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Wings Over Scotland


Song for 18 September 2019

Posted on September 18, 2019 by

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    1. 18 09 19 10:56

      Song for 18 September 2019 | speymouth

    105 to “Song for 18 September 2019”

    1. Frank Gillougley says:

      love that album – it’s just so bleak, destitute and without hope.
      love the timbre of his voice blending the lyrics with the songs.

      guess its just how i’ve always felt politically being scottish

    2. galamcennalath says:

      “Patience is not the ability to wait, but the ability to keep a good attitude while waiting.” …. said someone.

      And that’s proving to be bloody hard!

    3. Sharny Dubs says:

      As usual Stu, right in the money, talking heads.
      Springsteen’s a nice break.

    4. Somerled says:

      It felt cold inside, so we threw the radio onto the fire
      It felt good to watch it, burn away to nothing

      Idlewild – The Bronze Medal

    5. dakk says:

      Fuck sake Stuart.

      You must got it real bad.

      Know the feeling.

    6. Somerled says:

      Saw Bruce Springsteen and E Street Band at Hampden in 2016, the best gig i’ve ever been to, over 3 hours in the Scottish sunshine. He opened with Waiting on a Sunny Day, played every song i wanted to hear.

    7. winifred mccartney says:

      You can just hear the arguments building – if leaving EU after 40 years is so difficult how can you leave a Union 300 years old – the difference is – who is doing it – the terrible ‘dark money’ tax evading off-shore tories or the SOVEREIGN PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.

      I have always believed Brexit is about the new EU regulations coming in about tax havens/off shore accounts and was stirred up by the rich ERG and rich establishment figures who still think they are in charge of the world, better than everyone else and will share power/finance with no one. A mindset exemplified by bumbling ‘I know best’ bojo.

    8. Frank Gillougley says:

      Yeah, Scotland a cadaver, I thought after that night.
      What’s changed, or progressed in the last 5 years? Really?

      To paraphrase William Blake –
      Some are born to sweet delight,
      and some are born to the endless shite.

    9. aulbea1 says:

      In Fuerteventura – feeling the same way.

    10. Phronesis says:

      A lament for the US that is crumbling under its egregious leadership.The UK and its copycat egregious leadership follows in its wake;

      ‘Meanwhile, our country inches closer to fascism and authoritarianism daily because we fail to take action…It’s time we reckon with the country we’ve built. It’s not in a good place and we risk losing everything if we don’t alter the path we are on…Trump and the Republican party are essentially defying democracy. They are breaking all of the norms of government and no longer see the branches of government as equal. They blatantly disregard rules and requests and attempt to get away with anything that they can…Over 30 million Americans don’t have health insurance and the number is increasing yearly due to Trump’s dismantling of the Affordable Care Act…Climate change is threatening the planet and half of our federally elected officials refuse to acknowledge that it is even real…Almost 40 million Americans live in poverty’
      https://medium.com/discourse/the-united-states-is-crumbling-43f9aba010ab

      The real reason for Brexit and the gruesome deception;

      ‘To convince the British people to vote remain, Mr Cameron had to remind them that by staying in the EU, his government would have had to implement EU’s Anti Tax Avoidance Directive by the year 2019, by enacting new laws and collecting taxes from everyone, including our tax-dodging billionaires…However, throughout his political career, Mr Cameron wasn’t keen on ending extreme austerity measures by collecting taxes from the wealthy elite registered in tax havens…Every time the EU undertook momentous actions to end tax-avoidance amongst its member states, Mr Cameron responded by issuing his momentous announcements regarding the British EU referendum’

      https://nolanjazimreg.wordpress.com/2017/05/22/tories-gruesome-brexit-deception/

      The most effective political outcome is within the gift of Scotland’s electorate and will recalibrate the ‘equal partnership’, snuff out the flames of fascism and bring WM into line with a functioning democracy. Campaign, march and vote for Scotland’s independence. We only need 51%.

    11. Ghillie says:

      September 18th 2014 :

      I felt so excited, so very optimistic and so lifted knowing we would all soon be living in Independent Scotland 🙂

      September 18th 2019:

      I feel so excited, so very optimistic and so very very lifted knowing now that we WILL all be living in Independent Scotland 🙂 🙂 🙂

    12. manandboy says:

      http://archive.is/5WY5a

      THE TORIES :A PANTOMIME OF CONCERN.

      “British democracy today: a pantomime of concern, while directing all the power and cash elsewhere.”
      (Aditya Chakrabortty)

    13. Giving Goose says:

      I believe that at some point in the near future there will be a reassessment of Springsteen and people will come to their senses and realise that he’s rubbish.

      Just my opinion you understand.

      A bit like Bowie, who was just a marketing ad and basically conned people into thinking he was fashionable, just like the latest pair of jeans.

      Anyway, Independence is fashionable.
      I read rumours that Nicola has a game plan of sorts, perhaps connected with a visit to Berlin?

    14. desimond says:

      I can see by your eyes friend you’re just about gone
      Fifty-seven channels and nothin’ on

    15. manandboy says:

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1174233142556839940.html

      This is a 900-word summary of what happened in the Supreme Court yesterday, for anyone who is catching up in order to follow today.

      Probably more detailed than what you’ll read in the papers, but hopefully more accessible than listening to 5 hours of submissions.

