Scottish independence, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


What it would be like

Posted on July 15, 2014 by

The media and the No camp, in so far as those are two different things, got incredibly excited today about some comments made by new European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker in which he said that the EU wouldn’t undergo any further enlargement for the next five years.

“Juncker deals blow to Alex Salmond’s EU claims” (Telegraph)

“Independence: Juncker deals blow to Scots EU plans” (Scotsman)

“Alex Salmond’s dream of staying in the EU dealt a blow by new President of the European Commission” (Daily Record)

“Blow for SNP as Junker [sic] rules out EU expansion” (Express)

“Unionists hail Juncker ‘hammer blow’ to Scotland’s EU place” (Financial Times)

“Better Together said the president’s comments make it clear that a Yes vote in the referendum would also be a vote to leave the EU.” (Herald)

So far so mundane. And then something odd, but welcome, happened.

Someone did their job properly.

cookjuncker

cookjuncker2

cookjuncker3

Turns out, all you need to do is ask the question.

The proud and patriotic Scots in the No camp had been much too busy revelling joyously in the idea that Scotland would be an outcast nation condemned to the fringes of the international community to think about that, of course.

mcdougalljuncker

btjuncker

coburnjuncker

It was obvious to anyone else what Juncker had meant. He spoke of new countries not meeting the entry criteria (which wouldn’t apply to Scotland, which has complied with all EU regulations for 40 years), and of “no new enlargement” in the next five years (which wouldn’t apply to Scotland, as Scotland joining in its own right would leave the EU exactly the same size it is now).

But so desperate are the No camp to do Scotland down that they just couldn’t hold it in. Ruth Davidson in particular will have some difficulty living down her hasty gloat that:

“Jean Claude Junker [sic] is only confirming what we already know – that an independent Scotland would have to join the same queue as everybody else for membership of the EU.

Only today we find that queue has grown to a minimum of five years. On one side we have Alex Salmond with his non-existent legal advice, and on the other we have the people actually making the decisions about EU entry.”

As will Jackie Baillie, who can never resist an opportunity for a big fat fib:

“It is now clear that, if we leave the UK, we would be leaving the EU. This would put thousands of Scottish jobs at risk and would be massively damaging to our country.”

(Although we commend her for at least not just saying “a number of” jobs.)

In fact, Juncker’s clarification that the referendum was “an internal matter” hints strongly at the exact opposite conclusion. If he regards the vote as essentially none of the EU’s business, that can only suggest that his view is that an independent Scotland would be rubber-stamped straight in.

Of course, there’s an easy way to find out. The EU has already said that it will give a clear official statement on the subject if it’s asked to do so by the UK government. Inexplicably, the UK government has refused to take that simple step, even though it would have Scots believe that the answer will support its position.

We applaud the BBC’s James Cook for doing his job, and we wistfully imagine a debate where the rest of the press had shown such basic journalistic diligence. And we wonder, rather more pointedly, if the incident will lead to an increase in pressure from the media – which has until this point been sorely and bewilderingly lacking – on the UK government to ask the EU question and settle the matter, so that the people of Scotland can make a more informed decision.

We’re not holding our breath too hard, we must admit.

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  1. 15 07 14 21:18

    What it would be like | Scottish Independence News

  2. 16 07 14 15:50

    Craig Murray » Blog Archive » They Really Do Hate Scotland

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    Daily Docs #47 | Frann Leach

261 to “What it would be like”

  1. And, of course, the icing on the cake:

    Cameron reshuffle tells Europe that Britain is ‘ready to leave’

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/15/cabinet-reshuffle-lord-hill-says-britain-ready-to-leave-eu

  2. Croompenstein says:

    We’ll be rubber stamped in in much the same way as East Germany no fuss no bullshit

  3. Bunter says:

    Aye couldn’t believe my eyes as I saw these tweets. It was almost as if a journalist had decided to lift the phone and ask a question.

    As for the cringing so called Scots above. Cant say what I think of them.

  4. Croompenstein says:

    Good on James Cook but he still has a way to go to be forgiven for Bannockburn

  5. Bob Sinclair says:

    On the day that the media (with a few notable exceptions) do their job, satan will be seen heading to work wearing a shiny new pair of ice hockey boots.

  6. Vince Diaz says:

    Pardon me saying so, this is going beyond the pale, yet the worse will come after Yes, when each and every one of these put-downers will reappear wearing a YES PLEASE and saying they were behind it since the beggining.

  7. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh dear Better Thanks/ No Together, or what ever they call themselves, really should learn that it is really, really important that before opening one’s mouth to shoot oneself in the foot they should really check their facts FIRST. By that I mean of course getting as close to the source of any comments and CONFIRMING exactly what is meant otherwise one is going to need an awful lot of trips to the hospital due to injuries resulting from self inflicted shot gun wounds! :P

  8. JLT says:

    Seriously, Rev …I’ve been warring on Facebook all night. But when I saw Cooks’ entry, then oh my …it was like a silver bullet. Ever since, the few remnants of my ‘No’ friends have gone back into their shells and have gone quiet again. Certainly with your post this morning about the Doctors (or rather they weren’t) article, along with Priti Patel’s revealing comments this afternoon about slashing Scotland’s block grant, it’s certainly been a busy day for posting.

  9. Quentin Quale says:

    Luxembourg 2 England 0.

  10. Ealasaid says:

    Well done and thank you James Cook.

  11. Ken500 says:

    Is the BBC on strike already?

  12. muttley79 says:

    Why do so called “Proud Scots” take such great encouragement and glee in the fact that they believe Scotland would somehow be ostracised, banished and isolated against all the other nation states in the world if we vote Yes? Could it be that they are simply cringing Scots instead of proud ones, who are more interested in their own careers and advancement, than the interests of Scotland and its people as a whole? How many times since 2011 have they insisted that Scotland would not be allowed into the EU for some reason? Why do they look so happy when they are saying this?

  13. Thepnr says:

    I really think this was obvious, why the other lot took such delight I have No idea. It may have been James Cook that revealed the latest statements but I’m absolutely certain that a Scottish Government representative would have been asking questions as soon as the first story broke.

    Maybe even Salmond himself?

  14. Simon Chadwick says:

    Are these people helping us? Do ordinary voters see the bitterness and ridiculousness? Or do they swallow it?

  15. JLT says:

    Vince Diaz says:

    …when each and every one of these put-downers will reappear wearing a YES PLEASE and saying they were behind it since the beggining.

    To be honest, if Yes do win, then I’m expecting to see a strange thing in the years to come. As each year rolls by, I think it will get harder and harder to find anyone who voted ‘No’.
    Someone said to me recently, that it was the same thing with Kennedy and Nixon. I believe the Presidential Election was a close thing, but apparently, whenever you ask an American who voted in that election, they all appeared to have voted for Kennedy!

    I have a feeling it will be the same in the Post-Years of a Yes win…

  16. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

    Likewise, I’ve been battling on facebook and Twitter tonight … than those James Cook tweets appeared. Oh my that was fun.

    Still doing a Happy Snoopy Dance ;-)

  17. Steve Bowers says:

    Bob Sinclair…… top marks that man ( you to Rev of course, do you award crawling bastard points ? ) totally O/T how bout a mention for Scotcoin, our new cryptocurrency, any companies out their willing to use it, get yourself to Scotcoin classified on FB, it’s very exciting !

  18. D Duncan says:

    Presumably when englandshire leaves there will be a vacancy for us .

  19. DaveyM says:

    BBC JOURNO IN ‘I DONE MY JOB RIGHT’ SHOCKER

  20. James123 says:

    It shows you how bad things are when a journalist gets praise for simply doing his job.

  21. David Stevenson says:

    Political equivalent of premature ejaculation on behalf of the crowing Unionists. They will have to go back to the drawing board and dust off tomorrow’s scare story. They will have it in for Cook for having the audacity to expose them to deserved ridicule.

  22. muttley79 says:

    @JLT

    Seemingly in the years after the Republic of Ireland got its independence in 1921, more and more people claimed that they were involved in the Easter Rising of 1916 in Dublin than was actually possible!!

  23. gillie says:

    A complete fuk-up for Better Together. They’ll be in hiding after this.

  24. Clootie says:

    James Cook did what he was trained to do, what he is paid to do. I’m glad he did his job and I just wish that it was the normal state of events in Scottish journalism.

    As for the BT crowd – pathetic. However it is an easy fix – why don’t Westminster ask for a ruling.
    BT are so confident that it will kill the debate but strangely they avoid asking the question!

  25. chossy says:

    Oh my goodness! I’m very happy about these small tweets.

  26. HandandShrimp says:

    How to be a Better Together person

    1) Think of something shit happening to Scotland

    2) Really, really hope that it happens

    It is a simple philosophy, even Johann can do it ;)

  27. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wonder if Blair McDougall and Better Together, would be kind enough to identify the legal mechanism which will strip Scots of their EU citizenship?

  28. Grouse Beater says:

    The entire six basic arguments held fast by the Keep Scotland Docile mob are on a continual loop.

    The same damnable lies come around every month with little if any variation, only to be greeted with greater and greater synthetic jubilation from the ‘No to joy’ camp.

  29. JLT says:

    This is really embarrassing for Better Together. I mean, for God’s sakes …when you even have the BBC, singing from the same hymn sheet as the Yes folk, then you must be royally screwing it up.
    McDougall must be seriously bricking it by now as there never appears to be any good news for the No camp. Each day just seems to bring more bad news for him; the Orange Order bottling a 12 year old, a reasonable EU Commissioner in Juncker, Cabinet members openly declaring they want out of the EU, Priti Patel openly wanting to slash Scotland’s budget if Scotland votes ‘No’. He must be praying that no Scottish Tory, Labour or Lib Dem MSP suddenly jumps ship to save their own skin.

    Seriously …I wonder what we’ll get tomorrow…

  30. muttley79 says:

    Poor old Blair McDougall should spent less time braying at the moon, and start true fully telling us the consequences of a No vote.

  31. gillie says:

    James Cook better watch his back. The knives will be out.

  32. Graeme Doig says:

    Gavin Barrie 8.58

    Like it !

  33. Big Jock says:

    Yes and one splitting into two is not enlargement.The whole does not become bigger because a part of the whole becomes autonomous.Enlargement read my lips Jackie Baillie means more!A bit like when you have your mince pies and then say more.more..more..

  34. JLT says:

    Muttley79 …it wouldn’t surprise me!

    Personally …I think this has been a great day for ‘Yes’. Along with the Rev shooting down BT’s ‘Doctor’s’ poster, Priti Patel not yet quite learned the ‘silence is golden’ rule, and both Gove and Hammond stating that they want the UK out of the EU, and the BBC’s James Cook ridiculing Better Together over the EU

    A great day indeed…

  35. CameronB Brodie says:

    Oh, and strip us of our human rights conferred by our EU citizenship.

  36. galamcennalath says:

    If there’s 28 member states now, there may still be 28 when the UK constitutional change dust settles.

    Scotland will be in, England might well be out!

    I’m not really suggesting Jean-Claude Juncker will be Scotland’s best new friend, however consider this, the UK can hardly be top of his Xmas list after only the UK and Hungary opposed his appointment.

  37. annanurrahing says:

    A tweet is one thing but have the bbc actually stood someone in front of a camera to point this out? If not then they are simply telling people who already know (us) while keeping their audience in the dark.

  38. Zed says:

    When did Juncker’s spokeswoman release that statement? Was it before or after the 6.30 news?
    If before then perhaps we’re being a bit hasty in congratulating James Cook

  39. BigRik says:

    Makes you wonder whats next, U.N will boycott whisky…. we won’t be allowed to use British weather….Scottish Oil will drop to tuppence a barrel, every country in the world will refuse to recognise us because we were beastly to Westminster.. It would be hilarious if it weren’t so serious.

