The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

An auld familiar song

Posted on February 20, 2017 by

The Scottish media has today leapt all over the front-page lead story from yesterday’s Sunday Times, in which “top economist” Douglas McWilliams of right-wing thinktank the Centre for Economics and Business Research made an apocalyptic prediction of a huge deficit turning an independent Scotland into “a Third World country”.

The Express’ customarily restrained coverage is pretty typical.


We wondered if Mr McWilliams used to have a more optimistic view.

As it turned out, not so much.


It would seem that he’s been saying the exact same thing, using the same hyperbolic language, regularly for at least the last 16 years.



(The good news is that his estimate of Scotland’s return to the Stone Age appears to have been moved back again – in 2011 he was predicting it’d happen by 2030, but now it seems it won’t be until 2047. We just gained 17 years of prosperity! Yay!)

The BBC’s Douglas Fraser was pretty scathing about McWilliams’ credentials the last time he trotted out his doom-and-gloom forecasts:


We can’t think what would make McWilliams’ judgement so questionable.




And the really odd thing about that 2011 Telegraph piece predicting catastrophic doom for Scotland within less than two decades? It doesn’t mention independence once.

Always look for the context, readers.

Print Friendly

    340 to “An auld familiar song”

    1. One_Scot says:

      I don’t KNOW if it is JUST me or does ANYONE else find the FAKE NEWS Express headlines JUST a bit IRRITATING.

    2. starlaw says:

      Where are we heading if we remain in this union. Perhaps some one can tell me facts, not pie in the sky

    3. Malky says:

      “…and himself a Scot.” Well, I say define “Scot”.

    4. Ken500 says:

      The Press is doomed. In five years there won’t be any left. Why do they bother printing this nonsense? Leading to the demise of their own industry.

    5. louis.b.argyll says:

      Disgusting scaremongering from the predictable Tory press.

    6. louis.b.argyll says:

      Newspaper headlines are a smokescreen, deliberately negative.

      They should be turned over, like porn/lads mags, to lessen their shock value to innocent passers-by.

    7. Ken500 says:

      Right wing supporting Gov cuts. Supports UK income tax cuts. Lack of funding for essential services. Vicky Pryce? The penalties points evaded. Lining their pockets on people’s misery. Right wing Gov lobbyists for the nearest bidder.

    8. Sharny Dubs says:

      Oh! and having the largest oilfields in Europe is such a drain on our resources …. wait!!!…..

    9. TheItalianJob says:

      Utter drivel from two newspapers I would never buy. In fact haven’t bought a regular newspaper for nigh on 10 years.

      It’s going to be a challenge for the next Yes campaign to counter such drivel as we get on a daily and weekly basis from the Unionist press.

      We have to be strong and resilient in the next year or so and keep counteracting thes false claims.

      Stu’s Wings is a good reference point as we all know.

    10. louis.b.argyll says:

      All Trump/May need now, to complete the right wing global coup, is a sprinkling of MacCarthyism, to cut these meddling leftist truth seekers out of the media.. And remove all foreigners from the world.

    11. Clootie says:


      Too small, too poor and too stupid…..we heard you the first 100 times.

      Now apply common sense to this debate (I won’t use Norway). Look at Iceland, Sweded, Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, etc, etc who DO NOT have the resources of Scotland in Oil reserves/Fish stock/ Renewable energy and so on, then try to stop yourself from bursting out laughing at such an idiotic report(propaganda piece).

      I loved the add on “….and himself a Scot”. Yes a Scot like Gove, Fox, Marr, Neil, Forsyth, Mundell etc
      A successful Scotland with a fair society on their doorstep could undermine the Rich get Richer trickle down theory and Austerity is good for the Nation approach.

      Quite a surprise though for a Right Wing Think Tank to come to this finding and it obviously has some merit when it is given such a high profile in so many Unionist media outlets… 🙂

    12. heedtracker says:

      “Himself a Scot,” is funny. I am the biggest arse in town, but I am myself a Scot. UK hackdom is a sight to behold.

      The Grauniad Scotland, goes massive this morn with, a letter from someone who liked their thing on Joan Eardly.

      Thank you for the generous appreciation of Joan Eardley’s work by Frances Spalding (Review, 11 February). I was captivated by Eardley’s portraits and landscapes when I was a teenager in the mid-1950s.

    13. Macart says:

      Yes. Yes it is a familiar song right enough.

      They’ve looked out the window recently, right?

      They are aware of the state of the UK economy, its politics, debt and devalued currency? Not to mention its performance on the world markets, brexit and the fiscal reset, austerity, the ever widening rich – poor gap? That sort of thing.

      The Scottish government is responsible for exactly NONE of that. They don’t have any say in any way of the economic policy of the UK.

      So if Scotland is a basket case, then I’d be looking to sack the catastrophically inept boneheads who were responsible for that economic performance. There may also be some harsh language involved for the miscreants during the dismissal process (cough).

    14. If these unionists really believe the rubbish they are spouting about the Scottish economy.

      Then by very their own admission,they are admitting the union has not been good for Scotland, and that they and Westminster have turned Scotland into economic basket case.

    15. David Smith says:

      So, it looks like we’re back to; “YOU’RE NOTHING WITHOUT ME. NOTHING!”…

      Wake me up when they’ve finished.

    16. heedtracker says:

      Graun explaining why London probably wont be a third world city,

      More than half UK investment in transport is in London, says study
      Thinktank IPPR North warns gulf in investment between regions is at cost of greater northern productivity

    17. is that the same Douglas McWilliams from the Centre for Economics and Business Research that assaulted a sex worker for refusing to smoke crack cocaine with him?

    18. Tam Jardine says:

      Douglas McWilliams @DMcWilliams_UK…. A new take on Edinburgh ‘the Athens of the North’!
      12.34 am – 19 Feb 2017
      Douglas McWilliams@DMcWilliams_UK

      Edinburgh the Athens of the North?…
      12:00 am – 20 Feb 2017

      It seems McWilliams analysis is very fluid indeed. In the space of 24 hours a question mark is added. Such is the nature of life. One does have to question if economic forecasting has value if it changes by the hour.

    19. Sinky says:

      Yoon called Allan Sutherland (?) who sounds just Scott Arthur turning GMS Call Kaye debate on news sources into rant against SNP including nonsence that Question Time had only one pro unionpanellist

    20. heedtracker says:

      By UK, that Graun thing ofcourse means England,

      Nazia Parveen North of England correspondent
      Monday 20 February 2017 00.01 GMT
      More than half of the UK’s total spending on transport networks is invested in London, research has found, prompting warnings of “chronic underinvestment” in northern infrastructure projects.

      The gulf in transport infrastructure investment between London and the rest of England is set to get worse, according to the analysis by the thinktank IPPR North, with £1,943 being spent per person in London on current or planned projects compared with just £427 in the north.”

      Its not an intentional error either, future third world Scotland region of greater England.

    21. louis.b.argyll says:

      North Sea in crisis?

      That’ll be due to UK management of OIL AND FISHING.

      About half of total oil reserves remain. And using old technology at current prices it’s less profitable, but profit isn’t where the gov takes it’s cut.

    22. Proud Cybernat says:

      So, according to this quackademic, we were heading for economic disaster [stop sniggering at the back] long before independence was even the remotest of remote possibilities i.e. we were heading for disaster as part of the Union. Now the quackademic tells us we’re heading for disaster if we’re independent.

      Must be the curse of the Scots, eh? Damned if you’e in, damned if you’re out.

      I’ll take my chances – Nicola, push the button.

    23. BJ says:

      Mundell says he’s a Scot.

      Means nothing really but if it’s true he’s definitely gone rogue and taking money under false pretences as the SoS for Scotland.

    24. David says:

      Gonna get a lot of stick from a lot of the clueless regulars here but although im totally for independence its only dreamy eyed people unburdened with the weight of any facts that would think that if Scotland became independent there wouldnt be a need for some change to policies when it comes to welfare and other public spending.

      Yeah I know, pointing out that money cant be grown on tree’s and that having generations of people living on benefit isnt a good thing makes me a fascist and a fake indy supporter etc etc.

      Just thought id mention it though.

    25. Clootie says:

      Public spending threat to the economy of an Independent Scotland.

      Within the UK Union the state pension, as a percentage of income on retirement, is just ahead of Latvia and below Lithuania- why risk such rewards being “lost”

      They really do think we are stupid!

    26. Robert Dark says:


    27. dandy dons 1903 says:

      Doesnt this yoon bampot have a history of drug abuse? Certainly this guys impaired when it comes to figures and telling the truth.

    28. galamcennalath says:

      It seems ‘think tanks’ very rarely do much thinking!

      Most appear to be propaganda outlets set up and paid for by a particular individual or group. That piper then calls the tune.

      The media use think tanks and their ‘experts’ as if they were politically independent sources. And it get’s worse when the media entity itself is just a propaganda tool and they do a double act!

      The REAL problem is that many ordinary folks can’t see through the subterfuge and listen to the supposed ‘wise man’ when, truth is, he is just some arsehole.

    29. Andy Anderson says:

      Heard it all before. We have the info to fight this on the door step which was not always the case in 2014.
      To me the increase in extreme lies has gone up a lot in the last two months much of it from politicians on TV. What an embarrassment they are to themselves. Their families must be proud of them.
      Keep a calm head, curse quietly and move on.

    30. Jamur says:

      Tell us when Nicola. We are ready.

    31. Auld Rock says:

      Ellesmere port no more, Luton no more, BMW no more, Toyata no more, Nissan no more, Rolls Royce no more…………and on, and on. No friends I think that it will be England that will be 3rd world country, their hospitals and prisons are halfway there.

      Auld Rock

    32. defo says:

      “Nothing’s changed
      I still love you, oh, I still love you
      …Only slightly, only slightly less than I used to, my love”

      Especially if you pay me to write guff so as I can feed my habit.

      Lots of peeps seem to be addicted to lying.

    33. Yerkitbreeks says:

      Down here in the Borders we have sheep, collie dogs and landowners. The landowners call the shots, the dogs do the directing and the sheep obey. Proxies for Scottish society.

      Sadly these articles are the collies.

    34. Chitterinlicht says:

      We are doomed i say, doomed. 🙂

    35. Training Day says:

      We would do well not to lightly dismiss the opinion of this crackhead.

    36. Ken500 says:

      Is this a joke? Speak about fake News. Respected? CEBR more like a bunch of criiminals. No doubt funded by public money. Respected? Sharing drugs, beating and abusing people. Criminal activities. For goodness sake.

    37. Proud Cybernat says:

      Take Back Control…

    38. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Tokyo Kay and her phone-in this morning discussing “Fake News” and who do you trust, goes on to tell us that the Herald Poll last week in which she says 36% don’t trust BBC Scotland, she then tells listeners that it obviously must mean 64% TRUST BBC Scotland.

      That is of course complete Fake News.

      From the Herald: “The BBC tends to report news that is biased against the cause for Scottish independence”

      “Overall, some 36% agreed with the statement, compared with just 23% who disagreed (41% said they neither agreed, nor disagreed).”

      Only 23% trust the BBC NOT 64% as Adams told the world this morning.

      Kaye Adams tells lies, all the time!!!

    39. mogabee says:


      “tree’s” what?

      Yours clueless reader

    40. mogabee says:

      So a guy with a drug and sex habit is being punted to make a statement about Scotland which is still under Westminsters financial control.

      Who is protecting this numpty?

      Laugh? Seriously, is this all they can get? 🙂 🙂 🙂

    41. yesindyref2 says:

      I posted something about the rubbish “CEBR” spout on the previous thread, here it is:

      From the CEBR lying propaganda report Sep 8th 2014, 10 days before the referendum:

      “First, Scotland’s share of UK public spending now appears to have been 9.6% in 2012/13 according to new data released by the ONS at the end of July in Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses, whereas its share of the UK’s on-shore economy was only 8.0%. Assuming taxes roughly proportional to shares of GVA, this would imply a non oil deficit of 1.6% of UK GVA, which may not seem much but amounts to 20.6% of Scottish on shore GVA.”

      From GERS 2012/13 on the other hand we have this:

      “In 2012-13, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £47.6 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue).
      … This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.
      … In 2012-13, Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £17.6 billion (14.0% of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue”

      So their “appears to have been 9.6%” was actually much less at 9.3%, and their “only 8.0%” was actually more at 8.2% (our population was around 8.4% of the UK’s), resulting in their estimate (albeit GVA not GDP) of “20.6% ” was in reality 14.0%.

      I hereby cry it the Centre for Exaggeration and Bullshit Reports.

    42. HandandShrimp says:

      Right wing Tory predicts doom, destruction and disaster if right wing Tory policies are not implemented – Shock Horror!

      I think he needs to lay off the crack pipe.

      Can you imagine the write up the Express would give a pro independence economist if they had this chap’s back story?

      However, the Express was doing Fake News long before Trump discovered it was an issue.

    43. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for the article, I didn’t realise the CEBR had such a long and unillustrious record.

    44. Bob MACK says:

      We do indeed have the potential to be a third rate nation. If we remain in the Union that is. I would go even further and state it is a certainty.

      Groundhog day headlines.

    45. CapnAndy. says:

      Well, there is an element of truth in that we may well become a third world country by 2030.
      But. Only if we stay in the Union. Westminster is broke, skint, on it’s uppers. The national debt is over a trillion, but what assets does UK have left, absolutely bugger all. The Union cannot now even go to the pawn shop as they’ve bugger all left to pawn, nothing left to sell. May is now at the stage of going cap in hand to the likes of Trump and Erdogan for business.
      It doesn’t look good for the UK and now is the right time to take to the lifeboats and leave the sinking ship.

    46. Dr Jim says:

      The power to run Scotlands economy has never been in Scotland
      it’s been in the UK who have borrowed lots and lots of money put themselves in lots and lots of debt then assigned that debt to the devolved Nations as a percentage of population whether any money was spent there or not and then says Scotland has debt which they the UK created on Scotlands behalf…

      So Scotland says we’ll do it ourself thanks you lot are pretty hopeless at this and the UK says No No No you’re in debt so you can’t afford to and without us (the UK) you’ll be worse, say the UK economists who got us in debt by borrowing the money we didn’t ask for and don’t even know what it was spent on

      When the UK decides to spend billions on “Infrastructure” projects in England which they say will benefit Scotland and then charge Scotland for a percentage of that, they don’t ask us they tell us and even if we don’t like it it’s fingers in ears and La La La time

      I’ve paid for Nuclear bombs in my back garden that the UK says benefit me, nobody asked me and when I complained they said sit down and shut up you horrible little Jock nobody the UKs in charge

      Translated that means England is in charge of my money my life my house and my back garden and I don’t get a say, and yet…An Englishmans house is his castle.. and a Scotsmans house is an Englishmans castle too

      Anyone who thinks Scotland should’nt look after it’s own wages and house and garden is either brain damaged or are Bastirt thieves

      The brain damaged folk are forgiven, the rest, not so much!
      and I mean that in a bad way!

      Of course we know they’re lying and they know we know they’re lying, so how many people they fooled last time are going to be fooled again, and how many Bastirts remain loyal to their English overlords like little vampire familiars one day hoping to be a vampire too

    47. Socrates MacSporran says:


      I hope you will accept this small note of censure in the trying-to-be-helpful spirit in which I post it, but:

      As a callow young journalist, I was always taught, when using an acronym for the first time, always write its title out in full, so the layman reader knows what you are speaking about.

      You provide some excellent insights when you post on here, but, I haven’t a clue what such acronyms as GVA or ONS mean. GDP I think is Gross Domestic Production, I ought to know what GERS means, but, at least I understand what it is.

      A wee-bit of explanation would help calrify your terrific input on here.

    48. Tam the Bam. says:

      @David 9.55am

      Troll found….these people seem oblivious to the fact that they ‘out’ themselves by always inserting the prefix…’although I’m totally in favour of independence’.Aye right and I’m Napoleon.

    49. Scott says:

      We have had this all before about Scotland my question to anyone is how would EWNR look it’s all about England and they would lose out big time as they would not be at the top table and maybe their economy would suffer.
      Lets have some neutral Economic person do a study on how the rest would look like without Scotland

    50. Mike says:

      Can you imagine how the UK media would portray an economic advisor to Nicola Sturgeon who had been caught smoking crack and beating up prostitutes?
      Can you imagine how they would treat any forecasts he presented that showed an Indy Scotland flourishing and surpassing itself in relative terms to remaining in the Union?
      Can you imagine them not linking his drug addiction and known political affiliations and desires?
      And yet here we are with the media completely ignoring both his self destructive nature and his clear blue stated belief in the Union and absolute opposition to Scottish Independence to present this creature as not only credible but untainted impartial and prominent.
      This level of blanket State media corruption can ONLY be found in despotic States.

    51. heedtracker says:

      This isn’t funny any more. Daily Heil,

      PUBLISHED: 13:11, 19 January 2015 | UPDATED: 17:29, 19 January 2015

      This is the bruised face of a prostitute who claims that she was assaulted by a leading economist after the pair smoked crack together.

      Professor Douglas McWilliams, executive chairman of influential City think-tank the Centre for Economic and Business Research, allegedly attacked Beverly Shearon at her flat in St Albans, Hertfordshire.

      Ms Shearon reportedly called police after she was left with a black eye and an injury to her hand, claiming McWilliams had ‘flipped out’ when a neighbour arrived at the one-bedroom flat.
      In the first image of the 47-year-old’s injuries dark bruising to her right eye is clearly visible.

    52. Black Joan says:

      We need to declare a new “Think Tank” through which the Rev’s superbly efficient and unequalled research can be issued to the MSM.

      We need a good name for it, and a “Board” of impeccable repute (no crack addicts). Some recent NO to YES converts should be included.

      Nah, the MSM will cry, can’t use that because the source is in favour of Scottish Independence, and we’re only interested in impartial, independent sources which are, er, hostile to independence.

      Seriously — surely Wings IS a “much respected Think Tank”. The Rev’s research is impeccable and fully referenced and his predictions have an excellent success rate.

      The quality of, and respect for, the WoS Think Tank’s work is demonstrated by enormous readership numbers and crowd-funding success, but the MSM scream Vile Cybernat and choose instead to bow down in respect before some arsehole and any old crack addict with a lamentable prediction record and 800 followers on Twitter.

    53. Bob MACK says:

      Can anybody advise me of the last Chancellor in Westminster who in spite of all the think tanks and economic advisors input, did not make a complete arse of the country’s finances. None of them, not one ,met their much vaunted targets.
      Labour left notes to the effect the till was empty and Osborne never met any of his targets in spite of mountains of advisors.

      Meanwhile Mr Swinney was doing his job and more. Mr McKay seems just as efficient.

      The whole thing is a joke.

    54. Swiss Perspective says:

      Well, if Scotland continues to believe this kind of drivel from a crack-smoking junkie, then maybe it really is too stupid. That and having the likes of Dugdale as the erstwhile leader of the opposition.
      Thanks for the excellent background research!

    55. Chick McGregor says:

      Perhaps the crack expert might turn his expertise on an appraisal of England’s ‘Golden Egg’, as it was referred to the other day on R4, namely London’s Financial Sector.

      Indeed, that R4 programme might be an excellent place to start since it seems at least micro-cracks (blame it on the BREXIT) are already visible even to the London-centric ostritches.

