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Wings Over Scotland

When you’re 74

Posted on August 18, 2019 by

Ah, the good old days of the positive case for the Union.

But oh no! Shock twist!

Who could ever have guessed?

Average male life expectancy in Scotland is 77, so enjoy those two years, lads. (And let’s not even start on the women.)

Better together, strong and stable, broad shoulders, best of both worlds, etc.

Maybe all the old folk can eat Union Jacks.

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    1. 18 08 19 14:56

      When you’re 74 | speymouth

    525 to “When you’re 74”

    1. HandandShrimp says:

      Why people trusted the old Brown Vow is beyond me. He was asking us to trust the Tories.

      The Daily Record are complicit in this deception and it I hope they are suitably shamed into action…assuming they actually care about ordinary working people.

      One thing, it will bloody hard for the Unionists to sell on the streets in another referendum. It is little wonder they are desperate to prevent one.

    2. John Muir says:

      Will the ration books be printed abroad?

    3. Sandy says:

      And where is the pension money then if it isn’t in the pension pot?

    4. Doug Bryce says:

      Brexit delivering everything that better together threatened independence would

      – out of EU
      – banks and business relocating
      – political uncertainty
      – permanently poorer

    5. All Of Us First says:

      Maybe the Scottish media will question Gordon now, on those pension claims? Or maybe not…

    6. dave says:

      I.D.S. ENOUGH SAID .

    7. George Gordon says:

      @Sandy There is no pension pot, but there is a contract to pay your pension based on National Insurance Contributions (NIC).

      NIC is a tax, which is no longer paid when you reach pension age, so when they raise the pension age (which arguably breaks the contract) the government gains because you’ll be paying NIC for longer.

      Given that older folk generally spend more of their money, apart from the wealthy ones, it is mad to remove spending power from a significant & growing part of the population.

    8. David McCann says:

      Dont worry folks as Gordy boy has his pension pot salted away as a parliamentary question from MP Pete Wishart revealed back in 2012.
      “over the last year Gordon Brown, despite poor participation levels in parliament, claimed £114,998.17 in addition to his parliamentary allowances, while Tony Blair – despite reputedly earning millions from business interests – claimed the maximum £115,000 as did Lady Thatcher and Sir John Major”.


    9. Dan says:

      Hmm, my thoughts will be made in a lyrical format.

      Gordon Brown, purveyor of pish
      Get ‘n the sea, wi’ aw the fish
      A’ day and night, he’s just a blight
      A’ways a frown wi’ Gordon Brown

      Every time, just like the last
      His pish spouting, leaves us aghast
      His yoon doom, fills folk wi’ gloom
      A’ways a frown wi’ Gordon Brown

      Gordon Brown, he’s just an arse
      Through the ages, his work’s been a farce
      Tae far away, I wish he wud gae
      A’ways a frown with Gordon Brown…

    10. Merkin Scot says:

      Boris talks about ("Tractor" - Ed)s and collaborators.
      Who exactly does he mean?
      The Brunosaurus fits the bill exactly.

    11. ahundredthidiot says:

      IDS – enemy of the People

      Gordon Brown – enemy of Scotland

    12. Muscleguy says:

      Gordon is simply worried that since rUK will be a 3rd country it will no longer be required to pay annual increments to his unobtainium plated pension if we are independent in Europe.

    13. Den Cairns says:

      Its just as well we have a limited life expectancy because I don’t know how much of this pish I can take.

    14. Bob Mack says:

      You can see the day coming when they will be able to sell your house or raid your bank account to take contributions to your pension that you would have been due had you not died prematurely before retirement age.

      Outrageous—yes. But possible in today’s political climate.
      Every penny will count.

    15. Thomas Valentine says:

      If you work another 10 years you probably will never make it to 75.

    16. msean says:

      This is what happens when politicians don’t get quizzed(and I don’t mean by the press,I mean by actual people)when they spout forth.

      When people decide to back unquestioned politicians,they should not be surprised when they get done over.Former PM Brown was helped by the state broadcaster to vow for Britain for ages, like Fidel Castro, without being questioned pre indyref one.Unionists fell for it.

      Job done,eh?

    17. Doug says:

      Brown is a decrepit tractor rusting away in the corner of a slurried field forever England.

    18. Dan says:

      Stop fretting over what to cram into your two year retirement plans, or anxiously concerning yourself with where you will find enough sustenance and medicine to sustain life till you reach retirement age.
      Because hurrah, finally we have some important positive news for good old Blighty…(even if he does have a foreign sounding name).

      British rider ‘breaks world record for fastest headstand on a motorbike’

      A British daredevil has performed a handstand on a motorbike while travelling at 76 miles per hour.

      Attempting to set a world record for the fastest ever headstand on a motorcycle, Marco George, 30, from Fleet, in Hamsphire, clocked a speed of 76.1764mph at the Straightliners World’s Fastest Wheelie Competition at the Elvington airfield in North Yorkshire on Saturday.

    19. Effijy says:

      I’d like to apologise for my language Brown is a corrupt lying bastard.
      Our pensions are guaranteed by Westminster as iv been giving them
      My contributions for the lady 50 years.

      He knew he was lying in 2014 and he knows he is lying now..

      You can’t name one European country without pensions and the UK ‘s is
      One of the worst in buying power.

      Brown who sold our gold reserves just before it doubled in value,
      Brown who signed up to pay over £300 Billion got £50 Billion of PFI
      Buildings, Brown who vilified pensioner Gillian Duffy forget his mic was on,
      Brownn who was in charge of regulating banks when they went off Casino banking,
      Brown the Millionaire who takes £10k per week expenses from his charity..

      He should be talking to use from behind iron bars !

    20. Terry callachan says:

      Tories don’t like tax they would like to end taxation altogether and national insurance too so that we can all go private for everything, pensions , social security benefits ,education , healthcare ,roads ,
      Council services the lot.

      I worked for pensions service a long time , the government calculates how much it needs to cover pension costs three decades ahead .
      I’m sure there are a few big USA companies waiting in the wings to take over pension provision and the other services I’ve mentioned should privatisation be turned on full.

      Thatchers ideas live on

      It’s great not paying for services more cash in hand , until you need something, it’s like all those people who decided not to pay into their works pension scheme, sure they were better off when they were younger but I see so many of them who have reached sixty and could have retired or taken partial retirement if they had continued paying into their works pension fund but they didn’t so they are still working and will continue to do so at least until they reach state pension age.

      Gordon brown as an MP has the best works pension in the UK most of us get a pension from our work equal to one eightieth of our yearly salary for each year we worked

      Some of us in the better pension funds get one sixtieth for each year worked

      MPs get one fortieth yes that’s right
      No wonder so many MP,s want to be MP,s all their life
      An MP for forty years gets forty fortieths of his salary as a pension
      So that’s his whole yearly salary , yes that’s right, they retire and continue to get the full salary they were on when working, as a pension, in fact they probably come out with more net pay because they will not be paying contributions to the pension fund any longer.

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sandy says: 18 August, 2019 at 2:33 pm:

      ” … And where is the pension money then if it isn’t in the pension pot?”

      Ah! Now here’s the thing, Sandy – there has never been a pensions pot, not ever and no chance of there ever being one under Westminster rule by any Westminster Establishment party.

      Instead of blowing all that, “United Kingdom Extra-Regio”, oil and gas revenue on holes under London for everything from tube trains to sewerage and High Speed railways to get folks out of London faster or flood prevention for London while other places are getting regularly flooded and most of all bailing out banks that were never flooded in the first place, they could have built up a scheme like they have in Norway and gave everyone a far better pension and had more than a wee bit left over for the future and for much better infrastructure.

    22. mogabee says:

      Aye, best just forgetting about pensions altogether. The UK has lots of other little snippets of far right proposals for our imposition…Ask Liz Truss et al

      Just you wait and see!

    23. Al-Stuart says:

      Stuart Campbell, you just reptured my spleen causing me to LoL ?????.

      Please, please, please can you get T shirts, flags and banners with that brilliant penultimate phrase you just coined…

      Maybe all the old folk can eat Union Jacks.

      ? ???????

      ????? = ???

      Meanwhile, Stu., you are spot on to include in your newspaper clipping that Iain Duncan Smith, Minister for Manslaughter has risen from the political dead again to kill off more disabled and sick folk….

    24. Street Andrew says:

      There may be shortages of some foodstuffs, but while Gordon Brown is alive there’ll be no shortage of pork pies.

    25. Clootie says:


      Gordon Brown took the unheard of step of announcing he was planning to sell a large section of the gold reserves. Unsurprisingly the price dropped dramatically and he completed the sale. The price then recovered.

      Market manipulation but not a word said?

    26. galamcennalath says:

      And do we honestly believe the Leave, NO, and Tory voters will stand back and do without their medicines, food, and fuel? Will those who got Scotland into this f’king mess do the decent thing and let others access to limited resources first? Will they do a ‘Captain Oats’ and wander into the hills having said ‘I may be gone some time’?

      No they won’t! They will elbow their ways to the head of the queue. They will make the poor and vulnerable do without. That’s the sort of assholes who have let Scotland down.

      {angry foot stomp}

    27. Juteman says:

      I can just see a 75 year old scaffolder carrying heavy weights over tenement roofs!

    28. Capella says:

      Watched an excellent Amazon original film. “Peterloo” It is beautifully filmed and well written. Tells the story of the government troops attacking a huge crowd in St Peters Field square in Manchester. Modest demands met with brutality. Story of “Britain”.

    29. Effel says:

      The basic fact about state pensions that it is vital to get is, state pensions are benefits. I’m sorry if anyone doesn’t like that, and every time I say it I get pelters from some, but that is legally what they are. Therefore: there is no pot, and like every other benefit SPs are paid from current NI contributions. Current workers pay the pensions of older ppl, they will get theirs paid for in time by younger ppl. NI/SPs have ALWAYS worked this way. Also, legally, you will find that the government is entitled to change benefit rules with notice. So legally challenging this sort of thing is a waste of time. Further, any talk about guarantees is always subject to this legal entitlement of govt to change rules. The good news is that paying NI contribs buys you qualifying years for SPs, among other things, so you ARE guaranteed that if you fulfil CURRENT conditions you will get a SP? But that word current is the crux of the whole thing. Rules can change and nobody can hold the govt to a previous set of rules as long as sufficient notice of the change has been given. That’s why they announced equalisation of women’s pension ages in 1993, and why they’re floating this now. Its all carefully planned so that if/when it becomes policy, it’ll be legal.

    30. North chiel says:

      Increasing the pension age to 75 is only the initial plan .Thereafter stage 2 will be “ means testing” of “ the state” pension, and everybody “ in work” will eventually be means tested , hence the reason for the introduction of “ work placed pensions” . ( Better together? Aye right!)

    31. John H. says:

      My wife and I are pensioners. We are both members of the SNP, and we both voted for independence in 2014. Should we eat Union Jacks as well?

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      Watched an excellent Amazon original film. “Peterloo”

      I agree. Very good.

      A recent Who Do You Think You Are? covered similar events in Wales. Featured Jack and Michael Whitehall, who I had never seen nor heard of. Very interesting. One of their ancestors was a total villain (Tory). Featured similar events ending in a major massacre.

    33. PRJ says:

      The UK relies on a low wage economy to survive. Without the pool of EU citizens there is a risk of wage inflation. One way to increase working population and keep wages low is to increase the workforce, The route that is now being used is to increase retirement age creating a large pool of workers that are unfit for there original job, but have to continue working in the low payed economy to survive. The government is will be winning on both fronts, delayed pension payout and a larger low payed workforce.

    34. The human body is not made for manual labour after 60 years just look at all the new joints people are getting now. As someone who received 2 new knee joints 9 years ago, they are nowhere near the performance of the originals, you can’t kneel, your balance is not very good, and if you fall you have a hell of a job getting up without help. Not much use for doing any manual work which applies to over 60% of jobs.

    35. Chris Kilby says:

      How now Brown Vow…?

    36. dakk says:

      I’m sure the UK state will ensure their client vote public sector workers(including Scotland’s) will still get their generous occupational pensions at 65

      They’re not daft. It will be the small business workers and owners who will continue to be worked to death to pay for their public sector largesse.

    37. Clootie says:

      I had thought that as society advanced the retirement age would have fallen. How stupid was I thinking that full employment and high pensions would have been a desired future.

    38. kapelmeister says:

      Pensions at 75 and paying for Prince Andrew to be on the civil list.

      The benefits of the union.

    39. Al-Stuart says:

      John H.,

      The “Old Folk Eating Union Jacks” was NOT aimed at decent folk of a certain age who vote for Scotland to become Indpendent.

      It is a tongue-in-cheek reference to all the old Yoons who vote NO even if it means they will end up destitute.

    40. defo says:

      Anyway John H, it’s Saltires for us. Same nutritional value, but much less bitter. 🙂

    41. Artyhetty says:

      The Tory/red Tory early retirees won’t give a hoot!
      Who cares if your working class people living in the schemes drop deid before they can cash in on that amazing state pension.

      It’s not just pulling up the ladder after them is it, it’s knocking down the whole house.

      So Scotland, look forward to your kids and grandkids having to leave in their droves again, if they can that is. Shame if they can’t, still there’s always the thuggery army for a job, the Britnats will need them to counter the angry mobs. Beating up your own sisters and brothers for protesting, great eh.

      Yep, Gordy Brown has a heck of a lot to answer for he really does.

    42. ALANM says:

      It’s even worse than you think Stu. When it comes to pensions, the UK Treasury has correctly conceded that it has an obligation to pay Scottish pensioners on the basis of the contributions they’ve made during their working lives. However, it’s worth noting that Westminster retains the power to decide who gets what and when.

      Presumably that situation would pertain even after independence has been achieved leaving state pensions policy in Scotland under the control of a foreign government.

    43. I detest that bastard Broon.

    44. wullie says:

      And any food that has to be transported through England to Scotland will arrive completely intact. No No No it won’t be diverted to keep the English happy. aye fn right. Get ready Scottish no voting pensioners nae grub nae drugs. Broon didnae tell ye that eh eh.

    45. Al-Stuart says:

      In just 9 years and 9 months the murdering reptile, Iain Duncan Smith will reach the age of 75.

      Even though his dodgy expenses and propensity to charge the taxpayer to buy his £35 breakfasts and £48 pairs of underwear will mean he is financially secure as a 75 year old OAP, the personal liability for civil/criminal malfeasance, plus moral moral responsibility and lethal karmic position will mean he ain’t in for a good time.

      I am looking forward to seeing creepy IDS decompose whilst alive, before our eyes.

      The reason? Iain Duncan Smith has killed hundreds of people with disabilities.

    46. PictAtRandom says:

      Buy gold. Scotland already has a small goldmine in Argyll and it could have other viable sources in Ayrshire, Sutherland and Aberdeenshire if the price rises. (A kind of compensation for “black gold” having fewer acceptable uses.) So we could become a “gold province” in financial parlance at the same time as achieving sovereign national status.

      Some good news (even for sparring partners like liz g 🙂

      P.S. **** Gordon Clown and his handling of such matters. (Just to show that I’m a super-intelligent swearie type.)

    47. Dr Jim says:

      That’s all scaremongering about only 2 year pensions

      They’ll kill us when we’re 75 so we don’t collect anything

      Tomorrows front pages: *Unionists welcome early death* *Sturgeon promises Utopia* where people will stay alive *Pie in the sky* politics from Scotch separatist Sturgeon

      Let’s all die together in the glorious Union, you know you want to, view your overhead outside screens to learn more from our esteemed UK leader President Boris Blumff but remember to be home by 9pm curfew for family time

      All heil the Union

    48. twathater says:

      If you think back you may remember the tolies had a manifesto that was going to FORCE the sale of people’s properties to pay for their social care , the blue rinse brigade ( I’m 68 ) tolies went batshit when this was announced alongside the youngsters who were panicked that their inheritance was going to be lost , the manifesto was dropped , but guess what the blue rinse brigade still voted tolie .

      Because they don’t give a fuck what the tolies of either colour do to the unemployed , disabled or the poor as long as THEIR riches are not attacked

      More AMMUNITION for indy Scotland to capitalise on

      FFS Stuart hurry up and get THE PARTY STARTED

    49. Robert Kerr says:

      I take it that since the Empire is no more there is a shortage of Empire Biscuits,

    50. Welsh Sion says:

      Capella says: @ 4.08 pm

      galamcennalath says: @ 4.29 pm


      I’m surprised neither of you knew about ‘the Newport Rising’. Here’s a little more to whet you’re appetite – 180 years on.

      Maybe it’s something to do with that Anglocentric history we’ve all be fed at some stage in our lives …

    51. Weechid says:

      Capella says:
      18 August, 2019 at 4:08 pm

      “Watched an excellent Amazon original film. “Peterloo” It is beautifully filmed and well written. Tells the story of the government troops attacking a huge crowd in St Peters Field square in Manchester. Modest demands met with brutality. Story of “Britain”.”
      My OH watched this. He was educated in England and knew nothing about it. I learned about it in O level history. However I wasn’t taught about the Scottish Insurrection of 1820 – and I was educated in Scotland.

    52. Elmac says:

      Almost 30 years ago Robert Maxwell died in questionable circumstances. He was about to face the music for having looted £460 million from the Mirror Group pension fund, one of the biggest frauds in history. There is however a much larger fraud which has been perpetrated by successive Westminster governments on the working public of the UK who have been forced to contribute to a state retirement pension throughout their working lives only to find that the cupboard is bare. None of the funds paid by them were ring fenced or invested for their future benefit. Moreover the goalposts were moved in mid contract in terms of how their pension was to be calculated and when it should start, clear breaches of contract with no recourse.

      Any other pension provider who acted in this fashion would long since have been bankrupted, jailed and possibly immersed in water. When can we expect the same of Westminster politicians?

    53. Dan says:

      @Lenny re. flags

      My bike has crap under seat storage and I couldn’t fit a wee water bottle in there. I prefer to ride light so didn’t take a rucksack in the event it would get a soaking on the way up.
      Result was a pretty dehydrated Dan. After the march had finished we were speaking to Ruth Watson of Keep Scotland the Brand. I excused myself momentarily to nip into RS McColls to buy a some milk to quaff, only to find the bottles adorned with Union Jackass Flags! Arse! Being a stickler for upholding my BDS standards I couldnae well buy that and rejoin the conversation with her.
      Fortunately there were choccy milk options sans l’apron de bouchère.

      Seeing you own a TRX this may be relevant. My TDM had a pronounced roll on throttle judder. It is a common complaint and internet is full of fixes such as throttle potentiometer and mixture mapping tweaks. Well I have completely cured the issue by slackening off the drive chain a bit. Reckon the 270deg crank creates power pulses that can be transmitted and felt through a drive chain that doesn’t have quite enough slack to absorb them.
      Bike is so much nicer to ride now.

    54. Lenny Hartley says:

      Hi Dan Aint been on the TRX for a while, scooting aboot on a 72 Honda 350 four and hopefully have a 80’s Yam Tzr250 on road before end of summer.
      Unfortunately down in Arran we dont have Choice, its Co-Op only in the Supermarket line although there are Independent shops around eight miles away its generally more niche products they sell, That leaves you with the choice between manufacturers in the Co-Op but most these days have a jack, but the good news is that I am losing weight.

    55. Aikenheed says:

      J Kerr Empire biscuits.
      I believe they were once called German Biscuits but were renamed at the outbreak of WW1 in much the same way as the Saxe coburg Gothas became Windsor.
      We could re re name them Independence Biscuits!

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      Piss-poor governance is definitely an ethically moral trigger for a nation to seek self-determination from a dysfunctional political union. Efforts to suppress such rational action, aimed at self-preservation, is simply authoritarian nationalism. Or fascism for short.

      So here I am, btl on WOS, allegedly helping to articulate the voice of the alt-right. 🙂

      The need for a second referendum

      ….In political philosophy, this is known as the ‘epistemic problem of democracy’. Simply put, political legitimacy is not only dependent on a decision getting support by the majority. In addition, the epistemic theory of democracy points to the need for the decisions to also be in some sense “true” and “right”. Decisions need to be “true” in the sense that they are not based on what is known to be factually wrong….

    57. He’s a son of the manse.
      Of course he gets wall to wall coverage when he opens his mouth a spouts out this pish.
      How does he make a living these days?
      Is it the public interest to know who is shoving brown envelopes into his pudgy fists?
      England will riot by the end of September.
      And this walking Lie churns out the same old North British crap.

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for folk who might be like the sound of epistemic justice or the epistemic theory of democracy.

      Representation, Epistemic Democracy, and Political Parties in John Stuart Mill and José de Alencar

    59. Dan says:

      Lenny, can you and your like-minded community not get a Heilan Coo or three on the go. Think globally, act locally. Meat, milk and toffee, what’s not to like.

      I’m just waiting on the fallout to when the Leavers find out their olive oil supply has run oot. I can’t see them being satisfied dressing their salads with the locally sourced alternative that is melted fatberg.

      There is the potential for this UK leaving EU malarky to really kick off down south, like proper serious trouble, then the people of Scotland might be screaming for Indy.
      Guess this could actually be the waiting tactic we’ve seen play out by a seemingly somewhat lacklustre towards Indy SNP.
      The genie is well and truly oot the bottle down south now. It’s the almost inevitable end result of using divide and rule to retain power for so long. Westminster now trying to recruit Cat Herders.

    60. Bobp says:

      Tory think tank now says state pension age should be raised to 75 by 2035. Are all you ‘dont knows’ yes yet.

    61. CameronB Brodie says:

      There’s an argument that there’s little difference between those who support Scottish indepencence and those who support the full-English Brexit. So here’s one that might help explain that difference.

      Mobilising popular sovereignty in order to constitute a fairer and more sustainable political economy, is not the same as mobilizing popular sovereignty through illiberal constitutional majoritarianism, and the subsequent empowerment of the far-right (see the full-English Brexit).

      Popular Sovereignty, Democracy, and the Constituent Power


      The concept of sovereignty is today seriously challenged. Contemporary critics of sovereignty have focused on its hierarchical, unitary, discretionary, and arbitrary attributes. Hence, sovereign power is treated as anachronistic and dangerous, the cause of the many wrongs that have marked modern politics. This paper seeks to defend the notion and practice of sovereignty as inherently democratic.

      The argument begins with and relies on the historical observation that the idea of sovereignty as supreme command corresponds to merely one definition among several to be proposed and acted on in the long history of this term. An alternative definition can be traced to the writings of several modern political and constitutional thinkers, for whom sovereignty was understood not as the ultimate coercive power of command but instead as the power to found, to posit, to constitute, that is, as a constituting power. It is this alternative conceptualization of the sovereign as constituent power that this article excavates and recovers as a more attractive and relevant form of popular sovereignty, more attuned to the emancipatory and egalitarian promises of a normative theory of democracy.

    62. David Gray says:

      Most of Scotland’s fuel is supplied from Grangemouth. Could somebody tell me what borders it crosses?

    63. John Jones says:

      An Ode tae Broon

      Disney missed his chance
      To make a great cartoon
      Cause he didn’t know about
      Our own old Gordy Broon

      He does a shimmy shuffle
      And a graet hand jive
      If you don’t look too closely
      You’d swear he was alive

      Always on the look out
      For a chance to preach
      It’s all about our Indy
      It is out of reach

      We need our English neighbours
      To make our life worthwhile
      It’s them who have to keep us
      And nought to do will oil

      He was the worlds savior
      During the banking crash
      Sold us down the river
      We’re left with all the trash

      We’ve learned a sorry lesson
      From the last time round
      Don’t listen to the has beens
      Your heart is what is sound

    64. John Jones says:

      By the way how is it, that as all the fuel is made here we’ll have delays at the border?

    65. Capella says:

      Item number 3 on the manifesto of the new Indy Party – Scottish Pensions to equal the best in Europe. International best practice – to coin a phrase.

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m sure what you meant was, “Scottish Pensions to equal the best in Europe” tops independent Scotland’s political debate. What will the newly empowered parties deliver, given Scotland’s limitless potential? 😉

    67. robertknight says:

      Can’t wait to see the old Gogs Broon trundled out the dessication cupboard to go peddling his ‘Yoon’ brand Snake Oil yet again. Only gig he’s likely to get, seeing as how Madam Tussaud’s got hold of the version of him with all the charisma still in place.

    68. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dan, sadly Arran is going to be down 250 dairy Cows in the next couple of months due to the incompetence and shortsightness of First Milk who have recently shut the Award Winning Torrylinn Creamery maker of the World Championship winning “Real” Isle of Arran Dunlop Cheese.
      Total disgrace do the First Milk Wankers who are that incompetant that they could not Market the best cheddar in the World that when WTO trading rules come into effect on Nov 1st that tariffs on imported cheese will be 44%. Really feel for The two farm’s who’s lifes work has been destroyed by the First Milk fuckwits. Other Island businesses will be effected as well including the award winning Blue Cheese Maker and the delicious Isle of Arran Ice Cream. Over the last couple of weeks, I have been showing groups of Chinese kids round the village, they are on a tour of the UK to see what Universities they want to go to when the times come and in Scotland they spend a day in Edinburgh and Glasgow and a day on Arran where volunteers demo the Heavy Events at the Island Games to them. This day on Arran became so popular that up to sixty a day were coming so we split them into two groups and I was asked to give one group a wee tour whilst the other was getting the Games Demo, Anyways At the end of the tour i take them to the Arran Ice Cream shop and they tell me its the best Ice Cream they have ever tasted. There is a reason for that its made from Arran Milk , just hope they can find a way to keep a milk herd on the Island.

    69. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      twathater at 5.38

      It’s “toalies”, twathater.

    70. Dan says:

      Lenny, that is sad to hear. No community buy out options or government initiative to step in?
      That’s local jobs going then, so more difficult for ex-workers to stay in the area, so effectively more modern day clearances breaking down local communities. Same as here in my rural area.
      FFS. One has to wonder if there will be anything left if and when we finally get Indy.

      Stu apparently likes his milk and ice cream. Maybe a new Indy Party should look to have manifesto commitments to try to nationalise the coo juice industry! Makes environmental sense too to have pretty much an essential commodity produced on the island to save transport and carbon cost to shift it from a centralised point on the mainland.
      Hoover up Green leaning voters that have no real home now due to Self ID nonsense.

      Here’s a link to an OT post where I mention and link to the trailer for the film In Our Hands which is worth a watch. It actually has some content relating to dairy farming and how a small independent company is attempting to buck the trend against big corporate practices.

    71. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Whenever “pensions” come up I point out that an independent Scotoand will initially mofe tomatch match the Irish pension at £80 a week more than the UK one and then plan to match Scandinavian ones.That usually sets them back.

      They control Gordon Brown. They’ve got stuff on him. Or so I have been told by some folk who worked with him.

    72. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Whenever “pensions” come up I point out that an independent Scotland will initially move to match the Irish pension at £80 a week more than the UK one and then plan to match Scandinavian ones.That usually sets them back.

      They control Gordon Brown. They’ve got stuff on him. Or so I have been told by some folk who worked with him.

    73. Tony Hay says:

      I’ve said it on more than one occasion that pension provision could be a more than useful tool in getting a lot more of our senior citizens to vote Yes.
      Matching ROI pension rate right away would be helpful plus bringing the retiral age back to 65…..the unionist c##ts wont know what hit them. The funding of this MUST be a priority to guarantee our independence.

    74. Al-Stuart says:

      Been reading a bit of doom on this thread, I don’t want to go Reverend I.M.Jolly here, but a colleague in the British Army (colonel) says that the armed services NO LONGER have the personnel to man the barricades at Stormont or Falls Road., etc,, if Northern Ireland kicks off or the Scots get sweaty with barricades around Holyrood or the Labour Taffies finally grow some backbone and fight their corner to defend the Cardiff Senedd .

      The colonel said it wasn’t just the British Army badly under compliment, the Royal Navy cannot even muster two working frigates to protect an oil tanker in the Straits of Hormuz. As for a Royal Air Force? The old boy dryly quipped, they do still have a working Lancaster + Spitfire + Hurricane that can be brought out for HM Queen Elizabeth II on special occasions.

      A supreme irony that when Boris needs to protect his demagoguery his Tory predecessors have utterly bfukced up all the armed services.

      Even the police in England and Wales are down by 20,000 and Boris Pfeffel Bumfluff is far too late to try and train up 20,000 new cops to rescue him from the baying mob of democratic citizens. Remember the graphic pictures of Saddam Hussein and Muhammad Gaddafi when their soldiers could, nor would protect them anymore.

      My colonel colleague, (a lifelong Tory) finished with the quip: “Johnson deserves all the troubles and more at his door and my professional soldiers frankly want nothing to do with political clowns of that man’s ilk”

      Damned by your own side.

      Well I.M. Jolly indeed Rev 🙂

    75. Hamish100 says:

      David– you are a bit of a tease!

    76. wullie says:

      Eh, fuel and borders.You uppity jocks don’t think for one minute that the fuel produced at Grangemouth is for you lot. There will be cues at the border, the Scottish border, the number of vehicles required to ship it down to England will be enormous causing congestion on our shitty roads to Engerland.

    77. Terry callachan says:

      To said state pensions are benefits, sorry but you are wrong.

      State pension is contributory and paid to those of govt retired age

      Benefits are a range of working age , disability and I’ll health payments with no automatic entitlement

    78. Effel says:

      Elmac – there’s a very good reason, which is that state pensions are BENEFITS, not pensions. I can’t stress this enough. They aren’t pensions, they aren’t a savings scheme, your NI contributions are NOT saved and never were. It’s always operated like this. Many people don’t want to hear this, but until everyone understands that SPs are a benefit, they won’t be looking at the true situation. SPS behave exactly like any other contributory benefit and completely unlike a private pension.

    79. Golfnut says:

      @ Alanm.

      Pensions, No it won’t.
      Scottish pensions are paid from Scottish taxation. Yes the money comes from Westminster along with the rest of the pocket money, but all of it originates from Scotland. So Scottish pension policy won’t be controlled or influenced by Westminster.
      However Scottish Pensions do remain a liability for Westminster and I expect that liability would become part of the negotiated settlement between Scotland and England.
      Our share of a non existent debt, share of assets( home and overseas), Trident and military assets will all go into the melting pot.

      Scotland’s pensions are safe, how quickly they rise to European standards will I hope be a priority for Holyrood.

    80. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve talked to a number of people in the past couple of weeks (a couple of them at the Aberdeen rally yesterday) and they all reckoned that the following proposal would move a substantial number of older voters from abstain/NO to YES.

      When the indyref2 campaign starting gun is “officially” fired, the SNP wouldn’t go far wrong in advocating this.

      In the event of a YES vote, if the SNP form the government for the first 5(?) year term of the independent parliament, they will raise the state retirement pension to the European average by the end of that parliament and reduce the retirement age to 65 (or lower?).

      Just look at these figures from the link below:-


      Their pensions are earnings related with a maximum state pension of £26,630, an average salary of £23,491, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.


      Their pensions are earnings related with a maximum state pension of £26,366, an average salary of £29,366, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.


      Their pensions are earnings related with a maximum state pension of £25,155, an average salary of £37,014, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.


