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Wings Over Scotland


In concrete boots

Posted on February 18, 2017 by

From today’s Herald:

heraldbae

It seems a good time to bring up another piece of our poll data.

promisespoll

The “Yes” column, of course, won’t come as much of a surprise. But the fact that 44% of No voters believe most (29%) or all (15%) of the No campaign’s promises to have been broken is perhaps rather more of an eye-opener.

Overall, 60% of Scots think that most or all of what “Better Together” promised them turned out to be lies. We can’t help thinking that might come to be significant over the next couple of years.

btshipb

doomgloom

lamontships

reidships

lamontreidsarwarships

reidships2

aajuz2fo

davidsonships

lamontshipsh

mcdougships

We’ll be sure to help people remember.

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Croompenstein

Calling Gary Smith , Colin Ripley and Phil Robertson what say you boys

Donald MacKenzie

The really frustrating thing is that John Reid went in there not giving a damn about the people he claimed to be so concerned about. All he wanted to do was maintain the status quo and ensure the ‘establishment’ was not rocked.

How dishonest and deceitful.

Matt Seattle

It’s as if BT knew all along about all the bad stuff that was going to happen anyway, and used it to scare, confident that Scotland would be powerless after the No vote.

galamcennalath

Hardcore NOs might agree that promises haven’t been honoured, but that’s fine, because the lies saved their Union. That Union is of such importance to them that any means justifies the end.

For soft NOs, they know they were manipulated and conned. Next time it won’t be so easy.

Among all these questions and percentages lie lots of little reasons for optimism.

George S Gordon

And Leasky send to be suggesting all the above is but a figment of Yesser imaginations.

Turns out even the No’s think we were sold not just a pup – more like 101 Dalmatians!

Tartan Tory

“There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” – George W. Bush

He screwed-up the quote, but it all seems very apt. I recall having protracted ‘discussions’ with a No voting Clydesider about this a couple of years ago.

It would almost be amusing if it wasn’t so serious.

When will they ever learn. 🙁

Sinky

Given the publicity the BBC gave to the shipyard workers surprised at the non coverage by the BBC of this latest Better Together broken promise.

Meanwhile both Scotsman and BBC going big on cost of Scottush government submission to Supreme Court but fail to mention that UK Gov refused to give cost of their predictable flawed appeal despite several FOI requests.

Its what they don’t report that highlights the bias of BBC / MSM

winifred mccartney

44% of no voters don’t think promises have been kept – at last the penny is dropping, its like scales falling from your eyes, once you start to notice and be informed you cannot go back. It happened for me some time ago when I was at a demonstration and then saw it reported on the bbc and could not believe I had been at the same protest. It is a trust thing and the unionist trust is gone well and truly – we are on our way and as someone on here said in ten years time 5m people in Scotland will claim to have voted YES.

donald anderson

That would be Lord Reid, former Secretary of Sate for Northern Ireland a “great Irish Republican Socialist”. Like the rest Royal, Loyalists, of the Sellick Board and Sir Rod Stewart he is one of the British State’s greatest assets.

Helpmaboab

These, ahem, “less-than-entirely-honest” claims were made in the expectation that they’d be long forgotten by the time the independence question was next raised.

Unfortunately for Britain’s loyal propagandists the next referendum will occur while their deception is still fresh in the national memory. Their new campaign of misinformation will thus be received with extreme mistrust.

Is it any wonder that Labour, the Tories etc all in such a permanent panic?

cal

60% of voters in Scotland believe most or all of the promises made have not been kept. So how come only 46% support independence? Clearly voters are no longer basing their decision on how to vote on any discernable logical thought process. What the hell is going on in people’s heads?! Hopefully, there’s just a time delay and voters will join the dots.

Marcia

I am finding it difficult to think of any promise that was kept.

heedtracker

Never trust a tory, red or blue.

gerry parker

T T @9:24.
I don’t know if you recall John at Arbroath one guy passing the Wings stall and shouting ” Ha Ha yez hivnae a chance of winnin, yezzl never get intaeEurope anyway if yez do.”

I often wonder what he thinks about being dragged out of it now, although “thought” might be a bit strong a process to describe what goes on in his head.

John Jones

Watched our “Tone” telling all the population to rise up as they were not aware that they were being lied to in the brexite referendum!
Does this not also apply to the Scottish one?
Is our ” Tone ” going to campaign on our behalf too? On second thoughts perhaps better not!

msean

Looks like voting no is shutting shipyards.

Tartan Tory

@gerry parker

I recall several taunts that day. A yoon driving past in his VW Golf who thought 2014 was all about football.

As you say, using the term ‘thought’ with a degree of aprehension! 😉

Thomas Valentine

Hopefully the leader and deputy of The Scottish Conservative and Labour Party, Ruth and Kizzie, will save these jobs to score political points.

galamcennalath

Marcia says:

I am finding it difficult to think of any promise that was kept.

I love a good challenge!

How about, The Vow finished by saying “A No vote will deliver faster, safer and better change than separation”

Better change? Nope.

Safer change? Hell, NO!

Faster change? Hmmm, perhaps! 🙂

Brus MacGallah

That’s BARON Reid you plebs, but of course he should be addressed as SIR John. As in Hey, Sur John, get tae…

HandandShrimp

Like Marcia I am struggling to think of a single pledge or promise the No side made that looks like coming to pass.

We on the Yes side urged caution at the time saying that the pledges were not in the gift of people like Reid or Lamont to make. I have every confidence that their excuse will be that these decisions are wrong but outwith their control. It will also be said with barely a backward glance or a moment’s regret.

Robert J. Sutherland

Even now, 47% of “no” voters think that “most” promises have been kept?! =gulp=

What alternate reality are they living in? I can’t think of any. (Well, roadsigns, maybe. Was that specifically promised?)

Further enlightenment still sorely needed here, it seems.

A free DVD from Phantom Power Films through letterboxes, eventually?

After the “phoney war”, when Brexit looms for real?

Brian Doonthetoon

All those graphics in the Rev’s article indicate to me, strongly, that there are a number on the NO side in 2014, who were/are still living in ‘the olden days’, when, if you wanted to find out what somebody had said wherever, you would toddle off to the local library to spend hours sifting through back copies of newspapers – and who was ever bothered enough to do that?

Now, we have the web, and the stuff we seek is mere milliseconds away, after a search on Google or whatever.

The thing is, how can the purveyors of the ‘false news’ from 2013/2014 get round their utterances? Answer: they can’t but the word has to be spread, by Twitter, Facebook, and face-to-face.

It’s still uphill but we’re getting there…

Ghillie

My heart breaks for our Scottish shipbuilding.

Everything we foresaw is coming true.

I hope and pray that more and more No voters find the courage to adjust their thinking and change their allegience.

60% of Scots and 44% off No voters seeing that the BT campaign didnot keep their much vaunted ‘promises’ is indeed encouraging. Especialy as that is in spite of the dishonest and highly Unionist media.

In the long term, I do expect Scotland’s shipbuilding to recover and flourish in an Independent Scotland that will be needing a plethora of vessels, both military and civil.

But for now, this is devestating news for many a family.

Adam

Interesting piece thanks. This will surprise absolutely nobody. BTW if you want a laugh I recommend this funny piece on Alex Salmond thinking he can ‘smell and Englishman’ link to thesparkmagazine.co.uk

Brian Doonthetoon

In case anyone doubts Tartan Tory’s credentials (as has happened in the past), here’s a pic of his car at Arbroath Seafest, August 2014.

comment image

Ghillie

How do Ruth and Kezia sleep at night?
(upside down, hanging onto the rafters perhaps)

Is Joanne Lamont happy with herself?

Could this be a game changer for more prominent no figures?

Bloody well should be!

Muscleguy

I wonder how exactly how many votes are dependent of the shipbuilding in Glasgow since the great decline in shipbuilding there.

Robert J. Sutherland

HandandShrimp @ 22:10:

I have every confidence that their excuse will be that these decisions are wrong but outwith their control.

Ah, the old Gove Gambit.

Pshaw! Toss “federalism” into the wastebasket then. Together with all the other upcoming empty promises. What will any of them be worth? Less than the toilet paper they’ll be written on, with predictable post-result use, just like last time.

Fool me once… (not that they ever did that with me, actually)…

Johnny

Robert J Sutherland:

I doubt 47% really believe that – but they need to tell themselves they do, because otherwise they’d have to admit they made an error in trusting Better Together (and they may wish to avoid belated buyer’s remorse). The sad thing is that if they are not yet ready for this admission, it’s unlikely they will be ready to learn anything from the experience.

Those No voters who do think the promises have been broken are another matter however….

On the subject of this story here and people saying not much about it on TV news. May and co have been pretty quiet which is very suspicious. Our media, which normally can’t help droning on ad naseum about the UK’s ‘great and good’ is ignoring the government, asking little.

In this, they have willingly fixated on another country’s elected head to a ridiculous degree – the Trump palaver has been very bloody convenient for hogging the news with. Makes one wonder what bad news the Tories are burying best they can in the meantime….like the story above.

gerry parker

Was out on a mission today and spoke to some great people still exited and enthusiastic about independence. Will be speaking with more in the coming weeks as we get started on the Local elections campaign.
Sore but happy feet.
Liz g.
18 sigs and climbing.

heedtracker

Ghillie says:
18 February, 2017 at 10:27 pm
My heart breaks for our Scottish shipbuilding.

Its been dead and gone for decades. Up and down the Clyde there are still the remnants of huge dry docks and ship yards but its like archaeology now, shopping centres and leisure centres. North Sea oil and gas expro could have turned it all around, the evolution from giant Clyde built tankers and cruise ships to even bigger production jackets and top sides. Our imperial masters had other plans. And we let them.

John H.

When I worked in the shipyards I was told by a manager that a LLoyds inspector had said that the Clyde built warships were by far the best in Britain. Either the other yards have learned from us, or quality is going to suffer if the work is taken south.

Croompenstein

FFS if we legitimise their wee shit country by giving them a news hour who knows where it will lead. 😀

link to twitter.com

Simon Curran

I wonder what those trade unionists have got to say in response to the Herald article? Honourable men admit they get things wrong. Anyone heard from Mr McPherson or Mr Dolan?

yesindyref2

Having been 20 frigates under the FCS program, amended to 18 then 13 under the GCS with 8 to take a lot of kit from the T23 plus 5 T27s, it’s gone down to 8 T26 and 5 T31 which might not even be part of the GCS, and could even have a different design concept. Added to that I don’t think the kit from the T23 is going to be so useful any more, I think changes in spec which might include the Mark 41 Vertical Launching System (Mk 41 VLS), plus changes in the operating system which will be on the new OPVs, might make that redundant. The missiles themselves will be OK – hence the Mk41. Which means no or little transfer of kit from the T23s, which would probably have been a job for the Clyde.

The Clyde via BaE would be allowed to tender for the T31 in competition from – well, anywhere in the world now I think, Brexit is changing a lot of things, and the fool Fallon has already said he wants warship building to be all over the UK, in fact it’s in the SDSR but not in the terms of his unguarded prattle. Bring back Hammond he was competent as defence secretary. But why the UK any more? The Eurofighter is assembled near Preston, but the hulls built in Italy. Much of the warships could be built – anywere in the world.

So BaE is down to 8, right? Well, who knows, even the contract for the initial 3 isn’t signed and blotted yet, and there’s talk of sections being made elsewhere similar to the QE carriers. It could be that the Clyde will do little more than assemble and fit out the final 5 if they ever get ordered – maybe even the first 3, who knows.

Meanwhile I think it’s almost certain the 2009 ToBA the MOD had with BaE has been cancelled for the OPV builds, and perhaps the limited first order of the T26 (3 of them if it comes off). So no guarantee of future work for BaE if true.

So BaE are looking at investing money for – what? Potentially not a lot, compared to the initial full order they expected for 13 FF. And they have other fish to topedo in the rest of the world, the US for example.

