotland is not a colony.”

    230. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      Yeah, I got to the Grun via Davidson retweeting him and found him “correcting” poor Kate Devlin. Now I can see where the misinformation is coming from – Severin is respected for some reason. Well, it’s not integrity and “accuracy” that’s for sure.

    231. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock,

      It’s about time for the “300 years” one next, isn’t it? Or is that on the rota for the next shift?

      You’re a stuck record. Nothing’s possible, it’s all too hard, etc., etc. I honestly don’t know why you bother even coming here, unless you’re actually getting paid for it.

      It’s boring, boring, boring, boring, zzzzzzz….

    232. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock,

      Oh, you just beat me to it. =laugh= Got it in again while I was still typing.

      You’re that predictable!

    233. crazycat says:

      @ Rock

      You’ve posted twice since I answered your question about The National at 8.23 – unlike you not to comment.

    234. Tinto Chiel says:

      Socrates: thanks, but just flying a kite. What do I know? The thing is, post-Brexit, what does anyone know? I think Realpolitik will come in to play, and anything can happen. Never underestimate the sheet Pissedoffness (TM) the EU feel with Westminster and its arrogance.

      Btw, being a sports newspaper guy, did you ever know Jimmy Buchan, Scottish Daily Express in the 70s? Played in the same amateur team as him. Seemed a top guy, mainly because he thought the Ancell Babes were God-given.

      For younger readers, the Ancell Babes are not what you think……

    235. Jim says:

      “Coyne is a first year Law student at Pembroke College the nephew of the First Minister’s sister-in-law’s ex-husband.”

      What the actual fuck, lol.
      They are not related or connected in any meaningful way whatsoever, get a fucking grip.

    236. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      I forget the full list of parlour tricks but I think next is something like “green bad, sturgeon slow, peffers bad, some random poster bad, only Scots with great-great-great …grandparents can vote”

    237. Rock says:

      Greannach,

      “The great thing is hardly anyone buys or reads these papers.”

      But most people can’t escape the glaring lying headlines which are on display everywhere.

      And they get lodged in the inner consciousness of folks.

      If the “independence supporting” The National had glaring pro-independence headlines, they too could reach the inner consciousness of folks who notice them.

      That is the reason they avoid them like the plague.

      The National does not support independence. It is a milking cow for gullible independence supporters. Fortunately, there are not more than 20,000 of them.

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      Sean Clerkin?

    239. Beor says:

      No queue – just to knock this nonsense on the head for good: I was the chief correspondent for the negotiation of a key “chapter” of the 2004 enlargement treaty. The sequence is simple; you have to meet the so-called Copenhagen criteria (Scotland) does, then there is a scoping exercise looking at the compatibility of existing legislation (Scotland already complies) followed by a “chapter” by chapter negotiation to determine when and how the candidate country will transpose the acquis- not a problem since Scotland is already compliant.

      Scotland’s membership would be a relatively simple process taking less than a year.

      All the rest is bullshit.

    240. crazycat says:

      Hello Rock at 9.03

      Now you’re posting about newspaper headlines again, are you going to acknowledge my answer to you at 8.23?

      I’ll repeat it:

      “The National’s headline is:
      Independent Scotland meets criteria for EU membership, says top official

      That good enough for ye?”

      If that ain’t “glaring”, what is?

    241. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Tinto Chiel

      I met Jimmy Buchan a couple of times only, so, I cannot really say I knew him.

      The Ancell Babes. I was at Ibrox the night they thumped Rangers 5-2. Still speak to Ian St John occasionally. Willie Hunter was another nice guy. Had a coupl of interesting and informative interviews with Pat Quinn, who sadly, is now suffering somewhat from Dementia.

      A great team.

    242. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “What is more, as we are EU citizens, we have EU Citizens rights.

      Wingers I urge you to read what your EU Citizenship rights actually are. Then perhaps we may discuss and debate how best to use our EU citizen’s rights.”

      EU rights disappear when a EU member leaves the EU.

      When the UK member state leaves the EU, the EU rights of those living in the UK’s North British region will disappear.

      As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is a part of the UK member state.

      It is not rocket science.

      In addition to shouting we are “sovereign” from the rooftops, we can start shouting we are “EU citizens” from the rooftops.

      As long as we are part of the UK, nobody will pay the slightest attention.

    243. ronnie anderson says:

      That Rob Dunsmore petition ( it be Scottish ) hiv Wingers geid up pedantry. Ah could have write’d it betterur .

    244. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 21:02,

      You forgot “National bad”. That came round next. But the rest is sure to follow…

      Sad, really.

    245. galamcennalath says:

      Craig Murray says:

      – is there a link to the David Tennant news?

      From The Rev’s Twitter ….

      https://mobile.twitter.com/timesmagazine/status/830099036883525634

    246. Chick McGregor says:

      If the rEU decided post Brexit to confer EU citizenship on all registered Scottish voters as an acknowledgement that Scotland voted remain by a large majority, there is nothing (sane) the rUK can do about that, even if Scotland is still in the UK.

      And they are considering it, among other options.

    247. Tam Jardine says:

      I see the Times have obtained a leaked list of the UK Government’s list of priorities for their brexit negotiations divided into High, Medium and Low.

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-government-support-industries-ranked-high-priority-low-leaked-document-2017-2?r=US&IR=T

      High priority

      Pharmaceuticals, automotive, textiles and clothing, aerospace, air transport, gas markets, agriculture, broadcasting, electricity, financial services, land transport (excluding rail), insurance, food and drink, and banking and market infrastructure.

      Medium priority

      Electronics, fisheries, chemicals, furniture and other manufacturing, parts and machinery.

      Low priority

      Steel construction, oil and gas, telecoms, post, environmental services, water, medical, retail, education, and professionals and business services.

      So- nice to see that both myself and my wife work in “Low Priority” industries. I note I share that category with all the North Sea Tigers. Funny ol’ brexit, innit?

    248. galamcennalath says:

      Tam Jardine says:

      UK Government’s list of priorities for their brexit negotiations … Low …. medical

      Obviously, because US companies will be delivery all our medical needs!

    249. Rock says:

      crazycat,

      “@ Rock

      The National’s headline is:
      Independent Scotland meets criteria for EU membership, says top official

      That good enough for ye?”

      Headline on the front page?

      I would have to see it to believe it.

    250. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      I thought it had already done that, must have been wrong. I wish someone gave it a bone then it’d be off “woof woof”. I see it’s got to peffers on the list, did we forget any?

    251. Graeme says:

      I dont post much here but I read the posts every day and I’ve noticed Rock gets a bad rap which may or may not be justified, but regarding his spats with Robert Peffers and sovereignty, I think both are right and both are wrong.
      Robert is correct in as much we are sovereign on paper but we have allowed this union to strip us of that sovereignty de facto which is where Rock is correct.

      As long as we remain in this union we will never be sovereign regardless of what the act of union says

      Fortunately the fact we are still sovereign de jure (on paper) means we can take our sovereignty back, they cannot stop us and when we do Europe will welcome us like the prodigal son

      Graeme

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tam Jardine
      Think yourself lucky you’re even on the list, we’re not. Tourism (10% in Scotland) isn’t even on it. Ouch – visas. How long’s your visit? 2 weeks? Come back in a week and we’ll let you in. Maybe. We might not let you stay the full week, check in at your nearest border force office every day. No, it’s very close, only 400 miles away.

    253. yesindyref2 says:

      ” No, it’s very close, only 400 miles away.”

      …”Just look for the Stars and Stripes and the number – 51″.

    254. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tam Jardine @ 21:28,

      Very interesting that, Tam. Well, there at least goes “Academics for no” in indyref2!

      Joining a long and growing list of switchers, no doubt. (Maybe even the fisherfolk will eventually join too, though that may possibly require another backstabbing first.)

      (Whew, I nearly wrote “queue” there instead of “list”. =grin=)

    255. Tinto Chiel says:

      Socrates: just about to post something on O/T on that head.

    256. heedtracker says:

      The National does not support independence. It is a milking cow for gullible independence supporters. Fortunately, there are not more than 20,000 of them

      Love it or loath it Rock, one newspaper is not going to win Scotland back for the people of Scotland. Hate to break that to you, again:D

    257. crazycat says:

      @ Rock

      The headline occurs both above an article on pages 4-5 and on the front page, bottom left, in capitals.

      To get an online version identical to the paper one, a subscription is required. I can’t post a link for you.

      So, if you want to see it yourself, you’ve got 2 hours and 14 minutes to get to somewhere that sells it.

      Let me know when you get back.

    258. Rock says:

      I can’t wait for Robert Peffers to make a petition to the EU, regarding EU rights of UK citizens living in North Britain.

      They might not reply before Brexit has been completed and the UK, along with its North British region, is out of the EU.

      But if a reply does come before Brexit is completed, I can predict with 100% confidence that it would say something like this:

      “All citizens of a EU member state have EU rights.

      If a member state leaves the EU, its citizens no longer have EU rights.

      If and when the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens will no longer have EU rights.

      UK citizens living in Scotland too will lose their EU rights.

      If and when Scotland becomes independent, it can apply to become a member of the EU.

      If its application for membership is granted, Scottish citizens, some of whom might insist on being called “British”, will have EU rights.

      An independent Scotland would have a very good chance of being accepted as a EU member if it was independent and ready to apply for membership on the day Brexit takes effect.

      We would recommend that you don’t wait for 300 more years before becoming independent.”

    259. Tam the Bam. says:

      @Rock 9.03

      ‘The National does not support Independence.’

      Maybe spent too long staring at the Lunar Eclipse this evening?

    260. Rock says:

      crazycat,

      “@ Rock

      “and on the front page, bottom left, in capitals.”

      That is hardly a glaring headline then.

      Pray tell me what the real headline is?

    261. One_Scot says:

      Graeme, you should post more often.

    262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I hate saying this, since a wide variety of views can offer opportunities for better understanding, but when we’re down to arguing about the size of the headlines on the front page of The National, I think we’re done. I really do.

    263. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      These Yoon newspapers are complete amatuers when it comes to knowing Scotland’s place in Europe.

      The Grand Master of all things Scottish regarding Europe is non other that Glen Campbell of BBC Scotland.

      He slithered around Europe during IndyRef1 hoping to get some minister from some foreign land to say on camera that Scotland had no chance of joining the EU after we voted for Independence.

      And if he didn’t get an exact quote he was looking for, oor Glen just made it up.

      Lowlife snake in the grass scumbag!!!

    264. crazycat says:

      @ Rock

      You said you’d have to see it for yourself. Go and look.

      I’m well aware that you are never going to change your tune, but it is very revealing that you are making assertions about The National’s stance without even looking at it.

      It supports an independent Scotland. To do that, it doesn’t have to mention independence in every headline, every day. The issue here was how it reported the EU official’s remarks. It did so in a positive way, including flagging it up on the front page.

    265. Croompenstein says:

      National front page

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

      Chaos…

    266. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland

      Sorry, Robert.

      You posted while I was typing. You are no doubt right that exposing eejitry is pointless and a waste of space/time. I’ll desist.

    267. Tam Jardine says:

      yesindyref2

      Well- the government are claiming the leak contains incomplete information so maybe tourism is in another category- “Very High” priority perhaps… who knows! “Come to xenophobic, insular Brexit UK” is not going to be a winner along the lines of “Cool Britannia” unfortunately.

      I see it is being dismissed thus: “However, a source said the list does not reflect the government’s view of the importance of the sector but rather the level of work needed to assist them through the Brexit process.”

      Aye- that is exactly how the UK Government works. They think in terms of who needs the most help. It is the impression one gets of the tories- just a bunch of helpful folk wanting to help people out so they list sectors by who needs their help. Aye- that is just how it is, eh!

    268. Rock says:

      Graeme,

      “Robert is correct in as much we are sovereign on paper”

      Thanks for taking a balanced view. But Robert Peffers is not correct.

      Our alleged “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it was written on.

      The “plebs” had no voting (or other} rights when it was written.

      How can the vast majority of the population which has no say in anything be “sovereign”?

      Voting rights only came from Westminster laws long after the union.

      To this days, the right to vote, mostly in undemocratic elections, and when a vote is offered, is basically the only political right that the “plebs” have.

      They can’t call an election, they can’t demand a referendum, they can’t force their elected representatives to vote in the way they want.

      If anyone gets the “sovereignty” back, LEGALLY it would be the landed classes who had it, not us the “plebs”.

      The “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign” and never will be until we become an independent country with a written constitution guaranteeing equal rights to all.

      Judges, who are the lowest of the low in my view, should not be above the law and must be subjected to severe punishment for miscarriages of justice.

      The judges responsible for the Lockerbie miscarriage should be rotting in jail.

      Even if Robert Peffers was right, which he isn’t, bragging about being “sovereign” is completely useless in Scotland’s attempts to becoming independent.

    269. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Croompenstein

      I can see that National front page changing, very soon.

      Efter awe youse Cybernats hisnae a scooby whit is important in North Britain – this business wi the Magic Hat resigning, or no’ is the biggest story in the wurld.

      If the National wants tae sell papers ra morra, whit is gaun oan at Ibrox wull hive tae be ra front page.

      We arra peepul.

      Sorry chaps, I don’t know what came over me there.

    270. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 22:12,

      (No need. It wasn’t you I had in mind, my friend.)

    271. yesindyref2 says:

      Tag-team

    272. heraldnomore says:

      Rock there’s only one thing completely useless in Scotland’s attempts to becoming independent – so do us all a favour will you. Do I need to spell out the rest?

    273. Rock says:

      crazycat,

      “To do that, it doesn’t have to mention independence in every headline, every day.”

      It has to if it flogs itself as an “independence supporting” newspaper.

      Forget about every day. A glaring front page top headline once a week with a WOS style article beneath it would be a good start.

      Yesterday, WOS exposed the lies about the Scottish NHS. Did The National have it as a glaring front page top headline?

      No.

      Today, WOS exposed the lies about the EU. Did The National have it as a glaring front page top headline?

      No.

      Tomorrow, WOS will expose more unionist lies. Will The National have it as a glaring front page top headline?

      No.

