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A division of principles

Posted on February 09, 2017 by

Below is part of a segment from Monday’s edition of Good Morning Scotland (from 2h 35m at the link beneath the clip), which featured an interview with Professor Allyson Pollock, an extremely experienced academic in the field of healthcare on both sides of the border who so far as we know has no dog in the Scottish constitutional fight.

(Good Morning Scotland, BBC Radio Scotland, 6 February 2017)

We thought it was worth the infinite pain of transcription to get it down in writing.


HAYLEY MILLAR (BBC SCOTLAND): How do the [English and Scottish NHS] systems, or services, compare?

PROF. POLLOCK: Well, I think there’s a very important background message to this story, which is that the NHS in England was abolished by the Health And Social Care Act in 2012.

So what’s happening is that in England the NHS is now rapidly being dismantled and privatised – both the delivery and opened up to user charges and changes in funding.  And that has a big impact for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which still have their NHS.

Because the funding for the NHS in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales comes through something called the Barnett Formula. So we already have a problem, because Scotland is going to suffer under the Barnett Formula – known as the Barnett squeeze – so the amount of money that it gets from the Treasury is being reduced.

But also, as the NHS is being dismantled in England, funding is being withdrawn from both the NHS and social care, which means that that translates into the Barnett Formula into a real reduction in funding for the countries that still have a national health service.

Nevertheless, Scotland is still much better placed than England – and indeed Wales at the moment – Scotland is in a much stronger position than England with respect to both health and social care. The problem is at the moment that the English government is not committed to a national health service – it has abolished the national health service.

The Secretary of State for Health there has no duty to provide a national health service in England, so the money is now being withdrawn from the National Health Service in England.

And as it’s withdrawn from England, the Treasury at the same time is also withdrawing the funding from Scotland.

Now, Scotland still has a national health service, but if it’s going to retain a proper national planned health service, it does indeed require more funding to come in. But that ultimately is going to be a Treasury decision.

MILLAR: Except we saw the Scottish Government, didn’t we, Allyson Pollock, last week in the budget, saying that there would be more money for the NHS.

POLLOCK: Well, that’s true, but there’s only a limit as to what it can do with the pot of money that it gets from the Treasury, and that is being squeezed, because basically, the Scottish Government gets what’s called a block grant from the Treasury under the fiscal settlement, but it has very little power to alter the size of that grant. It can only move the budget around, as it were – it’s got very limited tax-raising powers.

So actually, we… whatever happens in England, and the dismantling is happening very rapidly, if you think there’s a crisis in Scotland it’s nothing like what’s going on – and I’m here south of the border, both at times in London and in Newcastle – it’s nothing like the scale of the devastation that’s being now wrought in England.

Which is why we need the NHS in England restored, so that then the politicians south of the border will be committed to an NHS, and then the funding will come back in.

(The only edit we’ve made in the audio clip is at 2m 12s, to remove a segment with another interviewee. We haven’t altered or edited Prof. Pollock’s words in any way. All emphases are ours.)

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  1. 09 02 17 13:57

    A division of principles | speymouth

  2. 15 02 17 19:12

    The Real Reality Gap | Young Team For Independence

  3. 14 10 17 22:20

    Thomas Grant Dey |

344 to “A division of principles”

  1. baronesssamedi says:

    I heard this too but on FMQ they’re still berating Nicola

  2. scottieDog says:

    And why we need to be issuing our own gilts to fund continuation of the NHS.

  3. To be fair, the Scottish Governemnt is a bunch of mad separatists who have no respect for Victorian and Great British values.

  4. Proud Cybernat says:

    Save the SNHS – IndyRef2 Vote YES.

  5. Ian says:

    Good to hear from someone that knows what they’re talking about and not some fly by night politician whose only motives are to make money from privatisation. We need to hear more from people like these, with directly applicable experience in the subject.

  6. Macart says:

    Just so we’re clear.

    Any damage to the funding of Scottish health care has only ONE SOURCE and that is NOT the Holyrood parliament, or the Scottish Government.

    Are we about done with Barnett and the bullshit devolution settlement yet?

  7. Sinky says:

    BBC has some good interviews on radio but these never reach the more numerious TV audience and the compliant Yoon media refuse to cover such stories. Just as they ignored the UK Tory and Deputy Speaker’s contempt for Scottish MPs

    Delayed discharges can also be down to local authorities but this is never mentioned.

    O/T Labour removed the local authority ring fencing for education spending and SNP playing catch up that’s why money is now being sent directly to Head Teachers.

  8. JLT says:

    This is a prime example of where our ‘home based’ news media absolutely fail us. At no point, have the likes of BBC Scotland or Reporting Scotland (let alone the shambles that supposedly the daily printed rags), highlighted that the Scottish NHS, while not great, appears to be light years ahead of the English NHS.

    For the likes of Jackie Bird to remain po-faced as she and her colleagues continually deliver constant bad news about our NHS speaks volumes.

    This is certainly one article that will be copied and pasted onto Facebook entries whenever someone posts how desperate our NHS ‘appears’ to be. Can shoot down the ‘yoons’ by asking them if they think they know better than Professor Allyson Pollock …and if so, what qualifications they have to justify their position. Simply spouting ‘Big Tam said so doon in the pub’ …personally …just won’t cut it.

    A very good piece, Stuart.

  9. galamcennalath says:

    I seem to remember a troll on here the other day saying NHSEngland would never be privatised.

    Just wait until post Brexit and the big US health providers are set loose among the pigeons.

    The Tories, right now, are hard right. I have no doubt they will try to dismantle the NHSEng. It’s ideological, and it is ideology which is driving them on everything.

    In Scotland, our NHS will be put under enormous pressure financially as Barnett fails to deliver.

    We have a solution to hand. Perhaps the UK attitude to healthcare should be a major factor in IndyRef2. It may be triggered by Brexit, but there is much more at stake.

  10. Steve Bowers says:

    I was sair laughing when the Prof was on, BBC obviously booked the wrong person

  11. Bob MACK says:

    We are in an “end game” now. We either succeed in independence or Scotland will be destroyed to ensure we can never again gain or try to gain our freedom. This already proves they are starving Scotland of cash to make it ungovernable. More will follow.

    Public services will be eliminated. You will pay for everything or do without. People will suffer, especially the poor. I envisage a right wing state for many many years.

    Whilst others worry ,elements of the population bury their heads in newspapers or television sending them out propaganda daily on behalf of Mrs May. It is time to choose. Sleepwalking into oppression is never a good idea and we have lessons from history to prove it.

    We can retreat no further than this, because to go backward is unthinkable.

  12. Portjim says:

    NHS England abolished 2012, yet in 2016 the Boris & co Brexit bus still paraded their £350m a week extra for the NHS. The media – including the o-so-trustworthy BBC failed to point out the contradiction. Seems to me that the English population is being failed as comprehensively by their media as we are by “ours”.

  13. Ken500 says:

    Westminster Unionists are spending £500Billion on Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All disasters waiting to happen. They will be redundant before they are finished. Of little value. Making journeys take longer throughout Britain. There are credible alternative. The NHS crisis in England will continue until the Tories are voted out. 2020? They are cutting funding for NHS/Education. Scotland has no choice but to vote for Independence. Scotland has diverted funds to the SNHS.

    The screwed Barnett Formula is the reason. Westminster Treasury false accounting.

  14. galamcennalath says:

    Professor Allyson Pollock is the real deal, not one of those so called experts wheeled onto the BBC or quoted in the MSM spouting dross on areas outside their academic competence.

    The problem is, a lot of ordinary folks who don’t follow politics in detail can’t tell the difference. Many will trust the BBC in particular to present on bona fida experts.

    Post this from Prof Pollock far and wide!

  15. Conan the Librarian says:

    Posted this on the last link, but it’s more relevant here.

    Conan the Librarian says:
    9 February, 2017 at 11:07 am
    BBC news 11.04

    *The NHS in Scotland seems to be coping bet-*

    “We seem to have lost contact with that report there.”

  16. Dr Jim says:

    Scottish politics:

    Question from Kezia Dugdale:

    Stuff’s happening that the First Minister has absolutely no control over so what is this First Minister going to do about it

    Question from Ruth Davidson:

    My party in London is wonderful and we’re srewing Scotland over right royally when is this First Minister going to give up and let me be in charge

    Answer from the First Minister: Well we’re doing the best we can despite both of your crappy parties wrecking everything but we could divorce the UK and run things ourselves by keeping our own money, how about that?

    No! No! No! No! No! No! Family of nations, better together, pooling and sharing, SNP grievance, foreigners, borders, currency, oil, NHS, pensions, poverty worse than that of Somalia, babies, invasions of warry people, nothing good can come of it

    First Minister: So you’re happy with the way things are then?

    Both Tories: No! Yes! No! Yes! eh jist jist die will ye!

  17. Black Joan says:

    This needs to be on a leaflet and posted through every door in Scotland.

    As I type, BBC Radio 4 World at One is broadcasting yet more NHS in meltdown/danger/disaster scare stories — all part of the plan to hypnotise the masses into accepting that privatisation equals salvation.

    Not in Scotland.

  18. Jack Murphy says:

    JLT said at 12:57pm:
    “…..This is certainly one article that will be copied and pasted onto Facebook entries whenever someone posts how desperate our NHS ‘appears’ to be.
    Can shoot down the ‘yoons’ by asking them if they think they know better than Professor Allyson Pollock …….”

    DONE. 🙂

  19. Stoker says:

    Another excellent article simply brilliantly done. The very powerful messages contained within need to be circulated to the wider public in Scotland, pronto!

    One of the top major everyday concerns of the general public in Scotland, or at least a very high proportion of it, is health issues. With the medias 24/7 deliberate fear mongering and deception over Britain’s 4 health authorities this article goes a long long way to sterilising the murky waters.

    There is only one true way to help protect the Scottish NHS and provide more funding for it and that is to vote for independence. Our service is currently being managed better than the other 3, and that’s with an extremely restricted budget, just think of the advances we could make with greatly increased funding. That funding can only happen with Scottish independence.

  20. heedtracker says:

    Treasury “withdraws” money from English NHS and then Scotland’s. BBC Scotland led media, SLab, tory goonshow, all go after SNP Scots gov.

    Win win UKOK.

  21. faolie says:

    Wait until the big American health corporations move in as a quid pro quo for the UK’s new ‘trade deal’ with Trump. Hopefully we’ll be moving out by then.

  22. Dave Hansell says:

    “They are cutting funding for NHS/Education.”

    Quite. Education is another strand where the real pirate parties are wreaking havoc, removing funding and experimenting with the education of children both South and North of Hadrians. The academy program is falling apart with schools failing and financial mismanagement. UTC’S are closing down, having wasted taxpayers money on a vanity project t which has been diverted from state schools not yet privatised, as here in Oldham following on from a similar tale in Wigan:

    Meanwhile a head teacher in Yorkshire is reduced to going on a sponsored run to raise funds cut from his school budget to divert to failing models in the private sector and schools are forced to go begging to parents of pupils for money to make up the shortfall.

  23. Robert Peffers says:

    @baronesssamedi says: 9 February, 2017 at 12:42 pm:

    “I heard this too but on FMQ they’re still berating Nicola.”

    If, “they”, collectively, had fallen into Loch Lomond and were collectively drowning and Nicola yelled, “Shazam!!!!”, and, (wearing her nickers over her tights and donning a cloak), was pulling them out to safety they would blame her for pushing them in in the first place.

    It’s what they do.

    It is what they think their sworn duty as, “The opposition”, is. To opposed everything the SG does.

    As is stated in the, “Bain Principle”.

    “The Bain Principle is named after Willie Bain, then Labour MP for Glasgow North East.

    In a nutshell it states that Labour will oppose whatever the SNP proposes no matter what the circumstances. Bain enunciated this in a 2012 tweet, but the policy goes back a long, long way.”

  24. John Boyes says:

    A bit more background from Allyson: Lansley and Millburn appear to be up to their necks in it.

    Professor of Public Health Research and Policy
    15 MARCH, 2016
    This first appeared in the Huffington Post UK on 14 March 2016

    Written with Peter Roderick, co-author of the NHS Bill

    On Friday, the cross party NHS Bill returned to the Commons for its second reading (watch the video). The Bill was filibustered by the Conservatives, and following only 17 minutes of debate, it was adjourned. The second reading is unlikely to continue.

    Most people are probably unaware of what’s happening. But increasingly the market is invading. Virgin now has over 300 NHS contracts, and an active litigation department. They have successfully prevented commissioners in Hull from allowing local GPs to run primary care services, and are facing a legal challenge from the local trust in Kent to their £128 million contract because of concerns about patient and staff safety. Meanwhile Monitor the regulator has now issued 114 private provider licences. The amount spent by local commissioners and trusts on non-NHS providers went up from £6.6 billion in 2009 to £10 billion in 2014. Industry analysts estimate the community services market to be worth £10bn-to £20bn annually. Trade unions have described “a surge in privatisation“.

    Nick Clegg said in 2010 that “breaking up the NHS is exactly what you do need to do“. It’s a painful irony that this is one of the more successful things the coalition government achieved. Its 2012 Health and Social Care Act, piloted by Andrew Lansley, abolished the duties of the Secretary of State to provide and secure services in accordance with the Act, and to provide listed health services throughout England. The latter was replaced by a duty on over 200 new clinical commissioning groups to make contracts for those services for persons for whom each CCG is responsible and establishing the NHS Commissioning Board (NHS England). NHS trusts were prospectively abolished, with the intention of them all becoming NHS foundation trusts which can now receive 49% of their income from outside the NHS. “Public health” functions were created as two legal categories split between the Secretary of State and local authorities, and carved out of the NHS. Virtually compulsory contractual tendering for providing NHS services was introduced and Monitor’s role as an economic regulator was extended with functions aimed at preventing anti-competitive practices.

    But the rot didn’t begin with Lansley’s Act. Ken Clarke started it in 1990 with his great split. He ended direct management of services by health authorities and created “purchasers” and “providers”, turning hospitals into ‘NHS trusts’ with borrowing powers, and their own finance, human resources and PR departments. New Labour built on that by scaling up the exorbitantly expensive Private Finance Initiative, so that for one hospital built we may be paying for two. Alan Milburn paved the way for foundation trusts, and now runs a very profitable private healthcare consultancy, while Lansley advises Bain & Company, which helps healthcare companies with their strategy.

    Politicians pushing laws from which they then benefit corrode the political process, and these laws have wasted billions of pounds, year on year. The purchaser-provider split was introduced to open up the market in health services. Providers compete for patients and service income. Lawyers, accountants and management consultants are needed to administer – and challenge – the market, and they can’t do their jobs without pulling clinicians away from theirs. Quantifying the costs of a market bureaucracy is fraught with difficulty, but the costs of a market bureaucracy are significantly more than the costs of a public bureaucracy. The House of Commons Select Committee in 2010 was “appalled” that the four most senior civil servants in the Department of Health could not tell them the cost of the market.The usually-cited figures for NHS administrative costs are about 5% before the 1980s, and 14% by 2005 – whilst in the US in 2009, about 30% was wasted on unnecessary services, excessive administrative costs, fraud, and other problems. Professor Paton puts the extra cost of the NHS market at about £5 billion.

    This sickening state of affairs need not continue, but it will unless Parliament passes a law to stop it. The NHS Bill aims to do this, by restoring the duty to provide and returning the NHS in England to full public ownership, as in Scotland and Wales, based on bottom-up proposals developed by current commissioners, trusts and local authorities with patients, voluntary organisations, trade unionists and academics.

    The most common criticism of the Bill from those who can’t see the wood for the trees is that the last thing the NHS needs is another top-down major reorganisation. Nobody wants unnecessary disruption, but massive and expensive fragmentation and disorganisation is currently underway and this is appreciated by many who work in the NHS – hence support for the Bill from Unite and the BMA.

    Over 62,000 people have signed a petition urging MPs to turn up in the Commons on Friday and to support the Bill. We wait to see whether they are worthy of our trust.

    Written by allysonpollock Posted in Health service reforms, NHS Tagged with NHS reforms, NHS r

  25. heedtracker says:

    Takes you back though, I watched Jacky Bird sneer at First Minister Salmond during a just before 18th Sept 2014 teatime news, BBC Scotland interview, “oh for fucks sake Eck, the NHS is not being privatised, you lying so and so…”

  26. wull2 says:

    Can someone please make small clips of important things, that can easily be copied and pasted on Facebook.

  27. Bill Glen says:

    Copied and shared

  28. Pete says:

    I’d love to know more about what is meant by privatisation in NHS England.
    Presumably it must be the introduction of private providers which, in many cases, can be a good thing.
    We have here in Scotland quite a few cases of private providers of cataract operations, etc.
    As far as I’m aware no one is asked to pay for services given.
    As you are aware GP’s, dentists , pharmacies are all private contractors.
    Drugs and medical equipment are purchased from private firms.
    As long as patients are not asked to pay, I find it hard to understand what is meant by privatisation.
    Personally, I would go for some additional payments being made by patients.
    For example, a nominal £20 for a GP visit , similar to how we pay for part of dental and optical services. It is only when payment is involved that consumers value a service.
    The whole funding of the NHS needs to be debated as it is important that proper funding goes into social care and directed to the deserving rather than to those who take the service for granted.

  29. Malcolm says:

    I really hope the May:Trump love in leads to US health providers entering the market as SNP guarantee an SNHS in the constitution of an independent Scotland. A few more soft “Nos” see the light. Remember, folks, just a 6% swing required.
    May is in full eat your cereal mode, Kezia is a tomb tabard and Ruthie is doing more squirming than a broon troot on a line.

  30. Greannach says:

    It’s refreshing to hear from an expert, though if Prof Robertson’s figures are right, only 5% of Scots listen to GMS now.

  31. heedtracker says:

    Youtube, here she is, oor Jacky, she has a leak, “Right shut and listen, time short, its just not true is it, NHS is not being privatised…”

    Published on Sep 16, 2014 Alex Salmond and Jackie Bird – Scotland’s Referendum 2014

    Jacky Bird or stuff what’s happening?

  32. Joemcg says:

    I reckon the two main weapons in indyref2 that could see us over the line is using threats or project fear style tactics if you prefer, is to tell older people that they will work until they die or if they survive that long they will have to sell their properties to pay for life saving healthcare. Better together would do that to us. Guaranteed. On the reverse side we could promise a lower retirement age, higher pensions and of course retaining a free NHS.

  33. Lenny Hartley says:

    Wull2 like Wos on Fb then you will be notified of any new posts and you can share easily from there.

  34. Arbroath1320 says:

    Here is that “ridiculous” 😉 Professor Allyson Pollock speaking in 2014.

    She hit the nail on the head in 2014 and has, obviously, been doing so at regular intervals ever since.

  35. DerekM says:

    Nice work Rev this will throw the cat among the pigeons 🙂

    It has always been the tory plan to destabilize the public sector by under funding it,one by one they have sold off anything owned by the public paid for by the public to their rich pals,it gets a lot more sinister.

    You see when you have public services your government needs to run those,it is their job comes with the wage packet,now if you remove these from government control and hand them to the pirate sector(not a typo)then suddenly all the responsibility is no longer the governments,a ready made political scapegoat and the blame is directed elsewhere.

    Or in other words the tories are lazy gits they want the trappings of power but not the responsibility.

    Only two things are left what is left of the NHS and the prison service which no doubt will be the last revenue stream of a totally morally corrupt state ,oops sorry yanks.

    The NHS is dead folks unless you do that one thing,it is such a simple thing as well,believe in Scotland and vote yes to independence.

  36. heedtracker says:

    Alex Salmond Discusses The Threat To Scotland Of Privitisation Of The NHS (13/08/2014)

    Jacky tells Scotland’s FM he’s Project Fearing, that NHS is NOT being privatised, Salmond argues for health care constitutional protection.

  37. Bob MACK says:


    You can have all sorts of private practitioners who do NHS work.

    The big problem is that the numbers are a limited pool. If I am a surgeon performing for a private company who pay big money then I have to decide if working for an NHS salary is financially the best way to go when I am making many times that amount in private practise.

    Similarly if I am a dentist I can do private work or have NHS patients on my books.

    The inevitable consequence is that the NHS suffers due to the most skilled staff leaving. Now Jeremy Hunt is putting junior NHS staff under pressure to sign an unsafe contract in England, in effect forcing them to leave in some cases.

    Nursing bursaries have been abolished.

    These measures reduce availability of those skilled staff we need

    It is creating a two tier system of healthcare

  38. Sinky says:

    It is shocking that the Edinburgh schools built only ten years ago are falling apart.. Like the shortage of beds at the Royal Infirmary, it is another example of the short term cost cutting thinking behind the PFI /PPP projects so beloved by the last Labour government. Labour’s schools PFI contract allowed contractors to self certify the building works.

    Annual interest and debt repayments for PFI /PPP contracts is costing Scottish local authorities over one billion pounds a year and NHS Lothian is paying £1.5bn for Edinburgh Royal Infirmary which cost £228 million to build but costs a fortune in maintenance costs..

    These extortionate financing commitments leave councils and health boards with less money available to spend on the other day-to-day costs of running vital services.

  39. Iain Ross says:

    “I was sair laughing when the Prof was on, BBC obviously booked the wrong person”

    Aye so was aye. Hayley Millar spluttering away not knowing what to say, class. I’m only surprised that the line did not cut out!