Meanwhile May goes off to the US and gets pally with Trump – and the US. Betrayal is being kind to the UK Government.

In all fairness, even an impartial defence observer should come to one conclusion about warship building on the Clyde, and one conclusion only. It has no future without Independence for Scotland. None.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi heedtracker says at 10:42 pm.

“Up and down the Clyde there are still the remnants of huge dry docks and ship yards but its like archaeology now…”

In the days when the docks in Dundee were still run by the Harbour Trust, they built a ‘roll on-roll off’ facility at the docks, adjacent to the ‘Fish Dock’ (24 hour access), which functioned for a short period.

The docks were then taken over by Forth Ports and the RO-RO facility was not seen to be of any use. It is still there, as can be seen at this link (zoom out to get your bearings):-

link to goo.gl

heedtracker

link to norway.gr

The Norwegian maritime industry
Norway has been a major player in shipping for more than 150 years. This small country on the fringe of Europe, which has less than a thousandth of the world’s population, controls one of the world’s largest merchant fleets.

What’s more, the numerous and varied maritime activities that have grown up around traditional shipping operations enjoy strong and often leading positions in the international market. The Norwegian Government’s vision is for Norway to be among the world’s leading maritime nations and a supplier of the most innovative and environmentally friendly solutions for the future.”

Scotland’s a maritime island for f’s sake. Why do we rely on some upper class twits in Whitehall, deciding what’s going to happen to what’s left of the Clyde? Oh yeah, we’re proud Scot buts British.

Simon Curran

Previous post should read Mr McPhee, autocorrect is anything but.

Jimbo

I know it’s wrong. I know I shouldn’t, but I won’t be able to help it.

I’m going to get a massive feeling of schadenfreude when next I meet a certain neighbour, a Labour voter and shipyard worker who campaigned hard to get his workmates to vote NO.

Fireproofjim

Muscleguy
It is not so much the number of votes in the shipyards, but it is an iconic industry, promised a glowing future after a no vote.
Failure to provide that future will show clearly how little Westminster can be trusted in the most obvious way.
We can still build ships in Govan. It could be a diamond for the next inde project.

yesindyref2

@George S Gordon “And Leasky send to be suggesting all the above is but a figment of Yesser imaginations

Nope. Leasky knows exactly what’s going on. He made just one comment below the line, to confirm that this is a change from the previous BaE plans when someone questioned it.

Iain More

The Yoons scorched earth policy continues. But nae to worry the Brit Nat Yoon Press and Media will find a way to spin it as an SNP BAAHD SCOTS USELESS story.

yesindyref2

OK so that’s the bad news, the chances are the rUK is going to start building perhaps even just buying warships overseas as well as the RFA vessels. But what would be the future for the Clyde with Independent Scotland? The good news?

Simple I think, carry on building OPVs, either taking the BaE designs and extending them to have a heli hanger, and perhaps a bit more range (a la T31), or doing our own. Make a speciality of that and flog them around the EU and the rest of the EEA like there’s no tomorrow. Perhaps 2 or 3 different designs, maybe even a larger one with that Mk 41 VLS or EU/NORDEFCON equivalent.

robertknight

What’s that you say?

Chickens?

And they’re coming home?

Home to roost?

So soon?

Bugger me!

Who’d have thought it?

dakk

Excellent news.

One less supposed subsidy for our myopic Uncle Jocks to try

justify their betrayal of Scotland with.

Next.

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

We can only hope that Brewer gets Gary Smith into the BBC Scotland studio and get him to explain EXACTLY what the hell is going on.

Gary Smith is the Ultra Unionist mouthpiece for the GMB Union in Scotland.

He DETESTS the SNP and Scottish Independence.

He is a total Scumbag.

As you can tell, I don’t have a lot of time for Gary Smith. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Clootie

…we all seen it coming except the loyal labour trade union leaders fooled by Westminster lies. They observed every step reduction in ship building, steel, mining etc etc decade after decade……but this time it would be different. This time they would keep their promises.

I wonder when the scales will fall from their eyes?

Is their party more important than their nation?

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Now we here that Canada is building the fabrication sheds to build Frigates for anyone that wants one.

Don’t be surprised if you here that Canada will build the Royal Navy Frigates.

They flattened the old sheds in Scotstoun and now they are not building the new sheds. The workers are left with NOTHING to build ships in.

It was a total con from the start.

You were duped by the Yoons.

Jimbo

Clootie wrote:

“I wonder when the scales will fall from their eyes?

Is their party more important than their nation?

I wonder, how many people will read that and say “YES” to themselves?

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

The BBC Scottish Six is also cancelled.

I can’t remember if the Scottish Six was part of the VOW or not.

There are that many VOWS being broken, I can’t remember which VOW was made when.

Famous15

O/T The Spark website freely acknowledges it spreads fake news “for a laugh”

But some clown here around 10.30 provides a link. BTW Alex Salmond has NO sense of smell ever since a teenage golfing accident. Damn I just made that up!

pool9

Excellent reiteration of just one of the long list of things that can be shown to No’s in future. The long line of images showing the BT team being… conservative… with the truth is hard to argue with.

They promise one thing and deliver the opposite, time after time. This time it was frigate building and jobs they promised, and have yet to deliver.

And now I read about wind energy jobs being under threat. Might that have anything to do with the subsidies that got axed by Cameron &Co.? I noticed the BBC article said nothing about them.

As for the 47% who think most promises have been kept – I agree with a poster above who suggested that this is what folk would say, even if they knew it wasn’y true, because they were not yet ready to admit how badly they were lied to.

Keep chipping away at them with the truth – sooner or later the scales will fall from their eyes. Enough of them, anyway!

Robert J. Sutherland

Johnny @ 22:37,

Yes, your explanation about that stat rings true.

Another interesting result is the 28% of no-voters (as oppposed to “no”-voters) who believe no promises were fulfilled – the second-highest of the lot – and the massive 69% of them who believe little or no promises were fulfilled.

No-voters are a very modest percentage in this poll (~6%, which is anomalously low given an actual turnout of ~85%) but if these people can be motivated out of self-defeatism, torpor or whatever else ailed them before – as both the Brexiteers and Trump succeeded in doing on their terms – then there is something to play for. Just half of this ~2/3rds of 6%, if repeated across the land, could take us from 48% up to the line.

“Incremental gains” and all that…

Dave McEwan Hill

Norway haas (or had the last time I checked, they may have increased) 42 armed vessels in its waters – all built in Norwegian yards and they build the UK’s Antarctic vessels as well. Denmark has a substantial navy. ROI has a navy. Scotland is the only maritime nation in the world without a navy.

pool9

Clootie – snap! (on the scales from eyes thing)

I too wonder how some people can continue to believe in lies about ‘protecting Scotish industry’, when we now have generations of evidence showing promises made, and then industries betrayed.

Dave McEwan Hill

Let’s not get too carried away with this. We don’t need to shout, people can see and make judgements themselves.

What happens if the UK suddenly turns round and announces the contracts are going ahead. We will have been suckered

yesindyref2

@Dave, the Fridtjof Nansen-class frigates were built in Spain for Norway by Bazan. Don’t know about the rest.

Robert J. Sutherland

pool9 @ 23:47,

I sometimes wonder whether there’s a modern equivalent of the McCrone Report, this one about Scotland’s vast potential for renewable energy (both in manufacturing and generating), and the current UKGov is not only keeping it under lock and key, classified “TOP SECRET”, but is actively downgrading support for renewables as a matter of policy, and encouraging the media to stay schtum about it, so as not to make the potential too obvious until the restless natives are well and truly back in their little box again.

Or is that just the paranoia occasionally taking over…?

osakisushi

All in all, I feel better about IR2.

First, tried to attend “the dugs” talk last night but it was standing room only. I was effectively legless.

But the icing came when I discovered the ‘For Argyll White Settlers’ website has ceased updating.

To paraphrase JK, our situation is of an (abused) spouse who threatens to leave. Then gets beaten up again for making the threat and I suspect some of Argyll’s white haired settlers who were not born in our country now realise this.

heedtracker

Scotland is the only maritime nation in the world without a navy.

How bad can it get now, on the Clyde. Ref 2, vote NO UKOK like last time and save fcuk all?

link to kvaerner.com

Liz

What worries me is 21% of YES voters think all or most of the promises WERE kept! Have they just switched off??

Dr Jim

Kezia Dugdale says: Independence isn’t the answer to this problem, the answer is staying within Englands single market which is pooling our resources and keeping them so that when we’re a starving country the big England will share with us all the bounty they have saved up for us all and we’ll have jobs cleaning the ships that other countries make that’s the promise of our next Labour Prime Minister whoever that’ll be in 2035 and Scottish Labour will work to that end to keep our UK together

Even if it’s only me left

And Anas of course

Robert J. Sutherland

Liz @ 00:18,

Maybe people who “remembered” voting yes, but actually didn’t? (Voted “no” or didn’t vote. There seem to be a certain proportion of “lost” non-shows compared to the actual turnout, for example.)

There will be quite a few “retro-yessers” after we win next time, I predict!

Legerwood

Robert J Sutherland @ 12.00am

Renewables being starved of investment – like this today for example:
link to bbc.co.uk

It was reported in the Herald on Saturday but not sure if it made it into the online edition and the BBC has it in the business section.

The company has approached the Scottish and Westminster Governments about support for the industry but no one is too hopeful about the latter giving any help. It would be against their policy which is about starving renewables of government support.

defo

If you’re ever needing a wee confidence boost re. Indyref 2, then Q26 is that adrenalin.

What does it tell us ?
At very least, 1 in 11 of 2014 No’s seem guaranteed to be fully fledged nawbags, and on top of that nearly half seem to be window lickers, but surely not all of whom are terminal cases.

The collision between self interest, and cold hard reality has yielded us a healthy looking cohort of softies. Not too far off HALF, and with one in three of those, we’re pushing at the proverbial open door.

Feeling better already. 🙂

Robert Peffers

@heedtracker says: 19 February, 2017 at 12:16 am:

“Scotland is the only maritime nation in the world without a navy.”

Eh! Since when did, “The British Royal Navy”, (sic), become the, “English”, Royal Navy, Heedtracker?

Dontcha know that it’s, “Her Majesty’s Royal Navy”?
Not only that but her consort is an old naval man? As was the future King apparent.

Liz g

Gerry Parker @ 10.39
Great stuff well done with the signatures.
There are some really great and enthusiastic people in your area is there no?

Meg merrilees

Stunning opinion piece from the NY Times on a link from Alyn Smith, plus two others.

link to nytimes.com

UK fishermen may not regain control of UK waters. One of the drafted provisions from MEPs is that in the exit agreement with Britain there will be “no increase to the UK’s share of fishing opportunities for jointly fished stocks [maintaining the existing quota distribution in UK and EU waters]”.

link to theguardian.com

Chatham House has produced a details analysis on Devolved External Affairs concluding that Brexit will result in “significant political and institutional implications.”

link to chathamhouse.org

boris
Eddie Munster

Interesting read, the Professor shows that not all Professors are mad, insular or asking people to lay down there lives, because there nationalism is the best kind of nationalism and not the stinky, dirty, smelly foreign kind.

“Brexit is the result of an English delusion, a crisis of identity resulting from a failure to come to terms with the loss of empire and the end of its own exceptionalism, argues Cambridge University professor Nicholas Boyle”

“There is a great lie peddled about the referendum: that it expressed the will of the British people. The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other.

This was far more significant than any division between ‘metropolitan elites’ and ‘those left behind by globalisation’. Are there no elites in Edinburgh or Belfast? Is no one left behind in the Scottish or Irish hinterlands? Even if such a division is present across the UK, and indeed the whole of the Western world, and it plainly is, why only in England did it express itself as so powerful a revulsion from the EU?

