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Wings Over Scotland

An apology to the Daily Record

Posted on October 20, 2017 by

Yesterday we noted the remarkable lack of coverage in the Scottish press about the workforce at BAE Systems in Govan being stabbed in the back yet again over UK government warship orders, with five Type 31 frigates promised to the yard (to replace five more expensive Type 26s) now going to Merseyside instead.

We claimed that newspapers including the Record had completely ignored the story in their print editions (and in most cases online as well), but an alert reader pointed out that it fact the Record HAD featured it, and we’re happy to correct our error.

Here it is, on page 14:

Did you spot it?

We’ll help you out a bit.

Tell you what, let’s zoom in.

So there you go. In three brief sentences approximately the size of two second-class postage stamps, Record readers were told that the vessels, worth hundreds of millions of pounds, “could be” moved and “may be” built somewhere else.

The reality is in fact somewhat more definite than that – the Type 31s are gone, BAE aren’t even going to try to bid to build them on the Clyde, and the expanded “frigate factory” promised by the UK government before the independence referendum is a dead duck floating on the water – but we suppose we understand why the Record would want to break the news of the latest betrayal gently.

Nevertheless, we care about facts at Wings Over Scotland and it wasn’t correct to say that the Record totally blanked the story yesterday. We offer the paper our apologies.

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  1. 20 10 17 10:56

    An apology to the Daily Record | speymouth

206 to “An apology to the Daily Record”

  1. Tartan Tory says:

    That’s what you call proper, front-page remorse! Well done Rev. 🙂

  2. jimnarlene says:

    I’ll bet that’s the last time we’ll see that headline, on a Wings page.

  3. heedtracker says:

    Torcuil Crichton’s best ever work for the UK in Scotland. Ah the great British journalist.

  4. Muscleguy says:

    ‘But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.’

    . . .

    ‘It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard”.’

  5. Capella says:

    Tucked away between a murder and celebrity gossip on page 14, I can’t understand how you managed to miss it, and, even when you found it, how you managed to not get the caring-and-sharing message.

    Was it not The Record that called itself “Scotland’s Champion”?

  6. Street Andrew says:

    And on we go.

    Just keep hammering, Stu.

    Things are moving I promise you. Slowly , but moving.

    I recommend this post to anyone who needs a realistic assessment of the nature of the difficulty of changing people’s opinions. And why it is so frustrating at times.

  7. Mikewr says:

    Muscleguy says:
    20 October, 2017 at 9:45 am
    ‘But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months……

    Great 🙂

  8. Welsh Sion says:

    An editor writes.

    You can tell it was a rush job, anyway.

    “The nexy generation …”

    Sexy, nexy generation of frigates anyone? 😉

  9. heedtracker says:

    How “news” works around this wonderful UK of tory media. Life comes at you pretty fast in the good old teamGB.

    Cammell Laird to make joint bid with BAE Systems to clinch £1.25bn warship contract
    Birkenhead yard to lead shipbuilding consortium in a move that could bring hundreds of new jobs to Merseyside

  10. Stoker says:

    Jeeeeezo! Standards in this place are sliding. 🙂

  11. heedtracker says:

    There is no shyster like a tory shyster.

    Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon said:
    “We are witnessing a renaissance in British shipyards and I look forward to visiting them as our new National Shipbuilding Strategy revitalises competition across the industry. “

  12. Fergus Green says:

    Issuing an apology for inaccurate reporting? Maybe you’re on to something here Stuart. Do you fancy sharing your idea with the tabloids? It might help them gain trust and boost sales.

    Just a thought.

  13. Artyhetty says:

    You’re a better man than me Stu for being so forgiving, and apologising as well. 😉

    Staggering isn’t it the blatant two finger gesture at Scotland right now. Those two fingers must be skeletal by now, being about 300 years old!

    Is there a list of all the promises made, and definitely not honoured and were never intended to be,
    anywhere? Update? Daft question I know.

  14. heedtracker says:

    Contracts with massive potential too, for our English chums.

    “Cammell Laird has very much welcomed the National Shipbuilding Strategy and the T31e competition. We will offer a UK warship design, a UK combat system, a UK build and a supply chain with high UK content. We will be working with BAE Systems’ design teams to deliver certainty, speed and agility on this nationally important project.

    Cammell Laird is proud to be responding as Prime Contractor and we believe we have a T31e offer which will generate further export opportunity.”

  15. Macart says:

    A bit gentle right enough.

    A less gentle bit of history:

  16. Lenny Hartley says:

    Street Andrew, thanks for that link, explains a lot from Religion to Brexit !

  17. call me dave says:

    What!…Then I read it.

    Scotland’s Chumpion right enough. 🙂

  18. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 20 October, 2017 at 9:45 am:

    “Was it not The Record that called itself “Scotland’s Champion”?”

    Which only serves to highlight what everyone else calls it.

  19. Ian Brotherhood says:

    My memory’s about as good as Anas Sarwar’s so I really can’t be sure – did the Record ever apologise for publishing ‘The Vow’?

  20. Marcia says:

    Magnifying glasses not free with every edition of the Daily Record.

  21. Graeme McCormick says:

    and guess who is one of Cammell Laird’s main shareholders? None other than Peel Ports who own Mersey Port and Clyde Ports. Peel Ports have a stranglehold on the Clyde and won’t cooperate with Jim McColl to have the space to build large merchant ships.

    The whole thing stinks!

  22. Dr Jim says:

    Waiting for the Record front page that blames the SNP obsession with Independence causing divisive insecurity in the UK and that’s the reason for spreading the contracts out elsewhere

    SNP Cause the end of shipbuilding in Scotland

    And they’ll print it in BIG

  23. Albert Herring says:

    Not fair, it’s the size of two FIRST class stamps.

  24. Could an MP not bring this whole debacle/betrayal up in Parliament through Urgent Questions ?

    `MPs may request that the Speaker considers their application for an Urgent Question each day. Applications for urgent questions must be submitted to the Speaker to receive an oral answer on the same day. The deadlines for application to the Speaker’s Office are as follows:

    Monday – 11.30am
    Tuesday and Wednesday – 10am
    Thursday – 8.15am
    Friday – 8.30am`

  25. heedtracker says:

    A less gentle bit of history:

    “Workers at the Clyde and Scotstoun yards were thrown a lifeline by Tory Defence Secretary Philip Hammond with the assurance that they are due to get work building the next generation of Royal Navy Type 26 Global Combat Ships.
    But the order for 13 Type 26 vessels will not be placed until after the September 2014 referendum on

    Is there any bigger shyster than a britnat shyster, in Scotland? and they know they can defraud Scots like this without any kind of UKOK hackdom interference at all.

  26. The daily stranger, the self proclaimed champion of what? it certainly isn’t of Scotland, given its role as the in the so called vow during the independence campaign.

    It still sticks to the line that the vow has delivered all the powers to Scotland was promised.

  27. heedtracker says:

    Never heard this Proclaimers song before but its just popped up in facebook. Might be on the minds of all Clydeside ship builders today though.

    Caps in hand.

  28. Bob Mack says:

    ” Whilst the Clyde yard concentrates on the more complicated frigates”.Platitudes and Weasel pish. This is about depriving the Scottish worker of their livlishood,and economy of millions of pounds, and nothing to do with skill sets.

    They can stick their frigates up their jack-staff or wherever the sun don’t shine. If nothing else it earns independence some further votes and then we will have work building our own naval vessels eventually.

  29. John Lowe says:


  30. CapnAndy. says:

    I am ready to stand corrected on this, but, I seem to remember the last time Cammell Laird built something for the RN it was a diesel electric submarine. It ran so far over time, the Navy had to sneak into the yard and steal it. I kid you not.

  31. Ha ha……was your apology accepted?

  32. Robert Peffers says:

    @Marcia says: 20 October, 2017 at 10:39 am:

    “Magnifying glasses not free with every edition of the Daily Record.”

    Correct, Marcia, but I heard a whisper that the Doily Wrecker is to run a competition to present one lucky reader with free use of the Jodrell Bank telescope for i hour every morning in order to look for either apologies or other hard to find content.

  33. winifred mccartney says:

    The Daily Record should be apologising to the whole of Scotland for the complete rubbish it printed before the referendum and analysing all the broken promises of the VOW. And still they wonder why they are dying – no surprise to us. Truth is always the first casualty of war and this is war for the minds and hearts of Scots.

  34. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Peters,

    I would rather Have hourly acupuncture on my eyeballs than look at anything in the Daily Unionist.

  35. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I am afraid I cannot make up my mind.

    Are the Tories and their media supporters trying to get us to vote Yes and go for Independence?


    Are they absolutely convinced, no matter what they do to Scotland, enough of us can be convinced to stick with the UK?

    If it’s the first option – how much damage will they do between now and Independence Day?

    If it’s the second – we are awe doomed.

  36. Macart says:


    That’s another one for the apologists claiming there was no intervention from HMG on the Clyde issue during indyref. I posted two more links to other titles yesterday and this morning and could post a great many more.

    Those workers and their families were given assurances on a prosperous future on returning a no vote in 2014. The picture painted by a great deal of the media throughout the period on that issue was VERY DEFINITELY carrot and stick. Vote NO stay in a job. Vote YES and watch orders disappear.

    And today?

    Personally, I’d say it’s at least a pretty clear case of misleading the public, if not outright betrayal.

  37. Robert Peffers says:

    @winifred mccartney says: 20 October, 2017 at 11:08 am:

    “The Daily Record should be apologising to the whole of Scotland for the complete rubbish it printed before the referendum”

    Now be fair, Winifred.

    If the Doily Wrecker were to print apologies for every wrong thing they printed then there wouldn’t be any room left for SNP BAAAAD! items or the Rangers/Celtic/dugs & Horses claptrap that passes as sports news on the back pages. Mind you, in that publication, (cough!), the back pages start with the front page.

  38. Blind Squirrel says:

    This apology should have been written in much smaller letters and hidden up the arse of a donkey. Like Gordon Brown for example.

  39. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I guess this is an indication of how NorthBritLab will deal with the news, being =whisper= another proof of how we’re broad-shouldered and Better Together.

    It’s all the same to the GMB union anyway, isn’t it, Mr. Leonard? A job here, a job there, who cares…?

  40. Chick McGregor says:

    A case of buried but not forgotten.

  41. Big Jock says:

    Never mind the SNP and Independence. The press are now gagging any story that reflects badly on London and WM. So they are backing England over Scotland at all levels. This is how low the North British press have sunk,pardon the pun.

    I am surprised that when we got knocked out of the World Cup by Slovenia they even reported it.

  42. Robert Graham says:

    How many Straws will it take before as they say the final Straw breaks the Camel’s back , just how many slaps in the face will it take for people here to waken up , the blind deaf and dumb act dosent wash now , this Tory party are Evil as opposed to Camerons EVEL that one act hours after they surrendered all control over their future and put it in the hands a Psychopathic bunch of crooks , should have alerted them to things to come .
    Despite all the damning evidence the Universal Credit fiasco hasn’t been , stopped , paused , or otherwise , by abstaining the tories merely listened to speeches and went ahead and carried on regardless , a symbolic victory was all that happened nothing else . It continues without a break .