  40. As you said, so far, so mundane.

    But we were asked about this specifically several times while out canvassing tonight. Had had a discussion prior to setting off from meeting point so we all had answers.

    Q asked on door steps:

    The Pound – clarity that it would be kept.

    Education – free education
    Personal Care – for vulnerable

    EU Membership – particularly the Juncker Statement

    Defence –

    Funding everything – income/revenue (related to pound)

    And MORE IN DEPTH UNBIASED non-voice pop info.

  41. Chris Murray says:

    Consistently noted that James Cook seems to be a lone figure at the BBC eager to find out both sides of indyref stories. No ones perfect but he’s frequently an example to the rest of theme ow to do their jobs.

  42. KayBee says:

    Congrats James Cook of the BBC – I applaud you Sir, I find it a great shame & pity however that I cannot bring myself to say the same for the remainder of the BBC coverage of the Scottish independence campaign thus far as it has been painfully bias against the Yes campaign.

    Surely the big-wigs at the BBC must realise how this blatant and so openly obvious bias appears whilst under the close scrutiny of the remainder of the global media networks coverage, as this bias only serves to fully destroy for all time the BBC’s long, and previously deserved, reputation of impartial reporting and blows it wide open for all to see in one fell swoop.

    The people of Scotland deserve to be informed accurately – the BBC have failed in this task hence the anti BBC demonstrations outside your HQ in Glasgow recently which the BBC reported as YES campaigners for some reason.

  43. Big Jock says:

    I reckon a good team Scotland performance at the games will be all it takes for yes to win this.About 3% is enough.Plus the Tories and Ukip look like forming the next government so that’s worth another 5% anyway.

  44. Paula Rose says:

    Now – according to my diary it must be time for the no Eurovision, no Strictly Ballroom, no Dr Who, no Eastenders story.

  45. bluedog says:

    galamcennalath @ 0921 says: ‘I’m not really suggesting Jean-Claude Juncker will be Scotland’s best new friend, however consider this, the UK can hardly be top of his Xmas list after only the UK and Hungary opposed his appointment.’

    Got it! Juncker is possibly going to very hard for the UK or any ex-UK party to deal with. According to the DT, Juncker is obsessed with maintaining peace between France and Germany since his father didn’t enjoy his time in the Wehrmacht.

    But as Morag has said, the EU is relentless. By way of revenge on the UK, Juncker could therefore add a secessionist Scotland to his haul of trophies, given the chance.

    Which once again begs the obvious question: why would Scotland want to join the EU anyway? We constantly see on this site envious references to Norway’s wealth. Yes, but Norway did it all on its own without the EU, thus keeping the EU’s claws out of its fisheries and its oil.

    Could Scotland retain its oil as a member of the EU in its own right? Or would Juncker take it as Scotland was being patted down at the entry gates of the EU?

  46. Training Day says:

    Not one MSM journalist has asked a BT rep what is the process for the expulsion of Scotland from the EU. Not one. Because they know the answer.

    So let’s not get too carried away when James Cook does a three eighths hearted job (even though it’s three eighths better than his colleagues).

    As for ‘proud Scots’ like McDougall and Davidson – they’ll only have their pride fulfilled when Scotland ceases to exist.

  47. mogabee says:

    I was watching Mr Junckers speech this morning and what he said was very clear, but I instinctively knew someone would twist it and VOILA!

    Mr Juncker was heckled loudly by UKIP’s David Cockburn amongst others(I refuse to say he represents Scotland) and there was applause when they were remonstrated by the speaker.

    I don’t get the feeling that Juncker will be easily manipulated and will stand by his belief in a strong EU but be fair as well. I guess time will tell.

  48. kendomacaroonbar says:

    O/T

    36 hours to go before Friends of WoS fundraiser closes.

    Quality ceramic badges & trolley tokens still available !

    http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/friends-of-wings-over-scotland-fundraiser

  49. Truth says:

    Not the first time James Cook has made useful tweets like this.

    Keep it up.

    All we want is balance and a fair crack.

  50. scottish_skier says:

    Who’d have thought UKIP were so pro-EU.

    David Coburn seemed over the moon at the prospect of Scotland not being out of the EU due to a ‘game changer’ for the No campaign.

  51. Andy smith says:

    Sept 19, Rihanna photographed wearing ” yes ” shirt .!

  52. Doug Daniel says:

    I was at the European Parliament today (seems this section of their website is just a big fib, since I was told you *can’t* just turn up and get a tour http://www.europarl.europa.eu/visiting/en/visits/individual-chamber-tour.html), and am now more convinced than ever that a Scottish flag will be flying outside the parliament in 2016. It would just go completely against the history and ethos of the EU to prevent us from being members and would make a mockery out of the stories the EU tells of its dedication to democracy and human rights etc.

    Chucking Scotland out of the EU would create far more instability, uncertainty and administrative headaches in the EU than just letting us stay in. That’s why we’ll become the 29th member state in 2016.

  53. Chitterinlicht says:

    When we do vote yes, and if England votes yes to leave the EU, will Scotland need borders and passport control for people travelling to and from England? It is all getting very interesting.

  54. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    Chitterinlicht, not necessarily. There are non-EU states in Schengen for example. It would be open to the parties concerned to agree a continuation of the common British Isles travel area.

    However, Ireland is said to be hankering to join Schengen, and might take an English exit from the EU as a good excuse to do just that. This would require a border on the island of Ireland of course. At that point I wouldn’t die of shock if Scotland said, up yours then, and joined Schengen too.

    I look forward to the prospect of customs posts at Carter Bar being used to frighten English voters into voting against leaving the EU.

  55. Grouse Beater says:

    Never had a problem with accusations of impending border controls. Besides truck inspection sidings in existence for years on all the main roads into Scotland, where big rigs are weighed, border posts where passports are needed, whether created voluntarily, or forced upon us, mean jobs.

  56. Chitterinlicht says:

    Thanks Morag. I never knew that. I would rather not have borders.

  57. Fortbill says:

    Actually this is great news! If future applications are going to be postponed then this would clear the way for
    confirmation of Scotland’s new status as a full member state under rule 48 of the EU charter because there would be no other issues to deal with due to other applications.

  58. Grouse Beater says:

    Coburn and ‘game changer.’

    I shall add that one to:
    Poll shows tipping point.
    Ticks all the boxes.
    Devastating for the SNP.
    A disaster for independence.
    and
    Blows SNP hopes/ambitions out of the water.

  59. Les Wilson says:

    Fact is, and it is well known, the EU has NO process that would expel existing EU members. We are members as we are all Europeans within the EU.We adhere to the Eu rules and have done for 40 years.

    For Scotland to be outwith the EU, would cause chaos across the EU. All those Europeans here would then not have European protection, students would have to leave etc etc.All this is contrary to the European agenda.It just would not happen. Scaremongers go away,you will get egg on your chin!
    We would be accepted in and pronto. Experts have agreed this is the case.

  60. Justin Ross says:

    Just posted a polite comment on BT website’s page on this story informing them of the TRUTH and asking them to take it down or correct it, and apologise for lying to the people of Scotland.

    Result? They deleted my comment. Better Together…Better Not Debate…Better Not Apologise etc. etc.

  61. shug says:

    hope James Cook has another job lined up

    When his masters read this he will be toast

    Any suggestions how log it will take after a yes vote for Derek Bateman to be given the keys for Pacific Quay and the current residents told to pack their bags

  62. james anderson says:

    Your conclusion is correct Rev. Juncker’s comments are a direct suggestion that post Yes the Commission WILL treat Scotland as a succession rather than accession state. The rUK will share succession rights as an asset to be split (yes just like currency, BoE, overseas missions etc) and it is in their post Yes negotiating interests to do exactly that. It is in the gift of the UK Govt to clarify the position with the Commission. They have refused despite repeated requests, including from the Law Society though you would never know based upon the way the issue is reported. When Salmond debates with Darling he will PIN him on this obfuscation. It is the UK Govt who have WILFULLY created unecessary uncertainty therefore deliberately acted against the best interests of both the Scottish and rUK electorates for nothing more than No campaign collateral. All UK Govt needed to do was ask the question. So the supplementary is…why haven’t they? Anyway I’m glad MacDoughnut and Bailful leapt on this and made a complete arse of themselves and their dreadfully nihilistic campaign…then wee Mr Luxembourg jumps in and leaves them beilin. Sweet.

  63. scottish_skier says:

    @Chitterinlicht

    http://img.oh5.com/images/content/601/601.jpg

    French (EU) / Swiss (non-EU) border.

    Be careful not to roll over at night ;-)

  64. Grouse Beater says:

    They deleted my comment

    They deleted it? They really deleted it?

    This, from the organisation warning Scotland of dire consequencies if self-determination is reinstated? It can’t even contemplate facts?

  65. Grouse Beater says:

    They deleted my comment

    They deleted it? They really deleted it?

    This, from the organisation warning Scotland of dire consequencies if self-determination is reinstated? It can’t even contemplate facts?

  66. galamcennalath says:

    shug says:
    “Any suggestions how log it will take after a yes vote for Derek Bateman to be given the keys for Pacific Quay and the current residents told to pack their bags”

    I would have thought it was a matter of priority after a Yes on the 18th that broadcast media bias is sorted out. Certainly the BBC should have its wings clipped very quickly.

  67. macart763m says:

    Oh Jeez, car crash for McDougall and Davidson. Very much a case of open mouth, insert both legs. Even heard the beeb reiterate that ‘letter’ statement yet again out of context on reporting north Britain tonight.

    Now, surely they have to be aware by this point that Mr Juncker’s words were categorically not directed at Scotland by this point? If not, then just what possible use are they as journalists?

    Anyroads apparently that daft Beeb 2 prog is doing a piece on it tonight. Wonder if Mr Cook’s tweets will make the prog? I’ll not hold my breath.

  68. muttley79 says:

    @Andy Smith

    To be fair Rihanna is not usually wearing any shirt…

  69. Rock says:

    For the THIRD time, there is a EU Commission president from the wee country of Luxembourg (population HALF a million).

    But Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be an independent country.

    Was Queen Johann Lamont talking about herself when she said “WE are not genetically programmed to make political decisions”? In which case she was being totally honest.

  70. gillie says:

    That’s it then iScotland is guaranteed EU membership. What a feckin disaster for BT-NT.

  71. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    Scottish Skier, but Switzerland is in the Schengen zone, right? Can you see iEngland wanting to join Schengen if it leaves the EU? Not on a bet.

    If iEngland leaves the EU, Scotland will have to choose whether to continue the British Isles common travel zone even though it means sharing with a non-EU country. Maybe in the context of Ireland saying oh sod it and putting up a border with the six counties.

    It may be that’s exactly what would happen, but the prospect of returning to the 16th century, beefing up the North Sea ports, and letting iEngland stew in the isolation it has voted for, might be quite tempting.

    I look forward to the pro-EU advocates in England urging voters to reject separation, with the prospect of a border at Carter Bar as a bogey-man.

  72. ronnie anderson says:

    BBC Scottish news Baroness Liddle of Cartdyke, here’s me thinking its Coatdyke,but who am I to criticise the Bbc journalists.

  73. Patrician says:

    @roddy macdonald, can you contact me? click on my avatar for email details. I left a message on your blog a couple of days ago.

  74. crisiscult says:

    BT are stuck in a vicious circle and really don’t know what to do to break out and convince residents of Scotland that their vision of Rule Britannia is the best future for everyone; mostly because their message is 99% simply saying how sh1t Scotland is without Britannia ruling it. With that in mind, and the recent hidden poll by the UK Gov (and maybe from watching news reports of Moscow metro disaster), I’m wondering what their last gamble will be and do we have it covered. I’m talking about something BIG that will cause a shift in many people’s perception. It wouldn’t have to be in Scotland. Something on the scale of the London bombings might be enough for them to shift the balance. I think false flag operations are more likely though.

