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Wings Over Scotland

We don’t see no ships

Posted on October 19, 2017 by

With the matter of the UK government’s orders for warships to be built on the Clyde having been such a vexed and contentious one over the last few years, you’d think that any significant developments in the story would be big news in Scotland.

So yesterday, when it was revealed that BAE systems definitely wouldn’t be building the five cheaper Type 31 frigates – which had replaced the originally-promised Type 26s – in Scotland, in a move which the shipbuilding unions described as a “betrayal”, we sat back and waited for the Scottish media’s outraged blanket coverage.

We didn’t really, of course. We’re not idiots.

Because despite the move being announced in a press release yesterday morning, the papers appear to have taken a vow of silence. So far as we can tell not a single one – other than the pro-independence National – features the story at all in their print editions, and most don’t even have an online piece.

The Daily Record – nothing in print or online

The Scottish Sun – nothing online (print unconfirmed)

Guardian Scotland – nothing online (print unconfirmed)

BBC Scotland – nothing online, or broadcast that we’ve heard, or in the Scottish papers review either, despite it being on the National front page.

(The BBC does, however, know about it. If you look under News > England > Regions > North West England > Liverpool, you’ll find it in a piece which makes no reference to the previous promises to build the ships at Govan.)

STV News – nothing online (that we can find – bizarrely the website has no search facility), or broadcast that we’ve heard

Scottish Daily Mail – nothing in print or online

Scottish Daily Express – nothing online (print unconfirmed)

The Scotsman – nothing in print, though as we were writing this article an online piece appeared at 11.19am.

The Times does have an online piece (which weirdly claims that the three Type 26s so far commissioned for Scotstoun will keep the yard in work for 20 years), but the only paper in the entire country that we can confirm as having anything in print is the Herald, which commendably devotes half of page 2 to the story.

It’s a doubly remarkable oversight when you see the feeble stories that HAVE made the front pages. The Record splashes big on someone’s 47-year-old granny taking an unscheduled trip to London, STV leads with a ban on smacking, the Express thinks the biggest news in Scotland is Theresa May spending 10 seconds giving a half-arsed defence of Douglas Ross at PMQs, and the Sun, bless its heart, goes with “BOOZY BRANSON TOUCHED MY WIFE”.

Then again, we suppose most of the papers would face some pretty uncomfortable introspection were they to honestly report the latest episode in the ongoing collapse of a pledge they all blared loudly and stridently during the indyref and afterwards.

The categorical, unequivocal, unambiguous promise that a No vote would secure “13 Type 26 frigates” has slowly crumbled in stages to “eight plus five cheap ones”, then “three plus MAYBE five more later plus five cheap ones”, to just “three with a possibility of another five at some undefined point in the future”, with negotiations for the contract not due to even begin for another half a decade. If we worked for BAE on the Clyde, we wouldn’t take on any expensive mortgages.

You might even call the shredded order book “scraps from the UK table”. Or at least, you might if you ever heard about it in the Scottish press.

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  1. 19 10 17 12:57

    We don’t see no ships | speymouth

  2. 19 10 17 22:56

    Frigates: The broken pledge that shames the Scottish media – Towards Indyref2…

225 to “We don’t see no ships”

  1. bobajock says:

    Dad they’re going to take me to task.

    Soon they’ll be shipbuilding for Scotland only.

    We will need patrol vessels to pick up the English refugees swimming to get around the wall that the English will surely build.

    If not, we should build one.

  2. heedtracker says:

    Today is a classic example of how all UK media propaganda actually works, in their Scotland region. Text book stuff, page one of the BBC propaganda manual, say nothing, but SNP bad.

  3. Macart says:

    I think most folk who read or follow indy sites won’t be stunned by either HMGs betrayal (falls under ‘that’s politics’ and an Alistair Carmichael shrug), or indeed the meeja’s current silence on HMGs betrayal of those workers.

    How and ever, those workers will notice and so will their families and their friends and the friends of their friends and so on.

    Just so the press know? Silence is every bit as damning as open complicity. So let’s be clear on this. There are no people’s champions or people’s watchdogs in the media world. There is only self and mutual interest. Whenever some title tells you it stands beside or behind the people? Think board member – football manager and you’ll get the gist.

  4. Thomas Valentine says:

    You would think these were the kind of political stories that anyone who chose a profession of journalism desperately wanted to write. Not tittle tattle and celebrity background noise.
    It’s like when women only got to write about lipstick and hemlines. Now Scottish journalist don’t get to write about real stuff and the rest they produce is just a fantasy, distortion or lies.
    What a horrible miserable existence.

  5. thewaterbeastie says:

    Given the level of breakage amongst the No campaign’s pledges, perhaps we should be reframing our terms of assessment.

    So…did any of those No campaign promises/threats actually get delivered on?

  6. John Lowe says:

    Also note no mention of Universal Credit debate or the storming speech by Mahri Black or the 55p charge being removed.

  7. Breeks says:

    There’s a design flaw with the radar signature of these ships anyway.

    Even my crude, home-made tin foil hat and long range radar coathanger is telling me these ships will all reappear on the horizon in the weeks before the next IndyRef. What kind of stealth capacity is that eh?

  8. Muscleguy says:

    Maybe Anas is secretly dyslexic and every time he was looking for a fish supper and though the signs said Batter Together.

    Though you would think that after so many fruitless visits he might have twigged that that chain was nae good?

  9. Clydebuilt says:

    Some where over recent months I read that Fergusons in Port Glasgow were being invited to tender for MoD work. . . .

    Translated into the truth

    Ferguson’s were being invited to become entrapped , to allow Wesminister to decide when and if to give them work. . . . Finally to decide When the yard should close.

    Jim McColl don’t fall for it!

  10. K1 says:

    Between Sarwars denial that he was a fully engaged No voting mouthpiece for Better Together and the complete lies and fraud dutifully plastered across all Scottish media in 2014 regarding the frigates and their deafening silence today as the lie finally gets exposed. It’s really no wonder that the msm are not trusted by half of Scotland and never will be again. Time for the other half to wake up.

  11. paul gerard mccormack says:

    Right then, to quote that arse, john Reid who majored on this in 2014, we’ll just ‘have to re-double our efforts’

    Mibbes jackie Pravda Lady Haw Haw should re-double her efforts and get an interview with John?

    Aye, right. Thought so.

  12. cuilean says:

    Hearts of Boak

  13. Andy-B says:

    This is a crystal clear example that shows the media and press are pro-union, and to a degree anti-Scottish.

    As I type this BBC Scotland Shortbread news is about to run a story on how ferry prices have doubled in a decade in Scotland, in a dig at SNP governance.

    But no mention of the Type 31e ships, BBC Scotland news are a disgrace, not fit to broadcast the news in Scotland.

    Roll on independence.

  14. Giving Goose says:

    The Union representatives and activists who sold this lie to the shipyard workforce should be publicly outed for the complete fools that they are.

    These Union Reps have totally let down the very workforce that they are supposed to represent.

    If I were an employee in the shipyard I’d be absolutely fuming and be knocking on the office door of these buffoons.

    However, I do wonder if the workforce is actually militant enough to make some public noise about this. I suspect that many of them may be bonded by loyalty to their union jack underpants.

  15. schrodingers cat says:

    would be good if indylive were to stand outside the gates and interview the workers , especially those on film supporting bt in 2014

    the gmb will disappear and say nothing

  16. heedtracker says:

    These Union Reps have totally let down the very workforce that they are supposed to represent.

    Unions in the UK today are effectively just part of management.

    Its the pinnacle of Thatcherite and the Gordon Brown anti union economics. Most top union guys are earning the same as their management, enjoying same managerial perks etc. You can see it in how Corbyn’s got absolutely nothing to say about UK unions anywhere.

    They’re not boat rockers, no pun intended.

  17. I got news of this from the National…..the remainder of the Scottish MSM reflect their usually typical unionist position on this and others

  18. call me dave says:


    Beat me to it there!
    “The ships will be on shortbread” I said to her as I took over the tele for a minute or two.

    “Are you happy now” says she as the Ferries were getting Auntie’s slant on things about what the SG are doing wasting public money.

    “No! The warship contracts on the Clyde… we’re not getting” I says

    “Oh! What warships”? says she 🙁

    As for Sawar…he’ll probably dupe enough folk to win. FGS!

  19. Proud Cybernat says:

    Hey Govan shipbuilders – they didn’t give you much of what they promised, did they? In fact, they didn’t give you much at all. But look on the bright side – if you don’t have much then you don’t have much to lose.

    You YES yet?

  20. Well, Ian Davidson won’t need to bayonet the wounded now.
    He was the man who asserted that if Scotland voted Yes, remember he chaired the WM Scottish Affairs Committee that produced 13 documents of lies and threats on behalf of his Unionist Masters, that a clause should be included in the BAE contracts that the work be moved South as a ‘punishment’ and the Scots Yards closed.
    What a fucking vicious little runt this man is.
    Remember Liar Carmichael visiting Portsmouth and declaring that they would be ‘best placed’ to steal the work from Scots yards should we vote Yes.Thye Secretary of State for Scotland,FFS.
    Scots born tractors, who betrayed their fellow citizens for WM gold..fortunately we kicked Davidson out on his arse.
    Well, Johan, Mags C, Murphy, I expect to see and hear you all on the Yoon MSM being ‘critical’ about this latest insult to Scotland.

  21. Dr Jim says:

    It’s all an oversight

    Just like Scotland

  22. Macart says:

    @call me dave

    Oh, I wouldn’t be too down in the mouth about a Sarwar branch managership. In fact, in many ways he IS the ideal candidate as far as both the SG and independence movement are concerned.

    Pretty certain there’s a host of indy sites and bloggers who would be deeply happy if Mr Sarwar got the nod. 😉

  23. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Fellow Wingers, please, do not read the below the line comments on The Scotsman’s story about the frigate orders.

    I did, apparently, not giving the orders to the Clyde is all the SNP’s fault, and another case of: “SNP Bad”.

    Where do these Scotsman trolls come from?

  24. airchie says:

    You can use google to search the STV News site.

    Google “frigate” and you’ll get the hits. 🙂

  25. Arbroath1320 says:

    So we started with the LIE in 2014 of 13 Type 26’s to be built on the Clyde.

    After the referendum in 2014 we suddenly found out that the LIE about 13 Frigates had mutated into a LIE about 8 Frigates.

    The latest news, if we can call itnews personally I just call it the latest LIE, is that 3 Type 26’s are to be built on the Clyde.

    I have just one question. How much longer will we have to wait before we are told the Type 26’s have been scrapped … due to austerity and there being no such thing as a money treee you understand. 😀

    On a serious note though can ANYONE working in the Clyde shipyards STILL believe a word that comes out the mouths of the Lying and Bullshit party sorry Tory party? 😉

  26. Proud Cybernat says:

    The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that what we are actually witnessing with this UK Gov decision is an emerging realisation in WM, a tacit admission that the Union truly is finished, that Scotland will most likely vote YES in IndyRef2 to return full powers to its own parliament at Holyrood.

    They absolutely KNOW how damaging BREXIT is going to be for Scotland – so bad, in fact, that they dare not publish the report that lays it bare. They covered up good news in the same way (McCrone Report). If it is good or bad economic news for Scotland, they cover it up, try to keep us in their precious Union by keeping us in the dark over its failings.

    BREXIT has finished the Union and they are beginning now to tacitly admit it. That’s why these ships have been reallocated to Merseyside. They know what’s coming.

  27. When Scotland becomes independent, she will need a number of patrol vessels to keep an eye on all those hundreds of miles of coastline.