    What she said was an important point that needs to be hammered home. I know countless people that do not seem to know that the NHS is devolved and do not have a scoobie about how the funding model works.

    I have said to people why should we pay extra ‘better together’ taxes to cover this shortfall and they just do not know what you are talking about!

  40. heedtracker says:

    So Jacky Bird and Pacific Quay gang sneer at our FM, NHS is not being privatised, the fuckwit that the tories are selling it too is in the news again,


    2 HOURS AGO by: Charles Clover in Beijing
    Donald Trump has sent a note to wish Xi Jinping, his Chinese counterpart, a prosperous lunar new year 11 days after the festival began.

  41. Len Ore says:

    During indy ref 1 I had one better together visit in total. The visitor claimed to be a doctor, not sure where from but I suspect it was down south somewhere.
    Anyway she told me I had to vote no as it was the only way to save the snhs. I tried to contradict her as my good friend just happens to be a nurse and had not long come back from an eye opening experience of the nhs in England.
    The ‘lovely doctor’ told me I was voting with my heart not my head and was very uneducated!
    My chin still hurts from where it hit the doorstep and I still have a sore tongue from biting it. I won’t be so polite if she shows her face again.

  42. heedtracker says:

    Something our BBC Vote NO Again Scotland creepshow, will be applauding wildly.

  43. Sinky says:

    Further to the report on Labour’s PFI Edinburgh schools building scandal.

    At the time of the Edinburgh schools PFI contract the Labour / Lib Dem Scottish Executive forced local authorities to use PFI/PPP despite having an underspend of £718millions in 2001 and £643 million in 2002 which they bizarrely returned to HM Treasury in London rather than build schools and hospitals that would be owned by the public.

    During 2003-207 Labour built 205 schools but the SNP scrapped PFI/PPP yet managed to build over 300 schools during their first term of office.
    The capital value of the Edinburgh schools under PFI is £337 million but the cost to the taxpayer over the lifetime of the contract will be £1270 millions. The figures for the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary are even worse with a building worth £180 millions costing taxpayers £1740 millions with vast profits being sold on to off shore companies.
    Most experts agree that the SNP’s Not for Profit Distribution model offers far better quality buildings providing and much better value for councils, heath boards and taxpayers as the overall cost is significantly lower than PFI/PPP.
    There is a clear difference between Tory / Labour PFI/PPP and SNP’s NPD .

    Labour’s PPP schemes are costing twice as much to build and maintain than under NPD.

    Teachers will tell you that the recently built schools (since SNP came to office) are much better built, and much better designed.

    Worth reading this academic analysis of the BBC / Media coverage of the Edinburgh schools scandal

  44. Dr Jim says:

    Why don’t you just say “My name’s Pete and I’m a Tory”
    It might help you start your road to recovery y’know like they do at AA or drug councelling
    Save you writing all that tosh that fools nobody

  45. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave Hansell says: 9 February, 2017 at 1:37 pm:

    “They are cutting funding for NHS/Education.”


    “Quite. Education is another strand where the real pirate parties are wreaking havoc, removing funding and experimenting with the education of children both South and North of Hadrians.””

    So just in England then, Dave?

    What about the 30 mile bit of England that lies between Hadrian’s Wall and the Scottish/English Border? Does that bit of England not matter?

    Also, the funding of both education and NHS funding for Scotland, (that’s the bit that starts 30 Miles north of Hadrian’s wall), is funded from the Scottish Block Grant and, until now, this Block Grant was entirely the income of the Scottish Government and the Scottish books had to be balanced. (Well there were occasions when the Unionist parties in government at Holyrood actually returned some of it back to Westminster), but it is never allowed to be overspent).

    Note that the Block grant is decided by the Westminster, de facto Parliament of England, (unless you can tell us where there is a parliament of England), and is only set by the Barnett Formula on figures decided by Westminster.

    It is, however, subject to what are known as, “Barnett Consequentials”. These are decided by what Westminster, (the de facto parliament of England), chooses to call English only funding. Trouble is that they exclude anything that the de facto parliament of England decides should be termed, “National”.

    Things. Like, for example, The National Ballet, National Art Galleries, National Opera. et al, all mainly in or around London but also includes, Transport for London, The New London Sewerage System, London Cross Rail, The Chunnel, The London Dome, and many, many other things of utterly no benefit to Scotland, nor in fact most of England, Wales or N.I.

    Now Barnett Consequential can be positive or negative depending upon if the funding they are linked to is extra or cut.

    Are you beginning to get the true picture yet Dave?

  46. galamcennalath says:

    faolie says:

    Wait until the big American health corporations move in

    Indeed. Or don’t wait around, perhaps!

    My strategy for Indyref2 would be to pick five key battlegrounds and hammer them relentlessly.

    No 2 of those would be the future of NHS Scotland. It’s all said beautifully above in both article and comments.

    No 1 would be ‘Scotland’s voice being ignored and broken promises’ which could encompass Brexit but have a wider scope thus appealing to Yes-Leave voters.

    No 3 would be ‘looking after our elderly’ by freezing the retirement age and paying among the best EU pensions. It’s the right thing to do, and incidentally converts a lot of NO voters! It could encompass paying for it by growing the economy and encouraging skilled young tax paying immigrants in.

  47. Desimond says:

    Very interesting indeed and going to be a major talking point over next year or so. Strangely it will us being accused of Project Fear this time when we tell folk “Your NHS is at risk if you stay with Westminster!”

    I think this will be really interesting to the older former NO voters who will suddenly realise they are very much at risk, especially in the pocket as well as the body.

  48. Ken500 says:

    The Unionists are not telling the truth.

    55% of the population in Scotland go to University 30% before they are 30 years old. 25% mature students. One of the highest in the world. Plus pupils who go to College or apprenticeship. Tradespeople can earn a comfortable living.

    In Finland, China, Japan. It is 40%

    Finland (5million pop) has 10 Universities (Plus colleges)
    China (1.3Billion pop) has 2200 Universities. (Plus colleges)
    Japan (100million pop) has 100 Universities (Plus colleges)

    Scotland (5 million pop) has 15 Universities.

    30% Scottish of students (under 30) 25% Scottish mature students. 15% EU reciprocal students, ? Foreign students paying the full cost. ? Students from elsewhere getting a subsidised education.


    In Finland children start school at seven. Tested at nine ? Compared to Scottish seven year old tests. Not comparing like with like. Are addition needs children (20%) taken out of the Finnish statistics. Not comparing like with like. Finland has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Long winters? Depression.

    South Korean pupils – Highest test scores in the world – They stufy from 7am till 12pm at night. 6/7days a week. They get 6 hours sleep. It is child cruelty and abuse. The children are committing suicide because of the pressure and stress place upon them. South Korea are moving from their pressurised system to a less stressful one.

    A system not approved by parents, main careers or authorities in Scotland or elsewhere.

    The Unionist leave out the figures for mature students in Scotland. Life long learning. Not everyone wants go to University straight from school. Many enjoy the experience when they are older. Older students do very well. How many are from deprived backgrounds?

    Teachers should get training in additional needs. It helps the pupils and the teachers.

    Unionists are not good at figures or statistics. Maths is not their strong point. Scotland has always had a major commitment to education. The first country to have comprehensive tertiary education in the world. Scottish education and invention changed the world.

    Class sizes should be kept down. Unfortunately unionist councils do not spend the allocated money on education and statutory essential servics. The waste £Millions/Billions on grotesque carbuncles and non mandated grossly over estimated projects. Against the majority interest and the public interest.


  49. galamcennalath says:

    OT Another Courier poll delivering a result the Yoons won’t like ….

    If it came to a straight choice, which is more important to you?

    Scotland staying in the EU 64.14% (347 votes)

    Scotland staying in the UK 35.86% (194 votes)

  50. DerekM says:

    Is that a why should i pay for others to get medical treatment i am hearing?

    Why well because then we will not need medical teams from the UN looking after the poor as sir oswald chummly-bottom the third quaffs some more expensive French champagne and buys himself a new yacht,as the cash flows not to the front line but to his fat cat wallet.

    Making a profit out of illness is morally wrong,especially since we have paid collectively trillions on making it work .
    So lets forget we spent a fortune already and lets all pay some more yippee me first for the lobotomy.

  51. Dr Ew says:

    No real surprise, but good to hear it set out so clearly and unequivocally from an authoritative and (apparently) independent voice. Shows up the shallow point scoring at Holyrood for what it is, not to mention the crocodile tears and cynical agenda of our redoubtable fourth estate.

    Concerned about the NHS? Put your bloody argument in context then.

  52. Clydebuilt says:

    During Indy Ref 1…..Produced a flyer with Alyson Pollock’s message about The 2012 health act ending the NHS , due to the duty of care for the Health Minister to secure provision of health care being removed….. Plus Phillippa Whitford’s message on TTIP……

    Both these Ladies are Hero’s

    Allyson Pollock had been publicising this message since circa 2012. There is a YouTube video of her presenting at a Ted Ex. event.

    We need to get this message out

  53. Conan the Librarian says:

    Anyone seen Thrawn lately?

    Thrawn says:
    5 February, 2017 at 12:31 pm
    Alex Salmond 18th August 2014 Arbroath:

    First opportunity of independence is “To protect our publicly-owned, publicly-run NHS from Westminster privatisation and cuts.”

    Apology to Mr Torrance please

  54. Stoker says:

    galamcennalath wrote on 9 February, 2017 at 2:25 pm:

    “My strategy for Indyref2 would be to pick five key battlegrounds and hammer them relentlessly.”

    No matter what strategy used by individuals the number-1 message that must always be hammered home should be:

    Nobody is better placed to make the decisions for ones own country than the people who live and work in that country….

  55. yesindyref2 says:

    I followed the Health And Social Care Act in 2012, in my Grun CiF days, and it was an issue where there was no real difference in opinions between pro-indy and anti-indy posters, including those from Scotland. We were all dead against it, and when the epetitions petition got mentioned, we pushed it for all it was worth, every thread we posted on. The signatures shot up, and it got out to some org which might even have been 38degrees – it’s not all bad.

    Onyway, there were informed posters as you get btl, and one of the things about it was that spending was NOT expected to drop particularly in the early years, as there was a cost of reorganising. But that would pave the way for “changes” which of course the dread Tories insisted weren’t privatisations, but rationalisations.

    So when we’ve seen the last year or three, claims by Westminster that spending on the NHS (by which they mean the English NHS) have risen then yes – in terms of total budget this is probably true. But at the sharp end they probably have dropped, as the spending has been on reorganisation. So the Barnett block grant hasn’t been badly affected – so far. That’s my memory of it all.

    The problem is that when reorganisation is complete, then the oh it’s not privatisation privatisation can really get started, and then the Barnett WILL drop.

    Seems to me Pollock knows what she’s talking about.

  56. George S Gordon says:

    Goes nicely with “Naomi Eisenstadt: ‘By comparison England is so grim!’” – on social policy in

  57. geeo says:

    On BBC news around 10/15 mins ago….

    Theresa May has just been asked a direct question at a press conference with the Italian PM…

    (Reporter from Reuters).

    “Prime Minister, You previously said the question of Scottish Independence was settled in 2014 by the referendum, my question to you is…Would you ALLOW a second independence referendum, and do you expect such a request to land on your desk after you trigger Article 50”.


    “First of all, the question is not COULD there be a 2nd referendum, it’s SHOULD there be a 2nd referendum….yada yads yada….once in a generation….we should work together with the european union….get a trade deal……more yada yada….whole of united kingdom….yada yada…..listening to Scottish proposition…..yada yada…..”
    (changes subject quickly).
    Utter refusal to answer a simple question…
    “Will you ALLOW a 2nd referendum” ?

    Now, if Theresa May thought for a nano second that she HAD THE AUTHORITY to DENY a 2nd referendum, as she wants people to believe she does, she would have said so, and in no uncertain terms.

    She ABSOLUTELY KNOWS that she has ZERO legal power to REFUSE a 2nd independence referendum.

    Every time a Tory is asked this question, “Will your government ALLOW a 2nd indyref, they CHANGE it to,
    “the question is SHOULD we have one” ?
    (Note it is not SHOULD we ALLOW one….).

    Just once i would love an interviewer to stand their ground and state this….

    “Actually, the question WAS….”would you ALLOW one” , would you care to ACTUALLY answer the question put to you for a change” ?

    Not a hope.

  58. Big slip up by the BBC ‘Newsroom Live’ at 11 am today, the top story was about the figures for the NHS in England. The NHS in England has record its worst target figure since they were introduces, (The target set by the government of 95% seen within four hours) they achieved 82.6% within four hours, pictures of patients waiting on trolleys in corridors. When the reporter dared to say that the NHS in Scotland was doing far better, the plug was quickly pulled “In Scotland the f***** – sorry we seemed to have lost that report”.

  59. DerekM says:

    @ Conan

    lol got to say i was playing a hunch plus it fitted in nicely with giving him a roasting he deserved.

    Sorry if i offended anybody with that little stunt but sometimes these things are just necessary 😉

  60. yesindyref2 says:

    THAT, by the way, during the progress of the infamous Health Act through the UK Parliament, both houses, where the disgusting Shirley Willams, huge influence in the House of Lords and with the LibDems, wrote a whitewash piece in the Guardian, justifying the disgusting LibDems led by the tractor Nick Clegg, voting with the horrible Tories in the HoC to pass the selling off of the NHS in England to the Yanks. Something even Maggie Thatcher stayed away from.

    It’s also where I first heard of Atlantic Bridge, and decided I wanted to know nothing more about it, but I didn’t want it to exist in any way, shape or form, in Independent Scotland.

  61. The unionists will do what they usually do and deny the NHS in England is being privatised and their compliant media friends will peddled the same line.

    It will be spun along the line that more investment is being put into the NHS.

  62. call me dave says:

    So glad to hear and see Allyson Pollock’s interview on GMS get more prominence today. Heard it live and made a comment on the day in a previous thread.

    Auntie BBC darn Sarf all over the ENHS waiting times and ‘bed blocking’ today and hinting the figures are much worse than officially stated.

    However UK Westminster cuts to Barnett cannot be mitigated forever and eventually must affect how we deal with our services in Scotland.

    Time to get out of this Union as soon as we can.

    Garry on shortbread radio this morning thanking the listeners for the increased numbers of folk tuning in.

    A total of 950,000 per week for ‘Good Moaning Scotland’ an increase of 50,000 since the last count. 1hr 47mins 29secs in.

    Funny old world init! 🙁

  63. Sinky says:

    BBC National News covering report on Edinburgh School PFI building programme but no mention of the political party that drew up the contracts… LABOUR. Imagine if this had happened under the SNP’s watch would be media be so circumspect?

  64. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…SHOULD there be a 2nd referendum…”

    Aye Theresa May – there effing well SHOULD be a 2nd referendum because, first of all, the promise upon which YOUR side of the IndyRef1 debate secured its ‘victory’ was predicated upon a blatant LIE known as THE VOW. Devo-Max / Federalism was NEVER honored and you damn well know it wasn’t.

    Secondly, the promise that only by remaining witht he UK could Scotland hope to remian in the EU was ALSO A LIE.


    “SHOULD Scotland be an independent country?”

    HELL YES!!

  65. Frazerio says:

    The only way to save the NHS in Scotland is to vote Yes in Indyref2.

    Vote No means no more NHS in Scotland. PAY for your health care.
    Vote Yes means yes to the NHS in Scotland, FREE health care.

    There is no UK wide NHS. There were until very recently two separate National Health Services in the UK, one for England and Wales, one for Scotland. Westminster is privatising the English & Welsh NHS. Meaning no more central government funding.

    The Holyrood budget relies on the Barnett formula, which allocates a proportional equivalent budget to Scotland of spending in England & Wales. As Westminster privatises the English & Welsh NHS, the Scottish budget shrinks. Holyrood is forced to cut services due to english tory ideology. Holyrood has no meaningful powers to counter this in the UK system (eg through control of tax policy).

    Scotland doesnt vote for tory cuts. But due to the democratic deficit in the UK, undemocratic tory policies are forced onto the people of Scotland. There is one tory MP in Scotland out of 59, yet the tory ideology of privatising healthcare will be imposed in Scotland if we keep letting english tories destroy the Scottish NHS.

    The only way to keep the NHS in Scotland is to vote Yes in Indyref2.

    Hopefully that is clear enough for switherers?

    We need out of this asap.

    Spoke to a Slovakian taxi driver recently. Been here about two decades. Said he didnt vote in Indyref1 because he felt it was for ‘Scots’ to decide. Post Brexit, said he and his like wont make that mistake again and are Yes next time round.

    I am also intrigued by another demographic group I’ll call ‘academics’. Many seemed split at Indyref1 while vast majority seem united for Remain. I suspect in Indyref2, most will vote Yes.

    Can anyone put numbers on these groups ; ‘former Non-UK EU nationals now living in Scotland’ and ‘academics’. In short, what does 45% + these 2 groups = ?

  66. annie says:

    Half listening to piece on BBC News this morning when I heard “the NHS in Scotland is doing rather better” it was then immediately stopped and the presenter apologised for the loss of the report, he continued to discuss NHS in England with guy in the studio. Obviously not suiting their agenda to admit SNHS better.

  67. yesindyref2 says:

    Wow, that’s reawoken all the emotions of 2012, perhaps I cared as much about that iniquitous Health Act as the up and coming Indy Ref itself. But the NHS was one thing the Labour Party in Scotland – and unions – had a point about, and that’s solidarity. Same they had as a reason, solidarity with workers in Liverpool, Newcastle, Manchester – solidarity. I didn’t agree, we can do more from outside, there’s so few of us in comparison to the poor English with their being fooled by the Tories – and voting for them.

    But that reason has GONE. The English NHS is ready for sell-off, talk about health insurance already, charges just to see a doctor let alone get treatment. And coming out of the EU, that’s workers rights fucked by the Tories. Now we have May selling off the 51st state to the Yanks, lock, stock and shitty barrel.

    So when BT2 is talking about “Pooling and sharing” there’s nothing left to pool and share, except their wanting to suck on the tit of what they think is the “fiscal transfer from the rest of the UK”. In short, these ignoble creatures want to sponge off the English, and in terms of keeping the English NHS public, and workers rights, there’s fuck all we can do in Scotland to help the English. The Tories have taken over, and are stripping the assets. Same as they did to Scotland in Thatcher’s day.

    Get me the fuck out of this.

  68. mogabee says:


    There is no mechanism in Scotland to pay for health services unless you want to go private. That’s why Hunt and his muckers are untouchable whereas Scotland’s Health Minister is berated constantly.

    Tories are peeved they cannot get a foothold into SNHS.

    If you want to pay, your best bet is travelling down to England…

  69. Tackety Beets says:

    I heard the interview LIVE on Radio Shortbread and looked up and listened intently until I heard

    “The problem is at the moment that the English government is not committed to a national health service – it has abolished the national health service.”

    Those words “English Government” !

    The what what what ?

    I know what was meant, however what she explains we all knew but had never been indulged by any MSM.

    The fact that there is no commitment by UK Gvt should be ringing out across all MSM

    Like others here , I’ll C&P to FB etc , Thanks Rev.

  70. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sinky @ 14:05 @ 14:20,

    I’m glad you mentioned that, because if you hadn’t I would have.

    I remember very well Allyson Pollock on TV at the time, warning that Labour’s obsession with PFI was creating a millstone round the neck of the NHS not only for us but also for our children and maybe even their children. (As indeed it was also for other public infrastructure such as schools.)

    And being dissed for it mercilessly by a Scottish Labour ministerial thug.

    All due to El Gordo’s political cowardice and obsession with keeping public spending “off the books” by the wheeze of expensively mortgaging our future to private-finance fat cats.

    Prof. Pollock was a hero to me then, and she’s a hero to me still. Thank god we still have people like her around to tell it like it really is.

  71. nodrog says:

    This is the kind of information that should be shouted from the rooftops. It should in particular be directed towards the over 65’s whom I believe voted NO 3 to 1. They should know what they have done and it will affect them mostly. You can tell from my use of rooftops that I am over 65 but I voted YES and REMAIN.
    Now I say to you young’uns get this out over social media and make sure no one misses it. This could turn the tide which is why it will never be reported on the Establishment Media. However, perhaps The National would print it. Whatever, let us get it out there.

  72. Stoker says:

    To George S Gordon on 9 February, 2017 at 2:51 pm

    Even though my money is on you already being aware of this i will reproduce it here for you and others here:

    “Can i ask those of you who continue to help feed and support the BUM sites, in their campaign against us, to try and refrain from posting direct links to them.

    There is no justifiable excuse for it and you’re also giving a very public slap on the face to all of us who go out of our way to archive material and bring new readers to this site.

    Why don’t yous go and try posting direct links to this WOS article on The Times and The Guardian sites and see how far yous get?”

    Continuing to post direct links to BUM rags makes you a part of the problem.

  73. galamcennalath says:

    call me dave says:

    A total of 950,000 per week for ‘Good Moaning Scotland’

    That seems an odd measure. Evasive, even. Ratings are usually quoted per show.

    Do the same people listen every morning? Or is that the number of people who heard it at some point in a given week?

    The average figure per show could be anything from ~200k to 950k.

  74. Proud Cybernat says:


    “What the F@#K was that???”

