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Wings Over Scotland


In concrete boots

Posted on February 18, 2017 by

From today’s Herald:

heraldbae

It seems a good time to bring up another piece of our poll data.

promisespoll

The “Yes” column, of course, won’t come as much of a surprise. But the fact that 44% of No voters believe most (29%) or all (15%) of the No campaign’s promises to have been broken is perhaps rather more of an eye-opener.

Overall, 60% of Scots think that most or all of what “Better Together” promised them turned out to be lies. We can’t help thinking that might come to be significant over the next couple of years.

btshipb

doomgloom

lamontships

reidships

lamontreidsarwarships

reidships2

aajuz2fo

davidsonships

lamontshipsh

mcdougships

We’ll be sure to help people remember.

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  1. 19 02 17 11:43

    In concrete boots - Talking Drum

  2. 21 02 17 11:26

    In concrete boots | My Favourite Sites | Scoop...

311 to “In concrete boots”

  1. Croompenstein says:

    Calling Gary Smith , Colin Ripley and Phil Robertson what say you boys

  2. Donald MacKenzie says:

    The really frustrating thing is that John Reid went in there not giving a damn about the people he claimed to be so concerned about. All he wanted to do was maintain the status quo and ensure the ‘establishment’ was not rocked.

    How dishonest and deceitful.

  3. Matt Seattle says:

    It’s as if BT knew all along about all the bad stuff that was going to happen anyway, and used it to scare, confident that Scotland would be powerless after the No vote.

  4. galamcennalath says:

    Hardcore NOs might agree that promises haven’t been honoured, but that’s fine, because the lies saved their Union. That Union is of such importance to them that any means justifies the end.

    For soft NOs, they know they were manipulated and conned. Next time it won’t be so easy.

    Among all these questions and percentages lie lots of little reasons for optimism.

  5. George S Gordon says:

    And Leasky send to be suggesting all the above is but a figment of Yesser imaginations.

    Turns out even the No’s think we were sold not just a pup – more like 101 Dalmatians!

  6. Tartan Tory says:

    “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” – George W. Bush

    He screwed-up the quote, but it all seems very apt. I recall having protracted ‘discussions’ with a No voting Clydesider about this a couple of years ago.

    It would almost be amusing if it wasn’t so serious.

    When will they ever learn. 🙁

  7. Sinky says:

    Given the publicity the BBC gave to the shipyard workers surprised at the non coverage by the BBC of this latest Better Together broken promise.

    Meanwhile both Scotsman and BBC going big on cost of Scottush government submission to Supreme Court but fail to mention that UK Gov refused to give cost of their predictable flawed appeal despite several FOI requests.

    Its what they don’t report that highlights the bias of BBC / MSM

  8. winifred mccartney says:

    44% of no voters don’t think promises have been kept – at last the penny is dropping, its like scales falling from your eyes, once you start to notice and be informed you cannot go back. It happened for me some time ago when I was at a demonstration and then saw it reported on the bbc and could not believe I had been at the same protest. It is a trust thing and the unionist trust is gone well and truly – we are on our way and as someone on here said in ten years time 5m people in Scotland will claim to have voted YES.

  9. That would be Lord Reid, former Secretary of Sate for Northern Ireland a “great Irish Republican Socialist”. Like the rest Royal, Loyalists, of the Sellick Board and Sir Rod Stewart he is one of the British State’s greatest assets.

  10. Helpmaboab says:

    These, ahem, “less-than-entirely-honest” claims were made in the expectation that they’d be long forgotten by the time the independence question was next raised.

    Unfortunately for Britain’s loyal propagandists the next referendum will occur while their deception is still fresh in the national memory. Their new campaign of misinformation will thus be received with extreme mistrust.

    Is it any wonder that Labour, the Tories etc all in such a permanent panic?

  11. cal says:

    60% of voters in Scotland believe most or all of the promises made have not been kept. So how come only 46% support independence? Clearly voters are no longer basing their decision on how to vote on any discernable logical thought process. What the hell is going on in people’s heads?! Hopefully, there’s just a time delay and voters will join the dots.

  12. Marcia says:

    I am finding it difficult to think of any promise that was kept.

  13. heedtracker says:

    Never trust a tory, red or blue.

  14. gerry parker says:

    T T @9:24.
    I don’t know if you recall John at Arbroath one guy passing the Wings stall and shouting ” Ha Ha yez hivnae a chance of winnin, yezzl never get intaeEurope anyway if yez do.”

    I often wonder what he thinks about being dragged out of it now, although “thought” might be a bit strong a process to describe what goes on in his head.

  15. John Jones says:

    Watched our “Tone” telling all the population to rise up as they were not aware that they were being lied to in the brexite referendum!
    Does this not also apply to the Scottish one?
    Is our ” Tone ” going to campaign on our behalf too? On second thoughts perhaps better not!

  16. msean says:

    Looks like voting no is shutting shipyards.

  17. Tartan Tory says:

    @gerry parker

    I recall several taunts that day. A yoon driving past in his VW Golf who thought 2014 was all about football.

    As you say, using the term ‘thought’ with a degree of aprehension! 😉

  18. Thomas Valentine says:

    Hopefully the leader and deputy of The Scottish Conservative and Labour Party, Ruth and Kizzie, will save these jobs to score political points.

  19. galamcennalath says:

    Marcia says:

    I am finding it difficult to think of any promise that was kept.

    I love a good challenge!

    How about, The Vow finished by saying “A No vote will deliver faster, safer and better change than separation”

    Better change? Nope.

    Safer change? Hell, NO!

    Faster change? Hmmm, perhaps! 🙂

  20. Brus MacGallah says:

    That’s BARON Reid you plebs, but of course he should be addressed as SIR John. As in Hey, Sur John, get tae…

  21. HandandShrimp says:

    Like Marcia I am struggling to think of a single pledge or promise the No side made that looks like coming to pass.

    We on the Yes side urged caution at the time saying that the pledges were not in the gift of people like Reid or Lamont to make. I have every confidence that their excuse will be that these decisions are wrong but outwith their control. It will also be said with barely a backward glance or a moment’s regret.

  22. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Even now, 47% of “no” voters think that “most” promises have been kept?! =gulp=

    What alternate reality are they living in? I can’t think of any. (Well, roadsigns, maybe. Was that specifically promised?)

    Further enlightenment still sorely needed here, it seems.

    A free DVD from Phantom Power Films through letterboxes, eventually?

    After the “phoney war”, when Brexit looms for real?

  23. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    All those graphics in the Rev’s article indicate to me, strongly, that there are a number on the NO side in 2014, who were/are still living in ‘the olden days’, when, if you wanted to find out what somebody had said wherever, you would toddle off to the local library to spend hours sifting through back copies of newspapers – and who was ever bothered enough to do that?

    Now, we have the web, and the stuff we seek is mere milliseconds away, after a search on Google or whatever.

    The thing is, how can the purveyors of the ‘false news’ from 2013/2014 get round their utterances? Answer: they can’t but the word has to be spread, by Twitter, Facebook, and face-to-face.

    It’s still uphill but we’re getting there…

  24. Ghillie says:

    My heart breaks for our Scottish shipbuilding.

    Everything we foresaw is coming true.

    I hope and pray that more and more No voters find the courage to adjust their thinking and change their allegience.

    60% of Scots and 44% off No voters seeing that the BT campaign didnot keep their much vaunted ‘promises’ is indeed encouraging. Especialy as that is in spite of the dishonest and highly Unionist media.

    In the long term, I do expect Scotland’s shipbuilding to recover and flourish in an Independent Scotland that will be needing a plethora of vessels, both military and civil.

    But for now, this is devestating news for many a family.

  25. Adam says:

    Interesting piece thanks. This will surprise absolutely nobody. BTW if you want a laugh I recommend this funny piece on Alex Salmond thinking he can ‘smell and Englishman’ http://www.thesparkmagazine.co.uk/uk/alex-salmond-thinks-he-can-smell-an-englishman/

  26. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    In case anyone doubts Tartan Tory’s credentials (as has happened in the past), here’s a pic of his car at Arbroath Seafest, August 2014.

    https://i.imgur.com/g6g7jtC.jpg

  27. Ghillie says:

    How do Ruth and Kezia sleep at night?
    (upside down, hanging onto the rafters perhaps)

    Is Joanne Lamont happy with herself?

    Could this be a game changer for more prominent no figures?

    Bloody well should be!

  28. Muscleguy says:

    I wonder how exactly how many votes are dependent of the shipbuilding in Glasgow since the great decline in shipbuilding there.

  29. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    HandandShrimp @ 22:10:

    I have every confidence that their excuse will be that these decisions are wrong but outwith their control.

    Ah, the old Gove Gambit.

    Pshaw! Toss “federalism” into the wastebasket then. Together with all the other upcoming empty promises. What will any of them be worth? Less than the toilet paper they’ll be written on, with predictable post-result use, just like last time.

    Fool me once… (not that they ever did that with me, actually)…

  30. Johnny says:

    Robert J Sutherland:

    I doubt 47% really believe that – but they need to tell themselves they do, because otherwise they’d have to admit they made an error in trusting Better Together (and they may wish to avoid belated buyer’s remorse). The sad thing is that if they are not yet ready for this admission, it’s unlikely they will be ready to learn anything from the experience.

    Those No voters who do think the promises have been broken are another matter however….

    On the subject of this story here and people saying not much about it on TV news. May and co have been pretty quiet which is very suspicious. Our media, which normally can’t help droning on ad naseum about the UK’s ‘great and good’ is ignoring the government, asking little.

    In this, they have willingly fixated on another country’s elected head to a ridiculous degree – the Trump palaver has been very bloody convenient for hogging the news with. Makes one wonder what bad news the Tories are burying best they can in the meantime….like the story above.

  31. gerry parker says:

    Was out on a mission today and spoke to some great people still exited and enthusiastic about independence. Will be speaking with more in the coming weeks as we get started on the Local elections campaign.
    Sore but happy feet.
    Liz g.
    18 sigs and climbing.

  32. heedtracker says:

    Ghillie says:
    18 February, 2017 at 10:27 pm
    My heart breaks for our Scottish shipbuilding.

    Its been dead and gone for decades. Up and down the Clyde there are still the remnants of huge dry docks and ship yards but its like archaeology now, shopping centres and leisure centres. North Sea oil and gas expro could have turned it all around, the evolution from giant Clyde built tankers and cruise ships to even bigger production jackets and top sides. Our imperial masters had other plans. And we let them.

  33. John H. says:

    When I worked in the shipyards I was told by a manager that a LLoyds inspector had said that the Clyde built warships were by far the best in Britain. Either the other yards have learned from us, or quality is going to suffer if the work is taken south.

  34. Croompenstein says:

    FFS if we legitimise their wee shit country by giving them a news hour who knows where it will lead. 😀

    https://twitter.com/newsundayherald/status/833082503028146176

  35. Simon Curran says:

    I wonder what those trade unionists have got to say in response to the Herald article? Honourable men admit they get things wrong. Anyone heard from Mr McPherson or Mr Dolan?

  36. yesindyref2 says:

    Having been 20 frigates under the FCS program, amended to 18 then 13 under the GCS with 8 to take a lot of kit from the T23 plus 5 T27s, it’s gone down to 8 T26 and 5 T31 which might not even be part of the GCS, and could even have a different design concept. Added to that I don’t think the kit from the T23 is going to be so useful any more, I think changes in spec which might include the Mark 41 Vertical Launching System (Mk 41 VLS), plus changes in the operating system which will be on the new OPVs, might make that redundant. The missiles themselves will be OK – hence the Mk41. Which means no or little transfer of kit from the T23s, which would probably have been a job for the Clyde.

    The Clyde via BaE would be allowed to tender for the T31 in competition from – well, anywhere in the world now I think, Brexit is changing a lot of things, and the fool Fallon has already said he wants warship building to be all over the UK, in fact it’s in the SDSR but not in the terms of his unguarded prattle. Bring back Hammond he was competent as defence secretary. But why the UK any more? The Eurofighter is assembled near Preston, but the hulls built in Italy. Much of the warships could be built – anywere in the world.

    So BaE is down to 8, right? Well, who knows, even the contract for the initial 3 isn’t signed and blotted yet, and there’s talk of sections being made elsewhere similar to the QE carriers. It could be that the Clyde will do little more than assemble and fit out the final 5 if they ever get ordered – maybe even the first 3, who knows.

    Meanwhile I think it’s almost certain the 2009 ToBA the MOD had with BaE has been cancelled for the OPV builds, and perhaps the limited first order of the T26 (3 of them if it comes off). So no guarantee of future work for BaE if true.

    So BaE are looking at investing money for – what? Potentially not a lot, compared to the initial full order they expected for 13 FF. And they have other fish to topedo in the rest of the world, the US for example.

    Meanwhile May goes off to the US and gets pally with Trump – and the US. Betrayal is being kind to the UK Government.

    In all fairness, even an impartial defence observer should come to one conclusion about warship building on the Clyde, and one conclusion only. It has no future without Independence for Scotland. None.

  37. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi heedtracker says at 10:42 pm.

    “Up and down the Clyde there are still the remnants of huge dry docks and ship yards but its like archaeology now…”

    In the days when the docks in Dundee were still run by the Harbour Trust, they built a ‘roll on-roll off’ facility at the docks, adjacent to the ‘Fish Dock’ (24 hour access), which functioned for a short period.

    The docks were then taken over by Forth Ports and the RO-RO facility was not seen to be of any use. It is still there, as can be seen at this link (zoom out to get your bearings):-

    https://goo.gl/maps/qxqAk5ghzgm

  38. heedtracker says:

    http://www.norway.gr/News_and_events/Business/The-Norwegian-maritime-industry/#.WKjPzTuLTIU

    The Norwegian maritime industry
    Norway has been a major player in shipping for more than 150 years. This small country on the fringe of Europe, which has less than a thousandth of the world’s population, controls one of the world’s largest merchant fleets.

    What’s more, the numerous and varied maritime activities that have grown up around traditional shipping operations enjoy strong and often leading positions in the international market. The Norwegian Government’s vision is for Norway to be among the world’s leading maritime nations and a supplier of the most innovative and environmentally friendly solutions for the future.”

    Scotland’s a maritime island for f’s sake. Why do we rely on some upper class twits in Whitehall, deciding what’s going to happen to what’s left of the Clyde? Oh yeah, we’re proud Scot buts British.

  39. Simon Curran says:

    Previous post should read Mr McPhee, autocorrect is anything but.

  40. Jimbo says:

    I know it’s wrong. I know I shouldn’t, but I won’t be able to help it.

    I’m going to get a massive feeling of schadenfreude when next I meet a certain neighbour, a Labour voter and shipyard worker who campaigned hard to get his workmates to vote NO.

  41. Fireproofjim says:

    Muscleguy
    It is not so much the number of votes in the shipyards, but it is an iconic industry, promised a glowing future after a no vote.
    Failure to provide that future will show clearly how little Westminster can be trusted in the most obvious way.
    We can still build ships in Govan. It could be a diamond for the next inde project.

  42. yesindyref2 says:

    @George S Gordon “And Leasky send to be suggesting all the above is but a figment of Yesser imaginations

    Nope. Leasky knows exactly what’s going on. He made just one comment below the line, to confirm that this is a change from the previous BaE plans when someone questioned it.

  43. Iain More says:

    The Yoons scorched earth policy continues. But nae to worry the Brit Nat Yoon Press and Media will find a way to spin it as an SNP BAAHD SCOTS USELESS story.

  44. yesindyref2 says:

    OK so that’s the bad news, the chances are the rUK is going to start building perhaps even just buying warships overseas as well as the RFA vessels. But what would be the future for the Clyde with Independent Scotland? The good news?

    Simple I think, carry on building OPVs, either taking the BaE designs and extending them to have a heli hanger, and perhaps a bit more range (a la T31), or doing our own. Make a speciality of that and flog them around the EU and the rest of the EEA like there’s no tomorrow. Perhaps 2 or 3 different designs, maybe even a larger one with that Mk 41 VLS or EU/NORDEFCON equivalent.

  45. robertknight says:

    What’s that you say?

    Chickens?

    And they’re coming home?

    Home to roost?

    So soon?

    Bugger me!

    Who’d have thought it?

  46. dakk says:

    Excellent news.

    One less supposed subsidy for our myopic Uncle Jocks to try

    justify their betrayal of Scotland with.

    Next.

  47. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    We can only hope that Brewer gets Gary Smith into the BBC Scotland studio and get him to explain EXACTLY what the hell is going on.

    Gary Smith is the Ultra Unionist mouthpiece for the GMB Union in Scotland.

    He DETESTS the SNP and Scottish Independence.

    He is a total Scumbag.

    As you can tell, I don’t have a lot of time for Gary Smith. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

  48. Clootie says:

    …we all seen it coming except the loyal labour trade union leaders fooled by Westminster lies. They observed every step reduction in ship building, steel, mining etc etc decade after decade……but this time it would be different. This time they would keep their promises.