    We will have fishing grounds to protect (which will be rather large and a magnet for “get rich quick” owners of redundant fishing vessels on the English East coast). We will have shipping lanes to monitor. We will have a full-time job preventing incursions into our waters from unsavoury types (like traffickers of narcotics, humans, fags, booze and all manner of dodgy items from far flung fields) and we will have to keep an eye on the occasional boat-load of refugee’s sneaking in from our former partner in the great “Union of Equals”.

    We will also require more fishing vessels (those newly repatriated fishing grounds won’t fish themselves y’know).

    As an outward-looking, friendly state, we will be building bridges, not burning them. Our tourist industry is already booming and I’m sure there will be more opportunities for access to Scotland by sea – so a fleet of new ferries may well be required. Cruise ships might be on the cards too – we have formed some rather strong bonds with the Nordic countries and the Northern Isles are already firmly on the map as a port of call for existing cruise liners.

    Then there is the prospect of shifting all the goodies we make here in Scotland – and how we might import what we need too. The obvious answer would be expansion of the existing ports on the East and West coasts to handle bulk containers – and of course, we would need custom-built ships to transport our exports to the markets in Europe and beyond. (I’m assuming we would still be a member of the EU, so all those tariff-free trade agreements we enjoy at the moment will still hold – shame about the hassels flogging our whisky to England, but nothing is perfect).

    All things considered, our shipbuilding industry should recognise the MoD are taking the piss – and playing the long game, designed to run down the viability of the Scottish yards and ultimately fill the resulting void with their preferred manufacturers in Merrie Englund.
    After all Britannia waives the rules.

  28. Macart says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    “Where do these Scotsman trolls come from?

    Years of cultivation I should think and look what it’s done to their sales and readership. They’re the authors (literally) of their own downfall.

    They willingly opened the doors and set their own ‘moderation’ standards in an attempt to stifle online independence support and tbf it worked for them. It also crippled their sales and credibility in a time of decline for newsprint. (shrugs)

    Their choice.

  29. Andy Anderson says:

    Bastards……….that it, says it all.

  30. Lenny Hartley says:

    Arbroath1320 recently a BAE employee in Glasgow and blamed all the uncertainty on the SNP , I kid you not. Hard to find some sympathy for some of theses Yoons.

    O/T the boss at Goldman Sachs which is HQ’d in London, has just tweeted, Great meeting in Frankfurt, great people , glad I’m going to be spending more time here, or words to that effect. These large companies in the City of London must have fairly advanced plans to move by now, we are always told that business does not like uncertainty, even if the Maybot got a deal with Europe there will still be uncertainty as the kippers will be stirring things up. I reckon that a lot of them will now be moving out of London come what may(bot)

  31. Craig P says:

    Brexit – tick. Shipyards – tick. The Vow – tick. Just waiting on the pound to tank then we can call house on indyref broken promise bingo.

  32. Yerkitbreeks says:

    Maybe the promise was based on an imagined Unionist takeover – for comparison we await the huge benefits accruing to Catalonia as Madrid shuts it down

  33. winifred mccartney says:

    Lack of coverage of this on BBC and MSM says all we need to know about the media. They constantly prove to all of us that they are just an arm of the state and in the hands of moguls who have too much to lose if we knew the truth.

    We have a job of work to do informing everyone we can of their deceit and lies.

  34. Macart says:

    I see some folk online taking the line that HMG didn’t assure diddly for the Scottish yards, or offer threats on anything.

    Easy to check.

    So we’re clear on that now m’kay?

  35. Jack Murphy says:

    Main Article;
    “….BBC Scotland – nothing online, or broadcast that we’ve heard,……”.

    Just business as usual at BBC Scotland.
    Don’t inform or educate.

  36. Alba Jock says:

    A slap in the face? Not to me it ain’t. I never thought from day one that WM could or would follow through.

    The people who believed these liars are the fools! Unless we do it ourselves there will be nothing left for us here in Scotland.

    What is better? Being in charge of our own destiny or happy and content with constantly believing the establishment. I personally hate liars with a vengeance and I hope the ones who believed in the Three Stooges and their promises !think again”.

    Problem is they can’t see passed there nose and the BBC.

  37. Ken MacColl says:

    Watching the politics show on BBC at noon I was intrigued to see a representative from Russia Today being interviewed quite aggressively by Labour Peer (?) Lord Adonis,with considerable support from Jo Cockburn in the chair, about the alleged bias and control from Putin’s government of Soviet media.
    The complacency and presumption of the supposed supremacy of our press and broadcast media is increasingly obvious to more and more hapless Scottish consumers and is well illustrated by the evidence presented above

  38. Clootie says:

    Shipyard workers and Fisherman still trust Westminster. It doesn’t matter what actually happens they still keep their loyalty to the liars of London and their representative sheep in Scotland.
    We have the naive aligned with the bigots on a base of the fearties pensioners.

    …and the sad thing is they will clutch at the straw promises next time round.

    I can only hope that the young take the chance we denied them as I fear my fellow Scots do not yet believe in their ability to build a better nation. The Brexit fiasco should have had the public demanding a second referendum. The fiscal cuts and Trident renewal should have converted the dumbest.

    …what will it take?

  39. jfngw says:

    All I can say to the Rev is, regarding his wee black book, ‘you’re going to need a bigger book’. The Unionist MP’s laugh away making a hew-haw sound whilst handing out donkey ears to No voters.

    As for Rep Scot, they are too busy with FOI requests to actually report any actual news. And until it appears as a Labour press release, well it isn’t really news is it.

  40. Petra says:

    ”The Record splashes big on someone’s 47-year-old granny taking an unscheduled trip to London.” Sure their not talking about Torcuil nipping in and out of Westminster, as he’s prone to do?

    No wonder the Media in Scotland is considered to be the most biased in Europe. They’re an absolute DISGRACE and it no doubt accounts for their sales plummeting and individuals having to use sites like Wings to get to the truth.

    The Daily Record, one of the most influential newspapers in 2014, has never been brought to task for the lies that they told the Scots: A whole Nation of people. Lies that certainly influenced the end result, such as their two-page ’13 economist’ spread days before the vote where they omitted to mention that the economists were actually members of a right-wing Think Tank (with never a ‘cheep’ about Joseph Stiglitz). The Purdah breaking ‘VOW’ of course was the biggy. When we get our Independence and have the ability to broadcast the ‘facts’ they’ll be over and out, and don’t they know it.

    Another person of influence was arch-Unionist Jim Murphy, who could give Sarwar a run for his money when it comes to lying and manipulating, who sold the Scots right down the river.

    It’s worth listening to the whole video but if not listen to smart erse Murphy from 5:00 on.

    ‘Portsmouth claims warships – Jim Murphy supports them against Scotland.’

    and O/T

    Jim Murphy bragging about the UK’s contribution to reinstating democracy in Libya. Not surprising when we know that he was such a great advocate of decimating Iraq too.

    ‘HMS Liverpool Visit.’

  41. dakk says:

    It’s on front page of Evening Times.

    Didn’t get to read article to see if it had been spun into SNP bad.

  42. Giving Goose says:

    Proud Cybernat @2.30pm

    You may be correct about a tacit admission that the Union truly is finished.

    In addition I would expect a concerted effort to asset strip Scotland by London, with the willing support of Unionists.

    The oil industry will be on the radar, in fact I wouldn’t rule out another theft of Scotland’s sea. Expect a realignment of the maritime boundary soon, hidden within Brexit political machinations.

  43. Nana says:


    Keep up with the latest news, reaction and analysis as EU leaders meet in Brussels.

  44. Robert Peffers says:

    @bobajock says: 19 October, 2017 at 12:27 pm:

    “We will need patrol vessels to pick up the English refugees swimming to get around the wall that the English will surely build.”

    Why bother, bobajock?

    Most of the Englanders I know, and I worked among them for 50 years, thing the Scottish/English border is at Hadrian’s wall. That means, when they make it over or round the wall they surface again in England. Where the, “British Army”, (English Branch), can round them up and return them to London to help in whatever replaces the former English NHS that will go defunct after BR UKEXIT.

    “If not, we should build one.

    If we do we should build it running North & South, then the daft saps will get over Hadrian’s Wall turn East or West, (as the case might be), and then come across Hadrian’s Wall again and climb back into England. Only then to find themselves back in England to set of round the loop again … and again … ad infinitem.

  45. I’ve being taking a sabbatical for the sake of my mental health since the general election but this requires comment.
    Couldn’t agree more with clothe and I’ll add my own mantra that I’ve lived by since 2014 ” plague and pestilence on all no voters” and he’ll mend all those no voters in glasgow and inverclyde, they really are the thickest of the thick.
    I know we have thousands on here that constantly preach about not saying ” I told you so” and trying to engage with the unenlightened but I for one have ran out of patience with the demographic who would keep us at the mercy of the empire.
    The media are a disgrace and have no intention of changing and I’m fed up imploring the SNP to set their own agenda and to stop playing ball with them.

  46. Capella says:

    How can the BBC mention the frigates. SLab hasn’t issued a press release yet. Neil Findlay and Richard Leonard will be on the phone to the Gumbies as we speak. Hold the front page!

  47. Petra says:

    ”Sure their not talking about Torcuil nipping in and out of Westminster, as he’s prone to do?

    Ooops … spelly mistake … ‘they’re’ rather than ‘their’.

  48. Ken500 says:

    It might be a blessing in disguise. It might free up money (less on Defence) so the Scottish Gov can start building frigates, ferries, supply boats, liners and wind turbines on the Clyde. The Scottish SNP Gov will have to watch them like a hawk. See where the £2,5Billion+ Defence contribution is going.

    £1Billion on Trident, because McCluskey/Corbyn want £1Billion of Scottish revenues spent on jobs in Barrow on Furness. While jobs on the Clyde are cut. £Trident will be going on Brexit when England and Wales leave the EU.

    The international socialists who spent £Trns killing and maiming millions of innocent people. The banking crash. Causing the worst migration crisis since the 11WW but don’t even want to take in 30,000 orphan defenceless children. The red flag drenched in blood. They want to keep it flying. Along with the UJ. The innocent people killed in Ireland. The brutality. Partitioned by Lloyd George a Liberal. The Balfour agreement. 1917 Years of hell. Austerity killing starving vulnerable folk. Dirty little liars. They could have brought May’s Tory Gov down. EVEL vote. 12 Sept 2017. If the representatives had voted as instructed. Her and her parasites would have been gone. Instead of this mess lingering on. Nasty bunch of lowlives.

  49. geeo says:

    @robert peffers..

    When you say the Army will round up those scoundrels climbing Hadrians wall to escape england into…england, do you mean because of this…

  50. Greannach says:

    I wonder if former MP Ian Davidson has hired a room above a pub to discuss this matter with his old comrades like Tom Harris and Margaret Curran. I know there used to be lots more of them in and around Glasgow but I can’t remember their names. Even though they ruled the roost for decades, one room should be enough to hold them all. They won’t need a functions suite.

  51. Its just a pity that Anas Sarwar wasn’t with Better Together during indyref, or we could have asked him what he thought about the ship building promise come threat BT made then.

  52. Arbroath1320 says:

    Lenny Hartley says:
    19 October, 2017 at 2:36 pm
    Arbroath1320 recently a BAE employee in Glasgow and blamed all the uncertainty on the SNP , I kid you not. Hard to find some sympathy for some of theses Yoons.

    You couldn’t makethissort of shite up Lenny and if you did naebdy would believe you. 😀

    Clootie says:
    19 October, 2017 at 3:19 pm
    Shipyard workers and Fisherman still trust Westminster. It doesn’t matter what actually happens they still keep their loyalty to the liars of London and their representative sheep in Scotland.
    We have the naive aligned with the bigots on a base of the fearties pensioners.