    That’ll be Hayley Millar’s jotters coming through the letterbox!

  75. heedtracker says:

    Apology to Mr Torrance please

    Sorry Mr Torrance. Please keep us reigned over by our imperial master baiters for ever and ever, amen.

  76. Scott says:

    Well all I can say that is the last that Prof Allyson Pollock will be asked on BBC Scotland.
    Its just a pity that the yoons will not listen.

  77. Robert Peffers says:

    @Pete says: 9 February, 2017 at 1:51 pm:

    ” … As far as I’m aware no one is asked to pay for services given.”

    Hilarious, Pete, simply hilarious!

    If no one pays for their treatment does that mean you imagine the private providers are working for free from the goodness of their great big hearts?

    People farmed out to private heath care providers obviously do pay. As does everyone else in Scotland that pays their NHS Stamp. For the very good reason that the correct description of the NHS scheme is, free at point of delivery. It is not now, and never has been, as you so obviously believe, free of charge.

    In fact those doing the operations in the public and in the private sectors are, more often than not, the very same people. It just costs the taxpayer more if they get the treatment done by the private sector.

    The most obvious reason Scottish NHS operations have to be farmed out in Scotland is mainly due to the rip-off PPP/PPI schemes so beloved of the, mainly, Labour Unionist party led local councils. These councils control the Local Hospital boards and have put their taxpayers into hock for decades yet to come with rip-off PPP/PPI finance schemes.

    The Edinburgh Royal Infirmary is just such a case in point, and I quote :-

    “An Evening News investigation has discovered that while other hospitals built under private finance initiatives (PFI) eventually transfer to NHS ownership, the Little France site will not. It means that by 2028, NHS Lothian will have effectively paid for the hospital seven times over but it will remain the property of private operator Consort.”

    As you are aware GP’s, dentists , pharmacies are all private contractors.

    Aye! Pete and just who are their contracts negotiated by?

    It is for the reason that we should get, “Generic”, prescription medications rather than branded medications. This is down to negotiating best prices for bulk purchases by the Nation rather than small purchases by private enterprise.

    “As long as patients are not asked to pay, I find it hard to understand what is meant by privatisation.”

    I think we gathered that, Pete. However, your failure to understand the concept that the patient gets something for nothing are not quite the same concept.

    The patients are not responsible for your inadequacy to comprehend simple things. I would also believe you also fail to comprehend the very truthful, and actually coasted, Free Prescriptions in Scotland scheme.

    It is a well proven, (and costed), fact that to operate a means-tested system, and to police it for abuses, costs more than it does to operated a free-at point of supply.scheme.

    The truth is thus that the free at point of supply schemes saves the Scottish government and thus the Scottish people quite a considerable sum. Not to even include the extra hidden costs of the poorest in society not taking advantage of cheaper cures and thus making their health conditions more expensive to treat in the longer term.

  78. Nana says:


    Link sent to me a few moments ago.

    Meeting from this morning re Constitutional relationship between EU & UK. Kirsty Hughes [Writer and commentator on international and European politics] takes part in discussion re devolved nations particularly Scotland.

    Starts approx. 9.36

  79. Vestas says:

    Beware of thinking that one area of the English “NHS” is the same as another.

    For example if you live where I live (Leicestershire) then you’re basically fucked – doesn’t matter what you have (other than the heart stuff at Glenfield which is now closing) you ARE going to have worse health outcomes compared to people anywhere else in the midlands.

    Reason – back when it was PCTs (or whatever now) in 2006 the hospitals got together & said “this PFI stuff is a rip-off, we don’t want that”. Good decision, bad timing because of bankers etc in 2008.

    Result – daughter got a long-term problem sorted out while she was a student in Derby. Leics GPs/hospital/physio bounced her back & forth for ages (GP at Glenfield even asking “have you looked it up on the internet”!).

    Derby got her a MRI in 3 weeks and a keyhole op in a private hospital three months later. The private hospital (AIUI) charged less for the op/care than the local (Leicester) NHS did for a physio session which consisted largely of sitting on a ball with lots of other people.

    tl;dr – move 35 miles & skip 3 years of (really) crap healthcare in some areas here & I have nearly 30 years experience of it….

  80. yesindyref2 says:

    The Health Act bill could have been killed off. The LibDems were against it, and held the balance of power, indeed Clegg was the deputy PM. But Shirley Williams had enormous influence in the LibDems and having opposed it, was taken in by the words and very minor changes from the Tories. I seem to remember the LibDems were allowed to put a minor amemdment in the Lords, and that was it, the NHS on its way to being sold off. Note this from Polly’s article:

    That allows its private business to rise to anything up to 49%, unlikely but permitted.

    Not so unlikely now. And that’s the English budget reducing for the NHS, and Barnett reduced.

  81. Cadogan Enright says:

    When you see the hundreds of BBC Scotland NHS BAAAD articles on the Scottish NHS it is maddening

    Especially as they are debunked daily and weekly when compared to the English so-called NHS

  82. K1 says:

    A big part of our problem as was discussed on Wings btl on this topic in the middle of January is that our NHS is constantly ‘conflated’ with England’s NHS, the only solution is for our NHS to be renamed. If we all recall, suggestions were made to lobby SNP MSP’s and our MP’s to lobby Shona to this affect.

    I’ve just received a reply from Patrick Grady this morning regarding my request for him to look into this issue as I’m certain that should our health service actually legally be renamed, the pundits and news outlets would have to ensure that this distinction was adhered to, else a continual bombardment from Scottish citizens would jam their phone lines and enquiry/complaint desks regarding their constant misreporting.

    As they would legally have to refer to the Scottish Health Service (or whatever ‘name’ we opted for) while discussing or reporting on health issues, the renaming would actually serve a real and genuine purpose in informing those who are actually addicted to the msm. I urge people to write to their MSP’s and MP’s and those who are in the SNP to lobby relentlessly for this.

    Preferably before the referendum Imo, as we cannot continuously be fighting ‘skirmishes’ on the sidelines as a distraction (which is why they ‘do’ conflate) from the main battle grounds, where all our efforts will be required.

    ‘Dear K1

    Many thanks for getting in touch about the NHS in Scotland. I do apologise for the late response and for not getting back to you sooner.

    I appreciate you sharing your views with me on this matter. The SNP believe that the NHS is our most important public resource and we will do everything we can to ensure that it is properly funded and protected as a public service. As you may be aware, over the last five years the SNP Government has protected Scotland’s health budget and has increased spending. By the end of the next parliament they will increase the NHS revenue budget by £500 million more than inflation by the end of this parliament, which means that it will increase by almost £2 billion in total.

    With regards to the points and comments you make in your letter, I have now written to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport, Shona Robison MSP, passing on your concerns and suggestions with regards to the renaming of the health service in Scotland. I will be back in touch as soon as I receive a response.

    I trust this is helpful. If I can be of further assistance with this or any other matter please do not hesitate to get in touch.

    All the best


    As you can see, it works…our MP’s and MSP’s will respond, we’re the grass roots independence movement and it’s up to us to shape our government and our politics accordingly.

    Get writing on this matter, immediately! Please 🙂

  83. Sinky says:

    NHS in Scotland is not marginally or “rather better” it is significantly better. That is the message we need to get out in MSM.

  84. Kezia dugdale as glove puppet with Ruth’s chubby hand stuck up her jacksie.
    FMQ today: Edjukashun.
    Scotland lagging ‘way behind Singapore. rages Ms Harrison.
    10 years in power, what are the SNP going to do about it? No excuses, it’s all their fault.
    Attainment gap an absolute disgrace.
    Dugdale: 4000 less teachers, an absolute disgrace; it’s all the SNP ‘s fault. What are they going to do about it?
    This must be what she means by ‘Stronger Together.’
    From the EIS:
    The Educational Institute of Scotland (EIS), the country’s largest union for teachers, welcomed the preservation of teacher numbers.
    EIS General Secretary Larry Flanagan said: “Maintaining the number of teachers employed is key to ensuring a consistent, high quality, educational experience for pupils across Scotland. The commitments on teacher numbers between the Scottish government and local authorities were agreed following strong campaigning by the EIS on this issue.
    “It is welcome that today’s figures confirm that those commitments have, largely, been met and that teacher numbers across Scotland have been maintained over the past year.”
    “However, the statistics also highlight that teacher numbers have fallen in a number of local authority areas, in breach of those individual agreements. This confirms the need for a nationally agreed minimum staffing standard to ensure consistent levels of provision across Scotland.”
    What’s that? Teacher numbers have fallen in a number of local authority areas? In breach of individual agreements?
    You’ll be telling me next that the 34p in the pound of my Council Tax paid to Frank the Pieman is actually administered by a Head of Education on a Footballer’s six figure salary, and GCC Labour Administration are responsible, accountable, for the success of Education in the city, but failing miserably, and quite deliberately defying the Government in their abysmal handling of education for the children of Glasgow?
    Naw, it’s aw that Nicola Sturgeon’s fault.
    Next you’ll be telling me that 200,000 kids living in abject poverty because of Ruth Davidson’s cuts to public spending should ignore the hunger pangs and study their way out of poverty.
    Cole Hamilton was prattling on about patients bed blocking for years, and again it isn’t the Health Board and the LA Social Services Departments’ fault, it’s that nasty wee Nicola Sturgeon , the devil incarnate again.
    By Christ, roll on the LA elections in May. The last bastion of inept corrupt Unionism hell bent on destroying civic society and selling it off to the highest bidder.
    Toodle oo the Noo Taylor and his Yoon hacks seemed the think that Swinney and NS were embarrassed by the Better Together pincer movement of the Whining Winnies.
    I am generous here. I’m sure he knows the score.
    He’s just a Yoon stooge, like his never ending supply of Yoon contributers from the Telegraph, Times, Scotsman etc.
    Frank the Pieman, with the St Trinian’s morals, are you ready? We’re coming after you next.
    City Car Parking. How’s that working out for you?

  85. Thepnr says:

    Every single person in Scotland and the UK pays for our NHS already through taxation. Working or not YOU pay, doesn’t matter is it’s income tax or NI. Everyone pays VAT and excise duties on the goods that we buy.

    The difference is that the richer you are the less you pay as a proportion of your income. How could the Tories afford to reduce tax for the highest rate of taxpayer? By slashing social security and privatising the NHS.

    Simple, they are robbing Paul to pay Peter. They don’t give a damn if the NHS is underfunded as their natural supporters in the main can probably afford private Health Insurance as their taxes will be less. I guarantee you will see another rise in VAT so as they can attempt to reduce the deficit that they themselves created when bailing out their banker friends.

    The bastards are robbing the poor blind, no matter the consequences for their health in order to line their pockets with even more of the wealth created by all of us in this so called UK. Fascist bastards.

  86. Nana says:

    Re my link at 3.53

    I have just listened to Diane James ukip comments on the committee hearing this morning. Do not have anything to hand when listening or there will be breakages.

  87. Conan the Librarian says:

    Perhaps it should be renamed the Scottish National Health Service, so we can watch all the zoomers go private?

  88. K1 says:

    If this is helpful as a ‘template’ for others to write to their MP’s and Shona and MSP’s please feel free to plagiarise or cut and paste bits to make your point regarding rebranding of our NHS in Scotland.

    K1 says:
    16 January, 2017 at 10:50 am

    ‘If you find your local MP’s contact details on their website, there is a wee form, where you put your details, as they need to confirm you are a constituent. Write to them and ask them to lobby Shona Robertson on rebranding the Scottish NHS. We have to bombard them from MP’s to MSP’s, they will forward any messages to the health minister too. Here’s mine…make it personal and brief, it takes 2 minutes and at least then they have a public pushing them to consider rebranding:

    ‘Dear Patrick

    In light of the media focus on England’s NHS crisis and the constant ‘conflation’ of Scotland’s NHS with this genuine crisis taking place down south. I would like to lobby Patrick to take this up with his colleagues and especially with Shona Robertson to have our Scottish Health service renamed. This is causing untold harm to Scotland’s health service which has an excellent reputation in terms of all targets being well above other NHS services within the UK and allows our NHS to be used as a political football by the opposition parties in the Scottish parliament.

    I cannot emphasise enough how this has to be a priority for the SNP to consider. The public is being bombarded by the media and the inference that there is the same crisis occurring within Scotland’s health service is tantamount to ‘fake news’. This needs to be addressed and the one way to ensure that this is corrected is to seriously consider rebranding our health service. Thereby ending this relentless ‘monstering’ of our health service.

    I’d appreciate if Patrick could look into this and would suggest that a public consultation is held to test the viability of rebranding as I’m also certain that there is a strong backing for this within Scotland that does not have a voice in the public realm to address the constant ‘misinformation’ that is being fed to the Scottish public by our media.

    Yours sincerely’

    Put your post code in and every MP, MSP, minister et al will be shown for your area, it’s easy just copy and paste to all the recipients you wish to lobby:

  89. DerekM says:

    How about The Scottish Medical Association,SMA for short.

  90. Sinky says:

    Scotland’s too sma as it is

  91. Les Wilson says:

    Well there is a decent thing to make a case over of in Indy2

  92. icyspark says:

    I saw that BBC news report this morning on BBC news 24 at 11:04 that got cut off middle of the way through saying SNHS is coping better.

    There is no way the BBC or the MSM will allow the news to get out to the people that the SNHS is doing better than the rest.

    Just think, if it was heard far and wide, the people might then ask, “well if we can run the NHS better, then maybe we could do the same with the economy given the chance”

  93. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    O/T but not entirely irrelevant either, I think you will agree.

    FLASH: France 24 website announces AFP reports that Wikipedia editors ban “unreliable” Daily Mail as source!

    Someone else seems to have noticed! =laugh=

  94. DerekM says:

    Personally i think we should drop the national bit just to watch the yoons heads explode trying to write an SNP bad angle on it.

  95. Arbroath1320 says:

    Apologies for O/T here.

    Brian Quail has been found not guilty at Dumbarton Sheriff Court.

    Look out for many more “Lie downs” in the future folks! 😀

  96. yesindyref2 says:

    @Cadogan Enright
    An article on NHS Tayside on the Herald. It;s fair enough, but I posted about PFI with a smidgeon of googling. Here’s the response from the usual pathetic unionist:

    See Gordon Lamb House is keeping you busy on cut and paste duty today, Mr Piper. We all know ‘it’s Labour, Tory, Lib-Dem, Westminster, anyone but the SNP wot done it.’

    I destroyed him. This Ref, I take no prisoners.

  97. Andy Anderson says:

    The 2012 act in England scuppering the English NHS was news to me. Wow!! A caring government indeed. Do the English public know? Obvious the effects on Barnett.

  98. mike cassidy says:

    This is the text of her 2014 SNHS warning.

    Love that “secretary of state abdication bill” quote.

  99. Thepnr says:


    Agreed, drop the word National altogether because what does National mean, Scotland or UK?

    Scottish Health Service. Short, sweet and simple

  100. Thepnr says:

    @Andy Anderson

    I posted this here on Wings on Sunday to one of our irregular trolls before the above interview on Monday. Want to know the truth? I knew nothing of the 2012 Act either but was forced to educate myself and go and look for some.

    We all need do that when what you are being told just doesn’t look right. Do your own reaserch, it’s the best way to learn.


    2: Westminster can theoretically privatise England and Wales (despite the fact none of the major parties have even come close to espousing that policy)

    Are you unaware then of the 2012 Health and Social Care Act introduced by the Tory/Lib coalition so that NHS services could be contracted out to ‘any qualified provider’, including private companies.

    In 2015 private companies won 40% of all contracts to provide clinical services on behalf of the NHS. The value of these contracts was over £3.5Bn.

    From the Guardian:

    “Far more NHS contracts going to private firms than ministers admit, figures show”

    How about what one GP in England thinks from the Independent.

    “Nobody’s told you, but the government’s Health and Social Care Act has legally abolished the NHS. On the surface, it appears that nothing has changed. You can still see your GP or go to hospital and receive care free at the point of delivery. But behind the scenes, something else is going on: the NHS is being privatised.”

    None of this really matters, what does matter is the Alex Salmond in saying that privatisation of the NHS in England would have a knock on effect in Scotland was categorically TRUE.

    Whereas Torrence LIED when he stated in his tweet “What about an update on the FM’s claim that the Scottish NHS would be privatised if Scots voted No in 2014?”

    No FM past or present made such a claim, Torrence’s link to try to back up his statement shows the TOTAL opposite of what he claimed to be the real FACT. Here is exactly what then FM Alex Salmond said.

    “Commenting ahead of the speech, the First Minister was careful not to say that privatisation would follow in Scotland, where Holyrood is responsible for all decisions about the NHS.

    But he said: “Under the Westminster system, cuts to spending in England automatically trigger cuts in Scotland.

    “So if private money replaces public funding in England, our budget will also be slashed, no matter what we want or need.

    “With independence we will have control of both our tax system and the budget for public services, so we can protect the NHS and other vital public services from Westminster privatisation.”

    You Thrawn are an apologist for liars due to your blind hatred of the truth if it does not fit your anti SNP agenda.

  101. stewartb says:

    For anyone interested but unsure about what is happening in England over the scope and scale of private sector involvement in delivering NHS services, take a look at this web site –

    Worthwhile thinking about the %age profit likely to be taken out by private sector companies from the large NHS contracts being opened up to market tendering.

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    @Andy Anderson
    There’s a whole load in the Guardian about it – the Grun had a continual campaign against it, and allowed the constant reposting of the petition links and current count of signatures, even in way off-topic threads 🙂

    Its Scottish news and views wasn’t so good. Shrug. After a time, the Sunday (Observer) became better, with Kevin McKenna making his way over to our side. There were occasional good articles for us as well.

  103. Thepnr says:


    I know exactly where you’re coming from but when you think about it there can be no profit in the NHS other than an artificially introduced one.

    The NHS is a cost, a cost for care that society as whole is willing to provide and to share. If there is a profit to be made for private investors then that is simply an additional cost that we must bear that goes outside of the NHS.

    We all pay more then so private profits can be made?

    The same goes for social security, we pay ATOS for all these assessments at astronomical costs then we are directly taking money away from those that need it.

    Madness and bad, very very bad. ToryBAD.

  104. DerekM says:

    @ Thepnr

    SHS i like that it is a lot better than mine SMA lol

    Oh and great idea K1 🙂

    I would love to see them write about how the nationalists dropped national from the national health service lol

  105. galamcennalath says:

    The future for NHS England? Already the media (see the Rev’s Twitter) is openly discussing “Is privatisation the answer?” The South British are being softened up to the idea that the government can no longer pay for their NHS. As the economy contracts with Brexit and tax revenues fall, it will be privatised.

    The future for NHS Scotland? Well, there are two futures. Firstly there is the Brexit future where funding will drop because of Barnett consequentials and we will be told that if want a fully funded NHS then the SG will have to pay for it by raising income tax. Alternatively there is Indy where we find our own solutions.

  106. mr thms says:

    I’ve been listening to BBC News 24 and a news item about the report on the collapse of a wall at Oxgangs Primary School in Edinburgh. The collapse occurred during Storm Gertrude in January last year. While the constructors, the council and PFI was criticised there was no mention of when the school was constructed and which party was in power in government or running the council. For me it is relevant since I think it is important that the parties responsible learn from their decisions..

  107. Robert Graham says:

    Seems the Labour /Tory Council in Stirling are adopting a scorched earth policy before they get booted out in May – all council leisure facilities are to be privatised under a proposed 25 year deal , you would have thought after the PDI fiasco all councils would steer well away from long term deals that bind the incoming administration , or are they leaving a wee ticking time bomb , let’s hope the current government stop this in its tracks and strangle it a birth , and while they are at it get a grip on Aberdeen council , and any other wayward loony councils .

  108. Dr Jim says:

    Typhoon jets were scrambled from bases in the UK to see off the threat of Russian Blackjack bombers which were flying round the north of Scotland says the BBC
    Then they say the Russian bombers were flying in international airspace and carried on their journey

    See how that works, Scotland cannae defend itself without the broad shoulders of the UK from threats that were never actually made or existed (but mibbees might’ve could’ve but if it wiznae fur us coz yous’ll no huv planes)

    Even if there was a threat though where would the air force be shooting down enemy planes before they got to Faslane even presuming they could shoot them down and how come our super duper deterrent didnae deter them and just made Scotland a target just like Michael Fallon said North Korea was for having WMDs in oor garden pond jist doon fae ma hoose where I used to go fishing but cannae noo coz the fish are aw deid dying and about to be deid

  109. Cuilean says:

    Annoyingly, it’s the ‘No’ voting over-65 age group which benefit the most from the SNP’s redoubtable defence of our Scottish NHS!

    Christ, if the over 65’s only realised who is really defending them!

    Sometimes I think to hell with the old bastards. Nicola, yake a 10 year sabbatical. Leave the over 65’s to the Tories’ tender mercy – dying on a trolley in a hospital corridor.

    To think in the upcoming council elections, SLAB are to unite with the Tories against the SNP! A Labour vote is a tory vote!

  110. K1 says:

    There is a movement underway along cross party lines to reinstate the NHS in England since March 2015. Allyson Pollock very much backs this.


    Caroline Lucas introduced this private member’s bill to reinstate the NHS in England in March 2015.

    ‘The bill would reinstate the secretary of state’s responsibility for the health of UK citizens, something the Health and Social Care Act removed.’