    16. Fireproofjim says:

      Watching the Supreme Court arguments it occurred to me that the Act of Union in 1707 specifically guaranteed Scottish Law to be supreme in Scotland for all time.
      Who, in Scotland, agreed to sent up a court that was able to overrule Scottish Law? And Why?
      I believe Tony Blair was PM at the time but can’t remember why there was no outrage from the Law society here.
      Anybody help me?

    17. galamcennalath says:

      Ghillie says:

      September 18th 2014

      I was told early in that year from someone down south close to the action that if things ever got close Cameron would offer DevoMax. It might have been a fair compromise, we’ll never know. It was only in the last couple of weeks that I realised the plan was never to actually promise DevoMax, but to just hint, imply and lie. Scotland was royally shafted in that last ditch defence of their Union.

      September 18th 2019

      I am still optimistic that IndyRef2 will happen and we will win. Next time it is going to be extremely hard for BritNats to fabricate a plausible positive case for maintaining the UK. Lies and false promises have become chaff in the wind, everywhere and nowhere.

    18. Terry says:

      The Clash. White Man in Hammersmith Palais. 1977

      The new groups are not concerned
      With what there is to be learned
      They got Burton suits, ha, you think it’s funny
      Turning rebellion into money

      All over people changing their votes
      Along with their overcoats
      If Adolf Hitler flew in today
      They’d send a limousine anyway

    19. desimond says:

      To paraphrase my favourite Springsteen lyric..

      “Walk Like A Man”

      I remember how rough your hand felt on mine
      On non Independence day
      And the tears cried on my shoulder
      I couldn’t turn away
      Well so much has happened to our country
      That I don’t understand
      All I can think of is five years ago following behind you at the beach
      Tracing your footprints in the sand
      Trying to walk like a man

      ..

      Well now the years have gone and how we’ve grown
      From that seed ’14 has sown
      But I didn’t think there’d be so many steps
      I’d have to learn on my own
      Well I was young and I didn’t know what to do
      When I saw your best steps stolen away from you
      Now I’ll do what I can
      I’ll walk like a man
      And I’ll keep on walkin’

    20. SilverDarling says:

      Alan Bissett said it best. When ‘Jim from Dundee’ was on Kaye Adams this morning going on about dog poo and council cuts I was frantically looking for this:

      https://twitter.com/Zarkwan/status/1003700998161002496

      It laid out the coming years perfectly with all the BT players maintaining their roles. If Stu and Alan Bissett could see what’s ahead why not others? It is playing out before our eyes and we knew it was going to happen.

      So here we are.

    21. manandboy says:

      Imagine that your favourite local supermarket, where you do all your shopping, and which has all the stuff you and your family likes, imagine it was taken over by a criminal consortium of dodgy businessmen.

      Now imagine that your favourite supermarket is the UK.

      That’s what’s happening in Westminster right now.

      This is real; it is really happening. Cummings-Johnson and their backers are dismantling Parliamentary Democracy, to be replaced by what they want – an autocracy. Better known as a Dictatorship.

      In a Democracy, the public get some of the cake.
      In an Autocracy, the public get a whole lot less,the minimum.

      Still smiling at Johnson’s joking buffoonery?

      Go behind the curtain and you won’t be laughing.

    22. Ghillie says:

      galamcenalath @ 11.16 am

      Well isn’t that interesting.

      Of course we should have realised that after the Project Fear phase fizzled there would be an alternative tactic and no doubt something similar, or who knows maybe quite different, will be rolled out again.

      But this time we are 5 years wiser. 5 years further educated. 5 years more tuned in and aware and critical.

      5 years of waiting intensifies the yearning and determination.

      And NEVER in those 5 years has my belief, actually, my KNOWING that Scotland will be Independent ever wavered.

      It’s coming yet for a that 🙂

    23. callmedave says:

      Lots of awkward Q’s for the Gov Lawyer Eadie there from a number of Judges putting him somewhat on the back foot for a while.

      A good sign I hope. 🙂

    24. manandboy says:

      On Indyref2 : by the time the next Scottish Independence Referendum comes round, the goalposts will have been changed by an unrecognisable Westminster ‘Government’ in which Democracy has been relegated to the bench.
      Then, playing by a whole new set of Cummings-Johnson rules, under which, as soon as Scotland touches the indyref2 ball, Westminster will declare we’re ‘offside’ to be followed by a red card.

      Watch out for the militarisation of the Treaty of Union and in the way Westminster treats Scotland.

      From ballots to bayonets.

      Independence is about to cease being a choice.

    25. Partick Bateman says:

      Great track. I think they used it in an episode of The Sopranos, right after Tony tries to kill his Mother.

    26. callmedave says:

      Gov lawyer Eadie’s “The Gov can do what it chooses so what, suck it up folks, the parliament is the only judge” isn’t receiving the usual seal of approval from what I can see.

      The judges are still asking more Q’s and have less cheery faces

    27. Cubby says:

      Johnson’s disgraceful behaviour has highlighted the dogs dinner of a mess the UK “unwritten” constitution really is. Pretty undemocratic as well considering all these prerogative powers that a PM and monarch have as well.

      In theory and possibly in practice a PM and a compliant monarch could just keep shutting down the UK Parliament for the vast majority of the year.

      The mother of all parliaments – always a lie now a joke.