    I wonder when the scales will fall from their eyes?

    Is their party more important than their nation?

  49. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Now we here that Canada is building the fabrication sheds to build Frigates for anyone that wants one.

    Don’t be surprised if you here that Canada will build the Royal Navy Frigates.

    They flattened the old sheds in Scotstoun and now they are not building the new sheds. The workers are left with NOTHING to build ships in.

    It was a total con from the start.

    You were duped by the Yoons.

  50. Jimbo says:

    Clootie wrote:

    “I wonder when the scales will fall from their eyes?

    Is their party more important than their nation?

    I wonder, how many people will read that and say “YES” to themselves?

  51. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The BBC Scottish Six is also cancelled.

    I can’t remember if the Scottish Six was part of the VOW or not.

    There are that many VOWS being broken, I can’t remember which VOW was made when.

  52. Famous15 says:

    O/T The Spark website freely acknowledges it spreads fake news “for a laugh”

    But some clown here around 10.30 provides a link. BTW Alex Salmond has NO sense of smell ever since a teenage golfing accident. Damn I just made that up!

  53. pool9 says:

    Excellent reiteration of just one of the long list of things that can be shown to No’s in future. The long line of images showing the BT team being… conservative… with the truth is hard to argue with.

    They promise one thing and deliver the opposite, time after time. This time it was frigate building and jobs they promised, and have yet to deliver.

    And now I read about wind energy jobs being under threat. Might that have anything to do with the subsidies that got axed by Cameron &Co.? I noticed the BBC article said nothing about them.

    As for the 47% who think most promises have been kept – I agree with a poster above who suggested that this is what folk would say, even if they knew it wasn’y true, because they were not yet ready to admit how badly they were lied to.

    Keep chipping away at them with the truth – sooner or later the scales will fall from their eyes. Enough of them, anyway!

  54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Johnny @ 22:37,

    Yes, your explanation about that stat rings true.

    Another interesting result is the 28% of no-voters (as oppposed to “no”-voters) who believe no promises were fulfilled – the second-highest of the lot – and the massive 69% of them who believe little or no promises were fulfilled.

    No-voters are a very modest percentage in this poll (~6%, which is anomalously low given an actual turnout of ~85%) but if these people can be motivated out of self-defeatism, torpor or whatever else ailed them before – as both the Brexiteers and Trump succeeded in doing on their terms – then there is something to play for. Just half of this ~2/3rds of 6%, if repeated across the land, could take us from 48% up to the line.

    “Incremental gains” and all that…

  55. Norway haas (or had the last time I checked, they may have increased) 42 armed vessels in its waters – all built in Norwegian yards and they build the UK’s Antarctic vessels as well. Denmark has a substantial navy. ROI has a navy. Scotland is the only maritime nation in the world without a navy.

  56. pool9 says:

    Clootie – snap! (on the scales from eyes thing)

    I too wonder how some people can continue to believe in lies about ‘protecting Scotish industry’, when we now have generations of evidence showing promises made, and then industries betrayed.

  57. Let’s not get too carried away with this. We don’t need to shout, people can see and make judgements themselves.

    What happens if the UK suddenly turns round and announces the contracts are going ahead. We will have been suckered

  58. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dave, the Fridtjof Nansen-class frigates were built in Spain for Norway by Bazan. Don’t know about the rest.

  59. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    pool9 @ 23:47,

    I sometimes wonder whether there’s a modern equivalent of the McCrone Report, this one about Scotland’s vast potential for renewable energy (both in manufacturing and generating), and the current UKGov is not only keeping it under lock and key, classified “TOP SECRET”, but is actively downgrading support for renewables as a matter of policy, and encouraging the media to stay schtum about it, so as not to make the potential too obvious until the restless natives are well and truly back in their little box again.

    Or is that just the paranoia occasionally taking over…?

  60. osakisushi says:

    All in all, I feel better about IR2.

    First, tried to attend “the dugs” talk last night but it was standing room only. I was effectively legless.

    But the icing came when I discovered the ‘For Argyll White Settlers’ website has ceased updating.

    To paraphrase JK, our situation is of an (abused) spouse who threatens to leave. Then gets beaten up again for making the threat and I suspect some of Argyll’s white haired settlers who were not born in our country now realise this.

  61. heedtracker says:

    Scotland is the only maritime nation in the world without a navy.

    How bad can it get now, on the Clyde. Ref 2, vote NO UKOK like last time and save fcuk all?

    http://www.kvaerner.com/

  62. Liz says:

    What worries me is 21% of YES voters think all or most of the promises WERE kept! Have they just switched off??

  63. Dr Jim says:

    Kezia Dugdale says: Independence isn’t the answer to this problem, the answer is staying within Englands single market which is pooling our resources and keeping them so that when we’re a starving country the big England will share with us all the bounty they have saved up for us all and we’ll have jobs cleaning the ships that other countries make that’s the promise of our next Labour Prime Minister whoever that’ll be in 2035 and Scottish Labour will work to that end to keep our UK together

    Even if it’s only me left

    And Anas of course

  64. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz @ 00:18,

    Maybe people who “remembered” voting yes, but actually didn’t? (Voted “no” or didn’t vote. There seem to be a certain proportion of “lost” non-shows compared to the actual turnout, for example.)

    There will be quite a few “retro-yessers” after we win next time, I predict!

  65. Legerwood says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 12.00am

    Renewables being starved of investment – like this today for example:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39015004

    It was reported in the Herald on Saturday but not sure if it made it into the online edition and the BBC has it in the business section.

    The company has approached the Scottish and Westminster Governments about support for the industry but no one is too hopeful about the latter giving any help. It would be against their policy which is about starving renewables of government support.

  66. defo says:

    If you’re ever needing a wee confidence boost re. Indyref 2, then Q26 is that adrenalin.

    What does it tell us ?
    At very least, 1 in 11 of 2014 No’s seem guaranteed to be fully fledged nawbags, and on top of that nearly half seem to be window lickers, but surely not all of whom are terminal cases.

    The collision between self interest, and cold hard reality has yielded us a healthy looking cohort of softies. Not too far off HALF, and with one in three of those, we’re pushing at the proverbial open door.

    Feeling better already. 🙂

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 19 February, 2017 at 12:16 am:

    “Scotland is the only maritime nation in the world without a navy.”

    Eh! Since when did, “The British Royal Navy”, (sic), become the, “English”, Royal Navy, Heedtracker?

    Dontcha know that it’s, “Her Majesty’s Royal Navy”?
    Not only that but her consort is an old naval man? As was the future King apparent.

  68. Liz g says:

    Gerry Parker @ 10.39
    Great stuff well done with the signatures.
    There are some really great and enthusiastic people in your area is there no?

  69. Meg merrilees says:

    Stunning opinion piece from the NY Times on a link from Alyn Smith, plus two others.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/opinion/theresa-mays-empire-of-the-mind.html

    UK fishermen may not regain control of UK waters. One of the drafted provisions from MEPs is that in the exit agreement with Britain there will be “no increase to the UK’s share of fishing opportunities for jointly fished stocks [maintaining the existing quota distribution in UK and EU waters]”.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals

    Chatham House has produced a details analysis on Devolved External Affairs concluding that Brexit will result in “significant political and institutional implications.”

    http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/publications/research/2017-02-09-devolved-external-affairs-brexit-whitman-final.pdf

  70. Eddie Munster says:

    Interesting read, the Professor shows that not all Professors are mad, insular or asking people to lay down there lives, because there nationalism is the best kind of nationalism and not the stinky, dirty, smelly foreign kind.

    “Brexit is the result of an English delusion, a crisis of identity resulting from a failure to come to terms with the loss of empire and the end of its own exceptionalism, argues Cambridge University professor Nicholas Boyle”

    “There is a great lie peddled about the referendum: that it expressed the will of the British people. The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other.

    This was far more significant than any division between ‘metropolitan elites’ and ‘those left behind by globalisation’. Are there no elites in Edinburgh or Belfast? Is no one left behind in the Scottish or Irish hinterlands? Even if such a division is present across the UK, and indeed the whole of the Western world, and it plainly is, why only in England did it express itself as so powerful a revulsion from the EU?

    To explain the referendum result as a ‘howl of pain at austerity’ is a pious flight from reality. It is to ignore, to cover over again, the wound, festering below the threshold of public consciousness for two generations, which the referendum opened up to the air.

    Those who voted Leave in the referendum were not voting about globalisation or stagnating living standards or austerity and declining welfare payments, they were voting about the EU, and it is condescension to pretend otherwise. But they were not being asked by the Leave campaign to express a preference for a particular rationally argued and practically feasible economic and political alternative to membership of the EU – that is evident, for none was offered before the referendum and none has emerged since. They were being asked to express an emotion about membership, and the English, but not the Irish or Scots, felt so urgent a need to express it that they threw reason and practicality to the winds.”

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882

  71. Ed t head says:

    Its not just yes or no it’s a out look 1; will WM look after me or is it 2;we can make a great country. I am with 2 as its the best outlook I was born just south of the border but look to Scotland as my future as following WM will be a road to a far right future that is not for me. Or can I become a EU citizen in another country already looked to ere but no go so what ? Go and leave this Brexut hell , no hope, so I like were I am but the ukok are all around some will change but I meet a hard core, so is it better to argue or let them spout bul###it. I can only take so much, they take the high ground andveven with a proven figure can’t take the truth I hope article 50 causes a revolt but I. Don’t hold out much hope. As we don’t have enough MPs in WM. It’s a long turn fix so it’s Indy 2

  72. Dr Jim says:

    What seems very clear about all these polls is that many people don’t understand questions
    I reckon if you did a poll to ask whether people knew their own names many would get that wrong

    eg: If your vote were to be counted on the basis of a “didn’t vote” or “don’t know” answer would you be happy to have your vote counted as a Yes or No answer or be counted as a dead person

    I’d be interested in the results of that poll

  73. Macart says:

    ‘Really is depressing how many unionists simply don’t care about shipyard workers and their jobs. Political union at any price. #eatyourcereal’

    Its been said before, but always worth repeating. The Tories are detestable for what they are. Labour for what they are not.

    We trusted them and they deserted us when we needed them most. Even those Labour parliamentarians of the past I had a bit of respect for look pretty shabby and stained by the politics of that hoose on the Thames now.

    Labour in Scotland put in a shift to deliver that indy result. They pulled every string, mobilized every meeja outlet, every luvvie. They intimidated, undermined, smeared, dialogued and triangulated like demons. Simply awesome mobilization of political resources.

    All for party politics.

    So eager to ‘END’ the SNP as a political opponent and get shot of that whole lesser problem of independence. Jumping into bed with the Tories they could easily write out of the history books, what with the ‘Scottish’ meeja on speed dial and all. Ayup! That could easily be erased with enough time and coverage.

    The morons actually jumped at the chance to stab their own electorate in the back simply because they reckoned they could ‘do away’ with their biggest political opponent in Scotland. They reckoned that being the saviour of the union would boost their chances a bit the following year’s GE t’boot. They didn’t see the dagger in the Tory hand till it was far too late.

    They probably reckon they’ve been hard done by y’know? How could the fates be so cruel kinda thing?

    This is the REAL cost of Labour fronting Better Together. Near two and a half years and thousands of wage packets across every sector…LOST! Our representation daily humiliated in the media, actively sidelined in Westminster and the wider Scottish electorate’s voice utterly ignored by the UK government. Mainly because it’s a face and a voice that doesn’t suit. Our on loan sovereignty abused and the devo settlement (Sewell convention and all), proven worthless. Our membership status of the EU, our civil rights and our human rights under threat. Oh, and the small matter of Conservative Westminster government for the foreseeable future.

    Well done Labour. You had only one thing to do… etc.

  74. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    We trusted them and they deserted us when we needed them most.

    Again. Because that is exactly what they did to Scotland during the Thatcher era. Then too, Labour in Scotland put their damned Union before looking after Scotland’s interests.

    Some people seemed to have forgiven and forgot what Labour did then. It had a mandate to do whatever was necessary to protect Scotland. They failed miserably.

    It was no surprise to me they did it all over again in 2014.

  75. deewal says:

    When is The Nation of Scotland going to realise that The Fascist únelected bunch of thieves in Westminster have declared War on us and will go to any lengths to Occupy and “cleanse” us again ?

  76. Giving Goose says:

    Re Macart

    Regarding the comment about Labour not seeing the dagger in the Tory hand. I think that is incorrect.

    Labour knew the dagger was there because they were holding it.

    My point?

    Labour in Scotland is just a front for the Tories.

    Multi-party politics in Scotlamd should not be viewed through the lens of English party politics.

    There is no multi-party politics in Scotland in the sense of Labour/Tory/Libdem.

    The three English parties are genuinely a single entity in Scotland. One and the same. A big Tory/ Unionist party.

    The Labour bit knew exactly what it was doing.

    Now the ordinary door chapping activists probably thought/continues to think that they are representing a “Working people kinda movement thingy” or “Liberal progressive thingy” but the people at the top, Reid, Darling, Murphy, Wee Wullie Worthless of the Libdems etc, all know and cynically support the deceit and lies.

    The whole big con is only, and always has been, about the Union and f*** the electorates misplaced expectations.

    Forget False News…Scotland has False Politicians fronting False Parties trumpeting a False Agenda.

  77. woosie says:

    Shipbuilding scrapped. Fishing traded off. Mining closed. Steelworks sacrificed. Farming abandoned. HMRC moved to england. Job centres closed. Oil sector robbed and abandoned. They won’t stop until there is nothing Scotland has to offer.

    Surely this is another incentive for the people of Scotland to say “we want out!”

    Judging by the audience demographic on QT the other night, ( I just watched last night ) the tide is definitely turning.

  78. David Caledonia says:

    I remember the lies the no camp came out with in connection with the shipyards at the time of the scottish referendum, and i remember thinking all you people building warships and voting no to protect your own jobs will regret it
    But of course they believed the lies and promises, if any of those workers had just done one little bit of research, they would have discovered that countries like sweden are building lots of ships for lots of countries, and they are not restricted to hoping the mod will provide work for them, because due to the secrecy of that work they cannot take on any other work if there is no mod work to be had
    Now lets look at Fergusons on the lower clyde, they need more shiprights as they don’t have enough of then to fill the posts that need filled, they have taken on new apprentices, this is a yard that is not constrained to just building warships, this is a yard that can compete for any shipping order from anywhere in the world, the clyde could get back to where it was in the days of the great Jimmy Reid and before, but it will take a lot of investment to get there, that will not happen under westminster, you see scotland does not vote for them, so why should they do us any favours, you know the score, when your votes don’t count, neither do you when the money is being invested, they prefer to spend billions building a road system from London to Manchester, or spending billions tarting up westminster or renovating the royal palaces.
    Vote for scotland, if you don’t have the bottle to run your pwn lives, then move aside and leave it to those who do

  79. David Caledonia says:

    mmm

  80. Breeks says:

    This is the bitter end of betrayal, but it’s missing the bigger picture.

    Why is our ship building industry reduced to such an unhealthy dependence on chicken feed MOD orders? Across the North Sea, facing the same Far Eastern competition we do, we have Norwegians who didn’t piss their oil revenues up against the wall, but invested in their oil production and support vessels, and further diversified that ship building with fishing boats, ferrys and cruise liners. Their shipping industry is massive, robust, and a source of pride for the Norwegians just as Scottish shipbuilding was a source of pride for Scotland.

    That’s the big betrayal. For decades we have been ruled by a foreign government which only considers Scotland ripe for plunder. They have sucked our country dry and left the mere husk, yet they still want more and more from us.

    The only generosity Westminster shows Scotland is the limitless layer upon layer of disingenuous bullshit and propaganda they deluge us continually, all designed to cover over their theft and deliberate deprivations which they mask as some “greater good”.

    Westminster breaking a promise is barely news. Westminster has broken our country, and broken the spirit of every Unionist who won’t stand up for Scotland.

    Let us end this sham, and start to fix ourselves once we get rid of our super-parasite. Let us invest ourselves in our renewables industry the way the Norwegians invested themselves in their oil. Let us build production of clean energy and be the literal power house that keeps the lights on for our friends in Europe.

  81. Ken500 says:

    The Labour Party is finished. It is just destroying itself. Instead of being an opposition and being the Party of Remain. It just passes through every Tory policy. It had a chance to represent the majority that wanted to remain in the EU, in the rest of the UK.

    The Tory Brexit carry on is just unbelievable. How long it will carry in before they are voted out? They committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies to ruin the world economy. They are complete and utter fools.

    The Tories would rather spend £10Billion a year on quint Trident, than build ships to patrol the shores, ferries, oil supply boats, barges and liners. They are the only association in the world to have banned renewables and support nuclear. Toshiba has suffered £Billions of loses in the US on nuclear. Hinkley Point is just a disaster waiting to happen.

    Scottish Independence will revitalise the Scottish economy. Spending on what Scotland needs and not making loan repayments on debts not borrowed or spent in Scotland.