  43. Patsy Millar says:

    I feel weepy when I read this. My gut feeling is that people will just accept this and move on. I no longer have confidence that the general public in Scotland look further than the headlines in the daily rags. That’s what they see when they go into their local supermarkets and although you do a great job online, I fear that the ones who vote are not always those who question exactly what it is they’re voting for.

  44. Ken500 says:

    Daily Record fecking liars. The stinking Vow. Now the sinking ships. The fumes of dishonestly reck all over the deck, The Daily Record. Just a fecking joke. Losing readers and profits bringing Scotland down at any price. The fifty pieces of Labour silver. Printing their press releases as fact. A pack of blooming lies. Fifty years of filthy Labour. Only voted in to keep the Tories out. All the unionists politicians a complete waste of time and space.

    Scotland will invest and build it’s own ship that have a use for them and can be sold. Or turbines to produce money. A magic money tree.

    The Tories will negotiate a EU agreement that will cost more for less rights. There is nothing surer. They are a bunch of total ignorant incompetents. A bunch of total idiots..

    MSM/SKy now totally giving a good, great case for EU membership. After all the damage they have done. Telling a pack of lies.

    The are trying to ignore Scotland as usual. They have a shock in store.

    Audit Scotland trying to say Scotland can’t ‘afford’? a £200Million transport investment in the Isles.

    They must be totally stupid. Totally ignorant incompetents. Do they not realise how much the Isles put into the Scottish economy. £Billions. Orkney/Shetland alone puts in £Billions in Oil & Gas related industry alone. The tourism whisky, food, drink energy contribution that they make. They raise £Billions of revenues. Yet Audit Scotland (MSM) believes giving £200Million transport investment back is unaffordable. Who are these clowns. An unaffordable quango. They should be sacked for peddling such nonsense propaganda. A bunch of dunces. Any investment in the Isles gives 100% back.

  45. Capella says:

    Wondering how the Brothers are coping with the news – with a leadership contest in full swing – I had a look at Labourhame. Nothing. I clicked through some of the luminaries of the Labour movement in the side bar. Nothing.


  46. heedtracker says:

    Macart says:
    20 October, 2017 at 11:17 am

    I think that even the most ardent NO vote Clydeside ship builder would have been a tad dubious of the UKOK frigate factory for example, or maybe not

    Its that blatant a britnat tory fraud today, red or blue tory.

    What is likely is that the Clyde will eventually lose all RN contracts and that will be that. They may get the odd maintenance contract to keep a yard open, but only for their britnat propagandists in Pacific Quay.

    Dark days ahead.

  47. Clootie says:

    The Daily Record…Scotland’s champion of the Union and Westminsters puppet

  48. heedtracker says:

    Capella says:
    20 October, 2017 at 12:01 pm
    Wondering how the Brothers are coping with the news – with a leadership contest in full swing – I had a look at Labourhame. Nothing. I clicked through some of the luminaries of the Labour movement in the side bar. Nothing.


    It is total radio silence across yoon culture, red or blue tory, very far right tory too, so not a squeak from my Slovene girlfriend for example.

    Prof Smirky rages at Scots in her blog,

    “Failure to Govern

    The SNP will be brought down not by unionists trying to out-nationalist the nationalists. That’s a mug’s game. Rather, they will be brought down by the opposition focusing relentlessly on the SNP’s record in office and by demonstrating to Scots that our solutions to Scotland’s problems are better than the SNP’s, even if we don’t tattoo the Saltire on every press release and policy announcement.”

    and on twitter,

    Adam Tomkins MSP?Verified account @ProfTomkins Oct 18

    Why is the SNP wasting taxpayer’s money on a scheme that is prohibitively expensive and unlikely to work?

    She’s destined for teamGB greatness, is my Slovene gal:D

  49. heedtracker says:

    From Daily Record top economist, columnist, commentator, dog food salesman, nothing…

    Its probably unfair to expect a tory roaster like kev to even attempt to explain tory UK reneges like this. Maybe pretending its not happening is the best way for planet toryboy.

  50. heedtracker says:

    Awe, Kev likes to listen to beeb gimp network bird songs, instead:D

    Kevin Hague Retweeted
    BBC Springwatch?Verified account @BBCSpringwatch 17h17 hours ago

    The talents of a bullfinch are surprising – you really need to hear this
    Via @BBCRadio4

  51. Welsh Sion says:

    Big Jock says:
    20 October, 2017 at 11:29 am

    I am surprised that when we got knocked out of the World Cup by Slovenia they even reported it.


    This was a Scottish failure – so naturally they reported it! 😉

    (Join the club (pun intended) of the nations that failed to qualify for the 2018 football World Cup!)

  52. Ken500 says:

    They are going to deport that lovely American couple the Felbers. How bloody dare they. The lowlife Tory scum. How many people from Scotland were given sanctuary in the US when unionists /Tories ruined their lives, and cleared them from their land. These people need sanctuary. They have done nothing wrong than invest in Scotland.

    Carmichael what a bitch doing this to people. How dare the judiciary do this to people. Who played by the rules and did exactly as they intended. They obeyed all the rules. Amber Rudd can rot in hell. The cowbag.

    Will no one in the Scottish judiciary/legal system do anything to help these people. Get up and fight for justice. It is just deplorable to treat people like that. The stinking lowlife greedy nasty. Tory scum.

    Scottish Gov -Nicola & Co put up a fund for these people. It will tarnish Scotland’s international reputation.

    Carmichael can rot in hell. No doubt attends Church every week. Not a bit of compassion. A unionist?

    The Labour leadership is going as planned as per usual. Fighting like rats in sack, cheating at every turn. Trades union implicated in the mess. The new members conveniently with the same e-Mail address. Multiple members with the same phone numbers. The ‘activist’ getting paid to shaft each other. Money for old rope. All for the poisoned chalice. Give them a year. Musical chairs. The others stay out of it. Too much anxiety and stress. What they will do for money. Total embarrassment.

  53. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic.Usher Hall,Edinburgh,Saturday of next week.

    “We are experiencing some technical difficulties with our ticketing system this morning. Our help desk is working on the issue and we hope to have the problems resolved as soon as possible. Online sales will be affected.

    Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause.”

  54. The trouble is the biggest slaves of all are the ones who do not realise that they are slaves doing as they are told by their masters and playing by their masters rules who’s sole purpose is to keep them down I remember seeing the. Photos of the shipyard workers for no standing proudly with their yellow hard hats on and I thought how appropriate

  55. heedtracker says:

    Photos of the shipyard workers for no standing proudly with their yellow hard hats on and I thought how appropriate

    They’ll maybe get a start with Cammell Laird on the Mersey. Or a tesco24 job when they infill the docks, shite chicken coop housing, slave wage store jobs…its what they did to the Scott Lithgow yards in Port Glasgow for example.

    Archeology now. Still a few Lodge’s hanging about, dreary union jacks flapping over the roof.

  56. ronnie anderson says:

    test test test

  57. Dan Huil says:

    Boycott all British nationalist media.

  58. Graeme McCormick says:

    O/T but I wonder how many sovereign parliaments have debated Catalonia.
    The Danes have:

  59. Heed tracker I agree with you I worked in the Glen yard in Port Glasgow I was a stager and a shop steward all the best

  60. Greannach says:

    “As a Socialist I rejoice for the downtrodden workers of Merseyside who have had to endure Tory misrule for too long. Let us turn our backs on the parochial narrow nationalism that demands these jobs for the Clyde. Let us show our solidarity with the international proletariat and show the world that the British worker is the finest in the world. In a non-parochial way.”


  61. Dan Huil says:

    Britnat MOD tells Scottish shipyard workers to “cheer up”.

  62. Robert Graham says:

    thanks for the link to the Herald , in the article it quoted one of the workers as saying if sturgeon had her way there would be no ships built, oh really pal if thats your opinion and the opinion of yer pals well ,f/you and yer mates dont expect help or tears from anyone when you’re looking for work and a shipyard overseas cuts the legs from you .Dumb & F/n Dumber dont come close .

  63. Andy-B says:

    Well, well, well the Vow pushing unionist rag the Daily Record, doing its utmost to squeeze bad news into a tiny wee corner, of its falling in sales daily comic.

    Imagine the outcry if the SNP had renegade on the ships, the unionist press and media would do a Michelle Thomson, and milk it for months.

    The majority of our media are against a progressive independent Scotland, they want to keep the status quo.

  64. HandandShrimp says:

    I seriously doubt that the Union leaders really believed the various promises back in 2014. They were Unionist first, representatives of their members second. They will carry the can and Union membership will drop further and they may well not care a jot. If there is another vote we will have no shortage of material to counter future promises.

    In other news, I see Finnie’s proposed bill has brought HYS to some sort of frothing crescendo. I can’t recall the last time I saw so many cranks, swivel eyed loons and atavistic knuckle draggers spouting so much cod philosophy and made up on the spot empirical evidence outside of the last QT Brexit show 🙂 It would seem our children are vile, out of control scum that don’t know the meaning of the word respect and that all children of middle class liberals are out mugging grannies every evening…all this before a ban too. It will be the end of civilisation as we know it!

    It would be hilarious if it were not for the sneaking suspicion that some of them have something to hide (although some of the assertions are so outlandish I think they may be trolling the board).

    sPeaK You’re BraNEs lives !.

  65. heedtracker says:

    Blair Paterson says:
    20 October, 2017 at 1:30 pm
    Heed tracker I agree with you I worked in the Glen yard in Port Glasgow I was a stager and a shop steward all the best

    No way. I spent summer of 95 on a jack up repair in the yard, never been to lower Clyde before, total culture shock, to see how vast Clyde shipbuilding once was, and how it’s all lost.

    Worst of it all was seeing and comparing how Norwegians, Danes, the Dutch have pumped so much money into their own Greenock and Port Glasgow industrial oil and gas heavy industry, transforming them completely. Why Scots have tolerated this kind of wholesale UKOK destruction and decay is a fcuking mystery.

    When we there in the Scott Lithgow yard, there was an endless stream of HGV’s from I think Germany, carting off all the heavy tool machinery, they demolished the heavy lift crane, and all of it reported by BBC Scotland as some kind of great British triumph.

    Its such a beautiful part of the world too, blighted now by poverty, crime, drugs, all the usual rule britannia misery. Lots of UK military retirees though, navy chaps, jolly nice, big union jack flegs in their gardens, over looking their region of Clyde estuary region of Scotland.