    28. Liz g says:

      All this leaving a 40 year Union is so hard so leaving a 300 year old one will be worse shit…
      Well
      What’s makin it hard for Westminster is their Irish Back stop and their Obligations to the Good Friday Agreement.
      That’s what they say and that’s what their pet media are pushing

      Scotland doesn’t need an Irish back stop.
      Scotland has no signed the Good Friday Agreement.
      Scotland is under nae obligation to the GFA.
      Of all the things that would be much better for an Independent Scotland to tackle.
      Even leaving the EU ( if we voted that way) would be much more civilised and straightforward for Scotland if we weren’t shackled to the UK Union!
      There’s no one in the USA sayin Scotland can’t have a trade deal if the Good Friday Agreement is messed up.
      And the DUP can never have a casting vote in Holyrood….

      Westminster’s difficulties in leaving the EU are no actually applicable to Scotland unless it stays in the UK Union!

    29. galamcennalath says:

      “Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has been given an award by the German media for being “the voice of reason” in the Brexit crisis.

      She was presented with the award at a ceremony held in Potsdam at the international media conference M100 Sanssouci Colloquium.

      The awards are given to people who are considered to have defended democracy, media freedom and European cohesion. “

      https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/18/scotland-s-nicola-sturgeon-gets-award-for-being-voice-of-reason-on-brexit

      Mixed feels on the apparent obsession with Brexit, however the up side of this is obvious. Higher profile for Scotland and its government in Europe, being seen to stand on the ‘EU side’, and being responsible.

      And in Scotland, being seen as reasonable, in contrast to London and Tories being unreasonable, will be attracting NO/Remainers to Indy as a solution.

      What we need to see soon is the SG capitalising on all this attention and being reasonable. They must put Indy on the front burner and giving up anti-Brexit ideas as a lost cause. The cause needs to be Indy, and soon.

    30. callmedave says:

      The ‘No Witness’ statement by the Gov seems to be a problem for the judges to accept easily.

      More Q’s and flustered Eadie fighting to quell doubts and reassure. 🙂

    31. Cubby says:

      Eadie the Advocate for the UK gov is making an argument that is blown out the water by the very fact that Johnson could just prorogue Parliament again as soon as it is reconvened next month. For all we know that may be Johnson/Cummings plan.

      The UK constitution (whatever it is) is clearly not fit for the purpose of a modern European democracy. Perhaps that’s the intention of the “unwritten” constitution.

    32. callmedave says:

      “Even if prorogation gave the Gov an advantage it was not illegal”. says Eadie!

      (meaning… Yaboo suck it up!)

      The judges all laugh and smile at that.

      🙂 Jolly hockey sticks. He might regret that I hope.

    33. callmedave says:

      “Scotland is another country” says our lawyer on right of reply and cites numerous cases in Scotland where a witness statement is a common occurrence. (Deputy FM being one)

      Ah! Lunch break.

      Just when it was beginning to rise above tedium level 1.
      Fascinating init!

    34. Cubby says:

      Charles the first prorogued the English parliament for 9 years. Not a lot has changed since then. The name of the parliament has formally changed from English to UK and proroguing now requires a PM and the monarch to carry it out.

      The whole concept is completely wrong.

    35. Frank Gillougley says:

      Having listened to the QC Eadie for the govt. all morning, I’d say my take is that the Supreme Court won’t touch this legally with a bargepole and the SC will do a Pontius Pilate.

      Either way, how this will play out politically in the aftermath re the independence cause we might know in another 5 years.

      – Right, i’m off to get some shopping done.

    36. Iain mhor says:

      As the late, great environmentalist and campaigner Orri Vigfusson said of Scotland : “You are studying your wild salmon to death”
      That, could be said as well about Scottish Independence.

      I acknowledge the irony of posting at all in relation to the OP – The Point. Missed.
      Better be hung for a sheep as a lamb then I suppose and quote “Something’s actually happening Reg!”
      Someone’s got to do it again, might as well be me.
      Here’s the offending scene for a little levity.

      http://tinyurl.com/yyp8gelg

    37. Tam the Bam. says:

      Completely off-topic I know but just thought I’d remind folk that as well as today being the 5th anniversary of the 2014 Indyref…today also marks the 49th anniversary of the death of Jimi Hendrix.

    38. Sarah says:

      O/T: anyone else noticed that Joanne Cherry hasn’t airbrushed Alex Salmond out of view – her twitter retweets him today and has him on a 2014 photo.

      Interesting. And encouraging?

    39. SilverDarling says:

      @Sarah 1.36 pm

      Innocent until proven guilty and a sense of decency and personal loyalty on the part of Joanna Cherry.

      Airbrushing Salmond out of IndyRef1 no matter what they think of him personally is appalling.

    40. Ken500 says:

      Remember, remember the 18th September. SNP/Independence support increasing. Just as predicted. Demographic. Everything to look forward. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other to vote as well Just for good measure. Vote for a better world.

      Pupils in Scotland have more choice than the rest of the UK.

      They can study 5 Highers. To the rest of the UK three ‘A’ levels. Students in Scotland have more choice and less debt. Life long learning. College and apprenticeships. 50% go to uni. Scotland has one of the most highly educated population in the world. 5.2Million pop. 15 Universities. Colleges and apprenticeship. Life long learning. One of the highest ratios % in the world.

      On of the best accessible healthcare systems. MUP.

    41. Cubby says:

      Alex Salmond on twitter – If I had known that Johnson was going to become PM and Britain was poised for a hard Brexit I would have delayed the 2014 referendum and now looked forward to a 60% plus yes vote.

      Looks like Salmond doesn’t share the same opinion that all the Wings posters have been pushing for Indyref2 to have taken place years ago.

    42. Ken500 says:

      The London Court can be appealed to ECHR. ECHR uphold the principle of self government and self determination. If people vote for it.