    Scotland raises the most (pro rata) £54Billion and end off the worse off paying £4Billion on others debt. The UK raises £515Billion in taxes. Take off £54Billion = £461. Divide by 11 = £42Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Million. Scotland has to pay £4Billion of debt repayments.
    Scotland is the only part of the UK that has to live within it’s means. Getting a so called Deficit from Westminster bad decisions.

    Theresa May campaign to stop the abuse of people. A complete joke. The Tories have sanction and starved the most vulnerable people. Especially women and children. In a sadistic campaign that defies logic. Cutting mobility allowance that cost more as people can’t work. The ‘bedroom tax’ costs more as people have to be rehoused. Cutting NHS funding, Killing the elderly off because of lack of social care in England. The elderly should consider that before they vote. The Tories are a disgrace.

    Westminster is a shambles. Full of white middle class wealthy males who do not care about anyone else but themselves and their associates. Milking the public purse for all it is worth. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All disasters waiting to happen, They will be redundant before they are finished and are a complete waste of public money. The Tories and their associates will be getting their cut. In fees, commission, consultancies and expenses.

    The illegal wars caused the migration into Europe. 2/3 of migrants in the UK go to London where there are jobs. London voted Remain. The UK has taken 10,000 refugees. Germany has 2 million and a better economy. Westminster is a corrupt establishment full of Unionist fools, who are ruining the world economy.

  82. Hamish100 says:

    What chance this story will be on the BBC ” National” News. Zilch.

    Now we hear there won’t be a Scottish Six can I suggest that the Holyrood Committee play the week news and ask Donalda McKinnon, Tony Hall – sorry Sir , to point out the news from Scotland or World news without a London perception.

    State broadcasters will not flinch in embarrassment.

  83. Sinky says:

    Someone should tell Sunday Times that Scotland’s GDP is more than twice that of Greece and that’s before the recent increase in oil prices

  84. Chick McGregor says:

    It is quite agonizing watching Norway’s progress.

    Not only are they planning to replace all fossil fuel road vehicles with EV’s by 2025 but they have even started electric ferries.

    Big 150 car jobs.

    They have charging stations and spare batteries at each end of the trip. ‘Re-fueling’ only takes 10 mins. Running costs are 30% less. Cleaner, faster, quieter, smoother, greener and more reliable than fossil fuel jobs.

    An indy Scotland could use our electricity surplus to do exactly the same.

    Excuse me while I bite my knuckle,… again. GNNnnach!

  85. DerekM says:

    haha spend a pound in spar and get a free sunday mail,the assistant was like shit cant even give these things away when i told him i am not interested in being lied to.

    He did not look happy having to register a sale and showed me the amount of copies he had already had to register as a sale but not taken,it was quite large and that is just from 7am lol

    On my exit he shouted indyref2 and gave me a big thumbs up 🙂

  86. North chiel says:

    Agree with Dave Mcewan Hill@ 1157pm .However, is this
    another ploy by Westminster to continue the uncertainty and to
    use these contracts ( again) during the Indyref2 campaign??

  87. Capella says:

    I didn’t think it was possible to loathe and despise these people any more than I already did. But I was wrong. Looking at those NO campaign leaflets, press releases and tweets fills me with rage at the self-serving lies and mendacity.

    We’ll be sure to help people remember.

  88. Ken500 says:

    Marr – total non self awareness.

    Russian plotted regime change in Montenego

    Assassination of North Korea.

    Westminster illegal invasions killing and maiming million of people in the Middles East for regime change and theft of resources. Not a mention.

  89. DerekM says:

    @ North chiel

    Yes that is exactly what they will do what they always do promise the earth and then fail to honour their promises.

    The SG should counter this by setting out a program for indy Scotland`s navy and merchant navy and when the yoons scream how are you going to pay for it they should reply by making England pay the correct amount for fuel and electricity they get from Scotland.

    Time they started playing the brit scum at their own game,if they want to threaten us we should threaten right back.

  90. Al Dossary says:

    Interesting about the unused RORO ramp in Dundee. Do the the MOD have a plan somewhere to use it to put down the modern day “Bonny Dundee” when it comes I wonder.

    Dundee was one of the original contenders for the centre of the offshore supply industry in the 1970’s. It lost out mainly due to its being perceived as a hotbed of trade union unrest (around the time of the Timex strikes).

    Strangely enough Blackpool got the nod for the Morecombe bay helicopter operations rather than Liverpool also.

    I look forward to the day we see regular ferries from the East coast to Scandinavia and mainland Europe again.

  91. Smallaxe says:

    DerekM:

    I tell them that if they put a free RAG on my receipt as a registered sale then I won’t buy my shopping.Try it, it works.
    🙂

    Peace Always

  92. Breeks says:

    Chick McGregor says:
    19 February, 2017 at 8:56 am
    ….It is quite agonizing watching Norway’s progress.

    Oh but Chick, it’s £10 a pint!!!

    It would make you weep how blind and short sighted some of our Unionists are.

  93. Glamaig says:

    it would be interesting to profile all the answers given by people who did not vote in 2014 and see if they are more typical of Yes voters or No voters.

    Although 85% is a massive turnout as votes go, it still leaves a staggering 600,000 people who did not vote in 2014, which is beyond my comprehension.

    Maybe in future polls ask why they didnt vote. I know 2 people who didnt vote in 2014 and they are the type who are ultra-cynical and hate politics, but I suspect its Westminster that has caused their cynicism, and if they can be persuaded to vote, they would be more likely to vote Yes.

    It would be interesting to see confirmation of that.

  94. gus1940 says:

    When is the YES side going to point out and use the illustration provided by the arrogant rejection of every single proposal from SNP MPs in both the latest Scotland Act legislation and the more recent Brexit debates as an example of how Scotland’s interests have been trampled on for the last 310 years by an overwhelming perpetual majority of English MPs acting always in the interests of England at the expense of Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

  95. Hamish100 says:

    Marr on Tv with Mandelson

    Only the lib dems are against brexit — says the man from the BBC

    Hope this biased reporting will be thrown in the face of the BBC this week

  96. DerekM says:

    @ smallaxe

    Thanks i will try that next time 😉

    Shocking that to boost sale figures the mail has to resort to this tactic,makes you wonder just how much they actually sell and how they can afford to do this in Scotland,must be getting a cash drop from someplace.

  97. gordoz says:

    ‘Really is depressing’ how some Scots workers let themselves be manipulated by Westminster and the Unions again and again.

    Will they never learn ? This is another way …

  98. woosie @ 7.51 am.

    Absolutely correct, and this “asset stripping” of Scotland will continue unabated, even after we gain our independence. They, the Westminster establishment, are determined to teach us a lesson we will never forget, merely for daring to consider that we could decide to run our own country.
    And yet, there are still people amongst us who believe that May and co, and their fellow travellers, will look after us, and replace all the E.U funding that will be lost, if we are forced out of Europe.
    Do these people never heed the lessons of history? For centuries all the British establishment do is take, take, take, and only when they have bled a country nearly dry do they leave, and it’s then left up to the downtrodden masses they have left behind to try to make something of what has been left of their country. It has happened many times, and Scotland will be no exception.
    The only difference is that on this occasion, and I sincerely hope that this situation continues, there has been virtually an absence of violence, which probably makes us unique in the history of a people trying to gain their independence from the British State.
    However, whether this present calm will be allowed to continue is not certain, because judging by the inflammatory rhetoric used during the E.U Referendum campaign, I fear for Indyref2, especially when Nicola announces the date on which it is to be held.
    As will be obvious, I don’t trust Westminster to any degree, and I believe they will use any means, fair or foul, to try to prevent us gaining our independence, and the tactics used will become more abhorrent, to like minded people at least, as the campaign progresses.

  99. HandandShrimp says:

    I am sure that I heard on the radio that the Hootsman is running with Scotland would be the worst economy in every known galaxy if there is a Yes vote as their main headline.

    Was an independence referendum called ande I missed it? or is this a particularly egregious case of Premature Project Fear #3?

  100. Ian Foulds says:

    Has anyone listed the promises in the Vow, the Smith Commission Recommendations and compared those with the powers granted?

    I believe this would be a useful billboard/propaganda tool for our nonYES countrymen/women during YES2

  101. jdman says:

    Tartan Tory @ 9.55
    You might also recall The late Tory MSP for Stonehaven (who’s name has eluded me) walking up from the Better Together stall, he appeared to be looking for Rev Stu, with his determined gait, I thought he was looking for a square go.

  102. Alba 46 says:

    O/T (slightly)

    Trump is a racist, a bully, a know all, arrogant, self serving egotistical arsehole. I agree with him on absolutely nothing except his attitude to the media. He has nailed that one perfectly.

    He bypasses the media by appearing at rallies and speaking directly to the people and putting out statements on twitter. The reaction of the media at his press conferences is gratifying to watch. They are incandescent with rage and are on the verge of exploding.

    All you hear from the media is the freedom of the press must not be curtailed as if Trump has to be answerable to them. He is answerable to the people not the biased media. The press in the US appears to be the same as the press in Scotland. They DEMAND the freedom to report/print what they see as their version of the truth without any semblance of truth or balance.

    The media is corrupt pure and simple. They need to be reigned in but that will not happen as long as they reflect the tune of the english government.

  103. Smallaxe says:

    Derek, it’s not just the “Mail” I’ve been offered the “Sun” also.
    They could offer me the Moon and the “STAR” if they like but I am on a “National” cause.

    Peace Always

  104. harry mcaye says:

    Sunday Herald running an article on online abuse from both sides heavily featuring Stu. Some very good points made, mentioning his article this week about death threats. However, they do dredge up his Hillsborough comments from 2012. Hmmm. Motive for that? Relevance?

    I couldn’t disagree more with Stuart on this, having been an avid follower of the families campaign over the years. I’ve thought, pretty much from the day after it happened, that those fans had a right to expect there to be ample room for them, regardless of how they behaved. I don’t think their behaviour was out of the ordinary in any case and certainly within the norms of crowd dynamics. They were eager to get in to see their team and if your getting swept along by a crowd it is damn near impossible not to push the person in front. Anyway, he’s entitled to his views and it’s a pity the SH saw fit to bring it up. Quite what it has to do with Scottish Independence I can’t fathom.

  105. Craig P says:

    In 1979 conservatives and labour promised Scotland would thrive if we rejected an assembly. Instead, everything got shut down.

    So in 2014 when better together promised that shipyards would thrive (Why just shipyards? There are hardly any jobs in them) I was pretty sure orders would be cancelled once we were safely over the other side of a No vote.

    Just can’t quite figure out why so few No voters could see that, didn’t they remember the 1980s?

  106. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Was an independence referendum called and I missed it? or is this a particularly egregious case of Premature Project Fear #3?”

    There’ll be a lot more of their premature ejaculations, HandandShrimp. It’s all they can manage now.

    Alba46: I agree Trump’s only good point is that he drives the MSM mad with his utter contempt for them. When the BBC hack smugly announced himself as “Jon Sopel, BBC: free, fair and impartial”, Trump looked sidelong at one of his aides and observed in his camp way, “There’s a beauty!”

    Ian Pannell got the same sideswipe at the previous one.

    Cue much frothing.

    They don’t like it up ’em, Captain Mainwaring.

  107. Orri says:

    The Scottish Six always held the risk of being a massive con job. At the moment we get BBC national news that seems to have gotten the idea that the NHS they cover is for England and Wales. I saw an item about differences between some along the that border so wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a precursor to them being merged. With an SS providing our news a cynical might say that they could downplay just how shite the NHS and other areas were in the rUK. If they covered it to all.

  108. Footsoldier says:

    Sunday Times has prominent article on front page something along the lines that independence would make us worse than Greece – here we go again again.Looks like the Yoon press have started campaigning already.

    I was actually going to buy the Sunday Times which I do from time to time but the headline persuaded me otherwise.

  109. Bob MACK says:

    Thus far our deficit has gone from £4 billion to £8 billion then to £12 billion then £14billion and now £19 billion.

    All in the last 10 years apparently. I think we need a new accountant.

  110. DerekM says:

    While i think the trumper is a big tool i find it hard to say that i agree with his stance on the MSM.

    However our motives are completely different,his motives are based on revenge for all the bad things they ever said about him,where is mine is to free my country from oppressive propaganda from the fake nation of Britain.

    And before any of you dimwit yoon trolls get your knickers in a twist Britain is an island always has been always will be.

  111. Footsoldier says:

    One of life’s coincidences. No sooner had I posted at 11.18 when the doorbell went, which turned out to be a Conservative canvasser, very pleasant he was.

    When I said I was for independence, he asked me if I was worried about Scotland’s deficit. I said I was and given it was created in the Union, time to get out.

    He simply did not have an answer to that and I was really surprised how quickly he gave up.

    We need to do far more of turning their questions and viewpoints back on themselves.

  112. HandandShrimp says:

    Footsoldier

    Oh it was the Times…thought they said the Scotsman on the radio. The Scotsman will recycle it next week 😉

  113. Marcia says:

    There MUST be a referendum on the way with all these scare stories appearing all of a sudden*. London must be worried.

    *if on Marr – then the Establishment are very worried.

  114. HandandShrimp says:

    Marcia

    Yes, in fact I think we are duty bound to hold one because all these people will be disappointed if we don’t 🙂

    Ruth, Rennie and Kezia’s almost daily demands that there shouldn’t be a referendum has almost guaranteed there will be one because they have kept it at the forefront of the political debate.

  115. bjsalba says:

    @Alba 46

    Fox News Supports Trump.

    And it is owned by?

  116. Thepnr says:

    @jdman

    The late MSP you mentioned re Wings weekend at Arbroath Seafest was Alex Johnstone.

    Brian Doonthetoon posted this picture of Tartan Tory’s car, did you spot the big stainless steel Wings emblem tied to the fence 🙂

    https://i.imgur.com/g6g7jtC.jpg

  117. Nana says:

    Sorry I’m late this morning

    Links

    https://thecommongreen.scot/2017/02/18/scotlands-new-deal/

    https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10350/report-forecasts-164m-boom-western-isles-lewis-wind-power-turbines-are-unleashed

    Leading EU experts advise that EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill does not disable Parliament’s ‘constitutional handbrake’ on Brexit
    https://www.bindmans.com/news/withdrawal-bill

    Historywoman’s comments caused a bit of a surge in new members
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/englishscotsforyes/

  118. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good Morning,

    Links for Sunday brunch.Kettle’s on.Thank you.

    Ps Next time you are late, Bring a note.
    🙂

    Peace Always

  119. Nana says:

    @Smallaxe

    Yes Sir, sorry Sir. It’s all these late nights listening to off topic music posts to blame! lol

  120. Smallaxe says:

    Nana:

    It wisnae me, a big boey dun it an’ran awa’

    Peace Always

  121. Jack Murphy says:

    Ghillie said at 10:32 pm yesterday:
    “How do Ruth and Kezia sleep at night?
    (upside down, hanging onto the rafters perhaps)

    Is Joanne Lamont happy with herself?…….”

    Here’s another ex-Leader of Labour in Scotland, Mr Jim Murphy who seems to be doing away fine with the Blairites.

    Short quote from Mr Murphy’s Wikipedia entry:
    “In November 2016 Murphy took up an employed position as an adviser to Tony Blair.” [!!!!!!]

  122. wull2 says:

    Its like the miners all over again. Split and Divide. Don’t let it happen to Scotland.

  123. Macart says:

    RE: The meeja, freedom of speech, fake truth… etc.

    They have absolutely no one, and I do mean no one, to blame but themselves.

    Their own corporate ego, their willingness to actively participate in politics to well beyond the point of journalistic ethics, has brought us the political system and the societal division we see today.

    They are fully paid up, or should that be bought off, willing participants of project UK on this side of the pond and their peers on the other side are just as responsible.

    They are neither believed or trusted as a body for a reason. Scratch that. For a veritable mountain of reasons. There are good journos out there. There are good commentators, budding writers and one or two publications. There are news outlets that actually make an effort to report, y’know, news.

    Not a single one of them is without their own bias or personal opinion.

    It’s always been about degrees of truth and fact. It’s been about who bends the facts, by how much and for what ends? If Leveson taught the public anything, it’s that the meeja were beyond compromised at every level. That they had no moral high ground and no monopoly on the facts, the truth or wisdom.

    They’ve lost public trust? No, they willingly abused it and threw it in the sewer.

    I’ll hear no wailing or gnashing of teeth from any mainstream journalist. They live in the world they created. Karma simply decided to repay their efforts accordingly.

  124. Capella says:

    @ Footsoldier – good point. With a deficit of £19 billion it’s high time we got out of the Union. I don’t think we can afford to stay any longer.

  125. caledonia says:

    what we need is a side by side photoshoot
    ie photo of shipyard promise with scrapping it by the side same with hrmc jobs
    out/in the eu lies
    peterhead power station yes then no and any other we can think of

  126. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Nicola will announce the date for IndyRef2 in March.

    The first steel for the new Frigates is to be cut in September.