  66. Petra says:

    I bought that newspaper (and others) for months leading up to the Referendum to monitor what was going on. Wrote into their readers page constantly (never published) and was on their online site on a daily basis where Yes supporters comments were removed as soon as they’d been posted, especially if they contained facts. Were left on if they were nasty and ignorant (if it was a Yes supporter at all?). Bottom line was that they got away with murder, basically murdered the aspirations of a Nation over a few short months.

    “The size of two second-class stamps”. Amazing don’t you think when they used to have double page spreads on, as an example, Alex Salmond at different stages of stuffing his face with a Mars Bar in an attempt to discredit him. Day after day their newspaper was filled, page after page, with so-called experts, celebrities and hand picked ordinary people telling us, with obvious cherry picked comments, to vote NO.

    Right wing economists views featured regularly in the Labour supporting newspaper over many months with half a dozen sentences, if that, afforded to Stigliz. ‘Facts’ were quoted from unnamed ‘sources’ with Torcuil Chrichton going as far as to say that “a wee birdy told me that Prince Philip flatly refused to shake Alex Salmond’s outstretched hand”. The propaganda was unrelenting and how they ever got away with it is beyond me. A breach of UN rules in relation to interfering in and manipulating a democratic process to influence the outcome and a breach of Purdah with their VOW. And they’re still at it.

    Meanwhile nuclear weapons are dumped on our soil and to add insult to injury over 95% of MoD / shipping jobs are located south of the border. If ever there was a Nation of highly educated mugs this must be it.

  67. heedtracker says:

    Total blackout in stinky old Graun, which is odd as you’d think its all quite big news for English heavy industry, but they are reporting something Scottish today, for a change.

    Gerard Butler
    Gerard Butler: I injected myself with bee venom and ended up in hospital
    Scottish actor went into anaphylactic shock after using the remedy following a 12-hour day of performing stunts
    Gerard Butler injected himself with bee venom to use muscle ache.
    Gerard Butler injected himself with bee venom to use muscle ache. Photograph: SAV/GC Images

    Hannah Ellis-Petersen
    Friday 20 October 2017 13.26 BST

  68. Arbroath1320 says:

    Looking at the first image here I was struck at how quickly my eyes strained looking for the relevant article. Methinks the time has come to indulge myself with a high powered electron microscope so that future “articles” in unionist papers can be more easily searched for relevant “apologies” or other articles relaying bad news as a result of earlier Tory LIES.

  69. heedtracker says:

    Future Scottish First Minister Colonel Ruth in UKOK action. Doubt massed ranks of beeb Scotland gimps are asking their sock puppet leader for an opinion today.

  70. galamcennalath says:

    Bill boards needed in Glasgow…

    “Westminster cannot be trusted”

    … with promised number pictures of warships, Type 26 & 31, all but three of which have big red crosses in them.

    Needn’t say anything else. The message is crystal clear.

  71. yesindyref2 says:

    The reality is in fact somewhat more definite than that – the Type 31s are gone,

    That is NOT definite. BAE (stretched Cutlass / Avenger) are one of the companies who will tender, Babcock also have a tender (Arrowhead), and it is possible Ferguson could tender (e.g. Spartan).

    No order has been made.

    The tendering process does not start officially until early next year

  72. Proud Cybernat says:

    Jackie Baillie’s top 3 obsessions amount to a bucket of…

    (Tips hat to the Rev).

  73. Next time someone tells me they are against the smacking ban, I’m going to smack them.
    The usual middle class piffle.
    Who the fuck would lay hands on a three year old these days?
    Obviously Tory Brit Nat voters.

  74. Chick McGregor says:

    Scrabbling about in my archives I came across this from 2005 and thought it might be useful in assessing how things have changed – not.

    Well I suppose that is not quite true, the percentage of the population who now clearly see their tactics is much much greater than it was then.

    DOs and DON’Ts for Unionists in Scotland

    This crib-sheet of DOs and DON’Ts has been compiled as a quick reference for all true Unionists** operating in the field of anti-independence activities in Scotland. It is an extract of that which we regard as being the key actions from “The British Unionist’s Handbook” (with which you are probably more familiar).

    1. DO point out how well the Scottish economy is doing under the Union.

    2. DO claim Scotland cannot afford independence.

    3. DON’T, however, make points 1 and 2 to the same individual(s) at the same time. (slight compatibility problem).

    4. DO claim that North Sea oil is about to run out. It’s harder to sell the ‘oil isn’t worth much’ line since those troublesome ‘McCrone Report’ revelations under the Freedom of Information Act.

    5. If you are influential in UK Government DO what you can to prevent Scottish companies and industries becoming a source of national pride. The less Scots feel able to prosper under independence the less they will be willing to vote for independence. It also will do no harm to infer that a London government may be capable of hurting a post-independent Scotland economically, but never state this baldly.

    6. If you are influential in UK Government DO not baulk from limiting Scottish democratic rights if necessary. In particular DON’T ever allow a referendum on independence if you can possibly avoid it.

    7. If you are influential in UK Government DO cut the budget to the Scottish Executive if it is an SNP one, so that not all of their commitments can be fulfilled. Work with the UK Treasury on this. Then claim targets not met are the SNP’s fault.

    8. DO claim that the SNP would create an ‘Albanian style socialist republic’.

    9. DO claim that the SNP are ‘Tartan Tories’.

    10. DON’T, however, claim 8 and 9 at the same time and again, make sure of your audience’s political leanings first.

    11. If you work in the media, DO portray SNP politicians in as bad a light as possible e.g. doing something trivial or seemingly carefree or arrogant. On the other hand, portray Unionist politicians as being serious and competent.

    12. If you work in the media, DO report as often as possible anything which might help to lower Scots self-esteem. This is vital, if the electorate do not feel confident enough they will not vote for independence supporting parties. So lie if you have to.

    13. If you work in the media, DON’T report poll results on straightforward independence, they frequently show a majority for it. If you must do so, make sure these are ‘buried’ as much as possible.

    14. If you work in the media and are interviewing politicians, DO make sure you are more aggressive with the pro-independence interviewee. Cut him/her off if they seem to be making a good point, and change the subject. Ridicule their answers and always let the Unionist have the last word. Wherever possible, emphasise division in the pro-independence camp.

    15. If you work in the media, DON’T use the Scots language except for ridicule or deprecation of Scottish culture.

    16. If you work in the media, wherever possible DO seek out comment from an English accented individual, especially in authority situations. Never use a person with a Scots accent unless you have to. The exception is football, but we are even making progress there.

    17. If you work in the History sector, (Universities, museums, historical sites), DO your best to eradicate or play down any nationalist content. The scourge of nationalism must be politically cleansed from our past, it only lends encouragement to independence ideas.

    18. If you work in the History sector, DO claim that nothing of importance happened in Scotland prior to the Union. In particular Wallace is to be ignored, or if that is not possible, portray him as a terrorist. Portray the Bruces as self-seeking French rejects.

    19. If you work in the History sector, DO claim that Scots were enthusiastic partners in Empire after the Union and that nationalism only reared its ugly head in the last few decades. Claim England really came to Scotland’s rescue in 1707 and that it was appreciated.

    20. If you work on a cultural quango DO try to make sure that Scottish culture, particularly Folk and Celtic Music, goes ignored and unfunded. Encourage the output of politically cleansed material which promotes the Union, especially on TV.

    21. If you work in the cultural sector, DO encourage the output of films and theatrical productions which denigrate Scottish culture. Negative, we know, but the key to success is to keep Scots’ national self-esteem down as much as possible. Comedy is particularly effective here as any criticism of it can be pooh-poohed as demonstrating a lack of sense of humour.

    22. DO infer that Scots just aren’t good enough to govern themselves but DON’T ever put that in writing or you risk a charge of racism.

    23. DO describe the SNP as being the ‘Proddy Party’ to private audiences of Catholics.

    24. DO describe the SNP as being the ‘Papist Party’ to private audiences of Protestants.

    25. DON’T make points 23 and 24 at the same time and once more make sure of your audience first.

    For clarification for the reasoning behind these tips, and for many more, refer to your copy of “The British Unionist’s Handbook”.


    It is vital that this document should only be distributed to true British Unionists. Do not for a split second, think that all those who vote for Unionist parties can be trusted with the information in this document. The vast majority of them only vote for Unionist parties because we have managed to put some sort of doubt in their mind about the viability of an independent Scotland, in their heart of hearts they would still like to see an independent Scotland if they could.

    So make sure this document only gets into the right hands – true, proud, British Unionists who put Britain first, who would be pro-Union even if it definitely meant Scotland would be worse off.

    Remember, we may be in the minority but we are in the right – it is our duty to save Scotland from itself.

    Rule Britannia!

  75. yesindyref2 says:

    The question is, should Fergusons tender for the T31e?

    I’d say yes, they should tender, at least for the experience of actually putting together a tender for a naval vessel. Scotland could be independent by 2021, and the SDF would need to look at naval vessels. Clearly they’d be better built on the Clyde (or Rosyth), so Scotland would need our own shipbuilders who can build naval vessels as well as commercial.

    But if they do, it is a fixed price contract unlike the way the MOD usually works, where changes are requested by the RN and incorporated, and the price goes up.

    So Fergusons would need a cast iron contract, and the tender which creates it, to allow for change and renegotiation – and increase in price – if changes were requested after the tender was accepted, if it was.

    Though they don’t have theur own design (presumably) there is the Spartan which is a design not from a builder, and there’s also the Venator from BMT.

    But I think it unlikely they will tender, which is a loss for iScotland, but the safer option for Fergusons.

  76. Glamaig says:

    @Jack Collatin

    its quite worrying reading them on BBC HYS. Hundreds of people desperate to smack children. It’ll be interesting to see it go through Holyrood and watch the Tories fight for the right to beat their kids up.

  77. Proud Cybernat says:

    “How many Straws will it take before as they say the final Straw breaks the Camel’s back , just how many slaps in the face will it take for people here to waken up…”

    There are those with their minds set – on both sides – that simply will not change their view regardless of ANY empirical evidence that will show any weakness – big or small – in their view with regards to the constitutional question. Indeed, any such empirical evidence that shows a particular view to be flawed will often be met with total resistance and an even greater determination to ‘resist’. It’s known as the ‘backfire effect’ and I think someone linked to a good article on the phenomenon in the previous thread.

    But there are those out there, the ‘floating voters’, who do not have particularly strong views on the constitutional question. Those are the voters we need to persuade. Most floating voters will often tend to side with the status quo, ‘better the devil you know’ and all that. And that is another thing we have to target – there is presently no such thing as the ‘status quo’. BREXIT has totally changed the game. The seekers of the safe harbour of the ‘better the devil you know’ persuasion, of ‘minimal change’ must be told in unequivocal terms that THERE IS NO STATUS QUO. They must be shown that whether we vote for Indy or to continue with the UK – things WILL change.

    And here’s the key. These voters must be shown that:

    a) Indy Scotland in Europe = MINIMAL change whereas
    b) BREXIT Scotland in UK = MASSIVE.change.