      S30 agreed or Johnston goes to jail. If he lasts to October. On to the next IndyRef. S30 can be obtained through the Courts because Scotland has not been treated equally by the UK Parliament. The reason Scotland got (limited) Devolution. Breaking UN/International Law. People who make Law should not break the Law. Another IndyRef has to be agreed and guaranteed or Westminster politicians will be sanctioned.

      Aidan O’Neil AC was an adamant unionist who believed Scotland should never be granted or agreed an IndyRef. He argued it was unlawful. Until Brexit. Change of mind. He makes his humongous (public) salary from arguing EU Law. ECHR. A bit of self interest often changes people’s mind.

    43. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Iain Mhor@1.18pm

      Sounds a bit like a quote I have to remind myself of when thinking about art. Be careful, you don’t talk yourself out of an idea.

      Anyhoo, there’s enough doom and gloom about, yes five years ago Scotland voted for dependance and Britnat rule, but that only took the wind out of our sails temporarily. Good to see Nicola Sturgeon today getting a positive platform in Berlin, and talking about independence.

      ‘Don’t let the bastrds (Britnats) get you down’, as they say.

      ‘Don’t stop, thinking about tomorrow’ ‘yesterdays gone, yesterdays gone’, Fleetwood Mac.

      I think I will listen to ‘Caledonia’ today, and lots of good Scottish songs. My son likes the film of lots of Scots singers singing ‘Caesar!’ on youtube, yep that’s my go to for today.

      There are so many great artists and musicians, writers, actors, etc in Scotland. Let’s celebrate Scotland and Scottish culture. Dance sing, play the pipes, I love hearing them at Waverley. ( why do so many people not like them?) Ditch the Scottish cringe.

      Ps, when we were wee ones on day trips to Scotland, when parents could afford it because NE Eng families were horrendously poor even if your parents worked a 60 hour week, it WAS a different country to us, it still is and don’t ever forget that.

      Independence is closer than ever, let’s keep countering the sheer lies the media spin about Scotland every day, most people know it’s utter tosh, the daiy rags are left on the shelves, complete waste of paper.

      Let’s get a wee green book going to hand out, that’s crucial.
      It could be gold in colour though, that might be nice. Maybe we could have three, bronze, silver and gold! 🙂

    44. boris says:

      fireproofjim 1116am. Queried the legitimacy of the UK Supreme Court. I covered this in a blog post a few years back. Nothing since has changed my view. It was a con job instigated by Blair and his cronies in New Labour

      https://caltonjock.com/2016/11/10/the-uk-supreme-court-an-illegal-pseudo-body-tasked-with-ensuring-the-protection-of-westminster-sod-the-scots-and-their-claim-of-right/

    45. Artyhetty says:

      Woah!!!!
      I did NOT type Caeser! FFS, I typed ‘ALBA’!! Bloody hell, that’s really weird.

    46. Artyhetty says:

      Ps I do not have auto correct on this device…so no way could ALBA translate into Caeser. Jeez.

    47. galamcennalath says:

      “Nicola Sturgeon presented with German media award “

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17908986.nicola-sturgeon-presented-german-media-award/

      Getting virtually no coverage. Imagine if Jo Swinson had received the award. It would be wall to wall across the MSM!

    48. Scott says:

      Johnson confronted during London hospital visit

      I liked this video the person did not hold back and Boris not very happy and why did the Staff person try to stop the questioning of Boris.

      BBC website have a look.

    49. manandboy says:

      KEITH BROWN GETS THIS WEEK’S GOLD STAR

      1/2 Excellent ripostes from @KeithBrownSNP on polling and to quite outrageous statements from @colinbraziersky on ‘once in a generation’, ‘avowedly federalist party’, and ‘what if we don’t let you’ use the pound. https://t.co/demackhTSk

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      Jesus, that explains a lot. Next it’ll be After the Goldrush. Where’s that bath …

    51. Frank Gillougley says:

      Bewildering historical sermonising by Aidan O Neill in his outlining the preliminaries. Sailing verra close to windbaggery. Meanwhile, Eadie sitting to his right has his thumb in his ear and trying to get some work done during this jackanory.

      So far, so poor. He’s an embarassing proud scotbutterer in this context.

    52. callmedave says:

      @Artyhetty

      That word always translates to Caeser!
      Wings filter does it automatically. 🙂

    53. carjamtic says:

      They might throws rocks at your back and call you a friend, but it will be carved in stane one day….here lies a Cnut, a good Cnut, a hero of Scotlands own life story.

      Dinnae furget it…..aye you ya….

    54. callmedave says:

      Time O Neill was getting on with the case a wee bit without all the distractions… 🙁

    55. SilverDarling says:

      Interesting that Alex Salmond says he would have delayed the first referendum if he had known what was coming. Hindsight is always 20-20 vision.

      Some people did foresee BoJo as PM, certainly as Tory leader. Blair Mcdougall is on video famously poo pooing the idea:

      https://www.snp.org/indyref-5-years-on-better-together-promises-have-turned-to-dust/

      Maybe the lesson is that opportunities come and go and who is to know when they will come again if you do not take advantage of them. The Tories in power can always make things worse than you could imagine in your worst nightmare so do not give them the chance.

    56. Famous15 says:

      OK Like others I thought Aiden o’Neill QC was a havering slobberrer till the knife started to go in and OMG he is good.

    57. manandboy says:

      The way I see it, Independence is slowly coming into being.

      It is evolution, not revolution.

      It’s not overnight, but over time.