    56. Fred says:

      Scotland has vast potential, as recognised by the Gupta family buying the Lochaber Smelter & planning a factory alongside for alloy-wheel production plus a Green-Steel plant also for oil-rig reclamation. It’s just that these arseholes live in a Union bubble!

    57. Andy Anderson says:

      Have a look at this. It is about the EU view on the current tactics by Westminster to divide and rule prior to post A50 talks starting. It was in the Guardian but my take is from MSN.

    58. Black Joan says:

      The Rev advises readers always to “look for the context”, and the same applies to the cavalier use of academic titles.

      McWilliams is described in some reports as “Professor” but this relates not to a Chair at a University but to a position extended to him between 2012 and 2014 by a City of London institution called Gresham College.

      The WoS Highly Respected Think Tank already has a Reverend as its Principal. The Advisory Board (as soon as it is constituted) should immediately consider establishing a lecture series and those invited to deliver lectures should henceforth be known as Professors (and in some cases Reverend Professors).

    59. Golfnut says:

      Not so ‘ top economist ‘ then, just so I’m clear on this,a crack head advises a coke head on the economy, the policy meetings must have been a hoot. Did they wear ladies underwear? silly question I know.

    60. Breeks says:

      David @ 9:55

      I’m clueless David. See I thought when the Tories privatised BT, British Gas, British Airways, British Aerospace, British Leyland, British Rail, British Steel, British Coal, shipbuilding, water supply in England, the Power Companies, Airports, Prisons, Post Office, …and all the rest of UK assets which we the people owned, I thought that was because the Country couldn’t afford to keep subsidising all these inefficient, loss making industries which were such a burden upon the country.

      So the country has now shed itself of this alleged burden, sold off these assets which belonged to you and me, sold off all the Council Houses, thus saving a bundle and collecting some pretty hefty windfalls…. and yet somehow the Country is not better off, but deeper in debt than its entire history.

      Simple question… Where has all the money gone? Hands up, I’m clueless about that. We are now a “nation” of home owners, who now throw hundreds of pounds every week which once upon a time lubricated local commerce, into the coffers of an absentee mortgage company or corporate supermarket which was so criminally inept it needs bailed out by the tax payer…err… me??? Or needs tax credits to pay its staff a minimum wage.

      I am left confused how Scotland can have 96% of the UK’s oil, and yet see no benefit from it. Norway has Statoil. Scotland has Feckoil. I am confused why Scotland is at the cutting edge of Renewables Technologies on the doorstep of Europe which needs ever more energy, yet the UK government handicaps Scottish renewables yet finds funding for Nuclear and Fracking because George Osborne had a pal in Fracking. I am confused why exports of Scotch Whisky count as English exports because they leave the U.K. from English terminals.

      I am confused, and I might add deeply mistrustful of all the subterfuge, misrepresentation and distortion of the truth we suffer by our “wonderful” BBC. Funny how they never privatised that eh? But why, in a Union of equal nations, is it necessary to spike and manipulate my intake of Scottish news? Is the truth so very damning? Well if the truth is the McCrone Report, then obviously yes it is.

      So in this contrived dogs breakfast of sophistry, I break it down into basics. We have a population of around 5.3 million people; we have world reknowned food and drink products, we have beautiful scenery, waters and reputation for tourism, we have recovering fish stocks, we have our oil industry, we have our renewables industry, we have a government committed to reindustialing our economy, and capacity for growth in our renewables industry which is potentially limitless and permanent. We are more than self sufficient in food production, water, and energy, and we have a diverse and solid footprint in a dynamic mix of economic activities across banking and financial services through to construction and farming. I reckon with bright industrious people, and friends in Europe, we’re going to be just fine. In fact, we’ll be a lot better than fine.

      If anything, the scourge of this Union has seen Scotland grossly underdeveloped, and with more prudent management, (that needs only to be an improvement on Labour’s PFI disaster to register as a success), once established, the nation of Scotland can busy itself upgrading our infrastructure and ports to a more fitting capacity for a Nation as member of the EU.

      If, as a committed nation of 5.3million people boasting such bountiful resources we cannot find a way to live within our means, then there really is no hope for us. Of course we can do it. However, there really is no hope for us if we stand back and let Westminster continue to plunder our Natural resources yet refuse to facilitate the appropriate support for our people and industries who are simply regarded as a meal ticket for those privileged to live in the South.

      I am now deaf to the economic arguments that an Independent Scotland would fail simply because Westminster cannot make Scotland pay its way. Prior to the discovery of oil in the 70’s, Scotland did pay its way, and was routinely in surplus. Scotland’s handicap not any endemic weakness or strategic failure, it is the burden of decades of dysfunctional Westminster government, prejudice and profligacy.

      Better the devil you know? Hmmm. Know what? I think I’ll take my chances with Scottish Sovereignty in Europe.

      Yes, you are correct, that as a Nation with a growing population of elderly, there will be an increased burden upon workers to pay for the upkeep of services, but compare the way the UK has geared up for this eventuality with the way the Norwegians have.

      Right now, the Norwegians make more money from the interest on their Oil fund than they make from the oil. The Norwegians didn’t, / don’t squander their natural resources for cheap gains and windfalls for investors, they take the long term view and prepare prudently for their collective future.

      I am sick and tired being lectured on Scotland’s economic frailty by a profligate UK government awash with lucrative resources which it has for decades been pissing up against the wall trying to make the rich minority even richer and the privileged lives more privileged. Your industry doesn’t get better when you plunder its resources, your industry improves when you invest in it.

      Our elderly have invested in Scotland their entire working lives. We aught to be thanking them, learning from them, not demeaning them as a nuisance and a burden we’d fare much better without.

    61. Robert Graham says:

      Eh seem to remember this line before , you would have thought after all this time and having all the media spouting the same outdated mantra the Independence movement would have long since buckled and dispersed , OOPS it hasn’t happend , OH dear thats unfortunate isnt it , not much Ammo left now eh Chaps , it is going to happen and the Union supporters know it thats why we are getting the latest wave of hysterical guff .

    62. heedtracker says:

      Chick McGregor, BBC r4 vote tory campers much too busy trying to get Eddie Hitler elected in Stoke, this week. They’ll be back to destroy Scottish democracy asap though,

      BBC Politics

      O’Flynn: I am ‘quietly confident in Stoke’
      UKIP MEP Patrick O’Flynn said that his party’s campaign in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election is the “best organised campaign we’ve ever run” and the party is “in with a real chance” of winning the seat.

      The MEP for the East of England told the Westminster Hour that if UKIP’s candidate and party leader Paul Nuttall did win the seat, then it would be a “massive step forward” having their leader in the House of Commons. However, if Mr Nuttall didn’t succeed, then Mr O’Flynn said he didn’t see it as “the game’s up”.

      Release date: 20 February 2017
      47 seconds

    63. shiregirl says:

      Jeez. Would appear McWilliams is still on the ‘pipe coming out with guff like that (the Scotsman called him David. Can’t even get the name right…) What a charmer.

      The Express is FULL of it’s USUAL HATRED, SPURIOUS headlines and VITRIOL towards Indy. And WHY do they put CAPITAL LETTERS in some of their headlines – just why?

    64. K1 says:

      McWilliams just made enough for his next fix wi this repeated pile of rancid pish…when you note his connection and collaboration wi Osborne as his senior advisor it all falls into place…working together in perfect harmony.

    65. Clootie says:

      Who protects the London financial market?

      I cannot think of “business” easier to move than the gambling estates of London. Most nations have the skill and UK tax has no distinct advantage. It must therefore be a hidden drive that draws money in and wards of competition…..what is hiding in the darkness….just a thought

      The spin is they make money from money. The reality is they and the other major centres are the tip of the hose syphoning money from “the rest of humanity” – In many ways it is a money laundering process.

      Is this the best civilisation can achieve after so long. The strong still prey on the weak?

    66. call me dave says:


      Excellent! Summed it all up there right enough. 🙂

      Earlier on in the car on radio shortbread.

      A caller says “But I get all my news from Kaye”

    67. liz says:

      @heedtracker – this has been talked about for years, the north,south divide especially in infrastructure.

      The media divert attention by trying to get England to blame us because of the ‘Barnett formula’.

      You get arrogant arses saying the UK couldn’t survive w/o the ‘powerhouse’of the City.
      Where in fact the opposite is true,

      The City is a voracious black hole, sucking in all the resources and in the meantime destroying the UK economy with their casino banking and offshore accountancy.

      People in the UK need to waken up and see that all of us are being taken for mugs.

    68. Black Joan says:

      Breeks! That’s the troll telt. Thank you, thank you!

    69. Iain Patterson says:

      Third World indeed. We could end up being a small northern european country like….Denmark.
      Anybody been to Copenhagen recently?
      It’s So expensive.
      The people are so poor they’re riding around the city on bikes.

    70. Gail Hughes says:

      He loses credibility once he gets on about Scotland’s “addiction to public spending”. Scotland’s public spending, as a proportion of GDP, is lower than the the average for the 28 EU countries (EU-28). That’s the average of the whole lot including the former Soviet Bloc countries of Eastern Europe and the supposed “failing economies” of Southern Europe. Compared to other Northern European economies we are well behind. Are the likes of Belgium, Finland, The Netherlands, Denmark and so on “Third World economies”?

      It is not Scotland’s levels of public spending that are too high, it is the UK’s levels of public spending and revenue that are too low. Even the tories themselves are realising it now with statements about needing to improve funding on health and other matters. It is the low-tax, low-spend supply-side economics of this bloke and his think-tank that is taking the country to a failing economy. Independence is the means of escape.

    71. heedtracker says:

      From crack with prozzies, tae coke with them too. Banchory’s never seem the place since this tory nutcase. More tea vicar?

    72. JaceF says:

      If Scotland’s economy is so bad we must be dragging the rest of the UK down, just imagine how much their economy will soar if we are gone.

    73. Macart says:

      I see from the Rev’s twitter feed that Mr Daisley is making our case for us again in the Daily Heil.

      “You know, the one where the justices reminded her that Westminster makes the big people decisions and Holyrood is there to decide the Gaelic for ‘Glasgow Queen Street, Low Level’.”

      Next time some, buttoned up the back better together type waxes lyrical on partneship, lead with us, family of nations, equality, respect agenda bull shittery. I am going to quote the SC, Lord Keen and Mr Daisley to their face.

      Ask them to explain their definition of equal partners kinda thing.

      Are we clear yet on how the union works, or do we require some more ritual abuse from these serial fibbers?

    74. HandandShrimp says:


      Like Fluffy, I generally find Daisley and Torrance more a help to the cause than a hindrance. The notion that we would want to shut them up is ridiculous. Mock them certainly but silence them? No, not all.

    75. heedtracker says:

      liz says:
      20 February, 2017 at 11:52 am
      @heedtracker – this has been talked about for years, the north,south divide especially in infrastructure.

      It is one of the big mysteries why Scots have been happy to watch England pump hundreds of billions into their transport infrastructure since the 60’s and yet Scotland’s been completely left out.

      Ofocurse its changing but its still one of UKOK life culture shocks, if you’re Scots, driving into England from Scotland, suddenly you’re in a different world of swish new dual carriages everywhere, hooking into giant motorways all zooming off to the greatest city in the New British Empire.

      Even if the teamGB SLab freak show under crash Gordon had at least invested in the Glasgow/Edinburgh infrastructure network back in the 90’s, but not an fing chance from that crew. T’was then as it is now, London and England all the UKOK way, amen.

    76. Muscleguy says:

      If there is no work or your skill set is lacking and there is no funding for training courses worth shit are you still not entitled to enough support for a life even half worth living with a warm dry abode to safely live in?

      The SNP will not be able to magic up enough jobs worth doing for everyone who is unemployed the day after Independence or set up and fund the kind of return to work support people need overnight.

      Then there’s the sick and the disabled. They have been demonised and their support taken away in a stain against our claim to be a civilised nation.

      Meanwhile the huge majority of welfare spending goes on pensions. Just as the Baby Boomers are retiring everyone else’s claim on the welfare purse must be scrutinised and penny pinched but their money cannot be touched. It’s no accident, the timing.

      Carrots and help are much better than sticks in getting folk back to work.

      And finally in a world which is automating and roboticising work faster and faster there will likely be fewer and fewer jobs out there other than robot technician and that one too is open to automation then what? If we paid everyone over 18 a citizen’s wage sufficient to keep life and limb together paid for from the profits of the companies who keep automating (tax their turnover not profit to capture it) solves the unemployment problem.

      If you raise the income tax allowance to just over the citizen’s wage then there is an incentive to work, you keep the money (minus tax) and lose nothing. The employed also do not envy the lazy.

      People can seek employment to say fund a holiday. So employers will have to work to persuade people with money and other perks and a good work environment to work for them and stay. Bosses’ power to threaten people with the dole if they are fired would lose its sting. Deliveroo would have to actually pay people properly with sick pay and pensions to get ANYONE to work for them. Mind you if Amazon’s drone deliveries and Uber’s driverless cars come along the gig economy will go too.

    77. defo says:

      shiregirl says:

      “The Express is FULL of it’s USUAL HATRED, SPURIOUS headlines and VITRIOL towards Indy. And WHY do they put CAPITAL LETTERS in some of their headlines – just why?”

      The target demographic are short sighted ? 🙂

    78. David says:

      As I said. This website has a decent proportional share of idiots.

      I totally agree with Scotlands long term economic outlook. I agree that we have an abundance of resources. I agree that the current financial mess can be laid at the feet of Westminster.

      But, isnt it funny that as soon as anyone gives a line that’s not totally ‘sun shining, welfare checks forever’ they are deemed some sort of troll?

      A lot of you are the mirror image of die-hard unionists.

      So for the morons and those who think with emotions (same thing):

      No matter what happens when Scotland gets its independence its highly likely to cause uncertainty with business. How long that uncertainty lasts is down to our government and how things are going south of the border. Do we believe that Scotland would do well in the short term with a tax policy that WASNT kind to business?

      There are many possible scenarios but an immediate spike in Scotlands outlook and fiscal situation is not very likely. At all. It will take time and probably a more immediate, though temporary, reversal in the current situation.

      This is a realistic view.

      Some of you regulars might just have to get a job. Imagine that? :D. Ok that WAS a trollish comment. But you f**kwits deserve it for your reactionary s**te.

      There are other views in the Scottish independence debate other than that of the economically illiterate socialists.

    79. galamcennalath says:

      Breaks says

      Scotland’s handicap not any endemic weakness or strategic failure, it is the burden of decades of dysfunctional Westminster government

      I look around and see the wealth of resources, both natural and human, and wonder why Scotland isn’t currently Europe’s boomtown.

      I can also only draw one conclusion … “decades of dysfunctional Westminster government”.

      What other possible reason can there be? Any suggestions, trolls?

      Those bloody right wing think tanks like to spout about how crap Scotland would be in the future using the crap performance of the present system as their model!

    80. The “City of London” economic powerhouse is a notion not a physical reality. It can move anywhere else very easily.
      And is already doing so.

      We should not get too heavily involved in arguing facts and figures on this latest scare attempt.To do so gives it oxygen and continued repeat.

      Concentrate on the huge resources of Scotland and what we could do with them if they were properly deployed in an independent Scotland.

    81. Proud Cybernat says:

      Seems appropriate…

    82. gordoz says:

      Douglas McWilliams from the Centre for Economics and Business Research, is a Tube !!

      That’s what sensible folk will take from Stu’s analysis – get it out there !!

    83. Mike says:


      Every knowledgeable Yoon in the UK knows and understands only too well the Scotland you’ve presented.
      The problem is not that they don’t know or understand, the problem is they are too corrupt to acknowledge the truth.
      They know every claim they make is false they themselves coin their propaganda “Project Fear”.
      Even the less knowledgeable have learned that every claim made prior to the Indyref as a result of a Yes vote has occurred directly as a result of a No vote and yet many of them don’t care.
      That’s the rub they don’t actually care what the truth is.
      Their only truth is the Union. That Britain is great a world power and a player on the world stage.
      They ignore all reality in order to feed off this delusion of self gratification in being a part of something greater than themselves.
      We’re up against a Rule Britannia mentality coupled with a corrupt State supporting media circus which feeds the largest voting block in Scotland with unchallenged “News”. The elderly. A voting block with very little access to online media who take ALL their information from the TV and printed media.
      SNP BAD Scotland too wee too poor too stupid. A daily unchallenged mantra for far too many of them.
      Perhaps if the National was distributed for free throughout care homes and retirement homes or posted to pensioners throughout Scotland a more balanced view can be achieved?
      But unless something of that nature occurs its not going to be enough to have truth on our side when perception is on theirs.

    84. Footsoldier says:

      BBC Scotland website political section has a feature on what to expect from party conferences.

      It goes on to to explain that each party will have someone who dresses from head to toe in party colours or something outlandish.

      Naturally being BBC Scotland they do not think at all and choose as an example, a single picture of someone at an SNP conference who is straight out of Brigadoon.

      The BBC simply do no get what all the complaints of bias are about or they simply no longer care. It’s this type of action that brings the BBC into disrepute. Knowing that they have to be careful, show “nutters” from all the parties or show none. Plenty of pictures to choose from.

    85. K1 says:

      Well said Breeks, an eloquent and beautifully expressed synopsis of the true state of affairs re Scotland’s economic bounty and the systematic destruction of our economy by successive UK governments over the past 40 years.

      But this: ‘Our elderly have invested in Scotland their entire working lives. We aught to be thanking them, learning from them, not demeaning them as a nuisance and a burden we’d fare much better without.’ This needs hammered home repeatedly.

      This attitude toward our elders as a burden and a drain is one of the most toxic, insidious and destructive pieces of proganda that has seeped into and taken root in the public consciousness. It had been deliberately deployed as a means to divide and create rancour between the generations, couched in ‘economic’ language it seems a plausible ‘criterion’ within the lexicon of economic analysis, but the insiuation of ‘burden and drain’ has always been the implicit message.

      It’s aim is to break down ‘respect’ and ‘trust’ within communities. Between the ‘generations’. In simple terms it’s ‘divide and conquer’.

    86. Clootie says:

      David @ 10:20

      …but we remain polite and present evidence based arguments such as EU member stats per GDP.
      A slightly more literate fiscal arguement than you presented.

    87. Capella says:

      “Professor” Douglas McWilliams may have been the one who advised George Osborne to include drug dealing and prostitution in UKs 2014 GDP figures. Gave them quite a boost. In The City of London that is.

      Tuesday’s update on the impact of the changes follows estimates last month from the ONS that in 2009 illegal drugs and prostitution boosted the economy by £9.7bn – equal to 0.7% of gross domestic product and roughly the same contribution as farming.

    88. heedtracker says:


      UK gov has taxed everything to the hilt, bar great wealth. Its not by chance.

    89. MJT says:

      @Ken500 The Press is doomed.

      Is it? I’m not sure about that. The Express Group is a subsidiary of Northern & Shell. Northern and Shell have somewhat recently bought and sold various TV Stations for healthy profits.

      The Daily Express, is a very small part of the Northern And Shell portfolio. Sales of ‘paper’ copies of newspapers is down, but that’s the times we live in. Most people get their news online…and for those who don’t, there’s paper copy.

      It’s not a bad thing for folks to check out the accounts of Northern and Shell to get an idea of how they’re doing financially.