    That is, imho, where we have to target our resources and how we will win IndyRef2. These people don;t particularly care about politics but they don’t like change. That is our message – CHANGE IS COMING. Scotland remaining in Europe will have the LEAST impact on their lives than a BREXITED Scotland in UK cut loose in a stormy sea, trying to rebuild our economy from scratch. That is the BIGGEST change and it will be a change that will damage them financially and in countless other ways.

    In short – these folks don’t like change but change is coming. Indy Scotland is not the status quo but it offers the LEAST amount of change, the least financial damage to these voters.


  78. Robert Peffers says:

    @Patsy Millar says: 20 October, 2017 at 11:37 am:

    “I no longer have confidence that the general public in Scotland look further than the headlines in the daily rags.”

    Thing is, Patsy, that the great Scottish Public, far from being stupid, are ignorant by choice. People faced with any distasteful facts react in one of two main ways.

    The first main reaction is to put all such distasteful things on the proverbial back burner and then ignore them while they simmer away in the background. Then go out to the local café to eat.

    The other is to stand firm and stir the problem to prevent it sticking to the bottom of the pot and burning while it cooks properly then serve hot and enjoy at home.

    Indy supporters are the latter and the others are those who just ignore what is going on. They are neither bad people nor stupid people they have just decided to ignore all things political and continue on as they did before.

    Then there are the really evil and nasty ones who don’t even go into the kitchen. They have, “people”, to do things for them while they remain in charge of the household. These are the unionists – they have no grasp of the situation in the kitchen – they have people to do the cooking, they have people to serve the meal up to them in their dining room and they have people to take away the dishes, wash, dry and put the dishes away.

    While they sit in the Drawing Room and have other people pour and serve the drinks. These last don’t run the United Kingdom – they have people to run it for them.

    Thing is none of the last three types have a clue as to what is actually going on because they have no reason to find out.

    “Condemn’d alike to groan,
    The tender for another’s pain;
    Th’ unfeeling for his own.
    Yet ah! why should they know their fate?
    Since sorrow never comes too late,
    And happiness too swiftly flies.
    Thought would destroy their paradise.
    No more; where ignorance is bliss,
    ‘Tis folly to be wise.

    From the poem. “Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College.”. by Thomas Grey, (English Poet).

    You can read the whole poem here:-

  79. Chick McGregor says:


    Another great speech by Nicola, intelligent, forward looking while not being dogmatic about it.

    Just imagine what she could achieve if she concentrated on her day job, unlike Colonel Bake Off.

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 20 October, 2017 at 12:01 pm:

    ” … I had a look at Labourhame. Nothing. I clicked through some of the luminaries of the Labour movement in the side bar. Nothing.”

    I shop stewarded for many years, Capella. I was the only non-Labour steward in the entire industrial workforce of Rosyth Dockyard that had, at its peak, a combined workforce of over 10,000. It was unwritten Trade Union policy, (all unions), to keep the members in ignorance.

    It came as a great shock to my own workshop members when I personally handed each union member a slip that allowed them to either legally withhold the political levy or, alternatively, for their levy to go to their personal choice of organisation.

    Other stewards, of all unions, would resist getting such slips for their members, even when directly requested to do so.

  81. Foonurt says:

    Thoan’s whit ye caw, ah richt schoonurr.

  82. Bob Mack says:

    In spite of Yes indy refs protestations I think we all know the truth that the Clyde yards will be excluded from building these ships ,purely as a political message to Scotland.

    I read with interest the comments from Chic and others really voter apathy on independence. Looking at my own transition to wishing an independent Scotland,it was not an early held ideal, and in fact, only came about prior to 2014.

    Prior to this I was preoccupied with the Daily routine of life, centred around kids, schools ,work, houses etc. Indy Scotland was not even on the list. Only when I considered the possibilities,and did some research , perhaps because of having more time on my hands following retirement, did it become clear that I had been living in ignorance of my potential to be a free citizen of Scotland rather than the UK.

    I was not wilfully ignorant, but rather ignorant through lack of research and knowledge. I now know better, and, if we keep banging our message home, then I rest assured others will follow.

  83. heedtracker says:

    Just imagine what she could achieve if she concentrated on her day job, unlike Colonel Bake Off.

    There’s serious trouble ahead though Chic. Brexit’s going to make a lot of people a lot poorer than today even, as food prices rocket up and up. Don’t know if you food shop but holy shit, its getting more expensive week by week

    But we are still owned and governed by tory arsewipes like this, Graun latest,

    “Senior Tory Brexiteer Bernard Jenkin has warned the prime minister she should not sign up to a deal at any price, suggesting that failure to strike a deal would not be as bad as feared.

    He told BBC News: “The cost of paying tariffs on our exports to the EU would be less than half our annual net contribution. It is cheaper to pay for access to the single market by paying the tariffs than for us to be continuing to pay our subscription as a member of the EU.

    “We are pulling out halfway through a budget process. It is only reasonable that we should consider helping the EU out as we leave the EU and withdraw our contributions but if this becomes much more expensive than envisaged it is simply not worth it.”

    The tosser is not saying that almost exactly half UK export market is to the EU. But the UK only really exports “services” not goods to the evil and cruel EU blighters. Without a deal, that UK/EU service export market is all over.

    UK is approx 15% of EU market but it is actual goods, not services, and the EU can easily cope with WTO tariff charges.

  84. Petra says:


    The National is going to publish a six-part series on the North Sea and Gas industry on Monday.

    ‘Professor Alex Russell, Chair of the Oil Industry Finance Association which sets standard oil accounting procedures for the sector, starts with what he describes as an alternative view of it, which he says is “based unashamedly on what past and future generations of Scots have lost by the way Scotland’s oil and gas wealth has been plundered, squandered and mismanaged by successive Tory and Labour Governments”.’

    The implications of the McCrone Report will be mentioned.

    ‘Russell moves from oil’s earliest days, through the 1980’s when Westminster selling off state owned oil companies and handing control of them and the oilfields to multinationals, “simply beggars belief”.

    Norway gets mentioned as does fracking, decommissioning and renewables.

    I see that more and more experts are using the National to get the truth out there, such as Richard Murphy and even Catalan politicians.



    Because you ain’t going to read or hear of this elsewhere, such as in the lying Daily Record: The biased MSM in general. Scottish MSM seemingly the most biased in Europe. Journalistic standards the absolute pits in other words.

  85. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 20 October, 2017 at 12:10 pm:

    “I think that even the most ardent NO vote Clydeside ship builder would have been a tad dubious of the UKOK frigate factory for example, or maybe not

    The thing is, heedtracker, their insane strategy can only work for them for as long as they can fool people, in both Kingdoms of this, “union of kingdoms”, to accept the totally illegal propaganda myths they have been working at instilling in the minds of, (basically the entire World), that the United Kingdom is not in fact a union of kingdoms but is a single unified whole, or indeed a single country.

    Let’s be quite clear about this – they have also had the long term aim of not only making the bipartite United Kingdom seem to be a single country but are also working hard to make everyone believe that the entire British Isles is a single unified country.

    Just pay close attention to their many, many speeches and papers where the get away with calling Westminster, “The British Parliament”, and then going on with such phrases as, “The whole country”, when referring to the United Kingdom or indeed Britain. Furthermore they also often transpose the term England for any of the other distinct entities that exist within the British Isles.

    For example this very week it will have passed by most Britons that the Government of the Republic of Ireland had made recourse to the use of The Republic of Ireland Army to assist in helping victims of the storm damage. Are not these troops from a part of the British Isles?

    Sadly I have not come across a single person from the Republic that still claims to live in/on the British Isles and there are Wingers posting here who claim they are not British. They thus are doing the Westminster imperialist’s work for them.

    My point, then, is that when the Kingdom of Scotland leaves the United Kingdom it is not as the country of Scotland they must leave the still united, “United Kingdom”, but as the, equally Sovereign, Kingdom of Scotland and thus it will end the United Kingdom. What remains is legally the, three country, Kingdom of England.

    Strangely it hasn’t yet filtered through to most indy supporters that Westminster has been working hard at this propaganda since long before even the Union of the Crowns.

    Which so called Union of the Crowns was in fact a result of a marriage of convenience between two royal children long before James VI was even born.

    Why in fact do Scots Nationalists believe that the English kings and queens, such as the Edwards and Henry’s, all attempted to force Scots monarchs to swear allegiance to the throne of England?

    Believe it or not I was Lochgellied at school for interrupting schoolies and correcting their erroneous claims during history lessons. I kid you not, even when they spoke about Roman Britain as if the entire British Isles had been under Roman Rule.

    Why the hell did they imagine the Gask Ridge/Road, The Antoine Wall and Hadrian’s Wall were constructed by Roman Legionnaires? Yet there the Dominies were teaching as if Scotland had been part of Roman Britain and thus part of the Roman Empire. Quite simply Scotland, neither country or kingdom, was never part of the Roman Empire. Factually it was that Roman Empire that led to two very distinct countries/kingdoms.

    Factually the abrupt changes across the Scottish/English borders is far more distinctly different than across any other European border neighbours. Even between The Republic of Ireland and the UK there is little sign of change.

    If a wee Scottish school laddie could work out the truth of history, even at primary school level, how did these teachers manage to get qualified unless it was official policy to teach such propaganda? Note these teachers also tried to Lochgelly our two main Scottish languages out of us.

    There you have the truth. The re-writing of our true history began in south Britain way back in Roman times and there was previously no written down British history before around 54BC.

  86. heedtracker says:

    Robert Peffers

    I don’t know Robert, the further we get from 18 Sept 2014, all I hear is that SLabour dude whatisface Davidson, running around wrapped in a union jack, bayoneting the wounded.

    Yoon culture in Scotland did not see their win 2014, as the end of their war on Scotland.

  87. Andy-B says:

    “I understand anger at Douglas Ross skiving. But what irks me is constituents getting in touch to tell me their Tory MP won’t reply to them”

    “I’ve loads of vulnerable constituents coming to me for help because they get nothing from their MP- and I’m not alone”

    “And to think I used to be able to signpost folk to two incredibly hard working SNP MPs who would do their best for them. It’s distressing”

    Aberdeenshire is in a bit of a mess since the Tory’s won seats their at the last GE.

  88. heedtracker says:

    So for example, beeb gimp propaganda was belching out stuff like, its the lowest unemployed level ever in teamGB this week, especially BBC r4 gimps.

  89. Rock says:

    “the workforce at BAE Systems in Govan being stabbed in the back yet again over UK government warship orders”

    The British Nationalists voted No in 2014.

    Stabbed in the back or not, they will probably vote No again.

  90. Az says:


    I switched the radio on a short time ago, it was still on EBC Radio Shortbread as I last listened to some football commentary. Within just 5 minutes, I had literally shouted “F### OFF” at it three times, and my blood pressure had soared. Relentless BS propaganda.

  91. Rock says:


    “If ever there was a Nation of highly educated mugs this must be it.”

