Why the Lib Dems are idiots
Yeah, we know, that could be a really long article. But we have a specific thing in mind.
Over the last few days, Jo Swinson and Willie Rennie have both endured toe-curling interviews trying to defend the comically-indefensible hypocrisy of the party’s positions on Brexit and independence.
(If you haven’t been following, official policy now is that a Lib Dem election win is a clear and unimpeachable mandate to carry out their manifesto promises, but an SNP election win isn’t a mandate to carry out theirs.)
But it’s not the mere crass, transparent hypocrisy that makes them stupid.
The double standard makes the party look ludicrous, hands media and opponents a huge stick to beat them with, and may ironically scupper their chances of stopping Brexit by making a Remain alliance impossible. But the truly idiotic thing about it is how pointless it is.
Because the Lib Dems are in no position to either grant or block a second indyref, and are stupendously unlikely ever to be. They simply don’t have the numbers. It literally doesn’t matter what their view is, so why make it such a suicidally brainless one?
What if they just said “We don’t believe in a second indyref, and if you elect us to government there won’t be one, but if the SNP win an election on that manifesto then obviously the rules are the same for them as they would be for us, so they’d get to have one”?
The Liberal Democrats are never going to win a majority at Westminster or Holyrood in a hundred years, so they’ll never have to go along with that eventuality. By merely SAYING they would, they’d get to look like decent and principled grown-ups respecting the wishes of voters, at no cost.
(UK voters pretty much don’t give a toss if Scotland has an indyref or not, and are also willing to sacrifice Scotland to get Brexit, so there’d be no electoral downside.)
And if the world’s gone SO completely bananas that they did win the election and Jo Swinson was the next Prime Minister? They’re the Lib Dems. Everyone expects them to break their promises anyway.
It’s fine to oppose independence. It’s allowed. Willie Rennie made a perfectly valid point on Sunday Politics Scotland at the weekend when he said it wasn’t undemocratic for him to vote against independence in Parliament if he’d campaigned on a manifesto saying he’d do that.
But what certainly IS undemocratic is opposing the entire concept of democracy, which is what the current position amounts to. You can’t say there is NO peaceful route by which Scotland can choose its own future, that the campaign for independence ended forever on 18 September 2014. Even the Lib Dems know that’s not how it works.
People are allowed to change their minds, just like when Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems – including the then Westminster MP Willie Rennie – stood up in the Commons a few short years ago and hotly demanded an in-out EU referendum (even going so far as to walk out of the chamber en masse when it was refused), but now say that David Cameron “cannot be forgiven” for holding one.
People know. People remember. You look like an idiot, or worse.
When you have no meaningful say in whether something happens or not, and therefore the luxury of being able to adopt any position on it you feel like, taking an ultra-hardline stance that makes you appear to be a ridiculous bunch of intransigent clowns is the sort of completely unnecessary, self-inflicted stupidity that demonstrates why you should never be allowed to have that power, and why you never will.
She’s an out and out Tory and a media construct.
If we had a proper media she would be called out and even the unenlightened idiots that for the fence sitters party would be able to see exactly what she is
And Boris ducked a Press conference poor soul got booed on the way in Luxembourg PM had a field day standing next to an empty podium .Boris excuse to noisy outside .
Maybe Jo Wullie and Chukka should have ducked the cameras as well.
Jo says no need for peoples vote just cancel Brexit .
No Indy ref
Lib Dems meet the new Tories
It’s even more stupid to adopt their cancel Brexit position. If you take Ms Swinsobs seat as an example- she is now very unlikely to get re-elected as all of the people who want Brexit will not vote for her; and all the independence supporters will also avoid her. I don’t think they have thought this through.
Why would anyone vote for any party with leaders called, wee Willie Rennie,wee Dick Leonard or the one with no leader at all?
Swinson knows that if we had IndyRef2 Yes would win meaning her seat would cease to be a Westminster one. Meaning firstly she would have to cease being FibDem leader and secondly either look like a carpetbagger going for an English seat or having to stand for Holyrood which she would see as a huge demotion.
So I am utterly unsurprised by this position. Her job and status relies on it.
Had to change my name to Jeely due to fruit season being upon us!
They are hotfooting from one spur-of-the-moment-idea to the next. Whispers of coalitions with the Tories at the next GE (seriously …how the f*** does that work? A party that is determined to remain in Europe potentially could have a coalition with the Tories who are literally wearing the clothes of the Brexit Party …how do you resolve the issue of Europe in a coalition government?) It’s absolutely insane.
Ever since Swinson became leader, they are all over the place. And if they did decide to go into bed with Boris (or whoever is the next Tory leader) …have they not forgotten what happened to Clegg after his huge blunder? Millions of Lib-Dem voters will never forgive the Liberals if they jump into bed with literally what is their nemesis.
And as for Rennie …the sooner he is voted out of Holyrood, the better for everyone here. The guy is so determined to keep Scotland attached to the Union, that he willing to ignore the very pillars that democracy is built on, just to spite Scottish nationalists.
But one thing is for sure …we really do live in interesting times. I have never seen British politics in such a terrible state. It’s literally 70 years of every lie, every piece of political manipulation and every form of denial all come home to roost.
Suck it up Unionists …you’ve caused this carnage.
Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo
Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.
When we were first acquent,
You were ain young Liberal,
Wi’ aw’ your principles spent.
An’ now you’re aulder, Jo,
Wi’ ither principles, mich like the snaw;
Whan comes yon sun o’ spring, doth thaw.
Aye, Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.
Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.
We’d never work thegither;
And manys a cantie day, Jo,
We had wi’oot ane anither:
Now I maun to gae my way, Jo;
Free o’ you – to indy, I maun go,
An’ be rid o’ ye – aye, better wi’oot ye.
Aye, Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.
[With acknowledgements]
Strange watching how the bbc dumped ruth for not supporting boris and now promoting swinson.
Thebbc can be counted on to not highlight this absurd position
Both are bbc constructs and will rise or fall as the bbc desire
Call kaye
Before i totally give up on this and leave these to fester on a Chinese quayside, heres an opportunity to prove its only a few ‘woke’ individuals in the SNP who think flags, marches and demos, let alone referendums, have no part to play in gaining our nations independence link to gofundme.com
Och they are just stomping their pathetic tiny feet to get some attention, and just maybe distract from all the s**t that’s been going on, is going on, and will continue to go on, in UKOK. Remember the Britnats’ 2014 ‘UKOK’ anyone? UKnotOK more like!
Libdems, doing the Tories a few favours, as usual.
Unfortunately Boris Johnson as Prime Minister kind of disproves your final point.
JLT well said!!!
Every No voter has this on their hands!!!!
Wonder if most of them will think when they get a chance to redeem themselves that one shockingly bad decision in a life time is enough.
I might just about forgive them if they do!!!!
I think you might be surprised at how many votes the lLib dems take with a manifesto of remain. The problem we have, is why is Sturgeon not doing the same thing with independence ?
Politicians have always been a bit loose with facts, they will use stats to produce a number that makes them look good. But the last few years they have gone from fact manipulation to outright lying. They are destroying any semblance of public trust in them, it wasn’t too high to start with.
Jo Swinson is just a fantasist if she actually believes she can be PM, the narcissism has taken over from reality in this case.
The LibDem’s are moving into dangerous ground by suggesting there is effectively no peaceful way too independence. I think the Liberals have a track record here in Ireland.
No no no no, people DON’T remember. I had totally forgotten about the libdem walk-out protesting not getting a brexit referendum, and I wish I had remembered so I could have pointed it out to all those people that were following the media line that the SNP were just grandstanding when they did their mass walk-out, oh the disruption those terrible SNP nationalists cause never seen the like before in Westminster aren’t they such barbarians etc.
And, really, is anything the LibDems do, except in coalition with Tories, ever that memorable?
Repeated reminders are absolutely essential.
Unfortunately, the IS no peaceful route by which Scotland can choose it’s own future.
Bob Costello at 6.24
That’s a cracker,Bob. You’ve obviously been asleep.
As I keep saying, they HAVE changed their minds for well over a year as per this EU produced poll of UK polls tracker.
link to politico.eu
Plus 54% voted for parties against a no deal brexit at the last election.
Can even the maddest of no deal brexiteers put their hand on their hearts and say that if ‘Leave with a no deal brexit’ and remain had been the ballot options in 2016 that Leave would still have won? Even allowing for the fact most did not fully appreciate the consequences back then I am sure Leave would have been roundly defeated.
We rise to the level of our own incompetence seems to be so apt
I liked Jo Swinson much better when I’d never heard of her or knew who she was.
I think her strategy is pure opportunism and cynicism. She thinks, in a General Election, Labour is unelectable under Corbyn, and the Tories will see their vote split between the Tories and the Brexit Party, and thus, in England without the SNP, the conventional two horse race is suddenly a four horse race, and the distance between 1st and 4th will be tight, with The LibDems hoovering up disgruntled Remainers from wherever they can find them.
Brexit? Who cares? They’re Lib Dem’s. They’d throw their granny under a bus if they thought it would further their political goals.
It’s bad news for Anti Brexit Remainers. I actually feel sorry for them. No coalition however loose is big enough to contain Jo Swinson’s ego, and it would seem no political party is big enough to contain Chuka Umunna’s.
Any plan which relies on the Lib Dems isn’t really a plan.
No win Joss
A wee anagram for a no party.
Are Ruth Swinson and Jo Davidson twins? They both have the same parent – BBC Scotland.
@ Tartan pigs 6:19pm:
Thanks for reposting, I’d lost the link..
Just donated.
Now how do I get a fleg?
@ Tartanpigsy at 6.19
a) have you asked the Scottish Independence Foundation for assistance? They’ve helped us a couple of times, and I’d have thought your project was the sort of thing they’d really like.
b) I do see the value of flags, marches and demos; but I’ve currently got dozens of flags (courtesy of Aye Mail) which had the potential to make our group a small profit – so far I haven’t even recouped the carriage costs. I realize that a fully-fledged campaign is a different context, but right now I’d welcome the wing mirror socks, and above all the car window flags, because that’s what I am regularly asked for, rather than large flags. (I know you can’t change what you’ve specified at this late stage, and that you don’t plan to release them yet.)
If I’m representative, maybe that’s why you’ve not had the response you hoped for and deserve.
Tartanpigsy@6.19pm
188 donors. That is a disgrace. A very sad state of affairs.
Why are the BBC getting away with being so biased, the more you look at it the more you realise there’s not such a thing as a free democratic society where everyone can have a say, everything’s controlled especially the media.
This is the same Jo who could not account for the thousands of extra leaflets found after the last election, who charged us for her eye liner and everything else she could lay her hands on, who voted more times with the tory austerity prolicies than Michael Gove, who according to EVEL cannot pass English laws as a PM (however unlikely) and who is a paid up member of the fibdems.
She pays no attention at all to her Scottish Constituency, lives down south and only visits occasionally to ape ruthie with her no indyref2. Her complete lack of self awareness about EU Article 50 repeal with a mandate but no matter what kind of mandate the SG has we are not allowed indy2.
Sheer hypocricy and stupidity on every level.
Jo just had a car crash interview on CH4 News but could it be with Ruth out the way .Lib Dems are now going after the Scottish Tory vote.
On Ch4 news interview Swinson said if they won a majority of seats at Westminster they would would revoke Article 50 but seemed to suggest they would not have the power to have a 2nd euro ref. Does anybody know if EVEL would allow her to be PM?
“This is the one that got away”.
Guy Verhofstadt at the Lib Dem conference just announced the demise of Nation states and the age of “Empires”. He of course means that the EU should be one of these competing “Empires”
His every remark was greeted with whoops of delight and at the end he was cheered to the rafters.
Bizarre.
Two-thirds of Mark Smith would have to vote LibDem for Willie Rennie to self-ID as Jo Swinson.
cynicalHighlander says:
16 September, 2019 at 7:00 pm
No win Joss
_______
Adapted – and thanks to cynicalHighlander for the idea:
Jo S wins? No!
@Lenny Hartley
Any MP could be PM but if you are not from England there are many areas you could not vote on (I believe the can vote but it is effectively binned), including some parts of the WM budget, any NHS legislation, education legislation. A PM that could not vote on major areas of legislation at WM seems something of a problem.
Tartanpigsy at 616pm,
Please keep re-posting the link, since like many, I’ll donate near end of month. Post it, until people are sick of seeing it. Some don’t come on here every day.