      In the accounts for the year ended 31 December 2015 There was 246,490 (000) as profits from sale of subsidiary undertakings in the 2014 Column. I accept that profits for the following year were down to less than a million quid but net assets in 2015 were valued at over 122 million. No need to rummage doon the sofa just yet IMO.

      It, the Express and all the Unionist Newspapers serve their purpose. Propaganda plain and simple. Producing and maintaining narratives that serve the interests of Desmond, Murdoch, the Barclay Brothers and their ilk. You can read it in the Express, Times, Telegraph and they’ll talk about it on TV, and tweet about it and so it goes. It’s all about the narratives and setting the agenda.

      Everyone should read or have read Chomsky’s What Makes Mainstream Media Mainstream essay.

      The next due date for filing of accounts for Northern and Shell is September 2017.

    90. Bob MACK says:


      To use my Glaswegian venacular. Yer a fud.

    91. K1 says:

      welfare checks

      Not from around here David…eh?

    92. Brian Powell says:

      All this stuff from Daisley, Andrew Neil etc, it’s a test, an experiment, to find out how much shite they can pour on Scots of before there is some reaction.

      They found with Labour and the LibDems there is no limit, they accept open-mouthed, the Tories swim around in it, up to their chins, muttering, ‘Of course, you know, it’s not meant for us’.

    93. Clydebuilt says:

      O/t. Has anyone tried to get onto recently …..getting message 493 Forbidden…… Is this a case of Bateman and crew trying to gain cuddle from Yessers…..

    94. heedtracker says:

      BBC Politics lunchtime tv show, tory balance from their Scotland region, Lucy Poshgirl from the Times and Crichton Poshboy Torquil of the Daily Record, who has a new hairdo and thinks that the SNP are bad. That’s not fair, BBC Politics show only talking England, why Torquil’s on their showing talking England’s politics? who cares.

      Andrew Neil is unwell. Its Monday.

    95. Mike says:


      Most countries gained their Independence via conflict and war. They started off from the post effects of conflict and war. During far more global turbulent times than we experience today and yet not one of them has ever been told they would have been too wee too poor or too stupid to go it alone.
      Name ANY Independent country on the planet which would benefit more by giving up its Independence to Westminster.
      JUST ONE!
      When you cant then reflect on the level of utter pish you post. There is no economic level that Scotland would be subject to away from Westminster that can compare to the level MOST countries in the world started off with prior to their own Independence.
      So enough of your gibbering trolling pish. You don’t have an argument and you know it.
      There is no argument possible which can credibly paint Devolution as more beneficial than full Independence because to do so would be to argue that less is more and more is less while simultaneously arguing that more devolution is better than less Devolution.
      That’s your case for the union right there. Any level of Devolution is better than ultimate Devolution.
      That’s how fucking stupid and moronic it truly is.

    96. Macart says:


      He’s a precious resource is Mr Daisley. 🙂

      The longer he can be kept as a quotable source for the unionist argument, the better.

    97. Dorothy Devine says:

      Scotland will be a brilliant independent country , milk and honeyed from top to toe. Outlandishly wealthy and everyone will smile and dance in the streets.

      Those words have NEVER been promoted on this site or any other concerned with independence – most have a realistic outlook involving hard work and willing workers looking to a better future for the children and grandchildren of Scotland regardless of creed or colour.

    98. Macart says:

      Remember folks. You don’t like what someone has to say, or you don’t like the way they say it, just walk on by.

      Life’s too short and these threads too important.

    99. Artyhetty says:

      Wow how long has this guy been spouting the same old sh**e! Well, except that if the unionists were at the helm in Scotland, they would be taking Scotland down big style and not just talking Scotland down as they do incessantly.

      Just saw a thing on twitter saying Saudi’s bigly interested in north sea oil fields. Same ‘oil and gas’ organisation saying ‘Scotland’s decommissioning of oil rigs is 10 years behind what it should be. So, when london wants the oil revenues, gratis like, it is UKok oil, when the rigs are no good anymore, they are Scotland’s rigs.

      Scotland, you really are being taken for a mug, and it’s been going on for centuries.

      I mentioned before about Short historical films on Scotland. Now, Some I wanted to watch on oil, not available online. I saw a couple of films about oil, seemingly from the west of Scotland,way back, 1930s.

      One other only available as a clip of a longer film, called, ‘Hydro Power In Scotland’. 1964. The clip is of Thomas Johnston, Sec of state for Scotland. In less than a minute we are told that he had to come down very heavily on the britnat government to stop them from giving away Scotland’s water to private companies, forever and ever btw! ffs.

    100. heedtracker says:

      Oh Torquil was on BBC Politics to boost SLab conference this week, its going to be Daily Record Better Together jamboree, with The Vow 2.

    101. Colin MacLean says:

      I feel priveledgee that I come from the only country in the world that can’t govern itself!

      I am so lucky to have the benevolent English elite that is prepared to bail my country out because we can’t manage on our own!

      I fell so fortunate to have the free unbias press and bbc we get given!

      Lastly, even if I were poor, wee and stupid, I”d still wnat my independence!

      Why is that the English vote for Brexit they want their country back, yet Scots vote for independence and we are third world junkies?

    102. Daisy Walker says:

      I see from the Rev’s Twitter account the Crack Cocaine economy ‘expert’s’ organ is also against people being given public holidays. Dents productivity don’t you know.

      Well so does drugs misuse, see the quote below, from America.

      How big is America’s drug problem? BIG! And, this includes workplace employee drug abuse, too. The U.S. Government reports that, in the last month alone, 9.7 million Americans used marijuana and 1.9 million used cocaine!

      What every employer should know about employee drug abuse includes these three facts about illicit drugs:
      Just ‘one’ country – a country with only ‘five’ percent (5%) of the entire world’s population – buys and consumes fully sixty percent (60%) of the entire world’s supply of illicit drugs.

      That ‘one’ country is the United States.

      In the U.S., 77% of all illicit drug users are EMPLOYED either full or part-time!

      But, is employee drug abuse really a problem for small business owners as well as for Corporate America?
      Almost eight out of ten (77%) of Americans 18+ that use illicit drugs are employed full or part-time. That’s 9.4 MILLION workers involved in employee drug abuse! (How many of “those” employees work at YOUR company?)
      As a result of employee drug abuse, the vast majority of businesses – small and large – suffer from substantially decreased productivity and increased accidents (accidents both on and off the job- the latter, of course, affecting attendance, and work performance while ON the job). Employee drug abuse also dramatically increases medical claims and workers’ compensation payouts. These more frequent claims, in turn, directly cause increases in the premiums paid by the employer for medical and workers’ comp coverage. (In fact, in the case of “medical” premiums, even employees end up paying higher contributions out of their paycheck every month!)

      Additionally, employee drug abuse definitely leads to the abusers’ increased absenteeism and taking more than the average number of “sick days”- time off often paid for by their employer. While abusers are “buzzed” on the job, they are responsible for more product defects, missed deadlines, incomplete projects, or inaccurate work. To support their drug habit, abusers are responsible for higher than normal instances of employee theft- not just from their company, but from their fellow employees, too. They also can be counted on for more employee equipment loss, employee equipment damage, and other problems- including drug-dealing (again, to support their own drug habit)!

    103. Kupo says:

      I normally get angry at like this. However, this is lol funny and the way the express deftly, beautifully and gloriously articulates its title headline is just inspirational stuff.

      Anyhoo, back to the real world where you are, no one and I mean no one with a minimum dolphin or maybe chimp level brain( I guess the OO, loyalist, no surrender brigade are out of the running on that one) will believe a word of this.

      It’s all rather sad really that these so-called journalists would think this is the BOMB-news scoop of the week worth plastering on to inform the electorate that they’re going from a very highly developed country today to a shite one tomorrow maybe 5,10,20 weeks or 30 years or 50,000 years from now give or take.

    104. Artyhetty says:

      Apparently contradicting myself, re films about oil from the west coast, which are not available but it gives a description of contents in the film. Sorry O/T.

    105. orri says:

      The story consists of the fact that a projected future of Scotland’s economy based on current trends combined with the Polish economy improved means that sooner rather than later the two might pass.

      The important point, as others have already made, is that that future projection is made whilst Scotland is, for the most part, under the control of the UK.

      So it’s obvious that changes will have to be made. It’s also fucking obvious that the only way those changes will be made is via independence.

    106. heedtracker says:

      Some of you regulars might just have to get a job. Imagine that? :D. Ok that WAS a trollish comment. But you f**kwits deserve it for your reactionary s**te.”

      David, that is one of yoon cultures regular slams but I never get it.

      UK and English reign over Scotland has impoverished millions of Scots for generations, in a country that floats on oil and gas for example.

      So why not look to our new Holyrood and Scottish democracy to actually change what are clearly disastrous UKOK socio economics, if you are jobless?

      Its what its all about David. Its why the UK is over.

    107. Nana says:

      @Macart 12.43 Absolutely agree, scroll by those who seek to disrupt.

      O/T A couple of links re EU

      Article by Kirtshy Hughes and Tobias Lock

      Senior Fellow at Friends of Europe, Brussels and Senior Lecturer in European Union Law and Co-Director of the Edinburgh Europa Institute at the University of Edinburgh respectively.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      You’re correct, Scotland does have ingrained structural problems. Independence changes everything though, in terms of the Scottish government’s potential to follow policy focused on Scottish needs. For the first time ever, a Scottish government will be able to EMPLOY ALL OUR WEALTH AND NATURAL RESOURCES, developing Scottish culture for Scottish benefit.

      As you might expect, trying to gauge what tomorrow will bring requires insight, imagination and vision. The below is written from an American but it’s the principles that matter.

      The Causes of Poverty
      Cultural vs. Structural:
      Can There Be a Synthesis?

      There are many competing theories about the causes of poverty in the United States with mountains of empirical evidence to justify support for each. The debate among theorists and policymakers is primarily divided between advocates who support cultural/behavioral arguments and those who support structural/economic arguments. This debate tends to manifest itself across political party lines with republicans supporting the cultural/behavioral thesis and democrats looking more to structural causes. The passage of the “behavioral” focused Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act (1996) and its possible strengthening by the Bush Administration and its congressional allies calls for further examination of the relationship between cultural/behavioral and structural causes of poverty. This paper will briefly examine the theoretical arguments behind these competing views followed by an analysis to determine the empirical relevancy of each. It should be noted that the exploration of this topic began with the intention of making an argument for the fusion of these perspectives into a single empirically validated theory; one that would build upon Orlando Patterson’s (2000) theoretical model on the interaction between cultural models, structural environments and behavioral outcomes.,%20for,%20and%20as%20Sustainable%20Development%20-%20Conclusions%20from%20the%20COST%20Action%20IS1007%20-%20Investigating%20Cultural%20Sustainability%20%20%5d/%5b%5d

    109. Robert Graham says:

      Mike;@ 12.39 , Well done that man never missed the target and hit the wall , i am glad you moderated your Language mine would have got me banned ha ha , again you are amongst friends and like minded folk .

    110. David says:

      Ok. Lesson learned. Never, ever, ever voice a slightly different opinion in an echo chamber 😉

      The reactionary voices on this site are a fairly stable argument against Scottish independence.

      In fact, its the only positive thing I can think of if we dont get our independence this time around – the type of drivel that will pour onto some of the comments on this blog. lol

    111. David says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Cheers Buddy. I know Scotland is a virtual gold mine. Its not wrong to try to be realistic though.

    112. Pete says:

      A bit over the top but he makes some good points.
      I think we need to accept that for a good few years we are going to be poorer
      We will need to accept reductions in public expenditure as to increase taxes would just be madness.
      Being a brexiteer I happily accept that it will be bumpy and probably make us a bit poorer than we otherwise would be for a few years.
      But, what price freedom!!!!!!
      It’s also interesting how often the regulars post on here and the amount of time they are able to devote.
      Makes you wonder???????

    113. Ken500 says:

      Johnston Press has been fighting for survival since the financial crash. It is wrestling with the decline of the local newspaper industry and is labouring under debts. It has £200Millions of bonds that are due to examine it refinancing options. It has £200Million of bonds due to mature in 2019, that will need to be refinanced. £137Million of debt. The shares have dropped to 17p, valuing it at £17Million. Rothchild have been brought it to for advice. Bernstein, Crystal Amber fund that owns 20% of the shares, has lost confidence in CE Ashley Highfield and finance manager David King.

      Trinity Press (Mirror) were looking to take over the Express. Conciliation. There is loss of readership and advertising revenues. Most assets concern property. Real estate. The value of commercial premises.

    114. louis.b.argyll says:

      Successive UK GOVERNMENTS have cut social and care management services.

      The rising ‘age of the population’ HASNT HAPPENED OVERNIGHT.

      Failure to match forecasts with realistic funding IS DELIBERATE.

      The Tories are rubbing their hands in glee, that we’re actually blaming the ‘ageing population’ itself (instead of them)) while they privatise the NHS IN ENGLAND.

    115. Big Jock says:

      Correct me if I am wrong, but there are currently no third world countries in Europe. Is Scotland going to the first and only third world country in Europe. Behind Romania, Ukraine, Latvia,Estonia, Poland,Greece, Iceland, Slovakia…..

      The truth is that it’s not even possible for a european nation to become third world. It would require a complete breakdown of capital,healthcare and education.

      To claim such a thing is reprehensible and the economist should be laughed at or pitied.

    116. heedtracker says:

      It’s also interesting how often the regulars post on here and the amount of time they are able to devote.
      Makes you wonder???????

      Makes you wonder what Pete? What an idiot you are.

    117. Proud Cybernat says:

      Fuck! Now there’s two of them!

    118. Mike says:


      No Pete we actually don’t have to accept that at all.
      Scotland goes Independent either with NO DEBT at all or with a proportion of UK debt plus a proportion of UK assets.
      Either scenario sees Scotland starting off in a position where is wont have to make a choice between cuts or taxation.
      We will start with a surplus relative to what we have now.
      There is no Scottish deficit there is ONLY a UK deficit partly being attributed to Scotland as our Union benefit.
      Its the UK Government who are over spending not the Scottish Government and they are not over spending on Scotland or for Scotland they are overspending to maintain their austerity ideology their Rule Britannia global stage mentality their criminally corrupt treasonous ideology of transferring public funding onto the Private sector.
      That’s where our money is going straight to the Private sector instead of to public services.
      That’s our “Overspend” right there and that disappears with Independence and Independent spending choices.
      Actually spending on public services and not warmongering Trident bank bailouts PFI PPP programs.
      The UK is awash with public funding because we are the most heavily taxed society on the planet the problem is not in the amount of money available but in how that money is criminally and ideologically spent.
      That’s what Independence will do from day 1 remove the ideological criminal spending programs from Scotlands budgets.
      That’s why we wont need to increase taxation or cut services. Christ what services are there left to cut?
      They are cut to the bone already thanks to Privatisation.

    119. galamcennalath says:

      Dorothy Devine says:

      a brilliant independent country , milk and honeyed from top to toe. Outlandishly wealthy and everyone will smile and dance in the streets.

      That picture was painted by some of the Brexiteers for their iEngland! Some Leave voters still believe it.

      We have a more realistic aspiration for our iScotland.

    120. Clapper57 says:

      Signs of drug abuse :

      Paranoia – Check

      Reduced inhibitions – Check

      Difficulty concentrating – Check

      Decreased mental sharpness – Check

      Poor performance at work – Check

      An altered sense of perception – Check

      Confusion – Check

      Psychotic behavior – Check

      Delusions – Check

      Impaired judgement – Check

      Aggressive , possibly violent behavior – Check

      There is obvious CRACKS in this story it’s not really STIMULATING . It’s all very well for them sitting on their HIGH horses judging, but to just accept that he is correct is frankly so irresponsible they should be STONED with ROCKS.

      This story made me SNORT with laughter and take a sharp INHALE of breath, they did INJECT some humour into story when they mentioned name of expert though.

      One could easily become ADDICTED to stories such as this if one was DEPENDENT on fake news.

      I think that the Prof should ask for a WITHDRAWAL of this story as he must now realise that there is no real SUBSTANCE to his story.

      I do not think he should PROSTITUTE himself and I think he is just a regular JOHN who sometimes TRICKS us as obvious he can be a bit of a BLOW. And he should not PIMP himself out to these despicable rags.

      I am sure anyone, with half a brain, reading this SHIT will not have their MINDS ALTERED because you would have to be on DRUGS to believe this crock ( or Crack) of SHIT in fact you would have to be a big DOPE . These DEALERS PEDDLE their lies and I am sure this type of churnalism will WEAR OFF as it is just such a DOWNER.

      Read up on the Prof and my God it beggars belief that they had to stoop so LOW to pull this Muppet out of the bag…..he is literally waiting for the CANDY MAN … more ways than one. Lol.

    121. sensibledave says:

      … just thought I would say Hi and disassociate myself from the two mischief makers on here today.

      As regulars will know, my role is simply to inform, educate, correct the misguided and share my brilliant insights. A sort of moderator really.

    122. shiregirl says:

      I think David needs a hug.

    123. dakk says:

      David says
      ‘The reactionary voices on this site are a fairly stable argument against Scottish independence.’ 1.07pm

      Your comment at 10.20 probably made more sense than this one.

    124. Mike says:


      “Ok. Lesson learned. Never, ever, ever voice a slightly different opinion in an echo chamber
      The reactionary voices on this site are a fairly stable argument against Scottish independence.
      In fact, its the only positive thing I can think of if we dont get our independence this time around – the type of drivel that will pour onto some of the comments on this blog. lol”

      This clown started of posting by claiming it was Pro Independence.
      “The Reactionary voices” Only a Yoon would describe pro Scottish Independence argument as “Reactionary”
      David this is how normal people “REACT” to reading pure unadulterated pish.
      If you weren’t a Yoon and you read it from somebody else you would “REACT” in exactly the same way.
      So why don’t you start doing your day job as a Labour/Tory councillor?

    125. galamcennalath says:

      Of course iScotland will cut public spending!

      Stop £4billon on England’s debt replayments, £1billion reduction of defence spending, stop contributing it SE England infrastructure projects … there’s a bloody great hole in Scotland’s supposed ‘deficit’ sorted.

      In a low price year the Norwegian government makes £2billion from its oil. Much much more on a good year. iScotland needs to copy their model.

      Cuts? The only thing which needs to be cut around here is abusive. colonial rule from London.

    126. Proud Cybernat says:

      Scrub that. Now THREE of them.

    127. HandandShrimp says:


      What people are reacting to is your Lord Monkton “Scottish Subsidy Junkies” meme.

      Benefits cheats undoubtedly do exist but they are not as big an economic issue as is often thought. The Tories and their we are all in together crap has in fact focussed almost entirely on cutting benefits. Austerity as a philosophy as sought to correct the fiscal imbalance purely on the backs of the most vulnerable. The wealthy have in fact got wealthier.

      No one expects a benefits system that rewards stupidity and laziness but we do not want a benefits system that demonizes the poor and vulnerable either.

      I do not doubt that there are people that see an independent Scotland as an opportunity to plough a libertarian laissez faire model. By and large given the political lean of the majority here you are unlikely to get many takers for such an approach on Wings. Yes it is an alternative economic argument but one that will entrench privilege and leave the poor behind.

    128. shiregirl says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      20 February, 2017 at 1:48 pm
      Scrub that. Now THREE of them.


      I’ve time for sensibledave as he is affable, but misguided 🙂 … unlike some of the yoonatics posting today. They are clearly on the wind up.