      Their pensions are earnings related with a maximum state pension of £15,811, an average salary of £29,817, with state pension age for both men and women at 60.


      Their pensions are not earnings related with a maximum state pension of £11,381, an average salary of £45,661, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.


      Their pensions are not earnings related with a maximum state pension of £10,981, an average salary of £35,627, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.


      Their pensions are not earnings related with a maximum state pension of £10,415, an average salary of £41,803, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.

      United Kingdom

      Their pensions are not earnings related with a maximum state pension of £7,488, an average salary of £31,413, with state pension age for men is 65 and women at 62.


      Their pensions are earnings related with a maximum state pension of £3,756, an average salary of £7,421, with state pension age for both men and women at 65.

      From these figures, what raises my eyebrow is the figures for average salary and state pension. Compare the UK with Spain.

      maximum state pension of £26,630
      average salary of £23,491

      maximum state pension of £7,488
      average salary of £31,413

      How is the UK ‘managing’ to mismanage the economy to such an extent that Spain is streets ahead in pension provision?

      See the full story here, including caveats and explanations.

      BTW: I’m only linking to stuff to stimulate discussion. I’m no economist.

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thomas Valentine says: 18 August, 2019 at 3:09 pm:

      ” … If you work another 10 years you probably will never make it to 75.”

      Wee true story, Thomas.

      I spent most of my working life in Rosyth Dockyard and for most of those years the Dockyard bus terminal was situated well above the yard’s ground level. Workers had to clock out from their place of work all over the yard and the furthest away time clocks were a considerable distance from the main gates.

      When the workers arrived at the main gate there was a stairway to a footbridge over the main Dockyard entrance road and then a steep stairway up to the level of the bus terminal. These stairs were known as, “The Dockyard Pensions saver”.

      This was due to the regular annual number of heart attack and stroke victims who either died or were invalided out after suffering heart attacks or strokes on those stairs.

      As Trade Unionist reps and stewards we fought for many years to have the large car park area right next to the yard gates used as the bus terminal. After many years we got our suggestion acted upon. The death & heart attack/stroke figures vanished.

      I really have no idea of how many elderly workers deaths and disabilities those stairs accounted for but it wasn’t a few.

      Must have saved the MOD a fortune in pensions over the decades the yard was open. That’s the MOD for you – totally heartless. It wasn’t the local management you understand but some jumped up MOD Civil Servant for in the South that opposed the car park to bus terminal idea.

    82. twathater says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      18 August, 2019 at 8:05 pm

      twathater at 5.38

      It’s “toalies”, twathater.
      Glasgow spelling DMH still no matter the spelling the MEANING is still the same they’re shit

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @mogabee says: 18 August, 2019 at 3:35 pm:

      ” … Aye, best just forgetting about pensions altogether. The UK has lots of other little snippets of far right proposals for our imposition…Ask Liz Truss et al
      Just you wait and see!”

      Why pick upon Liz Truss, mogabee? Have you forgotten that the union man responsible for the negotiations with Glasgow Council that allowed the council away with paying female staff less than males doing similar work was none other than Current Labour in Scotland Leader, Richard, bobby, Leonard.

      It was also Labour councils that landed council taxpayers throughout Scotland with massive PFI scheme facilities they will still be paying of the interest on for many years yet to come.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @John H. says: 18 August, 2019 at 4:29 pm:

      ” … My wife and I are pensioners. We are both members of the SNP, and we both voted for independence in 2014. Should we eat Union Jacks as well?”.

      Now before I comment in reply, John, be aware that I am not only a pensioner but I am also disabled. Thing is I did without while employed, (and I never had a days unemployment in my life), but I paid for a pension for when I would retire and so did not rely upon the government pension scheme.

      Now what I was about to comment, and it isn’t a joke, is that both you and your wife may, if Boris and the Tories get their way, have little choice of what you eat post Brexit. However, due to the great outbreak of UJ on shop sold foods, there certainly is no shortage of spare Bucher’s Aprons to keep OAPs going.

    85. Craig P says:

      HandandShrimp – people trusted Brown because they wanted to. They needed validation for their views. The fact he lied to their faces didn’t matter.

    86. As someone said this is euthanasia,

      bit like the Liverpool Care Package where NHS hospitals were given financial incentives to remove medication and accelerate a human beings death,

      we are nothing but cattle to the Oxbridge establishment that rule every aspect of UK government.

    87. Dorothy Devine says:

      Jeezo! Now Glasgow has the worst HIV record , all these homeless addicts and now some nice folk are testing them and within a couple of minutes can give the results..

      Why did I watch BBBC news? Pure accident , I came in while another was watching , that’s the only reason.

    88. dakk says:

      Hamish100 says:
      18 August, 2019 at 8:38 pm
      David– you are a bit of a tease!

      It used to receive a weekly blow dry in a salon doon the bottom end of GW Rd,so it did.

      For what it’s worth.

    89. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you allow government to force folk to work until they drop or deny pensioners dignity in their final years, it means you’ve missed the point of what it is to be human.

      Epistemic Contribution as a Central Human Capability

      When thinking about the intersections of epistemology, ethics, and political life, it is often revealing to start with the negative, with how ideals tend to fail; and it is a good idea to be explicit about this failure-first methodological approach. Whether one hopes ultimately for an ideal theory, or whether one is committed to exploring the non-ideal on a permanent basis, it can be instructive to begin with a picture of how things will tend, under the relevant social-historical circumstances, to go wrong.

      If one is interested in justice, then it is helpful to look first at forms of injustice; if one is interested in equality, to look first at forms of inequality. This will be so inasmuch as justice and equality are best conceived as sustained under tension – like a suspension bridge, which stays up (if it does) in virtue of its ability to perpetually counteract certain prevailing physical forces and processes, such as gravity, corrosion, expansion and contraction… In short, if you want to know what the positive social situation looks like, then it is a good idea to analyse what counter-pressures the structure needs persistently to exert in order to stave off collapse into the negative.

      This negative conceptualisation of the philosophical task finds some precedence in virtue theory, for virtues in general are, as Philippa Foot once suggested (Foot 2002, sect. II), ‘corrective’ – they are dispositions of resistance against natural temptations towards egotism, selfishness, and other kinds of vice. In short, like individual virtues, the names of systemic virtues such as ‘equality’ and ‘justice’ are success terms, so that if a society is achieving justice or equality in some region of the social body, then that is because pro tem it is successfully correcting for endemic pressures for collapse into injustice and inequality.

      ‘Endemic’ pressures will count as such insofar as they derive from basic features of human nature operating in a social setting of competition for resources. This means that although there can of course be serviceable definitions of equality or justice that make no reference to their typical modes of failure, I would suggest that a full conception of the nature of these precarious success states requires us to understand what sorts of pressures are being staved off. Moreover, for some kinds of justice their very existence may not come to light, even as a coherent idea, until you look first at typical cases of failure. I have argued elsewhere that this is so of epistemic injustice: without attention to epistemic injustice, the very existence of something called ‘epistemic justice’ would remain obscured.i

      Finally I would underline that this case in favour of adopting a failure-first methodology is not the same as a plea for non-ideal theory as contrasted with ideal theory. That is a different distinction. The whole idea of attending to forms of failure before going on to look at models of success applies equally whether one is philosophising with a view to arriving at a full conception of a purported ideal society, or whether one is sceptical about the value of that sort of project and so intends to stay strictly within the bounds of non-ideal scenarios.

      My bolder claim is rather that it is regardless good method to start with realistically construed tendencies to failure and dysfunction – perhaps especially if you want to go on to elaborate an ideal stable state – for not only ameliorative conceptions but also ideal conceptions must be structured around resistance to dysfunction. The ideal social organism will have a well-functioning immune system, and you cannot design one of those without a proper understanding of its susceptibility to disease….!/file/Fricker-EpistemicContributionasaHumanCapability.docx

    90. mike cassidy says:

      How sad!

      Nigel Farage cancels Scotland leg of UK tour as events calendar is ‘trimmed down’

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      In the spirit of righting the many epistemic injustices suffered on Scotland by British nationalism, I think a deeper understanding of popular sovereignty might be in order. So please feel free to fill your boots. 🙂

      Balancing Power in Democracy:
      A Philosophical Analysis of Popular Sovereignty


      This thesis analyses the concept of popular sovereignty as a core principle of democracy. For centuries, democracy has been hailed as the best form of government on the assumption that since the society is structured by the people for the sake of the people’s well-being, it is only reasonable that the people themselves be in charge of all the processes and activities which affect their lives. This thesis is a contribution to the larger democratic debate about power relations between citizens and their representatives in the light of modern day representative democratic politics.

      The ideal is that the people are sovereign in democracy, which is to say that the ultimate power rests with them. In practice, however, the people do not exercise real power over their affairs, as their representatives constantly usurp the power from them. This creates conflicts between the people and the representatives, causing a serious problem for the realization of the aims of democracy as a form of government.

      How to balance the extent to which citizens still remain in charge of their affairs, as they continue to entrust delegates with the execution of their decisions without risking the loss of their sovereignty, has been the main concern of this thesis.

      In our opinion, the solution to the problem of the conflict between citizens and their representatives, for a more orderly and peaceful society, depends on how the concept of popular sovereignty is understood. In our attempt to gain an understanding of popular sovereignty, we have employed the phenomenological and critical methods, based on pure library research. We have found in the process, primarily, that popular sovereignty rests on some fundamental principles, and is actualized by deliberation, publicly conducted in an environment where members regard themselves as free and equal.

      What this means, ultimately, is that for popular sovereignty to be achieved, there must be genuine efforts to instill in the citizens the principles on which it depends, and to institutionalize deliberation as a core element in every collective decision making at all levels of the society. Equally, there is need to impart legal knowledge to citizens, adapted progressively according to the comprehension capacity of the learners, starting from elementary levels of learning, until university or other tertiary levels of learning.

    92. Dr Jim says:

      Folk are by nature politically lazy plus they fear change even if they keep being beaten by the same stick the fear is will someone else’s stick be worse because they can bear the pain of the stick they’re used to and only complain when it gets worse rather than turn on the stick wielder

      God help the person who says I can help get you out of this because the abused will snarl at the potential helper accusing them of having a bigger stick behind their back and this fear will be supported and encouraged by the original abuser

      When people are abused over a long period they have no trust in anything……just like a dog whimpers to its abuser but snarls at others

      Ideologues nut jobs and sectarian bigots are not included, they can’t be helped and won’t be

    93. Ken500 says:

      Under the Tories life expectancy is going down. It is also lower in Scotland for historical reasons (Thatcher),but is going up. The Tories have killed off 120,000 elderly in the rest of the UK. Austerity, The Tories are killing their supporters off. Soon the Party will be finished, The members are over seventy and male.

      Never trust a Tory. They are trying to abolish Gov pensions. Soon no one will get one. They are complete imbeciles. Brexit will finish them off. They will be exiting.

    94. Why are we surprised?

      The Red Blue and Beige Tories have systematically and deliberately set about destroying social democracy since Thatcher.

      Blair was just Thatcher in a suit with bad teeth.

      Brown was known to be as mad as a hatter according to his biographers, and Cameron, May, and Johnson will not rest until they have culled or cowed the people of Scotland in particular, all four nations on these islands in general, into a Lumpen proletariat oflow paid slaves with a short life expectancy.

      We have people queuing at food banks because Ruth Davidson deliberately transferred the Wealth of Nations from the Many to the fat bloated Few.

      She is aware of what she is doing;it is quite deliberate, the killing off tens of thousands of her fellow Scots by English political diktat.
      The next time Willie Rennie wails about the mental health of our children, would someone rap him on the head with a copy of the UN report damning the UK Government and their deliberate laughingly called ‘austerity’ programme, designed to destroy civic society, channel all our wealth to the already Filthy Rich, and open the No Deal floodgates to the carpetbaggers and the US Privateers.
      Well, this ‘frog’ has stepped out of the pan of simmering putrid English Water.
      I refuse to be slowly boiled to death by a foreign government.

      I find it hard to imagine a 73 year old fireman mounting a ladder to rescue me from my burning Dun Roamin’, can you?

      They are destroying our country, and will not rest until we are serfs once more.
      Meanwhile 1/5th of my land has been set aside for posh psychopaths to kill animals for fun.
      If we don’t rise up now, when, for fuck’s sake?

    95. Civil unrest will erupt in London initially and spread throughout the cities of England by September when toilet rolls disappear from Union Jack supermarket shelves.
      Save on toilet paper; use a disposable Butcher’s Apron.

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      As I said, thing are falling into place for me, so here’s one for SNP members to get their teeth into before conference. You have a lot of inter-related issues to sort out.

      Btw, this knowledge is transferable to Scotland’s lack of political agency. As is all the stuff I post. 😉

      Gender and Human Rights
      Feminist Legal Theory and the Rights of Women

      It would be a misconception to believe that legal feminism as an idea came about only in the late 20th century. Issues regarding feminist thought have for a very long time been issues of great concern. In the context of law, modern feminist texts today encompass arguments for the rights of women and the achievement of equal political and legal status that were advocated as early as the 18th century. This chapter examines the relationship between modern campaigns and the feminist analyses of law which attempts to utilize human rights codes in obtaining equality, autonomy, and justice for women.

      The chapter identifies some of the different methods that have been developed within feminist legal theory such as liberalism. It also discusses various issues that are brought up within this context. The chapter also explores the feminist critiques that involve theories of political and legal rights, and investigates the models that are developed along with critical race theory that intend to provide better reconstructions of these rights.

      legal feminism, law, women’s rights, political status, legal status, human rights codes, critical race theory

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Remember now, I’m not religious but I do understand a bit about diversity and equality.

      The socio-political dynamics of secularism and epistemological injustice in global justice theory and practice

    98. Capella says:

      Interesting thread by Steve Analyst on twitter “Hello United Kingdom it’s the United States of America here, and we need to talk”. Then follows a meticulous shredding of the lies told about the EU in order to secure a LEAVE vote:

      His whole twitter account makes for interesting reading too

    99. TheItalianJob says:

      Broon’s a liar and a Unionist puppet.

      He’s in the same position of Mussolini when Hitler sent his storm troopers in to free him from jail. Hitler then ordered him to execute his Fascist council colleagues who had voted to take Italy out of the war. Included in this execution was Mussolini’s own Son in Law.

      Broon is of the same ilk. Ordered by the Westminster Establishment to lie to his own people to defend the Union.

      Yes Broon will execute his own people because he is a coward being manipulated like a puppet by Westminster.

      He is a total waste of a man with no scruples. Just selfish and greedy as he has a great ex PMs pension and a load of income from making speeches all over the world where people want to listen to his rantings.

      Only cares about himself and nobody else.

    100. Footsoldier says:

      Just reading on BBC website and heard it on national news that Glasgow has worst HIV in UK with 157 new cases detected since 2015 which is less than 40 per year.

      Then I came across this article from Public Health England:

      This report said “An estimated 1549 London residents were newly diagnosed with HIV in 2017, accounting for 39% of new diagnoses in England”.

      I admit to being confused as to how 1549 new cases of HIV in London in a single year versus 40 cases in Glasgow makes Glasgow the worst in the UK.

      Can anyone shed any light on this?

    101. Capella says:

      @ Footsoldier – I think I can shed some light – London is in England and Glasgow is in Scotland. Got it?

      (Not keen to do any maths at this time of night but somebody might.)

    102. Hamish100 says:


      It’s worse in Scotland cos BBC Smith says so.
      I thought her interview of the drug addict was one of the most callous things I’ve seen in a long time.
      BBC should be ashamed.

    103. CameronB Brodie says:

      I meant the stuff I post is relevant, not that it is immediately transferable, though some of it is.

      Excellence and Gender Equality:
      Critical Perspectives on Gender and Knowledge in the Humanities and Social Sciences

    104. Effijy says:

      Sara Smith and BBC given extended time to bad mouth Scotland again.
      The BBC found out crap roller out again!
      Over a 4 year period? What? Who measures things over a 4 year period?

      I20 HIV cases reported among Glasgow Junkies.
      Although there are plenty of needles made available to Junkies being out of their head
      They share needles as personal health and common sense don’t count for these people.

      Sara shit spinner added in her own unfounded propaganda that Glasgow homeless numbers
      Are escalating? No they are not thanks to SNP. Glasgow’s homeless are offered shelter and
      They will get a home although it does take a few weeks.

      Real story, Westminster Parties robbing Scotland of its wealth
      and cutting £2 Billion from our budget and attacking all benefits
      Has seen subside rates and drug abuse.

      Sara how worried were your beloved Labour Party about the homeless when in power at
      Holyrood? They built 6 news homes over 5 years.

      SNP have put teams in the street to test junkies to see if they have HIV.
      If so they can get treatment and they at least know they cannot share needles.

      Sickening Smith tried to interview a junkie who was completely out of his trolley
      The guy couldn’t have known what year we were in but filming him was pure
      Propaganda to try and say this is how Glaswegians live under SNP.

      Well Done SNP! Your are far superior to any English Party.

    105. BJ says:

      Regarding Empire biscuits, Make your own and call them German biscuits, it’ll annoy your yoon friends 🙂

    106. TheItalianJob says:

      Sarah Smith. Another Unionist puppet like Brown. Makes a fortune on us taxpayers money and cares not an iota about anyone but herself. I never watch or listen to her when on TV. I get all her stories and Scotland put downs from Social media outlets.

      Disgraceful person.

    107. Capella says:

      I read the Sarah Smith article on the BBC website, North British region.
      I was struck by her observation that Calum, her interviewee, wore a warm coat even though it was June. The photo illustrating the interview shows SS herself dressed in a warm coat with fur lined hood, even though it must have been June for her too. Perhaps it was chilly for June?

      The city in the eye of an HIV ‘perfect storm’ –

    108. TheItalianJob says:

      Broon and Sarah Smith and the rest of the Scottish Westminster Establishment puppeteers are all the same as this Unionist lackey.

      Jim Hood MP

      In February 2014, Hood outlined his opposition to Scottish independence in a commons debate, stating “Even if the SNP was right and there was a grand, great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its debate for independence, I would still be against it. If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union”

    109. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      By which I mean that Wingers of old will know this stuff; newer readers may become informed.

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      The incestuous relationship between BLiS___d and the BBC in Scotland, is a symptom of a dysfunctional political system. Well, prejudice and nepotism are mutually supportive character flaws that can be found in institutions, as well as individuals.

      I hope Dugdale is still taking notes. 😉

      Law, Sovereignty, and Democracy: Hans Kelsen’s Critique of Sovereignty


      This paper analyzes Hans Kelsen’s critique of sovereignty. I argue that Kelsen’s critique of sovereignty is based on a misleading and obsolete view of sovereignty which translates into his contested notion of the basic norm and hence his “monistic” theory of a legal system and international law. The implausibility of the monistic approach to law is shown not only on the theoretical level but also in the light of recent processes of pluralization and fragmentation of legal systems.

      The second part of the paper takes up Kelsen’s very much neglected theory of constitutional democracy. By focusing on Kelsen’s conception of the autonomy and the dynamics of lawmaking I try to show that Kelsen in fact relies on a notion of sovereignty quite different from the one he attempts to eliminate from legal and political theory. I argue that such an alternative notion of sovereignty represents an indispensable feature of constitutional democracy – and also a possible missing link between Kelsen’s legal theory and theory of democracy.

      The article concludes by addressing the question of the relationship between sovereignty and constitutional democracy and the impossibility of the realization of the latter without the former.

    111. carjamtic says:

      Energy Assessments of Buildings and Dwellings.

      Every building both public and private was to come complete with a certificate (similiar to an electrical appliance A, AA, AAA etc).

      So that when you bought/sold a house it came with a folder including said certificates ,to this end training took place up and down the country to allow people to be qualify as Energy Assessors/Inspectors ,there was a brig uptake as It was going to be compulsory.

      People paid for training and purchased the necessary test equipment including infra-red cameras…. to highlight heat losses in roofs etc.

      Correct me if I am wrong, the scheme was cancelled, (well the dwellings part of it did (? ) after these poor folk had shelled out all their hard earned) Westminster..

      It’s late and I going from memory, maybe someone could update this if I got it wrong,thanks.

    112. carjamtic says:

      Zero Carbon Homes initiative cancelled by George Osbourne just months before it was to be rolled out…..


    113. Elmac says:

      Re Effel @ 8.50pm

      I agree that NI contributions are partly intended to cover benefits such as free medical care etc. but a substantial part relates to building an entitlement to a state pension on attaining retirement age. This is NOT a benefit but a contractual right in the same way that payments into an employers pension scheme or a personal pension are. If it were a benefit then the level of state pension would not vary in accordance with the number of contribution years a pensioner has attained. Everyone would receive the same.

      To be fair to the politicians there was no pot of money in existence when the state pension came into being and pensions were, and continue to be, paid from the NI contributions of the current working population. It is in effect a giant Ponzi scheme. Westminster should have been working towards the creation of a fund to cover the potential future pension liabilities based on actuarial calculations. Some countries do this but not the UK. As a direct result of the failure to do so the UK is poorly placed to handle the effect of an ageing population. It is no accident that the UK state retirement pension is among the poorest in the EU and by a significant margin in comparison with the larger economies such as Germany, and also that Westminster are tinkering with statutory retirement ages. The chickens are coming home to roost and as usual it is Joe Public who has to pay the price. Nothing will change until we can hold politicians personally accountable for their actions (or lack of them) in public office.

      I repeat what I said earlier in this thread – successive UK governments have been responsible for a massive fraud which makes Robert Maxwell look like an amateur pickpocket.

    114. Ken500 says:

      Nigel is not coming for a milkshake.

      OA pensions are pay from tax revenues raised in Scotland (UK) £16Billion was paid in pensions/benefits in Scotland when unemployment was higher. £6Billion in (UK) OA pensions in Scotland. Pro rata it is lower than the rest of the UK. People die younger in Scotland but there is a higher % of pensioners pro rata. Total in UK was £78Billion? (£6Billion in Scotland).

      Pensions/benefits are the highest (UK) spend £200Billion+ Followed by NHS £100Billion+ Taxes raised in UK £661Billion. £60Billion raised in Scotland (higher pro rata). £16Billion in Scotland on pensions/benefits. £12.5Billion on the SNHS.

      If they paid £180+ a week OA pension. It would cut the administration of the system. It costs nearly as much to administrate, the pension/benefit system as the pay out.

      Sanctions just mean more money has to be spent on social services. Scotland has had to mitigate the Tory cuts. Bedroom tax etc.

      The Scottish Gov is building and renovation houses 6,000 a year. Over five years 30,000 house 17,000 house builders constructed a year. 50,000 people keel over in Scotland a year. There should soon be adequate houses. There are enough houses but some need renovation or brought back into use. Some areas have shortages because of demographic changes.

      Westminster imbeciles spends £Billion on Defence and illegal wars. Trident, nuclear etc. Westminster spend £7Billion a year on decommissions nuclear. Then waste even more on nuclear. A total waste of money. They cut investment in renewables. Renewables are far cheaper and safer.

      The Tories cut £4Billion a year from NHS, £6Billion from Education. From 2015 to 2000. The cut £3Billion from Welfare a year for 6 years (£18Billion). They are spending £Billion on HS2 and Hinkley Point. A total waste of money, HS2 now up to £85Billion but they have cut essential services funding.

      The HIV testing carry on is just for show. Interviewing people on drugs is just a waste of time. Drug users lie, it is a known consequence of drug (heroin) use. People on drugs lie so they can continue to use, Their accounts are not credible. The BBC reporters are fools, They should do a bit more research. Too lazy or ignorant.

      Money should be put into proper total abstinence, one chance, rehab facilities. Cheaper than prison. The Councils do not provide or support proper rehab facilities, under social care. Doctors could refer people under the SNHS. Too many people are being prescribed methadone by practitioner nurses, who drink wine every night. People are left on methadone for fat too long. Many Doctors will not prescribe methadone. All the drug deaths in Scotland are people who are prescribed methadone and take other substances. It kills people.

    115. Ken500 says:

      In some countries people pay insurance for NHS. £20 a week? Germany etc. The Tories are trying to bring payment into the NHS.

    116. Ken500 says:

      If they do not pay pensions earlier. They have to pay other benefits or allowances. Unemployment, housing benefit etc. It just means more expense of administration.

    117. manandboy says:

      Strictly O/T:

      Dave’s 10 funniest jokes of the 2019 fringe
      1. I keep randomly shouting out “Broccoli” and “Cauliflower”. I think I might have Florets. – Olaf Falafel

      2. Someone stole my antidepressants. Whoever they are, I hope they’re happy. – Richard Stott

      3. What’s driving Brexit? From here it looks like it’s probably the Duke of Edinburgh. – Milton Jones

      4. A cowboy asked me if I could help him round up 18 cows. I said, “Yes, of course. That’s 20 cows.” – Jake Lambert

      5. A thesaurus is great. There’s no other word for it. – Ross Smith

      6. Sleep is my favourite thing in the world. It’s the reason I get up in the morning. – Ross Smith

      7. I accidentally booked myself on to an escapology course; I’m really struggling to get out of it. – Adele Cliff

      8. After learning six hours of basic semaphore, I was flagging. – Richard Pulsford

      9. To be or not to be a horse rider, that is Equestrian. – Mark Simmons

      10. I’ve got an Eton-themed advent calendar, where all the doors are opened for me by my dad’s contacts. – Ivo Graham

    118. manandboy says:

      Here on Wings, how’s about a competition, in competition with Dave’s competition, for the UK Government’s ’10 Biggest Lies’, or, ‘Top Twenty Establishment Lies’, or even ‘The Lies that Built Britain’.
      Or, how’s about the ‘Top Ten lies in History that England told Scotland’.

      Competition’s open. Go on give it a go. To gain Independence for Scotland – Every Little Helps.

    119. Sinky says:

      I see the Unionist dominated Electoral Commission is refusing to allow a clear Yes / No IndyRef2 and proposing a ONE year review thus delaying an early referendum.

      The Establishment will no doubt also stop Wings plans to register as a political party.

    120. McBoxheid says:

      Bob Mack says:
      18 August, 2019 at 3:08 pm

      You can see the day coming when they will be able to sell your house or raid your bank account to take contributions to your pension that you would have been due had you not died prematurely before retirement age.
      Into the Waterworld sludge you will go to feed the rest of the living dead.

    121. Juteman says:

      The whole pension situation needs completely overhauled in an indy Scotland.
      Some countries have those that do physical jobs retiring first. It makes no sense, and is unsafe, for a desk jockey to retire at 55 and a scaffolder with knackered knees working on to they are 75.
      It is crazy that someone can retire from the police at 38 with a full pension. When they are unable to do frontline work they should move to desk jobs.
      We need a modern pension system.

    122. manandboy says:

      Contenders for ‘England’s Biggest Lie to Scotland’ :

      * Scotland is economically dependent on England

      * There’s very little oil in the North Sea

      * We’re Better Together

      * You Can Trust the BBC

      * The Tories care about the voters

      * Britain is a Democracy

      * Brexit is Best for Britain

      * England pays for Scotland

      * There is No Tory-Labour Alliance

      * Britain is no longer a society based on Class

      * The tax on watching TV is a Licence.

    123. manandboy says:

      When the Tories introduce Euthanasia, either they won’t announce it, or, they will cover it up by giving it another name.

      A bit like Austerity really.

    124. Golfnut says:

      @ Ken 500.
      Some countries pay insurance for NHS, £20 a week.

      Ken, so do we.
      It’s called National Insurance. Our National Insurance covers Social Security( now called benefits), The NHS and Pensions. For pensions there is/was a specific ( there fore contractual ) requirement of 35 years of personal and employer contributions before qualifying for your full pension. It is a criminal offence if employers fail to pay employers contributions, though some companies Head office offshore to avoid paying it, we know who they are.
      Bye the way Ken this is for the ‘ benefit ‘ of the egjit upthread, not you.

    125. Dorothy Devine says:

      manandboy , you forgot ,

      Scotland will be out of the EU and Spain will block re-entry.

      Footsoldier and Efijy , thanks for those follow ups , however I’m sure every “Scottish” paper will have the BBBC headline of ‘HIV Rampant in Glasgow _ an SNP FAIL”

      It did strike me that after Dundee was named drug deaths capitol of the universe , and then out crept the results for England and Wales that that scenario might play out again for HIV.

    126. Effijy says:

      Who footed the bill for Scottish Police being trained to fight civil unrest
      In Scotland that would be fully justified by the insane actions of the country
      Next door?

      Where are all these Tory think tanks to tell us how many £10’s of Billions
      Have been wasted worrying and preparing for Brexit?

    127. Golfnut says:

      @ Footsoldier and Capella.

      HIV deaths.

      London population roughly the same size as the whole of Scotland, so no need to fuss over the maths. Bollocks covers it I think.

    128. manandboy says:

      When No Deal Brexit happens on 31st October this year, the thousands of trucks from England which supply English Supermarkets in Scotland, Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Marks and Spencer, Asda, and Morrison’s, will all stop.

      England will feed itself first.

      Trucks carrying Scottish food to England will continue after Brexit, or will be transported by train instead.

      England cannot and does not feed itself. It is dependent on food imports from abroad, especially from the EU – and of course Scotland.

      As a result of England’s daily need to feed its 55 million population, Brexit will see a resurgence of Britain’s brutal imperialism applied to Scotland, as Westminster will attempt to strip Scotland of all the food and drink Scotland produces.
      Scotland’s Tory-voting farmers and Tory-voting food companies, like Baxter in Fochabers, will of course co-operate fully with their London Masters.

      Think it won’t happen? Ask the Irish. During the so-called Famine in Ireland, Irish food exports to England continued without any interruption, while starvation took the lives of so many, while many others were forced to emigrate, or die.

      While England was fully fed with Irish food.

      Do we want a Scottish ‘Famine’?

      Then vote Yes to Independence. And join the SNP.

    129. Ken500 says:

      Some countries pay another contribution for health insurance. Pay at the Doctors. Most hive higher wages do people are able to do. The UK is a low wage economy. The Westminster imbeciles spend so much on illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Instead of the money being invested in the economy resulting in higher wages.

      Elderly women were denied pension rights. They worked P/T so could not contribute for pension rights. They were not allowed. Many (married) were advised by the Gov to pay the small stamp and get pension rights on their husbands contribution. They have to wait until their husband retires until they receive their pensions, although they are often younger. Cherie Blair took the case in Court and won, to deny women any back dated pension rights.

      The best health advice is lifestyle changes, MUP is already saving money and people’s lives.

      Dundee has been transformed by the (SNP) Council. Aberdeen unionist Council is a disgrace. Appalling. Shops and offices sitting empty. Cost £200million. A grotesque monstrosity no one wanted. People wanted pedestrianisation and open spaces. The UTG project would have cost £20Million and renovated the City, The Labour imbeciles refused a £80million gift. The illegal ConLab coalition ruining the City. Just a bunch of chancers.

    130. manandboy says:

      I did. Thank you, Dorothy.

    131. manandboy says:

      Contenders for ‘England’s Biggest Lie to Scotland’ : updated

      * Scotland is economically dependent on England

      * There’s very little oil in the North Sea

      * We’re Better Together

      * You Can Trust the BBC

      * The Tories care about the voters

      * Britain is a Democracy

      * Brexit is Best for Britain

      * England pays for Scotland

      * There is No Tory-Labour Alliance

      * Britain is no longer a society based on Class

      * The tax on watching TV is a Licence.