To explain the referendum result as a ‘howl of pain at austerity’ is a pious flight from reality. It is to ignore, to cover over again, the wound, festering below the threshold of public consciousness for two generations, which the referendum opened up to the air.

Those who voted Leave in the referendum were not voting about globalisation or stagnating living standards or austerity and declining welfare payments, they were voting about the EU, and it is condescension to pretend otherwise. But they were not being asked by the Leave campaign to express a preference for a particular rationally argued and practically feasible economic and political alternative to membership of the EU – that is evident, for none was offered before the referendum and none has emerged since. They were being asked to express an emotion about membership, and the English, but not the Irish or Scots, felt so urgent a need to express it that they threw reason and practicality to the winds.”

link to theneweuropean.co.uk

Ed t head

Its not just yes or no it’s a out look 1; will WM look after me or is it 2;we can make a great country. I am with 2 as its the best outlook I was born just south of the border but look to Scotland as my future as following WM will be a road to a far right future that is not for me. Or can I become a EU citizen in another country already looked to ere but no go so what ? Go and leave this Brexut hell , no hope, so I like were I am but the ukok are all around some will change but I meet a hard core, so is it better to argue or let them spout bul###it. I can only take so much, they take the high ground andveven with a proven figure can’t take the truth I hope article 50 causes a revolt but I. Don’t hold out much hope. As we don’t have enough MPs in WM. It’s a long turn fix so it’s Indy 2

Dr Jim

What seems very clear about all these polls is that many people don’t understand questions
I reckon if you did a poll to ask whether people knew their own names many would get that wrong

eg: If your vote were to be counted on the basis of a “didn’t vote” or “don’t know” answer would you be happy to have your vote counted as a Yes or No answer or be counted as a dead person

I’d be interested in the results of that poll

Macart

‘Really is depressing how many unionists simply don’t care about shipyard workers and their jobs. Political union at any price. #eatyourcereal’

Its been said before, but always worth repeating. The Tories are detestable for what they are. Labour for what they are not.

We trusted them and they deserted us when we needed them most. Even those Labour parliamentarians of the past I had a bit of respect for look pretty shabby and stained by the politics of that hoose on the Thames now.

Labour in Scotland put in a shift to deliver that indy result. They pulled every string, mobilized every meeja outlet, every luvvie. They intimidated, undermined, smeared, dialogued and triangulated like demons. Simply awesome mobilization of political resources.

All for party politics.

So eager to ‘END’ the SNP as a political opponent and get shot of that whole lesser problem of independence. Jumping into bed with the Tories they could easily write out of the history books, what with the ‘Scottish’ meeja on speed dial and all. Ayup! That could easily be erased with enough time and coverage.

The morons actually jumped at the chance to stab their own electorate in the back simply because they reckoned they could ‘do away’ with their biggest political opponent in Scotland. They reckoned that being the saviour of the union would boost their chances a bit the following year’s GE t’boot. They didn’t see the dagger in the Tory hand till it was far too late.

They probably reckon they’ve been hard done by y’know? How could the fates be so cruel kinda thing?

This is the REAL cost of Labour fronting Better Together. Near two and a half years and thousands of wage packets across every sector…LOST! Our representation daily humiliated in the media, actively sidelined in Westminster and the wider Scottish electorate’s voice utterly ignored by the UK government. Mainly because it’s a face and a voice that doesn’t suit. Our on loan sovereignty abused and the devo settlement (Sewell convention and all), proven worthless. Our membership status of the EU, our civil rights and our human rights under threat. Oh, and the small matter of Conservative Westminster government for the foreseeable future.

Well done Labour. You had only one thing to do… etc.

galamcennalath

Macart says:

We trusted them and they deserted us when we needed them most.

Again. Because that is exactly what they did to Scotland during the Thatcher era. Then too, Labour in Scotland put their damned Union before looking after Scotland’s interests.

Some people seemed to have forgiven and forgot what Labour did then. It had a mandate to do whatever was necessary to protect Scotland. They failed miserably.

It was no surprise to me they did it all over again in 2014.

deewal

When is The Nation of Scotland going to realise that The Fascist únelected bunch of thieves in Westminster have declared War on us and will go to any lengths to Occupy and “cleanse” us again ?

Giving Goose

Re Macart

Regarding the comment about Labour not seeing the dagger in the Tory hand. I think that is incorrect.

Labour knew the dagger was there because they were holding it.

My point?

Labour in Scotland is just a front for the Tories.

Multi-party politics in Scotlamd should not be viewed through the lens of English party politics.

There is no multi-party politics in Scotland in the sense of Labour/Tory/Libdem.

The three English parties are genuinely a single entity in Scotland. One and the same. A big Tory/ Unionist party.

The Labour bit knew exactly what it was doing.

Now the ordinary door chapping activists probably thought/continues to think that they are representing a “Working people kinda movement thingy” or “Liberal progressive thingy” but the people at the top, Reid, Darling, Murphy, Wee Wullie Worthless of the Libdems etc, all know and cynically support the deceit and lies.

The whole big con is only, and always has been, about the Union and f*** the electorates misplaced expectations.

Forget False News…Scotland has False Politicians fronting False Parties trumpeting a False Agenda.

woosie

Shipbuilding scrapped. Fishing traded off. Mining closed. Steelworks sacrificed. Farming abandoned. HMRC moved to england. Job centres closed. Oil sector robbed and abandoned. They won’t stop until there is nothing Scotland has to offer.

Surely this is another incentive for the people of Scotland to say “we want out!”

Judging by the audience demographic on QT the other night, ( I just watched last night ) the tide is definitely turning.

David Caledonia

I remember the lies the no camp came out with in connection with the shipyards at the time of the scottish referendum, and i remember thinking all you people building warships and voting no to protect your own jobs will regret it
But of course they believed the lies and promises, if any of those workers had just done one little bit of research, they would have discovered that countries like sweden are building lots of ships for lots of countries, and they are not restricted to hoping the mod will provide work for them, because due to the secrecy of that work they cannot take on any other work if there is no mod work to be had
Now lets look at Fergusons on the lower clyde, they need more shiprights as they don’t have enough of then to fill the posts that need filled, they have taken on new apprentices, this is a yard that is not constrained to just building warships, this is a yard that can compete for any shipping order from anywhere in the world, the clyde could get back to where it was in the days of the great Jimmy Reid and before, but it will take a lot of investment to get there, that will not happen under westminster, you see scotland does not vote for them, so why should they do us any favours, you know the score, when your votes don’t count, neither do you when the money is being invested, they prefer to spend billions building a road system from London to Manchester, or spending billions tarting up westminster or renovating the royal palaces.
Vote for scotland, if you don’t have the bottle to run your pwn lives, then move aside and leave it to those who do

David Caledonia

mmm

Breeks

This is the bitter end of betrayal, but it’s missing the bigger picture.

Why is our ship building industry reduced to such an unhealthy dependence on chicken feed MOD orders? Across the North Sea, facing the same Far Eastern competition we do, we have Norwegians who didn’t piss their oil revenues up against the wall, but invested in their oil production and support vessels, and further diversified that ship building with fishing boats, ferrys and cruise liners. Their shipping industry is massive, robust, and a source of pride for the Norwegians just as Scottish shipbuilding was a source of pride for Scotland.

That’s the big betrayal. For decades we have been ruled by a foreign government which only considers Scotland ripe for plunder. They have sucked our country dry and left the mere husk, yet they still want more and more from us.

The only generosity Westminster shows Scotland is the limitless layer upon layer of disingenuous bullshit and propaganda they deluge us continually, all designed to cover over their theft and deliberate deprivations which they mask as some “greater good”.

Westminster breaking a promise is barely news. Westminster has broken our country, and broken the spirit of every Unionist who won’t stand up for Scotland.

Let us end this sham, and start to fix ourselves once we get rid of our super-parasite. Let us invest ourselves in our renewables industry the way the Norwegians invested themselves in their oil. Let us build production of clean energy and be the literal power house that keeps the lights on for our friends in Europe.

Ken500

The Labour Party is finished. It is just destroying itself. Instead of being an opposition and being the Party of Remain. It just passes through every Tory policy. It had a chance to represent the majority that wanted to remain in the EU, in the rest of the UK.

The Tory Brexit carry on is just unbelievable. How long it will carry in before they are voted out? They committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies to ruin the world economy. They are complete and utter fools.

The Tories would rather spend £10Billion a year on quint Trident, than build ships to patrol the shores, ferries, oil supply boats, barges and liners. They are the only association in the world to have banned renewables and support nuclear. Toshiba has suffered £Billions of loses in the US on nuclear. Hinkley Point is just a disaster waiting to happen.

Scottish Independence will revitalise the Scottish economy. Spending on what Scotland needs and not making loan repayments on debts not borrowed or spent in Scotland.

Scotland raises the most (pro rata) £54Billion and end off the worse off paying £4Billion on others debt. The UK raises £515Billion in taxes. Take off £54Billion = £461. Divide by 11 = £42Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Million. Scotland has to pay £4Billion of debt repayments.
Scotland is the only part of the UK that has to live within it’s means. Getting a so called Deficit from Westminster bad decisions.

Theresa May campaign to stop the abuse of people. A complete joke. The Tories have sanction and starved the most vulnerable people. Especially women and children. In a sadistic campaign that defies logic. Cutting mobility allowance that cost more as people can’t work. The ‘bedroom tax’ costs more as people have to be rehoused. Cutting NHS funding, Killing the elderly off because of lack of social care in England. The elderly should consider that before they vote. The Tories are a disgrace.

Westminster is a shambles. Full of white middle class wealthy males who do not care about anyone else but themselves and their associates. Milking the public purse for all it is worth. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All disasters waiting to happen, They will be redundant before they are finished and are a complete waste of public money. The Tories and their associates will be getting their cut. In fees, commission, consultancies and expenses.

The illegal wars caused the migration into Europe. 2/3 of migrants in the UK go to London where there are jobs. London voted Remain. The UK has taken 10,000 refugees. Germany has 2 million and a better economy. Westminster is a corrupt establishment full of Unionist fools, who are ruining the world economy.

Hamish100

What chance this story will be on the BBC ” National” News. Zilch.

Now we hear there won’t be a Scottish Six can I suggest that the Holyrood Committee play the week news and ask Donalda McKinnon, Tony Hall – sorry Sir , to point out the news from Scotland or World news without a London perception.

State broadcasters will not flinch in embarrassment.

Sinky

Someone should tell Sunday Times that Scotland’s GDP is more than twice that of Greece and that’s before the recent increase in oil prices

Chick McGregor

It is quite agonizing watching Norway’s progress.

Not only are they planning to replace all fossil fuel road vehicles with EV’s by 2025 but they have even started electric ferries.

Big 150 car jobs.

They have charging stations and spare batteries at each end of the trip. ‘Re-fueling’ only takes 10 mins. Running costs are 30% less. Cleaner, faster, quieter, smoother, greener and more reliable than fossil fuel jobs.

An indy Scotland could use our electricity surplus to do exactly the same.

Excuse me while I bite my knuckle,… again. GNNnnach!

DerekM

haha spend a pound in spar and get a free sunday mail,the assistant was like shit cant even give these things away when i told him i am not interested in being lied to.

He did not look happy having to register a sale and showed me the amount of copies he had already had to register as a sale but not taken,it was quite large and that is just from 7am lol

On my exit he shouted indyref2 and gave me a big thumbs up 🙂

North chiel

Agree with Dave Mcewan Hill@ 1157pm .However, is this
another ploy by Westminster to continue the uncertainty and to
use these contracts ( again) during the Indyref2 campaign??

Capella

I didn’t think it was possible to loathe and despise these people any more than I already did. But I was wrong. Looking at those NO campaign leaflets, press releases and tweets fills me with rage at the self-serving lies and mendacity.

We’ll be sure to help people remember.

Ken500

Marr – total non self awareness.

Russian plotted regime change in Montenego

Assassination of North Korea.