    129. Arabs for Independence says:

      It is a pity that M15 or the British establishment never had any excuse to blackmail Mr McWilliams

    130. Chick McGregor says:


      Boy you really got into GEAR there. 🙂

    131. Proud Cybernat says:

      “It’s also interesting how often the regulars post on here and the amount of time they are able to devote.”

      I’m a keyboard warrior. It’s what I do. But definitely not a warrior of the (t)Ruthless type though:

      Our Indy will be won like this:

    132. K1 says:

      ‘Ok. Lesson learned. Never, ever, ever voice a slightly different opinion in an echo chamber ?’

      This would be an example from your ‘slightly different opinion’:

      ‘Some of you regulars might just have to get a job. Imagine that? :D. Ok that WAS a trollish comment. But you f**kwits deserve it for your reactionary s**te.”

      Your’e getting pelters precisely because of your cherry picking from the ‘how we’re taught to view ourselves as Westminster sees us’ fiction sheet. And for your insulting comments. And you just proven that you’re a compete fud by then pretending that your ‘unique’ and ‘slightly different opinion’ is the ‘problem’ with what you are copying and pasting from ‘any old rag’s’ front pages of ‘Scotland’s a disaster, Independence will prove it’ shysters shit.

      When that’s not the problem at all, what your’e writing David isn’t that ‘slightly different’ from anything that most unionists are printing. Which is mostly lies and obfuscation.

      Don’t play the victim card David, everyone can see plainly what you are doing. And it’s quite frankly…pathetic.

    133. Robert Peffers says:

      And himself a Scot?Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      Aye! Richt!

      Robert Burns – in 1791

      Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation

      “Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame,
      Fareweel our ancient glory;
      Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name,
      Sae fam’d in martial story.
      Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
      An’ Tweed rins to the ocean,
      To mark where England’s province stands-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      What force or guile could not subdue,
      Thro’ many warlike ages,
      Is wrought now by a coward few,
      For hireling ("Tractor" - Ed)’s wages.
      The English stell we could disdain,
      Secure in valour’s station;
      But English gold has been our bane-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      O would, or I had seen the day
      That Treason thus could sell us,
      My auld grey head had lien in clay,
      Wi’ Bruce and loyal Wallace!
      But pith and power, till my last hour,
      I’ll mak this declaration;
      We’re bought and sold for English gold-
      Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation”

      Burns was perhaps born before his time.

      Mind you this was written just 84 years after those particular rogues were selling Scotland off and only 46 years after the Battle of Culloden and thus the events were still very raw in the memories of older Scots.

    134. K1 says:

      Pete…fae Endinubrugh?

      Have you heard of mobile devices? Y’know the things that can be carried about anywhere and utilised at any moment?


    135. Terry says:

      “An independent scotland would be like Greece without the sun”.

      When I’m met with this I just say –

      “An independent scotland would be like Norway but WITH the whisky”.

      That floors them. After all we are far more similar to Norway in the realms of population, geography, resources etc you can see the penny dropping. Then you casually add to the list things like the gaming industry that scotland has that even Norway doesn’t. He he.

      Try this approach. It works.

    136. bjsalba says:


      Heard of the
      European Globalisation Adjustment Fund (EGF)

      The European Globalisation Adjustment Fund provides support to people losing their jobs as a result of major structural changes in world trade patterns due to globalisation, e.g. when a large company shuts down or production is moved outside the EU, or as a result of the global economic and financial crisis.

      Last I heard, the UK has never applied.

    137. Dr Jim says:

      When Nicola Sturgeon goes to bed at night she dreams of how to make Scotland poorer
      When she wakes up, making Scotland poorer occupies her thoughts for the entire day
      Her ambition in life and her burning desire is to make us all poverty stricken

      And still after listening to all this crap Unionists and No voters haven’t asked themselves the question..Why would she do that? wouldn’t she be instantly voted out of office if that happened?

      So they must believe the FM and the SNP are completely incompetent, but if so why does the SNP keep getting elected by huge majorities?
      So by implication these experts and their newspapers are telling the electorate of Scotland that we’re all stupid and that includes No voters because many of them vote SNP but don’t necessarily want Independence

      So in conclusion the English government, the Tory economists, and the English owned newspapers are shouting at Scotland in the same manner they shout derogatory abuse at every other foreign country and their people who they want out of England but for some strange unfathomable reason they never articulate they demand to keep Scotland close and love us and cuddle us while still holding the right to abuse us

      Now if you were to take these symptoms to a divorce court I can practically guarantee who’s side the judge would rule on
      Scotland would get the Hoose the car the kids the dug and the three piece suite and telly plus maintainance and the Unionists would be lucky to avoid jail time!

    138. Fergus Green says:

      @Terry 2.17

      “An independent Scotland would be like Norway but WITH the whisky”.

      Great response.

    139. wull2 says:

      Dr Jim, who gets the CDs ? now that worth reporting in the media.

    140. bugsbunny says:


      It’s on page 2 of the Sun as well. Project Fear 2 has been well and truly launched. Just in time to save the scum that controls Glasgow. Well it won’t work. To hell with the lot of them. It’s time the SNP took the kid gloves off, even if it’s just to defend themselves. Being nice only invites bullies to use your face as a door mat. Enough is enough.

    141. Luigi says:

      O/T two of the favoured yoon comments on IndyRef 2 appear to be:

      1) The large movement of NO to YES observed since the BREXIT vote has been more than cancelled out by voters moving in the opposite direction.

      2) The polls have been stable for so long and have solidified. Opinions have hardened and polarised. Any further gains to YES will be very difficult.

      Ahem, either there has been a large movement of NO to YES and vice versa, OR opinions have hardened and won’t change anymore. Can’t be both, yoons. 🙂

    142. Roboscot says:

      Daily Express HUMILIATED by proper journalist.

    143. Clapper57 says:

      Chick McGregor says:
      20 February, 2017 at 1:59 pm

      “Boy you really got into GEAR there”.

      Chick…..oh my giddy aunt how did I MISS using the word GEAR…knew there was another word I could have used…..must get up to SPEED for next time.

      Have great day.

    144. bugsbunny says:

      Someone jokingly asked me last week, “What would happen if everyone was given an IQ test to vote and anyone under 95 was denied the franchise?” Before I could answer my friend replied, “All the old Labour voters who switched to Tory and all the people who march the streets with unrolled umbrellas and bowlers hats would suddenly have no vote and Scotland would be free”.

      Let’s face it, he’s right. A bigger bunch of morons it’s harder to find this side of the Appalachian Mountains. Donald Trump once said, “I like the stupid, they vote for me”. Ruthie and Kezia can claim the same.

    145. dakk says:

      “An independent Scotland would be like Norway but WITH the whisky”.

      Also we know that Britain/England without stealing Scotland’s wealth and resources would be like Bangladesh…WITH the floods

    146. Clapper57 says:


      “I’ve time for sensibledave as he is affable”

      Shiregirl, AFFABLE ?..No…LAUGHABLE…Yes….AFFABLE….No.

      Sorry could not resist, absolutely no offense meant to you…have a good day.

    147. Robert Graham says:

      Oh well according to dave everyone posting here ,wasters , out of work , benefit scroungers, with way too much time on their hands.
      I learned years ago it is often dangerous to make assumptions about anyone’s particular circumstances or indeed who they are given most of us never have the full picture of anyone , in short David ( if that is the name he has to use today ) is making this assumption in order to extract a reaction , job done his shift must be over by now and the next plant will take his or her place , Possibly all you folk with f/k all to do could work out the shift pattern & changes and react accordingly as these interlopers are not here by accident .

    148. Daisy Walker says:

      Yes We Can,

      One of the first things an Independent Scotland can do is to take the £300 million each year, currently appropriated by the BBC, and which is raised fully in Scotland, and invest it in some good going Film/TV studios.

      Site it somewhere in the middle of the Central Belt, and low and behold, it would be 1 hour from Edinburgh, 1 hour from Glasgow and their airports. It would be an hour from the Highlands – world class scenery. And 2 – 3 hours from the beeches of the Western Isles.

      Of course TV and Film need arty types, don’t they. Glasgow School of Art is internationally recognised as one of the worlds best. And I’m willing to bet Edinburgh and Duncan of Jordansons are no too shabby either.

      It would need some fine dining, fancy hotels for stars to stay… Gleneagles would do I would imagine, got a bit of practice.

      And of course an industry like that needs, make up artists, hairdressers, joiners, sparkies, caterers (Perth College has a good rep for some of these). Its only jobs and apprenticeships like. And all of that’s before you even talk about writers, directors, actors…

      Ah, yes, but a lot of films these days rely on Computer Generated Special Effects. How on earth would pour, wee Scotland ever provide fancy stuff like that. Well they might nip along to Dundee where they made and developed the worlds best selling computer game Grand Theft Auto, and see if they can help.

      And of course a Government with it hands on all the levers of control, well they could do some tax incentives to attract new films, now what small, heather clad, rain torn country did that recently and to good effect? Hmmm, oh yes Ireland.

      Kind of worked for them too, (Braveheart did rather well internationally) and Northern Ireland landed the shooting rights for Game of Thrones – one of the biggest, best selling TV shows on the planet at the moment, and in addition to the jobs it has created there for the actual filming… oh yes it has also generated an additional tourist trade off the back of it. In total £45 million a year to their economy.

      The Gvt could even invest in the Film/TV/Acting schools and universities with a few grants.

      But what else could such an investment do? Hmm, well lets see, villages and towns and estates where the filming takes place, come to financial agreements. Kaching. And of course they often need extras for the filming. Can you imagine being a school child, or a teenager, or a student, or a pensioner, and getting a go at that. For some at least it would be an inspiration and for the others a wee bit of cash.

      And all of this activity creates a buzz about a place, and they need places to feed and water and relax, and before you know it you’ve got a thriving boost to a local city economy.

      And say, just say, they produce a fairly successful TV series, oh say like Outlander, for example… (don’t worry if you never heard of it, it doesn’t get shown here, cause David Cameron spoke to Sony to prevent it – cause he was so interested in Wealth Creation, good little tory that he was! aye right) well wouldn’t you just know it… it gets sold and shown all round the world, which feeds into that little old tourism thing again. Yahoo.

      And what does tourism do, but bring in foreign money into the country, which helps the balance of trade payments. Well who’d have thunk it.

      And all of that, from our current payments to the London Beeb.

      And that is just one small example of what can be fairly easily done where there is the will, the vision and most importantly the governmental levers of power to do so.

      Instead of which we get Jackie Burd. And fucking Coke Heads telling us we cannae.

      Anyway, this is my response to Trolls. Yes We Can. Coming up next is Oil and Gas, Renewables, Whiskey, Peoples Banks, Land Ownership, Defence, and not just from me, but all the Wingers and a whole nation of Yessers.

    149. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Oh well according to dave everyone posting here ,wasters , out of work , benefit scroungers, with way too much time on their hands.”

      Wonder how he knows who the “regulars” are? Keeping tabs on us, Dave?


    150. Liz Rannoch says:

      Rev on twitter has just asked for Mail/Express front page “…spitting on the graves of war dead..”.
      I found this but don’t do twitter, can anybody help?

    151. Liz Rannoch says:

      me @ 3.00

      Could be something the mail/express jumped all over a day or two later? Wouldn’t be like them.

    152. galamcennalath says:

      A wee bit competition can be a good thing.

      When we go our separate ways, which the Tories seem Hell bent on facilitating, howsabout a wee challenge.

      Which country, iScotland or iEngland will be first to banish child poverty?

    153. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think I’ve mentioned that social inclusion is of paramount concern.

      Theories of Poverty: A Comparative Analysis

      Many poverty authors point out that the various ways poverty is conceptualized and measured are very crucial because different poverty measures tend to capture different people as poor. The main focus of this research is to review the theoretical and empirical research on theories of poverty, poverty measures and outcomes. Subsequently, we discuss conceptual framework of the different poverty measures.

    154. David Mills says:

      I have but one arising question how in the name of the wee name did Douglas Fraser get that article pass the BBC filters and on the the BBC SCOTLAND news Web page.

    155. heedtracker says:

      You can watch listen to Lords debate Brexit right now online. UK gov spokes lady says all devolved parliaments are involved with Mayhem’s Brexit team. No idea how though.

      Nice to see our UKOK imperial masters bare faced lying like this though.

    156. Big Jock says:

      I’m at work, not sponging or begging as Pete suggests. I work at a desk with a pc . It’s not that hard to find time between work to post on Wings when your IQ is more than 95!

    157. Macart says:

      To put not too fine a point on it for the experts.

      If the economic model of this unitary state is so fecking wunnerful, just why is there a mahoosive debt? A debt, which rather than receding through due repayment, is set to climb from its current level of £1.6tr to £1.9tr by 2020? Why is there a need for a fiscal reset? Why is there austerity ideology in place? Why is Scotland’s economy at best under threat and at worst a basket case?

      Oh, and given UK gov’s handling of the economy is so catastrophic, just why should the ‘think tanks’ so treasued by the meeja and central government be trusted sources of information? Let’s face it. If they are a ‘go to’ souce of HMGs fiscal advice, they clearly haven’t done a very good job of advising government, have they?

      None of these ‘think tank’ experts, the meeja or their Westminster chain tuggers have any room to decry the economic records of other states and most especially not when a number of the near neighbours on the continent seem to manage quite well without their input. When they get their own shit in order, they may then and only then have a little wiggle room. Right about now however, neither their record, nor or their … advice, really impresses.

    158. Aikenheed says:

      WOW Daisy just WOW

    159. Col says:

      I’ve just had a thought.
      Scotland is in a bipartite union with England. Let’s forget about Wales and Northern Ireland for the moment.
      If Scotland is denied access to the UK’s accounting surely this union is completely invalid in that we can never get that access. Just a thought.

    160. Les Wilson says:

      For those who have not read this article about how our
      oil was stolen here is an interesting link to ponder.

    161. Proud Cybernat says:

      Aye Daisy. That was a belter. Looking forward to your next installment.

      Hey Yoons – see what you can do with just a wee bit of thinking and when you stop wasting £300 million on the BBC in Scotland.

    162. Albert Herring says:

      It’s Pete ‘n’ Dud all over again.

    163. Jack Murphy says:

      With reference to the main article at top of page, highlighting the Doom that awaits an independent Scotland,I’ll re-post this link I put up a couple of days ago:-

      “a video clip from last week’s Glasgow BBC Question Time—Mark Littlewood,Director General of Institute of Economic Affairs.”
      Video is embedded in the article.

    164. Fergus Green says:

      @Daisy Walker 2.57

      I have to admit Daisy, I don’t always always read the longer posts- paragraphised or otherwise – but I’m certainly happy I read yours.

      That was great.

    165. bugsbunny says:

      Sensible Dave,

      So if you’re on the computer between 9 and 5 you’re a scrounger?

      So what about health workers like Nurses and Auxiliaries who work 12 hour shifts 4 days on 3 days off twice a month and 3 days on 4 days off twice a month,( 8 x 12 + 6 x 12 = 96 + 72 = 168 hours per month /4 = 42 hours per week), the same as 9 to 5 folks 5 days a week. Are they lazy scroungers? While your watching Eastenders 2 hours after your 9 to 5 job finished from trolling folks online paid by their taxes Mr Spook, these same individuals who started work before you got out your bed are just finishing work. So kindly shut the f**k up you twat.

    166. Dr Jim says:

      So the so called Brexit bill begins in the HOL with Theresa May in attendance for opening speeches glaringly staring accross at opposition spokesperson Baroness Smith of Basildon
      who waved off TMs threats to the Lords and ridiculed the terminology of Brexit means Brexit and the so called Great Repeal bill (her words)

      Theresa May glowered at her through slitted eyes and it made not one jot of a difference to the Baroness
      Then Theresa May left the building

      One of the threats made by the government was to flood the HOL with a thousand Tory Lords to get their way to which the Baroness pointed out that would take around two years to do and would be too late for the government by then by then

      I keep thinking I might have to smear the blood of a lamb accross my front door and stay in for a while
      I can’t think why I’m reminded of that

    167. heedtracker says:

      Albert Herring says:
      20 February, 2017 at 3:33 pm
      It’s Pete ‘n’ Dud all over again.

      If only. All bums like Pete and his assorted yoons on here are doing really is saying, how your country is run is none of your concern.

      If you are concerned about how Scotland is run and even dare to say so online, then bums like Pete want you to know that there MUST be something wrong with you, very wrong, so wrong you’re unemployable.

      Welcome to the tory mindset, red and blue, on planet toryboy, where politics is theirs, and the tory BBC led media’s too.

      Isn’t that right Pete?

    168. Robert Louis says:

      So, we can see quite clearly now, that the unionists are getting scared. For months now, they have been telling us all, Nicola Sturgeon is bluffing and she will never call a referendum. Now, they start re-hashing the tired old silly scare stories of the original project fear.

      If we believe what these propaganda ‘news’papers tell us, Scotland is a poor bereft wee country, that is dependent upon London handouts, and it is ONLY because of the unending largesse of the English Tory Government, that Scotland stays afloat. Aye, right.

      Of course upon independence, we would either have zero debt, or a share of the UK debt plus an equivalent share of UK assets, to start with. Then we could chart an economic course, that won’t involved spending billions of pounds on the unwanted Nuclear bombs on the river clyde, we wouldn’t be paying for the high speed rail line in England anymore, or grandiose projects such as Heathrow’s third runway, or the London crossrail project.

      No, instead we could invest in the infrastructure of Scotland, creating a powerful, innovative economy, based upon distilling, oil and gas, renewables, food and fish, life sciences, finance and so on.

      The future of Scotland is very bright, but only if we remove London’s shackles which are holding us back.

      Time for independence. Time for Scotland to be a nation again. Unionists are right to be feart.

    169. Famous15 says:

      Scotland is unique..

      It is a rich country but we will be poor. Why? Because Unionists say so. Get over it.

    170. Brian MacLeod says:

      Aye, after independence under the SNP we’ll be as broke as Saudi Arabia within weeks…. 🙂

    171. Breeks says:

      Well I’m quite relaxed about Scotland’s recovery post Independence because it’s already happening before Independence. We have a government supporting Scottish industry, Dalzell steelworks reopened, major investment plans for Kinlochleven, our new Forth Bridge and Borders Railway… Makes a change from Westminster shutting it all down, or fudging the tenders to rob Rosyth of contracts they meant to award to Devonport, or the more usual “now you see it, now you don’t” UK contract which gets wheeled out whenever there’s a vote in the offing.

      Just imagine what our government could do with full control over our economy once we are no long chained at the hip to the UK. Come to think of it, just imagine what our government could do with goodwill from our European neighbours, rather than decades of sullen frustration.

      I dare say there will be difficulties, there will be problems, there will be inevitable set backs, but Scotland will be just like every other country who finds their feet after independence. Many such countries would give their eye teeth to have a fraction of the resources and potential which Scotland has. We don’t know how lucky we are.