    From Jan 2016:

    Further reading on what the 2012 Health and Social Care Act really meant and means for England/Wales NHS:

    ‘It is the final stage in the systematic dismantling of the NHS – a process that began about 25 years ago – carried out by stealth.’

  111. Ghillie says:

    Might it be possible to send this transcript, in hard copy, to every one of our MSPs ?

    …so there is no further excuse for the continuing warping of the figures by the usual suspects.

    I do believe that ALL our MSPs understand perfectly how the Barnett Formula works and why our SHS budget (and the rest) is at risk, but a number CHOOSE to be dishonest.

    With this statement on their desks as a helpful crib sheet for the dunces and dishonest in the chamber, let’s hear this brought up at FMQs!

    Will thay squirm? Would be fun to watch at least = )

  112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 16:01,

    It was the most recent great piece of journalism that Polly Toynbee did (among many in the past) – she tore into Shirley Williams’ self-deluded fantasies like a hurricane.

    But it was Clegg who was really behind it all; the saintly Dame was rather put-upon in having to cover for him. Whether she really knew in her heart-of-hearts it was a bust or not, I can’t say.

    It’s just very sad that decent journos like Polly couldn’t make the leap of understanding to see what we were about up here in wanting to be free of all that crap.

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    From that article: “The NHS annual budget is more than £100bn

    If that 49% “privatisation” is correct from earlier, that means the NHS budget in those days terms could in 2012 terms over time be cut to £51 billion, cutting £49 billion from the English NHS bill, hence cutting just short of £5 billion from our annual block grant (we’re 1/10th of England).

  114. Macart says:


    Yeah, clocked that report on the news.

    So the deal is, your pooling and sharing betterthigither govt. can afford Trident. It can afford cutting taxes for those and such as those. It can afford extended military actions overseas. It can afford refurbing Westminster and the odd palace, but it can’t/won’t be able to spare your tax pounds for the health care of the electorate.

    Still, you get the government you vote for and you get the Brexit you vote for, so that’s okay then. I mean, the electorate were aware that the UK central government intended to extend pension age across the UK and sell off the health service a chunk at a time, right?

  115. Meg merrilees says:

    Cons MP for Rochford has just tabled a motion of ‘No Confidence ‘ in the Speaker because his comments on Trump were intolerable!!!

    One party state definitely – cross them at your peril. Maybe someone will vote with the SNP this time.

    Talking about NHS on the News R4 BBC – in crisis etc in England; things are a bit better in Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland but they are still missing their 95% targets.

    So there you have it! We’re all f**ked.

  116. Orri says:

    Wonder if we’ll get UKIP on the case insisting that whilst the total saving might fall short of the £350 claimed by the official Leave campaign stopping all payments to the EU now is the answer. Hard, fast, dirty Brexit in order to rescue the NHS so they can then break it up and return it to even more independent local control as was in their manifesto.

  117. Clydebuilt says:

    K1 r e ….re-naming Scotland’s NHS is a good idea …… But would be costly……. Would need to change logo on Scrubs, paperwork, billboards etc……. Could be done ….but the Yoons media and politicians would bring up the cost whilst there’s a shortage of money ……..

  118. Bill Hume says:

    Cuilean says: At 5.55…….fuck off, I’m 65 and I’m willing to bet I’ve suppoerted Scottish independence longer than you’ve been alive.
    Have you ever been to a march for independence….most of the people there are not in their ‘first flush of youth’ Stop knocking the older generation.

  119. galamcennalath says:

    Meg merrilees says:

    So there you have it! We’re all f**ked.

    … and those altruistic and benevolent US healthcare companies are standing by to sort it all out for us. Lovely people 🙁

  120. Rock says:

    “POLLOCK: Well, that’s true, but there’s only a limit as to what it can do with the pot of money that it gets from the Treasury, and that is being squeezed, because basically, the Scottish Government gets what’s called a block grant from the Treasury under the fiscal settlement, but it has very little power to alter the size of that grant. It can only move the budget around, as it were – it’s got very limited tax-raising powers.”

    Which “sovereign” country in the world has “very limited tax-raising powers?”

    Which “sovereign” country in the world sends most of its revenues to a “foreign” treasury and then gets a fraction of it back to spend the way it likes?

    This article should be headline news in tomorrow’s edition of the “independence supporting” The National.

  121. K1 says:

    Oh and how salient is this in today’s Independent, from Rev’s twitter:

    “Theresa May must immediately clarify that the NHS will not be up for sale in any future negotiations with Trump. Hollowing out our health service in the name of a trade deal with the US would be an utter betrayal of most of those who voted to leave the EU.”

    One of the key factors that led to opposition to the TTIP trade deal between the US and EU was fear over whether it would open up the NHS to vast multi-national corporations who might put the profits ahead of patient care.

    Ms May faced repeated questions in the Commons on Wednesday, with Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn urging her to rule out any deal that would give US giants a toehold in British healthcare.

    The SNP also raised concerns that a deal could see UK supermarkets stocked with foods that do not meet current safety standards.’:

    ‘Theresa May suggests UK health services could be part of US trade deal’

    Welcome to Breixt means ‘Yer fucked!’

  122. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    It is sad. Of all papers the Guardian was in a position to see right from wrong, but unfortunately it had Severin with is Unionist and Labour pals. It did have good articles from the Herald at a few times, that’s how I got to posting on the Herald at a time when it was still quite fair. It too became distorted though, more and more as support for Indy grew and grew.

    I think in 2012 our Independence was a bit of a curiosity, a joke even, something that would never happen because the polls showed 25% support, 28%, even down to 21% in a twisted representation of the SSAS.

    Aye, the problem though with the media isn’t mostly the journos, columnists, editors, it’s the owners – and perhaps the advertisers. Get rid of them and we could have some straight reporting. And not only Scotland, but the whole UK would be better for it.

  123. Hermodr says:

    England/Wales (Wangland?) is in deep, deep trouble. We canna help them by biding wi them in solidarity to suffer the same fate. Only way we can help is to be a good example.

    Health should be another way to win the IndyRef2 handsomely then. Everyone needs to get speaking to the over-60s about how Yes = NHS, and No = privatisation & corporate greed.

  124. Rock says:


    “This is a prime example of where our ‘home based’ news media absolutely fail us.”

    We can forget about the unionist media.

    But is “independence supporting” The National doing anything more than milking gullible independence supporters?

    If the Rev. Stuart Campbell can post such articles day in and day out, why not The National?

    A challenge to The National’s lobbyists on here.

    Get to your masters and tell them to pay a decent fee to the Rev. Stuart Campbell and publish this article as headline news.

    On the day it is published, buy several copies and place them at different places, as some claim to do.

  125. yesindyref2 says:

    I’ve invented a new sweary expression:


  126. Calum McKay says:

    Perhaps JK Rowling, Kezia Dugdale, Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson or even Theresa May would like to comment on Professor Allyson Pollock’s observations?

    Obvious reaction is to say how relieved and proud we are of Scotland’s NHS, medical staff, administrators, orderlies, managers and cleaners.

    But let’s not forget the poor folk in England, let’s hope they realise that voting for parties that support trident or brexit is damaging their health!

  127. Rock says:


    “I’ve invented a new sweary expression:

    ROCK OFF!”

    Why were you left speechless when I challenged your colony point on the thread “A matter of disclosure”?

  128. Iain More says:

    So where is that Yoon poodle Thrawn today? Especially as it might be possible that some of our hospitals might have been built etc under the Yoon PFI scam as well.

    Well I will assume he is stuck up on of two arses – Tomkins or Harkins or perhaps another one that we don’t know about but it still stinks of Brit Nat roses to the Brit Nat Thrawn.

  129. Rock says:


    “This is the kind of information that should be shouted from the rooftops.”


    Shouting we are “sovereign” from the rooftops hasn’t got us much far in the last 300 years and will not in the next 300 years.

  130. George S Gordon says:

    To Stoker on 9 Feb 2017 at 3:33pm –

    Consider me duly admonished for posting a direct link to the Guardian, although I thought you were a bit harsh.

    I’d appreciate your advice on the preferred method of archiving.

  131. Shinty says:

    Re-branding our Health Service – we need to come up with a totally different format which bears no resemblance to NHS.

    If we’re going to regain our independence as a country in the near future, we need to start thinking like one and change EVERYTHING so there are no similarities to UK institutions.

    Just putting Scotland/Scottish before or after just won’t hack it. (Remember, as an iScotland, we won’t need Scotland/Scottish added to anything)

    I don’t have any suggestions but the Scots are clever and innovative people, surely we can come up with something creative.

    Sorry, realise this is perhaps not that important with so much else going on but it does bug me every time it’s brought up.

  132. Breeks says:

    Wasn’t Weetabix head Torrance recently questioning whether threats to Scotland’s NHS were a figment of our imagination? Wasn’t he trying to allege that fears for our NHS were unfounded, and just SNP scare tactics in the run up to 2014?


  133. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for the remainder of June 2013 now over on O/T.

  134. yesindyref2 says:

    Why were you left speechless when I challenged your colony point on the thread “A matter of disclosure”?

    I tend to ignore dicks most of the time.

  135. stewartb says:

    I suspect that all you well informed, alert readers with an interest in NHS Scotland’s performance may know this, but just in case!

    This web site ( ) provides a remarkably clear presentation of NHS Scotland’s performance statistics across all key metrics and at the level of: (i) individual hospitals; (ii) individual Health Boards; and (iii) for the whole of Scotland. Also, it provides plots of historic performance data for context. Clicking on any of the hospitals listed opens up the links to the key metrics.

    With apologies if this is already well known! I’ve just discovered it and found it very informative and easy to use.

  136. TJenny says:

    On the renaming of the Scottish NHS, how about Scottish Health And Welfare Service or ‘SHAWS’ – totally different to any form with NHS in, as I have a horrible feeling that any USA/UK deal on health privatisation could hoover up all and any set up with NHS in its name. Hope I’m just being paranoid. 🙁

  137. CameronB Brodie says:

    Culture can be described as the collection of social values and practices. So what chance Scottish culture, with a Brexit future looking like an endless springtime for neo-fascist neoliberal, economic freedom fighting, English nationalists?

    Globalisation and Neoliberalism:
    A New Theory for New Times?

    Convention theory and neoliberalism
    The Limits of Neoliberlism: Authority, Sovereignty and the Logic of Competition

    Culture under neoliberalism / neoliberal culture: Studies from the Pacific Rim

  138. HandandShrimp says:

    Prof Pollock is not going to be on Struth’s or Kezia’s Christmas card list – I wonder if Roden is on the phone demanding to know who invited her on the Unionist Broadcasting Corporation.

  139. Thepnr says:

    @George S Gordon

    This is for Chrome but will work much the same for other browsers I guess.

    The simplest way to archive any article is to use the site which is what most here use.

    The easiest way is to drag a little button marked “” to your bookmarks or toolbar as some browsers call it.

    If your bookmarks bar is not automatically showing using Chrome click on the three little buttons top right of your screen.

    Choose Settings, the tick the box for “Always show the bookmarks bar”. It will be very similar for other browsers.

    Else an alternative is you can just copy the URL of the link you want to post and paste it directly into which will then generate a link to post here.

    Best of luck and let us know how you got on 🙂

  140. George S Gordon says:

    I’ve no idea what you mean Stoker.

  141. George S Gordon says:

    @Thepnr – thanks very much.

  142. manandboy says:

    Just read Kirsty Strickland’s page in ‘The National’. Suffice to say, when someone keeps referring to the First Minister as ‘Sturgeon’, and in the same article refers to the Prime Minister as ‘Theresa May’, then she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    Add Kirsty Strickland’s attack on the Mis-Reporting Scotland billboard campaign and it’s game over.

    Are you listening at the editors desk of The National?

  143. George S Gordon says:

    @Thepnr – thanks very much, understood.

  144. naina tal says:

    as promised 5 Nationals going through random letter boxes after your “gullible” jibe. You really are an arsehole. Don’t know what you are doing on here with your black cloud descending on proceedings. If you really are a supporter of self determination you’ll fuck off because you are turning off genuine supporters. Suspect that’s not the case though hence the reason you are perpetually causing tbe barometer to plummet. What shift are you on this week by the way?

  145. Giving Goose says:

    This may be widely known and understood, so apologies if that is the case.

    It’s not so much the NHS, i.e. hospitals, that is under pressure but the lack of care in the community.

    Specifically the pressure is with older adults occupying beds, when they should be receiving care within a care home or living at home with assistance.

    Because care homes struggle as an industry (recruitment, retention, low pay, finite number of available places for residents) and care at home services are on their knees for the same reasons, this results in bed blocking at the hospital.

    In England it is no coincidence that the Government is allowing care in the community services to die because it produces the desired result i.e. bed blocking. And perceived failing in the NHS meets the privatization agenda. It’s all linked.

    In Scotland the Scottish government needs to act on this link immediately i.e. free up capacity in the community or there will be enormous issues with bed blocking.

    There already is a big problem and the government needs to focus on solutions within the community to ease pressure on hospitals.

    I work in the NHS.

  146. robertknight says:

    I hope that the Prof enjoyed her 5 minutes of fame on the BBC, for having failed to monster the SNP she’ll not be back again anytime soon.

    Having slipped through the SNP Bad filter unnoticed, someone at PQ will be getting their arse handed to them on a plate for letting her appear.

    Can’t have experts that aren’t On-Message! It’s simply not British!

  147. Stoker says:

    George S Gordon wrote on 9 February, 2017 at 6:40 pm:

    “Consider me duly admonished for posting a direct link to the Guardian, although I thought you were a bit harsh. I’d appreciate your advice on the preferred method of archiving.”

    No, not at all George S, that was me being polite. No problem, i’ll be back in 10-minutes or so to post directions.

    Glad to see you back posting with a vengeance. Thought at first you had got scunnert and were taking a break then realised you were probably following all the recent Westminster shenanigans.

  148. Dr Jim says:

    Will it not be the English who’ll have to change the name of their health service and not Scotland

    English Welsh Overpriced Kingdom Service

    or Ewoks for short

  149. Morgatron says:

    I heard this the other day driving to work and had a chuckle then and even a bigger laugh listening again tonight , the stupid bastards at the BBC would have been kicking each others shin during that interview , screaming who the fuck put her up for an interview , why wasnt she vetted?
    Great to hear an articulate and honest answer on Pravda for a change.

  150. yesindyref2 says:

    “Stay in the EU” losing a bit of ground, down to 61.7%.

    Could do with a bit of a boost …

  151. stewartb says:


    Just listened to extensive interview with the Foreign Minister of Latvia (population 2.2 million) on Channel 4 News on his country’s views on Brexit and what Latvia’s position will be in discussions on formulating the EU’s Brexit policy.

    Lucky 2.2 million Latvians.

    No doubt that Malta (population 440,000) is having some influence at present as it holds the Presidency of the EU!

  152. Shinty says:

    Dr Jim – good point. lol.

    Perhaps Scotland won’t need to change the name after all as the ‘NHS’ in England & Wales start to show up on the stock market.

  153. Stoker says:

    Re: George S Gordon (archiving)

    Cheers Alex! Thanks!

    George, was just about to invite you over to ‘Off Topic’ but i see ‘thepnr’ has beat me to the tutorial.

    The reasons i wrote what i did was as follows:
    (1): Your username, if said reasonably quickly, seems more like ‘Georgeous (Gorgeous) Gordon’ – i thought you were extracting the urine. One can never tell on WOS! 😉
    (2): When i posted that comment yesterday it was posted just 3-minutes after your post thereby creating the likelyhood that you seen it but still chose to post the BUM link today, reinforcing point one above. I’m still suspicious! 🙂
    (3): One gets awfully fed-up posting the same message more-or-less day after day. I’ll need to work on a standard reminder and just keep posting it. Thing is, most of the time, it’s the same people who repeatedly do it, people who should know better.

    If you are genuinely new to WOS then welcome aboard and if you like reading there is a wealth of top class articles stored in the sites archive facility. Top class ammo!

  154. Ian says:

    That Scotland’s NHS is doing well compared with rUK is something to be proud of, but because of being part of the UK, it’s continued well being is clearly built on shaky ground. The website below allows various comparisons to be made between countries over time. The dates can be set from about 1994 – 2014. Of all the countries available, I chose UK, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway. You can then choose various measures – economic, social etc.

    I first chose Health Spending per Capita. Guess which ‘country’ spent the least per person in 1994 and in every year since up to 2014. The UK. And by least I mean less than half of what was spent in Norway in 2014.

    How about GDP per Capita (PPP). The UK was bottom again every year compared with the others.

    Capital Investment as % of GDP? Same again.

    The decline and poor performance of the UK is systemic and there’s only one way to stop being dragged any further down by it. The NHS along with other essential public services needs a strong economy to support them. The UK has provided neither a strong economy nor good services (compared with so many countries in Europe). Being in the UK is the worst of both worlds.

  155. yesindyref2 says:

    Trump Health Executive 51st State Pay As You Go (USUK) plc.

    A long name for a lifelong debt.

  156. Ken500 says:

    The Tories are cutting NHS funding £20Billion over five years until 2020. £4Billion a year. The Scottish Gov is increasing SNHS from other budgets. Cutting NHS funding just means others relevant costs go up. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink and a sugar ‘tax’ etc would keep people healthier and cut Health costs. Lower sugar in foods. The Scandanavian countries used these methods to cut health cost and have healthier people. Better diets. Finland now has one of the best diets in the world. Japanese diet of fish and vegetables. People live the longest in the world. Mediterranean diet is healthy. A lot of fish and vegetables/fruit. Less processed foods.

    Social care funding has also been cut elsewhere ‘Bedroom tax’ etc put up social care expense. People have to be rehoused putting more pressures on council budgets. Elderly people being able to remain in their own homes is more favourable and more cost affective. Sheltered care £60 a week. Social care £60+ week. Residential home care £600 a week. Hospital care £600 a day.

  157. Robert Graham says:

    All News reports on failing school buildings constructed using PFI by the administrations prior to the SNP taking control at holyrood missing the relevant information , the involvement of Jack Mcconnell and the Labour party , and to top the lot we have the ex brickie neil findlay demanding an inquiry the last thing Labour want is an investigation and this joker is demanding an inquiry , Ha Ha aye right pal , Labour still treating the public like idiots they haven’t learned a thing have they ,still as thick as pigs shit .

  158. Rock says:


    ““Why were you left speechless when I challenged your colony point on the thread “A matter of disclosure”?”

    I tend to ignore dicks most of the time.”

    I can’t be a “dick” then as you never omit to respond to a post I make.

    I made a post at 6:19 pm today and you “responded” at 6:28 pm.

  159. Thepnr says:

    @Giving Goose

    It’s definitely not widely known or understood. So thanks for posting, I’d love to see more posts from people who are actually in the front line of the NHS and know what it’s all about and what the real problems are.

    Wings isn’t here to give us an opportunity to fight with each other or diss Trolls. It’s job is to share information and educate.

    That’s why I’m here to share and educate if I can, even though at times I do fight and diss trolls LOL. Sometimes that needs done too but it’s not my main job and not something I like to do. I wouldn’t though like to see Wings comments below the line be overrun by negative and unhelpful comments and there can be lot’s of them!

  160. Thepnr says:


    I think a very useful thing would be a written step by step guide for how to archive links that could be posted when required so as to provide information for those new to WOS.

    Then when a new poster turns up you step in and provide the guide.

    I’ll nominate you for the task if your up for it? 🙂

  161. heedtracker says:

    “This article should be headline news in tomorrow’s edition of the “independence supporting” The National.”

    Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS btl, listen up, The National is just another newspaper. Its not going to win ref 2.

    Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.

    Most if not all WoS readers are more than aware of all the above, except you Rock.

    Both The National and Wings over Scotland could amalgamate into the National over Scotland but even then Rock, even then…

  162. Rock says:

    naina tal.

    as promised 5 Nationals going through random letter boxes after your “gullible” jibe. You really are an arsehole.”

    Answer that then:


    “Just read Kirsty Strickland’s page in ‘The National’. Suffice to say, when someone keeps referring to the First Minister as ‘Sturgeon’, and in the same article refers to the Prime Minister as ‘Theresa May’, then she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

  163. That`s the de facto English Parliament in recess until 20th Feb,

    last few days have been compulsive viewing,

    from Berclow refusing to let Donald address HoC,

    Salmond and deputy speaker Lindsay Hoyle having words,

    Patrick Grady talking for 58mins and then at PMQ`s questioning Theresa about filibustering,which she and the Express totally missed the obvious irony,

    and then the SNP, near the end of a late night voting on EU and Article 50, spontaneously burst into a magnificent version of the European Anthem, Ode to Joy,

    for me the star of the show this week has been Joanna Cherry who has been omniscient and omnipresent,

    the Scottish cringers will have hated us poor jocks getting uppety to their Westminster masters.

  164. yesindyref2 says:

    @George S Gordon
    That’s an important article in the Guardian about Eisenstadt. She is unbridled and independent in what she reports, I’ve read them. She’s not afraid to critcise the Scottish Government which is precisely why Sturgeon has reappointed her.

    Her reports are used of course by the Unionists to cricise the SG, well, fair enough. The quality of their criticism can be judged on its content which is usually poor.