Westminster illegal invasions killing and maiming million of people in the Middles East for regime change and theft of resources. Not a mention.

DerekM

@ North chiel

Yes that is exactly what they will do what they always do promise the earth and then fail to honour their promises.

The SG should counter this by setting out a program for indy Scotland`s navy and merchant navy and when the yoons scream how are you going to pay for it they should reply by making England pay the correct amount for fuel and electricity they get from Scotland.

Time they started playing the brit scum at their own game,if they want to threaten us we should threaten right back.

Al Dossary

Interesting about the unused RORO ramp in Dundee. Do the the MOD have a plan somewhere to use it to put down the modern day “Bonny Dundee” when it comes I wonder.

Dundee was one of the original contenders for the centre of the offshore supply industry in the 1970’s. It lost out mainly due to its being perceived as a hotbed of trade union unrest (around the time of the Timex strikes).

Strangely enough Blackpool got the nod for the Morecombe bay helicopter operations rather than Liverpool also.

I look forward to the day we see regular ferries from the East coast to Scandinavia and mainland Europe again.

Smallaxe

DerekM:

I tell them that if they put a free RAG on my receipt as a registered sale then I won’t buy my shopping.Try it, it works.
🙂

Peace Always

Breeks

Chick McGregor says:
19 February, 2017 at 8:56 am
….It is quite agonizing watching Norway’s progress.

Oh but Chick, it’s £10 a pint!!!

It would make you weep how blind and short sighted some of our Unionists are.

Glamaig

it would be interesting to profile all the answers given by people who did not vote in 2014 and see if they are more typical of Yes voters or No voters.

Although 85% is a massive turnout as votes go, it still leaves a staggering 600,000 people who did not vote in 2014, which is beyond my comprehension.

Maybe in future polls ask why they didnt vote. I know 2 people who didnt vote in 2014 and they are the type who are ultra-cynical and hate politics, but I suspect its Westminster that has caused their cynicism, and if they can be persuaded to vote, they would be more likely to vote Yes.

It would be interesting to see confirmation of that.

gus1940

When is the YES side going to point out and use the illustration provided by the arrogant rejection of every single proposal from SNP MPs in both the latest Scotland Act legislation and the more recent Brexit debates as an example of how Scotland’s interests have been trampled on for the last 310 years by an overwhelming perpetual majority of English MPs acting always in the interests of England at the expense of Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

Hamish100

Marr on Tv with Mandelson

Only the lib dems are against brexit — says the man from the BBC

Hope this biased reporting will be thrown in the face of the BBC this week

DerekM

@ smallaxe

Thanks i will try that next time 😉

Shocking that to boost sale figures the mail has to resort to this tactic,makes you wonder just how much they actually sell and how they can afford to do this in Scotland,must be getting a cash drop from someplace.

gordoz

‘Really is depressing’ how some Scots workers let themselves be manipulated by Westminster and the Unions again and again.

Will they never learn ? This is another way …

Alex Beveridge

woosie @ 7.51 am.

Absolutely correct, and this “asset stripping” of Scotland will continue unabated, even after we gain our independence. They, the Westminster establishment, are determined to teach us a lesson we will never forget, merely for daring to consider that we could decide to run our own country.
And yet, there are still people amongst us who believe that May and co, and their fellow travellers, will look after us, and replace all the E.U funding that will be lost, if we are forced out of Europe.
Do these people never heed the lessons of history? For centuries all the British establishment do is take, take, take, and only when they have bled a country nearly dry do they leave, and it’s then left up to the downtrodden masses they have left behind to try to make something of what has been left of their country. It has happened many times, and Scotland will be no exception.
The only difference is that on this occasion, and I sincerely hope that this situation continues, there has been virtually an absence of violence, which probably makes us unique in the history of a people trying to gain their independence from the British State.
However, whether this present calm will be allowed to continue is not certain, because judging by the inflammatory rhetoric used during the E.U Referendum campaign, I fear for Indyref2, especially when Nicola announces the date on which it is to be held.
As will be obvious, I don’t trust Westminster to any degree, and I believe they will use any means, fair or foul, to try to prevent us gaining our independence, and the tactics used will become more abhorrent, to like minded people at least, as the campaign progresses.

HandandShrimp

I am sure that I heard on the radio that the Hootsman is running with Scotland would be the worst economy in every known galaxy if there is a Yes vote as their main headline.

Was an independence referendum called ande I missed it? or is this a particularly egregious case of Premature Project Fear #3?

Ian Foulds

Has anyone listed the promises in the Vow, the Smith Commission Recommendations and compared those with the powers granted?

I believe this would be a useful billboard/propaganda tool for our nonYES countrymen/women during YES2

jdman

Tartan Tory @ 9.55
You might also recall The late Tory MSP for Stonehaven (who’s name has eluded me) walking up from the Better Together stall, he appeared to be looking for Rev Stu, with his determined gait, I thought he was looking for a square go.

Alba 46

O/T (slightly)

Trump is a racist, a bully, a know all, arrogant, self serving egotistical arsehole. I agree with him on absolutely nothing except his attitude to the media. He has nailed that one perfectly.

He bypasses the media by appearing at rallies and speaking directly to the people and putting out statements on twitter. The reaction of the media at his press conferences is gratifying to watch. They are incandescent with rage and are on the verge of exploding.

All you hear from the media is the freedom of the press must not be curtailed as if Trump has to be answerable to them. He is answerable to the people not the biased media. The press in the US appears to be the same as the press in Scotland. They DEMAND the freedom to report/print what they see as their version of the truth without any semblance of truth or balance.

The media is corrupt pure and simple. They need to be reigned in but that will not happen as long as they reflect the tune of the english government.

Smallaxe

Derek, it’s not just the “Mail” I’ve been offered the “Sun” also.
They could offer me the Moon and the “STAR” if they like but I am on a “National” cause.

Peace Always

harry mcaye

Sunday Herald running an article on online abuse from both sides heavily featuring Stu. Some very good points made, mentioning his article this week about death threats. However, they do dredge up his Hillsborough comments from 2012. Hmmm. Motive for that? Relevance?

I couldn’t disagree more with Stuart on this, having been an avid follower of the families campaign over the years. I’ve thought, pretty much from the day after it happened, that those fans had a right to expect there to be ample room for them, regardless of how they behaved. I don’t think their behaviour was out of the ordinary in any case and certainly within the norms of crowd dynamics. They were eager to get in to see their team and if your getting swept along by a crowd it is damn near impossible not to push the person in front. Anyway, he’s entitled to his views and it’s a pity the SH saw fit to bring it up. Quite what it has to do with Scottish Independence I can’t fathom.

Craig P

In 1979 conservatives and labour promised Scotland would thrive if we rejected an assembly. Instead, everything got shut down.

So in 2014 when better together promised that shipyards would thrive (Why just shipyards? There are hardly any jobs in them) I was pretty sure orders would be cancelled once we were safely over the other side of a No vote.

Just can’t quite figure out why so few No voters could see that, didn’t they remember the 1980s?

Tinto Chiel

“Was an independence referendum called and I missed it? or is this a particularly egregious case of Premature Project Fear #3?”

There’ll be a lot more of their premature ejaculations, HandandShrimp. It’s all they can manage now.

Alba46: I agree Trump’s only good point is that he drives the MSM mad with his utter contempt for them. When the BBC hack smugly announced himself as “Jon Sopel, BBC: free, fair and impartial”, Trump looked sidelong at one of his aides and observed in his camp way, “There’s a beauty!”

Ian Pannell got the same sideswipe at the previous one.

Cue much frothing.

They don’t like it up ’em, Captain Mainwaring.

Smallaxe

Alba46

One of Nana’s links from yesterday:
link to thecanary.co

Peace Always

Orri

The Scottish Six always held the risk of being a massive con job. At the moment we get BBC national news that seems to have gotten the idea that the NHS they cover is for England and Wales. I saw an item about differences between some along the that border so wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a precursor to them being merged. With an SS providing our news a cynical might say that they could downplay just how shite the NHS and other areas were in the rUK. If they covered it to all.

Footsoldier

Sunday Times has prominent article on front page something along the lines that independence would make us worse than Greece – here we go again again.Looks like the Yoon press have started campaigning already.

I was actually going to buy the Sunday Times which I do from time to time but the headline persuaded me otherwise.

Bob MACK

Thus far our deficit has gone from £4 billion to £8 billion then to £12 billion then £14billion and now £19 billion.

All in the last 10 years apparently. I think we need a new accountant.

DerekM

While i think the trumper is a big tool i find it hard to say that i agree with his stance on the MSM.

However our motives are completely different,his motives are based on revenge for all the bad things they ever said about him,where is mine is to free my country from oppressive propaganda from the fake nation of Britain.

And before any of you dimwit yoon trolls get your knickers in a twist Britain is an island always has been always will be.

Footsoldier

One of life’s coincidences. No sooner had I posted at 11.18 when the doorbell went, which turned out to be a Conservative canvasser, very pleasant he was.

When I said I was for independence, he asked me if I was worried about Scotland’s deficit. I said I was and given it was created in the Union, time to get out.

He simply did not have an answer to that and I was really surprised how quickly he gave up.

We need to do far more of turning their questions and viewpoints back on themselves.

HandandShrimp

Footsoldier

Oh it was the Times…thought they said the Scotsman on the radio. The Scotsman will recycle it next week 😉

Marcia

There MUST be a referendum on the way with all these scare stories appearing all of a sudden*. London must be worried.

*if on Marr – then the Establishment are very worried.

[…] Sourced through Scoop.it from: wingsoverscotland.com […]

HandandShrimp

Marcia

Yes, in fact I think we are duty bound to hold one because all these people will be disappointed if we don’t 🙂

Ruth, Rennie and Kezia’s almost daily demands that there shouldn’t be a referendum has almost guaranteed there will be one because they have kept it at the forefront of the political debate.

bjsalba

@Alba 46

Fox News Supports Trump.

And it is owned by?

Thepnr

@jdman

The late MSP you mentioned re Wings weekend at Arbroath Seafest was Alex Johnstone.

Brian Doonthetoon posted this picture of Tartan Tory’s car, did you spot the big stainless steel Wings emblem tied to the fence 🙂

comment image

Nana

Sorry I’m late this morning

Links

link to thecommongreen.scot

link to commonspace.scot

Leading EU experts advise that EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill does not disable Parliament’s ‘constitutional handbrake’ on Brexit
link to bindmans.com

Historywoman’s comments caused a bit of a surge in new members
link to facebook.com

Nana

link to thecanary.co

link to middleeasteye.net

link to stopwar.org.uk

EU citizens living in the UK could face legal limbo after Brexit
link to archive.is

Smallaxe

Nana: Good Morning,

Links for Sunday brunch.Kettle’s on.Thank you.

Ps Next time you are late, Bring a note.
🙂

Peace Always

Nana

Why some Tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years
link to archive.is

link to davidhencke.com

link to scepticpeg.wordpress.com

Trump family trips cost taxpayers $11.3m in one month
link to archive.is

Dave McEwan Hill

O/T

but awfully good

link to nytimes.com

Nana

@Smallaxe

Yes Sir, sorry Sir. It’s all these late nights listening to off topic music posts to blame! lol

Smallaxe

Nana:

It wisnae me, a big boey dun it an’ran awa’

Peace Always

Jack Murphy

Ghillie said at 10:32 pm yesterday:
“How do Ruth and Kezia sleep at night?
(upside down, hanging onto the rafters perhaps)

Is Joanne Lamont happy with herself?…….”

Here’s another ex-Leader of Labour in Scotland, Mr Jim Murphy who seems to be doing away fine with the Blairites.

Short quote from Mr Murphy’s Wikipedia entry:
“In November 2016 Murphy took up an employed position as an adviser to Tony Blair.” [!!!!!!]

wull2

Its like the miners all over again. Split and Divide. Don’t let it happen to Scotland.