      And then of course, we come to the alternative – because unlike 2014, there is no status quo option to preserve. We can choose to control our destiny, or strap ourselves into passengers seat as the UK tries to defy all the global observers who cannot believe the rank idiocy of Brexit. You talk about uncertainty for Scottish business? Hello? HELLO? You do know what Brexit actually means, don’t you? The EU not only has its own free market, but Trade Deals in place with a further 50 Non EU countries, and Britain is going stick two fingers up to every one of those deals and make up its own rules overnight… Yeah, good luck with that. I’m sure the Aussies and Kiwi’s don’t harbour any grudges about being hung out to dry in the 1970’s. I’m sure the Chinese will be fine with your embarrassing outbursts of xenophobia, and hey, the USA has to dump its steroid pumped beef somewhere… somewhere daft enough or desperate enough to agree to widespread deregulation.

      Heads up David and Mike, there is only one political leader in the U.K. currently talking sense and squaring away the housekeeping of good government; reassuring those imperilled and alienated by the stupidity of Brexit and Tory government which won’t even commit to protecting the interests of non-nationals. Nicola Sturgeon did so as an instinctive reflex. You do realise there are one or two British citizens living in Europe who will reap what you have sown? Not just the kick up the arse for all those swarthy Johnny Foreigner types who you want to see the back of.

      Nicola Sturgeon does have the confidence of Scottish business, and she also has the confidence of the Leadership of other EU States, while they are still rubbing their eyes in disbelief that the UK has evicted itself from Europe, and then demands the concessions of membership. The UK has thrown itself into free fall and now tries to reassure the Brexiteers that a parachute will be coming along any minute.

      Brexit will be fine they cheer. Look! Exports are up! Yeah? What about Imports? Or have we a decent size of rug to sweep the UK’s balance of Trade out of sight? For the dummies here, the U.K. is a nett importer of goods, so a weak pound costs the economy more than it saves.
      But consumer spending is strong! Yes, so it is. Get your fridges and washing machines quick, because they’ll be costing twice as much by the end of the simmer.

      Yeah, let’s not talk about Brexit; that genius idea worked out between David Cameron and George Osborne, hijacked by the far right racists and spivs who want to see Britain’s attitude towards immigrants restored to 19th Century values. But never mind Boris Johnson is still in there, fighting the good fight and doing whatever is best for Boris Johnson. We’re all in safe ha… err…

      In fact, I’m so cock sure of myself, I think I’ll go an troll on some Unionist web chat, and rub a few folks noses in it…. Or no, wait a minute, I won’t, because I’m not a sad little arsehole.

    172. Proud Cybernat says:

      You’re on fire today, Breeks! Gawn yersel!

    173. K1 says:

      I am happy to echo that Proud Cybernat…guan yersel’ Breeks!

    174. bugsbunny says:

      Cybernat@ 1.26

      “Fuck,now there’s two of them”.

      Actually David, Pate and Sensible Dave all have the same writing style, grammar and post around the same time. I’ve even seen them all within 30 minutes of each other. Of course this individual spook, (we’ll call him Rupert) posts mornings as well as afternoons.

      So either he is unemployed, retired, disabled, or more that likely typing from some government outpost. I challenge anyone to say that David, Pete, and Sensible Dave are NOT the same person. I say they are. And probably Phil Robertson as well.
      They all write the same, type the same. say the same things at the same time. #what a coincidence?

    175. sensibledave says:

      bugsbunny @ 3.43

      What’s up doc? What did I do to deserve that little tirade from you? I don’t think your comment was anything to do with anything I wrote?

      Much prefer:……

      shiregirl at 1:58 pm

      She wrote “I’ve time for sensibledave as he is affable”

      Thank you Shiregirl. I will take that!

      (Now Heedy, that is not a cue for you to write an unintelligible missive without punctuation or discernible meaning other than to suggest I am a “yooun/UKOK/Toryboy” whatever. And Robert Peffers, please don’t write 30 paragraphs to explain, again, to me why Alex Salmond is actually the heir to the Crown in Wales and the evidence you have that proves it!).

      I hope that you are all enjoying some of the springlike weather we are enjoying darn eer in the sarf – although we are told winter will be back before the end of the week. Its too nice for politics today.

    176. Dal Riata says:

      Nice one Stu, skewered the bastard!

      For sure, the Loonunionists on Twitter and the like will be close to self-combustion such will be their venom towards Stu regarding this article.

      The fact that it was their own propaganda sheets that – two years ago – printed the truth about ‘top economist’ Douglas Williams’ behaviour regarding imbibing star-spangled powder and beating up women will undoubtedly be ignored. Fucking idiots.

      Oh aye, and yer man there Osborne. It’s alleged that he’s fond of a wee Colombian marching powder sensation himself. Expensive business. No wonder (allegedly) he charges, and receives, excessive amounts of moolah for his ‘speeches’ to the gullible…

    177. stu mac says:


      I’m not too great at interpreting these things and there are different levels for different kinds of benefits, however as far as I can see benefit fraud is no higher than c.4.5% for some and as low as under 2% for others. So benefit fraud accounts for less than 5% at worst and in many cases much lower. Also the amount of money lost is miniscule compared to tax avoidance which much less effort is put into preventing.

    178. Big Jock says:

      Interesting that they think project fear will work twice. I suppose it’s all they’ve got. But to win a battle with the same two protagonists when the ground has shifted and using the same tactics is very naive.

      You see it works like this. When you scare a child the first time, they might just believe you. But when the child knows the story already. They know what’s coming so the effect is diminished to the point of losing it’s bite altogether.

      Furthermore when the child realises that adults have been lying to them. They go off and discover the truth, and the lies become white noise.

    179. Dorothy Devine says:

      Gallamennalath , I hope you read the last bit of my comment!

      Daisy , I’ve rolled my sleeves up and am raring to go!

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      Makes you wonder. Wings clearly gets the trolls that didn’t even get selected for the reserves of the B team. Who gets the ones that are any good?

    181. K1 says:

      In case some people need reminded of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer of Westminster parliament:

      Here he is out of his fucking face sitting on the front benches:

      That him and McWilliams worked together in any capacity raises serious questions about the competence and professional abilities of those at the top levels of government who clearly imbibe class A illegal drugs whilst informing policy and making laws that affect the rest of us.

      I’ll not trust a single word that comes out of people like McWilliams mouth when he is clearly compromised at every level. That these rags promote these utter failed human beings as somehow reliable impartial truth brokers who haven’t bent every rule in the book and are probably at serious risk of blackmail is utterly beyond parody.

      And anyone, I mean anyone who cites any sources such as these as somehow accurately reflecting the economic picture that would emerge in Scotland after independence are themselves deeply intellectually flawed and reveal a massive deficit in their own comprehension skills, as they clearly have no capacity to see through these shysters and what their true aims are.

      People like the McWilliams’ and Osborne’s of the world are useful idiots, they do what they are telt because they have lost all humanity and have been thoroughly compromised. They are fodder fed to the masses disguised as ‘legitimate’ sources, scratch the surface and you have the ugly and painful (for the naive) truth, that these people are corrupt beyond redemption and their aim is to maintain their thoroughly corrupt practices and lifestyles. At any cost. That’s it.

    182. Rock says:

      The Scottish media, led by the BBC, is the enemy of the Scottish people, in my view.

    183. manandboy says:

      Meanwhile, over in the Province, Arleen Foster and the DUP reminding us all what Loyalist Unionists are all about. No policies, just make sure the DUP stay in charge- just like their Scottish cousins:-

      “In her speech, Mrs Foster said all the recent polling suggested it would be “neck-and-neck” between her party and Sinn Féin.
      She attacked Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt for saying he would be giving his second preference vote to the SDLP, calling the move “sad and shameful”.
      “I know other parties don’t like us saying it, but the reality is that every vote for another unionist party is a vote which is lost in the battle to make sure that Sinn Féin does not win this election,” she said.
      Mrs Foster’s 10 reasons for opposing such an outcome included claims that it would:
      Give Sinn Féin an excuse to use it as justification to call for a border poll
      Make devolution harder to restore
      Threaten economic recovery by undermining the prospects for a reduction in corporation tax
      Allow Sinn Féin to take the justice ministry; and it would lead to a “sectarian abuse of power”
      She concluded: “It would give Gerry Adams and Sinn Féin a hugely significant worldwide propaganda boost just months after nationalism’s worst election since 1993 and would undermine the unionist confidence which is being rebuilt after so many years in decline.
      “And finally, it would, of course, give Sinn Féin the right to nominate a first minister – our job is to make sure that does not happen.”

      The BBC noted Mrs Foster’s speech contained 31 mentions of Sinn Féin, 12 of its president Gerry Adams and just one of its new northern leader, Michelle O’Neill.

      Theresa May and Arleen Foster, allies in the Unionist cause.

    184. shiregirl says:

      Clapper57 says:
      20 February, 2017 at 2:49 pm

      “I’ve time for sensibledave as he is affable”

      Shiregirl, AFFABLE ?..No…LAUGHABLE…Yes….AFFABLE….No.

      Sorry could not resist, absolutely no offense meant to you…have a good day.

      None taken Clapper57 🙂

      I do, however take umbrage at Pete:
      20 February, 2017 at 1:15 pm

      “It’s also interesting how often the regulars post on here and the amount of time they are able to devote.
      Makes you wonder???????”

      Makes you wonder what? Are you stalking the site doing a time and motion on the regulars? Being a regular contributor doesn’t equate to indolence. What it does show is people from many different backgrounds coming together with devotion and passion for Independence. Come and join us!

    185. Rock says:

      Another brilliant exposure by the Rev. Stuart Campbell.

      Yet we have a prominent poster with the following view:


      “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”

    186. Proud Cybernat says:

      Backshift, Rock?

    187. Stoker says:

      Today’s WOS archive links now showing over on O/T.

    188. Clootie says:

      Sorry Macart!

      I cannot let 2 Trolls leave the implication hanging that Scotland would be poorer for a few years.

      Why would it be poorer? Is this the mythical spreadsheet of unionist “experts” being rolled out again. Every one of these experts uses the mini-UK model. They all allocate debt without assets. They all give absurd trade costs / borrowing rates etc etc.

      Take defence as one example. For far less than our current “share allocation” we could have a stronger convential force which met the needs of a maritime nation. The defence force would live in Scotland and spend their money in Scotland. The bases would draw work into the area.

      So for less money we can do more of what a maritime nation needs AND leverage local growth by service families living in Scotland.
      …the downside being we cannot sit at the BigBoy Nuke table.

      I’ll let the Trolls argue against renewable energy supporting steel manufacturing or an Oil & Gas fund. They can pretend that Tourism/Whisky/Food/Finance doesn’t exist but we know it does.

      I see nothing but growth for Scotland. More importantly it will be a significant growth period as regard a fairer society.

      All we need do is wrench Westminster greedy fingers from our financial levers.

    189. bugsbunny says:


      Looking at that clip of Osbourne I can honestly say he’s on the tail end of taking downers. He’s away with the fairies. I wouldn’t trust him to run a bath in that state, never mind the economy. I’d no idea he’s an addict. He’s off his tits, on barbiturates of some sorts by the look of it. F**king hell.

    190. Dr Jim says:

      The Trolls are getting really loud now like wee cartoon bubbles of dialogue jumping off the page
      They’ll be shouting see ye at 4 next, well it was 4 when I was at school, now I’m just a sponging layabout 68 year old pensioner who refuses to go out and pick fruit for a living like what the patriotic Unionists would do in my position

      Even though my profession and job experience was not as a MD I am however tempted to take up the governments kind offer of retraining me to be a surgeon or physicist along with bricklayers and hod carriers seeing as how all the foreign Medics are going to leave PDQ and my piano playing skills will no doubt come in handy for that, even though my fingers are a tad arthritic but that may be a bonus in surgery for the older folk making killing them off excusable and I can’t do a worse job of it than a retrained brickie (but that would only happen if I lived in the new improved post Brickbat Independent England)

      Ah Yoons, They did a stupid thing they voted a stupid way and now they’re stupidly defending their stupidity with stupid arguments
      And these are the same folk who constantly call Scottish people stupid

      I am so looking forward to winning Independence to hear the invented crap they’re going to come up with then

    191. ScottieDog says:

      “We will need to accept reductions in public expenditure….”

      A common sign that someone has no understanding of macroeconomics.
      At the aggregate level Spending EQUALS income. Capitalism relies on sales.

      The low spending gap (low deficit) of London and the SE might just have something to do with certain bailouts pumping up pay and bonuses in the financial sector. Higher income means higher tax revenue to govt.

      Next time you think of how to tackle a country’s large deficit think of what you do when your car encounters a skid. The intuitive answer is not always the correct one.

      Now I’ll away back to my Bucky and Jeremy Kyle…

    192. K1 says:

      Think he was ‘tripping’ bugsbunny…

    193. K1 says:

      Mind in get yer face paint oan tae Scottiedog…don’t be lettin’ the side doon. 😉

    194. bugsbunny says:

      Dr Jim,

      Did you see that clip that K1 gave us of George Osbourne? What’s your professional diagnosis? I think he’s tranqed on something? He’s spaced out.

    195. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      20 February, 2017 at 5:10 pm
      Another brilliant exposure by the Rev. Stuart Campbell.

      Yet we have a prominent poster with the following view:


      Perspective you mad old scroat.

      Social justice was at the heart of the 2014 independence referendum debate.

      To harness this enthusiasm for change, the SNP in government has led a conversation on how we can use the powers of the Scottish Parliament – and the limited new powers that are on their way – to tackle poverty and create genuine equality of opportunity.

      Earlier this year the Scottish Government launched the Fairer Scotland Action Plan, which sets out five ambitions for 2030 and 50 actions to build a fairer country.

    196. bugsbunny says:


      I think he’s on that big a trip, he’s been to the Moon and back. He’s certainly “spaced”.

    197. galamcennalath says:

      Dorothy Devine says:

      I hope you read the last bit of my comment!

      I did and agreed with you.

      My main point was the extent to which that contrasts with Brexit, where the rosy picture painted about how wonderful iEngland will be is shameless.

      That aside, Leave voters have all sorts of little notions about what they think Brexit will deliver for them. My guess is they will get absolutely none of what they expect!

    198. CameronB Brodie says:

      A spirit of inclusion should not be seen as providing a space for divisive actions. What you trying to achieve bud?

    199. CameronB Brodie says:

      I thought it was general knowledge that he’s a fan of the marching powder. If so, he’ll need to take the edge off somehow.

    200. heraldnomore says:

      Gosh is it Paper Scissors Bed time already?

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates MacSporran
      Thanks. That’s the reason though for my disclaimer “(albeit GVA not GDP)” – because the figures don’t exactly match.

      GVA is Gross Value Added, another one used at times is GNI – Gross National Income, and even GNP – Gross National Product. All have different mechanics to try to represent basically the worth of a country, and have different uses. GNI for instance is used to calculate EU member state contributions.

      But even GDP has different methodology and can give different values, so comparing the GDP of Scotland against that of the Pitcairn Islands might not be straightforward!

      GDP though is by far the most common method of comparing economies, and it’s the one most economists use.

      As they say, take 5 economists and they’ll give you 6 different opinions.

    202. K1 says:

      Trump’s state visit debating right now live…our guys are on fire!

      This is the only link I can find for this as it’s been held In a room of the westminster parly:

    203. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      20 February, 2017 at 6:00 pm
      A spirit of inclusion should not be seen as providing a space for divisive actions. What you trying to achieve bud?

      He would like WoS commenting to switch from commenting about Scottish democracy and follow him of the yoon cliff of btl doom, like lemmings, while the creep stands and watches. Brilliant.

      Jumping off a cliff like lemmings Cameron, actually stems from the famous tory Lord Rupert Lemmings, who became famous for jumping off cliffs. Wonderful class, our Lords and betters.

    204. Dan Huil says:

      It can only be a good thing when britnats are reduced to regurgitating comments from people like McWilliams and Osborne.

      Project Fear Vomit: it’s all britnats have.

    205. Macart says:


      More a case of general advice for the less forthcoming reader. If you want to enjoy a thread, look for the names you’re comfy with kinda thing. 🙂

      On the general spend issue. Before policy one, there’ll be no more notional UK debt share (dependent on negotiated settlement). No more attributed share of UK foreign policy spend. No more attributed share of UK infrastructure projects, Westminster expenses or UK borrowing and of course a restructuring of defence spend minus share of Trident 2. Not to mention a full accounting of tax and spend fully accredited to a Scottish exchequer.

      No more Extra Reggio and no more product tax credited to the UK exchequer because the product leaves these islands from an English port.

      Before policy ONE of a future independent Scottish government.

    206. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      A spirit of inclusion should not be seen as providing a space for divisive actions. What you trying to achieve bud?”

      Exposing those with agendas of their own who insult anyone who doesn’t agree with their views and have little faith in this blog and its author.

      Not even the SNP comes anywhere near exposing unionist hypocrisy and lies as the Rev. Stuart Campbell, as seen again in this article.

      The reason why he is hated so much by the forces that be.

      On an article about these threats (“The smell of fear”), I repeated a point I had made a few months before the referendum about his safety.

      For which I was called a “Dickhead” and the Rev. equated with any odd Yes voter.


      “For the sake of Scottish independence, the Rev. Stuart Campbell should move to a secret location outside the UK very quickly.”


      “Maybe every YES voter should do that Rock. Dickhead.”

      “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”

      “Divisive actions” are cause by the likes of “heedtracker” butting in with their usual waffle in response to serious points.

    207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi bugsbunny at 5:22 pm.

      You typed, re Osborne,
      “I wouldn’t trust him to run a bath in that state, never mind the economy.”

      Run a bath? He couldn’t even dress himself properly that morning! (His ‘Jeeves’ must have been on a day off.) Did you spot the state of the right collar of his shirt?

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes I agree. If any actual points are made, they do need answering, but it’s clear that the process of disruption is accelerating, it’s been happening in the Herald for some time, and also in The National. I think the latter suffered a bit because of its facebook login, where its other login didn’t seem to work. It’s all about supression and devaluation. The Scotsman is long gone and beyond redemtption below the line. One technique is to smother sensible postings with getting the focus on one individual, rather than the topic of the article – or any topic for that matter.

      It’s good though – as many have said it shows the desperation that is going through the declining Unionist camp – as indeed do the Times and Express articles based on the mutterings of an ignorant clown.

    209. heedtracker says:

      If you’re on facebook, SNP MP’s currently holding forth on Trump’s crass state Westminster visit. Its rather good too.

    210. Rock says:


      “Perspective you mad old scroat.

      Social justice was at the heart of the 2014 independence referendum debate.

      To harness this enthusiasm for change, the SNP in government has led a conversation on how we can use the powers of the Scottish Parliament – and the limited new powers that are on their way – to tackle poverty and create genuine equality of opportunity.

      Earlier this year the Scottish Government launched the Fairer Scotland Action Plan, which sets out five ambitions for 2030 and 50 actions to build a fairer country.”

      What has all that to do with your point which I am challenging?

      “Rock, whatever you’re up to on WoS, listen up, the author of Wings over Scotland is not the messiah and he’s not going to win ref 2.”

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s a resource still going after all these years, worth looking at if anyone doesn’t know about it. He’s YES, posts occasionally.

    212. heedtracker says:

      What has all that to do with your point which I am challenging?

      Everything you mad old scroat.

      Or, where do you stand on this issue today?

    213. Sandy says:


      Take a look at the letters page P&J if you can. A missive from a certain Jim Bayne. “Tory policies that benefitted Scotland. Aren’t we Scots being ungrateful
      Is it tongue-in-cheek or is he a bit deranged?

    214. Macart says:


      Pretty much nailed it.