    I’m aware random passers by through this site will read that and think I’m a conspiracy nut, but those that have seen what’s going on in this battle will realise that UK will go to extreme lengths to prevent Scottish independence.

  75. X_Sticks says:

    Sorry O/T

    Interesting tweet from Karas Aunty on Twitter:

    “Protest letter 2 UK Ambassador in Sweden re: embassy interference in Scots’ #indyref. Can anyone translate?”

    The translation here

    http://t.co/AmT7ExdMlp

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s2gaqq

  76. Mary Bruce says:

    If the EU can’t be bothered telling Scotland what the procedures will be in the event of a yes vote then the EU can GTF quite frankly. We are citizens of Europe and are entitled to hear their opinion on this, the excuse that the UK govt have to ask is absurd.

    How can we make an informed decision in the referendum without this opinion, which they are currently witholding? The people of Scotland deserve clarification, anything else is completely undemocratic. The refusal of the EU to tell us shows a complete lack of respect for the Scots. We should protest.

    How about crowdfunding a convoy of buses to Brussels? Maybe Stagecoach will give us some for free?

  77. kininvie says:

    Why is James Cook the only journalist in Scotland who is prepared to lift the phone and check a story? This sort of stuff is journalism 001 – and it’s still taught in training courses. And it’s not as if the egg-on-face when something like the VoteNob or the Top Doctors story is rubbished within a few hours can be comfortable to live with.

    If citizen journalism can do a better job than the professionals – as Stu proves, day after day, – it’s hardly surprising that the writing is on the wall for the MSM. You might have thought that a few people in the MSM would have caught on to that by now – but apparently not.

  78. Patrician says:

    You won’t have to wait years, on the 19th September 2014, you wont find anyone in Scotland admitting they voted No, apart from a few deranged MSM columnists.

  79. Grouse Beater says:

    22.45 – pundit on SKY news has just said otherwise.

    The SKY newscaster had the smarts to open the discussion pointing out Juncker exempted Scotland from his general comments. But the pundit, duly corrected, insisted on continuing with her prejudical remarks because it is comforting to believe her opinion re-enforced, that is, Scotland’s hopes are dashed as a future EU member.

    A perfect example of people carrying their prejudices around with them like flies around their head wherever they go.

  80. kininvie says:

    @Mary

    You place the blame in the wrong quarter. The EU is hamstrung because it can only give its opinion at the request of a member state. And we are not – yet – a member state.

    Your wrath is better directed at your MP, in whose power it is to make the UK govt request such an opinion.

    (OK – good luck with that – but the point remains that only Westminster has the power to extract that opinion from the EU)

  81. Big Jock says:

    Sarah Smith could not hide her agenda when Alan Smith suggested the Euro comments were not worth serious discussion.She was livid and defensive!The games up Sarah.Do you really think that anyone seriously thinks you are not in Millibands back pocket.

  82. heedtracker says:

    It must be that when BBC journos do go on strike, they actually do what they’re supposed to do like report stuff. Welcome to the lunatic asylum that is teamGB meeja. “if you don’t pay us more money, we’re walking out and working”

  83. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Kininvie, I have the 1st Wings Banner to be forwarded to the Rev,I am mobile now I can meet you in Bathgate or wherever is closet to you.

  84. heedtracker says:

    My Slovene girlfriend Professor Tomkins must have thought all his Xmas’s had come at once but he’s gone strangely quiet now What’s happened to Bliar MacFastpiearm of the Clan Lowmetabolism anyway?

    https://id.theguardian.com/profile/abiesalba/public

  85. ronnie anderson says:

    STV 5 things for tomorrow , we’re going to get luvbombed again by the rUK, Big Wheel Keeps on Turning B T keeps on Crashing & Burning.

  86. Brian Mchugh says:

    Ps. Off topic.

    Saw a big black van driving past Crookston Primary School in Glasgow this afternoon with big ‘YES’ (in sort of like gold or yellow?) made up of dots on the side and lots of wee YES flag stickers on it.

    My day was instantly brightened and I lifted my sleave to look at my Yes wristband. …Just wish the van got stuck in traffic or something, cos it passed too quickly for me to show my appreciation… this post is my appreciation :-)

  87. X_Sticks says:

    @heedtracker

    Occurred to me it might mean that Scotland doesn’t get to see the opening ceremony. That would save them from trying to avoid Saltires with the cameras. ;)

  88. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @Ronnie

    Parcel shipped to you today.

    Will send out button badges when I receive them which should be in 10 days or so.

  89. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    I wonder if Juncker had any idea at all when he made his comment, how it was going to be spun by the No lobby in Scotland (and in that I include the BBC, STV and all the daily newspapers). I think it’s quite likely it hadn’t occurred to him. There are other issues in Europe and I don’t suppose he thinks about us every waking moment.

    He was talking about the new candidate states in Eastern Europe. He was talking about a period of consolidation to assimilate the ones we’ve already got before accepting any more. Why on earth, in his world, would that comment have anything to do with Scotland?

    He is almost certainly thinking, if Scotland votes No this is a non-issue, and if it’s a Yes vote we’ll work something out, we always do. Next problem. Maybe he’ll realise what the No lobby is like after this, though.

  90. TJenny says:

    Ronnie – I don’t think I signed the banner at the WOS night, so would/could you please put TJenny’s name on it before sending to the Rev? Thanks (in naticipation). :-)

  91. X_Sticks says:

    Rev Stu teasing on twitter:

    “Very excited about the thing I got a phonecall about today. Really hope it comes through :)

  92. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Kendomacaroonbar, Thanks Ken yer on tae a big pint at the next Wings meet.

  93. Lesley-Anne says:

    I heard about the ban on Saltires for the opening ceremony from a friend who is going to the opening ceremony X_Sticks. Unfortunately for the BBC and organisers she will still be doing what she can, face painted with Saltires, Yes badges, Bu Choir badges, and of course the obligatory YES T-Shirt. :P

  94. TJenny says:

    Oops – naticipaation – must be what we’ll all be in on Sept 19th! :-)

  95. TJenny says:

    damn – edit didn’t take. :-(

  96. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @Ronnie

    Ach, nae bother.

  97. Paula Rose says:

    @ TJenny – ‘naticipation’ love it!

  98. heedtracker says:

    @ X_Sticks, nah its probably just viewer numbers around the world and that’s their tactic. Or look at this way, if Pacific Quay closed for good tomorrow, would anyone actually care and that includes BBC England.

  99. Flooplepoop says:

    BBC and STV had already planned what they were going to discuss tonight and didn’t let the facts get in the way of it.

  100. Bunter says:

    Well if Sunday Herald is interested in debunking the rubbish on STV and BBC tonight, its not rocket science for them to contact Juncker and or spokeswoman and get definitive quotes and put this EU shit to bed once and for all.

    An open goal for any journalist worth their salt and who wants their fellow Scots to have some clarity.

  101. Indy_Scot says:

    You would think that the knuckle dragging unionists and the unionist media would get fed up making complete ‘C’ words of themselves, but clearly they don’t.

  102. ronnie anderson says:

    We / Yes Scotland should be giving out those small Saltires, I was in the Yes office today to see what I could get for the Bbc Demo / Seafest, they dont stock materials there its East Kilbride small Saltire,s 15p each. They should be giving the materials away or at least cost price, they’re going to be left with a lot of material on 18th Sept.

  103. Brian Mchugh says:

    How the hell can they ban Saltires when Scotland is supporting team Scotland?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p1pXEIrtfU

    http://www.goscotland.org

    I will have my Saltire and anyone who tells me to get rid of it will have a fight. ;-)

  104. Paul Beck says:

    Being a Scottish print journalist right now looks easy: you copy and paste any bad news story – better still a press release from the No Campaign, then using the secret keyboard shortcut [Ctrl+AS] you add the automatic prefix “Fresh blow for Alex Salmond as…”

    All that remains is to by-line it with an obviously made-up name (Magnus, Torcuil, that kind of thing) and you’re done.

    Later, when it’s proved to be absolute nonsense, you … actually, you don’t do anything.

  105. X_Sticks says:

    @Ronnie

    Na Ronnie, there’ll be a late run on Yes material from BT when they realise their situation :)

  106. TJenny says:

    Paula Rose – clearly my Freudian slip showing, but it does have a certain je ne sais quois, or as we say in Scotland, dinny ken whit! :-)

  107. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    Bunter, by Sunday the SH will decide it’s an old story and not worth revisiting. Like they decided the story about what the oil was really likely to be worth wasn’t worth running last Sunday.

    They take a generally pro-Yes line, but they don’t get in there and take part in the fight.

  108. geeo says:

    Walking the dog tonight with my wife and niece and were passing 6 No thanks old guys were waiting to cross the road.

    As we approached i waited for to be offered a leaflet full of lies ready to simply tell them i have already watched the BBC news so i didnt need a leaflet full of the same nonsense.

    As soon as the leaflet was in his hand and moving in our direction, my 13 year old niece, simply put on her most cheeky face and said, in an extremely polite voice..”No thanks”

    My wife simply said “that lassie spends to much time with you”..

    She has been asking me stuff for a while now and is much more engaged than my wife is, much to my annoyance.

    She says she will go vote Yes as long as i ddon’t keep talking to her about it.
    Fair enough i suppose!

  109. Paula Rose says:

    TJenny – slip showing dear?

  110. James123 says:

    This is weird:

    https://archive.today/EtuR6

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/no-campaign-accused-twisting-comments-3864102

    Notice the time stamp on each piece, exactly the same, same comments as well except for a couple of new ones on the last link.

  111. TJenny says:

    Paula Rose – Freudians are the only slips a girl’s allowed to show in public.

  112. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Tjenny, awe you know whit ma speilings like, it might end up like Brooke Bond,ya wee monkey

  113. BrianW says:

    I am VERY surprised (well, clutching my chest in shock) that the BBC have updated their story to reflect the true nature of todays comments (and an extra bonus – they never adjusted the time stamp of the update to make it look like the story was as it was all along)

    More surprised that they reported that even after the clarification from Junckers spokesperson the Better Together No Thanks uKOK team are still in denial.

    “Despite clarification about Mr Juncker’s comments, a spokesperson for Better Together said: “These comments lay bare the full extent of the problems we would face if we left the UK. “

  114. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Tjenny its the Strathclyde Park banner, not the Newsroom one.

  115. Capella says:

    The EU will give an answer on Scottish membership to the UK government if they ask for it. They refuse to ask for it. That speaks volumes. It also demonstrates their complete inability to look after the interests of the Scottish people. If they seriously believed we are part of the UK then they would clarify the position to serve our interest. Their dereliction of duty about this issue shows that we can’t rely on them to represent us. We ought to get out of this dysfunctional relationship as soon as possible.

  116. TJenny says:

    ronnie – Ah, Ok, but was there a banner at the Newsroom night? If so, will it attend the next WOS night and have we decided where and when that will be yet?

  117. Robert Peffers says:

    There is, of course, another point that the NO camp are strangely silent upon. Let us imagine that Scotland became independent and examine the immediate REAL implications. First is that the Treaty of Union formed a union that is known the World over as, “The United Kingdom”, and it plainly is a bipartie union with but two signatory kingdoms on the document. The treaty, (article I), first united the two Kingdoms, (realms), as a single Royal Realm. Only then does it set-up a new joint parliament, (Article III). There is not a single mention of country or countries in the Treaty and each signatory is equally sovereign. In 1706/7 the Kingdom of England was composed of three countries which is why there is no Kingdom of Ireland signature nor one for the princedom of Wales.

    Thus, on day one, the two kingdoms remain as a United Kingdom – that is the monarchy remains intact but the joind parliament at Westminster has just disunited and the idea of an rUK is wishful thinking.