    Will Micheal Fallon put ANOTHER delay on the Frigate order until after IndyRef2 saying “you will get the Frigate order if you vote NO”

    This will be a get-out for the UK Government because I have a feeling that they know already the Frigates are not going to be built on the Clyde.

  127. bjsalba says:

    @nana at 11:57

    Your link to the Guarian article:
    EU citizens living in the UK could face legal limbo after Brexit http://archive.is/DyhzV

    It isn’t just the Home Office that isn’t ready.

    I think you gave a link to this article already but it is pertinent here:

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/02/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-article-50-in-five-minutes

    Guardian seems a bit slow on the uptake, don’t you think?

  128. Famous15 says:

    Re the vile racial stereotype on the front page of the economist. Every time you see it on display ,in shops or libraries remember there is a bin nearby!

  129. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Whether you are in favour of the “Scottish Six” or not is besides the point.

    The real disgrace is, the decision of what news Scots want to watch and for how long is being taken by a foreign country (England).

    The BBC is actually coming up to Holyrood this week to tell us what we can and cannot watch.

    We are not worthy oh mighty ones.

    The only relief I have is knowing that I don’t pay for their London Establishment bias.

  130. Calum MacKay says:

    For too long the ship yards on the Clyde have been used as a political football by the red and blue tories.

    Starving development and orders until a general election is called and then all of a sudden new war ships are needed some time in the future.

    The cycle continues, yards down size or close and the tories little helpers – labour – trot out a malleable shop steward, etc.

    Makes you wonder how quickly these shop stewards forgotten Jimmy Reid – well the workers on the Clyde haven’t and neither have all working Scots.

    Do the malleable shop stewards and labour think the workers are stupid? If no, stop treating them as stupid and being seen to hold Scotland to hostage on the promises of tories.

    Has the Scottish referendum taught the Scottish labour party learned nothing about lying and mimicking the tories on the union, evidently so!

    Ship yard workers are not stupid, labour take note!

  131. “The future of Govan and Scotstoun is dependent on the awarding of the Type 26 frigates, which will be built between 2015 and 2021 and provide work for 1500 people.
    The ships will replace the Royal Navy’s existing Type 23 frigates.
    Mr Davidson said the referendum was a factor in the decision on where to place the contract and pointed out the UK Government had stated it does not build warships in other territories.

    He said: “There should be no unnecessary delays in awarding the contract. The MoD does not need to wait for the referendum to issue contract.
    “It could place the order with the provision that if Scotland separates it would revert back to the MoD where to place it. There would be a break clause in it.
    “Then the SNP needs to be clear about what it would do if the order is taken back.” ”
    This was Davidson (or has he changed his name to Harrison too, out of shame for his treachery)November 2013.
    I still look to the bottom of our street in anticipation of him charging my abode, bayonet in hand.
    WE kicked all but 3 of them out at the ’15 UK GE yet still their rotten corpses give off a hellish putrid stench.
    To our Dead Tree Scrolls and English broadcasters feeling the financial pinch , I offer this ‘efficiency and savings’ advice. Sack the hacks and presenters. Issue a single paged broadsheet every day with a banner headline:-
    “Scotland, you are still shite.”, or a screensaver instead of Misreporting Scotland of the Barren Barren Banks of the Clyde from Clydebank to Dumbarton, 2017.
    I suspect that No voters claimed to have supported Yes in your poll, Stu; hence the apparent anomalies.
    They lie by force of habit, as you know.
    Red Lead runs through my veins: I am a product of the Clyde.
    Self determination is only a matter of time now.

  132. Smallaxe says:

    “A man willing to work, and unable to find work, is perhaps the saddest sight that fortune’s inequality exhibits under this sun.”

    Thomas Carlyle

    Peace Always

  133. HandandShrimp says:

    On the Scottish Six it looks like the Branch Office will be told to shut up…it will undoubtedly come with yet more cuts to the BBC Scotland newsroom for fear that they may go native when Idyref2 kicks off.

  134. heedtracker says:

    Scottish Six was just another hoax. There’s two houses of power in Scotland, Holyrood and Pacific Quay. One tells us the other, is a load of shite.

    UK Defence Journal ?@UKDefJournal 12m12 minutes ago

    UK Defence Journal Retweeted Wings Over Scotland
    The honour of being called “fake news” by ‘Wings over Scotland’ is truly overwhelming.UK Defence Journal added,

    Wings Over Scotland @WingsScotland
    @UKDefJournal Yeah, and they’re going to build them in a new £200m frigate factory. You’re fake news, buddy.

  135. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Calum MacKay 12.59pm

    Micheal Fallon will blame the SNP and IndyRef2 for the next delay on the Frigate order.

    The GMB Union are as much to blame as the Tories regarding the decline of the Clyde. The GMB Union are Ultra Yoons based in England led by Gary Smith in Scotland.

    Gary Smith is a hater of all things Scottish. Infact he has been known to favour abolishing the word Scottish, to be replaced with the word British.

    Rule Britannia

  136. Alison Lindsay says:

    We need shipping for our many islands and coastal regions. We do not need to build monstrous killing machines for the sea. An independent Scotland with our long historic expertise in ship building can produce transport shipping, fishing boats, pleasure boat, emergency life boats and Scottish Navy patrol ships for defense only.Ship building on the Clyde for all of our own needs is viable. With our ragged coastline, huge fishing areas, many islands and strategic North Atlantic position this is a must. Ignore Westminster propaganda and their influence on BBC/media brainwashing. Think independence for ourselves.

  137. heedtracker says:

    So you see, for sure Vote NO for Type 26 Clyde built frigate factory 18 Sept 2014 was a hoax but look, trust us once again and we will give you,

    UK Defence Journal ?@UKDefJournal 22m22 minutes ago
    More
    UK Defence Journal Retweeted Wings Over Scotland
    The Clyde will still build 5 Offshore Patrol Vessels 8 Type 26 Frigates and 5 Type 31 Frigates, this has not changed despite sensationalism.

    And if you do vote YES ref 2, you’ll lose this not sensational UKOK promise too.

  138. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Gary Smith, leader of the GMB Union in Scotland is also one of BBC Scotland’s “useful idiots”.

    They wheel him out whenever they want a really bad “SNP Bad” headline story.

    He is also partial to a bit of Project Fear spreading.

    He is not a nice guy.

  139. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Something a bit cheerier:

    “Second Scottish referendum ‘weeks away’ from being called”

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/second-scottish-referendum-weeks-away-from-being-called-777845.html

  140. heedtracker says:

    Its all FM Sturgeon’s fault really, according to these twerps,

    “First Minister of Scotland challenged over shipbuilding claims”

    http://archive.is/mFQ5W

    Lie your arses off, blame the recipient. How nice.

  141. Valerie says:

    Nana at 12.04

    Everyone should be reading that piece by Rawnsley in the Guardian. Several Tories now briefing they fear blood on the streets, mainly down to the impending economic situation.

    We really are just in the limbering up phase of what’s to come. We are in the early days of a complete breakdown, the only argument will be degree.

    Whether Tories are being honest about what’s to come, OR they are like the Redwoods, who would relish troops on the street, doesn’t matter anymore, because it’s coming. They are ready for it, they are planning right now.

    There are now a fair few, very sane, rational people, scanning the economic situation, and see a meltdown, like we have never seen.

    Getting out is literally about our survival. I do not want to contemplate how we will be treated if we lose again.

    This is the shock doctrine, and the signs are all there.

  142. galamcennalath says:

    BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Nicola will announce the date for IndyRef2 in March.

    She can’t do it until after Article 50, because without that ther is no Brexit, it’s just Tory wishful thinking up until that document is handed to the EU.

    Will A50 be after the SNP conference? Possibly. Is that intentional? Or, do the Tories genuinely not care about events in Scotland?

    Well, they do. But Brexit is a bigger fish for them IMO.

  143. Hamish100 says:

    A view from England ukdefence
    “Tim February 17, 2017 at 23:10
    Yes and yes. Although you’ve just spelled out why our English polititions are lunatics for letting Scotland walk all over us. We should cancel the T26 and move our subs to Barrow and Devonport.”

    No doubt a view the scotch Tories and scotch labour and GMB Union agree with.

  144. clipper says:

    Sorry o/t but just posted this on previous thread including quote from Ealasaid not because I’m a great comment writer but because the last thread’s running out of steam and I’ve attempted to answer a question many ask about how to spread the word effectively.

    “But there a lot of Scots that are not that interested in politics and are not yet fully aware of what is going on. However prices are now going up and things are starting to change. They will be starting to look for their usual summer holiday and notice the pound dropping and maybe more requirements than in previous years. As more things impinge on them maybe then they will pay attention. After all IndyRef2 has not been called yet and Auntie Beeb says everything is OK!”

    They’ll be told that it’s the SNP’s fault and they’ll believe it, or at least many of them will.

    There seems to be a bit of an uptick in commentators from abroad talking up Scots indy. To them looking at it from outside Independence is a no-brainer. However these people are outsiders with no real understanding or appreciation of the depth and extent of anti-independence propaganda which blankets the country, nor do they have any real understanding of the depth and extent of wilful ignorance that exists throughout the Scottish electorate as a whole.

    Seems that many here think that when the negative effects of brexit start to become real that’ll somehow swing the polls (if you believe the polls that is) but don’t be too sure. All sorts of things have happened recently which the msm can’t hide entirely and which would make it crystal clear to all but actual morons that Scotland should leave the uk, yet nothing happens. (Again, if you believe the polls.)

    I’ve no doubt that there are Scots born Scots living here now who if there was a military occupation of Scotland by the uk gov would be thinking well they haven’t kicked MY door in yet so it must be ok, it’s all the SNP’s fault and it’s better than that big scary Independence thing anyway.

    It’s quite possible that no actual EVENT will bring about the sea change in opinion that’s required to gain another 5-10% of the vote. What’s required now – right now – is to keep up the momentum started by inform Scotland with the bbc misreporting campaign. Now that that campaign’s over I get the impression that it’s now been decided to put the feet up for a while, which is precisely the wrong thing to do just now. We need more crowdfunds for billboard, advan and organised leafleting campaigns being conducted up and down the country, with the content of the ads and leaflets being created by people who not only fully understand the facts supporting the case for Independence but who also have experience in the fields of marketing, pr and social psychology. Or alternatively at least in some instances simple but highly emotive quotes from prominent unionists could be emblazoned all over the place, for example the recent Julia Hartley-Brewer tweet.

    You often see on here people anguishing about how to reach into the broader low information soft no demographic, well ffs it’s not rocket science and it’s not impossible, just stop talking about it and actually start using the available methods as related above and just do it!

  145. Meg merrilees says:

    I don’t believe a word the M.O.D. say to us now – they have no plans to build ships here and it is criminal to string people along so ruthlessly.

    Posted these links in the wee sma hours – from Alyn Smith e-mail newsletter:

    UK fishermen may not regain control of UK waters. One of the drafted provisions from MEPs is that in the exit agreement with Britain there will be “no increase to the UK’s share of fishing opportunities for jointly fished stocks [maintaining the existing quota distribution in UK and EU waters]”.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/uk-fishermen-may-not-win-waters-back-after-brexit-eu-memo-reveals

    Chatham House has produced a details analysis on Devolved External Affairs concluding that Brexit will result in “significant political and institutional implications.”

    http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/publications/research/2017-02-09-devolved-external-affairs-brexit-whitman-final.pdf

    Also, can anyone archive the article in the herald scotland today re
    Outrage as top Theresa May aide claims ‘threats of violence’ a feature of Scottish politics

    Fake news- or is this a strategy the Conservatives have adopted – spread false rumour of violence up here and then bring in trouble makers?

    Hmm – I smell a smell!

  146. One_Scot says:

    I have been of the opinion now for some time that if Scotland does return a ‘No’ vote in IndyRef2, then it will have been as a result of a ‘Dark Forces’ influence.

    I honestly believe Scotland would vote ‘Yes’ given a fair platform and a fair election.

  147. Croompenstein says:

    @heed

    “First Minister of Scotland challenged over shipbuilding claims”

    BTL is pure class heed, would you like fries with that…

    Quite honestly, As there is only a 50% support for being ‘British’ in Scotland we should move the shipbuilding to England, Wales and N.Ireland where its appreciated. If the SNP want to take Scotland into the abyss then the real Brits can reap the benefits. The 50% of Scotts with a chip on their shoulder can fly their flag while working in McDonalds.

  148. Dr Jim says:

    The Internet of Dr Moreau:

    Brought to you by the makers of The BBC The Daily Mail The Express The Economist and Scotlands very own Daily Record with special mentions to every other media outlet as well

    Starring Nutters from all over, Katy Hopkins “shines” in this guttershite of a story Piers Morgan “Bewilders” JK Rowling Queen of Tweets “Slavers” endlessly in this moronic tale of the weirdest island in the Atlantic

    Produced and directed by The Tories
    Cinematography by the BBC and special effects by Look Zoomervison Studios
    Dialogue by Ruth Harrison?

    This Story will be brought to an Internet near you soon with previews by the BBC 24 hours a day without let up until they break you

    Will Scotland survive the onslaught?….. You decide!

    Are you afraid yet?

  149. One_Scot says:

    What I would like to know the answer to is, how many times can the unionists lie to Scotland and for Scotland to keep believing it before we realise they will never stop lying to us?

  150. starlaw says:

    800 Armoured cars being made for the UK in Germany and Spain. a factory in Wales will assemble 250 of these. What possible use could the Army have for all these. Is Westminster planning a war?

  151. Footsoldier says:

    BBC Scotland Politics website showing it cost Scottish Government (SG) £136,000 to challenge Article 50 at the Supreme Court.

    No mention at all by the BBC that the UK government refuses to say what the cost of their challenge was.

    As far as I can see (pun intended)only the SG is being transparent.

  152. Nana says:

    bjsalba 12.46 Thanks for posting the politics link, I read so many articles I sometimes forget what I already posted. It’s good to re post relevant articles for new readers.

    @Valerie
    I was chatting to someone on Friday about brexit & what might happen once people realise to what extent Westminster and the media have deceived hem. I read an article recently where mps had stated they feared voting against brexit would cause hell on the streets. Should they be more worried about voting for brexit.

    We had better get out and quick.

  153. Proud Cybernat says:

    The Union Nailed…

    http://imgur.com/a/wmIHf

  154. Robert Graham says:

    We could cover your screen with a list of every weasel promise made , and still some people who voted “NO” would do exactly the same again vote “NO” , exactly how bad does it have to get ? , how many more times will they accept being slapped in the kisser , Well they might accept it but a whole lot of folk are are f/n tired of the Lies , the Deceit , The petty carping of every single thing that is done to help people here weather the Tory onslaught on public services and indeed industry here , I have lost count of how many friends children have had to leave our country and travel all over Europe for a decent job , and these people accept this as normal , Aye f/kn right there is another way and these arseholes know it but cant bring themselves to accept it .
    End of rant .

  155. CameronB Brodie says:

    President Trump’s attack* on the media has also encouraged folk to take their eyes of Trump’s intentions re. human rights, the environment and public welfare. One doesn’t get where Trump is by being thick. Psychotic, perhaps.

    *or more correctly his ‘Alt-Right’ handlers.

  156. Proud Cybernat says:

    Incase you missed it…

    http://imgur.com/QkDyFDg

  157. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, I missed mentioning the link between Trump’s backers and the Brexit buccaneers.

  158. heedtracker says:

    Usual nothing Scots in Graun or Observer but JC gets it. What every you say about England’s prog/libs, they are all over the shop. Graun will no doubt be destroying Scottish democracy once again soon enough vote NO camping but poor old JC,

    http://archive.is/3lkBe

    Jeremy Corbyn Opinion
    I was wrong to defend Jeremy Corbyn. He has betrayed us over Brexit
    Ed Vulliamy

    It really is all JC’s fault, a north London Labour backbench nonentity for 30+ years. England what have you done?

  159. Thepnr says:

    My grandfather was a crane driver in the yards, mu old man was a welder in Fergusons on the Clyde. I served my time as a Shipwright in the Caledon in Dundee.

    I know very well what shipbuilding meant to Scotland in the past.

    Closing the shipyards was a purely political decision taken by Thatcher and her Tory bastard cabinet. It had little to do with economics and everything to do with destroying Trade Union power in the UK.

    She was a psychopath hell bent on imposing her will on the British people. She succeeded much to the detriment of Scottish industry when coal mines closed and Steel works like Ravenscraig were demolished all for Tory ideology putting tens of thousands out of work.

    That fucker Thatcher took the Great out of Great Britain.

    Well it’s been mentioned a few times, but now the chicken is coming home to roost. We on Wings are just that bit ahead of the game and I’m sure more will be following soon to get us out of this hell hole.

    When Scotland leaves the UK Thatcher will have completed her destruction of the UK and especially England who will feel the pain the most. She believed in the “invisible” earnings like banking and insurance and despised the “workers” especially after the three day week when the miners went on strike. Well you can’t eat something that’s invisible.