    Think you forgot the farmers there Clootie. They follow right behind the fishermen even when they are clearly told they are being shafted by Westminster.

  53. Desimond says:

    2 thoughts

    No-one is surprised, are they?

    The death by 1000 cuts continues.
    First the fish, now the shipyards. No doubt the rest will follow as we edge closer to Brexit and the parish councilling of Holyrood. I give it until July 2018 max before Ruthie has escaped knowing what is coming down the line.

  54. Petra says:


    ‘The biggest Constitutional crisis in Spain since 1978. Rajoy has now invoked Article 155.

    Madrid has imposed direct rule on Catalonia. The local Police and Ministries will be taken over.’

  55. galamcennalath says:

    If you were a conspiracy theorist you would have to conclude that Scottish political reporting was coordinated across the msm.

    This astonishing widespread omission will be just coincidence, of course.

  56. Ken500 says:

    Scotland raises £58Billion in tax revenues. Scotland can easily support the Isles and the Ferries. £2Million. A drop in the ocean and money totally well spent. It actually generated more revenues. If the Isles are booming. It is not a subsidy it is an investment.

    The Scottish Oil sector has been deliberately sabotaged by the Tories. They are incompetent lying bastards. They have been taxing the Scottish Oil & Gas sector at 40% since Jan 2016. Before that they were taxing it at 62% when the price had fallen 75%. Total ignorant incompetent. Malicious affect on the Scottish economy. Scotland Gas lost £Billions. Lost 120,000 jobs. Scotland could have had full employment. Unemployed 103,000. Just despicable.

    They are now doing the same with the Whisky industry. Running it down with illegal high taxes. The Tories are the scum of the earth. May supporting the absentee referee. What a bitch. What a chancer. Abuse of public funds. Fraud. etc. The corruption of Westminster. Just a load of crooks. These bastards will be gone soon. To be replace with what? Another bunch of ignorant incompetents. Independence can’t come soon enough. Get these interfering bastards who no one in Scotland voted for, out of Scottish matters. Evil bastards.

  57. Wullie says:

    Voting No shuts shipyards
    Voting labour shuts shipyards
    Voting for unionist parties shuts shipyards
    Westminster is in the process of protecting workers in England, giving them future scraps of hope in the knowledge that UK exit will be catastrophic. As for Scotland, we will be emasculated.

  58. dandy dons 1903 says:

    This is what happens when you put your trust in the “word” of British Nationalists both here and in whitehall/westminster, you get betrayed and then laughed out of the room by by them.
    Why do certain folks put up with this? @indyref2.

  59. geeo says:

    Warships and war obsessions abound, in the unionist mindset.
    Aided and abetted by tv.

    The following are ALL on right now.
    Discovery Science, Sky channel 525. Did Hitler get to the moon first ?

    Nat Geo, Sky channel 526. WW2, Hell Under The Sea.

    Nat Geo +1, Sky channel 527, Inside World War 2.

    H2, Sky channel 531, Dogfights, (brave pilots attacking at night).

    Discovery History, Sky channel 535, Battlefield

    Jingoism never stops in the mad world of UKOK.

  60. Petra says:


    And onto another site that attempts to combat the biased MSM in Scotland. Like Stu, Professor John Robertson is doing an amazing job. Check out the list of 111 powers that are at stake.


    ‘Scottish Government will say NO to any power grab in the EU withdrawal bill. Up to 111 powers are at risk. Will it make any difference though?’


    ‘Racial hate crimes increase by 33% in England & Wales while falling by 10% in Scotland: Who says we’re not different?’


    ‘The Scottish Tories so bad Ruth wants to kick some of them out and replace them with what, we wonder?’

  61. Al dossary says:

    The workers at BAE generally can not afford to be militant. They tried that at Yarrows in 1993 and went back to work with nothing having lost their morning Tea break for a £300 payment linked to changes in working conditions.

    The pay was so bad that when I worked there in 1996 if you had 2 kids you qualified for family credit !

    I will not criticise the workers in any way, but they basically have been living with the threat of redundancy and closure sInce the 1980’s.

    On the other side of the Clyde was the Fairfield yard, which became Govan shipbuilders, then Kvaerner and finally BAE.

    Since being bought by BAE they have unsurprisingly focused on military builds. Classic asset stripping Tbh by BAE is on the cards. I can envisage the base equipment going down south to Camell Lairds before long and the closure of the yard.

    BAE and he Tories will claim competition and securing security if supply and yet more Scots will be thrown on the dole. Maybe we will even see Harlands & Wolff in Belfast thrown into the mix.

  62. Chick McGregor says:

    @Jack Collatin
    “Well, Ian Davidson won’t need to bayonet the wounded now.
    He was the man who asserted that if Scotland voted Yes, remember he chaired the WM Scottish Affairs Committee that produced 13 documents of lies and threats on behalf of his Unionist Masters,”

    A much more successful body was ‘Scottish Affairs’, a peer reviewed academic journal which acted, de facto, as a primary source of information for MSPs.

    Their archives are no longer accessible unless you pay, but I read many of them on line over the years.

    In my opinion, they successfully kept the true level of support for independence from MSPs at a time 1999-2007 when, on a straight choice of independence versus the status quo it was actually running at 54% yes.

    They did this by not reporting on those polls but instead reporting ‘independence’ support as being that of the ‘Independence in Europe’ option of a multi optioned question, usually from the 5-option SSAS, which generally trundled along at around 28-30%.

    I remember one report in particular which even cited the result of a multi part question in a poll (ICM Jan 2000) which was carried out at the same time and on the same respondents who were also asked the straight yes/no question and which again returned 53%, but instead of giving that result as well they only gave the ‘Independence in Europe’ one (23%) except they left off the in Europe bit in their report.

    I have posted some of those ‘buried’ polls here often.

    You would not expect the SNP to ever admit they were unaware of them, even if they were, because, you know? it would kinda make them look a bit stupid.

    However one of the first things we did when Independence First was launched in 2006 was to email all the SNP MSPs and make sure that they were aware of them and the urls to the on line archives of the polling companies so they could check for themselves.

    Within weeks returning leader Alex Salmond commissioned a poll with just the yes/no option and again that produced 54% Yes (neglecting DKs of course).

    Then the Sunday Times did one, same again and the SNP again another with similar results.

    Sadly, we all know what happened next, the credit crisis, twisted and manipulated by Brown and Darling into being ‘Scottish Banks Bad’ (When in fact Barclays clandestinely had a bigger bail out than HBOS and RBS combined) and support for indy fell.

    IMO that ‘burying’ of poll results was at least as big as the burying of the McCrone Report in terms of thwarting Scottish aspirations for normal levels of self government because if the true level of support for independence had been generally known at the time I believe the SNP and other pro-indy parties would have got into power then and won a referendum.

  63. ScottishPsyche says:

    It doesn’t matter what they promised, does it? That is the whole point, their word means absolutely nothing, they deny every single thing.

    In the bizarre world of Labour rewriting history and denying liability for anything, Stella Creasy is accusing the SNP of being soft on PFI companies.

    That’s right, Labour is attempting the high ground on PFI.

  64. Les Wilson says:

    I am surprised that anyone was surprised.
    However the blanket non coverage by all the english media in Scotland again suggests an organised order not to print.
    YET, until the spin it somehow or when it is old news.

    Part of the great ” we cannot afford to lose Scotland”, at the same time expressing their options to impoverish the Scottish people in any and all ways they can.
    If folk do not know by now that Westminster and all their proxies lie through their teeth by now……..

  65. shug says:

    Misreporting Scotland should run down their van with these real headlines s on the side outside thebbc

  66. Breeks says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    19 October, 2017 at 2:30 pm
    The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that what we are actually witnessing with this UK Gov decision is an emerging realisation in WM, a tacit admission that the Union truly is finished, that Scotland will most likely vote YES in IndyRef2 to return full powers to its own parliament at Holyrood….
    BREXIT has finished the Union and they are beginning now to tacitly admit it. That’s why these ships have been reallocated to Merseyside. They know what’s coming.

    I think you’ve hit that on the nose Proud Cybernat, but Westminster is also playing the percentages. It’s not cut and dried, and they still hope we royally screw it up.

    And until we are, all of us, talking about Independence in terms of what it means relative to sovereignty and who is making the decisions, then I think there is a credible chance that we actually might screw the whole thing up.

    I think we forget sometimes, we have 70 years of SNP plans within plans for Scottish Independence, but we also have 70 years of Unionist counter strategy which knows the same deeper constitutional magic which we do, – the “real game” of Constitutional Sovereignty from the artificial game of claptrap that’s played out in the media.

    Once Nicola and the SNP start telegraphing moves which reflect their full and uncompromising grasp and understanding of Scottish Sovereignty, then that I believe will be the turning of the tide, when we start winning and they start losing. Forget your democratic swings and roundabouts relative to any referendum, in the “real game”, Independence will be all about Sovereignty; who has it, and who doesn’t.

    When ordinary Scots in the street see Independence and European citizenship as sovereign issues, birthrights which they hold in their hands already but which Westminster would see stripped from us, then Westminster will truly know the end is near.

    I know it sounds smug to say so after the event, but you know what niggled me about YES2014? It was too easy. The dafties and Orange Order hadn’t had their tantrums. The BBC propaganda was utterly dreadful but nevertheless still rampant and unchallenged, but most damning of all, the whole Independence debate was still being couched in terms of currency, pensions, oil, Europe and waffle, – small print minutiae. Throughout the whole campaign, it had never once broached the “end-game” subject of Constitutional Sovereignty.

  67. Les Wilson says:

    There should be some big posters put up all around Glasgow,
    ” Here is what the union does for you……………….

    Another thing BAE systems must have been negotiating this event with Camell Laird for months. All the while the Defense Secretary has been lying through his teeth to Scotland.

  68. heedtracker says:

    If folk do not know by now that Westminster and all their proxies lie through their teeth by now……..

    But we Scots live in a wall of mirrors. How much does the BBC Scotland propaganda network alone cost us all, £300 million?

    Yet here’s the English freaking out over a British £9 million donation to the UK Leave campaign last year. Big whoop.

    And same beeb gimp network single handedly made Nigel Farage a household name.

    A Labour MP has said there are “real questions” about how much Arron Banks – the entrepreneur who bankrolled Brexit – is worth as he called on the government to investigate the possible role played by “dark money” in the EU referendum.
    Speaking in parliament, Ben Bradshaw said there was “widespread concern over foreign and particularly Russian interference in western democracies”.

    and yet Scotland got blasted by beeb gimps in 2014 with stuff like,
    Scottish independence: Barroso says joining EU would be ‘difficult’
    16 February 2014
    From the section Scotland politics

    And that’s just the tip of our rolling BBC Project Fear, from anyone at all iceberg.

  69. Bob Mack says:

    Is anyone actually surprised ? Since the upsurge in the SNP support post 2014, the British State for want of a better expression has decided to do just as Spain is doing now in Catalonia. Make it impossible for Scotland to self govern financially and socially.

    There is an ongoing systematic stripping of political power as well as financial mutilation to prevent Scotland ever being free. Take away our ability to improve our finances then use it as proof they were right.

    They are my enemy. I care not if they call it just politics. Anyone ,but anyone who votes for a Unionist Party which is intent on our subjugation can never be my friend.

    Whatever the reason,whatever the excuse, to deprive your country and fellow citizens the right to autonomy borders on criminality. Ask the Catalonia.

  70. boris says:

    Kezia Dugdale In a generalized rant in her column, attacks the human male for their systematic abuse of power over the opposite sex. But abuse of power
    covers many areas of society. Fifi La Bonbon was one such abuser.

  71. Hamish100 says:

    Lochaber no more , Linwood no more…..