Macart

RE: The meeja, freedom of speech, fake truth… etc.

They have absolutely no one, and I do mean no one, to blame but themselves.

Their own corporate ego, their willingness to actively participate in politics to well beyond the point of journalistic ethics, has brought us the political system and the societal division we see today.

They are fully paid up, or should that be bought off, willing participants of project UK on this side of the pond and their peers on the other side are just as responsible.

They are neither believed or trusted as a body for a reason. Scratch that. For a veritable mountain of reasons. There are good journos out there. There are good commentators, budding writers and one or two publications. There are news outlets that actually make an effort to report, y’know, news.

Not a single one of them is without their own bias or personal opinion.

It’s always been about degrees of truth and fact. It’s been about who bends the facts, by how much and for what ends? If Leveson taught the public anything, it’s that the meeja were beyond compromised at every level. That they had no moral high ground and no monopoly on the facts, the truth or wisdom.

They’ve lost public trust? No, they willingly abused it and threw it in the sewer.

I’ll hear no wailing or gnashing of teeth from any mainstream journalist. They live in the world they created. Karma simply decided to repay their efforts accordingly.

Capella

@ Footsoldier – good point. With a deficit of £19 billion it’s high time we got out of the Union. I don’t think we can afford to stay any longer.

caledonia

what we need is a side by side photoshoot
ie photo of shipyard promise with scrapping it by the side same with hrmc jobs
out/in the eu lies
peterhead power station yes then no and any other we can think of

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Nicola will announce the date for IndyRef2 in March.

The first steel for the new Frigates is to be cut in September.

Will Micheal Fallon put ANOTHER delay on the Frigate order until after IndyRef2 saying “you will get the Frigate order if you vote NO”

This will be a get-out for the UK Government because I have a feeling that they know already the Frigates are not going to be built on the Clyde.

bjsalba

@nana at 11:57

Your link to the Guarian article:
EU citizens living in the UK could face legal limbo after Brexit link to archive.is

It isn’t just the Home Office that isn’t ready.

I think you gave a link to this article already but it is pertinent here:

link to politics.co.uk

Guardian seems a bit slow on the uptake, don’t you think?

Famous15

Re the vile racial stereotype on the front page of the economist. Every time you see it on display ,in shops or libraries remember there is a bin nearby!

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Whether you are in favour of the “Scottish Six” or not is besides the point.

The real disgrace is, the decision of what news Scots want to watch and for how long is being taken by a foreign country (England).

The BBC is actually coming up to Holyrood this week to tell us what we can and cannot watch.

We are not worthy oh mighty ones.

The only relief I have is knowing that I don’t pay for their London Establishment bias.

Calum MacKay

For too long the ship yards on the Clyde have been used as a political football by the red and blue tories.

Starving development and orders until a general election is called and then all of a sudden new war ships are needed some time in the future.

The cycle continues, yards down size or close and the tories little helpers – labour – trot out a malleable shop steward, etc.

Makes you wonder how quickly these shop stewards forgotten Jimmy Reid – well the workers on the Clyde haven’t and neither have all working Scots.

Do the malleable shop stewards and labour think the workers are stupid? If no, stop treating them as stupid and being seen to hold Scotland to hostage on the promises of tories.

Has the Scottish referendum taught the Scottish labour party learned nothing about lying and mimicking the tories on the union, evidently so!

Ship yard workers are not stupid, labour take note!

Jack Collatin

“The future of Govan and Scotstoun is dependent on the awarding of the Type 26 frigates, which will be built between 2015 and 2021 and provide work for 1500 people.
The ships will replace the Royal Navy’s existing Type 23 frigates.
Mr Davidson said the referendum was a factor in the decision on where to place the contract and pointed out the UK Government had stated it does not build warships in other territories.

He said: “There should be no unnecessary delays in awarding the contract. The MoD does not need to wait for the referendum to issue contract.
“It could place the order with the provision that if Scotland separates it would revert back to the MoD where to place it. There would be a break clause in it.
“Then the SNP needs to be clear about what it would do if the order is taken back.” ”
This was Davidson (or has he changed his name to Harrison too, out of shame for his treachery)November 2013.
I still look to the bottom of our street in anticipation of him charging my abode, bayonet in hand.
WE kicked all but 3 of them out at the ’15 UK GE yet still their rotten corpses give off a hellish putrid stench.
To our Dead Tree Scrolls and English broadcasters feeling the financial pinch , I offer this ‘efficiency and savings’ advice. Sack the hacks and presenters. Issue a single paged broadsheet every day with a banner headline:-
“Scotland, you are still shite.”, or a screensaver instead of Misreporting Scotland of the Barren Barren Banks of the Clyde from Clydebank to Dumbarton, 2017.
I suspect that No voters claimed to have supported Yes in your poll, Stu; hence the apparent anomalies.
They lie by force of habit, as you know.
Red Lead runs through my veins: I am a product of the Clyde.
Self determination is only a matter of time now.

Smallaxe

“A man willing to work, and unable to find work, is perhaps the saddest sight that fortune’s inequality exhibits under this sun.”

Thomas Carlyle

Peace Always

HandandShrimp

On the Scottish Six it looks like the Branch Office will be told to shut up…it will undoubtedly come with yet more cuts to the BBC Scotland newsroom for fear that they may go native when Idyref2 kicks off.

heedtracker

Scottish Six was just another hoax. There’s two houses of power in Scotland, Holyrood and Pacific Quay. One tells us the other, is a load of shite.

UK Defence Journal ?@UKDefJournal 12m12 minutes ago

UK Defence Journal Retweeted Wings Over Scotland
The honour of being called “fake news” by ‘Wings over Scotland’ is truly overwhelming.UK Defence Journal added,

Wings Over Scotland @WingsScotland
@UKDefJournal Yeah, and they’re going to build them in a new £200m frigate factory. You’re fake news, buddy.

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Calum MacKay 12.59pm

Micheal Fallon will blame the SNP and IndyRef2 for the next delay on the Frigate order.

The GMB Union are as much to blame as the Tories regarding the decline of the Clyde. The GMB Union are Ultra Yoons based in England led by Gary Smith in Scotland.

Gary Smith is a hater of all things Scottish. Infact he has been known to favour abolishing the word Scottish, to be replaced with the word British.

Rule Britannia

Alison Lindsay

We need shipping for our many islands and coastal regions. We do not need to build monstrous killing machines for the sea. An independent Scotland with our long historic expertise in ship building can produce transport shipping, fishing boats, pleasure boat, emergency life boats and Scottish Navy patrol ships for defense only.Ship building on the Clyde for all of our own needs is viable. With our ragged coastline, huge fishing areas, many islands and strategic North Atlantic position this is a must. Ignore Westminster propaganda and their influence on BBC/media brainwashing. Think independence for ourselves.

heedtracker

So you see, for sure Vote NO for Type 26 Clyde built frigate factory 18 Sept 2014 was a hoax but look, trust us once again and we will give you,

UK Defence Journal ?@UKDefJournal 22m22 minutes ago
More
UK Defence Journal Retweeted Wings Over Scotland
The Clyde will still build 5 Offshore Patrol Vessels 8 Type 26 Frigates and 5 Type 31 Frigates, this has not changed despite sensationalism.

And if you do vote YES ref 2, you’ll lose this not sensational UKOK promise too.

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Gary Smith, leader of the GMB Union in Scotland is also one of BBC Scotland’s “useful idiots”.

They wheel him out whenever they want a really bad “SNP Bad” headline story.

He is also partial to a bit of Project Fear spreading.

He is not a nice guy.

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Something a bit cheerier:

“Second Scottish referendum ‘weeks away’ from being called”

link to breakingnews.ie

heedtracker

Its all FM Sturgeon’s fault really, according to these twerps,

“First Minister of Scotland challenged over shipbuilding claims”

link to archive.is

Lie your arses off, blame the recipient. How nice.

Valerie

Nana at 12.04

Everyone should be reading that piece by Rawnsley in the Guardian. Several Tories now briefing they fear blood on the streets, mainly down to the impending economic situation.

We really are just in the limbering up phase of what’s to come. We are in the early days of a complete breakdown, the only argument will be degree.

Whether Tories are being honest about what’s to come, OR they are like the Redwoods, who would relish troops on the street, doesn’t matter anymore, because it’s coming. They are ready for it, they are planning right now.

There are now a fair few, very sane, rational people, scanning the economic situation, and see a meltdown, like we have never seen.

Getting out is literally about our survival. I do not want to contemplate how we will be treated if we lose again.

This is the shock doctrine, and the signs are all there.

galamcennalath

BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

Nicola will announce the date for IndyRef2 in March.

She can’t do it until after Article 50, because without that ther is no Brexit, it’s just Tory wishful thinking up until that document is handed to the EU.

Will A50 be after the SNP conference? Possibly. Is that intentional? Or, do the Tories genuinely not care about events in Scotland?

Well, they do. But Brexit is a bigger fish for them IMO.

Hamish100

A view from England ukdefence
“Tim February 17, 2017 at 23:10
Yes and yes. Although you’ve just spelled out why our English polititions are lunatics for letting Scotland walk all over us. We should cancel the T26 and move our subs to Barrow and Devonport.”

No doubt a view the scotch Tories and scotch labour and GMB Union agree with.

clipper

Sorry o/t but just posted this on previous thread including quote from Ealasaid not because I’m a great comment writer but because the last thread’s running out of steam and I’ve attempted to answer a question many ask about how to spread the word effectively.

“But there a lot of Scots that are not that interested in politics and are not yet fully aware of what is going on. However prices are now going up and things are starting to change. They will be starting to look for their usual summer holiday and notice the pound dropping and maybe more requirements than in previous years. As more things impinge on them maybe then they will pay attention. After all IndyRef2 has not been called yet and Auntie Beeb says everything is OK!”

They’ll be told that it’s the SNP’s fault and they’ll believe it, or at least many of them will.

There seems to be a bit of an uptick in commentators from abroad talking up Scots indy. To them looking at it from outside Independence is a no-brainer. However these people are outsiders with no real understanding or appreciation of the depth and extent of anti-independence propaganda which blankets the country, nor do they have any real understanding of the depth and extent of wilful ignorance that exists throughout the Scottish electorate as a whole.

Seems that many here think that when the negative effects of brexit start to become real that’ll somehow swing the polls (if you believe the polls that is) but don’t be too sure. All sorts of things have happened recently which the msm can’t hide entirely and which would make it crystal clear to all but actual morons that Scotland should leave the uk, yet nothing happens. (Again, if you believe the polls.)

I’ve no doubt that there are Scots born Scots living here now who if there was a military occupation of Scotland by the uk gov would be thinking well they haven’t kicked MY door in yet so it must be ok, it’s all the SNP’s fault and it’s better than that big scary Independence thing anyway.

It’s quite possible that no actual EVENT will bring about the sea change in opinion that’s required to gain another 5-10% of the vote. What’s required now – right now – is to keep up the momentum started by inform Scotland with the bbc misreporting campaign. Now that that campaign’s over I get the impression that it’s now been decided to put the feet up for a while, which is precisely the wrong thing to do just now. We need more crowdfunds for billboard, advan and organised leafleting campaigns being conducted up and down the country, with the content of the ads and leaflets being created by people who not only fully understand the facts supporting the case for Independence but who also have experience in the fields of marketing, pr and social psychology. Or alternatively at least in some instances simple but highly emotive quotes from prominent unionists could be emblazoned all over the place, for example the recent Julia Hartley-Brewer tweet.

You often see on here people anguishing about how to reach into the broader low information soft no demographic, well ffs it’s not rocket science and it’s not impossible, just stop talking about it and actually start using the available methods as related above and just do it!

Meg merrilees

I don’t believe a word the M.O.D. say to us now – they have no plans to build ships here and it is criminal to string people along so ruthlessly.