Come on folks, let’s get behind this fundraiser, well organised, and makes a big, big difference. If you can spare a wee bit cash, then please donate and get us the SCOTLAND flags we will need, for campaigns AND for the independence day celebrations!!
link to gofundme.com
@dadsarmy
The unionists must be getting really worried if they are going for the two thirds majority option. That means 34% can keep you in the union, and Yes would require over 2.4 million votes with the same turnout as 2014.
It is actually worse than the 40% rule, if 2014 was reversed and it was 2m Yes, 1.6m no it would pass the 40% rule but not the 2/3rd rule.
Mark Smith is at it when he says nobody would dream of using the 40% rule now, that’s because he wants it even more unlikely that Yes could win.
Lenny Hartley @ 7.33 pm.
Probably doesn’t answer your question directly – but maybe a useful starting off point. Seems if (a massive if) swansong did be become PM she would not have a say in any England-only or England and Wales-only legislation.
A bizarre situation for a Prime Minister of this Disunited Kingdumb, I’m sure you’d agree.
link to gov.uk
J Galt says:
‘Guy Verhofstadt at the Lib Dem conference just announced the demise of Nation states and the age of “Empires”
I think I know what Verhofstadt is saying, but from a completely different perspective of what most people think of as ’empires’.
Look at it this way …the EU to a degree has been living in partial denial of the very modern nation state until this year. Almost 30 years ago, we had the breakup of the Soviet empire. From it came not only came the freedom of Eastern Europe (Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc), but also new states that broke physically away from Russia (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, etc). That was 30 years ago.
Then almost 20 to 10 years ago, we saw the breakup of Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Serbia …with the ascension of Croatia, Serbia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc …but also Macedonia and Kosovo.
What do you think is going to happen next?
This is the EU’s greatest fear …the breakup of the modern Western European nation state. That means the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Belgium. Nationalism, and the idea of it, has been spreading westwards since the fall of the Soviet Empire. Over the last 5 years, the EU has now and again stated that it doesn’t want to see the breakup of the Western Countries into smaller states …and yet, it is inevitable. So much so, that on Sunday, Herman Van Rompuy, the former president of the European Council and one of the guys who sat on the fence when it came to Scotland being an independent nation in the EU, believes the EU has to change. He now believes that the EU might have to look ahead long term to having small multi-national states within the EU. That would mean Scotland, Wales, a United Ireland, Wallonia, Flanders, Catalonia, Bavaria, Brittany, Occitania, Normandy, Basque nation, etc all becoming independent nation states within the greater sphere of the EU.
What does that mean?
Basically what Verhofstadt has hinted at, is the EU becoming a European super power where all the nation states are independent, but are part of the EU, and basically being part of an ‘influential empire’ on the world stage. This isn’t about finding colonies and ruling over other non-European peoples or nations, but rather, using the tactics of the 19th Century British Empire by using trade as ‘the weapon of war’.
An ‘informal empire’ one could say.
So …in summary, it won’t mean the end of our quest for Scottish independence (or that of any other small state within one of the Western European nations), but rather gaining it, and then becoming a member of the European Union along with all the other European states, thus creating a more powerful entity.
Simply put, it would be on the lines of the old Holy Roman Empire which was a medieval European super power made up of hundreds of independent states and ruled by an emperor, but in our most modern age, governed by the Parliament in Brussels.
This I believe, is what Verhofstadt is envisaging.
Lenny Hartley @ 7.33 pm.
Probably doesn’t answer your question directly – but maybe a useful starting off point. Seems if (a massive if) Swansong did become PM she would not have a say in any England-only or England and Wales-only legislation.
A bizarre situation for a Prime Minister of this Disunited Kingdumb, I’m sure you’d agree.
link to gov.uk
Looks like a dilemma for any elections down Bath way. Possibly at least one cock and balls appearing on any ballot lol!
But as @Contrary says, the electorate do tend to have a passing aquaintance with memory when it comes to politics – Politicians rely on it. They’ll pick up votes in England because they are not Labour or the Tories, and they’ll pick up votes in Scotland because… well, Scotland.
They’re not the SNP, but are anti Brexit, Boris isn’t the nice Tories like Ruth and Labour are still Communists aren’t they?
It is a dilemma for her in East Dunbartonshire right enough.
Too much time in England and one missed bin collection and she’ll be out on her arse.
The huge puzzle in all this is, what do residual LibDem voters believe they are voting for?
Nostalgia, brand loyalty, their favourite colour, who knows.
Name a policy and sometime over the last ten years or so the LibDems will have both supported it and opposed it! They have no principles and no fixed policies. And their lack of honesty outdoes even the other BritNat parties!
Despite their obvious stupidity and hypocrisy, this is actually a logical extension of their “keep both unions” stance ever since the EU referendum result. This will lead to a day of reckoning for them very soon, as they have always boasted that they were the most Europhile party of them all. When the UK leaves the EU, that bluff will be well and truly called and they will have to choose which of the two unions they like best.
Looking at their future, their Europhile credentials will be exposed as superficial at best, when they refuse to back independence in Europe. Conversely, when they double down on UK unionism, the only way to save that Union will be to accept the EU referendum result – and then they’ll be Poundshop Tories.
Interesting times ahead whatever happens, perhaps even an extinction event for them.
I guess that they have calculated that independence only matters to scottish voters, where they are trying to get the no-remain vote and this will distinguish them from the snp, as it’s only here that they have serious competition for the remain vote). Whereas elsewhere in the uk, they are going for the remain vote full stop and this particular hypocrisy won’t be noticed.
John
Heard quite a lot from Swinson on the radio today.
Am I alone in thinking she has two distinct accents?
One an 80/20 Scottish/English mix, the other a 20/80, depending on who sticks a microphone in front of her pus.
As “Shug” alluded to, the BBC always has a “pet project”.
For the past year or three, their “pet” has been Truthless. They must have become bored with Truthless because they have replaced her with Joe Swansong.
“When will they ever learn?”
The BBC seems to think that we don’t communicate with each other, by various means. Their days are numbered as well…
It’s all about careers, self-advancemenr. They know that a large proportion of the UK electorate doesn’t follow politics and the news closely, and vote on the basis of impressions and snippets of information. So the Lib Dems can get away with acting against their pre-election policies, and at worst there’ll be jobs and honours when they’re chucked out.
@jfngw
It’s frightening that there are anti-democrats like Mark Smith and Willie Rennie still around these days.
But they are stupid; it gives us the chance to say:
“It was people like you who prevented Scotland getting Devolution in 1979, and delayed what over 90% of Scots now thing is a great thing – Devolution – by 18 years”.
“And it’s people like you who’d delay us Independence by more false undemocratic hurdles, not just for 18 years, but for ever if you had your tin despotic undemocratic way”.
The problem for the Lib-Dems is that they worry that if they don’t have ‘clear-blue-water’ between themselves and the Tories, their share of the vote will be squeezed.
So they think that saying YES to democracy is the vote winner in England, and saying NO to democracy is the vote winner in Scotland!
Willie is probably hoping to hoover-up some of Ruth Davidson’s voters, who do not agree with the new moves to distance the Tories in Scotland from the Westminster party.
Jo Hopes that she can hoover up a lot of the voters who want another referendum in England.
They both end up looking like a couple of complete hypocrites, as do the whole party.
It’s almost as if the only way they could ever be true to themselves is to choose to do what’s best for the country they are elected to serve.
And Wullie, Jo, in case you forgot:
That’s Scotland!
Maybe old news 2hrs ago:
A parliamentary candidate for the Liberal Democrats has been deselected after he was reported as saying Tories should be “burned at the stake”.
Galen Milne stood for the party in Banff and Buchan at the 2017 general election.
In an online post naming leading Brexit supporters, Mr Milne is alleged to have said they should be “hung, drawn and quartered” before being burned.
Mr Milne has said he deeply regrets the “offensive statements”.
From University fees, through the privatization of the NHS and the lowering of taxes for millionaires and billionaires, the further impoverishment of those in poverty through the heinous welfare bill and the imposition of the bedroom tax on poor people with nowhere to move… this woman is for the House of Lords if she can topple enough of her principles to do the Tories bidding.She is doing very well out of her support for the Tories.
link to caltonjock.com
I particularly liked hearing Swinson insist that her party was going to win the imminent election.
That it would be for the first time in over 100 years and that it would require something in the order of a 3000% increase in the number of MPs elected compared to the last election…
…Did not seem to be an obstacle.
Welsh Sion thanks
Leni Kuenssberg certainly full on Johnson propaganda tweeting today.
LibDems are labeled with all sorts of descriptives.
Yellow Tories, Watered Down Tories, Careerists, Hypocrites, Tory Stooges – all true.
But they most definitely are British Nationalists to the core. English Nationalist enablers.
call me dave
Galen Milne used to post rabid Unionist diatribes on the Scotsman and Herald sites ten or more years ago … perhaps he regrets saying it but he sure as shit won’t regret thinking it.
London unionist leaders in Scotland trying to outdo each other on how they would stamp down on the Scots if the choose the SNP. Willie Rennie declares Scotland will be his bitch to do what he want with when he is London’s gangmaster in Scotland.
OT but I thought I would give you the benefit of recent experience. I visited Hungary, Slovakia and Austria on holiday in the last few weeks. I travelled from Budapest to Bratislava by train, the train being a regular Budapest to Prague service. The buffet car on the train happily, readily and easily accepted Hungarian forints, Euros and Czech kroner as payment, no-one blinked an eyelid. Shops, cafes, bars in Budapest accepted multiple currencies as payment.
At Budapest Nyugati station, they were happy to accept forints, euros, kroners as payment for train tickets. At the start of our holiday, arriving at Budapest airport, the taxi driver accepted forints or euros, he was happy to quote a price.
We travelled by train from Hungary to Slovakia, and by boat on the Danube from Slovakia to Austria. We weren’t asked to show passports when we booked train tickets from Budapest to Bratislava, weren’t asked for passports on the train, weren’t asked to show passports from Bratislava to Vienna on the boat service, on departure or arrival. It was easier than negotiating Scot Rail and LNER.
What is the yoons’ problem, when the rest of Europe happily co-exists, with regular, frequent, cross border, cross currency travel and currency conversion?
Don’t the libDems realise that if voters in england want a Tory,they’ll just vote for an independent conservative as the will no doubt be called?
They will vote for a real Tory,like they did in both 2015 and 2017.
*(they) will no doubt be called.
J Galt says:
at 7:33 pm
“Guy Verhofstadt at the Lib Dem conference just announced the demise of Nation states and the age of “Empires”. He of course means that the EU should be one of these competing “Empires”
His every remark was greeted with whoops of delight and at the end he was cheered to the rafters.
Bizarre.”
Bizarre? If this is as you say, the PM Swinson fantasy is dead.
And maybe our EU status too.
Goodness me, Cherry and Co as respondents to the appeal by Keen, the Tories’ Advocate General over Scotland for the UK Gov, are certainly not being shy and timid. For instance:
“Let English law, if it is deficient in this regard, be brought up to the standards by which the Executive is called to account under Scots law. That is what is required of this court, acting as a constitutional court for the Union as a whole.”
link courtesy of Nana in previous thread:
link to dropbox.com
Incidnetally, it occurs to me this is the natural precursor above, for any appeal to the UKSC against any decision for the case being brought direct to the Inner House of the Court of Sessions, over the exclusive right that court has to put the court’s signature on a request to the EU-27 for a 3 month extension if BoJo gets booed and refuses to sign it himself, as he mewls and pukes into his bib and says “mama it isn’t fair, wahwahwah”.
I’m still voting for them in the next election since I agree with their policy of revoking article 50. Am I crazy?
But I really really love this bit:
“It is not for this court to trespass upon or over-rule the Court of Session’s understanding of the extent of the supervisory jurisdiction of this court.”
a bit of a girfuy Salmond would have been delighted with.
Good grief – Alistair Carmichael was on BBC Ulster today saying the same thing – neither of them were challenged to explain how the NO campaign maintained that the only way to stay in Europe was to vote NO
it was from 12 to 12.45 today if anyone is arsed to listen
Can someone ask Swansong how she might overcome EVEL?
Westminster can’t have a Scottish based Prime Minister as they
Wouldn’t be allowed to be privy to matters affecting England only.
Another case of our 2 nations Not being in an equal partnership.
No one has given the Liberal parasite party a majority in over 100 years
and not likely for the next 100 years.
Fib Dems with only a fraction of the SNP – MP’s always have their new
Leader questioned about all and anything political?