    The destruction of the UK economy and the massive debt began with the destruction of industry. The UK only had an empire BECAUSE OF the industrial revolution. We made everything and shipped it all over the world. Yet we gave it all up for Thatcher’s ideology.

    Madness and today’s Tories continue with that madness by taking us out of the EU and probably decimating the only thing they have left, banking. To tackle the massive debt they slash benefits to the disabled and the poorest, or even pay them nothing at all through so called sanctions.

    These people are monsters without an ounce of humanity, empathy or feelings.

    Pure stark raving mad fucking bonkers. Get out of it Scotland.

  160. Robert Graham says:

    Another one to add to the ever growing pile of promises broken .
    HMRC , i pass the Tax office in Cumbernauld most mornings , and remember all the Photo opportunities that the Naw brigade were constantly presenting as fact ” Vote YES and this office closes “.
    Then i see another redundancy for a poor soul in the Car Park whos job is chasing the Tax Office Employees who have no other option than to try and park there in order to get to work , thats one or more redundancies , by the time you add lost trade in the town centre , this one act has a wide ranging effect , add this closure to the many more and we are seeing a crude punishment of all people here not just the ones who voted with their brain and voted YES” but the ones who fell for the lies , now they should be really f/kn pissed , will they or have they who knows , who knows .

  161. Dorothy Devine says:

    Won’t an independent Scotland need a few frigates ? Could we just build some anyway?

  162. Juan P says:

    Probably an unpopular opinion to voice but the whole shipyard industry debate seems to be completely blown out of all proportion relative to the numbers actually employed and its significance to the wider Scottish economy.

    I can’t help thinking it was only given prominence during indyref because the industry symbolises, for unionists particularly, a time when Britania ruled the waves.

    I wonder if we pander to the unionist imperial mindset by expending so much time and energy arguing over this industry to the detriment of other more traditional and important ones for Scotland such as fishing.

  163. Fred says:

    It wouldn’t be the first time warship orders were diverted from the Clyde to the South coast for political reasons, it happened before when Tory seats were at risk there & there were none on Clydeside to worry about. In that case the English yards made such an arse of the work that the contract was re-awarded to the Glasgow shipyards, where it should have gone in the first place!

  164. Al Dossary says:

    @Juan P.

    You are probably right at the symbolism theory. Once upon a time Scotland had some 13 or more yards in the Upper Clyde section of the water (between the Broomielaw and Clydebank). Information I recall well from my Ravenscraig days – we had an old OS map of Glasgow).

    And that was only the Upper Clyde – Never mind Leith, Dundee, Greenock, Gourock, Troon or Aberdeen !

    These yards provided something that was in high demand in the 1970’s – a steady stream of skilled workers already trained in the dark arts of welding, pipe fitting, electrics and instrumentation. To build the new oil rigs and refineries and power stations that were required. As did all the other heavy industries that went to the wall.

    The death of these industries was already well advanced by the time Thatcher took office, but as one by one the commercial shipbuilders turned to oil rig construction, and the ship contracts went elsewhere. All except Yarrow’s, which continued limping along with the scraps thrown to it by Westminster.

    The coup de grace of betrayal however has to be Harland & Wolff in Belfast. As a method of keeping the Billy Boys semi-happy, Harlands pretty much always had something or other in the yard. Right up until the Good Friday agreement that was. Once that was signed off Harlands went the same way as the other yards. Mothballed and put out to grass. Now it gets the scraps for refit etc that Fred olden the owner throws to it.

  165. heedtracker says:

    It was Major’s crew of toryboys that delivered the killing blows of Scottish heavy industry. We were dry docked in the Scott Lithgow yard 1995. Lovely Clyde summer too, but no idea what was really going on. All summer we watched German HGV’s cart away huge machine tools, hundreds of them, BBC Scotland gimps announced the triumph of the giant H beam crane get demolished, yay for proud Scot buts everywhere.

    Port Glasgow full of all the socio economic horrors of yoon reign. Police divers searched under our rig for a murdered drug dealer, same BBC Scotland gimps breathlessly informed us. Never found the monster, but they did find his hands on the moor land behind Port Glasgow, he was 19. Old guys in the “murder bar” they called it, told us how the Greenock road would be blocked every Friday evening with the thousands of workers queuing for the pay at the pay office. That Scotlithgow yard built some of the worlds biggest most famous ships, now its filled in, for a housing estate and a tesco 24.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/rcahms/16802777391

    https://twitter.com/AlexSalmond/status/833335128650813440/photo/1?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=AlexSalmond&utm_content=833335128650813440

  166. bjsalba says:

    @clipper at 1:45pm

    Entirely agree about the Billboards and leaflets.

  167. HandandShrimp says:

    Juan

    I suppose the reason ship building still resonates is because it was such an iconic Scottish industry but yes, it is a shadow of its former self. Once upon a time 70,000 were employed in the yards now it is barely a couple of thousand. However, to see it go would be the end of something we were very good at. “Clyde built” was once a way of saying quality.

  168. Nana says:

    O/T

    Some comments from folk who have gone from No to Yes

    https://www.autonomyscotland.org/scottish-independence-from-no-to-yes/

  169. heedtracker says:

    Its odd what you remember though, of that Scott Lithgow yard. Coming up the Clyde on a big jack up was pretty spectacular but going under the Erskine Bridge, you wondered why its so high? to let the giant Clyde ships through, like the Queen Mary out of Clyde bank. They were planning for a future that never happened.

  170. Tackety Beets says:

    New Ref or Indyref 2 ?

    I fear a much “less friendly” Yoo K MSM coming down the track , & it may not be too pretty.

    Like other here, I have a couple o Yoons on my FB and the total crap they are already spoutin ….. really not pleasant.
    On a rare occasion I post a “correction” with a link to some “Fact” , i do this in the slim hope there may be some reasoned folk there too , mmmm

    One area I feel needs nailing SOON by SNP or YES is this trade with rUK etc

    The thing is that as we are right now 90% of goods are imported into UK via an English Port or airport ( East Midlands is where a lot of commercial parcels go via) , said Co. has usually an English office/admin who acts as the Distributor /wholesaler for All the UK
    Next time you are in a supermarket or shopping centre take a wee look around , almost everything you see arrived in these stores there via Engerland.

    Look round your house…….nearly all via Engerland.

    I have posted before about many Global Co. now operate an EU warehousing to distribute into ALL EU countries ( Goods to Scotland will still be imported by UPS etc via Engerland)

    We need to make it clear if these Yoon bats want to spout trade “exports” from Scotland to rUK etc being 4 times as much as EU. Engerland in particular have the most to loose if they wish to put as much a feather in the way of any trade on our borders.

    IF iScotland remains in EU(in whatever form) we can easily source everything via the said Co. in Holland or Belgium ( they have the same goods already there! ) but this may require a few changes to our ports… Rosyth etc , a few new Scottish jobs . If i was not so cynical there are a “F***ing ” load of new jobs to be generated.

    Its very simple we can by pass all that additional Admin, goods may be slightly cheaper & create jobs …..loadsa joabs !

    Can Anyone be bothered doing a list of stuff we really need to get from Engerland ?

    Here it is ;

    ……………………..

    ……………………..

    UJ flags for the yoons ………over & out !

  171. Robert Graham says:

    Can i suggest a little entertainment on a dull Sunday afternoon search out the Donalds man Sebastian Gorka and his encounters with our very own BBC , this guy is total theater and his defence of the Donald is classic Goebbels Propaganda at work , I have never seen so many BBC presenters Brillo nut Neil included having their Arses slapped in such a manner , he totally wipes the floor with them , i can’t provide links but he can be found either on u/tube or even the BBC I player , have fun it will i hope be worth the effort .

  172. Nana says:

    The aim of the informScotland billboards was to point people towards the website where there is a huge amount of information for the uninformed.

    I don’t know what is planned for later but I do know it costs a lot for just 1 board. More funds will need to be raised for specific advertisements. Cadogan is unavailable right now due to elections. I believe Simon is running things and I’m still gathering information for the site.

  173. Hamish100 says:

    I see the guy Torrance is trolling for info with a Scott Arthur of Herriot watt – labour activist. Arthur’s claim to fame is to complain about the forth road bridge. Pity labour didn’t spend money over the past 50 years on the bridge or forced the morning noes to be diverted to the trams.
    http://labourhame.com/author/scott-arthur/

  174. ScottishPsyche says:

    After the demonstration of lie after lie in the past two years the difference now is that claims can be simultaneously compared to those of ongoing Brexit.

    Project fear? Let the Brexiteers try to defend it when they dismissed scaremongering to win their referendum.

    Can’t survive on our own, England won’t trade with us? Remember the EU needs jam and who would the Germans sell their cars to?Every argument they use can be used against them and we should.

    As Brexit had changed everything, the notion that GERS is accurate when the UK government cannot even say how much they spent on a court case is laughable.

    We need to confound and challenge their lies and claims at every turn starting with this deficit nonsense as it is what they have built their case on.

    There is also the defensive screeching that no one wants another referendum – well we do and that is to our advantage. We have a good case now and they do not. They are defending the indefensible.

    Finally it is nice that celebs and experts seem to be changing their minds but it is heartening to see that most people on the Yes side are not star struck the way the BT people were. There should be a healthy distance from celebrity.It is good that folks change their minds but they are what they are – just people like us.

  175. HandandShrimp says:

    One certainly senses that there is a considerable shift in the Unionist language and intensity of campaigning. From confident predictions that Nicola was bluffing we now see full blown anti-independence bluster and scrabbling…and there hasn’t been a date set yet.

    The notion that Torrance would cite a serious and serial Labour activist such a Dr Von Scott as a figure of authority on SNPbaaaad is funny though.

  176. Graeme McCormick says:

    No surprises about BAE Systems. The MOD have been encouraging possible competitors to create joint venture company to bid against BAE for the frigates.

    The MOD has gone direct to some sub contractors but not to BAE.

    This information was available two years ago but didn’t hit the headlines.

    Why is this not being exposed?

    Some parliamentarians seem to depend on Establishment journalists for their information.

    Meantime Norway is commissioning four new submarines from Germany.

  177. tamson says:

    There will be some encouraged by the imbalance of this. As Stu notes, 44% of No voters think most or all of the BT pledges were broken, whilst only 21% of Yes voters think most or all have been kept.

    However, you have to remember there is a sizeable chunk of – mainly poorer, elderly – voters who are convinced of their own impotennce. “They wouldnae let Scotland go”, “they’ll no let Scotland go until they’ve bled us dry”, and so on. Many of those will be within that 44%, and will feel themselves doomed tovote No again.

    How to deal with that mindset, I don’t know. If they can be encouraged to raise their heads, a Yes majority is in the bag.

  178. Joemcg says:

    Tackety-as The Pnr said quite a while back this 4X claim is basically the Rotterdam effect being used by the yoons to inflate the figures. This should be nailed pronto.

  179. Tinto Chiel says:

    “I’ll hear no wailing or gnashing of teeth from any mainstream journalist. They live in the world they created. Karma simply decided to repay their efforts accordingly.”

    Agree completely, Macart.

    Robert Graham @4.09: exactly. Seb Gorka may be the Spawn of Beelzebub/Darth Vader’s PR but he completely whacked the BBC’s finest twisters out the park. Evan Davis started spluttering and fiddling with his notes and hadn’t clue how to handle him.

    BBC types are not terribly good when the shoe’s on the other foot and the interviewee takes none of their snash.

    A lesson for us all there, I think, when the shit storm heading our way for Indyref2 finally arrives.

  180. wull2 says:

    The problem is “what we were promised only a couple of years ago” and only a few people have forgotten in a two years.

  181. mike cassidy says:

    Tackety Beets 4.02

    There is a simple reply to the question of how much trade Scotland does with rUK.

    Ask them how much trade rUK does with Scotland.

    And if you want to throw them a curveball –

    just point out almost 70% of England’s daily electricity needs are supplied by Scotland.

    Enjoy!

  182. Smallaxe says:

    Robert Graham:

    Peace Always, I don’t know where the ? came from in my previous post to you. Apologies my friend

  183. FairFerfochen says:

    Good crowd for the Yes Bikers rally in Ellon today

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5CXd6fWIAEwJ94.jpg:small

    Alex Salmond has a speech on The National facebook page, sotty the url is too long to post and the movie embeds and wont play as an archive.is

    Saw a wings flag 😀

  184. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ScottishPsyche @ 16:35:

    We need to confound and challenge their lies and claims at every turn starting with this deficit nonsense as it is what they have built their case on.

    Indeed we do. That and the “blood & soil” thing seem to be about all they have left that isn’t totally shredded and threadbare. (Which is not saying much.)

    For the former, Footsoldier @ 11:32 got the essence of the counter to that:

    When I said I was for independence, he [Tory canvasser] asked me if I was worried about Scotland’s deficit. I said I was and given it was created in the Union, time to get out.

    I would even amend that slightly to “by the Union” or even “by Union mismanagement”, but (s)he got it right. Forget arguing about GERS numbers, it only amplifies the uncertainty and helps the unionists. Turn the argument round on them and the numbers don’t matter.

    As for the “relatives will become foreigners” tack, I can’t believe how Labour in particular could descend to that kind of thing. Their anthem is called “The Internationale” yet their notion of solidarity apparently travels no further than Dover! And would somehow magically sever at Gretna? Maybe one antidote to that would be to make a video featuring people from overseas who are relatives of Scots, saying “we aren’t loved less because we’ve never been Scottish nationals”.

    Speaking of videos, the “Journey to Yes” ones are, in my opinion, one of the most effective means yet devised of converting the “soft-no’s”. These are neither “project fear” nor “kumbaya with indy”, they are transparently not the fake products of focus group sessions (like the now-notorious “cereal woman”), but the real personal views of real people. The current three are steadily picking up views, and have the potential to go viral among people willing to re-think. Hopefully there will be many more of these to come!

    The mere prospect of Brexit has already detached many former “no” voters and the invocation of Art.50 will detach many more. We need to exploit the issue of retaining full EU membership relentlessly from now on. It can out-bid the shabby UK “counter-offer” in so many ways.

    While not neglecting efforts to bring back on board as many evident isolationists as possible, on the grounds that nothing has changed since 2014 except to get worse. After the indyref experience, why would they believe any UK false promises now? Learn the post-indy lesson: if they mistakenly swap sides and let this arrogant and uncaring decaying UK get back in charge, they will be ignored, trampled upon and exploited even more than ever.

  185. mike cassidy says:

    The Gorka/Davis interview

    pot kettle black and all that

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFK3tbkNX-A

  186. davidb says:

    On ships.

    The yards are owned by BAE – a UK multinational. They make their crust selling weapons all over the world. Are they in on this plan to punish Scotland ( which will be buying its own armaments when it is independent) ?

    If the yards are closed before independence, the options for an SNP Glasgow council, and SNP government are to firstly deny any planning consent to redevelop the sites. Once independent there is the option of compulsory purchase.

    If we have a skilled workforce then is it beyond fantasy to imagine some of them being able to operate a ship building facility which is Scottish owned? Indeed is it not the case that the original yards were all private enterprises, many of them established by Scots who knew how to build ships? Perhaps it is a serious problem for a shipyard to essentially have one hostile customer anyway. Dependency is being, to paraphrase tRuthless, weaponised.

    All that we need is imagination. It is precisely because of UK economic mismanagement that it is in our interest to be independent. It is in our long term interest to see our economy develop. It is in our interest to have Scots control our economy and our future. Perhaps the UK MOD is the last customer we really need.

  187. Valerie says:

    Barrier now outlining his process. No talks on trade deals until the bill is settled.

    Piece in the FT

    http://archive.is/9LWXC

  188. Stoker says:

    Todays WOS archive links now over on O/T.

  189. Tinto Chiel says:

    mike cassidy: thanks for that. He gets even oilier on a second viewing. Poor wee Evan.

    I notice comments btl have been disabled.

    I suppose we can draw our own conclusions.

  190. Legerwood says:

    heedtracker says:
    19 February, 2017 at 3:44 pm

    I thought the Queen Mary was out of service by the time they started building the Erskine Bridge in 1967 and the Queen Mary 2 was built in France.

  191. FairFerfochen says:

    Thanks Nana.

  192. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    tamson @ 17:30:

    How to deal with that mindset, I don’t know. If they can be encouraged to raise their heads, a Yes majority is in the bag.

    And therein lies the clue. A “letter from the young to the old”, asking them to make a bequest of a future that lies in their own hands. To put their own past behind them and trust the young and their belief in a different and better future. Written (or indeed spoken) as far as possible by young people to their own grandparents, but in any case to each older person by some (real!) young person.

    I believe that such a direct personal approach could achieve great things.

  193. mike cassidy says:

    In case anyone wondered about my ‘pot kettle black’ remark at 6.07

    The charming Mr Gorka.

    http://archive.is/E8J9R

  194. Legerwood says:

    It is very convenient for a lot of people particularly the Labour Party to blame Mrs Thatcher for the decline in shipbuilding, and other heavy industries, but the truth is they were in decline long before she came on the scene.