      Best advice for readers is to look for that familiar name/face. You see a name you associate with bad juju, then walk on by. Don’t read them and upset yourself. Move on to what you want to read.

      Reading is meant to be an enjoyable and informative experience and there are some bonny budding writers to be found in these threads. Experts in many fields and disciplines to learn from and enjoy friendly banter along the way.

      We don’t need to spoil our day by reading from those who are here to cause a stink.

    215. Jamie Arriere says:


      A lot of Yoons on social media pumping up the cancer-deprivation report by MacMillan to bash the SNP as usual.

      So, had a read of the report itself to see what degree of inequality in survival rates to see what the extent of the ‘gap’ is – which anybody would expect to exist as people in more deprived areas & on lower incomes cannot afford the diets, lifestyle choices which might help them avoid & survive cancer.

      Anyway, this stat in the Introduction jumped out:

      Of all cancers diagnosed in the five year period 2010-2014, 21.3% were in the most deprived quintile, so marginally higher than might be expected. However, for the same period, the proportion of deaths for the most deprived quintile was 23.6%.

      So, in the most deprived quintile (bottom 20%), accounts for 21.3% of cases & 23.6% of deaths. If it were 20% then deprivation would not be a statistical factor.

      OK, so there may be variances between geographical areas & between different types of cancer, but overall I expected a bigger difference between deprived quintiles to warrant the Yoon bellyaching & front page headlines.

      see Cancer Survival and Deprivation Technical Report [pdf]

    216. Graeme Doig says:

      They’ve backed themselves into a project fear corner. There’s not much left for them to offer us since we have the mostest devolvedest parliament ever already.

      The question is, have they already crossed the line between trying to incite fear and actually looking like complete zoomers? I do know they’ll keep it going to the bitter end.

    217. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock and Heedtracker
      Thanks for stating your cases, I’m not getting drawn in to taking sides. One observation though, it does take two to tango.

      Gotan Project – Diferente

    218. Iain More says:

      So the right wing Yoon nutjobs are going to get loads of notes this week to snort their preferred narcotic and with maybe enough notes left over to smack some woman whilst they are at it on behalf of our Lords and Master in London. Knighthoodery can be too far behind then. Just another week in the nut house that is UKOK.

    219. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      20 February, 2017 at 7:20 pm
      Rock and Heedtracker
      Thanks for stating your cases, I’m not getting drawn in to taking sides. One observation though, it does take two to tango.

      I love the tango. But you see the tory frustration, at the Scots, what wont start voting as they keep ragin at us, Express, Heil Torygraph, BBC Scotland etc

      Graun Sunday, England loves planet toryboy and all that lovely austerity, which has only made the rich, richer. Its an English thing.

      Observer Opinium politics polls
      Tories widen lead over Labour to 13 points in new poll
      Observer/Opinium survey shows support for Conservative party at 40% against 27% for Labour, with Jeremy Corbyn’s approval rating at 17%

      The Tories have opened up a 13-point lead over Labour, according to a poll for The Observer that suggests Jeremy Corbyn’s party has been losing support ahead of next week’s two crucial byelections.

      An online survey of 2,004 UK adults, conducted between 14 and 16 February by Opinium Research finds 40% of voters now back the Conservatives, an increase of three percentage points since a similar poll was conducted at the end of January.

      The Tories’ gains are at the expense of Labour, down three points to 27% since the previous poll.”

      Two countries, two very different politics, one country reigns over t’other, happy and glorious.

      No wonder a scroat like Rock is a tad grouchier than usual

    220. robertknight says:


      AP reports that USA VP Pence’s visit to EU officials in Brussels showed the EU flag next to the flag of the USA, but the version of the Stars’n’Stripes on display had 51 stars instead of 50.

      Do EU officials share the same view as many here that a UK outside the EU and sucking up to Don-Don will simply morph into the 51st State?

      Does PM Mayhem already own such a flag and is waiting for the triggering of Article 50 to fly it above no.10?

      We must be told!

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      Stirring scroat. 😀

    222. bugsbunny says:


      Yes, I noticed that. I bet they were mochade (sp). Just as dirty as his underpants probably.


      The official confederate flag was the southern cross on a white flag with a red stripe furthest from the pole. It was called the bloody banner. That would look good flying next to the “Bloody Apron”. The Butchers variety, of course. Both have a history of slavery and oppression.

    223. heedtracker says:

      Graun/Observer thing on Slab collapse, Saturday not Sunday , its interesting in that Scots and English are clearly voting completely differently, but that UK for the Graun means England again, when it clearly does not. Its not propaganda, more complete bullshit,

      An online survey of 2,004 UK adults, conducted between 14 and 16 February by Opinium Research finds 40% of voters now back the Conservatives, an increase of three percentage points since a similar poll was conducted at the end of January.
      The Tories’ gains are at the expense of Labour, down three points to 27% since the previous poll.”

      Graun links to pollsters,

      Results have been weighted to nationally representative criteria. Full data tables and results are available here.

      Here means here, try finding it

    224. heedtracker says:

      Found it! “Other” means SNP, or Green maybe. Its nice that they say FibDEm and UKIP though.

      The sample is defined from pre-collected registration data containing gender, age (18-34, 35-54, and 55+) and region (North East, North West, Yorkshire and Humberside, East Midlands, West Midlands, East of England, London, South East, South West, Wales, and Scotland) to match the latest published ONS figures

    225. heedtracker says:

      The previous Graun pollsters polling, on UK leaders, who have they left out completely, yup, anyone SNP.

    226. CameronB Brodie says:

      The American Civil War and it’s impact on Anglo-American relations, may shed light on contemporary actors and their actions. As can be expected, the British Establishment generally sided with the Confederate slavers. After all, the British Empire was largely built on the back of slavery. Leopards don’t generally change their spots, so even if social attitudes change underlying institutional philosophies persist.

      Attitudes towards the North and South helped to inform British policy towards America. These views often differed according to social class and from region to region. Historians continue to debate the nature and importance of these divisions. It is usually argued that the British ruling and middle classes took the view that Southern society owed much to British aristocratic and gentlemanly manners and outlook, while the North represented industrial competition with Britain, and remained a bastion of Yankee independence, forever revelling in its overthrow of British rule in the 1770s and 1780s. Those giving their support to the Southern states feared Northern industrial competition and saw widespread democracy as a source of political breakdown and civil strife.

      In contrast, radicals and the lower-middle and working classes firmly supported the democratic, anti-slavery, industrialised North. The Emancipation Proclamation of 1862 helped to galvanise support of the Union among many in Britain, confirming the war as a campaign for democracy and against slavery. The North and the black American population was also conceived in a more sympathetic light, one that drew its energy from the enormous popularity of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin: or, Life Amongst the Lowly (1852). Many thousands of copies were sold in the Britain, and the anti-slavery novel also inspired a range of songs, poems, plays and paintings.

    227. heedtracker says:

      Ultimately Cameron,

      CameronB Brodie says:
      20 February, 2017 at 7:48 pm
      Stirring scroat. ?

      What I’m labouring my point away at this evening is, if a mad old scroat’s on WoS btl, like Rock wanting to chat about anything other than Scottish democracy, look at what likes of The Graun are up to, along with their honest and noble pollster company, also completely blacking out anything and anyone SNP with, “other”?

      Its more than likely than Graun are specifically asked or specifically offered, poll data that really should include the third biggest UK party, but those sneaky creeps are also saying, no thanks, black out anything SNP and Scottish democracy.

    228. Thepnr says:

      This nutty “professor” seems to have relied on this one story since 1999 to get himself and his dubious think tank CEBR in the news and the media keep repeating it.

      There have been links to a couple of additional articles on Wings twitter, so we have 1999, 2001, 2003, 2011 and now 2017. I’m sure if you looked hard enough you’ll probably find that he has said it every year at least since 1999, might just not have been reported.

      Glad to see some journalists at least back in the earlier reports found the CEBR report dubious. Most think tank reports in my view are highly dubious.

      What exactly is a think tank anyway?

      What type of person is employed/part of a think tank?

      How reliable are their forecasts?

      Who pays for them to produce their reports?

      Who benefits from these reports?

      I’m pretty sure that everybody who takes the time to come and read Wings can work out all the answers to these questions by themselves.

      I don’t really see any think tanks as being a problem, the real problem is that there rubbish research is reported as gospel truth by the media. Sunday times does the story yesterday and they all jump on the bandwagon today.

      Absolutely pathetic it is. Fortunately I believe these tactics are nearing the end of their useful life and are having less and less effect on the majority of people.

      The Tories and leader May would be doomed in Scotland without this media support. Boycott their newspapers and don’t pay the telly tax. There are plenty more options for entertainment on the telly that are legal and cheaper than paying the license.

      You can still listen to Kaye with an E legally without a license if that’s your want 🙂

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, the ‘special relationship’ is built around the English Establishment’s dream of a global Anglo-Saxon polite. Feckin white supremacists the lot of them.

      Ever since the United States fought at Britain’s side during World War I, relations between the two countries have grown so close that they habitually act in concert in war and diplomacy. The alliance of what Winston Churchill memorably called the “English-speaking peoples” in World War II is still fresh in many memories. Recent headlines about the cooperation between the two nations in the Balkans demonstrate that the “special relationship” shows no signs of weakening.

    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      I, I, I was teasing mate. 😉

    231. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie

      I know. Internet says there’s an “announcement in the National tomorrow. Hopefully our resident mad old scroat ordered his copy.

    232. ian m says:

      Great post Breeks!!

      David “One country’s ceiling is another country’s floor”

      Not too wee Not too poor not too stupit and not genetically challenged to make big decisions either

      The Express going over the top with their front page I love it

      Scotland are the 14th richest country in the world according to the BBC you know like Norway but with Whisky and, and, and,

    233. Valerie says:

      I think we are getting to the stage, perhaps in a couple of months, that even IF you had doubts about Scotland’s economy and the future, you are going to run screaming to the lifeboat.

      rUK is completely fcked financially, and the only issues which will unfold is the speed and degree of meltdown.

      Those 500+ armoured vehicles ordered abroad, and finishing off in Wales, will start to be battle ready some time this year, and good job too, just in time for the Tories predicting ‘bloodshed’

      This piece from today’s Guardian makes fascinating reading, and plots out what the 27 bloc are making their top priorities. Some of it not surprising, like access to single market, requires freedom of movement.

      However, it certainly dispels the gov’t BS that the EU want trade with this country. Basically, none of them give a shit about a trade deal.

      As I suspected, they no doubt started all their prep in June, last year.

      The Tories house of cards is looking very shaky.

      Buckle up and stock up.

    234. Valerie says:

      Oops, here’s the piece

    235. `So any discussion of Scotland’s economics and independence should take into account the fact that the economy, while important, should surely not be decisive in deciding whether the country should be independent.`

      this is part of what Mr McWilliams wrote today in his opinion piece in the Cebr web site today,

      different nuances than our Fake News batshit press have reported,

    236. louis.b.argyll says:

      How many other gifts do we give to the UK in return for our pocket money?

      Our best and brightest are, by and large, our young people. They understand the importance of self-determination, as they need to fit into their society.

      It is our future that needs respect..not the memories of some propaganda ridden war.

      War war war war war..

    237. heedtracker says:

      Graun says its £6bn extra Europe trade costs and

      Their grip around Scotland’s throat just gets tighter.

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      A little extra concern here for the Clyde yards, a non-BaE design for the T31 GPFF.

      Steller Systems believes that a shipyard-independent, export-focussed, high power team should drive the design through to fruition.

      Basically an OPV with enclosed hangar.

    239. john young says:

      David regardless of the fiscal considerations,regardless of what might or might not be,if we gain independence it will be down to Scots to make the decisions,we are a country of around the same population of say greater Birmingham with all of the necessary wealth potential to create a just and fairer society for all,who could argue against this.

    240. louis.b.argyll says:

      Hmm, think-tanks..

      ‘..your opinion is irrelevant’
      says the media..

      ..’unless your opinion backs up our propaganda..’

      ‘ which case, we’ll promote your suddenly relevant think-tank..’

      Think tanks, think Ruth Davidson. Choose neither.

    241. ScottishPsyche says:

      I’m all for deferring to expertise and experience. I like to know that a person is qualified to do a skilled job or advise on something important but for the love of God why do these people get taken so seriously? Based on everything we know about him, his judgement is flawed.

      His opinion has not wavered despite the changing landscape of UK politics. Why is this news?

    242. Phronesis says:

      When states are unable to supply public goods to their citizens through lack of security, breakdown of public services and infrastructure, corruption, loss of legitimacy, it is known as state failure. An established level of social complexity is lost.

      The economic, social and political shocks may result in violent revolution and threaten the enrichment of the ruling elite because one requires social stability to protect economic activity.

      What is the answer- more armed police on the streets, tanks and water cannons to disperse the poor and needy , high walls to keep them out and expanding prisons to contain them?

      Or could a peaceful, bloodless and progressive evolution of Scotland’s political will with a social contract of human dignity and human rights between the electorate and the elected at its core be the answer to the current crisis of democracy.

      Joseph Stiglitz- a Nobel Prize winner for Economics-who appears to have calibrated his moral compass correctly had this to say about Scotland’s bid for independence;

      ‘the greater risk for Scotland is to stay in the UK and for the UK to leave the EU… the standard of living for most Scots could fall with cutbacks in UK public education and health …

      The difficult question that Scotland has to face is thus not about arcane issues about monetary arrangements or economies of scope, about the minutiae of the short run gains and losses, but whether Scotland’s future – its shared vision and values, a shared vision and values that has increasingly departed from those dominant south of the Border – will be better achieved through -independence’

    243. heedtracker says:

      BBC Scotland

      Match of the Day Live
      Live coverage of Sutton United v Arsenal in the fifth round of the FA Cup.

      What the what is wrong with Scots? No just because its a terrible game.

    244. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , loved that!

    245. louis.b.argyll says:

      Phronesis, yes indeed..

      Basically, we (Scottish People) decide what to ring-fence.

      Look how far into shame misery the Tories will reach.

    246. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Rev, when you first saw that headline did you rub your hands in glee at yet another example of atrocious journalism, or did you sink your head into your hands and groan at yet another example of atrocious journalism?

      They need us SO much, it’s obvious. I feel for them, from the heart of my bottom.

    247. Tam Jardine says:

      Scot Finlayson

      I read the report and Douglas McWilliams gleeful tweets. He builds his case as all the yoons do on GERS. Stats showing the state of Scotland’s economy within the union are simply extrapolated and bingo: “facts” on the state of an independent Scotland’s finances are magically created.

      That expenditure and revenue could or would be different does not seem to register- it is just nice and neat to think everything would be just the same. It is taken as a given that there would be spending cuts on an unimaginable scale and indeed that is McWilliams plan (which he appears to relish).

      Defence is a good example of an area that would change significantly on indy. At the moment we (Scotland) are allocated spending of £3030m and yet have virtually no defensive navy in our waters- just an expensive doomsday weapon. We spend almost the highest in Europe per capita, as a percentage of GDP or as a percentage of overall spending yet airbases, barracks, naval vessels and troops stationed here are at the lowest level in my lifetime and set to reduce further.

      If you take it as a given that spending priorities and therefore tax revenues in this area and in others would be unrecognisable, and that the division of assets and liabilities will be subject to negotiations the straightforward extrapolation of spending and revenues post indy is just idiotic.

      It is how you arrive at the conclusion that the largest oil producer in the EU, a net exporter, a country with a GDP most of Europe would bite your hand off for is one of the weakest economies in Europe, is heavily subsidised and would be almost the last country anyone would ever want in their club.

    248. JLT says:

      Osborne …seriously …third world?!?

      If Scotland walks from the UK Union, and the UK decides to punish Scotland harshly, then it will have a major impact on Sterling and the rUK economy in general …a serious impact. Apart from the fact, that Scotland is literally England’s main trading partner, any decision made in deciding not to buy Scottish goods will most definitely have a major impact.

      Firstly, any business in England that has a fair portion of its sales in Scotland would have to find an alternative market quick to cover the losses if it decided not to trade with Scotland (and this becomes much harder post-Brexit since EU nations will probably hit England with tariffs for imported goods). Apart from deciding to chop off your own right arm in the process …what is to stop any sensible English firm deciding it could hoover up MASSIVELY by stepping into those fields where other companies have walked. You can almost hear the ‘Ker-CHING’ right now!

      Secondly, loss of revenue from Scotland has an impact not only on the Treasury, but also on jobs. Less revenue usually means that staff are either made redundant or take a hit in wages. This has major implications for the local market place as people have less money in their pockets. With access to the EU a lot harder, it would mean that companies down South would be carving each other up to find business. It could almost be said, that it would be a race to the bottom. Sure Scotland could suffer at the same time, but since we’re aiming to join EFTA at least, and thus get into the EU through the back door, we will at least have other markets to turn too. For the rUK, they will be primarily trading with other continents half way around the planet.

      Thirdly, it would also mean …literally …a return to the period of 1700-1707 where we then get a tit-for-tat situation. As the rUK (primarily England) obstinately refuses to trade with Scotland, our nation then imposes its own tariffs …on electricty, water and on food and drink. It might even decide to cut back on oil production (because after all, when you’ve never made a penny from the oil revenues, why would you drill for a nation of 60 odd million when in a new indy-Scotland, you now only look after only your home nation of 5 million). This means Westminster would have to import more oil to sustain the rUK economy.

      Fourthly, it could get even nastier as Scotland orders the subs out of Faslane immediately. This has serious implications for the rUK when it comes to finding new homes for the subs and trying to protect the position on the UN Security Council Seat.

      This last one alone is enough to put the fear into Westminster. So simply put, for the rUK to take the huff and refuse to trade with Scotland is simply cuttings one’s nose off to spite one’s face. In all reality, Osborne knows this and is talking nonsense. It’s a piece of nonsensical Project Fear drivel.

      But if he wants to call Scotland’s bluff …well …so be it …let’s return to that period of 1700-1707 and see what happens. The only problem is, he may find that the result the next time round might not be so favorable; economically or to the rUK’s status. It’s so stupid, that it beggars belief.

    249. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I’m a supporter of independence but…

      … I quite like the outbursts of “Prof” McBinge.

      No, seriously. =laugh=

      The Loonionists don’t seem to have learnt much if they are still over-egging the “economic armageddon” fable. (In a rag owned by a porno king?) I mean, really, it’s become laughable. High comedy. Anti-propaganda.

      The more of this lunatic rubbish the better, I say!

      (I reckon the fake prof must write these doomladen tales of woe “the day after the night before”. It curiously reminds me somewhat of “Confessions of a justified sinner”.)

      A more serious issue though is the proliferation of grandiose-sounding so-called “thinktanks” like “CEBR” that are routinely wheeled out by the yoon MSM to “prove” we’re heading for meltdown after independence. I mean, is there anyone else in this particular outfit besides Tory McWhatsisname? And where does its funding come from anyway? Smells just like a rentaquote “front” to me.

      It’s time the indy movement had some proper thinktanks of its own (like CommonSpace is not doing, to its great credit) and/or commissions some fair-minded thinktank with proper credentials, to give everyone a far better insight as to what independence might really signify. It can’t be that hard, can it? Decent comparisons with other European countries with similar populations and/or per-capita GDPs?