Why is it the 3rd Biggest party doesn’t exist in the media unless there is an
Opportunity to bad mouth the SNP?
Poor Chuka’s new leader is a Zoomer!
That’s funny, I just read the Jolyon thread and a couple of others picked up on exactly the same paragraph as I did 🙂
This is good reading for anyone feeling despondent, worth taking the time wading through it – and perhaps also reading the numbered notes / footnotes. It’ll cheer you up, even if it’s just that there are some people think Scotland is worth more than a handful of shite, a kick up the arse – and the sheer and utter hyprocisy of two members of a political party that should be thoroughly ashamed of the both of them.
How low the LibDems have sunk, into the gutter 🙁
And yet Swinson is one of the respondents / original appellants in the CoS, even knowing it’s Cherry of the SNP is the prime mover apart from Jolyon, she put her name to is as did Ian Murray. It’s like being totally dual standards, split personality stuff.
@J Galt (7.33), JLT (7.59)
Thanks for drawing attention to Guy Verhofstadt’s speech re the EU becoming an Empire. I remember Manuel Barroso’s comments in 2014 about the EU being a non-imperial Empire. Given the nature of empires, why on earth would this be a desirable goal?
They also seem to have forgotten that all empires fall. The Austro-Hungarian, the Ottoman, the Russian, the German and the British all ended in the twentieth century. We see the US empire failing in front of our eyes.
Is this an example of hubris?
What an amazing painting …
link to barrons.com
… and very appropriate!
Mmm, nicely scathing about the Divisional Court(s):
“The Divisional Court decision certainly in practice amounts to an abdication of its constitutional responsibility and results in a déni de justice. It should not be followed by this court.“. Could be a quiet
resignationretiral later in the year.A hard rain is gonna fall on the Lib Dems for setting themselves against Scotland’s right to self-determination.
Willie Rennie is going to need a mackintosh.
yeah, this is the interesting section: “4. SCOTTISH CONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND THE UK CONSTITUTIONAL COURT” and … anyway, enough about that! But you have to laugh at this bit:
a beautiful example of a circular argument. At least in terms of set theory 🙂
Swinson and EVEL? My understanding is If she ended up as PM ,She could speak up for an evel act, but not vote for or against it, Cameron said that more or less ,when he announced it and to show just what an arse he is,
If it was a tied vote,Swinson couldn’t vote to pass it
Only English constituency MPs can vote
She could be a modern Alec Douglas-Home
Think that’s about right
I don’t think Ian Brotherhood is keeping up with comments ‘off-topic’…
Lib Dems playing with democracy big time now.
Just heard on the news that they are planning to do deals with other candidates/parties at any GE to try and ensure that Remain backing candidates win as many seats as possible.
‘It worked well at the Brecon and Radnor recent by-election’ says Swinson. It returned a Lib Dem seat.
link to bbc.co.uk so in England it’s ok because it is a First past the post system and she admits toplaying the system. She has always been in favour of electoral reform…
and they deny doing a deal with the Tories in the Shetland by-election to keep the SNP out.
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Worse than the Tories in my eyes…
There were a hell of a lot of Tories in the Lib Dems before all the Tories joined recently. It is not even a Tory Lite party any more. It is pro EU wing of the Tory party.
As for Swinson and Rennie, how they can keep a straight face over their blatant “mandate” hypocrisy is beyond me. I have absolutely no problem with the notion that a Lib Dem win in the GE is a mandate to cancel A50. An SNP win is a mandate to go for Indyref2. This isn’t rocket surgery. I think the latter is a more likely outcome though.
Ex Supreme Court judge on Newsnight stating that by convention they should rule on the parliament recall by taking the English judgement. His basic statement was there can be no difference in the constitutional law in Scotland and England, by inference then English law is supreme.
Doesn’t bode well if this is the mindset of the judges, by default if there is a difference in judgement it is natural to assume that English law is correct.
jfngw
my understanding is that when a Scottish case is heard in the Supreme Court, they have to judge to by Scots Law, likewise for a N. Irish case it would be a senior N. Irish Lawlord who would lead the hearing.
This time it is probably complicated by the fact that there have three hearings, Joanna Cherry in Scotland, Raymond Mc Cord in N.Ireland and the Gina Miller case in London. Two courts found the prorogation was not illegal, only Scotland says illegal.
There will be 11 judges hearing the case tomorrow instead of the usual 9.
Admiral. 9.26pm.the yoons problem is they dont like mixing or socialising with those derty furriners, their not British (english) dontcha know.
@meg merrilees
I agree it is Scots Law but not all the judges I presume will be Scots lawyers by qualification. I was just highlighting the mindset of the judge on Newsnight, if you already have the opinion that English Law has made the correct decision then it must colour your judgement.
On another subject (nothing to do with the reply above).
It’s strange how unionists claim it would be stupid to split Scotland from England and break up an island into two separate countries. At the same time they support the division of Ireland into two countries and don’t see any hypocrisy.
She is in it for the money, she wants the big increase of salary. The ministerial car. Just like Clegg and the rest of them.Total charlatans.
Rennie knows that in an Independent Scotland he would be out. He would do more good driving a bus. Hope all these LibDems get voted out. That’s something to look forward to for a change.
They could not make a bigger mess. An absolute shambles. It is just unbelievable. The cheating lies. An absolute scandal. A total embarrassment.
@Meg Merrilees
link to supremecourt.uk
just the 9 according to this: “Justices
Lady Hale, Lord Reed, Lord Kerr, Lord Wilson, Lord Carnwath, Lord Kerr, Lady Black, Lord Lloyd-Jones, Lord Sales”
sane for link to supremecourt.uk
Just noticed Kerr being on that list twice. Pretty sure one of them should be Hodge, with Reed and Hodge being Scottish, Kerr NI and Lloyd-Jones Welsh. That’s what was announced last week.
The Respondent’s case ( Ms Cherry) for the Supreme Court case is powerful stuff.
A bit like Robert Peffers on steroids, with his constitutional history of Scotland and the Union essays. Take a bow Mr Peffers, that’s a compliment.
It argues that the people are sovereign in Scotland and Scotland has a legally limited monarchy / Crown bound by the law and traditions as was also laid out in the Claim of Right. Whereas in England the monarch rules by Divine Right.
Two VERY DIFFERENT constitutional bases, as Mr Peffers has often explained. But, that over time the English constitutional basis has been pushed all the time, trying to ignore the Scottish constitutional basis of the Union.
It even rips into the Dicey ideas of unlimited Parliamentary sovereignty as Victorian mince (Yet, points out the Supreme Court in the Gina Miller case repeatedly referred to this as an authority).
If I understand it right, it argues that the idea that Parliament cannot be bound is outdated Dicey rubbish.
It points out that even though the case is heard in the Supreme Court in England, it’s to be held as if it were a Scottish Court under Scots Law.
That if the law in England is of a less strict standard regarding controlling executive abuses, then it’s for the law in England to raise itself to the higher standards of Scots Law.
@jfngw
Was that Sumption on Newsnight?
The London Court (Blair) judgement can be appealed to the European Court. The principles of self government and self determination resulted in (limited) Devolution. People in Scotland voted for it. It could result in an S30 agreement IndyRef2. Or Johnston goes to jail.
Another IndyRef or Johnston goes to jail. Decisions, decisions. What to chose.
Make the right choice vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Or Wings?
Change the electoral system.
‘Divine right’ has gone. Universal Suffrage in most counties. In the UK 1928. A constitutional monarchy. The Royal head of State is supposed to have no power. Impartial
Look it up when countries got the vote. In Switzerland? women got the vote in 1967? Spain reinstated constitutional monarchy 1978. Spanish monarchy funding €7.8million.
British monarchy total budget £400million.
Mmm, I did wonder what all the section 5 waffle was about, while agreeing that the 1689 would be regarded as sectarian these days. Well, yrtis:
“5.18 The whole point about the 1707 Union is that it constitutionally entrenched the distinct Scottish and English constitutional traditions as embodied in the two nations’ separate ecclesiastical settlements.”
and it’s something I’ve pointed out years ago – the curious position of the Church of Scotland in the constitutional positioning. It’s quite the weakness of the Treaty and Acts of Union, frankly, what you could call a non-permanent glue perhaps.
That has to be part of Wolffe’s input, as the ScotGov intervention seems to be incorporated rather than separate – though Wolffe gets his half hour on Thursday for a vocal intervention.
It’s all very random of course 😎
Nothing to see here, move along now, move along. Go watch the pretty shiny mirrors of BoJo and him blowing smoke out his arse.
For an admiral, that is some train journey. Built with less cost than HS2, which would make journeys to Scotland take longer and cost more. Ruin the economy.
My mistake, it’s Mure not Wolffe:
“10:30 to 11:00 Oral Intervention by Scottish Government in Cherry/Miller The Lord Advocate – James Mure QC (30 minutes)”
link to scottishlegal.com
Anyway, knackered, Knockhill with my boy over the weekend, his treat, plus drinking in Dundee. He was disgusted at the number of UJ’s over the main area and paddocks when we saw it at first. I pointed out there were stands and it WAS the BTCC with the “B” for …
Interestingly for a winner FoS was played for at least twice as long as GSTQ for another couple of race winners. Funny lot, Fifers.
DON’T MESS WITH THEM!!!
Well, it might be that the public law is supposedly the same on both sides of the Tweed, the thing is, nobody knows what it is until a court is asked. Its intended to be the same, but may well not be.
@dadsarmy
Quite a document there. Might be too much haggis for English judges to swallow. But then again, maybe that’s the intent.
And hopefully the irritating typos will be cleaned up in that submission.
Mure is from the Faculty of Advocates I think, not Lord Advocate.
@Jock McDonnell
Indeed, same thought crossed my mind 🙂
I guess Mure is one of the QCs used by the Lord Advocate or on his team as in this:
“THE LORD ADVOCATE Fourth Intervener
. . .
The Rt Hon W James Wolffe QC (Lord Advocate), James Mure QC, Alan Maclean QC and Christine O’Neill (instructed by Baker & McKenzie LLP) for the Fourth Intervener”
link to judiciary.uk
Mure is axiom advocates.
I’m a bit confused by the reference in the Cherry response where it mentions “Divisional Courts” to be honest, as that’s to do with Miller, NOT Cherry. Looks like maybe there’s a few errors crept in with doing both a response to an appeal (Cherry), and an appeal (Miller) – and perhaps a lot of crosstalk and even writings.
dadsarmy @ 23:45,
Didn’t watch, but sounds very much like it. He’s been on before, and the Tory millionaire ex-barrister is deeply anti-interventionist. But to assert English supremacy like that is a new overlay even for him. Given his background, hardly surprising, though.
Seems to me that whatever way the judges jump, it’s another deep crack in the foundation of the Union, which has bumbled its way through the ages thanks to arrogant English exceptionalism such as his and cringing Scottish deference.
Well, now we’re sussing the former and shedding the latter, and the precious media exposure which comes from legal tussles like this is helping wonderfully.
@RJS
Indeed, and you should see section 7 and 8. Whichever way the UKSC decides it undoes quite a bit of stuff. I like where it uses Keen against himself as in 7.5 to 7.7, and gets a nice wee paradox into the bargain, as well as a kick in the wotsits for the UKSC:
“7.8 So, we have another paradox that when the United Kingdom Parliament appears (not least by the plain and unequivocal language in the devolution statutes) to create constitutional rules which will bind future Westminster Parliaments, the Supreme Court denies it. In defence of its constitutional vision of the untrammelled sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament, the Supreme Court claims a right effectively to override, or set at naught, such legislation of the United Kingdom Parliament by “reading down” its clear legal provisions so that they are said, by the court, to be no more than expressions of legally unenforceable political aspirations.”
I did think at the time Wolffe surrendered Sewell very easily, even in his submission, to the original Miller A50 case.
UKSC does have an interesting option – to rule that it can’t rule as this has been ruled on by the Court of Session Inner House, Scotland’s final court of appeal. It is an escape route so that it doesn’t have to resolve, the unresolveable. Or if it is going to contemplate overruling the CoS, why then would the UKSC not now “order the release to the respondents of the unredacted documents so that the respondents may, if so advised, rely upon these in making its case to this court for this appeal to be refused.”
When you think about it, by the way, the drink driving laws are different either side of the Tweed.
Newsnight
Lord Sumption ex UK Supreme Court judge giving his views the night before the case commences. Absolutely disgraceful interview.
Point 1 maitlis says 4 Scottish judges – surely you can get the correct number of appeal court judges. No mention that it is a higher court than the English court and the decision was unaminous.