    Rock (2nd January 2015 – “The Ne’erday Game”):

    “Unfortunately, we have among us the most stupid people on the planet. Given the chance of 300 years, those who should have known better voted No.”

  92. chocolass says:

    On holiday in Findochty on the glorious Moray coast for a week-great to see so many cars and houses with yes stickers!Also great to hear local accents,honest and true!

  93. heedtracker says:

    “Unfortunately, we have among us the most stupid people on the planet. Given the chance of 300 years, those who should have known better voted No.”

    That’s just slander Rock, as you know full well. BBC Scotland alone were at the forefront of a hysterical vote NO or else terror campaign on all Scots, that reached 110% hysteria by 18 Sept 2014.

    And that’s just one arm of a giant tory BBC propaganda network of lies and terror. Throughout the night before Scots ref1 day, BBC World Service on the hour news headlined, Islamic terrorists were beheading shoppers in Australia, shopping malls were under siege by 1000’s of Australian police, at the order of then Australian PM Abbott. Completely terrifying, followed by, and this morning Scotland goes to the polls to decide whether or not to separate from the UK.

    Does it get any sleazier than BBC attack propaganda Rock, or idiots like you?

    August 16 2014, 1:01am,
    The Times

    Tony Abbott has made the most pointed intervention yet by a foreign leader

    Scottish independence would be a victory for the enemies of freedom and justice, the Australian prime minister has said in the most pointed intervention yet by a foreign leader in the independence debate.

    A win by the Yes campaign would be cheered abroad by countries that opposed British values and influence, while an independent Scotland would make little positive impact on the world stage, Tony Abbott told The Times.

  94. Effijy says:

    I once worked on the Navy Frigates on the Clyde and as I was assured by an English MOD Inspector, no where else in the UK
    provided the quality of workmanship that the Clyde does.

    In his own words he claimed that the yards in Northern Ireland and In Barrow, England keep making a mess of things possibly to extend the length of each contact and as job are scare in those areas,
    the government just keeps upgrading their budgets.

    A hand full of us were flown down to Portsmouth to re-terminate some electrical/electronic plugs as no one down there know what to do with them.

    This reminds me of when Rosyth was up against Devenport to support future submarine works.
    The government refused Rosyth the right to amend their bid, before it was even opened, they gave the work to Devenport,
    and not too long later the government had to give then several £Million to upgrade their berths as they had major cracks on the dry dock walls.

    Complete Westminster Stitch up yet again with Scotland playing the lead role as the gullible mug who continually believes what these compulsive liars say.

    I’m not too despondent as it should be just another step toward breaking up another English ruled colony.

  95. shug says:

    I have said this before but the people that work in the yards deserve to lose their jobs for believing Westminster would ever deliver their promise.

    They have a clear and concise track record.

    If they have any balls they would down tools now.

    The workers have to realize that they need to make their own decisions, we need to have a government that cares about our economy.

    Voting labour or conservative in Westminster is beyond stupid

    I have no sympathy

  96. Rock says:


    ““Unfortunately, we have among us the most stupid people on the planet. Given the chance of 300 years, those who should have known better voted No.”

    That’s just slander Rock, as you know full well.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, congratulations on finally learning to use inverted commas when quoting someone.

    This must also be slander by your standards:

    “If ever there was a Nation of highly educated mugs this must be it.”

  97. yesindyref2 says:

    One of the things the Scottish Government can do even now, is to prepare a simple one page description of how it does its tendering processes, for such as the ferries it already puts out tenders for. That document would be aimed at us, the general public, and could describe briefly the contracts it does with its orders.

    It would then be simple for any party or group to extend this to tendering for the likes of a Scottish Navy during Indy Ref 2, and that could help not just with the shipyard workers, but the communities around.

    It could be a counter to Project Fear 2 and Fallon “Vote YES and you won’t get the other 5 Type 26”.

    No, but we will get our own frigate builds, patrol vessel builds, large deck amphibs, support vessels, oilers and solids, tenders and dredgers, and marine and army amhibs. So where will we build these? Now let me see …

  98. jfngw says:

    There seems to be more Scot that would rather be governed by those from outside Scotland rather be governed by those from other parts of Scotland. A sort of old firm cringe reflected into politics, ‘I’m not being governed by those b*st**d’s effect.

  99. Rock says:


    “BBC Scotland alone were at the forefront of a hysterical vote NO or else terror campaign on all Scots, that reached 110% hysteria by 18 Sept 2014.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, whenever I call for the destruction of the BBC, you butt in that its impossible.

    That also makes Scottish independence impossible.

    Rock (21st May – “This wheel’s on fire”):

    “As I have said before, Scotland will not become independent until the BBC has been completely destroyed.

    Our priorities should be:

    1. Completely destroy the BBC;

    2. Hold an independence referendum.”


    “Yes well we can’t Einstein. BBC is a core UK institution, like the cops, military, NHS, royals, you name it.”

  100. heedtracker says:

    “If ever there was a Nation of highly educated mugs this must be it.”

    Don’t need a degree to scope a fear mongering reprobate btl like you Rock.

  101. ronnie anderson says:

    @ heedtracker re Gerard Butler I hope he enjoy’s the next 3 yrs getting preventative treatment at Gartnavel Hosp the only hosp in britain to do this treatment , my Wife is on the last year of preventative treatment to boost her immunity , this coming Tues will be 3hrs at the Hosp injection 1 hr wait then consultant .

    Enjoy Mr Butler ( idiot )

  102. Robert Graham says:

    Thanks for the link to Nicolas speech it was an interesting read, of course this can’t be viewed by anyone outside the Independence movement we can’t have people being informed .
    The BBC in Scotland cover it but choose to hi-light only one part, the investment bank, this obliging effort of course is their Cue to allow the other Unionist parties to have a snipe at it ,how obliging of them and the rubbishing comments are as much as the speech that they cover, how f/n nice eh .
    Where would we be without the BBC, a rhetorical question . B/trds every one .

  103. galamcennalath says:

    Proud Cybernat says

    These voters must be shown that:

    a) Indy Scotland in Europe = MINIMAL change whereas
    b) BREXIT Scotland in UK = MASSIVE.change.

    That is, imho, where we have to target our resources and how we will win IndyRef2.

    Agree completely. In IndyRef1 there was genuine fear of change. That is why Project Fear played a part in the NO win. There was no need to create fear, just stoke it up a bit.

    Indy for the undecided / swithering seemed a bit scary.

    Indy for those who thought they had something to lose, it was bloody terrifying.

    IndyRef2 and the tables should have turned and we need to make sure they are seen to have switched. Indy will in many situations look like the least scary because much of the status quo can be preserved. Staying with the Union will look the risky option for those out to look after their own interests.

    I’m not suggesting a counter Project Fear, because the new reality should render a pro Union fearmongering campaign look ridiculous! I’d prefer to simply neutralise false propaganda and let people see the safe options and enormous potential to move on.

  104. Ian Foulds says:

    Robert Peffers at 3.19pm

    Were you describing lobsters in the pot, perchance?

  105. Ian Foulds says:

    Robert Peffers at 4.55pm


  106. TheWasp says:

    Thomson the Aberdeen fud of an MP poopooing the investment bank, as it is only a ruse to cover up the mess the SNP have made of the Scottish economy. He is an arse but at least he’s a consistent arse.

  107. heedtracker says:

    Our priorities should be:

    1. Completely destroy the BBC;

    What with Rock, the Death Star?

    BBC is just corrupt, corrupted by tory britnats.

    Tories have destroyed the BBC on their own, they do not need anyone’s help basically.

    And they’re awful at making telly and radio too. Its probably not a coincidence Rock.

    You are a con though, trying to put the fear of refs up anyone who actually reads your tripe.

  108. mike cassidy says:

    (1)Is there any one place which has recorded the new oil and gas discoveries since the referendum?

    It would be great to have a one-page list to show people when confronted with that “running out of oil” bollocks.

    Not that I’m expecting such a list to appear in the Daily Record anytime soon.

    (2)Statehood article worth reading.

    In view of all the ‘join this/join that’ noise around an independent Scotland, its interesting to note that despite Cyprus being in the EU since 2004,EU writ does not apply to the part of Cyprus which declared independence in 1983.

  109. Dr Jim says:

    Tonights top stories from Reporting Scotland

    Beep beep beeep beeep, Some woolly poppies were knitted, Beep Beep beep, Geese were chased off a field, Beep beep beep, now some football and the weather

    So much to take in at once

  110. yesindyref2 says:

    Not even a mention of Fallon’s visit on STV or ITV news, what a disgrace.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    STV was a rape, balcony death in Spain, some bird with a camera, poppies, and some old guy, as well as the usual sport, was at 12x or 30x so sadly misssed all that fascinating crap. I think it did cover Wishart.

  112. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dr Jim –



  113. yesindyref2 says:

    STV was a r*pe, balcony death in Spain, some bird with a camera, poppies, and some old guy, as well as the usual sport, was at 12x or 30x so I sadly misssed all that fascinating crap. I think it did cover Wishart.

  114. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @yesindyref2 –

    Do you mean to say that Bernard The Ponsonby didn’t confront Fallon today?

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    The Rev does his best, The National does its best, even the Herald does its best, the Scotsman fairly anaemic, and what does our great fecking broadcasters do? Feck all, they don’t give two solitary shites about the Clyde, the T26, the T31e, the workers on the Clyde, the future of naval shipbuilding on the Clyde, it’s some bird and some poppies, the usual depressing Scotland is shite crimes, feck all, and feck them all the bastards.

    I need a break, problem is can I keep myself away from all this shite for a weekend.

  116. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @yesindyref2 –

    Don’t let the fekkers get to ye!

    Have a wee break ower on OT, spin some of yer favourite records…

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
    Maybe he’s on holiday, along with the rest of STV – and the so-called BBC Scotland.


  118. mike d says:

    Shrug 5.46pm. Spot on, if any yoon party voter in Scotland loses their jobs through westmidden austerity policies.Am i going to try and convert them to yes?, No f**k them,they deserve all they get in f*****g spades. These ‘people ‘are beyond converting,And i hope it hurts.

  119. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @yesindyref2 –


    Or maybe Ponsonby’s stowed himself away in the boot of the ministerial car, waiting for the right moment to exact his revenge…

  120. frogesque says:

    @yesindyref2 7.57

    Take a break you deserve it! Have a swally, listen to some music, go for a walk (preferably with a dog) or whatever floats your boat.

    You do so much for the movement but no use to you or anyone else if you burn out. I know this Independence stuff and the frustration that goes with it can get to anyone but stay strong.

    Just come back when you feel ready.

  121. Lenny Hartley says:

    The frigate story was on misreporting Scotland at Lunchtime, apparently some of the super dooper electronics works will be carried out by Glasgow based base guys, so that’s ok then , you could even tell the cub reporter knew he was spouting shite.