    Just recently she was accused of giving in to pressure from the Scottish Government over changes she made to a report (or reports). She was forced to defend herself which is shocking, and has done so successfully. All credit to her to keep going, it can’t be easy to have the oppoisonition (deliberate) constantly try to user her in their attempts to discredit the Scottish Government, while meanwhile ignoring the reports themselves.

    I hope she stays impartial, and thanks very much for the link to the Guardian article, it’s very interesting.

  165. Rock says:


    ““Stay in the EU” losing a bit of ground, down to 61.7%.


    Could do with a bit of a boost …”

    Yet again a link to a unionist rag.

    The likes of you probably attack me at every opportunity because you are unionists pretending to be independence supporters and are unable to counter the pro-independence comments I post.

  166. Allan says:

    Not mentioned so far, so perhaps not widely known, but Sheila Cannell, director of Scotland in union is also from Northern Ireland originally!

  167. Conan the Librarian says:

    Gordon Hector was head of communications for Circle Healthcare, the first private company to run an NHS hospital in England.

    The Care Quality Commission branded the hospital “inadequate”, it was put into special measures, and Circle pulled out the deal early.

    Not a very good entry in your CV, eh? So why did Ruth Davidson hire him as spin doctor in chief (excuse the pun)?

  168. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s a curious quote from Eisenstadt in that Grun article:

    “On the child poverty story, it goes back to Iain Duncan Smith, who I think was serious, and did really care

    I despised IDS, but towards the end wondered whether he was perhaps overcome by the likes of the hideous Osborne (Atlantic Bridge again), and even naive. Perhaps he genuinely thought he was “doing good”, rather than causing untold suffering – and poverty. Towards his end, he did seem to regret a lot of what he did.

    Poverty and health are very inter-connected, tackle poverty, reduce the demands on the SNHS. That’s one of the reasons I suspect a lot of us want Independence, to reverse generations of neglect by the UK Government in Scotland before devolution.

    But it will be a long journey, even with Indy.

  169. heedtracker says:

    Jay Rayner ?@jayrayner1 22h22 hours ago
    Hands up if you wish you could vote for a party led by @NicolaSturgeon

    Great scoff too.

  170. Thepnr says:


    Hahahaha You’ve never posted a pro Independence post in yer puff.

    You’re a laugh a minute so ye are.

  171. Rock says:


    “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS btl, listen up, The National is just another newspaper. Its not going to win ref 2.”

    Yes, but it is milking gullible independence supporters.

    The extra funds help to keep The Herald alive.

    “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”

    So you and your pals are (mis)using this site for chatting aren’t you?

    And putting off genuine independence supporters.

    If anyone can tip the balance in favour of winning, it is this site and its author.

  172. Ghillie says:

    yesindyref2 @ 8.03 pm

    Thanks for your comments on Ms Eisenstadt.

    Illuminating = )

  173. Breeks says:

    I kinda wonder sometimes…

    I wonder, in 100 years from now, whether Scottish kids studying for their Scottish history exams will be learning of the day when the Scottish MP’s, the same folk who would later deliver Independence, sat in defiance of Westminster trying to pull Scotland out of Europe when the Speaker of the House had gagged Scottish voices in debate, the next day they sang the European Anthem in the Commons, and then were silenced again.

    It’s a funny thing history, especially when you see it being written in real time. I’ve come over all Gladiator; “What we do in life, echoes through eternity”. Aye. Let’s all hope it does.

  174. Rock says:


    I despised IDS, but towards the end wondered whether he was perhaps overcome by the likes of the hideous Osborne (Atlantic Bridge again), and even naive. Perhaps he genuinely thought he was “doing good”, rather than causing untold suffering – and poverty. Towards his end, he did seem to regret a lot of what he did.”

    Anyone having any sympathy for IDS is either extremely gullible or a right wing Tory in disguise.

    You often mention visiting The Express website.

  175. It was really very generous indeed for Ruth Davidson in Parliament to praise all the educational achievements of so many small independent countries.

  176. HandandShrimp says:

    iScot magazine? Is all well? I got my January edition and my rather upmarket passport holder arrived just before Christmas but the February edition hasn’t turned to. I went to the website but both Firefox and MS Edge are blocking it as insecure.

    I am sure I saw a trailer or something for the Feb edition with Prof Curtice on the front. I fancied reading that 🙁

  177. Legerwood says:

    Thepnr says:
    9 February, 2017 at 7:57 pm

    “”I think a very useful thing would be a written step by step guide for how to archive links that could be posted when required so as to provide information for those new to WOS.

    Then when a new poster turns up you step in and provide the guide.

    I’ll nominate you for the task if your up for it? ?””

    Somebody gave the instructions the other day but they were instructions for someone using a laptop or PC. I use a tablet 99% of the time.

    Instructions for tablets would be useful otherwise I just have to post the whole link which is something I do only very occasionally and often someone will turn it into an archive link.

  178. Stoker says:

    Thepnr wrote on 9 February, 2017 at 7:57 pm:

    “I think a very useful thing would be a written step by step guide for how to archive links that could be posted when required so as to provide information for those new to WOS. Then when a new poster turns up you step in and provide the guide. I’ll nominate you for the task if your up for it?”

    No problem, accepted! Others can chip in also from time to time especially if i’m AWOL.

  179. yesindyref2 says:


    It’s interesting that Sturgeon had the Health position, and is making such an effort to get behind poverty. And the care provision, to reduce loads on hospitals. She’s also continued the work on apprenticeships which my son is benefitting from, and the 100% small business rates allowance which I am. That’s the other side to society – provide incentives to get out from under.

    I guess drugs abuse costs a fair bit as well, and that often has its roots in poverty and lack of opportunity. Despair in other words. Luckily for us, the Unionsts underestimate her. It’s a shame Labour don’t really get behind it instead of trying to make political capital. They can be sensible at times, like supporting the vote in Holyrood yesterday. Why can’t they get back to being Labour?

    Seems now across the border, they’re looking more at bed-blocking and care. But not a lot of voices about poverty. Ah well.

  180. One_Scot says:

    That’s the thing about the over 65’s. The last time they voted ‘No’ they thought they were voting for the status quo, which all turned out to be lies, but this time they will be voting ‘No’, knowing full well that they will be voting to destroy their children’s and Grand children’s futures.

    Given the consequence of ‘No’ means years of Brexit hardship and Scotland suffering brutal Tory policies for perhaps decades, that is going to be a difficult decision to have to live with.

  181. heedtracker says:

    So you and your pals are (mis)using this site for chatting aren’t you?

    And putting off genuine independence supporters.

    If anyone can tip the balance in favour of winning, it is this site and its author.

    Again, its state the obvious time.

    Rock if you are a troll, btl on any blog or newspaper is still and only btl chat. None of it is going to win ref 2.

    Christ knows we all wish we could write that killer comment, or WoS could be delivered to every voters eyes, the only read newspaper, The National.

    People know what they know and voted accordingly. You cant convince, you cant brain wash, or put people off voting YES. Its just not how people work. If and when enough Scots do decide that they’re ready for the nation state of Scotland, it will happen.

    Until then, you can bash away on here, all the “truth” there is can be told but its way bigger than all of us.

  182. Wull says:

    There is no need to for an expensive re-brand of Scotland’s NHS. Keep to ‘NHS’. But remember that NHS now means National Health Scotland.

    And don’t be afraid to say all three words out loud, and in full, at every opportunity.

    I think that’s how the former ‘Scottish Executive’ was changed into ‘the Scottish Government’. A whole lot of people just started referring to it as ‘the Scottish Government’ … again and again … until it became the normal way to say it.

    And, pretty quickly, nobody ever mentioned ‘the Scottish Executive’ again … That phrase just disappeared … Gradually at first, maybe … But then, suddenly, it was gone …

    As Allyson Pollock said, there is no longer any such thing – alas! – as the National Health Service in England. National Health Scotland does still exist. However, it is under threat from knock-on consequences on the Barnett formula arising from the activities of the English abolitionists of 2012.

    Save National Health Scotland!

    Just keep saying it.

    If you want to save National Health Scotland, vote for Scotland’s independence!

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    @DerekM says: 9 February, 2017 at 4:47 pm:

    “How about The Scottish Medical Association,SMA for short.

    Why waste your time and the time of our MPs and MSPs attempting to force the de facto parliament of the country of England to change anything. They quite simply are NOT going to do it.

    Face facts – The call themselves the government of, “The United Kingdom”. Yet any semblance that an actual kingdom that is united ended lang syne, (Long since).

    They, and their propaganda wing will just ignore anything they decide to ignore. They will tell us all to sit down and eat our cereal as usual and we must do as we are told to do by our masters.

    This behaviour will not stop until we stop allowing them to overrule anything they decide to over rule. They have, in case you have not noticed, set up a so called Supreme Court and that Supreme Court has just ruled that the Kingdom of Scotland no longer legally exists.

    That means the Supreme Court and the Westminster parliament of the de facto Parliament of the Country of England now claims to be sovereign over all parliament and, what is more, it has used the Royal prerogative to claim it has sovereignty to do so.

    This abuse of power will not cease until we tell them we are no longer going to tolerate their abuse and that will not be an easy task to make stick without the aid of our friends in the European Union.

    What is more, without their support, the only other option is bloodshed. The only way to end an abusive marriage is for the abused partner to either walk out of the marriage or, with the help of outsiders, to throw the abuser out of the marriage for abusive marriages never end any other way.

    If the EU deserts Scotland then we must walk out of the union.

  184. crazycat says:

    @ HandandShrimp at 8.36

    I was wondering too! I tried to make a small contribution to the crowdfunder earlier today (feeling guilty that I’d previously considered a subscription sufficient) and couldn’t get past the details page.

    That might be because I put “Scotland” in the country box, but usually there is a message to indicate that that is the issue.

    I’ll try again and see what happens.

  185. call me dave says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    Thanks for the excellent set of links. Saw some of it as it happened but they are well worth another look.
    Better second time round.

    We have a good set of representatives fighting our cause in WM.

    A tour de force by Patrick Grady MP and his colleagues in how to get the point over in spite of the opposition.

    (listening to it again now) 🙂

  186. Thepnr says:


    To me it’s no problem if anyone has to post the whole link though I understand the reason not to “Many a mickle makes a muckle” and why give the BUM anything at all if it can be avoided.

    It can’t always be avoided though, say if there’s an embedded video you want to show then that won’t appear. Some newspapers as i found out yesterday on the Courier redirect the page so you don’t get the original content.

    So here’s what I think post an archive link if you can, if you can’t because of using a tablet or whatever then post it anyway.

    A good link shared between us on Wings is worth a lot more than any pennies the corrupt media might earn from it, especially as most people here (I hope) use ad blockers.

    Knowledge is what we come here for, sharing that knowledge will help us convince No’s and I hope will win us the next referendum.

  187. Effijy says:

    I heard this on the 6th Feb and posted it here.
    The Truth from a Real Expert in the field who isn’t looking
    for a nice little earner or award from Westminster’s corruption fund.

    Why isn’t this on a Billboard?
    Why does Labour’s only Scottish MP still support Westminster when their policies like this cripple and kill Scots?

    It is yet another sign of Westminster’s distain for all things Scottish that they would seek our assistance in how an NHS should be run.

    Westminster would be happy for the English to die rather than seek advice from Scotland.
    Maybe more accurate to say that they are already killing them through neglect.

  188. crazycat says:

    Re: iScot fundraiser

    Success at the second attempt, but the page looked different and had a drop-down menu for “country”, forcing me to use United Kingdom. Hope it went through ok.

  189. Legerwood says:

    Giving Goose
    “”In Scotland the Scottish government needs to act on this link immediately i.e. free up capacity in the community or there will be enormous issues with bed blocking.

    There already is a big problem and the government needs to focus on solutions within the community to ease pressure on hospitals.

    I work in the NHS.””


    The Scottish Government passed legislation in 2014 to integrate Health and social care in Scotland. This legislation came into effect in April 2016.

    Since you work in the NHS I would have thought you would know about it. You can find out more if you follow the link below

  190. MsDidi says:

    Nana re Committee of Constitutional Affairs link
    Thank you for the link …I was finding it very interesting until Saryusz Wolski a Polish MEP stated that the Barnett formula costs England a lot of money (he couldn’t remember how much!) He was immediately followed by Diane James….what is she doing there anyway?…apart from trying to rubbish Scotland. For those of you who haven’t heard it her contribution began by saying that the union between Scotland and England is a voluntary one which resulted from Scotlands disastrous foray in South America and becoming a bankrupt country!!! She went on to talk about Scots and referendums but by then I had lost it!

  191. Ken500 says:

    Cameron gained power in 2010 on promises to protect the NHS and Education. Doing the exact opposite. Committed electoral fraud. Gave a lying VOW. Reneged on every promise.

  192. heedtracker says:

    Graun, Thursday 9 February 2017 16.59 GMT. A really shit version of the God Father, except real and deadly. Why wasn’t the Ligger seated at his master feet?

    “Rupert Murdoch was in room for Michael Gove’s Donald Trump interview

    It is unclear whether media mogul sat through interview or just introduced new president to former minister and Times columnist”

  193. Lenny Hartley says:

    I have mentioned this before, anybody who thinks that a paper with a circulation half that of another paper in the stable is keeping its bigger stablemate going is either an idiot or has a different agenda.

    As for Yesindy2 Mr Rock , so what if his political leanings are to the right or the left or anywhere in between, what matters is that he supports Independence, something that many on here including myself suspect you do not.

    Apologise folks for feeding the troll, but sometimes these dicks just get to you.

    Mr Salmond as his best again tonight!

    Also note a few celebs hailings Nicola’s response to Corbyn yesterday

  194. yesindyref2 says:

    @heed: “Christ knows we all wish we could write that killer comment

    I have every confidence in you.

    Go for it!

  195. Liz Rannoch says:

    @ One_Scot 8.47

    Not necessarily so! My mother-out-law is 93 and is one of those ‘See yon Nicola Sturgeon…’ types. I’ve tried on several occasions to explain things to her, but she’s a very strong character and we have history – over 40 years worth – and I prefer to only see her when I have to!

    Unfortunately, she’s a ‘BBC don’t lie’ type and thinks I’m paranoid. Ironic thing is that she practically has a season ticket to the Vic.and thinks it’s her right to slag off nurses if she feels she’s not getting enough attention. The source of much falling out between hubby and her. A diehard but will never be changed.

  196. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Thanks. I use the Express to sharpen my teeth 🙂

  197. Bob MACK says:

    I thought I had heard every attempt to smear Nicola,but the Express take the biscuit.
    They have a story headlined as where a “relative” of Nicolas had burnt a £20 note in front of a homeless man which was a horrid thing to do. He is a law student at Cambridge and a young Conservative.

    It is only when you read further you find he was the son of Nicolas current sister in law ,from her first marriage.


  198. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindy2 have a day off on Sunday and come down to Arran, we’re having an Indy2 walk up Glen Rosa starting at 11.00 am , we’re trying to up our fitness for the forthcoming street slogging.

  199. Stoker says:

    thepnr wrote:

    “So here’s what I think post an archive link if you can, if you can’t because of using a tablet or whatever then post it anyway.”

    This is where i completely disagree. Nobody is ever forced to post a direct link, people doing so always choose to do so. It is not a case of preventing “a few pennies” – it’s more about breaking habits and not encouraging others to help the BUM.

    WOS has upwards of 300,000 readers (and growing) so every time someone posts a direct link they are potentially sending a lot more than a few pennies to that BUM site. Plus, those BUM sites never allow direct links to WOS articles to be posted on their sites.

    As for the embedded video argument, there is nearly always an alternative floating around somewhere on the internet, especially on Youtube.

    I consider the “I’m on a tablet” excuse to be right up there with those who blame their partners not wanting to miss Corry or Emerdale for having a tv licence. There’s no need to post the link, just post a comment about the article in question, name your source and no doubt some Winger will do the business.

    There is always a choice and until the day the BUM starts allowing direct links to WOS etc on their sites then they should be given the BUM’s rush from us.

  200. CameronB Brodie says:

    “Anyone having any sympathy for IDS is either extremely gullible or a right wing Tory in disguise.”

    Perhaps, perhaps not. I read IDS as a traditional social Darwinist. Neoliberalism is a relatively recent phenomena, so perhaps he didn’t understand what he was playing with until it was too late.

    Just speculating like.

  201. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny Hartley –

    I’ve just been dropping in on-and-off (mostly off) since that prick Rock got back in the harness, but I caught your comment there about the Sunday walk in Arran? Any chance of a wee bit more detail? If I can clear the decks I’m up for that.

    In any event, hoots brother, hope you’re well!


  202. K1 says:

    You can archive from a tablet, kindle or iPad.

    First bookmark link on your tablet.

    Exact same process: place your finger into the browser bar and hold it, options either ‘select all’, ‘copy’, ‘paste’ will appear as icons or the ‘written word’. Select ‘copy’. You have now placed the link on to the browser ‘clipboard’.

    Go to your bookmarks/favourites and open the page. Place your finger into the long box, then ‘paste’. Click ‘submit’ and let it do its thing. You now have an archived copy of your article.

    Simply place your finger into ‘that’ browser’s address bar and ‘copy’ ‘that’ archived link. Post accordingly.

  203. jockmcx says:

    say it ain’t so archie!

    dya think he was after an o b e or summit?

  204. Bob MACK says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    Robert, I sense a change in your mood tonight. Firstly, the Supreme Court studiously avoided making a ruling on sovereignty. They inferred rather than stated that Scotlands elected representatives carried it with them into Parliament, and thus it was expressed. That has not been challenged.

    Secondly, the Tories et Al have made every effort to prevent a second referendum. They have said they would try to block it, and also that there was no need or desire.

    Yet we know it is going to happen. If they had the power that you say the Supreme Court gave them, then another referendum would be off the table permanently. It is not.

    Therefore somebody is wrong in this business. If the people of Scotland had no power there would never be a choice given to us. It is as simple as thar.

  205. Thepnr says:


    If anyone can tip the balance in favour of winning, it is this site and its author.

    Glad you have seen that and admitted it. Is that why the UK state hates this site so much?


    You are the man to write the step by step guide for using an archive site instead of the original BUm article. You need to find one then to for tablets or iPhones as lots use them to post on Wings.

    Quite a job, might be possible? I don’t know but I’d rather have the links than no posts.

  206. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Tempting. If I made the 9.45 foot passenger, I’d get there about right. Mind you I’m that out of condition, I’d probably just walk straight back 🙂 Or wait at the pub. Ah. I’d have to get the train then. Mmmm. Anyway, I know where it is!

    Was interested in your comment another thread about the English on Arran, doesn’t surprise me though I’ve not got to be able to talk about it when I’m doing the round. They seemed as though they’d be up for Indy though. More into local issues than Westminster.

  207. K1 says:

    Stoker, aye twas so…just biting ma tongue and raging at the goings on in Westminster…ta 😉

  208. Pete says:

    Just watching Katy’s Adler’s documentary on the rise of populism in the EU.
    She is Brussels based and very pro Europe but the story she portrays of rising right wing populism is frightening.
    Even Schultz and Verhofstadt were fairly downbeat about the situation.
    I think the SNP should be a bit wary about all this ‘Ode to Joy’ stuff as they might soon find that the EU starts to break up.
    Just noticed tonight that Germany has the highest trade surplus ever which means that the other countries are going backwards and being crucified by the low euro for Germany but too high foe them.
    Scotland should stay as far away from the EU as possible.

  209. @heedtracker

    Trump,Murdoch and Gove all have strong connections to the North East,

    Murdochs father came from Cruden,

    Trump has his Golf course at Balmedie,

    and Gove (ex Labour party) was brought up in Aberdeen,

    a right bunch of loons.

  210. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cuilean says: 9 February, 2017 at 5:55 pm:

    “Annoyingly, it’s the ‘No’ voting over-65 age group which benefit the most from the SNP’s redoubtable defence of our Scottish NHS!”

    “Sometimes I think to hell with the old bastards.”

    Who the hell do you think you are you snivelling young bastard to call any older person a bastard? How dare you.

    If it hasn’t got across that addled abomination you call your brain by now that these people are not voting for unionism because they are old but because they are the remnants of the once, almost wall to wall, unionists parties of Scotland. Then you need a good kick up the arse for it would be a waste of time booting you in the head.

    The reason the Labour, Tory and LibDem parties, and their supporters, are unionists is not simply because they are old.

    Being old does not predispose anyone to be a unionist.

    use what little brains you have for thinking and realise that the older demographic in the unionist ranks is because these unionist parties are not recruiting so very many younger people into their ranks as are the SNP and the other independence supporting parties. That means the longer the wait for independence the younger will be the average age of indy supporters and the older will be the average age of the unionists. Just look at pictures of a Scottish Tory Conference. It is composed of mainly blue rinsed old ladies.

    Ergo they are voting for unionist parties because they are unionists and arseholes like you will most certainly only succeed in alienating any of them that were having the slightest doubts about their well established unionist leanings.

    If you can alienate an seasoned old indy campaigner like myself then you most certainly will only succeed in strengthening the resolve of an older unionist to make the effort to get out and vote for the union.

    Sometimes I wonder why I bother any more. Perhaps it is time I just joined those other old unionists – after all I am an older person so it must be about time I voted like one to please the younger Indy numpties.