      Then go on the front foot with the positive story instead of having to react to all this scaremongering negative pish…

    250. K1 says:

      I’ve been watching the A50 debate in the HoL…

      Get a load of old Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Libdem)…who is the only one I have heard so far mention Scotland, many of the others including Foulkes at least stuck to the issues regarding Brexit but boy did Bruce go right off track and into the hedges on Scotland…see if you can spot how many lies he told right from the off…he’s a sight to behold and frothing…yoontastic…

      Scroll to his name on the list on the right he’s at 21.49.15

    251. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

      Ronnie Anderson 8.46pm

      Brillaint Ronnie, we need more impulsive, spur of the moment original thinking so we are not a carbon copy of IndyRef1.

      This is our very own Banksy or should we call him our very own “Bonnie Banksy”

      Boom! Boom!

    252. MJT says:

      It’s a clever tactic; give people the fear about what might happen, and it will distract some folks away from what is happening and what has happened.

      The pound crashed, that happened. Food prices have gone up, that happened. In farmfoods three bell peppers (a very healthy nutritious food) were 99p,now £1.19; in Iceland a bag of Onions were 60p now 65p; in Home Bargains a bag of 5 bananas 65p now a bag of four bananas. Morrisons were wanting £2.50 a kg of Scottish New spuds, last i was in there.

      Loads more examples. Farmfoods: Used to be by two bags of frozen veg (sweetcorn, peas, spinach) get one free, now by three get one free. Fruit and veg went up pretty much across the board. Frozen forest fruits, rasberries, (smaller bag bigger price) tomatoes, apples, pears. If you’re poor and you want to eat healthy it just got harder, more expensive.

      I know food prices tend to rise, but usually in dribs and drabs, but this is all across the board in my neighborhood.
      The pound crashed, the purchase price of foreign imported goods stayed the same in Euros or whatever. It happened, it’s happening. Look awaw. Or pay attention…and die a wee bit inside…or take the knowledge and anger and reinvigorate.

      What’s happeing with the staff in carehomes? Local Authority Budget cuts, staff getting hours cut, less actuall care for elderly. Happening in a couple of months in some care homes.

    253. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oops! Non-trivial correction to my previous posting:

      “like CommonSpace is doing, to its creat credit”

      (Whew, note to self: proof-read more carefully next time before hitting that “submit” button. And apologies to all, not least CommonSpace.)

    254. K1 says:

      Have to add the next speaker right after him compliments Bruce’s comments on human rights but pointedly states immediately after that: ‘I won’t engage with his comments on the internal affairs of Scotland’.

      Seriously embarrassing stuff.

    255. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Reluctant Nationalist.

      I like the cut of your jib, typing about what you type, I mean. You have a fine style. My jury’s still out on your Rock connection but the content of your typing can, possibly, clear up that wee issue.

    256. Dr Jim says:


      Osborne’s on the sniffy, or the Trams, could be prescription vikodin for his mental pain

      Whatever it is I’ve seen it before on him, eyes like a nipped frog

    257. Effijy says:

      Daily Express Hires Violent Prostitute Hiring Drug Addict
      as to be their Economic Champion.

      Do they pay him, or pay his fines for assault, hire a lady of the night for him,or give him a gram of cocaine?

      Just the right type of paper for a man of this calibre.

    258. Gary45% says:

      Sorry been away all weekend, so apologies if this has already been written.
      Fake news = the empires new weapon to bolster their own misgivings.
      The empire has been found wanting for their own inability to actually report news, so anyone else now reporting REAL news will be simply “dissed” as reporting “Fake News”.
      It really is that simple.
      Expect WoS to be included in the Fake News bracket.
      Had live TV in the hotel, ended up watching Top Gear on Dave, as the other 100 odd channels were shite.
      Thank F8CK I don’t pay for the Empire licence anymore, the EBC should be done for fraud.

    259. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Hullo Brian! My jib? No, YOUR jib, sir. C’est magnifique.

      I just jumped in to that Rock scenario heroically windmilling my arms without any prior knowledge of the long-running BTL fandango that he was the centre of. Now that I’m better informed, it’s not something I’ll comment on again. Although I do think we’re stronger for his antithetic presence, what wiv me being a bit of a dour Hegellian at times.

      But best to keep an open mind. I could be a GCHQ asset set loose aroond the WoS hoose for all you know.

    260. harry mcaye says:

      The National front cover tomorrow is a bit of an embarrassment to the independence movement. A picture of a Trump protester holding a sign calling him a “fake tanned fanny”. They tend to get their covers right but this is a huge misjudgement.

    261. Sinky says:

      The National would be better doing a cover on Five Reasons Why an Independent Scotland will be one of the world’s wealthiest nations

    262. CameronB Brodie says:

      The National’s front cover tomorrow…

      Check me out correcting folk. Sorry Harry. 😉

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      harry mcaye
      Have to agree with your view though.

    264. Valerie says:

      Sky news there blithely reporting public funding to be cut to Olympic sports, and Team GB has now peaked!

      Of course, para Olympics have no chance.

    265. Grouse Beater says:

      Want a short break from entertaining Sententious Dave?

      Matt Damon does a Jason Bourne in China:

    266. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Reluctant Nationalist.

      I take it we’ll see you at the Wings’ stall at Pacific Quay on 29th March, to meet us actual Wingers?

    267. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Reluctant Nationalist.

      Sorry – 26th March.

    268. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Grouse, that’s a great review of a film I also thought was slightly shonky; particularly liked your boardroom scene.

      Gonnae stick the boot in to John Wick 2? I’m mystified as to its popularity and acclaim – it’s so bad that it’s bad. Watching pigeon-toed Reeves hoof his ungainly frame through fight scenes so clumsily made me silly.

    269. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Steady on, Brian! I’ve only just got into this lark, so there’ll be slim chance of being at a meet anytime that soon. Eventually, though. Aye. Next time. Or maybe the next time. Or maybe the next time. For sure.

    270. Meg merrilees says:

      Trump debate:

      Many people demonstrating outside the House.

      Here’s a highlight of speakers from SCOTLAND.

      Alex made the point that he is actually the only person in the House of Commons who has actually negotiated with Trump and issued the warning that you must not negotiate from a position of weakness especially with him. He is not a stupid man. (Speech starts at 37.12 minutes in.)

      Naz Shah stated that “as a muslim she is not the enemy of this country” and we must not honour this president. (Around 1hour 03.20 minutes in.)

      Kirsten Oswald (1hour 18:40) ” our job is to shine a light and stand tall against Trump’s racism”.

      Sir Edward Leigh Con. says it is overstating to accuse Trump of racism and mysogny.

      Roger Mullin ( 1hour 41mins) Eisenhower only offered an informal visit in 1959 – a 5 star general and the commander of Nato. Trump has only spread division and instability. A grubby and despicable manoeuvre by this PM.

      Carol Monaghan ( 1hour 56:20 minutes) A pandora’s box of hate has been opened. Dark rhetoric is now being openly expressed. We should show a better example to our young people – of tolerance, respect and anti-bullying.

      Alasdair Carmichael ( 2 hours 2:20 minutes) 1 week into a 4 year term of office – if we have offered a state visit this time, what will we offer for future deals – the Crown Jewels? TM rushing towards a presidency that the rest of the world is running away from. Torture a matter of policy – we abhor torture.

      Dawn Butler (2 hours 11;30 minutes ) Lab Brent we don’t want to be seen to be on the wrong side of history. Trump’s message is not about togetherness.

      Tasmina ( 2 hours 19:45 minutes) sexism never acceptable, Trump does not follow in the footsteps of the giants of American history. His actions do not uphold the values of the American constitution. Going down a dangerous path when he says its the West against Islam.

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      More on the ‘special’ relationship. It should be remembered that much of British textile industry was reliant on American cotton. Victory for the north ment the end of slavery in the USA and the supply of cheap raw material.

      Historians reveal secrets of UK gun-running which lengthened the American civil war by two years
      Investigations by a leading Scottish maritime historian have succeeded, for the first time, in locating the main secret British headquarters of the American Civil War Confederate government’s transatlantic gun-running operation.

      Both the United States and Confederate governments also engaged espionage and other clandestine activities in foreign countries. In June 1861 Confederate Secretary of the Navy Stephen Mallory sent Commander James Bulloch to Liverpool, England, a major shipbuilding center. Bulloch’s mission was to secretly buy or build warships that would capture or destroy merchant vessels flying the U.S. flag. A major challenge for Bulloch was to avoid violating Great Britain’s Foreign Enlistment Act, which made it unlawful to “fit out” a warship for use in a conflict in which Britain was neutral. An English law firm advised him that so long as a ship was not armed in British territory, it was legal to build it in Britain, an interpretation eventually upheld by British courts.[20]

      Bulloch’s first effort set a pattern for future success. Hiring a Liverpool firm to build a steam ship based on plans for a Royal Navy gunboat, he spread the cover story that it was destined for the Italian government, and named the Otero. The Otero sailed, with a British captain and crew, to Nassau in the Bahamas, where it was secretly armed with cannon from a supply ship and formally commissioned as the Confederate States Ship (CSS) Florida, placed under the command of a Confederate naval officer, and began a successful career raiding Union commerce. Bulloch’s second project was the construction and arming of the CSS Alabama, the most successful Confederate commerce raider of the Civil War. After construction in a shipyard near Liverpool under the cover name Enrica, she surreptitiously left British waters for the Portuguese Azores, where she was armed from a supply ship and commissioned in the Confederate Navy under the command of Captain Raphael Semmes. Of eight Confederate warships built to attack Union maritime commerce, six were constructed in Great Britain. Together they destroyed 284 Union merchant vessels worth $25 million. [21]

    272. Gordon Anderson says:

      Seems the UK must be dragging us down.

    273. Meg merrilees says:

      I’ll never understand the way a Conservative brain works.

      To hear MP’s praising him was obnoxious.

      Listening to the Minister summing up the Trump debate but the use of ‘Democracy’ as the argument to justify his visit against the democracy of listening to the views of the people of this country is absurd, when the debate is taking place with a greek chorus of protestors outside…

      How far to the right is this pendulum going to swing before sense returns?

    274. Dr Jim says:

      Why am I not surprised at Tories not thinking Trump was in any way racist or sexist or any other kind of “ist”

      Were any of them practising their bending over and lip pursing while they were saying this stuff

      Getting their tongues limbered up for the Arse licking I expect

      He’ll be getting a different view of Arses when he comes to Scotland, we’re experts at that

      Kilts ..Up!

    275. K1 says:

      The more you watch debates like these Meg, with such erudite insightful and principled speeches and stances by our reps and those from other constituencies and then the ‘minister’ stands up at the end with his ‘scripted’ response saying ‘tough shit’ it’s happening.

      The more your realise what an utter fucking sham the whole thing is.

      Apparently we hand our reps our sovereignty and they are trumped by Westminsters parliamentary sovereignty. That’s how it works dontchaknow….it’s a ‘parliamentary democracy’ we live in, and we are outnumbered by their parliamentarians every single time.

      It’s a fake democracy we live in.

    276. Richardinho says:

      The mind of the professional yoon is a fascinating object of study. They are probably rarer than you might think: You have to find someone who knows something about Scotland – and therefore is likely Scottish themselves – but who also has no qualms whatsoever at trashing the country whenever they are required to by their paymasters.

      I suppose they people may just be sociopaths, the same type who would burglarise your house without a bit of remorse, and I guess a lot of the rest have some other kind of mental illness.

      It’s not surprising therefore that Douglas McWilliams turns out to be an actual crack smoker. What would be more surprising if one of these people didn’t turn out to have some sort of serious personality disorder of this kind.

    277. Still Positive says:

      Meg merrilees @ 12.42

      I was thinking that this afternoon watching the debate.

      They are total idealogues – Tory way is the only way. Even if it sucks up to racist, misogynist regimes wherever they are. Pathetic.

      Our SNP MPs did us proud – Alex Salmond but particularly the women.

      Kirsten Oswald said for the first time she is worried about her mixed-race children. She is married to the cousin of the guy who used to own our local shop – his brother-on-law now owns it and is definitely a ‘Yesser’.

    278. sarah says:

      O/T 1 day left for iscot’s phase 3 indiegogo and over 40% short…

    279. Valerie says:


      I just watched – Free State of Jones, starring Matthew McConnaughy. Based on a true story.

      Fascinating film about a white man in the South deserting the Army, realising he was fighting for ‘their cotton’.

      Newton Knight became involved with local black men and tried to support them in their fight for freedom and the vote.

      Great film, if very sad too.

    280. DerekM says:

      Third world country ye will be doomed it might take a while but ye will be doomed.

      I am surprised they have not invented the fourth world country so we can be it or a fifth or better still that we will fold up geometrically until we disappear into subspace all screaming noooo i should never have voted for indy.

      Man you can smell the fear,caught in a political trap that has been in the making for over 20 years.

      Where is your plan they say lmao

      The second westminster fell into the trap was when they gave us indyref1,it was a big bit of cheese to tempt the greedy rats inside the tory party,they seen the SNP referendum bounce and thought we will have some of that on both sides of the insane loony party and pitched into an EU referendum.

      The plan was Houdini Dave would win and the UK would remain in the EU cutting off our escape route,it was a good plan only one flaw.

      The flaw was he forgot that we cybernats were already referendum veterans and already doing our thing to the English electorate,and considering the press and government are always bad mouthing the EU and telling stonking lies anyway,it was quite an easy task.

      I remember well that day,i punched the air in joy and about put my hip out celebrating,the very first trigger and we had somehow managed to get the very result we needed.

      I guess we kind of wrecked the UK by increasing their daily intake of fake news in England,i have to put my hand up i told some mighty whoppers to the UKIP brexit freaks.

      I sometimes wonder if they have a frontal cortex or if they only operate on the pituitary gland.

    281. Ken500 says:

      IScot should put up a bank account and they would get more money. Do they have one?

    282. Ken500 says:

      The National should have an article about the reasons an Indepenent Scotland Scotland would be wealthy. Publish the article.

      There is a £40Million wind turbine project off their coast of Aberdeen. Funded by a EU funds. The fishing industry is getting an £80Million fund in Scotland from the EU. The EU spends £Billion supporting fishing.

      May and her Gov are a sham. The Trump debate is a diversion. Thatcher would not have tried some of the public spending cuts on NHS and the elderly. The Tories are killing off the elderly. There has been an unexpected increase in elderly death caused by Tory cuts.

    283. Nana says:

      Pension changes could cost 11m Britons thousands of pounds

      UK economy would take a £328m hit if all migrant workers stayed at home for a day

      What the EU27 want: Brexit red lines from the other side of the table

    284. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: Good Morning, Thank you

      Links glorious Links concise and not clustered I’m just in the mood to read them quiet and unflustered. Kettle’s on! 🙂

      Peace Always

    285. David Caledonia says:

      Scotland is a rich country, trouble is all the wealth thats generated goes to the treasury, anyone who thinks scotland does not pay its way is either a liar or a fool
      How long would you keep a lodger in your house that did not pay full rent, not very long i bet, yet in scotland people are led to believe that its ok, your not paying your way, but its ok, we will keep and feed you even thought you never pay enough rent.
      All the people of scotland have to do is this…. VOTE YES the next time, go on, you know it makes sense

    286. heedtracker says:

      Something for the proud Scot buts to chew on.

      Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
      Johnny ?@JohnnyDundee 7h7 hours ago
      If its No in Indyref2,SNP should stand down & let Tories get on with it. No more SNP mitigating Tory rule for Scots. One Nation Tory Britain

    287. Nana says:


      Good morning, nice way to start the day with a rhyme.

      I don’t have a sub to the times, so archived what I can. What could be missing from the headline.

      Police to investigate Glasgow L____r corruption

      The herald turning RBS logo blue to yellow. Sometimes I wonder if the Scottish office is keeping this rag afloat.

      ordonaryScotsforindy hashtag been running for a couple of days

    288. Fred says:

      @ Cameron Brodie, the Confederate gun-runners story is told in a book about the Clyde’s input, these fast ships paid for themselves in a couple of runs, contraband cotton out/ guns in! Forget the name of the book kid, not that old.

    289. Fred says:

      @ Cameron, the book is “Clyde Built! by Eric Graham.

    290. Paula Rose says:

      Good morning all – one day left to fund the media that does work for us…

    291. Brian Powell says:


      “Police to investigate Glasgow L____r corruption”

      Extraordinary not mentioning Labour, but my guess is, in expectation of SNP taking over, by the time this comes to prosecution or release of the result they can then insert ‘Glasgow SNP Council has …..’

    292. DerekM says:

      @ Nana

      Thanks for the links Nana especially this one 🙂

      You have to check this one out everybody 🙂

      Maybe not you yoons would not want to be accused of giving you a bad day lol

    293. heedtracker says:

      An auld familiar stand up. What ever happened to Shorthouse and McDougal anyway. “Data will always guide you to win.”

    294. Ken500 says:

      Wood Group profits are down worldwide.

      A 40Million EU funded offshore wind project is being constructed off Aberdeen.

      A £3/4Bilion essential AWPR is being constructed for the most polluted City in Scotland.

    295. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      What the EU27 want: Brexit red lines from the other side of the table

      Fascinating. I would summarise the EU’s red lines as …

      – Link between single market and free movement is top
      – The ‘old’ members see unity of the EU as important
      – The ‘new’ members want EU citizens’ rights preserved in the UK

      …. and ….

      – Retaining trade isn’t a high priority
      – Budget fair deal isn’t a high priority

      Clearly, if the EU sees free movement, unity, and citizens’ rights as important BUT ongoing trade as less important, agreement seems impossible given the UK side see things exactly the opposite!

    296. heedtracker says:

      Another familiar auld display of pro SLabour The Graun propaganda.

      PFI catastrophe in Scotland, is all on SLabour but rancid The Graun do not want you to know that.

    297. Sinky says:

      Salmond holding up copy of The Daily Telegraph attacked for attacking “Yoon Media”. Although the Scotsman Herald are quick to attack the SNP they are paragons of virtue compared to the branch offices of the London presss … something like the Slab girls and boys.

    298. galamcennalath says:


      Re …

      Abolish the tv licence, it shouldn’t be a legal requirement.

      I believe the TV licence should be abolished, removed and not a legal requirement. It should be included through your provider for free. Tv is expensive enough without the added extra worry of £130+ A year.

      While completely agree with the main demand and the first sentence, what are the second two sentences on about?

      “provider” and “TV is expensive enough”, I can only assume mean Sky or cable company?

      If so, I completely fail to see what those opt in services have to do with the issue of TV licencing. You need a licence to watch non subscription TV, whether you opt in to additional services is irrelevant.

    299. Nana says:

      @Brian Powell

      Aye Brian, would not surprise me one bit.


      Re licence fee petition. I too wondered about that, it’s poorly worded but I signed it anyway.

      By the by I did not start the petition.

    300. DerekM says:

      @ galamcennalath

      If you sum it up the EU will stick by its founding principles and not budge an inch on A50,there is only two positions available for A50 in or out.

      Out means out and they will have to renegotiate trade deals at a rate worse than they have just now.

      If you do not pay the fees into the club then you are certainly not allowed to play for cheaper than the members.

      I thought that concept the tories would get.

    301. stu mac says:

      The Guardian actually – surprisingly – has comments open in its latest PFI scandal (but let’s not mention Labour) article. Not surprisingly BTL is full of plenty of mentions of Labour and their part in the scandal. Wonder how long before comments are closed.