  122. Petra says:

    Couple of snippets from the National:

    Questions are now being raised about Douglas Ross’s official Parliamentary Register of Interests. The National can reveal that Ross has claimed that he only works “1.5 hours” at a football match, but in the two European games at which he has officiated this season, governing body EUFA insisted that refereeing teams be available to be at a match venue from 5pm on the day prior to a game until the morning after it – a minimum of 36 hours.’ So he’s been telling porkies.

    ‘The National understands that senior figures in the SFA are concerned that Ross has brought “attention” to himself.’ And we’ll all be keeping a close eye on him from now on.

    Oh and in case some, say newbies, weren’t aware, “not a single Scottish Tory MP stood up for their constituents by opposing the disastrous roll-out (of Universal Credit).”

    Same old, same old – Scottish Labour and Tory politicians lolling around in the Commons doing what some wee English man or woman tells them to do. What on earth’s the point of them? We’ve had a hundred years of this cr*p. They’d all be better off, as would we, pursuing their hobbies like Ross and just let T May get on with it on her ownsome.


    Catalonia’s top man in the UK, Sergi Marcen, head of the Catalan Delegation to the UK, has given an exclusive interview to the National.

    He states (over and above a great deal more) that, “they are using the Catalan issue because they don’t want the population to talk about the corruption in [Rajoy’s] Partido Popular. They use Catalonia so people will look the other way.”


    ‘A new group has sprung up in Scotland to back the Catalan cause in the shape of the Catalan Defence Committee Scotland, which emerged from the demonstrations organised by Jonathon Shafi, co-founder of the Independence campaign.

    He says “Jeremy Corbyn should be speaking to the PSoE, the Spanish equivalent of the Labour Party, to say they shouldn’t back the triggering of direct rule Article 155.”

    And more from him, Monica Pons and Liz Castro.


    And a wee snippet from me: …. Mug = Gullible. Stupid = Lack of intelligence.

  123. Scott says:

    Sorry about posting about this again but it is a bloody disgrace.

    Judge backs Home Office bid to deport American couple

    Maybe the Tank Commander and her gallant troops could make Rudd change her mind.

  124. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
    LOL 🙂 WOuldn’t surprise me right enough.

    @frogesque / Ian
    Think I’ll give it a go, having a break. Maybe watch some fiction, oh no, don’t want any MSM or TV news. Maybe some fantasy, oops, that’s Unionist promises again.

    Sifi! Yeah, and musak!

  125. heedtracker says:

    Herald, should be another tortuous round of bollox too. Start of Westminster Spain style ref2 block no doubt.

    19th October
    Yes or No: MPs will debate indyref2 issue on back of public petitions

    THE topic of whether or not there should be another referendum on Scottish independence is to be debated by MPs next month.

    The Commons debate on Monday November 13 has come about because of two petitions from the public, one of which reached the required level – 100,000 signatures – meaning there is a presumption that it will be discussed at Westminster.

    The first petition called for there not to be another vote on Scotland’s future, which attracted 221,514 signatures.

  126. Petra says:

    @ yesindyref2 at 7:52pm …… “I need a break.”

    It gets to most of us at some time or another yesindyref2. In fact it’s amazing that most of us have managed to keep going over the years. Best example of all, of course, is Stu.

    Going for a walk, listening to music, watching a movie (especially funny) or reading a book can all help, or taking up meditation, but what really helps me is emailing the B’s. You’ve put together a great deal of data on the subject. Copy and send it to them asking why you’ve found yourself in the position of having to inform Scots when that’s supposed to be their bl**dy job. I find it gets rid of my frustration, agitation, anger etc, etc, etc. And then I get back to normal again. Whatever “normal” may be, lol.

  127. heedtracker says:

    ronnie anderson

    Sorry to hear about Mrs Anderson, Ronnie. Hope the treatment works ofcourse!

  128. ronnie anderson says:

    Sorry to hear Ken McDonalds in Hospital , he say’s he will be in for a few days , lets wish him a speedy recovery .

  129. Ken500 says:

    Ross Thomson wouldn’t know anything about investment banks but he certainly knows about wasting £Billions of taxpayers money. He left Aberdeen City Council £1.2Billion in debt. Him and his unionists cronies illegally sold the City on the stock exchange. They wasted £200Million on a groteque monstrosity. No one wanted. A total waste of money. Ruining the City Centre. Shut and ruined the Art Gallery for years. Destroyed the Aberdeen Artist exhibition, The Art Gallery was built to house. Shut the Music Hall for years. The City Centre is like a ghost town. The displaced traffic is causing traffic chaos. Dangerously high emission levels.

    That’s what Ross Thomson was party too before he fecked off to Westminster. With the rest of the miserable, useless bastards. Evicting good people from Scotland who have invested in the Highlands.

    The Tory bastards like Ross Thomson deliberately ruining the Oil & Gas sector with illegally high taxes. 40% tax since Jan 2016. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. 120,000. They are doing the same with the Whisky industry. Scotland could have had full employment. Unemployed 103,000. There would have been excess jobs in Scotland Putting wages and conditions up. If it wasn’t for Tory bastards/unionists.

    Who replaced Thomson, (unelected) auld liar Tom Mason. The two jobs Tory the unionists change council meeting to accomodate. They should have to retire at 70. They make the retirement age for everyone. They should be obliged to do the same. Not unelected milking two posts telling lies in Holyrood. Lying and saying how much they support education. Aberdeen City over 100 teachers short. Cutting the allocated education, social care essential services budget.

    No drug/drink rehab. Methodone programmes that do not work. They kill people young. The unionist way. Willie Young’s mysteriously funded path. At least he is gone. The chancers left are just as bad. Willy Young wanted to put vulnerable folk in prison. The mysterious path sceptre should have been put away.

    Labour unionists (9 left) try to take credit for all the funding projects the Scottish Gov does. Building council houses. The Village Sports centre (Alex Salmond), The essential AWPR, the unionists blocked for forty years. The equivalent of £Billions that went south to fund Canary Wharf and Tilbury Docks. Centralising transport through London S/E causing traffic chaos. Thatcher secretly and illegally taking the Oil revenues south. Keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act.

    Yet ignorant folk in the NE are voting Tory/unionists after they have done everything to ruin the Oil & Gas sector. Losing thousands of jobs. The folk losing their jobs are voting Tory for the bastards who cost them their jobs. Brexit will hit the NE /Scotland the hardest but some glue pots are voting Tory/unionist. For the bastards that are causing all the mess. Others are seating on their hands not even voting. Like Turkeys waiting for Christmas. How daft is that. The unelected not nice and dim Tories riping off the public purse. Along with their cronies. Most of them should be in jail.

  130. ronnie anderson says:

    @ heedtracker Thanks the treatment is to lesson the effects of Bee stings of the immune system , she still has to avoid getting stung & carry a EpiPen at all times .

  131. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Petra –

    I’m wondering if maybe, just ‘maybe’ being part of this movement is healthy. Yeah, we all need time-out now and then, but in general terms I believe it’s beneficial. Keeps us sharp!


  132. Ken500 says:

    Investment bank – central bank.

    Chips falling into place.

    EU/ECB have invested in countries all over Europe helping them become Independence. East Germany, reunification. Ukraine, Poland Hungary etc. Supllied loans, support etc.

  133. Pacman says:

    One of the successes of the No campaign at the referendum campaign was to control the narrative on the economic aspects and focus them on jobs provided directly and indirectly by the British government.

    In doing this, they created a level of fear with the prospect of the withdrawal of these jobs in the event of independence and resultant harm to the Scottish economy that was far in excess as it’s real impact.

    In the case of the shipbuilding jobs, while it would have had a disastrous consequence on the local economy, and from the looks of things it will, how harmful would it have been to the Scottish economy overall?

    I don’t think it is right to make capital out of other peoples misery but the No campaign played mercilessly on peoples fears, whether it was their jobs or their pensions. When the next referendum comes, does a part of the Yes campaign focus on these broken promises made at the last one and use them to constantly attack the No campaign, even if it is negative in tone?

  134. sinky says:

    On BBC1 TV HIGNFY just now Kirsty Wark bigged up Corbyn over Universal Credit phone line @ 55p a minute but didn’t mention SNP MP Chris Stephens who raised the matter 12 months ago.

    You can possibly excuse London based commentators but not those who are regularly quoted as experts on Scottish politics

  135. Proud Cybernat says:

    I generally don’t. Change classic lyrics, however…

    YES today
    All our troubles can go far away,
    Voting NO will keep them here to stay,
    Oh I believe in
    yES today

  136. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 15:18,

    My thoughts entirely.

    Which is exactly why it’s a mistake for anyone to try to trumpet independence as some kind of Nirvana Experience, where a complete revolution is poised to launch the very second that “yes” is declared.

    We here all have our own high hopes(not always identical) that with independence, after some kind of temporary turbulence, life will improve in all sorts of ways, but those hopes will only come true (or not) by dint of time, democratic approval and the application of much hard graft.

    The main task is to convince enough people that only when we are free to choose for ourselves will we be able to control our own future. It may be still an unfamiliar and scary prospect for quite a few, but there are plenty of other small European countries who have demonstrably been able to do it, so why not us?

    The alternative now is the rabbit’s last stare at the oncoming headlights.

  137. heedtracker says:

    Petra says:
    20 October, 2017 at 8:49 pm
    @ yesindyref2 at 7:52pm …… “I need a break.”

    Sometimes you just need a pep talk. And some people say YES Scotland doesn’t need a great leader:D

  138. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Proud Cybernat (9.30) –


  139. call me dave says:

    Noticed a reference to this on WOS twitter.
    Won’t post Herald link.
    DOZENS of street marches across Scotland – including many run by the Orange Order – face being cancelled as the police acts on fresh legal advice that is likely to hike the cost of parades.

    Road closures for Orange marches, other political, religious or cultural parades and events, have in the past been arranged informally where necessary between the police and the relevant council.

    But Police Scotland has now been warned that officers lack the power to divert or hold up traffic without a court order – unless responding to an emergency.

    A paper, to be presented to the Scottish Police Authority’s (SPA) policing committee next week, warns that adhering to the new legal advice will inevitably entail costs for councils.

  140. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Seriously – should the BBC now have a 24/7 outlet which is totally dedicated to discussion of Brexit?

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. Brexit. Yoons are simply ‘old-school’ nationalists, we’re a bit different. 😉

    Breaking-Up Britain? The dynamics of “nationalism” and Brexit

    Changing Face of Nationalism?

    The referendum campaign has confirmed trends within Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalisms to look more favourably on the EU. Even Sinn Féin, historically a vocal critic of the EU, came out in support of Britain remaining – an important contribution given the party’s influence in Northern Ireland. Although arguing the need for EU reform, the party claimed that European membership protected Irish businesses and trade.

    This was an almost identical position to that of the SNP who, although similarly wary of EU imperfections and arguing the need for reform, stressed the benefits of membership for Scotland.[ii]

    A number of key points emerge from this.