Posted these links in the wee sma hours – from Alyn Smith e-mail newsletter:

UK fishermen may not regain control of UK waters. One of the drafted provisions from MEPs is that in the exit agreement with Britain there will be “no increase to the UK’s share of fishing opportunities for jointly fished stocks [maintaining the existing quota distribution in UK and EU waters]”.

link to theguardian.com

Chatham House has produced a details analysis on Devolved External Affairs concluding that Brexit will result in “significant political and institutional implications.”

link to chathamhouse.org

Also, can anyone archive the article in the herald scotland today re
Outrage as top Theresa May aide claims ‘threats of violence’ a feature of Scottish politics

Fake news- or is this a strategy the Conservatives have adopted – spread false rumour of violence up here and then bring in trouble makers?

Hmm – I smell a smell!

One_Scot

I have been of the opinion now for some time that if Scotland does return a ‘No’ vote in IndyRef2, then it will have been as a result of a ‘Dark Forces’ influence.

I honestly believe Scotland would vote ‘Yes’ given a fair platform and a fair election.

Croompenstein

@heed

“First Minister of Scotland challenged over shipbuilding claims”

BTL is pure class heed, would you like fries with that…

Quite honestly, As there is only a 50% support for being ‘British’ in Scotland we should move the shipbuilding to England, Wales and N.Ireland where its appreciated. If the SNP want to take Scotland into the abyss then the real Brits can reap the benefits. The 50% of Scotts with a chip on their shoulder can fly their flag while working in McDonalds.

Dr Jim

The Internet of Dr Moreau:

Brought to you by the makers of The BBC The Daily Mail The Express The Economist and Scotlands very own Daily Record with special mentions to every other media outlet as well

Starring Nutters from all over, Katy Hopkins “shines” in this guttershite of a story Piers Morgan “Bewilders” JK Rowling Queen of Tweets “Slavers” endlessly in this moronic tale of the weirdest island in the Atlantic

Produced and directed by The Tories
Cinematography by the BBC and special effects by Look Zoomervison Studios
Dialogue by Ruth Harrison?

This Story will be brought to an Internet near you soon with previews by the BBC 24 hours a day without let up until they break you

Will Scotland survive the onslaught?….. You decide!

Are you afraid yet?

One_Scot

What I would like to know the answer to is, how many times can the unionists lie to Scotland and for Scotland to keep believing it before we realise they will never stop lying to us?

starlaw

800 Armoured cars being made for the UK in Germany and Spain. a factory in Wales will assemble 250 of these. What possible use could the Army have for all these. Is Westminster planning a war?

Footsoldier

BBC Scotland Politics website showing it cost Scottish Government (SG) £136,000 to challenge Article 50 at the Supreme Court.

No mention at all by the BBC that the UK government refuses to say what the cost of their challenge was.

As far as I can see (pun intended)only the SG is being transparent.

Nana

bjsalba 12.46 Thanks for posting the politics link, I read so many articles I sometimes forget what I already posted. It’s good to re post relevant articles for new readers.

@Valerie
I was chatting to someone on Friday about brexit & what might happen once people realise to what extent Westminster and the media have deceived hem. I read an article recently where mps had stated they feared voting against brexit would cause hell on the streets. Should they be more worried about voting for brexit.

We had better get out and quick.

Proud Cybernat

The Union Nailed…

link to imgur.com

Robert Graham

We could cover your screen with a list of every weasel promise made , and still some people who voted “NO” would do exactly the same again vote “NO” , exactly how bad does it have to get ? , how many more times will they accept being slapped in the kisser , Well they might accept it but a whole lot of folk are are f/n tired of the Lies , the Deceit , The petty carping of every single thing that is done to help people here weather the Tory onslaught on public services and indeed industry here , I have lost count of how many friends children have had to leave our country and travel all over Europe for a decent job , and these people accept this as normal , Aye f/kn right there is another way and these arseholes know it but cant bring themselves to accept it .
End of rant .

CameronB Brodie

President Trump’s attack* on the media has also encouraged folk to take their eyes of Trump’s intentions re. human rights, the environment and public welfare. One doesn’t get where Trump is by being thick. Psychotic, perhaps.

*or more correctly his ‘Alt-Right’ handlers.

Proud Cybernat

Incase you missed it…

link to imgur.com

CameronB Brodie

Sorry, I missed mentioning the link between Trump’s backers and the Brexit buccaneers.

heedtracker

Usual nothing Scots in Graun or Observer but JC gets it. What every you say about England’s prog/libs, they are all over the shop. Graun will no doubt be destroying Scottish democracy once again soon enough vote NO camping but poor old JC,

link to archive.is

Jeremy Corbyn Opinion
I was wrong to defend Jeremy Corbyn. He has betrayed us over Brexit
Ed Vulliamy

It really is all JC’s fault, a north London Labour backbench nonentity for 30+ years. England what have you done?

Thepnr

My grandfather was a crane driver in the yards, mu old man was a welder in Fergusons on the Clyde. I served my time as a Shipwright in the Caledon in Dundee.

I know very well what shipbuilding meant to Scotland in the past.

Closing the shipyards was a purely political decision taken by Thatcher and her Tory bastard cabinet. It had little to do with economics and everything to do with destroying Trade Union power in the UK.

She was a psychopath hell bent on imposing her will on the British people. She succeeded much to the detriment of Scottish industry when coal mines closed and Steel works like Ravenscraig were demolished all for Tory ideology putting tens of thousands out of work.

That fucker Thatcher took the Great out of Great Britain.

Well it’s been mentioned a few times, but now the chicken is coming home to roost. We on Wings are just that bit ahead of the game and I’m sure more will be following soon to get us out of this hell hole.

When Scotland leaves the UK Thatcher will have completed her destruction of the UK and especially England who will feel the pain the most. She believed in the “invisible” earnings like banking and insurance and despised the “workers” especially after the three day week when the miners went on strike. Well you can’t eat something that’s invisible.

The destruction of the UK economy and the massive debt began with the destruction of industry. The UK only had an empire BECAUSE OF the industrial revolution. We made everything and shipped it all over the world. Yet we gave it all up for Thatcher’s ideology.

Madness and today’s Tories continue with that madness by taking us out of the EU and probably decimating the only thing they have left, banking. To tackle the massive debt they slash benefits to the disabled and the poorest, or even pay them nothing at all through so called sanctions.

These people are monsters without an ounce of humanity, empathy or feelings.

Pure stark raving mad fucking bonkers. Get out of it Scotland.

Robert Graham

Another one to add to the ever growing pile of promises broken .
HMRC , i pass the Tax office in Cumbernauld most mornings , and remember all the Photo opportunities that the Naw brigade were constantly presenting as fact ” Vote YES and this office closes “.
Then i see another redundancy for a poor soul in the Car Park whos job is chasing the Tax Office Employees who have no other option than to try and park there in order to get to work , thats one or more redundancies , by the time you add lost trade in the town centre , this one act has a wide ranging effect , add this closure to the many more and we are seeing a crude punishment of all people here not just the ones who voted with their brain and voted YES” but the ones who fell for the lies , now they should be really f/kn pissed , will they or have they who knows , who knows .

Dorothy Devine

Won’t an independent Scotland need a few frigates ? Could we just build some anyway?

Juan P

Probably an unpopular opinion to voice but the whole shipyard industry debate seems to be completely blown out of all proportion relative to the numbers actually employed and its significance to the wider Scottish economy.

I can’t help thinking it was only given prominence during indyref because the industry symbolises, for unionists particularly, a time when Britania ruled the waves.

I wonder if we pander to the unionist imperial mindset by expending so much time and energy arguing over this industry to the detriment of other more traditional and important ones for Scotland such as fishing.

Fred

It wouldn’t be the first time warship orders were diverted from the Clyde to the South coast for political reasons, it happened before when Tory seats were at risk there & there were none on Clydeside to worry about. In that case the English yards made such an arse of the work that the contract was re-awarded to the Glasgow shipyards, where it should have gone in the first place!

Al Dossary

@Juan P.

You are probably right at the symbolism theory. Once upon a time Scotland had some 13 or more yards in the Upper Clyde section of the water (between the Broomielaw and Clydebank). Information I recall well from my Ravenscraig days – we had an old OS map of Glasgow).

And that was only the Upper Clyde – Never mind Leith, Dundee, Greenock, Gourock, Troon or Aberdeen !

These yards provided something that was in high demand in the 1970’s – a steady stream of skilled workers already trained in the dark arts of welding, pipe fitting, electrics and instrumentation. To build the new oil rigs and refineries and power stations that were required. As did all the other heavy industries that went to the wall.

The death of these industries was already well advanced by the time Thatcher took office, but as one by one the commercial shipbuilders turned to oil rig construction, and the ship contracts went elsewhere. All except Yarrow’s, which continued limping along with the scraps thrown to it by Westminster.

The coup de grace of betrayal however has to be Harland & Wolff in Belfast. As a method of keeping the Billy Boys semi-happy, Harlands pretty much always had something or other in the yard. Right up until the Good Friday agreement that was. Once that was signed off Harlands went the same way as the other yards. Mothballed and put out to grass. Now it gets the scraps for refit etc that Fred olden the owner throws to it.

heedtracker

It was Major’s crew of toryboys that delivered the killing blows of Scottish heavy industry. We were dry docked in the Scott Lithgow yard 1995. Lovely Clyde summer too, but no idea what was really going on. All summer we watched German HGV’s cart away huge machine tools, hundreds of them, BBC Scotland gimps announced the triumph of the giant H beam crane get demolished, yay for proud Scot buts everywhere.

Port Glasgow full of all the socio economic horrors of yoon reign. Police divers searched under our rig for a murdered drug dealer, same BBC Scotland gimps breathlessly informed us. Never found the monster, but they did find his hands on the moor land behind Port Glasgow, he was 19. Old guys in the “murder bar” they called it, told us how the Greenock road would be blocked every Friday evening with the thousands of workers queuing for the pay at the pay office. That Scotlithgow yard built some of the worlds biggest most famous ships, now its filled in, for a housing estate and a tesco 24.

link to flickr.com

link to twitter.com

bjsalba

@clipper at 1:45pm

Entirely agree about the Billboards and leaflets.

HandandShrimp

Juan

I suppose the reason ship building still resonates is because it was such an iconic Scottish industry but yes, it is a shadow of its former self. Once upon a time 70,000 were employed in the yards now it is barely a couple of thousand. However, to see it go would be the end of something we were very good at. “Clyde built” was once a way of saying quality.

Nana

O/T

Some comments from folk who have gone from No to Yes

link to autonomyscotland.org

Smallaxe
heedtracker

Its odd what you remember though, of that Scott Lithgow yard. Coming up the Clyde on a big jack up was pretty spectacular but going under the Erskine Bridge, you wondered why its so high? to let the giant Clyde ships through, like the Queen Mary out of Clyde bank. They were planning for a future that never happened.

Tackety Beets

New Ref or Indyref 2 ?

I fear a much “less friendly” Yoo K MSM coming down the track , & it may not be too pretty.

Like other here, I have a couple o Yoons on my FB and the total crap they are already spoutin ….. really not pleasant.
On a rare occasion I post a “correction” with a link to some “Fact” , i do this in the slim hope there may be some reasoned folk there too , mmmm

One area I feel needs nailing SOON by SNP or YES is this trade with rUK etc

The thing is that as we are right now 90% of goods are imported into UK via an English Port or airport ( East Midlands is where a lot of commercial parcels go via) , said Co. has usually an English office/admin who acts as the Distributor /wholesaler for All the UK
Next time you are in a supermarket or shopping centre take a wee look around , almost everything you see arrived in these stores there via Engerland.

Look round your house…….nearly all via Engerland.

I have posted before about many Global Co. now operate an EU warehousing to distribute into ALL EU countries ( Goods to Scotland will still be imported by UPS etc via Engerland)

We need to make it clear if these Yoon bats want to spout trade “exports” from Scotland to rUK etc being 4 times as much as EU. Engerland in particular have the most to loose if they wish to put as much a feather in the way of any trade on our borders.