      * Scotland will be out of the EU and Spain will block re-

    132. Breeks says:

      John H. says:
      18 August, 2019 at 4:29 pm

      My wife and I are pensioners. We are both members of the SNP, and we both voted for independence in 2014. Should we eat Union Jacks as well?

      I think you misunderstood John H.

      It wasn’t a general dig at pensioners who backed the Union in 2014. It was more a cynical dig at the Union itself, which sees waving a flag as the panacea to every problem. People have real problems ahead, and a bit of flag waving isn’t going to help, but it’s all the Union will offer.

    133. mike cassidy says:


      I give up on this one.

      Maybe too early for me.

      A cowboy asked me if I could help him round up 18 cows. I said, “Yes, of course. That’s 20 cows.” – Jake Lambert

      And here’s one that didn’t make it.

      I got made redundant from the trampoline factory. But I’ll bounce back.

    134. Breeks says:

      manandboy says:
      19 August, 2019 at 8:09 am

      Contenders for ‘England’s Biggest Lie to Scotland’ : updated

      * There’s very little oil in the North Sea….

      ….and what there is, is worthless.

      * Scottish Education is in crisis.

      * Scottish NHS is in crisis.

      * Scotland couldn’t defend itself.

      * Scotland would not be let into Europe.

      * Scotland would be enslaved by Europe.

      * Scotland would have to join the Euro.

      * Scotland is an equal partner in the Union.

      * Scotland ceased to exist in 1707.

      * Robert the Bruce had leprosy.

      * William Wallace was hung drawn and quartered for Treason.

      * The clearances were largely voluntary.

      * Grouse Moor is a traditional landscape.

      * Auld Scots is a bastardisation of ‘proper’ English.

      * Scottish history was taught at school.

      * The Jacobites were rebels.

      All lies.

      Big doubts about Willie MacRae too…
      Significant doubts that 2014 YES Ref was a sound result…

    135. Breeks says:

      * Scotland was bankrupted by the Darien Scheme.

    136. manandboy says:

      Yesterday, in conversation with an Independence No Voter, I drew his attention to the one million plus barrels of oil produced in Scotland’s oilfields, from which there is no revenue to Scotland, all to England. It was water off a duck’s back.

      The British Nationalist brainwashing is like Teflon coating. The truth of Scotland’s situation simply does not stick in the BritNat brainwashed brain. The good news I suppose, is that Teflon wears off after a while. There’s hope yet.

      Ps. I told my wife the 10 funniest fringe jokes. She couldn’t stop laughing.

      The 11th joke – the ‘United’ Kingdom.

    137. mike cassidy says:

      Capella 12.14

      Love your observation of Sarah Smith’s coat.

      Has someone at the Beeb felt like being a bit subversive using that picture?

    138. manandboy says:

      Breeks! Stop! I can’t keep up! So many, so true. Picking the top 10 won’t be easy. Even a top 20!

    139. manandboy says:

      Last year’s v’Dave’s Funniest Joke of the Fringe’- now in its 11th year – was won by Liverpool comedian Adam Rowe, is a cracker – and worth retelling I think:

      “Working at the Jobcentre has to be a tense job – knowing that if you get fired, you still have to come in the next day.”

    140. manandboy says:

      Strictly O/T: Updated

      Dave’s 10 funniest jokes of the 2019 fringe
      1. I keep randomly shouting out “Broccoli” and “Cauliflower”. I think I might have Florets. – Olaf Falafel

      2. Someone stole my antidepressants. Whoever they are, I hope they’re happy. – Richard Stott

      3. What’s driving Brexit? From here it looks like it’s probably the Duke of Edinburgh. – Milton Jones

      4. A cowboy asked me if I could help him round up 18 cows. I said, “Yes, of course. That’s 20 cows.” – Jake Lambert

      5. A thesaurus is great. There’s no other word for it. – Ross Smith

      6. Sleep is my favourite thing in the world. It’s the reason I get up in the morning. – Ross Smith

      7. I accidentally booked myself on to an escapology course; I’m really struggling to get out of it. – Adele Cliff

      8. After learning six hours of basic semaphore, I was flagging. – Richard Pulsford

      9. To be or not to be a horse rider, that is Equestrian. – Mark Simmons

      10. I’ve got an Eton-themed advent calendar, where all the doors are opened for me by my dad’s contacts. – Ivo Graham

      + “Working at the Jobcentre has to be a tense job – knowing that if you get fired, you still have to come in the next day.” Adam Rowe 2018 winner.

      + “I got made redundant from the trampoline factory. But I’ll bounce back.” Didnae make to the final 10

    141. chicmac says:

      According to Wiki the oldest retirement age in the World is 70, for economically destroyed Libya. No European country has a retirement age as high as 70 and some countries in Europe allow retirement at 62 if you have enough working years, or start paying the state pension before the official retirement age anyway.

      So the UK will have not only the lowest pension in the OECD but will have to wait years longer than anyone else.

      All hail BritNat propaganda, the best wee con trick in the World.

    142. winifred mccartney says:

      I totally agree with Hamish 11.49pm that Sarah Smiths interview with the poor out of it drug addict was the most callous thing I have ever seen. The man was incapable of giving consent but never mind its a great snp baad story and Ms Smith will move mountains to cover anything that puts the snp in a bad light.

      I also do not believe anything that comes out of her mouth it is spun so hard it makes no sense. Glasgow is no better/worse than any big city (look at figures for London) but why change the habits of lifetime when there is an snp baaad story to be filed.

      She was trying to enhance her street cred with a ‘parka’ coat to blend in – only thing hers probably cost at least 10 times what a parka costs and just made her look more of what she was – a patronising, use anybody to dis the snp labour lovey.

    143. Dan says:

      Has anybody else been pondering on the use of the word Yellowhammer? What connotations come to mind when considering what is yellow that Westminster would like to hammer.

      “Operation Yellowhammer is intended to mitigate, within the UK, the effects of this disruption, and would be expected to run for approximately three months. It has been developed by the Civil Contingencies Secretariat (CCS), a department of the Cabinet Office responsible for emergency planning.”

    144. manandboy says:


      Please add your entries:

      Contenders for ‘England’s Biggest Lie’ to Scotland, Top Ten.

      (Courtesy of Breeks, Dorothy & manandboy)

      * Scotland is economically dependent on England

      * There’s very little oil in the North Sea

      * We’re Better Together

      * You Can Trust the BBC

      * The Tories care about the voters

      * Britain is a Democracy

      * Brexit is Best for Britain

      * England pays for Scotland

      * There is No Tory-Labour Alliance

      * Britain is no longer a society based on Class

      * The tax on watching TV is a Licence.

      * Scotland will be out of the EU and Spain will block re-

      * There’s very little oil in the North Sea….

      ….and what there is, is worthless.

      * Scottish Education is in crisis.

      * Scottish NHS is in crisis.

      * Scotland couldn’t defend itself.

      * Scotland would not be let into Europe.

      * Scotland would be enslaved by Europe.

      * Scotland would have to join the Euro.

      * Scotland is an equal partner in the Union.

      * Scotland ceased to exist in 1707.

      * Robert the Bruce had leprosy.

      * William Wallace was hung drawn and quartered for Treason.

      * The clearances were largely voluntary.

      * Grouse Moor is a traditional landscape.

      * Auld Scots is a bastardisation of ‘proper’ English.

      * Scottish history was taught at school.

      * The Jacobites were rebels.

      * Scotland was bankrupted by the Darien Scheme.

    145. chicmac says:

      Dunno Dan. Yellowhammer is a bird. Perhaps ‘caging’ is the link but seems tenuous.

      It has also occurred to me that perhaps there is a Greenhammer a Yellowhammer and a Redhammer as in responses to the alert equivalents.

    146. Phydaux says:

      Ian Duncan Smith is the real deal. Who can forget the malevolent joy in his eyes, whilst punching the air with his fists, when the Tories won the vote on the Bedroom Tax? Evil has an odour and IDS stinks. No thinking required for his so called think tanks…think I’ll call them stink tanks from now on.

      I am raging. The evil Empire strikes back. That’s what predators do. They keep coming back, throwing themselves into their new roles with the fervour of a fox in a hen house. Their main drugs of choice are power and money, ensuring their wealth remains hidden.

      Can’t have those pesky EU regulations on tax havens exposing their ill-gotten gains…illegal drugs trafficking, people trafficking, arms and weapons, blood diamonds etc…all paid for in the constant flow of human misery, death and degradation. Eye-watering sums of money involved, the MO of the “ British “ Empire.

      It was Jimmy Reid, a true revolutionary hero, who emphasised that what one did rather than what one talked about doing was the real mark and measure of a person. When faced with an imperial power, one ought to do everything non-violent that one can to resist it. I am almost at the end of my tether and will resist this rotten to its stinking core criminal enterprise of Westminster with everything I’ve got. See youse at the Barricades folks.

    147. Terry callachan says:

      The yellowhammer bird song is sometimes described as

      A little bit of bread but no cheese
      In other words a bit lacking

      So someone named operation yellowhammer thinking it was a bit of a joke

    148. Clootie says:

      Michael Brown has stated that he used investors money to make a 2.4 million donation to the LibDems. Did the LibDems not consider it their duty to return the money to those the victim of fraud?

      I wonder if his “LibDem connections” managed to get him his new position ar Serco

    149. Clootie says:

      * We did not hide the McCrone Report.

    150. Golfnut says:

      @ Phydaux.

      Unfortunately for the likes of IDS Scotland has a key to the vaults in many of those tax havens, which is going to come in handy when negotiations start.

    151. call me dave says:


      Sarah Smith getting down and dirty on the Glasgow drugs HIV seemed … well strange as she must have underlings that get these assignments.

      Then I thought about the context and all the radio shortbread litany of SGov bad this morning! Why the big guns?

      A constant stream which indicates a ramping up of YES V NO debate and we all know what side the BBC are promoting.

      I’ll wager that after the dust settles figures will appear that shines a better light on the matter.

    152. Dan says:

      Aye Chic. I’m just wondering that’s all. To me the word “hammer” instills ideas of authoritarian and forceful methods to deal with any dissent that arises.

      Plus there’s Longshanks – Hammer of the Scots too…

    153. Jomry says:

      Yellowhammer. A little bit of bread and no cheese.

    154. manandboy says:

      Nice one, Clootie. And a big one.

      Adds another dimension – lying through preventing the truth to be known. Huge part of Government spending since 1970; how the Empire was built, and how British Government’s in particular operate. The Official Secrets Act comes to mind.

    155. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy – it seemed such an odd thing to say about someone, “wrapped up in a warm coat EVEN THOUGH IT WAS JUNE”, then I saw the picture. I guess she was was implying that junkies/HIV people feel the cold and are out of touch with reality. Like her. 🙂

    156. chicmac says:

      On drugs.

      The vast majority of overdose deaths are those in middle age, those who began the use of drugs during Labour’s tenure in the SP or even pre SP.

      Drugs policy is a retained power. SNP requests for safe rooms have been turned down.

      I have been told that in Scotland drug death figures include a lot of other than straightforward overdosing, e.g. any traffic victims if drugs are detected in any of those involved, same for any victims of criminality if drugs are involved also for those with underlying health issues where drugs may not have been the significant factor.

      Best way to deal with it is to legalise drugs for administration from Government controlled centres. Safer for drug victims and would remove the profit for dealers. No more street dealers or shady evillists hanging around school gates, no more drug related burglaries, muggings etc.

    157. Capella says:

      @ manandboy – you can add – the GERS figures are an accurate reflection of the Scottish economy.

    158. Proud Cybernat says:


      We won’t get Strictly or Dr Who.

    159. chicmac says:

      manandboy, Clootie

      Didn’t bury a string of polls after devolution showing 54% yes support for independence.

      Didn’t bury the fact that Barclay’s bank clandestinely had a larger bail out than RBS and HBOS put together.

      Didn’t cover up massive oil and gas finds until after indyref1

    160. manandboy,

      Yie’ll lose yir state pension.

    161. manandboy says:

      Thanks for the lies, guys. I’m amazed at the ones I’d forgotten about. Maybe part of Scotland’s problem, forgetting the long history of England’s lies as we approach the voting booth.

    162. John Bell says:

      Its a think tank report – the UK government will consider it and after a short gap will announce an increase to 70 years old and everyone will be fooled into giving a huge sigh of relief

    163. manandboy says:

      More contenders for ‘England’s Biggest Lie’ Top Ten

      (thanks to Capella, Proud Cybernat, Chicmac, & The Tree of Liberty)

      * the GERS figures are an accurate reflection of the Scottish economy.

      * We won’t get Strictly or Dr Who.

      * Didn’t bury a string of polls after devolution showing 54% yes support for independence.

      * Didn’t bury the fact that Barclay’s bank clandestinely had a larger bail out than RBS and HBOS put together.

      * Didn’t cover up massive oil and gas finds until after indyref1

      * Yie’ll lose yir state pension.

      Ps. A pattern is emerging…. could it possibly be that the English Ruling Classes, fronted by The Tories, are synonymous with systemic, institutional, wilful and shameless lying? Well I never!

    164. Jomry says:

      The “Glasgow is full of homeless junkies and it’s the SNP’s fault” is part of the current BBC and MSM exercise to persuade the undecided that an independent Scotland would be a poverty stricken hellhole driven by “SNP austerity”.

      Fortunately, we have a resource like John Robertson’s “Talking up Scotland” and articles like provide a forensic dismantling of some of the “poverty stricken Scotland” stories.

      His site is probably visited by most people here – but it is still well worthwhile to remind people of it. Well worth a regular visit for current and topical issues. His output is prolific and all of his stuff meticulously researched.

      All of his articles are published also in a “Scoop-it” template at hi – the layout of which mimics a newsstand so you can scan the headlines and home in on the articles you are interested in. It is an excellent rebuttal site.

    165. Hackalumpoff says:

      Nana’s links page is now open for comments.

    166. Jomry says:

      Sorry. John Robertson’s “Scoop-it” link should be

    167. Willie says:

      Absolutely Fabulous it really is.

      When you think about folk having to work, or more appropriately having to live to 75 years of age before they get a state pension. Makes you realise exactly the type of society that Britain has become.

      And with the elderly consuming health care it doesn’t take much more imagination to realise how Universal Health Care Credit is going to work out in a future privatised health service. One doesn’t need much savvy to work out where the level of healthcare credit will be set, and what happens after you’ve spent your credit.

      But hey, in the USA there are circa 70,000,0000 Americans with no healthcare. So why not here. Well that’s what we voted for, was it not. And Boris, Fsrage and Trump are going to deliver it.

      Rev, you can remind readers of the valueless rotten promises made by ("Tractor" - Ed)s like Gordon Brown but it makes me despair that it takes the boot of austerity, denied opportunity, and repression to make folks change their mind.

      There are not enough people alive now who remember what it was like before the NHS was set up in 1948. Where people had to pay in guineas private fees to doctors. Where in the poorer parts of Glasgow some folks would get all their teeth removed to avoid having to go to a dentist for care they couldn’t afford.

      But it’s back to the future. Austerity, universal credit capped at a sum that ignores need. Time altogether for change as we get locked in to a UK that has fast become an open prison with many millions on very restricted rations.

      Independence, where we can look to Nordic models of society. The time has come and we must double our endeavour to escape from the hell hole to which we are attached. Our future generations deserve no less.

    168. Cubby says:


      British Nationalists lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

      That seems to sum them up for me.

    169. Dorothy Devine says:

      manandboy , I forgot about being in a poor position for alien invasion and of course Russian subs at the Broomielaw.

      Of course they were going to bomb our airports so that those pesky Russians couldn’t just fly in.

    170. Marie Clark says:

      manandboy, another one for your consideration. There’ll be no cross border organ transplants after indy.

      That one was particularly despicable.

    171. Abulhaq says:

      Admiral Brown going down with his ship. Last words, “We’re unsinkable”.

    172. kapelmeister says:

      Apparently David Cameron’s forthcoming memoirs are to be called For The Record.

      Although the book will doubtless be known in Scotland as Thank God For The Record.

    173. Dan says:

      Don’t forget “An independent Scotland would be more vulnerable to threats from space”.

      “Threats from space” wasn’t defined, but staying in the union has certainly made Scot’s more vulnerable to the toxic policies emanating from the “space” between Conservative MP’s ears…

    174. Fireproofjim says:

      Another Union lie, courtesy of Gordon Brown. September 2014.
      “Scots will be excluded from the blood transfusion service and will be unable to get transplant organs,” when he must know that these are covered by international agreements and nothing to do with the EU or the U.K.
      The man is an inveterate liar.

    175. starlaw says:

      How does every other country in Europe manage to pay better pensions than the UK. Scotland better of in Europe.

    176. Terry callachan says:

      This is a great article from the Irish times about lies the UK govt tell to the UK population about how the EU is administered

    177. manandboy says:


      Thank you, Dorothy Devine & Marie Clark,for those lies. Each one makes the case for Independence ever stronger.
      Cubby just about sums it up in these words : ‘British Nationalists lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything. That seems to sum them up for me.’

      * I forgot about being in a poor position for alien invasion and of course Russian subs at the Broomielaw.

      * Of course they were going to bomb our airports so that those pesky Russians couldn’t just fly in.

      * There’ll be no cross border organ transplants after indy.
      That one was particularly despicable.

    178. Capella says:

      Byline article by David Hencke from July 2018 –
      Recently I discovered that successive governments had taken a decision NOT to top up the fund as originally proposed by William Beveridge when the welfare state was set up in 1948.

      We now know that virtually no money was paid into the fund by the Treasury for around 24 years from 1990 to 2014. I calculate – and this will be a conservative estimate – because it doesn’t count the reduced contributions post 1981 – that an amazing £271 billion yes billion extra would have been in the fund.

      This would pay more than three times over the money due to the women – and even allowed higher state pensions for everybody else now.

      Read more at:

    179. Capella says:

      @ manadboy – I would call it a catalogue of Westminster’s lies. I doubt many English people have a scooby about what is being done and said about Scotland, or even England. In fact, it’s obvious from reading their newspaper articles that most of them are clueless. All those years of public school education followed by Oxbridge seems to addle the brain.

    180. manandboy says:

      Thanks too to Dan & Fireproofjim, will be included in next update

    181. Terry callachan says:

      How the right wing English press hate and insult the Irish president

      We in Scotland recognise this English press behaviour
      I think India and all the other countries around the world that experienced English colonisation recognise this behaviour too

      England as a country loves its newspapers and because of that you have surely to conclude that they have a problem

    182. galamcennalath says:

      Re all the BritNat lies.

      I still think there should be printed ‘bullshit bingo’ postcards with all the ridiculous claims on a matrix. And then a reverence to website. That site would have a page per lie with debunking backed up with lots of links to independent confirmation.

    183. Golfnut says:

      @ Manandboy

      Scotland’s an equal partner.
      Scotland gets more money per head than everyone else.
      The most devolved parliament in the universe.
      Scots hate the English.
      It’s the wrong kind of oil.
      We can’t share the pound

    184. raineach says:

      @galamcennalath At an SNP in 2015 I did indeed have a Bingo card with boxes for the spurious arguments!

    185. Dr Jim says:

      Jeremy Corbyn borrowed HG Wells time machine and travelled back in time to little Scotland today (that’s Corby in Northamptonshire for those who don’t know) where he delivers his usual speech to the Jurassic park of the Labour party, although discovered in the modern age still remains firmly in 1945

      They cheer loudly as Dippy the Corbynosaur promises them steel coal water and jobs by invoking their recent memories of Mrs Thatcher who some didn’t even know wasn’t still the Prime Minister

      Corby, the land that time forgot, if you haven’t been there you should go and learn the lesson of what not to do if you don’t want to return to 1945 to the *good times* when we all sung together as we worked *downt pit*

      All they needed was Vera Lynne on the crackly wireless and the picture would’ve been complete to rousing shouts of Ee by Gum as Jeremy delivered a speech that could’ve been written by a politically motivated Enid Blyton or Beatrix Potter

      Actually the Corbynsaur wasn’t wrong so much in what he said but he might have picked a town that wasn’t going to vote for him anyway no matter Brexit or war or famine or flood and would cheer massively if he’d just sent a talking Labour pit pony to deliver the same speech

      Jeremy says he disagrees with Gordon Brown, no he doesn’t, he’s the same guy in a different suit but using the same tactics of get yer flat cap on and strike a blow for imaginary freedom from the Tory oppression that the Labour party always enables

      Sorry Jeremy but the real Scotland has seen right through this stuff unlike Corby who watched it all unfold again on their black and white tellys

    186. Terry callachan says:

      Here is an interesting article showing how ferries between Scotland and Northern Ireland are the most expensive of all ferries leaving UK
      The cheapest ferry services of course are reserved for the English

    187. Breeks says:

      The list is the tip of the ice berg.

      In addition to lies we’ve been told, there are lies by omission, things we just aren’t told, or which are being manipulated. I’m thinking of issues like police and our NHS, where unionists dig up obscure information with FOI requests, contrive a headline story, but when the truth emerges, that Scotland’s performance is actually much better than South of the border, the whole subject magically disappears.

      We have foreign commentators promoted as great sages of wisdom if they condemn Scotland’s Independence, but if they are benign towards Indy, it is never broadcast.

      Then we have the Constitutional misinformation. “The country”, “The Nation”. If the European Union was called the country or Nation of Europe, it would be incorrect. The UK is not a country. The UK is not a Nation. “British” is not a nationality any more than European is.

      Indeed, for those Unionists like Mundell who maintain the Union of 1707 extinguished the Nations of Scotland and England, why didn’t it extinguish the same nationalities? Why is there no word for a UK National? British is a geographical term, not national either.

      These are all fallacies maintained which don’t stand up to scrutiny, but it is the scrutiny which gets discredited, not the fallacy.

    188. Proud Cybernat says:


      Michelle Mone to quit Scotland if we vote YES.

    189. manandboy says:

      Thanks, Golfnut, these are classic BritNat lies.

      * Scotland’s an equal partner.

      * Scotland gets more money per head than everyone else.

      * The most devolved parliament in the universe.

      * Scots hate the English.

      * It’s the wrong kind of oil.

      * We can’t share the pound

    190. John Muir says:

      There’s always “Greece without the sun”

      And don’t forget “Punching above our weight”. Though punching what exactly? Above our belt would make a change!

    191. Cactus says:

      “Will ye still need me, will ye still feed me, when ahm 64 74 75…”

      Where are they taking us?

    192. Bob Mack says:

      What kind of life do you have when you hear about some aspect of Scottish everyday living is better than elsewhere in the UK, and yet you have to find a creative way of playing that down, or just plain lie about it?

      It must be tiresome to be filled with such hate and anger that you try to deny what is clearly evident to everyone else.

      An awakening is happening in Scotland ,much against the wishes of those who would prefer us to remain ignorant and disinterested as before.

      Our time is coming nonetheless.

    193. Jack Murphy says:

      Effijy said at 11:54 pm last night:

      “…..Sickening Smith tried to interview a junkie who was completely out of his trolley
      The guy couldn’t have known what year we were in but filming him was pure Propaganda……”

      We saw that BBC News Flagship item by Smith,”our Scotland correspondent”, and was shocked and pained at just how low the BBC and it’s journalist Smith could stoop.

      It’s exactly the same as someone slowly going into a diabetic hypoglycemic coma—-would Smith on BBC News be hand-wringing in the street and highlighting the distress and incoherence of such a coma?

      To intrude on illness face to face during a medical crisis is shameful beyond words.

      Any semblance of respect I had for the BBC or Smith evaporated within seconds as this very ill man struggled to comprehend and understand the BBC and Smith’s questions.

      THE PATIENT ON THE STREET WAS IN NO FIT STATE TO GIVE INFORMED CONSENT for the BBC or Smith putting his distress out nationwide.

    194. Balaaargh says:


      Can confirm about Corby. Had to stay there for a few weeks because of work and I was glad to come home. I’ve lived half my adult life in the Midlands and I thought Dudley was depressing before I went to Corby.

      On saying that, there is a significant Scots presence there from the days of the mine.

    195. Dan says:

      MOD promises on ship building.

      Frigging Frigates in the Rigging (of referendum)

    196. Lochside says:

      Sarah Smith is a despicable propagandist, twisted by her hatred of the SNP and the ‘sheep’ that have the audacity to support them and the Independence movement. She and her ilk i.e. the entire ‘Scottish’ MSM will not shrink from rolling around in the shite and misery of people’s suffering in a desperate attempt to score political points.

      She knows that she is in the same boat as IDS, another despicable sociopath who grat crocodile tears over Easterhouse’ poor and disabled on a whistle stop tour before punishing them further with Universal credit and welfare cuts.

      What we are witnessing is the ugly fruits of the NEOCON conspiracy by International billionaires funding Trump, Bannon, Farage and their tory puppets here, to socially engineer the poor, the old and the sick out of existence , with the rest being oppressed into a reserve army of forced labour. Next stop: State enforced euthanasia.

      Jimmy Airlie, on of the Upper Clyde Shipyards leaders, along with Jimmy Reid, came from a generation of working men who recognised the evil of the EngTory mindset. He described the social engineering under Thatcher as ‘the Brazilianisation of Britain’. He was right then and he would be even more correct now.

      The difference is that ‘Britain’ is no more. And Scotland must rise against this evil and vote itself out of the clutches of predatory forces emanating from Westminster. Things have become so bad that outright criminals such as IDS can pontificate about virtual return to Dickensian life as leading to ‘wellbeing’!
      Let’s not forget one of his scurvy crew mooted bringing back workhouses!…and they mean it. So we must make the only choice available to protect our childrena nd grandchildren from this obscenity being wrought on us

    197. Welsh Sion says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 12.41 pm

      I know you can’t get enough of the Moaning Baroness … 😉

      Tonight, Channel 4 @ 10.30 pm–s1-e3-born-famous-michelle-mone/

    198. Dan says:

      Re. Corby

      Decent vid for the song by Big Country – Steeltown.

      Keep an alert reader eye out for the street names @ 1min 30secs!

    199. Robert Kerr says:

      Submission to Electoral Commission for iRef2

      “Should Scotland be an independent country again”

      Lets have some apoplexy from the Britnats!

    200. gus1940 says:

      I would like to know what % of those S. of the Border are aware of all the AUOB marches.

    201. Doug Bryce says:

      > Michelle Mone to quit Scotland if we vote YES.

      Magic! yet another reason to vote YES

    202. Dr Jim says:

      The Electoral commission claims the question for Indyref2 is ambiguous and not an adequate question and that might lead to delays in sanctioning it

      The question is exactly the same as in 2014 and the people understood it quite clearly then says the Scottish government

      One wonders what the Electoral commission considers is an adequate question and what do they want to change it too

      Do you think mibbees Scotland should be an Independent country, answer mibbees aye or mibbees naw or ah don’t know or depends

      Can you smell it? I bet you can

    203. call me dave says:

      Jeremy drawing up plans to rejoin the EU after Brexit happens.

      But they told us up here there was a queue.

      Electoral Commission would really want to advise us on the Indy2
      question, don’t be too hasty Scotland, we’ll help out. 🙂

    204. Doug says:

      @Lochside 1:05pm

      Well said. The britnat bbc and Scotland’s britnat media deserve to be despised. They are the enemies of the people of Scotland.

    205. Clapper57 says:

      @ Dr Jim @ 12.09

      Spot on Dr Jim. Did I hear right BTW..did he start of by thanking some female from GLASGOW for being there…who had handed him a card on the poverty she had experienced while GROWING UP …oh not contrived at all…wait …poverty while she was GROWING UP you say Jeremy…so if she is twelve years old it could be another SNPBAD as Salmond elected 2007 then Nicola Sturgeon from 2014 onwards ( approx. 12 years)..aah see what you are trying to do there Jeremy hmm …but if female is older than that..say now a woman …..then that would be her growing up while Scotland was under a Labour devolved administration up to 2007 …WM Labour govt from 1997 to 2010 then Tory WM government from 2010 onwards…so was the female you named an adult or a child ??? …

      So , FEMALE from GLASGOW travels to CORBY in NORTHAMPTONSHIRE (Corbyn in Corby..really..Lol)…for HIS SPEECH..not some RANDOM then…a more than likely LABOUR PARTY MEMBER….so did card she handed to him also say…” Use this to try and undermine the SNP so the ‘many’ assume poor under SNP and only the ‘few’ will take time to realise I actually grew up under Labour governments…WM and devolved”….

      Oh and also in YOUR Labour party some Labour MP’s abstained in 2015 on Welfare reform and Work Act introduced by Cameron’s Tory party which enabled it to pass….SO LABOUR KINDA HAVE A HAND IN POOR CHILDREN GROWING UP IN POVERTY….so is this Scottish Labour giving you another duff stunt to con Scots Jeremy…see facts and figures ain’t their strong point……

      SCOTTISH woman…POVERTY…aah..see what you’re trying to do there Jeremy…was no one from WALES there to also hand you a card on poverty while they grew up (where your party have been the devolved govt in power since 1999 onwards) or no one from England also to do the same ?

      Give it a rest….we see you….”A KINDER TYPE OF POLITICS” you once said Jeremy….personally I cannot see that is being applied by you….quelle surprise.

      ps. This is a comment on a BLOG to you Jeremy ..not a CARD..and is from a WOMAN from EDINBURGH….who also grew up as a child under Unionist WM governments that included LABOUR where poverty for Scots existed and was NOT eliminated or indeed helped by being a part of your (non) Union or WM controlled Unionist governments.

    206. defo says:

      Sarah Smith?
      Nah,it’d be like dipping yer knob in caustic soda.

      M&B, Nick Robinson earning his crust lying about Eck not answering ?s about a mythical banking exodus, and editing the video to suit.

    207. Dr Jim says:

      @Clapper 57 2:18pm

      Every time Labour open their mouths about poverty anywhere in the UK it always involves the hope that older people have suffered from memory loss and that younger people don’t know what they are

      Tory damage managers

    208. Breeks says:

      Dr Jim says:
      19 August, 2019 at 1:52 pm

      The Electoral commission claims the question for Indyref2 is ambiguous and not an adequate question and that might lead to delays in sanctioning it…

      I don’t think it’s ambiguous in the way they mean, but a YES result delivers a specific mandate, whereas a NO vote delivers ratification of the same Constitutional bourach which we had before. It also enabled people to claim voting No was an abdication of sovereignty, which it wasn’t, but it opens the door for ambiguity right enough.

      Thing is, for a sovereign Nation to vote on whether it should be sovereign is a constitutional dogs breakfast anyway. It’s literally non-sense.

      My preferred question would be “Should the sovereign nation of Scotland withdraw from the Treaty of Union?… I think it keeps it nice and specific, and ratifies and underlines our constitutional integrity whichever way the result goes.

      Before any referendum however, where we leave by our own choice / volition, I believe we have more than adequate grounds to declare the Union void / breached by the unconstitutional actions of Westminster, and have the Union killed off by their actions rather than ours. I think, perhaps wrongly, that would strengthen our hand negotiating the dissolution of the Union and sharing of assets. If it’s “our” decision, there is some liability for costs.