      Has The National increased support for independence in its two years’ existence?

      No.

    274. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The Express, Times, Guardian, and Telegraph are not the Scottish media, no matter if they add ‘Scotland’/’Scottish’ as a prefix or suffix to the title of their publications.

      However, I appreciate the vigilance. Always amusing to see how low they crawl.

    275. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”

      (From “A division of principles”)

      Shows how much faith you have in this website and its author.

      How many posts do you make in The National every day?

    276. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I must admit, the ongoing spat between Rock and Robert Peffers over Scottish sovereignty has long had me as an interested onlooker.

      Rock has a point, I feel, when he asserts that Scottish sovereignty maybe belongs to the landed gentry. After all, it was the Scottish nobles who wrote to the Pope in 1320 in the Declaration of Arbroath, which is the basis for the assertion that Scottish sovereignty resides with the people of Scotland.

      However, our English neighbours take great delight in quoting Magna Carta (did she die in vain – to quote that great Tony Hancock one-liner). Again, it was the nobles who pushed Magna Carta through, but, today, the common people of England put a great deal of emphasis on Magna Carta.

      For me, I reckon, the nobles wrote the Declaration of Arbroath, but, we should claim the benefit and embrace sovereignty being in the gift of the people of Scotland.

      Universal franchise only happened after WWI – more than 200 years after the ACt of Union, but, it has happened, so, I reckon that kicks Rock’s notion that only the landed gentry can reclaim Scottish sovereignty into the long grass.

      The fact that, for over 300-years we Scots allowed the English to play fast and loose with the Act of Union is a totally different argument. Maybe we didn’t work hard enough over these 300-years to safeguard our sovereignty, but, we never gave it up. We are still sovereign and this sovereignty could yet be a major factor in us getting our Independence.

    277. Meg merrilees says:

      Nana the referendum petition re who should be allowed to sign hasn’t increased – still on 291 since about 5pm tonight!!!

    278. Rock says:

      crazycat,

      “it is very revealing that you are making assertions about The National’s stance without even looking at it”

      Why would I want to look at a wolf in sheep’s clothing?

      Just as Scottish Labour was exposed as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so will The National.

      When the time comes for a second independence referendum, it will reveal its true colours.

      It did its best to deny the SNP a majority government by heavily promoting the Greens.

    279. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      10 February, 2017 at 10:30 pm
      heedtracker

      Rock, for what its worth, every chance I get, I kick the virtual shit out of the real and present enemy of Scotland, the tories.

      Fcuk knows what you think you’re achieving. Its like watching the red tories or the Green twerps desperately trying to sneak their way back in to power. Its not working Rock.

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @Les Wilson says: 10 February, 2017 at 8:16 pm:

      “The petition may say simply. Should people residing in Scotland approach the EU, in order to have our European rights protected.
      If you agree sign YES.”

      I may be wrong, Les, but I get the impression they don’t mean that kind of petition. The kind where everyone signs a long list. I think they mean that any individual EU citizen can petition for a wrong done to them personally. That would mean everyone would need to raise their own grievance individually.

      It wouldn’t be a problem, though. We just all fill our personal details in and send it in. It will then be up to them to group them together. It will, after all be identical complains. It will leave the EU in no doubts that Scotland is an individual Kingdom & country and the UK is a bipartite union of kingdoms and not as Westminster claims it is – a single country or even a single Kingdom of four countries.

    281. yesindyref2 says:

      Well night all I’m off, thread dead.

    282. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 22:21,

      That’s the only posting you have made in a while that to me has at least some grain of sense in it. I myself find that at times The National seems more interested in promoting Cat Boyd and her little band of fellow-travellers than in independence. Some more hard-hitting pro-indy stories, and maybe (eg.) an exposé of Scotland in Union wouldn’t go amiss either. But I guess they’re on a very limited budget, and they are still a damn sight better than the so-called Scottish versions of the English rags, not to mention others like the P&J. So keep it in perspective.

      Can’t you realise that if you’re bemoaning everything, post after post, day after day, with depressive scattergun condemnation of everything and everybody, mostly imaginary, that you are simply wrecking your own credibility on here?

      It’s the old story of “cry wolf”.

      Just think on that, please. For all our sakes.

    283. Rock says:

      Socrates MacSporran,

      “but, it has happened, so, I reckon that kicks Rock’s notion that only the landed gentry can reclaim Scottish sovereignty into the long grass.”

      No, it doesn’t.

      Universal franchise from Westminster does not give “sovereignty” to the “plebs”.

      Westminster gets “sovereignty”.

      Neither the Declaration of Arbroath, nor Universal franchise gives “sovereignty” to the “plebs”.

      The “plebs” have neither constitutional nor legal “sovereignty”. Never did.

    284. Meg merrilees says:

      Yesindyref2

      What do you think?
      Atlantic Bridge member?

      http://www.politico.eu/article/12-heroes-make-2017-great-again-delightful-dozen-roger-federer-adama-barrow-ruth-davidson-james-mattis/

      (t)Ruthless Davidson one of 12 heroes who will make 2017 great again….!!!
      where have we heard that phrase…?
      Make America great again,
      make a global Britain great again – gave the game away really!

    285. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Crazycat & Rock.

      Here’s the story at archive.is so Rock can read it without contributing to the coffers of The herald…

      http://archive.is/97nLB

    286. Graeme says:

      Rock says:
      10 February, 2017 at 10:12

      If anyone gets the “sovereignty” back, LEGALLY it would be the landed classes who had it, not us the “plebs”.

      Well that maybe true I’m not qualified to argue I do know it was our bankrupt gentry (morally & financially) who sold our sovereignty but it is us plebs who will get it back in spite of your negativity

      Graeme

    287. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland,

      “But I guess they’re on a very limited budget”

      Nothing to do with a “limited budget”.

      They could pay the Rev. Stuart Campbell a modest fee for writing their front page headline and accompanying article every day.

      The National’s only purpose is to milk gullible independence supporters by flogging itself as an “independence supporting” newspaper.

      “you are simply wrecking your own credibility on here?”

      If my credibility is wrecked by pointing out the truth, so be it.

      I have no desire for a Robert Peffers type pretendy credibility.

    288. scotspine says:

      I have developed a strategy whilst reading posts on this site.

      Ignore, do not read and by-pass Rock, SensibleDave and all the other Trolls.

      Makes for a more satisfying read.

      Cant be bothered with antagonistic, annoying pricks.

    289. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Rock

      Well done my man – you just proved yourself to be a bawbag.

      You set out to disprove my assertion that universal sufferage gave Scottish sovereignty to the entire people of Scotland and not merely the descendents of the nobles who petitioned the Pope via the Declaration of Arbroath.

      BUT, you never touched Magna Carta, which is exactly the same.

      The nobles were the only people who could petition the Pope in 1320, just as the nobles were the only people who could drag King John to Runymede in 1215.

      So, if Magna Carta was so-great and is still quoted, why not the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Also, the statement of the Declaration of Arbroath was the basis for the people of Scotland getting control of Scottish sovereignty. This sovereignty is enshrined in the Act of Union. Sovereignty of the people of Scotland was already a part of Scots Law when the Act/Treaty of Union was signed in 1707. One of the clauses of that Act/Treaty enshrined the permanancy of Scots Law.

      Therefore, since Scots Law is still permanent in 2017, the people of Scotland STILL hold Scotland’s sovereignty.

    290. Rock says:

      Graeme,

      “Well that maybe true I’m not qualified to argue I do know it was our bankrupt gentry (morally & financially) who sold our sovereignty but it is us plebs who will get it back in spite of your negativity”

      I have never expressed any negativity about the “plebs” getting “sovereinty”.

      My point is they will only get it for the first time and only by voting for independence.

      Not by shouting from the rooftops that we are “sovereign”.

    291. Rock says:

      Socrates MacSporran,

      “BUT, you never touched Magna Carta, which is exactly the same.”

      Magna Carta does not apply to Scotland.

      Don’t tell me you and Robert Peffers will rely on it to claim your “sovereignty”.

    292. crazycat says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      Thanks – but as he’s said, he has no interest in reading it.

      Some people start with evidence and draw conclusions from it.
      Some people start with the conclusions and flail around to find evidence to fit.

      Some people apparently start with the conclusions and explictly refuse to look at the evidence.

      That’s not how I was taught to present a valid argument.

    293. Fireproofjim says:

      Rock
      You are a sad obsessive and …………..,,no I just can’t be bothered.
      Goodnight. You too Rock.

    294. Lenny Hartley says:

      Les Wilson wasting your time petitioning the EU. One of my mates did it around jan 2014 , cant remember exactly what his petition was, but they kicked it into the long grass and don’t think he has an answer yet. Basically the lawyers said he was correct and the politicians said that they could not answer as it was too political or something along those lines, I’ll get the facts from him tomorrow.

    295. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If anyone hears of solid details about the venue and time of next week’s Glasgow recording of BBC QT, could you please let me know directly?

      ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com

      No big secrecy involved, just that some of us are no longer reading regular threads as closely as usual because of that arse-wart ‘Rock’ hogging the place every night with his interminable pish.

      If we know where and when guests will be arriving (can’t just assume it’ll be PQ) we can be there to welcome them in typically peaceful and good-humoured ‘Friends of Wings’ style.

      Hoots all, and mind ye’s don’t trip over that glaur-slaked boulder…

    296. Rock says:

      Socrates MacSporran,

      “Sovereignty of the people of Scotland was already a part of Scots Law when the Act/Treaty of Union was signed in 1707.”

      If it was, it was not worth the paper it was written on.

      Could you provide the exact wording as it existed in 1707.

      The vast majority of the people of Scotland did not have the right to vote in 1707.

      How can people without a vote be “sovereign”?

    297. Hamish100 says:

      rock

      I buy the National– will continue to do so. Doesn’t make me a Unionist.

      I asked you before — do you by the Mail, Express, Record? You never answered just dropped off that blog until you return again to moan about something else.

      So lets try again. What paper do you read?

    298. Rock says:

      scotspine,

      “I have developed a strategy whilst reading posts on this site.

      Ignore, do not read and by-pass Rock”

      That is a good strategy.

      Especially if you can’t counter Rock’s points and have to resort to insults.

    299. Rock says:

      Lenny Hartley,

      “Les Wilson wasting your time petitioning the EU.”

      See I was right (9:52 pm).

    300. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock,

      You have monopolised this thread latterly and completely wrecked it. Maybe you find this a success in your own limited terms for the sake of your own obviously fragile ego, but I assure you that it’s been no help whatever for the cause of independence that you claim to espouse. Just another long moan, the latest of many.

      If you’re so damn sure of what is needed, either start your own moaner blog where all the depressives can gather round to adore, or write an article of your own for whatever paper you prefer to The National.

      Something positive, at least, somewhere.

      But preferably anywhere but here. Your miserable blether has become an annoying distraction and a complete waste of space.

    301. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert J Sutherland @11.19 well said

    302. Rock says:

      Hamish100,

      “rock

      I buy the National– will continue to do so. Doesn’t make me a Unionist.”

      Unionists don’t buy The National. It is not meant for them. They buy The National’s older sister, The Herald.

      “I asked you before — do you by the Mail, Express, Record?”

      No, none.

    303. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 11.19 well said

    304. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Rock

      Awa an bile yer heid ya bawbag. Ah’ve goat better things tae dae at this time oan a Friday nicht than argue wi’ a tosser like yersel whau canny read an understaun posts.

      Ye are a troll richt enough, an there wis me, gein ye the benefit o’ the doot.

    305. Joemcg says:

      Rock-I actually agree with a lot of what you say, I’m one of your few supporters which in turn gets me into trouble, but come on man, lighten up!! Post something positive! I’m more confident of us winning at this present time since the heady days of yes supporters swamping the streets of Scotland in 2014 and you should be too! Cheer up bro!

    306. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graeme says: 10 February, 2017 at 9:37 pm:

      ” … Robert is correct in as much we are sovereign on paper but we have allowed this union to strip us of that sovereignty de facto which is where Rock is correct.”

      That, Graeme is rubbish. Unlike Rock, I don’t just state something I explain it and/or offer proofs.

      Here’s the logic – Scottish law is the active law that operates in Scotland. Scottish jurisdiction is internationally recognised. As evidence by the Lockerbie Bomber’s Trial. Both the USA and the UK attempted to claim legal jurisdiction but the trial was held under Scots Law. Even the area it was held in had to be temporarily ruled to be Scottish Territory.

      Scots law is alive and in everyday use and is independent of English law. Scots law is based upon the people of Scotland being legally Sovereign and even recent law applies that sovereignty.

      No private person in Scotland can legally clamp a vehicle parked on private land and demand payment to release it. They are charged with Demanding Money with Menace. Because the people are sovereign and thus legally own Scotland.

      Also Scots have right to roam with a couple of exceptions and there is no English style crime of Trespass in Scotland because as sovereign we own Scotland.

      We have never ever given up our legal sovereignty and have made several Claim of Rights, (that’s we have claimed our sovereignty).

      Now here’s another legal proof and this time it is English Law. When James VI of Scotland inherited the crown of England English law would not allow him to become James I of Britain because as he was not sovereign under Scottish Law he could not use English law, (Divine Right of Kings in 1603), because he was not sovereign in Scotland. Ergo the kingdom of Scotland was not his to add England to.

      In 1688 England, (the Kingdom), became a Constitutional Monarchy but it could not apply to Scotland because Scotland was still an independent Kingdom and remained so until the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.

      In 1688 English Law created a legal precedent that a sovereign, just by being sovereign, could not give up the sovereignty because it did not belong to the monarch personally but to the kingdom. This is why monarchs can only abdicate the crown and it immediately passes to the next in line to the throne.

      Westminster has set itself up as sovereign over Scotland but there is nothing in either Scottish nor English law that indicates they have done so legally. That is, there is no legislation to show that they have sovereignty. All evidence says they have not.

      Rock talks utter pish and has never yet even offered any other argument than, “because I say so”, – and that is exactly what Westminster’s claim amounts to too.

      I expect you will now go and get Rock’s evidence to prove your point? BTW: Do you know the meaning of, “De Facto”?