    If the Kingdom of Scotland is no longer an EU member then neither is the Kingdom of England for it is the United Kingdom that has just disunited that was the member state not either the country nor kingdom of England.

    The implications are this. English, Welsh, N. Irish and EU fishing fleets are no longer legally allowed to fish Scottish waters. Neither are the oil & gas companies registered to pay tax to Westminster legally allowed to operate in Scottish continental shelf fields.

    Now tell me – would, for example, Spain be inclined to ask for Scotland to be removed as a member of the EU and have the EU’s largest fishing fleet thrown out of Scottish waters? What of English, Welsh & N. Ireland trawlers instantly banned from the best North Sea and Atlantic fishing grounds?

    The whole Better Together views of a rump/remainder/United Kingdom are just so much balderdash and have not a single legal leg to stand upon.

    The United Kingdom is NOT a country – it is a Kingdom.
    It is bipartite and thus disunites.
    The two kingdoms are equally sovereign.
    Westminster is the Parliament of the Kingdom – not the kingdom.
    All United Kingdom citizens are also EU citizens and here is no way to expel EU citizens.
    Scotland was a recognized country before England existed. It cannot become a new country.

    The truth is that after the UK disunites both kingdoms will remain EU members and both will be required to renegotiate terms.

    If you want all that in simple terms – is this – The United Kingdom is exactly that – a kingdom formed by two independent kingdoms uniting – on one leaving they disunite.

  118. mr thms says:

    I just had a thought that today’s changes in government was actually about Westminster preparing for Scotland voting Yes to independence, and for the negotiations with Scotland and the EU to come..

  119. Paula Rose says:

    TJenny – I prefer not to show my freudians in pubic, dear.

  120. Bob Sinclair says:

    Ronnie et al,
    If youve got her number might be worth giving Moira a wee phone to cheer her up. Looks like shes had the trolling day from hell.

  121. Tony Armstrong says:

    Why do “proud” elected Scots take great delight in news that would adversely affect an independent Scotland.

    They keep telling us they’re just as patriotic but their actions say something entirely different.

  122. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Bob Sinclair no can do Bob ,just through F/book but will send her a message thanks.

  123. yerkitbreeks says:

    The article by Sionaidh Duncan-Scott quoted recently, on EU membership, has an intriguing section on Citizenship.

    It appears we all have DUAL Citizenship based on being an individual within the EU, as well as a citizen of a member state, and the former may even have primacy over the latter.

    This would create a dilemma since if Scotland was “expelled”, Scots would still have all rights as EU individuals. The origins of this are to do with the ethos of its post – war creation, where human rights were fundamental.

  124. ronnie anderson says:

    @Tjenny,Sos the 1st one was the Bbc demo 2,the 2nd one was Newsroom( half full) that will be out again at the Bbc demo on the 27th July, gerry has ordered another 2 for the Arbroath Seafest & the next Wings nite out so there,s plenty of time for you to sign one.

  125. CameronB Brodie says:

    As Capella suggests, Westminster’s refusal to seek EU clarification, indicates that Scotland’s interests are considered subordinate to those of Westminster.

    Who does Westminster represent?

  126. TJenny says:

    ronnie – hooray, I’ll still get to sign one. :-) Maybe after indy, they’ll be framed and hung on the walls of the parly.

  127. Capella says:

    @davidhk
    interesting.
    BTW you can convert very long URLs to tiny ones here:
    http://tinyurl.com/

  128. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Tjenny ur you on the rid biddy,hung in the Scottish Parliament lol.

  129. ronnie anderson says:

    @ T jenny the banner was in the Parliament they took it of us at the entrance door,& put it at the exit door.

  130. a2 says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see a statement coming out of Europe within the next month. Let’s face it the UK government is just a complete PITA and someone is going to get fed up of being selectively quoted at every opportunity.

  131. TJenny says:

    ronnie – why not, along with the YES Scotland signed declaration, all part of the road to indy. Just a thought. (never, ever rid biddy, but I have eaten half a bag of Liquorice Allsorts, and of course, copious cups of tea) :-)

  132. Col says:

    Sorry, what`s this talk of the Saltire being banned? What have I missed here?

  133. a2 says:

    BTW the bbc demo will be interesting as there’s a gated city of tents sprung up between the beeb and the science centre.

  134. yabadabadoo says:

    It is impossible for a country to be independent and a member of the eu.

    Why after a yes vote for Scotland to be independent do the snp want to sell out the Scottish people to the united states of Europe?

    The snp proposed constitution makes eu law, treaties and all 170, 000 pages of directives above any scottish laws. Eg look at the minimum alcohol pricing that the Scottish parliament wants to implement but the EU says no, they want to see if is legal – we will find out in two years.

    Mean while the EU has voted in another president- only problem is the voters never voted for him and the eu parliament only had one person that they could vote for on the secret vote- what bizarre sort of democracy is that? None actually its communist.

    The European union is a project for a Europe of regions. These regions have no sovereignty- look at Greece, Cyprus, spain, Portugal, even Italy – 50 percent youth unemployment and nothing they can do about it as the Brussels dictators demand the banks get paid first.

    United States of Europe- no thanks

  135. a2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    “Now tell me – would, for example, Spain be inclined to ask for Scotland to be removed as a member of the EU and have the EU’s largest fishing fleet thrown out of Scottish waters?”

    There’s a problem there of course, on day one,if that came to pass, without any fishery protection vessels…

  136. YESGUY says:

    Well done Wings and all the readers.

    Finally we catch the BT shower twisting and spinning MORE scares. It cannot be this easy. We should just ignore them and let them trip over each other . They are doing just as good a job for us as the rest of YES .

    They cannot get away with all the lies and shite for much longer. They will soon turn on each other like the rats they are.

    Great laugh enjoying all your comments and have had a wee word with my buddy and try sort out some music for the next Wings meet.

    If you haven’t heard try this for a wee taster.

    1st class music and all YESSERS.

    youtu.be/njpHoWZVC2k?list=LLKZuVH_U1OPnZGBovpWPmdQ

    I am informed they a trying out a new set and will get back to you with more info when we have a date for the meet.

    Had a ball the last meet in Edinburgh, Can’t wait for the next. It was great to meet you all . A first for me. Hooked.

  137. geeo says:

    @a2.

    “There’s a problem there of course, on day one,if that came to pass, without any fishery protection vessels…”

    We have nukes !!!

  138. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    This is weird:

    https://archive.today/EtuR6

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/no-campaign-accused-twisting-comments-3864102

    Notice the time stamp on each piece, exactly the same, same comments as well except for a couple of new ones on the last link.

    James, it’s maybe not so weird, as it explains a lot. I followed a tweeted link to the new version of the story and wondered how come there were so many comments already. Many of the comments seemed to have been written by people who had not read the story, or who even seemed to have read a different story. Cross-purposes all over the place.

    Well, obviously there were commenting on a different story, the archived one. Then the DR has completely re-written the piece, absolute U-turn, replaced the text, and left the comments and the original time stamp unchanged.

    What a shambles.

  139. YESGUY says:

    geeo

    Soaked my screen AGAIN

  140. geeo says:

    @yabadabadoo.

    The fact we as the current UK are actually IN the EU and there is not a legally binding in out referendum waiting when Cameron says it is due, your comment above looks more foolish by the second.

  141. geeo says:

    YESGUY says:
    geeo
    Soaked my screen AGAIN

    Not sure if i should say you are welcome or you owe me 40 quid !

  142. CameronB Brodie says:

    yabadabadoo
    I appreciate where you are coming from, but Scots in Scotland are already in the EU (EU citizenship and human rights). The SNP have no mandate to remove Scots from those arrangements. An independent Scotland will have direct control over who our future governments are and what Scotland’s future direction will be. So your point is?

    P.S. I wrote this a wee while back but didn’t want to be the first to reply. :)

  143. thoughtsofascot says:

    @muttley79

    funnily enough, the same happened in South Korea too, after it got its independence from Japan, a lot of former collaborators came out and claimed that they actually helped the country fight for its freedom, when really no such thing happened.

  144. Paula Ward says:

    When I saw this report on BBCScotlandshire I knew this was nothing but spin. I doubt Juncker even had Scotland in his mind with these statements. When thinks of what has happened since the banking crash, and particularly over the past year, what with Greek banks, spying Yanks, Russian tanks and budgets shrank, (sorry) that is the real reason for Juncker -a great ally of the German chancellor- being keen on having no new members in the EU in the foreseeable future.

    Unfortunately for Better Together, and this is something which has entirely slipped their minds, Scotland is already in the EU.

    The fact that the headlines say “Blow for Salmond” and not “Blow for Porochenko” just shows what a load of brainwashing crap it is.

  145. Brian Mchugh says:

    Col… there were ‘unconfirmed’ reports of the BBC requesting that ‘T in the park’ security were ordered to confiscate YES Saltires at the music festival. …just rumours I believe for now, but this raises genuine concerns that the establishment will try to pull any stunt to quash any pro-Scottish sentiment at the games.

    I have already seen one or two instances of deliberate politicisation of the games in favour of pro-union… but I will refrain from making comment at this time. We will see what transpires! My opinion is, if there is even the slightest political interference during the games, then it will expose itself for all to see.

  146. BuckieBraes says:


    ‘Why after a yes vote for Scotland to be independent do the snp want to sell out the Scottish people to the united states of Europe?’

    Well, why don’t you ask the SNP? Why are you asking us?

    In Scotland as in England and elsewhere, some people want to be in the EU and some don’t.

    I get that; but if we don’t achieve a Yes vote, carping about the SNP’s policies is irrelevant. The matter of EU membership will be left at the mercy of the English electorate and the UK Government.

    We need a Yes vote to empower us; otherwise it’s all fairly academic. Once we have been recognised in the international community as a sovereign nation state, our choices are infinite. In the EU or out; in NATO or out; monarchy or republic: infinite choice!

    Stay in the UK – no choice; no empowerment.

  147. YESGUY says:

    geeo

    Read it twice missed it first time..

    No more hot liquids and pc’s

    Cracking return though.

  148. Cactus says:

    Indeedly, the present UK government REFUSES to ask a simple question regarding EU status on behalf of future iScotland.. that’s right up there with the current UK governments Prime Minister REFUSING to debate Scotland’s present First Minister. Not very TOGETHERLY.

    Yeah X-Sticks ~ The ‘Glasgow Games’. If only Scotland were independent already the streets would be awash with saltire flags by now!

    It’s the very timely XX games, not the XIX or the XXI games, so it’s two d’amourly kisses for Scotland, like it is two candles for Finland. What is it with all these X’s.. X kinda sticks doesn’t it? :)

    X Kaunis Ecosse X

  149. Brian Mchugh says:

    Buckie Braes; “We need a Yes vote to empower us, otherwise it’s all fairly academic. Once we have been recognised in the international community as a sovereign nation state, our choices are infinite. In the EU or out… in NATO or out… monarchy or republic… infinite choice!

    Stay in the UK – no choice; no empowerment.”

    …that was worth repeating again. ;-)

  150. Camz says:

    I can take or leave the EU, as we will trade regardless. What I don’t accept is that these nay sayers think that every little reason they can think of is THE reason for voting ‘No’.

    It’s all propaganda. Vote aye, and sleep at night.

  151. Chic McGregor says:

    @Muttley

    The thing about ‘ProudScotButs’ is we all know what comes out of ‘Buts’.

  152. Auld Rock says:

    Bluedog, About Norway, Norway is a member of EFTA and like all EFTA countries contributes to the EU budget and has to obey EU rules just as if it were a member of EU, only problem is they have no say in the forming of these rules. As for oil, it’s Norway’s oil/gas as it lies within the Norwegian Economic Zone as defined in International Law. As for fishing they make their own agreement with the EU which also allows Norway to fish in e.g. Scottish waters, reciprocal agreement.