      Personally, I think the current ambiguity about Scotland’s constitutional status is inexcusable at this ‘stage’ in an independence campaign. Most Scots wouldn’t even know they actually were sovereign citizens.

      Know your own constitution. It will make it harder for colonial usurpers to subjugate power that doesn’t belong to them. All politicians take note… Yes, ALL politicians.

    209. Robert Peffers says:

      @gus1940 says: 19 August, 2019 at 1:47 pm:

      … I would like to know what % of those S. of the Border are aware of all the AUOB marches.”

      Don’t know, gus1940 but this may have helped a little to enlighten a few:-

    210. Dr Jim says:

      Lib Dems in Shetland going door to door claiming they’ve delivered all manner of benefits to the Islanders

      How and when did they do that then, they’ve never been in government nor had the power to influence government decisions in Holyrood in any meaningful way

      The people of Shetland have what they have and will have by virtue of a SNP government in Holyrood not by big talk from Liberal Democrats who don’t tell the truth

      Alistair Carmichael the proven liar, to my recollection barely ever mentions Shetland in the House of Commons either but he’ll run up to Shetland this week and lie to them that he does it all the time

      Remember, a judge ruled that he was indeed a reprehensible liar

    211. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. pensions and social inclusion. Why do folk still expect the Tories to be bound by moral reason, given we’ve had almost a decade of ideologically driven austerity?

      The UK can not be considered a pluralist democracy, when Westminster considers itself above international human rights law, and policy formation is driven by far-right economic fundamentalism and xenophobic authoritarianism (see the full-English Brexit).

      Britain is prison, where only the fit survive. Long live Brexitania and social Darwinism.

      Deliberative Democracy
      or Agonistic Pluralism


      This article examines the current debate about the nature of democracy and discusses the main theses of the approach called ‘deliberative democracy’ in its two main versions, the one put forward by John Rawls, and the other one put forward by Jürgen Habermas. While agreeing with them as regards to the need to develop a more of democracy than the one offered by the ‘aggregative’ model, I submit that they do not provide an adequate understanding of the main task of democracy.

      No doubt, by stating that democracy cannot be reduced to a question of procedures to mediate among conflicting interests, deliberative democrats defend a conception of democracy that presents a richer conception of politics. But, albeit in a different way than the view they criticize, their vision is also a rationalist one which leaves aside the crucial role played by ‘passions’ and collective forms of identifications in the field of politics.

      Moreover, in their attempt to reconcile the liberal tradition with the democratic one, deliberative democrats tend to erase the tension that exist between liberalism and democracy and they are therefore unable to come to terms with the conflictual nature of democratic politics. The main thesis that I put forward in this article is that democratic theory needs to acknowledge the ineradicability of antagonism and the impossibility of achieving a fully inclusive rational consensus.

      I argue that a model of democracy in terms of ‘agonistic pluralism’ can help us to better envisage the main challenge facing democratic politics today: how to create democratic forms of identifications that will contribute to mobilize passions towards democratic designs.

    212. Clapper57 says:

      Oh here’s a nice benefit for Scotland being LUMPED in with UKOK…

      “Scotland stripped of measles-free status despite hitting vaccination target for 10 years because UK levels fall for second year”.

      MSM promoting as UK problem….Better Together created so that we can ALL get included in Unionist side’s f**k ups….oh lovely..pooling and sharing eh Tom Watson…

    213. Dr Jim says:

      The Unionist moaners say Scotland is too poor and too wee to be Independent then in the next breath they say the EU will plunder all of Scotland’s wealth that they just said Scotland doesn’t have

      Mibbees they just pass around the one brain cell they have to shout No Surrender

    214. Dr Jim says:

      @Clapper 57 3:02pm

      No measles in Scotland, just measley Unionists

    215. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. illiberal Britain. As folk have recently had their attention drawn to the subject of political economy, here’s some political philosophy. 🙂

      Oxford Studies in Political Philosophy, Volume 3
      The Problem of Equality from a Political Economy Perspective

      This paper explores challenges to the creation of an egalitarian society from what we know about different types of human society across human history. All human beings originally lived in hunter-gatherer bands, which, along with tribal societies, are remarkably egalitarian. Inegalitarian social forms – rank societies and social stratification – are rooted in the following causes: (1) despotic tendencies rooted in human psychology; (2) esteem competition; (3) descent group closure and ingroup opportunity hoarding; (4) inegalitarian ideology; and (5) the increasing scale of societies, administration of which requires layers of hierarchically organized bureaucracy.

      Large-scale social organization can deliver dramatically reduced interpersonal violence and increased prosperity and opportunities. Securing the benefits of scale without oppressive social hierarchy requires the institution of checks and norms against bullies and narcissists, reworking the economy of esteem, ending descent group opportunity hoarding, integrating social groups, promoting egalitarian ideologies, and perfecting democratic practices.

      equality, egalitarianism, social hierarchy, esteem competition, ideology, domination, democracy, social scale

    216. CameronB Brodie says:

      And seeing as British academia appears to be stuffed with yoons, though I know they are only the voices we are allowed to hear.

      Freedom and Equality

      Abstract and Keywords

      Freedom and equality are often viewed as conflicting values. But there are at least three conceptions of freedom – -negative, positive, and republican – and three conceptions of equality – of standing, esteem, and authority.

      Libertarians argue that rights to negative liberty override claims to positive liberty. However, a freedom-based defense of private property rights must favor positive over negative freedom. Furthermore, a regime of full contractual alienability of rights – on the priority of negative over republican freedom – is an unstable basis for a free society.

      To sustain a free society over time, republican liberty must take priority over negative liberty, resulting in a kind of authority egalitarianism. Finally, the chapter discusses how the values of freedom and equality bear on the definition of property rights. The result is a qualified defense of some core features of social democratic orders.

      freedom, equality, property rights, inalienable rights, libertarianism

    217. Artyhetty says:

      re; Clapper57@3.02pm

      Are the Britnats saying that the SNP government have kept measles at bay for the last ten years via an effective vaccination programme? Well blow me down with a feather.


      That is interesting, Britants, ‘Scotland you are too poor to be independent ha ha’, but EU will ‘plunder all of Scotland’s wealth’. Hmm, something doesn’t add up there. Britnats in Scotland seem oblivious to the double speak, and double standards of their masters in London. Propaganda really works, it’s worth all the dark money spent on it by the Britnat gov.

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      The main problem with British politics, is that Tories imagine ethics is next to Middlesex, while British Labour believe ethics is next to Kent. True story.

      Making Liberal Democracy Ethical:
      Aristotle on the Unity of Ethics and Politics


      Contemporary liberal democracy recognizes a fundamental distinction between matters of “public” and “private” domain that amounts to a separation of ethics from politics. Such a distinction is, however, a recent one insofar as the history of political thought is concerned.

      Political and ethical matters can and in fact have been thought of and practiced as a single project. Aristotle is one philosopher who has approached ethics and politics not as two distinct subjects but as a single unified project: the project of living well.

      This essay examines Aristotle’s ethical-political project and engages with contemporary thinkers who have grappled with Aristotle’s political philosophy as a possible remedy for the problems currently confronting liberal democratic politics. It argues that the best remedy for the ills of liberal democracy that arise out of the continued prevalence of relativism in liberal democratic discourse is a re-thinking of liberal education that unites ethical and political considerations. The author contends that Aristotle’s political philosophy offers us a vantage point from which this unity may be perceived and, hopefully, implemented.

    219. gus1940 says:

      Is it not time for Prince Andrew to be presented with a Bottle Of Whisky, a glass and a loaded revolver prior to being ushered into the library.

    220. Clapper57 says:

      @ Artyhetty @ 3.37pm

      Hi Artyhetty…unbelievably…the BritNats are choosing NOT to report on Scotland’s success but UK’s failure…one must obviously conclude tis NHS England and Wales that are failing….Duh…

      Why as if they, the BritNats, would make such a distinction that would see Scotland..nay NHS Scotland… in a positive light….

      BUT or HOWEVER I may be corrected….BBC Rep Scotland might just report on that distinction this evening…….there is always a first time for everything……..

      BUT or HOWEVER I would be willing to bet there will be a ‘BUT’ or a ‘HOWEVER’ in their, the BBC, report somewhere, should they cover it…

      As George Foulkes would say about the SNP ” They’re doing it deliberately”….meanwhile poor kids have to suffer as Toxic Tories more concerned with taking back control of things that were NOT lost in order to LOSE control of things ,such as the above, that need NOT have been lost if they had focused on those things that ARE important ….Tory priorities first I guess…which usually means Wealth over Health.

    221. Socrates MacSporran says:

      gus 1940 Re HRH the Duke of York. That’s not how The Establishment does things with the Royal Family.

      They tend to have unfortunate accidents – maybe they should get his father to drive him home from the next Palace State Banquet.

    222. Frank Gillougley says:

      ”The submission explains this six-month period “is so that campaigners and counting officers have sufficient time to understand, take advice on, receive guidance and generally prepare to comply with the rules once they are in force.”

      OH FFS what about gettin’ the finger out?

    223. Dan says:

      Frank @ 4.21pm

      That’s your link archived.

    224. CameronB Brodie says:

      Talking about “getting the finger out”, the full-English Brexit just shows what political will can achieve, when ethical consideration and the rule-of-law are abandoned. You’ve got to hand it to the New Right, they certainly know how to set about transforming society.

      Time for some neuroethics? Might be of particular interest to FUDs who imagine WOS articulates the voice of the alt-right. Full text.

      Pow(d)er to the People? Voter Manipulation, Legitimacy, and the Relevance of Moral Psychology for Democratic Theory


      What should we do if climate change or global injustice require radical policy changes not supported by the majority of citizens? And what if science shows that the lacking support is largely due to shortcomings in citizens’ individual psychology such as cognitive biases that lead to temporal and geographical parochialism? Could then a plausible case for enhancing the morality of the electorate – even against their will – be made? But can a democratic government manipulate the will of the people without losing democratic legitimacy?

      This paper explores the problems that governmental manipulation of voters pose for democratic legitimacy and the tensions between non-manipulated input and morally acceptable output. These venerable issues of political theory resurface in light of recent suggestions to tackle today’s global mega-problems by Ingmar Persson and Julian Savulescu. They suggest that to avert the looming catastrophe, governments should alter psychological traits of the citizenry through biomedical means, from pharmaceuticals to genetics. However, we argue that a government cannot rule with democratic legitimacy if elected by a will of the people it manipulated before.

      Normatively, conferring power from the governed onto governors is a one-directional relation that is incompatible with manipulation. But while it is tempting to rebut suggestions to morally enhance the people as antithetical to essential ideas of democracy, swift rebuttals tend to overlook the deeper challenge: Majoritarian decision-making may lead to inacceptable outcomes. The dilemma between input and output runs through major works in political theory. Rather than wishfully ignoring the dangers of democracy, democratic theory has to provide answers.

      Manipulation, Moral enhancement, Democracy, Indoctrination, Moral psychology

    225. Old Pete says:

      If we are going to force through the new Scottish Independence referendum then we better get a move on. The British establishment will attempt to block and delay so it will not happen in 2020 or 2021, it is blatantly obvious that they hope the Independence supporting parties will fail to get a majority in the next Scottish parliament.
      So hurry up Nicola, this could well be the last chance in a generation for us to regain our Independence. There is an opportunity here while the UK is in turmoil, now is the time!

    226. twathater says:

      As Breeks says , first and foremost the engerlish electoral commission should have NO SAY on what an indyref question should be , did the EU a union of foreign countries have input to the brexshit question , why should we in Scotland allow input from a foreign country , also I would agree totally that the sovereignty issue should be the question this would highlight and inform people that THEY are indeed sovereign
      I thought that the Scottish government had set up a Scottish electoral commission to oversee elections within Scotland if so why is anything the engerlish commission says even relevant

      Once again are we having to ask permission from our engerlish overlords , just tell them to FO

    227. Dr Jim says:

      I’m not sure that the Electoral Commission has any authority over the question of *The Question* I believe their role is more of a consultative one and what they’re attempting to do is sabre rattle their questionable position as though it’s more important than it is

      They were consulted on the 2014 question and agreed at that time the question was valid and understandable, the same question is being posed now so their position of demanding consultation over wording is a bit redundant one would have thought

      We waant oor place and kep in the loop, sounds more like it
      or maybe they think the FM is going to let slip the date so’s they can report back to head Boris Bumff office

    228. Dan says:

      Is that the same Electoral Commission that couldn’t get its shit together and therefore denied the vote to many in the recent EU Elections, and the same one that screwed up its case against Vote Leave’s campaigning overspend costing the taxpayer large amounts of money and ultimately losing an appeal and ended up paying out 20k to Darren Grimes.
      If it is, maybe they have proved they aren’t fit for the purposes of running electoral processes.

      As twathater states, I’m pretty sure the wording of some Scottish Government document read like there were potentially other alternative organisations that could run electoral processes in Scotland in the future.

    229. Dr Jim says:

      The Scotsman newspaper says Scotland is more racist than England

      Now if that really was the case don’t we think all the Unionist papers would be full of front page stories blaming the SNP for it and citing case after case with the BBC doing documentaries on the plight of people of colour

      Nope, haven’t seen any of that, so more concocted drivel to give the Yoon types more stuff to troll with

      Pathetic excuse for a newspaper

    230. galamcennalath says:

      Just thinking. The day after a so called no-deal Brexit, the relationship between the UK and EU will be as disconnected as the relationship between the EU and ….. where has NO agreements in place whatsoever? ….. North Korea perhaps.

      Have those utter fools who think ‘no deal’ is OK thought any of this through?

    231. Dr Jim says:

      Priti Patel says after Brexit no more freedom of movement and no citizens rights for EU citizens

      Somehow I don’t think threats like that will alter the EU position one iota

      They could return the favour and Brits abroad would have to come flooding back to England en masse making Brexit even worse than it already is, where are you going to put all those *ex pats* Priti, in your garden in tents?

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      The validity of political authority can be established through a consideration of the authority’s relationship to “epistemic justice”, a.k.a. the practice of “strategic particularism”, obvs. 🙂

      Time for some legal theory?

      Beyond Particularism: Remarks on Some Recent Approaches to the Idea of a Universal Political and Legal Order


      Theories of global order are traceable back to two main paradigms, particularism and universalism, the first of them asserting that true global order is a chimaera, the second affirming that a worldwide political and legal system securing peace and human rights protection is both desirable and feasible.

      Against this background, the article analyses some recent contributions to the question of the conditions for the establishment of a worldwide system guaranteeing peaceful and cooperative interaction. The authors of the books under review share the commitment to the universalistic view, but substantiate it by resorting to distinct theoretical presuppositions. By outlining the different frameworks, the article presents the books being discussed as inspiring inputs on the way to the renewal of universalism at the beginning of the 21st century.

    233. CameronB Brodie says:

      The practice of “strategic particularism” is impossible in the absence of justice. Justice perishes when truth is abandoned in favoure of irrational prejudice (see the full-English Brexit).

      Truth, Reason and Justice: Epistemology and Politics
      in Evidence Discourse

    234. defo says:

      Is that a whiff of false flag coming from over the water?

    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      The world is watching Scotland and most are hoping we don’t bottle it again. Allowing England to drag Scotland out of the EU, undermines the principle of universal human rights, globally.

      International Law and Justice Working Papers

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      And some applied strategic particularism, to highlight just how fucked Britain is.

      Government Services Under Democracy
      How Particularism Drives Public (and Private) Goods Provision

    237. Dr Jim says:

      So it looks like I was correct, the Electoral Commission want the proposed date of the Indyref they say so they can decide whether the question is suitable to the time limitations

      Guff Twaddle and Mince in great quantities there

      The Unionists don’t want a referendum, Meh, but if we have to have one they want to be involved in the question too

      Even bigger Guff Twaddle and Mince

      All they want is the definite date so’s they can tailor their hate and fear campaign and work out how much they’ve got to spend on it to make it the most effective they can

      Derek Mackay says Aye sure Josie sure sure and we’ll gae yeez a head start as well eh jist so’s it’s fair tae you eh

      He might have ended that sentence with *Baws*

    238. gus1940 says:

      Today’s metropolitan blats are full of articles on the disgusting life of Lord Louis Mountbatten.

      One example given is his leading part in the notorious plans for a coup to oust the Wilson Government in 1968.

      The ("Tractor" - Ed)ous conspirators comprised leading lights in the Aristocracy, Armed Forces, Businessmen and other assorted establishment figures.

      Can anybody provide a list of said individuals?

    239. Dan says:

      @defo at 6.17pm

      Either way it is an ominous development.
      Looks like Jason Michael had concerns a few days ago. (Whether that was over and above baseline level of concern I don’t know).

      @Dr Jim at 5.54pm

      Re. Ending free movement and Ireland.

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT. Violent assaults are not acceptable political conduct, they indicate a failure in politics. However, @OwenJones84 has been attacking moral, scientific and legal reason for some time now, for his own political gain.

    241. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      19 August, 2019 at 5:51 pm
      Just thinking. The day after a so called no-deal Brexit, the relationship between the UK and EU will be as disconnected as the relationship between the EU and ….. where has NO agreements in place whatsoever? ….. North Korea perhaps.

      Have those utter fools who think ‘no deal’ is OK thought any of this through?

      I think that’s a firm No.

      However, I would also ask a very similar question of those who are ambivalent about Scotland’s reluctant acquiescence to actually be Brexited, and look to rejoin Europe at some later date after a successful Indy Ref, and a second EuroRef too I presume.

      I wish it was massively understood that staying in Europe by the Constitutional Sovereignty route is, by far, the much, much safer option than supine capitulation and allowing Scotland to be Brexited in order to use the beastly calamity of it all as fuel and grievance for an IndyRef at some later date.

      Once out of Europe, we will no longer have the EU and ECJ at our backs, but we will have Westminster with it’s tail up, having just successfully blagged it’s way past the obstacle of Scottish Sovereignty. While we are all stunned and in a state of shock, all manner of US Trade Deal inspired deregulation and rewriting of legislation will be rushed through, perhaps even deliberately rushed through to facilitate the quick sale of assets, and expressly bring about divergence between the EU and UK, so that Scotland’s re-entry negotiations are not the automatic formality we all hope, but fraught with difficulties.

      Folks seem mighty sanguine about a cosy Referendum in 2020, but it will take me until at least 2030 to calm down after our needless sell out and gutless abdication of Sovereignty. I hope the Wings Party is up and running, but I’ll still have a real dilemma who’ll get my second preference vote.

      I forget who made the quip, but somebody said Brexit was like jumping off a cliff and knitting your parachute on the way down. Our Sovereignty is Scotland’s “Get out of Jail Free” card. We won’t need a knitted parachute because we won’t be stepping off the cliff in the first place. Heads will roll if we fk it up and end up Brexited.

    242. naina tal says:

      Old Pete at 4.55 said:
      “The British establishment will attempt to block and delay so it will not happen in 2020 or 2021, it is blatantly obvious that they hope the Independence supporting parties will fail to get a majority in the next Scottish parliament.”
      Don’t think they “hope” at all. I don’t think we’ll ever again see free and fair elections in this UKOK bourach, They fully intend to prevaricate and delay any referendum until Scotland’s GE when magically Unionist parties together will have a majority and can vote Holyrood out of existence. That’s my opinion anyway!

    243. CameronB Brodie says:

      One to assist your re-edumication, wokeboy.

      Gender Justice, Citizenship and Development ?An Introduction

      Ten years after the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing there is considerable interest among gender advocates and development institutions in reviewing how far the project of gender equality has progressed. According to a major review by the UN, the answers are not straightforward and at best ambiguous (UNRISD/UN 2005). Whereas there have been notable gains for women during this period, gender inequalities persist and today there is a less favourable economic and political environment for promoting equality than that which existed ten years ago.

      The anniversary of the Beijing conference has also led to reassessment of gender mainstreaming as the main strategy for promoting equality and advancing women’s positions in and through development.1 Generally speaking, international experience with gender mainstreaming has not been positive. Despite some important advances, ‘feminists’ aspirations for social transformation’ remain unfulfilled (Cornwall et al. 2004: 1). For some, the failure of gender mainstreaming initiatives stems from its de-politicization—it has moved from being a process of transformation to an end in itself pursued with solely instrumentalist intent.

      A central problem has been the difficulty of finding a fit between the technical project of mainstreaming gender equality in policy, programme and projects, and the political project of challenging inequality and promoting women’s rights. A decade of ‘gender mainstreaming’ seems to have blurred the distinctive focus on transforming unequal power relations between the genders developed by both national and transnational women’s movements….,%20citizenship%20and%20development%20%5BEN%5D.doc

    244. ahundredthidiot says:

      The UK regime has now adopted a simple strategy. Sideline, ignore, fail to report on anything Scottish. Re-brand anything that cannot be ignored – as British. Run down the clock by extending Brexit.

      If the Regime can do this for two years – We are finished. They know this. And so long as We, the SNP and the Yes Movement understand this, then we can get our houses in order.

      Timing, of course, is everything. I remain confident that our FM will know when is best to strike.

      No pressure Nic…..

    245. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I don’t know where that question-mark came from.

      The problem with ‘internationalist socialist’, such as @OwenJones84, is they are nothing of the kind. Though they will no doubt deny this is the case, they are actually narrow minded, parochial, totalitarians.


    246. ahundredthidiot says:


      I like to hear your opinion, I do, but can you not, for the love of God, do a Nana style link thing to your preferred academia!

    247. Mac says:

      Two things on my mind right now….

      Electoral Commission
      1. Just how independent is the Electoral Commission? And did the SNP have any say in the membership of same? Seems they have offices in London, Cardiff and Belfast?

      Of course it claims impartiality but it is staffed by Lords, ExDiplomats and Civil Servants. (Mostly establishment figures)

      It might be prudent to examine them now, prior to their involvement in Indy2

      There will be increased pressure on all quasi- government bodies to delay, obstruct and generally undermine any progress to Indy2.

      Postal Votes
      2. The evidence shows that Postal Votes are subject to abuse. Labour specifically and form for ‘beating the polls’ in conjunction with a significant increase in Postal Votes. There are many smoking guns’ on Postal votes.. including one candidate releasing postal vote results on twitter before the voting. (Kerry McCarthy – Bristol) and a Fourfold increase in Labour Postal voting in Kirkcaldy.. where the voters roll went missing!

      Then we have the shenanigans of our own Ruthie, who had ‘advanced knowledge’ but was never taken to task over it.

      I am of the view that at least one result in Indy Ref 1 went against the polls that showed a significant Yes majority, and this was down to Postal Votes.

      It’s probably prudent that we start to consider the risks posed by postal votes in Indy2 and think about how we address them.

    248. Confused says:

      re: Lord Loopy MountBottom …

      The book “Smear” by Stephen Dorril is a fascinating account of the Wilson years and his tumultuous battles with the UK deep state.

      I have mentioned some aspects of it as exemplary lessons for us.

      Wilson -outsmarted- the lot of them, basically – and he used secret deals with the Americans to outflank them – alas, one piece of “collateral damage” was the Chagos Islands becoming a US base.

      – an understanding of those times is a masterclass in realpolitik.

      Alex Salmond is incidentally, a Wilson fan, Sturgeon – not to my knowledge.

      The turnabout by Mountbatten – according to the book – was down to the Chief Scientific Adviser – Lord “Solly” Zuckerman, who told him

      “have nothing to do with it, Louis” – and walked out.

    249. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The psychopathic wanker gets paid per post, ahundredthidoit, so that’s not going to happen.

    250. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Rev Stu interviewed on RT:-

      Mind and unmute the audio!

    251. CameronB Brodie says:

      This stuff obviously bores the tits of you, but this is how nations obtain liberty. Through understanding the law and stuff. I feel that posting here maximizes the chance that folk might learn something. Why would folk look me out?

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      So where’s your evidence that your not simply a prejudice wank?

    253. Mac says:

      Breeks @7:02

      Great comment. Totally agree.

      A No-deal is a cliff edge, exactly. It’s an overnight change. Simplest example, if you are in an EU country as a permanent resident, your British Driving licence is no longer valid for driving there. Overnight. No, grace period or extension or conversion.

      There is an argument that we’d be better off with a General Election and the SNP to up the ante on the mandate that we already hold. It would be better than a late referendum under a Brexited UK.

    254. Hamish100 says:


      It seems to me that behind the scenes the Commissioners have been working behind the scenes plotting. Who did they discuss this with ? SoSS? Tories, labour.

      There is a major malodour coming from this group. The stench of a stich-up.

      They should be reminded the people of Scotland are sovereign not appointed wannabes.

    255. Mac says:

      @CBB 0718


      Tell us something about hegemony as related to the universality of international law


    256. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Comments I’ve just picked up on Facebook, RE the Edinburgh march in October…

      “Gary J Caesar! Kelly Yeh it’s in reverse starts Holyrood Park to the Meadows has been approved”

      “Joanne Burrows Omg are we going upwards ?? poor Barry’s back will be broken shoving me”

      “Gary J Caesar! Kelly Joanne Burrows was my first thought think we’ll ha e to have another start point further up the mile for wheelchairs”

    257. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m certainly not suggesting I know it all but my training kind of makes me a bit of a ‘decolonisation technician’. I just though folk might find that helpful.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      I made sure to included a concern for “moral legal practice”. 😉

      International Law in Times of Hegemony: Unequal Power
      and the Shaping of the International Legal Order

    259. Brian Lucey says:

      I’m having difficulty conceptualizing how the new hardline immigration policy of the UK will be consistent with no hard border.

      :ets assume for the moment that UK adopts the indicated policy of no freedom of movement for work, and 90 day visa free travel for EU citizens.

      It’s November 1 and a car is driving from Dundalk to Newry. In it we have a mixture of Irish and EU citizens. How can the UK authorities tell whether or not some have already spent more than 90 days without checking at or near the border?

      If they decide not to implement checks on work or on visits then they are in effect saying the immigraion and labour market of the UK is fragmented. If they do check they have to do it at the border, or at the air/ports. The former will inflame the nationalists and the Irish government, the latter the Unionists.

      What am I missing here?

      Is the endgame to get to a position of not needing DUP support and then in effect having some special status for NI (as was the original backstop)?

      Or do they plan to scrap the CTA and to hell with the consequences for NI?

    260. ben madigan says:

      @ Mac who mentioned the Electoral Commission and Postal Votes
      I agree both need to be sorted before IndyRef2
      I am worried about this story of postponing IndyRef2 for up to 9-12 months after the Scottish parliament legislation is in place (said to be around Dec 2019) as the Electoral Commission decides what they want to do.

      Several other precautions need to be taken to ensure a “fair” return:
      International observers,beside party/movement reps, preferably in all polling stations;

      Erect polling stations in hospitals, nursing homes, old age homes etc – besides the usual places to help reduce postal votes

      Count votes and certify tally in each polling station;

      Check tallies in the counting station;

      Hold exit polls.

      I am sure many Wingers can think of other precautions they would like to see in place to ensure a “fair” vote

    261. CameronB Brodie says:

      One thing that folk are apt to forget, is that legal human rights are not facts, neither are they spoken from above or written in stone. They are the accommodation of pluralistic reason and a shared set of normative values that have been accepted as objective truth. Their future is uncertain and under extreme economic and political pressure right now. It might help if folk have in insight into this, if they are in anyway concerned about liberty and equality.

      New Approaches to International Law: The History of a Project

    262. Bob Mack says:

      @Gus 1940,

      The leading figures were Mount batten, Cecil King the then main figure in Mirror newsgroup papers and a guy called Cudlipp who I believe was Chief Science Officer of the UK.
      Investigations were very hush hush, but Lady Falkender wrote that she and Wilson were very aware of something going on behind the scenes.

      She and Wilson actually discussed how the coup would unfold.

      The plot failed because some figures thought it beyond treachery to participate. Only 4 individuals were ever named indirectly ,but obviously elements of the Army ,Navy and Civil Service were clearly involved.

    263. David says:

      Read in the Sunday paper Peterloo when they charged the troopers targeted the women .
      And why are the electoral commission suddenly questioning the 2014 indy question yes no was easy to understand .
      Who referred this to them Annie Wells on tv .
      I rest my case

    264. defo says:

      Trust THAT lot to regulate our referendum Hamish?
      No way, or the fix will be in!

    265. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clapper57 says: 19 August, 2019 at 3:02 pm:

      ” … lovely..pooling and sharing eh Tom Watson…”

      Oh! It’s pooling and sharing right enough it’s just that they can’t spell. They pool pull Scotland’s wealth down to London and we have no option than to share it with them.

    266. Ahundredthidiot says:


      I have some advice for you….

    267. Ahundredthidiot says:


      I hear what you are saying, but I learned more from a 3 minute record than I ever learned in school.

      My preferred philosopher said that and it rings with me, so please forgive my attitude, but links without the spiel are fine.

    268. Golfnut says:

      I suspect this crap from the times is all about winding up the Indy movement. They know well enough how frustrated we are at the delays on calling indyref, so they are adding to it, all to be directed at the FM in particular. I noted one of the headlines was ‘ blow ‘ for Sturgeon, how many times have we heard that bollocks.

    269. CameronB Brodie says:

      Horses for courses. Sometimes the reality of events falls within the scope of my understanding. I hear you and will do my best not to overdo things. 😉

    270. Daisy Walker says:

      If we work back from the 31/10/19 – Brexit Day unless we actively stop it with some act of parliament.

      In order to change the party in power at Westminster – will require a Vote of No Confidence, if one is voted through, Jeremy will have 14 days to attempt to form an alternative government (I’m not putting any bets on him succeeding).

      Whether he does, or does not – the legislation is unclear as to who actually governs within that 14 day period (and who could or would negotiate with the EU for us).

      If there is no Government of National Unity (and if the SNP think any promise for a S30 agreement made by any or all of the attending parties in that senario will be kept they’re seriously deluded) then a GE is called.

      If then, a GE is called, it requires a minimum of 25 working days, before election time.

      I had a quick look at the calendar (and I may be a day or 2 out, so don’t hang me) but counting back 25 working days and adding14 days on top, it looks like the very last chance of calling a GE before 31/10 is the 13th of September.

      And WM parliament comes back from its holidays on 4th or 5th September.

      During a GE, parliament is prorogued – and there are no sitting MP’s.

      A rudderless shit is the term that comes to mind (correct spelling).

      If however, you’re hoping that somehow, a majority of MP’s can be persuaded to call an emergency referendum (Peoples Vote) – from what I can glean from Political Parties, Elections and Referendum Act 2000, they also require an initial 14 day admin set up period, followed by minimum of 28 day for referendum date, maximum 6 months.

      If anyone is hoping for a GE before Brexit/No Deal disaster day – I admire your optimism.

      Brexit never made any sense, on the basis of the publicised reasons given… and to risk losing the cash cow of Scotland just after 2014 – madness.

      Brexit makes perfect sense if you are looking to save the establisment’s blushes about to be disclosed by the Tax Haven legislation, its accumulated wealth from the days of empire, if your prepared to make substantial sums ruining the entire economy in order to sell of the NHS and all our other public services, and most importantly, if you are ruthless enough to use the ensuing chaos as an excuse to shut down Holyrood and grab back all the parliamentary power devolution provides.