Point 2 “the law is exactly the same in both Scotland and England”. ” One of the two courts is wrong”. ” I’m not going to be dogmatic about this”. ” …… but the orthodox opinion is the one given by the English courts.”
Point 3 ” if they are wise they will take the same view as the divisional court did in the High court in England.”
A great big dog whistle to Brexiteers – Scots courts are political and biased.
dadsarmy @ 01:09,
Wow. It took me a couple of reads, but that ascerbic wee sting in the tail from Wolfe is quite a zinger from a QC to a bench of presiding judges. He has clearly been nursing his wrath on that former judgement to keep it warm!
@RJS
I think it’s as you said earlier: “which has bumbled its way through the ages thanks to arrogant English exceptionalism such as his and cringing Scottish deference.” about a good few things.
Can’t find it now, too many hits for “James Wolffe” on google, but at the time Wolffe put in the first Miller intervention I checked him out, and it seemed he wanted to pursue the likes of the Claim of Right since the 1990s. He has his wish!
Mmm, this view is one I’d totally agree with having read the Miller submission as well:
“The submissions on behalf of Gina Miller are restrained to try to ease the Supreme Court’s minds that deciding in the appellants’ favour is not a political act. The submissions on behalf of Joanna Cherry et al on the other hand really go for the jugular! ”
link to twitter.com
There’s, frankly, no place now for the UKSC to hide away.
dadsarmy and others
Re SC case
Hopefully by now the Scottish Governments main indy thrust will be apparent. As per Sun Zu attack your enemy where he is weak and you are strong. That would, as Mr Peffers has stated on numerous occasions, be on Constitutional grounds and using the “law of the land” to win the case. It is obvious when reading the submission in the Cherry case that the Scots Constituitional position will WIN the day and the English position will be, de facto(in fact) amended by this case.
Ipso facto(by that fact) it is then obvious that if Brexit happens against the express will of the Scottish people the 1707 Treaty is, de jure(in law) Dissolved.
This is why they are attacking the Scots legal position in the media, because when it is upheld they can have their Brexit or their UK but not both. This case is a precursor to dissolution. Happy days. 45 to go.
@Cubby
Lord Sumption was an English judge and has no standing in Scots Law, so his mutterings tend to be of no value in the Cherry case as it will be determined by SC judges who are qualified in Scots Law.
As dadsarmy has included some summaries in the btl thread above it is obvious that Cherry et al have “put the boot in”. Bojo won’t be getting out of it very easily, impeachment comes to mind. He has not even incuded an averment to back up his claims of why the proroguing was necessary at this time, far less an affidavit. He is totally relying on non justiciability of the prorogue to win his case. He’s stuffed.
MP Jo Swinson cannot be forgiven, ever, for supporting the Bedroom Tax, and benefit sanctions.
There….. we sorted that one for her!
dadsarmy says:
17 September, 2019 at 1:09 am
I did think at the time Wolffe surrendered Sewell very easily, even in his submission, to the original Miller A50 case.
Interesting… Too chew that into mince, would I be right to interpret he is saying the UK Supreme Court is a bit hypocritical bailing out of a decision it deems to be interfering with politics, after the same Supreme Court had no such qualms about about interfering with devolved politics?
I’m very superficial in my understanding of the law and legal process, but from trawling online discussion I have gleaned four things I find intriguing…
1. The Court of Session was satisfied and had established as fact that Boris and his Government had lied and misled the Queen, and that it would be extraordinary and unusual for the Supreme Court appeal to essentially dispute or overturn this “established” and now factual truth. If it does grant the appeal, it won’t be disputing proven fact, but some “technical” principle.
2. A definitive illustration of how important the legal principle is, is that unchecked by the Courts, Boris Johnson could arbitrarily prorogue Westminster again, with a second prorogation of Parliament to prevent MP’s from sitting right through until 31st October and beyond, and the Supreme Court would merely shrug its shoulders as the UK succumbed to becoming a Dictatorship.
3. The Court of Session, or more explicitly a panel of senior Scottish judges has given Boris Johnson seven days to lodge his response to a legal challenge that will attempt to force the Prime Minister to delay Brexit. I think that expires this Friday. Again, chewing that into mince that’s easier to swallow, ignoring the law which requires Johnson to seek extension to Article 50, a thing Boris has sworn not to do, which could lead to Boris being in contempt of the Scots Law, where the Scottish Courts have the power to jail you. We have the delicious prospect that Boris could get himself huckled.
4. When the Supreme Court hears an appeal of a Scottish Case, it sits under Scot’s Law. It’s a hybrid Court, but the respective Scot’s Law and English Law are unadulterated in the appeal. By that I mean Scot’s Law is not being judged by English or UK Law. I’m not sure about this interpretation, because how can a Supreme Court sit “above” the highest Court recognised by Scots Law?
In conclusion, I think we may be witnessing the power of Scot’s Law beginning to flex it’s muscles and exercise Constitutional prerogatives which the UK Government has long been taking for granted, and which will in due course redefine Scotland’s place and entitlements in the Union. It remains to be seen however whether that will be the death of the Union or merely it’s reinvention into a new stage of evolution with reawakened awareness that Scotland is not merely a region, but a Sovereign Nation in a bipartite Treaty.
Nevertheless, what a tonic it is in the bloodstream just to feel like “something” is happening after so many years of tepid inaction.
@Kangaroo
Plus the case lodged last week, the one to force BoJo to put his “X” on the letter to the EU requesting a 3 month extension. Maybe by the time that’s heard and decided, appeal to the UKSC will not be possible. And who knows, that may not be the last of it?
@Breeks
Pretty much.
An appeal can be made to the ECHR. The one who upheld the Scottish right to Devolution. That supports self governance and self determination. If people vote for it. The European Court who found in people in Scotland favour. There was democracy in the UK Union. The one that upholds people’s human rights, especially in Scotland. Enshrined in Devolution, That is likely to muck up the union. A win, win. Damn if they do. Damned if they don’t. Westminster unionist cretins Troy g themselves in knots.
An S30 legal agreement or Johnston goes to jail. Decisions, decisions. Which one to chose?
Who said the SNP did not have a plan and were useless? They could not play a better plan. The universe is aligning. Now all voters have to vote for it. That is all people have to do. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote for a better world. Put the Westminster unionist imbeciles in their place. For a better state. They could not make a bigger mess. A complete and utter shambles as usual. They are trying to destroy the world economy.
The EU the most successful partnership ever. People come together to cooperate. 27 members and more want to join. Founded to prevent starvation and war in Europe. The UK/US cause illegal conflict on the planet. Illegally killing and maiming millions of people. They caused the migration crisis in Europe. Desperate people being killed. Imagine people withdrawing support for the RNLI because they do good work abroad. The donation will increase from others. There are more good people in the world than bad. Including in Europe.
The Tory sycophant losers. The lying LibDem enablers. Vacant coupons. Clock face. People clock them. The lying time line. They can say what they like. They will never be in power. Reneged on promises big time. Just muck up the economy sitting on the fence. A total waste of time, space and public money.
The state of Cameron. Habitual liar, The illegal war in Libya, Middle East caused the worst migrant crisis in Europe since 11WW. Cameron caused Brexit. He was responsible for it. He could not care a damn troughing on public money. HS2/Hinkley Point. A total waste if money. The British/Chinese consortium hedge fund. The Tory slush fund. Up to their ears in it. The thick of it. Cameron bought another £Million holiday house out of benefits from it.
Cameron caused Brexit for money. Embezzling public funds. He is in the Ivy restaurant every day, guzzling red wine. Cameron is an alcoholic. Osbourne snouts coke up his nose, not drinking it. Addicts make poor decisions without proper ‘total abstinence’, one chance rehab counselling. Just look at the state of them. Austerity killing people.
Cameron cut the NHS £4Billion a year from 2015 to 2020, An habitual liar. Cut education £6Billion a year. £3Billion they will not get back from student loans but saddle young folk with unnecessary debt. Mucking up their future. LibDem lies. They cut welfare £6Billion a year. £18Billion over six years. Causing death and hardship. Killing of the elderly in the rest of the UK, their own supporters. Cameron is a lying ‘psycho bastard’. Along with the rest of them. Their own description. Going down into oblivion, especially in Scotland. Johnston will finish them off.
The economy only improved after Thatcher because of closer ties with Europe. Deja Vu.The 1980’s. Another Tory EU dispute. Finished off Thatcher. Geoffrey Howe. 8 mins speech. After Thatcher finished off the economy. High unemployment, poll tax riots, civil war with the miners. The violence the Thatcher period. People can sometimes forget about it. The banking fraud. Deregulation of the banking system leading to the crash later. Destroyed the Scottish economy. Lies and deceit. Illegal Murdoch take over of the right wing Press. Leveson recommendations still not introduced. To suit the unionist parties and their cronies.
There is no democracy for Scotland in the union. Outvoted 10 to 1. When Scotland was supposed to be treated equally under the terms of the Treaty of Union. Reneged upon before the ink was signed and dry. Recognised by ECHR. Any London Court decision can be appealed. The London Supreme Court (Blair) Another block to people’s in Scotland wishes. To try and block self government and determination. Full fiscal autonomy/Independence.
Lord Sumption giving his views the night before the decision in MSM. Is that not illegal. Discussing a case/cause before a verdict is reached. Prejudice the case? It could affect the decision.
Bizarre Gms interview with Willie Ronnie not strongly challenged on anti indyref stance if SNP won majority merely tackled on playing those tactics to win votes
Can’t see her performing in an election campaign.
Brexit – the gift that keeps on giving.
British Nationalists foaming rabidly at the lack of deference towards the UK.
“How dare Luxembourg. Don’t they know who and what we are etc?”
Er…no. that’s the point.
Who are you?
Oh, yeah..that very diminished laughing stock.
The Lib-Dems are really Tories in waiting.
Lib-Dem leader – votes cast in support of the Tories:
Voted FOR the Bedroom Tax
Voted for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year
Voted AGAINST raising welfare benefits
Voted AGAINST higher benefits for long term ill
Voted FOR reducing council tax aid for those in financial difficulties ( usually a result of sudden unemployment)
Almost always voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits
Almost always voted against spending public money to create guaranteed jobs for young people who have spent a long time unemployed
Consistently voted against increasing the tax rate applied to income over £150,000
Almost always voted for academy schools
Consistently voted for ending financial support for some 16-19 year olds in training and further education
Consistently voted for university tuition fees
Generally voted for reducing central government funding of local government
Generally voted against a more proportional system for electing MPs !
Generally voted against transferring more powers to the Scottish Parliament
Consistently voted for selling England’s state owned forests
Voted for new high speed rail infrastructure
Consistently voted against slowing the rise in rail fares
Generally voted against greater regulation of gambling
Generally voted for the privatisation of Royal Mail
Generally voted for restricting the scope of legal aid
We have to remember the context of the last two centuries of independent Scotland and its neighbour, England.
In England and Scotland the Reformation had taken place. Differently. In England, Anglican, a sort of Protestant pretend Catholic church with bishops under the control of the King.
Scotland was mainly Calvinist, John Knox, Presbyterian. In Presbyterianism all were equal under God: Kings, Lords and the common folk. The Church in Scotland was all powerful. And was the nearest ordinary folk came to political democrarcy – through their church. The Crown tried to take control by imposing Bishops. It caused civil wars in Scotland.
That’s why much of central and southern Scotland is peppered with the graves and memorials to The Covenanters. They defied the Crown’s attempts at taking control of the Church. The Crown treating them incredibly cruelly including murder / martyrdom to impose its will.
The Covenanters won. That’s why we have the Claim of Right. Explicitly stating the Crown is subject to the rule of law and rule of Parliament.
The pleadings highlight that Presbyterian symbolised political democracy (rule by parliament and the law); Episcopalian (church with bishops) limited Crown power; Papist (Divine Right of Kings answerable to nobody, tyranny). That’s how things were understood by the people. That was the language of the time.
Scotland and it’s religious / political ideals even survived invasion and conquest by Cromwell’s Army and Scotland’s forced Union into an English Commonwealth Parliament ruled from Westminster. At this time Scots Law was suspended.
That’s why when the 1707 Union took place there were two areas that were – supposed to be- untouchable: Church and Scots Law.
“What if they just said “We don’t believe in a second indyref, and if you elect us to government there won’t be one, but if the SNP win an election on that manifesto then obviously the rules are the same for them as they would be for us, so they’d get to have one”?”