    Firstly, membership of the EU has facilitated a very definite shift away from the economic protectionism that characterised nationalism during the first half of the twentieth century. The three parties identified above see a value in European co-operation and believe that it can enhance the economic viability of the political independence they seek….

    Old Nationalism and the politics of “Othering”

    Perhaps the most important aspect of the EU debate centred on the continuing growth, largely in England, of a politics resembling ‘old nationalism’. This was most clearly evident in the political campaigning of UKIP.

    Several key characteristics marked it out as such.

    Firstly, it was largely led by a political elite[iv] – primarily conservative in outlook – that sought to present itself as understanding the needs of “ordinary” people. In order to do so they sought to exploit the social and economic frustrations that have developed in areas of disadvantage. This elite, in order to mobilise popular support, presented themselves as an alternative to the “failed” establishment and expressed a desire to return the country to a ‘paradise lost’.[v]

    Perhaps the most crucial element of their politicking, however, was the processes of “Othering” that they engaged in.[vi] This took the form of presenting Others – EU institutions and “immigrants” – as a threat to the British way of life and essentially blamed these Others for all of the ills faced by society. Whilst UKIP claim to be ‘a non-racist and non-sectarian party’ and describe themselves as ‘civic’ nationalists[vii], the language they used and the messages they espoused were designed to build barriers between “us” and “them” – a classic characteristic of “old” nationalism.

  142. mike cassidy says:

    Herald ‘marches’ story archived.

    And another integrated immigrant in Scotland gets the postbrexit treatment from officialdom.

  143. CameronB Brodie says:

    Old-school is the new new-school apparently, more on Brexit.

    Defining and Challenging New Nationalism
    Brexit represented the formal consolidation of a new electoral coalition in the UK: middle-income conservatives as dotted across the green shires and provincial towns of England hitched to huge swathes of previously Labour voting working-class Britain. Much ink has been accordingly spilt trying to account for the different motivations and socio-economic circumstances that aligned to produce this new political pivot where, put proverbially, middle England’ meets the ‘left behind’. A speculation that has been renewed upon the declaration of a ‘Brexit’ themed General Election. Amid all the burgeoning and at times maddening commentary, the one apparent consensus among detractors and supporters alike is the observation that Brexit, and the feelings of resentment and powerlessness that fuelled it, was primarily framed by issues of ethnic difference and immigration.

    This is not to discount the various other themes that surfaced during the campaigns – claims pertaining to unaccountable bureaucracies, democratic deficits, the Euro’s crisis tendency, the drive towards centralised federalism, and even, from admittedly slightly quixotic leftist factions, the EU as an unapologetically neoliberal single-market body that undermines locally progressive politics. Yet, in spite of these no doubt significant criticisms, it is apparent that the assortment of more overtly xenophobic, race-baiting themes was ‘wot won the referendum’. Themes relating to immigration, refugees, Muslims, the spectre of Turkey, the Roma, the tyranny of anti-racist political correctness, and the ECHR sanctioned human rights restrictions that, among other excesses, supposedly impugn the integrity of British soldiers.

  144. Craig Macinnes says:

    Ian Brotherhood at 10.28pm

    “Should the BBC…”

    No. You will never get any informed discussion on the BBC about this. Not if the example just on Newsnight is anything to go by. They had a “representative” panel of voters from Sheffield on to discuss Brexit. Jesus H…never heard so much ignorance and stupidity in my life. Apparently it’s the EU’s fault that the talks are going nowhere because they are blackmailing poor old England for the money the yUK owes and they are just untrustworthy foreigners anyway…apparently good old England can look forward to a radiant future with no deal with these pesky foreigners anyway as “we are strong”.
    All this claptrap was allowed to go unchallenged by facts from Ewan Davies who indeed basically loaded the questions in such a way as to imply the EU was being unreasonable in asking for what the yUK had agreed to anyway! BBC propaganda mode at its best.
    It was cringeworthy stuff and quite frightening to hear the degree of stupidity and ignorance amongst those Sheffielders – little Englanders at their best. We have to escape this madhouse before we are completely screwed.

  145. Capella says:

    Noam Chomsky in “Requiem for the American Dream” spells out the methods used by the less-than-one-percent to disenfranchise the people ie. us.

    Puts independence movements in perspective. They undermine the power of the elite. 1 hr 10 mins

  146. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Craig Macinnes @ 23:17,

    Yes, it’s richly ironic, Craig, that the internet, with its (well-earned) reputation for promoting a lot of totally bonkers views on the subject, nevertheless thanks to its wide spectrum of views, manages to be more truly representative (no quotes needed) of public opinion than the average BBC studio audience.

    So much for the “advantages” of media fixed moderated by the so-called “pros”.

  147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 23:58,

    (You must include the “www.” prefix but NOT any of the stuff before that in order to properly embed youtube links here.)

  148. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    That might be an EU address Robert, so different rules apply, I think. 😉

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not in the least surprised by the lack of Brexit analysis by the BBC in Scotland.

    IMHO, Scottish nationalism is actually moderate patriotism. British nationalism is more of an imperialist projection of English nationalism. Not a healthy disposition for moderate Scots to adopt, frankly. More on Brexit.

    Racism, Crisis, Brexit


    This article offers a conjunctural analysis of the financial and political crisis within which Brexit occurred with a specific attentiveness to race and racism. Brexit and its aftermath have been overdetermined by racism, including racist violence. We suggest that the Leave campaign secured its victory by bringing together two contradictory but inter-locking visions. The first comprises an imperial longing to restore Britain’s place in the world as primus inter pares that occludes any coming to terms with the corrosive legacies of colonial conquest and racist subjugation. The second takes the form of an insular, Powellite narrative of island retreat from a “globalizing” world, one that is no longer recognizably “British”. Further, the article argues that an invisible driver of the Brexit vote and its racist aftermath has been a politicization of Englishness. We conclude by outlining some resources of hope that could potentially help to negotiate the current emergency.

  150. t42 says:

    Listening to state controlled propaganda, they are saying 1.5 trillian debt isnt anything to worry our pretty little heads about. Oh, they’re worried alright.

  151. Cactus says:

    Love our Scotland ~

    and fuck you the Daily fuckin’ Record.

    Let’s get outraged together.

    You are banished.

    Avec love.



  152. Alex Clark says:

    After a great deal of thought I’ve came to the conclusion that the MSM are preventing Scotland from gaining it’s Independence.

    I know, it’s not rocket science is it to make that conclusion.

  153. Alex Clark says:

    So in that case it’s up to YOU.

    Yes YOU and ME all that believe in Independence. It becomes our job to expose the lies and direct people to sites such as Wings.

    You know something I stopped wearing my Yes badge after the referendum, maybe I was embarrassed or ashamed. For the last three months I’ve worn one every day. It’s funny people notice but no comments.

    Time to get noticed again, if like me you stopped wearing them I implore you to get them back on. The more visible we are the stronger we become.

    If you support Independence then don’t be shy about showing it.

  154. Cactus says:

    Lookin’ out for ye in the mornin Mr. Ra-tat-@Cairnstoon ~

    Master John Bulls broad shoulders aint so broad now.

    Scotland needs Scotland.

    Love yer maw!

  155. Petra says:

    Just checking in! I know I should go onto O/T, but I’m going to break the rules. OMG what will Stu have to say?! I’ll be sorry tomorrow no doubt. Just loving it. Holding an SNP party. Non better. The Scots the best ever party go-ers in the Whole Wide World. Yeah we are.

    So here we go. A real OLDY, but absolutely brilliant. Get your butts moving folks.

    And then again if you are suffering in any way at all you may relate to this song. If you do we’ll hold you, hug you, we’ll help you and we’ll love you if you come to Scotland.

    We Scots know all about suffering. An even older … oldy.

  156. Cactus says:

    And love yer da.


  157. Cactus says:

    Evening Petra, sames goes for me, off topic it should be, mild apologies to peoples that turn off at swearishyish words, I have only ever sworn the C word on here in Italiano, check that thing out.

    Starts with a P…!

    The Sopranos.


  158. Petra says:

    Following on from my last post. If anyone has lost the will to live please remember that we Scots are fighting, tooth and nail, to make things better for people like you. Don’t give up. Don’t ever think of giving up. We are getting there and you can help us by voting for an Independent Scotland in the very near future. You help us and we’ll help you X

  159. Alex Clark says:


    I didn’t know you could boogie LOL.

    That first one was good and puts you right in the mood :). Hank Williams well not so good, too depressing but hey, always tomorrow eh.

  160. Az says:

    @ Cactus

    You ROCK 😉

    Your positivity is a blessing to us all.

  161. Alex Clark says:


    Yes it is 🙂

  162. Petra says:

    God I’m worried now. Big argument has taken place (at my party). If anyone is truly suffering please phone the Samaritans.

    Samaritans Scotland
    24 Canning Street
    Edinburgh EH3 8EG

    0131 556 7058 – Please note that we cannot provide emotional support from this office. Please call 116 123 to speak to Samaritans.

  163. Az says:

    @ Alex Clark

    Hey Alex, I see you comment but I’ve never spoken to you. You’re a good guy with whom I’m pretty sure I always agree. Onwards and upeards. I was totally depressed 24 hours ago, stemming form some disappointing real-life interaction with a bona-fide real life Yoon.

    It’s amazing how quickly their faces can contort into a look of rage/psychopathy when you even steer gently towards the semblance of a vague idea that maybe, just possibly, Scotland would be better doing stuff for itself.

    Then they don’t get it when you exert the truth – it would also be better and much healthier for England as well. As a frequent visitor to the midlands and S Yorks, that’s my simple but true observation. They’ve lost themselves; they don’t even know who they are.

    Sorry that’s a bit random – alcohol consumed and weird converations at pub with nice guy who is basically an instinctive yoon, but definitely not beyond saving. He’s just another that will turn when the reality of the Engxit madness strikes repeatedly upon the blades of the fan. Yeah so I’m a wee bit tipsy 😀

    All good in da hood.

  164. Alex Clark says:


    Hey listen, it will all blow over and by tomorrow will be forgotten about. I want to see you back on here in in the morning commenting on Cairns Toon.

    Every problem can be sorted and will be. Take care of your guests and be calm then try and get a good sleep. I definately want to see a post from you on Cairnstoon tomorrow. Your OK I doubt I’ll be out of bed before 10:00 so you can have a lie in.

    So just relax, ignore the fight and have a good kip. That would be my advice.

  165. Alex Clark says:


    I’m off for a kip myself now, I should have added earlier how much I have appreciated your posts on Wings especially the recent one about your fight against discrimination.

    Your a real warrior and a Winger 🙂

  166. Cactus says:

    Don’t worry.

    Be happy.

    All are good.



  167. Petra says:

    @ Alex Clark says at 2:33 am .. ”Petra I didn’t know you could boogie LOL. That first one was good and puts you right in the mood :). Hank Williams well not so good, too depressing but hey, always tomorrow eh.”