      However, we are not without a parliament yet, a democratic vote for staying in the EU, and a voted msp majority for another indy ref. The people of Scotland are Sovereign, the people of Scotland are Sovereign, the people of Scotland are Sovereign.

      I wonder if our SNP reps have a plan to hand.

      If or when a GE is called, there will be no WM parliament to object to any form of Referendum we chose to hold, and it is an emergency after all.

      One last thought, WM’s own reports show the majority of job losses will hit round about December time, giving them, in their own words a. ‘window of opportunity’ for a GE. Evil Bastards.

    271. Lochside says:

      Electoral Commission wants to delay over wording of question on Ref?; from 31st of October draconian controls over EU citizens movement?…how about from the same date ‘Emergency powers’ instituted preventing any referenda aimed to ‘undermine’ the ‘precious union’?…after all if they think they can prorogue Westminster, they will have no problem mothballing Hollyrood along with Stormont. And they have been working on a new written constitution, which will enshrine their sovereignty over us, you can bet on that!

      Unless our SG makes a legal move in the ECJ or to the UN, we will disappear under the heel of ENGTORY fascism. NS wants the world to recognise our ‘case’..well how can you do that whenn we remain a region of a unitary state? As Breeks and others including me, have said for years why has our Sovereign status not been the central plank of SNP policy?

      If we are not recognised as an equal dissenting partner of the UK officially internationally, by the 31st of October, we are left with a certain refusal of a S30 and then the only option of a REF being characterised as UDI and we are then relegated to CATALAN status with the same danger of a repressive state now gearing up to use troops on its population in England ,never mind us.

      Our ‘friends’ in Europe may like us a lot, but they won’t recognise us officially until we seize the power to govern ourselves now.

    272. geeo says:

      Ahundredthidiot says:

      19 August, 2019 at 9:19 pm

      “I learned more from a 3 minute record than I ever learned in school”.

      Bruce Springsteen – No Surrender ?

    273. manandboy says:

      Read this article if you will, but be prepared to find your hopes for the future very chilled indeed.

      Remaining in the EU as an independent member country is nothing other than imperative. The alternative is to stick your head in the mouth of a hungry great white shark, aka the United States of America.

      “Britain after Brexit: welcome to the vulture restaurant
      US business will asset-strip the UK, but that’s not all: the Pentagon will find the little-known fragments of the British empire very useful.”

    274. Clapper57 says:

      Dr Jim says:
      19 August, 2019 at 5:54 pm

      “Priti Patel says after Brexit no more freedom of movement and no citizens rights for EU citizens

      Somehow I don’t think threats like that will alter the EU position one iota”

      Hi Dr Jim, is that the same Priti Patel that once used a business analogy on BBC Question Time when asked about plans re Brexit negotiations and said that ” one never shows one’s cards before a negotiation”…so playing a card game Priti.

      Guess with this new ‘game’ she thinks that it’s ‘A’ okay to play … is blackmail ( game invented by Tories endorsed by C**ts) …so we’ve had chicken…we’ve had a who blinks first (game linked to chicken)….so when will we get Hide and seek…Rock Paper Scissors…Blind Mans Bluff…Tag ( You’re it )…Snap…Sardines…Tug of war….I Spy…Truth or Dare…or there is actually a game called Kick the Can…now you can play that game as rules of the actual game dictates…OR…take it as literal i.e. as in ‘Kick the can’ down the road……..i.e. extend article 50…Corbyn and Remain MP’s could play that game which would leave the SNP to organise their own GAME plan for Independence….where winner ( Scotland) takes all…Lol

      Meanwhile in a place called Humane…not somewhere Priti familiar with… there are actual human beings lives being f**ked around just so that Priti and her self centered money grabbing friends can get their own way…and get one over on the EU…we wants to win so we will win…No Deal was really always the only game in town for Priti and her rabid Brexit mob.

      AND….SO THAT IS WHY THE EU SHOULD NOT CONCEDE ANYTHING TO UKOK CAUSE GIVE THEM AN INCH AND THEY WILL MOST CERTAINLY TAKE A MILE…further down the negotiation road…perhaps the EU should just let them, the Brexit Tories, continue playing Solitaire….they have almost used up all of their cards now anyway….the only one left for them, the Brexiteers, to play is WAR GAMES…..

      As to those noble ‘Brits’ abroad or as the ‘Brits’ here like to call them Ex Pats…that is THE peeps from UKOK doing the foreigners a favour by living in their foreign country…well Priti and her friends care not a jot or give not a damn ABOUT THEM….cause like they CHOSE to live abroad so in Priti’s head their like collaborators and almost foreign themselves…so Duh!

      Priti and Bojo take no prisoners where Brexit is concerned but they are not averse to holding Scotland hostage in their toxic Brexit Yooniverse…well I guess as far as Scotland is concerned…it’s game on….as to the EU Nationals “Now is probably the time” to realise you were always going to be played as the pawns in the Tory Brexit chess game…Daft Tories think they have checkmate but actually have stalemate…Lol

      Solidarity with our EU friends who live in Scotland ( and rest of UKnotOK).

    275. Patrick Roden says:

      They control Gordon Brown. They’ve got stuff on him. Or so I have been told by some folk who worked with him.

      Google it!

      (the rumour) involves an abused down syndrome girl and her mother, who were so scared about what started to happened to them when they blew the whistle, that they left Scotland and re-located to a small village in England…

      Only for someone to fire a bullet through their window during the night, as a warning!

      The police apparently said that ‘nothing like this has ever happened in this village before’

    276. Clapper57 says:


      It’s my birthday tomorrow….mentally I am 7…but like to think an above average intelligent 7 year old….Lol

      Do NOT ask my physical age…let’s just say I am ‘past the’ age of caring but yet..’past it’….Lol…debatable that though….Lol

    277. McDuff says:

      lochside 9.44

      Exactly so.

    278. Heart of Galloway says:

      Frank Gilloughly@4.21pm.

      There are sinister undertones to this and red warning signals should be flashing for the Scottish Government.

      I said some weeks back that the Electoral Commission should be allowed nowhere near IndyRef2 on the grounds that a) they are fecking hopeless as a supposed watchdog and b) will NOT be impartial should the mistake be made of handing them any role of overseeing the referendum.

      And lo and behold now we are told asking the SAME QUESTION is not on and there should be at least nine months between the ScotGov passing its Referendum Act and polling day. Aye! Richt! as oor ain RP would say.

      The EC already has form in turning a blind eye to BT overspending in 2014, to Carmichael’s lies, to Jo ‘fragrant’ Swinson’s ahem* creative expensive filing in doing over John Nicolson in 2017.

      They also had to be dragged screaming and kicking by Jo Maugham to investigate Vote Leave’s blatant fiddling – – then fecked up the so-called investigation at a cost of 500 grand to the taxpayer.

      We forget at our cost that the EC is an arm of the British State and when the chips are down will act accordingly.

      We may well need international/EU scrutineers to ensure a true-run contest and similar scrutiny should be applied to the electoral register and the voting process.

      These safeguards will be needed to avoid the danger – perceived or real – of the ballot being compromised.

      Otherwise, “Scotland’s right to choose” is in danger of being compromised by malign forces whose primary aim is to knock back the poll to beyond 2021 and reduce the ‘cast-iron mandate’ to paper tiger status.

      Failing that, they will do all in their power to tinker with the question and the electoral process to Scotland’s disadvantage with the aim of preserving ‘the precious union’.

      And the question? “Should Scotland be an independent country”. The precedent has been set.

    279. Col.Blimp IV says:

      If the all those predictions about the impending Brexit inspired apocalypse are anywhere near accurate, it is high time that we cobble together an army of Citizen Wardens.

      We will need someone to design a suitable badge/hat/armband for them to wear and 50,000-2,000,000 copies of an update of The Declaration of Arbroath to be signed, The wings stall at the AUOB marches can be re-purposed as a recruiting station.

      Hop to it chaps, we have the EU border to secure and several ports and airports to seize control of, most of the civilian Cops will fall into line but I expect the Scottish element of the former British Army will be far from home or locked up in their barracks when the time comes.

      If we don’t act now, I am afraid the Revolution may be commandeered by ill disciplined hoards of hot heads egged on by Anarchists, throwing bricks and petrol bombs at whatever takes their fancy.


    280. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, re. safeguarding democracy. Full text. 😉

      Safeguarding Democracy: Powersharing and Democratic Survival

    281. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was a bit sharp of the block there, as this source might have had more impact. And this comment is a bit of ethical pragmatism, as well as an example of communication theory in practice. 😉

      Safeguarding Democracy: Powersharing and Democratic Survival

    282. manandboy says:

      A reminder of the immediate and disturbing consequences of a No Deal Brexit. But are No voters in Scotland worried? Nah!

      “Pause here to reprise the Yellowhammer analysis: ports chaos for three months and then only restored to 50% of their function; diabetics and children with cancer not guaranteed their drugs; no chemicals to treat the water supply; fresh food shortages; food riots; sterling plunging and banks disrupted; two refineries to possibly close, accompanied by strikes and fuel shortages; civil unrest around Ireland’s border before long; Gibraltar’s 15,000 workers delayed for hours daily at the border; embassies besieged by expat visa and passport worries; clashes at sea with our 12 vessels unable to police UK waters; care homes closing within months – and a lot more. Add to that the outrages which will be caused by Priti Patel’s hostile Home Office closing the border to Europeans on the stroke of midnight on 31 October: expect children separated from parents; doctors and nurses barred from returning to work; mayhem and scandal across Europe at our brutal behaviour.”

    283. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s what the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance has to say on the matter of safe-guarding democracy.

      Safeguarding democracy is important and every small act you make matters

      Up until 2017, analysis and commentary on democracy’s decline pervaded the news. The Economist Intelligence Unit’s Democracy Index report pointed out that in 2016, 70 democracies were in decline. In the book, The Retreat of Western Liberalism, Financial Times columnist, Edward Luce, argues that “Western democracy is not yet dead, but it is far closer to collapse than we may wish to believe”. Georgetown University’s Jason Brennan, in his book, Against Democracy, qualifies that voter ignorance is one of the major pitfalls of modern democracy and this negatively affects democracy’s effectiveness as a system of government….

    284. Dan says:

      @manandboy at 11:02 pm

      Archived link.

      @manandboy at 11.19pm

      Archived link.

      C’mon folks, if you can copy and paste a link into a comment, you can archive it. Stop giving direct links and giving these papers traffic.

      Check url to see if it has previously been saved, if not save it and grab the url for the archived page. Rocket science it ain’t.

    285. Ruglonian says:

      *Wings stall info*

      A big thanks to everyone who supported the Wings stall at Aberdeen on Saturday: whether it was by volunteering to help with the set up or running, with your generous donations that ensure our little promotional operation is self-funding, or the locals that gave us such a warm welcome – it was all very much appreciated 🙂

      Special mentions:
      – Odet, folk were so chuffed with your calligraphy, it made their day!
      – Tartanpigsy, cheers for the stickers, and all the best of luck for your excellent Yes flag fundraiser.
      – Dan, thanks so much for your offer of help when we head up to your area for the Perth rally. Keep us posted on your local group’s arrangements and we’ll fit our plans around them!

      The Wings stall’s next outings will be at the Forward As One rally in Dunfermline on 31/8, the AUOB Perth rally on 7/9, Hope Over Fear’s George Square Glasgow rally on 21/9, then the big one in Edinburgh on 5/10.

      If anyone knows of any other events that they think we should attend then, as usual, just leave me a wee message on O/T – same goes for anybody that can offer their availability on a specific day, as this makes planning easier.

      (btw, folk were really positive about the Wings Party proposition on Saturday – they are generally happy that the debate has widened understanding of the D’hondt system, and that it may have increased pressure on the ScotGov to ensure use of the mandate before 2021, so all good!)

    286. Daisy Walker says:

      The Electoral Commission high heid yins are selected by the Crown.

      Boris will not go for a GE before 31/10/19.

      There will be no new ‘deal’ negotiated with the EU. Boris will blame them for hard brexit and aim for a GE before December and the majority of job cuts.

      He’ll look to neutralise Hollyrood immediately after 31/10… and without the EU membership, there will be very little we can do to prevent it.

      We could pin all out hopes on a GE and that the SNP will make it a de facto vote on indy…. but under a state of emergency GE’s can be cancelled.

      Anyone out there with a plan? A people’s plan, a yes plan, at this point even a Baldrick plan would be worth contemplating.

    287. Joe says:

      Just skimmed through pro indy twitter and i must say the hypocracy is mind blowing. During indy ref ‘If Scotland has to leave EU for a time then no sweat’. Brexit however and ‘The UK is doooooooooomed’. Honestly, its fucking disgusting. Hypocrisy is rank, even from Scottish nationalists

    288. manandboy says:

      Mea culpa, Dan, and thanks for the reminder. Cheers

    289. defo says:

      Hypocracy ?, Hypocrisy ?, make yer mind up Joe.

      You’ll need to try much harder for a bite pal.

    290. Dr Jim says:

      Sure Josie sure, hypocrisy sure Josie

    291. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Shall we call it SOT for brevity? Spot a troll.

    292. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Patrick Roden at 10.07
      No.That is certainly not it.

    293. Col.Blimp IV says:

      I’ve got the badges cracked … Three onerlayed circles, like the French Revolution job.

      The big one at the back- a Saltire

      Next Yellow

      With a Red centre

      Representing Scotland and the Sovereignty of the People.

      Pin it on your lapel or hat, strap it around your arm (or thigh) with, elastic you could even paint it on the side of your vehicle or boat or plane for that matter.

      Vive la Revolution … does anyone know where I can buy a cheap guillotine?

      … for smart-arses that chip in with a Treasure of the Sierra Madre quote!

    294. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Willie Macrae was Mountbatten’s aide de camp when Lord Louis was Viceroy of India which rather suggests that Willie had an awful lot of dangerous information.

    295. Hamish100 says:



      Yip you are. Although I would spell it different!

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      By conflating Scotland’s self-determination with the full-English Brexit, you highlight you’re own lack of honesty. Or perhaps your rhetoric is shaped by ignorance? Time for some constitutional legal theory?

      The Paradox of Constitutionalism: Constituent Power and Constitutional Form

    297. James Barr Gardner says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      19 August, 2019

      Brexit makes perfect sense if you are looking to save the establisment’s blushes about to be disclosed by the Tax Haven legislation, its accumulated wealth from the days of empire, if your prepared to make substantial sums ruining the entire economy in order to sell of the NHS and all our other public services, and most importantly, if you are ruthless enough to use the ensuing chaos.

      BREXSHIT makes perfect sense for the London Tory so called ruling class when you look at the demographics for Scotland and Northern Ireland – death rates of older unionist voters versus the incoming young voters, within 5 years Scottish Independence would be a walk in likewise a Unified Ireland, and the Established know this damn fine well.

      This is the last throw of the dice for this old empire well beyond it’s sell by date. It’s now all or nothing now for them. Hence the urgency to abolish European civil rights and after 31st October the Devolved Parliaments will scrapped followed by direct rule from Westminster, game over!

      Too many folk unfortunately are sleep walking towards this abyss, it will soon be too late for them to make a real difference, the media are complicit in their deceptions along with the BBC to the Scottish People.

      Without Scottish oil and taxes the London Con will be exposed to the World for what it is as a fraud, the greed of the home counties set can never be exposed to this embarrassment, they will fight tooth and nail to hang on to their ill gotten gains which they have accumulated over the centuries.

      The Empire is over, long may it stay that way. People of Scotland ensure that it, is use your voice and your vote ! End this farce of a Union now and let Scotland and it’s Peoples Prosper, give the young folk a real future. Scotland is not a colony, a region or a cash cow it is a Country and the People are Sovereign.

    298. Jiggery Pokery says:

      If the simple yes / no question employed last time round is no longer deemed a fair one by the EC, surely that nullifies the 2014 result as unsafe and we need a re-run ASAP. Just saying

    299. Confused says:

      on today’s electoral commission bullshit – my spider senses are tingling –

      The submission explains this six-month period “is so that campaigners and counting officers have sufficient time to understand, take advice on, receive guidance and generally prepare to comply with the rules once they are in force.

      – when I run this thru the CynicalTranslator9000, I get –

      the 6 months is to give us time to work out how to rig it again, since you feckers are onto the postal vote shenanigans

    300. Still Positive says:

      James Barr Gardner @1.30

      Well said.

    301. Breeks says:

      Lochside says:
      19 August, 2019 at 9:44 pm

      ….Unless our SG makes a legal move in the ECJ or to the UN, we will disappear under the heel of ENGTORY fascism. ….

      Can’t believe I even have to make the suggestion, but do we really have to instigate a legal challenge against the Scottish Government because it steadfastly refuses to instigate a legal challenge against Scotland’s unconstitutional colonial subjugation? The absolute shame on them if we do… Challenging our own sodding government to recognise the sovereignty in our own Constitution.

      What the fk did we elect??? What in God’s name is wrong with them???

      Can we even have a constructive discussion on the possible formats and composition of independent (small ‘i’) bodies who can initiate legal challenges if our formally elected representatives haven’t got the courage? Time is dreadfully short already. It will likely need crowd funding too…

    302. Breeks says:

      “A Borders gamekeeper who killed a range of wildlife in what the Scottish SPCA described as a “despicable case” has been sentenced in court. Alan Wilson, 61, of Duns….”

      200 hours Community service. Shame on you Jedburgh Sheriff Court. You turn my stomach as much as he does.

      Well no, that’s a lie, but you get the point.

    303. Effijy says:

      The Fool English Brexit.

      English White Supremest’s

      English Empire strikes Mac

      National Affront


    304. Robert Louis says:

      So now it is very, very clear, that the ‘Electoral commission’ is a sham. It simply cannot be trusted. It is, as Craig Murray, points out on his blog, as untrustworth in Scotland, as the lying manipulative BBC scum.

      This is why the Scotgov need to stop pandering to England’s ‘rules’. Did they think London would play fair? Of course not.

      Many already saw the electoral commission for what it truly was, a political tool of westminster.

      The forthcoming independence referendum NEEDS EU and other international observers, because London has just shown its hand, and we now know absolutely for sure, that pandering to London made-up ‘rules, and so-called ‘conventions’, will NEVER work.

      And the question will be, as previously APPROVED by the so-called ‘electoral commission’, should Scotland be an independent country.

      Their is a fight coming. Westminster will do everything to stop Scottish democracy and restoration of independence. And I do mean, everything. Just like they did in every other colony, and in Ireland.

    305. manandboy says:

      Another day of the heavy rain known as propaganda.

      This is propaganda in action. The subliminal message contained in this carefully chosen image, has registered in your mind, whether you realise what is being done here or not. Your view of this man is constantly being formed by this means. There is a name for this – Brainwashing.

      The purpose of this particular image of Jeremy Corbyn, is to ‘persuade’ you, without you knowing, that this man is unsuited to be the Prime Minister of the UK, because he is ‘not up to the job’.

    306. Dr Jim says:

      Todays news

      Demands of the First Minister that she remove sugar and salt from food to save our children from obesity

      Named person scheme risks nanny state

      Our children need more exercise to save them from obesity

      FM says more sport in schools

      Teachers overworked by nanny state

      FM cures cancer

      FM makes doctors unemployed

      FM closes BBC …..Yaay! some bloody peace from incessant drivel

    307. Dave Robb says:

      The proposal from a so-called “independent” think tank Centre for Social Justice to raise the pension age to 70 and then 75 is appalling. It is only possible to find this idea acceptable if you are one of those for whom the state pension is a nice little extra on top of what you’ve got, and for whom work is not dependent on physical well-being.

      Among its members are:-

      Ian Duncan-Smith – co-founder, independently wealthy Tory MP, stays in 13 bedroom house on father-in-law’s estate. Responsible for the bedroom tax, trying to force ill and disabled people to work for benefits, breaches of UK and International law in terms of legislative proposals, including retrospective legislation on benefits.
      Tim Montgomerie – co-founder, former editor of “Conservative Home”, “most influential current Tory thinker”.
      Catmila Batmanghelidjh – forced to step down when “Kids Company” went bust just after getting £3 million of public money against Civil Service advice.
      Johan Eliasch – personal worth £2.3 BILLION, May 2019. Member of Boris’s International Business Advisory Council 2008-16, Deputy Tory Party Treasurer 2003-07, etc..
      Frank Field – enough said! Now ex-Labour, if he ever really was.
      The Lord Hague of Richmond – William Hague, former Tory Leader (failed). Now on £300 a day appearance money in the Lords on top of his political pension.
      Paul Marshall – ex-Liberal, former advisor to Nick Clegg. Co-editor of the not-so-liberal “Orange Book”. Net worth £505 million May 2017.
      Duchess of Westminster, Natalia Grosvenor – I quote –“As Duchess of Westminster, Natalia has presided over the remodelling of the traditional family seat, Eaton Hall, and has been closely involved in the redesign of its formal gardens and park. She also takes an interest in the family’s fine art collection”.

      I think their proposal should be field tested. All members of the Centre for Social Justice should be given the opportunity presented by working hard at a job requiring physical good health, and rewarded by generally low wages. Examples could be nursing and personal care, the building trades, agricultural labour. They should not be able to access their other sources of income. They should do this from now to 2028 –the first date of their new proposed pension age. They should then be asked if they would like to carry on enjoying the benefits of continued employment of this nature for a further 6 years to 2034. They would be allowed to withdraw their proposal at any time.

      Anyone of them who falls ill, suffers joint or muscle pains, heart failure, etc., should be referred for DWP assessment, which seems to miraculously return even those dying to employability. They would quickly be restored to full quality of life by the mentally and physically invigorating effects of returning and working on into your late sixties – and even seventies.
      I provide this thought free of charge – the CSJ budget is £1.6 million annually with a staff of 14. Throwing money at something doesn’t always provide the best solution

    308. Moonlight says:

      Hmmmm! I would expect the Electoral Commision to approve a referendum vote along the lines of :

      “Should Scotland remain in the United Kingdom”

      The correct answer is of course “NO”.

      So here we are with all these preparations for “YES”.
      How to confuse the electorate in one easy move.
      How to nullify the success of the “YES” campaign and all the monies spent on “YES” matierials.

      As one who has faith I suspect that the Scottish Parliament will have a move planned to be launched in a carefully calculated manner in the last hours of EU membership. At which point the Unionists will take a deep breath and say “Oh shit”. But the SG are going to keep the powder very dry so that it really is a surprise attack, straight out of the blue , which will stop the Johnson cabal dead in it’s tracks.

      Am I naive, don’t know. But if some can believe in a god I can believe in this. Keeps me sane.Just a thought.

      Failing that, I will sell off my chattels for anything I can get and go to live in Australia with my daughter.

    309. Dorothy Devine says:

      Since it is a question for Scotland ,by Scotland , involving only the people of Scotland then the question should be set by Scotland , answered in Scotland and counted in Scotland by the Scottish government – with , of course , invited observers from the EU to ensure fair play.

    310. galamcennalath says:

      The Electoral Commission exists to ensure unfair play. It’s the ‘British’ way. Cheating, allowing cheating, covering up cheating, and paltry fines which incentivise cheating. The EC have an Establishment to protect.

    311. Hamish100 says:

      Whats the ex snp msp got to say as an electoral Commissioner?

    312. Heart of Galloway says:

      “Can’t believe I even have to make the suggestion, but do we really have to instigate a legal challenge against the Scottish Government because it steadfastly refuses to instigate a legal challenge against Scotland’s unconstitutional colonial subjugation?”

      Well I can Breeks. Your incessant doom-mongering is becoming shrill and tiresome. What purpose does this stuff serve, exactly? Now of all times when we are winning?

      I cannot overstate the importance of the Referendum Bill, which as soon as Parliament returns will be fast-tracked through Holyrood to provide a mechanism to hold IndyRef2. In other words, our parliamentarians will exercise the power delegated to them by the sovereign people of Scotland to do exactly that.

      Which bit of that don’t you get Breeks? As I said on another thread this is a matter of trust that Nicola Sturgeon will deliver the IndyRef goods – and crucially will have tacit EU support in so doing.

      You obviously don’t – so at least be up front about it. These are testing times and I’ll say it again – quit with the ‘wae is me’ shtick and get involved in the IndyRef2 campaign, which in case it has escaped your attention has already started.

    313. Hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’s links here:

    314. Heart of Galloway says:

      You are not being naive.

    315. Dan says:

      FFS, wakes up and starts archiving again… Here’s Manandboy’s link from 7.37am archived…

      Just a heads up that I’m oot most of the day to earn a crust, so everyone just crack on posting up a load of direct links to unionist rags to help promote them, and I’ll come back later to archive them.

    316. Dr Jim says:

      We voted for a government to do what we asked them, we didn’t vote for a body set up to argue against what we voted for or to decide to interpret how we voted and why, and we didn’t vote for the opposition political parties to have input into the question we want asked,If the opposition want a different question it’s easy, get elected by the people it’s kinda why Scotland really shouldn’t be arguing against what England voted for, except we’re roped in on their problem because we live in a dictatorship and not a Union

      You just can’t believe people have been stupid enough to put up with this shit for 300 years, if you didn’t live in it and somebody told you the story of the UK you wouldn’t believe it

    317. Socrates MacSporran says:

      There can be no doubt, the Indyref2 campaign has started. London is mobilising the full might of what remains of the British Empire, rebellious Scots to crush.

      The Electoral Commission wanting to oversee the question is only the start, they will hit us with everything they have in their Project Fear arsenal.

      The SNP must leave no stone uncovered to repulse their attacks, nothing should be off-limits to us.

      Mind you, I think they already know they will lose. Maybe that is why, even those MPs and Establishment figures who knew he was a wrong un have backed Boris.

      It’s very easy to blame the village idiot when things go wrong, but, apart from Cumnock Juniors, who used to do this regularly, nobody ever voted the village idiot into an office of power – until the Tory Party did it the other week.

    318. galamcennalath says:

      “Boris Johnson’s four-page letter on Brexit not going down well in Dublin and Brussels”

      IMO, it was never intended to ‘go down well’. However Johnson is playing games with the wrong organisation.

    319. Breeks says:

      Robert Louis says:
      20 August, 2019 at 7:12 am

      …..The forthcoming independence referendum NEEDS EU and other international observers, because London has just shown its hand, and we now know absolutely for sure, that pandering to London…

      Some of us were already demanding that before YES 2014… sadly dismissed as cries in the wilderness. So much has changed…… or has it?

    320. stu mac says:

      This is out of date but a useful explanation about pension funding:

      A key bit of info in there is that up until the bank crash in 2007/8 the pension fund was in surplus, in 2007 by something like £50 billion. Since then it’s been falling drastically. This is only a small part due to aging population – which is the usual line put out. The main reason for the big drop in funds is 10 years of austerity and the consequent drop in NI contributions.

      Apparently wages have increased negatively – what? I presume they are static or go up but well below inflation over the last decade. Lower you’re paid the lower NI paid by you and your employer. Great for employers but bad for you as your pension fund is dropping and you’ll now have to retire a lot later. So the main cause of drop in the state pension fund isn’t people living longer but the economic incompetence and heartlessness of the Tories.

    321. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      20 August, 2019 at 8:47 am

      IMO, it was never intended to ‘go down well’. However Johnson is playing games with the wrong organisation.

      Johnson’s problem is that it isn’t the Backstop which creates the Border problem. It’s the Good Friday Agreement. The Backstop is merely an agreed affirmation that both parties will respect the Internationally registered Peace Treaty.

      The UK is trying to squirm out of its own commitment, it already agreed to the Backstop for goodness sake, but now expects the EU to be equally fickle with it’s commitments. That isn’t going to happen. Europe knows it, Ireland knows it, and the USA beyond Trump knows it. Johnson knows it too, but he’s a complete chancer in total denial.

      Undermine the Good Friday Agreement, and the UK will be ruling the waves all the way up Shit Creek.

    322. manandboy says:

      Robert Louis – so right. The Electoral Commission will not support a genuinely democratic ballot in Scotland, choosing instead, in compliance with Westminster’s policy, to do whatever it takes to prevent Scottish Independence.

      However, on Scotland’s side of the battlefield, the response of the Scottish Government is likely to reflect what has increasingly become an in-house default cautious conservatism.
      It may well be that this position is best in the chaotic, and potentially rather dangerous, circumstances of the pre-brexit UK, governed by the Vote Leave Campaign team, including, in a minor Punch & Judy role, PM Johnson. But, it is perhaps worthy of note, that the same Scottish Government has never been cautious, quite the opposite, on matters LGBT.

      So Scotland remains stuck apparently, compelled to await the outcome of Brexit and having to accept that it is reserved to Westminster. The fly in the ointment of course is that there is a double deadline which cannot be held hostage by procrastination, including by the SG, the second of which, the public mood, may crack and spill over into food riots and civil disorder – and perhaps much more.
      We haven’t yet seen the army in their shiny new and unused personnel carriers on the streets of our major towns and cities.

      We also need to keep in mind that the UK of 2019, after eight years of Tory Right-wing, ultra Neo-liberal, rampant Capitalist Government, is now being manipulated more and more by the people and events which prevail in the United States. One wonders just who is calling the shots in our increasingly foreign-owned, and influenced, UK.

    323. stu mac says:

      Forgot to say, reason why they kept such a big surplus was the NI also pays unemployment benefit, so need to have spare cash to meet sudden unexpected downturns in the economy. Problem is now we’ve had a government deliberately creating a constant downturn in the economy, with (disguised) unemployment and lower real wages.

    324. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Electoral commision, the UN Declaration of Human Rights states
      Article 21.

      (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
      (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
      (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

      The will of the people as expressed in the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections was that if there was a material change of circumstances such as Scotland being taken out of the European Union against its wishes would result of a referendum on Independence.
      Other UN declarations which I cant find links for state that any peoples have a right to self determination without outside interference.

      Time to tell Westminster and its Patsys to butt out, it has not got anything to do with them.

    325. Robert Peffers says:

      @Daisy Walker says: 19 August, 2019 at 11:59 pm:

      ” … Anyone out there with a plan? A people’s plan, a yes plan, at this point even a Baldrick plan would be worth contemplating.”

      Of course there is, Daisy, everyone and their dug, cat and pet parrot has a plan, probably including you. What’s more each and every one of them will be telling us on social media that their plan is the only one that will achieve their desired result.

      The only one who has a plan that will actually do what is necessary is Nicola Sturgeon and she is the only one who will not be telling everyone, or anyone, what the SG, SNP and the Westminster faction of the SNP are going to do and she would be daft to tell anyone and thus allow the opposition, (unionists), know what is coming their way.

    326. manandboy says:

      Oops, I’ve done it again. I should write it down, otherwise I just forget. Sorry, Dan. Have a good day. Now, where’s that pen, I had it a wee while ago, or was that yesterday. What day is it, Wednesday?, nah, must’ve been Sunday, what have I done with it? Oh, look, odd socks.
      Seriously, Dan, I will archive in future – eventually.

    327. manandboy says:

      Dan says, ‘and I’ll come back later to archive them.’
      Dan, your a saint!