    Trades unions for the workers sold us out again for their britnats Tory pals

  72. galamcennalath says:

    Where Spain is cack-handedly rough, the UKOK is quietly ruthless, underhand, and efficient.

    Same result, sabotage of a people’s right to self determination.

  73. Hamish100 says:

    Another thing BAE systems must have been negotiating this event with Camell Laird for months. All the while the Defense Secretary has been lying through his teeth to Scotland.

    …….. maybe he was away on a school trip to argentina

  74. Legerwood says:

    Andy-B says:
    19 October, 2017 at 1:37 pm
    This is a crystal clear example that shows the media and press are pro-union, and to a degree anti-Scottish.

    As I type this BBC Scotland Shortbread news is about to run a story on how ferry prices have doubled in a decade in Scotland, in a dig at SNP governance.

    No BBC Scotland is not going to run a story on ferry fares doubling in a decade for the simple reason that ferry fares have not doubled but have fallen because of the introduction of the Road Equivalent Tarrif by the SG.

    What BBC Scotland, and newspapers, have reported is that ferry subsidies have doubled in a decade which might be expected because of the introduction of RET, which by the way BBC Scotland online mentions in their report on the ferry subsidies.

    The story is based on a report by Audit Scotland on ferry transport costs etc.

  75. gus1940 says:

    It looks as if Cammel Laird are going to become part of the Northern Powerhouse.

  76. call me dave says:

    The last dozen or so posts are all on the mark. Even most Unionists know what the dogs in the Street know and must see how the wind is blowing.

    Some will remain defiant but how many will come across and vote YES and how many will be sickened by WM to not bother voting.

    I hope enough to make the difference next time.

  77. Swiss Perspective says:

    The whole thing reminds me of Dr Suess’s “I can lick 30 tigers today”.
    That is as effective as our broad-shouldered, pooling-and-sharing, best-of-both-worlds London government is.

  78. Auld Rock says:

    Going back to 2014 there are many of us who said it’s a bribe and of no value and like all the others it gives me no pleasure to say, “I told you so.”

    Auld Rock

    PS Stu. Not like you to use a ‘double negative’ in the title!!!

  79. Brian Powell says:

    Did Mundell and Shouty know about BAE over the time the Defence Secretary was negotiating?

    Shouty should be asked, after all she was going to stand up for Scotland. Man if only we had some journalists.

  80. wull2 says:

    An EU country Scotland wants a vote, but the EU says it does not want to interfere on internal matters.
    It is OK for another external EU member to say no, that to me and most people is interfering.
    Stand up EU, before it is too late.
    Vote YES

  81. Petra says:

    O/T … However relates to another broken promise.

    ‘Tory minister tells Scotland to cheer up over cancelled £1bn energy project with 600 jobs.’


    ‘Kevin McKenna: The 45% haven’t gone away – and that’s enough to terrify all Unionists.’


    And in case you’ve missed it things have taken a turn for the worst in Catalonia.

    ‘The biggest Constitutional crisis in Spain since 1978. Rajoy has now invoked Article 155.

    Madrid has imposed direct rule on Catalonia. The local Police and Ministries will be taken over.’

  82. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T Ah wee break in your boring day Warning lots of sweary words Over to you Dee


    And he’s the kicker intae the bargain the Vinegar hiz a union flag oan it .

  83. Still nothing on the BBC website or news trailers about this. I texted a suggestion they run the story. Can as many of us as possible get on to them about this. They have to be told that at least some Scots have noticed their disgraceful behaviour.

  84. Petra says:


    As mentioned by Nicola at the SNP Conference.

    ‘Ulva buyout: Now the hard work starts for delighted islanders.’

    (If you want to support them financially contact The North West Mull Community Woodland Company (NWMCDC) which is leading the buyout bid.)


    ‘Father of Australia – Lachlan MacQuarie – Born on the Isle of Ulva, Scotland in 1761.’

  85. yesindyref2 says:

    with negotiations for the contract not due to even begin for another half a decade.

    2020, not 2022, for the negotiation of the other 5 T26, though indeed the order itself might not come for another 2 years after.

    But it’s not a certainty in my humble opinion, probable but not certain. There are cuts coming for defence, though the T26 are definitely needed for carrier surface escorts, the stupid UK could still extend the life of 5 of the T23 at great expense.

  86. Ken500 says:

    Hopefully soon Scotland will be building, ferries, supply boats, tugs, liners, and wind turbines on the Clyde. Thatcher shut off commercial activity with Faslane nuclear.

    £200Million invested in ferry services to the Isles. A pittance. Scotland raises £58Billion in tax revenues. How much has Shetland etc contributed in revenues £Billions. The isles with the ferry investment have contributed even more.

    The usual MSM dumbfecks moaning. They cant’t count or read a balance sheet. Useless.

  87. mike d says:

    Ah the bovine stupidity of fools who believed westminsters (lies)promises. Suck it up.

  88. yesindyref2 says:

    I think Fallon suggested Fergusons, and it would be a possibility for them to work with Stellar Systems, Babcock or BMT to build one of their designs, Babcock would make most sense as Babcock do have warship build capability, and at the rate of build for the 3 ordered T26, there would be BAE workers “free” to join Fergusons.

    It’s supposed to be a fixed price build (£250 million each), which is risky and it would be Ferguson taking the risk not Babcock, but even so I’d like to see Fergusons at least tender for it to give them experience, and even to make a tie up with Babcock – for the future SDF for instance!

    Interestingly Babcock seems to be investing in a container faciltiy at Rosyth, which seems to me to indicate their willingness to stick with an Indy Scotland.

  89. yesindyref2 says:

    We should all be warned by the way, of project fear 2 for Indy Ref 2 on March 14th 2019, where the MOD will say that the build of those next 5 Type 26 will be in doubt or not go ahead if Scotland goes Independent.

    The counter to that is these broken promises for 13 frigates now down to 8, and indeed Fallon proclaiming that the future of the Clyde is safe into the 2030s, which is a lie even now – the contract for those 5 T26 is not signed, it is not in “the order book”, contrary to the usual rancid postings on other forums – including UKDJ.

    A “promise” is NOT an order – see Dragons Den.

  90. heedtracker says:

    Interestingly Babcock seems to be investing in a container faciltiy at Rosyth, which seems to me to indicate their willingness to stick with an Indy Scotland.

    If the Arctic ice sheet melts, its going open a vast trade entirely new link over the globe and guess who’s got the ports, post Brexit.

  91. yesindyref2 says:

    Indeed. the North-East passage past Norway and Russia, but also the North-West passage which Canada is already looking at and starting to protect.

    And where do they meet up? The GIS (Greenland Iceland Scotland) gap.

    Oh sorry, should that have been called the GIUK gap? That’s history …

  92. Ken500 says:

    The Tories did it before. They left the rotting hulks at Rosyth and took all the maintenance work to Devonport. Even though it cost £100,000+ more to do it there. Adapting premises etc. Unemployment in Govan 15%. Unemployment in Devonport 4%.

    The way they have damaged the Oil & Gas sector. Now the whisky Industry. It an absolute disgrace. More Oil £& Gas has to be imported putting up the balance of payments and the debt. Fracked Gas in being imported from the US and Gas from Norway. Statoil is making profits in Scottish waters. It can be reprociprocal. Scottish service companies do contract work in Norway but Norwegian get better pay and conditions than other workers in the UK and Norway by comparison.

    Westminster taxes the Scottish Oil & Gas sector at 40% since Jan 2016. Holding it back. Costing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. Corporation tax is less than 20% in the U.K. But the Oil & Gss sector is being illegally taxed at 40%.

  93. geeo says:

    STV ‘news’….no mention of shipyard shafting.

    BBC ‘news’….no mention of shipyard shafting.

    But hey…ferries BAD and Smacking ban good, but SNP ‘nanny state’ bad(ish).

    Pfft…hope someone tells the shipyard workers they are pumped…

  94. heedtracker says:

    Oh sorry, should that have been called the GIUK gap? That’s history

    No but its a serious global trade route issue. You can often hear Britnat culture explain/lie, EU membership for the UK meant that Scottish ports, shipping etc all went to the south coast of teamGB, Southampton etc because its the closest route to our main markets.

    Clearly that’s all gone now.

    Brexit doesnt just mean all goods and services getting slapped with trade tariffs, despite how hard our imperial masters beg, plead, threaten, whine, insult and wail at Brussels, they just aint getting a free EU trade access deal.

    SO that means that the North Atlantic rim opens up again, and if the Arctic is open all year, so will the Pacific rim. And Scotland is back in the game. Christ knows we have vast shipping building and trade capacity on Clydeside, upper and lower.

    One thing is shite sure though, if britnats like Colonel Ruth and Anas do get back in, none of it will ever happen.

    BBC r4 vote tory gimp news for example, gave the new floating wind farm off Peterhead a good wee mention, lots of voices and opinion, none FM Sturgeon, no Scots bar, the Scot beeb gimp. Its their region, they’re in charge.

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    Right, late enough in the thread for this. Cammell Laird have a big hall, and semi-covered slipways north and south, probably capable of building 2 Type 26 side by side – similar to the planned BAE hall on the Clyde which was cancelled, but no recent naval shipbuilding experience. But BAE do.

    So if BAE get the T31e contract, first ship(s) due out in 2023, it’s likely they could also build the 5 T26. BAE – have moved workers from the Clyde to Barrow to help out on the Astute program, no reason they couldn’t move them to Cammell Laird, or transport them weekly.

    This could be the plan, except for one thing – the MOD would like to break the BAE monopoly on shipbuilding, for cost reasons. Meanwhile a Canadaian naval shipbuilder has had a lot of adverts on Clyde, West and even the TV, and a hoptel to interview people for a 30 year shipbuilding program in Canada. One way or another, the Clyde is on its way out as far as naval shipbuilding is concerned, even if it does survive till the 30s, for which there are only mumbled primises, not definite orders.

    Basically while part of the UK, the Clyde is fucked. Genuine analysis.

  96. Proud Cybernat says:

    I wouldn’t put it past them…

  97. heedtracker says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    19 October, 2017 at 7:12 pm
    I wouldn’t put it past them…

    If they jailed “outspoken” leaders of Scottish indy, they’d have to build a fcuk of a lot more jails.

  98. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, well thought out. Which means as well as Rosyth as a container port, there could be a revived Hunterston deepwater hub for super container ships (VLCS), up to 18,000 TEU (20 foot containers) and more in future.

    The future is bright, the future is Saltire blue and Independent.

  99. GORDON FORREST says:

    The reasonthere was no blanket coverage was they were too busy covering up some of the other things they had mis reported.
    This is slightly o/t I know, sorry. While they are running down the Scottish health service for not meeting their targets the BBC are running this little item “how did your trust do?”on their UKy & England site.
    Quick,check it out before its taken down. They report that in Scotland the NHS was still failing to meet their targets and that is true up to a point However what they do not say is that while the targets are not being met the targets are much higher in Scotland than south of the border. Cancer treatment for example has a 95% target within a specified time as opposed to 85% down south, both within the same time frame. Having started painting the room these journalists have backed themselves into a corner with their false truths,half truths and anything but the truth. they make me sick.

  100. heedtracker says:

    Orange Hitler was too busy horrifying American war widows yesterday.

  101. Dave Stephen says:

    Perhaps a little O/T.
    Back in the day when I was in the Merchant Navy, Nelson’s famous quote was frequently changed to:

    “I see no ships – only hardships.”

    Maybe we had it right!

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    With The Ferret coming under a cloud, it could be a good idea for someone to set up the Scottish equivalent. A name does come straight to mind, and the domain is free, but I’ll keep it to myself in case anyone want to run with it! I could email it to BDTT, Lenny Hartley or Paula. Or Rev.