  211. Big Jock says:

    Just got my Falkirk upper braes conservative councillor candidate flyer in. Along with a wee picture of admitted layer Ruth pleading me to sign a petition to stop the Snp having an indi ref, that nobody wants apparently. Remind me folks did Scotland need a referendum on Europe.

    My car is parked in drive with an Snp badge, ecosse sticker, massive euro flag and French flag. What part of these racist, bigoted morons thinks that I will sign their fucking petition!

  212. Bob MACK says:

    “Just watching Katy Adler” That is your first mistake. The end.

  213. Nana says:


    Hello MsDidi. Yes I heard that comment from Wolski, does he really think we don’t pay taxes in Scotland. Uninformed hogwash from him.

    I was hoping Kirsty Hughes would put him right but maybe it wasn’t the right time or place. I don’t think I could have held my tongue,lol

    Here’s the link for anyone who missed it, starts around 9.36

  214. yesindyref2 says:

    EU bad yadda yadda yadda

    It’d be the 585 of course! No changes needed and it’s free 🙂

    Might see if I can get this order done – when I start it! This week has fair thrown me off course, one bit of news after another, good polls, even the high of seeing that Le Monde with the Scottish Referendum menu tab already there – with articles.

  215. Meg merrilees says:

    Big Jock – send it back to them in an unstamped letter. They’ll have to pay the charges!

  216. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Lenny Hartley Enjoy

  217. Meindevon says:

    Even though I live down here I never knew the ENHS as such no longer exists. I will definitely be passing that info around a few friends.

    O/T I applied for Question Time last week (for tonight’s one in Torquay) and was shocked to get a phone call presumably to ask me along. As it happens I had to say I was now unable to go but I did manage to get on a wee dig about how QT was not what it used to be. The nice man said well it’s all about Brexit and Trump at the moment but I said well actually I felt it was more that the guests and politicians were mostly right wing leaning and always seemed to outnumber the left leaning ones. I know it’s not much but I feel I made a small point.

  218. silver19 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    HOC video version of Mr Salmond asking about “Bend one for Beckham”

  219. K1 says:

    Right, will try again.

    Ye can post archived links from a tablet whether iPad or kindle and probably all others:

    First bookmark in yer bookmarks/favourites

    Don’t know how to ‘bookmark’ on iPad? First open, at the top right hand side of the address bar there is a wee icon, a square with an arrow pointing upwards, click on it, drop down menu, third section down there is a ‘star’ shaped icon. Click on it, you’ll see ‘Add to Favourites’, see also has option to ‘save’ or ‘cancel’. Click ‘save’.

    You now have a bookmarked copy of archive on your ‘reading list’. You can access your saved/favourites by clicking on the little ‘book’ icon to the right of your address bar.

    When you want to archive an article. Place your finger in the address bar of the article, ‘copy’ or ‘paste’ will appear. Choose copy. Then go into your bookmark/favourites, click to open Place your finger in the long box and hold it there for a wee second, click ‘paste’. The click ‘submit’ at the end of that box.

    Let it do its thing. You now have an archived copy of the article. Simply place your finger into the address bar of that archived copy and post accordingly.

    Think this pretty much covers all tablets. They all have ‘favourite/bookmark’ functions. All have ‘copy’ ‘paste’ functions. Tablets haven’t been stripped of the basics of cut/copy/paste, archiving isn’t therefore problematic from tablets. (Given the bloody cost of them ye’d be forgiven for throwing it against a wall if it didn’t have these simple tools)

  220. Thepnr says:


    Look in the mirror.

    You are part of the rising right wing populism. Or do you not even see that in yourself?

    That’s why I oppose your right wing views.

  221. K1 says:

    Correction: little ‘book’ icon is to the left…y’know the other right…of the address bar.

  222. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Robert Peffers 10.02 Tammy Doff tae you Mr . When you post a put down you dont miss an hit the wa, us auld wrinklies keep on keeping on lol.

  223. Lenny Hartley says:

    Bob Mack, the gift of having a referendum is not Westminsters to give, the UN declaration of Human Rights state “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.” it would save a lot of hassle if they do agree to another section 30 order, and if they did refuse it would boost support for Independence. So if they want to cut off their nose to spite their face, then that’s up to them,however they are desperate so they may try some false flag operations. let’s face it, they are screwed without Scotland so we have to be ready for anything and not take the bait from any agent provocateur. There was a book published in the 90’s called Britains secret War, which goes into detail about the modus operandi of the British State against Scottish Nationalists, basically they will suck in some soft touches and get them to do their bidding. So we must ensure that if the British Establishment play hardball, then the only response is of the Gandi type. Anything else and it will be detrimental to the cause of Scottish Independence.

  224. obviously down to ones own opinions,

    but have to question anyone giving Iain Duncan Smith the benefit of any doubt,

    he was instrumental in the forced sanctioning of the mentally and physically disabled,

    the department of Work and Pensions during his tenure caused untold pain and suffering to millions it was supposed to be there to help and protect,

    he should be tried at the Hague for Crimes against Humanity,

    and that is me being polite.

  225. Big Jock says:

    Petes comment is both ill informed and wishful thinking. The EU is not a right wing organisation. Maggie May, Farage, Le Pen etc Al are the right wingers.

    These are the people and parties who wish to bring chaos and bigotry into Europe. We must stay on the right side of history and that is together with our EU cousins.

  226. Elizabeth Stanley says:

    Round of applause for Robert & Ronnie.(Is clapping allowed here?)

    I must be on a deporting list as I’m English born & just about to claim my retirement pension.

    My SNP membership card will have to be destroyed & my vote for Scottish independence not counted.

  227. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Pete @ 21:54,

    Clear enough. We have here a right Kipper.

    That little musical interlude was about the best thing that’s happened in that fusty corroded old institution for the last century, and will likely make a wonderful footnote on Scottish independence in the history books.

    Whereas your negative rightwing isolationist bollocks will be forgotten before midnight.

    Or even already.

  228. Bob MACK says:

    @Lenny Hartley,

    This government don’t give a damn about UN human rights. Today they supported Israel in spite of it being in violation of several UN resolutions re Palestine. That has been going on for many many years.

    The methodology is to claim you support UN aims ,then kick them into the long grass,

    However we know a referendum will come

  229. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Have posted this before, many moons ago, but it’s a nice wee reminder of what QT used to be like, before Dumblefud took the helm.

    Some big beasts, all very civil, and, goodness-me, the subject-matter?

    Plus ca change an’ aw that…

    Peter Sissons, with Alex Salmond, Alan Beith, John Smith and Michael Heseltine.

  230. Marie Clark says:

    Robert Peffers @10.02, by jings Robert, ye didnae miss an hit the wa’ there.

    Nae wunner yer mad though. It fair makes the blood bile some o’ these daft young whipersnappers tarring us auld yins wi the same brush.Some o’ us hae been in this fecht fur lang syne, probably afore they were even a glint in their faithers een.

    Never mind them Robert, we’ll keep on fechtin in the hope that we micht still be here tae enjoy it when it comes.

    Chapeau Mr Peffers.

  231. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ian Brotherhood just a wee walking group of us getting fit for the big push 🙂 , if you get the 0945 from Ardrossan on this coming Sunday , you can get the bus from the Pier, any going to Lochranza or Blackwaterfoot. Get off at the Museum (don’t think they stop when there isn’t an official bus stop these days) and walk about 300 hundred yards taking the left hand road at the junction. First on the right is signposted for Glen Rosa, the start point is about another mile up the road beside a small car park on the left and small white ex water board pumping house building, walk time is from 11 to 3′ bring a packed lunch. You will be tight for starting time so if your coming let me know and I can either arrange a lift or wait till u get to the start point. Forecast dry but cold so wrap up warm, we won’t be doing anything strenuous all on path with a wee bit of up and down but it gets a bit narrow up the Glen

  232. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny Hartley –

    You’ve posted since my question, so you must’ve missed it – where are youse meeting for the Sunday walk?

  233. mr thms says:

    A herculean effort by Team BBC all day to omit details on when work began and finished on the schools in Edinburgh..

    Now if the BBC, can put all that effort into keeping basic information from entering the public domain can you imagine the shear scale of the effort that goes into keeping Scotland in its box?

  234. heedtracker says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    9 February, 2017 at 9:54 pm

    Trump,Murdoch and Gove all have strong connections to the North East,

    They are odd coincidences are they not? Its extraordinary to think that the most powerful man in that room was Murdoch too. He’s like the BBC, counts them and counts them out.

    Mind how mad old Brown frae Fife, was his bestie, god fathers to their kids, barbies on Sunday afternoons, loads of tinnies, and then blammo! Poor old Crash is the most unpopular Prime Minister ever.

    And they clearly went after Gordo because they knew they couldn’t trust Crash after the bank’s crashed. They knew that it was highly likely that Labour under Crash, would have to come for the rich, like Murdoch, who have all our money, just to win in 2010. Close run as it was and then who got the tories crooks back in, LibDems. Its awful now watching these sleaze bags trying to creep back.

    Cruden bay is really nice in the summer by the way:D

  235. Effijy says:

    Was surprised to hear ITV News at 10 announce NHS England
    in Crisis. NHS Scotland performed better, and NHS Wales worse

    Thinking about it, I think their intension to include Scotland was only to show that England are not Bad, only in the middle?

    Later in the programme they suggested that Scotland England and N. Ireland are all missing the A & E waiting times?

    Again another attempt at saying England’s Shocking A & E
    figures are alright as we are all the same.

    No F**** are Not!
    Scotland should have the worse NHS in the UK as we have more Rural Areas to serve, we have an unhealthy diet like no other, and we have a history of alcohol abuse, and yet,
    we set the A & E targets higher than anyone else in the UK,
    we prioritise our funding more than anyone else in the UK,
    and we deliver services better than anyone else in the UK.

    The Red and Blue Tories are fuming having already privatised more than 10% of what was their NHS, they look like a surgeon has cut them a new very large one!

    Can anyone tell me if Scotland’s NHS did miss the UK A & E
    Targets over the holidays, and if so by how much?

  236. Thepnr says:

    Right I’m giving you fair warning!

    All you OLD bastards and ENGLISH bastards better fuck off from Scotland or vote YES next time. Your not welcome here even if you are ma granny!

    Right huv ye got it noo?

    I don’t think we need to take that tone. I think we need to work to persuade those that can be persuaded. The above is what a losers post looks like and sounds like and there are are a few of them on Wings. I’m not one one of them.

  237. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Elizabeth Stanley 10.33 U kin clap n stamp yer feet in the front o the bus, an if U kin whistle The Great Escape theme tune U’ll be weil in lol.

  238. yesindyref2 says:

    Oops, that’s me out for Sunday. France v Scotland, any other match I’d watch off the recording 🙂

  239. robertknight says:

    My kid’s high school modern studies class were at Holyrood today for FMQs. “How was it?” I asked. The response was “the Tory woman in red said we were all thick”. “Oh dear” said I. “And what did you think of the FM?”. “The others just try to bully her and make her look stupid” came the reply. “And did they succeed?” I added, to which came back a very firm “No”.

    Guess that was a tick in box for the FM.

  240. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny –

    We overlapped there.

    Thanks aplenty.

    Still don’t know if I will be required as chauffeur here, for this or that, but yes, thanks, fingers crossed, I’m definitely up for it and I’ll certainly take advantage of your kind offer if I can get on that ferry.

    Please send me your e-mail address and I’ll let you know whether or not I’ll make it.

    Hoots mon!


  241. Robert Peffers says:

    @One_Scot says: 9 February, 2017 at 8:47 pm:

    “That’s the thing about the over 65’s. The last time they voted ‘No’ they thought they were voting for the status quo,”

    Bloody hell! Not another numptie with poor thinking skills?

    Are you really that bloody stupid that you imagine these older folks are all befuddled old suffers from dementia?

    Who the hell are you to tell them why they voted why they did? Use what little brains you were born with to work out that just being of an older generation does not predispose anyone to vote in a certain manner.

    It is not hard to figure out that the reason the unionists have a higher than average older demographic. There is nothing strange about it.

    In the past Scotland had three main parties and just a tiny few SNP people who were regarded as very dangerous antisocial militant people who blew up pillar boxes and stole Stones of Destiny and had links to militant groups like the SLA.

    Times changed through a lot of hard work and persistence and people began to see the SNP in a different light. Especially such as Winnie Ewing who won great respect in both Westminster and then in the EU parliament and Margo McDonald who also won great respect.

    So the SNP began to win over more followers and along came such as Alex Salmond and other top notch political brains and the party kept on growing.

    So there were now three main parties and the SNP. So even then the unionist parties had a greater ratio of older members.

    As the SNP grew and the others shrank the age demographic obviously meant that the older unionist parties would go on getting an average older demographic while the SNP’s demographic kept getting younger on average.

    Being older does not predispose people to be unionists but a shrinking party membership means that the average ages of party members will continue to become older.

    Another way to show that effect is that growing memberships mean more younger members are becoming members of the SNP than are joining the unionists. While parties that are declining will obviously have an older age group.

    I’m in my eighties now – perhaps I should go off and join the Labour party just because I’m older and some folks think I’m supposed to do that because I’m so old.


  242. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr (10.52) –

    ‘All you OLD bastards and ENGLISH bastards better fuck off from Scotland or vote YES next time. Your not welcome here even if you are ma granny!’

    You’re too much of a gentleman to state it outright, but that has been the main plank of ‘Rock’s argument on here for, oooh, years now. The longer-toothed among us are deaf to his repetitive pish, but that doesn’t mean he lacks influence with new readers. His presence here is toxic. In the last week, particularly the last few days, I can’t be the only regular reader who switched-off completely, thus missing valuable contributions from other commenters.

    I find it astonishing that he hasn’t been bagged, but it’s not my site, not my shout, and Rev Stu must have his own reasons for allowing this blatantly phoney ‘nationalist’ to pollute threads with his monomaniacal and vindictive shite.

  243. uno mas says:

    Our gallant representatives in HOC performing “Ode to Joy” was featured on the main RTVE1 news broadcast here in Spain tonight.

    Nearly choked on my San Miguel!


    Kudos to whoever came up with that.

    It´s gone round the news broadcasts of all the other European nations apparently.

  244. scunner says:

    Well that’s about as much as I can take of tonight’s QT.

    Brexiteer central and Dimblebum the opposite of an impartial host.

    Glad we’re getting out of “The stupid EU” says an obvious cretin, to massive cheers.
    I have a limit and they reached it in under 25mins.

  245. ScottieDog says:

    Was down the borders earlier visiting someone in the BGH.
    The TV was on in the background – and I think it was the Cumbria regional news. I heard the reporter at the Scottish parliament refer to ‘Nicola’s army of nationalists’. Involuntarily I said out loud “is anyone actually listening to this crap”
    The reply I heard was that folk found it comforting.
    To which I replied “in the same way as nurse ratchet”

  246. Gary45% says:

    Bob Mack@10.39.
    If any Wingers have access to you tube, simply type in “Palestine Occupation”
    the truth via the internet is slowly getting into the mainstream.
    The British Empire were involved with giving away Palestinian land “which is now the most serious injustice for a nation”, the Empire had NO RIGHT to give away another countries land.
    Zionist Israel is guilty of war crimes and “well…. the list is endless” thanks to the pathetic excuse of Westminster and the Zionist control of America.
    As I said watch you tube, the truth hurts when you see what’s actually happening.
    Any wingers in Glasgow on a Saturday round about lunch time. Go and speak to Margaret or John from the Glasgow Palestine Human Rights Campaign, they are normally outside All saints shop, in Buchannan Street.
    Don’t bother with the so called “Friends of Israel” they are Zionist spies “oh YES seriously”, they also have a stall set up, speak to Margaret she will set you straight with the truth about the situation in Palestine, and the so called Friends of Israel.

  247. Legerwood says:

    K1 @ 10.13

    Yhank you. Done it.

  248. Lenny Hartlet says:

    Yesindy2ref, can u tell a wummin organised it? I better get somebody to tape it for me 🙂
    Ian B sent u an email, let me know via O/T if u ain’t received it.

  249. Lenny Hartley says:

    bob Mack, agree with you, however it’s our get out clause if they don’t agree to Referendum, we will be legally able under International Law to hold one without Westminsters permission.

    I’m sure our European friends won’t desert us either.

  250. Robert Peffers says:

    @call me dave says: 9 February, 2017 at 8:52 pm:

    “@Scot Finlayson
    Thanks for the excellent set of links. Saw some of it as it happened but they are well worth another look.
    Better second time round.”

    I’ve been pushing that fact for some time, Call ne Dave

    ” … We have a good set of representatives fighting our cause in WM.”

    Aye! That fact.

    I was getting sick of people on Wings complaining that the SNP were not doing this that or the other but I knew that they were working their socks off at Holyrood, at Westminster at Brussels and in local councils all over Scotland.

    It is not their fault that the Westminster Unionists are suppressing them everywhere. Now people are seeing how the Westminster system is suppressing them, how the Westminster owned media misreports them and how the unionist parties stand shoulder to shoulder to squeeze them out.

    Who would have thought a generation ago that we would see Tory/Labour coalition local councils or even Tory/Labour/LibDem/independent coalition councils with the SNP the actual biggest single party in opposition?

    Glad to see that many Wingers are realising the truth. The SG/SNP can send out press reports till they bruise their typing fingers but they cannot force the media to publish them or even publish them without negative spin.

    Thing is we can see the media in all its guises slowly dying out as methods of imparting truth and information. There are none now that can be trusted to carry the truth.

    Mind you a nice lady delivered to my cottage today the latest copy of Kelty’s, “The Grist”.

    Here’s a link :-


  251. call me dave says:


    YUP! It’s a shambles all shouty stuff and most of those trying to make a reasonable point against Brexit or helping refugee kids or sending aid abroad, from the panel or from within the audience, are being harangued by other audience members.

    Dimbleby (neutral) hopeless as chair. Aye right!
    Oh starting on ENHS now I’m off too!

    Pretty scary stuff…time to get out of this union.

  252. K1 says:

    Good stuff Legerwood 😉

  253. lumilumi says:

    It’s all so callous. Wreck the national health service by underfunding it, have the rich right-wing media barons owned MSM press decrying “scandals”, introduce privatisation for “efficiency”… supposedly better care…

    Private health care companies have enough money to make nice ads, to make them seem caring, but what they really want is to make money out mainly healthy people, with maybe small bouts of ill health. They don’t want to care for anybody with a chronic or a serious illness – there’s no profit in that. They don’t want to invest money on medical research. They just want to leech on everybody else’s research and knowledge, and hide their companies and profits in tax havens.

    I might be naive, old-fashioned or whatever, but to my mind, having a non-profit national health service is the best way to go. Health is a human right, it should not be up for sale.

    Privatisation of the health service (or any other public service) means it’ll cost more because the private provider has to add a bit for their profit.

    Like, how difficult is this to understand?

  254. Thepnr says:


    Sorry to be a pedant but it was Nurse Ratched though I would have preferred Retched mind you.

    Here she is at “Medicine Time”. Mind we must all keep watching the telly and taking ours like good little boys.

    Line up, get in line boys and take what we give you.

  255. One_Scot says:

    Robert you really do need to get a grip and chill out, it was a general comment regarding the results from the resent poll that stated around 75% of over 65’s would vote ‘No’.

    And just a wee tip, just because you have a chip on your shoulder about being old, that is no reason to be abusive to other people.

  256. HandandShrimp says:

    Saw on Facebook that the Herald has run with the Mail’s drivel about some Tory twit of a student in Cambridge burning a £20 note in front of a homeless person is tangentially not quite related to Nicola.

    I guess if the Herald had not jumped the shark a while back this would be a seminal moment. The ignominy of being sub Daily Mail. The Herald used to be a paper of weight and substance. Is the paper so bereft of talent it has to prostitute itself like this? Dear God?

    Also trying to work out how many degrees of separation there are between Nicola and this person makes my head hurt. I strongly suspect that they are not related at all.

  257. Tackety Beets says:

    Aye Robert as Marie Says it’s a sair fecht !

    Thanks Ian Brotherhood for the old VT of QT , remember it first time round.

    I’m now one of the Aul Fellars here and used to get into bother from my wife on a Thursday for staying up past her bedtime to watch Robin Day .

    Hope you all have a great gathering in Arran .

  258. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob MACK says: 9 February, 2017 at 9:44 pm:

    “Robert, I sense a change in your mood tonight. Firstly, the Supreme Court studiously avoided making a ruling on sovereignty. They inferred rather than stated that Scotlands elected representatives carried it with them into Parliament, and thus it was expressed. That has not been challenged.”

    I know that, Bob Mack. You know that Bob Mack. But as far as the Westminster Establishment and in particular the de facto Prime Minister of England and the Speaker & Deputy Speaker goes the Supreme Court just gave then Carte Blanche to not only ignore Scots MPs but everything to do with Scotland.

    Let’s face it, Westminster has ignored the law of Scotland since long before there was a United Kingdom.

    Far as I can see they are intent upon continuing to do so.

    In fact the Supreme Court itself is an illegal English device to negate Scottish law and sovereignty.

    There is only one thing now that can reassert Scottish sovereignty and that is the sovereign people of Scotland reclaiming it for themselves. I hope it will be with the support of our friends in the European Parliament.