It would not change a thing. They would remain seen as equally hypocritical, equally liars, equally undemocratic: Since 2016 the Scottish gov and Scottish Parliament have ALREADY a cast iron mandate to hold an independence referendum. This mandate was given by the people of Scotland, the real sovereign of Scotland. It does not matter if the Libdems win this election or not. Our Holyrood vote from 2016 still stands and will stand until 2021. It is not for a political party with HQ in England to tell Scotland if it can have a referendum on independence or not.
There is a more important question here:
how does Jo Swinson intend to be a PM candidate from a Scottish seat? Will the monumental hypocrite honour to her pledge of “supporting the union” by trashing the biggest insult to the union that is EVEL and run to become PM from the Scottish seat or will the coward simply tow the line like all the other ones have done before her and run from an England safe seat?
Is Swinson going to put her words where it matters or is she just another big bag of hot air like Davidson was until it burst?
Lord Reed
Rose quickly to become deputy in the Supreme Court 2018 and rose even more quickly after that because he will be number one from January 2020
Is that just talent ?
Or his he the chosen one because of the constitutional questions everyone has known about for years that would be arising as they are now about what rights Scotland has to determine its own future.
I think Lord Reed has been chosen to fight the case for the English , he won’t be fighting for Scotland’s rights he will look for a way to double cross Scotland .
It will be that makes and announces the decision not the outgoing number one in the Supreme Court who is approaching retirement
There is no way the Supreme Court would be giving the top job in the Supreme Court to a Scot unless they were absolutely confident that he will make judgements that sit well with England , the House of Lords which is in England and the majority in the House of Commons who are English.
Dadsarmy@9.58
“It is not for this court to trespass upon or over-rule the Court of Session’s understanding of the extent of the supervisory jurisdiction of this court.”
Ouch. A not so veiled warning to the SC that it cannot ignore or diminish the absolute conviction of the CoS that there are limits in law beyond which it should not and cannot go. In nutshell? Err in your findings and it is YOU who will stand accused of political bias.
One wee aside – on Breakfast TV this am (I know – but know thine enemy) – Dan the anchorman introduced the item on the SC ruling as “our country’s legal system is divided with a court in Scotland and a court in London” disagreeing over whether Johnson’s proroguing was unlawful and “now it’s up to the highest court in the land to decide”.
The sleekit manipulation of the truth continues unabated.
BTW, mucho respect to dadsarmy, RJS, Kangaroo, Breeks and others for picking apart the legal process. Anyone coming on here for enlightenment will have found it. A simply magnificent thread.
And I do believe the outcome of this case, and the current A50 petition at the CoS could have some very important political ramifications vis a vis Scotland’s standing in the eyes of the EU.
At the very least it will broadcast the message that Scotland has its own independent judiciary which holds unambiguously that ultimate power rests with the people.
Absolutely disgusting. Tax evader Lorraine Kelly fawning over multiple, habitual compulsive liar Ruth Davidson. Davidson resigned before she was push totally out of politics. Into oblivion. What a liar.
Another one gone, another one down. Another one hits the dust.
@Historical nonsense. AC spewing nonsense again. Rubbish. What a mish mash. Go and read a few history books. Or do some relevant research on the internet.
Prejudiced and biased. Including the Judiciary? It’s irrelevant, The deciding/verdict can be appealed ECHR.
An S30 or Johnston goes to jail. Catch twenty two. What to do. What to do. The SNP have played a blinder. It’s just not cricket. Caught the Tories out big time. Never trust a Tory, especially in Scotland.
Paraphrasing the mighty Tap, “There’s something about this that’s soo stupid, it’s like how much more stupid could this be? And the answer is none. None more stupid.”
O/t – but a good news story from the Guardian:
link to theguardian.com
@Ken500
Don’t be too sure that Ruth Davidson is gone for good, she may have just decided to go undercover until the Brexit mess goes away, then rise like a phoenix to become the resurgent leader.
Either that or a seat in England to further her career, so if England wants a blow-hard who runs away at the first sign of trouble, doesn’t like to meet constituents then they have the perfect candidate.
I see the Herald going hard on the 2/3rd majority again today, this can only indicate they know Yes is now well over 50% and they are in skitters country.
The LibDems are one of the tentacles of the British State in Scotland and as such have a very clear brief to ensure that London Rule is maintained.
As such they do attract a very particular type of British Nationalist to work for them. I personally find them extremely condescending and patronising.
I guess that these particular personality traits are a pre-requisite for being a LibDem. They always appear to own a very peculiar air of superiority, even down to the activists that you meet in the street and on the doorstep.
All LibDems appears to have bought into the British Nationalist project.
You do not meet the innocent student activist type, brimming with enthusiasm about a particular LibDem policy that warms the cockles of their hearts.
I doubt that mindset exists. No, it’s all about an identity that chimes with the notion of being a part of an elite.
And that concept of being an elite – the British elite – drives and motivates them.
That is what you see in Jo Swinson’s dabbling with anti-democratic language; make no mistake, she actually believes in throwing democracy on the fire to achieve the greater aims of that elite.
It is an especially difficult mindset to get your head around when you do not share that way of thinking.
It’s also difficult for Jo to articulate when hiding behind a veneer of democracy because of the obvious conflicts – her mask does slip and it’s obvious.
Willie Rennie also shares this thinking and he would have no qualms in going full fascist if it meant that his self identification as a member of the British elite was preserved.
Just pull any LibDem name from the hat who represents a Scottish constituency and ask yourself if they fit with the above description – Alex Cole-Hamilton & Alistair Carmichael anyone?
And all of this is extremely dangerous in the current climate.
O/T
Watch the Supreme Court Case live
link to supremecourt.uk
Like labour, the liberal democrats are avoiding any chance of governing the disUK, as that would mean being the party that would be remembered for the break up of the UK.
Quite obviously the tories are at it too. Why else elect Johnson to the party leadership?
Swansong will probably lose her seat at the next GE, deservidly so. THe disUK will either break up or Westminster will be reformed. I think that the bell tolls for all of the trad parties. They have made such a mess of brexit, 3 years and still chaos.
The time has come for smaller parties, Italian style. Like Bella Italia, that will prove chaotic until people learn to power share and have coalition government that actually works in the people’s interests in a place that is custom built for that purpose. Similar to the Scottish parliament and without the house of Lords.
Either way, Scotland should be independent. If not, we deserve the chaos that is coming at us headlong Ian Anderson and Locomotive Breath style.
‘Ken500 says:
17 September, 2019 at 7:15 am
Lord Sumption giving his views the night before the decision in MSM. Is that not illegal. Discussing a case/cause before a verdict is reached. Prejudice the case? It could affect the decision’
It would be if this were a standard criminal case – but because this case is more about Constitutional law (although not exactly), he can discuss it with a view to inform. Likewise he is not connected to the case, so what he is discussing is the principles of the law and the initial cases, (details of which are in the public arena).
Lib Dems in a no lose situation I reckon…its all free publicity and folk who don’t want Brexit will think “Hmm ok” and most wont care about Scotland anyhows.
They may grab a few votes from Labour and Tories here and there but they know its just all about raising the profile before another period of anonymity.
Big question is will the people of East Dunbartonshire wallow in the bask of Holy Jo’s reign as Leader or kick her down to the Lords pronto at the next Election.
Given vote preferences last time around, I am not too sure and wonder if we could put Alex Salmond up for the seat!
General election 2017: East Dunbartonshire
Party / Candidate /Votes /Swing
Liberal Democrats Jo Swinson 21,023 40.6 +4.3
SNP John Nicolson 15,684 30.3 -10.0
Conservative Sheila Mechan 7,563 14.6 +6.0
Labour Callum McNally 7,531 14.5 +2.2
A cracker from Phantom Power:
link to twitter.com
Supreme Court decision.
It’s very easy to think that the Supreme Court decision is not that important. It is very important.
Quite simply a ruling against the Court of Session decision will give the green light for Johnson or any future UK PM to use proroguing as a tool to disable UK parliamentary democracy for any reason and at any time of their choosing.
The first baby steps to a dictatorship.
Updated Nana’s links here:
link to indyref2.space
Court having a problem with the paper base submission numbers and the electronic version numbers, much chuntering, and the thread of the argument fades into confusion . 🙁
jfngw says:
17 September, 2019 at 9:31 am
@Ken500
Don’t be too sure that Ruth Davidson is gone for good, she may have just decided to go undercover until the Brexit mess goes away, then rise like a phoenix to become the resurgent leader.
Either that or a seat in England to further her career, so if England wants a blow-hard who runs away at the first sign of trouble, doesn’t like to meet constituents then they have the perfect candidate.
As one of her constituents, I can certainly confirm she is not throwing herself wholeheartedly (or otherwise) into constituency work, or holding constituency surgeries. An absentee MSP, using her constituents for her own personal ambition and aggrandisement, generously funded by the taxpayer in the way of salary, allowances, expenses and pension and shamelessly giving nothing in return.
If she were a benefit claimant, she’d have been multiply sanctioned by now.
What Bills have been lost due to prorogation asks Judge?
We don’t know! But we ‘ll find out….! Little slip there. 🙁
Still, so far, seems a fair tilt at convincing the court that Boris was at it. Guilty M’Lud! 🙂 We wish.
@call me dave
Bills which have been lost, maybe we should send theis to the court 🙂
link to theparliamentaryreview.co.uk
Lets just cut to the chase here. Instead of this Lord Panni rambling on wae awe this jargon 99% of the country not having a scooby doo what it means, why doesn’t he just say-
Common guys(justice’s) we awe know Boris is a fecking LIAR!- end of, case solved and get those lazy MP’s back to work to get this mess sorted.
@Nana
Good catch! Send it to them because that public toilet Bill is very important at my age.
OT
This is a very effective posting elsewhere I think; a question rather than an assertion doesn’t raise the hackles of those who might normally disagree:
“Does anyone feel the UK is heading towards being a totalitarian state?”
It’s got to make you think, well, is it? And then there’s an implied question “Do you want to be a part of that totalitarian state?”
So, the Supreme Court action today.
Am I right in thinking the English courts initially deemed the concept as not one they could adjudicate on – it was politics. And so, they refused to open pandoras box and hear any evidence. And that is being appealed today.
The initial Scottish judgement deemed the same, was appealed at CoS and given that prorogation had then taken place, and was no longer hypothetical, they were able to produce and weigh up evidence of LBJ’s true motives – hence the unanimous Lord’s judgements.
Looking at proceedings in London today – the Millar appeal, is leading with much the same evidence of events that the Scottish appeal did – actual evidence is being heard. In other words – win lose or draw – the evidence of events is being held up to public, lawful scrutiny.
This will make it very hard (but never say never) for the UK Govt to win. It will also make it easier to appeal should that become necessary. I would think anyway.
No wonder they were spitting feathers about the CoS judgement – it really did put the legal cat amongst the pigeons.
Interesting take on the Courts proceedings over on Craig Murray’s blog.
Jolyon Maugham QC – That would mean a Prime Minister could suspend Parliament the day after a general election, & suspend it until the day before the next general election… that’s an absolutely remarkable proposition.
see video here
link to twitter.com
jfngw says:
17 September, 2019 at 9:31 am
@Ken500
Don’t be too sure that Ruth Davidson is gone for good, she may have just decided to go undercover until the Brexit mess goes away, then rise like a phoenix to become the resurgent leader.
—————–
Incredibly cynical. Everyone knows dear Ruth is simply prioritising the demands of motherhood, and it’s just a coincidence that these demands peaked immediately after prorogation. Think about the baby!
It fair makes you wonder really. You’re born with a name like “Pannick” and realise the only thing you can do in life, is become a QC.
Davidson has been a scrounger for ever. A lazy, greedy parasite who cannot cut it. Jumps the stinking, sinking ship. Promoted beyond their capabilities. Never trust a Tory, especially in Scotland. The usual total mess. Left behind them. A revolving door of Westminster total imbeciles. Lying up behind them.
Per Private Eye: Scotland’s local councils to be run by the British Army:
“To fill the thousands of extra civil service posts required the government has arranged for a rather unorthodox shuffle: if/when a “no deal” Brexit happens, thousands of local government officials are to be reallocated to Whitehall departments to fortify Sir Humphrey.
“Who will run town and county halls in their absence? This is where matters become surreal. The army – including territorial volunteers – are being issued with instructions to take over local government posts, in a civilian capacity, in the event of “no deal”.