    So a page (one of other themes) like:
    England NHS target X% – achieved Y%
    Scottish NHS target A% – achieved B%
    Verdict: Scottish NHS performs better than the English NHS.

  103. bob says:

    Hang on – SNP is a bit pacifist,(no nukes, no UK bases) prefering others to do the defending for them. No ships being built in Scotland would be their preferred stategy, surely?

  104. yesindyref2 says:

    The SNP manifesto for Independence in 2013 put a £2.5 billion budget for defence, the Eueopean average, plus membership of NATO. Here’s a very good independent plan for the services, needs updating for now, 4 years later:

  105. I think another colin alexander has just surfaced on here.

  106. North chiel says:

    Petra @ 0535pm. Is it not sickening that “ people” ( unheard of in ScotlandTory junior ministers) have so much influence over what transpired in our country . Recently I listened to Angus MacNeil “ pleading” with the Home office “ minister” to issue a “ British “ passport to a “ Hebridean schoolgirl born & brought up in SCOTLAND”. How utterly shameful that a nonentity Westminster Tory junior minister ( who has probably never been to Scotland ) should be able to decide who can and cannot reside in my country or have “Scottish identity”. This cuts to the very core of the Independence question. It is absolutely appalling that we Scots cannot decide who should have the right to reside in OUR COUNTRY. Perhaps with Halloween approaching , as a gesture of solidarity with this Scottish lassie we should throw our “ British” passports on the traditional bonfire . 1.6 million Independence voters renouncing “ British” citizenship and declaring themselves “ stateless” would be appropriate gesture to “ ram down the throat” of the Westminster “ home” office. absolutely shameful and disgraceful !

  107. @bob,

    An Independent Scotland will need its own air force,navy and army,

    to be used to protect our natural resources,especially our oil and our fishing rights,

    we will not send our military round the world murdering all and sundry to fill the pockets of the establishment of England and their Scottish public school gimps.

  108. Tinto Chiel says:

    Wot, no BBC Shortbread news of great shipbuilding swindle?

    Surely not!

    “Jackie, Jackie, give us a smirk,
    Give us a smirk, give us a smirk,
    Jackie, Jackie, give us a smirk,

    Sometimes self-censorship is the only way to retain your dignity/composure, no?

    Union leaders/shipyard workers: ever get the feeling you’ve been had?

  109. yesindyref2 says:

    The Independence White Paper (Scotland’s Future), described getting 2 T23s, and building 2 frigates in the first 5 years, and then another 2 to replace the ageing T23s.

    Plus a command ship (e.g. the likes of an Albion), tanker + supply + 2 OPVs + other patrol vessels + MCM, plus a small squadron of fast jets, with some more to follow, plus the usual transports and army stuff.

    You really shouldn’t believe the extreme comments you get in the likes of UKDJ, from the likes of Robert C.

  110. Ken500 says:

    Not been following the ‘Labour leadership challenge’. Dumb and dumber. Tweedledumb and TweedledumbEE. Both cheating as usual.

    How desperate are Sarwar and Leonard to gain the poison chalice. None of them will last a year. Both now criticising Dugdale for not standing up enough for the Union. She was illegally telling Labour voters to vote Tory to stop another IndyRef. She was paid to do it by the UK Labour Party. Losing Corbyn victory at Westminster. She actually illegally told Labour voters to vote Tory losing Labour a majority in Westminster – to save the Union. She got the sack for that. If she had told folk to vote SNP (illegal). Corbyn would have had a majority. Less Tories would have been elected in Scotland. They cut off their nose to spite their face what a bunch of idiots.

    That’s how stupid and absolutely ridiculious these Labour placepeople can be. She got the sack for supporting the Union. Leading to them ‘competing’ ? cheating to be leader. Accept the poison chalice. Her support for the Union led to them being in a position to take over her poison chalice. Yet they claim she did not support the Union enough. Could there be anymore nonsense spouted? They are beyond ridiculous. Yet they expect to be taken seriously. They are a laughing stock.

  111. Nana says:


    This is really awful re brexit

    So a wee bird has dropped into my inbox what a major newspaper has described as a report from HM Treasury. THREAD

  112. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 19 October, 2017 at 4:03 pm:

    “When you say the Army will round up those scoundrels climbing Hadrians wall to escape england into…england, do you mean because of this…”

    I kid you not, geeo, I joined Rosyth Dockyard in the early 1950s as an apprentice. I lived in North Edinburgh and there was no Forth Road Bridge then. In effect you were paying the Dockyard to train you. The pay for apprentices didn’t even cover the cost of meals and travel. Even with the concessions we got the hours of travel were long and hard. It was, though, the very best apprenticeship anywhere.

    However, as the yard had been reopened because of WWII the civilian management was 100% Englanders and they made sure it stayed that way when promoting people to either new jobs or replacing the deceased, retired or discharged on health grounds. There were very few Scottish Dockyard Mateies in a workforce of over 10,000.

    We Scots were on the receiving end of much, “Only Joking”, abuse and I do not remember even one of the Englanders who actually knew that Hadrian’s Wall was NOT built to keep out the savage and wild Scots.

    It didn’t seem to sink in to them that when Hadrian built his wall, or even Anthony before him built his wall, there were no countries called Scotland or England. Now they were generally a great bunch of people but it was heavy industry and there were many, many rough edges among the Englanders.

    Neither was it generally recognised by them that Hadrian’s wall was several tens of miles south of the modern Scottish/English border. Nor that, even back then, it was an established fact that the known Stone Age settlements in the Northern Isles showed the Northern British Tribes were surprisingly civilised.

    I kid you not that it often took the production of a map of Great Britain to convince the Englanders that Hadrian’s wall is
    totally within England.

    Bear in mind that these English Dockyard workers were almost exclusively from the English deep South like Portsmouth Devonport and the several smaller yards around London and the South West.

    Rosyth village, the bottom end of Dunfermline, Colinton Mains in Edinburgh and a housing area of Falkirk were all respectively known locally as Little England as Westminster had commandeered these, (then new), housing developments to house the imported Dockyard Workers from English Yards. That may even explain why the SNP are a little less popular in certain parts.

  113. Robert Peffers says:

    @Auld Rock says:19 October, 2017 at 5:24 pm:

    “PS Stu. Not like you to use a ‘double negative’ in the title!!!”

    Ah! It is, Auld Rock, a word play on the song title Rev Stu used to head his article a few articles ago, “We don’t need no Education.”

  114. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Proud Cybernat (2.30) –

    ‘BREXIT has finished the Union and they are beginning now to tacitly admit it. That’s why these ships have been reallocated to Merseyside. They know what’s coming.’

    Totally agree.

    The WM bastards have already stolen our eyeballs, and this is them preparing to steal the sockets. They’ll circle the financial wagons around the City of London – no end of foreign thugs to help protect the big washing machine. But they daren’t leave us as a potential threat – they’ll hamstring us every which way they can.

    Look what they did to Glasgow when it was becoming known globally as ‘The Second City’. That was too much of a threat – there can be only one! – so we were denied the returns and development we were due. Didn’t help that The Dear Green Place was getting a reputation as a hotbed of radicalism and yon Socialism nonsense. Too dodgy, so they set about hobbling us and they’re still at it wi’ the auld gentrification palaver.

    This ‘betrayal’ is so blatant it cannot be disguised or passed-off as anything else.

    So suck it up Yoonball yardworkers. Feeling pissed off? A wee bit worried? Insecure? A tad regretful perhaps?

    Tough. You were well warned. Repeatedly.

    So suffer and learn, fools.

  115. heedtracker says:

    O/T maybe, google “felbers inverness deported bbc news” and there is nothing about this at all, BBC Scotland news wise. Effectively beeb gimp network in Scotland is just not producing any news at all that reflects badly on this shithead union or Westminster now.

    Half a million dollars pumped into the Highland economy and they’re out, care of our imperial masters. . They’ll be able to get some money back with business sold.

    The Felbers spent £300,000 buying the award winning Torridon guest house in the town in 2011. They are thought to have invested another £100,000 renovating the property and their business has won awards. The couple have became well loved members of the community in Inverness – Mrs Felber has became an active member of Inverness Cathedral’s bell ringing club and she was also taking Gaelic lessons.”

    Scottish Highlands are famously overpopulated anyway and so much for planettoryboy’s special relationship.

  116. call me dave says:


    Jings! Thanks Nana 🙂

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    “Clyde Built”

    Used to be a thing of pride in Scotland, both warships and merchant ships. But not just on the Clyde, all over Scotland. Scotland built ships.

    First we lost much of our merchant shipbuilding, with for isntance Thatcher heralding the sale of Scott Lithgow, and their yeard being described as the “Flagship” of Trafalgar House who took it over and quickly scuttled its chance of ever building ships again by a systematic program of asset-stripping.

    Now it’s the naval shipbuilding, with the building of frigates likely being moved out of Scotland, to Liverpool or Belfast, then probably the replaccement for the destroyers likewise.

    “Clyde Built” will soon be a thing of the past, and I think the older generation, the ones who remember, and the ones who apparently voted NO by a large majority, should be made away of it, and the systematic destruction of the shipbuilding on the Clyde, and indeed their British pride in “Clyde Built”.

    “Clyde Built” no more.

  118. Glamaig says:

    O/T Looks like they were coming up here to shoot our wildlife even 4500 years ago

  119. Nana says:

    @ call me dave

    Sorry if I give you nightmares!

  120. Cactus says:

    Think about a possible…

    “…three zero with a possibility of another five at some undefined point in the future”

    The continued stripping and killing off of Scotland’s industries and assets.

    It’s not too late and it’s never too late to change your mind.

    Many other examples are known.

    We’ll sort oor own Clyde out.

    iYes is an option.

    Be Scottish.

  121. Macart says:

    @Nana 8.50

    If even a third of that is on the nose (and I believe a great deal more than a third will be), the effects on the entire UK will be catastrophic.

  122. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    19 October, 2017 at 7:18 pm

    Its all down to the rule of this union but its a simple question, how can Scotland, with the world’s biggest offshore oil and gas sectors, have no ship and rig building industry, other than RN contracts?

    As ever, look at Norway, a giant industrial nation, same offshore oil and gas reserves as Scotland.

    Late night beeb gimp poverty porn, anyone?

    Its the best UKOK kind too, Scottish poverty porn, BBC Scotland’s got it all going on for you UK? oh baby, get your c_cks out planet toryboy…

  123. call me dave says:

    Shortbread radio 22:00hrs also on it’s website:

    Prosecutors have dropped a case against Lib Dem MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton over claims he had broken electoral law.

    Mr Cole-Hamilton was accused of breaching the legal spending cap and filing incorrect election returns in the Holyrood vote in June 2016.

    He won the seat of Edinburgh Western from the SNP in the vote, but was reported to prosecutors in June 2017.

    However the Crown Office said that after “careful consideration”, there would be “no proceedings at this time”.

    Scotland 2 V Belarus 1 WC Qualifying. Well done the women.

  124. John says:

    Er… “Dont see no” is a double negative. I have my hammers prepared. How many do you see? Boring pedant, but Indy stalwart.

  125. Proud Cybernat says:

    Er… “Dont see no” is a double negative. I have my hammers prepared. How many do you see? Boring pedant, but Indy stalwart.

    Well, there’s one in the article picture. I think we were promised thirteen.

    Or am I aa pendantic as yersel?

  126. Legerwood says:

    heedtracker @ 10.10

    You could also ask how Scotland with all those offshore wind farms etc is not building the specialised ships needed during their construction and on going maintenance once they are operational.