  259. Legerwood says:

    Cuilean says: 9 February, 2017 at 5:55 pm:

    “Annoyingly, it’s the ‘No’ voting over-65 age group which benefit the most from the SNP’s redoubtable defence of our Scottish NHS!”

    “Sometimes I think to hell with the old bastards.”

    I am getting really fed up with people blaming old people for voting NO. Have you ever considered why they voted NO? Have you ever looked at them as people with concerns and responsibilities? Have you ever thought what they have experienced in their long lives and that, because of these experiences, they might not be an easy ‘sell’ for the idea of independence and you FAILED to make the case that would persuade them?

    People in their 60s and perhaps even early 70s probably still have elderly parents to care for. They may have grandchildren to look after while parents work. Or even have grandchildren for whom they are actually the carer. In other words they are not leading a life of selfish, hedonistic idleness that many on here ascribe to them but one that has responsibilities and they have to carefully consider those responsibilities before making any decision about independence.

    Those in their 70s, 80s and 90s have lived through war and the Great Depression. They will have seen their parents struggle and their grandparents worry about whether they have enough to bury them. They may have been children when they saw all this but it made a lasting impression, even if they were not aware of it at the time, and that colours the decisions they make now.

    They have had a lifetime of politicians of all hues coming round promising the sun, the moon and the stars and then watched them disappear never to be seen again until they want their vote at the next election. They have watched the Soviet Union fall and saw that some of those who suffered most in the immediate aftermath were the elderly. They have also seen a run on a British Bank – Northern Rock – and other banks teetering on the brink. Something they never thought they would see in their lifetime.

    Did YES do enough to reassure them about these very legitimate concerns?

    All they have is their pension. Some perhaps more of a pension than others but none can go back and do it all again if for any reason it all goes belly up. And none of them know how long their money has to last them or what the demands will be on their income – rising fuel costs, rising food costs. Therefore they are understandably cautious.

    Did YES do enough to reassure them about these very legitimate concerns?

    Therefore for all sorts of reasons they would take a lot of convincing. That they voted NO in such numbers suggests that YES did not convince them and from the way they are being talked about by some posters on here it does not seem things will be any better the next time around.

    Start looking at them as people. And stop using such a broad brush with which to tar all of them.

  260. Thepnr says:

    Nurse Ratched is described in Wiki as “A cold heartless Tyrant”.

    Not as good though as Thatcher or May at playing the part. She was just acting from a book of fiction. Those two were for real.

  261. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 9 February, 2017 at 10:19 pm:

    @ Robert Peffers 10.02 Tammy Doff tae you Mr . When you post a put down you dont miss an hit the wa, us auld wrinklies keep on keeping on lol.

    Aye! Ronnie. I’m a crack shot wi a rifle tae.

  262. Thepnr says:


    Yes I saw that Daily Mail tweet about a non-story and replied.

    “He is believed to be the Nephew of the First Minister’s sister-in-laws ex husband”

    “Believed to be” very funny, what if he’s not?
    Sister-In-Law’s EX Husband haha now you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    Who could possibly want people like these churnlists writing your news?

  263. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: Archiving…

    I’ve posted this info at least a couple of times in the past year or so but here goes again.

    The biggest problem here goes like this…
    You see a page, say at, that you feel should be archived. So you go to and paste the url of the page into the box. accepts your submission and archives the page. All is well with the world.

    The problem arises when,
    a) the “live” page is edited an hour later and,
    b) someone decides to archive the page half an hour after that. will tell you that the page was archived two hours ago and give you a choice – accept the already existing archive or create a new one. You MUST accept the existing archive because, if you elect to save a new archive, you will OVERWRITE the original, unedited version that was originally saved, thereby losing it.

    2. It is more secure to use the Internet Archive, which has been on the go since at least the 1990s, to archive stuff. The benefit of the Internet Archive is that it does not overwrite pages it has previously captured. It just keeps them there to be browsed.

    As an example, go to:-
    and paste
    into the search box and hit return/enter.

    You’ll get a page which has a calendar at the top, showing that The Herald has been archived since 2009. Hover over any of the “spikes” in that calendar and click and you will get a display showing (blue-circled) all the captures for that year.

    And to make it even easier, here’s the link that takes you to all the Herald captures.

  264. ian m says:

    In defence of Cuileans’ comments about the old folk (sorry it took me a while tae get out o ma chair and then find ma specs, somebody put them in the fridge? mind you there is a nice kipper in there fur ma tea, where was I ? oh aye
    The kipper looks braw, but it was a strange place to find my specs don’t you think?
    Well i am back in ma chair noo and fur us older voters, Scotlands NHS is going to stay the same so I will vote the SNP because thae English have sold theirs away.
    I will just have a wee nap noo

  265. Robert Peffers says:

    @Marie Clark says: 9 February, 2017 at 10:44 pm:

    ” … Nae wunner yer mad though. It fair makes the blood bile some o’ these daft young whipersnappers tarring us auld yins wi the same brush.”

    Oh! Marie, I’m not angry. Which is why I dinna hit the wa’.

    What is annoying is that the wrong conclusions are being drawn from fairly plain facts. This is thus counter productive and only makes the slim chances of winning over life long unionists who will only have their resolve strengthened by such things.

    It should really be quite clear to people that just being from an older age group cannot predispose anyone to be anything other than in that particular age group.

    To put that another way, you point out some of us have been active campaigners since our youth. That means we were attempting to win over not only people of our then own age but old folks now long dead.

    It should not take too much thought to figure out that as the unionist parties have been strong but are now getting weaker that their average ages must be getting older as the younger Scots are flocking to the indy supporting parties. The idea that age is the factor that makes unionists into unionist is simply not true.

  266. heedtracker says:

    Nice/awful Ligger Neil late night BBC Politics show weekly round up of the week in Westminster, usual no mention of anything SNP anywhere, for the whole week. Another example of just how much of a tory twat the Ligger really is. At least he’s a consistent BBC tory twat. New hair dye colour Ligger style though, always worth a look, kind of reddish, bronzy, ochre maybe.

  267. lumilumi says:

    While at it, I’ll do another rant.

    I see a lot of Scottish independence supporters demeaning the “unelected” list MSPs. Murdo, Tompkins etc.

    The question is: Do you want proportional representation (PR) or are you so entrenched in the UK-style “democracy” with its FPTP that you want to recreate it? Be a mini-me UK “mother of parliaments”? Huh?

    Alex Salmond might’ve got a FPTP seat to the new Scottish Parliament, but Nicola Sturgeon got hers in on the list.

    If you reject Westminster-style pseudo-democracy FPTP, you need to learn new political ideas. Like proportional representation (something we embraced 111 years ago in my country), which means fair representation to all political parties.

    Tories, Labour and LibDems are all a bit confused, but true blue yoonists, the SNP honeymoon should be over. But events are overtaking us all – SNP has had intelligence and good analysts, but even they are a bit amazed at what’s happening.

  268. heedtracker says:

    lumilumi says:
    10 February, 2017 at 12:19 am
    While at it, I’ll do another rant.

    I see a lot of Scottish independence supporters demeaning the “unelected” list MSPs. Murdo, Tompkins etc.

    But these tory twats always like to say “most Scots” all the time, especially my Slovene girlfriend, as in most Scots dont want ref 2, hate the EU, love the UK, love Ruth, dont want to shove my head down a loo etc. My Slovene girlfriend came about 4th in Glasgow, with about 400% less votes behind the SNP guy.

  269. CameronB Brodie says:

    I haven’t read Kirsty Strickland’s attack(?) on the Mis-Reporting Scotland billboard campaign but here are some thoughts.

    The BBC performs a significant role in shaping public opinion, with very little exposure given to real critical analysis of their performance. The conventions in perceprion they establish, need to be challenged in the most robust, peaceful fashion possible.

    Power in society, economy, and mentality: Towards a semiotic theory of power


    It is a well-known fact that power is closely connected with signs, but usually this connection is thought to be “after the fact”: signs representing a power whose origin could be understood in non-semiotic terms. In this paper, a different view is introduced: power is an inherently semiotic phenomenon, which can be analyzed with concepts of cultural semiotics. To reach this aim, the three areas of culture defined in Roland Posner’s theory of cultural semiotics are taken as basis for definitions of three types of power: power of position, power of disposition, and power of interpretation. These main types of power are delimitated from each other, further differentiated and carefully examined in their semiotic as well as sociological dimensions. The conclusion is reached that the full range of power phenomena can be analyzed with the help of cultural semiotics.

    Basic Tasks of Cultural Semiotics

    Media Theory and Semiotics: Key Terms and Concepts

  270. CameronB Brodie says:

    And breath. Hello there. This might seem paranoid but I can’t help worry you might think I was having a pop at you a while back. I wasn’t and sorry if I’ve caused you any upset.

  271. Thepnr says:

    lumilumi has a very fair point it’s either proportional representation or it’s not. The yoons between them did get nearly half the Scottish electorates vote in 2016 and got nearly half the seats.

    Is that fair? I can’t think of a better way to represent ALL of Scotland’s vote.

    Can’t change the system just cause it doesn’t suit your party, now who might complain about that?

  272. Sandy says:

    List MSPs don’t represent constituents. Most appear to represent themselves. Mountain, Fraser, etc.

  273. crazycat says:

    @ Thepnr

    One difficulty is that there is PR and PR; I’m not sure which is the more prevalent worldwide, but there can be closed lists or open lists.

    I much prefer the latter, where voters can put the slate of candidates in order, so that, for instance, Tories don’t inevitably get Murdo or Tomkins just because the party hierarchy likes them.

    Of course, if Tory voters do like those two, the rest of us still have to endure them!

  274. James Barr Gardner says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    9 February, 2017 at 11:51 pm
    Saw on Facebook that the Herald has run with the Mail’s drivel about some Tory twit of a student in Cambridge burning a £20 note in front of a homeless person is tangentially not quite related to Nicola.

    Well I guess dunderheid student is’nae in the Bullingdon Club as it’s £50 to get burnt not £20.

    Nae mention of Boris and his other tory chums.

    Aye you’ll no see that on the BBC.

  275. Meg merrilees says:

    Just spoken with a politically aware 80 year old friend who lives in Beverley – would vote YES if she could,.

    She was lamenting the appalling state of the NHS in England and the fact that the government seem to be denying that it is as bad as reported in the news. It is being made up apparently.

    She then told me how shocked she was to hear about all those schools in Edinburgh that had almost collapsed on pupils and had been built so badly – how could the Scottish Government let that happen?

    So I told her!

    Even more shocked!

    I then asked her if she had been following the Brexit debate in Parliament and she said that they were only hearing about America and virtually nothing about Europe.
    She hadn’t heard about Alex’s remark about the bill being railroaded through and she definitely hadn’t heard about our MP’s singing /whistling the Ode to Joy.

    All links gone off in an e-mail to her tonight.

    Selective reporting!

    Methinks the BBC is mis-reporting Britain…

  276. yesindyref2 says:

    Seeing the latest to come out about “Scotland will join the back of the queue”, Jacqueline Minor is the outgoing head of representation for the European Commission in the UK, and it seems to me she’d be a good catch for the Brexit negotiating team, if she plans to leave the Commission as well.

    I wonder if that’s on the horizon? Something to keep an eye on anyway.

  277. heedtracker says:

    Thepnr, yes but we’re trying to turn people away from the dark side. With every opportunity planet toryboy gets, they’re either scrapping constituencies that threaten their power, or they cheat, gerrymander and worse. Look at the Lords, more Lords than MP’s or the how and why over 10 million citizens never vote. All of its rigged for tory rule. Fcuk being nice about PR Holyrood,

  278. Thepnr says:

    @crazycat & heedtracker

    I never said it was nice or right. I said it was fair, well in proportion to votes and number of elected representatives it was!

    I don’t though think it is a good system as the voter doesn’t have a clue who could end up representing them even within the same party. The point is though this has been debated for many many many years and we still don’t have a solution.

    Mine would be be make it much smaller, as in a single council ward size by PR, then the sum of all those wards in a constituency decide the winner?

    Now that is proportional. Mibbee LOL

    If your doing nothing else, I’ve put a couple just now on the jukebox over on Off Topic that I doubt anyone could dislike 🙂

  279. crazycat says:

    @ Thepnr

    I borrowed a book from the library just after the AV referendum, which had been published during the campaign.

    It described all the systems in use in democracies at present, with pros and cons for each – someone whose priority is to have a geographical link might prefer FPTP and not care about proportionality, whereas someone who was very concerned about proportionality might be prepared to sacrifice local connections.

    It was quite interesting; I concluded that “fairness” is not an objective concept and that I am not sure what my preferences are. It’s far easier, I think, to identify flaws than to suggest a solution.

  280. Molly says:

    Pete, you buy the building, you pay for its maintenance,you pay for the equipment, you pay for the training of the staff, you pay for the IT, you pay for the services then you sell the contract and they take over the running.

    You’ve ( or all of us actually) have paid for everything then we pay handsomely for them to run the service. If it fails, we bail them out .

    Look up a company called you’ll get the gist

  281. Meg merrilees says:

    (Can someone please archive it?)

    This is an article in the National about the Glasgow Sound engineer who was supposed to be deported on monday night – thanks to those who did sign the petition ( total – 4,050 signatures last night) on
    He is still here and various MP’s and MSP’s are fighting for him to remain.

    Sadly he was moved from Dungavel to a centre near Heathrow and will not be able to get married on Saturday, but he is still in the UK.

    The immigration office don’t believe that he and his fiancee are in a genuine relationship because they are not living together – but they are Christians and are waiting till they are married.

    Pathetic government!!!

  282. Thepnr says:


    I truly have no idea what would be “fairest”. I only know this though in Scotland the results were pretty fair overall, roughly 50:50.

    In the UK elections hahaha, nothing near fair. If the same system was in operation throughout the UK then we wouldn’t be heading for the EU exit door.

    Go to Off Topic and watch my songs you’ll either laugh or cry 🙂

    Join in and give us another!

  283. Thepnr says:

    @Meg merrilees

    I read that today in the National and noticed that the 4000 odd signatures were used as an argument by his lawyer so well done you as you may have helped.

    Here’s the arhive link.

  284. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    The “back of the queue” thing really has got to be nailed. It’s the same storyline that Nanny Theresa deploys, an arrogant presumption that if we became independent we would somehow automatically be ejected and have to apply to be re-admitted.

    If we are already “in”, and become independent while already “in”, how can we suddenly be “out”, as if by magic?

    How on earth can everyone’s EU citizenship be arbitrarily annulled simply because we participate in a legally-constituted referendum and become independent? Especially considering that non-EU East Germans could somehow immediately become EU citizens upon German re-unification?

    The unionists will attempt to push this “alternative fact” for all its worth during indyref2, so it must be exposed as complete tosh toute de suite. I hope someone in the SG or elsewhere is doing their constitutional homework on this right now.

    (Oh, and by the way, in researching this propaganda effort, I stumbled upon a complete loony EU-hating website pushing this line for all its worth at

    Anyone happen to know who’s behind this particular espece de merde?)

  285. Thepnr says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    That website is extremely professional IMHO. Looks great, all the links work.

    Unfortunately just below Subscribe it says “Join 58 other subscribers”. No cunt reads it then!

    Wonder if that will be 50,800 by tomorrow? LOL

  286. K1 says:

    So much for the xenophobes ‘taking back control. The people of England were sold lies heaped upon lies about ‘immigration’. Every opportunity for the MSM to highlight the reality of our immigration policies and the ‘false narrative’ that was punted for literally years focusing on immigration as ‘being the problem’ was just a smokescreen for xenophobic, right wing fascist bastards to get their agenda into mainstream public consciousness.

    Gullible, naive and utterly stupidly the ‘Great English public’ bought into a false and fake narrative. They will riot in their own streets to ‘rid themselves’ of ‘foreigners’, because Brexit sure as hell isn’t going to deliver that ‘wet dream’ for them:

    The ‘critics’ and those who supported Brexit may well complain this is just ‘one’ report, but this is just the start of the real and true information that reveals the hollowed out fantasies of those who seek to rationalise ‘irrational’ fears sold to them by means of propaganda, hell slap it into them:

    ‘Theresa May’s attempt to reclaim control of UK borders after Brexit could reduce annual migration from the EU by just 50,000 – one-sixth of the current overall annual figure, according to new research.

    The projection of a “vanishingly small reduction” is one of the first attempts to estimate how likely labour market demand, and the government’s planned new controls, could reduce the number of migrants coming to the UK. Reduction in immigrant numbers has been repeatedly cited in polls as the chief reason voters backed leaving the European Union.’

    Brexit will cause ‘vanishingly small’ fall in net migration – report

  287. Thepnr says:

    Hey listen, check out that website with 58 subscribers. There’s been serious money spent on that. Weird, their mission statement: reports on the latest news sourced from the European Union, and European Commission. As the EU Parliament works towards a Federal super state, and New World Order, the global elites strive for greater governmental control, and draw more power to the centre. Are they working towards what could be an eventual one world government under the United Nations?

    And that’s it lol.

  288. lumilumi says:

    @ CameronB – you never had a pop at me ever, so stop worrying! 😀 I’ve been away from WoS comments due to boring real life reasons, not something you might’ve said.

    @thepnr (and others) about PR proportional representation democracy. I might be biased, brain-washed, because my country does it pretty well. Each party puts up a list, in alphabetical order, and we vote for a geezer. Our votes rank the candidates within a party. The various political parties try to push their candidates but they’re not always succesful.

    OK, we start from the idea that a parliament should reflect the will of the people, yeah? FPTP won’t. It polarises, simplifies, elections to one or the other, smaller parties don’t stand a chance. It’ll produce Westminster-type parliaments where a party has an absolute majority in parliament with ~35% of the popular vote, yeah?

    Holyrood (the Scottish Parliament) was designed by UK Labour to be fairly PR, with the regional list system. They never thought the SNP would be the biggest party and form the administration and begin to do things for Scotland.

    PR list systems, especially as it’s done in Scotland, have their weaknesses. Yeah, Tompkins, Murdo Fraser or whomever are rejected at FPTP elections but get in because – and this is important – enough people vote for their Tory party. If about 20-25% Scots like what the Tories offer, they should have a voice in parliament. It’s just annoying that their minority voice gets so much media coverage.

    Back to PR democracy, which is so hard to understand by any UK, even Scottish, people.

    PR democracy isn’t this one or the other against each other, the British way. It’s several parties vying for power and negotiating with several others. Because all PR parliaments are “hung” and parties have to work together. (Something British establisment figures find distasteful.)

    The problem is that even indy-minded Scots have to get their heads around to a new political system, and I’m not seeing it. All too many people bark or whine about “unelected” Tory list MSPs.

    Helloooo! Wake up! Nearly a third are “Yoonists” and they are people who need converting. Telling them they’re stupid, or bigoted, or whatever, won’t turn them.

  289. K1 says:

    ‘As the EU Parliament works towards a Federal super state, and New World Order, the global elites strive for greater governmental control, and draw more power to the centre. Are they working towards what could be an eventual one world government under the United Nations?’

    Ah this sounds very ‘American’, also isn’t that bill presented by 6 republicans about to be heard in their senate to abolish America’s involvement in the UN? It’s called ‘American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2017’.

    That would fit with the aims of that site’s agenda as they are of course ‘inferring’ the UN is part of the great conspiracy.

    Just a thought…

  290. K1 says:

    Had a look it’s actually ‘UKipian’…easy mistake tae make as it’s mair or less the same ‘political mentality’ at work in UKipLand as well as USland noo.

  291. yesindyref2 says:

    I think PR’s OK. Generally I’d prefer to see candidates more restricted to the area they’re resident in though. Keep them local!

  292. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    O/T “TheUnitUK” appears to be a one-man anti-EU dog-and-pony show run by a Peter Brown. He appears on Twitter as @PaderBrown and seems to be a big fan of Farage/Wilders/Le Pen, and definitely doesn’t like Nicola and Scottish independence (surprise, surprise).

    Just another example of what has crawled out from under a stone in England these days, alas.

  293. DerekM says:

    @ K1

    You mean the NWO?

    Well the trumper is not one of them,big sign on the door no trumps allowed gang.

    Soros and a few other nazi`s inside American power and business are the ones trying to do that buy owning the banks,politicians and media and the Donald is no happy as he wants to own them.

    As for the UN being involved certain factions are,if there is one lesson to be learned it is that these criminals can buy their way into the corridors of power if the people are not vigilant.

    Top folks in the NWO from the UK tombstone tony,bomber brown and his side kick flipper,they even instigated the financial collapse for their NWO buddies the Clinton`s and the Bush skull and bones nazi`s.

    Stopping the EU from functioning has always been up there on their to do list,Ukraine was set on fire to stop the EU trading with Russia and opening trade routes for China through Russia into the EU.

    And the stupid brexit crowd thinks the EU are just going to roll over and play dead after finding the treacherous snake in their midst the UK,i think not we Scots have a saying it goes like this brace yourself.

  294. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s the problem with all this research stuff which we do – and loads of others, reading, postings stuff – we find out too much and wish we hadn’t maybe. Too many upturned stones. Wasn’t it great when the world was made of roll and slice, yellow cheese and crackers, mince and tatties, peaches and cream or at least apple pie and custard, a wee peatie and couple of pints after a good healthy walk up a hill and a zig-zag run down again.

    Then someone would say something and we’d be like “Barry Torque-Wrench? Who’s that?”. Oh well, won’t be long now!