      Here’s the definition – “Something generally accepted or agreed to without any formal decision in its favour”.

      There has never been any legal agreement that Westminster holds sovereignty over Scotland and the Treaty of Union says otherwise. Ergo – if Westminster were to actually hold legal sovereignty it would no longer be a United Kingdom. That means if it had, as Westminster claims, extinguished Scotland then there can’t be a bipartite United Kingdom. Neither can you have a country that contains four countries.

    307. K1 says:

      Ye just get tae the stage where yer staring blankly at the screen after reading the interplay and ye don’t want tae say/type anything, cause ye just hope the train wreck has stopped. Ye don’t want tae be part of it, ye just want it tae stop.

      I feel like going around wi a Wings ambulance and collecting the wounded.

    308. manandboy says:

      “The secret of change is to focus all your energy not on fighting the old but on building the new.” Socrates

      Another excellent post Stu. I can see the Wallace Monument getting a new name after Indy.
      Firing bullets sounds a lot easier than dodging them. Morning headlines in the Unionist media with Yes defending for the rest of the day. And yet, there seems to be no alternative with a Unionist controlled Media. We just have to bite the bullet on this one, I guess.

    309. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland,

      “Rock,

      You have monopolised this thread latterly and completely wrecked it.”

      Have I stopped anyone posting or asked anyone to stop posting?

      For every post I make, there are about 10 insulting me, without countering the point I have made.

      I started with a post at 8:05 pm, followed by one at 8:11 pm and another at 8:33 pm..

      Read them and tell me what is wrong with them.

      Compare my posts with the first response to my posts:

      yesindyref2,

      “Oh God, the CRock shift is on again

      “Crock: something considered to be complete nonsense”

      Yup.”

    310. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The way folk are ganging up on Rock and applying the ‘Troll’ label to him is what stinks this comment section up, not him! Sorry he made your The National cry. He’s for independence, that’s what matters. Rock, let the sovereinty issue lie now; anybody unpersuaded thus far isn’t going to change their mind.

      What did you mean by ‘depressives’, Bobby? Cos I’m not picking up a fun-loving vibe fae you.

    311. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rev,

      We know you read the threads, no matter how tedious it must become at times…

      If some of the regulars are bailing-out because of ‘Rock’, what effect is it having on newcomers?

      He’s been especially busy this past week or so, every evening.

      How many more threads will he be allowed to wreck?

      What’s the feeling among other commenters – is it time for ‘Rock’ to be bagged? Or is he contributing something stimulating to discussion generally?

      I really don’t know any more if it’s just me who is so genuinely gut-sick of him and his boring, cynical, nasty baiting dross.

    312. manandboy says:

      It occurred to me the other day that access to the European press if written in English would be great, till I remembered the Irish Press. I’ve since read a few articles from different papers and the difference in ‘reporting’ is markedly different from the UK with no Unionist propaganda and some impressive comment.

    313. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      I’m a newcomer and he doesnae bother me one bit, even though I might not agree with him. The histrionic hivemind, on the other hand…

    314. manandboy says:

      http://m.thepaperboy.com/ireland/newspapers/country.cfm

      A list of Irish papers, all 87 of them, take your pick.

    315. K1 says:

      ‘Rock, let the sovereinty issue lie now; anybody unpersuaded thus far isn’t going to change their mind.’

      Haven’t been around these parts long then Reluctant Nationalist?

      This is Rock’s constant, unrelenting, repetitive, non stop, insistent, perpetual, eternal, never ending, ongoing most important and pretty much main and only point that he drives home constantly, relentlessly, repetitively not stopping insisting perpetually for eternity which means never ending forever point. (oh..and the National is dessert)

      So, good luck wi the charm offensive. 😉

    316. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist –

      Perhaps the reason he ‘doesn’t bother you one bit’ is because you’ve not been listening to his shite for years.

      I just hope to all known gods you’re not one of his disciples.

    317. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 10 February, 2017 at 10:32 pm:

      “I must admit, the ongoing spat between Rock and Robert Peffers over Scottish sovereignty has long had me as an interested onlooker.”

      There isn’t an ongoing spat. I do not often bother even reading Rock’s stuff now. If I refer to him or his posts it is through what others are saying. Rock is a lost soul looking for a lost cause to support.

    318. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – I think people can only ruin threads if commenteers respond and engage in tit-for-tat contests. Without the stimulus, contrary posters will get bored and do something more constructive with their time – hopefully.

      Most of us will just scroll on by.

    319. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “@Graeme says: 10 February, 2017 at 9:37 pm:

      ” … Robert is correct in as much we are sovereign on paper but we have allowed this union to strip us of that sovereignty de facto which is where Rock is correct.”

      That, Graeme is rubbish. Unlike Rock, I don’t just state something I explain it and/or offer proofs.”

      Prove yourself then.

      Which document states that the “people of Scotland” are “sovereign”?

      Which “people” does it refer to?

      What type of “sovereignty” do people with no voting rights have?

      Can the people of Scotland start a process to get rid of the monarch if they want to? How?

      Can the people of Scotland call an election when they want to?

      Can the people of Scotland call a referendum when they want to?

      Can the people of Scotland force their elected representatives to vote according to their wishes?

      Which Scottish law gave voting rights to all?

      Did it say anything about “sovereignty”.

      If the UK gets out of the EU, so will North Britain.

      But since North Britain voted to remain in the EU, and according to you Scots are “sovereign”, how can we avoid Brexit for North Britain?

      Do you accept that the UK Supreme Court’s pronouncement that the Scottish parliament does not need to be consulted over Brexit is legal?

      If it is illegal, how can the “sovereign” Scottish people challenge it in a Scottish court?

      (I know that the UK is a union of two kingdoms so please don’t start on that.)

    320. Rock says:

      Reluctant Nationalist,

      “Rock, let the sovereinty issue lie now; anybody unpersuaded thus far isn’t going to change their mind.”

      True.

      But I just can’t stand distortions of the truth.

      I will now challenge it only once every time it is brought up.

    321. Socrates MacSporran at 9.09
      Goodness.I was there too. Remember a big sway at one point at the Copeland Road end.

    322. Meg merrilees says:

      Calling all tech folks?

      Is this something we should be worried about

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38930428

      WordPress blogs defaced in hack attack???

    323. heedtracker says:

      Reluctant Nationalist says:
      10 February, 2017 at 11:51 pm
      I’m a newcomer and he doesnae bother me one bit, even though I might not agree with him. The histrionic hivemind, on the other hand…

      Can we focus on stuff like,

      Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
      NeilMackay ?@NeilMackay 11h11 hours ago
      More
      Submarine fleet knackered, nukes that fire the wrong way, door slammed in the face of refugee children. Tories putting the Great in Britain

      Its a lot watching PMQ’s and Angus Robertson standing up in front of all those howling Westminster tory goons and a relentlessly BBC tory brainwashed Engerlund and says, right you tory sacks of shite, what’s this about?

      Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh MP and Joanna Cherry MP were this weeks stand out SNP stars, for progressive liberal Scotland so, do you not see what a bawbag like Rock is up to on here?

      I do, and I’m a bit thick:D

      How thick are you?

      Or, Why are these lying bastards lying to me now, is the unofficial Wings over Scotland motto.

    324. Capella says:

      To lighten up – why not watch “Full Frontal with Samantha bee” laughing at BREXIT, Trump and the Scottish resistance aka the residents of Menie. 7 mins.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pbTmXsfiYk

    325. Still Positive says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 11.43.

      No, Ian it is not just you. He spoils the thread completely with his dictatorial manner.

      No effort made to engage in meaningful discussion whatsoever.

      Whereas others are posting links for discussion especially wre EU membership which is relevant to us all and which we all need to engage in. Especially as it is important to us all. Rock interrupts it all.

    326. Rock says:

      K1,

      “This is Rock’s constant, unrelenting, repetitive, non stop, insistent, perpetual, eternal, never ending, ongoing most important and pretty much main and only point that he drives home constantly, relentlessly, repetitively not stopping insisting perpetually for eternity which means never ending forever point”

      Multiply that by 100 and it then applies to Robert Peffers.

    327. Cherry says:

      Alexander Fraser, Gilbert Hay, Constable of Scotland, Robert Keith, Marischal of Scotland, Henry St Clair, John Graham, David Lindsay, William Oliphant, Patrick Graham, John Fenton, William Abernethy, David Wemyss, William Mushet, Fergus of Ardrossan, Eustace Maxwell, William Ramsay, William Mowat, Alan Murray, Donald Campbell, John Cameron, Reginald Cheyne, Alexander Seton, Andrew Leslie, and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet…

      The above is taken from the Declaration of Arbroath…Rock read the bit that says “other barons,freeholders AND THE WHOLE COMMUNITY OF THE REALM OF SCOTLAND.”

      That is us the people the plebs…go read it…so sick of your negativity. You never do research someone else does it for you…no more…just do one!

    328. K1 says:

      Actually Capella have a slightly different view on the ‘how threads are ruined’.

      If you scroll back slightly to before the back and forth’s begin with posters attempting to respond reasonably to Rock’s posts, there is no sense of ‘ruin’. What happens is that slowly posters stop posting and then the thread gets filled with those arguing with Rock, people start getting upset as they realise Rock’s not going to even meet them half way.

      I think people just ‘leave’ and often they’ll state it before they do. It gets to the point where there is nothing to ‘scroll by’ to, if you see what I mean, cause the conversations have been stopped by those posts.

      Ian is right in terms of the number of times this has occurred in this past week with regard to Rock’s post and the ensuing exchanges.

      We’ve all learned to do it with Davey boy?

      Don’t know why people keep getting involved wi Rock when they are clearly not going to come to any kind of understanding with him/her.

      So on that point, that’s up tae individuals themselves. Because of course we are not a ‘hive mind’, are we? 😉

    329. Thepnr says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      I’m a newcomer and he doesnae bother me one bit, even though I might not agree with him. The histrionic hivemind, on the other hand…

      I really liked the “histrionic hivemind” bit. So what are you saying? There are folk that post here who disagree with what Rock has to say yet they are all just part of the same hive mindset?

      Mr Reluctant Nationalist you are a stirrer and for someone claiming to be “new” here your also a very provocative one.

      Why claim to be a Nationalist if your so reluctant? I think your a mate of Rocks though I thought too that he had none. He has few on here anyway. Even Socrates McSporran offered him some support and was dissed or did you miss that.

      Rock is a cancer on this website, not something you possibly could have known of being “new”. Your business, you chose your friends. Might have been wiser to learn more before jumping in with both feet for your support of Rock.

    330. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ manandboy

      Yeah, the proper Irish press can be refreshing. Also, one of the best recent documentaries I’ve seen – ‘The Revolution Will Not be Televised’ ( https://en.m.Wikipedia.org/wiki/the_revolution_will_not_be_televised_(film) ) – which was about the coup against Hugo Chavez, was commissioned by The Irish Film Board; and while I don’t hold any particularly romantic views about Venezuela,I couldn’t see this getting greenlit by any stauch (NATO member, and non-neutral) allies of the USA, what with Chavez having represented a threat to their ‘national security’. Ahem.

    331. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lenny Hartley says: 10 February, 2017 at 11:08 pm:

      “Les Wilson wasting your time petitioning the EU. One of my mates did it around jan 2014 , cant remember exactly what his petition was, but they kicked it into the long grass and don’t think he has an answer yet.”

      Thing is, Lenny, The EU pages I quoted are not for other than such things as citizenship, civil Rights and such like.

      There is a list of headings and each heading has sub-headings. If your petition doesn’t refer to those things then it will get kicked into the long grass.

      In any case there will certainly be a big difference between one person asking a question and thousands if not millions.

      Even if they do not come up with a specific answer we will have made them sit up and take notice that the United Kingdom is a long way from being united and that it is a bipartite union. It will affect how they decide to jump when Westminster hands in their Article 50 request to leave the EU.

    332. K1 says:

      ‘I really liked the “histrionic hivemind” bit. So what are you saying?’

      I love Wings over Scotland. That’s all 🙂

      (But, Cactus, I love Scotland…more ;-). )

    333. heedtracker says:

      I mean we could chunter on and on about what a bawbag Rock is, whoever he is, or even how the National will or wont be backing Scotland’s progress towards being northern Europe’s next Norway or Denmark, instead of BBC Scotland’s shite pit of drug addled losers. Or we could focus on extraordinary talent like,

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

      and what they are actually doing, to shake off entitled, enraged, inbred loser tory shits, red or blue.

    334. Famous15 says:

      RE ROCK

      Once upon a time I belonged to a very successful social club but we had one member who, like Rock had a bee in his bonnet about the local newspaper. He ranted and raved about them taking photographs and reporting our events. It appeared he went to the same school as the editor who was a prefect and he was not.

      The editor got wind of the trouble being caused and graciously stopped reporting events.The Social Club folded within the year.

    335. Rock says:

      Still Positive,

      “Whereas others are posting links for discussion especially wre EU membership which is relevant to us all and which we all need to engage in. Especially as it is important to us all. Rock interrupts it all.”

      Right, repond to this post then:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      10 February, 2017 at 11:08 pm

      “Les Wilson wasting your time petitioning the EU. One of my mates did it around jan 2014 , cant remember exactly what his petition was, but they kicked it into the long grass and don’t think he has an answer yet.”

      Compare that with my post 9:52 pm.

    336. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I’d be very interested to hear more from you @Beor says at 9:06 pm and I also don’t think I’d be alone.

      “The sequence is simple……..Scotland’s membership would be a relatively simple process taking less than a year.

      All the rest is bullshit.”

      Any chance you could put a wee informative article together for WoS?

      More ammunition for the doorstep in the fight against Westminsters/BBC/MSM Propaganda especially if it comes from “the chief correspondent for the negotiation of a key “chapter” of the 2004 enlargement treaty”.

      Give it some thought.

    337. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Ian brotherhood

      Too many people on here are giving the Rock and all the other trolls who visit your site the oxygen they need to survive.

      There should be a ban on replying to these trolls, they soon get fed up and move on if they see that nobody is biting.

      This is just my personal opinion of course.