      Forward, but not fast-forward.

      Impatience conceals the desire to live in the future, now.

      Indy2014 was stand-alone. Now it’s England alone.

      Read the signs. Not the Papers.

      Watch out & watch where you’re going. To get lost, watch TV.

      Scotland can be a normal, healthy independent country.

      England is become, daily, more skewed, warped and corrupted.

      Hold firm, and take heart.

      Independence is surely coming.

    58. dadsarmy says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OWj0CiM8WU

      I was there 5 years ago. Still YES.

    59. dadsarmy says:

      Back in 2011 Aidan O’Neill QC (neither unionist nor independentist) had this article in the Grun:

      https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/nov/08/uk-supreme-court-scottish-independence

      Needs thinking about, it ends with this: “In this way might the SNP’s primary political aim be achieved, even against the wishes of the Scottish people. That’s why we need to talk about the referendum.

    60. defo says:

      Phronesis

      I imagine a fair few billionaire sphincters will be fair a flapping this Hogmanay, if the UK is on yet another EU extension.

      At times like these Stu, I find a touch of Mogwai, or a dollop of the Cocteau Twins relieves the psyche.

      We’re beyond words now.

      Batcat
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMDCM5OAOaE#t=17.720708

      Carolyn’s Fingers
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhGoZLudKyk

    61. callmedave says:

      Aye, O Neill doing better in the last 25mins or so.
      Landing a few blows but no KO…yet.

      Mind you, the consequences of a win may be too much to contemplate for the 11 Solomons.

    62. Proud Cybernat says:

      “LOOK at the documentation. Look upset. But DON’T look sceptical!” O’Neil chides SC Judge.

      The “You can’t handle the truth!!” moment.

    63. Terry Callachan says:

      In Dundee the radio stations we can get are nearly all pop stations blasting out old pop stuff every hour of the day

    64. callmedave says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Aye! Good spot.
      Get Boris in to court.

      “Boris did you call a Code Red?”

      “F&*ckin Right I did!”….”Oops” 🙁 We wish.

    65. Terry Callachan says:

      Radio LBC is awful but I listen to it every morning , it gives me a clear picture of how the other side are thinking especially the phone ins to Mr Ferrari and Mr O’Brien.

      I actually feel quite good after it because you can’t help but think how crazy these people are that want brexit no deal and want all the police with tasers you also get to hear how little they know about Scotland and it’s place in the UK

    66. manandboy says:

      “Aidan O’Neill QC gives an almost psychological explanation of how * the distance of Edinburgh from London allows the Scottish courts to have perspective and see when a government action is just wrong.* (Adam Wagner on Twitter)

      And yet, in England, always in the background, hovers a residual but powerful anti-Scots colonial prejudice, which, allied to English superiority and entitlement, makes it virtually impossible for English opinion and judgement to represent a true and fair view of all things Scottish.

      M’lud.

    67. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/nov/08/uk-supreme-court-scottish-independence

      QC he may be, but Aidan O’Neill in the following extract, reveals a glaring inadequacy. *-*.

      “The underlying premise of referenda is, of course, that it is “the people” who are sovereign. And this is where the problem with the proposed Scottish referendum on independence comes in. The UK is a unitary state, not a federation. This remains the case even after devolution. Power devolved from the Westminster centre is power retained rather than power ceded, and sovereignty divided. If the UK, as a constitutional monarchy, allows for the notion of a “sovereign people”, then it encompasses all the peoples of the United Kingdom. On this constitutional model, *the “Scottish people” are no more sovereign than the “people of Basingstoke” or the “men of Kent” or the “women of Wales”*.”

    68. manandboy says:

      Ps. To be fair to Aidan O’Neill QC, that was 8 years ago.

    69. callmedave says:

      “Listen to the Angels of your souls let them be your guide” M’Luds. 🙂

      Aye Right!

      Adjourned!

    70. dadsarmy says:

      @manandboy
      Indeed, but also I’m not sure now how to take the article, hence my quote of the last part of it. It’s almost like he was saying that Indy Ref 1 in Scotland would fail, but the rest of the UK would happily kick us out given half a chance. Much as some Indy supporters say these days.

      The other thing is the reference to Salmond and McAskill re the SC, and considering his submission and aggressive attitude towards the SC, one does wonder what’s going on, exactly. It’s kind of like – “be unfair, if you dare”. Put up, or shut up, indeed.

    71. Proud Cybernat says:

      Jo Maugham QC
      ?
      Verified account

      @JolyonMaugham

      “Chatter from sources – and on bulletin boards – that Govt wants to reserve SC time for a challenge to the Benn Act. I mention this because there is no challenge, otherwise than in EU law, to an Act. But who of us would be surprised if this Govt set out deliberately to misinform?”

    72. dadsarmy says:

      Seems to be a blow by blow here by the way, but won’t be tomorrow from him:

      https://twitter.com/RobertCraig3

    73. Arthur Thomson says:

      O/T

      Can anyone tell me if there is to be an Indy event in George Square this Saturday? (22nd).

    74. dadsarmy says:

      Yes, O’Neill pushing the point in his submission, that the CoS made the better decision, the basis of Law it made it on was better (Scots Law), and that higher standard should apply across the Union, not just in Scotland 🙂 In other words, GIRFUY English lower standard law with a small “l”. That argument has a built-in acceptance that the CoS correctly interpreted Scots Law, which it did of course.

      @Arthur Thomson
      Accord the Herald it is, as there’s the rally in Freedom Square with a march past by 50 people from an independent Orange lodge.