    Some boatbuilders in England have contracts to build such ships. Shipyard On the Isle of Wight for example. Spain is also building some of the ships required for the offshore work.

  127. One_Scot says:

    Honestly, if Westminster manages to get another No vote out of Scotland come the next referendum, there is something seriously wrong somewhere.

  128. Cactus says:

    Just to keep it real.

    Think about a possible…

    “…three zero with a possibility of another five zero at some undefined point in the future”

    Calculator not required.

    Work that one out.

    Anything’s poss.

    Be Scottish.

  129. heedtracker says:

    Legerwood says:
    19 October, 2017 at 10:25 pm
    heedtracker @ 10.10

    You could also ask how Scotland with all those offshore wind farms etc is not building the specialised ships needed during their construction and on going maintenance once they are operational.

    WHY is Scotland NOT building the turbines?

    Its insane that the nation that built some of the world’s most famous ships, can no longer build anything, other than what some upper class twits in the MOD decide, and they’re deciding they’re not going to “give” Scotland less and less by the day.

  130. Ken MacColl says:

    Interesting item on today’s Politics Show with host Jo Cockburn and guest, Labour Lord (?)Adonis, getting tore into a representative from Russian TV media for presenting news with a bias and unquestioning support for Putin. Contrast this, was the underlying message, with the BBC that fearlessly, and without favour, presents the loyal subjects of the UK with all news they need to know.
    It is always uplifting to be lectured on the merits of democracy by unelected lords.
    It occurs to me that the Rev, with a minuscule fraction of the resources, presents carefully investigated press reports with back up while an army of researchers or reporters can be seen behind the newsreaders of the national broadcaster and yet there remains huge gaps in the news we are offered and are obliged to pay for.

  131. Cactus says:



  132. Legerwood says:

    yesindyref2 @ 9.37pm

    Clyde built.

    Mrs Thatcher makes a convenient target in the blame game but more than Mrs Thatcher were culpable in the decline of shipbuilding on the Clyde and going much further back than Mrs Thatcher.

    Scottish shipbuilding started to decline in the 1900s. Two world wars and the need to replace ships slowed the decline. At the end of WWII when there was a boom in shipbuilding the Clyde was building 18% of the world’s ships but by 1958 that was down to 4.5% and some German yards could build ships in half the time it was taking Scottish yards.

    Here is a list of shipyard closures on the Clyde – look at the 1960s particularly the second half when Labour were in charge and the 1970s.

    So not all down to Mrs Thatcher but laying it all at her door let’s an awful lot of people off the hook.

  133. John says:

    O.K. I missed that. what is more relevant is the constant and repeated misinformation produced from the media. I have often wondered what the barriers would be to a crowdfunded radio station. It seems to work elsewhere, Why does Scotland seem to be denied a truely independent outlet? Catalonia and the Basque regions had reasonably independent media.

  134. Cactus says:


    Oh the Clyde water!

    What shores.

  135. Morgatron says:

    Wow – QT went all TOTP 73 with Sweet.

  136. Petra says:

    @ North chiel says at 7:53 pm …”British passport to a Hebridean schoolgirl born & brought up in SCOTLAND”.

    Good news NC, Angus MacNeil has managed to resolve the situation. Seemingly that wee girl WILL receive her passport in the very near future. More than anything it’s great news for her grandparents, guardians, who aren’t going to be around forever and must have been desperate to see her set up for the future… protected.

    However can you imagine if there wasn’t such a thing as the Internet? We would all be left in the dark especially with this lousy, worse than useless, Scottish MSM. Our SNP MSPs wouldn’t have the same support. We need control over immigration. Bottom line is that we need our Independence, ASAP, which might happen sooner than later with the way things are going. Hope you’re all ready for it, lol!

  137. heedtracker says:

    Legerwood says:
    19 October, 2017 at 10:42 pm
    yesindyref2 @ 9.37pm

    Clyde built.

    Mrs Thatcher makes a convenient target in the blame game but more than Mrs Thatcher were culpable in the decline of shipbuilding on the Clyde and going much further back than Mrs Thatcher.

    No it was Thatcher and her merry band of money grubbing paedo shits. This kind of argument really gets on my nerves Legerwood.

    Look at each generation of Scots and they always change, they are always different. Are today’s young Scots any different from their Norwegian generation that automatically expect to get great high paid jobs in Norwegian heavy industry? No.

    Nothing stays the same, the Snatcher Thatcher era was and is a living horror, Gordon Brown’s snivelling I so love me back w_nkfest, was even worse but Scotland future is not bound by its red and blue tory British ruled past.

  138. Rock says:

    “other than the pro-independence National”

    As front page top headline?

  139. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Dimbleby just said that QT will be in Kilmarnock the week after next.

    That’s what he said!

  140. Cactus says:

    The smacking of Scottish children in Scotland is to be officially banned.

    Good news, excellent, violence is violence.

    Ask the People of Catalonia.

  141. Cactus says:

    Oh right shortbread news.

    SO he of Catalonia is now indeed a “separatist leader”

    Reverting back to your middle headline, go you.

    Check this shit out!


  142. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, correction to my correction to Rev’s article:

    “The contract for the second batch of five ships is expected to be negotiated in the early 2020s”. Not 2020 itself.

    But from elsewhere: “The Ministry of Defense expects HMS Glasgow and two of her sisters to enter service by the mid-2020s”. There would be at least a 1 year gap after launching and sea trials.

    These three T23s are due to be decommissioned, though not neccessarily like for like replacements, as the T31e could start coming through.

    Argyll F231 expected to be decommissioned in 2023
    Lancaster F229 expected to be decommissioned in 2024
    Iron Duke F234 expected to be decommissioned in 2025

    and 1 a year after that.

    Not easy finding and putting together this stuff by the way 🙂

    So basically speaking BAE on the Clyde currently has an “order book” full only until 2025/6 at the latest, NOT into the 2030s as some Unionists are claiming. A promise is NOT an order as we’ve seen.

  143. clan rossy says:

    Me thinks its time for scotland to tell all these
    yoon and proudbut arseholes to fuck off .

    ive had enough off the bastards its time for the
    scottish govt to tell them to get tae fuck .

    every single day is nothing but negativity 365 days
    off the year honestly im ready to blow a gasket .

    bastards the whole lot of them

  144. Cactus says:

    A shout out to that last band that were playing a set on Radio Shortbread, I dunno what yer politics are, but yer band played wae passion.

    Good luck tae yee’s.


  145. louis.b.argyll says:

    heedtracker says
    ‘..what some upper class twits in the MOD decide..’

    Yep. It’s enough to make you wanna…

  146. Robert Peffers says:

    @Glamaig says: 19 October, 2017 at 9:39 pm:

    “O/T Looks like they were coming up here to shoot our wildlife even 4500 years ago

    Well, no, Glamaig, they were not. Considering there was no Scotland or England back then and the Stone Age settlements on the Northern Isles are testament to that.

    However, A dig on a Norfolk beach unearthed a cache of ancient flint tools that, when carbon dated, pushing back the known date of the first known human occupation of Britain by up to 250,000 years.

    The dig along the north-east coast of East Anglia near the village of Happisburgh, turned up 78 pieces of razor-sharp flint shaped into primitive cutting and piercing tools.

    The stone tools were unearthed from sediments that are dated to between 840,000 or 950,000 years ago, making them the oldest human artefacts yet found in Britain.

    The flints are thought to have belonged to early hunter-gatherers of the human species Homo antecessor. Who made a living on the flood plains and marshes that bordered a long dried up course of the river Thames. It is thought that these flints had been washed downriver and came to rest at the Happisburgh site.

    You just have to love the Londoners. They even claim credit for flint tools made long before there even was a Londdinium.

    I kid you not.

  147. Cactus says:

    Whomever initiated the invasion of Catalonia…

    Should answer to:

    1) The People of Catalonia ~
    2) The People of Spain ~

    Public debate.


    The Clyde is bonnie x.

  148. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t believe the shipyard workers trust the English government any more than the British Nationalists Unionists whatever you want to call them, or even us Yessers do

    Those who lend their support to the British just fear them more and they hate us for being brave enough to say we don’t
    ergo we and the SNP end up being blamed for anything the English government do to Scotland

    Scotland’s full of brave cowards with big mouths who wait to see what way the wind’s blowing before they claim they were on your side all along once their wages are gone, honest we were

    Violence works so smack your child, then in order to impose it’s will your child will smack somebody else’s child and you’ll smack him/her for being the bad you just taught it to be, result, violence works for today, tomorrow the resentment starts, but you’ve learned, imposing your will by violence is the way and it definitely works, you tell your fellow cell mates

    Damn polis, we’ll batter them next time they all echo

  149. Cactus says:

    Saturday is too late.

    Here n Now.

    Stop making sense!

  150. Cactus says:

    3) The People of this World ~

  151. Cactus says:

    Love out to the beautiful People of Catalonia ~

    Remain very strong.

    I know you.

    Ur cool.


  152. Dan Huil says:

    David Davis, Britnat brexiteer nutjob, preparing for no deal.
    Indyref2 coming soon.

  153. Cactus says:


  154. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Legerwood @ 22:42,

    Thanks for that insight. I like facts.

    Labour robbed Scotland just as much as the Tories did, maybe even more, just in its own special sleekit way (McCrone, f’rinstance).

    It’s just that they had more convenient sockpuppets up here to flim-flam into everywhere and they had a gullible public who kept voting for these numpties out of misplaced loyalty. Changed days now, one hopes.

    No-one likes to be shown up to be a fool, though some are more willing than others to accept past mistakes and re-evaluate things afresh. Which is how we got to where we are now. But it would be nice somehow if the non-arrivals to our rich feast could somehow be served a great deal more of the truth.

  155. Cactus says:

    We own midnight, any questions?

  156. Still Positive says:

    I say this every week after I have watched QT – some very deluded people in the audience. Maybe we Scots do not really understand English arrogance and exceptionalism.

    Next week QT from Portsmouth with Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alex Salmond.

    That should be worth a watch.

  157. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, to all those who’ve already achieved something today, well done!

    And for all the rest of us, we’ve still got over 23 hours …

  158. Cactus says:

    #ClassicWullie ~

    “Whar’s ma bunnet?”


  159. yesindyref2 says:

    @Still Positive
    Maybe we Scots do not really understand English arrogance and exceptionalism.

    I think it’s a form of self-confidence that goes over the top. Scots tend to have under-confidence, hence perhaps the NO.

  160. GrahamB says:
    The BBC sneaks out a half-hearted story after midnight, wonder how long it will stay on their main pages.
    Speaking to pals over a pint earlier we reckoned the workers/unions would have to pick up on the betrayal before any noise would force it on to the Record/Sun/Herald front pages. At least the Unite union guy seems to have realised they’ve been duped but I think the main union in the yards is GMB and they are staunchly Unionist. Perhaps a wee chink of light though.

  161. Still Positive says:

    I agree Yesindyref 2 @ 12.22

  162. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. Thatcher. She certainly armed Pol Pot and the Khemer Rouge but she wasn’t solely responsible for Britain’s de-industrialisation.


    This paper considers the evolution of the manufacturing sector in the UK since 1870. It analyses the contribution of manufacturing to national income, employment and trade. From 1870 to 1960, manufacturing played a key role in the development of the economy, undergirding success in other sectors of the economy and securing rising living standards. The subsequent fifty years, from 1960, have witnessed a relative decline of the UK manufacturing sector–relative to other sectors of the economy, and relative to the manufacturing sectors in other countries. The paper considers the thesis that the relative decline of manufacturing is a natural outcome of the development of advanced economies, and the counter-arguments suggesting that decline of UK manufacturing reflected economic weaknesses and structural imbalances. We argue that in the case of the UK, the relative decline of manufacturing has indeed reflected deep-rooted structural problems. In particular there has been a chronic failure to invest in manufacturing, with the UK economy and investment being instead skewed towards short-term returns and the interests of the ‘City’. A stronger manufacturing sector would help to rebalance the UK economy away from an over-reliance on the banking sector and would help rebalance the UK economy and society in regional terms. To achieve such a rebalancing requires active government policies to help increase investment in education, skills and innovation.