IF iScotland remains in EU(in whatever form) we can easily source everything via the said Co. in Holland or Belgium ( they have the same goods already there! ) but this may require a few changes to our ports… Rosyth etc , a few new Scottish jobs . If i was not so cynical there are a “F***ing ” load of new jobs to be generated.

Its very simple we can by pass all that additional Admin, goods may be slightly cheaper & create jobs …..loadsa joabs !

Can Anyone be bothered doing a list of stuff we really need to get from Engerland ?

Here it is ;

……………………..

……………………..

UJ flags for the yoons ………over & out !

Robert Graham

Can i suggest a little entertainment on a dull Sunday afternoon search out the Donalds man Sebastian Gorka and his encounters with our very own BBC , this guy is total theater and his defence of the Donald is classic Goebbels Propaganda at work , I have never seen so many BBC presenters Brillo nut Neil included having their Arses slapped in such a manner , he totally wipes the floor with them , i can’t provide links but he can be found either on u/tube or even the BBC I player , have fun it will i hope be worth the effort .

Nana

The aim of the informScotland billboards was to point people towards the website where there is a huge amount of information for the uninformed.

I don’t know what is planned for later but I do know it costs a lot for just 1 board. More funds will need to be raised for specific advertisements. Cadogan is unavailable right now due to elections. I believe Simon is running things and I’m still gathering information for the site.

Hamish100

I see the guy Torrance is trolling for info with a Scott Arthur of Herriot watt – labour activist. Arthur’s claim to fame is to complain about the forth road bridge. Pity labour didn’t spend money over the past 50 years on the bridge or forced the morning noes to be diverted to the trams.
link to labourhame.com

ScottishPsyche

After the demonstration of lie after lie in the past two years the difference now is that claims can be simultaneously compared to those of ongoing Brexit.

Project fear? Let the Brexiteers try to defend it when they dismissed scaremongering to win their referendum.

Can’t survive on our own, England won’t trade with us? Remember the EU needs jam and who would the Germans sell their cars to?Every argument they use can be used against them and we should.

As Brexit had changed everything, the notion that GERS is accurate when the UK government cannot even say how much they spent on a court case is laughable.

We need to confound and challenge their lies and claims at every turn starting with this deficit nonsense as it is what they have built their case on.

There is also the defensive screeching that no one wants another referendum – well we do and that is to our advantage. We have a good case now and they do not. They are defending the indefensible.

Finally it is nice that celebs and experts seem to be changing their minds but it is heartening to see that most people on the Yes side are not star struck the way the BT people were. There should be a healthy distance from celebrity.It is good that folks change their minds but they are what they are – just people like us.

HandandShrimp

One certainly senses that there is a considerable shift in the Unionist language and intensity of campaigning. From confident predictions that Nicola was bluffing we now see full blown anti-independence bluster and scrabbling…and there hasn’t been a date set yet.

The notion that Torrance would cite a serious and serial Labour activist such a Dr Von Scott as a figure of authority on SNPbaaaad is funny though.

Graeme McCormick

No surprises about BAE Systems. The MOD have been encouraging possible competitors to create joint venture company to bid against BAE for the frigates.

The MOD has gone direct to some sub contractors but not to BAE.

This information was available two years ago but didn’t hit the headlines.

Why is this not being exposed?

Some parliamentarians seem to depend on Establishment journalists for their information.

Meantime Norway is commissioning four new submarines from Germany.

tamson

There will be some encouraged by the imbalance of this. As Stu notes, 44% of No voters think most or all of the BT pledges were broken, whilst only 21% of Yes voters think most or all have been kept.

However, you have to remember there is a sizeable chunk of – mainly poorer, elderly – voters who are convinced of their own impotennce. “They wouldnae let Scotland go”, “they’ll no let Scotland go until they’ve bled us dry”, and so on. Many of those will be within that 44%, and will feel themselves doomed tovote No again.

How to deal with that mindset, I don’t know. If they can be encouraged to raise their heads, a Yes majority is in the bag.

Joemcg

Tackety-as The Pnr said quite a while back this 4X claim is basically the Rotterdam effect being used by the yoons to inflate the figures. This should be nailed pronto.

Tinto Chiel

“I’ll hear no wailing or gnashing of teeth from any mainstream journalist. They live in the world they created. Karma simply decided to repay their efforts accordingly.”

Agree completely, Macart.

Robert Graham @4.09: exactly. Seb Gorka may be the Spawn of Beelzebub/Darth Vader’s PR but he completely whacked the BBC’s finest twisters out the park. Evan Davis started spluttering and fiddling with his notes and hadn’t clue how to handle him.

BBC types are not terribly good when the shoe’s on the other foot and the interviewee takes none of their snash.

A lesson for us all there, I think, when the shit storm heading our way for Indyref2 finally arrives.

wull2

The problem is “what we were promised only a couple of years ago” and only a few people have forgotten in a two years.

Smallaxe

Robert Graham: 4;09pm

One of Nana’s links from yesterday:
link to thecanary.co

Peace Always?

mike cassidy

Tackety Beets 4.02

There is a simple reply to the question of how much trade Scotland does with rUK.

Ask them how much trade rUK does with Scotland.

And if you want to throw them a curveball –

just point out almost 70% of England’s daily electricity needs are supplied by Scotland.

Enjoy!

Smallaxe

Robert Graham:

Peace Always, I don’t know where the ? came from in my previous post to you. Apologies my friend

FairFerfochen

Good crowd for the Yes Bikers rally in Ellon today

comment image:small

Alex Salmond has a speech on The National facebook page, sotty the url is too long to post and the movie embeds and wont play as an archive.is

Saw a wings flag 😀

Robert J. Sutherland

ScottishPsyche @ 16:35:

We need to confound and challenge their lies and claims at every turn starting with this deficit nonsense as it is what they have built their case on.

Indeed we do. That and the “blood & soil” thing seem to be about all they have left that isn’t totally shredded and threadbare. (Which is not saying much.)

For the former, Footsoldier @ 11:32 got the essence of the counter to that:

When I said I was for independence, he [Tory canvasser] asked me if I was worried about Scotland’s deficit. I said I was and given it was created in the Union, time to get out.

I would even amend that slightly to “by the Union” or even “by Union mismanagement”, but (s)he got it right. Forget arguing about GERS numbers, it only amplifies the uncertainty and helps the unionists. Turn the argument round on them and the numbers don’t matter.

As for the “relatives will become foreigners” tack, I can’t believe how Labour in particular could descend to that kind of thing. Their anthem is called “The Internationale” yet their notion of solidarity apparently travels no further than Dover! And would somehow magically sever at Gretna? Maybe one antidote to that would be to make a video featuring people from overseas who are relatives of Scots, saying “we aren’t loved less because we’ve never been Scottish nationals”.

Speaking of videos, the “Journey to Yes” ones are, in my opinion, one of the most effective means yet devised of converting the “soft-no’s”. These are neither “project fear” nor “kumbaya with indy”, they are transparently not the fake products of focus group sessions (like the now-notorious “cereal woman”), but the real personal views of real people. The current three are steadily picking up views, and have the potential to go viral among people willing to re-think. Hopefully there will be many more of these to come!

The mere prospect of Brexit has already detached many former “no” voters and the invocation of Art.50 will detach many more. We need to exploit the issue of retaining full EU membership relentlessly from now on. It can out-bid the shabby UK “counter-offer” in so many ways.

While not neglecting efforts to bring back on board as many evident isolationists as possible, on the grounds that nothing has changed since 2014 except to get worse. After the indyref experience, why would they believe any UK false promises now? Learn the post-indy lesson: if they mistakenly swap sides and let this arrogant and uncaring decaying UK get back in charge, they will be ignored, trampled upon and exploited even more than ever.

mike cassidy

The Gorka/Davis interview

pot kettle black and all that

link to youtube.com

Nana

@FairFerfochen

link to facebook.com

davidb

On ships.

The yards are owned by BAE – a UK multinational. They make their crust selling weapons all over the world. Are they in on this plan to punish Scotland ( which will be buying its own armaments when it is independent) ?

If the yards are closed before independence, the options for an SNP Glasgow council, and SNP government are to firstly deny any planning consent to redevelop the sites. Once independent there is the option of compulsory purchase.

If we have a skilled workforce then is it beyond fantasy to imagine some of them being able to operate a ship building facility which is Scottish owned? Indeed is it not the case that the original yards were all private enterprises, many of them established by Scots who knew how to build ships? Perhaps it is a serious problem for a shipyard to essentially have one hostile customer anyway. Dependency is being, to paraphrase tRuthless, weaponised.

All that we need is imagination. It is precisely because of UK economic mismanagement that it is in our interest to be independent. It is in our long term interest to see our economy develop. It is in our interest to have Scots control our economy and our future. Perhaps the UK MOD is the last customer we really need.

Valerie

Barrier now outlining his process. No talks on trade deals until the bill is settled.

Piece in the FT

link to archive.is

Stoker

Todays WOS archive links now over on O/T.

Tinto Chiel

mike cassidy: thanks for that. He gets even oilier on a second viewing. Poor wee Evan.

I notice comments btl have been disabled.

I suppose we can draw our own conclusions.

Legerwood

heedtracker says:
19 February, 2017 at 3:44 pm

I thought the Queen Mary was out of service by the time they started building the Erskine Bridge in 1967 and the Queen Mary 2 was built in France.

FairFerfochen

Thanks Nana.

Robert J. Sutherland

tamson @ 17:30:

How to deal with that mindset, I don’t know. If they can be encouraged to raise their heads, a Yes majority is in the bag.

And therein lies the clue. A “letter from the young to the old”, asking them to make a bequest of a future that lies in their own hands. To put their own past behind them and trust the young and their belief in a different and better future. Written (or indeed spoken) as far as possible by young people to their own grandparents, but in any case to each older person by some (real!) young person.

I believe that such a direct personal approach could achieve great things.

mike cassidy

In case anyone wondered about my ‘pot kettle black’ remark at 6.07

The charming Mr Gorka.

link to archive.is

Legerwood

It is very convenient for a lot of people particularly the Labour Party to blame Mrs Thatcher for the decline in shipbuilding, and other heavy industries, but the truth is they were in decline long before she came on the scene.

Shipbuilding in Scotland started to decline in the 1900s although two world wars managed to mask that decline.

At the end of WWII when there was a boom in shipbuilding 20% of World shipping was built in Scotland but by 1958 it was down to 4.5%. Some shipyards in Germany could build ships in half the time it took to build them in Scottish yards.

This is a link to a list of the closure of shipyards on the Clyde from 1900 onwards
link to inverclydeshipbuilding.co.uk

If you look at the 1960s 12 yards closed the majority when Harold Wilson’s Labour Government was in power from 1964-69. Anyone know what they did to help the area cope with the loss of jobs. Labour were in power again in the 1970s what did they do to arrest the continuing decline and diversify the economy?

liz

Have to say I’m getting a bit pissed off at Neil MacKay,SH.

Apparently today he’s written a ‘plague on both your houses’.

Cybernats are as bad as cyberbrits-this is total deluded nonsense.
The amount of abuse indy supporters get from Andrew Neil, Torrance etc and the on-line abuse Nicola Sturgeon gets is horrendous.

Nil’s a bit precious and hates being disagreed with

North chiel

Starlaw@ 0203 pm , ask Fallon ( Cumberland2)??

muttley79

O/T I read the Sunday Herald today. I see there is another story about the would be Glasgow SNP councillor. How on earth did this individual get past the vetting stage? Does anyone know what is happening here, because we cannot afford many of these self inflicted own goals?

HandandShrimp

Liz

At least Neil Mackay is acknowledging that the Bitnats have a lot to answer for. Hitherto most articles covering this topic would have a one sentence get out clause “Oh and some No supporters said bad stuff too” in a 500 word article about evil cybernats.