    75. dadsarmy says:

      Hope Over Fear presumably I forgot to say!

    76. kapelmeister says:

      The delaying actions of the unionists become more desperate. The Tories and Liberals now both signed up to the concept of Scotland being told outright that it will be kept in the UK, even if it is demonstrably against our will. Labour cannot be long in joining this coalition of the colonisers.

      Willie Rennie attempting to rationalise and justify these fresh humiliations to his country. In denial that these fly in the face of liberal principles. His dumb, bovine look says it all.

    77. Liz g says:

      Dadsarmy @ 4.36
      There’s been a “March Past” at least once before at the Hope Over fear Rally’s in the square.
      It’s a clash of dates as far as I remember and has no significance on why,or to why, we’re there.
      It gets announced from the stage and we just all get on with what we are doing. It’s over in minutes… No reason why it should be a problem.. Never was before!
      Everyone jist keep the heid, mind the language there’s weans aboot and the Indy dugs don’t like it much either.
      Film any monkey business and concentrate on networking for Indy Ref two 🙂

    78. hackalumpoff says:

      Aidan O’Neill’s excellent closing words.

      https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1174349416867749893?s=20

    79. JMD says:

      Kapelmeister

      Re Rennie’s fascistic leanings, any media worth any respect whatsoever would have headlined his recent comments something like this –

      “LibDem Rennie continues to insist that Scots are 2nd class citizens who should not be “allowed” any vote on Scotland’s future.”

    80. dadsarmy says:

      Ah right, here’s now an early crossover to get the minds thinking, even though it would start in the Inner House of the CoS – the case lodged to force BoJo to honour the 3 month extension bill/act. 50(3). Yes, no point a court insisting on waiting for the bullet then wringing its hands “If only we’d known” when the bullet hits the target and the target is deid. O’Neill takes no prisoners. All part of the non-existent plan 🙂

      https://twitter.com/RobertCraig3/status/1174332883877670912

      @Liz g
      I think there may have been one when I went in 2014, there was something of interest anyway which most people just ignored. Some friendly banter was all I think.

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fireproofjim says: 18 September, 2019 at 11:16 am:

      ” … I believe Tony Blair was PM at the time but can’t remember why there was no outrage from the Law society here.
      Anybody help me?”

      I’ve been helping you for a considerable time, Fireproofjim, but it is obvious you just don’t get this idea of the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty, do you?

      It is not for either Nicola Sturgeon, Ian Blackford nor the entire Scottish legal system to do anything off their own bat. Their jobs are to respect and do the legally sovereign people of Scotland’s bidding.

      If we do not bid them to act their hands are tied because they are not legally sovereign excepting as private individuals. Why the hell did you think Nicola insists upon getting a mandate from the people?

      Why else did Nicola start a petition, which petition incidentally has not yet reached the goal Nicola has set. Instead we get constant comments along the lines of, “Oh! Not another bloody petition/mandate. What the hell good does the FM and SNP imagine yet another petition/mandate will do – haven’t they got enough mandates already. They should do this/that/the other”.

      The whole point is that neither the FM, SG or SNP are legally sovereign and that means, when legally challenged, they can quote that whatever it happens to be is, “the sovereign will of the people of Scotland”.

      A sovereign’s word is law – so in Scotland, whatever the majority of the people of Scotland say they want cannot be legally argued with. Just think about that for a moment – why is there Supreme Court appeals going on ATM? The answer is plainly that the sovereign parliament, (under English law), claims Boris is illegally overruling the Royal sovereignty that is legally delegated to the, (actually non-existent), parliament of the Westminster Kingdom of England.

    82. dadsarmy says:

      DOnt let this case be your Dredd Scott moment. Stand up for truth, unity and diveristy, parl and democracy by dismissing this appeal not passing whims of men. Mother of parl shut down by father of lies. ABuse of power – unworthy of our trust. Manner corrosive of system and rep democracy. Enough is enough. Thats what truth speaking to power looks like. AND ONEILL IS DONE.

      Yes, that’s why he ran around the houses first, he’s kicking the SC up the arse where the sun don’t shine. Stand up and be counted, or forever be remembered for your shame, like the USSC back in 1857 (I googled it).

    83. ahundredthidiot says:

      about time we saw some Bruce on here!

      …..and you can get it right up you Giving Goose (11:08) – real barrel of fun you are……just bursting with poetry are you?….like Someled at 10:30, I was at the same concert…..just fantastic.

      Springsteen and his Team view your ticket purchase like a contract between you and him/them, it’s personal and they intend to give you your monies worth……..if only most Politicians would do the same.

    84. callmedave says:

      @RobertPeffers AKA: Arnie

      Your back! Just in time too. 🙂

      Please (although it’s none of our business really) can you give us the latest progress or lack of regards… dodgy eyes.

      Keep chipping in here, all the better for your input.

    85. Arthur Thomson says:

      Thanks Brian. Just as well I wasn’t charged with booking our holiday!!

    86. Robert Peffers says:

      ” … Liz g says: 18 September, 2019 at 12:25 pm:

      … Even leaving the EU ( if we voted that way) would be much more civilised and straightforward for Scotland if we weren’t shackled to the UK Union!”

      Which only goes to highlight that little matter of the Westminster, (aided by their pet media), brainwashing. That little notion of an, “rUnited Kingdom”, pushed into every susceptible persons brain.