    328. Craig Murray says:

      My post on this electoral commission decision is the prelude to action to press for international observers, on which I will be looking for help shortly. I hope that all shades of nationalist opinion will be able to unite on that.

    329. Abulhaq says:

      This is where the finicky ‘lawyer mentality’ gets you.
      The independence party plainly can’t see the wood for the trees.
      Opportunities come, opportunities go…..

    330. manandboy says:

      Perfidious PM Johnson, doing all the wrong things, quite deliberately and according to plan.

      In the world of Dominic Cummings, confusion is king.

    331. Breeks says:

      Heart of Galloway says:
      20 August, 2019 at 8:36 am

      Well I can Breeks. Your incessant doom-mongering is becoming shrill and tiresome. What purpose does this stuff serve, exactly? Now of all times when we are winning?

      Just a little issue of losing my European Citizenship at the end of October, and bearing witness to Scotland’s abject humiliation and colonial subjugation, binding us to suffer the economic catastrophe of Brexit when we have the lawful means to prevent it right in front of us, but stoically ignored by our own government who prefers to win Independence on the back of Boris Johnson’s own goals and Westminster incompetence rather than the launch even the meekest defence of the Constitutional integrity of one of the oldest Nations on the planet.

      You think I’m unhappy and shrill now? Just wait until Scotland actually is dragged out of Europe. To coin the phrase, you won’t like me when I’m angry.

      I voted SNP for a government to defend Scotland and extricate our Nation from this damned Union, not an insipid ‘anti-leadership’ entirely preoccupied with their own electoral inadequacy.

      There are 10 weeks left. We can either step up and take our place amongst other Nations as prosperous equals, or capitulate, and embark on another forlorn glacial odyssey following the SNP which doesn’t seem to know it’s way, and still has no answers to state propaganda, electoral manipulation, and the constant unrestrained distortion and misrepresentation of Scottish finances and exploitation of resources which will conspire to sink any UK based referendum we finally ask permission to hold.

      10 weeks to take command of our sovereign nationhood, and the SNP just back from their holidays call it tiresome.

    332. Robert Peffers says:

      As to the Electoral Commission – the answer to them is the same as it is to the rest of the Westminster Establishment and it is, “No section 30 means you don’t have any say in any Scottish move towards independence”.

    333. Ken500 says:

      Poopy pants in full flow. The two unanswered e-mails. The crystal ball is always wrong. Loser.

    334. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      Exactly Robert, the Electoral commissions ‘intervention’ is a tacit admission that a section 30 can’t or won’t be refused.
      They have gone way to early on this one, westminster needs to sack whoever came up with this, the timing is very poor.

    335. John H. says:

      A woman in England who is receiving treatment for breast cancer phoned in yesterday to James O’Brien. Her hospital has told her to bring her passport with her every time she comes in, so that she, as a British citizen, can be given priority.

      Priti Patel is wasting no time in putting her agenda into action.

    336. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers –

      Your reply to Daisy Walker is another example of circular reasoning.

      As a debating tactic it may be effective, aye, but you know very well it’s a cheap shot.

    337. galamcennalath says:

      “…..Public Health England, which regulates the health aspects of communication technology throughout the UK. … Orkney Islands Council said it would allow the mast to stay up until the end of the trial after receiving advice from Public Health England.”

      A reminder that communications, inc mobile phones, is a reserved matter,

      However, why was a UK wide responsibility delegated to an English organisation?

      The reality is that the UK is in practice a Greater England.

    338. SilverDarling says:

      Neil Mackay talking of his SNP pearl clutcher chums, ‘I was speaking to a well-known SNP politician recently, who told me that they thanked God that “most of the zoomers” had stopped coming to their local party meetings.’ Any guesses?
      I’ll go with Stewart McDonald MP?

      Well there you have it, that welcoming inclusive SNP. The people who will get us Independence don’t want anyone who is a bit loud or frustrated and wants to get things done. They had 6 seats at Westminster until the ‘Zoomers’ joined.

      Substitute ‘Zoomer’ for anyone who expresses dissatisfaction with the way the SNP are dragging their heels.

      Anyone here still think the SNP will listen anytime soon to those that put them into power? All you ‘upset women’, are just Zoomer ‘shoeless mice’ bringing your grievances out into the open. I mean there are University lecturers who haven’t heard of this ‘woke’ nonsense, real people don’t bother with that sort of thing. It’s enough to put you off Independence.

      So settle down, ‘Nicola’ has a plan up her sleeve, in her pocket, down the back of the sofa. She’s a lawyer you know, who reads books.

      Never mind people, just keeping voting SNP.

    339. Sarah says:

      O/T Effijy: I cannot get the independence pledge site on Chrome or Explorer today. Are you still able to see it?

      My paranoia is kicking in….

    340. gus1940 says:

      Bob Mack

      Was Cudlipp not Hugh Cudlipp of the Mirror Group?

      I’m sure there was a General named at the time as a leading light.

    341. robertknight says:

      Very much looking forward to the 1st of November and being ‘saved’ from Boris and his hard-Brexit by the SNP.

      Assuming of course that the plan to stop Scotland being dragged out of the EU on the 31st of October, against the will of some two thirds of the Scottish electorate, doesn’t simply consist of more hand wringing and talk of ‘asking’ Westminster for a Section 30 order. If it does, then it’s not just the future of the country that’ll look decidedly bleak.

    342. CameronB Brodie says:

      Calls to trust the SNP are perhaps not best timed, given the pig’s ear the party appears determined to make out of legal reason (see self-id of sex). Understanding the issue of gender might not appear connected with self-determination, but believe me it is. I know a bit about this stuff, and the party appears either ignorant of the existence and nature of international public law, or they have been infiltrated by purposeful and puritanical ideological extremists. Common purpose that is. No shit. The conference has to restore common sense to the party or our cause is lost.

      Sovereignty and The Politics of Identity
      In International Relations


      This paper examines the linkages between the norms and practices of sovereignty and the discourses on the formation of political identity and communities amidst twenty-first century socio-political and economic transformations. By undertaking a postmodern deconstruction of sovereignty, this paper recognizes sovereignty as a subjective, and hence fallible, social construct. It further contends that sovereignty as an Enlightenment project has become untenable with its promise of a universal solution to spatiotemporal problems.

      Against the backdrop of globalization, this paper problematizes sovereignty and argues that it is inextricably tied to the politics of identity. It also raises the idea of sovereignty as an analogue of the Enlightenment model of the rational sovereign Man. Enshrined most pre-eminently in the nation-state, sovereignty represents simultaneously the locus and limit of what is regarded as political identity.

      Furthermore, the norms and practices of sovereignty reflect changes in notions and the foci of identity. This paper attempts to locate explanations for the evolution of sovereignty at the level of identity formation, and points out that the politics of identity and the politics of sovereignty are a mutually constitutive, intersubjective discourse.

      Finally, this paper states that by persistently defining sovereignty in terms of indivisibility and exclusivity, sovereignty itself is becoming an obstacle to human emancipation.

    343. CameronB Brodie says:

      As I said, I do know a bit about this stuff.

      Reflexive particularism and cosmopolitanization:
      the reconfiguration of the national,%20D.,%20M.%20Heinlein,%20and%20L.%20Breuer.%202011.%20Reflexive%20particularism%20and%20cosmopolitanization.%20the%20reconfiguration%20of%20the%20national.pdf

    344. Effijy says:


      It is working OK.

      Thanks Effijy

    345. Sarah says:

      O/T Effijy: It’s OK. I should have searched for, not!

      And I have good reason for paranoia anyway…

    346. CameronB Brodie says:

      As we’re in the quickening and folk don’t apparently click links, here’s a snippet from the above link, highlighting some insight from the study of collective memory. Remember, the full-English Brexit seeks to bury the memory of Britain’s colonial past, present and future.

      ….This cosmopolitanization of European states is driven, among other things, by what we call a ‘memory imperative’ which marshals a set of political and normative expectations for the handling of past injustices – in the (paradigmatic) European case this refers to the Second World War and the Holocaust (Levy and Sznaider 2006a).

      The Holocaust has evolved from a European concern into a universal code, one frequently tapped to comment on injustice and human rights abuse as such (in both legal and commemorative discourses). As our findings show, this universal code is subject to particular (country-specific) appropriations. One expects European nation states to engage with their history in a self-critical fashion. While traditional or heroic narratives deploy historical events in the service of national foundation myths, sceptical narratives may call attention to past injustices committed by one’s own nation.

      To be sure, self-victimizing narratives frequently complement such selfcritical approaches. Notwithstanding, this memory imperative has become an important source of state legitimacy and a signature of Europeanness as an emergent cultural-cognitive principle. We describe this process in terms of reflexive particularism, referring to deliberative cognitive reflections that can be read as reactions to renegotiations of the national.2 Through reflexive particularism, the nation-state is being revalued in an emerging transnational European memory scape.

      One cannot reduce this phenomenon to either the persistence or the demise of nationalism, revealing instead how cognitive and mnemonic practices (can) reinflect the national. Reflexive particularism, then, does not consist of a unified European discourse, but manifests itself in the following repertoires of memory work – affirmative but ambivalent perceptions of Europeanness, sceptical narratives about the nation emphasizing injustice and perpetratorship, and an increased recognition of the Other. While there is no unified (or unifying) European memory, our findings show that there are shared cosmopolitan memory practices.

    347. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Abulhaq at 9.33

      Entirely predictable pish. Electoral Commission getting a naive reaction from some idiots.
      Very few of them however contribute on here.
      Nicola will remain entirely steady as usual and will be satisfied to note that the ECs response is an indication that a Section 30 will be granted. They are just trying to determine its terms which tells us all we need to know.

    348. Hamish100 says:


      bbc in orkney being accused of putting school children’s health at risk over a transmitter at a school. Sounds familiar?

      BBC last word on the subject?

      “Orkney Islands Council said it would allow the mast to stay up until the end of the trial after receiving advice from Public Health England”.
      They cannot help themselves.

    349. Hamish100 says:

      ot nos 2

      Colleague just advised that the person on the roof appears to be breaking safety rules.

      Turn yirself in bbc

    350. Effijy says:

      John H. says:
      20 August, 2019 at 10:12 am
      A woman in England who is receiving treatment for breast cancer phoned in yesterday to James O’Brien. Her hospital has told her to bring her passport with her every time she comes in, so that she, as a British citizen, can be given priority.

      Priti Patel is wasting no time in putting her agenda into action.

      Effijy- Now if a tourist and a UK citizen await stitches or some simple A & E procedure then I couldn’t argue that the person paying into the NHS goes first.

      What if the tourist is having a heart attack and sure to die without immediate resuscitation?

      Is Patel saying they must then die as stitches come first?
      It looks like it.

      Now If I was Senior in a German, Spanish or French Hospital, would I not reciprocate what Patel has initiated?

      So if you are seriously ill while on holiday or you are an expat
      facing death in the absence of immediate medical treatment, you
      can die as far as patel is concerned.

      You know how NHS England has privatised around 11% of their NHS so far and they are missing every target and performing well below NHS Scotland, what would happen to it if over 1 Million elderly expats decided that they need to return to England as their health is now in jeopardy abroad.

      Where do the 100’s thousands of additional homes come from, where are the GP’s, Hospital Beds and Nurses to look after them?

      If Scotland remains chained to Westminster, you will gradually see the NHS Sold of to Trumpland, prior to that Doctors will be trained to check the vital signs for a Credit Card, Private Health Insurance Certificates and then you passport.

      If you are still alive after that there was something in the memo about checking for a pulse if the earlier signs are positive.

      Wouldn’t it be something if one of Patel’s family, still living in India, took ill on holiday in the UK and died waiting for medical attention.
      An enquiry would report that staff put them back in the waiting room as they had the wrong passport.


      People like Patel, Ian Duncan Smith and Boris act like the Government in the Hunger Games Trilogy.
      Many must die needlessly for their entertainment and benefit.

    351. Daisy Walker says:

      So, some facts, re-iterated.

      Without some form of WM parliamentary act – the default position is hard brexit on 31/10/19.

      The options to stop are WM manages to obtain further votes to revoke article 50… and hope Labour don’t scupper it again.

      A deal is voted through by a majority of MP’s – not seeing any new deal on the horizon, or even negotiations for one.

      A Vote of No Confidence obtains a majority vote in WM – which means Jeremy for PM – hmmm – wouldn’t hold my breath for that, but if it does pass

      There are 14 days for him to form a govt of National Unity. During which time (due to the legislation being poorly written) there will be no active government in power. Can you hear that Brexit clock ticking down.

      Then if a Gov or National Unity cannot be formed, a GE is called – the earliest poll date being 25 working days from calling it. And for a Referendum a minimum of 28 days (doesn’t specify working days).

      That means 13/9/19 is the last day for calling a GE BEFORE 31/10/19. And between 4/9/19 and 13/9/19 is all the time they have to try and vote to revoke A50, or vote for a Deal, or vote through VoNC. Anything other than that and its Tory business as usual – all the way to the cliff edge and beyond.

      After a 31/10/19 with Holyrood neutered – the SNP can have all the plans in the world – and no democratic means to implement them.

      And in the mean time we know the BBC is biased and incredibly powerful. Any and all plans the SNP intend to put into action will need the foot soldiers to cover the ground to counteract the BBC, and those foot soldiers will need the script, and it takes time to learn the script.

      What is the script folks – is it 2 parts Brexit Bad to one part Indy Positive?

      During Indy Ref 1 we all knew the script was Positive, positive, positive for Indy. That came from the leadership (at all levels) of the SNP. They set the tone and we all grabbed it with both hands and ran with it.

      What’s the script just now? C’mon, we must know by now, at this late hour – it should be coming out of every constituency meeting by now like a mantra.

      Where is it and what is it? What is the SNP crib sheet for all that is bad about Brexit – we know enough about how bad it is now, to start spreading the word in our areas. Anyone?

      We are almost out of time.

    352. cirsium says:

      Very interesting post from Craig Murray on the Electoral Commission’s paper to the Scottish Parliament. Hope the Scottish Government goes up to warp speed on its return.

      Ian Blackford has often said at Westminster that Scotland will not be taken out of the EU. I knew that he could not detail then how this was to be brought about. The time for rhetoric has now passed. It is time for action.

    353. cirsium says:

      Very interesting post from Craig Murray on the Electoral Commission’s submission to the Scottish Parliament. Here’s hoping the Scottish Government goes up to warp speed on its return.

      Ian Blackford has often said in the House of Commons that Scotland would not be taken out Europe. I knew that he could not detail at that time how this was to be accomplished. The time for rhetoric has now vcpd

    354. admiral says:

      Daisy Walker says: If Scotland remains chained to Westminster, you will gradually see the NHS Sold of to Trumpland, prior to that Doctors will be trained to check the vital signs for a Credit Card, Private Health Insurance Certificates and then you passport.

      My sister lives in London and has severe chronic lung disease. She attends hospital. GP and other clinics regularly. When she gets an appointment letter from her hospital clinic there is a compulsory questionnaire, including questions like “what was the exact date you entered the United Kingdom?”. She now automatically takes her passport whenever she attends a NHS facility of any sort.

      Everywhere has posters plastered all over with warnings about being charged if you can’t prove your right to free NHS treatment. I was shocked when I visited last week and accompanied her to a CT scan at hospital and later to a visit to the oxygen physio – everywhere the hostile environment warning notices outnumbered notices with information for patients.

    355. cirsium says:

      Very interesting post from Craig Murray on the Electoral Commission’s submission to the Scottish Parliament. Here’s hoping the Scottish Government goes up to warp speed on its return.

      Ian Blackford has often said in the House of Commons that Scotland would not be taken out Europe. I knew that he could not detail at that time how this was to be accomplished. The time for rhetoric has now passed. It is time for action. The “front of battle lours”.

      Well said Daisy Walker 12.54

    356. Robert Kerr says:

      A comment on Craig Murray’s blog is superb.

      “At some point you just got to throw the damn tea into the harbor and tell the King and his minions what you really think of them.”

    357. sassenach says:

      It saddens me that , lately, we have so many posts critical of SNP and the absence of any ideas of “plans in the pipeline”.
      Ian Blackford has regularly stated “We will not be dragged out…..”, and presumably has the OK to say that from Head Office.

      Which should imply there will be something afoot, but it’s getting awfully late in the day.

      If 31st Oct arrives and Scotland is taken over the edge, then I see little hope of much being, thereafter, possible in regards to any Indyref. Boris will make sure of that, when he no longer has to worry about the EU behind us.

      As an indy supporter and SNP member over many years, I am torn between thinking
      1) that there IS a plan and
      2)it’s getting too late to escape from this odious Union with England.

      Please, please let it be the former.

    358. Karmanaut says:

      GERS tomorrow.

      Who wants to bet the BBC use “the Scottish Government spent X more than it raised” nonsense again?

      They do it every year.

    359. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 20 August, 2019 at 10:42 am:

      ” … As a debating tactic it may be effective, aye, but you know very well it’s a cheap shot.”</i?

      Nothing cheap about it Ian, and it is the stone cold truth. Social media, and what laughingly passes as the MSM, have been full of people attempting to either second guess Nicola Sturgeon or to attempt to put down Nicola, the SNP and both the Holyrood and Westminster SNP MPs & MSPs.

      The entire load of all that background chatter amounts to absolutely nothing.

      The point being that whether or not Nicola Sturgeon, the entire SNP, either in parliament or just as a party, have a plan or don't have a plan is only going to be unofficially leaked by a very high member of the SNP or officially announced by the First Minister herself. In the case of the First Minister, she is hardly likely to broadcast plan A never mind plans bee to zee before the event.

      There is no way Nicola can reveal any plans she may have to the faithful without also alerting the Westminster Establishment as well. It just isn't going to be made public until it goes into action – so just what is the point of anyone, indy, unionist or BREexiteer arguing or speculation about it?

      That is unless the one speculating about it has the intention of harming the indy people's moral and I note those ones are becoming ever more strident as the obvious signs of a rise in indy support become clearer.

      You can read that effect right here on Wings.

    360. defo says:

      Anyone here clued up to proposals for land reform post Indy?
      Specifically foreign ownership & historic titled land.

      Far from seeing fifth columnists & infiltrators around every corner, what I observe is a lot of very worried peeps.
      Uncertainty is a bugger, and when the stakes are this high…

    361. Daisy Walker says:

      ‘admiral says:
      20 August, 2019 at 1:12 pm
      Daisy Walker says: If Scotland remains chained to Westminster, you will gradually see the NHS Sold off to Trumpland, prior to that Doctors will be trained to check the vital signs for a Credit Card, Private Health Insurance Certificates and then you passport.’

      Hello Admiral – I’m not sure where or when I’ve ever said the above…. not that it isn’t true however, well said whoever did.

      Robert – there is ground that can and must be covered, and covered now, without the SNP giving away their secret, secret plan – and it is not being done.

      Try as I might, when having conversations about the biggest threat to Scotland and the UK since WW2, saying to people, ‘its all right Nicola has a plan, auld Boab telt me, so it must be true’ just doesnae cut it for some reason.

    362. Dr Jim says:

      We’re still in the EU, until that changes nothing’s changed
      It seems what folk are arguing or anxious about are the varying degrees of urgency each person is experiencing over the reporting of the news which as we all know is lots and lots of talking spin and speculation signifying nothing but energising everybody

      There are two months to go, a lot of things can happen until then

    363. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think I might have reached peak-flow, just in time for the quickening. Given the full-English Brexit threatens to enslave Scots within a relationship lacking in empathy or moral remorse, I hope folk can make some time for an hour-long video chat about the production of human values, ethics and the processes of moral transformation, what moral progress entails, and the social role of inter-disciplinary practice.

      N.B. the full-English Brexit undermines global moral progress.

      Elizabeth Anderson: “Social Movements, Experiments in Living, and Moral Progress: Case Studies from Britain’s Abolition of Slavery.”

    364. Robert Peffers says:

      @SilverDarling says:20 August, 2019 at 11:21 am:

      ” … away and stop talking rubbish, SilverDarling.

      There is a great deal of difference between someone who disagrees with something the SNP is doing or saying and goes about expressing that disagreement in a proper manner and, yes I will use the term, Zoomers, who intentionally or unintentionally, set about causing as much trouble as they can manage.

      Branches operate according to the rule book and the rules are strictly democratic. If you have a point to make, either for or against the official party line, then you bring it up at the branch meeting if it is already on the agenda. You DO NOT loudly yell it out to the very much anti-indy media or interrupt when other things are being dealt with.

      You bring it up at the branch meeting if the matter is on the agenda and being dealt with. If it isn’t on the agenda then at the end of every branch meeting the chairperson asks, “Any Other Business”, or perhaps, “Any other relevant business”. However, in all probability, if the matter is a current one, it will already be on the agenda of the meeting.

      In either case your proposal, whether for or against the party line, must be recorded in the minutes of the meeting and that makes it official business and it must be acted upon.

      … Well there you have it, that welcoming inclusive SNP. The people who will get us Independence don’t want anyone who is a bit loud or frustrated and wants to get things done.”

      See the above reply to you rubbish. Just go about the matter in the correct manner and it gets recorded in the minutes and acted upon.

      Start yelling and stamping your foot and making a nuisance of yourself and thus interrupting an orderly meeting and you will not only get classed as a zoomer but as you obviously have not gone about the matter in the correct manner it will not be recorded as, “Any other business”, but will be recorded as an interruption in the minutes and might even see you slapped down by the chair – and rightly so.

      Furthermore if you make your mouth go to the MSM or on social media it will not have any other effect than have you classed as the anti-independence zoomer you quite obviously are.

    365. Terry callachan says:

      Dr Jim..20/8/19 .2.20pm

      I agree a lot can happen before 31.10.19

    366. Daisy Walker says:

      Dr Jim, ‘There are two months to go, a lot of things can happen until then’.

      As I understand it, WM reconvenes after its hols on 5th Sept – which is a Thursday, it has until 13th Sept to either revoke A50 to stop Brexit, or vote for some form of Deal Brexit, or hold a Vote of No confidence (and win it) in order to replace the Tories, or call a new GE.

      Including 5th Sept, and excluding the weekend, that is 7 working parliament days until 13/9/19 which is the deadline for calling a new GE to be held on 31/10/19.

      The tories – red and blue – just have to sit back, do very little, be awkward – and bingo, a no deal Brexit is the prize.

    367. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Bob,

      Your reply to Silver Darling is extremely rude and not for the first time.

      I value her contributions.

      I would appreciate it if you moderate your tone, which I find hectoring, and bullying.


    368. Terry callachan says:

      Defo 20/8/19..2.15pm

      About land reform, my observations are that all the countries I visit have housing close to the coast so people can choose to live in an isolated place if they wish and there are many villages that have nice little shops but in Scotland farming goes right to the coast the big estates that own the farms have cut off the countryside from the people of Scotland, they used to say they stop people walking in the countryside so that the countryside doesn’t get ruined, that was just a lie, we are all crammed into Glasgow Edinburgh Dundee Perth Stirling Aberdeen there are huge areas of land in Scotland that are barren and just being used by the estates to rear grouse pheasant deer for shooting .

      Scottish independence will change that .

    369. Terry callachan says:

      Robert Kerr 20.8.19 at 1.35 pm

      Chucking the tea into the harbour..

      And they were only picking that fight because of high taxes.
      Look what evolved, their independence.

      Scotland should perhaps do something similar but I don’t think we’ve reached that yet, 31.10.19 will be telling we will know by then if we have been taken out of the EU against our will and if we have all hell will break loose not just here in Scotland but NI as well.

    370. Jack Murphy says:

      I’ll post this here for readers just popping into Wings for a few minutes.

      Earlier today Craig Murray said on this Thread:

      “My post on this electoral commission decision is the prelude to action to press for international observers, on which I will be looking for help shortly. I hope that all shades of nationalist opinion will be able to unite on that.

      Apologies for reposting Mr Murray’s contribution,but it is very important.

    371. Maria F says:

      galamcennalath says:

      “A reminder that communications, inc mobile phones, is a reserved matter”

      Westminster may think communications are reserved**, but public health is indeed not. It is therefore not for an England organisation in public health nor the BBC to decide if those masts are safe from the public health point of view in Scotland. It is for Public Health Scotland to decide so.

      **In September 2014 we voted for, according to Cameron, the then PM of the UK, to become “the most devolved nation in the world”. Spanish regions have enjoyed devolved broadcasting for more three decades, therefore, in line with Cameron’s pledge, we should have been enjoying devolved broadcasting for almost 5 years now.

      In line with our Claim of Right and our sovereignty rights, it could be argued that on 18th September 2014, with our vote to become the most devolved nation in the world, we removed from Westminster its legitimacy to control broadcasting on our behalf, as we can only become the most devolved nation in the world, in line with the then PM of the UK pledge, if we are more devolved than Spanish regions.

    372. defo says:

      Jack Murphy

      I read it earlier.
      Another activist stepping into the void, or provoking a response?

    373. Terry callachan says:

      I have found slugger O’Toole to be a fascinating and very inclusive blog site

    374. starlaw says:

      The Electoral Commission , are aware somethings afoot and wish to get their snout into Scottish affairs again.This time I hope that they can be done without, as their record on fairness re elections is pretty damn poor.

    375. Terry callachan says:

      Here is a video of Ruth Davidson going to a meeting in London she was asked what is a no deal going to do to Scotland
      Funny how reporters in Scotland can’t ask her , well it’s not really funny it just shows how britnat right wing they are

    376. admiral says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      20 August, 2019 at 2:20 pm
      ‘admiral says:
      20 August, 2019 at 1:12 pm
      Daisy Walker says: If Scotland remains chained to Westminster, you will gradually see the NHS Sold off to Trumpland, prior to that Doctors will be trained to check the vital signs for a Credit Card, Private Health Insurance Certificates and then you passport.’
      Hello Admiral – I’m not sure where or when I’ve ever said the above…. not that it isn’t true however, well said whoever did.

      My apologies, Daisy – and my apologies also to Effijy, whose post it was that I quoted!

    377. admiral says:

      Karmanaut says:
      20 August, 2019 at 1:51 pm
      GERS tomorrow.
      Who wants to bet the BBC use “the Scottish Government spent X more than it raised” nonsense again?
      They do it every year.

      Despite being told year after year they are wrong and having it all explained to them. You’d almost think they were doing it deliberately! 🙂

    378. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers (1.56) –

      You misunderstand.

      I wasn’t asking for an expanded version of your opinion, and I’m certainly not interested in having a discussion about it. Any discussion you may want to have should now be with Daisy Walker, who I see has since responded.

      The sole purpose of my comment was to indicate your use of a specific debating technique which was uncalled for and, viewed in relation to Daisy Walker’s original comment, borderline scurrilous.

      That’s all I have to say on it.

    379. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hamish100 says: 20 August, 2019 at 12:52 pm:

      … “ot nos 2
      Colleague just advised that the person on the roof appears to be breaking safety rules.
      Turn yirself in bbc”

      This whole thing is a load of codswallop, Hamish100. I left school at 15 and started an apprenticeship in HM Dockyard Rosyth. During my apprenticeship I spend several periods in the Radar Base and some of the rest of my time in other departments around the Dockyard.

      Now the Dockyard was also a Naval Base and you were never far from ships with crews still aboard and their radio, radar and sonar being used and some of my apprentice time was spent actually working on ships still with crews aboard and all equipment in use.

      I then opted for Yard Services, (better earnings there), before being forced into the Radar base until I retired. Yet in all that time being exposed to radio and radar frequencies I never met anyone who was adversely affected by being exposed to radio frequencies. I’m now in my mid 80s and still have no ill effects to all that exposure to all forms of radio frequencies.

      Just think about it – an entire large Radar Base with many dozens of people all working on Radar and Radio equipment all in relatively close proximity to each other yet no one was any the worse for it.

      Here’s a wee example from long before homes were using microwave ovens. When working on ships radar it was common practice to, (unofficially), unbolt the short section of waveguide that carried the radar frequency signals from the aerial on the masthead to and from the radar set in the Radar room. The short bit was for draining the waveguide if water got in. There was often on heating or lighting on ships under refit, we then used the microwave radar signals to boil water for your tea or to heat up a pie for your lunch.

      If we had thought about it we could have made a fortune by making microwave ovens. No one suffered any bad results from the signals as we knew not to be where it was actually dangerous.

      The myth that mobile phone signals are dangerous is much overplayed.

    380. Breastplate says:

      Robert Peffers, I don’t believe it is possible in this political climate for the SNP to keep secret any plans they have from the British Establishment.
      It would be remiss of the British secret service not to spy on the SNP and make it their business to know every tactical trick they have up their Scottish sleeves.

      Perhaps this sounds far fetched?
      The technology and capability to do so already exists.
      The British State are in possession of the technology and the capability to utilise it efficiently.
      The SNP are seen as a threat to the U.K.
      That threat has increased in recent times.

      It is quite logical to believe that the British State will use any means they can to keep the U.K. intact. It is after all, their job to do so.

      It is my view that the British secret services know more about what’s going on in the SNP than Nicola Sturgeon as they will be privy to conversations within the party that she has no knowledge of.

      We may not know but there are no secrets the SNP have to wrongfoot Westminster.

      This is of course my opinion but please let me know if my logic is flawed in any way.

    381. Dr Jim says:

      @Daisy Walker 2:37pm

      The unless the change of circumstances such as being dragged out of the EU against our will hasn’t happened yet, until that happens I don’t see our side doing anything to upset the Brexiters applecart except what they are doing which is making a mostly public display to all onlookers that Scotland doesn’t want this and will refuse to stand for it

      At the same time I agree that the Brexiters don’t have to do anything, but I also think our side knows that too and Brexit will most likely happen when its supposed to and then the Scottish government will act legitimately

      I’m also quite sure the EU is entirely in the loop within Scottish politics and are ready to help and accept Scotland as their newest member state at the earliest available opportunity probably on terms already discussed

      Does Nicola Sturgeon look really worried, does Mary Lou McDonald in Northern Ireland look all that bothered, do the EU look like they’re going to back down

      Maybe it’s me but I’m getting the impression that everybody on our team just isn’t that worried and that leads me to think they know something we don’t, it could all be wishful thinking of course but considering the enormity of the situation everybody seems a bit Dads army don’t panic about it all

      I think it’ll be the Boris clown show that’ll be doing the panicking shortly once the media lose their nerve and blow it giving the game away

      I’m an optimist, failing that I’ve already sharpened my swords if the pen fails

    382. Breastplate says:

      “We may not know”. We meaning us plebs.

    383. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dr Jim , your optimism has spread to me, good post, as you say. Our lot dont looked stressed whilst the opposition has bought the worlds entire stock of bubble wrap.

    384. Welsh Sion says:

      Breastplate @ 3:27 pm

      I refer you to this – in a Welsh context. Doubtless, Scotland too has its cloak and dagger enemies, too.

      The song “Ciosg Talysarn” by the Welsh folk singer Dafydd Iwan was written after two secret agents were found bugging a public telephone in Talysarn in 1982.


    385. mike cassidy says:


      To plan or not to plan.

      That is the question.

      But what if there’s never a plan?

      “For example, I spend a lot of time answering questions on why a ‘life long independence supporter like Nicola seems more interested in the EU’. I’ve heard any number of theories about the strategic intent.