    338. Rock says:

      Joemcg,

      “I’m more confident of us winning at this present time since the heady days of yes supporters swamping the streets of Scotland in 2014 and you should be too! Cheer up bro!”

      Thanks for your support.

      But what has made you change your mind?

      Only a few days ago you had posted:

      “Defeat beckons again mark my words. Some sort of residency rule at the very least needs to be in place in my opinion for us to have any chance. Bare minimum.”

      My worry is that there is a very big stumbling block to overcome: the British Nationalist elderly, the vast majority of selfish middle classes and the English.

      Add to that postal vote fraud, the BBC and the rest of the media, the secret services, the silent majority, rigging.

      What annoys me most is armchair pundits here behaving as if victory is guaranteed next time.

    339. Legerwood says:

      Rock @ 12.02 am

      Good questions to which you will never get any answers.

    340. Robert Peffers says:

      I’ll tell you one thing for nothing. I’m getting to bed a little bit earlier now since Rock has decided to stop the free flow of threads on Wings of an evening.

    341. Famous15 says:

      Rock is a troll and very good at it. Notice Sensible and Rock never appear in the same shot.

    342. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “Even if they do not come up with a specific answer we will have made them sit up and take notice that the United Kingdom is a long way from being united and that it is a bipartite union. It will affect how they decide to jump when Westminster hands in their Article 50 request to leave the EU.”

      Please make this petition as quickly as possible.

    343. Rock says:

      K1,

      “Don’t know why people keep getting involved wi Rock when they are clearly not going to come to any kind of understanding with him/her.”

      They are out for a gang fight against one.

    344. Rock says:

      Legerwood,

      “Rock @ 12.02 am

      Good questions to which you will never get any answers.”

      At least someone will be able get to bed earlier!

      Robert Peffers,

      “I’ll tell you one thing for nothing. I’m getting to bed a little bit earlier now since Rock has decided to stop the free flow of threads on Wings of an evening.”

    345. Joemcg says:

      Rock-think that was a fortnight ago. There’s been a few events. The Brexit ignoring of Scotland thing in WM. Supreme Court verdict. The recent 49% poll. EU support for an Indy Scotland. Even that ode to joy defiance has lifted my mood! I’ve just got a feeling. Don’t think I’ve been more optimistic at any point. Something in the air perhaps?

    346. Joemcg says:

      I even heard today that the 49% poll did not even include one of our strongest demographics. The 16-17 year olds. Which is unbelievable and brilliant news.

    347. heedtracker says:

      Famous15 says:
      11 February, 2017 at 12:34 am
      Rock is a troll and very good at it. Notice Sensible and Rock never appear in the same shot.

      He’s good at leading us around and around his little circle of Rock, the pied piper of yoon. BBC Politics show is a similar display of tory bullshit, keeping focus on how shite non tories really are, how opposition to tory reign, is all natuarally complete and utter shite, or really silly unimportant shite. Robert Peffers is targeted because he’s a regular with consistent info, everyone else cant be pinned down.

      But as long as no-one is thinking about or discussing extraordinary SNP people like,

      https://twitter.com/TasminaSheikh

      and instead, everyone is focusing “sovereignty” or what meanies the National hacks are, trying to defend Robert Peffers, Rock is doing his job, his sneaky, creepy, UKOK job.

      Right Rock?

    348. K1 says:

      ‘Rock says:
      11 February, 2017 at 12:10 am
      K1,

      “This is Rock’s constant, unrelenting, repetitive, non stop, insistent, perpetual, eternal, never ending, ongoing most important and pretty much main and only point that he drives home constantly, relentlessly, repetitively not stopping insisting perpetually for eternity which means never ending forever point”

      Multiply that by 100 and it then applies to Robert Peffers.’

      Ach ye miss my ‘point’ Rock.

      Robert expands on ‘his’ understanding of the intricacies and nuances of the historic record in relation to the ‘absolute’ incontrovertible evidence that supports his supposition that Scotland is indeed a Sovereign Kingdom.

      He explores the relationship betwixt the two Kingdoms that constitute the bipartite union that is known as the United Kingdom and expands on ‘his’ interpretation of the Treaties of Union in an attempt to get us all thinking about this ‘aspect’ of our constitutional situation in the face of the daily and well documented resistance from the establishment to us re establishing our former independent status.

      Intae the bargain he’s also a very skilled raconteur and in the manner of conveying dry historical information has a particularly engaging style of writing.

      Now, Rock, that’s my opinion.

      What you do is as ah have described, you ‘seem to’ merely want to denigrate Robert’s input, as once again you proved by your response to my comment.

      All you go on about is what Robert says ‘about’ ‘sovereignty’ and how you don’t ‘like’ what he says. That’s not debating and on the occasions when he has replied to you at length, you just dismiss and continue relentlessly, repeatedly with the same ‘point’ over and over again.

      You’re not debating you’re berating.

    349. Rock says:

      Joemcg,

      “Rock-think that was a fortnight ago. There’s been a few events. The Brexit ignoring of Scotland thing in WM. Supreme Court verdict. The recent 49% poll. EU support for an Indy Scotland. Even that ode to joy defiance has lifted my mood! I’ve just got a feeling. Don’t think I’ve been more optimistic at any point. Something in the air perhaps?”

      As the saying goes “Prepare for the worst and hope for the Best”.

      There is a gang of posters here which claims that I am wrecking threads.

      But it is my humble opinion that discussions were much better on his blog before this gang took over and started insulting anyone who didn’t agree with them.

      See Thepnr’s response to “Reluctant Nationalist” at 12:11 am.

    350. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Aye, Thepnr, you’ve rumbled me. Rock (known to me and his other mates as Dwayne Johnson) thought that asking me to come on here pretending to be a stranger with no allegiance who suddenly chipped in to defend him (white knight style – hoping for a blowie) would be really subtle, stun all you guys into thinking he must be alright, and have you all change your minds. What can I say? Bros 4 life.

      For real – I didn’t realise that he’d been doing this for years, Ian. I am duly tellt. I just like rooting for the underdog, but jerked my knee this time and looked up to curse the Gods when I should’ve been looking at all the dogshite around me. Apologies. To all. He still seems alright to me, though. Don’t hit me!

      @ heedtracker

      How thick? You know when you get angry at a person for being so thick ,then it turns into sympathy when you realise it’s a brain disorder? That person beat me at chess.

    351. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers, re EU petition , it was accepted and discussed at high level, I can’t remember the detail will get it over the weekend.

    352. Thepnr says:

      The rain is teeming down. The sewers have burst and the effluent is flowing down the street, the door has cracked open and it comes flooding in.

      You manage to close the door and when the flood has subsided looking around the room all that’s left is shitty sludge all over the carpets.

      Not to worry, you have insurance. You can still vote YES.

    353. Rock says:

      K1,

      “That’s not debating and on the occasions when he has replied to you at length, you just dismiss and continue relentlessly, repeatedly with the same ‘point’ over and over again.”

      He only ever repeats his shite at length.

      Refer to my questions to him at 12:02 am and compare them with his response, if and when it comes.

    354. heedtracker says:

      https://twitter.com/TasminaSheikh

      So just to imprint this troll point home into my fellow WoS readers, instead of discussing the various issues our extraordinary SNP’s MP’s like Tasmina, are hitting planet toryboy with, at every opportunity, we’re focused on whether or not Rock’s a troll. He is:D

    355. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.

      No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.

      I’ve had my run-ins with a few folk here over recent years, but it never got so nasty that I, or t’other correspondent was barred (well, so far as I’m aware).

      This is something else – Rev Stu is, for his own reasons, deciding to ignore repeated and genuine complaints about a poster who appears to be a properly full-grown, very hairy (if crafty and intelligent) troll.

      This is a gesture of protest, aye, but it’s a purely personal shout. I’m not trying to spark some major outcry or witch-hunt.

      See ye’s around elsewhere, nae doots!

      🙂

    356. Thepnr says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      “histrionic hivemind”

      I have no interest in what you have to say.

    357. Joemcg says:

      Rock and Reluctant-snap! well the pnr did accuse me and Rock of being the same person! I tend to agree that if you “Rock” the boat here (pardon the pun!) you get accused of all sorts, troll yoon 77th brigade etc. which pisses me off because I like a bit of straight talk and non conformity.

    358. Rock says:

      Cherry,

      “The above is taken from the Declaration of Arbroath…Rock read the bit that says “other barons,freeholders AND THE WHOLE COMMUNITY OF THE REALM OF SCOTLAND.””

      I have to repeat once again: “sovereignty” not worth the paper it was written on.

      The “whole community” was little more than slaves of the said “barons” and “freeholders”.

      They did not have the vote. They simply obeyed orders.

      If anyone from the “whole community” had signed it, it would have been on the orders of the barons and freeholders.

      What sort of “sovereignty” was that?

    359. Rock says:

      Joemcg,

      “I like a bit of straight talk and non conformity.”

      Same here.

    360. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Ian, dinnae do that man. I believe you.

    361. Rock says:

      For the record, I have rarely used the “t” word against any poster and I have never demanded that a poster stop posting.

    362. Dan Huil says:

      @Cherry 12:11am

      Well said.

    363. Balaaargh says:

      @Meg Merrilees,

      Nah, this only affects two of the more recent releases of WordPress. Stu hasn’t upgraded the WoS site in a while so there are plenty of other vulnerabilities to worry about before this one…

    364. Thepnr says:

      Look at the state now of this thread. Would any genuine Independence supporter come on to Wings and make such a mess?

      Create such friction, cause such havoc. I don’t think so if they were genuine. Not to worry I think when the Rev reads all this himself it will be the last we see of some of these nom-de-plumes.

      No doubt they would be back under another name but we can wait until then.

    365. Ghillie says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      Haste ye back =)

    366. Dan Huil says:

      @Joemcg 12:46am

      If true it is, as you said, very encouraging news.

    367. heedtracker says:

      @ heedtracker

      How thick? You know when you get angry at a person for being so thick ,then it turns into sympathy when you realise it’s a brain disorder? That person beat me at chess.

      When you can name almost every SNP MP and SNP, when their views, their personalities, the what and why they got into Scottish politics, what they they want and hope for the future of Scotland, even if you can hear their voices when you read the UKOK tory shite in all the tory rags out there, just as easy as you can hear a tory ligger like Andrew Neil or future Sir Jacky Bird, then my son, gimps like Rock will have failed completely, is what I’m saying. Also and not only, the massed ranks of great British BBC led propagandists, all beavering away at silencing anyone that dares to oppose planet toryboy rule. Its good money you know.

      Right Rock:D

      Brenda’s not the owner of 60 million square miles of planet Earth by chance you know. We can be little ants on the royal family’s world, or we can stand up and do something incredible, be Norwegian or Danes or even Icelandic.

    368. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Thepnr: “I have no interest in what you have to say.‘

      Join the vast majority of the world’s population, then.

    369. Meg merrilees says:

      Front page of the Guardian today –

      The Government has abandoned any plan for Trump to address parliament.
      It is thought that they will aim for him to visit sometime in august/sep before Parliament reconvenes. He will visit from a thursday to a sunday.

      They want his visit to be as private as possible to reduce the possibility of protests.

      Also, they still have to work out how much time the Queen and Philip would spend with him as they normally spend late August and Sept in Balmoral…so that’s a handy get out for everyone then!

      He’ll prob end up going to Balmoral after all – State visit to the Highland Gathering
      and a black pudding supper afterwards with an innin in an aa?

    370. Hamish100 says:

      Rock doesn’t read any papers but constantly berates the National. Strange choice for one that doesn’t do newspapers.
      The National isn’t perfect nor the Sunday Herald but it’s all we have. Rock wants us to destroy both.
      Tells me he is a troll

      Now we can we move on and debate how we will defeat the brexit Tories and win over Remain Labour and others.

      Rock – haud yir wheesht.

    371. K1 says:

      Thing is Rock, so what?

      Ye need tae get over yer disappointment at Robert not giving you what you want Rock.

      There ye go again wi the denigrating and comparing yours to his? I used the word ‘point’ you swapped it for ‘shite’. Stop it.

      It’s just your opinion Rock. Let others have theirs.

    372. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Heedtracker

      Credit me with some ability to discern fact from fiction, please. Even out of sympathy, or perhaps blind optimism.

    373. Capella says:

      @ K1 12:11 – I missed most of the thread tonight so haven’t read the comments further up. But the main thing is, IMO, to not engage with anyone who appears to be just a wind-up merchant. It’s too boring. As you say, lots of good posters dry up when a ping-pong match develops.

      Off up the little wooden hill to Bedfordshire now. What fresh hell will we wake to tomorrow?

    374. bugsbunny says:

      Remember you guys were wondering how far and how low the BUM would scrap and from where? Well wonder no longer.

      A toff at Cambridge burns a £20 note in front of a homeless man. And what do the headlines screech?

      Drum Rolls…..
      Pembroke College Pupil Mr Coyne, who is “BELIEVED” to be Ms Sturgeon’s Sister in Law’s Ex-Husband’s Nephew, has deleted all his Social Media Accounts.

      So there we have it folks, Elvis and All Common Sense for that matter has truly left the building. The Barrel has been scraped, the shit has been stired and the loonies have finally took over the Asylum. I effing give up. What a load of steaming keech from a lying manipulating press. Hold on to your hats for a Statement from Jabba the Hut, whilst shedding crocodile tears, (whilst presumably eating one).

    375. Grouse Beater says:

      Scotland – England’s punkah wallah: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-dgN

    376. bugsbunny says:

      The Mail is now scrapping the bottom of the barrel. A Cambridge student burns a £20 note in front of a homeless person and what do the headlines scream? That the said Ronald Coyne is “BELIEVED” to be Nicola Sturgeon’s Sister in Law’s Ex-Husbands Nephew.

      Bloody hell. Here we go again.

    377. Chick McGregor says:

      Rock
      I agree with you that petitions are a waste of time, they always have been and will be, but as for the rest Rock you have been rubbled.

      The rEU are already considering if whether in the worst case scenario, i.e. that Scotland is still part of the UK post real Brexit, that Scots might be accorded coninuing EU membership if only in a one-way direction.

      Not by petition, but simply because it is the right thing to do.