    Alex I CAN do and love boogieing .. see me go .. dancing in Scottish terms for hours on end … non stop. You, they, don’t know me at all.

    Not Hank Williams but Johny Tillotson telling the heartbreaking story of people, someone, at the the very end of their tether. As I (we) boogie people like them are never far fom my mind.

    ”Too depressing but hey, always tomorrow eh.”

    Too depressing? That’s the absolute reality for thousands of people living and working in Scotland, imo. There might not be a tomorow for them, Alex, so let’s just do what we can (every last one of us … Scots) right now. Remind them that their lives will improve in an Independent Scotland. We REALLY care for them. Hang on in there folks. We’re coming.

  168. Cactus says:

    Cheers to the beautiful and bonnie People of Scotland ~

    Freedom is very soon.

    SO much love, but!


    For ur obvious anti-Scottish agenda.

    Keepin’ it real.

    Is it just YOU?

    Purple Rain is just started playin’

  169. Cactus says:


    Eat that up good people.

    Eat it up good.

    Eat it up now.



  170. David Caledonia says:

    Just a little observation, i have noticed that some people are posting what to me looks like the chapter of a book, why do people do this, i allready know about what you are writing about so i do not need to read it all over again
    In fact, i actually scroll by if its to long, there is a great saying in advertising, you have got to grab attention in the first 10 seconds, that’s why most good ads start with a well known piece of music to grab our attention
    Anyway, i can’t be bothered to even look at long winded posts, no point in preaching to the allready converted like me, I just scroll by if its too long, short and sweet, short and sweet !

  171. Cactus says:

    Guid marnin’ yesindyref2 ~

    Can ye do a smiley X?

    & n b s p 🙂

  172. David Caledonia says:

    And while i am having a bit of a rant, what’s all this music stuff being posted, i can and do tune into youtube for the music, i am more of a stones fan myself, i like a little flash now and again , i find it starts me up nicely to go and chase some wild horses…. lol

  173. Cactus says:

    @ the Daily Record ~

    SO what do you print now?

  174. Cactus says:

    Do you even work print on a Saturday, sans le Daily Record.

    I dunno, ain’t bot a paper in so long, so long.

    Trash paper posh-pish.

    Justifiably SO!

  175. Ghillie says:

    Hey there Cactus 🙂 x

    Hey there David Caledonia =)

    Hear what you are saying – some folk are great at the ‘short and sweet’ but that doesn’t allow for the talents and wisdom of some of our posters.

    DO skip on by if you haven’t time or inclination for the fuller posts or the more indepth contributions but mibee when in the right mood DO pop back and have a read.

    I always learn something new on here every day =)

  176. Cactus says:

    Lookin forward tae seeing Cairnstoon Hamish in the pixels.

    Ah bet ye the Rev’s got it of ra now.

    Think of a headline.

  177. Cactus says:

    Hey Ghillie ~






  178. Blair McDougall, why doesn’t he shut the fuck up.
    Why doesn’t he pop down to Govan and assure the workers that New Labour the Red Tory variety, of Unionism, is Better than those nasty Blue Tories.
    I suspect that he’d get a sore face if he went anywhere near the place.

    Yet there he is on twitter talking shite about Scots having an equal vote with the English in his corrupt dying little fucking UK.
    No we don’t, you Phat Phuk.
    Give me men about me who are fat, men who sleep o’ nights?
    He is a liar, and political failure.
    Blair Mc Dougall, crawl back down the hole where failed Unionists fester and die.
    One of my neighbours, a highly skilled engineer, is now facing a very uncertain future because of your promises and lies.
    Just fuck off.

  179. Macart says:


    Don’t know if it’s said often enough, but you always bring the right kind of lift and the right kind of smile. 🙂

  180. Dorothy Devine says:

    Macart , and Cactus never sleeps – a kind of insomniac optimism which I admire and enjoy muchly!

  181. Nana says:

    We’re holding an inquiry into #ImmigrationScotland, looking at how UK policy meets Scotland’s needs. Details here:

    A Suspected Network Of 13,000 Twitter Bots Pumped Out

    Emmanuel Macron accuses Brexiters of bluffing over no-deal divorce

    Theresa May Has 8 Weeks To Prevent The Brexit Talks Collapsing Without A Deal

  182. Nana says:

    What planet is she on?

    Fabian Zuleeg is Chief Executive and Chief Economist at the European Policy Centre (EPC)
    Better safe than sorry: Time to prepare for a ‘no deal scenario’

    Donald Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker speak about Brexit at the EU’s summit – watch live

  183. Nana says:

    Pres. @JunckerEU @EP_President & @eucopresident are in Spain to receive, on behalf of EU, the Concordia

    Video: Tusk’s speech on censorship, freedom of speech, dialogue in front of King of Spain and Rajoy. Priceless


  184. gus1940 says:


    Last night I watched the Landward Special ‘Who Will Pick The Fruit’

    What a lovely program showing the hard working pickers from all over Europe who seem to love our country.

    They all seem to be happy in their work and have excellent relationships with their Employers.

    Significantly there was no sign whatsoever of the hateful gangmasters who seem to rule the roost south of the border when it comes to migrant agricultural workers.

    Of course the dark cloud on the horizon is the impending Brexit disaster which could result in those hardworking young people being kicked out of the country by the idiots at WM and the near certainty that one of Scotland’s greatest business successes will be destroyed.

    Unfortunately there were some stories of xenophobic attacks from locals – there are racist nut cases everywhere – but in general the workers were happy with their lot, seemed to love Scotland and were a credit to their countries of origin.

    I also watched the program about A&B Council which was v. interesting.

    Were any of the 2 progs networked? If not they should have been in particular the Landward one.

  185. Ghillie says:

    Nana @ 7.56 am 🙂

    Donald Tusk’s speech in front of Spain’s maj, president and dignitaries was BEYOND priceless!

    How subtly and quietly done =)

    Thank you Mr Tusk 🙂

  186. Capella says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland – I watched Requiem for the American Dream on Netflix.
    The link to the Youtube version was from my tablet and didn’t have the www bit so I removed the prefix and hoped for the best!
    I see today that Youtube is charging £3.50 to watch it. I thought it an excellent analysis of the current situation we all find ourselves in. He lists 10 methods used by the less-than-one-percent to retain their wealth and power.
    Should be free to view for everybody!

    Trailer here:

  187. Clydebuilt says:

    “an Appology to the Daily Record” . . . . . Did the Daily Record apologise for the Vow!

  188. stu mac says:

    @David Caledonia says:
    21 October, 2017 at 4:20 am
    Just a little observation,

    I agree. While some occasional long posts are OK some take up several screenfuls of space. Some are just long winded but there are posts that are dense with information. A better thing would be for the poster to put his post up on his own site and post a link (plus brief highlights?) here. We need as many good pro-Indy sites as possible so I’m not being facetious here. Also I would try to read through a really big post if it was the main post of a site whereas comments BTL will often be skipped if too long.

  189. Ghillie says:

    Gus 1940 @ 8.15 am

    VERY interseting highlight you make of the terrible Brexit future facing our very hard working fruit pickers who hail from all parts of Europe and how much Scotland will miss their being here doing this essential work and being a much loved addition to our society.

    Buisnesses will suffer.

    I wonder. Baxters, producers of many fine products such as jams and chutneys and soups, all using Scottish fruit and vegetables, were notoriously against Scottish Independence.

    I wonder if the owners of Baxters, to name but one company, might now see Scottish Independence in a more favourable light?

  190. Robert Peffers says:

    @Alex Clark says: 21 October, 2017 at 1:51 am:So in that case

    “If you support Independence then don’t be shy about showing it.”

    My cap YES badges were never removed. My vehicle still has its window stickers as has my cottage front window.

    I am often stopped in the street by strangers. The public do indeed notice – I’m very glad to say.

  191. Capn Andy says:

    Gus 1940 @ 8.15 am
    Yes. Watched that as well. Have been making the same comments to folk. It’s a different culture up here and long may it stay that way. No gang-masters. Everybody treated like human beings.

  192. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. England’s search for identity, I wish them all the best.

    Englishness as a standalone identity has always struggled to articulate itself. During the 20th century it was largely subsumed into Britishness. England’s cultural behemoths, from The Beatles to the Sex Pistols, emerged draped in Union Jacks rather than St George’s flags. It was Britpop and Madchester; never “the English Invasion”. Aside from a tournament once every two years, when the four nations split up to experience their own footballing disappointments, English people tend to identify themselves locally – as Cornish or Scouse, say – instead of under any kind of shared nationhood.

    Britishness, meanwhile, is going from strength to strength. In recent years it’s been reborn as a brand – the cult of Keep Calm and Carry On sold to shy-Tory 20-somethings who think the Queen is “cute”. Bolstered by the 2012 Olympics, this is a cuddly, meme-friendly national identity of Very British Problems and “21 Things British People Miss When They Move To America”. This deeply privileged universe of Marmite and umbrellas has allowed Britishness a place in the new millennium, repositioning the Union Jack as a symbol of complaining about weather rather than the banner of colonisation and genocide.

  193. Petra says:

    @ Nana at 7:56am ……… “Tusk’s speech.”

    Thanks for the links Nana in particular Tusk’s speech. Brilliant or what? Sending out a clear message to Rajoy / the King and of course the people of Catalonia.

    And his comment. “I deeply believe that truth is invincible.” We do too. However it’s something for the MSM in the UK, in particular Scotland, to ponder on.

    On a personal note I deeply believe that it’s not a good idea to visit Wings when you’ve had one too many, lol. So apologies for not sticking to posting in O/T earlier this morning, better still not posting at all. Lesson learned. Don’t mix partying it up with posting online.

  194. Rock says:


    “Don’t need a degree to scope a fear mongering reprobate btl like you Rock.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, you needed a degree to learn using inverted commas for quotes.

  195. jk.scobie says:

    Ghillie….Baxters will probably outsource to “wherever” is cheapest as long as it is “competative

  196. Rock says:

    stu mac,

    “A better thing would be for the poster to put his post up on his own site and post a link (plus brief highlights?)”

    The likes of Robert Peffers and Petra should really follow this advice.

    But then they think this is their own site.

  197. jk.scobie says:

    Bye the Bye, years ago I used to transport fruit to Germany to make jam, which, in turn they would sell back to us as ” produced in the UK . bit of a misnomer, but probably another lie from you know who

  198. David says:

    If the Daily Record was vinyl that story would be one of those cool hidden tracks that its unionist fans would have to find for themselves.

  199. stewart fae stoney says:

    well done rev you ate the humble pie and admitted your mistake for all to see, just wish the media and newspapers would follow suit and do the same, but unfortunately there is more chance of the mighty Brechin City winning the champions league

  200. Cactus says:

    An apology to the Daily Record…

    Ahhhhh, haha, ha, fuck you.


    It’s Saturday night.

    Let’s remain “outraged together”

    It’s better than being better.

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