      I think they’re mostly wrong. I think that when the First Minister talks about independence she gets attacked. When she talks about her domestic agenda she gets attacked. When she talks about Remaining in the EU, everyone loves her”


      A question for those who know about such things.

      Can the Scottish Government just tell the Electoral Commission to feck off legally speaking?

      Nothing to do with you.

    386. Breastplate says:

      Welsh Sion, very interesting and thanks for that.
      I remember the internet cafe the British secret service set up to spy on G20 officials about 8 years ago.
      They were caught that time but I’m sure they will learn from their mistakes.

    387. Craig Fraser says:

      I have a definition for retirement it is “doing what you want, when you want, with who you want and being able to afford it” sadly this last bit, the “able to afford it” is now getting to the stage where an enjoyable life after 40 years of stress and toil will be beyond the majority of us. I really despair at how consecutive Westminster Governments red and blue have legged over the masses to feather their own nests.

    388. Brian Powell says:

      I wonder which department or departments would be most likely to influence the Electoral Commission in its attempts to spike the Ref?

      It would be interesting to send FOI requests to any departments for any emails, texts, letters of contact between EC and any departments concerning the Ref.

      Any former diplomats around who would know?

    389. Effijy says:

      Just remembered that the Idiot who put a stop to the wonderful Final Salary Pensions
      Was Klunker Brown, Fife’s famous fake socialist.

      He has the nerve to scaremonger Scotland about Pensions after this
      And his Blue Tory Pals proposals for retirement at 75 year old.

      Chancer of the Exchequer!

    390. Golfnut says:

      @ Mike Cassidy.
      ‘ can the Scottish Government just tell them fe## off.

      Short answer, Yes

      The Scottish Government are under no obligation to accept their ‘ request ‘.

      As I said up thread, this is about winding the Yes movement, plenty of airtime and lots of SNP/ Nicola baad for letting this happen. It’s badly timed, personally I would have aimed to cause max disruption nearer the vote, so something else going on that they need to draw attention away from.

    391. mike cassidy says:

      Breastplate 3.59

      GCHQ internet cafes and everything else.

      And you would have to be very naïve to think ten years on that they’re not doing this to the SNP et al.

      With improved technology

    392. Breastplate says:

      Agreed Mike,
      I remember reading about the internet spy cafe years ago but had forgotten that it was Snowden who put it in the public domain.
      Spying on our allies under the pretence of national security. I wonder how they would treat perceived enemies?

    393. Robert Peffers says:

      @Daisy Walker says: 20 August, 2019 at 2:43 pm:

      … Dear Bob,
      Your reply to Silver Darling is extremely rude and not for the first time.”

      Rubbish, Daisy Walker, There is not one word of, “bad language” in my entire comment, there are no threats, no accusations and no bullying.

      Because you, personally do not like the contents neither makes it rude or threatening. It no more than tells the plain truth that if anyone, and that includes elected MEPs, MPs, MSPs and councillors, doesn’t agree with the SNP then there is the correct and the incorrect method of challenging it.

      In fact there is more rudeness and attempted bullying in both your and Silverdarling’s comments than there is in mine.

      … I value her contributions.”

      Which is factually irrelevant to what you are accusing me of doing or being.

      ” … I would appreciate it if you moderate your tone, which I find hectoring, and bullying.”

      You can appreciate it or not, for not only is it neither hectoring or bullying but quite simply telling the stone cold truth. It is, in fact, far less hectoring or bullying that this comment from you I am now replying to.

      My comment simply points out, for the umpteenth time, that if anyone wants to disagree with the SNP then there are laid down rules in the SNP member’s rule book on exactly how to do so. These, of course, only apply to SNP members.

      Then there are independence supporters who are not SNP members. They are in a different position but there again the thing is that there will not be a chance of independence if there is no SNP for no other political party is even close to having the slightest chance of gaining for Scotland Scottish independence.

      Yet the fact remains if they want to change SNP policy they have no chance of doing so if they are not party members. The only way for SNP policy to be changed is by a motion made by a branch at National Conference. This will have begun at a branch meeting by an SNP member and gone through the normal process of a motion being proposed, but may have counter proposals, or proposed amendments, then either passed or the proposal and counter proposal debated and voted upon.

      SNP policy can only be changed by branch delegates at National Conference. If you are not in the party you cannot affect policy.

      If you attend a branch meeting as a member you have the right to propose a motion or to propose an amendment to anything, (if you have a seconder), but you will not get to just interrupt the meeting when other business is in hand. New business is introduced at the end as, “Any other business”, however, if your proposal concerns a matter already on the agenda then you can bring up your point when that is the business in hand. If you are not a party member you have no say in SNP business. It really is that simple.

      So there you go – I have not used bad language, I have threatened no one nor have I been abusive or accused anyone of anything – How then have I bullied or hectored anyone?

      You, though, are making accusation against me.

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      So what’s the point of an interdisciplinary approach to tackling social change? Principally, it gives a fuller appraisal of reality than is possible through positivist science, and is capable of uncovering mechanisms of social structuration that folk are often oblivious of (i.e. patriarchy). I’m sure Reluctant Nationalist will be along any minute now, with supportive evidence. 😉

      Prospects for direct social perception: a multi-theoretical integration to further the science of social cognition

      ….The specific debate often centers on the ways in which humans are able to understand the mental states of others, whether through inferential mechanisms (e.g., Gopnik and Wellman, 1992), simulation mechanisms (e.g., Blakemore and Decety, 2001; Goldman, 2006), and/or direct perception (Gallagher, 2008; De Jaegher, 2009). This is the core of the present article: to provide an integrated theoretical account of social cognitive mechanisms, with a specific focus on the role of direct perception. Recent integrative accounts suggest that humans have the capability to employ each of these mechanisms, though, in differing contexts (e.g., Beer and Ochsner, 2006; Bohl and van den Bos, 2012).

      This has been argued through theorizing that relies on findings from social cognitive neuroscience (Bohl and van den Bos, 2012), by incorporating the findings of two generally distinct types of cognitive processes useful for characterizing social cognition (Satpute and Lieberman, 2006; Lieberman, 2007; Adolphs, 2009). We suggest that this account of social cognition is limited in the extent to which it fully elaborates on the prospects for and limitations of direct social perception.

      To address this limitation, we draw from a complementary set of theories that have not yet been fully integrated. As such, our aim is to extend accounts of social cognition by leveraging advances across disciplines to provide a multi-level and multi-theoretic description of social cognition that can also be informative to the integration of conflicting views in embodied cognitive neuroscience.

      This will, necessarily, mean that the following paper will cover theoretical breadth rather than depth as we acknowledge that multiple approaches are needed in order to attempt a more holistic understanding of social cognition. Table 1 provides an overview of the scope of the theoretical approaches addressed in this manuscript in accord with Repko’s (2008) guidelines for theoretical integration.

      Specifically, Table 1 is included here to detail the major theories that contribute to the overarching framework, key assumptions from each viewpoint, level of the framework where each theory provides insights, and the associated underpinning mechanisms of social cognition. Each of these is elaborated on throughout in more detail. We assert that the integration of these perspectives will ultimately lead researchers to consider a more holistic approach to the science of social cognition and further the contributions of the radical embodied approach.

    395. Bobp says:

      Breastplate 3.27pm. You can rest assured that your opinion is absolutely spot ifs no buts.

    396. Bobp says:

      Just Google, mi6 bugging EU.

    397. Welsh Sion says:

      Alexa* even! 😀

    398. CameronB Brodie says:

      I posted some neuropsychology there on individual perception and social cognition, but it appears to be stuck in moderation. No worries, here’s some “International Theory”. 😉

      Individual rights and the democratic boundary problem

    399. Heart of Galloway says:

      Predictably you do not address my two key points: neither the vital importance of the Referendum Bill which will be accelerated when parliament reconvenes, nor the issue of trusting the ScotGov to deliver. Quelle surprise, mon ami.

      And I need no lectures from anybody on the importance of my European citizenship, which I cherish more than words can express.

      To stress again, The EU cannot come to Scotland’s aid until the U.K. ceases to become a member state. Then, and only then, will Scotland’s lifeline activated with the EU IN ADVANCE come into play.

      And mark my words Breeks, the ScotGov will tell the Electoral Commission to GTF with its blatant attempt to gerrymander the IndyRef question and timing.

      One more thing son – I am no flag bearer for the SNP.

    400. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m in the groove so here’s one that might be of interest to legal scholars persuadable towards supporting Scottish independence. I think it might also entirely disarm the woke-set. 😉

      Liberal Constitutionalism: Re-thinking the Relationship between Justice and Democracy

      3. The Politics of Consensus

      While Waldron holds that a political order may be justifiable even if a morally wrong political order may follow, Jürgen Habermas and John Rawls (whom I discuss in this section) are concerned with how thicker assumptions can provide a justifiable framework for a political and legal order. Both are aware of the significance of diversity, and both seek to present the elements of a political order that would be justifiable to everyone given diversity and pluralism.

      However, if Waldron?s approach was too weak in the end, the approaches advanced by Habermas and Rawls seems to be at the opposite end of the scale in that they assume rather strict and strong requirements for a justifiable political order. My discussion in this section does not aim at a full treatment of these thinkers? ideas about the role of reasoning in relation to politics. My treatment of both Rawls and Habermas here is rather cursory, but it does take issue with some of the aspects of their theories commentators have often found questionable.

      Nonetheless, I do not claim, or aim for, a wholesale rejection of their theories. What I aim for instead is to point out some potential difficulties with their theories that are relevant for discussing the role of reason in liberal constitutionalism.

    401. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breastplate says: 20 August, 2019 at 3:27 pm:

      ” … Robert Peffers, I don’t believe it is possible in this political climate for the SNP to keep secret any plans they have from the British Establishment.
      It would be remiss of the British secret service not to spy on the SNP and make it their business to know every tactical trick they have up their Scottish sleeves.”

      Yeah! Of course the British UK/English Security Services have plants in the SNP, (and they ain’t Aphalandras), but don’t you think the SNP have also got sleepers in the UK/English Security Services?

      So what would you do if you knew that there were sleepers in the SNP if you were the First Minister? I know what I’d do if it were me. I’d first of all not tell anyone what my plans were – NOT ANYONE – but I’d drive the Westminster Establishment mad too.

      The way I’d do that would be to not show the slightest sign of being worried in any way, or being worried about every other thing except BR UKExit and I’d get certain members of my close team to act as if they knew something and give the impression they did know something that the English/UK security services didn’t know.

      Now I ask you, does Nicola Sturgeon show the slightest sign of being worried? Then I ask you this, “Does Ian Blackford give any signs of thinking Scotland will NOT be ending the United Kingdom if there is a BR UK/England exit?

      No – me neither. Not to mention that Nicola has also said there will be an inderef2 with or without a section 30 Order.

      There are a few other legal facts also and I’ve posted them often. Legally the United Kingdom is just what it says on the tin – A United Kingdom – constituted by the Treaty of Union and that treaty is an international treaty and there are only two signatories on the treaty document and both kingdoms in that treaty must be equally sovereign in order to have signed up to an international treaty together.

      The Treaty is composed of many Articles of Union and legally every article of union is, in itself, a legally binding agreement and one such article states that both the English and the Scottish, “Rule of Law”, (legal system), must remain forever independent. The reason why is because these two Rules of Law are incompatible.

      The reason for that incompatibility is because each kingdom of the union has very different sovereignties. In England the monarch of England is legally sovereign and always has been sovereign, but, (since 1688), the monarchy have had to legally delegate their sovereignty, (Divine right of Kings), to the Parliament of England. The English Problem is that Westminster’s last parliament of England sat and put itself into permanent recess from 1 May 1707. and thus the way Westminster from that day illegally assumed that Westminster was the continued parliament of England with sovereignty over Scotland but Westminster is not the continued parliament of England it is the United Kingdom Parliament.

      In Scotland the people of Scotland have been legally sovereign since before the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320, and Scotland thus made the Scottish Claim of Right in 1320 and have made that Claim of Right several times since. Recently Westminster MPs abstained on a vote on The Claim of Right in effect waving the claim through the division lobby.

      Now Westminster can hardly concede the Claim of Right, (The Scottish People’s Sovereignty), and then deny the people of Scotland the right to end the Union and most recent opinion polls show a majority of the people of Scotland want Scottish Independence.

      Quite frankly I do not think that Nicola is worried because she may have plans to gain independence via international law.
      Perhaps this sounds far fetched?
      The technology and capability to do so already exists.
      The British State are in possession of the technology and the capability to utilise it efficiently.
      The SNP are seen as a threat to the U.K.
      That threat has increased in recent times.
      It is quite logical to believe that the British State will use any means they can to keep the U.K. intact. It is after all, their job to do so.
      It is my view that the British secret services know more about what’s going on in the SNP than Nicola Sturgeon as they will be privy to conversations within the party that she has no knowledge of.
      We may not know but there are no secrets the SNP have to wrongfoot Westminster.
      This is of course my opinion but please let me know if my logic is flawed in any way.

    402. Lenny Hartley says:

      Mike cassidy Spooks and Technology , back in a previous existance I managed an IT dept for a major Global american Oil service company.
      One of the guys that worked for me was Ex Gchq , I knew this before I employed him as he was upfront at the Interviews that he was previously a spook, he had suffered a nervous breakdown and left Cheltenam to come back to Scotland. In the mid nineties he told me what he did in the Eighties including following known players in the middle east around the towns they lived via Real time satellite and other methods. Remember this was over thirty years ago decades before the World Wide Web became available to most with the advent of ADSL (Broadband) as it was known then.
      Before then it was just sado’s with a modem or if they were lucky a ISDN line that shared data with strangers on the Internet. It perhaps is not well known that the most popular Mail Server in the World – Microsofts has a built in back door so that security services can access the data.
      Thevptoblem they have is the shear volume of data so thry trnd to just target folk of interest or pick up on keywords or phrases used in Telephone conversations.
      The technology they have now is incredible.

    403. Welsh Sion says:

      Of spooks and others …

      Every time I used to phone my widowed mum back home in Wales from here in England (and speaking Welsh) we both regularly heard unexplained ‘clicks’ on the line.

      Now she lives with me, so no more phone calls home. No more ‘clicks’, either.

      – Member of SNP and Plaid Cymru
      (Open secret)

    404. CameronB Brodie says:

      Round and around, the ragged rascal ran. There be a shiver in those timbers.
      Round and around, the ragged rascal ran. There be a shiver in those timbers.
      Round and around, the ragged rascal ran. There be a shiver in those timbers.
      Round and around, the ragged rascal ran. There be a shiver in those timbers. 🙂

    405. CameronB Brodie says:

      If I’m not already a person of interest, why not? 🙂

    406. manandboy says:

      Mr Johnson, the UK Prime Minister, from his lofty seat atop the English Ruling Class, believes himself entitled to teach the 27 member States of the EU, a thing or two about negotiating, by demanding the Backstop be deleted, otherwise the UK will leave the EU on October 31st.

      For their part, the 27, plus Scotland, only hear the disrespect, the arrogance, and Boris Johnson’s personal mix of lazy thinking coupled with entitled fantasy. Slowly shaking their heads, the EU must be contemplating how much longer they might have to endure the abnoxious English Establishment.

    407. Lenny Hartley says:

      Welsh Sion back in the 80’s when the NSA station at Edzell used to listen into phone calls on behalf of GCHQ when on the phone to friends outside of Aberdeen (They only had technology to monitor trunk calls outside a city then) we used to drop in the odd “code” word and you could hear the click and whirring. We used to have hours of harmless fun until they jailed a pall on trumped up charges. He was held on remand but released without charge after a few days but it took the wind out of our sails 🙂

    408. Ken500 says:

      What a load of rubbish about ‘zoomers’ Absolute rubbish. Neil McKay already has form for telling lies and just making things up. Just a load of lies. Do not take notice of it.

      At SNP meetings any newcomers are totally welcomed. The members are totally glad when members turn up or join. It spreads the load. It is usually the same stalwarts who turn up and keep the branches going. Ordinary people across the board. The reason the SNP administration is so successful is because it is funded by the members. Ordinary people who want Scotland to be a better place.

    409. Dr Jim says:

      Good evening and now for tonights news

      Bad people are committing crimes, fat people are eating too much and not moving their arses, people should be paid more money, Nicola Sturgeon is responsible for it all, and they worked that into every story

      Do nothing FM and you’re accused of not caring, do something FM and you’re accused of being a Nanny state

      Isn’t it funny not a single story about the NHS, public transport, mental health, crumbling something, those areas must be doing fantastic, that’ll be on the next news I’m sure

      Oh aye I nearly forgot no deal Brexit to devastate the oil industry *in Scotland* because we’ll be buying Russian oil

    410. TheItalianJob says:

      @Robert Peffers At 6.10pm

      Hi Robert. I always read your posts and find them enlighting and very informative. Especially on your responses to the so called “Independitas” on here who always criticise the SG Government.

      Thing I find interesting regarding the Act of Union.

      Why did Scotland give up its Parliament and also let the U.K. or English Westminster Parliament take control of its revenues and especially taxation.

      How can one of two so called equal signatories to an Act of Union sign away it’s wealth to another nation since 1707.

      Completely baffled how Scotland kept its own laws, education etc but not the right to its revenues generated in its own country.

      We raise so much of our own revenues one give them to the U.K. Treasury and get a pittance (Barnett formula) back in return.

      Like one of my work colleagues (English) said to me a couple of years ago. Scotland is in trouble now the oil price has collapsed. I replied. It’s not Scotland that’s in trouble but the U.K. Treasury as that’s where all the revenues go. Not a penny of Oil revenues go to Scotland.

    411. Ottomanboi says:

      A note from history.
      Based on the notion that conditions were right for Bolshevik style revolution to potentially break out there, Lenin is said to have called Glasgow the Petrograd of the West. The British establishment believed so too.
      In January 1919 troops and tanks were deployed in the city. There was no revolution, lacking the requisite leadership, there had just been the semblance of one.
      The British establishment could relax. The Petrograd of the West returned to being the Second City of the British Empire.
      Appearances can be so deceiving.

    412. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Lenny Hartley at 6:47 pm.

      You mentioned,
      “Welsh Sion back in the 80’s when the NSA station at Edzell used to listen into phone calls on behalf of GCHQ…”

      You may find this of interest. At the end of the post, there is a link to the pdf you can peruse or download.

    413. Doug says:

      Sorry, too thick to Archive, but this is an excellent article by the Irish Times about Johnson’s arrogance and ignorance towards Ireland:

      What happens in Ireland remains important to what happens in Scotland.

    414. Doug says:

      Consulate worker held in mainland China wearing a Saltire badge?

    415. stewartb says:

      Doug @ 8:05 pm
      You wrote: “Consulate worker held in mainland China wearing a Saltire badge?”

      I believe this explains it: ‘Simon Cheng Man-kit, a trade and investment officer at the Hong Kong consulate’s Scottish Development International section ..’ (From The Telegraph online, 20 AUGUST 2019 • 12:25PM)

      Scottish Development International is the international arm of the Scottish Government and Scotland’s enterprise agencies, Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise.

    416. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 17:29 (19.Aug),

      I believe you are right on that. Or to be precise, you will be right on that as soon as the Referendum Bill becomes law.

      The Bill proposes that any referendum question previously asked has precedence and does not need to be “cleared” by the Electoral Commission anew in a future referendum on the same issue. So I presume that the EC is now getting antsy that they will be neutered on attempting to interfere next time round.

      As if they have earned our respect with their robust =cough= defence of the electoral process of late. I weep for them.

      But I really do want to see the Bill become law on speed dial as soon as Holyroood reconvenes. No more slow-mo preparations for IR2 sometime maybe in a year’s time.

      Near a year of “Henry VIII” powers in London hands, don’t forget. They probably won’t need the Electoral Commission after Halloween.

      This year’s Halloween, that is…

    417. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Doug says:
      20 August, 2019 at 7:46 pm

      Sorry, too thick to Archive,

      No a sympton of cantbebothereditus. lol Hompage pop url into bottom space press search if there is no arhive click i want to save then save on redirected page. Less time than blowing your nose, atchoo.

    418. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I have mentioned this before but “The Internet Archive” is a better site for archiving, because…

      At ‘’, the archived page can be over-written by a newer version. Peeps who regularly use ‘’ will be familiar with the message, ‘This page was archived… Do you want to over-write it? (I’m paraphrasing here.)

      The Internet Archive captures the page – and it can’t be overwritten. Any changes to the page are added to the database, not used to delete an earlier capture.

      Check it out.

    419. Dr Jim says:

      Here is you news at 9pm on the Nine

      Nicola Sturgeon refuses to put on her Marigolds and clean Moray council’s public toilets, she also refused to appear on the Nine to answer that charge, they said

      Eh, but Derek McKay did give Moray council an extra £11 Million to hire somebody on top of the £111 million they already got leaving only a funding gap of 3% out of the Scottish government’s funding reduction from UK of 6%

      The Nine had a rather convoluted way of avoiding telling folk that

    420. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      SilverDarling at 11.21 AM
      My my. What an infantile post. And Neil McKay. Who he nowadays?

    421. call me dave says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Thanks for the link.

      What a wealth of information not to mention one I dip into from time to time.

      ‘Old Time Radio’ (All the stuff in one place)

      Dragnet: Burns and Allen : Jack Benny : X-MINUS ONE + zillions more.

      I might be gone for some time! 🙂

    422. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Heart of Galloway @ 17:55:

      The EU cannot come to Scotland’s aid until the U.K. ceases to become a member state. Then, and only then, will Scotland’s lifeline activated with the EU IN ADVANCE come into play.

      This is a misunderstandin based on nothing more than wishful thinking. The EU cannot come to Scotland’s aid until it is independent, period. The EU is as bound by the diplomatic niceties after Brexit as it is beforehand.

      Although it is true that the EU will no longer be bound to respect the UK’s wishes as a member state (which is indeed worth something), it will be obliged to continue to respect the UK’s standing as an internationally-recognised sovereign state, however much it may sympathise with us and our position.

      The EU knows nothing of hoary old arcane UK constitutional theorising and cares even less. It recognises political facts-on-the-ground, one of which would be a referendum in which a majority of the people of Scotland exercise their constitutional right to be independent, after which London would no longer have any right to act on our behalf.

      The EU will certainly reach out a helping hand, but first we have to save ourselves. And the longer we hesitate and wait, the more time a newly-unfettered London will have gained to thwart us.

    423. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 21:20,

      Amen to that.

      The “Wayback Machine” is a great resource, it just requires people to (have) had the presence of mind to archive stuff when it’s “live”. And not just web pages – if you’re lucky you can even use it to recover deleted software patches. for example.

    424. Dan says:

      manandboy says: 2019 at 9:25 am

      Dan, your a saint!

      No, I’m a idiot for thinking that within the context of several of my posts where I archive your direct links to unionist rags in an attempt to stop giving traffic to those that oppose our aims, anyone could possibly think my offer to archive links later when I got home was serious and not sarcastic.

      Alert readers might have noticed the comments below the line actually appear in chronological order, therefore adding a post with an archived link after an earlier appearing post with a direct link is kind of pointless as folk reading btl may well click the original link as they will have read that post first. Unless of course we are relying on folk having their monitors upside fucking down and the ability to read inverted text.

      I hereby retract my previous statement that archiving isn’t rocket science.
      Scotland is Big Enough, Scotland is Rich Enough, please endevour to allow us to honestly say Scotland is (by mastering the seemingly highly complex and confounding aspects of basic copy and pasting) Smart Enough. Is that Fair Enough?

      NB: Comment is made in humour but borne out of frustration at this ongoing issue.

      Cheers BDtt for that archiving site link again. I know you mentioned this before but after a cache clear and update I lost it, rest assured it’s now bookmarked.

    425. Moonlight says:

      Please correct me , but I believe that in Spanish speaking countries Halloween is known as “La noche de las muertas” or night of the dead. How appropriate for the Johnson cartel who are certainly brain dead.

    426. Footsoldier says:

      Do those asking questions on history ever think of buying one of the thousands of books on Scottish history?

    427. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Daisy Walker @ 12:54,

      A worthwhile summary, worth repeating. I share your sense of urgency, and concomitant frustration. We must be the only independence movement that has ever existed where some are telling others to shut up and leave everything to the leadership*. As if that leadership existed in a vacuum in which the actual voters’ thoughts, hopes, opinions and ideas didn’t exist – or didn’t matter, which is even worse. (Or had to be funnelled into some longwinded bureaucratic procedure unavailable to ordinary folks.)

      *(There were the Stalinists, of course. but they weren’t an independence movement.)

      And you didn’t even mention the upcoming “Henry VIII” powers, a democratic loophole as big as Loch Lomond which can be turned full on us after this coming Halloween without limitation.

      OK, maybe we will have an upcoming UKGE, but one that will likely (and deliberately!) be timed to take us over the cliff edge, thus to precious little avail.

      Why anyone who truly wants independence can be totally sanguine about this dire situation right now absolutely stumps me. Maybe there’s a Cunning Plan just waiting and ready to be set in motion at a moment’s notice, but from where I’m standing it seems no more substantial than a hope for Divine Intervention!

    428. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland –

      Hear hear.

    429. Thepnr says:

      Eventually all the optimists that support Independence will be driven from Wings by the pessimists who will then be left to drown in a pit of despair that they themselves have created.

    430. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is plentiful public law to liberate Scotland, it just needs an opportunity to consider the evidence and a sympathetic interpretation that values stuff like temporal justice rather than tradition. IMHO. 😉

      International Relations Theory


      Postcolonialism interrogates a world order dominated by major state actors and their domineering interests and ways of looking at the world. It challenges notions that have taken hold about the way states act or behave and what motivates them. It forces us to ask tough questions about how and why a
      hierarchical international order has emerged and it further challenges mainstream IR’s core assumptions about concepts such as power and how it operates.

      Postcolonialism forces us to reckon with the everyday injustices and oppressions that can reveal themselves in the starkest terms through a particular moment of crisis. Whether it has to do with the threat of nuclear weapons or the deaths of workers in factories churning out goods for Western markets, postcolonialism asks us to analyse these issues from the perspectives of those who lack power.

      While postcolonialism shares some common ground with other critical theories in this regard, it also offers a distinctive approach. It brings together a deep concern with histories of colonialism and imperialism, how these are carried through to the present – and how inequalities and oppressions embedded in race, class and gender relations on a global scale matter for our understanding of international

      By paying close attention to how these aspects of the global play out in specific contexts, postcolonialism gives us an important and alternative conceptual lens that provides us with a different set of theoretical tools to unpack the complexities of this world.

    431. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      What about the optimists who’ve already left – or don’t bother to comment any more – because they’re not the right ‘kind’ of optimists?

    432. Essexexile says:

      I had no idea who Neil Mackay was until I followed the link from the Rev’s twitter but I have to agree with that particular article.
      It’s a minority of obnoxious dicks in the Yes movement who are stopping support getting any higher.
      All we need from these people is an X next to Yes when the time comes. Until then, just STFU please.

    433. Robert Peffers says:

      @TheItalianJob says: 20 August, 2019 at 7:18 pm:

      ” … How can one of two so called equal signatories to an Act of Union sign away it’s wealth to another nation since 1707.
      Completely baffled how Scotland kept its own laws, education etc but not the right to its revenues generated in its own country.”

      Not a hard question to answer, TheItalianJob, but it is a long story but every word truth.

      Before the Treaty of Union The Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England had been involved in wars caused by the English Navigation Acts. These had involved England in wars throughout Europe and were a contributory factor leading to the American War of Independence.

      In 1651, the Commonwealth of England was ruled by the Oliver Cromwell Parliament. There was also, “The English Civil War”. So Westminster wanted to assert their authority and they also badly needed money and one of the best ways to raise funds was through international trade but England faced very stiff competition in that area.

      The Dutch then were masters of the sea and they dominated trade, especially in England’s colonies. Dutch ships, called fluits or flyboats, could ship colonial exports more cheaply, offer a greater variety of imports, and generally provide a level of reliability England could not match.

      So the Dutch had the lion’s share of the market and thus the lion’s share of the profits. Which made Westminster angry. Westminster and Cromwell wanted to seize the benefits of their colonies’ trade, (which was why they had colonies in the first place – to make money off them.

      The Navigation Acts, they thought would eliminate or minimize the Dutch competition. So after the Acts Dutch ships could no longer pick up colonial exports or bring most imports into England and the English colonies.

      By the Navigation Acts Westminster was also trying to work out a practical application of one of its most favourite economic theories. That is, “mercantilism, which first became popular in the 16th century and operated on these principles:-
      Control trade as much as they could.
      Make sure England exported than it imported.
      Settle as many English colonies as they could to insure a steady supply of raw materials and a steady market for finished goods.

      This caused wars, particularly with the Dutch but they also applied the Navigation Acts to Scotland. These wars left England with massive national debts. It did, however, result in the great expansion of the Royal Navy and of the English Mercantile Marine, (now you know the origins of that great English patriotic song, “Rule Britannia”. However, as the crown and parliament got progressively into national debt the English Merchants became progressively richer due to the Navigation Acts.

      Step forward the London Scot, “William Paterson”, who we subsequently identify as in the employ of Sir Robert Harley – England’s spymaster.

      Westminster asked for ideas to help out with the national debt, probably a set-up, and Paterson’s scheme was chosen. The scheme asked for subscriptions from the public to bail out the crown/parliament. It was obviously aimed at the merchants who were made rich by the governments Navigation acts that also left the parliament/crown in debt.

      This scheme also led to the instigation of the Bank of England which was granted a Royal Charter by a grateful parliament.

      So Scotland had no national debt and Scotland was not bankrupt as English re-written history would have us believe but Scotland did have three or four years of drought and bad harvests. So it was the Scots landowners/parliamentarians who were bankrupt not the Kingdom of Scotland.

      Just a few years later William Paterson turns up again in Edinburgh and is getting those Scottish Landowners/parliamentarians signed up to The Darien Expedition and the English Parliament ordering the Royal Navy and the soldiers of the King to not aid the Scottish expeditioners. Looks very much a set-up to me.

      Then we again find Paterson, and his friend Daniel Defoe, (another of Harley’s spies), operating in Edinburgh bribing, blackmailing and threatening the hard-up landowners/parliamentarians to sign the Treaty of Union. Not to mention English troops massed on the border and an English fleet lying off the Firth of Forth.

      Now that tale has got a rather familiar sound to it – has it not and it can all be verified – for example Defoe’s letters back to Harley in Westminster are still in the English Archives. And Scots wonder why they do not get taught Scottish History in Scottish Schools.

      We raise so much of our own revenues one give them to the U.K. Treasury and get a pittance (Barnett formula) back in return.
      Like one of my work colleagues (English) said to me a couple of years ago. Scotland is in trouble now the oil price has collapsed. I replied. It’s not Scotland that’s in trouble but the U.K. Treasury as that’s where all the revenues go. Not a penny of Oil revenues go to Scotland.

      Tell you what, TheItalianJob, have a wee look at this page from the Wings reference pages:-

      look at the dates on this chart and the money England was skimming out of Scotland:-

      This oil thing is just the latest of their scams.