      The Britnat elite and their minions are so far gone now that they no longer can tell what is right or wrong or concede that other nations still have, at base, a moral compass telling them to do what is right.

      At best, a rude awakening awaits the rUK at worse a catastrophe of Titanic proportions.

    378. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh my God there are fucking idiots actually thinking they’re having a serious discussion with a troll. A troll A troll.

      I’m fucking out of here.

    379. yesindyref2 says:

      Forgot to post this very important and encouraging bit of EU info I got via Rev’s Twitter, which I checked out:

      Jacek Saryusz-Wolski Verified account
      ?@JSaryuszWolski

      “Independent Scotland would have to apply to join EU” – Only Scotland can decide, but if so, would be most welcome.

      Jacek Saryusz-Wolski is the Vice President of the @EPP.

      The EPP – the Group of the European People’s Party (Christian Democrats) in the European Parliament – has 216 members. It’s the biggest group, and one I hadn’t sussed out till now.

      The Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance who have 50 members, including the 2 SNP MEPs held their conference in Glasgow to show solidarity recently.

      There’s a total of 751 MEPs in the Parliament, including the 73 from the UK, 67 of them from the rUK who in fairness, if they get the vote, would be unlikely to vote against Scotland.

      To get a majority when considering our membership, it would need around 376 or 342 votes.

      The EPP + Green free alliance = 266. I don’t want to be presumptious, but I can only see about 118 who might vote against, and the rest likely for us.

      I forgot to post this because of the troll and respondents totally subverting the thread – which is precisely the troll’s purpose. I won’t be back until the troll is put back under the bridge. I’m sick to death of doing wasted troll duty to try to stop this forum – and website – being destroyed.

      Have a good Ref and keep your eye on my blog below occasionally, as when I’ve got the time I’ve got to work out and add the probable cost of our membership including the probable nett cost after CAP and grants – and perhaps a page or two on EFTA / EEA.

      https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/

    380. Nana says:

      @Macart 8.14

      Aye their slip is slipping further down each day, a delightful sight it is too.

      Once again it seems Rock has managed to disrupt the thread and in the process upset wingers. Is that not the aim, disrupt & sow discord?

    381. Nana says:

      Inverness couple’s deportation fight wins backing from First Minister Nicola Sturgeon http://archive.is/fBfoP

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10206/fake-news-address-political-distortion-reality-says-trade-union-organiser

      European Commission ‘agrees £48bn Brexit divorce bill
      http://archive.is/hjXRO

      The steel and oil and gas industries have been classed as “low priority” in Brexit negotiations
      http://archive.is/CWaFA

    382. bjsalba says:

      @Robert Peffers & @HandandShrimp at 2:41 pm

      The scuttlebutt was that Cameron offered Barroso support for the top Nato job for that appearance. He did not get that job or any other in public service and that appearance was probably in part the reason. He disappeared for his mandatory period after finishing his term and then came back with Goldman Sachs. That caused a real stushie in the EU Parliament.

      Didn’t make much in our MSM but this is a different view.
      https://www.rt.com/business/350782-barroso-new-job-goldman/

      They did report this though
      http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-eu-opens-ethics-probe-into-barroso-goldman-job-2016-9?

      And lastly this.
      https://www.neweurope.eu/article/juncker-tightens-commissioners-ethics-code-conduct/

    383. Robert Kerr says:

      I went to bed early having scrolled past the “Rock” stuff and responses.

      Really an abysmal thread. Thanks Rock and his feeders!

      So glad I didn’t waste my time even speed-reading the rubbish.

    384. Graeme says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      10 February, 2017 at 11:38 pm

      @Graeme says: 10 February, 2017 at 9:37 pm:

      ” … Robert is correct in as much we are sovereign on paper but we have allowed this union to strip us of that sovereignty de facto which is where Rock is correct.”

      That, Graeme is rubbish. Unlike Rock, I don’t just state something I explain it and/or offer proofs.

      I’m not arguing with you Robert (I wouldn’t dare) like I said to Rock I’m not qualified to do that I was merely stating how I saw it but isn’t our recognition of the UK Supreme Court an example of us allowing our sovereignty to be stripped from us ?

      Graeme

    385. Ghillie says:

      Read through some comments that seem to focus on:

      …stating that there is no point in trying to change the minds of the selfish middle class, the English, or the elderly.

      …that a sense of sovereignity is bogus.

      …that the National and Sunday Herald newspapers’ coming out for independence is bogus.

      I am sure more can be added to this list.

      All seems a tad undermining…

      I’m all for applying a healthy dose of cynicism and reading between the lines but constant negativity and needling sets my nerves ajangling. Hmmm

      Mibbee I’ll just pay a wee bit more attention to those very discredited areas of interest now = )

    386. Ghillie says:

      Heedtracker @ 12.58 am

      You are spot on! Our brilliant MPs like Tasmina are indeed keeping Westminster’s feet to the fire!

      They must now rue the days and years and centuries they abused Scotland.

      NANA! Jings, I’ve put my reading glasses on. I’ll be busy for a while = )

    387. Nana says:

      @Ghillie

      Haha, remember you don’t have to read them all. It’s a bit like pick n mix from Woolies. Choose your favourites, sit back and relax!

    388. Smallaxe says:

      Oh Rock dear Rock
      You are such a C*CK
      You’ve pissed all over
      Intelligent talk

      A Brother has left us
      You’ve messed with his head
      And some usual late nighters
      Have gone to their bed

      Are you a Rock?
      Or are you just a pebble?
      I think your a “Rogue”
      Disguised as a Rebel

      I’ve met your type before
      The ones who corrupt
      You’re only on here
      To twist and disrupt

      Oh’ we’re not sovereign
      We’re just little plebs
      Says Rock the spider
      Spinning his webs

      We’re all used to spiders
      Have you heard of the Bruce?
      WE are a Small Axe
      And we’re cutting you loose!

      This is Wings Over Scotland
      That your Rocks trying to (T)roll
      Get back to your Masters
      In the Westminster HOLE!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MyJHh451Y4

      Peace (Sometimes!)

    389. Ghillie says:

      Peace Smallaxe x

      Thanks Nana, good reading = )

    390. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: Good Morning,

      I just popped in and was I shocked, the whole of a thread had been badly Rocked.Ian Brotherhood, get back here, we don’t run away, we stand and we fight them we don’t leave the fray, come back My Brother we know you were Pissed but we need you here you would be badly missed.All early bedders get out of your pit, the fight is ongoing we need you all fit!

      Now is the time to stand at your station.We fight for Scotland! our Homeland, our NATION!

      Peace Always to All true Wingers

    391. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Ghillie, Good Morning to you.

      Peace and Love to you My Friend

      🙂

    392. woosie says:

      Prof Curtice on Radio Shortbread this morning. Asked by Brewer about polls saying only 20 odd % wanting indyref; replied “this poll is not important in terms of voting intentions”.

      Well said. Brewer’s pay docked for letting him finish a sentence.

    393. Bill McLean says:

      I was banned by James Kelly of “Scot goes Pop” for complaining that most of the threads were being destroyed and the topic of discussion was being lost by the troll GWC2 who not only disrupts the threads but uses foul comment the like of which we do not see on Wings. Those who are unhappy with “Rock” should simply ignore him/her as comment by him/her and responses to him/her are knocking the stuffing out of many threads. I don’t comment often Rev so Please don’t do a James Kelly to me!

    394. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Smallaxe @ 9.44 am !

      Well said! Hope our Brother in arms sees it = )

      You’re awfy good with words. I hope you are keeping hard copy of your poems and songs (as I hope others on here do too with their clever contributions!)

      We are in a wonderful place, witnessing and being a part of history growing around us day by day.

      Have a lovely day folks = )

    395. Ghillie says:

      PS Bill MacLean @ 9.56 am

      Well said. I reckon you’re safe = )

    396. Bill McLean says:

      Thanks Ghillie – feel better more secure already. haha. I’m here to learn from anybody and everybody. Just wish people would keep the main prize front and centre and not be distracted by pointless argument!

    397. Smallaxe says:

      Ghillie:

      Thank you for your kind words, Poetry, mostly, is soft and beautiful. I sometimes find that anger produces my “Rhymes”. Anger can be my muse, like this morning it just pours out of me. I will do my damndest to get Ian B. back here, he is more important than many on here can know, we need men like him they are essential to our cause.I’ll pester him on off topic until Rock seems the lesser evil. 🙂

      Peace Always My Friend

      Ps, I’m supposed to be resting, Nana will be after me if I don’t shut up!

    398. Nana says:

      @Smallaxe

      Your ode to Rock is masterful. It makes me sad to think he has sickened Ian so much he has decided to leave and having read yesindyref2 @6.42am it looks like he is also away.

    399. Lenny Hartley says:

      Great Poem Smallaxe, I’ll send it to Ian via Email to ensure he gets it. sad to see Indy2ref has gone also, bet Rock (ape) is feeling good today, we just have to get better at not feeding the Trolls,now they have smelt blood it will encourage them to piss of more people who’s contributions to WOS have been valuable. I do not agree with blocking but for certain people I would make an exception.

    400. Ghillie says:

      Nana, Smallaxe, Bill and all,

      We keep each other going = )

      Smallaxe, do your stuff and get our Ian back!

      Again folks, all folks, you too Rev, have a lovely day = )

    401. Nana says:

      @Bill McLean

      I agree Bill, I skip past all comments from those I believe to be here to disrupt, even those who have ‘had a go’ at me. This blog is far too important to waste time arguing the same points over and over again.

      Oh and I don’t think for one minute you need worry about being blocked.

      @Smallaxe

      Ahem, I’m watching!

    402. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Haha! That was quite good, smallaxe. Nice rhythm.

      Nana: some good links there, will read. Regarding the Politico article about London no longer being the EU FS bigwig after brexit – as long as it continues its role as one of the main facilitators of $Trillion offshore tax-avoidance unabated, then that is of far greater importance. The China deal where The City’s ‘quid’ is being the main offshore trading centre for the Renminbi, to the ‘quo’ of China’s relatively recently-approved UK ‘infrastructure investment’, should fill the gap the Eurodollar markets previously filled. In fact that gap should overflow if the growth potential is realised.

      There’s a good book called ‘Treasure Islands’ by Nicholas Shaxson that includes a section on how London’s role as a chief overseer in the Eurodollar markets is – among other things – a vital instrument in maintaing the US Dollar as the world reserve currency (along with Saudi Arabia ensuring the maintenance of the Petrodollar), so the real loser if London becomes a smaller player in Euro FS, and moves to beome the Renminbi bigwig, may be Wall Street. Ah, perfidious Albion. Who knows though, eh?

    403. Muscleguy says:

      The other thing which gets missed as I pointed out on the Graun’s version is that Ms Minor is speaking very carefully and diplomatically about the situation as it pertains right now. The UK has not actually triggered Article 50 and Scotland has not called IndyRef2.

      Once those two things happen the story from Europe, from the EU, the EU parliament, The commission, EU capitals will be very different.

      Of course very little if any of it will get reported in the Unionist media. Every single EU head of govt could call a huge press conference with the EU president and the head of the Commission and say Scotland will be most welcome and we are doing everything we can to facilitate a smooth transition for Scotland and the media here would ignore it completely and utterly.

    404. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      The people on here who reply to trolls like Rock are as much to blame for Ian B and others leaving Wings as the trolls themselves.

      Most of the posts are now trolls comments and replies to tolls comments.

      Please have a think about the damage you are doing to your beloved website.

      Don’t Drink and Drive! Is a law we all stick by.

      Don’t reply to Trolls! This should also be a rule we all stand by.

    405. Donald Marr says:

      The EU ,with it’s 10 000 officials paid more than the British PM ,is not the answer to our problems .
      It’s a capitalist ,gravy train cabal

    406. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graeme says: 11 February, 2017 at 7:35 am:

      “I’m not arguing with you Robert (I wouldn’t dare)”

      Please do dare. This is an open forum to exchange views and debate our views. Only by doing so can we hope to get to the truths of the many arguable claims being believed and made by both indy & unionist supporters.

      Without that interaction we are all wasting our time on Wings.

      … like I said to Rock I’m not qualified to do that I was merely stating how I saw it but isn’t our recognition of the UK Supreme Court an example of us allowing our sovereignty to be stripped from us?”

      Yes, Graeme, I gathered that. I will debate matters with anyone and indeed have done so at a very high level in the past.

      Once having to officially argue with the then Secretary of Defence, “Michael Ray Dibdin Heseltine, Baron Heseltine CH PC”, Who was Secretary of State for Defence from 1983 to 1986.

      Strangely enough his approach to debate was exactly the same as Rocks. He too could offer no other arguments that, “I’m right- because I say so”.

      I won’t attempt to shut down debate but will vigorously make my points with logical argument and factual evidence. I will also have increased respect for others who oppose me who do the same. That is who make their points, explain them and offer proofs. That way we all get a clearer view of whatever the point of the debate was.

      That’s advancement. You only need look at last evenings disruption by the , “Rocklike”, claims on Wings. If claims are made but no arguments put forward to support them then there really is no point in bothering with them.

      I gave up attempting to argue, or debate, anything with Rock for that very reason. You cannot get blood from a stone and you cannot get a debate from a Rock.

    407. Nana says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      Agree with your assessment

      as long as it[London] continues its role as one of the main facilitators of $Trillion offshore tax-avoidance unabated, then that is of far greater importance.

      I believe the Eu’s crackdown on tax avoidance is the main reason Westminster is so keen on Brexit. I recall Osborne making a great show over how they would be cracking down on shady dealings which was yet another sham. I can’t remember if that was prior to the revelations in the panama papers.

      Anyhow this mep has his measure
      http://mollymep.org.uk/2016/02/02/mep-accuses-osborne-of-pretence-on-anti-tax-avoidance-measures/

      I don’t know enough about how it all works or doesn’t. Perhaps I should read Treasure islands.

    408. Smallaxe says:

      Lenny Hartley:

      Thanks, Lenny, please do get in touch with Ian, he is one of the very few on here who know who I am and what I do and have done for many years.I look upon Ian as my protege, he is more important than even HE realises. I was so angry that I completely missed Yesindyref2 leaving also.They can not let a few words on a screen put them off, that’s nothing, if we don’t need it we don’t feed it.
      Simples!