    As for Scotland it is and always will be Scotland’s oil/gas. I will agree that fishing needs to be sorted as it was given away by Ted Heath and Maggie Thatcher to gain advantages for the City of London and the so called ‘rebate’.

    Auld Rock

  153. SquareHaggis says:

    No Scottish Open on terrestrial T.V. this year. How’d that happen?
    Must be the first time in history!

    Prerequisite for the Ryder Cup perchance?

  154. geeo says:

    Just a thought, the current CAP payments designated for Scotland that is currently “pooled and shared” (nicked) by dan sarf will be at best, forcibly returned to Scotland along with a demand for historical “misplacement” over the years.(assuming continuation of membership as expected)

    At worse (no EU for us) then ruk will lose the Scottish CAP money along with a requirement to reconfigure the Rebate down the way or scrapped by EU altogether.
    If iScotland are made to re enter the EU then europe may sense the chance to boot Cameron in the chuckies using the same principle as refusing us entry.

  155. Angry Weegie says:

    I’m glad someone at BBC Scotland thought to check with Juncker. Certainly Brian Taylor doesn’t seem to have asked anyone before writing his blog on the BBC website.

    You can always depend on Brian to take the easy way out. Investigative journalism? That’s for others to do.

  156. alistair says:

    Comment for Ronnie,
    just saw your late night close of the BBC Bias Event page. I have never seen such a load of pish posted in the name of the campaign. Hopefully you’ll still be there on 27th. Maybe there’ll be two of us left on the day ! And hey that would be good – probably would get the BBC to show it live as to how we couldnae organise a piss up. Maybe Stu would come up and there would be three – I’ll gie you a kip !

  157. Roll_On_2014 says:

    Morag Graham Kerr: at 12.27am

    Aye Morag and the BBC article has gone through five changes and a Headline change.

    Current article

    Changes

  158. MacCumhail says:

    Hi,
    Longtime lurker here and voting YES. Could someone please send me a link to the legislation or advice from the EU which states only the UK and not the Scottish govt. Can ask for official EU clarification on the remaining/joining EU question?
    I have an undecided voter who doesn’t believe me.
    I tried to find it myself with no luck.
    Thanks

  159. macart763m says:

    You know that Mr McDougall has gone off piste when even the Herald prints both sides of the story.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/juncker-pulled-into-row-over-independence.24759239

    I’d suggest he, Ms Bailie and Ms Davidson keep a low profile for the next wee while, but after a public gubbing like this, you kinda hope they don’t. :D

  160. ian foulds says:

    I have not read all the posts yet and thus apologise if this is already covered but am I to presume that Ms Baillie is implying the job losses and the damage will also occur when the UK leaves the EU?

  161. Grouse Beater says:

    I question the literary ability of a BBC journalist, (Brian Taylor) when he employs the colloqual phrase ‘his rivals have a different take’ and uses it in written form.

    These are the same people who speak as if writing. A common occurence has us hear the listing of items as in, ‘there is A, that could happen, and B, this could happen.’ Or they say, ‘eg’ instead of ‘for example.’

    As I mentioned before, autonomy has to be about seizing the opportunity to raise standards in everything.

  162. Grouse Beater says:

    Unfortunately for Better Together, and this is something which has entirely slipped their minds, Scotland is already in the EU.

    Judging by the rate of incident and repetition, they are pathologically inclined to denigrate Scotland and the skills of its people as a normal mode of self-identification.

    For such a clinical maladay to be so deep-seated it must always have been part of their personality, only now they are able to exercise it whilst appearing to be sane.

    In years to come study of this entrenched malaise will be considered of special scientific interest by students, doctors, and clinical psychologists, if not extraordinary, a debilitating, blind prejudice surely inculcated from centuries of subservience.

  163. bjsalba says:

    BBC Radio News on now. Juncker comments about parliament. No mention of Scotland. All about UK commissioner and others.

  164. Marian says:

    BBC reporter James Cook should be commended for his excellent journalism in establishing the truth despite Pacific Quay’s blatant attempt to twist it on behalf of Project Fear.

    It shows that there is at least one journalist at the BBC who knows that a journalists job is to report the truth no matter what.

    I trust he won’t now find himself sidelined as a punishment for doing his job properly, as others appear to have done.

    By the way can anyone explain why the latest explosive revelations about GCHQ’s activities from Edward Snowden have gone by without any reaction from the YES campaign’s online support despite their very serious implications for the YES campaign?

  165. john king says:

    TJenny

    Im sure you did sign the wings banner I could swear your name was on it when I signed it,

    Scotland tonight
    Patricia Ferguson v Mark Biaggeo

    She starts withe the Junkers “no new admissions for 5 years
    then bizarrly ends with “of course Scotland will remain in the EU but wont get same deal as the UK”,

    It was almost as if the producer had whispered into her earpiece advising her not o pull that thread or she would leave a lot more on show than her Freudian slip
    , know what I mean TJenny? ;)

  166. bjsalba says:

    @mr thms said at15 July, 2014 at 11:43 pm
    I just had a thought that today’s changes in government was actually about Westminster preparing for Scotland voting Yes to independence, and for the negotiations with Scotland and the EU to come..

    What an interesting thought! No females on the negotiating team then. All Conservative negotiating team, perhaps? After thrashing the uppity Scots in negotiations, victors get plum jobs in the next (Conservative majority) parliament?

  167. Sinbusters says:

    Has there been any sort of concerted public effort to *encourage* the UK government to ask the EU for their official position in the event of Yes?

    – If there isn’t one already, then wouldn’t a petition be a good idea?

  168. Bunter says:

    Brian Cox and Richard Wilson on BBC R5L earlier with Nicki Campbell, and Wilson now exposed as a fine example of a cringing Scot rhyming off every BT cliché in the book. Nasty nationalism, inward looking, look at the middle east blah blah till Nicki brought up the Easter Rising and asked him if Ireland should still be in the UK. Cue lots of bluster and gibberish then ”oh its too late noo and was a long time ago”

    Cox on the other hand, as you would expect was clear and calm, citing the democratic deficit and examples of what is wrong with Westminster.

    Think some of these naw celebs must be coached at some sort of BT school for cringers.

  169. Robert Louis says:

    O/T

    Sky news at 0810 am, story regarding the UK guy who went to syria and appeared in the jihadi video that was all over the news a week ago. Story reported by sky ‘news’ today as;

    The foreign office are investigating reports that the Scottish man who went to Syria, and featured in jihadi videos, has been shot in Iraq‘.

    So if this guy was English he would be a ‘Brit’, but of course, we see how obviously London is trying to spin this for all its worth regarding Scotland and terrorism etc..

    probably the first of many ‘incidents’ which Westminster, MI5 and GCHQ will engineer in the run up to the referendum.

  170. Robert Louis says:

    As regards the Juncker story, I fully expect James Cook of the BBC will be hauled into the office today, and informed his future and pension with the BBC are on a ‘shoogly peg’, given that he actually did his job, and reported the TRUTH.

  171. squarego says:

    I always loved algebra.
    28 +iScot -rUK = 28

  172. Tattie-bogle says:

    O/T LATEST BT
    If Scotland votes YES this will happen
    http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi3897206297/

  173. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tattie-bogle
    South Park for adults. :)

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tattie-bogle
    Doh! The Simpsons.

  175. Muscleguy says:

    @ScottishSkier

    A scientist colleague of mine who shall remain nameless wanted to take some mice (genetically modified, ooh! Scary!) from Geneva to Paris by air. Big customs etc problems. So he got in his car and drove to the French part of Geneva airport and got on an internal French flight, nae bother. Yes, Geneva airport has two entrances. Be careful which one you go out of.

    I knew another guy who worked in Geneva but lived in France for tax reasons. Nae bother.

    I once tried to get mice from Paris, big trouble, rabies regulations (yes really). Ended up getting them couriered in a jiffy bag: as morulae (very early embryo stage just a ball of cells in a tube with media) which were then implanted into host females ready and waiting and popped out behind the infection barrier. Easy peasy. Borders and regulations can be circumvented.

  176. Ian Kirkwood says:

    “We don’t include the UK in our plans anymore. We assume you’re leaving the EU so don’t assume we even bother thinking about British objections,” said Mr Juncker’s closest aide recently.”
    Thanks to Mark Mair on the Herald comments section for quoting this from yesterday’s Telegraph. This statement is very significant and contrasts very strongly with the original spin put on Hr. Juncker’s speech. So now we have the reality of the UK’s position in Europe. As others have said, it really is time to go for YES.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @a2 says: 16 July, 2014 at 12:23 am

    “There’s a problem there of course, on day one,if that came to pass, without any fishery protection vessels”.

    No Problem there. Read your history.
    Fact – WWII saw the UK use armed fishing trawlers.

    Fact – As a fully sovereign partner in the former bipartite PARLIAMENT of the United Kingdom we own a negotiatable part of the United Kingdom’s assets. If the Westminster, de facto parliament of England, refuses us a fair share of our bought and paid for assets, (ships & aircraft & weapons) then we have no share of THEIR national debts and contributions to the EU, UN, NATO, Council of Europe.

    Fact – As members of the bipartite UK we remain members of NATO. If NATO refuse us membership we have no liability to contribute to NATO.
    Ditto – UN, Council of Europe, EU et al.

    In short the Bitter Together fondly imagined continued rUK is not a legally porovable fact. There is no legal evidence to support it. There isn’t a court in the World that can honestly fail to understand that the title UNITED KINGDOM legally describes a Royal Realm.
    In short it is legally a Kingdom headed by the Queen. The thing that is disuniting is the Parliament of the United Kingdom but NOTE WELL – The Armed forces are legally The ROYAL Navy, ROYAL Air Force and Soldiers of the QUEEN.

    Matter of fact – Even the parliament is legally Her Majesty’s Government. As are Her Majesty’s Treasury, Her Majesty’s Royal Mint, right down to Her Majesty’s Stationary Office – legally Scotland owns a bit of every paper clip that Cameron holds his papers together with.

  178. Nana Smith says:

    O/T but should concern us all. Seems privacy is only for elites, which begs the question “what could they be trying to hide” Terrible rush to pass this bill with only 40 or so mps against.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/15/emergency-surveillance-legislation-fast-tracked-parliament#start-of-comments

    Special exemptions to be written into Freedom of Information Act

    The Royal Family is to be granted absolute protection from public scrutiny in a controversial legal reform designed to draw a veil of secrecy over the affairs of the Queen, Prince Charles and Prince William.
    Letters, emails and documents relating to the monarch, her heir and the second in line to the throne will no longer be disclosed even if they are in the public interest.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-family-granted-new-right-of-secrecy-2179148.html

  179. Graeme Menzies says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    Well, that’s democratic then……

  180. galamcennalath says:

    EU, I always chuckle when I hear English Tories talk about renegotiating their (our!) relationship with the EU. Are they serious? The EU response will be s straight, “piss off”. And, they will take that advice and promptly take us out of Europe.

    Vote Yes, then we can tell English Tories to “piss off”.

  181. dramfineday says:

    It’s the gloating and sneering I find so depressing. I see it on the streets from ordinary folk too. A searing contempt of our ability to manage our own affairs. Sad really.

    But onwards and upwards, “nil carborundum etc”, as we say.

  182. Malcontent says:

    Another Bollocks Together fox is shot.
    We are clearly in.

  183. Luigi says:

    Morag Graham Kerr
    I wonder if Juncker had any idea at all when he made his comment, how it was going to be spun by the No lobby in Scotland (and in that I include the BBC, STV and all the daily newspapers). I think it’s quite likely it hadn’t occurred to him.

    On the other hand, Juncker may have known exactly what would happen. Given the carry-on with his Portuguese predcessor over Scotland and the EU, I would be very surprised if he is not up to speed on this.