    434. Thepnr says:

      I’m an optimist for sure, also a realist. I hear the news from yesterday about the Electoral Commission putting obstacles in the way of another referendum so I choose to do something positive about what could be a potential setback.

      I did some research and emailed someone who will know a lot more than me as to whether the information I found was worthwhile or not in fighting the Electoral Commission. That’s positive action taken on negative news. There really is little point wallowing in self pity because you THINK that nothing is being done.

      Get out and do it yourself then if you feel the need for “action” and stop depressing everybody else. Hahaha, you do have to laugh sometimes though. Theres Breeks who now wants a crowd funder to take the Scottish government to court for not taking the UK to court over EU membership.

      @Breeks, why don’t you do it then, get your own crowd funder going but you won’t now will you. Your target anyway should be the UK government and not the Scottish government, why is that?

      I realise that I haven’t answered your question Ian, fatigue plays a part but avoiding the everyday hassle posting on Wings now seems to bring probably plays a bigger part.

    435. Ken500 says:

      The Tories in Moray were so bad they gave up the administration. They refused to put up the Council tax and cut services. Then they all fell out with each other. Typical. The same at Westminster,

    436. Robert Peffers says:

      @cynicalHighlander says: 20 August, 2019 at 8:59 pm:

      ” … No a sympton of cantbebothereditus. lol Hompage pop url into bottom space press search if there is no arhive click i want to save then save on redirected page. Less time than blowing your nose, atchoo.”

      In any case we do not want to stop the Irish Times earning a penny or two- they aren’t the MSM and seem to be on our side.

    437. Balaaargh says:

      Red Tories out leafleting my neck of the woods tonight. Looking at the photos on the leaflet, I think it might have been the WM PPC.

      Some cracking quotes: usual “Tartan Tory” garbage which never gets old; local SNP following their masters in Holyrood; SNP & Tory groups working together to deliver cost and job cuts; public services, local communities and peoples’ quality of life being sacrificed at the altar of separation from England (actual quote there!)

      The kicker is the section “written” by Richard Leonard, I’m typing it in full because I suspect others amongst you might be getting similarly worded blobs of garbage and it might be useful to compare (particularly the last paragraph):

      “The SNP is a party of austerity and they have failed local services.

      They have chosen to cut the grant for local council services by 7.5 per cent over the past five years, despite their grant from Westminster being cut by only 2.8 per cent This is a political choice – and they have chosen to turbo-charge austerity and make local communities pay the price. They refuse to use the powers they have to invest in local services our communities need.

      Last year, the SNP Government underspent (sic) their budget by £450 million.

      That is money our schools, our health services and communities desperately need.

      What would we do differently?

      Scottish Labour would invest in our communities and Labour Governments in the UK and Scotland would see public services like housing, health and education given the investment and support our communities need.

      I have visited Bo’ness many times and have always been struck by your town’s proud history and community spirit. I know that you will not allow these SNP plans to go ahead. Neither will Labour. Labour is with you all the way.”

      But not dedicated enough to our local community to use a local printer it seems as the leaflet was printed in Kilsyth.

    438. Dr Jim says:

      Why doesn’t anybody believe Boris Johnson doesn’t have a plan, because all the London politicos are trying constantly to work it out, so they’re convinced he has a cunning plan and if anyone else thinks even for a second that Boris Johnson has a cunning plan then why hasn’t Nicola Sturgeon got a cunning plan

      Some say Boris is just playing poker, others say he’s timing a General Election, and more are convinced he really does know what he’s doing

      I’m just puzzled as to why people think the only people who can do scullduggery are the UK lot

      I’m an optimist and I believe our SNP lot can be just as if not even more devious than the UK lot

      The English always seem to have more faith in their leaders than we do in ours, maybe that’s why they win more

      We nearly won 5 years ago that’s no mean feat and in political terms that’s like yesterday, we’re getting another shot at it, this never happened in the whole of our history, we’re going to win this, I’m totally convinced of it, and what’s more important the entire Yoon population of Scotland are convinced of it as well or they wouldn’t be so damn panicky mental over it

      Apologies for writing *cunning plan* a lot, it just sounds so durty sweary

    439. CameronB Brodie says:

      Circumstances have certainly changed since 2014 and not to the benefit of Scotland. Some folk simply take longer than others to recognise and accept a change of mind is in order. The media will attempt to marginalise the concept of self-determination, which is kind of undeniable so must be hidden from public consciousness. They will also aim to terrify the less informed but their power is much diminished. You can’t stop a people talking among themselves and deciding what is in their best interests. Well you can, but I don’t think Westminster has the balls for it, frankly.

      Epistemic Injustice: Power and the Ethics of Knowing

    440. Famous15 says:

      How does Neil Mackay know that the objectional Yessers are the real deal or more likely these anonymous persons are employed by the purple ink Tories?

      Asking for a friend’

    441. Thepnr says:

      This is what the Union man said. We will not listen or believe.

      Thanks to Michael McCabe from Off Topic for the tune 🙂

    442. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      Many of us here have met you in person and already know that you’re an optimist. But no-one can be described in one word.

      I’m intrigued by your use of the words ‘fatigue’ and ‘hassle’. If I guess correctly, you, like me, get weary of doom-mongers, nit-pickers and nay-sayers. That’s understandable. Who wouldn’t get fed-up being surrounded by negativity and being subjected to dire warnings every two minutes?

      That’s where the actual real-life trolls come in. We’ve become quite good at identifying them over the years but there’s no way we can ever hope to finger them all. (Genuine Sad Sacks are another matter altogether, they can easily be ignored.)

      But there’s another category of commenter which generates division and upset, very difficult to counter, and you know exactly who I’m talking about.

      They’re zealots.

      WOS is important to them because it provides the biggest platform available right now, as it has done for several years. Theirs is a tricky job to be sure – they must be careful not to overstep the rules of this place whilst dismissing and belittling the genuine concerns of posters whose worries just happen to imply any criticism of the SNP/SG.

      This place is not SNP/SG property, and no-one has the right to stake it out as such. I will not be browbeaten into accepting a version of reality which bears scant resemblance to what I can perceive with my own senses, and even if I’m wildly wrong I insist on airing that concern. If that makes me a fifth-columnist, a ‘("Tractor" - Ed)’, or even just a pessimist, so be it.

      WOS has always been a place where indy supporters could air such concerns and expect meaningful responses. That may cause fatigue for those of us who’ve been around a long time, and it may, as you said, become a ‘hassle’ dealing with the same shit day after day, week after month after fuckin year. Aye. But the points I’m making are, to me, as boring and obvious as they were five, six years ago.

      And you know me. You know me well.

      Am I really a pessimist?

    443. Dan says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says: at 10:13 pm

      Why anyone who truly wants independence can be totally sanguine about this dire situation right now absolutely stumps me.

      It’s probably because so many folk just aren’t political anoraks that have the time to watch all the ongoing machinations and really understand the direction the UK is heading.
      You’ll recall I mentioned the lad I bought my bike off that was chuffed to see the pics I sent him of the Oban AUOB march and YES Bikers. He is pro-Indy but was completely unaware of all the ongoing Indy activity such as the huge AUOB marches.
      I keep in touch and sent him several pics from the weekend’s YES Biker run and Aberdeen AUOB event, which again he was chuffed to see as it hadn’t been covered on MSM news to any significant degree.
      Today I dropped off some of my surplus veg with him and gave him a heads up re. the Perth AUOB event on the 7th September. He knew nothing of this planned event in his home town.
      Likewise during the day I met up with half a dozen other folk at various times and handed them the AUOB fliers. They also knew nothing about it, even though they use social media and are predominantly for Indy.
      Off the back of that I’m now working my way through my personal contacts and some other acquaintances I know that have their own social circles to raise awareness and give them all the opportunity to attend the march.

    444. chicmac says:

      ‘The English always seem to have more faith in their leaders than we do in ours’

      There May be a Major flaw in that argument. 🙂

    445. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 22:47,

      Optimism isn’t generated spontaneously out of nowhere, it is created by having a plausible way of achieving a genuine need. That is what inspires. Alternative ideas for making progress can help, because they explore the problem space, and might light upon a better answer. Stu’s (arguably premature) suggestion for tackling the AMS list is one such example.

      OTOH, staying silent – even worse, actively suppressing ideas – and simply relying on events working out in a satisfactory way, doesn’t inspire, because it isn’t obviously controllable, and therefore isn’t plausible. You might as well believe in magic, or fairy dust.

      People wanting across a fast-flowing river are (rightly) reluctant to simply jump in and chance a swim. Asking them to wait patiently until the stream diminishes of its own accord simply doesn’t convince. Have a workable plan to build a bridge, though, tell everyone about it, and oh, will they come!

    446. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @chicmac –

      Hat-tip sah!


    447. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      “Am I really a pessimist?”

      Nah, I’d say your more of a battered optimist. I’m also a battered optimist because it’s a hard go to battle on everyday through all the negativity and crap that comes from the government and the absolute shit excuse we have for a media in Scotland without getting down about it.

      Wings should be different though is how I see it, I understand that people have to get their disappointment off their chests and rant at something but that’s what wives, husbands, brothers and sisters are for LOL.

      Pre 2014 there was little of the negativity we have now, of course not because we had a date for a referendum and an Edinburgh Agreement so it was going to happen. We were all POSITIVE about our chances and that raised the Yes vote substantially despite Project Fear.

      My worry now is that we are actually in front in the polls since immediately after the 2016 EU referendum when people had a knee jerk reaction and on Wings instead of pushing that support upwards there are the usual suspects using their negativity to drive any positive enthusiasm back into the ground.

      You wondered about “the optimists who’ve already left – or don’t bother to comment any more” that might be because the pessimists are winning. My own view is that this is some thing that must change, you cannot increase support for Independence by constantly slagging off it’s main proponents and its leader. that’s the job of the MSM yet there are more negative posts on Wings about the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon than there are positive by a mile. Anyone that does speak up for the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon is a sycophant, fan boy or worse.

      Absolute shite. this is an Independence supporting site and the ones that should be getting stick are those slagging off other Wingers who support the SNP.

      These arseholes have no solutions of their own but they’ll be back tomorrow with more “words of wisdom” that in reality are absolute mince dressed up as sirloin steak LOL

      Yes, fatigue sounds about right.

    448. James Barr Gardner says:

      Balaaargh says:
      20 August, 2019 at 11:18 pm

      But not dedicated enough to our local community to use a local printer it seems as the leaflet was printed in Kilsyth.


      Kilsyth way back in the sixties was full of masons, you could’nt join the golf club or the bowling club if you were not one.

      The lodge at that time was very strong as it was one of the few places in Kilsyth where you could get a pint as Kilsyth was DRY ! Hence the waiting list to join, young bright sparks destined for well paid jobs were well up the queue to join, however nowadays a job in Poundland and your in !

      No doubt like the tory party at large in Scotland the average age of these so called apoltical printers/masons are well into their sixties, a dying breed, within 5 to 10 years they will be seen as an anachronism of the past.

      Hopefully especially in a Modern Progressive Independent Scotland meritocracy will decide how you get jobs rather than than a nod or the secret handshake !

      Like LieBore masons are controlled from London, they are all part of the City of London Cesspit, royals at the top of the heap !

    449. Arthur Thomson says:

      It would be ludicrous for the SNP or us in the Independence movement to imagine that we could keep secrets from the Brits. The Brits are ALWAYS on a war footing. They are constantly tooled up to uncover secrets, to put out endless propaganda and impose themselves on other people. It is at the very core of their misplaced pride in their supernatural ability to single-handedly win world wars; to plunder and destroy and yet be able to claim the moral high ground.

      They believe themselves to be exceptional – despite the mountains of hard evidence in front of their eyes – that they are actually fourth rate at best. But they discount it. It cannot be. It is false news.

      Their conceit is their fatal weakness.

      The Brits really are Soooooooo clever. Those Europeans too, will soon understand that. All their secret communications are being intercepted and they might as well give the Brits exactly what they want now while they still can.

    450. Dr Jim says:

      @Thepnr 12:05am

      That about sums it up, too many folk writing off the team before the game’s played because the manager didnae pick the players they wanted or the strategy they demanded so they throw their hands up in misery before a ball’s kicked and practically demand defeat so they can be proven right

      I’d rather be optimistically wrong while trying to win than miserably happy about I told you so defeat

      We’ve had one vote and now we’re getting another chance, what’s not to like, who else in history has ever done this much for Scotland within five years

      Ach ahm away tae raid the fridge and eat something nice

    451. chicmac says:


      Please give Broadcasting Scotland a try. Honestly, you will hear more informed and intelligent and in depth output from there than you will in a month of watching BBC Scotland or STV.

    452. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      If you havent already seen it, this is worth a watch.

      I’m totally grappling with the implications…

    453. chicmac says:

      ‘from there in an evening’ I meant to write.

    454. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Just watched it Ian, holy shit the UK is not in a good place right now is it. Is it works out as I believe it must looking at Scotland and Northern Ireland and the problems yet to happen in England.

      Boris Johnson and his Tory party are heading for the stank, unbelievably they are ahead in the polls even now. How fuckin stupid are people lol yeah I know but still.

      I don’t know who that lassie was in that clip but she’s more sensible than the whole Tory cabinet. We live in dangerous days.

    455. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 23:24,

      I for one don’t believe Bojo has a plan, I think he’s just winging it! (Pun intended, sorry =grin=) I’m not especially alone either – more and more people are wising up to that, I reckon.

      Plan: Do nothing, get Brexit over by default, blame the EU, and take his chances in a UKGE to reap whatever credit, before reality intrudes. That’s about the sum of it.

      Thepnr @ 22:47,

      Ach, I’ve said it before, what we really need is just a bit more humour. Particularly satire directed at the London Clown Circus. Laughter can be more devastating to a forlorn political position (like Unionism) than whole screeds of earnest verbiage. And is much more fun to deliver, at least for those with the necessary talent.

    456. CameronB Brodie says:

      Given liberal democracy is grounded in consensual reason and the rule-of-law, the belief that the full-English Brexit resembles a democratically justifiable mobilisation of popular political power and constitutional authority, is rather thin and appears unsustainable. From the perspective of Scotland and N. Ireland, anyway. Subsequently, those living in Scotland and N.I. can not hope that Brexitania will be a liberal democracy that is responsive to Scottish or N.I. needs and ambitions.

      Given the full-English Brexit’s impending threat to Scotland’s social fabric, self-determination for Scotland is a rational means of mitigating social harm and is the right choice for those supportive of their individual well-being and the common good.

      Summary – Accountability in modern government: recommendations for change

    457. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT, but I don’t want to clog up OT and I see the press are continuing to deliberately misrepresent the GRA debate. This is a form of symbolic violence aimed at undermining women, and is essentially the way Scotland is treated by most of the press and media.

      Pardon me ladies.

      Body Politics and Women Citizens
      African Experiences


      The concept body politics in the title of this volume and of the Cape Town conference refers to a feminist tradition of taking women’s bodies as the starting point of political commitment or research. The experience women have of their bodies, the interpretations they make and the knowledge they acquire in their everyday lives constitute the basis for how they craft their citizenship.

      It can be said that body politics is the negotiation of power via the body. The concept body politics is also used in order to analyse how state policies create (or do not create) space for women’s agency, and how political discourses construct individual and collective women’s bodies. Further, at the global level, the concept of body politics is used in analysis related to international agreements and the global division of labour. The body is always subject to social, cultural, economic and political definitions and policies are based on these perceptions….

      ….There are academic and activist debates as well as public discourses on women’s rights, both as human rights and in terms of citizen rights. Given the gross overlapping it is surprising that the theoretical debates are held quite
      separately within different disciplines, with law scholars dominating the human rights discourse, while citizen rights have mainly been a concern of political scientists.

      Human rights scholars emphasise that rights are indivisible
      and universal, while political scientists focus on political rights often specific to citizens of a nation. By applying the body politics perspective and using women’s everyday life experiences as a departure point, this volume continues
      feminist scholars’ efforts to transcend disciplinary divisions.—african-experiences_300.pdf

    458. twathater says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood 11.43pm Well said

    459. Breeks says:

      Heart of Galloway says:
      20 August, 2019 at 5:55 pm
      Predictably you do not address my two key points: neither the vital importance of the Referendum Bill which will be accelerated when parliament reconvenes, nor the issue of trusting the ScotGov to deliver. Quelle surprise, mon ami.

      No, you weren’t paying attention.

      The vital importance of a referendum bill is only as important as a referendum, which isn’t required when Scotland already has a democratic mandate to reject Brexit and an acknowledged constitutional status which makes that mandate a sovereign edict which cannot be overruled, because it’s sovereign.

      Tell me, once we’re scavenging for food in the post Brexit wasteland, when you’re having your “vital” referendum in 2020, what will make it more sovereign and binding as a democratic mandate than the emphatic democratic and sovereign mandate to reject Brexit in 2016 which has been roundly ignored and subjugated not only by Westminster, but by our damned Government too? Precisely why do you expect the referendum result to stand, after a referendum result in 2016 surrendered the principle of sovereignty and capitulated to respect the will and super-majority of Westminster? Strange how nobody ever answers that question. “Quell surprise”.

      Or is it perhaps your view that Scotland only has fair weather Sovereignty? It’s only sovereign when it suits, and when the will of the people coincidentally chimes with the will of the SNP? My, my. What a thoroughly British perspective on government…

      Theresa May espousing the Scottish Constitutional doctrine that the people are sovereign and the Brexit vote must be respected, whereas in Scotland, where the people actually ARE sovereign, our own damned government is shovelling the English doctrine down our throats that the Scottish Government is in a position to set aside and overrule the emphatic democratic will of the people, or, in other words exercise “Parliamentary” Sovereignty.

      What is truly more vital than a referendum that is too long overdue and cannot now save Scotland from Brexit, is having a Scottish Government which finally grasps an essential understanding of what Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty means, and uses it to protect and defend our nation from subjugation and colonialism imposed on us by Westminster. They have 10 weeks left to do it.

      You want me to cheer for a referendum AFTER the event? That’s like cheering the SNP Fire Brigade which twiddles it’s thumbs for three years watching smoke billowing from the rafters, but doesn’t plan to turn up until a year after your house burns down. Trust them? Err, why? They don’t even seem to grasp the essential roll of a fire brigade.

      You think it’s tiresome to be so negative? Awe, diddums. Why not spare a thought for Scotland’s Constitution, misunderstood and maligned for over 300 years, gets to within a whisker of release, only to have its hopes dashed by a Scottish Government of all things, prostrating itself beneath Westminster’s superiority and demanding to see Scotland’s Sovereignty’s superfluous democratic credentials.

      I believe that Scotland is a Constitutionally Sovereign Nation. My narrative doesn’t change because both sovereignty and truth are binary and absolute conditions which ought to be respected, not tarted up to suit the fickle expediency of any political party.

    460. Sinky says:

      BBC Gms radio 7am news shows their bias when they describe Gers as figures on independence rather than state of Scotland as part of the UK

    461. Heart of Galloway says:

      Robert, have a look at the video of Nicola Sturgeon’s meeting with European Commission president Jean Claude Juncker on June 11.

      Two things stand out: the crass planted question of the UKOK journalist asking why NS was being accorded effective head of state status, and the warm body language between the two leaders

      Two hours later Jeremy Hunt withdrew consular services from the FM out of sheer spite – an act which did not go unnoticed by EU leaders.

      The summit, the latest of several, came four months after NS opened the Scottish Government bureau in Paris – to the impotent fury of our imperial masters.

      You think these events are for nought? That the conversations between the FM and JCJ went no further hat “Il fait beau aujourdhui, n’est-ce pas?”.

      I do do not “misunderstand” anything Robert, nor indulge in wishful thinking.

      Scotland through its government has already created diplomatic ties to the EU, moves which have incensed our British nationalist opponents.

      And they will be the foundation for the aid to which I was referring the second the UK leaves the EU. If the EU, as you claim, was “bound by the diplomatic niceties” it would not have welcomed the FM in the teeth of UK Government opposition.

      Of course, as you state “it will be obliged to continue to respect the UK’s standing as an internationally-recognised sovereign state.”

      But after the treatment it has to endure at the hands of an arrogant and dismissive UK Government, just as Scotland had to endure, the prospect of gaining a prosperous, egalitarian nation commanding an important strategic postion on its north western Atlantic seaboard, one with massive natural and renewable energy resources, and one which voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, will be a far bigger player.

      So aid will be offered, possibly in the form of a concord or declaration that Scotland, because already meets all necessary criteria, will be offered the prospect of becoming a member state in short order if we say ‘aye!’ to independence.

      And that, my friend, will be a absolute gamechanger in the indy ref campaign.

    462. Ken500 says:

      This thread is far too long.

      Neil MacKay does not know a thing about SNP meetings. Just tells lies about the SNP, like a lot of people. The Herald nonsense. Total lack of facts and figures.

    463. Dorothy Devine says:

      Sinky , the day the BBBC in Scotland does any honest reporting you can colour me purple.

      I caught the dishonest piece on the Nine last night – with that twice tremendous emphasis on the invitation to Derek McKay being refused – and thought what a half information piece it was.

      Reminded me of the old colonial style of half educating the natives and preening about it , telling the world how benevolent we were while nicking their family silver.

    464. Ken500 says:

      All the Eastern European countries were helped to Independence by the EU and German reunification. Scotland gained (limited) Devolution because it had less democracy than the countries in the former bloc. The EU/UN principles of self determination helped with the cause of Devolution/Independence and will do again. The ECB gave these countries loans and grants. The larger wealthy counties help out the smaller poorer ones.

      The EU originally established to stop wars and starvation in Europe has been successful. It still upholds these principles. The UK causes the mess. The EU has to sort it out at great cost. It was only closer ties with Europe which made the UK more prosperous after Thatcher/Tories utter mess and devastation. The deregulating of banking causing the banking crash. Then Labour illegal wars etc. They Westminster imbeciles caused the worst migration crisis since 11WW.

    465. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:21 August, 2019 at 12:01 am:

      ” … People wanting across a fast-flowing river are (rightly) reluctant to simply jump in and chance a swim. Asking them to wait patiently until the stream diminishes of its own accord simply doesn’t convince. Have a workable plan to build a bridge, though, tell everyone about it, and oh, will they come!”

      As we are, apparently, on the old supposed wisdoms, Robert J, you quote the above but my old Granny had a saying about those faced with the problem of crossing a stream. It went like this, “Dinna try the depth o a burn wi baith feet.” Furthermore, before going to the expense and bother of asking engineers to bid for contracts to build bridges, have a look upstream to see if there may already be a bridge or a ford.

      On the same theme may I point out there is said to be more than one way to skin a cat. Personally I’m not in a position to judge either the feasibility of building bridges nor have I any experience of skinning cats.

      I believe, though, that there may be a moral in there somewhere. Perhaps it is that we should leave solving problems to those with proven relevant skills.

    466. manandboy says:

      Steve Bullock on Twitter on Sovereignty. The thread is worth a read, particularly in light of Scotland’s own sovereignty, much neglected and ignored by England, and barely known about at all in Scotland. It’s called Colonial suppression.

      “It’s an abiding mystery to me that those that profess to care so much about sovereignty as a matter of deepest principle seem to be so deeply offended by Ireland and other EU member states exercising their own sovereign right to make decisions based on their own interests.”

    467. Hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’s links here:

    468. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:21 August, 2019 at 12:01 am:

      ” … Optimism isn’t generated spontaneously out of nowhere, it is created by having a plausible way of achieving a genuine need. That is what inspires.”

      Meant to ask in my previous comment, did you get your e-mails from the first minister yet?

    469. Robert Peffers says:

      Now here’s a thing – BBC pushing like mad that the GERS Report undoubtedly, definitely and certainly shows that Scotland has a great big black hole in its finances and would be in great trouble without the hand out they get from English taxpayers

      I have only one comment to make about that – Every figure in the GERS Report is a guesstimate so who is making the guesses and just a reminder that, right or wrong, whatever Scotland’s current financial situation that situation was achieved under Westminster’s financial control.

    470. Robert Kerr says:

      Indeed Mr Peffers,

      It’s the Union Dividend!

      Better Together!

    471. Dr Jim says:


      Completely Rubbish Approximation of the truth not by the Scottish government politicians you vote for but by the British civil servants you don’t


    472. Heart of Galloway says:


      Your doom-mongery has gone to warp drive, I see. And you say we don’t need IndyRef2. Right.

      Back in the real world, if you actually talk to dozens of ordinary folk a day – that’s part of my job – you find IndyRef2 is not just expected, but desired.

      That’s why the British establishment is so desperate to stop it by whatever means, including enlisting the supposedly neutral Electoral Commission to their project. Because they know they will lose.

      Yet you give them succour. And you still bodyswerve the issue of whether you trust the ScotGov to deliver or not.

      As for the rest of your ‘look at me’ rant, I would refer you to my post at 7.34am above. Scotland’s EU membership will be the defining factor in IndyRef2.

    473. manandboy says:

      Let’s be quite clear, mindful of the other ‘No voting’ half of Scotland, of one abiding law of human existence. It is that Scotland will be infinitely BETTER, NOT TOGETHER with England.

      It is a sobering thought that British Colonial propaganda is most effective among the educated and professional classes in Scotland. One might have expected them to know better. Their intelligence, education, success and life experience, has made no difference to so many, who have succumbed so readily and so easily to British brainwashing. 1

    474. Doug Bryce says:

      We all know why GERs is nonsense figures (basically being used for purpose not intended).

      However what caught my ear on radio this morning is that for first time they published figures for Wales. Apparently its supposed GERs deficit is x2.5 that of Scotlands 🙂

      Of course an equivalent figure calculated for England will never be published.

    475. Effijy says:

      BBC and GERS a complete joke!

      Claims of Scotland having a black hole in its economy
      Despite knowing through Tory Ian Laing’s leaked memo
      That GERS is only there to support skewed figures that will
      Promote Westminster’s hand in Scotland’s pockets.

      How about the English black hole as only they can borrow money
      and have generated a £3 TRILLION Debt that they want Scotland to share.

      I believe every nation in the EU had black holes and debt and Scotland would
      Soon become like Norway that has no debt due to their oil fund.

      GERS. Grossly Exaggerated Reports & Statistics.

    476. Effijy says:

      What are the GERS figures for Northern Ireland?
      Will they include the £500,000,000 they wasted on
      Fuel pellet subsidies, the £1.5 Billion keep Tories in
      Power bribe, the back hander Millions to rebuild their
      Historic town centre Bank Building that went on fire?

      Pro rata their black hole must be 10 fold of Scotland’s
      But when Westminster needs stats hidden or distorted
      They have a willing uncivil service ready to do their biding.

    477. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Doesn’t the GERS figure actually say that the Union is destroying Scotland’s finances.
      That this is a result of Scotland trappped in a bust UK.
      And that we have to get out before we sink with the rest of it.

      That is our response.

      I cannot imagine that the case for the union is ” “You are reduced to an economic basket case. Better stay with it.”
      But that is what it actually is saying.

    478. Dr Jim says:

      You rent a house from the council, the council says they’re putting new radiators in the house, that’s nice you think but the radiators are working fine, then the council increases the rent for the house, you complain, the council says they upgraded your house for you, you say no, you upgraded your own property that I pay rent for and I didn’t ask for new radiators, the council says somebody’s got to pay for it, you say I already am paying, council borrowed money to upgrade something I was already paying for then charged me more money for a council property improvement scheme which will never be mine and my money benefitted the radiator company that the council owns

      That actually happened to me and it’s just like the GERS figures, money you didn’t borrow for something you didn’t need but are forced to pay for it by an entity who owns the property

      As long as England owns Scotland they’ll always tell us they need to borrow money for our own good whether we like it or not and they’ll always own the radiator company, it’ll never stop

    479. ScotsRenewables says:

      Oh dear. Poor wee Scotland with its terrible burden of worthless oil…

      If this technology come to anything we are back in McCrone territory.

    480. Capella says:

      Just got round to reading Neil “I’m a Yes voter (believe that if you like) Mackay describe us all as “zoomers” – A “zoomer” is social media slang in Scotland for a political extremist, a conspiracy theorist, a hate-peddler – someone who comes across as downright crazy. They’re Trumpian. They’ve that hardline Brexiteer venom and nastiness.

      After a long preamble detailing the faults of the YES supporters with twitter accounts – not obviously MSM journalists with full page platforms – he gets round to the real object of his “venom”: Wings Over Scotland and the proposal to form a political party for the regional vote:

      The pro-independence website Wings Over Scotland has floated setting up its own political party. It seems that a significant minority of Yes supporters see this as a good thing. On social media, the site is known for trolling, abuse and insults.

      Is it?

      So insulting and smearing YES voters in newspaper columns is OK.

    481. Giving Goose says:

      The completely obvious thing with GERS and the supposed black hole in the economy is to let Scotland run the economy instead.


    482. call me dave says:


      Great link. Thanks

    483. Dr Jim says:

      @Cappella 10:04am

      I just read all that as well, interesting to note that the BTL comments from Unionists are under the impression that Scotland and the UK are two different entities giving themselves their truth to their idea that England is the UK and Scotland is a satellite territory or region of that entity whose opinions should be discounted because Scotland is not an actual country therefore subservient to England which is the UK

      It appears that anywhere within the British Isles that doesn’t agree with England is discountable on the grounds of being inferior to the self titled UK of England

      Very soon the Brit Unionists will be paying heavily on all fronts for this dismissive attitude to people, and you know what, they’ll still not take the blame for what they’ve done, they’ll blame everybody else when the economy goes down the tubes and folk get angry and make things go bang

    484. Tam Fae somewhere says:


      Thanks for that link. Assuming that can be done on a much larger scale it would effectively reset the North Sea oil clock back to day zero!

      That oil fund could be huge if we escape the U.K. and run it ourselves!

    485. galamcennalath says:

      Norway’s national accounts don’t look like GERS. Doesn’t that simple fact tell BritNat supporters something very fundamental and obvious? Just how blinkered to you have to be not to see London rule has been an utter failure and outrage?

      Legacy UKOK supporters, today is that annual day when the evidence that you are backing the wrong team is laid before you!

    486. call me dave says:


      Auntie wie a kilt no sure what to say regarding the GERS figures. Not as bad as expected an improvement.

      I knew Douglas Fraser’s heart wasn’t in it this morning when he was setting the scene for us.Just mouthing his script.

      Scotland has no debt! All agreed way back before the 2014 referendum. 🙂 g

    487. Sinky says:

      GERS figures 2019 can be downloaded as a Pdf at

      Page 26 shows Public Debt Expenditure (interest on UK national debt) of over £3 billion and an Accounting Adjustment of £5 billion?

    488. Doug Bryce says:

      GERs figures are a joke…

      There are many issues : however there is no requirement for Holyrood to balance the books. By design the Scottish government has limited tax raising powers. Spending is set strictly by Barnett formula. They can’t control imaginary deficit – even if they wanted to. Basically Scotland doesn’t have full fiscal autonomy.

      The very obvious flaw in GERs is that it compares figures for devolved Scotland with UK. However whole-UK figures are complied using entirely different methodology. Like comparing apples with oranges (as no equivalent GERs figures are ever released for England for comparison). A total scam.

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