    Shipbuilding in Scotland started to decline in the 1900s although two world wars managed to mask that decline.

    At the end of WWII when there was a boom in shipbuilding 20% of World shipping was built in Scotland but by 1958 it was down to 4.5%. Some shipyards in Germany could build ships in half the time it took to build them in Scottish yards.

    This is a link to a list of the closure of shipyards on the Clyde from 1900 onwards
    http://www.inverclydeshipbuilding.co.uk/home/general-history/closure-dates-of-clyde-yards

    If you look at the 1960s 12 yards closed the majority when Harold Wilson’s Labour Government was in power from 1964-69. Anyone know what they did to help the area cope with the loss of jobs. Labour were in power again in the 1970s what did they do to arrest the continuing decline and diversify the economy?

  195. liz says:

    Have to say I’m getting a bit pissed off at Neil MacKay,SH.

    Apparently today he’s written a ‘plague on both your houses’.

    Cybernats are as bad as cyberbrits-this is total deluded nonsense.
    The amount of abuse indy supporters get from Andrew Neil, Torrance etc and the on-line abuse Nicola Sturgeon gets is horrendous.

    Nil’s a bit precious and hates being disagreed with

  196. North chiel says:

    Starlaw@ 0203 pm , ask Fallon ( Cumberland2)??

  197. muttley79 says:

    O/T I read the Sunday Herald today. I see there is another story about the would be Glasgow SNP councillor. How on earth did this individual get past the vetting stage? Does anyone know what is happening here, because we cannot afford many of these self inflicted own goals?

  198. HandandShrimp says:

    Liz

    At least Neil Mackay is acknowledging that the Bitnats have a lot to answer for. Hitherto most articles covering this topic would have a one sentence get out clause “Oh and some No supporters said bad stuff too” in a 500 word article about evil cybernats.

    At least some people are beginning to realise that the alarming stuff doesn’t come from us…it is the crazy right wing ultra Brits that people should worry about.

  199. Hamish100 says:

    Mutley79

    You are absolutely right. Plenty good candidates around that have been with the SNP for years but do not get a look in. Just shows the seclection process is flawed in certain areas. Pity that some candidates seem to be pushed through.

  200. Hamish100 says:

    Selection process…. Should add there is still time to change.

  201. muttley79 says:

    @Hamish100

    I just don’t get it. Neil Hay got panned in the MSM for saying things a lot less serious that this, and the SNP basically through him under a bus. Water under the bridge now, but HTF did this character get past the vetting stage? I cannot believe that the leadership are letting him stand as a candidate. Can he not be replaced? I don’t want sympathisers of political violence on either side in Northern Ireland representing independence supporting parties.

  202. heedtracker says:

    “If you look at the 1960s 12 yards closed the majority when Harold Wilson’s Labour Government was in power from 1964-69. Anyone know what they did to help the area cope with the loss of jobs. Labour were in power again in the 1970s what did they do to arrest the continuing decline and diversify the economy?”

    A lot, if not most of Clyde shipbuilders worked offshore North Sea. While the yards were left to rot. Much of that work ended by the late 90’s. They made guys like Sir Ian Wood rich beyond avarice too.

    Post war Germany rebuilt and modernised their heavy industry, for obvious reasons, all destroyed or taken to Russia as war reparation. They make fantastic study for business managers, post war German development and modernisation, work place and production techniques, managent structures, shop floor inclusions, pay and profit share. It didn’t happen instantly ofcourse. Probably the first we saw of what German industry had modernised in to, was the mark 1 VW Golf.

    Post war UK descended into class war, from 60’s on, all culminating in the Sacrgill miners strike. Tory UK won but they were in it to defeat the UK working class for good. So they destroyed much if not all UK heavy industry.

    Its probably quite hard to conceive class war now, tory victors have been that efficient. Norway for example had no class war. Look at Norway today and then service economy UK.

  203. dakk says:

    liz says:
    19 February, 2017 at 6:59 pm
    Have to say I’m getting a bit pissed off at Neil MacKay,SH.

    ‘Apparently today he’s written a ‘plague on both your house’

    Whoever the hell Neil McKay of Sunday Herald is.

    A plague on his no doubt detached leafy suburban house.

    These salt of the earth Yoon commentators are happy to watch Scotland raped as they look on making pompous comments from the comfort of their Establishment media sinecures.

  204. Fireproofjim says:

    OT
    Sorry. What’s this about an snp candidate and the IRA?

  205. Les Wilson says:

    FairFerfochen says:

    Hi,Use tinyurl.com to easy reduce long links.

  206. bjsalba says:

    That candidate – how old is the information that condemns him?

    If we condemn people who were No out of hand, will other Noes move to YES?

    PS. I would hate some of the things I said/did when young and naively stupid to come to light. Thank goodness it was well before the Internet age as I hit the lucky number plus 0 this year.

  207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Al Dossary says at 9:32 am.

    “Interesting about the unused RORO ramp in Dundee.”

    I went a-Googling today and found this info…

    “3rd November 1984, Page 16
    A NEW Dundee-Rotterdam ro/ro service is being introduced as soon as possible by a new company Dundee Ferries, formed by Dundee Port Authority and European Freight Lines which operates a service between Tilbury and Rotterdam.

    The service will use the Dundee Authority’s £500,000 ro/ro facility which was built in 1979 and never used because of the problem of finding a suitable partner over the intervening years.

    It will be located at Eastern Wharf Dundee where terminal arrangements are being completed.”

    “14th September 1985, Page 13
    DUNDEE FERRIES has commissioned its second rollon/roll-off vessel on the Rotterdam-Dundee run and has taken an option on a third, because of promising results to date.

    The second vessel came into use on September 1 and provides a major increase in the service, with the longest delay now one day.

    The establishing process has been completed successfully, Dundee Ferries says, with a surprisingly high pattern of new business for Dundee.

    Trailers moving into Dundee are getting return loads of between 85 and 90 per cent.”

    “13th July 1985, Page 15
    A PARTY of 13 Dutch trade officials is visiting Dundee this week to assess the potential of Dundee Ferries, Scotland’s new ro-ro ferry service to the European mainland (CM, July 6).

    They are especially interested in the line’s potential for generating transhipment traffic at Rotterdam, including the haulage by Dutch operators of semi-trailers shipped unaccompanied from Dundee.

    On the first round trip Dutch trailers outnumbered British by about five to one.

    But Graham Stratton, Dundee Ferries’ operating manager, described the first few voyages by the Angus as “sea trials” which had established that the ship had the necessary speed and power in reserve to keep to schedule in bad North Sea Weather.”

    This last quote has been mashed by the OCR software used by the web site but you’ll get the gist.

    “17th May 1986, Page 16
    Plans for revival ol Dundee-Rotterdam ro-ro vice have been deferred u the early autumn, says th, Dundee Project, the body involved in city and seafrc revival.

    To avoid undue specula and to assist potential cus tomers to know where tit stand, the Project says th are no immediate plans to sume until the sununer tr trough is over.

    The intention is to plan an early autumn restart.

    The initial service failec capture enough return tra from Scottish hauliers and dropped after a run which showed potential without ing enough business for E dee Ferries, the operator…”

    The above quotes are from links at the “Commercial Motor Archive” web site at:-
    http://archive.commercialmotor.com/search?term=Dundee+Rotterdam

    ———————————————
    To finish off…

    Thepnr mentioned the Caledon. This link has a photo of a young Doon at the launch of the Diomed, in April 1956, around my 4th birthday.
    http://dundee3js.freeforums.org/post3692.html#p3692

    Thepnr – there are quite a number of posts (5 pages of them!) about the Caledon at this page:-
    http://dundee3js.freeforums.org/caledon-shipyard-t134.html

  208. muttley79 says:

    @Fireproofjim

    Yes, unfortunately so. I think his name is Casey, he is a SNP candidate for Glasgow council. He has apparently in the past posted on social media his praise of IRA volunteers, and his hatred of the British army, specifically the SAS, and I think the parachute regiment as well. It appears that he has also attended Republican flute band parades in commemoration of his heroic ‘heroes’. A PR disaster in other words, and it appears completely self inflicted one at that. Not happy…I don’t want Scotland to get dragged into Northern Ireland’s violent divides.

  209. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Muttley79
    Hamish 100. 7.39.

    If your referring to Alan Casey ( pro IRA sympathiser) as a SNP candidate for GCC elections ,Casey was selected on appeal as was Graham Campbell formerly ( rise ) Anne McGlaughlin MP partner ) . The cliques are at work in Proven /Denniston Glasgow Nth east branches , it will only get worse as the Selection / Disciplinary committee’s are of one & the same CLIQUE. Ivan McKee MSP didn’t handle the matter in the 1st instance & it didn’t help matters when people complained at a branch meeting & were told by Ivan to fucking shut up . F/Book Yes2Provan.

  210. Fireproofjim says:

    Thanks Mutley 79.
    You are right. That is a potential PR disaster. Imagine what the MSM will make of that. “SNP supports terrorists who killed Scottish soldiers”
    What were the vetting committee thinking of? Did they know? Can they revisit admitting a mistake?
    We are NOT a terrorists supporting organisation.

  211. muttley79 says:

    @bjsalba

    Not disputing the fact that a lot of us have said and done stupid things in the past. That is one thing, this is another ball game entirely imo.

    That candidate – how old is the information that condemns him?

    It appears from around 2012 so not that long ago. He is commemorating people who were prepared to kill for their political cause, and who died way back in the 1990s FFS. I would feel exactly the same if it was a Loyalist sympathiser, obviously more unlikely to represent the SNP, but it would be as equally as bad. No time for this shit.

  212. CameronB Brodie says:

    Globalisation has been happening in waves, since about the time of the Acts of Union. Throughout this evolutionary process, Britain has struggled to retain the capital it generates, with British industrialists and capitalists finding better returns on their investments in lower-waged economies. This continues today and has left an historical legacy of under-investment in plant and skills, which further undermine industrial competitiveness. The shipbuilding was on shaky ground before Thatcher, though her hostility to unionised labour was the final straw.

    IMHO, Scotland’s response to it’s global circumstances, has been most hindered by being bound to a casino banking system characterised by interest rates best suited to an over-heated south-east of England. Scotland has massive latent development potential just waiting to be unleashed by the correct economic conditions and levers. We’ll have to do something with all that oil and renewables though.

    Unleash the beast!

  213. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I think my last on Ro/Ro…

    The first Ro/Ro facilities were used in Scotland, devised by Thomas Bouch, the builder of the first, ill-fated Tay Railway bridge, and commenced in 1850.

    Ferries took trains across the Forth, between Granton and Burntisland and across the Tay, between Tayport and Broughty Ferry.

    More info here:-
    http://www.cityinspired.com/in-1850-scotland-builds-the-first-roll-on-roll-off-train-ferry-in-the-world/

  214. ian m says:

    We also have Trident as a huge bargaining chip with regards to the shipyards.I would consider taking a bunch of those shop stewards and a few regular workers over to Norway to look at how they have been successful.If we can get our act together perhaps we can get some work from elsewhere in the world as well as our own needs to safeguard our fishing rights.While Brexit is going on our government can have Business & Development teams out looking for new business

  215. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Written (or indeed spoken) as far as possible by young people to their own grandparents, but in any case to each older person by some (real!) young person.

    Yes, good plan. Target the young and get them to target older family members.

    Also, target the young to get off their arses and vote, particularly the 18-25 age group. Their voting rate lags behind their grandparents by 30%!

    Also …

    Target EU citizens. Those that voted in 2014 voted NO because they believed that was they way to guarantee Scotland in the EU. Next time, they should ALL encouraged to vote YES.

    Polls show a big movement of NO to YES because of Brexit. Alas a similar number have moved the other way! They need worked on to highlight that Indy should be the priority over everything else. If they were YES in 2014, they need to be YES again.

    And finally … every 2014 NO voter has to be considered a potential convert. Farmers, fishermen, oil industry, financial services, everything …. because everything will be hit by Brexit.

  216. muttley79 says:

    @ronnieanderson

    If that is right about the situation then that is bad, bad news. There is apparently a part of the SNP in Lanarkshire that have gone rogue in the last few years; last thing we need is for problems in Glasgow before the council elections. Disappointed if that is true about Ivan McKee, as he used to post on here, and seemed an intelligent guy.

    @fireproofjim

    I would punt him as a candidate, and give the vetting people in that constituency a severe dressing down.

    We are NOT a terrorists supporting organisation.

    Exactly!

  217. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    Legerwood 6.29pm

    “I thought the Queen Mary was out of service by the time they started building the Erskine Bridge in 1967 and the Queen Mary 2 was built in France”

    Many large ships have passed under the Erskine Bridge since it opened.

    Also UIE in Clydebank built the Morcombe Bay jack-up rigs in the 1980s and when being were towed down river with their legs fully up, they only missed the bridge by inches.

    And hopefully we will need that height in the bridge for future orders in the Upper Clyde.

  218. McDuff says:

    Legerwood

    If shipbuilding was in terminal decline at that time how come countries like France and Finland were building huge ocean liners when we were closing our yards. Thatcher deliberately dismantled the manufacturing industry in Scotland which was starved of any meaningful investment.

  219. Brian Powell says:

    How do folks who THINK somebody’s name is Casey then know so many details about that person, I wonder?

  220. bjsalba says:

    @at 8.28pm

    You say “it appears”. Whart is the source of your information?

    Oh and by the way, 5 years is a long time in politics especially for a young person. Maybe not so much for an old fogey like me.

  221. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Brian Powell

    BECAUSE his name is Casey ?.

  222. twathater says:

    I worked in most of the shipyards on the Clyde ,Fairfields ,John Browns ,Stephens , Scott Lithgow , In Dundee Robb Caledon , Aberdeen Hall Russell and others , in all of these places and yards they all faced the same problem , under investment , the usual GREED, don’t invest in new technology take as much as you can sorry ( steal ) as much as you can with no thought to the future , who cares about the workers there are plenty more to be sacrificed .When they began to fail it was up to the good old Labour to disown them .

    Scotland’s fate to put up with greed and incompetence When will we wake up

  223. muttley79 says:

    @Brian Powell

    How do folks who THINK somebody’s name is Casey then know so many details about that person, I wonder?

    Maybe because they had never heard about the individual in question, until reading his inflammatory and downright ignorant views on political violence in Ireland, for two weeks in a row, in the Sunday Herald?

    @bjaalba

    Oh and by the way, 5 years is a long time in politics especially for a young person. Maybe not so much for an old fogey like me.

    Are you seriously defending this character? I want us to achieve independence, not get sidetracked because of highly divisive views about Northern Ireland.

  224. Golfnut says:

    ‘re Shipbuilding.

    There was a rather excellent defence advice paper produced prior to indyref 1, which outlined comprehensively the structure of a Scottish Defence force, including the naval element. I recommend reading for any in doubt that Scotland would be defenceless.
    One of its recommendations was that consideration should be given to not being involved with the MOD, instead to consider building the Swedish Absolom ‘ Frigate ‘ as an alternative to the type 26. A proven and developed model, cheaper to produce and could be modernised to accommodate a Command vessel.

    The recommendation was for 4 Frigates, 4 OPV’s, 4 Patrol Vessels,2 F1 diesel powered German Submarines and 2 Ten Thousand tonne support vessels. This represents a massive force in comparison to current situation which is zero.

    They also recommended that Scotland should consider the Saab Grippen as an alternative to the Typhoon, basically a quarter of the price.

    The point of course is that as an Independent country we choose what suits Scotland’s needs. The above inventory of requirements for the Navy would keep Govan busy for quite a while, allowing time to develop alternatives and diversity.

    If someone has copy, worth posting. The SNP did not promote these proposals as they should have,allowing the unionists to rant on about being defenceless.
    Sorry for the long post.

  225. stu mac says:

    @Legerwood
    ==============

    There was a very good documentary a few years ago about Scottish shipbuilding. Because of the 2nd World War Britain had built up shipbuilding as it was vital for our survival; indeed after that war many countries’ industries round the world were devastated so there was little competition and huge profits to be made.

    However the equipment and work systems were badly out of date and by the time other countries had built up shipping industries with brand new modern facilities we were finding it difficult to compete and shipbuilding in the UK went into decline.

    The thing is, while we were making the huge profits we could have invested in new facilities and equipment but management were happy to squeeze every penny out by not investing – they would retire on nice pensions after all.

    It has to be said some workers (and unions) took the short term view also: the industry may have survived in a healthy state after investment in modern facilities but it would have meant job losses. It was inevitable that other countries would have caught up with us and UK shipbuilding would have shrunk but with proper planning and investment it could still have been in a reasonably healthy state to this day.

  226. yesindyref2 says:

    @Heed
    I’ve put together a posting on that Think Defence article, waiting in moderation, so see if it gets published. It’s polite but a little bit critical!

  227. Hamish100 says:

    For someone to support the murderers of innocents in Northern Ireland is wrong.

    I speak as a Christian.

    I speak as a member off the SNP.

    Does the SNP want my vote at council elections or not.