      Peace, Love and My Gratitude goes with You Lenny

    409. Smallaxe says:

      Nana and All others who have replied to me. I thank you All.My heart is in my words.

      So sorry Nana, I can’t rest until I attempt to retrieve our lost brothers and I am sure that you already know that some of Rocks little friends have joined us already.Axe Sharpened!

      Peace and Love to All who have Scotlands future and the future of our children firmly set as the Goal.Do not be distracted.

    410. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Nana

      Yeah, I also noticed the whole tax-avoidance Panama Papers issue focussing a lot on Russia, and not London. But that was just my inference.

      ‘Treasure Islands’ explains all this skullduggery in a way that’s easy to understand. Sort of like Bill Bryson’s layman’s explanation of Quantum Physics in ‘A Short history of Nearly Everything’.

    411. Nana says:

      @Smallaxe

      I know, its frustrating for sure and I hope you can persuade them to stay. But take it easy!

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      Okay I’m looking for Treasure islands on ebay. Hopefully it will be easy for me to understand. Hubby would say I may not know a lot about money matters but I sure know how to spend it, lol

    412. Bill McLean says:

      Nana – thank you for your response! You are right that this blog is “far too important” to our cause for petty argument. I enjoy all the articles you link to,I enjoy Robert Peffers articles on history and the many measured and intelligent posts from most, and in fact I enjoy everything about Wings except this fratricidal falling out which only benefits those who wish further subservience for Scotland!

    413. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Hit me
      Hit me
      Hit me with your rhythm axe

    414. K1 says:

      I’d like to add a little perspective here to those who have come on to the thread afterwards to quite rightly make the point about Ian and yesindyref2 ‘leaving’ after last night’s shenanigans, that they ‘shouldn’t abandon Wings because of Rock’s input’ cause that really does ‘convey’ that Rock (as described as a ‘troll’) has indeed succeeded in accomplishing whatever he/she has set out to do, does it not?

      Firstly Rock has been on these threads for years now. Secondly both Ian and yesindyref2 have been arguing with Rock too on these threads. Yesindyref2 has been goading him all week …ye wanna have a look at the threads before deciding he’s (yesindyref2) some sort of ‘martyr’ who has been ‘put off’ when’s he’s as culpable of ‘encouraging the ‘so called’ ‘troll’ on more occasions than most. I won’t say the same for Ian cause he’s been dog sick tired of Rock since before I even appeared btl on Wings, which was in September 2013.

      So what’s my point?

      Those stating that people who engage with Rock are ‘also to blame’ should maybe consider that this includes the two people who’ve ‘had enough’. Ian not so much as he has been consistent in his objections. Yesindyref2 yeah maybe so (if Rock does meet the criteria of ‘troll) then he has encouraged him/her.

      One thing I can’t abide is ‘self righteous indignation’. You may not like what Rock has to say and for the record my input last night is literally the most ‘conversing’ I’ve ever had wi Rock. But mine’s if ye care to read it, is based upon criticising Rock’s incessant ‘point’ scoring wi Robert and the denigration of the ‘person’ and the repetitive relentlessness in this regard. As I stated he berates not debates. That’s clear.

      Rock’s got a point too people, those who ‘engage’ and goad and insult him/her merely encourage him to take offence and become even more relentless. To that extent yes ‘others who encourage him/her in ‘this manner’ are indeed ‘at fault’ too. Subtle distinction.

      Dander’s where up last night. Ian will come back and y’know what so will yesindyref2 too.

      Let’s move on from shinning our ‘I’m a good yin’ cause ‘I know a troll when ah see one’. I don’t think Rock is a troll. And ye know what clearly the Rev doesn’t think so either. But I do think there is a massive misunderstanding taking place within his/her mindset and the bee in his/her bonnet is not helped by people just instantly flinging shit at him/her because of past ‘way back in time’ arguments that predate the current threads.

      Oh and let’s just be adults here eh? No one ‘leaves’ Wings, they still read the fucking comments and if they don’t feel like posting cause they are a bit scunnered, well who hasn’t been there?

      Most of us don’t announce it we just ‘do’ it and come back on when we’re no feeling so wound up. No?

      —————————————

      Smallaxe 😉

    415. Jack Murphy says:

      Meg merrilees said 12:07 am
      “Calling all tech folks?

      Is this something we should be worried about
      ………………
      WordPress blogs defaced in hack attack???

      Here’s the link Archived.Cheers. 🙂

      http://archive.is/Vs3aQ

    416. Smallaxe says:

      Reluctant Nationalist:

      Unwilling, hesitant and disinclined
      Reluctant means all these, I think you will find
      Your reluctance confuses, I don’t understand
      How someone could be happy, whilst losing their land
      A land that belongs to the people who live here
      A land that was stolen (or sold) by a Peer!

      Have a look round about, my unwilling Friend?
      what delights do you think are going to end?
      Do you see food banks and disabled poor?
      Don’t you fear that this fate will come to Your door?

      Or has this fear already, made it’s foul presence known
      And do you fear that it’s not finished with You and Your own
      Believe me, it hasn’t it’s only just started
      It’s time these two Kingdoms are forever parted

      So shake off that Reluctance, make yourself sure
      How long can a people live, while Austerity endure’s
      We are a land full of promise, with my Word I assure
      That Scotland is ours, can you make it be Yours?

      Peace Always
      Smallaxe

    417. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Nana, I should’ve mentioned that London still has to grab more of a share of renminbi offshore clearing from Hong Kong before it can match the current Eurodollar amounts that form the bulk of its business. If Hong Kong retained just enough of a percentage to be the biggest player by a small margin, instead of the massive margin it has now (giving London ~20%-30% more), then we’d see a real shift and possibly the emergence of a new world reserve currency. So keep your eyes on any news about volume transference from Hong Kong to London in the next decade.

    418. Smallaxe says:

      K1:

      I’ve said it before
      And I’ll say it again
      Smallaxe sure knows
      When he picks a
      Good Friend
      🙂

      Peace Always My Friend

    419. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Smallaxe, that was ace!

      I’m only reluctant in the sense that I’m all too aware of Orwell’s rather caustic observations about Nationalism (‘Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception’, for example); I’m actually liking our particular form of Nationalism so far. It’s far more righteous than dangerous.

    420. K1 says:

      Then why not ‘put down the masters tools’ Reluctant Nationalist? Why ‘define’ your stance according to ‘another’s’ grim description which you do not ‘agree’ with?

      Enthusiastic Civic Nationalist?

      Bold Civic Nationalist?

      D’ye see the positive and live accordingly or be defined by old outmoded negative connotations.

      Don’t be defined by your reluctance to engage with what you believe in, define yourself according to how you truly feel about your position regarding our self determination in Scotland.

      😉

    421. Lenny Hartley says:

      Smallaxe , hopefully he and Indyref2 will be back as their input is valued.

      Unfortunately the relentless negativity of the Rock gets to us all, I would like to think his heart is in the right place but I don’t see anything that comes from him as contributing to the debate.
      Maybe he isn’t a troll, but if any trolls want to know how to disrupt a blog he will be their tutor. Guess we all have to be disciplined in not feeding trolls whether real or acting like one.

    422. Smallaxe says:

      Lenny Hartley:

      I’ve spoken to Ian on O/T, seems he got your e-mail. Thanks, that was kind of you, My Friend.Lots of great people on here, we are privileged to have such a forum.

      Peace Always

    423. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Yeah, I suppose I shouldn’t self-flagellate, K1. I’ll have a think…

    424. Smallaxe says:

      Reluctant Nationalist:

      You are more than welcome My Friend, I see that K1 has been on to you also.Take his advice, he is one of the best posters on here.
      (If you’re reading this K1, you owe me a pint).

      Seriously, though, Orwell’s nationalism is not ours, we are civic nationalists and if anyone thinks or tells you otherwise, K1 will see to them.
      🙂

      Think about changing that Handle, man.

      Peace Always

    425. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Smallaxe: ‘…we are civic nationalists and if anyone thinks or tells you otherwise, K1 will see to them.‘

      Haha! Yes, ‘civic’. That reminds me of Machiavelli’s caution that ‘One should not make threats first and then request authority’. So maybe not a good idea to exhibit positivity by calling myself ‘Proud Nationalist – Independence now or else’.

      I think it’s better to miss out the ‘Nationalist’ moniker altogether. Rev, if you’re reading my shite, would you be able to change my username to ‘Robert Colwan’? FYI, Smallaxe/K1, Robert was the good Jekyll to Gil-Martin’s Hyde in James Hoggs’ book. Unlike in the book where Robert eventually, er, hangs himself (I’m not too good at this am I), I will purge myself of that evil Gil unionist propaganda that I’ve had to swallow my whole life and will triumph oh yes.

    426. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      I think that sarcasm was maybe so subtle as to fall under Poe’s Law, so no Rev, don’t change my name to that. Robert was actually a dick (shut up).

    427. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      What he says. And thanks for the email.

      The troll is NOT the problem. I repeat. The troll is NOT the problem. A troll is a troll is a troll. They destroyed many UseNet newsgroups, unless the posters there – whatever their differences – united against the troll. And ignored it, just pointing it out for new posters or lurkers. Then they go away for easier suckers, taking their fishing line and hooks with them. I don’t get angry with trolls, they are trolls, that’s all. Some of them very good at their art.

      The problem is indeed those innocents that feed the troll, those that get suckered into having a “conversation” with the troll, those that argue with the troll, those that think the troll “has a point”. The troll does NOT have an opinion, it doesn’t care. It will have any point that people might agree with so that it can sucker them in too.

      Yes I provoked the troll – I’ve been doing that for 4 threads or so. to get its attention – and then I don’t feed it. I ignore it. It gets distracted for a time. But the only way you will get rid of trolls is to put apart your differences, your differences in opinions, not use the troll against each other or to support your point of view, but ignore it.

      By the way, people seem to have missed my “tag-team” post. There are a few trolls in here now. The long-resident one has brought its pals as there’s easy meat, easy pickings. It seems to me smallaxe has the hang of that. But perhaps the Rev should post a guide on trolls, how to spot them, how to deal with them.

      Adios amigos, back to the rugby. I hope this forum is still here, but in working order, if I come back. Which with the current state of affairs and troll encouragement, I doubt.

    428. Clapper57 says:

      @YesIndyRef2

      “But perhaps the Rev should post a guide on trolls, how to spot them, how to deal with them”.

      Hi, he does under header ‘About us'( At top of page) just scroll down when on page.

      Have a good day , enjoy Rugby.Cheers

    429. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      yesindyref2, do you think I’m in the ‘tag-team’? Just want to be sure as you’ve not named any names. Please don’t think of responding to this simple question as feeding a troll. I just want to establish where we stand.

    430. Smallaxe says:

      Nationalist:

      Welcome aboard.
      🙂

      Peace Always

    431. Lochside says:

      I’ve not been on this site for a couple of days and it’s not pretty. Rock is not a troll. He asks questions that are valid…even more so as the last few weeks have confirmed his pessimistic posts. I agree with much of what he questions. I am not as pessimistic as him, but he has a right to question and receive answers or arguments against.

      Scrolling through the last day’s contributions, the usual pattern is repeated: abusive insults of ‘troll’ and worse by the rat pack of usual suspects. Robert Peffers absurd and frankly wrong accounts of Scottish history are swallowed wholesale on here. That’s why I have challenged him in the past while. I find it offensive that misleading information has been assimilated on her that has led to ridiculous optimism instaed of grim reality. Example? the Supreme Court farrago. Go back and read the false predictions people made on here about how our ‘sovereignty’ would be validated by the glove puppet English court with its two’ Scottish’ serfs.

      I could go on, but there is a nasty scapegoating mindset which has materialised. An intolerance of dissenters. If you don’t like Rock or anyone else, including me, scroll on. The site always had debate and tes,real trolls. Let’s work together and accept we’re a broad church aiming to achieve Scotland’s freedom no matter how much we disagree with each other.

    432. Lochside says:

      Apologies for spelling mistakes.Written in a hurry.

    433. heedtracker says:

      Let’s work together and accept we’re a broad church aiming to achieve Scotland’s freedom no matter how much we disagree with each other.

      He’s called Rock for a reason, not Lambchop or Fluffy Bunny. He punches into discussions very hard, with exact same troll stuff, the National is bad, there is no such thing as sovereignty.

      In doing so, YESers btl automatically feel they need to defend and thats it. Any constructive and informative btl commenting is blown away by the Rock, over and over. Instead we could be discussing the what and why,

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

      got swatted aside last week, in that historic Commons debate.

      Or we could even be talking about how and why an Edinburgh QC actually became an SNP MP, what she hopes to achieve, what she wants to see Scotland as a nation state become and why. She’s exceptional in that YES voting Embro QC’s are not exactly a common occurrence.

      Instead we have watch a troll called Rock blitz it all.

      Hope that helps you Lochside. Rocks also a ball aching bore.

    434. Lenny Hartley says:

      Les Wilson/Robert Peffers re EU petition I mention yesterday, the question was along the lines of “what rules or laws are in place to strip me off my European Citizenship should My fellow Scots vote to dissolve the UK” first it went to the Petitions committee who said (privately) there’s nothing in our opinion you would remain an EUbcitizen on top of your National status, however it was then discussed by the Conference of Presidents who decreed that they could not make a judgement as it would be interfering in the affairs of a member State.

      I presume there will be nothing to stop them after article 50 has been enacted.

    435. K1 says:

      From the About Us page at the top of the site, just literally ‘saying’.

      ‘2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).

      And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. We’ll decide if someone’s trolling or not. But in the meantime, if you think they are, ignore them.

      If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

      Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.’

      Now that you have shown up Lochside.

      I’m awaiting the apology from your good self for attacking me personally last week?

      As we are a broad church then you must accept some flak for indulging in the quite nasty and insulting comments to another poster who you had no previous contact with on the back of your attack of Robert’s view of history?