      Legally Scotland isn’t leaving the United Kingdom – Scotland is legally ending, or dissolving, the United Kingdom and the Status Quo Ante is a return to the same two independent Kingdoms that existed before the union began.

      Where that leaves the two parts of the former Kingdom of Ireland will be none of Scotland’s business. They can sort it out between themselves. So upon independence Scotland may even claim back all the revenues stolen by Westminster over the past 300, ( and odd), years.

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 18 September, 2019 at 12:41 pm:

      ” … What we need to see soon is the SG capitalising on all this attention and being reasonable. They must put Indy on the front burner and giving up anti-Brexit ideas as a lost cause. The cause needs to be Indy, and soon.”

      Aye! galamcennalath, yon brainwashing is a strange thing.

      Now, it seems to have escaped your notice. until the United Kingdom union is dissolved, both the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England are the only two member kingdoms of the United Kingdom.

      Whish means until that dissolution then Scotland is exiting the European Union just as much as is the Kingdom of England. The SG has been trying to prevent Scotland being dragged out of the EU against Scotland’s will as part of the United Kingdom.

      That’s what comes of assuming England is the enemy when the real enemy is a faction of the Westminster Establishment.

    88. defo says:

      If you’re currently picking your jaw off of the floor, I’m guessing you just heard Naughtie & acolytes on R4 PM live from Embra.

      The whole kitchen sink was thrown in, but a particularly low blow from Naughtie at the denoument, saying Eck’s court case could influence Indyref2
      What a parcel of rogues in one man.

      Panic stations!

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 18 September, 2019 at 12:52 pm:

      ” … The UK constitution (whatever it is) is clearly not fit for the purpose of a modern European democracy. Perhaps that’s the intention of the “unwritten” constitution.”

      Ah! Cubby, the truth, so they say, is stranger than fiction and I’ve been telling Wingers the truth for some time now.

      The United Kingdom was constituted by the Treaty of Union 1706/7 and that treaty has documented, “Articles of Union”, each of which, in its own right constitutes the rules, (constitution), of the United Kingdom.

      Plainly the Treaty of Union is the written constitution of the United Kingdom and that is exactly what is being argued out at the United Kingdom’s Supreme Court over these few days. When it is all boiled down to the essentials we have English Law Vs Scottish law and both actually cannot actually win. Reason being that the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom states that neither Rule of Law can take precedence over the other but must always remain forever independent.

      Which is exactly why Westminster has always claimed the United Kingdom has no written constitution – it is because they have been breaking the Treaty of Union rules since day one of the union.

    90. dadsarmy says:

      Hahaha

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17911212.john-curtice-unionist-poll-reflects-rising-support-indyref2/

      Unionist poll backfires hilariously as Curtice confirms rise in indyref2 support

      Good old Poultice 🙂

    91. Robert Peffers says:

      @Artyhetty says: 18 September, 2019 at 2:15 pm:

      ” … Ps I do not have auto correct on this device…so no way could ALBA translate into Caeser. Jeez.”

      Just so you know, Artyhetty, it has nothing to do with auto-correct or predictive text. It is one of Rev Stu’s banned words.

      I’ll leave it to yourself to figure out what and why Stu banned it.

    92. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      18 September, 2019 at 5:06 pm

      ….It is not for either Nicola Sturgeon, Ian Blackford nor the entire Scottish legal system to do anything off their own bat. Their jobs are to respect and do the legally sovereign people of Scotland’s bidding.

      If we do not bid them to act their hands are tied because they are not legally sovereign excepting as private individuals. Why the hell did you think Nicola insists upon getting a mandate from the people?

      And what do think happened in 2016? The SNP was given a decisive and emphatic democratic mandate by the sovereign people of Scotland that the UK should remain in the EU, but chose to ignore the will of the people and arbitrarily pursue a forlorn soft Brexit option, conceding to the UK’s Brexit and Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation, but seeking access to the Single Market as the price of our Nation’s acquiescence.

      The SNP only seem to recognise Scotland’s Sovereignty when it suits them, and are pedestrian and demure in standing up for it.

      At last, we have Joanna Cherry at least beginning to pursue Court Action which, me must hope, will bind Westminster into recognising the potency and integrity of Scots Law and Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, but in the narrow context of an errant Prime Minister unlawfully proroguing the Westminster Parliament.

      Even if the UK’s Supreme Court was to uphold the Appeal in fullest detail, and undo the prorogation of Westminster, there will be much which need extrapolated into the context of national sovereignty, and any further Constitutional emancipation of our Nation will still need to be instigated and steered through similar due process. What are we waiting for???

      The best result for Scotland from the Supreme Court is what? That Westminster is obliged by it’s own Supreme Court to respect Scotland’s Constitutional and Legal integrity, unprorogue Westminster, and thereafter we seek wider International Recognition, especially for Europe, that Scotland’s Brexit is both unconstitutional and unlawful?

      We’ve had three years to pursue that issue on first principle, yet we only cite our Sovereign credentials to have a prorogation of Westminster declared unlawful? Well, they do say aim low, you’ll never be disappointed.

      Dear God. What will it take to end this pre-Brexit Purgatory and finally stand up for Scotland’s sovereign Constitution? Scotland voted by emphatic democratic majority against Brexit. We require no further mandate, no further referendum, no more prevarication. Scotland’s Brexit will be unlawful, and that gives Scotland a Brexit Kill Switch which should have been thrown three years ago.

    93. mogabee says:

      Aye, chills…

    94. Robert Peffers says:

      @manandboy says: 18 September, 2019 at 3:59 pm:

      ” … Ps. To be fair to Aidan O’Neill QC, that was 8 years ago.”