    What better way to make Cameron’s BT look foolish than to make an ambiguous statement that could be (and was) taken against an independent Scotland in the EU, and then to publically refute BT’s interpretationi the very next day, leaving the BBC no choice but to drop a big bomb on their own side? As a previous poster remarked:

    Juncker 2 Cameron 0

  184. Bunter says:

    This Juncker stuff is really damaging to the Naws, running all over social media this morning the BBC earlier and a nice bit in The Herald.

    In business they say, if someone has a bad experience with a product they reckon they tell ten others. Same for the BT campaign I hope. What they sell stinks and if we keep spreading the evidence then it will gain huge traction.

  185. bookie from hell says:

    UKIP ,Tory

    Europe

    I’d love to be a fly on the wall,,to hear what EU leaders really think

    prob not printable

  186. JWil says:

    Douglas Aexander also jumped on this donkey of a story, getting his tuppence worth in too.

    You would think though that Mr Junkers would have been very clear on what he was saying in his first statement as he must know about the political situation in Scotland.

    Why did he not cover it effectively when opening his mouth in the first place? He should have been well aware that even if he corrected it afterwards the anti-independence press and their mob in the UK would have made a meal of it and would fail to make a wholesome apology to the public after Junkers denial that he was including Scotland in his exclusion statement. The cyber twats on the NO side and some in the press are still lying about Barroso’s gaff.

    Ms Smith on the BBC Scotland political programme last night did acknowledge that the rebuttal had been made, but how many viewers would have been viewing compared to the earlier news bulletins?

    I hope there will be no more faux pas like this from the EU.

  187. Cath says:

    each and every one of these put-downers will reappear wearing a YES PLEASE and saying they were behind it since the beggining.

    I really doubt that. They can’t help themselves. Many, if not most, of those who misprepresented Junker and took it as a gleeful thing Scotland might be kicked out and treated as a pariah state will be doing the same thing post yes.

    I don’t trust Labour, in particular, to respect the results and work for the good of Scotland after a Yes. I suspect they’ll be pushing for every single one of their scares to be made as true as possible, so they can say, “See we told you” and will possibly even attempt to go into the 2015 and 2016 elections fighting for any yes result to be overturned.

    They, and the media, will need to be watched as much after a yes as they do now.

  188. HandandShrimp says:

    There’s a problem there of course, on day one,if that came to pass, without any fishery protection vessels

    a2

    That isn’t the case though. Fishery protection is devolved and the Scottish Government have built and paid for modern fishery protection vessels. In addition the SFPA have air patrols which they charter from a private operator. The ships are based at Leith docks (although I think the air patrols are based in Inverness).

    Here is a nice picture of one.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c0/FPVJura.jpg/640px-FPVJura.jpg

  189. X_Sticks says:

    Cactus says:

    “X kinda sticks doesn’t it?”

    As long as it’s beside a Yes ;)

  190. JWil says:

    James Cook is to be commended for quickly disclosing the information on what Junkers said and meant. I hope he is making a stance which other BBC journalists will follow.

    I have noticed in two of Cook’s referendum debates he finished up with the question, “is the BBC biased” and tried to put the panel on the spot over it when he knows that the SNP especially don’t really want to get into this debate.

    This is a bit wicked and it looks like it is the BBC hierarchy which is putting him up to it. However, by mentioning bias it must be making some viewers ask themselves why this has been brought up at all.

  191. macart763m says:

    @Cath

    I agree. I doubt the either the press or Labour could be trusted to act in good faith with public trust for some time. Certainly at least until Labour voters and the left reclaim their party from the Tory lite leadership and place people currently running the show.

  192. JWil says:

    In the meantime corruption is rife down south with further disclosures about the suppression of investigations into child abuse. And so it goes on. What a mob we have to deal with.

  193. Luigi says:

    I wonder if the BBC’s surprise acknowledgement of the recent BT misinterpretation of an EU statement has anything to do with the fact that we are now in the official referendum campaign period.

    Are the BBC trying to demonstrate impartiality? If so, there is still a long way to go, but at least it’s a start!

  194. Fiona says:

    @JWil

    I do not think it is reasonable to expect Mr Juncker to have our situation at the forefront of his mind: in this I agree with Morag Kerr.

    The fact is that in the wider context the referendum is only one thing amongst many. It may even be that he is not aware that outright lies are normal for BT in this debate.

    To be honest I do not think that people outside the UK, who see this as an internal matter for the UK, should watch every word they say for possible use and distortion by BT and their pals. It gives them far to much power. This is for us to expose, as has been done. I do not think it has done the Yes side any harm at all: quite the reverse.

  195. Tony Armstrong says:

    Fiona.

    Juncker is well known for admitting lies are OK to win your case.

  196. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cactus says: 16 July, 2014 at 12:53 am:
    Indeedly, the present UK government REFUSES to ask a simple question regarding EU status on behalf of future iScotland.. that’s right up there with the current UK governments Prime Minister REFUSING to debate Scotland’s present First Minister. Not very TOGETHERLY.

    The European Union, (a.k.a “The Treaty of Maastricht”), was begun on 1 November 1993 and the United Kingdom were signatories on day one. Thus the United Kingdom joined the European Union as a founder member. We Scots, as citizens of the United Kingdom are thus founder members of the European Union.

    The United Kingdom joined, “The European Economic Community”, (a.k.a. The EEC), on 1 January 1973. The EEC is, however, a different treaty altogether than the EU and The EEC ended when the EU began.

    So here are my own personal thoughts on the matter : – As a fully paid up citizen of the European Union I must legally have all the same rights as any other citizen of the European Union and, as an EU citizen, I must have a legal right to demand to be told my EU citizens rights.

    Why then will this European Union that I am a citizen of NOT tell me personally if I will remain an EU citizen and my democratically elected Scottish Parliament be recognized as a member country of the European Union if it disunites the United Kingdom Parliament?

    I am a European Citizen and I demand to know my European citizens rights. I am the citizen – not the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Tell me my rights of citizenship.

  197. macart763m says:

    @MacCumhail

    You may find this document of use.

    http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Meeting%20Papers/Graham_Avery_Written_Evidence.pdf

    Section 5 as laid out by professor Avery particularly. It lays out quite clearly who is primarily responsible for official contact with the EU in any negotiation. Namely the current member state.

    5. Who would conduct the negotiations for EU membership on behalf of Scotland and how would the negotiations be managed?

    In the period before independence, the British government would represent Scotland in intergovernmental negotiations with other EU members.

    Also this by Sionaidh Douglas-Scott.

    http://gallery.mailchimp.com/3d8f589fda4fb7526a70254d4/files/e3c82843-2a9f-41af-a4e3-de3eeec55737.pdf

    Only three facts in the whole EU stooshie.

    1. Only the member state can approach the governing body and ask for rulings on INTERNAL questions or disputes.

    2. There is no clear precedent for the UK situation and basically one will be created in event of a yes vote.

    3. I don’t believe the EU has ever mentioned expulsion or suggested that Scotland will be somehow voluntarily expelling themselves by dissolving the treaty of political union. They HAVE clearly stated that they will respect the outcome of this peaceful, democratic process and take it from there. The two links I’ve provided should form the basis of the most likely outcomes.

  198. Joe M says:

    @ Cath (9:46)

    After a Yes vote there will be a savage, and very public, civil war within ScotLab as the soon to be redundant “big beasts” from WM will strive to push out the “lesser” constituency candidates and get themselves implanted into power in Holyrood.

    If they succeed then their blinkered SNP-hating mentality will know no bounds. They will be out for revenge and will seek to create the damage they have forecast for an iScotland, then survey the carnage and smugly boast “we told you so”. They will then go on to create an “upper house” to compensate themselves for their loss of HoL privileges.

    You are correct – they should not be trusted in iScotland’s formative years.

    I predict that the in-fighting after a Yes vote will tear Slab apart and two, or possibly more, parties will emerge. That should, I hope, split their vote and keep the “big beasts” from achieving power in Scotland.

  199. Robert Peffers says:

    @Grouse Beater says: 16 July, 2014 at 6:09 am
    “Unfortunately for Better Together, and this is something which has entirely slipped their minds, Scotland is already in the EU.”

    This is far from being the only unsubstantiated claim or mythical unsubstantiated belief the Unionists cling to and cannot ever justify.

    Here is a an incomplete list: –
    Country and kingdom are not mutually interchangeable terms.
    A country is a geographic term and a kingdom is the realm of a monarchy.
    Britain, England and the United Kingdom are not mutually interchangeable.
    Westminster is the seat of Her Majesty’s Government not of any political party.
    The United Kingdom Parliament is thus the parliament of a bipartite United Kingdom and not that of either the country of England nor the kingdom of England.
    The Treaty of Union united two equally sovereign kingdoms but The Kingdom of England in 1706/7 had annexed both Wales & all Ireland.
    It is NOT David Cameron’s government it belongs to her Majesty.
    There can be no such thing as an rUK after the bipartite UK parliament disunites as there is then on other kingdoms than England in union.

    The United Kingdom is the member State and a kingdom is a Royal Realm. The three country Kingdom of England is, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, but Scotland is a Kingdom in which the monarchy are not legally sovereign and thus Westminster has no legal sovereignty over the sovereign people of Scotland.

    The whole Unionist case is a pack of myth and lies.
    If we YES supporters were to call points of order every time the Unionists used the wrong term we cold stifle their entire case from the any meeting, including the HOC, forever.
    Picture a typical Westminster debate –
    Cameron gets to his feet and says, “Britain supports America in … Point of Order Mr Speaker The Right Honourable gentleman has no mandate to speak for Britain, he is but the Prime minister of the United Kingdom.
    Cameron begins again, “The United Kingdom Supports America” … Point of order Mr Speaker, the right Honourable gentleman has claimed that the United Kingdom supports America but America is a disparate collection of both countries and continents not by any means united in their support for anything.

    Cameron is particularly very prone to such ambiguous terms. He could be tied in knots. So what if the speaker does contend that the objectors are being pedantic? The terms being abused are wrong and do indeed give legs to arguments that otherwise could not walk.

  200. Jeannie says:

    My understanding is that when you are talking about a country which is already a member of the EU then short of a referendum to leave, there is no mechanism for taking away a citizen’s membership of the EU.

    A couple of scenarios arise – Scotland votes for independence and, although it is highly unlikely, is not allowed to join the EU. No matter – so long as we retain dual citizenship with rUK or whatever it calls itself and rUK stays in the EU, Scots would be able to retain their EU citizen rights via their dual citizenship.

    If Scotland is independent and it is agreed with the EU that Scotland remains a member, but rUK decides to leave, then again, depending on negotiations between rUK and Scotland, holders of dual citizenship (and their children) living south of the border should be able to retain their EU citizenship and therefore the rights that go with it.

    But I had a thought with regard to businesses – if Scotland is independent and stays within the EU and rUK comes out, could we see a number of busineses with headquarters down south transferring their headquarters to Scotland in order to take advantage of EU membership. And, if so, wouldn’t that be good for employment and tax-raising. And wouldn’t it allow Scots living in England and English people living in Scotland to have the “best of both worlds” – none of us would have to give up any citizen rights at all, whether here or in Europe.

    And, one more thing, if Scotland votes No and then there is a vote for the UK to come out of the EU, then would these businesses, both Scottish and UK, consider moving their headquarters to another nearby English-speaking country with existing agreements with the UK with respect to travel, etc. – in other words Ireland.

    It wouldn’t be the first time Scottish business opportunities were lost to Ireland. I could be wrong about this, but it was one of those “I was just thinking” moments. One way or another, it seems to me that the best way for Scottish businesses to protect their long-term interests and prosper is within an independent Scotland.

  201. Elizabeth says:

    Charles Kennedy misrepresented Juncker’s statement at prime Minister’s questions a few minutes ago and the PM warmly welcomed and repeated the lie with gusto. Absolutely disgraceful. Not surprised at Cameron but very disappointed at Kennedy. I used to have respect for him but no more. A chancer.