At least some people are beginning to realise that the alarming stuff doesn’t come from us…it is the crazy right wing ultra Brits that people should worry about.

Hamish100

Mutley79

You are absolutely right. Plenty good candidates around that have been with the SNP for years but do not get a look in. Just shows the seclection process is flawed in certain areas. Pity that some candidates seem to be pushed through.

Hamish100

Selection process…. Should add there is still time to change.

muttley79

@Hamish100

I just don’t get it. Neil Hay got panned in the MSM for saying things a lot less serious that this, and the SNP basically through him under a bus. Water under the bridge now, but HTF did this character get past the vetting stage? I cannot believe that the leadership are letting him stand as a candidate. Can he not be replaced? I don’t want sympathisers of political violence on either side in Northern Ireland representing independence supporting parties.

heedtracker

“If you look at the 1960s 12 yards closed the majority when Harold Wilson’s Labour Government was in power from 1964-69. Anyone know what they did to help the area cope with the loss of jobs. Labour were in power again in the 1970s what did they do to arrest the continuing decline and diversify the economy?”

A lot, if not most of Clyde shipbuilders worked offshore North Sea. While the yards were left to rot. Much of that work ended by the late 90’s. They made guys like Sir Ian Wood rich beyond avarice too.

Post war Germany rebuilt and modernised their heavy industry, for obvious reasons, all destroyed or taken to Russia as war reparation. They make fantastic study for business managers, post war German development and modernisation, work place and production techniques, managent structures, shop floor inclusions, pay and profit share. It didn’t happen instantly ofcourse. Probably the first we saw of what German industry had modernised in to, was the mark 1 VW Golf.

Post war UK descended into class war, from 60’s on, all culminating in the Sacrgill miners strike. Tory UK won but they were in it to defeat the UK working class for good. So they destroyed much if not all UK heavy industry.

Its probably quite hard to conceive class war now, tory victors have been that efficient. Norway for example had no class war. Look at Norway today and then service economy UK.

dakk

liz says:
19 February, 2017 at 6:59 pm
Have to say I’m getting a bit pissed off at Neil MacKay,SH.

‘Apparently today he’s written a ‘plague on both your house’

Whoever the hell Neil McKay of Sunday Herald is.

A plague on his no doubt detached leafy suburban house.

These salt of the earth Yoon commentators are happy to watch Scotland raped as they look on making pompous comments from the comfort of their Establishment media sinecures.

Fireproofjim

OT
Sorry. What’s this about an snp candidate and the IRA?

Les Wilson

FairFerfochen says:

Hi,Use tinyurl.com to easy reduce long links.

bjsalba

That candidate – how old is the information that condemns him?

If we condemn people who were No out of hand, will other Noes move to YES?

PS. I would hate some of the things I said/did when young and naively stupid to come to light. Thank goodness it was well before the Internet age as I hit the lucky number plus 0 this year.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Al Dossary says at 9:32 am.

“Interesting about the unused RORO ramp in Dundee.”

I went a-Googling today and found this info…

“3rd November 1984, Page 16
A NEW Dundee-Rotterdam ro/ro service is being introduced as soon as possible by a new company Dundee Ferries, formed by Dundee Port Authority and European Freight Lines which operates a service between Tilbury and Rotterdam.

The service will use the Dundee Authority’s £500,000 ro/ro facility which was built in 1979 and never used because of the problem of finding a suitable partner over the intervening years.

It will be located at Eastern Wharf Dundee where terminal arrangements are being completed.”

“14th September 1985, Page 13
DUNDEE FERRIES has commissioned its second rollon/roll-off vessel on the Rotterdam-Dundee run and has taken an option on a third, because of promising results to date.

The second vessel came into use on September 1 and provides a major increase in the service, with the longest delay now one day.

The establishing process has been completed successfully, Dundee Ferries says, with a surprisingly high pattern of new business for Dundee.

Trailers moving into Dundee are getting return loads of between 85 and 90 per cent.”

“13th July 1985, Page 15
A PARTY of 13 Dutch trade officials is visiting Dundee this week to assess the potential of Dundee Ferries, Scotland’s new ro-ro ferry service to the European mainland (CM, July 6).

They are especially interested in the line’s potential for generating transhipment traffic at Rotterdam, including the haulage by Dutch operators of semi-trailers shipped unaccompanied from Dundee.

On the first round trip Dutch trailers outnumbered British by about five to one.

But Graham Stratton, Dundee Ferries’ operating manager, described the first few voyages by the Angus as “sea trials” which had established that the ship had the necessary speed and power in reserve to keep to schedule in bad North Sea Weather.”

This last quote has been mashed by the OCR software used by the web site but you’ll get the gist.

“17th May 1986, Page 16
Plans for revival ol Dundee-Rotterdam ro-ro vice have been deferred u the early autumn, says th, Dundee Project, the body involved in city and seafrc revival.

To avoid undue specula and to assist potential cus tomers to know where tit stand, the Project says th are no immediate plans to sume until the sununer tr trough is over.

The intention is to plan an early autumn restart.

The initial service failec capture enough return tra from Scottish hauliers and dropped after a run which showed potential without ing enough business for E dee Ferries, the operator…”

The above quotes are from links at the “Commercial Motor Archive” web site at:-
link to archive.commercialmotor.com

———————————————
To finish off…

Thepnr mentioned the Caledon. This link has a photo of a young Doon at the launch of the Diomed, in April 1956, around my 4th birthday.
link to dundee3js.freeforums.org

Thepnr – there are quite a number of posts (5 pages of them!) about the Caledon at this page:-
link to dundee3js.freeforums.org

muttley79

@Fireproofjim

Yes, unfortunately so. I think his name is Casey, he is a SNP candidate for Glasgow council. He has apparently in the past posted on social media his praise of IRA volunteers, and his hatred of the British army, specifically the SAS, and I think the parachute regiment as well. It appears that he has also attended Republican flute band parades in commemoration of his heroic ‘heroes’. A PR disaster in other words, and it appears completely self inflicted one at that. Not happy…I don’t want Scotland to get dragged into Northern Ireland’s violent divides.

ronnie anderson

@ Muttley79
Hamish 100. 7.39.

If your referring to Alan Casey ( pro IRA sympathiser) as a SNP candidate for GCC elections ,Casey was selected on appeal as was Graham Campbell formerly ( rise ) Anne McGlaughlin MP partner ) . The cliques are at work in Proven /Denniston Glasgow Nth east branches , it will only get worse as the Selection / Disciplinary committee’s are of one & the same CLIQUE. Ivan McKee MSP didn’t handle the matter in the 1st instance & it didn’t help matters when people complained at a branch meeting & were told by Ivan to fucking shut up . F/Book Yes2Provan.

Fireproofjim

Thanks Mutley 79.
You are right. That is a potential PR disaster. Imagine what the MSM will make of that. “SNP supports terrorists who killed Scottish soldiers”
What were the vetting committee thinking of? Did they know? Can they revisit admitting a mistake?
We are NOT a terrorists supporting organisation.

muttley79

@bjsalba

Not disputing the fact that a lot of us have said and done stupid things in the past. That is one thing, this is another ball game entirely imo.

That candidate – how old is the information that condemns him?

It appears from around 2012 so not that long ago. He is commemorating people who were prepared to kill for their political cause, and who died way back in the 1990s FFS. I would feel exactly the same if it was a Loyalist sympathiser, obviously more unlikely to represent the SNP, but it would be as equally as bad. No time for this shit.

CameronB Brodie

Globalisation has been happening in waves, since about the time of the Acts of Union. Throughout this evolutionary process, Britain has struggled to retain the capital it generates, with British industrialists and capitalists finding better returns on their investments in lower-waged economies. This continues today and has left an historical legacy of under-investment in plant and skills, which further undermine industrial competitiveness. The shipbuilding was on shaky ground before Thatcher, though her hostility to unionised labour was the final straw.

IMHO, Scotland’s response to it’s global circumstances, has been most hindered by being bound to a casino banking system characterised by interest rates best suited to an over-heated south-east of England. Scotland has massive latent development potential just waiting to be unleashed by the correct economic conditions and levers. We’ll have to do something with all that oil and renewables though.

Unleash the beast!

Brian Doonthetoon

I think my last on Ro/Ro…

The first Ro/Ro facilities were used in Scotland, devised by Thomas Bouch, the builder of the first, ill-fated Tay Railway bridge, and commenced in 1850.

Ferries took trains across the Forth, between Granton and Burntisland and across the Tay, between Tayport and Broughty Ferry.

More info here:-
link to cityinspired.com

ian m

We also have Trident as a huge bargaining chip with regards to the shipyards.I would consider taking a bunch of those shop stewards and a few regular workers over to Norway to look at how they have been successful.If we can get our act together perhaps we can get some work from elsewhere in the world as well as our own needs to safeguard our fishing rights.While Brexit is going on our government can have Business & Development teams out looking for new business

galamcennalath

Robert J. Sutherland says:

Written (or indeed spoken) as far as possible by young people to their own grandparents, but in any case to each older person by some (real!) young person.

Yes, good plan. Target the young and get them to target older family members.

Also, target the young to get off their arses and vote, particularly the 18-25 age group. Their voting rate lags behind their grandparents by 30%!

Also …

Target EU citizens. Those that voted in 2014 voted NO because they believed that was they way to guarantee Scotland in the EU. Next time, they should ALL encouraged to vote YES.

Polls show a big movement of NO to YES because of Brexit. Alas a similar number have moved the other way! They need worked on to highlight that Indy should be the priority over everything else. If they were YES in 2014, they need to be YES again.

And finally … every 2014 NO voter has to be considered a potential convert. Farmers, fishermen, oil industry, financial services, everything …. because everything will be hit by Brexit.

muttley79

@ronnieanderson

If that is right about the situation then that is bad, bad news. There is apparently a part of the SNP in Lanarkshire that have gone rogue in the last few years; last thing we need is for problems in Glasgow before the council elections. Disappointed if that is true about Ivan McKee, as he used to post on here, and seemed an intelligent guy.

@fireproofjim

I would punt him as a candidate, and give the vetting people in that constituency a severe dressing down.

We are NOT a terrorists supporting organisation.

Exactly!

BBC Scotland Tells Lies

Legerwood 6.29pm

“I thought the Queen Mary was out of service by the time they started building the Erskine Bridge in 1967 and the Queen Mary 2 was built in France”

Many large ships have passed under the Erskine Bridge since it opened.

Also UIE in Clydebank built the Morcombe Bay jack-up rigs in the 1980s and when being were towed down river with their legs fully up, they only missed the bridge by inches.

And hopefully we will need that height in the bridge for future orders in the Upper Clyde.

McDuff

Legerwood

If shipbuilding was in terminal decline at that time how come countries like France and Finland were building huge ocean liners when we were closing our yards. Thatcher deliberately dismantled the manufacturing industry in Scotland which was starved of any meaningful investment.

Brian Powell

How do folks who THINK somebody’s name is Casey then know so many details about that person, I wonder?

bjsalba

@at 8.28pm

You say “it appears”. Whart is the source of your information?

Oh and by the way, 5 years is a long time in politics especially for a young person. Maybe not so much for an old fogey like me.

ronnie anderson

@ Brian Powell

BECAUSE his name is Casey ?.

twathater

I worked in most of the shipyards on the Clyde ,Fairfields ,John Browns ,Stephens , Scott Lithgow , In Dundee Robb Caledon , Aberdeen Hall Russell and others , in all of these places and yards they all faced the same problem , under investment , the usual GREED, don’t invest in new technology take as much as you can sorry ( steal ) as much as you can with no thought to the future , who cares about the workers there are plenty more to be sacrificed .When they began to fail it was up to the good old Labour to disown them .

Scotland’s fate to put up with greed and incompetence When will we wake up