    Either way I will always vote for my countries independence.

    Now get the twat concerned off the candidates list. There are better individuals who are a credit to their country and party. MSP’s stop putting in your place men and women.

  228. Nana says:

    @Golfnut

    Not sure if one of these is what you are looking for

    Indy White paper page 232 defence
    http://www.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

    http://www.indyrefanswers.com/defence/

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    @Hamish100
    There’s going to be an awful lot going at Barrow by the looks of it. They’ll be:

    1). Building Astute according to plan
    2). Building Successor According to plan
    3). Building the Type 26 NOT according to plan
    4). Building the Type 31 NOT according to plan
    5). Berthing, R&Ring, maintaining, refuelling and reloading the Astute NOT according to plan
    6). Berthing, R&Ring, maintaining, refuelling and reloading the Vanguard using floating dock NOT according to plan
    7). Storing all the supplies needed for a base, not a construction yard, NOT according to plan

    That’ll be fund.

  230. heedtracker says:

    Here we go,Herald, 21 hours ago,

    “Outrage as top Theresa May aide claims ‘threats of violence’ a feature of Scottish politics”

    Thug life, right at the centre of planet toryboy.

  231. ronnie anderson says:

    Im not bumping my gums on Alan Casey through ignorance I do converse with a lot of people ,including people from Proven & other parts of Glasgow. As for Ivan McKee msp I have a lot of respect for Ivan but I draw the line at Nepotism & Cronyism ( the same issues that SNP Nth Lanarkshire have ).

    These cancers should be cut out from political parties other wise its just replacing like for like, some of these people aren’t there for the People but for they’re own wellbeing & gravitas.

  232. Artyhetty says:

    Today I saw this article and just thought, what utter utter lying s***s, and why on earth did anyone believe them. Please tell me that people will no be so blinded next time.

    Ship building, you can watch some interesting short films from 1800s to the 1990s on the national library of Scotland ‘movingimage.nls.uk’ site. I got carried away watching ‘Forth-Powerhouse For Industry’. 1968. Wow, had no idea that just one part of Scotland, the Lothians and Fife, produced so much, and manufactured a whole huge tapestry of goods. Blimey, why was there so much poverty even in the 70s then? Industry and manufacturing was huge, then there’s the fishing and agriculture. Plenty oil then as well, have a watch.

    Why was Scotland’s infrastructure kept to a bare minimum. It almost seems like Scotland was really thriving then. Lots of ports to send stuff abroad, and to import. Hmm.

  233. Valerie says:

    All this talk of violence, blood on the streets.

    BBC1 kicks off series tonight SS-GB, based on a Len Deighton novel. Basically, the Germans won the Battle of Britain, but the resistance fights on.

    Timing a bit off, or preparing us?

    Wonder how the Germans view that? Do other countries make series about all the British atrocities?

  234. Artyhetty says:

    Ok, this should not appear twice, it said it was a ‘dublicate comment, grr, no it was not.

    Today I saw this article and just thought, what utter utter lying s***s, and why on earth did anyone believe them. Please tell me that people will no be so blinded next time. I am talking about the content of the article btw!

    Ship building, you can watch some interesting short films from 1800s to the 1990s on the national library of Scotland ‘movingimage.nls.uk’ site. I got carried away watching ‘Forth-Powerhouse For Industry’. 1968. Wow, had no idea that just one part of Scotland, the Lothians and Fife, produced so much, and manufactured a whole huge tapestry of goods. Blimey, why was there so much poverty even in the 70s then? Industry and manufacturing was huge, then there’s the fishing and agriculture. Plenty oil then as well, oh yeh, plenty of the stuff, have a watch.

    Why was Scotland’s infrastructure kept to a bare minimum. It almost seems like Scotland was really thriving then. Lots of ports to send stuff abroad, and to import. Hmm. Where did all the revenues go I wonder.

  235. Valerie says:

    @ ronnie

    I know you aren’t one to bump your gums, and as an SNP member, just getting to work on distribution for local elections, I’m pretty pissed off at what I’m reading about this Casey affair.

    It looks like a free gift for the opposition. Let’s hope this is sorted out pronto, as others say – no time for this shit.

    Very disappointed in Ivan McKee, but not overly surprised.

  236. heedtracker says:

    Wonder how the Germans view that? Do other countries make series about all the British atrocities?

    Very rich media corp, stuffed with upper class twits devoid of actual talent, WW2 drama is all they know, that and mega blasts about the royals.

  237. The pace quickens by the day. The world is waiting for us. Today’s front page on the Sunday Times is the half wit factor in full flight. They have no where to go but to try to frighten the daft and once they stoop to insulting Scotland the game’s up.

    The Forward Shop at 196, Argyll Street, Dunoon,,PA23 8RN has Saltires (5ft x 3ft, polyester with sleeve and eyeholes) for sale. Plain Saltire £3.50, YES Saltire, Euro Stars Saltire £5.00. Also DVDs of “London Calling- How the BBC stole the Referendum” at £2.00. Posted to you with no postage charge. Cheques to be made out to YES Cowal.

  238. Golfnut says:

    @Nana,
    Thanks Nana, I have those, they are unfortunately the rather insipid, watered down version I was alluding to in the Scot Gov white paper. I did have a copy stored, but I can’t access right now.
    I will keep trying, and post as soon as I can.
    Thanks again.

  239. heedtracker says:

    Leave votes remorse PUBLISHED: December 24, 2016 8:00 am LAST UPDATED: January 9, 2017 1:49 pm

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2016/12/24/we-dont-want-out-anymore-shock-poll-reveals-readers-have-changed-minds-on-brexit/

  240. Ken500 says:

    The situation in NI was caused by Westminster Unionists. A disgrace, The way the people of Ireland were treated, especially Catholics was a disgrace. The Home Rule movement was led by a Protestant landowner. Charles Stewart Parnell. The Catholics were not allowed to vote or to hold office. Carry a sword or own a horse. The same in Scotland. Tied to the land. Then brutally cleared off their land. They had to emigrate, often to the US.

    The Irish wanted Home Rule, The Westminster Gov treated them appalling. Exporting food from Ireland during a famine. Millions dies. Ireland was illegalled Partioned against the majority wishes in 1922 by Lloyd George. This led to a Civil War. The Westminster Unionists were responsible fir the murders and killings. Michael Collins died. There was Home Rule legislation agreed which would have gone through the HoC two weeks after the start of the 1WW. It was delayed by the Irish Nationalists. Some fought in the 1WW. It was then reneged upon. The NI Unionists used the 1WW as a cover to gun run and obtain a stash of weapons. Captain Crawford. The boat was nearly intercepted near to Glasgow. The British authorities turned a blind eye. The Irish were having a peaceful protest and were fired upon by British troops.

    The Partition of Ireland against the majority wishes, no universal sugffrage led to the violence in NI. It was an apartheid state (six counties) supported by Westminster Unionists. The Catholics were not allowed to vote. All the public jobs and housing when to the Masons with the old handshake. People in NI turned to the gun because they did not have the vote to fight the injustice. Even today the flag waving etc is a total disgrace and should be banned. An act of provocation. People in Protestant housing estates are fired upon if they take the flags down after flying for a month.

    The British State was responsible for acts of brutality and violence. The Black and Tans. ‘Bloody Sunday’ etc. People are entitled to their opinion. Without being described as ‘terrorists’ supporters. The British State comes out badly in every eventuality. Extra Public money is used to compensate. NI (2million+) raises £28Billion in taxes and get another £14Billion = £42Billion. Norwegian levels of funding. The NI Unionists (11) MP’s support the Tories. 8 Nationalist MP (Sin Fein for understandable reason) don’t go to Westminster to counter act but claim £Millions of expenses.

    Demographics mean the Irish could vote to be re-united. The generous (UK) settlement might be an negative influence. Thatcher held some responsiblity for the death of Bobby Sands. She refused to agree to terms to stop the hunger strike.

  241. Artyhetty says:

    twathater@9.01pm

    Some of those yards are included in the films on the movingimage.nls.uk site. You can search and browse for the category, and era.

    The unionists sucked Scotland dry, and spat her out like a sour pip.

  242. Fireproofjim says:

    Ken500
    Yes we know all about the Irish Troubles, but what we don’t need as an SNP candidate is a man who supports or glorifies the killing which went on there in recent years. There is no place in Scotland or the SNP for any approval of terrorism from any side. This is the complete opposite of what I have told everybody about the peaceful civic nationalism of the SNP and I am bitterly disappointed that any selection committee considers that this man is a suitable candidate.
    I will be writing to my MP and MSP urging that action be taken. What is it about Lanarkshire?

  243. DerekM says:

    jeez i still cant believe some folks think everything the UK government(remember them?)told them about Ireland is true.

    Go talk to them about it you will find their story is completely different and we got fed a lot of shit,some things never change hmmm.

    Take a good look around see the orange order for what it is a fascists club for ultra right wing britnazis spouting fear,bigotry,hatred and division.

    A cloak of lies and deceit and false flag attacks keep you all scared shitless vote for mad maggie for a safer and secure Empire.

    Jeez i give up 🙁

  244. Sinky says:

    Labour Tory local election alliance ploy uncovered in Falkirk

    http://snp-falkirk.co.uk/?p=2656

    Tory Lord Advocate General putting political presure on Scottish Law Society

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15102369.Advocate_General_for_Scotland_in_row_with_Law_Society_over_Brexit/?ref=mr&lp=18

  245. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Valerie
    The good men/women who worked they’re arses of to get Ivan McKee & Anne McGlaughlin elected have been cast aside , a full scale impartial investigation should be undertaken by the SNP hierarchy excluding anyone connected to the Glasgow branches , or this situation will drag on & sour the Council elections & lose the SNP candidates votes.

    I would hope that SNP members on Wings bring this to the attention of the Hierarchy & cut these cancers out & sooner the better.

  246. Footsoldier says:

    Alan Casey is in lots of newspapers as having passed vetting as an SNP candidate.

    What on earth are the SNP doing allowing this guy to stand and providing own goals for the media? Crazy!

    I do worry that the SNP cannotbe depended on to run the indy2ref and why are we not hearing really robust rebuttals of Unionist claims. At indyref1 I awaited the all out attack in vain and I do hope indyref2 is not going to be the same.

  247. xaracen says:

    Golfnut, it may have been the RUSI report, “A The Blue Bonnets”, here,

    https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/whr_3-12_a_the_blue_bonnets.pdf

    Apologies if this isn’t the one you are thinking of.

  248. Robert Graham says:

    A bit late I know it seems my earlier post reguarding The Donald’s spokesman mr Gorka has maybe confused some folks.
    The reason for my post was to highlight a method of dealing with the BBC that can effectively be used against them by the Independence movement and the SNP.

    Not as some people have taken as an endorsement of Trump or indeed Mr Gorka

    Please read a post before commenting it saves confusion thanks .

  249. Sinky says:

    Good article on Scottish Six

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/02/19/the-joy-of-six/

    Quoting Sunday Herald editorial

    ” it is beyond ridiculous, beyond insulting and beyond toleration that Scotland is being denied its own nightly news programme. Any free country must be able to reflect the world as it sees it through its own independent media.

  250. robertknight says:

    Footsoldier @10:48

    Couldn’t agree more…

    As a former SNP member and candidate at 2 x local elections, (“robertknight” is a NdP so don’t bother to look me up), I’m having a hard time understanding why with a membership of 120,000 odd that the SNP need to resort to the type the press have been highlighting this past week.

    Sure people may have the odd skeleton, but those of a pro-IRA or Settler Watch nature – come on!

  251. Lenny Hartley says:

    I can’t believe that the people responsible for positively vetting Casey to be a Counciller could be so naive. There is going to be an MSM and Bbc/Stv shitstorm linking the SNP to Irish Terrorism , no doubt that idiot Mason will be quoted as well.

    I have emailed my Constituancy heid bummer and informed of my extreme displeasure. if McKee is treating his branch colleagues as claimed , the whip should be withdrawn.

  252. Golfnut says:

    @Saracens,
    Thanks, but no. Much appreciate the help. I have it saved on my old phone as a PDF file, I can’t open any of the PDF’s so can’t identify which it is. Will keep trying.

  253. Hamish100 says:

    Ken500

    We know the history of Ireland.

    However blowing up Irish people is murder. Even if you are Irish. End of story.
    One huge credit of the independence movement in this country is our arguments are determined by the ballot box. It takes some mindset to parade up and down the streets in Scotland for pro IRA or for that matter UDA murderers. Complete twats. As I stated above there are better candidates around. Personally the guy should not have been allowed in the snp. Who are the Idiots who supported him?

  254. Proud Cybernat says:

    Blast from the Past…

    http://imgur.com/a/FkQ6N

  255. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’ve just sent an email to my two SNP councillors, my SNP MP and my SNP MSP (forgot I had a couple of SNP MEPs as well). It went like this…

    Hi Chris, Joe, Ken and Lynne.

    It looks like our party is gonna have to send a task force into NE Glasgow, to eradicate the apparent cronyism that is going on there.

    This sort of scandal is the last thing we need, in the short time before the council elections in May.

    Why give the BUM bullets to fire against us?

    How Allan Casey came to be adopted as a prospective councillor has to be investigated, as soon as possible. And how certain “partners” came to be adopted as candidates also.

    We don’t need this.

    Brian.

  256. Still Positive says:

    Re Allan Casey.

    This weekend prospective SNP Councillors had an away day in Stirling and some disquiet was taken to Derek MacKay from local branches and the vetting procedure is going to be looked at again.

    The main reason is that 2 of our branch members failed vetting. One of them would have been a great Councillor, and one who was selected told me he was terrible on the day which I can only put down to nerves on his part.

    The other, who is a great guy, doesn’t fit the SNP ‘image’ and I wouldn’t have picked him either.

    So maybe the relevant SNP branch has raised their disquiet on Allan Casey this weekend too.

  257. Reminds me of the treacherous self interested greedy people that voted to join this union,a country bought with English debt,no change from that even today.Ships being built in South Korea how foreign is that??Each of of us being played off against each other, divide and conquer. The oil,is Scottish oil,why would they gloat if it was British,and receiveing a low priority on their list. The fishermen are a bargaining chip,for the car factories and London finance. Trident at over £205,billion should be scrapped or moved to the Thames,and they should pay for it themselves,and stop wasting the revenue from Scotland,s resources.Finally I was not born in 1707 when there were riots.

  258. bugsbunny says:

    Years ago football fans used to chant out on the terraces (to Archie MacPherson); “Archie, Archie give us the score”. Now we should all gather outside wherever Scotland in Union is held and chant, “Archie, Archie give us the truth”. Maybe not as pleasant to the ears as “Hey, Hey L.B.J how many kids have you killed today?”

    Lying old sod. Not a patch on Arthur Montford.

  259. Robert Graham says:

    Way past my bedtime but, information on internal workings at SNP branches while maybe ok in private this is possibly not the best idea putting them up here, other people not conducive to Independence read comments made here so maybe a little care please when posting.

  260. Meg merrilees says:

    Areas of possible oil and gas off Scotland may have been missed.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39008109

    Single malt whisky exports topped £1bn for the first time in 2016.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39022740

  261. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: the “internal workings at SNP branches”.

    The problems at NE Glasgow have been well discussed on here today. It’s in the public domain, come hell or high water.

  262. Huge disquiet in our branch well about a hugely respected, clever, committed member,on the branch committee with years of work and in fact our favoured candidate being turned down. We are not leaving it like that. We are going to demand an enquiry into a process that ignores the opinion of local branches and appears to allow interference and undue influence from other sources. We may stand the candidates we want anyway and see what the hierarchy does about it. I don’t want to remain in a party which has abandoned its democratic roots and is run by a self serving clique.

  263. Footsoldier

    It should be remembered that these person are not in fact chosen as candidates. They have been vetted but the local members will chose the candidates.

  264. Grouse Beater says:

    Of black and gay and macho men: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-dII

  265. Still Positive says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @12.46.

    To be remembered by all. We endorsed our candidates at the branch meeting last Monday.

  266. Chick McGregor says:

    @Thepnr
    “My grandfather was a crane driver in the yards, mu old man was a welder in Fergusons on the Clyde. I served my time as a Shipwright in the Caledon in Dundee.

    I know very well what shipbuilding meant to Scotland in the past.

    Closing the shipyards was a purely political decision taken by Thatcher and her Tory bastard cabinet. It had little to do with economics and everything to do with destroying Trade Union power in the UK.”

    We moved to Inverclyde in 1981.

    When you drove along East Hamilton St/Port Glasgow Rd after shortly after ‘lousin time’ in those days, it was like a football match coming out, 10,000 shipyard workers crossing the road.

    Sure, it was a rough and ready industrial conurbation, but there was local pride and well defined working class values.

    And why shouldn’t they have had? in communities which had built the most famous ships of their era.

    When Japan and Korea started winning ship building orders with suspected hidden subsidies, the EC decided to try to recreate a more level playing field with subsidies for ship-building towns in Europe.