  163. Cactus says:

    Shortbread hands over to Radio Five Live at wan eh ehm

    ” The prime minister ‘urged’ and ‘insisted’ the EU”

    (Yer in no position to negotiate PM TM)

    Ahhhhh, ha ha ha, ha ha, ha.

    Tired badger / cat food.


  164. call me dave says:

    Catalonia on Radio 5 now Cactus…Spanish constitution & Article 155 is not clear cut says various experts.

    (Not the one from Edinburgh Uni that’s on everyday on radio shortbread).

    Take care Cactus always look for your posts, positive stuff 🙂

  165. Cactus says:


    Sailing Ships:

    Take me with you…

    Will pass you by.

  166. Michael McCabe says:

    A wee tune for all those who believed Westmonster about all the Ship Building coming to Scotland. Don’t get fooled again. Yes the next time. Lets take back control.

  167. William Wallace says:

    Ships again eh?

    Kishmul’s Galley Sailing 🙂

    One Love – One Scotland.

  168. mr thms says:

    #call me dave @ 1:16 am

    “Catalonia on Radio 5 now Cactus…Spanish constitution & Article 155 is not clear cut says various experts.”

    This article does not mention Article 155, but it does have something interesting to say on secession..

    “Secession and Self-determination in Western Europe: The Case of Catalonia”

  169. sinky says:

    Michael Fallen BBC GMS claiming credit for reopening of Fergusons shipyard on Clydebank which was done indy supporting person and Scottish government assistance

  170. Hamish100 says:

    Listening to the TU Unionist Unite rep. Better in the Union despite the lies of the Tories. He forgot to mention the lying trade unions with their lying labour sidekicks.
    Where art thou Vow?

  171. Brian Powell says:

    GMB shitting itself when it comes to the issue of Scotland, if Scotland went there would be a big whole in GMB.

    The UK unions who have members in the RofI will be in trouble after Brexit, workers rights are better protected by the EU and when the UK is out these unions will have nothing to offer members in Ireland.

  172. orri says:

    Fallon visiting Harland and Wolff should tip a wink at how some of this is going to go.

    The Government is on a hook as far as it’s “bribe” to the DUP goes. However being the tightwads they are they’ve got a potential out. Some of the promised dosh could be in the way of investment into ship building and contracts.

    Second point is that the rules on military contracts are different so, even whilst still in the EU, Westminster avoids commitments to competitive tender. In addition the employment regulations take a back seat to vetting. So plenty of scope to background check anyone applying for work. Even in Scotland there’s going to be a bias against independence minded folk.

    Third point, there’s probably a great excuse not only in Scotland but NI to increase a military presence around a naval yard building for the Navy due to it’s strategic value. In NI even more so.

  173. Breeks says:

    mr thms says:
    20 October, 2017 at 3:48 am

    This article does not mention Article 155, but it does have something interesting to say on secession..

    That is quite a warning mr thms.

    “….Many populations around the world experience what they consider colonial domination or exploitation. However, it is clear that colonial self-determination now only applies to a handful of cases that remain clear instances of classical colonialism so listed by the UN…”

    If that’s the view that prevails, then many presumptions about self determination are scarily close to arbitrary, and many arguments thought to be absolute become very flexible and open to differing interpretation.

    For example, “….in other words, these are cases of the acquisition and domination of a territory and population, during the time of imperialism, by a metropolitan power that is radically racially distinct and divided from the colonial territory by an ocean, for the purposes of economic exploitation. Catalonia is clearly not among them”.

    What does say? If you are colonised by an imperialist Nation that is culturally alien to yours and comes from far away, your Constitutional protestations have greater foundation than a culturally similar Nation being colonised by its immediate neighbour? – These observations and comments are coming from the European Journal of International Law don’t forget… It would seem there are “degrees” of colonisation.

    I wonder where such attitudes would place Scottish Sovereignty? The unshakeable permanent Constitutional benchmark which we Scots have only to tighten our grip to repossess? Or a more complicated state of affairs, made contentious and indistinct after 300 years of our “complicity” with our ambiguous “colonisation”?

    I keep telling you, unless Scotland wants to find itself in the same predicament as Catalonia, with all our constitutional levers and cosy presumptions that Scots Law will protect us suddenly declared illegal or superseded under the recognised supremacy of UK law, then Scotland MUST get its act together now, and get our NATIONAL Scottish Sovereignty recognised on the international stage as a “player” in the game.

    It need not be the full-on actual act of Scotland’s emancipation from the UK Union, but it must be a suffiently adequate challenge to UK Parliamentary Sovereignty so that UK Parliamentary Sovereignty changes from being internationally recognised as undisputed, and becomes internationally recognised as disputed.

    Our naive deference to a democratic majority secured in a sweet and cuddly referendum is seen by too many people as the vital precursor to our sovereign empowerment, but that is a dangerously casual and reckless misapprehension to dwell under. We need to start the process of making our sovereignty safe, current, and relevant long before any ScotRef referendum to formally enact it. If that referendum when it happens is not backed by the solid iron potency of Scottish sovereignty, then Westminster will box it in and internalise the whole process just as Madrid is currently seeking to contain the Catalonians.

    Please SNP people, listen. This is becoming critical.

  174. Ken500 says:

    Those Tory bastards are still trying to deport the American couple Russell and Ellen Felber. These lowlive Tory cowards have made this lady ill from their harsh treatment. After they came to Scotland and settled in a legitimate entrepreneur visa. Added to the enterprise of the Highlands. Just what Scotland needs. Until the dirty lowlive Tories changed the fecking rules. The Tories are the scum of the earth. Imagine doing this to people. Treating them like this. They contributed to society. A total asset.

    The Tories are dirty rotten stinking liars. They try to embezzle all they can from public money for them and their cronies. Scotland is half empty because of the lying Tory policies. They depopulated Scotlsnd.

    They now have a stinking judge on this case trying to deport these enterprising people. It is absolutely disgraceful. It had better not be under Scotls Law. It is breaking International Law and Human rights Law. What a way for the Tory scum to be treating people. The Scottish Gov must put up a fund to pay the expenses and give support to people who find thendelves in this position. The Tory scum change the rules and feck up people’s live. They are dirty little cowardly hypocrites. Most of them should be in jail. When Scotland is Independent. These corrupt crooks will find themselves in jail. That is why they are so afraid of Independence.. They will not be able to tax evade etc.

    The Felbers must not be harmed in any way. The Tory scum and their judge can get lost. Breaking International Law again. The Tory way.

    The abnoxious double barrelled FibDem has got off with electoral expenses fraud again. Now more of them are being investigated. Will nothing stick on these crooks? Liar,liar. They caused all this mess by going in with Cameron. They causedi it. Agreeing to an EU Ref so they could have a PR one. The idiots. To try and increase their power base, Clegg got voted out. Like these lot are going to be. Liar, liar fraudsters Cons.

    Techters in the NE are still voting for the 3rd rate Tory scum who ruined the economy. Put illegal Tory taxes 40% on the Oil & Gas sector bringing the NE economy down. So the ignorant bastards go out and vote Tory for the one’s who lost the jobs and hit them in their pocket. There is no accounting for the stupidity of some folk. Like Turkeys voting for Christmas. They want austerity to ruin their economy. How idiotic can some folk get.

    The Scottish budget has been cut 10% a year since 2010, Now £3Billion a year. With absolutely no plauible explanation. Lobbing £Biliion from Scotland’s legitimate allocation. Ruining the Scottish economy with unfair Tory taxes and tax evasion. HMRC not fit for purpose, except to keep the wealthy tax evaded income covered up. Whisky companies making vast profits tax evade and out nothing back. They have held up minimum pricing for five years. Wasting public money and killing people. Being responsible for more early deaths. They are a total disgrace. Unfair Tory taxes now hitting them. After they supported BT. Brexit will also hit the industry hard. Hit export opportunities to the EU.

    The unionist have compromised the voting system in Scotland in their favour. The 3rd rate unionists now get elected as representatives when they have come third. To ruin the economy. They actually created an undemocratic system. So these crooked unionists could keep a strangle hold on the economy. Borrow and spend like there is no tomorrow. Waste money like water on groteque projects of no value. That no one wants.

    The unionists cut essential services. Social care and education etc Lobb £Millions off the allocated money so they can waste it, on non mandated projects that no one wants of no value. Building a £300Million Conference Centre with absolutely no business case. Totally unneccesary. A total waste of public money. To try and get themselves re elected in their constituencies. Graft and corruption is alive and well in unionists councils. A Football Stadium with Conference/concert facilities is going to be build five minutes up the road. With all facilities needed and great support.

    The unionist bastard Thomson EE/PJ is ruining the NE economy with the nonsense and lies printed in these paper. The profits go to a redundant football team. That isn’t even manage properly. Ruining the NE economy. Supporting lying Tories with a gut full of malicious lies ‘reporting’. The management is said to be in league with the corrupt unionist administration. Even allegedly getting a cut price deal to move in and occupy the groteque monstrosity mess. The £200Million outrageous, illegal spend on the monstrosity. They have ruined the City Centre for posterity. Caused traffic chaos. £1.2Billion in debt. The Labour crooks are changing Council meeting arrangements to accomodate the two jobs senile Tory ripping off the public purse. The evil scum.

    Meanwhile in Dundee, Thomson’s home town.. The SNP administration have tastefully renovated the whole City. The V & A improved the economy. Getting Oil & Gas and renewable work in. Decommissioning projects. Accommodating cruise ships. Transformed the local economy and put Dundee on the map. Major pedestrianisation. Building a new railway station, An absolutely amazing renovation of the whole City. Now an amazing place to be. People got to Dundee shopping rather than attempt to shop in the traffic screwed, debt ridden Aberdeen City. Run badly by conniving, crooked unionists.

    Everything the SNP Scottish Gov funds they try to take the credit for it. The ugly vacant mug of the crooked minority Labour leader in it. The Village swimming pool funded by the Scottish Gov (Alex Salmond) in video relay. The housing project funded by the SNP Scottish Gov. The additional needs school. Still not enough provision. Trying to take credit for it. They built no houses and cut the schools allocated money. 100 teachers short. What have they done with £Billions of public money. Wasted it on non mandated groteque projects of no value. They refused a £80Million gift to pedestrianise and renovate the City.Imroving the City Centre. Instead got into £1,2Billion of debt cannibalising the City.

    The unfinished Art Gallery and Music Hall will be shut for years, They have destroyed the Art scene in the City. Aberdeen Artist exhibition now has no suitable place to go. The Art Gallery was unique and was actually built, originally, accomodate the unique exhibition. The marble staircase has been vandalised and destroyed. The unionists have ruined the soul of the City. An absolute disgrace.

    The SNP Gov have have funded the essential AWPR, the wind turbine project in the Bay, expanded the airport, still on the wrong side of the runway. They are going to fund the CCS project at Peterhead which the Tories reneged upon. The expansion of the Harbour long over due. The NE has had an over allocation of capital budget spending for the first time ever, after years of neglect.

    The Tories have ruined the NE economy with illegal high taxes on the Oil & Gas secret and now in the Whisky industry. Now Brexit which will badly affect the NE economy worse of all the parts of the UK. The NE will cop it worst. If some of the electorate do not vote SNP/SNP but sit on their hands. Or do not vote for Independence when time comes and they get the opportunity to vote. SNP/Independence is for all times. Not just for Christmas. Get out there and add support.