“One officer, who admitted he was uncomfortable at the optics of all this, observed to the Eye that this involved putting soldiers in charge even when they lacked basic literacy and numeracy. Quite how they would get on in calculating council tax, or providing adult social care and children’s services, remains to be seen…”
——————-
Scotland’s local councils to be run by illiterate, innumerate grunts from the British Army. What could possibly go wrong?
link to guerillawire.org
Dangerous times.
I watched a small piece on good morning empire today which consisted of Piers Morgan the idiot, telling folks at home at how rude and disgusting johnny foreigner was in the perceived treatment of his petulant prime minister – closely followed by – a news piece on Dunkirk and the 100 immigrants trying to illegally enter said empire.
Dangerous times indeed.
When the building through the wall is well alight and you can feel the heat and smell the smoke in your own home, it is time to take care of your own – not try to firefight next door.
@dad’s army, 12.31
“Does anyone feel the UK is heading towards being a totalitarian state?”
Yes.
Boris Johnson is acting as if he and his executive are above the law.
Julian Assange is still being held in arbitrary detention. If the administration of justice in the UK was not politicised, he would be entitled to not only conditional release but also compensation for arbitrary detention. The politicisation of the administration of justice in the UK is a disgrace.
Alfred de Zayas, the retire UN rapporteur, has said “Discrimination in the administration of justice corrupts the rule of law – but this is becoming a UK tradition.”
Will it be the Supreme Court or the Supine Court after today?
chicmac @1:47
best outcome…
…..’shut up you whinging jocks’
Well here we go again. What now! The Cherry case maybe.
Matchsticks in place on the eyelids and trying to keep up! 🙂
Joke seen elsewhere, derudified:
Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says,
“I’ll have a pint of beer please..”
The barman pours a pint, then throws it all over Farage.
“What did you do that for?” says Farage, drenched to the skin.
“Because you’re in a metaphor which illustrates the stupidity of asking for something but not stipulating how you wanted it delivered!”
“But I’m still thirsty, so I want a pint — this time in a glass!” says Farage.
“You can’t ask again!” said the barman.
“Why not?” snivelled Farage.
“Democracy.” says the barman.
I see the UKSC have updated the website to show 11 judges hearing the case, rather than the 9 it had before.
“Justices
Lady Hale
Lord Reed
Lord Kerr
Lord Wilson
Lord Carnwath
Lord Hodge
Lady Black
Lord Lloyd-Jones
Lady Arden
Lord Kitchin
Lord Sales”
link to supremecourt.uk
They added Arden and Kitchin, and put Hodge in instead of the 2nd Kerr. Quite a lot of mistakes because of the haste of this case – including appellants and respondents, and respondents and appellants!
Ah! NI Law and Scots Law is same as English Law….because!
He would say that wouldn’t he.
Justiciability determined by the subject matter of the case and is therefore limited. Courts not to cross these boundaries.
Jings! If courts fine ‘Boris’ guilty he will obey the law.
He will give an undertaking
Another consequence will be Boris goes to the Queen and ????
We are in deep water now nobody knows.
Both QCs might have to get together and have a chat what should /could be done? Did I hear that right. FGS!
We can work it out! 🙂
Keane (UK Gov counsel) not being given an easy time by SC. He seemed to have accepted CofS finding that prorogation was “Unlawful” but that it went too far stating the effect was “null”.
Ho-hum.
Jo Swinson speech being given full coverage on BBC Sky and BBC parliament channel.
Contrast that with last years coverage of our excellent FMs speech at the SNP conference and the poor coverage the whole SNP conference was given. It’s only a proper democracy if the media is unbiased and not controlled by another nation.
Scotland has a faux democracy in the UK.
Love @craigmurray blog but the comments section is brutal, who are those folk!?
Unionist Media BDSM Club says:
17 September, 2019 at 1:38 pm
Per Private Eye: Scotland’s local councils to be run by the British Army:
Maybe this is why Davidson did a runner knowing this would happen and she would be drafted in to run Scotland
This could not be far from the truth as strange things are happening at the moment.
JPMorgan Chase to build new technology base in Glasgow
link to archive.is
Stuart , I see that bbc Scotland are now reporting your appeal against K Dugdale but they really need to get a proofreader for their reports . I do have a screenshot if it gets changed. ??
link to bbc.co.uk
Senior judges to hear Wings Over Scotland appeal (archived)
link to archive.is
link to twitter.com
THE ‘IDIOT’ LIBDEMS ARE NOT ALONE
According to the holder of the ‘Yes bot’ twitter account, the
“three most important things for the success of the Independence movement are inclusion, inclusion & inclusion”
Then, he or she asks “Should Catholic schools be abolished as another tool to tackle the recent increase in sectarian events within #Scotland?
Feel free to dicuss any perspective, & in reality it would obviously exclude any school favouring one religion from receiving public money.”
So, inclusion, inclusion & inclusion, means except for Catholic children of school age, who are apparently responsible for “the recent increase in Sectarian events in Glasgow.”
There’s only one kind of sectarianism in Scotland, the anti-Catholic variety. It’s been here since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century, and has its very own book of book of anti-Catholic propaganda, containing such lies as ‘sectarianism is caused by Catholic schools’, and, ‘one side is equally as bad as the other’.
Independence simply won’t happen without the many Yes supporters of various religious beliefs and none, together with the many, many people from a host of other countries, who also support Scottish Independence.
‘Yes bot’. Not every Yes is what appears to be. Beware of British Intelligence and Westminster’s love of ‘divide & conquer’ tactics.
Even accepting the defence of “Fair comment”, seems to me the correct conclusion was no 50% uplift, and both sides pay their own expenses. The case being brought was reasonable to clear the name of homphobia, the defence was reasonable as it was a fair comment for someone tragically short of basic comprehension of the English language (or Scottish language come to that); neither party acted wrongly in bringing or defending the case, so neither side should pay the other’s expenses.
Fair chance I think, that’s what the Inner House will decide.
This article is very revealing on who exactly voted for brexit in England
It also gives very interesting detail about Britishness
And shows that without the English people living in wales , it is certain that wales would have voted remain
This article is very revealing on who exactly voted for brexit in England
It also gives very interesting detail about Britishness
And shows that without the English people living in wales , it is certain that wales would have voted remain
link to dannydorling.org
dadsarmy @ 15:47,
That is my view also. If the costs had been shared 50-50, I would have regarded the overall judgement as (arguably) equitable dealing – or at least not cost-effective to pursue further – but awarding the costs entirely to Kez was to me an indication of inherent bias dressed up to look like balance. The lop-sided views promoted in the media afterwards also heightened a sense of injustice.
So to me anyway it’s not surprising that Stu, being who he is, is “going for bust”. I wish him every success. and if in the process it clarifies the law on such matters for everyone, so much the better.
@RJS
I also think the Inner House should rule that the court system or state bear the total cost of the part of the appeal that deals with the 50% uplift punitive damages, if it deems that to have been inappropriate which is my opinion.
Let’s hope the Inner House of the Court of Sessions is up to the job it needs to do – preserve Scots Law and its innate people-fairness.
Terry callachan @ 16:31:
On the contrary, this article highlights the magnitude of Leave votes in (previously-unsuspected) hotspots in southern England, namely Kent and Hampshire. It concludes SFA about Wales.
Your assertion may just possibly be true, but that article in no way substantiates it.
Stuart ,
I see by your twitter that you have picked up what I was referring to in my earlier post at 3.20pm about their error and I see they’ve corrected it now to Mr Campbell . So bbc have read your twitter
or my post although I didn’t post what the error was .
I should really join twitter although I read a lot on it but don’t know if I want the hassle that goes with it .
Inquiry into safety and wellbeing concerns at two hospitals
link to archive.is
Anyone want to follow what happened, here’s the morning UKSC session in tweets:
link to twitter.com
and afternoon
link to twitter.com
The Supreme Court case
Key question by a member of the Supreme Court to Johnsons advocate: would Johnson (if he loses this case and then reinstates Parliament would he then go for another immediate prorogue of Parliament.
Answer by Johnson’s advocate: I am not in a position to comment on that proposition at all m’lord.”
Any one know if it was Edna or Wullie at the conference haha
Any one know if it was Edna or Wullie at the conference haha I think Wullie
The latest heap of dross from the better together mob is that the SNP must get two thirds of the votes for independence to make the vote beyond doubt.
The SNP should turn this on its head and state at the next election the better together mob must get two thirds of the vote to stay in the UK and failing that the SNP has a mandate for independence.
Funny how they NEVER suggest setting a high bar for ANY other elections only the ones the SNP call for.
They obviously have access to the latest polling figures which has prompted this knee jerk reaction.
Suck it up yoons
Scott says:
Maybe this is why Davidson did a runner knowing this would happen and she would be drafted in to run Scotland
This could not be far from the truth as strange things are happening at the moment.
———————
Very strange indeed. I don’t *think* martial law is coming post-Brexit, but don’t ask me to put money on it.
Keen: “Inner House [of Court of Session] erred in inferences they drew.”
In other words, Keen is arguing that the 3 senior judges in Scotland’s Court of Session made an error in applying (Scots) Law.
We’ll see…..
Has anyone noticed the rubbish radio Scotland are coming out with in the morning, call Kaye you sometimes got quite a good discussion but for a few months back nothing of substance, every expert are from south of the border haven’t Scotland got people with an opinion, I thought John Beattie was quite a genuine broadcaster but even some of the rubbish he’s been speaking about he must know what’s happening, just a total load of southern rubbish.
Did I miss the TV coverage of the Tory Dark Money fine by Electoral Commission?
I wonder why?
@Sinky
Funny that I thought it was odd as well. 🙂
Oh what a surprise.
Breeks
The BBC, in their wisdom or lack of, reporting on the Supreme Court case thus far have been trying to push the English law position that Boris has the right to do as he has done but I noticed a cautionary mention that C of S might not be dismissed peremptorily.
Be that as it may, they are still not mentioning anything about Boris having been given 7 days to explain himself in Scotland and absolutely NOT mentioning anything about ‘Nobile Officium’ which allows the Court of Session to sign the letter from the UK asking for an extension to Brexit.
Things are taking an interesting turn…
O/T … sitting here with former NO voter and has asked a question to which some Wingers might know the answer….
If Blow Job in Westminster can get the required majority to get his GE,
WHAT can Holyrood do to get an early one before 2021 if anything?
@Big Del – its all defined in law – the Scotland Act 1998 I think.
Basically FM resigns & Holyrood can’t find a successor within 28days – or – 2/3 of the MSPs not for an election – something like that.
2/3 ‘VOTE’ for an election – duh
@RM at 6:38 pm
re. The pish on Radio Shortbread.
Ach, ye jist huv tae suck it up for the time being coz broadcastin powerz are reserved tae that shithoose on the Thames.
The golden showers of propaganda and other inane dumbed doon shite that rain down over us Scots aren’t just limited to “Jockland”.
No, the rest of Britain has to endure it too.
I was driving this afternoon and had the misfortune of listening to Radio 2. I nearly had a stroke and crashed the car when over the airwaves Jeremy Vine said he was unaware the UK was selling arms to Saudi.
Fuck me, how can that wazzock be so uniformed, especially after he attended a fancy dinner evening a few years back for Arms, Defence and Security industry companies.
It must o’ been a richt braw pish up if he forgot aboot that…
Robert J Sutherland your post at 5.04pm
Hi Robert
You missed a bit
This bit under the heading “ the invention of Britain “ final paragraph last sentence.
There is no longer an empire to exploit and it’s not coming back. The question is how to achieve an amicable divorce on the British Isles. Brexit, for instance, has taught the English that there is no border in Ireland now. Most never realised that. Brexit has reinforced the understanding of the Scots concerning how duplicitous the English can be. But it is a complete mess, as even London did not want Brexit. It was those living around London who did. Furthermore, without the English retirees living in Wales, Wales would not have voted majority out. These are a very divided set of Isles.
I have to SLIGHTLY disagree. First, look what happened when Labour suggested that a temporary coalition of opposition groups took over government after a proposed no confidence vote, delayed Brexit and called a GE. The numbers WOULD have been there BUT FOR the LibDems. Tiny in number BUT that number were needed for the whole thing to work, it didn’t.
They are a requirement if, in the next GE, we have a hung parliament. Given the current polling, this is entirely likely. So pivotal but not going to be forming a government.