  202. Robert Peffers says:

    @HandandShrimp says: 16 July, 2014 at 9:54 am

    “That isn’t the case though. Fishery protection is devolved and the Scottish Government have built and paid for modern fishery protection vessels.”.

    Great information, Handandshrimp, but that was not the point I was making. Just that vessels can be equiped to suit a purpose but mainly that if the Westminster lot, the de facto parliament of England, refused us a negotiated share of the former United Kingdom’s assets, that we have already paid for, we have legal right to refuse to pay any share of THEIR national debt.

    Thus starting out with a clean sheet, a fine high GDP and enough cash to buy the very best real defence equipment in the World to fill the gap until we build our own.

  203. Hewitt83 says:

    I really am weary of these lies from Better Together and their media lapdogs.

    Battle weary.

    Please Scotland, see through these lies and vote Yes.

  204. Dougie Bee says:

    Maybe Mr Junkers aint as daft as some people make him out..he probably made this statement knowing full well that WM and the Naysayers would jump at it and make a meal out of it..then say that it did not mean Scotland at all…give them enough rope..you know the rest…super cool is Mr Junker..one up his *ahem*friend Mr Cameron…xxx

  205. Robert Peffers says:

    @Elizabeth says: 16 July, 2014 at 12:28 pm
    “Charles Kennedy misrepresented Juncker’s statement at prime Minister’s questions a few minutes ago and the PM warmly welcomed and repeated the lie with gusto. Absolutely disgraceful. Not surprised at Cameron but very disappointed at Kennedy. I used to have respect for him but no more. A chancer.

    Indeed you are correct, Elizabeth. I agree with everything you say – Well except for what you called Charlie Kennedy, I’m not about to print in public what I yelled at the TV as I watched PMQs

  206. Wull says:

    Jeannie refers to ‘rUK or whatever it calls [will call] itself’. They can’t call themselves UK without Scotland, unless there are two independent UK’s – the UK of Scotland and the other UK. But then ‘the other UK’ won’t be able to call itself the ‘rest of the UK’ any more … The rest of something is not that ‘something’. And they will not be the ‘rest’ of Scotland either.

    I suggest they call themselves NIEW UK, or UK NIEW, or UK of NIEW. NI = Northern Ireland, E = England, and W = Wales. NIEW will be pronounced ‘new’. So, the same as we hope for a new Scotland, they too will get something new, which they badly need and which, I am sure, most of their citizens desire. Out with the old, in with the new (or NIEW)!

    Most Yes voters won’t need the UK bit in UKS (United Kingdom of Scotland), but then there will still be plenty who voted ‘no’ and some of them, at least, might like it. So why not accommodate them?

    Pragmatically, the advantage might be that it will demonstrate that there are TWO continuing states from the old UK. now defunct. Scotland (UKS)will therefore ‘inherit’ all the treaty arrngements ‘club memberships’ etc. that belonged to the Old UK, just as the NIEW UK to the south and west of us will do. That would solve many problems ….

  207. Derek M says:

    I like this bloke Junker a lot better than the last one who had an agenda ie Catalonia,plus it is a fact he dislikes the UK government and sees them as surplus to requirements in the EU hence Cameron trying to stop him getting the job ,and you cant blame him the sheer arrogance of the UK government over many years towards the EU parliament is appalling ,they disregard EU law,seek to model the EU on UK terms,have been engaged in economic warfare with the single currency ,been caught spying on EU leaders.i imagine the EU will loose no sleep over the UK government leaving and as an added bonus Scotland will remain part of the EU after independence.
    Maybe we should just bite the bullet and tell the UK to shove the pound up their arse and join the single currency once we have extracted ourselves from them,because it is not as bad as the UK propaganda machine make it out to be and might be a better option for us in the long term.

  208. Lou Nisbet says:

    Re – the BBC. I fail to understand how people fail to understand the significance to the BBC of £240 Million PA in licence fees. The likely fact that every BBC broadcaster in Scotland will be summarily sacked shortly after YES does much to motivate the QP scoundrels I am sure.

    No matter how much you wish they would be unbiased they have 240 million reasons per year and their own individual salaries to protect and nothing you could possibly say or do will counter that reality. It’s just another Union benefit.

  209. Fiona says:

    If this lie, now debunked, can be repeated in Westminster at PMQ’s then we have a problem, I think. More people will hear what is said at PMQ’s than here or even in the press. And that worries me. I have no idea what we can do about Westminster politicians who tell such lies in such a well reported forum. Sure we can do word of mouth and we have some support in this instance from the press and, obviously the internet helps. But for every repetition of such a lie how many doors do we need to chap? It ain’t easy countering the daily lies in face to face interaction: they generate them faster than we can counter them and they are shameless in using their platform

    This depresses me

  210. Cod says:

    Daily Record just put up an article pointing out the falsity of the BT claims on this issue.

    Someone should have a word with the Record – this is not the first time they have printed something which goes against the No camp claims. Someone might accuse them of doing actual journalism if they keep it up!

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/no-campaign-accused-twisting-comments-3864102

  211. Cactus says:

    @Robert Peffers ~ Aye, aye second your 10:33.. what are our basic rights of citizenship Mr Juncker? As the new chair, you now have a duty to inform the citizens of International pre iScotland directly.

  212. JWil says:

    @Fiona

    I hear what you are saying. However, the NO side, (as is their won’t), even after this rebuttal by the EU, are interpreting the new statement in a totally different way to the Yes side. The No side think that it is because Scotland is not in the queue for accession yet that Junkers office can say it was not about Scotland. So it’s still open house to say anything they want.

    If the EU do not want to be accused of interfering in the democratic process and in the internal affairs of another member state, they have to be fully aware of the consequences of what they are saying.

  213. Duggie says:

    “of “no new enlargement” in the next five years (which wouldn’t apply to Scotland, as Scotland joining in its own right would leave the EU exactly the same size it is now).”

    Complete and utter nonsense. There are currently 28 EU member states, Scotland become an EU member state would make 29.

    A two year old child would be able to tell you that 29 is not ‘exactly the same size’ as 28.

    If you’re unable to do even the most basic maths you really ought to refrain from trying to analyse more complex issues.

  214. Duggie says:

    Juncker: “no new enlargement”

    EU member states currently: 28

    EU member states if Scotland becomes one: 29

    That’s called an ‘enlargement’.

  215. Duggie says:

    “his view is that an independent Scotland would be rubber-stamped straight in.”

    This problem with this claim is that EU member states are required to have access to a central bank.

    As the currency union has been rejected by the UK, and the SNP have utterly failed to bother planning for own Scottish currency even as a Plan B option (despite real independence parties like the Greens pressing them to do so), it is therefore very unlikely Scotland will have a central bank after independence.

    No central bank = no EU membership

  216. Duggie says:

    “Deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon said the No camp had “wilfully twisted” Mr Juncker’s words and demanded an apology. She said: “This blatant act of dishonesty is a major blow to the credibility of the No campaign.”

    Sturgeon’s not really in a position to complain about ‘blatant dishonesty’ in regard to the EU, given the fact that she blatantly lied to the people of Scotland when telling a Scottish Parliament Committee that Scotland would “automatically” become an EU member after independence with “no” need to even bother negotiating with the EU first – a position she claimed was backed up by copious legal evidence (which of course never materialised because it didn’t exist).

  217. X_Sticks says:

    @Duggie the troll

    “given the fact that she blatantly lied to the people of Scotland when telling a Scottish Parliament Committee that Scotland would “automatically” become an EU member after independence with “no” need to even bother negotiating with the EU first”

    You’ll have the evidence to back that up, of course. Care to share it?

  218. thoughtsofascot says:

    And we see Duggie still playing with the same old scare stories. Another day, another recycle. Rinse repeat. Throw the boomerang, get hit by the rebounding boomerang.

    Let us all know when you’ve finally realised that you’re doing nothing but beating yourself up with the same old boomerang.

  219. Helena Brown says:

    Have you actually read what Mr Juncker said Duggie? Once you have actually read HIS words and not what has been reported other than on the BBC. You may have to eat those rather nasty words.

  220. Duggie says:

    “You’ll have the evidence to back that up, of course. Care to share it?”

    I’ve already shared it on here previously but okay if you insist:

    Sturgeon: “it is the clear view of the Scottish National Party and the Government that Scotland would AUTOMATICALLY be a member of the European Union upon independence. There is legal opinion to back that up. I do not think that the legal position is in any doubt”

    Irene Oldfather: “The minister said that Scotland would automatically become a member of the European Union?”

    Nicola Sturgeon: “Indeed I did”

    Irene Oldfather: “You would not require to renegotiate?”

    Nicola Sturgeon: “No”

    http://archive.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/europe/or-07/eu07-0902.htm

  221. Duggie says:

    “And we see Duggie still playing with the same old scare stories”

    What ‘scare stories’ am I apparently ‘playing’ with?

    Are you seriously suggesting that the official position of the UK is merely a ‘scare story’ that can be safely ignored?

    Its your kind, and the party you worship, who are potentially putting the future of Scotland into serious danger by ignoring the official position of the UK that there won’t be a currency union, based entirely on the personal opinion of some random unknown minister who probably won’t even be in power when the negotiations take place.

  222. Duggie says:

    “Have you actually read what Mr Juncker said Duggie?”

    I have. I read everything he said, including the part where, as this article quotes him, there would be “no new enlargement” of the EU over the next 5 years.

    Unlike the author of the article, who appears to think going from 28 to 29 member states would apparently leave the EU ‘exactly the same size’, I can do maths (to a limited extent), so I know differently.

  223. Duggie says:

    “Debunked some time ago”

    Well no, it hasn’t been ‘debunked’ given the fact I’ve just provided indisputable evidence of Sturgeon lying to the people of Scotland (via a Scottish Parliament committee) and claiming that Scotland would “automatically” be an EU member after independence with “no” need to even negotiate first.

    So your wee links which you claim ‘debunk’ the indisputable evidence from the Scottish Parliament website which I’ve provided are either ill-informed or lying.

  224. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Well no, it hasn’t been ‘debunked’ given the fact I’ve just provided indisputable evidence of Sturgeon lying to the people of Scotland (via a Scottish Parliament committee) and claiming that Scotland would “automatically” be an EU member after independence with “no” need to even negotiate first.”

    That’s not “indisputable evidence”, of course.

    (a) For all any of us know it may turn out to be true. It hasn’t happened yet.

    (b) Even if it doesn’t, she may well have believed it at the time – there is plenty of expert advice arguing the case – and therefore at worst she’d be WRONG, not LYING.

    You’re boring.

  225. pete the camera says:

    All this worry about losing TV programs like Eastenders Holby city and the others, well its good news to me, getting rid a load of winging soaps leaving more room for wall to wall Mrs Brown

  226. Capella says:

    @ Fiona
    I agree. AFAIK lying to Parliament is a hanging offence. The SNP MPs can take it up with the Speaker.
    As for getting the truth out to people, the YES campaign of town hall meetings and door-to-door canvassing should knock a dent in the MSM propaganda. Once people realise they are lying, which must be pretty common knowledge by now, then nothing else they say will carry any weight.

  227. pete the camera says:

    boys

  228. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Unlike the author of the article, who appears to think going from 28 to 29 member states would apparently leave the EU ‘exactly the same size’, I can do maths (to a limited extent), so I know differently.”

    28 and 29 are numbers, not sizes. 28 feet or 29 cubic metres are sizes. The SIZE of the EU, in feet or cubic metres, would remain exactly the same if Scotland were to become an independent member.

  229. Capella says:

    Also, re Juncker’s comments, Chris Darroch at 8:40 pm pointed out that this is what he was likely referring to.
    http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2014&mm=07&dd=09&nav_id=90918
    The BBC and PM should be as aware of this as we are. I think Stu and co should submit an invoice for research services.