    302. Daisy Walker says:

      Headtracker at 0858.

      Thanks for posting that. Anyone who hasn’t seen it should. Very, very informative.

      And once we get past the anger, break it down into its core message and steal it.

      Twitter to break the news with short sharp messages. Facebook for the slow discussion. What was it he said, teams on twitter and Facebook. And the main time for bombarding Facebook was from 8pm to 10pm.

      Extensive research at the start – 30% yes, 40% no, 30% undecided, but who wanted stability, solidarity, no change.

      Its our campaign now. I’m going to watch it again.

      Best wishes to all.

    303. stu mac says:

      Oh.. and BTL on the Guardian page is the following link:

      Haven’t seen a reference to this in Herald or Hootsman yet. Can’t be bothered to check other papers but would be surprised to see anything.

    304. Nana says:

      Mundell lied on bbcqt. Here are the facts

      here he is again looking & sounding stupid,

    305. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath and Nana

      Pretty reasonable article and the conclusions not unexpected.

      The four freedoms are the cornerstone of the EU and I’d guess that protecting those freedoms comes quite high on the list of priorities for those states.

      I very much doubt Ms May will get her wish list and the UK will learn that other countries have their own economic, constitutional and geo political interests.

      May, of course, will use the press to aleviate the face slap. Britain against Johnny Furriner stuff, bulldog spirit, bunting and fleg wavy headlines, that sorta thing. How and ever, nothing will cover the fact that negotiations are not going to go the UKs way.

      They won’t be over and done with in two years. People are going to find ‘fiscal reset’ actually means economic catastrophy. On an ‘in your livingroom’ level, they’re going to find prices, bills, costs going through marked and hefty increases. More people will be driven into poverty and the suffering will spread.

      They are also going to find that the ‘great repeal’ bill and the proposed British bill of rights may not live up to their expectations, but most definitely down to ours. That their divided society is already way too far along a particularly dark and regressive road.

      None of this is the choice of Mr or Mrs Johnny Furriner, but that of the UK electorate. That reasoning however, won’t be listened to right now or for some time to come.

      The fault. The responsibility for that choice though? That lies elsewhere. It’ll take a few years right enough. There’s a lot of spin, deflection and misdirection yardage left in blaming everyone, but yourself to come, but when Mr and Mrs UK finally works that one out? I wouldn’t want to be a politician or a meeja type on a bet.

      The reaction by the public in England in Wales will be loud and all over the place.

      We can thankfully choose a different road.

    306. heedtracker says:

      Daisy Walker,

      Where, who and how did Shorthouse get these highly sophisticated campaign techniques though? I’m guessing the burping schlub didn’t invent them himself.

    307. yesindyref2 says:

      An article in the Herald about Gordon Macintyre-Kemp of Business for Scotland about his previous company.

      Absolutely total ignorance of how to read a Companies House “Total exemption small company accounts” which has a balance sheet, but no profit and loss. I actually had to check my own accounts to make sure – you start to doubt yourself!

      But yeah, you don’t have to show the P&L if your turnover is less than £4.5 million. And the balance sheet doesn’t show turnover, just assets, debitors, creditors and shareholders funds. Net worth, in other words.

    308. Valerie says:

      ‘re Glasgow corruption

      Both the Times and Sun Scottish editions running same story.

      They mention Labour in body, and link it to North Lanarkshire, as being about the same issue, contracts of high value going to known Labour rellies. Contractor mentioned, Mears.

      Been referred to Police for investigation.

    309. Brian Powell says:


      Of course had it been an SNP Council it would have been in the headlines.

    310. Manny Singh says:

      Scotland is rich in resources like Whisky, Renewables, Tourism, Financial Services, Food and Drink, Fishing, IT. Farming, Manufacturing, Creative Industries, Construction, Global Transport, Engineering, Medical Research, Oil and Gas.
      Scotland represents just 8.3% of the UK population. Remember that number 8.3%
      We have the following share of UK resources –
      32% Land area
      61% Sea area
      90% Surface fresh water
      65% North Sea natural gas production
      96.5% North Sea crude oil production
      47% Open cast coal production
      81% Coal reserves at sites not yet in production
      62% Timber production (green tonnes)
      46% Total forest area (hectares)
      92% Hydro electric production
      40% Wind, wave, solar production
      60% Fish Landings (total by Scottish vessels)
      55% Fish Landings (total from Scottish waters)
      30% Beef herd (breeding stock)
      20% Sheep herd (breeding flock)
      9% Dairy herd
      10% Pig herd
      15% Cereal holdings (hectares)
      20% potato holdings (hectares)
      All with 8.3% of the population!
      We also have a…
      17 billion pound construction industry
      13 billion food and drink industry
      10 billion business services industry
      9.3 billion chemical services industry
      A 9.3 billion tourism industry
      7 billion financial services industry
      5 billion aeroservice industry
      4.5 billion pound whisky exports industry
      3.1 billion pound life sciences industry
      Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports
      Gold– one working mine in production last month. Second mine or gold field, found by Aberdeen University, This field has been extended to 200 square miles in Aberdeenshire
      There are very few countries in the WORLD that rival Scotland’s resources per head and in such rich diversity. We absolutely, unequivocally can be an extremely successful independent country. Away from Westminster, and European Rule.

    311. Fred says:

      National front page excellent, it’s a newspaper!

    312. louis.b.argyll says:

      Had to delete my comment there, going for a lurkers lie down.

    313. Luigi says:

      Meg merrilees says:

      21 February, 2017 at 12:42 am

      I’ll never understand the way a Conservative brain works.

      It’s very simple really. Think money.

      Not a simple appreciation of money, not anxiety about money. No, it’s much deeper faith than that. This is a total infatuation, fanatical religious worship of the stuff.

      Understand the Tory values? When you boil it down, there is only one.

      The root of all evil, indeed. 🙂

    314. Capella says:

      Re the Canary article linked to above. I was reading the University of Kent Rendition Project report on this issue. Can be downloaded here:

      It makes grim reading and it is well past time that the British involvement in rendition and torture is exposed and Jack Straw and Tony Blair held to account.

      Also, Note 4 deals with NI:
      4. One of the architects of the CIA’s torture programme, Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee, explicitly referred to the use of these techniques in Northern Ireland when providing legal justification for torture in the ‘war on terror’ (Bybee, 2002a). Similarities in practice followed this authorisation, although the question of how torture techniques are transmitted historically, geographically and jurisdictionally is complex (see Rejali, 2007).

      Nonetheless, it may be possible to trace connections in this context. Stress positions used in Northern Ireland, such as forced standing for hours and days on end, were deployed later by the CIA, although to even greater extremes. Likewise, methods used to disorient, humiliate and intimidate prisoners in the RDI programme bear striking resemblance to practices established in Northern Ireland.

      The use of hooding, shackling, sensory deprivation, intimate physical examinations for no obvious medical or security reason, and methods to disguise the location of detention sites characterise both cases (Cobain, 2012: 141–142; PACE, 2006: paras 84–87). Mock drowning, similar to the use of water torture by the CIA, was employed at police stations in Belfast.

      In many cases, and in a clear parallel to ‘war on terror’ torture, interrogators and guards often went beyond that which had been authorised. Prisoners were beaten or burned with cigarette lighters, and threatened with more severe torture or even murder (Cobain, 2010)

      The Rendition Project is based at Kent University:

    315. vlad (not that one ) says:

      @DerekM 8:55 Thanks for the links Nana especially this one: You have to check this one out everybody.

      I had a wee cursory look, and, oh dear. Grauniad just cannot get things right.

      “Preserve EU citizens’ rights in the UK” is shown as a top priority for Portugal/Spain in one diagram but greyed out as lower than 4th in another.

    316. gus1940 says:


      During the lengthy horrendous battle for Aleppo western politicians and their media fan club shrieked from the rooftops about the horrendous bombing and shelling of civilians carried out by the Russians and The Syrian Government accompanied by a daily deluge of horrific movie and stills coverage all of which resulted in a prolonged clamour that they were guilty of Obscene War Crimes.

      Starting while the Aleppo battle was still raging we have the battle for Mosul although until very recently this received minimal media coverage.

      The ISIS controlled city which has a population in the hundreds of thousands is being attacked by that old convenient word ‘a coalition’.

      This coalition consists of The Iraqui Army and Air Force, US and UK Special Forces and the US and UK Air Forces.

      This lot have been and still are shelling and bombing the hell out of Mosul and no doubt killing and maiming many innocent civilians but funnily enough all media coverage is of the attacking forces with zilch coming from inside the city – how convenient.

      Does anybody else see a degree of similarity between the battles for Aleppo and Mosul?

      How come that The Russian and Syrian Governments are guilty of War Crimes and the attack by the above ‘coalition’ is somehow seen as being righteous and nowhere near being a War Crime?

      Surely the reporting of these 2 battles is one of the most monumental examples of political and media hypocrisy of all time.

    317. gus1940 says:


      According to today’s Scotsman Ruth Davidson/Harrison is accusing the dastardly cybernats of calling her a ‘Fat Tory’.

      Surely any other description would fall into the category of an’Alternative Fact’.

    318. Jack Murphy says:

      Thanks Nana at 7:42am today for all your links.
      In vain,I searched Westminster Parliament Archive TV for the Archived debate on President Trump’s State Visit.
      My search was hampered by Committee this and Committee that,Chamber this and Chamber that.
      Their site is a nightmare to navigate!

      Guess what? I thought of Wings and quickly found a link:-

    319. ScottieDog says:

      Oooohhhhh I feel unclean having just ventured onto the Scotsman website for the first time in two years. Just wiping myself down.

      I had a wee glimpse of the McWilliams article. Of course we have to remember that the ‘respected’ economic think tanks of the UK are the neoliberal flat earth type.

      They aren’t so much biased its more that they are in the economic sense, WRONG.

      “Because of Keynesian multiplier effects, there would need to be cuts of about 15 per cent of GDP. That’s roughly on the scale of what has happened in Greece, which has led to a fall in GDP on a quarter.”?The prediction comes as pro-independence campaigners predicted a second independence referendum will be called within weeks.”

      He talks about Keynes whilst predicating monetarism.

      The UK is a case in point that any attempt made by the govt to ‘save’ at the aggregate level, reduces the amount of money in the economy and actually reduces future tax revenue, resulting in a higher deficit tomorrow.
      Spending = income.

      Thought about posting on Scotsman then saw the comments section. Oh my word.

    320. Clapper57 says:


      Hey guys scam telephone call warning

      Received automated message on phone from HMRC stating been trying to get hold of me as they are bringing lawsuit against me…then says press 1.

      Please note this is a SCAM ….please warn vulnerable, elderly relatives/neighbours .

    321. sensibledave says:

      Luigi 10:55 am

      You wrote: “It’s very simple really. Think money…. Not a simple appreciation of money, not anxiety about money. No, it’s much deeper faith than that. This is a total infatuation, fanatical religious worship of the stuff.”

      Understand the Tory values? When you boil it down, there is only one.”

      …. just in case yours was a serious comment, I will respond.

      If that is what you believe Luigi, then I feel sorry for you. I am sure you know many tory voters and and that you probably count a number of them as your friends (unless you are a complete weirdo – which is possible of course).

      The vast majority of folk in Scotland and England (and indeed most other western democracies) hold very similar values. Politics comes into matters over an individual’s view of how best achieve a goal (one that most agree is a goal).

      Whether it be creating jobs, having more homes, a better NHS, better education system, etc. I suspect that the vast majority of folk want to achieve the same thing.

      The differences lay in views on how best achieve those aims. We have had many discussions here on Wings where various big issues have been debated. Getting more tax from the wealthy is the goal of every party I believe. Simpletons will go down the “soak the rich” route because it is dog- whistle stuff guaranteed to garner support from “right-on” lefties – regardless of the fact that anyone who actually knows anything about the subject, knows that the opposite result will often be the outcome. The SNP knows this, which is why they have not increased income tax rates. It can certainly be argued that the SNP agree with the Tory bad government in Wetsminster on where tax rates should be.

      As an example of the difficulties in these areas, we have discussed the issue of bankers’ bonuses. Easy target eh? Lets stop the bankers bonuses eh? Big win for lefties everywhere eh?

      NO! The fact is that the UK receives the higher tax rate on virually all those Billions of bankers bonuses paid annually. If thye bonuses were stopped, then the Banks would make bigger profits. Corporation Tax rates are far lower than higher income tax rates so UK coffers end up with a smaller tax take (knocking on for 20% less than is currently the case for this bracket!

      You see Luigi, its complicated stuff. You may wallow in the luxury of being unaccountable for your thoughts on the way things should be done. Others, including the SNP government for Scotland, are actually accountable for the results of the policies they bring in – which is why you see the SNP following Tory policy on this and so many other issues.

      Does that help you?

    322. ScottieDog says:

      Glad you have pointed out that the tories are the party of banker and NOT the party of business.

      You omitted the fact the much of the bankers bonus is publically funded by way of bailouts and also that the mess caused by their practices is wholly guaranteed by the UK public.

      The SNP seem somewhat different in that they very much campaigned for fiscal expansion in the previous general election campaign whilst the tories used the neoliberal flat earth economic contractionary approach. The result was an increase in government debt which is the obvious result for anyone understanding macroeconomics.

      Yes in a non currency issuIng state like Scotland it is necessary to raise taxes to fund government finances. Not so in a currency issuIng power like the UK.

      The low spending gap boasted by London and the SE is a result of higher government investment. Spending equals income at the aggregate level.

      This completely objective lecture might help you…

    323. Welsh Sion says:

      Why is he David McWilliams in the Scotsman and Douglas McWilliams in the other sources? Did the crack cocaine go to his head and made him think (erroneously, of course) that he should adopt a more Scottish sounding first name?

      I think we should be told.

    324. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog: “Spending equals income at the aggregate level.

      Depends on where the money is spent. In defence for instance the multiplier according to Dr Craig Dalziel is reckoned to be, from memory, 0.6. That would be because money spent outside the country, e.g. the USA, doesn’t come back into the economy.

      The Tories have it doubly wrong. Not only do they think shrinking the state is a good thing because it reduces spending (while therefore directly decreasing GDP and therefore increasing the existing debt to GDP ratio), they also think it’s a good idea to privatise the spending which means global conglomerates making profits and hence taking a lot of that spend outside the country.

      Curiously the Tories have totally lost the plot when it comes to the traditional meaning of capitalism – something they used to have as their differentation in politics.

    325. ScottieDog says:

      But the tories and neo-liberal labour blairites haven’t shrunk the state. They have engaged the state’s resources in corporate welfare.

      The state is on the hook for more than £5 trillion of bank created debt money. Indeed Martin Wolfe of the FT now refers to banks as part public bodies now that they know they are bacially state backed – a huge moral hazard.

      The banking system itself over the past four decades has acted like a huge drag on GDP even though it is claimed otherwise. This is simply because most of the money banks create is pumped into the mortgage market and financial markets and NOT as the adverts claim, to fund a startup company. House price inflation wrecked demand in the economy by decimating disposable incomes

      The state sanctioned the creation of £445 Bn to purchase govt debt and boost the stock exchange – benefitting the wealthiest. The second round of QE was given the go ahead even after the government admitted it increased inequality.

      So they have made the state bigger but just given it a different focus.

    326. ScottieDog says:

      But don’t forget when talking about money being spent on imports that there are still jobs created with the distribution and sale of imports in this country. So demand is still creating jobs and spending leading to incomes.

      At the end of the day, real wealth is about resources. People get het up about trade deficits, yet if exporters are still willing to accept your fiat currency for their real resources I’d say that’s a pretty good deal.

    327. scottieDog says:

      sorry above replies were meant for yourself not sensibledave..

    328. yesindyref2 says:

      If you took the EU or better yet, the EEA and it had no imports and no exports in just say defence for an example, then all money stays in the economy. But if it bought £10 billion of chips from Intel for all the electronics , and the US bought £10 billion of coffee from Brazil, but the EU sold £10 billion of frigates to Brazil, then the money’s gone round in a circle, and the nett effect is as if all the money had been spent in the EU, and the US and Brazil have a nett zero effect as well.

      I have no idea what the point of that all is, but it left sensible in total bewilderment after about the second word.

    329. yesindyref2 says:

      That of course is a closed loop system, the problem is that it doesn’t usually exist. So for instance the UK with more inputs than outputs has to create nominal outputs, i.e. anything to do with the money itself. But that then becomes an industry in itself, first with real transfers, then imaginary ones, the imaginary ones become more important and vastly more profitable of course than the real ones, but the only way to substantiate that imaginary trade is to exponentially increase it, passing it around like a hot potato, but everyone taking their cut as it gets – bigger rather than smaller.

      After a time the hot potato bursts and everyone realises they’ve been eating hot air.

      Pass the salt.

    330. ScottieDog says:

      It boils down to the question of how important a trade surplus is.
      It is VERY important if
      A – a country adopts a foreign currency
      B – a country with its own sovereign currency pegs to a foreign currency (not as important as A as it can break the peg if it has to – see the £ in 1992)

      The trade balance It is not as critical if the country floats its currency. With a peg, any fiscal expansion has to be backed by an accrual of the foreign reserves of the currency you peg to in order to ‘back’ the currency (basically like a gold standard). So if you peg to the €, a surplus of trade to the EU is important.

      Using a foreign currency means you really do have to rely on taxation and exports to keep the country afloat. The last resort of course is borrowing which is expensive and normally ends up with agencies like the IMF etc inflicting painful measures on the country.

      If you have a government hell bent on government supluses then a trade surplus is important.
      The Tory obsession with government surpluses of course might work if the UK was a net exporter.

      Basic accounting determines that a surplus in one area means an equal deficit somewhere else. Of course being a net importer has meant that the rest of the world runs a surplus against us.

      That’s two sectors in surplus – so who’s running the deficit..

      Well WE DID

      The only root left for thatcher (who abandoned our industry and any hope of considerable exports) was to run a deficit in the private sector. That is you and me going further into debt. The only way for her to achieve that was to deregulate the banks.
      This is what gave way to the credit bubble – huge expansion of the money supply by banks.

      Of course we could only run that deficit for so long until we simply had to stop or go bust (2008). The ponzi scheme only goes on for so long.

      So UK gov are stuck really. They still hold dear the idea of ‘sound finance’, but with a private sector no longer able to go much further into debt and disposable incomes depeleted due to personal debt, the government has to run deficits anyway to avoid depression.

      The only way to keep the economy going is to finally admit that the government has to run much bigger deficits. Of course without Scotland, that would be amplified due to our export potential no longer being available to Westminster.

      Of course on top of that, anyone can expand a balance sheet but you can’t magic resources out of nothing.

    331. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ sensibledave

      “…dog-whistle stuff…”right-on” lefties…opposite result…”

      Agreed. But don’t knock the ‘ol dog whistle; when it comes to indyref 2 they’ll need to use as many frequencies as possible, and we’ll not look arrogantly down on those who respond.

    332. Hamish100 says:

      No indyref 2- we have been told off!


      Let’s just call it


      What no?



      Maybe not

      How about Independence.

    333. stu mac says:

      Michael Fry in today’s National has a go at that guy McWilliams. Describes his output as “a welter of nonsense”.

    334. FIONA TOMANY says:

      i buy the express to put in my cat’s litter tray. The tray and the express have so much in common they are both full of crap

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top