The OTHER thing that taking this position does is to ‘shift the argument’ Labour has been tying itself in knots and the usual suspects in the PLP have been speaking out to contradict anything Corbyn says, basically a lot of Labour Blairites would LOVE to follow suit with the LibDems. Labour feel, correctly, that they may now lose ‘Remainer’ votes to the LibDems. This could be enough in marginal seats to see them losing seats they already hold and prevent them winning seats in what could be or SHOULD be easily winnable Tory seats.
I’d be VERY surprised if at the next Labour conference the policy doesn’t lurch towards that of the LibDems in order to maximise the Labour vote.
If that succeeds then the LibDems have done their job. Just in the same way that The Greens n Scotland have had influence way above the number of seats they hold by being pivotal in the SNP government for many years now.
I want Scotland to be free of this circus, independence and remain in the EU, the rest of Britain would be happy to see this, only the politicians who actually realise what a cash cow we are disagree. But, even if you ARE a unionist, provided that you are a ‘democrat’ you should be utterly outraged by the LibDem antics. After all YOUR country had a vote, YOUR politicians said beforehand it would be honoured, YOUR politicians said in their manifestos they’d honour it and finally YOUR parliament triggered Article 50. IF a LibDem majority WAS delivered it could be done with a minority of votes from the whole of UK, that’s the FPTP system for you!
This is no one’s idea of democracy, but then Swinson wouldn’t know democracy if it bit her bum!
Following the SC proceedings. What I really don’t get is how ‘well, we prorogued in 19umteen for political reasons, so we can prorogue again for political reasons’ is a strong argument.
Being wrong in the past doesn’t mean hey-ho lets get it wrong again.
As I understand it, courts only get involved if they are asked to – and just because nobody asked before, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t ask now.
For example the idea that the ‘orthodox’ position is the one from the English HC. Surely that’s only orthodoxy because nobody asked the Court of Session before.
Maybe someone can ask PeatWorrier – I don’t do twitter anymore.
Hi Big Del.
I’m content to be proved incorrect but from reading btl comments on WOS over the past few years, I believe one way would be for the FM to resign.
The SNP and Greens would then have to vote against any candidate put forward for the position. I seem to remember that if there is no FM elected within 28 days, there has to be an election.
As I type, if I’m incorrect, I’m happy to be corrected to advance my knowledge of what’s what.
Terry callachan @ 19:50,
OK, fair enough, though a very thin one-line takeaway from such an extensive article!
Still, whatever grabs your attention, eh? =grin=
I have to respond to JLT from above, if you don’t mind.
(16 September, 2019 at 7:59 pm)
Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and especially Ukraine, were never part of Russia. These were always individual nations.
They did end up under Imperial Russian domination for many years, and again during the Russian Soviet era.
I am astonished that anyone actually considers these countries, and others in the region, as ever having been part of Russia, as such, and that somehow, these became “New States” recently, when in fact, they were always nations with their own distinct identities, denied their freedom, for too long.
It is that very thinking we have amongst far too many especially in England, and the likes of MP Jo Swinson, towards Scotland, we have to challenge.
Robert J Sutherland
Glad you can read
Disappointed that even when you are wrong you have difficulty saying so
BIG grin
Terry callachan @ 21:31,
Sorry you took that concession so ungraciously. But that one-line throwaway was merely a bare statement, and with no evidence behind it on offer, didn’t actually substantiate anything. As I had said in the first place. (Though you seem to have missed that in your eagerness for a spot of easy one-upmanship.)
But no doubt you can eventually unearth something pertinent and convincing to assure us that you’re more than a proto-racist in desperate search of a public, eh…?
Completely O/T.
An idea has just come into my head whilst looking at the map of signatures per constituency on Craig Murray’s petition to Westminster asking the Westminster Gov to request international observers for the next Scotland independence referendum.
What about Alec Salmond standing in an English seat e.g. Berwick at the next election? Not as SNP presumably but as himself. It couldn’t hurt the SNP and if he won it could be useful to have an “English” MP supporting independence for Scotland.
What do Wingers think? A good idea or not?
Alex not Alec.
The Tories tweeting out smug ‘you lost in 2014’ comments. You can understand their smugness, they run Scotland despite not winning an election here for over 60 years. Can we find another country in the world run by a party that last won an election in 1955 (technically they have never won an election as in 1955 they were not the Conservative party).
You said there is “ SFA about wales”
I sent you a copy of the bit you missed
It’s okay to be wrong Robert
You were wrong , get over it
Sarah..
It would be funny right enough but no , I don’t think we should try and aggravate people intentionally
JEEZ!!!
WHY do these pro-unionists not get that if Scotland votes for independence, there is no UK to “LEAVE”?
Thus, in any indyref2, the “remain/leave” question is rendered crap?
Without the Kingdom of Scotland, there is no UK to “leave”. Scotland can vote to dissolve the Articles of Union (1707) and that’s the UK finished.
Yi sumtimes wundir aboot their minds… I wonder what the dormouse said…
Oh yes – “feed your head”…
Sarah @ 22:06,
Oh, I think that might be rather fun. He has always been up for a challenge, and that would certainly be one. He could stand for returning Berwick to its proper place, ie. in Scotland, heh, heh. That should cause quite a few feathers to fly in the coop!
If the unionists want to change the question then lets make it factual.
Do you want to dissolve the Treaty of Union and make Holyrood the unitary parliament of Scotland.
jfngw..
It’s so annoying isn’t it, I just can’t believe that so many people in Scotland actually want Scotland to be run by a Conservative government that they continually vote against
And why does it take the threat of leaving the EU before a majority in Scotland decide they want Scottish independence ?
Is it that people in Scotland fear that their living standards will be severely reduced with brexit and if it is why don’t people in England have that fear ?
Or is it that there are a lot of people in Scotland who are not actually from Scotland and being in the EU is more important to them than Scotland’s future as a nation ?
Or is there another reason why the threat of leaving the EU led to a majority in favour of Scottish independence
If the Tory bawbags want an indyref with leave/remain and a two thirds majority then they should put their money where their mouth is and campaign for one. They can have an indyref on their terms when they have a mandate of a majority Tory SG, majority number of WM MPs and the largest share of the popular vote.
Democracy in the UK. This is the ballot paper the British Nationalist parties effectively want you to have in 2020 IndyRef2:
We MUST leave this place.
Adam Tompkins (professorship in Orangoligy I presume) now doing his Jimmy Cagney White Heat impression on twitter ‘Made it ma, top of the world’, Boom.
You do have to feel sorry for the Tompkins fella, he will always be referred to as ‘opposition list MSP’, basically because even although the Tories are the second party in Scotland Mr Tompkins could only manage 3rd place, with a derisory 14% of the vote. You would imagine he would be embarrassed to claim a MSP salary when the electorate have such a low confidence in him, but he is a Tory I suppose it’s water off a ducks back.
See the BBC 6pm news we’re the Suprene Court case against Boris was only down to Gina Miller?
So called Scottish news, lol, again everything down to Gina Miller and not Joanne Cherry?
They did though give Ms Cherry 19 seconds to show their weird sense of unbiased balance?
Graphic background to Newsnight discussion between SPADS comprised of wooden signs from left to right: Sinn Fein, green party, Plaid Cymru, labour, Libdem’s, Tories, DUP, SNP & Brexit Party
Now that’s not random.
Oh well – mist be doin something right
The SNP could orchestrate an early Holyrood election by a Vote of No Confidence in the Scot Govt (VONC).
This would be a vote won by a majority of ALL MSPs.
If a Govt cannot be formed that would secure the confidence of a majority of Holyrood MSPs (after 14 days?) an election would then be called.
‘A majority of Scots would vote to stay in the UK in a fresh independence referendum, new polling indicates.
The survey by the Scotland in Union organisation found 59% would vote to remain, while 41% would back independence.
The Survation survey also found 27% of people support Nicola Sturgeon’s plan for a second referendum within 18 months, while 87% of those who don’t want another referendum believe the 2014 contest was a ‘once-in-a-generation’ event.’
link to scotsman.com
Colin Alexander away an bile yer heid.
you are not even subtle. The brass 77th thunders on,
HYUFD @ 11.55.
Ha Ha Ha.ROFLMAO.
Here is the question that should be put to the’democrat’ Willy Rennie.
You signed the Claim of Right when it was debated in Holyrood a few years back. How does that fit with your position on refusing to contemplate a second Indyref?
@BDTT
There’s a couple of papers, first is this one from 2016, section 6 pages 18-20 – “6. What are the options for Scotland?” is about Scotland and seems about right:
link to researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk
and the Arabella Lang is one of the two authors of this one from 2011:
link to researchbriefings.parliament.uk
which has a full paper linked on that page worth looking at, but on that page is this:
“There are at least three different possibilities under international law for a newly-independent Scotland: continuation and secession (the rest of the UK would retain its treaty obligations and membership of international organisations, but Scotland would not); separation (both entities would retain them); and dissolution (both would lose them).”
which means Scotland in Union and their rigged poll can suck it up and admit they’re constitutionally ignorant, as HYFUD appears to be also.
And the 2011 Arabella Long paper is referenced by in the news now for Cherry and Co – Aidan O’Neill – in this commons briefing from February 2012:
link to publications.parliament.uk
and note that the UK Gov’s remitted Crawford & Boyle used a similar set of three ways Scotland could be Independence though of coruse they were effectively the UK Gov’s QCs in their arguments.
So to pick out the neat summary, the three ways of Scotland becoming Independent as in ““There are at least three different possibilities under international law for a newly-independent Scotland”:
1: continuation and secession (the rest of the UK would retain its treaty obligations and membership of international organisations, but Scotland would not);
2. separation (both entities would retain them);
3. and dissolution (both would lose them).
only really option 1 would fit a “leave the UK” option, so Scotland in Union and all the Unionists are as constitutionally democratic as Boris Johnson and his proroguing the UK Parliament to stop Parliamentary scrutiny whenever and as often as he likes.
They, including the likes of HYFUD, are indeed wannabee “tinpot dictators”.
Happy Indy 5 guys!!!
5 years since Indy Ref 1. That’s at least a full generation in politics.
Have Scotland in Union, The Herald and the Tories merged into one indistinguishable entity?
I remember when The Herald was quite a good newspaper, indeed after The Scotsman went seriously Neil I bought The Herald on the way to the office every day.
@H&S
In fairness the Herald points out in its 3rd and 4th paragraph:
“But it asked a different question from that put to voters on the September 18 referendum – Should Scotland be an independent country?
Instead, pollsters asked “Should Scotland remain in the United Kingdom or leave the United Kingdom?” – with 41% of those surveyed supporting independence. ”
and gives good coverage to Keith Brown.
I bought the Herald for at least 30 years until Ian Bell died – he was the only one worth reading latterly.
See Nana’s links here:
link to indyref2.space
Better Together party political broadcast on Radio Scotland Gms just now. Great article by Iain Macwhirter in Herald and a letter from Robert Menzies on hospital problems and how newspapers manipulated his comments as a professional involved in the projects
Oh dear Pamela Nash the Labour No spokesperson thinks we don’t want a referendum. The bile from red Tory and the Tory is clear.
Doubtful poll information announced today. No one wants a referendum.
She got upset over the fact that polls are still roughly 50/50 based on the BBC information.
Oh no ! It’s much closer than that she complains. Is she related to James Kelly?
Drug/drink care should be kept primarily under SNHS care. Not social council care. The councils are not equipped to deal with it. SNHS care provides for total abstinence, one chance’ proper counselling rehab. Councils do not know what they are doing. Ignorant. All health boards expect Grampian referred people to proper primary care, The councils do not, it is a health issue, which becomes a social care issue. If it is not dealt with properly. The councils do not provided proper services. Methadone by nurse practitioners, who drink wine every night, will not deal with it. It just makes it worse, It needs proper medical care. Not council ignoramuses trying to give a quick fix.
The Herald is just nonsense. Do not quote buy it or read it. Just rubbish
UK lawn tennis budget £60Million. Scotland should receive £5Million. It receives £800,000. Scotland ripped off again. The Murray’s have brought in £Billions into UK/Scotland. Tourism etc. Sports fans based worldwide. Yet Scotland is not getting the benefits it should as part of the UK. The usual story. Westminster corruption and lies.
I don’t know exactly what happened last night but the slowing numbers
On the First Minister’s Independence Petition really accelerated over
The last 12 hours adding 2,100 to reach 281,130.
link to yes.scot
link to yes.scot
What is happening with this petition?
Another 120 signatures in a few minutes!
Now 281,250 signed up.
What is happening with this petition?
Another 120 signatures in a few minutes!
Now 281,250 signed up.