  295. Ken500 says:

    Scotland has a UK Tory Gov for which the majority do not vote. Electoral fraud was committed in 31Constitiencies. Three leaders of minorities Parties in Scotland campaign and lie for a Party elsewhere. Scottish taxpayers are paying tax under a Barnett Formula which is fraudulent. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Democracy does not exist in Scotland. Scotland is outvoted 10 to 1 in Westminster. Scotland is not treated equally or fair within the UK. No taxation without representation. Or a free and balanced Press. Q

    Scotland has UK Governance which does not support democracy. Holyrood has a political system that does not support democracy. The wishes of the electorate are not fairly or equally taken into account.

  296. MJT says:

    If we’re to win the war and get our independence we’re gonna need everyone, or nearly everyone, on the Yes side to up their game just a wee bit.

    Some folks might disagree but I think the support and activism of both the English folks and the older yins who support Yes are key to us getting over the line. It does us nae guid at all to alienate or push away or insult folks who might be, nay will be an essential part of the whole campaign.

    Just about everyone I know voted Yes. There’s no many folks left for me to persuade. And…i work in care homes and I can say for certain I’m not the best person to talk to anyone who bides in such a place in an effort to enlighten or lead to a Yes vote.

    Aye aye, a bunch of English people voted No, a bunch of old yins voted No…so fuckin what? Let’s learn from it. Or did we already learn from it. What to do better? Christ if we had 1000 Peffers on the books our troubles in this district would be over. Maybe we have 1000 Peffers and we don’t even know it.

    Get a crack squad of English folks full of knowledge and wisdom with the right demeanour to talk to similar folks, with their reasonable doubts and fears and concerns. It’s a noble challenge.

    There’s some big pies we can take big bites out of, if we’re smart. We are all on the same side, regardless of where you’re from or what your Birth Certificate says…we win and lose as one. But, how we divvie up the work…that’s no small matter I think.

    I mentioned it once before. I heard an 80 yr old gal schooling her pal in the care home all about Independence and the oil and the best future for her grandbairns and she was doing a fine job. I chimed in a little but more as a nosey passer by than anything. This woman was doing fine on her own.

    A lot of protest songs have the same message. Power to the people etc…but some songs are accoustic, some are stirring some are soothing…and some are dirty loud noisy punk songs and some are hip hop and some are pounding dance songs. The message is the same but the mode of delivery is different.

  297. Nana says:

    NHS hospitals now have ‘corridor nurses’ because of overfull A&E departments

    Fears of ‘two-tier NHS’ as GPs allow fee-paying patients to jump the queue

    Rupert Murdoch secretly ‘sat in’ on Michael Gove’s interview with Donald Trump

  298. Nana says:

    An EU Minister Told Theresa May To Stop Lying About Freedom Of Movement

    Damning report attacks firms which built fault-ridden Scottish schools

    Brian Feeney: Ireland will be partitioned more thoroughly than ever before


  299. Macart says:

    Just catching up on news channel hopping and caught some Tory non entity talking the most awful bollocks on the subject of the speaker Mr Bercow. Clearly one of the chaps out to oust Mr Bercow he waffled on for five minutes waxing lyrical about a lack of faith because the speaker is supposedly inconsistent in his approach to visiting dignitaries and what an awful shock it was to his system waffle, waffle.

    The killer blow came when chuntering on about the speaker’s role in staying above bias or political favourites. Raises a smile at best of times, but when he described the last few days debates and the actions of Mr Bercow’s stand ins as above reproach and exceptional in this area, even in the heated subject under discussion, the coffee and toast went everywhere.

    So, the treatment of the UK’s third largest party by representation and membership, our representation by the by, over the Brexit debate by Mr Hoyle and indeed the hon. members in that house?

    Totally unbiased and appropriate apparently.

  300. Capella says:

    The DHondt voting system was set up by Labour to prevent a majority. It is not typical because it gives too much emphasis to the list component. Other European countries have a smaller emphasis on the list. Sorry I can’t find the original reference for this ATM.

    But after the 2011 SNP landslide the faults in the system were suddenly revealed to a horrified Severin Carrell and Prof. Curtice. Unfortunately, as Derek Mackay points out, changing the voting system is reserved to Westminster.

  301. heedtracker says:

    D’Hondt means that voters do not get the candidate they want to vote for. It was specifically chosen to weaken Scottish democracy and Scotland, to get anyone in that was unionist. Look at the SNP MP’s in Westminster now, compared to their predecessors. They are of entirely different calibre of politician. Or why does old Crabuncle get far more BBC airtime than any SNP MP?

  302. frogesque says:

    … And on BBC Breakfast: Oh look! A dolphin!

    Actually a porpoise but never mind.

  303. Sinky says:

    Well done to architect Malcolm Fraser on BBC GMS at 8.15 am on being the first person to come out with a six letter word in connection the Edinburgh school buildings scandal… LABOUR who at government level through Gordon Brown forced councils to use the Tory PFI / PPP finance model to build schools and hospitals.

    Whle the whitewash report said the financial model was not responsible it is clear that financial short cuts were taken including contractors self certifying their own building works.

  304. Nana says:


    Folk not happy with the bbc’s reporting of PFI. As always covering up for labour incompetence.

    G A Ponsonby has been tweeting this morning

  305. DerekM says:

    @ yesindyref2

    Aye there is something in the saying ignorance is bliss.

    Until you find sudden enlightenment just before they toss your ass in a furnace because you are unfit to be a slave and have no productivity value.

    The scary thing is all the chess pieces are being moved into position in the US,if you check out the FEMA camps and the militarization of the state police you could be looking at Germany pre 1939.

  306. Black Joan says:

    Someone will be in trouble at BBC UKOK radio HQ this morning.

    6a.m news broadcast led with “Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has admitted that NHS unacceptable”.

    In later versions “admitted” had been censored. Replaced with “acknowledged” or “said”.

  307. scunner says:


    Independent Scotland meets criteria for EU membership, says top official

    So what does the Express lead with this morning?
    Blow/smackdown/slapdown/facekick for Sturgeon as (some Arsehole) Eurocrat states Scotland will go to back of queue/have to adopt Euro/get Spanish vetoed.

    Same shite different day.

  308. Big Jock says:

    With the recent story about Nicola Sturgeons distant non blood relative (Sic). Is there not a certain Royal Family with actual blood connections to some real fascists in the 1940s. Maybe it’s just me being silly!

  309. Proud Cybernat says:

    Deserting the sinking ship…

  310. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I used to watch Question Time all the way through. I often didn’t agree with the comments made, and couldn’t stand some of the panelists, but I watched it.

    However, since the decision to call the In/Out European referendum, its resolution and the subsequent Brexit kerfuffle, I have found it harder and harder to watch.

    The two arch Tory women on last night’s panel, that MP Perry, who isn’t even a household name in her own household and Ann Widdicombe, who went from never-was to has-been via Strictly, both needed slapping-down, hard, as they constantly talked-over everyone else.

    I lasted about ten minutes.

    I feel, Dumbledore has lost-it and should be replaced immediately. The question is, by whom? There is a distinct lack of talent and chutzpah among the ranks of present-day BBC talking heads.

  311. Nana says:


    Guardian, Telegraph, Scotsman all at it as well. Same soundbites being repeated over and over tells me the unionists are a bit feart.

  312. galamcennalath says:

    @Big Jock

    Nazis? Ironically from the Mail …

  313. Robert Kerr says:


    Glad you affirm that Labour set up the SP system to try to prevent SNP majorities EVER.

    The question we must ask is which other legislature has exactly this malign system?

    I do not think there is any other anywhere with the structure of constituency/list ratios set up as we have.

    It was deliberate! and is an negation of democracy.

    Now we have the Local elections coming up with a different system entirely. We have four systems. WM, SP, LA, EP. To confuse voters? Of course it is!

  314. Dr Jim says:

    My expert’s better than yours:
    The Yes side of the argument could put up a thousand experts to back up their case, the No side only have to put up one even if they’re complete and utter nobodies because the media will only publicise the one they want and the one they say is credible

    The expert said:
    It doesn’t matter what the expert said or doesn’t say, the media will print or say whatever they want the expert to have meant or cut out the bits they don’t want noticed

    Fake news:
    This is the media drive to discredit the internet so that only what they say counts

    Battered spouse syndrome:
    It’s taken 300 years to turn Scots into “Scotland the cowards” we’ve only had a few years to change that back into Scotland the normal people like everybody else in the world
    When anybody has been subjugated for a long period of time it’s not easy for them to answer back, so much so that many defend their oppressors because of the fear of retribution just as much as the fear of failure

    I want guarantees or ahm no daein it:
    That’s usually the attitude of someone who wants to make sure they don’t lose even if they know the cause is just

  315. Valerie says:

    Uh oh

    Stand by for Olympic style foaming.

    Buzzfeed – EU officials looking at how to fast track Scotland.

  316. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 10 February, 2017 at 2:14 am:

    “The “back of the queue” thing really has got to be nailed. It’s the same storyline that Nanny Theresa deploys, an arrogant presumption that if we became independent we would somehow automatically be ejected and have to apply to be re-admitted.”

    It isn’t hard to nail down, Robert.

    The point to make is that the queue of those seeking to join the EU is composed of states that wish to be EU members and give their citizens EU Citizenship. Their status does thus not compare with that of Scotland.

    So, the reason they are queued up is that they are applying to become EU members and their citizens to become EU citizens.

    However the better argument is that the EU would risk making itself totally irrelevant on the World stage.

    The EU’s raison d’être is to guarantee its member states their membership and hence its citizens an equally valid citizenship. This is what is behind Article 50 being the only way to leave the EU. The member state that wants out has to formally request to do so and there is no way to throw out a member state or individual citizens.

    Which is exactly why it exists. It is a union of European peoples who must all have equal European rights. They cannot be equal if they do not have equal rights.

    The UK does not have the right to remove any EU citizens right to EU citizenship. It thus can only remove their UK citizenship rights. If they remove the Scottish people’s UK citizens rights they are admitting that if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom then the United Kingdom no longer exists. The United Kingdom thus legally becomes just, “The Kingdom of England”.

    If it claims to be just the, “Country of England”, then it also loses Wales and N. Ireland for it admits the country of England is ruling over both Wales & N.I.

    As I’ve been making the point for a long time on Wings they are the de facto Parliament of the country of England but wrongly calling themselves The United Kingdom Parliament.

    Yet actually treating the Kingdom of Scotland as if it no longer exists and is just another England controlled country. They are about to be hoist with their own petard and the ones standing by with the match to light the fuse are the SG & the EU.

    However, the EU could decide to take away our EU citizenship but that will require them to introduce a new EU law/rule or legal mechanism that allows the EU to do so.

    By doing so the EU then loses its entire raison d’être if it no longer can guarantee its EU citizen’s equal EU citizen rights and it too could start to disintegrate.

  317. Robert Kerr says:

    After Brexit Ms, Minor will be out of a job!.

    What has been promised?

    By whom?

  318. Robert Peffers says:

    @lumilumi says: 10 February, 2017 at 2:52 am:

    “Our votes rank the candidates within a party. The various political parties try to push their candidates but they’re not always succesful.”

    That is the difference between your country and the United Kingdom, which, in the first place, is not a country.

    In the Holyrood system the political party draws up a list of who THEY choose. The voters have no say in who goes on that list.

    Neither does the voter get to vote for a particular list member – only for a party with a list that the party chose.

    In effect the political party is choosing the list candidate. The voter is only choosing the party who will choose the list MSP.

  319. Ian Brotherhood says:

    QT should be presented by Ant & Dec because they would provide balance, Ant always being on the left.


  320. Camz says:


    “For the likes of Jackie Bird to remain po-faced as she and her colleagues continually deliver constant bad news about our NHS speaks volumes.”

    She probably has private health cover. The so-called elites of the nation all do. In their eyes, the NHS is a party-political entity and tax black hole (not that most of them pay what they should in taxes).

    The nation could achieve so much more if they did away with all the tax loopholes.

  321. Robert Peffers says:

    @scunner says: 10 February, 2017 at 9:27 am:

    “Independent Scotland meets criteria for EU membership, says top official.”

    Well actually, according to the report, the EU official did NOT say that Scotland, “meets criteria”, it claims the official claimed that, “Scotland meets most criteria. Which claim, whether the official made it or not, is utter and complete lies.

    As Scotland has been a part of the EU since ever there has been an EU then Scotland not only meets ALL EU Criteria but her citizens are, and will under EU rules remain EU citizens.

    The EU has no rules/laws or legal mechanisms to remove EU citizens citizenship against their will.

    The United Kingdom is indeed the member state but the UK is neither a country nor a Unified State.

    It is exactly what its title says it is a, (bipartite), United Kingdom. Thus if one part of a bipartite partnership votes to remain and the other votes to leave the EU has a dilemma that only the EU can solve.

    It has only two choices. It allows the Kingdom of Scotland to remain and the Kingdom of England to go and retains Scotland as the legacy member state or it must introduce new rules that allow the EU to expel EU citizens against their will.

    In doing so it will thus totally destroys the entire raison d’être of the EU to be a European union of equal European states whose citizens are all equally European citizens.

    You cannot be an equal European citizen if the EU cannot guarantee and protect your citizenship.

  322. Robert Peffers says:

    @Big Jock says: 10 February, 2017 at 9:35 am:

    “Is there not a certain Royal Family with actual blood connections to some real fascists in the 1940s. Maybe it’s just me being silly!”

    Yer no bein’ silly, Big Jock.

  323. liz says:

    @pete that prog on BBC 2 re EU was out and out propaganda.

    Interviewing extreme right wing parties with little support and making out this was the attitude in Europe.

    Support for the EU has increased across Europe since Brexit.

    That pathetic attempt at ‘not being able to find a room’ in HQ was straight out of Farage and made her look like a fool.

    The Italy vote was not against the government but against power being centralised in Rome.
    The Italian regions have always been autonomous and they was never going to support that

  324. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 10 February, 2017 at 9:48 am:

    @Big Jock

    “Nazis? Ironically from the Mail …

    Prince Philip has family connections with the Nazi Party from pre-WWII Germany. His nephew, Prince Rainer von Hessen, whose mother is Prince Philip’s sister, discusses a private lunch with Adolf Hitler and her admiration for the Nazi leader in her memoires. Describing Hitler as “impressive” and a “charming and seemingly modest man.”

    Three of Prince Philip’s four sisters were married to Nazi officers. BTW: None were present at his wedding to the then future Queen Elizabeth in 1947. This was entirely due to their fascist links.

    There are photos from the 1937 funeral of one of Prince Philip’s sisters that show Prince Philip as a teenager surrounded by German officers, some of them giving the Nazi salute.

    The Sun newspaper has published photos taken from a 1933 film clip of the Queen, the late Queen Mother and the future King Edward VIII performing the Nazi salutes. Just for interest Buckingham Palace recently launched an investigation as to how the 17 a black and white film clip was leaked to the Sun newspaper.

    The truth is that King Edward VIII was forced to abdicate in 1936 because of his NAZI connections and not because of the trumped up story that he wanted to marry a divorcee.

    Who, by the way, the FBI files from the 1930s portray Wallis Simpson was a Nazi sympathiser. Duke Carl Alexander of Württemberg told the FBI she and leading Nazi Joachim von Ribbentrop had been lovers in London. In fact lots of the English aristocracy were NAZI supporters in WWII.

    One reason the USA were late in joining the Allied war efforts was that it was touch and go on what side they would join. There is a great deal of German descendants in the USA.

  325. Robert Peffers says:

    @Valerie says: 10 February, 2017 at 10:00 am:
    “Uh oh
    Stand by for Olympic style foaming.
    Buzzfeed – EU officials looking at how to fast track Scotland.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about it, Valerie.

    Let me put it this way for you.

    When the first boot drops the EU will be holding their collective breaths awaiting the other boot to drop.

    The first one will be the Article 50 request for the UK to leave the EU and the EU will be up to its ears in telling the UK. (a.k.a. the Parliament of England), there will be no deals never mind special deals. This is because if the UK gets a special deal there will not just be a queue of states wanting into the EU but a longer queue wanting the same, or better deals than the Uk/England or they too will be leaving. The EU as well as the UK will be under threat of disuniting.

    Then the second boot hits the floor – Scotland leaves the UK and tells the EU that if they allow Scottish EU citizens to be thrown out of the EU then the EU has lost its only reason to exist – that is to guarantee its citizens their citizenship and the EU sees quite a big chunk of EU assets walking away into the middle distance.

    All the EU need do is acknowledge that the UK is a bipartite union and Scotland remains as the legacy member state and, (on paper), everyone gets what it wants.

    The EU retains its integrity and it’s present membership but gets rid of the permeant thorn in its side that is the old UK. It does not need to change its rules. The UK/England gets out and Scotland continues as an independent country and EU member state.

    Everyone gets what they asked for and they are all happy – except England finds out that what they wanted was the wrong thing to want.

  326. Mike says:

    I checked who voted for the abolition of the English NHS and found a full compliment of Scottish lib dems, Alexander, Carmichael, Reid and of course Fluffy beardmuncher. Not only did they abandon the students but the withdrew the NHS in England. Despicable

  327. K1 says:

    Mike? Please provide a link, ta. Could be handy 😉

  328. Chick McGregor says:

    ” Fascist bastards.”

    Now, now. You mean “Greedy, narcissistic, power mad, talentless, sociopathic and stupid, Fascist bastards.”

  329. shug says:

    Mike one for Twitter I think

  330. Thepnr says:

    @Chick McGregor

    Your good at reading between the lines. Yes, that’s what I meant.

  331. bugsbunny says:

    I remember the indignation of the Daily Mail when it apparently showed a young Alec Salmond in a Denim Jacket and Jeans with Dark Glasses and in dire need of a haircut($0 years ago) given a clenched fist salute. But the Queen Mother is encouraging her children to give the Fascist/Nazi salute.

    The Romans apparently borrowed this form the Ancient Greeks, who did this salute in the Pagan Temples to show they were unarmed. An interesting side note the Greek for hail is chalazi (pronounced hail azi). This was done with a right arm extended to their top pagan god Zeus. From this was created the latin/romance title Hay Zeus (Hail Zeus). spelled Jesus. So Christs first name, (Christos is in itself is Greek for Messiah(Anointed One)), Jesus means Hail Zeus. So Jesus Christ in Greek means Hail Zeus anointed One.

  332. bugsbunny says:

    Jesus real name was the Hebrew name Yahushua (English translation = Joshua). Both means Yahweh (God) is salvation. So his full name in Aramaic would be Yahushua Bar Yosef, (Joshua, Son of Joseph) the Carpenter of course. As I said even the name of Jesus means Hail Zeus(chief god in Pagan Greece).

  333. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “@Cuilean says: 9 February, 2017 at 5:55 pm:

    “Annoyingly, it’s the ‘No’ voting over-65 age group which benefit the most from the SNP’s redoubtable defence of our Scottish NHS!”

    “Sometimes I think to hell with the old bastards.”

    Who the hell do you think you are you snivelling young bastard to call any older person a bastard? How dare you.”

    If you could read properly, Cuilean’s anger is directed at the ‘No’ voting elderly.

    Rightly so in my view.

    The British Nationalist elderly were stone deaf to the pleas of the younger generations.

    They pawned a better future for their children and grandchildren so they could live their remaining lives comfortably with their pride in the British Empire.

    The SNP government has given them more than they ever had from any other government but they vote for the Tories and Labour.

    They are ungrateful, to say the least.

  334. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “As Scotland has been a part of the EU since ever there has been an EU then Scotland not only meets ALL EU Criteria but her citizens are, and will under EU rules remain EU citizens.

    The EU has no rules/laws or legal mechanisms to remove EU citizens citizenship against their will.

    The United Kingdom is indeed the member state but the UK is neither a country nor a Unified State.”

    A distortion of the facts as per your usual habit.

    Scotland is not and never has been a member of the EU.

    It only happens to be in the EU as “North Britain”, a region of the UK.

    If Brexit happens, the UK gets out along with its North British region, no ifs no buts.

    The EU has no rules to keep the people of a region of a non-EU member state as “EU citizens”.

    Whatever pedantry you choose to use, the UK is a country as far as the world is concerned, the country that has been signing international agreements for the last 300 years.

  335. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Rock defeatedly opines:

    The EU has no rules to keep the people of a region of a non-EU member state as “EU citizens”.

    Actually, the EU has no standing rules either to disallow the citizens of a dividing member state from continuing to retain their rights as EU citizens. Whether the partition has been caused by one part wishing to exit the EU or not.

    The whole issue has never been tested. Yet.

    And if that turns out to be the first Scottish contribution to evolving EU case law and practice, wouldn’t that be just great? (Except to BritNat Leaver trolls, of course.)

    And why on earth would the EU be daft enough to spurn an iScotland? We’re energy rich and a helluva lot bigger than Malta!

    Wake up there, we’re on our way…

  336. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Great info, Rev. Good use of infinite time. Will bookmark this one.

  337. Brian McHugh says:

    …am I the only one listening with headphones to the audio clip? …what is with all the weird background sounds,while she is speaking?

  338. Silverfox says:

    ERROR – minor, but in the spirit of accuracy:

    It’s not the hopeless n hapless Hayley. It’s the much more competent but equally Unionist Gillian Marlesford 🙂

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