      To be fair to O’Neill I believe he is correct in that sovereignty, by its very nature always ultimately rests with the people. As can be seen in the French and Russian revolutions. It can also be seen in the American War of Independence. Sovereignty is taken by those who claim it and make their claim stick but if a regime becomes too cruel then the people will revolt and make it stick.

      None of which has much to do with legal sovereignty. In Scotland’s case Scotland was, as Scotland so often is, way ahead of the rest of the World but even then, in 1320, the people’s sovereignty was really a bit of a con.

      The Holy Roman See had excommunicated The Bruce for allegedly murdering the Red Comyn. Not because he allegedly murdered the guy but because he did so on concecrated ground. The Pope based his judgment upon what was the normal rule of law throughout Christendom. That was, “The Divine Right of Kings”.

      Under which Rule of Law the monarch owned everything including the monarch’s subjects and no one could trade with any Scot. The Declaration of Arbroath not only declared Scotland as an independent kingdom but to get Bruce and Scotland off the hook it claimed the monarch of Scotland was only Monarch of Scots and the people were sovereign and the king was Protector of the People’s sovereignty.

      It is assumed the declaration was backed up with some proof that this had long been Scots law or the Pope would not have believed it but he did and both Bruce and Scotland had the excommunication lifted.

      The point O’Neill was making was that there is a difference between the natural law that the people are naturally ultimately sovereign in spite of the law and what is Legal sovereignty where the law of the country upholds the right of the people to be legally sovereign. None the less if the people of Cambridgeshire revolted and took their sovereignty to the international court and won the case they would be both naturally ultimately sovereign but legally sovereign as well.

      We would have to read all of the circumstances and context of what O’Neill was getting at to understand just what he was getting at.

    95. dadsarmy says:

      @Breeks
      One appeal is by Miller against the English High Court decision that BoJo was OK to do what he did.

      The one most of us are talking about is the UK Gov appeal AGAINST the Court of Session Inner House ruling, that BoJo was a liar and the proroguing never happened because it incorrect. So we want that appeal to FAIL, not succeed.

    96. Breeks says:

      Freudian slip Dadsarmy. Kinda like the idea of an appeal to the ECJ…

    97. dadsarmy says:

      @Breeks
      The thing about this is some of us get lost in the legal niceties and yet speaking for myself, IANAL. What we should be looking at is putting it in normal terms, and it goes like this.

      Johnston is like “I can do what I like I’m more powerful than the King of England, so parliament is shut WHEN I want, and WHY I want.”.

      The Outer Court of the Court of Sessions is like, and I really like what some Winger said. “Hey man, this is waaay above my pay grade, shunt it upwards to where the buck stops”.

      The Inner Court is “hey, this IS our stuff, this guy lied and we’re not having it, parliament is hereby NOT prorogued, and it might be Scots law that allows us to say that, who cares, we’re the highest court in Scotland”.

      The London Court is like “Oh, he’s one of us, what he did is fine, just fine”.

      The UK Gov i.e. P1 schoolkid Johnson is like “Hey you sweaty Jocks, how dare you tell ME what to do, my court is bigger than yours”.

      Keen is like “Oh shit, I have to do what this arsehole says why did I take this shitty job? Anyway, the highest court of the Land of Scotland doesn’t know Scots Law. Why are you all laughing at me, I have to say this?”.

      And O’Neill is like: “Hey there UKSC, are you going to put us sweaty Jocks in our place and tell our Court it doesn’t exist, it’s stupid, there is no such thing as Scots Law, our Judges are vastly inferior to you lot, or are you going to HAVE SOME GUTS AND STAND UP FOR WHAT YOU KNOW IS RIGHT AND TO A TITPOT DICTATOR WHO CAN’T EVEN TIE HIS OWN SHOELACES YET?”.

      The UKSC is like: … remains to be seen

      HTH 🙂

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      Not sure if the ECJ is appropriate, but the ECHR might be – the UK will still be a signator after Brexit as that’s the Council of Europe wtih 47 members, even including Russia, not the EU. I think it was mentioned in submissions.

    99. Kangaroo says:

      dadsarmy @ 8:28

      Sums it up very nicely.

    100. Breeks says:


      dadsarmy says:
      18 September, 2019 at 8:28 pm

      The UKSC is like: … remains to be seen

      HTH

      Yeah, I think I have a grasp of it, confident in our arguments, but zero confidence in the Establishment’s Supreme Court.

      It’s a bit like our democracy. We all want to believe in this wonderful and honourable democracy, but we’ve no answer to the grotesque corruption of that democracy by the hostile interference and indoctrination that we have no power over.

      We have Scotland’s Laws and democracy compromised, we have UK laws and democracy rigged against us, and it feels like we need Europe and the European Court to deliver a disinterested and objective judgement… a healthy safeguard for Scotland which permanently evaporates the moment we’re out of Europe.

      If Brexit happens, I will feel such inconsolable despair, and deep anger at the complacency which did so little to prevent it.

    101. dadsarmy says:

      @Breeks
      If Brexit happens in its worst form it might nearly kill off a side product line, one which keeps me going through the winter, basically. Most sales are to the EU, or Canada for instance via CETA.

    102. Ian McCubbin says:

      Amen to Bruce, a great artist and poinient work

    103. Ghillie says:

      18th Sept. @ 7.06 pm

      Good to see you back Mr Peffers 🙂



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