    All Thatcher had to do was designate Port Glasgow and Greenock as one of the UK’s ship building towns to qualify for the grant, but she would not, despite doing so for other towns in England.

    Even without the EC grant, bids from Inverclyde companies came very close to winning some contracts and did win a few but the inevitable result in a stacked market spelled the eventual end of that region being a World leader in the field.

    When the yards closed one by one, we were able to witness the clearly devastating effect it had on the community.

    Financially, of course, but much more tellingly on the self-esteem and cultural values of the area.

    Once proud working men turning to drink, their children turning to worse.

    It was heartbreaking to watch.

  267. twathater says:

    Artyhetty @10.10pm

    Hi thanks for that info will check it out, like the old newsreels and info

  268. yesindyref2 says:

    When it comes to Indy Ref 2, and these so-called “independent thinktanks” like the CEBR the Sunday Times is seizing on with Unionist Greece-like glee, we have two things in our favour we didn’t have last time. First we have The National to give us a headline like “Report saying independent Scotland would be ‘new Greece’ flawed, says SNP” and second, the CEBR has lying form – as do the others – from Indy Ref 1.

    “report” from CEBR Sep 8th 2014 – 10 days before the first Indy Ref, with their crap estimates about 2012/13

    https://www.cebr.com/reports/scottish-government-deficit-assessment/

    and reality (as it were) from GERS 2012/13

    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2014/03/7888

    Compare the two (I’ve done that in the follow-up posting), CEBR are outrageously Wrong Wrong Wrong – quelle surprise.

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    From the CEBR lying propaganda report Sep 8th 2014:

    “First, Scotland’s share of UK public spending now appears to have been 9.6% in 2012/13 according to new data released by the ONS at the end of July in Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses, whereas its share of the UK’s on-shore economy was only 8.0%. Assuming taxes roughly proportional to shares of GVA, this would imply a non oil deficit of 1.6% of UK GVA, which may not seem much but amounts to 20.6% of Scottish on shore GVA.”

    From GERS 2012/13 on the other hand we have this:

    “In 2012-13, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £47.6 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue).
    … This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.
    … In 2012-13, Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £17.6 billion (14.0% of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue”

    So their “appears to have been 9.6%” was actually much less at 9.3%, and their “only 8.0%” was actually more at 8.2% (our population was around 8.4% of the UK’s), resulting in their estimate (albeit GVA not GDP) of “20.6% ” was in reality 14.0%.

  270. yesindyref2 says:

    That “onshore deficit” by the way has since gone like this:

    2012-13 – £17.6 bn – 14.0%
    2013-14 – £16.4 bn – 12.2%
    2014-15 – £16.7 bn – 11.9%
    2015-16 – £14.9 bn – 10.1%

    So much for the Centre for Exaggeration and Bullshit Reports.

  271. Ken500 says:

    The Media does not run the SNP. People have different views and opinions about certain situations and historical facts. Viva the difference. SNP meetings are supposed to be private. Do the members want to adhere to some rules but not others. Briefing the Media against the Party. There are internal provision for complain. Or would members rather aid the corrupt Media? They don’t need any encouragement. They can say what they like, they won’t succeed. They are just destroying their industry. Sales falling and rising debt.

    People who know the history of Ireland (and Scotland) will not complain. There are two sides to the dialogue. Not just the Media Non Dom tax evaders lies. The way the Irish people were treated is a scandal. People have an legitimate reason to complain. The British State, Westminster Unionists, was responsible for most of the violence in Ireland. The Partition 1923. Scotland has always gone through the Ballot Box because they could. 1928 Universal Suffrage.

    The complete and utter Westminster lies. They are still at it. Scotland would not have any so called ‘Deficit’ but for Westminster appalling decisions. No matter how they twist the figures. Thatcher illegally took all the Oil revenues and scorched earth every manufacturing facility in Scotland. Then kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Labour did the same. The McCrone Report buried. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Now Brexit. A disaster. The Tories complete and utter muck up. The carry on will run on until the Tories are voted out. They committed electoral fraud to do it. Corbyn/Labour are useless. Scotland could be out of the economic mess and be a fairer, more equal prosperous country.

  272. Ken500 says:

    The Times have changed their tune. They recognised Scotland had no Deficut before Indy1. The liars. Murdoch should be in jail for bribing public officials and cheer leading illegal wars. Murdoch running the Gov? They are just a corrupt cabel of criminals. Westminster crooks. They line their pockets on people’s misery.

    May abuses the vulnerable, especially women, children and the elderly. Sanctioning and starving people. The Tories are killing the elderly off. Older folk should watch how they vote in Scotland. With social care and increased NHS spending. What would Scotland be like without the SNP Gov? Keeping unemployment down and investing in essential services. Standing up to the Tories. The difference to Scotland is visible. Essential roads, bridges, and railways being built.

    Some folk have short memories arguing over the candidates, when they should be giving support. Have they nothing better to do? Get out and do some canvassing, if possible. The band is getting back together. Indy2 campaign has started already. The flags are coming out.?

  273. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2

    Looks like their starting the rinse and repeat of ‘basket case’ propaganda again dads.

    D’you think someone should point out to the poor dears the mahoosive hole in that logic?

    If Scotland is like, could be, actually is (fill in as appropriate) Greece, there is only one system of government and one institution responsible for such a state of affairs.

    The yoonitariat need to decide. We’re either better together because our economy is peachy and safe, or its a basket case case because of better togetherness. They really, really can’t have it both ways.

    However, let’s take them at face value. Scotland is a fiscal car crash. We’re NOT independent. Their system of government is in charge of the economy and has been, for over three hundred years. As an employer/end user of their stewardship of the economy, I’d mibbies want to know who is responsible for running my economy into a ditch? Wouldn’t you?

    I’d mibbies also want to know why I should retain the services of the folk responsible, folk who apparently couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery?

    Then there are those who wish to scrap Barnett and end Holyrood. The type of bonehead who reckons Scots get too much money and too much responsibility…. mmmmmm. They’re more than happy to parrot the ‘think tank’ basket case analogy. So just to be clear, let’s follow that train of thought.

    We’re supposedly a basket case economy, but they’d like to see it run even further into the ground? And that should be an acceptable proposal to people why precisely? We’re so better together, we should accept catastrophic stewardship of our economy and in fact take a cut in a model their system of government created and which they’ve run badly for, by their own admission mind, such an extended period of time.

    Just a thought for the policy wonks have a read down these threads.

    Their sales pitch could use some work.

  274. TheItalianJob says:

    @Ken500

    Good summary on the current issues and as usual you point everyone to the real main issues Scotland has faced in its industrial decline since Thatcher and subsequent to that the Blair and labour admin. But as you rightly point out this even pre-dated the Thatcher era as the secrecy surrounding the hidden McCrone report.

    Good posts as always.

  275. bjsalba says:

    From WIKI

    The Ball State University Center for Business and Economic Research (CBER), formerly the Bureau of Business Research, is an economic policy and forecasting research center housed within the Miller College of Business at Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana, USA.

  276. TheItalianJob says:

    Reporting Scotland this morning.

    More potential oil West of the Hebrides/Shetland with good possibilities.

    Sales/exports of malt whisky at a new high of £1Bn. As previously reported this year Scots whisky exports this year topping a new high of £5Bn in total.

    Sure we are running a real deficit and getting near to Greece in debt volumes. If any one believes that than more the fool.

  277. TheItalianJob says:

    Apologies. Previous post should have read that Whisky exports this year topped £4Bn.

  278. TheItalianJob says:

    Previous post should have read whisky exports topping a new high of £4Bn.

  279. manandboy says:

    IndyRef14, as Stu illustrates so clearly above in yet another superb post, was just one massive, carefully planned propaganda lie after another. But all this lying has been adjudged as being legally of no consequence and does not affect the result, which even the Scottish Government and the SNP concluded was fair and correct.

    We then repeat the process in EuroRef16, with the same kind of declaration at the end – Brexit means Brexit, meaning, the result must stand and may not be challenged, even though, it was a fraud and a disaster for Democracy.

    These same elements are at the heart of The Carmichael Case, in which reality is suspended because it is in the sphere of politics, and in which we are told that a lie is the truth and that black, in consequence, is white.

    The UK has shown itself, in the majority, to be in the grip of the Emperor’s New Clothes Syndrome, which is the denial of the nakedly obvious truth.
    A majority which includes the members of the Supreme Court which looked at the case and then proceeded to spot the legal gnat, while turning a blind eye to the camel in the case, which has morphed in recent years into The Elephant in the Room.

    And so we have Parliament, the Government, the Supreme Court and 17 million Leave voters staring at a naked Emperor in the form of an EU referendum won through lying, and declaring, ‘nothing wrong here, move along’.

    But of course this is by this time already a habit, which started in IndyRef14, and raises the question of how to break the habit in UK elections of the future, when the formula of lying in a ballot has proved so successful in achieving for the Government, the desired result in each case.

    It should now be fairly obvious that, having perpetrated so much fraud in the 2008 Casino Bankster heist, and encouraged by IndyRef14 and the Carmichael verdict, the British Establishment has applied it’s criminal preference to include the ballot box in England, thus securing a UK-wide franchise.

    We can also see that the EU Referendum slogan of ‘taking back control’ was nothing less than a huge projection onto the EU of England’s own continuing loss of internal control.

    The UK is now in the absurd position of having a Rule of Law in which lying in any transaction is fraud, with politics being the one highly notable exception. Politics is not only above the Law, it is outwith reality. It is become the stuff of fairytales.

    It is a fact that only the people of North Korea, among a global population of seven and a half billion, do not believe they are the most brainwashed nation on earth.

    Closely followed by the British.

  280. Macart says:

    Just in time for brekkie Nana. 🙂

  281. Nana says:

    @Macart

    I thought I’d best get going early today after my late offerings yesterday morn.

    @Smallaxe hello, where’s my coffee??

  282. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good Morning,

    Links for breakfast, “if that Macart hasn’t devoured them all!” 🙂 the greedy man.Kettle’s on. Enough for Three. 😉

    Peace Always

  283. Tam Jardine says:

    yesindyref2

    I’ve yet to see a copy of the report and have requested one from the CEBR.

    Curious tweet from the author and director of CEBR:

    Douglas McWilliams

    @DMcWilliams_UK

    thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotla…. A new take on Edinburgh ‘the Athens of the North’!

    12:34 am – 19 Feb 2017

    Independent Scotland ‘the new Greece’

    As Scotland faces the prospect of a second independence referendum, one of Britain’s foremost economic forecasters has claimed the country would suffer recession and Greek-style austerity cuts of…

    That wee exclamation mark makes it sound like he relishes the idea. He joyously tweets links to the express and predictions that we’ll be living in a THIRD WORLD country etc.

    Do you know where I’d find this elusive report?

  284. Macart says:

    @Smallaxe

    Definitely in the mood for a double hit of caffeine this morning and I never refuse extra links.

    Sausages…mmmmm… is there nothing they cannot do? 🙂

  285. Smallaxe says:

    Macart says:

    “Sausages…mmmmm… is there nothing they cannot do? ?”

    Yes, they can’t tap dance! 🙂

    Peace Always

  286. Clydebuilt says:

    Call Kaye …… Where do you get your news. Who do you trust
    This morning

  287. Ken500 says:

    Space travel from Prestwick. Australia in 3 hours. Westminster wastes £Billion extending Heathrow. Redundant before it is finished.

    Westminster £1.7Trn deficit. Ecomonist liars. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. There is another way.

  288. Frances says:

    Yesterday’s Guardian had an article about Brexit and issues regarding the border between the province and the country of Ireland. In the comments section btl one stated that Ireland had only joined the EU because the UK had been Ireland’s biggest trading partner and it should therefore consider re-joining the UK. One of the responses was this:

    “Professor Ciarán Burke, Jena, Germany, gave a good answer to your question in a letter to the Irish Times, 17/02/2107: ‘Following the UK into the EEC made good sense. The UK had been our principal trading partner since the foundation of the state, placing Ireland’s economy at the mercy of British tariffs (and destroying our economy twice in 50 years). Community rules precluded further British protectionism, but also had the side-effect of diversifying Irish trade, to the extent that we now export a far greater volume to the rest of the EU than to the UK. Full economic independence was our reward for our engagement with Europe, while structural funds and development opportunities have radically transformed the country.
    Following the UK out of the EU would be folly. To place ourselves once again at the mercy of a benevolent, borderless, British vision of the future would represent a failure to learn from our own history.
    Nonetheless, it is true that a hard border may have a variety of consequences. With Northern Irish farmers likely to lose half their income through lost EU subsidies, and with heavy tariffs on UK exports likely to be imposed under World Trade Organisation rules, while British businesses flee to Dublin, many up North may begin to ask themselves whether Ulster unionism or European unionism makes more sense for the future of the six counties.
    Brexit means Brexit? It may mean more besides’.”

    We should all be very wary of any ‘soft’ brexit for Scotland whilst remaining in the UK. Independence is the only safe route.

  289. Dorothy Devine says:

    Clydebuilt , if that is her question I hope someone phones in to say ‘sure as shit NOT the BBBBC”

    As to the ‘Irish’ question , folk should remember the lies to which we have been treated over the years and apply that knowledge.

  290. Les Wilson says:

    Clydebuilt says:

    Yeah it will be interesting to hear their plants saying we trust the BBC, they are the best, what they say is the truth, we love the BBC.

    I wait to hear how the pull it off.

  291. BJ says:

    Hi Kaye I get my news from badges. I saw one today that said

    Is that true or did you hear it on Call Kaye with an E

  292. Breeks says:

    Independent Scotland ‘the new Greece’

    As Scotland faces the prospect of a second independence referendum, one of Britain’s foremost economic forecasters has claimed the country would suffer recession and Greek-style austerity cuts…

    http://www.euronews.com/2017/02/18/opinion-greeces-economy-strongly-recovers-for-first-time-since-2010

    Greece isn’t out of the woods, but I don’t expect thats going to stop Unionists regurgitating the same old crap. Frankly, I’ve never seen where or why there ever was a worthwhile comparison to be drawn between Scotland and Greece in the first place, but of course, Unionism needed a cheap sound bite to smear and deride Scotland. Greece was in trouble, and that was more than adequate excuse.

    It’s just like the two dusty old foggies on the Newman and Baddeil comedy show…”See that economy failing, people rioting and queuing at the banks to get their money out? That’s your economy, that is.”….. Yeah, whatever.

    And the Brits wonder why the EU just can’t wait to see the back of the UK… The British really don’t see it, do they? They just don’t. There is no self effacing awareness whatsoever.

    From my own perspective, I struggle to think of any other economy which has surrendered itself to the vagrancies of populism and xenophobia, and turned its back on good sense, and the block solidarity of the EU, stuck two fingers up to its single market, and did so without having any Plan B for what happens next, only to be rescued from the Abyss with a “miraculous” US Trade Deal hatched in 5 minutes between Trump and Farage, that will deregulate the big hawklike US Corporations about to descend on what’s left of the UK’s economy and state. Quite frankly, it takes a special breed to think that one up, and I can’t really imagine the much maligned Greeks doing anything that stupid.

    Truth be known, for years, and indeed decades, “Brexit” is going to be the international benchmark for gross National stupidity. Give yourselves a big pat on the back UK. That international reknown you craved is already in the bag. You have the world’s attention….

  293. Les Wilson says:

    Well the BBC had a well chosen, well filtered group, on today in
    their Call K program.
    That’s it really,nothing controversial, nothing much. No real dissenting voices about the BBC as would be expected.
    Total crap.

  294. gus1940 says:

    What has happened to Newsnet this morning? – I keep getting ‘403 Access Forbidden’ or words to that effect.

  295. Les Wilson says:

    Lets start a hundred Pro Indy think tanks, I think that would help counter some of the dubious think tanks the UK has installed to push their odious agenda’s.

    There has to be Indy professional people and academics who would contribute in their area of expertise.

  296. liz says:

    @Frances – that letter is a keeper.

    Exactly what happens in Scotland we are at their mercy for trading controls.
    Our country will boom free from WM shackles.

    As for candidate choice. It is up to the members to vote for/ against candidates and some in the past whilst passing selection, have been rejected by the membership.

    But legitimate complaints should always be pursued.
    A lot of folk are lending the SNP their vote until indy and they need to remember that.

  297. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m sad to see that Think Defence hasn’t published my comment which sought to provide a different point of view to the bias it had in its 14th February article. It was the editor wrote that story and he’s published an article today, so clearly doesn’t want to provide balance when it comes to Scottish matters. Shame, it used to be a good journal, and a good resource.

    Better article yesterday from him, but unbalanced comments below the line.

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-investment-clyde-shipyards-not-high-hoped/

    I’ll wait to see if my comment on the original one appears at last, then try posting it again. Integrity is such a rare quality these days it seems.

  298. yesindyref2 says:

    To follow up my posting above, ooops, I completely screwed that up – it was UK Defence Journal I was posting to not Think Defence, apologies to both for mixing them up. Comment did appear.



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