See. link to yes.scot
Notice the difference in tone on Gms when David Linden asked what SNP doing to reduce indy abuse and playing up divisions on Yes side.
manandboy at 3.31pm
Excellent post.
Call Kaye at 9 am on Do you want another referendum and what would you change.
Phone 0500 92 95 00
Sms 80295
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Facebook link to facebook.com
Twitter @bbcradioscot
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Lorraine Kelly is such a tax evading Tory. Propaganda
Johnson is completely out of his depth. A brass neck and clown act won’t be enough to see him through now.
“…. a chastening encounter over lunch between Mr Johnson, Michel Barnier and Jean-Claude Juncker, which one official described as a “penny dropping” moment for the prime minister over what it really means to replace the Irish backstop.”
If this story is true then it implies Johnson doesn’t understand the meaning of ‘backstop’ and ‘single market’. His presentations to the EU were well ‘off the mark’.
Or, perhaps he is duplicitous rather than completely stupid and his plan is just to tread water then leave with ‘no-deal’, as many have suspected all along.
link to archive.is
September 18th.
Flags should be flying at half mast across the country. A sad sad day.
It is worth noting that at the same time the “democratic U.K.” has shut down its parliament by a prime minister getting a Queen to agree the order the ” non democratic” (according to the Brexiteers and various Britnat papers) European Parliament is open and proceeding as normal with its business.
The UK is the phoney democracy with its “unwritten constitution” that the media try to convince the hard of thinking is a really really good thing. It’s such a good thing that only the UK and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have “unwritten constitutions”. All the other countries of the world have got it wrong – aye right.
5 years on from indyref1 it’s time for Scotland to rectify the horrendous mistake it made in 2014.
@ galamcennalath – that FT article on Boris Johnston is quite devastating. He does appear to be a complete idiot. I sometimes wonder if he is only acting the goat for comic effect. But no – he is a genuine buffoon.
Call Kaye has a should there be another referendum call in? My God!
Our SiU choooms will be stabbing the phone with inky green fingers in a frenzy – or have the Beeb already lined them up, Union Jokes at the ready?
I listened to a bit of a Kaye phone in yesterday about the gender carry on but changed stations. It was not riveting radio.
The lying Brexiteers were supposed to be taking back control for Parliament. Not shutting it down.
Total liars, trouble causing halfwits. The Tory unionist imbeciles. They could not make a bigger mess. They are a total shambles. An International disgrace. Why do they need so many Judges to decide. What a waste of time and money. Johnston should go to jail. They are wasting £Billion/Trillions. Ruining the world economy. Sycophants.
FFS why is this Jim guy from Dundee allowed to dominate a so called phone in on an independence referendum?
UPDATED Nana’s links here:
link to indyref2.space
Remember, remember the 18th of September. SNP/Independence support even higher. Everything to celebrate. Get the flags oot. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence for a better world. Everything aligning. Just as predicted. Demographics. Everything in play for, everything in place.
The appeal against Dugdale on going. These lying politicians should shut their face. Or they be sued and out of office. Another one down, another one gone. Another one hits the dust.
Because it suits their agenda Sinky.
‘Jim’ frae Dundee won’t change anything, but will add another drip to the bucket.
Problem for them is, their bucket has a hole in it
“What if we don’t let you” the words of the objective (ha ha) Sky news interviewer to Keith Brown re Scotland using the pound immediately after independence. The arrogance and ignorance is quite stupendous. Who exactly is “we”. It’s not the UK as it won’t exist.
The objective (ha ha again) interviewer then quotes the SIU pockled recent poll.
Is there anyone in Scotland who still thinks the media are not totally biased against Scottish independence. Are there really people that naive..
Wee Willie Rennie was also in the same interview promoting his Lib anti democrat party policies.
Jings!
Radio shortbread introducing a new politics discussion programme ‘The big debate’ and an accompanying phone in at night.
Shurley there’s an election and or referendum coming!
Auntie wie a kilt getting her ducks in line to massage the news where you are.
I can imagine all the old labour ex-politicians trundling on to tell us how awful it would be to be independent.
How Auntie will manage the appearance of folk from darn Sarf I don’t know but they will I’m certain. 🙂
@Jock McDonnell says:
17 September, 2019 at 7:48 pm
@Big Del – its all defined in law – the Scotland Act 1998 I think.
Thanks very much Jock. 100% turned him last night…
No enough women judges. Unequal, unfair.
Capella says:
Seems that way. I’ve had google search and have found nothing much in terms of worthwhile achievements. Apart from self promotion, nothing much.
Here’s a BBC (of all places) covering his ‘achievements’. Amounts to hee-haw, basically.
link to archive.is
Some folks push the theory that it’s all an act and behind the facade is substance. Ah hey ma doots.
Much controversy, false claims, and cracking totally un-pc jokes.
And yet English Tories seem to like him. I just don’t get it. I see buffoon. I suspect the rest of the world sees buffoon. A grossly over confident buffoon, and therefore a dangerous buffoon.
BBC Scotland low viewers/listening. Folk get fed up of the nonsense.
The Nine is a bit better. Scottish Channel some programmes OK, A L B A has some good programmes. Enigma Scandi drama.
Take yer choice, Not Kaye rubbish. Do not call. Boycot. Just a wind up. They make money from the phone calls. A money making machine. The more they annoy folk. The more folk phone it. Just an annoyance.
link to archive.is
THE UK: A PANTOMIME OF CONCERN, WHILE DIRECTING ALL THE POWER AND CASH ELSEWHERE.
As good a definition of the UK under the Tories for nine years as you’ll get anywhere.
“even while the British state has given tens of thousands to the incoming trust and to the consultants on the interim board of governors.
Barely any of that money has reached the children, of course, but that is perhaps the point of British democracy today: a pantomime of concern, while directing all the power and cash elsewhere.”
Aditya Chakrabortty, writing in the Guardian.
‘Ken500 says:
18 September, 2019 at 7:32 am
Drug/drink care should be kept primarily under SNHS care. Not social council care. The councils are not equipped to deal with it. SNHS care provides for total abstinence, one chance’ proper counselling rehab. Councils do not know what they are doing. Ignorant. All health boards expect Grampian referred people to proper primary care, The councils do not, it is a health issue, which becomes a social care issue. If it is not dealt with properly. The councils do not provided proper services. Methadone by nurse practitioners, who drink wine every night, will not deal with it.’
A close family member was a nurse for 40 years, and yes on her nights off she would sometimes drink wine. I went to her retirement do, it was one of the most fun nights of all time. A great bunch of wimmen, and lots of wine taken by all. Total professionals the lot of them. Doctors now – THEY drink like judges.
My relative died 2 years ago and the world is a lesser place for it.
With regards total abstinence around alcohol. The AA do tremendous work in this regard, including being there for folk who fall off the wagon and need to get back on again.
Interestingly, while this method works for some, there is another method which produces good results, and is pertinent to this blog, because Scotland (and unless it has changed very recently – England’s NHS does not) Scotland has allowed for the medications to be prescribed in this country.
It is called the Sinclair Method. Dr Sinclair was studying the effects of alcohol on the brain in the 1950’s. They used rats for their experiments and the first thing they found is that most rats are not attracted to alcohol. The experiments continued once they found sufficient rats that did, and they got them addicted to alcohol. Then they subjected them to total abstinence. For months at a time. What they found then, is very enlightening, the rats who had been dried out, were now more attracted to alcohol, their addiction had strengthened in the interim period.
Dr Sinclair looked at which parts of the brain got lit up by alcohol, and discovered that in large part (but not exclusively) the same parts of the brain that get a high from opiates, also light up with alcohol. He then wondered and put into practice that if you prescribed opiate blockers (a safe non addictive substance) and a person took alcohol – there would be no chemical high/reward and the alcoholic would re program their brain and naturally wean themselves off alcohol. He submitted peer review studies of his work and went on to work in Finland where his treatments have a 70% success rating.
The opiate blockers themselves cost about £70 for a months supply – so it is an extremely cost efficient treatment plan.
The one sad thing /(given its success rates) is how little known about it is – even amongst alcohol abuse centres in Scotland, and GP’s. If you want it, you need to know to ask for it.
There is really good info about it on the 3CFoundation – you tube.
Kind regards to all – especially the nurses.
An emphasized part of the defence from Johnson’s advocate is that there is precedence for proroguing parliament for purely political reasons, as if that exonerates Boris’s obviously political motivation. But in so doing, that also acknowledges that he was in fact acting politically.
So the question is, did he ask the Queen to prorogue parliament on that basis or not? Hard to believe the Queen would collaborate in such political manipulation, so we are only left with the likelihood that he(through his envoys) lied to the Queen.
@ Robert J Sutherland 10.23 on 17th Sept: thanks for responding! From the dearth of comments I take it the idea won’t fly.
It is a pity because in all seriousness, it is the fact that the SNP doesn’t stand outwith Scotland that gives BBC etc the excuse of not including them in programmes. But an Indy candidate in England, particularly Alex, should get some hearing – a great platform to inform the largely ignorant [about Scotland and Treaty of Union] English voters of the facts and issues.
Sarah & Robert
If I lived in that constituency, why would I vote for, or pay any interest to someone who will most likely not see out their term?
I think it is quite a sensible policy for the Lib Dems if they want to maximize their MP’s at the next election. They are triangulating that attitude on Brexit will be decisive on who to vote for in England an Wales and that attitude to independence will be decisive on who to vote for in Scotland. So they are selling themselves as ultra-remainers and ultra-unionist. Whether you think holding these two policy positions can be rationalized really doesn’t matter as long as you believe they will do as they say voted into parliament.
Just tweeted this to Willie Rennie hoping he is on a truenlearning curve day.
Doubt it though but it would be nice
BORIS IS TOAST. wrong post but nothing later.
The supreme court is dealing with 2 appeals , one for the goverment and one for the opposition. 1-1 as the media would have it. The london case was only about the PM’s right to set prorogation, this is total and the case was lost. no probs.
the Edinburgh case was about the reasons given to the Queen about Prorgation and the Judges deemed that the time was to long and the reasons given were not valid so the goverment lost.( Boris Lied !)
So 1-0 to the opposition.
@defo: I feel perhaps you haven’t given it much thought.
People vote for all kinds of reasons. Look at the votes the Monster Raving Loony candidates get! Unless they think MRLP is another name for Conservative/LibDm/Labour? Understandable of course.
But as I tried to explain, it is the platform to get some truths more widely known and lessen the ignorance about Scotland’s status.
George Brown says:
18 September, 2019 at 3:57 pm
BORIS IS TOAST. wrong post but nothing later.
The supreme court is dealing with 2 appeals , one for the goverment and one for the opposition. 1-1 as the media would have it. The london case was only about the PM’s right to set prorogation, they only looked at the procedure and the case was lost. no probs.
the Edinburgh case was about the reasons given to the Queen about Prorgation and the Judges deemed that the time was to long and the reasons given were not valid so the goverment lost.( Boris Lied !)
So 1-0 to the opposition. If the tories lose Boris is gone.
If as looks likely brexit des not happen on 31st October Boris will be in his ditch. Being a clasicalist i would expect him to choose Hadrians or Antoninnes wall over Offa’s dyke. Most likely Antonnines as that is in England. Either way I can’t see how he could stay on as PM.
If anybody agrees with this line of thinking you could avail yourself of the 3/1 offered on betfair and a couple of other sites that Boris will not be leader of the tories at the next election. You won’t get rich as they limit you to £120 bet.If anybody can find other betting sites offering this bet please let me know.
Update to my last post Boris is toast
The supreme court is dealing with 2 appeals , one for the goverment and one for the opposition. 1-1 as the media would have it. The london case was only about the PM’s right to set prorogation, they only looked at the procedure and the case was lost. no probs.
the Edinburgh case was about the reasons given to the Queen about Prorgation and the Judges deemed that the time was to long and the reasons given were not valid so the goverment lost.( Boris Lied !)
So 1-0 to the opposition. If the tories lose Boris is gone.
If as looks likely brexit des not happen on 31st October Boris will be in his ditch. Being a clasicalist i would expect him to choose Hadrians or Antoninnes wall over Offa’s dyke. Most likely Antonnines as that is in England. Either way I can’t see how he could stay on as PM.
If anybody agrees with this line of thinking you could avail yourself of the 3/1 offered on betfair and a couple of other sites that Boris will not be leader of the tories at the next election. You won’t get rich as they limit you to £120 bet.If anybody can find other betting sites offering this bet please let me know.