  175. Les Wilson says:

    Well Fallon going to Clydeside to spin why the ships are now going to Tyneside.(I hope he gets roasted by the workers)

    Perhaps the ship builders should cast an eye back to what has happened to other Scottish industries over the years.
    That cost thousands of jobs.

    Westminster does not want Scottish yards to be successful, they as usual, want to leave a wasteland, as they did with the car industry in Bathgate, Ravenscraig, and others.

    Wake up Clydeside there could be a good future without Westminster’s faux promises.

    The SNP plan for the area would be a winner and they could start supplying other countries with what they need. The future could be bright and very productive without the lying of Westminster.

  176. Grouse Beater says:

    Remarkably, there are craven Union apologists swearing blind no promises were ever made on frigate numbers.

    The promise and then the betrayal has been Westminster’s way for generations.

    Those DM-ing me: here’s the information on why Catalonia is where it is now:

  177. Ken500 says:

    Feck off because you did not get a reply from the SNP, which caused a business to fail. Hardly likely. Business incompetence, or ineptness, probably played a part. Obsessional personality?

    Catalonia is nothing like Scotland. Different, different, different.

    Stop trying to use Catalonia to bash the SNP, who do everything by the book with a large majority. Support for Independence 50%+. When it is time to go every thing will be ready. Everything in place. A good majority and it will be won.

    Both Spain and Catalonia want to stay in the EU. Unlike the Brexiteers. (Catalonia) Want to cut and run off with no responsibility. That will not succeed. There will be a backlash.

    Unlike the conduct of those in Catalonia. More like Brexit. They do not have a majority. A 1/3 of support. Trying to push it though without majority support and legitimacy. It was bound to fail. Without the majority support. The numbers did not stack up. Especially when the opposition boycotted the vote. Puigdemont knew there was not enough legitimate support but went ahead in any case. Then decided to consider what he had done. To late to recoup the needed support.

  178. Macart says:

    @Grouse Beater

    Posted this yesterday Grouse, but worth posting again.

    I see some folk online taking the line that HMG didn’t assure diddly for the Scottish yards, or offer threats on anything.

    Easy to check.

  179. Capella says:

    @ mr thms – thx for the link to the very interesting article on the legal aspects of Catalonia’s independence. The comparison with Kosovo is striking.

  180. Famous15 says:

    “How now Brown vow?”

  181. Its rather rich of the trade union officials of Unite and the GMB bleating about betrayal over the Clyde warship contracts.

    They were the ones who persuaded the workforce to believe during that independence referendum that their yards would have a secure future as part of the UK and a Tory government would deliver on its promises.

    Obviously these union clowns have forgotten or didn’t read up on how in the past the Clyde shipyard workers and those at Rosyth were betrayed in the 1970s and 80s by both Labour and Tory governments.

  182. Sinky says:

    O/T but interesting

    Labour MP and rising star Ian Lavery received £165,000 from the 10-member trade union he ran.
    We have learned this from the trade union regulator which has now released a report into Mr Lavery’s actions as general secretary of the NUM Northumberland Area.
    He will now face questions on his record over a number of disputed payments by the union he ran.
    Mr Lavery, who is the chairman of the Labour Party, denies any wrongdoing.

  183. Ken500 says:

    How did Arron Banks afford Brexit? Arron Banks was Farague’s bagman. All the money Farague stole from the EU €Billions was used illegally to fund a UKIP political Party which is totally illegal. No public funds (unless legit a Westminster supposedly equal allocation) are supposed to be used to fund a political Party. Arron Banks laundered the illegal EU funds illegally through his offshore accounts. Leaving these illegal deposits in the off shore accounts to accumulate and evade tax. The holding were exposed through the panama tax papers.

    Banks and Farague covered up as usual. Whenever UKIP needed these funds, embezzled from the EU allocstion, Banks just made a donation. Farague was illegally using EU funds to fund a political Party to try and destroy the EU and halt the UK membership, which benefits Britain. Farague has illegally not put in accounts for years, to disclose where he gets his funding. A crook, liar and a cheat.

    With Brexit he has come unstuck. The revenues stream is drying up. The EU is checking up and demanding money back. Brexit will mean no post in the EU for Farague. Trump doesn’t want to know. Doesn’t suffer fools gladly. The knighthood did not come off. More attempting to trough on public money. Can’t get elected in the UK. The mansion has gone. The French mistress still in tow? The German wife neglected. The kids now have dual passports. German/UK.

    Brexit will be a disaster. Banks will be keeping an eye on the passport and the money. The reason the Tories want out of the EU is so they and their cronies can tax evade. Even if it ruins the whole economy. Banks and Farague should be put in jail for embezzling and laundering public money. It is not over yet. Farague has a job at a radio station.

    Banks just keeps fiddling along. Could still get caught up. Depending on the authorities. When everyone of them is doing the same? ‘Dark’ money going through the DUP. In illegal Brexit payments. Foster’s slush fund will have got an illegal cut. For the bigots and the racists breaking the Law. A Law among themselves. Breaking UK/EU Law with impunity.. Running NI like a fiefdom. Not for very much longer. They can get voted out. With Brexit the DUP could become unstuck. Lead to their downfall. NI voted to Remain.

  184. Fudgefase says:

    TBH, I spotted the same large piece in the Times in print version (maybe only Scottish version) while I was reading over the shoulder of a guy in the bus yesterday.

  185. Scott says:


    This should make interesting reading for us all just to let us see how the UK works.

    American couple who set up award-winning Highland B&B will be deported

    Exclusive: Wife of ‘Top Gun’ war hero Simon Rawlins is finally coming home after being granted visa

    I only post this as I wonder what is best for Scotland a “Top Gun” or two people and others who have been deported from Scotland where they wanted to stay and build a business.Jason and Christy Zielsdorf, who have five children another case of being deported.

    It is about time the SNP Government said enough is enough and let these people stay and defy Westminster.
    This is how the Tories treat us and Davidson will do nothing.

    Tory minister tells Scotland to cheer up over cancelled £1bn energy project with 600 jobs

  186. Ken500 says:

    Fallon is a Tory bastard. A warmongering killers. He wants to start a war with Russia, An alcoholic. The Tories -Fallon are selling weapons to the Saudis to kill innocent people. The most absolute despot monarchy in the world. Fallon is a criminal. He should be put in jail.

    How can anyone trust the Tories, especially in Scotland is a mystery. They have form they do it time and time again. Bring the economy down, especially in Scotland. Some trade union leaders do the same. Collude with the bosses to the detriment of the members interest. Trade Union history is littered with the leaders bad decisions ruining industry and prosperity.

  187. Nana says:

    A Westminster committee has launched an inquiry into the effectiveness of UK immigration policy in Scotland.

    How much of this will Scotland have to stump for a Brexit we did not vote for.

  188. Ken500 says:

    Where is a QC to defend the Felbers. Cmon get this sorted. Go to the EU Courts of human rights. Get a Scottish Gov fund set up for these people’s expenses. Cmon Nicola. Do it now. Defeat the Tory bastards. Depopulating Scotland, Adrian Mole get your finger out for a change. Do something useful. Or lose all the lucrative EU work. Legal system get up and defend this injustice. Now.

  189. mike d says:

    Scott 9.54am agree,the Scottish government should step in and declare, The felbers aint going nowhere. Now take a hike . And I dont give a flying f**k if its a westmidden matter.

  190. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Nana fcs ur you oan over time , its taken me 20min to read & try & get my heid roon that Arron Banks link , ask Norman to make a nice cup of coffee an pit yer feet up Hugs.

  191. Nana says:

    Haha Ronnie don’t you worry, he’s in training right now. He’s going to wish he hadn’t retired just yet, lol

    It’s happening!

  192. Foonurt says:

    Fuck, thurr military weapons.

    Whit aboot some retro-paddle-steamurrs, fur doon-yoan-wahtturr.

    Haud oan, Dr Jim – real McCoy urr Whaw, wull bae oan. Erse grammurr poalis. Nabrae, wae ah pea in pink-lint, oan ah plate, fur thurr tea.

  193. Cactus says:

    Aweright n evening call me dave ~

    Likewise, same goes tae yerself.

    Cheers! 🙂

  194. Cactus says:

    Remember this one of last:

    Aint it amazing, art remains in the present.

    Tomorrow is a Saturday.

  195. Cactus says:

    @ The River Clyde ~

    Ah’ve rowed up ye
    Ah’ve rowed doon ye
    Ah’ve rowed awe aroon ye
    Ah’ve steered up n doon ye
    Ah’ve pulled bodies out of ye
    Ah’ll always walk wae ye.

    Welcome to yer real life.


  196. Tam the Bam. says:

    I’m b this………lets go on the attack….we got ammo

  197. Tam the Bam. says:

    don’t fuk wae us…..ok?

  198. Cactus says:

    The middle of Saint Andrews Bridge is the heart of Glasgow.

    It’s where we all began cool People of iGlasgow ~

    Sit yerself down there sometime.

    Bring a friend.

    Look West.


  199. Cactus says:

    Saint Andrews Bridge marks the spot.

  200. Cactus says:


    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    🙂 🙂



    Many and many more ships in a free Scotland.

  201. Cactus says:

    Fuck Fallon he is a can’t… two times over
    Same as the rest of them scary uniony people… ‘games-a-bogie!’

    Glasgow needs Glasgow

    just like

    Edinburgh needs Edinburgh

    just like

    Aberdeen needs Aberdeen

    just like

    Dundee needs Dundee

    just like

    Broughty Ferry needs Broughty Ferry!

    just like…

    Scotland needs Scotland

    River Clyde

  202. Cactus says:

    Hey soul sister City of Edinburgh, Scotland ~

    How ye doin’?

    Who represents you here tonight…?

    The People of Glasgow are fucking excellent!

    How you doin…’?

  203. Cactus says:


  204. Cactus says:

    Your choice.



  205. Cactus says:

    Happy Birthday to everyandanybuddies whose birthday be today.

    Check you pretty… lookin’ ten years younger.

    All around this world.

    Go Glasgow.

    Mwah x.


  206. Cactus says:

    Pssst ~

    Share wae ye a secret…

    Being of a neutral nature… as I am

    Ah’ve kind of always thought about Scotland being a normal country.

    “MON the sailing ships take me now will pass you by.”

  207. Cactus says:

    Hey you ‘Independence Soon X‘ ~

    Could you do ur ‘Saltire of Smiles’ here for all, pretty please.

    DARE YE!


    🙂 😉 🙂

    A Saltire of Smiles…

    Breathe deep.


  208. Cactus says:

    Looks like ah’ve rattled this thread.

    Cheers thread.

    Ur cool.

  209. Cactus says:

    “Somebuddies gotta do it…”

  210. Cactus says:

    … and then there is the Apology of ra Daily Record ~

    THIS is too much fun.

    Soon be free.

    Be Be 1.

  211. Cactus says:

    Aweright n evening call me dave ~

    Likewise, same goes tae yerself.


    Y’all 😉

  212. Cactus says:

    ” We don’t see no ships! ”

    And there we have it.



  213. Cactus says:

    But WE can make em, ships…

    HELL, we will build them.

    HEAVEN only knows.

  214. Cactus says:

    Cheers yesterday, I believe in you.

    “…we will build them.”

    We shall.

  215. jk.scobie says:

    Try posting on the “Daily Record ” page on facebook , nothing good about Scotland, SNP and see how far you get

  216. jk.scobie says:

    Breeks, can only agree wholeheartedly…..this is what gov and msm are leading the Scottish people onto , but , how many can see this

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