  230. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    Perhaps reading all of that particular debate might be better rather than simply repeating a snippet which highlights what was meant by “renegotiate”.

    If it implies needing to negotiate a way into the EU then that is what Sturgeon is disputing.

    She goes on to agree that there would be [re]negotiation as far as splitting the existing UK treaty between it’s successors. Whilst the HoL might use the term continuator in reference to the rUK it’s worth remembering that Russia only got that status in regard to the USSR via negotiation. If the EU decide it’s in it’s combined interests to treat Scotland and the rUK equally then that’s up to them.

  231. Duggie says:

    “28 and 29 are numbers, not sizes. 28 feet or 29 cubic metres are sizes. The SIZE of the EU, in feet or cubic metres, would remain exactly the same if Scotland were to become an independent member.”

    Nice try. But when Juncker talks about “no new enlargement” of the EU he’s obviously referring to enlargement in terms of the number of its members, not in terms of it enlarging by adding feet or metres.

    So when you responded to his claim by suggesting it ‘wouldn’t apply to Scotland’ because Scotland becoming an EU member would apparently leave the EU ‘exactly the same size’, you were either confused about Juncker’s point or being a wee bit disingenuous.

  232. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    Is it possible to lie to parliament when they all know you’re speaking bullshit?

  233. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    When the person who is alleged to be the source of a quote say’s you’re miss-representing what he said perhaps it’d be wise to accept that?

  234. thoughtsofascot says:

    Are you seriously suggesting that the official position of the UK is merely a ‘scare story’ that can be safely ignored?

    Its your kind, and the party you worship, who are potentially putting the future of Scotland into serious danger by ignoring the official position of the UK that there won’t be a currency union, based entirely on the personal opinion of some random unknown minister who probably won’t even be in power when the negotiations take place.

    If you have been paying *any* attention at all (Which is unlikely, given that your comments are obsolete by around 3-6 months) You’ll have noticed that labour have been moving the goalposts and have now started to use the comments about Westminster being open to negotiation to beat the Yes campaign over the head with, by fearmongering that Alex Salmond(always Salmond!) will give up the SNPs commitment to getting rid of the nukes, for the currency union. Clearly Labour think the government are BS-ing with their hardline stance, despite the apparent “agreement” between the 3 parties.
    Need a source? http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b049dyhz/the-referendum-debate-08072014

    Go cry. Now.

    And excuse me? “Your kind”? Explain yourself.

  235. macart763m says:

    @Duggie

    “So your wee links which you claim ‘debunk’ the indisputable evidence from the Scottish Parliament website which I’ve provided are either ill-informed or lying.”

    Neither as far as I can see. I think the Rev has covered my own view quite well in his response.

    Nicola Sturgeon is either mistaken and therefore wrong. Or may well yet be proven right by events.

    Proving that she knowingly and deliberately mislead parliament and the people of Scotland is an entirely different matter and a very serious allegation.

    Can you prove that Nicola Sturgeon deliberately and with premeditation lied to parliament and the Scottish electorate?

  236. thoughtsofascot says:

    Duggie doesn’t do wisdom, Iain. Its “Hurr Durr Nashionalishts are evil liars” or nothing with him

  237. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Groan.

    Nothing like a troll, even one with a point, taking time off those who really can’t be bothered with it just to shift the question onto a point he believes he can win.

    People, just don’t engage with trolls. Don’t. Do not. It achieves NOTHING. You responding shifts the thread where the troll wants it to go. Stop playing with it.

    Duggie, just in case you’ve forgotten, this thread started with the actual position of the EU. Not the one Sturgeon somewhat unwisely claimed, and not the one your chums in Better Together managed to extrapolate and which the UK Government, in spite of it being several hours after the clarification from Mr Junckers office that it was nothing to do with Scotland, continues to peddle as though no one has noticed it is a pack of lies.

    Not what you would like it to be.

    How are you fundamentally unable to criticise the frequent lies of your side simply to concentrate on ONE example of misguided answering from ours? Your people lie like cheap watches; all the bloody time.

  238. John Young says:

    I have a bar of chocolate, lucky me. I break some squares off. I now have more pieces than I had before but my bar is not larger.

  239. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Nice try. But when Juncker talks about “no new enlargement” of the EU he’s obviously referring to enlargement in terms of the number of its members, not in terms of it enlarging by adding feet or metres.”

    Ah, “obviously”. Clearly you know his mind well. What are you, nephew? Cousin? Close personal confidante?

    Here’s the context of his statement:

    http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2014&mm=07&dd=09&nav_id=90918

    “Juncker denied that he had called for a full stop of the enlargement process, but that he was merely being realistic and that there were clear requirements for getting the candidate status and accession.”

    Requirements Scotland already meets in full, of course.

  240. Duggie says:

    “Ah, “obviously”. Clearly you know his mind well”

    Yes obviously. And I don’t need to know his ‘mind’, just to read what he said:

    “There will be no new enlargement in the next five years. The EU needs to mark a pause in its enlargement process so that we can consolidate what has been done with 28″

    28 obviously refers to the number of EU members, as I said, rather than to enlargement in terms of feet or metres.

    “Requirements Scotland already meets in full, of course”

    Apart from the requirement to have access to a central bank, which based on the current position of the UK parties and the SNP’s failure to plan for a Scottish currency it will not have, of course.

  241. Capella says:

    Chris Darroch at the start of this thread, posted a link to Juncker’s remarks about the accession of the Baltic States taking about 5years. NO campaigners are clearly misrepresenting his comments and pretending they are somehow related to Scotland, even after Juncker himself has explicitly stated that his comments have nothing to do with Scotland.
    http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2014&mm=07&dd=09&nav_id=90918
    As someone up the thread noted, the headline should read “Blow for Poroshenko”.
    As an exercise in spin, this is a text book case. James Cook knows it, we now know it, thanks to this blog. Soon almost everyone will know it. Another nail is hammered into the coffin of Westminster credibility.

  242. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Noticed that The Times had the original story on the front page. Any apology?

  243. Auld Rock says:

    You know I’m getting thoroughly p****d off with all this EU nonsense. I’m now starting to feel that if they don’t want all that we bring, high quality farm and fish products, oil and gas, renewables etc then let’s just tell them to get stuffed there are plenty of other markets that would welcome our products. But I bet you that there would be riots in the fishing ports along the Atlantic Coast when they found themselves slung out of our fishing grounds on their arses and it wouldn’t be too long before Brussels came begging!!!

    Auld Rock

  244. Fiona says:

    @ Auld Rock

    Please remember that none of this is actually coming from the EU at all: it is coming from unionists. They are prepared to say anything to further their cause and it is not the EU who are to be criticised for that.

  245. MacCumhail says:

    @macart763m

    Thanks for the links, I have also mailed Europe Direct and will post any response.

  246. MacCumhail says:

    Also a big thanks to Rev. Stu for the great work he does here.

  247. Derek M says:

    hey Duggie or should i maybe call you Ad Lib fuck off back to pie and bovril you twat your rumbled.

  248. Derek M says:

    or is that the other clown from there H_B its hard to tell as they both talk some pure garbage if any of you want a laugh you should go read some of the pure drivel they spout out everyday.

  249. Auld Rock says:

    Fiona, I know what you say is true but as I said their negativity and lying really does my head in. However just wait to hear them all changing their tunes when the ‘YES’ win is confirmed on Sept 19th. But in negotiations we must stand our ground with fUK and the EU, to obtain what is fair and reasonable.

    Auld Rock

  250. macart763m says:

    @MacCunhail

    Any time.

    Hope they are of help.

  251. Cod says:

    @Duggie

    Duggie, Duggie, Duggie. Look, nobody needs to reply to you. All that needs to be said is read the three tweets at the top of the page. Those words are direct from Juncker’s aide to your ears: he wasn’t talking about Scotland.

    It can’t be made any clearer than that. And really, if you can take that to mean anything other than the statement he’d made earlier was nothing to do with Scotland, did not include Scotland, and was not aimed at Scotland, then you need to take a reading comprehension test.

    As for you arguments regarding currency union: do you really believe there would be no agreement on a currency union with an independent Scotland? Really? You actually think that a Westminster government could survive the massive hit to the rUK economy and the credit rating of the rUK which would come from having to assume responsibility for the entire national debt of the current UK (which would be a result of no sharing of assets = no sharing of debt)? And that’s before you even get to dealing with the cost to English businesses.

    It would be a cast iron disaster for whoever was in power in Westminster, and they know it – which is why ministers from Westminster have already said, off the record, that there would in fact be negotiations.

    Scotland doesn’t need an alternative plan for currency anyway – it is perfectly legal for Scotland to continue to use the pound, regardless of agreement with Westminster. In fact, at least one Nobel winning economist thinks we’d be better off doing so, and linking the pound to a floating basket of currencies. So you’re entire currency argument is invalid.

    But, then, you already know that, don’t you? Which is why you’re grasping at straws, trying to claim Sturgeon deliberately lied about EU membership. Muddy the waters a little bit, eh? Not going to work, I’m afraid.

  252. Duggie says:

    “You actually think that a Westminster government could survive the massive hit to the rUK economy and the credit rating of the rUK which would come from having to assume responsibility for the entire national debt of the current UK (which would be a result of no sharing of assets = no sharing of debt)?”

    A system of currency is not an ‘asset’, so rUK have no obligation to agree to a currency union in return for Scotland taking our share of the debt.

    “Scotland doesn’t need an alternative plan for currency anyway – it is perfectly legal for Scotland to continue to use the pound, regardless of agreement with Westminster”

    Of course its legal, we can continue to use the pound unofficially outside a currency union if we want.

    But the point is that if we do so we will not have access to a central bank.

    No central bank = no EU membership.

    “trying to claim Sturgeon deliberately lied about EU membership”

    That’s not a ‘claim’, its a fact. As I’ve already proved.

    Try again.

  253. Cod says:

    Duggie – clearly you don’t understand the difference between the pound as a currency and Sterling (along with the Bank of England) as an asset. Which is why your argument is wrong.

    Further, ministers from Westminster (and Ministers who would actually be involved in any negotiations, no less) have already said there would be negotiations. Therefore no need for a Scottish central bank. Anyone who really thinks that Westminster would actually enforce a ban on currency union is dreaming. More likely they would try and use it to negotiate concessions on things like the nuke subs being kept in Scotland for a few years.

    And we’ve already covered the Sturgeon point. If she was wrong then she was wrong. That’s a long way from “deliberately lied”, unless you are willing to claim that everyone who has ever been wrong about a claim they have made was deliberately lying. And her claims, incorrect or otherwise, are irrelevant, seeing as we’ve moved on from there. You’re now trying to claim that Junckers statement means no entry to the EU for Scotland, despite the fact he reiterated, quite clearly, he was not talking about Scotland, and he wasn’t including Scotland.

    You go ahead and vote no. Hopefully, when we get a Yes vote, you won’t choke on your bitterness.

  254. Duggie says:

    “clearly you don’t understand the difference between the pound as a currency and Sterling (along with the Bank of England) as an asset”

    Sadly its you who doesn’t understand. A system of currency is not an asset, as is clearly established under international law – sterling is not an asset, the institution that oversees the system of currency is not an asset.

    “ministers from Westminster (and Ministers who would actually be involved in any negotiations, no less)”

    Which ministers have apparently said there will be any negotiations on a currency union?

    Surely you’re not referring to the unknown anonymous minister (singular) who was expressing his personal opinion and who is (allegedly) a certain Lib Dem who therefore almost certainly will not be involved in any negotiations?!

    “More likely they would try and use it to negotiate concessions on things like the nuke subs being kept in Scotland for a few years.”

    They might indeed, but the SNP have claimed that is ‘non negotiable’.

    Are they lying?



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