      I await your explanation for ‘that’ behaviour whilst you back up Rock’s complaints about Robert’s ‘sovereignty’ because you hold the same view. Thereby rationalising your own ‘outbursts’ on here about Robert’s pov.

      What purpose did it serve on here to make a swipe at me and on what ‘evidence’ did you base your baseless accusation that I, number 1, was an ‘acolyte’ and then when I made an obvious, cheeky comment the following day regarding your questioning of Robert out came number 2 full brutal needless pathetic ‘personal’ attack on my character?

      On the first occasion I responded and thanked you for your ‘history’ input and questioned the veracity of your claim that I was an ‘acolyte’. Which you completely ignored. After you attacked me ‘personally’ for no other reason than a cheeky wee ‘aside’ I again asked you to provide evidence of your assertions?

      To date you have provided nothing.

      So basically Lochside I won’t be paying much attention to your input on here as I had previously done on the back of your outrageous outburst and I certainly will not avert my eyes from the hypocrisy you have just indulged in whilst defending Rock’s position on here.

      You think people don’t see ye and what ye done?

      Apologise Lochside. You were bang out of order. Or provide the evidence that supports your insulting of my character on the basis that I am a ‘wee sneak’ or ‘acolyte’?

      Big part of maintaining a broad church is mending fences and living yer life in a principled and honest manner as much as possible. That extends to ‘online’ interactions as much as to ‘physical’ interactions.

    436. K1 says:

      I owe ye more than a ‘pint’ Smallaxe. Where hearts meet there is no division. Your heart is in your words. Mine’s is grateful for your friendship.

    437. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Smallaxe: ‘Welcome aboard. 🙂 ‘

      Thank you!

      Btw, if you ever use dactylic hexameter/pentameter in one of your poems, I just might platz. Tricky, and you’ll need enjambment, but so worth it. Hint hint.

    438. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      All I can add re: Rock, Yesindyref2 and Ian B.

      DIVIDED WE FALL

      Indy Supporters are a ‘broad church’ we don’t have all agree all the time about every subject and that leads to discussion,debate and a greater understanding and enlarged armoury of fact and reasoned argument.

      That is our strength.

      That is WoS purpose.

      Ian and Yesindyref2 I sincerely hope you’re both no awa tae bide awa.

      Smallaxe, glad to see you posting again and hope you are well.

      Rock, maybes take a step back or go O/T rather than choke a thread?

      REMEMBER DIVIDE & CONQUER IS WESTMINSTERS GAME NOT OURS.

    439. Ian Betts says:

      The Belfast Telegraph seems to have managed a headline that fits the article http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/no-reason-independent-scotland-would-fail-to-join-eu-35442669.html

    440. K1 says:

      Ian Betts link archived:

      http://archive.is/72zI0

    441. Rock says:

      K1,

      “I won’t say the same for Ian cause he’s been dog sick tired of Rock since before I even appeared btl on Wings, which was in September 2013.”

      I post this exchange for your enlightenment:

      Ian Brotherhood (on “With a straight face”):

      “@Rock –

      I will welcome you, guarantee your safety, and ensure that you get the opportunity to address the gathering with your thoughts and concerns.”

      Very shortly followed by:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “@Rock (12.04) –

      Oh FFS, you’re back?”

      Ian Brotherhood (on “With a straight face”):

      “@Rock –

      Why do you actually even bother?

      I mean, seriously? Why?”

      Rock responds:

      “What a hypocrite you are. As “socialist” as Kezia.

      This is not your blog.”

      The likes of “Ian Brotherhood” and “yesindyref2” attack(ed) and provoke(d) any poster who has a different point of view then them.

      An earlier exchange with “Ian Brotherhood”:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “If you were given the opportunity to fill half a page of the National with your views on that same paper, would you take it, or decline ‘on principle’?

      Rock responds:

      “Forget about me.

      But can you ask yourself why Stuart has not been given a single opportunity to express his views in the ‘pro-independence’ The National?”

      This question is as relevant today as it was 2 years ago.

    442. Rock says:

      I was once defending Thepnr:

      “XXXXX, you are making petty points about Thepnr’s real life experience and what he feels about it.

      There are two sides of a coin – the giver is giving out of pity but the receiver is acutely aware of his helplessness in having to receive charity.

      With independence, we want to get rid of this poverty and helplessness in Scotland.

      I would prefer to be poorer in an independent Scotland than ever again be called a scrounger or subsidy junky, of which I am neither.”

    443. Rock says:

      We were very much on the same side:

      Thepnr,

      “I truly believe more than 50% of Labour voters will eventually vote Yes on the day. That will win the referendum for the Yes side.”

      Rock responds:

      “I would very much hope so.

      I would also like to see Scotland’s most deprived people to be the very first ones to taste the fruits of independence.”

    444. Rock says:

      Then we disagreed and he has been provoking and attacking me ever since:

      Thepnr,

      “Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”

      Rock responds:

      “Target and embrace the ones who can be persuaded.

      That is why the Radical Independence Campaign was so successful and the Yes campaign in the SNP “heartlands” a disaster.

      Do you seriously believe that spending limited resources on persuading Tories in Scotland to vote for independence is a good idea?”

    445. Rock says:

      The “troubles” started after the likes of “Paula Rose” (Green activist), “Natasha” (Unionist agent) and “Robert Peffers” (the most knowledgeable historian and legal expert in Scotland in 310 years) started posting:

      Paula Rose,

      “Fred – Rock took against me a while back, as yet he/she has run away from all invitations to debate away from main threads in rooms on wings where we could have a debate.”

      Rock responds:

      “These are the sort of comments you make on “main threads”:

      “(but it was only a pair of kickers)”

      “(can I sit on Petethecamera’s lap like last time if there are too many trucks?)”

      It is clear that you have no intention of answering the question I have been asking you regarding the Greens standing candidates against the SNP in the recent Westminster election.

      As I said, I am only attacking hypocrisy.

      And pedantry.

      And sycophancy.”

    446. Rock says:

      Lochside,

      “Rock is not a troll. He asks questions that are valid…even more so as the last few weeks have confirmed his pessimistic posts.”

      “Go back and read the false predictions people made on here about how our ‘sovereignty’ would be validated by the glove puppet English court with its two’ Scottish’ serfs.”

      For the record, my prediction was:

      “If the twats in the Supreme Court delay Brexit, and blame the Scots for it, it will only be for the benefit of the Establishment, not because of Scotland’s pretendy “sovereignty”.”

    447. K1 says:

      Ian Brotherhood (on “With a straight face”):

      “@Rock –

      I will welcome you, guarantee your safety, and ensure that you get the opportunity to address the gathering with your thoughts and concerns.”

      ‘Very shortly followed by:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “@Rock (12.04) –

      Oh FFS, you’re back?”

      Ian Brotherhood (on “With a straight face”):

      You’ve accidentally reversed the order. Ian actually said the ‘Oh FFS, you’re back?’ after your first comment on that thread. It was after this part of the exchange that he said the next part about welcoming you and guaranteeing your safety.

      Here is the actual total conversation in the ‘order’ that took place between you and Ian on ‘With a Straight face’:

      Rock says:
      18 March, 2016 at 12:04 am
      What did the “independence supporting” The National have to say about this?

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 March, 2016 at 12:20 am
      @Rock (12.04) –

      Oh FFS, you’re back?

      Never mind what The National had to say about it – what do YOU have to say about it?

      ahundredthidiot says:
      18 March, 2016 at 12:24 am
      Jesus Ian B

      Why encourage him!!

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 March, 2016 at 12:28 am
      @ahundredthidiot –

      Sorry, I just can’t bear to witness such loneliness.

      ?

      Rock says:
      18 March, 2016 at 1:01 am
      Ian Brotherhood,

      “Never mind what The National had to say about it – what do YOU have to say about it?”

      Do you too hold shares in Newsquest?

      Are you voting socialist, Green, Rise or SNP in May?

      I have to say that what the Rev. Stuart Campbell posts here is what should be appearing in Scotland’s only “independence supporting” newspaper.

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 March, 2016 at 1:23 am
      @Rock –

      How I intend to vote is irrelevant, but here’s a thought:

      Why don’t you come to Waxy O’Connor’s in Glasgow, on Saturday March 26th, late afternoon. I will welcome you, guarantee your safety, and ensure that you get the opportunity to address the gathering with your thoughts and concerns.

      Many WOS regulars will be there. You will be safe, and you will be heard. You have supporters here, right? Well, some of them may also be there.

      What say ye, Rock?

      Up for it?

      Rock says:
      18 March, 2016 at 10:09 pm
      Ian Brotherhood,

      “@Rock (12.04) –

      Oh FFS, you’re back?”

      Ian Brotherhood,

      @Rock –

      I will welcome you, guarantee your safety, and ensure that you get the opportunity to address the gathering with your thoughts and concerns.”

      My thoughts and concerns posted here are attacked by you and some others in the same way as Scottish Labour attacks anything SNP.

      ————————————–

      This section that you cite:

      ‘Ian Brotherhood (on “With a straight face”):

      “@Rock –

      Why do you actually even bother?

      I mean, seriously? Why?”

      Rock responds:

      “What a hypocrite you are. As “socialist” as Kezia.

      This is not your blog.”

      Is not on the thread ‘With a Straight face’.

      —————————————————-

      As for the other parts you are quoting, to support your case that you are being got at. I don’t know what to say. You obviously feel you are being treated ‘unfairly’.

      When I browsed the ‘With a straight face’ thread, there were a couple of people who clearly did support your outlook regarding the National and some who didn’t Rock, which is fair enough?

      I don’t know what you can do about what you feel about being ‘got at’, by what you have termed as a ‘gang’ on here.

      You may have to just scroll past those comments Rock and ‘not bite’?

      ————————————–

      As you are aware ah do not have a ‘strong’ opinion regarding the National, but I do have a general one which is at least we have some voices that reflect our position in the ‘mainstream’ more that we did before. That’s it. Our opinions differ, no need to keep arguing about it, we can agree to disagree…amicably.

      On the matter of ‘sovereignty’ there are differences of opinion too. Why not apply the same yardstick there too. Agree to differ.

      I get the ‘negativity’ angle, you are relentless in that regard. Allow others to have their ‘positive hopeful’ position. Yes we all see how things are going down, we all get it, but what exactly is the point in pointing out how utterly fucked we are, which seems to be your default ‘stance’ when it comes to the sovereign aspect?

      Fine that you view it that way, again others find that aspect interesting and informative and helpful in understanding what we are up against, which just makes us more determined to find some way of utilising this aspect in the face of the odds against it being successful. I don’t know if you can get your head around that?

      We’re not all falling at Robert’s feet and it’s a bit arrogant if indeed you are ‘assuming’ that we are? There are as many ways to view a situation as there are the number of viewers Rock. You don’t have the monopoly on ‘the truth’, you have your own version which will be mired in your own particular circumstantial upbringing which informs your outlook. Same as everyone else?

      We’re at 49/50%, half the voting population is at least considering voting for our Independence, when have we ever been there Rock? So it’s a matter of perspective and others including you of course are completely entitled to their own perspective, no?

      Let’s get on wi the battle to win over as many ‘shaky’ voters as we can and get the job done.

      You’ve made your point about feeling ‘got at’. Now it’s time to let it go. You have others on here who share some of your views, but do not expect others who differ in their outlook to not argue forcibly against them either.

      It seems to me if you can apply yourself to utilising your own pov to bring on board more independence supporters with well constructed arguments formed around the positive aspects of gaining our independence and by pointing out the negative aspects of remaining in the Union then and only then do people ‘lean in’.

      But when your arguments centre around telling people they are gullible for buying a newspaper, or because they are not native born, or because they are middle class and of an older generation (I’m generalising for effect), in other words ‘blaming’ and ‘decrying’ and suggesting all manner of ‘barring’ certain demographic slices of the population, you set up a ‘bar’ to constructive dialogue around the more salient reasons for our independence?

      You also set up an ‘us and them’ framework of reference and the trouble with that is that it is ‘divisive’ and ‘alienating’. Because Rock what if one is working class living in a middle class area amongst mostly No voting friends and neighbours or has friends who were not born in Scotland but have lived here their whole lives and contributed not just with taxes, but in the community they live in and have voted yes in the last indyref?

      That’s where I will argue relentlessly with you and others on here, on those particular points. Because they are not in the least ‘helpful’ or ‘productive’ in gaining our independence, in fact those views could very well serve to ostracise those from those demographic slices and set us back in our cause.

      But hey! That’s just my opinion.

      Btw anyone who posts on Wings is by default ‘naturally’ non conformist, we’re aw rebels Rock in our own unique ways, we’d huv tae be wouldn’t we?

      Take it easy 😉

    448. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      That was a lovely post, K1.

      Btw, Rock, I pay attention to your posts, and I ‘get’ your style. There’s a bit of me that’s just like you, but I reckon it’s not the bit I should be showing too much; maybe just enough to squirt some piss on someone’s chips, but if they keep on eating those chips and saying ‘MMM THESE CHIPS ARE GREAT’ then I’ll put trust in the critical faculties of those reading to make up their own minds. Cos I’m great like that.

      There, now I hope that I have been suitably patronising, especially for a newcomer, and will bid you nighty night, sir.

    449. K1 says:

      I’m not entirely sure what your post is about RN?

      Are you ‘patronising’ me?

      If you are I don’t ‘feel’ patronised cause I haven’t a clue what the ‘meaning’ of your post is in relation to my response to Rock’s comments directed at me?

      Care to clarify?

    450. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Yet Wings conveniently forgets that the EU condition of having a deficit of not much more than 3% is not only a very long way from being met by Scotland, but is virtually impossible to meet given the present state of the Scottish economy.
      And let’s not forget Spain’s veto.”

      Sigh.

      (1) The deficit requirement is for joining the Euro, not the EU.

      (2) For the eight hundred thousand trillionth time, Spain (a) has no veto over Scotland STAYING in the EU rather than joining it, and (b) has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN VETOING US ANYWAY, AS THEY REPEATEDLY MAKE CLEAR.

      If you could try to be just 10% less of a complete idiot we’d all appreciate it.

    451. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ K1

      No no, I was addressing Rock, and only Rock after the first sentence of my post. Apropos of nothing much specifically in your post, more just my tuppence-worth.

      X

    452. Al-Stuart says:

      Another excellent article thanks Stu.,

      An interesting thing happened recently….

      The Daily mail has been given it’s P45 in a rather embarrassing eviction as a “reliable” source for factual information on Wikipedia.

      The worldwide website of information has decided that source material from the Daily Mail is a load of bull$hit and they can feck right off. Although they phrased it in a slightly different manner.

      More information of the Daily Mail ban here…

      http://tinyurl.com/jln9aw5

      Tick tock 🙂

    453. K1 says:

      Ah…got ye RN. That’s why I’ve taken tae drawing lines tae distinguish when I’m referring to different posters in the one comment, plus to break up rather lengthy responses. Cheers for the clarification.

    454. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Nae worries, K1.

    455. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Not quite @Al-Stuart says at 1:05 am

      “The Daily mail has been given it’s P45”

      Not from the old ‘What the papers say bit o’ BBC/SKY etc.’ it’s not.

      Remember It’s only fake news when it’s not spreading the shit the establishment wants spread.

    456. Dorothy Devine says:

      Afternoon Mr Peffers , I am still puzzled as to its survival – where is the money coming from to back a paper with such low circulation figures ?

      I used to post on their site way back in 2012 and during that time there was a stooshie about staff working blt.

      Ronnie and Smallaxe, how are you both? Tell me more about the man Pearson ,I had a better impression of him than you but mine is probably mistaken.

    457. Iain More says:

      When I think about our so called Press and Media it isn’t a centrifuge that comes to mind but the film Possessed and a spinning head and projectile vomit.

    458. Rock says:

      K1

      “On the matter of ‘sovereignty’ there are differences of opinion too. Why not apply the same yardstick there too. Agree to differ.”

      I wonder if you could suggest that to Robert Peffers?

      “We’re not all falling at Robert’s feet and it’s a bit arrogant if indeed you are ‘assuming’ that we are?”

      If not you, quite a lot are.

      I did not want to post the whole thread, but what I posted was a fair representation.

      Ian Brotherhood is a socialist activist who can’t stand opposing viewpoints.

      He tried to lure me with a bogus ‘guarantee’, as bogus as the ‘vow’, and that was my point.

    459. Rock says:

      K1,

      “I don’t know what you can do about what you feel about being ‘got at’, by what you have termed as a ‘gang’ on here.”

      Don’t worry about me K1, I can defend myself, or rather I can defend the points I make.

      I make a point after careful consideration and am able to defend it.

      Those who attack me can’t defend their points and therefore “play the man”.

      For example, the “colony” exchange with “yesindyref2” (on “A matter of disclosure”)

      I just wanted to put the record straight to newcomers like yourself on how some troublemakers arrived on the scene and started wrecking threads, for which I am being blamed.

      What do you make of my early exchanges with Thepnr?

    460. Rock says:

      K1,

      “Allow others to have their ‘positive hopeful’ position.”

      I robustly counter points I believe are wrong (eg “sovereignty”).

      But unlike those who attack me, I don’t think I have ever demanded that someone stop posting.

    461. Rock says:

      K1,

      “We’re at 49/50%, half the voting population is at least considering voting for our Independence, when have we ever been there Rock? ”

      We were at 51% days before the referendum before the big bosses of the likes of Asda scared to death marginal Yes voters into voting No.

      Being “positive” is one thing, being “realistic” is another.

      Look at what being “positive” about an SNP majority government did.

      Myself and some other posters had been warning about the dangers of giving the list vote to the Greens.

      I was also warning about Green activists, masquerading as SNP activists, duping SNP supporters into giving the list vote to the Greens.

      My “negativity” was proven right.

      Same with my “negativity” about “sovereignty”.

      The twats in the Supreme Court demolished the “positivity” of armchair pundits on this blog.

    462. Rock says:

      K1,

      “That’s where I will argue relentlessly with you and others on here, on those particular points.”

      So will I, but I will not demand that someone stop posting.

    463. Rock says:

      Reluctant Nationalist,

      “Btw, Rock, I pay attention to your posts, and I ‘get’ your style. There’s a bit of me that’s just like you, but I reckon it’s not the bit I should be showing too much;”

      Everyone has their own style.

      This blog is not only by far the best at providing the facts and exposing unionist lies, it is the best example of free speech in this rotten to the core union of kingdoms.

    464. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Hi Rock. I don’t know about the free speech part; not that it needs to be a place that attempts to succeed in applying that practically impossible concept. I don’t need it to be, though. I can go to mumsnet if I want to spew my filthy bile.

    465. K1 says:

      Thanks for your response Rock.

      I don’t know how you can sustain your ‘hurt’ about how badly treated you feel, but ‘hurt’ is the word that I feel best describes what you perceive as those poster’s you cite as the cause of you feeling ‘got at’? You are ‘hurt’ by the manner in which you feel dismissed by them, no?

      When we feel ‘got at’ we either lash out at those we feel are to blame. Or we have nothing more to do with those we feel ’caused’ the hurt.

      Which is why I suggested ‘scroll past’.

      ——————————————

      In terms of ‘being right’ or ‘wrong’ about what outcomes occur, even if as you state you ‘got it right’ on those occasions you cite to back up your assertion. Well, what exactly do you want for predicting an outcome that matched your expectations?

      These are your ‘expectations’ and Rock there will be as many events and outcomes that you don’t get ‘right’ as there are that you ‘may’ correctly intuit?

      Other posters have given you ‘credence’ and support your views Rock, but you are very focused on the ‘gang’ and the names that you keep citing who do not support your views and who may not give you the ‘credence’ for being ‘right’?

      Why does is matter so much what these people that you are focused on ‘think’ of you?

      —————————————————-

      I’m not ‘new’ in the sense of length of time posting and have witnessed the interplay. Have generally just avoided the back and forth between yourself and other posters…as ‘none of ma business’.

      Which I intend to continue doing.

      Imv, I don’t see the ‘point’ of ‘you’ continually pursuing lines of argument with posters that you have this ‘history’ with?

      Also, I am not going to make comment on some posters that you have referred to Rock. They can only speak for themselves. For one simple reason. I’m not taking ‘sides’ on this.

      What occurred way back then/when is done and I can only finish on what I more or less said earlier: Let it go Rock, there is no point in pursuing this and when you do pursue it Rock it genuinely just interrupts the ‘current’ topics and threads and other posters who have no involvement with this get a bit scunnered.

      You can’t ‘make’ ‘them’ whoever ‘them’ is in our own heids, change their mind’s Rock.

      ——————————————————

      ‘I wonder if you could suggest that to Robert Peffers?

      I was suggesting that as ‘general’ tactic Rock, for anyone on this or any forum.

      If you don’t agree with someone, make your points and if the debate and the back and forth does not result in a change of position/outlook in either proponent’s ‘stance’, why not just accept it and move on? That’s the essence of what I mean by ‘agree to differ’. Amicably.

      ————————————-

    466. Rock says:

      K1,

      “‘I wonder if you could suggest that to Robert Peffers?

      I was suggesting that as ‘general’ tactic Rock, for anyone on this or any forum.”

      A ‘general’ tactic in a lengthy post directed at me?

      Suggest it directly to Robert Peffers if you dare.

      Or admit that you too are “falling at Robert’s feet”.

    467. K1 says:

      Rock, ‘agreeing to differ’ isn’t some novel concept, do you agree with that?

      It seems to me you have picked that one sentence out of my ‘lengthy post’ to dare me to prove that I’m not ‘falling at Robert’s feet’.

      Am I correct that this is a ‘point’ that ‘you’ want to focus on?

      Is it your intention to somehow ‘undermine’ all the other points I have raised with you in ‘our’ ‘discussion’ Rock, by throwing down a ‘gauntlet’ to ‘prove’ that you are ‘right’ in terms of your ‘beef’ with Robert, Rock? That the ‘only’ thing you are interested in is ‘proving that you are right’ regarding his take of ‘sovereignty’?

      To in effect ‘characterise’ my ‘entire’ input to you as coming down to this one ‘point’ and that ‘point’ is that if I don’t fulfil your ‘dare’ I’m somehow ‘hypocritical’ and the only way for me ‘to prove’ to you that I’m not is if I state that exact same ‘term’ to Robert Peffers?

      That you’ve imbued my suggestion that to ‘agree to differ’ was a singular arrow aimed at ‘you ‘specifically?

      Now only ‘you’ can decide whether I’m/others are ‘worthy’ in some way if I/they ‘enact’ a ‘dare’?

      Seriously?

      ——————————–

      Here are the two paragraphs ‘in context’ where I used those terms Rock, the first specifically outlining ‘in general’ the concept of ‘agreeing to differ’. I then utilised this same concept to make the point on the ‘particular’ subject of ‘sovereignty’ Rock, as obviously this is the ‘salient’ issue that ‘you’ have Rock, with regard to Robert Peffers:

      ‘As you are aware ah do not have a ‘strong’ opinion regarding the National, but I do have a general one which is at least we have some voices that reflect our position in the ‘mainstream’ more that we did before. That’s it. Our opinions differ, no need to keep arguing about it, we can agree to disagree…amicably.

      On the matter of ‘sovereignty’ there are differences of opinion too. Why not apply the same yardstick there too. Agree to differ.’

      It’s clear as daylight what I am saying here Rock. I’m suggesting an approach that is amicable when we disagree with others. Are you seriously telling me that you think this is some sort of ‘direct’ ‘order’ that I am giving ‘you’ specifically and therefore I should go tell Robert Peffers….what?

      Your confusion regarding my first two paragraphs and conflating them with the first sentence from the 9th paragraph is merely you revealing that you are actually ‘obsessed’ with Robert Peffers Rock? Because look again at the ‘context’ of the 9th paragraph:

      ‘We’re not all falling at Robert’s feet and it’s a bit arrogant if indeed you are ‘assuming’ that we are? There are as many ways to view a situation as there are the number of viewers Rock. You don’t have the monopoly on ‘the truth’, you have your own version which will be mired in your own particular circumstantial upbringing which informs your outlook. Same as everyone else?’

      It’s startlingly clear that the ‘point’ I’m making throughout my ‘lengthy posts’ and asking you about specifically is why you are so bothered when you could let it go and I’ve gone into the detail of the ‘how’ of this: ‘agree to differ’, ‘amicably’.

      _________________________________________________

      I’m not a ‘child’ Rock and I stopped doing ‘truth, dare, double dare, command’ when I was about 10 years old or so.

      I’m deeply sorry that you have misunderstood the meaning of my posts Rock. I don’t know if what you are having difficulty with is the fault of some lack of comprehension skills or a deliberate and wilful ignoring of the broad meaning and intent of what I have written to you.

      It seems to me that you can’t or won’t let go of the ‘bee in your bonnet’ regarding Mr Peffers and possibly other posters and well that’s fine and entirely up to you Rock.

      I was having a ‘conversation’ with you Rock. There was a lot more to my input than what you have ‘reduced’ it to. That’s fine. Let’s just leave it at that. Shall we?

      Take care Rock.

    468. Rock says:

      K1,

      “Rock, ‘agreeing to differ’ isn’t some novel concept, do you agree with that?”

      So why are you preaching it to me then?

      On the current blog, this is what another poster had to tell Robert Peffers:

      “However I will say this – watch your language – that is a disgraceful comment.”

      The “disgraceful comment” by Robert Peffers was:

      “Stop being a bloody fool, nodrog.”

      If there is anyone who needs “Agree to differ”, it is Robert Peffers.

      Since you suggested it to me, why don’t you have the courage to suggest it to Robert Peffers?

      I responded in detail to your post yesterday.

    469. Rock says:

      K1,

      “It seems to me that you can’t or won’t let go of the ‘bee in your bonnet’ regarding Mr Peffers”

      If any poster has a ‘bee in his bonnet’, it is Robert Peffers.

      These are some of his responses to anyone with different views:

      “Stop being a bloody fool”

      “Sheesh! Are you really as bloody stupid as that comment indicates you are?”

      “How bloody stupid are you, Rock?”

      “The reason is the bloody clowns and congenital idiots exactly like you who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.”

      If you can accept such insults by Robert Peffers, you are one of those “falling at Robert’s feet”.

    470. Rock says:

      K1,

      My exact original words were:

      “I wonder if you could suggest that to Robert Peffers?”

      No dare, no demand.

      But you responded with a lengthy lecture without accepting that you were being one-sided.

    471. K1 says:

      ‘Suggest it directly to Robert Peffers if you dare.

      You are seriously going back to your ‘original’ comment? Does that cancel out your ‘latest’ actual comment that I am directly referring to ‘accurately’ in context?

      I explicitly stated that I would not take sides Rock. You are literally ‘selecting’ from my posts the comments that match your ‘bee’ in ‘your bonnet. Literally re writing the exchange and finishing on:

      ‘If you can accept such insults by Robert Peffers, you are one of those “falling at Robert’s feet”.’

      You are overreaching Rock. It’s clear you have deep seated issues regarding Mr Peffers and other posters. You are not some judge and jury on here Rock, kindly refrain from relating to me in this childish manner. Ta.

    472. Rock says:

      K1,

      “I explicitly stated that I would not take sides Rock.”

      But you clearly are taking sides.

      I just provided you examples of the insults Robert Peffers uses against those with differing views.

      But you keep on preaching to me.

      No point in responding to you on this thread any more. Anyone reading the exchanges above can make up their own minds.

    473. K1 says:

      No Rock, you ‘want’ me to take sides. And because I won’t you ‘naturally’ ‘accuse’ me of taking another’s side. As I said deeply sorry that you have misunderstood my ‘conversation’ with you Rock.

      Yes I’m sure they can Rock.

      You did say ‘dare’ Rock. Always fascinating what you ‘don’t’ respond to, eh.

      Take care Rock.

    474. K1 says:

      The minute I ‘engaged’ I was already ‘dead’. Obvs. 😉

    475. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      That was me jumping out the window. But I’m really pretending. There’s a big soft mat just a few feet below.

    476. K1 says:

      Am a ghost of ma former self after that.

    477. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Steel yourself. I have a feeling it’s not over yet…



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